Expect a massive response.
no excuse! unprovoked! disgusting!
i just hope we have something left to help out israel with. between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 07, 2023, 09:13:56 AM
no excuse! unprovoked! disgusting!
i just hope we have something left to help out israel with. between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.
America is truly a terrifying place.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 08:44:38 AM
Expect a massive response.
I think so too and good. And US and all our allies should stand solidly behind Israel on that response. This was a brazen attack by Hamas where civilians were targeted.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 07, 2023, 09:13:56 AM
no excuse! unprovoked! disgusting!
i just hope we have something left to help out israel with. between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.
1 out of 10
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on October 07, 2023, 09:17:23 AM
America is truly a terrifying place.
And broke. We gave all our money to Ukraine. People forget Russia was our ally in WWII.
This was gonna happen eventually.
Israel's actions have clearly pushed Palestinians to the brink.
Very sad.
The US needs to walk away, at least militarily/financial backing, from the entire Middle East
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 07, 2023, 09:40:35 AM
This was gonna happen eventually.
Israel's actions have clearly pushed Palestinians to the brink.
Very sad.
Colossal failure by Netanyahu.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 07, 2023, 09:18:04 AM
I think so too and good. And US and all our allies should stand solidly behind Israel on that response. This was a brazen attack by Hamas where civilians were targeted.
Hutch,
Do not be surprised if Israel is also attacked by Hezbollah to the North. The Western and World response to this will be really interesting because I could see Israel completely taking over Gaza and then obliterating Iranian nuclear sites.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 08:44:38 AM
Expect a massive response.
Live reporting
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/7/israel-palestine-escalation-live-news-barrage-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 07, 2023, 09:40:35 AM
This was gonna happen eventually.
Israel's actions have clearly pushed Palestinians to the brink.
Very sad.
The US needs to walk away, at least militarily/financial backing, from the entire Middle East
Uh......wrong. Unless you're content with Iran getting a nuclear weapon and wiping Israel off the map.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 09:47:15 AM
Uh......wrong. Unless you're content with Iran getting a nuclear weapon and wiping Israel off the map.
America's diplomatic history in the Middle East has been one failure after another through all administrations.
Abandoning the Middle East is impossible but the idea America can solve the issues in the Middle East is folly. Religion is an unbeatable force when it comes to human suffering
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 09:47:15 AM
Uh......wrong. Unless you're content with Iran getting a nuclear weapon and wiping Israel off the map.
Well, time to dust off that Iran nuclear agreement then eh?
Do you expect the US to be the world's police forever?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 07, 2023, 09:13:56 AM
no excuse! unprovoked! disgusting!
i just hope we have something left to help out israel with. between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.
We've given Israel only about $20 billion the past 5 years.
Hopefully they can squeak by.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 07, 2023, 09:55:18 AM
America's diplomatic history in the Middle East has been one failure after another through all administrations.
Abandoning the Middle East is impossible but the idea America can solve the issues in the Middle East is folly. Religion is an unbeatable force when it comes to human suffering
The was a coordinated attack essentially from Iran designed to bring the Middle East into total chaos, and it was absolutely gruesome in nature. Iran 2nd biggest enemy is the United States. If you think this has no impact on us you're sorely mistaken nor is it really a "religious war".
Quote from: Pakuni on October 07, 2023, 10:01:25 AM
We've given Israel only about $20 billion thr past 5 years.
Hopefully they can squeak by.
And we gave Iran 6B a few weeks ago.
This will be over quickly. But it did disturb Muggsy's morning coffee.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:02:52 AM
And we gave Iran 6B a few weeks ago.
No, we didn't.
#lies #fakenews
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 07, 2023, 10:04:21 AM
This will be over quickly. But it did disturb Muggsy's morning coffee.
What will be over quickly?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:02:14 AM
The was a coordinated attack essentially from Iran designed to bring the Middle East into total chaos, and it was absolutely gruesome in nature. Iran 2nd biggest enemy is the United States. If you think this has no impact on us you're sorely mistaken nor is it really a "religious war".
Where did I say it didn't have an impact on us? I said our diplomatic activities have been mostly wrong through all administrations.
And again, it's all based in religion, the world's greatest killer. Fighting over holy sites and land. For centuries.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:05:58 AM
What will be over quickly?
There's never "peace" in the middle east. Only different levels of tension. Israel will squash this quickly, back to the normal levels of tension. Gaza will always be in dispute. The fact that many there have bomb shelters is really all you need to know.
Should we cut off aid to Israel? Democracy-even Israeli democracy - is so passé.
Quote from: Jockey on October 07, 2023, 10:11:26 AM
Should we cut off aid to Israel? Democracy-even Israeli democracy - is so passé.
Nah. Each political party needs to appeal to that voting bloc.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 07, 2023, 10:10:30 AM
There's never "peace" in the middle east. Only different levels of tension. Israel will squash this quickly, back to the normal levels of tension. Gaza will always be in dispute. The fact that many there have bomb shelters is really all you need to know.
Rocky,
I think this could take some time and that this is a much different military operation than we've seen from Israel in the past. Unless they use hard power but since the world is vehemently antisemitic the optics would be really bad. All you need to know is Qatar condemned Israel. This is a s-show. And if we think losing Israel as our only democratic partner in the region is a prudent decision we better think again.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:18:59 AM
I think this could take some time and that this is a much different military operation than we've seen from Israel in the past. Unless they use hard power but since the world is vehemently antisemitic the optics would be really bad. All you need to know is Qatar condemned Israel. This is a s-show. And if we think losing Israel as our only democratic partner in the region is a prudent decision we better think again.
ok
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:02:14 AM
The was a coordinated attack essentially from Iran designed to bring the Middle East into total chaos, and it was absolutely gruesome in nature. Iran 2nd biggest enemy is the United States. If you think this has no impact on us you're sorely mistaken nor is it really a "religious war".
Israel has never done anything gruesome to the Palestinians?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:18:59 AM
Rocky,
I think this could take some time and that this is a much different military operation than we've seen from Israel in the past. Unless they use hard power but since the world is vehemently antisemitic the optics would be really bad. All you need to know is Qatar condemned Israel. This is a s-show. And if we think losing Israel as our only democratic partner in the region is a prudent decision we better think again.
What????
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 07, 2023, 10:23:55 AM
What????
There is a lot of antisemitism in this world. He's not wrong about that. Our country is rife with it, across all political spectrums.
We pay lip service to fighting it in my opinion and I'm someone who doesn't support Israeli actions largely when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 07, 2023, 10:06:21 AM
Where did I say it didn't have an impact on us? I said our diplomatic activities have been mostly wrong through all administrations.
And again, it's all based in religion, the world's greatest killer. Fighting over holy sites and land. For centuries.
The religious component of the conflict is that Hamas/Iran want to wipe Israel off the map. We could have a lengthy discussion about the history of the Palestinians and Jews in that region since the Balfour Declaration in 1917 if you want? The British fked up that partition pledge and it led to a colossal mess. But there are many things that happened since, under a number of countries and governments, where the only constant has been Palestinians being used as pawns.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 07, 2023, 10:23:55 AM
What????
If any other country was attacked in this manner the worldwide response would be much different.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:32:26 AM
The religious component of the conflict is that Hamas/Iran want to wipe Israel off the map. We could have a lengthy discussion about the history of the Palestinians and Jews in that region since the Balfour Declaration in 1917 if you want? The British fked up that partition pledge and it led to a colossal mess. But there are many things that happened since, under a number of countries and governments, where the only constant has been Palestinians being used as pawns.
Correct, religion kills with unrelenting fury. It's the greatest plague on humanity
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:34:38 AM
If any other country was attacked in this manner the worldwide response would be much different.
Turkey routinely attacks Syria. No response.
Azerbaijan has been attacking and taking territory from Armenia. No response.
Israel in the last year has made unilateral attacks on Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, and it is just accepted.
Heck, last year Israel murdered a journalist, and no one cared.
Conflicts are going on around the world. No one cares unless it threatens western interests. Everyone else gets a pass.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2023, 10:43:01 AM
Turkey routinely attacks Syria. No response.
Azerbaijan has been attacking and taking territory from Armenia. No response.
Israel in the last year has made unilateral attacks on Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, and it is just accepted.
Heck, last year Israel murdered a journalist, and no one cared.
Conflicts are going on around the world. No one cares unless it threatens western interests. Everyone else gets a pass.
This.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:18:59 AM
Rocky,
I think this could take some time and that this is a much different military operation than we've seen from Israel in the past. Unless they use hard power but since the world is vehemently antisemitic the optics would be really bad. All you need to know is Qatar condemned Israel. This is a s-show. And if we think losing Israel as our only democratic partner in the region is a prudent decision we better think again.
This is all a response to Saudi Arabia and Israel moving closer to one another. And the battle here isn't one of religion, but one of the balance of power in the Mideast between Iran (and its ally Qatar) and SA.
Iran is hoping that Israel's response will make it politically difficult for SA to make peace with Israel.
And the Palestinians will be the ones who suffer.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 07, 2023, 10:23:30 AM
Israel has never done anything gruesome to the Palestinians?
Bothsiderism in response to an attack by a terrorist organization specifically targeting, including kidnapping, civilians isn't a great look.
Israeli soldiers have done some awful things and the Israeli government should be criticized for how they've handled (or not handled) those crimes. But to pretend the goals and tactics/strategies of Hamas/Hezbollah and the IDF are at all similar or mirrors of each other is just ignorant.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 07, 2023, 11:08:47 AM
Bothsiderism in response to an attack by a terrorist organization specifically targeting, including kidnapping, civilians isn't a great look.
Israeli soldiers have done some awful things and the Israeli government should be criticized for how they've handled (or not handled) those crimes. But to pretend the goals and tactics/strategies of Hamas/Hezbollah and the IDF are at all similar or mirrors of each other is just ignorant.
What is being left out of this a lot by media. Is armed far-right Israeli's have raided the Al-Aqsa mosque numerous times this year, including government officials. Despite Arab outcry, the Israeli government did nothing. Right before this most recent uprising, the Israeli military protected Jewish settlers (who have been calling for the destruction of the mosque) entering the mosque compound.
Those actions were known to be raising tensions, it was warned that continued violation of the mosque compound would not go without a response.
The end results (bombing, incursions, kidnappings) are uncalled for, but anyone could see that a new uprising was coming, and individuals kept pushing the buttons to drive it to conflict.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 10:51:16 AM
This is all a response to Saudi Arabia and Israel moving closer to one another. And the battle here isn't one of religion, but one of the balance of power in the Mideast between Iran (and its ally Qatar) and SA.
Iran is hoping that Israel's response will make it politically difficult for SA to make peace with Israel.
And the Palestinians will be the ones who suffer.
Correct.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 07, 2023, 11:08:47 AM
Bothsiderism in response to an attack by a terrorist organization specifically targeting, including kidnapping, civilians isn't a great look.
Israeli soldiers have done some awful things and the Israeli government should be criticized for how they've handled (or not handled) those crimes. But to pretend the goals and tactics/strategies of Hamas/Hezbollah and the IDF are at all similar or mirrors of each other is just ignorant.
Just trying to get muggsy to see, or least engage with, the idea that Israel has done some pretty gross stuff.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2023, 10:43:01 AM
Turkey routinely attacks Syria. No response.
Azerbaijan has been attacking and taking territory from Armenia. No response.
Israel in the last year has made unilateral attacks on Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, and it is just accepted.
Heck, last year Israel murdered a journalist, and no one cared.
Conflicts are going on around the world. No one cares unless it threatens western interests. Everyone else gets a pass.
Well said.
Muggsy head in the sand.
The Buffoon urges Israel to use "restraint" in its response. What? This after gifting Iran $6 billion for "humanitarian purposes" and loosening oil sales, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 07, 2023, 11:38:43 AM
The Buffoon urges Israel to use "restraint" in its response. What? This after gifting Iran $6 billion for "humanitarian purposes" and loosening oil sales, hey?
Here's the White House official statement. Try not to be a brainless partisan hack for once.
"This morning, I spoke with Prime Minister Netanyahu about the horrific and ongoing attacks in Israel. The United States unequivocally condemns this appalling assault against Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza, and I made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that we stand ready to offer all appropriate means of support to the Government and people of Israel. Terrorism is never justified. Israel has a right to defend itself and its people. The United States warns against any other party hostile to Israel seeking advantage in this situation. My Administration's support for Israel's security is rock solid and unwavering."
Anyway, this is the exact reason Hamas attacked.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/04/saudi-mega-deal-biden-israel-normalization-palestinian-talks
"Senior Biden advisers quietly visited Saudi Arabia last week to continue talks on a potential mega-deal that could include a peace agreement between the kingdom and Israel, two sources with direct knowledge of the issue told Axios."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 11:56:16 AM
Here's the White House official statement. Try not to be a brainless partisan hack for once.
"This morning, I spoke with Prime Minister Netanyahu about the horrific and ongoing attacks in Israel. The United States unequivocally condemns this appalling assault against Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza, and I made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that we stand ready to offer all appropriate means of support to the Government and people of Israel. Terrorism is never justified. Israel has a right to defend itself and its people. The United States warns against any other party hostile to Israel seeking advantage in this situation. My Administration's support for Israel's security is rock solid and unwavering."
Anyway, this is the exact reason Hamas attacked.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/04/saudi-mega-deal-biden-israel-normalization-palestinian-talks
"Senior Biden advisers quietly visited Saudi Arabia last week to continue talks on a potential mega-deal that could include a peace agreement between the kingdom and Israel, two sources with direct knowledge of the issue told Axios."
Fox News hadn't reported that official response yet but have had a lot of Republican congress members on in the meantime
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 07, 2023, 12:02:20 PM
Fox News hadn't reported that official response yet but have had a lot of Republican congress members on in the meantime
Maybe you shouldn't just watch Fox News. Just a thought.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 07, 2023, 11:38:43 AM
The Buffoon urges Israel to use "restraint" in its response. What? This after gifting Iran $6 billion for "humanitarian purposes" and loosening oil sales, hey?
Do you ever post anything with even a speck of truth in it?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 11:56:16 AM
Here's the White House official statement. Try not to be a brainless partisan hack for once.
"This morning, I spoke with Prime Minister Netanyahu about the horrific and ongoing attacks in Israel. The United States unequivocally condemns this appalling assault against Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza, and I made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that we stand ready to offer all appropriate means of support to the Government and people of Israel. Terrorism is never justified. Israel has a right to defend itself and its people. The United States warns against any other party hostile to Israel seeking advantage in this situation. My Administration's support for Israel's security is rock solid and unwavering."
Anyway, this is the exact reason Hamas attacked.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/04/saudi-mega-deal-biden-israel-normalization-palestinian-talks
"Senior Biden advisers quietly visited Saudi Arabia last week to continue talks on a potential mega-deal that could include a peace agreement between the kingdom and Israel, two sources with direct knowledge of the issue told Axios."
Good post.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 07, 2023, 12:02:20 PM
Fox News hadn't reported that official response yet but have had a lot of Republican congress members on in the meantime
Are they proposing cutting all aid to Israel?
Fluffy BM, the Buffoon's original response included the call for Israel to show "restraint" in its response. That has now been deleted.
As for being a "partisan hack," that term applies to nearly every poster on Scoop, aina?
Here's what is being reported,
Shamefully, the Biden administration's first instinct in responding to this unfolding atrocity was to call for Israeli restraint, as innocent Israelis were being kidnapped, murdered, and paraded through the streets. It was a statement so disastrously wrongheaded that the office that issued it was forced to delete it.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on October 07, 2023, 12:05:08 PM
Maybe you shouldn't just watch Fox News. Just a thought.
I've been watching Fox, CNN and the BBC report on this
Quote from: Jockey on October 07, 2023, 12:06:37 PM
Are they proposing cutting all aid to Israel?
No, they need the campaign donations.
Lots of blame on Iran and rightfully so. Not mad at Iran for supporting Russia, though.
Enes Kanter Freedom's response,
I've been closely monitoring what's going on in the Middle East," Kanter Freedom said. "I've come across numerous messages, and I believe that it's very important to address the situation in Israel with clarity. What is happening there is undeniably barbaric, acts of terrorism that cannot be softened with 'buts' or additional justifications.
"The loss of innocent lives can never be justified by any means. It's crucial to emphasize that these events have nothing to do with Islam. In fact, Islam teaches that taking the life of one innocent person is equal to killing entire humanity. We have to condemn these actions and stand in solidarity with the innocent people in Israel. Many of my Palestinian friends are not supporting Hamas, each act of Hamas terrorism; taking away hopes for peace in the region."
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 07, 2023, 12:06:41 PM
Fluffy BM, the Buffoon's original response included the call for Israel to show "restraint" in its response. That has now been deleted.
As for being a "partisan hack," that term applies to nearly every poster on Scoop, aina?
I was mostly focusing on the "brainless" part in your case.
Anyway, the US Office of Palestinian Affairs tweeted something about restraint, which was soon deleted. Probably because it WASN'T the official response. But of course, all conservative media jumps on it. And you throw it up like they want you to because partisanship is always goal #1.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 07, 2023, 12:13:45 PM
Enes Kanter Freedom's response,
I've been closely monitoring what's going on in the Middle East," Kanter Freedom said. "I've come across numerous messages, and I believe that it's very important to address the situation in Israel with clarity. What is happening there is undeniably barbaric, acts of terrorism that cannot be softened with 'buts' or additional justifications.
"The loss of innocent lives can never be justified by any means. It's crucial to emphasize that these events have nothing to do with Islam. In fact, Islam teaches that taking the life of one innocent person is equal to killing entire humanity. We have to condemn these actions and stand in solidarity with the innocent people in Israel. Many of my Palestinian friends are not supporting Hamas, each act of Hamas terrorism; taking away hopes for peace in the region."
He should shut up and dribble and take a look at China
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 07, 2023, 09:13:56 AM
no excuse! unprovoked! disgusting!
i just hope we have something left to help out israel with. between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.
BTW, I will point out that Iran's biggest ally right now is Russia. So maybe supporting Ukraine is important.
I see the "Blame America" crowd has surfaced.
Love it or leave it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 12:22:37 PM
BTW, I will point out that Iran's biggest ally right now is Russia. So maybe supporting Ukraine is important.
Real brain teaser right now
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 07, 2023, 12:06:41 PM
Fluffy BM, the Buffoon's original response included the call for Israel to show "restraint" in its response. That has now been deleted.
As for being a "partisan hack," that term applies to nearly every poster on Scoop, aina?
Here's what is being reported,
Shamefully, the Biden administration's first instinct in responding to this unfolding atrocity was to call for Israeli restraint, as innocent Israelis were being kidnapped, murdered, and paraded through the streets. It was a statement so disastrously wrongheaded that the office that issued it was forced to delete it.
It is not surprising that people with nothing to lose will resort to terrible things. My heart aches for the innocent civilians in this conflict who are paying the price.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 07, 2023, 12:41:27 PM
It is not surprising that people with nothing to lose will resort to terrible things. My heart aches for the innocent civilians in this conflict who are paying the price.
This has nothing to do with people with nothing to lose. It has to do with Iran causing chaos.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 12:45:48 PM
This has nothing to do with people with nothing to lose. It has to do with Iran causing chaos.
Teal?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 12:15:14 PM
Anyway, the US Office of Palestinian Affairs tweeted something about restraint, which was soon deleted. Probably because it WASN'T the official response. But of course, all conservative media jumps on it. And you throw it up like they want you to because partisanship is always goal #1.
Yeap. No one was ever going to deny that Israel has the right and responsibility to repel and defend against a horrible terrorist attack on its civilians.
FWIW the tally so far: 200 Israelis killed and 985 injured; 232 Palestinians killed and 1,697 injured. What % of Palestinian casualities are realistically tied to Hamas? Direct quote from Israeli Defense Force top official: "Hamas has opened the gates of hell into the Gaza Strip." Israel is absolutely in the process of killing more civilians than Hamas, which will in turn continue the cycle of radicalization.
Iran's political leadership will get the chaos it is hoping for, and the West's hamfisted response will continue to strengthen the Iranian political establishment by conflating the desires of the Iranian people with its government. If the West didn't take the bait literally every time the Iranian leadership riles them up, I think there is a real likelihood we would have seen a much more democratic structure in Iran by now. But instead all the smartest people here will focus on the Buffoon and call him weak if he doesn't play into the Supreme Leader's hands, becuase they're so smart and strong and virile.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 11:56:16 AM
Here's the White House official statement. Try not to be a brainless partisan hack for once.
"This morning, I spoke with Prime Minister Netanyahu about the horrific and ongoing attacks in Israel. The United States unequivocally condemns this appalling assault against Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza, and I made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that we stand ready to offer all appropriate means of support to the Government and people of Israel. Terrorism is never justified. Israel has a right to defend itself and its people. The United States warns against any other party hostile to Israel seeking advantage in this situation. My Administration's support for Israel's security is rock solid and unwavering."
This seems like an excellent statement.
And even if they had urged restraint, it wouldn't be a terrible statement. Israel has a right to defend itself and its people, that doesn't mean they can't show restraint to help quell the cycle of violence.
Israel got what it wanted here, and let's not pretend otherwise. We need a new word other than war for when there are two terrorist groups fighting.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 07, 2023, 01:29:02 PM
Israel got what it wanted here, and let's not pretend otherwise. We need a new word other than war for when there are two terrorist groups fighting.
I don't think Israel wanted this. By all indication they were completely caught off guard.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 07, 2023, 01:44:59 PM
I don't think Israel wanted this. By all indication they were completely caught off guard.
Not saying right now, but in general. Watch what happens next when Israel responds with disproportionate force.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 07, 2023, 01:29:02 PM
Israel got what it wanted here, and let's not pretend otherwise. We need a new word other than war for when there are two terrorist groups fighting.
I think you need to hit the reset button on this hot take.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on October 07, 2023, 01:58:45 PM
I think you need to hit the reset button on this hot take.
Yeah. Israel doesn't need a major excuse to indiscriminately kill civilians usually.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 07, 2023, 01:15:29 PM
FWIW the tally so far: 200 Israelis killed and 985 injured; 232 Palestinians killed and 1,697 injured. What % of Palestinian casualities are realistically tied to Hamas? Direct quote from Israeli Defense Force top official: "Hamas has opened the gates of hell into the Gaza Strip." Israel is absolutely in the process of killing more civilians than Hamas, which will in turn continue the cycle of radicalization.
There is an issue with doing these apples to apples comparisons. Not excusing war crimes or extra judicial killings when they happen, but when one side is fighting with active military forces and the other is a rebel group with scores of unofficial volunteers, it makes those counts on the Palestinian side pretty grey. Give a teen or early 20s dude a guy a gun and tell him to shoot at the people he's been taught to hate. But he's not officially a Hamas soldier so he's called a civilian when he's killed.
Also, it's not like Hamas/Hezbollah is lobbing rockets at strategic IDF sites. Israel doesn't keep civilians alongside soldiers. However rebel forces in Gaza and the West Bank do, purposefully putting key strategic sites in residential buildings and areas. So Israel either attacks rebel leaders and weapons/communications hubs near civilians or they do nothing. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Except the don't leads to dead Israelis with no retaliation.
Again, Israel has done a lot of indefensible things and more than a few IDF soldiers should have been tried for war crimes/murder. But acting like Israel kills Palestinian civilians with the same intent and malice as legitimate terrorist groups is just mainlining the PR spin from pro-Palestine/anti-Israel groups.
The same kind of PR spin that when I searched this morning, I saw about half dozen times a video of "Hamas" soldiers protecting and guiding an Israeli woman and child to safety because "we have nothing against Israeli people, just your government"...as civilian bodies were laying in the streets and civilian homes were being shot up
As you were
https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401?t=Ui6KNDnen6agCvtUXmFdug&s=19 (https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401?t=Ui6KNDnen6agCvtUXmFdug&s=19)
Quote from: JWags85 on October 07, 2023, 02:43:09 PM
There is an issue with doing these apples to apples comparisons. Not excusing war crimes or extra judicial killings when they happen, but when one side is fighting with active military forces and the other is a rebel group with scores of unofficial volunteers, it makes those counts on the Palestinian side pretty grey. Give a teen or early 20s dude a guy a gun and tell him to shoot at the people he's been taught to hate. But he's not officially a Hamas soldier so he's called a civilian when he's killed.
Also, it's not like Hamas/Hezbollah is lobbing rockets at strategic IDF sites. Israel doesn't keep civilians alongside soldiers. However rebel forces in Gaza and the West Bank do, purposefully putting key strategic sites in residential buildings and areas. So Israel either attacks rebel leaders and weapons/communications hubs near civilians or they do nothing. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Except the don't leads to dead Israelis with no retaliation.
Again, Israel has done a lot of indefensible things and more than a few IDF soldiers should have been tried for war crimes/murder. But acting like Israel kills Palestinian civilians with the same intent and malice as legitimate terrorist groups is just mainlining the PR spin from pro-Palestine/anti-Israel groups.
The same kind of PR spin that when I searched this morning, I saw about half dozen times a video of "Hamas" soldiers protecting and guiding an Israeli woman and child to safety because "we have nothing against Israeli people, just your government"...as civilian bodies were laying in the streets and civilian homes were being shot up
Where and how exactly would Palestinians be able to separate civilians from military with 2 million people in 140 square miles? I don't doubt they absolutely know their strategic actions regarding the matter but let's not pretend like this is a large autonomous country that's just cramming their forces into civilian hubs.
Also, why are teenagers that you're attributing to that civilian number picking up arms and fighting against insurmountable odds? Is it maybe because they've had a boot on their neck their whole lives? As I said more or less above, there's little water and resources to be had anyway so if you have nothing to lose, this is how people are radicalized.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:02:52 AM
And we gave Iran 6B a few weeks ago.
Iran had $6 billion in oil sales under the Trump administration in a South Korean bank. None of it is U.S. taxpayer money. Under the Trump administration, 4 banks were allowed to hold Iranian oil sales money. And under the Trump administration it was agreed to allow the money to be used for humanitarian aid.
Iran doesn't have control of the money. And its use is for humanitarian aid only.
None of the money has been spent yet. It's in a Qatari bank under U.S. Dept of Treasury watch.
But sure make up whatever you want.
Gaza will be completely occupied and Iran may be directly hit as well. This will be a retaliation unlike anything we have seen in the last 50 yrs there. Hamas will be completely obliterated and unfortunately many civilians will die. I would not be surprised if the Mullahs are taken out. Iran's people would welcome that as well. As a wrote in my first post, this will be a massive response.
Quote from: shoothoops on October 07, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Iran had $6 billion in oil sales under the Trump administration in a South Korean bank. None of it is U.S. taxpayer money. Under the Trump administration, 4 banks were allowed to hold Iranian oil sales money. And under the Trump administration it was agreed to allow the money to be used for humanitarian aid.
Iran doesn't have control of the money. And its use is for humanitarian aid only.
None of the money has been spent yet. It's in a Qatari bank under U.S. Dept of Treasury watch.
But sure make up whatever you want.
Bshite. You believe Blinken and whatever you want.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 03:20:26 PM
Bcrape. You believe Blinken and whatever you want.
?
https://x.com/acyn/status/1710725171865166204?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Quote from: shoothoops on October 07, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Iran had $6 billion in oil sales under the Trump administration in a South Korean bank. None of it is U.S. taxpayer money. Under the Trump administration, 4 banks were allowed to hold Iranian oil sales money. And under the Trump administration it was agreed to allow the money to be used for humanitarian aid.
Iran doesn't have control of the money. And its use is for humanitarian aid only.
None of the money has been spent yet. It's in a Qatari bank under U.S. Dept of Treasury watch.
But sure make up whatever you want.
Shoothoops, I hope you are not waiting for Muggs to reply and admit that he was wrong. That will be a long wait ...
Tic, toc ... tic, toc ... tic, toc
Quote from: SoCalEagle on October 07, 2023, 03:54:46 PM
Shoothoops, I hope you are not waiting for Muggs to reply and admit that he was wrong. That will be a long wait ...
Tic, toc ... tic, toc ... tic, toc
Well, the Feinstein thread got to 8 pages, so there's a lotta ballgame left
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 07, 2023, 03:31:47 PM
?
https://x.com/acyn/status/1710725171865166204?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
That doesn't mean Iran doesn't control the money.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 04:06:44 PM
That doesn't mean Iran doesn't control the money.
Religion kills, man
Quote from: JWags85 on October 07, 2023, 02:43:09 PM
There is an issue with doing these apples to apples comparisons. Not excusing war crimes or extra judicial killings when they happen, but
"Not excusing war crimes, but" is rarely a good way to start a sentence.
Israel is in a tough spot here, and the world would be better off with Hamas and Hezbollah out of existence.
But this isn't 1948 or 1967 or 1973. Israel is not without blame for the conditions which allow these terrorists to exist. It's an oversimplification to suggest the people carrying out these attack are "evil" or religious fanatics (they're not). They have legitimate political grievances.
To be absolutely clear, attacking Israeli citizens in no way an acceptable means of airing those grievances. But when it comes to the respective groups' leadership here, there are no good guys.
And yes, the IDF has proven all too happy to kill civilians with malice. There literally are dozens of documented cases.
Quote from: shoothoops on October 07, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
Iran had $6 billion in oil sales under the Trump administration in a South Korean bank. None of it is U.S. taxpayer money. Under the Trump administration, 4 banks were allowed to hold Iranian oil sales money. And under the Trump administration it was agreed to allow the money to be used for humanitarian aid.
Iran doesn't have control of the money. And its use is for humanitarian aid only.
None of the money has been spent yet. It's in a Qatari bank under U.S. Dept of Treasury watch.
But sure make up whatever you want.
So Iran agreed to release 5 American prisoners in exchange to start using that $6B for humanitarian aid. That's all they'll ever get out of it. Because that's what the Iranian leaders have clearly demonstrated they're about.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 07, 2023, 02:43:09 PM
Also, it's not like Hamas/Hezbollah is lobbing rockets at strategic IDF sites. Israel doesn't keep civilians alongside soldiers. However rebel forces in Gaza and the West Bank do, purposefully putting key strategic sites in residential buildings and areas. So Israel either attacks rebel leaders and weapons/communications hubs near civilians or they do nothing. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Except the don't leads to dead Israelis with no retaliation.
Again, Israel has done a lot of indefensible things and more than a few IDF soldiers should have been tried for war crimes/murder. But acting like Israel kills Palestinian civilians with the same intent and malice as legitimate terrorist groups is just mainlining the PR spin from pro-Palestine/anti-Israel groups.
So I agree with a lot of this in terms of military strategy. Asymetrical warfare is hard to fight. America will willfully forget that over the next five years or so, but we should know better than anyone. But as Pakuni pointed out, Israel bears a lot of responsibility for the environment in which Hamas can flourish.
I take pretty strong umbrage with the bolded above. Sure, Israel does not actively target civilian targets as Hamas did today. However Hamas is a militant organization. Israel is a nation-state with one of the most advanced militaries on the planet. Netanyahu today said they are "at war." With whom? War is between two nation states. Israel is pursuing criminal terrorists. Israel absolutely does not meet its level of responsibility, as a matter of policy, in sufficiently discriminating between criminal targets and civilian casualties and damages with respect to Gaza and the Palestinians. Pointing this out is absolutley not "mainlining PR spin from pro-Palestine/anti-Israel groups."
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 07, 2023, 04:28:03 PM
So I agree with a lot of this in terms of military strategy. Asymetrical warfare is hard to fight. America will willfully forget that over the next five years or so, but we should know better than anyone. But as Pakuni pointed out, Israel bears a lot of responsibility for the environment in which Hamas can flourish.
I take pretty strong umbrage with the bolded above. Sure, Israel does not actively target civilian targets as Hamas did today. However Hamas is a militant organization. Israel is a nation-state with one of the most advanced militaries on the planet. Netanyahu today said they are "at war." With whom? War is between two nation states. Israel is pursuing criminal terrorists. Israel absolutely does not meet its level of responsibility, as a matter of policy, in sufficiently discriminating between criminal targets and civilian casualties and damages with respect to Gaza and the Palestinians. Pointing this out is absolutley not "mainlining PR spin from pro-Palestine/anti-Israel groups."
Netanyahu should have spent more time on security than fighting for more power
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 07, 2023, 05:01:04 PM
Netanyahu should have spent more time on security than fighting for more power
They certainly fked that up which is surprising.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 07, 2023, 02:44:35 PM
As you were
https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401?t=Ui6KNDnen6agCvtUXmFdug&s=19 (https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401?t=Ui6KNDnen6agCvtUXmFdug&s=19)
Where are the Palestinians supposed to go and how are they supposed to get out?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 05:02:05 PM
They certainly fked that up which is surprising.
Netanyahu is a boob
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 07, 2023, 09:13:56 AM
no excuse! unprovoked! disgusting!
i just hope we have something left to help out israel with. between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.
Lol. You are actually dumb
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 07, 2023, 09:22:20 AM
And broke. We gave all our money to Ukraine. People forget Russia was our ally in WWII.
You should reread your text books if you think the soviet union was an actual ally.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 04:06:44 PM
That doesn't mean Iran doesn't control the money.
It absolutely does. There are rules for how the money can be used (humanitarian aid only), and it has to be approved.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:02:14 AM
The was a coordinated attack essentially from Iran designed to bring the Middle East into total chaos, and it was absolutely gruesome in nature. Iran 2nd biggest enemy is the United States. If you think this has no impact on us you're sorely mistaken nor is it really a "religious war".
This is 100% a religious war. Just like every other war Isreal has fought in the middle east.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 10:34:38 AM
If any other country was attacked in this manner the worldwide response would be much different.
The years of suffering from Palestinians probably softens the blows.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on October 07, 2023, 03:54:46 PM
Shoothoops, I hope you are not waiting for Muggs to reply and admit that he was wrong. That will be a long wait ...
Tic, toc ... tic, toc ... tic, toc
I am not.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 07, 2023, 02:43:09 PM
There is an issue with doing these apples to apples comparisons. Not excusing war crimes or extra judicial killings when they happen, but when one side is fighting with active military forces and the other is a rebel group with scores of unofficial volunteers, it makes those counts on the Palestinian side pretty grey. Give a teen or early 20s dude a guy a gun and tell him to shoot at the people he's been taught to hate. But he's not officially a Hamas soldier so he's called a civilian when he's killed.
Careful with your analogies. Hamas is the defacto government of Palestine. Many countries, including Brazil, China, Russia, South Africa, and NATO member Turkey, consider Palestine a State/Country. Which means, to those nations (including Iran who supplies them weapons), Hamas is the Palestinian military force.
Just because we do not recognize them as a nation/state, does not suddenly nullifying them globally as being a military for their nation. They are just another group seeking self-determination, just like the Kurds in Syria (who we arm, and both Syria and Turkey view as terrorists), the KLA (Kosovo/Serbia), and numerous others that we vehemently defended and called the nations they were trying to overthrow as the villains.
And just for the record, I'm not defending any actions. What Hamas did is appalling. But we choose arbitrary lenses to view these types of conflicts and brandish one side as terrorists, or freedom fighters based on what is in our best interests.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 07, 2023, 02:57:34 PM
Where and how exactly would Palestinians be able to separate civilians from military with 2 million people in 140 square miles? I don't doubt they absolutely know their strategic actions regarding the matter but let's not pretend like this is a large autonomous country that's just cramming their forces into civilian hubs.
Also, why are teenagers that you're attributing to that civilian number picking up arms and fighting against insurmountable odds? Is it maybe because they've had a boot on their neck their whole lives? As I said more or less above, there's little water and resources to be had anyway so if you have nothing to lose, this is how people are radicalized.
This whole statement means nothing.
The teen still has an AK in his hands attempting to kill Israelites.
AOC has called for a cease-fire so Netanyahu will have to reconsider everything. LOL.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 07, 2023, 05:49:56 PM
This whole statement means nothing.
The teen still has an AK in his hands attempting to kill Israelites.
Oh ok my mistake. Population going on a century of nearly sustained violence, death, and famine, only has themselves to blame for their desperation sourced violence. (Obviously goaded and supported by certain opportunists)
I wasn't saying an individual killing civilians is justified. I was remarking on the source of this attack and behavior and how sometimes societal violence comes from a place of desperation none of us can hope to truly understand.
But go ahead and take a read about what happened when they tried to protest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 06:12:56 PM
AOC has called for a cease-fire so Netanyahu will have to reconsider everything. LOL.
Who cares what she says? Congress can't tie their shoes right now. What's the speaker say?
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 07, 2023, 05:49:56 PM
This whole statement means nothing.
The teen still has an AK in his hands attempting to kill Israelites.
Maybe if all of the Israelites had guns this would be better
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 07, 2023, 06:13:17 PM
Oh ok my mistake. Population going on a century of nearly sustained violence, death, and famine, only has themselves to blame for their desperation sourced violence. (Obviously goaded and supported by certain opportunists)
I wasn't saying an individual killing civilians is justified. I was remarking on the source of this attack and behavior and how sometimes societal violence comes from a place of desperation none of us can hope to truly understand.
But go ahead and take a read about what happened when they tried to protest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
Again, nothing to do with your first statement.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 07, 2023, 06:28:48 PM
AOC? is that you? AOC?
I never thought I'd meet someone dumber then AOC. Then you come and post here.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 07, 2023, 06:39:29 PM
Again, nothing to do with your first statement.
I hope your obtuseness is deliberate for your sake.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 06:12:56 PM
AOC has called for a cease-fire so Netanyahu will have to reconsider everything. LOL.
I also think the idea of peaceful negotiation is hilarious
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 07, 2023, 07:24:04 PM
I also think the idea of peaceful negotiation is hilarious
This is analogous to Giannis surrendering when I drive to the hoop.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2023, 05:49:32 PM
Many countries, including Brazil, China, Russia, South Africa, and NATO member Turkey, consider Palestine a State/Country. Which means, to those nations (including Iran who supplies them weapons), Hamas is the Palestinian military force.
I apologize for my ignorance if I've been mistaken, but is this true? It was not my understanding that recognizing Palestine also automatically meant recognizing Hamas as the equivalent of a state military entity.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 07, 2023, 05:10:54 PM
Where are the Palestinians supposed to go and how are they supposed to get out?
They had an agreement for a country and Yasser Arafat said it wasn't good enough and walked away.
They would have been a country. You take what you can get and go forward.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 07, 2023, 08:52:11 PM
They had an agreement for a country and Yasser Arafat said it wasn't good enough and walked away.
They would have been a country. You take what you can get and go forward.
Right.
But what about now? Like, right now, when Israel told them to leave before they bomb everything
My brother is an Orthodox Jew; he and his wife live outside of Tel Aviv. He messaged me and our brother a few hours ago to say they are OK and hunkered down, and they feel they are safe.
So that's where my thoughts mainly have been today.
As for macro issues ... I am disappointed this has become a "Israel or Ukraine" thing for so many American politicians.
Putin supports Iran. Putin recently justified his invasion of Ukraine by making antisemitic comments. Putin hates Jews, as well as democracy. Putin would love to wipe America off the face of the earth.
It's amazing that some are saying Ukraine - and democracy - isn't worth defending.
Quote from: MU82 on October 07, 2023, 09:41:37 PM
My brother is an Orthodox Jew; he and his wife live outside of Tel Aviv. He messaged me and our brother a few hours ago to say they are OK and hunkered down, and they feel they are safe.
So that's where my thoughts mainly have been today.
As for macro issues ... I am disappointed this has become a "Israel or Ukraine" thing for so many American politicians.
Putin supports Iran. Putin recently justified his invasion of Ukraine by making antisemitic comments. Putin hates Jews, as well as democracy. Putin would love to wipe America off the face of the earth.
It's amazing that some are saying Ukraine - and democracy - isn't worth defending.
I'm glad your family is okay. Keep strong and your head up.
Quote from: MU82 on October 07, 2023, 09:41:37 PM
My brother is an Orthodox Jew; he and his wife live outside of Tel Aviv. He messaged me and our brother a few hours ago to say they are OK and hunkered down, and they feel they are safe.
Glad to hear they are ok, Mike. My SIL/BIL's close friends were in Tel Aviv for the holiday and a bar mitzvah. They were holed up in hotel stairwells and their flight back to the US was cancelled. Then they went radio silent for hours. Their 2 daughters are my nieces respective best friends, so that compounded to the worry. Luckily they were able to get a flight to Dubai early hours of the morning and made it out, thankfully.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 07, 2023, 09:52:39 PM
Glad to hear they are ok, Mike. My SIL/BIL's close friends were in Tel Aviv for the holiday and a bar mitzvah. They were holed up in hotel stairwells and their flight back to the US was cancelled. Then they went radio silent for hours. Their 2 daughters are my nieces respective best friends, so that compounded to the worry. Luckily they were able to get a flight to Dubai early hours of the morning and made it out, thankfully.
Wow, good to hear they got out safely, Wags.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 07, 2023, 07:41:21 PM
I apologize for my ignorance if I've been mistaken, but is this true? It was not my understanding that recognizing Palestine also automatically meant recognizing Hamas as the equivalent of a state military entity.
I don't think there is an official answer for this. But none of the countries that recognize Palestine as a country consider Hamas a terrorist organization.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 03:20:26 PM
Bcrape. You believe Blinken and whatever you want.
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-news-correspondent-fact-checks-claims-about-6-billion-released-by-us-to-iran/
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 07:17:45 AM
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-news-correspondent-fact-checks-claims-about-6-billion-released-by-us-to-iran/
It's a very strange thing on the American right, that everything that happens negatively somewhere around the world, always has its roots in a bad decision made by the Biden administration.
Like everything in the world revolved around American politics.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iranian-president-says-tehran-will-spend-6-billion-released-prisoner-e-rcna104475
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 07, 2023, 06:39:47 PM
I never thought I'd meet someone dumber then AOC. Then you come and post here.
you met AOC? umkay keep going shawny
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 08, 2023, 07:54:45 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iranian-president-says-tehran-will-spend-6-billion-released-prisoner-e-rcna104475
The money hasn't been released.
I know, reading is hard.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 08:05:31 AM
The money hasn't been released.
I know, reading is hard.
To be fair, that article is written for at least a 10th grade reading level
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 08:05:31 AM
The money hasn't been released.
I know, reading is hard.
So with the their said intentions to use the money once released "however they want", I think it'd be in our best interest to freeze that money back up.
Yesterdays attack is believed to have been months in the making so they negotiated this agreement with us knowing full well that just a few weeks later they would be launching the region into chaos.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 07, 2023, 03:20:26 PM
Bcrape. You believe Blinken and whatever you want.
Not that you'll ever admit that you were wrong, but even Fox "news" says you are wrong.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/6d/20/x7E62Gvv_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/x7E62Gvv)
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 08, 2023, 07:54:45 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iranian-president-says-tehran-will-spend-6-billion-released-prisoner-e-rcna104475
So much for the humanitarian purposes only narrative.
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 08, 2023, 08:26:18 AM
So with the their said intentions to use the money once released "however they want", I think it'd be in our best interest to freeze that money back up.
Yesterdays attack is believed to have been months in the making so they negotiated this agreement with us knowing full well that just a few weeks later they would be launching the region into chaos.
Stick to being wrong about Covid
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 08, 2023, 08:26:18 AM
So with the their said intentions to use the money once released "however they want", I think it'd be in our best interest to freeze that money back up.
Yesterdays attack is believed to have been months in the making so they negotiated this agreement with us knowing full well that just a few weeks later they would be launching the region into chaos.
That guy can say whatever they want. Doesn't make it true or possible.
The fact is, the money is being moved from one restricted account in South Korea to another restricted account in Qatar. Spending from that account will be limited to humanitarian purposes, and the U.S. maintains oversight of that.
Contrary to the false narrative you and others are pushing, nobody is cutting Iran a $6 billion check and saying "live it up."
The reality is Iran has, and will continue to, fund terrorism. This does nothing to change that either way.
But sure, blame America.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/iran-hostage-deal-clarifying-6-billion-transfer
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 08:05:31 AM
The money hasn't been released.
I know, reading is hard.
Great. So you can feel self righteous at this moment, but ultimately we know Iran isn't so stupid to release 5 American hostages in exchange for access to $6B for humanitarian purposes only as the narrative has been shoved at everyone. They'll make sure that's used for plenty of cold blooded and ruthless killing as their president told Lester Holt.
But hey, take a victory lap that you're right this day and never mind what's in the future as a result of this incompetence by the people who make decisions for ol' Joe.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 08, 2023, 08:59:16 AM
Great. So you can feel self righteous at this moment, but ultimately we know Iran isn't so stupid to release 5 American hostages in exchange for access to $6B for humanitarian purposes only as the narrative has been shoved at everyone. They'll make sure that's used for plenty of cold blooded and ruthless killing as their president told Lester Holt.
But hey, take a victory lap that you're right this day and never mind what's in the future as a result of this incompetence by the people who make decisions for ol' Joe.
Who is at fault for what happened yesterday?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 08, 2023, 09:02:23 AM
Who is at fault for what happened yesterday?
Again, according to the American right, its Joe Biden. He's at fault for everything that goes wrong in the world today because the world revolves around the American political narrative.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 08, 2023, 08:59:16 AM
Great. So you can feel self righteous at this moment, but ultimately we know Iran isn't so stupid to release 5 American hostages in exchange for access to $6B for humanitarian purposes only as the narrative has been shoved at everyone. They'll make sure that's used for plenty of cold blooded and ruthless killing as their president told Lester Holt.
But hey, take a victory lap that you're right this day and never mind what's in the future as a result of this incompetence by the people who make decisions for ol' Joe.
"Narrative has been shoved at everyone" is a weird way of saying "truth," but sure. You're obviously completely ignorant about this subject.
And why is it you guys always take the word of guys like Putin and Iranian mullahs over our intelligence community or, in this case, the U.S. Treasury?
Blame America!
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 08:56:05 AM
That guy can say whatever they want. Doesn't make it true or possible.
The fact is, the money is being moved from one restricted account in South Korea to another restricted account in Qatar. Spending from that account will be limited to humanitarian purposes, and the U.S. maintains oversight of that.
Contrary to the false narrative you and others are pushing, nobody is cutting Iran a $6 billion check and saying "live it up."
The reality is Iran has, and will continue to, fund terrorism. This does nothing to change that either way.
But sure, blame America.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/iran-hostage-deal-clarifying-6-billion-transfer
What f'ing alternative universe do you like that Iran is really content to surrender 5 of our people in exchange for funds that can only be used for humanitarian purposes?! That goes against everything we know to be true about how evil Iran's leaders have shown themselves.
And no, this isn't blaming America, this is blaming a stupid and incompetent presidential administration with a senile figurehead.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 08, 2023, 09:05:07 AM
What f'ing alternative universe do you like that Iran is really content to surrender 5 of our people in exchange for funds that can only be used for humanitarian purposes?! That goes against everything we know to be true about how evil Iran's leaders have shown themselves.
And no, this isn't blaming America, this is blaming a stupid and incompetent presidential administration with a senile figurehead.
You're willfully ignorant here.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 08, 2023, 09:04:13 AM
Again, according to the American right, its Joe Biden. He's at fault for everything that goes wrong in the world today because the world revolves around the American political narrative.
Weird. If I lived in Israel, I'd be pretty furious at Mossad and the government for such an abject failure.
If I lived in America, I'd have known from basic understanding of history, both ancient and recent, the myriad of factors that lead to events like this are rooted in a number of factors, not one thing. Of course, in America, we pride ourselves in ignorance so the response by so many supposed leaders and talking heads is rooted in the lowest common denominator
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 08, 2023, 09:05:07 AM
What f'ing alternative universe do you like that Iran is really content to surrender 5 of our people in exchange for funds that can only be used for humanitarian purposes?! That goes against everything we know to be true about how evil Iran's leaders have shown themselves.
And no, this isn't blaming America, this is blaming a stupid and incompetent presidential administration with a senile figurehead.
LOL...as I said. Everything revolves around the American political narrative. Very simplistic world you live in.
Let's just be clear, the agreement with Iran had NOTHING to do with yesterday. Yesterday was Iran trying to blow up a peace deal with Israel and Saudi Arabia because they have been fighting with SA for decades over primacy in the Persian Gulf and the mideast.
So you can sit here and continue to blame Biden for something that really isn't the point, or you can actually engage in discussion about what actually occurred and why it's occurring.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 08, 2023, 09:35:09 AM
LOL...as I said. Everything revolves around the American political narrative. Very simplistic world you live in.
Let's just be clear, the agreement with Iran had NOTHING to do with yesterday. Yesterday was Iran trying to blow up a peace deal with Israel and Saudi Arabia because they have been fighting with SA for decades over primacy in the Persian Gulf and the mideast.
So you can sit here and continue to blame Biden for something that really isn't the point, or you can actually engage in discussion about what actually occurred and why it's occurring.
Iran isn't the only party that didn't want this deal to go through. Some far-right nationalists in the Israeli government also did not want this deal to go through. Those leaders were the ones pushing for settlers etc., to enter, and threatened, to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. One of the lead proponents of that movement "Itmar Ben-Gvir," (Minister of National Security), led an incursion into the mosque area just before the recent attacks.
His goal is to have Israel settle the entire West Bank, with most Palestinians forced to leave to other Arab nations.
The Saudi-Israeli deal would have essentially ended his goals.
His actions over the last couple months (in regards to the Al-Aqsa mosque), and rhetoric and hate speech, led to much of this violence. And his role in the government would have given him access to essentially all intelligence about any possible attacks.
Note: The focus on the Al-Aqsa mosque by the far right Israelis was intentional. In Arab culture, the Saudi King is responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque. So the attacks/incursions on the mosque were directed attacks against Saudi Arabia.
There is a lot more to this and what has been brewing for a while, some of the other elements are less known in the west, because they are particularly important to the Arab world, and Islam, and less understood in regards of importance by western media.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 09:04:28 AM
And why is it you guys always take the word of guys like Putin and Iranian mullahs over our intelligence community or, in this case, the U.S. Treasury?
Blame America!
Yessir. These last 8 years have produced a bazillion "I can't believe this is happening in America" situations, and this is just another one of them.
Putin is interfering in our elections, Putin is brainstorming with Xi and Kim and Iranian leaders on how to seriously injure everything America stands for, Putin hates Israel and Jews everywhere, and Putin wants to wipe the US off the face of the earth. And yet millions of Americans -- stoked by the likes of know-nothing Fox News personalities, deranged and dangerous GQP politicians, Tucker, and especially the 91-felony criminal defendant -- actually side with Putin on important international-policy issues. Hell, the president of the United States stood on a world stage in Helsinki and said he trusted Putin more than he trusted U.S. intelligence officials, including some he himself had appointed.
It's like Bizarro America.
Just 11 years ago, as they battled for the GOP presidential nomination, every single candidate on the stage named Reagan as the political figure they most admired, the guy they most wanted to emulate if elected president.
Now, the man who basically ended the Soviet Union would be rejected as a RINO for not giving a thumbs-up to Putin (among other reasons).
Bizarro America.
Of course its Biden's fault. The entire world knows how weak the U.S is due to his "leadership" from Afghanistan, Ukraine, the pussification of our military, and our no border policy, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 08, 2023, 10:28:52 AM
Of course its Biden's fault. The entire world knows how weak the U.S is due to his "leadership" from Afghanistan, Ukraine, the pussification of our military, and our no border policy, aina?
He should write a letter
Quote from: MU82 on October 08, 2023, 10:18:39 AM
Yessir. These last 8 years have produced a bazillion "I can't believe this is happening in America" situations, and this is just another one of them.
Putin is interfering in our elections, Putin is brainstorming with Xi and Kim and Iranian leaders on how to seriously injure everything America stands for, Putin hates Israel and Jews everywhere, and Putin wants to wipe the US off the face of the earth. And yet millions of Americans -- stoked by the likes of know-nothing Fox News personalities, deranged and dangerous GQP politicians, Tucker, and especially the 91-felony criminal defendant -- actually side with Putin on important international-policy issues. Hell, the president of the United States stood on a world stage in Helsinki and said he trusted Putin more than he trusted U.S. intelligence officials, including some he himself had appointed.
It's like Bizarro America.
Just 11 years ago, as they battled for the GOP presidential nomination, every single candidate on the stage named Reagan as the political figure they most admired, the guy they most wanted to emulate if elected president.
Now, the man who basically ended the Soviet Union would be rejected as a RINO for not giving a thumbs-up to Putin (among other reasons).
Bizarro America.
Kushner got $2 billion for bringing peace to the Middle East
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 08, 2023, 10:28:52 AM
Of course its Biden's fault. The entire world knows how weak the U.S is due to his "leadership" from Afghanistan, Ukraine, the pussification of our military, and our no border policy, aina?
Brainless.
Seriously how can anyone think that the US support of Ukraine is an example of lack of leadership?
And y'all remember why we exited Afghanistan right?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 08, 2023, 10:28:52 AM
Of course its Biden's fault. The entire world knows how weak the U.S is due to his "leadership" from Afghanistan, Ukraine, the pussification of our military, and our no border policy, aina?
Doc, I know from our many conversations that you genuinely care about Israel and are repulsed by antisemitism anywhere.
And yet you have proudly backed the leading figure in a U.S. political party who has gladly accepted and even sought the support of antisemitic extremists. Even after once claiming you were done with him, you have said you'd still vote for him if he gets the GOP nomination.
You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who values his association with the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers. You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who constantly defends Putin. You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who has said there were "very fine people" carrying torches and chanting, "Blood and soil! Jews will not replace us!" You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who dines with Nick Fuentes and Kanye West.
You have every right to think everything is Biden's fault and to think his predecessor was the best president ever - it's America, and we're all allowed our opinions -- but you can't have it both ways about supposedly being totally repulsed by antisemitism yet publicly proclaiming your support of an antisemite.
As for one of your specific points in the above comment of yours ... you would have preferred how the the 91-felony criminal defendant would have responded to Putin's invasion of Ukraine, which would have been,
"OK Vlad, you lovable Jew-hater you, eff democracy and enjoy owning Ukraine"?
Quote from: MU82 on October 08, 2023, 10:55:32 AM
Doc, I know from our many conversations that you genuinely care about Israel and are repulsed by antisemitism anywhere.
And yet you have proudly backed the leading figure in a U.S. political party who has gladly accepted and even sought the support of antisemitic extremists. Even after once claiming you were done with him, you have said you'd still vote for him if he gets the GOP nomination.
You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who values his association with the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers. You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who constantly defends Putin. You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who has said there were "very fine people" carrying torches and chanting, "Blood and soil! Jews will not replace us!" You can't be serious about antisemitism and support a guy who dines with Nick Fuentes and Kanye West.
You have every right to think everything is Biden's fault and to think his predecessor was the best president ever - it's America, and we're all allowed our opinions -- but you can't have it both ways about supposedly being totally repulsed by antisemitism yet publicly proclaiming your support of an antisemite.
As for one of your specific points in the above comment of yours ... you would have preferred how the the 91-felony criminal defendant would have responded to Putin's invasion of Ukraine, which would have been, "OK Vlad, you lovable Jew-hater you, eff democracy and enjoy owning Ukraine"?
There is vehement antisemitism on both the far right and far left. And worldwide antisemitism is terrible right now and the UN has vilified Israel more than all other nations on the planet combined. I'm sorry you have to deal with this at all. It's reprehensible.
That said I support Israel 1000%. I'm guessing not one American here intimated or stated on 9-11-01 that we essentially had it coming. This is fking nonsense.
Israel is dealing with enemies surrounding her and has since its inception. Palestinians are pawns of the Arab and terrorist world, mostly controlled by Iran. Iran's entire leadership is a scourge to the planet, especially Iranian citizens. I will be rooting for Israel to eliminate Hamas, Hezbollah, the other terrorist groups, the Mullahs, and anyone that threatens their existence.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 11:14:12 AM
There is vehement antisemitism on both the far right and far left. And worldwide antisemitism is terrible right now and the UN has vilified Israel more than all other nations on the planet combined. I'm sorry you have to deal with this at all. It's reprehensible.
That said I support Israel 1000%. I'm guessing not one American here intimated or stated on 9-11-01 that we essentially had it coming. This is fking nonsense.
Israel is dealing with enemies surrounding her and has since its inception. Palestinians are pawns of the Arab and terrorist world, mostly controlled by Iran. Iran's entire leadership is a scourge to the planet, especially Iranian citizens. I will be rooting for Israel to eliminate Hamas, Hezbollah, the other terrorist groups, the Mullahs, and anyone that threatens their existence.
9-11 happened because we had weak leadership and an idiot as president and the world knew it
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 08, 2023, 11:18:02 AM
9-11 happened because we had weak leadership and an idiot as president and the world knew it
9-11 -01 was 20+ years in the making starting with the '79 hostages. We were preoccupied with the Cold War and each US administration neglected their responsibilities.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 11:23:08 AM
9-11 -01 was 20+ years in the making starting with the '79 hostages. We were preoccupied with the Cold War and each US administration neglected their responsibilities.
No, it was Bush's fault. He was weak and an idiot
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 11:23:08 AM
9-11 -01 was 20+ years in the making starting with the '79 hostages. We were preoccupied with the Cold War and each US administration neglected their responsibilities.
9-11 had absolutely nothing to do with the '79 hostages.
Geezus.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 11:29:24 AM
9-11 had absolutely nothing to do with the '79 hostages.
Geezus.
We neglected Islamic extremist groups.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 11:31:07 AM
We neglected Islamic extremist groups.
Neglected?
My dude, we created Islamic extremist groups
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 11:31:07 AM
We neglected Islamic extremist groups.
History and our prior diplomatic actions were irrelevant to 9-11. It's the presidents fault. Read scoop, pal
Hamas really effed up here. Israel's security cabinet has formally declared war a couple of hours ago for the first time since 1973, and the West are defunding Palestine showing open support for Israel.
I'd guess that Gaza will be Israel in short order. I wonder if they'll take part of the West Bank, too.
Hopefully the Arab League don't step up and this ends quickly. What a tinderbox.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 08, 2023, 09:05:07 AM
And no, this isn't blaming America, this is blaming a stupid and incompetent presidential administration with a senile figurehead.
Just read Trump's statements from last week and tell me who is ignorant and senile.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 08, 2023, 12:03:00 PM
Hamas really effed up here. Israel's security cabinet has formally declared war a couple of hours ago for the first time since 1973, and the West are defunding Palestine showing open support for Israel.
I'd guess that Gaza will be Israel in short order. I wonder if they'll take part of the West Bank, too.
Hopefully the Arab League don't step up and this ends quickly. What a tinderbox.
Yeah I think they completely overplayed their hand here. I'm not sure Israel wants Gaza - better to occupy it and not give its residents the rights of citizens.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 08, 2023, 09:08:31 AM
Weird. If I lived in Israel, I'd be pretty furious at Mossad and the government for such an abject failure.
If I lived in America, I'd have known from basic understanding of history, both ancient and recent, the myriad of factors that lead to events like this are rooted in a number of factors, not one thing. Of course, in America, we pride ourselves in ignorance so the response by so many supposed leaders and talking heads is rooted in the lowest common denominator
+1,000,000
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 08, 2023, 11:41:02 AM
History and our prior diplomatic actions were irrelevant to 9-11. It's the presidents fault. Read scoop, pal
I'd swear that 9-11 was a combination of Crean's and ND's fault. (and obviously the brainiacs at UW-Madison were the masterminds.)
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 08, 2023, 12:03:00 PM
Hamas really effed up here. Israel's security cabinet has formally declared war a couple of hours ago for the first time since 1973, and the West are defunding Palestine showing open support for Israel.
I'd guess that Gaza will be Israel in short order. I wonder if they'll take part of the West Bank, too.
Hopefully the Arab League don't step up and this ends quickly. What a tinderbox.
Israel appears to have widespread support right now, and people are saying the right things but this can clearly change. Do not be surprised I'd they are vilified for using hard power.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on October 08, 2023, 01:08:31 PM
I'd swear that 9-11 was a combination of Crean's and ND's fault. (and obviously the brainiacs at UW-Madison were the masterminds.)
I had heard Bo cooled on Muhammad Atta
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 08, 2023, 12:06:29 PM
Yeah I think they completely overplayed their hand here. I'm not sure Israel wants Gaza - better to occupy it and not give its residents the rights of citizens.
When I think of "rights of citizens" the first thing that comes to my mind is how kind and considerate Arabian countries have been to Palestinians. Both when they occupied territories in Israel and now. If the '67 borders existed today it would be all gumdrop smiles and rivers of chocolate. And Palestinian leadership has also been sublime. Especially when they've rejected every deal on the table.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on October 08, 2023, 01:13:39 PM
Didn't have the grades.
His mother was terrible to deal with.
In the spirit of 'history never repeats itself, but it rhymes' it appears to me that Hamas is trying to succeed where the October War failed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
They should have found some allies, eh?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 11:14:12 AM
There is vehement antisemitism on both the far right and far left.
Sigh.
The leader of one of our two major political parties gladly accepts and solicits support from raging (and often violent) antisemites who would like to "cleanse" America. His favorite congressperson, one who has been floated as his possible 2024 running mate, blames Jewish Space Lasers for some of America's ills.
But sure, Ilhan Omar is an antisemite, and that sucks and I wish she weren't in Congress. But she has never been nor will ever be the president of the United States, she has no chance to ever be the U.S. vice president, and she is not the unquestioned leader of one of our two parties.
Good bothsiderism, though. Very fine people on both sides, dontcha know?!?!
Quote from: MU82 on October 08, 2023, 02:25:10 PM
Sigh.
The leader of one of our two major political parties gladly accepts and solicits support from raging (and often violent) antisemites who would like to "cleanse" America. His favorite congressperson, one who has been floated as his possible 2024 running mate, blames Jewish Space Lasers for some of America's ills.
But sure, Ilhan Omar is an antisemite, and that sucks and I wish she weren't in Congress. But she has never been nor will ever be the president of the United States, she has no chance to ever be the U.S. vice president, and she is not the unquestioned leader of one of our two parties.
Good bothsiderism, though. Very fine people on both sides, dontcha know?!?!
It's more than Omar and it's all over Europe and has been well documented.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 02:32:38 PM
It's more than Omar and it's all over Europe and has been well documented.
Don't conflate antisemitism with anti-Israel. They aren't synonymous.
And yes, antisemitism is terrible and on the rise. And no, it's not driven equally by "both sides."
Quote from: MU82 on October 08, 2023, 02:25:10 PM
Sigh.
The leader of one of our two major political parties gladly accepts and solicits support from raging (and often violent) antisemites who would like to "cleanse" America. His favorite congressperson, one who has been floated as his possible 2024 running mate, blames Jewish Space Lasers for some of America's ills.
But sure, Ilhan Omar is an antisemite, and that sucks and I wish she weren't in Congress. But she has never been nor will ever be the president of the United States, she has no chance to ever be the U.S. vice president, and she is not the unquestioned leader of one of our two parties.
Good bothsiderism, though. Very fine people on both sides, dontcha know?!?!
::)
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 02:32:38 PM
It's more than Omar and it's all over Europe and has been well documented.
Antisemitism is rampant in Europe, you're right. Putin is one of the leading Jew-haters out there, and yet GOP leaders - including the unquestioned leader - are constantly defending him and being deferential to him; many think he should just be handed Ukraine.
But I was talking specifically about antisemitism in America. Where we live.
And yes, it's more than Omar. It's the previous president and millions of his supporters, too. David Duke publicly thanked him for his "very fine people" comment. I'm pretty sure very few of them are voting for Biden - or even a fellow antisemite like Omar.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 02:52:34 PM
Don't conflate antisemitism with anti-Israel. They aren't synonymous.
And yes, antisemitism is terrible and on the rise. And no, it's not driven equally by "both sides."
This is the common talking point of the far left. They're not identical, and far right antisemitism is more violent, but the anti-israeli rhetoric and sentiment is a major contributor to antisemitism. It leads to more prejudice from people who don't know anything about the history of Jews, Israel, The Middle East, etc, etc, etc.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 03:21:23 PM
This is the common talking point of the far left. They're not identical, and far right antisemitism is more violent, but the anti-israeli rhetoric and sentiment is a major contributor to antisemitism. It leads to more prejudice from people who don't know anything about the history of Jews, Israel, The Middle East, etc, etc, etc.
Yeah this is horsesh*t. If people don't understand the difference between anti-Israel and antisemitism, then that's on them.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 08, 2023, 03:26:33 PM
Yeah this is horsesh*t. If people don't understand the difference between anti-Israel and antisemitism, then that's on them.
Republican talking point:
"Yeah this is horsesh*t. If people don't understand the difference between anti-illegal immigration and racism, then that's on them."
;)
Quote from: MU82 on October 08, 2023, 02:25:10 PM
Sigh.
The leader of one of our two major political parties gladly accepts and solicits support from raging (and often violent) antisemites who would like to "cleanse" America. His favorite congressperson, one who has been floated as his possible 2024 running mate, blames Jewish Space Lasers for some of America's ills.
But sure, Ilhan Omar is an antisemite, and that sucks and I wish she weren't in Congress. But she has never been nor will ever be the president of the United States, she has no chance to ever be the U.S. vice president, and she is not the unquestioned leader of one of our two parties.
Good bothsiderism, though. Very fine people on both sides, dontcha know?!?!
Anti-modern Israel is not anti semitism.
Omar suggesting AIPAC has significant lobbying influence in our politics and policy to the terms of of millions is easily enough outlined in their annual reports of campaign contributions and lobbying.
As is completely their right to do so within our contribution laws.
But lobbing antisemitism accusations over criticism of a country's actions and human rights record weakens its impact when needs to be used against white power nazi freaks in the replies of Elon tweets these days.
Nobody should be immune to criticism. We as Americans should be the first ones to know this needs to be the case.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on October 08, 2023, 03:33:55 PM
Republican talking point:
"Yeah this is horsesh*t. If people don't understand the difference between anti-illegal immigration and racism, then that's on them."
;)
Agreed.
I didn't say they were the same thing or that Israel shouldn't be criticized. The fact of the matter is ideological Anti-Israeli sentiment, which is ubiquitous and taught all over the world ,without the entire context, is very damaging to increased worldwide antisemitism.
At least 260 people murdered at a music festival. Disgusting.
76 children have already died in Israeli bombings of housing complexes. Also Disgusting.
There are no winners in this conflict. And no winners in all the historic conflict in Israel/Palestine.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 08, 2023, 03:58:38 PM
Anti-modern Israel is not anti semitism.
Omar suggesting AIPAC has significant lobbying influence in our politics and policy to the terms of of millions is easily enough outlined in their annual reports of campaign contributions and lobbying.
As is completely their right to do so within our contribution laws.
But lobbing antisemitism accusations over criticism of a country's actions and human rights record weakens its impact when needs to be used against white power nazi freaks in the replies of Elon tweets these days.
Nobody should be immune to criticism. We as Americans should be the first ones to know this needs to be the case.
I agree with much of this. Often, comments criticizing Israeli leadership are not antisemitic.
But sometimes they are, or they serve as dog whistles.
It goes the other way, too. The previous president is generally pro-Israel but he has a long, ugly history of supporting antisemitism.
Omar has pushed some antisemitic tropes. Of course, sincere or not (only she can know), she did apologize. And the national Democratic Party condemned her statements.
Contrast that to Ms. Jewish Space Laser, an overt antisemite who has been given a prominent role by the GOP, is regularly praised by the unquestioned leader of the party, and is being mentioned as a possible VP candidate.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 03:21:23 PM
This is the common talking point of the far left. They're not identical, and far right antisemitism is more violent, but the anti-israeli rhetoric and sentiment is a major contributor to antisemitism. It leads to more prejudice from people who don't know anything about the history of Jews, Israel, The Middle East, etc, etc, etc.
So, people critical of specific policies of the Israeli government share responsibility for antisemitism?
Huh. Never mind that virulent antisemitism existed for centuries before the founding of Israel.
It's being reported that Iran gave the go ahead and were directly involved in coordinating the attack. This is going to take some time, especially because of the hostages. Israel was clearly caught off guard but this may very well lead to not only destroying Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and other terrorist groups but Iran's leadership being introduced to darkness as well. I fully expect USA support here for the long run and Iran's potential nuclear ambitions to be eliminated.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2023, 04:39:23 PM
So, people critical of specific policies of the Israeli government share responsibility for antisemitism?
Huh. Never mind that virulent antisemitism existed for centuries before the founding of Israel.
Have you seen the rallies going on today in New Yori? There is antisemitism on the far left Pakumi.
Y'all are delusional and out of touch with reality if you believe anti-Israel doesn't equate to anti-semitism . They are one and the same and cannot be separated in an attempt to soften the blow with semantics, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 08, 2023, 05:06:27 PM
Y'all are delusional and out of touch with reality if you believe anti-Israel doesn't equate to anti-semitism . They are one and the same and cannot be separated in an attempt to soften the blow with semantics, hey?
Can you explain this in the context of the almost American levels of political division
within Israel? Is believing one of those sides is right and the other is wrong, and speaking out against the side you believe is wrong, also anti-semitic?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 08, 2023, 05:06:27 PM
Y'all are delusional and out of touch with reality if you believe anti-Israel doesn't equate to anti-semitism . They are one and the same and cannot be separated in an attempt to soften the blow with semantics, hey?
So Jewish Americans who oppose policies of the Israeli government are antisemites?
Interesting. I'll tell them a dentist from Wisconsin understands antisemitism better than they do.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 08, 2023, 05:00:54 PM
Have you seen the rallies going on today in New Yori? There is antisemitism on the far left Pakumi.
1. No one here said there was zero antisemitism on the left
2. You continue to conflate antisemitism with anti-Israel. Despite what the poorest spelling members of the Suburban Milwaukee Dental Association say, they're not the same thing.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 08, 2023, 05:06:27 PM
Y'all are delusional and out of touch with reality if you believe anti-Israel doesn't equate to anti-semitism . They are one and the same and cannot be separated in an attempt to soften the blow with semantics, hey?
There are degrees to everything. For example, as a person who was born and raised Jewish, I am strongly against Bibi wanting to turn Israel into a theocracy that he lords over, as he's trying to do. I don't believe that's anti-Israel, and it obviously isn't antisemitic. It's a problem with the way a corrupt leader wants to rule.
But sure, there are many - millions - who are both anti-Israel and antisemitic. Putin is one of the biggies, and yet people you admire defer to him all the time.
Meanwhile, y'all are delusional and out of touch with reality if you believe someone who is pro-Israel can't be antisemitic. Your 91-felony criminal defendant is exactly that, and he's proven it time and again. Saying he's not antisemitic just because he's in bed with Bibi is an attempt to soften the blow with semantics, nu?
Quote from: MU82 on October 08, 2023, 04:30:07 PM
I agree with much of this. Often, comments criticizing Israeli leadership are not antisemitic.
But sometimes they are, or they serve as dog whistles.
It goes the other way, too. The previous president is generally pro-Israel but he has a long, ugly history of supporting antisemitism.
Omar has pushed some antisemitic tropes. Of course, sincere or not (only she can know), she did apologize. And the national Democratic Party condemned her statements.
Contrast that to Ms. Jewish Space Laser, an overt antisemite who has been given a prominent role by the GOP, is regularly praised by the unquestioned leader of the party, and is being mentioned as a possible VP candidate.
Thank you for explaining your thinking. It's good to know your perspective on something I may be making assumptions on that I am not privy to experiencing personally.
A chief of naval operations might be beneficial as a carrier group is moved to the eastern Mediterranean. How is that for American politics? Or, ponder all of those top secret documents floating around as we try and figure out how Hamas so thoroughly duped Mossad.
Lies, treachery, and deceit in the middle east leads to human tragedy.
https://x.com/nathanjrobinson/status/1711185184177975447?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
More or less along the lines of what many have said around here.
Quote from: forgetful on October 08, 2023, 04:24:24 PM
At least 260 people murdered at a music festival. Disgusting.
76 children have already died in Israeli bombings of housing complexes. Also Disgusting.
There are no winners in this conflict. And no winners in all the historic conflict in Israel/Palestine.
They attack Jewish children then hide behind their own children; that is disgusting.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 08, 2023, 10:16:55 PM
They attack Jewish children then hide behind their own children; that is disgusting.
Yes, Hamas is disgusting.
But Israel has bombed Mosques, Hospitals, and housing complexes already, that had no connection to Hamas, besides maybe a Hamas member living, worshipping or being treated there. Doctor's without borders was even calling out Israel for bombing hospitals, and ambulances.
I've said it in other contexts and it applies here too. War is ugly, atrocities being committed on all sides.
Quote from: forgetful on October 08, 2023, 10:31:31 PM
Yes, Hamas is disgusting.
But Israel has bombed Mosques, Hospitals, and housing complexes already, that had no connection to Hamas, besides maybe a Hamas member living, worshipping or being treated there. Doctor's without borders was even calling out Israel for bombing hospitals, and ambulances.
I've said it in other contexts and it applies here too. War is ugly, atrocities being committed on all sides.
so it's a "bothsiderism" thing then?? i think this was tipped to onesiderism suddenly. weird how iran is celebrating this just a few weeks after getting their hostages back along with $6 billion freed up? never never ever negotiate with a terrorist. nuclear deal?? don't make me cry
Quote from: forgetful on October 08, 2023, 10:31:31 PM
Yes, Hamas is disgusting.
But Israel has bombed Mosques, Hospitals, and housing complexes already, that had no connection to Hamas, besides maybe a Hamas member living, worshipping or being treated there. Doctor's without borders was even calling out Israel for bombing hospitals, and ambulances.
I've said it in other contexts and it applies here too. War is ugly, atrocities being committed on all sides.
Then Hamas should not store war weapons in schools, hospitals, and mosques, aina?
How do y'all feel about apartheid states?
Here's NYT's David Leonhardt's take of how recent U.S. administrations have affected the world order. He spares nobody ...
Why has American power receded? Some of the change is unavoidable. Dominant countries don't remain dominant forever. But the U.S. has also made strategic mistakes that are accelerating the arrival of a multipolar world.
Among those mistakes: Presidents of both parties naïvely believed that a richer China would inevitably be a friendlier China — and failed to recognize that the U.S. was building up its own rival through lenient trade policies, as the political scientist John Mearsheimer has argued. In Afghanistan and Iraq, the U.S. spent much of the early 21st century fighting costly wars. The Iraq war was especially damaging because it was an unprovoked war that George W. Bush chose to start. And the humiliating retreat from Afghanistan, overseen by President Biden, made the U.S. look weaker still.
Perhaps the biggest damage to American prestige has come from Donald Trump, who has rejected the very idea that the U.S. should lead the world. Trump withdrew from international agreements and disdained successful alliances like NATO. He has signaled that, if he reclaims the presidency in 2025, he may abandon Ukraine.
In the case of Israel, Trump encouraged Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, to show little concern for Palestinian interests and instead seek a maximal Israeli victory. Netanyahu, of course, did not start this new war. Hamas did, potentially with support from Iran, the group's longtime backer, and Hamas committed shocking human rights violations this past weekend, captured on video.
But Netanyahu's extremism has contributed to the turmoil between Israel and Palestinian groups like Hamas. An editorial in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, yesterday argued, "The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession." Netanyahu, Haaretz added, adopted "a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians."
Quote from: MU82 on October 09, 2023, 07:21:38 AM
Here's NYT's David Leonhardt's take of how recent U.S. administrations have affected the world order. He spares nobody ...
Why has American power receded? Some of the change is unavoidable. Dominant countries don't remain dominant forever. But the U.S. has also made strategic mistakes that are accelerating the arrival of a multipolar world.
Among those mistakes: Presidents of both parties naïvely believed that a richer China would inevitably be a friendlier China — and failed to recognize that the U.S. was building up its own rival through lenient trade policies, as the political scientist John Mearsheimer has argued. In Afghanistan and Iraq, the U.S. spent much of the early 21st century fighting costly wars. The Iraq war was especially damaging because it was an unprovoked war that George W. Bush chose to start. And the humiliating retreat from Afghanistan, overseen by President Biden, made the U.S. look weaker still.
Perhaps the biggest damage to American prestige has come from Donald Trump, who has rejected the very idea that the U.S. should lead the world. Trump withdrew from international agreements and disdained successful alliances like NATO. He has signaled that, if he reclaims the presidency in 2025, he may abandon Ukraine.
In the case of Israel, Trump encouraged Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, to show little concern for Palestinian interests and instead seek a maximal Israeli victory. Netanyahu, of course, did not start this new war. Hamas did, potentially with support from Iran, the group's longtime backer, and Hamas committed shocking human rights violations this past weekend, captured on video.
But Netanyahu's extremism has contributed to the turmoil between Israel and Palestinian groups like Hamas. An editorial in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, yesterday argued, "The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession." Netanyahu, Haaretz added, adopted "a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians."
Netanyahu's failure is complete
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 05:46:28 AM
so it's a "bothsiderism" thing then?? i think this was tipped to onesiderism suddenly.
Oh sure, now ya'll want to bothsiderism violence in the Middle East!?!
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 07:59:49 AM
Netanyahu's failure is complete
I believe it is noted dental philosopher 4ever who said something about electing the same people over and over.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 09, 2023, 06:00:18 AM
Then Hamas should not store war weapons in schools, hospitals, and mosques, aina?
1. There is no evidence any of those sites had any weapons. It would appear that at least for hitting the mosque, Israel hit it because a target was worshiping there.
2. Even if there were weapons there, it is a war crime to target them.
There is no excuse whatsoever to target innocent civilians, including children and toddlers. We rightly damn Russia when it does so, it is equally wrong when Israel does this.
Israel has the capabilities of doing targeted strikes. They were dropping barrel bombs indiscriminately on housing complexes.
Elon Musk is here to "help" ...
As false information about the rapidly changing war between Gaza Strip militants and Israel proliferated on the social media platform X over the weekend, owner Elon Musk personally recommended that users follow accounts notorious for promoting lies.
"For following the war in real-time, @WarMonitors & @sentdefender are good," Musk posted on the platform formerly called Twitter on Sunday morning to 150 million follower accounts. That post was viewed 11 million times in three hours, drawing thanks from those two accounts, before Musk deleted it.
Both were among the most important early spreaders of a false claim in May that there had been an explosion near the White House. The Dow Jones Industrial Average stock index briefly dropped 85 points before that story was debunked.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 05:46:28 AM
so it's a "bothsiderism" thing then?? i think this was tipped to onesiderism suddenly. weird how iran is celebrating this just a few weeks after getting their hostages back along with $6 billion freed up? never never ever negotiate with a terrorist. nuclear deal?? don't make me cry
This was debunked pages ago. Keep up.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 09:09:44 AM
This was debunked pages ago. Keep up.
Stop interfering. They desperately need this war to have been funded by that $6 billion.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 08:55:01 AM
I believe it is noted dental philosopher 4ever who said something about electing the same people over and over.
How he still remains a voice in Israel governance is both amazing and alarming.
Quote from: MU82 on October 09, 2023, 09:05:28 AM
Elon Musk is here to "help" ...
As false information about the rapidly changing war between Gaza Strip militants and Israel proliferated on the social media platform X over the weekend, owner Elon Musk personally recommended that users follow accounts notorious for promoting lies.
"For following the war in real-time, @WarMonitors & @sentdefender are good," Musk posted on the platform formerly called Twitter on Sunday morning to 150 million follower accounts. That post was viewed 11 million times in three hours, drawing thanks from those two accounts, before Musk deleted it.
Both were among the most important early spreaders of a false claim in May that there had been an explosion near the White House. The Dow Jones Industrial Average stock index briefly dropped 85 points before that story was debunked.
Musk has told us over and over again who he is. Believe him.
Quote from: forgetful on October 09, 2023, 08:56:00 AM
There is no excuse whatsoever to target innocent civilians, including children and toddlers. We rightly damn Russia when it does so, it is equally wrong when Israel does this.
Israel has the capabilities of doing targeted strikes. They were dropping barrel bombs indiscriminately on housing complexes.
"Target innocent civilians" implies the goal/aim is to kill civilians. Stating they should be more precise and calculated in strikes is one thing. Saying the goal of a Israeli bomb drop or missile attack is to kill civilians is a bit ridiculous. That's a misguided interpretation of collateral damage, IMO.
Quote from: forgetful on October 09, 2023, 08:56:00 AM
1. There is no evidence any of those sites had any weapons. It would appear that at least for hitting the mosque, Israel hit it because a target was worshiping
It's is physically impossible for 5000+ rockets to be stored/launched in somewhere as small and compact as Gaza without the storage/launch sites to be next to/within civilian sites.
Here is an article from a Putlitzer nominated journalist about that exact thing with evidence that Hamas was hiding weapons in schools and the like. Why would things have changed from when the article was written till now?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
Israeli over-agression and disregard for collateral damage is very much relevant to criticism. But we also need to stop that they are dealing with a foe that operates under any sort of international standard or code of ethics. A foe that has shown they will willingly sacrifice their own people/civilians to achieve their goal, which again can't be understated, is the total eradication of Israel
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 09:52:59 AM
"Target innocent civilians" implies the goal/aim is to kill civilians. Stating they should be more precise and calculated in strikes is one thing. Saying the goal of a Israeli bomb drop or missile attack is to kill civilians is a bit ridiculous. That's a misguided interpretation of collateral damage, IMO.
If they're hitting civilian targets - which they indisputably are - it's disingenuous to claim they aren't trying to kill civilians. You can't intentionally blow up an apartment building and then claim any civilian deaths are accidental. Like, who did they think is going to die when you destroy a residential building?
And, if we look at the record of the Israeli government, it's beyond a doubt that they've never had an issue with collective punishment. It's been their strategy for decades.
I say this with no judgment one way or the other. But it would be naive to believe either side here wears a white hat.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 10:11:44 AM
If they're hitting civilian targets - which they indisputably are - it's disingenuous to claim they aren't trying to kill civilians. You can't intentionally blow up an apartment building and then claim any civilian deaths are accidental. Like, who did they think is going to die when you destroy a residential building?
And, if we look at the record of the Israeli government, it's beyond a doubt that they've never had an issue with collective punishment. It's been their strategy for decades.
I say this with no judgment one way or the other. But it would be naive to believe either side here wears a white hat.
I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat. But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.
Speaking of anti-semitism
https://x.com/robertdownen_/status/1711364039513698513?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 10:40:06 AM
I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat. But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.
100% correct. You should be ashamed of yourself Pakumi. Disgusting.to read your views.
Abhorrent, disgusting behavior by the extremist governments/leaders of Israel and Palestine. Jews and Muslims do not want to live like this, they want peace, they are being used as pawns in both a regional and global war. US intervention will be disastrous. Admittedly, I am generally against US foreign intervention and lean for a free, independent Palestine state. I ache for my Jewish/Israeli and Muslim/Palestinian brothers and sisters. Horrifying display of war and ideologic, political, nationalist, and religious extremism.
Of course, I don't know anything, and I am an observer from afar who can never understand the true pain and suffering either "side" has endured. I wish we could sympathize with all who are suffering.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 11:21:29 AM
100% correct. You should be ashamed of yourself Pakumi. Disgusting.to read your views.
What are my views?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 10:40:06 AM
I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat. But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.
Except Israel does target civilians both militarily and through government policy.
I can't blame Israel for their reaction to this attack, though. I just push back on the idea that Hamas attacks civilians while Israel targets only military sites.
Both sides share plenty of blame. Hamas is just more deplorable because it's leaders know that Palestinians will suffer way more from their actions than the Israelis will.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 10:40:06 AM
I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat. But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.
Justifying Hamas' actions here in any way - whether because Israel also has done bad things, or anything else - is gross. We agree.
My point of contention, if you want to call it that, is any insinuation that Israel's killing of civilians is merely an unfortunate accident or collateral damage. If you're targeting civilian sites like housing and hospitals, then civilian deaths can't be accidental.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 10:40:06 AM
I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat. But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.
FWIW its also a false equivalency to analogize the Israeli military : Israel :: Hamas : Palestine
Quote from: Jockey on October 09, 2023, 11:40:18 AM
Both sides share plenty of blame. Hamas is just more deplorable because it's leaders know that Palestinians will suffer way more from their actions than the Israelis will.
This is a good call out. Hames =/= Palestine. And Palestinians are just a puppet for Hamas. Which makes this so incredibly difficult to navigate. Hamas would sacrifice the life of every Palestinian civilian if it meant Israel's demise. A free Palestine is as much a freedom from Hamas/Hezbollah as it is a freedom from Israel. While much focus is placed on the latter, it simply cannot occur without the former.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 11:42:33 AM
Justifying Hamas' actions here in any way - whether because Israel also has done bad things, or anything else - is gross. We agree.
My point of contention, if you want to call it that, is any insinuation that Israel's killing of civilians is merely an unfortunate accident or collateral damage. If you're targeting civilian sites like housing and hospitals, then civilian deaths can't be accidental.
I don't think its an unfortunate accident, but I just think the aim is exceedingly different. If Hamas was launching their attacks from Egypt or Syria, with no presence in Gaza, IDF wouldn't be blasting civilians in Gaza right now for the hell of it. Look at the difference in deaths year by year in Gaza vs the West Bank.
Tangentially related, its a bit raw so maybe now is not the time, but this situation makes me recommend that everyone should watch Fauda. Granted its an Israeli show co-created by a former IDF Special Forces soldier, but it gives a fairly intricate look into the nature of the daily military conflict, casts a fair eye to the suffering of Palestinians caught in the middle, and just how grey it all is.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 09, 2023, 11:51:00 AM
FWIW its also a false equivalency to analogize the Israeli military : Israel :: Hamas : Palestine
I would agree, except that Hamas is the majority elected ruling party in Palestine. And they have an outsized impact on everything regarding the Palestinian people. And many pro-Palestinian groups support Hamas' terrorist efforts on Palestine's "behalf"
One interesting perspective on the entire Middle East mess came from a friend who is Muslim and has lived in both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. His late father was a professional whose main client was the Saudi royal family.
First things first: he absolutely hated Israel and repreatedly wished for that nation's demise -- a common thread in the Muslim world.
Secondly, his feeling was that many younger Muslims looked at Israel with a sense of envy. It's one of the few places in the middle east with no oil. Yet, Israel is comparatively affluent, entrepreneurial, democratic and (before the religious right in Israel really started to assert itself) relatively free to speak and do as one wished. Many of those same young Muslims are angry because of things like the corruption of the various royal families, the limitations on their own abilities and, in many cases the poverty.
Iran and other countries have used religion as a fascade, he noted, but it's the anger over the relative affluence in Israel and the question, "why can't we have this," he noted.
As to other Muslim countries, they're doing nothing to reduce the anger and animosity of the Palestinians. With all of the oil wealth throughout the Middle East, one would think the oil-rich countries would use their wealth to reduce tension by making economic investment in Palestinian controlled lands in the Gaza strip. But such tension-reducing investment doesn't serve the shieks' best interests, which is destabilization by fostering a holy war. It's easier to stoke up the anger of a whole group of far-away Middle Eastern enthenticities than it is to deal with the weaknesses in your own country, the latter of which would lead to civil unrest were it not for the overriding anger toward the Jewish people in Isreal.
That's why I believe Iran stoked up the Palestinians. Things have been a little uncomfortable for the mullahs as of late, so I'm convinced they sat down and said, "let's start another holy war and unite the people." And, if they can draw in the great satan, all the better.
I know this sounds stupid but it's the middle east. Nothing there makes sense to the Western mind!
Before anyone cries, "but the source". A very good write-up on the Hamas attack from The Daily Kos.
Hamas learned the wrong lessons from Russia
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/10/8/2198125/-Ukraine-Update-Hamas-learned-the-wrong-lessons-from-Russia
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 11:21:29 AM
100% correct. You should be ashamed of yourself Pakumi. Disgusting.to read your views.
Muggsy, this is entirely unfair and overly hysterical. I don't necessarily agree with everything with Pakuni has stated here, but we've been having a civil, educated exchange. He's been fair and evenhanded. Nothing remotely disgusting. Save that sort of outrage for the groups in the US celebrating this weekend or people who immediately justify or brush away Hamas' actions stating that its "Israel's fault, they deserved this", nothing of which he even implied.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 12:15:24 PM
I don't think its an unfortunate accident, but I just think the aim is exceedingly different. If Hamas was launching their attacks from Egypt or Syria, with no presence in Gaza, IDF wouldn't be blasting civilians in Gaza right now for the hell of it. Look at the difference in deaths year by year in Gaza vs the West Bank.
Fair enough. I'll put it this way, and let it drop.
I don't think killing civilians is the primary intent/goal of the IDF. But I don't believe the loss of civilian life is something they try to avoid. It's acceptable - and sometimes even beneficial, i.e. collective punishment - in furtherance of their wider goals.
I think this is true in part because many Israelis view Palestinians as less than equal humans, just as many Palestinians view Israelis as less than equal humans. I have no idea how you solve this with that being a prevailing attitude on both sides.
Your comments in response to Muggsy are appreciated.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2023, 01:18:51 PM
This seems like an excellent statement.
And even if they had urged restraint, it wouldn't be a terrible statement. Israel has a right to defend itself and its people, that doesn't mean they can't show restraint to help quell the cycle of violence.
Easy for many here to say since none of our loved one were not killed.
Quote from: forgetful on October 08, 2023, 10:31:31 PM
Yes, Hamas is disgusting.
But Israel has bombed Mosques, Hospitals, and housing complexes already, that had no connection to Hamas, besides maybe a Hamas member living, worshipping or being treated there. Doctor's without borders was even calling out Israel for bombing hospitals, and ambulances.
I've said it in other contexts and it applies here too. War is ugly, atrocities being committed on all sides.
Have they condemned Hamas for the unprovoked indiscriminate bombing in Israel?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 09, 2023, 12:54:53 PM
Have they condemned Hamas for the unprovoked indiscriminate bombing in Israel?
Here is their statement. Pretty hard to dispute it.
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-msf-provides-medical-care-and-donates-supplies-amid-intense-conflict
They don't comment on what is happening in Israel because they don't operate in Israel. They operate in Palestine.
"A challenge facing medical staff in Gaza right now is the lack of safe ways to transfer patients to health facilities. "Ambulances can't be used right now because they're being hit by airstrikes," said Darwin Diaz, MSF medical coordinator in Gaza.
In fighting on October 7, Israeli forces struck Indonesian hospital and an ambulance in front of Nasser hospital, killing a nurse and an ambulance driver and injuring several others. MSF has supported Indonesian hospital and Nasser hospital in southern Gaza since 2021 and 2011, respectively.
MSF calls on all parties to the conflict to respect health infrastructure and workers. Health care facilities cannot become targets and hospitals must remain a sanctuary for people seeking care, MSF said."
...
"MSF does not run medical programs in Israel, which has strong emergency and health services. Since we currently only run programs in the Palestinian Territories, our reporting is rooted in the direct witnessing of our patients and staff on the ground there. As an independent, impartial humanitarian organization, we call on all parties to the conflict to ensure the safety of civilians and medical facilities."
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 09, 2023, 12:15:53 PM
One interesting perspective on the entire Middle East mess came from a friend who is Muslim and has lived in both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. His late father was a professional whose main client was the Saudi royal family.
First things first: he absolutely hated Israel and repreatedly wished for that nation's demise -- a common thread in the Muslim world.
Secondly, his feeling was that many younger Muslims looked at Israel with a sense of envy. It's one of the few places in the middle east with no oil. Yet, Israel is comparatively affluent, entrepreneurial, democratic and (before the religious right in Israel really started to assert itself) relatively free to speak and do as one wished. Many of those same young Muslims are angry because of things like the corruption of the various royal families, the limitations on their own abilities and, in many cases the poverty.
I didn't think about it until yesterday, but this is an interesting point. Exempting my BIL and his family, I knew about a dozen native Israelis in my early to mid 20s, all but 1 of them were pretty much secular. Over the last decade, the number of people I knew that either lived in Israel or had close ties to Israel grew to an additional 20-30. And by and large, the most religious or observant Jews in that group were all Americans who immigrated there as adults.
The transformation of Bibi as PM has been very disappointing, IMO. I had a lot of respect for him both in his first term and early in his recent tenure during his second and third terms. He is an incredibly intelligent man, in both education and real world, non political experience. He did fantastic things for the Israeli economy, was progressing in social matters, and had sensible opinions on a way forward with Palestinian interests. He was always hard line on terrorism and Israeli military might, but from an understandable place given his background. But he and his government have shifted so far over the last half decade or so that its been both disappointing and politically foolish/arrogant from a normally savvy political operator. Has he been influenced and pushed by Hamas and what they've done in the occupied territories over the last decade? Without a doubt. But for a formerly respected and experienced international statesman like him, he should be/know better
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 09, 2023, 12:15:53 PM
Iran and other countries have used religion as a fascade, he noted, but it's the anger over the relative affluence in Israel and the question, "why can't we have this," he noted.
As to other Muslim countries, they're doing nothing to reduce the anger and animosity of the Palestinians. With all of the oil wealth throughout the Middle East, one would think the oil-rich countries would use their wealth to reduce tension by making economic investment in Palestinian controlled lands in the Gaza strip. But such tension-reducing investment doesn't serve the shieks' best interests, which is destabilization by fostering a holy war. It's easier to stoke up the anger of a whole group of far-away Middle Eastern enthenticities than it is to deal with the weaknesses in your own country, the latter of which would lead to civil unrest were it not for the overriding anger toward the Jewish people in Isreal.
That's why I believe Iran stoked up the Palestinians. Things have been a little uncomfortable for the mullahs as of late, so I'm convinced they sat down and said, "let's start another holy war and unite the people." And, if they can draw in the great satan, all the better.
I know this sounds stupid but it's the middle east. Nothing there makes sense to the Western mind!
There is some really good insight in here. I read a really good Twitter thread over the weekend speaking to some of the same.
Look at the stark difference in the mentality of places like UAE/Bahrain as a result of the Abraham Accords, and moving forward, against somewhere like Iran or Lebanon or Syria. The hardcore fundamentalists of the Middle East view Palestine as their leverage and push point to fight their battle against the West and modernity.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 12:33:06 PM
Muggsy, this is entirely unfair and overly hysterical. I don't necessarily agree with everything with Pakuni has stated here, but we've been having a civil, educated exchange. He's been fair and evenhanded. Nothing remotely disgusting. Save that sort of outrage for the groups in the US celebrating this weekend or people who immediately justify or brush away Hamas' actions stating that its "Israel's fault, they deserved this", nothing of which he even implied.
This is complete false equivalency JWags. And btw we have American hostages there, dead Americans, and 200K Americans that live in Israel. Hamas through the support of Iran are pure evil.
You want to lnow why Gaza has been a s-show since '07? It's 90% because of Hamas, Iran and the PA. The truth is since '47 every single deal for peace that has been put on the table has been rejected by Palestinian leadership.
The Israeli government is not blameless but Iran is a Terrorist State and Hamas members are utter scumbags. Period. Israel is now caught between a rock and a hard place because there is no way to protect their country without obliterating areas where Hamas and other terrorists are operated.
Additionally, we should immediately seize that 6B we gave to Iran, destroy their disgusting leadership and cripple them permanently.
And for those of you who do not think their is blatant antisemitism from the far left listen to the responses from Talib, Omar, AOC, Whitmer, etc. They are the most asinine comments I've ever heard. And where exactly is our President? We have dead Americans there and American hostages there. He must address our nation. Immediately.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 12:15:24 PM
This is a good call out. Hames =/= Palestine. And Palestinians are just a puppet for Hamas. Which makes this so incredibly difficult to navigate. Hamas would sacrifice the life of every Palestinian civilian if it meant Israel's demise. A free Palestine is as much a freedom from Hamas/Hezbollah as it is a freedom from Israel. While much focus is placed on the latter, it simply cannot occur without the former.
I don't think its an unfortunate accident, but I just think the aim is exceedingly different. If Hamas was launching their attacks from Egypt or Syria, with no presence in Gaza, IDF wouldn't be blasting civilians in Gaza right now for the hell of it. Look at the difference in deaths year by year in Gaza vs the West Bank.
Tangentially related, its a bit raw so maybe now is not the time, but this situation makes me recommend that everyone should watch Fauda. Granted its an Israeli show co-created by a former IDF Special Forces soldier, but it gives a fairly intricate look into the nature of the daily military conflict, casts a fair eye to the suffering of Palestinians caught in the middle, and just how grey it all is.
I would agree, except that Hamas is the majority elected ruling party in Palestine. And they have an outsized impact on everything regarding the Palestinian people. And many pro-Palestinian groups support Hamas' terrorist efforts on Palestine's "behalf"
Less than 45% of the vote, 17 years ago.
Muggsy, are you calling for an open US war on Iran?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:08:42 PM
Additionally, we should immediately seize that 6B we gave to Iran, destroy their disgusting leadership and cripple them permanently.
Yep, let's go fight another war in the Middle East - this time with a country of nearly 90 million.
Rational and even-tempered as always.
And again, we haven't given Iran a dime, no matter how many times you choose to post that lie.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 09, 2023, 01:16:23 PM
Muggsy, are you calling for an open US war on Iran?
He's made it clear the value of American lives isn't important to him when it comes to revisionist history and war
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
Yep, let's go fight another war in the Middle East - this time with a country of nearly 90 million.
Rational and even-tempered as always.
Right. Anyone who things we are going to cause regime change in Iran is kidding themselves.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 01:20:40 PM
He's made it clear the value of American lives isn't important to him when it comes to revisionist history and war
Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES. That's my opinion.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:23:49 PM
Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES. That's my opinion.
Why not let Israel do that?
And do you not believe killing their leadership and destroying their economy is tantamount to a full declaration of war?
Lastly, what are my views?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:23:49 PM
Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES. That's my opinion.
Then you're an idiot
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
Yep, let's go fight another war in the Middle East - this time with a country of nearly 90 million.
Rational and even-tempered as always.
And again, we haven't given Iran a dime, no matter how many times you choose to post that lie.
It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:26:19 PM
It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.
Idiotic
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:26:19 PM
It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.
Lmao who knew Muggsy had the answer to literally every conflict out there. Just hit the key targets and they won't fight back.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:26:19 PM
It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.
Someone has read too many Tom Clancy novels.
Again, why not let Israel fight their own war here? Thanks to us, they have one of the best equipped and trained militaries in the world, and by far the best in the Middle East. Why should we do this for them?
Also, what are my views?
Quote from: shoothoops on October 09, 2023, 01:15:49 PM
Less than 45% of the vote, 17 years ago.
Mixed voting, 132 seats needed for victory, they received 74...a majority. And they've been allowed to run rampant over Fateh and the political landscape for the better part of 2 decades. If you think an election, thats been pushed off for 2 decades,would lead to Hamas' dismissal, that's your opinion, but recent polling doesn't seem to support that.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 01:22:31 PM
Right. Anyone who things we are going to cause regime change in Iran is kidding themselves.
I think the only ones to force a regime change in Iran is an Israel/SA alliance, hence why Iran is trying to do whatever they can to destroy those relations
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:23:49 PM
Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES. That's my opinion.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 01:26:19 PM
It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.
Oh good lord....
Regarding Muggsy, at some point when a poster contributes nothing but drivel to a conversation shouldn't we not allow him/her to post in the thread?
Others who are posting thoughtful and well-reasoned information. Thank you. I have to read through a lot of junk, but I am learning something from you.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 01:33:00 PM
I think the only ones to force a regime change in Iran is an Israel/SA alliance, hence why Iran is trying to do whatever they can to destroy those relations
Or an internal revolution.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on October 09, 2023, 01:42:02 PM
Regarding Muggsy, at some point when a poster contributes nothing but drivel to a conversation shouldn't we not allow him/her to post in the thread?
Others who are posting thoughtful and well-reasoned information. Thank you. I have to read through a lot of junk, but I am learning something from you.
The idea we can just take out the Iranian leadership ignores all of the following:
1. Cost
2. Cost of innocent human lives and American lives
3. Vacuum creating what exactly? How has it worked in Afghanistan and Iraq?
4. International relations beyond the Middle East. Do we have a coalition onboard? Are we doing this unilaterally?
5. Why stop at Iran? Why not Russia and China?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 01:42:05 PM
Or an internal revolution.
I think it needs to be a combination of the two factors, honestly. Given the recent revolution/uprising that resulted in nothing grand and a government stable enough to pull the stunts they did this weekend, I worry internal won't be enough.
And like Rico said without an internal counterforce, regime change from external forces creates a problematic vacuum.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 01:45:04 PM
The idea we can just take out the Iranian leadership ignores all of the following:
1. Cost
2. Cost of innocent human lives and American lives
3. Vacuum creating what exactly? How has it worked in Afghanistan and Iraq?
4. International relations beyond the Middle East. Do we have a coalition onboard? Are we doing this unilaterally?
5. Why stop at Iran? Why not Russia and China?
Yeah, one doesn't have to look very deep into history to see why this is a terrible idea. And Afghanistan and Iraq would look like walks in the park compared to Iran. Iran's military is probably one of the top 20 in the world - probably on par with Israel right now.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 01:48:59 PM
Yeah, one doesn't have to look very deep into history to see why this is a terrible idea. And Afghanistan and Iraq would look like walks in the park compared to Iran. Iran's military is probably one of the top 20 in the world - probably on par with Israel right now.
And if we're wiping out Iranian leadership because they support Hamas and Hezbollah and their terroristic organizations, why stop there? Not worried about Saudi's supporting terrorist organizations? Take them out, too
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 01:06:13 PM
The transformation of Bibi as PM has been very disappointing, IMO. I had a lot of respect for him both in his first term and early in his recent tenure during his second and third terms. He is an incredibly intelligent man, in both education and real world, non political experience. He did fantastic things for the Israeli economy, was progressing in social matters, and had sensible opinions on a way forward with Palestinian interests. He was always hard line on terrorism and Israeli military might, but from an understandable place given his background. But he and his government have shifted so far over the last half decade or so that its been both disappointing and politically foolish/arrogant from a normally savvy political operator. Has he been influenced and pushed by Hamas and what they've done in the occupied territories over the last decade? Without a doubt. But for a formerly respected and experienced international statesman like him, he should be/know better
I couldn't have said this better myself. Bibi has become dangerous - including to his own people. My brother went from being a huge proponent of Bibi's to wishing Bibi would just go away. The only thing I'll add to your excellent summary is that Bibi also has been influenced by American leaders, one in particular. It's not quite a Giuliani-esque fall from grace, though, because Bibi still has real power.
Quote from: MU82 on October 09, 2023, 01:57:43 PM
I couldn't have said this better myself. Bibi has become dangerous - including to his own people. My brother went from being a huge proponent of Bibi's to wishing Bibi would just go away. The only thing I'll add to your excellent summary is that Bibi also has been influenced by American leaders, one in particular. It's not quite a Giuliani-esque fall from grace, though, because Bibi still has real power.
I would argue Trump was influenced by Bibi more than the other way around.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 01:48:29 PM
I think it needs to be a combination of the two factors, honestly. Given the recent revolution/uprising that resulted in nothing grand and a government stable enough to pull the stunts they did this weekend, I worry internal won't be enough.
And like Rico said without an internal counterforce, regime change from external forces creates a problematic vacuum.
I agree with most of this. But ironically I also think the Iranian people have a larger appetite for democratization and even Westernization than perhaps any other middle eastern country. Every time they begin to agitate, the theocratic establishment's form of death rattle is to stir up international controversy, knowing the West will take the bait, and in turn credentialize the status quo. This is why the US perception that international affairs is tantamount to dick measuring triggers me so much. It takes a deft hand to navigate that, but there isn't a political incentive domestically to do anything but "look tough."
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 09, 2023, 02:10:41 PM
I would argue Trump was influenced by Bibi more than the other way around.
I agree with this. Appealing to his vainglory accomplishes a lot for those attempting dilplomacy. Netanyahu is many things. Dumb isn't one of them and he plays the game as well as anyone
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 01:42:05 PM
Or an internal revolution.
That would be ideal, but also has plenty of pitfalls. One look at Syria shows how that can go sideways and lead to an even worse situation.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 09, 2023, 02:10:41 PM
I would argue Trump was influenced by Bibi more than the other way around.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 02:22:52 PM
I agree with this. Appealing to his vainglory accomplishes a lot for those attempting dilplomacy. Netanyahu is many things. Dumb isn't one of them and he plays the game as well as anyone
Fair.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on October 09, 2023, 01:42:02 PM
Regarding Muggsy, at some point when a poster contributes nothing but drivel to a conversation shouldn't we not allow him/her to post in the thread?
Others who are posting thoughtful and well-reasoned information. Thank you. I have to read through a lot of junk, but I am learning something from you.
Put him on ignore or skip past when you see his name. Better than canceling a poster IMHO.
Folks, you all forget something.
Nothing short of the elimination of Israel as a state and slaughter of every Jew in the country will please Hamas and their masters in Teheran. Ditto for Hezbollah and their masters, probably in Damascas. Neither Israel itself nor the United States will allow the only free market, democratic country in the Middle East to fall.
There's a reason Dimona exists. Israel's survival in a hostile world is it!
We will not allow Israel to fall, period.
No amount of extreme rhetoric on either side of the U.S. political spectrum will change our relationship with Israel. Harry Truman made the U.S. the first country to recognize Israel. Lyndon Johnson made sure the Israelis had what they needed to beat back belligerants in the Six Day War. Richard Nixon created an oil crisis by resupplying Israel in 1973. And on and on and on. People mistake family quarrels for something more than they are. They're not. Our country will protect Israel as if it was our own territory. That won't change.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 09, 2023, 02:31:42 PM
Folks, you all forget something.
Nothing short of the elimination of Israel as a state and slaughter of every Jew in the country will please Hamas and their masters in Teheran. Ditto for Hezbollah and their masters, probably in Damascas. Neither Israel itself nor the United States will allow the only free market, democratic country in the Middle East to fall.
There's a reason Dimona exists. Israel's survival in a hostile world is it!
We will not allow Israel to fall, period.
No amount of extreme rhetoric on either side of the U.S. political spectrum will change our relationship with Israel. Harry Truman made the U.S. the first country to recognize Israel. Lyndon Johnson made sure the Israelis had what they needed to beat back belligerants in the Six Day War. Richard Nixon created an oil crisis by resupplying Israel in 1973. And on and on and on. People mistake family quarrels for something more than they are. They're not. Our country will protect Israel as if it was our own territory. That won't change.
Of course. The voting bloc is too important not to
Quote from: MU82 on October 09, 2023, 02:27:28 PM
Fair.
Put him on ignore or skip past when you see his name. Better than canceling a poster IMHO.
As long as he knows his antics aren't welcome in this thread that's probably enough for me.
Not looking to cancel anyone. You want to be a dip sh!!t in the NM thread, go for it. Leave threads like this for the grown ups.
Free speech. He is free to be wrong. You are free to call him on it and judge him for it.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 02:35:02 PM
Of course. The voting bloc is too important not to
Brother Rico, you really believe this?
The Jewish population is heavily concentrated in Illinois, New York, New Jersey, California and Florida. There are significant but not overwhelming Jewish populations in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Maryland as well. The belief that somehow the Jewish population is a swing voting block is nestled in the quaint notion that any of these states with significant Jewish populations are in play. Almost none -- not even Florida -- are likely in play.
A long time ago, when Republicans had more than a snowball's chance in hell of capturing New York and Illinois, I might have agreed with you. But not now.
Even if every Jewish person in each state either stayed home or voted Republican (Democratic in Florida and the belief is they already vote Democratic in our state), the only states where the Jewish vote would have a material impact on a presidential election would, possibly, be Pennsylvania. Even there, the Jewish population is but 3.3 percent of the state's population. Nationally, the 2022 census estimate found 7.4 million Jews, or 2.2 percent of the total population. Also, this assumes Jews vote as a block and I don't think they go to synagogue to be told how to vote!
Finally, if you folks are going to go all Scoop on me, here's my source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-in-the-united-states-by-state.
The United States supports Israel because we support Democracies around the world and because Israel has stood with us in fighting terrorism. Israel has been a strong ally of the United States and that's not likely to change.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 09, 2023, 02:55:15 PM
Brother Rico, you really believe this?
The Jewish population is heavily concentrated in Illinois, New York, New Jersey, California and Florida. There are significant but not overwhelming Jewish populations in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Maryland as well. The belief that somehow the Jewish population is a swing voting block is nestled in the quaint notion that any of these states with significant Jewish populations are in play. Almost none -- not even Florida -- are likely in play.
A long time ago, when Republicans had more than a snowball's chance in hell of capturing New York and Illinois, I might have agreed with you. But not now.
Even if every Jewish person in each state either stayed home or voted Republican (Democratic in Florida and the belief is they already vote Democratic in our state), the only states where the Jewish vote would have a material impact on a presidential election would, possibly, be Pennsylvania. Even there, the Jewish population is but 3.3 percent of the state's population. Nationally, the 2022 census estimate found 7.4 million Jews, or 2.2 percent of the total population. Also, this assumes Jews vote as a block and I don't think they go to synagogue to be told how to vote!
Finally, if you folks are going to go all Scoop on me, here's my source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-in-the-united-states-by-state.
The United States supports Israel because we support Democracies around the world and because Israel has stood with us in fighting terrorism. Israel has been a strong ally of the United States and that's not likely to change.
The voting bloc Rico is referring to is not just the Jewish population.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 08:55:01 AM
I believe it is noted dental philosopher 4ever who said something about electing the same people over and over.
Relevant.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8AloHmWMAEGWm0?format=jpg&name=medium)
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 01:48:59 PM
Iran's military is probably one of the top 20 in the world
Number 34 per Pomeroy.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 09, 2023, 03:34:30 PM
Number 34 per Pomeroy.
They had a weak SoS ... not sure how they stack up against a Power 5.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 09, 2023, 02:55:15 PM
Brother Rico, you really believe this?
The Jewish population is heavily concentrated in Illinois, New York, New Jersey, California and Florida. There are significant but not overwhelming Jewish populations in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Maryland as well. The belief that somehow the Jewish population is a swing voting block is nestled in the quaint notion that any of these states with significant Jewish populations are in play. Almost none -- not even Florida -- are likely in play.
A long time ago, when Republicans had more than a snowball's chance in hell of capturing New York and Illinois, I might have agreed with you. But not now.
Even if every Jewish person in each state either stayed home or voted Republican (Democratic in Florida and the belief is they already vote Democratic in our state), the only states where the Jewish vote would have a material impact on a presidential election would, possibly, be Pennsylvania. Even there, the Jewish population is but 3.3 percent of the state's population. Nationally, the 2022 census estimate found 7.4 million Jews, or 2.2 percent of the total population. Also, this assumes Jews vote as a block and I don't think they go to synagogue to be told how to vote!
Finally, if you folks are going to go all Scoop on me, here's my source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-in-the-united-states-by-state.
The United States supports Israel because we support Democracies around the world and because Israel has stood with us in fighting terrorism. Israel has been a strong ally of the United States and that's not likely to change.
We support democracies around the world, huh? That would be news to some. We also support a lot of nations that aren't democracies.
We support Israel because politicians and the parties want the votes
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 01:48:59 PM
Yeah, one doesn't have to look very deep into history to see why this is a terrible idea. And Afghanistan and Iraq would look like walks in the park compared to Iran. Iran's military is probably one of the top 20 in the world - probably on par with Israel right now.
The comps to Afghanistan and Iraq armies I certainly agree with. When it comes to Iran, I don't think there is gonna be another Republican Guard paper tiger that gets rolled over. But Iran's military strength comes from pure numbers and ground capabilities. But in a conflict in 2023-2024 you could argue the two most important elements are aerial strength and intelligence/counter intelligence, two areas you'd probably pencil them in as having significant superiority to Iran. Israel's Air Force probably only trails the US and Russia and we all know how proficient Mossad is at what they do.
But this is all academic as there's very little chance Israel is going to full on hot war with Iran and if so, things have gotten VERY bad.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 03:59:57 PM
We support Israel because politicians and the parties want the votes
Thats a bit reductionist, IMO. Israel support has 1000% become a political lever and cudgel but I think support for Israel, at its root, is the support of another young democratic republic with ideals representing a lot of similarities to what the US was built on. Not to mention the regular migration of Jewish families back and forth.
Its not like Israel is Singapore or another younger country that shares very little with US ideals.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 03:59:57 PM
We support democracies around the world, huh? That would be news to some. We also support a lot of nations that aren't democracies.
We support Israel because politicians and the parties want the votes
This is fking absurd.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 09:09:44 AM
This was debunked pages ago. Keep up.
i just said it was "weird" for those of you in rio linda...
the part that killed it for me was when iran was asked if they were using any of the $6 bil for bombs and rockets, they said, heck no, whatyda think we are? barbarians err sumpin?
so there ya have it right from the men of cloth
i feel so much better knowing that iran agreed to only use that $6 billion for "humanitarian purposes".
with iran being compassionate philanthropists they are, i just hope that's enough to get them thru a few months or so of feeding the poor and clothing the naked
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 04:26:03 PM
i just said it was "weird" for those of you in rio linda...
the part that killed it for me was when iran was asked if they were using any of the $6 bil for bombs and rockets, they said, heck no, whatyda think we are? barbarians err sumpin?
so there ya have it right from the men of cloth
i feel so much better knowing that iran agreed to only use that $6 billion for "humanitarian purposes".
with iran being compassionate philanthropists they are, i just hope that's enough to get them thru a few months or so of feeding the poor and clothing the naked
You realize that they have none of that money right?
And do you realize it wasn't our money to give to them? It is their money that has been frozen in accounts in South Korea.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
This is fking absurd.
That we support democracies across the globe? Might want to let some of our political leaders know that.
That we support nations that aren't democracies? Might want to let some of our political leaders know that.
That we support Israel simply because it's a democracy? Naivete.
Hope the info mossad is sharing with us is better than what they had this past weekend when we implement your plan to wipe Iranian leadership out
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 04:17:22 PM
The comps to Afghanistan and Iraq armies I certainly agree with. When it comes to Iran, I don't think there is gonna be another Republican Guard paper tiger that gets rolled over. But Iran's military strength comes from pure numbers and ground capabilities. But in a conflict in 2023-2024 you could argue the two most important elements are aerial strength and intelligence/counter intelligence, two areas you'd probably pencil them in as having significant superiority to Iran. Israel's Air Force probably only trails the US and Russia and we all know how proficient Mossad is at what they do.
But you aren't doing "regime change" unless you occupy the country. We tried doing the air power thing ineffectively for years in Iraq (remember No Fly Zones?), only to finally invade to get rid of Saddam (greeted as liberators!), and it still turned into a disaster.
Iran would be significantly worse.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 04:26:03 PM
i just said it was "weird" for those of you in rio linda...
the part that killed it for me was when iran was asked if they were using any of the $6 bil for bombs and rockets, they said, heck no, whatyda think we are? barbarians err sumpin?
so there ya have it right from the men of cloth
i feel so much better knowing that iran agreed to only use that $6 billion for "humanitarian purposes".
with iran being compassionate philanthropists they are, i just hope that's enough to get them thru a few months or so of feeding the poor and clothing the naked
Sigh.
This isn't, er, rocket science.
$6 billion was not given to Iran. Not one penny has been given to Iran. Money was moved from a restricted account in South Korea to a restricted account in Qatar. That money, if spent, will be paid directly to vendors selling Iran food, medicine and other humanitarian goods. Iran will never lay a finger on it. They can't ask for $500 million for humanitarian purchases, then go buy missiles with that money on the sly. They don't control the money.
Think of it like a trust account set up for suddenly orphaned child. That child won't simply be cut a check to spend as they please. A trustee will control the money and spend it on the child's needs. Same thing here. Iran is the child. The U.S. Treasury is the trustee.
Sorry that doesn't fiy your narrative but it is what it is.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 04:35:20 PM
Sigh.
This isn't, er, rocket science.
$6 billion was not given to Iran. Not one penny has been given to Iran. Money was moved from a restricted account in South Korea to a restricted account in Qatar. That money, if spent, will be paid directly to vendors selling Iran food, medicine and other humanitarian goods. Iran will never lay a finger on it. They can't ask for $500 million for humanitarian purchases, then go buy missiles with that money on the sly. They don't control the money.
Think of it like a trust account set up for suddenly orphaned child. That child won't simply be cut a check to spend as they please. A trustee will control the money and spend it on the child's needs. Same thing here.
Sorry that doesn't fiy your narrative but it is what it is.
Good try, Pak, but roQQet NEEDS that $6B to already have been spent on bombs used against Israelis. Facts aren't relevant, silly!
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 04:32:47 PM
But you aren't doing "regime change" unless you occupy the country. We tried doing the air power thing ineffectively for years in Iraq (remember No Fly Zones?), only to finally invade to get rid of Saddam (greeted as liberators!), and it still turned into a disaster.
Iran would be significantly worse.
Who takes over in Iran? What's the plan of succession? I love the idea of Iranian freedom and democracy. But it's just an idea and it's pure folly to believe America can remove the current leadership and provide a framework of democracy and expect it to spring forth because we provided the opportunity.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 04:17:22 PM
But in a conflict in 2023-2024 you could argue the two most important elements are aerial strength and intelligence/counter intelligence, two areas you'd probably pencil them in as having significant superiority to Iran. Israel's Air Force probably only trails the US and Russia and we all know how proficient Mossad is at what they do.
Doesn't Russia's experience in Ukraine kind of belie the importance of air superiority, particularly in a war seeking regime change?
As for the Mossad, their reputation suffered a pretty big blow this weekend. This wasn't 17 guys boarding four airplanes. They completely whiffed on a coordinated attack involving hundreds of fighters crossing over multiple points in what should be one of the most heavily guarded borders in the world.
Heads should roll.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
This is fking absurd.
It is not, Iran is what it is right now because we toppled their elected government... a democracy because BP was concerned they might use their own resources.
We've also overthrow. One or two Guatemalan democratically elected officials, one at the bequest of a fruit company.
Oh and supported the military overthrow of Isabel Peron who was an elected VP of her husband when died.
Let's also not forget it's become in vogue for one of the two parties in this country to candidly support Russia or in the least give credence to its invasion of Ukraine.
I'm sure there's more instances but if there isn't that should show we don't have any problems with not supporting a democracy when it is in our best interest. Supporting Israel is in our best interest because it gives us a strong middle eastern ally that isn't a direct threat or competitor. It has nothing to do with them being a democracy.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 09, 2023, 04:54:41 PM
It is not, Iran is what it is right now because we toppled their elected government... a democracy because BP was concerned they might use their own resources.
We've also overthrow. One or two Guatemalan democratically elected officials, one at the bequest of a fruit company.
Oh and supported the military overthrow of Isabel Peron who was an elected VP of her husband when died.
Let's also not forget it's become in vogue for one of the two parties in this country to candidly support Russia or in the least give credence to its invasion of Ukraine.
I'm sure there's more instances but if there isn't that should show we don't have any problems with not supporting a democracy when it is in our best interest. Supporting Israel is in our best interest because it gives us a strong middle eastern ally that isn't a direct threat or competitor. It has nothing to do with them being a democracy.
The modern history of Iran was set in motion by American and western policy towards it
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 04:35:20 PM
Sigh.
This isn't, er, rocket science.
$6 billion was not given to Iran. Not one penny has been given to Iran. Money was moved from a restricted account in South Korea to a restricted account in Qatar. That money, if spent, will be paid directly to vendors selling Iran food, medicine and other humanitarian goods. Iran will never lay a finger on it. They can't ask for $500 million for humanitarian purchases, then go buy missiles with that money on the sly. They don't control the money.
Think of it like a trust account set up for suddenly orphaned child. That child won't simply be cut a check to spend as they please. A trustee will control the money and spend it on the child's needs. Same thing here. Iran is the child. The U.S. Treasury is the trustee.
Sorry that doesn't fiy your narrative but it is what it is.
actually...thank you for this pakman!
btw, i was never good at rocket science, just the surgery part, hence...
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 04:59:06 PM
actually...thank you for this pakman!
btw, i was never good at rocket science, just the surgery part, hence...
You're welcome,
And, to be fair, there is a not-totally-wrong argument to be made that allowing Iran to use this $6 billion on food and medicine frees up money elsewhere to spend on weaponry. I don't think that's entirely wrong, but probably overstated.
History tells us that Iran is going to spend on weapons regardless, even if that means not spending on food and medicine. When it comes to guns or butter, they choose guns. So, this isn't really a matter of allowing them to chose guns over butter, but rather allowing guns and butter.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 04:26:03 PM
i just said it was "weird" for those of you in rio linda...
the part that killed it for me was when iran was asked if they were using any of the $6 bil for bombs and rockets, they said, heck no, whatyda think we are? barbarians err sumpin?
so there ya have it right from the men of cloth
i feel so much better knowing that iran agreed to only use that $6 billion for "humanitarian purposes".
with iran being compassionate philanthropists they are, i just hope that's enough to get them thru a few months or so of feeding the poor and clothing the naked
I think both are true, and we are all a little naive from our keyboards outside the Middle East. The US will try to make sure the funds are used for what the US determines is humanitarian aid. The Iranians will use it for what they deem humanitarian, and I'm sure protection of their people is top of their list. Both governments are grandstanding, both are trying to display BDE as it were, both care more about themselves and their power than the populace.
We are all getting lost in the propaganda and are being desensitized to the atrocities. If our reactions to what has happened in Israel and Palestine is to argue who is at fault or argue which atrocity is worse, our empathy is being ripped from our being. Actually, we are allowing our empathy to be taken from us. We cannot let that happen or we all will suffer.
Hamas is, as someone else stated, just deplorable. They have been a terrorist organization for the last 50 years, whose main goal is to eliminate the Jewish population. The attack on Israel has resulted in 1,000 dead, with almost half of the deaths coming at the hands of Hamas militants on the ground killing individuals face to face. Hamas crossed the border on foot and in cars and began going house to house. They slaughtered families, and took the women out of their homes. The horror at the music festival is now coming in view, with almost 300 dead and numerous hostages taken, the majority of whom are women. Many of the victims took shelter in a bomb shelter and were all executed. Barbaric actions all over the country.
The rockets being utilized by Hamas are small in a military ordinance sense, but the shear number of them have been effective, causing destruction and casualties in Israel.
There was a saying years ago by some talking head military member, who stated don't piss off Israel. Well, I guess they are pissed off. Israel is conducting a strategic process right now. They have blocked the sea with a naval brigade, are conducting strikes on every electrical station, every water pumping station, electronic communication complex and sites where the Hamas rockets are being fired from. No food, no electric, no water and communications for Gaza. The troops are starting to deploy at the borders.
Gaza is an extremely small piece of land, which consists mainly of buildings and is the second most densely populated country in the world with 2 million people. Unlike the Taliban, Hamas has no rural regions/mountains to hide their weapons/arsenal, and as like 4ever stated, they utilize apartments, mosques, hospitals and schools to hide not only their weapons, but their control and command. The Taliban went hiding in the mountains, Hamas has no where to go. Israel's Mossad probably had intelligence as to where, and now are striking these targets with 500 and 1,000 pound bombs, in attempt to eliminate. Hamas has no 500 and 1,000 pound bombs. There will be many Gaza citizen deaths, but Israel has to neutralize the threats prior to entering with troops. Mossad is one of the best intel agencies in the world and how they missed the attack is unreal. Another topic for later.
Hamas has no structured army, no Air Force, no navy, as Israel has. The Israeli troops will have an urban warfare situation when they enter and Israel actually has a training facility for urban warfare in which all IDF goes through the training. Very dangerous for the Israeli forces when they start to enter. I guess the US is sending replacement missiles for the Iron Dome system, since Israel has used a boatload so far.
The hostage situation is complex and may be a turning point, even though Israel will assault Gaza no matter what.
Hamas has stated they are going to kill a hostage for every new Israel airstrike, film it and then publish the video. Eleven US citizens have died so far and reports say there are also US citizens captured. I can't imagine what would happen if Hamas started to execute any US hostages and sent the video out. Gaza is getting destroyed right now by Israeli air forces and drones. Hamas has no idea as to what destruction US cruise missiles would result in if the US would retaliate to an execution of US citizens. I hope it does not happen, but Hamas is just a horrendous, violent entity.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 04:32:04 PM
That we support democracies across the globe? Might want to let some of our political leaders know that.
That we support nations that aren't democracies? Might want to let some of our political leaders know that.
That we support Israel simply because it's a democracy? Naivete.
Hope the info mossad is sharing with us is better than what they had this past weekend when we implement your plan to wipe Iranian leadership out
We support Israel because of their right to exist as a Jewish State.
Quote from: nyg on October 09, 2023, 05:13:55 PM
Hamas has no idea as to what destruction US cruise missiles would result in if the US would retaliate to an execution of US citizens. I hope it does not happen, but Hamas is just a horrendous, violent entity.
Sorry, but if they execute a United States citizen, they deserve it.
If they do, I hope we level the place.
If Israel levels the place, and in the process kills one or more US citizens, then what?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 06:01:55 PM
We support Israel because of their right to exist as a Jewish State.
So, not because they're a democracy? Which is it? Is that why we don't fully support Ukraine? It doesn't have a right to exist?
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 09, 2023, 06:02:44 PM
Sorry, but if they execute a United States citizen, they deserve it.
If they do, I hope we level the place.
I meant I hope a US citizen is not executed, not if 3,000 pound ordinance cruise missiles destroy Gaza.
If so, I hope the US knows the location of the hostages and avoids such a tragic incident.
We'll rest assured that at least we now have someone in office who's "forte" or specialty was foreign affairs, going to bring peace and "sensibility", decency, unity to the world and previous guy was such a threat to world?
So yup, we're in good hands where ever he is
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
This is fking absurd.
A direct attack on Iran would mean that Israel gets wiped off the map. Israel is not a very large country.
Hezbollah has 150,000 guided missiles. Israel doesn't have enough missiles for the Iron dome to stop that. And don't forget the missiles Iran would be firing.
A direct and serious attack on Iran would mean that Hezbollah and Iran launch everything they have to level Israel.
Israel attacking Iran, or us attacking Iran is a losing proposition for everyone.
I'm just hoping the Hezbollah does not seriously enter the fray.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 06:16:40 PM
We'll rest assured that at least we now have someone in office who's "forte" or specialty was foreign affairs, going to bring peace and "sensibility", decency, unity to the world and previous guy was such a threat to world?
So yup, we're in good hands where ever he is
The last guy supported the colossal failure Netanyahu is who just saw his country attacked because he's too busy trying to strengthen his power by undermining all levels of Israel government to protect himself from jail for corruption.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 06:21:43 PM
The last guy supported the colossal failure Netanyahu is who just saw his country attacked because he's too busy trying to strengthen his power by undermining all levels of Israel government to protect himself from jail for corruption.
Luckily that doesn't matter. Jared fixed the Mideast for only $2bil.
Quote from: dgies9156 on October 09, 2023, 06:02:44 PM
Sorry, but if they execute a United States citizen, they deserve it.
If they do, I hope we level the place.
Brother dgies,
This is an extremely difficult war for Israel, especially if Hezbollah gets involved in the North. As far as the hostages I'm afraid freeing them is going to be inordinately difficult. If Hezbollah gets involved I think the US has to help. We are already seeing that Israel will be blamed for responding at all, let alone using unrelenting force which will obviously lead to civilian casualties.
As far as Iran is concerned the fact is they are making money hand over fist in their oil revenues because we have not enforced sanctions. The 6B in ransom money isn't particularly relevant to their overall revenues used solely for terror and death.
Appeasement is the absolute worst solution to dealing with a regime like Iran and their terrorist proxies. I know some don't want to hear this but the right decision is to immediately cripple them economically, seize their oil fields, and obliterate their nuclear facilities. I would also, in concert with Israel, use a Delta Force to introduce Iranian leadership to darkness in due time.
In fact Im not against annexing the country and telling the other Arab states to go fk themselves. The idea that they care one iota about Palestinians is an absolute joke. They unfortunately are pawns. This is not just a battle between Israel and Hamas/Iran and other Islamic terrorists, it's a battle between the West and Islamic Terrorism. Within a month, if I was in charge, we would control all oil refineries in Iran and completely eliminate their evil partners.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 06:21:43 PM
The last guy supported the colossal failure Netanyahu is who just saw his country attacked because he's too busy trying to strengthen his power by undermining all levels of Israel government to protect himself from jail for corruption.
Is that why this happened? Shoot, haven't seen that written anywhere except maybe mother jones and messnbc. We'll screw em then...at least the white supremacists and MAGA peeps are under control- those are the worst
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 06:24:35 PM
Brother dgies,
This is an extremely difficult war for Israel, especially if Hezbollah gets involved in the North. As far as the hostages I'm afraid freeing them is going to be inordinately difficult. If Hezbollah gets involved I think the US has to help. We are already seeing that Israel will be blamed for responding at all, let alone using unrelenting force which will obviously lead to civilian casualties.
As far as Iran is concerned the fact is they are making money hand over fist in their oil revenues because we have not enforced sanctions. The 6B in ransom money isn't particularly relevant to their overall revenues used solely for terror and death.
Appeasement is the absolute worst solution to dealing with a regime like Iran and their terrorist proxies. I know some don't want to hear this but the right decision is to immediately cripple them economically, seize their oil fields, and obliterate their nuclear facilities. I would also, in concert with Israel, use a Delta Force to introduce Iranian leadership to darkness in due time.
In fact Im not against annexing the country and telling the other Arab states to go fk themselves. The idea that they care one iota about Palestinians is an absolute joke. They unfortunately are pawns. This is not just a battle between Israel and Hamas/Iran and other Islamic terrorists, it's a battle between the West and Islamic Terrorism. Within a month, if I was in charge, we would control all oil refineries in Iran and completely eliminate their evil partners.
Then you can spend the next 20 years meeting parents of dead soldiers at airports and visit the hospitals where severely injured soldiers are
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 06:28:13 PM
Is that why this happened? Shoot, haven't seen that written anywhere except maybe mother jones and messnbc. We'll screw em then...at least the white supremacists and MAGA peeps are under control- those are the worst
It didn't happen because of the current president or the former president. You'd have to be colossally stupid to blame either of them but certain people in this country embrace stupidity.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 06:29:31 PM
Then you can spend the next 20 years meeting parents of dead soldiers at airports and visit the hospitals where severely injured soldiers are
It's very sad that we have evil people on our planet and evil people that control certain countries and their citizens. War is ugly, doing essentially nothing in this situation is uglier. If Hezbollah gets involved the USA will have to act and help our friends. Now I get I'm more hawkish than the average person but these disgusting scumbags simply cannot be permitted to operate again nor exist on this planet.
How much of the U.S. artillery worth tens of millions of dollars, abandoned and left behind in Afghanistan by Biden, has found its way into the hands of Hamas?
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on October 09, 2023, 06:43:48 PM
How much of the U.S. artillery worth tens of millions of dollars, abandoned and left behind in Afghanistan by Biden, has found its way into the hands of Hamas?
That's an interesting question. I would imagine the Taliban has just kept all of it, to subjugate their own citizens and eliminate all freedoms of Afghan girls/women, but perhaps we can find out more information.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 06:30:51 PM
It didn't happen because of the current president or the former president. You'd have to be colossally stupid to blame either of them but certain people in this country embrace stupidity.
Gee reeko, you got blinkens number? He may need a little help from you smart people who probably put the doofus in chief in office. That was really smart what ya got up next? Mickey o?
blinken says Iran may not be involved so maybe they should refocus on those nasty boisterous parents at the school board meetings. Seeing as how there haven't been many school board meeting lately to exercise their terror, word is they headed for Israel to keep their game on
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 06:48:10 PM
Gee reeko, you got blinkens number? He may need a little help from you smart people who probably put the doofus in chief in office. That was really smart what ya got up next? Mickey o?
blinken says Iran may not be involved so maybe they should refocus on those nasty boisterous parents at the school board meetings. Seeing as how there haven't been many school board meeting lately to exercise their terror, word is they headed for Israel to keep their game on
I'm not surprised you don't understand history, much less the Middle East and think it's as simple as who is in the White House. That's ok. You're a perfect example of why it's time for boomers to move off the scene. It's your generation that is the first to leave the world in a worse place than the previous.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 06:47:43 PM
That's an interesting question. I would imagine the Taliban has just kept all of it, to subjugate their own citizens and eliminate all freedoms of Afghan girls/women, but perhaps we can find out more information.
America gave something like $7 (not $21) billion in arms to support Afghanistan democracy. The cost in lives to Americans and non-Americans wiping evil off the face of the earth in Afghanistan was worth it though. The results speak for themselves
I went away for awhile and this thread turned into a bunch of revenge fantasies.
And I say fantasies, because that's what they are. Fortunately.
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on October 09, 2023, 06:43:48 PM
How much of the U.S. artillery worth tens of millions of dollars, abandoned and left behind in Afghanistan by Biden, has found its way into the hands of Hamas?
Who cut that deal with the Taliban, Dickie?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 06:48:10 PM
Gee reeko, you got blinkens number? He may need a little help from you smart people who probably put the doofus in chief in office. That was really smart what ya got up next? Mickey o?
blinken says Iran may not be involved so maybe they should refocus on those nasty boisterous parents at the school board meetings. Seeing as how there haven't been many school board meeting lately to exercise their terror, word is they headed for Israel to keep their game on
Israel's defense forces themselves say there is no evidence or proof yet of Iranian involvement.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 06:29:31 PM
Then you can spend the next 20 years meeting parents of dead soldiers at airports and visit the hospitals where severely injured soldiers are
The first job of a government, any government, is to protect its people.
If you can't do that, then you have no business existing.
We're Americans. We take care of each other.
It's wild how right wing conspiracy theories filter into every political thread.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 06:24:35 PM
Brother dgies,
This is an extremely difficult war for Israel, especially if Hezbollah gets involved in the North. As far as the hostages I'm afraid freeing them is going to be inordinately difficult. If Hezbollah gets involved I think the US has to help. We are already seeing that Israel will be blamed for responding at all, let alone using unrelenting force which will obviously lead to civilian casualties.
As far as Iran is concerned the fact is they are making money hand over fist in their oil revenues because we have not enforced sanctions. The 6B in ransom money isn't particularly relevant to their overall revenues used solely for terror and death.
Appeasement is the absolute worst solution to dealing with a regime like Iran and their terrorist proxies. I know some don't want to hear this but the right decision is to immediately cripple them economically, seize their oil fields, and obliterate their nuclear facilities. I would also, in concert with Israel, use a Delta Force to introduce Iranian leadership to darkness in due time.
In fact Im not against annexing the country and telling the other Arab states to go fk themselves. The idea that they care one iota about Palestinians is an absolute joke. They unfortunately are pawns. This is not just a battle between Israel and Hamas/Iran and other Islamic terrorists, it's a battle between the West and Islamic Terrorism. Within a month, if I was in charge, we would control all oil refineries in Iran and completely eliminate their evil partners.
Muggsy, I know you're an excitable guy and this situation has clearly touched you emotionally, but might be a good time to take a beat and quite posting, cause this is unhinged.
The US has not been attacked, not declared war upon by anyone, and Iran has not directly engaged in any warfare, but yet you propose the US taking over their country, seizing their resources, and killing the leaders of a sovereign nation without provocation (while using the silly "introduce them to darkness" nonsense reserved for hypothetical boxing matchups or animal fights). And further proposing it in some fantastical Call of Duty plot level mission.
And to top it off, you think you could dispose the Iranian government and control their oil fields in A MONTH?! Did you confuse Iran with Kuwait or Azerbaijan?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 09, 2023, 07:24:51 PM
Israel's defense forces themselves say there is no evidence or proof yet of Iranian involvement.
They could have crates of rockets that say Property of Iran and a note that says "To Hamas. With love, Iran" and they wouldn't speak to Iranian involvement at this time. They have a direct and immediate conflict with Hamas on their doorstep to address. Inciting or inviting Iran to get involved with a statement like that isn't remotely smart or savvy
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 06:47:43 PM
That's an interesting question. I would imagine the Taliban has just kept all of it, to subjugate their own citizens and eliminate all freedoms of Afghan girls/women, but perhaps we can find out more information.
No, it is an idiotic question that has been debunked and what you imagine is just another manifestation of you leaping indiscriminately to the wrong conclusion.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us-taliban-arsenal-military-equipment/
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 09, 2023, 06:28:13 PM
Is that why this happened? Shoot, haven't seen that written anywhere except maybe mother jones and messnbc. We'll screw em then...at least the white supremacists and MAGA peeps are under control- those are the worst
Why do you enthusiastically support antisemites?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 08:08:38 PM
Muggsy, I know you're an excitable guy and this situation has clearly touched you emotionally, but might be a good time to take a beat and quite posting, cause this is unhinged.
The US has not been attacked, not declared war upon by anyone, and Iran has not directly engaged in any warfare, but yet you propose the US taking over their country, seizing their resources, and killing the leaders of a sovereign nation without provocation (while using the silly "introduce them to darkness" nonsense reserved for hypothetical boxing matchups or animal fights). And further proposing it in some fantastical Call of Duty plot level mission.
And to top it off, you think you could dispose the Iranian government and control their oil fields in A MONTH?! Did you confuse Iran with Kuwait or Azerbaijan?
They could have crates of rockets that say Property of Iran and a note that says "To Hamas. With love, Iran" and they wouldn't speak to Iranian involvement at this time. They have a direct and immediate conflict with Hamas on their doorstep to address. Inciting or inviting Iran to get involved with a statement like that isn't remotely smart or savvy
We have dead Americans and likely American hostages JWags. And 200K Americans in Israel. To suggest Iran isn't involved is absolutely ridiculous and their government is a utter s-show that is a total disaster for their own citizens, fInance Islamic Terrorism, and horror on the world at large. Fk their despicable leadership.
You're damn right we could take the Mullahs out and quickly. And Iranian citizens would benefit greatly along with the entire world.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:19:11 PM
We have dead Americans and likely American hostages JWags. And 200K Americans in Israel. To suggest Iran isn't involved is absolutely ridiculous and their government is a utter s-show that is a total disaster for their own citizens, fInance Islamic Terrorism, and horror on the world at large. Fk their despicable leadership.
You're damn right we could take the Mullahs out and quickly. And Iranian citizens would benefit greatly along with the entire world.
Again this is just blustery nonsense.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 08:22:32 PM
Again this is just blustery nonsense.
We could roll from Tehran through Moscow and Beijing, too. Go to Pyongyang as well
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 08:24:26 PM
We could roll from Tehran through Moscow and Beijing, too. Go to Pyongyang as well
It might be easier to just terraform Mars, move all Americans there, and not let anyone else come.
Quote from: forgetful on October 09, 2023, 08:25:49 PM
It might be easier to just terraform Mars, move all Americans there, and not let anyone else come.
Man, why do that to Mars?
Quote from: forgetful on October 09, 2023, 08:25:49 PM
It might be easier to just terraform Mars, move all Americans there, and not let anyone else come.
Now THIS is globalism.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:19:11 PM
And Iranian citizens would benefit greatly along with the entire world.
We'd be greeted as liberators?
Where have I heard that before ...
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 08:29:26 PM
We'd be greeted as liberators?
Where have I heard that before ...
Who gives a st? We've never used the type of hard power I am proposing.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:33:16 PM
Who gives a st? We've never used the type of hard power I am proposing.
Unhinged.
No I'm not Fluffy. Anyone who doesn't understand the gravity of this situation has zero understanding of the evil we have dealt with in tbe past or are dealing with now. I stand by 🇮🇱 1000%.
So I guess Biden's not been napping after all.
https://x.com/samstein/status/1711502903083434453?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 08:36:37 PM
So I guess Biden's not been napping after all.
https://x.com/samstein/status/1711502903083434453?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
Did he say anything about wiping Iran off the map and building a functioning democracy like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan? If not, not good enough. I stand with Israel 10000%
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:36:24 PM
No I'm not Fluffy. Anyone who doesn't understand the gravity of this situation has zero understanding of the evil we have dealt with in tbe past or are dealing with now. I stand by 🇮🇱 1000%.
I stand with Israel in this case too. That's why pretending that we could somehow replace their regime easy is utter nonsense. And any attempt like that causes Israel to no longer exist.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:33:16 PM
Who gives a st? We've never used the type of hard power I am proposing.
Will you be volunteering for this fight?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 04:42:40 PM
Doesn't Russia's experience in Ukraine kind of belie the importance of air superiority, particularly in a war seeking regime change?
As for the Mossad, their reputation suffered a pretty big blow this weekend. This wasn't 17 guys boarding four airplanes. They completely whiffed on a coordinated attack involving hundreds of fighters crossing over multiple points in what should be one of the most heavily guarded borders in the world.
Heads should roll.
Yes. Because Ukraine has proven that Russia 's air force sucks. It's a paper tiger.
They should be dominating Ukraine air space and practically has been a no show the entire war
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 04:32:04 PM
Hope the info mossad is sharing with us is better than what they had this past weekend when we implement your plan to wipe Iranian leadership out
There are a few articles this afternoon the surprise attack is a result of classified information Trump shared with the Russians in 2017.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 09, 2023, 08:44:51 PM
There are a few articles this afternoon the surprise attack is a result of classified information Trump shared with the Russians in 2017.
I'd prefer not to go down that road in this thread but the idea his recklessness isn't disqualifying is an indictment on the idea we take care of our fellow Americans.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 09, 2023, 08:38:53 PM
Will you be volunteering for this fight?
Meaning what? I'm not Denzel or Liam Neeson. But I will donate to a few organizations.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 09, 2023, 08:44:51 PM
There are a few articles this afternoon the surprise attack is a result of classified information Trump shared with the Russians in 2017.
Israel's intelligence failure is highly disturbing but this idea is far fetched.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:33:16 PM
Who gives a st? We've never used the type of hard power I am proposing.
My guess is you never served in the military. You know nothing. Just a typical wanna be tough guy.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:47:59 PM
Meaning what? I'm not Denzel or Liam Neeson. But I will donate to a few organizations.
Incredible
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:47:59 PM
Meaning what? I'm not Denzel or Liam Neeson. But I will donate to a few organizations.
Meaning you seem very passionate about what's happening over there and eager for a wider conflict and more bloodshed. Why not go help?
Quote from: forgetful on October 09, 2023, 08:25:49 PM
It might be easier to just terraform Mars, move all Americans there, and not let anyone else come.
I still wouldn't go to the Martian Mecca Sports Bar & Grille
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 08:52:44 PM
Incredible
"I am fully in support of invading Iran. I understand there will be sacrifices needed, so I'm going to send the Wounded Warrior Project $9.99 a month."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 08:55:42 PM
"I am fully in support of invading Iran. I understand there will be sacrifices needed, so I'm going to send the Wounded Warrior Project $9.99 a month."
That's $120 a year if you round up!
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:47:59 PM
Meaning what? I'm not Denzel or Liam Neeson. But I will donate to a few organizations.
Bone spurs flaring up?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 08:57:13 PM
That's $120 a year if you round up!
Well minus the $25 t-shirt they'll send him.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 09, 2023, 09:03:08 PM
Well minus the $25 t-shirt they'll send him.
Don't forget the window or bumper sticker
Quote from: JWags85 on October 09, 2023, 08:08:38 PM
They could have crates of rockets that say Property of Iran and a note that says "To Hamas. With love, Iran" and they wouldn't speak to Iranian involvement at this time. They have a direct and immediate conflict with Hamas on their doorstep to address. Inciting or inviting Iran to get involved with a statement like that isn't remotely smart or savvy
yes, more so some of the revenge driven raging hard ons for retribution and societal ruining violence against a power with past connections is frankly pretty alarming.
if you're someone who is safe from this conflict but is shouting "f*** around and find out" and cheering on the brutal retaliation and collateral damage, then you probably need to reevaluate how you got there. Perhaps Pray on it, I've heard that helps sometimes.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 09:06:25 PM
Don't forget the window or bumper sticker
Maybe a yellow ribbon or two to prove he really, really supports the troops.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 09, 2023, 10:54:36 PM
yes, more so some of the revenge driven raging hard ons for retribution and societal ruining violence against a power with past connections is frankly pretty alarming.
if you're someone who is safe from this conflict but is shouting "f*** around and find out" and cheering on the brutal retaliation and collateral damage, then you probably need to reevaluate how you got there. Perhaps Pray on it, I've heard that helps sometimes.
He was in Isreal until Friday morning, landing back in the US just a few hours before hostility broke out. He also has lots of family there.
So he is hardly an uninterested commentator on the subject.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 10, 2023, 12:20:25 AM
He was in Isreal until Friday morning, landing back in the US just a few hours before hostility broke out. He also has lots of family there.
So he is hardly an uninterested commentator on the subject.
And I have an Iranian friend. I'm waiting on DHS to get the download on the knowledge I got from the hivemind.
I'm not discounting the awareness of affairs there, and I generally agree you're not going to show your cards right now. But to imply involvement right now is premature.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 09, 2023, 08:36:24 PM
No I'm not Fluffy. Anyone who doesn't understand the gravity of this situation has zero understanding of the evil we have dealt with in tbe past or are dealing with now. I stand by 🇮🇱 1000%.
I hear you, I do, but part of the issue we all face is being 1000% behind something, it just doesn't make sense nor leave any room for dialog. Hamas is deplorable, their actions abhorrent. The worst thing we can do is retaliate with vengeance in the same manner. I feel your anger and pain.
Also, We used the bomb...twice, which I think is beyond the strong response you are calling for.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 10, 2023, 07:48:55 AM
I hear you, I do, but part of the issue we all face is being 1000% behind something, it just doesn't make sense nor leave any room for dialog. Hamas is deplorable, their actions abhorrent. The worst thing we can do is retaliate with vengeance in the same manner. I feel your anger and pain.
Also, We used the bomb...twice, which I think is beyond the strong response you are calling for.
We are dealing with pure evil. Apparently there is video of 40 babies with their heads cut off at the bottom of rubble. As far as the US Govt at bare minimum what we need to hear is that there will no longer be any deals with Iran or a detente of any kind. We should freeze that 6B we gave to them AND seize all of their oil ASAP. If you do not understand that the only goal of Hamas is to erase Israel from the face of the earth, and they couldn't give a flying f about Gaza Palestinians, you're not rational.
Beyond that we are dealing with a geopolitical mess with China, Russia, and Iran. We cannot keep our eye off of Taiwan despite these two other horrific situations. Hard power is 100% necessary in this conflict and the USA must help Israel with unrelenting force. The Iranian regime must be destroyed, period. Imagine these fkbags getting a nuclear bomb? Not happening. Absolutely destroy ALL of their nuclear facilities with ZERO hesitation. The fact that Blinken tweeted about wanting a cease-fire, and then deleted it, is troubling to say the least. And beyond moronic. What a joke. I will stand with 🇮🇱 and if you do not you need to wake the F up. We're dealing with evil. Dismiss these slimebag terrorists and their leadership from the planet.
Muggs we love you, but you're not serious people.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 09, 2023, 08:24:26 PM
We could roll from Tehran through Moscow and Beijing, too. Go to Pyongyang as well
You left out Washington.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 10, 2023, 09:25:36 AM
You left out Washington.
Now that they're in the Big Ten, not a bad idea
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 10, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
We are dealing with pure evil. Apparently there is video of 40 babies with their heads cut off at the bottom of rubble. As far as the US Govt at bare minimum what we need to hear is that there will no longer be any deals with Iran or a detente of any kind. We should freeze that 6B we gave to them AND seize all of their oil ASAP. If you do not understand that the only goal of Hamas is to erase Israel from the face of the earth, and they couldn't give a flying f about Gaza Palestinians, you're not rational.
Beyond that we are dealing with a geopolitical mess with China, Russia, and Iran. We cannot keep our eye off of Taiwan despite these two other horrific situations. Hard power is 100% necessary in this conflict and the USA must help Israel with unrelenting force. The Iranian regime must be destroyed, period. Imagine these fkbags getting a nuclear bomb? Not happening. Absolutely destroy ALL of their nuclear facilities with ZERO hesitation. The fact that Blinken tweeted about wanting a cease-fire, and then deleted it, is troubling to say the least. And beyond moronic. What a joke. I will stand with 🇮🇱 and if you do not you need to wake the F up. We're dealing with evil. Dismiss these slimebag terrorists and their leadership from the planet.
I get it, I hear you. Hamas is not Palestine, it is not Iran, it is not Islam. They are evil, and Israel/Palestine/Iran/Middle
East need to decide if Hamas is what they want or not. Taking over Iran, destroying an entire country/culture/people, forced occupation is exactly what you are decrying and supporting all in the same breath. We need to stand behind the innocent Muslims and Jews as one.
I appreciate you telling me to wake the F up. While I would personally never say that to anyone, I can absolutely accept it and always try to do just that. Anger is a necessary and difficult emotion, vengeance is a powerful driver, I surely understand where you are coming from.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 10, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
We are dealing with pure evil. Apparently there is video of 40 babies with their heads cut off at the bottom of rubble. As far as the US Govt at bare minimum what we need to hear is that there will no longer be any deals with Iran or a detente of any kind. We should freeze that 6B we gave to them AND seize all of their oil ASAP. If you do not understand that the only goal of Hamas is to erase Israel from the face of the earth, and they couldn't give a flying f about Gaza Palestinians, you're not rational.
Beyond that we are dealing with a geopolitical mess with China, Russia, and Iran. We cannot keep our eye off of Taiwan despite these two other horrific situations. Hard power is 100% necessary in this conflict and the USA must help Israel with unrelenting force. The Iranian regime must be destroyed, period. Imagine these fkbags getting a nuclear bomb? Not happening. Absolutely destroy ALL of their nuclear facilities with ZERO hesitation. The fact that Blinken tweeted about wanting a cease-fire, and then deleted it, is troubling to say the least. And beyond moronic. What a joke. I will stand with 🇮🇱 and if you do not you need to wake the F up. We're dealing with evil. Dismiss these slimebag terrorists and their leadership from the planet.
Make sure you display your yellow ribbon proudly
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 10, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
We are dealing with pure evil. Apparently there is video of 40 babies with their heads cut off at the bottom of rubble. As far as the US Govt at bare minimum what we need to hear is that there will no longer be any deals with Iran or a detente of any kind. We should freeze that 6B we gave to them AND seize all of their oil ASAP. If you do not understand that the only goal of Hamas is to erase Israel from the face of the earth, and they couldn't give a flying f about Gaza Palestinians, you're not rational.
Beyond that we are dealing with a geopolitical mess with China, Russia, and Iran. We cannot keep our eye off of Taiwan despite these two other horrific situations. Hard power is 100% necessary in this conflict and the USA must help Israel with unrelenting force. The Iranian regime must be destroyed, period. Imagine these fkbags getting a nuclear bomb? Not happening. Absolutely destroy ALL of their nuclear facilities with ZERO hesitation. The fact that Blinken tweeted about wanting a cease-fire, and then deleted it, is troubling to say the least. And beyond moronic. What a joke. I will stand with 🇮🇱 and if you do not you need to wake the F up. We're dealing with evil. Dismiss these slimebag terrorists and their leadership from the planet.
💯 percent correct Muggs and spot on. Push back and don't be shouted down. Any rational human being can see the truth in what you're saying. Don't let their antisemitism override the truth, hey?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 10, 2023, 09:25:36 AM
You left out Washington.
Didn't some people try that already?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 09:33:40 AM
💯 percent correct Muggs and spot on. Push back and don't be shouted down. Any rational human being can see the truth in what you're saying. Don't let their antisemitism override the truth, hey?
Like the antisemitism against Zelensky as a reason not to support Ukraine, hey?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 10, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
We are dealing with pure evil. Apparently there is video of 40 babies with their heads cut off at the bottom of rubble. As far as the US Govt at bare minimum what we need to hear is that there will no longer be any deals with Iran or a detente of any kind. We should freeze that 6B we gave to them AND seize all of their oil ASAP. If you do not understand that the only goal of Hamas is to erase Israel from the face of the earth, and they couldn't give a flying f about Gaza Palestinians, you're not rational.
Beyond that we are dealing with a geopolitical mess with China, Russia, and Iran. We cannot keep our eye off of Taiwan despite these two other horrific situations. Hard power is 100% necessary in this conflict and the USA must help Israel with unrelenting force. The Iranian regime must be destroyed, period. Imagine these fkbags getting a nuclear bomb? Not happening. Absolutely destroy ALL of their nuclear facilities with ZERO hesitation. The fact that Blinken tweeted about wanting a cease-fire, and then deleted it, is troubling to say the least. And beyond moronic. What a joke. I will stand with 🇮🇱 and if you do not you need to wake the F up. We're dealing with evil. Dismiss these slimebag terrorists and their leadership from the planet.
I have no problem understanding that the geopolitical scene of the Middle East is beyond my current knowledge level.
However, I know that your opinion on this topic is awful. Take the next couple of plays off.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 10, 2023, 09:39:57 AM
Like the antisemitism against Zelensky as a reason not to support Ukraine, hey?
Don't try to make sense of the nonsensical.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 09:33:40 AM
💯 percent correct Muggs and spot on. Push back and don't be shouted down. Any rational human being can see the truth in what you're saying. Don't let their antisemitism override the truth, hey?
I was having a conversation with my wife last night about how difficult this is to discuss because someone will call you an antisemite, anti-Islam, an Israeli or Arab hater, irrational, all that. I can't imagine being an innocent Jew or Muslim living in fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured, murdered.
Quote from: 🏀 on October 10, 2023, 09:40:46 AM
I have no problem understanding that the geopolitical scene of the Middle East is beyond my current knowledge level.
However, I know that your opinion on this topic is awful. Take the next couple of plays off.
I will not post for awhile but stand by my comments. This is not a war about religion or land, this is about civilization, antisemitism, and pure evil. I will leave it at that but every human being here and around the world should be supporting 🇮🇱 and Jews around the world.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 10, 2023, 09:48:04 AM
I will not post for awhile but stand by my comments. This is not a war about religion or land, this is about civilization, antisemitism, and pure evil. I will leave it at that but every human being here and around the world should be supporting 🇮🇱 and Jews around the world.
I'll donate to some Jewish charities and get a ribbon. It's good enough for the troops
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 10, 2023, 09:48:04 AM
I will not post for awhile but stand by my comments. This is not a war about religion or land, this is about civilization, antisemitism, and pure evil. I will leave it at that but every human being here and around the world should be supporting 🇮🇱 and Jews around the world.
I hope you reconsider and continue to post. I appreciate the dialog.
Unk, here's where you can begin,
https://www.mdais.org/
Post your donation receipt, hey?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 10, 2023, 09:05:22 AM
As far as the US Govt at bare minimum what we need to hear is that there will no longer be any deals with Iran or a detente of any kind. We should freeze that 6B we gave to them AND seize all of their oil ASAP.
19 guys from Saudi Arabia attacked us and we decided to invade Iraq. Hamas attacks Israel and we should invade Iran.
Wingnuts should never be in charge of anything, least of all foreign policy.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 10, 2023, 09:59:12 AM
19 guys from Saudi Arabia attacked us and we decided to invade Iraq. Hamas attacks Israel and we should invade Iran.
Wingnuts should never be in charge of anything, least of all foreign policy.
Then complain about being stuck in Iran for the next 20 years and complain about what ever new head arrises from the decapitated snake and blame the deep state and media and so on rinse and repeat
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 09:57:22 AM
Unk, here's where you can begin,
https://www.mdais.org/
Post your donation receipt, hey?
Thanks! Tell keefe not to dox me, though. He was back at it this summer
"In an editorial entitled 'Netanyahu Bears Responsibility For This Israel-Gaza War,' the editorial board of the israeli newspaper Haaretz, writes, in part, 'Above all, the danger looming over Israel in recent years has been fully realized. A prime minister indicted in three corruption cases cannot look after state affairs, as national interests will necessarily be subordinate to extricating him from a possible conviction and jail time. This was the reason for establish this horrific coalition and the judicial coup advanced by Netanyahu, and for the enfeeblement of top army and intelligent officers who were perceived as political opponents. The price was paid by the victims of the invasion,'" Mika Brzezinski read aloud.
And now this is going on.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711715491767558326?
We should also note that those that don't want to send troops or commit unlawful international actions don't mean not supporting Israel or their response.
Hamas f'ed around and are finding out. No sympathy from me for whatever the results are. Israel has every right to protect itself and retaliate in whatever way they choose. The human cost will be immense and the long term effects likely catastrophic. This was initiated in a cowardly terrorist attack and the blame for the response lies solely with the perpetrators.
America will and has supported Israel for 75 plus years through military and financial support and will continue to do so. That's not including any efforts to broker peace across all administrations and certain intelligence cooperation.
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
If it makes those who oppose direct intervention militarily antisemitic, I guess we're antisemitic
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 10, 2023, 10:47:09 AM
We should also note that those that don't want to send troops or commit unlawful international actions don't mean not supporting Israel or their response.
Hamas f'ed around and are finding out. No sympathy from me for whatever the results are. Israel has every right to protect itself and retaliate in whatever way they choose. The human cost will be immense and the long term effects likely catastrophic. This was initiated in a cowardly terrorist attack and the blame for the response lies solely with the perpetrators.
America will and has supported Israel for 75 plus years through military and financial support and will continue to do so. That's not including any efforts to broker peace across all administrations and certain intelligence cooperation.
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
If it makes those who oppose direct intervention militarily antisemitic, I guess we're antisemitic
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/MdXl4KwZogSzAn6Xx4/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952w2kxcy24y2nd1iy5j2t4uvyz0p9u2b08qzfhr43o&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 10, 2023, 10:29:48 AM
And now this is going on.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711715491767558326?
Both NATO members, but based on this map, EDIT - there appears to be a space where an could be in between the territorial boundaries of either country?
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Baltic-Sea-and-location-of-its-sub-basins-The-blue-line-shows-the-border-of_fig2_351967212 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Baltic-Sea-and-location-of-its-sub-basins-The-blue-line-shows-the-border-of_fig2_351967212)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 10, 2023, 11:00:17 AM
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/MdXl4KwZogSzAn6Xx4/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952w2kxcy24y2nd1iy5j2t4uvyz0p9u2b08qzfhr43o&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Yes, and add the fact that as far as we know, Israel hasnt asked for our military help.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 10, 2023, 10:47:09 AM
We should also note that those that don't want to send troops or commit unlawful international actions don't mean not supporting Israel or their response.
Hamas f'ed around and are finding out. No sympathy from me for whatever the results are. Israel has every right to protect itself and retaliate in whatever way they choose. The human cost will be immense and the long term effects likely catastrophic. This was initiated in a cowardly terrorist attack and the blame for the response lies solely with the perpetrators.
America will and has supported Israel for 75 plus years through military and financial support and will continue to do so. That's not including any efforts to broker peace across all administrations and certain intelligence cooperation.
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
If it makes those who oppose direct intervention militarily antisemitic, I guess we're antisemitic
100%. And it is beyond idiotic to suggest going to was against Iran. Do you (Mugsy) have any clue as to the price we will pay for THAT unwinnable war?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 10, 2023, 10:29:48 AM
And now this is going on.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711715491767558326?
Doesn't matter. Putin's not that bad, Tucker and his sheep tell us.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 09:33:40 AM
Don't let their antisemitism override the truth, hey?
You voted twice for somebody who has been supporting antisemitism his entire adult life - including, unfortunately, his time as president of the United States. And, despite saying you'd never support antisemitism, you'll vote for him again.
Given how strongly you claim to support Judaism - not just Israel, but Judaism right here in America and around the entire world - that's pretty damn disappointing, Doc.
But hey, if you think I'm an antisemite because, based on the information we have today, I don't want the United States to go to war with Iran, I can live with you thinking that. I mean, I guess I hate my own brother and the rest of my family, right?
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 10, 2023, 11:10:23 AM
Yes, and add the fact that as far as we know, Israel hasnt asked for our military help.
And I'd be surprised if they did barring a multinational attack. Will they ask for more financial assistance or weapons? Probably and like with Ukraine, we should support those requests to the best of our capabilities.
You know as well as anyone that there will never be peace in the Middle East as long as the Palestinians will sacrifice their own children to push Israel into the sea.
As for Trump, according to you he apparently had nothing to do with the Abraham Accords and moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. Oh, and he must hate his son-in-law and daughter, who has converted to Judaism. He also is one of the top gentile donors to Israel and will be the main speaker at the RJC meeting in Las Vegas later this month.
As for me, I am on record in support of another candidate for president. However, should Trump be the nominee, I will vote for him, in preference to the Buffoon, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 11:37:07 AM
You know as well as anyone that there will never be peace in the Middle East as long as the Palestinians will sacrifice their own children to push Israel into the sea.
As for Trump, according to you he apparently had nothing to do with the Abraham Accords and moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. Oh, and he must hate his son-in-law and daughter, who has converted to Judaism. He also is one of the top gentile donors to Israel and will be the main speaker at the RJC meeting in Las Vegas later this month.
As for me, I am on record in support of another candidate for president. However, should Trump be the nominee, I will vote for him, in preference to the Buffoon, hey?
Thanks for confirming that you will gladly support a guy who has welcomed Jew-haters to his dinner table, a guy who has deferred to Jew-haters around the globe, a guy who lumped Jew-haters in with "very fine people," a guy who has accepted support (including violence on his behalf) from Jew-hating groups and individuals, a guy who is considering Ms. Jewish Space Laser as his running mate, etc etc etc.
Quote from: MU82 on October 10, 2023, 12:01:47 PM
Thanks for confirming that you will gladly support a guy who has welcomed Jew-haters to his dinner table, a guy who has deferred to Jew-haters around the globe, a guy who lumped Jew-haters in with "very fine people," a guy who has accepted support (including violence on his behalf) from Jew-hating groups and individuals, a guy who is considering Ms. Jewish Space Laser as his running mate, etc etc etc.
I think you're both missing the point a little. Trump isn't pro-Israel or antisemitic. He's only and always pro-Trump. If he thinks dining with a noted antisemite, shouting out the Proud Boys and calling neo-Nazis fine people helps him, he'll do it. And if he thinks espousing pro-Israel policies and moving an embassy helps him, he'll do it.
He gives zero f*cks about either side. He has no beliefs other than the belief that he should say and do whatever it takes to enhance his own power and wealth.
How does that, should it be true, differentiate him from other politicians, the current potus included, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 11:37:07 AM
You know as well as anyone that there will never be peace in the Middle East as long as the Palestinians will sacrifice their own children to push Israel into the sea.
Using "Palestinians" in regards to "pushing into the sea" vs. Hamas kinda gives away your game, and also kind of purely ignores the reality of the last couple decades.
You know its a tenable position to be against the disgusting atrocities committed by Hamas while simultaneously acknowledging the reality of the policies that got this region into this horrible situation right?
I don't think some understand many aspects of the cycle of violence.
Hamas' attack and actions were abhorrent. But there likely wasn't a person taking part in that attack that didn't lose a loved one (women, children, civilians) in Israeli attacks on Gaza/West Bank. That by no means justifies it, but it does provide context into why someone would commit such horrific actions.
Israel will/is fighting back. And it is their right to do so. But as a result, numerous women, children, and innocent civilians are dying again. For each of them that dies in these bombings, 2-3 more future terrorists are being created. Which means no matter how much they cripple Hamas, the actions in doing so will create future attacks, and deaths.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 10, 2023, 12:11:35 PM
I think you're both missing the point a little. Trump isn't pro-Israel or antisemitic. He's only and always pro-Trump. If he thinks dining with a noted antisemite, shouting out the Proud Boys and calling neo-Nazis fine people helps him, he'll do it. And if he thinks espousing pro-Israel policies and moving an embassy helps him, he'll do it.
He gives zero f*cks about either side. He has no beliefs other than the belief that he should say and do whatever it takes to enhance his own power and wealth.
Correct. He's a kleptocrat that will sell out either side depending what is in it for him personally. His son-in-laws religion is irrelevant to him.
He'd sell out Israel as fast as he could if it benefited him. Anyone that thinks otherwise is the real buffoon
Disagree entirely. In fact, the Palestinians refer to Israel as Palestine and have, since 1948, refused to acknowledge the sovereign State, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 10, 2023, 12:36:12 PM
Correct. He's a kleptocrat that will sell out either side depending what is in it for him personally. His son-in-laws religion is irrelevant to him.
He'd sell out Israel as fast as he could if it benefited him. Anyone that thinks otherwise is the real buffoon
Again, how does that differentiate him from today's mainstream politician, including BOTUS, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 10, 2023, 12:11:35 PM
I think you're both missing the point a little. Trump isn't pro-Israel or antisemitic. He's only and always pro-Trump. If he thinks dining with a noted antisemite, shouting out the Proud Boys and calling neo-Nazis fine people helps him, he'll do it. And if he thinks espousing pro-Israel policies and moving an embassy helps him, he'll do it.
He gives zero f*cks about either side. He has no beliefs other than the belief that he should say and do whatever it takes to enhance his own power and wealth.
That's reasonable, Pak. As I said, he has gladly accepted support from raging antisemites - over and over and over again. The only religion that has ever mattered to him is the Cult of Trump.
Meanwhile, Doc said he would never vote for somebody who supports antisemitism ... but he already has done so twice and he now admits he will gladly do so again.
This:
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 10, 2023, 12:36:12 PM
He's a kleptocrat that will sell out either side depending what is in it for him personally. His son-in-laws religion is irrelevant to him.
He'd sell out Israel as fast as he could if it benefited him. Anyone that thinks otherwise is the real buffoon
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 12:49:36 PM
Again, how does that differentiate him from today's mainstream politician, including BOTUS, hey?
If you can't see the difference, that's on you and generally reflects why an entire political party is being held hostage by a single man. That's not strength, that's weakness
82, where we disagree here, is I don't believe Trump is antisemitic, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 12:57:12 PM
82, where we disagree here, is I don't believe Trump is antisemitic, hey?
Would you say giving credence to those who vocally support antisemitism is antisemitic?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 11:37:07 AM
You know as well as anyone that there will never be peace in the Middle East as long as the Palestinians will sacrifice their own children to push Israel into the sea.
As for Trump, according to you he apparently had nothing to do with the Abraham Accords and moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. Oh, and he must hate his son-in-law and daughter, who has converted to Judaism. He also is one of the top gentile donors to Israel and will be the main speaker at the RJC meeting in Las Vegas later this month.
As for me, I am on record in support of another candidate for president. However, should Trump be the nominee, I will vote for him, in preference to the Buffoon, hey?
List all of the DT accomplishments while in office.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 12:16:05 PM
How does that, should it be true, differentiate him from other politicians, the current potus included, hey?
I've never seen another president in my lifetime play footsie with white supremacist organizations, suck up to Russian tyrants or praise communist dictators.
How about you?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 12:46:43 PM
Disagree entirely. In fact, the Palestinians refer to Israel as Palestine and have, since 1948, refused to acknowledge the sovereign State, hey?
My guess is you know very little about the history of Israel and Palestine.
(https://media.tenor.com/iC1uxUxpdh8AAAAd/stsp-star-trek.gif)
Quote from: forgetful on October 10, 2023, 01:01:17 PM
My guess is you know very little about the history of Israel and Palestine.
Wrong guess, try again, hey?
This would have never happened if they found a place for the Palestinians in Mequon.
They are welcome with open arms. All they have to be able to do is afford it, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 01:38:40 PM
They are welcome with open arms. All they have to be able to do is afford it, hey?
And they have to get out of Gaza. Which they now can't, because Israel bombed the only border crossing to stop anyone from leaving.
Actions have consequences. Maybe call an Uber, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 01:52:10 PM
Actions have consequences. Maybe call an Uber, aina?
So let's say that the democratic governor, someone you vehemently oppose, of your state decided to unilaterally take up arms against our government and started by invading Chicagoland. The feds said "get out of WI because we're opening the gates of hell" (even though you physically can't because of blockades) you would just feel like "well my actions of living here have consequences..."
The only way things will change is when the voters change the way they vote, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 02:10:34 PM
The only way things will change is when the voters change the way they vote, hey?
Yeah, take a look at Republicans who keep voting for Trump and Trump candidates. Great strategy for the party, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 12:57:12 PM
82, where we disagree here, is I don't believe Trump is antisemitic, hey?
We actually disagree on quite a bit involving respect for and support of Judaism. As for your question, see this:
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 10, 2023, 12:58:35 PM
Would you say giving credence to those who vocally support antisemitism is antisemitic?
Credence, yes. Also aid and comfort. He also courts their support, despite their violent rhetoric and heinous acts.
And this:
Quote from: Pakuni on October 10, 2023, 01:00:01 PM
I've never seen another president in my lifetime play footsie with white supremacist organizations, suck up to Russian tyrants or praise communist dictators.
How about you?
Don't forget that you've never seen another president foment a violent coup attempt against his own country, all built on a lie he could sell to his cultists.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 02:10:34 PM
The only way things will change is when the voters change the way they vote, hey?
How? Hamas was put in power without election. So again we circle back to the scenario I put forth, would you stil stand firm about choices having consequences if it was your home on the line to a government you don't support?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 10, 2023, 01:00:01 PM
I've never seen another president in my lifetime play footsie with white supremacist terrorist organizations, suck up to Russian Iranian tyrants or praise Chinese communist dictators.
How about you?
Hmm.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 10, 2023, 02:37:25 PM
Hmm.
Hmmm.
Citations needed.
Or, were you talking about this?
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-calls-xi-jinping-brilliant-hollywood-good-looks-brains-2023-4
Quote from: Pakuni on October 10, 2023, 02:43:34 PM
Hmmm.
Citations needed.
Or, were you talking about this?
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-calls-xi-jinping-brilliant-hollywood-good-looks-brains-2023-4
Yep. Or this?
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-donald-trump-chris-wallace-0b32339da25fbc9e8b7c7c7066a1db0f
Why did Israel ignore Egyptian intelligence warnings?
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/hamas-kills-40-babies-and-children-beheading-some-of-them-at-israeli-kibbutz-report/
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 10, 2023, 03:15:39 PM
Why did Israel ignore Egyptian intelligence warnings?
There were a lot of comparisons to this being Israel's "Pearl Harbor." There were reports, and still conspiracy theories regarding whether the US knew about the Pearl Harbor attack before it happened, and that the US underestimated the capabilities of Japan and how much damage an attack could do.
I see some analogies here. I have a hard time believing that Israel's intelligence network completely missed this. And reports from Egypt saying they were warned are interesting. I don't think Netanyahu knew anything, but that doesn't mean others in positions of power didn't. Including the Minister of National Security.
I find it hard to believe they didn't know something was going to happen (especially with it being on the anniversary of a major attack). My guess is that some greatly underestimated the magnitude of damage Hamas could inflict. It's a conspiracy theory, but I'm wondering if some were warned, were aware an attack might happen, but underestimated Hamas' capabilities, and overestimated their own defense capabilities.
Quote from: forgetful on October 08, 2023, 10:13:28 AM
Iran isn't the only party that didn't want this deal to go through. Some far-right nationalists in the Israeli government also did not want this deal to go through. Those leaders were the ones pushing for settlers etc., to enter, and threatened, to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. One of the lead proponents of that movement "Itmar Ben-Gvir," (Minister of National Security), led an incursion into the mosque area just before the recent attacks.
His goal is to have Israel settle the entire West Bank, with most Palestinians forced to leave to other Arab nations.
The Saudi-Israeli deal would have essentially ended his goals.
His actions over the last couple months (in regards to the Al-Aqsa mosque), and rhetoric and hate speech, led to much of this violence. And his role in the government would have given him access to essentially all intelligence about any possible attacks.
Note: The focus on the Al-Aqsa mosque by the far right Israelis was intentional. In Arab culture, the Saudi King is responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque. So the attacks/incursions on the mosque were directed attacks against Saudi Arabia.
There is a lot more to this and what has been brewing for a while, some of the other elements are less known in the west, because they are particularly important to the Arab world, and Islam, and less understood in regards of importance by western media.
For those unaware of some of the tensions behind the scenes prior to everything going on now. Look up Itamar Ben-Gvir.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 10, 2023, 02:10:34 PM
The only way things will change is when the voters change the way they vote, hey?
They did and you guys attempted a coup over it.
For the love of god, this thread has tons of potential to be contentious as is, but we've managed to get 16 pages despite plenty of differing opinions, beliefs, and even some personal attacks...and there is a TON of good info and sharing of thoughts in here...
So can we not melt this into another Trump/Biden/Jan 6th/BLM Riot/etc... shitshow that every other thread with a remotely political tinge gets sucked into? Its like copypasta at this point.
I specifically didn't share something absurd I saw today because I knew it would potentially nuke the progress of this thread. So in that vein, just be better everyone and continue sharing the collective intelligence, life experiences, and educated ruminations on a wildly complex and deep geopolitical event that this thread can be and has been
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 03:43:11 PM
So can we not melt this into another Trump/Biden/Jan 6th/BLM Riot/etc... crapshow that every other thread with a remotely political tinge gets sucked into?
Too bad you couldn't make this into a poll. I'd vote "No"
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 03:43:11 PM
I specifically didn't share something absurd I saw today because I knew it would potentially nuke the progress of this thread.
Tease.
Quote from: forgetful on October 10, 2023, 01:01:17 PM
My guess is you know very little about the history of Israel and Palestine.
Either way
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLJyglKW4AA4i1B.jpg)
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 10, 2023, 04:18:05 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLJyglKW4AA4i1B.jpg)
Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.
I mean, I saw Fiddler on the Roof
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.
To be fair we are taught to group people of Greek, Armenian, southern Italian/sicilian, Spanish & Portuguese descent as white so these arbitrary guidelines that keep changing (last I checked North African descent and levant is considered white?) so maybe it's a bit too simplistic to point and say "you're brown"
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.
Bazillions refuse to acknowledge that Jesus was a person of color ... so yeah, I can imagine it.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 10, 2023, 05:51:45 PM
To be fair we are taught to group people of Greek, Armenian, southern Italian/sicilian, Spanish & Portuguese descent as white so these arbitrary guidelines that keep changing (last I checked North African descent and levant is considered white?) so maybe it's a bit too simplistic to point and say "you're brown"
Yea, but then if the Levant is "white" or "white passing" then Palestinians would also be white. That's the absurdity of thinking that globally people favor Israelis over Palestinians cause of not caring about brown people vs white people. This dumb idea that most Israelis look like Jared Greenblatt from Syosset when it's far more likely they are olive skinned and look MUCH closer to what people think Palestinians look like.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 06:25:30 PM
Yea, but then if the Levant is "white" or "white passing" then Palestinians would also be white. That's the absurdity of thinking that globally people favor Israelis over Palestinians cause of not caring about brown people vs white people. This dumb idea that most Israelis look like Jared Greenblatt from Syosset when it's far more likely they are olive skinned and look MUCH closer to what people think Palestinians look like.
Yeah sounds like we were attempting at the same point I just misinterpreted what you were saying. Carry on :)
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.
Who said I thought that. This was about what others think.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 10, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.
No kidding. Israelis are a diverse bunch except for Jesus, who was white.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 10, 2023, 08:26:53 PM
Who said I thought that. This was about what others think.
Case in point.
https://amp.dw.com/en/every-dark-skin-in-israel-is-now-a-target/a-18802220
But noted that the meme was interpreted as suggesting Israel White Palestinian Dark, I apologize if it came off that way if so.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 10, 2023, 08:36:24 PM
No kidding. Israelis are a diverse bunch except for Jesus, who was white.
White and ripped as f***
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 10, 2023, 08:39:53 PM
Case in point.
https://amp.dw.com/en/every-dark-skin-in-israel-is-now-a-target/a-18802220
But noted that the meme was interpreted as suggesting Israel White Palestinian Dark, I apologize if it came off that way if so.
Appreciated the clarification, that's definitely how it read. But also, I was speaking to a lot of posts that echoed similar. How people only care about when Israelis die because they aren't brown.
Which in less dire times would actually make me chuckle, considering my half Israeli nephew plays basketball outside in the summer for a few hours with a shooting sleeve and comes in with a mean tan line, or his sister spends the day at the park in sandals and comes home with a sandal tan. By late June in NJ, nobody would confuse them for "white".
Sent to me by my brother in law, I found it worth the read. Candidly, I have never read anything else on this site, do not know anything about the author. I did appreciate the attempt to discuss a delicate and nuanced situation in an unbiased way.
https://www.readtangle.com/israel-attacks-hamas-palestine-war/
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 10, 2023, 10:10:42 PM
Sent to me by my brother in law, I found it worth the read. Candidly, I have never read anything else on this site, do not know anything about the author. I did appreciate the attempt to discuss a delicate and nuanced situation in an unbiased way.
https://www.readtangle.com/israel-attacks-hamas-palestine-war/
I agree it was by and large good. However, this is what I dispute and what I think is the root of these problems: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."
I think we have to be careful about "historical claims." Groups of people have been migrating to and from various places since humankind first existed. Remember that the vast majority of Scoopers are now sitting somewhere where someone else has a much more recent "historical claim" than the Jews have over Israel.
Don't get me wrong, Israel has a LEGAL right to exist within its currently recognized borders (not including the West Bank and Gaza) under the norms of international law. And it has a right to protect those borders.
As the WSJ, Washington Post and others point out, the hostage situation is just about unprecedented and makes Israel's strategy going forward difficult to plot.
Historically, Israel has done whatever it can to protect citizens who have been taken hostage. If they have an all-out assault of Gaza, not only will Hamas follow through on threats to kill hostages one at a time while live-streaming the executions, but Israel's forces almost surely would kill some hostages during their attacks.
How much sacrifice of its own people is Israel willing to say is "worth" it?
Worth it? No question this is a fight for survival as a nation. Unfortunately, if it comes to this decision, I think you know the answer, hey?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 08:12:01 AM
I agree it was by and large good. However, this is what I dispute and what I think is the root of these problems: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."
I think we have to be careful about "historical claims." Groups of people have been migrating to and from various places since humankind first existed. Remember that the vast majority of Scoopers are now sitting somewhere where someone else has a much more recent "historical claim" than the Jews have over Israel.
Don't get me wrong, Israel has a LEGAL right to exist within its currently recognized borders (not including the West Bank and Gaza) under the norms of international law. And it has a right to protect those borders.
The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy. 18 years ago. Where the F have you been? There aren't Jews there dude. And what have the Palestinians done since? Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map. The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
No question this is a fight for survival as a nation.
4ever, can you expound on this? I fully acknowledge and agree that they are fighting terrorists who expressly state that their goal is to eliminate Israel as a nation. But that is different than this fight being a "fight for survival as a nation" - no? Isn't that akin to saying that the US response to 9/11 was "a fight for survival as a nation"?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
Worth it? No question this is a fight for survival as a nation. Unfortunately, if it comes to this decision, I think you know the answer, hey?
I'm glad I don't have to make the decision and don't have to tell some grieving mother, "Sorry, but we had to let Hamas behead your 4-year-old daughter, live-streamed on X. We had a war to win."
Rather simple...if the terrorists are victorious in driving Israel off the face of the Earth, there is no more Israel nor will there ever be another homeland. That puts Jews in peril throughout the world. Hitler showed what that ultimately could result in, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 09:18:04 AM
Rather simple...if the terrorists are victorious in driving Israel off the face of the Earth, there is no more Israel nor will there ever be another homeland. That puts Jews in peril throughout the world. Hitler showed what that ultimately could result in, hey?
Sure, I agree. But don't the power dynamics and global political realities play a role in how that threat should be perceived and responded to? If Al-Qaeda had succeeded in their stated goals with respect to the US, we could say there would be no more America. And while the US was of course entitled to a strong response to their horrendous violence, the American response also had to be contextualized in that there was no realistic chance of Al-Qaeda succeeding in that goal. Hamas just threw everything they had at Israel. The results were horrendous, and Israel should and must respond strongly. But the threat from Hamas in Gaza is not existential. Israel has (to its credit) positioned itself at the big kid table of nations, and despite horrendous historical oppression, that precludes contextualizing a threat from terrorist criminals as an existential one.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 09:18:04 AM
Rather simple...if the terrorists are victorious in driving Israel off the face of the Earth, there is no more Israel nor will there ever be another homeland. That puts Jews in peril throughout the world. Hitler showed what that ultimately could result in, hey?
I think I mostly agree with this, though thankfully it's highly unlikely that the terrorists are going to succeed here.
Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?
Quote from: MU82 on October 11, 2023, 09:34:53 AM
I think I mostly agree with this, though thankfully it's highly unlikely that the terrorists are going to succeed here.
Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?
More political points scored not defending that democracy under the guise of America First
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 09:07:40 AM
The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy. 18 years ago. Where the F have you been? There aren't Jews there dude. And what have the Palestinians done since? Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map. The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres.
No, "the Jews" didn't give Gaza to the Palestinians. The Israeli army removed their military from what was legally not considered part of Israel.
And really that's not my point. My point is that everyone is stating that they somehow have a right to a piece of land because the ethno-religious group of which they are a member used to live there. And I don't think that should ever be the correct way to determine sovereignty.
I can use another example. Mount Ararat is considered a national symbol and a holy place to Armenians. It is on the flag of Armenia and can been seen quite clearly from its capital. Yet the mountain is in Turkey and Turkey does not allow Armenians to access the mountain. Should Armenia be allowed to annex the mountain based on this "historical claim?" Of course not.
Another. For centuries the city of Konigsberg was a German city. Prior to Berlin, it was the capital of the Teutonic Order and of Prussia. After WWII, the Soviets forced the Germans out, Russified the city and renamed it Kaliningrad. Do todays Germans have a "historical claim" to the city? Nope.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 09:41:44 AM
No, "the Jews" didn't give Gaza to the Palestinians. The Israeli army removed their military from what was legally not considered part of Israel.
And really that's not my point. My point is that everyone is stating that they somehow have a right to a piece of land because the ethno-religious group of which they are a member used to live there. And I don't think that should ever be the correct way to determine sovereignty.
I can use another example. Mount Ararat is considered a national symbol and a holy place to Armenians. It is on the flag of Armenia and can been seen quite clearly from its capital. Yet the mountain is in Turkey and Turkey does not allow Armenians to access the mountain. Should Armenia be allowed to annex the mountain based on this "historical claim?" Of course not.
Another. For centuries the city of Konigsberg was a German city. Prior to Berlin, it was the capital of the Teutonic Order and of Prussia. After WWII, the Soviets forced the Germans out, Russified the city and renamed it Kaliningrad. Do todays Germans have a "historical claim" to the city? Nope.
Someone ask the Cherokee nation about historical land claims
Quote from: MU82 on October 11, 2023, 09:34:53 AM
Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?
Is your argument that becuase there are Jews in Ukraine, we are duty bound to see these very different situations identically?
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 11, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
Is your argument that becuase there are Jews in Ukraine, we are duty bound to see these very different situations identically?
The argument is the same. Fight evil and protect democracy across the globe.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 09:57:17 AM
The argument is the same. Fight evil and protect democracy across the globe.
Very neocon.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 11, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
Is your argument that becuase there are Jews in Ukraine, we are duty bound to see these very different situations identically?
Actually, that there are tens of thousands of Jews trying to live peacefully in Ukraine is irrelevant to my argument.
Ukraine is a free nation and a U.S. ally in an incredibly important/strategic part of Europe. Our sworn enemy - a Hitler-wannabe who would love nothing more than to see America cease to exist - tried to (and is still trying to) take it by force. Why do so many of the same people who say Israel must be protected at all costs shrug their shoulders at a terrorist who wants to impose his evil will on Ukraine?
Quote from: MU82 on October 11, 2023, 10:04:15 AM
Actually, that there are tens of thousands of Jews trying to live peacefully in Ukraine is irrelevant to my argument.
Ukraine is a free nation and a U.S. ally in an incredibly important/strategic part of Europe. Our sworn enemy - a Hitler-wannabe who would love nothing more than to see America cease to exist - tried to (and is still trying to) take it by force. Why do so many of the same people who say Israel must be protected at all costs shrug their shoulders at a terrorist who wants to impose his evil will on Ukraine?
Ukraine is not our ally in any similar way as Israel though. There are mutual defense agreements between US and Israel that have never existed between the US and Ukraine. In fact, up until the invasion I don't think Ukraine would have been considered an ally at all.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 08:12:01 AM
I agree it was by and large good. However, this is what I dispute and what I think is the root of these problems: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."
I think we have to be careful about "historical claims." Groups of people have been migrating to and from various places since humankind first existed. Remember that the vast majority of Scoopers are now sitting somewhere where someone else has a much more recent "historical claim" than the Jews have over Israel.
Don't get me wrong, Israel has a LEGAL right to exist within its currently recognized borders (not including the West Bank and Gaza) under the norms of international law. And it has a right to protect those borders.
Yes, that line absolutely struck me when I first read the piece. It is probably the main reason I worded my post the way I did using the words attempt at unbiased. We can never be wholly unbiased, and I respect his opinion. Clearly all claims of who rightly owns or is historically the rightful settlers of the land are what started us down this path. Where it has led is an abomination.
I appreciated the end of the piece most, I think, and I liked that the author tried to show some differing perspectives.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 11, 2023, 09:59:48 AM
Very neocon.
It's not sending troops but supporting them financially and with arms. Same as Israel
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 09:07:40 AM
The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy. 18 years ago. Where the F have you been? There aren't Jews there dude. And what have the Palestinians done since? Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map. The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres.
I think this is decidedly untrue, well mostly. Yes, Hamas has the sole purpose to wipe Israel off the map, well actually, they will kill Muslims, too. Contrary to what we see and hear, there are Jews and Muslims living there together peacefully. This is a war between radical zealots not Jews and Muslims or Israel and Palestine as a whole.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 09:41:44 AM
No, "the Jews" didn't give Gaza to the Palestinians. The Israeli army removed their military from what was legally not considered part of Israel.
And really that's not my point. My point is that everyone is stating that they somehow have a right to a piece of land because the ethno-religious group of which they are a member used to live there. And I don't think that should ever be the correct way to determine sovereignty.
I can use another example. Mount Ararat is considered a national symbol and a holy place to Armenians. It is on the flag of Armenia and can been seen quite clearly from its capital. Yet the mountain is in Turkey and Turkey does not allow Armenians to access the mountain. Should Armenia be allowed to annex the mountain based on this "historical claim?" Of course not.
Another. For centuries the city of Konigsberg was a German city. Prior to Berlin, it was the capital of the Teutonic Order and of Prussia. After WWII, the Soviets forced the Germans out, Russified the city and renamed it Kaliningrad. Do todays Germans have a "historical claim" to the city? Nope.
Interesting side note that recently Poland and all 3 Baltic countries have officially begun recognizing the enclave as
Konigsberg, but in their own language. For example, Królewiec in Polish and Karaliaučius in Lithuanian, both of which mean "King's Mountain" same as the German name.
There is no other solution MU82 than to obliterate and destroy Hamas. Period. They do not have a choice. The hostages chances of making it unfortunately are very, very, slim. There will also be a lot of civilian casualties. You cannot negotiate with Hamas or the PA. The fact that this administration won't just flat out state that Iran is heavily involved in this tragedy is honestly a joke. We need to state basic facts here. If Hezbollah gets involved it becomes much more difficult but 🇮🇱 will prevail in the long run.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 11, 2023, 10:13:42 AM
I think this is decidedly untrue, well mostly. Yes, Hamas has the sole purpose to wipe Israel off the map, well actually, they will kill Muslims, too. Contrary to what we see and hear, there are Jews and Muslims living there together peacefully. This is a war between radical zealots not Jews and Muslims or Israel and Palestine as a whole.
Jews are not in Gaza.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 11, 2023, 09:32:45 AM
Sure, I agree. But don't the power dynamics and global political realities play a role in how that threat should be perceived and responded to? If Al-Qaeda had succeeded in their stated goals with respect to the US, we could say there would be no more America. And while the US was of course entitled to a strong response to their horrendous violence, the American response also had to be contextualized in that there was no realistic chance of Al-Qaeda succeeding in that goal. Hamas just threw everything they had at Israel. The results were horrendous, and Israel should and must respond strongly. But the threat from Hamas in Gaza is not existential. Israel has (to its credit) positioned itself at the big kid table of nations, and despite horrendous historical oppression, that precludes contextualizing a threat from terrorist criminals as an existential one.
With (truly) all due respect, I think equating the threat that Al-Qaeda posed to the US and the threat that Hamas, Hezbolla, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon, etc., etc., pose to Israel is misguided. A small country surrounded by enemies who want them obliterated and whose people have already been victims of holocaust, pogrom and the like has the right to be a little less "balanced" in their response to an attack like this. IMO.
Quote from: MU82 on October 11, 2023, 09:34:53 AM
I think I mostly agree with this, though thankfully it's highly unlikely that the terrorists are going to succeed here.
Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?
Interesting observation Nads, but history shows us that as Hitler rose to power, the entire world sat and watched. Granted, news travels at a far greater speed than it did back then, but I still think we, as people, are slow to react to the obvious, hey?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 10:09:31 AM
Ukraine is not our ally in any similar way as Israel though. There are mutual defense agreements between US and Israel that have never existed between the US and Ukraine. In fact, up until the invasion I don't think Ukraine would have been considered an ally at all.
Depends how you date the invasion. Does the seizure of Crimea count?
The U.S. has supported Ukraine's admission to NATO since 2009.
After the Russians took Crimea, the U.S. began sending military aid. Threatening to cut off that aid got a certain someone in trouble.
Our relationship with Ukraine definitely is not the same as with Israel. That said - and I may be mistaken here - but I don't believe the U.S. is required to defend Israel from attack, as with NATO members.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 10:18:57 AM
You cannot negotiate with Hamas or the PA.
The fact that you keep lumping Hamas and the PA together here says a lot.
Here's a pretty good visual the view of "these acts are heinous and warrant a retaliation but one has to acknowledge Israel's done some messed up things as well"
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Again super pro Israel on this but some of you seem to think this happened in a vacuum and it didn't. You can only put down people for so long. Even Nelson Mandela took up arms eventually. Now there's a right and wrong way to go about fighting back and this is unequivocally the wrong way, but you can't look at those death/injury totals and say Palestine doesn't have some grievances (and that's without the checkpoints, and dehumanizing laws)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 11, 2023, 10:27:50 AM
Depends how you date the invasion. Does the seizure of Crimea count?
The U.S. has supported Ukraine's admission to NATO since 2009.
After the Russians took Crimea, the U.S. began sending military aid. Threatening to cut off that aid got a certain someone in trouble.
Our relationship with Ukraine definitely is not the same as with Israel. That said - and I may be mistaken here - but I don't believe the U.S. is required to defend Israel from attack, as with NATO members.
Right. I meant the 2009 invasion. That wasn't clear.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 10:23:25 AM
Interesting observation Nads, but history shows us that as Hitler rose to power, the entire world sat and watched. Granted, news travels at a far greater speed than it did back then, but I still think we, as people, are slow to react to the obvious, hey?
Recent and current American history proves that
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 11, 2023, 10:22:07 AM
With (truly) all due respect, I think equating the threat that Al-Qaeda posed to the US and the threat that Hamas, Hezbolla, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon, etc., etc., pose to Israel is misguided. A small country surrounded by enemies who want them obliterated and whose people have already been victims of holocaust, pogrom and the like has the right to be a little less "balanced" in their response to an attack like this. IMO.
Appreciate it Lenny, and you're right that the analogy is half clumsy. I think in the immediate term, two questions dictate what is an appropriate response from Israel (and its allies?), and reasonable minds can differ on both. One, as you point out, is the degree to which the actions and threats posed by Hamas can be imputed to Israel's other regional enemies. The other is the degree to which Hamas's actions can be imputed to the population of the Palestinian territories generally.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 11, 2023, 10:27:50 AM
Depends how you date the invasion. Does the seizure of Crimea count?
The U.S. has supported Ukraine's admission to NATO since 2009.
After the Russians took Crimea, the U.S. began sending military aid. Threatening to cut off that aid got a certain someone in trouble.
Our relationship with Ukraine definitely is not the same as with Israel. That said - and I may be mistaken here - but I don't believe the U.S. is required to defend Israel from attack, as with NATO members.
This. Also, Ukraine is of strategic importance to the U.S. and its European allies. Sit idly by and hand Ukraine over to Putin and what's next?
But no, I am not trying to say that Ukraine has the same kind of longstanding relationship with America that Israel does. Just that its people, and its nation, need to be able to turn back the tyranny of a despot.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 10:23:25 AM
Interesting observation Nads, but history shows us that as Hitler rose to power, the entire world sat and watched. Granted, news travels at a far greater speed than it did back then, but I still think we, as people, are slow to react to the obvious, hey?
You didn't answer my question about Ukraine.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 10:18:57 AM
There is no other solution MU82 than to obliterate and destroy Hamas. Period. They do not have a choice. The hostages chances of making it unfortunately are very, very, slim. There will also be a lot of civilian casualties. You cannot negotiate with Hamas or the PA. The fact that this administration won't just flat out state that Iran is heavily involved in this tragedy is honestly a joke. We need to state basic facts here. If Hezbollah gets involved it becomes much more difficult but 🇮🇱 will prevail in the long run.
This administration likes to wait for facts. I know that's not as satisfying as, say, immediately taking out advertisements proclaiming that the Central Park Five should be executed (for crimes they eventually would be exonerated for).
I like your passion, Muggs, but you are a hair-on-fire kind of guy whose every utterance is borne of emotion.
I do agree that Hamas is evil and every effort must be made to eradicate it. I am willing to admit that I do not have the kind of expertise in this realm to state what the best way to do that is.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 11, 2023, 10:38:01 AM
Appreciate it Lenny, and you're right that the analogy is half clumsy. I think in the immediate term, two questions dictate what is an appropriate response from Israel (and its allies?), and reasonable minds can differ on both. One, as you point out, is the degree to which the actions and threats posed by Hamas can be imputed to Israel's other regional enemies. The other is the degree to which Hamas's actions can be imputed to the population of the Palestinian territories generally.
It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.
America will support Israel. Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation. The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 10:47:05 AM
It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.
America will support Israel. Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation. The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other
Right. Israel may decide that totally obliterating Hamas, with all the civilian fatalities that it would incur, is not in its strategic best interests if it puts a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia at risk.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 10:47:05 AM
It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.
America will support Israel. Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation. The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other
Wait, so you're saying that Israel's leaders - and not Scoopers - should make decisions on how to defend their nation's sovereignty? That's crazy talk, Unk!
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 10:20:05 AM
Jews are not in Gaza.
Patently false, but I think you meant Jews and Muslims aren't peacefully living together in Gaza.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 10:47:05 AM
It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.
America will support Israel. Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation. The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other
Are you saying that what's arguably most complex foreign policy conflict in human history isn't going to be solved on Scoop?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 09:45:04 AM
Someone ask the Cherokee nation about historical land claims
Not to mention that if Abrahamic religions are correct, then the Middle East is everyone's homeland. How do you pick who to give it to?
Notably, the Palestinians proposed in the 1960's to have the entire area be made a binational homeland for Jews, Arabs, and Christians. Israel refused.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 11, 2023, 10:53:50 AM
Patently false, but I think you meant Jews and Muslims aren't peacefully living together in Gaza.
I don't think Muggs realizes that something like 20% of the Israeli population is Arab. Full citizens who can vote, serve in the military, and otherwise lead fairly normal lives.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 09:07:40 AM
The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy. 18 years ago. Where the F have you been? There aren't Jews there dude. And what have the Palestinians done since? Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map. The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres.
Hamas doesn't represent the interests of many Palestinians. 17 years ago election with less than 45% of the vote.
DT didn't and doesn't represent the interests of the majority of Americans.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 11, 2023, 10:55:15 AM
Are you saying that what's arguably most complex foreign policy conflict in human history isn't going to be solved on Scoop?
I know, stunning. I'm coming around to muggsy's way of thinking but expanding it to a crusade-level attack that takes the Arabian Peninsula and Jerusalem, the Sinai, Syria, etc.
Time to think big and end this millenniums long struggle for these lands
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 11:02:23 AM
I know, stunning. I'm coming around to muggsy's way of thinking but expanding it to a crusade-level attack that takes the Arabian Peninsula and Jerusalem, the Sinai, Syria, etc.
Time to think big and end this millenniums long struggle for these lands
Which crusade? Because the fourth arguably led to the downfall of Constantinople & the Eastern Roman Empire. Plus pretty much opened the door for the ottoman invasion.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 10:59:38 AM
I don't think Muggs realizes that something like 20% of the Israeli population is Arab. Full citizens who can vote, serve in the military, and otherwise lead fairly normal lives.
I think this is such a good comment. I'm not piling on Muggs here, I respect his emotions as I too am an emotional being, but your comment as a whole that we just don't truly understand the area, the population, the culture, the relationships, is so astute. We like to make crap up and divide.
I'm sure I'm not alone here when I say this, but that comment about Jews and Muslims living peacefully in Israel Palestine, didn't come from me, it came from a longtime Jewish friend who I called Monday morning to ask if I could have an open and honest conversation with her. She said it, someone who knows first hand. I trust that. She is also pro-peace while also a pro single Israeli state that has been pushed over the line with the barbaric actions of Hamas. It's complicated.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 11, 2023, 11:10:06 AM
It's complicated.
That's a cop-out. Just start bombing, baby! Doesn't matter who!!!
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 11, 2023, 11:09:13 AM
Which crusade? Because the fourth arguably led to the downfall of Constantinople & the Eastern Roman Empire. Plus pretty much opened the door for the ottoman invasion.
This one will be better and bigger. We can even sell naming rights
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 11:22:10 AM
This one will be better and bigger. We can even sell naming rights
Brought to you by Bomb Pops, Rocket Mortgage and Jews for Jesus.
Quote from: MU82 on October 11, 2023, 11:25:17 AM
Brought to you by Bomb Pops, Rocket Mortgage and Jews for Jesus.
Rocket Mortgage is a given. They'll sponsor anything.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 11:22:10 AM
This one will be better and bigger. We can even sell naming rights
I'm guessing Ali baba is out as a potential sponsor
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 11, 2023, 11:28:32 AM
I'm guessing Ali baba is out as a potential sponsor
Leave all avenues for revenue open
Quote from: MU82 on October 11, 2023, 11:20:26 AM
That's a cop-out. Just start bombing, baby! Doesn't matter who!!!
Dang it, you're right! I'm now a converted barbarian!
Interestingly enough, I find your comment a good one, too. Not only do we like to make crap up, we also like to cherry pick one line of a comment and get all worked up. 😁
I'll read all these pages later, but both sides are wrong here. You can't be surprised when Hamas pushes back in a violent way (though somehow Mossad and the IDF were?). Israel maintains Gaza as an outdoor prison system. The entire state of Israel is apartheid and treats half of it's citizens as less than and has been openly ethnically cleansing them for years.
Again, I'm not excusing Hamas' actions, but eventually push comes to shove. And now Israel is using collective punishment to kill Palestinian citizens randomly. The full blockade of food, water, and medicine is a war crime as is the collective punishment and open targeting of civilians. Of course, this was also done by Hamas and is also a war crime.
I guess the crux of the problem is that if you kick and kill a group of people long enough they're going to bite back. The irony that the Jewish state of Israel is openly ghettoizing a population within their borders isn't lost on me.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 07, 2023, 09:13:56 AM
no excuse! unprovoked! disgusting!
i just hope we have something left to help out israel with. between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.
Oh God, I was going to read the rest... but I think this probably sums it up.
Not saying I agree or disagree, because it's so complex and I'm no expert on Middle East situations, but I did find this piece by a professor of history at Hebrew University in Jerusalem to be interesting.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/11/netanyahu-populism-weakened-israeli-security/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most
After he gets through talking about his personal attachments, he goes into this:
Israelis are paying the price for years of hubris, during which our governments and many ordinary Israelis felt we were so much stronger than the Palestinians, that we could just ignore them. There is much to criticize about the way Israel has abandoned the attempt to make peace with the Palestinians and has held for decades millions of Palestinians under occupation.
But this does not justify the atrocities committed by Hamas, which in any case has never countenanced any possibility for a peace treaty with Israel and has done everything in its power to sabotage the Oslo peace process. Anyone who wants peace must condemn and impose sanctions on Hamas and demand the immediate release of all hostages and Hamas's complete disarmament.
Moreover, irrespective of how much blame one ascribes to Israel, this does not explain the dysfunction of the state. History isn't a morality tale.
The real explanation for Israel's dysfunction is populism rather than any alleged immorality. For many years, Israel has been governed by a populist strongman, Benjamin Netanyahu, who is a public-relations genius but an incompetent prime minister. He has repeatedly preferred his personal interests over the national interest and has built his career on dividing the nation against itself. He has appointed people to key positions based on loyalty more than qualifications, took credit for every success while never taking responsibility for failures, and seemed to give little importance to either telling or hearing the truth.
Inaccuracies in the thread
- Hamas is not the governing body of Palestine. They have control of the Gaza Strip. The West Bank is more of less in the control of the Palestinian Authority.
- Iran, the CIA, and Mossad all say that Iran has had no involvement in the attacks.
- 40 babies weren't decapitated, but plenty of children did die.
- Disagreeing with Israeli policy doesn't make someone antisemitic.
- Note: The focus on the Al-Aqsa mosque by the far right Israelis was intentional. In Arab culture, the Saudi King is responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque. So the attacks/incursions on the mosque were directed attacks against Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is 300 years old, and has only been in power in SA for a little over a hundred years. There were hundreds of years that the 'Saudi King' couldn't have been responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque since there have been several Islamic caliphates that weren't headed by anyone from the Saud family. Not to mention the Ottoman Empire. I have no idea where this information is coming from.
- Muggsy, your posts read like you are living on twitter and relying on bad sources and have a terrible grip on history. The entirety of the US military couldn't eradicate the Taliban. What chance does Israel have in eliminating Hamas, Hezbollah, etc? Suggesting the destruction of Iran is nuts. Your idea of foreign policy is that of a scared girl who has seen her first spiders next, "KILL IT WITH FIRE". You're suggesting to meet war crimes with war crimes unilaterally. It is utterly childish.
- The support of Israel in America is directly tied to the Evangelical movement and its voters. Never think that the bloc actually cares about the Jewish people in Israel, they just need the final battle to happen for the rapture to occur.
- I am dumber having read all 19 pages of this thread.
I'll leave this link here for Muggs... and maybe some others. Very informative. Someone might even say, "Excellent".
https://conquer-and-divide.btselem.org/map-en.html
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 11, 2023, 03:39:14 PM
- 40 babies weren't decapitated, but plenty of children did die.
Not only were 40 babies decapitated, but many Harvard students think it was awesome.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 11, 2023, 03:39:14 PM
- Iran, the CIA, and Mossad all say that Iran has had no involvement in the attacks.
To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.
I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 03:48:01 PM
To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.
I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.
Fair enough.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 03:48:01 PM
To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.
I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.
The chances Iran wasn't involved is nil
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 03:53:37 PM
The chances Iran wasn't involved is nil
Define involved.
Is the US involved when Israel attacks Gaza?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 11, 2023, 04:32:57 PM
Define involved.
Is the US involved when Israel attacks Gaza?
Yes.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 11, 2023, 03:39:14 PM
Inaccuracies in the thread
- Note: The focus on the Al-Aqsa mosque by the far right Israelis was intentional. In Arab culture, the Saudi King is responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque. So the attacks/incursions on the mosque were directed attacks against Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is 300 years old, and has only been in power in SA for a little over a hundred years. There were hundreds of years that the 'Saudi King' couldn't have been responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque since there have been several Islamic caliphates that weren't headed by anyone from the Saud family. Not to mention the Ottoman Empire. I have no idea where this information is coming from.
I'll admit to being a little loose on the details to keep things simpler. That is my fault for not being precise. I'll be more precise in my clarification. The Saudi Arabian rulers have given themselves a title consistent with the protector of holy mosques, including the Al-Aqsa mosque (currently Jordanian rulers are the official custodians). In negotiations facilitated by the last White House, Saudi Arabia was trying to further cement this role by having permanent representation on the waqf.
Saudi Arabian rulers take this very seriously, as part of their claim to religious legitimacy. That is why the Al-Aqsa mosque was targeted by the Israeli far right. It is also why the international community condemned Israel actions, and pleaded with Israel to reign in the violent actions and rhetoric of Itamar Ben-Gvir for fear that it would cause a new uprising and jeopardize the Saudi deal. If Saudi rulers went ahead with a peace/recognition plan with Israel, at a time where far-right members within the cabinet were desecrating the mosque, they would have lose legitimacy within the Arab community.
Quote from: forgetful on October 11, 2023, 05:03:34 PM
I'll admit to being a little loose on the details to keep things simpler. That is my fault for not being precise. I'll be more precise in my clarification. The Saudi Arabian rulers have given themselves a title consistent with the protector of holy mosques, including the Al-Aqsa mosque (currently Jordanian rulers are the official custodians). In negotiations facilitated by the last White House, Saudi Arabia was trying to further cement this role by having permanent representation on the waqf.
Saudi Arabian rulers take this very seriously, as part of their claim to religious legitimacy. That is why the Al-Aqsa mosque was targeted by the Israeli far right. It is also why the international community condemned Israel actions, and pleaded with Israel to reign in the violent actions and rhetoric of Itamar Ben-Gvir for fear that it would cause a new uprising and jeopardize the Saudi deal. If Saudi rulers went ahead with a peace/recognition plan with Israel, at a time where far-right members within the cabinet were desecrating the mosque, they would have lose legitimacy within the Arab community.
Great clarification.
Ben-Givir should never have been allowed to have any role in the Israeli government. He was denied service in the IDF for being so radical. The man kept a photo of a man who shot up a mosque in the 90s. That'd be like someone high up in the US government in charge of race relations keeping a picture of Dylann Roof in their home. Letting Ben-Givir anywhere near any position of authority in Israel is disgusting. But it speaks to the policy of the Likud party in Israel, and their right wing extremist beliefs. As our former coach once said, "Character revealed".
Good read for all the self-proclaimed Middle East scholars in Scoopdom, hey?
https://www.jns.org/the-late-great-hamas-finally-got-its-wish-and/
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 03:48:01 PM
To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.
I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.
oh? iran denies involvement?? well it depends on what is, is
john kirby is such a putz, he and kjp would make a lovely couple if not for, well, you know
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 11, 2023, 06:39:11 PM
oh? iran denies involvement?? well it depends on what is, is
john kirby is such a putz, he and kjp would make a lovely couple if not for, well, you know
WTF are you even talking about? I said that CIA hasn't yet found evidence, but my guess is they will. And you follow up with this nonsense?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 06:29:05 PM
Good read for all the self-proclaimed Middle East scholars in Scoopdom, hey?
https://www.jns.org/the-late-great-hamas-finally-got-its-wish-and/
An opinion column from the Sheldon Adelson paper complaining extensively about Obama, wokeism, and Harvard; written by the outspoken supporter of the Iraq war and Donald Rumsfeld who wrote a column warning his children to be careful of young black men in cities. Checks all the boxes I suppose!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 11, 2023, 06:29:05 PM
Good read for all the self-proclaimed Middle East scholars in Scoopdom, hey?
https://www.jns.org/the-late-great-hamas-finally-got-its-wish-and/
Who said they were scholars about the Middle East? The only ones speaking with certainty are you and Muggsy. Are you an expert we should be listening to?
The discussion has been nuanced with lots of back and forth except for a few that are CERTAIN they have the answers.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 07:02:18 PM
Who said they were scholars about the Middle East? The only ones speaking with certainty are you and Muggsy. Are you an expert we should be listening to?
The discussion has been nuanced with lots of back and forth except for a few that are CERTAIN they have the answers.
There is no nuance to a group of people who murder and behead babies Reeko. Zero. And I've noticed you and others are basically indifferent about these scumbags, haven't denounced BLM, Talib, fkbags at universities, Bernie's asinine comments, etc, etc, etc. Let me tell you something, and that goes for all of you that are writing or intimating that this is "complicated" or there's some sort of moral equivalency between Israel's policies towards Palestinians and what happened Saturday, WAKE THE F UP.
I appreciate some of Biden's comments but if I was in charge not only would every Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Islamic terrorists be eviscerated within a week, I would have destroyed Iran's nuclear facilities on Sunday. I would annex the fking country if need be. I will continue to stand by 🇮🇱 and a lot of you need to take a good look in the mirror and find your soul which is clearly bankrupt.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 07:13:54 PM
There is no nuance to a group of people who murder and behead babies Reeko. Zero. And I've noticed you and others are basically indifferent about these scumbags, haven't denounced BLM, Talib, fkbags at universities, Bernie's asinine comments, etc, etc, etc. Let me tell you something, and that goes for all of you that are writing or intimating that this is "complicated" or there's some sort of moral equivalency between Israel's policies towards Palestinians and what happened Saturday, WAKE THE F UP.
I appreciate some of Biden's comments but if I was in charge not only would every Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Islamic terrorists be eviscerated within a week, I would have destroyed Iran's nuclear facilities on Sunday. I would annex the fking country if need be. I will continue to stand by 🇮🇱 and a lot of you need to take a good look in tbe mirror and find soul which is clearly bankrupt.
LOL...OK.
Thought you were going to sit this one out. You get more looney with each post.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 07:13:54 PM
There is no nuance to a group of people who murder and behead babies Reeko. Zero. And I've noticed you and others are basically indifferent about these scumbags, haven't denounced BLM, Talib, fkbags at universities, Bernie's asinine comments, etc, etc, etc. Let me tell you something, and that goes for all of you that are writing or intimating that this is "complicated" or there's some sort of moral equivalency between Israel's policies towards Palestinians and what happened Saturday, WAKE THE F UP.
I appreciate some of Biden's comments but if I was in charge not only would every Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Islamic terrorists be eviscerated within a week, I would have destroyed Iran's nuclear facilities on Sunday. I would annex the fking country if need be. I will continue to stand by 🇮🇱 and a lot of you need to take a good look in tbe mirror and find soul which is clearly bankrupt.
Ah, yes. We're the ones with bankrupt souls when we don't want to send Americans to die in the Middle East. We're the ones with bankrupt souls who want to annex a country with no plan in place on what to do afterwards.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 07:16:16 PM
LOL...OK.
Thought you were going to sit this one out. You get more looney with each post.
And yes Fluffy, I realize 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. Duh.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 07:20:27 PM
Ah, yes. We're the ones with bankrupt souls when we don't want to send Americans to die in the Middle East. We're the ones with bankrupt souls who want to annex a country with no plan in place on what to do afterwards.
Don't worry. Muggs will make some donations.
Does Muggsy believe Rambo movies are documentaries?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 07:23:33 PM
Don't worry. Muggs will make some donations.
You're complicit with Hamas for not denouncing what's happening on campuses across this country
Quote from: Pakuni on October 11, 2023, 07:26:35 PM
Does Muggsy believe Rambo movies are documentaries?
What if we send Commander Biden?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 07:13:54 PM
There is no nuance to a group of people who murder and behead babies Reeko. Zero. And I've noticed you and others are basically indifferent about these scumbags, haven't denounced BLM, Talib, fkbags at universities, Bernie's asinine comments, etc, etc, etc. Let me tell you something, and that goes for all of you that are writing or intimating that this is "complicated" or there's some sort of moral equivalency between Israel's policies towards Palestinians and what happened Saturday, WAKE THE F UP.
I appreciate some of Biden's comments but if I was in charge not only would every Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Islamic terrorists be eviscerated within a week, I would have destroyed Iran's nuclear facilities on Sunday. I would annex the fking country if need be. I will continue to stand by 🇮🇱 and a lot of you need to take a good look in tbe mirror and find your soul which is clearly bankrupt.
Not a single person here has claimed to be in favor of the atrocities committed. You're stirring yourself up into a frenzy and making things up as a result.
Also what exactly do you want Tlaib (not Talib) to do aside from lament the loss of life of innocent people, say she hopes that her family in Gaza gets bombed?
Maybe focus your energy on what you can do to help the victims of this humanitarian disaster rather than dissecting statements and actions from those you think aren't making strong enough condemnations and stomping around screaming about starting world war 3.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 07:29:04 PM
What if we send Commander Biden?
Muggsy would never put an animal in harm's way. Let the soldiers die instead.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 07:13:54 PM
There is no nuance to a group of people who murder and behead babies Reeko. Zero. And I've noticed you and others are basically indifferent about these scumbags, haven't denounced BLM, Talib, fkbags at universities, Bernie's asinine comments, etc, etc, etc. Let me tell you something, and that goes for all of you that are writing or intimating that this is "complicated" or there's some sort of moral equivalency between Israel's policies towards Palestinians and what happened Saturday, WAKE THE F UP.
I appreciate some of Biden's comments but if I was in charge not only would every Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Islamic terrorists be eviscerated within a week, I would have destroyed Iran's nuclear facilities on Sunday. I would annex the fking country if need be. I will continue to stand by 🇮🇱 and a lot of you need to take a good look in the mirror and find your soul which is clearly bankrupt.
Dude, do yourself a favor and get off of scoop for the next 48 hours (at least). You're gonna blow a gasket.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 07:13:54 PM
There is no nuance to a group of people who murder and behead babies Reeko. Zero. And I've noticed you and others are basically indifferent about these scumbags, haven't denounced BLM, Talib, fkbags at universities, Bernie's asinine comments, etc, etc, etc. Let me tell you something, and that goes for all of you that are writing or intimating that this is "complicated" or there's some sort of moral equivalency between Israel's policies towards Palestinians and what happened Saturday, WAKE THE F UP.
I appreciate some of Biden's comments but if I was in charge not only would every Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Islamic terrorists be eviscerated within a week, I would have destroyed Iran's nuclear facilities on Sunday. I would annex the fking country if need be. I will continue to stand by 🇮🇱 and a lot of you need to take a good look in the mirror and find your soul which is clearly bankrupt.
I actually appreciate your fervor, but you absolutely would not do this if you were in charge. No humane person would. No condemner of brutality and abhorrent, murderous, terrorist acts would. Your response, while understandable, is in itself complicated. This situation is complicated, my Marquette brother, denouncing Hamas is not. It has been complicated for 80 years, actually for centuries and centuries. Telling people to wake the F up does you no good and it undermines your passion. It's intellectually lazy, mean, and dismissive. You're not that person, I am certain of that.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that what Hamas did is despicable, abhorrent, an atrocity. I wholeheartedly disagree with your call to decimate a people, a country, steal land, steal oil. We absolutely do not have to 1000% stand with Israel, we can stand with Jews. With Muslims. With those who want peace. With the families whose loved ones were senselessly murdered, raped, tortured.
What do you suspect will happen if you were to implement your plan? (Meant to be a legit, serious question.)
If only the entire military in history had the expertise of Muggsy think how many lives would've been saved
I'm just trying to figure out how to design a flag with 51 stars now that we've annexed Iran.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 08:11:50 PM
I'm just trying to figure out how to design a flag with 51 stars now that we've annexed Iran.
They're just going to be like Puerto Rico or Guam where we totally democratically don't allow them to vote for their leader.
Would probably have to add a line from A Flock of Seagulls
...and Iran
Iran so far away-y-y
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 07:29:04 PM
What if we send Commander Biden?
Anti-semitic.
Commander is a GERMAN Shepherd.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 11, 2023, 08:11:50 PM
I'm just trying to figure out how to design a flag with 51 stars now that we've annexed Iran.
This made me chuckle
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 07:13:54 PM
haven't denounced BLM
Why would anyone need to denounce BLM in this?
Ohhh, you were fooled yet again?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 11, 2023, 07:27:06 PM
You're complicit with Hamas for not denouncing what's happening on campuses across this country
Would that be the "plethora of disturbing protests" that Muggsy can't (surprise!) source?
Quote from: tower912 on October 11, 2023, 08:17:37 PM
Would probably have to add a line from A Flock of Seagulls
...and Iran
Iran so far away-y-y
Nice
Quote from: SoCalEagle on October 11, 2023, 07:37:21 PM
Dude, do yourself a favor and get off of scoop for the next 48 hours (at least). You're gonna blow a gasket.
I post this with only sincerity.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8Eewi1XwAAknvK?format=jpg&name=medium)
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 11, 2023, 08:47:59 PM
Why would anyone need to denounce BLM in this?
Ohhh, you were fooled yet again?
https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-matter-praises-hamas-sparks-backlash-1833630
if they wouldn't have spent all their money donated to them to help the black and brown people they profess to support, maybe have some for hamas too?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 11, 2023, 09:41:21 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-matter-praises-hamas-sparks-backlash-1833630
if they wouldn't have spent all their money donated to them to help the black and brown people they profess to support, maybe have some for hamas too?
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/20/viral-image/no-black-lives-matter-didnt-say-it-stands-hamas-te/
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 11, 2023, 07:13:54 PM
There is no nuance to a group of people who murder and behead babies Reeko. Zero. And I've noticed you and others are basically indifferent about these scumbags, haven't denounced BLM, Talib, fkbags at universities, Bernie's asinine comments, etc, etc, etc. Let me tell you something, and that goes for all of you that are writing or intimating that this is "complicated" or there's some sort of moral equivalency between Israel's policies towards Palestinians and what happened Saturday, WAKE THE F UP.
I appreciate some of Biden's comments but if I was in charge not only would every Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other Islamic terrorists be eviscerated within a week, I would have destroyed Iran's nuclear facilities on Sunday. I would annex the fking country if need be. I will continue to stand by 🇮🇱 and a lot of you need to take a good look in the mirror and find your soul which is clearly bankrupt.
Look, you're reactionary. I get it. There is no confirmation of babies being beheaded. The IDF won''t say it because it didn't happen. The kids are dead all the same.
But so are thousands of kids that live in the Gaza Strip. Babies, teenagers, and toddlers. Killed all the same by indiscriminate bombing. If you can't say both are horrific, then you're a piece of trash too.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 11, 2023, 09:41:21 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-matter-praises-hamas-sparks-backlash-1833630
if they wouldn't have spent all their money donated to them to help the black and brown people they profess to support, maybe have some for hamas too?
As I said, fooled again. Fools are easily fooled though. Why do you suppose the right wing feels the need to lie to smear BLM?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/3f/aa/ngNYtqzn_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/ngNYtqzn)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 11, 2023, 07:33:47 PM
Muggsy would never put an animal in harm's way. Let the soldiers die instead.
Muggsy would never put Muggsy in harm's way.
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on October 11, 2023, 08:23:49 PM
Anti-semitic.
Commander is a GERMAN Shepherd.
But if we send Commander to help Israel? Or are we afraid he's a double agent? Maybe I didn't think this one through
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 11, 2023, 09:41:21 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-matter-praises-hamas-sparks-backlash-1833630
if they wouldn't have spent all their money donated to them to help the black and brown people they profess to support, maybe have some for hamas too?
10 out of 10
Another brilliant post the Marquette Dental School can proudly use to recruit new students to show the value of the education one would receive.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12617395/amp/Israeli-mom-MSNBC-Andrea-Mitchell-Gaza.html
'Hezbollah is very smart'
In comparison to da Buffoon, so is a chimp. See the video in the context in which it was delivered. Trump is not wrong, hey?
Quote from: tower912 on October 12, 2023, 09:28:04 AM
'Hezbollah is very smart'
Was waiting for someone to post this. I wonder if Biden had said it if there would be a post like this.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 09:30:27 AM
In comparison to da Buffoon, so is a chimp. See the video in the context in which it was delivered. Trump is not wrong, hey?
Biden formed a coalition and stood strong with Ukraine. He is forming a coalition and is standing strong with Israel. He is being praised worldwide for his strong, steady, dignified leadership during these crises.
Israelis are weeping their praise and gratitude to the US.
And then there is you.
He is the reason for the season. Weak, weak, weak, hey?
Bless your heart.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 09:43:29 AM
He is the reason for the season. Weak, weak, weak, hey?
Putin and his gutted military agree.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 09:43:29 AM
He is the reason for the season. Weak, weak, weak, hey?
IMO, Biden is not a good president (we have had very few if any of merit in my voting lifetime), but he handled himself with dignity and his speech was actually solid.
How is he to blame for what is happening in Israel/Palestine? His record as a senator, strength shown as president? Both? I'm sure something he has been part of over the years has had some bearing on the situation, I am genuinely curious what that is.
4never is just trolling ar this point. There is not a single fact on his side, but he knows he can get a reaction.
So, bless his heart.
Quote from: tower912 on October 12, 2023, 09:53:32 AM
4never is just trolling ar this point. There is not a single fact on his side, but he knows he can get a reaction.
So, bless his heart.
Perhaps, and maybe likely, I don't know. I'd like to hear what he is using as his basis.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 12, 2023, 09:52:14 AM
IMO, Biden is not a good president (we have had very few if any of merit in my voting lifetime), but he handled himself with dignity and his speech was actually solid.
How is he to blame for what is happening in Israel/Palestine? His record as a senator, strength shown as president? Both? I'm sure something he has been part of over the years has had some bearing on the situation, I am genuinely curious what that is.
He warez a dyper, he iz deementud, he iz da buffoon. doze ar da onlee fax u kneed, oona?
Quote from: tower912 on October 12, 2023, 09:53:32 AM
4never is just trolling ar this point. There is not a single fact on his side, but he knows he can get a reaction.
So, bless his heart.
Barack Hussein Obama
Quote from: MU82 on October 12, 2023, 09:57:38 AM
He warez a dyper, he iz deementud, he iz da buffoon. doze ar da onlee fax u kneed, oona?
Duh, how could I forget, I've only read it 100 times 😁
Tommy Tuberville thinks we shouldn't pick sides here.
Tuberville said in an interview with WBRC Alabama this week, "The problem is, when you start picking sides in the Middle East, it can get really messy very quick."
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4252034-white-house-tubervilles-warning-israel-hamas-war-picking-sides/
And the American military is currently weakened because of him
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 12, 2023, 09:52:14 AM
IMO, Biden is not a good president (we have had very few if any of merit in my voting lifetime), but he handled himself with dignity and his speech was actually solid.
How is he to blame for what is happening in Israel/Palestine? His record as a senator, strength shown as president? Both? I'm sure something he has been part of over the years has had some bearing on the situation, I am genuinely curious what that is.
That's pretty much how I feel. I'm far from a Biden fan and have been critical of his administration in a variety of ways, but I've been very impressed by the WH's statements and Biden personally this week. Well done by them
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 09:25:32 AM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12617395/amp/Israeli-mom-MSNBC-Andrea-Mitchell-Gaza.html
What an asinine line of questioning looking for a gotcha moment
Quote from: Pakuni on October 12, 2023, 10:01:25 AM
Tommy Tuberville thinks we shouldn't pick sides here.
Tuberville said in an interview with WBRC Alabama this week, "The problem is, when you start picking sides in the Middle East, it can get really messy very quick."
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4252034-white-house-tubervilles-warning-israel-hamas-war-picking-sides/
Tommy couldn't pick sides as a head coach, so checks out.
In short, the entire world no longer fears the U.S. Biden has weakened the military, opened our borders, and bungled Afghanistan. His actions and reactions promote other countries to act without fear of U.S. retaliation or response.
Its just a matter of time before we see an attack from within our country. What are the consequences, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 10:10:00 AM
Its just a matter of time before we see an attack from within our country. What are the consequences, hey?
We already did on his congressional confirmation day. I know where I'm placing my bets the next one comes from.
Indeed. We have already seen attacks from within. So many groups that are the spiritual children of Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph.
#Project 2025
#Red Caesar
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 10:10:00 AM
In short, the entire world no longer fears the U.S. Biden has weakened the military, opened our borders, and bungled Afghanistan. His actions and reactions promote other countries to act without fear of U.S. retaliation or response.
Its just a matter of time before we see an attack from within our country. What are the consequences, hey?
I suppose if we want to be feared as a nation or have a "stronger" (opinion) military, you might have a point. I'm not sure what is meant by opening borders, if you mean Mexican borders, I don't think they are opening. I think some of these countries have always wanted us to respond.
Your point about seeing an attack within our country is super interesting. My wife and I were discussing something like that in the last couple days. We have good discussions as we are markedly different sounding/looking on the surface but have worked hard to find our common, human, compassionate, reasoned beliefs.
Some might argue we have already been attacked in our country and some may even say we are currently being terrorized from within and from outside. If we want Israel to decimate Gaza/Palestine for a small yet powerful terrorist organization, do we want our strong/weakened military to obliterate the US? Clearly, Hamas is a terrorist organization that has committed unspeakable atrocities we do not see in the US by our internal extremist groups, full stop. But, if we don't stop them now, will they become increasingly aggressive and murderous? I thought it was an interesting line of thinking.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 10:10:00 AM
In short, the entire world no longer fears the U.S. Biden has weakened the military, opened our borders, and bungled Afghanistan. His actions and reactions promote other countries to act without fear of U.S. retaliation or response.
Its just a matter of time before we see an attack from within our country. What are the consequences, hey?
Did Reagan's weakness cause the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon, the Lockerbie bombing and the first Intifada?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 12, 2023, 10:22:14 AM
Did Reagan's weakness cause the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon, the Lockerbie bombing and the first Intifada?
Yes and Bush caused 9-11 but Clinton caused the embassy bombings and the Cole bombings so it equals out
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 10:10:00 AM
In short, the entire world no longer fears the U.S. Biden has weakened the military, opened our borders, and bungled Afghanistan. His actions and reactions promote other countries to act without fear of U.S. retaliation or response.
Its just a matter of time before we see an attack from within our country. What are the consequences, hey?
With all due respect, I can't speak to the enemies of the US, but from a global perspective, views of the US as a global super power haven't shifted much, if at all. I talk to people from SE Asia, India, and the Middle East weekly, and I don't hear it from them, and we talk geopolitics A LOT as it directly impacts our business. And these are people that stand to gain greatly business wise from the rise of BRICS and/or a de-emphasis on the dollar.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 12, 2023, 10:01:25 AM
Tommy Tuberville thinks we shouldn't pick sides here.
Tuberville said in an interview with WBRC Alabama this week, "The problem is, when you start picking sides in the Middle East, it can get really messy very quick."
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4252034-white-house-tubervilles-warning-israel-hamas-war-picking-sides/
Was this before or after he fell down the stairs getting out of that jet?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 12, 2023, 10:29:55 AM
Was this before or after he fell down the stairs getting out of that jet?
Normally I don't "joke down" as taught to me by my late father in law, but if you haven't seen the video of him falling with the opening drums from Phil Collins "In the Air Tonight" you're missing out.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 10:10:00 AM
In short, the entire world no longer fears the U.S. Biden has weakened the military, opened our borders, and bungled Afghanistan. His actions and reactions promote other countries to act without fear of U.S. retaliation or response.
Its just a matter of time before we see an attack from within our country. What are the consequences, hey?
unfortunately doc, you are right on. we do not proudly admit this. let's see how long the general "outrage" lasts. just as 9-1-1, the outrage lasted, oh, about what? 1-2-3 weeks max, then the U.S. is to blame crowd slowly came back to life and is now acceptable to continue that blather. pulling out of afghanistan the WAY we did only emboldened the terrorists
too many things going arse backwards with every decision the "big guy" has put forth.
our strategic oil reserves are dangerously low
wide open border has allowed who knows how many terrorists and other country's worst in and roaming around.
the cartels are partnering with hamas and isis.
$80 billion worth of high tech military equipment left for terrorists putting them automatically into line with some of the most powerful militarys in the world.
our military recruitment numbers are way down due to the "policies" of this regime
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 12, 2023, 10:29:55 AM
Was this before or after he fell down the stairs getting out of that jet?
oh boy, don't start with the falling down stuff
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 12, 2023, 10:45:52 AM
unfortunately doc, you are right on. we do not proudly admit this. let's see how long the general "outrage" lasts. just as 9-1-1, the outrage lasted, oh, about what? 1-2-3 weeks max, then the U.S. is to blame crowd slowly came back to life and is now acceptable to continue that blather. pulling out of afghanistan the WAY we did only emboldened the terrorists
too many things going arse backwards with every decision the "big guy" has put forth.
our strategic oil reserves are dangerously low
wide open border has allowed who knows how many terrorists and other country's worst in and roaming around.
the cartels are partnering with hamas and isis.
$80 billion worth of high tech military equipment left for terrorists putting them automatically into line with some of the most powerful militarys in the world.
our military recruitment numbers are way down due to the "policies" of this regime
7.5 out of 10
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 12, 2023, 10:45:52 AM
$80 billion worth of high tech military equipment left for terrorists putting them automatically into line with some of the most powerful militarys in the world.
Right wing disinformation never really dies. At best, after it has been shown to be false, it hibernates for a little while before, cockroach-like, crawling back out from under the refrigerator, spewed from the mouths of morons who have no interest in actual facts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DgZXp1PGnI
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 12, 2023, 10:52:37 AM
Right wing disinformation never really dies. At best, after it has been shown to be false, it hibernates for a little while before, cockroach-like, crawling back out from under the refrigerator, spewed from the mouths of morons who have no interest in actual facts.
I saw a thing this morning completing disproving as military experts identified the so-called "high Tech Equipment" was from North Korea, China & Iran. Nothing from the West.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 12, 2023, 10:47:06 AM
oh boy, don't start with the falling down stuff
I think it's pretty funny to make fun of a guy falling down the stairs who had earlier made fun of a guy falling down the stairs.
If you don't see the humor on that, that's on you.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 12, 2023, 11:00:29 AM
I saw a thing this morning completing disproving as military experts identified the so-called "high Tech Equipment" was from North Korea, China & Iran. Nothing from the West.
It's part of the buffoons deep state plot to make the military put rainbows on planes
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 12, 2023, 11:00:29 AM
I saw a thing this morning completing disproving as military experts identified the so-called "high Tech Equipment" was from North Korea, China & Iran. Nothing from the West.
Not to mention the equipment left behind is left in a destroyed state or requires a ton of maintenance to remain functional.
But you know, number big, so outrage.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 12, 2023, 11:00:29 AM
I saw a thing this morning completing disproving as military experts identified the so-called "high Tech Equipment" was from North Korea, China & Iran. Nothing from the West.
Dentists don't really care about your facts
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2023, 10:56:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DgZXp1PGnI
Appreciate you sharing this, normally I don't go out of my way to watch him, really none of the mainstream talking heads. Lots of facts and emotions in that video (some opinions, of course, but really it's about the facts and his personal ties and emotions that matter in his video). I could feel his pain, and certainly wish him peace.
Oh bother, what are they going to complain about now?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/12/iran-oil-fund-us-israel/
Quote from: Pakuni on October 12, 2023, 12:04:31 PM
Oh bother, what are they going to complain about now?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/12/iran-oil-fund-us-israel/
The more the administration supports Israel, it'll either be it's not enough or if it goes on long enough, complaining that we're stuck supporting a losing cause.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 12, 2023, 10:45:52 AM
unfortunately doc, you are right on. we do not proudly admit this. let's see how long the general "outrage" lasts. just as 9-1-1, the outrage lasted, oh, about what? 1-2-3 weeks max, then the U.S. is to blame crowd slowly came back to life and is now acceptable to continue that blather. pulling out of afghanistan the WAY we did only emboldened the terrorists
too many things going arse backwards with every decision the "big guy" has put forth.
our strategic oil reserves are dangerously low
wide open border has allowed who knows how many terrorists and other country's worst in and roaming around.
the cartels are partnering with hamas and isis.
$80 billion worth of high tech military equipment left for terrorists putting them automatically into line with some of the most powerful militarys in the world.
our military recruitment numbers are way down due to the "policies" of this regime
Given that you worship Putin's puppet, I guess it's not surprising that you're really on a roll with the misinformation and outright lies about this whole Israel situation.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 12, 2023, 10:45:52 AM
unfortunately doc, you are right on. we do not proudly admit this. let's see how long the general "outrage" lasts. just as 9-1-1, the outrage lasted, oh, about what? 1-2-3 weeks max, then the U.S. is to blame crowd slowly came back to life and is now acceptable to continue that blather.
The patriot act was a one time thing
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 12, 2023, 10:48:30 AM
7.5 out of 10
I mean, it's at least an 8 for bemoaning the "US is the blame crowd" while also blaming the U.S. for everything bad in the world.
From the NYT:
The United States and Qatar have agreed to deny Iran's access to $6 billion in funds recently transferred to the nation as part of a deal between Washington and Tehran that led to the release of five imprisoned Americans from Iran last month.
Wally Adeyemo, the deputy Treasury secretary, told House Democrats on Thursday that Iran would no longer have access to the funds, according to a person familiar with the matter. The money was under close supervision and strict conditions that it be used only for humanitarian purposes.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 12, 2023, 01:00:03 PM
I mean, it's at least an 8 for bemoaning the "US is the blame crowd" while also blaming the U.S. for everything bad in the world.
No ellipsis' and didn't mention Hunter or ice cream. 3 air quotes bumped it from a 6.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 12, 2023, 10:45:52 AM
unfortunately doc, you are right on. we do not proudly admit this. let's see how long the general "outrage" lasts. just as 9-1-1, the outrage lasted, oh, about what? 1-2-3 weeks max, then the U.S. is to blame crowd slowly came back to life and is now acceptable to continue that blather. pulling out of afghanistan the WAY we did only emboldened the terrorists
too many things going arse backwards with every decision the "big guy" has put forth.
our strategic oil reserves are dangerously low
wide open border has allowed who knows how many terrorists and other country's worst in and roaming around.
the cartels are partnering with hamas and isis.
$80 billion worth of high tech military equipment left for terrorists putting them automatically into line with some of the most powerful militarys in the world.
our military recruitment numbers are way down due to the "policies" of this regime
1. We produce more oil than we consume.
2. We don't have open borders
3. Provided with absolutely no evidence.
4. A conservative media talking point that has been debunked
5. Military recruitment is down because the job market is strong.
So 0-5. Congrats.
Quote from: MU82 on October 12, 2023, 01:06:20 PM
From the NYT:
The United States and Qatar have agreed to deny Iran's access to $6 billion in funds recently transferred to the nation as part of a deal between Washington and Tehran that led to the release of five imprisoned Americans from Iran last month.
Wally Adeyemo, the deputy Treasury secretary, told House Democrats on Thursday that Iran would no longer have access to the funds, according to a person familiar with the matter. The money was under close supervision and strict conditions that it be used only for humanitarian purposes.
Huh. How about that....
Quote from: MU82 on October 12, 2023, 01:06:20 PM
From the NYT:
The United States and Qatar have agreed to deny Iran's access to $6 billion in funds recently transferred to the nation as part of a deal between Washington and Tehran that led to the release of five imprisoned Americans from Iran last month.
Wally Adeyemo, the deputy Treasury secretary, told House Democrats on Thursday that Iran would no longer have access to the funds, according to a person familiar with the matter. The money was under close supervision and strict conditions that it be used only for humanitarian purposes.
I can't believe they didn't spend any of it. I mean when I was at MU and my parents put $50 in my bank account, I was at the TYME machine in about 10 minutes.
There were always clearly defined limits, restrictions, and hoops to jump through. Those held.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 12, 2023, 01:33:59 PM
I can't believe they didn't spend any of it. I mean when I was at MU and my parents put $50 in my bank account, I was at the TYME machine in about 10 minutes.
That's cause we had the 'Lanche, and Iranians don't drink.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 12, 2023, 10:45:52 AM
the cartels are partnering with hamas and isis.
Come on man...
Let's think. What do cartels like besides money? Drugs, drinking, hookers/free and conspicuous sex...not to mention Mexico is a heavily Catholic country. So why they hell would they be of interest to a group that abhors all of that. There is no "enemy of my enemy is my friend" with Hamas. They kill their friends who don't hate their enemies enough. And the cartels have ZERO interest in the destruction of the US that Hamas would want, why would they kill their entire customer base?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 12, 2023, 01:50:23 PM
Come on man...
Let's think. What do cartels like besides money? Drugs, drinking, hookers/free and conspicuous sex...not to mention Mexico is a heavily Catholic country. So why they hell would they be of interest to a group that abhors all of that. There is no "enemy of my enemy is my friend" with Hamas. They kill their friends who don't hate their enemies enough. And the cartels have ZERO interest in the destruction of the US that Hamas would want, why would they kill their entire customer base?
I'm old enough to remember when the cartels were partnering with Al Qaeda.
Not to detract from the politics laden stuff, but this concerns me a bit.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12621915/khaled-meshaal-hamas-friday-13th-day-jihad.html
(https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12621915/khaled-meshaal-hamas-friday-13th-day-jihad.html)
Calling for uprisings/protests and violence throughout the Middle East tomorrow. I know a few people in the know, and they are taking this threat very seriously and preparing for violence that could spread and escalate. Hopefully it remains just a threat and doesn't become a reality.
My biggest fear in all of this is essentially what Muggsy has proposed. That this grows from a Gaza/Israel engagement into something more global.
Well that'd be an interesting end to the world.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 12, 2023, 01:33:59 PM
I can't believe they didn't spend any of it. I mean when I was at MU and my parents put $50 in my bank account, I was at the TYME machine in about 10 minutes.
As has been explained here numerous times in very simple terms - they never had access to that money. Period.
One roqqet (or two, if you count 4ever) is already too many. IOW, don't be a roqqet.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 12, 2023, 01:21:11 PM
1. We produce more oil than we consume.
2. We don't have open borders
3. Provided with absolutely no evidence.
4. A conservative media talking point that has been debunked
5. Military recruitment is down because the job market is strong.
So 0-5. Congrats.
Ok Mayorkas. Whatever you say. Nice fantasy world you're in.
Quote from: Jockey on October 12, 2023, 02:36:43 PM
As has been explained here numerous times in very simple terms - they never had access to that money. Period.
One roqqet (or two, if you count 4ever) is already too many. IOW, don't be a roqqet.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/018/467/1355331549061.jpg)
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 12, 2023, 02:41:01 PM
Ok Mayorkas. Whatever you say. Nice fantasy world you're in.
Open borders mean that people can legally enter the country without any, or not significant, border controls. That doesn't describe the United States.
I know...there goes the narrative.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 12, 2023, 02:42:40 PM
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/018/467/1355331549061.jpg)
Thanks, Dog. The joke was obvious but
I overreacted because several others here lied about the $6M.
That hardly ever happens. ::)
Quote from: forgetful on October 12, 2023, 02:01:08 PM
Not to detract from the politics laden stuff, but this concerns me a bit.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12621915/khaled-meshaal-hamas-friday-13th-day-jihad.html
(https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12621915/khaled-meshaal-hamas-friday-13th-day-jihad.html)
Calling for uprisings/protests and violence throughout the Middle East tomorrow. I know a few people in the know, and they are taking this threat very seriously and preparing for violence that could spread and escalate. Hopefully it remains just a threat and doesn't become a reality.
My biggest fear in all of this is essentially what Muggsy has proposed. That this grows from a Gaza/Israel engagement into something more global.
Secure synagogues across the United States, around the world, and deliver room service to this scumfk at that 5 star hotel in Qatar with a bullet to his head.
We have 27 dead Americans so far. We have engaged in war type operations over far fewer American deaths. Take every one of these fkbags out and tell Iran's leaders if one American hostage is killed you will be formally introduced to utter darkness.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 12, 2023, 03:04:48 PM
We have 27 dead Americans so far. We have engaged in war type operations over far fewer American deaths. Take every one of these fkbags out and tell Iran's leaders if one American hostage is killed you will be formally introduced to utter darkness.
Breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, hold for four.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 12, 2023, 03:04:48 PM
We have 27 dead Americans so far. We have engaged in war type operations over far fewer American deaths. Take every one of these fkbags out and tell Iran's leaders if one American hostage is killed you will be formally introduced to utter darkness.
We don't negotiate for hostages.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 12, 2023, 03:04:48 PM
We have 27 dead Americans so far. We have engaged in war type operations over far fewer American deaths. Take every one of these fkbags out and tell Iran's leaders if one American hostage is killed you will be formally introduced to utter darkness.
It took us almost 10 years to find and kill bin Laden, yet you think we're taking out Hamas - a fighting force of an estimated 25,000 - and the entire Iranian regime in couple of days.
Quote from: forgetful on October 12, 2023, 02:01:08 PM
Not to detract from the politics laden stuff, but this concerns me a bit.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12621915/khaled-meshaal-hamas-friday-13th-day-jihad.html
(https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12621915/khaled-meshaal-hamas-friday-13th-day-jihad.html)
Calling for uprisings/protests and violence throughout the Middle East tomorrow. I know a few people in the know, and they are taking this threat very seriously and preparing for violence that could spread and escalate. Hopefully it remains just a threat and doesn't become a reality.
My biggest fear in all of this is essentially what Muggsy has proposed. That this grows from a Gaza/Israel engagement into something more global.
I was told by a friend that NYPD and others are staffing in preparation for tomorrow. Could very well just be some rowdy protesting or nothing at all. We can hope but clearly it's viewed as more than fluff
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 12, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, hold for four.
I guarantee that the violent rhetoric will seep into his basketball posts.
...attacking downhill with violence...
Quote from: Jockey on October 12, 2023, 04:19:42 PM
I guarantee that the violent rhetoric will seep into his basketball posts.
No, it won't. If we know where this guy is Jockey the answer is to dismiss him from the planet. And take out the Qataris protecting him as well. I've actually shown quite a bit of restraint with my anger. I have a 5 point plan that would take three weeks but because I am courteous to the patty-cake people here I will keep that to myself.
Citizens of Israel angry at Likud
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/in-the-israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-is-losing-at-home.html
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 12, 2023, 05:09:11 PM
No, it won't. If we know where this guy is Jockey the answer is to dismiss him from the planet. And take out the Qataris protecting him as well. I've actually shown quite a bit of restraint with my anger. I have a 5 point plan that would take three weeks but because I am courteous to the patty-cake people here I will keep that to myself.
Submit it to your congressman and senator.
Quote from: tower912 on October 12, 2023, 05:11:29 PM
Submit it to your congressman and senator.
And post it here too. I could use a good laugh.
From the WSJ:
Hamas militants who flooded into southern Israel from Gaza on Saturday carried detailed maps of the towns and military bases that they targeted.
Some carried tactical guides identifying weak spots on Israeli army armored vehicles. Israeli civilians, soldiers and emergency personnel recovered the documents, seen by WSJ, from the attack sites or bodies of dead Hamas fighters.
The detailed information, written in Arabic, indicates that Hamas had planned to attack civilian population centers and take hostages, not just target military installations. The documents also show the scale of Hamas's intelligence-gathering and planning.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 12, 2023, 05:09:11 PM
No, it won't. If we know where this guy is Jockey the answer is to dismiss him from the planet. And take out the Qataris protecting him as well. I've actually shown quite a bit of restraint with my anger. I have a 5 point plan that would take three weeks but because I am courteous to the patty-cake people here I will keep that to myself.
I would be genuinely interested in seeing this plan.
But Muggsy, you're a smart and educated guy with a lot of world travel and knowledge, yet again you're talking about attacking multiple sovereign nations like this is Call of Duty. Taking out a leader of Hamas? Ok, fine. But being fine blowing away a bunch of Qataris to do it? You want the US to go to war with the entire Middle East?
If Putin sent an elite special forces team to take out Zelenskyy when he was in the US, and took out a couple US soldiers/NYPD/UN Security to do so, you'd be apoplectic
Quote from: JWags85 on October 12, 2023, 06:05:23 PM
I would be genuinely interested in seeing this plan.
But Muggsy, you're a smart and educated guy with a lot of world travel and knowledge, yet again you're talking about attacking multiple sovereign nations like this is Call of Duty. Taking out a leader of Hamas? Ok, fine. But being fine blowing away a bunch of Qataris to do it? You want the US to go to war with the entire Middle East?
If Putin sent an elite special forces team to take out Zelenskyy when he was in the US, and took out a couple US soldiers/NYPD/UN Security to do so, you'd be apoplectic
Yep, all the while Mugsy et al are concerned that we lost 12 people exiting Afghanistan. Talk about cognitive dissonance
Quote from: tower912 on October 12, 2023, 05:11:29 PM
Submit it to your congressman and senator.
Should do a Wojo-style PowerPoint preso for the board....
Quote from: PointWarrior on October 12, 2023, 06:58:49 PM
Should do a Wojo-style PowerPoint preso for the board....
YES!!!! Hope it has animations....
...and talking animated animals...
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 12, 2023, 01:21:11 PM
1. We produce more oil than we consume.
2. We don't have open borders
3. Provided with absolutely no evidence.
4. A conservative media talking point that has been debunked
5. Military recruitment is down because the job market is strong.
So 0-5. Congrats.
Why would you want to spread disinformation and weaken America at a time like this?
Folks, this is your modern day Republican Party at work.
Quote from: PointWarrior on October 12, 2023, 06:58:49 PM
Should do a Wojo-style PowerPoint preso for the board....
Dictate the plan to Joey in the form of a letter
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/iran-israel-hamas-strike-planning-bbe07b25
Vs
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/politics/us-intelligence-iran-hamas-doubt/index.html
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 12, 2023, 08:53:00 PM
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/iran-israel-hamas-strike-planning-bbe07b25
Vs
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/politics/us-intelligence-iran-hamas-doubt/index.html
I unsubscribed from WSJ years ago. After the NewsCorp takeover they started having a loose relationship with truth on hot button issues and it's only gotten worse.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 12, 2023, 03:23:01 PM
I was told by a friend that NYPD and others are staffing in preparation for tomorrow. Could very well just be some rowdy protesting or nothing at all. We can hope but clearly it's viewed as more than fluff
I've had some contacts with people a little more on the military side and international defense saying they are preparing/mobilizing just in case. Could be scary times. Hopefully just bluster and threats, and nothing materializes.
Maybe it was in the previous 12 pages I didn't read but ..
Can anyone explain why the Israel needs a special aid package now, or yearly? I mean .. their budget is $125b .. yeah they had a budget deficit of $6b .. their debt rating is A+, so their rates have got to be very good. Their total debt is 1% of GDP (US' ratio is 98% of GDP).
The current "plan" for a special aid package is $3b, so .. in effect, we're borrowing $3b so Israel doesn't have to borrow it .. but it totally could?
They're our ally and everything, happy to park our assets nearby, but .. why does the debt go on our books?
Anyone explain?
Is the beheading babies thing true?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 13, 2023, 06:14:30 AM
Is the beheading babies thing true?
People say it, but no one in the Israeli government will confirm it.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 06:30:05 AM
People say it, but no one in the Israeli government will confirm it.
President Biden said he saw the pictures.
But those that really run the White House said he did not.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 12, 2023, 10:37:59 PM
Maybe it was in the previous 12 pages I didn't read but ..
Can anyone explain why the Israel needs a special aid package now, or yearly? I mean .. their budget is $125b .. yeah they had a budget deficit of $6b .. their debt rating is A+, so their rates have got to be very good. Their total debt is 1% of GDP (US' ratio is 98% of GDP).
The current "plan" for a special aid package is $3b, so .. in effect, we're borrowing $3b so Israel doesn't have to borrow it .. but it totally could?
They're our ally and everything, happy to park our assets nearby, but .. why does the debt go on our books?
Anyone explain?
Nearly 100% of US aid to Israel is military aid, with the goal of maintaining their "qualitative military edge" over other countries in the neighborhood. Their defense spend as a % of GDP is the highest in the world iirc.
If you have 30 minutes to skim a PDF, this is real interesting
U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel - FAS Project on Government Secrecy https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
I feel like the short answer to "why" is military industrial complex under the guise of national security and preserving democracy.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on October 13, 2023, 07:24:49 AM
Start another thread about it. Stop putting this nonsense in his one.
You would have thought he would have gotten the hint.
Heisey, this topic has revolved around the war itself - not your culture wars. Stay on topic please and don't get this one locked.
Alt right 'accuracy in media' organization rents a truck to doxx kids that are loosely associated with the groups that signed the thing in support of Hamas actions
Heisenberg: Look what jewish harvard students are doing!
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 13, 2023, 07:39:11 AM
Alt right 'accuracy in media' organization rents a truck to doxx kids that are loosely associated with the groups that signed the thing in support of Hamas actions
Heisenberg: Look what jewish harvard students are doing!
Canary Mission and ADL likely also involved in such things.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 12, 2023, 01:21:11 PM
1. We produce more oil than we consume.
2. We don't have open borders
3. Provided with absolutely no evidence.
4. A conservative media talking point that has been debunked
5. Military recruitment is down because the job market is strong.
So 0-5. Congrats.
Counter point to #2. The US definitely has a much more welcoming border then most 1st world countries.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 08:06:36 AM
Counter point to #2. The US definitely has a much more welcoming border then most 1st world countries.
You've obviously never left the continent.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 08:06:36 AM
Counter point to #2. The US definitely has a much more welcoming border then most 1st world countries.
Actually you can cross most first world borders without stopping.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 08:06:36 AM
Counter point to #2. The US definitely has a much more welcoming border then most 1st world countries.
I'm honestly curious, which countries are you talking about?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 13, 2023, 08:37:16 AM
I'm honestly curious, which countries are you talking about?
This reminds me of the old line about Milwaukee...
The only people that don't like Milwaukee are those who never visited
or never left.
It's clear some people have no perspective, no context.
So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 08:54:30 AM
So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?
Who here has "hated" on Israel?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 08:54:30 AM
So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?
Wtf are you even talking about?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 08:54:30 AM
So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Has anyone come across any resources that discuss the relationship between the average Gaza Palestinian and Hamas? With the evacuation order and Hamas's response, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian who resides in Northern Gaza and imagine what I would do. Like, is a Palestinian who tries to evacuate in danger of a reprisal from Hamas? Does Hamas operate any quasi-judicial system in Gaza and prosecute crime, etc.?
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 13, 2023, 09:01:44 AM
Has anyone come across any resources that discuss the relationship between the average Gaza Palestinian and Hamas? With the evacuation order and Hamas's response, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian who resides in Northern Gaza and imagine what I would do. Like, is a Palestinian who tries to evacuate in danger of a reprisal from Hamas? Does Hamas operate any quasi-judicial system in Gaza and prosecute crime, etc.?
That's a great question. Hamas is the de facto unelected government of the Gaza Strip. They won an election in 2006 and haven't allowed fair elections since... 17 years ago. For reference, something like half the population of the Gaza Strip is under the age of 18.
Personally, if I lived in Gaza right now, I'd be on the march to the South. There are videos online of the flood of people already moving. I doubt Hamas guns down these people... But honestly, who knows.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 13, 2023, 09:01:44 AM
Has anyone come across any resources that discuss the relationship between the average Gaza Palestinian and Hamas? With the evacuation order and Hamas's response, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian who resides in Northern Gaza and imagine what I would do. Like, is a Palestinian who tries to evacuate in danger of a reprisal from Hamas? Does Hamas operate any quasi-judicial system in Gaza and prosecute crime, etc.?
I don't think Hamas would attack them. I'd be pretty shocked by that. But if I'm an average Palestinian, I'm thinking four things. 1) Where do I go? There is no where to go. 2) They told Palestinians to leave Gaza by the southern border then bombed that border crossing 3x the next day, can they trust them? 3) If we leave, will what is left of their homes be taken and never given back. 4) What about my family and friends that can't travel at all.
Quote from: The Lens on October 13, 2023, 08:14:32 AM
You've obviously never left the continent.
You've obviously never tried to emigrate to Canada or the UK.
News flash, unless you're in a very specialized field, or rich, you have no chance.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 13, 2023, 08:37:16 AM
I'm honestly curious, which countries are you talking about?
Uk, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland etc...
Being able to emigrate to America is much easier then any of these places.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 09:16:49 AM
Uk, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland etc...
Being able to emigrate to America is much easier then any of these places.
I don't want to derail the thread, but while "open borders" can be a euphemism for the ease of immigration, the legal process for immigration vs the physical restrictions imposed by a nation's borders are two different discussions.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 08:54:30 AM
So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?
He's not a Scooper, thank goodness, but I hope you're adding the unquestioned leader of the GOP to your list, as he just criticized Israel and called Hezbollah "very smart." Aina.
I agree that Hamas probably won't be gunning down caravans of evacuees. But I assume that many Palestinians had fervent supporters/members of Hamas as their neighbors, police force (?), civil servants (again - ?), etc.
Its a hell of a double-edged sword for the average Gaza Palestinian to have to decide whether (1) I will evacuate on the assumption that the Israelis entirely take out Hamas, such that I don't have to fear for my safety upon my return (if ever) or (2) Hamas presents a more existential threat to my safety than the Israeli bombers and occupation force, and I am better off taking my chances that they don't kill me/I don't starve or die of dysentary over the next few weeks, to ensure that I'm not marked as an enemy of whatever godawful fundamentalist Islamic authority exists afterward.
Quote from: forgetful on October 13, 2023, 09:15:13 AM
I don't think Hamas would attack them. I'd be pretty shocked by that. But if I'm an average Palestinian, I'm thinking four things. 1) Where do I go? There is no where to go. 2) They told Palestinians to leave Gaza by the southern border then bombed that border crossing 3x the next day, can they trust them? 3) If we leave, will what is left of their homes be taken and never given back. 4) What about my family and friends that can't travel at all.
Of course Hamas "wouldn't do that". Obviously when you think ahout Hamas the first thing that comes to mind are the wonderful things they've done for innocent Palestinian citizens, how they've tried desperately to improve conditions economically, and are full of gumdrop smiles. They use their money in Gaza to improve every aspect of the average Palestinian's daily life. They're even headquartered under a hospital!! Just in case doctors and nurses need their immediate assistance! They should be beacon for the world for teaching all the kids how to make rockets before they are 7!!
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 13, 2023, 09:36:09 AM
I agree that Hamas probably won't be gunning down caravans of evacuees. But I assume that many Palestinians had fervent supporters/members of Hamas as their neighbors, police force (?), civil servants (again - ?), etc.
Its a hell of a double-edged sword for the average Gaza Palestinian to have to decide whether (1) I will evacuate on the assumption that the Israelis entirely take out Hamas, such that I don't have to fear for my safety upon my return (if ever) or (2) Hamas presents a more existential threat to my safety than the Israeli bombers and occupation force, and I am better off taking my chances that they don't kill me/I don't starve or die of dysentary over the next few weeks, to ensure that I'm not marked as an enemy of whatever godawful fundamentalist Islamic authority exists afterward.
IMO, Herzog just said what is going to happen. He said there will be no separation between civilians in Gaza and Hamas. Basically, anyone left behind will be treated as a combatant. This leads me to believe that there will be a full scale invasion of Northern Gaza... and potentially another Nakba where Northern Gaza (at least to start) becomes Israeli land. Palestinians who flee or leave will not be allowed back. This is the main reason people don't leave. They and their descendants will be refugees without a place to call home ever.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/15/75-years-later-israel-blocking-palestinian-refugees-return
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 09:50:25 AM
IMO, Herzog just said what is going to happen. He said there will be no separation between civilians in Gaza and Hamas. Basically, anyone left behind will be treated as a combatant. This leads me to believe that there will be a full scale invasion of Northern Gaza... and potentially another Nakba where Northern Gaza (at least to start) becomes Israeli land. Palestinians who flee or leave will not be allowed back. This is the main reason people don't leave. They and their descendants will be refugees without a place to call home ever.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/15/75-years-later-israel-blocking-palestinian-refugees-return
Just looked it up, Whitey Herzog is still alive and kickin
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 09:50:25 AM
IMO, Herzog just said what is going to happen. He said there will be no separation between civilians in Gaza and Hamas. Basically, anyone left behind will be treated as a combatant. This leads me to believe that there will be a full scale invasion of Northern Gaza... and potentially another Nakba where Northern Gaza (at least to start) becomes Israeli land. Palestinians who flee or leave will not be allowed back. This is the main reason people don't leave. They and their descendants will be refugees without a place to call home ever.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/15/75-years-later-israel-blocking-palestinian-refugees-return
Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do. Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.
They can cede that Hamas is evil and should be attacked/eliminated. But not as to inconvenience anyone in Gaza? 48 hours isn't enough time. So should they wait a week while Hamas moves all high value targets out and brings more reinforcements/weapons in?
Hamas is specifically telling people to ignore IDF evacuation orders, so since people are not evacuating, the IDF should just stand down?
It's a horrible and incredibly complex military situation. But the biggest issue, for me, is that neither the IDF or Hamas cares too much about Palestinian civilian repercussions in pursuit of their current mission. But the difference, for me, is that excessive civilian casualties actually benefit Hamas and can't be disregarded as it pertains to their strategy and mission. It's just awful all around
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 08:54:30 AM
So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?
thanks for the info, Roqqet.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 13, 2023, 10:38:55 AM
Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do. Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.
They can cede that Hamas is evil and should be attacked/eliminated. But not as to inconvenience anyone in Gaza? 48 hours isn't enough time. So should they wait a week while Hamas moves all high value targets out and brings more reinforcements/weapons in?
Hamas is specifically telling people to ignore IDF evacuation orders, so since people are not evacuating, the IDF should just stand down?
It's a horrible and incredibly complex military situation. But the biggest issue, for me, is that neither the IDF or Hamas cares too much about Palestinian civilian repercussions in pursuit of their current mission. But the difference, for me, is that excessive civilian casualties actually benefit Hamas and can't be disregarded as it pertains to their strategy and mission. It's just awful all around
Correct. This is why calling people anti-Semitic who point out it's a complicated situation is silly.
Israel has a right to defend itself and whoever harbors and protects the leaders of Hamas will suffer. Sadly, those that don't will also suffer. Hamas doesn't care and they will be the ones to blame. They'll get to claim Israel barbarism and create a new generation of terror.
How much should Egypt be involved in this? Are they really not allowing refugees to cross the border? How about giving Gaza back to Egypt?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 13, 2023, 10:38:55 AM
Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do. Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.
...
Agreed Wags. Its where the rubber hits the road on "we all agree these attacks were horrendous and Israel has a right and responsibility to defend itself." What does the exercise of that right and fulfillment of that responsibility actually look like? You raise a lot of the practical and difficult questions. I think we all agree that Israel doesn't have the right to carpetbomb Gaza to the ground. Or maybe it does if they have just warned civilians first? Where in this gray area do Israel's rights to defend itself under international law actually fall?
I have a nagging feeling that the nonrecognition of Palestine matters in some way here. Without the recognition of Palestine, the "War on Hamas" means about as much as the "War Against Terror" and precludes a formal war declaration as we know it. With the disclaimer that I am pushing the bounds of my international law knowledge, military action without a formal declaration of war would seem to raise Israel's level of responsibility vis-a-vis collateral damage, because Israel is not formally at war with a recognized civilian government. I'm probably missing something about the territorial status of Gaza among countries that do not recognize Palestine, but it seems like there should be
some downside to not recognizing an entity you then want to declare war on.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 13, 2023, 10:38:55 AM
Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do. Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.
They can cede that Hamas is evil and should be attacked/eliminated. But not as to inconvenience anyone in Gaza? 48 hours isn't enough time. So should they wait a week while Hamas moves all high value targets out and brings more reinforcements/weapons in?
Hamas is specifically telling people to ignore IDF evacuation orders, so since people are not evacuating, the IDF should just stand down?
It's a horrible and incredibly complex military situation. But the biggest issue, for me, is that neither the IDF or Hamas cares too much about Palestinian civilian repercussions in pursuit of their current mission. But the difference, for me, is that excessive civilian casualties actually benefit Hamas and can't be disregarded as it pertains to their strategy and mission. It's just awful all around
Outstanding post.
I wish I (or anyone) had outstanding answers to the questions you raise.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 09:16:49 AM
Uk, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland etc...
Being able to emigrate to America is much easier then any of these places.
Umm wait till you find out about the open borders between EU nations and the open border between Ireland and UK.
I mean sure if you ignore 26 other EU nations that can enter and live in Germany freely then I'm sure it's real difficult but that's 14% of all nations and a large large chunk of the first world given there's only 31 recognized first world nations in a brief google search.
This is how a competent leader handles a difficult situation. Brains, balls, and a spine of steel, aina?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625093/amp/DeSantis-launches-Israel-flights-bring-stranded-Jewish-Floridians-slams-Biden-administration-slow-response.html
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
This is how a competent leader handles a difficult situation. Brains, balls, and a spine of steel, aina?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625093/amp/DeSantis-launches-Israel-flights-bring-stranded-Jewish-Floridians-slams-Biden-administration-slow-response.html
Republicans should nominate him for president. Pudding Fingers would probably get a lot more support than the guy that just called Hezbollah smart and Israel dumb
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
This is how a competent leader handles a difficult situation. Brains, balls, and a spine of steel, aina?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625093/amp/DeSantis-launches-Israel-flights-bring-stranded-Jewish-Floridians-slams-Biden-administration-slow-response.html
Holy hell
Quote from: JWags85 on October 13, 2023, 10:38:55 AM
Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do. Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.
They can cede that Hamas is evil and should be attacked/eliminated. But not as to inconvenience anyone in Gaza? 48 hours isn't enough time. So should they wait a week while Hamas moves all high value targets out and brings more reinforcements/weapons in?
Hamas is specifically telling people to ignore IDF evacuation orders, so since people are not evacuating, the IDF should just stand down?
It's a horrible and incredibly complex military situation. But the biggest issue, for me, is that neither the IDF or Hamas cares too much about Palestinian civilian repercussions in pursuit of their current mission. But the difference, for me, is that excessive civilian casualties actually benefit Hamas and can't be disregarded as it pertains to their strategy and mission. It's just awful all around
Well if you want my opinion, now is the time to figure out a proper peaceful resolution. Is that realistic? Probably not. I have no doubt that Israel will try to eliminate Hamas. And I have no doubt that they will fail to eliminate every extremist in Gaza. All of this is just kicking the can down the road. Destruction of Gaza and the wholesale annihilation of its people will only radicalize more Muslims.
I don't think the invasion will have the intended effect. Someone will say, "we had to do SOMETHING" in a few years when we look back on the larger mess that has been created.
Just think of the blood and treasure that was thrown away in Iraq and Afghanistan because the US was deep in its fear and feelings. Osama bin Laden is finally dead, but that took more than a decade. It's a enormous waste of time, resources, and life.
In short, I have no idea how to resolve the situation, but I don't think the invasion is a good idea. There will be a lot of dead Israelis and Hamas fighters and nothing will change.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 13, 2023, 11:38:54 AM
Republicans should nominate him for president. Pudding Fingers would probably get a lot more support than the guy that just called Hezbollah smart and Israel dumb
On this we agree, Petrocelli. DeSantis has been my choice all along, much to the disappointment of Nads, who despite knowing my sentiments, wants everyone here to believe I favor Trump, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
This is how a competent leader handles a difficult situation. Brains, balls, and a spine of steel, aina?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625093/amp/DeSantis-launches-Israel-flights-bring-stranded-Jewish-Floridians-slams-Biden-administration-slow-response.html
Credit where its due, from that article that looks to be a great thing and seems like the federal administration should have moved faster to get it done.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 12:07:46 PM
On this we agree, Petrocelli. DeSantis has been my choice all along, much to the disappointment of Nads, who despite knowing my sentiments, wants everyone here to believe I favor Trump, hey?
Such a shame you'll be voting for this anti-semite instead, aina?
https://x.com/noahcrothman/status/1712632972216578122?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
This is how a competent leader handles a difficult situation. Brains, balls, and a spine of steel, aina?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625093/amp/DeSantis-launches-Israel-flights-bring-stranded-Jewish-Floridians-slams-Biden-administration-slow-response.html
Cory Mills for president. He beat both DeSantis and Biden, who announced plans the same day.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 12:07:46 PM
On this we agree, Petrocelli. DeSantis has been my choice all along, much to the disappointment of Nads, who despite knowing my sentiments, wants everyone here to believe I favor Trump, hey?
DeSantis is a loser with zero charisma. Not surprising you love him.
Quote from: MU82 on October 13, 2023, 12:13:47 PM
Cory Mills for president. He beat both DeSantis and Biden, who announced plans the same day.
That was my takeaway from the article too, good on Cory Mills.
DeSantis wouldn't be caught dead talking to regular folks. Much less stuck with a plane full of them.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 11:57:26 AM
Well if you want my opinion, now is the time to figure out a proper peaceful resolution. Is that realistic? Probably not. I have no doubt that Israel will try to eliminate Hamas. And I have no doubt that they will fail to eliminate every extremist in Gaza. All of this is just kicking the can down the road. Destruction of Gaza and the wholesale annihilation of its people will only radicalize more Muslims.
I don't think the invasion will have the intended effect. Someone will say, "we had to do SOMETHING" in a few years when we look back on the larger mess that has been created.
Just think of the blood and treasure that was thrown away in Iraq and Afghanistan because the US was deep in its fear and feelings. Osama bin Laden is finally dead, but that took more than a decade. It's a enormous waste of time, resources, and life.
In short, I have no idea how to resolve the situation, but I don't think the invasion is a good idea. There will be a lot of dead Israelis and Hamas fighters and nothing will change.
A peaceful solution?? A terrorist group slaughters 1200+ Israelis,, 27 Americans, Europeans, has150 hostages, and your solution is "peace'? This is fking asinine. Do you understand that Hamas' sole purpose is to murder Jews and for every one of them to leave the State of Israel? It's literally in their charter.
I hate to break it to you but shi ite Muslims are all technically radicalized. Creating more scumbags by destroying Hamas is not Israrel or our concern right now, nor do I think it means more will become whackos. Frankly if the Jews in Israel raised their hands right now every single one of them would be murdered by Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other terrorist groups there. If the opposite occurred tbe IDF wouldn't kill the Gazans.
Israel is at war for there survival and we are also at war with Terrorist/Militant Islamists. We should already be attacking with preemptive strikes on Hezbollah. We should send a CLEAR message to the surrounding Arab states that this sht will not be tolerated by the United States or Western World. We should seize the oil refineries in Iran, obliterate their nuclear facilities, and without warning have a Denzel/Neeson /Bronson like attack on the Mullahs.
There are many, many, many other things we should do to stop future violence from these fanatical fkbags. Appeasement does not work Neville Hards. Period. I want to be clear: I'm a proponent of Unrelenting Power/Force and support 🇮🇱 1000%. There's no other way and if we kitten-foot around, this will just be an ephemeral solution. Now, I would go much further than this but this is absolutely what we should do for starters.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
A peaceful solution?? A terrorist group slaughters 1200+ Israelis,, 27 Americans, Europeans, has150 hostages, and your solution is "peace'? This is fking asinine. Do you understand that Hamas' sole purpose is to murder Jews and for every one of them to leave the State of Israel? It's literally in their charter.
I hate to break it to you but shi ite Muslims are all technically radicalized. Creating more scumbags by destroying Hamas is not Israrel or our concern right now, nor do I think it means more will become whackos. Frankly if the Jews in Israel raised their hands right now every single one of them would be murdered by Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other terrorist groups there. If the opposite occurred tbe IDF wouldn't kill the Gazans.
Israel is at war for there survival and we are also at war with Terrorist/Militant Islamists. We should already be attacking with preemptive strikes on Hezbollah. We should send a CLEAR message to the surrounding Arab states that this sht will not be tolerated by the United States or Western World. We should seize the oil refineries in Iran, obliterate their nuclear facilities, and without warning have a Denzel/Neeson /Bronson like attack on the Mullahs.
There are many, many, many other things we should do to stop future violence from these fanatical fkbags. Appeasement does not work Neville Hards. Period. I want to be clear: I'm a proponent of Unrelenting Power/Force and support 🇮🇱 1000%. There's no other way and if we kitten-foot around, this will just be an ephemeral solution. Now, I would go much further than this but this is absolutely what we should do for starters.
You can probably join a volunteer group and go help with the fight.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
A peaceful solution?? A terrorist group slaughters 1200+ Israelis,, 27 Americans, Europeans, has150 hostages, and your solution is "peace'? This is fking asinine. Do you understand that Hamas' sole purpose is to murder Jews and for every one of them to leave the State of Israel? It's literally in their charter.
I hate to break it to you but shi ite Muslims are all technically radicalized. Creating more scumbags by destroying Hamas is not Israrel or our concern right now, nor do I think it means more will become whackos. Frankly if the Jews in Israel raised their hands right now every single one of them would be murdered by Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other terrorist groups there. If the opposite occurred tbe IDF wouldn't kill the Gazans.
Israel is at war for there survival and we are also at war with Terrorist/Militant Islamists. We should already be attacking with preemptive strikes on Hezbollah. We should send a CLEAR message to the surrounding Arab states that this sht will not be tolerated by the United States or Western World. We should seize the oil refineries in Iran, obliterate their nuclear facilities, and without warning have a Denzel/Neeson /Bronson like attack on the Mullahs.
There are many, many, many other things we should do to stop future violence from these fanatical fkbags. Appeasement does not work Neville Hards. Period. I want to be clear: I'm a proponent of Unrelenting Power/Force and support 🇮🇱 1000%. There's no other way and if we kitten-foot around, this will just be an ephemeral solution. Now, I would go much further than this but this is absolutely what we should do for starters.
And Israel has responded by making large swaths of the Gaza strip uninhabitable. Well over 1700 dead on the Palestinian side, children included.
Where do you want this to end? You have an unrealistic dream of extreme bloodshed.
If you're so keen on it then volunteer. Go fight Hamas. You won't because that would be difficult. Instead you're calling for the wholesale destruction of the Middle East without considering any of the blow back or consequences. You're asking for the Bush doctrine again after it worked so well last time? As others have said in this thread, you're not a serious person. You're lost in your emotions.
You're acting like a lunatic and also have a poor understanding of history. I honestly can't tell if you're just memeing at this point or if you're serious. Which should disturb you.
How the BOTUS handles this Middle East crisis will be a defining event in his presidency. After totally bungling the Afghanistan withdrawal, he has an opportunity now, particularly as we get closer to the election, to redeem himself. Handle this with strength and balls, and he will undoubtedly be the front runner for another term. Fook this up and he might as well pack his bags, get a ticket on the dog bus, and secure his place in history along side Jimmy Carter, hey?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 13, 2023, 11:27:04 AM
Umm wait till you find out about the open borders between EU nations and the open border between Ireland and UK.
I mean sure if you ignore 26 other EU nations that can enter and live in Germany freely then I'm sure it's real difficult but that's 14% of all nations and a large large chunk of the first world given there's only 31 recognized first world nations in a brief google search.
I did figure someone would bring up the European union.... however that functions much more like the USA federal and state system.
But do tell me how easily a Mexican, american or Venezuelan receives a work visa, social services, and citizenship in Germany.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 12:35:50 PM
How the BOTUS handles this Middle East crisis will be a defining event in his presidency. After totally bungling the Afghanistan withdrawal, he has an opportunity now, particularly as we get closer to the election, to redeem himself. Handle this with strength and balls, and he will undoubtedly be the front runner for another term. Fook this up and he might as well pack his bags, get a ticket on the dog bus, and secure his place in history along side Jimmy Carter, hey?
Too bad he has to work with Netanyahu who is an abject failure
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 12:35:50 PM
How the BOTUS handles this Middle East crisis will be a defining event in his presidency. After totally bungling the Afghanistan withdrawal, he has an opportunity now, particularly as we get closer to the election, to redeem himself. Handle this with strength and balls, and he will undoubtedly be the front runner for another term. Fook this up and he might as well pack his bags, get a ticket on the dog bus, and secure his place in history along side Jimmy Carter, hey?
What do you suggest?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
A peaceful solution?? A terrorist group slaughters 1200+ Israelis,, 27 Americans, Europeans, has150 hostages, and your solution is "peace'? This is fking asinine. Do you understand that Hamas' sole purpose is to murder Jews and for every one of them to leave the State of Israel? It's literally in their charter.
I hate to break it to you but shi ite Muslims are all technically radicalized. Creating more scumbags by destroying Hamas is not Israrel or our concern right now, nor do I think it means more will become whackos. Frankly if the Jews in Israel raised their hands right now every single one of them would be murdered by Hamas, Hezbollah, and the other terrorist groups there. If the opposite occurred tbe IDF wouldn't kill the Gazans.
Israel is at war for there survival and we are also at war with Terrorist/Militant Islamists. We should already be attacking with preemptive strikes on Hezbollah. We should send a CLEAR message to the surrounding Arab states that this sht will not be tolerated by the United States or Western World. We should seize the oil refineries in Iran, obliterate their nuclear facilities, and without warning have a Denzel/Neeson /Bronson like attack on the Mullahs.
There are many, many, many other things we should do to stop future violence from these fanatical fkbags. Appeasement does not work Neville Hards. Period. I want to be clear: I'm a proponent of Unrelenting Power/Force and support 🇮🇱 1000%. There's no other way and if we kitten-foot around, this will just be an ephemeral solution. Now, I would go much further than this but this is absolutely what we should do for starters.
I assume that it was just an oversight on your part that you failed to mention that we should do the exact same thing to Russia--murder their leaders, destroy their infrastructure, seize their resources and so on--for their actions bombing, raping, and murdering innocent Ukrainians, as well as kidnapping thousands of Ukrainian children and taking them to Russia.
Right?
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 13, 2023, 11:11:30 AM
How much should Egypt be involved in this? Are they really not allowing refugees to cross the border? How about giving Gaza back to Egypt?
Egypt believes (and who can blame them for thinking it) that if they open their borders and let the Palestinian refugees in, the land that is evacuated will never be returned. Effectively forcing the Palestinian state out of existence from that perspective is genocidal. It would all but eliminate it from existence, and Egypt does not want that.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 13, 2023, 12:50:48 PM
Egypt believes (and who can blame them for thinking it) that if they open their borders and let the Palestinian refugees in, the land that is evacuated will never be returned. Effectively forcing the Palestinian state out of existence from that perspective is genocidal. It would all but eliminate it from existence, and Egypt does not want that.
Yep, this is correct.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 13, 2023, 12:41:07 PM
I assume that it was just an oversight on your part that you failed to mention that we should do the exact same thing to Russia--murder their leaders, destroy their infrastructure, seize their resources and so on--for their actions bombing, raping, and murdering innocent Ukrainians, as well as kidnapping thousands of Ukrainian children and taking them to Russia.
Right?
I have said that at the beginning of the war. Go look. I stated we should take Putin out.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:54:33 PM
I have said that at the beginning of the war. Go look. I stated we should take Putin out.
Between that and your Middle East hawkishness, are you just craving the apocalypse or something?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:54:33 PM
I have said that at the beginning of the war. Go look. I stated we should take Putin out.
And if we are in the area, might as well sweep up North Korea and China as well, don't you think?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:54:33 PM
I have said that at the beginning of the war. Go look. I stated we should take Putin out.
Which is as nonsensical as taking Iran's oil fields.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 12:39:59 PM
What do you suggest?
Give Israel everything they ask for, get out of their way, and let Israel bomb the chit out of Gaza, the Hamas, and the rest of the remaining nomad terrorists, hey?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 13, 2023, 01:03:52 PM
And if we are in the area, might as well sweep up North Korea and China as well, don't you think?
That's what I do when I play RISK
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 13, 2023, 01:04:34 PM
Which is as nonsensical as taking Iran's oil fields.
We're taking Iran's oil fields?
When did this announcement happen and why wasn't I told about it?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 01:16:54 PM
Give Israel everything they ask for, get out of their way, and let Israel bomb the chit out of Gaza, the Hamas, and the rest of the remaining nomad terrorists, hey?
Your Catholic education really took hold I see.
As it has for others on this board. At least I know right from wrong, aina?
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 12:37:39 PM
I did figure someone would bring up the European union.... however that functions much more like the USA federal and state system.
So then if you consider the EU as 1 and have narrowed it down to all first world nations you're complaining that Australia, S Korea, Japan, NZ, Canada, Singapore, Israel, USA, UK, S Africa, make it difficult to move to.
So 10 countries/inter country alliance, it's difficult, but off the top of my head Irish citizens can at will move to the UK, Jewish people can easily get Israeli citizenship through military service, Australia and New Zealand have a deal like Ireland and UK do.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 12:37:39 PM
But do tell me how easily a Mexican, american or Venezuelan receives a work visa, social services, and citizenship in Germany.
You were complaining about first world countries so I kept it to those?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 01:16:54 PM
Give Israel everything they ask for, get out of their way, and let Israel bomb the chit out of Gaza, the Hamas, and the rest of the remaining nomad terrorists, hey?
Worked when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, why not try for a third time!
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 13, 2023, 01:18:31 PM
That's what I do when I play RISK
Seven armies per turn are enticing, but Asia is impossible to hold unless you've already effectively won the game elsewhere.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 09:16:49 AM
Uk, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland etc...
Being able to emigrate to America is much easier then any of these places.
Ah I didnt know that's what you meant by open borders. That is not what is being discussed here
Quote from: SoCalEagle on October 13, 2023, 01:19:00 PM
We're taking Iran's oil fields?
When did this announcement happen and why wasn't I told about it?
It's part of Muggsy's secret 5 Point Plan for world piece
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 01:21:02 PM
As it has for others on this board. At least I know right from wrong, aina?
You (A Catholic) cheering for death.
Me (An Agnostic) rooting for peace.
I think I see the problem here.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 01:21:02 PM
As it has for others on this board. At least I know right from wrong, aina?
I'm sure you think you do.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 13, 2023, 01:35:05 PM
I'm sure you think you do.
Like calling democrats the greatest threat to America
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 13, 2023, 01:32:32 PM
It's part of Muggsy's secret 5 Point Plan for world piece
What's World Piece? Do you mean we should take a "piece" of land, such as the entire Middle East and control all of the oil? I hadn't thought of pure usurpation but maybe I should amend a portion of my plan. Ty.
Democratic Mayor Eric Adams shows what leadership is, aina?
https://worldisraelnews.com/watch-we-are-not-alright-shouts-nyc-mayor-adams/amp/
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 01:50:22 PM
What's World Piece? Do you mean we should take a "piece" of land, such as the entire Middle East and control all of the oil? I hadn't thought of pure usurpation but maybe I should amend a portion of my plan. Ty.
That's the American way. Democracy by way of gun
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 01:50:22 PM
What's World Piece? Do you mean we should take a "piece" of land, such as the entire Middle East and control all of the oil? I hadn't thought of pure usurpation but maybe I should amend a portion of my plan. Ty.
It's what I assumed your plan was meant to achieve.
To be fair, the only part of your secret 5 Point Plan that you've shared is that the U.S. should unilaterally slaughter millions of people; maybe there are some really good parts in the other 4 points. Really killer ideas, if you will.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 01:16:54 PM
Give Israel everything they ask for, get out of their way, and let Israel bomb the chit out of Gaza, the Hamas, and the rest of the remaining nomad terrorists, hey?
Kill as many babies as it takes to bring peace.
Ahhh, I see your logic. You're not as crazy as we all think.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 02:02:10 PM
Democratic Mayor Eric Adams shows what leadership is, aina?
https://worldisraelnews.com/watch-we-are-not-alright-shouts-nyc-mayor-adams/amp/
A very brave man. I imagine he will be enlisting too as soon as he finishes pandering to an enormous voting bloc.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 13, 2023, 01:21:02 PM
As it has for others on this board. At least I know right from wrong, aina?
Arab=wrong right?
Am I reading your bloodlust correctly?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 01:34:17 PM
You (A Catholic) cheering for death.
Me (An Agnostic) rooting for peace.
I think I see the problem here.
Funny how it works out that way sometimes. I've learned to trust individuals based on their actions, not because they belong to one religious group or another (Catholic or otherwise).
Quote from: SoCalEagle on October 13, 2023, 02:33:47 PM
Funny how it works out that way sometimes. I've learned to trust individuals based on their actions, not because they belong to one religious group or another (Catholic or otherwise).
A lot of pro lifers here cheering on the slaughter of a population 50% below the age of 14. Is it actually only certain lives or do they deserve it because some people in the same region as them committed terrible acts? (Likely both)
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 13, 2023, 03:00:49 PM
A lot of pro lifers here cheering on the slaughter of a population 50% below the age of 14. Is it actually only certain lives or do they deserve it because some people in the same region as them committed terrible acts? (Likely both)
a lot? 2 maybe.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 13, 2023, 03:14:29 PM
a lot? 2 maybe.
3's a crowd by my count. 4 arguable gets you half as many as the supposed raging antisemites in here!
The level of antisemitism we are seeing, despite my take days ago that this was happening all over college campuses and everywhere in the world, is truly sickening. Listen to the chants. And it's going to get far worse when Israel does what it has to do to defend herself. A lot of you need to wake the F up and get your heads out of your asses. Because if you think this kind terror cannot happen here you're sorely mistaken. CLOSE THE BORDER IMMEDIATELY!
I stand by 🇮🇱, my Jewish friends, and those of you that are not are delusional and living in la-la-land. Collateral damage, which will happen in Gaza, isn't remotely the same thing as that disgusting massacre last Saturday.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 03:42:02 PM
The level of antisemitism we are seeing, despite my take days ago that this was happening all over college campuses and everywhere in the world, is truly sickening. Listen to the chants. And it's going to get far worse when Israel does what it has to do to defend herself. A lot of you need to wake the F up and get your heads out of your asses. Because if you think this kind terror cannot happen here you're sorely mistaken. CLOSE THE BORDER IMMEDIATELY!
I stand by 🇮🇱, my Jewish friends, and those of you that are not are delusional and living in la-la-land. Collateral damage, which will happen in Gaza, isn't remotely the same thing as that disgusting massacre last Saturday.
I'm going to start calling you Margorie - as in Margorie Taylor Green.
Just screaming ignorantly.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 03:42:02 PM
The level of antisemitism we are seeing, despite my take days ago that this was happening all over college campuses and everywhere in the world, is truly sickening.
I asked you before to provide examples of the protests at US universities that were siding with Hamas. You never answered. I have been unable to find them. Can you provide some examples?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 03:42:02 PM
The level of antisemitism we are seeing, despite my take days ago that this was happening all over college campuses and everywhere in the world, is truly sickening. Listen to the chants. And it's going to get far worse when Israel does what it has to do to defend herself. A lot of you need to wake the F up and get your heads out of your asses. Because if you think this kind terror cannot happen here you're sorely mistaken. CLOSE THE BORDER IMMEDIATELY!
I stand by 🇮🇱, my Jewish friends, and those of you that are not are delusional and living in la-la-land. Collateral damage, which will happen in Gaza, isn't remotely the same thing as that disgusting massacre last Saturday.
The collateral damage (aka state sanctioned murder, aka war crimes) have killed more than the original attacks. And Israel is just getting started.
Turn off your TV. It's going to make you crazier... and you're already unhinged.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 13, 2023, 01:24:08 PM
You were complaining about first world countries so I kept it to those?
I think you may have misunderstood.
Our resident Trumper complained that America's borders were to open. One of our resident libbys said that the borders were very much not open.
I then stated that compared to other first world countries (I think this is where you got confused) America is actually very open for immigrants.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 13, 2023, 03:50:07 PM
I asked you before to provide examples of the protests at US universities that were siding with Hamas. You never answered. I have been unable to find them. Can you provide some examples?
I did see that our friends to the west had some students protesting and saying things like liberate the land "by any means necessary" and "glory to the martyrs" and I also read "glory to the murders." Pretty sickening even if they didn't outright say "we love Hamas." I wasn't there, so, yes, I got this info online and it could be untrue or partially true.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 13, 2023, 03:50:07 PM
I asked you before to provide examples of the protests at US universities that were siding with Hamas. You never answered. I have been unable to find them. Can you provide some examples?
From Reuters:
Tensions sparked anew at campuses on Thursday as the national group Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) declared a "day of resistance," with demonstrations by its 200 chapters at colleges across North America.
The national group, which advocates for an independent Palestine and says on its website that it promotes "an agenda grounded in freedom, solidarity, equality, safety and historical justice," called the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance."
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 13, 2023, 04:04:35 PM
From Reuters:
Tensions sparked anew at campuses on Thursday as the national group Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) declared a "day of resistance," with demonstrations by its 200 chapters at colleges across North America.
The national group, which advocates for an independent Palestine and says on its website that it promotes "an agenda grounded in freedom, solidarity, equality, safety and historical justice," called the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance."
That's gross.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 13, 2023, 04:04:35 PM
From Reuters:
Tensions sparked anew at campuses on Thursday as the national group Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) declared a "day of resistance," with demonstrations by its 200 chapters at colleges across North America.
The national group, which advocates for an independent Palestine and says on its website that it promotes "an agenda grounded in freedom, solidarity, equality, safety and historical justice," called the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance."
SJP is using fliers showing a paraglider. Which is f-ing gross. I know of them using it at UNC and U of Washington.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 13, 2023, 03:58:53 PM
I think you may have misunderstood.
Our resident Trumper complained that America's borders were to open. One of our resident libbys said that the borders were very much not open.
I then stated that compared to other first world countries (I think this is where you got confused) America is actually very open for immigrants.
But you only mean open to third world countries yes? I got confused when you said how hard it was to move to Germany etc.
So, question, and I'm sure I will be eviscerated, but that's part of growing. I just heard Herzog say something like the Palestinians can leave, they can step up and defeat Hamas if they want to. Obviously Hamas is a terrorist organization. Obviously all Palestinians are not Hamas.
Why wouldn't Israel arm the Palestinians to overthrow Hamas, or at the very least allow for movement of people and supplies to do so? I assume I will get the you're an idiot, you're naive, wake the F up, you're an antisemite, and I do realize that the current Israeli government maybe isn't interested in a Palestine free state and probably assumes (and I can see why) that it would essentially be arming the enemy. If Israel wants to wipe Hamas off the map, why not enlist the help of Palestinians who feel the same?
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 13, 2023, 04:24:59 PM
So, question, and I'm sure I will be eviscerated, but that's part of growing. I just heard Herzog say something like the Palestinians can leave, they can step up and defeat Hamas if they want to. Obviously Hamas is a terrorist organization. Obviously all Palestinians are not Hamas.
Why wouldn't Israel arm the Palestinians to overthrow Hamas, or at the very least allow for movement of people and supplies to do so? I assume I will get the you're an idiot, you're naive, wake the F up, you're an antisemite, and I do realize that the current Israeli government maybe isn't interested in a Palestine free state and probably assumes (and I can see why) that it would essentially be arming the enemy. If Israel wants to wipe Hamas off the map, why not enlist the help of Palestinians who feel the same?
I think you answered your question. I'm not sure the average Palestinian is equipped to handle that task as well. They're effed. Rock and hard place.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 13, 2023, 04:24:59 PM
So, question, and I'm sure I will be eviscerated, but that's part of growing. I just heard Herzog say something like the Palestinians can leave, they can step up and defeat Hamas if they want to. Obviously Hamas is a terrorist organization. Obviously all Palestinians are not Hamas.
Why wouldn't Israel arm the Palestinians to overthrow Hamas, or at the very least allow for movement of people and supplies to do so? I assume I will get the you're an idiot, you're naive, wake the F up, you're an antisemite, and I do realize that the current Israeli government maybe isn't interested in a Palestine free state and probably assumes (and I can see why) that it would essentially be arming the enemy. If Israel wants to wipe Hamas off the map, why not enlist the help of Palestinians who feel the same?
I don't know this, but I'm guessing Hamas doesn't wear typical military uniforms. Arming Palestinians who can't be verified as civilians and not Hamas might be difficult to know. And they're not trained. I dunno. Seems like a bad idea.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 04:34:43 PM
I don't know this, but I'm guessing Hamas doesn't wear typical military uniforms. Arming Palestinians who can't be verified as civilians and not Hamas might be difficult to know. And they're not trained. I dunno. Seems like a bad idea.
All likely true, you and Rico. I'm certainly not advocating for it nor stating an opinion, and it has been done for years all over the globe. I certainly don't want any more bloodshed, naive I know.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 13, 2023, 04:39:51 PM
All likely true, you and Rico. I'm certainly not advocating for it nor stating an opinion, and it has been done for years all over the globe. I certainly don't want any more bloodshed, naive I know.
21-
No one has had the answer to stop the bloodshed in the Middle East for a couple of millenniums. We certainly don't
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 13, 2023, 04:39:51 PM
All likely true, you and Rico. I'm certainly not advocating for it nor stating an opinion, and it has been done for years all over the globe. I certainly don't want any more bloodshed, naive I know.
I understand your intent Mr. North. There are no easy answers here.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 13, 2023, 04:04:35 PM
From Reuters:
Tensions sparked anew at campuses on Thursday as the national group Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) declared a "day of resistance," with demonstrations by its 200 chapters at colleges across North America.
The national group, which advocates for an independent Palestine and says on its website that it promotes "an agenda grounded in freedom, solidarity, equality, safety and historical justice," called the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance."
Yep, that is Fing disgusting. I looked on Wednesday and hadn't seen anything. It is also free speech. Sickening, gross, anti-Semitic free speech.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 13, 2023, 04:42:29 PM
21-
No one has had the answer to stop the bloodshed in the Middle East for a couple of millenniums. We certainly don't
Likely the only statement in this thread we should all be able to agree on.
As I said...complete overreaction. And now the consequences are playing out. I'm sure Heisey is happy though.
https://forward.com/opinion/564873/harvard-jewish-palestinian-doxxing/
As a Jewish student at Harvard College, I'm witnessing first-hand the culture war that has broken out on campus after the Palestine Solidarity Committee and other student groups published a statement on the horrific Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel, in which they held "the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence."
I was shocked and appalled that the PSC statement failed to condemn Hamas' slaughter of 1,300 Israelis, most of whom were civilians. But even though I strongly disagree with the PSC statement, I still believe that all students have the rights to freedom of speech and — more importantly — to feel safe on campus. In recent days, powerful right-wing figures and organizations (led by hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman and the ironically-named Accuracy in Media newsgroup) have whipped up a hateful mob against hundreds of Harvard students in a series of vicious doxxing attacks.
On Oct. 10, Ackman (who has 850,000 followers on Twitter) tweeted that Harvard should "release a list of the members of each of the Harvard organizations that have issued the letter... so as to insure that none of us inadvertently hire any of their members." This was a clear dog whistle to Ackman's followers to dox and harass the students. On cue, immediately after Ackman's tweet multiple right-wing websites launched a doxxing campaign, posting the names and personal information of students allegedly associated with organizations that signed the PSC statement.
Some of the students listed online as members of these organizations have never even attended a club meeting, much less personally endorsed this statement. A friend of mine is in this exact predicament and is scared that they will have trouble getting hired after being doxxed, despite having nothing to do with the statement.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 03:42:02 PM
The level of antisemitism we are seeing, despite my take days ago that this was happening all over college campuses and everywhere in the world, is truly sickening. Listen to the chants. And it's going to get far worse when Israel does what it has to do to defend herself. A lot of you need to wake the F up and get your heads out of your asses. Because if you think this kind terror cannot happen here you're sorely mistaken. CLOSE THE BORDER IMMEDIATELY!
I stand by 🇮🇱, my Jewish friends, and those of you that are not are delusional and living in la-la-land. Collateral damage, which will happen in Gaza, isn't remotely the same thing as that disgusting massacre last Saturday.
At least no one can say that you aren't a
consistent unhinged bloodthirsty fool.
So you have that going for you.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 13, 2023, 04:42:29 PM
21-
No one has had the answer to stop the bloodshed in the Middle East for a couple of millenniums. We certainly don't
Muggsy does. The answer to stopping the bloodshed is unrelenting bloodshed. Easy peasy.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 13, 2023, 04:34:43 PM
I don't know this, but I'm guessing Hamas doesn't wear typical military uniforms. Arming Palestinians who can't be verified as civilians and not Hamas might be difficult to know. And they're not trained. I dunno. Seems like a bad idea.
Not to mention the gradient of sentiment amongst Palestinians. I mentioned before, but I thought Fauda did an awesome job of showing this.
You can have a family of Palestinians who want freedom (or whatever you deem the basic, non-Jew extermination goal is) who don't approve of Hamas and don't want to harm any Jews to do it. But their friends/neighbors/extended family may very well be more "whatever must be done to rise up", or even fully on board with what Hamas is doing.
So while they may want to rise up against Hamas and that Hamas is truly the ones killing the Palestinian people from within...doing so might very well mean taking up arms against their family or peers.
That's the really insidious part of this. Casting aside what happened in 2006, I t's unfair and completely wrong to paint all Palestinians as murderous thugs or Hamas supporters. But this isn't like a mafia crime family ruling a city with an iron fist. It's a terrorist organization who is masterful at manipulating a desperate people and creating division among friends and family and neighbors. It's so truly and utterly F-ed up.
You're spot on Wags
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 13, 2023, 04:55:46 PM
As I said...complete overreaction. And now the consequences are playing out. I'm sure Heisey is happy though.
https://forward.com/opinion/564873/harvard-jewish-palestinian-doxxing/
As a Jewish student at Harvard College, I'm witnessing first-hand the culture war that has broken out on campus after the Palestine Solidarity Committee and other student groups published a statement on the horrific Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel, in which they held "the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence."
I was shocked and appalled that the PSC statement failed to condemn Hamas' slaughter of 1,300 Israelis, most of whom were civilians. But even though I strongly disagree with the PSC statement, I still believe that all students have the rights to freedom of speech and — more importantly — to feel safe on campus. In recent days, powerful right-wing figures and organizations (led by hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman and the ironically-named Accuracy in Media newsgroup) have whipped up a hateful mob against hundreds of Harvard students in a series of vicious doxxing attacks.
On Oct. 10, Ackman (who has 850,000 followers on Twitter) tweeted that Harvard should "release a list of the members of each of the Harvard organizations that have issued the letter... so as to insure that none of us inadvertently hire any of their members." This was a clear dog whistle to Ackman's followers to dox and harass the students. On cue, immediately after Ackman's tweet multiple right-wing websites launched a doxxing campaign, posting the names and personal information of students allegedly associated with organizations that signed the PSC statement.
Some of the students listed online as members of these organizations have never even attended a club meeting, much less personally endorsed this statement. A friend of mine is in this exact predicament and is scared that they will have trouble getting hired after being doxxed, despite having nothing to do with the statement.
in other words, they hate when their own tactics are used against them.. no one saying they do not have the freedom to say or believe the things they do or say, but with free speech, there may or may not be consequences, good or bad.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 13, 2023, 07:54:03 PM
in other words, they hate when their own tactics are used against them.. no one saying they do not have the freedom to say or believe the things they do or say, but with free speech, there may or may not be consequences, good or bad.
Ah. Someone didn't read what was quoted. Good to know.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
A peaceful solution?? A terrorist group slaughters 1200+ Israelis,, 27 Americans, Europeans, has150 hostages, and your solution is "peace'? This is fking asinine. Do you understand that Hamas' sole purpose is to murder Jews and for every one of them to leave the State of Israel? It's literally in their charter.
Have you read their 2017 Charter? Hamas is evil, their terrorist actions repugnant, their actions define this, so you don't need to make stuff up about their charter.
Quote from: forgetful on October 13, 2023, 08:34:25 PM
Have you read their 2017 Charter? Hamas is evil, their terrorist actions repugnant, their actions define this, so you don't need to make stuff up about their charter.
I didn't want to say it too, but yeah they changed their charter a few years back.
NM.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 13, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
A peaceful solution?? A terrorist group slaughters 1200+ Israelis,, 27 Americans, Europeans, has150 hostages, and your solution is "peace'? This is fking asinine. Do you understand that Hamas' sole purpose is to murder Jews and for every one of them to leave the State of Israel? It's literally in their charter.
Yes. A peaceful solution. Because the reason we are here is for generations, other solutions have been tried repeatedly and it led to this. And if the solution is violence, you know where it will lead? Right back here.
A violent response by Israel will lead to a violent response in the future. Maybe from Hamas, maybe from whatever replaces it in a generation. Israel and Palestine have been rinsing and repeating this cycle since Palestinians were bombed out of their homes after World War II. Continuing that cycle would be, as you said, "fking asinine."
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 14, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
Yes. A peaceful solution. Because the reason we are here is for generations, other solutions have been tried repeatedly and it led to this. And if the solution is violence, you know where it will lead? Right back here.
A violent response by Israel will lead to a violent response in the future. Maybe from Hamas, maybe from whatever replaces it in a generation. Israel and Palestine have been rinsing and repeating this cycle since Palestinians were bombed out of their homes after World War II. Continuing that cycle would be, as you said, "fking asinine."
Brew,
This propoportially would have been like 36,000 Americans slaughtered in one day. If this happened in our country, from Hamas or Hezbollah, do you think our response would be we need to show restraint/peace? You don't think we would go into Gaza and get all of them? You don't think we would attack Iran directly? We're dealing with pure evil/barbarism/and terror. And people are celebrating in the streets over this here and all over the world. It's sickening and the idea of "peace" or a "ceasefire" after a slaughter of totally innocent citizens, when the survival of a country and its people are at stake, is a fking joke
It is an impossibility to "get all of them" and all of them that you don't get will have fresh reasons and resolve to continue on with everything that's gotten us to this point. That's what you don't seem to understand or are ignoring in your blood lust and anger.
Hamas is evil and this attack was evil. However, they cannot be militarily defeated. When the Israeli response begins they will blend back in to the remaining population, bide their time, and be back again (with a whole lot of new recruits) in the future.
That's the difficulty of this situation and why it cannot be resolved militarily.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on October 14, 2023, 08:21:31 AM
It is an impossibility to "get all of them" and all of them that you don't get will have fresh reasons and resolve to continue on with everything that's gotten us to this point. That's what you don't seem to understand or are ignoring in your blood lust and anger.
Hamas is evil and this attack was evil. However, they cannot be militarily defeated. When the Israeli response begins they will blend back in to the remaining population, bide their time, and be back again (with a whole lot of new recruits) in the future.
That's the difficulty of this situation and why it cannot be resolved militarily.
Every single deal that has been offered over the years has been rejected by Palestinian leadership and there have been no Jews or settlements in Gaza since 2005. Iran is Hamas. Iran is Hezbollah. Iran's leadership is evil. You want to save lives long term? Get rid of the Mullahs, destroy their nuclear facilities, and seize their oil assets. The idea that any deal can be made with Iran is absurd . The first thing they will do if they get a nuclear bomb is launch it at Israel. This is an attack on civilization and humanity, we can't wait to act.
IAF reporting they've killed the Hamas senior commander in a drone strike who planned the attack a week ago. Ali Qadhi.
"We just eliminated him. All Hamas terrorists will meet the same fate."
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:32:33 AM
Every single deal that has been offered over the years has been rejected by Palestinian leadership and there have been no Jews or settlements in Gaza since 2005. Iran is Hamas. Iran is Hezbollah. Iran's leadership is evil. You want to save lives long term? Get rid of the Mullahs, destroy their nuclear facilities, and seize their oil assets. The idea that any deal can be made with Iran is absurd . The first thing they will do if the get a nuclear bomb is launch it at Israel. This is an attack on civilization and humanity, we can't wait to act.
Which volunteer group are you joining?
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 14, 2023, 08:34:52 AM
IAF reporting they've killed the Hamas senior commander in a drone strike who planned the attack a week ago. Ali Qadhi.
"We just eliminated him. All Hamas terrorists will meet the same fate."
Excellent news
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:32:33 AM
Every single deal that has been offered over the years has been rejected by Palestinian leadership and there have been no Jews or settlements in Gaza since 2005. Iran is Hamas. Iran is Hezbollah. Iran's leadership is evil. You want to save lives long term? Get rid of the Mullahs, destroy their nuclear facilities, and seize their oil assets. The idea that any deal can be made with Iran is absurd . The first thing they will do if the get a nuclear bomb is launch it at Israel. This is an attack on civilization and humanity, we can't wait to act.
Saudi Arabia supports Hamas, they supported ISIS, should we eliminate them too, and seize their oil assets? What about Russia that supports Syria and Hamas?
Quote from: forgetful on October 14, 2023, 08:39:18 AM
Saudi Arabia supports Hamas, they supported ISIS, should we eliminate them too, and seize their oil assets? What about Russia that supports Syria and Hamas?
I'm John Bolton and I approve this message
Quote from: forgetful on October 14, 2023, 08:39:18 AM
Saudi Arabia supports Hamas, they supported ISIS, should we eliminate them too, and seize their oil assets? What about Russia that supports Syria and Hamas?
Kushner got his $2 billion from Saudi Arabia already, so go for it
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 14, 2023, 08:34:52 AM
IAF reporting they've killed the Hamas senior commander in a drone strike who planned the attack a week ago. Ali Qadhi.
"We just eliminated him. All Hamas terrorists will meet the same fate."
Hutch,
They understand the idea of elimination/darkness. We must support 🇮🇱 and they will do everything in their power to get rid of these scumbags. Hamas does not care about the Palestinians or collateral damage. It will be rough for Israel from a media perspective but they do not have a choice. And personally I think we should help by introducing Hezbollah to immediate darkness in the North among other things.
Quote from: forgetful on October 14, 2023, 08:39:18 AM
Saudi Arabia supports Hamas, they supported ISIS, should we eliminate them too, and seize their oil assets? What about Russia that supports Syria and Hamas?
I've said that we should usurp all of the oil reserves in the entire Middle East for years.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:03:40 AM
Brew,
This propoportially would have been like 36,000 Americans slaughtered in one day. If this happened in our country, from Hamas or Hezbollah, do you think our response would be we need to show restraint/peace? You don't think we would go into Gaza and get all of them? You don't think we would attack Iran directly? We're dealing with pure evil/barbarism/and terror. And people are celebrating in the streets over this here and all over the world. It's sickening and the idea of "peace" or a "ceasefire" after a slaughter of totally innocent citizens, when the survival of a country and its people are at stake, is a fking joke
Our response would be what it was after 9/11, which led to more lost American lives and escalation, including invading a country for "weapons of mass destruction" that we know were never there. It was a mistake then and would be a mistake now.
If your solution is genocide, you have the wrong solution. If you think doing the same thing that's been done for 70+ years and always yielded the same results will somehow change things now, then you're a fool. It will only make things even worse in the long run.
Your answer is to make things worse for all parties. How does that help anyone?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:58:50 AM
I've said that we should usurp all of the oil reserves in the entire Middle East for years.
You're absolutely bonkers
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:58:50 AM
I've said that we should usurp all of the oil reserves in the entire Middle East for years.
Well, that would certainly eliminate terrorism from the Middle East. History has taught us colonialism and occupation is the best way to make the world safer
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 14, 2023, 09:01:12 AM
You're absolutely bonkers
Don't forget he wants to take out Putin too.
Quentin Tarantino, who lives in Tel Aviv, visited an IDF base to lift their spirits. Good for him.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:57:48 AM
Hutch,
They understand the idea of elimination/darkness. We must support 🇮🇱 and they will do everything in their power to get rid of these scumbags. Hamas does not care about the Palestinians or collateral damage. It will be rough for Israel from a media perspective but they do not have a choice. And personally I think we should help by introducing Hezbollah to immediate darkness in the North among other things.
As proof to your point that Hamas could care less about Palestinians, they've told civilians to ignore IDF warnings to evacuate Gaza.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 14, 2023, 08:34:52 AM
IAF reporting they've killed the Hamas senior commander in a drone strike who planned the attack a week ago. Ali Qadhi.
"We just eliminated him. All Hamas terrorists will meet the same fate."
I believe the brother of the second in command of Hamas in Gaza, also a senior commander, was taken out on Thursday. Great tactical work if so.
Quote from: forgetful on October 14, 2023, 08:39:18 AM
Saudi Arabia supports Hamas, they supported ISIS, should we eliminate them too, and seize their oil assets? What about Russia that supports Syria and Hamas?
Do we have confirmed evidence of recent Saudi support for Hamas (last 2-3 years)? Genuine non-leading question.
Just given MBS' maneuvering in the region and the ongoing "rivalry" with Iran. We know about Qatar's Hamas ties, obviously. But I'm talking current internationally pragmatic Saudi, not historically
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:57:48 AM
Hutch,
They understand the idea of elimination/darkness. We must support 🇮🇱 and they will do everything in their power to get rid of these scumbags. Hamas does not care about the Palestinians or collateral damage. It will be rough for Israel from a media perspective but they do not have a choice. And personally I think we should help by introducing Hezbollah to immediate darkness in the North among other things.
So you are actually advocating for WW3 (or WW2 as trump would call it)?
Do you even understand why almost all here think you are crazy?
Quote from: Jockey on October 14, 2023, 10:08:22 AM
So you are actually advocating for WW3 (or WW2 as trump would call it)?
Do you even understand why almost all here think you are crazy?
What's a tens of million dead from your couch?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:32:33 AM
Every single deal that has been offered over the years has been rejected by Palestinian leadership and there have been no Jews or settlements in Gaza since 2005. Iran is Hamas. Iran is Hezbollah. Iran's leadership is evil. You want to save lives long term? Get rid of the Mullahs, destroy their nuclear facilities, and seize their oil assets. The idea that any deal can be made with Iran is absurd . The first thing they will do if they get a nuclear bomb is launch it at Israel. This is an attack on civilization and humanity, we can't wait to act.
You keep saying stuff like this but really have no idea what you are talking about. Always willing to have others die for your aims hey?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:03:40 AM
Brew,
This propoportially would have been like 36,000 Americans slaughtered in one day. If this happened in our country, from Hamas or Hezbollah, do you think our response would be we need to show restraint/peace? You don't think we would go into Gaza and get all of them? You don't think we would attack Iran directly? We're dealing with pure evil/barbarism/and terror. And people are celebrating in the streets over this here and all over the world. It's sickening and the idea of "peace" or a "ceasefire" after a slaughter of totally innocent citizens, when the survival of a country and its people are at stake, is a fking joke
It's amazing that what you're describing already sorta happened, and our response had no effect. Terrorist orgs still exist and the world isn't any safer. Al-Qaeda still exists. The Taliban still runs Afghanistan. The US is several trillion dollars poorer for our fury. IT DOESN'T WORK, MUGS.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 14, 2023, 09:36:21 AM
Do we have confirmed evidence of recent Saudi support for Hamas (last 2-3 years)? Genuine non-leading question.
Just given MBS' maneuvering in the region and the ongoing "rivalry" with Iran. We know about Qatar's Hamas ties, obviously. But I'm talking current internationally pragmatic Saudi, not historically
I do not believe there is direct evidence, but there is historic support. There's also the statements from Saudi Arabia blaming the attacks on Israel, which posters like Muggsy say is direct support.
Regarding the "rivalry" with Iran, note that Saudi Arabia is in the process of normalizing relations with Iran, they had recent discussions about Arab solidarity, specifically as it relates to Israel/Palestine.
People point to the possible normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, but I don't think they were ever going to happen, because the far-right in Israel was against it, for multiple reasons, including the fact that it would include Saudi Arabia getting nuclear reactors.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 14, 2023, 10:46:13 AM
It's amazing that what you're describing already sorta happened, and our response had no effect. Terrorist orgs still exist and the world isn't any safer. Al-Qaeda still exists. The Taliban still runs Afghanistan. The US is several trillion dollars poorer for our fury. IT DOESN'T WORK, MUGS.
We have not used tbe power I'm talking about and our Afghanistan conplete withdrawal wasn't smart and executed horribly as well. We should be in full attack mode to eradicate Islamic terrorists from the face of the earth.
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Etc
Etc
Etc
And if more scumbag terrorists arise and continue their genocidal and disgusting behavior? Batter up. If they want to continue to teach this bshit in their schools make it crystal clear the result will be painful, and an immediate introduction to darkness.
If we do what we are more than capable of doing it will deter future genocides. And yes, I would have taken out Putin immediately and send a more than strong message to China. You want to know why we have to be the world's police? And maintain some sort of balance of power? Because if there is a China/Russia/Iranian leadership axis the result will be horrific for humanity. They are 100/100 on the jgoff fking ayhole scale and subjugate their people. We aren't perfect by any means but are Mother Theresa's in comparison. Listen to the Israeli leadership right now, they are 1000% correct.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:32:33 AM
Every single deal that has been offered over the years has been rejected by Palestinian leadership and there have been no Jews or settlements in Gaza since 2005. Iran is Hamas. Iran is Hezbollah. Iran's leadership is evil. You want to save lives long term? Get rid of the Mullahs, destroy their nuclear facilities, and seize their oil assets. The idea that any deal can be made with Iran is absurd . The first thing they will do if they get a nuclear bomb is launch it at Israel. This is an attack on civilization and humanity, we can't wait to act.
Strange, I'm pretty sure that the US was the one that blew up the Iran nuclear deal.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:58:50 AM
I've said that we should usurp all of the oil reserves in the entire Middle East for years.
And you think the rest of the world would just allow that to happen? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Absolutely bonkers.
Muggsy, are you ok with the fact that Israel settlers (civilians) have opened fire on funerals (for Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli police), killing more Palestinian civilians (including children), while Israeli military just stood by and watched (no arrests, no nothing)?
Are you ok with the fact that Journalists have been fired on and killed? Including a group that fled a building they were told to evacuate, only for Israel to bomb a completely different building that the journalists and civilians fled to?
Are you ok with white phosphorous shells being fired at Children's hospitals?
Are you ok with the "proportional response" being the equivalent of killing 166,000 women and children in the US (1000 women and children have already been killed in the retaliatory strikes: 700 children)?
The Hamas terrorist strike was horrific. I can't imagine being one of those civilians at the music festival, or in nearby settlements. There is no justifying such horrific actions. Israel has a right to defend itself. But right now you are supporting all the above as perfectly justifiable.
Many of us here condemn both. Many of us also disagreed with the US when we attacked Iraq, because it is not a just response.
I have friends/colleagues stuck on both sides of borders over there. I worry about them all. All of them are innocent. I have colleagues in the IDF that have been called up, and want nothing to do with what is to come. I have friends in the US military that will be the first ones on the ground if all of this goes sideways. I worry about their lives, and the lives of their families.
What shocks me, and I think others here, is how you and others seem to be excited about retaliation, that puts so many peoples lives in jeopardy, and when the outcome will be decades of more violence and death.
All of what is going on right now is disgusting. I don't know a solution. But I do know as a Christian, that I should show compassion for all innocents, and pray for peace.
Quote from: forgetful on October 14, 2023, 10:47:16 AM
I do not believe there is direct evidence, but there is historic support. There's also the statements from Saudi Arabia blaming the attacks on Israel, which posters like Muggsy say is direct support.
Regarding the "rivalry" with Iran, note that Saudi Arabia is in the process of normalizing relations with Iran, they had recent discussions about Arab solidarity, specifically as it relates to Israel/Palestine.
People point to the possible normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, but I don't think they were ever going to happen, because the far-right in Israel was against it, for multiple reasons, including the fact that it would include Saudi Arabia getting nuclear reactors.
Iranians aren't Arabs. Sorry, just picking nits on an otherwise truthful post. ;D
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 11:12:08 AM
We have not used tbe power I'm talking about and our Afghanistan conplete withdrawal wasn't smart and executed horribly as well. We should be in full attack mode to eradicate Islamic terrorists from the face of the earth.
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Etc
Etc
Etc
And if more scumbag terrorists arise and continue their genocidal and disgusting behavior? Batter up. If they want to continue to teach this bcrap in their schools make it crystal clear the result will be painful, and an immediate introduction to darkness.
If we do what we are more than capable of doing it will deter future genocides. And yes, I would have taken out Putin immediately and send a more than strong message to China. You want to know why we have to be the world's police? And maintain some sort of balance of power? Because if there is a China/Russia/Iranian leadership axis the result will be horrific for humanity. They are 100/100 on the jgoff fking ayhole scale and subjugate their people. We aren't perfect by any means but are Mother Theresa's in comparison. Listen to the Israeli leadership right now, they are 1000% correct.
Anyone with a basic understanding of history would have known how our involvement in Afghanistan would end.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 13, 2023, 04:20:05 PM
But you only mean open to third world countries yes? I got confused when you said how hard it was to move to Germany etc.
Well, really.... anyone outside of the EU. It's pretty tough for an American to move there as well.
Sorry to dox you Muggsy
https://x.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1713168503107174866?s=46&t=1VPsVLoWWbtblV9sGVm3Jg
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 11:12:08 AM
We have not used tbe power I'm talking about and our Afghanistan conplete withdrawal wasn't smart and executed horribly as well. We should be in full attack mode to eradicate Islamic terrorists from the face of the earth.
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Attack
Etc
Etc
Etc
And if more scumbag terrorists arise and continue their genocidal and disgusting behavior? Batter up. If they want to continue to teach this bcrap in their schools make it crystal clear the result will be painful, and an immediate introduction to darkness.
If we do what we are more than capable of doing it will deter future genocides. And yes, I would have taken out Putin immediately and send a more than strong message to China. You want to know why we have to be the world's police? And maintain some sort of balance of power? Because if there is a China/Russia/Iranian leadership axis the result will be horrific for humanity. They are 100/100 on the jgoff fking ayhole scale and subjugate their people. We aren't perfect by any means but are Mother Theresa's in comparison. Listen to the Israeli leadership right now, they are 1000% correct.
Never thought I'd say this, but it seems Dodds was right.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 08:03:40 AM
Brew,
This propoportially would have been like 36,000 Americans slaughtered in one day. If this happened in our country, from Hamas or Hezbollah, do you think our response would be we need to show restraint/peace? You don't think we would go into Gaza and get all of them? You don't think we would attack Iran directly? We're dealing with pure evil/barbarism/and terror. And people are celebrating in the streets over this here and all over the world. It's sickening and the idea of "peace" or a "ceasefire" after a slaughter of totally innocent citizens, when the survival of a country and its people are at stake, is a fking joke
What if the militant blackjack dealers at Potawatomi decide to rise up against the state of Wisconsin, do we bomb the hell out of Milwaukee? Do we kill all the servers, craps and roulette table pit bosses, gamblers tourists, diners at Poto? The MU soccer players?
I'm being intentionally hyperbolic, and we have seen US reactions to attacks from both inside and outside our country. Results weren't/aren't pretty. And, of course, some of what you wrote, I couldn't agree more. I am of the opinion that protection is one thing, retaliation another.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 14, 2023, 01:20:42 PM
What if the militant blackjack dealers at Potawatomi decide to rise up against the state of Wisconsin, do we bomb the hell out of Milwaukee? Do we kill all the servers, craps and roulette table pit bosses, gamblers tourists, diners at Poto? The MU soccer players?
I'm being intentionally hyperbolic, and we have seen US reactions to attacks from both inside and outside our country. Results weren't/aren't pretty. And, of course, some of what you wrote, I couldn't agree more. I am of the opinion that protection is one thing, retaliation another.
You forgot to also target the Oneida Bingo and Casino in Green Bay for good measure.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 14, 2023, 01:25:06 PM
You forgot to also target the Oneida Bingo and Casino in Green Bay for good measure.
Precisely, well stated.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on October 14, 2023, 09:20:12 AM
As proof to your point that Hamas could care less about Palestinians, they've told civilians to ignore IDF warnings to evacuate Gaza.
Not defending Hamas, not defending their actions, but their reasoning is likely because they think if they leave they will never get this land back.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 14, 2023, 01:34:59 PM
Not defending Hamas, not defending their actions, but their reasoning is likely because they think if they leave they will never get this land back.
In a couple weeks, some people here will be talking about how Israel was goaded into committing human rights abuses
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 14, 2023, 12:10:30 PM
Well, really.... anyone outside of the EU. It's pretty tough for an American to move there as well.
It's pretty simple to get Irish citizenship if you're first or second generation removed. It's super easy to get Italian citizenship as it's just a drop of blood rule as long as nobody disavowed their Italian citizenship in the family tree.
Poland is even easier than Italy as it's just anyone who has a polish ancestor that emigrated after 1919, even if they disavowed it you can still qualify.
There's other routes as well but the point is that roughly a population of the 5 biggest GMAs in the USA is eligible for EU citizenship and that's a pretty massive quantity of people to easily move certainly a large enough population that you could argue it's not that difficult for Americans.
Quote from: forgetful on October 14, 2023, 11:19:02 AM
Muggsy, are you ok with the fact that Israel settlers (civilians) have opened fire on funerals (for Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli police), killing more Palestinian civilians (including children), while Israeli military just stood by and watched (no arrests, no nothing)?
Are you ok with the fact that Journalists have been fired on and killed? Including a group that fled a building they were told to evacuate, only for Israel to bomb a completely different building that the journalists and civilians fled to?
Are you ok with white phosphorous shells being fired at Children's hospitals?
Are you ok with the "proportional response" being the equivalent of killing 166,000 women and children in the US (1000 women and children have already been killed in the retaliatory strikes: 700 children)?
The Hamas terrorist strike was horrific. I can't imagine being one of those civilians at the music festival, or in nearby settlements. There is no justifying such horrific actions. Israel has a right to defend itself. But right now you are supporting all the above as perfectly justifiable.
Many of us here condemn both. Many of us also disagreed with the US when we attacked Iraq, because it is not a just response.
I have friends/colleagues stuck on both sides of borders over there. I worry about them all. All of them are innocent. I have colleagues in the IDF that have been called up, and want nothing to do with what is to come. I have friends in the US military that will be the first ones on the ground if all of this goes sideways. I worry about their lives, and the lives of their families.
What shocks me, and I think others here, is how you and others seem to be excited about retaliation, that puts so many peoples lives in jeopardy, and when the outcome will be decades of more violence and death.
All of what is going on right now is disgusting. I don't know a solution. But I do know as a Christian, that I should show compassion for all innocents, and pray for peace.
Well said.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 14, 2023, 01:42:32 PM
In a couple weeks, some people here will be talking about how Israel was goaded into committing human rights abuses
"Look what you made me do!". Classic abuser behavior
I just wanna know why the Ukraine thread is at like 6 pages after a year, but this is already at 30.
Does scoop just love talking about religion that much?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 14, 2023, 01:43:58 PM
It's pretty simple to get Irish citizenship if you're first or second generation removed. It's super easy to get Italian citizenship as it's just a drop of blood rule as long as nobody disavowed their Italian citizenship in the family tree.
Poland is even easier than Italy as it's just anyone who has a polish ancestor that emigrated after 1919, even if they disavowed it you can still qualify.
There's other routes as well but the point is that roughly a population of the 5 biggest GMAs in the USA is eligible for EU citizenship and that's a pretty massive quantity of people to easily move certainly a large enough population that you could argue it's not that difficult for Americans.
So if I'm Irish I may be able to move to Ireland, if I'm polish I may be able to move to Poland, if I'm Italian I *may* be able to move to Italy. But if you're Italian American and want to move to the uk, it's super hard. If I am Irish-American but want to move to Germany, I'm screwed.
I don't like the scoop argument of "moving goalposts" but I feel like that's essentially what you just did.
In GENERAL, it is much harder for someone to move to Canada, Germany, UK, Italy, etc then it is to immigrate to the US
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 14, 2023, 03:49:59 PM
I just wanna know why the Ukraine thread is at like 6 pages after a year, but this is already at 30.
Does scoop just love talking about religion that much?
There was a 34 page thread about the war in Ukraine that got locked. The 6 page thread was started due to the coup-like event began in June.
Quote from: forgetful on October 14, 2023, 11:19:02 AM
But I do know as a Christian, that I should show compassion for all innocents, and pray for peace.
Something something.... crusades.... priests and little boys.... persecution of gays..... something something brown people ...
Yep! Christianity is a great thing!
Quote from: tower912 on October 14, 2023, 04:02:25 PM
There was a 34 page thread about the war in Ukraine that got locked. The 6 page thread was started due to the coup-like event began in June.
Hmmm, my bad. I don't remember the ukraine war one ever gaining much traction.
I went looking for it. Ultimately shut down because Lenny, Ziggy, and Withoutbias got in a fight about Sultan.
https://www.thefp.com/p/daniel-pearl-cousin-hamas-idealism
Interesting and heartbreaking take. Difficult for Israelis to remained nuanced in the face of evil.
Quote from: tower912 on October 14, 2023, 04:03:21 PM
I went looking for it. Ultimately shut down because Lenny, Ziggy, and Withoutbias got in a fight about Sultan.
<sky point>
Quote from: #UnleashSean on October 14, 2023, 04:02:25 PM
Something something.... crusades.... priests and little boys.... persecution of gays..... something something brown people ...
Yep! Christianity is a great thing!
Everything is bad if you judge it by the worst people. Christianity just had more worst people.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2023, 04:26:59 PM
https://www.thefp.com/p/daniel-pearl-cousin-hamas-idealism
Interesting and heartbreaking take. Difficult for Israelis to remained nuanced in the face of evil.
Ty Lenny. Outstanding and spot-on analysis. And we should all remember Daniel Pearl. Exactly, there is no nuance. Bari Weiss also wrote an excellent article for the Free Press.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2023, 04:26:59 PM
https://www.thefp.com/p/daniel-pearl-cousin-hamas-idealism
Interesting and heartbreaking take. Difficult for Israelis to remained nuanced in the face of evil.
I guess? People can support LGBTQ rights AND give Israel the benefit of the doubt right?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 07:51:48 PM
Bari Weiss also wrote an excellent article for the Free Press.
Typical Muggsy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 14, 2023, 12:50:21 PM
Never thought I'd say this, but it seems Dodds was right.
WOAH.
I watch this channel occasionally and today they put this video out on the relationship between Hamas and Iran. Their ultimate conclusion was that Iran (and their proxy Hezbollah) are likely not going to get heavily involved in this conflict. Their reasons is that Hamas is not a proxy similar to Hezbollah - Hamas is Sunni and Hezbollah is Shia. Their relationship has mostly been one of convenience against Israel.
And also Iranian involvement would definitely mean a larger response from the West, but also Sunni states like Saudi Arabia as well. And Iran has too much to lose here - they have been the strategic winners of both the Iraq War as well as the Syrian Civil War.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po32UlRaV0c
This wasn't mentioned in this video, but I also doubt that Iran actually wants to go through the effort of getting rid of Israel anyway. Israel provides the mullahs with a nice common enemy whenever things start to go south internally within Iran.
Quote from: Jockey on October 14, 2023, 07:16:43 PM
Everything is bad if you judge it by the worst people. Christianity just had more worst people.
You had me in the first half!
https://www.facebook.com/100010768961017/videos/1381981342527675/
Worth a watch. Impassioned speech from a young Israeli girl who was attacked in Kibbutz Be'eri.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 14, 2023, 07:51:48 PM
Ty Lenny. Outstanding and spot-on analysis. And we should all remember Daniel Pearl. Exactly, there is no nuance. Bari Weiss also wrote an excellent article for the Free Press.
Bari Weiss is one of my favorite professional victims.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 12, 2023, 10:06:03 AM
That's pretty much how I feel. I'm far from a Biden fan and have been critical of his administration in a variety of ways, but I've been very impressed by the WH's statements and Biden personally this week. Well done by them
What an asinine line of questioning looking for a gotcha moment
Why not? He's been one of the most effective executive and legislative President's of your life time.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 15, 2023, 11:10:14 AM
Bari Weiss is one of my favorite professional victims.
We all know where you stand Pakumi.
Just like we all know where you stand, muggsy.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 15, 2023, 11:24:28 AM
We all know where you stand Pakumi.
Where do I stand?
Biden's statements have been good but it's about action. Iran is obviously the ultimate problem/head of the snake and the WH still refuses to implicate them directly. Now maybe we're doing this to conduct a surprise and immediate attack on the Quds foces and Mullahs but I doubt it.
By now I would have seized every oil refinery in Iran. Within a week there would be no Mullahs, Quds forces, or any remote chance they will ever have nuclear bomb capabilities. This is at minimum what we should be doing. We're dealing with a regime that subjugates their people, are loathed by their people, and are ultimately responsible for what happened.
My hope is for the Biden administration to pretend they're interested in placating them, or some asinine deal,, and a day later unleash a relentless and merciless fury which will resonate across the entire world. I understand I'm a bit more hawkish than some but the fact remains that appeasement will not work. If we wait to react to Hezbollah/Iran the consequences will be far worse imo. Again, things would be on a much safer path for Israel, the USA, and the world if I was in charge. A tremendous amount would have been accomplished already.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 15, 2023, 11:52:11 AM
Biden's statements have been good but it's about action. Iran is obviously the ultimate problem/head of the snake and the WH still refuses to implicate them directly. Now maybe we're doing this to conduct a surprise and immediate attack on the Quds foces and Mullahs but I doubt it.
By now I would have seized every oil refinery in Iran. Within a week there would be no Mullahs, Quds forces, or any remote chance they will ever have nuclear bomb capabilities. This is at minimum what we should be doing. We're dealing with a regime that subjugates their people, are loathed by their people, and are ultimately responsible for what happened.
My hope is for the Biden administration to pretend they're interested in placating them, or some asinine deal,, and a day later unleash a relentless and merciless fury which will resonate across the entire world. I understand I'm a bit more hawkish than some but the fact remains that appeasement will not work. If we wait to react to Hezbollah/Iran the consequences will be far worse imo. Again, things would be on a much safer path for Israel, the USA, and the world if I was in charge. A tremendous amount would have been accomplished already.
You aren't "a bit more hawkish." You are willing to kill millions based on absolutely awful assumptions.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 15, 2023, 11:52:11 AM
Biden's statements have been good but it's about action. Iran is obviously the ultimate problem/head of the snake and the WH still refuses to implicate them directly. Now maybe we're doing this to conduct a surprise and immediate attack on the Quds foces and Mullahs but I doubt it.
By now I would have seized every oil refinery in Iran. Within a week there would be no Mullahs, Quds forces, or any remote chance they will ever have nuclear bomb capabilities. This is at minimum what we should be doing. We're dealing with a regime that subjugates their people, are loathed by their people, and are ultimately responsible for what happened.
My hope is for the Biden administration to pretend they're interested in placating them, or some asinine deal,, and a day later unleash a relentless and merciless fury which will resonate across the entire world. I understand I'm a bit more hawkish than some but the fact remains that appeasement will not work. If we wait to react to Hezbollah/Iran the consequences will be far worse imo. Again, things would be on a much safer path for Israel, the USA, and the world if I was in charge. A tremendous amount would have been accomplished already.
No, if you were in charge, thousands of Americans would die and maybe millions depending how long we were fighting wars across the globe
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 15, 2023, 11:52:11 AM
Biden's statements have been good but it's about action. Iran is obviously the ultimate problem/head of the snake and the WH still refuses to implicate them directly. Now maybe we're doing this to conduct a surprise and immediate attack on the Quds foces and Mullahs but I doubt it.
By now I would have seized every oil refinery in Iran. Within a week there would be no Mullahs, Quds forces, or any remote chance they will ever have nuclear bomb capabilities. This is at minimum what we should be doing. We're dealing with a regime that subjugates their people, are loathed by their people, and are ultimately responsible for what happened.
My hope is for the Biden administration to pretend they're interested in placating them, or some asinine deal,, and a day later unleash a relentless and merciless fury which will resonate across the entire world. I understand I'm a bit lot more hawkish bloodthirsty, unrealistic and batsh*t goofy than some but the fact remains that appeasement will not work. If we wait to react to Hezbollah/Iran the consequences will be far worse imo. Again, things would be on a much safer path for Israel, the USA, and the world if I was in charge. A tremendous amount would have been accomplished already.
FTFY
Also, where do I stand?
Mugs, you continue to take this so far beyond the confines of the current conflict to enact a vendetta on Iran, its beyond out of bounds.
This is like in reaction to the The Troubles, you'd suggest the US and UK go all out in attacking Italy cause the IRA is Catholic and support for them from the Vatican must be stopped.
And again, if the US wanted to seize every oil refinery in Kazakhstan or even the UAE, it would be nearly (most likely completely) impossible to do it in a week. But you're suggesting doing that in a country 8X the size of Texas with a strong and competent military. It doesn't make you sound just hawkish or warmongering, it makes you sound completely and utterly ignorant of anything involving military action, global geography, or strategy.
Didn't realize Lindsay Graham posted here
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 15, 2023, 11:52:11 AM
Biden's statements have been good but it's about action. Iran is obviously the ultimate problem/head of the snake and the WH still refuses to implicate them directly. Now maybe we're doing this to conduct a surprise and immediate attack on the Quds foces and Mullahs but I doubt it.
By now I would have seized every oil refinery in Iran. Within a week there would be no Mullahs, Quds forces, or any remote chance they will ever have nuclear bomb capabilities. This is at minimum what we should be doing. We're dealing with a regime that subjugates their people, are loathed by their people, and are ultimately responsible for what happened.
My hope is for the Biden administration to pretend they're interested in placating them, or some asinine deal,, and a day later unleash a relentless and merciless fury which will resonate across the entire world. I understand I'm a bit more hawkish than some but the fact remains that appeasement will not work. If we wait to react to Hezbollah/Iran the consequences will be far worse imo. Again, things would be on a much safer path for Israel, the USA, and the world if I was in charge. A tremendous amount would have been accomplished already.
Life isn't a video game.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 15, 2023, 11:10:14 AM
Bari Weiss is one of my favorite professional victims.
I'm not sure using someone who refers to herself as "A proudly unhinged Zionist" is really someone I want to be reading in this situation that calls for even a shred of nuance. She probably should stick to grifting donors about "antiwokeism".
Quote from: Pakuni on October 15, 2023, 11:10:14 AM
Bari Weiss is one of my favorite professional victims.
Yup.
Watch her on Bill Maher sometime and you can see her and her whiny twin at the same time.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 15, 2023, 11:52:11 AM
Biden's statements have been good but it's about action. Iran is obviously the ultimate problem/head of the snake and the WH still refuses to implicate them directly. Now maybe we're doing this to conduct a surprise and immediate attack on the Quds foces and Mullahs but I doubt it.
By now I would have seized every oil refinery in Iran. Within a week there would be no Mullahs, Quds forces, or any remote chance they will ever have nuclear bomb capabilities. This is at minimum what we should be doing. We're dealing with a regime that subjugates their people, are loathed by their people, and are ultimately responsible for what happened.
My hope is for the Biden administration to pretend they're interested in placating them, or some asinine deal,, and a day later unleash a relentless and merciless fury which will resonate across the entire world. I understand I'm a bit more hawkish than some but the fact remains that appeasement will not work. If we wait to react to Hezbollah/Iran the consequences will be far worse imo. Again, things would be on a much safer path for Israel, the USA, and the world if I was in charge. A tremendous amount would have been accomplished already.
The only thing asinine here is your continued tone. What you are proposing would make the world a far more dangerous place and make all of these situations you are trying to mitigate unquestionably worse.
Look back to how the Allies handled the end and aftermath of World War II. Rather than punishing the Axis powers, the propped up Japan and Germany, learning from the mistakes of the post-WWI fallout that led Germany right back to war less than 2 decades later. Those countries became industrial, economic, and democratic powers. They became some of our most important allies in the generations to come. Helping our enemies created allies.
But what else did we do? We dropped bombs to send a warning to the Soviet Union. That led to them pursuing the atomic bomb themselves, the Cold War, and our biggest geopolitical enemy for generations. We also bombed Palestinians out of their homes and helped create what turned into an apartheid state in Israel. Rather than the Allies being willing to cede territory of their own for a new Jewish home state, they deliberately created the situation that led to where we are now.
None of this excuses Hamas. What they did was terrible, awful, evil. But if the response is to raze Gaza, to punish 2 million Palestinians for the actions of a minority, we WILL create a bigger problem down the line. Because that is flawed thinking born out by generations of matching violence with violence. Give them the opportunity to thrive, like we did with Germany and Japan, and they will thrive. Give them hate and they will revisit that hate on you.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 15, 2023, 06:55:22 AM
This wasn't mentioned in this video, but I also doubt that Iran actually wants to go through the effort of getting rid of Israel anyway. Israel provides the mullahs with a nice common enemy whenever things start to go south internally within Iran.
Bingo!!!
If Iran turns the heat down on Israel, the light begins to shine on the troubles inside Iran. Stop hating Israel and guess what, much of the hate in the theocracy in Iran exists goes away.
Take away the hate and one takes away the Iranian theocracy's reason to exist.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 15, 2023, 04:59:22 PMWe also bombed Palestinians out of their homes and helped create what turned into an apartheid state in Israel. Rather than the Allies being willing to cede territory of their own for a new Jewish home state, they deliberately created the situation that led to where we are now.
Allies did cede their territory. The British and the French controlled the area after routing the Ottomans out.
A Jewish state in the Middle East makes sense in a historical and cultural framework. A Jewish state derived from territory the "Allies ceded", presumably in Western Europe makes no sense and rest on this silly notion of Israel as a bunch of European settlers, when not even 40% of the Jewish population is descended from Western European Jews. And Jews only make up 74% of Israel. So less than a third of Israel are "Europeans"
The idea of a "Palestine", and a unified identity/Palestinian state, only came about in response to Jewish migration and Israel. It's not like there was some long fight for a Palestinian state in the 1800s that got thrown aside for Israel. The main group pushing the Ottomans out to change the whole region was Saudis from the region along the Red Sea.
That's not to lessen any sort of Palestinian identity and desire for a state going on right now. Nor to blanket justify Israeli actions over the years. But there is a lot of revisionist history suggesting that the Palestinian people/cause/general goal 75/100/125 years ago was anything like it is today.
Palestinians had been the majority population in that territory for 800+ years. By ceding territory, I mean territory that wasn't densely populated like that land was. And "historical and cultural framework" loses its luster centuries later. I mean, anyone making that argument in this country should pack up and head back to wherever their ancestors came from unless their Native Americans because the Native Americans have a lot more modern claim to this entire country than 1940s Jews had to Israel.
I agree that there wasn't land in Europe for them, but there was land in the United States, in Canada, in Australia, and in other countries. Maybe it should've been our duty as the new world power to cede part of the American West, particularly after we refused Jewish immigrants that ended up turned back to concentration camps.
But we are where we are. That ship has sailed. Which means moving forward with things as we made them, flawed or not. And that means a 2-state solution. But the longer Israel pursues vengeance over vision the more death and destruction will follow in the generations to come.
There was never really a Palestinian identity as a separate ethnic group until the early 1900s. They were basically Arabized Muslims who lived in Palestine.
But the creation of the State of Israel wasn't about who was actually living there at the time. There was hardly any Jews there when the Balfour Declaration came about in 1917. It was basically the West doing what the West did at the time - carving up the world believing that they knew best.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 15, 2023, 06:12:30 PM
There was never really a Palestinian identity as a separate ethnic group until the early 1900s. They were basically Arabized Muslims who lived in Palestine.
But the creation of the State of Israel wasn't about who was actually living there at the time. There was hardly any Jews there when the Balfour Declaration came about in 1917. It was basically the West doing what the West did at the time - carving up the world believing that they knew best.
Which is why the only option now is to make the best of the world as it is, not as it should be. Two state solution. With heavy investment into Gaza and a Palestinian state to insure they don't just survive, but thrive.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 15, 2023, 05:42:31 PM
Allies did cede their territory. The British and the French controlled the area after routing the Ottomans out.
A Jewish state in the Middle East makes sense in a historical and cultural framework. A Jewish state derived from territory the "Allies ceded", presumably in Western Europe makes no sense and rest on this silly notion of Israel as a bunch of European settlers, when not even 40% of the Jewish population is descended from Western European Jews. And Jews only make up 74% of Israel. So less than a third of Israel are "Europeans"
The idea of a "Palestine", and a unified identity/Palestinian state, only came about in response to Jewish migration and Israel. It's not like there was some long fight for a Palestinian state in the 1800s that got thrown aside for Israel. The main group pushing the Ottomans out to change the whole region was Saudis from the region along the Red Sea.
That's not to lessen any sort of Palestinian identity and desire for a state going on right now. Nor to blanket justify Israeli actions over the years. But there is a lot of revisionist history suggesting that the Palestinian people/cause/general goal 75/100/125 years ago was anything like it is today.
Not sure this is completely accurate historically. The British and French aligned with a bunch of different Arab groups promising them land/country in exchange for fighting the Ottoman Empire. At that time, there was an agreement/plan to establish Arab control of what is now Palestine.
Saying that prior to that there wasn't a big fight/push for a Palestinian state doesn't really make sense historically. The area was under Arab control, and the Palestinians already lived there. Most of the ruling parties before and after in the vicinity wanted the creation of an Arab controlled region that would preserve the holy land for all.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 15, 2023, 05:42:31 PM
Allies did cede their territory. The British and the French controlled the area after routing the Ottomans out.
A Jewish state in the Middle East makes sense in a historical and cultural framework. A Jewish state derived from territory the "Allies ceded", presumably in Western Europe makes no sense and rest on this silly notion of Israel as a bunch of European settlers, when not even 40% of the Jewish population is descended from Western European Jews. And Jews only make up 74% of Israel. So less than a third of Israel are "Europeans"
The idea of a "Palestine", and a unified identity/Palestinian state, only came about in response to Jewish migration and Israel. It's not like there was some long fight for a Palestinian state in the 1800s that got thrown aside for Israel. The main group pushing the Ottomans out to change the whole region was Saudis from the region along the Red Sea.
That's not to lessen any sort of Palestinian identity and desire for a state going on right now. Nor to blanket justify Israeli actions over the years. But there is a lot of revisionist history suggesting that the Palestinian people/cause/general goal 75/100/125 years ago was anything like it is today.
Oh come on. The age of colonialism was over.
Not to mention, the Jewish people hadn't controlled that part of the world for centuries. Gifting that land was a mistake, but a deliberate one to prevent the reestablishment of the Islamic Caliphate after the fall of the Ottoman Empire which had also been on decline for a long time. The lines that were drawn in the Middle East by the French and the English were intentionally terrible to make sure that the people in the region were constantly at war with each other to keep them weak. The USSR learned this lesson and did the same with it's smaller SSRs (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, etc.) And look how effective it has been! The West wanted the oil in the region and the best way to secure it was to keep everyone fighting each other.
Creating the state of Israel from whole cloth was a terrible idea. Setting up a UN administered state with a charter/constitution for equal rights for all people would have been a much better idea. We were pretty good at creating something from nothing post WW2 and what we created there was a tinderbox that was assured to explode constantly.
This was the last desperate gasp of colonialism. "If we can't keep em, we will keep em weak."
Quote from: forgetful on October 15, 2023, 06:24:53 PM
Not sure this is completely accurate historically. The British and French aligned with a bunch of different Arab groups promising them land/country in exchange for fighting the Ottoman Empire. At that time, there was an agreement/plan to establish Arab control of what is now Palestine.
Saying that prior to that there wasn't a big fight/push for a Palestinian state doesn't really make sense historically. The area was under Arab control, and the Palestinians already lived there. Most of the ruling parties before and after in the vicinity wanted the creation of an Arab controlled region that would preserve the holy land for all.
Yea but controlled by who Hashemites (Jordan), Hejazis (Western Saudi), Egypt? They just wanted the Turks out. Color me skeptical that there would have magically been a new "neutral" Arab state not controlled by one of those countries expanding their borders. Not to mention the Shammar/Rashidi Emirate to the East that was fighting and aligned with the Turks.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 15, 2023, 06:30:00 PM
Oh come on. The age of colonialism was over.
By the end of WWII, sure. But not in 1917 when things began happening post-Ottoman. It was very much still part of the mentality, for better or actually for worse.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 15, 2023, 06:30:00 PM
Not to mention, the Jewish people hadn't controlled that part of the world for centuries.
But neither did anyone who would have wanted to claim it. The Ottomans had it 400 years. The few hundred years before that been a collection of fighting between crusaders and various Sultans/kingdoms that no longer existed.
The wisdom of firmly establishing a new nation can be absolutely debated but it was an area very and truly up for grabs with a very eclectic mix of Muslims, Christians, Druze, etc collectively from 5-6 neighboring countries/kingdoms which has been now distilled into this idea of a Muslim Palestinian, like those that reside in Gaza or West Bank, that had always been sourced there.
And while the Balfour Declaration accelerated it, Jewish migration back to the area had been going on for 100 years from Europe and the Middle East, especially when pogroms occurred in Russia. Part of the reason why an alternate Jewish territory in the US/Canada or Australia made no sense to me
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 15, 2023, 06:15:42 PM
Which is why the only option now is to make the best of the world as it is, not as it should be. Two state solution. With heavy investment into Gaza and a Palestinian state to insure they don't just survive, but thrive.
I don't disagree. And I fully support that as well. But people need to be honest about this and what they actually support. Just as a two state solution shouldn't have outsized Jewish influence or control, people aren't being honest about what they think "Free Palestine" really means.
"Free Palestine" with a removal of Israeli occupation/blockades/control? Sure definitely. But if you're chanting or tweeting stuff like "From the river to the sea" you're advocating for the dissolution/destruction of Israel. Nor the idea that a free Palestine with self determination can fight for what they feel is rightfully theirs which just gets us back to the 60s.
There are plenty of sensible pro-Palestinian advocates who just want freedom and a better life for Palestinians. But there are many many who make it very clear that they don't agree with or respect Israel's existence or presence in the region. I'm not even calling them anti-Semitic but dishonest about what they actually want for the region.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 15, 2023, 07:22:12 PM
But neither did anyone who would have wanted to claim it. The Ottomans had it 400 years. The few hundred years before that been a collection of fighting between crusaders and various Sultans/kingdoms that no longer existed.
I mean, I think the people who lived there wanted to claim it.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 15, 2023, 07:22:12 PMI don't disagree. And I fully support that as well. But people need to be honest about this and what they actually support. Just as a two state solution shouldn't have outsized Jewish influence or control, people aren't being honest about what they think "Free Palestine" really means.
"Free Palestine" with a removal of Israeli occupation/blockades/control? Sure definitely. But if you're chanting or tweeting stuff like "From the river to the sea" you're advocating for the dissolution/destruction of Israel. Nor the idea that a free Palestine with self determination can fight for what they feel is rightfully theirs which just gets us back to the 60s.
There are plenty of sensible pro-Palestinian advocates who just want freedom and a better life for Palestinians. But there are many many who make it very clear that they don't agree with or respect Israel's existence or presence in the region. I'm not even calling them anti-Semitic but dishonest about what they actually want for the region.
Agree with all of this. I want a Jewish homeland, but not at the expense of a Palestinian homeland for the families that have been there for generations. And vice versa. Obviously peace is the hardest solution, but in 1941 the idea of the Allies not just winning but turning around and rebuilding Germany and Japan likely seemed just as unlikely.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 15, 2023, 04:59:22 PM
Because that is flawed thinking born out by generations of matching violence with violence. Give them the opportunity to thrive, like we did with Germany and Japan, and they will thrive. Give them hate and they will revisit that hate on you.
We gave Germany and Japan the opportunity to thrive only after we matched their violence with our violence and then some. We brought them to their knees, they surrendered and we stationed soldiers throughout their borders while denying them the ability to defend themselves except through us. After a couple of generations enough of the cancer that dominated their societies was in remission and they did indeed thrive. As long as Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups that want a Jewish "solution" that matches Hitler's hold sway in the Mideast the idea of peace is a pipe dream. Crush them and deprogram the Palestinian populace for a couple of generations and there's a chance. But until the cancer is removed there's no hope of that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2023, 08:16:57 PM
We gave Germany and Japan the opportunity to thrive only after we matched their violence with our violence and then some. We brought them to their knees, they surrendered and we stationed soldiers throughout their borders while denying them the ability to defend themselves except through us. After a couple of generations enough of the cancer that dominated their societies was in remission and they did indeed thrive. As long as Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups that want a Jewish "solution" that matches Hitler's hold sway in the Mideast the idea of peace is a pipe dream. Crush them and deprogram the Palestinian populace for a couple of generations and there's a chance. But until the cancer is removed there's no hope of that.
Lenny,
This isn't important to Brew. Pay attention Lenny because this is mariana trench deep: He "wants a Jewish homeland, but not at the expense of the Palestinians". If somehow Netanyahu and the IDF can heed Brew's advice, not a single soul will perish. Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Iran's Supreme Leader will all celebrate Hanukkah and go to a Seder with the families of those murdered and members of the Israeli Knesset.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 15, 2023, 08:51:51 PM
Lenny,
This isn't important to Brew. Pay attention Lenny because this is mariana trench deep: He "wants a Jewish homeland, but not at the expense of the Palestinians". If somehow Netanyahu and the IDF can heed Brew's advice, not a single soul will perish. Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Iran's Supreme Leader will all celebrate Hanukkah and go to a Seder with the families of those murdered and members of the Israeli Knesset.
I'll say one thing about you Muggs, I'm proud that you've taken such an interest in learning about Judaism in the last week. Perhaps by the end of the month you'll be reciting the Torah in Hebrew. Shalom, brother.
Column by the NYT's Bret Stephens, headlined: Hamas Bears the Blame for Every Death in This War:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/hamas-war-israel-gaza.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231016&instance_id=105310&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=147448&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Includes this 3-paragraph passage:
Consider: Hamas launched an attack with a wantonness like what the Nazis showed at Babyn Yar or ISIS at Sinjar. It did so knowing that it would provoke the most furious Israeli response possible. Why put millions of Palestinians at risk? Because Hamas has learned that it profits at least as much from Palestinian deaths as it does from Israeli ones — the more of each, the better.
Murdering Jews is an end in its own right for Hamas, because it believes it fulfills a theological aim. The original Hamas covenant invokes this injunction: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.'" Hamas later softened the language from "Jews" to "Zionists" and "kill" to "resisting the occupation with all means and methods," but the meaning is the same.
Hamas also achieves practical and propagandistic goals by putting Palestinians in harm's way. More civilians in combat zones mean more human shields for its forces. More dead and wounded Palestinians mean more sympathy for its side and more condemnation of Israel.
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2023, 06:27:08 AM
Column by the NYT's Bret Stephens, headlined: Hamas Bears the Blame for Every Death in This War:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/hamas-war-israel-gaza.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231016&instance_id=105310&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=147448&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Includes this 3-paragraph passage:
Consider: Hamas launched an attack with a wantonness like what the Nazis showed at Babyn Yar or ISIS at Sinjar. It did so knowing that it would provoke the most furious Israeli response possible. Why put millions of Palestinians at risk? Because Hamas has learned that it profits at least as much from Palestinian deaths as it does from Israeli ones — the more of each, the better.
Murdering Jews is an end in its own right for Hamas, because it believes it fulfills a theological aim. The original Hamas covenant invokes this injunction: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.'" Hamas later softened the language from "Jews" to "Zionists" and "kill" to "resisting the occupation with all means and methods," but the meaning is the same.
Hamas also achieves practical and propagandistic goals by putting Palestinians in harm's way. More civilians in combat zones mean more human shields for its forces. More dead and wounded Palestinians mean more sympathy for its side and more condemnation of Israel.
Did you see what Omar posted on X? Beyond belief. Even for her.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 06:38:49 AM
Did you see what Omar posted on X? Beyond belief. Even for her.
Nope. Never paid attention before. Not going to do so now.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 16, 2023, 07:00:02 AM
Nope. Never paid attention before. Not going to do so now.
She said we should wage an illegal war against our enemies in the Middle East without any care for human life
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 06:38:49 AM
Did you see what Omar posted on X? Beyond belief. Even for her.
What were told to be outraged about now?
Also, where do I stand?
She also wants to turn Iran into a parking lot for no reason other than bloodlust? What a coincidence.
https://youtu.be/RpbJbOiIUS8?si=T-Cir5E45aI16zfD, hey?
Reports: Hamas Kills Palestinian Civilians Trying to Flee; Won't Let Americans Leave, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 07:19:15 AM
Reports: Hamas Kills Palestinian Civilians Trying to Flee; Won't Let Americans Leave, hey?
Yes, Hamas is evil and Israel's response, including ground troops is a warranted and necessary response
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 06:38:49 AM
Did you see what Omar posted on X? Beyond belief. Even for her.
I didn't. I don't use the twits, a cesspool for antisemitism. I'm surprised you support it.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 07:19:15 AM
Reports: Hamas Kills Palestinian Civilians Trying to Flee; Won't Let Americans Leave, hey?
Egypt said the problem with Americans leaving is damage on the other side. Some American outlets say Hamas won't let them leave. American's in Gaza say that the problem is the border is still closed on the Egyptian side.
The damage on the other side is known to be caused by Israeli bombing.
So no idea who is responsible for Americans not being able to leave by the only exit left in the country.
Report: Bigot in Illinois stabs and kills Muslim child 20+ times because he fears they are coming to take his country away.
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2023, 08:06:36 AM
I didn't. I don't use the twits, a cesspool for antisemitism. I'm surprised you support it.
Did I say I use it? I saw the reporting on her disgusting post.
Quote from: reinko on October 16, 2023, 08:58:01 AM
Report: Bigot in Illinois stabs and kills Muslim child 20+ times because he fears they are coming to take his country away.
What's going on in Israel is bringing out the worst in some people. There have been numerous reports of spikes in both antisemitism and Islamophobia in America and other countries, including the horrific event you mentioned.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-allegedly-kills-boy-wounds-mother-heinous-stabbing-muslim-faith
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:02:58 AM
Did I say I use it? I saw the reporting on her disgusting post.
Even though you tend to exaggerate everything, I'll trust you that her post was the kind of thing that stokes anger against one "side" or the other.
Obviously, any of us can comb the news and find "disgusting" posts from all kinds of folks these days, including the unquestioned GOP leader praising those in charge of Hamas for their intelligence.
Is there something inaccurate with Trump's criticism of Bibi, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 09:11:31 AM
Is there something inaccurate with Trump's criticism of Bibi, hey?
Criticism of Israeli leadership and policy is antisemitic, a super smart Scooper once told me.
Quote from: tower912 on October 16, 2023, 07:07:56 AM
She also wants to turn Iran into a parking lot for no reason other than bloodlust? What a coincidence.
I'm not the problem Tower, Iran is. I'm also not a sitting member of Congress. I didn't write "turn Iran into a parking lot." Legality? You want to talk about legality? Is it legal for us to have our border wide open and people pouring in that we cannot properly vet? In two days Iran's missle embargo will expire. They are taking in billions of dollars to kill people in Israel and Ukraine. We aren't doing nearly enough or frankly much at all. Why are we allowing Qatar to host their leaders and make potential deals? Why doesn't Biden or other Western leaders immediately bring back all the nuclear provisions against Iran? They're just going to allow this embargo to lapse? WTF? You and many others here are beyond foolish, on the wrong side, and living in la-la-land.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 09:11:31 AM
Is there something inaccurate with Trump's criticism of Bibi, hey?
"Hamas is very smart." - 91-felony criminal defendant
"You don't congratulate or give any credit to murderers. Period. You don't. What you do is you call them out." - Nikki Haley
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:13:25 AM
I'm not the problem Tower, Iran is. I'm also not a sitting member of Congress. I didn't write "turn Iran into a parking lot." Legality? You want to talk about legality? Is it legal for us to have our border wide open and people pouring in that we cannot properly vet? In two days Iran's missle embargo will expire. They are taking in billions of dollars to kill people in Israel and Ukraine. We aren't doing nearly enough or frankly much at all. Why are we allowing Qatar to host their leaders and make potential deals? Why doesn't Biden or other Western leaders immediately bring back all the nuclear provisions against Iran? They're just going to let this embargo to lapse? WTF? You and many others here are beyond foolish, on the wring side, and living in la-la-land.
Says the guy who think we can just seize their oil production.
And our border isn't "wide open." Just stop with that nonsense.
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2023, 09:14:38 AM
"Hamas is very smart." - 91-felony criminal defendant
"You don't congratulate or give any credit to murderers. Period. You don't. What you do is you call them out." - Nikki Haley
Trump has made asinine statements. Many Republicans are completely wrong about Ukraine and should be criticized. That's not the subject of this thread.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 16, 2023, 09:16:00 AM
Says the guy who think we can just seize their oil production.
And our border isn't "wide open." Just stop with that nonsense.
Okay Fluffy Mayorkas. Our border is completely secure......uh-huh.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:13:25 AM
I'm not the problem Tower, Iran is. I'm also not a sitting member of Congress. I didn't write "turn Iran into a parking lot." Legality? You want to talk about legality? Is it legal for us to have our border wide open and people pouring in that we cannot properly vet? In two days Iran's missle embargo will expire. They are taking in billions of dollars to kill people in Israel and Ukraine. We aren't doing nearly enough or frankly much at all. Why are we allowing Qatar to host their leaders and make potential deals? Why doesn't Biden or other Western leaders immediately bring back all the nuclear provisions against Iran? They're just going to allow this embargo to lapse? WTF? You and many others here are beyond foolish, on the wrong side, and living in la-la-land.
(https://media.tenor.com/Ho5cL0xF_Z8AAAAC/all-over-the-place-you-are-all-over-the-place.gif)
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2023, 09:08:08 AM
Even though you tend to exaggerate everything, I'll trust you that her post was the kind of thing that stokes anger against one "side" or the other.
Obviously, any of us can comb the news and find "disgusting" posts from all kinds of folks these days, including the unquestioned GOP leader praising those in charge of Hamas for their intelligence.
.
I actually went through her tweets over the past week. No idea what Muggsy is talking about. Curious why he won't explain it to us.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:18:26 AM
Okay Fluffy Mayorkas. Our border is completely secure......uh-huh.
Sigh....reading is hard I guess...
Omar posts a picture of Syrian children being gassed by Assad, captions it as Israeli's killing Palestinian children, and I hear crickets from the footsie people here. Inexcusable. Dismiss her. And Talib.
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2023, 09:14:38 AM
"Hamas is very smart." - 91-felony criminal defendant
"You don't congratulate or give any credit to murderers. Period. You don't. What you do is you call them out." - Nikki Haley
Frankly, Hamas caught the Israelis with their pants down. Haley is not wrong, but wait and see what happens next. Actions speak louder than words, aina?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:17:12 AM
Trump has made asinine statements. Many Republicans are completely wrong about Ukraine and should be criticized. That's not the subject of this thread.
Respectfully, Muggs, you are very loose with facts on this entire issue. Thankfully, we have leaders who actually review facts and don't make knee-jerk responses. You said a little while back that you would step away; I suggest you take your own advice for your own sanity.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 09:24:16 AM
Frankly, Hamas caught the Israelis with their pants down. Haley is not wrong, but wait and see what happens next. Actions speak louder than words, aina?
Stop supporting an antisemite.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2023, 08:16:57 PM
We gave Germany and Japan the opportunity to thrive only after we matched their violence with our violence and then some. We brought them to their knees, they surrendered and we stationed soldiers throughout their borders while denying them the ability to defend themselves except through us. After a couple of generations enough of the cancer that dominated their societies was in remission and they did indeed thrive. As long as Hamas, Hezbollah and other groups that want a Jewish "solution" that matches Hitler's hold sway in the Mideast the idea of peace is a pipe dream. Crush them and deprogram the Palestinian populace for a couple of generations and there's a chance. But until the cancer is removed there's no hope of that.
Which has been done to the Palestinian public through apartheid for 70+ years. Would you have advocated the "crush them" stance on the South African populace in the early 1990s? Did they need to remove the "cancer" of that subjugated population as well?
Palestine has been held in a state like this for generations already and as the events of the past week have shown it hasn't helped because there's never been a true effort and investment in improving their state. You may not be as blatant as Muggsy in here, but this kind of rhetoric is just as toxic.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:23:30 AM
Omar posts a picture of Syrian children being gassed by Assad, captions it as Israeli's killing Palestinian children, and I hear crickets from the footsie people here. Inexcusable. Dismiss her. And Talib.
The tweet was fine. The photo was, obviously, awful.
Charlie Kirk's just asking questions.
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-toady-floats-deranged-conspiracy-theory-netanyahu-allowed-hamas-attack-to-happen-for-political-reasons/
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:23:30 AM
Omar posts a picture of Syrian children being gassed by Assad, captions it as Israeli's killing Palestinian children, and I hear crickets from the footsie people here. Inexcusable. Dismiss her. And Talib.
You think that a Congressperson should be kicked out of Congress for posting a picture?
Anyway, I think you are failing to fully understand the stance of most people here.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 09:23:30 AM
Omar posts a picture of Syrian children being gassed by Assad, captions it as Israeli's killing Palestinian children, and I hear crickets from the footsie people here. Inexcusable. Dismiss her. And Talib.
Islamophobe.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 16, 2023, 09:30:35 AM
You think that a Congressperson should be kicked out of Congress for posting a picture?
Anyway, I think you are failing to fully understand the stance of most people here.
Damn certain one shoulda been drop kicked out for displaying the Palestinian flag at her governmental office, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 09:45:13 AM
Damn certain one shoulda been drop kicked out for displaying the Palestinian flag at her governmental office, aina?
Nope.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 09:45:13 AM
Damn certain one shoulda been drop kicked out for displaying the Palestinian flag at her governmental office, aina?
Same for everyone else who's ever displayed a non-U.S. flag outside their office?
What flag do y'all display outside your offices, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 10:18:16 AM
What flag do y'all display outside your offices, hey?
(https://nicedecal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Rock-Band-s-Black-Flag-Decal__42921.1511160478_efe1053e-092d-4906-9253-d5af15daa1c8.jpg)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 10:37:50 AM
(https://nicedecal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Rock-Band-s-Black-Flag-Decal__42921.1511160478_efe1053e-092d-4906-9253-d5af15daa1c8.jpg)
This is, of course, the correct answer. 8-)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 10:18:16 AM
What flag do y'all display outside your offices, hey?
Pride flag so I can drink the tears of evangelicals
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 10:18:16 AM
What flag do y'all display outside your offices, hey?
The US flag and a MU flag.
Dan Hurley displays Cooper Flagg
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 16, 2023, 09:26:17 AM
Which has been done to the Palestinian public through apartheid for 70+ years. Would you have advocated the "crush them" stance on the South African populace in the early 1990s? Did they need to remove the "cancer" of that subjugated population as well?
Palestine has been held in a state like this for generations already and as the events of the past week have shown it hasn't helped because there's never been a true effort and investment in improving their state. You may not be as blatant as Muggsy in here, but this kind of rhetoric is just as toxic.
Apartheid was/is an awful policy. Subjugating people because of their race or religion is wrong and inhuman. Saying that subjugating a group is the same thing as annihilating them is foolish. Your equivalencies are as false as they are dangerous.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 11:14:39 AM
Apartheid was/is an awful policy. Subjugating people because of their race or religion is wrong and inhuman. Saying that subjugating a group is the same thing as annihilating them is foolish. Your equivalencies are as false as they are dangerous.
We have now entered the "their atrocities are worse than our atrocities" stage of the conversation.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 10:18:16 AM
What flag do y'all display outside your offices, hey?
None, that would be virtue signaling.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2023, 07:19:15 AM
Reports: Won't Let Americans Leave, hey?
To follow up on this. The Wall Street Journal reports otherwise. Egypt wants humanitarian aid to go through if the gates are opened. Israel won't agree to not bomb the humanitarian aid. So everything sits idle.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-push-for-gaza-border-opening-stumbles-as-humanitarian-plight-worsens-b825d122 (https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-push-for-gaza-border-opening-stumbles-as-humanitarian-plight-worsens-b825d122)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 11:34:18 AM
We have now entered the "their atrocities are worse than our atrocities" stage of the conversation.
Yes. Genocide is worse than apartheid. That you have pause on that statement is troubling.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 12:59:22 PM
Yes. Genocide is worse than apartheid. That you have pause on that statement is troubling.
I see we've reached the "making sh*t up" stage of the conversation.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 11:14:39 AM
Apartheid was/is an awful policy. Subjugating people because of their race or religion is wrong and inhuman. Saying that subjugating a group is the same thing as annihilating them is foolish. Your equivalencies are as false as they are dangerous.
The United Nations (https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702), Amnesty International (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/), and Human Rights Watch (https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) have all determined Israel holds Palestine as an apartheid state. I know it's easier to dodge the question than actually address it, but I asked you pretty straightforward questions based on your own words.
For the record, I find both apartheid and genocide to be evil practices that should not be employed. Which is why I cannot justify the practices of either Israel or Hamas. And I'm certainly not going to use one to excuse the other.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 16, 2023, 09:26:17 AM
Which has been done to the Palestinian public through apartheid for 70+ years.
This is simply not true. It's semantics, but it's worthwhile cause it implies the minute Israel came into existence it subjugated Palestinians through apartheid as if it was a principle goal of the country.
Israel had no claim or presence in Gaza or West Bank for the first 20 years of its existence, unless you're claiming Palestinians were under apartheid from the Egyptians or Jordanians
I would also argue that if one was to consider Israel an apartheid state, then it didn't become that way until post-2005 Hamas control and the blockade.
The second point is arguable, the first is not IMO.
One interesting point, putting aside Gaza, West Bank Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israeli citizens. But absent a Palestinian state, would they actually want to be Israeli citizens? I'm sure it's mixed opinion. But yet another example of the way that there really can't be any progress from the place we've gotten short of a two state solution, it's gotten too polarized.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 16, 2023, 01:45:06 PM
The United Nations (https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702), Amnesty International (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/), and Human Rights Watch (https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) have all determined Israel holds Palestine as an apartheid state. I know it's easier to dodge the question than actually address it, but I asked you pretty straightforward questions based on your own words.
For the record, I find both apartheid and genocide to be evil practices that should not be employed. Which is why I cannot justify the practices of either Israel or Hamas. And I'm certainly not going to use one to excuse the other.
I did answer your question. Segregation and discrimination are abhorrent policies. People can, should and have successfully lobbied against them. When the goal is genocide lobbying won't save you from the gas chamber or the beheading.
Of course they're both wrong. But they're not remotely the same. Saying "they're both wrong" misses the larger point that one is way, way more wrong - the most wrong thing that any group can try to visit on another. It makes your argument dishonest.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 02:58:29 PM
Of course they're both wrong. But they're not remotely the same. Saying "they're both wrong" misses the larger point that one is way, way more wrong - the most wrong thing that any group can try to visit on another. It makes your argument dishonest.
Why is it important to rank the atrocities?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 03:14:05 PM
Why is it important to rank the atrocities?
Who was more evil, dangerous and in need of being taken out - de Klerk or Hitler?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 16, 2023, 12:28:05 PM
None, that would be virtue signaling.
what did you do with your antisemitic blm flag? give it to ww?
i proudly fly the USA & MU flags
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 16, 2023, 07:13:18 PM
what did you do with your antisemitic blm flag? give it to ww?
i proudly fly the USA & MU flags
Both would like you to take them down
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 06:19:04 PM
Who was more evil, dangerous and in need of being taken out - de Klerk or Hitler?
So ... why not both?
This is where you're badly missing the point. There's no need to spin a false narrative where we have to choose between murderous terrorists on one side and an oppressive apartheid regime on the other.
The only correct answer is to reject BOTH evils.
To be sure, we should support Israel's right to defend itself and bring justice to those responsible for the Oct. 7 attacks. And for other geopolitical reasons, Israel is an ally and should continue to be an ally. But that doesn't mean we should accept their misdeeds, or twist ourselves in pretzels trying to defend them with arguments like yours. Instead, we should use our relationship with them to dissuade them from their worst instincts and encourages them to seek an equitable solution.
Right now, Israel is waging a war to wipe out Hamas, and I hope they achieve that goal. But when this is over, they're still going to be surrounded by Palestinians and other Arabs. And they're going to have to find a peace with them, one that hopefully avoids oppressing their neighbors. Otherwise, it's lather, rinse repeat.
But in the meantime, have fun with stupid and pointless internet debates over which sides' bad behavior is worse.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 16, 2023, 07:13:18 PM
what did you do with your antisemitic blm flag? give it to ww?
i proudly fly the USA & MU flags
Criticism of BLM?
Racist.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 07:21:07 PM
So ... why not both?
This is where you're badly missing the point. There's no need to spin a false narrative where we have to choose between murderous terrorists on one side and an oppressive apartheid regime on the other.
The only correct answer is to reject BOTH evils.
To be sure, we should support Israel's right to defend itself and bring justice to those responsible for the Oct. 7 attacks. And for other geopolitical reasons, Israel is an ally and should continue to be an ally. But that doesn't mean we should accept their misdeeds, or twist ourselves in pretzels trying to defend them with arguments like yours. Instead, we should use our relationship with them to dissuade them from their worst instincts and encourages them to seek an equitable solution.
Right now, Israel is waging a war to wipe out Hamas, and I hope they achieve that goal. But when this is over, they're still going to be surrounded by Palestinians and other Arabs. And they're going to have to find a peace with them, one that hopefully avoids oppressing their neighbors. Otherwise, it's lather, rinse repeat.
But in the meantime, have fun with stupid and pointless internet debates over which sides' bad behavior is worse.
Thank you for reiterating your point of view. Israel is evil and I assume you think the United States is evil as well. And as we have seen, all of the Arab states are willing to take in the Palestinians and help them as much as possible. Meanwhile, in Pakumi world, don't compare the atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and others, to the USA or Israel. The level of evilness is exactly the same.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 07:47:56 PM
Thank you for reiterating your point of view. Israel is evil and I assume you think the United States is evil as well. And as we have seen, all of the Arab states are willing to take in the Palestinians and help them as much as possible. Meanwhile, in Pakumi world, don't compare the atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and others, to the USA or Israel. The level of evilness is exactly the same.
He's said nothing of the sort
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 07:47:56 PM
Thank you for reiterating your point of view. Israel is evil and I assume you think the United States is evil as well. And as we have seen, all of the Arab states are willing to take in the Palestinians and help them as much as possible. Meanwhile, in Pakumi world, don't compare the atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and others, to the USA or Israel. The level of evilness is exactly the same.
You advocate for all this death and destruction, including any civilians caught in the crossfire as some magic way to solve this problem.
I want you to imagine yourself, huddling in a bombed out building with your pregnant wife, and young children. You have supported peace and were against Hamas' actions your entire life. You have no food, water, or medicine for your wife and children. All calls for aid were denied. Aid trucks were either bombed or threatened to be bombed.
You are going to watch your wife and children slowly die of starvation and lack of clean water. All while people on the other side say you deserve to die, that you are "animals."
If you happen to live through all of that, having lost everything. What do you do next?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 16, 2023, 07:50:29 PM
He's said nothing of the sort
Translate what he said and how it makes sense.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 07:47:56 PM
I assume you think the United States is evil as well.
This is just dopey, Muggs. He didn't say that, neither did anybody else here, and it's this kind of outrageous over-the-top crapola that has gotten things where they are in our society.
FWIW, I'm much more of a hawkish, pro-Israel person than most of the Scoopers you're arguing with, but your rhetoric is beyond unhelpful; it's corrosive.
Quote from: forgetful on October 16, 2023, 07:58:55 PM
You advocate for all this death and destruction, including any civilians caught in the crossfire as some magic way to solve this problem.
I want you to imagine yourself, huddling in a bombed out building with your pregnant wife, and young children. You have supported peace and were against Hamas' actions your entire life. You have no food, water, or medicine for your wife and children. All calls for aid were denied. Aid trucks were either bombed or threatened to be bombed.
You are going to watch your wife and children slowly die of starvation and lack of clean water. All while people on the other side say you deserve to die, that you are "animals."
If you happen to live through all of that, having lost everything. What do you do next?
Do you think the Israelis are the ones who don't (didn't) want a 2-State solution or is it Palestinian leadership?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:00:06 PM
Translate what he said and how it makes sense.
Which is why people don't take you seriously.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:01:35 PM
Do you think the Israelis are the ones who don't (didn't) want a 2-State solution or is it Palestinian leadership?
Netanyahu doesn't
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 16, 2023, 08:02:50 PM
Netanyahu doesn't
Okay. But what about the PA and Hamas. Why don't you educate us on all of the possible deals over the years and what exactly happened.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:00:06 PM
Translate what he said and how it makes sense.
I don't have the time or crayons to explain it to you.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:06:44 PM
Okay. But what about the PA and Hamas. Why don't you educate us on all of the possible deals over the years and what exactly happened.
I never said they did but it's not a one-way street like you insinuated. Netanyahu's rhetoric enflamed the far right that helped lead to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin over the Oslo Accords.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 08:06:55 PM
I don't have the time or crayons to explain it to you.
I didn't ask for you to translate but why don't you comment about Hamas specifically targeting Elementary Schools and Youth Centers? What's the overall philosophy behind that?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:11:45 PM
I didn't ask for you to translate but why don't you' comment about Hamas specifically targeting Elementary Schools and Youth Centers? What's the overall philosophy behind that?
Pakuni called Hamas evil and supports Israel's rights to defend itself and take on Hamas. Next.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:01:35 PM
Do you think the Israelis are the ones who don't (didn't) want a 2-State solution or is it Palestinian leadership?
You didn't answer my question.
Also, Netanyahu once said after Chinese atrocities (which was distracting the world), that they missed the opportunity "to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the (occupied) territories".
So how about you take another chance at answering my question.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 16, 2023, 08:11:22 PM
I never said they did but it's not a one-way street like you insinuated. Netanyahu's rhetoric enflamed the far right that helped lead to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin over the Oslo Accords.
Oh.....that clears everything up.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:12:59 PM
Oh.....that clears everything up.
Good. Glad to help.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:06:44 PM
Okay. But what about the PA and Hamas. Why don't you educate us on all of the possible deals over the years and what exactly happened.
The PA has been calling for a 2-state solution since something like 1982. I'm not sure how much you know about the history of which you speak.
The UN has repeatedly tried to pass 2-state solutions, but Israel and the US vote against it, with the US vetoing it.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:11:45 PM
I didn't ask for you to translate but why don't you comment about Hamas specifically targeting Elementary Schools and Youth Centers? What's the overall philosophy behind that?
Hamas is an evil organization and their actions have been consistently monstrous. I hope Israel succeeds in eliminating it.
Why don't you comment on Israel bombing an area where the IDF had encouraged refugees to go, killing 70 civilians.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 08:20:38 PM
Hamas is an evil organization and their actions have been consistently monstrous. I hope Israel succeeds in eliminating it.
Why don't you comment on Israel bombing an area where the IDF had encouraged refugees to go, killing 70 civilians.
Is Hamas allowing Gazans to leave,?
NM
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 08:25:48 PM
Is Hamas allowing Gazans to leave,?
Obviously.
But that doesn't answer my question. Give it another go.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 07:21:07 PM
So ... why not both?
This is where you're badly missing the point. There's no need to spin a false narrative where we have to choose between murderous terrorists on one side and an oppressive apartheid regime on the other.
The only correct answer is to reject BOTH evils.
To be sure, we should support Israel's right to defend itself and bring justice to those responsible for the Oct. 7 attacks. And for other geopolitical reasons, Israel is an ally and should continue to be an ally. But that doesn't mean we should accept their misdeeds, or twist ourselves in pretzels trying to defend them with arguments like yours. Instead, we should use our relationship with them to dissuade them from their worst instincts and encourages them to seek an equitable solution.
Right now, Israel is waging a war to wipe out Hamas, and I hope they achieve that goal. But when this is over, they're still going to be surrounded by Palestinians and other Arabs. And they're going to have to find a peace with them, one that hopefully avoids oppressing their neighbors. Otherwise, it's lather, rinse repeat.
But in the meantime, have fun with stupid and pointless internet debates over which sides' bad behavior is worse.
Sorry, you'll never convince me that all bad behavior is the same. I think genocide is the most serious crime man can commit/advocate and it's not close.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 08:42:40 PM
Sorry, you'll never convince me that all bad behavior is the same. I think genocide is the most serious crime man can commit/advocate and it's not close.
Lenny.... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not explaining myself very well.
I'm not trying to convince you that all bad behavior is the same. Nothing I've written here states or even implies that. I'm simply pointing out that the argument you're trying to make is pointless, futile and unnecessary. The need to choose one evil over another exists only in your mind. In the real world, we can renounce both.
Arguing with Muggsy is like arguing with trump.
Sometimes you just have to say that this guy is too ignorant to bother with. Let the low IQers deal with him.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 08:58:59 PM
Lenny.... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not explaining myself very well, as opposed
to you simply being willfully obtuse
I'm not trying to convince you that all bad behavior is the same. Nothing I've written here states or even implies that. I'm simply pointing out that the argument you're trying to make is pointless, futile and unnecessary. The need to choose one evil over another exists only in your mind. In the real world, we can renounce both.
To phrase this another way, and to possibly give Lenny the little win he is looking for.
If you told me I had to choose either Genocide or Apartheid for my people, I'd choose Apartheid.
But we should live in a world where we are not choosing between those two evils, and both should be condemned.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 08:58:59 PM
Lenny.... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not explaining myself very well, as opposed
to you simply being willfully obtuse
I'm not trying to convince you that all bad behavior is the same. Nothing I've written here states or even implies that. I'm simply pointing out that the argument you're trying to make is pointless, futile and unnecessary. The need to choose one evil over another exists only in your mind. In the real world, we can renounce both.
Pakuni....I'll also give you the benefit of the doubt as opposed to thinking you're being willfully obtuse.just
I'm not "choosing"one evil over another. I'm stating what should be obvious - that the response to each should be dictated by just how evil/heinous they are. And that when faced with an enemy whose stated goal is genocide - your race's extinction - that is facing an evil like no other. And that the response should be whatever it takes.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 09:35:59 PM
Pakuni....I'll also give you the benefit of the doubt as opposed to thinking you're being willfully obtuse.just
I'm not "choosing"one evil over another. I'm stating what should be obvious - that the response to each should be dictated by just how evil/heinous they are. And that when faced with an enemy whose stated goal is genocide - your race's extinction - that is facing an evil like no other. And that the response should be whatever it takes.
If this is your stance, there is a philosophical problem. Who is the entity that gets to decide what counts as "genocide?" In most modern clashes between ethnically distinct groups, each side claims the other is committing genocide.
The same thing is occurring right now. Supporters of each side have accused each other of genocide, or supporting genocide.
If we take your stance, then each side would believe they are morally just in doing whatever it takes, which means a constant escalation of terrible atrocities.
A more philosophically clean stance, is that war crimes, terrorism, apartheid and all the evils going on right now are wrong and should not be allowed.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2023, 09:35:59 PM
And that the response should be whatever it takes.
Including genocide?
Quote from: forgetful on October 16, 2023, 09:50:08 PM
If this is your stance, there is a philosophical problem. Who is the entity that gets to decide what counts as "genocide?" In most modern clashes between ethnically distinct groups, each side claims the other is committing genocide.
The same thing is occurring right now. Supporters of each side have accused each other of genocide, or supporting genocide.
If we take your stance, then each side would believe they are morally just in doing whatever it takes, which means a constant escalation of terrible atrocities.
A more philosophically clean stance, is that war crimes, terrorism, apartheid and all the evils going on right now are wrong and should not be allowed.
Excellent. Out of context, Lenny could be speaking about either side.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 16, 2023, 07:26:08 PM
Criticism of BLM?
Racist.
criticizing blm due to their support for hamas.
blm does not truly represent the good black people they purport to raise all this money for.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 05:30:07 AM
criticizing blm due to their support for hamas.
blm does not truly represent the good black people they purport to raise all this money for.
1 out of 10
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 05:30:07 AM
criticizing blm due to their support for hamas.
blm does not truly represent the good black people they purport to raise all this money for.
Lies.
Perhaps already known, but I see this morning the US is sending 2000 marines as a rapid response force to the area and American troops being prepared for possible deployment. Careful what you wish for.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 17, 2023, 08:06:39 AM
Perhaps already known, but I see this morning the US is sending 2000 marines as a rapid response force to the area and American troops being prepared for possible deployment. Careful what you wish for.
Sounds like Charlie Kirk is right and this is a psyop
expel her: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 17, 2023, 09:03:04 AM
expel her: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620
Cancel culture.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 17, 2023, 09:03:04 AM
expel her: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620
On what grounds?
It is far better to remain silent and let others assume you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 09:56:03 AM
It is far better to remain silent and let others assume you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt, aina?
and yet....
9 and countin', hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 09:56:03 AM
It is far better to remain silent and let others assume you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt, aina?
"Democrats are the biggest threat to America"
You got an issue with Mark Levin. Pretty astute man. Maybe I can gift you an autographed copy, hey?
https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/i/m/4D5755135619027AC2D8A6AC1A95F638612356E7.jpg
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 10:10:36 AM
You got an issue with Mark Levin. Pretty astute man, hey?
Probably a big Mark Levin fan.
Plainfield man fatally stabbed 6-year-old Muslim boy after listening to conservative talk radio, prosecutors say
As the war between Hamas and Israel unfolded in recent days, a Plainfield man became increasingly concerned about what he was hearing on conservative talk radio — and became agitated about the tenants living in his home, a Palestinian American mother and her young son, prosecutors said.
On Saturday, he allegedly attacked her and then stabbed her 6-year-old son to death — horrific allegations that have stunned the Muslim community in Chicago and beyond and drawn condemnation from around the world, including from President Joe Biden.https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2023/10/16/23919242/jospeh-czuba-plainfield-stabbing-palestinian-boy-wadea-al-fayoume-hate-crime
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 10:10:36 AM
You got an issue with Mark Levin. Pretty astute man. Maybe I can gift you an autographed copy, hey?
https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/i/m/4D5755135619027AC2D8A6AC1A95F638612356E7.jpg
I am a fan of grifters. Exposes the suckers in our midst.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 10:10:36 AM
You got an issue with Mark Levin. Pretty astute man. Maybe I can gift you an autographed copy, hey?
https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/i/m/4D5755135619027AC2D8A6AC1A95F638612356E7.jpg
It's just demagoguery, but it's always comforting to find someone that supports your beliefs.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 17, 2023, 09:03:04 AM
expel her: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620
There is zero reason to expel her.
UF's president had a great quote the other day in regards to these sort of stances on campuses
"We will protect our students and we will protect speech. This is always true: Our Constitution protects the rights of people to make abject idiots of themselves."
Maybe MU wouldn't admit her if she was a prospective student and she did this. But as a current student, I don't see any reason to expel her, regardless of how dumb her statements were, short of her calling for violence against other students
They don't have any grounds to expel her. Billy is just being Billy.
Now, if a university were to come out publicly and support Hamas and its behavior, thereby validating the Palestinian position, it would deserve the backlash and consequences of its action, aina?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 16, 2023, 07:47:56 PM
Thank you for reiterating your point of view. Israel is evil and I assume you think the United States is evil as well. And as we have seen, all of the Arab states are willing to take in the Palestinians and help them as much as possible. Meanwhile, in Pakumi world, don't compare the atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and others, to the USA or Israel. The level of evilness is exactly the same.
It is amazing to see an otherwise reasonable person devolve into dentistry right before our eyes.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 11:05:43 AM
Now, if a university were to come out publicly and support Hamas and its behavior, thereby validating the Palestinian position, it would deserve the backlash and consequences of its action, aina?
None will, but that is a nice strawman!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 11:05:43 AM
Now, if a university were to come out publicly and support Hamas and its behavior, thereby validating the Palestinian position, it would deserve the backlash and consequences of its action, aina?
4ever - can you elaborate on what you mean by the bolded?
C'mon man, ur kiddin'. Some of the country's most select universities like Northwestern, Stanford, Penn, Harvard, and even UW have verbally and physically throw their support toward Hamas' atrocities. And those schools, along with their outspoken students, will be held accountable, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 11:27:27 AM
C'mon man, ur kiddin'. Some of the country's most select universities like Northwestern, Stanford, Penn, Harvard, and even UW have verbally and physically throw their support toward Hamas' atrocities. And those schools, along with their outspoken students, will be held accountable, aina?
Citation needed.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 11:27:27 AM
C'mon man, ur kiddin'. Some of the country's most select universities like Northwestern, Stanford, Penn, Harvard, and even UW have verbally and physically throw their support toward Hamas' atrocities. And those schools, along with their outspoken students, will be held accountable, aina?
Here is the UW chancellor's statement. No idea what you are talking about.
https://news.wisc.edu/mnookin-a-message-on-the-tragic-events-in-israel-and-the-palestinian-territories/
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2023/10/13/campus/students-for-justice-in-palestine-hosts-vigil-to-honor-lives-lost-in-gaza-this-week/#modal-photo
I did Doc's homework for him ...
Stanford:
As a moral matter, we condemn all terrorism and mass atrocities. This includes the deliberate attack on civilians this weekend by Hamas.
https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/10/11/update-stanford-community/
Northwestern:
The abhorrent and horrific actions of Hamas on Saturday are clearly antithetical to Northwestern's values — as well as my own. Whatever we might feel about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, our shared humanity should lead us all to condemn these barbaric acts."
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2023/10/13/campus/schill-issues-new-statement-on-israel-hamas-war-free-speech/
Penn:
I want to leave no doubt about where I stand. I, and this University, are horrified by and condemn Hamas's terrorist assault on Israel and their violent atrocities against civilians. There is no justification—none—for these heinous attacks, which have consumed the region and are inciting violence in other parts of the world.
https://penntoday.upenn.edu/announcements/penns-response-recent-events-terrorist-attacks-in-israel
Pakuni, what use are official statements when a bunch of students got someone to change the lighting on the Northwestern library?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 16, 2023, 07:13:18 PM
what did you do with your antisemitic blm flag? give it to ww?
i proudly fly the USA & MU flags
Dentist: blm is antisemtic
Pak: No, that isn't true, here's a link to the facts
Smith: No, that isn't true, those are fake, right-wing accounts posting disinformation. Here is BLM's direct statement
Dentist:...blm is antisemetic
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 17, 2023, 11:46:36 AM
Dentist: blm is antisemtic
Pak: No, that isn't true, here's a link to the facts
Smith: No, that isn't true, those are fake, right-wing accounts posting disinformation. Here is BLM's direct statement
Dentist:...blm is antisemetic
Feelings don't care about your facts.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 17, 2023, 09:03:04 AM
expel her: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620
Welcome back Cheeks/Jr.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 17, 2023, 11:46:36 AM
Dentist: blm is antisemtic
Pak: No, that isn't true, here's a link to the facts
Smith: No, that isn't true, those are fake, right-wing accounts posting disinformation. Here is BLM's direct statement
Dentist:...blm is antisemetic
Googled it:
https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/blm-chicago-admits-it-isnt-proud-of-deleted-post-of-hamas-paraglider/ (https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/blm-chicago-admits-it-isnt-proud-of-deleted-post-of-hamas-paraglider/)
Feelings don't care about your facts.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 17, 2023, 12:13:06 PM
Googled it:
https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/blm-chicago-admits-it-isnt-proud-of-deleted-post-of-hamas-paraglider/ (https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/blm-chicago-admits-it-isnt-proud-of-deleted-post-of-hamas-paraglider/)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/72/95/cAupFrX7_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/cAupFrX7)
I'm happy to share all emails I have received from UPenn, if you'd like. I can tell you that it is a bit of a shite show there. President Magill's first statement as sent out by the board was, in my opinion, not strong enough not just due to the disgusting acts of Hamas but also because UPenn has a large number of Jewish students who should feel safe. Some on the board have since come out against the very statement they approved, unusual and, in my opinion, good.
Very recently, there was a Palestinian Writers event there that resulted in several acts of hate towards the Jewish students. The University botched the handling of the event and its response, in my opinion. The event was to be a good one, meant to highlight Palestinian art, but was mired by noted antisemitic speakers.
Since their initial response to the terrorism against Israel, UPenn has released a very strong worded statement condemning Hamas while standing for peace and humanity. However, there is some chatter that several board members challenged Magill, resigned or were told they could resign, which led to the new release. Additionally, several prominent donors and high level business people have called for donations to stop until Magill and the COB Scott Bok resign.
There will certainly be consequences, and that is absolutely the right of anyone associated with UPenn or otherwise.
Other than trying to enforce certain stereotypes, why is it important to some that a university condemn a terrorist attack?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 11:27:27 AM
C'mon man, ur kiddin'. Some of the country's most select universities like Northwestern, Stanford, Penn, Harvard, and even UW have verbally and physically throw their support toward Hamas' atrocities. And those schools, along with their outspoken students, will be held accountable, aina?
Why so cranky, Doc? You have a decent chance to get an insurrectionist to lead the very chamber against which he helped organize a violent coup attempt. Some of those backing him are antisemites, sure, but still ... cheer up!
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 01:11:59 PM
Other than trying to enforce certain stereotypes, why is it important to some that a university to condemn a terrorist attack?
Yeah, considering these are supposed to be places of research and debate, looking for "the University of X's unified position" on anything is weird.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 01:11:59 PM
Other than trying to enforce certain stereotypes, why is it important to some that a university condemn a terrorist attack?
As long as they only support students I agree with, I'm fine with their statements. We need to crush universities and limit learning as best we can
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 01:11:59 PM
Other than trying to enforce certain stereotypes, why is it important to some that a university condemn a terrorist attack?
Hey, republicans are consistent. They all condemned MAGAt's assault on the Capitol.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 17, 2023, 01:25:49 PM
As long as they only support students I agree with, I'm fine with their statements. We need to crush universities and limit learning as best we can
Puffin' Fingers is ready.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 01:11:59 PM
Other than trying to enforce certain stereotypes, why is it important to some that a university to condemn a terrorist attack?
People often look to college presidents, as leaders of communities, to comment on current events. But they usually are about reflecting on how it impacts the community versus condemning something. The UW's statement is almost exactly how these things read.
https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/17/at-least-500-killed-in-gaza-city-hospital-blast?fromBreakingNews=1
At least 500 killed in Gaza City hospital blast
Quote from: Jockey on October 17, 2023, 01:27:45 PM
Puffin' Fingers is ready.
I wonder where he'll be in a few years? Probably working with Scott Walker
https://apple.news/A58IGkFgpSceWKOoa6ss_-g
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 01:32:22 PM
https://apple.news/A58IGkFgpSceWKOoa6ss_-g
Harvard is doomed.
My sister-in-law in Tel Aviv has been providing the family and some friends daily updates on their situation. Here is how she began today's. She is a very opinionated, very Jewish, and (obviously) very very very pro-Israel ...
+++
Let's start this day by dispelling some terms thrown against Israel:
We are an apartheid state. Ask any South African what apartheid means. No black person could use the same toilets, they could not seat on the same public benches. I believe that they couldn't even walk on the same pavement. The women were maids earning meagre wages and the men were gardeners or only had menial jobs. Arabs in Israel are treated equally. 95% of all pharmacists are Arabs; Arabs are doctors, nurses, brigadiers in the army, they have their own businesses and pay the same taxes. We recently had a huge renovation to our apartment. Our builders were Arabs. We had various quotes for carpentry, for the builders themselves, for the electrician etc. We chose the Arab companies – why? Easy – their work was top notch.
We are occupying Gaza. Gaza is NOT a part of Israel. We have not a legal responsibility to Gaza. We left Gaza in 2005. As a result they had "fair and open" elections. Hamas won. Hamas ran on the ticket that they would provide health services, they would build wealth for the Palestinians. The net result was yes they did provide some social benefits and they also built wealth for themselves. If you are gay then you can expect to be executed if you are caught. Tel Aviv is the gay capital of the world. Israel provides the infrastructure for the electricity. However, the Palestinians are supposed to pay for this. They haven't paid for quite a while. Listen to Joe Biden's speech last night when he said that it would not be a good idea for Israel to occupy Gaza AGAIN - affirming that we do not occupy Gaza.
+++
She went on to add:
Bibi's legacy is dead! He will be remembered as the power-mad egotist who fell asleep on his watch. He was so infatuated by the far, far right that the money that should have gone on defence, education and the health services here instead went on supporting his personal causes.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 17, 2023, 01:28:22 PM
People often look to college presidents, as leaders of communities, to comment on current events. But they usually are about reflecting on how it impacts the community versus condemning something. The UW's statement is almost exactly how these things read.
Do they?
I'm sure you are correct in regards to the university community.
But the public as a whole? Does Doc really look to the presidents of Harvard and Penn for leadership on international affairs? I suspect no more than his local high school principal or the guy who manages the local Wal-Mart (who, I'll note, has been suspiciously quiet about all this. Why hasn't he condemned Hamas???)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 01:48:53 PM
Do they?
I'm sure you are correct in regards to the university community.
But the public as a whole? Does Doc really look to the presidents of Harvard and Penn for leadership on international affairs? I suspect no more than his local high school principal or the guy who manages the local Wal-Mart (who, I'll note, has been suspiciously quiet about all this. Why hasn't he condemned Hamas???)
Yeah I mean the university community. Most people don't give a rip what a university president says about anything outside the community.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 01:32:22 PM
https://apple.news/A58IGkFgpSceWKOoa6ss_-g
That's his right. Harvard will be fine.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 17, 2023, 12:29:33 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/72/95/cAupFrX7_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/cAupFrX7)
I'm not saying I agree with it, just coveying what the googlers could see.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 17, 2023, 02:27:47 PM
I'm not saying I agree with it, just coveying what the googlers could see.
Google is too woke for roqqqet. No way he's using that
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 01:48:53 PM
Do they?
I'm sure you are correct in regards to the university community.
But the public as a whole? Does Doc really look to the presidents of Harvard and Penn for leadership on international affairs? I suspect no more than his local high school principal or the guy who manages the local Wal-Mart (who, I'll note, has been suspiciously quiet about all this. Why hasn't he condemned Hamas???)
I sure hope not. I definitely didn't look to the presidents of Penn and MU for their feelings or comments. I think most of the "obligatory" statements are shallow and no win. EVERYONE I KNOW condemns Hamas, and the fact is that there are Palestinians who are not Hamas at Penn and MU who also need to be supported. Thinking President Magill supports Hamas is dangerous and disingenuous. Thinking she should have been stronger in her primary statement and condemnation of the heinous terrorist acts, definitely, if you expect her to make a statement at all. She will be fired or resign, she will face consequences for her decisions, she should be given grace.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 01:29:46 PM
https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/17/at-least-500-killed-in-gaza-city-hospital-blast?fromBreakingNews=1
At least 500 killed in Gaza City hospital blast
it was a failed hamas rocket launch that caused it contrary (shock) to what hamas et.al. is reporting
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2023, 01:42:38 PM
My sister-in-law in Tel Aviv has been providing the family and some friends daily updates on their situation. Here is how she began today's. She is a very opinionated, very Jewish, and (obviously) very very very pro-Israel ...
+++
Let's start this day by dispelling some terms thrown against Israel:
We are an apartheid state. Ask any South African what apartheid means. No black person could use the same toilets, they could not seat on the same public benches. I believe that they couldn't even walk on the same pavement. The women were maids earning meagre wages and the men were gardeners or only had menial jobs. Arabs in Israel are treated equally. 95% of all pharmacists are Arabs; Arabs are doctors, nurses, brigadiers in the army, they have their own businesses and pay the same taxes. We recently had a huge renovation to our apartment. Our builders were Arabs. We had various quotes for carpentry, for the builders themselves, for the electrician etc. We chose the Arab companies – why? Easy – their work was top notch.
We are occupying Gaza. Gaza is NOT a part of Israel. We have not a legal responsibility to Gaza. We left Gaza in 2005. As a result they had "fair and open" elections. Hamas won. Hamas ran on the ticket that they would provide health services, they would build wealth for the Palestinians. The net result was yes they did provide some social benefits and they also built wealth for themselves. If you are gay then you can expect to be executed if you are caught. Tel Aviv is the gay capital of the world. Israel provides the infrastructure for the electricity. However, the Palestinians are supposed to pay for this. They haven't paid for quite a while. Listen to Joe Biden's speech last night when he said that it would not be a good idea for Israel to occupy Gaza AGAIN - affirming that we do not occupy Gaza.
+++
She went on to add:
Bibi's legacy is dead! He will be remembered as the power-mad egotist who fell asleep on his watch. He was so infatuated by the far, far right that the money that should have gone on defence, education and the health services here instead went on supporting his personal causes.
Israel is not an apartheid state. By definition this is a non-starter. 20% of its population is Arab, 80% Israeli. On the other hand, none of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, or Lebanon have any Jews. Why aren't the Arab nations welcoming their Palestinian brothers and sisters into their countries? And btw, the Palestinians elected Hamas in their elections and now cry "foul," hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 07:06:47 AM
Lies.
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/07/1003872848/the-complicated-history-behind-blms-solidarity-with-the-pro-palestinian-movement
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 02:45:18 PM
Israel is not an apartheid state. By definition this is a non-starter. 20% of its population is Arab, 80% Israeli.
Wut?
76% of South Africa was Black in 1990. Therefore, it wasn't an apartheid state. By definition.
Quote
On the other hand, none of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, or Lebanon have any Jews. Why aren't the Arab nations welcoming their Palestinian brothers and sisters into their countries, hey?
False.
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/the-arab-world-is-re-embracing-its-jews/21807243
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/diaspora-affairs/1691918153-the-first-rabbi-of-saudi-arabia-building-bridges-as-family-with-mutual-history
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 02:44:45 PM
it was a failed hamas rocket launch that caused it contrary (shock) to what hamas et.al. is reporting
Sure it was. Hamas is firing rockets into southern Gaza.
This was Hamas too, I'm sure.
https://time.com/6324775/hundreds-killed-israeli-airstrike-gaza-hospital/
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 02:50:41 PM
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/07/1003872848/the-complicated-history-behind-blms-solidarity-with-the-pro-palestinian-movement
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/20/viral-image/no-black-lives-matter-didnt-say-it-stands-hamas-te/
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Sure it was. Hamas is firing rockets into southern Gaza.
This was Hamas too, I'm sure.
https://time.com/6324775/hundreds-killed-israeli-airstrike-gaza-hospital/
when did you join hamas?
Israel said the hospital is not a target-it was a failed missile fired off by hamas from the hospital-classic-hamas will sacrafice(read, kill) it's own in order to TRY to gain sympathy
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 02:59:19 PM
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/20/viral-image/no-black-lives-matter-didnt-say-it-stands-hamas-te/
so there you have it...seriously?? politifart? that's like me trying to quote fox news to prove my points to you guys
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 03:05:23 PM
so there you have it...seriously?? politifart? that's like me trying to quote fox news to prove my points to you guys
You didn't read it, did you?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Sure it was. Hamas is firing rockets into southern Gaza.
This was Hamas too, I'm sure.
https://time.com/6324775/hundreds-killed-israeli-airstrike-gaza-hospital/
Thats 2 articles on the same incident.
And to be fair, I don't think there is any way the Gaza Health Ministry would own/blame a Hamas error or otherwise killing Palestinians in Gaza. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Gaza Health Ministry is actually be controlled by the government of Gaza, aka Hamas. This is different than the Ministry of Health which oversees all of Palestine.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 03:03:37 PM
when did you join hamas?
Israel said the hospital is not a target-it was a failed missile fired off by hamas from the hospital-classic-hamas will sacrafice(read, kill) it's own in order to TRY to gain sympathy
As of five days ago, the IDF already had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza (source: IDF). Figure thousands of more by now.
But when civilians die, it's because of Hamas rocket misfires.
That seems convenient.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 02:53:20 PM
Wut?
76% of South Africa was Black in 1990. Therefore, it wasn't an apartheid state. By definition.
False.
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/the-arab-world-is-re-embracing-its-jews/21807243
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/diaspora-affairs/1691918153-the-first-rabbi-of-saudi-arabia-building-bridges-as-family-with-mutual-history
Arabs in Israel are not segregated and are not deprived of political and civil rights, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:15:01 PM
As of five days ago, the IDF already had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza (source: IDF). Figure thousands of more by now.
But when civilians die, it's because of Hamas rocket misfires.
That seems convenient.
Dude, this is war. Israel told the inhabitants of Gaza to leave. Yes, chit happens in war, hey?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 17, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
Thats 2 articles on the same incident.
And to be fair, I don't think there is any way the Gaza Health Ministry would own/blame a Hamas error or otherwise killing Palestinians in Gaza. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Gaza Health Ministry is actually be controlled by the government of Gaza, aka Hamas. This is different than the Ministry of Health which oversees all of Palestine.
Sure.
And to be fair, I don't there is any way the IDF would own up to blowing up a hospital.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:15:01 PM
As of five days ago, the IDF already had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza (source: IDF). Figure thousands of more by now.
But when civilians die, it's because of Hamas rocket misfires.
That seems convenient.
We still talking about the hospital bombing that happened today, right? Convenient? You giving Hamas any benefit of the doubt??? Yeah, I suppose since everything they do is evil, they're bound to do ONE decent thing??by accident maybe what part of bad people don't you understand?
The leaders of Hamas have not protected their own people. Actually, it goes beyond that - they knowingly and unapologetically put their own people, including hundreds of thousands of innocent children under their watch, in grave danger.
They knew exactly how Israel would respond after they launched their attack last week, kidnapped people, and live-streamed executions of Israeli children. The cowards hide their weapons in hospitals and schools, hide their soldiers among civilians, dare the Israelis to risk the wrath of much of the outside world.
By their actions, Hamas leaders basically are saying, "We have absolutely no intention to protect our own children, so now it's up to Israel to protect our children - even as we gladly kill their children."
I know it's difficult for people to put themselves in others' shoes, and I know that some very smart and empathetic folks do not approve of some of Israel's actions over the past many decades. But those highly critical of Israel's actions right now - not past policy, but what's going on right now - might want to try to try Israeli shoes on today.
What would you expect from American leaders if we were attacked, your own children were put in harm's way, and our very existence as a people were threatened?
I am a pacifist, and I'm hardly an apologist for Israel. But Israel's gotta do what Israel's gotta do to protect its own people. Innocents will die, they always do in war. But it's hard for me to blame Israel for saying, "Better their innocents than our innocents."
Bravo Nads! Hopefully some here with John Lennon's "Imagine" swirling in their heads will start to see the light, aina?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 03:05:23 PM
so there you have it...seriously?? politifart? that's like me trying to quote fox news to prove my points to you guys
4.5 out of 10
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 03:03:37 PM
when did you join hamas?
Israel said the hospital is not a target-it was a failed missile fired off by hamas from the hospital-classic-hamas will sacrafice(read, kill) it's own in order to TRY to gain sympathy
3 out of 10
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:18:31 PM
Sure.
And to be fair, I don't there is any way the IDF would own up to blowing up a hospital.
So, seems like you are siding with Hamas on this event.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:18:31 PM
Sure.
And to be fair, I don't there is any way the IDF would own up to blowing up a hospital.
Thats fine. But throwing skepticism at the IDF statements (which is warranted), while taking Gaza Health Ministry statements or reports (about this or other incidents) as fact is just selective confirmation of competing PR departments.
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2023, 03:33:19 PM
I know it's difficult for people to put themselves in others' shoes, and I know that some very smart and empathetic folks do not approve of some of Israel's actions over the past many decades. But those highly critical of Israel's actions right now - not past policy, but what's going on right now - might want to try to try Israeli shoes on today.
What would you expect from American leaders if we were attacked, your own children were put in harm's way, and our very existence as a people were threatened?
I am a pacifist, and I'm hardly an apologist for Israel. But Israel's gotta do what Israel's gotta do to protect its own people. Innocents will die, they always do in war. But it's hard for me to blame Israel for saying, "Better their innocents than our innocents."
I've gone on record several times saying Israel has every right to defend itself and I hope they wipe out Hamas. And I blame Hamas for the latest round of violence.
That said, I'm not of the belief that killing civilians - and in some instances, taking steps to intentionally harm civilians - is OK. "Better their innocents than our innocents" is a false dilemma that presumes that Israel's only way to protect itself and eliminate Hamas is to kill innocents.
I'm not naive enough to not recognize that innocents will die during war. But I don't shrug my shoulders at it either and say "dems the breaks."
The killing of Palestinian kids shouldn't be any less horrific than the killing of Israeli kids. And, as long as we're trying on others' shoes, try on those of a Palestinian mother or father, who have nothing to do with Hamas, but just dragged their dead child out of the rubble of what was their home.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:18:31 PM
Sure.
And to be fair, I don't there is any way the IDF would own up to blowing up a hospital.
IDF has been neglected and neutered by Netanyahu, so I wouldn't be surprised if their effectiveness isn't sharp at the moment.
Its's a classic far right conundrum, attack the military and intelligence community weakening your nation and then having to rely on them to fix the problems you caused
I don't think anyone here doesn't this Israel has the right to go into Gaza and deal with Hamas right now. (Assuming they have a plan beyond carpet bombing everything - and I don't think that's the case.)
But they have to figure out how their response is going to impact their long-term strategy. Cause just levelling Gaza isn't going to work.
I don't know what those answers are, but fighting a perpetual war isn't going to work.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 17, 2023, 03:48:44 PM
Thats fine. But throwing skepticism at the IDF statements (which is warranted), while taking Gaza Health Ministry statements or reports (about this or other incidents) as fact is just selective confirmation of competing PR departments.
Right, that's why I said sure in response to your remark. I didn't mean that sarcastically.
I think both sides are motivated to lie and, to be cliche, the first casualty of war is ...
Perhaps IDF is correct. Perhaps not. Either way, the killing of hundreds of people at a hospital is horrific and shouldn't be casually dismissed, as one eloquent and empathetic Scooper put it, as "chit happens."
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 02:44:45 PM
it was a failed hamas rocket launch that caused it contrary (shock) to what hamas et.al. is reporting
Congrats on eating the spoonfed MSM that you so often decry.
Israel admitted it was themselves on twitter, and then deleted it.
https://twitter.com/m7mdkurd/status/1714378705982665027?s=46&t=Th1rNrDUI6VYr2yH1sH8Mg
Find the video from today with the audio and compare it to the sound of a JDAM missle. They're the same. Hamas doesn't have JDAMs, Israel does.
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714351075195515048?s=20
More investigation.
https://twitter.com/jesuslasupajew/status/1714376397844574405?s=19
https://twitter.com/shaun_vids/status/1714384749001666622
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2023, 03:33:19 PM
The leaders of Hamas have not protected their own people. Actually, it goes beyond that - they knowingly and unapologetically put their own people, including hundreds of thousands of innocent children under their watch, in grave danger.
They knew exactly how Israel would respond after they launched their attack last week, kidnapped people, and live-streamed executions of Israeli children. The cowards hide their weapons in hospitals and schools, hide their soldiers among civilians, dare the Israelis to risk the wrath of much of the outside world.
By their actions, Hamas leaders basically are saying, "We have absolutely no intention to protect our own children, so now it's up to Israel to protect our children - even as we gladly kill their children."
I know it's difficult for people to put themselves in others' shoes, and I know that some very smart and empathetic folks do not approve of some of Israel's actions over the past many decades. But those highly critical of Israel's actions right now - not past policy, but what's going on right now - might want to try to try Israeli shoes on today.
What would you expect from American leaders if we were attacked, your own children were put in harm's way, and our very existence as a people were threatened?
I am a pacifist, and I'm hardly an apologist for Israel. But Israel's gotta do what Israel's gotta do to protect its own people. Innocents will die, they always do in war. But it's hard for me to blame Israel for saying, "Better their innocents than our innocents."
Ty MU82 and thank your sis-in-law who knows what the F she's talking about. But it goes beyond your points here. Hamas INTENTIONALLY puts Palestinian children in harms way. That's a big part of their plan which is for them to die, show the photos, and for the world, AP, UN, Amnesty International, Pakumi, Forgetful, Fluffy, and others here to go apeshit on Israel.
Hamas is INTENTIONALLY headquartered with weapons under the hospital and schools. They are the total scum of the fking earth and controlled by Iran. So we can have little patty-cake so called "pacifists" here drivel about all sorts of myths, utter bull excrement, and other nonsense, but the truth is that Israel must protect herself and obliterate these assfks. And unfortunately that means innocent people will die.
As you stated if Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, or another terrorist group massacred 35,000+ Americans WTH do some here think we should do in that scenario? And honestly even if we had that horror it would still not be nearly as bad as what has happened to Israel when you consider the history of persecution culminating in the Holocaust. We must support 🇮🇱 and the 15 million Jews on the planet. They do not deserve the hate spewing all over the place which is beyond pathetic and embarrassing.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 04:12:50 PM
Ty MU82 and thank your sis-in-law who knows what the F she's talking about. But it goes beyond your points here. Hamas INTENTIONALLY puts Palestinian children in harms way. That's a big part of their plan which is for them to die, show the photos, and for the world, AP, UN, Amnesty International, Pakumi, Forgetful, Fluffy, and others here to go apecrap on Israel.
Hamas is INTENTIONALLY headquartered with weapons under the hospital and schools. They are the total scum of the fking earth and controlled by Iran. So we can have little patty-cake so called "pacifists" here drivel about all sorts of myths, utter bull excrement, and other nonsense, but the truth is that Israel must protect herself and obliterate these assfks. And unfortunately that means innocent people will die.
As you stated if Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, or another terrorist group massacred 35,000+ Americans WTH do some here think we should do in that scenario? And honestly even if we had that horror it would still not be nearly as bad as what has happened to Israel when you consider the history of persecution culminating in the Holocaust. We must support 🇮🇱 and the 15 million Jews on the planet. They do not deserve the hate spewing all over the place which is beyond pathetic and embarrassing.
Killing civilians is cool by you. Good to know.
Sorry but the "history of persecution culminating in the Holocaust" can't be used as some sort of trump card to justify Israeli actions.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:18:21 PM
Killing civilians is cool by you. Good to know.
Depends which civilians.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:02:03 PM
Congrats on eating the spoonfed MSM that you so often decry.
Israel admitted it was themselves on twitter, and then deleted it.
https://twitter.com/m7mdkurd/status/1714378705982665027?s=46&t=Th1rNrDUI6VYr2yH1sH8Mg
"Congrats on eating the spoonfed MSM"...then posts something about/from a non-official Facebook account that was deleted, likely due to terms of use violations about impersonation. While the actual Arabic IDF page still exists. Thats in the same vein as that dipshit BLM Chicago account from last week.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:18:21 PM
Killing civilians is cool by you. Good to know.
Ya...that's exactly what I wrote.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:18:21 PM
Killing civilians is cool by you. Good to know.
If you say a couple of Hail Mary's, I think it's ok
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 17, 2023, 04:18:38 PM
Sorry but the "history of persecution culminating in the Holocaust" can't be used as some sort of trump card to justify Israeli actions.
Again Fluffy, that's not what I stated. I posited that in light of their history, a scenario in the United States of that magnitude wouldn't be as horrific or impactful. All you need to know is how quickly the government and people unified there.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:02:03 PM
Congrats on eating the spoonfed MSM that you so often decry.
Israel admitted it was themselves on twitter, and then deleted it.
https://twitter.com/m7mdkurd/status/1714378705982665027?s=46&t=Th1rNrDUI6VYr2yH1sH8Mg
Find the video from today with the audio and compare it to the sound of a JDAM missle. They're the same. Hamas doesn't have JDAMs, Israel does.
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714351075195515048?s=20
More investigation.
https://twitter.com/jesuslasupajew/status/1714376397844574405?s=19
https://twitter.com/shaun_vids/status/1714384749001666622
ok yousef
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 04:30:23 PM
Again Fluffy, that's not what I stated. I posited that in light of their history, a scenario in the United States of that magnitude wouldn't be as horrific or impactful. All you need to know is how quickly the government and people unified there.
When you say "if Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, or another terrorist group massacred 35,000+ Americans WTH do some here think we should do in that scenario?" it certainly seems like you are trying to justify actions.
Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with Israel defending itself. However that doesn't mean that their actions cannot be questioned. In fact, I think a little more questioning of our own actions would have been smart in our response to 9/11 don't you think? Because we ended up getting bogged down in conflicts that killed a lot of people, and ended up not meeting any of our long-term strategic goals anyway.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 17, 2023, 04:21:35 PM
"Congrats on eating the spoonfed MSM"...then posts something about/from a non-official Facebook account that was deleted, likely due to terms of use violations about impersonation. While the actual Arabic IDF page still exists. Thats in the same vein as that dipcrap BLM Chicago account from last week.
Sounds good. I can retract that portion if you'd like. Deal with the rest though. Israel denies it despite the size of the explosion. It's lies.
The rockets that Hamas uses doesn't have the ability to destroy a hospital.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 17, 2023, 04:36:35 PM
When you say "if Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, or another terrorist group massacred 35,000+ Americans WTH do some here think we should do in that scenario?" it certainly seems like you are trying to justify actions.
Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with Israel defending itself. However that doesn't mean that their actions cannot be questioned. In fact, I think a little more questioning of our own actions would have been smart in our response to 9/11 don't you think? Because we ended up getting bogged down in conflicts that killed a lot of people, and ended up not meeting any of our long-term strategic goals anyway.
Because if I again point out, that I think Hamas was prodded by Iran to do this to scuttle a peace deal with Saudi Arabia. A shitshow of a response by Israel, could set that back years if not decades - and could jeopardize ones in place with UAE, Jordan and Egypt.
So Israel DOES have to be careful with its response. Not just for the sake of not killing innocents, but because it might ruin its chance for more regional stability.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 04:30:45 PM
ok yousef
What would you call it if someone responded to one of Doc's posts with "ok moshe"?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 17, 2023, 04:36:35 PM
When you say "if Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, or another terrorist group massacred 35,000+ Americans WTH do some here think we should do in that scenario?" it certainly seems like you are trying to justify actions.
Anyway, I have absolutely no problem with Israel defending itself. However that doesn't mean that their actions cannot be questioned. In fact, I think a little more questioning of our own actions would have been smart in our response to 9/11 don't you think? Because we ended up getting bogged down in conflicts that killed a lot of people, and ended up not meeting any of our long-term strategic goals anyway.
It's about understanding that they can't respond without destroying Hamas at minimum. It you don't accept that, and what that will unfortunately take, then you're failing to comprehend basic reality.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:36:50 PM
Sounds good. I can retract that portion if you'd like. Deal with the rest though. Israel denies it despite the size of the explosion. It's lies.
The rockets that Hamas uses doesn't have the ability to destroy a hospital.
For arguments sake, what if a rocket hits a building with a bunch of other rockets and ammunition in it? It wouldn't be the first time Hamas has misfired a rocket back into Gaza or that they stored weapons and ammunition in a hospital.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 04:43:28 PM
What would you call it if someone responded to one of Doc's posts with "ok moshe"?
Perhaps we should use him as inspiration and start counting the number of Islamophobic dentists here. There's at least 2!
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 04:45:26 PM
It's about understanding that they can't respond without destroying Hamas at minimum. It you don't accept that, and what that will unfortunately take, then you're failing to comprehend basic reality.
Because they aren't going to "destroy" Hamas - or at least not do it without killing thousands of civilians. They can most definitely severely limit them by killing their leadership as well as destroying their arms.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 17, 2023, 04:45:57 PM
For arguments sake, what if a rocket hits a building with a bunch of other rockets and ammunition in it? It wouldn't be the first time Hamas has misfired a rocket back into Gaza or that they stored weapons and ammunition in a hospital.
Boy that sure would be a very interesting coincidence. The hypothesis here is that the rocket misfires, and then turns around and lands exactly in an ammo/rocket depot is?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 05:08:36 PM
Boy that sure would be a very interesting coincidence. The hypothesis here is that the rocket misfires, and then turns around and lands exactly in an ammo/rocket depot is?
Sounds like you want it to be Israel's fault. When choosing between the IDF version or the Hamas version, I choose IDF.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 17, 2023, 05:10:13 PM
Sounds like you want it to be Israel's fault. When choosing between the IDF version or the Hamas version, I choose IDF.
Or maybe these things don't require an immediate "take" right now.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:10:02 PM
You didn't read it, did you?
Of course he didn't. And he didn't read the direct statement from BLM. Facts would just clutter his beautiful mind.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 17, 2023, 05:16:58 PM
Or maybe these things don't require an immediate "take" right now.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 17, 2023, 05:10:13 PM
Sounds like you want it to be Israel's fault. When choosing between the IDF version or the Hamas version, I choose IDF.
I'm not sure where you're inferring that from. Personally, they both have behaved poorly, historically. I have no dog in any of this fight. I just want the fighting to end.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 05:29:57 PM
I'm not sure where you're inferring that from. Personally, they both have behaved poorly, historically. I have no dog in any of this fight. I just want the fighting to end.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 17, 2023, 05:16:58 PM
Or maybe these things don't require an immediate "take" right now.
That's sort of where I am. My reply was just countering what Hards was stating as absolute fact.
You have a statement from IDF. Then you have a statement from Gaza Health Ministry (Hamas), lots of reporting from Al-Jazeera which happens to be owned by the Middle Eastern government that harbors the heads of Hamas, and then a bunch of random faceless Twitter accounts who are experts in military video assessment, both for and against either side.
I think it's worth noting that now this is a full scale military engagement. This isn't IDF/Israeli government harassing random Palestinians in their daily lives. Yes it's horrific that there are Palestinians caught in between, but right now this is Hamas versus Israel.
Why is this relevant? Because it's 2023 and a huge element of the war is it's coverage and media. Hamas isn't some plucky band of rebels. They have resources and backing, that every day Gazans don't have, to push information, narratives, PR as it suits them and their goals. So this idea that there is just some complete media bias towards Israel and won't someone speak up for the Palestinian cause here isn't exactly accurate at this point.
Also, it's been repeated ad nauseum, but I always keep worth keeping in mind that Hamas couldn't care less about civilians and has everything to gain from their death. And that's not a defense of Israel, it's just an unfortunate fact of the plight of Palestinians
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 17, 2023, 05:24:27 PM
Of course he didn't. And he didn't read the direct statement from BLM. Facts would just clutter his beautiful mind.
what the f...yes i did...blm and hamas think alike but then when blm figured their old marketing plan, p!ssing on israel wasn't good for biness, they better change their tune...quickly as they did and you guys gobbled up their mea culpa like minnesota fats coming off his carb free diet
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 06:12:32 PM
what the f...yes i did...blm and hamas think alike but then when blm figured their old marketing plan, p!ssing on israel wasn't good for biness, they better change their tune...quickly as they did and you guys gobbled up their mea culpa like minnesota fats coming off his carb free diet
8 out of 10
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 17, 2023, 05:31:51 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Bingo, it won't end until Hamas no longer exists, aina?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 04:43:28 PM
What would you call it if someone responded to one of Doc's posts with "ok moshe"?
Ewe kan just shortin it up ta just Moish, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 17, 2023, 06:23:27 PM
Bingo, it won't end until Hamas no longer exists, aina?
We'll all be dead before that happens
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 17, 2023, 04:42:08 PM
Because if I again point out, that I think Hamas was prodded by Iran to do this to scuttle a peace deal with Saudi Arabia. A crapshow of a response by Israel, could set that back years if not decades - and could jeopardize ones in place with UAE, Jordan and Egypt.
So Israel DOES have to be careful with its response. Not just for the sake of not killing innocents, but because it might ruin its chance for more regional stability.
I agree with this analysis. The last thing Iran wants in the Middle East is the peace deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia. The horrific attack from Hamas was an attempt to provoke Israel. It did, as it would any country. It's a no win situation for Israel, so I guess they feel they have to go after Hamas first and worry about the rest of the region's reaction later.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 17, 2023, 06:12:32 PM
what the f...yes i did...blm and hamas think alike but then when blm figured their old marketing plan, p!ssing on israel wasn't good for biness, they better change their tune...quickly as they did and you guys gobbled up their mea culpa like minnesota fats coming off his carb free diet
Dentist: blm is antisemtic
Pak: No, that isn't true, here's a link to the facts
Smith: No, that isn't true, those are fake, right-wing accounts posting disinformation. Here is BLM's direct statement
Dentist:...blm is antisemetic
BLM: "BLM Chicago is just some guy using our name. We do not support Hamas"
Dentist: blm is antisemetic!
Quote from: JWags85 on October 17, 2023, 04:21:35 PM
"Congrats on eating the spoonfed MSM"...then posts something about/from a non-official Facebook account that was deleted, likely due to terms of use violations about impersonation. While the actual Arabic IDF page still exists. Thats in the same vein as that dipcrap BLM Chicago account from last week.
https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1714400598991261966
Professor Russell Rickford still has his job at Cornell for some reason. We're learning that our elite universities have some severe problems.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:49:16 PM
I've gone on record several times saying Israel has every right to defend itself and I hope they wipe out Hamas. And I blame Hamas for the latest round of violence.
That said, I'm not of the belief that killing civilians - and in some instances, taking steps to intentionally harm civilians - is OK. "Better their innocents than our innocents" is a false dilemma that presumes that Israel's only way to protect itself and eliminate Hamas is to kill innocents.
I'm not naive enough to not recognize that innocents will die during war. But I don't shrug my shoulders at it either and say "dems the breaks."
The killing of Palestinian kids shouldn't be any less horrific than the killing of Israeli kids. And, as long as we're trying on others' shoes, try on those of a Palestinian mother or father, who have nothing to do with Hamas, but just dragged their dead child out of the rubble of what was their home.
I neither said nor implied that I am "OK" with "intentionally harming civilians." Of course, intentionally harming civilians is something Hamas does as a way of life ... and it was something they provoked, against their own people, with their attack on Israel. I wish no innocents had to die at the hands of either side, but innocents
do die during wars; it's a fact you have acknowledged.
You keep saying you hope Israel wipes out Hamas. Given the battleground Hamas has chosen -- hiding amongst civilians, hiding arms in hospitals and schools, etc -- how do you propose Israel do that while not hurting any innocent Palestinians?
War sucks, and I sure as sh!t don't have all the answers.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 09:43:33 PM
Professor Russell Rickford still has his job at Cornell for some reason. We're learning that our elite universities have some severe problems.
We're just going to expand your plan and have Liam Neeson go and take all of them out as well.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 17, 2023, 09:52:16 PM
We're just going to expand your plan and have Liam Neeson go and take all of them out as well.
Maybe some of the Cornell students would find that "exhilarating".
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 09:43:33 PM
Professor Russell Rickford still has his job at Cornell for some reason. We're learning that our elite universities have some severe problems.
His remarks were gross. They are also free speech. If they were to fire him, he would likely have grounds for a lawsuit and he would likely win. Do you want him to get paid millions of dollars for making gross remarks?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 09:54:37 PM
Maybe some of the Cornell students would find that "exhilarating".
You certainly would
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 17, 2023, 09:57:05 PM
His remarks were gross. They are also free speech. If they were to fire him, he would likely have grounds for a lawsuit and he would likely win. Do you want him to get paid millions of dollars for making gross remarks?
Ya...I keep hearing that from the Ivy Presidents. The problem is we all know damn well if there were remarks from professors or students on a plethora of other topics they would be gone in like 10 minutes.
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2023, 09:48:44 PM
I neither said nor implied that I am "OK" with "intentionally harming civilians."
I neither said nor implied that you do. I said I'm not OK with that. Nothing about you.
But what did you mean when wrote "better their innocents than our innocents?"
Quote
You keep saying you hope Israel wipes out Hamas. Given the battleground Hamas has chosen -- hiding amongst civilians, hiding arms in hospitals and schools, etc -- how do you propose Israel do that while not hurting any innocent Palestinians?
Well, as you note, I acknowledged that civilians will be killed. So, your question confuses me.
But I also acknowledge a difference between inadvertant civilian casualties and those that result from indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment. The justness of the Israeli cause - and I agree it is just - does not justify any means.
Should a school or hospital packed with children be blown up because Hamas might also have weapons inside?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 10:00:22 PM
Ya...I keep hearing that from the Ivy Presidents. The problem is we all know damn well if there were remarks from professors or students on a plethora of other topics they would be gone in like 10 minutes.
Citation needed.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 17, 2023, 05:36:12 PM
That's sort of where I am. My reply was just countering what Hards was stating as absolute fact.
You have a statement from IDF. Then you have a statement from Gaza Health Ministry (Hamas), lots of reporting from Al-Jazeera which happens to be owned by the Middle Eastern government that harbors the heads of Hamas, and then a bunch of random faceless Twitter accounts who are experts in military video assessment, both for and against either side.
I think it's worth noting that now this is a full scale military engagement. This isn't IDF/Israeli government harassing random Palestinians in their daily lives. Yes it's horrific that there are Palestinians caught in between, but right now this is Hamas versus Israel.
Why is this relevant? Because it's 2023 and a huge element of the war is it's coverage and media. Hamas isn't some plucky band of rebels. They have resources and backing, that every day Gazans don't have, to push information, narratives, PR as it suits them and their goals. So this idea that there is just some complete media bias towards Israel and won't someone speak up for the Palestinian cause here isn't exactly accurate at this point.
I agree with most of your post. One thing is definitely true, whoever bombed the hospital will deny it and use their media sources to cover it up and blame the other side.
Watching the videos that have been released, they do not appear to be consistent with a failed rocket launch.
If you forced me to make a guess right now. Hamas or other affiliated terrorist groups fired a rocket from/near the hospital. Israel responded with a strike.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 17, 2023, 10:00:22 PM
Ya...I keep hearing that from the Ivy Presidents. The problem is we all know damn well if there were remarks from professors or students on a plethora of other topics they would be gone in like 10 minutes.
That's simply not true. I work in this area. We get complaints all the time about professors saying things that are conservative (I assume that's what you mean by "plethora of other topics") and 100% of them are still employed, even some that have said some truly despicable things. Honestly, the only areas where I do so professors getting fired for free speech is liberal professors at conservative religious universities (they typically have a little more latitude to police the speech of their employees when it contradicts religious values).
But I'm open to being proven wrong. Do you have any examples of Ivy League professors or students "being gone in ten minutes" for "remarks on a plethora of other topics"?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:36:50 PM
Sounds good. I can retract that portion if you'd like. Deal with the rest though. Israel denies it despite the size of the explosion. It's lies.
The rockets that Hamas uses doesn't have the ability to destroy a hospital.
so now you are a munitions expert on hamas weaponry? you sure that big "H" on your sweaty t-shirt stands for hardy?
well your esteemed leader, before having his first ben & jerry's, concludes the hospital carnage is from hamas misfired(or not) rocket.
they have audio, video and satellite imagery to prove this. if it were from IDF, there would have been far more damage, cratering etc this has all the evidence of a failed rocket launch that fell from the sky and blew up
hate to ruin your "exhilaration"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-18/ty-article-live/israeli-army-blames-islamic-jihad-for-hitting-gaza-hospital-in-deadly-strike/0000018b-40a6-d881-abab-edae5c5d0000
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 18, 2023, 06:59:05 AM
so now you are a munitions expert on hamas weaponry? you sure that big "H" on your sweaty t-shirt stands for hardy?
well your esteemed leader, before having his first ben & jerry's, concludes the hospital carnage is from hamas misfired(or not) rocket.
they have audio, video and satellite imagery to prove this. if it were from IDF, there would have been far more damage, cratering etc this has all the evidence of a failed rocket launch that fell from the sky and blew up
hate to ruin your "exhilaration"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-18/ty-article-live/israeli-army-blames-islamic-jihad-for-hitting-gaza-hospital-in-deadly-strike/0000018b-40a6-d881-abab-edae5c5d0000
9 out of 10
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 18, 2023, 05:54:46 AM
That's simply not true. I work in this area. We get complaints all the time about professors saying things that are conservative (I assume that's what you mean by "plethora of other topics") and 100% of them are still employed, even some that have said some truly despicable things. Honestly, the only areas where I do so professors getting fired for free speech is liberal professors at conservative religious universities (they typically have a little more latitude to police the speech of their employees when it contradicts religious values).
But I'm open to being proven wrong. Do you have any examples of Ivy League professors or students "being gone in ten minutes" for "remarks on a plethora of other topics"?
First of all how many conservative professors do you think there are in the Ivy League total? Maybe 50? Fewer? People don't want to lose their job. Are you telling me if a protest about gender pronouns being stupid was organized at Harvard no one would be dismissed? Or a rally against Ibram Kendi and the BLM organization?
Citations.
https://x.com/talhagin/status/1714416463136559592?s=46&t=1Ze0JY8Fq6WBgNZAVe9m3Q
Seems to be a pretty fair analysis. Not sure how after watching the live AJ video feed one can't conclude there was a failed rocket launch over the site of the eventual hospital fire.
Morning photos show zero evidence of a crater that I expected to see, unless I'm missed it somewhere.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 07:15:16 AM
First of all how many conservative professors do you think there are in the Ivy League total? Maybe 50? Fewer? People don't want to lose their job. Are you telling me if a protest about gender pronouns being stupid was organized at Harvard no one would be dismissed? Or a rally against Ibram Kendi and the BLM organization?
I mean, TAMU works in higher education and deals with these issues on a daily basis, what would he know?
Well, its been pontificated here repeatedly that some of us no nothin' 'bout da professions in which we've worked for yeers, aina?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 18, 2023, 06:59:05 AM
so now you are a munitions expert on hamas weaponry? you sure that big "H" on your sweaty t-shirt stands for hardy?
well your esteemed leader, before having his first ben & jerry's, concludes the hospital carnage is from hamas misfired(or not) rocket.
they have audio, video and satellite imagery to prove this. if it were from IDF, there would have been far more damage, cratering etc this has all the evidence of a failed rocket launch that fell from the sky and blew up
hate to ruin your "exhilaration"
Rocket, Hards has been studin' for a long tyme ta reach da "all knowin'" level of Fluffy BM and falls just a tad short, aina?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-18/ty-article-live/israeli-army-blames-islamic-jihad-for-hitting-gaza-hospital-in-deadly-strike/0000018b-40a6-d881-abab-edae5c5d0000
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 07:27:50 AM
Well, its been pontificated here repeatedly that some of us no nothin' 'bout da professions in which we've worked for yeers, aina?
We know the poor right wingers have no free speech and have to live their lives muzzled.
Checks notes. Sees they spent the summer attacking rainbow flags, Bud Light, Target and their leading young intellect, prominent right winger Charlie Kirk, is just asking questions about whether Netanyahu allowed the attack to happen to help him and is still grifting away and collecting checks.
Yes, TAMU is obviously wrong. The right definitely has nowhere for free speech and would lose campus jobs.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 07:27:50 AM
Well, its been pontificated here repeatedly that some of us no nothin' 'bout da professions in which we've worked for yeers, aina?
False narrative. No one says you don't know teeth.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 18, 2023, 07:23:34 AM
I mean, TAMU works in higher education and deals with these issues on a daily basis, what would he know?
. Summers I believe waa dismissed as president for saying men were better in math. There are almost no conservative voices in the faculty of Ivy League schools. Student surveys show many are afraid to voice their opinions at Harvard. If I was a prof at an Ivy and said publicly thaf George Floyd was a criminal and I was "exhilarated" when he died there is a 0.0% chance I wouldn't be fired immediately. If you have seen sone of the things this guy at Cornell has been spewing for years it's disgusting and I'm guessing this isn't all that unusual.
All you really need to know are the three statements the Harvard President made after essentially 30 student organizations supported Hamas.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 10:08:00 PM
I neither said nor implied that you do. I said I'm not OK with that. Nothing about you.
But what did you mean when wrote "better their innocents than our innocents?"
What I actually said was: "It's hard for me to blame Israel for saying, "Better their innocents than our innocents."
Which undoubtedly is what Israel is thinking.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 10:08:00 PM
Well, as you note, I acknowledged that civilians will be killed. So, your question confuses me.
But I also acknowledge a difference between inadvertant civilian casualties and those that result from indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment. The justness of the Israeli cause - and I agree it is just - does not justify any means.
Should a school or hospital packed with children be blown up because Hamas might also have weapons inside?
I simply do not have enough knowledge about how to eradicate - not just defeat, but eliminate - a terrorist group like Hamas, which hides among its civilians and which hides its weapons in hospitals and mosques and schools, without there being loss of civilian lives.
Do you have that knowledge?
I like to think Israel isn't doing "indiscriminate bombing" just for the sake of it. I like to think they are being as tactically precise as possible - bombing only where they are sure Hamas is. But even the best weapon systems out there can't be so precise to spare all innocents.
So those innocents will be war victims, as innocents were in Hawaii in 1941 and in Hiroshima in 1945 and in Vietnam in 1967 and in Iraq in 2003 and in Israel last week and in every war before and since and in the future. It doesn't make it "OK," it's just stating a fact.
So no, I'd 100% rather Israel not blow up a hospital or school just because they think there might be weapons inside. I'm simply trying to be realistic. When one side cowardly hides behind children, some children will die. I wish like hell that wasn't so.
Lastly, Pak, let me say that I appreciate the civil tone of our conversation. This is a very complex and emotional issue, and an extremely sad one. It's easy to go over the top, as some others have done. So thanks.
Hate to break up the argument about politics in universities, but more hospital updates this morning...
https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600?s=46
https://x.com/i24news_en/status/1714567891662573942?s=46
The Foundation for Individual Rights anr Expression (FIRE) named Harvard the worst school in the country for Free Speech. Penn was 2nd.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 18, 2023, 08:28:27 AM
Hate to break up the argument about politics in universities, but more hospital updates this morning...
https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600?s=46
https://x.com/i24news_en/status/1714567891662573942?s=46
Politics at universities is how the world will finally solve a problem that has befuddled it since the beginning of time.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 08:10:53 AM
. Summers I believe waa dismissed as president for saying men were better in math. There are almost no conservative voices in the faculty of Ivy League schools. Student surveys show many are afraid to voice their opinions at Harvard. If I was a prof at an Ivy and said publicly thaf George Floyd was a criminal and I was "exhilarated" when he died there is a 0.0% chance I wouldn't be fired immediately. If you have seen sone of the things this guy at Cornell has been spewing for years it's disgusting and I'm guessing this isn't all that unusual.
You can keep saying things, but that doesn't make them come to life as truths.
Yes academia is more liberal than the general population. However there are plenty of conservative professors, and they are afforded the same rights as the liberal ones.
You are just wrong here.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 07:15:16 AM
First of all how many conservative professors do you think there are in the Ivy League total? Maybe 50? Fewer?
I think a "conservative" estimate (see what I did there?) would be about 400 per institution. A definite minority but the population is not as homogenous as you are claiming.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 07:15:16 AM
Fewer? People don't want to lose their job. Are you telling me if a protest about gender pronouns being stupid was organized at Harvard no one would be dismissed? Or a rally against Ibram Kendi and the BLM organization?
That's exactly what I'm telling you. Across the country there are thousands examples of students and professors engaging in free speech in support of conservative positions (and thousands more engaging in free speech that some would call hateful) every day and none of them are getting disciplined for it. Same is true for the opposite side of the political spectrum. In the vast vast vast majority of cases, Universities don't punish people for engaging in protected speech, the few that do are quickly reprimanded.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 08:10:53 AM
. Summers I believe waa dismissed as president for saying men were better in math. There are almost no conservative voices in the faculty of Ivy League schools. Student surveys show many are afraid to voice their opinions at Harvard. If I was a prof at an Ivy and said publicly thaf George Floyd was a criminal and I was "exhilarated" when he died there is a 0.0% chance I wouldn't be fired immediately. If you have seen sone of the things this guy at Cornell has been spewing for years it's disgusting and I'm guessing this isn't all that unusual.
Summers wasn't dismissed. He resigned. His comments on women in stem were a part of the reason he resigned but IIRC he had been involved with a lawsuit that cost Harvard something like $25million and that was the bigger reason for his resignation.
If a professor at a public protest said that George Floyd was a criminal and they were exhilarated when he died, that would be free speech and they would not be terminated for it. If they were, they would likely have grounds for a lawsuit. What would likely happen is that the university would put out a statement condemning the professor's words. I wonder if that happened at Cornell....
https://statements.cornell.edu/2023/20231017-rickford-comments.cfm
It looks like they are going to try to find a way to get rid of Rickford.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 08:29:15 AM
The Foundation for Individual Rights anr Expression (FIRE) named Harvard the worst school in the country for Free Speech. Penn was 2nd.
I couldn't care less what FIRE has to say. They are not a credible organization.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 08:10:53 AM
. Summers I believe waa dismissed as president for saying men were better in math. There are almost no conservative voices in the faculty of Ivy League schools. Student surveys show many are afraid to voice their opinions at Harvard. If I was a prof at an Ivy and said publicly thaf George Floyd was a criminal and I was "exhilarated" when he died there is a 0.0% chance I wouldn't be fired immediately. If you have seen sone of the things this guy at Cornell has been spewing for years it's disgusting and I'm guessing this isn't all that unusual.
I mean you're just wrong on a number of fronts here. It would helpful if you stopped talking out of your a$$.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 18, 2023, 08:28:27 AM
Hate to break up the argument about politics in universities, but more hospital updates this morning...
https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600?s=46
https://x.com/i24news_en/status/1714567891662573942?s=46
I'm not sure who was responsible. But the language of "appears" and the lack of major damage are not that convincing.
I find it hard to believe, that with all the technology being used on that region right now, that there isn't definitive evidence from either Israeli, or US intelligence as to what actually happened. It is possible they are not showing that evidence, because they don't want to give up methods and operational capacity, but what they have presented isn't very convincing.
Quote from: forgetful on October 18, 2023, 09:01:21 AM
I'm not sure who was responsible. But the language of "appears" and the lack of major damage are not that convincing.
I find it hard to believe, that with all the technology being used on that region right now, that there isn't definitive evidence from either Israeli, or US intelligence as to what actually happened. It is possible they are not showing that evidence, because they don't want to give up methods and operational capacity, but what they have presented isn't very convincing.
Here is more aerial footage showing and the thread has good information...
https://x.com/oalexanderdk/status/1714521111839359179?s=46
Everyone yesterday, including Hards, was saying it was clearly a JDAM which only Israel could have. Yet the footage and evidence today shows it could not have been a JDAM.
And if the IDF was really truly trying to wipe out a hospital, they wouldn't hit the parking lot.
It's not definitive evidence, but it's also interesting that various Twitter accounts that were tweeting multiples times yesterday condemning Israel or calling out the IDF for such an atrocity have been completely silent on everything related to the incident this morning. I know of at least 3 accounts from media adjacent people that deleted a bunch of tweets already since last night
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 18, 2023, 08:51:54 AM
I mean you're just wrong on a number of fronts here. It would helpful if you stopped talking out of your a$$.
And when asked for the source of his claims, he simply points to his ass
So to recap ...
We've got a bunch of folks with little to no knowledge speculating from thousands of miles away based on limited evidence.
Can't beat that for fun.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 18, 2023, 10:14:36 AM
And when asked for the source of his claims, he simply points to his ass
Seriously, he just mimics talking points. And talking points about Ivy League schools as if they are somehow representative of higher education across the country.
After working 30 years in higher education, here are my thoughts.
1. Most students are in school to have some fun and get out with a job.
2. Most faculty are on the liberal side, but rarely do they insert political opinions into their classroom.
3. 1% of the students and faculty are the ones who draw 99% of the headlines. Most don't want to make waves or don't care at all.
I think people like Muggs would find attending school now to be remarkably similar to what it was like at Marquette.
Marquette is not what it was 30 years ago either. Sprinkle in some improvements and blend it with some negatives, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 10:23:46 AM
Marquette is not what it was 30 years ago either. Sprinkle in some improvements and blend it with some negatives, aina?
Nah. Less priests walking around and some newer buildings, but by and large it's the same place.
Quote from: MU82 on October 18, 2023, 10:17:02 AM
So to recap ...
We've got a bunch of folks with little to no knowledge speculating from thousands of miles away based on limited evidence.
Can't beat that for fun.
We'll solve this whole mess any day now, 82.
So, you don't think the transition from Raynor, all the way thru Lovell, the first lay president, hasn't changed MU's culture and identity? I emphatically say you are wrong, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 10:29:55 AM
So, you don't think the transition from Raynor, all the way thru Lovell, the first lay president, hasn't changed MU's culture and identity? I emphatically say you are wrong, hey?
Well, Raynor wasn't President 30 years ago. But yes, it is largely the same school, and you are exaggerating the extent of any changes that have taken place.
Respectfully disagree, and if its too hard for you to say it. I'll help out. MU is a lot more liberal than it was back in the day. That is obvious to anyone who pays attention, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 10:23:46 AM
Marquette is not what it was 30 years ago either. Sprinkle in some improvements and blend it with some negatives, aina?
Campus is much nicer and safer, for one thing.
All of which has so much to do with "Israel is at War."
Quote from: Pakuni on October 18, 2023, 10:27:48 AM
We'll solve this whole mess any day now, 82.
We got this, Pak!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 10:37:41 AM
Respectfully disagree, and if its too hard for you to say it. I'll help out. MU is a lot more liberal than it was back in the day. That is obvious to anyone who pays attention, hey?
I don't know how liberal it was then or how liberal it is now. As a student, it seemed pretty apolitical. As a parent, the same. As an alum, the same.
You are just highly attuned to fighting culture wars that 95% of people don't care about.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 18, 2023, 10:44:01 AM
I don't know how liberal it was then or how liberal it is now. As a student, it seemed pretty apolitical. As a parent, the same. As an alum, the same.
You are just highly attuned to fighting culture wars that 95% of people don't care about.
They got rid of Indian mascot!
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 18, 2023, 10:49:04 AM
They got rid of Indian mascot!
Well, as of last week, that was more than 30 years ago too.
Can we keep this thread on topic? At least the previous detours had SOMETHING to do with the conflict
From NYT:
U.S. officials said early intelligence indicated that the deadly blast at a Gaza hospital that killed hundreds of civilians on Tuesday was caused by a Palestinian armed group.
The officials cautioned that the analysis was preliminary and that the United States was continuing to collect and analyze evidence.
Quote from: MU82 on October 18, 2023, 10:17:02 AM
So to recap ...
We've got a bunch of folks with little to no knowledge speculating from thousands of miles away based on limited evidence.
Can't beat that for fun.
Well personally, I think you are giving us too much benefit of the doubt when you say "limited evidence." Personally, I think it is just pure speculation.
I will say though, that there is surprisingly little information coming out from any side on the hospital bombing.
That might be because (quoting a military friend right now), "it's an absolute shitshow over there right now."
Quote from: MU82 on October 18, 2023, 11:12:11 AM
From NYT:
U.S. officials said early intelligence indicated that the deadly blast at a Gaza hospital that killed hundreds of civilians on Tuesday was caused by a Palestinian armed group.
The officials cautioned that the analysis was preliminary and that the United States was continuing to collect and analyze evidence.
Waiting for the experts (Pakuni, Hards) to weigh in
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 18, 2023, 11:29:40 AM
Waiting for the experts (Pakuni, Hards) to weigh in
What I wrote yesterday:
"Perhaps IDF is correct. Perhaps not. Either way, the killing of hundreds of people at a hospital is horrific and shouldn't be casually dismissed, as one eloquent and empathetic Scooper put it, as 'chit happens.'"
I do think another interesting aspect is that with pictures coming out of the site this morning, that 500 dead figure seems awfully high/incorrect.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Sure it was. Hamas is firing rockets into southern Gaza.
This was Hamas too, I'm sure.
https://time.com/6324775/hundreds-killed-israeli-airstrike-gaza-hospital/
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 03:15:01 PM
As of five days ago, the IDF already had dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza (source: IDF). Figure thousands of more by now.
But when civilians die, it's because of Hamas rocket misfires.
That seems convenient.
So, you were wrong? Which time?
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 18, 2023, 12:17:55 PM
So, you were wrong? Which time?
My first comment was in regards to this incident in southern Gaza, not the hospital in northern Gaza (hence my reference to southern Gaza).
And it wasn't Hamas who hit the hospital. All sides agree on that.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252
Quote from: JWags85 on October 18, 2023, 09:11:43 AM
Here is more aerial footage showing and the thread has good information...
https://x.com/oalexanderdk/status/1714521111839359179?s=46
Everyone yesterday, including Hards, was saying it was clearly a JDAM which only Israel could have. Yet the footage and evidence today shows it could not have been a JDAM.
And if the IDF was really truly trying to wipe out a hospital, they wouldn't hit the parking lot.
It's not definitive evidence, but it's also interesting that various Twitter accounts that were tweeting multiples times yesterday condemning Israel or calling out the IDF for such an atrocity have been completely silent on everything related to the incident this morning. I know of at least 3 accounts from media adjacent people that deleted a bunch of tweets already since last night
IDF are clearly a trustworthy source, having never have lied before. ;)
Quote from: MU82 on October 18, 2023, 11:12:11 AM
From NYT:
U.S. officials said early intelligence indicated that the deadly blast at a Gaza hospital that killed hundreds of civilians on Tuesday was caused by a Palestinian armed group.
The officials cautioned that the analysis was preliminary and that the United States was continuing to collect and analyze evidence.
It would have been nice if the NYT and major media outlets actually waited for this to be investigated/confirmed yesterday instead of believing Hamas immediately.
Quote from: MU82 on October 18, 2023, 11:12:11 AM
From NYT:
U.S. officials said early intelligence indicated that the deadly blast at a Gaza hospital that killed hundreds of civilians on Tuesday was caused by a Palestinian armed group.
The officials cautioned that the analysis was preliminary and that the United States was continuing to collect and analyze evidence.
Boy that sure sounds definitive, and that in no way the US would be covering for its ally!
Let's just wait for the independent investigation. I'm going to cool my jets on this one for a while.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 18, 2023, 12:21:04 PM
And it wasn't Hamas who hit the hospital. All sides agree on that.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252
Who was it then?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 12:40:14 PM
Boy that sure sounds definitive, and that in no way the US would be covering for its ally!
Let's just wait for the independent investigation. I'm going to cool my jets on this one for a while.
Yes.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 18, 2023, 12:49:05 PM
Who was it then?
Israel claimed Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad is responsible for a deadly hospital explosion in Gaza that left hundreds dead amid the ongoing war in the region.
"A failed rocket launch by the Islamic Jihad terrorist organization hit the Al Ahli hospital in Gaza City," the Israeli military said in a post on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter.https://thehill.com/policy/international/4262103-israel-islamic-jihad-failed-rocket-gaza-hospital-explosion/
Quote from: Pakuni on October 18, 2023, 12:54:03 PM
Israel claimed Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad is responsible for a deadly hospital explosion in Gaza that left hundreds dead amid the ongoing war in the region.
"A failed rocket launch by the Islamic Jihad terrorist organization hit the Al Ahli hospital in Gaza City," the Israeli military said in a post on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4262103-israel-islamic-jihad-failed-rocket-gaza-hospital-explosion/
I read your comments that you were implying it was Israel who fired it
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 08:29:15 AM
The Foundation for Individual Rights anr Expression (FIRE) named Harvard the worst school in the country for Free Speech. Penn was 2nd.
This is indeed true.
Can I ask what you're getting at regarding Penn? Or, are you just making a point about FIRE supporting the first amendment in all circumstances no matter how disgusting or offensive someone's speech is.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 18, 2023, 12:31:04 PM
It would have been nice if the NYT and major media outlets actually waited for this to be investigated/confirmed yesterday instead of believing Hamas immediately.
It would have been nice if the WSJ and major media outlets actually waited for Iranian involvement and infant beheadings to be confirmed instead of believing Israel immediately.
Our media runs off of clicks and emotion based feedback. They should all work on not talking in the passive voice and making it clear what is ongoing in confirmation and research.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 12:40:14 PM
Boy that sure sounds definitive, and that in no way the US would be covering for its ally!
Let's just wait for the independent investigation. I'm going to cool my jets on this one for a while.
Wait. I thought you said it was definitive. Had to be Israel, couldn't be Hamas. Anything else was lies. NOW you've decided to "cool your jets"?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 02:38:59 PM
I blame Crean, aina?
Just clearing some land for the new soccer stadium
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 12:40:14 PM
Boy that sure sounds definitive, and that in no way the US would be covering for its ally!
Let's just wait for the independent investigation. I'm going to cool my jets on this one for a while.
yeah, and still waiting to see if iran knows anything about israel-gaza conflict...not enough evidence i guess.
while you're "cooling" those "jets" maybe you can find out if it's proper to wear a kilt with or without wears cuz i'd be worried about the johnson hangin below the mason-dixon line, eyn'a?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 18, 2023, 02:55:00 PM
yeah, and still waiting to see if iran knows anything about israel-gaza conflict...not enough evidence i guess.
while you're "cooling" those "jets" maybe you can find out if it's proper to wear a kilt with or without wears cuz i'd be worried about the johnson hangin below the mason-dixon line, eyn'a?
9.5 out of 10
https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1714718988876284037?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1714718988876284037%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=about%3Ablank
Aw man, another erection, hey?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 18, 2023, 02:41:14 PM
Wait. I thought you said it was definitive. Had to be Israel, couldn't be Hamas. Anything else was lies. NOW you've decided to "cool your jets"?
Please quote my post where I said that. I suggest not wasting your time, because I didn't. I merely that Israel lied. Which they did. Just like they did with Shireen Abu Akleh's murder.
Israel's official story has changed at least five times since any information was released. I never once said anything definitive about one or the other being responsible. Furthermore, even Israel says it wasn't Hamas. LOL.
I'm currently saying that the only way anyone here will get the right information is by waiting for an independent investigation.
I have repeatedly said that both sides are at fault and should work towards peace.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 18, 2023, 02:55:00 PM
yeah, and still waiting to see if iran knows anything about israel-gaza conflict...not enough evidence i guess.
while you're "cooling" those "jets" maybe you can find out if it's proper to wear a kilt with or without wears cuz i'd be worried about the johnson hangin below the mason-dixon line, eyn'a?
I think what you're getting at is that I have a big dick. I don't know, dude. You're so weird.
Hards, tell me you weren't a history major. There will NEVER be peace in the Middle East so long as one side will gladly use their children as human shields, go on suicide missions for Allah, and vow to drive the Israelis "from the river to the sea," hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 18, 2023, 03:34:01 PM
Hards, tell me you weren't a history major. There will NEVER be peace in the Middle East so long as one side will gladly use their children as human shields, go on suicide missions for Allah, and vow to drive the Israelis "from the river to the sea," hey?
When, in any age of history, has there been peace in the Middle East?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 03:28:03 PM
Furthermore, even Israel says it wasn't Hamas. LOL.
You say that like "LOL Israel doesn't even know who it is". They said it was the PIJ, who is literally a Hamas ally with the same general aims and also deemed a terrorist organization by many countries. That's not some dunk on the IDF or anyone claiming it's not Israel.
Related, anyone who is calling for a "ceasefire" is either, at worst, tacitly endorsing Hamas' aggressions with a "whatever it takes" sort of support for Palestine, or at best an unserious person with limited understanding of what it would actually be. It's essentially just trying to bully Israel into a non-aggression pact because we know Hamas wouldn't give a damn about it.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 17, 2023, 04:36:50 PM
Sounds good. I can retract that portion if you'd like. Deal with the rest though. Israel denies it despite the size of the explosion. It's lies.
The rockets that Hamas uses doesn't have the ability to destroy a hospital.
Here's one of them Hards.
My favorite thing about Scoop is that we all take such extreme positions.
IDK what Israel's end game should be here. I don't think they want to actually occupy Gaza because that's a thankless job, and I don't think they can realistically wipe out Hamas without wiping out Gaza which would start a world war. I guess they just bomb them for a while? Then build a DMZ like North Korea's?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 18, 2023, 03:44:41 PM
My favorite thing about Scoop is that we all take such extreme positions.
IDK what Israel's end game should be here. I don't think they want to actually occupy Gaza because that's a thankless job, and I don't think they can realistically wipe out Hamas without wiping out Gaza which would start a world war. I guess they just bomb them for a while? Then build a DMZ like North Korea's?
Yep. Same as before probably.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 18, 2023, 03:44:41 PM
My favorite thing about Scoop is that we all take such extreme positions.
IDK what Israel's end game should be here. I don't think they want to actually occupy Gaza because that's a thankless job, and I don't think they can realistically wipe out Hamas without wiping out Gaza which would start a world war. I guess they just bomb them for a while? Then build a DMZ like North Korea's?
I think Israel is going to have to take this a bit further than that, for better or worse (probably worse). A repeat of 2008 or 2014 won't be seen as going nearly far enough, particularly among Netanyahu's supporters.
I agree that Israel wants no part in governing or occupying Gaza long term, but I don't see how they walk away from this with the status quo intact.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 18, 2023, 03:36:41 PM
You say that like "LOL Israel doesn't even know who it is". They said it was the PIJ, who is literally a Hamas ally with the same general aims and also deemed a terrorist organization by many countries. That's not some dunk on the IDF or anyone claiming it's not Israel.
Related, anyone who is calling for a "ceasefire" is either, at worst, tacitly endorsing Hamas' aggressions with a "whatever it takes" sort of support for Palestine, or at best an unserious person with limited understanding of what it would actually be. It's essentially just trying to bully Israel into a non-aggression pact because we know Hamas wouldn't give a damn about it.
I can call for a ceasefire without endorsing Hamas. Look, here I go. Israel and Hamas should agree to a ceasefire. A lot of people on both sides have been killed and many more will be killed before this is over. Why not skip the part where many more die? It isn't as if there is going to be peace in Israel/Gaza as soon as Hamas is wiped out... which they won't be anyway. Some other group will just take their place and continue on with the same aims. Blowing each other to pieces and murdering civilians will continue until both sides can reach an agreement that is deemed fair for all. Of course, this is no easy task, but it will be required regardless of how long the war rages on.
We haven't learned anything in the last two decades of war in the world. I said it the last time, you can't kill an ideology with a gun.
It's not a dunk, its just me poking Lenny for making crap up.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 18, 2023, 03:39:08 PM
Here's one of them Hards.
None of what I said is inaccurate, and it doesn't say that it has to be Israel and not Hamas.
You're a lawyer, you can read.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 18, 2023, 03:36:41 PM
Related, anyone who is calling for a "ceasefire" is either, at worst, tacitly endorsing Hamas' aggressions with a "whatever it takes" sort of support for Palestine, or at best an unserious person with limited understanding of what it would actually be. It's essentially just trying to bully Israel into a non-aggression pact because we know Hamas wouldn't give a damn about it.
Is this guy unserious or tacitly endorsing Hamas' murder of his parents?
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/israeli-lost-parents-hamas-massacre-104217998.html
(For the record, I don't agree with him on a ceasefire)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 04:07:46 PM
None of what I said is inaccurate, and it doesn't say that it has to be Israel and not Hamas.
You're a lawyer, you can read.
Yes, you said Israel denies it was them. And you said they are lying about it. That is completely inaccurate.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 18, 2023, 04:03:14 PM
I think Israel is going to have to take this a bit further than that, for better or worse (probably worse). A repeat of 2008 or 2014 won't be seen as going nearly far enough, particularly among Netanyahu's supporters.
I agree that Israel wants no part in governing or occupying Gaza long term, but I don't see how they walk away from this with the status quo intact.
UN administered temporary government in Gaza to assist with rebuild, elections, and governance. Hamas cannot be allowed to exist in any form. Gaza recognized as its own nation, and Gaza must recognize Israel as a nation. Israel will have to lift its blockade of Gaza. Unfortunately, Gaza will continue to have to exist as a police state until relations with Israel improve.
The West Bank is going to be a whole other story.
Of course this won't fix everything, but it is at least somewhere to start.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 17, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Sure it was. Hamas is firing rockets into southern Gaza.
This was Hamas too, I'm sure.
https://time.com/6324775/hundreds-killed-israeli-airstrike-gaza-hospital/
From Reuters:The military also released an audio file and a transcript of what it said was a conversation between two Hamas militants saying an Islamic Jihad rocket had misfired. It was not possible to verify the material independently. The audio was edited including with bleeps to obscure words and names.
Hamas did not immediately comment on the audio.
The military said some 450 rockets fired from Gaza had fallen short and landed in the Gaza Strip in the past 11 days.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 04:06:34 PM
I can call for a ceasefire without endorsing Hamas. Look, here I go. Israel and Hamas should agree to a ceasefire. A lot of people on both sides have been killed and many more will be killed before this is over. Why not skip the part where many more die? It isn't as if there is going to be peace in Israel/Gaza as soon as Hamas is wiped out... which they won't be anyway. Some other group will just take their place and continue on with the same aims. Blowing each other to pieces and murdering civilians will continue until both sides can reach an agreement that is deemed fair for all. Of course, this is no easy task, but it will be required regardless of how long the war rages on.
We haven't learned anything in the last two decades of war in the world. I said it the last time, you can't kill an ideology with a gun.
It's not a dunk, its just me poking Lenny for making crap up.
That's fine, you can say anything you want, but it's based in some unserious notion pertaining to Hamas. If this was Israel vs the PLO, or even Fatah, I could understand the argument. But not with an organization like Hamas who will never stop cause they have no interest in peace with an existing Israel.
And I feel for this man's suffering, and even more so respect his desire for peace in place of a very understandable desire for revenge...but to me, "ending the war" is still one sided. Israel declared war on Hamas last week. Hamas has had war declared on Israel for 20+ years. They aren't going to stop cause Israel/the world asked nicely.
I certainly don't have a solution or all the answers, but the only way I ever see pushing any peace forward is people/a group within the Palestinian ranks and cause who can neuter Hamas to an extent that a non-eradication of Israel voice can actually speak to peace and a true 2 state solution
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 18, 2023, 04:22:02 PM
Yes, you said Israel denies it was them. And you said they are lying about it. That is completely inaccurate.
It isn't. Israel denies it was them, that's fine. But they also released a LOT of misinformation immediately after the bombing. Much of it was proven false quickly, and their story changed. So, yes, it was lies.
The current version is what is sticking. But I don't consider this issue resolved. Nor should you until there is an independent investigation.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 04:22:39 PM
UN administered temporary government in Gaza to assist with rebuild, elections, and governance. Hamas cannot be allowed to exist in any form. Gaza recognized as its own nation, and Gaza must recognize Israel as a nation. Israel will have to lift its blockade of Gaza. Unfortunately, Gaza will continue to have to exist as a police state until relations with Israel improve.
The West Bank is going to be a whole other story.
Of course this won't fix everything, but it is at least somewhere to start.
FWIW as one of the more "pro-Israel" voices in this thread, I have no issue with this plan. I think Gaza and West Bank existing as 2 separate nation states could be an issue, but otherwise it's reasonable. And honestly think it's a pretty palatable outcome for a modern, non Bibi/Likud minded Israel
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 04:24:49 PM
It isn't. Israel denies it was them, that's fine. But they also released a LOT of misinformation immediately after the bombing. Much of it was proven false quickly, and their story changed. So, yes, it was lies.
The current version is what is sticking. But I don't consider this issue resolved. Nor should you until there is an independent investigation.
What did Israel actually release? I am not talking about some shmucks on twitter trying to get the jump. Video evidence shows the rocket comes from Gaza. An intercepted phone call between 2 Hamas soldiers state it was PIJ. But sure, Israel is lying because you have become an expert on the sounds of rockets.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 18, 2023, 04:30:35 PM
FWIW as one of the more "pro-Israel" voices in this thread, I have no issue with this plan. I think Gaza and West Bank existing as 2 separate nation states could be an issue, but otherwise it's reasonable. And honestly think it's a pretty palatable outcome for a modern, non Bibi/Likud minded Israel
I think they need to exist as two separate nations because they have separate needs. Unless there is a land corridor or free movement between them, I think they need to remain separate. Having said that, if they want to merge into a single state (after a period of time) that is their decision as nation states.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 04:06:34 PM
We haven't learned anything in the last two decades of war in the world. I said it the last time, you can't kill an ideology with a gun.
You can, however, render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless. But I guess you've never heard of our Civil War or World War II.
The idea that Israel should respond to Hamas's brutality with a suggestion for a group hug shows where your alliance lies.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 04:42:17 PM
I think they need to exist as two separate nations because they have separate needs. Unless there is a land corridor or free movement between them, I think they need to remain separate. Having said that, if they want to merge into a single state (after a period of time) that is their decision as nation states.
That's not happening. And frankly the UN would have no interest as well.
Gaza existing as a separate country is de facto what was going on already right? Why would this outcome be different?
Kinda think the best outcome would be to massively invest in fixing the infrastructure and finding a way to have Egypt take it back.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 18, 2023, 04:49:59 PM
Gaza existing as a separate country is de facto what was going on already right? Why would this outcome be different?
Kinda think the best outcome would be to massively invest in fixing the infrastructure and finding a way to have Egypt take it back.
Is there any oil there?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 18, 2023, 04:43:26 PM
You can, however, render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless. But I guess you've never heard of our Civil War or World War II.
I know this is way off topic, but since you opened this door ...
No, the white supremacism behind slavery was not rendered "basically powerless" by the Civil War.
Certainly the thousands of Black Americans lynched, shot, bombed, burned and beaten to death because of their race since Reconstruction might think otherwise, not to mention the millions denied civil rights. Slavery ended, but the ideology remained powerful, and in some ways still is today. It's less so not because the Union Army killed a bunch of Confederate soldiers, but because 100 years later we started writing laws to ensure civil rights and then enforced them. Well, sometimes, anyhow.
Anyhow, while racism obviously still is a force in this country, it's less so not because the good guys won the Civil War 158 years ago, but because of the legislation and persuasion of the last 60 years.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 18, 2023, 04:43:26 PM
You can, however, render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless. But I guess you've never heard of our Civil War or World War II.
The idea that Israel should respond to Hamas's brutality with a suggestion for a group hug shows where your alliance lies.
That was a nice straw man you set for yourself to knock down. I bet you are feeling pretty smart.
My comment was that ideologies can't be killed with a gun. That is why you still see Confederate stuff all over the place in the US. Also, I wouldn't call the Nazis dead and gone.
And again. I have no alliance. I don't know how many times you have to read it for you to get it through your thick skull. But there is another for you.
This statement from someone who has been responsible for facilitating arms transfers and provisions for over a decade is worth a read.
https://x.com/bcfinucane/status/1714780336410751214?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
From the AP:
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israel said Wednesday that it will allow Egypt to deliver limited humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. The first crack in a punishing 10-day siege on the territory came one day after a blast at a hospital killed hundreds and put immense strain on Gaza's struggling medical system.
The announcement to allow water, food and other supplies happened as fury over the blast at Gaza City's al-Ahli Hospital spread across the Middle East, and as U.S. President Joe Biden visited Israel in hopes of preventing a wider conflict in the region.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-hospital-d9606e0ead1f8c4e9fd00b602ed14a38?user_email=6647dfa7189f748384d7389910f7b584c6fcfc35ae990102964c7e826d4175c7&utm_medium=Afternoon_Wire&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=AfternoonWire_Oct18_2023&utm_term=Afternoon%20Wire
NM
Quote from: Pakuni on October 18, 2023, 05:08:43 PM
I know this is way off topic, but since you opened this door ...
No, the white supremacism behind slavery was not rendered "basically powerless" by the Civil War.
Certainly the thousands of Black Americans lynched, shot, bombed, burned and beaten to death because of their race since Reconstruction might think otherwise, not to mention the millions denied civil rights. Slavery ended, but the ideology remained powerful, and in some ways still is today. It's less so not because the Union Army killed a bunch of Confederate soldiers, but because 100 years later we started writing laws to ensure civil rights and then enforced them. Well, sometimes, anyhow.
Anyhow, while racism obviously still is a force in this country, it's less so not because the good guys won the Civil War 158 years ago, but because of the legislation and persuasion of the last 60 years.
So what you're saying is that bringing Hamas, Hezbolla and any other promoters of the Holocaust part 2 to their knees won't finish the job any more than the Civil War or WWII did re previous hateful ideologies. Okay. But like in 1861 or 1941, it's a start. And maybe, like in 1861 or 1941, a necessary one. Hoping the cancer away doesn't seem to be getting the job done.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 05:44:26 PM
That was a nice straw man you set for yourself to knock down. I bet you are feeling pretty smart.
My comment was that ideologies can't be killed with a gun. That is why you still see Confederate stuff all over the place in the US. Also, I wouldn't call the Nazis dead and gone.
Straw man? Huh? You said, you can't kill an ideology with a gun. I said maybe not kill it, but pretty much render it powerless. I cited examples. Do you really think a party advocating slavery is powerful in the US today? Or a party claiming Aryans a master race bent on genocide/world domination in Germany? IOW, it's awful, but some things can ONLY be solved with a gun. Sad but true for anyone who knows history.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 18, 2023, 08:24:10 PM
So what you're saying is that bringing Hamas, Hezbolla and any other promoters of the Holocaust part 2 to their knees won't finish the job any more than the Civil War or WWII did re previous hateful ideologies. Okay. But like in 1861 or 1941, it's a start. And maybe, like in 1861 or 1941, a necessary one. Hoping the cancer away doesn't seem to be getting the job done.
No, that's not close to what Im saying, Lenny. Why are you being disingenuous?
And do you actually believe "hoping the problem goes away" has been Israel's policy?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 18, 2023, 08:44:15 PM
No, that's not close to what Im saying, Lenny. Why are you being disingenuous?
And do you actually believe "hoping the problem goes away" has been Israel's policy?
Disingenuous? How so?
I think the disingenuous one is you. Over 600,000 lost their lives in the Civil War, at least as many US citizens as in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, World War I, World War II and the Korean War combined. It made a bankrupt ideology illegal throughout the land was a first giant step in healing a nation. But because it didn't make things perfect, you (imo) diminish both its impact and those who sacrificed their lives.
Israel's policy in dealing with any enemy who wants them eliminated hasn't been effective - just as US policy dealing with slave states and worldwide policy dealing with Hitler's Germany wasn't. In all of those cases the actions of those pushing bankrupt ideologies kept leaving fewer choices for their victims or intended victims. In the end sometimes one has no choice.
Unfortunately, Gaza will continue to have to exist as a police state until relations with Israel improve
step back from the bong for a few weeks and air your brain cells out man
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 18, 2023, 08:34:02 PM
Straw man? Huh? You said, you can't kill an ideology with a gun. I said maybe not kill it, but pretty much render it powerless. I cited examples. Do you really think a party advocating slavery is powerful in the US today? Or a party claiming Aryans a master race bent on genocide/world domination in Germany? IOW, it's awful, but some things can ONLY be solved with a gun. Sad but true for anyone who knows history.
You think if Hamas is fully eliminated from Gaza that there will be no power vacuum, and that something that is Hamas with another name won't come back?
The cost of the bridge is $5 million, you in?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 18, 2023, 09:19:27 PM
Disingenuous? How so?
By continually misstating and distorting what I and other have written here.
I choose not believe rhat you simply can't read the English language. So the only alternative is that you're doing it intentionally.
I'm diminishing the sacrifices of Union soldiers by pointing out that the Civil War did not, in fact, end racism against Black Americans? lol.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 18, 2023, 10:02:34 PM
You think if Hamas is fully eliminated from Gaza that there will be no power vacuum, and that something that is Hamas with another name won't come back?
The cost of the bridge is $5 million, you in?
Not to mention, most of the weapons Hamas has made, actually uses scrap metal from previous rounds of destruction. There will be a lot of scrap metal to build new weapons after all this is over.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 18, 2023, 10:09:56 PM
By continually misstating and distorting what I and other have written here.
I choose not believe rhat you simply can't read the English language. So the only alternative is that you're doing it intentionally.
I'm diminishing the sacrifices of Union soldiers by pointing out that the Civil War did not, in fact, end racism against Black Americans? lol.
The Civil War was not fought to end racism Pakuni, it was to end slavery, but I think you know that. You are the one being disingenuous. Racism has existed in every culture from the beginning of time and continues today.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 04:40:46 AM
The Civil War was not fought to end racism Pakuni. You are the one being disingenuous. Racism has existed in every culture from the beginning of time and continues today.
Sorry but Lenny's was the one who claimed that wars can "render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless." And then used the Civil War as an example.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65076.msg1577019#msg1577019
Which is silly because it didn't render any sort of ideology powerless. It simply changed the legal status of a group of people and preserved the union.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 18, 2023, 09:48:35 PM
Unfortunately, Gaza will continue to have to exist as a police state until relations with Israel improve
step back from the bong for a few weeks and air your brain cells out man
3.5 out of 10
Just saw this quote from Moshe Dayan, the former Israeli defense minister who went on to become a major advocate for peace, helping to negotiate the 1978 Israel-Egypt peace treaty:
"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 04:40:46 AM
The Civil War was not fought to end racism Pakuni, it was to end slavery, but I think you know that. You are the one being disingenuous. Racism has existed in every culture from the beginning of time and continues today.
Thanks for reiterating my point. Appreciate the support.
Next time, instead of being so eager to disagree with me, read the full discussion first.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 18, 2023, 04:38:47 PM
What did Israel actually release? I am not talking about some shmucks on twitter trying to get the jump. Video evidence shows the rocket comes from Gaza. An intercepted phone call between 2 Hamas soldiers state it was PIJ. But sure, Israel is lying because you have become an expert on the sounds of rockets.
Sorry, I missed this earlier. Finding deleted tweets isn't something I'm interested in doing, but you're welcome to look for yourself.
I posted https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1714400598991261966 before.
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation
Edited to add more:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-hospital-explosion-israel-wwk-explainer-intl/index.html
"A video posted by the official State of Israel's account on social media platform X on Tuesday night was also presented as evidence that the hospital was struck in outgoing rocket fire from militants. But the timestamp on the video appeared not to match up with the time that the explosion took place, and the tweet was later edited to remove the video."
All I have said is to not believe everything Israel says. Their history speaks for itself. Wait for the independent investigation. If that comes back and says Israel's version of events is accurate, I will have no problem agreeing with it.
Quote from: MU82 on October 19, 2023, 06:56:43 AM
Just saw this quote from Moshe Dayan, the former Israeli defense minister who went on to become a major advocate for peace, helping to negotiate the 1978 Israel-Egypt peace treaty:
"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."
And you have to trust them. And it doesn't help that the Israelis have taken advantage of the West Bank Palestinians relative weakness to annex East Jerusalem and erect settlements in the West Bank.
Israel trusted Egypt. They de-occupied the Sanai, and have been at peace with them since.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 19, 2023, 07:04:24 AM
Thanks for reiterating my point. Appreciate the support.
Next time, instead of being so eager to disagree with me, read the full discussion first.
I did, and your point seems to be off topic. Lenny's point was about getting genocidal regimes out of place. Your point that "legislation" to get rid of the power. You cant get that legislation written without first removing those in power.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 19, 2023, 07:21:48 AM
And you have to trust them. And it doesn't help that the Israelis have taken advantage of the West Bank Palestinians relative weakness to annex East Jerusalem and erect settlements in the West Bank.
Israel trusted Egypt. They de-occupied the Sanai, and have been at peace with them since.
Is that surprising? The Likud Party's 1999 official platform is to ensure there is no Palestinian state west of the Jordan river and to Unify the entire region under Israeli control through settlements.
They trusted Egypt and made peace with them, because it made it easier to achieve their goals.
This is also terrorism and needs to be globally denounced.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/middleeast/west-bank-settler-attacks-israel-cmd-intl/index.html
Even using barbaric tactics of using a primary attack, to have rescuers come try to save those who were attacked, while gunmen wait to kill the first responders. Children murdered in their homes? Sound familiar.
Quote from: forgetful on October 19, 2023, 08:18:24 AM
This is also terrorism and needs to be globally denounced.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/middleeast/west-bank-settler-attacks-israel-cmd-intl/index.html
Even using barbaric tactics of using a primary attack, to have rescuers come try to save those who were attacked, while gunmen wait to kill the first responders. Children murdered in their homes? Sound familiar.
The world will turn a blind eye because they're Palestinians. Everything that Hamas has done excuses this type of behavior that has been perpetrated for years.
MU82 told me that his friend from Tel-Aviv said that Israel isn't an apartheid state. If that is the case, why are settlers allowed to take land away? Why do Palestinians have different license plates? Well to make sure they don't drive on the wrong roads in the Palestinian West Bank of course!
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 07:25:01 AM
I did, and your point seems to be off topic. Lenny's point was about getting genocidal regimes out of place. Your point that "legislation" to get rid of the power. You cant get that legislation written without first removing those in power.
I'll spare everyone the off-topic, seventh grade history lesson here, but no, the Civil War did not remove the purveyors of white supremacism (of which slavery was a symptom) from power in the South. The ghosts of George Wallace, Bull Connor, Eugene Talmadge, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett and dozens more like them - not to mention those who lived under segregation and Jim Crow - might dispute your take on that.
As for legislation, didn't the 13th Amendment pass Congress in the midst of the Civil War? Didn't the Civil Rights Act pass with near total opposition from Southern segregationists?
As a side note, Lenny should feel fortunate nobody has called out his take that World War II was fought over Hitler's racial ideology.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 19, 2023, 09:02:55 AM
I'll spare everyone the off-topic, seventh grade history lesson here, but no, the Civil War did not remove the purveyors of white supremacism (of which slavery was a symptom) from power in the South. The ghosts of George Wallace, Bull Connor, Eugene Talmadge, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett and dozens more like them - not to mention those who lived under segregation and Jim Crow - might dispute your take on that.
As for legislation, didn't the 13th Amendment pass Congress in the midst of the Civil War? Didn't the Civil Rights Act pass with near total opposition from Southern segregationists?
As a side note, Lenny should feel fortunate nobody has called out his take that World War II was fought over Hitler's racial ideology.
You may want to go back to 7th grade, the 13th amendment wasn't ratified until after the war ended.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 09:08:12 AM
You may want to go back to 7th grade, the 13th amendment wasn't ratified until after the war ended.
Again, you may want to read what I actually wrote instead of being so eager to disagree.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 19, 2023, 09:15:41 AM
Again, you may want to read what I actually wrote instead of being so eager to disagree.
Passing means nothing until it is ratified. War got it passed. Sometimes war is necessary, unfortunately. Also, look at the 13th Amendment dradt before the war started
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 09:19:07 AM
Passing means nothing until it is ratified. War got it passed. Sometimes war is necessary, unfortunately. Also, look at the 13th Amendment dradt before the war started
Better yet, look at what it took to get it ratified. You may find it conflicts with your insistence that the Civil War removed white supremacists from power in the South.
Finally we can talk about the United State's need to finally finish reconstruction.
Thank you, Hamas, for helping us have this conversation.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 19, 2023, 09:27:30 AM
Better yet, look at what it took to get it ratified. You may find it conflicts with your insistence that the Civil War removed white supremacists from power in the South.
I never said that. Talk about lack of reading comprehension.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 19, 2023, 09:42:04 AM
Finally we can talk about the United State's need to finally finish reconstruction.
Thank you, Hamas, for helping us have this conversation.
Plus, the Civil War was clearly about states rights
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 09:46:18 AM
I never said that. Talk about lack of reading comprehension.
Oh?
"You cant get that legislation written
without first removing those in power."
Of course, you've also shifted goalposts from "get that legislation written" to "get an amendment ratified."
And Skatastrophy is 100 percent correct. No more Civil War talk from me.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 19, 2023, 10:00:23 AM
Oh?
"You cant get that legislation written without first removing those in power."
Of course, you've also shifted goalposts from "get that legislation written" to "get an amendment ratified."
And Skatastrophy is 100 percent correct. No more Civil War talk from me.
I was talking about slavery
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 19, 2023, 07:21:48 AM
And you have to trust them. And it doesn't help that the Israelis have taken advantage of the West Bank Palestinians relative weakness to annex East Jerusalem and erect settlements in the West Bank.
Israel trusted Egypt. They de-occupied the Sanai, and have been at peace with them since.
Fair points. I'd posit that a close cousin of "you have to trust them" is "you have to work with them to build trust." Very difficult concepts in highly charged situations.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 19, 2023, 08:32:37 AM
MU82 told me that his friend from Tel-Aviv said that Israel isn't an apartheid state. If that is the case, why are settlers allowed to take land away? Why do Palestinians have different license plates? Well to make sure they don't drive on the wrong roads in the Palestinian West Bank of course!
It was my sister-in-law saying that. I was just passing along her observations and opinions, and I qualified it by saying she was very Jewish and very pro-Israel. You can define and/or interpret things however you want; I do not have the expertise on what is an isn't an apartheid state to have an opinion.
Quote from: MU82 on October 19, 2023, 10:52:08 AM
It was my sister-in-law saying that. I was just passing along her observations and opinions, and I qualified it by saying she was very Jewish and very pro-Israel. You can define and/or interpret things however you want; I do not have the expertise on what is an isn't an apartheid state to have an opinion.
I know. I wasn't implying otherwise. You should probably ask her about those things next time you speak.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 19, 2023, 11:03:53 AM
I know. I wasn't implying otherwise. You should probably ask her about those things next time you speak.
Or how about asking/talking about less divisive stuff
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 11:21:32 AM
Or how about asking/talking about less divisive stuff
Yeah, it would be terrible to discuss the current politics of the region his SIL lives in after she's already brought it up.
There is no gun to his head. He doesn't have to.
For someone who "just wants peace/the war to end" you seem pretty acutely pissed at only one specific side and are quick to go at the neck of anyone who seems remotely favorable to Israel at the moment. And now are suggesting people start contentious arguments with family members cause those family members aren't thinking/saying what you want them to.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 19, 2023, 11:37:53 AM
For someone who "just wants peace/the war to end" you seem pretty acutely pissed at only one specific side and are quick to go at the neck of anyone who seems remotely favorable to Israel at the moment. And now are suggesting people start contentious arguments with family members cause those family members aren't thinking/saying what you want them to.
No, I just think people who are ignoring a major problem should probably consider what is actually happening. MU82's SIL clearly brought the topic up. Why would asking her question,s she may not have thought about, be considered contentious? Again, Mr 82 doesn't have to do this. But he posted her thoughts. Is that a topic that is unacceptable to discuss on this forum?
Once again. I do not favor either side. I want it to end. Both sides have acted very poorly.
The people who keep calling me one sided here seem to be telling on themselves. They're the same people who breathlessly defend Israel at ever turn and don't seem to consider both sides of what is happening.
No need to continuously try and explain this away. You are a card carrying member of the Scoop 10. Congrats and ya got dat goin' fore ya, aina?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 19, 2023, 11:44:15 AM
No, I just think people who are ignoring a major problem should probably consider what is actually happening. MU82's SIL clearly brought the topic up. Why would asking her question,s she may not have thought about, be considered contentious? Again, Mr 82 doesn't have to do this. But he posted her thoughts. Is that a topic that is unacceptable to discuss on this forum?
Once again. I do not favor either side. I want it to end. Both sides have acted very poorly.
The people who keep calling me one sided here seem to be telling on themselves. They're the same people who breathlessly defend Israel at ever turn and don't seem to consider both sides of what is happening.
I could see how that conversation would go:
SIL: MU82 its good to hear your voice. We're not sure how long we are going to have phone service, as we have Hezbollah on one side ready to attack, and Hamas sending rockets our way
Mu82: I have been meaning to ask you. Why don't you think Israel is an apartheid state?
SIL: Why the F$%# would you ask me that right now? Are you seriously blaming us for the terrorist attack? Did I ask you about US policies over here, right after 9-11?
MU82: Well this internet guy said I should ask you
Line goes dead
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 12:42:07 PM
I could see how that conversation would go:
SIL: MU82 its good to hear your voice. We're not sure how long we are going to have phone service, as we have Hezbollah on one side ready to attack, and Hamas sending rockets our way
Mu82: I have been meaning to ask you. Why don't you think Israel is an apartheid state?
SIL: Why the F$%# would you ask me that right now? Are you seriously blaming us for the terrorist attack? Did I ask you about US policies over here, right after 9-11?
MU82: Well this internet guy said I should ask you
Line goes dead
Quite a vivid imagination you have there.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 12:42:07 PM
I could see how that conversation would go:
SIL: MU82 its good to hear your voice. We're not sure how long we are going to have phone service, as we have Hezbollah on one side ready to attack, and Hamas sending rockets our way
Mu82: I have been meaning to ask you. Why don't you think Israel is an apartheid state?
SIL: Why the F$%# would you ask me that right now? Are you seriously blaming us for the terrorist attack? Did I ask you about US policies over here, right after 9-11?
MU82: Well this internet guy said I should ask you
Line goes dead
Wow! You know my sister-in-law!
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 12:42:07 PM
I could see how that conversation would go:
SIL: MU82 its good to hear your voice. We're not sure how long we are going to have phone service, as we have Hezbollah on one side ready to attack, and Hamas sending rockets our way
Mu82: I have been meaning to ask you. Why don't you think Israel is an apartheid state?
SIL: Why the F$%# would you ask me that right now? Are you seriously blaming us for the terrorist attack? Did I ask you about US policies over here, right after 9-11?
MU82: Well this internet guy said I should ask you
Line goes dead
After 9/11, we absolutely should have re-evaluted US policy. Maybe we could have avoided the deaths of many US soldiers and innocent civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 12:42:07 PM
I could see how that conversation would go:
SIL: MU82 its good to hear your voice. We're not sure how long we are going to have phone service, as we have Hezbollah on one side ready to attack, and Hamas sending rockets our way
Mu82: I have been meaning to ask you. Why don't you think Israel is an apartheid state?
SIL: Why the F$%# would you ask me that right now? Are you seriously blaming us for the terrorist attack? Did I ask you about US policies over here, right after 9-11?
MU82: Well this internet guy said I should ask you
Line goes dead
this was perfect dog! nicely done!
there is no equivalency here-maybe i missed the time israel mowed down a bunch of innocent palestinians and then took a few hundred hostages. i googled this and i'm still searching. so according to hardy, he thinks both sides should just get together again, smoke a bowl and shake hands
israel has had it and they are going to take out the garbage once and for all. i just hope this also ends any more thoughts of allowing iran to continue to develop nukes even though it's probably too late now
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 19, 2023, 02:01:11 PM
this was perfect dog! nicely done!
there is no equivalency here-maybe i missed the time israel mowed down a bunch of innocent palestinians and then took a few hundred hostages. i googled this and i'm still searching. so according to hardy, he thinks both sides should just get together again, smoke a bowl and shake hands
israel has had it and they are going to take out the garbage once and for all. i just hope this also ends any more thoughts of allowing iran to continue to develop nukes even though it's probably too late now
4 out of 10
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 19, 2023, 02:01:11 PM
this was perfect dog! nicely done!
there is no equivalency here-maybe i missed the time israel mowed down a bunch of innocent palestinians and then took a few hundred hostages. i googled this and i'm still searching. so according to hardy, he thinks both sides should just get together again, smoke a bowl and shake hands
israel has had it and they are going to take out the garbage once and for all. i just hope this also ends any more thoughts of allowing iran to continue to develop nukes even though it's probably too late now
"maybe i missed the time israel mowed down a bunch of innocent Palestinians" means you either have your head so far up your ass that you can't smell your own S*** anymore or you consider no Palestinian, children and babies, innocent. Or more likely you see them as subhuman.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 19, 2023, 02:24:29 PM
"maybe i missed the time israel mowed down a bunch of innocent Palestinians" means you either have your head so far up your ass that you can't smell your own S*** anymore or you consider no Palestinian, children and babies, innocent. Or more likely you see them as subhuman.
That is his second mention of smoking a bowl today. I appreciate his incredible fear of weed but fervent belief in horse paste
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 19, 2023, 02:01:11 PM
this was perfect dog! nicely done!
there is no equivalency here-maybe i missed the time israel mowed down a bunch of innocent palestinians and then took a few hundred hostages. i googled this and i'm still searching. so according to hardy, he thinks both sides should just get together again, smoke a bowl and shake hands
israel has had it and they are going to take out the garbage once and for all. i just hope this also ends any more thoughts of allowing iran to continue to develop nukes even though it's probably too late now
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Since you're interested in keeping score (kinda gross) I'll help you. From 2008 through August 2023 The number of Palestinian children killed was 1162. That same period of time the number of Israeli children killed was 25. My data doesn't include hostages taken, so let's assume they didn't. For every one Israeli child killed, more than 57 Palestinian children were killed. Are you happy that you know the score now? Have I educated you adequately?
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 19, 2023, 09:46:18 AM
I never said that. Talk about lack of reading comprehension.
Pakuni is a master at twisting what other people say and at complaining that others do it to him. It's his shtick.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 19, 2023, 02:32:13 PM
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Since you're interested in keeping score (kinda gross) I'll help you. From 2008 through August 2023 The number of Palestinian children killed was 1162. That same period of time the number of Israeli children killed was 25. My data doesn't include hostages taken, so let's assume they didn't. For every one Israeli child killed, more than 57 Palestinian children were killed. Are you happy that you know the score now? Have I educated you adequately?
For this element, it is important to determine what one considers a hostage. Does Israeli illegal detainment of women and children, where they are continued to be held despite not being accused of any crimes, or any criminal proceedings moving forwards count as hostages?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 19, 2023, 02:24:29 PM
"maybe i missed the time israel mowed down a bunch of innocent Palestinians" means you either have your head so far up your ass that you can't smell your own S*** anymore or you consider no Palestinian, children and babies, innocent. Or more likely you see them as subhuman.
none of the above there plaque man...go do a bowl and brush your teeth
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 19, 2023, 05:06:37 PM
none of the above there plaque man...go do a bowl and brush your teeth
7.5 out of 10
Have there been any actual pictures of this Gaza hospital attack? You would think if 500 people were killed we would have some serious mages regardless of who is responsible.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 19, 2023, 05:06:37 PM
none of the above there plaque man...go do a bowl and brush your teeth
what if you are the 1 dentist of "9 out of 10 dentists agree" though?
If you don't the implications above, don't be so willfully ignorant of the realities of the actions of our allies. It is ok to acknowledge that sometimes the people you support do bad things. This isn't a zero sum game.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 19, 2023, 05:26:55 PM
what if you are the 1 dentist of "9 out of 10 dentists agree" though?
If you don't the implications above, don't be so willfully ignorant of the realities of the actions of our allies. It is ok to acknowledge that sometimes the people you support do bad things. This isn't a zero sum game.
Is it okay to acknowledge that there is no moral equivalency whatsoever and that Islamic Terrorism, and asshat regimes like in Iran, pose a serious threat to the world?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 05:34:14 PM
Is it okay to acknowledge that there is no moral equivalency whatsoever and that Islamic Terrorism, and asshat regimes like in Iran, pose a serious threat to the world?
You can say what you want. No one is stopping you.
I did not mention Islamic terrorism in my topic, and if you are insinuating I am downplaying it then feel free to think that way but to be honest, you should not have to offer disclaimers of literally everything and everyone else that is bad when you are talking about something. Your whataboutism is just your means of deflecting some atrocities I suppose. I was only saying that it was pure ignorant bliss to pretend there are not large numbers of innocent civilians caught up in crossfire here, and to deny that would be to deny personhood and innocence to children, which is absolutely what some people here are doing (AKA Islam bad!).
To be honest, your continued fixation on Iran regime change and taking their oil is hysteria. You seem to think that invading the 17th largest country by land mass with 3 times as many people as Iraq is a walk in the park. Likely we would have to see a reinstitution of the draft if there were any hopes of an occupation. No occupation means power vacuum and another way larger radical group out to wipe us from the face of the earth due to our inability to not trip over our own d***s. Hell that actually probably happens anyway with an occupation.
Nice run on sentence ^, Sheesh
You're a good representative of la-la-land Plague. You "honestly" need to deal with reality.
Muggsy's reality is that Liam Neeson movies are documentaries
"The USS Carney, a U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyer in the northern Red Sea, on Thursday shot down multiple missiles and drones launched by Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen that the Pentagon said were potentially headed toward targets in Israel."
Remember about the fog of war and initial reports are usually incorrect. But this is directly from the US navy.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/security-incident-involving-us-navy-destroyer-red-sea/story?id=104147141
I don't love that we're an active participant in this crapshow.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 19, 2023, 06:35:59 PM
The USS Carney, a U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyer in the northern Red Sea, on Thursday shot down multiple missiles and drones launched by Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen that the Pentagon said were potentially headed toward targets in Israel.
Remember about the fog of war and initial reports are usually incorrect. But this is directly from the US navy.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/security-incident-involving-us-navy-destroyer-red-sea/story?id=104147141
I don't love that we're an active participant in this crapshow.
I'm OK with it as long as we are only playing defense. I dont want our boots on the ground, or launching missles at people
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 06:28:05 PM
You're a good representative of la-la-land Plague. You "honestly" need to deal with reality.
No, he's honestly correct and not dishonestly naive about how the world works and what America stands for
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2023, 06:40:24 PM
No, he's honestly correct and not dishonestly naive about how the world works and what America stands for
Wrong. I'm not "obsessed" with Iran. I'm obsessed with innocent civilians being slaughtered because of a whacko ideology. I'm obsessed with people not understanding who our enemies are. And I'm obsessed with the United States being the dominant power of the world in lieu of China.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 06:48:53 PM
Wrong. I'm not "obsessed" with Iran. I'm obsessed with innocent civilians being slaughtered because of a whacko ideology. I'm obsessed with people not understanding who our enemies are. And I'm obsessed with the United States being the dominant power of the world in lieu of China.
And obsessed with sending thousands of Americans to their death on a whim.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 19, 2023, 06:34:31 PM
Muggsy's reality is that Liam Neeson movies are documentaries
Let me tell you something TSmith,
There are times you simply have to use hard power. I will admit I'm a bit more vengeful than some, but I'm looking at this with eagle vision and Blue Whale vs Krill dominance. If we do not wake up the result will be an irrevocable s-show.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2023, 06:52:37 PM
And obsessed with sending thousands of Americans to their death on a whim.
Uh.....no.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 06:55:57 PM
Uh.....no.
That's the cost at a minimum getting involved militarily in the Middle East
President addressing the nation about the US being involved in 2 wars.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/19/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2023, 06:59:52 PM
That's the cost at a minimum getting involved militarily in the Middle East
We may have no choice Reeko. But shouldn't need ground troops. i think appeasement has jumped the shark and is dangerous from a long-term perspective.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 07:05:01 PM
We may have no choice Reeko. But shouldn't need ground troops. i think appeasement has jumped the shark and is dangerous from a long-term perspective.
That's right, I forgot your 5-point plan. Should I watch Delta Force or Syriana?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2023, 07:09:00 PM
That's right, I forgot your 5-point plan. Should I watch Delta Force or Syriana?
I don't care t to upset some here, ergo I will keep my 5-Point plan to myself.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 07:12:02 PM
I don't care t to upset some here, ergo I will keep my 5-Point plan to myself.
That's fine. Just let me know what movie I should watch to at least have an idea how you plan on eliminating the mullahs, taking over the oil fields and peacefully create a new Iranian state and not suffer any consequences from the world at large
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2023, 07:14:57 PM
That's fine. Just let me know what movie I should watch to at least have an idea how you plan on eliminating the mullahs, taking over the oil fields and peacefully create a new Iranian state and not suffer any consequences from the world at large
Let me think about that....I'm not sure it's been depicted on the big screen. I never suggested the creation of a peaceful Iranian state.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 07:17:32 PM
Let me think about that....I'm not sure it's been depicted on the big screen. I never suggested the creation of a peaceful Iranian state.
Oh, so we'd be occupiers
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 07:05:01 PM
We may have no choice Reeko. But shouldn't need ground troops. i think appeasement has jumped the shark and is dangerous from a long-term perspective.
Do you honestly believe that no boots on the ground would do what it is your suggest is needed to be done there? And you say I am in "La-La Land"?
When you say "deal with reality" you mean what you would prefer to be reality and let's not pretend it is anything otherwise.
Sometime you should take a step back, sip a tall glass of nuance and think "Have we always been/Are we the good guys?". Because the historical answer might really surprise you when you stop clamoring for shock and awe for a hot second.
I myself am thoroughly on team "no boots on the ground playing defense" like Lawdog77 said. But we are also sending tens of thousands of shells meant for Ukraine (Produced by Pakistan, that'll be an awkward phone call!) with a 50m kill radius. For urban warfare that is absolutely psychopath s***. It is hard for me to grasp endorsing this behavior in such a small dense area unless you believe internally that these people are less than human and the ends justify the means no matter what.
Link here: https://www.axios.com/2023/10/19/us-israel-artillery-shells-ukraine-weapons-gaza
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 19, 2023, 07:18:49 PM
Oh, so we'd be occupiers
Not exactly. I will keep the details to myself .
Share them with a decision maker.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 07:27:21 PM
Not exactly. I will keep the details to myself .
I hope colonizing and converting them religiously is part of the plan
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 06:55:23 PM
Let me tell you something TSmith,
There are times you simply have to use hard power. I will admit I'm a bit more vengeful than some, but I'm looking at this with eagle vision and Blue Whale vs Krill dominance. If we do not wake up the result will be an irrevocable s-show.
You're "exhilarated" over a childishly naive fantasy where the U.S. unilaterally invades the Middle East, not to mention Russia, and seizes all their land and resources, in the course of three weeks, killing millions of people in the process. This from the same guy that moments ago said, "I'm obsessed with innocent civilians being slaughtered because of a whacko ideology."
That doesn't make you the good guy, it makes you the purveyor of atrocities.
It worked for Putin.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 19, 2023, 07:29:50 PM
You're "exhilarated" over a childishly naive fantasy where the U.S. unilaterally invades the Middle East, not to mention Russia, and seizes all their land and resources, in the course of three weeks, killing millions of people in the process.
That doesn't make you the good guy, it makes you the purveyor of atrocities.
No, his plan only includes killing the bad guys. It's fool-proof
House of representatives leadership.
I'm just wondering why Muggsy is still living his lavish lifestyle with his expensive coffee and saffron instead of hightailing it over to Israel to help out.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on October 19, 2023, 07:40:48 PM
I'm just wondering why Muggsy is still living his lavish lifestyle with his expensive coffee and saffron instead of hightailing it over to Israel to help out.
I don't live lavishly.
Quote from: tower912 on October 19, 2023, 07:37:12 PM
House of representatives leadership.
Topper would get a lot more done
Agreed.
Scoop Beersheba summit
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 07:27:21 PM
Not exactly. I will keep the details to myself .
Honest question Muggsy. Are you hinting that you would use nuclear weapons on Iran?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 19, 2023, 06:48:53 PM
Wrong. I'm not "obsessed" with Iran. I'm obsessed with innocent civilians being slaughtered because of a whacko ideology. I'm obsessed with people not understanding who our enemies are. And I'm obsessed with the United States being the dominant power of the world in lieu of China.
nm not worth.
With a brother and sister-in-law in Israel, they occupy most of my worries about what's going on over there. And obviously, I am concerned about the lives and safety of all innocent people in harm's way. But also, some of my thoughts are with the courageous journalists who are risking their lives to keep the world informed about this war.
According to the AP: At least 19 journalists have been killed since the start of the war, including 15 in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza in the past two weeks than the total number who died in the territory since 2001, said Sherif Mansour, Middle East and North Africa coordinator for the Committee to Protect Journalists.
Quote from: MU82 on October 20, 2023, 08:23:10 AM
With a brother and sister-in-law in Israel, they occupy most of my worries about what's going on over there. And obviously, I am concerned about the lives and safety of all innocent people in harm's way. But also, some of my thoughts are with the courageous journalists who are risking their lives to keep the world informed about this war.
According to the AP: At least 19 journalists have been killed since the start of the war, including 15 in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza in the past two weeks than the total number who died in the territory since 2001, said Sherif Mansour, Middle East and North Africa coordinator for the Committee to Protect Journalists.
Medical staff as well, many have been killed.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 08:24:20 AM
Medical staff as well, many have been killed.
Chit happens
Quote from: MU82 on October 20, 2023, 08:23:10 AM
With a brother and sister-in-law in Israel, they occupy most of my worries about what's going on over there. And obviously, I am concerned about the lives and safety of all innocent people in harm's way. But also, some of my thoughts are with the courageous journalists who are risking their lives to keep the world informed about this war.
According to the AP: At least 19 journalists have been killed since the start of the war, including 15 in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza in the past two weeks than the total number who died in the territory since 2001, said Sherif Mansour, Middle East and North Africa coordinator for the Committee to Protect Journalists.
Journalists are well paid. Its watt dey signed up four, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 20, 2023, 08:29:34 AM
Journalists are well paid.
And, in other news, the Kansas City Royals just mowed through the American League and are prepared to play the New York Mets in the World Series.
The Vanderbilt Commodores remained atop the AP Top 25 football rankings today, followed by Stanford, Duke, Rice, Northwestern and Colorado. Notre Dame continued its five-year reign as the worst of the Bottom 10.
Finally, in other news, it was announced today that Marquette University would, after a 63-year absence, reinstate Division 1 college football. The University also announced that an unnamed donor has given $1 billion to build a new football-only stadium just south of Marquette's existing campus, to be called Real Chili Field. Marquette officials said they intend to join the Big 10 next year and already, pundits said Marquette's football team is expected to be better than Purdue, Indiana, Minnesota and Wisconsin.
4ever is trolling.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 20, 2023, 08:29:34 AM
Journalists are well paid. Its watt dey signed up four, aina?
Some are well paid, sure. Did they sign up for putting their lives on the line? Maybe some did.
By the same token, I guess, everyone who chooses to live in Israel does so knowing that several countries around them - not to mention every terrorist group - wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Therefore, we should have no sympathy or empathy for any Israelis now because "its watt dey signed up four, aina?"
Quote from: MU82 on October 20, 2023, 08:23:10 AM
With a brother and sister-in-law in Israel, they occupy most of my worries about what's going on over there. And obviously, I am concerned about the lives and safety of all innocent people in harm's way. But also, some of my thoughts are with the courageous journalists who are risking their lives to keep the world informed about this war.
According to the AP: At least 19 journalists have been killed since the start of the war, including 15 in Gaza. More journalists have been killed in Gaza in the past two weeks than the total number who died in the territory since 2001, said Sherif Mansour, Middle East and North Africa coordinator for the Committee to Protect Journalists.
Can't imagine, 82, I am sending all my love into the universe for your family.
We need more than "Don't. Don't" from our President regarding Iran and its proxies. In the last few days Americans have been directly attacked by these scumbags, not to mention those killed and are hostages in Gaza. We need to be very specific with the Iranian regime that we will act against THEM with force.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:17:07 AM
We need more than "Don't. Don't" from our President regarding Iran and its proxies. In the last few days Americans have been directly attacked by these scumbags, not to mention those killed and are hostages in Gaza. We need to be very specific with the Iranian regime that we will act against THEM with force.
Don't.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 09:24:26 AM
Don't.
This "Don't" is just silly. It's not deterring them whatsoever.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:26:20 AM
This "Don't" is just silly. It's not deterring them whatsoever.
YOU are calling someone else silly?
I think that is a bridge too far.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 20, 2023, 08:29:34 AM
Journalists are well paid. Its watt dey signed up four, aina?
I'm not going to think twice about police officers killed in the line of duty, it's what they signed up for. Same with firefighters. Same with military.
Thank you for putting our minds at ease with this brilliant philosophy.
Peackin' of too far bridges, hey?
'Breaking Biden' Author: Five Takeaways from Joe's Duplicitous Oval Office Address About Ukraine
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:17:07 AM
We need more than "Don't. Don't" from our President regarding Iran and its proxies. In the last few days Americans have been directly attacked by these scumbags, not to mention those killed and are hostages in Gaza. We need to be very specific with the Iranian regime that we will act against THEM with force.
Gym Jordan has some free time to go wrestle the mullahs
This thread has been informative, contentious, at times ridiculous, but largely civil and honestly refreshing given the direction some of the heated topics on this board have went. So a sincere kudos to everyone (not sarcastic), part of the reason this is, at its best, a great board and more than just some college hoops nerds.
That being said, I closed the open Scoop windows I had last night and signed off of social media after a day that, admittedly, I got a bit in the weeds in terms of reading, scrolling, etc... I gave my 1 year old son a bath and completely unintentionally had sort of out of body reflective moment...I know many of you have young kids, some have young grandkids. Take some time today and especially this weekend and just hug them and be thankful for the situation that they are in. Regardless of where you lean in the conflict, there are scared kids all over. From kids in Gaza who lost family or their lives, to those in Israel who went through the same, from refugee camps, to my very affluent business associate in Tel Aviv who still had to make a game, with his 2 and 5 year olds, out of stocking and preparing their bomb/safety shelter at home last week to keep them level and not freaked out.
We strive to do the best for our kids and sometimes we lose track of how truly fortunate they are in the grand scheme, no matter the comparison set here in the US.
Now back to using Sesame Street for teaching my son how we should best use tactical nukes to eliminate the Mullahs
Quote from: JWags85 on October 20, 2023, 09:51:40 AM
This thread has been informative, contentious, at times ridiculous, but largely civil and honestly refreshing given the direction some of the heated topics on this board have went. So a sincere kudos to everyone (not sarcastic), part of the reason this is, at its best, a great board and more than just some college hoops nerds.
That being said, I closed the open Scoop windows I had last night and signed off of social media after a day that, admittedly, I got a bit in the weeds in terms of reading, scrolling, etc... I gave my 1 year old son a bath and completely unintentionally had sort of out of body reflective moment...I know many of you have young kids, some have young grandkids. Take some time today and especially this weekend and just hug them and be thankful for the situation that they are in. Regardless of where you lean in the conflict, there are scared kids all over. From kids in Gaza who lost family or their lives, to those in Israel who went through the same, from refugee camps, to my very affluent business associate in Tel Aviv who still had to make a game, with his 2 and 5 year olds, out of stocking and preparing their bomb/safety shelter at home last week to keep them level and not freaked out.
We strive to do the best for our kids and sometimes we lose track of how truly fortunate they are in the grand scheme, no matter the comparison set here in the US.
Now back to using Sesame Street for teaching my son how we should best use tactical nukes to eliminate the Mullahs
What do you think Kindergartners are learning in Gazan schools JWags?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:59:09 AM
What do you think Kindergartners are learning in Gazan schools JWags?
Probably CRT
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:17:07 AM
We need more than "Don't. Don't" from our President regarding Iran and its proxies. In the last few days Americans have been directly attacked by these scumbags, not to mention those killed and are hostages in Gaza. We need to be very specific with the Iranian regime that we will act against THEM with force.
Muggsy, is part of your "5-point plan" using nuclear weapons on Iran?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 20, 2023, 09:51:40 AM
This thread has been informative, contentious, at times ridiculous, but largely civil and honestly refreshing given the direction some of the heated topics on this board have went. So a sincere kudos to everyone (not sarcastic), part of the reason this is, at its best, a great board and more than just some college hoops nerds.
That being said, I closed the open Scoop windows I had last night and signed off of social media after a day that, admittedly, I got a bit in the weeds in terms of reading, scrolling, etc... I gave my 1 year old son a bath and completely unintentionally had sort of out of body reflective moment...I know many of you have young kids, some have young grandkids. Take some time today and especially this weekend and just hug them and be thankful for the situation that they are in. Regardless of where you lean in the conflict, there are scared kids all over. From kids in Gaza who lost family or their lives, to those in Israel who went through the same, from refugee camps, to my very affluent business associate in Tel Aviv who still had to make a game, with his 2 and 5 year olds, out of stocking and preparing their bomb/safety shelter at home last week to keep them level and not freaked out.
We strive to do the best for our kids and sometimes we lose track of how truly fortunate they are in the grand scheme, no matter the comparison set here in the US.
Now back to using Sesame Street for teaching my son how we should best use tactical nukes to eliminate the Mullahs
I'll echo that I've appreciated this thread. I haven't jumped in much because I prefer to listen on topics that I don't feel I have a strong enough understanding on. But I've been struck by how many times on this thread I've found myself agreeing with people on seemingly opposite sides of this issue. I think that speaks to how complicated this situation is and how there are no easy answers (most obvious statement ever).
Even after all the reflection, education, and discussion that's occurred since I still don't feel confident saying much on the topic definitively. The few things I can say with confidence are:
Hamas is an evil organization and what they did is evil.
Israel has often been a bad actor towards Palestine and while they bear no responsibility for what Hamas did, they do bear some responsibility for the conditions that allowed for the rise of Hamas. That may sound like splitting hairs but I think its an important distinction.
Israel has to respond with some level of force. Hamas has demonstrated that they are currently capable of inflicting a horrific amount of damage on Israeli citizens and to not respond by crippling them would be negligent.
I wish Israel's response was more measured and targeted than it has been. I have not nearly enough expertise to understand if a more measured and targeted response that is still effective is even possible.
I don't want the US playing offense here. I am fine with them helping play defense.
Crippling Hamas cannot be the only goal. There has to be a path towards rebuilding Palestine and allowing it to thrive. There will not be peace here until the conditions that allow organizations like Hamas to prosper there are removed. Best way to achieve that? I have no idea.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:26:20 AM
This "Don't" is just silly. It's not deterring them whatsoever.
I forget, has anyone, outside of fringe terror groups launched any attacks on Israel?
Or are you just imagining things, or watching too much cable news again?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:59:09 AM
What do you think Kindergartners are learning in Gazan schools JWags?
How to dodge bombs, run from gunfire, and first aid probably.
Other than that, the same stuff anyone else would learn in school.
What is the implication here, Muggs?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 20, 2023, 10:25:13 AM
I'll echo that I've appreciated this thread. I haven't jumped in much because I prefer to listen on topics that I don't feel I have a strong enough understanding on. But I've been struck by how many times on this thread I've found myself agreeing with people on seemingly opposite sides of this issue. I think that speaks to how complicated this situation is and how there are no easy answers (most obvious statement ever).
Even after all the reflection, education, and discussion that's occurred since I still don't feel confident saying much on the topic definitively. The few things I can say with confidence are:
Hamas is an evil organization and what they did is evil.
Israel has often been a bad actor towards Palestine and while they bear no responsibility for what Hamas did, they do bear some responsibility for the conditions that allowed for the rise of Hamas. That may sound like splitting hairs but I think its an important distinction.
Israel has to respond with some level of force. Hamas has demonstrated that they are currently capable of inflicting a horrific amount of damage on Israeli citizens and to not respond by crippling them would be negligent.
I wish Israel's response was more measured and targeted than it has been. I have not nearly enough expertise to understand if a more measured and targeted response that is still effective is even possible.
I don't want the US playing offense here. I am fine with them helping play defense.
Crippling Hamas cannot be the only goal. There has to be a path towards rebuilding Palestine and allowing it to thrive. There will not be peace here until the conditions that allow organizations like Hamas to prosper there are removed. Best way to achieve that? I have no idea.
100%
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 20, 2023, 10:07:58 AM
Muggsy, is part of your "5-point plan" using nuclear weapons on Iran?
Just low yield ones, so as not to totally ruin the oilfields we'll be seizing.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 20, 2023, 09:37:14 AM
Peackin' of too far bridges, hey?
'Breaking Biden' Author: Five Takeaways from Joe's Duplicitous Oval Office Address About Ukraine
I didn't notice that he drooled etc. during his address, I thought he was incapable of communicating?
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on October 20, 2023, 10:43:24 AM
I didn't notice that he drooled etc. during his address, I thought he was incapable of communicating?
I've been told by some pretty smart people that they use body doubles in his speeches
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 09:59:09 AM
What do you think Kindergartners are learning in Gazan schools JWags?
Muggs, I like and respect your wide range of interest and experiences and travels (even when I poke fun at you), but if thats what you took from that, you really need step back and CHILL. Maybe take a weekend off from all news and social media related to the conflict. Cause that is beyond toxic.
I have friends and customers/associates in Israel. I have nieces and nephews at a Jewish Day School in NJ that would have armed guards at their school gates as a result of this...if they hadn't already for a few years after the anti-semitic attacks in the NY area. Their uncle and many cousins/relatives of their father in Tel Aviv have been deeply affected in numerous ways including a family that lost their neighbors to October 7th and then also had a son in the IDF who was killed. And despite all being clearly "pro-Israel" not one of them have embedded themselves in rhetoric as hysterical as you.
As to your question? Are there plenty of Gazan children around Kindergarten age being "programmed" with hate? Sure. But there are tens of thousands more who grow up in normal families and live "normal lives". Every kid in the South doesn't grow up a virulent racist because there are racists all over their community who cling to the Confederate flag. Spend a few minutes and its EASY to find videos of IDF soldiers hanging out with Palestinian kids. Playing soccer, giving high fives, just being kids with IDF around just like an American kid in the burbs would be with local law enforcement they know. Some people post it as PR fodder to defend the IDF, sure, but I see a different positive, its just a glimpse at humanity and another lesson that hate is taught and not ingrained from birth.
As an "online friend" who wants as close to an ideal outcome for Israel as possible, no jokes or jabs at your 5 step plan or crazy fantasies. Truly, coming from me, please try to reframe your aggression and dramatic need for carnage here. For your mental health more than anything. Wish for the absolute complete obliteration of Hamas, 1000%. But temper anything further cause its gonna eat you alive more than it already has.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 10:50:01 AM
I've been told by some pretty smart people that they use body doubles in his speeches
Yeah, body doubles come from Madame Tussauds which is an upgrade from da real life stiff, aina?
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on October 20, 2023, 10:43:24 AM
I didn't notice that he drooled etc. during his address, I thought he was incapable of communicating?
Has trouble readin' da teleprompter wit hiz beady eyes. Did nearly choke 3 different times on his phlegm doe, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 10:02:29 AM
Probably CRT
That made me laugh out loud.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 20, 2023, 11:24:15 AM
Has trouble readin' da teleprompter wit hiz beady eyes. Did nearly choke 3 different times on his phlegm doe, hey?
Have you ever heard your lord and master read from a teleprompter? In one recent attempt, he couldn't say "Hamas."
https://www.indy100.com/politics/trump/donald-trump-hamas-israel-speech
He slurred his way through "Ishrael" in another. He reads at about a 4th-grade level, so I guess it's no surprise.
He also makes every single speech about himself.
And, as we've already established, he has spent years currying support from antisemites, and giving the very fine people among them cover, aid and comfort.
But yes, Biden has beady eyes.
I would like to thank JWags and TAMU for for their eloquent statements.
Quote from: tower912 on October 20, 2023, 01:36:29 PM
I would like to thank JWags and TAMU for for their eloquent statements.
Agreed.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 08:55:28 AM
Can't imagine, 82, I am sending all my love into the universe for your family.
absolutely agree here 21. for most of us, this is beyond comprehension. while we are getting worked up about someone cutting us off in traffic, there are many(too many) trying to survive real terror, finding food, water and shelter. serious prayers flying out to the innocents who are distressed and to those who are in charge of making the right decisions to clean this mess up. hang in there 82! despite our exchanges, peace and godspeed
Quote from: JWags85 on October 20, 2023, 10:59:53 AM
Muggs, I like and respect your wide range of interest and experiences and travels (even when I poke fun at you), but if thats what you took from that, you really need step back and CHILL. Maybe take a weekend off from all news and social media related to the conflict. Cause that is beyond toxic.
I have friends and customers/associates in Israel. I have nieces and nephews at a Jewish Day School in NJ that would have armed guards at their school gates as a result of this...if they hadn't already for a few years after the anti-semitic attacks in the NY area. Their uncle and many cousins/relatives of their father in Tel Aviv have been deeply affected in numerous ways including a family that lost their neighbors to October 7th and then also had a son in the IDF who was killed. And despite all being clearly "pro-Israel" not one of them have embedded themselves in rhetoric as hysterical as you.
As to your question? Are there plenty of Gazan children around Kindergarten age being "programmed" with hate? Sure. But there are tens of thousands more who grow up in normal families and live "normal lives". Every kid in the South doesn't grow up a virulent racist because there are racists all over their community who cling to the Confederate flag. Spend a few minutes and its EASY to find videos of IDF soldiers hanging out with Palestinian kids. Playing soccer, giving high fives, just being kids with IDF around just like an American kid in the burbs would be with local law enforcement they know. Some people post it as PR fodder to defend the IDF, sure, but I see a different positive, its just a glimpse at humanity and another lesson that hate is taught and not ingrained from birth.
As an "online friend" who wants as close to an ideal outcome for Israel as possible, no jokes or jabs at your 5 step plan or crazy fantasies. Truly, coming from me, please try to reframe your aggression and dramatic need for carnage here. For your mental health more than anything. Wish for the absolute complete obliteration of Hamas, 1000%. But temper anything further cause its gonna eat you alive more than it already has.
I appreciate your thoughts but the USA racist Confederate analogy is a stretch JWags. The vast majority of Palestinian children are taught to hate through their textbooks and teachers. That doesn't mean there aren't "normal" families, or that these kids are to blame at a young age, but the antisemitism across the entire Arab and Islamic world is ubiquitous to put it mildly. See Malaysia's govt. statements as an example.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 08:55:28 AM
Can't imagine, 82, I am sending all my love into the universe for your family.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 20, 2023, 02:39:18 PM
absolutely agree here 21. for most of us, this is beyond comprehension. while we are getting worked up about someone cutting us off in traffic, there are many(too many) trying to survive real terror, finding food, water and shelter. serious prayers flying out to the innocents who are distressed and to those who are in charge of making the right decisions to clean this mess up. hang in there 82! despite our exchanges, peace and godspeed
Thanks to both of you.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 02:59:56 PM
I appreciate your thoughts but the USA racist Confederate analogy is a stretch JWags. The vast majority of Palestinian children are taught to hate through their textbooks and teachers. That doesn't mean there aren't "normal" families, or that these kids are to blame at a young age, but the antisemitism across the entire Arab and Islamic world is ubiquitous to put it mildly. See Malaysia's govt. statements as an example.
Show your work. Where did you find out that the vast majority of children are taught to hate.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 03:08:21 PM
Show your work. Where did you find out that the vast majority of children are taught to hate.
I've seen the textbooks...as well as the reactions across the world from this massacre.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 03:10:32 PM
I've seen the textbooks...as well as the reactions across the world from this massacre.
Sure you did. No chance you just made that up. ::)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 03:17:59 PM
Sure you did. No chance you just made that up. ::)
Uh.....no. Look at the UNWRA textbooks. The entire organization there is a freaking joke.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 03:19:47 PM
Uh.....no. Look at the UNWRA textbooks. The entire organization there is a freaking joke.
Be specific. You said something specific. Now show me where Palestinian children are taught hatred via their school text books.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 03:19:47 PM
Uh.....no. Look at the UNWRA textbooks. The entire organization there is a freaking joke.
Muggsy, is part of your five-point plan using nuclear weapons on Iran?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 20, 2023, 03:33:59 PM
Muggsy, is part of your five-point plan using nuclear weapons on Iran?
Rambo seems to be resisting answering that one.
Quote from: MU82 on October 20, 2023, 04:00:59 PM
Rambo seems to be resisting answering that one.
Didn't Rambo go and actually do something, rather than sit at his keyboard and call for killing millions of people while working on his saffron recipes?
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 15, 2023, 04:59:22 PM
Look back to how the Allies handled the end and aftermath of World War II. Rather than punishing the Axis powers, the propped up Japan and Germany, learning from the mistakes of the post-WWI fallout that led Germany right back to war less than 2 decades later. Those countries became industrial, economic, and democratic powers. They became some of our most important allies in the generations to come. Helping our enemies created allies.
But what else did we do? We dropped bombs to send a warning to the Soviet Union. That led to them pursuing the atomic bomb themselves, the Cold War, and our biggest geopolitical enemy for generations. We also bombed Palestinians out of their homes and helped create what turned into an apartheid state in Israel. Rather than the Allies being willing to cede territory of their own for a new Jewish home state, they deliberately created the situation that led to where we are now.
None of this excuses Hamas. What they did was terrible, awful, evil. But if the response is to raze Gaza, to punish 2 million Palestinians for the actions of a minority, we WILL create a bigger problem down the line. Because that is flawed thinking born out by generations of matching violence with violence. Give them the opportunity to thrive, like we did with Germany and Japan, and they will thrive. Give them hate and they will revisit that hate on you.
We did punish the hell out of the Axis powers. Germany was split into two countries for 40 years. East Germany had a big wall around it (sound familiar) and was effectively an open-air prison (sound familiar). Anyone thinking of leaving was murdered and left to rot on the barbed wire as a warning for others who harbored similar thoughts.
West Germany was run by Allied Generals, most notably George Marshall in Germany and Douglas MacArthur in Japan. Effectively, they were colonized (sound familiar). Germany lived as an anpartied state until 1989 (sound familiar).
And why did the Germans not fight back to these conditions? Why did they just shut up and make BMWs until they were a manufacturing power?
Because one side overwhelmingly won, they demanded and got
unconditional surrender. This is how peace is achieved. One side has to win overwhelmingly, and the other side succumbs.
I bring this up as this goes to the "proportional response." What is the appropriate proportional response by Israel? To answer this, you have to define the problem.
Israel defines the problem as an attack on their very existence, and if they lose this fight, it will be nothing short of a second holocaust. They believe they cannot lose this fight, and "what it takes" to win, they will do.To this end, Israel points to the "proportional responses" in WW2. To get Germany to succumb, the Allied powers fire-bombed Dresden between February 13 - 15, 1945. At least 25,000 civilians (some estimates have it much higher) were incinerated in less than 48 hours. The intention and message were clear ... give up. The same thing happened in Japan in August 1945. Seventy thousand people were killed in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The purpose was to tell the Japanese they would give up and unconditionally surrender.
A lasting peace is finally achieved when one side so thoroughly wins that the outcome is unconditional surrender.
This is how you get peace in the Middle East or anywhere else with unresolvable conflict. It is ugly and horrible to look at. But the alternative of not winning and not getting an unconditional surrender is worrying about your continued existence.
Quote from: MU82 on October 20, 2023, 04:00:59 PM
Rambo seems to be resisting answering that one.
I'm not resisting anything. You should be screaming from the rooftops about the myriad of takes and asinine moral equivalency people are intimating here regarding this horrific situation. There are a lot of people on the wrong side MU82, I'm not one of them. I want you to ask yourself point-blank what some of the squadlike people and all of us posting would write if there were KKK rallies all over college campuses yelling "Dylan Roof was right"? Do you think they would simply be insouciant and accept it? Would you and others state that college President's not doing a fking thing about it is "free speech"? I'm gonna call b-crape.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 03:25:31 PM
Be specific. You said something specific. Now show me where Palestinian children are taught hatred via their school text books.
Googled
https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-still-include-hate-antisemitism-despite-pledge-to-remove-watchdog/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-still-include-hate-antisemitism-despite-pledge-to-remove-watchdog/)
And to answer "would I use a nuclear" weapon on Iran I will just state emphatically thaf I would eliminate their chances getting a nuclear weapon. Ever. If that means we would have to nuke ourselves to take out their facilities? I'm not against it but I don't think it would be necessary.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 04:11:21 PM
We did punish the hell out of the Axis powers. Germany was split into two countries for 40 years. East Germany had a big wall around it (sound familiar) and was effectively an open-air prison (sound familiar). Anyone thinking of leaving was murdered and left to rot on the barbed wire as a warning for others who harbored similar thoughts.
West Germany was run by Allied Generals, most notably George Marshall in Germany and Douglas MacArthur in Japan. Effectively, they were colonized (sound familiar). Germany lived as an anpartied state until 1989 (sound familiar).
And why did the Germans not fight back to these conditions? Why did they just shut up and make BMWs until they were a manufacturing power?
Because one side overwhelmingly won, they demanded and got unconditional surrender. This is how peace is achieved. One side has to win overwhelmingly, and the other side succumbs.
I bring this up as this goes to the "proportional response." What is the appropriate proportional response by Israel? To answer this, you have to define the problem.
Israel defines the problem as an attack on their very existence, and if they lose this fight, it will be nothing short of a second holocaust. They believe they cannot lose this fight, and "what it takes" to win, they will do.
To this end, Israel points to the "proportional responses" in WW2. To get Germany to succumb, the Allied powers fire-bombed Dresden between February 13 - 15, 1945. At least 25,000 civilians (some estimates have it much higher) were incinerated in less than 48 hours. The intention and message were clear ... give up. The same thing happened in Japan in August 1945. Seventy thousand people were killed in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The purpose was to tell the Japanese they would give up and unconditionally surrender.
A lasting peace is finally achieved when one side so thoroughly wins that the outcome is unconditional surrender.
This is how you get peace in the Middle East or anywhere else with unresolvable conflict. It is ugly and horrible to look at. But the alternative of not winning and not getting an unconditional surrender is worrying about your continued existence.
Germany surrendered because the Fuhrer committed suicide.
Germany wouldn't have been partitioned until 1989 if not for the whole Cold War thingy.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:12:05 PM
I'm not resisting anything. You should be screaming from the rooftops about the myriad of takes and asinine moral equivalency people are intimating here regarding this horrific situation. There are a lot of people on the wrong side MU82, I'm not one of them. I want you to ask yourself point-blank what some of the squadlike people and all of us posting would write if there were KKK rallies all over college campuses yelling "Dylan Roof was right"? Do you think they would simply be insouciant and accept it? Would you and others state that college President's not doing a fking thing about it is "free speech"? I'm gonna call b-crape.
You're the hero here
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 04:18:06 PM
You're the hero here
And you continue to have no spine or morals.
Quote from: tower912 on October 20, 2023, 01:36:29 PM
I would like to thank JWags and TAMU for for their eloquent statements.
Also, agreed.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:12:05 PM
I'm not resisting anything. You should be screaming from the rooftops about the myriad of takes and asinine moral equivalency people are intimating here regarding this horrific situation. There are a lot of people on the wrong side MU82, I'm not one of them. I want you to ask yourself point-blank what some of the squadlike people and all of us posting would write if there were KKK rallies all over college campuses yelling "Dylan Roof was right"? Do you think they would simply be insouciant and accept it? Would you and others state that college President's not doing a fking thing about it is "free speech"? I'm gonna call b-crape.
Had to look up insouciant, that's a great word, and no one here is being insouciant or accepting anything. Even the people you have proclaimed antisemitic have not been casual or accepting of what was done to Israel.
Yes, I imagine we would have a fruitful debate regarding your other examples. KKK speech is protected and disgusting. I don't think you'd find anyone who says Dylan Roof was right, whatever that even means, he's a murderer and a piece of crap, like Hamas who murdered innocent Israelis/non-Israelis.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:15:18 PM
And to answer "would I use a nuclear" weapon on Iran I will just state emphatically thaf I would eliminate their chances getting a nuclear weapon. Ever. If that means we would have to nuke ourselves to take out their facilities? I'm not against it but I don't think it would be necessary.
Am I misreading this, Muggs, you're okay with nuking ourselves? Like innocent Americans? Truly asking, as it sounds strange.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 04:24:29 PM
Am I misreading this, Muggs, you're okay with nuking ourselves? Like innocent Americans? Truly asking, as it sounds strange.
Fentanyl is very popular right now and it's likely more than one person on Scoop has a habit
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:18:49 PM
And you continue to have no spine or morals.
Not worth it
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:18:49 PM
And you continue to have no spine or morals.
Muggs, I don't think this is fair even if you're in disagreement. Being a warmonger doesn't equal having a spine, strong, military force responses don't equate to having a spine. We are discussing atrocities and war, I'm not sure morals is as cut and dry as you're making it out to be by your very own examples. This is not easy, Muggs, it's death and destruction, not for anyone.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:12:05 PM
I'm not resisting anything. You should be screaming from the rooftops about the myriad of takes and asinine moral equivalency people are intimating here regarding this horrific situation. There are a lot of people on the wrong side MU82, I'm not one of them. I want you to ask yourself point-blank what some of the squadlike people and all of us posting would write if there were KKK rallies all over college campuses yelling "Dylan Roof was right"? Do you think they would simply be insouciant and accept it? Would you and others state that college President's not doing a fking thing about it is "free speech"? I'm gonna call b-crape.
I think you mean well, Muggs, but you sound unhinged. You and a few others here are going the Joseph McCarthy route, effectively calling out anybody who doesn't agree 100% with you a "Jew hater." To use one of your pet phrases, it's unacceptable.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 20, 2023, 04:12:59 PM
Googled
https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-still-include-hate-antisemitism-despite-pledge-to-remove-watchdog/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-still-include-hate-antisemitism-despite-pledge-to-remove-watchdog/)
Okay, next factor. Vast majority. Which is what he said.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 03:19:47 PM
Uh.....no. Look at the UNWRA textbooks. The entire organization there is a freaking joke.
Jewish academics indicate that Jewish schools teach children to hate Palestinians.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/07/israeli-school-racism-claim (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/07/israeli-school-racism-claim)
Teaching hate, no matter what the context is terrible. It is a massive part of the problem. Kids grow up hating something they don't even know.
It is part of the cycle of violence over there.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 04:46:08 PM
Wish you would have left your post up.
No, this is too emotional for Muggs and he can't differentiate support for Israel and their response versus those here who disagree with use of American troops, military or weapons in other arenas. He's not changing his mind
Quote from: JWags85 on October 20, 2023, 09:51:40 AM
This thread has been informative, contentious, at times ridiculous, but largely civil and honestly refreshing given the direction some of the heated topics on this board have went. So a sincere kudos to everyone (not sarcastic), part of the reason this is, at its best, a great board and more than just some college hoops nerds.
That being said, I closed the open Scoop windows I had last night and signed off of social media after a day that, admittedly, I got a bit in the weeds in terms of reading, scrolling, etc... I gave my 1 year old son a bath and completely unintentionally had sort of out of body reflective moment...I know many of you have young kids, some have young grandkids. Take some time today and especially this weekend and just hug them and be thankful for the situation that they are in. Regardless of where you lean in the conflict, there are scared kids all over. From kids in Gaza who lost family or their lives, to those in Israel who went through the same, from refugee camps, to my very affluent business associate in Tel Aviv who still had to make a game, with his 2 and 5 year olds, out of stocking and preparing their bomb/safety shelter at home last week to keep them level and not freaked out.
We strive to do the best for our kids and sometimes we lose track of how truly fortunate they are in the grand scheme, no matter the comparison set here in the US.
Now back to using Sesame Street for teaching my son how we should best use tactical nukes to eliminate the Mullahs
Sorry late to this but it is a thoughtful and heartfelt statement. A lot of us have been lucky enough to travel the world and I think hopefully can come around to the fact that a majority of the average citizen no matter where you are are welcoming, hospitable, and willing to engage. Unfortunately the voices of a few can push policy and rhetoric that reflects poorly on these people and poison the well of good human nature.
I have had candid discussions with (albeit younger) people from countries we regard as our "adversaries" and it seems to almost always come out as that our governments do not speak for us as individuals on everything; and everyone as long as they reciprocate kindness is welcome at the dinner table.
Edit: except ND fans
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 04:54:27 PM
No, this is too emotional for Muggs and he can't differentiate support for Israel and their response versus those here who disagree with use of American troops, military or weapons in other arenas. He's not changing his mind
Nor should we try to change it, but your thoughts are necessary to the discussion, in my opinion. It is emotional to be sure.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 05:03:40 PM
Nor should we try to change it, but your thoughts are necessary to the discussion, in my opinion. It is emotional to be sure.
Thanks for the kind words
Quote from: forgetful on October 20, 2023, 04:51:49 PM
Jewish academics indicate that Jewish schools teach children to hate Palestinians.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/07/israeli-school-racism-claim (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/07/israeli-school-racism-claim)
Teaching hate, no matter what the context is terrible. It is a massive part of the problem. Kids grow up hating something they don't even know.
It is part of the cycle of violence over there.
Do you know who you quote here (the "Jewish academic" criticizing Israel teaching hate in schools)? Her background and what she represents?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-sep-11-mn-31106-story.html
(tl:dr, Forgetful quotes and Isreal critic whose daughter was killed by a suicide bomber in 1997. The Israelis blamed the PLO. She condemns Israel, not the PLO, for her daughter's death. She has been an unhinged critic of Israel ever since. She openly describes herself as "left to far left. The author's even welcomed PLO representatives to her daughter's funeral.)
Forgetful, your rampant antisemitism has been well established. But even this was beyond the pale for you. Yes, I saw it.
I'm referring to what you wrote in this message and left here for 75 minutes before you thought better of it and took it down.
Quote from: forgetful on October 18, 2023, 07:43:13 PM
NM
I'll stop now and let you explain to everyone what you said here before you took it down 75 minutes later.
Then, I will report it to the mods and see what they think.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 05:26:59 PM
Do you know who you quote here (the "Jewish academic" criticizing Israel teaching hate in schools)? Her background and what she represents?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-sep-11-mn-31106-story.html
(tl:dr, Forgetful quotes and Isreal critic whose daughter was killed by a suicide bomber in 1997. The Israelis blamed the PLO. She condemns Israel, not the PLO, for her daughter's death. She has been an unhinged critic of Israel ever since. She openly describes herself as "left to far left. The author's even welcomed PLO representatives to her daughter's funeral.)
Forgetful, your rampant antisemitism has been well established. But even this was beyond the pale. Yes, I saw it.
I'm referring to what you wrote in this message and left here for 75 minutes before you thought better of it and took it down.
I'll stop now and let you explain to everyone what you said here before you took it down 75 minutes later.
Then, I will report it to the mods and see what they think.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/204/425/dee.jpg)
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 04:24:29 PM
Am I misreading this, Muggs, you're okay with nuking ourselves? Like innocent Americans? Truly asking, as it sounds strange.
I meant us nuking them. Sorry.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:15:18 PM
And to answer "would I use a nuclear" weapon on Iran I will just state emphatically thaf I would eliminate their chances getting a nuclear weapon. Ever. If that means we would have to nuke ourselves to take out their facilities? I'm not against it but I don't think it would be necessary.
I'm now very curious how nuking ourselves would help defeat Iran.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 05:26:59 PM
Do you know who you quote here (the "Jewish academic" criticizing Israel teaching hate in schools)? Her background and what she represents?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-sep-11-mn-31106-story.html
(tl:dr, Forgetful quotes and Isreal critic whose daughter was killed by a suicide bomber in 1997. The Israelis blamed the PLO. She condemns Israel, not the PLO, for her daughter's death. She has been an unhinged critic of Israel ever since. She openly describes herself as "left to far left. The author's even welcomed PLO representatives to her daughter's funeral.)
Forgetful, your rampant antisemitism has been well established. But even this was beyond the pale for you. Yes, I saw it.
I'm referring to what you wrote in this message and left here for 75 minutes before you thought better of it and took it down.
I'll stop now and let you explain to everyone what you said here before you took it down 75 minutes later.
Then, I will report it to the mods and see what they think.
(https://i.gifer.com/fxzR.gif)
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 05:26:59 PM
Do you know who you quote here (the "Jewish academic" criticizing Israel teaching hate in schools)? Her background and what she represents?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-sep-11-mn-31106-story.html
(tl:dr, Forgetful quotes and Isreal critic whose daughter was killed by a suicide bomber in 1997. The Israelis blamed the PLO. She condemns Israel, not the PLO, for her daughter's death. She has been an unhinged critic of Israel ever since. She openly describes herself as "left to far left. The author's even welcomed PLO representatives to her daughter's funeral.)
Forgetful, your rampant antisemitism has been well established. But even this was beyond the pale for you. Yes, I saw it.
I'm referring to what you wrote in this message and left here for 75 minutes before you thought better of it and took it down.
I'll stop now and let you explain to everyone what you said here before you took it down 75 minutes later.
Then, I will report it to the mods and see what they think.
Stating I support antisemitism is laughable for many reasons that I will not go into here.
Are you also saying a woman, who is a respected award winning Israeli academic, who grew up in a respected Jewish household and whose daughter was the victim of terrorism is also an antisemite?
You are clearly incapable of understanding that when discussing complicated and difficult global problem one needs to examine all sides of the issue, separate from emotion, and when doing so to use credible and respected sources to the best of ones ability.
And I removed the post, because it wouldn't have advanced discussion here at all and then did not serve a purpose. I'm assuming what you disliked was criticism of the Likud party's official platform, which I quoted directly.
The only thing I want is for no more innocent lives to be lost, that applies equally to all races, religions, nationalities etc.
You've done it now forgetful. Heisey's gonna report you!!!
Quote from: forgetful on October 20, 2023, 05:42:58 PM
Stating I support antisemitism is laughable for many reasons that I will not go into here.
Are you also saying a woman, who is a respected award winning Israeli academic, who grew up in a respected Jewish household and whose daughter was the victim of terrorism is also an antisemite?
You are clearly incapable of understanding that when discussing complicated and difficult global problem one needs to examine all sides of the issue, separate from emotion, and when doing so to use credible and respected sources to the best of ones ability.
And I removed the post, because it wouldn't have advanced discussion here at all and then did not serve a purpose. I'm assuming what you disliked was criticism of the Likud party's official platform, which I quoted directly.
The only thing I want is for no more innocent lives to be lost, that applies equally to all races, religions, nationalities etc.
There are antisemitic Jews as we saw the other day when they were in the capital. I don't know this woman but her being Jewish doesn't mean she isn't prejudiced. We all read the ridiculous comments of Bernie Sanders. "All I want is no more innocent lives lost" is an absolutely moronic take based on what actually happened. It would be like FDR after Pearl Harbor saying we won't fight in the Pacific because innocent lives will be lost. Israeli citizens, not the military, were massacred Forgetful. 1500 of them which proportially would be 37,000 American citizens. My suggestion would be to actually reflect on the events in Israel, in all of its detail on Oct. 7th. Wake the H up.
Quote from: forgetful on October 20, 2023, 05:42:58 PM
Stating I support antisemitism is laughable for many reasons that I will not go into here.
Are you also saying a woman, who is a respected award winning Israeli academic, who grew up in a respected Jewish household and whose daughter was the victim of terrorism is also an antisemite?
You are clearly incapable of understanding that when discussing complicated and difficult global problem one needs to examine all sides of the issue, separate from emotion, and when doing so to use credible and respected sources to the best of ones ability.
And I removed the post, because it wouldn't have advanced discussion here at all and then did not serve a purpose. I'm assuming what you disliked was criticism of the Likud party's official platform, which I quoted directly.
The only thing I want is for no more innocent lives to be lost, that applies equally to all races, religions, nationalities etc.
No, I disliked your reference to not having a problem "from the River to the Sea" and how you thought it was reasonable.
And you're correct. Defending a statement calling for the extermination of the Jewish race will not advance the discussion.
And to be clear on the gravity of this statement, Marc Lamont Hill used these six words in 2018, and CNN immediately fired him because everyone knows what these words mean ... six words you do not have a problem with.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/media/marc-lamont-hill-cnn/index.html
From the sounds of it, Biden and McConnell are on the same page about the joint aid request to congress. They both believe that the Ukraine/Israel/Taiwan & US/Mexican border efforts should be combined and funded as one.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 20, 2023, 05:54:33 PM
From the sounds of it, Biden and McConnell are on the same page about the joint aid request to congress. They both believe that the Ukraine/Israel/Taiwan & US/Mexican border efforts should be combined and funded as one.
But they didn't condemn Bernie Sanders who doesn't want more death, the monster.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 05:52:40 PM
There are antisemitic Jews as we saw the other day when they were in the capital. I don't know this woman but her being Jewish doesn't mean she isn't prejudiced. We all read the ridiculous comments of Bernie Sanders. "All I want is no more innocent lives lost" is an absolutely moronic take based on what actually happened. It would be like FDR after Pearl Harbor saying we won't fight in the Pacific because innocent lives will be lost. Israeli citizens, not the military, were massacred Forgetful. 1500 of them which proportially would be 37,000 American citizens. My suggestion would be to actually reflect on the events in Israel, in all of its detail on Oct. 7th. Wake the H up.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/053/582/1274472685919.png)
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 05:54:16 PM
No, I disliked your reference to not having a problem "from the River to the Sea" and how you thought it was reasonable.
And you're correct. Defending a statement calling for the extermination of the Jewish race will not advance the discussion.
And to be clear on the gravity of this statement, Marc Lamont Hill used these six words in 2018, and CNN immediately fired him because everyone knows what these words mean ... six words you do not have a problem with.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/media/marc-lamont-hill-cnn/index.html
It's interesting to see another person who thinks a free Palestine means the extermination of the Jewish people. You do realize how unhinged that mentality is, right?
No one should take you seriously, since you are clearly not a serious person.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 05:52:40 PM
There are antisemitic Jews as we saw the other day when they were in the capital. I don't know this woman but her being Jewish doesn't mean she isn't prejudiced. We all read the ridiculous comments of Bernie Sanders. "All I want is no more innocent lives lost" is an absolutely moronic take based on what actually happened. It would be like FDR after Pearl Harbor saying we won't fight in the Pacific because innocent lives will be lost. Israeli citizens, not the military, were massacred Forgetful. 1500 of them which proportially would be 37,000 American citizens. My suggestion would be to actually reflect on the events in Israel, in all of its detail on Oct. 7th. Wake the H up.
You can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic you know.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 20, 2023, 05:54:33 PM
From the sounds of it, Biden and McConnell are on the same page about the joint aid request to congress. They both believe that the Ukraine/Israel/Taiwan & US/Mexican border efforts should be combined and funded as one.
(https://images.wsj.net/im-844893?width=1920&height=1080)
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 20, 2023, 05:59:05 PM
You can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic you know.
Yes, it's called Anti-Zionism
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 20, 2023, 05:59:05 PM
You can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic you know.
Also probably shouldn't tell someone who is Jewish what they should or should not believe about Judaism and Israel. That in itself is anti-semitism tbh.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:00:47 PM
Yes, it's called Anti-Zionism
Which is different from antisemitism.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 05:59:38 PM
(https://images.wsj.net/im-844893?width=1920&height=1080)
So, America is supporting Israel with money, military aid and almost certainly intelligence across party lines
What more should they do?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 05:58:54 PM
It's interesting to see another person who thinks a free Palestine means the extermination of the Jewish people. You do realize how unhinged that mentality is, right?
No one should take you seriously, since you are clearly not a serious person.
So, you're redefining "Free Palestine " to mean what you want it to mean. This is the conceit we have. Words and statements mean what we want them to mean, and nothing more.
Please tell us what you think "Free Palestine" means and why the world has been wrong for decades to take it to be a call to exterminate the Jewish Race.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 06:02:26 PM
So, America is supporting Israel with money, military aid and almost certainly intelligence across party lines
What more should they do?
Every single one of our brands need to denounce terrorism. Consider me done eating real chili for them not denouncing to their 183 followers on twitter.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 20, 2023, 05:59:05 PM
You can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic you know.
You can criticize the Israeli government without being antisemitic. That's different from being Anti-Israel and not accepting they have a right to exist based on their history and subsequent events since the Balfour Declaration. If you reject that Israel should be a Jewish homeland, based on whatever borders since 1948, you are antisemitic.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 06:02:16 PM
Which is different from antisemitism.
The ADL thinks otherwise.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-zionism-antisemitism-how-anti-zionist-language-left-and-right-vilifies-jews
While anti-Zionism is indeed antisemitism, anti-Zionism is much more socially acceptable than classic antisemitism. The result is that many anti-Zionist activists can embed historic antisemitic tropes in their criticism of Israel without significant pushback. This report attempts to explicate how this troubling issue manifests in the United States and provides numerous examples of anti-Zionists who espouse classic antisemitic themes in their rhetoric.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 06:08:00 PM
You can criticize the Israeli government without being antisemitic. That's different from being Anti-Israel and not accepting they have a right to exist based on their history and subsequent events since the Balfour Declaration. If you reject that Israel should be a Jewish homeland, based on whatever borders since 1948, you are antisemitic.
Israel has a right exist now. No doubt.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 20, 2023, 06:07:14 PM
Every single one of our brands need to denounce terrorism. Consider me done eating real chili for them not denouncing to their 183 followers on twitter.
There's the rub, aina? Free speech for thee, not for me.
Listen, there are consequences for saying controversial things and if Bernie Sanders not wanting more bloodshed is one of those things, then his constituents will decide his fate.
Demanding someone's speech to match their expectation isn't exactly free
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 05:54:16 PM
No, I disliked your reference to not having a problem "from the River to the Sea" and how you thought it was reasonable.
And you're correct. Defending a statement calling for the extermination of the Jewish race will not advance the discussion.
And to be clear on the gravity of this statement, Marc Lamont Hill used these six words in 2018, and CNN immediately fired him because everyone knows what these words mean ... six words you do not have a problem with.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/media/marc-lamont-hill-cnn/index.html
If you think I said any of that, you are ridiculously wrong.
The concept of "From the River to the Sea" is wrong, and is the cause of all the violence in the Middle East. That is the primary concept that has blocked establishing a two-state solution. You clearly missed, or ignored my entire argument.
I'm not going to restate it all here, because I deleted it since the reasonable people on here (which is the vast vast vast majority) already are aware of some of the historically complicated nuances of the situation, and those that are in the fringe minority calling for bombs to reign down on everyone will ignore, or intentionally misstate/misread what was said, in which case I'm not advancing the discussion and it serves no purpose.
And Muggsy, I've denounced Hamas' actions in this thread multiple times. They are appalling acts of terrorism. Everyone here agrees on that. That doesn't mean we have to start WWIII, and that doesn't mean we (who are not decision makers in any of this) cannot critically evaluate the history of the problem and show compassion to all innocent lives being lost right now.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:05:38 PM
So, you're redefining "Free Palestine " to mean what you want it to mean. This is the conceit we have. Words and statements mean what we want them to mean, and nothing more.
Please tell us what you think "Free Palestine" means and why the world has been wrong for decades to take it to be a call to exterminate the Jewish Race.
I know what you're trying to get at, look, I do. But when people say Free Palestine, they're not calling for the extermination of the Jewish people. Some lunatics in places in the Middle East may, but I assure you when you ask the average Westerner, they do not. They want all of the people in the region to be on equal footing. They want no more wanton destruction and murder. They don't want to see Palestinians being oppressed, they don't want people losing their homes. That's what they mean.
If you want to be overly pedantic that's fine. Go off. Call me names, call everyone names, stamp your foot, break your keyboard. I don't care.
BUT, you're being intellectually disingenuous if you truly believe that when most people say they want to see a free Palestine, they mean, "KILL ALL JEWS".
Quote from: forgetful on October 20, 2023, 06:11:44 PM
If you think I said any of that, you are ridiculously wrong.
The concept of "From the River to the Sea" is wrong, and is the cause of all the violence in the Middle East. That is the primary concept that has blocked establishing a two-state solution. You clearly missed, or ignored my entire argument.
I'm not going to restate it all here, because I deleted it since the reasonable people on here (which is the vast vast vast majority) already are aware of some of the historically complicated nuances of the situation, and those that are in the fringe minority calling for bombs to reign down on everyone will ignore, or intentionally misstate/misread what was said, in which case I'm not advancing the discussion and it serves no purpose.
And Muggsy, I've denounced Hamas' actions in this threat multiple times. They are appalling acts of terrorism. Everyone here agrees on that. That doesn't mean we have to start WWIII, and that doesn't mean we (who are not decision makers in any of this) cannot critically evaluate the history of the problem and show compassion to all innocent lives being lost right now.
Nice dodge, and you might get away with it if there were not 51 pages laced with your antisemitism and moral equivalency.
Further, if it were as innocent as you describe, you would not have deleted it 75 minutes later.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:08:15 PM
The ADL thinks otherwise.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-zionism-antisemitism-how-anti-zionist-language-left-and-right-vilifies-jews
While anti-Zionism is indeed antisemitism, anti-Zionism is much more socially acceptable than classic antisemitism. The result is that many anti-Zionist activists can embed historic antisemitic tropes in their criticism of Israel without significant pushback. This report attempts to explicate how this troubling issue manifests in the United States and provides numerous examples of anti-Zionists who espouse classic antisemitic themes in their rhetoric.
LOL THE ADL.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 06:19:12 PM
LOL THE ADL.
Let's take this a step further. If you can't be critical of Israel the state without being labeled an anti-semite how does one do diplomacy with them?
Am I anti-slav for supporting Ukraine? An islamophobe for criticizing Saudi Arabia?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 20, 2023, 05:59:05 PM
You can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic you know.
Wrong, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 06:23:31 PM
Let's take this a step further. If you can't be critical of Israel the state without being labeled an anti-semite how does one do diplomacy with them?
Am I anti-slav for supporting Ukraine? An islamophobe for criticizing Saudi Arabia?
You clearly don't get it Reeko. Israel is as divided as we are politically. They're not divided about what happened on Oct. 7th.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 06:17:02 PM
I know what you're trying to get at, look, I do. But when people say Free Palestine, they're not calling for the extermination of the Jewish people. Some lunatics in places in the Middle East may, but I assure you when you ask the average Westerner, they do not. They want all of the people in the region to be on equal footing. They want no more wanton destruction and murder. They don't want to see Palestinians being oppressed, they don't want people losing their homes. That's what they mean.
If you want to be overly pedantic that's fine. Go off. Call me names, call everyone names, stamp your foot, break your keyboard. I don't care.
BUT, you're being intellectually disingenuous if you truly believe that when most people say they want to see a free Palestine, they mean, "KILL ALL JEWS".
I assure you when you ask the average Westerner, they do notThis is my point! Uniformed Westerners think it is a Google Maps reference or a nursery rhyme, so they keep repeating it, thinking it is an innocent statement.
This phrase has a specific meaning, and yes, it was created by Luncatics in the Middle East (many of which you think don't lie about errant missiles hitting hospitals), hoping that uniformed Westerners will keep repeating it to make it a mainstream idea.
I'll ask again. From the River to the Sea (the Jordanian River to the Eastern Mediterranean), or the area now known as Isreal, Palestine will be free. So Israel will become Palestine.
So what happens to the 8 million Jews that live there now?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 06:29:44 PM
You clearly don't get it Reeko. Israel is as divided as we are politically. They're not divided about what happened on Oct. 7th.
Who said they were divided about October 7th? What does that have to do with America?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 06:19:12 PM
LOL THE ADL.
What is so funny about this organization and its mission? Why are you laughing at an organization trying to stop hatred of Jewish people just days after the most significant attack on Jews for being Jews since the Holocaust?
Anti-Deformation League
https://www.adl.org/about/mission-and-history
To stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:33:30 PM
What is so funny about this organization and its mission? Why are you laughing at an organization trying to stop hatred of Jewish people just days after the most significant attack on Jews for being Jews since the Holocaust?
Anti-Deformation League
https://www.adl.org/about/mission-and-history
To stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all.
What are your thoughts on Elon Musk's take on the ADL and their thoughts on Elon Musk?
This is actually rather remarkable polling
You almost never get a consensus like this
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F84_ut3XYAAr75d?format=png&name=900x900)
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 06:36:31 PM
What are your thoughts on Elon Musk's take on the ADL and their thoughts on Elon Musk?
Honestly, I don't care.
Secondly, Musk can do a better job of getting the garbage off the platform first before he whines about chasing advertisers off it.
Lastly, it is a good idea to charge $1/year to post (free to read). It will eliminate a lot of bots and force Anon accounts that spread hate to post their true identity with Twitter (because you cannot process a payment, even for $1, without it.)
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:41:31 PM
Honestly, I don't care.
Secondly, Musk can do a better job of getting the garbage off the platform first before he whines about chasing advertisers off it.
Lastly, it is a good idea to charge $1/year to post (free to read). It will eliminate a lot of bots and force Anon accounts that spread hate to post their true identity with Twitter (because you cannot process a payment, even for $1, without it.)
Is Musk an anti-semite for blaming the ADL for his advertising woes since they pointed out the rise of anti-Semitic posts on X?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 06:43:09 PM
Is Musk an anti-semite for blaming the ADL for his advertising woes since they pointed out the rise of anti-Semitic posts on X?
I believe he disputes the accusation. So, he is not laughing at them for whatever anti-semites on this board find funny about the ADL.
Again, this was not an issue that I looked into that much. I'm all ears if you want to show Musk's anti-semantic remarks directed at them.
Disagreeing with the ADL about the statistical measures of anti-Semitism on Twitter does not make one a Jew Hater.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 06:29:44 PM
You clearly don't get it Reeko. Israel is as divided as we are politically. They're not divided about what happened on Oct. 7th.
You're right, 4 out of 5 of them blame Bibi.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:33:30 PM
What is so funny about this organization and its mission? Why are you laughing at an organization trying to stop hatred of Jewish people just days after the most significant attack on Jews for being Jews since the Holocaust?
Anti-Deformation League
https://www.adl.org/about/mission-and-history
To stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all.
Theyre ridiculous on their face. In their view Israel can do no wrong and any criticism of Israel gets someone labeled an antisemitic. Which, is stupid to reasonable people.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 20, 2023, 06:38:29 PM
This is actually rather remarkable polling
You almost never get a consensus like this
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F84_ut3XYAAr75d?format=png&name=900x900)
I believe when I suggested a ceasefire and deescalation I was told that I supported Hamas. Lol. Guess I'm not alone in hoping for peace.
:-Xj
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:49:13 PM
I believe he disputes the accusation. So, he is not laughing at them for whatever anti-semites on this board find funny about the ADL.
Again, this was not an issue that I looked into that much. I'm all ears if you want to show Musk's anti-semantic remarks directed at them.
Disagreeing with the ADL about the statistical measures of anti-Semitism on Twitter does not make one a Jew Hater.
Disagreeing with Israel policy doesn't make one a Jew Hater either
Anyway, here is the ADL statement about Musk's X doings
https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-statement-xtwitter
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 06:55:11 PM
I believe when I suggested a ceasefire and deescalation I was told that I supported Hamas. Lol. Guess I'm not alone in hoping for peace.
Hamas and PIJ keep firing hundreds of rockets into Israel every day.
It is currently at 7,380 From October 7 to today.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-rocket-and-mortar-attacks-against-israel
Why don't you, or anyone else, call for them to stop? Why only Israel?
And when one of those rockets hit a Jewish Hospital, why is this not global news?
And yes, on October 11, a Hamas Rocket hit the MATERNITY and CHILDREN's wing of the Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIOmAwFqubQ
What is the appropriate response from Israel to this terror? What should they do to stop it?
Ask these questions in a poll, and let's see the response.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:05:47 PM
Hamas and PIJ keep firing hundreds of rockets into Israel every day.
It is currently at 7,380 From October 7 to today.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-rocket-and-mortar-attacks-against-israel
Why don't you, or anyone else, call for them to stop? Why only Israel?
And when one of those rockets hit a Jewish Hospital, why is this not global news?
And yes, on October 11, a Hamas Rocket hit the MATERNITY and CHILDREN's wing of the Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIOmAwFqubQ
What is the appropriate response from Israel to this terror? What should they do to stop it?
Ask these questions in a poll, and let's see the response.
Israel's response isn't dependent on an American poll. I simply don't understand the concern people have for what Americans think about this. Israel doesn't care nor should they
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 06:56:30 PM
:-Xj
Disagreeing with Israel policy doesn't make one a Jew Hater either
Anyway, here is the ADL statement about Musk's X doings
https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-statement-xtwitter
Nothing wrong with political disagreements.
But we are talking about something else. Sultan (which means "leader of Muslims') started this conversation with this.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 20, 2023, 05:59:05 PM
You can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic, you know.
And I said that was anti-Zionism, which the ADL said is a form of anti-semitism, which got Hards laughing.
So, the leader of Muslims (you reap what you sow with your handle in this thread, Sultan) started it by saying he does not think being against the existence of a Jewish state (which is precisely what ANTI-ISREAL means) means you are not anti-Semitic.
Even his Muslim followers would disagree with him about this.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 07:08:56 PM
Israel's response isn't dependent on an American poll. I simply don't understand the concern people have for what Americans think about this. Israel doesn't care nor should they
Well said!
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:05:47 PM
Hamas and PIJ keep firing hundreds of rockets into Israel every day.
It is currently at 7,380 From October 7 to today.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-rocket-and-mortar-attacks-against-israel
Why don't you, or anyone else, call for them to stop? Why only Israel?
And when one of those rockets hit a Jewish Hospital, why is this not global news?
And yes, on October 11, a Hamas Rocket hit the MATERNITY and CHILDREN's wing of the Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIOmAwFqubQ
What is the appropriate response from Israel to this terror? What should they do to stop it?
Ask these questions in a poll, and let's see the response.
I've said from the beginning that both sides should stop. Again, you're not a serious person.'
Oddly though, I'm not sure I've heard you say a single time. Kinda weird. Nor have you addressed Israels indiscriminate bombing of the Gaza strip that has resulted in thousands of dead, including at least a thousand children.
Hmmmm... kinda strange, man.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:13:56 PM
Nothing wrong with political disagreements.
But we are talking about something else. Sultan (which means "leader of Muslims') started this conversation with this.
And I said that was anti-Zionism, which the ADL said is a form of anti-semitism, which got Hards laughing.
So, the leader of Muslims (you reap what you sow with your handle in this thread, Sultan) started it by saying he does not think being against the existence of a Jewish state (which is precisely what ANTI-ISREAL means) means you are not anti-Semitic.
Even his Muslim followers would disagree with him about this.
You're speaking in absolutes. Anti-Israel can mean disagreeing with Israeli policy. If you can't disagree with anything Israel does or has done, that's simply anti-American.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 07:17:48 PM
You're speaking in absolutes. Anti-Israel can mean disagreeing with Israeli policy. If you can't disagree with anything Israel does or has done, that's simply anti-American.
If Ds disagree with Rs, are they anti-American?
If Rs disagree with Ds are they anti-American?
No, and no
So, this is not the same as someone saying they are anti-American.
"Rep. Summer Lee, D-Pa., a member of the far-left "Squad," uncharacteristically declared "all lives do matter" during a press conference calling for a ceasefire in the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas."
so there ya'll have it...it's ok after all i guess since summer just gave it her blessing. you guys just wouldn't listen
i was just ahead of my time next thing ya know, they might even hold blm accountable for all of there financials
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 07:16:14 PM
I've said from the beginning that both sides should stop. Again, you're not a serious person.'
Oddly though, I'm not sure I've heard you say a single time. Kinda weird. Nor have you addressed Israels indiscriminate bombing of the Gaza strip that has resulted in thousands of dead, including at least a thousand children.
Hmmmm... kinda strange, man.
What is not being a serious person is adopting the "good people on both sides" argument that you are saying.
Who said that? I'm having a hard time remembering!
The world is full is hard realities.
Here is my position
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 15, 2023, 04:59:22 PM
Look back to how the Allies handled the end and aftermath of World War II. Rather than punishing the Axis powers, the propped up Japan and Germany, learning from the mistakes of the post-WWI fallout that led Germany right back to war less than 2 decades later. Those countries became industrial, economic, and democratic powers. They became some of our most important allies in the generations to come. Helping our enemies created allies.
But what else did we do? We dropped bombs to send a warning to the Soviet Union. That led to them pursuing the atomic bomb themselves, the Cold War, and our biggest geopolitical enemy for generations. We also bombed Palestinians out of their homes and helped create what turned into an apartheid state in Israel. Rather than the Allies being willing to cede territory of their own for a new Jewish home state, they deliberately created the situation that led to where we are now.
None of this excuses Hamas. What they did was terrible, awful, evil. But if the response is to raze Gaza, to punish 2 million Palestinians for the actions of a minority, we WILL create a bigger problem down the line. Because that is flawed thinking born out by generations of matching violence with violence. Give them the opportunity to thrive, like we did with Germany and Japan, and they will thrive. Give them hate and they will revisit that hate on you.
We did punish the hell out of the Axis powers. Germany was split into two countries for 40 years. East Germany had a big wall around it (sound familiar) and was effectively an open-air prison (sound familiar). Anyone thinking of leaving was murdered and left to rot on the barbed wire as a warning for others who harbored similar thoughts.
West Germany was run by Allied Generals, most notably George Marshall in Germany and Douglas MacArthur in Japan. Effectively, they were colonized (sound familiar). Germany lived as an anpartied state until 1989 (sound familiar).
And why did the Germans not fight back to these conditions? Why did they just shut up and make BMWs until they were a manufacturing power?
Because one side overwhelmingly won, they demanded and got
unconditional surrender. This is how peace is achieved. One side has to win overwhelmingly, and the other side succumbs.
I bring this up as this goes to the "proportional response." What is the appropriate proportional response by Israel? To answer this, you have to define the problem.
Israel defines the problem as an attack on their very existence, and if they lose this fight, it will be nothing short of a second holocaust. They believe they cannot lose this fight, and "what it takes" to win, they will do.To this end, Israel points to the "proportional responses" in WW2. To get Germany to succumb, the Allied powers fire-bombed Dresden between February 13 - 15, 1945. At least 25,000 civilians (some estimates have it much higher) were incinerated in less than 48 hours. The intention and message were clear ... give up. The same thing happened in Japan in August 1945. Seventy thousand people were killed in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The purpose was to tell the Japanese they would give up and unconditionally surrender.
A lasting peace is finally achieved when one side so thoroughly wins that the outcome is unconditional surrender.
This is how you get peace in the Middle East or anywhere else with unresolvable conflict. It is ugly and horrible to look at. But the alternative of not winning and not getting an unconditional surrender is worrying about your continued existence.[/quote]
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:21:20 PM
If Ds disagree with Rs, are they anti-American
If Rs disagree with Ds are they anti-American?
No, and no
So, this is not the same as someone saying they are anti-American.
You're missing the point. Criticism of Israeli policy isn't anti-semitic and if you can't criticize Israeli policy, that's anti-American.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 20, 2023, 07:24:01 PM
"Rep. Summer Lee, D-Pa., a member of the far-left "Squad," uncharacteristically declared "all lives do matter" during a press conference calling for a ceasefire in the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas."
so there ya'll have it...it's ok after all i guess since summer just gave it her blessing. you guys just wouldn't listen
i was just ahead of my time next thing ya know, they might even hold blm accountable for all of there financials
4 out of 10
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 07:27:47 PM
You're missing the point. Criticism of Israeli policy isn't anti-semitic and if you can't criticize Israeli policy, that's anti-American.
He said ANTI-ISREAL. That has a specific meaning here. It is not the same as saying anti-French.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:32:01 PM
He said ANTI-ISREAL. That has a specific meaning here. It is not the same as saying anti-French.
That's not what he meant.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 07:08:56 PM
Israel's response isn't dependent on an American poll. I simply don't understand the concern people have for what Americans think about this. Israel doesn't care nor should they
Not to mention that a high percentage of people who respond simply lie.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 06:55:11 PM
I believe when I suggested a ceasefire and deescalation I was told that I supported Hamas. Lol. Guess I'm not alone in hoping for peace.
You suggested a cease fire right after the horrific attack on Israeli civilians by Hamas. Then you said only the Israelis could have bombed the hospital in Gaza that the Palestinians bombed.
And then you claimed to be neutral and everyone had a good laugh.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:24:50 PM
What is not being a serious person is adopting the "good people on both sides" argument that you are saying.
Who said that? I'm having a hard time remembering!
The world is full is hard realities.
Here is my position
We did punish the hell out of the Axis powers. Germany was split into two countries for 40 years. East Germany had a big wall around it (sound familiar) and was effectively an open-air prison (sound familiar). Anyone thinking of leaving was murdered and left to rot on the barbed wire as a warning for others who harbored similar thoughts.
West Germany was run by Allied Generals, most notably George Marshall in Germany and Douglas MacArthur in Japan. Effectively, they were colonized (sound familiar). Germany lived as an anpartied state until 1989 (sound familiar).
And why did the Germans not fight back to these conditions? Why did they just shut up and make BMWs until they were a manufacturing power?
Because one side overwhelmingly won, they demanded and got unconditional surrender. This is how peace is achieved. One side has to win overwhelmingly, and the other side succumbs.
I bring this up as this goes to the "proportional response." What is the appropriate proportional response by Israel? To answer this, you have to define the problem.
Israel defines the problem as an attack on their very existence, and if they lose this fight, it will be nothing short of a second holocaust. They believe they cannot lose this fight, and "what it takes" to win, they will do.
To this end, Israel points to the "proportional responses" in WW2. To get Germany to succumb, the Allied powers fire-bombed Dresden between February 13 - 15, 1945. At least 25,000 civilians (some estimates have it much higher) were incinerated in less than 48 hours. The intention and message were clear ... give up. The same thing happened in Japan in August 1945. Seventy thousand people were killed in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The purpose was to tell the Japanese they would give up and unconditionally surrender.
A lasting peace is finally achieved when one side so thoroughly wins that the outcome is unconditional surrender.
This is how you get peace in the Middle East or anywhere else with unresolvable conflict. It is ugly and horrible to look at. But the alternative of not winning and not getting an unconditional surrender is worrying about your continued existence.
So your solution is to treat the Gaza strip like Dresden? Do you think that if Israel goes that route the world will just stand by and watch it happen? I have my doubts. Furthermore, they'll probably alienate a ton of their allies if they do.
Furthermore, say Israel achieves a total victory and blows the Gaza Strip to hell... What happens in the West Bank? Ethnic cleansing of the Arabs who live there? Do you think this would have a positive impact on Israel's national security? What is the final outcome? Where does this end? At this point, I'm genuinely curious.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 20, 2023, 07:32:47 PM
That's not what he meant.
Then, he could have had a better choice of words.
And since he advertises himself as the Sultan of Semantics, we are supposed to take him precisely.
And, again, he might have meant something else, but he should know for an American to say you can be "anti-Isreal" is not anti-Semitic in this context has a specific meaning.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 20, 2023, 07:39:18 PM
You suggested a cease fire right after the horrific attack on Israeli civilians by Hamas. Then you said only the Israelis could have bombed the hospital in Gaza that the Palestinians bombed.
And then you claimed to be neutral and everyone had a good laugh.
I suggested it days later. I didn't even join the thread until four days after the events. But create your own narrative if you must. And I still stand by the fact that the hospital bombing origin is unknown.
One more time for your thick skull. I AM NEUTRAL. BOTH SIDES HAVE COMMITTED DISGUSTING ATROCITIES AND SHOULD STOP.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 07:39:57 PM
So your solution is to treat the Gaza strip like Dresden? Do you think that if Israel goes that route the world will just stand by and watch it happen? I have my doubts. Furthermore, they'll probably alienate a ton of their allies if they do.
Furthermore, say Israel achieves a total victory and blows the Gaza Strip to hell... What happens in the West Bank? Ethnic cleansing of the Arabs who live there? Do you think this would have a positive impact on Israel's national security? What is the final outcome? Where does this end? At this point, I'm genuinely curious.
No one said anything about ethnic cleansing. That is uninformed US progressive talk. 20% of Isreal population is Arab. How does ethnic cleansing work with one-fifth of your population Arab? (0% of Gaza is Jewish)
Israel said they would eliminate Hamas. They have to. Everyone from the US President to all European leaders (including Germany's Olaf Schultz on Tuesday) said they have the right to defend themselves.
Do not underestimate these words. It will be ugly and hard to look at. Everyone who said they had the right to defend themselves knows fully what this means. So, be ready. It is getting a lot worse before it gets better.
And if they successfully wipe out Hamas, what happens in the West Bank? Nothing. Because if they act up, Israel will do the same to them.
If Israel shows any weakness in any way, everyone will attack them, sensing they can exterminate the 8 million Jews.
This is why they formed a unity government, and Benny Gantz, the head of the liberal party, is saying the same things as Bibi about the need to eliminate Hamas and what it means.
These are the stakes. Don't pretend they are anything less.
----
If the Palestinians lay down their guns, the Middle East will have peace
If Israel lays down its weapons, Israel ceases to exist.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 07:49:42 PM
I AM NEUTRAL. BOTH SIDES HAVE COMMITTED DISGUSTING ATROCITIES AND SHOULD STOP.
Good people on both sides. Who said that? Remind me again?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:47:31 PM
Then, he could have had a better choice of words.
And since he advertises himself as the Sultan of Semantics, we are supposed to take him precisely.
And, again, he might have meant something else, but he should know for an American to say you can be "anti-Isreal" is not anti-Semitic in this context has a specific meaning.
lol you have the worst takes
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:54:38 PM
Good people on both sides. Who said that? Remind me again?
We get it. You think all Palestinians are sub human. Your characterization of all of them being Hamas (or intentionally omitting civilians from the conversation) is pretty explicit.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 20, 2023, 08:26:58 PM
We get it. You think all Palestinians are sub human. Your characterization of all of them being Hamas (or intentionally omitting civilians from the conversation) is pretty explicit.
Exactly.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:54:38 PM
Good people on both sides. Who said that? Remind me again?
Do you dispute that both sides have committed war crimes?
The moment Heisey enters a thread, the discussion devolves.
Israeli defense officials are advocating for a preemptive strike against Hezbollah. US is urging against major strikes, Netanyahu has been cautious so far.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/us/politics/biden-israel-hezbollah-war.html
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 07:49:42 PM
And I still stand by the fact that the hospital bombing origin is unknown.
And that Jesse Smollett was pummeled by a couple of Maga guys.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 05:36:25 PM
I meant us nuking them. Sorry.
You don't owe an apology, gotta say though, I was a little concerned for you.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 20, 2023, 09:12:56 PM
And that Jesse Smollett was pummeled by a couple of Maga guys.
And that the Central Park 5 should be executed.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 06:29:56 PM
I assure you when you ask the average Westerner, they do not
This is my point! Uniformed Westerners think it is a Google Maps reference or a nursery rhyme, so they keep repeating it, thinking it is an innocent statement.
This phrase has a specific meaning, and yes, it was created by Luncatics in the Middle East (many of which you think don't lie about errant missiles hitting hospitals), hoping that uniformed Westerners will keep repeating it to make it a mainstream idea.
I'll ask again. From the River to the Sea (the Jordanian River to the Eastern Mediterranean), or the area now known as Isreal, Palestine will be free. So Israel will become Palestine.
So what happens to the 8 million Jews that live there now?
I agree with this. My wife asked me about the saying as I showed her a video of a demonstration at Penn. I told her some know the meaning and are antisemites. Some do not and are parroting extremely dangerous rhetoric that they do not understand. Ignorance is no excuse, and I think it's an opportunity to explain the disgusting nature of the saying.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 20, 2023, 08:26:58 PM
We get it. You think all Palestinians are sub human. Your characterization of all of them being Hamas (or intentionally omitting civilians from the conversation) is pretty explicit.
Are the Israelis sub-human? Seven thousand three hundred rockets have been fired at them in the last 13 days, including hundreds today. Over 1500 were killed for being Jewish.
Please explain to me what is happening to them. Hint: their very existence is being threatened. What do you think happens if they don't respond forcefully? What are they supposed to do? Explain to me what is a "proportional response." What is your version?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 20, 2023, 08:55:57 PM
The moment Heisey enters a thread, the discussion devolves.
This is embarrassingly weak. You can do better.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 08:48:22 PM
Do you dispute that both sides have committed war crimes?
Are the Israelis sub-human? Seven thousand three hundred rockets have been fired at them in the last 13 days, including hundreds today. Over 1500 were killed for being Jewish.
Please explain to me what is happening to them. Hint: their very existence is being threatened. What do you think happens if they don't respond forcefully? What are they supposed to do? Explain to me what is a "proportional response." What is your version?
I already gave you mine.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 09:52:36 PM
This is embarrassingly weak. You can do better.
We both know it's true, though.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 09:55:08 PM
Are the Israelis sub-human? Seven thousand three hundred rockets have been fired at them in the last 13 days, including hundreds today. Over 1500 were killed for being Jewish.
Please explain to me what is happening to them. Hint: their very existence is being threatened. What do you think happens if they don't respond forcefully? What are they supposed to do? Explain to me what is a "proportional response." What is your version?
I already gave you mine.
You can't answer my simple yes or no question, but expect me to go into an exposition to?
I've already gone to extreme lengths to explain what I believe should happen. I'm not retyping the same thing over and over because you were suspiciously absent from the thread for a week and can't be bothered to find it.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 09:48:37 PM
I agree with this. My wife asked me about the saying as I showed her a video of a demonstration at Penn. I told her some know the meaning and are antisemites. Some do not and are parroting extremely dangerous rhetoric that they do not understand. Ignorance is no excuse, and I think it's an opportunity to explain the disgusting nature of the saying.
Why are calls for genocide against Jews tolerated on college campuses? (the backlash is really building. See what is happening at Penn.)
How are Jewish students supposed to feel? Are they wrong to feel scared, afraid, and threatened?
Free speech? Many agree with this. While I'm not against as an idea, answer this ....
Marquette University student Amina Dalieh -
"Palestinians have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about George Floyd a week after he was killed
"Palestinians Minneapolis police officers have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".Is this acceptable, and you would defend their right? What's the difference?
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about abortion?
"Palestinians Pro-lifers have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".First Amendment? Nothing to see here?
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about transgenders?
"Palestinians sys-genders have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".Is it perfectly ok to do this?
I could talk about religious groups, Areminans, and the like.
Again, I'm fine with the First Amendment argument, but let's go all the way. No exceptions.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 20, 2023, 10:01:41 PM
We both know it's true, though.
Yes, you can do better; now put your back into it.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 07:47:31 PM
Then, he could have had a better choice of words.
And since he advertises himself as the Sultan of Semantics, we are supposed to take him precisely.
And, again, he might have meant something else, but he should know for an American to say you can be "anti-Isreal" is not anti-Semitic in this context has a specific meaning.
Sorry I have to explain it to you like you're 4.
It's very clear from my posts in this topic that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself. But you are too busy pontificating and calling people anti-Semitic that apparently you can't keep things straight.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 10:10:07 PM
You can't answer my simple yes or no question, but expect me to go into an exposition to?
I've already gone to extreme lengths to explain what I believe should happen. I'm not retyping the same thing over and over because you were suspiciously absent from the thread for a week and can't be bothered to find it.
No one is sub-human. But two groups with incompatible world views want to eliminate each other. The only solution for peace is for one side to prevail. Or they can keep killing each other slowly for the next 1,000 years like they have the last 1,000 years.
Yes, we all wish it did not have to be this way. But humans disagree and think differently, and conflict is, unfortunately, the only way to settle it.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 10:13:22 PM
Why are calls for genocide against Jews tolerated on college campuses? (the backlash is really building. See what is happening at Penn.)
How are Jewish students supposed to feel? Are they wrong to feel scared, afraid, and threatened?
Free speech? Many agree with this. While I'm not against as an idea, answer this ....
Marquette University student Amina Dalieh - "Palestinians have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about George Floyd a week after he was killed
"Palestinians Minneapolis police officers have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
Is this acceptable, and you would defend their right? What's the difference?
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about abortion?
"Palestinians Pro-lifers have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
First Amendment? Nothing to see here?
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about transgenders?
"Palestinians sys-genders have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
Is it perfectly ok to do this?
I could talk about religious groups, Areminans, and the like.
Again, I'm fine with the First Amendment argument, but let's go all the way. No exceptions.
I'll speak to Penn, and my wife basically asked the same question you are about free speech and safety/violence/fear. Personally, I fall into the speech is protected camp, and while some speech is absolutely repugnant, well, it has to be allowed. Stifling debate is not a path I want to go down personally.
Now, at Penn there are real concerns. While we aren't sure some of the recent vandalism and aggression towards Jews was due to the recent Palestine Writes festival, it is difficult not to let oneself draw that conclusion. In my opinion, speech and rhetoric crossed into physically dangerous and in need of action when Penn Hillel took damage, a person was outwardly threatening Jewish students, and a swastika was painted. To me, that crossed the line from free speech to actions that deserve consequences. Candidly, though, I'm still working through that a bit.
At Penn, there is increased security, increased sensitivity, and a clear way to make it known if one feels unsafe or physically threatened. Do I think shouting from the river to the sea in downtown Philly is threatening, I do, but I do lean towards it being speech rather than an overt threat to Jews at the school. I think Penn has to protect all their students and sometimes the level of protection needed probably fluctuates. Do I think Jewish and Muslim students need more protection now, I do. Do I think marches and shouting should be allowed, I do.
As for your other examples, I don't quite understand what you mean with the resistance piece. I'll wait to respond until I totally understand what you're asking. Do I think anyone can rent a truck and say whatever they want, I do.
Edit—I'll add, I asked my son what he was seeing and hearing. There is a place on campus called the button, and he mentioned many people were around the area having discussions about what is going on. He said each time he walked past the sentiment changed, meaning sometimes people were discussing the nuances of what is going on. His friends, Jewish/Muslim/Otherwise want peace.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 10:29:00 PM
I'll speak to Penn, and my wife basically asked the same question you are about free speech and safety/violence/fear. Personally, I fall into the speech is protected camp, and while some speech is absolutely repugnant, well, it has to be allowed. Stifling debate is not a path I want to go down personally.
Now, at Penn there are real concerns. While we aren't sure some of the recent vandalism and aggression towards Jews was due to the recent Palestine Writes festival, it is difficult not to let oneself draw that conclusion. In my opinion, speech and rhetoric crossed into physically dangerous and in need of action when Penn Hillel took damage, a person was outwardly threatening Jewish students, and a swastika was painted. To me, that crossed the line from free speech to actions that deserve consequences. Candidly, though, I'm still working through that a bit.
At Penn, there is increased security, increased sensitivity, and a clear way to make it known if one feels unsafe or physically threatened. Do I think shouting from the river to the sea in downtown Philly is threatening, I do, but I do lean towards it being speech rather than an overt threat to Jews at the school. I think Penn has to protect all their students and sometimes the level of protection needed probably fluctuates. Do I think Jewish and Muslim students need more protection now, I do. Do I think marches and shouting should be allowed, I do.
As for your other examples, I don't quite understand what you mean with the resistance piece. I'll wait to respond until I totally understand what you're asking. Do I think anyone can rent a truck and say whatever they want, I do.
Maybe it was a poorly used rhetorical device.
I started by using the wording that Marquette University student Amina Dalieh actually said in a rented pickup on Wisconsin Avenue with a loudspeaker.
Video here (https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620?s=20)
I tried to change them as little as possible for the other examples to ask why these words, in the way they were delivered, were acceptable in her instance (acceptable in that it appears to be no percussions against her) and if similar words are acceptable in these other instances.
Should she have been punished?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 10:21:50 PM
No one is sub-human. But two groups with incompatible world views want to eliminate each other. The only solution for peace is for one side to prevail. Or they can keep killing each other slowly for the next 1,000 years like they have the last 1,000 years.
Yes, we all wish it did not have to be this way. But humans disagree and think differently, and conflict is, unfortunately, the only way to settle it.
I'm sorry, were you going to answer the question directly, or just tap dance around the word no?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 10:43:51 PM
I'm sorry, were you going to answer the question directly, or just tap dance around the word no?
Restate the question again, as I thought I answered it twice already.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 08:48:22 PM
Do you dispute that both sides have committed war crimes?
yes or no
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 10:42:41 PM
Maybe it was a poorly used rhetorical device.
I started by using the wording that Marquette University student Amina Dalieh actually said in a rented pickup on Wisconsin Avenue with a loudspeaker.
Video here (https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620?s=20)
I tried to change them as little as possible for the other examples to ask why these words, in the way they were delivered, were acceptable in her instance (acceptable in that it appears to be no percussions against her) and if similar words are acceptable in these other instances.
Should she have been punished?
Yeah, I'm not sure it was a poorly used rhetorical device, I just didn't get it. I'm way less smart than I think I am.
I do not think she should be punished. She is fully free to speak her mind in any way she feels. Now, if she took up arms and emulated Hamas, she should be punished. Do I think it is fair to say because she thinks Palestines should resist they way they are is equal to Hamas should be able to behead children, I do not. Now, she may absolutely feel that way, which is disgusting, but protected.
To be clear, I am an ardent supporter of the idea of free speech, and I do not think that makes me a supporter of violence. I think MU needs to protect her right to say what she said just as much as they should protect a Jewish student calling for one state (I did not hear this or claim to, it is an example). Committing genocide is grotesque, the worst form of humanity, shouting it is irresponsible and inflammatory.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 10:46:26 PM
yes or no
Or sorry, I missed that.
I reject this ...
One side intentionally targets civilians. This is the purpose of the 7,3000 rockets fired in the last 13 days. They are so poorly designed, and the only goal is to be fired in the general direction of Israel, hoping they will kill random civilians. Incidentally, these rockets are so poorly constructed, made from dug-up water pipes (contributing to the humanitarian/water crisis in Gaza) that estimates are 10% to 25% land in Gaza and kill Palestinians ... see the hospital the other day. It happens all the time. This side also uses human shields, which are direct violations of the 1949 Geneva Convention.
The other side targets military targets and understands civilian collateral damage will occur. Thsi is not considered a war crime. This side drops leaflets, send text messages, and has radio broadcasts that give civilians warnings and time to leave. Did the other side do any of this on October 7?
So no, I do not think both sides are equally guilty.
To equate these two as equal (back to "bad people on both sides") is wrong.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:12:05 PM
I'm not resisting anything.
Well yes, you are. You've proclaimed that you have a 5-point plan that would bring Iran to its knees with minimal american lives lost and no significant geo-political consequences. You've been invited repeatedly to share this and you have resisted sharing it.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:12:05 PM
You should be screaming from the rooftops about the myriad of takes and asinine moral equivalency people are intimating here regarding this horrific situation. There are a lot of people on the wrong side MU82, I'm not one of them.
You are one of them, the worst one of them in fact, if you are advocating for the use of nuclear weapons as anything other than a deterrent.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:12:05 PM
I want you to ask yourself point-blank what some of the squadlike people and all of us posting would write if there were KKK rallies all over college campuses yelling "Dylan Roof was right"? Do you think they would simply be insouciant and accept it? Would you and others state that college President's not doing a fking thing about it is "free speech"? I'm gonna call b-crape.
I would state that. Assuming they stayed within the confines of what is allowed by the first amendment, then I would support their right to do just that while simultaneously using my own rights to denounce them as racist asshats. Some of us hold the first amendment sacred always, not just when it is convenient for us.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 20, 2023, 04:15:18 PM
And to answer "would I use a nuclear" weapon on Iran I will just state emphatically thaf I would eliminate their chances getting a nuclear weapon. Ever. If that means we would have to nuke ourselves to take out their facilities? I'm not against it but I don't think it would be necessary.
While I guess there's some small comfort that you wouldn't use nuclear weapons as a first resort in your fabled 5-point plan, it is truly concerning that you would be open to the use of nuclear weapons as on offensive weapon. The only acceptable use of a nuclear weapon in today's day and age is as a passive deterrent. To suggest using them to wage war on another country would require a level of depravity on par with the terrorirsts you seek to punish. Careful when fighting monsters Muggsy, lest you become one.
I did not say they were equal, but you can't even being yourself to admit Israel has committed war crimes. This is why you're not a serious person. Your bias clouds your judgement entirely.
Simply because you do not consider them war crimes does not mean they are not. There is a definition that the international community has decided. And both sides have committed them.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 10:56:40 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure it was a poorly used rhetorical device, I just didn't get it. I'm way less smart than I think I am.
I do not think she should be punished. She is fully free to speak her mind in any way she feels. Now, if she took up arms and emulated Hamas, she should be punished. Do I think it is fair to say because she thinks Palestines should resist they way they are is equal to Hamas should be able to behead children, I do not. Now, she may absolutely feel that way, which is disgusting, but protected.
To be clear, I am an ardent supporter of the idea of free speech, and I do not think that makes me a supporter of violence. I think MU needs to protect her right to say what she said just as much as they should protect a Jewish student calling for one state (I did not hear this or claim to, it is an example). Committing genocide is grotesque, the worst form of humanity, shouting it is irresponsible and inflammatory.
I agree as I feel similarly about protecting speech (we protect terrible speech as nice speech needs no protections).
To clarify, do you feel the same if it is directed at minorities, LBGT, abortion, etc? Would you tell minority students the same thing currently being said to Jewish students and take precisely the measures to protect them as Jewish students are getting now?
And if the answer is yes, do we agree that there is no such thing as a micro-aggression anymore? Because if the words directed at Jewish students in the last two weeks on college campuses do not qualify, nothing does.
Last question: if it could be established that her words are a call to violence and that it is not unreasonable to assume they were, does this change the equation?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 10:59:05 PM
Or sorry, I missed that.
I reject this ...
One side intentionally targets civilians. This is the purpose of the 7,3000 rockets fired in the last 13 days. They are so poorly designed, and the only goal is to be fired in the general direction of Israel, hoping they will kill random civilians. Incidentally, these rockets are so poorly constructed, made from dug-up water pipes (contributing to the humanitarian/water crisis in Gaza) that estimates are 10% to 25% land in Gaza and kill Palestinians ... see the hospital the other day. It happens all the time. This side also uses human shields, which are direct violations of the 1949 Geneva Convention.
The other side targets military targets and understands civilian collateral damage will occur. Thsi is not considered a war crime. This side drops leaflets, send text messages, and has radio broadcasts that give civilians warnings and time to leave. Did the other side do any of this on October 7?
So no, I do not think both sides are equally guilty.
To equate these two as equal (back to "bad people on both sides") is wrong.
Gotta be honest here H2O, while your "arguments" are true, they do miss context. This is dangerous, in my opinion, and we all do it. For example, leaflets were dropped, where were the people supposed to go? What we read and see is that both Hamas and Israel (and Egypt) make it nearly impossible for innocent Palestinians to move freely. I don't want to debate what's worse or equate Hamas' abhorrent attack with anything Israel has done or not done, I just think we need recognize it's just not black and white.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 20, 2023, 11:07:10 PM
I did not say they were equal, but you can't even being yourself to admit Israel has committed war crimes. This is why you're not a serious person. Your bias clouds your judgement entirely.
Simply because you do not consider them war crimes does not mean they are not. There is a definition that the international community has decided. And both sides have committed them.
Every side, in every war ever conducted in the history of the human race, has committed a war crime. So yes, they do.
But the war crimes committed here are wildly unequal.
Why are you so desperate for a moral equivalency?
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 20, 2023, 11:10:57 PM
Gotta be honest here H2O, while your "arguments" are true, they do miss context. This is dangerous, in my opinion, and we all do it. For example, leaflets were dropped, where were the people supposed to go? What we read and see is that both Hamas and Israel (and Egypt) make it nearly impossible for innocent Palestinians to move freely. I don't want to debate what's worse or equate Hamas' abhorrent attack with anything Israel has done or not done, I just think we need recognize it's just not black and white.
War represents failure as it is the last and least desirable option. That said, this is where we are.
And to your question of where they should go, that is the job of the governing body of Gaza ... Hamas, to figure it out. The 1949 Geneva Convention states that protecting civilians is the government's job. The opposing side only needs not to target civilians and make every effort to keep collateral damage minimal. So, ask Hamas where they are supposed to go, not Israel.
And they have answered. Hamas is telling them to go nowhere. They want them to be human shields, which is also a violation of the Geneva Convention.
----
Israel's attitude has changed. So when they go in after the warnings, they will not intentionally kill civilians., But they are not going to let their presence stop them from their military objects.
The October 7 attack has changed the Israelis' attitude and the equalization in this conflict. When the ground operations start, it will be different from previous operations.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 10:13:22 PM
Marquette University student Amina Dalieh - "Palestinians have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about George Floyd a week after he was killed
"Palestinians Minneapolis police officers have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
Is this acceptable, and you would defend their right? What's the difference?
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about abortion?
"Palestinians Pro-lifers have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
First Amendment? Nothing to see here?
What if a student group rented a pickup and loudspeaker and drove up and down Wisconsin Avenue saying this about transgenders?
"Palestinians sys-genders have every right to resist in the way they are resisting".
Is it perfectly ok to do this?
None of what you listed is "perfectly okay". It's all deplorable. It is also free-speech. And yes, I would defend all of their rights to do this even while using my own free speech to condemn the content of all of their messages.
The first amendment has limits, so while I can't say "no exceptions" as you put it, I do agree that exceptions should not be made based solely on the content of the message. The first amendment is not something that can be applied only when convenient.
Also it's "cisgender" not "sys-gender" just so you know.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 11:08:36 PM
And if the answer is yes, do we agree that there is no such as a micro-aggression anymore? Because if the words directed at Jewish students in the last two weeks on college campuses do not qualify, nothing does.
Huh? Just because something is free speech doesn't mean it can't also be a microaggression (or just pure bigotry). There's no logic to this argument.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 11:08:36 PM
Last question: if it could be established that her words are a call to violence and that it is not unreasonable to assume they were, does this change the equation?
It is unreasonable to assume that the examples you gave were a call to violence in the sense that it would not be protected by the first amendment. Incitement (the legal word for a call to violence or other unlawful action) requires that the words were both
intended and
likely to provoke
immediate unlawful action. There is no judge in the states who would classify what the Marquette student said (or any of the other examples you gave) as incitement.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 11:08:36 PM
I agree as I feel similarly about protecting speech (we protect terrible speech as nice speech needs no protections).
To clarify, do you feel the same if it is directed at minorities, LBGT, abortion, etc? Would you tell minority students the same thing currently being said to Jewish students and take precisely the measures to protect them as Jewish students are getting now?
And if the answer is yes, do we agree that there is no such as a micro-aggression anymore? Because if the words directed at Jewish students in the last two weeks on college campuses do not qualify, nothing does.
Last question: if it could be established that her words are a call to violence and that it is not unreasonable to assume they were, does this change the equation?
First and foremost, I appreciate the dialog, sincerely.
Can you give me an example of what you're getting at with what statements are being made towards minorities/LGBTQ/about abortion? I actually had something written regarding abortion in my other reply to you, but I deleted it because I didn't quite understand what you were asking.
Candidly, I'm not sure I totally understand the micro-aggressions comment. I think statements made most certainly feel and sound aggressive, but they have yet to be physically aggressive (I'm probably wrong to make a blanket statement, as I'm sure there have been instances). If a Jewish student feels threatened, they should be protected and feel that they have a way to be protected. Do I think it's reasonable to think that some Jewish students are afraid, scared of physical altercations, I do. And, I would recommend they ask for protection and get it.
As for your last question, I don't think so. It might very well be a call to violence, but it didn't materialize that way. I hesitate to use this example but some think Trumps words were a call to violence that led to the US Capitol being compromised. Does Trump hold any responsibility. Candidly, I do not think so. If I am dumb enough to hear someone's words and take violent action, I'm at fault.
Some people might feel the MU student is calling for violence and take up arms. Some most certainly do not feel that is what she is calling for. Those who take up arms and act violently, should be charged/punished. Her speech is protected from charges/punishment. Now, I'm no attorney so perhaps there is precedence regarding this sort of thing, so I'll defer to that.
Microaggression
a statement, action, or incident regarded as an instance of indirect, subtle, or unintentional discrimination against members of a marginalized group such as a racial or ethnic minority.
For years, students and educators have been punished for their perceived actions (indirect, subtle, or unintentional).
Example
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/us/as-diversity-increases-slights-get-subtler-but-still-sting.html
---
I'll be blunt to get my point across. For years, we have seen "made up" injustices by dispossessed groups taken seriously and students and educators punished.
Now, students nationwide are calling for genocide ("from the river to the sea ..."). When Jewish students tell administrators they are scared, they are given a lecture about the First Amendment.
So the next time a minority student complains that the use of the term "color blindness" is a racist microaggression and deserving of punishment (and there have been punishments for the use of this phrase), they should now be given a lecture about the First Amendment?
https://reason.com/2015/08/05/speech-codes-and-humanism/
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 11:40:58 PM
Microaggression
a statement, action, or incident regarded as an instance of indirect, subtle, or unintentional discrimination against members of a marginalized group such as a racial or ethnic minority.
For years, students and educators have been punished for their perceived actions (indirect, subtle, or unintentional).
Example
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/us/as-diversity-increases-slights-get-subtler-but-still-sting.html
---
I'll be blunt to get my point across. For years, we have seen "made up" injustices by dispossessed groups taken seriously and students and educators punished.
Now, students nationwide are calling for genocide ("from the river to the sea ..."). When Jewish students tell administrators they are scared, they are given a lecture about the First Amendment.
So the next time a minority student complains that the use of the term "color blindness" is a racist microaggression and deserving of punishment (and there have been punishments for the use of this phrase), they should now be given a lecture about the First Amendment?
https://reason.com/2015/08/05/speech-codes-and-humanism/
Please give me an example of a university punishing a faculty member or student for committing a single microaggression.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 11:40:58 PM
Microaggression
a statement, action, or incident regarded as an instance of indirect, subtle, or unintentional discrimination against members of a marginalized group such as a racial or ethnic minority.
For years, students and educators have been punished for their perceived actions (indirect, subtle, or unintentional).
Example
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/us/as-diversity-increases-slights-get-subtler-but-still-sting.html
---
I'll be blunt to get my point across. For years, we have seen "made up" injustices by dispossessed groups taken seriously and students and educators punished.
Now, students nationwide are calling for genocide ("from the river to the sea ..."). When Jewish students tell administrators they are scared, they are given a lecture about the First Amendment.
So the next time a minority student complains that the use of the term "color blindness" is a racist microaggression and deserving of punishment (and there have been punishments for the use of this phrase), they should now be given a lecture about the First Amendment?
https://reason.com/2015/08/05/speech-codes-and-humanism/
So, I understand the term, I didn't understand what you were getting at. And, clearly I have fallen prey to being this way as I have caused your tone to change. My apologies, I wasn't being intentionally obtuse, I wanted to make sure I understood what you were asking. I've never been one to like the term micro-aggression, but if someone feels uncomfortable or scared, so be it, who am I to say otherwise. Sometimes I feel like the term micro-aggression has been used to minimize casual racism or ignorance, which we have total control over our personal roles in both.
Yes, I think we could all use a lesson on both the first amendment and compassion/kindness. I've always been one to feel if someone is offended by something, figure out a way to be less offensive. Or, at the very least hear what they are feeling is a micro-aggression. I try (and fail) not to get defensive about my offensive words.
Yes, I think any time inflammatory or disgusting words are spoken, both the speaker and the hearer might need a lesson on the first amendment. If someone feels color blindness is a micro-aggression, why would I use the term towards that person? When that person calls for punishment, I would absolutely tell them the speech is protected. I don't have to like it, but I have to allow for it.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 20, 2023, 11:46:40 PM
Please give me an example of a university punishing a faculty member or student for committing a single microaggression.
Here's two
https://reason.com/2021/04/07/microaggressions-uva-student-kieran-bhattacharya-threat/
Kieran Bhattacharya is a student at the University of Virginia (UVA) School of Medicine. On October 25, 2018, he attended a panel discussion on the subject of microaggressions. Dissatisfied with the definition of a microaggression offered by the presenter—Beverly Cowell Adams, an assistant dean—Bhattacharya raised his hand.
Within a few weeks, as a result of the fallout from Bhattacharya's question about microagressions, the administration had branded him a threat to the university and banned him from campus. He is now suing UVA for violating his First Amendment rights, and a judge recently ruled that his suit should proceed.
https://www.thefire.org/news/fire-and-student-press-law-center-file-brief-oyama-v-university-hawaii
Mark Oyama was a student in the University of Hawaii's (UH's) teaching certification program, where he was required to complete a student teaching assignment. UH denied his application for a student teaching position, citing concerns about comments he made with respect to his personal views on students with disabilities and age-of-consent laws. Although Oyama was never accused of any actual misconduct, nor of expressing an intent to engage in misconduct, UH justified its denial of his application by claiming that his views were "not in alignment" with professional teaching standards.
Reasonable or not?
October 20, 2023
Jewish Americans Arm Themselves in Wake of Israeli Horror
https://thereload.com/jewish-americans-arm-themselves-in-wake-of-horror-in-israel/
"There's another order coming from Hamas to kill the Jews. I happen to be Jewish, and I don't want to be killed."
That's the succinct explanation Joshua, a doctor in Los Angeles, gave for why he decided to buy his first gun this week. He's far from alone. New owners and trainers alike described scenes of gun stores and safety classes full of Jewish Americans hoping to protect themselves from the kind of slaughter that played out on October 7th when Hamas terrorists streamed over the border into Israel and ruthlessly slaughtered more than 1,400 men, women, and children.
"I was at a local gun store a couple of days ago, where my wife was doing her firearms training test, and it was full," Joshua, who–like several others who spoke to The Reload for this story–did not want his real name revealed in large part due to safety concerns, said. "There was a line outside to get in for people to do their tests, or buy firearms, or practice on the range. And I would say it was 90% Jewish people and Israelis."
He said the motivation of those in line was clear.
"We all know what happened in Israel. It was a horrific attack on civilians by Hamas with the tally now up close to 1,500 dead," Joshua said. "It's the worst attack against Jews since the Holocaust. I never thought I'd say this, but it's almost worse than the Nazis. They buried the bodies or cremated the bodies. The Nazis hid their atrocities. Hamas is live streaming their atrocities where they kill babies, shoot the elderly waiting at bus stops, rape women, and mow down young people at a music festival for peace."
----
"The tension and the anger is palpable," he said. "And the calls that you're seeing come out of these rallies, it's not let's get along with our Jewish brothers and sisters, let's coexist. You hear things like, 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.' That's not a call for peace. That's a call for the eradication of Jews from Israel. That literally means from the river to the sea, that's referring to all of Israel. They want they want the entire land. And these aren't isolated incidents."
He pointed to anti-Semitic incidents across the globe. Outside the Sydney Opera House in Australia, protesters chanted, "Gas the Jews." A swastika was held up during a rally in New York City's Times Square, and another was drawn on a famous Jewish Deli in the city. Iconography of paragliders, which Hamas terrorists used in their attack, has been featured at numerous protests throughout the country and the world.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 12:05:44 AM
Here's two
https://reason.com/2021/04/07/microaggressions-uva-student-kieran-bhattacharya-threat/
Kieran Bhattacharya is a student at the University of Virginia (UVA) School of Medicine. On October 25, 2018, he attended a panel discussion on the subject of microaggressions. Dissatisfied with the definition of a microaggression offered by the presenter—Beverly Cowell Adams, an assistant dean—Bhattacharya raised his hand.
Within a few weeks, as a result of the fallout from Bhattacharya's question about microagressions, the administration had branded him a threat to the university and banned him from campus. He is now suing UVA for violating his First Amendment rights, and a judge recently ruled that his suit should proceed.
https://www.thefire.org/news/fire-and-student-press-law-center-file-brief-oyama-v-university-hawaii
Mark Oyama was a student in the University of Hawaii's (UH's) teaching certification program, where he was required to complete a student teaching assignment. UH denied his application for a student teaching position, citing concerns about comments he made with respect to his personal views on students with disabilities and age-of-consent laws. Although Oyama was never accused of any actual misconduct, nor of expressing an intent to engage in misconduct, UH justified its denial of his application by claiming that his views were "not in alignment" with professional teaching standards.
Courts found no evidence in your first example and granted summary judgement to UVA.
https://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2022/08/court-grants-universitys-motion-for-summary-judgment-in-bhattacharya-case
Your second example was denied a student teaching placement (with minors) because he made comments advocating for the legalization of pedophilia including this gem: "Personally, I think that online child predation should be legal, and find it ridiculous that one could be arrested for comments they make on the Internet. I even think that real-life child predation should be legal, provided that the child is consentual [sic]. Basically from my point of view, the age of consent should be either 0, or whatever age a child is when puberty begins."
Courts ruled that your second example was not a free speech issue. Rather it was a decision based on national professional standard and job requirements for teachers (which I imagine includes not placing pedophilia advocates with minors).
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/04/appeals-court-upholds-u-hawaii-decision-deny-student-teaching-assignment-based
Please feel free to try again. I imagine there are isolated incidents where this has happened, but generally universities hold the first amendment sacred and usually get it right
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 10:59:05 PM
Or sorry, I missed that.
I reject this ...
One side intentionally targets civilians. This is the purpose of the 7,3000 rockets fired in the last 13 days. They are so poorly designed, and the only goal is to be fired in the general direction of Israel, hoping they will kill random civilians. Incidentally, these rockets are so poorly constructed, made from dug-up water pipes (contributing to the humanitarian/water crisis in Gaza) that estimates are 10% to 25% land in Gaza and kill Palestinians ... see the hospital the other day. It happens all the time. This side also uses human shields, which are direct violations of the 1949 Geneva Convention.
The other side targets military targets and understands civilian collateral damage will occur. Thsi is not considered a war crime. This side drops leaflets, send text messages, and has radio broadcasts that give civilians warnings and time to leave. Did the other side do any of this on October 7?
So no, I do not think both sides are equally guilty.
To equate these two as equal (back to "bad people on both sides") is wrong.
Exactly. Why this has to be explained to people like they're 4 is beyond me.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 20, 2023, 11:02:42 PM
Well yes, you are. You've proclaimed that you have a 5-point plan that would bring Iran to its knees with minimal american lives lost and no significant geo-political consequences. You've been invited repeatedly to share this and you have resisted sharing it.
You are one of them, the worst one of them in fact, if you are advocating for the use of nuclear weapons as anything other than a deterrent.
I would state that. Assuming they stayed within the confines of what is allowed by the first amendment, then I would support their right to do just that while simultaneously using my own rights to denounce them as racist asshats. Some of us hold the first amendment sacred always, not just when it is convenient for us.
While I guess there's some small comfort that you wouldn't use nuclear weapons as a first resort in your fabled 5-point plan, it is truly concerning that you would be open to the use of nuclear weapons as on offensive weapon. The only acceptable use of a nuclear weapon in today's day and age is as a passive deterrent. To suggest using them to wage war on another country would require a level of depravity on par with the terrorirsts you seek to punish. Careful when fighting monsters Muggsy, lest you become one.
We cannot let Iran get a nuclear weapon and the fact that we have placating that regime is an unmitigated disaster. There is no Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc, without Iran. To wipe these terrorist organizations off the face of the earth you have to deal with Iran, it's that simple. There is 0.0 reason they should be raking in oil money hand over fist to subjugate their own people and inflict terror all over the world. They are the monsters as were the Nazis before them. I never stated that the country should be wiped off the face of the earth, I said the Mullahs should be introduced to darkness and we should seize their oil.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 04:42:41 AM
We cannot let Iran get a nuclear weapon and the fact that we have placating that regime is an unmitigated disaster. There is no Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc, without Iran. To wipe these terrorist organizations off the face of the earth you have to deal with Iran, it's that simple. There is 0.0 reason they should be raking in oil money hand over fist to subjugate their own people and inflict terror all over the world. They are the monsters as were the Nazis before them. I never stated that the country should be wiped off the face of the earth, I said the Mullahs should be introduced to darkness and we should seize their oil.
But again, how do you plan to do that without killing tens of thousands of American solidiers and millions of Iranian civilians?
You act like it's a game of Risk and aren't dealing with the realities at play here.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 21, 2023, 12:48:32 AM
Courts found no evidence in your first example and granted summary judgement to UVA.
https://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2022/08/court-grants-universitys-motion-for-summary-judgment-in-bhattacharya-case
Your second example was denied a student teaching placement (with minors) because he made comments advocating for the legalization of pedophilia including this gem: "Personally, I think that online child predation should be legal, and find it ridiculous that one could be arrested for comments they make on the Internet. I even think that real-life child predation should be legal, provided that the child is consentual [sic]. Basically from my point of view, the age of consent should be either 0, or whatever age a child is when puberty begins."
Courts ruled that your second example was not a free speech issue. Rather it was a decision based on national professional standard and job requirements for teachers (which I imagine includes not placing pedophilia advocates with minors).
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/04/appeals-court-upholds-u-hawaii-decision-deny-student-teaching-assignment-based
Please feel free to try again. I imagine there are isolated incidents where this has happened, but generally universities hold the first amendment sacred and usually get it right
Yeah Heisey I really think you don't understand what goes on at most colleges and universities and have let outliers affect your overall beliefs.
Also, it would be nice if you could keep this thread on-topic and not delve into your culture-war nonsense that got the last one shut down.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 04:42:41 AM
We cannot let Iran get a nuclear weapon and the fact that we have placating that regime is an unmitigated disaster. There is no Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc, without Iran. To wipe these terrorist organizations off the face of the earth you have to deal with Iran, it's that simple. There is 0.0 reason they should be raking in oil money hand over fist to subjugate their own people and inflict terror all over the world. They are the monsters as were the Nazis before them. I never stated that the country should be wiped off the face of the earth, I said the Mullahs should be introduced to darkness and we should seize their oil.
If you think there'd be no terrorism without Iran, I'd like to see your work.
Hezbollah, Hamas or any other organization of that ilk existed long before Iran became a Theocracy
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 04:42:41 AM
I never stated that the country should be wiped off the face of the earth, I said the Mullahs should be introduced to darkness and we should seize their oil.
You keep saying this, but have offered not even a hint of how you would achieve it. Until you do, we can only assume you're living in a Rambo cosplay.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 21, 2023, 07:32:53 AM
If you think there'd be no terrorism without Iran, I'd like to see your work.
Hezbollah, Hamas or any other organization of that ilk existed long before Iran became a Theocracy
I meant that particular group of terrorists.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 20, 2023, 06:09:26 PM
Israel has a right exist now. No doubt.
To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.
But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.
And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.
And none of this means I am antisemetic.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2023, 07:34:51 AM
You keep saying this, but have offered not even a hint of how you would achieve it. Until you do, we can only assume you're living in a Rambo cosplay.
Assume whatever you want Pakuni. I have offered many, many, non-Rambo solutions and we may need some Delta Force badasses. I understand no one wants to discuss the elephant in the room but we're dealing with a very dangerous ideology not to mention other geopolitical s-shows that are getting worse and worse and worse. You can't eviscerate every scumbag or sympathizers of scumbags. On the other hand you cannot deter without even the slightest threat of hard power.
I would actually have red lines if I was in charge and if my demands were not met there would be severe consequences for these evil people. All of them would be fertilizer for starters.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 07:52:51 AM
Assume whatever you want Pakuni. I have offered many, many, non-Rambo solutions and we may need some Delta Force badasses. I understand no one wants to discuss the elephant in the room but we're dealing with a very dangerous ideology not to mention other geopolitical s-shows that are getting worse and worse and worse. You can't eviscerate every scumbag or sympathizers of scumbags. On the other hand you cannot deter without even the slightest threat of hard power.
I would actually have red lines if I was in charge and if my demands were not met there would be severe consequences for these evil people. All of them would be fertilizer for starters.
Lol. You're the one who brings elephants into the room and then refuses to deal with them when asked.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 20, 2023, 10:21:50 PM
No one is sub-human. But two groups with incompatible world views want to eliminate each other. The only solution for peace is for one side to prevail. Or they can keep killing each other slowly for the next 1,000 years like they have the last 1,000 years.
Yes, we all wish it did not have to be this way. But humans disagree and think differently, and conflict is, unfortunately, the only way to settle it.
Looks like you said the silent part (you believe in) out loud. While the people you continuously accuse of hate, advocate for saving lives everywhere. You have directly posted, that in your opinion BOTH sides want to ELIMINATE each other.
And, you advocate then for eliminating the Palestinians as the only route to peace.
You directly state, what you accuse others of secretly believing.
Meanwhile, everyone else, you accuse of such vile ideology, renounce it, and instead believe that the Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to establishing independent states in the holy land, and can both live and coexist in peace with a proper peace plan establishing two-states with borders based on something like the 1967, 1969 borders.
If you had actually read my original post (everything in the post has been subsequently posted on here in shorter and more succinct and better worded ways). It said the problem was people who believe like you and Hamas do. That the only way to peace is to annihilate the other side, and to unify all of the region under one sides rule, strictly based on religious beliefs.
That belief is abhorrent, and is the cause of decades of violence.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 12:39:07 AM
Reasonable or not?
October 20, 2023
Jewish Americans Arm Themselves in Wake of Israeli Horror
https://thereload.com/jewish-americans-arm-themselves-in-wake-of-horror-in-israel/
"There's another order coming from Hamas to kill the Jews. I happen to be Jewish, and I don't want to be killed."
That's the succinct explanation Joshua, a doctor in Los Angeles, gave for why he decided to buy his first gun this week. He's far from alone. New owners and trainers alike described scenes of gun stores and safety classes full of Jewish Americans hoping to protect themselves from the kind of slaughter that played out on October 7th when Hamas terrorists streamed over the border into Israel and ruthlessly slaughtered more than 1,400 men, women, and children.
"I was at a local gun store a couple of days ago, where my wife was doing her firearms training test, and it was full," Joshua, who–like several others who spoke to The Reload for this story–did not want his real name revealed in large part due to safety concerns, said. "There was a line outside to get in for people to do their tests, or buy firearms, or practice on the range. And I would say it was 90% Jewish people and Israelis."
He said the motivation of those in line was clear.
"We all know what happened in Israel. It was a horrific attack on civilians by Hamas with the tally now up close to 1,500 dead," Joshua said. "It's the worst attack against Jews since the Holocaust. I never thought I'd say this, but it's almost worse than the Nazis. They buried the bodies or cremated the bodies. The Nazis hid their atrocities. Hamas is live streaming their atrocities where they kill babies, shoot the elderly waiting at bus stops, rape women, and mow down young people at a music festival for peace."
----
"The tension and the anger is palpable," he said. "And the calls that you're seeing come out of these rallies, it's not let's get along with our Jewish brothers and sisters, let's coexist. You hear things like, 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.' That's not a call for peace. That's a call for the eradication of Jews from Israel. That literally means from the river to the sea, that's referring to all of Israel. They want they want the entire land. And these aren't isolated incidents."
He pointed to anti-Semitic incidents across the globe. Outside the Sydney Opera House in Australia, protesters chanted, "Gas the Jews." A swastika was held up during a rally in New York City's Times Square, and another was drawn on a famous Jewish Deli in the city. Iconography of paragliders, which Hamas terrorists used in their attack, has been featured at numerous protests throughout the country and the world.
Reasonable to buy a gun and taken firearms safety training classes to protect themselves, yeah, it's their right. Am I a fan of guns and people arming themselves outside the home, not my favorite thing on the planet. Is it their constitutional right, do I believe in the constitution, both yes. Candidly, my wife lives and works in the firearms/self defense/2A/responsible and educated gun owners space, so she has given me some perspective on the gun conversation.
Do I want us to take up arms against each other, I do not. Would I prefer we live in peace, I do. Am I an idealist, I am. Will I give up hope, I will not.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 07:41:41 AM
I meant that particular group of terrorists.
You don't think they'd exist if Iran's Theocracy was toppled?
Let's say that's true. Someone or something will spring up and replace them. Now, would eliminating the current Iranian leadership be beneficial for the region as a whole? Yes, I believe that would be true. Do I also believe something worse can spring from their ashes? Yes, that's also a very realistic possibility.
You keep saying seize the oil fields, I assume as a way to cripple them and Iran as a whole financially. Short-term, that might work. Long-term? Good luck
Quote from: forgetful on October 21, 2023, 08:07:51 AM
Looks like you said the silent part (you believe in) out loud. While the people you continuously accuse of hate, advocate for saving lives everywhere. You have directly posted, that in your opinion BOTH sides want to ELIMINATE each other.
And, you advocate then for eliminating the Palestinians as the only route to peace.
You directly state, what you accuse others of secretly believing.
Meanwhile, everyone else, you accuse of such vile ideology, renounce it, and instead believe that the Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to establishing independent states in the holy land, and can both live and coexist in peace with a proper peace plan establishing two-states with borders based on something like the 1967, 1969 borders.
If you had actually read my original post (everything in the post has been subsequently posted on here in shorter and more succinct and better worded ways). It said the problem was people who believe like you and Hamas do. That the only way to peace is to annihilate the other side, and to unify all of the region under one sides rule, strictly based on religious beliefs.
That belief is abhorrent, and is the cause of decades of violence.
Unfortunately, you have made a very good point here about what H20 said and seems to believe.
If you want to really cripple the middle east, buy an electric car. Go green. Take one small step in the process of bankrupting them.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 21, 2023, 08:16:51 AM
You don't think they'd exist if Iran's Theocracy was toppled?
Let's say that's true. Someone or something will spring up and replace them. Now, would eliminating the current Iranian leadership be beneficial for the region as a whole? Yes, I believe that would be true. Do I also believe something worse can spring from their ashes? Yes, that's also a very realistic possibility.
You keep saying seize the oil fields, I assume as a way to cripple them and Iran as a whole financially. Short-term, that might work. Long-term? Good luck
I'm not concerned with leaving vacuums. I would deal with the next round of scumbags quickly as well. If they continue to ruthlessly attack innocent people the results won't change, they'll no longer exist. As far as the middle east in particular long-term? We may have to be a bit anachronistic and upset a few people.
Why do you claim that is our right?
Quote from: tower912 on October 21, 2023, 08:23:17 AM
If you want to really cripple the middle east, buy an electric car.
Are you really suggesting that? Can't I just get a bumper sticker instead?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 08:24:52 AM
I'm not concerned with leaving vacuums. I would deal with the next round of scumbags quickly as well. If they continue to ruthlessly attack innocent people the results won't change, they'll no longer exist. As far as the middle east in particular long-term? We may have to be a bit anachronistic and upset a few people.
So, that means occupying or colonizing whatever region flares up.
What's the human cost and taxpayer cost? What in our history of let's say, the last 20 years or so, says that will work?
Quote from: tower912 on October 21, 2023, 08:25:58 AM
Why do you claim that is our right?
Tower,
I'm truly not thrilled about this option, or dominating the world to the level I'm suggesting, but tbe alternative may very well be way, way, way, worse. We have a right to protect humanity imo as we did close to 80 yrs ago.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 21, 2023, 08:28:53 AM
So, that means occupying or colonizing whatever region flares up.
What's the human cost and taxpayer cost? What in our history of let's say, the last 20 years or so, says that will work?
It would appear that Muggsy's plan is akin to the idea of:
"The beatings will continue until morale improves...." just far far far more violent.
Quote from: forgetful on October 21, 2023, 08:32:45 AM
It would appear that Muggsy's plan is akin to the idea of:
"The beatings will continue until morale improves...." just far far far more violent.
I did not say that at all. Stop putting words in other posters' mouths and trying to clarify everything.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 08:37:48 AM
I did not say that at all. Stop putting words in other posters' mouths and trying to clarify everything.
He never claimed you said that.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 08:39:17 AM
He never claimed you said that.
He's "analyzing" my plan which I haven't even shared.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 08:40:44 AM
He's "analyzing" my plan which I haven't even shared.
Huh, how about that.
Does the plan include the end of democracy in America, installing a strong leader who will do what has to be done and suspending the other branches of government? Does it involve reinstating the draft to get the manpower necessary? Does it involve employing US military power without regard to the rest of the world's opinion and without regard to collateral damage?
Because there is no plan you can possibly have that does not involve at least some of these.
You are learning the wrong lessons from history.
Guys, I'm starting to think Muggsy may not actually have a plan.
I think he does. I just think it is one that will not stand up to scrutiny.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 07:43:30 AM
To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.
But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.
And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.
And none of this means I am antisemetic.
Card carrying member of the Scoop 10, aina?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2023, 09:24:19 AM
Guys, I'm starting to think Muggsy may not actually have a plan.
Oh, he has a plan. Unfortunately Scoopers are treating this insane asshat with kid gloves while he calls for the U.S. to go on a global reign of terror and murder millions of people.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 07:43:30 AM
To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.
But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.
And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.
And none of this means I am antisemetic.
The trouble with arguing with Heisey is he doesn't want to discuss anything in good faith. He takes your argument, and then assumes you mean something else, and then pounces on that idea.
It isn't a good use of anyone's time to even acknowledge what he's saying. Muggsy is very different, he's just an emotional person who hasn't thought through his ideas.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 08:24:52 AM
I'm not concerned with leaving vacuums. I would deal with the next round of scumbags quickly as well. If they continue to ruthlessly attack innocent people the results won't change, they'll no longer exist. As far as the middle east in particular long-term? We may have to be a bit anachronistic and upset a few people.
I guess you missed the part where I said you can't kill an ideology with a gun.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 21, 2023, 09:52:41 AM
It isn't a good use of anyone's time to even acknowledge what he's saying.
On ignore since the end of June. So, we agree.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 21, 2023, 08:31:51 AM
Tower,
I'm truly not thrilled about this option, or dominating the world to the level I'm suggesting, but tbe alternative may very well be way, way, way, worse. We have a right to protect humanity imo as we did close to 80 yrs ago.
You believe that an attack on Israel could spill over to nonstop attacks everywhere in the world without US intervention? Why does this conflict matter more than the other atrocities going on in the world right now?
That statement ties into Muggsy's belief that the US and Allies should have turned on Stalin at the end of WWII. It is a consistent ideology. One that the US has a responsibility, a duty, to eradicate perceived evil in the world through military might and impose its own will in the new colonies it will create.
Quote from: tower912 on October 21, 2023, 10:05:40 AM
That statement ties into Muggsy's belief that the US and Allies should have turned on Stalin at the end of WWII. It is a consistent ideology. One that the US has a responsibility, a duty, to eradicate perceived evil in the world through military might and impose its own will in the new colonies it will create.
Well that tracks because he is easily swayed by propaganda. American Exceptionalism made human.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 21, 2023, 09:30:52 AM
Oh, he has a plan. Unfortunately Scoopers are treating this insane asshat with kid gloves while he calls for the U.S. to go on a global reign of terror and murder millions of people.
All in the name of potentially saving thousands of lives. It's amazing actually.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2023, 09:27:20 AM
Card carrying member of the Scoop 10, aina?
So 4E, while I don't appreciate this continued line of yours, I have to admit, I've given your thoughts and words a lot of credence over the last few days. I don't like the feeling of being labeled an antisemite, selfish for sure. So, I started thinking of it in terms of how I have evolved in my views of racism towards Black people over the years. I've challenged myself over and over with the way I was raised, why I think the way I do, how my words/thoughts/actions/arguments could be viewed as casual racism, or even overt racism.
So, because I admittedly let you get under my skin (specifically chosen words), I decided to start putting in the same effort into antisemitism knowledge as I put into racism against Black people (which you may deem antisemitic as it's clear I have not done enough up to this point in my life, I can accept that). And, perhaps you're right, perhaps calling out the actions of the Israeli government with or without context is antisemitic. Perhaps stating with or without context leaning pro-Palestine free state is antisemitic. Perhaps me even using the "token-Jewish family members/friend trope" is antisemitic. So, while I hate to hear it, I'll take your criticisms to heart. It would be helpful if when you call me an antisemite to tell me why you feel that way or why I am being that way. I realize it's not your job, so I totally get it if you give me the wake the F up Muggsy treatment and tell me to figure it out on my own.
Be well 4E, I appreciate when you offer thoughtful and insightful posts.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 15, 2023, 04:59:22 PM
Look back to how the Allies handled the end and aftermath of World War II. Rather than punishing the Axis powers, the propped up Japan and Germany, learning from the mistakes of the post-WWI fallout that led Germany right back to war less than 2 decades later. Those countries became industrial, economic, and democratic powers. They became some of our most important allies in the generations to come. Helping our enemies created allies.
But what else did we do? We dropped bombs to send a warning to the Soviet Union. That led to them pursuing the atomic bomb themselves, the Cold War, and our biggest geopolitical enemy for generations. We also bombed Palestinians out of their homes and helped create what turned into an apartheid state in Israel. Rather than the Allies being willing to cede territory of their own for a new Jewish home state, they deliberately created the situation that led to where we are now.
None of this excuses Hamas. What they did was terrible, awful, evil. But if the response is to raze Gaza, to punish 2 million Palestinians for the actions of a minority, we WILL create a bigger problem down the line. Because that is flawed thinking born out by generations of matching violence with violence. Give them the opportunity to thrive, like we did with Germany and Japan, and they will thrive. Give them hate and they will revisit that hate on you.
While I agree with your overall point in your post, you ignored one very important thing.
We eliminated the entire leadership of Germany and Japan before we helped them rebuild.
The same must be done with Hamas before we even think about helping rebuild in the Gaza Strip. To spend money rebuilding there now is insane. We would just be handing $$$ to Hamas.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 21, 2023, 10:24:56 AM
So 4E, while I don't appreciate this continued line of yours, I have to admit, I've given your thoughts and words a lot of credence over the last few days. I don't like the feeling of being labeled an antisemite, selfish for sure. So, I started thinking of it in terms of how I have evolved in my views of racism towards Black people over the years. I've challenged myself over and over with the way I was raised, why I think the way I do, how my words/thoughts/actions/arguments could be viewed as casual racism, or even overt racism.
So, because I admittedly let you get under my skin (specifically chosen words), I decided to start putting in the same effort into antisemitism knowledge as I put into racism against Black people (which you may deem antisemitic as it's clear I have not done enough up to this point in my life, I can accept that). And, perhaps you're right, perhaps calling out the actions of the Israeli government with or without context is antisemitic. Perhaps stating with or without context leaning pro-Palestine free state is antisemitic. Perhaps me even using the "token-Jewish family members/friend trope" is antisemitic. So, while I hate to hear it, I'll take your criticisms to heart. It would be helpful if when you call me an antisemite to tell me why you feel that way or why I am being that way. I realize it's not your job, so I totally get it if you give me the wake the F up Muggsy treatment and tell me to figure it out on my own.
Be well 4E, I appreciate when you offer thoughtful and insightful posts.
Problem is that is like 5 or 6 in about as many years.
Quote from: Jockey on October 21, 2023, 11:07:43 AM
While I agree with your overall point in your post, you ignored one very important thing.
We eliminated the entire leadership of Germany and Japan before we helped them rebuild.
The same must be done with Hamas before we even think about helping rebuild in the Gaza Strip. To spend money rebuilding there now is insane. We would just be handing $$$ to Hamas.
He never said we shouldn't eliminate Hamas.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 10:10:22 AM
All in the name of potentially saving thousands of lives. It's amazing actually.
I figured it out. Muggsy is Peacemaker!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8qXRDFVcAUT3qW.jpg:large)
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 07:43:30 AM
To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.
But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.
And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.
And none of this means I am antisemetic.
What do you object to?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 01:34:21 PM
What do you object to?
Their expansion of settlements in the West Bank. It shows that they aren't really negotiating with Palestinians in good faith.
Quote from: forgetful on October 21, 2023, 08:07:51 AM
Looks like you said the silent part (you believe in) out loud. While the people you continuously accuse of hate, advocate for saving lives everywhere. You have directly posted, that in your opinion BOTH sides want to ELIMINATE each other.
And, you advocate then for eliminating the Palestinians as the only route to peace.
You directly state, what you accuse others of secretly believing.
Meanwhile, everyone else, you accuse of such vile ideology, renounce it, and instead believe that the Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to establishing independent states in the holy land, and can both live and coexist in peace with a proper peace plan establishing two-states with borders based on something like the 1967, 1969 borders.
If you had actually read my original post (everything in the post has been subsequently posted on here in shorter and more succinct and better worded ways). It said the problem was people who believe like you and Hamas do. That the only way to peace is to annihilate the other side, and to unify all of the region under one sides rule, strictly based on religious beliefs.
That belief is abhorrent, and is the cause of decades of violence.
I did not say both sides had to eliminate each other. I said the way to get peace, as it has been throughout human history, is for one side to win an unconditional surrender over the other.
What is happening now, the status quo,
is both sides eliminating each other.
Why did we nuke Japan twice and instantly kill over 100,000 innocent Japanese civilians? Was that a war crime? I do not recall seeing Truman in the Hague being prosecuted.
It was done because it was a message to tell the Japanese to stop. They did, and unconditional surrender was signed on the Missouri a month later.
So why were over 100,000 civilians killed to get the Japanese to stop? The estimates were between one and two million would have been killed attacking the Japanese Mainland. So, this was the least bad option.
Similarly, CNN is reporting the ground war is imminent. The fight has broken out on the Isreal-Lebanon border. It is about to get ugly real fast.
I see what is about to happen as the least bad option. So does President Biden and the European leaders that green-lighted Israel's right to defend itself.
These world leaders knew what was about to happen. Question: Are all of you who say Israel has the right to defend itself that what is about to happen okay?
How about you? If not, what does "Israel has the right to defend itself" mean?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 07:43:30 AM
To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 21, 2023, 09:52:41 AM
The trouble with arguing with Heisey is he doesn't want to discuss anything in good faith. He takes your argument, and then assumes you mean something else, and then pounces on that idea.
It isn't a good use of anyone's time to even acknowledge what he's saying. Muggsy is very different, he's just an emotional person who hasn't thought through his ideas.
Snowflake talk ... words mean what I personally want them to mean, not what they are understood to mean in the real world.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 01:51:56 PM
Snowflake talk ... words mean what I personally want them to mean, not what they are understood to mean in the real world.
Who wants to tell him he's actually the one who takes people's words to mean what he wants them to mean, not what they mean in the real world? (That's why he always feels he's being ganged up on - because everyone all says "yeah no that's not what those words mean.")
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 01:41:56 PM
Their expansion of settlements in the West Bank. It shows that they aren't really negotiating with Palestinians in good faith.
It is their ancestral land: Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Pesach, and Hag Hamatzot, where Passover began. The West Bank is where Judaism started, a thousand years before Islam.
So, what is your objection to Jews in Jewish land?
Why are the Palestinians unable to share the land with Israel?
----
What is the Palestinian group Israel negotiates with? What is their current position?
Why did the Palestinians walk away from the Olso peace accords in the early 1990s. A two-state solution was on the table.
Could the answer be the Palestinians, or at least their leaders, are not interested in a two-state solution? They are anti-Zionist and want the destruction of Israel and the elimination of all Jews.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 21, 2023, 01:54:00 PM
Who wants to tell him he's actually the one who takes people's words to mean what he wants them to mean, not what they mean in the real world? (That's why he always feels he's being ganged up on - because everyone all says "yeah no that's not what those words mean.")
Be specific. What words do you think the real world has a different meaning?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 02:08:39 PM
Be specific. What words do you think the real world has a different meaning?
What is your question even asking?
Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah El-Sisi has pushed back against the idea of taking in Palestinian refugees on the grounds that doing so might allow Hamas fighters into Egypt. He and other Arab leaders have also said displacing people from Gaza would end hopes for a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-21/aid-crosses-into-gaza-for-first-time-since-war-began-tv-reports
What is the two-state solution they are proposing? Answer: none.
They view the Palasteisninas as dangerous (might allow Hamas fighters into Egypt ... Hamas is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which has already tried to overthrow the Egyptian government at least once), and El-Sisi thinks they are more valuable as human shields to get slaughtered by the Israelis.
Israelis seem to care more about the Palestinians than the rest of the Arab world.
Or, here is their solution on who should take in two million Palestinians.
Again, Isreal cares more about Palestinians than the Arab World.
Egypt's Leader Says Israel Should Take In People Fleeing Gaza
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-18/egypt-rejects-any-attempt-to-move-gaza-palestinians-to-sinai
Egypt's leader said Israel should be the one to take in Palestinians, rejecting any idea that his country could host Gazans displaced by the fighting between Israel and Hamas.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 02:06:38 PM
It is their ancestral land: Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Pesach, and Hag Hamatzot, where Passover began. The West Bank is where Judaism started, a thousand years before Islam. Who cares? Should the US give all of the US back to the indigenous First People? Before Judaism, there was still people in the area, do they have a better claim and should Israel cede it to them?
So, what is your objection to Jews in Jewish land? None
Why are the Palestinians unable to share the land with Israel? They have been, but settlers have been destroying Palestinian home in the West Bank and taking their land by force.
----
What is the Palestinian group Israel negotiates with? What is their current position? Depends on the area, Hamas and the PA. Current position on what? Israel's existence?
Why did the Palestinians walk away from the Olso peace accords in the early 1990s. A two-state solution was on the table. Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine
Could the answer be the Palestinians, or at least their leaders, are not interested in a two-state solution? They are anti-Zionist and want the destruction of Israel and the elimination of all Jews. Surely not all Palestinians. You're not blinded enough to actually think that.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 21, 2023, 02:14:12 PM
What is your question even asking?
I think I misread you ... apologies.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 02:06:38 PM
It is their ancestral land: Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Pesach, and Hag Hamatzot, where Passover began. The West Bank is where Judaism started, a thousand years before Islam.
So, what is your objection to Jews in Jewish land?
It is their ancestral land. It is indeed where Judaism started.
Neither of those things matter now. It is not Israel's legal territory. And Ariel Sharon rejected the Roadmap for Peace brokered by GWB because he refused to halt settlements. So you can't claim that it's only Palestine.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 02:20:52 PM
It is their ancestral land. It is indeed where Judaism started.
Neither of those things matter now. It is not Israel's legal territory. And Ariel Sharon rejected the Roadmap for Peace brokered by GWB because he refused to halt settlements. So you can't claim that it's only Palestine.
Legal under want law?
This gets back to my position... peace comes about when one side prevails over the other. Until that happens, this never ends.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 02:26:03 PM
Legal under want law?
This gets back to my position... peace comes about when one side prevails over the other. Until that happens, this never ends.
International law does not recognize the West Bank as Israel's territory. Additionally, Israel's supreme court recognizes the West Bank (except East Jerusalem) as occupied territory.
edit: Here. I'll help
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank
October 21, 2023
Egypt's Gaza Summit Highlights Calls for Two-State Solution
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-21/egypt-s-gaza-summit-starts-with-arab-call-for-two-state-solution
Arab leaders dubbed Israel's retaliatory strikes on Gaza "collective punishment" as they and some European officials stressed that a stable and secure outcome to the Israel-Palestinian conflict must be built on a two-state solution
It's unclear if anything new will emerge from the meeting to address what many in the region, and in Europe, see as the root cause of the continued violence – the lack of progress on securing an equitable two-state solution for Israel and Palestine.
---
This means they have no two-state solution and are not interested in one.
Saying the words makes Western Progressives happy, so they happily repeat these empty gestures.
Just say two-state solution, but never propose one.
No one in the Arab world really cares about the Palestinians. If they did, one of the 55 Arab and Islamic countries would accept refugees. Exactly zero are taking them.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 21, 2023, 02:28:17 PM
International law does not recognize the West Bank as Israel's territory. Additionally, Israel's supreme court recognizes the West Bank (except East Jerusalem) as occupied territory.
edit: Here. I'll help
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank
The Palestinians should sue
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 02:26:03 PM
Legal under want law?
This gets back to my position... peace comes about when one side prevails over the other. Until that happens, this never ends.
Settlements have spread into areas of the West Bank under Palestinian administrative control (area B), as agreed to by Israel, because the Israeli army maintains security control and allows it.
Not to mention by international law it's not really theirs to occupy.
And finally Israel HAS prevailed over the West Bank Palestinians. But they show no interest in sticking to agreements with them because of short term political thinking.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 21, 2023, 02:14:12 PM
What is your question even asking?
That's what we're all wondering. It doesn't even matter though. He is strictly here to argue.
Porn star Mia Khalifa (Lebonaese born) said this about the attack by Hamas
"Can someone please tell the freedom fighters in Palestine to turn their phones sideways while recording videos?"
Playboy dropped her, and Pornhub (run out of Germany!) not only de-monetized her and donated her revenues to Isreal!!
Her response to all this ...
@miakhalifa
I'd say supporting Palestine has lost me business opportunities, but I'm more angry at myself for not checking whether or not I was entering into business with Zionists. My bad.
-----
Seems the porn community has more moral clarity on what is happening than many on this board.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 02:32:16 PM
No one in the Arab world really cares about the Palestinians. If they did, one of the 55 Arab and Islamic countries would accept refugees. Exactly zero are taking them.
I don't know how much/little Arab nations care about Palestinians, but that's not why they won't accept refugees.
They won't accept refugees because they fear, as in after previous wars, Israel wants to permanently displace Palestinian civilians from their homes.
As are most things there, it's far more complicated than you present it.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2023, 03:00:36 PM
I don't know how much/little Arab nations care about Palestinians, but that's not why they won't accept refugees.
They won't accept refugees because they fear, as in after previous wars, Israel wants to permanently displace Palestinian civilians from their homes.
As are most things there, it's far more complicated than you present it.
As I said, the Arab world likes using the Palestinians as human shields.
Quote from: forgetful on October 21, 2023, 08:07:51 AM
Looks like you said the silent part (you believe in) out loud. While the people you continuously accuse of hate, advocate for saving lives everywhere. You have directly posted, that in your opinion BOTH sides want to ELIMINATE each other.
And, you advocate then for eliminating the Palestinians as the only route to peace.
You directly state, what you accuse others of secretly believing.
Meanwhile, everyone else, you accuse of such vile ideology, renounce it, and instead believe that the Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to establishing independent states in the holy land, and can both live and coexist in peace with a proper peace plan establishing two-states with borders based on something like the 1967, 1969 borders.
If you had actually read my original post (everything in the post has been subsequently posted on here in shorter and more succinct and better worded ways). It said the problem was people who believe like you and Hamas do. That the only way to peace is to annihilate the other side, and to unify all of the region under one sides rule, strictly based on religious beliefs.
That belief is abhorrent, and is the cause of decades of violence.
"World views incompatible with each other " is a slippery slope into genocidal language.
No it's just incompatible with what he thinks is right and wrong which that wrong is definitely Islam.
I appreciate him speaking out about only watching moral pornography though.
From a friend of a friend. Names removed for their privacy.
Hello my friends. This is my first FB post in nearly 7 years. With that said, it is also the only social media platform I have, so I hope people still use FB.
I would like to share with you an experience I had last night. XXXXXXXXXXXX and I went to the Dave Chappelle-Standup Comedy show at TD Garden with three other couples. What started out as a funny and joyful evening for the 8 of us ending with disgust and fear.
Towards the end of his act, Chappelle mentioned the war in Israel and how he as a Muslim denounces Israel for its treatment of the people in Gaza and started to add in lots of false and unsubstantiated claims. A gentleman towards the front yelled out "You should shut the F up". Chappelle lost it on the man yelling, "You do not tell me to shut the F up at MY show". Chappelle then started on a tirade of his beliefs leaving comedy behind and focusing purely on the politics.
While that was awful in itself, what made my heart sink and started to invoke fear was when the crowd of nearly 20,000 people started yelling out "Go Palestine. Go Hamas." and other related hatful jargon. The audience was cheering Chappelle on during his tirade. I was sick. We were sick. I turned to my friends and wife and said I think it is time to go. We walked out and met up with many other Jews leaving the show. Never in my life have I felt so unsafe and so fearful of what I was witnessing. The words alone were horrific, but we were vulnerable in a public forum. How could we know what would happen? Could violence against the Jewish members in the audience break out?
Here in Boston, how was there so much hate for Jews. How could a comedy show provide such a mechanism for people to verbally shout our their hatred for Jews? The unfortunate icing on the cake was that all cell phones and communication devices had to be locked up so there is no video or audio evidence. With that, I am hoping social media can spread this word.
If you have made it this far and know how to use social media better than me, please share and see if we can get this to the Boston Globe. Thank you! Boston Globe Opinion.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2023, 06:34:14 PM
From a friend of a friend. Names removed for their privacy.
Hello my friends. This is my first FB post in nearly 7 years. With that said, it is also the only social media platform I have, so I hope people still use FB.
I would like to share with you an experience I had last night. XXXXXXXXXXXX and I went to the Dave Chappelle-Standup Comedy show at TD Garden with three other couples. What started out as a funny and joyful evening for the 8 of us ending with disgust and fear.
Towards the end of his act, Chappelle mentioned the war in Israel and how he as a Muslim denounces Israel for its treatment of the people in Gaza and started to add in lots of false and unsubstantiated claims. A gentleman towards the front yelled out "You should shut the F up". Chappelle lost it on the man yelling, "You do not tell me to shut the F up at MY show". Chappelle then started on a tirade of his beliefs leaving comedy behind and focusing purely on the politics.
While that was awful in itself, what made my heart sink and started to invoke fear was when the crowd of nearly 20,000 people started yelling out "Go Palestine. Go Hamas." and other related hatful jargon. The audience was cheering Chappelle on during his tirade. I was sick. We were sick. I turned to my friends and wife and said I think it is time to go. We walked out and met up with many other Jews leaving the show. Never in my life have I felt so unsafe and so fearful of what I was witnessing. The words alone were horrific, but we were vulnerable in a public forum. How could we know what would happen? Could violence against the Jewish members in the audience break out?
Here in Boston, how was there so much hate for Jews. How could a comedy show provide such a mechanism for people to verbally shout our their hatred for Jews? The unfortunate icing on the cake was that all cell phones and communication devices had to be locked up so there is no video or audio evidence. With that, I am hoping social media can spread this word.
If you have made it this far and know how to use social media better than me, please share and see if we can get this to the Boston Globe. Thank you! Boston Globe Opinion.
We can't get 20,000 in the arena on the same page for MU basketball and yet Boston was all-in on the synchronicity of the most recent flare up of a centuries old war?
America is back, baby.
A provoacateur gets into an argument. I have to believe you view him as a kindred spirit, doc.
Yes, can't let this chit go unchecked. Gotta push back... Kolek Chapelle, aina?
I know the feeling.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2023, 06:34:14 PM
From a friend of a friend. Names removed for their privacy.
Hello my friends. This is my first FB post in nearly 7 years. With that said, it is also the only social media platform I have, so I hope people still use FB.
I would like to share with you an experience I had last night. XXXXXXXXXXXX and I went to the Dave Chappelle-Standup Comedy show at TD Garden with three other couples. What started out as a funny and joyful evening for the 8 of us ending with disgust and fear.
Towards the end of his act, Chappelle mentioned the war in Israel and how he as a Muslim denounces Israel for its treatment of the people in Gaza and started to add in lots of false and unsubstantiated claims. A gentleman towards the front yelled out "You should shut the F up". Chappelle lost it on the man yelling, "You do not tell me to shut the F up at MY show". Chappelle then started on a tirade of his beliefs leaving comedy behind and focusing purely on the politics.
While that was awful in itself, what made my heart sink and started to invoke fear was when the crowd of nearly 20,000 people started yelling out "Go Palestine. Go Hamas." and other related hatful jargon. The audience was cheering Chappelle on during his tirade. I was sick. We were sick. I turned to my friends and wife and said I think it is time to go. We walked out and met up with many other Jews leaving the show. Never in my life have I felt so unsafe and so fearful of what I was witnessing. The words alone were horrific, but we were vulnerable in a public forum. How could we know what would happen? Could violence against the Jewish members in the audience break out?
Here in Boston, how was there so much hate for Jews. How could a comedy show provide such a mechanism for people to verbally shout our their hatred for Jews? The unfortunate icing on the cake was that all cell phones and communication devices had to be locked up so there is no video or audio evidence. With that, I am hoping social media can spread this word.
If you have made it this far and know how to use social media better than me, please share and see if we can get this to the Boston Globe. Thank you! Boston Globe Opinion.
Actually, Chappelle criticized HAmas for attacking Israel first and then went on to criticize Israeli treatment of Palestinians.
But I'm glad you found a source (FB) that you believe 100%.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 21, 2023, 04:14:55 PM
"World views incompatible with each other " is a slippery slope into genocidal language.
No it's just incompatible with what he thinks is right and wrong which that wrong is definitely Islam.
I appreciate him speaking out about only watching moral pornography though.
All the criticisms about a two-state solution, settlements in the West Bank, it's complicated, good (or bad) people on both sides have at their heart an assumption that these two sides can find common ground and live together.
We have about 2,000 years of history showing they cannot.
So, they either keep killing each other slowly over time. Or we let them at it and let one side prevail.
I have defined this problem as both sides viewing their existence as at stake. So, both sides feel they cannot lose this fight and will do whatever it takes.
They are right. It is a fight about existence. This is why all the nuisance is misplaced. There is no way they can co-exist.
---
To be clear. This is among a specific type of Arab called a Palestinian. A group of people have never lived in Palestine, as Palestine has never existed as a separate country.
The larger Arab community, which includes Palestinians, is less and less having a problem with Israel. 20% of Israelis are Arab (versus 0% of Palestine is Jewish). Some countries, via the Abraham Accords, have normalized relations with Israel (UAE and Qatar). The Saudis were close (it has been heavily speculated that blowing up this deal motivated the attack on October 7).
--
So you have two options: kill each other in bunches for the rest of time. Or settle this once and for all and have a lasting peace. We settled it once and for all with Japan in August 1945. It was horrible. But now we have a lasting peace and a close ally in Japan.
This gets rejected because it requires the world to make a judgment of choosing one side or the other. But this is the way it works., When two incompatible views of the world exist, one has to prevail.
---
ADDED LATER
We did not genocide Japan out of existence
We did not genocide Germany out of existence
We did not genocide the confederacy out of existence.
Israel will not genocide the Palestinians out of existence. They will go until the Palestinians give up the fight and accept peace and co-existence.
Can you say the same about the Palestinians? If they had the means, where would the Palestinians stop against the Jews in Isreal?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
All the criticisms about a two-state solution, settlements in the West Bank, it's complicated, good (or bad) people on both sides have at their heart an assumption that these two sides can find common ground and live together.
We have about 2,000 years of history showing they cannot.
This is really not accurate. But the time Islam reached the area, it was populated mostly by Christians since Jews had largely been dispersed away from the mideast, and the area remained with a relatively small Jewish population until after WW2.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 07:32:06 PM
This is really not accurate. But the time Islam reached the area, it was populated mostly by Christians since Jews had largely been dispersed away from the mideast, and the area remained with a relatively small Jewish population until after WW2.
Do you believe the Jews and the Arabs could co-exist until 1947?
Or, to use the inflammatory word we like around here, were the Jews genocided out of the area until 1947 ... as they were in Germany until 1945?
This history has the Isreal united under the "never again" belief.
Americans, being ignorant and self-absorbed, make things worse. See 4E Dave Chappelle post.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 07:35:15 PM
Do you believe the Jews and the Arabs could co-exist until 1947?
That's a weird way of saying "yeah I was wrong about that."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 21, 2023, 07:36:36 PM
That's a weird way of saying "yeah I was wrong about that."
Desperate to make this into a bunch of nothing.
This is your typical battle cry on the board. "<fill in the blank> will be fine" is what you always say. It is the progressive battle cry. You can tear down everything you do not believe in because "everything will be fine" when you are done.
Israel will be fine if they calm down .. Right "Leader of Muslims."
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 07:42:26 PM
Desperate to make this into a bunch of nothing.
This is your typical battle cry on the board. "<fill in the blank> will be fine" is what you always say. It is the progressive battle cry. You can tear down everything you do not believe in because "everything will be fine" when you are done.
Israel will be fine if they calm down .. Right "Leader of Muslims."
LOL, what the f*ck are you even talking about now? Too much wine with dinner?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 07:42:26 PM
Desperate to make this into a bunch of nothing.
This is your typical battle cry on the board. "<fill in the blank> will be fine" is what you always say. It is the progressive battle cry. You can tear down everything you do not believe in because "everything will be fine" when you are done.
Israel will be fine if they calm down .. Right "Leader of Muslims."
I agree with this analysis
To be clear, he's ok with what comes next, no matter how hard it may be to look at
October 21, 2023
'I am a Zionist': How Joe Biden's lifelong bond with Israel shapes war policy
https://news.yahoo.com/am-zionist-joe-bidens-lifelong-141401442.html
When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: "I don't believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist."
Biden, who is of Irish Catholic descent, has used similar words in the past to profess his affinity for Israel. But the moment, which has not been previously reported, illustrates how Biden's decades as one of the leading "Friends of Israel" in American politics seem to be guiding him during a defining crisis of his presidency.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 07:35:15 PM
Do you believe the Jews and the Arabs could co-exist until 1947?
Or, to use the inflammatory word we like around here, were the Jews genocided out of the area until 1947 ... as they were in Germany until 1945?
This history has the Isreal united under the "never again" belief.
Americans, being ignorant and self-absorbed, make things worse. See 4E Dave Chappelle post.
That Mufti guy visited Germany in 1943 Heisy. So they coexisted I suppose but it wasn't exactly peaches and cream. I also can't think of another country that was attacked, and attacked, and attacked, and attacked and then wound up giving back territory they had won after a war. We also seem to forget how things were for Palestinians when Jordan, Egypt, and Syria controlled major territories. Israel is freaking tiny compared to the vast area of the Middle East.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
All the criticisms about a two-state solution, settlements in the West Bank, it's complicated, good (or bad) people on both sides have at their heart an assumption that these two sides can find common ground and live together.
We have about 2,000 years of history showing they cannot.
So, they either keep killing each other slowly over time. Or we let them at it and let one side prevail.
I have defined this problem as both sides viewing their existence as at stake. So, both sides feel they cannot lose this fight and will do whatever it takes.
They are right. It is a fight about existence. This is why all the nuisance is misplaced. There is no way they can co-exist.
---
To be clear. This is among a specific type of Arab called a Palestinian. A group of people have never lived in Palestine, as Palestine has never existed as a separate country.
The larger Arab community, which includes Palestinians, is less and less having a problem with Israel. 20% of Israelis are Arab (versus 0% of Palestine is Jewish). Some countries, via the Abraham Accords, have normalized relations with Israel (UAE and Qatar). The Saudis were close (it has been heavily speculated that blowing up this deal motivated the attack on October 7).
--
So you have two options: kill each other in bunches for the rest of time. Or settle this once and for all and have a lasting peace. We settled it once and for all with Japan in August 1945. It was horrible. But now we have a lasting peace and a close ally in Japan.
This gets rejected because it requires the world to make a judgment of choosing one side or the other. But this is the way it works., When two incompatible views of the world exist, one has to prevail.
---
ADDED LATER
We did not genocide Japan out of existence
We did not genocide Germany out of existence
We did not genocide the confederacy out of existence.
Israel will not genocide the Palestinians out of existence. They will go until the Palestinians give up the fight and accept peace and co-existence.
Can you say the same about the Palestinians? If they had the means, where would the Palestinians stop against the Jews in Isreal?
139/193 countries in the UN recognize Palestine, a place you are insisting has never existed. Weird. Many global leaders are qualifying the actions of the Israeli government as genocidal, but again in your mind you can't genocide those who don't exist (back to the whole subhuman thing). But whatever you say buddy. To you it's all about whether the right people are dying, and accusing those who would prefer either side not die of antisemitism, thereby discounting the word and accusation itself of something very real and problematic in our modern world.
So bravo on that. If bad faith arguments were currency you could have bought out Wojo's contract yourself.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 02:32:16 PM
October 21, 2023
Egypt's Gaza Summit Highlights Calls for Two-State Solution
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-21/egypt-s-gaza-summit-starts-with-arab-call-for-two-state-solution
Arab leaders dubbed Israel's retaliatory strikes on Gaza "collective punishment" as they and some European officials stressed that a stable and secure outcome to the Israel-Palestinian conflict must be built on a two-state solution
It's unclear if anything new will emerge from the meeting to address what many in the region, and in Europe, see as the root cause of the continued violence – the lack of progress on securing an equitable two-state solution for Israel and Palestine.
---
This means they have no two-state solution and are not interested in one.
Saying the words makes Western Progressives happy, so they happily repeat these empty gestures.
Just say two-state solution, but never propose one.
No one in the Arab world really cares about the Palestinians. If they did, one of the 55 Arab and Islamic countries would accept refugees. Exactly zero are taking them.
This just in: the big Arab summit saying a two-state solution was absolutely necessary ended a few hours ago ... without a proposal for a two-state solution.
Why? Because they don't want one! They want a one-state solution ... "from the river to the sea ..."
Meanwhile, the "moderate" Palestinian Authority in the West Bank just issued this a few days ago for prayers at temples this weekend:
October 21, 2023
Palestinian Authority issues document containing Islamic verse calling to "murder Jews", tells mosque clerics to incite violencehttps://www.opindia.com/2023/10/palestinian-authority-issues-document-containing-islamic-verse-calling-to-murder-jews/
The PA document asserts that Palestine cannot raise the white flag until Israel is defeated and a Palestinian state is established. It also talks about making Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state after "defeating" Israel.
A one-page document dated 18 October 2023 was issued by the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs. The document issued to imams of mosques lays down directives for Friday (Jummah) sermons. This document contains a verse that calls for the murder of all Jews by Muslims.
The document termed the attack on Gaza's Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital that allegedly killed over 500 people as a "crime of the era" and blamed Israel for the attack despite the fact that it has been established that it was a failed Hamas rocket that hit the hospital.
The PA document asserts that Palestine cannot raise the white flag until Israel is defeated and a Palestinian state is established. It also mentions making Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state after "defeating" Israel.
The document inciting people to wage war against the Jews mentions Islamic verses, one of them from Sahih Al Bukhari (a collection of Hadith and book of Sunnah) which reads: "The hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, until the Jew hides behind the stones and trees and the stones or trees say, 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"
-----------
Palestinians, or
all their leaders, tell you to your face what they want— the end of Isreal and the death of all the Jews.
Why do they speak like this? Why do they celebrate the slaughter of 1,500 Israelis?
They know that the West is full of conceited progressives (like this board). When they read documents like the one above or see the slaughter the Palestinians committed. It "does not compute" in their brain.
The Palestinians know Western progressives will conclude that "this must be wrong or taken out of context" or use the code words of ignorance (it is "complicated" or "nuanced") or disassemble the situation (it is Hamas, not Palsteinsians because they need them to be different).
Why? This document or the attack is not how progressives act/believe. Western progressives have the conceit that they genuinely think everyone worldwide, from every/any culture, agrees with them because why wouldn't everyone hold a Western progressive view?
I'll repeat: this is a struggle for the existence of a race of people ... the Jews. They have been here many times before and will do whatever it takes to survive. And there will not be peace until one side or the other prevails.
It will get tough to look at, maybe starting in the next 24 to 48 hours (according to CNN).
Which side are you on?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 21, 2023, 08:31:25 PM
139/193 countries in the UN recognize Palestine, a place you are insisting has never existed. Weird. Many global leaders are qualifying the actions of the Israeli government as genocidal, but again in your mind you can't genocide those who don't exist (back to the whole subhuman thing). But whatever you say buddy. To you it's all about whether the right people are dying, and accusing those who would prefer either side not die of antisemitism, thereby discounting the word and accusation itself of something very real and problematic in our modern world.
So bravo on that. If bad faith arguments were currency you could have bought out Wojo's contract yourself.
Israel is a member state of the UN and has been since 1949. So, the mighty UN says two entities are the legitimate government of the same place.
Of those 139 countries that recognize Palestine are Ecuador, Egypt, India, Iceland, Romania, Poland, Burundi, Thailand, Tanzania, Iraq, and Russia.
And ... Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, the United Kingdom, and the United States
do not.
So PLM ... what is your solution to this dilemma?
----
And please provide a historical map showing Palestine as a separate country on the land that is Israel is now. I'll save you the trouble. One never existed.
The area was part of Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt in 1947. In 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt when Israel took it in the 1967 war.
----
From the history channel
https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine
What Is Palestine?The word Palestine derives from the Greek word, Philistia, which dates to Ancient Greek writers' descriptions of the region in the 12th century B.C. Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War I to 1918, Palestine typically referred to the geographic region located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.
Arab people who call this territory home have been known as Palestinians since the early 20th century. Much of this land is now considered present-day Israel.
----
Invented less than 100 years ago!
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 08:16:12 PM
To be clear, he's ok with what comes next, no matter how hard it may be to look at
October 21, 2023
'I am a Zionist': How Joe Biden's lifelong bond with Israel shapes war policy
https://news.yahoo.com/am-zionist-joe-bidens-lifelong-141401442.html
When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: "I don't believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist."
Biden, who is of Irish Catholic descent, has used similar words in the past to profess his affinity for Israel. But the moment, which has not been previously reported, illustrates how Biden's decades as one of the leading "Friends of Israel" in American politics seem to be guiding him during a defining crisis of his presidency.
BOTUS attempting to be JFK..."Ich bin ein Berliner."
#God save da Queen, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2023, 06:06:43 AM
BOTUS attempting to be JFK..."Ich bin ein Berliner."
#God save da Queen, aina?
Must really burn you he has unwavering support for Israel and their response. You can still score culture war points, however. Not all is lost for you
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 10:50:41 PM
Israel is a member state of the UN and has been since 1949. So, the mighty UN says two entities are the legitimate government of the same place.
Of those 139 countries that recognize Palestine are Ecuador, Egypt, India, Iceland, Romania, Poland, Burundi, Thailand, Tanzania, Iraq, and Russia.
And ... Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, the United Kingdom, and the United States do not.
So PLM ... what is your solution to this dilemma?
----
And please provide a historical map showing Palestine as a separate country on the land that is Israel is now. I'll save you the trouble. One never existed.
The area was part of Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt in 1947. In 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt when Israel took it in the 1967 war.
----
From the history channel
https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine
What Is Palestine?
The word Palestine derives from the Greek word, Philistia, which dates to Ancient Greek writers' descriptions of the region in the 12th century B.C. Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War I to 1918, Palestine typically referred to the geographic region located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. Arab people who call this territory home have been known as Palestinians since the early 20th century. Much of this land is now considered present-day Israel.
----
Invented less than 100 years ago!
Yet you claimed that they haven't gotten along for 2,000 years. Weird.
Anyway, ALL of the countries in that part of the world were "invented" about 100 years ago in the wake of the Ottoman Empire's collapse after WW1. Mostly by western powers drawing lines on a map. But that doesn't mean that there weren't actually people living there who were largely Islamic Arabs.
Not to mention that Israel itself is more of an invented country than any other! It came together mostly because the western powers bought into the idea that it would be nice to give Jews their homeland back, despite the fact that 99% of them hadn't lived there for centuries.
EDIT: And none of this matters! Israel is widely recognized as a state, as is Palestine. Israel has negotiated agreements with groups that they agree represent the Palestinian people. (Agreements they have violated BTW.)
So your desire to completely de-legitimize Palestine is really hollow and not very accurate.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2023, 06:06:43 AM
BOTUS attempting to be JFK..."Ich bin ein Berliner."
#God save da Queen, aina?
Thank goodness we have a president with empathy, one who is staunchly on Israel's side while appreciating the worldwide implications of war, one who doesn't make this all about himself, one who values American Jews as well as Israeli Jews, one who doesn't call Jew-hating white nationalists "very fine people," one who doesn't hold Ms. Jewish Space Laser in high regard, one who doesn't tell Jew-haters to "stand by" and wait for his orders, one who doesn't surround himself with Jew-haters, one who wants the best outcomes for as many people as possible, and one who doesn't repeatedly threaten to use nuclear weapons as if they're his personal toys.
My brother and SIL, who did not care for Obama and who did appreciate a couple of the pro-Israel moves that his successor made, mostly like Biden's response to this situation. But hey, they're not nearly as close to what's going on in Israel as a dentist from Mequon is.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 21, 2023, 06:34:14 PM
From a friend of a friend. Names removed for their privacy.
Hello my friends. This is my first FB post in nearly 7 years. With that said, it is also the only social media platform I have, so I hope people still use FB.
I would like to share with you an experience I had last night. XXXXXXXXXXXX and I went to the Dave Chappelle-Standup Comedy show at TD Garden with three other couples. What started out as a funny and joyful evening for the 8 of us ending with disgust and fear.
Towards the end of his act, Chappelle mentioned the war in Israel and how he as a Muslim denounces Israel for its treatment of the people in Gaza and started to add in lots of false and unsubstantiated claims. A gentleman towards the front yelled out "You should shut the F up". Chappelle lost it on the man yelling, "You do not tell me to shut the F up at MY show". Chappelle then started on a tirade of his beliefs leaving comedy behind and focusing purely on the politics.
While that was awful in itself, what made my heart sink and started to invoke fear was when the crowd of nearly 20,000 people started yelling out "Go Palestine. Go Hamas." and other related hatful jargon. The audience was cheering Chappelle on during his tirade. I was sick. We were sick. I turned to my friends and wife and said I think it is time to go. We walked out and met up with many other Jews leaving the show. Never in my life have I felt so unsafe and so fearful of what I was witnessing. The words alone were horrific, but we were vulnerable in a public forum. How could we know what would happen? Could violence against the Jewish members in the audience break out?
Here in Boston, how was there so much hate for Jews. How could a comedy show provide such a mechanism for people to verbally shout our their hatred for Jews? The unfortunate icing on the cake was that all cell phones and communication devices had to be locked up so there is no video or audio evidence. With that, I am hoping social media can spread this word.
If you have made it this far and know how to use social media better than me, please share and see if we can get this to the Boston Globe. Thank you! Boston Globe Opinion.
Dave Chappelle has also fallen pretty far in my eyes for other reasons as well.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 21, 2023, 10:39:33 PM
This just in: the big Arab summit saying a two-state solution was absolutely necessary ended a few hours ago ... without a proposal for a two-state solution.
Why? Because they don't want one! They want a one-state solution ... "from the river to the sea ..."
Meanwhile, the "moderate" Palestinian Authority in the West Bank just issued this a few days ago for prayers at temples this weekend:
October 21, 2023
Palestinian Authority issues document containing Islamic verse calling to "murder Jews", tells mosque clerics to incite violence
https://www.opindia.com/2023/10/palestinian-authority-issues-document-containing-islamic-verse-calling-to-murder-jews/
The PA document asserts that Palestine cannot raise the white flag until Israel is defeated and a Palestinian state is established. It also talks about making Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state after "defeating" Israel.
A one-page document dated 18 October 2023 was issued by the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs. The document issued to imams of mosques lays down directives for Friday (Jummah) sermons. This document contains a verse that calls for the murder of all Jews by Muslims.
The document termed the attack on Gaza's Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital that allegedly killed over 500 people as a "crime of the era" and blamed Israel for the attack despite the fact that it has been established that it was a failed Hamas rocket that hit the hospital.
The PA document asserts that Palestine cannot raise the white flag until Israel is defeated and a Palestinian state is established. It also mentions making Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state after "defeating" Israel.
The document inciting people to wage war against the Jews mentions Islamic verses, one of them from Sahih Al Bukhari (a collection of Hadith and book of Sunnah) which reads: "The hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, until the Jew hides behind the stones and trees and the stones or trees say, 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"
-----------
Palestinians, or all their leaders, tell you to your face what they want— the end of Isreal and the death of all the Jews.
Why do they speak like this? Why do they celebrate the slaughter of 1,500 Israelis?
They know that the West is full of conceited progressives (like this board). When they read documents like the one above or see the slaughter the Palestinians committed. It "does not compute" in their brain.
The Palestinians know Western progressives will conclude that "this must be wrong or taken out of context" or use the code words of ignorance (it is "complicated" or "nuanced") or disassemble the situation (it is Hamas, not Palsteinsians because they need them to be different).
Why? This document or the attack is not how progressives act/believe. Western progressives have the conceit that they genuinely think everyone worldwide, from every/any culture, agrees with them because why wouldn't everyone hold a Western progressive view?
I'll repeat: this is a struggle for the existence of a race of people ... the Jews. They have been here many times before and will do whatever it takes to survive. And there will not be peace until one side or the other prevails.
It will get tough to look at, maybe starting in the next 24 to 48 hours (according to CNN).
Which side are you on?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia
First two sentences. Stop being such a rube.
"OpIndia is an Indian right-wing news website that frequently publishes misinformation.[4][5][21] Founded in December 2014,[11] the website has published fake news and Islamophobic commentary on many occasions.[28]"
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 09:24:08 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia
First two sentences. Stop being such a rube.
"OpIndia is an Indian right-wing news website that frequently publishes misinformation.[4][5][21] Founded in December 2014,[11] the website has published fake news and Islamophobic commentary on many occasions.[28]"
What is the definition of a rube?
A guy who falls for anything if it supports his side? Or a guy who constantly argues with said guy?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 09:18:37 AM
Dave Chappelle has also fallen pretty far in my eyes for other reasons as well.
I assume the same folks pissed at Chapelle for speaking in support of Palestinians were celebrating Chapelle for making "alphabet people" jokes
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 09:24:08 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpIndia
First two sentences. Stop being such a rube.
"OpIndia is an Indian right-wing news website that frequently publishes misinformation.[4][5][21] Founded in December 2014,[11] the website has published fake news and Islamophobic commentary on many occasions.[28]"
Are you claiming this is not true? (Hint: the anti-semantic Western press does not want to report this).
https://www2.cbn.com/news/world/palestinian-authority-issues-call-murder-jews-tells-islamic-leaders-incite-violence
CBN News has reviewed the document written in Arabic and the translation is accurate. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F84Dwc7WYAAZHp3?format=png&name=900x900)
https://twitter.com/GadiTaub1/status/1715312782848000114
---
I wrote this in the same post, and you gave everyone a real-time example of how it works. For this, I owe you a giant thank you.----
Palestinians, or all their leaders, tell you to your face what they want— the end of Isreal and the death of all the Jews.
Why do they speak like this? Why do they celebrate the slaughter of 1,500 Israelis?
They know that the West is full of conceited progressives (like this board). When they read documents like the one above or see the slaughter the Palestinians committed. It "does not compute" in their brain.
The Palestinians know Western progressives will conclude that "this must be wrong or taken out of context" or use the code words of ignorance (it is "complicated" or "nuanced") or disassemble the situation (it is Hamas, not Palsteinsians because they need them to be different).
Why? This document or the attack is not how progressives act/believe. Western progressives have the conceit that they genuinely think everyone worldwide, from every/any culture, agrees with them because why wouldn't everyone hold a Western progressive view?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 22, 2023, 09:53:31 AM
I assume the same folks pissed at Chapelle for speaking in support of Palestinians were celebrating Chapelle for making "alphabet people" jokes
It's almost like Chapelle does this on purpose, aina?
Quote from: MU82 on October 22, 2023, 08:37:59 AM
Thank goodness we have a president with empathy, one who is staunchly on Israel's side while appreciating the worldwide implications of war, one who doesn't make this all about himself, one who values American Jews as well as Israeli Jews, one who doesn't call Jew-hating white nationalists "very fine people," one who doesn't hold Ms. Jewish Space Laser in high regard, one who doesn't tell Jew-haters to "stand by" and wait for his orders, one who doesn't surround himself with Jew-haters, one who wants the best outcomes for as many people as possible, and one who doesn't repeatedly threaten to use nuclear weapons as if they're his personal toys.
My brother and SIL, who did not care for Obama and who did appreciate a couple of the pro-Israel moves that his successor made, mostly like Biden's response to this situation. But hey, they're not nearly as close to what's going on in Israel as a dentist from Mequon is.
Man, you are seriously unhinged lately. Are you re-reading your posts in this thread?
I get it. You're torn between your love for your brother and SIL in Isreal and your blind rage and hatred for the orange man and the republican party.
Take some time off and figure out who is the real evil here. Hint: he is not in a courtroom. He is firing over 7300 rockets at your family.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:20:55 AM
Man, you are seriously unhinged lately. Are you re-reading your posts in this thread?
I get it. You're torn between your love for your brother and SIL in Isreal and your blind rage and hatred for the orange man and the republican party.
Take some time off and figure out who is the real evil here. Hint: he is not in a courtroom. He is firing over 7300 rockets at your family.
Irony is dead
Quote from: Jockey on October 22, 2023, 09:46:19 AM
What is the definition of a rube?
A guy who falls for anything if it supports his side? Or a guy who constantly argues with said guy?
You're right, I will stop arguing with you.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:20:55 AM
Man, you are seriously unhinged lately. Are you re-reading your posts in this thread?
I get it. You're torn between your love for your brother and SIL in Isreal and your blind rage and hatred for the orange man and the republican party.
Take some time off and figure out who is the real evil here. Hint: he is not in a courtroom. He is firing over 7300 rockets at your family.
Look in the mirror, pal. You have made at least a dozen truly unhinged posts in this thread, including your Joseph McCarthy schtick of saying that everyone who disagrees with you about anything is a "Jew hater." This from a snowflake who used to whine about "name-calling" constantly. You also happen to be easily swayed by misinformation, which is annoying.
I'm not "torn" by anything. What I am is amused by the Scoopers who claim others are anti-Semitic even as they blindly support the raging anti-Semites who are tearing America apart.
This thread calmed down considerably when the mods told you to take some time off for your very personal ad hominem attacks against multiple Scoopers.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 22, 2023, 08:10:55 AM
Yet you claimed that they haven't gotten along for 2,000 years. Weird.
Anyway, ALL of the countries in that part of the world were "invented" about 100 years ago in the wake of the Ottoman Empire's collapse after WW1. Mostly by western powers drawing lines on a map. But that doesn't mean that there weren't actually people living there who were largely Islamic Arabs.
Not to mention that Israel itself is more of an invented country than any other! It came together mostly because the western powers bought into the idea that it would be nice to give Jews their homeland back, despite the fact that 99% of them hadn't lived there for centuries.
EDIT: And none of this matters! Israel is widely recognized as a state, as is Palestine. Israel has negotiated agreements with groups that they agree represent the Palestinian people. (Agreements they have violated BTW.)
So your desire to completely de-legitimize Palestine is really hollow and not very accurate.
What is your point? That this is not a war for the existence of a race of people? That "everything will be just fine" if only Isreal would calm down?
And yes, I am de-legitimizing Palestinians. Until Palestinian leaders and/or protests in Arab countries come forcibly again on October 7, stop issuing documents to Inmans to call for the death of all Jews in Paryer services, and stop calling for the genocide of a race e of people ("from the river to the sea"), they do not deserve any legitimacy.
One more thing, "Leader of Muslins" (the definition of Sultan), if there was a handle called "The Grand Wizard of Semantics" and it was defending the Minneapolis Police in the summer of 2020, or the Christmas massacre in Waukesha, what would have been the reaction to it?
Why should the reaction to you,in this thread, with your positions, be any different?
Yesterday in NYC
Thousands of protesters demanding eradication of Israel clash with NYPDhttps://nypost.com/2023/10/21/thousands-of-nyc-protesters-demand-eradication-of-israel/
Thousands of anti-Israel protesters clashed with police Saturday night after they refused to vacate the Bay Ridge street they had flooded for hours.
The "Flood Brooklyn for Palestine" demonstration devolved into chaos as night fell, with protesters completely shutting down traffic, screaming at police and lighting small fires in the middle of the roadways.
The overwhelming demonstration kicked off hours earlier in one of the largest Arab and Middle Eastern communities in New York City
"We are calling for full liberation of all of Palestine . . . to every single inch, from river to the sea," shouted one protester, repeating a refrain used by Hamas terrorists and their anti-Israel backers.
"We are not like other groups simply calling for a cease-fire," added the woman, wearing a T-shirt of one of the event's organizers, the radical leftist group Within Our Lifetime.
"Say it loud, say it clear, we don't want no Zionists here!" protesters cheered while beating on drums and waving Palestinian flags.
"We will free Palestine within our lifetime!" the crowd cried, holding signs reading, "Zionism is genocide" and "Resistance is justified when people are occupied."
"Please keep the world clean!" the sign read.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:14:02 AM
Are you claiming this is not true? (Hint: the anti-semantic Western press does not want to report this).
https://www2.cbn.com/news/world/palestinian-authority-issues-call-murder-jews-tells-islamic-leaders-incite-violence
CBN News has reviewed the document written in Arabic and the translation is accurate.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F84Dwc7WYAAZHp3?format=png&name=900x900)
https://twitter.com/GadiTaub1/status/1715312782848000114
---
I wrote this in the same post, and you gave everyone a real-time example of how it works. For this, I owe you a giant thank you.
----
Palestinians, or all their leaders, tell you to your face what they want— the end of Isreal and the death of all the Jews.
Why do they speak like this? Why do they celebrate the slaughter of 1,500 Israelis?
They know that the West is full of conceited progressives (like this board). When they read documents like the one above or see the slaughter the Palestinians committed. It "does not compute" in their brain.
The Palestinians know Western progressives will conclude that "this must be wrong or taken out of context" or use the code words of ignorance (it is "complicated" or "nuanced") or disassemble the situation (it is Hamas, not Palsteinsians because they need them to be different).
Why? This document or the attack is not how progressives act/believe. Western progressives have the conceit that they genuinely think everyone worldwide, from every/any culture, agrees with them because why wouldn't everyone hold a Western progressive view?
Sickening document. Heisy, if Hezbollah attacks from the north what do you think the IDF will do? Can Israel defend herself and those 100K tactile missiles with another front from the South and potentially Syria getting involved? As you know I would have preemptively done a bunch of things as far as Hezbollah is concerned. Can we play a role in fortifying their Iron Dome?
'm not gonna give BIden much credit for saying the right things, it's about action. It's also worth nothing that we and Israel we clearly unprepared. I recall what Sullivan said less than a month ago. We're also barely even talking about the hostages, 12 of which are American. I would not have a reactionary position right now if I was the United States. Just sayin. As for the vitriol towards Israel and the Jewish people? Don't expect that to improve anytime soon. Israel will do what must be done.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 10:44:49 AM
Sickening document. Heisy, if Hezbollah attacks from the north what do you think the IDF will do? Can Israel defend herself and those 100K tactile missiles with another front from the South and potentially Syria getting involved? As you know I would have preemptively done a bunch of things as far as Hezbollah is concerned. Can we play a role in fortifying their Iron Dome?
'm not gonna give BIden much credit for saving the right things, it's about action. It's also worth nothing that we and Israel we clearly unprepared. I recall what Sullivan said less than a month ago. We're also barely even talking about the hostages, 12 of which are American. I would not have a reactionary position right now if I was the United States. Just sayin. As for the vitriol towards Israel and the Jewish people? Don't expect that to improve anytime soon. Israel will do what must be done.
Biden and America has been supporting Israel for decades financially and with arms. We're not sending troops and if that's the action you want, maybe tell your folks in congress to quit fighting culture wars and amongst themselves, aina?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:41:19 AM
What is your point? That this is not a war for the existence of a race of people? That "everything will be just fine" if only Isreal would calm down?
And yes, I am de-legitimizing Palestinians. Until Palestinian leaders and/or protests in Arab countries come forcibly again on October 7, stop issuing documents to Inmans to call for the death of all Jews in Paryer services, and stop calling for the genocide of a race e of people ("from the river to the sea"), they do not deserve any legitimacy.
One more thing, "Leader of Muslins" (the definition of Sultan), if there was a handle called "The Grand Wizard of Semantics" and it was defending the Minneapolis Police in the summer of 2020, or the Christmas massacre in Waukesha, what would have been the reaction to it?
Why should the reaction to you,in this thread, with your positions, be any different?
Yesterday in NYC
Thousands of protesters demanding eradication of Israel clash with NYPD
https://nypost.com/2023/10/21/thousands-of-nyc-protesters-demand-eradication-of-israel/
Thousands of anti-Israel protesters clashed with police Saturday night after they refused to vacate the Bay Ridge street they had flooded for hours.
The "Flood Brooklyn for Palestine" demonstration devolved into chaos as night fell, with protesters completely shutting down traffic, screaming at police and lighting small fires in the middle of the roadways.
The overwhelming demonstration kicked off hours earlier in one of the largest Arab and Middle Eastern communities in New York City
"We are calling for full liberation of all of Palestine . . . to every single inch, from river to the sea," shouted one protester, repeating a refrain used by Hamas terrorists and their anti-Israel backers.
"We are not like other groups simply calling for a cease-fire," added the woman, wearing a T-shirt of one of the event's organizers, the radical leftist group Within Our Lifetime.
"Say it loud, say it clear, we don't want no Zionists here!" protesters cheered while beating on drums and waving Palestinian flags.
"We will free Palestine within our lifetime!" the crowd cried, holding signs reading, "Zionism is genocide" and "Resistance is justified when people are occupied."
"Please keep the world clean!" the sign read.
Fluffy may still think Jews are occupying Gaza? I dunno. Why is it that middle eastern/muslim communities all over the Western World have a 0.0 desire to move to any country in the Middle East?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 10:44:49 AM
Sickening document. Heisy, if Hezbollah attacks from the north what do you think the IDF will do? Can Israel defend herself and those 100K tactile missiles with another front from the South and potentially Syria getting involved? As you know I would have preemptively done a bunch of things as far as Hezbollah is concerned. Can we play a role in fortifying their Iron Dome?
'm not gonna give BIden much credit for saying the right things, it's about action. It's also worth nothing that we and Israel we clearly unprepared. I recall what Sullivan said less than a month ago. We're also barely even talking about the hostages, 12 of which are American. I would not have a reactionary position right now if I was the United States. Just sayin. As for the vitriol towards Israel and the Jewish people? Don't expect that to improve anytime soon. Israel will do what must be done.
If Israel is bombarded from the North by Hezbollah, the US will 100% blow them to high hell.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2023, 10:46:43 AM
Biden and America has been supporting Israel for decades financially and with arms. We're not sending troops and if that's the action you want, maybe tell your folks in congress to quit fighting culture wars and amongst themselves, aina?
They're supporting Hamas via Iran as well. It's good we sent the carriers but Israel may need help if this becomes a 2 or 3 front war.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 10:49:24 AM
If Israel is bombarded from the North by Hezbollah, the US will 100% blow them to high hell.
Ya tbink??
Quote from: MU82 on October 22, 2023, 10:35:50 AM
Look in the mirror, pal. You have made at least a dozen truly unhinged posts in this thread, including your Joseph McCarthy schtick of saying that everyone who disagrees with you about anything is a "Jew hater." This from a snowflake who used to whine about "name-calling" constantly. You also happen to be easily swayed by misinformation, which is annoying.
I'm not "torn" by anything. What I am is amused by the Scoopers who claim others are anti-Semitic even as they blindly support the raging anti-Semites who are tearing America apart.
This thread calmed down considerably when the mods told you to take some time off for your very personal ad hominem attacks against multiple Scoopers.
Fifty-eight pages, and I am most vocal of maybe 2 or 3 people against the secular Western progressive view here. And yes, for that, I was banned for a week.
And if the mods want to make another intensely political decision and ban only my point of view, not some of the genuinely hateful views here ... it is their board.
Do you want to see my texts/DMs from lurkers and non-posters and how upset they are by the view on this board and in this thread? Are they legitimately afraid of speaking up out of fear of being Doxxed?
Do you think there are no Jewish fans of MU basketball who read what some posters say here and are not upset?
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:51:45 AM
Fifty-eight pages, and I am most vocal of maybe 2 or 3 people against the secular Western progressive view here. And yes, for that, I was banned for a week.
And if the mods want to make another intensely political decision and ban only my point of view, not some of the genuinely hateful views here ... it is their board.
Do you want to see my texts/DMs from lurkers and non-posters and how upset they are by the view on this board and in this thread? Are they legitimately afraid of speaking up out of fear of being Doxxed?
Do you think there are no Jewish fans of MU basketball who read what some posters say here and are not upset?
Keefe is the one that doxxes people.
Anyway, irony is dead
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 10:51:39 AM
Ya tbink??
Yes. If Hezbollah launches anything close to what it is capable of, the US carriers will pound them.
I have zero doubt. Israel is an ally of the US, and the US isn't about to let a full scale assault happen from the North.
I also think that Hezbollah knows this, and won't get involved.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:51:45 AM
Fifty-eight pages, and I am most vocal of maybe 2 or 3 people against the secular Western progressive view here. And yes, for that, I was banned for a week.
And if the mods want to make another intensely political decision and ban only my point of view, not some of the genuinely hateful views here ... it is their board.
Do you want to see my texts/DMs from lurkers and non-posters and how upset they are by the view on this board and in this thread? Are they legitimately afraid of speaking up out of fear of being Doxxed?
Do you think there are no Jewish fans of MU basketball who read what some posters say here and are not upset?
You weren't banned for espousing your views, but you know that. You were banned (likely) for calling people who didn't agree with you, "Jew Haters".
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 10:56:39 AM
You weren't banned for espousing your views, but you know that. You were banned (likely) for calling people who didn't agree with you, "Jew Haters".
I wrote this
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575613#msg1575613
The conceit that most of the pro-Palestinian crowd here has (Galway, Hards. 21jump, Jockey, Brew, etc) starts with the assumption that everyone thinks like them. They think everyone wants the same things they do.
They do not.
Palestinians want one thing: the slaughter and elimination of all Jews.Lawdog responded
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575623#msg1575623
Ban this guy. This is such a horesh!t statement.
Brew also chimed in
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575649#msg1575649
This is all bigoted hateful nonsense. You don't have a goddamn clue what you are talking about. This is probably the most racist thing I've ever seen on this site, and that's saying something.
---
Right after this, I was banned for a week.
I'll let you figure out the motivation.
ADDED
In the ten days since this happened, how many "gas the Jews" and "river to the sea" chants has the world seen to make one think this is an entirely off-base statement?
Where are the Arab and Palestinian condemnation of October 7 and these statements in the last ten days?
I don't need your 'help'.
Quote from: MU82 on October 22, 2023, 08:37:59 AM
Thank goodness we have a president with empathy, one who is staunchly on Israel's side while appreciating the worldwide implications of war, one who doesn't make this all about himself, one who values American Jews as well as Israeli Jews, one who doesn't call Jew-hating white nationalists "very fine people," one who doesn't hold Ms. Jewish Space Laser in high regard, one who doesn't tell Jew-haters to "stand by" and wait for his orders, one who doesn't surround himself with Jew-haters, one who wants the best outcomes for as many people as possible, and one who doesn't repeatedly threaten to use nuclear weapons as if they're his personal toys.
My brother and SIL, who did not care for Obama and who did appreciate a couple of the pro-Israel moves that his successor made, mostly like Biden's response to this situation. But hey, they're not nearly as close to what's going on in Israel as a dentist from Mequon is.
Look at what people actually do, not what they say. Empathy, you state? The Buffoon has empathy for anyone who lines his pockets with greenbacks and, of course, the liberal media will run cover for him, hey?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 10:24:54 AM
You're right, I will stop arguing with you.
Just keep encouraging Heisy. It's starting to seem you're a bit obsessed.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 10:54:43 AM
Yes. If Hezbollah launches anything close to what it is capable of, the US carriers will pound them.
I have zero doubt. Israel is an ally of the US, and the US isn't about to let a full scale assault happen from the North.
I also think that Hezbollah knows this, and won't get involved.
Hezbollah has been "escalating" according to the IDF
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1715936575714963933?s=20
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2023, 11:30:53 AM
Look at what people actually do, not what they say. Empathy, you state? The Buffoon has empathy for anyone who lines his pockets with greenbacks and, of course, the liberal media will run cover for him, hey?
Irony is dead part 2
Quote from: Jockey on October 22, 2023, 11:32:15 AM
Just keep encouraging Heisy. It's starting to seem you're a bit obsessed.
You do lack self awareness, don't you?
While he was on his break I still posted in this thread, did I not? It is a topic that interests me. I should stop because you think I'm obsessed with him? That's some pretty solid logic.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:41:19 AM
What is your point? That this is not a war for the existence of a race of people? That "everything will be just fine" if only Isreal would calm down?
No this isn't a "war for the existance of a race of people." That's hyperbolic nonsense. I also never said that Israel should "calm down." That's just silly. Of course they need to severely weaken Hamas in response.
What I am saying is that if Israel truly wants peace long-term, it has to treat Palestinians with more respect than they have shown. Don't violate agreements that you have made.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:41:19 AM
And yes, I am de-legitimizing Palestinians.
And this is why you aren't a serious person.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 22, 2023, 11:32:57 AM
Hezbollah has been "escalating" according to the IDF
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1715936575714963933?s=20
Okay, but that isn't the same as what I said. I said if they launch what they're capable of then the US would assist.
Hezbollah has something like 150k missiles, including precision guided ones, and thousands of troops.
A couple of anti tank rockets, etc... Israel can deal with that on their own. They have been for years. The response from Israel in the North has been very measured and careful to prevent civilian loss of life. I only hope that they can do the same in Gaza.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 22, 2023, 11:49:37 AM
No this isn't a "war for the existence of a race of people." That's hyperbolic nonsense.
You could have stopped here. That is all everyone needs to know about your position.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 11:55:50 AM
You could have stopped here. That is all everyone needs to know about your position.
LOL. It's a war to retaliate for a previous attack against the Israeli state, and to prevent further attacks in the future. All of which is legitimate and fine. You are engaging in the same hyperbolic nonsense you normally do. The Jews aren't about to be eliminated as a race of people. Most Jews don't even live in Israel.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 22, 2023, 11:59:44 AM
LOL. It's a war to retaliate for a previous attack against the Israeli state, and to prevent further attacks in the future. All of which is legitimate and fine.
You seem to be dismissing it as a sort of police action, not unlike what a big city police department would do to curtail gang activity.
But this is your MO ... "Everything is fine." Progressive ideology believes it can burn every institution to the ground and genuinely think nothing will come of it. This is why they engage in such destructive behavior.
---
Do you realize how your attitude can be read by Jewish people here? Surely you are smart enough to see even this?
Let's contrast the "Leader of Muslims" position with President Biden's statement.
https://sv.usembassy.gov/president-bidens-statement-during-his-visit-to-tel-aviv/
Hamas committed atrocities that recall the worst ravages of ISIS, unleashing pure unadulterated evil upon the world.
There is no rationalizing it, no excusing it. Period.
October 7th, which was a sacred to — a sacred Jewish holiday, became the deadliest day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust. It has brought to the surface painful memories and scars left by a millennia of antisemitism and the genocide of the Jewish people.
The world watched then, it knew, and the world did nothing. We will not stand by and do nothing again. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.
The State of Israel was born to be a safe place for the Jewish people of the world. That's why it was born. I have long said: If Israel didn't exist, we would have to invent it.
And while it may not feel that way today, Israel must again be a safe place for the Jewish people. And I promise you: We're going to do everything in our power to make sure that it will be.
AND UK PM Rishi Sunakhttps://www.politico.eu/article/rishi-sunak-uk-to-visit-israel-amidst-increasing-conflict/
"I'm proud to stand with you in Israel's darkest hour as your friend, we will stand with you in solidarity, we will stand with your people,
and we want you to win."---
Does this sound like someone who thinks, "They did something, so we do something back, get the bad guys that caused this, and only this, and then it is over?"
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 22, 2023, 11:59:44 AM
The Jews aren't about to be eliminated as a race of people. Most Jews don't even live in Israel.
How do you know they will not be eliminated because they have a military that will prevent it? If so, does that make constant rocket barrages and endless attacks okay, as they can repeal them? Is it ok to attack 6' 5" athletic men because they look able to repel it? This is the equivalence you seem to be drawing.
Or all the "gas the Jews" and "River to sea chants" worldwide are really a bunch of nothing? Everyone is overreaching. "Everything will be fine."
Yesterday, I walked my dog by the Synagogue in my neighborhood. They had a police presence and visible armed guards in front of it.
Is this another "LOL overreaction?" ... Leader of Muslims?
---
Finally ... you wrote.
Most Jews don't even live in Israel.Why did you mention this? It sounds like there are acceptable amounts of Jewish losses, so long as it is less than 50% of the population.
I know you did not mean it this way ... it's part of your inflammatory remarks repeatedly made here, and seem to be incapable of understanding ... primarily driven by a Western Progressive ideology that assumes everyone thinks like you (because it is the correct way to think!) and understand what you meant, as that is the only interpretation.
So ... I'll let you have a do-over here. Why did you feel it necessary to write this?ADDED
Remember, upset and scared Jewish MU basketball fans here read this thread and contacted me.
Address them, not me.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 01:35:54 PM
How do you know they will not be eliminated because they have a military that will prevent it? If so, does that make constant rocket barrages and endless attacks okay, as they can repeal them? Is it ok to attack 6' 5" athletic men because they look able to repel it? This is the equivalence you seem to be drawing.
Or all the "gas the Jews" and "River to sea chants" worldwide are really a bunch of nothing? Everyone is overreaching. "Everything will be fine."
Yesterday, I walked my dog by the Synagogue in my neighborhood. They had a police presence and visible armed guards in front of it.
Is this another "LOL overreaction?" ... Leader of Muslims?
---
Finally ... you wrote.
Most Jews don't even live in Israel.
"
Why did you mention this? It sounds like there are acceptable amounts of Jewish losses, so long as it is less than 50% of the population.
I know you did not mean it this way ... it's part of your inflammatory remarks make here, and seem to be incapable of understanding ... primarily driven by a Western Progressive ideology that assumes everyone thinks like you (because it is the correct way to think!) and understand what you meant, as that is the only interpretation.
So ... I'll let you have a do-over here. Why did you feel it necessary to write this?
I'm very sorry for all of these troubles Heisenberg. That Detroit story was beyond awful. If I'm not mistaken almost 1/2 of the Jews in the World live in Israel. Fluffy's comment was quite insensitive. I hope he apologizes. Take care man.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 01:35:54 PM
How do you know they will not be eliminated because they have a military that will prevent it? If so, does that make constant rocket barrages and endless attacks okay, as they can repeal them? Is it ok to attack 6' 5" athletic men because they look able to repel it? This is the equivalence you seem to be drawing.
Or all the "gas the Jews" and "River to sea chants" worldwide are really a bunch of nothing? Everyone is overreaching. "Everything will be fine."
Yesterday, I walked my dog by the Synagogue in my neighborhood. They had a police presence and visible armed guards in front of it.
Is this another "LOL overreaction?" ... Leader of Muslims?
---
Finally ... you wrote.
Most Jews don't even live in Israel.
Why did you mention this? It sounds like there are acceptable amounts of Jewish losses, so long as it is less than 50% of the population.
I know you did not mean it this way ... it's part of your inflammatory remarks repeatedly made here, and seem to be incapable of understanding ... primarily driven by a Western Progressive ideology that assumes everyone thinks like you (because it is the correct way to think!) and understand what you meant, as that is the only interpretation.
So ... I'll let you have a do-over here. Why did you feel it necessary to write this?
ADDED
Remember, upset and scared Jewish MU basketball fans here read this thread and contacted me.
Address them, not me.
Any Jewish Marquette fans afraid to post here, please join the discussion and share your thoughts. There isn't any reason to be afraid to post here unless you offend Keefe who may dox you.
We'd all love to have you post here. It's far better you speak for yourselves than have Heisey speak for you
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 01:46:09 PM
I'm very sorry for all of these troubles Heisenberg. That Detroit story was beyond awful. If I'm not mistaken almost 1/2 of the Jews in the World live in Israel. Fluffy's comment was quite insensitive. I hope he apologizes. Take care man.
Threats are on the rise against Jewish and Muslim alike. America is very racist.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/world/middleeast/threats-jewish-muslim-americans-israel-attack.html
Wow. I didn't realize outside of the USA and Israel there are less than 2 million Jews across the world. I think people need to keep this in mind. The worldwide pure hatred, especially in light of their history, is incredibly disturbing. I honestly don't really get it.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2023, 01:52:05 PM
Threats are on the rise against Jewish and Muslim alike. America is very racist.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/world/middleeast/threats-jewish-muslim-americans-israel-attack.html
Neither are a race although Jews identify as a race.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 01:46:09 PM
I'm very sorry for all of these troubles Heisenberg. That Detroit story was beyond awful. If I'm not mistaken almost 1/2 of the Jews in the World live in Israel. Fluffy's comment was quite insensitive. I hope he apologizes. Take care man.
A 6-year-old Palestinian boy in Plainfield, Illinois, is stabbed to death, which is worldwide news. They caught the guy, and I wish Illinois had the death penalty for him.
Meanwhile ... let's all look past this story from yesterday because it does not fit the progressive worldview.
Police seek motive for fatal stabbing of Detroit synagogue president outside her homehttps://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/police-seek-motive-for-fatal-stabbing-of-detroit-synagogue-president-outside-her-home
A Detroit synagogue president was found stabbed to death outside her home Saturday, police said. The motive wasn't known.
Emergency medical personnel declared the woman, identified in a statement from Mayor Mike Duggan as Samantha Woll, dead at the scene, Cpl. Dan Donakowski said.
"While at the scene, police officers observed a trail of blood leading officers to the victim's residence, which is where the crime is believed to have occurred," Donakowski said.
Woll, 40, had led the Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue since 2022 and was a former aide to Democratic Rep. Elissa Slotkin and campaign staffer for Attorney General Dana Nessel, the Detroit Free Press reported.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 01:55:37 PM
A 6-year-old Palestinian boy in Plainfield, Illinois, is stabbed to death, which is worldwide news. They caught the guy, and I wish Illinois had the death penalty for him.
Meanwhile ... let's all look past this story from yesterday because it does not fit the progressive worldview.
Police seek motive for fatal stabbing of Detroit synagogue president outside her home
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/police-seek-motive-for-fatal-stabbing-of-detroit-synagogue-president-outside-her-home
A Detroit synagogue president was found stabbed to death outside her home Saturday, police said. The motive wasn't known.
Emergency medical personnel declared the woman, identified in a statement from Mayor Mike Duggan as Samantha Woll, dead at the scene, Cpl. Dan Donakowski said.
"While at the scene, police officers observed a trail of blood leading officers to the victim's residence, which is where the crime is believed to have occurred," Donakowski said.
Woll, 40, had led the Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue since 2022 and was a former aide to Democratic Rep. Elissa Slotkin and campaign staffer for Attorney General Dana Nessel, the Detroit Free Press reported.
Did you just link a story from PBS' national news desk and then say it isn't national news? :o
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 01:55:32 PM
Neither are a race although Jews identify as a race.
That's splitting hairs. Racism permeates this country
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2023, 01:49:45 PM
It's far better you speak for yourselves than have Heisey speak for you
I only speak for myself.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 01:58:49 PM
I only speak for myself.
While you specifically tells us what others not posting here think.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 01:57:20 PM
Did you just link a story from PBS' national news desk and then say it isn't national news? :o
I believe I said worldwide ... look again.
The 6-year boy news was so big; this happened 6 days ago in Belgium.
----
https://nypost.com/2023/10/16/2-shot-dead-in-brussels-in-possible-isis-retaliation-attack-for-murdered-6-year-old-illinois-boy/
Two Swedes were shot dead in Brussels Monday during a possible ISIS terror attack in retaliation for a 6-year-old Muslim boy who was killed in Illinois over the weekend.
The double murder was reportedly revenge after a Chicago-area landlord allegedly stabbed and killed a 6-year-old boy and seriously wounded his mother on Saturday, purportedly because the tenants are Muslim.
"This person claims to be inspired by Islamic State," Van Duyse added. "The Swedish nationality of the victims was put forward as the probable motive."
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2023, 02:01:14 PM
While you specifically tells us what others not posting here think.
''
because they told me
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
''
because they told me
"She goes to another school, you wouldn't know her."
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2023, 01:57:35 PM
That's splitting hairs. Racism permeates this country
I don't get the point of your comment. I wouldn't say racism is worse in America than the vast majority of countries in the world. And as far as splitting hairs? Perhaps when it comes to Jews/Judaism but Islam/Muslims is not a race. We're talking about close to 1.5 billion people, the largest populations being in Indonesia and India.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 22, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
"She goes to another school, you wouldn't know her."
They're related to Manti Te'o
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 02:03:56 PM
I believe I said worldwide ... look again.
The 6-year boy news was so big; this happened 6 days ago in Belgium.
----
https://nypost.com/2023/10/16/2-shot-dead-in-brussels-in-possible-isis-retaliation-attack-for-murdered-6-year-old-illinois-boy/
Two Swedes were shot dead in Brussels Monday during a possible ISIS terror attack in retaliation for a 6-year-old Muslim boy who was killed in Illinois over the weekend.
The double murder was reportedly revenge after a Chicago-area landlord allegedly stabbed and killed a 6-year-old boy and seriously wounded his mother on Saturday, purportedly because the tenants are Muslim.
"This person claims to be inspired by Islamic State," Van Duyse added. "The Swedish nationality of the victims was put forward as the probable motive."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/22/us-synagogue-president-murdered-as-police-warns-against-speculating-motive
You're a clown.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 02:06:19 PM
I don't get the point of your comment. I wouldn't say racism is worse in America than the vast majority of countries in the world. And as far as splitting hairs? Perhaps when it comes to Jews/Judaism but Islam/Muslims is not a race. We're talking about close to 1.5 billion people, the largest populations being in Indonesia and India.
Fine, anti-semitism and Islamophobia isn't racism, it's something else.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2023, 02:08:26 PM
Fine, anti-semitism and Islamophobia isn't racism, it's something else.
Islamophobia is not remotely related or as big of a problem as antisemitism here and across the world. There are close to a billion Muslims in SE Asia. Are Indonesians Pakistanis, Indian populations, and Bangleshis being targeted across the world by Western countries? By Buddhists? Christians? Jews?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 02:15:12 PM
Islamophobia is not remotely related or as big of a problem as antisemitism here and across the world. There are close to a billion Muslims in SE Asia. Are Indonesians Pakistanis, Indian populations, and Bangleshis being targeted across the world by Western countries? By Buddhists? Christians? Jews?
Very interesting
CNN reports that IDF commanders have warned they are going into Gaza City and will treat anyone still there as an enemy combatant. They will do their best to prevent civilian deaths, but they will not let the presence of civilians stop them.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-22-23/index.html
And this
Update(1515ET): Hamas has claimed to have repelled a brief Israeli ground incursion, in what marks the first such reported direct ground fight between two sides in Gaza. The Al-Qassam Brigades announced its fighters destroyed two Israeli military bulldozers and a tank as part of an ambush amid the IDF's conducting 'limited' incursions into the strip.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:51:45 AM
Fifty-eight pages, and I am most vocal of maybe 2 or 3 people against the secular Western progressive view here. And yes, for that, I was banned for a week.
And if the mods want to make another intensely political decision and ban only my point of view, not some of the genuinely hateful views here ... it is their board.
Do you want to see my texts/DMs from lurkers and non-posters and how upset they are by the view on this board and in this thread? Are they legitimately afraid of speaking up out of fear of being Doxxed?
Do you think there are no Jewish fans of MU basketball who read what some posters say here and are not upset?
I'm a "Jewish fan of MU basketball who reads what some posters say here" -- including some of your unhinged views, distortions, and very personal attacks. And yes, some of the excellent points you make, too.
I take it all in, I recognize how complex this situation is, and I don't identify those who disagree with me as "Jew haters."
But you do you.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 01:55:37 PM
A 6-year-old Palestinian boy in Plainfield, Illinois, is stabbed to death, which is worldwide news. They caught the guy, and I wish Illinois had the death penalty for him.
Meanwhile ... let's all look past this story from yesterday because it does not fit the progressive worldview.
Police seek motive for fatal stabbing of Detroit synagogue president outside her home
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/police-seek-motive-for-fatal-stabbing-of-detroit-synagogue-president-outside-her-home
A Detroit synagogue president was found stabbed to death outside her home Saturday, police said. The motive wasn't known.
Emergency medical personnel declared the woman, identified in a statement from Mayor Mike Duggan as Samantha Woll, dead at the scene, Cpl. Dan Donakowski said.
"While at the scene, police officers observed a trail of blood leading officers to the victim's residence, which is where the crime is believed to have occurred," Donakowski said.
Woll, 40, had led the Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue since 2022 and was a former aide to Democratic Rep. Elissa Slotkin and campaign staffer for Attorney General Dana Nessel, the Detroit Free Press reported.
Police Chief James White said Sunday the investigation into the death of a Detroit synagogue leader Saturday is ongoing, but there is no evidence it was "motivated by antisemitism."
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2023/10/22/detroit-police-chief-no-evidence-synagogue-leaders-death-motivated-by-antisemitism/71283432007/
I appreciate the authorities exhorting the public to not jump to conclusions. If only....
Dror is a friend of mine. This tweet reminds me of this thread.
(bold is my emphasis)
https://x.com/drorpoleg/status/1716198873905934363?s=20
@drorpoleg
13 years ago, I was a student in London. One weekend, I went to a party organized by some students from the University of London's SOAS.
A blond girl approached me and asked where I was from.
Israel, I said.
"Oh, that's so interesting. The history of that region is fascinating. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions?"
Sure.
"Don't you think the idea of nation-states is a social construct of the 19th Century?" she asked.
Yes, I replied, to a large extent.
"So don't you think Israel shouldn't exist?"
I asked her where she was from. She said Latvia.
Latvia, for those not familiar, is a literal "social construct" that was established in 1918 and never existed before. During WW2, Many Latvians collaborated with their Nazi invaders and volunteered to help exterminate more than 70,000 Latvian Jews.
I couldn't help but think about that encounter this week, watching all the useful idiots in prestigious universities who have strong views, but very little knowledge or self-awareness.
So many antisemites don't even realize they're antisemites. They are only "curious" and "want to ask questions."
Somehow, these questions are always pointed only in one direction.
"Nation states are a social construct," so yeah, "Israel shouldn't exist." All other countries can stay.
Pictured: Memorial of the Rumbula Massacre outside, Riga, Latvia, where Nazis soldiers and their Latvian collaborators killed 25,000 Jews. Photo by Paul Bauman
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 06:24:35 PM
Dror is a friend of mine. This tweet reminds me of this thread.
Nobody has suggested anything of the sort in this thread. Literally not one person has written that Israel has no right to exist.
As usual, you are incapable of having a good faith discussion about what people actually write, so instead you invent things to argue against.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 22, 2023, 07:00:21 PM
Nobody has suggested anything of the sort in this thread. Literally not one person has written that Israel has no right to exist.
As usual, you are incapable of having a good faith discussion about what people actually write, so instead you invent things to argue against.
He regularly builds strawmen and shifts goalposts here on Scoop, but the effort with which he's done both in this topic has been quite remarkable.
When you've been absent from this thread for a few days...
(https://duet-cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/0x0:900x500/1080x720/filters:focal(450x250:451x251):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6438793/this-is-fine.jpg)
I think my favorite part of this whole discourse is the idea that Sultan used as a snarky screename automatically aligns him as a Muslim fanatic, leader, and apologist. Someone tell TallTitan that he's actually a violent pre-Olympian god
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
''
because they told me
Remove their names and post screenshots. Otherwise we can all assume you're making s*** up again
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 22, 2023, 02:15:12 PM
Islamophobia is not remotely related or as big of a problem as antisemitism here and across the world. There are close to a billion Muslims in SE Asia. Are Indonesians Pakistanis, Indian populations, and Bangleshis being targeted across the world by Western countries? By Buddhists? Christians? Jews?
I mean, the Rohingya genocide, the Cham genocide in Cambodia, the Uyghur genocide in china, Bosnia in the 90s. All examples of major muslim genocide/ethnic cleansing within the last 50 years, some even ongoing.
I'd say prejudice and racism is a problem across the world. And our country is very much included in that.
Not remotely related? May as well side with H20 and admit they're lesser human beings
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 22, 2023, 08:32:22 PM
I mean, the Rohingya genocide, the Cham genocide in Cambodia, the Uyghur genocide in china, Bosnia in the 90s. All examples of major muslim genocide/ethnic cleansing within the last 50 years, some even ongoing.
I'd say prejudice and racism is a problem across the world. And our country is very much included in that.
Not remotely related? May as well side with H20 and admit they're lesser human beings
I wasn't comparing genocides, the discussion was about antisemitism and Islamophobia in America. As far as the Cham, the Kymer Rouge killed everyone. You're correct about the Bosnian Muslims in the 90's and the Uyghur situation has been horrible for a long time. That said ethic cleansing like in Bosnia and the PRC treatment of Uygurs isn't really comparable to ubiquitous antisemitism. Remember the Holocaust wasn't about ethic cleansing, it was about murdering every Jew on the face of the earth. And the vitriol towards Israel and also Jews today really isn't about this tiny speck of land. You also do not see "protests" all over the world and hear things like gas the Muslims. I don't think there's really a comparison.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 22, 2023, 08:19:42 PM
Remove their names and post screenshots. Otherwise, we can all assume you're making s*** up again
Do you think Jewish supporters of Israel who are scared and upset with all the "river to the sea" and "gas the Jews" protests come here and see
The moral equivalency
On-campus protests this past week of hateful anti-Semitic words, which get defended under the First Amendment, we all know similar hate said by anti-LGBTQ+, right-to-life, and racist groups would NEVER be tolerated like this.
The contention that the UN said Palestine is a country in the same place as Isreal
The contention is not a fight for the survival of Israel
The doubts that Imans have been told by the Palestinian Authority to call for the murder of Jews this weekend
The focus was on Israel more than the Palestinians
The initial accusation was that Isreal was lying about the hospital bombing
The contention is that Isreal is an apartheid state
The contention that Isreal committed war crimes
The indictment that Isreal violated international law
The fear they are going to commit genocide on the Palestinians
The charge Isreal does not do enough to protest Palestinian civilians, without regard to what the Palestinians did to 1,500 dead Jews and 210 hostages first
The accusation of treating the Palestinians as "sub-human" but not once saying the Palestinians treat the Jews as "sub-human." (except by me, and when I do, I get banned for a week.)
I could go on, but I did not make up this s***. You, and many others in this thread, set the tone of the discussion here, and it never occurred to you how the actual victims of October 7 would view it.
So how about you tell the Jews that suffered a family loss in Isreal, have to go to Synagogue with armed guards in front, turn on the TV to see "gas the Jews" and "from the river to the sea" (including hate speech on MU's campus this week) should feel about these 60 pages?
How about you tell them why we are an inclusive community for them and how these 60 pages show that?
----
So, I'll answer your subsequent response now. I am not stooping to your demand for "pictures," and I do not give a f**k what you think of me.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 11:36:17 PM
On-campus protests this past week of hateful anti-Semitic words, which get defended under the First Amendment, we all know similar hate said by anti-LGBTQ+, right-to-life, and racist groups would NEVER be tolerated like this.
I asked you for examples on this point. You gave two and it turned out that the courts had ruled that the university was correct in both cases. Would you like to try again? Examples do exist of universities punishing people for free speech. Most of them are from conservative religious universities punishing more progressive free speech (usually because they are within their rights to due to having a little more leeway [or a lot more leeway depending on the institution] due to their religious missions). But there have been a handful of isolated incidents were a liberal university was smacked for attempting to punish conservative free speech, but they are few and far between.
I think you underestimate how much "similar hate by anti-LGBTQ+, right-to-life, and racist groups" gets reported to universities on a daily basis and how the vast majority of that gets dismissed due to it being protected free speech.
It's concerning to me Heisey that you started a thread in the last month criticizing universities for not being more encouraging of free speech and you have so quickly abandoned your principles. I think it was you who said earlier in this thread that we fight to protect terrible speech because non-terrible speech doesn't need protecting. There's truth to that statement. We have seen a lot of terrible speech since October 7. Use your free speech to call out, criticize, lambast, to your heart's content. But don't call on government to punish people for simply using their constitutional rights.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 23, 2023, 12:27:25 AM
I asked you for examples on this point. You gave two and it turned out that the courts had ruled that the university was correct in both cases. Would you like to try again? Examples do exist of universities punishing people for free speech. Most of them are from conservative religious universities punishing more progressive free speech (usually because they are within their rights to due to having a little more leeway [or a lot more leeway depending on the institution] due to their religious missions). But there have been a handful of isolated incidents were a liberal university was smacked for attempting to punish conservative free speech, but they are few and far between.
I think you underestimate how much "similar hate by anti-LGBTQ+, right-to-life, and racist groups" gets reported to universities on a daily basis and how the vast majority of that gets dismissed due to it being protected free speech.
It's concerning to me Heisey that you started a thread in the last month criticizing universities for not being more encouraging of free speech and you have so quickly abandoned your principles. I think it was you who said earlier in this thread that we fight to protect terrible speech because non-terrible speech doesn't need protecting. There's truth to that statement. We have seen a lot of terrible speech since October 7. Use your free speech to call out, criticize, lambast, to your heart's content. But don't call on government to punish people for simply using their constitutional rights.
I was referring to this.
https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620
This is hateful language against Jewish students. I also agree it might be protected speech under the First Amendment.
I fear that University administrators only "discovered" the First Amendment on October 8 for this one topic.
Let's see what happens in the future when student protests against Trans-rights, LBGTQ+, Abortion, and/or race. When affected groups go to the administrators to complain that "violence" is being committed against them, will administrators lecture about the First Amendment like they are Jewish students?
I hope they do, but honestly, I doubt it.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 23, 2023, 01:03:56 AM
I was referring to this.
https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1714008395231936620
This is hateful language against Jewish students. I also agree it might be protected speech under the First Amendment.
I fear that University administrators only "discovered" the First Amendment on October 8 for this one topic.
Let's see what happens in the future when student protests against Trans-rights, LBGTQ+, Abortion, and/or race. When affected groups go to the administrators to complain that "violence" is being committed against them, will administrators lecture about the First Amendment like they are Jewish students?
I hope they do, but honestly, I doubt it.
And again, groups affected by protected speech against Trans-rights, LBGTQ+, Abortion, and/or race already report to universities daily and universities respond by offering support for the affected while explaining free speech can't be punished by the university.
If universities punishing people for protected speech against "liberal topics" was such a rampant problem as you claim, you must be able to provide some examples. Or is it possible that universities "discovered" the first amendment decades ago and have been championing it since?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 23, 2023, 12:27:25 AM
I asked you for examples on this point. You gave two and it turned out that the courts had ruled that the university was correct in both cases. Would you like to try again? Examples do exist of universities punishing people for free speech. Most of them are from conservative religious universities punishing more progressive free speech (usually because they are within their rights to due to having a little more leeway [or a lot more leeway depending on the institution] due to their religious missions). But there have been a handful of isolated incidents were a liberal university was smacked for attempting to punish conservative free speech, but they are few and far between.
I think you underestimate how much "similar hate by anti-LGBTQ+, right-to-life, and racist groups" gets reported to universities on a daily basis and how the vast majority of that gets dismissed due to it being protected free speech.
It's concerning to me Heisey that you started a thread in the last month criticizing universities for not being more encouraging of free speech and you have so quickly abandoned your principles. I think it was you who said earlier in this thread that we fight to protect terrible speech because non-terrible speech doesn't need protecting. There's truth to that statement. We have seen a lot of terrible speech since October 7. Use your free speech to call out, criticize, lambast, to your heart's content. But don't call on government to punish people for simply using their constitutional rights.
He doesn't have any examples. He's changed the wording of his stance to be a straw man/hypothetical.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 11:36:17 PM
Do you think Jewish supporters of Israel who are scared and upset with all the "river to the sea" and "gas the Jews" protests come here and see
The moral equivalency
On-campus protests this past week of hateful anti-Semitic words, which get defended under the First Amendment, we all know similar hate said by anti-LGBTQ+, right-to-life, and racist groups would NEVER be tolerated like this.
The contention that the UN said Palestine is a country in the same place as Isreal
The contention is not a fight for the survival of Israel
The doubts that Imans have been told by the Palestinian Authority to call for the murder of Jews this weekend
The focus was on Israel more than the Palestinians
The initial accusation was that Isreal was lying about the hospital bombing
The contention is that Isreal is an apartheid state
The contention that Isreal committed war crimes
The indictment that Isreal violated international law
The fear they are going to commit genocide on the Palestinians
The charge Isreal does not do enough to protest Palestinian civilians, without regard to what the Palestinians did to 1,500 dead Jews and 210 hostages first
The accusation of treating the Palestinians as "sub-human" but not once saying the Palestinians treat the Jews as "sub-human." (except by me, and when I do, I get banned for a week.)
I could go on, but I did not make up this s***. You, and many others in this thread, set the tone of the discussion here, and it never occurred to you how the actual victims of October 7 would view it.
So how about you tell the Jews that suffered a family loss in Isreal, have to go to Synagogue with armed guards in front, turn on the TV to see "gas the Jews" and "from the river to the sea" (including hate speech on MU's campus this week) should feel about these 60 pages?
How about you tell them why we are an inclusive community for them and how these 60 pages show that?
----
So, I'll answer your subsequent response now. I am not stooping to your demand for "pictures," and I do not give a f**k what you think of me.
I put the chances at about 2% that the Jews of Scoop contacted you.
I put the chances at 0% that you don't care what people here think of you. Your entire schtick is passing yourself off as some high thinking, pseudo-intellectual. It's a plea for attention and acceptance.
In an editor's note today, the NYT admitted it erred in its early coverage of the hospital explosion, especially the headline featuring Israel being blamed by Hamas.
On Oct. 17, The New York Times published news of an explosion at a hospital in Gaza City, leading its coverage with claims by Hamas government officials that an Israeli airstrike was the cause and that hundreds of people were dead or injured. The report included a large headline at the top of The Times's website.
Israel subsequently denied being at fault and blamed an errant rocket launch by the Palestinian faction group Islamic Jihad, which has in turn denied responsibility. American and other international officials have said their evidence indicates that the rocket came from Palestinian fighter positions.
The Times's initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast. However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified. The report left readers with an incorrect impression about what was known and how credible the account was.
The Times continued to update its coverage as more information became available, reporting the disputed claims of responsibility and noting that the death toll might be lower than initially reported. Within two hours, the headline and other text at the top of the website reflected the scope of the explosion and the dispute over responsibility.
Given the sensitive nature of the news during a widening conflict, and the prominent promotion it received, Times editors should have taken more care with the initial presentation, and been more explicit about what information could be verified. Newsroom leaders continue to examine procedures around the biggest breaking news events — including for the use of the largest headlines in the digital report — to determine what additional safeguards may be warranted.
I am glad the Times acknowledged this, and I hope this incident will help avoid such poor judgment in the future. The Times has generally done a very good job covering this conflict, but it simply can't be that reckless. Too much is at stake.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 10:51:45 AM
Fifty-eight pages, and I am most vocal of maybe 2 or 3 people against the secular Western progressive view here. And yes, for that, I was banned for a week.
You were banned for a week for being a douche canoe. Keep it up.
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2023, 06:55:27 AM
In an editor's note today, the NYT admitted in erred in its early coverage of the hospital explosion, especially the headline featuring Israel being blamed by Hamas.
On Oct. 17, The New York Times published news of an explosion at a hospital in Gaza City, leading its coverage with claims by Hamas government officials that an Israeli airstrike was the cause and that hundreds of people were dead or injured. The report included a large headline at the top of The Times's website.
Israel subsequently denied being at fault and blamed an errant rocket launch by the Palestinian faction group Islamic Jihad, which has in turn denied responsibility. American and other international officials have said their evidence indicates that the rocket came from Palestinian fighter positions.
The Times's initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast. However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified. The report left readers with an incorrect impression about what was known and how credible the account was.
The Times continued to update its coverage as more information became available, reporting the disputed claims of responsibility and noting that the death toll might be lower than initially reported. Within two hours, the headline and other text at the top of the website reflected the scope of the explosion and the dispute over responsibility.
Given the sensitive nature of the news during a widening conflict, and the prominent promotion it received, Times editors should have taken more care with the initial presentation, and been more explicit about what information could be verified. Newsroom leaders continue to examine procedures around the biggest breaking news events — including for the use of the largest headlines in the digital report — to determine what additional safeguards may be warranted.
I am glad the Times acknowledged this, and I hope this incident will help avoid such poor judgment in the future. The Times has generally done a very good job covering this conflict, but it simply can't be that reckless. Too much is at stake.
Agreed. Good for them for acknowledging errors. There are still some oddities about that explosion (including the death toll), which is why major media should hold off until they know more details.
Similar for Levitz, who made a small correction to his report on child beheading. In absolute absurdity, he was called an antisemite for making a small correction to his original piece, despite the fact that he has been a leading journalist in bringing attention to the atrocities that Hamas has inflicted.
Here is some good fact-checking by the AP on some of the misinformation that's been on social media in recent days ...
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e?user_email=6647dfa7189f748384d7389910f7b584c6fcfc35ae990102964c7e826d4175c7&utm_medium=Morning_Wire&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=Morning%20Wire_23%20October_2023&utm_term=Morning%20Wire%20Subscribers
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 11:36:17 PM
So, I'll answer your subsequent response now. I am not stooping to your demand for "pictures," and I do not give a f**k what you think of me.
Actually you're not stooping to anything. You're making a bunch of strong claims and using an anonymous faction of Jewish Scoopers to buttress your stance.
Before I get lumped with the other "Western progressives" since I'm sure you missed it on your hiatus...I'm one of the stronger, yet measured, "pro-Israel" voices in this thread. I'm married to a Jewish woman who has been sick with worry and anguish over Israel since 10/7 to the point that I almost had to take her phone so she didn't doom scroll herself to grief insanity. She's still been cautious, even a bit paranoid, about being out and about since then.
My BIL is an actual Israeli from Tel Aviv. He and my SIL are Modern Orthodox with 3 kids in a Jewish Day School. Half his extended family including a sibling and all of his mother's siblings are still in Israel. Their neighbors and best friends in NJ were stranded for 24 hours at a hotel in Tel Aviv from 10/7 to 10/8. They've vacillated between instinctive anger and desire for revenge, and pragmatic desires to end cycles of violence and fear for their loved ones in Israel.
But I can tell you for absolute certainty, and I know this from various conversations directly about this over the last 2 weeks, they have no interest and are very unhappy about people co-opting their feelings or fear or anger to push an agenda. Or non-Jewish voices (or ones not historically in pro-Jewish advocacy positions/stances) to speak for them. They also know ACUTELY what anti-Semitism looks like, how it manifests in statements or implications, and don't throw the label around foolishly, because all it does is water down the malice of true anti-Semitism. I can remember a dinner a few years ago, my SIL went on a tangent and called someone anti-Semitic and my BIL, who had been mostly stoic and quiet (like an Israeli man ;)), immediately checked her and called her out and said she shouldn't make blanket statements cause "Jews in this climate don't need some Boy Who Cried Wolf stigma BS about that label"
That is a good synopsis of where things stand as of this writing. (see the highlighted part at the bottom)
---
The United Nations has revised its grim figure of the rising death toll from Israel's bombardment of Gaza, saying that it has surpassed 5,000 as of Monday. It stands at 5,087. Separately, over 90 Palestinians have been killed in escalating West Bank violence, which over the weekend included Israel launching a rare airstrike on Jenin. Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) are still holding at least 222 Israeli and foreign captives - a number which has again been revised upward.
European Union foreign ministers are meanwhile gathered in Brussels for an urgent meeting to take up the contentious issue of a ceasefire. UN secretary-general Antonio Guterres has been calling on world bodies to back a ceasefire. In response, EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said, "Personally, I think that a humanitarian pause is needed in order to allow the humanitarian support to come in and be distributed, seeing that half of the population of Gaza has been moving from their houses."
Bloomberg is reporting Monday morning that EU leaders are set to endorse a call for a "humanitarian pause". "The European Council supports the call of UNSG (U.N. Secretary-General Antonio) Guterres for a humanitarian pause in order to allow for safe humanitarian access and aid to reach those in need," a draft statement of the summit reads.
But Washington, Israel's staunchest supporter, is not expected to back a ceasefire - despite reports President Biden has sought for Israel's military delay the expected imminent ground invasion, in order to buy more time to negotiate the freedom of more hostages.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken in the Sunday news shows made this clear. Margaret Brennan, the host of CBS News's "Face the Nation," asked him, "UNICEF says 1,524 children have been killed in the Gaza Strip during these bombings. Why isn't the US calling for at least a temporary ceasefire?"
Blinken then claimed that children dying on either side has hit him "right in the heart" - but he stopped short of directing any criticism at Israel's indiscriminate and unrelenting bombing campaign. Instead, he defended it:
"Israel has to do everything it can to make sure this doesn't happen again," Blinken said in reference to October 7 Hamas cross-border attack. "Freezing things in place where they are now would allow Hamas to remain where it is and to repeat what it's done some time in the future. No country could accept that."
He then cited unverified reports that Hamas has actively blocked Palestinians who are also American citizens from leaving the Gaza Strip. "We've had people come to Rafah, the crossing with Egypt. And to date, at least, Hamas has blocked them from leaving, showing once again, its total disregard for civilians of any kind who are — who are stuck in Gaza," Blinken said. "So really, the ball is in Hamas' court, in terms of letting people who want to leave, civilians from third countries, including Americans get out of Gaza."
There are a reported up to 600 Americans stuck in Gaza, with one Palestinian-American telling NBC that "America's not helping us, Biden's not helping us, the embassy is not helping us."
The United States is still bolstering its military presence in Middle East waters, readying for any contingency, even as it's said to be pressing for furthering back-channel negotiations and delaying an all-out Israeli assault:
It was becoming increasingly clear Monday that the U.S. wants Israel to not only allow more humanitarian assistance into Gaza, but for the country to let ongoing negotiations over the release of hostages held by Hamas to continue before it launches a ground invasion of the Palestinian territory. Israel said Monday that Hamas was still holding 222 people captive.
Two sources told CBS News the U.S. has sought to slow Israel's plans for a ground invasion in order to prioritize the release of hostages and the distribution of aid, a message Washington is said to have been conveying primarily through defense channels.
The Pentagon is calling its moving two aircraft carrier strike groups into regional waters an act of "deterrence".
The Pentagon is calling its moving two aircraft carrier strike groups into regional waters an act of "deterrence".
Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin had announced Saturday, "Following detailed discussions with President Biden on recent escalations by Iran and its proxy forces across the Middle East Region, today I directed a series of additional steps to further strengthen the Department of Defense posture in the region." He added: "These steps will bolster regional deterrence efforts, increase force protection for U.S. forces in the region, and assist in the defense of Israel."
The White House has Iran in mind, and its proxies Hezbollah and Shia Houthi rebels in Yemen, the latter who days ago tried to fire missiles on Israel, but which were intercepted by a US warship off Yemen's coast. US THAAD and Patriot missile batteries have been sent to Israel.
"This is not what we want, not what we're looking for. We don't want escalation," Blinken said. "We don't want to see our forces or our personnel come under fire. But if that happens, we're ready for it." And Austin simultaneously affirmed the statements, saying "what we're seeing is a prospect of a significant escalation of attacks on our troops and our people throughout the region."
It's clear Hezbollah has held off committing itself to a major war with Israel, which could very well happen the moment the IDF mounts a major ground assault into Gaza. Hezbollah's arsenal, with the help of Iran, is far superior to that of Hamas', and is said to include tens of thousands of rockets of varying sizes."This is not what we want, not what we're looking for. We don't want escalation," Blinken said. "We don't want to see our forces or our personnel come under fire. But if that happens, we're ready for it." And Austin simultaneously affirmed the statements, saying "what we're seeing is a prospect of a significant escalation of attacks on our troops and our people throughout the region."
It's clear Hezbollah has held off committing itself to a major war with Israel, which could very well happen the moment the IDF mounts a major ground assault into Gaza. Hezbollah's arsenal, with the help of Iran, is far superior to that of Hamas', and is said to include tens of thousands of rockets of varying sizes.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 23, 2023, 10:11:13 AM
Actually you're not stooping to anything. You're making a bunch of strong claims and using an anonymous faction of Jewish Scoopers to buttress your stance.
Before I get lumped with the other "Western progressives" since I'm sure you missed it on your hiatus...I'm one of the stronger, yet measured, "pro-Israel" voices in this thread. I'm married to a Jewish woman who has been sick with worry and anguish over Israel since 10/7 to the point that I almost had to take her phone so she didn't doom scroll herself to grief insanity. She's still been cautious, even a bit paranoid, about being out and about since then.
My BIL is an actual Israeli from Tel Aviv. He and my SIL are Modern Orthodox with 3 kids in a Jewish Day School. Half his extended family including a sibling and all of his mother's siblings are still in Israel. Their neighbors and best friends in NJ were stranded for 24 hours at a hotel in Tel Aviv from 10/7 to 10/8. They've vacillated between instinctive anger and desire for revenge, and pragmatic desires to end cycles of violence and fear for their loved ones in Israel.
But I can tell you for absolute certainty, and I know this from various conversations directly about this over the last 2 weeks, they have no interest and are very unhappy about people co-opting their feelings or fear or anger to push an agenda. Or non-Jewish voices (or ones not historically in pro-Jewish advocacy positions/stances) to speak for them. They also know ACUTELY what anti-Semitism looks like, how it manifests in statements or implications, and don't throw the label around foolishly, because all it does is water down the malice of true anti-Semitism. I can remember a dinner a few years ago, my SIL went on a tangent and called someone anti-Semitic and my BIL, who had been mostly stoic and quiet (like an Israeli man ;)), immediately checked her and called her out and said she shouldn't make blanket statements cause "Jews in this climate don't need some Boy Who Cried Wolf stigma BS about that label"
I appreciate your first hand knowledge and thoughts, and I can't imagine how you, your wife, and your family are feeling right now. I can only send all my love and support into the universe for all of you. I hope the fear and paranoia go away because anti-semitism and violence against Jews goes away.
Can anyone think of a parallel to some of the protests we are seeing right now all over the world and here in tbe USA? Innocent civilians are viciously attacked, barbarically murdered, and people are in the streets blaming Israel and shouting vile things about Jews? Imagine what they will do once Israel actually starts their offensive. Isn't this a strong indication of how completely whacked and antisemitic people are? I must have missed the protests blaming the victim in other genocidal massacres. This is crazy and embarrassing frankly.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 23, 2023, 10:28:58 AM
Can anyone think of a parallel to some of the protests we are seeing right now all over the world and here in tbe USA? Innocent civilians are viciously attacked, barbarically murdered, and people are in the streets blaming Israel and shouting vile things about Jews? Imagine what they will do once Israel actually starts their offensive. Isn't this a strong indication of how completely whacked and antisemitic people are? I must have missed the protests blaming the victim in other genocidal massacres. This is crazy and embarrassing frankly.
Muggs, I think you're baiting here and asking for equivalencies and whataboutism that you understandably and sometimes accurately shoot down and decry. If someone says, for example, in response to George Floyd's death, there were pro-police, even pro-Chauvin, protests, how would you respond? What do you actually want out of your question?
Candidly, I do appreciate you asking a question rather than making a blanket statement.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 23, 2023, 10:34:21 AM
Muggs, I think you're baiting here and asking for equivalencies and whataboutism that you understandably and sometimes accurately shoot down and decry. If someone says, for example, in response to George Floyd's death, there were pro-police, even pro-Chauvin, protests, how would you respond? What do you actually want out of your question?
Candidly, I do appreciate you asking a question rather than making a blanket statement.
You're comparing Grorge Flloyd to this? Okay.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 23, 2023, 10:36:56 AM
You're comparing Grorge Flloyd to this? Okay.
Exactly. Not only am I not comparing George Floyd to this, but I am asking you what do you want out of your question? I don't think you want an answer, but I'm curious what answer would satisfy your question.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 23, 2023, 10:28:58 AM
Can anyone think of a parallel to some of the protests we are seeing right now all over the world and here in tbe USA? Innocent civilians are viciously attacked, barbarically murdered, and people are in the streets blaming Israel and shouting vile things about Jews? Imagine what they will do once Israel actually starts their offensive. Isn't this a strong indication of how completely whacked and antisemitic people are? I must have missed the protests blaming the victim in other genocidal massacres. This is crazy and embarrassing frankly.
Very fine people on both sides, aina?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 23, 2023, 10:28:58 AM
Can anyone think of a parallel to some of the protests we are seeing right now all over the world and here in tbe USA? Innocent civilians are viciously attacked, barbarically murdered, and people are in the streets blaming Israel and shouting vile things about Jews? Imagine what they will do once Israel actually starts their offensive. Isn't this a strong indication of how completely whacked and antisemitic people are? I must have missed the protests blaming the victim in other genocidal massacres. This is crazy and embarrassing frankly.
Video has emerged of far-right Israeli protesters celebrating the death of children in Gaza during a counter-demonstration to an anti-war rally in Tel Aviv's Rabin Square over the weekend.
"There is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza," the men can be seen chanting as part of a roughly formed song that also included the stanzas "I hate all the Arabs" and "Gaza is a cemetery."
The mob also called for Israeli Arabs to be stripped of their citizenship.https://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-far-right-israelis-celebrate-gaza-kids-deaths/
Quote from: JWags85 on October 23, 2023, 10:11:13 AM
Actually you're not stooping to anything. You're making a bunch of strong claims and using an anonymous faction of Jewish Scoopers to buttress your stance.
Before I get lumped with the other "Western progressives" since I'm sure you missed it on your hiatus...I'm one of the stronger, yet measured, "pro-Israel" voices in this thread. I'm married to a Jewish woman who has been sick with worry and anguish over Israel since 10/7 to the point that I almost had to take her phone so she didn't doom scroll herself to grief insanity. She's still been cautious, even a bit paranoid, about being out and about since then.
My BIL is an actual Israeli from Tel Aviv. He and my SIL are Modern Orthodox with 3 kids in a Jewish Day School. Half his extended family including a sibling and all of his mother's siblings are still in Israel. Their neighbors and best friends in NJ were stranded for 24 hours at a hotel in Tel Aviv from 10/7 to 10/8. They've vacillated between instinctive anger and desire for revenge, and pragmatic desires to end cycles of violence and fear for their loved ones in Israel.
But I can tell you for absolute certainty, and I know this from various conversations directly about this over the last 2 weeks, they have no interest and are very unhappy about people co-opting their feelings or fear or anger to push an agenda. Or non-Jewish voices (or ones not historically in pro-Jewish advocacy positions/stances) to speak for them. They also know ACUTELY what anti-Semitism looks like, how it manifests in statements or implications, and don't throw the label around foolishly, because all it does is water down the malice of true anti-Semitism. I can remember a dinner a few years ago, my SIL went on a tangent and called someone anti-Semitic and my BIL, who had been mostly stoic and quiet (like an Israeli man ;)), immediately checked her and called her out and said she shouldn't make blanket statements cause "Jews in this climate don't need some Boy Who Cried Wolf stigma BS about that label"
Heisy: "Jew-hater!"
Doc Dribble: "Ur nummburr 11, oona?"
Muggs: "It's unacceptable that you don't want to vaporize everybody."
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2023, 10:53:39 AM
Heisy: "Jew-hater!"
Doc Dribble: "Ur nummburr 11, oona?"
Muggs: "It's unacceptable that you don't want to vaporize everybody."
lol accurate
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2023, 10:46:14 AM
Video has emerged of far-right Israeli protesters celebrating the death of children in Gaza during a counter-demonstration to an anti-war rally in Tel Aviv's Rabin Square over the weekend.
"There is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza," the men can be seen chanting as part of a roughly formed song that also included the stanzas "I hate all the Arabs" and "Gaza is a cemetery."
The mob also called for Israeli Arabs to be stripped of their citizenship.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-far-right-israelis-celebrate-gaza-kids-deaths/
Minneapolis this morning ...
Unfortunately, all this is rounding errors compared to what is coming when the ground war begins.
----
https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1716429437753847878
Pro-Palestine mob takes over the street and swarms an elderly driver in Minneapolis.
After the driver made it through the initial mob of people, he was blocked at the next intersection by cars.
The mob then chased after the man to harass him some more.
Footage on the ground appears to suggest that the man *may* have been pepper sprayed in the face as he seemed to have a difficult time opening his eyes.
Pro-Palestine protesters tried breaking his windows and dented the side of his car.
The group organizer Zach Metzger reportedly shared the video online himself and told the radicals to find the man in a now deleted post.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 23, 2023, 11:10:59 AM
Minneapolis this morning ...
Unfortunately, all this is rounding errors compared to what is coming when the ground war begins.
----
https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1716429437753847878
Pro-Palestine mob takes over the street and swarms an elderly driver in Minneapolis.
After the driver made it through the initial mob of people, he was blocked at the next intersection by cars.
The mob then chased after the man to harass him some more.
Footage on the ground appears to suggest that the man *may* have been pepper sprayed in the face as he seemed to have a difficult time opening his eyes.
Pro-Palestine protesters tried breaking his windows and dented the side of his car.
The group organizer Zach Metzger reportedly shared the video online himself and told the radicals to find the man in a now deleted post.
This may come as a surprise, but Heisey isn't exactly telling the whole story here.
After all this time, and he still thinks people aren't going to fact-check him.
A video shared on social media shows a vehicle driving through a large crowd at a Minneapolis, Minnesota, rally in support of Palestinians in Gaza.
Shortly after 3:20 p.m. on Sunday, officers from the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) responded to multiple reports of disturbances surrounding a demonstration near the city's Loring Park neighborhood, MPD spokesperson Aaron Rose told Newsweek in an email.
At the intersection of Hennepin and Lyndale avenues and Vineland Place, a group of rally attendees held a "die-in," a form of protest in which participants lie down in public as if dead to show the "seriousness of the ethnic cleansing that is happening in the Gaza Strip," the organizers said, noting this is where the chaos erupted.
"A hostile driver threatened protesters with his car and a box cutter," the statement reads. "He was disarmed by protest security but then he drove through the crowd."
Video shared on social media shows a white vehicle driving into the crowd before the driver appears to exit the car and briefly engage with people nearby, according to drone footage and ground audio captured by non-profit media organization Unicorn Riot, which amassed an online following for its live-stream coverage of the protests that erupted in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd.
As the driver is getting back inside the vehicle, the crowd starts to surround the car before the driver backs up and speeds away, the drone footage shows. In the three-minute clip, shared by Unicorn Riot on X, formerly Twitter, the white vehicle turns around and heads back toward the rally attendees before driving off.
https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-hostile-driver-plow-through-minneapolis-pro-palestinian-rally-1836786
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 23, 2023, 10:16:29 AM
That is a good synopsis of where things stand as of this writing. (see the highlighted part at the bottom)
---
The United Nations has revised its grim figure of the rising death toll from Israel's bombardment of Gaza, saying that it has surpassed 5,000 as of Monday. It stands at 5,087. Separately, over 90 Palestinians have been killed in escalating West Bank violence, which over the weekend included Israel launching a rare airstrike on Jenin. Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) are still holding at least 222 Israeli and foreign captives - a number which has again been revised upward.
European Union foreign ministers are meanwhile gathered in Brussels for an urgent meeting to take up the contentious issue of a ceasefire. UN secretary-general Antonio Guterres has been calling on world bodies to back a ceasefire. In response, EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said, "Personally, I think that a humanitarian pause is needed in order to allow the humanitarian support to come in and be distributed, seeing that half of the population of Gaza has been moving from their houses."
Bloomberg is reporting Monday morning that EU leaders are set to endorse a call for a "humanitarian pause". "The European Council supports the call of UNSG (U.N. Secretary-General Antonio) Guterres for a humanitarian pause in order to allow for safe humanitarian access and aid to reach those in need," a draft statement of the summit reads.
But Washington, Israel's staunchest supporter, is not expected to back a ceasefire - despite reports President Biden has sought for Israel's military delay the expected imminent ground invasion, in order to buy more time to negotiate the freedom of more hostages.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken in the Sunday news shows made this clear. Margaret Brennan, the host of CBS News's "Face the Nation," asked him, "UNICEF says 1,524 children have been killed in the Gaza Strip during these bombings. Why isn't the US calling for at least a temporary ceasefire?"
Blinken then claimed that children dying on either side has hit him "right in the heart" - but he stopped short of directing any criticism at Israel's indiscriminate and unrelenting bombing campaign. Instead, he defended it:
"Israel has to do everything it can to make sure this doesn't happen again," Blinken said in reference to October 7 Hamas cross-border attack. "Freezing things in place where they are now would allow Hamas to remain where it is and to repeat what it's done some time in the future. No country could accept that."
He then cited unverified reports that Hamas has actively blocked Palestinians who are also American citizens from leaving the Gaza Strip. "We've had people come to Rafah, the crossing with Egypt. And to date, at least, Hamas has blocked them from leaving, showing once again, its total disregard for civilians of any kind who are — who are stuck in Gaza," Blinken said. "So really, the ball is in Hamas' court, in terms of letting people who want to leave, civilians from third countries, including Americans get out of Gaza."
There are a reported up to 600 Americans stuck in Gaza, with one Palestinian-American telling NBC that "America's not helping us, Biden's not helping us, the embassy is not helping us."
The United States is still bolstering its military presence in Middle East waters, readying for any contingency, even as it's said to be pressing for furthering back-channel negotiations and delaying an all-out Israeli assault:
It was becoming increasingly clear Monday that the U.S. wants Israel to not only allow more humanitarian assistance into Gaza, but for the country to let ongoing negotiations over the release of hostages held by Hamas to continue before it launches a ground invasion of the Palestinian territory. Israel said Monday that Hamas was still holding 222 people captive.
Two sources told CBS News the U.S. has sought to slow Israel's plans for a ground invasion in order to prioritize the release of hostages and the distribution of aid, a message Washington is said to have been conveying primarily through defense channels.
The Pentagon is calling its moving two aircraft carrier strike groups into regional waters an act of "deterrence".
The Pentagon is calling its moving two aircraft carrier strike groups into regional waters an act of "deterrence".
Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin had announced Saturday, "Following detailed discussions with President Biden on recent escalations by Iran and its proxy forces across the Middle East Region, today I directed a series of additional steps to further strengthen the Department of Defense posture in the region." He added: "These steps will bolster regional deterrence efforts, increase force protection for U.S. forces in the region, and assist in the defense of Israel."
The White House has Iran in mind, and its proxies Hezbollah and Shia Houthi rebels in Yemen, the latter who days ago tried to fire missiles on Israel, but which were intercepted by a US warship off Yemen's coast. US THAAD and Patriot missile batteries have been sent to Israel.
"This is not what we want, not what we're looking for. We don't want escalation," Blinken said. "We don't want to see our forces or our personnel come under fire. But if that happens, we're ready for it." And Austin simultaneously affirmed the statements, saying "what we're seeing is a prospect of a significant escalation of attacks on our troops and our people throughout the region."
It's clear Hezbollah has held off committing itself to a major war with Israel, which could very well happen the moment the IDF mounts a major ground assault into Gaza. Hezbollah's arsenal, with the help of Iran, is far superior to that of Hamas', and is said to include tens of thousands of rockets of varying sizes."This is not what we want, not what we're looking for. We don't want escalation," Blinken said. "We don't want to see our forces or our personnel come under fire. But if that happens, we're ready for it." And Austin simultaneously affirmed the statements, saying "what we're seeing is a prospect of a significant escalation of attacks on our troops and our people throughout the region."
It's clear Hezbollah has held off committing itself to a major war with Israel, which could very well happen the moment the IDF mounts a major ground assault into Gaza. Hezbollah's arsenal, with the help of Iran, is far superior to that of Hamas', and is said to include tens of thousands of rockets of varying sizes.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/gaza-death-toll-surpasses-5000-amid-un-eu-calls-ceasefire-us-increases-deterrence
Tyler Durden? Wasn't he a movie character?
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2023, 10:53:39 AM
Heisy: "Jew-hater!"
Doc Dribble: "Ur nummburr 11, oona?"
Muggs: "It's unacceptable that you don't want to vaporize everybody."
I made ONE gd post in this thread of 1500+ , and that was 12 days ago and didn't even deal with a substantive issue. I have purposely stayed out of the debate.
Why the f*ck am I getting ripped.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 23, 2023, 11:20:08 AM
This may come as a surprise, but Heisey isn't exactly telling the whole story here.
After all this time, and he still thinks people aren't going to fact-check him.
A video shared on social media shows a vehicle driving through a large crowd at a Minneapolis, Minnesota, rally in support of Palestinians in Gaza.
Shortly after 3:20 p.m. on Sunday, officers from the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) responded to multiple reports of disturbances surrounding a demonstration near the city's Loring Park neighborhood, MPD spokesperson Aaron Rose told Newsweek in an email.
At the intersection of Hennepin and Lyndale avenues and Vineland Place, a group of rally attendees held a "die-in," a form of protest in which participants lie down in public as if dead to show the "seriousness of the ethnic cleansing that is happening in the Gaza Strip," the organizers said, noting this is where the chaos erupted.
"A hostile driver threatened protesters with his car and a box cutter," the statement reads. "He was disarmed by protest security but then he drove through the crowd."
Video shared on social media shows a white vehicle driving into the crowd before the driver appears to exit the car and briefly engage with people nearby, according to drone footage and ground audio captured by non-profit media organization Unicorn Riot, which amassed an online following for its live-stream coverage of the protests that erupted in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd.
As the driver is getting back inside the vehicle, the crowd starts to surround the car before the driver backs up and speeds away, the drone footage shows. In the three-minute clip, shared by Unicorn Riot on X, formerly Twitter, the white vehicle turns around and heads back toward the rally attendees before driving off.
https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-hostile-driver-plow-through-minneapolis-pro-palestinian-rally-1836786
Blame the victim ... nice look,
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on October 23, 2023, 11:29:55 AM
I made ONE gd post in this thread of 1500+ , and that was 12 days ago and didn't even deal with a substantive issue. I have purposely stayed out of the debate.
Why the f*ck am I getting ripped.
Doc Dribble is 4ever.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 23, 2023, 11:10:59 AM
Minneapolis this morning ...
Unfortunately, all this is rounding errors compared to what is coming when the ground war begins.
----
https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1716429437753847878
Pro-Palestine mob takes over the street and swarms an elderly driver in Minneapolis.
After the driver made it through the initial mob of people, he was blocked at the next intersection by cars.
The mob then chased after the man to harass him some more.
Footage on the ground appears to suggest that the man *may* have been pepper sprayed in the face as he seemed to have a difficult time opening his eyes.
Pro-Palestine protesters tried breaking his windows and dented the side of his car.
The group organizer Zach Metzger reportedly shared the video online himself and told the radicals to find the man in a now deleted post.
Anti-Semitism in America was horrific even before this started, as evidenced from the Charlottesville rally and its aftermath. Now it's been stirred up to a whole 'nother level -- often due to hatred and/or religious zealotry, but sometimes due to misinformation.
I have little doubt that you will proudly get to say, "I told you so" -- as if you've made some kind of earth-shaking prediction. Congrats.
There will be plenty of attacks against those from Muslim countries, too, as the Islamophobia that has been increasing in the U.S. for decades gets ratcheted up to new heights.
The millions of Americans who hate both Jews and Muslims can really party now!
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2023, 06:55:27 AM
In an editor's note today, the NYT admitted it erred in its early coverage of the hospital explosion, especially the headline featuring Israel being blamed by Hamas.
On Oct. 17, The New York Times published news of an explosion at a hospital in Gaza City, leading its coverage with claims by Hamas government officials that an Israeli airstrike was the cause and that hundreds of people were dead or injured. The report included a large headline at the top of The Times's website.
Israel subsequently denied being at fault and blamed an errant rocket launch by the Palestinian faction group Islamic Jihad, which has in turn denied responsibility. American and other international officials have said their evidence indicates that the rocket came from Palestinian fighter positions.
The Times's initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast. However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified. The report left readers with an incorrect impression about what was known and how credible the account was.
The Times continued to update its coverage as more information became available, reporting the disputed claims of responsibility and noting that the death toll might be lower than initially reported. Within two hours, the headline and other text at the top of the website reflected the scope of the explosion and the dispute over responsibility.
Given the sensitive nature of the news during a widening conflict, and the prominent promotion it received, Times editors should have taken more care with the initial presentation, and been more explicit about what information could be verified. Newsroom leaders continue to examine procedures around the biggest breaking news events — including for the use of the largest headlines in the digital report — to determine what additional safeguards may be warranted.
I am glad the Times acknowledged this, and I hope this incident will help avoid such poor judgment in the future. The Times has generally done a very good job covering this conflict, but it simply can't be that reckless. Too much is at stake.
Six days too late. The outrage caused by this irresponsible reporting led to Biden's meeting with Palestinian officials in Amman getting canceled.
This was a big blow to find a deal for hostages or even a possible compromise.
Lives were unnecessarily put at risk.
Who has lost their job over this?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 23, 2023, 08:17:46 AM
You were banned for a week for being a douche canoe. Keep it up.
^^^ sexist
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on October 23, 2023, 11:29:55 AM
I made ONE gd post in this thread of 1500+ , and that was 12 days ago and didn't even deal with a substantive issue. I have purposely stayed out of the debate.
Why the f*ck am I getting ripped.
Pretty sure he means 4ever.
Quote from: Dickthedribbler on October 23, 2023, 11:29:55 AM
I made ONE gd post in this thread of 1500+ , and that was 12 days ago and didn't even deal with a substantive issue. I have purposely stayed out of the debate.
Why the f*ck am I getting ripped.
Not you, fine sir.
Ewe dew knot post lyke Doc Dribble duz, oona?
Management regrets any confusion.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 23, 2023, 11:29:59 AM
Blame the victim ... nice look,
He intentionally drove into a crowd, threatened people with a knife and possibly fired a gunshot (per some witness reports).
The idea that you consider that person the victim is on brand.
Video of the guy with a knife:
https://twitter.com/ByGeorgiaFort/status/1716253416291246486?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1716253416291246486%7Ctwgr%5E3c35b362f4fd43d8cbea4b0d1988115eee65ac44%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Funicornriot.ninja%2F2023%2Fpro-palestine-protest-attacked-in-minneapolis%2F
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 23, 2023, 11:29:44 AM
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/gaza-death-toll-surpasses-5000-amid-un-eu-calls-ceasefire-us-increases-deterrence
Tyler Durden? Wasn't he a movie character?
I had to put Heisy and his 10,000 word essays on ignore, but he is still quoting zerohedge? LOL.
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2023, 11:33:58 AM
Anti-Semitism in America was horrific even before this started, as evidenced from the Charlottesville rally and its aftermath. Now it's been stirred up to a whole 'nother level -- often due to hatred and/or religious zealotry, but sometimes due to misinformation.
I have little doubt that you will proudly get to say, "I told you so" -- as if you've made some kind of earth-shaking prediction. Congrats.
There will be plenty of attacks against those from Muslim countries, too, as the Islamophobia that has been increasing in the U.S. for decades gets ratcheted up to new heights.
The millions of Americans who hate both Jews and Muslims can really party now!
This isn't to "bothsiderism" the conversation, but this is totally a garbage byproduct of the "shoot first from the hip, think later" broad brushing that everyone seems to want to do, especially through the cloak of social media. Being racially insensitive (even if accidentally) makes someone a RACIST. Supporting a progressive viewpoint (even if they are very much moderate overall) makes someone WOKE. Any opposition or counter view point to anything makes someone "blank-phobic" or a socialist/communist.
So someone might not be naturally be Islamphobic but they see the radical voices in a dumb protest or stupid statement and broad brush everyone supporting Palestine or a Muslim who opposes the Israeli government as a Hamas-supporting/Jihad loving extremist, especially in the absence of a "normal" everyday Muslim they may know or be friends with, so now they slide in that direction.
Similarly, people lump all Jews in with Israel so if they don't know any Jewish people or affiliated voices, they cluster all Jewish/pro-Israel voices with Likud/Zionist extremism they see online and develop an anti-Semitic bias or viewpoint, aka find it easier to buy into "Jews run the world/media/finance" conspiracy BS.
I think back to when I didn't personally have an gay/lesbian friends in my 20s and found it much easier to be ambivalent about their issues/rights. Not so much against it but it was a much more sterile static perspective. Then one of my good friends came out and I started a job and became very close with another gay coworker and suddenly it became a much more human and nuanced discussion. And this is 15 years ago where I didn't have quite the pervasive and heavy influence of social media in solitary mental moments to color perspectives.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 11:36:17 PM
So, I'll answer your subsequent response now. I am not stooping to your demand for "pictures," and I do not give a f**k what you think of me.
You reply to every single post with a wall of rambling text. So if you don't care what we think of you, that's an odd way to show it.
But I very much hope you do not care what I think of you, because I am not important in this humanitarian crisis.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 23, 2023, 10:11:13 AM
Actually you're not stooping to anything. You're making a bunch of strong claims and using an anonymous faction of Jewish Scoopers to buttress your stance.
Before I get lumped with the other "Western progressives" since I'm sure you missed it on your hiatus...I'm one of the stronger, yet measured, "pro-Israel" voices in this thread. I'm married to a Jewish woman who has been sick with worry and anguish over Israel since 10/7 to the point that I almost had to take her phone so she didn't doom scroll herself to grief insanity. She's still been cautious, even a bit paranoid, about being out and about since then.
My BIL is an actual Israeli from Tel Aviv. He and my SIL are Modern Orthodox with 3 kids in a Jewish Day School. Half his extended family including a sibling and all of his mother's siblings are still in Israel. Their neighbors and best friends in NJ were stranded for 24 hours at a hotel in Tel Aviv from 10/7 to 10/8. They've vacillated between instinctive anger and desire for revenge, and pragmatic desires to end cycles of violence and fear for their loved ones in Israel.
But I can tell you for absolute certainty, and I know this from various conversations directly about this over the last 2 weeks, they have no interest and are very unhappy about people co-opting their feelings or fear or anger to push an agenda. Or non-Jewish voices (or ones not historically in pro-Jewish advocacy positions/stances) to speak for them. They also know ACUTELY what anti-Semitism looks like, how it manifests in statements or implications, and don't throw the label around foolishly, because all it does is water down the malice of true anti-Semitism. I can remember a dinner a few years ago, my SIL went on a tangent and called someone anti-Semitic and my BIL, who had been mostly stoic and quiet (like an Israeli man ;)), immediately checked her and called her out and said she shouldn't make blanket statements cause "Jews in this climate don't need some Boy Who Cried Wolf stigma BS about that label"
Thank you for sharing. That perspective really is very valuable and I really appreciate reading it to help ground my thinking.
I am very cynical in my thinking, but it does feel like using sweeping labels of prejudice and racism for criticismis almost somewhat blatant in its attempts to dilute its meaning. This is a problem across our society, but this topic at large is a pretty poignant example of it.
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2023, 10:53:39 AM
Heisy: "Jew-hater!"
Doc Dribble: "Ur nummburr 11, oona?"
Muggs: "It's unacceptable that you don't want to vaporize everybody."
(https://media.tenor.com/Df-M17pF914AAAAC/alonzo-mourning.gif)
Quote from: JWags85 on October 23, 2023, 12:24:57 PM
This isn't to "bothsiderism" the conversation, but this is totally a garbage byproduct of the "shoot first from the hip, think later" broad brushing that everyone seems to want to do, especially through the cloak of social media. Being racially insensitive (even if accidentally) makes someone a RACIST. Supporting a progressive viewpoint (even if they are very much moderate overall) makes someone WOKE. Any opposition or counter view point to anything makes someone "blank-phobic" or a socialist/communist.
So someone might not be naturally be Islamphobic but they see the radical voices in a dumb protest or stupid statement and broad brush everyone supporting Palestine or a Muslim who opposes the Israeli government as a Hamas-supporting/Jihad loving extremist, especially in the absence of a "normal" everyday Muslim they may know or be friends with, so now they slide in that direction.
Similarly, people lump all Jews in with Israel so if they don't know any Jewish people or affiliated voices, they cluster all Jewish/pro-Israel voices with Likud/Zionist extremism they see online and develop an anti-Semitic bias or viewpoint, aka find it easier to buy into "Jews run the world/media/finance" conspiracy BS.
I think back to when I didn't personally have an gay/lesbian friends in my 20s and found it much easier to be ambivalent about their issues/rights. Not so much against it but it was a much more sterile static perspective. Then one of my good friends came out and I started a job and became very close with another gay coworker and suddenly it became a much more human and nuanced discussion. And this is 15 years ago where I didn't have quite the pervasive and heavy influence of social media in solitary mental moments to color perspectives.
Another superb post, Wags.
Everything said until now was the pregame. When the ground war starts ...
45 minutes ago
Intelligence shows Iranian-backed militias are ready to ramp up their attacks against US forces in the Middle East
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/23/politics/iranian-militias-israel-hamas/index.html
The US has intelligence that Iranian-backed militia groups are planning to ramp up attacks against US forces in the Middle East, as Iran seeks to capitalize on the backlash in the region to US support for Israel, according to multiple US officials.
The militia groups have already launched multiple drone attacks on US forces in Iraq and Syria.
But the US now has specific intelligence that those same groups could escalate even further as the war between Israel and Hamas continues.
There are "red lights flashing everywhere," a US official in the region told CNN.
Officials said that at this point, Iran appears to be encouraging the groups rather than explicitly directing them. One official said Iran is providing guidance to the militia groups that they will not be punished – by not getting resupplied with weaponry, for example – if they continue to attack US or Israeli targets.
I may have missed it, but Heisey didn't seem all that concerned about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 23, 2023, 03:25:00 PM
Everything said until now was the pregame. When the ground war starts ...
45 minutes ago
Intelligence shows Iranian-backed militias are ready to ramp up their attacks against US forces in the Middle East
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/23/politics/iranian-militias-israel-hamas/index.html
The US has intelligence that Iranian-backed militia groups are planning to ramp up attacks against US forces in the Middle East, as Iran seeks to capitalize on the backlash in the region to US support for Israel, according to multiple US officials.
The militia groups have already launched multiple drone attacks on US forces in Iraq and Syria.
But the US now has specific intelligence that those same groups could escalate even further as the war between Israel and Hamas continues.
There are "red lights flashing everywhere," a US official in the region told CNN.
Officials said that at this point, Iran appears to be encouraging the groups rather than explicitly directing them. One official said Iran is providing guidance to the militia groups that they will not be punished – by not getting resupplied with weaponry, for example – if they continue to attack US or Israeli targets.
Reminded me of this clip for some reason
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6WQfTHg1o4
Israel tells Gazans to move south or risk being seen as 'terrorist' partner
https://archive.ph/7OrMX
GAZA, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Palestinians said they had received renewed warnings from Israel's military to move from north Gaza to the south of the strip, with the added warning that they could be identified as sympathisers with a "terrorist organisation" if they stayed put.
The message was delivered in leaflets marked with the Israel Defense Forces name and logo from Saturday and sent to people via mobile phone audio messages across the Gaza Strip, a narrow territory that is just 45 km (28 miles) long.
"Urgent warning, to residents of Gaza. Your presence north of Wadi Gaza puts your life in danger. Whoever chooses not to leave north Gaza to the south of Wadi Gaza might be identified as an accomplice in a terrorist organisation," the leaflet said.
Israel has pounded Gaza with airstrikes since the Palestinian militant group Hamas launched a deadly attack on Israeli soil on Oct. 7. Israel has massed troops and armour on the border with Gaza ahead of an expected land incursion.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 23, 2023, 05:45:09 PM
I may have missed it, but Heisey didn't seem all that concerned about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
He just assumed everyone was on Putin's side.
Quote from: Jockey on October 23, 2023, 09:37:16 PM
He just assumed everyone was on Putin's side.
Given his staunch stance against the anti-semites here, I'm surprised he didn't start any threads condemning Tucker Carlson's anti-semitism
https://www.bnaibrith.org/jewish-groups-condemn-tucker-carlsons-description-of-ukrainian-president-zelensky/
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 06:18:33 AM
Given his staunch stance against the anti-semites here, I'm surprised he didn't start any threads condemning Tucker Carlson's anti-semitism
https://www.bnaibrith.org/jewish-groups-condemn-tucker-carlsons-description-of-ukrainian-president-zelensky/
Another hero to those who claim they never have and never will support anti-Semitism.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 06:18:33 AM
Given his staunch stance against the anti-semites here, I'm surprised he didn't start any threads condemning Tucker Carlson's anti-semitism
https://www.bnaibrith.org/jewish-groups-condemn-tucker-carlsons-description-of-ukrainian-president-zelensky/
The moderator that banned me called me a "douche canoe" already. I'll check with Rocky to see if these opinions are allowed.
Because only moderators and progressive-oriented posters can use mean and aggressive language.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 23, 2023, 08:17:46 AM
You were banned for a week for being a douche canoe. Keep it up.
I get it ... the abusive language that is constantly leveled at me is justified .... none of them are "douche canoes."
Quote from: MU82 on October 23, 2023, 10:53:39 AM
Heisy: "Jew-hater!"
Doc Dribble: "Ur nummburr 11, oona?"
Muggs: "It's unacceptable that you don't want to vaporize everybody."
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 23, 2023, 11:05:00 AM
lol accurate
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 08:22:02 AM
The moderator that banned me called me a "douche canoe" already. I'll check with Rocky to see if these opinions are allowed.
Because only moderators and progressive-oriented posters can use mean and aggressive language.
I get it ... the abusive language that is constantly leveled at me is justified .... none of them are "douche canoes."
The abusive, aggressive language leveled at you and others is most certainly not justified. It is mean and unnecessary.
Didn't see any snow in the forecast
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 08:22:02 AM
The moderator that banned me called me a "douche canoe" already. I'll check with Rocky to see if these opinions are allowed.
Because only moderators and progressive-oriented posters can use mean and aggressive language.
I get it ... the abusive language that is constantly leveled at me is justified .... none of them are "douche canoes."
Look, man, you used your forum to scream "Jew-hater!" at numerous Scoopers. I know you feel those very personal, serious attacks were justified, but they weren't. You're also the first to call out name-calling, unless you want to do it. Then I guess it's OK.
So clean up your own hate issues before accusing others ... and toughen up, kitten.
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2023, 08:51:54 AM
Look, man, you used your forum to scream "Jew-hater!" at numerous Scoopers. I know you feel those very personal, serious attacks were justified, but they weren't. You're also the first to call out name-calling, unless you want to do it. Then I guess it's OK.
So clean up your own hate issues before accusing others ... and toughen up, kitten.
So, my opinion of what abusive language to call out disagrees with your opinion of what abusive language needs to be called out.
Therefore, my job is to conform to your definition of abusive language.
Oh, and nice touch ending with more abusive language.
But wait, you don't define this as abusive, and since your definition is all that matters, it is not abusive.
Got it
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2023, 08:51:54 AM
and toughen up, kitten.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 08:55:21 AM
So, my opinion of what abusive language to call out disagrees with your opinion of what abusive language needs to be called out.
Therefore, my job is to conform to your definition of abusive language.
Oh, and nice touch ending with more abusive language.
But wait, you don't define this as abusive, and since your definition is all that matters, it is not abusive.
Got it
Tuckers anti-semitism needs to be called out. Trotting out those tropes to his vast audience only emboldens the anti-semites in his viewing audience. Between him and Elon Musk playing with these tropes, it's easy to see why anti-semitism is on the rise
Quote from: JWags85 on October 23, 2023, 12:24:57 PM
This isn't to "bothsiderism" the conversation, but this is totally a garbage byproduct of the "shoot first from the hip, think later" broad brushing that everyone seems to want to do, especially through the cloak of social media. Being racially insensitive (even if accidentally) makes someone a RACIST. Supporting a progressive viewpoint (even if they are very much moderate overall) makes someone WOKE. Any opposition or counter view point to anything makes someone "blank-phobic" or a socialist/communist.
So someone might not be naturally be Islamphobic but they see the radical voices in a dumb protest or stupid statement and broad brush everyone supporting Palestine or a Muslim who opposes the Israeli government as a Hamas-supporting/Jihad loving extremist, especially in the absence of a "normal" everyday Muslim they may know or be friends with, so now they slide in that direction.
Similarly, people lump all Jews in with Israel so if they don't know any Jewish people or affiliated voices, they cluster all Jewish/pro-Israel voices with Likud/Zionist extremism they see online and develop an anti-Semitic bias or viewpoint, aka find it easier to buy into "Jews run the world/media/finance" conspiracy BS.
I think back to when I didn't personally have an gay/lesbian friends in my 20s and found it much easier to be ambivalent about their issues/rights. Not so much against it but it was a much more sterile static perspective. Then one of my good friends came out and I started a job and became very close with another gay coworker and suddenly it became a much more human and nuanced discussion. And this is 15 years ago where I didn't have quite the pervasive and heavy influence of social media in solitary mental moments to color perspectives.
Great post. It also pairs very well with the sentiments in your previously well appreciated post, e.g. the rush to label anyone anti-x if they raise concerns against an element of group x. As an example some on here would rush to label someone an anti-semite, for being concerned about language coming from the extremists within the Likud party and their allies.
That's a political gripe, not a bias gripe, and one shared by many people within Israel.
But there is a fine line in differentiating whether a commentator or individual recognizes the different political viewpoints, and stances on this complicated issue throughout Israel, or whether they lump the entire population into believing the same thing as the extremists, or clearly recognize the different viewpoints within the group.
The same thing happens to Muslims around the world, and the Palestinians. Where many assume they automatically align with the extremists, when in reality...they are the extremist positions and the majority are just trying to survive.
Also, I appreciate your attempt at trying to keep this focused on a positive discussion of a complex issue.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 09:04:51 AM
Tuckers anti-semitism needs to be called out. Trotting out those tropes to his vast audience only emboldens the anti-semites in his viewing audience. Between him and Elon Musk playing with these tropes, it's easy to see why anti-semitism is on the rise
Elon is definitely one of Kitten's heroes, and he sure seemed to be pimping Tucker, too. Their anti-Semitism no matta - and you should know it, you effen Jew-hater!
The shame is that, in between all of his hate, vengeful vitriol, misinformation and refusal to consider how complex this issue is, Heisy does actually makes some good points. It's hard to find them, though, because his Joseph McCarthy act gets in the way.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 08:55:21 AM
So, my opinion of what abusive language to call out disagrees with your opinion of what abusive language needs to be called out.
Therefore, my job is to conform to your definition of abusive language.
Oh, and nice touch ending with more abusive language.
But wait, you don't define this as abusive, and since your definition is all that matters, it is not abusive.
Got it
Yes, me calling you "kitten" is the exact same as you accusing several of our fellow MU alums of being "Jew-haters."
No false equivalence there at all, kitten.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 08:22:02 AM
The moderator that banned me called me a "douche canoe" already. I'll check with Rocky to see if these opinions are allowed.
Because only moderators and progressive-oriented posters can use mean and aggressive language.
I get it ... the abusive language that is constantly leveled at me is justified .... none of them are "douche canoes."
1. You called multiple people anti-semites here. Repeatedly. If you think calling you a "douche canoe" once is the same thing that's a you problem.
2. Moderators can do what they want. You can leave if you don't like it.
3. You can nail yourself back up on your cross now.
Quote from: forgetful on October 24, 2023, 09:05:33 AM
Great post. It also pairs very well with the sentiments in your previously well appreciated post, e.g. the rush to label anyone anti-x if they raise concerns against an element of group x. As an example some on here would rush to label someone an anti-semite, for being concerned about language coming from the extremists within the Likud party and their allies.
That's a political gripe, not a bias gripe, and one shared by many people within Israel.
Israel formed a unity government after October 7. Benny Gantz is now part of the same government as Bibi. He agrees with Bibi.
So, who in Israel is disagreeing with Likud right now? They are all the same now.
The domestic divisions around the courts have all been pushed aside. They all have one focus and goal: the coming ground war.
Everything else is on hold and might be for a very long time.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 09:22:12 AM
Israel formed a unity government after October 7. Benny Gantz is now part of the same government as Bibi. He agrees with Bibi.
So, who in Israel is disagreeing with Likud right now? They are all the same now.
The domestic divisions around the courts have all been pushed aside. They all have one focus and goal: the coming ground war.
Everything else is on hold and might be for a very long time.
It had to be done, and I'm glad they did it. But it sure is convenient for Bibi.
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2023, 09:20:48 AM
Yes, me calling you "kitten" is the exact same as you accusing several of our fellow MU alums of being "Jew-haters."
No false equivalence there at all, kitten.
Man who calls others Jew-hating circle jerkers thinks being called "kitten" is beyond the pale.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 24, 2023, 09:21:26 AM
1. You called multiple people anti-semites here. Repeatedly. If you think calling you a "douche canoe" once is the same thing that's a you problem.
2. Moderators can do what they want. You can leave if you don't like it.
3. You can nail yourself back up on your cross now.
The automatic message that I was banned for a week referenced "moderator complaints." No moderator told me what line they think I crossed. Instead, I was called a "Douche Canoe" by a moderator.
What you wrote above is your assumption or what you want to believe. Unless ... you have some inside knowledge about banning posters, I'm not privy too.
Lastly, this is my point of view on why I was banned.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 22, 2023, 11:04:14 AM
I wrote this
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575613#msg1575613
The conceit that most of the pro-Palestinian crowd here has (Galway, Hards. 21jump, Jockey, Brew, etc) starts with the assumption that everyone thinks like them. They think everyone wants the same things they do.
They do not.
Palestinians want one thing: the slaughter and elimination of all Jews.
Lawdog responded
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575623#msg1575623
Ban this guy. This is such a horesh!t statement.
Brew also chimed in
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575649#msg1575649
This is all bigoted hateful nonsense. You don't have a goddamn clue what you are talking about. This is probably the most racist thing I've ever seen on this site, and that's saying something.
---
Right after this, I was banned for a week.
I'll let you figure out the motivation.
ADDED
In the ten days since this happened, how many "gas the Jews" and "river to the sea" chants has the world seen to make one think this is an entirely off-base statement?
Where are the Arab and Palestinian condemnation of October 7 and these statements in the last ten days?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 09:28:45 AM
Man who calls others Jew-hating circle jerkers thinks being called "kitten" is beyond the pale.
I assume you want me to stop being abusive, and you think this kind of language is constructive to that end.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 09:30:43 AM
The automatic message that I was banned for a week referenced "moderator complaints." No moderator told me what line they think I crossed. Instead, I was called a "Douche Canoe" by a moderator.
What you wrote above is your assumption or what you want to believe. Unless ... you have some inside knowledge about banning posters, I'm not privy too.
Lastly, this is my point of view on why I was banned.
I am guessing that you were banned for calling people anti-semites. Many people pointed out to you that it was unfair, yet you kept doing it. Mostly for attention seeking purposes I might add.
Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on October 24, 2023, 09:31:49 AM
I assume you want me to stop being abusive, and you think this kind of language is constructive to that end.
No, I don't care.
If you think calling people circle-jerking Jew haters makes you and your arguments more credible, go for it. But you're being hypocritical when you then whine about insults thrown your way.
Give Heisy a break. It's gotta be mentally exhausting to scream "Jew haters" while also being on the same side as Tuckems and the khaki-wearing, tiki torch-wielding, "Jews will not replace us!" very fine people.
Or maybe not. Cognitive dissonance and plain hypocrisy are features now, not bugs for that crowd.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 24, 2023, 09:44:35 AM
Give Heisy a break. It's gotta be mentally exhausting to scream "Jew haters" while also being on the same side as Tuckems and the khaki-wearing, tiki torch-wielding, "Jews will not replace us!" very fine people.
Or maybe not. Cognitive dissonance and plain hypocrisy are features now, not bugs for that crowd.
My abusive language is wrong, but your abusive language is acceptable ... from the guy who put me on ignore.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 23, 2023, 12:01:05 PM
I had to put Heisy and his 10,000 word essays on ignore, but he is still quoting zerohedge? LOL.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A13usaonutL._CLa%7C2140%2C2000%7C81wCiPLsxPL.png%7C0%2C0%2C2140%2C2000%2B0.0%2C0.0%2C2140.0%2C2000.0_AC_SX679_.png)
Never heard this term until this week. Thanks for increasing my vocabulary, scoop!
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 09:39:53 AM
No, I don't care.
If you think calling people circle-jerking Jew haters makes you and your arguments more credible, go for it. But you're being hypocritical when you then whine about insults thrown your way.
I stopped using circle jerk to describe this place months ago.
And show me where I said "jew hater"?
I do not recall using that term. And I certainly never used these two terms together.
Until you can show me where I said "Jew Hater" (and yes, I used anti-Semite, but that is not the term you accuse me of saying), it is all part of the abuse you constantly heap because I must be demonized and marginalized.
Like you said, you don't care. You think you are entirely justified to constantly attack me with whatever terms you want to accuse me of saying.
Because I'm the Douche Canoe
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 08:22:02 AM
The moderator that banned me called me a "douche canoe" already. I'll check with Rocky to see if these opinions are allowed.
Dear Douche Canoe, I see you've embraced it. Catchy, eh?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 24, 2023, 10:14:31 AM
Dear Douche Canoe, I see you've embraced it. Catchy, eh?
Yes, and I added Law Dog's picture as my Avatar.
Heisy has switched over to his Vivek personality
It would be funnier if Rocky had imposed it from on high.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 09:30:43 AM
The automatic message that I was banned for a week referenced "moderator complaints." No moderator told me what line they think I crossed. Instead, I was called a "Douche Canoe" by a moderator.
What you wrote above is your assumption or what you want to believe. Unless ... you have some inside knowledge about banning posters, I'm not privy too.
Lastly, this is my point of view on why I was banned.
People who don't learn are usually sent on a permanent vacation.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 10:13:02 AM
I stopped using circle jerk to describe this place months ago.
And show me where I said "jew hater"?
I do not recall using that term. And I certainly never used these two terms together.
Until you can show me where I said "Jew Hater" (and yes, I used anti-Semite, but that is not the term you accuse me of saying), it is all part of the abuse you constantly heap because I must be demonized and marginalized.
Like you said, you don't care. You think you are entirely justified to constantly attack me with whatever terms you want to accuse me of saying.
Because I'm the Douche Canoe
The difference between antisemitism and hating Jews is not a debate I expected to have today, and yet here we are.
Anyhow, here's how the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance and its 31 member countries - including the U.S. and Israel - defines antisemitism:
"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews."
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 10:13:02 AM
I stopped using circle jerk to describe this place months ago.
And show me where I said "jew hater"?
I do not recall using that term. And I certainly never used these two terms together.
Until you can show me where I said "Jew Hater" (and yes, I used anti-Semite, but that is not the term you accuse me of saying), it is all part of the abuse you constantly heap because I must be demonized and marginalized.
Like you said, you don't care. You think you are entirely justified to constantly attack me with whatever terms you want to accuse me of saying.
Because I'm the Douche Canoe
QuoteFor Galway, Hards, and the rest of the Jew-haters here ...
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575288#msg1575288
This is from the other topic (Backlash Coming) which was locked. Do you have a brain bleed you should be worried about, or do you just like to play fast and loose with facts?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 09:59:29 AM
My abusive language is wrong, but your abusive language is acceptable ... from the guy who put me on ignore.
(https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Bike-Fall.jpg)
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 24, 2023, 10:09:32 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A13usaonutL._CLa%7C2140%2C2000%7C81wCiPLsxPL.png%7C0%2C0%2C2140%2C2000%2B0.0%2C0.0%2C2140.0%2C2000.0_AC_SX679_.png)
Never heard this term until this week. Thanks for increasing my vocabulary, scoop!
I almost spit out my coffee!
Could someone please explain to me why the UN has lifted its ballistic missile embargo on Iran and we are just allowing this? What in the F is going on? Infuriating and totally inexcusable.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 24, 2023, 10:09:32 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A13usaonutL._CLa%7C2140%2C2000%7C81wCiPLsxPL.png%7C0%2C0%2C2140%2C2000%2B0.0%2C0.0%2C2140.0%2C2000.0_AC_SX679_.png)
Never heard this term until this week. Thanks for increasing my vocabulary, scoop!
If the douche fits, wear it
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 10:52:38 AM
Could someone please explain to me why the UN has lifted its ballistic missile embargo on Iran and we are just allowing this? What in the F is going on? Infuriating and totally inexcusable.
The expiration of the U.N. sanctions falls under a "sunset" clause of the defunct 2015 Iran nuclear deal, which gave Tehran relief from American, European Union and U.N. sanctions in exchange for limiting its nuclear program. Former U.S. President Donald Trump abandoned that deal in 2018 and restored U.S. on Iran sanctions.https://www.reuters.com/world/us-targets-iran-missile-drone-programs-un-measures-lapse-2023-10-18/
Was this about the same time the Trump adminiatration set up the $6 billion humanitarian aid fund for Iran?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 24, 2023, 10:40:22 AM
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575288#msg1575288
This is from the other topic (Backlash Coming) which was locked. Do you have a brain bleed you should be worried about, or do you just like to play fast and loose with facts?
Lol
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 24, 2023, 10:40:22 AM
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65081.msg1575288#msg1575288
This is from the other topic (Backlash Coming) which was locked. Do you have a brain bleed you should be worried about, or do you just like to play fast and loose with facts?
Thank you for pointing out the inappropriate/abusive language I used. It did not show up in a search earlier.
I apologize for saying this to you and as well as Galway.
----
And nice touch with your own shot of abusive language.
It is hard not to conclude that abusive language is indeed okay here. Just make sure you direct it to the viewpoint that you think deserves it.
Finally, please try to separate opinion from fact. If you disagree with my opinions, it is not "playing fast and loose with the facts." Your opinions do not make them the established "facts," and anyone with a different opinion does not have the wrong "facts."
Stay classy JESMU ... you want me to remain a "Douche Canoe" or tone it down?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 24, 2023, 01:17:27 PM
Lol
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 02:30:53 PM
Finally, please try to separate opinion from fact. If you disagree with my opinions, it is not "playing fast and loose with the facts." Your opinions do not make them the established "facts," and anyone with a different opinion does not have the wrong "facts."
Uh...he didn't disagree with your opinions. He disagreed with something you stated as a fact that wasn't.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 02:30:53 PM
Stay classy JESMU ... you want me to remain a "Douche Canoe" or tone it down?
I find that this bothers you so much to be incredibly funny.
October 24, 2023
Elite Universities Face Donor Revolt Over Mideast Conflict
Some wealthy alums say response to Hamas attacks was final straw after years of growing disenchantment
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/elite-universities-face-donor-revolt-over-mideast-conflict-6c93662f
Some say it was the final straw after years of growing disenchantment with the schools over what they see as a leftward political shift. Many big donors have announced plans to stop giving or said they are reconsidering future gifts.
The pullback could dent the finances of some universities that rely on big givers to fill their coffers. People giving $1 million or more made up less than 1% of donors but 57% of total donations across surveyed U.S. universities, according to a study by the Council for Advancement and Support of Education covering the fiscal year ended June 30, 2022.
----
On Monday, a group of prominent alumni including Mitt Romney and investors Seth Klarman and Bill Helman published an open letter to Harvard criticizing the school's leadership in what they described as an increasingly hostile environment for Harvard's Jewish students. The group outlined steps it said the school should take, such as restricting campus protests to enrolled students and creating and making mandatory a semester-long class on critical thinking and fact-finding. "We fear that history is on the verge of repeating itself," the letter said.
Penn faces perhaps the biggest donor revolt. Prominent alumni such as cosmetics tycoon Ronald Lauder and Apollo Global Management chief executive Marc Rowan had already clashed with the school last month when it hosted a Palestinian literary festival they believed showed the university was tolerant of antisemitism.
"When the university wants to say something, it knows how and it can say it forcefully," Rowan, chair of the board of advisers at Penn's Wharton School, told The Wall Street Journal. "And the university doesn't seem to be able to find its voice with respect to antisemitism." Rowan said he was disturbed when he saw Magill post about her dog on Instagram the weekend of the attacks.
He said the response to the Hamas attacks was a departure from the school's strong condemnations of the killing of George Floyd and the Supreme Court's overturning of Roe v. Wade.
Rowan, who has donated more than $50 million to Penn, has said he won't give more unless Magill and Board of Trustees Chair Scott Bok step down.
The university lost out on two donations worth more than $150 million combined in the past year over the school's policies, Rowan said.
Donors gave more than $1.5 billion to Penn the last two fiscal years ended in June, the school said. Annual distributions from Penn's $20.9 billion endowment provide 17% of the university's academic operating budget.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 24, 2023, 02:35:45 PM
Uh...he didn't disagree with your opinions. He disagreed with something you stated as a fact that wasn't.
I find that this bothers you so much to be incredibly funny.
Since you know what that fact was, please share it with the class.
The UN Secretary General is a fking clown and should be dismissed.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 02:39:34 PM
October 24, 2023
Elite Universities Face Donor Revolt Over Mideast Conflict
Some wealthy alums say response to Hamas attacks was final straw after years of growing disenchantment
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/elite-universities-face-donor-revolt-over-mideast-conflict-6c93662f
This is good.
We can only hope they redirect their giving to organizations through which it'll make a real difference in the lives of those in need, as opposed to further enriching already ultra-wealthy, elitist organizations.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 02:42:53 PM
The UN Secretary General is a fking clown and should be dismissed.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4272860-israel-un-chief-resignation-calls/
"Earlier Tuesday, Guterres gave a speech at the United Nations denouncing both Hamas and Israel for acts endangering civilians, saying that he is "deeply concerned" about the "clear violations of international humanitarian law" in the conflict.
"The protection of civilians is paramount in any armed conflict. Protecting civilians can never mean using them as human shields," he said, referring to Hamas.
"Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than 1 million people to evacuate to the south [of Gaza] where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel and then continuing to bomb the south itself," he continued, calling out the Israeli military.
"To ease epic suffering, make the delivery of aid easier and safer, and facilitate the release of hostages, I reiterate my appeal for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire," Guterres added.
Erdan MUGGSY took exception to Guterres' sentiments, saying he is "disconnected from reality."
Fixed the article for them
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 02:39:34 PM
October 24, 2023
Elite Universities Face Donor Revolt Over Mideast Conflict
Some wealthy alums say response to Hamas attacks was final straw after years of growing disenchantment
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/elite-universities-face-donor-revolt-over-mideast-conflict-6c93662f
Some say it was the final straw after years of growing disenchantment with the schools over what they see as a leftward political shift. Many big donors have announced plans to stop giving or said they are reconsidering future gifts.
The pullback could dent the finances of some universities that rely on big givers to fill their coffers. People giving $1 million or more made up less than 1% of donors but 57% of total donations across surveyed U.S. universities, according to a study by the Council for Advancement and Support of Education covering the fiscal year ended June 30, 2022.
----
On Monday, a group of prominent alumni including Mitt Romney and investors Seth Klarman and Bill Helman published an open letter to Harvard criticizing the school's leadership in what they described as an increasingly hostile environment for Harvard's Jewish students. The group outlined steps it said the school should take, such as restricting campus protests to enrolled students and creating and making mandatory a semester-long class on critical thinking and fact-finding. "We fear that history is on the verge of repeating itself," the letter said.
Penn faces perhaps the biggest donor revolt. Prominent alumni such as cosmetics tycoon Ronald Lauder and Apollo Global Management chief executive Marc Rowan had already clashed with the school last month when it hosted a Palestinian literary festival they believed showed the university was tolerant of antisemitism.
"When the university wants to say something, it knows how and it can say it forcefully," Rowan, chair of the board of advisers at Penn's Wharton School, told The Wall Street Journal. "And the university doesn't seem to be able to find its voice with respect to antisemitism." Rowan said he was disturbed when he saw Magill post about her dog on Instagram the weekend of the attacks.
He said the response to the Hamas attacks was a departure from the school's strong condemnations of the killing of George Floyd and the Supreme Court's overturning of Roe v. Wade.
Rowan, who has donated more than $50 million to Penn, has said he won't give more unless Magill and Board of Trustees Chair Scott Bok step down.
The university lost out on two donations worth more than $150 million combined in the past year over the school's policies, Rowan said.
Donors gave more than $1.5 billion to Penn the last two fiscal years ended in June, the school said. Annual distributions from Penn's $20.9 billion endowment provide 17% of the university's academic operating budget.
If only people would revolt against Tucker Carlson's anti-semitism. Instead, Elon Musk is giving him a platform from where he can dispense his anti-semitic views to his audience. Sadly, it's the same platform Ron DeSantis announced his bid for president. One wonders if DeSantis association with known anti-semites doomed his campaign from the start
Reako, just another example of you not knowing one thing of what you're talking about. Aka, throwin 'chit against da wall, toya, and tryin' ta get a rise outta folks, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 24, 2023, 03:38:14 PM
Reako, just another example of you not knowing one thing of what you're talking about. Aka, throwin 'chit against da wall, toya, and tryin' ta get a rise outta folks, aina?
Tucker isn't an anti-semite? Elon isn't? Huh. Their words and actions sure don't match that but you know best about these things
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 02:42:53 PM
The UN Secretary General is a fking clown and should be dismissed.
Nah, he should be introduced to darkness. No half measures!
As usual, your reaction is light years ahead of your understanding.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Tucker isn't an anti-semite? Elon isn't? Huh. Their words and actions sure don't match that but you know best about these things
George Soros is Jewish, but you couldn't tell by his actions, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 24, 2023, 02:58:48 PM
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4272860-israel-un-chief-resignation-calls/
"Earlier Tuesday, Guterres gave a speech at the United Nations denouncing both Hamas and Israel for acts endangering civilians, saying that he is "deeply concerned" about the "clear violations of international humanitarian law" in the conflict.
"The protection of civilians is paramount in any armed conflict. Protecting civilians can never mean using them as human shields," he said, referring to Hamas.
"Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than 1 million people to evacuate to the south [of Gaza] where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel and then continuing to bomb the south itself," he continued, calling out the Israeli military.
"To ease epic suffering, make the delivery of aid easier and safer, and facilitate the release of hostages, I reiterate my appeal for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire," Guterres added.
Erdan MUGGSY took exception to Guterres' sentiments, saying he is "disconnected from reality."
Fixed the article for them
He draws a moral equivalence between a brutal terrorist attack and a modern army, giving civilizations every opportunity to leave a war zone before a ground invasion.
Hamas did not give the Israelis they slaughtered any warning. They should not be equated like this.
----
And, the head of the UN is wrong on this:
"Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than 1 million people to evacuate to the south [of Gaza] where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel and then continuing to bomb the south itself," he continued, calling out the Israeli military.It is not the Israelis' job to provide the refugees comfort and shelter. It is the job of the Government of Gaza ... which would be Hamas.
The use of human shields is a war crime ... Geneva Convention Article 28
Hamas does this, not Isreal
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28
Geneva Convention Article 29 - If is the job of Hamas to move "protect persons" from a war zone. Not Isreal.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-29
When the ground war starts, a lot of civilians will die. All of them will be the responsibility of Hamas, and Hamas will be committing war against them, not Israel. When the ground war starts, mistakes will be made. Friendly fire casualty, errand ordinances, and plan bad intel. Think "fog of war."
These mistakes will result in the death of civilians, including women and children. These are not war crimes.
----
Also, in southern Gaza, Israel has not shut off the power and water.. They want civilians to move south and offer an incentive to move south.
Nine days ago
October 15, 2023
Israel says it is restarting water supply to southern Gaza Strip
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-it-is-restarting-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-strip/
Israel said on Sunday it was restarting the supply of water to parts of the Gaza Strip after shutting it off following Hamas's devastating terrorist infiltration on October 7, in which over 1,300 Israelis were killed.
Energy Minister Israel Katz confirmed the news in a statement, saying that water would begin to flow again to the southern portion of the narrow enclave — where Israel has urged residents to flee to in recent days.
"The decision to restart water to the south of the Gaza Strip was agreed upon between Prime Minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu and US President [Joe] Biden, and will push the civilian population to the southern [part of the] Strip," Katz said.
----
You left out this truly disgusting part of the speech, that the Israelis deserved it.
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1698160848-un-chief-says-hamas-massacre-didn-t-happen-in-a-vacuum
"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum," Guterres said. "The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."
Isreal is demanding that Antonio Guterres resign
Three hours ago
Israeli UN ambassador demands UN secretary-general resign after 'shocking' speech
https://www.foxnews.com/world/israeli-un-ambassador-demands-un-secretary-general-resign-shocking-speech
Israel's ambassador to the United Nations is ripping the "horrible views" that U.N. Secretary-General António Guterres expressed at a meeting of the Security Council on Tuesday and is calling for his resignation.
Ambassador Gilad Erdan described Guterres' remarks as "shocking" for stating that the Oct. 7 terror attacks on Israel by Hamas "did not happen in a vacuum" and that the "Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation."
"The shocking speech by the @UN Secretary-General at the Security Council meeting, while rockets are being fired at all of Israel, proved conclusively, beyond any doubt, that the Secretary-General is completely disconnected from the reality in our region and that he views the massacre committed by Nazi Hamas terrorists in a distorted and immoral manner," Erdan posted on X, formerly Twitter.
"His statement that, 'the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,' expressed an understanding for terrorism and murder. It's really unfathomabale (sic). It's truly sad that the head of an organization that arose after the Holocaust holds such horrible views. A tragedy!"
----
PLM - take another stab at it. Tell me why this was a good speech. What did you like about it. What should we think about you for defending it?
To the point ... explain why it is "connected to reality?"
ADDED LATERTo the person that has me on ignore ... explain to me like I'm a "douche canoe" what part of the reaction was light years ahead of understanding.
Should Antonio Guterres resign? If not, why not? Tell me why you do not have a problem with it.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 24, 2023, 03:50:27 PM
Nah, he should be introduced to darkness. No half measures!
As usual, your reaction is light years ahead of your understanding.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 24, 2023, 04:06:21 PM
George Soros is Jewish, but you couldn't tell by his actions, hey?
No, but he might have a chance to be Speaker
A 2016 tweet from the late comedian Norm McDonald is going viral again.
It is a good 140-character summation of the attitude around here.
https://x.com/normmacdonald/status/809637479674281984?s=20
What terrifies me is if ISIS were to detonate a nuclear device and kill 50 million Americans. Imagine the backlash against peaceful Muslims?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 04:17:40 PM
A 2016 tweet from the late comedian Norm McDonald is going viral again.
It is a good 140-character summation of the attitude around here.
https://x.com/normmacdonald/status/809637479674281984?s=20
What terrifies me is if ISIS were to detonate a nuclear device and kill 50 million Americans. Imagine the backlash against peaceful Muslims?
It isn't.
Expectations are high that conflict spreads when the ground war begins, US personnel will get attacked.
I'll repeat: everything said until now is the pre-game. When the ground war starts ....
---
Yonatan Touval is from Mitvim, The Israeli Institute for Regional Foreign Policies
@Yonatan_Touval
#UPDATE: US official confirms to me that key reason for IDF ground invasion delay is US request to complete preps for broader conflict.
Preps incl deployment of THAAD and Patriot air defense systems in Gulf (poss also Jordan + northern Iraq) and arrival of USS Ike + 2k marines.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 04:06:29 PM
He draws a moral equivalence between a brutal terrorist attack and a modern army, giving civilizations every opportunity to leave a war zone before a ground invasion.
Hamas did not give the Israelis they slaughtered any warning. They should not be equated like this.
----
And, the head of the UN is wrong on this:
"Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than 1 million people to evacuate to the south [of Gaza] where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel and then continuing to bomb the south itself," he continued, calling out the Israeli military.
It is not the Israelis' job to provide the refugees comfort and shelter. It is the job of the Government of Gaza ... which would be Hamas.
The use of human shields is a war crime ... Geneva Convention Article 28
Hamas does this, not Isreal
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28
Geneva Convention Article 29 - If is the job of Hamas to move "protect persons" from a war zone. Not Isreal.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-29
When the ground war starts, a lot of civilians will die. All of them will be the responsibility of Hamas, and Hamas will be committing war against them, not Israel. When the ground war starts, mistakes will be made. Friendly fire casualty, errand ordinances, and plan bad intel. Think "fog of war."
These mistakes will result in the death of civilians, including women and children. These are not war crimes.
----
Also, in southern Gaza, Israel has not shut off the power and water.. They want civilians to move south and offer an incentive to move south.
Nine days ago
October 15, 2023
Israel says it is restarting water supply to southern Gaza Strip
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-says-it-is-restarting-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-strip/
Israel said on Sunday it was restarting the supply of water to parts of the Gaza Strip after shutting it off following Hamas's devastating terrorist infiltration on October 7, in which over 1,300 Israelis were killed.
Energy Minister Israel Katz confirmed the news in a statement, saying that water would begin to flow again to the southern portion of the narrow enclave — where Israel has urged residents to flee to in recent days.
"The decision to restart water to the south of the Gaza Strip was agreed upon between Prime Minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu and US President [Joe] Biden, and will push the civilian population to the southern [part of the] Strip," Katz said.
----
You left out this truly disgusting part of the speech, that the Israelis deserved it.
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1698160848-un-chief-says-hamas-massacre-didn-t-happen-in-a-vacuum
"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum," Guterres said. "The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."
Isreal is demanding that Antonio Guterres resign
Three hours ago
Israeli UN ambassador demands UN secretary-general resign after 'shocking' speech
https://www.foxnews.com/world/israeli-un-ambassador-demands-un-secretary-general-resign-shocking-speech
Israel's ambassador to the United Nations is ripping the "horrible views" that U.N. Secretary-General António Guterres expressed at a meeting of the Security Council on Tuesday and is calling for his resignation.
Ambassador Gilad Erdan described Guterres' remarks as "shocking" for stating that the Oct. 7 terror attacks on Israel by Hamas "did not happen in a vacuum" and that the "Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation."
"The shocking speech by the @UN Secretary-General at the Security Council meeting, while rockets are being fired at all of Israel, proved conclusively, beyond any doubt, that the Secretary-General is completely disconnected from the reality in our region and that he views the massacre committed by Nazi Hamas terrorists in a distorted and immoral manner," Erdan posted on X, formerly Twitter.
"His statement that, 'the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,' expressed an understanding for terrorism and murder. It's really unfathomabale (sic). It's truly sad that the head of an organization that arose after the Holocaust holds such horrible views. A tragedy!"
----
PLM - take another stab at it. Tell me why this was a good speech. What did you like about it. What should we think about you for defending it?
To the point ... explain why it is "connected to reality?"
ADDED LATER
To the person that has me on ignore ... explain to me like I'm a "douche canoe" what part of the reaction was light years ahead of understanding.
Should Antonio Guterres resign? If not, why not? Tell me why you do not have a problem with it.
I know you think the Israeli government is blameless in all facets. I also know that you believe in collective punishment as long as it's being directed to the people you think "deserve it".
You don't need to write novels in response to every post here when it's the same thing over and over. Your position on this is quite clear.
And you're also definitely not mad online about being called a Douche Canoe.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjnkcR0XgAUW5gD.jpg)
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 04:17:40 PM
A 2016 tweet from the late comedian Norm McDonald is going viral again.
It is a good 140-character summation of the attitude around here.
https://x.com/normmacdonald/status/809637479674281984?s=20
What terrifies me is if ISIS were to detonate a nuclear device and kill 50 million Americans. Imagine the backlash against peaceful Muslims?
Norm is on my Mt Rushmore of comedians. He's very much missed. His "shtick" was better than Rico's.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2023, 04:28:22 PM
Norm is on my Mt Rushmore of comedians. He's very much missed. His "shtick" was better than Rico's.
He was great. I miss him greatly.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Tucker isn't an anti-semite? Elon isn't? Huh. Their words and actions sure don't match that but you know best about these things
Tucker and Ben are fighting.
Awaiting word from Mark Levin on what I should think about all this.
https://www.mediaite.com/news/ben-shapiro-unloads-on-tucker-carlson-over-bizarre-and-ugly-take-on-israel-hamas-war-not-a-conservative-position/
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 24, 2023, 04:27:05 PM
I know you think the Israeli government is blameless in all facets. I also know that you believe in collective punishment as long as it's being directed to the people you think "deserve it".
You don't need to write novels in response to every post here when it's the same thing over and over. Your position on this is quite clear.
And you're also definitely not mad online about being called a Douche Canoe.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjnkcR0XgAUW5gD.jpg)
I've said you have to pick a side. It is critically important for the West that Israel prevail. Fortunately, most of Congress and President Biden see this. Im heartened that Biden told Bibi last week, "I am a Zionist."
And whatever sins Israel committed pale in comparison to the Palastestian sins.
I see no moral equivalency, as you are doing, yet again, above.
I do not understand why you feel it necessary to defend a bunch of terrorists (Hamas is a designated terrorist group, as is Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which also operates in Gaza).
Before you try to separate the Palestinian people from Hamas, please show me the list of Palestinian organizations that condemned what Hamas did. Show the examples of Palestinians protesting that Hamas does not represent them. Show us where Palestinians apologized to Israel.
Until I see this is force, yes ... I see no difference between the two. (to be clear, when I see real distancing of Palestinian people from their terrorist organizations, I will treat them differently).
Like we saw no difference between the Germans and the Nazis.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 04:34:25 PM
Tucker and Ben are fighting.
Awaiting word from Mark Levin on what I should think about all this.
https://www.mediaite.com/news/ben-shapiro-unloads-on-tucker-carlson-over-bizarre-and-ugly-take-on-israel-hamas-war-not-a-conservative-position/
What's John Bolton up to
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 04:34:25 PM
Tucker and Ben are fighting.
Awaiting word from Mark Levin on what I should think about all this.
https://www.mediaite.com/news/ben-shapiro-unloads-on-tucker-carlson-over-bizarre-and-ugly-take-on-israel-hamas-war-not-a-conservative-position/
Huh. Quite the words from Ben Shapiro. He's living in la-la land it sounds like. And Tucker is even more clearly anti-semitic bringing on someone like that promoting the idea of Israel money being behind the reason America politicians are supporting Israel.
The problem, of course, is the far reach of Scoop's wild anti-semitism
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 04:38:58 PM
I've said you have to pick a side. It is critically important for the West that Israel prevail. Fortunately, most of Congress and President Biden see this. Im heartened that Biden told Bibi last week, "I am a Zionist."
And whatever sins Israel committed pale in comparison to the Palastestian sins.
I see no moral equivalency, as you are doing, yet again, above.
I do not understand why you feel it necessary to defend a bunch of terrorists (Hamas is a designated terrorist group as if Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which also operates in Gaza, is also a designated terrorist group).
Before you try to separate the Palestinian people from Hamas, please show me the list of Palestinian organizations that condemned what Hamas did. Show the examples of Palestinians protesting that Hamas does not represent them. So we where Palestinians apologized to Israel.
Until I see this is force, yes ... I see no difference between the two. (to be clear, when I see real distancing of Palestinian people from their terrorist organizations, I will rest them differently).
Like we saw no difference between the Germans and the Nazis.
Goodness you are boring. Find a new Schtick
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 24, 2023, 04:41:15 PM
Goodness you are boring. Find a new Schtick
These are critically important questions. You staked out a position. You choose to comment here.
I challenged it. And when challenged, you find it boring????
----
(All this is done without abusive language ... this new Douche Canoe persona is growing on me! I do agree this style is wordier. Abusive language is shorter and more direct.)
H20
You mention that we have to pick sides. I realize I might be stepping in it here and perhaps be labeled a simpleton, but I'm going to ask anyway.
What are the sides? How do you define the sides?
You don't have to pick a side.
The world isn't black and white.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 04:47:05 PM
Douche Canoe, I'm glad you finally got rid of your Heisenberg username. It was embarrassing for you to be in here calling people anti-semites while branding yourself after a literal nazi.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 24, 2023, 05:54:06 PM
You don't have to pick a side.
The world isn't black and white.
You especially don't have to pick a side between the two
Heisey Douchey is offering as the only options.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 24, 2023, 02:58:48 PM
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4272860-israel-un-chief-resignation-calls/
"Earlier Tuesday, Guterres gave a speech at the United Nations denouncing both Hamas and Israel for acts endangering civilians, saying that he is "deeply concerned" about the "clear violations of international humanitarian law" in the conflict.
"The protection of civilians is paramount in any armed conflict. Protecting civilians can never mean using them as human shields," he said, referring to Hamas.
"Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than 1 million people to evacuate to the south [of Gaza] where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel and then continuing to bomb the south itself," he continued, calling out the Israeli military.
"To ease epic suffering, make the delivery of aid easier and safer, and facilitate the release of hostages, I reiterate my appeal for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire," Guterres added.
Erdan MUGGSY took exception to Guterres' sentiments, saying he is "disconnected from reality."
Fixed the article for them
Clown. #Fking Clown who should be terminated from his job immediately.
Stop bullying Heisy. Especially when all of you refuse to rebut his actual points. We have seen how ubiquitous antisemitism is today and it's off the charts inexcusable. What the F is going on at our Colleges/Universities? Most of you sound kind Greta Thunberg. Wake up!
Choose your wording more carefully.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 06:56:01 PM
Stop bullying Heisy. Especially when all of you refuse to rebut his actual points. We have seen how ubiquitous antisemitism is today and it's off the charts inexcusable. What the F is going on at our Colleges/Universities? Most of you sound kind Greta Thunberg. Wake up!
What's going on with Tucker Carlson and his anti-semitism? Wake up!
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 07:04:18 PM
What's going on with Tucker Carlson and his anti-semitism? Wake up!
I have no idea and don't listen to the guy. When have I defended Tucker Carlson?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 06:34:37 PM
You especially don't have to pick a side between the two Heisey Douchey is offering as the only options.
I'm interested in how he defines the sides he says we need to choose between, perhaps it will shed some light on what's most important to him.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 06:56:01 PM
Stop bullying Heisy. Especially when all of you refuse to rebut his actual points. We have seen how ubiquitous antisemitism is today and it's off the charts inexcusable. What the F is going on at our Colleges/Universities? Most of you sound kind Greta Thunberg. Wake up!
Why did you choose Thunberg?
I agree, stop the bullying.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 07:06:28 PM
I have no idea and don't listen to the guy. When have I defended Tucker Carlson?
I don't pay attention to what's happening at universities yet I'm being yelled at that I should. From what I've read in the "Israel is at war" thread, it sure seems like it's one of biggest issues in the war.
Wen ya got da facts on your side, argue da facts. Wen ya got da law on your side, argue da law. Wen ya got neither, start bullyin', aina?
And right now Heisie and Muggsy are attempting to bully.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 24, 2023, 07:13:52 PM
Wen ya got da facts on your side, argue da facts. Wen ya got da law on your side, argue da law. Wen ya got neither, start bullyin', aina?
.
Hot take from the guy who calls anyone who disagrees with him an antisemite.
At least ya got company, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 24, 2023, 07:19:24 PM
At least ya got company, aina?
He doesn't keep company with Tucker Carlson
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2023, 07:15:14 PM
And right now Heisie and Muggsy are attempting to bully.
Not at all. You just created a narrative.
Heisy has a right to share his views. It's that simple.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 07:21:02 PM
Not at all. You just created a narrative.
Heisy has a right to share his views. It's that simple.
Huh, what an idea
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 07:21:02 PM
Not at all. You just created a narrative.
Heisy has a right to share his views. It's that simple.
While you are correct that H20 has the right to share his views and it is in fact that simple, you're being disingenuous here. You have done your fair share of bullying, most certainly to me. It doesn't bother me other than it just perpetuates a dismissive, hateful, and mean culture, however, be honest about it and move on from it.
After this thread I'm not hiring any more MU grads.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 24, 2023, 05:45:45 PM
H20
You mention that we have to pick sides. I realize I might be stepping in it here and perhaps be labeled a simpleton, but I'm going to ask anyway.
What are the sides? How do you define the sides?
Does this help?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 21, 2023, 01:50:13 PM
I did not say both sides had to eliminate each other. I said the way to get peace, as it has been throughout human history, is for one side to win an unconditional surrender over the other.
What is happening now, the status quo, is both sides eliminating each other.
Why did we nuke Japan twice and instantly kill over 100,000 innocent Japanese civilians? Was that a war crime? I do not recall seeing Truman in the Hague being prosecuted.
It was done because it was a message to tell the Japanese to stop. They did, and unconditional surrender was signed on the Missouri a month later.
So why were over 100,000 civilians killed to get the Japanese to stop? The estimates were between one and two million would have been killed attacking the Japanese Mainland. So, this was the least bad option.
Similarly, CNN is reporting the ground war is imminent. The fight has broken out on the Isreal-Lebanon border. It is about to get ugly real fast.
I see what is about to happen as the least bad option. So does President Biden and the European leaders that green-lighted Israel's right to defend itself.
These world leaders knew what was about to happen. Question: Are all of you who say Israel has the right to defend itself that what is about to happen okay?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 07:28:05 PM
Does this help?
Not particularly. What are the sides you're specifically talking about and asking people to choose between?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 07:21:02 PM
Not at all. You just created a narrative.
Heisy has a right to share his views. It's that simple.
Muggsy, a few posts ago you made a post that can be interpreted as a call for the president of the UN to be killed. You're not well.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 06:34:37 PM
You especially don't have to pick a side between the two Heisey Douchey is offering as the only options.
Hey, hey, hey .. douchey implies I might be a douche.
I'm the whole f-ing Canoe!
And don't you ever forget it!!
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2023, 07:30:17 PM
Muggsy, a few posts ago you made a post that can be interpreted as a call for the president of the UN to be killed. You're not well.
I said he should be dismissed from his post and he absolutely should be.
You said terminated. There is a substantive difference.
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2023, 07:36:50 PM
You said terminated. There is a substantive difference.
I meant from his job.
Then go back and change it like I suggested. Because that wording in the wrong context to the wrong audience could ultimately cause you stress.
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2023, 07:42:19 PM
Then go back and change it like I suggested. Because that wording in the wrong context to the wrong audience could ultimately cause you stress.
Terminated doesn't mean darkness Tower in that context. Calm down.
Based on all your other posts in this thread? An easy mistake to make.
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2023, 07:45:17 PM
Based on all your other posts in this thread? An easy mistake to make.
Fine. I will change it if it makes you happy. Do you think what he said was worthy of being fired?
No. Calling for a ceasefire is not a fireable offense. From a UN perspective, it is an obligation.
The question you need to ask before you lose your mind is whether I agree with him. And my answer to that is no. Not yet.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 24, 2023, 07:27:41 PM
After this thread I'm not hiring any more MU grads.
Many soon-to-be Harvard grads who signed a letter a few weeks ago are looking for employment opportunities.
https://themessenger.com/news/white-shoe-law-firm-pulls-job-offers-for-3-ivy-leaguers-over-israel-letters
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 24, 2023, 07:27:41 PM
After this thread I'm not hiring any more MU grads.
You almost made me do a spit take with my iced tea. Nice!
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 07:54:26 PM
Many soon-to-be Harvard grads who signed a letter a few weeks ago are looking for employment opportunities.
https://themessenger.com/news/white-shoe-law-firm-pulls-job-offers-for-3-ivy-leaguers-over-israel-letters
They can get jobs with Elon or Tucker. They'll be fine
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2023, 07:54:34 PM
You almost made me do a spit take with my iced tea. Nice!
Yeah, this.thread is devolving pretty quickly.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 07:31:54 PM
Hey, hey, hey .. douchey implies I might be a douche.
I'm the whole f-ing Canoe!
And don't you ever forget it!!
We have all known it for a very long time. Just a dumber version of chicos.
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2023, 07:53:34 PM
No. Calling for a ceasefire is not a fireable offense. From a UN perspective, it is an obligation.
The question you need to ask before you lose your mind is whether I agree with him. And my answer to that is no. Not yet.
I vehemently disagree with you and most of tbe echo chamber here. Remember this was a ignominious attack on civilians that proportionally would be like 37K Americans slaughtered. In their homes Tower and at a concert. Hamas is the absolute scum of the earth, and stating there was even an infinitesimal justification for what they did is ridiculous and embarrassing. The UN is a joke and have condemned Israel more than the entire terrorist world combined. Inexcusable.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:01:01 PM
I vehemently disagree with you and most of tbe echo chamber here. Remember this was a ignominious attack on civilians that proportionally would be like 37K Americans slaughtered. In their homes Tower and at a concert. Hamas is the absolute scum of the earth, and stating there was even an infinitesimal justification for what they did is ridiculous and embarrassing. The UN is a joke and have condemned Israel more than the entire terrorist world combined. Inexcusable.
Why can't Tower have an opinion? Heisy can yet you immediately attack Tower for not agreeing with you and the "echo chamber"
I worry when Muggsy agrees with me. I am amused and relieved he is trying and failing to bully me. And irony and nuance have long been lost on him
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 08:05:35 PM
Why can't Tower have an opinion? Heisy can yet you immediately attack Tower for not agreeing with you and the "echo chamber"
You sound absurd Reeko. Of course Tower can have an opinion. Stop conjuring things out of thin air and pretending like you're a contemporary Oscar Wilde. You're not.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:08:33 PM
You sound absurd Reeko. Of course Tower can have an opinion. Stop conjuring things out of thin air and pretending like you're a contemporary Oscar Wilde. You're not.
You said Heisy has a right to share his opinion and not to bully yet you get furious at anyone that doesn't agree with you, whether here or elsewhere.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 08:14:12 PM
You said Heisy has a right to share his opinion and not to bully yet you get furious at anyone that doesn't agree with you, whether here or elsewhere.
Getting "furious" is totally irrelevant. Never have I suggested that people shouldn't share their opinions.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:01:01 PM
Remember this was a ignominious attack on civilians that proportionally would be like 37K Americans slaughtered.
This isn't how human lives work.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:15:25 PM
Getting "furious" is totally irrelevant. Never have I suggested that people shouldn't share their opinions.
Then why do you care what the "echo chamber" says? None of the "echo chamber" or what happens on college campuses is changing what Israel will do in the coming days
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 08:19:39 PM
Then why do you care what the "echo chamber" says? None of the "echo chamber" or what happens on college campuses is changing what Israel will do in the coming days
True. I care because it suggests people aren't paying attention to reality.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:22:29 PM
True. I care because it suggests people aren't paying attention to reality.
Reality is, what you want, what any of us want, isn't going to happen. What's going to happen isn't going to satisfy anyone
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 08:25:58 PM
Reality is, what you want, what any of us want, isn't going to happen. What's going to happen isn't going to satisfy anyone
I'll concede part of your point. My hopes will likely not happen.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:28:18 PM
I'll concede part of your point. My hopes will likely not happen.
Neither will mine, but I blame Hamas for that and no one else
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2023, 08:25:58 PM
Reality is, what you want, what any of us want, isn't going to happen. What's going to happen isn't going to satisfy anyone
you lack faith in the power of MUScoop
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:28:18 PM
I'll concede part of your point. My hopes will likely not happen.
It's beyond bizarre that you are actively hoping for thousands and thousands of deaths.
If anyone is interested in a refresher on the history and competing Palestinian and Israeli territorial claims to the West Bank and Gaza, History Hit with Dan Snow did a great 70 minute podcast last week. Very straightforward, "just the facts" presentation, interspersed with interviews with a policy analyst at a Palestinian think tank and a professor at Ben Gurion University.
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2023, 07:53:34 PM
No. Calling for a ceasefire is not a fireable offense. From a UN perspective, it is an obligation.
The question you need to ask before you lose your mind is whether I agree with him. And my answer to that is no. Not yet.
How about this? He said Israel deserved it. Does this get you to "Yet?"
(Isreal called on him to resign)
---
"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 09:45:47 PM
How about this? He said Israel deserved it. Does this get you to "Yet?"
(Isreal called on him to resign)
---
"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."
Reads like a pretty rational statement from a leader promoting peace amongst nations.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 09:45:47 PM
How about this? He said Israel deserved it. Does this get you to "Yet?"
(Isreal called on him to resign)
---
"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."
No, he didn't say Israel deserved iI. That's a lie.
And nothing in that quote is false.
Quote from: 🏀 on October 24, 2023, 09:48:35 PM
Reads like a pretty rational statement from a leader promoting peace amongst nations.
Are you also saying Israel deserves it?
Should we have applied this same logic to Al Queda three weeks after 9/11?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on October 24, 2023, 09:00:56 PM
It's beyond bizarre that you are actively hoping for thousands and thousands of deaths.
I've stated specifically the scumbags that deserve immediate darkness. I have not stated that we should target innocent people. Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the Supreme Leader and Mullahs are thousands of people. If you object to dropping the hammer on all of them we will agree to disagree.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 09:54:56 PM
No, he didn't say Israel deserved iI. That's a lie.
And nothing in that quote is false.
That is your opinion based on how you want to read it.
An opinion cannot lie unless you start with the idea that your personal opinions should be accepted facts based on the idea that it is the only one way to interpret things. So, all alternative ideas are wrong (or lies).
Others disagree with your opinions and think it was not a helpful speech.
----
Tensions flared quickly at a special meeting of the United Nations Security Council, with Israel's foreign minister firing back after U.N. Secretary-General António Guterres described "clear violations of international humanitarian law" and called for a cease-fire to address humanitarian needs of the Palestinian people.
"Mr. Secretary-General, in what world do you live? Definitely this is not our world," Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen said, holding up photos of children kidnapped by Hamas. "How you can agree to a cease-fire when someone swore to kill and destroy your existence?"
Cohen thanked President Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken for standing with Israel.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 09:54:56 PM
No, he didn't say Israel deserved iI. That's a lie.
And nothing in that quote is false.
Is Douchey playing "fast and loose" with the truth again? Surprising.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 09:54:56 PM
No, he didn't say Israel deserved iI. That's a lie.
And nothing in that quote is false.
This is false
The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. Israel evacuated all settlements and military forces from the Gaza Strip under the 2005 Disengagement. It has maintained a tight blockade of the territory since Hamas took control in 2007,
as has Egypt, with Jerusalem saying it must do so to limit the terror group's ability to arm itself for attacks.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 10:00:11 PM
I've stated specifically the scumbags that deserve immediate darkness. I have not stated that we should target innocent people. Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the Supreme Leader and Mullahs are thousands of people. If you object to dropping the hammer on all of them we will agree to disagree.
Yeah, that's how nuclear bombs work, they only target the bad guys. Then all the innocent people come out of their shelters unscathed, thank you with tears in their eyes, and offer you their oilfields.
QuoteThat is your opinion based on how you want to read it
No, it's a fact. He did not say the words you claim he did, or anything close to it. You lied. In fact, what he did say - and what you conveniently left out - was:
"I have condemned unequivocally the horrifying and unprecedented 7 October acts of terror by Hamas in Israel.
Nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians – or the launching of rockets against civilian targets."https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-24/secretary-generals-remarks-the-security-council-the-middle-east%C2%A0
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 09:45:47 PM
He said Israel deserved it.
He didn't say Israel deserved it.
You, on the other hand, did call Scoopers "Jew haters."
You see the "truth" you want to see.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 24, 2023, 10:08:58 PM
Yeah, that's how nuclear bombs work, they only target the bad guys. Then all the innocent people come out of their shelters unscathed, thank you with tears in their eyes, and offer you their oilfields.
I never wrote we should nuke them. What I did say is I wasn't against the option if need be. In that scenario yes, there would be innocent lives lost. I believe we could accomplish important goals without going the nuclear route. I don't like these people TSmith and feel strongly they should no longer be among us.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 10:18:40 PM
I never wrote we should nuke them. What I did say is I wasn't against the option if need be. In that scenario yes, there would be innocent lives lost. I believe we could accomplish important goals without going the nuclear route. I don't like these people TSmith and feel strongly they should no longer be among us.
Please tell me you understand how nuclear weapons work. Please tell me you understand that any nuke deployed anywhere in the Middle East will affect the entire Middle East, including Israel.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 09:55:37 PM
Are you also saying Israel deserves it?
Should we have applied this same logic to Al Queda three weeks after 9/11?
Vacuum, meet silo.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2023, 10:16:28 PM
No, it's a fact. He did not say the words you claim he did, or anything close to it. You lied. In fact, what he did say - and what you conveniently left out - was:
"I have condemned unequivocally the horrifying and unprecedented 7 October acts of terror by Hamas in Israel.
Nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians – or the launching of rockets against civilian targets."
https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-24/secretary-generals-remarks-the-security-council-the-middle-east%C2%A0
Yeah bad But ...
Hamas is bad ... BUT ... let's spend 62 pages on Israel and not why Hamas has to pay and pay hard. One poster does not think this is a war for the existence of Israel. He claims they are overreacting by creating a unity Government. And the Israeli population is way overreacting to what should be a simple police action against a few bad guys.
Hamas is bad BUT ... this has to be in context, not that Hamas is committing war crimes on its people (human shields and not letting them evacuate a war zone). That Hamas provoked this action and they are fully responsible for the coming ground war.
Hamas is bad BUT ... they are not the Palestinian people, even though we cannot find any Palestinian people or their organizations condemning what Hamas did. In fact, we get the opposite: celebration and calls to kill more Jews.
----
There should be no moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians until the Palestinian people start to distance themselves from their terrorist organization and stop calling for killing the Jews.
The Israelis should view the Palestinians and Hamas like we viewed Germans/Nazis in 1944. (meaning they are the same.)
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 07:53:45 AM
Yeah bad But ...
Hamas is bad ... BUT ... let's spend 62 pages on Israel and not why Hamas has to pay and pay hard. One poster does not think this is a war for the existence of Israel. He claims they are overreacting by creating a unity Government. And the Israeli population is way overreacting to what should be a simple police action against a few bad guys.
Hamas is bad BUT ... this has to be in context, not that Hamas is committing war crimes on its people (human shields and not letting them evacuate a war zone). That Hamas provoked this action and they are fully responsible for the coming ground war.
Hamas is bad BUT ... they are not the Palestinian people, even though we cannot find any Palestinian people or their organizations condemning what Hamas did. In fact, we get the opposite: celebration and calls to kill more Jews.
----
There should be no moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians until the Palestinian people start to distance themselves from their terrorist organization and stop calling for killing the Jews.
The Israelis should view the Palestinians and Hamas like we viewed Germans/Nazis in 1944. (meaning they are the same.)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/7Eipor01ypMm3LeG4v/giphy.gif)
Quote from: 🏀 on October 25, 2023, 07:57:27 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/7Eipor01ypMm3LeG4v/giphy.gif)
Yeah no sh*t right?
Dude builds strawmen arguments constantly, even like the one above, and then gets all indignant when people say "hey that's a strawman."
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 07:53:45 AM
Yeah bad But ...
Hamas is bad ... BUT ... let's spend 62 pages on Israel and not why Hamas has to pay and pay hard. One poster does not think this is a war for the existence of Israel. He claims they are overreacting by creating a unity Government. And the Israeli population is way overreacting to what should be a simple police action against a few bad guys.
Hamas is bad BUT ... this has to be in context, not that Hamas is committing war crimes on its people (human shields and not letting them evacuate a war zone). That Hamas provoked this action and they are fully responsible for the coming ground war.
Hamas is bad BUT ... they are not the Palestinian people, even though we cannot find any Palestinian people or their organizations condemning what Hamas did. In fact, we get the opposite: celebration and calls to kill more Jews.
----
There should be no moral equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians until the Palestinian people start to distance themselves from their terrorist organization and stop calling for killing the Jews.
The Israelis should view the Palestinians and Hamas like we viewed Germans/Nazis in 1944. (meaning they are the same.)
Which poster said the bolded?
And for the bolded+itallicized. There are a ton of them. No one is rushing to put them on television, and many of them are simply trying not to die right now. And many others are just preoccupied with trying to bring attention to their friends and family that are dying in droves, mostly children (getting close to 3000 dead children now), for simply being Palestinian.
Well, I said this is not a war for the existence of Israel. But I never said anything about a unity government or said that it should be a simple police action.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 25, 2023, 08:38:28 AM
Well, I said this is not a war for the existence of Israel. But I never said anything about a unity government or said that it should be a simple police action.
I probably said its a police action and that I find the "war" label problematic when applied to anything but military conflicts between nation-states. But that in no way infers anything about "simplicity" or "overreaction."
Sounds like DC is using Dodd's blender to make his point.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 25, 2023, 08:38:28 AM
Well, I said this is not a war for the existence of Israel. But I never said anything about a unity government or said that it should be a simple police action.
Your basic premise is totally wrong. Shows complete ignorance and denial of the threat by the surrounding Arab nations to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, aina?
#from the river to the sea
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 25, 2023, 09:17:49 AM
Your basic premise is totally wrong. Shows complete ignorance and denial of the threat by the surrounding Arab nations to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, aina?
#from the river to the sea
Which surrounding Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 25, 2023, 09:17:49 AM
Your basic premise is totally wrong. Shows complete ignorance and denial of the threat by the surrounding Arab nations to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, aina?
#from the river to the sea
You mean the Arab nations like Jordan, Egypt and the UAE that have signed peace/normalization treaties with Israel? And Saudi Arabia who was considering doing the same thing just weeks ago?
Y'all are acting like its still the 1960s and 70s. It isn't. Iran (which not Arab BTW) has been fighting with Saudi Arabia for dominance in the region is trying to break apart a potential alliance with Israel. There is NO coincidence that this occurred just after rumors of such an agreement started percolating.
This will not become a broader war with other Arab nations. They want nothing to do with this except use words - which could always change if Israel overreacts by the way. This is about Israel fighting with Iranian backed Sunni (Hamas) and Shia (Hezbollah) clients. They will never publicly say this, but Saudi Arabia would like nothing more than Israel winning this, and weakening Iran in the process.
Stop falling for old and simple narratives. The situation in the mideast has evolved quite a bit. Try to keep up OK?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 09:24:46 AM
Which surrounding Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, aina?
The surrounding Arab nations are more likely to wipe Palestine off the map. Hamas is destabilizing the region and their governments are weak as it is with their own active terrorist groups which are supported by Hamas.
Really hard to pick loosely coordinated extremists out of a crowd of regular folks. Hard to beat them in a war.
Turkey's nut job of a President's comments aren't helping the de-escalation process.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 09:24:46 AM
Which surrounding Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, aina?
All of them. They all harbor and fund terrorists, who are funded by Russia and China, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 25, 2023, 09:45:54 AM
All of them. They all harbor and fund terrorists, who are funded by Russia and China, hey?
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/11FiDF2fuOujPG/giphy.webp?cid=6c09b952uh2ceyj7savpnij46hpmrbcvgfcfm9nikipxc9g1&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.webp&ct=g)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 25, 2023, 09:45:54 AM
All of them. They all harbor and fund terrorists, who are funded by Russia and China, hey?
Speaking of denial and ignorance of the threat ...
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 25, 2023, 09:45:54 AM
All of them. They all harbor and fund terrorists, who are funded by Russia and China, hey?
muslim hater
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 09:43:32 AM
Turkey's nut job of a President's comments aren't helping the de-escalation process.
All politics is local.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 09:50:40 AM
Speaking of denial and ignorance of the threat ...
Hunter's laptop...yada, yada, yada...Hamas
It all makes sense now.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 25, 2023, 09:45:54 AM
All of them. They all harbor and fund terrorists, who are funded by Russia and China, hey?
Too bad the next person up for speaker wants to cut all funding to Ukraine to fight Russia, the terrorism funders. What can you do, aina?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 25, 2023, 10:03:57 AM
Too bad the next person up for speaker wants to cut all funding to Ukraine to fight Russia, the terrorism funders. What can you do, aina?
Yep. A ridiculous number of Doc's party bends the knee to Putin, who also holds puppet strings to Doc's favorite president. Tucker is constantly defending and/or drooling over Putin.
Who funds Iran? Putin!
Ipso fatso, anybody who votes for any of those politicians or who gives Tucker any credence obviously is a Jew-hater.
https://apple.news/AVCkOKwRER-SnSXTP6iIKYg
Quote from: MU82 on October 25, 2023, 10:11:05 AM
Yep. A ridiculous number of Doc's party bends the knee to Putin, who also holds puppet strings to Doc's favorite president. Tucker is constantly defending and/or drooling over Putin.
Who funds Iran? Putin!
Ipso fatso, anybody who votes for any of those politicians or who gives Tucker any credence obviously is a Jew-hater.
I enjoy pretzels
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 09:43:32 AM
Turkey's nut job of a President's comments aren't helping the de-escalation process.
Yeah, Orban just needs to shut up.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 25, 2023, 11:05:35 AM
Yeah, Orban just needs to shut up.
He's doing what he does - playing more internally than externally and playing off both sides when he has leverage.
Let me ask some of you a few questions:
1) Does Iran want to acquire nuclear weapons?
A) Yes
B) Yes
C) Yes
D) Yes
E) They just want to be friends with everyone and create chocolate rivers for the world.
2) If Iran has Nuclear capabilities will they try to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?
A) Yes
B) Yes
C) Yes
D) Yes
E) Yes
OR
F) They just want nukes for shits and grins?
Yes, Iran wants nuclear weapons
No, they don't want to use them on Israel. They will use them for leverage in their disputes with Saudi Arabia and the west. Israel has always been a useful foil for them. Getting rid of them now gets rid of that foil.
Not to mention they would get wiped off the face of the earth if they used them as well.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 25, 2023, 11:29:00 AM
Yes, Iran wants nuclear weapons
No, they don't want to use them on Israel. They will use them for leverage in their disputes with Saudi Arabia and the west. Israel has always been a useful foil for them. Getting rid of them now gets rid of that foil.
Not to mention they would get wiped off the face of the earth if they used them as well.
Right.
The mullahs are very keen on maintaining their power in Iran. A nuclear attack on Israel - for all intents a suicide mission - would bring that regime to an end.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 02:40:51 PM
Since you know what that fact was, please share it with the class.
You claimed you never called anyone a Jew Hater (incorrect fact). Hards provided evidence that you did (fact).
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 25, 2023, 11:24:51 AM
Let me ask some of you a few questions:
1) Does Iran want to acquire nuclear weapons?
A) Yes
B) Yes
C) Yes
D) Yes
E) They just want to be friends with everyone and create chocolate rivers for the world.
2) If Iran has Nuclear capabilities will they try to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?
A) Yes
B) Yes
C) Yes
D) Yes
E) Yes
OR
F) They just want nukes for craps and grins?
You have a very disturbing and poor understanding of the purpose of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are defensive in nature. They exist to ensure that their owners can't be directly attacked by other nations. There is a reason that a nation with a nuclear weapon has never been directly attacked by another nation. There is no situation (other than another nation using nuclear weapons offensively) where use of nuclear weapons as an offensive tactic is acceptable.
If Iran obtained nuclear weapons, they would not use them to obliterate Israel (or anyone else). To do so would be suicide and their leadership is very invested in their own survival.
That being said, we of course do not want Iran to obtain them and I am fine with reasonable interventions to delay or prevent them from obtaining them. Invasion of Iran does not fall under "reasonable".
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 25, 2023, 11:05:35 AM
Yeah, Orban just needs to shut up.
Not to quibble because it's easy to mix them up.
Orban is the Hungarian dictator who thinks Russia is great.
Erdogan is the Turkish President who does as Sultan correctly stated, whatever he thinks works best for him internally.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 25, 2023, 12:10:59 PM
You have a very disturbing and poor understanding of the purpose of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are defensive in nature. They exist to ensure that their owners can't be directly attacked by other nations. There is a reason that a nation with a nuclear weapon has never been directly attacked by another nation. There is no situation (other than another nation using nuclear weapons offensively) where use of nuclear weapons as an offensive tactic is acceptable.
If Iran obtained nuclear weapons, they would not use them to obliterate Israel (or anyone else). To do so would be suicide and their leadership is very invested in their own survival.
That being said, we of course do not want Iran to obtain them and I am fine with reasonable interventions to delay or prevent them from obtaining them. Invasion of Iran does not fall under "reasonable".
So you don't want Iran to get a nuclear weapon? That's a positive. Do the Mullahs "understand the purpose" of a nuclear weapon? You do realize Islamic extremists/terrorists have committed suicidd in the process of killing others? Being "reasonable" or negotiating with Iram seems to be a losing proposition.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 25, 2023, 01:04:00 PM
So you don't want Iran to get a nuclear weapon? That's a positive. Do the Mullahs "understand the purpose" of a nuclear weapon? You do realize Islamic extremists/terrorists have committed suicidd in the process of killing others? Being "reasonable" or negotiating with Iram seems to be a losing proposition.
Absolutely! Let's nuke 'em!!! And when the fallout from the nukes covers other areas of the very small region that is the Middle East, including some or all of Israel, you can scream: "Biden gave Israel cancer!"
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 25, 2023, 01:02:35 PM
Not to quibble because it's easy to mix them up.
Orban is the Hungarian dictator who thinks Russia is great.
Erdogan is the Turkish President who does as Sultan correctly stated, whatever he thinks works best for him internally.
Former President Trump appeared to confuse the leaders of Hungary and Turkey during a campaign speech Monday evening in Derry, N.H.
"I was very honored — there's a man, Viktor Orbán, anybody ever hear of him? He's probably like, one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world," he said. "He's the leader of Turkey."https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4272099-trump-confuses-leaders-of-hungary-turkey/
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 01:13:49 PM
Former President Trump appeared to confuse the leaders of Hungary and Turkey during a campaign speech Monday evening in Derry, N.H.
"I was very honored — there's a man, Viktor Orbán, anybody ever hear of him? He's probably like, one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world," he said. "He's the leader of Turkey."
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4272099-trump-confuses-leaders-of-hungary-turkey/
Buffoon, aina?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 02:39:34 PM
October 24, 2023
Elite Universities Face Donor Revolt Over Mideast Conflict
Some wealthy alums say response to Hamas attacks was final straw after years of growing disenchantment
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/elite-universities-face-donor-revolt-over-mideast-conflict-6c93662f
On Monday, a group of prominent alumni including Mitt Romney and investors Seth Klarman and Bill Helman published an open letter to Harvard criticizing the school's leadership in what they described as an increasingly hostile environment for Harvard's Jewish students. The group outlined steps it said the school should take, such as restricting campus protests to enrolled students and creating and making mandatory a semester-long class on critical thinking and fact-finding. "We fear that history is on the verge of repeating itself," the letter said.
Whoever helped them come up with these two demands is savvy. They understand that universities really can do nothing about students and employees choosing to engage in unwanted/embarrassing/hateful/etc protected speech, so they offer two steps that are (theoretically) within the university's power to enact...though one may be impossible to enforce.
Private institutions don't have to honor first amendment rights. It's why Rocky can call a poster a douche canoe and then ban said poster for a week. Rocky's site. Rocky's rules. Private universities fall in this category as well, however, the vast majority of private universities have self-imposed first amendment rights on themselves for decades. In most cases, this takes the form of a university policy, guaranteeing that the university will honor the first amendment rights of their students and employees. If a university were to violate this policy, it becomes a matter of contract law rather than civil rights law. As in, the student agrees to pay tuition to the university in exchange for the university providing the student an education and both parties agree to various terms and conditions of that arrangement. A private university violating a student or employee's free speech would then be considered a violation of that contract.
The reason this demand is savvy is because most likely (depending on the policy), the university has no obligation to honor the free speech of non students and non employees because they do not have a contract with these individuals. That most likely gives private universities the right to ban or remove non-students/employees from their grounds for engaging in speech that the university doesn't approve of.
The problem I would see comes in the enforcement of said policy. How do you ensure that non-students/employees don't come to a university protest? You can't prove a negative, so they only methods I can think of involve requiring attendees to present some sort of identification proving that they are student/employee. Requiring protesters to identify themselves to a university official, or most likely a campus cop, in order to participate in a protest would likely be ruled as a violation of those students'/employees' contractually guaranteed first amendment rights and the university would rightly get smacked for it.
So these donors are demanding a policy that is likely within the university's right to enact but outside of their ability to enforce.
As for the required class on critical thinking/fact finding. Assuming that's what they are actually requesting, I'm all for it. Marquette requires (or at least the did when I attended) all students to take a logic course and I personally believe that was the most valuable course I took at Marquette. I would honestly be surprised if Harvard didn't already have something like that. My suspicion is that ?critical thinking/fact finding" is code for something else, what, I'm not sure. Though I find the idea of conservative donors demanding the additional of a mandatory liberal arts course to be amusing. Usually that side of the donor spectrum is doing everything in their power to get rid of required liberal arts courses.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 25, 2023, 01:04:00 PM
So you don't want Iran to get a nuclear weapon? That's a positive. Do the Mullahs "understand the purpose" of a nuclear weapon? You do realize Islamic extremists/terrorists have committed suicidd in the process of killing others? Being "reasonable" or negotiating with Iram seems to be a losing proposition.
Muggsy, find me one example of a suicide bomber who was a high level government official and as a result of their bombing, killed 9x more of their own citizens (including the highest levels of their own leadership) than citizens of the country they were trying to harm (Iran has approximately 9x the people that Isreael does).
Iran's leadership backs groups that utilize suicide bombers. Iran's leadership is not made up of suicide bombers. They are not going to kill themselves and the 90 million people living in their country in exchange for the chance to kill 10 million people in Israel. The fact that you believe this is a possibility illustrates that your response is emotional, not logical.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 25, 2023, 01:02:35 PM
Not to quibble because it's easy to mix them up.
Orban is the Hungarian dictator who thinks Russia is great.
Erdogan is the Turkish President who does as Sultan correctly stated, whatever he thinks works best for him internally.
Fake news! Witch hunt. Ninety-One Flavors told me so with his very strong brain.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 24, 2023, 04:06:21 PM
George Soros is Jewish, but you couldn't tell by his actions, hey?
That's a big yikes, man.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 25, 2023, 09:35:39 AM
The surrounding Arab nations are more likely to wipe Palestine off the map. Hamas is destabilizing the region and their governments are weak as it is with their own active terrorist groups which are supported by Hamas.
Really hard to pick loosely coordinated extremists out of a crowd of regular folks. Hard to beat them in a war.
Turkey is a big supporter of the Hamas regime, gives them aid, and Hamas has offices in Turkey. People dismissing Erdogan's comments is a load of crap.
Here's an interesting article on his possible reasons
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/20/erdogan-turkey-hamas-ties-israel-war-normalization/ (https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/20/erdogan-turkey-hamas-ties-israel-war-normalization/)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 25, 2023, 01:48:54 PM
That's a big yikes, man.
He doesn't do what 4elder believes Jewish people should do. Sounds familiar, aina? Feels anti-semitic, imo
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 24, 2023, 08:22:29 PM
True. I care because it suggests people aren't paying attention to reality.
Your reality is of your own construction.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 24, 2023, 09:45:47 PM
How about this? He said Israel deserved it. Does this get you to "Yet?"
(Isreal called on him to resign)
---
"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."
You don't understand nuance, do you. Oh, nevermind, of course you don't.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 01:52:27 PM
Turkey is a big supporter of the Hamas regime, gives them aid, and Hamas has offices in Turkey. People dismissing Erdogan's comments is a load of crap.
Here's an interesting article on his possible reasons
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/20/erdogan-turkey-hamas-ties-israel-war-normalization/ (https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/20/erdogan-turkey-hamas-ties-israel-war-normalization/)
Who dismissed Erdogan's comments?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 25, 2023, 09:31:33 AM
You mean the Arab nations like Jordan, Egypt and the UAE that have signed peace/normalization treaties with Israel? And Saudi Arabia who was considering doing the same thing just weeks ago?
Y'all are acting like its still the 1960s and 70s. It isn't. Iran (which not Arab BTW) has been fighting with Saudi Arabia for dominance in the region is trying to break apart a potential alliance with Israel. There is NO coincidence that this occurred just after rumors of such an agreement started percolating.
This will not become a broader war with other Arab nations. They want nothing to do with this except use words - which could always change if Israel overreacts by the way. This is about Israel fighting with Iranian backed Sunni (Hamas) and Shia (Hezbollah) clients. They will never publicly say this, but Saudi Arabia would like nothing more than Israel winning this, and weakening Iran in the process.
Stop falling for old and simple narratives. The situation in the mideast has evolved quite a bit. Try to keep up OK?
Bingo. Also, the existence of Israel isn't under an existential threat as long as it still has all the nukes it claims to not have. This is exactly why no one actually messes with Israel. They use proxies like Hamas, Hezbollah, et al.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 25, 2023, 11:05:35 AM
Yeah, Orban just needs to shut up.
That'd be Hungary? Unless you're trying to be funny. I dunno.
Erdogan is who you're thinking of.
edit: I see this has been covered.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 02:11:01 PM
Who dismissed Erdogan's comments?
I read yours, Sultan's comments to mean, he is only saying these things to keep him as President, as opposed to the view that he actually hates Israel and is actively supporting Hamas in their crusade to eliminate Israel
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 02:26:03 PM
I read yours, Sultan's comments to mean, he is only saying these things to keep him as President, as opposed to the view that he actually hates Israel and is actively supporting Hamas in their crusade to eliminate Israel
My comments merely suggested his remarks reflect the mood of his constituents, and in particular his base.
Erdogan may be happy to play footsie with Hamas, but in no way does he want a wider conflict, and certainly not a direct conflict with Israel. His government has lobbied Hamas to release hostages, and warned Iran about doing anything to increase tensions.
Are you arguing that Erdogan wants to eliminate Israel? How does that jibe with recent efforts by his government, including a face-to-face with Yapid last year and other formal steps to establish formal diiplomatic ties since?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 02:42:15 PM
My comments merely suggested his remarks reflect the mood of his constituents, and in particular his base.
Erdogan may be happy to play footsie with Hamas, but in no way does he want a wider conflict, and certainly not a direct conflict with Israel. His government has lobbied Hamas to release hostages, and warned Iran about doing anything to increase tensions.
Are you arguing that Erdogan wants to eliminate Israel? How does that jibe with recent efforts by his government, including a face-to-face with Yapid last year and other formal steps to establish formal diiplomatic ties since?
I am saying he has chosen the side of Hamas, he is giving them aid and refuge. He is allowing public rallies (which are banned in Turkey) against the US and Israel. He has basically stopped all chances for diplomancy with Israel by backing Hamas. It's not some local political angle.
He hates Israel. When the State Department has to issue a press release on a foreign leaders comments, you know its bad
https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/ (https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 02:42:15 PM
My comments merely suggested his remarks reflect the mood of his constituents, and in particular his base.
Erdogan may be happy to play footsie with Hamas, but in no way does he want a wider conflict, and certainly not a direct conflict with Israel. His government has lobbied Hamas to release hostages, and warned Iran about doing anything to increase tensions.
Are you arguing that Erdogan wants to eliminate Israel? How does that jibe with recent efforts by his government, including a face-to-face with Yapid last year and other formal steps to establish formal diiplomatic ties since?
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 03:01:46 PM
I am saying he has chosen the side of Hamas, he is giving them aid and refuge. He is allowing public rallies (which are banned in Turkey) against the US and Israel. He has basically stopped all chances for diplomancy with Israel by backing Hamas. It's not some local political angle.
He hates Israel. When the State Department has to issue a press release on a foreign leaders comments, you know its bad
https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/ (https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/)
I think all of these things may be accurate.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 03:01:46 PM
I am saying he has chosen the side of Hamas, he is giving them aid and refuge. He is allowing public rallies (which are banned in Turkey) against the US and Israel. He has basically stopped all chances for diplomancy with Israel by backing Hamas. It's not some local political angle.
He hates Israel. When the State Department has to issue a press release on a foreign leaders comments, you know its bad
https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/ (https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/)
So, back to your post and my question.
How are Erdogan's remarks leading to escalation, especially in light of steps his government has taken to discourage escalation?
If Erodgan's goal is the elimination is Israel, why did he meet with Yapid and host Herzog last year, meet with Netanyahu earlier this year, and invite Netanyahu to Turkey this summer (a visit the latter backed out of)? Are these the actions of someone trying to eliminate Israel?
Seems you're far more concerned with what Erdogan says than what he does.
Look, Erdogan is a bad guy. But he's not a slightly more westernized version of Iran's mullahs. He's not looking to escalate the situation nor does he wants some widespread conflict aimed at ending Israel.
Erdogan is only interested in one thing. Himself.
He is a populist.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 03:18:22 PM
So, back to your post and my question.
How are Erdogan's remarks leading to escalation, especially in light of steps his government has taken to discourage escalation?
If Erodgan's goal is the elimination is Israel, why did he meet with Yapid and host Herzog last year, meet with Netanyahu earlier this year, and invite Netanyahu to Turkey this summer (a visit the latter backed out of)? Are these the actions of someone trying to eliminate Israel?
Seems you're far more concerned with what Erdogan says than what he does.
Look, Erdogan is a bad guy. But he's not a slightly more westernized version of Iran's mullahs. He's not looking to escalate the situation nor does he wants some widespread conflict aimed at ending Israel.
So you think he is saying all of these things to stay in power? I guess we'll agree to disagree on that
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 03:25:48 PM
So you think he is saying all of these things to stay in power? I guess we'll agree to disagree on that
Yeah, that's not at all what I wrote. I expect those kind of straw men out of
Heisey Douchey, not you.
So, you think Erdogan wants to team with Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah for a massive regional war to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.
I guess I shouldn't expect answers to my questions.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 03:34:37 PM
Yeah, that's not at all what I wrote. I expect those kind of straw men out of Heisey Douchey, not you.
So, you think Erdogan wants to team with Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah for a massive regional war to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth? I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.
I guess I shouldn't expect answers to my questions.
Did you forget about your first response?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 09:54:46 AM
All politics is local.
So that is exactly what you wrote.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 03:39:00 PM
Did you forget about your first response?
So that is exactly what you wrote.
Yes, and I've already explained why that doesn't mean what you assumed it means. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink.
If you want to answer my questions, give it a go. Otherwise, I'll assume you have no interest in a discussion and are simply spoiling for a fight.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 09:24:46 AM
Which surrounding Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, aina?
Only four Arab countries even recognize Israel's right to exist: the UAE, Sudan, Morocco, and (to a lesser extent) Bahrain.
The UAE and Bahrain are the smallest Arab countries, Sudan is a giant mess, and Morocco is the most "Western of the Arab countries. They represent a tiny percentage of the Arab world's population.
So, a more straightforward way to say this is "all of them."
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 03:42:51 PM
Yes, and I've already explained why that doesn't mean what you assumed it means. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink.
If you want to answer my questions, give it a go. Otherwise, I'll assume you have no interest in a discussion and are simply spoiling for a fight.
What I see is that you used that quote, and then realized you were wrong (or at least using the quote wrong). I know what that quote means.
So, to answer your question, I think he had to pick a side, and his conservative Muslim views won out.
"Whoever is on the side of Israel, let everyone know that we are against them," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Saturday, according to Iran's Press TV.
Erdogan made the comments as he addressed senior provincial officials from the ruling AKP party in Ankara.
Two stories from Today's WSJ.
The bottom line is that Americans are widely expected to fight (unfortunately, the implication is die) during this war. Because Iran will be a focus and Israel is waiting to attack, allowing the US time to prepare.
If American combat troops are part of this fight ... what side are you on?
Hint: it is a really really easy question.
-----
Hamas Fighters Trained in Iran Before Oct. 7 Attacks
Roughly 500 Palestinian militants got specialized combat instruction at Iranian facilities as recently as September
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fighters-trained-in-iran-before-oct-7-attacks-e2a8dbb9
In the weeks leading up to Hamas's Oct. 7 attack on Israel, hundreds of the Palestinian Islamist militant group's fighters received specialized combat training in Iran, according to people familiar with intelligence related to the assault.
Roughly 500 militants from Hamas and an allied group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, participated in the exercises in September, which were led by officers of the Quds Force, the foreign-operations arm of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the people said.
Senior Palestinian officials and Iranian Brig. Gen. Esmail Qaani, the head of Quds Force, also attended, they said.
----
Israel-Hamas War Updates: Israel Agrees to Delay Gaza Invasion for U.S. Military to Prepare Defenses
Iran's role in the conflict was amplified as Israeli forces struck targets in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, and Syria.
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-palestinians-news
Israel agreed to a U.S. request to get its air defenses in place to protect U.S. troops in the region ahead of an expected ground invasion into Gaza, according to U.S. officials and people familiar with Israel's planning.
Related ... they are already trying to kill Americans.
Rockets Fired at U.S. Base in Syria
By Nancy A. Youssef
A U.S. base in northeastern Syria came under attack on Wednesday, a U.S. defense official said.
One rocket landed on the base in Kharab al-Jir, Syria, and two struck nearby, the defense official said. There were no immediate signs of injuries and no damage, the official said.
Since Oct. 17, there have been at least 13 other similar attacks on U.S. bases in Iraq and Syria and on a U.S. destroyer operating in the Red Sea.
----
Why is there no outrage that the Palestinians will not cease fire? Why is only Israel called on for a cease-fire?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 03:45:21 PM
Only four Arab countries even recognize Israel's right to exist: the UAE, Sudan, Morocco, and (to a lesser extent) Bahrain.
The UAE and Bahrain are the smallest Arab countries, Sudan is a giant mess, and Morocco is the most "Western of the Arab countries. They represent a tiny percentage of the Arab world's population.
So, a more straightforward way to say this is "all of them."
Why did you leave out Egypt or Jordan? Or Turkey, which is close enough. Probably just an oversight.
And if lack of official recognition equals "wants wiped off the face of the Earth," then Taiwan better look out. We're coming for them.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 03:51:41 PM
So, to answer your question, I think he had to pick a side, and his conservative Muslim views won out.
That wasn't my question.
Thanks for trying, though.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 04:07:39 PM
Why did you leave out Egypt, Jordan and Turkey? Probably just an oversight.
And if lack of official recognition equals "wants wiped off the face of the Earth," then Taiwan better look out. We're coming for them.
Jordan (18 hours ago) - Jordan's Queen Rania says 'no evidence' of Hamas atrocities
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skujhilma
Turkey (earlier today) Turkey's Erdogan hails Hamas as liberators, leaving détente with Israel in shreds
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/10/turkeys-erdogan-hails-hamas-liberators-leaving-detente-israel-shreds
Egypt hates HATES the Palestinians in Gaza. If they all fell into the sea, no one in Cairo would shed a tear. So their support is one of convenience.
The four I noted both recognize Israel and put out statements of condemnation over the Hamas attacks. Out fo 55 Arab and Muslim countries, that's it.
----
Forget this back-and-forth ...
Are you honestly trying to argue that no Arab country has argued for the end of Israel?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
That wasn't my question.
Thanks for trying, though.
you're welcome. I think he would have no problem destroying Israel. He has a track record of bad things-see Syria. Still wating for you to acknowledge that you butchered the use of that quote. by that quote you are saying he is saying these things to appease his local constituents. That is not true.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 04:15:22 PM
Jordan (18 hours ago) - Jordan's Queen Rania says 'no evidence' of Hamas atrocities
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skujhilma
Turkey (earlier today) Turkey's Erdogan hails Hamas as liberators, leaving détente with Israel in shreds
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/10/turkeys-erdogan-hails-hamas-liberators-leaving-detente-israel-shreds
Egypt hates HATES the Palestinians in Gaza. If they all fell into the sea, no one in Cairo would shed a tear. So their support is one of convenience.
The four I noted both recognize Israel and put out statements of condemnation over the Hamas attacks. Out fo 55 Arab and Muslim countries, that's it.
----
Forget this back-and-forth ...
Are you honestly trying to argue that no Arab country has argued for the end of Israel?
A+ for goalpost shifting.
And no.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 04:16:37 PM
A+ for goalpost shifting.
And no.
No goalpost shifting ... Jordan and Turkey's position changed earlier today. (Maybe because everyone is getting ready for what is coming next and staking their positions out ... because they believe this is the fight for existence and not a glorified police action to get a handful of criminals.)
And if your answer is no, that you believe Arab countries have called for the end of Israel, what was this about?
How were we supposed to read this?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 09:24:46 AM
Which surrounding Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, aina?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 04:15:22 PM
Jordan (18 hours ago) - Jordan's Queen Rania says 'no evidence' of Hamas atrocities
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skujhilma
Turkey (earlier today) Turkey's Erdogan hails Hamas as liberators, leaving détente with Israel in shreds
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/10/turkeys-erdogan-hails-hamas-liberators-leaving-detente-israel-shreds
Egypt hates HATES the Palestinians in Gaza. If they all fell into the sea, no one in Cairo would shed a tear. So their support is one of convenience.
The four I noted both recognize Israel and put out statements of condemnation over the Hamas attacks. Out fo 55 Arab and Muslim countries, that's it.
----
Forget this back-and-forth ...
Are you honestly trying to argue that no Arab country has argued for the end of Israel?
There's the inevitable goalpost shift and strawman argument when his argument goes south....
Statements by various Arab leaders do not mean they are ready to go to war with Israel. That is a ridiculous leap in logic.
And he never claimed that "no Arab country argued for the end of Israel." That's a big strawman even for you.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 04:24:39 PM
No goalpost shifting ... Jordan and Turkey's position changed earlier today. (Maybe because everyone is getting ready for what is coming next and staking their positions out ... because they believe this is the fight for existence and not a glorified police action to get a handful of criminals.)
And if your answer is no, that you believe Arab countries have called for the end of Israel, what was this about?
How were we supposed to read this?
Not a serious person.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 25, 2023, 04:15:40 PM
you're welcome. I think he would have no problem destroying Israel. He has a track record of bad things-see Syria. Still wating for you to acknowledge that you butchered the use of that quote. by that quote you are saying he is saying these things to appease his local constituents. That is not true.
I didn't butcher the quote. You have an incorrect understanding of it if you believe it's about "appeasing" voters.
And again, if he hates Israel and wants to destroy them, why has his government taken significant strides to improve diplomatic relations over the past 18 months - including inviting Netanyahu to Ankara? Why has trade between the nations significantly grown under him?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 04:24:39 PM
No goalpost shifting ... Jordan and Turkey's position changed earlier today. (Maybe because everyone is getting ready for what is coming next and staking their positions out ... because they believe this is the fight for existence and not a glorified police action to get a handful of criminals.)
And if your answer is no, that you believe Arab countries have called for the end of Israel, what was this about?
How were we supposed to read this?
Reading isn't that hard. I asked which Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the Earth. Give it a try. But remember, the question is not:
Which Arab nations don't recognize Israel?
Which Arab nations are hostile toward Israel?
Which Arab nations haven't condemned Hamas?
Which Arab nations are taking Palestinian refugees?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 04:37:34 PM
Reading isn't that hard. I asked which Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the Earth. Give it a try. But remember, the question is not:
Which Arab nations don't recognize Israel?
Which Arab nations are hostile toward Israel?
Which Arab nations haven't condemned Hamas?
Which Arab nations are taking Palestinian refugees?
And I said
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 09:24:46 AM
Which surrounding Arab nations are a threat to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, aina?
So, a more straightforward way to say this is "all of them."
[/quote]
Look forward to your next dissemble.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 04:32:56 PM
I didn't butcher the quote. You have an incorrect understanding of it if you believe it's about "appeasing" voters.
And again, if he hates Israel and wants to destroy them, why has his government taken significant strides to improve diplomatic relations over the past 18 months - including inviting Netanyahu to Ankara? Why has trade between the nations significantly grown under him?
Unless you are the ghost of Tip O'Neill I will disagree. You need the "grass roots" to get elected, and once elected you need to kep those local issues hot to keep your seat. With your quote, Sultans , and a few others, you are minimizing the impact of what he said. Have you seen any of his quotes about Israel in the past 20 years? He hates Israel, and now he has the opportunity to act.
Pakuni, stop placating these regimes.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 04:46:21 PM
And I said
So, a more straightforward way to say this is "all of them."
Got it.
In 1948, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria all teamed up to attack Israel, got their tails kicked and lost land in the process.
In 1967, Egypt, Jordan and Syria teamed up again, lost in six days, and Israel gained more land.
In 1973, Egypt and Syria tried again, this time with minor help from a half dozen fellow Arab nations, and they lost in a few weeks. And, oh yeah, they ceded more territory to Israel.
Despite this track record of monumental failure, you believe that every single Arab nation - Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, Tunisia, Oman, etc. - is a legitimate threat to wipe Israel from existence.
Very credible.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 25, 2023, 04:55:24 PM
Pakuni, stop placating these regimes.
You can just call them governments.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 05:05:48 PM
Got it.
In 1948, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria all teamed up to attack Israel, got their tails kicked and lost land in the process.
In 1967, Egypt, Jordan and Syria teamed up again, lost in six days, and Israel gained more land.
In 1973, Egypt and Syria tried again, this time with minor help from a half dozen fellow Arab nations, and they lost in a few weeks. And, oh yeah, they ceded more territory to Israel.
Despite this track record of monumental failure, you believe that every single Arab nation - Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, Tunisia, Oman, etc. - is a legitimate threat to wipe Israel from existence.
Very credible.
If you live in a brick house with thick windows and a gang of kids is throwing rocks at it (think Iron Dome repelling rockets), do you shrug and say they cannot hurt us? So, you ignore it.
And occasionally, when you venture outside and get hit in the head and break a nose or cheek (think Iron Dome is not perfect, and some get through and Israelis die), do you continue to shrug and say. They will not destroy my house, so I'll tolerate it?
Then, three gang members break into your house and beat the snot out of your family (October 7). Do you call the police and say, "Here is my security video of the three that beat up my family. Please find and arrest them, and never mind the rest outside throwing rocks at my house.
---
This is what you're arguing.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 05:37:06 PM
If you live in a brick house with thick windows and a gang of kids is throwing rocks at it (think Iron Dome repelling rockets), do you shrug and say they cannot hurt us? So, you ignore it.
You've gone from "wiped off the Earth" to an analogy involving children throwing rocks at a brick wall.
Tell me how this isn't shifting goalposts.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 05:43:34 PM
You've gone from "wiped off the Earth" to an analogy involving children throwing rocks at a brick wall.
Tell me how this isn't shifting goalposts.
The kids are trying to wipe you off the face of the earth. And they have terrorized you, broke your nose, and beat up your family.
Given this analogy, what would you do? The answer is you would be even more strident than Israel. You could never like this, but you demand Israel does.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 25, 2023, 05:52:13 PM
The kids are trying to wipe you off the face of the earth. And they have terrorized you, broke your nose, and beat up your family.
They're going to wipe me off the face of the earth by throwing rocks against a brick wall?
How does this make sense to you????????
Also, in this analogy, which Arab nation(s) are the kids? Like, is Kuwait throwing rocks at Israel? Did Saudi Arabian troops break into Israel? Who broke Israel's nose?
Quote
Given this analogy, what would you do? The answer is you would be even more strident than Israel. You could never like this, but you demand Israel does.
What exactly have I demanded of Israel?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2023, 05:58:37 PM
What exactly have I demanded of Israel?
For them to placate regimes
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 25, 2023, 01:33:37 PM
Whoever helped them come up with these two demands is savvy. They understand that universities really can do nothing about students and employees choosing to engage in unwanted/embarrassing/hateful/etc protected speech, so they offer two steps that are (theoretically) within the university's power to enact...though one may be impossible to enforce.
Private institutions don't have to honor first amendment rights. It's why Rocky can call a poster a douche canoe and then ban said poster for a week. Rocky's site. Rocky's rules. Private universities fall in this category as well, however, the vast majority of private universities have self-imposed first amendment rights on themselves for decades. In most cases, this takes the form of a university policy, guaranteeing that the university will honor the first amendment rights of their students and employees. If a university were to violate this policy, it becomes a matter of contract law rather than civil rights law. As in, the student agrees to pay tuition to the university in exchange for the university providing the student an education and both parties agree to various terms and conditions of that arrangement. A private university violating a student or employee's free speech would then be considered a violation of that contract.
The reason this demand is savvy is because most likely (depending on the policy), the university has no obligation to honor the free speech of non students and non employees because they do not have a contract with these individuals. That most likely gives private universities the right to ban or remove non-students/employees from their grounds for engaging in speech that the university doesn't approve of.
The problem I would see comes in the enforcement of said policy. How do you ensure that non-students/employees don't come to a university protest? You can't prove a negative, so they only methods I can think of involve requiring attendees to present some sort of identification proving that they are student/employee. Requiring protesters to identify themselves to a university official, or most likely a campus cop, in order to participate in a protest would likely be ruled as a violation of those students'/employees' contractually guaranteed first amendment rights and the university would rightly get smacked for it.
So these donors are demanding a policy that is likely within the university's right to enact but outside of their ability to enforce.
As for the required class on critical thinking/fact finding. Assuming that's what they are actually requesting, I'm all for it. Marquette requires (or at least the did when I attended) all students to take a logic course and I personally believe that was the most valuable course I took at Marquette. I would honestly be surprised if Harvard didn't already have something like that. My suspicion is that ?critical thinking/fact finding" is code for something else, what, I'm not sure. Though I find the idea of conservative donors demanding the additional of a mandatory liberal arts course to be amusing. Usually that side of the donor spectrum is doing everything in their power to get rid of required liberal arts courses.
Now you can add Columbia squarely into the mix.
—-
Cooperman has given Columbia $50 million. He's done
Billionaire Leon Cooperman Cutting Off Donations To Columbia Over Student Protests Of Israel-Hamas War
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mollybohannon/2023/10/26/billionaire-leon-cooperman-cutting-off-donations-to-columbia-over-student-protests-of-israel-hamas-war/
Cooperman criticized the pro-Palestinian protests held by Columbia students while speaking on Fox Business's The Claman Countdown on Wednesday, saying he thinks college students "have sh** for brains."
—————
Last year's "giving day" raised $30 million.
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/23/columbia-postpones-annual-giving-day-citing-not-the-appropriate-time/
———
Is Cooperman and "giving day" done for good?
No
But to restart both is probably going to mean wholesale university policy changes, resignations and/or firings, and possibly explusions.
Who is going to make this happen? The board of trustees. If you don't resign from the Columbia board, and do not demand all of the above, the trustee will suffer great reputational damage.
No trustee will allow that. University faculty and administrators are expendable if they stand in the way of trustee's reputations.
—-
This is the long term legacy on higher education from the last three weeks.
No college or university is going to fire a tenured faculty member or expel a student for merely protesting.
Do you really think that's a good idea?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 26, 2023, 05:29:24 PM
No college or university is going to fire a tenured faculty member or expel a student for merely protesting.
Do you really think that's a good idea?
You may be correct, and they will keep the "s**t for brains" (Cooperman's term above) faculty and students.
And it has already cost the tens of millions of dollars, with a lot more losses coming.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 05:57:57 PM
You may be correct, and they will keep the "s**t for brains" (Cooperman's term above) faculty and students.
And it has already cost the tens of millions of dollars, with a lot more losses coming.
How will they survive
Putin had representatives from Hamas and Iran come to Moscow.
Its not just the college students who have chit for brains. We got lotsa stinky heads right here on Scoop, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 26, 2023, 06:13:18 PM
Its not just the college students who have chit for brains. We got lotsa stinky heads right here on Scoop, aina?
You had to edit that, huh? That's awesome.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 05:57:57 PM
You may be correct, and they will keep the "s**t for brains" (Cooperman's term above) faculty and students.
And it has already cost the tens of millions of dollars, with a lot more losses coming.
Well, donors don't run universities. They can take their giving elsewhere because I am sure that their survival isn't dependent on Cooperman.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 26, 2023, 06:20:41 PM
Well, donors don't run universities. They can take their giving elsewhere because I am sure that their survival isn't dependent on Cooperman.
Donors are the Board of Trustees. They have the ability to fire staff (including University Presidents and Basketball Coaches).
When Trustees come under fire like this, changes will be made.
Your smart enough to know this.
But instead of arguing for the sake of arguing ....
Imagine your University is losing many millions in donations, Trustees that have not resigned are "really giving it" to University Presidents (google Ken Griffin and Ronald Lauder) and the Donors/Trustees are getting an earful from the friends and professional relationships (google Marc Rowan) ..., What do you think comes of this?
Nothing? "Everything will be fine?"
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 06:35:44 PM
Donors are the Board of Trustees. They have the ability to fire staff (including University Presidents and Basketball Coaches).
When Trustees come under fire like this, changes will be made.
Your smart enough to know this.
But instead of arguing for the sake of arguing ....
Imagine your University is losing many millions in donations, Trustees that have not resigned are "really giving it" to University Presidents (google Ken Griffin and Ronald Lauder) and the Donors/Trustees are getting an earful from the friends and professional relationships (google Marc Rowan) ..., What do you think comes of this?
Nothing? "Everything will be fine?"
Again, donors aren't going to get faculty fired and students expelled. They may put pressure on Trustees and those Trustees could fire the President...but that would be a failure of governance. Trustees should support the rights of their tenured faculty and students.
And anyway, private gifts and grants make up less than 10% of Columbia's revenue. And its not like they are going to lose all of it.
Colleges and universities are a lot less responsive to donors who demand operational decisions than you think they are.
Cambridge University definition on Intifada
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/intifada
a violent act of oppostion by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip:
—
Students at @Princeton chant "long live the intifada." This is not simply pro-Palestinian activism. This is a call for violence against Jews. pic.twitter.com/nFZLc9XbIx
— Zach Kessel (@zach_kessel) October 25, 2023
——
What should Princeton do here? Nothing and watch more donors leave?
Or, have them arrested for incitement of violence?
Before you answer no, if anti-abortion students protested in front of a University clinic that provides "health services for Women" chanting "protect life at all costs" .... Is this also something that does not need to be addressed?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 26, 2023, 06:44:26 PM
Colleges and universities are a lot less responsive to donors who demand operational decisions than you think they are.
True
But this level of donor and Trustee protest is next level
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 06:53:16 PM
Cambridge University definition on Intifada
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/intifada
a violent act of oppostion by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip:
—
Students at @Princeton chant "long live the intifada." This is not simply pro-Palestinian activism. This is a call for violence against Jews. pic.twitter.com/nFZLc9XbIx
— Zach Kessel (@zach_kessel) October 25, 2023
——
What should Princeton do here? Nothing and watch more donors leave?
Or, have them arrested for incitement of violence?
Before you answer no, if anti-abortion students protested in front of a University clinic that provides "health services for Women" chanting "protect life at all costs" .... Is this also something that does not need to be addressed?
No. It would not need to be addressed.
This last few weeks have been eye opening and not in a good way about what is being taught at our esteemed colleges and universities. Imagine if another minority group was essentially trapped and terrified at the school library? Inexcusable and utterly despicable. And the leadership at Cooper U and other schools continue to do diddly squat.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 07:05:16 PM
Both examples?
Yep. As long as they are merely verbally protesting, and assuming the private universities otherwise allow it, both would not not need to be addressed.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 26, 2023, 06:18:50 PM
You had to edit that, huh? That's awesome.
Yeah, I took the usual suspect screen names out, hey?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 26, 2023, 06:20:41 PM
Well, donors don't run universities. They can take their giving elsewhere because I am sure that their survival isn't dependent on Cooperman.
In all your years in academia, how many $50 million donors have you come across, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 26, 2023, 07:19:07 PM
Yeah, I took the usual suspect screen names out, hey?
Incredible
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 26, 2023, 07:20:29 PM
In all your years in academia, how many $50 million donors have you come across, hey?
That have actually donated that amount to a particular college or university? Four. That have that potential? Probably about a dozen.
More than I anticipated. And, those 4 don't ask for, nor do they get specials favors or input with university decisions, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 26, 2023, 07:40:40 PM
More than I anticipated. And, those 4 don't ask for, nor do they get specials favors or input with university decisions, hey?
So one of the four was a long time ago and I wouldn't have been exposed to any of that. Two of the other three do not. I could share stories about the last, but not on Scoop.
But none of the four have been under scrutiny like this?
They have never been asked, or are asking, such "uncomfortable" questions BECAUSE they are a donor or trustee.
This is unprecedented.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 07:52:34 PM
But none of the four have been under scrutiny like this?
They have never been asked, or are asking, such "uncomfortable" questions BECAUSE they are a donor or trustee.
I wouldn't make that assumption.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 26, 2023, 07:58:50 PM
I wouldn't make that assumption.
CNN is making this assumption
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/business/philanthropy-colleges-harvard-upenn-israel/index.html
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 08:20:01 PM
CNN is making this assumption
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/business/philanthropy-colleges-harvard-upenn-israel/index.html
Harvard has a $50B endowment, UPenn has a $21B endowment. They need no further donations.
May matter for marginal universities like Marquette though, with a <$1B endowment.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 26, 2023, 08:27:52 PM
Harvard has a $50B endowment, UPenn has a $21B endowment. They need no further donations.
May matter for marginal universities like Marquette though, with a <$1B endowment.
Story
says that Universities get about $60 billion/year in donations.
Donors giving more than $1 million make up about 1% of all donors, but slightly more than half the money.
And we all know these are vanity projects to pump up the donors ego.
If the long term result of this is to make donors money look ineffective and the act vain, then they might shift their money to other places.
I'm very open to the idea of giving $60 billion/year to "real" charities is better than putting your name on a extremely wealthy University's building .... But I also think it will change higher education too.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 08:46:44 PM
Story says that Universities get about $60 billion/year in donations.
Donors giving more than $1 million make up about 1% of all donors, but slightly more than half the money.
And we all know these are vanity projects to pump up the donors ego.
If the long term result of this is to make donors money look ineffective and the act vain, then they might shift their money to other places.
I'm very open to the idea of giving $60 billion/year to "real" charities is better than putting your name on a extremely wealthy University's building .... But I also think it will change higher education too.
The Ivy League, and similar elite schools, aren't really representative of American higher education.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 08:46:44 PM
I'm very open to the idea of giving $60 billion/year to "real" charities is better than putting your name on a extremely wealthy University's building .... But I also think it will change higher education too.
It won't, because helping poor and sick people doesn't provide the look-at-me ego boost of your name on a building or a seat on the board, much less guaranteed admission for your dopey kids.
This eventually will blow over and it'll be back to business as usual.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 26, 2023, 08:58:50 PM
It won't, because helping poor and sick people doesn't provide the look-at-me ego boost of your name on a building or a seat on the board, much less guaranteed admission for your dopey kids.
This eventually will blow over and it'll be back to business as usual.
Of course it will.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 26, 2023, 08:53:07 PM
The Ivy League, and similar elite schools, aren't really representative of American higher education.
You'll like this ... donations are a factor in the US News rankings. Will big negative donations send the Ivies tumbling in the rankings next year?
Not that it matters for the Ivies and other such schools. But it would expose the ranking system for the fraud that is.
(In previous threads I have agreed with you that these range SHOULD BE worthless, but unfortunately they are not.
If this makes them worthless ... we can both agree this is a good thing.)
Quote from: Pakuni on October 26, 2023, 08:58:50 PM
It won't, because helping poor and sick people doesn't provide the look-at-me ego boost of your name on a building or a seat on the board, much less guaranteed admission for your dopey kids.
This eventually will blow over and it'll be back to business as usual.
I fear you are correct
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 09:00:30 PM
You'll like this ... donations are a factor in the US News rankings. Will big negative donations send the Ivies tumbling in the rankings next year?
Not that it matters for the Ivies and other such schools. But it would expose the ranking system for the fraud that is.
(In previous threads I have agreed with you that these range SHOULD BE worthless, but unfortunately they are not.
If this makes them worthless ... we can both agree this is a good thing.)
USN&WR rankings are almost meaningless outside the elite these days. Donations are not much of a factor anyway.
Crossing now...we are now getting involved directly
https://news.yahoo.com/us-strikes-iran-linked-sites-020822123.html
WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. military launched airstrikes early Friday on two locations in eastern Syria linked to Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps, the Pentagon said, in retaliation for a slew of drone and missile attacks against U.S. bases and personnel in the region that began early last week.
The U.S. strikes reflect the Biden administration's determination to maintain a delicate balance. The U.S. wants to hit Iranian-backed groups suspected of targeting the U.S. as strongly as possible to deter future aggression, possibly fueled by Israel's war against Hamas, while also working to avoid inflaming the region and provoking a wider conflict.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 09:35:57 PM
Crossing now...we are now getting involved directly
https://news.yahoo.com/us-strikes-iran-linked-sites-020822123.html
WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. military launched airstrikes early Friday on two locations in eastern Syria linked to Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps, the Pentagon said, in retaliation for a slew of drone and missile attacks against U.S. bases and personnel in the region that began early last week.
The U.S. strikes reflect the Biden administration's determination to maintain a delicate balance. The U.S. wants to hit Iranian-backed groups suspected of targeting the U.S. as strongly as possible to deter future aggression, possibly fueled by Israel's war against Hamas, while also working to avoid inflaming the region and provoking a wider conflict.
Did it in Marxh.
https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3339691/us-conducts-airstrikes-in-syria-in-response-to-deadly-uav-attack/
And a minimum 20 times in 2022:
https://airwars.org/research/us-airstrikes-fell-to-historic-low-in-2022-despite-fresh-operations/
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 09:35:57 PM
Crossing now...we are now getting involved directly
https://news.yahoo.com/us-strikes-iran-linked-sites-020822123.html
WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. military launched airstrikes early Friday on two locations in eastern Syria linked to Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps, the Pentagon said, in retaliation for a slew of drone and missile attacks against U.S. bases and personnel in the region that began early last week.
The U.S. strikes reflect the Biden administration's determination to maintain a delicate balance. The U.S. wants to hit Iranian-backed groups suspected of targeting the U.S. as strongly as possible to deter future aggression, possibly fueled by Israel's war against Hamas, while also working to avoid inflaming the region and provoking a wider conflict.
Good.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 06:35:44 PM
Donors are the Board of Trustees. They have the ability to fire staff (including University Presidents and Basketball Coaches).
When Trustees come under fire like this, changes will be made.
Your smart enough to know this.
But instead of arguing for the sake of arguing ....
Imagine your University is losing many millions in donations, Trustees that have not resigned are "really giving it" to University Presidents (google Ken Griffin and Ronald Lauder) and the Donors/Trustees are getting an earful from the friends and professional relationships (google Marc Rowan) ..., What do you think comes of this?
Nothing? "Everything will be fine?"
Weren't you on her like a month ago posting FIRE's free speech rankings and criticizing universities for not doing enough to protect free speech?
Now you want universities to expel students and fire employees for engaging in free speech because some donors are throwing (admittedly very costly) hissy fits?
If you were the champion of free speech that you have claimed to be in the past, you would be applauding universities for standing strong despite the financial cost.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 26, 2023, 05:57:57 PM
You may be correct, and they will keep the "s**t for brains" (Cooperman's term above) faculty and students.
And it has already cost the tens of millions of dollars, with a lot more losses coming.
Their endowments are self funding and ever growing.
They're going to be just fine. Too many rich dipsticks give money to schools that don't actually need it.
5000 deaths in Gaza. Of those, 13 Hamas soldiers.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2023, 08:44:09 AM
5000 deaths in Gaza. Of those, 13 Hamas soldiers.
Source?
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 27, 2023, 09:23:55 AM
Source?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/world/middleeast/gaza-death-toll-israel.html
Will this do? Not to mention the UN staff that has been killed.
That's sort of what happens when you drop more ordinance than the nuclear bomb over Hiroshima on a place where 2.3 million people live.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2023, 08:44:09 AM
5000 deaths in Gaza. Of those, 13 Hamas soldiers.
Was this from Ghazi Hamad? IDF has noted 3-4 key Hamas leaders that were eliminated in strikes, which Hamas or other sources never refuted, so only 10 other Hamas soldiers were killed? I find that IMMENSELY hard to believe, regardless of source, unless the source is doing the "unofficial soldiers" of Hamas that are only soldiers until they are killed and then become civilians.
Thats still a concerning and thoroughly depressing amount of civilians, regardless of what the actual reporting is. Just sobering and horrible.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 27, 2023, 09:33:34 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/world/middleeast/gaza-death-toll-israel.html
Will this do? Not to mention the UN staff that has been killed.
That's sort of what happens when you drop more ordinance than the nuclear bomb over Hiroshima on a place where 2.3 million people live.
LOL. Did you even read? Its from Hamas, their healthy ministry....
Speaking of horrible, take of this what you will, but this is a statement made before anything was done to or near the hospital. If true, it would surprise absolutely nobody but Hamas apologists...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-hamas-terror-groups-main-operations-base-is-under-shifa-hospital-in-gaza-city/
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 09:40:02 AM
Was this from Ghazi Hamad? IDF has noted 3-4 key Hamas leaders that were eliminated in strikes, which Hamas or other sources never refuted, so only 10 other Hamas soldiers were killed? I find that IMMENSELY hard to believe, regardless of source, unless the source is doing the "unofficial soldiers" of Hamas that are only soldiers until they are killed and then become civilians.
Thats still a concerning and thoroughly depressing amount of civilians, regardless of what the actual reporting is. Just sobering and horrible.
LOL. Did you even read? Its from Hamas, their healthy ministry....
Speaking of horrible, take of this what you will, but this is a statement made before anything was done to or near the hospital. If true, it would surprise absolutely nobody but Hamas apologists...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-hamas-terror-groups-main-operations-base-is-under-shifa-hospital-in-gaza-city/
As far as I understand, both UN and USA have, in the past, stated Hamas reporting of casualties is generally pretty accurate
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 09:40:02 AM
Was this from Ghazi Hamad? IDF has noted 3-4 key Hamas leaders that were eliminated in strikes, which Hamas or other sources never refuted, so only 10 other Hamas soldiers were killed? I find that IMMENSELY hard to believe, regardless of source, unless the source is doing the "unofficial soldiers" of Hamas that are only soldiers until they are killed and then become civilians.
Thats still a concerning and thoroughly depressing amount of civilians, regardless of what the actual reporting is. Just sobering and horrible.
LOL. Did you even read? Its from Hamas, their healthy ministry....
Speaking of horrible, take of this what you will, but this is a statement made before anything was done to or near the hospital. If true, it would surprise absolutely nobody but Hamas apologists...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-hamas-terror-groups-main-operations-base-is-under-shifa-hospital-in-gaza-city/
In general, I would be hesitant to believe anything in media during a war. Part of war is winning the image battle, which means all sides will flood the media with propaganda.
Not saying any of the above is wrong. Just cautioning trusting anything implicitly during wartime.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2023, 09:43:12 AM
As far as I understand, both UN and USA have, in the past, stated Hamas reporting of casualties is generally pretty accurate
Like 500 dead in the hospital "attack" in which the hospital suffered no significant structural damage?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 09:40:02 AM
Was this from Ghazi Hamad? IDF has noted 3-4 key Hamas leaders that were eliminated in strikes, which Hamas or other sources never refuted, so only 10 other Hamas soldiers were killed? I find that IMMENSELY hard to believe, regardless of source, unless the source is doing the "unofficial soldiers" of Hamas that are only soldiers until they are killed and then become civilians.
Thats still a concerning and thoroughly depressing amount of civilians, regardless of what the actual reporting is. Just sobering and horrible.
LOL. Did you even read? Its from Hamas, their healthy ministry....
Speaking of horrible, take of this what you will, but this is a statement made before anything was done to or near the hospital. If true, it would surprise absolutely nobody but Hamas apologists...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-hamas-terror-groups-main-operations-base-is-under-shifa-hospital-in-gaza-city/
I understand, but can Israel or the US refute the claims? Do the bodies need to be laid out in the streets for a proper count? Say it was half that amount, does it matter to most people? The ministry released ages, genders and ID numbers. Now, of course Hamas lies, but we should believe what? Israel? Who has no way of counting? Should we believe the pictures of dead people? Of entire neighborhoods flattened in Gaza? Should we ignore the widespread reporting that Israel still bombs the South, where the civilians were told to go to 'be safe'?
As for the hospital claims, boy that would be awful convenient for Israel to claim... you know, since they routinely blow hospitals up. What better cover than to say, "Well that's where their bases are! We have intelligence!". Yet, there is no proof. There is no occupying force giving us pictures of these claims. We are supposed to take Israel at their word (despite their extreme propensity to lie to the world), but if Hamas counts bodies... HELL NAW!
You see the problem here, right?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 09:59:44 AM
Like 500 dead in the hospital "attack" in which the hospital suffered no significant structural damage?
The implication here is that the hospital treatment wasn't overflowing into the parking lot because of the number of people with injuries?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 27, 2023, 10:00:47 AM
I understand, but can Israel or the US refute the claims? Do the bodies need to be laid out in the streets for a proper count? Say it was half that amount, does it matter to most people? The ministry released ages, genders and ID numbers. Now, of course Hamas lies, but we should believe what? Israel? Who has no way of counting? Should we believe the pictures of dead people? Of entire neighborhoods flattened in Gaza? Should we ignore the widespread reporting that Israel still bombs the South, where the civilians were told to go to 'be safe'?
As for the hospital claims, boy that would be awful convenient for Israel to claim... you know, since they routinely blow hospitals up. What better cover than to say, "Well that's where their bases are! We have intelligence!". Yet, there is no proof. There is no occupying force giving us pictures of these claims. We are supposed to take Israel at their word (despite their extreme propensity to lie to the world), but if Hamas counts bodies... HELL NAW!
You see the problem here, right?
Lawdog and I weren't objecting to casualty counts, or at least I wasnt, just the "only 13 Hamas soldiers" killed. I don't find the casualty counts to be artificial, hence why I said it was horrible and sobering. I find the reporting of minimal Hamas casualties, aka the IDF is horrible and incompetent and is just massacring civilians without any actual mission success, to be laughable.
As for Shifa Hospital, I literally said "take of this what you will" and noted that it was a statement made publicly in a press conference without any actions being taken on the site, as opposed to it being leveled and then saying it.
But also, please don't tell me you think the idea/reports of Hamas/similar orgs putting HQs or weapons or personnel in civilian locations like hospitals or schools is just baseless IDF propaganda.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 10:09:49 AM
Lawdog and I weren't objecting to casualty counts, or at least I wasnt, just the "only 13 Hamas soldiers" killed. I don't find the casualty counts to be artificial, hence why I said it was horrible and sobering. I find the reporting of minimal Hamas casualties, aka the IDF is horrible and incompetent and is just massacring civilians without any actual mission success, to be laughable.
As for Shifa Hospital, I literally said "take of this what you will" and noted that it was a statement made publicly in a press conference without any actions being taken on the site, as opposed to it being leveled and then saying it.
But also, please don't tell me you think the idea/reports of Hamas/similar orgs putting HQs or weapons or personnel in civilian locations like hospitals or schools is just baseless IDF propaganda.
I also think the 13 Hamas soldiers killed to be far fetched.
I don't know what to think regarding the claims that bases are under civilian structures, but I'd love proof instead of claims. The IDF has a history of making a claim and pushing that narrative until months or years later when it is finally proven that they just lied for the propaganda at the time. I just have a hard time believing what either side is saying. They're both very untrustworthy.
I will say, that only one side seems to ever get the benefit of the doubt... especially in the Western media.
Quote from: forgetful on October 27, 2023, 09:52:17 AM
In general, I would be hesitant to believe anything in media during a war. Part of war is winning the image battle, which means all sides will flood the media with propaganda.
Not saying any of the above is wrong. Just cautioning trusting anything implicitly during wartime.
Forgetful, you are so right. Many narratives to be told, but which ones are accurate? This is a time when we will be called upon to be fair with each other and think things through. Can we do it? I'm not hopeful, but we shall see.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 27, 2023, 10:00:47 AM
I understand, but can Israel or the US refute the claims? Do the bodies need to be laid out in the streets for a proper count? Say it was half that amount, does it matter to most people? The ministry released ages, genders and ID numbers. Now, of course Hamas lies, but we should believe what? Israel? Who has no way of counting? Should we believe the pictures of dead people? Of entire neighborhoods flattened in Gaza? Should we ignore the widespread reporting that Israel still bombs the South, where the civilians were told to go to 'be safe'?
As for the hospital claims, boy that would be awful convenient for Israel to claim... you know, since they routinely blow hospitals up. What better cover than to say, "Well that's where their bases are! We have intelligence!". Yet, there is no proof. There is no occupying force giving us pictures of these claims. We are supposed to take Israel at their word (despite their extreme propensity to lie to the world), but if Hamas counts bodies... HELL NAW!
You see the problem here, right?
Ah sure, I see da problem. More mushy, stinky brain matter, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 27, 2023, 10:36:40 AM
Ah sure, I see da problem. More mushy, stinky brain matter, hey?
Did you stick a q-tip too far in your ear again?
45 years ago today (from the AP) ...
Oct. 27, 1978: Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin were named winners of the Nobel Peace Prize for their progress toward achieving a Middle East accord.
Which about 3 years later got Sadat assassinated. So then there's that, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 27, 2023, 11:56:06 AM
Which about 3 years later got Sadat assassinated. So then there's that, aina?
Netanyahu got Rabin assassinated
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 09:59:44 AM
Like 500 dead in the hospital "attack" in which the hospital suffered no significant structural damage?
Does that one anecdote invalidate all previous confirmed statistics?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2023, 12:14:08 PM
Does that one anecdote invalidate all previous confirmed statistics?
It calls into question the 13 soldiers, at least. Don't take that as pro-war, just that don't trust either side in a war to give you the accurate number of soldiers/civilians killed.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 27, 2023, 12:45:34 PM
It calls into question the 13 soldiers, at least. Don't take that as pro-war, just that don't trust either side in a war to give you the accurate number of soldiers/civilians killed.
Does it call into question all past numbers reported by Hamas that UN and US intelligence has deemed reasonable?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2023, 12:54:20 PM
Does it call into question all past numbers reported by Hamas that UN and US intelligence has deemed reasonable?
I am talking about the 13 soldiers. President Biden doesnt believe Hamas' numbers.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2023, 12:54:20 PM
Does it call into question all past numbers reported by Hamas that UN and US intelligence has deemed reasonable?
No. But I'm referring to what they've been spreading in "wartime" when the entire world is watching, not random skirmishes or response attacks.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 27, 2023, 10:16:18 AM
I also think the 13 Hamas soldiers killed to be far fetched.
I don't know what to think regarding the claims that bases are under civilian structures, but I'd love proof instead of claims. The IDF has a history of making a claim and pushing that narrative until months or years later when it is finally proven that they just lied for the propaganda at the time. I just have a hard time believing what either side is saying. They're both very untrustworthy.
I will say, that only one side seems to ever get the benefit of the doubt... especially in the Western media.
The UN has found evidence of weapons and Hamas activity in schools and hospitals. Multiple times, including in a UN sponsored Gaza school. I'm pretty sure Hamas actually admitted it a few years ago and said "it was an accident."
NATO published a study on Hamas/PIJ and their human shield usage, including hospitals/schools/churches about a decade, collected from variety of intelligence sources and banks of evidence.
Maybe one that gets the Western media benefit in this cause is cause it's a sovereign nation and not a terrorist organization?
Again, this isn't Israel vs the Palestinian people and media coverage. It's Israel vs Hamas. Both sides have done terrible things but one side has done tons of great and admirable things in the global sphere and has a thriving population...the other is a terrorist organization that happily subjugates a vulnerable, deprived group of people for the benefit of their goals
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 01:10:18 PM
No. But I'm referring to what they've been spreading in "wartime" when the entire world is watching, not random skirmishes or response attacks.
The UN has found evidence of weapons and Hamas activity in schools and hospitals. Multiple times, including in a UN sponsored Gaza school. I'm pretty sure Hamas actually admitted it a few years ago and said "it was an accident."
NATO published a study on Hamas/PIJ and their human shield usage, including hospitals/schools/churches about a decade, collected from variety of intelligence sources and banks of evidence.
Maybe one that gets the Western media benefit in this cause is cause it's a sovereign nation and not a terrorist organization?
Again, this isn't Israel vs the Palestinian people and media coverage. It's Israel vs Hamas. Both sides have done terrible things but one side has done tons of great and admirable things in the global sphere and has a thriving population...the other is a terrorist organization that happily subjugates a vulnerable, deprived group of people for the benefit of their goals
I don't dispute that Hamas uses human shields, nor do I dispute that their network includes various civilian infrastructure for their headquarters. I just want there to be some sort of proof that they exist and that it is worth dropping bombs and artillery on civilian infrastructure to potentially eliminate underground bases when you and I both know that the people that suffer will be the Palestinian civilians. There has to be an easier way to reach and eliminate underground Hamas bases than dropping ordinance on the heads of civilians in churches, hospitals, and schools.
The point is both sides lie to the media constantly. Neither should be believed.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 01:10:18 PM
No. But I'm referring to what they've been spreading in "wartime" when the entire world is watching, not random skirmishes or response attacks.
The UN has found evidence of weapons and Hamas activity in schools and hospitals. Multiple times, including in a UN sponsored Gaza school. I'm pretty sure Hamas actually admitted it a few years ago and said "it was an accident."
NATO published a study on Hamas/PIJ and their human shield usage, including hospitals/schools/churches about a decade, collected from variety of intelligence sources and banks of evidence.
Maybe one that gets the Western media benefit in this cause is cause it's a sovereign nation and not a terrorist organization?
Again, this isn't Israel vs the Palestinian people and media coverage. It's Israel vs Hamas. Both sides have done terrible things but one side has done tons of great and admirable things in the global sphere and has a thriving population...the other is a terrorist organization that happily subjugates a vulnerable, deprived group of people for the benefit of their goals
What bugs me about the Human shields argument is that even though it has been widely know to happen, that doesn't change the fact that noncombatants are still protected members in the laws of war. The war crime justification to commit another war crime makes it feel like that side is more than willing to sink to the level of the terrorist group that is being denounced. Does that not also suggest they are committing terrorism as well?
I am not calling the IDF terrorists, but it gets more difficult with each passing day not to see the behavioral similarities.
It goes back to the justification of collective punishment. We have decided that we are ok with it I suppose (Or at least our admin has, despite public sentiment).
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 27, 2023, 01:48:58 PM
I don't dispute that Hamas uses human shields, nor do I dispute that their network includes various civilian infrastructure for their headquarters. I just want there to be some sort of proof that they exist and that it is worth dropping bombs and artillery on civilian infrastructure to potentially eliminate underground bases when you and I both know that the people that suffer will be the Palestinian civilians. There has to be an easier way to reach and eliminate underground Hamas bases than dropping ordinance on the heads of civilians in churches, hospitals, and schools.
The point is both sides lie to the media constantly. Neither should be believed.
It is not the Israelis' job to provide the refugees comfort and shelter. It is the job of the Government of Gaza ... which would be Hamas.
The use of human shields is a war crime ... Geneva Convention Article 28
Hamas does this, not Isreal
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28
Geneva Convention Article 29 - If is the job of Hamas to move "protect persons" from a war zone. Not Isreal.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-29
When the ground war starts (now?), a lot of civilians will die. All of them will be the responsibility of Hamas, and Hamas will be committing war against them, not Israel. When the ground war starts, mistakes will be made. Friendly fire casualty, errand ordinances, and plan bad intel. Think "fog of war."
These mistakes will result in the death of civilians, including women and children. These are not war crimes.
It's not the IDF putting these civilians in harm's way but Hamas. They hide behind these poor unfortunates because they know we care about human life but they do not. They refuse to let some escape to a safer zone for propaganda knowing some will blame Israel for the casualties while firing from behind these helpless shields.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 27, 2023, 02:28:42 PM
What bugs me about the Human shields argument is that even though it has been widely know to happen, that doesn't change the fact that noncombatants are still protected members in the laws of war. The war crime justification to commit another war crime makes it feel like that side is more than willing to sink to the level of the terrorist group that is being denounced. Does that not also suggest they are committing terrorism as well?
I am not calling the IDF terrorists, but it gets more difficult with each passing day not to see the behavioral similarities.
It goes back to the justification of collective punishment. We have decided that we are ok with it I suppose (Or at least our admin has, despite public sentiment).
There is no moral equivalence.
Any outrage you have should be directed at Hamas for starting this and not doing enough to protect their citizens.
All Gazan deaths are the fault of Hamas.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 27, 2023, 03:11:18 PM
It is not the Israelis' job to provide the refugees comfort and shelter. It is the job of the Government of Gaza ... which would be Hamas.
The use of human shields is a war crime ... Geneva Convention Article 28
Hamas does this, not Isreal
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28
Geneva Convention Article 29 - If is the job of Hamas to move "protect persons" from a war zone. Not Isreal.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-29
When the ground war starts (now?), a lot of civilians will die. All of them will be the responsibility of Hamas, and Hamas will be committing war against them, not Israel. When the ground war starts, mistakes will be made. Friendly fire casualty, errand ordinances, and plan bad intel. Think "fog of war."
These mistakes will result in the death of civilians, including women and children. These are not war crimes.
"stop hitting yourself"
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 27, 2023, 03:12:06 PM
It's not the IDF putting these civilians in harm's way but Hamas. They hide behind these poor unfortunates because they know we care about human life but they do not. They refuse to let some escape to a safer zone for propaganda knowing some will blame Israel for the casualties while firing from behind these helpless shields.
Surely, you see the irony here.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 27, 2023, 03:15:56 PM
There is no moral equivalence.
Any outrage you have should be directed at Hamas for starting this and not doing enough to protect their citizens.
All Gazan deaths are the fault of Hamas.
That's your twisted point of view, and you're welcome to it.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 27, 2023, 03:15:56 PM
There is no moral equivalence.
Any outrage you have should be directed at Hamas for starting this and not doing enough to protect their citizens.
All Gazan deaths are the fault of Hamas.
They're concerned Heisy. Especially because of tbe wonderful human rights record and treatment of minorities in Arab states. It's interesting but I don't recall a single major protest at our elite colleges and universities about the Kurds or Uyghurs. Or our trans community up in arms about how they're treated in tbe Middle East other than Israel. But these same people are very, very, worried about the Gazan Palestinians.
Heisy, If I was in charge there would not be another Iranian regime attack on American airbases. I would have a lovely conversation with the Supreme Leader as well as that piece of garbage prick who for some reason was allowed to speak in our country at the UN. I would assure both of them we need this to stop, talk about another nuclear deal, Persian rice recipes or what have you, and blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile some components in my 5 point plan would be at a full go. The result would not be enjoyable for any of them or be exhilarating for that turd Cornell prof.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 27, 2023, 03:34:38 PM
They're concerned Heisy. Especially because of tbe wonderful human rights record and treatment of minorities in Arab states. It's interesting but I don't recall a single major protest at our elite colleges and universities about the Kurds or Uyghurs. Or our trans community up in arms about how they're treated in tbe Middle East other than Israel. But these same people are very, very, worried about the Gazan Palestinians.
Heisy, If I was in charge there would not be another Iranian regime attack on American airbases. I would have a lovely conversation with the Supreme Leader as well as that piece of garbage prick who for some reason was allowed to speak in our country at the UN. I would assure both of them we need this to stop, talk about another nuclear deal, Persian rice recipes or what have you, and blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile some components in my 5 point plan would be at a full go. The result would not be enjoyable for any of them or be exhilarating for that turd Cornell prof.
Can we at least hear one of your 5 points on a Friday? Release one each week until basketball season is in full swing?
1. Nuke everybody bad while keeping 100% of the nuclear fallout away from everybody good.
2. Hunt down any Hamas who escaped before they were nuked, put them in a lead-lined room, and then nuke the room.
3. Repeat with Hezbollah and all other terrorist scumbags.
4. Threaten leaders of all Middle East nations that they await the same fate if they ever so much as call Bibi a poo-poo head.
5. Nuke Iran again, just to make sure.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 27, 2023, 03:34:38 PM
They're concerned Heisy. Especially because of tbe wonderful human rights record and treatment of minorities in Arab states. It's interesting but I don't recall a single major protest at our elite colleges and universities about the Kurds or Uyghurs. Or our trans community up in arms about how they're treated in tbe Middle East other than Israel. But these same people are very, very, worried about the Gazan Palestinians.
Heisy, If I was in charge there would not be another Iranian regime attack on American airbases. I would have a lovely conversation with the Supreme Leader as well as that piece of garbage prick who for some reason was allowed to speak in our country at the UN. I would assure both of them we need this to stop, talk about another nuclear deal, Persian rice recipes or what have you, and blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile some components in my 5 point plan would be at a full go. The result would not be enjoyable for any of them or be exhilarating for that turd Cornell prof.
A quick google shows that there indeed are plenty of examples of Uygher and Kurdish solidarity protests at US universities. But that sort of due diligence doesn't help your narrative.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 27, 2023, 03:41:41 PM
Can we at least hear one of your 5 points on a Friday? Release one each week until basketball season is in full swing?
I need to gear up fo MU hoops lawdog and don't want to upset the patty-cake people here. Let's just say darkness has a funny way of ending threats.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 27, 2023, 03:49:18 PM
A quick google shows that there indeed are plenty of examples of Uygher and Kurdish solidarity protests at US universities. But that sort of due diligence doesn't help your narrative.
I said major protests like we see now.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 27, 2023, 03:15:56 PM
There is no moral equivalence.
Any outrage you have should be directed at Hamas for starting this and not doing enough to protect their citizens.
All Gazan deaths are the fault of Hamas.
So your theory is that all war deaths are the fault of whomever "starts" the war? That the other combatant has no moral responsibility to minimize civilian deaths in any way? Assuming you are Christian, is that consistent with what you were taught to believe?
Quote from: MU82 on October 27, 2023, 03:48:04 PM
1. Nuke everybody bad while keeping 100% of the nuclear fallout away from everybody good.
2. Hunt down any Hamas who escaped before they were nuked, put them in a lead-lined room, and then nuke the room.
3. Repeat with Hezbollah and all other terrorist scumbags.
4. Threaten leaders of all Middle East nations that they await the same fate if they ever so much as call Bibi a poo-poo head.
5. Nuke Iran again, just to make sure.
Nope. But I'm pro hard power as we all should be.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 27, 2023, 03:49:18 PM
A quick google shows that there indeed are plenty of examples of Uygher and Kurdish solidarity protests at US universities. But that sort of due diligence doesn't help your narrative.
Do any of these protests call for the end of China or Turkey? Are they saying that China or Turkey should not exist?
Are they threatening Chinese or Turkish students?
More evidence of soft, stinky matter between the ears of the usual cast of characters, aina?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 27, 2023, 03:55:59 PM
Do any of these protests call for the end of China or Turkey? Are they saying that China or Turkey should not exist?
Are they threatening Chinese or Turkish students?
I have no idea. But again, don't let outliers shape your view that something is more systemic than it actually is.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 27, 2023, 03:49:18 PM
A quick google shows that there indeed are plenty of examples of Uygher and Kurdish solidarity protests at US universities. But that sort of due diligence doesn't help your narrative.
Also "there's bad people in certain places therefore their civilians don't deserve our sympathy" isn't really the gotcha you think it is. It just goes back to what was previously stated, which is abuser behavior of "you're making me do this".
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 27, 2023, 03:57:19 PM
More evidence of soft, stinky matter between the ears of the usual cast of characters, aina?
#shutupanddrill
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 27, 2023, 03:51:53 PM
I said major protests like we see now.
You mean like the ones you see on cable news? Or your twitter feed?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on October 27, 2023, 03:33:28 PM
That's your twisted point of view, and you're welcome to it.
Yes, this is my point of view, and I'm perfectly happy to promote and explain it. It reflects on me, and I'm happy it does.
If you think this viewpoint is twisted, implying you believe the opposite, then you are welcome to explain yourself. And this also reflects on you.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 27, 2023, 04:01:00 PM
Yes, this is my point of view, and I'm perfectly happy to promote and explain it. It reflects on me, and I'm happy it does.
If you think this viewpoint is twisted, implying you believe the opposite, then you are welcome to explain yourself. And this also reflects on you.
(https://i.giphy.com/media/oaZk0WNSO7fXi/giphy.webp)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 27, 2023, 03:57:19 PM
More evidence of soft, stinky matter between the ears of the usual cast of characters, aina?
We wouldn't have these problems if not for baby boomers
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 27, 2023, 03:53:28 PM
Nope. But I'm pro hard power as we all should be.
Sorry, Muggs. Next time I'll include more nukes!
Quote from: JWags85 on October 27, 2023, 01:10:18 PM
No. But I'm referring to what they've been spreading in "wartime" when the entire world is watching, not random skirmishes or response attacks.
Appreciate the clarification
Quote from: MU82 on October 27, 2023, 04:25:18 PM
Sorry, Muggs. Next time I'll include more nukes!
I will concede I've become much more anachronistic and vengeful after reading some of the comments in this thread. Let me tell you something MU82....it wouldn't be a good weekend for Hamas, the Iranian regime, the Quds, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad if my plan was followed. I'll just leave it at that. They're the scum of the earth.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 27, 2023, 03:51:53 PM
I said major protests like we see now.
Like this?
https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=19022
(https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=19022)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/11/24/uyghur-genocide-university-divestment-movement-is-here/
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/11/24/uyghur-genocide-university-divestment-movement-is-here/)
These are national movements. And there are many many more?
While we are playing whataboutism, where was your and others calls for Universities to denounce statements related to Chinese students supporting the genocide of the uygers, and big donors pulling donations because of their lack of denouncing the massacre of an entire people.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/03/18/chinese-and-uyghur-students-clash-cornell-university
(https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/03/18/chinese-and-uyghur-students-clash-cornell-university)
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 27, 2023, 06:32:14 PM
I will concede I've become much more anachronistic and vengeful after reading some of the comments in this thread. Let me tell you something MU82....it wouldn't be a good weekend for Hamas, the Iranian regime, the Quds, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad if my plan was followed. I'll just leave it at that. They're the scum of the earth.
I guess they can breathe easily, then, because you don't have the position of power necessary to get your plan followed. At least I don't think so. You're not Tucker or Kanye or Popovich, are you?
And again for the record, I am far more hawkish for Israel than many Scoopers are. I'm just not all "agree with my 5-point plan, which I won't even reveal, or you love Hamas."
Dave Chappelle Laments 'Nightmare' Facing Israelis and Palestinians
The comedian, whose remarks about the Israel-Hamas war last week made headlines, returned to the subject at a show in North Carolina.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/arts/dave-chappelle-israel-hamas.html
Dave Chappelle was about 24 minutes into his set on Wednesday night in Raleigh, N.C., when he briefly touched on remarks he had made about the Israel-Hamas conflict at a show in Boston last week that had led to cheers, some walkouts and headlines.
"Right now, I'm in trouble because the Jewish community is upset," Mr. Chappelle told a packed crowd of more than 20,000 people at PNC Arena. "But I cannot express this enough: No matter what you read about that show in Boston, you will never see quotation marks around anything I said. They don't know what I said."
"It's all hearsay," said the comedian, who, like many others, requires audience members to surrender their smartphones at shows.
---
Mr. Chappelle, a satirist whose reputation for diving into polarizing topics has increased in the latter stages of his comedic career, returned to the Israel-Hamas conflict near the end of his set Wednesday.
"The other night, I said something about Palestine in Boston and got misquoted all over the world," Mr. Chappelle said. "And I will not repeat what I said."
A woman in the crowd responded by shouting, "Free Palestine."
"Please, please, miss," Mr. Chappelle responded. "Listen. Don't start it up or I'm going to be in the news cycle for another week. This thing that's happening in the Middle East is bigger than everybody."
Sounds like he censored himself.
Jerk should eat the brown matter between his ears, aina?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 27, 2023, 06:32:14 PM
I will concede I've become much more anachronistic and vengeful after reading some of the comments in this thread. Let me tell you something MU82....it wouldn't be a good weekend for Hamas, the Iranian regime, the Quds, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad if my plan was followed. I'll just leave it at that. They're the scum of the earth.
Any other bad guys on other continents you take aim at?
Quote from: MU82 on October 27, 2023, 04:25:18 PM
Sorry, Muggs. Next time I'll include more nukes!
You also forgot the
Steal Their Oil and
Subjugate Their People points
Fixed the typo for you len
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 27, 2023, 07:51:30 PM
You also forgot the Steal Thier Oil and Subjugate Their People points
Who's Thier?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2023, 07:42:33 PM
Any other bad guys on other continents you take aim at?
There are horrific despots all over the world.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 08:08:09 AM
They're horrific despots all over the world.
Agreed.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/02/19/42E8B46000000578-4753828-President_Trump_has_been_spending_many_of_his_weekends_at_his_Fl-a-104_1501699417233.jpg)
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 08:08:09 AM
They're horrific despots all over the world.
Which ones should we introduce to darkness?
Quote from: 🏀 on October 28, 2023, 08:39:49 AM
Agreed.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/02/19/42E8B46000000578-4753828-President_Trump_has_been_spending_many_of_his_weekends_at_his_Fl-a-104_1501699417233.jpg)
Such a predictable response. TDS.
When on the defensive revert to " you Know who"
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on October 28, 2023, 08:52:46 AM
Which ones should we introduce to darkness?
Not the ones that are our allies
You can all let me worry about those who have no business being alive and should be dismissed from the planet.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 10:22:49 AM
You can all let me worry about those who have no business being alive and should be dismissed from the planet.
Do you think the Jesuits who taught you would approve of your 5 point plan? What about the big man himself?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 28, 2023, 10:29:07 AM
Do you think the Jesuits who taught you would approve of your 5 point plan? What about the big man himself?
I'm a spiritual person but not religious. I will not be dissuaded that there are evil people in this world who deserve nothing but the worst.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 10:34:35 AM
I'm a spiritual person but not religious. I will not be dissuaded that there are evil people in this world who deserve nothing but the worst.
And if it means killing thousands or millions of innocent people to give those evil people what they deserve, thems the breaks!
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 10:34:35 AM
I'm a spiritual person but not religious. I will not be dissuaded that there are evil people in this world who deserve nothing but the worst.
Give us a number. How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice (murder) to get these tyrants?
Quote from: Jockey on October 28, 2023, 12:32:50 PM
Give us a number. How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice (murder) to get these tyrants?
2:1 ratio is acceptable to the American public. That was the terrorist: civilian death ratio in Fallujah
Quote from: Jockey on October 28, 2023, 12:32:50 PM
Give us a number. How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice (murder) to get these tyrants?
I would have to do the math....there are quite a few scumbags infesting the globe. Some innocent people would die, as in all wars, but it would not be anywhere close to "millions". Or even many thousands.
It would save millions of lives. Kaiser Sozeing the entire Iranian regime, along with their terrorist proxies, in spectacular fashion mind you, would also be a deterrent for other assheads. There's no fear from this filth right now and that's part of the problem.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 03:32:23 PM
I would have to do the math....there are quite a few scumbags infesting the globe. Some innocent people would die, as in all wars, but it would not be anywhere close to "millions". Or even many thousands.
It would save millions of lives. Kaiser Sozeing the entire Iranian regime, along with their terrorist proxies, in spectacular fashion mind you, would also be a deterrent for other assheads. There's no fear from this filth right now and that's part of the problem.
What would "spectacular fashion" entail?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 03:32:23 PM
I would have to do the math....there are quite a few scumbags infesting the globe. Some innocent people would die, as in all wars, but it would not be anywhere close to "millions". Or even many thousands.
It would save millions of lives. Kaiser Sozeing the entire Iranian regime, along with their terrorist proxies, in spectacular fashion mind you, would also be a deterrent for other assheads. There's no fear from this filth right now and that's part of the problem.
Any concern for power vacuums left by eliminating all these folks?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 10:34:35 AM
I'm a spiritual person but not religious. I will not be dissuaded that there are evil people in this world who deserve nothing but the worst.
This is the mentality of the people you brandish as evil too. They think that there are evil people in this world who deserve nothing but the worst.
Such a mentality is quite honestly the cause of all global problems.
Quote from: forgetful on October 28, 2023, 04:32:47 PM
This is the mentality of the people you brandish as evil too. They think that there are evil people in this world who deserve nothing but the worst.
Such a mentality is quite honestly the cause of all global problems.
This is honestly absurd.. If you do not think that people who burn babies alive are evil, or that they think we're evil so that's why they did it or some other bshite, you're not capable of rational thought.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 04:39:38 PM
This is honestly absurd.. If you do not think that people who burn babies alive are evil, or that they think we're evil so that's why they did it or some other bcrape, you're not capable of rational thought.
I do think people who would do such a thing is evil. What do you think happens when you drop a nuke on a population (as you have suggested in this thread)?
But it is clear you did not get the sentiment. We'll try it another way.
For essentially all history, atrocities in conflict have been justified by claiming the other side was evil and deserved nothing but the worst. That they were subhuman. If you are unaware of this, and unaware that your language champions such ideology, then I would recommend taking a deep breath, and a step back, and analyze what you are saying a bit deeper.
Quote from: forgetful on October 28, 2023, 05:36:39 PM
I do think people who would do such a thing is evil. What do you think happens when you drop a nuke on a population (as you have suggested in this thread)?
But it is clear you did not get the sentiment. We'll try it another way.
For essentially all history, atrocities in conflict have been justified by claiming the other side was evil and deserved nothing but the worst. That they were subhuman. If you are unaware of this, and unaware that your language champions such ideology, then I would recommend taking a deep breath, and a step back, and analyze what you are saying a bit deeper.
I don't think you're accurate here with all due respect. There are wide ranges within all the conflicts in human history.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 04:39:38 PM
This is honestly absurd.. If you do not think that people who burn babies alive are evil, or that they think we're evil so that's why they did it or some other bcrape, you're not capable of rational thought.
People who lynched blacks were evil. The near total genocide of many Indian tribes was evil.
In times past, you would have been calling for the spectacular elimination of the American govt.
To be totally honest, you are just flat out crazy.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 28, 2023, 03:32:23 PM
I would have to do the math....there are quite a few scumbags infesting the globe. Some innocent people would die, as in all wars, but it would not be anywhere close to "millions". Or even many thousands.
It would save millions of lives. Kaiser Sozeing the entire Iranian regime, along with their terrorist proxies, in spectacular fashion mind you, would also be a deterrent for other assheads. There's no fear from this filth right now and that's part of the problem.
The most conservative estimates I have seen for total casualties in the Iraq War have been around 200,000. I've seen them as high as 500,000 vast majority of those being civilians. You are advocating for an invasion of Iran, a country with over 3x the amount of people that Iraq had before the war and a much more powerful military. Youre living in a Tom Clancy novel if you think that an invasion of Iran could be done without hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 28, 2023, 08:50:10 PM
The most conservative estimates I have seen for total casualties in the Iraq War have been around 200,000. I've seen them as high as 500,000 vast majority of those being civilians. You are advocating for an invasion of Iran, a country with over 3x the amount of people that Iraq had before the war and a much more powerful military. Youre living in a Tom Clancy novel if you think that an invasion of Iran could be done without hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties
He's made it clear that civilian casualties aren't a concern.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 28, 2023, 04:14:53 PM
What would "spectacular fashion" entail?
That's one of the 5 points. If he told you, he'd have to add a 6th point, and that would lead to your termination.
Israel will be criticized no matter what they do. I don't recall when we have been at war when our cabinet and media was droning about war etiquette or restraint on an hourly basis.. Did that happen in Fallujah? The more I read many your comments, the more I am inclined to amend my 5-point plan (which involves hard power) to a 7 point plan which would restore peace and save lives unlike anything we have ever seen before. It would be messy early but then things would shake out very comfortably for the Western World and in particular the United States.
Quote from: MU82 on October 28, 2023, 10:22:50 PM
That's one of the 5 points. If he told you, he'd have to add a 6th point, and that would lead to your termination.
It's all a marketing campaign by Muggsy.
(https://beerstreetjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/Wild-Heaven-5-Points-can-1536x1024.jpg)
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 29, 2023, 07:45:36 AM
It's all a marketing campaign by Muggsy.
(https://beerstreetjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/Wild-Heaven-5-Points-can-1536x1024.jpg)
Lawdog,
I have capped myself at the Ultimate Thanks For Playing 10 Point Solution but some of these people are testing my calm and calculated blueprint.
Quote from: Jockey on October 28, 2023, 09:37:46 PM
He's made it clear that civilian casualties aren't a concern.
Not true at all.
I discovered Muggsy's plan
https://youtu.be/tO5sxLapAts?si=4FszWN23by9V_JhX
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 29, 2023, 07:56:20 AM
Lawdog,
I have capped myself at the Ultimate Thanks For Playing 10 Point Solution but some of these people are testing my calm and calculated blueprint.
I don't even know what that means. Do we need to send someone for a wellness check?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 29, 2023, 07:41:18 AM
Israel will be criticized no matter what they do.
Including by Bibi himself.
From the NYT 3 hours ago:
In what many Israelis viewed as an extraordinary statement in the midst of war, Netanyahu's account on X, formerly Twitter, posted early Sunday that "at no stage was Prime Minister Netanyahu warned of war intentions on the part of Hamas. On the contrary, the assessment of the entire security echelon, including the head of military intelligence and the head of Shin Bet, was that Hamas was deterred and was interested in an arrangement." The post was later deleted.Then an update an hour later:
Following a furious backlash, Netanyahu apologized for his earlier post blaming the security establishment for the failure to anticipate the Oct. 7 Hamas attack. In a new post on X that showed an unusual level of contrition, the Israeli prime minister wrote: "I was wrong." He expressed support for the heads of the military and the security agencies, and for commanders and soldiers in the field, adding: "Together we will win."Apparently Bibi didn't get the "never admit a mistake" and "never ever ever ever apologize" memos.
Dodds was right
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 29, 2023, 07:41:18 AM
Israel will be criticized no matter what they do. I don't recall when we have been at war when our cabinet and media was droning about war etiquette or restraint on an hourly basis.. Did that happen in Fallujah? The more I read many your comments, the more I am inclined to amend my 5-point plan (which involves hard power) to a 7 point plan which would restore peace and save lives unlike anything we have ever seen before. It would be messy early but then things would shake out very comfortably for the Western World and in particular the United States.
I remember plenty of criticism and prortests throughout the course of the War in Iraq
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 29, 2023, 10:02:51 AM
I remember plenty of criticism and prortests throughout the course of the War in Iraq
Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea...
A country had 1500 civilians slaightered to death, many in their homes. 30+ Americans were a part of the horror. This wasn't part of a "war", it was a despicable terrorist attack. Every single country if they were in the same position would respond. And yet within a day or sooner, the goalposts totally shifted and it became Israel is an oppressor, there are two sides to this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh.....wrong.
What we are leaning is antisemitism and Jew hatred is ubiquitous, especially on college campuses. Ask yourself if 1500 fill in the blank people were murdered in this fashion, whether or not we would have worldwide protests essentially supporting or justifying the murderers? It would not happen.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 29, 2023, 10:35:35 AM
Vietnam
Wait, there were Vietnam War protests? Who knew?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 29, 2023, 10:49:57 AM
What we are leaning is antisemitism and Jew hatred is ubiquitous, especially on college campuses.
What we've also learned is that powerful people who have made many anti-Semitic comments, done anti-Semitic things, supported anti-Semites or accepted support from anti-Semites (or all of the above) now claim to support Israel.
For those willing to open their minds, it's a reminder that Israel and Judaism are not the same thing -- something I've learned and been reminded of over and over and over again during my 6 decades as an American Jew.
But you go ahead and keep labeling as Jew-haters everybody who doesn't line up 100% with your viewpoint. That's really helpful to the conversation.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 29, 2023, 10:49:57 AM
A country had 1500 civilians slaightered to death, many in their homes. 30+ Americans were a part of the horror. This wasn't part of a "war", it was a despicable terrorist attack. Every single country if they were in the same position would respond. And yet within a day or sooner, the goalposts totally shifted and it became Israel is an oppressor, there are two sides to this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh.....wrong.
What we are leaning is antisemitism and Jew hatred is ubiquitous, especially on college campuses. Ask yourself if 1500 fill in the blank people were murdered in this fashion, whether or not we would have worldwide protests essentially supporting or justifying the murderers? It would not happen.
What we are actually learning is that dullards think the history of this conflict started on 10/7.
"Hard Power: The True Story of How One Man Wiped out Islamist Terrorism, Eliminated Antisemitism, Solved America's Energy Needs and Brought Lasting Peace to the Middle East."
That is only 4 points.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 29, 2023, 12:03:40 PM
"Hard Power: The True Story of How One Man Wiped out Islamist Terrorism, Eliminated Antisemitism, Solved America's Energy Needs and Brought Lasting Peace to the Middle East."
Unfortunately Peace in the Middle East is near impossible as islam is incompatible with Peace. Warring factions regularly kill each other over a disagreement on Prophets and the Quaran gives Carte Blanche to deceive, enslave, kill non-believers.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 02:19:45 PM
Unfortunately Peace in the Middle East is near impossible as islam is incompatible with Peace. Warring factions regularly kill each other over a disagreement on Prophets and the Quaran gives Carte Blanche to deceive, enslave, kill non-believers.
Islamophobia. It's like racism!
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 02:19:45 PM
Unfortunately Peace in the Middle East is near impossible as islam is incompatible with Peace. Warring factions regularly kill each other over a disagreement on Prophets and the Quaran gives Carte Blanche to deceive, enslave, kill non-believers.
Source?
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 02:19:45 PM
Unfortunately Peace in the Middle East is near impossible as islam is incompatible with Peace. Warring factions regularly kill each other over a disagreement on Prophets and the Quaran gives Carte Blanche to deceive, enslave, kill non-believers.
And the bible says you can sell your daughters into slavery and stone to death people of other religions.
All the magic books are fucking stupid.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 02:19:45 PM
Unfortunately Peace in the Middle East is near impossible as islam is incompatible with Peace. Warring factions regularly kill each other over a disagreement on Prophets and the Quaran gives Carte Blanche to deceive, enslave, kill non-believers.
You are such an easily manipulated dullard.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 02:19:45 PM
Unfortunately Peace in the Middle East is near impossible as islam is incompatible with Peace. Warring factions regularly kill each other over a disagreement on Prophets and the Quaran gives Carte Blanche to deceive, enslave, kill non-believers.
Now do Northern Ireland.
Then do India.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 29, 2023, 02:27:03 PM
Source?
Read the later chapters of the Quaran where Muhammed changes his tone from living compatibly with all creeds until Islam became dominant and then he writes that non-believers should be converted or put to the sword.
in reply to the query about the Bible allowing selling daughters as slaves and stoning people, I thought everyone knew that the New Testament changed that way of thinking since those practices are not observed by Christians.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 03:04:11 PM
Read the later chapters of the Quaran where Muhammed changes his tone from living compatibly with all creeds until Islam became dominant and then he writes that non-believers should be converted or put to the sword.
in reply to the query about the Bible allowing selling daughters as slaves and stoning people, I thought everyone knew that the New Testament changed that way of thinking since those practices are not observed by Christians.
There's context needed in the oft quoted passage:
https://medium.com/@StudioArabiya/does-the-quran-really-say-to-kill-the-disbelievers-c8a646774b45 (https://medium.com/@StudioArabiya/does-the-quran-really-say-to-kill-the-disbelievers-c8a646774b45)
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 03:04:11 PMI thought everyone knew that the New Testament changed that way of thinking since those practices are not observed by Christians.
Good thing there are no problematic passages in the NT.
Oh ...
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. - Matthew 10:34
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.- Luke 19:27
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. - Hebrews 9:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.- Ephesians 6:5
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. -Corinthians 14:34-35
I can do more, if you like.
That's one interpretation, Law Dog, but unfortunately that is not the beliefs of many radical Islamists
I have read that Mohammed changed those verses after Islam became dominent and were not written when Islam was not the majority but added later on.
Happy to be educated if I am wrong
Our founding fathers understood the destruction of religion and its why we have separation of church and state despite what the dingbats holding office think
Quote from: Pakuni on October 29, 2023, 03:33:40 PM
Good thing there are no problematic passages in the NT.
Oh ...
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.
- Luke 19:27
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
- Hebrews 9:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
- Ephesians 6:5
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
-Corinthians 14:34-35
I can do more, if you like.
Not to mention that Christians are happy to refer to the fire and brimstone in the Old Testament if it helps them confirm their narrative of the day, which often is that selective hate is A-OK.
You shall love the Lord, your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. The second connandment is you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
All other laws and prophets flow from these.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 03:33:59 PM
That's one interpretation, Law Dog, but unfortunately that is not the beliefs of many radical Islamists
I have read that Mohammed changed those verses after Islam became dominent and were not written when Islam was not the majority but added later on.
Happy to be educated if I am wrong
I was just debating your statement that the Quran gives carte blanche, to kill non believers, which it does not.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 29, 2023, 03:33:40 PM
Good thing there are no problematic passages in the NT.
Oh ...
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.
- Luke 19:27
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
- Hebrews 9:22[/b]
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
- Ephesians 6:5
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
-Corinthians 14:34-35
I can do more, if you like.
I'll start with this one. What is so problematic? In the early covenant, animal sacrifice was used to purify. The new Covenant it was Jesus' blood which led to forgiveness.
Let's go to Matthew 10:34
In the years leading up to Christ's birth, many Israelites believed the arrival of the Messiah would immediately bring a time of great peace and prosperity to Israel. Even Jesus' disciples may have believed this. Jesus has shown through His teaching and miracles that He is, in fact, the Messiah. Now, though, He wants to help His followers understand that the season of political peace will not come soon.
Instead, His arrival will bring great division to the world. He has come to bring a sword. Jesus is not describing the sword of God's judgment, nor one of military action, or of personal violence. The item Jesus refers to here is the Greek term machairan, most often used for large knives such as those used by fisherman. The main purpose of those blades was to separate different parts of a cut of meat—this is the same term used in the book of Hebrews to depict Scripture's ability to separate truth and error (Hebrews 4:12).
In other words, Jesus' message will naturally create division; this "sword" will divide the world into those who believe in Him and those who do not. His arrival will bring great conflict as those who reject Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God will turn in hatred against those who hear and believe (1 Peter 4:3–4; John 15:18–21), including the members of one's own family.
I actually expect better from you Pak.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 29, 2023, 03:59:41 PM
I actually expect better from you Pak.
I actually expected most people (including you, because I tend to think you're smart) would understand my point.
Alas, I'll explain it.
WellsStreet used a literal interpretation of select passages of the Quran to condemn the entire faith and its followers. One could just as easily handpick phrases from the Bible - even the NT - interpret them literally and do the same for Christianity or Judaism.
What you've done here is offer interpretations of these passages. They may even be correct - I'm not smart enough to know exactly what men living nearly 2,000 years ago meant when writing these. But it is nonetheless an interpretation, one that spins these phrases (and Christianity) in the most favorable light possible. Again, I'm not disagreeing, just noting what you're doing.
My point, though, is that literal readings of either holy book can paint a less-than-flattering and inaccurate picture of the faiths.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 29, 2023, 04:16:38 PM
I actually expected most people (including you, because I tend to think you're smart) would understand my point.
Alas, I'll explain it.
WellsStreet used a literal interpretation of select passages of the Quran to condemn the entire faith and its followers. One could just as easily handpick phrases from the Bible - even the NT - interpret them literally and do the same for Christianity or Judaism.
What you've done here is offer interpretations of these passages. They may even be correct - I'm not smart enough to know exactly what men living nearly 2,000 years ago meant when writing these. But it is nonetheless an interpretation, one that spins these phrases (and Christianity) in the most favorable light possible. Again, I'm not disagreeing, just noting what you're doing.
My point, though, is that literal readings of either holy book can paint a less-than-flattering and inaccurate picture of the faiths.
I misinterpreted your point, my apologies. I thought you were going for the point that all religion is bad.
From the NYT:
As Israel's war against Hamas has become an animating force in the Republican presidential primary, Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida has cast himself as a staunch defender of the Jewish state, sending taxpayer-funded charter flights to rescue Americans stranded in Israel, calling for harsh measures against the civilians of Gaza and ordering pro-Palestinian groups on public university campuses in his state to disband.
Those efforts, as well as a series of bills he has signed to combat antisemitism in Florida in the past, have won him attention from the news media and praise from some Republican voters.
But Mr. DeSantis has earned fewer plaudits for his response to a series of neo-Nazi demonstrations that have taken place in his state over the last two years. The hateful displays have included masked men marching and chanting "Jews get the rope" and banners with swastikas hung from highway overpasses.
Unlike other prominent Republican politicians in Florida, the governor stayed silent after each incident, making no public statements. When pressed, he has said that he did not wish to draw attention to people he considered provocateurs, and claimed that those calling on him to denounce the groups were trying to "smear" him by association. But his adamant, ongoing refusal to condemn the public activities of neo-Nazis has angered and confused many American Jews while highlighting what critics say is his tendency toward obstinacy. ...
"Look, if you can't say Nazis are bad, which should be the easiest thing in the world to say, then what are you doing?" said (state Rep. Randy) Fine, who is the only Jewish Republican in the State Legislature and was publicly confronted by a neo-Nazi protester this month. "It's important, because Jews are scared."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/desantis-israel-antisemitism.html
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 29, 2023, 04:19:11 PM
I misinterpreted your point, my apologies. I thought you were going for the point that all religion is bad.
All religious extremists are bad.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 29, 2023, 04:30:00 PM
All religious extremists are bad.
Has anyone here said otherwise?
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on October 29, 2023, 03:04:11 PM
Read the later chapters of the Quaran where Muhammed changes his tone from living compatibly with all creeds until Islam became dominant and then he writes that non-believers should be converted or put to the sword.
in reply to the query about the Bible allowing selling daughters as slaves and stoning people, I thought everyone knew that the New Testament changed that way of thinking since those practices are not observed by Christians.
Huh. So the word of god isn't immutable? Or god just changed his/her mind? Or maybe the most current immutable, literal word of god...isn't.
Earlier today, in Chicago's Grant Park ...
The Black Hebrew Israelites (aka Black Jews) battled with the pro-Palestinian protesters in Chicago.
The video shows it got pretty nasty.
https://x.com/JackPosobiec/status/1718728804288303568?s=20
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 29, 2023, 04:53:08 PM
Earlier today, in Chicago's Grant Park ...
The Black Hebrew Israelites (aka Black Jews) battled with the pro-Palestinian protesters in Chicago.
The video shows it got pretty nasty.
https://x.com/JackPosobiec/status/1718728804288303568?s=20
Following Posobiec are you? Surprised since he's a known anti-Semite
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 29, 2023, 04:53:08 PM
Earlier today, in Chicago's Grant Park ...
The Black Hebrew Israelites (aka Black Jews) battled with the pro-Palestinian protesters in Chicago.
The video shows it got pretty nasty.
https://x.com/JackPosobiec/status/1718728804288303568?s=20
Eh. No arrests and no injuries reported.
Also, it was yesterday. Also, it was Millennium Park.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-20231029-w2pzjglp3zdxnpgo3ncyoffxge-story.html
Quote from: Pakuni on October 29, 2023, 05:08:06 PM
Eh. No arrests and no injuries reported.
Also, it was yesterday. Also, it was Millennium Park.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-20231029-w2pzjglp3zdxnpgo3ncyoffxge-story.html
Very cavalier attitude about violence on the streets of Chicago.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 29, 2023, 05:00:39 PM
Following Posobiec are you? Surprised since he's a known anti-Semite
Is the video doctored? Did this not happen?
If the answer is not to both (which it is), the fact that you felt it necessary to mention this reflects on you, not the incident.
(and for the record, I do not follow him. It was in my feed.)
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 29, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
Very cavalier attitude about violence on the streets of Chicago.
I'm more concerned with the real violence in the streets of Chicago - you know, the stuff some people pretend to care about to score political points - than two groups of dopes performatively slapfighting.
But by all means, take a minor occurrence and portray it as a sign of the coming apocalypse. And get your facts wrong along the way. It's where you shine.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 29, 2023, 05:34:44 PM
Is the video doctored? Did this not happen?
If the answer is not to both (which it is), the fact that you felt it necessary to mention this reflects on you, not the incident.
(and for the record, I do not follow him. It was in my feed.)
Given traffic to an anti-Semite that is somehow in your feed reflects on you
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 29, 2023, 04:33:05 PM
Has anyone here said otherwise?
There's people quoting religious texts in a thread about real life, it's concerning.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 29, 2023, 04:53:08 PM
Earlier today, in Chicago's Grant Park ...
The Black Hebrew Israelites (aka Black Jews) battled with the pro-Palestinian protesters in Chicago.
The video shows it got pretty nasty.
https://x.com/JackPosobiec/status/1718728804288303568?s=20
I'm assuming that you don't know anything about the Black Hebrew Israelites movement. Especially since you say aka Black Jews...which is incorrect.
It is a movement that believes that Africans are the actual descendants of tribes of Israel.
They are often accused of, or are viewed as anti-semites. Kyrie Irving tweeted a link to videos from them/their scholars and was accused of anti-semitism and there were calls for him to be kicked out of the NBA.
So, which of the two groups fighting are you against?
Quote from: forgetful on October 29, 2023, 06:39:35 PM
I'm assuming that you don't know anything about the Black Hebrew Israelites movement. Especially since you say aka Black Jews...which is incorrect.
It is a movement that believes that Africans are the actual descendants of tribes of Israel.
They are often accused of, or are viewed as anti-semites. Kyrie Irving tweeted a link to videos from them/their scholars and was accused of anti-semitism and there were calls for him to be kicked out of the NBA.
So, which of the two groups fighting are you against?
Additionally, I don't think the Black Hebrew Israelites are accepted by any well known Israeli/Jewish government or organization.
They're extremists, and they (anecdotally) are proselytizers looking to start a verbal or physical argument. That little slap fight in Chicago with the Palestinian sympathizers was in-character for the Black Hebrew Israelites.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/realignment-iran-biden-obama-michael-doran-tony-badran
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 29, 2023, 08:03:25 PM
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/realignment-iran-biden-obama-michael-doran-tony-badran
The Tablet? Lol.
Anyway the continued desire of some to blame Obama and Biden for this is laughable. Israel has a far right regime in place. One that decided that it didn't need to adhere to agreements Israel willingly made. But also apparently one who decided to completely ignore Gaza security while spending a lot of time and energy trying to consolidate power internally.
Israelis should be furious fort and foremost at Hamas. But they should also have anger at an administration who took their eye off the ball and didn't keep them safe.
Being angry at the United States for any of this is completely misguided.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 29, 2023, 05:39:45 PM
I'm more concerned with the real violence in the streets of Chicago - you know, the stuff some people pretend to care about to score political points - than two groups of dopes performatively slapfighting.
But by all means, take a minor occurrence and portray it as a sign of the coming apocalypse. And get your facts wrong along the way. It's where you shine.
My concern with all these protests, be this one, Minneapolis, Detroit, Skokie, Staten Island, etc, is the lack of a proper police presence.
Cornell has 22,000 students. 20% or 4,000 are Jewish.
Cornell's Kosher Dining Hall (104 West) is now on lockdown, and Jewish students are scared to leave their rooms.
The Cornell Police, State Police, and the FBI have all been alerted, and police are currently stationed at 104 West.
It will take more than strongly worded statements for the administration to alleviate the legitimate fears of 4,000 students.
They cannot come back tomorrow and Tuesday when nothing happens, no one is arrested, and announced "all clear."
----
https://nypost.com/2023/10/29/news/cornell-on-alert-after-messages-threaten-campus-jewish-community/
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9o5JfIXQAApExS?format=jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9o5JfHX0AIT3D8?format=jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9p1PZPWMAAamcA?format=jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9o5JfIWMAAySqc?format=jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9pFazEWgAABpH1?format=jpg)
White House preps for broader war as concerns rise
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/29/white-house-biden-prepare-broader-war-israel-hamas
The Biden administration is preparing for the possibility the Israel-Hamas war will expand across the Middle East, and is focused on making sure U.S. forces in the region have adequate protection, U.S. and Israeli officials tell Axios.
Why it matters: The alarming prospect of regional escalation — fueled by a series of skirmishes beyond the fighting in Gaza — hangs over many of the internal and external conversations among top officials at the White House.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 29, 2023, 09:18:00 PM
Cornell has 22,000 students. 20% or 4,000 are Jewish.
Cornell's Kosher Dining Hall (104 West) is now on lockdown, and Jewish students are scared to leave their rooms.
The Cornell Police, State Police, and the FBI have all been alerted, and police are currently stationed at 104 West.
It will take more than strongly worded statements for the administration to alleviate the legitimate fears of 4,000 students.
They cannot come back tomorrow and Tuesday when nothing happens, no one is arrested, and announced "all clear."
----
https://nypost.com/2023/10/29/news/cornell-on-alert-after-messages-threaten-campus-jewish-community/
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9o5JfIXQAApExS?format=jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9o5JfHX0AIT3D8?format=jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9p1PZPWMAAamcA?format=jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9o5JfIWMAAySqc?format=jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9pFazEWgAABpH1?format=jpg)
This is repulsive if accurate.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 29, 2023, 09:46:30 PM
This is repulsive if accurate.
They are posted to Greekrank, a site used by college kids to determine which fraternities/sororities are best, that has no affiliation with the University.
It is disgusting, and needs to be fully vetted, but the choice of where it was posted suggests this might be a disgustingly crude ploy by an attention seeker. Or some crude dare/hazing event.
Putin meets with representatives from Hamas and Iran. Hundreds of Russians storm an airport where a plane is landing from Israel in what is being called an antisemitic mob. Surprising there were so many able bodied Russians left.
Purely coincidental, I am sure.
Quote from: tower912 on October 30, 2023, 07:07:56 AM
Putin meets with representatives from Hamas and Iran. Hundreds of Russians storm an airport where a plane is landing from Israel in what is being called an antisemitic mob. Surprising there were so many able bodied Russians left.
Purely coincidental, I am sure.
Huh.
Quote from: forgetful on October 29, 2023, 09:56:59 PM
They are posted to Greekrank, a site used by college kids to determine which fraternities/sororities are best, that has no affiliation with the University.
It is disgusting, and needs to be fully vetted, but the choice of where it was posted suggests this might be a disgustingly crude ploy by an attention seeker. Or some crude dare/hazing event.
True, but this is also the same University who has a professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas butchery on Oct. 7th. We have a severe problem. Not that I'm a huge fan of the guy but it's essentially what Bill Maher initially said a week or so ago about what they're actually teaching at his Alma Mater, the Ivies, and many, many, other Universities across the country. This oppresor/oppressed world view mentality (which seems to be taught extensively) is part of this whole thing.
Quote from: tower912 on October 30, 2023, 07:07:56 AM
Putin meets with representatives from Hamas and Iran. Hundreds of Russians storm an airport where a plane is landing from Israel in what is being called an antisemitic mob. Surprising there were so many able bodied Russians left.
Purely coincidental, I am sure.
Wait ... not the same Putin that far too many who claim to love Israel constantly defer to, defend and compliment, right?
Quote from: MU82 on October 30, 2023, 08:24:08 AM
Wait ... not the same Putin that far too many who claim to love Israel constantly defer to, defend and compliment, right?
It's weird. Russia is certainly supplying arms to the enemies of Israel, yet, we have a group of politicians in D.C. who don't want to help support Ukraine who is on the frontline against Putin and Russia.
We also have influence peddlers dealing in anti-Semitic tropes in their attacks against Zelensky in an attempt to sway public opinion here in America.
Yesterday, MTG, proud MAGA proponent announce she would not support aid to either Ukraine or Israel. Huh.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 30, 2023, 08:13:13 AM
True, but this is also the same University who has a professor who was "exhilarated" by the Hamas butchery on Oct. 7th. We have a severe problem. Not that I'm a huge fan of the guy but it's essentially what Bill Maher initially said a week or so ago about what they're actually teaching at his Alma Mater, the Ivies, and many, many, other Universities across the country. This oppresor/oppressed world view mentality (which seems to be taught extensively) is part of this whole thing.
Have you received an Ivy League education?
Because this isn't what is being extensively taught there, unless you mean that they teach students to critically evaluate all sides of any issue with trusted and reputable sources when making an argument.
Quote from: forgetful on October 30, 2023, 08:33:42 AM
Have you received an Ivy League education?
Because this isn't what is being extensively taught there, unless you mean that they teach students to critically evaluate all sides of any issue with trusted and reputable sources when making an argument.
That's what the 30 student Harvard groups were doing? When they blamed Israel 100% for what happened on Oct. 7? That's critical analysis? LOL.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 30, 2023, 08:37:00 AM
That's what the 30 student Harvard groups were doing? When they blamed Israel 100% for what happened on Oct. 7? That's critical analysis? LOL.
Says the guy who wants to blow up the mullahs and seize their oil fields.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 30, 2023, 08:37:51 AM
Says the guy who wants to blow up the mullahs and seize their oil fields.
It's not my fault people can't see the full picture and how it would benefit the entire world.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 30, 2023, 08:37:00 AM
That's what the 30 student Harvard groups were doing? When they blamed Israel 100% for what happened on Oct. 7? That's critical analysis? LOL.
No one said they learned the lesson of "critically evaluating all sides of an issue before making a well-worded response."
They also certainly weren't taught what they posted.
Learning is a process fraught with mistakes.
What's up with this nuke that's "24 times the strength" of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That's it? I thought by now we'd have something with a little more umph.
Quote from: forgetful on October 30, 2023, 08:45:00 AM
No one said they learned the lesson of "critically evaluating all sides of an issue before making a well-worded response."
They also certainly weren't taught what they posted.
Learning is a process fraught with mistakes.
They weren't taught? So this was just something genetically in their brain?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 30, 2023, 08:47:09 AM
What's up with this nuke that's "24 times the strength" of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That's it? I thought by now we'd have something with a little more umph.
Need to modify your 5 point plan because of this?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 30, 2023, 08:30:21 AM
It's weird. Russia is certainly supplying arms to the enemies of Israel, yet, we have a group of politicians in D.C. who don't want to help support Ukraine who is on the frontline against Putin and Russia.
We also have influence peddlers dealing in anti-Semitic tropes in their attacks against Zelensky in an attempt to sway public opinion here in America.
Yesterday, MTG, proud MAGA proponent announce she would not support aid to either Ukraine or Israel. Huh.
It's not only politicians. It's some Scoopers also not showing much concern for Ukrainian kids, let alone propping up Putin.
As for MQG ... not only hasn't Congressperson Jewish Space Laser ever been criticized for her anti-Semitism by the Criminal Defendant, he has praised her constantly, gladly accepted her undying support, and supposedly has her on his short list of running-mate candidates.
Quote from: lawdog77 on October 30, 2023, 08:48:41 AM
Need to modify your 5 point plan because of this?
I'm disappointed lawdog, but believe we have enough options to pull off certain subsets within my 5 point plan.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 30, 2023, 08:39:49 AM
It's not my fault people can't see the full picture and how it would benefit the entire world.
You realize this is the exact mentality of every overreaching dictator ever? That everyone else is wrong and it's their fault they all can't see what they personally see?
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 30, 2023, 08:51:22 AM
I'm disappointed lawdog, but believe we have enough options to pull off certain subsets within my 5 point plan.
Your 5-point plan reminds me of the "replace" part of "repeal and replace" the ACA.
Quote from: MU82 on October 30, 2023, 08:50:11 AM
It's not only politicians. It's some Scoopers also not showing much concern for Ukrainian kids, let alone propping up Putin.
As for MQG ... not only hasn't Congressperson Jewish Space Laser ever been criticized for her anti-Semitism by the Criminal Defendant, he has praised her constantly, gladly accepted her undying support, and supposedly has her on his short list of running-mate candidates.
All you can do is prey, I guess
Quote from: forgetful on October 30, 2023, 08:33:42 AM
Have you received an Ivy League education?
Because this isn't what is being extensively taught there, unless you mean that they teach students to critically evaluate all sides of any issue with trusted and reputable sources when making an argument.
I always laugh when people say universities are liberal brainwashing centers. I don't think there's a single university in the states where the faculty are more liberal than the student body. The younger generations are (and always have been) more socially liberal than the generations before them
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 30, 2023, 09:07:25 AM
I always laugh when people say universities are liberal brainwashing centers. I don't think there's a single university in the states where the faculty are more liberal than the student body. The younger generations are (and always have been) more socially liberal than the generations before them
Oh boy...I'm not sure about the bolded.
But regardless, I don't think it matters. Most professors just teach their subject matter regardless of their political beliefs either way.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 30, 2023, 09:18:44 AM
Oh boy...I'm not sure about the bolded.
But regardless, I don't think it matters. Most professors just teach their subject matter regardless of their political beliefs either way.
Right. And probably 80+ percent of the students are largely apolitical or pay attention, but generally are uninvolved.
People with little experience in higher education see these protests and believe it's a reflection of the university community as a whole, when in reality it's a small minority.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 30, 2023, 09:36:45 AM
Right. And probably 80+ percent of the students are largely apolitical or pay attention, but generally are uninvolved.
People with little experience in higher education see these protests and believe it's a reflection of the university community as a whole, when in reality it's a small minority.
We call those people baby boomers usually
Quote from: forgetful on October 29, 2023, 09:56:59 PM
They are posted to Greekrank, a site used by college kids to determine which fraternities/sororities are best, that has no affiliation with the University.
It is disgusting, and needs to be fully vetted, but the choice of where it was posted suggests this might be a disgustingly crude ploy by an attention seeker. Or some crude dare/hazing event.
So it's a bunch of stupid frat boys thinking they are being funny?
Are Jewish students wrong for thinking there is a group at Cornell that wants to commit violence against them?
(https://i0.wp.com/www.thecornellreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/IMG_3172-scaled.jpeg) (https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/10/F9TmbWXWsAAz6YO.jpg)
Anti-Israel graffiti stains Campus Road and Cornell
https://www.thecornellreview.org/cornell-anti-israel-graffiti-messages/
Spray paint on the main sidewalk of Campus Road, depicting messages such as "Zionism = Racism" and "Israel is Fascist" appeared on Wednesday morning.
Some time before 9:00 AM, the graffiti began on Campus Road sidewalks between Olin and Sage Halls on campus. As-yet unknown perpetrators painted messages in red and white spray paint and displayed the following messages along the primary thoroughfare: "Israel is Fascist," "Zionism = Racism," "Free Palestine," and "F*ck Israel."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/years-israeli-failures-hamas-led-115616625.html
Good look into the Israeli intelligence failure. Also a good look into the failure of the current leadership and Netanyahu weakening the military with his attempts to protect himself from prosecution. Very interesting
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 30, 2023, 02:52:32 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/years-israeli-failures-hamas-led-115616625.html
Good look into the Israeli intelligence failure. Also a good look into the failure of the current leadership and Netanyahu weakening the military with his attempts to protect himself from prosecution. Very interesting
That's how right wing governments/dictatorships operate. They need to disassemble the judicial and disable the military for fear that they'll be overthrown. Actively tearing down the functional systems around them is the modus operandi of potential future dictators. It is not guaranteed that Netanyahu agrees to a peaceful transfer of power this next cycle. It was pretty big news earlier this year.
Hopefully this war has made the Israelis less complacent with regards to Netanyahu.
:-[
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 30, 2023, 03:50:02 PM
That's how right wing governments/dictatorships operate. They need to disassemble the judicial and disable the military for fear that they'll be overthrown. Actively tearing down the functional systems around them is the modus operandi of potential future dictators. It is not guaranteed that Netanyahu agrees to a peaceful transfer of power this next cycle. It was pretty big news earlier this year.
Hopefully this war has made the Israelis less complacent with regards to Netanyahu.
Yup. Sounds pretty familiar
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 30, 2023, 03:50:02 PM
That's how right wing governments/dictatorships operate. They need to disassemble the judicial and disable the military for fear that they'll be overthrown. Actively tearing down the functional systems around them is the modus operandi of potential future dictators. It is not guaranteed that Netanyahu agrees to a peaceful transfer of power this next cycle. It was pretty big news earlier this year.
Hopefully this war has made the Israelis less complacent with regards to Netanyahu.
Project 2025
With a nearly 1,000-page "Project 2025" handbook and an "army" of Americans, the idea is to have the civic infrastructure in place on Day One to commandeer, reshape and do away with what Republicans deride as the "deep state" bureaucracy, in part by firing as many as 50,000 federal workers.
Instead, Trump-era conservatives want to gut the "administrative state" from within, by ousting federal employees they believe are standing in the way of the president's agenda and replacing them with like-minded officials more eager to fulfill a new executive's approach to governing.
There's a "top to bottom overhaul" of the Department of Justice, particularly curbing its independence and ending FBI efforts to combat the spread of misinformation. It calls for stepped-up prosecution of anyone providing or distributing abortion pills by mail.
To push past senators who try to block presidential Cabinet nominees, Project 2025 proposes installing top allies in acting administrative roles, as was done during the Trump administration to bypass the Senate confirmation process.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/conservatives-aim-to-restructure-u-s-government-and-replace-it-with-trumps-vision
It is an open call for authoritarian rule, and one side is perfectly fine with it.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 30, 2023, 03:50:02 PM
That's how right wing governments/dictatorships operate. They need to disassemble the judicial and disable the military for fear that they'll be overthrown. Actively tearing down the functional systems around them is the modus operandi of potential future dictators. It is not guaranteed that Netanyahu agrees to a peaceful transfer of power this next cycle. It was pretty big news earlier this year.
Hopefully this war has made the Israelis less complacent with regards to Netanyahu.
I am struggling to recall everyone blaming Roosevelt for the attack on Pearl Harbor. I seem to remember the blame on, you know, the people that attacked, the Japanese.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 04:35:52 PM
I am struggling to recall everyone blaming Roosevelt for the attack on Pearl Harbor. I seem to remember the blame on, you know, the people that attacked, the Japanese.
I didn't blame Netanyahu for the attacks by Hamas and their allies. I blame Netanyahu for weakening their military, which he did ahead of his attempt to seize control of the country. I don't think it's a controversial or argumentative point.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-brass-brief-knesset-on-military-readiness-amid-reservist-protests/
My point is that Israeli's "let" Netanyahu do this. Hopefully there's a silver lining to the Hamas terrorism that Israeli's wake up to Netanyahu's actions and how dangerous they are for the nation of Israel
A message, in English, to the Palestinians to move south after they turned off telecommunications?
How come no action in Qatar, where allegedly, Hamas leaders reside?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 04:35:52 PM
I am struggling to recall everyone blaming Roosevelt for the attack on Pearl Harbor. I seem to remember the blame on, you know, the people that attacked, the Japanese.
Lots of people blamed Roosevelt for Pearl Harbor. They still do.
There's plenty of evidence that he and his administration missed - or, for the conspiracy theorists, willfully ignored - signals of an imminent attack. And then there are those who believe Roosevelt goaded Japan into an attack to give the U.S. an entry into WWII.
I'm not saying they're right, but it would incorrect to say Roosevelt didn't get blame.
As for Netanyahu, I don't think anyone is saying he is responsible for the attack, but rather his administration missed warning sings and took its eyes off Hamas because it was instead laser-focused on consolidating power internally.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 04:35:52 PM
I am struggling to recall everyone blaming Roosevelt for the attack on Pearl Harbor. I seem to remember the blame on, you know, the people that attacked, the Japanese.
You need to read what Israeli Jews are saying in the Israeli press. They are not happy with Bibi. And yes, many blame him for their unpreparedness for the Hamas attack.
Then again, you are closer to the situation and have more at stake than actual Israeli Jews, so probably should just listen to you.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 30, 2023, 04:40:28 PM
A message, in English, to the Palestinians to move south after they turned off telecommunications?
How come no action in Qatar, where allegedly, Hamas leaders reside?
He did!
Hamas leader Isamil Haniyeh, who lives in Doha Qatar Four Season Hotel, appeared on the Lebanese Al-Mayadeen Network last Thursday(October 26)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmZ2kY0dOQo
Al-Mayadeen provided English subtitles of his Arabic appearance.
Starting at 1:40:
I have said this before, and I say is time and again: The blood of the women, children, and elderly.
I am not saying that this blood is calling for your (help). We are the ones who need the blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit, so it awakens our resolve. So it awakens with us the spirit of the challenge and (pushes us) to move forward.
----
Hamas, which is the government of Gaza, does not care about its citizens. It wants them to die (Marytr) at the hands of the Israelis by using them as human shields. It relies on the West to view their deaths in horror. They do not. This allows Hamas to get what they want.
----
I've argued that the conceit of Western progressives is they think everyone agrees with them. Everyone wants what they want.
But this is not how the world works. Some cultures and societies hold views that are incompatible with others. And the only way to rectify this is via conquest. Someone has to win and have their view prevail or the other. This is the story of human history, and it is what needs to happen in the Middle East.
The problem with Western progressives is when they encounter something that truly defies their worldview, "breaks their brain." To rationalize, they convince themselves it is taken out of context, needs to be understood with "nuisance," or dissembled.
This ongoing thread is nothing but Western Progressives unable to understand some people (Palasestians) think differently from them and want different things (like the death of all Jews) and are desperate to rationalize this inconsistency.Walter Russell Mead made this exact point in the Hidden Forces podcast today.
https://hiddenforces.io/
(from the transcript)
I do think that the American idea that what everybody really wants is prosperity and freedom, and that if you give people those things, you'll be fine. And ultimately everything will work out. That is so deeply ingrained in American culture that every now and then something will come along and shape that conviction. But like Sisyphus rolling the stone, it'll roll right back down to that original position. So, you think like 1913, everybody in America is basically thinking the era of wars is over. Norman Angell wrote this book The Great Illusion, that war was economically unprofitable, therefore no rational person would do it.
Therefore, we won't have many more, if any more great power wars, militaries are obsolete, sold really well until August 1914, but by 1919 we're already, "Okay, World War I, that was really terrible. But now we're going to make the League of Nations and we're really going to have prosperity and peace around the world." And then you get after World War II, "Oh, that was really terrible, but the United Nations and we're going to cooperate." The US actually demobilized 90% after 1945 before Stalin scared us enough to reinstitute the draft. And then at the end of the Cold War, as if none of these previous disillusionments had ever happened, we are right back in our happy place. So, I think we like to think of ourselves as fully rational actors who logically look at things from an independent perspective. But if we look at our history and the people who buy this are the intellectuals, the well-read, the well-educated. Ordinary people are probably a bit more skeptical of the whole thing all along. But it's the American intellectual is a happy clappy liberal at some very fundamental level.
Quote from: MU82 on October 30, 2023, 07:01:53 PM
You need to read what Israeli Jews are saying in the Israeli press. They are not happy with Bibi. And yes, many blame him for their unpreparedness for the Hamas attack.
Then again, you are closer to the situation and have more at stake than actual Israeli Jews, so probably should just listen to you.
I know Bibi made a big mistake, and he is probably done. But it does not matter.
The Israelis formed a unity government, and even if Benny Gantz is in charge tomorrow, nothing changes about the way they are going to prosecute this war.
They will get rid of Bibi when it is over. They do not want to show weakness.
Is the baby in the oven report true?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 07:08:24 PM
I know Bibi made a big mistake, and he is probably done. But it does not matter.
The Israelis formed a unity government, and even if Benny Gantz is in charge tomorrow, nothing changes about the way they are going to prosecute this war.
They will get rid of Bibi when it is over. They do not want to show weakness.
My post was in response to you suggesting that Bibi wouldn't or shouldn't be held responsible, at least in part, for Israel's unpreparedness. The fact is, plenty of Israelis are indeed holding him responsible.
The corrupt, extremist, narcissistic a-hole was too worried about trying to abuse power in an attempt to save his own skin. As someone else said, that sounds pretty familiar.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 07:05:09 PM
He did!
Hamas leader Isamil Haniyeh, who lives in Doha Qatar Four Season Hotel, appeared on the Lebanese Al-Mayadeen Network last Thursday(October 26)
Sorry. I meant why no military action against the Hamas leaders. Instead of indiscriminate bombing near/on top of innocent civilians
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 30, 2023, 07:55:20 PM
Sorry. I meant why no military action against the Hamas leaders. Instead of indiscriminate bombing near/on top of innocent civilians
What's your evidence they are indiscriminate bombing, as opposed to targeted bombing of military targets?
Who put the innocent civilians on those targets? See again what the leader of Hamas said.
Then look at the nearly 10,000 rockets Hamas and PIJ have fired since October 7? What is their target? Is it indiscriminate?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 30, 2023, 07:55:20 PM
Sorry. I meant why no military action against the Hamas leaders. Instead of indiscriminate bombing near/on top of innocent civilians
If you know where they are, I'd suggest letting the proper authorities know!
Quote from: MU82 on October 30, 2023, 07:35:52 PM
My post was in response to you suggesting that Bibi wouldn't or shouldn't be held responsible, at least in part, for Israel's unpreparedness. The fact is, plenty of Israelis are indeed holding him responsible.
The corrupt, extremist, narcissistic a-hole was too worried about trying to abuse power in an attempt to save his own skin. As someone else said, that sounds pretty familiar.
Bibi should be held responsible for the intelligence failure, not the attack.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 08:19:41 PM
What's your evidence they are indiscriminate bombing, as opposed to targeted bombing of military targets?
Who put the innocent civilians on those targets? See again what the leader of Hamas said.
Then look at the nearly 10,000 rockets Hamas and PIJ have fired since October 7? What is their target? Is it indiscriminate?
Israeli leaders today said they would target any vehicle in Gaza, because both civilians and Hamas can use cars (that is by definition indiscriminate). This while they dropped leaflets telling the people to leave, presumably in cars.
While they do prioritize military targets, they have made it abundantly clear in both language and actions that they view all Palestinians as complicit if they remain in Northern Gaza.
420 children are dying every day in bombings.
63 UN aid workers are dead. Including 10 in the past 72 hours due to the bombings.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 01:06:30 PM
So it's a bunch of stupid frat boys thinking they are being funny?
Are Jewish students wrong for thinking there is a group at Cornell that wants to commit violence against them?
(https://i0.wp.com/www.thecornellreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/IMG_3172-scaled.jpeg) (https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/10/F9TmbWXWsAAz6YO.jpg)
Anti-Israel graffiti stains Campus Road and Cornell
https://www.thecornellreview.org/cornell-anti-israel-graffiti-messages/
Spray paint on the main sidewalk of Campus Road, depicting messages such as "Zionism = Racism" and "Israel is Fascist" appeared on Wednesday morning.
Some time before 9:00 AM, the graffiti began on Campus Road sidewalks between Olin and Sage Halls on campus. As-yet unknown perpetrators painted messages in red and white spray paint and displayed the following messages along the primary thoroughfare: "Israel is Fascist," "Zionism = Racism," "Free Palestine," and "F*ck Israel."
No idea what the point of your post is, or what you are even asking. But of course there is cause for concern, which is why the entire Cornell community has been denouncing these statements. It is why they have police protecting all Jewish sites on campus, and why they have called in the FBI to get to the bottom of this.
It needs to be rooted out. It is clearly despicable.
A galaxy brain move for hamas would be to start attaching a baby to each rocket they fire into Israel. The focus would instantly shift to how many babies the iron dome is killing every day.
Quote from: forgetful on October 30, 2023, 08:33:59 PM
Israeli leaders today said they would target any vehicle in Gaza, because both civilians and Hamas can use cars (that is by definition indiscriminate). This while they dropped leaflets telling the people to leave, presumably in cars.
While they do prioritize military targets, they have made it abundantly clear in both language and actions that they view all Palestinians as complicit if they remain in Northern Gaza.
420 children are dying every day in bombings.
63 UN aid workers are dead. Including 10 in the past 72 hours due to the bombings.
Same thing the US did in Fallujah, except the US gave the Iraquis like 2 days to evacuate. We flattened that place.
Such is warfare against terrorists.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 30, 2023, 04:51:30 PM
Lots of people blamed Roosevelt for Pearl Harbor. They still do.
There's plenty of evidence that he and his administration missed - or, for the conspiracy theorists, willfully ignored - signals of an imminent attack. And then there are those who believe Roosevelt goaded Japan into an attack to give the U.S. an entry into WWII.
I'm not saying they're right, but it would incorrect to say Roosevelt didn't get blame.
This is 100% correct. Whether A, B, or C is the real story we'll never know for certain.
Quote from: forgetful on October 30, 2023, 08:33:59 PM
Israeli leaders today said they would target any vehicle in Gaza, because both civilians and Hamas can use cars (that is by definition indiscriminate). This while they dropped leaflets telling the people to leave, presumably in cars.
While they do prioritize military targets, they have made it abundantly clear in both language and actions that they view all Palestinians as complicit if they remain in Northern Gaza.
420 children are dying every day in bombings.
63 UN aid workers are dead. Including 10 in the past 72 hours due to the bombings.
Highlighted part above ... yes, they gave them 20 days to get out of harm's way. How much warning did Hamas give the Israeli population on or before October 7?
The civilian population of Gaza is bearing the brunt of having a terrorist organization as their government.
What changed after October 7 is now that the Israelis gave ample warning, they are not going to let human shields stop them. Nor should they.
Nothing is stopping the Gazan population from rising up against Hamas. They can kill them, return the hostages, and apologize. And, I'm sorry, if they do not want to (or can), Gaza City should brush up on the history of Dresden.
Quote from: forgetful on October 30, 2023, 08:53:47 PM
No idea what the point of your post is, or what you are even asking. But of course there is cause for concern, which is why the entire Cornell community has been denouncing these statements. It is why they have police protecting all Jewish sites on campus, and why they have called in the FBI to get to the bottom of this.
It needs to be rooted out. It is clearly despicable.
OK, good ... I interpreted your original response as dismissive.
Hamas gives Russia Today a tour of their tunnel system.
https://x.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/1719307233014485239?s=20
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 30, 2023, 08:19:41 PM
What's your evidence they are indiscriminate bombing, as opposed to targeted bombing of military targets?
Who put the innocent civilians on those targets? See again what the leader of Hamas said.
Then look at the nearly 10,000 rockets Hamas and PIJ have fired since October 7? What is their target? Is it indiscriminate?
What's the evidence for them being military targets? Schools, religious centers, medical facilities, residential buildings
Hamas is a terrorist organization. I wouldn't expect them to respect anything - including civilian life. Since you want to compare Hamas to the Israel government, is it your position that the Israel government operates like a terrorist organization?
If a gunman holds a school, with kids inside, hostage/at gunpoint, is it a good plan to bomb the school to kill the gunman?
If Hamas is the target, go after the leaders, especially if outside of Gaza
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 31, 2023, 10:16:46 AM
If Hamas is the target, go after the leaders, especially if outside of Gaza
So attack another sovereign nation (Qatar) that isn't technically involved in the war right now? That would heavily escalate things in the region even more so.
Unless you're proposing special forces infiltrate Qatar and introduce them to darkness
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Unless you're proposing special forces infiltrate Qatar and introduce them to darkness
My guess is that this is already being discussed.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 31, 2023, 10:16:46 AM
If Hamas is the target, go after the leaders, especially if outside of Gaza
I suspect the U.S. would be very much opposed by any Israeli military incursion into one of its Middle Eastern allies.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 11:10:25 AM
I suspect the U.S. would be very much opposed by any Israeli military incursion into one of its Middle Eastern allies.
Yeah, but that's different from Mossad taking action.
You have to kill terrorist leaders wherever they are. Even if they're being harbored by a "friendly" country.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 11:43:52 AM
Yeah, but that's different from Mossad taking action.
You have to kill terrorist leaders wherever they are. Even if they're being harbored by a "friendly" country.
And give the US plausible deniability.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 31, 2023, 09:50:17 AM
Hamas gives Russia Today a tour of their tunnel system.
https://x.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/1719307233014485239?s=20
No doubt built with a portion of the funds sent for humanitarian aid to Gaza, how delightful.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
So attack another sovereign nation (Qatar) that isn't technically involved in the war right now? That would heavily escalate things in the region even more so.
Unless you're proposing special forces infiltrate Qatar and introduce them to darkness
You've never seen jack Ryan?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 31, 2023, 12:15:24 PM
And give the US plausible deniability.
I watched NCIS. I'm not sure even Israel knows what Mossad is up to.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 31, 2023, 10:16:46 AM
What's the evidence for them being military targets? Schools, religious centers, medical facilities, residential buildings
Hamas is a terrorist organization. I wouldn't expect them to respect anything - including civilian life. Since you want to compare Hamas to the Israel government, is it your position that the Israel government operates like a terrorist organization?
If a gunman holds a school, with kids inside, hostage/at gunpoint, is it a good plan to bomb the school to kill the gunman?
If Hamas is the target, go after the leaders, especially if outside of Gaza
Your analogy is incorrect.
If a German soldier fires on Allied troops from a classroom full of children, do you target that threat? ANwer, yes.
Allied bombing killed 2 million civilians in WW2. Those were justified.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 01:21:44 PM
I watched NCIS. I'm not sure even Israel knows what Mossad is up to.
The Mossad clearly doesn't know what Hamas is up to.
I know the Mossad had got a reputation and all, but if infiltrating Qatar and assassinating Hamas' leadership without setting off an international incident was highly practicable, it likely would have happened by now. Good luck to them if they try, but if they get caught or have to shoot their way out of the country, Israel might have bigger problems than Gaza.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 02:13:07 PM
The Mossad clearly doesn't know what Hamas is up to.
I know the Mossad had got a reputation and all, but if infiltrating Qatar and assassinating Hamas' leadership without setting off an international incident was highly practicable, it likely would have happened by now. Good luck to them if they try, but if they get caught or have to shoot their way out of the country, Israel might have bigger problems than Gaza.
Russia had Zelimkhan Yandarbiev assassinated in Qatar a few years back and it was no big deal.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 02:18:32 PM
Russia had Zelimkhan Yandarbiev assassinated in Qatar a few years back and it was no big deal.
2004 ... a few years back?
And it was actually a really big deal.
And Israel isn't Russia.
Does bombing a refugee camp count as indiscriminate? Or still not yet
Hamas Official Mousa Abu Marzouk, in an interview on Friday:
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-protect-fighters-%20not-civilians
Mousa Abu Marzouk, a member of the Hamas Political Bureau said in an October 27, 2023 interview that aired on Russia Today TV that
the tunnels in Gaza were built to protect Hams fighters from airstrikes, not civilians. He added that Hamas fights Israel from within the tunnels. Abu Marzouq added that since 75% of the residents in the Gaza Strip are refugees, it is the responsibility of the United Nations to protect them.
He added that according to the Geneva Conventions, it is the responsibility of the "occupation" to provide civilians in Gaza "will all the services," as long as they are under occupation.
---
Hamas is the government of Gaza. It is their job to protect their citizens. They just told you they protect terrorists, not civilians. And when Israel kills (martyrs) a human shield, probably held against their will, it is a violation of the Geneva Convention.
That is rich because Hamas violates Articles 28 and 290 of the Geneva Convention.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-29
----
Many times, I posted about the conceit of Western progressives, that when faced with something outside their worldview, because their worldview is the only one that is right/correct, it "breaks their brain." Would you like an example from a few hours ago?
A poster incapable of accepting reality because it violates his worldview.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 31, 2023, 10:16:46 AM
What's the evidence for them being military targets? Schools, religious centers, medical facilities, residential buildings
It is not about proof. It is not about not being able to accept a reality that differs from your worldview. No amount of proof will satisfy this poster because he cannot accept his worldview is wrong.
----
Want more proof of the conceit of Western Progressives that "everyone thinks like me." He cannot accept a different worldview, so it must be wrong, and everyone thinks and will react like him ... if only given a chance.
This is the most naive thing I read about this conflict ... and it is from the senior NY Times foreign correspondent!
THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
The Israeli Officials I Speak With Tell Me They Know Two Things for SureOct. 29, 2023
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/29/opinion/israel-hamas-ceasefire.html
A pause could also allow the people of Gaza to take stock of what Hamas's attack on Israel — and Israel's totally predictable response — has done to their lives, families, homes and businesses. What exactly did Hamas think it would accomplish with this war for the people of Gaza, thousands of whom were traveling to work in Israel every day or exporting agricultural products and other goods across the Gaza-Israel border just a few weeks ago? Hamas has gotten way too much understanding and not enough hard questions.
I want to see Hamas's leaders come out from their tunnels under hospitals and look their people, and the world's media, in the eye and tell everyone why they thought it was such a great idea to mutilate and kidnap Israeli children and grandmothers and trigger this terrible blowback on the children and grandmothers of their Gaza neighbors — not to mention their own.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
2004 ... a few years back?
And it was actually a really big deal.
And Israel isn't Russia.
Eh, 2001 was the beginning of the era of fighting terrorism so it's all within the same round of wars against Al Quaeda & the Islamic State. Russia had a terrorist killed in Qatar. A couple of Russians were put on trial, sentenced to life, and then extradited to Russia where they were immediately freed. Not the biggest deal since there were zero repercussions. Probably a much bigger deal because it was done with a car bomb instead of something they could easily cover up. Splashy so to speak.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 02:28:44 PM
Does bombing a refugee camp count as indiscriminate? Or still not yet
Did you learn nothing from the hospital bombing? Israel has not commented. The US has not commented.
I did not trust nor believe anything from the Gaza Health Ministry. It would be best if you did the same.
I'm waiting for collaboration from a credible source. And yes, the IDF is more credible than the Gaza health ministry. The IDF got the hospital bombing correct.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 02:37:47 PM
A poster incapable of accepting reality because it violates his worldview.
I've stopped reading your stuff the last couple of days because it is really long and continues to say the same thing.
But you claiming that others are "incapable of accepting reality" has got to be one of the most ironic statements typed on Scoop.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 02:44:43 PM
Eh, 2001 was the beginning of the era of fighting terrorism so it's all within the same round of wars against Al Quaeda & the Islamic State. Russia had a terrorist killed in Qatar. A couple of Russians were put on trial, sentenced to life, and then extradited to Russia where they were immediately freed. Not the biggest deal since there were zero repercussions. Probably a much bigger deal because it was done with a car bomb instead of something they could easily cover up. Splashy so to speak.
Again, Israel isn't Russia. Because:
- Qatar almost certainly would view an Israeli incursion into their country as far more offensive
- Qatar doesn't view Hamas as it does a Chechen separatist group
- Let's face it, Qatar wasn't ever going to round up its allies and join a fight with Russia. With Israel ... maybe not, but certainly not as unthinkable. And it certainly would kill any immediate hopes of expanding Israel's diplomatic ties with the Arab world.
And no, 2004 was not a few years ago. Quality spin, though.
The point is, Israel attempting to assassinate Hamas leaders in Qatar is fraught with peril. You're free to disagree.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 02:59:35 PM
Again, Israel isn't Russia. Because:
- Qatar almost certainly would view an Israeli incursion into their country as far more offensive
- Qatar doesn't view Hamas as it does a Chechen separatist group
- Let's face it, Qatar wasn't ever going to round up its allies and join a fight with Russia. With Israel ... maybe not, but certainly not as unthinkable. And it certainly would kill any immediate hopes of expanding Israel's diplomatic ties with the Arab world.
And no, 2004 was not a few years ago. Quality spin, though.
The point is, Israel attempting to assassinate Hamas leaders in Qatar is fraught with peril. You're free to disagree.
Agree. there's a reason these leaders are "hiding" in Qatar. It's almost as if they are thumbing their nose at Israel.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 02:59:35 PM
Again, Israel isn't Russia. Because:
- Qatar almost certainly would view an Israeli incursion into their country as far more offensive
- Qatar doesn't view Hamas as it does a Chechen separatist group
- Let's face it, Qatar wasn't ever going to round up its allies and join a fight with Russia. With Israel ... maybe not, but certainly not as unthinkable. And it certainly would kill any immediate hopes of expanding Israel's diplomatic ties with the Arab world.
And no, 2004 was not a few years ago. Quality spin, though.
The point is, Israel attempting to assassinate Hamas leaders in Qatar is fraught with peril. You're free to disagree.
There's no spin, I'm just giving you an example based on history. BTW, that "Chechen separatist group leader" was a member of Al Qaeda, and based on history Qatar has regularly joined NATO to fight terrorists and are actively engaged as a part of a coalition in a war against Islamists in Syria. Qatar is no Switzerland, they take sides with their military.
Qatar isn't a normal Arab nation, they act more like Singapore in that they're capitalists first and religious second. They want clout and they want to be viewed as peacemakers (and dealmakers) in the region. They won't bite the hand that feeds them (US and NATO allies). Like I mentioned earlier, Qatar is already fighting in Syria against Islamists, the allies of Hamas.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 02:47:22 PM
Did you learn nothing from the hospital bombing? Israel has not commented. The US has not commented.
I did not trust nor believe anything from the Gaza Health Ministry. It would be best if you did the same.
I'm waiting for collaboration from a credible source. And yes, the IDF is more credible than the Gaza health ministry. The IDF got the hospital bombing correct.
You clearly put in absolutely zero effort into those claims of no comment. Literally googling "IDF" shows a large spectrum of articles reporting that they confirmed the strike on the refugee camp. But here's some help since you seem to need it for anything not narrowly in the crosshairs of confirming your delusions.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-egypt-russia-airport/?id=104468652
You really are not a serious person
Hey I finally figured out the ignore function at least!
May it bring you serenity.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 03:16:12 PM
Like I mentioned earlier, Qatar is already fighting in Syria against Islamists, the allies of Hamas.
I believe you're mistaken on two fronts here.
I don't think Qatar's military is not fighting in the Syrian Civil War (correct me if I'm mistaken). They are giving tons of support and funding to moderate rebel forces, but they are not a direct participant.
Second, they're not fighting Islamists, they're fighting the Assad regime.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 03:52:30 PM
I believe you're mistaken on two fronts here.
I don't think Qatar's military is not fighting in the Syrian Civil War (correct me if I'm mistaken). They are giving tons of support and funding to moderate rebel forces, but they are not a direct participant.
Second, they're not fighting Islamists, they're fighting the Assad regime.
All I know is from Wikipedia, honestly. Qatar had (has) direct military involvement against ISIL in Syria for a conflict that's not over, but also is largely undefined - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State
> Starting on 22 September 2014, the U.S., Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates began numerous large-scale airstrikes against ISIL targets in Syria[175] with fighters, bombers, and sea-based Tomahawk cruise missiles.[176] The strikes were the largest aerial bombing operations launched against IS targets since US launched its military campaign against IS in August 2014
As far as I know, the bombings have continued and Qatari aircraft have been involved (with the big Qatar air base coordinating stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Udeid_Air_Base)
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 03:27:47 PM
You clearly put in absolutely zero effort into those claims of no comment. Literally googling "IDF" shows a large spectrum of articles reporting that they confirmed the strike on the refugee camp. But here's some help since you seem to need it for anything not narrowly in the crosshairs of confirming your delusions.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-egypt-russia-airport/?id=104468652
You really are not a serious person
CNN's Wolf Blitzer: You knew that there were innocent civilians in that refugee camp, right?
IDF spox: This is the tragedy of war. We told them to move south.
Blitzer: So you decided to drop the bomb anyway.
IDF spox: We're doing everything we can to minimize civilian deaths.
----
They bombed the camp as a Hamas commander was hiding among the refugees. That is a war crime by Hamas, a violation of Article 29 of the Geneva Convention.
Isreal have been very clear about this, and I have said for many weeks this was coming.
Israel views this as a war for their survival.
Israel gave a warning. No one moved, so they died. Israel is no longer f**king around. Hamas has 30,000 to 40,000 fighters, so Isreal has the goal of killing 30,000 to 40,000 Hamas fighters, and everyone else better get out of the way.
Where are they going to go? That is Hamas's problem; Hamas started this, and as the Government of Gaza, it is their job to protect their citizens. Israel's job is to kill Hamas and keep civilian casualties to a minimum, but, again, the presence of civilians is no longer stopping Israel from its mission. Warning: if you do not move, you die.
The Allies firebombed Dresden.
A tragedy and within the rules of war. And unfortunately, this will happen again until Hamas is destroyed.
The is why war is ugly, and Hamas should have thought about this before they provoked this response.
International Red Cross Rules of war
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ihl-rules-of-war-faq-geneva-conventions
The laws of war prohibit direct attacks on civilian objects, like schools. They also prohibit direct attacks against hospitals and medical staff, which are specially protected under IHL. That said, a hospital or school may become a legitimate military target if it contributes to specific military operations of the enemy and if its destruction offers a definite military advantage for the attacking side.
Hamas was hiding commanders and weapons in the Jabalya refugee camp. Per the rules of war, that made it a legitimate target and a war crime by Hamas.
Israel was not required to give a warning to the civilians in the camp. They did. The civilians did not move. They are dead. It is terrible, but war is terrible.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 04:04:46 PM
All I know is from Wikipedia, honestly. Qatar had (has) direct military involvement against ISIL in Syria for a conflict that's not over, but also is largely undefined - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State
> Starting on 22 September 2014, the U.S., Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates began numerous large-scale airstrikes against ISIL targets in Syria[175] with fighters, bombers, and sea-based Tomahawk cruise missiles.[176] The strikes were the largest aerial bombing operations launched against IS targets since US launched its military campaign against IS in August 2014
As far as I know, the bombings have continued and Qatari aircraft have been involved (with the big Qatar air base coordinating stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Udeid_Air_Base)
OK, I think we're talking about separate but related things.
When you said the Qataris are fighting in Syria, I took it to mean they're presently fighting in the current iteration of the Syrian Civil War. I've found no evidence of that, just that they're supplying weapons and money to the anti-Assad rebels.
You're talking about past military action against ISIS, which largely has been out of the picture for 5+ years now.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 04:44:55 PM
International Red Cross Rules of war
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ihl-rules-of-war-faq-geneva-conventions
The laws of war prohibit direct attacks on civilian objects, like schools. They also prohibit direct attacks against hospitals and medical staff, which are specially protected under IHL. That said, a hospital or school may become a legitimate military target if it contributes to specific military operations of the enemy and if its destruction offers a definite military advantage for the attacking side.
Hamas was hiding commanders and weapons in the Jabalya refugee camp. Per the rules of war, that made it a legitimate target and a war crime by Hamas.
Israel was not required to give a warning to the civilians in the camp. They did. The civilians did not move. They are dead. It is terrible, but war is terrible.
I think your bolded part makes it very clear why this is a legitimate and complicated discussion. Lots of subjective words that lead to a subjective bombing.
That being said, I do understand that war is brutal, deadly, unwavering, and unapologetic. That's why I prefer not to go to war and pacifism. Not ignoring or dealing with threats, just minimal violence. After listening to a Sam Harris podcast yesterday, I can understand your feelings. He was very clear of radical Islam's threat to the world and that radical Islam thinks and believes differently than the rest of the world. This sort of harkens back to your point of western progressive arrogance.
That also being said, you say Hamas is responsible for the protection of the Gazans as they are in power. We both know they have no desire to protect the populace, so where does the responsibility then lie? Do the Israelis have any responsibility to open its borders, bomb the hell out of Gaza, then move them back? Or, does that fall under Israeli "occupation" or control? I'm not sure.
That's why I think the response is tricky. We know Hamas will not protect the innocent Gazans. We know Israel needs to respond with force. Why don't we do everything we can to keep innocent civilians alive?
It's "western progressive conceit" to not want civilians to be murdered during war?
I don't know, and neither does anyone else, whether Israel is intentionally targeting innocent civilians.
But it's not ridiculous to ask if they are and then condemn they if they do.
As above, there's apparent evidence that there were Hamas among the refugees camp. That's evidence of military and somewhat supports bombing there.
Asking for evidence of all the other seemingly innocent sites isn't an absurd notion
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 04:58:17 PM
OK, I think we're talking about separate but related things.
When you said the Qataris are fighting in Syria, I took it to mean they're presently fighting in the current iteration of the Syrian Civil War. I've found no evidence of that, just that they're supplying weapons and money to the anti-Assad rebels.
You're talking about past military action against ISIS, which largely has been out of the picture for 5+ years now.
Got it, understood.
Point still stands that Qatar has joind coalitions against Islamic terror groups with our NATO allies and likely will again. NATO has taken sides in the conflict, and so I think we know which side Qatar will fall to when pushed.
On the other hand, I'm surprised more people aren't assassinated. Maybe the documentary NCIS lied to me about the frequency of unsanctioned actions on foreign soil.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on October 31, 2023, 05:09:58 PM
I think your bolded part makes it very clear why this is a legitimate and complicated discussion. Lots of subjective words that lead to a subjective bombing.
That being said, I do understand that war is brutal, deadly, unwavering, and unapologetic. That's why I prefer not to go to war and pacifism. Not ignoring or dealing with threats, just minimal violence. After listening to a Sam Harris podcast yesterday, I can understand your feelings. He was very clear of radical Islam's threat to the world and that radical Islam thinks and believes differently than the rest of the world. This sort of harkens back to your point of western progressive arrogance.
That also being said, you say Hamas is responsible for the protection of the Gazans as they are in power. We both know they have no desire to protect the populace, so where does the responsibility then lie? Do the Israelis have any responsibility to open its borders, bomb the hell out of Gaza, then move them back? Or, does that fall under Israeli "occupation" or control? I'm not sure.
That's why I think the response is tricky. We know Hamas will not protect the innocent Gazans. We know Israel needs to respond with force. Why don't we do everything we can to keep innocent civilians alive?
Good post, and you're right. Sam Harris indeed had an excellent essay on the sin of Moral Equivalence.
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/338-the-sin-of-moral-equivalence
He drives home the point that incompatible worldviews will never be compatible. And the worst thing we can do is make a moral equivalence of the two.
---
My add
And these views will be in perpetual conflict, constantly killing each other until the end of time, until one side prevails over the other.
And since these two sides cannot co-exist, I've asked which side you are on. You have to pick one. There is no middle ground, or the middle ground is constant war and death, and that is untenable.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 05:43:31 PM
Good post, and you're right. Sam Harris indeed had an excellent essay on the sin of Moral Equivalence.
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/338-the-sin-of-moral-equivalence
He drives home the point that incompatible worldviews will never be compatible. And the worst thing we can do is make a moral equivalence of the two.
---
My add
And these views will be in perpetual conflict, constantly killing each other until the end of time, until one side prevails over the other.
And since these two sides cannot co-exist, I've asked which side you are on. You have to pick one. There is no middle ground, or the middle ground is constant war and death, and that is untenable.
Sam Harris preaching about sin? Did. Not. Expect.
Anyhow, you're offering a false choice here. Logically and literally.
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3b11306f6017a1ebe10a5a3d4c2ced4f)
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 31, 2023, 05:16:18 PM
It's "western progressive conceit" to not want civilians to be murdered during war?
I don't know, and neither does anyone else, whether Israel is intentionally targeting innocent civilians.
But it's not ridiculous to ask if they are and then condemn they if they do.
As above, there's apparent evidence that there were Hamas among the refugees camp. That's evidence of military and somewhat supports bombing there.
Asking for evidence of all the other seemingly innocent sites isn't an absurd notion
I just don't think you can convince me that evidence of an adversarial presence in a refugee camp is justification for vaporizing the entirety of it, civilians and all. But as you might have seen by earlier posts, I tend to be on the side of no collective punishment is acceptable in current modern warfare.
But we can agree to disagree there.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 04:17:36 PM
CNN's Wolf Blitzer: You knew that there were innocent civilians in that refugee camp, right?
IDF spox: This is the tragedy of war. We told them to move south.
Blitzer: So you decided to drop the bomb anyway.
IDF spox: We're doing everything we can to minimize civilian deaths.
It is called a war crime.
And saying they told them to move south. Forced mass relocation of people, is also a war crime.
And they are bombing the south too. They also have blocked the only road south, and have fired on any vehicles going down the road.
So how do they leave? And where to?
Regarding Hamas leaders being in the refugee camp. Israel has bombed leaders in their homes, despite them being in civilian centers. It is not a violation of the Geneva Convention for people to be in their own homes.
How considerate of Yale to censor a pro Israel editorial in their student newspaper.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 06:50:52 PM
I just don't think you can convince me that evidence of an adversarial presence in a refugee camp is justification for vaporizing the entirety of it, civilians and all. But as you might have seen by earlier posts, I tend to be on the side of no collective punishment is acceptable in current modern warfare.
But we can agree to disagree there.
According to Reuters Israel killed 50 Palestinians and a Hamas commander at Jabalia Camp, Palestine said another 150 wounded.
Israel did not vaporize the entirety of a refugee camp. Jabalia Camp houses over 116,000.
Bombing a target and hitting civilians isn't collective punishment. That's just war.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 07:26:48 PM
According to Reuters Israel killed 50 Palestinians and a Hamas commander at Jabalia Camp, Palestine said another 150 wounded.
Israel did not vaporize the entirety of a refugee camp. Jabalia Camp houses over 116,000.
Bombing a target and hitting civilians isn't collective punishment. That's just war.
Killing 50 civilians to get one Hamas leader seems to fit the definition.
1 Collective punishment is a form of sanction imposed on persons or a group of persons in response to a crime committed by one of them or a member of the grouphttps://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e269#law-9780199231690-e269-div1-1
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 07:26:48 PM
According to Reuters Israel killed 50 Palestinians and a Hamas commander at Jabalia Camp, Palestine said another 150 wounded.
Israel did not vaporize the entirety of a refugee camp. Jabalia Camp houses over 116,000.
Bombing a target and hitting civilians isn't collective punishment. That's just war.
"They didn't kill everyone, just dozens. Ends justify the means". Still a war crime brotha
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 07:38:39 PM
Killing 50 civilians to get one Hamas leader seems to fit the definition.
1 Collective punishment is a form of sanction imposed on persons or a group of persons in response to a crime committed by one of them or a member of the group
https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e269#law-9780199231690-e269-div1-1
I mean in their defense we used "that's just war" for similar body to combatant counts in Afghanistan/Iraq.
Quote from: forgetful on October 31, 2023, 06:59:43 PM
It is called a war crime.
And saying they told them to move south. Forced mass relocation of people, is also a war crime.
And they are bombing the south too. They also have blocked the only road south, and have fired on any vehicles going down the road.
So how do they leave? And where to?
Regarding Hamas leaders being in the refugee camp. Israel has bombed leaders in their homes, despite them being in civilian centers. It is not a violation of the Geneva Convention for people to be in their own homes.
Do you believe Hamas uses human shields?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 07:38:39 PM
Killing 50 civilians to get one Hamas leader seems to fit the definition.
1 Collective punishment is a form of sanction imposed on persons or a group of persons in response to a crime committed by one of them or a member of the group
https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e269#law-9780199231690-e269-div1-1
To be fair da IDF failed to ax, "captain may I." More mushy, stinky, brown matta between da ears of those who don't understand its fookin' war. Its not a video game, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 07:38:39 PM
Killing 50 civilians to get one Hamas leader seems to fit the definition.
1 Collective punishment is a form of sanction imposed on persons or a group of persons in response to a crime committed by one of them or a member of the group
https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e269#law-9780199231690-e269-div1-1
It doesn't fit the definition (I am not a lawyer)
https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/collective-punishments
> The term refers not only to criminal punishment, but also to other types of sanctions, harassment or administrative action taken against a group in retaliation for an act committed by an individual/s who are considered to form part of the group.
It's not referring to bombing during a war. Bombing is not a judicial or administrative action. Civilians are just collateral damage, always have been.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 07:40:50 PM
"They didn't kill everyone, just dozens. Ends justify the means". Still a war crime brotha
Plaque Lives Matter (you) mentioned they vaporized the camp. I was pointing out that it's hyperbole for the casual war fan
> I just don't think you can convince me that evidence of an adversarial presence in a refugee camp is justification for
vaporizing the entirety of itMake better points I guess
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 31, 2023, 07:48:34 PM
To be fair da IDF failed to ax, "captain may I." More mushy, stinky, brown matta between da ears of those who don't understand its fookin' war. Its not a video game, hey?
Same rationalization as the perpetrators of Oct. 7.
Mediocre minds think alike, aina?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 07:58:26 PM
It doesn't fit the definition (I am not a lawyer)
https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/collective-punishments
> The term refers not only to criminal punishment, but also to other types of sanctions, harassment or administrative action taken against a group in retaliation for an act committed by an individual/s who are considered to form part of the group.
It's not referring to bombing during a war. Bombing is not a judicial or administrative action. Civilians are just collateral damage, always have been.
Killing isn't a form of sanction?
Seriously? Any actual support for this belief?
Quote
Pakuni mentioned they vaporized the camp. I was pointing out that it's hyperbole for the casual war fan
I said nothing of the sort.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 08:04:22 PM
Killing isn't a form of sanction?
Seriously? Any actual support for this belief?
Bombing in a war has never been prosecuted as collective punishment.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 08:04:22 PM
I said nothing of the sort.
Plaque lives matter said it, I'll edit above. That's pretty funny that they're arguing around their own point, made me think someone else must have said it.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 07:42:47 PM
Do you believe Hamas uses human shields?
Define human shields.
I think this article does a good job of capturing the story/situation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/human-shield-israel-claim-hamas-command-centre-under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/human-shield-israel-claim-hamas-command-centre-under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city)
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 08:07:41 PM
Bombing in a war has never been prosecuted as collective punishment.
Plaque lives matter said it, I'll edit above. That's pretty funny that they're arguing around their own point, made me think someone else must have said it.
Vaporized it was hyperbole, yeah. My bad. I am upset a refugee camp was airstruck.
But you're the one pushing semantics of war crime definitions for determining acceptable levels of civilian mortality.
So if that makes you want to claim internet points? Go for it. I'll maintain we can agree to disagree still.
I've maintained a consistent stance on collateral damage that killing civilians is bad no matter who pulls the trigger. So not sure what you're on about me arguing around.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 08:20:33 PM
Vaporized it was hyperbole, yeah. My bad.
But you're the one pushing semantics of war crime definitions for determining acceptable levels of civilian mortality.
So if that makes you want to claim internet points? Go for it. I'll maintain we can agree to disagree still.
I've maintained a consistent stance on collateral damage that killing civilians is bad no matter who pulls the trigger. So not sure what you're on about me arguing around.
I'm not on you I don't think. I agree that civilian deaths should be avoided if possible. Dropping like 8 bombs to kill one dude in a refugee camp is bad.
But collective punishment has a specific definition that doesn't have to do with bombing during a war. And the whole camp wasn't vaporized. That's it. Everything else I typed was trying to support my statements. I think being specific and accurate helps talk about these things that are so emotionally charged for folks.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 08:07:41 PM
Bombing in a war has never been prosecuted as collective punishment.
Bombing of civilian targets has been prosecuted as a war crime.
But at this point, you're just arguing semantics.
.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 07:38:39 PM
Killing 50 civilians to get one Hamas leader seems to fit the definition.
1 Collective punishment is a form of sanction imposed on persons or a group of persons in response to a crime committed by one of them or a member of the group
https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e269#law-9780199231690-e269-div1-1
Gaza Health Ministry says 52 were killed in a camp of 116,000. Assume it is less (remember, the Gaza Health Ministry initially said 500 were killed in a hospital attack, which is now understood to be 10 to 50 in a parking lot next to the hospital via a failed rocket.)
Israel is claiming they killed a Hamas Commander and several Hamas fighters when they sent a bomb (via a fighter) into a Hamas tunnel under the camp. It set off "secondary explosions" (meaning weapons in the tunnel), causing the ground above the tunnel to collapse. Israel believes this was the primary catalyst for the civilian casualties. Israel said collapsing ground when blowing up tunnels and causing collateral damage above it is well understood to be a consequence of attacking a tunnel.
To be clear, Israel is saying they had to launch more than one bomb to blow up the tunnel. They are saying they cannot separate civilian casualties from their bombs directly and the collapse of the tunnel.
Hamas was using the camp to hide personnel, command and control, and weapons. Israel said they dropped flyers two weeks ago and have given repeated warnings for civilians to leave the area.
And Israel re-iterated that their rules of engagement have changed. After the warnings, they are going to act, and while they will attempt to minimize civilian casualties, they will no longer let the prospects of civilian casualties stop them.
----
Who committed the war crime?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 08:38:17 PM
Gaza Health Ministry says 52 were killed in a camp of 116,000. Assume it is less (remember, the Gaza Health Ministry initially said 500 were killed in a hospital attack, which is now understood to be 10 to 50 in a parking lot next to the hospital via a failed rocket.)
Israel is claiming they killed a Hamas Commander and several Hamas fighters when they sent a bomb (via a fighter) into a Hamas tunnel under the camp. It set off "secondary explosions" (meaning weapons in the tunnel), causing the ground above the tunnel to collapse. Israel believes this was the primary catalyst for the civilian casualties. Israel said collapsing ground when blowing up tunnels and causing collateral damage above it is well understood to be a consequence of attacking a tunnel.
To be clear, Israel is saying they had to launch more than one bomb to blow up the tunnel. They are saying they cannot separate civilian casualties from their bombs directly and the collapse of the tunnel.
Hamas was using the camp to hide personnel, command and control, and weapons. Israel said they dropped flyers two weeks ago and have given repeated warnings for civilians to leave the area.
And Israel re-iterated that their rules of engagement have changed. After the warnings, they are going to act, and while they will attempt to minimize civilian casualties, they will no longer let the prospects of civilian casualties stop them.
----
Who committed the war crime?
You are correct to be skeptical of the Gaza Health Ministry.
You are naive to be trusting of the IDF.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 08:42:18 PM
You are correct to be skeptical of the Gaza Health Ministry.
You are naive to be trusting of the IDF.
Let's remind everyone how far this narrative has moved in six hours.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 02:28:44 PM
Does bombing a refugee camp count as indiscriminate? Or still not yet
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 05:43:31 PM
Good post, and you're right. Sam Harris indeed had an excellent essay on the sin of Moral Equivalence.
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/338-the-sin-of-moral-equivalence
He drives home the point that incompatible worldviews will never be compatible. And the worst thing we can do is make a moral equivalence of the two.
---
My add
And these views will be in perpetual conflict, constantly killing each other until the end of time, until one side prevails over the other.
And since these two sides cannot co-exist, I've asked which side you are on. You have to pick one. There is no middle ground, or the middle ground is constant war and death, and that is untenable.
That's a very good 15 min synopsis. I don't know what his solutions are as far as worldwide jihadists but his points are well taken.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 08:07:41 PM
Bombing in a war has never been prosecuted as collective punishment.
The most damning possible example of war crimes today though wasn't directly that bombing, it was the leaked document from the Israeli Intelligence Ministry recommending to use this opportunity to forcibly resettle 2.2 million Palestinians from Gaza in the Northern Sinai and constructing a buffer zone along the Israeli border to prevent their return.
https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/90869Israel has tried to distance itself as much as possible from the document, claiming it was a draft, because it would document the intent to commit multiple war crimes, including:
Deportation (considered a crime against humanity).
Forcible transfer, using force to intentionally cause internal displacement.
In the event of the above, disproportionate civilian deaths then also constitutes serious war crime (e.g. murder).
The document would appear to indicate that their military actions were designed to displace the Palestinians.
Not sure how the document got leaked, but it is a very bad look.
Quote from: forgetful on October 31, 2023, 08:59:12 PM
The most damning possible example of war crimes today though wasn't directly that bombing, it was the leaked document from the Israeli Intelligence Ministry recommending to use this opportunity to forcibly resettle 2.2 million Palestinians from Gaza in the Northern Sinai and constructing a buffer zone along the Israeli border to prevent their return.
https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/90869
Israel has tried to distance itself as much as possible from the document, claiming it was a draft, because it would document the intent to commit multiple war crimes, including:
Deportation (considered a crime against humanity).
Forcible transfer, using force to intentionally cause internal displacement.
In the event of the above, disproportionate civilian deaths then also constitutes serious war crime (e.g. murder).
The document would appear to indicate that their military actions were designed to displace the Palestinians.
Not sure how the document got leaked, but it is a very bad look.
Now THAT could start a real war. Egypt absolutely does not want Hamas within their borders. They're very worried about muslim brotherhood's resurgence. I bet they'd get into a shooting war over it.
I mean, nobody wants Palestinian refugees anywhere in the region. But people REALLY don't want Hamas people.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 08:44:01 PM
Let's remind everyone how far this narrative has moved in six hours.
What? Nobody - including IDF - is denying that IDF hit the camp, are they?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 31, 2023, 08:25:58 PM
But collective punishment has a specific definition that doesn't have to do with bombing during a war. And the whole camp wasn't vaporized. That's it. Everything else I typed was trying to support my statements. I think being specific and accurate helps talk about these things that are so emotionally charged for folks.
I think, even apart from this specific instance you guys are debating, is a very important piece and distinction of this whole situation. Cause people are throwing around super loaded words and phrases that are 1000% emotionally driven.
Comparing this to the Holocaust for example, not only is it disgusting and reprehensible, it's not even remotely close to similar or true.
Hell, prominent people are calling this "genocide" every day. Do they truly believe Israel intends to kill 2+ MM people? Do they believe Israel intends to kill 10%, even 5% of those people? To do so, they would have to kill 25 (12x) the number of Gazans that have lost their lives so far, not even counting the Palestinian population in the West Bank. Hell, it's nothing compared to what ISIS has done to Yazidis in Iraq and Syria.
Israel has done some horrible things and been overly aggressive in some of their military tactics, but that sort of label is preposterous when you look at it compared to actual recognized and defined genocides of the last 50 years.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2023, 09:38:42 PM
What? Nobody - including IDF - is denying that IDF hit the camp, are they?
Yeah needle on the story hasn't moved since that post, I'm a little confused by what changed. (DC desired narrative?)
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 10:03:09 PM
Yeah needle on the story hasn't moved since that post, I'm a little confused by what changed. (DC desired narrative?)
It was not indiscriminate
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 09:46:28 PM
I think, even apart from this specific instance you guys are debating, is a very important piece and distinction of this whole situation. Cause people are throwing around super loaded words and phrases that are 1000% emotionally driven.
Comparing this to the Holocaust for example, not only is it disgusting and reprehensible, it's not even remotely close to similar or true.
Hell, prominent people are calling this "genocide" every day. Do they truly believe Israel intends to kill 2+ MM people? Do they believe Israel intends to kill 10%, even 5% of those people? To do so, they would have to kill 25 (12x) the number of Gazans that have lost their lives so far, not even counting the Palestinian population in the West Bank. Hell, it's nothing compared to what ISIS has done to Yazidis in Iraq and Syria.
Israel has done some horrible things and been overly aggressive in some of their military tactics, but that sort of label is preposterous when you look at it compared to actual recognized and defined genocides of the last 50 years.
While I myself should adhere to your advice on loaded terms, (and for that Skatastrophy I apologize for being heated) let's also recognize here that Genocide isn't simply just killing everyone. It's violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.
If you believed Palestine is a nation (like a majority of the world according to official statehood recognition) or culture, the leaked document cited above falls under that umbrella as well as some others insistence that Palestine/Palestinians don't exist officially.
If you believe in any sort of Palestinian Autonomy, is forcing the entire nation into another region entirely not just that too?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 10:05:56 PM
It was not indiscriminate
What about bombing the exact areas you told civilians to move to?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703)
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 10:11:23 PM
While I myself should adhere to your advice on loaded terms, (and for that Skatastrophy I apologize for being heated) let's also recognize here that Genocide isn't simply just killing everyone. It's violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.
If you believed Palestine is a nation (like a majority of the world according to official statehood recognition) or culture, the leaked document cited above falls under that umbrella as well as some others insistence that Palestine/Palestinians don't exist officially.
If you believe in any sort of Palestinian Autonomy, is forcing the entire nation into another region entirely not just that too?
While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign. I don't think a military bombing campaign on a variety of targets is genocidal. Its not as if the IDF ground campaign is making its way through Gazan cities and towns strafing hundreds of civilians at every stop.
I think its been such a long time since there was a major war that got full scale international coverage, especially in the social media age, that people have this misguided thought of what war is or entails. If the IDF was truly genocidal in its goals and intents, the civilian death count would be massively higher already.
Same with people calling it "ethnic cleansing" ignoring the racial and ethnic diversity of Israel.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 10:21:29 PM
While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign. I don't think a military bombing campaign on a variety of targets is genocidal. Its not as if the IDF ground campaign is making its way through Gazan cities and towns strafing hundreds of civilians at every stop.
I think its been such a long time since there was a major war that got full scale international coverage, especially in the social media age, that people have this misguided thought of what war is or entails. If the IDF was truly genocidal in its goals and intents, the civilian death count would be massively higher already.
Same with people calling it "ethnic cleansing" ignoring the racial and ethnic diversity of Israel.
If Israel wanted to be genocidal they could be genocidal. It's that simple.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 10:21:29 PM
While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign.
Curious what do you think of the leaked document then from Israeli Intelligence?
And for the record, I agree with you on the overuse of very loaded and historically significant terms.
Quote from: forgetful on October 31, 2023, 10:36:50 PM
Curious what do you think of the leaked document then from Israeli Intelligence?
And for the record, I agree with you on the overuse of very loaded and historically significant terms.
It didn't come from official Israeli Intelligence (Mossad) or anyone high ranking in IDF. It is a policy proposal from the Ministry of Intelligence (which isn't historically known for having any great influence) which is currently headed by a far right Likud politician.
No different than an overly aggressive or policy proposal in the US that goes nowhere. I think its probably more an attempt to use the current crisis for political gain and motives than any realistic IDF plan of attack
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 10:49:10 PM
It didn't come from official Israeli Intelligence (Mossad) or anyone high ranking in IDF. It is a policy proposal from the Ministry of Intelligence (which isn't historically known for having any great influence) which is currently headed by a far right Likud politician.
No different than an overly aggressive or policy proposal in the US that goes nowhere. I think its probably more an attempt to use the current crisis for political gain and motives than any realistic IDF plan of attack
I was not that aware of the degree of influence of the Ministry of Intelligence.
From what I had read quickly, was that they oversee Mossad, and the descriptions suggested a more significant role in the decision making process than they apparently play.
It being a political ploy though makes sense as to why such a sensitive and possibly dangerous document was leaked though.
I appreciate the response and your insight.
A viral video by an Israeli citizen explains their point of view.
Done two weeks ago, this unknown YouTuber's video now has over 4.1 million views.
It is a good place to start if you want to get the Israeli perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNf40sBcvKk
Note, when he starts talking about "religion" and "values" at the end, he is 100% correct that this makes secular progressive Westerns very uncomfortable. And it is precisely that these subjects are so taboo to Western progressives that we get the tortured logic and the conceit that the secular Western progressive worldview is the only correct one, as seen in many of the posts immediately above this one.
Quote from: forgetful on October 31, 2023, 10:36:50 PM
Curious what do you think of the leaked document then from Israeli Intelligence?
And for the record, I agree with you on the overuse of very loaded and historically significant terms.
But is that far right faction not also the ones calling a lot of these shots?
Notable extreme anti-Arab National Security Minister Ben-Gvir had a mural of Baruch Goldstein in his house up until he made political moves for the 2020 election. In an interview, to an Arab-Israeli reporter named Mohammad Magadli, and said, "Sorry Mohammad, my right to life precedes yours, that is the reality."
Netanyahu has a whole novel of shenanigans but I do recall showing trump fake videos of the Palestinian president calling for the death of children in 2017. His entire political career has been spent undermining any peaceful creation of a Palestinian state.
The Israeli minister of finance and governor of the West Bank (Bezalel Smotrich) has credible allegations of attempting to blow up cars on a highway using nearly 200 gallons of gasoline in 2005. Not to mention aggressively anti LGBTQ in all regards.
I mean, I could go on but for the sake of TLDR; to wave it away and say that it's just a faction seems a bit too much like downplaying its influence.
And yes the government is not totally representative of its people. We all know this. But they have far more influence in decision making here than public consensus.
TLDR our rhetoric and actions are overly influenced by societal outliers
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on October 31, 2023, 11:20:06 PM
TLDR our rhetoric and actions are overly influenced by societal outliers
We agree. And I think others including JWags (sorry if I'm wrong, but I think you posted things along these lines) are very critical of the far-right Israeli politicians.
Extremists and Nationalists making decisions is never a good thing. And for a long time, extremists on both sides have been calling the shots.
Quote from: MuggsyB on October 31, 2023, 07:23:16 PM
How considerate of Yale to censor a pro Israel editorial in their student newspaper.
Yale didn't do anything. A student editor for one of the Yale newspapers removed one line from the article on the basis that the line made unsubstantiated claims. Whether those claims are actually unsubstantiated, I don't know.
The article also wasn't pro-Israel, it was criticizing a pro-Palestine student group.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 10:21:29 PM
While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign. I don't think a military bombing campaign on a variety of targets is genocidal. Its not as if the IDF ground campaign is making its way through Gazan cities and towns strafing hundreds of civilians at every stop.
I think its been such a long time since there was a major war that got full scale international coverage, especially in the social media age, that people have this misguided thought of what war is or entails. If the IDF was truly genocidal in its goals and intents, the civilian death count would be massively higher already.
Same with people calling it "ethnic cleansing" ignoring the racial and ethnic diversity of Israel.
Ukraine?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 10:21:29 PM
While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign. I don't think a military bombing campaign on a variety of targets is genocidal. Its not as if the IDF ground campaign is making its way through Gazan cities and towns strafing hundreds of civilians at every stop.
I think its been such a long time since there was a major war that got full scale international coverage, especially in the social media age, that people have this misguided thought of what war is or entails. If the IDF was truly genocidal in its goals and intents, the civilian death count would be massively higher already.
Same with people calling it "ethnic cleansing" ignoring the racial and ethnic diversity of Israel.
Isn't Russia's invasion of Ukraine a "major war?"
Regardless you are 100% correct that the extreme language that people are using isn't helping. It's turning something with lots of shades of gray into something black and white. And it's just not that black and white.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on October 31, 2023, 11:11:11 PM
A viral video by an Israeli citizen explains their point of view.
Done two weeks ago, this unknown YouTuber's video now has over 4.1 million views.
It is a good place to start if you want to get the Israeli perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNf40sBcvKk
Note, when he starts talking about "religion" and "values" at the end, he is 100% correct that this makes secular progressive Westerns very uncomfortable. And it is precisely that these subjects are so taboo to Western progressives that we get the tortured logic and the conceit that the secular Western progressive worldview is the only correct one, as seen in many of the posts immediately above this one.
Why are you so intent on using this issue to fight your culture war? It's pretty demented actually.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 01, 2023, 05:45:30 AM
Why are you so intent on using this issue to fight your culture war? It's pretty demented actually.
He's got hate in his heart. Every generation so many old people hate the young people, and I don't understand why. Maybe it's regret and sadness that the olds are fading away. A feeling of impotence as the fresh ideals of the young overwhelm the the collective consciousness as your generation slowly turns to dust.
I'll get to experience it in real time in the coming decades. I'll keep Scoop updated when I start feeling like the idealists are actively trying to ruin the world. I'm looking at you, Zoomers, with your skibidi toilet memes. Not a great start imo
Yeah, go back to mom jokes.
Quote from: forgetful on October 31, 2023, 11:29:34 PM
We agree. And I think others including JWags (sorry if I'm wrong, but I think you posted things along these lines) are very critical of the far-right Israeli politicians.
Extremists and Nationalists making decisions is never a good thing. And for a long time, extremists on both sides have been calling the shots.
Would you consider Hamas far-left?
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on November 01, 2023, 08:05:48 AM
Would you consider Hamas far-left?
I have no idea. I'm not an expert on Palestinian political parties. A quick google search says they are syncretic, meaning they combine ideas from all ends of the political spectrum.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 31, 2023, 10:21:29 PM
While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign.
What is the end game here, do you think? Turn north Gaza into something like an Area B/Area C in the West Bank? Create something of a buffer between south Gaza and Israel that is controlled and/or militarily occupied by Israeli forces?
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 01, 2023, 09:00:22 AM
What is the end game here, do you think? Turn north Gaza into something like an Area B/Area C in the West Bank? Create something of a buffer between south Gaza and Israel that is controlled and/or militarily occupied by Israeli forces?
Probably. But I think this is one of the larger concerns. What is the end game both short-term and long-term?
Quote from: tower912 on November 01, 2023, 07:49:04 AM
Yeah, go back to mom jokes.
Your momma's so fat because she eats to try to shake the disappointment she feels about you.
Glorious
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 01, 2023, 10:35:30 AM
Your momma's so fat because she eats to try to shake the disappointment she feels about you.
Your mother's an astronaut
I think the big difference between the different groups of posters here is that one group looks at this situation as a one side has to win, and whatever they have to do to achieve their goals, no matter how many civilians (and children) need to die it is justified for that side to win, in the view that one side has to win and the other to be removed.
The other group of posters views this as the fact that there are historically bad actions on both sides that have contributed to a culture of violence, and that more violence will never solve the issue. That both sides should have the right to independent sovereign states (two state solution). This side views all civilians lives as valuable, and that actions that disproportionately target civilians are wrong, period, and that they should not be just accepted.
Also a general questions.
Everyone agrees that the horrific terrorist attack against Israel was a crime against humanity, and should be denounced repeatedly. In those horrific attacks 1400 people died (~1100 civilians: 300 soldiers) and 220+ were taken hostage.
In the Israeli attacks on Gaza right now, ~9000 have died, including over 4000 children. Almost all were civilians. We know for at least 1 strike, at least 50 civilians were killed to target a single Hamas Commander.
As I posted a link to earlier, BBC has confirmed that Israel on multiple occasions have directed people to go to a specific area for safety, and then bombed the exact site they told civilians to go to. That is directly and intentionally targeting civilian populations.
In relation to the previous post. Many of the posters here say both are unjust, and are not acceptable. These views align with international law.
For those that think the latter is justified and acceptable, Why?
Brothers and Sisters:
Again, you have to stop thinking about the Middle East in terms of American social values. It's a complete waste of time.
The closest thing in our history is the Native Americans whose tribes were homesteading in North and South America when the Europeans arrives. Radio carbondating has now put human presence on the North American continent as 10,000 years ago or more. Heck, Vero (Beach) man is almost that old and he reportedly was seen two weeks ago at Holy Cross Catholic Church or at Cleveland Clinic Indian River Hospital.
Do we advocate for the Native Americans to become terrorists and drive caucasian man back to the sea? No, it would be foolhardy. Our culture calls for the Native American to be incorporated into our society -- and if they don't want to be, the Native American governs himself/herself on reservations. Our courts have generally been friendly to Native American reservation claims in recent years.
In the Middle East, some, including the Iranians, have called for driving the Jew back to the sea or shooting until every Jew is dead. That's Hamas' goal. The Israelis put the Palestinians -- including Hamas -- on a reservation and look where it got Israel. You cannot assume that when "tribal leaders" have a goal of eradicating every Jew in the Middle East, you're going to be able to live in peace. Not going to happen.
Quote from: forgetful on November 01, 2023, 11:42:52 AM
Also a general questions.
Everyone agrees that the horrific terrorist attack against Israel was a crime against humanity, and should be denounced repeatedly. In those horrific attacks 1400 people died (~1100 civilians: 300 soldiers) and 220+ were taken hostage.
In the Israeli attacks on Gaza right now, ~9000 have died, including over 4000 children. Almost all were civilians. We know for at least 1 strike, at least 50 civilians were killed to target a single Hamas Commander.
As I posted a link to earlier, BBC has confirmed that Israel on multiple occasions have directed people to go to a specific area for safety, and then bombed the exact site they told civilians to go to. That is directly and intentionally targeting civilian populations.
In relation to the previous post. Many of the posters here say both are unjust, and are not acceptable. These views align with international law.
For those that think the latter is justified and acceptable, Why?
During WW2 did the Allies change their goals to defeat the Nazis when there were German civilian deaths? Not only is Israel at War, We, Meaning the United States and Western Civilization is essentially at War. We are dealing with a potential Axis of Evil that can wreak insane suffering and death on the entire world. In the short term we're obviously dealing with Islamic Extremists/Jihadists.
Let me ask you a question: If in the near term Islamic Fundamentalists attack our homeland, in comparable fashion to what happened in Israel on Oct 7, meaning 40K+ murdered barbarrically, what do you think we should do exactly? Should we wait to be attacked or do everything in our power to eliminate the threat of Iran and its proxies.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 01, 2023, 12:33:20 PM
Let me ask you a question: If in the near term Islamic Fundamentalists attack our homeland, in comparable fashion to what happened in Israel on Oct 7, meaning 40K+ murdered barbarrically, what do you think we should do exactly?
Still as gross as the last time you made this weird proportionality point.
Quote from: dgies9156 on November 01, 2023, 12:14:42 PM
Brothers and Sisters:
Again, you have to stop thinking about the Middle East in terms of American social values. It's a complete waste of time.
The closest thing in our history is the Native Americans whose tribes were homesteading in North and South America when the Europeans arrives. Radio carbondating has now put human presence on the North American continent as 10,000 years ago or more. Heck, Vero (Beach) man is almost that old and he reportedly was seen two weeks ago at Holy Cross Catholic Church or at Cleveland Clinic Indian River Hospital.
Do we advocate for the Native Americans to become terrorists and drive caucasian man back to the sea? No, it would be foolhardy. Our culture calls for the Native American to be incorporated into our society -- and if they don't want to be, the Native American governs himself/herself on reservations. Our courts have generally been friendly to Native American reservation claims in recent years.
In the Middle East, some, including the Iranians, have called for driving the Jew back to the sea or shooting until every Jew is dead. That's Hamas' goal. The Israelis put the Palestinians -- including Hamas -- on a reservation and look where it got Israel. You cannot assume that when "tribal leaders" have a goal of eradicating every Jew in the Middle East, you're going to be able to live in peace. Not going to happen.
Brother dgies, "Death to America" is cheered as gleefully as "Death to Israel" there. There was a Hamas fkbag, who after brutally murdering 10 innocent Israelis, called his mom. She replied euphorically how proud she was of him when he told her "I killed 10 Jews today mom!" This is what we're dealing with.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 01, 2023, 12:38:39 PM
Still as gross as the last time you made this weird proportionality point.
It's a fact.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 01, 2023, 12:40:31 PM
It's a fact.
"Do you know that when the Pope dies in Vatican City, its the equivalent of the entire population of Omaha dying at once!"
That's a fact too. But it's not really relevant to anything.
Good News - Egypt is letting in a few refugees
Israel, Egypt, Hamas, the United States and Qatar negotiated the deal. Well done it's a start.
NYT blurb
> Scores of people — some with dual nationalities and other seriously injured Palestinians — arrived in Egypt on Wednesday, a border official said, after the Gaza border was opened under an international agreement to allow a few categories of people to cross. They were the first such exits from Gaza since the start of the war between Hamas and Israel.
Ambulances shuttled 76 critically injured people and members of their families into Egypt from Gaza, said Wael Abu Mohsen, a spokesman for the Gaza side of the Rafah border crossing. Gravely wounded Palestinians were being taken to nearby hospitals in Egypt, Gazan health officials said
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 01, 2023, 05:44:23 AM
Isn't Russia's invasion of Ukraine a "major war?"
Thats fair, I guess I view that as more of a one sided incursion, but you're not wrong. I guess the media coverage feels a bit different than this.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 01, 2023, 09:00:22 AM
What is the end game here, do you think? Turn north Gaza into something like an Area B/Area C in the West Bank? Create something of a buffer between south Gaza and Israel that is controlled and/or militarily occupied by Israeli forces?
I don't have a firm answer for that. But it feels, outside of the far right wishes, like "root out/eliminate Hamas" and then deal with the aftermath later. I think a buffer is probably needed for a feeling of safety in the near term, but I'm not sure. I think beyond the obvious fall out from the IDF's campaign into Gaza, so much of the near and mid term future is unknown cause it depends on the state of Hamas/PIJ and how that may play into Fatah's stature in the West Bank and futher and whatnot.
Quote from: forgetful on November 01, 2023, 11:42:52 AM
Also a general questions.
Everyone agrees that the horrific terrorist attack against Israel was a crime against humanity, and should be denounced repeatedly. In those horrific attacks 1400 people died (~1100 civilians: 300 soldiers) and 220+ were taken hostage.
In the Israeli attacks on Gaza right now, ~9000 have died, including over 4000 children. Almost all were civilians. We know for at least 1 strike, at least 50 civilians were killed to target a single Hamas Commander.
War is disgusting and horrible at all levels, but sometimes you have to think in strategic absolutes. If a valuable Hamas commander being eliminated could fundamentally weaken Hamas' strategy, planning, forces, ability to bounce back from IDF attacks...then it may very well be worth eliminating at civilian cost. If the US had known that the hijackers from 9/11 could have been taken out the first weekend of September but it would have meant killing 75 civilians in a building with them to do so, thats a obviously a difficult choice but not a "ITS NEVER WORTH KILLING CIVILIANS" black and white absolute.
I don't know the specifics of the Hamas leader who was targeted and eliminated, but simplifying it down to "1 person is never worth 50 civilians", like it was just some random Hamas soldier, isn't necessarily fair at broadest brush.
Quote from: forgetful on November 01, 2023, 11:42:52 AM
As I posted a link to earlier, BBC has confirmed that Israel on multiple occasions have directed people to go to a specific area for safety, and then bombed the exact site they told civilians to go to. That is directly and intentionally targeting civilian populations.
In relation to the previous post. Many of the posters here say both are unjust, and are not acceptable. These views align with international law.
For those that think the latter is justified and acceptable, Why?
So I read into that as well, and its again a little more shades of grey. They didn't say "go to the Fiserv Forum for safety" and then bombed the Fiserv Forum. It was more general areas of southern Gaza, but then the IDF has also said they would not be completely stopping attacks in southern Gaza, which leads to strikes in the vicinity of civilians that have moved.
I dont disagree its nasty business and that the IDF could afford to be more tactical and cautious in some of their attacks, but I do object to this idea that the IDF is directing civilians to hot spots to easily attack those hotspots like shooting fish in a barrel. It does nothing to further their goals/mission and only further hurts their cause. As I said before, if Israel truly wanted to be genocidal and engage in good old ethnic cleansing, they have had every opportunity and resources to do so without skirting around the edges, which is wholly ineffective if that was truly the goal.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 01, 2023, 12:40:31 PM
It's a fact.
Its a proportion. And one that you are torturing to do work that it just can't do. Would identical attacks that kill 5,000 people in China, the United States, and Israel warrant different responses because of the populations of those countries? That's a morally bankrupt way to view anything.
And the idea of using 9/11 as some sort of measuring stick is pretty weird.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 01, 2023, 12:44:35 PM
"Do you know that when the Pope dies in Vatican City, its the equivalent of the entire population of Omaha dying at once!"
That's a fact too. But it's not really relevant to anything.
lol
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 01, 2023, 01:14:36 PM
And the idea of using 9/11 as some sort of measuring stick is pretty weird.
Yeah I'm not so sure our cause and response to 9/11 is one to be modeled after.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 01, 2023, 01:14:36 PM
And the idea of using 9/11 as some sort of measuring stick is pretty weird.
Not sure if you're referring to me or what Muggsy has been ranting on. I was just trying to think of a huge "if you do this you can prevent further deaths/attacks/etc..." example. Not that 9/11 should be any blueprint for global conflict response/resolution/etc... Just the notion that sometimes in war ends justifying the means can't immediately be assessed the very next day.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 01, 2023, 01:52:56 PM
Not sure if you're referring to me or what Muggsy has been ranting on. I was just trying to think of a huge "if you do this you can prevent further deaths/attacks/etc..." example. Not that 9/11 should be any blueprint for global conflict response/resolution/etc... Just the notion that sometimes in war ends justifying the means can't immediately be assessed the very next day.
Fair enough, but waiting until later to determine if the ends justify the means can be quite the slippery slope to rationalization. I think you make a valid enough point though.
Palestinian citizens = Nazis?
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/house-republican-says-the-term-innocent-palestinian-civilians-is-like-saying-innocent-nazi-civilians/
Quote from: Pakuni on November 01, 2023, 04:17:35 PM
Palestinian citizens = Nazis?
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/house-republican-says-the-term-innocent-palestinian-civilians-is-like-saying-innocent-nazi-civilians/
Consider the source.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 01, 2023, 01:01:30 PM
So I read into that as well, and its again a little more shades of grey. They didn't say "go to the Fiserv Forum for safety" and then bombed the Fiserv Forum. It was more general areas of southern Gaza, but then the IDF has also said they would not be completely stopping attacks in southern Gaza, which leads to strikes in the vicinity of civilians that have moved.
I dont disagree its nasty business and that the IDF could afford to be more tactical and cautious in some of their attacks, but I do object to this idea that the IDF is directing civilians to hot spots to easily attack those hotspots like shooting fish in a barrel. It does nothing to further their goals/mission and only further hurts their cause. As I said before, if Israel truly wanted to be genocidal and engage in good old ethnic cleansing, they have had every opportunity and resources to do so without skirting around the edges, which is wholly ineffective if that was truly the goal.
In general, I agree they never said they would stop attacks in southern Gaza which I think is ok, but I disagree with the bolded. In the cases described by the BBC (particularly the Rafah bombings) they pretty much did exactly that.
They told people to leave specific neighborhoods and go to the shelter in the Rafah city center. Then bombed the exact location in the Rafah city center (and didn't bomb the neighborhoods they warned).
Similarly, in Khan Younis, they told them to seek safety in the Khan Younis city center, and then promptly bombed the city center.
That would be like telling people in Mequon to go to the Fiserv for safety, and then bombing downtown Milwaukee.
There really needs to be very specific and detailed explanations for these actions, because there are no good explanations. Israel offered no explanations when contacted.
The only war crimes being committed are by Hamas. Using Palestinians as human shields is a war crime. Not allowing them to leave is a war crime. Based on the ruthless and barbaric murders of Hamas the fact that Israel is using any restraint at all is remarkable.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 01, 2023, 09:05:58 PM
The only war crimes being committed are by Hamas. Using Palestinians as human shields is a war crime. Not allowing them to leave is a war crime. Based on the ruthless and barbaric murders of Hamas the fact that Israel is using any restraint at all is remarkable.
dear lord
So, what is the proportional response when this is what your enemy says?
He has a wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazi_Hamad
Israel is in a fight for its very survival, and Hamas will pay a terrible price, and so will the civilians who want to be Maytrs.
-----
Hamas Official: We Will Repeat October 7 Attacks Until Israel Is Annihilated
The existence of Israel is the root of all violence and pain, Hamas official Ghazi Hamad tells Lebanese TV
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/hamas-official-we-will-repeat-october-7-attacks-until-israel-is-annihilated/0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000
A senior Hamas official said in an interview aired last week that the October 7 attack against Israel were just the beginning, vowing to launch "a second, a third, a fourth" attack until the country is "annihilated."
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
Ghazi Hamad – whose comments were transcribed by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), a Washington-based think tank – added in the LBC interview that "Israel has no place on our land. We must remove the country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe."
As for the October 7 attacks – which left more than 1,300 Israelis in the south slaughtered and hundreds dragged into the Gaza Strip – Hamad declared that "we must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again."
Regarding the wholesale killing of civilians, Hamad said "Hamas did not want to harm civilians, but there were complications on the ground." Hamad added that "everything we do is justified."
Hamas terrorists who attacked Gaza border communities were found with detailed maps and documentation indicating intent to take over schools and abduct citizens, including children.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 01, 2023, 05:45:30 AM
Why are you so intent on using this issue to fight your culture war? It's pretty demented actually.
It makes you uncomfortable ... doesn't it?
Worldviews that do not fit Western Progressive ideology (the only correct worldview!) tend to do this. So those views must be "demented."
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on November 01, 2023, 09:32:40 PM
dear lord
And speaking of the Western progressive Worldview that cannot handle anything but what they think is correct because what they think is the only correct way to view things.
And nice touch with the religious Christian reference to genocidal Muslims. It is very "colonizing" of you.
Good piece on Western Progressive thought unable to see different worldviews.
(bold is my emphasis)
-----
The Day the Delusions Died
A lot of people woke up on October 7 as progressives and went to bed that night feeling like conservatives. What changed?
By Konstantin Kisin
October 22, 2023
https://www.thefp.com/p/the-day-the-delusions-died-konstantin-kisin
When Hamas terrorists crossed over the border with Israel and murdered 1,400 innocent people, they destroyed families and entire communities. They also shattered long-held delusions in the West.
A friend of mine joked that she woke up on October 7 as a liberal and went to bed that evening as a 65-year-old conservative. But it wasn't really a joke and she wasn't the only one. What changed?
The best way to answer that question is with the help of Thomas Sowell, one of the most brilliant public intellectuals alive today. In 1987, Sowell published A Conflict of Visions. In this now-classic, he offers a simple and powerful explanation of why people disagree about politics. We disagree about politics, Sowell argues, because we disagree about human nature. We see the world through one of two competing visions, each of which tells a radically different story about human nature.
Those with "unconstrained vision" think that humans are malleable and can be perfected. They believe that social ills and evils can be overcome through collective action that encourages humans to behave better. To subscribers of this view, poverty, crime, inequality, and war are not inevitable. Rather, they are puzzles that can be solved. We need only to say the right things, enact the right policies, and spend enough money, and we will suffer these social ills no more. This worldview is the foundation of the progressive mindset.
By contrast, those who see the world through a "constrained vision" lens believe that human nature is a universal constant. No amount of social engineering can change the sober reality of human self-interest, or the fact that human empathy and social resources are necessarily scarce. People who see things this way believe that most political and social problems will never be "solved"; they can only be managed. This approach is the bedrock of the conservative worldview.
Hamas's barbarism—and the explanations and celebrations throughout the West that followed their orgy of violence—have forced an overnight exodus from the "unconstrained" camp into the "constrained" one.
The Reality of Woke Ideology
Many people woke up on October 7 sympathetic to parts of woke ideology and went to bed that evening questioning how they had signed on to a worldview that had nothing to say about the mass rape and murder of innocent people by terrorists.
The reaction to the attacks—from outwardly pro-Hamas protests to the mealy-mouthed statements of college presidents, celebrities, and CEOs—has exploded the comforting stories many on the center-left have told themselves about progressive identity politics. For many years, they opted for the coping mechanism of pretending that the institutional capture of universities, corporations, and media organizations by the woke mind virus was no big deal. "Sure, students shutting down events they disagree with is annoying," they would say, "but it's just students doing what students do."
October 8 was a wake-up call for those who didn't appreciate that the ideology of the campus has spread to our cities, supercharged by social media.
We woke up on October 8 to the clamor of street protests in cities across the West condemning Israel even before any major Israeli response to the attacks. We watched celebratory crowds brandish swastikas and chant "gas the Jews" at events purporting to be about the loss of Palestinian lives. We saw Black Lives Matter chapters lionize terrorists.
In London, where I live, we watched the mayor deliver glib assurances that "London's diversity is our greatest strength" in the midst of a wave of antisemitic attacks, and as Jewish schools were forced to close because of safety concerns.
Across the West, we noticed that our representatives refused to condemn Hamas's kidnappings, and that the legacy media was all too eager to swallow and regurgitate Hamas propaganda.
Prior to the October 7 massacre, many students, alumni, and donors with the "unconstrained vision" trusted that the university—for all its many problems—remained the West's best environment for civil discourse.
But then they watched university presidents who were quick to issue statements condemning the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the killing of George Floyd fall silent, or offer the most slippery, equivocal statements carefully crafted to avoid offending anti-Israel groups. They watched an Israeli at Columbia get beaten with a stick, and heard reports about the physical intimidation of students on campuses across the country. They read about dozens of student organizations at Harvard signing a letter holding Israel "entirely responsible" for the massacre of Israelis.
The events of the last two weeks have shattered the illusion that wokeness is about protecting victims and standing up for persecuted minorities. This ideology is and has always been about the one thing many of us have told you it is about for years: power. And after the last two weeks, there can be no doubt about how these people will use any power they seize: they will seek to destroy, in any way they can, those who disagree.
This unpleasant conclusion is surprising only if you are still clinging to the unconstrained vision. But if there is any constant in human history, it is that revolutionaries always feel entitled to destroy those who stand in their way.
Just as hope about the possibility of peace with jihadists seems suicidally naive, reconciliation with citizens seized by the woke mindset seems a long way off.
Immigration
Nowhere is the shift from the unconstrained to constrained vision starkest than on immigration.
For decades, both Europe and America basked in an "unconstrained vision" of immigration. In the U.S., the melting pot that could integrate the nineteenth-century Germans, Irish Catholics, or Japanese could surely absorb those crossing the southern border. And many of these new arrivals would do jobs Americans didn't want to do. Europe needed immigration to deal with an aging population, with many European countries inviting people from their former colonies to fill labor shortages and skills gaps.
But over time, especially from the late 1990s onward, the unconstrained vision ran rampant through media and political elites, and immigration went from being a solution to specific problems to a moral good in its own right. (I am myself an immigrant. When I moved to Britain from Russia in 1996, net immigration into Britain ran at 55,000 people a year. Last year, net immigration stood at over 600,000 people.)
Over the past decade, more and more people in America and Europe have quietly shifted toward the "constrained" view of immigration. The Brexit referendum and the election of Donald Trump were early warning signs of this ongoing transformation. Today, we see New York, where nearly 60,000 newly arrived migrants are putting tremendous strain on shelters and city services like healthcare, education, and public transport. The city has already spent over $1 billion to address this crisis, and projections indicate that housing costs alone could exceed $4.3 billion by next summer. Lifelong Democrats in Manhattan tell The New York Times that "we have too many people coming in," and that "Biden could do something more about putting our borders up a little stronger. I mean, we're not here to take in the whole world. We can only do so much."
Europeans have learned similar lessons from their own migrant crisis. In Britain, we spend approximately $10 million a day on hotels for people who have come here illegally. We refuse to deport foreign criminals over "human rights" concerns. Readers may recall seeing recent media reports about the small Italian island of Lampedusa, whose population quadrupled in a day as large numbers of illegal immigrants arrived. We have now learned that a man who shot two Swedish soccer fans dead in a terror attack in Brussels last week arrived there illegally via the island in 2011. The man was known to the authorities as a security risk due to his jihadi links, but when his asylum application was rejected in 2020, he was not deported. How many such people are allowed to come and stay in Europe is impossible to say, as hundreds of thousands of people make illegal crossings into Europe every year.
But despite these shocking statistics, the issue of illegal immigration has been impossible to discuss in polite company for decades. No matter how bad the problem became, to raise concerns about it would almost always lead to accusations of bigotry and xenophobia.
What we have witnessed over the last two weeks—with enormous pro-Hamas rallies in cities like London, Paris, and Washington, D.C.—has the potential to change the immigration debate in a decisive way. It is much harder to pretend that allowing people to enter our country illegally is a moral good when you watch some of them celebrate mass murder in the streets of your capital cities.
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has recently announced the intention to deport illegal immigrants "on a large scale" as his coalition hemorrhages votes to anti-immigration parties. France has banned pro-Palestine protests and warned that foreign nationals who take part will be removed from the country. Britain has also threatened to revoke the visas of foreigners who praise Hamas. Whether this represents a permanent realignment toward a more constrained view of immigration or merely a temporary blip on the path to progressive dystopia remains to be seen.
Border Security
To express concern about border security has for many years been coded as "right-wing." But how many people, after the horrors of October 7, believe that a secure border is anything other than the most basic test of national security?
I have just returned from a week in Los Angeles where, on recognizing my name, every single Armenian Lyft driver struck up a conversation in Russian. Once the inevitable complaints about the rising cost of living were out of the way, several shared with me their own journeys into the U.S. and those of their families. I was struck by the fact that those who came in the 1990s and 2000s had usually come legally, but more recent arrivals had made their way through Mexico. One man told me about smuggling his two brothers and 80-year-old father through the southern border: "It's easy," he told me.
I have no doubt he is correct: 2023 saw the highest number of illegal crossings since records began. And polling shows that the American people, who are otherwise uniquely welcoming of new arrivals, aren't happy about it. The problem with illegal immigration isn't just its scale; it's that we have no idea whether the people coming are 80-year-old Armenian retirees or jihadi terrorists plotting another 9/11.
It is clearer now than ever before that borders aren't about bigotry, they're about security. In a sign of the times, Joe Biden is now continuing work on the border wall that Democrats spent years criticizing Donald Trump for erecting.
The West
The reason the readjustment is necessary and, in my view, highly likely, is that proponents of the unconstrained vision have been allowed to ride roughshod over the concerns of ordinary citizens. They have used this window of opportunity to implement extraordinarily impractical and outright harmful ideas because they take the unbelievable levels of safety, plenty, and freedom we enjoy in the West for granted. The one form of privilege you will never hear them address is the first-world privilege that we all benefit from every day.
They have done this because the fundamental flaw in the unconstrained model of the world is a failure to understand Thomas Sowell's greatest maxim: there are no solutions, only trade-offs. When you let your institutions be captured by an ideology of intolerance and illiberalism masquerading as progress, that has consequences. When you sow division at home and signal weakness abroad, that has consequences. When you debase the public's faith in what they are told by the media and their government, that has consequences too.
Western civilization has produced some of the most stunning scientific, technological, social, and cultural breakthroughs in human history. If you consider yourself "liberal" or even "progressive," it must surely be clear by now that America and her allies are the only places in the world where your values are even considered values. If our civilization is allowed to collapse, it will not be replaced by a progressive utopia. It will be replaced by chaos and barbarism.
Will this waking-up moment persist? It depends, in large part, on our courage to look reality in the face.
As Sowell explained, "When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear."
And the truth is that we have indulged in magical thinking for too long, choosing comforting myths over harsh realities. About terrorism. About immigration. And about a host of other issues. In our hunger for progress, we have forgotten that not all change is for the better. Now the world is paying the price for that self-indulgence. Let's hope recent events are the wake-up call we so desperately need.
It is really pathetic that the top law firms have lost so much trust in the administration of law schools that they feel it necessary to police them.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9444vRW4AAPqb8?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
The law school letter above might be in response to this video.
It shows Harvard students physically attacking Jewish students on campus.
One of them is Ibrahim Bharmal, editor of the Harvard Law Review.
He has not been disciplined or suspended.
https://canarymission.org/individual/Ibrahim_Bharmal
Thought experiment - if a white editor of the Harvard Law Review physically attacked a minority or LGBTQ+ student, how do you think Harvard would have responded?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 01, 2023, 10:38:14 PM
Good piece on the Western Progressive thought be unable to see a worldview that differs from what they think.
(bold is my emphasis)
-----
The Day the Delusions Died
A lot of people woke up on October 7 as progressives and went to bed that night feeling like conservatives. What changed?
By Konstantin Kisin
October 22, 2023
https://www.thefp.com/p/the-day-the-delusions-died-konstantin-kisin
When Hamas terrorists crossed over the border with Israel and murdered 1,400 innocent people, they destroyed families and entire communities. They also shattered long-held delusions in the West.
A friend of mine joked that she woke up on October 7 as a liberal and went to bed that evening as a 65-year-old conservative. But it wasn't really a joke and she wasn't the only one. What changed?
The best way to answer that question is with the help of Thomas Sowell, one of the most brilliant public intellectuals alive today. In 1987, Sowell published A Conflict of Visions. In this now-classic, he offers a simple and powerful explanation of why people disagree about politics. We disagree about politics, Sowell argues, because we disagree about human nature. We see the world through one of two competing visions, each of which tells a radically different story about human nature.
Those with "unconstrained vision" think that humans are malleable and can be perfected. They believe that social ills and evils can be overcome through collective action that encourages humans to behave better. To subscribers of this view, poverty, crime, inequality, and war are not inevitable. Rather, they are puzzles that can be solved. We need only to say the right things, enact the right policies, and spend enough money, and we will suffer these social ills no more. This worldview is the foundation of the progressive mindset.
By contrast, those who see the world through a "constrained vision" lens believe that human nature is a universal constant. No amount of social engineering can change the sober reality of human self-interest, or the fact that human empathy and social resources are necessarily scarce. People who see things this way believe that most political and social problems will never be "solved"; they can only be managed. This approach is the bedrock of the conservative worldview.
Hamas's barbarism—and the explanations and celebrations throughout the West that followed their orgy of violence—have forced an overnight exodus from the "unconstrained" camp into the "constrained" one.
The Reality of Woke Ideology
Many people woke up on October 7 sympathetic to parts of woke ideology and went to bed that evening questioning how they had signed on to a worldview that had nothing to say about the mass rape and murder of innocent people by terrorists.
The reaction to the attacks—from outwardly pro-Hamas protests to the mealy-mouthed statements of college presidents, celebrities, and CEOs—has exploded the comforting stories many on the center-left have told themselves about progressive identity politics. For many years, they opted for the coping mechanism of pretending that the institutional capture of universities, corporations, and media organizations by the woke mind virus was no big deal. "Sure, students shutting down events they disagree with is annoying," they would say, "but it's just students doing what students do."
October 8 was a wake-up call for those who didn't appreciate that the ideology of the campus has spread to our cities, supercharged by social media.
We woke up on October 8 to the clamor of street protests in cities across the West condemning Israel even before any major Israeli response to the attacks. We watched celebratory crowds brandish swastikas and chant "gas the Jews" at events purporting to be about the loss of Palestinian lives. We saw Black Lives Matter chapters lionize terrorists.
In London, where I live, we watched the mayor deliver glib assurances that "London's diversity is our greatest strength" in the midst of a wave of antisemitic attacks, and as Jewish schools were forced to close because of safety concerns.
Across the West, we noticed that our representatives refused to condemn Hamas's kidnappings, and that the legacy media was all too eager to swallow and regurgitate Hamas propaganda.
Prior to the October 7 massacre, many students, alumni, and donors with the "unconstrained vision" trusted that the university—for all its many problems—remained the West's best environment for civil discourse.
But then they watched university presidents who were quick to issue statements condemning the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the killing of George Floyd fall silent, or offer the most slippery, equivocal statements carefully crafted to avoid offending anti-Israel groups. They watched an Israeli at Columbia get beaten with a stick, and heard reports about the physical intimidation of students on campuses across the country. They read about dozens of student organizations at Harvard signing a letter holding Israel "entirely responsible" for the massacre of Israelis.
The events of the last two weeks have shattered the illusion that wokeness is about protecting victims and standing up for persecuted minorities. This ideology is and has always been about the one thing many of us have told you it is about for years: power. And after the last two weeks, there can be no doubt about how these people will use any power they seize: they will seek to destroy, in any way they can, those who disagree.
This unpleasant conclusion is surprising only if you are still clinging to the unconstrained vision. But if there is any constant in human history, it is that revolutionaries always feel entitled to destroy those who stand in their way.
Just as hope about the possibility of peace with jihadists seems suicidally naive, reconciliation with citizens seized by the woke mindset seems a long way off.
Immigration
Nowhere is the shift from the unconstrained to constrained vision starkest than on immigration.
For decades, both Europe and America basked in an "unconstrained vision" of immigration. In the U.S., the melting pot that could integrate the nineteenth-century Germans, Irish Catholics, or Japanese could surely absorb those crossing the southern border. And many of these new arrivals would do jobs Americans didn't want to do. Europe needed immigration to deal with an aging population, with many European countries inviting people from their former colonies to fill labor shortages and skills gaps.
But over time, especially from the late 1990s onward, the unconstrained vision ran rampant through media and political elites, and immigration went from being a solution to specific problems to a moral good in its own right. (I am myself an immigrant. When I moved to Britain from Russia in 1996, net immigration into Britain ran at 55,000 people a year. Last year, net immigration stood at over 600,000 people.)
Over the past decade, more and more people in America and Europe have quietly shifted toward the "constrained" view of immigration. The Brexit referendum and the election of Donald Trump were early warning signs of this ongoing transformation. Today, we see New York, where nearly 60,000 newly arrived migrants are putting tremendous strain on shelters and city services like healthcare, education, and public transport. The city has already spent over $1 billion to address this crisis, and projections indicate that housing costs alone could exceed $4.3 billion by next summer. Lifelong Democrats in Manhattan tell The New York Times that "we have too many people coming in," and that "Biden could do something more about putting our borders up a little stronger. I mean, we're not here to take in the whole world. We can only do so much."
Europeans have learned similar lessons from their own migrant crisis. In Britain, we spend approximately $10 million a day on hotels for people who have come here illegally. We refuse to deport foreign criminals over "human rights" concerns. Readers may recall seeing recent media reports about the small Italian island of Lampedusa, whose population quadrupled in a day as large numbers of illegal immigrants arrived. We have now learned that a man who shot two Swedish soccer fans dead in a terror attack in Brussels last week arrived there illegally via the island in 2011. The man was known to the authorities as a security risk due to his jihadi links, but when his asylum application was rejected in 2020, he was not deported. How many such people are allowed to come and stay in Europe is impossible to say, as hundreds of thousands of people make illegal crossings into Europe every year.
But despite these shocking statistics, the issue of illegal immigration has been impossible to discuss in polite company for decades. No matter how bad the problem became, to raise concerns about it would almost always lead to accusations of bigotry and xenophobia.
What we have witnessed over the last two weeks—with enormous pro-Hamas rallies in cities like London, Paris, and Washington, D.C.—has the potential to change the immigration debate in a decisive way. It is much harder to pretend that allowing people to enter our country illegally is a moral good when you watch some of them celebrate mass murder in the streets of your capital cities.
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has recently announced the intention to deport illegal immigrants "on a large scale" as his coalition hemorrhages votes to anti-immigration parties. France has banned pro-Palestine protests and warned that foreign nationals who take part will be removed from the country. Britain has also threatened to revoke the visas of foreigners who praise Hamas. Whether this represents a permanent realignment toward a more constrained view of immigration or merely a temporary blip on the path to progressive dystopia remains to be seen.
Border Security
To express concern about border security has for many years been coded as "right-wing." But how many people, after the horrors of October 7, believe that a secure border is anything other than the most basic test of national security?
I have just returned from a week in Los Angeles where, on recognizing my name, every single Armenian Lyft driver struck up a conversation in Russian. Once the inevitable complaints about the rising cost of living were out of the way, several shared with me their own journeys into the U.S. and those of their families. I was struck by the fact that those who came in the 1990s and 2000s had usually come legally, but more recent arrivals had made their way through Mexico. One man told me about smuggling his two brothers and 80-year-old father through the southern border: "It's easy," he told me.
I have no doubt he is correct: 2023 saw the highest number of illegal crossings since records began. And polling shows that the American people, who are otherwise uniquely welcoming of new arrivals, aren't happy about it. The problem with illegal immigration isn't just its scale; it's that we have no idea whether the people coming are 80-year-old Armenian retirees or jihadi terrorists plotting another 9/11.
It is clearer now than ever before that borders aren't about bigotry, they're about security. In a sign of the times, Joe Biden is now continuing work on the border wall that Democrats spent years criticizing Donald Trump for erecting.
The West
The reason the readjustment is necessary and, in my view, highly likely, is that proponents of the unconstrained vision have been allowed to ride roughshod over the concerns of ordinary citizens. They have used this window of opportunity to implement extraordinarily impractical and outright harmful ideas because they take the unbelievable levels of safety, plenty, and freedom we enjoy in the West for granted. The one form of privilege you will never hear them address is the first-world privilege that we all benefit from every day.
They have done this because the fundamental flaw in the unconstrained model of the world is a failure to understand Thomas Sowell's greatest maxim: there are no solutions, only trade-offs. When you let your institutions be captured by an ideology of intolerance and illiberalism masquerading as progress, that has consequences. When you sow division at home and signal weakness abroad, that has consequences. When you debase the public's faith in what they are told by the media and their government, that has consequences too.
Western civilization has produced some of the most stunning scientific, technological, social, and cultural breakthroughs in human history. If you consider yourself "liberal" or even "progressive," it must surely be clear by now that America and her allies are the only places in the world where your values are even considered values. If our civilization is allowed to collapse, it will not be replaced by a progressive utopia. It will be replaced by chaos and barbarism.
Will this waking-up moment persist? It depends, in large part, on our courage to look reality in the face.
As Sowell explained, "When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear."
And the truth is that we have indulged in magical thinking for too long, choosing comforting myths over harsh realities. About terrorism. About immigration. And about a host of other issues. In our hunger for progress, we have forgotten that not all change is for the better. Now the world is paying the price for that self-indulgence. Let's hope recent events are the wake-up call we so desperately need.
Thomas Sowell is a wise man.
Cornell arrested the student that made death and rape threats against Jewish students this past week.
He is a 21 junior studying computer science. He was a National Merit Scholar and had a perfect math score on the math section of the SAT
CBS describes him as:
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/cornell-students-shocked-by-arrest-of-fellow-student-patrick-dai-for-antisemitic-threats/
Dai is a Chinese American who grew up in Pittsford, N.Y., about 80 miles from the Ithaca campus.
He is currently sitting on a NY jail. And Gov. Kathy Hochul said Wednesday she wants Dai to face the harshest punishment possible, and is looking into whether state charges could also be filed against him.
"I want to make an example of this. As I said earlier to those students - if you do this, you will be caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law," Hochul said.
Jewish students at Columbia are coming forward to say they are being assaulted.
Thought experiment #2.
This (Columbia), Cornell, and Harvard stories are all less than 24 hours old. What would have been the response if we found three such incidents by white students against minorities/LGBTQ+ students?
We do not have to think hard about it. In 2017, we had one incident of white supremacists on the University of Virginia campus, and three years later, Biden used it as a significant campaign issue to run for president.
These incidents, and the ones that came before, and presumably the ones to come, are not (maybe yet) rising to this level.
Will they? Will this be what we are voting on in a year? The 2017 University of Virginia incident was in 2020 (at least Biden wanted that to be the case).
------
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/echoing-concerns-at-cornell-jewish-students-at-columbia-university-say-theyre-experiencing-antisemitism/
On Monday at Columbia, senior Noa Fay joined other Jewish students in demanding the university do more about antisemitism there as well.
"We have students on our campus calling out by name explicitly, that they want certain students on this campus to die slowly," Fay said.
"I don't feel safe. Someone had to make a group chat to escort Jewish students on campus," student Jessie Brenner added.
The NYPD confirmed that a swastika was found on a bathroom wall on Friday. Student Eli Shmidman said someone recently shouted an expletive at him as he walked into a campus building.
"He said (expletive) the Jews," Shmidman said. "I've seen them parrot foul antisemitic tropes.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 01, 2023, 10:52:17 PM
The law school letter above might be in response to this video.
It shows Harvard students physically attacking Jewish students on campus.
One of them is Ibrahim Bharmal, editor of the Harvard Law Review.
He has not been disciplined or suspended.
https://canarymission.org/individual/Ibrahim_Bharmal
Thought experiment - if a white editor of the Harvard Law Review physically attacked a minority or LGBTQ+ student, how do you think Harvard would have responded?
I watched the video. I honestly can't tell what's happening in the video. The cameraman appears to walk through the middle of a protest and they respond by holding up cloths and trying to herd him away from the protest (depending on the specifics, this could theoretically be a place that the university could intervene but it is tricky. From what I can tell, I think the university would have been within their rights to break up this protest). I can hear the cameraman say "stop touching me" and "stop grabbing me" repeatedly with people responding "no one is touching you" "no one is grabbing you". No grabbing or touching is captured on video, which doesn't mean it's not happening, I just can't conclude based on this video that Bharmal "physically attacked" a Jewish student, especially considering that Bharmal is only visible for about a second in the video and his hands are clearly not touching the cameraman at that point.
Also, how do you know Bharmal isn't being disciplined? These types of investigations typically take a couple of months (as a result of additional due process requirements put into place by the Trump administration). In the meantime, universities are not allowed to punish a student in any way except under very specific circumstances (which this would likely not qualify). Further, these proceedings are protected by FERPA so even if Bharmal is disciplined, the university cannot disclose that fact.
To answer your thought question, they would investigate. Which is what I assume Harvard is likely doing here, assuming there is a willing complainant (another Trump-era due process requirement though there are some loopholes to get around it).
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 01, 2023, 11:12:59 PM
Cornell arrested the student that made death and rape threats against Jewish students this past week.
He is a 21 junior studying computer science. He was a National Merit Scholar and had a perfect math score on the math section of the SAT
CBS describes him as:
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/cornell-students-shocked-by-arrest-of-fellow-student-patrick-dai-for-antisemitic-threats/
Dai is a Chinese American who grew up in Pittsford, N.Y., about 80 miles from the Ithaca campus.
He is currently sitting on a NY jail. And Gov. Kathy Hochul said Wednesday she wants Dai to face the harshest punishment possible, and is looking into whether state charges could also be filed against him.
"I want to make an example of this. As I said earlier to those students - if you do this, you will be caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law," Hochul said.
Huh, I guess universities do take this seriously after all. BTW, what Dai allegedly posted was not protected speech so open season on him.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 01, 2023, 11:29:34 PM
Jewish students at Columbia are coming forward to say they are being assaulted.
Thought experiment #2.
This (Columbia), Cornell, and Harvard stories are all less than 24 hours old. What would have been the response if we found three such incidents by white students against minorities/LGBTQ+ students?
I looked for stories about Jewish students at Columbia being assaulted within the past 24 hours, I didn't find any. I found one article mentioning the student who was assaulted several weeks ago (the article was about Columbia launching a new anti-semitism task force), I'm not sure if that's what you meant. My understanding in that case is that no suspect has been identified but it is being investigated as a hate crime. So to answer your thought experiment, they would handle it in the exact same way.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 01, 2023, 11:29:34 PM
We do not have to think hard about it. In 2017, we had one incident of white supremacists on the University of Virginia campus, and three years later, Biden used it as a significant campaign issue to run for president.
These incidents, and the ones that came before, and presumably the ones to come, are not (maybe yet) rising to this level.
Will they? Will this be what we are voting on in a year? The 2017 University of Virginia incident was in 2020 (at least Biden wanted that to be the case).
I do believe Gaza will be a huge topic during the election but given that both likely candidates are staunchly pro-Israel I'm not sure how much movement it will cause. I don't think the student protests will be a large topic because again, both likely candidates are coming down on the same side (whereas in 2017, one candidate tried to support both sides). I could see it playing a larger role in the greater election picture in specific local, state, and legislative elections.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 01, 2023, 10:29:39 PM
It makes you uncomfortable ... doesn't it?
Worldviews that do not fit Western Progressive ideology (the only correct worldview!) tend to do this. So those views must be "demented."
I'm not uncomfortable in the least. Why should I be?
I think I have a way better grasp on this than you do.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 01, 2023, 10:54:54 PM
Thomas Sowell is a wise man.
Not really. "Woke ideology" is a completely made up thing. It's a straw man of extreme political views that few people actually share.
Really? Unfookin' insane, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2023, 03:59:47 AM
Really? Unfookin' insane, hey?
I could see how someone who only engages in self-reinforcing narratives would feel that way.
But I'm absolutely correct. You should get out of your bubble for once.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 03:50:36 AM
I'm not uncomfortable in the least. Why should I be?
I think I have a way better grasp on this than you do.
i think another term would be, you are comfortable with your interpretation of the views you've been provided by your sources. in other words, it fits your narrative perfectly. you seem pretty comfortable with what is going on until you don't. then you minimize the views you don't like. you write off a lot because it is supported by sources you minimize
i know, you're going to ask to what specifically and straw men and victims and, blah blah...my word would be taking all of you views collectively over the past, i don't know, 15,000 posts and where you collect your paycheck-you are ground zero man. maybe not the epicenter of it all, but you're in the club and you know the secret handshake
"woke ideology" made up? of course it is...but it is real...foooked up, as doc would say
have ya ever seen a catch the greased pig contest? probably not, as they don't use that analogy much in the nyt, but i think you catch my drift, eyn'a?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 02, 2023, 05:51:07 AM
i think another term would be, you are comfortable with your interpretation of the views you've been provided by your sources. in other words, it fits your narrative perfectly. you seem pretty comfortable with what is going on until you don't. then you minimize the views you don't like. you write off a lot because it is supported by sources you minimize
i know, you're going to ask to what specifically and straw men and victims and, blah blah...my word would be taking all of you views collectively over the past, i don't know, 15,000 posts and where you collect your paycheck-you are ground zero man. maybe not the epicenter of it all, but you're in the club and you know the secret handshake
"woke ideology" made up? of course it is...but it is real...foooked up, as doc would say
have ya ever seen a catch the greased pig contest? probably not, as they don't use that analogy much in the nyt, but i think you catch my drift, eyn'a?
Thanks rocket. You always manage to prove my point. Unintentionally on your part of course...
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 03:54:44 AM
Not really. "Woke ideology" is a completely made up thing. It's a straw man of extreme political views that few people actually share.
How come all the GOP folks running for nomination suddenly stopped talking about woke ideology and how it's the greatest threat to our country?
Woke ideology is love your neighbor as yourself. Treat them equally and with respect. Regardless if they are male, female, white, shades of brown, who they love or how they identify.
Subversive stuff. Take it up with Jesus.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 03:54:44 AM
Not really. "Woke ideology" is a completely made up thing. It's a straw man of extreme political views that few people actually share.
Culture wars are a crutch for the feeble-minded.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 02, 2023, 05:51:07 AM
i think another term would be, you are comfortable with your interpretation of the views you've been provided by your sources. in other words, it fits your narrative perfectly. you seem pretty comfortable with what is going on until you don't. then you minimize the views you don't like. you write off a lot because it is supported by sources you minimize
i know, you're going to ask to what specifically and straw men and victims and, blah blah...my word would be taking all of you views collectively over the past, i don't know, 15,000 posts and where you collect your paycheck-you are ground zero man. maybe not the epicenter of it all, but you're in the club and you know the secret handshake
"woke ideology" made up? of course it is...but it is real...foooked up, as doc would say
have ya ever seen a catch the greased pig contest? probably not, as they don't use that analogy much in the nyt, but i think you catch my drift, eyn'a?
8 out of 10
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 02, 2023, 06:06:03 AM
How come all the GOP folks running for nomination suddenly stopped talking about woke ideology and how it's the greatest threat to our country?
Given Pudding Fingers was running his campaign on it and can't get within sniffing distance of a thrice-indicted loser, I wonder why
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 02, 2023, 12:13:52 AM
Also, how do you know Bharmal isn't being disciplined? These types of investigations typically take a couple of months (as a result of additional due process requirements put into place by the Trump administration). In the meantime, universities are not allowed to punish a student in any way except under very specific circumstances (which this would likely not qualify). Further, these proceedings are protected by FERPA so even if Bharmal is disciplined, the university cannot disclose that fact.
To answer your thought question, they would investigate. Which is what I assume Harvard is likely doing here, assuming there is a willing complainant (another Trump-era due process requirement though there are some loopholes to get around it).
The Cambridge police and Boston FBI should be investigating this. They should tell us if they believe a crime has occurred and if they have a person of interest(s)
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 05:23:02 AM
I could see how someone who only engages in self-reinforcing narratives would feel that way.
Pot meet kettle
Or is it, when one holds the correct Western Progressive View they are always correct.
——
Speaking of worldviews, you still believe this?
(Note, "not a serious person"= does not adhere the correct Western Progressive worldview. Because only serious people do.)
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 22, 2023, 11:49:37 AM
No this isn't a "war for the existance of a race of people." That's hyperbolic nonsense. I also never said that Israel should "calm down." That's just silly. Of course they need to severely weaken Hamas in response.
If Israel truly wants peace long-term, it has to treat Palestinians with more respect than they have shown. Don't violate agreements that you have made.
And this is why you aren't a serious person.
Does this change your worldview?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 01, 2023, 10:16:13 PM
So, what is the proportional response when this is what your enemy says?
He has a wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazi_Hamad
Israel is in a fight for its very survival, and Hamas will pay a terrible price, and so will the civilians who want to be Maytrs.
-----
Hamas Official: We Will Repeat October 7 Attacks Until Israel Is Annihilated
The existence of Israel is the root of all violence and pain, Hamas official Ghazi Hamad tells Lebanese TV
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/hamas-official-we-will-repeat-october-7-attacks-until-israel-is-annihilated/0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000
A senior Hamas official said in an interview aired last week that the October 7 attack against Israel were just the beginning, vowing to launch "a second, a third, a fourth" attack until the country is "annihilated."
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
Ghazi Hamad – whose comments were transcribed by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), a Washington-based think tank – added in the LBC interview that "Israel has no place on our land. We must remove the country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe."
As for the October 7 attacks – which left more than 1,300 Israelis in the south slaughtered and hundreds dragged into the Gaza Strip – Hamad declared that "we must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again."
Regarding the wholesale killing of civilians, Hamad said "Hamas did not want to harm civilians, but there were complications on the ground." Hamad added that "everything we do is justified."
Hamas terrorists who attacked Gaza border communities were found with detailed maps and documentation indicating intent to take over schools and abduct citizens, including children.
Note that your statement:
"If Israel truly wants peace long-term, it has to treat Palestinians with more respect than they have shown. Don't violate agreements that you have made."
This a textbook example of Thomas Sowell's unconstrained worldview.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:50:26 AM
Pot meet kettle
Or is it, when one holds the correct Western Progressive View they are always correct.
——
Speaking of worldviews, you still believe this?
(Note, "not a serious person"= does not adhere the correct Western Progressive worldview. Because only serious people do.)
Does this change your worldview?
Note that your statement:
"If Israel truly wants peace long-term, it has to treat Palestinians with more respect than they have shown. Don't violate agreements that you have made."
This a textbook example of Thomas Sowell's unconstrained worldview.
We probably shouldn't impose our western values in countries that don't want them
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:32:01 AM
The Cambridge police and Boston FBI should be investigating this. They should tell us if they believe a crime has occurred and if they have a person of interest(s)
Sounds like your worldview doesn't fit western criminal justice ideology.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:32:01 AM
The Cambridge police and Boston FBI should be investigating this. They should tell us if they believe a crime has occurred and if they have a person of interest(s)
If that is your belief, that is your belief. In my experience, the police and FBI don't investigate things like this unless the complainant asks them to. And even then, most times they decline to investigate.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 03:54:44 AM
Not really. "Woke ideology" is a completely made up thing. It's a straw man of extreme political views that few people actually share.
Your view of Woke ideology is exactly what those that adhere to the Western Progressive worldview (or Sowell's unconstrained worldview) think.
Your belief that very few people actually share it is 100% correct only if you exclusively travel and only exclusively believe in the Western Progressive worldview.
Outside of Western Progressive worldview, Woke ideology is very real.
But you seem to be admitting you have no way to know this.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 06:55:23 AM
We probably shouldn't impose our western values in countries that don't want them
You mean they should stop imposing their values on the west.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:01:59 AM
You mean they should stop imposing their values on the west.
Perhaps you can explain which values you're speaking of and which group of people you attribute those values to.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:01:59 AM
You mean they should stop imposing their values on the west.
Huh
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 07:15:40 AM
Huh
No idea, but I'm looking forward to the next word salad that he will have to explain over the next three pages instead of being direct and succinct.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:59:30 AM
Your view of Woke ideology is exactly what those that adhere to the Western Progressive worldview (or Sowell's unconstrained worldview) think.
Your belief that very few people actually share it is 100% correct only if you exclusively travel and only exclusively believe in the Western Progressive worldview.
Outside of Western Progressive worldview, Woke ideology is very real.
But you seem to be admitting you have no way to know this.
OMG, you are just engaging in circular nonsense right now. And you can't even see it.
An absolute failing of your Marquette education if you can't understand how illogical the above is.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:50:26 AM
"If Israel truly wants peace long-term, it has to treat Palestinians with more respect than they have shown. Don't violate agreements that you have made."
This a textbook example of Thomas Sowell's unconstrained worldview.
Well, and that's why he's wrong. Sowell is the right's answer to Friedman - award winning economists that should probably refrain from commenting much on other topics because they are generally nonsense.
But regardless, the problem with you in this entire topic is that you are engaging in simplistic, absolutist arguments. This isn't a battle to the death between two different worldviews. That is just black and white type thinking that, while it might give you comfort, is just not how the world works.
This is old-fashioned, Machiavellian realpolitik. And your failure to understand this is why you keep stumbling. As I have said previously, this is about Iran trying to break up a potential United States brokered alliance between Saudi Arabia and Israel - the three countries it sees as its greatest enemies. They are betting that Israel will overplay their hand in response which would make it impossible for an alliance with Saudi Arabia.
This is why Biden is preaching restraint. I'm sure he cares about the Palestinian people, but he also understands that there is more at stake here. He knows that an alliance between our two closest allies in the region to counter Iran is incredibly meaningful. (Especially since Turkey isn't terribly reliable recently.) Most people fully understand that Israel has a right to defend itself and to severely maim Hamas. However they aren't going to destroy Hamas - and Hamas isn't going to destroy Israel. Because the methods by which either would occur are not in the long-term strategic interests of anyone.
And then of course, this has to somehow reflect on American politics because....well of course it does. And this is also where you are wrong. This isn't some conflict between wokeism and non-wokeism, because that's not how the American people work either. The vast majority sit well in the middle of the bell curve, just like they always have.
I encourage you to think a little harder here. Try to understand the motivations of the people and countries involved. They aren't as absolutist as you think - they are rational actors engaging in practical decisions. Your failure to understand this will lead to your failure to really understand how the world works.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 02, 2023, 12:17:18 AM
Huh, I guess universities do take this seriously after all. BTW, what Dai allegedly posted was not protected speech so open season on him.
Cornell University cancels classes Friday amid 'extraordinary stress' on campus after violent antisemitic threats led to the arrest of a student
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/us/cornell-university-antisemitic-threats-thursday/index.html
Cornell University has canceled classes Friday to acknowledge the "extraordinary stress" its campus has been under as one of its students is accused of making violent antisemitic threats against Jewish people at the college, where unease over the Israel-Hamas war has been escalating for weeks.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 03:54:44 AM
Not really. "Woke ideology" is a completely made up thing. It's a straw man of extreme political views that few people actually share.
Yeah, I didn't think the opinion piece was particularly thought provoking or the words well chosen. He kind of undermines himself. Like this thread, we choose what the "sides" are then argue with others whose "sides" are slightly different. Then we sling insults. I disagree with his initial premise of what he defines as the sides. But, I read it anyway.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 02, 2023, 07:52:40 AM
Yeah, I didn't think the opinion piece was particularly thought provoking or the words well chosen. He kind of undermines himself. Like this thread, we choose what the "sides" are then argue with others whose "sides" are slightly different. Then we sling insults. I disagree with his initial premise of what he defines as the sides. But, I read it anyway.
Right because the truth almost always lies in the middle. But those make for boring OpEds.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 02, 2023, 06:59:23 AM
If that is your belief, that is your belief. In my experience, the police and FBI don't investigate things like this unless the complainant asks them to. And even then, most times they decline to investigate.
The FBI is investigating as a report of an assault was filed.
-----
https://freebeacon.com/campus/israeli-harvard-business-school-student-accosted-and-harassed-amid-gaza-die-in-on-campus/
A report has been filed with the Harvard University Police Department and the FBI's Boston office. "An Israeli student on his way to class pulled his phone out to film the rioters and he was attacked. He was assaulted both physically and verbally. Throughout the assault he kept calm, but was aggressively attacked by Pro-Palestine rioters,"
reads the report to the FBI, which was reviewed by the Free Beacon. "At least 2 of those involved have been identified as employees of the University and have not yet been dismissed from their posts."
The FBI declined to comment.
It is unclear how or whether Harvard plans to address the incident, which was reported to Harvard Business School administrators. Neither the executive director of Harvard's MBA program, Jana Kierstead, nor Harvard University president Claudine Gay responded to a request for comment.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 07:50:08 AM
Well, and that's why he's wrong. Sowell is the right's answer to Friedman - award winning economists that should probably refrain from commenting much on other topics because they are generally nonsense.
But regardless, the problem with you in this entire topic is that you are engaging in simplistic, absolutist arguments. This isn't a battle to the death between two different worldviews. That is just black and white type thinking that, while it might give you comfort, is just not how the world works.
This is old-fashioned, Machiavellian realpolitik. And your failure to understand this is why you keep stumbling. As I have said previously, this is about Iran trying to break up a potential United States brokered alliance between Saudi Arabia and Israel - the three countries it sees as its greatest enemies. They are betting that Israel will overplay their hand in response which would make it impossible for an alliance with Saudi Arabia.
This is why Biden is preaching restraint. I'm sure he cares about the Palestinian people, but he also understands that there is more at stake here. He knows that an alliance between our two closest allies in the region to counter Iran is incredibly meaningful. (Especially since Turkey isn't terribly reliable recently.) Most people fully understand that Israel has a right to defend itself and to severely maim Hamas. However they aren't going to destroy Hamas - and Hamas isn't going to destroy Israel. Because the methods by which either would occur are not in the long-term strategic interests of anyone.
And then of course, this has to somehow reflect on American politics because....well of course it does. And this is also where you are wrong. This isn't some conflict between wokeism and non-wokeism, because that's not how the American people work either. The vast majority sit well in the middle of the bell curve, just like they always have.
I encourage you to think a little harder here. Try to understand the motivations of the people and countries involved. They aren't as absolutist as you think - they are rational actors engaging in practical decisions. Your failure to understand this will lead to your failure to really understand how the world works.
Incredibly spot on.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 08:00:54 AM
The FBI is investigating as a report of an assault was filed.
-----
https://freebeacon.com/campus/israeli-harvard-business-school-student-accosted-and-harassed-amid-gaza-die-in-on-campus/
A report has been filed with the Harvard University Police Department and the FBI's Boston office. "An Israeli student on his way to class pulled his phone out to film the rioters and he was attacked. He was assaulted both physically and verbally. Throughout the assault he kept calm, but was aggressively attacked by Pro-Palestine rioters," reads the report to the FBI, which was reviewed by the Free Beacon. "At least 2 of those involved have been identified as employees of the University and have not yet been dismissed from their posts."
The FBI declined to comment.
It is unclear how or whether Harvard plans to address the incident, which was reported to Harvard Business School administrators. Neither the executive director of Harvard's MBA program, Jana Kierstead, nor Harvard University president Claudine Gay responded to a request for comment.
Antisemitism and Islamophobia are on the rise across the US, but you only seem concerned with one and not the other. Why is this?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 02, 2023, 08:10:39 AM
Antisemitism and Islamophobia are on the rise across the US, but you only seem concerned with one and not the other. Why is this?
All Muslims are terrorists, even the infants, so they deserve to die.
Duh.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:51:32 AM
Cornell University cancels classes Friday amid 'extraordinary stress' on campus after violent antisemitic threats led to the arrest of a student
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/us/cornell-university-antisemitic-threats-thursday/index.html
Cornell University has canceled classes Friday to acknowledge the "extraordinary stress" its campus has been under as one of its students is accused of making violent antisemitic threats against Jewish people at the college, where unease over the Israel-Hamas war has been escalating for weeks.
Huh, I guess universities do take this seriously after all.
D Canoe, I'll preface this by saying that you may be right the FBI is investigating, but I hope you realize that your statement here:
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 08:00:54 AM
The FBI is investigating as a report of an assault was filed.
Is not supported by the evidence you post here:
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 08:00:54 AM
https://freebeacon.com/campus/israeli-harvard-business-school-student-accosted-and-harassed-amid-gaza-die-in-on-campus/
A report has been filed with the Harvard University Police Department and the FBI's Boston office. "An Israeli student on his way to class pulled his phone out to film the rioters and he was attacked. He was assaulted both physically and verbally. Throughout the assault he kept calm, but was aggressively attacked by Pro-Palestine rioters," reads the report to the FBI, which was reviewed by the Free Beacon. "At least 2 of those involved have been identified as employees of the University and have not yet been dismissed from their posts."
The FBI declined to comment.
It is unclear how or whether Harvard plans to address the incident, which was reported to Harvard Business School administrators. Neither the executive director of Harvard's MBA program, Jana Kierstead, nor Harvard University president Claudine Gay responded to a request for comment.
This is a good example of why so many take exception with your posts. You write one thing and then post sources claiming they support you...when they actually don't. You make an inference or an assumption based on what the source says and then present is at fact. Combine that with using clearly biased sources, I mean "rioters"? Unless there's something not shown on the video, this was a bunch of students in a public square lying on the grass and other students holding cloths trying to herd people away from their protest. "Assaulted verbally"? What criminal statute does "assaulted verbally" fall under? "Attacked" and "physically assaulted" are more subjective and grabbing someone can technically be a physical assault, but the authors are clearly trying to paint the picture that the student was beaten or injured...when the video doesn't show that.
Weren't you the poster a few years back who was screaming at posters for saying the city of Houston was "destroyed" by Hurricane Harvey? IIRC, your argument was that words have meaning and people shouldn't try to sensationalize things.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 07:31:52 AM
OMG, you are just engaging in circular nonsense right now. And you can't even see it.
An absolute failing of your Marquette education if you can't understand how illogical the above is.
Well, that's just your Western Progressive worldview
TM talking.
Kidding ... well said.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2023, 09:35:33 AM
Incredibly stupid, hey?
Again, get out of the Quon. Learn something different. Listen to a new podcast on your morning walks. The world is a big, complicated and amazing place.
Lol, aina?
Woke pope loose
https://www.foxnews.com/world/pope-francis-two-state-solution-needed-israelis-palestinians.amp
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 03:54:44 AM
Not really. "Woke ideology" is a completely made up thing. It's a straw man of extreme political views that few people actually share.
In the article Douche Canoe posted, I actually don't think Sowell's explanation for for the foundations of political disagreement (as described in the article) is the problem. The problem is that Kisin misapplies that explanation like an absolute dipshit.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 02, 2023, 09:58:59 AM
In the article Douche Canoe posted, I actually don't think Sowell's explanation for for the foundations of political disagreement (as described in the article) is the problem. The problem is that Kisin misapplies that explanation like an absolute dipcrap.
Agreed. Ive actually liked some of what Kisin has written/stated in the past (for example his view on how to combat climate change), but he just uses the dumb woke angle as a crutch too often and its a tired schtick. As soon as I see it multiple times in an article or thinkpiece, I just groan, even if I would generally side with the point being made otherwise.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 02, 2023, 10:24:02 AM
Agreed. Ive actually liked some of what Kisin has written/stated in the past (for example his view on how to combat climate change), but he just uses the dumb woke angle as a crutch too often and its a tired schtick. As soon as I see it multiple times in an article or thinkpiece, I just groan, even if I would generally side with the point being made otherwise.
Wokism in regards to being used as an insult has gone from a critique of cynical shaming exercises (which can be an issue!) to basically getting mad that you can't say heinous crap about a group of people, religion, race etc without people rightfully calling you an a**hole.
Nm
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 02, 2023, 10:43:04 AM
Wokism in regards to being used as an insult has gone from a critique of cynical shaming exercises (which can be an issue!) to basically getting mad that you can't say heinous crap about a group of people, religion, race etc without people rightfully calling you an pretty boy.
And being mad about inclusivity
Quote from: JWags85 on November 02, 2023, 10:24:02 AM
Agreed. Ive actually liked some of what Kisin has written/stated in the past (for example his view on how to combat climate change), but he just uses the dumb woke angle as a crutch too often and its a tired schtick. As soon as I see it multiple times in an article or thinkpiece, I just groan, even if I would generally side with the point being made otherwise.
When you think about how Kisin employs the constrained and unconstrained vision for even two seconds, it is completely untenable. If you would have shown 15 year old, Catholic school educated me this:
QuoteThose with "unconstrained vision" think that humans are malleable and can be perfected. They believe that social ills and evils can be overcome through collective action that encourages humans to behave better. To subscribers of this view, poverty, crime, inequality, and war are not inevitable. Rather, they are puzzles that can be solved. We need only to say the right things, enact the right policies, and spend enough money, and we will suffer these social ills no more.
By contrast, those who see the world through a "constrained vision" lens believe that human nature is a universal constant. No amount of social engineering can change the sober reality of human self-interest, or the fact that human empathy and social resources are necessarily scarce. People who see things this way believe that most political and social problems will never be "solved"; they can only be managed.
and told me that in the year of our Lord 2023, those who subscribe to the unconstrained vision should be derided, I would have been utterly confused. Yet here we are, and all violence is supposedly proof of the naivite of anyone who believes the world can get better. What a horribly nihlist way to exist. Even if that was right (its not) - what is the point of anything? If we don't believe that human beings can overcome their base instincts in favor of social harmony with any meaningful regularity (again, ridiculous and not reflected in a cursory comparison of the world today vs [insert any length of time ago here]) we might as well just nuke everyone with whom we disagree into oblivion. Because under this interpretation, they will never learn and never get better. They are just controlled by their base, violent instincts, and its up to all the responsible conservatives to constrain them from escaping contain and wreaking the violent human nature on the world.
Applying this trash to the Israeli-Gaza conflict, Kisin says
QuoteThe events of the last two weeks have shattered the illusion that wokeness [ed note - wokism inserted here to be synonous with the unoconstrained vision] is about protecting victims and standing up for persecuted minorities. This ideology is and has always been about the one thing many of us have told you it is about for years: power. And after the last two weeks, there can be no doubt about how these people will use any power they seize: they will seek to destroy, in any way they can, those who disagree. This unpleasant conclusion is surprising only if you are still clinging to the unconstrained vision. But if there is any constant in human history, it is that revolutionaries always feel entitled to destroy those who stand in their way.
IOW "If you think that human society can better itself in a way that reduces violence and suppresses violent instincts then your actual goal is to seize power to destroy those who disagree with you." First, this begs the question and is circular - if you preach nonviolence, you're the most violent of all. Second, he evidently didn't do the reading and is unfamiliar with the works of Hobbes. Last, if you carry this through, we might as well eliminate all adherents to any culture we perceive to have an inclination for violence - because they'll never learn. What is the point of "managing" (his word) people who will never learn to "overcome social ills through collective action that encourages humans to behave better"? The whole dichotomy is dependent on people never being able to rise above basic human instincts, and our political responsibility is just to identify who those people are. To that end, his use of "revolutionaries" in place of Hamas is meant to broaden the definition of what we should see as the ideological blight, and is both dangerous and philosophically lazy as hell.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 09:48:35 AM
Woke pope loose
https://www.foxnews.com/world/pope-francis-two-state-solution-needed-israelis-palestinians.amp
He's not as woke as Jesus was, but pretty close. Those two, with their woke agenda, ruining the world.
Quote from: MU82 on November 02, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
He's not as woke as Jesus was, but pretty close. Those two, with their woke agenda, ruining the world.
Going to need to introduce Vatican City to darkness if they keep imposing their western progressive policies on the Middle East
Might become the 6th point. Which would make it a Star of David. Which would prove everyone is antisemitic
What's up my fellow wokeys? How's it going enriching Black Lives Matter LLC today? Want to go march to free Palestine but not purpose any solutions to their terrorist state government together? Catch you on the public transportation!
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 02, 2023, 03:24:02 PM
What's up my fellow wokeys? How's it going enriching Black Lives Matter LLC today? Want to go march to free Palestine but not purpose any solutions to their terrorist state government together? Catch you on the public transportation!
After I get done watching the game on ESPN, I have to buy my daughter some Disney stuff at Target but I'll also be able to get a 12-pack of Bud Light, too
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 03:29:40 PM
After I get done watching the game on ESPN, I have to buy my daughter some Disney stuff at Target but I'll also be able to get a 12-pack of Bud Light, too
Don't forget the litter box for her to take to school.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 03:33:11 PM
Don't forget the litter box for her to take to school.
I had to help her with her CRT homework last night and make sure she read the chapter due this week from the Communist Manifesto
Tomorrow is a bake sale for Palestinian refugees
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 02, 2023, 03:24:02 PM
What's up my fellow wokeys? How's it going enriching Black Lives Matter LLC today? Want to go march to free Palestine but not purpose any solutions to their terrorist state government together? Catch you on the public transportation!
As long as I'm home in time to read my kids Ibram Kendi at bedtime.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 02, 2023, 03:40:31 PM
As long as I'm home in time to read my kids Ibram Kendi at bedtime.
I can't believe you guys are already through Das Kapital, The Communist Manifesto, and The State and Revolution.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 02, 2023, 03:50:06 PM
I can't believe you guys are already through Das Kapital, The Communist Manifesto, and The State and Revolution.
Being woke means never resting until everyone is in same-sex marriages and speak multiple languages
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 02, 2023, 03:50:06 PM
I can't believe you guys are already through Das Kapital, The Communist Manifesto, and The State and Revolution.
My pronouns are Free and Palestine. Have we decided which campus conservative organization we are going to cancel and stifle free speech for in November yet?
Can't believe Israel hasn't deployed the Jewish space lasers yet. With quality Intel, I would think those could end this conflict.
Quote from: tower912 on November 02, 2023, 03:58:50 PM
Can't believe Israel hasn't deployed the Jewish space lasers yet. With quality Intel, I would think those could end this conflict.
Our militaries have gone woke, remember? That and sharia law in the US
Quote from: tower912 on November 02, 2023, 03:58:50 PM
Can't believe Israel hasn't deployed the Jewish space lasers yet. With quality Intel, I would think those could end this conflict.
That's why the Georgia buffoon won't sponsor legislation to support Israel.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 02, 2023, 03:50:06 PM
I can't believe you guys are already through Das Kapital, The Communist Manifesto, and The State and Revolution.
I'm deciding between Alinsky and Chomsky for what's up next.
I am going to read the beatitudes.
Quote from: tower912 on November 02, 2023, 04:19:55 PM
I am going to read the beatitudes.
Now that's some radical stuff.
Prosperity Theology is where it's at.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 02, 2023, 04:27:54 PM
Now that's some radical stuff.
Prosperity Theology is where it's at.
Between those and loving my neighbor as myself, I am doing full woke immersion.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 09:38:11 AM
Again, get out of the Quon. Learn something different. Listen to a new podcast on your morning walks. The world is a big, complicated and amazing place.
come on doc. spend a night protesting with the blm/defund the po lice. go share a couple of grape dranks with them and find out where's the money?? ibram kendi has got to have a few podcasts on how to swindle $30 million while using the racist force field to get away with it. that blm stuff is some lucrative biness-thars gold in them thar hills baby
speaking of blm, haven't seen our resident hamas sympathizer 'round these parts, eyn'a?
You should look at your tag line before posting.
Quote from: tower912 on November 02, 2023, 04:38:52 PM
You should look at your tag line before posting.
Would love to be a fly on the wall of any dental interactions with POC (if any ever) in this man's practice. The body language has to be fascinating.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 02, 2023, 04:35:31 PM
come on doc. spend a night protesting with the blm/defund the po lice. go share a couple of grape dranks with them and find out where's the money?? ibram kendi has got to have a few podcasts on how to swindle $30 million while using the racist force field to get away with it. that blm stuff is some lucrative biness-thars gold in them thar hills baby
speaking of blm, haven't seen our resident hamas sympathizer 'round these parts, eyn'a?
?(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/C_K2H5ubLMHf.0_mCUh.Ug--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTg1Nw--/https://media.zenfs.com/en-US/best_life_342/68907505d3970059461eef44aacac91f)
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 02, 2023, 04:35:31 PM
come on doc. spend a night protesting with the blm/defund the po lice. go share a couple of grape dranks with them and find out where's the money?? ibram kendi has got to have a few podcasts on how to swindle $30 million while using the racist force field to get away with it. that blm stuff is some lucrative biness-thars gold in them thar hills baby
speaking of blm, haven't seen our resident hamas sympathizer 'round these parts, eyn'a?
9 out of 10
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 02, 2023, 08:49:27 AM
D Canoe, I'll preface this by saying that you may be right the FBI is investigating, but I hope you realize that your statement here:
Is not supported by the evidence you post here:
This is a good example of why so many take exception with your posts. You write one thing and then post sources claiming they support you...when they actually don't. You make an inference or an assumption based on what the source says and then present is at fact. Combine that with using clearly biased sources, I mean "rioters"? Unless there's something not shown on the video, this was a bunch of students in a public square lying on the grass and other students holding cloths trying to herd people away from their protest. "Assaulted verbally"? What criminal statute does "assaulted verbally" fall under? "Attacked" and "physically assaulted" are more subjective and grabbing someone can technically be a physical assault, but the authors are clearly trying to paint the picture that the student was beaten or injured...when the video doesn't show that.
Weren't you the poster a few years back who was screaming at posters for saying the city of Houston was "destroyed" by Hurricane Harvey? IIRC, your argument was that words have meaning and people shouldn't try to sensationalize things.
Did you not read this part?
Throughout the assault he kept calm, but was aggressively attacked by Pro-Palestine rioters," reads the report to the FBI, which was reviewed by the Free Beacon. "That is the word used in the FBI report. Was it physical? Again, the FBI used the term "aggressively attacked" in their report.
Until the FBI offers clarification, I'll stay with this characterization.
You can also offer your expert analysis of the video, but my expert analysis makes it look straightforward: the Jewish student was physically assaulted.
I might add that Harvard Alums are now calling for disciplinary action.
https://nypost.com/2023/11/02/business/bill-ackman-demands-suspension-of-harvard-law-review-editor-who-accosted-jewish-student/
Apparently, there is a lot more of this than is being reported.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-02/harvard-yale-warned-by-top-law-firms-about-campus-antisemitism
The letter was written this week by Joseph C. Shenker, senior chair of Sullivan & Cromwell,
after he was contacted by Jewish law students from top universities. He circulated the draft to the other firms, each of which sent a copy to the law schools they work with on Wednesday night, Shenker said in an interview.
When asked if the firms would curtail recruiting from schools where they have seen concerning behavior, Shenker said, "People can draw their own conclusions. The letter speaks for itself."
"We're asking the deans to create a safe environment for all their students where one is treated with respect," he said. "That's what we require at our firms. I believe the deans are working towards that."
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 02, 2023, 08:10:39 AM
Antisemitism and Islamophobia are on the rise across the US, but you only seem concerned with one and not the other. Why is this?
Simple, one dominates the other ... and it is not even close.
FBI Director Chris Wray yesterday.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4286146-fbi-director-warns-of-historic-antisemitism-levels/
FBI Director Christopher Wray said
the U.S. is seeing "historic" levels of antisemitism, with actions targeting the Jewish community after the Hamas-Israel war adding to a threat level for Jews that has spiked in recent years.
"The reality is that the Jewish community is uniquely targeted by pretty much every terrorist organization across the spectrum. And when you look at a
group that makes up 2.4 percent, roughly, of the American population, it should be jarring to everyone that that same population accounts for something like 60 percent of all religious-based hate crimes, and so they need our help," Wray said.So what did the administration announce less than 24 hours after this?
https://twitter.com/VP/status/1719833418869981388
Vice President Kamala Harris @VP
Taking on hate is a national priority.
Today, @POTUS and I are announcing the country's first National Strategy to Counter Islamophobia.
This action is the latest step forward in our work to combat a surge of hate in America.Let's not fool ourselves as to how they are looking at a historic rise in antisemitism and then form an Islamophobia strategy ...
It's about politics ....
In Michigan, Muslim and Arab American Voters Reconsider Support for Biden
Many in the swing state say they feel betrayed by the president's support for Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/michigan-democrats-biden-palestinian.html
Mr. Biden won the state by nearly 155,000 votes. Muslim voters turned out in significant numbers — 145,000 voted in the presidential election, according to Emgage. An exit poll commissioned by the Council on American-Islamic Relations found that roughly 69 percent of Muslims nationwide voted for Biden.
Ms. Al-Hanooti said Muslims turned out in large numbers for Mr. Biden mainly because they were motivated to help defeat President Trump. As a candidate for president, Mr. Trump called for a shutdown of Muslim immigration and referred to "radical Islam" infiltrating American communities; while in office, he issued an executive order that imposed restrictions on refugees and visitors from seven predominantly Muslim countries.
------
He sums it up nicely ...
https://twitter.com/EpsilonTheory/status/1719926469445443898
@EpsilonTheory
Man, those internal Michigan polls must be brutal.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 05:53:44 PM
Simple, one dominates the other ... and it is not even close.
FBI Director Chris Wray yesterday.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4286146-fbi-director-warns-of-historic-antisemitism-levels/
FBI Director Christopher Wray said the U.S. is seeing "historic" levels of antisemitism, with actions targeting the Jewish community after the Hamas-Israel war adding to a threat level for Jews that has spiked in recent years.
"The reality is that the Jewish community is uniquely targeted by pretty much every terrorist organization across the spectrum. And when you look at a group that makes up 2.4 percent, roughly, of the American population, it should be jarring to everyone that that same population accounts for something like 60 percent of all religious-based hate crimes, and so they need our help," Wray said.
So what did the administration announce less than 24 hours after this?
https://twitter.com/VP/status/1719833418869981388
Vice President Kamala Harris @VP
Taking on hate is a national priority.
Today, @POTUS and I are announcing the country's first National Strategy to Counter Islamophobia.
This action is the latest step forward in our work to combat a surge of hate in America.
Let's not fool ourselves as to how they are looking at a historic rise in antisemitism and then form an Islamophobia strategy ...
It's about politics ....
In Michigan, Muslim and Arab American Voters Reconsider Support for Biden
Many in the swing state say they feel betrayed by the president's support for Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/michigan-democrats-biden-palestinian.html
Mr. Biden won the state by nearly 155,000 votes. Muslim voters turned out in significant numbers — 145,000 voted in the presidential election, according to Emgage. An exit poll commissioned by the Council on American-Islamic Relations found that roughly 69 percent of Muslims nationwide voted for Biden.
Ms. Al-Hanooti said Muslims turned out in large numbers for Mr. Biden mainly because they were motivated to help defeat President Trump. As a candidate for president, Mr. Trump called for a shutdown of Muslim immigration and referred to "radical Islam" infiltrating American communities; while in office, he issued an executive order that imposed restrictions on refugees and visitors from seven predominantly Muslim countries.
------
He sums it up nicely ...
https://twitter.com/EpsilonTheory/status/1719926469445443898
@EpsilonTheory
Man, those internal Michigan polls must be brutal.
So, they're not supposed to denounce Islamophobia?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 05:53:44 PM
So what did the administration announce less than 24 hours after this?
https://twitter.com/VP/status/1719833418869981388
Vice President Kamala Harris @VP
Taking on hate is a national priority.
Today, @POTUS and I are announcing the country's first National Strategy to Counter Islamophobia.
This action is the latest step forward in our work to combat a surge of hate in America.
Let's not fool ourselves as to how they are looking at a historic rise in antisemitism and then form an Islamophobia strategy ...
It's about politics ....
In Michigan, Muslim and Arab American Voters Reconsider Support for Biden
Many in the swing state say they feel betrayed by the president's support for Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/michigan-democrats-biden-palestinian.html
Mr. Biden won the state by nearly 155,000 votes. Muslim voters turned out in significant numbers — 145,000 voted in the presidential election, according to Emgage. An exit poll commissioned by the Council on American-Islamic Relations found that roughly 69 percent of Muslims nationwide voted for Biden.
Ms. Al-Hanooti said Muslims turned out in large numbers for Mr. Biden mainly because they were motivated to help defeat President Trump. As a candidate for president, Mr. Trump called for a shutdown of Muslim immigration and referred to "radical Islam" infiltrating American communities; while in office, he issued an executive order that imposed restrictions on refugees and visitors from seven predominantly Muslim countries.
------
He sums it up nicely ...
https://twitter.com/EpsilonTheory/status/1719926469445443898
@EpsilonTheory
Man, those internal Michigan polls must be brutal.
It's like you're not even trying. Either that or intentionally deceptive.
And as usual, the people you follow - I mean, show up in your feed - on Twitter are morons.
From May 2023
The Biden administration has released the country's first national strategy for combating antisemitism, a landmark plan aimed at addressing a growing problem.
The strategy outlines over 100 steps that federal agencies have committed to completing within a year, and more than 100 specific calls to action aimed at Congress, civil society, state and local governments, academic institutions, businesses and religious communities.
Jewish groups lauded the strategy, for the commitment it signifies, the actions it outlines and even its specific wording.
"It's particularly notable that this approach recognizes that antisemitism is not about politics — it's about principles," ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement. "We are pleased that this strategy comprehensively addresses hate and antisemitism on campus, online, and from extremists on both the far-right and the far-left."https://www.npr.org/2023/05/25/1178188513/biden-antisemitism-strategy
Quote from: Pakuni on November 02, 2023, 06:00:22 PM
It's like you're not even trying. Either that or intentionally deceptive.
And as usual, the people you follow - I mean, show up in your feed - on Twitter are morons.
From May 2023
The Biden administration has released the country's first national strategy for combating antisemitism, a landmark plan aimed at addressing a growing problem.
The strategy outlines over 100 steps that federal agencies have committed to completing within a year, and more than 100 specific calls to action aimed at Congress, civil society, state and local governments, academic institutions, businesses and religious communities.
Jewish groups lauded the strategy, for the commitment it signifies, the actions it outlines and even its specific wording.
"It's particularly notable that this approach recognizes that antisemitism is not about politics — it's about principles," ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement. "We are pleased that this strategy comprehensively addresses hate and antisemitism on campus, online, and from extremists on both the far-right and the far-left."
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/25/1178188513/biden-antisemitism-strategy
Is his national strategy for antisemitism working,?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 02, 2023, 06:08:51 PM
Is his national strategy for antisemitism working,?
No, but they haven't gotten to point 5 yet ... kill everyone.
But seriously, don't be so obtuse.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 02, 2023, 06:08:51 PM
Is his national strategy for antisemitism working,?
Well, it does include having congress act on it, so no.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 03:38:04 PM
I had to help her with her CRT homework last night and make sure she read the chapter due this week from the Communist Manifesto
Tomorrow is a bake sale for Palestinian refugees
Hope she showers wit a pseudo-dude after gym class too, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2023, 06:13:10 PM
Hope she showers wit a pseudo-dude after gym class too, hey?
That happens at a lot of high schools now, including hers. In fact, it's part of the woke agenda curriculum
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 05:53:44 PM
Simple, one dominates the other ... and it is not even close.
FBI Director Chris Wray yesterday.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4286146-fbi-director-warns-of-historic-antisemitism-levels/
FBI Director Christopher Wray said the U.S. is seeing "historic" levels of antisemitism, with actions targeting the Jewish community after the Hamas-Israel war adding to a threat level for Jews that has spiked in recent years.
"The reality is that the Jewish community is uniquely targeted by pretty much every terrorist organization across the spectrum. And when you look at a group that makes up 2.4 percent, roughly, of the American population, it should be jarring to everyone that that same population accounts for something like 60 percent of all religious-based hate crimes, and so they need our help," Wray said.
So what did the administration announce less than 24 hours after this?
https://twitter.com/VP/status/1719833418869981388
Vice President Kamala Harris @VP
Taking on hate is a national priority.
Today, @POTUS and I are announcing the country's first National Strategy to Counter Islamophobia.
This action is the latest step forward in our work to combat a surge of hate in America.
Let's not fool ourselves as to how they are looking at a historic rise in antisemitism and then form an Islamophobia strategy ...
It's about politics ....
In Michigan, Muslim and Arab American Voters Reconsider Support for Biden
Many in the swing state say they feel betrayed by the president's support for Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/michigan-democrats-biden-palestinian.html
Mr. Biden won the state by nearly 155,000 votes. Muslim voters turned out in significant numbers — 145,000 voted in the presidential election, according to Emgage. An exit poll commissioned by the Council on American-Islamic Relations found that roughly 69 percent of Muslims nationwide voted for Biden.
Ms. Al-Hanooti said Muslims turned out in large numbers for Mr. Biden mainly because they were motivated to help defeat President Trump. As a candidate for president, Mr. Trump called for a shutdown of Muslim immigration and referred to "radical Islam" infiltrating American communities; while in office, he issued an executive order that imposed restrictions on refugees and visitors from seven predominantly Muslim countries.
------
He sums it up nicely ...
https://twitter.com/EpsilonTheory/status/1719926469445443898
@EpsilonTheory
Man, those internal Michigan polls must be brutal.
Heisy,
We need Israel to take care of business so to speak. Asking them to "pause" is absurd/laughable. It's analogous for someone telling me to stop being diminutive. Hezbollah has already attacked them from the North and we have done essentially nothing to thwart Iranian aggression towards US airbases and now the State of Israel. I believe in introducing ALL of their proxies to darkness and the sooner the better. "Don't" is not a strategy. I'm sorry the Jewish people have to deal with this garbage.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2023, 06:13:10 PM
Hope she showers wit a pseudo-dude after gym class too, hey?
Nobody here posts about male genitalia more often than Doc.
I'm sure it means nothing.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 07:50:08 AM
Well, and that's why he's wrong. Sowell is the right's answer to Friedman - award winning economists that should probably refrain from commenting much on other topics because they are generally nonsense.
But regardless, the problem with you in this entire topic is that you are engaging in simplistic, absolutist arguments. This isn't a battle to the death between two different worldviews. That is just black and white type thinking that, while it might give you comfort, is just not how the world works.
This is old-fashioned, Machiavellian realpolitik. And your failure to understand this is why you keep stumbling. As I have said previously, this is about Iran trying to break up a potential United States brokered alliance between Saudi Arabia and Israel - the three countries it sees as its greatest enemies. They are betting that Israel will overplay their hand in response which would make it impossible for an alliance with Saudi Arabia.
This is why Biden is preaching restraint. I'm sure he cares about the Palestinian people, but he also understands that there is more at stake here. He knows that an alliance between our two closest allies in the region to counter Iran is incredibly meaningful. (Especially since Turkey isn't terribly reliable recently.) Most people fully understand that Israel has a right to defend itself and to severely maim Hamas. However they aren't going to destroy Hamas - and Hamas isn't going to destroy Israel. Because the methods by which either would occur are not in the long-term strategic interests of anyone.
And then of course, this has to somehow reflect on American politics because....well of course it does. And this is also where you are wrong. This isn't some conflict between wokeism and non-wokeism, because that's not how the American people work either. The vast majority sit well in the middle of the bell curve, just like they always have.
I encourage you to think a little harder here. Try to understand the motivations of the people and countries involved. They aren't as absolutist as you think - they are rational actors engaging in practical decisions. Your failure to understand this will lead to your failure to really understand how the world works.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 02, 2023, 08:09:17 AM
Incredibly spot on.
You just cannot help yourself ... the Western Progressive Worldview within you has put permanent blinders on that make you incapable of any other viewpoint. And you are convinced there is only one worldview, the correct one, the one you hold, the one you detail above.
And again, you stick with this line, maybe the third or fourth time you said this.
This isn't a battle to the death between two different worldviews. That is just black and white type thinking that, while it might give you comfort, is just not how the world works.
This is old-fashioned, Machiavellian realpolitik.Hamas does view it that way. They see it pretty black and white.
More from Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad's interview on Lebanese TV last week, as translated by Lebanese TV
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified
"Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country, because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished. We are not ashamed to say this, with full force.
"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight.
Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs."The occupation must come to an end."
News anchor: "Occupation where? In the Gaza Strip?"
Hamad: "No, I am talking about all the Palestinian lands."
"The existence of Israel is illogical. The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood, and tears. It is Israel, not us. We are the victims of the occupation. Period. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October 1,000,000 – everything we do is justified."
-----------
What you cannot accept is they (Hamas and many Palestinians) have a completely different worldview. One of death, violence, and oppression. One that wants to genocide 8 million Jews in Israel.
No, this has to be wrong. No one rationally thinks this way. They had to have been driven to this by evil perpetrated upon them, right? So, Israel bears responsibility. Then you find something Israel did wrong (hint: everyone does wrong things) and then say it is Israel's fault.
This is the crux of the issue. Hamad is telling you it. You just cannot, and will not, hear it!
So you use sophisticated words like "complicated," "nuisance," and now "realpolitik." You then dissemble until you make yourself and mini-me above feel better that Hamas and Palestinians are really friendly, gentle people who agree with your worldview. It is all about Isreal.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 02, 2023, 06:00:22 PM
It's like you're not even trying. Either that or intentionally deceptive.
And as usual, the people you follow - I mean, show up in your feed - on Twitter are morons.
From May 2023
The Biden administration has released the country's first national strategy for combating antisemitism, a landmark plan aimed at addressing a growing problem.
The strategy outlines over 100 steps that federal agencies have committed to completing within a year, and more than 100 specific calls to action aimed at Congress, civil society, state and local governments, academic institutions, businesses and religious communities.
Jewish groups lauded the strategy, for the commitment it signifies, the actions it outlines and even its specific wording.
"It's particularly notable that this approach recognizes that antisemitism is not about politics — it's about principles," ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement. "We are pleased that this strategy comprehensively addresses hate and antisemitism on campus, online, and from extremists on both the far-right and the far-left."
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/25/1178188513/biden-antisemitism-strategy
And how is this working out?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 05:57:43 PM
So, they're not supposed to denounce Islamophobia?
Wait ... did you just give me a version of "All Lives Matter?"
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:25:33 PM
Wait ... did you just give me a version of "All Lives Matter?"
No, the administration represents all Americans. It is their duty to serve all Americans, regardless of religion. So, if Islamophobia is rising, they should speak out against it. It's not complicated.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:23:22 PM
And how is this working out?
You can just admit you were wrong.
Wall Street titans help to fuel Ivy League donor revolt
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/02/wall-street-titans-help-to-fuel-ivy-league-donor-revolt-.html
At least 400 Penn alumni and donors joined a recent call hosted by former class presidents and several speakers said they were frustrated with the university's current leadership, according to a person familiar. Rowan was one of the final speakers on the call, where he raised his own issues about the school, this person explained.
Beyond the calls with donors and alumni, Rowan and other finance executives critical of the universities have been in contact through text messages about their concerns with the schools. One of the people on these text message chains with Rowan is Bill Ackman, CEO of hedge fund Pershing Square, according to a person briefed on the matter.
The individuals were granted anonymity in order to speak freely about private conversations.
I heard a brief interview earlier today from two Jewish students, one at NYU and the other at Barnard/Columbia. They rightly criticized how both of these esteemed Universities are handling the ignominious hate hurled towards them. They are hearing "Gas the Jews" and other horrofic chants every freaking day. There are professors there essentially defending what happened on Oct. 7th. This is an absolute disgrace and all of us should be far, far, more supportive of our Jewish citizens.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 02, 2023, 06:30:46 PM
You can just admit you were wrong.
You mean, why don't I just accept your worldview, the only one that is right?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:33:11 PM
You mean, why don't I just accept your worldview, the only one that is right?
Huh
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 02, 2023, 06:31:56 PM
I heard a brief interview earlier today from two Jewish students, one at NYU and the other at Barnard/Columbia. They rightly criticized how both of these esteemed Universities are handling the ignominious hate hurled towards them. They are hearing "Gas the Jews" and other horrofic chants every freaking day. There are professors there essentially defending what happened on Oct. 7th. This is an absolute disgrace and all of us should be far, far, more supportive of our Jewish citizens.
Pretty much everyone here (I won't speak in totality because, who knows) agrees this is hate speech and completely in support of fighting anti Semitism. What many here have pointed out, is supporting one group of people does not mean you need to aggressively marginalize another.
Nah Muggs, this is the way it started in Nazi Germany. History repeats itself and once again antisemitism rears its ugly head. Actually, it never goes away, hey?
Not all Western Progressives accept the only accepted worldview.
Why Israel must fight on
Israel's bombardment of Gaza is taking a terrible toll. But unless Hamas's power is broken, peace will remain out of reach
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/11/02/why-israel-must-fight-on
The only way out of the cycle of violence is to destroy Hamas's rule—which means killing its senior leaders and smashing its military infrastructure. The suggestion that a war which entails the deaths of thousands of innocent people can lead to peace will appal many. In the past one act of violence has led to the next. That is indeed the great risk today.
However, while Hamas runs Gaza, peace is impossible. Israelis will feel unsafe, so their government will strike Gaza pre-emptively every time Hamas threatens. Suffocated by permanently tight Israeli security and killed as Hamas's human shields in pre-emptive Israeli raids, Palestinians will be radicalised. The only way forward is to weaken its control while building the conditions for something new to emerge.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 02, 2023, 06:36:25 PM
Pretty much everyone here (I won't speak in totality because, who knows) agrees this is hate speech and completely in support of fighting anti Semitism. What many here have pointed out, is supporting one group of people does not mean you need to aggressively marginalize another.
Nah, its okay to hate Jews, aina?
House Republicans pushed through an aide package to Israel that has no chance of passing the Senate; they stripped out aide to Ukraine and struck down already-improved funding for the IRS to chase down rich tax cheats.
It's DOA and they know it, just a political ploy. Even many of their fellow Republicans, especially in the Senate, are decrying it.
They aren't serious people.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:33:11 PM
You mean, why don't I just accept your worldview, the only one that is right?
No, I mean you obviously came here to claim the Biden administration is ignoring antisemitism and instead focusing on Islamophobia to win votes in Michigan.
Alas, you were too lazy to do your research and see that the Biden administration nearly six months ago launched the nation's first and only strategy for combating antisemitism, a plan that's earned praise from the Jewish community.
That's not my worldview. That's not an opinion. Those are facts. Which you consistently get wrong
Unfortunately for you, your world view is "facts no matta."
Quote from: MU82 on November 02, 2023, 06:42:05 PM
House Republicans pushed through an aide package to Israel that has no chance of passing the Senate; they stripped out aide to Ukraine and struck down already-improved funding for the IRS to chase down rich tax cheats.
It's DOA and they know it, just a political ploy. Even many of their fellow Republicans, especially in the Senate, are decrying it.
They aren't serious people.
Wonder if the rich donors fighting the Ivies will weigh in on this over their concern with supporting Israel? Have to think so
Muggsy
I have stayed out of this thread for 88 pages and want you to know I agree with much of your sentiment. I am outraged with what happened in 10/7, support Israel 100% and am disgusted by the antisemitism in the world.
I appreciate your passion and your concern for Israel and the Jewish Community. This is beyond a serious global situation and I believe many on here are misguided.
Keep up the fight, I am pro- Muggsy!!
Meanwhile, from the WSJ ...
The Russian paramilitary group Wagner plans to provide an air-defense system to Hezbollah, U.S. officials say, citing intelligence.
This comes amid broader concerns that Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed Lebanese militia, may open up a northern front against Israel, which is fighting Hamas in Gaza. The Russian Embassy didn't respond to a request for comment. A spokesman for the White House's National Security Council declined to comment. The U.S. has positioned an aircraft carrier in the Eastern Mediterranean to try to deter Hezbollah and Iran.
That's OK. Putin's not that bad. Very strong. Very smart, just like Hezbollah. He's such a swell guy that the world should just give him Ukraine.
Muggsy for President, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on November 02, 2023, 06:49:53 PM
Meanwhile, from the WSJ ...
The Russian paramilitary group Wagner plans to provide an air-defense system to Hezbollah, U.S. officials say, citing intelligence.
This comes amid broader concerns that Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed Lebanese militia, may open up a northern front against Israel, which is fighting Hamas in Gaza. The Russian Embassy didn't respond to a request for comment. A spokesman for the White House's National Security Council declined to comment. The U.S. has positioned an aircraft carrier in the Eastern Mediterranean to try to deter Hezbollah and Iran.
That's OK. Putin's not that bad. Very strong. Very smart, just like Hezbollah. He's such a swell guy that the world should just give him Ukraine.
Interesting the amount of time spent fighting culture wars in the thread on the war Israel is fighting. The current administration is fully supporting Israeli response while congress plays political games delaying financial support.
Now, it might just be me, the anti-semite, that thinks delaying the funding while playing political games is a problem if you support Israel.
Can two things be true? Gasp. Maybe. Antisemitism is on the rise and it's disgusting. It's also a sad state of affairs when congress plays political games with someone they claim is our most important ally.
Now back to the culture wars in this thread
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2023, 06:38:17 PM
Nah, its okay to hate Jews, aina?
By your apparent definition of what Jews worldwide should and shouldn't support, I'm sure you believe that wholeheartedly
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 07:04:30 PM
Interesting the amount of time spent fighting culture wars in the thread on the war Israel is fighting. The current administration is fully supporting Israeli response while congress plays political games delaying financial support.
Now, it might just be me, the anti-semite, that thinks delaying the funding while playing political games is a problem if you support Israel.
Can two things be true? Gasp. Maybe. Antisemitism is on the rise and it's disgusting. It's also a sad state of affairs when congress plays political games with someone they claim is our most important ally.
Now back to the culture wars in this thread
I thought government handouts were woke
Quote from: MU82 on November 02, 2023, 06:42:05 PM
House Republicans pushed through an aide package to Israel that has no chance of passing the Senate; they stripped out aide to Ukraine and struck down already-improved funding for the IRS to chase down rich tax cheats.
It's DOA and they know it, just a political ploy. Even many of their fellow Republicans, especially in the Senate, are decrying it.
They aren't serious people.
Why is the House wrong? Why isn't the Senate wrong?
They can pass Israeli aid now and take up those other issues separately.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 02, 2023, 07:06:56 PM
I thought government handouts were woke
In seriousness, if you support Israel and want Hamas and Hezbollah defeated, you'd be calling your congressperson and tell them to quit playing games.
Hezbollah is BEING SUPPORTED BY RUSSIA AND FUNDING THE UKRAINE FIGHT ALSO SUPPORTS ISRAEL by making the enemies of Israel focus more energy on the fiasco of the Russian invasion into Ukraine.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:10:20 PM
Why is the House wrong? Why isn't the Senate wrong?
They can pass Israeli aid now and take up those other issues separately.
Then the house should have passed an Israeli aid bill by itself. They didn't
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 07:13:49 PM
In seriousness, if you support Israel and want Hamas and Hezbollah defeated, you'd be calling your congressperson and tell them to quit playing games.
Hezbollah is BEING SUPPORTED BY RUSSIA AND FUNDING THE UKRAINE FIGHT ALSO SUPPORTS ISRAEL by making the enemies of Israel focus more energy on the fiasco of the Russian invasion into Ukraine.
Which congressman should you call? Senators to pass the House bill?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 07:18:15 PM
Then the house should have passed an Israeli aid bill by itself. They didn't
That is precisely what they did.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-passes-republicans-israel-aid-bill-faces-dead-end-senate-2023-11-02/
The democrats know Israel's aid is popular and want to tie all their other less popular wishes to it.
So, who is playing politics here?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:17:55 PM
You just cannot help yourself ... the Western Progressive Worldview within you has put permanent blinders on that make you incapable of any other viewpoint. And you are convinced there is only one worldview, the correct one, the one you hold, the one you detail above.
Sorry. My view isn't a "progressive worldview." My view is grounded in the actualities of the situation. Yours is one governed by absolutes and emotions. IOW, you aren't thinking...you're reacting.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 06:37:03 PM
Not all Western Progressives accept the only accepted worldview.
Why Israel must fight on
Israel's bombardment of Gaza is taking a terrible toll. But unless Hamas's power is broken, peace will remain out of reach
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/11/02/why-israel-must-fight-on
The only way out of the cycle of violence is to destroy Hamas's rule—which means killing its senior leaders and smashing its military infrastructure. The suggestion that a war which entails the deaths of thousands of innocent people can lead to peace will appal many. In the past one act of violence has led to the next. That is indeed the great risk today.
However, while Hamas runs Gaza, peace is impossible. Israelis will feel unsafe, so their government will strike Gaza pre-emptively every time Hamas threatens. Suffocated by permanently tight Israeli security and killed as Hamas's human shields in pre-emptive Israeli raids, Palestinians will be radicalised. The only way forward is to weaken its control while building the conditions for something new to emerge.
Violence will not end the cycle of violence.
There are two solutions to stemming the cycle of violence.
1. The UN needs to finally pass a formal binding resolution establishing a 2-state solution (that means no vetoes by the US.
2. People need to quit using charged language attacking each other, and instead maybe listen and try to understand each other.
As an example. If you and/or Muggsy will humor me.
Define what:
"From the River to the Sea" means.
Similarly, what does Zionism/Zionist and the related terms anti-Zionism mean.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:22:40 PM
Which congressman should you call? Senators to pass the House bill?
Call your congressperson or senator to quit playing games with aid for Israel.
Congress chose to cut aid to Ukraine and tie the IRS to this bill they knew doesn't stand a chance to pass or have senate support. On top of it, the fiscal conservatives just added even more to the deficit with this stunt
Aid to Ukraine supports the effort in their war against one of Israel's enemies biggest weapons providers
Quote from: Goose on November 02, 2023, 06:48:52 PM
Muggsy
I have stayed out of this thread for 88 pages and want you to know I agree with much of your sentiment. I am outraged with what happened in 10/7, support Israel 100% and am disgusted by the antisemitism in the world.
I appreciate your passion and your concern for Israel and the Jewish Community. This is beyond a serious global situation and I believe many on here are misguided.
Keep up the fight, I am pro- Muggsy!!
You realize that Muggsy wants to seize Iranian oilfields right? Tell me how that's a smart idea.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 07:31:45 PM
Sorry. My view isn't a "progressive worldview." My view is grounded in the actualities of the situation. Yours is one governed by absolutes and emotions. IOW, you aren't thinking...you're reacting.
Yes, I know ... the Western progressive worldview is the only correct view.
Israel will 'assassinate' Hamas leaders across Middle East
https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/israel-will-assassinate-hamas-leaders-across-middle-east-expert-20231102-p5eh66
Israel will kill Hamas leaders across the Middle East to prevent the Gaza-based terrorist organisation from attacking the Jewish state again, a former senior intelligence analyst and Defence Department official said.
Intelligence and defence consultant Ross Babbage said the Israel Defence Force's ground operation into the Gaza Strip, which has surprised some observers for not going faster, was "a fairly successful, essentially assassination set of operations" that would expand over time.
"Many of the key supporters of Hamas aren't in Gaza," he said in a phone interview. "It is very likely Israeli and other operators will essentially capture or destroy some of those people, no matter where they are. I don't think they are beyond the reach of the Israelis."
Iran is Hamas' primary supporter. Hamas leaders are reported to live in Beirut and Doha, which also has a large US military base.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 07:33:09 PM
Call your congressperson or senator to quit playing games with aid for Israel.
Congress chose to cut aid to Ukraine and tie the IRS to this bill they knew doesn't stand a chance to pass or have senate support. On top of it, the fiscal conservatives just added even more to the deficit with this stunt
Aid to Ukraine supports the effort in their war against one of Israel's enemies biggest weapons providers
And explain why it will not pass. Because the Democrats want all the unpopular crap tied to the popular Isreal aid bill?
Or are you arguing that Schumer is protecting conservative Senators from having to take a tough vote?
Call the Senate and tell them to pass it?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:41:37 PM
And explain why it will not pass. Because the Democrats want all the unpopular crap tied to the popular Isreal aid bill?
Or are you arguing that Schumer is protecting conservative Senators from having to take a tough vote?
Could you call the Senate and tell them to pass it?
What's popular about gutting the portion of the IRS that goes after wealthy tax cheats?
Why don't you want aid for Ukraine to fight Russia who arms Israel's enemies?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:36:28 PM
Yes, I know ... the Western progressive worldview is the only correct view.
::) ::) ::) ::)
White flag noted. I win.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:36:28 PM
Yes, I know ... the Western progressive worldview is the only correct view.
So, H2O, you keep saying this, and candidly, I have read into it a bit, and as I mentioned listened to the Sam Harris podcast. But, I have a question for you as you seem to operate in "sides." Is the other side to Western Progressive Worldview something like Western Radical Conservative Worldview? Do you define both in terms that people like to define them here in the US? If so, why is your worldview the only one?
Also, I couldn't agree with you more that our Congress is a joke. Want aid for Israel, pass an aid for Israel bill. Want aid for Ukraine, pass an aid for Ukraine bill. Unfortunately, it's all politics, and it is borderline disgusting.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 07:43:58 PM
What's popular about gutting the portion of the IRS that goes after wealthy tax cheats?
Why don't you want aid for Ukraine to fight Russia who arms Israel's enemies?
Congress can pass more than one bill ... including adding back IRS funding.
It is not that hard.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:50:43 PM
Congress can pass more than one bill ... including adding back IRS funding.
It is not that hard.
Why attach it to aid for Israel? It doesn't save any money.
Also, why shouldn't we support Ukraine who is fighting Russia, the country that helps supply weapons to the enemies of Israel?
Republicans care about the budget deficit.***
***Unless it requires funding the IRS to crack down on law-breaking tax cheats.
That dumb bill the House passed doesn't matter, the Senate won't pick it up. The House is a complete mess.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 05:43:26 PM
Did you not read this part?
Throughout the assault he kept calm, but was aggressively attacked by Pro-Palestine rioters," reads the report to the FBI, which was reviewed by the Free Beacon. "
That is the word used in the FBI report. Was it physical? Again, the FBI used the term "aggressively attacked" in their report.
Until the FBI offers clarification, I'll stay with this characterization.
Okay, I suspect you are being disingenuous but I will play along. You are quoting a report
TO the FBI. Not a report
FROM the FBI. A report
TO the FBI is not a statement by the FBI. Literally anyone can give a report to the FBI. I could file a report to the FBI right now that says "Unicorn hooves taste like slightly warmed over paper bags from Trader Joe's" and that would be an official report to the FBI. That would not mean that the FBI has made a statement about the alleged flavor of unicorn hooves. And it does not mean that the FBI is investigating said report. All your source tells you is that someone made this report to the FBI, it does not mean that it is factually accurate or that the FBI is investigating. All this source tells you is that the FBI declined to comment.
Now that we've established that this isn't a report from the FBI but a report to the FBI, let's take this a step further. Do we think the FBI is in the business of releasing reports it receives regarding active investigations to Freedom Beacon or other internet randos? They are not. So what does this tell us? I see only two explanations: 1. Either Freedom Beacon got into contact with the Jewish Student and asked him to share a copy of his report to the FBI with them. Or 2. the Jewish student didn't make this report to the FBI himself but rather Freedom Beacon made it on his behalf after watching the video (or one of their followers did and shared it with Freedom Beacon). Either is possible, though my guess is the Freedom Beacon would likely publicize that they were working with the Jewish student, which leads me to believe that #2 is likely what happened.
So no, the FBI has not categorized the protestors as "rioters" or what happened here as a "physical assault". That's just whoever submitted the report to the FBI (likely Freedom Beacon).
All this being said, the FBI may very well be investigating. I don't know, but I do know that this source doesn't support that assertion (it doesn't refute it either). Maybe there's another source out there that actually states what you are asserting.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 05:43:26 PM
You can also offer your expert analysis of the video, but my expert analysis makes it look straightforward: the Jewish student was physically assaulted.
Your expert analysis of this article? No. Your expert analysis of the video? Have you watched the video? If you have and you see clearly evidence of a physical assault, please point out the marker where this occurs. If I missed something I'm happy to admit that I am wrong. I only watched the video once on normal speed so it's possible I missed something.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 05:43:26 PM
I might add that Harvard Alums are now calling for disciplinary action.
https://nypost.com/2023/11/02/business/bill-ackman-demands-suspension-of-harvard-law-review-editor-who-accosted-jewish-student/
Apparently, there is a lot more of this than is being reported.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-02/harvard-yale-warned-by-top-law-firms-about-campus-antisemitism
The letter was written this week by Joseph C. Shenker, senior chair of Sullivan & Cromwell, after he was contacted by Jewish law students from top universities. He circulated the draft to the other firms, each of which sent a copy to the law schools they work with on Wednesday night, Shenker said in an interview.
When asked if the firms would curtail recruiting from schools where they have seen concerning behavior, Shenker said, "People can draw their own conclusions. The letter speaks for itself."
"We're asking the deans to create a safe environment for all their students where one is treated with respect," he said. "That's what we require at our firms. I believe the deans are working towards that."
This is irrelevant to what you and I were discussing. Besides, we already established early on that you are pro-cancel culture. And I've already stated that I am supportive of private companies' right to making hiring decisions based on free speech that they don't agree with.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 02, 2023, 07:43:58 PM
What's popular about gutting the portion of the IRS that goes after wealthy tax cheats?
Why don't you want aid for Ukraine to fight Russia who arms Israel's enemies?
wealthy tax cheats like the one that slipped just past the statute of limitations, funny money coming in from china/cefc, russia/elena baturina et.al., ukraine/burisma holdings, romania/gabriel popoviciu, and the assortment of those finger paintings sold to eventual dem donors and appointees.
all of this would be considered income if they had registered under the fara as well
shouldn't need an extra 80 some thousad more to under take stuff like this
Great reading for y'all sympathizers and beyond, aina?
https://canarymission.org/
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 02, 2023, 08:41:59 PM
wealthy tax cheats like the one that slipped just past the statute of limitations, funny money coming in from china/cefc, russia/elena baturina et.al., ukraine/burisma holdings, romania/gabriel popoviciu, and the assortment of those finger paintings sold to eventual dem donors and appointees.
all of this would be considered income if they had registered under the fara as well
shouldn't need an extra 80 some thousad more to under take stuff like this
5.5 out of 10
Quote from: Goose on November 02, 2023, 06:48:52 PM
Muggsy
I have stayed out of this thread for 88 pages and want you to know I agree with much of your sentiment. I am outraged with what happened in 10/7, support Israel 100% and am disgusted by the antisemitism in the world.
I appreciate your passion and your concern for Israel and the Jewish Community. This is beyond a serious global situation and I believe many on here are misguided.
Keep up the fight, I am pro- Muggsy!!
Ty Goose. I'm extremely disappointed with some of tbe takes in this thread.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 07:33:50 PM
You realize that Muggsy wants to seize Iranian oilfields right? Tell me how that's a smart idea.
He's recently come in support of the guy who displays extreme, overcompensating homophobia and the guy who wants to nuke people and turn the U.S. into a pariah state. So yeah.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:30:50 PM
That is precisely what they did.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-passes-republicans-israel-aid-bill-faces-dead-end-senate-2023-11-02/
The democrats know Israel's aid is popular and want to tie all their other less popular wishes to it.
So, who is playing politics here?
No, that's not what they passed. The bill they passed ties assistance to Israel to one of their domestic agenda items, i.e. cuts in IRS funding. It literally states that in the first sentence of the story you linked.
So, two simple questions:
Should the U.S. continue to provide aid to Ukraine?
Should U.S. assistance to Israel be dependent upon cuts to the IRS budget?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 02, 2023, 07:50:43 PM
Congress can pass more than one bill ... including adding back IRS funding.
It is not that hard.
This is such a bizarre take.
This is quite simple.
Should we provide aid to Israel. Most here, including myself, think, yes. So have a stand alone bill to support it.
Should we provide aid to Ukraine. Most here, including myself, agree, yes. So have a stand alone bill to support it.
Should we cut IRS funding. Highly partisan issue, that should not be tied to either of the above. The GOP led house, who wants to cut IRS funding, tied it to the highly popular and needed aid to Israel. That is wrong. Plain and simple...no need for a debate. Put the stand alone bill up and all will support it.
Man who went on social media to demand Harvard students be doxxed now says that's probably bad idea and blames ... social media?
I can see why he has his admirers here. He's all over the place.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bill-ackman-went-crusade-publicly-071808135.html
And from this post, I'd say he sounds a lot like a Western Progressive with an unconstrained worldview.. Working toward a world without hate? Sitting down with someone to discuss different perspectives? WTAF?
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1719175483185594839
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2023, 08:43:07 PM
Great reading for y'all sympathizers and beyond, aina?
https://canarymission.org/
A doxxing org that hunts down even basic criticism of Israel policy and tries to destroy career prospects of those who boycotted? and has been suspended from social media for sending targeted harassment and threats to those people?
That tracks.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2023, 08:43:07 PM
Great reading for y'all sympathizers and beyond, aina?
https://canarymission.org/
Fresh air dude. It would do you some good.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 02, 2023, 03:57:17 PM
My pronouns are Free and Palestine. Have we decided which campus conservative organization we are going to cancel and stifle free speech for in November yet?
Are you reading The Onion?
https://www.theonion.com/free-speech-absolutists-explain-why-people-they-disagre-1850981202?utm_source=TheOnion_Daily_RSS_breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2023-11-02_breaking
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 02, 2023, 07:33:50 PM
You realize that Muggsy wants to seize Iranian oilfields right? Tell me how that's a smart idea.
He didn't say it was smart, just that he agrees.
Remember when we had the Western Regressive (Conservative) Worldview and got into two decades long quagmires in the Middle East that finally ended and cost tax payers 2-3 trillion dollars?
Quote from: Goose on November 02, 2023, 06:48:52 PM
Muggsy
I have stayed out of this thread for 88 pages and want you to know I agree with much of your sentiment. I am outraged with what happened in 10/7, support Israel 100% and am disgusted by the antisemitism in the world.
I appreciate your passion and your concern for Israel and the Jewish Community. This is beyond a serious global situation and I believe many on here are misguided.
Keep up the fight, I am pro- Muggsy!!
Goose, you do realize that Muggs is more than just "passionate" about this topic, that he thinks Israel should seriously consider deploying nuclear weapons, right?
I've always thought of you as one of the more reasonable Scoopers, so I wouldn't have thought you'd agree that nukes should be used in the Middle East, but Scoop never runs out of surprises.
For the record, I also am outraged with what happened on 10/7, support Israel 100% and am disgusted by the antisemitism in the world. (I'm especially disgusted by the antisemitism in America, and I'm disappointed that some who claim to be pro-Jewish nevertheless favor politicians who give aid to and solicit support from raging antisemites.)
I not only appreciate Muggsy's passion and concern for Israel and the Jewish Community, but I share it. First, because it's the right thing to do; and second, because I have a brother and sister-in-law who are part of it.
We also agree that many here are misguided. Get this, Goose: Some actually believe that disagreeing with Israel's leaders on policy makes a person a "Jew-hater." If that's the case, there are hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of Israel Jews who are "Jew-haters."
Hell, nuke them, too!
Anyhoo, congrats. Now you'll get to hear Muggsy's 5-point plan before anyone else here does.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 02, 2023, 10:39:46 PM
Man who went on social media to demand Harvard students be doxxed now says that's probably bad idea and blames ... social media?
I can see why he has his admirers here. He's all over the place.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bill-ackman-went-crusade-publicly-071808135.html
And from this post, I'd say he sounds a lot like a Western Progressive with an unconstrained worldview.. Working toward a world without hate? Sitting down with someone to discuss different perspectives? WTAF?
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1719175483185594839
Yep never trust Bill Ackman. He's nuts. He's an activist investor and everything he says is in an attempt to move/manipulate people. Thankfully it's easy to see through his bluster and bs, but some people buy his grift.
Quote from: MU82 on November 03, 2023, 06:58:33 AM
Anyhoo, congrats. Now you'll get to hear Muggsy's 5-point plan before anyone else here does.
Bit by bit, Muggsy has already revealed the first 4 points of his plan. It's just the last we have to guess at:
1) Assassinate world leaders
2) Use nuclear weapons on resisters
3) Steal other country's resources
4) Subjugate their peoples*
5) ?Profit?
* I should say their remaining peoples, those that survive Step 2.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on November 03, 2023, 05:38:51 AM
Are you reading The Onion?
https://www.theonion.com/free-speech-absolutists-explain-why-people-they-disagre-1850981202?utm_source=TheOnion_Daily_RSS_breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2023-11-02_breaking
*H20 voice* - any source is valid if it confirms my biases and worldview
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 03, 2023, 09:22:08 AM
Bit by bit, Muggsy has already revealed the first 4 points of his plan. It's just the last we have to guess at:
1) Assassinate world leaders
2) Use nuclear weapons on resistors
3) Steal other country's resources
4) Subjugate their peoples*
5) ?Profit?
* I should say their remaining peoples, those that survive Step 2.
Uh.....no. Not even close to my blueprint. And only 3 people on the planet have even seen my 5 Point Plan. And btw Iran's leadership subjugates its people as does Hamas/Palestinian leadership. I will not apologize for advocating hard power.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 03, 2023, 10:27:04 AM
Uh.....no. Not even close to my blueprint. And only 3 people on the planet have even seen my 5 Point Plan. And btw Iran's leadership subjugates its people as does Hamas/Palestinian leadership. I will not apologize for advocating hard power.
A lot of places do.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 03, 2023, 10:27:04 AM
Uh.....no. Not even close to my blueprint. And only 3 people on the planet have even seen my 5 Point Plan. And btw Iran's leadership subjugates its people as does Hamas/Palestinian leadership. I will not apologize for advocating hard power.
Glad to hear that you're fully behind US aid to Ukraine.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 03, 2023, 10:27:04 AM
Uh.....no. Not even close to my blueprint. And only 3 people on the planet have even seen my 5 Point Plan. And btw Iran's leadership subjugates its people as does Hamas/Palestinian leadership. I will not apologize for advocating hard power.
Well, each of those 4 points are things you've advocated within your plan, but perhaps they are mere subpoints within your overall brilliance.
I certainly do appreciate your genius in being able to concoct, in a matter of mere hours, a plan that will in your own words "restore peace and save lives unlike anything we have ever seen before", even if it does mean killing a few million people along the way. Well done in solving a problem in such a short time that has eluded every other person for the last 2000 years.
I do feel that it is a bit like Trump's health care plan, however, always 2 weeks away and never released. What are you waiting for? Shouldn't you be sharing your solution at the highest levels?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 03, 2023, 10:59:49 AM
Well, each of those 4 points are things you've advocated within your plan, but perhaps they are mere subpoints within your overall brilliance.
I certainly do appreciate your genius in being able to concoct, in a matter of mere hours, a plan that will in your own words "restore peace and save lives unlike anything we have ever seen before", even if it does mean killing a few million people along the way. Well done in solving a problem in such a short time that has eluded every other person for the last 2000 years.
I do feel that it is a bit like Trump's health care plan, however, always 2 weeks away and never released. What are you waiting for? Shouldn't you be sharing your solution at the highest levels?
Take it easy man, it's infrastructure week.
Quote from: MU82 on November 03, 2023, 10:52:03 AM
Glad to hear that you're fully behind US aid to Ukraine.
I always have been but would have done things differently. WTH are you talking about?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 03, 2023, 11:08:38 AM
I always have been but would have done things differently. WTH are you talking about?
What would you have done differently?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 11:11:15 AM
What would you have done differently?
That's another 5-point plan available to subscribers only for a nominal fee.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 11:11:15 AM
What would you have done differently?
Invaded Russia in November
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 03, 2023, 11:13:12 AM
Invaded Russia in November
I mentioned what I would have done differently back then.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 03, 2023, 11:13:12 AM
Invaded Russia in November
Introduced Putin to darkness, seize the vodka distilleries.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2023, 11:16:38 AM
Introduced Putin to darkness, seize the vodka distilleries.
What's the worst that can happen? Anyway, it would never fly. Ain't no way a certain political party would let anything happen to Russia
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2023, 11:16:38 AM
Introduced Putin to darkness, seize the vodka distilleries.
I don't care for Vodka.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 03, 2023, 12:23:46 PM
with salt
Do you mean tequila?
I imagine that other than color, there's not much difference between the two.
Here's a spokesperson of note to emulate, aina?
https://nypost.com/2023/11/02/news/how-rashida-tlaib-became-the-biggest-jew-hater-in-congress/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2023, 12:56:45 PM
Here's a spokesperson of note to emulate, aina?
https://nypost.com/2023/11/02/news/how-rashida-tlaib-became-the-biggest-jew-hater-in-congress/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons
Ah yes, the New York Post a rag of note built for boomer brains!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2023, 12:56:45 PM
Here's a spokesperson of note to emulate, aina?
https://nypost.com/2023/11/02/news/how-rashida-tlaib-became-the-biggest-jew-hater-in-congress/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons
I mean, Tlaib is awful, but I don't see her ranting abiut Jewish space lasers and playing footsie with Holocaust deniers.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I mean, Tlaib is awful, but I don't see her ranting abiut Jewish space lasers and playing footsie with Holocaust deniers.
I'm going to need concrete reasons she is awful. If you read that article, the people talking about her are ideologically opposed to her in every way... they're going to say anything they can to remove her from office.
Saying a couple of dumb things doesn't make her awful. If that were the litmus test then pretty much everyone in congress is guilty.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2023, 11:16:38 AM
Introduced Putin to darkness, seize the vodka distilleries.
That's very funny.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2023, 01:12:45 PM
I mean, Tlaib is awful, but I don't see her ranting abiut Jewish space lasers and playing footsie with Holocaust deniers.
She took money from Hamas ... which makes your moral equivalence a form of anti-Semitism.
https://canarymission.org/individual/Rashida_Tlaib
Canary Mission can confirm that Rashida Tlaib has extensive fundraising ties to Hamas supporters. She employed no less than three Hamas-linked activists to fundraise for her 2018 election campaign, one of whom spent 8 months in prison for his alleged connections to Hamas.
Tlaib additionally used a pro-terror Facebook page, PAC-USA, to raise funds for her 2018 Congressional campaign. Tlaib gave the founder of PAC-USA the position of Chairman of the Finance Committee for Rashida Tlaib for Congress. He used it to promote 12 fundraisers in 8 states, entirely with her support.
In 2015, Tlaib co-founded the Detroit-based, anti-American, anti-Israel and pro-terror hate group, Black4Palestine. A co-founder used the group to conduct activism with members of the Marxist-Leninist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), which is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO).
And, on her first day in Congress, five seconds after she walked into her new office in DC, she did this
https://www.newarab.com/news/congresswoman-rashida-tlaib-puts-palestine-map-literally
(https://www.newarab.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_16_9/public/media/images/FAD30831-390C-4ECF-AA2B-A0912B175380.jpg)
This is literally a call to genocide the Jewish population in Isreal out of existence.
----
You should apologize.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 01:22:45 PM
I'm going to need concrete reasons she is awful. If you read that article, the people talking about her are ideologically opposed to her in every way... they're going to say anything they can to remove her from office.
Saying a couple of dumb things doesn't make her awful. If that were the litmus test then pretty much everyone in congress is guilty.
Are you now going to revise this view?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2023, 12:56:45 PM
Here's a spokesperson of note to emulate, aina?
https://nypost.com/2023/11/02/news/how-rashida-tlaib-became-the-biggest-jew-hater-in-congress/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons
Cool. I gotta assume you feel the same way about your boy Tuckems, right? He of the Great Replacement Theory and attacking Soros and calling Zelenskyy rat-like...right? Right?
And Margie Jewish Space Lasers? And Gosar "yes, I love Nazi rallies"? And, and, and. Right?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/69/bb/f57Mhyol_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/f57Mhyol)
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 01:32:22 PM
She took money from Hamas ... which makes your moral equivalence a form of anti-Semitism.
https://canarymission.org/individual/Rashida_Tlaib
Canary Mission can confirm that Rashida Tlaib has extensive fundraising ties to Hamas supporters. She employed no less than three Hamas-linked activists to fundraise for her 2018 election campaign, one of whom spent 8 months in prison for his alleged connections to Hamas.
Tlaib additionally used a pro-terror Facebook page, PAC-USA, to raise funds for her 2018 Congressional campaign. Tlaib gave the founder of PAC-USA the position of Chairman of the Finance Committee for Rashida Tlaib for Congress. He used it to promote 12 fundraisers in 8 states, entirely with her support.
In 2015, Tlaib co-founded the Detroit-based, anti-American, anti-Israel and pro-terror hate group, Black4Palestine. A co-founder used the group to conduct activism with members of the Marxist-Leninist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), which is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO).
And, on her first day in Congress, five seconds after she walked into her new office in DC, she did this
https://www.newarab.com/news/congresswoman-rashida-tlaib-puts-palestine-map-literally
(https://www.newarab.com/sites/default/files/styles/large_16_9/public/media/images/FAD30831-390C-4ECF-AA2B-A0912B175380.jpg)
This is literally a call to genocide the Jewish population in Isreal out of existence.
----
You should apologize.
I won't apologize for asking questions, you absolute lunatic.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 01:33:07 PM
Are you now going to revise this view?
(https://media.tenor.com/WtfJo0beYhgAAAAC/no-i-dont-think-i-will.gif)
Quote from: forgetful on November 02, 2023, 07:32:52 PM
Violence will not end the cycle of violence.
There are two solutions to stemming the cycle of violence.
1. The UN needs to finally pass a formal binding resolution establishing a 2-state solution (that means no vetoes by the US.
2. People need to quit using charged language attacking each other, and instead maybe listen and try to understand each other.
As an example. If you and/or Muggsy will humor me.
Define what:
"From the River to the Sea" means.
Similarly, what does Zionism/Zionist and the related terms anti-Zionism mean.
This isn't even Palestinian talking points. It is Hamas's talking point.
1. the UN did offer a two-state solution. In 1948. The Arabs (not called Palestinians back then) rejected it, and the day after, the UN recognized Israel, five Arab countries attacked Israel. Israel prevailed after losing 1% of its population.
In fact, almost every Israeli Prime Minister since 1995 was committed to the Two-State Solution either all the time or at one point or another. Here is the list of Israeli Prime Ministers who officially supported the Two-State Solution:
Shimon Peres (1995–1996) - PM during the Oslo peace process, firm supporter for the Two-State Solution.
Ehud Barak (1999–2001) - held talks in 2000 and 2001
Ariel Sharon (2001–2006) - after the Second Intifada he withdrew from the Gaza Strip in order to revive the peace process
Ehud Olmert (2006–20009) - held talks in 2008
Benjamin Netanyahu (2009-present) - negotiations in 2010, 2013–14, and the Trump plan in 2020.
The Palestinians have rejected every single plan. Why? Because they don't want a two-state solution. They want a one-state solution, the want to genocide the Jews out of existence.
---
This gets me to #2; you claim we need to stop using "highly charged language." This is not a highly charged language; this is what the leadership of Gaza wane, Hamas. As said I posted yesterday.
What part of this don't you understand?Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad's interview on Lebanese TV last week, as translated by Lebanese TV
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified
"Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country, because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished. We are not ashamed to say this, with full force.
"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.
"The occupation must come to an end."
News anchor: "Occupation where? In the Gaza Strip?"
Hamad: "No, I am talking about all the Palestinian lands."
"The existence of Israel is illogical. The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood, and tears. It is Israel, not us. We are the victims of the occupation. Period. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October 1,000,000 – everything we do is justified."
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 01:39:03 PM
I won't apologize for asking questions, you absolute lunatic.
Would you like to revise any of this you wrote 15 minutes ago?
I'm going to need concrete reasons she is awful. If you read that article, the people talking about her are ideologically opposed to her in every way... they're going to say anything they can to remove her from office.
Saying a couple of dumb things doesn't make her awful.---
Lunatic = Someone who does not adhere to the Western Progressive Worldview, the only correct view.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 03, 2023, 01:37:30 PM
Cool. I gotta assume you feel the same way about your boy Tuckems, right? He of the Great Replacement Theory and attacking Soros and calling Zelenskyy rat-like...right? Right?
And Margie Jewish Space Lasers? And Gosar "yes, I love Nazi rallies"? And, and, and. Right?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/69/bb/f57Mhyol_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/f57Mhyol)
I think it's amusing that people that question the Jewish bona fides of George Soros chime in on anti-semitism
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 01:45:56 PM
Would you like to revise any of this you wrote 15 minutes ago?
I'm going to need concrete reasons she is awful. If you read that article, the people talking about her are ideologically opposed to her in every way... they're going to say anything they can to remove her from office.
Saying a couple of dumb things doesn't make her awful.
---
Lunatic = Someone who does not adhere to the Western Progressive Worldview, the only correct view.
What's the correct world view?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 01:45:56 PM
Would you like to revise any of this you wrote 15 minutes ago?
I'm going to need concrete reasons she is awful. If you read that article, the people talking about her are ideologically opposed to her in every way... they're going to say anything they can to remove her from office.
Saying a couple of dumb things doesn't make her awful.
---
Lunatic = Someone who does not adhere to the Western Progressive Worldview, the only correct view.
No, that isn't what I said. But I can see how
you might make such an illogical jump to such a conclusion.
Considering you're an idiot.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 01:49:54 PM
No, that isn't what I said. But I can see how you might make such an illogical jump to such a conclusion.
Considering you're an idiot.
Then explain to me, like I'm an idiot, not a serious person, or a lunatic, while you still do not have a problem with Tlaib but do with MTG?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 03, 2023, 01:48:50 PM
What's the correct world view?
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65076.msg1581242#msg1581242
This was addressed to the leader of Muslims on this board ....
-----
What you cannot accept is they (Hamas and many Palestinians) have a completely different worldview. One of death, violence, and oppression. One that wants to genocide 8 million Jews in Israel.
No, this has to be wrong. No one rationally thinks this way. They had to have been driven to this by evil perpetrated upon them, right? So, Israel bears responsibility. Then you find something Israel did wrong (hint: everyone does wrong things) and then say it is Israel's fault.
This is the crux of the issue. Hamad is telling you it. You just cannot, and will not, hear it!
So you use sophisticated words like "complicated," "nuisance," and now "realpolitik." You then dissemble until you make yourself and mini-me above feel better that Hamas and Palestinians are really friendly, gentle people who agree with your worldview. It is all about Isreal.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 01:22:45 PM
I'm going to need concrete reasons she is awful. If you read that article, the people talking about her are ideologically opposed to her in every way... they're going to say anything they can to remove her from office.
Saying a couple of dumb things doesn't make her awful. If that were the litmus test then pretty much everyone in congress is guilty.
If you think I'm taking my cues from a NY Post story (which I didn't read), you would be mistaken.
How is she awful? How much time we got?
- doubling down on blaming Israel for the hospital blast when U.S. intelligence says otherwise and providing no evidence to the contrary.
- calling for the elimination of federal prisons
- calling for the elimination of ICE
- arguing that one can't be progressive if they support thet support Israel
- saying there should be "no more policing or incarceration."
That's a start, anyhow.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 01:54:45 PM
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65076.msg1581242#msg1581242
This was addressed to the leader of Muslims on this board ....
-----
What you cannot accept is they (Hamas and many Palestinians) have a completely different worldview. One of death, violence, and oppression. One that wants to genocide 8 million Jews in Israel.
No, this has to be wrong. No one rationally thinks this way. They had to have been driven to this by evil perpetrated upon them, right? So, Israel bears responsibility. Then you find something Israel did wrong (hint: everyone does wrong things) and then say it is Israel's fault.
This is the crux of the issue. Hamad is telling you it. You just cannot, and will not, hear it!
So you use sophisticated words like "complicated," "nuisance," and now "realpolitik." You then dissemble until you make yourself and mini-me above feel better that Hamas and Palestinians are really friendly, gentle people who agree with your worldview. It is all about Isreal.
Huh
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 01:53:04 PM
Then explain to me, like I'm an idiot, not a serious person, or a lunatic, while you still do not have a problem with Tlaib but do with MTG?
I can't. You're too stupid to understand anything outside of your closed minded warped view.
It's okay to 'have a problem' with some things someone says without saying they're 'awful'. If what you said about Tlaib is all factual (this is where you have a very bad track record) then I have a problem with some things she has said. But please understand, I'm not taking your word for it. I
never will. You play fast and loose with the truth constantly. This is why no one here takes you seriously. You say incorrect things as if they were factual and then get caught and then never address the lies.
That's why you're not a serious person.
That's why I called you a lunatic.
That's why you're an idiot.
I know the world is black and white for you, which I'm quite sure it also makes it very lonely... but you need to understand nuance. Perhaps some introspection is in order.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 01:58:47 PM
0 for 10
What are you struggling with?
Nothing. I've said Israel is well within their right to respond any way they see fit, including sending troops.
I'm not the one turning it into a culture war.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 03, 2023, 01:57:50 PM
If you think I'm taking my cues from a NY Post story (which I didn't read), you would be mistaken.
How is she awful? How much time we got?
- doubling down on blaming Israel for the hospital blast when U.S. intelligence says otherwise and providing no evidence to the contrary.
- calling for the elimination of federal prisons
- calling for the elimination of ICE
- arguing that one can't be progressive if they support thet support Israel
- saying there should be "no more policing or incarceration."
That's a start, anyhow.
I don't. I doubt you even bothered to read it, since it is laced with dog crap. You likely gave it the time it deserved. Zero. ;D Unfortunately, I'm kind of dumb and read it, instead.
None of those things make Tlaib awful, in my opinion, but we can disagree on that. I also sincerely doubt that her entire view of those positions can be explained so glibly.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 03, 2023, 02:01:53 PM
Nothing. I've said Israel is well within their right to respond any way they see fit, including sending troops.
I'm not the one turning it into a culture war.
Hamas turned it into a culture war. It is either their culture or the Israeli (western culture).
As much as you want to pretend this is a glorified police action against some thugs, and once they are arrested, this is over, it is not.
Both sides are saying it is far more than that, and both sides are fighting as if it is more than that.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 02:04:56 PM
I don't. I doubt you even bothered to read it, since it is laced with dog crap. You likely gave it the time it deserved. Zero. ;D Unfortunately, I'm kind of dumb and read it, instead.
None of those things make Tlaib awful, in my opinion, but we can disagree on that. I also sincerely doubt that her entire view of those positions can be explained so glibly.
When I say awful, I don't mean as a human being. I have no idea what she's like as a human being. I'm saying she's awful in the sense that she's espoused awful positions and policy proposals as a member of Congress.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 02:13:05 PM
Hamas turned it into a culture war. It is either their culture or the Israeli (western culture).
As much as you want to pretend this is a glorified police action against some thugs, and once they are arrested, this is over, it is not.
Both sides are saying it is far more than that, and both sides are fighting as if it is more than that.
I'm not pretending it's a police action. It's a war but thanks for reading
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 01:22:45 PM
I'm going to need concrete reasons she is awful. If you read that article, the people talking about her are ideologically opposed to her in every way... they're going to say anything they can to remove her from office.
Saying a couple of dumb things doesn't make her awful. If that were the litmus test then pretty much everyone in congress is guilty.
Really? Let's start with her displaying the Palestinian flag in her official capacity as a member of the U. s. House of Representatives. This isn't hard. Its elementary, aina?
They marched 100 women and children (this is what "human shield" means) onto the battlefield to stand between them and the IDF.
They do this because they believe whatever happens next, they will win.
The IDF does not attack, and they win.
The IDF attacks, and women and children die. The West expresses its outage against Israel. Calls Israel war criminals. Hamas wins.
-----
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bk4yhmlq6
IDF troops who engaged in fierce combat with Hamas terrorists for control over an operations base in the Gaza Strip were met with a disturbing tactic: roughly 100 women and children were pushed forward by Hamas to act as a human barrier.
Soldiers of the Givati Infantry Brigade encountered the shocking scenario during the battle for the base of Hamas's elite Force 17 near Jabaliya in the Gaza Strip. "We stand ready to face more instances of such cynical and brutal use of civilians," an IDF officer said.
And a personal story
Muslim doctor taken hostage, used as human shield by Hamas terrorists disguised as IDF: 'I was praying for a miracle'
https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/muslim-doctor-taken-hostage-used-as-human-shield-by-hamas/
ADDED LATER
Hamas told the world last week this is exactly what they do (what do you think "sacrifice martyrs" means). However, it is so hard for the Western Progressive worldview to accept this that the West rejects it. It cannot be correct!
Hamas knows this, which is why they will say it to your face.
-------
Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad's interview on Lebanese TV last week, as translated by Lebanese TV
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified
"Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country, because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished. We are not ashamed to say this, with full force.
"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 03, 2023, 02:24:21 PM
I'm not pretending it's a police action. It's a war but thanks for reading
Then, it is a war over culture.
I'm sorry that makes you feel uncomfortable.
.01 or 10
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 02:35:53 PM
Then, it is a war over culture.
I'm sorry that makes you feel uncomfortable.
.01 or 10
Yes, the American culture wars are very similar to that of a war between Hamas and Israel. Good lord, you're an idiot
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2023, 02:30:38 PM
Really? Let's start with her displaying the Palestinian flag in her official capacity as a member of the U. s. House of Representatives. This isn't hard. Its elementary, aina?
I have no issue with someone being a proud American and being proud of where they came from. That you do, is awfully telling. If a rep that was born in Israel wants to place the Israeli flag outside their office, that's just fine to. I don't know why people care about this stuff at all.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 02:39:20 PM
I have no issue with someone being a proud American and being proud of where they came from. That you do, is awfully telling. If a rep that was born in Israel wants to place the Israeli flag outside their office, that's just fine to. I don't know why people care about this stuff at all.
Why don't you apply this logic to MTG?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 02:41:40 PM
Why don't you apply this logic to MTG?
I have no idea what you're referring to. I haven't brought her up once in this thread. So you'll need to make some sense of your question.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 02:39:20 PM
I have no issue with someone being a proud American and being proud of where they came from. That you do, is awfully telling. If a rep that was born in Israel wants to place the Israeli flag outside their office, that's just fine to. I don't know why people care about this stuff at all.
If a skinhead was elected to Congress and has displayed a swastika, are you okay with that, too?
How about a southern member of Congress displaying a Confederate flag? Cool too.
The Palestinian flag has a similar meaning as it represents the genocide of 8 million Jews in Israel.
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 02:51:45 PM
If a skinhead was elected to Congress and has displayed a swastika, are you okay with that, too?
The Palestinian flag has a similar meaning as it represents the genocide of 8 million Jews in Isreal.
Not a serious person.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 02:53:03 PM
Not a serious person.
How about a Chinese member of Congress who wants to display a Taiwanese flag?
The US Government currently bans its display on government property.
US to introduce bill allowing display of Taiwan flag at government agencies
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3825086
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 02:57:11 PM
How about a Chinese member of Congress who wants to display a Taiwanese flag?
The US Government currently bans its display on government property.
US to introduce bill allowing display of Taiwan flag at government agencies
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3825086
Does the US Government currently ban the display of the Palestinian flag?
If not, then there's your answer. Why is this so difficult for you?
Quote from: Douche Canoe on November 03, 2023, 02:51:45 PM
If a skinhead was elected to Congress and has displayed a swastika, are you okay with that, too?
How about a southern member of Congress displaying a Confederate flag? Cool too.
The Palestinian flag has a similar meaning as it represents the genocide of 8 million Jews in Israel.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Flag_of_Hamas.svg/2560px-Flag_of_Hamas.svg.png)
does not equal this
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Flag_of_Palestine.svg)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 03, 2023, 02:59:26 PM
Does the US Government currently ban the display of the Palestinian flag?
If not, then there's your answer. Why is this so difficult for you?
Are you cool with the ban of the Taiwanese flag?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 03, 2023, 03:26:49 PM
Are you cool with the ban of the Taiwanese flag?
Personally, I don't care.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2023, 02:30:38 PM
Really? Let's start with her displaying the Palestinian flag in her official capacity as a member of the U. s. House of Representatives. This isn't hard. Its elementary, aina?
Do you feel the same about members who support the Confederate flag? Those showing support for these traitors?
Quote from: Jockey on November 03, 2023, 03:35:56 PM
Do you feel the same about members who support the Confederate flag? Those showing support for these traitors?
This is written like someone does this? Who?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 03, 2023, 02:30:38 PM
Really? Let's start with her displaying the Palestinian flag in her official capacity as a member of the U. s. House of Representatives. This isn't hard. Its elementary, aina?
And how do you feel about Tucks, Margie, Gosar and the others? At the very least they make your list and you denounce them, right?
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 03, 2023, 03:01:11 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Flag_of_Hamas.svg/2560px-Flag_of_Hamas.svg.png)
does not equal this
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Flag_of_Palestine.svg)
Thank you lawdog. This is a perfect example of why it is a waste of time to try to have a legitimate discussion with douchey.
Ignore list is your friend, everyone.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 03, 2023, 03:01:11 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Flag_of_Hamas.svg/2560px-Flag_of_Hamas.svg.png)
does not equal this
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Flag_of_Palestine.svg)
To those who have issue with it on this board? Yes. Down the the premature infants in the NICU (Joined Hamas at birth).
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 03, 2023, 03:45:43 PM
This is written like someone does this? Who?
Your moniker says it all.
Woof!
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/house/house-republican-proposes-bill-expel-palestinians-from-us
I think there are about 15 people on here that could have the handle Not a Serious Person.
Quote from: Goose on November 03, 2023, 06:42:03 PM
I think there are about 15 people on here that could have the handle Not a Serious Person.
I think your count is way too low
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 03, 2023, 04:05:04 PM
Thank you lawdog. This is a perfect example of why it is a waste of time to try to have a legitimate discussion with douchey.
Ignore list is your friend, everyone.
The thing is, there was reasonable discussion here before H20 came back.
My guess would be that H20 and Muggsy are fairly uninformed of the history, complex politics, and causes, both long-term, and more recent of all the troubles.
Some more recent examples of good topics that could be discussed would be, Why did Israel leave Gaza back in 2005? Why did the PLA fail, and Hamas rise to power to get us to where we are now?
What is Israel's goal political goal for Gaza right now?
There are so many more important questions, that get drowned out by hateful dribble.
Some other thoughts.
The thread could also have been an opportunity for people to learn some of the nuances of some of the issues that get viewed as hate, and provide an opportunity for people to learn why things are viewed as hateful, instead of doxxing them and trying to cancel them.
For instance, I asked Muggsy and H20 to define what "From the river to the sea means." The reason, is because like most political issues, there is a continuum.
Hamas and other extremists have hijacked the saying and to them it means the elimination of Israel. Because of this, and the barbaric terrorist actions of Hamas, most Israelis view this saying as terrifying and anti-semitic. This is a valid viewpoint, and because of that, the saying should not be used and is why I would never use the phrase (it is hateful/harmful to Israelis).
However, the majority of kids on campus with signs saying it, or protestors in the US (as well as many many muslims worldwide) actually view it as meaning that all Palestinians should have equal rights, and want a 2-state solution. From their perspective, it is just asking for respect for the Palestinian people, and most don't realize why it is perceived as hateful by others. Instead of calling them anti-semites, and cancelling them, it could have been used as a way to teach them about the different viewpoints of the saying and how to be respectful of other concerns, while still advocating for ones own beliefs.
Similarly, the phrase anti-Zionist (or related Zionism/Zionist). Zionism as a political/religious movement is also a continuum of beliefs.
Most Arabs, and others that say they are anti-Zionist, are referring to the more far-right beliefs (including the Likud party) that since their founding have viewed the idea of Zionism as meaning all of Palestine belongs to them, i.e. Palestinians have no rights and should be expelled. Early Zionists went further and had popular songs saying "There are two sides to the Jordan River and both of them are ours." But again, that is a fringe more extremist view within Zionism.
Most Zionists really just believe that Jews have a right of return to their homeland, and at least up until the recent Hamas led violence have believed in a two-state solution. Indeed, the song that had the line regarding the two sides of the Jordan river, also included an additional line "From the wealth of our land there shall prosper the Arab, the Christian, and the Jew," welcoming them all equally. Most of those that say they are anti-Zionist actually agree with all of this, they just don't understand the differing views within the political spectrum.
Informing people of the complexities of these words, belief structures, and history, and communicating instead of canceling, doxxing, or immediately using strong loaded language condemning the people, could actually lead to more compassion, understanding and growth. This thread could have been a place for that.
Instead, we get more and more name calling, and assigning the fringe extremists views of Hamas to an entire people, and then some saying they all deserve what they get.
As long as everyone allows the extremists to control the narrative we will continue to see a lot of hate, and no progress, and no meaningful discussions here, or more globally.
Quote from: forgetful on November 03, 2023, 09:17:16 PM
Some other thoughts.
The thread could also have been an opportunity for people to learn some of the nuances of some of the issues that get viewed as hate, and provide an opportunity for people to learn why things are viewed as hateful, instead of doxxing them and trying to cancel them.
For instance, I asked Muggsy and H20 to define what "From the river to the sea means." The reason, is because like most political issues, there is a continuum.
Hamas and other extremists have hijacked the saying and to them it means the elimination of Israel. Because of this, and the barbaric terrorist actions of Hamas, most Israelis view this saying as terrifying and anti-semitic. This is a valid viewpoint, and because of that, the saying should not be used and is why I would never use the phrase (it is hateful/harmful to Israelis).
However, the majority of kids on campus with signs saying it, or protestors in the US (as well as many many muslims worldwide) actually view it as meaning that all Palestinians should have equal rights, and want a 2-state solution. From their perspective, it is just asking for respect for the Palestinian people, and most don't realize why it is perceived as hateful by others. Instead of calling them anti-semites, and cancelling them, it could have been used as a way to teach them about the different viewpoints of the saying and how to be respectful of other concerns, while still advocating for ones own beliefs.
Similarly, the phrase anti-Zionist (or related Zionism/Zionist). Zionism as a political/religious movement is also a continuum of beliefs.
Most Arabs, and others that say they are anti-Zionist, are referring to the more far-right beliefs (including the Likud party) that since their founding have viewed the idea of Zionism as meaning all of Palestine belongs to them, i.e. Palestinians have no rights and should be expelled. Early Zionists went further and had popular songs saying "There are two sides to the Jordan River and both of them are ours." But again, that is a fringe more extremist view within Zionism.
Most Zionists really just believe that Jews have a right of return to their homeland, and at least up until the recent Hamas led violence have believed in a two-state solution. Indeed, the song that had the line regarding the two sides of the Jordan river, also included an additional line "From the wealth of our land there shall prosper the Arab, the Christian, and the Jew," welcoming them all equally. Most of those that say they are anti-Zionist actually agree with all of this, they just don't understand the differing views within the political spectrum.
Informing people of the complexities of these words, belief structures, and history, and communicating instead of canceling, doxxing, or immediately using strong loaded language condemning the people, could actually lead to more compassion, understanding and growth. This thread could have been a place for that.
Instead, we get more and more name calling, and assigning the fringe extremists views of Hamas to an entire people, and then some saying they all deserve what they get.
As long as every one allows the extremists to control the narrative, we will continue to see a lot of hate no progress, and no meaningful discussions here or globally.
Simple question: what do the Palestinians want? What Palestinian leadership or group is articulating what they want? Please send me a link.
I've given you many, many posts of Palestinian leaders from the PA to Hamas. The latest is below. They want the genocide of the Jews. They want a one-state solution called Palestine, and it includes zero Jews. Hamad said it last week (also below).
You say they want a two-state solution. Please send me a map
proposed by the Palestinians that details their two-state solution. The Israelis have proposed many of them, also below.
You talk about hate and extremists controlling the narrative. That is only happening on one side.
You are desperate for moral equivalence; you have made that abundantly clear. One does not exist.
------------------
The UN did offer a two-state solution. In 1948. The Arabs (not called Palestinians back then) rejected it, and the day after, the UN recognized Israel, five Arab countries attacked Israel. Israel prevailed after losing 1% of its population.
In fact, almost every Israeli Prime Minister since 1995 was committed to the Two-State Solution either all the time or at one point or another. Here is the list of Israeli Prime Ministers who officially supported the Two-State Solution:
Shimon Peres (1995–1996) - PM during the Oslo peace process, firm supporter for the Two-State Solution.
Ehud Barak (1999–2001) - held talks in 2000 and 2001
Ariel Sharon (2001–2006) - after the Second Intifada he withdrew from the Gaza Strip in order to revive the peace process
Ehud Olmert (2006–20009) - held talks in 2008
Benjamin Netanyahu (2009-present) - negotiations in 2010, 2013–14, and the Trump plan in 2020.
The Palestinians have rejected every single plan. Why? Because they don't want a two-state solution. They want a one-state solution, the want to genocide the Jews out of existence.
---
This gets me to #2; you claim we need to stop using "highly charged language." This is not a highly charged language; this is what the leadership of Gaza wane, Hamas. As said I posted yesterday.
What part of this don't you understand?Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad's interview on Lebanese TV last week, as translated by Lebanese TV
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified
"Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country, because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished. We are not ashamed to say this, with full force.
"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.
"The occupation must come to an end."
News anchor: "Occupation where? In the Gaza Strip?"
Hamad: "No, I am talking about all the Palestinian lands."
"The existence of Israel is illogical. The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood, and tears. It is Israel, not us. We are the victims of the occupation. Period. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October 1,000,000 – everything we do is justified."
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 03, 2023, 06:26:59 PM
Woof!
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/house/house-republican-proposes-bill-expel-palestinians-from-us
What part of this do you have a problem with?
----
The Safeguarding Americans from Extremism Act on Thursday, seeking to prevent "Palestinian terrorists" from entering the country by halting the Department of Homeland Security from issuing visas or granting asylum to individuals seeking to enter the country with a Palestinian Authority passport. The bill would also expel any immigrants who were granted visas or entered the country on or after Oct. 1.
H20, if you want to know examples of why people say you are not a serious person. Most of your post is an example. You fail to actually know the whole histories. I'm not going to deal with everyone of your examples.
But I will address one of them to highlight your misunderstandings.
You say Ariel Sharon withdrew from the Gaza Strip in order to revive the peace process.
Here is what Ariel Sharon's advisor actually said about that move:
"the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/israel
(https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/israel)
According to their own words. This was not a movement towards peace, or movement towards a 2-state solution. It was to avoid both and end them as a possibility forever.
And for the 1-millionth time. Hamas is evil, everyone agrees. The Palestinian people are not Hamas.
Quote from: forgetful on November 03, 2023, 10:36:25 PM
H20, if you want to know examples of why people say you are not a serious person. Most of your post is an example. You fail to actually know the whole histories. I'm not going to deal with everyone of your examples.
But I will address one of them to highlight your misunderstandings.
You say Ariel Sharon withdrew from the Gaza Strip in order to revive the peace process.
Here is what Ariel Sharon's advisor actually said about that move:
"the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/israel
(https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/07/israel)
According to their own words. This was not a movement towards peace, or movement towards a 2-state solution. It was to avoid both and end them as a possibility forever.
And for the 1-millionth time. Hamas is evil, everyone agrees. The Palestinian people are not Hamas.
For the second time, what do the Palestinian people want? Who speaks from them? Where is their two-state solution?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 03, 2023, 10:41:20 PM
For the second time, what do the Palestinian people want? Who speaks from them? Where is their two-state solution?
What the majority of Palestinian people have wanted for a long time. Is their own state. Their own right to self-determination. They have had people who have spoke for them over time, and have proposed numerous 2-state solutions, but these moderate leaders were destined for failure (see below for an example). Other UN led 2-state solutions since 1970 have been vetoed by the US.
Let's look at the complexities of the 2005 Gaza disengagement and original leadership by the PA. They made efforts to maintain agreements that they thought could proceed to a 2-state solution. But it was destined to failure for a number of reasons.
1. They did not have military/police organizations to deal with extremist entities like Hamas, which were better armed and organized. Which means they had no capacity to deal with internal threats to a peace process, and to stop Hamas from continuing attacks.
2. Israel continued with illegal settlements, and there was continued aggression against Palestinians in the West Bank. The PA had no capacity to deal with these settlements or aggression.
3. Israel maintained a blockade of Gaza (for very good reasons), handcuffing any possibilities for economic growth, or development. Again, making the PA look weak and useless.
(note: The above problems did not start in 2005, but were ongoing problems aiding the rise of Hamas' violent vision)
As a result, they looked weak and incapable of advocating for Palestinians, who were suffering and growing increasingly angry. The only group doing anything was the barbaric and extremists Hamas, who was able to then take leadership in part by faking a more moderate tone (including supporting/proposing a 2-state solution in 2017). This moderate tone was a political ploy, designed to gain more moderate supporters and buy time to build a stronger military arm to attack Israel.
Which places us in one of the messiest times in Middle East history, where barbaric terrorist attacks by Hamas, have all but ended moderate Israeli support for a 2-state solution, and the indifference of Israel for civilian lives in the resulting war, has eroded almost all Palestinian support for a 2-state solution.
What is your solution to this problem?
Quote from: forgetful on November 03, 2023, 09:17:16 PM
Some other thoughts.
The thread could also have been an opportunity for people to learn some of the nuances of some of the issues that get viewed as hate, and provide an opportunity for people to learn why things are viewed as hateful, instead of doxxing them and trying to cancel them.
For instance, I asked Muggsy and H20 to define what "From the river to the sea means." The reason, is because like most political issues, there is a continuum.
Hamas and other extremists have hijacked the saying and to them it means the elimination of Israel. Because of this, and the barbaric terrorist actions of Hamas, most Israelis view this saying as terrifying and anti-semitic. This is a valid viewpoint, and because of that, the saying should not be used and is why I would never use the phrase (it is hateful/harmful to Israelis).
However, the majority of kids on campus with signs saying it, or protestors in the US (as well as many many muslims worldwide) actually view it as meaning that all Palestinians should have equal rights, and want a 2-state solution. From their perspective, it is just asking for respect for the Palestinian people, and most don't realize why it is perceived as hateful by others. Instead of calling them anti-semites, and cancelling them, it could have been used as a way to teach them about the different viewpoints of the saying and how to be respectful of other concerns, while still advocating for ones own beliefs.
Similarly, the phrase anti-Zionist (or related Zionism/Zionist). Zionism as a political/religious movement is also a continuum of beliefs.
Most Arabs, and others that say they are anti-Zionist, are referring to the more far-right beliefs (including the Likud party) that since their founding have viewed the idea of Zionism as meaning all of Palestine belongs to them, i.e. Palestinians have no rights and should be expelled. Early Zionists went further and had popular songs saying "There are two sides to the Jordan River and both of them are ours." But again, that is a fringe more extremist view within Zionism.
Most Zionists really just believe that Jews have a right of return to their homeland, and at least up until the recent Hamas led violence have believed in a two-state solution. Indeed, the song that had the line regarding the two sides of the Jordan river, also included an additional line "From the wealth of our land there shall prosper the Arab, the Christian, and the Jew," welcoming them all equally. Most of those that say they are anti-Zionist actually agree with all of this, they just don't understand the differing views within the political spectrum.
Informing people of the complexities of these words, belief structures, and history, and communicating instead of canceling, doxxing, or immediately using strong loaded language condemning the people, could actually lead to more compassion, understanding and growth. This thread could have been a place for that.
Instead, we get more and more name calling, and assigning the fringe extremists views of Hamas to an entire people, and then some saying they all deserve what they get.
As long as everyone allows the extremists to control the narrative we will continue to see a lot of hate, and no progress, and no meaningful discussions here, or more globally.
A lot of thoughtful and well researched posts. Thank you for putting in the effort and trying to bridge the understanding. I'm not sure you're gonna get a certain someone past Palestinian = terrorist no matter how hard you try though.
Quote from: forgetful on November 03, 2023, 11:03:06 PM
What the majority of Palestinian Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 03, 2023, 11:22:49 PM
A lot of thoughtful and well researched posts. Thank you for putting in the effort and trying to bridge the understanding. I'm not sure you're gonna get a certain someone past Palestinian = terrorist no matter how hard you try though.
have wanted for a long time. Is their own state. Their own right to self-determination. They have had people who have spoke for them over time, and have proposed numerous 2-state solutions, but these moderate leaders were destined for failure (see below for an example). Other UN led 2-state solutions since 1970 have been vetoed by the US.
Let's look at the complexities of the 2005 Gaza disengagement and original leadership by the PA. They made efforts to maintain agreements that they thought could proceed to a 2-state solution. But it was destined to failure for a number of reasons.
1. They did not have military/police organizations to deal with extremist entities like Hamas, which were better armed and organized. Which means they had no capacity to deal with internal threats to a peace process, and to stop Hamas from continuing attacks.
2. Israel continued with illegal settlements, and there was continued aggression against Palestinians in the West Bank. The PA had no capacity to deal with these settlements or aggression.
3. Israel maintained a blockade of Gaza (for very good reasons), handcuffing any possibilities for economic growth, or development. Again, making the PA look weak and useless.
(note: The above problems did not start in 2005, but were ongoing problems aiding the rise of Hamas' violent vision)
As a result, they looked weak and incapable of advocating for Palestinians, who were suffering and growing increasingly angry. The only group doing anything was the barbaric and extremists Hamas, who was able to then take leadership in part by faking a more moderate tone (including supporting/proposing a 2-state solution in 2017). This moderate tone was a political ploy, designed to gain more moderate supporters and buy time to build a stronger military arm to attack Israel.
Which places us in one of the messiest times in Middle East history, where barbaric terrorist attacks by Hamas, have all but ended moderate Israeli support for a 2-state solution, and the indifference of Israel for civilian lives in the resulting war, has eroded almost all Palestinian support for a 2-state solution.
What is your solution to this problem?
You did not give an example of a palestinian two-state solution (date and map), instead you gave a bunch of excuses and justifications for why they don't have a two-state solution.
How about facing reality, in the last 75 years, they've never proposed one because they don't want one. They want a one state solution called Palestine with no Jews. And to accomplish this they want to exterminate all the Jews "from the river to the sea."
What you did was give us the western progressive worldview, because that's what you believe, not what the Palestinians have said. And you have been lauded by others here that have the conceit to believe everyone agrees with the Western progressive worldview, and its "thoughtful and well researched" rationalization and dissembling of the facts.
——
I have given my solution about 15 times.
It starts with the Palestinians have an incompatible worldview with the West. Such situations are hardly new in history. In fact they are the basis for all wars throughout history. A fight for the existence of one worldview over the other.
And the way you frame it, by saying Hamas is terrible, but the Palestinian people are not Hamas, is to suggest this is merely a police action against a bunch of rogue criminals and nothing more.
It is a fight for the existence of Israel. Because the October 7 attack was an attack on the existence of Israel, the largest progrom, since the holocaust.
Hamas has promised more such attacks. And we have seen virtually no one from the Palestinian or Arab world denounce with Hamas did. Instead, we see giant rallies in favor of what they did chanting "from the river to the sea."
So if you want peace, one side has the win. that needs to be Israel.
The example is World War II. It doesn't mean a genocide. We didn't genocide the German or Japanese people. But we did inflict tremendous pain on them until they gave up on their worldview of Nazism. The same needs to be done with the Palestinians until they give up on a "River to sea" one state solution, accept the existence of Isreal, and truly want peace with them.
So yes, I see the world as black and white, because it is when two incompatible worldviews clash. Nuance, complexities and dissembling is incredibly naïve and dangerous.
The uncomfortable reality you cannot accept is their will never be compatibility between these two cultures as they are currently constituted. To pretend otherwise is to sentence more and more people to death. Letting one side prevail so the cultures merge into one capitible version minimizes death in the long run.
Fire bombing Dresden and nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima saved more lives in the long run. Because it inflicted so much short term pain, they surrendered, and gave up on their incapitible worldview, and have lived in peace and harmony with the West for the last 80 years.
Quote from: forgetful on November 03, 2023, 11:03:06 PM
What the majority of Palestinian people have wanted for a long time. Is their own state. Their own right to self-determination. They have had people who have spoke for them over time, and have proposed numerous 2-state solutions, but these moderate leaders were destined for failure (see below for an example). Other UN led 2-state solutions since 1970 have been vetoed by the US.
Let's look at the complexities of the 2005 Gaza disengagement and original leadership by the PA. They made efforts to maintain agreements that they thought could proceed to a 2-state solution. But it was destined to failure for a number of reasons.
1. They did not have military/police organizations to deal with extremist entities like Hamas, which were better armed and organized. Which means they had no capacity to deal with internal threats to a peace process, and to stop Hamas from continuing attacks.
2. Israel continued with illegal settlements, and there was continued aggression against Palestinians in the West Bank. The PA had no capacity to deal with these settlements or aggression.
3. Israel maintained a blockade of Gaza (for very good reasons), handcuffing any possibilities for economic growth, or development. Again, making the PA look weak and useless.
(note: The above problems did not start in 2005, but were ongoing problems aiding the rise of Hamas' violent vision)
As a result, they looked weak and incapable of advocating for Palestinians, who were suffering and growing increasingly angry. The only group doing anything was the barbaric and extremists Hamas, who was able to then take leadership in part by faking a more moderate tone (including supporting/proposing a 2-state solution in 2017). This moderate tone was a political ploy, designed to gain more moderate supporters and buy time to build a stronger military arm to attack Israel.
Which places us in one of the messiest times in Middle East history, where barbaric terrorist attacks by Hamas, have all but ended moderate Israeli support for a 2-state solution, and the indifference of Israel for civilian lives in the resulting war, has eroded almost all Palestinian support for a 2-state solution.
What is your solution to this problem?
Uh-huh....so Israel is responsible for the rise of Hamas. Thx for clarifying that. Are you saying Abbas wants a two-state solution? Who amongst Palestinian leadership wants a two-state solution and what would that entail exactly? What percentage of Palestinians have denounced the despicable massacre on Oct 7? What percentage of Arabs have? Of Muslims have?
Meanwhile, let's say every Jew left present day Israel and told the Palestinians they could have the entire piece of land. That they've had enough of this garbage so here, take it. What do you think would happen? What happened when other Arab states controlled parts of Israel? Did they treat the Palestinian people like besties?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 03, 2023, 11:37:49 PM
You did not give an example of a palestinian two-state solution (date and map), instead you gave a bunch of excuses and justifications for why they don't have a two-state solution.
How about facing reality, in the last 75 years, they've never proposed one because they don't want one. They want a one state solution called Palestine with no Jews. And to accomplish this they want to exterminate all the Jews "from the river to the sea."
What you did was give us the western progressive worldview, because that's what you believe, not what the Palestinians have said. And you have been lauded by others here that have the conceit to believe everyone agrees with the Western progressive worldview, and its "thoughtful and well researched" rationalization and dissembling of the facts.
Let's just go with recent history. But everything dates back to UN security resolution 242 that was vetoed. Pretty much every peace deal since then goes back to that resolutions language. A two-state solution along the borders of 1967.
Arafat, with the 1988 Declaration of Independence, included recognition of Israel, and called for borders consistent with resolution 242.
Abbas acknowledged Israel as a state, and called for a 2-state solution along the pre-1967 borders (consistent with resolution 242) back in at least 2012, and has continued calling for it since. Their negotiating partners, Egypt, Jordan and others have done the same dating back to the 70's.
Even Hamas, which I mentioned was a hollow offer as they didn't intend on remaining peaceful, offered a 2-state solution based on pre-1967 borders. It is in their 2017 charter.
There is room for reasonable debate that none of these were serious offers, because they knew that Israel would not accept them, but no one has put up any offer that would be deemed reasonable to either party. That is why the UN needs to impose a 2-state solution.
---------
Separate, your solution to the problem calls for the elimination of Palestine. Which either now, or in the near future would result in WWIII, not peace.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 08:44:45 AM
Uh-huh....so Israel is responsible for the rise of Hamas. Thx for clarifying that.
If that is what you got out of my post, then it is an example of why we can't have honest meaningful conversations on here.
We will give you a shot though. Identify any inaccuracies in my 3 points, and explain how Hamas rose to power and why? That's an important point of discussion, because if one goes with your and H20's plan of introducing all of Palestine to darkness, there needs to be a plan to stop history from repeating itself.
Quote from: forgetful on November 04, 2023, 09:29:03 AM
Let's just go with recent history. But everything dates back to UN security resolution 242 that was vetoed. Pretty much every peace deal since then goes back to that resolutions language. A two-state solution along the borders of 1967.
Arafat, with the 1988 Declaration of Independence, included recognition of Israel, and called for borders consistent with resolution 242.
Abbas acknowledged Israel as a state, and called for a 2-state solution along the pre-1967 borders (consistent with resolution 242) back in at least 2012, and has continued calling for it since. Their negotiating partners, Egypt, Jordan and others have done the same dating back to the 70's.
Even Hamas, which I mentioned was a hollow offer as they didn't intend on remaining peaceful, offered a 2-state solution based on pre-1967 borders. It is in their 2017 charter.
There is room for reasonable debate that none of these were serious offers, because they knew that Israel would not accept them, but no one has put up any offer that would be deemed reasonable to either party. That is why the UN needs to impose a 2-state solution.
---------
Separate, your solution to the problem calls for the elimination of Palestine. Which either now, or in the near future would result in WWIII, not peace.
If that is what you got out of my post, then it is an example of why we can't have honest meaningful conversations on here.
We will give you a shot though. Identify any inaccuracies in my 3 points, and explain how Hamas rose to power and why? That's an important point of discussion, because if one goes with your and H20's plan of introducing all of Palestine to darkness, there needs to be a plan to stop history from repeating itself.
Where did I write "Introduce all of Palestine to darkness"? And what exactly are the borders of Palestine?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 09:42:02 AM
Where did I write "Introduce all of Palestine to darkness"? And what exactly are the borders of Palestine?
The best I can gauge from your plan is to forcefully remove all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. I'm open to you proposing something more specific.
There currently is no Palestinian state, so they have no formal borders. Legally Gaza and the West Bank are supposed to be under their authority, but ~700,000 settlers have occupied areas of the West Bank.
Quote from: forgetful on November 04, 2023, 09:48:48 AM
The best I can gauge from your plan is to forcefully remove all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. I'm open to you proposing something more specific.
There currently is no Palestinian state, so they have no formal borders. Legally Gaza and the West Bank are supposed to be under their authority, but ~700,000 settlers have occupied areas of the West Bank.
Exacty. There is no Palestine and the surrounding Arab states refuse to take any Palestinians. That has to change. Israel is like a quarter on a football field in size.compared to the vastness of the Middle East. There has to be something worked out AFTER you drop the hammer on Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, AND the Mullahs. .
Boy am I glad I haven't been in this thread. Reading just the 93rd page demonstrates why younger, educated people can't wait for one-dimensional thinkers like Muggsy and H20 to "age out" of the voting populace.
Quote from: forgetful on November 04, 2023, 09:29:03 AM
Let's just go with recent history. But everything dates back to UN security resolution 242 that was vetoed. Pretty much every peace deal since then goes back to that resolutions language. A two-state solution along the borders of 1967.
Arafat, with the 1988 Declaration of Independence, included recognition of Israel, and called for borders consistent with resolution 242.
Abbas acknowledged Israel as a state, and called for a 2-state solution along the pre-1967 borders (consistent with resolution 242) back in at least 2012, and has continued calling for it since. Their negotiating partners, Egypt, Jordan and others have done the same dating back to the 70's.
Even Hamas, which I mentioned was a hollow offer as they didn't intend on remaining peaceful, offered a 2-state solution based on pre-1967 borders. It is in their 2017 charter.
There is room for reasonable debate that none of these were serious offers, because they knew that Israel would not accept them, but no one has put up any offer that would be deemed reasonable to either party. That is why the UN needs to impose a 2-state solution.
---------
Separate, your solution to the problem calls for the elimination of Palestine. Which either now, or in the near future would result in WWIII, not peace.
If that is what you got out of my post, then it is an example of why we can't have honest meaningful conversations on here.
We will give you a shot though. Identify any inaccuracies in my 3 points, and explain how Hamas rose to power and why? That's an important point of discussion, because if one goes with your and H20's plan of introducing all of Palestine to darkness, there needs to be a plan to stop history from repeating itself.
First, UN Resolution 242 was not vetoed, it was unanimously adopted in November 1967. (Is this part where I get to condescend the "thoughtful and well researched" post you did? Do I get to call you "not a serious person?")
242 led to the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt and the 1993 peace agreements (both of which were awarded Nobel Peace Prizes). So 242 did pass, and it lead to big changes. But things have changed since 1967 (56 years ago) that it no longer applies. Things especially changed in the last month that makes two-state currently impossible.
Second, as far as the the PLO and PA calls for a two-state solution, you yourself acknowledge they were not serious. They were made for western audiences, mouthing the words to placate western progressives. Around here, we would say the Palestinians are "not serious people."
Second, the "return to the 1967 borders" are things Western Progressives say to sound sophisticated, without understanding why this is never possible, nor should it be possible.
Israel was attacked in the 1967 six day war (like they were last month). They responded by defeating the Jordanian and Egyptian armies.
Sorry, the Arab armies attacked Israel to wipe them off the face of the earth and they got their a$$ kicked badly and they lost the West Bank and Gaza as a consequence of their actions. No country attacked and takes land as a buffer against hostile neighbors has ever been asked to return that land to those hostile neighbors without anything in return.
Just like the US maintains army bases in Germany, Japan and Korea to this day. Our presence of those "occupied lands" was needed for decades to ensure they would not move aggressively against us again. Even now, that Germany, Japan and Korea are no longer a military threat to the West, we still don't give back these "occupied lands" and never will. Their are consequences to attacking and losing. Sorry for the slap of reality.
So Israel will not, and should not ever give back those lands (aka "return to the 1967 borders") WITHOUT assurances of peace. These assurances have never been made.
You could argue that Gaza was actually a "return to a 1967 border," when Israel withdrew in 2005. Since 2005 Gaza has had a zero Jews. Did the Palestinians turn it into Singapore or Hong Kong? No, they converted it into an open air prison to stage terrorist attack against Israel.
Given this example, it would be suicidal for Israel to return the 1967 borders without assurances that no one ever ever fire another rocket, or say anti-Zionist slogans ever again. This Palestinians will never give these assureances so they will never get these lands back.
Finally, the West Bank settlers. 2020 census puts them at 460,000, not 700,000 another fact you got wrong (is this the part where I say no one here takes you seriously?) Of them about 20,000 are probably illegal.
The West Bank is where Jerseuleum, Bethlehem, Nazareth, Hebron and many other holy Jewish sites are found (the Jews call the West Bank Judea and Samaria) Jews have lived on these lands for thousands of years. Many have lived there since before 1948 and have legal deeds to this land (they bought it from the Arabs).
So to demand that the West Bank Settlers are the problem is to acknowledge that the Palestinians cannot stand even one Jew on their land. All Jews must be eliminated from existence and calling for West Bank Settlers to leave is to agree with this position.
If the Palestinians really want a two-state solution, they can start by finding a way to live with the West Bank Settlers that have existed on these lands for longer than Islam has been a Religion.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on November 04, 2023, 11:07:46 AM
Boy am I glad I haven't been in this thread. Reading just the 93rd page demonstrates why younger, educated people can't wait for one-dimensional thinkers like Muggsy and H20 to "age out" of the voting populace.
Yes, because "Queers for Palestine" is the enlightened thinking we can look forward to from the next generation.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 11:38:07 AM
First, UN Resolution 242 was not vetoed, it was unanimously adopted in November 1967. (Is this part where I get to condescend the "thoughtful and well researched" post you did? Do I get to call you "not a serious person?")
242 led to the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt and the 1993 peace agreements (both of which were awarded Nobel Peace Prizes). So 242 did pass, and it lead to big changes. But things have changed since 1967 (56 years ago) that it no longer applies. Things especially changed in the last month that makes two-state currently impossible.
Second, as far as the the PLO and PA calls for a two-state solution, you yourself acknowledge they were not serious. They were made for western audiences, mouthing the words to placate western progressives. Around here, we would say the Palestinians are "not serious people."
Second, the "return to the 1967 borders" are things Western Progressives say to sound sophisticated, without understanding why this is never possible, nor should it be possible.
Israel was attacked in the 1967 six day war (like they were last month). They responded by defeating the Jordanian and Egyptian armies.
Sorry, the Arab armies attacked Israel to wipe them off the face of the earth and they got their a$$ kicked badly and they lost the West Bank and Gaza as a consequence of their actions. No country attacked and takes land as a buffer against hostile neighbors has ever been asked to return that land to those hostile neighbors without anything in return.
Just like the US maintains army bases in Germany, Japan and Korea to this day. Our presence of those "occupied lands" was needed for decades to ensure they would not move aggressively against us again. Even now, that Germany, Japan and Korea are no longer a military threat to the West, we still don't give back these "occupied lands" and never will. Their are consequences to attacking and losing. Sorry for the slap of reality.
So Israel will not, and should not ever give back those lands (aka "return to the 1967 borders") WITHOUT assurances of peace. These assurances have never been made.
You could argue that Gaza was actually a "return to a 1967 border," when Israel withdrew in 2005. Since 2005 Gaza has had a zero Jews. Did the Palestinians turn it into Singapore or Hong Kong? No, they converted it into an open air prison to stage terrorist attack against Israel.
Given this example, it would be suicidal for Israel to return the 1967 borders without assurances that no one ever ever fire another rocket, or say anti-Zionist slogans ever again. This Palestinians will never give these assureances so they will never get these lands back.
Finally, the West Bank settlers. 2020 census puts them at 460,000, not 700,000 another fact you got wrong (is this the part where I say no one here takes you seriously?) Of them about 20,000 are probably illegal.
The West Bank is where Jerseuleum, Bethlehem, Nazareth, Hebron and many other holy Jewish sites are found (the Jews call the West Bank Judea and Samaria) Jews have lived on these lands for thousands of years. Many have lived there since before 1948 and have legal deeds to this land (they bought it from the Arabs).
So to demand that the West Bank Settlers are the problem is to acknowledge that the Palestinians cannot stand even one Jew on their land. All Jews must be eliminated from existence and calling for West Bank Settlers to leave is to agree with this position.
If the Palestinians really want a two-state solution, they can start by finding a way to live with the West Bank Settlers that have existed on these lands for longer than Islam has been a Religion.
Wasn't the naming of Judea "Palestine" arguably anti-Jewish? I don't think Palestinians were technically an ethnicity until just after WWI. They're Arabs, and yet the other Arabs use them as pawns and literally have no other interest in them as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 11:43:38 AM
Yes, because "Queers for Palestine" is the enlightened thinking we can look forward to from the next generation.
Both groups people you think of as subhuman?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 11:43:38 AM
Yes, because "Queers for Palestine" is the enlightened thinking we can look forward to from the next generation.
I wish you wouldn't have said this H2O. Honestly, I've been reading your recent posts, and your wording has been welcome, at least by me. You aren't changing your commitment to your belief, respect, and you are acknowledging there is complication and nuance. You are open to peace, you are open to Palestine as a state free from terrorist governance, with assurances and guidelines, of course. Then, you say this. So close, H2O, so close.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 11:56:37 AM
Wasn't the naming of Judea "Palestine" arguably anti-Jewish? I don't think Palestinians were technically an ethnicity until just after WWI. They're Arabs, and yet the other Arabs use them as pawns and literally have no other interest in them as far as I can tell.
The theory is when the Romans kicked the Jews off their land, they renamed to people from Judea Philistines to insult the Jews. Palestinian is a derivative of this, which peaks volumes to their goals.
Yes Palestine was invented in the 20th century and has never been a formal place.
In 1967 the West Bank was part of Jordan. Gaza was part of Egypt. So they were Jordanian and Egyptian, not Palestinian.
The PLO was formed in 1964. A good time to have created Palestine would have been when the West Bank for part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. But, they were not very interested in creating Palestine until the lost those lands in 1967.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 04, 2023, 12:13:04 PM
I wish you wouldn't have said this H2O. Honestly, I've been reading your recent posts, and your wording has been welcome, at least by me. You aren't changing your commitment to your belief, respect, and you are acknowledging there is complication and nuance. You are open to peace, you are open to Palestine as a state free from terrorist governance, with assurances and guidelines, of course. Then, you say this. So close, H2O, so close.
Fair enough ... I will refrain from responding to these attacks, like the one right above your post
Baby ... I apologize.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 11:38:07 AM
First, UN Resolution 242 was not vetoed, it was unanimously adopted in November 1967. (Is this part where I get to condescend the "thoughtful and well researched" post you did? Do I get to call you "not a serious person?")
You are welcome to call me "not a serious person," but it is simpler for me to simply say I was wrong about the actual UN resolution 242. What is true, is that every resolution since then, largely starting in 1976 that proposed 2-states solutions based on Resolution 242 were vetoed by the US.
My error.
For the rest, and in general. All the peace agreements were based on Resolution 242. That occurred after the 6-day war, so arguing that Israel winning that war changes the narrative is mute, when the world agreed on resolution 242 after the 6-day war.
But you should change your argument from. The Palestinians have never offered a 2-state plan, to they never offered one that you and Israel like, because the former is not true.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 12:18:06 PM
The theory is when the Romans kicked the Jews off their land, they renamed to people from Judea Philistines to insult the Jews. Palestinian is a derivative of this, which peaks volumes to their goals.
Yes Palestine was invented in the 20th century and has never been a formal place.
In 1967 the West Bank was part of Jordan. Gaza was part of Egypt. So they were Jordanian and Egyptian, not Palestinian.
The PLO was formed in 1964. A good time to have created Palestine would have been when the West Bank for part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. But, they were not very interested in creating Palestine until the lost those lands in 1967.
I'm interested in creating something completely different in the entire Middle East but I suppose I'm alone in this idea.
My teenaged daughter wants to start a rock and roll band. I will allow it only if she names it the Western Progressives.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 12:27:16 PM
I'm interested in creating something completely different in the entire Middle East but I suppose I'm alone in this idea.
Which is?
Quote from: JWags85 on November 04, 2023, 01:07:28 PM
Which is?
I don't want to upset anyone JWags but I don't like world threats.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 04, 2023, 01:07:28 PM
Which is?
Would involve a 6th point to the plan. And if Muggs told you, he'd have to introduce you to darkness.
Quote from: MU82 on November 04, 2023, 01:37:51 PM
Would involve a 6th point to the plan. And if Muggs told you, he'd have to introduce you to darkness.
I wouldn't do that to JWags or any Scooper.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 12:18:06 PM
The theory is when the Romans kicked the Jews off their land, they renamed to people from Judea Philistines to insult the Jews. Palestinian is a derivative of this, which peaks volumes to their goals.
Yes Palestine was invented in the 20th century and has never been a formal place.
In 1967 the West Bank was part of Jordan. Gaza was part of Egypt. So they were Jordanian and Egyptian, not Palestinian.
The PLO was formed in 1964. A good time to have created Palestine would have been when the West Bank for part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. But, they were not very interested in creating Palestine until the lost those lands in 1967.
While that may be 1 theory, it is a poorly informed one. Derivatives of the word Palestine date back to the 12th century BC, where in Egyptian it was Palest, in the ancient Hebrew bible Pelistim (not right characters), and in Ancient Greek Palaistine.
It described a part of Canaan.
It is an ancient name for an ancient people/region.
Chris Christie with a powerful speech at the Florida Freedom Summit today, saying America needs to stand with both Israel and Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDDAaEeMB8Q
The decidedly pro-Trump crowd at first tried to boo him off the stage, but he pushed through with what I felt was an outstanding speech:
Your anger against the truth is reprehensible. This type of pettiness is beneath the process of electing a president. If your arguments are so strong and mine are so bad, then just keep quiet. Let me make my awful arguments and then you can just reject them out of hand. But the problem is you fear the truth. The problem is you wanna shout down any voice that says anything different than what you wanna hear.
You can continue to do it and believe me, it doesn't bother me one bit. I'll tell you what does bother me: As we stand today and watch the atrocities that are going on in Israel, that's what we should spend our time talking about, and that's the place where I suggest some of our anger should be directed. We should make sure that every candidate running for president makes it very clear to every American and every citizen of the world that the United States will stand undivided with the State of Israel, and we will defeat terrorists all around the world. ...
When you look at what's happening in Europe, the last time the United States turned its back on a shooting war in Europe, we wound up there a few years later and we had to sacrifice the lives of 500,000 American soldiers to defeat Hitler and fascism in Europe. We need to stand today with Ukraine to defeat the Russians so that we don't have to ever send American men and fighting women back to Europe to defend freedom and democracy. That's what this country has always stood for, and that's what we need to stand for today. We need to stand with Ukraine and defeat the Russians.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 01:19:55 PM
I don't want to upset anyone JWags but I don't like world threats.
You've already upset people. The die is cast. #releasethe5points
Allow me to translate,
Nuke 'em
Nuke 'em
Nuke 'em
Nuke 'em
Nuke'em, aina?
Doc,
Do you think that plan will gain traction on scoop?
Quote from: Goose on November 04, 2023, 05:02:18 PM
Doc,
Do you think that plan will gain traction on scoop?
It's not going to gain traction in the real world, so why would it matter here?
Rico
I am open minded and I always like to read my fellow scooper thoughts.
Quote from: Goose on November 04, 2023, 05:09:47 PM
Rico
I am open minded and I always like to read my fellow scooper thoughts.
I'm a fan of comedy as well
Not a good day at the Israeli embassy in DC. We have an ugly, ugly, problem that's not going to get better while Israel does what she needs to do. Very sad. And pathetic. And embarrassing. Imagine if this was happening to any other minority group? It's just not right.
Quote from: MU82 on November 04, 2023, 04:20:33 PM
Chris Christie with a powerful speech at the Florida Freedom Summit today, saying America needs to stand with both Israel and Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDDAaEeMB8Q
The decidedly pro-Trump crowd at first tried to boo him off the stage, but he pushed through with what I felt was an outstanding speech:
Your anger against the truth is reprehensible. This type of pettiness is beneath the process of electing a president. If your arguments are so strong and mine are so bad, then just keep quiet. Let me make my awful arguments and then you can just reject them out of hand. But the problem is you fear the truth. The problem is you wanna shout down any voice that says anything different than what you wanna hear.
You can continue to do it and believe me, it doesn't bother me one bit. I'll tell you what does bother me: As we stand today and watch the atrocities that are going on in Israel, that's what we should spend our time talking about, and that's the place where I suggest some of our anger should be directed. We should make sure that every candidate running for president makes it very clear to every American and every citizen of the world that the United States will stand undivided with the State of Israel, and we will defeat terrorists all around the world. ...
When you look at what's happening in Europe, the last time the United States turned its back on a shooting war in Europe, we wound up there a few years later and we had to sacrifice the lives of 500,000 American soldiers to defeat Hitler and fascism in Europe. We need to stand today with Ukraine to defeat the Russians so that we don't have to ever send American men and fighting women back to Europe to defend freedom and democracy. That's what this country has always stood for, and that's what we need to stand for today. We need to stand with Ukraine and defeat the Russians.
christie is polling less than 3% that and lefties like you getting all stiff over him are all the more reason to chalk this one up as another one of your sorry rants...christie has about as much a chance to be relevant for the gop as a vegan in a butcher shop
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 05:26:59 PM
Not a good day at the Israeli embassy in DC. We have an ugly, ugly, problem that's not going to get better while Israel does what she needs to do. Very sad. And pathetic. And embarrassing. Imagine if this was happening to any other minority group? It's just not right.
i'm all with ya here muggs! hey, instead of a cease fire, why don't we just air drop a couple more pallets of cash, weapons and supplies into gaza for them.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 04, 2023, 05:41:55 PM
christie is polling less than 3% that and lefties like you getting all stiff over him are all the more reason to chalk this one up as another one of your sorry rants...christie has about as much a chance to be relevant for the gop as a vegan in a butcher shop
What Christie said isnt wrong though
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 04, 2023, 05:45:41 PM
What Christie said isnt wrong though
yes, but that's not why 80something posted what he did
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 04, 2023, 05:50:07 PM
yes, but that's not why 80something posted what he did
So, even though it's right and part of the discussion with regards to funding Israel and funding Ukraine who is fighting one of the entities supplying Israel enemies, it's wrong because why?
Quote from: Goose on November 04, 2023, 05:02:18 PM
Doc,
Do you think that plan will gain traction on scoop?
Yes, if there weren't so many here with mushy, brown, stinky matter between their ears, hey?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 04, 2023, 05:41:55 PM
christie is polling less than 3% that and lefties like you getting all stiff over him are all the more reason to chalk this one up as another one of your sorry rants...christie has about as much a chance to be relevant for the gop as a vegan in a butcher shop
What did I "rant" about in that post?
You're like the people at the Florida Freedom Summit who tried to cancel Christie.
Quote from: forgetful on November 04, 2023, 12:21:53 PM
You are welcome to call me "not a serious person," but it is simpler for me to simply say I was wrong about the actual UN resolution 242. What is true, is that every resolution since then, largely starting in 1976 that proposed 2-states solutions based on Resolution 242 were vetoed by the US.
My error.
For the rest, and in general. All the peace agreements were based on Resolution 242. That occurred after the 6-day war, so arguing that Israel winning that war changes the narrative is mute, when the world agreed on resolution 242 after the 6-day war.
But you should change your argument from. The Palestinians have never offered a 2-state plan, to they never offered one that you and Israel like, because the former is not true.
I actually think you are a serious person. Those comments were more directed at the idea that someone puts out a ton of facts, like you and me, one or two might be wrong. If you does not distract from the larger point ... so what! It does not mean EVERYTHING they say, or believe, is wrong. Hence not a serious person..
The only people that don't make mistakes are those that don't try to offer an opinion support with facts. Those that scream someone is not a serious person are gaslighting about themselves.
——
Ok, that said ....
The difference between us is really about what we THINK is happening in the Middle East. I do not think the Palestinians and the Israelis can never be compatible. The have two vastly different worldviews that cannot be reconciled.
It think I've explained why i think they cannot above.
I assume you do not agree. Why not? Why do you think these two groups can co-exist in a peaceful way?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 04, 2023, 06:21:01 PM
Yes, if there weren't so many here with mushy, brown, stinky matter between their ears, hey?
Still waiting for your condemnation of Tuckems, Marge, and Gosar.
Quote from: MU82 on November 04, 2023, 06:43:25 PM
What did I "rant" about in that post?
You're like the people at the Florida Freedom Summit who tried to cancel Christie.
essentially about every other one of your posts is a subliminal rant about the orange man in one form or another.
hey, hows about that insurrection at the people's house there today. makes the one you guys imagined look like playing a little footsie. blm was down there taking notes
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 04, 2023, 07:03:43 PM
essentially about every other one of your posts is a subliminal rant about the orange man in one form or another.
hey, hows about that insurrection at the people's house there today. makes the one you guys imagined look like playing a little footsie. blm was down there taking notes
9 out of 10
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 04, 2023, 05:45:41 PM
What Christie said isnt wrong though
Obligatory (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtHmw_OXsAIJNxS.jpg:large)
Quote from: forgetful on November 04, 2023, 03:18:55 PM
While that may be 1 theory, it is a poorly informed one. Derivatives of the word Palestine date back to the 12th century BC, where in Egyptian it was Palest, in the ancient Hebrew bible Pelistim (not right characters), and in Ancient Greek Palaistine.
It described a part of Canaan.
It is an ancient name for an ancient people/region.
I agree with this.
I laid out an accepted theory. So did you.
Point is their is no accepted fact on where the name came from, just theories,
Good profile of the big donor to Penn that seems to be leading the movement among all big donors everywhere to push back against antisemitism on campus.
—-
November 3, 2023
The Billionaire Donor Taking On His Alma Mater Over Antisemitism
Apollo CEO Marc Rowan wasn't vocal about social issues. Then Israel was attacked.
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/the-billionaire-donor-taking-on-his-alma-mater-over-antisemitism-2d1637cd
When Marc Rowan's father died while he was a student at the University of Pennsylvania and the family could no longer afford tuition, the school told him he could finish paying whenever he was able.
Rowan sent the university the money a few months after graduation, using his first bonus from his job as a junior investment banker at Drexel Burnham Lambert. Grateful for its generosity, he kept giving to Penn as he climbed to the pinnacle of Wall Street power. He donated $50 million to its Wharton school in 2018, the largest gift the business school had ever received at the time.
But after Hamas attacked Israel Oct. 7, Rowan, the chief executive of private-equity giant Apollo Global Management, went on television and said he is halting donations to his alma mater over its response to the conflict and antisemitism on campus. He is at the center of an alumni revolt against the school and has called for Penn's president and the chair of its board of trustees to step down.
Campaigning publicly for social issues is new for Rowan, who's better known for discussing the wonky ins-and-outs of finance. He runs a firm where top executives encourage sparring openly about business strategy in meetings, and now he's bringing that approach to the cloistered world of higher education.
What set off Rowan and other major donors was Penn's response to the violence in Israel. On Oct. 10, Penn President Liz Magill called the assault "horrific" but didn't explicitly condemn Hamas.
The donors had already been upset about what they saw as growing antisemitism on campus and the school's response to it.
"I don't think the intent was for it to be forceful," Rowan says of the response to the attacks. "I don't think the university gives a crap, to be candid."
On Oct. 15, Magill issued a follow-up statement condemning Hamas. On Wednesday, she announced new plans to combat antisemitism on campus.
Rowan, 61, spent much of his childhood in Long Island, N.Y. His father was in the auto-leasing business. His grandfather, Emanuel Stein, was born on New York's Lower East Side and spent decades as an economics professor at New York University, including a period as chairman of the department. He was known to quote Talmudic passages every now and then to help make a point. Stein's daughter, Rowan's mother Barbara, was a trained concert pianist. She was "the heart and soul of her family" and "all benefited from her love of Jewish heritage and culture," her 2014 obituary said.
The family moved to Hollywood, Fla., when Rowan was in high school. He graduated as valedictorian of his class at a local public high school in 1980 and went on to Wharton, one of the country's elite business programs. He relied on grants, student loans and jobs to help pay for school.
Rowan tapped into his entrepreneurial energy early on. A July 1981 advertisement in the school newspaper said students and parents interested in discounted phone calls should write to him for more information. He earned both his bachelor's and M.B.A. from the school.
"I can't help but love a place that I showed up with hair down to my shoulders and I ended up with a job," Rowan said at a January Goldman Sachs event.
Rowan's first job was in the mergers and acquisitions department at Drexel. After the firm collapsed in 1990, he teamed up with other former Drexel employees at Apollo, which originally put investors' money to work in the rough-and-tumble world of distressed investments. Appetite for such "alternative" investments boomed in the decades that followed, making co-founders Rowan, Leon Black and Josh Harris billionaires.
The firm developed a reputation for being particularly cutthroat in an industry known for its aggressive tactics with deals like an investment in Caesars Entertainment that left the casino operator saddled with an insurmountable debt load.
Harris was also a Wharton graduate and Apollo hired heavily from the school. Alumni made up about 40% or 50% of the firm's employees, Rowan said in a 2009 podcast.
Longtime CEO Black stepped down in 2021 following a review of his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Rowan, who lives in Greenwich, Conn., won the top job.
Married with four children, Rowan started focusing more on philanthropy in his 50s. He joined Penn's board of trustees in 2016. He also chairs an organization that helps fund a network of schools in Israel called Darca schools. Earlier this year, Rowan left the Penn board when he became chair of the UJA-Federation of New York, but remained chair of Wharton's board of advisers.
Universities rely on big donors for key funding, but they are generally expected to stay out of day-to-day operations.
Professor Kent Smetters turned to Rowan when he was looking for a donor to back a project that would use complex data to provide a nonpartisan analysis of the federal budget.
"He's the perfect funder," Smetters said. "He's a data guy like me, but he's also hands off."
When Smetters brought a group of about 40 students to Washington, D.C., last year, Rowan changed his schedule to make time to meet with them for over an hour at a local restaurant.
Rowan found that the Penn board of trustees had a different culture than Apollo. "In all the years I was a trustee, we never had a debate, we never had a discussion, we never made a hard decision," he says.
Andy Rachleff, a venture capitalist and 18-year Penn trustee, said Rowan "is attempting to strong arm the university using the classic Apollo playbook and we are not going to succumb to these tactics even if it results in lower donations. The soul of the university is not for sale."
Earlier this year, Rowan and other prominent alumni learned about a Palestinian literary festival scheduled to be held on campus in September. Cosmetics tycoon Ronald Lauder, who has a university degree program named after him, traveled to Philadelphia to relay his concerns to Magill about speakers at the event espousing antisemitic views. In two follow-up calls, he urged her to cancel the festival.
Rowan, Lauder, investor Ross Stevens and other alumni wrote an open letter to Magill expressing concerns about the festival's content. Eventually, over 4,000 others signed the letter.
Top school officials released a statement condemning antisemitism ahead of the literary festival.
Board of Trustees Chair Scott Bok suggested that Rowan and three trustees who signed the open letter step down from their roles, Rowan says. Bok said he didn't try to force anyone to resign.
Immediately after the Hamas attacks, Rowan started a fundraising campaign for the Darca schools. The push raised millions of dollars for emergency financial help for displaced students and laptops for those who now need to attend school remotely. Nearly 40 graduates and students were killed by Hamas, said Gil Pereg, CEO of the schools.
Rowan watched President Magill post on Instagram about her dog. Three days after the attacks, she said: "We are devastated by the horrific assault on Israel by Hamas that targeted civilians and the taking of hostages over the weekend."
Rowan fired off an op-ed to the Penn school newspaper. He wrote that he regretted not doing more to change the direction of the school as a trustee. The paper didn't publish it immediately, so he went on CNBC.
"Microaggressions are condemned with extreme moral outrage and yet violence, particularly violence against Jews, antisemitism, seems to have found a place of tolerance on the campus," Rowan said on the air.
"It was like a little spark in the forest that lights a wildfire," says Penn alum Eric Zinterhofer, a founder of buyout firm Searchlight Capital Partners and Lauder's son-in-law. "There was so much frustration already."
Other major Penn donors including Jon Huntsman Jr., Lauder and Law & Order creator Dick Wolf have announced plans to halt or reconsider donations over the issue.
Rowan's email address started circulating in alumni groups. He began getting copied on 50 to 100 messages a day to the administration from people from all walks of life. Rowan is keeping close track of the people he has heard from and, including the signers of the open letter, says they now number around 7,000.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 05:26:59 PM
Not a good day at the Israeli embassy in DC. We have an ugly, ugly, problem that's not going to get better while Israel does what she needs to do. Very sad. And pathetic. And embarrassing. Imagine if this was happening to any other minority group? It's just not right.
This is pure antisemitism hate. This is pro-hamas
Calls for violence against Jews rock DC amid massive pro-Palestinian protest
The antisemitic graffiti calling for 'Death to Israel' was discovered as thousands of Pro-Palestinian protesters descended on Washington, D.C.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/calls-violence-against-jews-rock-dc-amid-massive-pro-palestinian-protest
https://www.standwithus.com/_files/ugd/46fc49_02c57b3496984cd4ab30fc4c06c5c588.pdf
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 04, 2023, 07:03:43 PM
essentially about every other one of your posts is a subliminal rant about the orange man in one form or another.
hey, hows about that insurrection at the people's house there today. makes the one you guys imagined look like playing a little footsie. blm was down there taking notes
The 1,100 people charged for crimes on Jan 6th are going to be thrilled to know it was all imagined.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 04, 2023, 07:03:43 PM
hey, hows about that insurrection at the people's house there today. makes the one you guys imagined look like playing a little footsie. blm was down there taking notes
The last time something like this happened (hint almost 3 years ago), hundreds of national guard troops were called to DC
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pro-palestinian-protesters-seen-shaking-white-house-gate-vandalized-red-paint-joe-biden
A White House fence was vandalized Saturday night with red paint as pro-Palestinian protesters shook the gate to one entrance to the executive mansion as some chanted F--k Joe Biden, the New York Post reported.
——-
And the sad thing is it might work to get Biden to abandon Israel, as his Islamaphobia commission is not doing the trick.
Democrats are believing this narrative.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democratic-house-member-accuses-biden-of-supporting-palestinian-genocide/ar-AA1jmosT
Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) accused President Biden of supporting the "genocide" of Palestinians amid Israel's war with Hamas in Gaza, saying that Americans will remember his actions when he's up for reelection in 2024.
Lefties in panic (not National Review)
Biden's 2024 team roiled by Israel-Hamas war
https://www.axios.com/2023/11/04/biden-2024-team-israel-hamas-war-election-dnc
Part of President Biden's political team is in turmoil over the Israel-Hamas war, as some aides see the White House as abetting an immoral attack on Palestinians — while others believe Biden is showing "moral clarity" in protecting Israel from terrorists.
—————
If Biden abandons Israel (by calling for a cease fire, which is telling them to give up and not try to get rid of Hamas anymore), and Israel feels isolated, they will go scorched earth as they see it as a fight for their survival. They cannot lose this fight. They cannot show weakness. They cannot stop.
And see the profile above of the billionaire donors to Universities, see the letter sent to over 100 law school deans a few pages back I posted .... If Biden abandons Israel, and they go scorched earth, the considered might of the Jewish community in the US will be thrown behind the Orange Man, and that will matter.
Remember Ivanka is Jewish (converted for Jared), and Trump's grandchildren are Jewish, Trump moved the US Embassy to Jerseluem (which is in the West Bank) and tore up the Iran Nuclear deal.
While some sociopaths here will violently disagree, in Tel Aviv and the board room where wealthy Jewish Americans reside, all view the Orange Man as the most pro-Israel President ever. And while they don't like him, if this is fight for the survival of Israel, nothing else will matter to rich Jewish Americans.
All other issues will be pushed aside for them, they will use their considerable might, and huge sums of money to get a pro-Isreal President in the White House ASAP.
Will Biden cave to the progressives and abandon Israel?
I honestly do not know, will give it 50/50.
BOTUS is a dead man walking. He's talking out of both sides of his ass. But, he's neither smart enough, nor clever enough to pull it off, even with BO calling the shots.
Notice how abortion has now been taken off the the table as the next election hot button, hey?
Sorry. Abandoning Israel and calling for a cease fire are not the same thing. There will eventually be a cease fire.
Then, Israel - with the help of the US and other Allies - needs to carry out a purge of all levels of Hamas leadership just like Mossad did after the Olympic murders.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 04, 2023, 08:41:45 PM
BOTUS is a dead man walking. He's talking out of both sides of his ass. But, he's neither smart enough, nor clever enough to pull it off, even with BO calling the shots.
Notice how abortion has now been taken off the the table as the next election hot button, hey?
Thanks for your daily dose of ignorance.
Stick to 'Crean sucks'. It shows much more insight.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 04, 2023, 07:03:43 PM
essentially about every other one of your posts is a subliminal rant about the orange man in one form or another.
hey, hows about that insurrection at the people's house there today. makes the one you guys imagined look like playing a little footsie. blm was down there taking notes
So, to answer my question, nothing in my post was a "rant. Thanks.
You are a deeply ill person. I truly, truly feel sorry for you.
Quote from: Jockey on November 04, 2023, 08:42:27 PM
Sorry. Abandoning Israel and calling for a cease fire are not the same thing. There will eventually be a cease fire.
Then, Israel - with the help of the US and other Allies - needs to carry out a purge of all levels of Hamas leadership just like Mossad did after the Olympic murders.
You're premise is 💯 per cent wrong, hey?
Quote from: Jockey on November 04, 2023, 08:42:27 PM
Sorry. Abandoning Israel and calling for a cease fire are not the same thing. There will eventually be a cease fire.
Then, Israel - with the help of the US and other Allies - needs to carry out a purge of all levels of Hamas leadership just like Mossad did after the Olympic murders.
Eventually? Yeah, pretty safe bet the war won't go on forever. Also a pretty safe bet that Israel has no appetite for one just yet. The president had strong support in both Muslim and Jewish communities so he has to straddle the fence a bit with elections only a year away. The Israelis don't view that as their problem.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 08:06:58 PM
This is pure antisemitism hate. This is pro-hamas
Calls for violence against Jews rock DC amid massive pro-Palestinian protest
The antisemitic graffiti calling for 'Death to Israel' was discovered as thousands of Pro-Palestinian protesters descended on Washington, D.C.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/calls-violence-against-jews-rock-dc-amid-massive-pro-palestinian-protest
This is beyond awful. Everyone here should be outraged by this despicable display here and throughout Europe. What is wrong with you people?? If anything there should be far LESS antisemitism now, not more. Why aren't most of you condemning these "protests," and the behavior of these monumental asshats? Where is the screaming from the rooftops from leaders around the world about this hatred?
Instead we have asinine takes that Israel should "pause"/have a cease-fire or that they are engaging in genocide. Uh.....no. Not true and not happening. Let them defend their country, get as many of these scumfks as possible, and support them 100%. Support our Jewish communities fully here in the United States. There's a ton that needs to be done before they are even close to any discussions of a cease-fire or the future of Gaza.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 04, 2023, 06:54:44 PM
I actually think you are a serious person. Those comments were more directed at the idea that someone puts out a ton of facts, like you and me, one or two might be wrong. If you does not distract from the larger point ... so what! It does not mean EVERYTHING they say, or believe, is wrong. Hence not a serious person..
The only people that don't make mistakes are those that don't try to offer an opinion support with facts. Those that scream someone is not a serious person are gaslighting about themselves.
——
Ok, that said ....
The difference between us is really about what we THINK is happening in the Middle East. I do not think the Palestinians and the Israelis can never be compatible. The have two vastly different worldviews that cannot be reconciled.
It think I've explained why i think they cannot above.
I assume you do not agree. Why not? Why do you think these two groups can co-exist in a peaceful way?
Appreciate the pleasant tone/sentiment.
Regarding the 2nd part. I do think they can be compatible, but it will take time. I think UN supervision of parts of the region with a 2-state solution is necessary. The UN can suppress Palestinian extremists, while making sure no settlements are made. That can go a long way to creating trust, and a vision for the people of a peaceful existence.
The first step is to get the extremists on both side out of the decision making positions.
Will it work, I'm hopeful, but I'm certain the alternatives are not viable. I've been worried about war spreading through the region with the current situation, but things could blow up huge and it would be bad for everyone.
Let's look at one alternative. Israel expels residents of Gaza to Egypt. That would create momentary peace, but you would have uproar throughout the Islamic community. That would create more extremists, which at first governments like Egypt/Saudi Arabia/Turkey/Jordan may be able to quell, but eventually if nothing is done about the Palestinian situation, they will overthrow their governments, and install ones that are more militaristic towards Israel. Eventually resulting in widespread war throughout the Middle East. Israel very likely might win that war, but it would just create another cycle...eventually there will be one they can't win.
Another alternative...the attack Lebanon and Iran now angle that Muggsy has proposed. This would result in immediate widespread war, possibly bringing in Nato allies (Turkey), as well as US allies Saudi Arabia. One might want to say that Saudi Arabia would not join a war on the side of Iran. But when it comes to Palestine, there is widespread unity throughout the Islamic community that Palestine should be free. A full scale attack by Israel and the US on Iran, Lebanon+Syria, maybe Jordan, in the backdrop of what is going on in Gaza very easily could look like a full scale attack on Islam, which would have the populations calling for action, and if they don't act, possibly trying to overthrow their governments.
If the UN does not step in and make sure that there is a two state solution, the long term outcomes almost assuredly is widespread death and destruction, including in Israel.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 10:00:37 PM
This is beyond awful. Everyone here should be outraged by this despicable display here and throughout Europe. What is wrong with you people?? If anything there should be far LESS antisemitism now, not more. Why aren't most of you condemning these "protests," and the behavior of these monumental asshats? Where is the screaming from the rooftops from leaders around the world about this hatred?
Instead we have asinine takes that Israel should "pause"/have a cease-fire or that they are engaging in genocide. Uh.....no. Not true and not happening. Let them defend their country, get as many of these scumfks as possible, and support them 100%. Support our Jewish communities fully here in the United States. There's a ton that needs to be done before they are even close to any discussions of a cease-fire or the future of Gaza.
Not sure who "you people" are, but I obviously strongly condemn this sh!t.
Anti-Semitism in the U.S. has been bad as long as I've been alive. It was bad in Charlottesville, when very fine people carried torches and chanted, "Jews will not replace us!" It was bad 2 years ago when Marjorie Taylor Greene said wildfires were caused by Jewish Space Lasers. It was bad a few months ago, when the previous president dined with Nick Fuentes and Kanye West. It was bad 60 years ago and 30 years ago and 10 years ago and 1 year ago. And yes, it's really raging now because these dopes turn to hate and even violence to try to make their points. One thing history has taught us for millennia: It's always easy to blame the Jews.
Israel needs to eliminate Hamas, period. It is war, and innocents will die, as they always do in times of war.
Having said all of that, reasonable people can disagree on some things in a forum like this. I'm not going to call everybody who disagrees with me an anti-Semite. That would be both inaccurate and unproductive.
Nor am I going to pretend I have all the answers, or a workable plan of any particular number of points. Because I don't. And neither do you.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 04, 2023, 10:00:37 PM
This is beyond awful. Everyone here should be outraged by this despicable display here and throughout Europe. What is wrong with you people?? If anything there should be far LESS antisemitism now, not more. Why aren't most of you condemning these "protests," and the behavior of these monumental asshats? Where is the screaming from the rooftops from leaders around the world about this hatred?
Instead we have asinine takes that Israel should "pause"/have a cease-fire or that they are engaging in genocide. Uh.....no. Not true and not happening. Let them defend their country, get as many of these scumfks as possible, and support them 100%. Support our Jewish communities fully here in the United States. There's a ton that needs to be done before they are even close to any discussions of a cease-fire or the future of Gaza.
I do condemn that graffiti (not free speech) as well as anyone who has expressed similar sentiments (free speech). I don't condemn anyone who uses their right to peacefully demonstrate in support of either Israel or Palestine (not Hamas, I strongly condemn anyone who expresses support for Hamas or their actions) and I definitely don't condemn those who peacefully demonstrate in support of peace. I don't know that peace is possible or a reasonable expectation at this point in time, but I strongly believe that it must be the end goal.
This is fascinating from a not so distant past, of how American politics were influencing and received in the region compared to now. Completely flip flopped.
https://x.com/vptevo/status/1719771298014859518?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Since then United States has pretty much adopted the AIPAC rhetoric for the issue (right or wrong, not the point of this observation) that the U.S. should not only support Israel, but that this support be an unquestioned bipartisan matter.
Where I begin to have more difficulty though, is that we are supposed as citizens accept as just part of life that the United States must send billions of dollars in aid to one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, every single year, but does not DARE ask for anything in return.
Maybe someone smarter than me here can correct any falsehoods here.
Anyway, it is remarkable how far a lobbying dollar can go in regards to national bipartisan policy. If in 30 years it has changed so extensively across the entire political spectrum.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 04, 2023, 11:22:45 PM
I do condemn that graffiti (not free speech) as well as anyone who has expressed similar sentiments (free speech). I don't condemn anyone who uses their right to peacefully demonstrate in support of either Israel or Palestine (not Hamas, I strongly condemn anyone who expresses support for Hamas or their actions) and I definitely don't condemn those who peacefully demonstrate in support of peace. I don't know that peace is possible or a reasonable expectation at this point in time, but I strongly believe that it must be the end goal.
How do you separate pro-Palestinian from pro-Hamas in these protests? They all chant "from the river to the sea" and other anti-Israel pro-Hames slogans. Speakers say the same.
They are pro-Hamas which is why the Jewish community is scared, upset and pushing back in ending donations to Universities.
On Saturday, Bill Ackman sent a long letter to Claudine Gay, the President of Harvard. He posted it here.
https://x.com/billackman/status/1720987581549080965?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
If you think this is purely about the first amendment, read this letter. He details the physical assaults and verbal abuse Jewish students are constantly under at Harvard. He did not call on Gay to resign, largely because she has only been their four months. But it reads as a final warning, and changes, suspensions and even explosions better commence immediately.
Ackman's voice on this issue matters. He lead the boycott of getting jobs if you are pro-Hamas. He's a big donor to the school and he already had a personal relationship with most, if not all, the trustees before October 7.
Harvard Students are not alone. Cornell canceled classes Friday, see the Marc Rowan profile above about Penn, Columbia is the same.
It is happening at every university in the country. As a Midwest Jesuit university, MUs Jewish population is very small. But assume they feel the same, have endured the same.
Quote from: Jockey on November 04, 2023, 08:42:27 PM
Sorry. Abandoning Israel and calling for a cease fire are not the same thing. There will eventually be a cease fire.
Then, Israel - with the help of the US and other Allies - needs to carry out a purge of all levels of Hamas leadership just like Mossad did after the Olympic murders.
Munich was a terrorist attack on foreign soil by the Black September group 51 years ago. October 7 was the government of a neighboring foreign country invading Israel and killing over 1,400 and taking 230 hostages.
Their response was exactly the same to both.
Israel slaughtered every known member of Black September as quickly as possible, and while they made every effort to prevent civilian casualties in this effort, they did not let the potential of civilian casualties stop them.
They are doing the same in Gaza right now.
——
Implied in your post is a belief that this was not a foreign invasion representing a threat to the existence of Israel. Implied in your post is this should be viewed as a glorified police action against a small set of criminals and nothing more.
Your implication is not shared by Israel, the US government and most of the American public.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 04:31:34 AM
On Saturday, Bill Ackman sent a long letter to Claudine Gay, the President of Harvard. He posted it here.
https://x.com/billackman/status/1720987581549080965?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
If you think this is purely about the first amendment, read this letter. He details the physical assaults and verbal abuse Jewish students are constantly under at Harvard. He did not call on Gay to resign, largely because she has only been their four months. But it reads as a final warning, and changes, suspensions and even explosions better commence immediately.
Ackman's voice on this issue matters. He lead the boycott of getting jobs if you are pro-Hamas. He's a big donor to the school and he already had a personal relationship with most, if not all, the trustees before October 7.
Harvard Students are not alone. Cornell canceled classes Friday, see the Marc Rowan profile above about Penn, Columbia is the same.
It is happening at every university in the country. As a Midwest Jesuit university, MUs Jewish population is very small. But assume they feel the same, have endured the same.
"Every university in the country?" Cmon... Again, you are making the same mistake you always do because Ivy League schools do not represent American higher education in general.
At most schools, very little is happening. Few or lightly attended protests - if any. Students, including Muslims and Jews, are going to class, listening to their professors teach the subject matter, and doing other stuff socially. Pretty sure this describes Marquette students too.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 05, 2023, 12:04:09 AM
This is fascinating from a not so distant past, of how American politics were influencing and received in the region compared to now. Completely flip flopped.
https://x.com/vptevo/status/1719771298014859518?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Since then United States has pretty much adopted the AIPAC rhetoric for the issue (right or wrong, not the point of this observation) that the U.S. should not only support Israel, but that this support be an unquestioned bipartisan matter.
Where I begin to have more difficulty though, is that we are supposed as citizens accept as just part of life that the United States must send billions of dollars in aid to one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, every single year, but does not DARE ask for anything in return.
Maybe someone smarter than me here can correct any falsehoods here.
Anyway, it is remarkable how far a lobbying dollar can go in regards to national bipartisan policy. If in 30 years it has changed so extensively across the entire political spectrum.
Their has been a giant phase shift in politics in the last generation.
In 2001, the right, lead by the neoconservatives, pushed for war. It was the left in opposition.
Today it is the progressives pushing for war in Ukraine and the party of the neoconservatives becoming ambivalent.
In 2012 it was Barack Obama famously mocked Mitt Romney about his hawkish views on Russia by saying, "the 80s called, they want their foreign policy back."
That 1980s Russian policy in now the policy of the left.
30 or 40 years ago, the democrat party was the home of the working class (think populist party). The Republican Party was run by the wealthy (think country club, chamber of commerce types).
Today the party of the populist is the Republican Party and the party run by the wealthy is the Democrat party (academics and celebrities).
——
It is because of these phase shifts that left-right might no longer apply.
See Bill Maher. As a traditional liberal that has not changed his views at all, his audience is switching from progressives to conservatives.
Ditto Matt Taibbi and Glen Greenwall.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 04:50:55 AM
Munich was a terrorist attack on foreign soil by the Black September group 51 years ago. October 7 was the government of a neighboring foreign country invading Israel and killing over 1,400 and taking 230 hostages.
Their response was exactly the same to both.
Israel slaughtered every known member of Black September as quickly as possible, and while they made every effort to prevent civilian casualties in this effort, they did not let the potential of civilian casualties stop them.
They are doing the same in Gaza right now.
Actually that's not accurate at all. The response to 1972 lasted for more than a decade, and was largely targeted to people Mossad thought were behind the acts. (Though they made mistakes along the way.) But did not kill nearly as many civilians as have died in Gaza.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 04:50:55 AM
Implied in your post is a belief that this was not a foreign invasion representing a threat to the existence of Israel.
It's was a threat to the existence of Israel. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a response.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 05:15:33 AM
In 2001, the right, lead by the neoconservatives, pushed for war. It was the left in opposition.
Today it is the progressives pushing for war in Ukraine and the party of the neoconservatives becoming ambivalent.
OMG you are hilarious. "Progressives" are not "pushing for war in Ukraine." War exists in Ukraine because Russia invaded them!!
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 05:04:52 AM
"Every university in the country?" Cmon... Again, you are making the same mistake you always do because Ivy League schools do not represent American higher education in general.
At most schools, very little is happening. Few or lightly attended protests - if any. Students, including Muslims and Jews, are going to class, listening to their professors teach the subject matter, and doing other stuff socially. Pretty sure this describes Marquette students too.
The ivies are the preferred school of the northeast wealthy. They have among the highest percentage of Jewish students outside of Jewish oriented universities like Yeshiva.
So, it is natural they are experiencing it the worst. So don't mistake lower Jewish populations elsewhere as it is not happening.
—-
But your larger point is correct, the vast majority of college students support Israel, even at the ivies. It is a loud and too often violent minority that is terrorizing Jewish students. University administrators is doing terrible job of protecting them.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 05:23:45 AM
OMG you are hilarious. "Progressives" are not "pushing for war in Ukraine." War exists in Ukraine because Russia invaded them!!
Tautology
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 04:31:34 AM
On Saturday, Bill Ackman sent a long letter to Claudine Gay, the President of Harvard. He posted it here.
https://x.com/billackman/status/1720987581549080965?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
If you think this is purely about the first amendment, read this letter. He details the physical assaults and verbal abuse Jewish students are constantly under at Harvard. He did not call on Gay to resign, largely because she has only been their four months. But it reads as a final warning, and changes, suspensions and even explosions better commence immediately.
Ackman's voice on this issue matters. He lead the boycott of getting jobs if you are pro-Hamas. He's a big donor to the school and he already had a personal relationship with most, if not all, the trustees before October 7.
Harvard Students are not alone. Cornell canceled classes Friday, see the Marc Rowan profile above about Penn, Columbia is the same.
It is happening at every university in the country. As a Midwest Jesuit university, MUs Jewish population is very small. But assume they feel the same, have endured the same.
Bravo for Ackman! Gotta push back, hey?
Quote from: Jockey on November 04, 2023, 08:44:47 PM
Thanks for your daily dose of ignorance.
Stick to 'Crean sucks'. It shows much more insight.
Calling it ignorance is a bit of a misclassification IMO. Truly it is an example of repeated propaganda having the effect of complete brainwashing, which weak and feeble minds are extremely susceptible to.
The mentally enfeebled dentists now believe in a reality where J6 was purely imaginary and Barack Obama is running the White House. That goes way beyond simple ignorance.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 05:36:20 AM
Tautology
Ummmm, no. You often seem to think words mean things other than they really do.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 05:23:45 AM
OMG you are hilarious. "Progressives" are not "pushing for war in Ukraine." War exists in Ukraine because Russia invaded them!!
Putin is the bad guy there. The same Putin who meets.with representatives of Iran and Hamas in the last couple weeks. Putin the anti-Semite.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 05:23:45 AM
OMG you are hilarious. "Progressives" are not "pushing for war in Ukraine." War exists in Ukraine because Russia invaded them!!
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 (Crimea) and Obama did not commit to war.
Point is their has been a phase shift, the left is now the right and the right is now the left.
Quote from: tower912 on November 05, 2023, 06:47:27 AM
Putin is the bad guy there. The same Putin who meets.with representatives of Iran and Hamas in the last couple weeks. Putin the anti-Semite.
Exactly. Putin and Iran are allies. The war in Ukraine and the war is Israel are branches off the same tree.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 05:19:07 AM
Actually that's not accurate at all. The response to 1972 lasted for more than a decade, and was largely targeted to people Mossad thought were behind the acts. (Though they made mistakes along the way.) But did not kill nearly as many civilians as have died in Gaza.
It's was a threat to the existence of Israel. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a response.
And 1972 was an event by people with no borders that took years to identify. It was also an event that killed 15.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 07:00:54 AM
And 1972 was an event by people with no borders that took years to identify. It was also an event that killed 15.
Thank you for the history lesson. It neither supports your point, nor refutes mine, but it's a nice basic fact. And that's nice.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 07:03:09 AM
Thank you for the history lesson. It neither supports your point, nor refutes mine, but it's a nice basic fact. And that's nice.
If their was some place to invade that was behind this event, they would have. Black September did not claim to be the government of any country.
——
What is your point? That Israel withdraw and spent a decade on quiet assignation? You really think this would be an appropriate deterrence.
Why do you offer nothing but potshots and dissembling? You argue narrow point's with your opinion presented as facts. Because your opinion is a fact in your mind and you cannot tell the difference.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 06:54:51 AM
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 (Crimea) and Obama did not commit to war.
That you would compare Crimea to what's happening now in Ukraine shows a real lack of understanding.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 07:11:11 AM
What is your point?
My point is that you finally have your user name accurate. You aren't a serious person no matter how hard you try. You have made three flat out false statements in just the last few hours.
Israel's current reaction is not at all "exactly the same" to their reaction to Munich. In fact it is very different.
Antisemitic actions are not happening "at every university in the country."
Progressives are not "pushing for a war in Ukraine."
If your arguments were strong, they wouldn't need your exaggerations and lies to support them. But they aren't strong. You are prone to over-statement and lack significant details and nuance.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 07:11:11 AM
Why do you offer nothing but potshots and dissembling?
Nope. I have stated very clearly why think is happening and why Israel's reaction to this is so important. No exaggeration. No American culture war implications.
You can't refute this without exaggeration because your arguments are weak on their own.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 05:15:33 AM
Their has been a giant phase shift in politics in the last generation.
In 2001, the right, lead by the neoconservatives, pushed for war. It was the left in opposition.
Today it is the progressives pushing for war in Ukraine and the party of the neoconservatives becoming ambivalent.
In 2012 it was Barack Obama famously mocked Mitt Romney about his hawkish views on Russia by saying, "the 80s called, they want their foreign policy back."
That 1980s Russian policy in now the policy of the left.
30 or 40 years ago, the democrat party was the home of the working class (think populist party). The Republican Party was run by the wealthy (think country club, chamber of commerce types).
Today the party of the populist is the Republican Party and the party run by the wealthy is the Democrat party (academics and celebrities).
——
It is because of these phase shifts that left-right might no longer apply.
See Bill Maher. As a traditional liberal that has not changed his views at all, his audience is switching from progressives to conservatives.
Ditto Matt Taibbi and Glen Greenwall.
There are quite a few misstatements and over-generalizations here.
As usual, you make some good points overall but undermine them by passing off your opinions as "facts" that aren't factual.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 07:20:34 AM
My point is that you finally have your user name accurate. You aren't a serious person no matter how hard you try. You have made three flat out false statements in just the last few hours.
To repeat, you wrote:
"Made three flat out false statements in just the last few hours."
I made three opinions, and since you cannot tell the difference between facts and opinions, you presented you opposing opinion as if they are acceptable and measurable facts.
Here is more on my opinion ...
Isrel killed those responsible for Munich. Isreal is killing those responsible for October 7. Their response is exactly the same. This is an opinion.
Regarding every campus. Tomorrow night Ben Shapiro scheduled to speak in Madison. Can't wait to see the respectful and peaceful protests that every Jewish student on campus will not consider threatening in any way. I'm sure no security will be needed for this peaceful protest. Or do you worry the Jewish protests will require security?
But yes, this is only happening on four or five campuses and nowhere else. This is an opinion.
Which party wants increased funding for Ukraine and which party is hesitant to pass it (I say hesitant as it is still under consideration). This is probably more of a fact, but it is also an opinion.
—-
We all understand your opinion, and you think it is the only way to correctly view things, so to think it a correct fact.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 04:31:34 AM
On Saturday, Bill Ackman sent a long letter to Claudine Gay, the President of Harvard. He posted it here.
https://x.com/billackman/status/1720987581549080965?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
If you think this is purely about the first amendment, read this letter. He details the physical assaults and verbal abuse Jewish students are constantly under at Harvard. He did not call on Gay to resign, largely because she has only been their four months. But it reads as a final warning, and changes, suspensions and even explosions better commence immediately.
Ackman's voice on this issue matters. He lead the boycott of getting jobs if you are pro-Hamas. He's a big donor to the school and he already had a personal relationship with most, if not all, the trustees before October 7.
Harvard Students are not alone. Cornell canceled classes Friday, see the Marc Rowan profile above about Penn, Columbia is the same.
It is happening at every university in the country. As a Midwest Jesuit university, MUs Jewish population is very small. But assume they feel the same, have endured the same.
Sigh. No Douchey, the letter does not "detail the physical assaults and verbal abuse Jewish students are constantly under at Harvard." It details some examples of "verbal abuse" but all the examples he lists are examples of free speech. The letter then mentions "physical intimidation" (but doesn't explain what he means by that), that students have been spat on (this would be a physical assault that the university should follow up, but again he doesn't detail any examples) and mentions one physical assault caught on video (Presumably the one you posted here earlier which again, i didn't see any clear visual confirmation of physical assault. I invited you to point out the timemarker where that clear visual occurred but you never responded. Ackman claims there are muktiple videos. If that's true, I've never seen them and maybe they contain that clear visual).
If you can give me some specific examples of where a harvard (or any university) student or employee has physical assaulted or engaged in unprotected speech against a jewish/israeli student and the university has done nothing, id be happy to condemn that university. But Id also remind you that student disciplinary records are protected by federal privacy laws. Students accused of these things also have due process rights (that were recently strengthened by the Trump administration) that make investigations and disciplinary processes typically take months to conclude. Ackman is asking for the university to violate students free speech and due process rights (though he doesnt call for "explosions" as you put it).
One thing I will say about Ackmans letter, if what he says about the presidents communication regarding Harvards commitment to end anti-semitism only being given to a small group of Jewish students/alums and not the whole university (I haven't looked into it to see if it's true) that's misstep and she should be criticized for that. Same about his claims about Haravards DEIB statement/office not including support for students of minoritzed religions.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 05, 2023, 07:45:58 AM
Sigh. No Douchey, the letter does not "detail the physical assaults and verbal abuse Jewish students are constantly under at Harvard." It details some examples of "verbal abuse" but all the examples he lists are examples of free speech. The letter then mentions "physical intimidation" (but doesn't explain what he means by that), that students have been spat on (this would be a physical assault that the university should follow up, but again he doesn't detail any examples) and mentions one physical assault caught on video (Presumably the one you posted here earlier which again, i didn't see any clear visual confirmation of physical assault. I invited you to point out the timemarker where that clear visual occurred but you never responded. Ackman claims there are muktiple videos. If that's true, I've never seen them and maybe they contain that clear visual).
If you can give me some specific examples of where a harvard (or any university) student or employee has physical assaulted or engaged in unprotected speech against a jewish/israeli student and the university has done nothing, id be happy to condemn that university. But Id also remind you that student disciplinary records are protected by federal privacy laws. Students accused of these things also have due process rights (that were recently strengthened by the Trump administration) that make investigations and disciplinary processes typically take months to conclude. Ackman is asking for the university to violate students free speech and due process rights (though he doesnt call for "explosions" as you put it).
One thing I will say about Ackmans letter, if what he says about the presidents communication regarding Harvards commitment to end anti-semitism only being given to a small group of Jewish students/alums and not the whole university (I haven't looked into it to see if it's true) that's misstep and she should be criticized for that. Same about his claims about Haravards DEIB statement/office not including support for students of minoritzed religions.
You expected the letter to give date, times and physical evidence of assaults? Or are you accusing Ackman, or the kids he talked to of being liars?
It is up to Harvard to address this issues and they have not. To date they have kept quiet on all these matters.
His letter is asking them to address these issues.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 05:19:07 AM
It's was a threat to the existence of Israel. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a response.
You argue yourself in circles, presenting opinions as facts and confusing the two.
So which is it? Above or below?
Also does your current
opinion fact still mean they should only "severely weaken" Hamas. That reads as they should still be in charge of Gaza, and given an acceptable number of Jews they can kill every year. 1400 too many, 50 to 100, acceptable.
Look forward to your dissembling.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 22, 2023, 11:49:37 AM
No this isn't a "war for the existance of a race of people." That's hyperbolic nonsense. I also never said that Israel should "calm down." That's just silly. Of course they need to severely weaken Hamas in response.
Quote from: MU82 on November 05, 2023, 07:28:09 AM
There are quite a few misstatements and over-generalizations here.
As usual, you make some good points overall but undermine them by passing off your opinions as "facts" that aren't factual.
You say I make good points. I assume that means you generally agree that the left and right views have phase shifted.
But you feel a need to dissemble to what purpose? To then disagree? Or, to make yourself sound smart?
So, please correct this with your "facts"
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 07:40:49 AM
To repeat, you wrote:
"Made three flat out false statements in just the last few hours."
I made three opinions, and since you cannot tell the difference between facts and opinions, you presented you opposing opinion as if they are acceptable and measurable facts.
Here is more on my opinion ...
Isrel killed those responsible for Munich. Isreal is killing those responsible for October 7. Their response is exactly the same. This is an opinion.
Regarding every campus. Tomorrow night Ben Shapiro scheduled to speak in Madison. Can't wait to see the respectful and peaceful protests that every Jewish student on campus will not consider threatening in any way. I'm sure no security will be needed for this peaceful protest. Or do you worry the Jewish protests will require security?
But yes, this is only happening on four or five campuses and nowhere else. This is an opinion.
Which party wants increased funding for Ukraine and which party is hesitant to pass it (I say hesitant as it is still under consideration). This is probably more of a fact, but it is also an opinion.
—-
We all understand your opinion, and you think it is the only way to correctly view things, so to think it a correct fact.
Israel response: Goalpost shift argument used.
Campus incidents: No refutation. Just anecdotes.
Ukraine: Doesn't refute a thing that I said or attempts to justify the original statement.
0/3 - not a serious person.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 08:04:23 AM
You argue yourself in circles, presenting opinions as facts and confusing the two.
So which is it? Above or below?
Also does your current opinion fact still mean they should only "severely weaken" Hamas. That reads as they should still be in charge of Gaza, and given an acceptable number of Jews they can kill every year. 1400 too many, 50 to 100, acceptable.
Look forward to your dissembling.
Nope. Wrong again. I have been very consistent in my statements from the beginning. Israel is not going to be able to wipe out Hamas. I have used the phrases "severely weaken" or "maim." But they aren't going to be able to completely eliminate them.
And Israel is definitely going to be occupying Gaza again. Likely for some time. I don't see a workable alternative right now.
Why in the F is Iran chairing the UN''s Human Rights Council?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 05, 2023, 08:28:39 AM
Why in the F is Iran chairing the UN''s Human Rights Council?
Because the Human Rights Council is a joke, as is a lot of the work the UN does.
I'm still having trouble understanding how some of the most pro-Israel folks here (of which I am one BTW) could possibly object to America helping Ukraine fight off Putin - a Jew-hater who, among other things, is funding Iran's terrorism.
Hell, even if some pro-Israel hawks here don't give a crap about Ukraine itself, I'd think they'd want to distract Putin to keep him from getting even more involved in attempts to wipe out Israel. He obviously would prefer to eliminate the United States, but he'd settle for Israel.
Congress needs to stop playing around and should pass a package that includes military aid to Israel and Ukraine. Obviously, that aid has nothing to with trying to keep the IRS from going after rich tax cheats, so stop trying to link the two. It's so ridiculous you'd think it was Tommy Tuberville's idea.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 08:29:26 AM
Because the Human Rights Council is a joke, as is a lot of the work the UN does.
That's a problem that must be addressed.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 05, 2023, 08:45:36 AM
That's a problem that must be addressed.
I have a twelve and a half point plan to do just that.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 08:46:59 AM
I have a twelve and a half point plan to do just that.
I can add it to part 4.
Quote from: MU82 on November 05, 2023, 08:44:26 AM
I'm still having trouble understanding how some of the most pro-Israel folks here (of which I am one BTW) could possibly object to America helping Ukraine fight off Putin - a Jew-hater who, among other things, is funding Iran's terrorism.
Hell, even if some pro-Israel hawks here don't give a crap about Ukraine itself, I'd think they'd want to distract Putin to keep him from getting even more involved in attempts to wipe out Israel. He obviously would prefer to eliminate the United States, but he'd settle for Israel.
Congress needs to stop playing around and should pass a package that includes military aid to Israel and Ukraine. Obviously, that aid has nothing to with trying to keep the IRS from going after rich tax cheats, so stop trying to link the two. It's so ridiculous you'd think it was Tommy Tuberville's idea.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone on this board, in congress, in the senate or in the media not supporting funding to Ukraine and condemning attacks on Zelensky looking like a rat are anti-semites.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 07:58:16 AM
You expected the letter to give date, times and physical evidence of assaults? Or are you accusing Ackman, or the kids he talked to of being liars?
It is up to Harvard to address this issues and they have not. To date they have kept quiet on all these matters.
His letter is asking them to address these issues.
I didn't say anything about the veracity of Ackmans claims. I was commenting on your description of his claims ""details the physical assaults and verbal abuse Jewish students are constantly under at Harvard."
You also claim that Harvard has done nothing to address things... when Ackmans own letter lists things that they have done to address it (but critcizes them as poorly communicated or not seeming genuine which may be true, IDK). You also have no way of knowing if Harvard has pursued disciplinary action against any students because again those records are protected by federal privacy laws and require due process that typically takes months to complete.
Quote from: MU82 on November 05, 2023, 08:44:26 AM
I'm still having trouble understanding how some of the most pro-Israel folks here (of which I am one BTW) could possibly object to America helping Ukraine fight off Putin - a Jew-hater who, among other things, is funding Iran's terrorism.
Hell, even if some pro-Israel hawks here don't give a crap about Ukraine itself, I'd think they'd want to distract Putin to keep him from getting even more involved in attempts to wipe out Israel. He obviously would prefer to eliminate the United States, but he'd settle for Israel.
Congress needs to stop playing around and should pass a package that includes military aid to Israel and Ukraine. Obviously, that aid has nothing to with trying to keep the IRS from going after rich tax cheats, so stop trying to link the two. It's so ridiculous you'd think it was Tommy Tuberville's idea.
I agree that we should fully support Ukraine but as I stated very early in that war we shouldn't have soft rolled helping them, we could have trained their pilots much earlier as one example. Certain dumbass Republicans undermining Ukraine is extremely foolish and will have disastrous consequences. It's absolutely vital that BOTH Israel and Ukraine win imo. And if people do not see this Axis of Evil that is infesting the entire world they better get their head out of their ass.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 05, 2023, 11:53:37 AM
I agree that we should fully support Ukraine but as I stated very early in that war we shouldn't have soft rolled helping them, we could have trained their pilots much earlier as one example. Certain dumbass Republicans undermining Ukraine is extremely foolish and will have disastrous consequences. It's absolutely vital that BOTH Israel and Ukraine win imo. And if people do not see this Axis of Evil that is infesting the entire world they better get their head out of their ass.
Agreed. It's all one connected war and needs to be funded as such.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 05, 2023, 08:50:53 AM
As far as I'm concerned, anyone on this board, in congress, in the senate or in the media not supporting funding to Ukraine and condemning attacks on Zelensky looking like a rat are anti-semites.
mushy, brown, stinky matter between their ears, hey
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 08:25:11 AM
Nope. Wrong again. I have been very consistent in my statements from the beginning. Israel is not going to be able to wipe out Hamas. I have used the phrases "severely weaken" or "maim." But they aren't going to be able to completely eliminate them.
And Israel is definitely going to be occupying Gaza again. Likely for some time. I don't see a workable alternative right now.
Just checking ... you do realize these are opinions and not facts? So, if someone disagrees with these opinions that are not "wrong on the facts."
This disctiction is unclear with you.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 04:27:16 PM
Just checking ... you do realize these are opinions and not facts? So, if someone disagrees with these opinions that are not "wrong on the facts."
This disctiction is unclear with you.
You realize that I was responding to a post where you quoted me twice, stating my opinion was inconsistent right? That's what I was responding to. You are wrong that I have changed my position.
You can't even keep your own posts straight.
Something to consider when consuming news on the topic.
https://x.com/arifcrafiq/status/1721258414448222677?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Apparently Netanyahu has mushy, brown, stinky matter between their ears, hey?
And no fan of the five-point plan, either.
The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has disciplined a junior member of his cabinet who appeared to voice openness to the idea of Israel carrying out a nuclear strike on Gaza.
Netanyahu's office said in a statement that the minister concerned – heritage minister Amihai Eliyahu from a far-right party in the coalition government – had been suspended from cabinet meetings "until further notice".
Netanyahu's office said: "Eliyahu's statements are not based in reality. Israel and the IDF (military) are operating in accordance with the highest standards of international law to avoid harming innocents. We will continue to do so until our victory."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/05/netanyahu-reprimands-israeli-minister-over-gaza-nuclear-option-comment
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 04:34:24 PM
You realize that I was responding to a post where you quoted me twice, stating my opinion was inconsistent right? That's what I was responding to. You are wrong that I have changed my position.
You can't even keep your own posts straight.
Yes and you dodged the real question and "moved the goalpost" to answer something else.
So I assumed you think these statements are consistent.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 05:19:07 AM
It's was a threat to the existence of Israel. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a response.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on October 22, 2023, 11:49:37 AM
No this isn't a "war for the existance of a race of people." That's hyperbolic nonsense.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 05:52:41 PM
Yes and you dodged the real question and "moved the goalpost" to answer something else.
So I assumed you think these statements are consistent.
My apologies. I meant to say "It was not a threat..." Which was why I said "That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a response."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 05, 2023, 08:29:26 AM
Because the Human Rights Council is a joke, as is a lot of the work the UN does.
Sad but true.
Quote from: MU82 on November 05, 2023, 08:44:26 AM
I'm still having trouble understanding how some of the most pro-Israel folks here (of which I am one BTW) could possibly object to America helping Ukraine fight off Putin - a Jew-hater who, among other things, is funding Iran's terrorism.
Hell, even if some pro-Israel hawks here don't give a crap about Ukraine itself, I'd think they'd want to distract Putin to keep him from getting even more involved in attempts to wipe out Israel. He obviously would prefer to eliminate the United States, but he'd settle for Israel.
Congress needs to stop playing around and should pass a package that includes military aid to Israel and Ukraine. Obviously, that aid has nothing to with trying to keep the IRS from going after rich tax cheats, so stop trying to link the two. It's so ridiculous you'd think it was Tommy Tuberville's idea.
Mike - I thought you referred to yourself as a pacifist. Is that not true?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 05, 2023, 08:50:53 AM
As far as I'm concerned, anyone on this board, in congress, in the senate or in the media not supporting funding to Ukraine and condemning attacks on Zelensky looking like a rat are anti-semites.
I support funding for both Ukraine and Israel. However, honesty compels me to say that Zelensky does indeed look like a rat.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 05, 2023, 07:19:05 PM
I support funding for both Ukraine and Israel. However, honesty compels me to say that Zelensky does indeed look like a rat.
Meaning what exactly Lenny?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 05, 2023, 07:15:15 PM
Mike - I thought you referred to yourself as a pacifist. Is that not true?
Here is what I said about 3 weeks ago:
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2023, 03:33:19 PM
I am a pacifist, and I'm hardly an apologist for Israel. But Israel's gotta do what Israel's gotta do to protect its own people. Innocents will die, they always do in war. But it's hard for me to blame Israel for saying, "Better their innocents than our innocents."
I actually just looked up a couple definitions for pacifist ... and it looks like I misspoke.
Most common is "a person who believes that war is unjustifiable." Obviously, I believe Israel is justified in going after Hamas, just as I believe the United States was justified in going after Japan, even if it meant that innocent people had to die. I guess that makes me not a pacifist; if so, I can live with that.
What a time in the world's history. The whole thing is horrific and sad and brutal and maddening.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 05, 2023, 07:37:58 PM
Meaning what exactly Lenny?
Light hearted reply to Rico's joke.
Quote from: Goose on November 04, 2023, 05:02:18 PM
Doc,
Do you think that plan will gain traction on scoop?
That'd be like nuking Waukesha and expecting Milwaukee to not be affected. It's foolish.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 06, 2023, 09:05:20 AM
That'd be like nuking Waukesha and expecting Milwaukee to not be affected. It's foolish.
I mean, I wouldn't feel strongly one way or another about losing Waukesha. It'd be a tragedy but... thoughts and prayers
Should I be surprised that I haven't seen the "hate on campuses is out of control" group comment on the Muslim student at Stanford who was injured in a deliberate hit and run as part of a hate crime yet?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 04, 2023, 11:22:45 PM
I do condemn that graffiti (not free speech) as well as anyone who has expressed similar sentiments (free speech). I don't condemn anyone who uses their right to peacefully demonstrate in support of either Israel or Palestine (not Hamas, I strongly condemn anyone who expresses support for Hamas or their actions) and I definitely don't condemn those who peacefully demonstrate in support of peace. I don't know that peace is possible or a reasonable expectation at this point in time, but I strongly believe that it must be the end goal.
Yep same.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 05:15:33 AM
Their has been a giant phase shift in politics in the last generation.
In 2001, the right, lead by the neoconservatives, pushed for war. It was the left in opposition.
Today it is the progressives pushing for war in Ukraine and the party of the neoconservatives becoming ambivalent.
In 2012 it was Barack Obama famously mocked Mitt Romney about his hawkish views on Russia by saying, "the 80s called, they want their foreign policy back."
That 1980s Russian policy in now the policy of the left.
30 or 40 years ago, the democrat party was the home of the working class (think populist party). The Republican Party was run by the wealthy (think country club, chamber of commerce types).
Today the party of the populist is the Republican Party and the party run by the wealthy is the Democrat party (academics and celebrities).
——
It is because of these phase shifts that left-right might no longer apply.
See Bill Maher. As a traditional liberal that has not changed his views at all, his audience is switching from progressives to conservatives.
Ditto Matt Taibbi and Glen Greenwall.
This is completely inaccurate lmao
Quote from: forgetful on November 06, 2023, 09:46:08 AM
Should I be surprised that I haven't seen the "hate on campuses is out of control" group comment on the Muslim student at Stanford who was injured in a deliberate hit and run as part of a hate crime yet?
Ot this:
Police and the FBI are investigating a death threat slipped under the office door of a Palestinian employee at American University.
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/fbi-investigates-death-threat-against-palestinian-employee-at-american-university/3455917/
Or this:
In the days immediately following Hamas' Oct. 7 attack on Israel, Palestinian, Muslim, and Arab students reported a rise in Islamophobic and anti-Arab rhetoric that some have characterized as reminiscent of the post-9/11 landscape.
Spectator spoke to over a dozen Columbia affiliates about doxxing, physical and verbal harassment, safety on campus, and the University's response. Students said they were spat at, called "terrorists," had their names and personal information added to "doxxing" spreadsheets or websites, had photos taken of them, and endured verbal intimidation after expressing pro-Palestinian views.
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/11/02/were-the-ones-being-targeted-pro-palestinian-affiliates-report-harrassment-threats/
Or this:
A message declaring "Death to Palestine" was written on a whiteboard outside of a suite in Grace Hopper College on Monday, Oct. 9. Later that evening, the initial message had been replaced with three Hebrew phrases, which translate to "death to Palestine," "children of whores" and "they are hairy wet cats."
https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2023/10/16/messages-declare-death-to-palestine-on-hopper-whiteboard/
Doesn't fit the good guy/bad guy narrative.
It all sucks. There are far too many anti-semites, islamophobes and racists in this country. Events like this only expose them even more and is a sad indictment on what's supposed to be an enlightened society. A lot of prejudice is rooted in our country's embrace of purposeful ignorance
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 06, 2023, 10:39:31 AM
It all sucks. There are far too many anti-semites, islamophobes and racists in this country. Events like this only expose them even more and is a sad indictment on what's supposed to be an enlightened society. A lot of prejudice is rooted in our country's embrace of purposeful ignorance
You seem prejudiced against those that embrace ignorance.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 06, 2023, 10:39:31 AM
It all sucks. There are far too many anti-semites, islamophobes and racists in this country. Events like this only expose them even more and is a sad indictment on what's supposed to be an enlightened society. A lot of prejudice is rooted in our country's embrace of purposeful ignorance
Yep yep yep.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 06, 2023, 10:52:21 AM
You seem prejudiced against those that embrace ignorance.
Sure am. Even more prejudiced against those that encourage it, especially those in leadership positions, be it politically, religiously or locally
Quote from: forgetful on November 06, 2023, 09:46:08 AM
Should I be surprised that I haven't seen the "hate on campuses is out of control" group comment on the Muslim student at Stanford who was injured in a deliberate hit and run as part of a hate crime yet?
hey, ya found one
Quote from: forgetful on November 06, 2023, 09:46:08 AM
Should I be surprised that I haven't seen the "hate on campuses is out of control" group comment on the Muslim student at Stanford who was injured in a deliberate hit and run as part of a hate crime yet?
The comment above mine should answer your question for you.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 06, 2023, 11:58:06 AM
hey, ya found one
The one instance of racism against arabs? lol
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 06, 2023, 11:58:06 AM
hey, ya found one
It's okay to admit there is rampant Islamophobia. It's okay to admit there is rampant anti-semitism. Both are abhorrent and those partaking deserve scorn and zero sympathy for the ramifications on their future employability
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 06, 2023, 02:41:54 PM
It's okay to admit there is rampant Islamophobia. It's okay to admit there is rampant anti-semitism. Both are abhorrent and those partaking deserve scorn and zero sympathy for the ramifications on their future employability
Yes, and generally when there is an increase in one, there is an increase in the other.Just a bad cycle.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 06, 2023, 02:54:41 PM
Yes, and generally when there is an increase in one, there is an increase in the other.Just a bad cycle.
One group significantly scares dentists more than the other though.
Uhuh.....there's Islamophobia too. And racism, and misogyny. Nice fking analysis and contextualizing. If the KKK and other racists scumbags tomorrow went into a black neighborhood and massacred 1500 innocent civilians, in the fashion that the Jews (and some Muslims) in Israel were murdered, would this be your fking response? Seriously,? And btw there are 16 million Jews on the entire freaking planet. There are like 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Look at what's going on here and across the world to our Jewish citizens. This is absolutely disgusting and making any moral equivalency is quite frankly ludicrous.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 06, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Uhuh.....there's Islamophobia too. And racism, and misogyny. Nice fking analysis and contextualizing. If the KKK and other racists cumbags tomorrow went into a black neighborhood and massacred 1500 innocent civilians, in the fashion that the Jews (and some Muslims) in Israel were murdered, would this be your fking response? Seriously,? And btw there are 16 million Jews on the entire freaking planet. There are like 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Look at what's going on here and across the world to our Jewish citizens. This is absolutely disgusting and making any moral equivalency is quite frankly ludicrous.
So since there are more Muslims than Jews, it is more acceptable to descriminate against them?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 06, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Uhuh.....there's Islamophobia too. And racism, and misogyny. Nice fking analysis and contextualizing. If the KKK and other racists cumbags tomorrow went into a black neighborhood and massacred 1500 innocent civilians, in the fashion that the Jews (and some Muslims) in Israel were murdered, would this be your fking response? Seriously,? And btw there are 16 million Jews on the entire freaking planet. There are like 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Look at what's going on here and across the world to our Jewish citizens. This is absolutely disgusting and making any moral equivalency is quite frankly ludicrous.
I don't know where to begin.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 06, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Uhuh.....there's Islamophobia too. And racism, and misogyny. Nice fking analysis and contextualizing. If the KKK and other racists cumbags tomorrow went into a black neighborhood and massacred 1500 innocent civilians, in the fashion that the Jews (and some Muslims) in Israel were murdered, would this be your fking response? Seriously,? And btw there are 16 million Jews on the entire freaking planet. There are like 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Look at what's going on here and across the world to our Jewish citizens. This is absolutely disgusting and making any moral equivalency is quite frankly ludicrous.
Granted, I may have skimmed over some posts, but who is saying Hamas shouldn't be punished?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 06, 2023, 03:21:09 PM
One group significantly scares dentists more than the other though.
God dang you're almost as funny as reeeeko
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 06, 2023, 02:41:54 PM
It's okay to admit there is rampant Islamophobia. It's okay to admit there is rampant anti-semitism. Both are abhorrent and those partaking deserve scorn and zero sympathy for the ramifications on their future employability
This.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 06, 2023, 02:54:41 PM
Yes, and generally when there is an increase in one, there is an increase in the other.Just a bad cycle.
And also agree.
The purpose of pointing out the ongoing hate for both groups is in part to point/out remind everyone that this hate, and cycles of hate are manifest throughout our society and needed to be stopped.
It is not, as some have tried to imply, a one-sided hate issue resulting from something Universities are teaching. Rather, universities go out of their way to require development of critical thinking skills that can hopefully end cycles of hate.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 06, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Uhuh.....there's Islamophobia too. And racism, and misogyny. Nice fking analysis and contextualizing. If the KKK and other racists cumbags tomorrow went into a black neighborhood and massacred 1500 innocent civilians, in the fashion that the Jews (and some Muslims) in Israel were murdered, would this be your fking response? Seriously,? And btw there are 16 million Jews on the entire freaking planet. There are like 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Look at what's going on here and across the world to our Jewish citizens. This is absolutely disgusting and making any moral equivalency is quite frankly ludicrous.
Sigh.
Plenty of stories of antisemitism.
Here is one example from this weekend. A self-described Palestinian woman rammed her car into a Jewish school in Indianapolis.
https://www.wishtv.com/news/crime-watch-8/report-woman-drives-into-building-attempts-to-target-indianapolis-jewish-community/
According to investigators with the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, Ruba Almaghtheh told one officer she has been watching the news and couldn't breath anymore. She referenced her people back in Palestine. Almaghtheh said she passed by a couple times and saw the "Israel school." Almaghtheh further stated, "Yes. I did do it on purpose."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 06, 2023, 03:49:52 PM
So since there are more Muslims than Jews, it is more acceptable to descriminate against them?
FBI Director Christopher Wray said the U.S. is seeing
"historic" levels of antisemitism ... And when you look at a group that makes up
2.4 percent, roughly, of the American population, it should be jarring to everyone that that same population accounts for something like 60 percent of all religious-based hate crimes, and so they need our help," Wray said.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4286146-fbi-director-warns-of-historic-antisemitism-levels/
I'll answer the question: antisemitism is far more prevalent than Islamaphobia.
-------
Now, you are going to say that both are equally as bad. I agree. So, what should be done about this wave of violence?
Crack down on violent speech? Arrest everyone that says "River to the Sea" and other such violent actions (and yes, if similar things are said against Muslims, arrest them too?)
Is that too hard? Then, shut down all demonstrations? Violation of the First Amendment?
----
Can nothing be done about this? If so, what is the point of bringing these incidents up? It is only going to get worse and worse.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 06, 2023, 02:19:09 PM
The one instance of racism against arabs? lol
When did Arabs stop being semites?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 06, 2023, 04:23:09 PM
When did Arabs stop being semites?
They didn't, but the world decided antisemitic meant anti-jewish a long long time ago, so that's the definition we all go with.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 06, 2023, 04:23:09 PM
When did Arabs stop being semites?
I don't think the people discriminating against Arabs in the US are asking them their religion first. It's islamaphobia impacting semites, muslims, sikhs, christians, etc as long as they look the part. Racists aren't the smartest.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 05, 2023, 05:15:33 AM
See Bill Maher. As a traditional liberal that has not changed his views at all, his audience is switching from progressives to conservatives.
Ditto Matt Taibbi and Glen Greenwall.
You're just wrong. Maher was a traditional Libertarian and claimed to be one. Taibbi and Greenwald are just following the dollar bills like a trailer part ho'.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 06, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Uhuh.....there's Islamophobia too. And racism, and misogyny. Nice fking analysis and contextualizing. If the KKK and other racists cumbags tomorrow went into a black neighborhood and massacred 1500 innocent civilians, in the fashion that the Jews (and some Muslims) in Israel were murdered, would this be your fking response? Seriously,? And btw there are 16 million Jews on the entire freaking planet. There are like 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Look at what's going on here and across the world to our Jewish citizens. This is absolutely disgusting and making any moral equivalency is quite frankly ludicrous.
Good to know that scoop doesnt censor "cumbags". What I got from this is some lives are more equal than others.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 06, 2023, 04:04:35 PM
God dang you're almost as funny as reeeeko
I didn't read a denial
Quote from: Jockey on November 06, 2023, 04:52:57 PM
You're just wrong. Maher was a traditional Libertarian and claimed to be one. Taibbi and Greenwald are just following the dollar bills like a trailer part ho'.
Another poster thinks their opinion is the only "correct" one. So, their opinion is transformed into an indisputable fact. Everyone who disagrees with their "fact" is "just wrong."
The world is two kinds of people. Those that agree with my "opinions," and those that are wrong on the "facts."
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 06, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Uhuh.....there's Islamophobia too. And racism, and misogyny. Nice fking analysis and contextualizing. If the KKK and other racists cumbags tomorrow went into a black neighborhood and massacred 1500 innocent civilians, in the fashion that the Jews (and some Muslims) in Israel were murdered, would this be your fking response? Seriously,? And btw there are 16 million Jews on the entire freaking planet. There are like 1.5 BILLION Muslims. Look at what's going on here and across the world to our Jewish citizens. This is absolutely disgusting and making any moral equivalency is quite frankly ludicrous.
Per your policy does this mean all KKK and other racists must not be destroyed and shown darkness?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 06, 2023, 05:08:53 PM
Another poster thinks their opinion is the only "correct" one. So, their opinion is transformed into an indisputable fact. Everyone who disagrees with their "fact" is "just wrong."
The world is two kinds of people. Those that agree with my "opinions," and those that are wrong on the "facts."
Jockey's opinion is correct here. Maher has always been a Libertarian. Taibbi and Greenwald have always been greedy assholes.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 06, 2023, 04:54:29 PM
I didn't read a denial
Denial of what? You're the one who claims "one group significantly scares dentists over the other"?
We didn't claim anything. You tell us dip shot, which group scares us
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 06, 2023, 04:54:04 PM
Good to know that scoop doesnt censor "cumbags". What I got from this is some lives are more equal than others.
That one is going in my back pocket for sure.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 06, 2023, 06:58:21 PM
That one is going in my back pocket for sure.
So that's what you call it!
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 06, 2023, 06:00:18 PM
Denial of what? You're the one who claims "one group significantly scares dentists over the other"?
We didn't claim anything. You tell us dip shot, which group scares us
Change
Quote from: Mutaman on November 06, 2023, 05:34:11 PM
Jockey's opinion is correct here. Maher has always been a Libertarian. Taibbi and Greenwald have always been greedy pretty boys.
Wrong. Maher identified as Libertarian a long time ago because of both party's stances on the war on drugs. But he later moved to a more standard liberal bent. He contributed 1 million dollars to Barack Obama's super pac. Nobody ever called BO a libertarian.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 06, 2023, 04:22:49 PM
Now, you are going to say that both are equally as bad. I agree. So, what should be done about this wave of violence?
Crack down on violent speech? Arrest everyone that says "River to the Sea" and other such violent actions (and yes, if similar things are said against Muslims, arrest them too?)
Is that too hard? Then, shut down all demonstrations? Violation of the First Amendment?
Would you support arresting people that say "River to the Sea"?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 06, 2023, 10:20:58 PM
Wrong. Maher identified as Libertarian a long time ago because of both party's stances on the war on drugs. But he later moved to a more standard liberal bent. He contributed 1 million dollars to Barack Obama's super pac. Nobody ever called BO a libertarian.
Maher's politics have always been typical "your not the boss of me "
libertarian politics. His contribution to Obama was based on his belief in the man, not his belief in the man's politics. Same reason he backed Bernie. Has anyone ever called Sanders a liberal?
Quote from: Mutaman on November 07, 2023, 02:39:14 AM
Maher's politics have always been typical "your not the boss of me "
libertarian politics. His contribution to Obama was based on his belief in the man, not his belief in the man's politics. Same reason he backed Bernie. Has anyone ever called Sanders a liberal?
Recall my larger point that there's been a phase shift in politics
The progressive left is now pro war, anti free speech (speech is violence!), anti-Isreal, and does not listen to Maher.
20 years ago these were called neocons, Cap Weinberger and Donald Rumsfeld were their leaders.
Conversely, the neocons of 20 years ago, are now antiwar (at least Ukraine), pro first amendment, pro Israel, and are becoming Maher's biggest fans.
20 years ago, people in this group voted for Ralph Nader.
——
Whatever Maher is or isn't, he hasn't changed in 20 years. He's been a constant. The same with Taibbi and Greenwall. Now they're getting a lot of fans from the right.
This is happening because of the phase shift in politics.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 06, 2023, 11:47:43 PM
Would you support arresting people that say "River to the Sea"?
If you define it as a call for violence, which I do, yes.
It's the same as chanting, "murdered the Jews," or "lynch the ..."
—-
A Palestinian kill the Jewish man yesterday in LA.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/9563651/paul-kessler-dead-pro-palestine-rally/
The medical examiner's office determined that his death was a homicide from blunt force trauma.
"The Ventura County Sheriff's Office is investigating the incident and has not ruled out the possibility of a hate crime," the sheriff's office wrote.
As deputies look into what led up to the clash that wounded Kessler, some reports claim that he was hit in the head with a megaphone before he fell.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 05:46:47 AM
Recall my larger point that there's been a phase shift in politics
The progressive left is now pro war, anti free speech (speech is violence!), anti-Isreal, and does not listen to Maher.
20 years ago these were called neocons, Cap Weinberger and Donald Rumsfeld were their leaders.
Conversely, the neocons of 20 years ago, are now antiwar (at least Ukraine), pro first amendment, pro Israel, and are becoming Maher's biggest fans.
20 years ago, people in this group voted for Ralph Nader.
——
Whatever Maher is or isn't, he hasn't changed in 20 years. He's been a constant. The same with Taibbi and Greenwall. Now they're getting a lot of fans from the right.
This is happening because of the phase shift in politics.
As I mentioned earlier, this is fantasy. All three of the people you mentioned also have enormous egos and can't acknowledge their errors.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 05:59:15 AM
If you define it as a call for violence, which I do, yes.
It's the same as chanting, "murdered the Jews," or "lynch the ..."
—-
A Palestinian kill the Jewish man yesterday in LA.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/9563651/paul-kessler-dead-pro-palestine-rally/
The medical examiner's office determined that his death was a homicide from blunt force trauma.
"The Ventura County Sheriff's Office is investigating the incident and has not ruled out the possibility of a hate crime," the sheriff's office wrote.
As deputies look into what led up to the clash that wounded Kessler, some reports claim that he was hit in the head with a megaphone before he fell.
Your other two examples have violent words in them. Murder and lynch.
Again, not a serious person.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 07, 2023, 02:39:14 AM
Maher's politics have always been typical "your not the boss of me "
libertarian politics. His contribution to Obama was based on his belief in the man, not his belief in the man's politics. Same reason he backed Bernie. Has anyone ever called Sanders a liberal?
Yes. He's on the fringe but caucuses with the Democrats and votes with them the vast majority of the time.
Find me one other libertarian who gave a million dollars to Obama or supported a democratic socialist (Sanders) for president and I'll agree. Iconoclast? Sure. Libertarian? Not for a very long time (if ever).
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 07, 2023, 06:55:08 AM
Yes. He's on the fringe but caucuses with the Democrats and votes with them the vast majority of the time.
Find me one other libertarian who gave a million dollars to Obama or supported a democratic socialist (Sanders) for president and I'll agree. Iconoclast? Sure. Libertarian? Not for a very long time (if ever).
I don't think it is easy to classify Maher as anything except a contrarian dickhead... or smug know it all. He has some good ideas, and some terrible ones. He's just the average American who has strong beliefs about specific topics... but he has a platform. I'm not sure the last time he has been funny though.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 05:59:15 AM
If you define it as a call for violence, which I do, yes.
It's the same as chanting, "murdered the Jews," or "lynch the ..."
We've covered this before in this thread but "a call to violence" isn't one of the free speech exceptions. What you may be confusing it with is incitement of immediate lawless action.
None of your examples meet the standard for incitement. You are calling for the government to arrest people for free speech.
Just like Dennis Miller, Maher WAS funny. Less so now.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 07, 2023, 06:55:08 AM
Yes. He's on the fringe but caucuses with the Democrats and votes with them the vast majority of the time.
Find me one other libertarian who gave a million dollars to Obama or supported a democratic socialist (Sanders) for president and I'll agree. Iconoclast? Sure. Libertarian? Not for a very long time (if ever).
https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/13/politics/penn-jillette-bernie-sanders-libertarian/index.html
Odd story
https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/woman-arrested-for-driving-into-building-after-believing-it-represented-israel-indianapolis-n-keystone-avenue/531-322915d2-894e-4134-add0-00b3b3aa3d74 (https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/woman-arrested-for-driving-into-building-after-believing-it-represented-israel-indianapolis-n-keystone-avenue/531-322915d2-894e-4134-add0-00b3b3aa3d74)
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 07, 2023, 07:07:08 AM
Odd story
https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/woman-arrested-for-driving-into-building-after-believing-it-represented-israel-indianapolis-n-keystone-avenue/531-322915d2-894e-4134-add0-00b3b3aa3d74 (https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/woman-arrested-for-driving-into-building-after-believing-it-represented-israel-indianapolis-n-keystone-avenue/531-322915d2-894e-4134-add0-00b3b3aa3d74)
Yeah, I think H20 posted this earlier... glad no one was hurt, and I hope the woman gets help.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 07:15:32 AM
Yeah, I think H20 posted this earlier... glad no one was hurt, and I hope the woman gets help.
I have him on ignore, so I didn't see it. Building actually belonged to the Black Hebrew Israelites, a hate group.
I don't care if your a democrat, republican, Jew, or gentile, every American needs to watch this senate hearing. If you are not completely appalled by what you see and hear, then there not only is mushy, brown, stinky matter between your ears, but also throughout your entire body, hey?
https://youtu.be/lQmCsdxCIZM?si=WJQ0XEdN0IpXYjnI
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 07:37:08 AM
I don't care if your a democrat, republican, Jew, or gentile, every American needs to watch this senate hearing. If you are not completely appalled by what you see and hear, then there not only is mushy, brown, stinky matter between your ears, but also throughout your entire body, hey?
https://youtu.be/lQmCsdxCIZM?si=WJQ0XEdN0IpXYjnI
Get outside. Take a walk. Read a book. Learn to crochet.
These are all things that would be better for you than watching a Senate hearing.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 07:40:22 AM
Get outside. Take a walk. Read a book. Learn to crochet.
These are all things that would be better for you than watching a Senate hearing.
These type of hearings are always just performance art.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 07:37:08 AM
I don't care if your a democrat, republican, Jew, or gentile, every American needs to watch this senate hearing. If you are not completely appalled by what you see and hear, then there not only is mushy, brown, stinky matter between your ears, but also throughout your entire body, hey?
https://youtu.be/lQmCsdxCIZM?si=WJQ0XEdN0IpXYjnI
Mayorkas clips probably aren't good for my blood pressure.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 07, 2023, 08:22:43 AM
Mayorkas clips probably aren't good for my blood pressure.
Neither is red meat
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 07:15:32 AM
Yeah, I think H20 posted this earlier... glad no one was hurt, and I hope the woman gets help.
She thinks she is a fighter in a war. She openly admitted to it as she is probably willing to be a Martyr.
Why does she think this? Maybe because hundreds of thousands of people in American Street across the country are protesting that this war is causing genocide against her people.
Maybe the police should treat her according to the Geneva Convention and not her Miranda rights.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 07, 2023, 07:20:53 AM
I have him on ignore, so I didn't see it. Building actually belonged to the Black Hebrew Israelites, a hate group.
Why is this relevant? Does it make it ok?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 08:37:34 AM
She thinks she is a fighter in a war. She openly admitted to it as she is probably willing to be a Martyr.
Why does she think this? Maybe because hundreds of thousands of people in American Street across the country are protesting that this war is causing genocide against her people.
Maybe the police should treat her according to the Geneva Convention and not her Miranda rights.
No, she's mentally ill. Don' t be a dope.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 07:37:08 AM
I don't care if your a democrat, republican, Jew, or gentile, every American needs to watch this senate hearing. If you are not completely appalled by what you see and hear, then there not only is mushy, brown, stinky matter between your ears, but also throughout your entire body, hey?
https://youtu.be/lQmCsdxCIZM?si=WJQ0XEdN0IpXYjnI
When will you be condemning Tuckems, Marge, Gosar, et al for their attacks on Jews?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 08:39:44 AM
No, she's mentally ill. Don' t be a dope.
And you are basing this on your medical degree after reading a story about the incident? (or are you basing it on the summaries here?)
Do you also think that many of the 2.5 million people in Gaza are also mentally ill? She feels no differently than them.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 06:09:40 AM
As I mentioned earlier, this is fantasy. All three of the people you mentioned also have enormous egos and can't acknowledge their errors.
What errors are you referring to (honest question, I have no idea what you're talking about)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 07:37:08 AM
I don't care if your a democrat, republican, Jew, or gentile, every American needs to watch this senate hearing. If you are not completely appalled by what you see and hear, then there not only is mushy, brown, stinky matter between your ears, but also throughout your entire body, hey?
https://youtu.be/lQmCsdxCIZM?si=WJQ0XEdN0IpXYjnI
It is indeed appalling to see Senator Run Away accuse a Jewish man whose family was decimated in the Holocaust of antisemitism.
Thanks for sharing, Doc.
Would you say The Running Man's behavior here fits your definition of antisemitism?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 07, 2023, 07:00:50 AM
We've covered this before in this thread but "a call to violence" isn't one of the free speech exceptions. What you may be confusing it with is incitement of immediate lawless action.
None of your examples meet the standard for incitement. You are calling for the government to arrest people for free speech.
I agree that what I suggested is dicey stuff. So, I won't push back against what you said.
The other alternative is we need a LOT more police at these demonstrations. No one is there to prevent violence. In many of them, a police presence is almost non-existent.
So, as I noted above, maybe we should stop posting stories of violence being committed on American streets related to this war. Otherwise, we will have several such posts every day.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 07, 2023, 08:48:05 AM
It is indeed appalling to see Senator Run Away accuse a Jewish man whose family was decimated in the Holocaust of antisemitism.
Thanks for sharing, Doc.
Would you say The Running Man's behavior here fits your definition of antisemitism?
For the record, I applaud Hawley for pushing back and bringing this disgraceful behavior of a governmental employee to the forefront. Mayorkas, regardless of his background needs to resign immediately, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 08:56:09 AM
For the record, I applaud Hawley for pushing back and bringing this disgraceful behavior of a governmental employee to the forefront. Mayorkas, regardless of his background needs to resign immediately, aina?
Yes, thank goodness Senator Flee brought to our attention a tweet. He's a very serious man addressing the important issues facing our country, and not at all just looking to get on Fox News.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 08:43:38 AM
And you are basing this on your medical degree after reading a story about the incident? (or are you basing it on the summaries here?)
Do you also think that many of the 2.5 million people in Gaza are also mentally ill? She feels no differently than them.
Yikes dude. A rational person doesn't drive their car into a building after watching the news.
Get a grip.
Would a rational person take their their high powered rifle and shoot up a bowling alley and then kill himself? In the case of Palestinian terrorists, they will use their children as human shields, find it noble to be suicide bombers, all in the name of Allah.
Y'all forget 9/11 already, hey?
The big pro-Palestinian rallies in London are drawing the ire of many Brits.
In Saturday's protest (literally down the street from Buckingham Palace), a bunch of UK veterans came, in their old uniforms, waving the Union Jack.
(https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/940x/secondary/5051076.avif?r=1699221581094)
The police said they had to demonstrate by waving their country's flag behind the barricades.
Caught on tape was a veteran asking what the police would do about the hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian flags. The veteran was told by a policeman nothing, as there were too many of them as they marched down the street and desecrated UK war memorials along the way.
-----
https://x.com/DSchwammenthal/status/1720866411680006467?s=20
@DSchwammenthal
What does it mean for the UK if the London police tell British veterans they can waive the British flag only behind barricades?
Protester: "When they march down with hundreds of Palestinian flags you won't say a word."
Officer: "There's way more of them than there are of us."
-----
This officer's statement vividly captures what is happening in Europe (and maybe soon here) and how one is losing control of their country.
It has also sparked outrage among the British public.
-----
Fury as British veterans forced to wave flags behind barricades while protesters run riot
Metropolitan Police officers told British veterans that they were not able to decorate barriers opposite the Cenotaph with the Union Jack.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1831795/British-veterans-Cenotaph-protest-flags
------
This weekend is Remembrance Day (November 11) in the UK to honor the war dead on the day of WW1 Armistice. The Pro-Palestinian protesters are claiming they will have upwards of one million on the street protesting. There are calls to either cancel this protest or call out the military to prevent violence and the desecrating of more War memorials like last weekend.
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Tensions grow over a pro-Palestine protest on Remembrance Day: British patriots wave Union flags in counter-demo at the Cenotaph after war memorials are draped in Palestinian flag amid fears huge march could spark clashes on November 11
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12712717/Tensions-grow-pro-Palestine-protest-Remembrance-Day-British-patriots-wave-Union-flags-counter-demo-Cenotaph-war-memorials-draped-Palestinian-flag-amid-fears-huge-march-spark-clashes-November-11.html
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Again, is this unique to the UK, or are they just ahead of the curve from the US? We will also see the day when foreign protestors take over our street to the point that the police not only cannot do anything about it but will restrict anyone who oppresses them by waving the Stars and Stripes?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 08:56:09 AM
For the record, I applaud Hawley for pushing back and bringing this disgraceful behavior of a governmental employee to the forefront. Mayorkas, regardless of his background needs to resign immediately, aina?
Agree
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 09:02:37 AM
Yikes dude. A rational person doesn't drive their car into a building after watching the news.
Get a grip.
Do you mean the world is getting outraged because they saw on the news that the Israelis bombed a hospital?
Students who haven't been taught the importance of supporting proof of concept of Western democractic and pluralistic values in the middle east have heads full of mush.
Grown men who try to score political points against Holocaust survivors' public servant descendants for following due process and not reactionarily abandoning secular values in outrage also have heads full of mush.
These things (and more) can all be true.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 09:24:15 AM
Do you mean the world is getting outraged because they saw on the news that the Israelis bombed a hospital?
No. I meant exactly what I typed. As usual. Do you need a diagram to follow the logic that people who drive cars into buildings aren't mentally stable?
I cannot fathom a way to simplify this any further.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 09:27:11 AM
No. I meant exactly what I typed. As usual. Do you need a diagram to follow the logic that people who drive cars into buildings aren't mentally stable?
I cannot fathom a way to simplify this any further.
I get it that you are dismissive of this incident, believing (or wanting to believe) that it is yet another example of a mental health crisis in the US and not a deliberate act of violence directed at American Jews.
But a leading Jewish voice in the United States has a different take. And his is the voice of a serious person.
It's like he read this thread and is responding to you directly. But he wrote it yesterday. (Maybe it reads like he is responding to you directly because you are so predictable in your Western Progressive viewpoint.)
https://twitter.com/jpodhoretz/status/1721747231416406092
@jpodhoretz
People are making jokes because it wasn't a Jewish school, and therefore, she's stupid. The point is she thought it was, and it might have been, and that kids weren't murdered was a fluke.
Here's what I see: There are people in America actively looking to murder MY KIDS.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 08:56:09 AM
For the record, I applaud Hawley for pushing back and bringing this disgraceful behavior of a governmental employee to the forefront. Mayorkas, regardless of his background needs to resign immediately, aina?
IOKIYAR
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 09:34:26 AM
I get it that you are dismissive of this incident, believing (or wanting to believe) that it is yet another example of a mental health crisis in the US and not a deliberate act of violence directed at American Jews.
But a leading Jewish voice in the United States has a different take. And his is the voice of a serious person.
It's like he read this thread and is responding to you directly. But he wrote it yesterday. (Maybe it reads like he is responding to you directly because you are so predictable in your Western Progressive viewpoint.)
https://twitter.com/jpodhoretz/status/1721747231416406092
@jpodhoretz
People are making jokes because it wasn't a Jewish school, and therefore, she's stupid. The point is she thought it was, and it might have been, and that kids weren't murdered was a fluke.
Here's what I see: There are people in America actively looking to murder MY KIDS.
What is your solution then, or his? Lock up every person in America with Palestinian ancestry? All Arabs? All Muslims? Start up some 'internment' camps?
You are being absurd.If this was an actual problem you'd see it happen more often and it would be organized. This was what Occam's Razor says it was. A one off situation by one mentally unwell person.
I had an interesting discussion with my SIL about some of the "positive" side effects of the last month. She sent me a couple Op-Eds and had some personal stories about a surprising number of Jews reconnecting with their cultural identity and heritage in the wake of 10/7 and the reaction.
It's not some gut reaction Zionism and Muslim hate, or a revenge on Gaza, but rather feeling a connection and solidarity with the Jewish community, especially in the wake of the rise in very visible anti-Semitism worldwide. Yes it's been on the rise for some time but a profound catalyst obviously moves people differently.
Sure some people will use the sentiment for negative actions and others will accuse people of using their Judaism to cover for Islamophobia or the like, but I think as a net it can be a positive. I've certainly seen it in my wife's reconnecting feelings and emotions the last month as a secular, non practicing Jew. The Jewish people have found strength and resilience in collectivism and community in the face of persecution or tragedy for hundreds of years, it's one of their most beautiful cultural touchstones. It also powers their space lasers
Ahhhhhhhhhh ya got me ;D
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 09:45:44 AM
What is your solution then, or his? Lock up every person in America with Palestinian ancestry? All Arabs? All Muslims? Start up some 'internment' camps?
You are being absurd.
If this was an actual problem you'd see it happen more often and it would be organized. This was what Occam's Razor says it was. A one off situation by one mentally unwell person.
Oh ... we need "proportionality."
So, how many dead Jews do we need to reach your threshold of "proportionality?"
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 09:59:08 AM
Oh ... we need "proportionality."
So, how many dead Jews do we need to reach your threshold of "proportionality?"
not a serious person.
Run that question back about gun control and dead *any* kids and let me know what you come up with.
Nuance. Understand it.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 07, 2023, 09:53:26 AM
I had an interesting discussion with my SIL about some of the "positive" side effects of the last month. She sent me a couple Op-Eds and had some personal stories about a surprising number of Jews reconnecting with their cultural identity and heritage in the wake of 10/7 and the reaction.
It's not some gut reaction Zionism and Muslim hate, or a revenge on Gaza, but rather feeling a connection and solidarity with the Jewish community, especially in the wake of the rise in very visible anti-Semitism worldwide. Yes it's been on the rise for some time but a profound catalyst obviously moves people differently.
Sure some people will use the sentiment for negative actions and others will accuse people of using their Judaism to cover for Islamophobia or the like, but I think as a net it can be a positive. I've certainly seen it in my wife's reconnecting feelings and emotions the last month as a secular, non practicing Jew. The Jewish people have found strength and resilience in collectivism and community in the face of persecution or tragedy for hundreds of years, it's one of their most beautiful cultural touchstones. It also powers their space lasers
I agree ... I have seen the same thing that this has catalyzed Jews not only in the US but around the world. Not to hide but to want to display their connection and solidarity with the Jewish community.
They do not publicly because there is an abysmal police presence at nearly all these rallies, and they do not want to be subject to violence. (Marc Rowan, the billionaire Penn donor who was profiled above, said this lack of a forceful response by police to protect, or the Universities to sanction, is because, in his words, "they don't give a crap.")
The Jewish community is rediscovering itself because they see this as a fight for existence and survival, despite many here wanting to dismiss this idea.
(like the poster immediately above this one)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 10:08:38 AM
They do not publicly because there is an abysmal police presence at nearly all these rallies, and they do not want to be subject to violence. (Marc Rowan, the billionaire Penn donor who was profiled above, said this lack of a forceful response by police to protect, or the Universities to sanction, is because, in his words, "they don't give a crap.")
Or maybe they don't do so publicly because the same type of person who feels they have drifted too far away from their roots also just isn't the public demonstrating type? Not everything is because of some liberal-motivated gross societal negligence.
Someone here said the Ivies pro-Palastine protests are not indicative of higher eduction.
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Nov 6, 2023, 9:02PM CT
Ben Shapiro discusses Israel-Hamas war, incites protests during UW-Madison visit
https://www.dailycardinal.com/article/2023/11/ben-shapiro-discusses-israel-hamas-war-incites-protests-during-uw-madison-visit
Shapiro also criticized UW-Madison Chancellor Jennifer Mnookin's statement on the attacks, where she noted the "exceedingly fraught" nature of Middle East politics and said she was "skeptical" people "in roles like [hers] should frequently comment on global or world events."
He called Mnookin's response "vague" and accused the university of hypocrisy, citing official comments on other human rights issues, such as the 2020 George Floyd protests.
"The murder of Jews, however, that's a different story. That's a little sensitive," Shapiro said. "Why the double standard?"
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A crowd of about 100 counterdemonstrators gathered outside Memorial Union to protest Shapiro's talk.
The Young Democratic Socialists of America at UW-Madison (YDSA) organized the protest to show "a little bit of resistance" through a peaceful demonstration, an organization spokesperson said.
Protesters participated in pro-Palestinian chants and spoke out against Shapiro's stance on the Israel-Hamas war. The YDSA spokesperson, who identified themselves under the pseudonym Tasha, said Shapiro's rhetoric is harmful to marginalized groups on campus and that this protest was a way to "show a little resistance" in support of these groups and bring the community together.
"[Shapiro's] kind of speech doesn't have a place on our campus," Tasha told the Cardinal. "They say they're for free speech, but at the end of the day they're trying to silence you by making you afraid of speaking."
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It was peaceful but called for the extermination of the Jewish people.
(https://snworksceo.imgix.net/car/b55c8296-04b5-4c1e-966c-41b6ea552874.sized-1000x1000.jpg?w=788.0234375) (https://snworksceo.imgix.net/car/89d4d083-8131-4233-b445-e0794c9fd4ba.sized-1000x1000.jpg?w=788.0234375)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 10:24:46 AM
It was peaceful but called for the extermination of the Jewish people.
Could you back this up, please?
Thanks
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 08:39:44 AM
No, she's mentally ill. Don' t be a dope.
Silly ... claiming somebody is mentally ill is only for gun-lovers after a white male has gone on a shooting spree.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 09:59:08 AM
So, how many dead Jews do we need to reach your threshold of "proportionality?"
You sound like a proponent of common-sense gun-safety laws that would be popular with 75% or more of the American public. Welcome!
+++
As for Bernie Sanders ...
When one of the "sides" is Hamas, he said, "I don't know how you can have a cease-fire."
Unfortunately, IMHO, he's right.
Hypocrisy, no longer an embarrassing or shameful act, now part of the program.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 07, 2023, 10:53:13 AM
Hypocrisy, no longer an embarrassing or shameful act, now part of the program.
Doc doesn't like to talk about all the anti-Semites in American politics whom he backs. I don't blame him. It's gotta be embarrassing to be so pro-Israel and yet cheer on those who solicit support from Jew-hating white supremacists.
Somewhat lost because of the war in Israel is the 1.7 million Afghan refugees that Pakistan is kicking to the curb. Have there been any protests about this? Not a good situation.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 07, 2023, 10:53:13 AM
Hypocrisy, no longer an embarrassing or shameful act, now part of the program.
You simpletons keep looking for that little crack to weasel thru...suffice it to say we are anti Hamas/isis/taliban et.al. Period
Now carry on with your reach around pals
Quote from: Pakuni on November 07, 2023, 10:31:11 AM
Could you back this up, please?
Thanks
What does "resistance is justified," "free Palestine" and "aprthied" mean?
Hint, these words and phrases have a specific meaning in this context.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 07, 2023, 11:21:21 AM
You simpletons keep looking for that little crack to weasel thru...suffice it to say we are anti Hamas/isis/taliban et.al. Period
Now carry on with your reach around pals
Ahhh, so doc drool is too hypocritical...but you condemn Tuckems, Marge, Gosar et al for their antisemitism, correct?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 07, 2023, 11:21:21 AM
You simpletons keep looking for that little crack to weasel thru...suffice it to say we are anti Hamas/isis/taliban et.al. Period
Now carry on with your reach around pals
7.5 out of 10
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 09:45:44 AM
What is your solution then, or his? Lock up every person in America with Palestinian ancestry? All Arabs? All Muslims? Start up some 'internment' camps?
You are being absurd.
If this was an actual problem you'd see it happen more often and it would be organized. This was what Occam's Razor says it was. A one off situation by one mentally unwell person.
Another open from Brooklyn yesterday. Have we reached your "more often and organized" threshold, or do you need more attacks on Jews?
I know, it's just another sad example of the mental health crisis in the US.
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Shmira Member Pepper-Sprayed in Flatbush by Suspect Chanting 'Allah Akbar'
https://vinnews.com/2023/11/06/shmira-member-pepper-sprayed-in-flatbush-by-suspect-chanting-allah-akbar/
A Shmira member was pepper-sprayed on Shabbos afternoon in Flatbush, near the intersection of Avenue N & East 22nd Street.
The volunteer was sprayed directly in his eyes, after asking a female why she was ripping down posters of hostages kidnapped by Hamas. The individual pointed a knife at the Shmira volunteer, and yelled "Allah Akbar, I will cut all you Jews up".
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 11:49:48 AM
Another open from Brooklyn yesterday. Have we reached your "more often and organized" threshold, or do you need more attacks on Jews?
I know, it's just another sad example of the mental health crisis in the US.
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Shmira Member Pepper-Sprayed in Flatbush by Suspect Chanting 'Allah Akbar'
https://vinnews.com/2023/11/06/shmira-member-pepper-sprayed-in-flatbush-by-suspect-chanting-allah-akbar/
A Shmira member was pepper-sprayed on Shabbos afternoon in Flatbush, near the intersection of Avenue N & East 22nd Street.
The volunteer was sprayed directly in his eyes, after asking a female why she was ripping down posters of hostages kidnapped by Hamas. The individual pointed a knife at the Shmira volunteer, and yelled "Allah Akbar, I will cut all you Jews up".
I'm sorry, where is the 'organized' portion?
Thank God you're not a lawyer.
Again, what is your solution? Is it 'final'?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 11:53:30 AM
I'm sorry, where is the 'organized' portion?
Thank God you're not a lawyer.
Again, what is your solution? Is it 'final'?
Another one in Brooklyn yesterday.
Yes, it is all random and has no common thread (a common thread can be an organizing idea).
https://x.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1721604053476553122?s=20
@MarinaMedvin
Per Flatbush News, this man was arrested for attacking religious Jews with pepper spray in Brooklyn. He pepper sprayed multiple people who he ran up to on the street in a Jewish neighborhood. He was also seen tearing down kidnapped Israeli signs and making antisemitic remarks.
----
second post
The suspect is a female, not a male, I was corrected.
The suspect had a knife and pepper spray on her.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 11:55:41 AM
Another one in Brooklyn yesterday.
Yes, it is all random and has no common thread (a common thread can be an organizing idea).
https://x.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1721604053476553122?s=20
@MarinaMedvin
Per Flatbush News, this man was arrested for attacking religious Jews with pepper spray in Brooklyn. He pepper sprayed multiple people who he ran up to on the street in a Jewish neighborhood. He was also seen tearing down kidnapped Israeli signs and making antisemitic remarks.
----
second post
The suspect is a female, not a male, I was corrected.
The suspect had a knife and pepper spray on her.
Do you have a brain injury?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 11:21:32 AM
What does "resistance is justified," "free Palestine" and "aprthied" mean?
Hint, these words and phrases have a specific meaning in this context.
IOW, you're making stuff up again.
Carry on.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 12:00:34 PM
Do you have a brain injury?
Do you mean like the Jew that was killed in LA by a Palestinian protestor when he was hit in the head with a megaphone?
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You started by claiming all this is nothing because it is not happening "more often" and "organized."
So, your position is I'm posting a random, unconnected crimes that all happen to be Palestinians attacking Jews in the US. A giant coincidence that has no connection to current world events ... just like the fact that we have a "historic" level of antisemitism where 2.4% of the population is Jewish, and they account for 60% of the hate crimes (per Christopher Wray, Head of the FBI, posted above).
I've been asking what we are going to do about this. Just accept a level of violence? Or, crack down on the hate speech, but that might run afoul of the First Amendment.
The real answer is more police, but we don't have it, mainly because so many have quit since 2020 and the defunding movements.
So, I guess we have to tell Jewish Americans sorry, and please try and die quietly when attacked so we all don't get upset.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:16:51 PM
The real answer is more police, but we don't have it, mainly because so many have quit since 2020 and the defunding movements.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/
Quote from: Pakuni on November 07, 2023, 12:05:43 PM
IOW, you're making stuff up again.
Carry on.
It must really make you uncomfortable to tell everyone what these words and phrases mean. So, pretend they are largely well-meaning slogans of peace made up by American College students in the last three weeks.
Like this one ... because this is the world-wide accepted definition of this phrase. So chanting this in front of Jews should not bother any of them. They are asking for love and understanding ... right?
https://x.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1720574880557539763?s=20
@RashidaTlaib
From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate. My work and advocacy is always centered in justice and dignity for all people no matter faith or ethnicity.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:22:44 PM
Like this one ... because this is the world-wide accepted definition of this phrase. So chanting this in front of Jews should not bother any of them. They are asking for love and understanding ... right?
You are (once again) shifting goalposts. The fact that anyone is "bothered" by someone's speech isn't the issue here.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 12:24:51 PM
You are (once again) shifting goalposts. The fact that anyone is "bothered" by someone's speech isn't the issue here.
I dunno. I've been told that one certain Jewish person doesn't "act like a Jewish person". Maybe there is an universal way Jewish people should think
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 12:18:41 PM
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-experiencing-police-hiring-crisis-rcna103600
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:16:51 PM
Do you mean like the Jew that was killed in LA by a Palestinian protestor when he was hit in the head with a megaphone?
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You started by claiming all this is nothing because it is not happening "more often" and "organized."
So, your position is I'm posting a random, unconnected crimes that all happen to be Palestinians attacking Jews in the US. A giant coincidence that has no connection to current world events ... just like the fact that we have a "historic" level of antisemitism where 2.4% of the population is Jewish, and they account for 60% of the hate crimes (per Christopher Wray, Head of the FBI, posted above).
I've been asking what we are going to do about this. Just accept a level of violence? Or, crack down on the hate speech, but that might run afoul of the First Amendment.
The real answer is more police, but we don't have it, mainly because so many have quit since 2020 and the defunding movements.
So, I guess we have to tell Jewish Americans sorry, and please try and die quietly when attacked so we all don't get upset.
Ahhhhhhh so you're just an out and about fascist. Got it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 12:24:51 PM
You are (once again) shifting goalposts. The fact that anyone is "bothered" by someone's speech isn't the issue here.
They are bothered by it because it is a call for violence against them, and we either try to rationalize it or ignore it.
The First Amendment does not protect violent speech. But we do not do anything about it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:34:18 PM
They are bothered by it because it is a call for violence against them, and we either try to rationalize it or ignore it.
The First Amendment does not protect violent speech. But we do not do anything about it.
I see you're easily confused as well.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:34:18 PM
They are bothered by it because it is a call for violence against them, and we either try to rationalize it or ignore it.
The First Amendment does not protect violent speech. But we do not do anything about it.
This has been explained to you, but a group chanting "from the river to the sea" is not unprotected speech.
You should read this because it outlines quite clearly the standard - this is the standard still in use today.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/395/444/
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:16:51 PM
I've been asking what we are going to do about this. Just accept a level of violence? Or, crack down on the hate speech, but that might run afoul of the First Amendment.
The real answer is more police, but we don't have it, mainly because so many have quit since 2020 and the defunding movements.
So, I guess we have to tell Jewish Americans sorry, and please try and die quietly when attacked so we all don't get upset.
We have had rampant anti-Semitism in America for centuries. Fits in nicely with the systemic racism - hell, some current elected officials even think slaves benefited from being slaves! Islamophobia, xenophobia and pure hatred for LGBTQ folks are more recent trends.
Many of the same groups - including some whose support is solicited by current elected officials - are happy participants in all that fun hatred. Stand back and stand by!
So yes, anti-Semitism is horrendous and growing. It makes me sick, and I don't know what to do about it.
Give us some solutions, Douchey. You say "more police" solves everything ... but if more police is indeed impossible because the woke ruined policing forever, as you seem to be saying, what's your solution?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 07:40:22 AM
Get outside. Take a walk. Read a book. Learn to crochet.
These are all things that would be better for you than watching a Senate hearing.
Hell yeah, turn a blind eye to what's happening all around you. The donkeys have relegated the U.S. to the level of a third world country. Is it any wonder how the world views us now.
Let me be the first to tell you, "I told you so," hey?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:22:44 PM
It must really make you uncomfortable to tell everyone what these words and phrases mean. So, pretend they are largely well-meaning slogans of peace made up by American College students in the last three weeks.
Sorry, but there is no possible interpretation in which the phrases "free Palestine" or "apartheid" translate into "Exterminate the Jews."
This is your problem, and why you have such little credibility here. Even when you make something approaching a salient point, you sabotage yourself with bad faith arguments and willful deceit like this.
You could have simply stated that the protests at UW show that anti-Israeli sentiment extends beyond the Ivies, and it would have been a fair point. Instead, you feel compelled to make hyperbolic, misleading and false claims. It's such an unnecessary form of self-sabotage, but apparently you just can't help yourself.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 12:55:54 PM
Hell yeah, turn a blind eye to what's happening all around you.
Senate hearings are political shows that are meant for feeble-minded talking points and not deep insights into policy. Which is probably why you enjoy them.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 12:55:54 PM
The donkeys have relegated the U.S. to the level of a third world country. Is it any wonder how the world views us now.
Really? You actually think the world views us worse now than they did under Bush and Trump? Talk about myopic nonsense.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 12:55:54 PM
Let me be the first to tell you, "I told you so," hey?
Yes. You are wrong again. Amazing.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 12:55:54 PM
Is it any wonder how the world views us now.
Ahem ...
Views of the U.S. are much more positive than negative across the countries we surveyed. A 23-nation median of 59% have a favorable view of the U.S., while only 30% have an unfavorable view.
In countries where we have not surveyed since 2019, views of the U.S. have improved. In general, they follow the same pattern as we saw in our 2021 survey:
Many countries gave the U.S. record low ratings during former president Donald Trump's administration and the start of the coronavirus pandemic, then saw a marked improvement after Biden took officeAttitudes toward Biden
As with ratings for the U.S. overall, Biden gets his highest marks in Poland, where 83% voice confidence in his leadership of world affairs. Roughly seven-in-ten or more also express confidence in Biden in Sweden, Kenya, Nigeria, Israel, the Netherlands and Germany. Majorities in about half of the countries polled give Biden positive ratings, although opinion of Biden is, on balance, more negative than positive in NATO allies Italy, Greece, France and Spain. And he gets his lowest ratings in Hungary.
In middle-income nations in Latin America, Africa and Asia, Biden receives significantly higher marks than his predecessor. For instance, 44% of Brazilians have confidence in Biden, compared with 28% for Trump in 2019. And in some countries where Trump was relatively popular, ratings for Biden are higher. For example, 71% of Nigerians say they have confidence in Biden, up from 58% for Trump four years ago. And 64% of Indians give Biden positive marks, compared with the 56% voicing confidence for Trump in 2019.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/06/27/international-views-of-biden-and-u-s-largely-positive/
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 11:55:41 AM
Another one in Brooklyn yesterday.
Yes, it is all random and has no common thread (a common thread can be an organizing idea).
https://x.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1721604053476553122?s=20
@MarinaMedvin
Per Flatbush News, this man was arrested for attacking religious Jews with pepper spray in Brooklyn. He pepper sprayed multiple people who he ran up to on the street in a Jewish neighborhood. He was also seen tearing down kidnapped Israeli signs and making antisemitic remarks.
----
second post
The suspect is a female, not a male, I was corrected.
The suspect had a knife and pepper spray on her.
That link is to the same incident as the link you posted right before this one.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 07, 2023, 01:08:15 PM
Ahem ...
Views of the U.S. are much more positive than negative across the countries we surveyed. A 23-nation median of 59% have a favorable view of the U.S., while only 30% have an unfavorable view.
In countries where we have not surveyed since 2019, views of the U.S. have improved. In general, they follow the same pattern as we saw in our 2021 survey: Many countries gave the U.S. record low ratings during former president Donald Trump's administration and the start of the coronavirus pandemic, then saw a marked improvement after Biden took office
4ever doesn't want other countries to view us favorably. He wants them to tremble with fear when they think of us. Its the "international policy by dick measuring contest" political philosophy.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 01:00:55 PM
Senate hearings are political shows that are meant for feeble-minded talking points and not deep insights into policy. Which is probably why you enjoy them.
Really? You actually think the world views us worse now than they did under Bush and Trump? Talk about myopic nonsense.
Yes. You are wrong again. Amazing.
And you were the guys whose hair was on fire for 4-5 years when things were going well? Now it's nothing to see here as the tornado is leaving a path of destruction and it ain't over yet
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 07, 2023, 01:17:43 PM
And you were the guys whose hair was on fire for 4-5 years when things were going well? Now it's nothing to see here as the tornado is leaving a path of destruction and it ain't over yet
4 out of 10
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 07, 2023, 01:17:43 PM
And you were the guys whose hair was on fire for 4-5 years when things were going well? Now it's nothing to see here as the tornado is leaving a path of destruction and it ain't over yet
Well it was 8 years actually, but then Obama was term-limited.
Are you condemning Tucks, Marge, and Gosar for their antisemitism?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 07, 2023, 01:28:38 PM
Well it was 8 years actually, but then Obama was term-limited.
Are you condemning Tucks, Marge, and Gosar for their antisemitism?
Hey T,
Happy Four Seasons Landscaping Press Conference Day!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 12:55:54 PM
Is it any wonder how the world views us now.
Should we be asking the coalition Biden pulled together to support Ukraine? The coalition to support Israel? Or perhaps the immigrants desperate to enter the country?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 07, 2023, 01:30:59 PM
Should we be asking the coalition to Biden pulled together to support Ukraine? The coalition to support Israel? Or perhaps the immigrants desperate to enter the country?
Maybe he just means Hungary, the greatest country in the world.*
*Source: Tucker
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 07, 2023, 01:17:43 PM
And you were the guys whose hair was on fire for 4-5 years when things were going well? Now it's nothing to see here as the tornado is leaving a path of destruction and it ain't over yet
Things were going well then. Things are going well now. The idea that there is some tornado leaving a path of destruction is absolutely laughable.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 07, 2023, 01:29:41 PM
Hey T,
Happy Four Seasons Landscaping Press Conference Day!
(https://images2.imgbox.com/30/05/JwpFJjCF_o.jpg) (https://imgbox.com/JwpFJjCF)
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 07, 2023, 01:46:19 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/30/05/JwpFJjCF_o.jpg) (https://imgbox.com/JwpFJjCF)
Nothing encapsulates the fall from greatness for America's Mayor quite like this except for when he tried getting that woman in bed in the second Borat film.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 12:22:44 PM
It must really make you uncomfortable to tell everyone what these words and phrases mean. So, pretend they are largely well-meaning slogans of peace made up by American College students in the last three weeks.
Like this one ... because this is the world-wide accepted definition of this phrase. So chanting this in front of Jews should not bother any of them. They are asking for love and understanding ... right?
https://x.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1720574880557539763?s=20
@RashidaTlaib
From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate. My work and advocacy is always centered in justice and dignity for all people no matter faith or ethnicity.
I agree that your interpretation of "From the River to the Sea" is a fair one. I would not fault anyone who interpreted that phrase as a call for violence against Jewish/Israeli people. However, it is not the only interpretation. Others mean it in a more positive way. Now that does not lessen the impact that it has on others, especially those of Jewish/Israeli descent. That's why we should always be careful of the language we use because our intent does not lessen our impact on others.
I'll give you an example that may hit home for you. For years, your moniker on this site was "Heisenberg". From interacting with you, I know that you chose the moniker in reference to the show "Breaking Bad", a harmless intent. An equally valid interpretation of you choosing that moniker could be that you were honoring Werner Heisenberg (which is what Walter Whyte was doing), a man who literally worked on making weapons on mass destruction for the Nazi party during WWII. While I know your intent was not antisemitic, it could be a reasonable interpretation by someone else.
None of this is to defend the use of that phrase. If anyone in my sphere of influence were to use that phrase I would call them out for it and remind them about the impact those words can have on those of Jewish/Israeli descent. But I think it is important to understand why some (not all, there are certainly plenty of people who use that phrase for your exact interpretation) say it so we can have a more effective dialogue going forward.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 07, 2023, 02:24:09 PM
I agree that your interpretation of "From the River to the Sea" is a fair one. I would not fault anyone who interpreted that phrase as a call for violence against Jewish/Israeli people. However, it is not the only interpretation. Others mean it in a more positive way. Now that does not lessen the impact that it has on others, especially those of Jewish/Israeli descent. That's why we should always be careful of the language we use because our intent does not lessen our impact on others.
I'll give you an example that may hit home for you. For years, your moniker on this site was "Heisenberg". From interacting with you, I know that you chose the moniker in reference to the show "Breaking Bad", a harmless intent. An equally valid interpretation of you choosing that moniker could be that you were honoring Werner Heisenberg (which is what Walter Whyte was doing), a man who literally worked on making weapons on mass destruction for the Nazi party during WWII. While I know your intent was not antisemitic, it could be a reasonable interpretation by someone else.
None of this is to defend the use of that phrase. If anyone in my sphere of influence were to use that phrase I would call them out for it and remind them about the impact those words can have on those of Jewish/Israeli descent. But I think it is important to understand why some (not all, there are certainly plenty of people who use that phrase for your exact interpretation) say it so we can have a more effective dialogue going forward.
On November 7, anyone protesting using the terms "free Palestine" or "No Apartheid" (and "River to Sea") should know by now that these are calls for the genocide of the Jewish race. And once that is understood, these definitions need to be accepted and dissembled, like a poster here was implying.
So when 100 Madison students are carrying these signs outside last night of the hall of arguably the most influential Jewish commentator in the country is speaking, they have to understand they are acting exactly like the Nazis they abhor and accuse others of being.
----
Heisenberg was famous for his Heisenberg uncertainty principle, for which he was awarded a Nobel Prize in 1927. It was this uncertainty principle that Walter White was referencing when he chose the Moniker Heisenberg, which was done before the creation of the Nazi party (1932).
Are all Heisenberg references assumed to be for his work done with the Nazi Atomic program? What if they are from his career in the 1920s, before the creation of the Nazi party in 1932? Is the use of Heisenberg still antisemitic? Should the Nobel Committee rescind his 1927 award? Are they antisemitic for not stripping him?
Analogy - Should the NFL strip OJ Simpson of all his awards for what he did later in life?
Sultan means "Leader of Muslims." And given his constant moral equivalence (which many Jewish leaders equate to antisemitism) under this moniker, is it equally as antisemitic as Heisenberg is? Or more so?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:05:19 PM
On November 7, anyone protesting using the terms "free Palestine" or "No Apartheid" (and "River to Sea") should know by now that these are calls for the genocide of the Jewish race. And once that is understood, these definitions need to be accepted and dissembled, like a poster here was implying.
So when 100 Madison students are carrying these signs outside last night of the hall of arguably the most influential Jewish commentator in the country is speaking, they have to understand they are acting exactly like the Nazis they abhor and accuse others of being.
My lord. That is absolute nonsense.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:05:19 PM
On November 7, anyone protesting using the terms "free Palestine" or "No Apartheid" (and "River to Sea") should know by now that these are calls for the genocide of the Jewish race. And once that is understood, these definitions need to be accepted and dissembled, like a poster here was implying.
So when 100 Madison students are carrying these signs outside last night of the hall of arguably the most influential Jewish commentator in the country is speaking, they have to understand they are acting exactly like the Nazis they abhor and accuse others of being.
----
Heisenberg was famous for his Heisenberg uncertainty principle, for which he was awarded a Nobel Prize in 1927. It was this uncertainty principle that Walter White was referencing when he chose the Moniker Heisenberg, which was done before the creation of the Nazi party (1932).
Are all Heisenberg references assumed to be for his work, don't the Nazi Atomic program? What is they are from his work in the 1920s, before the creation of the Nazi party in 1932? Is the use of Heisenberg still antisemitic? Should the Novel Committee rescind his 1927 award? Are they antisemitic for not stripping him?
Should the NFL strip OJ Simpson of all his awards for what he did later in life?
Sultan means "Leader of Muslims." And given his constant moral equivalence (which many Jewish leaders equate to antisemitism) using this moniker, is it equally as antisemitic as Heisenberg is? Or more so?
Just to check here, why do you have a problem with Muslims? What about them disgusts you? Why do you think they should be treated like dogs and eradicated from the planet?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 03:08:32 PM
Just to check here, why do you have a problem with Muslims? What about them disgusts you? Why do you think they should be treated like dogs and eradicated from the planet?
Show me where I said this?
A sign from this past weekend's rally in DC
----
Is it protected under the First Amendment or a call to violence?
What if this same sign had the rainbow flag and/or the BLM black square on it?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-Lowa9XYAAkx8j?format=jpg&name=900x900)
ADDED LATER
How about this one? Same rally?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-LpDXta8AAukfM?format=jpg&name=large)
"free Palestine" =\= Jewish genocide
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:10:13 PM
Show me where I said this?
Here, let me move onto another unrelated topic that is a rehashing of an older argument that has been resolved without addressing your question.
Don't you think it is awful that thousands of children are dying daily in the Gaza Strip? What do you think of the recent bombings of refugee camps? What do you think of the further destruction of Universities, Hospitals, and Schools by IDF air forces? Why do you condone this? Is it okay (as we've seen) for IDF soldiers in tanks to be targeting civilian vehicles that are clearly fleeing the war zone? Why do you condone the destruction of all infrastructure in the Gaza Strip? Isn't this something that can be one day referred to the ICC for war crimes? Why won't Israel open any crossings to provide aid for the Palestinian citizens they've rounded up in the South, and why does the IDF repeatedly bomb those locations that Israel specified as 'safe zones'. Why do you approve (implicitly) of Israel's killing of UN staff and international journalists? We all know you are a fervent "Muslim hater" (since you haven't denied it!), so why do you think it is okay for Israel's PM Bibi Netanyahu to say they will occupy the Gaza Strip after the war? I was lead to believe that this was just about destroying Hamas, not occupying the Gaza Strip. How do you justify this? What is your opinion of the continued killing of non-combatant Palestinians in the Occupied West Bank? Surely, these murders should be punished by the Israeli government and the citizens who carried out these murders will be arrested. Why don't you condemn these unlawful murders?
Maybe you get my point now.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 07, 2023, 03:19:22 PM
"free Palestine" =\= Jewish genocide
Because you don't want to be?
Where it came from ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Palestine_Movement
The Free Palestine Movement is a Palestinian Syrian armed movement and community organization that is led by the businessman Yasser Qashlaq and supports the Ba'athist government of Syria. The organization opposes the existence of Israel, and was mostly known for political activism and social services in favor of Palestinians in Syria and the Gaza Strip before 2012.
What it means
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/savage-nihilism-free-palestine
"Free Palestine"—the slogan, the fantasy, and the policy—has always consciously implied the mass murder of Jews in their towns, streets, shops, and living rooms. Few are willing to say so openly, but in many intellectual, professional, and popular circles in the Middle East and the West, the idea of Palestinian national liberation has long been framed in terms that condone or necessitate the indiscriminate killing of Jews. For more unambiguous actors such as Hamas and the Islamic Republic of Iran, freeing Palestine simply means the total eradication of Israel without qualification. This is not a polemical point, but a basic reality and fact of our lives that demands scrutiny.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:31:05 PM
Because you don't want to be?
Where it came from ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Palestine_Movement
The Free Palestine Movement is a Palestinian Syrian armed movement and community organization that is led by the businessman Yasser Qashlaq and supports the Ba'athist government of Syria. The organization opposes the existence of Israel, and was mostly known for political activism and social services in favor of Palestinians in Syria and the Gaza Strip before 2012.
What it means
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/savage-nihilism-free-palestine
"Free Palestine"—the slogan, the fantasy, and the policy—has always consciously implied the mass murder of Jews in their towns, streets, shops, and living rooms. Few are willing to say so openly, but in many intellectual, professional, and popular circles in the Middle East and the West, the idea of Palestinian national liberation has long been framed in terms that condone or necessitate the indiscriminate killing of Jews. For more unambiguous actors such as Hamas and the Islamic Republic of Iran, freeing Palestine simply means the total eradication of Israel without qualification. This is not a polemical point, but a basic reality and fact of our lives that demands scrutiny.
Would you be opposed if the signs said, "Freedom for Palestinians!"?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:31:05 PM
Because you don't want to be?
Where it came from ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Palestine_Movement
The Free Palestine Movement is a Palestinian Syrian armed movement and community organization that is led by the businessman Yasser Qashlaq and supports the Ba'athist government of Syria. The organization opposes the existence of Israel, and was mostly known for political activism and social services in favor of Palestinians in Syria and the Gaza Strip before 2012.
The phrase "free Palestine" and the Free Palestine Movement are not the same thing.
Once again, you're being intentionally deceitful.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:09:36 PM
Explain
One can be supportive of a Palestinian state without having someone claim they supporting genocide. One can criticize Israel's policy regarding the settlements in the West Bank and how it has walled off Gaza without having someone claim they are supporting genocide.
Hell, one could state that Israel shouldn't exist as a country without someone claiming they are supporting genocide.
Criticism of Israel as a state are not inherently antisemitic. Neither is support for Palestine and Palestinians.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 07, 2023, 03:43:03 PM
The phrase "free Palestine" and the Free Palestine Movement are not the same thing.
Once again, you're being intentionally deceitful.
You intentionally cut off the second part. I assume this was on purpose.
----
What it means
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/savage-nihilism-free-palestine
"Free Palestine"—the slogan, the fantasy, and the policy—has always consciously implied the mass murder of Jews in their towns, streets, shops, and living rooms. Few are willing to say so openly, but in many intellectual, professional, and popular circles in the Middle East and the West, the idea of Palestinian national liberation has long been framed in terms that condone or necessitate the indiscriminate killing of Jews. For more unambiguous actors such as Hamas and the Islamic Republic of Iran, freeing Palestine simply means the total eradication of Israel without qualification. This is not a polemical point, but a basic reality and fact of our lives that demands scrutiny.
----
It is not for you to define these words. Just like it is not for you to decide what an ethnic slur is. We are told what words are ethnic slurs, and then we avoid using them.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
One can be supportive of a Palestinian state without having someone claim they supporting genocide. One can criticize Israel's policy regarding the settlements in the West Bank and how it has walled off Gaza without having someone claim they are supporting genocide.
Hell, one could state that Israel shouldn't exist as a country without someone claiming they are supporting genocide.
Criticism of Israel as a state are not inherently antisemitic. Neither is support for Palestine and Palestinians.
So why is it so hard to accept the definitions of these phrases/words and their implications for the Israelis and all Jews? Why is it so hard to find something else to convey your unhappiness with Israel? Why constantly use the words of genocide and then dissemble them when you're called on it?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 03:24:54 PM
Here, let me move onto another unrelated topic that is a rehashing of an older argument that has been resolved without addressing your question.
Don't you think it is awful that thousands of children are dying daily in the Gaza Strip? What do you think of the recent bombings of refugee camps? What do you think of the further destruction of Universities, Hospitals, and Schools by IDF air forces? Why do you condone this? Is it okay (as we've seen) for IDF soldiers in tanks to be targeting civilian vehicles that are clearly fleeing the war zone? Why do you condone the destruction of all infrastructure in the Gaza Strip? Isn't this something that can be one day referred to the ICC for war crimes? Why won't Israel open any crossings to provide aid for the Palestinian citizens they've rounded up in the South, and why does the IDF repeatedly bomb those locations that Israel specified as 'safe zones'. Why do you approve (implicitly) of Israel's killing of UN staff and international journalists? We all know you are a fervent "Muslim hater" (since you haven't denied it!), so why do you think it is okay for Israel's PM Bibi Netanyahu to say they will occupy the Gaza Strip after the war? I was lead to believe that this was just about destroying Hamas, not occupying the Gaza Strip. How do you justify this? What is your opinion of the continued killing of non-combatant Palestinians in the Occupied West Bank? Surely, these murders should be punished by the Israeli government and the citizens who carried out these murders will be arrested. Why don't you condemn these unlawful murders?
Maybe you get my point now.
...and how do you separate Hamas from the Palestinians? Is a Zebra white with black stripes or black with white stripes? Did the allies leave Hospitals, Universities and Schools and POW camps untouched when we bombed Dresden and Berlin not to mention Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
We still have military bases in Germany and Japan. Why should Israel behave any differently from a provoked attack.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on November 07, 2023, 04:11:46 PM
...and how do you separate Hamas from the Palestinians? Is a Zebra white with black stripes or black with white stripes? Did the allies leave Hospitals, Universities and Schools and POW camps untouched when we bombed Dresden and Berlin not to mention Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
We still have military bases in Germany and Japan. Why should Israel behave any differently from a provoked attack.
The Geneva Conventions were after WW2 (1949) so we didn't have to do this all over again. Time for a history lesson, I think.
Your solution is to bomb everything and let God sort them out?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 03:24:54 PM
Here, let me move onto another unrelated topic that is a rehashing of an older argument that has been resolved without addressing your question.
Don't you think it is awful that thousands of children are dying daily in the Gaza Strip? What do you think of the recent bombings of refugee camps? What do you think of the further destruction of Universities, Hospitals, and Schools by IDF air forces? Why do you condone this? Is it okay (as we've seen) for IDF soldiers in tanks to be targeting civilian vehicles that are clearly fleeing the war zone? Why do you condone the destruction of all infrastructure in the Gaza Strip? Isn't this something that can be one day referred to the ICC for war crimes? Why won't Israel open any crossings to provide aid for the Palestinian citizens they've rounded up in the South, and why does the IDF repeatedly bomb those locations that Israel specified as 'safe zones'. Why do you approve (implicitly) of Israel's killing of UN staff and international journalists? We all know you are a fervent "Muslim hater" (since you haven't denied it!), so why do you think it is okay for Israel's PM Bibi Netanyahu to say they will occupy the Gaza Strip after the war? I was lead to believe that this was just about destroying Hamas, not occupying the Gaza Strip. How do you justify this? What is your opinion of the continued killing of non-combatant Palestinians in the Occupied West Bank? Surely, these murders should be punished by the Israeli government and the citizens who carried out these murders will be arrested. Why don't you condemn these unlawful murders?
Maybe you get my point now.
To sum. I believe Israel is right; the Palsentians are wrong. I think the Israelis want peace, and the Palestinians do not.
If Israel puts down its guns, there would be no Israel. If the Palsestains put down their weapons, they have their own state.
I believe the Israelis fight according to international law. I think the Palestinians do not.
I believe Israel fights to protect its women and children; I believe the Palestinians want to martyr their women and children.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 04:30:22 PM
To sum. I believe Israel is right; the Palsentians are wrong. I think the Israelis want peace, and the Palestinians do not.
If Israel had done its guns, there would be no Israel. If the Palsestains put down their weapons, they have their own state.
I believe the Israelis fight according to international law. I think the Palestinians do not.
I believe Israel fights to protect its women and children; I believe the Palestinians want to martyr their women and children.
No, address each point, just like you expect everyone to address all of yours. Be fair.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 04:22:38 PM
The Geneva Conventions were after WW2 (1949) so we didn't have to do this all over again. Time for a history lesson, I think.
Your solution is to bomb everything and let God sort them out?
1949 was the 4th Geneva Convention.
The first Geneva Convention outlining the rules of war was August 1864 (second was 1906, third was 1929). The founders of the Red Cross organized it during the American Civil War as a response to the inhuman treatment of civilians and prisoners.
What we did during WW2 was permitted under international rules, including the bombing of Dresden and the Nuclear attacks on Japan. Conversely, what Israel is doing is equally as permitted under international rules.
What Hamas is doing, using human shields, hiding among civilians, and putting military installations under hospitals, is illegal under international rules.
Hamas is breaking international Law. Israel is not. The Allied did not in WW2.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 04:33:59 PM
No, address each point, just like you expect everyone to address all of yours. Be fair.
Most of my points here are not addressed. I never demand anyone to address them like you are of me.
So, I will probably later today or tomorrow, given my time constraints.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 04:04:44 PM
You intentionally cut off the second part. I assume this was on purpose.
Yeah, I didn't have time.
Now that I have read it, the author (who, we should note is hardly objective here given his employer) makes tons of assertions, but fails to back them up.
For example:
"in many intellectual, professional, and popular circles in the Middle East and the West, the idea of Palestinian national liberation has long been framed in terms that condone or necessitate the indiscriminate killing of Jews. "
OK, who, particularly in the West, has long been saying this? And no, a handful of stupid kids at Harvard or a single professor at Cornell does not count as "many intellectual, professional, and popular circles."
Examples, please.
But his worst moment, by far, is this:
"when following the news of suicide bombings targeting Israeli civilians during the Second Intifada. Egypt's most prominent religious authorities declared the perpetrators to be martyrs and saints. In a way, it was not unlike the valorization and even canonization of those who destroyed livelihoods, burned property, and targeted police officers during the protests in America in the summer of 2020."Besides being factually incorrect - nobody canonized those who burned property and destroyed livelihoods - his attempt to draw a parallel between the George Floyd protestors and suicide bombers targeting civilians exposes his disingenuousness and disqualifies him from any serious consideration.
Quote
It is not for you to define these words. Just like it is not for you to decide what an ethnic slur is. We are told what words are ethnic slurs, and then we avoid using them.
But it is for you? For the Tablet?
Words have meanings, and the words "free Palestine" simply does not mean what you claim.
And no. it's not the same as an ethnic slur. That's not how etymology works.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 04:40:11 PM
Most of my points here are not addressed. I never demand anyone to address them like you are of me.
So, I will probably later today or tomorrow, given my time constraints.
Incorrect, and I doubt it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
1949 was the 4th Geneva Convention.
The first Geneva Convention outlining the rules of war was August 1864 (second was 1906, third was 1929). The founders of the Red Cross organized it during the American Civil War as a response to the inhuman treatment of civilians and prisoners.
What we did during WW2 was permitted under international rules, including the bombing of Dresden and the Nuclear attacks on Japan. Conversely, what Israel is doing is equally as permitted under international rules.
What Hamas is doing, using human shields, hiding among civilians, and putting military installations under hospitals, is illegal under international rules.
Hamas is breaking international Law. Israel is not. The Allied did not in WW2.
Disingenuous and incorrect. Seemingly, from your deranged point of view, Israel isn't capable of committing war crimes, and if they are, they weren't war crimes to begin with!
In order to "Free Palestine" doesn't "Palestine" actually have to exist?
A start
Don't you think it is awful that thousands of children are dying daily in the Gaza Strip?
It sickens me. But where did you get thousands of children a day? Source?
And how many of these children are 15 to 17 Hamas fighters?
What do you think of the recent bombings of refugee camps? What do you think of the further destruction of Universities, Hospitals, and Schools by IDF air forces? Why do you condone this? Is it okay (as we've seen) for IDF soldiers in tanks to be targeting civilian vehicles that are clearly fleeing the war zone?
First, what is a refugee?
Did you know that the UN has two definitions? One for the world and another for Palestinians only?
https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees
Palestine refugees are defined as "persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict."
UNRWA services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including adopted children, are also eligible for registration. When the Agency began operations in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, some 5.9 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.
----
To be clear, there are 6 million Palestinian refugees versus 8 million Jews in Israel. All descents from 750,000 from 1948. What are they refugees from? Isreal! The only way they stop being refugees is to genocide the Jews out of existence and allow them to move back to Haifa and Tel Aviv.
So, what is a Palestinian refugee camp like Jibala? It is not this, which most people think is a refugee camp.
(https://www.thelancet.com/cms/attachment/df096c66-e3a1-4efc-bc8d-16b581087c8f/fx1_lrg.jpg)
Instead, it is a permanent city that the UN runs. Here is a picture of Jibala, a poor third-world town, complete with multi-story buildings, schools, shops, and restaurants and businesses.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.globaltimes.cn%2FPortals%2F0%2Fattachment%2F2022%2F2022-11-09%2F3d16d6ef-5549-4eb9-84e4-3ad737309b86.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a75fcc92b4e752dea2af66b440ecf6915dae4a0f85f2d44553d56a6519b9c5ec&ipo=images)
Businesses? Yes, here are some pictures of a 2019 Tomato Paste Factory inside the Jibala refugee camp.
(https://www.globaltimes.cn/Portals/0/attachment/2019/2019-06-25/ba8a0df6-8c9f-4bad-85e4-c5d49cc7d3c1.jpeg) (https://www.globaltimes.cn/Portals/0/attachment/2019/2019-06-25/adb5434c-e133-4389-9c16-27b98118f8bd.jpeg)
So the proper question asked is why Hamas would have its tunnels and fighting infrastructure located in Jibala, under the schools and hospitals. Because it is a city of 116,000, providing it with many human shields. And since it has the name "refugee camp," that relies on people like you, Western progressives who do not understand the situation, to think that Israel is bombing tents full of people.
It worked; the outrage in the structure of your question above suggests you had no idea what Jibala was.
So, Israel is attacking Hamas' infrastructure. They dropped leaflets and sent Gazans What's App SMS and v-mails (about 80% of Gaza has mobile phones), telling them to leave).
Many did not, and it sickens me that Israel had to view them as military combatants, per article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention.
---
More later
Please no!!!!!
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 04:53:34 PM
Disingenuous and incorrect. Seemingly, from your deranged point of view, Israel isn't capable of committing war crimes, and if they are, they weren't war crimes to begin with!
What war crime do you think Israel has committed that has you so upset? Spell it out.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 05:18:26 PM
A start
Don't you think it is awful that thousands of children are dying daily in the Gaza Strip?
It sickens me. But where did you get thousands of children a day? Source?
And how many of these children are 15 to 17 Hamas fighters?
What do you think of the recent bombings of refugee camps? What do you think of the further destruction of Universities, Hospitals, and Schools by IDF air forces? Why do you condone this? Is it okay (as we've seen) for IDF soldiers in tanks to be targeting civilian vehicles that are clearly fleeing the war zone?
First, what is a refugee?
Did you know that the UN has two definitions? One for the world and another for Palestinians only?
https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees
Palestine refugees are defined as "persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict."
UNRWA services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including adopted children, are also eligible for registration. When the Agency began operations in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, some 5.9 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.
----
To be clear, there are 6 million Palestinian refugees versus 8 million Jews in Israel. All descents from 750,000 from 1948. What are they refugees from? Isreal! The only way they stop being refugees is to genocide the Jews out of existence and allow them to move back to Haifa and Tel Aviv.
So, what is a Palestinian refugee camp like Jibala? It is not this, which most people think is a refugee camp.
(https://www.thelancet.com/cms/attachment/df096c66-e3a1-4efc-bc8d-16b581087c8f/fx1_lrg.jpg)
Instead, it is a permanent city that the UN runs. Here is a picture of Jibala, a poor third-world town, complete with multi-story buildings, schools, shops, and restaurants and businesses.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.globaltimes.cn%2FPortals%2F0%2Fattachment%2F2022%2F2022-11-09%2F3d16d6ef-5549-4eb9-84e4-3ad737309b86.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a75fcc92b4e752dea2af66b440ecf6915dae4a0f85f2d44553d56a6519b9c5ec&ipo=images)
Businesses? Yes, here are some pictures of a 2019 Tomato Paste Factory inside the Jibala refugee camp.
(https://www.globaltimes.cn/Portals/0/attachment/2019/2019-06-25/ba8a0df6-8c9f-4bad-85e4-c5d49cc7d3c1.jpeg) (https://www.globaltimes.cn/Portals/0/attachment/2019/2019-06-25/adb5434c-e133-4389-9c16-27b98118f8bd.jpeg)
So the proper question asked is why Hamas would have its tunnels and fighting infrastructure located in Jibala, under the schools and hospitals. Because it is a city of 116,000, providing it with many human shields. And since it has the name "refugee camp," that relies on people like you, Western progressives who do not understand the situation, to think that Israel is bombing tents full of people.
It worked; the outrage in the structure of your question above suggests you had no idea what Jibala was.
So, Israel is attacking Hamas' infrastructure. They dropped leaflets and sent Gazans What's App SMS and v-mails (about 80% of Gaza has mobile phones), telling them to leave).
Many did not, and it sickens me that Israel had to view them as military combatants, per article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention.
---
More later
Heisy,
Is there anything that actually distinguishes a Palestinian from an Arab? The ethnicity didn't exist until the 1920's as far as I can tell. Also, there is a report that the UNRWA had 15 teachers celebrating the Oct 7th ignominious butchery of Jews.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 04:04:44 PM
So why is it so hard to accept the definitions of these phrases/words and their implications for the Israelis and all Jews? Why is it so hard to find something else to convey your unhappiness with Israel? Why constantly use the words of genocide and then dissemble them when you're called on it?
Why is it so hard for you to have a logical discussion?
I am not anti-Israel. I have made my point very clear. You are the one who tries to push that argument to the extreme because you can't address it otherwise.
Got it Heisey, you're for the ghettoization of all Palestinian people.
Next point.
How should the Palestinian people unshackle themselves from Hamas? They have no means to do this. No weapons, no resources, and they're pinned in by the walls around Gaza. What is your solution?
After all, these walls are in place to keep the Palestinians apart from the Jewish population in Israel. Of course, unless they have a work permit to enter Israel. Then they just have to be back in their pen by sundown.
Calling them one and the same is a very convenient solution. That allows them to be bombed mercilessly without feeling bad or it being considered a war crime.
Also, thanks for your encyclopaedia run down of what the Nakba was. I had no idea what a refugee is and what the conditions are. Truly enlightening stuff. This is also sarcasm.
What should the Palestinians do? Wait for the slow settler creep like they are doing in the Occupied West Bank? Where you're not really a citizen if you're not a Jewish person, and your home can be taken from you by force without so much as a peep from the local police. Since 2017 around 400,000 Israelis have settled in the West Bank. We are watching the forced displacement of Palestinians (Some would call this a Pogrom) and pretending that we're not watching exactly what happened in the 1800s in the US to the First People of the Americas.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 05:28:13 PM
What war crime do you think Israel has committed that has you so upset? Spell it out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Oh look, there's a whole wikipedia article about it. Took me only a couple of seconds to find it.
So either you didn't want to do a cursory search, or you didn't like the results you got. And it is 100% the latter.
I don't know how you can have Israel's boot so far down your throat that you don't see what is right in front of you, and the mass reporting about it.
This again is why you're not a serious person.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 05:48:24 PM
Why is it so hard for you to have a logical discussion?
I am not anti-Israel. I have made my point very clear. You are the one who tries to push that argument to the extreme because you can't address it otherwise.
Coulda fooled me, hey?
You've proven time and again how easy you are to fool.
Wrong, hey?
Says the guy who thinks life in America is as bad as a developing nation. You seem to have absolutely no idea how easy we have it in most regards.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 05:55:18 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Oh look, there's a whole wikipedia article about it. Took me only a couple of seconds to find it.
So either you didn't want to do a cursory search, or you didn't like the results you got. And it is 100% the latter.
I don't know how you can have Israel's boot so far down your throat that you don't see what is right in front of you, and the mass reporting about it.
This again is why you're not a serious person.
I don't see anything specifically in the Geneva conventions about Children's oncology wards! Checkmate
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 07, 2023, 05:51:29 PM
Got it Heisey, you're for the ghettoization of all Palestinian people.
Next po
After all, these walls are in place to keep the Palestinians apart from the Jewish population in Israel. Of course, unless they have a work permit to enter Israel. Then they just have to be back in their pen by sundown
The walls are to keep the Palestinians out so they don't kill Israelis. Not the other way around. They
have been offered peace three times and have rejected it to wage war against Israel. Why is it that the surrounding Arab countries don't want Palestinians in their borders? Because they are troublemakers They invaded Lebanon and turned the "Paris of the Middleeast" into a war zone and drove out the Christians.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 06:13:00 PM
Coulda fooled me, hey?
Thanks, but that's not really hard to do.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on November 07, 2023, 06:38:23 PM
The walls are to keep the Palestinians out so they don't kill Israelis. Not the other way around. They
have been offered peace three times and have rejected it to wage war against Israel. Why is it that the surrounding Arab countries don't want Palestinians in their borders? Because they are troublemakers They invaded Lebanon and turned the "Paris of the Middleeast" into a war zone and drove out the Christians.
Palestinians Invaded Lebanon and drove out the Christians?
Lol.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on November 07, 2023, 06:38:23 PM
The walls are to keep the Palestinians out so they don't kill Israelis. Not the other way around. They
have been offered peace three times and have rejected it to wage war against Israel. Why is it that the surrounding Arab countries don't want Palestinians in their borders? Because they are troublemakers They invaded Lebanon and turned the "Paris of the Middleeast" into a war zone and drove out the Christians.
LOL, WTF are you even talking about?
Palestine =\= Hamas
s/
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on November 07, 2023, 06:38:23 PM
The walls are to keep the Palestinians out so they don't kill Israelis. Not the other way around. They
have been offered peace three times and have rejected it to wage war against Israel. Why is it that the surrounding Arab countries don't want Palestinians in their borders? Because they are troublemakers They invaded Lebanon and turned the "Paris of the Middleeast" into a war zone and drove out the Christians.
Good post. I understand exactly what you're talking about ...
The Lebanese civil war of the 1970s/1980s saw the PLO drive the Christian population out. In other words, the PLO colonized Lebanon.
And yes, after WW2, Beirut, because of its heavy French influence and booming economy, was known as the "Paris of the Middle East." But once the Palestinians took it over, they wrecked as they have with Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, and the Golan.
You are also correct on why no other Muslim country wants any Palestinians. Egypt has built a massive wall with Gaza, is making another bigger war, and has its army on the border with Gaza and will shoot Palestinians before they allow them into the Sinai.
---
When they laugh and mock you ... you're right. When you are wrong, they write a post explaining why. Lately, we get a little explanation and lots of attacks and mocking.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 07, 2023, 07:52:47 PM
Palestine =\= Hamas
Germany =\= Nazis
The Allied killed 2 million German citizens from 1939 to 1945.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 06:13:00 PM
Coulda fooled me, hey?
Hey, did Tucks, Marge, Gosar et al also fool you?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 07:53:02 PM
s/
Good post. I understand exactly what you're talking about ...
The Lebanese civil war of the 1970s/1980s saw the PLO drive the Christian population out. In other words, the PLO colonized Lebanon.
And yes, after WW2, Beirut, because of its heavy French influence and booming economy, was known as the "Paris of the Middle East." But once the Palestinians took it over, they wrecked as they have with Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, and the Golan.
You are also correct on why no other Muslim country wants any Palestinians. Egypt has built a massive wall with Gaza, is making another bigger war, and has its army on the border with Gaza and will shoot Palestinians before they allow them into the Sinai.
---
When you laugh at mock you ... you're right. When you are wrong, the right post explains why. Lately, we get a lot of explanations and lots of attacks and mocking.
No. You get mocked when you are laughably wrong. Which is why it happens to you so often.
The Palestinians did not "invade" Lebanon. The PLO did not "colonize Lebanon." The Palestinians did not "take over Beirut."
Honestly...be better. You try to portray yourself as smart and a student of history. At least make an effort to live up to that OK?
How long are you gonna try to hammer home your flawed thinking? Repeating something a dozen times doesn't make it true, hey?
Worth a watch from an American Nurse with Doctor's Without Border's. Ya'll who are so bloodthirsty/indifferent towards civilian collateral damage would do well to view at least.
https://x.com/omarbaddar/status/1721959865508143339?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 08:08:36 PM
No. You get mocked when you are laughably wrong. Which is why it happens to you so often.
The Palestinians did not "invade" Lebanon. The PLO did not "colonize Lebanon." The Palestinians did not "take over Beirut."
Honestly...be better. You try to portray yourself as smart and a student of history. At least make an effort to live up to that OK?
Ever Hezbollah? Where are they located, when did they get there, and how did they get there?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 08:21:02 PM
Ever Hezbollah? Where are they located, when did they get there, and how did they get there?
Hezbollah are Shias who were in Lebanon when the civil war broke out and are now clients of Iran. The Palestinians are Sunnis.
So...wrong again.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 08:09:37 PM
How long are you gonna try to hammer home your flawed thinking? Repeating something a dozen times doesn't make it true, hey?
Crean sucks.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 07:53:02 PM
s/
Good post. I understand exactly what you're talking about ...
The Lebanese civil war of the 1970s/1980s saw the PLO drive the Christian population out. In other words, the PLO colonized Lebanon.
About a third of the Lebanese population is Christian. Nine of Lebanon's last 12 presidents, including two of the last three, were Christian. The presidents before, during and after the civil war were Christians.
Not only did the PLO not colonize Lebanon, but Palestinians aren't allowed citizenship in Lebanon.
You guys quite literally don't know what you're talking about.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 08:09:37 PM
How long are you gonna try to hammer home your flawed thinking? Repeating something a dozen times doesn't make it true, hey?
No, being true is what makes it true. Let me know when you are going to denounce these three.
Here are the receipts:
TuckemsTucker Carlson and the danger of antisemitism | The Spectator (//http://)
Tucker Carlson is many things but stupid is not one of them. So when he describes Ukraine's Jewish president ('a man called Zelensky') as 'sweaty and rat-like', 'a persecutor of Christians' and 'our shifty, dead-eyed Ukrainian friend', I suspect he knows exactly what he's doing.
Tucker Carlson is leaving Fox — will veiled antisemitism and the Great Replacement Theory go with him? - St. Louis Jewish Light (stljewishlight.org) (//http://?%20-%20St.%20Louis%20Jewish%20Light%20(stljewishlight.org))
He also frequently alluded to the great replacement theory, a conspiracy that Jews or other racial minorities are attempting to exterminate or replace white people, though Carlson's references to it were always just veiled enough to maintain plausible deniability against accusations of racism or antisemitism. Dog whistles were frequently employed on his show; he repeatedly vilified George Soros while lauding the nationalist and antisemitic leadership of Hungary's prime minister Viktor Orban.
GreeneMcCarthy Calls Out Marjorie Taylor Greene Over Holocaust Remarks : NPR (//http://McCarthy%20Calls%20Out%20Marjorie%20Taylor%20Greene%20Over%20Holocaust%20Remarks%20:%20NPR)
"This is deeply disturbing to the American Jewish community," he said. "This goes and goes and goes further and now Marjorie Taylor Greene is essentially saying wearing a mask — saving lives — is somehow equal to walking millions of innocent civilians to the gas chamber. It's just beyond the pale."
Greene has long embraced conspiracy theories and has a history of making racist and antisemitic remarks.
House Republican leaders condemn GOP candidate who made racist videos - POLITICO (//http://)
The candidate, Marjorie Taylor Greene, suggested that Muslims do not belong in government; thinks black people "are held slaves to the Democratic Party"; called George Soros, a Jewish Democratic megadonor, a Nazi;
Marjorie Taylor Greene's space laser and the age-old problem of blaming the Jews - Vox (//http://)
Let's get this out of the way: First-term Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene's claim that the 2018 California wildfires were ignited by a space laser controlled by a corporate cabal, including the Rothschild banking firm, is objectively ridiculous. It's okay to laugh about it.
And yet it is, at the same time, kind of horrifying. It's the latest in a long line of conspiracies about the Rothschild family, and those conspiracies are always, at root, anti-Semitic: Since the 19th century, people have used claims that this one particular wealthy family controls the world to cast aspersions on Jews in general.
Nor is this an isolated anti-Semitic incident for Greene. In December 2018, she shared a video on her Facebook page, which features a prominent British anti-Semite explaining that "Zionist supremacists have schemed to promote immigration and miscegenation." This is a conspiracy theory that seemingly motivated the Pittsburgh synagogue shooter's rampage in October 2018, less than two months before Greene's post. Despite concrete evidence that these ideas were endangering American Jews, Greene chose to spread them anyway.
GosarPaul Gosar promoted an antisemitic website that praised him for condemning 'Jewish warmongers' (azmirror.com) (//http://#39;Jewish%20warmongers'%20(azmirror.com))
Arizona Republican Congressman Paul Gosar on Sunday promoted an antisemitic website that denies the Holocaust, praises Adolf Hitler as "a man of valor" and features a large number of admittedly false articles.
Gosar to speak at confab featuring many with antisemitic ties – The Forward (//http://)
When Orbán spoke at CPAC's conference in Dallas last August, he invoked the Holocaust and assailed Jewish billionaire George Soros in an unleashed attack on progressive Democrats and the mainstream media. Gosar has also lambasted Soros, floating the false theory that the Holocaust survivor funded the neo-Nazis who organized a deadly 2017 rally in Charlottesville
Excellent Sam Harris podcast dropped tonight. He explains the Western progressive worldview, desperate for moral equivalence and secular explanations. It is like he has been reading this thread, and his podcast is a response to it.
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/340-the-bright-line-between-good-and-evil
Here is the transcript:
https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-bright-line-between-good-and-evil
Some highlights
We imagine that people everywhere, at bottom, want the same things: They want to live safe and prosperous lives. They want clean drinking water and good schools for their kids. And we imagine that if whole groups of people start behaving in extraordinarily destructive ways—practicing suicidal terrorism against noncombatants, for instance—they must have been pushed into extremis by others. What could turn ordinary human beings into suicide bombers, and what could get vast numbers of their neighbors to celebrate them as martyrs, other than their entire society being oppressed and humiliated to the point of madness by some malign power? So, in the case of Israel, many people imagine that the ghoulish history Palestinian terrorism simply indicates how profound the injustice has been on the Israeli side.
These are religious beliefs, sincerely held. They are beliefs about the moral structure of the universe. And they explain how normal people—even good ones—can commit horrific acts of violence against innocent civilians—on purpose, not as collateral damage—and still consider themselves good. When you believe that life in this world has no value, apart from deciding who goes to hell and who goes to Paradise, it becomes possible to feel perfectly at ease killing noncombatants, or even using your own women and children as human shields, because you know that any Muslims who get killed will go to Paradise for eternity.
If you don't understand that jihadists sincerely believe these things, you don't understand the problem Israel faces. The problem isn't merely Palestinian nationalism, or resource competition, or any other normal terrestrial grievance. In fact, the problem isn't even hatred, though there is enough of that to go around. The problem is religious certainty.
-----
In the West, there is now a large industry of apology and obfuscation designed to protect Muslims from having to grapple with these facts. The humanities and social science departments of every university are filled with scholars and pseudo-scholars—deemed to be experts in terrorism, religion, Islamic jurisprudence, anthropology, political science, and other fields—who claim that Muslim extremism is never what it seems. These experts insist that we can never take jihadists at their word and that none of their declarations about God, paradise, martyrdom, and the evils of apostasy have anything to do with their real motivations.
When one asks what the motivations of jihadists actually are, one encounters a tsunami of liberal delusion. Needless to say, the West is to blame for all the mayhem we see in Muslim societies. After all, how would we feel if outside powers and their mapmakers had divided our lands and stolen our oil? These beleaguered people just want what everyone else wants out of life. They want economic and political security. They want to be free to flourish in ways that would be fully compatible with a global civil society, if only they were given the chance.
Secular liberals imagine that jihadists are acting as anyone else would given a similar history of unhappy encounters with the West. And they totally discount the role that religious beliefs play in inspiring groups like Hamas and al-Qaeda, or even the Islamic State—to the point where it would be impossible for a jihadist to prove that he was doing anything for religious reasons.
Apparently, it's not enough for an educated person with economic opportunities to devote himself to the most extreme and austere version of Islam, to articulate his religious reasons for doing so ad nauseam, and even to go so far as to confess his certainty about martyrdom on video before blowing himself up in a crowd. Such demonstrations of religious fanaticism are somehow considered rhetorically insufficient to prove that he really believed what he said he believed. Of course, if a white supremacist goes on a killing spree in a black church, and says he did this because he hates black people and thinks the white race is under attack, this motive is accepted at face value without the slightest hesitation. This double standard is guaranteed to exonerate Islam every time. The game is rigged.
Do not mistake what I'm saying now for anti-Muslim bigotry. I'm talking about the consequences of ideas, not the ethnic origins of people. Not a word I've said, or will ever say on this topic has anything to do with race. And, the truth is, I'm not remotely xenophobic. I'm a xenophile. The Middle East has produced some of my favorite parts of culture—some of my favorite foods, and music, and architecture. Despite my better judgment, I absolutely love the sound of the Muslim call to prayer. Everything I'm saying about the problem of jihadism is about the problem of jihadism—the triumphal belief by some percentage of the world's Muslims that they must conquer the world for the one true faith through force, and that Paradise awaits anyone who would sacrifice his or her life to
that end.
-----
In 2014, six jihadis affiliated with the Pakistani Taliban attacked a school in Peshawar. These jihadis came from outside of Pakistan—there was a Chechen, two Afghans, and three Arabs. They murdered 145 people, 132 of whom were children. They burned a teacher alive in front of her students, and then killed all the children they could get their hands on. They didn't take any hostages. They had no list of demands. They intended to die to achieve martyrdom. And they did die, so they got at least half of what they wanted. It is very difficult for secular people to understand how this behavior could be possible. They assume only madmen would do this sort of thing.
But that's the horror of it—you don't have to be mad to be a jihadist. You don't even have to be a bad person. You just have to be a true believer. You just have to know, for sure, that you and all the good people will get everything you want after you die, and that the Creator of the Universe wants nothing more than for you to kill unbelievers. Here is what a supporter of the Pakistani Taliban said when interviewed about the school massacre:
Human life only has value among you worldly materialist thinkers. For us, this human life is only a tiny, meaningless fragment of our existence. Our real destination is the Hereafter. We don't just believe it exists, we know it does.
Death is not the end of life. It is the beginning of existence in a world much more beautiful than this. As you know, the [Urdu] word for death is "intiqaal." It means "transfer," not "end."
Paradise is for those of pure hearts. All children have pure hearts. They have not sinned yet... They have not yet been corrupted by [their kafir parents]. We did not end their lives. We gave them new ones in Paradise, where they will be loved more than you can imagine.
They will be rewarded for their martyrdom. After all, we also martyr ourselves with them. The last words they heard were the slogan of Takbeer ["Allah u Akbar"].
Allah Almighty says Himself in Surhah Al-Imran [3:169-170] that they are not dead.
You will never understand this. If your faith is pure, you will not mourn them, but celebrate their birth into Paradise.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 07, 2023, 08:45:20 PM
First thing ya got right this year, hey?
How's election night treat in' ya?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 07, 2023, 08:55:06 PM
How's election night treat in' ya?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Naked_%26_Afraid_logo.jpg)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 08:45:53 PM
Excellent Sam Harris podcast dropped tonight. He explains the Western progressive worldview, desperate for moral equivalence and secular explanations. It is like he has been reading this thread, and his podcast is a response to it.
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/340-the-bright-line-between-good-and-evil
Here is the transcript:
https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-bright-line-between-good-and-evil
Some highlights
We imagine that people everywhere, at bottom, want the same things: They want to live safe and prosperous lives. They want clean drinking water and good schools for their kids. And we imagine that if whole groups of people start behaving in extraordinarily destructive ways—practicing suicidal terrorism against noncombatants, for instance—they must have been pushed into extremis by others. What could turn ordinary human beings into suicide bombers, and what could get vast numbers of their neighbors to celebrate them as martyrs, other than their entire society being oppressed and humiliated to the point of madness by some malign power? So, in the case of Israel, many people imagine that the ghoulish history Palestinian terrorism simply indicates how profound the injustice has been on the Israeli side.
These are religious beliefs, sincerely held. They are beliefs about the moral structure of the universe. And they explain how normal people—even good ones—can commit horrific acts of violence against innocent civilians—on purpose, not as collateral damage—and still consider themselves good. When you believe that life in this world has no value, apart from deciding who goes to hell and who goes to Paradise, it becomes possible to feel perfectly at ease killing noncombatants, or even using your own women and children as human shields, because you know that any Muslims who get killed will go to Paradise for eternity.
If you don't understand that jihadists sincerely believe these things, you don't understand the problem Israel faces. The problem isn't merely Palestinian nationalism, or resource competition, or any other normal terrestrial grievance. In fact, the problem isn't even hatred, though there is enough of that to go around. The problem is religious certainty.
-----
In the West, there is now a large industry of apology and obfuscation designed to protect Muslims from having to grapple with these facts. The humanities and social science departments of every university are filled with scholars and pseudo-scholars—deemed to be experts in terrorism, religion, Islamic jurisprudence, anthropology, political science, and other fields—who claim that Muslim extremism is never what it seems. These experts insist that we can never take jihadists at their word and that none of their declarations about God, paradise, martyrdom, and the evils of apostasy have anything to do with their real motivations.
When one asks what the motivations of jihadists actually are, one encounters a tsunami of liberal delusion. Needless to say, the West is to blame for all the mayhem we see in Muslim societies. After all, how would we feel if outside powers and their mapmakers had divided our lands and stolen our oil? These beleaguered people just want what everyone else wants out of life. They want economic and political security. They want to be free to flourish in ways that would be fully compatible with a global civil society, if only they were given the chance.
Secular liberals imagine that jihadists are acting as anyone else would given a similar history of unhappy encounters with the West. And they totally discount the role that religious beliefs play in inspiring groups like Hamas and al-Qaeda, or even the Islamic State—to the point where it would be impossible for a jihadist to prove that he was doing anything for religious reasons.
Apparently, it's not enough for an educated person with economic opportunities to devote himself to the most extreme and austere version of Islam, to articulate his religious reasons for doing so ad nauseam, and even to go so far as to confess his certainty about martyrdom on video before blowing himself up in a crowd. Such demonstrations of religious fanaticism are somehow considered rhetorically insufficient to prove that he really believed what he said he believed. Of course, if a white supremacist goes on a killing spree in a black church, and says he did this because he hates black people and thinks the white race is under attack, this motive is accepted at face value without the slightest hesitation. This double standard is guaranteed to exonerate Islam every time. The game is rigged.
Do not mistake what I'm saying now for anti-Muslim bigotry. I'm talking about the consequences of ideas, not the ethnic origins of people. Not a word I've said, or will ever say on this topic has anything to do with race. And, the truth is, I'm not remotely xenophobic. I'm a xenophile. The Middle East has produced some of my favorite parts of culture—some of my favorite foods, and music, and architecture. Despite my better judgment, I absolutely love the sound of the Muslim call to prayer. Everything I'm saying about the problem of jihadism is about the problem of jihadism—the triumphal belief by some percentage of the world's Muslims that they must conquer the world for the one true faith through force, and that Paradise awaits anyone who would sacrifice his or her life to
that end.
-----
In 2014, six jihadis affiliated with the Pakistani Taliban attacked a school in Peshawar. These jihadis came from outside of Pakistan—there was a Chechen, two Afghans, and three Arabs. They murdered 145 people, 132 of whom were children. They burned a teacher alive in front of her students, and then killed all the children they could get their hands on. They didn't take any hostages. They had no list of demands. They intended to die to achieve martyrdom. And they did die, so they got at least half of what they wanted. It is very difficult for secular people to understand how this behavior could be possible. They assume only madmen would do this sort of thing.
But that's the horror of it—you don't have to be mad to be a jihadist. You don't even have to be a bad person. You just have to be a true believer. You just have to know, for sure, that you and all the good people will get everything you want after you die, and that the Creator of the Universe wants nothing more than for you to kill unbelievers. Here is what a supporter of the Pakistani Taliban said when interviewed about the school massacre:
Human life only has value among you worldly materialist thinkers. For us, this human life is only a tiny, meaningless fragment of our existence. Our real destination is the Hereafter. We don't just believe it exists, we know it does.
Death is not the end of life. It is the beginning of existence in a world much more beautiful than this. As you know, the [Urdu] word for death is "intiqaal." It means "transfer," not "end."
Paradise is for those of pure hearts. All children have pure hearts. They have not sinned yet... They have not yet been corrupted by [their kafir parents]. We did not end their lives. We gave them new ones in Paradise, where they will be loved more than you can imagine.
They will be rewarded for their martyrdom. After all, we also martyr ourselves with them. The last words they heard were the slogan of Takbeer ["Allah u Akbar"].
Allah Almighty says Himself in Surhah Al-Imran [3:169-170] that they are not dead.
You will never understand this. If your faith is pure, you will not mourn them, but celebrate their birth into Paradise.
What Harris is saying is so obvious I don't know why it's even a little controversial.
Will you say the same about evangelicals, who some 60% believe we are living in the end times, and their wholehearted support which is driven off the belief that the state of Israel is crucial to fulfilling biblical prophesy?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 07, 2023, 09:15:37 PM
What Harris is saying is so obvious I don't know why it's even a little controversial.
Really going out on a limb with his bold take that fanatical religious terrorism is bad.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 07, 2023, 09:53:26 AM
I had an interesting discussion with my SIL about some of the "positive" side effects of the last month. She sent me a couple Op-Eds and had some personal stories about a surprising number of Jews reconnecting with their cultural identity and heritage in the wake of 10/7 and the reaction.
It's not some gut reaction Zionism and Muslim hate, or a revenge on Gaza, but rather feeling a connection and solidarity with the Jewish community, especially in the wake of the rise in very visible anti-Semitism worldwide. Yes it's been on the rise for some time but a profound catalyst obviously moves people differently.
Sure some people will use the sentiment for negative actions and others will accuse people of using their Judaism to cover for Islamophobia or the like, but I think as a net it can be a positive. I've certainly seen it in my wife's reconnecting feelings and emotions the last month as a secular, non practicing Jew. The Jewish people have found strength and resilience in collectivism and community in the face of persecution or tragedy for hundreds of years, it's one of their most beautiful cultural touchstones. It also powers their space lasers
I agree. A lot of my Jewish friends and colleagues have been feeling much more connected to their community. Honestly though, I've seen a rise in this since COVID lockdowns, but the recent terrorist attack has been a real catalyst.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 07, 2023, 09:22:25 PM
Will you say the same about evangelicals, who some 60% believe we are living in the end times, and their wholehearted support which is driven off the belief that the state of Israel is crucial to fulfilling biblical prophesy?
So, only when we start getting Christian suicide bombers ... then we can talk.
----
There have been nearly 50,000 acts of Islamic terrorism in the last 40 years—and the French group that maintains a database of these attacks [https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/islamist-terrorist-attacks-in-the-world-1979-2021/] considers that to be an undercount. Ninety percent of them have occurred in Muslim countries. Most have nothing to do with Israel or the Jews. There have been 82 attacks in France and over 2000 in Pakistan during this period. You want France to be more like Pakistan? You just need more jihadists. You just need more people susceptible to becoming jihadists, which is a transformation that can happen very quickly—just as quickly as new beliefs can take root in a person's mind. You just need a wider Muslim community that doesn't condemn jihadism, but tacitly admits that the theology that inspires it will be true and perfect until the end of the world. You just need millions of people who will protest Israel for defending itself, or call for the deaths of cartoonists for depicting the prophet Muhammad, and yet not make a peep about the jihadist atrocities that occur daily, all over the world, in the name of their religion.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 07, 2023, 09:23:27 PM
Really going out on a limb with his bold take that fanatical religious terrorism is bad.
It's not just that it's bad, it's how widespread and/or accepted it is. Or how many people blame someone other than the fanatics and their enablers for it. The West in general, and the US and Israel in particular, are not to blame for the fanaticism that pervades Islam. Until Islam purges itself of this cancer any real peace is impossible.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 07, 2023, 09:22:25 PM
Will you say the same about evangelicals, who some 60% believe we are living in the end times, and their wholehearted support which is driven off the belief that the state of Israel is crucial to fulfilling biblical prophesy?
Dumbest comment in a thread full of them. Peaceful people can believe whatever whacky things they want and it matters little. People who think cutting off people's head or strapping suicide vests on their own children are not exactly the same thing.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 07, 2023, 05:48:24 PM
Why is it so hard for you to have a logical discussion?
I am not anti-Israel. I have made my point very clear. You are the one who tries to push that argument to the extreme because you can't address it otherwise.
The House just condemned Tlaib for trying to redefine "from the river to the sea." And for this to happen, 22 Democrats had to cross the aisle to do it. A similar censure failed last week. So, the difference in the previous week was her trying to redefine "from the river to the sea."
The House now has more moral clarity on the meaning of these phrases and statements than you.
This is how far you have sunk in your moral confusion.
So, I'll ask again, "river to the sea," Free Palestine," and "Apartheid state" are all calls, with nice words, to genocide the Jewish people.
Do you now agree?
----
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-votes-censure-rashida-tlaib-over-anti-israel-comments
The House of Representatives has voted to censure Rep. Rashida Tlaib, D-Mich., in a 234 - 188 vote on Tuesday night.
The punishment, while largely symbolic, was a formal public rebuke of her most recent anti-Israel comments made in the wake of the Jewish nation's war against terror group Hamas.
Twenty-two Democrats voted with 212 Republicans to censure Tlaib.
Her critics have pointed out that the rallying cry implicitly calls for the destruction of Israel as a state. Hamas has also co-opted the phrase.
"It is fundamentally a call for a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, territory that includes the State of Israel, which would mean the dismantling of the Jewish state," the Anti-Defamation League's website says. "It is an antisemitic charge denying the Jewish right to self-determination, including through the removal of Jews from their ancestral homeland."
Tlaib has remained unrepentant over her use of the phrase.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 07, 2023, 09:23:27 PM
Really going out on a limb with his bold take that fanatical religious terrorism is bad.
How about the second part of his argument, whatever proportionality it takes to eliminate it is justified.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 10:38:00 PM
How about the second part of his argument, whatever proportionality it takes to eliminate it is justified.
I don't see that in the transcript you posted, but if that's what he said, he's obviously wrong.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:05:19 PM
On November 7, anyone protesting using the terms "free Palestine" or "No Apartheid" (and "River to Sea") should know by now that these are calls for the genocide of the Jewish race. And once that is understood, these definitions need to be accepted and dissembled, like a poster here was implying.
So when 100 Madison students are carrying these signs outside last night of the hall of arguably the most influential Jewish commentator in the country is speaking, they have to understand they are acting exactly like the Nazis they abhor and accuse others of being.
----
Heisenberg was famous for his Heisenberg uncertainty principle, for which he was awarded a Nobel Prize in 1927. It was this uncertainty principle that Walter White was referencing when he chose the Moniker Heisenberg, which was done before the creation of the Nazi party (1932).
Are all Heisenberg references assumed to be for his work done with the Nazi Atomic program? What if they are from his career in the 1920s, before the creation of the Nazi party in 1932? Is the use of Heisenberg still antisemitic? Should the Nobel Committee rescind his 1927 award? Are they antisemitic for not stripping him?
None of this disputes anything you are trying to respond to. My point is words and phrases can have multiple intended meanings...and even when the intended meaning is positive, they can still have negative impacts on others. Despite everything you wrote, Werner Heisenberg still designed weapons of mass destruction for the Nazis. It would not be unreasonable for a person to find your former moniker to be antisemitic even though your intent was not. Ultimately impact is more important, but intent is important context.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:05:19 PM
Analogy - Should the NFL strip OJ Simpson of all his awards for what he did later in life?
This is a terrible analogy. I have said nothing about past achievements being removed. The correct analogy here would be, should the NFL in 2023 name an award after O.J. Simpson? The answer is obviously no. That being said I acknowledge that I know you weren't trying to honor a former Nazi bomb maker with your former moniker. Just pointing out that it wouldn't have been unreasonable for someone to interpret it that way.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:05:19 PM
Sultan means "Leader of Muslims." And given his constant moral equivalence (which many Jewish leaders equate to antisemitism) under this moniker, is it equally as antisemitic as Heisenberg is? Or more so?
You'll have to connect those dots for me. I don't see the connection between being a leader of muslims and antisemitism.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 03:15:43 PM
A sign from this past weekend's rally in DC
----
Is it protected under the First Amendment or a call to violence?
What if this same sign had the rainbow flag and/or the BLM black square on it?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-Lowa9XYAAkx8j?format=jpg&name=900x900)
ADDED LATER
How about this one? Same rally?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-LpDXta8AAukfM?format=jpg&name=large)
For the third time in this thread, "call to violence" is not one of the exceptions for the first amendment. No matter how many times you say it, it doesn't will that into existence.
To answer your question, yes, all of these signs and your hypothetical examples are/would be examples of protected free speech. Terrible, awful protected free speech that I denounce with my own free speech, I encourage others to denounce with their free speech, and I support private companies using their free speech by firing/refusing to hire them for their deplorable free speech.
I suspect you know this as you have claimed in the (recent) past to be a champion of free speech. But it is convenient to forget your commitment to free speech when you have the opportunity to wage a culture war on universities for having the audacity to follow the constitution. If you truly champion free speech, you would applaud (most) universities for standing strong in their commitment to free speech despite the financial repercussions some of them are facing.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 07, 2023, 10:18:47 PM
Dumbest comment in a thread full of them. Peaceful people can believe whatever whacky things they want and it matters little. People who think cutting off people's head or strapping suicide vests on their own children are not exactly the same thing.
Substantially monetarily propping up a state and government who pays little thought to pouring billions in high powered explosives into exterminating others' children is perfectly acceptable though. So just an extra couple of steps.
Glad you have that line drawn in the sand.
Just say you don't like Muslims and save us the time instead of generalizing extremists from a religion of over a billion people worldwide.
There's plenty of Christian extremism/violence even right in all of our back yards. But just because they aren't currently in a phase of self immolation, it gets the moral high ground? They are a significant propagator of antisemitism in our country. Something it rightfully seems you do care a lot about speaking up against.
Extremism is bad in all regards and should be treated as such. As is bigotry, which I certainly hope you or anyone here do not engage in.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 07, 2023, 08:55:06 PM
How's election night treat in' ya?
How's that Tlaib censorship workin' out for ya, hey?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 07, 2023, 11:03:09 PM
For the third time in this thread, "call to violence" is not one of the exceptions for the first amendment. No matter how many times you say it, it doesn't will that into existence.
https://www.justsecurity.org/74217/incitement-to-violence-aint-free-speech/
https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1/first-amendment-limits--fighting-words--hostile-audiences--and-t.html
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 07, 2023, 11:24:39 PM
Substantially monetarily propping up a state and government who pays little thought to pouring billions in high powered explosives into exterminating others' children is perfectly acceptable though. So just an extra couple of steps.
This is an outrageous characterization of Israel.
Just say your antisemitic and save us all the time.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 07, 2023, 11:24:39 PM
Just say you don't like Muslims and save us the time instead of generalizing extremists from a religion of over a billion people worldwide.
Muslims no
Palestinians and their Jihadist interpretations of Islam, yes. This ideology needs to be eliminated.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 07, 2023, 11:24:39 PM
There's plenty of Christian extremism/violence even right in all of our back yards. But just because they aren't currently in a phase of self immolation, it gets the moral high ground? They are a significant propagator of antisemitism in our country. Something it rightfully seems you do care a lot about speaking up against.
I think we found the extremist on this board because only a very confused person would think that whatever Christian extremism exists in the United States, and you'll have to give us examples, is morally equivalent to what happened that October 7.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 10:21:22 PM
The House just condemned Tlaib for trying to redefine "from the river to the sea." And for this to happen, 22 Democrats had to cross the aisle to do it. A similar censure failed last week. So, the difference in the previous week was her trying to redefine "from the river to the sea."
The House now has more moral clarity on the meaning of these phrases and statements than you.
This is how far you have sunk in your moral confusion.
So, I'll ask again, "river to the sea," Free Palestine," and "Apartheid state" are all calls, with nice words, to genocide the Jewish people.
Do you now agree?
Not really. And it most certainly is protected speech which was my point all along.
Regardless none of this matters. Israel isn't going away. It's existence isn't threatened. It has every right to defend itself.
But that doesn't mean it's beyond criticism.
But honestly I am growing weary of your culture war and your desire to paint everyone who disagree with you as extremist. You constantly get facts wrong. You are dishonest. Really a great example of what's gone wrong with civil discourse in this country.
Palestinians =\= Hamas
Why don't the other Arab countries take in, with open arms, their Palestinian brothers, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 07, 2023, 08:55:06 PM
How's election night treat in' ya?
A positive night for American democracy -- and especially for women's rights to control their own reproductive systems. Thanks for asking!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 03:25:22 AM
How's that Tlaib censorship workin' out for ya, hey?
Outstanding -- and long overdue. Thanks for asking!
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 07, 2023, 08:15:15 PM
Worth a watch from an American Nurse with Doctor's Without Border's. Ya'll who are so bloodthirsty/indifferent towards civilian collateral damage would do well to view at least.
https://x.com/omarbaddar/status/1721959865508143339?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
I was going to post this. Absolutely heartbreaking stuff.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on November 07, 2023, 06:38:23 PM
The walls are to keep the Palestinians out so they don't kill Israelis. Not the other way around. They
have been offered peace three times and have rejected it to wage war against Israel. Why is it that the surrounding Arab countries don't want Palestinians in their borders? Because they are troublemakers They invaded Lebanon and turned the "Paris of the Middleeast" into a war zone and drove out the Christians.
Absolutely incorrect. Remember when Germany was forced into peace in 1919 by a vengeful France? What does history teach us about this?
The surrounding Arab countries don't 'want' Palestinians because they know taking them gives Israel the go ahead to permanently occupy the land. Which it seems they're already planning on doing. It has nothing to do with them being 'troublemakers'.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 06:17:33 AM
Absolutely incorrect. Remember when Germany was forced into peace in 1919 by a vengeful France? What does history teach us about this?
The surrounding Arab countries don't 'want' Palestinians because they know taking them gives Israel the go ahead to permanently occupy the land. Which it seems they're already planning on doing. It has nothing to do with them being 'troublemakers'.
Why didn't they want them when they controlled the West Bank and Golan Heights? Which Arab states care about the Palestinians?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 05:49:11 AM
Not really. And it most certainly is protected speech which was my point all along.
Regardless none of this matters. Israel isn't going away. It's existence isn't threatened. It has every right to defend itself.
But that doesn't mean it's beyond criticism.
But honestly I am growing weary of your culture war and your desire to paint everyone who disagree with you as extremist. You constantly get facts wrong. You are dishonest. Really a great example of what's gone wrong with civil discourse in this country.
"It's existence isn't threatened". This is seriously ridiculous Fluffy and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 06:31:48 AM
"It's existence isn't threatened". This is seriously ridiculous Fluffy and you should be ashamed of yourself.
It's not. It will be around for a long time. Who has the will and the ability to destroy them?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 06:08:58 AM
Why don't the other Arab countries take in, with open arms, their Palestinian brothers, hey?
Like we should take in our Christian brothers from Latin America with open arms ai''nna?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 06:27:52 AM
Why didn't they want them when they controlled the West Bank and Golan Heights? Which Arab states care about the Palestinians?
I don't know what you're asking. Golan is part of Syria, and the West Bank is part of Jordan. The rest of the world outside of Israel and the US recognizes this. They are occupied territories being administered by Israel under the guise of 'security'.
Are you suggesting that the surrounding Arab states don't care about Palestinian Arabs?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 06:31:48 AM
"It's existence isn't threatened". This is seriously ridiculous Fluffy and you should be ashamed of yourself.
No, he's right. Israel won't cease to exist. No one is wiping them off of a map no matter how hard they'd try. Don't be silly.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 06:38:06 AM
Like we should take in our Christian brothers from Latin America with open arms ai''nna?
The perfect analogy
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 03:25:22 AM
How's that Tlaib censorship workin' out for ya, hey?
Good. She's an idiot and wrong. She's on the wrong side and deserves to be denounced.
Great night for you, though? Held onto Mississippi. Tough breaks in Kentucky, Virginia and Ohio for ya, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 06:08:58 AM
Why don't the other Arab countries take in, with open arms, their Palestinian brothers, hey?
This has been explained several times in this thread already.
You can lead a dentist to reality, but you can't make him embrace it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 06:38:06 AM
Like we should take in our Christian brothers from Latin America with open arms ai''nna?
That's different!
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 03:55:31 AM
https://www.justsecurity.org/74217/incitement-to-violence-aint-free-speech/
https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1/first-amendment-limits--fighting-words--hostile-audiences--and-t.html
So are you posting these articles as an admission that you were wrong? Cause neither of these state that a "call to violence" is an exception to the first ammendent as you've repeatedly claimed.
Secondly, since you posted these articles as sources to try (and fail) to prove yourself correct, can I assume that you agree with them? Cause if so, I'm surprised to see that you believe that Trump sound be convicted for his role in January 6 because that's what the first article is arguing.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 03:25:22 AM
How's that Tlaib censorship workin' out for ya, hey?
You must be in favor of censoring Marge and Gosar, oona?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 05:49:11 AM
Not really. And it most certainly is protected speech which was my point all along.
Regardless none of this matters. Israel isn't going away. It's existence isn't threatened. It has every right to defend itself.
But that doesn't mean it's beyond criticism.
But honestly I am growing weary of your culture war and your desire to paint everyone who disagree with you as extremist. You constantly get facts wrong. You are dishonest. Really a great example of what's gone wrong with civil discourse in this country.
I understand you hold the only correct opinion, and once you stated it, you do not want to be challenged. That you've been very clear for years.
——-
I did not ask if they were protected speech, I asked you if you thought they were phrases and words that call for violence against the Jewish people in Israel. You did not answer for the third time.
You don't think this is a war for the existence of Israel. You've made this very clear many times. Because you think their army is strong enough to prevent the demise of Israel. So you use carefully chosen words. "Israel isn't going away." "It's Existence is in threatened."
You then say Israel has the right to defend itself. Against what exactly? Be specific what are they defending against and how far can they go to defend themselves from whatever threat you think they have?
——-
I have said that those words and phrases that the kids in Madison were chanting and carrying on their signs were calls for genocide against Israel. We can debate whether they are protected speech, but I didn't ask you that. And I said that I'm very much on the fence is the weather not it is protected speech. But those words and phrases are definitely hate speech and universities to have restrictions against the use of hate speech.
I've been very clear Israel is defending their existence, and they have to remove the threat of a Hamas and Islamic Jihadism. And to this end, if a Hamas and Jihadis hide under schools, hospitals, and behind human shields, then they have turned those schools, hospital, said human shields into military targets.
Israel will make every effort to reduce civilian casualties, but they will not be stopped by the prospects of civilian casualties. And the fact that there are civilian casualties as the attack military targets does not make their actions war crimes. So, if they bomb a hospital or a refugee camp, if they shoot a human shield, these are unfortunate collateral damage in a war against military targets.
International law governing war, and the Geneva convention, are all structured to make sure that military targets and civilian targets are separated. That's why the first articles of the Geneva convention say soldiers must wear uniforms so they could be distinguished from the civilian population. This civilian population must be separated from the battlefield.
Hamas is responsible for wearing a uniform is responsible for moving its citizens off the battlefield. They do not wear uniforms and they do not move their civilians from the battlefield. Therefore, they are committing war crimes, not Israel. Every time Hamas or PIJ fire a rocket it is intended to kill civilians, that is a war crime. Every time Israel drop a bomb on a military target, civilians are collateral damage, that is not a war crime.
It's war and war is nothing but a mistake. But I'm not going to draw any moral equivalence between what Israel's doing and what Hamas is doing.
Israel is on the right side of this war, and the Palestinians are on the wrong side of this war. I have no moral confusion about this.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 07, 2023, 10:21:22 PM
The House just condemned Tlaib for trying to redefine "from the river to the sea." And for this to happen, 22 Democrats had to cross the aisle to do it. A similar censure failed last week. So, the difference in the previous week was her trying to redefine "from the river to the sea."
The House now has more moral clarity on the meaning of these phrases and statements than you.
This is how far you have sunk in your moral confusion.
So, I'll ask again, "river to the sea," Free Palestine," and "Apartheid state" are all calls, with nice words, to genocide the Jewish people.
Do you now agree?
----
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-votes-censure-rashida-tlaib-over-anti-israel-comments
The House of Representatives has voted to censure Rep. Rashida Tlaib, D-Mich., in a 234 - 188 vote on Tuesday night.
The punishment, while largely symbolic, was a formal public rebuke of her most recent anti-Israel comments made in the wake of the Jewish nation's war against terror group Hamas.
Twenty-two Democrats voted with 212 Republicans to censure Tlaib.
Her critics have pointed out that the rallying cry implicitly calls for the destruction of Israel as a state. Hamas has also co-opted the phrase.
"It is fundamentally a call for a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, territory that includes the State of Israel, which would mean the dismantling of the Jewish state," the Anti-Defamation League's website says. "It is an antisemitic charge denying the Jewish right to self-determination, including through the removal of Jews from their ancestral homeland."
Tlaib has remained unrepentant over her use of the phrase.
I think the part of the podcast that stuck out to me most was when he discussed the protests. He mentions that other countries have slaughtered tens of thousands of Arabs and not a chirp. Israel does it, and people line the streets. Now, I understand the Palestine Israel war is its own, nuanced set of atrocities, but it struck me personally. As I mentioned privately to another poster, I have spent my adult life learning about racism towards black and brown people, the courts, the laws, history, the systemic nature of it, why it happened/s, the economics, really as much as I can consume. I do not do that when it comes to Jews and anti-semitism. Of course, I find it abhorrent that other countries are murdering Arabs or Palestinians, so I better speak up in the future. I also better learn more about the plight of the Jewish people.
Additionally, H2O, I agree with you on your sentiment of using charged language. I spend a lot of time with people discussing why language is charged and why we shouldn't use it. Why things like "insert any term that has evolved over the years to mean something negative to someone" should he carefully considered when used, if at all. I will never use the phrase "from the river to the sea" even if I want a free Palestine state. Free from terror, free from pain and suffering, free from poverty, free to live the way they choose to live, free from anyone and any organization that limits this. As my oldest son and I discussed on the weekend, that doesn't mean I don't want it for Israel, too.
That being said, to those who are outspoken in their 100% support of Israel, when does that support wane? When does Israel cross that imaginary, subjective line among countries into unnecessary violence, an overreaction as it were? Sam Harris also mentions he thinks the Israeli reaction might have been a mistake. H2O, thoughts?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 06:38:06 AM
Like we should take in our Christian brothers from Latin America with open arms ai''nna?
Have you seen what's going out in the southern border in the last three years?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 07:02:27 AM
I understand you hold the only correct opinion, and once you stated it, you do not want to be challenged. That you've been very clear for years.
——-
I did not ask if they were protected speech, I asked you if you thought they were phrases and words that call for violence against the Jewish people in Israel. You did not answer for the third time.
You don't think this is a war for the existence of Israel. You've made this very clear many times. Because you think their army is strong enough to prevent the demise of Israel. So you use carefully chosen words. "Israel isn't going away." "It's Existence is in threatened."
You then say Israel has the right to defend itself. Against what exactly? Be specific what are they defending against and how far can they go to defend themselves from whatever threat you think they have?
——-
I have said that those words and phrases that the kids in Madison were chanting and carrying on their signs were calls for genocide against Israel. We can debate whether they are protected speech, but I didn't ask you that. And I said that I'm very much on the fence is the weather not it is protected speech. But those words and phrases are definitely hate speech and universities to have restrictions against the use of hate speech.
I've been very clear Israel is defending their existence, and they have to remove the threat of a Hamas and Islamic Jihadism. And to this end, if a Hamas and Jihadis hide under schools, hospitals, and behind human shields, then they have turned those schools, hospital, said human shields into military targets.
Israel will make every effort to reduce civilian casualties, but they will not be stopped by the prospects of civilian casualties. And the fact that there are civilian casualties as the attack military targets does not make their actions war crimes. So, if they bomb a hospital or a refugee camp, if they shoot a human shield, these are unfortunate collateral damage in a war against military targets.
International law governing war, and the Geneva convention, are all structured to make sure that military targets and civilian targets are separated. That's why the first articles of the Geneva convention say soldiers must wear uniforms so they could be distinguished from the civilian population. This civilian population must be separated from the battlefield.
Hamas is responsible for wearing a uniform is responsible for moving its citizens off the battlefield. They do not wear uniforms and they do not move their civilians from the battlefield. Therefore, they are committing war crimes, not Israel. Every time Hamas or PIJ fire a rocket it is intended to kill civilians, that is a war crime. Every time Israel drop a bomb on a military target, civilians are collateral damage, that is not a war crime.
It's war and war is nothing but a mistake. But I'm not going to draw any moral equivalence between what Israel's doing and what Hamas is doing.
Israel is on the right side of this war, and the Palestinians are on the wrong side of this war. I have no moral confusion about this.
So, I was right then. Israel is beyond capable of committing war crimes, in your opinion.
Thank you for your clarification.
The Nazis would have loved you.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 07:02:27 AM
But those words and phrases are definitely hate speech and universities to have restrictions against the use of hate speech.
No they don't. That would be illegal. You are making things up again.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 06:38:06 AM
Like we should take in our Christian brothers from Latin America with open arms ai''nna?
Excellent point. And, yes, we should.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 06:37:05 AM
It's not. It will be around for a long time. Who has the will and the ability to destroy them?
What do you think Iran will do if they get nuclear weapons?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 07, 2023, 11:24:39 PM
Substantially monetarily propping up a state and government who pays little thought to pouring billions in high powered explosives into exterminating others' children is perfectly acceptable though. So just an extra couple of steps.
Glad you have that line drawn in the sand.
Just say you don't like Muslims and save us the time instead of generalizing extremists from a religion of over a billion people worldwide.
There's plenty of Christian extremism/violence even right in all of our back yards. But just because they aren't currently in a phase of self immolation, it gets the moral high ground? They are a significant propagator of antisemitism in our country. Something it rightfully seems you do care a lot about speaking up against.
Extremism is bad in all regards and should be treated as such. As is bigotry, which I certainly hope you or anyone here do not engage in.
"Just because they aren't currently in a phase of self immolation"? This would make me laugh if it wasn't so sad and so ignorant. Yes, extremism is bad. But some is (obviously) much more dangerous than others. If you have a cold or stage 4 pancreatic cancer you are "sick". Calling them the same thing is dumb.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:09:24 AM
What do you think Iran will do if they get nuclear weapons?
Nothing. Just like the rest of the world. They're defensive weapons used to guarantee national sovereignty.
No one can know for sure, but if you think that Iran would use a nuclear weapon offensively and not expect their total destruction then you're drinking the kool-aid. That is straight up propaganda.
Personally, I don't want them to get a nuke because we don't need more risk in the world as it is.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 06:42:55 AM
I don't know what you're asking. Golan is part of Syria, and the West Bank is part of Jordan. The rest of the world outside of Israel and the US recognizes this. They are occupied territories being administered by Israel under the guise of 'security'.
Are you suggesting that the surrounding Arab states don't care about Palestinian Arabs?
You mean that same international community that teaches 1st graders to kill Jews in Gaza schools and has had more resolutions against Israel than the rest of the world combined? They coukd say whatever the fk they want but the fact remains Israel (after being attacked) controls those areas. And when Jordan and Syria controlled them Palestinians were treated worse.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 07:14:05 AM
Nothing. Just like the rest of the world. They're defensive weapons used to guarantee national sovereignty.
No one can know for sure, but if you think that Iran would use a nuclear weapon offensively and not expect their total destruction then you're drinking the kool-aid. That is straight up propaganda.
Personally, I don't want them to get a nuke because we don't need more risk in the world as it is.
Well, you're very naive my friend. Militant Islamists exist I hate to break it to you. When they say they want to wipe Israel off the map I don't think it's for shts and grins.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:14:59 AM
You mean that same international community that teaches 1st graders to kill Jews in Gaza schools and has had more resolutions against Israel than the rest of the world combined? They coukd say whatever the fk they want but the fact remains Israel (after being attacked) controls those areas. And when Jordan and Syria controlled them Palestinians were treated worse.
I'm talking about the rest of the countries in the world and their governments. Which I thought was clear, since that is what I typed. You can look this up. You can do a little research before spouting off nonsense.
Also, no, the Palestinians in Jordan and Syria weren't treated worse. Palestinians in Golan and the OWB are living in an apartheid state.
You need to seriously consider where you get your information from.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:17:10 AM
Well, you're very naive my friend. Militant Islamists exist I hate to break it to you. When they say they want to wipe Israel off the map I don't think it's for shts and grins.
You can't see the forest for the trees. Do you honestly believe that Iran would offensively nuke Israel if they got one?
You know so little about this topic, it's probably better to sit this one out.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 06:42:55 AM
I don't know what you're asking. Golan is part of Syria, and the West Bank is part of Jordan. The rest of the world outside of Israel and the US recognizes this. They are occupied territories being administered by Israel under the guise of 'security'.
Are you suggesting that the surrounding Arab states don't care about Palestinian Arabs?
Jordan no longer claims the West Bank. They view it as Palestinian land.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 07, 2023, 08:55:06 PM
How's election night treat in' ya?
Another great night that confirms that purchasing the Hugo Chavez software was well worth the price.
Even the world's greatest dead-dictator-election-stealing software isn't enough to save Mississippi from being Mississippi.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:17:10 AM
Well, you're very naive my friend. Militant Islamists exist I hate to break it to you. When they say they want to wipe Israel off the map I don't think it's for shts and grins.
You have no concept of the nuances of international relations.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:17:10 AM
Well, you're very naive my friend. Militant Islamists exist I hate to break it to you. When they say they want to wipe Israel off the map I don't think it's for shts and grins.
They do exist. The leadership of Iran is not trading their own lives/power and the lives of 90 million Iranians for the chance to kill 9 million Israelis.
If Iran nuking Israel is such a given then why haven't they directly attacked Israel?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 06:38:06 AM
Like we should take in our Christian brothers from Latin America with open arms ai''nna?
Here's the hard, honest truth...none of their Arab kinfolk want them either, aina?
Yes, I think Iran would nuke Israel.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:47:04 AM
Yes, I think Iran would nuke Israel.
Israel would nuke them first
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 08, 2023, 07:49:57 AM
Israel would nuke them first
That would hopefully be the case.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:47:04 AM
Yes, I think Iran would nuke Israel.
Then why haven't they directly attacked Israel? They would surely win, whats stopping them?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:51:32 AM
That would hopefully be the case.
JFC. Muggsy, countries launching nukes at eachb other is nothing to hope for
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 07:51:32 AM
That would hopefully be the case.
Maybe not nuke, but they'd render their capabilities to nil.
My only concern would be, having someone like Netanyahu in charge who ignores his generals and intelligence people while fighting to keep himself out of jail.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 07:43:54 AM
Here's the hard, honest truth...none of their Arab kinfolk want them either, aina?
I don't know why people continue to state this as if it is fact. It is so easily disproved.
"Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem."
https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 07:56:22 AM
I don't know why people continue to state this as if it is fact. It is so easily disproved.
"Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem."
https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees
As long as they stay out of America
"The cries of the Palestinian and Israeli children sound no different to me."
"Palestinian people are not disposable."
Like Muggs said in another thread, albeit he was calling for the support of orcas, have empathy. No, not for Hamas, not for terrorists, not for the brutally violent, no not for the abhorrent. For the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for the Muslims, for the Jews, for all who are being used as pawns and who are being murdered in a war between extremists. We are being stripped of our empathy, actually, we are actively choosing to ignore it.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 07:57:49 AM
::)
If only, like we could have secured a deal with say dozen's of other countries, with multiple levels of oversight, inspectors inside every nuclear facility in Iran, and monitored all facilities for I don't know, say the next 20-30 years, to keep an eye on everything...wild I know...
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 07:56:22 AM
I don't know why people continue to state this as if it is fact. It is so easily disproved.
"Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem."
https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees
There is so much land controlled by Arab nations that surely they could annex a portion and create their own Palestinian state. But, that's not the Palestinian mission over the past 75 years and beyond..."from the River to the Sea," aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 08:59:36 AM
There is so much land controlled by Arab nations that surely they could annex a portion and create their own Palestinian state. But, that's not the Palestinian mission over the past 75 years and beyond..."from the River to the Sea," aina?
Your position here is that some 7 million Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and surrounding areas should all pack up from what's been their ancestral land for centuries and move to the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia or the Iranian steppe?
How do you imagine this being accomplished? Trail of Tears II?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 08, 2023, 09:15:51 AM
Your position here is that some 7 million Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and surrounding areas should all pack up from what's been their ancestral land for centuries and move to the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia or the Iranian steppe?
How do you imagine this being accomplished? Trail of Tears II?
I think though he just solved our own southern border issue, just carve out pieces of Texas and Arizona and call it day.
No question, that's what they should do. Sure beats genocide and annihilation of a 75 yo country and all its people, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 09:21:13 AM
No question, that's what they should do. Sure beats genocide and annihilation of a 75 yo country and all its people, aina?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Quote from: Pakuni on November 08, 2023, 09:15:51 AM
Your position here is that some 7 million Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and surrounding areas should all pack up from what's been their ancestral land for centuries and move to the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia or the Iranian steppe?
How do you imagine this being accomplished? Trail of Tears II?
Do you not have a knowledge of history? That's what Jews in Poland and Nazi Germany did just to save their lives in the 30's. Only they didn't have a homeland to run to. They left all possessions and fled with virtually nothing and yet 6 million perished in the Holocaust. Or are you of those who say the Holocaust never happened, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 09:26:29 AM
Do you not have a knowledge of history? That's what Jews in Poland and Nazi Germany did just to save their lives in the 30's. Only they didn't have a homeland to run to. They left all possessions and fled with virtually nothing and yet 6 million perished in the Holocaust. Or are you of those who say the Holocaust never happened, hey?
Funny, considering the guy you hailed as the "best of president of my lifetime" hangs out with Holocaust deniers. But as already noted, IOKIYAR.
But I'm honestly not sure what your point here is, if you have one. Because Jews were forced to flee the Nazis, Palestinians should be forced to flee the Jews? Strong take, there.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 09:26:29 AM
Do you not have a knowledge of history? That's what Jews in Poland and Nazi Germany did just to save their lives in the 30's. Only they didn't have a homeland to run to. They left all possessions and fled with virtually nothing and yet 6 million perished in the Holocaust. Or are you of those who say the Holocaust never happened, hey?
Arguably the worst thing to happen in the entirety of our known existence. And, we don't want it to repeat.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 08, 2023, 08:50:06 AM
"The cries of the Palestinian and Israeli children sound no different to me."
"Palestinian people are not disposable."
Like Muggs said in another thread, albeit he was calling for the support of orcas, have empathy. No, not for Hamas, not for terrorists, not for the brutally violent, no not for the abhorrent. For the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for the Muslims, for the Jews, for all who are being used as pawns and who are being murdered in a war between extremists. We are being stripped of our empathy, actually, we are actively choosing to ignore it.
Yes Jumpstreet and I do. Although I will admit I have more empathy towards certain species over adult humans. I also (unlike some here) understand what pure evil is and believe they should have an appointment with darkness. I also would like to see these people suffer similarly to some of Denzel's adversaries in The Equalizer and Man on Fire.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 09:58:39 AM
Yes Jumpstreet and I do. Although I will admit I have more empathy towards certain species over adult humans. I also (unlike some here) understand what pure evil is and believe they should have an appointment with darkness. I also would like to see these people suffer similarly to some of Denzel's adversaries in The Equalizer and Man on Fire.
Okay, this is a bit. Secret plans, reducing places to dust, seizing oil fields, going Denzel...applaud you for your commitment here
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 09:58:39 AM
Yes Jumpstreet and I do. Although I will admit I have more empathy towards certain species over adult humans. I also (unlike some here) understand what pure evil is and believe they should have an appointment with darkness. I also would like to see these people suffer similarly to some of Denzel's adversaries in The Equalizer and Man on Fire.
Well, Muggs, glad to hear it. Empathy is empathy and a little is better than none.
Quote from: reinko on November 08, 2023, 10:12:28 AM
Okay, this is a bit. Secret plans, reducing places to dust, seizing oil fields, going Denzel...applaud you for your commitment here
This is a dangerous world and situation Reinko. I firmly believe if I was in charge many of these threats would be eliminated. They of course would arise again but my motto is batter up.
Qatar really annoys me. I may amend my 5 point plan.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 08:59:36 AM
There is so much land controlled by Arab nations that surely they could annex a portion and create their own Palestinian state. But, that's not the Palestinian mission over the past 75 years and beyond..."from the River to the Sea," aina?
Nah, just give them North Dakota, who needs 2 Dakotas anyway?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 10:30:36 AM
Qatar really annoys me. I may amend my 5 point plan.
Qatar is home to the largest U.S. military base in the Middle East, the U.S. Central Command's forward headquarters and some 8,000 U.S. troops.
But hey, they annoy you, so let's end that strategic relationship.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 08, 2023, 10:40:37 AM
Qatar is home to the largest U.S. military base in the Middle East, the U.S. Central Command's forward headquarters and some 8,000 U.S. troops.
But hey, they annoy you, so let's end that strategic relationship.
You refuse to see the entire picture Pakuni. Annexing the country might be a good idea.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 08, 2023, 10:40:37 AM
Qatar is home to the largest U.S. military base in the Middle East, the U.S. Central Command's forward headquarters and some 8,000 U.S. troops.
But hey, they annoy you, so let's end that strategic relationship.
Dude, it's step 6 in the plan, not like it's step 2 or 3.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 10:43:13 AM
You refuse to see the entire picture Pakuni. Annexing the country might be a good idea.
Ah, so you want to be tyrannical?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 08, 2023, 10:48:51 AM
Ah, so you want to be tyrannical?
Follow their money trail. The leaders of Hamas are staying at the Four Seasons in Doha. I would send them a elaborate room service, fake a conversation with them about restoring the caliphate, and then introduce them to darkness. Within 24 hrs. Scumbags.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 10:43:13 AM
You refuse to see the entire picture Pakuni. Annexing the country might be a good idea.
Oh, you just want to forcibly annex a sovereign country and subjugate/murder its people in violation of just about every international law that exists.
Got it.
I just can't understand why people say you're living in a fantasy world.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 10:54:39 AM
Follow their money trail. The leaders of Hamas are staying at the Four Seasons in Doha. I would send them a elaborate room service, fake a conversation with them about restoring the caliphate, and then introduce them to darkness. Within 24 hrs. Scumbags.
I mean, why aren't you doing this?
If it's a money issue, we can set up a GoFundMe to foot the bill for your plane ticket? For giggles, we'll even make it round-trip.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 08, 2023, 10:57:50 AM
I mean, why aren't you doing this?
If it's a money issue, we can set up a GoFundMe to foot the bill for your plane ticket? For giggles, we'll even make it round-trip.
It's a bit, and I think he's been weirdly radicalized by stuff he is reading and watching.
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on November 08, 2023, 10:33:07 AM
Nah, just give them North Dakota, who needs 2 Dakotas anyway?
So the one with the oil?
Quote from: reinko on November 08, 2023, 10:59:24 AM
It's a bit, and I think he's been weirdly radicalized by stuff he is reading and watching.
I used to think so, but not any more.
Andy Kaufman was never this committed to a bit.
Quote from: reinko on November 08, 2023, 10:43:37 AM
Dude, it's step 6 in the plan, not like it's step 2 or 3.
Yeah, it is a whole lot easier to annex them after assassinating their leaders and nuking everyone else. Gotta follow the correct sequence of steps.
When people tell you that they are crazy, believe them.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 08, 2023, 10:59:56 AM
So the one with the oil?
That way we can just reintroduce them to freedom at some point.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 04:06:06 AM
This is an outrageous characterization of Israel.
Just say your antisemitic and save us all the time.
Muslims no
Palestinians and their Jihadist interpretations of Islam, yes. This ideology needs to be eliminated.
I think we found the extremist on this board because only a very confused person would think that whatever Christian extremism exists in the United States, and you'll have to give us examples, is morally equivalent to what happened that October 7.
You're*
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 08, 2023, 07:11:08 AM
"Just because they aren't currently in a phase of self immolation"? This would make me laugh if it wasn't so sad and so ignorant. Yes, extremism is bad. But some is (obviously) much more dangerous than others. If you have a cold or stage 4 pancreatic cancer you are "sick". Calling them the same thing is dumb.
Colds kill more people annually than stage 4 pancreatic cancer. Terrible analogy.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 08, 2023, 10:55:24 AM
Oh, you just want to forcibly annex a sovereign country and subjugate/murder its people in violation of just about every international law that exists.
Got it.
I just can't understand why people say you're living in a fantasy world.
Sad thing is, if someone else did the above to anyone he liked, he would recommend introducing them to darkness.
It's strange when people don't realize that their views/directives are the exact same thing as they say they despise and attack in others.
When we're done nuking 95% of the Middle East - leaving Israel totally unscathed, of course - can we please nuke Storrs? I'm SO sick of Dan Hurley.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 08, 2023, 07:08:25 AM
No they don't. That would be illegal. You are making things up again.
Brandeis acknowledged they cannot stop hate speech, so you're correct. Then they did what I wanted anyway: found a way of not banning hate speech but silencing the hate talk anyway.
Harvard could stop paying for the 33 student organizations that signed the letter blaming Israel on October 8, less than 24 hours after the attack and before Israel even started to respond.
----
Brandeis University bans Students for Justice in Palestinehttps://www.thecollegefix.com/brandeis-university-bans-students-for-justice-in-palestine/
Students for Justice in Palestine can no longer operate at Brandeis University due to the group's support for Hamas, which currently governs the Gaza Strip.
The president of the Waltham, Massachusetts university published an essay Monday in The Boston Globe (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/11/06/opinion/brandeis-university-antisemitism-protests-israel-hamas/) that said clubs which call for the "annihilation" of Israel would lose club privileges. The local Jewish community started the university.
"Most urgently, in this twilight zone moment when students and faculty seem to be enjoying their freedom to express grotesque language about Jews, Jewish life, and the Jewish state,
Brandeis will uphold free speech rightly understood," President Ronald Liebowitz wrote. "Universities cannot stop hate speech, but they can stop paying for it.""Brandeis will ensure that groups that receive privileges through their affiliations with the university, including using its name, will lose their affiliations and privileges when they spew hate," he wrote.A campus spokesperson provided further comment to Fox News. "National SJP has called on its chapters to engage in conduct that supports Hamas in its call for the elimination of the only Jewish state in the world and its people," Julie Jette told Fox News.
"Such expression is not protected by Brandeis' principles of free speech."------
The former campus group confirmed the news in a post on Instagram. "With heavy hearts, we would like to announce that our chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine has been unjustly de-charted," the group wrote on Instagram yesterday. "This comes as a part of Brandeis University, an institution that values social justice, trying to silence us from speaking our truth."
"We thank everyone who stood by us during this beautiful journey, and we encourage you to reach out to us if you need any kind of support," the group wrote.
It concluded its social media post by calling for the destruction of Israel, writing, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."
Quote from: MU82 on November 08, 2023, 02:30:55 PM
When we're done nuking 95% of the Middle East - leaving Israel totally unscathed, of course - can we please nuke Storrs? I'm SO sick of Dan Hurley.
You're getting the steps out of order again. Taking out Coach Hurley is part of Step 1 - Assassinate Leadership, preferably carried out by Liam Neeson.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 08, 2023, 12:56:56 PM
Colds kill more people annually than stage 4 pancreatic cancer. Terrible analogy.
Then please accept this as an olive branch - may your next disease be stage 4 pancreatic cancer, I'll risk the much more lethal common cold.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 03:57:31 PM
Brandeis acknowledged they cannot stop hate speech, so you're correct. Then they did what I wanted anyway: found a way of not banning hate speech but silencing the hate talk anyway.
Harvard could stop paying for the 33 student organizations that signed the letter blaming Israel on October 8, less than 24 hours after the attack and before Israel even started to respond.
----
Brandeis University bans Students for Justice in Palestine
https://www.thecollegefix.com/brandeis-university-bans-students-for-justice-in-palestine/
Students for Justice in Palestine can no longer operate at Brandeis University due to the group's support for Hamas, which currently governs the Gaza Strip.
The president of the Waltham, Massachusetts university published an essay Monday in The Boston Globe (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/11/06/opinion/brandeis-university-antisemitism-protests-israel-hamas/) that said clubs which call for the "annihilation" of Israel would lose club privileges. The local Jewish community started the university.
"Most urgently, in this twilight zone moment when students and faculty seem to be enjoying their freedom to express grotesque language about Jews, Jewish life, and the Jewish state, Brandeis will uphold free speech rightly understood," President Ronald Liebowitz wrote. "Universities cannot stop hate speech, but they can stop paying for it."
"Brandeis will ensure that groups that receive privileges through their affiliations with the university, including using its name, will lose their affiliations and privileges when they spew hate," he wrote.
A campus spokesperson provided further comment to Fox News. "National SJP has called on its chapters to engage in conduct that supports Hamas in its call for the elimination of the only Jewish state in the world and its people," Julie Jette told Fox News. "Such expression is not protected by Brandeis' principles of free speech."
------
The former campus group confirmed the news in a post on Instagram. "With heavy hearts, we would like to announce that our chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine has been unjustly de-charted," the group wrote on Instagram yesterday. "This comes as a part of Brandeis University, an institution that values social justice, trying to silence us from speaking our truth."
"We thank everyone who stood by us during this beautiful journey, and we encourage you to reach out to us if you need any kind of support," the group wrote. It concluded its social media post by calling for the destruction of Israel, writing, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."
Glad to see the pushback. Can't let atrocious behavior of the antisemites go unchecked, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 08, 2023, 12:56:56 PM
Colds kill more people annually than stage 4 pancreatic cancer. Terrible analogy.
1. Source?
2. What's the mortality rate?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 04:33:28 PM
Glad to see the pushback. Can't let atrocious behavior of the antisemites go unchecked, hey?
That's why I push back against Tucker Carlson and Elon Musk
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 04:33:28 PM
Glad to see the pushback. Can't let atrocious behavior of the antisemites go unchecked, hey?
I know this issue is important to you, and I respect that because it's important to me, too.
You've pushed back on Tlaib - and so have I. You've also pushed back here, going with the Joseph McCarthy routine by (falsely) labeling anyone who doesn't pass your purity test an anti-Semite.
But ...
When will you start pushing back on MTG, Tucker and the 91-felony Criminal Defendant? Or doesn't their anti-Semitism count because they're on your team?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 08, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Then please accept this as an olive branch - may your next disease be stage 4 pancreatic cancer, I'll risk the much more lethal common cold.
Two things can be very bad at once
Palenstinians =\= islamic jihadists
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 08, 2023, 06:52:29 PM
Two things can be very bad at once
Lots of attempts at clever that miss the mark. And zero insight. Take a break and give us one.
Curious for the ends justify the means group.
If England leveled Dublin to root out the IRA after one of their terrorist attacks, would it have been justified? Would it matter how many children and civilians died as a result of eliminating the IRA?
Quote from: forgetful on November 08, 2023, 07:46:44 PM
Curious for the ends justify the means group.
If England leveled Dublin to root out the IRA after one of their terrorist attacks, would it have been justified? Would it matter how many children and civilians died as a result of eliminating the IRA?
The IRA isn't in Dublin and the situation isn't remotely comparable. You've also said nothing about tbe Israeli children who were slaightered or the hostages. Hamas is responsible for this war.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 08:02:06 PM
The IRA isn't in Dublin and the situation isn't remotely comparable. You've also said nothing about tbe Israeli children who were slaightered or the hostages. Hamas is responsible for this war.
The IRA headquarters was in Dublin.
You didn't answer the question.
And I've denounced Hamas the entire thread. Now try to answer the question.
Quote from: forgetful on November 08, 2023, 08:05:05 PM
The IRA headquarters was in Dublin.
You didn't answer the question.
And I've denounced Hamas the entire thread. Now try to answer the question.
I don't think they've been headquartered there for a very long time. It's not a comparable question at all. Hamas uses Palestinians as their shields. Israel is doing everything they can to avoid civilian deaths.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 08, 2023, 08:08:43 PM
I don't think they've been headquartered there for a very long time. It's not a comparable question at all. Hamas uses Palestinians as their shields. Israel is doing everything they can to avoid civilian deaths.
This isn't a if it happened today question. It is if England did that in response to any of their old terrorist attacks at the time. It is a hypothetical.
IRA's headquarters and armaments were also intermingled with civilian populations. Were they using them as human shields?
You are ok with any outcomes for rooting out terrorists. So would England have been justified to introduce the IRA to darkness, and any civilians that died are just part of ends that justify the means.
And to be clear, again, as you like to switch narratives. Hamas is evil. Their terrorist attack is appalling, and Israel has a right to defend itself.
Quote from: forgetful on November 08, 2023, 08:18:05 PM
This isn't a if it happened today question. It is if England did that in response to any of their old terrorist attacks at the time. It is a hypothetical.
IRA's headquarters and armaments were also intermingled with civilian populations. Were they using them as human shields?
You are ok with any outcomes for rooting out terrorists. So would England have been justified to introduce the IRA to darkness, and any civilians that died are just part of ends that justify the means.
And to be clear, again, as you like to switch narratives. Hamas is evil. Their terrorist attack is appalling, and Israel has a right to defend itself.
I mean if the IRA committed a terrorist act the magnitude of Oct 7 and with other groups could threaten the existence of England?
Supporting innocent Palestinians or being upset about the death of innocent Palestinians is not supporting Jewish genocide or supporting the end of the state of Israel.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 08, 2023, 08:35:43 PM
Supporting innocent Palestinians or being upset about the death of innocent Palestinians is not supporting Jewish genocide or supporting the end of the state of Israel.
It's not Jewish genocide.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 07:07:18 PM
Germans =\= Nazis
1944 warfare =/= 2023 warfare
Israel vs Hamas =/= World War II
We can do this all night.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 08, 2023, 08:35:43 PM
Supporting innocent Palestinians or being upset about the death of innocent Palestinians is not supporting Jewish genocide or supporting the end of the state of Israel.
Dentists and hyperexcitable diminutive people don't understand nuance. At all.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 08, 2023, 12:56:56 PM
Colds kill more people annually than stage 4 pancreatic cancer. Terrible analogy.
Approximately 19,000 have died in the US from colds and cold related causes since 1979. So, about 432 people each year.
Estimates of pancreatic cancer deaths in the US in 2023 alone? More than 50,000.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 03:57:31 PM
Brandeis acknowledged they cannot stop hate speech, so you're correct. Then they did what I wanted anyway: found a way of not banning hate speech but silencing the hate talk anyway.
Harvard could stop paying for the 33 student organizations that signed the letter blaming Israel on October 8, less than 24 hours after the attack and before Israel even started to respond.
I saw what Brandeis did. I think it was a mistake. It may feel good now, but when that student org successfully sues them for hundreds of thousands of dollars it's going to feel really sh*tty knowing that a university with rich history of educating and graduating Jewish students is funding a group that espouses hate against the Jewish people. You've recently expressed admiration for FIRE, they are condemning the decision as illegal: https://www.thefire.org/news/free-speech-promises-be-damned-brandeis-bans-students-justice-palestine. Most reactions I've seen from those in the legal world have criticized the decision.
All universities COULD choose to violate the first amendment and punish students for protected free speech. But doing so is short sighted. Sure you stop the immediate hate speech but eventually a judge will reverse any decision you make and you end up funding a hate group. You temporarily win the battle before eventually losing the battle and the war.
So, are you advocating for the funding of antisemitic hate groups? I'm not.
Quote from: MU82 on November 08, 2023, 06:25:47 PM
I know this issue is important to you, and I respect that because it's important to me, too.
You've pushed back on Tlaib - and so have I. You've also pushed back here, going with the Joseph McCarthy routine by (falsely) labeling anyone who doesn't pass your purity test an anti-Semite.
But ...
When will you start pushing back on MTG, Tucker and the 91-felony Criminal Defendant? Or doesn't their anti-Semitism count because they're on your team?
Appreciate your honest question and I'll respond honestly as well. Both MTG and Carlson leave a lot to be desired with regard to Christian/Judea relations. I tend to view them as pawns in the political chess game. In other words, they are far down the ladder in importance. On the other hand, the Democratic Party which used to be the party of choice for Jews, now has become a haven of ill advised political moves and down right hatred toward the Jewish people. In fact it is embarrassing and unheard of that democrats such as Schumer, Sanders, Mayorkas, et al are Jewish themselves. Organizations such as J Street are a disgrace as well.
As for Trump, I do not believe he is antisemitic. I watch what people do, not so much of what they say. As you know, his daughter has converted to Judaism, he has Jewish grandchildren, is one of the largest gentile donors to Israel, and kept his campaign promise of moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. And, the list go on and on. As you know, all things considered, he is not my preferred candidate. I feel the country needs a younger voice. Yet, unless he's in jail, it seems likely that Trump will be the Republican nominee. At that point, he gets my support.
I would encourage you to view his speech given at the recent RJC Leadership Conference. It can be found, along with the other Republican candidate speeches, on the C-Span website, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 08, 2023, 08:43:57 PM
1944 warfare =/= 2023 warfare
Israel vs Hamas =/= World War II
We can do this all night.
I agree with this. But you're assuming this will always not be equal.
The reason this thread is now 110 pages and why this is such an important worldwide story is that there is a real fear that these relationships will become equal.
This is the fear.
September 1939 warfare = 2023 warfare
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 08, 2023, 09:19:41 PM
I saw what Brandeis did. I think it was a mistake. It may feel good now, but when that student org successfully sues them for hundreds of thousands of dollars it's going to feel really sh*tty knowing that a university with rich history of educating and graduating Jewish students is funding a group that espouses hate against the Jewish people. You've recently expressed admiration for FIRE, they are condemning the decision as illegal: https://www.thefire.org/news/free-speech-promises-be-damned-brandeis-bans-students-justice-palestine. Most reactions I've seen from those in the legal world have criticized the decision.
All universities COULD choose to violate the first amendment and punish students for protected free speech. But doing so is short sighted. Sure you stop the immediate hate speech but eventually a judge will reverse any decision you make and you end up funding a hate group. You temporarily win the battle before eventually losing the battle and the war.
So, are you advocating for the funding of antisemitic hate groups? I'm not.
I never expressed admiration for FIRE. I referenced their low Harvard rating for free speech, but do not confuse that for admiration.
As I've said, I'm on the fence about the First Amendment issues discussed with you. So, I am not going to argue hard with you.
Universities do not have to fund every student organization. They can deny Free Palestine organizations for the same reason they will deny KKK or Proud Boy organizations.
I'm conflicted because I find this speech hateful and disgusting. I know I'm supposed to support their right to say hateful things. But I see it as a call for violence and death, and that is where I
personally draw the line.
If they sue, I will watch with great interest to see how they are resolved.
Speaking of the hateful and disgusting speech above calling for violence and death ... I'm not the only one who feels this way. Those that it is directed at are rapidly moving to protect themselves.
November 8, 2023
Jews Who Never Wanted to Own Guns Are Now Buying Them in Florida
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/jews-who-never-wanted-to-own-guns-are-now-buying-them-in-florida-1.1995780#:~:text=(Bloomberg)%20%2D%2D%20Vicky%20Furer%20never,youngest%20of%20whom%20is%2011.
Florida is home to almost 740,000 Jewish people, one of the largest concentrations outside Israel. It's also one of the states where it's easiest to acquire a gun. FBI criminal background checks — a proxy for gun purchases, which aren't tracked in the US — had been falling in Florida since March, but that reversed last month.
The FBI handled almost 124,000 checks in Florida in October, up 30% from September and nearly four times the nationwide increase of 8%. Background checks in the state were up 12% from a year earlier.
Since the Oct. 7 Hamas assault, a number of Jews in Florida who spoke with Bloomberg News said they'd opted to arm themselves despite reservations about gun ownership.
While there is no reliable record of gun purchases by members of religious groups, Magen Am USA, a nonprofit that provides security services for Jews, said it has received 1,000 calls from around the US for firearms training, armed guards for schools, and advice on gun purchases since the attack, more than in all of 2022.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 08, 2023, 10:32:32 PM
I never expressed admiration for FIRE. I referenced their low Harvard rating for free speech, but do not confuse that for admiration.
As I've said, I'm on the fence about the First Amendment issues discussed with you. So, I am not going to argue hard with you.
Universities do not have to fund every student organization. They can deny Free Palestine organizations for the same reason they will deny KKK or Proud Boy organizations.
I'm conflicted because I find this speech hateful and disgusting. I know I'm supposed to support their right to say hateful things. But I see it as a call for violence and death, and that is where I personally draw the line.
If they sue, I will watch with great interest to see how they are resolved.
Admiration was probably the wrong word. Respect for their viewpoint in this arena is probably more accurate. If not, I apologize.
Universities do have to fund kkk and proud boy orgs that meet all the requirements for a student org (most require a significant number of registered students which eliminates most attempts at KKK type orgs but allows for things like turning point).
Universities don't have to fund every organization. But they do have to make all funding decisions in a viewpoint nuetral manner.
That requierment was established in a supreme court case that actually involved UW Madison. Brandeis' president made it explicitly clear that the reason they are defunding this org is because they don't agree with their speech. They will get sued, they will lose (settle), and they will end up directly funding antisemites as a result. It was a short sighted decision.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 09:21:31 PM
Appreciate your honest question and I'll respond honestly as well. Both MTG and Carlson leave a lot to be desired with regard to Christian/Judea relations. I tend to view them as pawns in the political chess game. In other words, they are far down the ladder in importance. On the other hand, the Democratic Party which used to be the party of choice for Jews, now has become a haven of ill advised political moves and down right hatred toward the Jewish people. In fact it is embarrassing and unheard of that democrats such as Schumer, Sanders, Mayorkas, et al are Jewish themselves. Organizations such as J Street are a disgrace as well.
As for Trump, I do not believe he is antisemitic. I watch what people do, not so much of what they say. As you know, his daughter has converted to Judaism, he has Jewish grandchildren, is one of the largest gentile donors to Israel, and kept his campaign promise of moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. And, the list go on and on. As you know, all things considered, he is not my preferred candidate. I feel the country needs a younger voice. Yet, unless he's in jail, it seems likely that Trump will be the Republican nominee. At that point, he gets my support.
I would encourage you to view his speech given at the recent RJC Leadership Conference. It can be found, along with the other Republican candidate speeches, on the C-Span website, hey?
Ah, pawns in a political game that leave a lot to be desired. That's a good excuse. I like it. I'll have to remember that one.
I dunno, a gentile calling certain Jewish people embarrassing Jews because of their political affiliation seems problematic to me but why do I know, I'm anti-Semitic for not wanting to send troops to a war in the Middle East
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 09, 2023, 06:41:34 AM
Ah, pawns in a political game that leave a lot to be desired. That's a good excuse. I like it. I'll have to remember that one.
I dunno, a gentile calling certain Jewish people embarrassing Jews because of their political affiliation seems problematic to me but why do I know, I'm anti-Semitic for not wanting to send troops to a war in the Middle East
No one knows what's best for the Jewish community like a gentile dentist from the Milwaukee suburbs.
Anyhow, look at all these embarrassing Jews.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-us-jews-overwhelmingly-back-biden-over-trump-in-2024-rematch/
Quote from: Pakuni on November 09, 2023, 07:02:41 AM
No one knows what's best for the Jewish community like a gentile dentist from the Milwaukee suburbs.
Anyhow, look at all these embarrassing Jews.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-us-jews-overwhelmingly-back-biden-over-trump-in-2024-rematch/
huh, almost like any given demographic isn't a monolith!
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 09, 2023, 06:41:34 AM
Ah, pawns in a political game that leave a lot to be desired. That's a good excuse. I like it. I'll have to remember that one.
I dunno, a gentile calling certain Jewish people embarrassing Jews because of their political affiliation seems problematic to me but why do I know, I'm anti-Semitic for not wanting to send troops to a war in the Middle East
C'mon... white suburbanites already know what's best for the inner-city residents of Milwaukee. Of course they also know what's best for the Jews too.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 09:21:31 PM
Appreciate your honest question and I'll respond honestly as well. Both MTG and Carlson leave a lot to be desired with regard to Christian/Judea relations. I tend to view them as pawns in the political chess game. In other words, they are far down the ladder in importance. On the other hand, the Democratic Party which used to be the party of choice for Jews, now has become a haven of ill advised political moves and down right hatred toward the Jewish people. In fact it is embarrassing and unheard of that democrats such as Schumer, Sanders, Mayorkas, et al are Jewish themselves. Organizations such as J Street are a disgrace as well.
As for Trump, I do not believe he is antisemitic. I watch what people do, not so much of what they say. As you know, his daughter has converted to Judaism, he has Jewish grandchildren, is one of the largest gentile donors to Israel, and kept his campaign promise of moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. And, the list go on and on. As you know, all things considered, he is not my preferred candidate. I feel the country needs a younger voice. Yet, unless he's in jail, it seems likely that Trump will be the Republican nominee. At that point, he gets my support.
I would encourage you to view his speech given at the recent RJC Leadership Conference. It can be found, along with the other Republican candidate speeches, on the C-Span website, hey?
Amazing. Simply amazing dissembling and dishonesty.
The guy who drew 3.5M viewers a night and one of the loudest, most prominent politicians don't really count because they are small fish, just pawns. Scoopers failing the purity test are clearly antisemites, but these two? No need to condemn them, they're nobodies!
The orange fellow dining with Nick Fuentes? And calling literal nazis "very fine people"? He gets a pass, his daughter married a Jew!
I'd call it intellectual dishonesty, but there would have to be some level of intellect first. But as I said, this sort of hypocrisy is just part of the operating system now.
Give me a shout when you have a bunch of folks on this side marching around chanting, "Jews will not replace us" and a D President that praises nazis.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 08, 2023, 09:21:31 PM
Appreciate your honest question and I'll respond honestly as well. Both MTG and Carlson leave a lot to be desired with regard to Christian/Judea relations. I tend to view them as pawns in the political chess game. In other words, they are far down the ladder in importance. On the other hand, the Democratic Party which used to be the party of choice for Jews, now has become a haven of ill advised political moves and down right hatred toward the Jewish people. In fact it is embarrassing and unheard of that democrats such as Schumer, Sanders, Mayorkas, et al are Jewish themselves. Organizations such as J Street are a disgrace as well.
As for Trump, I do not believe he is antisemitic. I watch what people do, not so much of what they say. As you know, his daughter has converted to Judaism, he has Jewish grandchildren, is one of the largest gentile donors to Israel, and kept his campaign promise of moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. And, the list go on and on. As you know, all things considered, he is not my preferred candidate. I feel the country needs a younger voice. Yet, unless he's in jail, it seems likely that Trump will be the Republican nominee. At that point, he gets my support.
I would encourage you to view his speech given at the recent RJC Leadership Conference. It can be found, along with the other Republican candidate speeches, on the C-Span website, hey?
Thanks for the answer, Doc.
You've twisted yourself into quite the pretzel to not condemn people who actually are quite high up on the food chain. For example, Tucker Carlson has far more power and influence than most politicians, and you know it. Hell, text messages were unearthed showing how much Tucker hates your favorite president ... but even though your favorite president famously holds grudges, he groveled at the feet of Tucker because he knows he needs the influential Carlson on his side.
And you're just plain wrong about the 91-felony Criminal Defendant. If you accept support from anti-Semites - which he has done over and over again - and if you solicit support from anti-Semites - which he has done over and over again - sorry, but you are an anti-Semite.
It would be very easy for your guy to call out MTG. "Hey, my daughter is Jewish and I'm a strong supporter of both Israel and Jews everywhere. Knock off the Jewish Space Laser crapola and your other anti-Semitic tropes. I'd rather have no support from you than the support of an anti-Semite." THAT would go a long way toward proving he's not anti-Semitic.
Instead, he's honored to have her support, he constantly praises her publicly, and he might even consider her as a running mate. Sorry, but if someone's a white supremacist and you accept that person as a cohort, you're probably a white supremacist, too.
If he really supported all Jews - not just the State of Israel when it's politically expedient to do so - he'd tell the neo-Nazis, Proud Boys and white supremacists who worship him: "I would rather lose every election than accept your support. You are the worst scum on the planet, and if I'm elected president again, I will do everything in my power to marginalize you and eliminate your influence. I don't want or need your support; vote for somebody else. You make me sick."
Instead, although he has had numerous opportunities to strongly condemn those people and groups, and to forcefully separate himself from them, he instead has gladly accepted their support. He has told Jew-haters to "stand by," he has said some torch-carrying neo-Nazis were "very fine people," he recently dined with two raging anti-Semites, and he even more recently praised Hezbollah's leaders. Him pretending not to even know who David Duke is? That's precious ... and you apparently fell for it.
Ivanka converted? So what? Many people who have gay kids and grandkids still dislike or even hate gay people; many white people who have black SILs or DILs are still bigoted against black people. Ivanka converting means nothing when it comes to her father's prejudices.
You say it matters what people do and not what they say. First, I'll disagree with that on its merit. When the President of the United States talks, it means something. (And you sure believe it means something when the current president talks.) That's doubly true when it involves important, controversial or divisive topics.
But OK, for the sake of this discussion, let's say I accept that a person's words on a subject don't really matter.
Why then have you labeled some of our fellow Scoopers anti-Semites merely because they don't agree with you about some issues surrounding this Israel-Hamas war? You don't really know any of them. You don't know what's in their hearts. You don't know whether they have Jewish relatives or support Jewish causes. You don't like a few sentences they've said on a social media platform, so in your eyes - boom! - they are Jew-haters? That's both pathetic and incredibly hypocritcal.
It's pretty sad that you'll call out a Scooper you don't know but you refuse to acknowledge that the former president, whom we all know very well, has said and done a LOT of things that you'd quickly label as anti-Semitic if he wasn't the captain of your team.
If Biden broke bread with Nick Fuentes, constantly praised Tlaib and called Hezbollah "very smart," you'd be shrugging your shoulders and saying words don't matter, hey?
We bombed an empty warehouse??
The following is from liberal blogger Josh Marshall, who founded Talking Points Memo.
You can agree or disagree with his politics, this isn't about him. It's just his perspective on the "generation gap" in Americans' attitudes toward the Israel-Hamas war. FWIW, he was born in 1969.
"Younger Americans are much less instinctively sympathetic to Israel and are more sympathetic to the Palestinians. This is a basic generational fact about American politics and culture. There many reasons for this. The Holocaust ended almost 80 years ago. The post-1967 occupation has dragged on for 56 years old. For a generation of Americans their impressions of the conflict are not shaped by epic conventional wars, the terrorist campaigns of the 70s and 80s or even the mass casualty terror attacks of the Second Intifada. They are rather of repeated retaliatory bombing campaigns in Gaza and of a long-serving Israeli Prime Minister publicly disrespecting a black, Democratic President on his home turf, doing so in connivance with that President's domestic opponents. Over the last decade and a half and especially during the Trump years Benjamin Netanyahu more or less openly acted as a foreign auxiliary of the US Republican party. That had vast consequences and consequences many in the US and Israel saw and warned about at the time."
Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2023, 08:45:29 AM
The following is from liberal blogger Josh Marshall, who founded Talking Points Memo.
You can agree or disagree with his politics, this isn't about him. It's just his perspective on the "generation gap" in Americans' attitudes toward the Israel-Hamas war. FWIW, he was born in 1969.
"Younger Americans are much less instinctively sympathetic to Israel and are more sympathetic to the Palestinians. This is a basic generational fact about American politics and culture. There many reasons for this. The Holocaust ended almost 80 years ago. The post-1967 occupation has dragged on for 56 years old. For a generation of Americans their impressions of the conflict are not shaped by epic conventional wars, the terrorist campaigns of the 70s and 80s or even the mass casualty terror attacks of the Second Intifada. They are rather of repeated retaliatory bombing campaigns in Gaza and of a long-serving Israeli Prime Minister publicly disrespecting a black, Democratic President on his home turf, doing so in connivance with that President's domestic opponents. Over the last decade and a half and especially during the Trump years Benjamin Netanyahu more or less openly acted as a foreign auxiliary of the US Republican party. That had vast consequences and consequences many in the US and Israel saw and warned about at the time."
Yes, they're more sympathetic towards Palestinians. This was evidenced last night in LA when they "protested" the showing of the IDF video of the Hamas massacres on Oct. 7th at the Museum of Tolerance. The film viewers were attacked on the street.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 08:59:55 AM
Yes, they're more sympathetic towards Palestinians. This was evidenced last night in LA when they "protested" the showing of the IDF video of the Hamas massacres on Oct. 7th at the Museum of Tolerance. The film viewers were attacked on the street.
This is false. There were protests and counter protests across the street from the theater and those people got into a fight.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 09, 2023, 09:05:37 AM
This is false. There were protests and counter protests across the street from the theater and those people got into a fight.
Why would they protest the film being shown?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 09:08:51 AM
Why would they protest the film being shown?
I don't know. Why don't you try to find out?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 09:08:51 AM
Why would they protest the film being shown?
The LA Times interviewed some of the protesters. According to those interviews they believed that showing the film was an attempt to encourage more retaliation against innocent Palestinians. Whether you buy that or find it reasonable is up to you. Personally, I think it was percieved as a pro-Israel/anti-Palestine event so they showed up to voice their opinion. And the counter protesters showed up to voice their opinion to the protestors opinion. Which is how this should work....up until the violence. I'm glad no one was seriously harmed and those who engaged in violence were arrested.
Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2023, 08:45:29 AM
The following is from liberal blogger Josh Marshall, who founded Talking Points Memo.
You can agree or disagree with his politics, this isn't about him. It's just his perspective on the "generation gap" in Americans' attitudes toward the Israel-Hamas war. FWIW, he was born in 1969.
"Younger Americans are much less instinctively sympathetic to Israel and are more sympathetic to the Palestinians. This is a basic generational fact about American politics and culture. There many reasons for this. The Holocaust ended almost 80 years ago. The post-1967 occupation has dragged on for 56 years old. For a generation of Americans their impressions of the conflict are not shaped by epic conventional wars, the terrorist campaigns of the 70s and 80s or even the mass casualty terror attacks of the Second Intifada. They are rather of repeated retaliatory bombing campaigns in Gaza and of a long-serving Israeli Prime Minister publicly disrespecting a black, Democratic President on his home turf, doing so in connivance with that President's domestic opponents. Over the last decade and a half and especially during the Trump years Benjamin Netanyahu more or less openly acted as a foreign auxiliary of the US Republican party. That had vast consequences and consequences many in the US and Israel saw and warned about at the time."
The conclusion is probably right here, but the attemped explanation is tortured and politically-contrived. Young peoples' inclination toward Palestinian sympathy doesn't have anything to do with percevied disrespect from Netanyahu toward Obama. It is about America having been militarily engaged in unwinnable, asymmetric warfare in the Middle East for their whole lives. That generation is trying to unpack the relationship between the collateral damage of those wars and creating more adherents of the philosophies we were there to destroy. To them, America's alliance with Israel and the Israeli response to October 7 is just another dimension of that. This is partly the fallout of nonsensical neocon international policy from the early aughts, and partly academia having lost the plot on how to contextualize the importance of supporting Western democratic and human rights values.
FWIW, according to the LA Times , it was the pro-Israel counterprotesters that crossed over to the pro-Palestine protesters side. The article didn't say which side threw the first punch.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 09, 2023, 09:12:26 AM
I don't know. Why don't you try to find out?
Because he has no media literacy?
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 09, 2023, 09:21:17 AM
The conclusion is probably right here, but the attemped explanation is tortured and politically-contrived. Young peoples' inclination toward Palestinian sympathy doesn't have anything to do with percevied disrespect from Netanyahu toward Obama. It is about America having been militarily engaged in unwinnable, asymmetric warfare in the Middle East for their whole lives. That generation is trying to unpack the relationship between the collateral damage of those wars and creating more adherents of the philosophies we were there to destroy. To them, America's alliance with Israel and the Israeli response to October 7 is just another dimension of that. This is partly the fallout of nonsensical neocon international policy from the early aughts, and partly academia having lost the plot on how to contextualize the importance of supporting Western democratic and human rights values.
+1. I had a similar response typed, but you did a much better job.
It's a "we spent our youth doing it your way, and this is more of the same... and it just perpetuates a cycle of violence"
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 09, 2023, 09:18:29 AM
The LA Times interviewed some of the protesters. According to those interviews they believed that showing the film was an attempt to encourage more retaliation against innocent Palestinians. Whether you buy that or find it reasonable is up to you. Personally, I think it was percieved as a pro-Israel/anti-Palestine event so they showed up to voice their opinion. And the counter protesters showed up to voice their opinion to the protestors opinion. Which is how this should work....up until the violence. I'm glad no one was seriously harmed and those who engaged in violence were arrested.
Most of these people don't either believe basic facts or want others to see the truth. There are still 240 hostages in Gaza tunnels. We barely even talk about them anymore. Hamas is using innocent Palestinians as shields. Why aren't they protesting what Hamas has done to Palestinians?
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 09, 2023, 09:21:17 AM
The conclusion is probably right here, but the attemped explanation is tortured and politically-contrived. Young peoples' inclination toward Palestinian sympathy doesn't have anything to do with percevied disrespect from Netanyahu toward Obama. It is about America having been militarily engaged in unwinnable, asymmetric warfare in the Middle East for their whole lives. That generation is trying to unpack the relationship between the collateral damage of those wars and creating more adherents of the philosophies we were there to destroy. To them, America's alliance with Israel and the Israeli response to October 7 is just another dimension of that. This is partly the fallout of nonsensical neocon international policy from the early aughts, and partly academia having lost the plot on how to contextualize the importance of supporting Western democratic and human rights values.
Well said.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 09:43:19 AM
Most of these people don't either believe basic facts or want others to see the truth. There are still 240 hostages in Gaza tunnels. We barely even talk about them anymore. Hamas is using innocent Palestinians as shields. Why aren't they protesting what Hamas has done to Palestinians?
We don't talk about those hostages anymore because the culture wars on campus seem to be more important.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 09:43:19 AM
Most of these people don't either believe basic facts or want others to see the truth. There are still 240 hostages in Gaza tunnels. We barely even talk about them anymore. Hamas is using innocent Palestinians as shields. Why aren't they protesting what Hamas has done to Palestinians?
I imagine the same reason that pro-Israel protestors aren't protesting Israel's use of force against Palestinian civilians. They believe that the ends justify the means. I disagree with them. I'm honestly not sure if i agree or disagree with the pro-Israel protesters that the ends justify the means. I just know that what's going on in Gaza is terrible and i hope that somehow a lasting peace can be reached
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 09, 2023, 09:21:17 AM
The conclusion is probably right here, but the attemped explanation is tortured and politically-contrived. Young peoples' inclination toward Palestinian sympathy doesn't have anything to do with percevied disrespect from Netanyahu toward Obama. It is about America having been militarily engaged in unwinnable, asymmetric warfare in the Middle East for their whole lives. That generation is trying to unpack the relationship between the collateral damage of those wars and creating more adherents of the philosophies we were there to destroy. To them, America's alliance with Israel and the Israeli response to October 7 is just another dimension of that. This is partly the fallout of nonsensical neocon international policy from the early aughts, and partly academia having lost the plot on how to contextualize the importance of supporting Western democratic and human rights values.
Thanks for your well-articulated response to that item from Marshall. Although I'm more pro-Israel than most younger people seem to be in this latest conflict, I recognize that the whole thing is a difficult topic with plenty of room for nuance.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 09:43:19 AM
Most of these people don't either believe basic facts or want others to see the truth. There are still 240 hostages in Gaza tunnels. We barely even talk about them anymore.
There is a very simple reason. Talking about them does not aide public support for the current military actions by Israel.
Discussing them would require interviews with the families who are calling for Netanyahu to do more to get the hostages released, including calls by those families for a ceasefire, and trading women/children and other prisoners currently held by Israel in exchange.
The pressure from the hostage side is for a ceasefire, by both the families and international communities. So discussion of them would lead to more pressure for Israel to stop what they are doing.
What is better, is to show violence erupting in protests, hate on campuses, and videos of the terrorist attacks. Those all drive sentiment to support ongoing military efforts, so they are the focus.
Wars are a image battle.
We learned this before the first Iraqi war, where the government hired a PR firm to figure out what would support US intervention in Iraq/Kuwait. The PR firm determined that focusing on atrocities is the number 1 way to bolster support, so they paraded a 15-year old girl, with a fake story of Iraqi soldiers killing babies, and put it on the front news everywhere to increase US support for an intervention...then added fake stories of 250,000 troops on the Saudi border to bolster congressional support.
Atrocities boost war support, hostages do not.
Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2023, 08:45:29 AM
The following is from liberal blogger Josh Marshall, who founded Talking Points Memo.
You can agree or disagree with his politics, this isn't about him. It's just his perspective on the "generation gap" in Americans' attitudes toward the Israel-Hamas war. FWIW, he was born in 1969.
"Younger Americans are much less instinctively sympathetic to Israel and are more sympathetic to the Palestinians. This is a basic generational fact about American politics and culture. There many reasons for this. The Holocaust ended almost 80 years ago. The post-1967 occupation has dragged on for 56 years old. For a generation of Americans their impressions of the conflict are not shaped by epic conventional wars, the terrorist campaigns of the 70s and 80s or even the mass casualty terror attacks of the Second Intifada. They are rather of repeated retaliatory bombing campaigns in Gaza and of a long-serving Israeli Prime Minister publicly disrespecting a black, Democratic President on his home turf, doing so in connivance with that President's domestic opponents. Over the last decade and a half and especially during the Trump years Benjamin Netanyahu more or less openly acted as a foreign auxiliary of the US Republican party. That had vast consequences and consequences many in the US and Israel saw and warned about at the time."
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 09, 2023, 10:17:56 AM
I imagine the same reason that pro-Israel protestors aren't protesting Israel's use of force against Palestinian civilians. They believe that the ends justify the means. I disagree with them. I'm honestly not sure if i agree or disagree with the pro-Israel protesters that the ends justify the means. I just know that what's going on in Gaza is terrible and i hope that somehow a lasting peace can be reached
With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis. And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants. Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th? Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets? How average Gazans reacted to this display?
I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution. They have no interest in it. If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you? Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed? Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths? Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.
Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone. Period. Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them? Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?
Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil. We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked? That's ridiculous. Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th. There is none.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 12:17:02 PM
With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis. And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants. Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th? Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets? How average Gazans reacted to this display?
I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution. They have no interest in it. If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you? Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed? Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths? Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.
Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone. Period. Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them? Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?
Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil. We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked? That's ridiculous. Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th. There is none.
You do know that Jordan and Egypt have been leaders in peace solution meetings forever right? And they have proposed multiple 2-state solutions in these peace meetings.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2023, 12:20:34 PM
You do know that Jordan and Egypt have been leaders in peace solution meetings forever right? And they have proposed multiple 2-state solutions in these peace meetings.
No, he has no idea. He continously displays his lack of historical knowledge with each post.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 12:17:02 PM
With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis. And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants. Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th? Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets? How average Gazans reacted to this display?
I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution. They have no interest in it. If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you? Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed? Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths? Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.
Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone. Period. Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them? Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?
Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil. We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked? That's ridiculous. Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th. There is none.
Bolded: Yes, quite a few. Monstrous behavior isn't limited to the people you don't like, Muggsy.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2023, 12:03:49 PM
The pressure from the hostage side is for a ceasefire, by both the families and international communities. So discussion of them would lead to more pressure for Israel to stop what they are doing.
Of course, pressure is also coming from Hamas, which started the war with a brutal assault that gave no quarter to women and children. They took innocents hostage and still hold those people. And they would wipe Israel off the face of the earth if they could.
Like some others you named, Hamas leaders also are waging a PR war, and one way they win is if they can convince enough people that Israel is the true evil transgressor.
Unfortunately, they appear to be winning that war. Even many of those who agree that Hamas started it and must be stopped often quickly follow with, "but Israel ... "
Aside from that omission, your post makes a lot of outstanding points.
While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.
#NeverAgain
As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 09, 2023, 12:48:39 PM
While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.
#NeverAgain
As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?
I do feel bad for all the poor republicans out there. Maybe one day, they can pull themselves up by the bootstraps and find wealth like democrats instead of relying on corporate tax cuts and the welfare state
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 09, 2023, 12:48:39 PM
While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.
#NeverAgain
As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?
Advocates for the working class LMAO
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 09, 2023, 12:48:39 PM
While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.
#NeverAgain
As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?
Ridiculous overgeneralizations.
Millions upon millions of Democratic voters are "Israel's friend and ally," and millions upon millions of Republican voters are not.
Who do you think the very fine people who carried torches and chanted, "Jews will not replace us!" voted for in 2016 and 2020?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 09, 2023, 01:02:47 PM
Advocates for the working class LMAO
C'mon now, you're being a bit hard on the drooling dentist. He's spent the last 30 years listening to Limbaugh, Levin, and other assorted screamers feed him lies, so of course he now believes this.
And just think of all the wonderful Republican policies that showcase their support for the working class:
* Opposing the minimum wage
* Right to work states
* Opposing collective bargaining
* Trickle down economics
* Repealing safety laws
* Repealing child labor laws
* A Supreme Court that inevitably sides with corporations over people
It's a fantastic record in support of working class people.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 09, 2023, 01:02:47 PM
Advocates for the working class LMAO
Nikki Haley declared herself a union buster and Tim Scott said striking UAW workers should have been fired.
Very pro-working class, those two.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 12:17:02 PM
With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis. And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants. Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th? Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets? How average Gazans reacted to this display?
I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution. They have no interest in it. If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you? Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed? Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths? Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.
Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone. Period. Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them? Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?
Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil. We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked? That's ridiculous. Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th. There is none.
Muggsy, none of this responded to what i posted. You asked why pro-palestine protestors aren't protesting Hamas. I answered because they think the ends justify the means. I also said that I disagree with them. I'm not sure what part of this "analysis" you disagree with. Do you not think they think that the ends justify the means?
Terrorism is bad.
Collective punishment is bad.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 09, 2023, 02:22:27 PM
Nikki Haley declared herself a union buster and Tim Scott said striking UAW workers should have been fired.
Very pro-working class, those two.
They should try that in a small town
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 09, 2023, 12:48:39 PM
As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed... Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?
Responding only to the relevant portion, I agree that Israel's broadest base of support in the US is shifting to the right. I think part of that is due to Israeli politics also shifting to the right. One reflects and reinforces the other. I think the other part of that is (again) due to confusion within each party about their international agenda after the Iraq war flipped everything upside down.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 09, 2023, 03:31:26 PM
Responding only to the relevant portion, I agree that Israel's broadest base of support in the US is shifting to the right. I think part of that is due to Israeli politics also shifting to the right. One reflects and reinforces the other. I think the other part of that is (again) due to confusion within each party about their international agenda after the Iraq war flipped everything upside down.
There's also this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/
There's also all the AIPAC money to be had
Interesting discussion between Tucker and Greenwald pointing out that the right has taken the anti-free speech position when it comes to discussion of Palestine.
Cancel culture runs amok on the right these days.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 09, 2023, 09:21:17 AM
The conclusion is probably right here, but the attemped explanation is tortured and politically-contrived. Young peoples' inclination toward Palestinian sympathy doesn't have anything to do with percevied disrespect from Netanyahu toward Obama. It is about America having been militarily engaged in unwinnable, asymmetric warfare in the Middle East for their whole lives. That generation is trying to unpack the relationship between the collateral damage of those wars and creating more adherents of the philosophies we were there to destroy. To them, America's alliance with Israel and the Israeli response to October 7 is just another dimension of that. This is partly the fallout of nonsensical neocon international policy from the early aughts, and partly academia having lost the plot on how to contextualize the importance of supporting Western democratic and human rights values.
Josh Marshall is dead wrong in his reasoning.
Yours, however, makes perfect sense.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 09, 2023, 07:02:41 AM
No one knows what's best for the Jewish community like a gentile dentist from the Milwaukee suburbs.
Anyhow, look at all these embarrassing Jews.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-us-jews-overwhelmingly-back-biden-over-trump-in-2024-rematch/
June 26, 2023 story
The Jewish world changed on October 7.
Maybe you noticed.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 09, 2023, 03:31:26 PM
Responding only to the relevant portion, I agree that Israel's broadest base of support in the US is shifting to the right. I think part of that is due to Israeli politics also shifting to the right. One reflects and reinforces the other. I think the other part of that is (again) due to confusion within each party about their international agenda after the Iraq war flipped everything upside down.
I've seen a number of interesting posts and thoughts on the element that the "left" of the younger generation have sort of embodied a collective support mindset for what they deem marginalized groups. So if I blanket support LGBT or BLM (not that either is wrong to support) then I must also blanket support any group vocal advocates of that cause also support. It's the flag in the social media profile move. You get a lot of people being very forward or loud about being pro-Ukraine, Pro-Palestine, etc... but not knowing really any nuance about it while being quick to label or shut down those in opposition as some heinous individual.
So you have a lot of people who knew nothing about the conflict 6 weeks ago now being strongly in favor of something solely because that's what those they admire represent.
Now obviously this goes both ways, but also younger generations skew more liberal and are more in tune with social media influence and direction.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 09, 2023, 12:22:28 PM
Bolded: Yes, quite a few. Monstrous behavior isn't limited to the people you don't like, Muggsy.
You answered yes to this.
Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed? Please provide a source
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 09, 2023, 02:32:16 PM
Terrorism is bad.
Collective punishment is bad.
Who is collectively punishing whom?
Do you mean those chanting "from the river ..." because that is a call for collective punishment?
The Arab and Islamic world gives a total of 0.00000% about the Palestinians other than using them as pawns. If you refuse to see this you are either ignorant or dishonest. I also don't believe the echo chamber here cares about them either. Remind me of your cries about Syrians being gassed, the Kurds, the Uyghurs, the Muslims in Mynmar, etc, etc, etc, etc. Israel is not the problem. All of you need to wake up and deal with reality. They were barbarically attacked mind you. None of you have made any realistic suggestions as to what they should do other than what they're doing right now.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 08, 2023, 11:29:32 PM
Admiration was probably the wrong word. Respect for their viewpoint in this arena is probably more accurate. If not, I apologize.
Universities do have to fund kkk and proud boy orgs that meet all the requirements for a student org (most require a significant number of registered students which eliminates most attempts at KKK type orgs but allows for things like turning point).
Universities don't have to fund every organization. But they do have to make all funding decisions in a viewpoint nuetral manner.
That requierment was established in a supreme court case that actually involved UW Madison. Brandeis' president made it explicitly clear that the reason they are defunding this org is because they don't agree with their speech. They will get sued, they will lose (settle), and they will end up directly funding antisemites as a result. It was a short sighted decision.
Nov. 9, 2023 Updated 6:00 p.m. ET
After Antisemitic Attacks, Colleges Debate What Kind of Speech Is Out of Boundshttps://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/antisemitic-speech-palestine-israel-protests.html
Pro-Palestinian students say that they are speaking up for an oppressed people, but critics say that their rhetoric is deeply offensive.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cxv78UcpUEl/?igshid=Mno4MzhpcjRqd3Rj
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 09, 2023, 07:27:27 PM
The Arab and Islamic world gives a total of 0.00000% about the Palestinians other than using them as pawns. If you refuse to see this you are either ignorant or dishonest. I also don't believe the echo chamber here cares about them either. Remind me of your cries about Syrians being gassed, the Kurds, the Uyghurs, the Muslims in Mynmar, etc, etc, etc, etc. Israel is not the problem. All of you need to wake up and deal with reality. They were barbarically attacked mind you. None of you have made any realistic suggestions as to what they should do other than what they're doing right now.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/d3b3e69c9c85c6560993517c107e3c06/tenor.gif?itemid=12598382)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 09, 2023, 06:38:42 PM
Who is collectively punishing whom?
Do you mean those chanting "from the river ..." because that is a call for collective punishment?
Israel to Palestinians. Siege includes blockage of food, water, medicine
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 09, 2023, 07:28:23 PM
Nov. 9, 2023 Updated 6:00 p.m. ET
After Antisemitic Attacks, Colleges Debate What Kind of Speech Is Out of Bounds
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/antisemitic-speech-palestine-israel-protests.html
Pro-Palestinian students say that they are speaking up for an oppressed people, but critics say that their rhetoric is deeply offensive.
More cancel culture and anti-free speech
Tucker and Glenn were correct, sadly
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 09, 2023, 08:13:02 PM
Israel to Palestinians. Siege includes blockage of food, water, medicine
I'm not like H20 suggesting that all Palestinians are culpable or whatnot. But I really don't think the blockade/siege is as black and white as people make it out to be. You have the history of Hamas intercepting/repurposing humanitarian aid for whatever they please, be it money or supplies. Then you have the evidence and video of them killing Gazan civilians that defy their orders to stay and it further disproves the idea of them ever doing what is right for the actual non Hamas affiliated Gazan population, including what happens to supplies if they are not blockaded.
If you are of the firm stance that Palestinians should not have anything withheld, even if it means aiding and strengthening Hamas, I can understand and accept that. But if you aren't that direct or blunt about it, it's not outrageous to think Israel has intentions for a blockade other than wanton and sadistic cruelty.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 09, 2023, 08:21:00 PM
I'm not like H20 suggesting that all Palestinians are culpable or whatnot. But I really don't think the blockade/siege is as black and white as people make it out to be. You have the history of Hamas intercepting/repurposing humanitarian aid for whatever they please, be it money or supplies. Then you have the evidence and video of them killing Gazan civilians that defy their orders to stay and it further disproves the idea of them ever doing what is right for the actual non Hamas affiliated Gazan population, including what happens to supplies if they are not blockaded.
If you are of the firm stance that Palestinians should not have anything withheld, even if it means aiding and strengthening Hamas, I can understand and accept that. But if you aren't that direct or blunt about it, it's not outrageous to think Israel has intentions for a blockade other than wanton and sadistic cruelty.
You didn't say anything incorrect.
But. Israel is still doling out collective punishment
Quote from: MU82 on November 09, 2023, 12:24:23 PM
Of course, pressure is also coming from Hamas, which started the war with a brutal assault that gave no quarter to women and children. They took innocents hostage and still hold those people. And they would wipe Israel off the face of the earth if they could.
Like some others you named, Hamas leaders also are waging a PR war, and one way they win is if they can convince enough people that Israel is the true evil transgressor.
Unfortunately, they appear to be winning that war. Even many of those who agree that Hamas started it and must be stopped often quickly follow with, "but Israel ... "
Aside from that omission, your post makes a lot of outstanding points.
We are in agreement in regards to all of the above.
My "the pressure on the hostage side..." was strictly in regards to the sentiments of many of the families of the hostages, and the countries trying to negotiate their release. That, their concerns, in many regards run contrary to Israel's primary mission at hand, i.e. to neutralize/eliminate Hamas.
I fear my wording might have conveyed the wrong message.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 09, 2023, 08:21:00 PM
I'm not like H20 suggesting that all Palestinians are culpable or whatnot. But I really don't think the blockade/siege is as black and white as people make it out to be. You have the history of Hamas intercepting/repurposing humanitarian aid for whatever they please, be it money or supplies. Then you have the evidence and video of them killing Gazan civilians that defy their orders to stay and it further disproves the idea of them ever doing what is right for the actual non Hamas affiliated Gazan population, including what happens to supplies if they are not blockaded.
If you are of the firm stance that Palestinians should not have anything withheld, even if it means aiding and strengthening Hamas, I can understand and accept that. But if you aren't that direct or blunt about it, it's not outrageous to think Israel has intentions for a blockade other than wanton and sadistic cruelty.
Israeli military officials were acknowledging on TV that they were aware that Hamas had already stockpiled fuel, food, water, medicine, etc. that they would need for any military defense/operations.
So they knew/were aware that Hamas had no need for the humanitarian aid (food, water, medicine). They withheld it anyways. Why?
Separate. Israel is falsely accusing freelance journalists of being complicit in the attack and is reportedly adding them to an assassination list (note: Assassinations are illegal under international law).
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67375667 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67375667)
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 09, 2023, 09:31:09 PM
You didn't say anything incorrect.
But. Israel is still doling out collective punishment
The purpose is not to "dole out collective punishment." The objective is to wipe out Hamas. The unfortunate collateral damage is the suffering of the population that allowed Hamas to be its Governmental leader.
What Israel is doing is an acceptable way to process a war. (note: war is ugly and hard to look at)
In WW2, the Nazi party never more than 35% of the German population. But the Allies killed two million German civilians. The German people never cried victim; they understood they were responsible for allowing the Nazi party to be their government and accepted the punishment that was "doled out in a collective way" to eliminate the Nazis.
Try as you might, there is no moral equivalence.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2023, 10:26:05 PM
Israeli military officials were acknowledging on TV that they were aware that Hamas had already stockpiled fuel, food, water, medicine, etc. that they would need for any military defense/operations.
So they knew/were aware that Hamas had no need for the humanitarian aid (food, water, medicine). They withheld it anyways. Why?
Separate. Israel is falsely accusing freelance journalists of being complicit in the attack and is reportedly adding them to an assassination list (note: Assassinations are illegal under international law).
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67375667 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67375667)
You picked the most anti-Isreal news outlet in the Western World ... the BBC
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/nov/9/israel-calls-ap-cnn-reuters-new-york-times-investi/
The AP, Reuters and New York Times have denied having advance knowledge of the Oct. 7 attack, while CNN has cut ties with Hassan Eslaiah, one of the freelance photographers who was working that day for AP.
"While we have not at this time found reason to doubt the journalistic accuracy of the work he has done for us, we have decided to suspend all ties with him," CNN told ynetnews, an Israeli outlet.
------
I love CNN's tortured explanation. He did nothing wrong, but we immediately fired him.
Has anyone on UCLA's campus beat a Pinata of Hamas?
----
https://www.themidwesterner.news/2023/11/beat-that-fkin-jew-ucla-students-batter-netanyahu-pinata/
'Beat that f**kin' Jew!' UCLA students batter Netanyahu piñata
"Beat that f**kin' Jew!" a woman yelled into a bullhorn as the crowd chanted, "Free, free Palestine."
At one point, a man grabbed the pinata and began punching it, ripping it off the rope and destroying it.
It's still collective punishment
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 09, 2023, 06:36:31 PM
You answered yes to this.
Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed?
Please provide a source
I guess you don't use social media. Or know how to use google.
https://www.newsweek.com/israeli-influencers-are-mocking-palestinians-suffering-gaza-1838655
This is just a taste of it, unfortunately. I don't have time to dig through numerous videos online, I'll leave that to you.
Could someone explain the difference between an influencer and a d-bag?
I am unclear on this.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 09, 2023, 11:31:45 PM
You picked the most anti-Isreal news outlet in the Western World ... the BBC
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/nov/9/israel-calls-ap-cnn-reuters-new-york-times-investi/
The BBC is biased, but we should read the Washington Times? Lol.
And now the "media watchdog" that has accused journalists of wrongdoing has admitted they have no evidence of wrongdoing.
Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting and a former reporter for The Jerusalem Post, admitted Thursday the group had no evidence to back up that suggestion. He said he was satisfied with subsequent explanations from several of these journalists that they did not know.
"They were legitimate questions to be asked," Hoffman said. Despite the name "HonestReporting," he said, "we don't claim to be a news organization."https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04
How do you feel about Israeli politicians calling for the murder of journalists?
Quote from: Jockey on November 10, 2023, 07:02:44 AM
Could someone explain the difference between an influencer and a d-bag?
I am unclear on this.
POV
First, he denies something happens and then asks for a source. Upon provided the source, attack the source. If all else fails, ignore and move on to the next topic or outrage du jour.
It's why he is not a serious person.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 10, 2023, 07:20:26 AM
The BBC is biased, but we should read the Washington Times? Lol.
And now the "media watchdog" that has accused journalists of wrongdoing has admitted they have no evidence of wrongdoing.
Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting and a former reporter for The Jerusalem Post, admitted Thursday the group had no evidence to back up that suggestion. He said he was satisfied with subsequent explanations from several of these journalists that they did not know.
"They were legitimate questions to be asked," Hoffman said. Despite the name "HonestReporting," he said, "we don't claim to be a news organization."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04
How do you feel about Israeli politicians calling for the murder of journalists?
I don't believe any of the news organizations that used the work of these freelancers had advanced knowledge or were complicit in anything that happened on 10/7, that's lunacy.
That being said, I don't necessarily subscribe to the automatic "they are journalists, they did nothing wrong" thinking in this case. They weren't on an assignment, they weren't credentialed war reporters with military forces in a global conflict. They were sitting shotgun with a terrorist organization as that org rampaged through Israel murdering civilians.
It's not like this was Reuters/BBC/Al Jazeera's Gaza station chief or local correspondent we're talking about. Given Hamas and the actions of that day, I find it curious that they would have no issue with non-allied photographers to just be snapping pictures of their activities. And
I don't approve of assassination lists and deeming them a member of Hamas is reckless. But like everything in this situation, it's not black and white
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 09, 2023, 11:25:54 PM
The purpose is not to "dole out collective punishment." The objective is to wipe out Hamas. The unfortunate collateral damage is the suffering of the population that allowed Hamas to be its Governmental leader.
You keep saying this as if somehow Gazans deserve their fate, but yet again you are playing pretty loose with any context.
In 2006, Palestine held elections where the party that represented Hamas received a plurality, but not a majority of the votes. The election focused almost entirely on the corruption of Fatah and the PLO. Here is a quote from the head of the Palestinian National Initiative at the time, who was seeking to oust Fatah.
"Today was a great day for Palestine," said Mustafa Barghouti of the Palestinian National Initiative, a democratic opposition movement. "Mostly, they were voting for opposition and voting against Fatah -- against corruption, against nepotism, against the failure of the peace process, and against the lack of leadership."
Note the last sentence. Exit polls shows that a vast majority of Palestinians at the time wanted a peace agreement with Israel. Here is a quote from the Palestinian President at the time.
"We are embarking on a new era, and we call on the international community to help us return to the negotiating table with the Israelis, to conclude a peace agreement and implement it," Abbas said at the end of the election.
After the elections, a "unity government" was formed with the leader of Hamas as prime minister. However in 2007, the militant wing of Hamas took over Gaza and the unity government was dissolved. Gaza has been ruled by those militants since.
So to be clear, the Palestinians did NOT vote for the militant leaders of Hamas who currently in control. Furthermore they WANTED peace with Israel. The reason they don't have it is largely due to Hamas no doubt, but please stop with the repugnant "well, they deserve what they get" narrative.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 10, 2023, 07:56:54 AM
I don't believe any of the news organizations that used the work of these freelancers had advanced knowledge or were complicit in anything that happened on 10/7, that's lunacy.
That being said, I don't necessarily subscribe to the automatic "they are journalists, they did nothing wrong" thinking in this case. They weren't on an assignment, they weren't credentialed war reporters with military forces in a global conflict. They were sitting shotgun with a terrorist organization as that org rampaged through Israel murdering civilians.
It's not like this was Reuters/BBC/Al Jazeera's Gaza station chief or local correspondent we're talking about. Given Hamas and the actions of that day, I find it curious that they would have no issue with non-allied photographers to just be snapping pictures of their activities. And
I don't approve of assassination lists and deeming them a member of Hamas is reckless. But like everything in this situation, it's not black and white
Hmmm.
This thing reminds me of those who kept repeating that there were "irregularities" in the 2020 election despite having zero evidence of the alleged irregularities ... and then used their own accusations to justify election audits: "People are talking about irregularities in the election."
I'm not saying you did that, Wags. Nor am I saying one should subscribe to "the automatic they are journalists" defense, either. But maybe have a shred of evidence of malfeasance before calling to execute them?
Quote from: JWags85 on November 10, 2023, 07:56:54 AM
I don't believe any of the news organizations that used the work of these freelancers had advanced knowledge or were complicit in anything that happened on 10/7, that's lunacy.
That being said, I don't necessarily subscribe to the automatic "they are journalists, they did nothing wrong" thinking in this case. They weren't on an assignment, they weren't credentialed war reporters with military forces in a global conflict. They were sitting shotgun with a terrorist organization as that org rampaged through Israel murdering civilians.
It's not like this was Reuters/BBC/Al Jazeera's Gaza station chief or local correspondent we're talking about. Given Hamas and the actions of that day, I find it curious that they would have no issue with non-allied photographers to just be snapping pictures of their activities. And
I don't approve of assassination lists and deeming them a member of Hamas is reckless. But like everything in this situation, it's not black and white
If they weren't participating in the conflict they are journalists. The fact that they were riding alongside Hamas terrorists doesn't change that fact.
But I will agree there is definitely some grey to this situation.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 10, 2023, 07:20:26 AM
The BBC is biased, but we should read the Washington Times? Lol.
The Washington Times (Moonies)
The Epoch Times (Falon Gong/China)
Zero Hedge (Bulgaria/Russia)
Jack Posobiec (Wanker/Pizza Gate)
Dochey and his sources are quite the case study.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 10, 2023, 07:56:54 AM
That being said, I don't necessarily subscribe to the automatic "they are journalists, they did nothing wrong" thinking in this case.
This is true, but has anyone actually said this, at least in the present case?
QuoteThey weren't on an assignment, they weren't credentialed war reporters with military forces in a global conflict. They were sitting shotgun with a terrorist organization as that org rampaged through Israel murdering civilians.
The first statement is a simple and understandable misunderstanding of how many freelance photographers work. The second is, from all the evidence known so far, a false statement.
I'll take the second part first.
If you read the AP story I linked, the pro-Israeli media watchdog that was "just asking questions"
has now admitted that there's no evidence these journalists were riding shotgun with Hamas on Oct. 7. Not only that, that watchdog says it now accepts those journalists' explanations for their coverage that day and is satisfied that they did not know the attack was coming.
What exactly do you know that they don't? If you have something that shows they were riding shotgun with Hamas, please share.
As for freelance photographers, much of their work is done without assignment. In Chicago, for example, there are photographers and videographers who sit in their car with a police scanner all night listening for shootings, crashes, fires, etc. When something pops, they rush to the scene, shoot photo and video, and then sell it to the TV stations, websites and, occasionally, newspapers. They're not on assignment for any news organization or embedded with Chicago PD or Chicago FD. It's just how they work.
I imagine these freelancers in Gaza aren't all that different. They learn of something happening, rush to the scene and then sell their work to news organizations after the fact. They don't learn of a major attack and then wait for CNN or Reuters to tell them what to do. They go take pictures.
Why do you find it curious that Hamas would allow photographers to document the attack? They weren't exactly trying to keep it a secret. They very much wanted, and got, a public spectacle.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 10, 2023, 08:10:42 AM
So to be clear, the Palestinians did NOT vote for the militant leaders of Hamas who currently in control. Furthermore they WANTED peace with Israel. The reason they don't have it is largely due to Hamas no doubt, but please stop with the repugnant "well, they deserve what they get" narrative.
Yeah that narrative is just people telling on themselves. It is possible to 100% stand behind Israel's response to date, and never even need to delve into the culpability of the average Gaza Palestinian. "I am appalled at the loss of innocent life. However (i) Hamas is the underlying cause of all of the death we are seeing now, and (ii) is so insidious and interwoven into the geography and fabric of Gaza, that they must be rooted out at all costs, even at the significant loss of innocent Gazan life. To not do that right now is just prolonging the problem and in the long run will result in much more innocent death than we are seeing now." That's the argument, and its a fine one.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 10, 2023, 08:28:11 AM
The Washington Times (Moonies)
The Epoch Times (Falon Gong/China)
Zero Hedge (Bulgaria/Russia)
Jack Posobiec (Wanker/Pizza Gate)
Dochey and his sources are quite the case study.
How about the Washington Post? They are owned by another whack-job (Bezos)
What happened to free-speech?
----
Sally Buzbee, the executive editor of the Washington Post, sent an email to staff members on Wednesday night acknowledging their "many deep concerns and conversations" about a cartoon criticizing Hamas that the newspaper earlier in the day published and then deleted.
In the email, obtained by the Washington Free Beacon, Buzbee wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Given the many deep concerns and conversations today in our newsroom, I wanted to ensure everyone saw the notes sent out tonight by The Post's opinions editor, David Shipley, to Post readers and to his staff in opinions.
My best, SallyBuzbee forwarded an email that Shipley had sent opinions staff in which he said he had personally "taken down" the cartoon. Shipley included the full text of an editor's note in which he publicly expressed "regret" that he had "missed something profound, and divisive" in publishing the image.
"A cartoon published by Michael Ramirez on the war in Gaza, a cartoon whose publication I approved, was seen by many readers as racist. This was not my intent. I saw the drawing as a caricature of a specific individual, the Hamas spokesperson, who celebrated the attacks on unarmed civilians in Israel," Shipley wrote.
The cartoon depicted an individual, labeled "Hamas," with children, a baby, and a woman strapped to his body. "How dare Israel attack civilians...," the man said in a speech bubble.
(https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/7F52C50A-867A-4CFB-B136-7DB85F0751DF.jpeg)
Along with Shipley's editor's note, the Post published letters to the editor that variously called the cartoon "deeply malicious," "deeply racist," and "full of bias and prejudice."
The Post also reported on Wednesday evening about its removal of the cartoon by Ramirez, who twice won the Pulitzer Prize at the Las Vegas Review-Journal before joining the Post in May. The report said "the drawing was criticized as racist and dehumanizing toward Palestinians" and described the Hamas caricature as having a "large nose and snarling mouth."
Hamas has a history of using civilians as "human shields." The Biden administration has repeatedly said the Palestinian terrorist group is doing so in its ongoing war with Israel. The Post's own reporting has noted accusations that Hamas seeks to avoid Israeli strikes by operating from densely populated areas in the Gaza Strip, including under hospitals and preventing civilians from evacuating.
As is standard for political cartoonists, Ramirez has often exaggerated the facial features of his subjects of all races, including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R., Ky.) and Sen. John Fetterman (D., Pa.).
(https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Screenshot-2023-11-09-at-1.12.42-PM-700x450.png)
(https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Screenshot-2023-11-09-at-1.12.26-PM-736x480.png)
During the 2014 Gaza war, the Post published a cartoon showing Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu punching a Palestinian infant.
(https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/cartoon-bibi-736x481.jpeg)
Neither Ramirez nor Buzbee responded to requests for comment.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 09:47:25 AM
How about the Washington Post? They are owned by another whack-job (Bezos)
What happened to free-speech?
This isn't a free speech issue. It's a freedom of the press issue. And the Post is the one who retains that right...not those who work for it.
Wondering why you didn't indicate that you lifted this from the Washington Free Beacon. LOL.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 10, 2023, 07:38:29 AM
First, he denies something happens and then asks for a source. Upon provided the source, attack the source. If all else fails, ignore and move on to the next topic or outrage du jour.
It's why he is not a serious person.
Sorry I did not get back to you fast enough for your liking.
This summarizes my answer well.
Quote from: Jockey on November 10, 2023, 07:02:44 AM
Could someone explain the difference between an influencer and a d-bag?
I am unclear on this.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 10, 2023, 08:10:42 AM
You keep saying this as if somehow Gazans deserve their fate, but yet again you are playing pretty loose with any context.
In 2006, Palestine held elections where the party that represented Hamas received a plurality, but not a majority of the votes. The election focused almost entirely on the corruption of Fatah and the PLO. Here is a quote from the head of the Palestinian National Initiative at the time, who was seeking to oust Fatah.
"Today was a great day for Palestine," said Mustafa Barghouti of the Palestinian National Initiative, a democratic opposition movement. "Mostly, they were voting for opposition and voting against Fatah -- against corruption, against nepotism, against the failure of the peace process, and against the lack of leadership."
Note the last sentence. Exit polls shows that a vast majority of Palestinians at the time wanted a peace agreement with Israel. Here is a quote from the Palestinian President at the time.
"We are embarking on a new era, and we call on the international community to help us return to the negotiating table with the Israelis, to conclude a peace agreement and implement it," Abbas said at the end of the election.
After the elections, a "unity government" was formed with the leader of Hamas as prime minister. However in 2007, the militant wing of Hamas took over Gaza and the unity government was dissolved. Gaza has been ruled by those militants since.
So to be clear, the Palestinians did NOT vote for the militant leaders of Hamas who currently in control. Furthermore they WANTED peace with Israel. The reason they don't have it is largely due to Hamas no doubt, but please stop with the repugnant "well, they deserve what they get" narrative.
I don't disagree that a majority of Palestinians may not like Hamas.
Just like a majority of Americans disapprove of Biden.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/joe-biden/
So, can we ignore any law he passes because his approval rating is less than 50%?
As a citizen, you bear the responsibility and the consequence of your government's actions, whether a law they pass or a war they start.
-----
https://hub.jhu.edu/magazine/2015/summer/germany-japan-reconciliation/
At an event in Tokyo organized by the left-leaning newspaper Asahi Shimbun, Merkel referred to a 1985 speech by then West German president Richard von Weizsäcker, who called Germany's wartime defeat a "day of liberation." She added, "We Germans will never forget the hand of reconciliation that was extended to us after all the suffering that our country had brought to Europe and the world."
----
The Allies slaughtered over two million German civilians because of the action of the Nazis, which were never more than 35% of the population. Today, the German population does view themselves as a victim of a terrible genocide committed by the Allies, but thank the Allied forces for
the hand of reconciliation that was extended to us after all the suffering that our country had brought to Europe and the world.Sure, many, or maybe most, Pleastians don't want this. They can move south and get out of the way. They can rise against Hamas and remove them from the world.
Otherwise, like the German population, when this is over, they can thank the IDF for
the hand of reconciliation that was extended to us after all the suffering that our country had brought to [Isreal] and the world.----
These are the rules of war. Sorry, you don't like them and are desperate to change them to your Western progressive worldview for this specific circumstance (but not for the 500,000 killed in Ukraine in the last year; please point me to your 100 posts concerned about that).
I also understand the absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 09:53:26 AM
Sorry I did not get back to you fast enough for your liking.
This summarizes my answer well.
Okay, so you admit you didn't know that some Israelis celebrate the dead civilians in Gaza.
Now you know.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:08:59 AM
I don't disagree that a majority of Palestinians may not like Hamas.
Just like a majority of Americans disapprove of Biden.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/joe-biden/
So, can we ignore any law he passes because his approval rating is less than 50%?
As a citizen, you bear the responsibility and the consequence of your government's actions, whether a law they pass or a war they start.
Equating a population that has been subjugated to almost 20 years of rule by an unelected government to the US is absolutely ridiculous.
Not a serious person. Or not smart. I'm no longer sure which.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 10, 2023, 09:51:29 AM
This isn't a free speech issue. It's a freedom of the press issue. And the Post is the one who retains that right...not those who work for it.
Wondering why you didn't indicate that you lifted this from the Washington Free Beacon. LOL.
The right seems simply incapable of understanding the meaning of "free speech". But Douchey has consistently shown he doesn't understand the meaning of many words.
The Washington Free Beacon is just the delicious icing on the cake.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:08:59 AM
As a citizen, you bear the responsibility and the consequence of your government's actions, whether alaw they pass or a war they start.
This ls the justification terrorist organizations use for attacking civilian targets and murdering noncombatants. It's how Al-Qaeda rationalized 9/11 and Hamas justifies killing innocents in a kibbutz or music festival.
Well done.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 10, 2023, 10:09:55 AM
Okay, so you admit you didn't know that some Israelis celebrate the dead civilians in Gaza.
Now you know.
I agree that some d-bags on social media said and did some terrible things.
Are you suggesting this means they deserved October 7?
I also understand your absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 10, 2023, 09:51:29 AM
This isn't a free speech issue. It's a freedom of the press issue. And the Post is the one who retains that right...not those who work for it.
Wondering why you didn't indicate that you lifted this from the Washington Free Beacon. LOL.
I did; their name is in there. Even you figured it out, which means anyone can figure it out.
Is this how you operate? You have a narrow set of news sources you read and ignore the rest; only sources that validate the Western Progressive worldview are accepted to validate what you want the world to be.
Could you tell me what was wrong in the post? Or are you incapable of reading it because of the words "Free Beacon?"
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 10, 2023, 10:11:49 AM
Equating a population that has been subjugated to almost 20 years of rule by an unelected government to the US is absolutely ridiculous.
Not a serious person. Or not smart. I'm no longer sure which.
Explain the difference.
I'll repeat what I said above. Adding your distinction makes no difference
----
As a citizen, you bear the responsibility and the consequence of your government's actions, whether a law they pass or a war they start.
And again ....
I also understand your absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:08:59 AM
I don't disagree that a majority of Palestinians may not like Hamas.
Just like a majority of Americans disapprove of Biden.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/joe-biden/
So, can we ignore any law he passes because his approval rating is less than 50%?
LOL...what???? What kind of nonsense leap of logic is that?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:08:59 AM
These are the rules of war. Sorry, you don't like them and are desperate to change them to your Western progressive worldview for this specific circumstance (but not for the 500,000 killed in Ukraine in the last year; please point me to your 100 posts concerned about that).
Actually that's not the case at all. Under the current rules of armed conflict, Israel has a responsibility to try to target their response to Hamas militants. This is according to the Geneva Convention, which has been signed by countries such as Israel, Iran, Palestine, etc. So hardly an example of the "Western progressive worldview."
And yes, that means that certain Allied actions during WWII, such as the bombing of Dresden, may not have met the current standard.
And I have hardly talked about this at all because I understand that this is a very complicated situation and I frankly don't believe what either party is saying. The truth will come out eventually and I can reserve judgement until then.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:21:45 AM
As a citizen, you bear the responsibility and the consequence of your government's actions, whether a law they pass or a war they start.
Nope. As a citizen you bear responsibility to follow the law because that is part of the responsibility of being a citizen.
A non-combatant citizen doesn't bear responsibility for wars their governments start. If fact its clear under international law that they don't.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:21:45 AM
Explain the difference.
I'll repeat what I said above. Adding your distinction makes no difference
----
As a citizen, you bear the responsibility and the consequence of your government's actions, whether a law they pass or a war they start.
And again ....
I also understand your absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
Congrats. You have officially endorsed the ideology of every terrorist organization ever. Well done dumb dumb.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 10, 2023, 10:12:08 AM
The right seems simply incapable of understanding the meaning of "free speech". But Douchey has consistently shown he doesn't understand the meaning of many words.
The Washington Free Beacon is just the delicious icing on the cake.
Of course, a right-leaning source is going to point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency at that Washington Post; do you expect this from another progressive anti-Isreal source like the New York Times or the BBC?
Are you not the least concerned about their bias and question them as an independent and neutral news source?
Speaking of the New York Times ... do you also find this delicious icing on the cake for your worldview?
Israeli envoy blasts NYT for rehiring reporter who praised Hitler
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-envoy-blasts-nyt-for-rehiring-reporter-who-praised-hitler/..
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F85MJu7WwAAdeVP?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 10, 2023, 10:28:16 AM
Nope. As a citizen you bear responsibility to follow the law because that is part of the responsibility of being a citizen.
A non-combatant citizen doesn't bear responsibility for wars their governments start. If fact its clear under international law that they don't.
They do when their government turns their country, hospital, or school into a military target.
I understand your absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:36:35 AM
They do when their government turns their country, hospital, or school into a military target.
Nope. Wrong again.
https://youtu.be/AKN1Q5SjbeI?si=Ck17qIhC3VfT8F6S
Quote from: Pakuni on November 10, 2023, 08:35:24 AM
This is true, but has anyone actually said this, at least in the present case?
In an official statement? No. But I've seen plenty of social media reaction (and not just from LebronLover23 or other Twitter eggs) that snap blanket it as "Israel clearly wants to silence all journalists who oppose their propaganda" or "We know Israel happily kills the press, disgusting"
Quote from: Pakuni on November 10, 2023, 08:35:24 AM
The first statement is a simple and understandable misunderstanding of how many freelance photographers work. The second is, from all the evidence known so far, a false statement.
I'll take the second part first.
If you read the AP story I linked, the pro-Israeli media watchdog that was "just asking questions"
has now admitted that there's no evidence these journalists were riding shotgun with Hamas on Oct. 7. Not only that, that watchdog says it now accepts those journalists' explanations for their coverage that day and is satisfied that they did not know the attack was coming.
What exactly do you know that they don't? If you have something that shows they were riding shotgun with Hamas, please share.
As for freelance photographers, much of their work is done without assignment. In Chicago, for example, there are photographers and videographers who sit in their car with a police scanner all night listening for shootings, crashes, fires, etc. When something pops, they rush to the scene, shoot photo and video, and then sell it to the TV stations, websites and, occasionally, newspapers. They're not on assignment for any news organization or embedded with Chicago PD or Chicago FD. It's just how they work.
I imagine these freelancers in Gaza aren't all that different. They learn of something happening, rush to the scene and then sell their work to news organizations after the fact. They don't learn of a major attack and then wait for CNN or Reuters to tell them what to do. They go take pictures.
Why do you find it curious that Hamas would allow photographers to document the attack? They weren't exactly trying to keep it a secret. They very much wanted, and got, a public spectacle.
It's not a misunderstand of freelancers, but an objection to the broad label of "journalist". I have a camera and a police scanner. If I go jump into some criminal act and do nothing to curb it/aid the perpetrators explicitly or implicitly, I shouldn't be considered one of them cause hey I have a camera and want to sell it to CNN?
I think someone with a camera documenting an active kidnapping/murder spree/etc... is different than someone taking pictures of a fire or the aftermath of a shooting in a city. But people commenting on this and being outraged by Israel are acting like these were people in PRESS vest doing their jobs in an official capacity that Israel has a vendetta against.
"Riding shotgun" was very poor phrasing on my part almost solely because I recall seeing a one of the freelancers taking a photo from the back of a pickup. I was more referring to being in the mix of the active ongoing massacre, not arriving in the aftermath.
As for your last point, yes Hamas was being quite public about it, but they were also slaughtering anyone amongst the civilians in Israel, so how are they ok with photographers literally amongst them documenting it if they weren't familiar/friendly with them? Because from what I was reading this wasn't footage or photos hours after the fact, but very much while attacks are ongoing and civilians were still being killed.
Like I said in a previous post, this isn't black and white, very much shades of grey. And I would be interested in finding out more about the actual circumstances some of this documenting was being taken during.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 10, 2023, 10:33:04 AM
Congrats. You have officially endorsed the ideology of every terrorist organization ever. Well done dumb dumb.
Israel's right to defend itself, and that means civilians will die, just like in the Ukraine war, which has now killed over 500,000. The Ukrainians are paying the price of their government's actions as well. Please point me to your post about the moral equivalence between Ukraine and Russia.
This is how war works; it is ugly.
And for you too ... I also understand your absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:41:24 AM
Israel's right to defend itself, and that means civilians will die, just like in the Ukraine war, which has now killed over 500,000. The Ukrainians are paying the price of their government's actions as well. Please point me to your post about the moral equivalence between Ukraine and Russia.
This is how war works; it is ugly.
Uh...no kidding to all of this. But that's not exactly what you said, so once again you're shifting goalposts
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:41:24 AM
And for you too ... I also understand your absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
You keep saying this, but I don't think you have any idea what it means. No one is trying to find moral equivalence. We're trying to correct your obvious factual errors and leaps in logic.
Moral equivalence is the new western progressive values, i.e. a phrase repeated meainglessly ad nauseum.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 10, 2023, 10:38:19 AM
https://youtu.be/AKN1Q5SjbeI?si=Ck17qIhC3VfT8F6S
This board banned me for a week because of my aggressive and insulting tone. I changed my handle and removed the insulting tone.
You are free to post as you wish, but I remember you were the one who objected to my previous tone. You even lectured me about it.
0 of 10
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:21:45 AM
Explain the difference.
I'll repeat what I said above. Adding your distinction makes no difference
----
As a citizen, you bear the responsibility and the consequence of your government's actions, whether a law they pass or a war they start.
And again ....
I also understand your absolute necessity for you to find moral equivalence. You're not going to get it.
I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink. Sorry, I don't have time to explain simple logic to someone who isn't interested, or isn't interested in having a reasonable discussion.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:34:22 AM
Of course, a right-leaning source is going to point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency at that Washington Post; do you expect this from another progressive anti-Isreal source like the New York Times or the BBC?
Are you not the least concerned about their bias and question them as an independent and neutral news source?
Speaking of the New York Times ... do you also find this delicious icing on the cake for your worldview?
Israeli envoy blasts NYT for rehiring reporter who praised Hitler
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-envoy-blasts-nyt-for-rehiring-reporter-who-praised-hitler/..
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F85MJu7WwAAdeVP?format=jpg&name=large)
Off the rails hilarity here.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 10, 2023, 10:45:26 AM
Uh...no kidding to all of this. But that's not exactly what you said, so once again you're shifting goalposts
You keep saying this, but I don't think you have any idea what it means. No one is trying to find moral equivalence. We're trying to correct your obvious factual errors and leaps in logic.
Again, you show your conceit. Your opinion is the only correct one, and everyone who disagrees with you is committing an
obvious factual error.
Are you incapable of seeing this?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 10, 2023, 10:48:48 AM
Off the rails hilarity here.
You find NYT Times reporters that praise Hitler funny?
Should we assume you are letting your true beliefs/feelings out here?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:50:59 AM
Again, you show your conceit. Your opinion is the only correct one, and everyone who disagrees with you is committing an obvious factual error.
Are you incapable of seeing this?
(https://i.giphy.com/media/x0npYExCGOZeo/giphy.webp)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 10, 2023, 10:47:32 AM
I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink. Sorry, I don't have time to explain simple logic to someone who isn't interested, or isn't interested in having a reasonable discussion.
You have defined
reasonable discussion. as agree with my opinion and accept it as an "obvious fact."
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 10, 2023, 10:52:26 AM
(https://i.giphy.com/media/x0npYExCGOZeo/giphy.webp)
Which do you want, to insult me or have a reasonable discussion?
I need some clarification.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:50:59 AM
Again, you show your conceit. Your opinion is the only correct one, and everyone who disagrees with you is committing an obvious factual error.
Uh no. Throughout the entirely of this topic you have made factual errors, and when those are pointed out to you, you simply ignore that and go out and made some more.
If you think I'm showing conceit...well you are probably correct. There is nothing worse than someone who insists he is correct, and when he is shown that is definitely NOT the case, just plows ahead with obvious leaps in logic.
So not only are you not very serious, you are either blatantly dishonest and/or kinda dumb.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:52:21 AM
You find NYT Times reporters that praise Hitler funny?
Should we assume you are letting your true beliefs/feelings out here?
No, I find it hilarious that you refer to the New York Times as "anti-Israel".
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:55:44 AM
Which do you want, to insult me or have a reasonable discussion?
I need some clarification.
I can't have a reasonable discussion, so I'm going to label you a clown. Because you're not a serious person.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 10, 2023, 10:45:58 AM
This board banned me for a week because of my aggressive and insulting tone. I changed my handle and removed the insulting tone.
You are free to post as you wish, but I remember you were the one who objected to my previous tone. You even lectured me about it.
0 of 10
https://youtu.be/WLfAf8oHrMo?si=FswQkFlK4DEUCiKW
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 10, 2023, 10:45:26 AM
You keep saying this, but I don't think you have any idea what it means. No one is trying to find moral equivalence. We're trying to correct your obvious factual errors and leaps in logic.
He doesn't understand the meaning of words and his "logic" is hilariously, pathetically awful. Honestly not sure what point there is to engaging with his ranting.
Harvard President Gay Announces Antisemitism Training, Condemns Pro-Palestine Phrase 'From the River to the Sea'
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/11/10/gay-antisemitism-education-email/
Isrealbhas a ceasefire so civilians can leave. Hamas fires on the civilians attempting to leave.
https://nypost.com/2023/11/10/news/video-reports-to-show-hamas-firing-on-civilians-fleeing-childrens-hospital/
Harrowing video shows Palestinian civilians being shot at — apparently by Hamas snipers — while trying to flee a pediatric cancer hospital where terrorists have barricaded themselves against the ongoing ground assault by Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip.
Footage posted on X Friday shows families walking onto a side street waving white flags before gunfire is heard, sending the crowd scrambling for shelter while a child can be heard crying.
—-
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 11, 2023, 07:24:01 AM
Isrealbhas a ceasefire so civilians can leave. Hamas fires on the civilians attempting to leave.
https://nypost.com/2023/11/10/news/video-reports-to-show-hamas-firing-on-civilians-fleeing-childrens-hospital/
Harrowing video shows Palestinian civilians being shot at — apparently by Hamas snipers — while trying to flee a pediatric cancer hospital where terrorists have barricaded themselves against the ongoing ground assault by Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip.
Footage posted on X Friday shows families walking onto a side street waving white flags before gunfire is heard, sending the crowd scrambling for shelter while a child can be heard crying.
—-
Hey it's their fault. They voted for them back in 2006. They deserve it.
Seems kinda insurrectionist'y in nyc to me. BLM gotta be all geeked up again. Never let a good crisis go to waste baby burning flags ya hoo. Anyone need a tv or bottle of courvoisier or sumpin
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 11, 2023, 08:33:15 AM
Seems kinda insurrectionist'y in nyc to me. BLM gotta be all geeked up again. Never let a good crisis go to waste baby burning flags ya hoo. Anyone need a tv or bottle of courvoisier or sumpin
9.5 out of 10
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 08, 2023, 09:19:41 PM
I saw what Brandeis did. I think it was a mistake. It may feel good now, but when that student org successfully sues them for hundreds of thousands of dollars it's going to feel really sh*tty knowing that a university with rich history of educating and graduating Jewish students is funding a group that espouses hate against the Jewish people. You've recently expressed admiration for FIRE, they are condemning the decision as illegal: https://www.thefire.org/news/free-speech-promises-be-damned-brandeis-bans-students-justice-palestine. Most reactions I've seen from those in the legal world have criticized the decision.
All universities COULD choose to violate the first amendment and punish students for protected free speech. But doing so is short sighted. Sure you stop the immediate hate speech but eventually a judge will reverse any decision you make and you end up funding a hate group. You temporarily win the battle before eventually losing the battle and the war.
So, are you advocating for the funding of antisemitic hate groups? I'm not.
I'm very happy the hate and violent speech has been silenced, but again, I'm on the fence about how this has been done.
So .. add Columbia to Brandeis that did this action. And since Harvard and Penn also signed a letter with Columbia, I expect they will do the same.
------
https://www.dailywire.com/news/ivy-league-school-shuts-down-anti-semitic-palestinian-student-groups
Columbia University announced on Friday that it was banning two anti-Semitic student groups on campus for the remainder of the fall term after they repeatedly violated school rules.
The private New York City school suspended Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) and Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) as official student groups in light of their recent actions on campus.
"This decision was made after the two groups repeatedly violated University policies related to holding campus events, culminating in an unauthorized event Thursday afternoon that proceeded despite warnings and included threatening rhetoric and intimidation," said Gerald Rosberg, Senior Executive Vice President of the University and Chair, Special Committee on Campus Safety.
"Suspension means the two groups will not be eligible to hold events on campus or receive University funding," he added. "Lifting the suspension will be contingent on the two groups demonstrating a commitment to compliance with University policies and engaging in consultations at a group leadership level with University officials."
Jewish Voice for Peace is an anti-Semitic organization that has held numerous anti-Israel rallies after Hamas murdered 1,400 Israelis in an unprecedented terrorist attack last month.
"Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) is a radical anti-Israel and anti-Zionist activist group that advocates for the boycott of Israel and eradication of Zionism," according to the ADL, which adds that they have "expressed support for violence and, occasionally, classic antisemitic tropes."
Students for Justice in Palestine has "explicitly endorsed the actions of Hamas and their armed attacks on Israeli civilians and voiced an increasingly radical call for confronting and 'dismantling' Zionism on U.S. college campuses," the ADL noted.
Dry up the money to these schools. While foreign students pay full boat tuition, pretty sure they're penny pinchers when it come to donations following graduation, aina?
Netanyahu states Israel will not give Gaza back after the war is over.
Why would they, hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 11, 2023, 05:48:34 PM
Netanyahu states Israel will not give Gaza back after the war is over.
Dead man walking.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza
Quote from: Pakuni on November 11, 2023, 05:54:18 PM
Dead man walking.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza
He won't. He'll be in jail if he does. It's where he belongs, of course.
Along wit da Buffoon, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 11, 2023, 05:54:18 PM
Dead man walking.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza
Bibi was toast after October 7. Just like Golda Meyer was toast after the 1973 war. Preventing surprise attacks is the primary job of the Israeli government and failing at this job ends a political career, full stop.
He will go, when the time is right. That is after the primary military objectives are achieved so Israel does not look weak.
And if history repeats, Israel will skip all the current choices and go to a new generation.
So what Bibi thinks will happen to Gaza after the primary military objectives does not matter, he will not be there to decide.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 11, 2023, 09:49:39 AM
Dry up the money to these schools. While foreign students pay full boat tuition, pretty sure they're penny pinchers when it come to donations following graduation, aina?
Not just the foreign students, hey?
I can also attest that a number of liberal American Jews have said similar things to me.
—————-
Bill Ackman a few hours ago
https://x.com/billackman/status/1723457121449124019?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
Putting aside whatever you think of @POTUS, it is time for him to step aside and allow other candidates to emerge.
We are in an extremely unstable, high-risk world. The job of the president is a high-stress, contact sport that requires extraordinary judgment, leadership, and indefatigable energy. You need to be at your mental and physical prime to succeed. Unfortunately, Biden is falling fast and often.
The argument before was: "He is the only one who can beat @realDonaldTrump." Recent polling makes it increasingly clear that he will lose to Trump. The polls will only get worse as he deteriorates and the risk in the world increases.
A growing number of liberal Democrats that I know who would never vote for Trump 'over their dead body' have recently told me that if the election were held today and the choice was Biden or Trump, they would vote for Trump.
There is a growing sentiment that the global disarray that we are witnessing is due to the perception of weakness in the White House. As such, voters will vote for strength and Biden is only getting weaker. People no longer want to rely on: ״Don't worry, he will surround himself with good people."
I know of a couple of extraordinary potential candidates who would likely run if Biden announced that he was not going to, but they won't otherwise.
Biden's approval ratings would go up, and the American people would cheer if he gave a speech tomorrow announcing his accomplishments, his goals for the next year, and his acknowledgment that one of the most important qualities of a great leader is knowing when the time has come to step aside for the next generation of leadership.
A year is enough time for a new candidate to build his/her constituency to win the presidency. The country needs a more centered choice to bring us together.
And Trump is highly vulnerable to the right alternative candidate. There are many Republicans who would gladly vote Democrat if a centrist, pro-business Democrat ran for office.
Our divisiveness makes us highly vulnerable to our enemies.
Imagine what life would be like if the substantial majority of Americans could wake up each morning excited about our country's leader. It has been much too long since this was last true.
There comes a time in life when we must rely on our closest family and friends to put their arms around us, sit us down, and tell us the truth.
If you are one of the President's closest family members or friends, please tell him that the time has come.
Madame First Lady, please, please do so. It is your most important civic responsibility.
All of us would be incredibly grateful and the world could be a much happier, safer place.
We are in serious trouble of our own making if it comes down to Trump v Biden.
There needs to be a ceasefire immediately in Israel/Palestine. Israel is losing support quickly, and a free, strong Palestine and Israel will lead to peace. There will never be peace until both countries are strong and thriving.
The backlash that started with Brandeis, moved to Columbia is growing.
Will the pro-Palestinian protestors go away quietly?
——-
https://x.com/bandlersbanter/status/1723228932194115909?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
Around 300 UCLA faculty members have signed onto this letter urging the university to "make the strongest possible statements condemning the barbaric Hamas attacks" and denounce "pro-Palestinian rallies on campus in which the massacres by Hamas were celebrated, including explicit calls for violence.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 11, 2023, 08:48:12 PM
We are in serious trouble of our own making if it comes down to Trump v Biden.
There needs to be a ceasefire immediately in Israel/Palestine. Israel is losing support quickly, and a free, strong Palestine and Israel will lead to peace. There will never be peace until both countries are strong and thriving.
Define "free and strong Palestine" because that is understood to mean giving them the tools and ability to genocide the Jews "from the river to the sea"
The Palestinians have not show any real interest in a two state solution. In anything, they had a state in Gaza as their have been zero Jews in it since 2005 (and when Isreal pulled out, they had to dig up Jewish graves and take the remains with them). Instead of turning it into a Hong Kong or Singapore of the Middle East, they turned it into an open air prison to launch terror attacks against Israel.
And who is Israel losing support with? American public opinion? First, THEY DON'T CARE, it is our conceit that we think this matters.
Second, this is very debatable as the polls continue to show overwhelming support for Israel.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 11, 2023, 08:55:54 PM
Define "free and strong Palestine" because that is understood to mean giving them the tools and ability to genocide the Jews "from the river to the sea"
The Palestinians have not show any real interest in a two state solution. In anything, they had a state in Gaza as their have been zero Jews in it since 2005 (and when Isreal pulled out, they had to dig up Jewish graves and take the remains with them). Instead of turning it into a Hong Kong or Singapore of the Middle East, they turned it into an open air prison to launch terror attacks against Israel.
And who is Israel losing support with? American public opinion? First, THEY DON'T CARE, it is our conceit that we think this matters.
Second, this is very debatable as the polls continue to show overwhelming support for Israel.
A free and strong Palestine has nothing to do with the existence of Israel. Wanting a free and strong Palestine does not mean wanting the destruction of Israel. Period. Wanting only Palestine "from the river to the sea" in my opinion means what you say it does, and it's abhorrent in my opinion.
How about a two state solution that is fair. Both countries have most certainly shown support for a two state solution, but extremists have gotten the say. Make a fair proposition and my guess is there will be overwhelming support.
There is most certainly not overwhelming support of Israel, right or wrong, I don't know. There is an increasing call for a ceasefire, an increasing feeling that Israel has gone too far. Of course, you are right, it may not matter.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 11, 2023, 08:48:12 PM
There needs to be a ceasefire immediately in Israel/Palestine. Israel is losing support quickly, and a free, strong Palestine and Israel will lead to peace. There will never be peace until both countries are strong and thriving.
I'm not sure how this works. A ceasefire with a fight against Hamas half done is not going to lead to anything productive in a "two state solution". Bad actors would still be in control of Palestinian interests and pushing to punish Israel for "genocide" or the like. All I can see is Israeli concessions benefitting Palestine, but actually benefitting Hamas and giving them more credibility, resources, and now public support to attack Israel even harder.
If the result of this is the elimination of Hamas' top leadership, Netanyahu being out of office (criminal charges or otherwise), and someone other than Abbas' dumbass running the PLO/Fatah, then I could be hopeful for peace. Any compromise/two state solution that still involves Hamas/PIJ in a leadership/power position in Palestine is one that will be short lived at best
Quote from: JWags85 on November 11, 2023, 09:30:51 PM
I'm not sure how this works. A ceasefire with a fight against Hamas half done is not going to lead to anything productive in a "two state solution". Bad actors would still be in control of Palestinian interests and pushing to punish Israel for "genocide" or the like. All I can see is Israeli concessions benefitting Palestine, but actually benefitting Hamas and giving them more credibility, resources, and now public support to attack Israel even harder.
If the result of this is the elimination of Hamas' top leadership, Netanyahu being out of office (criminal charges or otherwise), and someone other than Abbas' dumbass running the PLO/Fatah, then I could be hopeful for peace. Any compromise/two state solution that still involves Hamas/PIJ in a leadership/power position in Palestine is one that will be short lived at best
Very solid post. In my opinion, the only way there is a peace deal is for Israel to completely leave Gaza and the West Bank after eliminating Hamas.
And, a UN peace keeping force maintaining police presence in Gaza/West Bank to both ensure that no new settlements are made, and that there is not settler aggression, but also to stop the rise of any extremist threats.
The latter is the only way to make sure that extremists don't sabotage any peace plans.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 11, 2023, 09:30:51 PM
I'm not sure how this works. A ceasefire with a fight against Hamas half done is not going to lead to anything productive in a "two state solution". Bad actors would still be in control of Palestinian interests and pushing to punish Israel for "genocide" or the like. All I can see is Israeli concessions benefitting Palestine, but actually benefitting Hamas and giving them more credibility, resources, and now public support to attack Israel even harder.
If the result of this is the elimination of Hamas' top leadership, Netanyahu being out of office (criminal charges or otherwise), and someone other than Abbas' dumbass running the PLO/Fatah, then I could be hopeful for peace. Any compromise/two state solution that still involves Hamas/PIJ in a leadership/power position in Palestine is one that will be short lived at best
Fair
Quote from: forgetful on November 11, 2023, 09:34:42 PM
Very solid post. In my opinion, the only way there is a peace deal is for Israel to completely leave Gaza and the West Bank after eliminating Hamas.
And, a UN peace keeping force maintaining police presence in Gaza/West Bank to both ensure that no new settlements are made, and that there is not settler aggression, but also to stop the rise of any extremist threats.
The latter is the only way to make sure that extremists don't sabotage any peace plans.
Fair
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 11, 2023, 09:22:38 PM
How about a two state solution that is fair. Both countries have most certainly shown support for a two state solution, but extremists have gotten the say. Make a fair proposition and my guess is there will be overwhelming support.
Two state solutions date back to to the Balfour declaration in 1917. Their have been numerous proposals.
What have they all lacked that makes them unfair?
And overwhelming support from whom? The UN and Israel have made numerous proposals. The Palestinians always say no and never propose one. They say they want one, both those are half-hearted words made for Western progressives because they never follow up on them.
Further who does one propose a two state solution too? What Palestinian group has the authority to make this deal?
The Palestinian Authority? The are weak. Hezbollah? They want the destruction of Israel. Hamas?
Again, who speaks for the Palestinians?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 11, 2023, 10:01:59 PM
Two state solutions date back to to the Balfour declaration in 1917. Their have been numerous proposals.
What have they all lacked that makes them unfair?
And overwhelming support from whom? The UN and Israel have made numerous proposals. The Palestinians always say no and never propose one. They say they want one, both those are half-hearted words made for Western progressives because they never follow up on them.
Further who does one propose a two state solution too? What Palestinian group has the authority to make this deal?
The Palestinian Authority? The are weak. Hezbollah? They want the destruction of Israel. Hamas?
Again, who speaks for the Palestinians?
Repeating this over and over again does not make it true.
Quote from: forgetful on November 11, 2023, 09:34:42 PM
Very solid post. In my opinion, the only way there is a peace deal is for Israel to completely leave Gaza and the West Bank after eliminating Hamas.
And, a UN peace keeping force maintaining police presence in Gaza/West Bank to both ensure that no new settlements are made, and that there is not settler aggression, but also to stop the rise of any extremist threats.
The latter is the only way to make sure that extremists don't sabotage any peace plans.
Let's suppose UN blue helmets go into Palestinian areas. What happens?
Either they are friendly Arab forces that effectively do nothing and the attacks continue agaist Isreal and the situation is worse.
Or the Palestinians are outraged at this new occupation and what happens when the sucide bombers start killing blue helmets? And they will. Then what?
And if you send European and American blue helmets in, they will immediately declare Jihad against them and the war will continue.
I know you'll hate this answer, their is only one group on the planet that can keep peace in these areas, because they have before... The IDF.
Quote from: forgetful on November 11, 2023, 10:07:33 PM
Repeating this over and over again does not make it true.
Then give me a link to a map of a two state solution proposed by the Palestinians.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 11, 2023, 10:11:19 PM
Let's suppose UN blue helmets go into Palestinian areas. What happens?
Either they are friendly Arab forces that effectively do nothing and the attacks continue agaist Isreal and the situation is worse.
Or the Palestinians are outraged at this new occupation and what happens when the sucide bombers start killing blue helmets? And they will. Then what?
And if you send European and American blue helmets in, they will immediately declare Jihad against them and the war will continue.
I know you'll hate this answer, their is only one group on the planet that can keep peace in these areas, because they have before... The IDF.
if Israel completely left the area and a Jewish State was established in say Wyoming what do you think would happen to the Palestinians?
I'm for a two-state solution as well but with different partners and a slightly larger swath of land.
Good article about the internal problems the Democrat party is having with Israel.
I highighted Ritchie Torres strong pro-Isreal view below. And in that, I highlighted the real issue among the "complicated" and "nuanced" progressive crowd .... are Jews white or a different race?
They see the world through the simplicistic lens of the oppressor and the oppressed. So in every issue, they side with the oppressed, no matter how terrible they are, like Hamas and the Palestinians that back them. In their view, the oppressed are always right, and anything they did wrong, they were driven to this insanity by the oppressor.
Further complicating the issue is if progressives view Jews as a race or rich white people, the worst kind of oppressor.
A lot of this view is in this thread, claiming that people that support Israel (like me) view the Palestinians as "sub-human" (because they are non-white and oppressed by white people).
——
Two Young Democratic Stars Collide Over Israel and Their Party's Future
https://dnyuz.com/2023/11/11/two-young-democratic-stars-collide-over-israel-and-their-partys-future/
They are among the brightest political stars rising from New York. They were born just months apart, 40 years after the founding of Israel.
And at the most fraught moment for American-Israeli relations in decades, the clashing views of Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ritchie Torres offer a striking glimpse into the future of one of American politics' fiercest debates.
—
On the other side of the Bronx River, Mr. Torres, 35, who is gay and Afro-Latino, has staked out a strikingly different project to the right of many of his peers, offering himself as a counterweight to his party's leftward lurch.
His own social media following is relatively small — 170,000 followers on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, to Ms. Ocasio-Cortez's 13.2 million — but the combativeness of Mr. Torres's retorts has stood out. In just the last few days, he compared a cease-fire to asking Israel to "become the author of its own annihilation," called claims that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza "blood libel" and argued that most Israelis are not actually white, as those who see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a racial struggle claim, but "people of color in the American sense."[/i]
Mr. Torres has reserved special vitriol for the Democratic Socialists of America, the small but influential leftist group that has pushed for boycotts of Israel and counts Ms. Ocasio-Cortez as a member. In an interview, he said that the D.S.A. was trying to infiltrate the Democratic Party "to impose the ideological litmus tests on Israel" and "cleanse" those who disagree with them. He said he was on a "publicly stated mission" to undermine it.
"I do worry that the next generation is increasingly indoctrinated with anti-Israel hate so virulent that it renders them indifferent to the coldblooded murder of Jews in Israel," he said.
His views are no surprise to those who watched Mr. Torres, a proud college dropout and defender of public housing, evolve from left-aligned political upstart to more traditional Democratic congressman.
Though he represents an overwhelmingly Black and Latino district that includes only a few thousand Jewish voters, he has improbably made the conflict 5,700 miles away a top priority since 2015, when he traveled to Israel on a City Council delegation. It was his first trip abroad, and Mr. Torres said witnessing both the fragility of the frontier and Tel Aviv's openness to gay life left him with "profound empathy" for Israel and a commitment to a two-state solution.
A new twist on "from the river to the sea"
https://x.com/marionawfal/status/1723446783244644856?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
🚨JUST IN - "WE FIGHT WHEREVER WE MUST: LEBANON, SYRIA, JORDAN AND THE RED SEA"
Netanyahu:
"I warned Hezbollah, don't enter the war, it would be your worst mistake
All Hamas operatives must die, and we are going to continue full force.
We are also very well-prepared in the North"
This war seems far from coming to an end 😢
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 11, 2023, 08:43:23 PM
I can also attest that a number of liberal American Jews have said similar things to me.
—————-
Bill Ackman a few hours ago
https://x.com/billackman/status/1723457121449124019?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
Putting aside whatever you think of @POTUS, it is time for him to step aside and allow other candidates to emerge.
We are in an extremely unstable, high-risk world. The job of the president is a high-stress, contact sport that requires extraordinary judgment, leadership, and indefatigable energy. You need to be at your mental and physical prime to succeed. Unfortunately, Biden is falling fast and often.
The argument before was: "He is the only one who can beat @realDonaldTrump." Recent polling makes it increasingly clear that he will lose to Trump. The polls will only get worse as he deteriorates and the risk in the world increases.
A growing number of liberal Democrats that I know who would never vote for Trump 'over their dead body' have recently told me that if the election were held today and the choice was Biden or Trump, they would vote for Trump.
There is a growing sentiment that the global disarray that we are witnessing is due to the perception of weakness in the White House. As such, voters will vote for strength and Biden is only getting weaker. People no longer want to rely on: ״Don't worry, he will surround himself with good people."
I know of a couple of extraordinary potential candidates who would likely run if Biden announced that he was not going to, but they won't otherwise.
Biden's approval ratings would go up, and the American people would cheer if he gave a speech tomorrow announcing his accomplishments, his goals for the next year, and his acknowledgment that one of the most important qualities of a great leader is knowing when the time has come to step aside for the next generation of leadership.
A year is enough time for a new candidate to build his/her constituency to win the presidency. The country needs a more centered choice to bring us together.
And Trump is highly vulnerable to the right alternative candidate. There are many Republicans who would gladly vote Democrat if a centrist, pro-business Democrat ran for office.
Our divisiveness makes us highly vulnerable to our enemies.
Imagine what life would be like if the substantial majority of Americans could wake up each morning excited about our country's leader. It has been much too long since this was last true.
There comes a time in life when we must rely on our closest family and friends to put their arms around us, sit us down, and tell us the truth.
If you are one of the President's closest family members or friends, please tell him that the time has come.
Madame First Lady, please, please do so. It is your most important civic responsibility.
All of us would be incredibly grateful and the world could be a much happier, safer place.
The Botus will line his pockets in a buyout, aina?
Quote from: forgetful on November 11, 2023, 10:07:33 PM
Repeating this over and over again does not make it true.
The only way he can actually claim a valid point here is if people believe his lies are true. It's been his MO for years.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 12, 2023, 04:33:45 AM
The only way he can actually claim a valid point here is if people believe his lies are true. It's been his MO for years.
Please provide a link to a map of a Palestinian proposal for a two-state solution.
And remember a two state map also includes the Palestinian recognition of of Israel's right to exist, or its half of the two states, and security assurances from the Palestinians that they will stop the terrorist attacks and respect the Israeli half. Because without these, it is not a two state solution.
The poster seems confused, yelling liar, or "your facts are wrong" is not link to the map or proposal. The poster often think these words substitute for a fact or proof, but they do not.
——
For everyone else...no such proposal exists, or has every existed. Every British, UN, Isreali and American (Clinton in 2000) two state proposal has been rejected by the Palestinian leadership.
Why? Because the Palestinian leadership wants a one-state proposal..."from the river to the sea."
"From the river to the sea" is their proposed map.
The PLO, which was recognized by Israel as representative of the Palestinian people, were a party to the Oslo accords. The Palestinian people wanted peace negotiations with Israel as evidenced by the 2006 elections.
The idea that the Palestinians want Israel wiped off the map is a simplistic way of viewing the conflict and does not reflect its history. But you like it because you are a simplistic person. Nuance confuses you. It makes your worldview difficult to manage.
So you resort to lies and hyperbole. You are not a serious person who wants really desperately to be taken seriously. So you flail about, copy and pasting articles that provide you comfort. So sad.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 12, 2023, 06:46:17 AM
The PLO, which was recognized by Israel as representative of the Palestinian people, were a party to the Oslo accords. The Palestinian people wanted peace negotiations with Israel as evidenced by the 2006 elections.
The idea that the Palestinians want Israel wiped off the map is a simplistic way of viewing the conflict and does not reflect its history. But you like it because you are a simplistic person. Nuance confuses you. It makes your worldview difficult to manage.
So you resort to lies and hyperbole. You are not a serious person who wants really desperately to be taken seriously. So you flail about, copy and pasting articles that provide you comfort. So sad.
In December 2000 when an acutal propsal was offered for a true two-state solution, by Clinton and Israel, Arafat said no and went home. So much for the Olso accords.
You can read Ambassador Dennis Ross' account of how the PLO said no. This would also be the former MU professor Dennis Ross
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207243717/23-years-ago-israelis-and-palestinians-were-talking-about-a-two-state-solution
So all you have is some platitudes to a two-state solution meant to satsify western progressives like you but was never taken as a serious idea by the Palestinians. Because Palestinians don't want a two-state solution.
You still don't have a Palestinian proposed map for two-states. We do have a map for one state ... "river to sea."
—-
I also understand your worldview will not accept that Palestinian leadership does indeed say all the time they want to wipe Israel off the Map, Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA have repeatedly said it and do not recognize Isreal. Is their another Palestinian leadership group that only you know about that says what you want to hear?
So, since you cannot accept what they say and do, you conclude it must be a "factual error" so your worldview can stay intact.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 04:13:45 AM
A new twist on "from the river to the sea"
https://x.com/marionawfal/status/1723446783244644856?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
🚨JUST IN - "WE FIGHT WHEREVER WE MUST: LEBANON, SYRIA, JORDAN AND THE RED SEA"
Netanyahu:
"I warned Hezbollah, don't enter the war, it would be your worst mistake
All Hamas operatives must die, and we are going to continue full force.
We are also very well-prepared in the North"
This war seems far from coming to an end 😢
So, this is okay?
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 11, 2023, 09:37:15 PM
Fair
Uh....not fair. And what happened when they actually left Gaza in 2005? What exactly do you think a Palestinian State in either Gaza, the West Bank , or both would look like moving forward,? Why do you think they want to live side by side in peace with Israel? Based on what exactly? Did the PA show any sympathy whatsoever towards Israel after 1500 civilizations were murdered?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 07:18:13 AM
In December 2000 when an acutal propsal was offered for a true two-state solution, by Clinton and Israel, Arafat said no and went home. So much for the Olso accords.
You can read Ambassador Dennis Ross' account of how the PLO said no. This would also be the former MU professor Dennis Ross
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207243717/23-years-ago-israelis-and-palestinians-were-talking-about-a-two-state-solution
This is, at best, an incomplete telling of how the Oslo Accords fell apart. You're trying to mislead us here into believing that the deal broke down when Arafat walks away in the episode Ross recounts here. In reality, negotiations and efforts to implement the deal continued on both sides for years after.
An no, this isn't opinion, it's fact. You seem unable to tell the difference. I'd like to think you're just playing dumb, and not actually ... well, you know.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 12, 2023, 07:57:28 AM
Uh....not fair. And what happened when they actually left Gaza in 2005? What exactly do you think a Palestinian State in either Gaza, the West Bank , or both would look like moving forward,? Why do you think they want to live side by side in peace with Israel? Based on what exactly? Did the PA show any sympathy whatsoever towards Israel after 1500 civilizations were murdered?
Because those outside the extremes want peace. There has been peace. This is a nobody's right when everybody's wrong situation. And before you lambast me and call me an anti-Semite, yes, both Hamas and extremist Israel leadership have been aggressors. Perhaps, like most places (I won't say all), a less extreme regime would help. No sane person wants an existence where they fear being bombed, attacked, murdered. They want peace.
Question for you, and this is an honest one, I am clearly not as educated on the region or history as some are here. Whether right or wrong, justified or not, do you believe Israel actually left Gaza in 2005? What I mean is, you say there are no Israelis or Jews in Gaza, okay, I will accept that. Has Israel actually left if its policies, procedures, protections, whatever you want to call them affect the daily lives of Gazans or take away some control Gazans have over their own existence? Is any of the news info where it talks about Israel's control over supplies, water, oil, medicine, electricity, freedom true? Perhaps it isn't, and I should fully blame the Palestinians for their existence?
As you crush me for wanting a ceasefire, peace, two state existence as being naive and Western Progressive (whatever the hell that means) it boggles my mind that the alternative is complete destruction of another country, another people, freedom in the mindset of Western Authortarian Tyranny (I can make up nonsense labels, too). I just don't understand how anyone can want death, destruction, and war, but perhaps that is naive.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 12, 2023, 08:18:59 AM
This is, at best, an incomplete telling of how the Oslo Accords fell apart. You're trying to mislead us here into believing that the deal broke down when Arafat walks away in the episode Ross recounts here. In reality, negotiations and efforts to implement the deal continued on both sides for years after.
An no, this isn't opinion, it's fact. You seem unable to tell the difference. I'd like to think you're just playing dumb, and not actually ... well, you know.
And we still don't have a deal, 23 years later. And we still don't have a Palestinian proposed two state map, becuase have have never offered one, becuyase they don't want a two state solution.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 12, 2023, 07:49:19 AM
So, this is okay?
What is not okay?
Hezbollah entering the war?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 12, 2023, 08:18:59 AM
This is, at best, an incomplete telling of how the Oslo Accords fell apart. You're trying to mislead us here into believing that the deal broke down when Arafat walks away in the episode Ross recounts here. In reality, negotiations and efforts to implement the deal continued on both sides for years after.
An no, this isn't opinion, it's fact. You seem unable to tell the difference. I'd like to think you're just playing dumb, and not actually ... well, you know.
Yep. He's lying again.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 08:32:41 AM
And we still don't have a deal, 23 years later. And we still don't have a Palestinian proposed two state map, becuase have have never offered one, becuyase they don't want a two state solution.
Leaps to conclusions based on no evidence. IOW more lies.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 12, 2023, 08:20:16 AM
Because those outside the extremes want peace. There has been peace. This is a nobody's right when everybody's wrong situation. And before you lambast me and call me an anti-Semite, yes, both Hamas and extremist Israel leadership have been aggressors. Perhaps, like most places (I won't say all), a less extreme regime would help. No sane person wants an existence where they fear being bombed, attacked, murdered. They want peace.
Question for you, and this is an honest one, I am clearly not as educated on the region or history as some are here. Whether right or wrong, justified or not, do you believe Israel actually left Gaza in 2005? What I mean is, you say there are no Israelis or Jews in Gaza, okay, I will accept that. Has Israel actually left if its policies, procedures, protections, whatever you want to call them affect the daily lives of Gazans or take away some control Gazans have over their own existence? Is any of the news info where it talks about Israel's control over supplies, water, oil, medicine, electricity, freedom true? Perhaps it isn't, and I should fully blame the Palestinians for their existence?
As you crush me for wanting a ceasefire, peace, two state existence as being naive and Western Progressive (whatever the hell that means) it boggles my mind that the alternative is complete destruction of another country, another people, freedom in the mindset of Western Authortarian Tyranny (I can make up nonsense labels, too). I just don't understand how anyone can want death, destruction, and war, but perhaps that is naive.
Isreal has had a tight blockcade on Gaza for years becasue Hamas and PIJ ave used Gaza to launch terror attacks into Isreal (mainly rockets), They restrict the importation of material that can be used to make weapons.
This is why Hamas resorted to digging up water pipes to make rockets out of them, and left Gaza dependent on Isreal for water. Further Gaza has a acquifer that runs under it and by digging up the water pipes and mismanaging it, Hamas polluted it with wasterwater and it is now unsable.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/water-gaza-scarce-polluted-and-mostly-unfit-use#:~:text=The%20coastal%20aquifer%2C%20which%20Gaza,the%20aquifer%20is%20non%2Dpotable.
The Gazans have allowed their action to take away control of their daily lives. It happened again on October 7 and they have not lost even more control of their lives.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 12, 2023, 08:40:20 AM
Leaps to conclusions based on no evidence. IOW more lies.
Do you have a proposed two state map from the Palestinians are not?
Simple question, where is their plan?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 08:33:14 AM
What is not okay?
Hezbollah entering the war?
You mentioned it as a new twist on from the river to the sea, and cited a video of BN, which I assumed meant you are supporting Israel's version of the charged language and policy you despise. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, apologies.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 08:43:18 AM
Isreal has had a tight blockcade on Gaza for years becasue Hamas and PIJ ave used Gaza to launch terror attacks into Isreal (mainly rockets), They restrict the importation of material that can be used to make weapons.
This is why Hamas resorted to digging up water pipes to make rockets out of them, and left Gaza dependent on Isreal for water. Further Gaza has a acquifer that runs under it and by digging up the water pipes and mismanaging it, Hamas polluted it with wasterwater and it is now unsable.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/water-gaza-scarce-polluted-and-mostly-unfit-use#:~:text=The%20coastal%20aquifer%2C%20which%20Gaza,the%20aquifer%20is%20non%2Dpotable.
The Gazans have allowed their action to take away control of their daily lives. It happened again on October 7 and they have not lost even more control of their lives.
I didn't see in the article you cite any reference to Israel or Gaza being the issue. Do you know if Israel has intentionally blocked water, medicine, supplies, electricity from Gaza?
The article does talk about the minimum levels of water consumption and then compares Israel and Gaza. Does Israel have any responsibility to the Gazans to allow for/assist in increasing the fresh water supply to Gaza? Does Israel have control over the source of fresh water or its transport? Honest questions.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 08:44:24 AM
Do you have a proposed two state map from the Palestinians are not?
Simple question, where is their plan?
Shifting goalposts from earlier. You said "they always say no." That's wrong. Of course when you are shown to be wrong, you don't admit it. You just say "ShOw Me ThE mAp!!!"
You're a joke.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 08:43:18 AM
Isreal has had a tight blockcade on Gaza for years becasue Hamas and PIJ ave used Gaza to launch terror attacks into Isreal (mainly rockets), They restrict the importation of material that can be used to make weapons.
This is why Hamas resorted to digging up water pipes to make rockets out of them, and left Gaza dependent on Isreal for water. Further Gaza has a acquifer that runs under it and by digging up the water pipes and mismanaging it, Hamas polluted it with wasterwater and it is now unsable.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/water-gaza-scarce-polluted-and-mostly-unfit-use#:~:text=The%20coastal%20aquifer%2C%20which%20Gaza,the%20aquifer%20is%20non%2Dpotable.
The Gazans have allowed their action to take away control of their daily lives. It happened again on October 7 and they have not lost even more control of their lives.
Correct. I'm not sure why people don't grasp this. If there was no blockade what exactly do people think would happen? If every person in Israel put their hands up tomorrow Hamas would murder every single one of them. If Hamas put their hands up and released the hostages what do people think Israel would do?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 08:32:41 AM
And we still don't have a deal, 23 years later. And we still don't have a Palestinian proposed two state map, becuase have have never offered one, becuyase they don't want a two state solution.
1. Show me Israel's maps for a two-state solution.
2. We don't have a deal because the dealmakers either died (Arafat), were murdered (Rabin), left office (Clinton, Barak) or were pushed to the side and had their power diminished (Abbas) by hardliners on both sides (Hamas, Hezbollah, Netanyahu, Sharon) who were intent on spiking any agreement.
The reality is - as with most things - far more complex than you present it. The deal didn't fall apart because Arafat walked away from one negotiating session. Heck, two months after that occurred, Arafat and Barak held face-to-face meetings at Barak's home.The deal fell apart because hardliners on both sides took power and wanted it to fall apart.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 12, 2023, 09:06:00 AM
Shifting goalposts from earlier. You said "they always say no." That's wrong. Of course when you are shown to be wrong, you don't admit it. You just say "ShOw Me ThE mAp!!!"
You're a joke.
Palestinian leaders have said no to every proposed for a two state solution since 1948. They have never proposed a two-stage solution. Palestinian leaders of constantly called on the end of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 12, 2023, 08:54:16 AM
I didn't see in the article you cite any reference to Israel or Gaza being the issue. Do you know if Israel has intentionally blocked water, medicine, supplies, electricity from Gaza?
The article does talk about the minimum levels of water consumption and then compares Israel and Gaza. Does Israel have any responsibility to the Gazans to allow for/assist in increasing the fresh water supply to Gaza? Does Israel have control over the source of fresh water or its transport? Honest questions.
Gaza has an aquifer that if managed properly can provide all the water that the 2 million Gazans need. It was not managed properly and by digging up the water pipes it polluted it and now it's unusable. That is not Israel's fault.
As a consequence, Gaza is depended on Israel for water, electricity, and mobile phone service. They had 17 years to build their own systems, and they did not. They were giving money by the UN and the world to do this, and they diverted it towards building, tunnels, and creating tour on Israel.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 03:52:34 AM
Good article about the internal problems the Democrat party is having with Israel.
That actually was a good article, Douchey. It was mostly anecdotal, but it was an interesting read nonetheless.
Now do a little googling about the internal problems Republicans are having with all of the anti-Semites in their party, starting with the white-supremacist-supporting 45th president, moving to the likes of Jewish Space Laser and Gosar, and filtering down to neo-Nazi-loving legislators in Texas and other states. Thanks!
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 11, 2023, 08:43:23 PM
Bill Ackman a few hours ago
The argument before was: "He is the only one who can beat @realDonaldTrump." Recent polling makes it increasingly clear that he will lose to Trump. The polls will only get worse as he deteriorates and the risk in the world increases.
A growing number of liberal Democrats that I know who would never vote for Trump 'over their dead body' have recently told me that if the election were held today and the choice was Biden or Trump, they would vote for Trump.
Thanks for this political screed that really had nothing to do with "Israel is at War," but did give you a way to make your personal political points. Well done.
I mean, it's good to know that Bill Ackman singlehandedly could solve all of the problems in the Middle East if only there were a different U.S. president. Now remind us ... why does what Bill Ackman says matter any more than what you or I or any other Scooper or LeBron or Bloomberg or Levin or Maddow or Ingraham or anyone else might say?
If we're gonna throw out the "I know liberal Dems, and they tell me ... " crapola, I know a freakin' LOT of liberal Democrats, and there isn't a single one who would ever, ever, ever, under any circumstance, vote for the 91-felony Criminal Defendant. A few would at least consider voting for Jill Stein or some other non-major-party candidate, but 0.00% would vote for the guy they consider to be pure evil. But sure, Ackman and you each know a bazillion liberals who will vote for a person who embraces anti-Semites because ... Israel? OK.
Oh, and in November 2019, here's what a compilation of polls said about potential matchups between Trump and Sanders, Warren, Harris and Buttigieg:
(https://fm-static.cnbc.com/awsmedia/chart/2019/11/05/Trump%20v%20Democrats%20national%20average%20Nov%202019.1572971527821.png?w=929&h=523&vtcrop=y)
Do you really think those polls a year before the 2020 election were "right," and that any of those four would have easily defeated your guy? Why are polls always "right" when y'all like the result they suggest but "wrong" when you don't?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 09:26:52 AM
Gaza has an aquifer that if managed properly can provide all the water that the 2 million Gazans need. It was not managed properly and by digging up the water pipes it polluted it and now it's unusable. That is not Israel's fault.
As a consequence, Gaza is depended on Israel for water, electricity, and mobile phone service. They had 17 years to build their own systems, and they did not. They were giving money by the UN and the world to do this, and they diverted it towards building, tunnels, and creating tour on Israel.
Is Israel to blame if it is the only solution to the water crisis in Gaza and actively works to maintain and exacerbate the crisis?
Is Israel to blame for the blockades? Or, the controlling electricity or fuel that run the desalination plants and pumps?
I agree that the water crisis responsibility is squarely on the Palestine leadership, is it also on Israeli leadership? And, if Israel has some of the power and control, do they have at least some of the responsibility?
Not to distract from whatever Heisey's current tangent is, but going back a bit, I think there is interesting nuance to "Israel is losing support".
I don't necessarily disagree, but I think nuance on what "Israel" means and who the support is referring to. Netanyahu and his government losing support? Absolutely. Israel, its people, and its collective cause? I don't know if I agree...
Why? Cause I think we need to look at who is exactly opposing Israel. Both the pro-Israel and pro-Palestine sides have extremes. We see the former here every day. But I think the pro-Palestine support surge is interesting. Look at the marches, look at the social media postings, etc... By and large its many people who had no dog in the fight going back 3 months, probably couldn't have pointed out Gaza on a map, and who weren't previously supportive of Israel and have switched.
Screaming and yelling about Israel as a genocidal apartheid state, "colonizers", "a country built on a mission of subjugation" etc... I'm not going to recklessly label them anti-Semitic, but whether they realize it or not, the utopia they are envisioning for a "Free Palestine" is one without Israel. I'm not saying they are calling for the killing and destruction of Israel, but rather embracing a half baked idea that has no realistic grounding in what peace could actually look like. Because they are immersed in a black and white social media world of binary good and bad, they feel Palestine is good and Israel bad, so it should all swing that way.
Like I alluded to in a previous post, lets say the Free Palestine movement got EVERYTHING they wanted. Tomorrow Israel is gone, Palestinians now control everything from Jordan to the Med. Its still gonna be a mess cause its Hamas and current Fatah leadership running everything. But hey, the "colonizers" are gone!!
Quote from: JWags85 on November 12, 2023, 10:10:05 AM
Not to distract from whatever Heisey's current tangent is, but going back a bit, I think there is interesting nuance to "Israel is losing support".
I don't necessarily disagree, but I think nuance on what "Israel" means and who the support is referring to. Netanyahu and his government losing support? Absolutely. Israel, its people, and its collective cause? I don't know if I agree...
Why? Cause I think we need to look at who is exactly opposing Israel. Both the pro-Israel and pro-Palestine sides have extremes. We see the former here every day. But I think the pro-Palestine support surge is interesting. Look at the marches, look at the social media postings, etc... By and large its many people who had no dog in the fight going back 3 months, probably couldn't have pointed out Gaza on a map, and who weren't previously supportive of Israel and have switched.
Screaming and yelling about Israel as a genocidal apartheid state, "colonizers", "a country built on a mission of subjugation" etc... I'm not going to recklessly label them anti-Semitic, but whether they realize it or not, the utopia they are envisioning for a "Free Palestine" is one without Israel. I'm not saying they are calling for the killing and destruction of Israel, but rather embracing a half baked idea that has no realistic grounding in what peace could actually look like. Because they are immersed in a black and white social media world of binary good and bad, they feel Palestine is good and Israel bad, so it should all swing that way.
Like I alluded to in a previous post, lets say the Free Palestine movement got EVERYTHING they wanted. Tomorrow Israel is gone, Palestinians now control everything from Jordan to the Med. Its still gonna be a mess cause its Hamas and current Fatah leadership running everything. But hey, the "colonizers" are gone!!
Lots of quality in your first two paragraphs. Very good thought on using words carefully. When I say Israel is losing support, I mean BN and the government. That is absolutely on me, as I have repeatedly made the statement that Hamas is not Palestine. BN and the extremist government is not Israel. Thank you for that. I do not believe Israel as a country is losing support, as I agree many had no idea about this area of the world or his history before a month ago and will get back to not caring in another.
But, then you sort of go away from your so well said start and go against your so well thought out stance to use words carefully. Does capital FP Free Palestine mean the obliteration and removal of Israel and the entirety of the followers of Judaism? If yes, that's abhorrent. Does my lowercase free Palestine mean the same to you or others? If so, how do you discuss the idea of a free Palestine and a free Israel in terms and capital letters that are not extremist in nature or perception?
Is it really a black and white situation? Is it really Palestine good, Israel bad? The reverse? Oppressed good, oppressors bad? Or is it intellectual laziness (not you, the idea)? Even in these three questions, there is a ton of nuance and vagueness. Who is the oppressor? The oppressed? What is good?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 09:21:44 AM
Palestinian leaders have said no to every proposed for a two state solution since 1948. They have never proposed a two-stage solution. Palestinian leaders of constantly called on the end of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people.
Nope
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 09:21:44 AM
Palestinian leaders have said no to every proposed for a two state solution since 1948. They have never proposed a two-stage solution.
I've posted previous plans offered by Palestinians here multiple times. Even commented on the fact that even the Hamas charter also proposes a 2-state solution, which I admitted that I view it as an empty offer as they want to use it as a way to get independence, and then to continue to fight Israel.
You ignore all them, because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. So you make up crap instead.
And regarding the Clinton negotiations. They didn't end because Arafat walked away. That is revisionist history and BS. Barak walked away, because they were having new elections and he was polling very low and was likely to lose, in part because of the negotiations. He was replaced by Sharon.
And Arafat largely was against some aspects of the plan, like giving the entire Temple Mount to Israel, including the El-Aqsa Mosque. Those disagreements were considered outside of the "Clinton Parameters," as the parameters all included the Temple Mount being given to Israel.
So again, you are making up history.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 12, 2023, 10:21:23 AM
Lots of quality in your first two paragraphs. Very good thought on using words carefully. When I say Israel is losing support, I mean BN and the government. That is absolutely on me, as I have repeatedly made the statement that Hamas is not Palestine. BN and the extremist government is not Israel. Thank you for that. I do not believe Israel as a country is losing support, as I agree many had no idea about this area of the world or his history before a month ago and will get back to not caring in another.
But, then you sort of go away from your so well said start and go against your so well thought out stance to use words carefully. Does capital FP Free Palestine mean the obliteration and removal of Israel and the entirety of the followers of Judaism? If yes, that's abhorrent. Does my lowercase free Palestine mean the same to you or others? If so, how do you discuss the idea of a free Palestine and a free Israel in terms and capital letters that are not extremist in nature or perception?
Is it really a black and white situation? Is it really Palestine good, Israel bad? The reverse? Oppressed good, oppressors bad? Or is it intellectual laziness (not you, the idea)? Even in these three questions, there is a ton of nuance and vagueness. Who is the oppressor? The oppressed? What is good?
Good call out. And I'll clarify cause you're right, I blended it a bit.
"free Palestine" is to me, just any benefit of the Palestinian people and self rule, ideally a solid and relatively peaceful two state solution. I don't think its fundamentally anti-Israel in any way, and its more focused on self determination.
"Free Palestine" was, IMO, not really different from the above, until recently. And not everyone who is loudly and proudly proclaiming FP right now is anti-Israel/Zionism/etc.. but its been co-opted by many who, at best, are ill informed and just looking to get riled up about something.
And there is not "good and evil" holistically, except for Hamas, IMO. I think there are people within Israel government/the IDF who can be thought of as having evil intentions, but I don't think Israel is evil in totality.
I think Israel is an oppressor, but some of what is oppressive I don't necessarily blame them for. But at the same time, I think Hamas and the government of the West Bank are oppressive as well. There is a multitude of unfortunate and oppressive factors that are affecting the Palestinian people, but its usually just funneled all into venom at Israel.
No idea why I am engaging H2O, but I'll try again to impart some actual history.
Up until the late 80's (with the exception of the original UN partition plan in 1948), there were no offers by Israel or the US for a 2-state solution. Everything that was discussed, and offered by Israel was "granting autonomy to Palestinians," with no plan ever for them to have their own state (that I'm aware of). That means they would always be under threat from Israel, and would have no means to stop new settlements, as they had no legal rights as a state (think Gaza post 2005).
In the late 80's and 90's actual progress was made, and Arafat was willing to negotiate on 2-state solutions. Including their own proposals of what the states would look like...largely based on the 1967-68 borders. As part of this, Jordan gave up the West Bank to Palestine to show good faith towards a peace plan and a 2-state solution.
This was largely led by more moderate left-wing Israeli Prime Ministers, that were open to a 2-state solution.
This effectively ended when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Right-Wing extremists that opposed his progress to a 2-state solution. And, in the next elections his successor (Peres) was ousted, to a large part because of his part in 2-state negotiations.
He was succeeded by Netanyahu...part of the Likud Party.
The Likud party to this date, has in their official charter/policies language saying they are against a Palestinian state ever being created west of the Jordan River.
Clinton was able to restart negotiations progress when Ehud Barak was in charge. Again, he was part of the left-wing parties open to 2-state solutions. And he was voted out, because of it.
This is a long historical process, where within each demographic there are hard core opponents to allowing anything resembling a 2-state solution. There have been interludes for both groups that had leaders that really wanted a 2-state solution, but they were often either voted out, assassinated, or on the Palestinian side sabotaged by extremist terrorist groups hell-bent on blocking a 2-state solution, and/or under pressure from these groups to not move forward on a deal (e.g. threat of removal/coup).
One of the reasons no deal has ever been reached by the moderates is because: What do you do with Jerusalem, and more importantly the Temple Mount? Neither side wants to give up the Temple Mount (even moderates).
Pretending that the Palestinians have never made any proposals, and/or are the only historic block to a 2-state solution/peace plan is frankly at best naive, at worst intentionally deceiving.
Note: Also, this likely isn't a perfect historical recount of events. It was written faster than I would normally like to do for a historical summary. Just meant to highlight complexities of the historical situation, and highlight some of the historical opposition form (Israel...aka the side H2O ignores).
Quote from: JWags85 on November 12, 2023, 11:32:39 AM
Good call out. And I'll clarify cause you're right, I blended it a bit.
"free Palestine" is to me, just any benefit of the Palestinian people and self rule, ideally a solid and relatively peaceful two state solution. I don't think its fundamentally anti-Israel in any way, and its more focused on self determination.
"Free Palestine" was, IMO, not really different from the above, until recently. And not everyone who is loudly and proudly proclaiming FP right now is anti-Israel/Zionism/etc.. but its been co-opted by many who, at best, are ill informed and just looking to get riled up about something.
And there is not "good and evil" holistically, except for Hamas, IMO. I think there are people within Israel government/the IDF who can be thought of as having evil intentions, but I don't think Israel is evil in totality.
I think Israel is an oppressor, but some of what is oppressive I don't necessarily blame them for. But at the same time, I think Hamas and the government of the West Bank are oppressive as well. There is a multitude of unfortunate and oppressive factors that are affecting the Palestinian people, but its usually just funneled all into venom at Israel.
Thanks for the clarification. I figured you meant what you have now written above, as the above is more clear/consistent with your sentiments/tones, but always good to make it clear to everyone.
Certainly plenty of room in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Lebanon for a Palestinian state. Oh chit, they don't want their brothers and sisters, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
Quote from: JWags85 on November 12, 2023, 11:32:39 AM
Good call out. And I'll clarify cause you're right, I blended it a bit.
"free Palestine" is to me, just any benefit of the Palestinian people and self rule, ideally a solid and relatively peaceful two state solution. I don't think its fundamentally anti-Israel in any way, and its more focused on self determination.
"Free Palestine" was, IMO, not really different from the above, until recently. And not everyone who is loudly and proudly proclaiming FP right now is anti-Israel/Zionism/etc.. but its been co-opted by many who, at best, are ill informed and just looking to get riled up about something.
And there is not "good and evil" holistically, except for Hamas, IMO. I think there are people within Israel government/the IDF who can be thought of as having evil intentions, but I don't think Israel is evil in totality.
I think Israel is an oppressor, but some of what is oppressive I don't necessarily blame them for. But at the same time, I think Hamas and the government of the West Bank are oppressive as well. There is a multitude of unfortunate and oppressive factors that are affecting the Palestinian people, but its usually just funneled all into venom at Israel.
Great post. Appreciate this, as I think we can all see how a word here and there can be twisted and weaponized, or rather just misinterpreted or misused.
Quote from: forgetful on November 12, 2023, 11:17:47 AM
You ignore all them, because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. So you make up crap instead.
So again, you are making up history.
He.doesn't.care.
I'm curious why no one ever mentions both the Christian and Jewish refugees in the Middle East since 1948?
Quote from: forgetful on November 12, 2023, 11:17:47 AM
I've posted previous plans offered by Palestinians here multiple times. Even commented on the fact that even the Hamas charter also proposes a 2-state solution, which I admitted that I view it as an empty offer as they want to use it as a way to get independence, and then to continue to fight Israel.
You ignore all them, because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. So you make up crap instead.
And regarding the Clinton negotiations. They didn't end because Arafat walked away. That is revisionist history and BS. Barak walked away, because they were having new elections and he was polling very low and was likely to lose, in part because of the negotiations. He was replaced by Sharon.
And Arafat largely was against some aspects of the plan, like giving the entire Temple Mount to Israel, including the El-Aqsa Mosque. Those disagreements were considered outside of the "Clinton Parameters," as the parameters all included the Temple Mount being given to Israel.
So again, you are making up history.
Everyone in the room said the opposite of you.
May 23, 2002
Arafat didn't negotiate - he just kept saying no
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3
Ever since the start of the second Palestinian intifada, a row has raged over who was responsible for the breakdown of the peace process. Now, for the first time, former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak has weighed in, accusing Yasser Arafat of being a liar who talked peace while secretly plotting the destruction of Israel.
—-
The true story of Camp David was that for the first time in the history of the conflict the American president put on the table a proposal, based on UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, very close to the Palestinian demands, and Arafat refused even to accept it as a basis for negotiations, walked out of the room, and deliberately turned to terrorism."
Clinton was speaking of the two-week-long Camp David conference in July 2000 which he had organised and mediated and its failure, and the eruption at the end of September of the Palestinian intifada which has continued since. Halfway through the conference, apparently on July 18, Clinton had "slowly" - to avoid misunderstanding - read out to Arafat a document, endorsed in advance by Barak, outlining the main points of a future settlement. The proposals included the establishment of a demilitarised Palestinian state on some 92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, with some territorial compensation for the Palestinians from pre-1967 Israeli territory; the dismantling of most of the settlements and the concentration of the bulk of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel; the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem, in which some Arab neighborhoods would become sovereign Palestinian territory and others would enjoy "functional autonomy"; Palestinian sovereignty over half the Old City of Jerusalem (the Muslim and Christian quarters) and "custodianship," though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount; a return of refugees to the prospective Palestinian state though with no "right of return" to Israel proper; and the organisation by the international community of a massive aid programme to facilitate the refugees' rehabilitation.
Arafat said no. Enraged, Clinton banged on the table and said: "You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe." A formal Palestinian rejection of the proposals reached the Americans the next day. The summit sputtered on for a few days more but to all intents and purposes it was over.
Today Barak portrays Arafat's behaviour at Camp David as a "performance" geared to exacting from the Israelis as many concessions as possible without ever seriously intending to reach a peace settlement or sign an "end to the conflict".
"He did not negotiate in good faith; indeed, he did not negotiate at all. He just kept saying no to every offer, never making any counterproposals of his own," he says. Barak shifts between charging Arafat with "lacking the character or will" to make a historic compromise (as did the late Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1977-79, when he made peace with Israel) to accusing him of secretly planning Israel's demise while he strings along a succession of Israeli and Western leaders and, on the way, hoodwinks "naive journalists".
"What they [Arafat and his colleagues] want is a Palestinian state in all of Palestine," says Barak. "What we see as self-evident, [the need for] two states for two peoples, they reject. Israel is too strong at the moment to defeat, so they formally recognise it. But their game plan is to establish a Palestinian state while always leaving an opening for further 'legitimate' demands down the road. They will exploit the tolerance and democracy of Israel first to turn it into 'a state for all its citizens', as demanded by the extreme nationalist wing of Israel's Arabs and extremist leftwing Jewish Israelis. Then they will push for a binational state and then demography and attrition will lead to a state with a Muslim majority and a Jewish minority. This would not necessarily involve kicking out all the Jews. But it would mean the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. This, I believe, is their vision. Arafat sees himself as a reborn Saladin - the Kurdish Muslim general who defeated the Crusaders in the 12th century - and Israel as just another, ephemeral Crusader state."
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 12, 2023, 11:51:04 AM
Great post. Appreciate this, as I think we can all see how a word here and there can be twisted and weaponized, or rather just misinterpreted or misused.
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/the-bad-faith-behind-free-palestine-619547
One of the most common and insidious catchphrases in the anti-Israel campaign is "Free Palestine," a notion seemingly of liberation but actually a negation of Jews' rights to land that has been included in daily prayers for thousands of years. Groups like Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) and Jewish Voice for Peace use the call to "Free Palestine" as a rallying cry on college campuses. The phrase is often adopted by other progressive groups – such as Black Lives Matter and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender organizations – under the aegis of intersectionality.
The bad faith nature of the "Free Palestine" movement revealed itself in November 2019 at the University of California, Berkeley's "Protest Gaza" event. Club Z alumni invited the founder and executive director of the organization, Masha Merkulova, to attend the event and show her support for Israel. To expose the hypocrisy of the movement, Merkulova held a sign that read, "Free Palestine = Kill Jews."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 03:36:01 PM
Everyone in the room said the opposite of you.
Everyone in the room = an interview with Ehud Barak.
And people say you're not serious?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 12, 2023, 09:20:28 AM
1. Show me Israel's maps for a two-state solution.
2. We don't have a deal because the dealmakers either died (Arafat), were murdered (Rabin), left office (Clinton, Barak) or were pushed to the side and had their power diminished (Abbas) by hardliners on both sides (Hamas, Hezbollah, Netanyahu, Sharon) who were intent on spiking any agreement.
The reality is - as with most things - far more complex than you present it. The deal didn't fall apart because Arafat walked away from one negotiating session. Heck, two months after that occurred, Arafat and Barak held face-to-face meetings at Barak's home.The deal fell apart because hardliners on both sides took power and wanted it to fall apart.
Dinner was September 26,2000
https://www.deseret.com/2000/9/26/19530805/barak-and-arafat-talk-and-joke-151-but-make-no-progress
Three days after the dinner the PLO started the Second Intifada, which slaughtered thousands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
So, now we know, when Palestinians start slaughtering Jews, without provocation, its both sides at fault.
Just like October 7.
So by your logic, there's no Possible Way, Palestinians could ever be at fault, even if they were to completely genocide. 8 million Jews.
It would be both sides fault.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 12, 2023, 03:55:38 PM
Everyone in the room = an interview with Ehud Barak.
And people say you're not serious?
I understand you have your worldview and it can never be violated. But this unserious person was also in the room and thinks Arafat walked away because he never wanted a deal.
This was the best deal they were ever going to get. And after October 7 this will never happen again.
——
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit.[37][38][39] Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr, a former minister in the Palestinian Authority.[40] In My Life, Clinton wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 03:44:54 PM
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/the-bad-faith-behind-free-palestine-619547
One of the most common and insidious catchphrases in the anti-Israel campaign is "Free Palestine," a notion seemingly of liberation but actually a negation of Jews' rights to land that has been included in daily prayers for thousands of years. Groups like Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) and Jewish Voice for Peace use the call to "Free Palestine" as a rallying cry on college campuses. The phrase is often adopted by other progressive groups – such as Black Lives Matter and lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender organizations – under the aegis of intersectionality.
The bad faith nature of the "Free Palestine" movement revealed itself in November 2019 at the University of California, Berkeley's "Protest Gaza" event. Club Z alumni invited the founder and executive director of the organization, Masha Merkulova, to attend the event and show her support for Israel. To expose the hypocrisy of the movement, Merkulova held a sign that read, "Free Palestine = Kill Jews."
Appreciate the post, and I'll ask you the same question. How do we have a conversation about a free Palestine and a free Israel without using/misusing charged words or have them be misperceived even when explained or qualified? There is a real discussion for two free and independent states, is disallowing is disavowing the use of the words a free Palestine simply ignoring that option? Is it dismissive? Inhumane? Racist? Islamophobic? Naive?
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 12, 2023, 04:09:27 PM
Appreciate the post, and I'll ask you the same question. How do we have a conversation about a free Palestine and a free Israel without using/misusing charged words or have them be misperceived even when explained or qualified? There is a real discussion for two free and independent states, is disallowing is disavowing the use of the words a free Palestine simply ignoring that option? Is it dismissive? Inhumane? Racist? Islamophobic? Naive?
Two-state solution where both sides agree to land that is their sovereign state, and live in peace with theor neighbor.
A good start a good start would be for the Palestinians to put down their weapons and stop talking about murdering Jews. But they won't.
——
In 1948 a two-stage solution was offered, by the UN, to the Palestinians, as part of the creation of the state of Israel. They rejected it and the next day they attacked Israel declaring war.
In 2000, as noted in the posts above, Arafat with given probably the best two state deal they will ever get. He walked away from the table without even proposing a counter offer. Two months later was the second intifada that killed thousands.
For 75 years Palestinian leaders of talked about one-state solution, which illuminates, the Jews and gives the Palestinians the land that is now Israel.
The term free Palestine is a highly charged phrase, just like from the river to the sea.
More than 1,600 Jewish Harvard alumni threaten to withdraw donations over antisemitism concerns
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/11/economy/harvard-alumni-donations-antisemitism/index.html
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 04:09:10 PM
I understand you have your worldview and it can never be violated. But this unserious person was also in the room and thinks Arafat walked away because he never wanted a deal.
This was the best deal they were ever going to get. And after October 7 this will never happen again.
——
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit.[37][38][39] Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr, a former minister in the Palestinian Authority.[40] In My Life, Clinton wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one."
You link to a wikipedia article, ignore all the aspects saying the exact opposite of your stance, and then cherry pick one blurb that supports your assertion (including ignoring what one of Clinton's lead people said).
And negotiations continued at the Taba Summit, where Barak walked away because of impending elections.
You repeatedly take dishonest approaches to discussion.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 04:19:27 PM
Two-state solution where both sides agree to land that is their sovereign state, and live in peace with theor neighbor.
A good start a good start would be for the Palestinians to put down their weapons and stop talking about murdering Jews. But they won't.
——
In 1948 a two-stage solution was offered, by the UN, to the Palestinians, as part of the creation of the state of Israel. They rejected it and the next day they attacked Israel declaring war.
In 2000, as noted in the posts above, Arafat with given probably the best two state deal they will ever get. He walked away from the table without even proposing a counter offer. Two months later was the second intifada that killed thousands.
For 75 years Palestinian leaders of talked about one-state solution, which illuminates, the Jews and gives the Palestinians the land that is now Israel.
The term free Palestine is a highly charged phrase, just like from the river to the sea.
I assume you agree another good start would be to end the occupation, lift the blockades, give control of water/supplies/medicine/electricity to the Palestinians, too. Not as an indictment of Israel, but rather to your point of land agreement and a good start.
Why do you think the two state proposals up to this point are fair for either Israel or Palestine? Israel has also rejected proposals and overstepped on others, so clearly they don't think the proposals or even agreements are fair. Who "controls" the holy sites equally important to both?
I realize you want a free Israel, only Israel, but that is also flawed and charged. I will refrain from saying free before Palestine, as I hear you and want to continue a dialog that doesn't continue to spiral back to weaponizing words. So I will say, I want a self-governing Palestine with access to clean water, supplies, medicine, electricity, free from internal terrorists and external control, free from bombings both internal and external, free to peacefully exist alongside Israel.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 04:33:23 PM
More than 1,600 Jewish Harvard alumni threaten to withdraw donations over antisemitism concerns
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/11/economy/harvard-alumni-donations-antisemitism/index.html
Here, here 👏🏻, hey?
https://www.the-express.com/entertainment/celebrity-news/118093/Taylor-Swift-Charlie-Kirk/amp
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 03:56:25 PM
Dinner was September 26,2000
https://www.deseret.com/2000/9/26/19530805/barak-and-arafat-talk-and-joke-151-but-make-no-progress
Three days after the dinner the PLO started the Second Intifada, which slaughtered thousands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
The PLO did not start the Second Intifada. Yet another lie.
And did anything significant happen between these dates? Something that Arafat specifically warned Barak would kill any chance of a deal? Something he urged Barak not to let happen? Something done by someone who wanted to kill the deal?
Think about it for a bit and get back to me.
Quote
So, now we know, when Palestinians start slaughtering Jews, without provocation, its both sides at fault.
Just like October 7.
So by your logic, there's no Possible Way, Palestinians could ever be at fault, even if they were to completely genocide. 8 million Jews.
It would be both sides fault.
Dishonest as always.
Quote from: forgetful on November 12, 2023, 04:39:52 PM
You link to a wikipedia article, ignore all the aspects saying the exact opposite of your stance, and then cherry pick one blurb that supports your assertion (including ignoring what one of Clinton's lead people said).
And negotiations continued at the Taba Summit, where Barak walked away because of impending elections.
You repeatedly take dishonest approaches to discussion.
I showed what Bill Clinton's opinion was. He blamed Arafat for walking away because he was never serious because they don't want a two-state solution.
——-
And if you're talking about, Robert Malley, the only person who blamed the west, you do know that he was fired in May, sorry I need to put on forced leave, and is under investigation for being an Iranian spy.
So do you have any other sources that say it was the America/Israel's fault other than an Iranian spy?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/06/rob-malley-iran-security-clearance-investigation/
Quote from: Pakuni on November 12, 2023, 04:47:36 PM
The PLO did not start the Second Intifada. Yet another lie.
And did anything significant happen between these dates? Something that Arafat specifically warned Barak would kill any chance of a deal? Something he urged Barak not to let happen? Something done by someone who wanted to kill the deal?
Think about it for a bit and get back to me.
Dishonest as always.
The rioting have been going out for weeks and weeks and Arafat did nothing to stop it. Because he wanted it to escalate.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 12, 2023, 04:41:06 PM
I assume you agree another good start would be to end the occupation, lift the blockades, give control of water/supplies/medicine/electricity to the Palestinians, too. Not as an indictment of Israel, but rather to your point of land agreement and a good start.
Why do you think the two state proposals up to this point are fair for either Israel or Palestine? Israel has also rejected proposals and overstepped on others, so clearly they don't think the proposals or even agreements are fair. Who "controls" the holy sites equally important to both?
I realize you want a free Israel, only Israel, but that is also flawed and charged. I will refrain from saying free before Palestine, as I hear you and want to continue a dialog that doesn't continue to spiral back to weaponizing words. So I will say, I want a self-governing Palestine with access to clean water, supplies, medicine, electricity, free from internal terrorists and external control, free from bombings both internal and external, free to peacefully exist alongside Israel.
Israel did this in 2005. They used to occupy the Gaza Strip. They completely pulled out even digging up a graves of dead Jews and took them back to Israel. It was 100% Palestinian with no Israeli involvement.
So in 2005, the Palestinians had a state called Gaza. What did they do with it? They turned it into an open air prison and used it to launch terror attacks against Israel culminating with October 7.
The constant attacks and rocket barrages against Israel is why they put up a blockade to protect themselves from the terrorist attacks.
So they tried that once, and it turned into a disaster. Why would they do that again unless there's major changes, and to the government in charge of Gaza, and a committment to peace.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 05:15:50 PM
The rioting have been going out for weeks and weeks and Arafat did nothing to stop it. Because he wanted it to escalate.
I wonder why you didn't answer the question. Smart guy like you surely has the capacity of figuring out the answer. Might it violate your worldview?
A little long, but a good explanation of what a war crime is, and why we haven't seen any yet in Gaza.
https://x.com/cptallenhistory/status/1723037202458857836?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
Hi, I'm a lawyer. Do want to know what is really meant by a "#proportionate response" under international law? Then read on - and feel free to ask questions!
Under International Humanitarian Law, #proportionality requires that any degree of damage (up to and including death) to #civilians not be "excessive" in relation to the "military advantage anticipated from a strike against a military target."
We are going to break that down, so everyone understands what exactly that means.
However, first, you should be aware that it is a misnomer that anytime #Palestinian civilians die after an #Israeli strike, it is automatically evidence of an Israeli war crime. This is completely false - the law does not work that way.
Simply, and unfortunately, the international rules of law recognize that civilians are often killed during war; and, most of the time, those deaths are actually not indicative of a war crime.
Instead, the legal test for "proportionality" requires that each individual strike be looked at with a particular balancing analysis.
First, here is a hard and fast rule: the strike must be intended to target a military objective; it is, therefore, an unlawful war crime to strike with the intent of targeting civilians without any military objective whatsoever.
Now, let's get a little technical while still keeping it simple.
Under the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of 1977 at both Article 51(5)(b) and Article 52(2), we know that when #Hamas uses its own population (or Israeli #hostages) as #humanshields - either by using them to shield themselves or to shield their weapons depots - Hamas has, under international law, turned civilians targets into military targets.
That means that when Hamas places weapons caches in and under schools, hospitals, mosques, etc., Hamas has made each of those places legitimate military targets.
So, it has been well-known for many years that Hamas purposefully placed its headquarters underground beneath the al-Shifa Hospital. In doing so, international law holds that the hospital is no longer just a civilian target, it is a legitimate military target.
That does not necessarily give the IDF carte blanche to attack hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.; however, it does mean that an IDF attack on a civilian target that has been made into a military target by Hamas' use of human shields is not per se illegal under international law.
Instead, such a strike (as is the case with any strike conducted by a military like the IDF), must be analyzed through a balancing test.
One part of this balancing test performed by Israel before each strike is to determine whether the human shields in question are being used voluntarily or involuntarily.
If the human shields are being used voluntarily - meaning the human shields are there protecting Hamas and its weapons of their own volition - then the target remains a completely legitimate military target.
If the human shields are being used involuntarily - meaning Hamas is forcing people to act as human shields to protect themselves and/or their weapons - then the IDF must go back to the balancing test to determine whether the anticipated military advantage of a successful strike would outweigh the reasonably anticipated loss of civilian life.
Importantly, the IDF rules state that if it cannot determine whether a human shield is being used voluntarily or involuntarily, it must presume the civilian is being used against his or her own will and treat the civilians as an involuntary participant.
Assuming that there is a military target & that there may be human shields that are there involuntarily, the next step in the proportionality analysis for each individual strike (remember, proportionality is determined on a strike-by-strike basis, and not as the accumulation of strikes over time) is to try to determine the likely amount of damage to civilian persons and/or property as a result of the strike.
In other words, under international law, Israel must be able to give a sort of "value" to the anticipated impact on civilians (including potential civilian deaths). Simply, a smaller number of anticipated civilian casualties may make the strike proportionate if there is a significant military advantage to be gained by conducting the strike.
However, if Israel determines that the anticipated impact of a strike may cause many civilian casualties, it must make the difficult determination of whether the anticipated military advantage is so significant that it warrants carrying out the strike anyway.
So, if Hamas has a weapons depot underneath a house with two civilians inside, and that house has been used to fire 500 rockets at Israeli civilians, and it is reasonably expected that there are hundreds more rockets under that house, Israel can almost certainly carry out the strike within the confines of international law.
If that same house, however, had 10 families living inside, including many children, it could - and likely would - tip the scales of the proportionality balancing test toward Israel not being permitted to carry out the strike, even though the house has been used to attack Israeli civilians and can be expected to continue to be used to carry out attacks against Israeli civilians.
Now, that balancing test can always change. If that same house is being used to fire long-range, precision-guided missiles at Israel's major population centers in places like #TelAviv (effectively putting millions of Israeli civilians in danger), the balancing test may tip back in favor of Israel being legally permitted to carry out the strike.
This all suggests the third and final step in the proportionality balancing test: the #IDF must determine and place a "value" on the anticipated military advantage that would be gained if it were to carry out a particular strike.
An attack on Hamas leadership and/or its weapons manufacturers would be considered a high value target. An attack on a single Hamas member who has no special skill, would be a much lower value military target.
Similarly, an attack on a small cache of mortars would have less military value that an attack on a large cache of advanced rockets that can reach large Israeli civilian population centers.
Once the @IDF determines the anticipated "value" of the likely effect on civilian persons and property and the anticipated "value" of the likely military advantage to be gained if the strike is carried out, the balancing test can be performed, and a certain amount of judgment must go into the determination of whether that strike would or would not be "proportionate."
Importantly, this decision is so vital that the IDF does not simply permit a single solder on the ground with his or her hand on the proverbial (or actual) "trigger" to make that determination.
In fact, the decision of whether a strike is proportionate is not even left up to IDF officers. It's not even left up to IDF Generals.
Instead, before any IDF strike can take place, IDF Guidelines provide that the proportionality balancing test must be presented to and analyzed by IDF military lawyers who then determine whether the strike is legally permissible as "proportionate" under international law and the rules of war.
And these IDF military lawyers are not mere patsies or people who simply "rubber stamp" what the IDF requests.
In fact, the IDF's military lawyers work entirely independently of the IDF. They are outside of the chain of command and do not answer to anyone in the IDF, including a General (for example).
Plus, every IDF military lawyer knows he or she may very well be held to account if he or she makes a wrong decision based on the evidence available at the time.
Furthermore, sometimes the decisions to be made while balancing the likely military advantage against the likely civilian casualties can be so difficult that the legality of the strike is first brought to the Israeli Supreme Court for instant review.
Another important concept: the comparison of civilian body counts of #Israelis versus #Palestinians (to the extent those numbers can be trusted since they come directly from Hamas-only) is not relevant to a proportionality analysis. Each strike must be viewed individually to determine proportionality. It is not a test of the cumulative nature of the strikes.
Also, by simply comparing body counts, it does not factor in how many people killed were actually #HamasTerrorists, how many were Hamas collaborators there voluntarily, and it does not consider what military advantage was gained by Israel carrying out any individual strike.
As Israel is now in the process of seeking to secure the military advantage of preventing Hamas from having the capacity to carry out repeated attacks of the kind and nature seen on October 7th, Israel is permitted to act proportionately insofar as necessary to achieve that military objective (the elimination of Hamas and/or its ability to make war).
One more important fact people do not know, but that they should know: according to UN statistics of global conflict, the average civilian to combatant killed ratio is a rather appalling nine civilians killed for every one combatant killed.
That's why civilian body counts in and of themselves are never indicative of a war crime. Each individual strike has to be analyzed, and unfortunately civilians always suffer disproportionately in wars.
In fact, while Israel is routinely criticized for any of its strikes that kill civilians, you may be surprised to know that Israel's civilian to combatant ratio is routinely much lower than the nine to one average.
In the very last operation carried out by the IDF prior to October 7 (in Jenin), 0.6 civilians were killed for every one combatant killed.
In that conflict, not only were the IDF's ratio numbers nowhere near the nine to one international average, but the IDF actually managed to kill more combatants than civilians - something that is extremely rare.
In truth, Israel is targeted by accusations of war crimes almost immediately by the media, by politicians, and by the UN General Assembly despite the fact that those accusations are near 100% of the time based neither in fact nor in law.
Since a proportionality balancing test must be used to determine whether a single specific Israeli strike falls within the confines of international law, someone providing an analysis must have all of the facts Israel considered before carrying out that strike as to the anticipated impact on civilians and the anticipated military advantage. Obviously, anyone who is making a snap judgment critical of Israel could not possibly have that information.
Understand then, that when you see talking heads accusing Israel of "war crimes" immediately after and/or during Israeli strikes, that is not an actual legal analysis under international law of what constitutes a war crime.
Much more likely, what you are witnessing is part of Hamas' ongoing psychological and propaganda warfare campaign of demonizing and delegitimizing the State of Israel in the eyes of public opinion.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 04:19:27 PM
The term free Palestine is a highly charged phrase, just like from the river to the sea.
I do agree with this, Douchey, especially with the way many are throwing around those phrases today. Dismissive, disingenuous and probably bigoted.
In that way, it's like when an American is presented with the phrase, "Black lives matter," and immediately responds, "All lives matter!"
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2023, 06:19:12 PM
I do agree with this, Douchey, especially with the way many are throwing around those phrases today. Dismissive, disingenuous and probably bigoted.
In that way, it's like when an American is presented with the phrase, "Black lives matter," and immediately responds, "All lives matter!"
What do you think of the Reproductive Justice/Free Palestine signs or Gays for Gaza? This seriously confuses me.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 12, 2023, 06:30:06 PM
What do you think of the Reproductive Justice/Free Palestine signs or Gays for Gaza? This seriously confuses me.
That group has about as much sway as Scoopers do.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 12, 2023, 05:14:46 PM
I showed what Bill Clinton's opinion was. He blamed Arafat for walking away because he was never serious because they don't want a two-state solution.
——-
And if you're talking about, Robert Malley, the only person who blamed the west, you do know that he was fired in May, sorry I need to put on forced leave, and is under investigation for being an Iranian spy.
So do you have any other sources that say it was the America/Israel's fault other than an Iranian spy?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/06/rob-malley-iran-security-clearance-investigation/
Clinton is not going to say he screwed up. He is going to blame someone, and it isn't going to be Israel.
This does a good job of summarizing why everything failed. News flash, it wasn't Arafat's fault, indeed he warned them the meeting was premature as there were too many issues that needed to be resolved before hand. Clinton rushed the meeting, everything he presented as a mediator had first been run through Barak. It was never a true negotiation.
https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/07/13/lost-in-woods-camp-david-retrospective-pub-82287 (https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/07/13/lost-in-woods-camp-david-retrospective-pub-82287)
In the end, blame to spread around everyone involved.
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2023, 07:05:34 PM
That group has about as much sway as Scoopers do.
Anything is possible with a letter-writing campaign.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 12, 2023, 07:45:48 PM
Anything is possible with a letter-writing campaign.
I don't seem to remember Douchey or the dentists being so upset about anti-Semitic signs (or torches) being carried as the very fine neo-Nazis in Charlottesville chanted, "Jews will not replace us." (Muggs gets a pass because he wasn't a Scooper yet.)
I guess college kids and Gays for Gaza elicit much more terror than neo-Nazis, Proud Boys and other white supremacists do.
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2023, 08:10:11 PM
I don't seem to remember Douchey or the dentists being so upset about anti-Semitic signs (or torches) being carried as the very fine neo-Nazis in Charlottesville chanted, "Jews will not replace us." (Muggs gets a pass because he wasn't a Scooper yet.)
I guess college kids and Gays for Gaza elicit much more terror than neo-Nazis, Proud Boys and other white supremacists do.
So many of those protesting and holding signs have no idea what they mean. They just like to protest.
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2023, 08:10:11 PM
I don't seem to remember Douchey or the dentists being so upset about anti-Semitic signs (or torches) being carried as the very fine neo-Nazis in Charlottesville chanted, "Jews will not replace us." (Muggs gets a pass because he wasn't a Scooper yet.)
I guess college kids and Gays for Gaza elicit much more terror than neo-Nazis, Proud Boys and other white supremacists do.
Neo-Nazis and Proud Boys are just pawns
Nah man, ewe haven't perfected the use of pawns yet. Stick ta watt ya no, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 12, 2023, 08:17:28 PM
Nah man, ewe haven't perfected the use of pawns yet. Stick ta watt ya no, hey?
Telling Jewish people how they should act?
Quote from: forgetful on November 12, 2023, 07:32:40 PM
Clinton is not going to say he screwed up. He is going to blame someone, and it isn't going to be Israel.
This does a good job of summarizing why everything failed. News flash, it wasn't Arafat's fault, indeed he warned them the meeting was premature as there were too many issues that needed to be resolved before hand. Clinton rushed the meeting, everything he presented as a mediator had first been run through Barak. It was never a true negotiation.
https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/07/13/lost-in-woods-camp-david-retrospective-pub-82287 (https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/07/13/lost-in-woods-camp-david-retrospective-pub-82287)
In the end, blame to spread around everyone involved.
Again, this quotes the Iranian spy Malley that Arafat did nothing wrong. You got anyone else?
Or are you going with the characterization of an Iranian spy over Clinton and Barack?
From the Associated Press about that Gaxs health ministry death toll numbers
About that Gaza Health ministry test death toll...
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations.
The Health Ministry doesn't report how Palestinians were killed, whether from Israeli airstrikes and artillery barrages or other means, like errant Palestinian rocket fire. It describes all casualties as victims of "Israeli aggression."
——
Hundreds of rockets a day are fired from Gaza into Israel. Estimates are about 20% of them fail in someway in land in Gaza. So, hundreds of Hamas rockets have landed in Gaza over the last month and killed civilians. No estimate is given for this.
No estimate is given for the number of Hamas fighters killed either.
Additionally a significant number of Hamas fighters are male between 14 to 17 (exact number not known). How many of these "children" killed in this age range were carrying a gun?
Yes thousands have been killed, but the current number is probably less than 11,000. But how many that have been killed are civilians due to the IDF? No one knows.
This was this largest such rally in at at least a generation. And it was not even the largest rally of the weekend, the pro-Hamas/Palestinian rally this weekend in London was larger (300K).
France is the third largest country with a Jewish population after Israel and the US (where about 75% of the world's Jewish population lives)
More than 180,000 demonstrators march in France against antisemitism
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/13/europe/france-march-antisemitism-israel-hamas-war-intl-hnk/index.html
In Paris, an estimated 105,000 demonstrators joined the march, making it the largest mobilization against antisemitism since the protest against the desecration of the Jewish cemetery in Carpentras in 1990, according to CNN affiliate BFM TV.
Protesters were joined in the French capital by political figures including Prime Minister Elisabeth Borne and former presidents Francois Hollande and Nicolas Sarkozy. Together they held a banner with the words, "For the Republic, against antisemitism."
Demonstrators came out in smaller numbers in cities including Nice, Lyon and Marseille, according to BFM TV. More than 182,000 people took part in marches across the country, BFM TV reported, citing the interior ministry.
Tensions have been rising in France, and particularly in the capital, over the Israel-Hamas war, resulting in a surge in antisemitic incidents, according to French President Emmanual Macron.
In a letter published in French newspaper Le Parisien on Saturday, Macron condemned "the unbearable resurgence of unbridled antisemitism."
He said more than 1,000 antisemitic acts were committed in France in one month alone – three times more than over the course of the entire previous year.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 13, 2023, 02:00:44 AM
Again, this quotes the Iranian spy Malley that Arafat did nothing wrong. You got anyone else?
Or are you going with the characterization of an Iranian spy over Clinton and Barack?
The whole article I linked was written by one of the Chief negotiators for both the Oslo and Camp David accords.
If you wonder why people gave you the moniker, these are some of the reasons why.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 11, 2023, 09:15:01 AM
I'm very happy the hate and violent speech has been silenced, but again, I'm on the fence about how this has been done.
So .. add Columbia to Brandeis that did this action. And since Harvard and Penn also signed a letter with Columbia, I expect they will do the same.
------
https://www.dailywire.com/news/ivy-league-school-shuts-down-anti-semitic-palestinian-student-groups
Columbia University announced on Friday that it was banning two anti-Semitic student groups on campus for the remainder of the fall term after they repeatedly violated school rules.
The private New York City school suspended Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) and Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) as official student groups in light of their recent actions on campus.
"This decision was made after the two groups repeatedly violated University policies related to holding campus events, culminating in an unauthorized event Thursday afternoon that proceeded despite warnings and included threatening rhetoric and intimidation," said Gerald Rosberg, Senior Executive Vice President of the University and Chair, Special Committee on Campus Safety.
"Suspension means the two groups will not be eligible to hold events on campus or receive University funding," he added. "Lifting the suspension will be contingent on the two groups demonstrating a commitment to compliance with University policies and engaging in consultations at a group leadership level with University officials."
Jewish Voice for Peace is an anti-Semitic organization that has held numerous anti-Israel rallies after Hamas murdered 1,400 Israelis in an unprecedented terrorist attack last month.
"Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) is a radical anti-Israel and anti-Zionist activist group that advocates for the boycott of Israel and eradication of Zionism," according to the ADL, which adds that they have "expressed support for violence and, occasionally, classic antisemitic tropes."
Students for Justice in Palestine has "explicitly endorsed the actions of Hamas and their armed attacks on Israeli civilians and voiced an increasingly radical call for confronting and 'dismantling' Zionism on U.S. college campuses," the ADL noted.
Actually this is different from Brandeis. Columbia didn't target the content of the speech, they targeted the manner of the speech which is allowed. If it's true that these orgs have been throwing unauthorized events (and the reason that they're unauthorized isn't because of the content of the speech) then Columbia is allowed to punish the orgs for violating their rules.
This is a much better response than what Brandeis did. Viewpoint nuetrailty is key
Quote from: forgetful on November 13, 2023, 09:10:12 AM
The whole article I linked was written by one of the Chief negotiators for both the Oslo and Camp David accords.
If you wonder why people gave you the moniker, these are some of the reasons why.
The chief negotiators were Bill Clinton and Ehud Barack. They said Arafat was not serious.
And the fact that you picked an article that quoted an Irainan spy for support tells you all you need to know.
Try this
https://www.fpri.org/article/2004/11/arafat-man-wanted-much/
And for Pakuni, who googled that Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was the reason for the Second Intifada. (Arafat provoked by insulting the Jewish religion)
Also from the article:
All sides blundered at Camp David. Yet, Arafat's refusal to make a counteroffer,
his destructive fable that the Jewish temples had never been in Jerusalem, and his sanctification of the conflict after the summit ("the al-Aksa Intifada") shook confidence that he really wanted a deal. But he found little international support for a unilateral declaration of independence.
Arafat was spared the impending stalemate, courtesy of General Sharon, his old foe whose overreaching had rescued him in Beirut eighteen years earlier. On September 28, Sharon reasserted Israeli claims to the Temple Mount in a highly publicized, well-guarded walk on the Temple Mount. To Arafat, this must have seemed a repetition of Netanyahu's 1996 gaffe. He encouraged deadly demonstrations throughout the Palestinian Authority and by Israeli Arabs in Israel itself.
Why did Arafat resist all international efforts to restrain what quickly became a guerrilla war punctuated by terrorism, unlike the first intifada? Why did he not seize either the Clinton parameters of late December — well beyond Barak's original offer — or conclude a deal with Barak at Taba? Why did he insist on both Jerusalem and the Right of Return, guaranteeing the dissolution of Israeli public support for doing any deal with him?
Arafat simply thought he could win. On the surface, he had good reasons. Even if Barak lost the January 2001 Israeli elections to Sharon, it would be easy to isolate an Israel led by so highly unpopular a figure. George W. Bush, rejected by ninety per cent of the Jewish voters and son of a President who had quarreled with Israel, would be sympathetic. Israel might be forced into a "two-state solution" whereby Arafat got one state now and, after the return of the refugees, another larger state later.. These proved fatal miscalculations.
——-
The leaders of the Palestinians are not interested in a two-state solution. They have never been.
Occasionally the mouth the words for Western Progressives but, in the end, Palestinian Leaders only talk about a one-date solution ... "from the River to the Sea..."
.
When they are ready for two-states, the region will have peace with Israel.
Hey Heisy,
Do you know anything about an organization called CAMERA? Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting and Analysis? They have a lot of interesting feedback on media in general and do quite a few webinars.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 13, 2023, 11:21:53 AM
Hey Heisy,
Do you know anything about an organization called CAMERA? Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting and Analysis? They have a lot of interesting feedback on media in general and do quite a few webinars.
If not, he'll make something up. And if so, he'll make something up as well.
About the Cease fire and Humanitarian Aid ... Who gets it?
November 13, 2023
Hamas Operatives Beat Civilians Off Humanitarian Aid Trucks and Steal their Food
https://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye-on-palestine/hamas/hamas-operatives-beat-civilians-off-humanitarian-aid-trucks-and-steal-their-food/2023/11/13/
Kan 11 News on Sunday night ran this video showing Hamas operatives beating Gaza residents who tried to receive food packages from the humanitarian aid trucks that entered the Strip. In the video, Hamas members are seen brutally beating the residents, and according to a source who spoke with Kan 11, the Hamasniks then proceeded to steal the contents of the trucks and transfer them to the terrorist organization's lairs.
November 12, 2023
WATCH: Hamas blocks IDF fuel delivery to Gaza's Shifa Hospital
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-772918
Israeli security forces delivered 300 liters of diesel fuel to Shifa Hospital in Gaza early Sunday morning and later received intelligence indicating that Hamas had intercepted the delivery, according to a Sunday night IDF statement.
The IDF released three separate recordings of the event. The first was an audio recording of an exchange between a representative of the Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA), which implements civilian policy regarding the Israeli government's activity in the Gaza Strip, and an official from Shifa Hospital.
The two discussed the delivery logistics, explaining where to go and how it would be conducted.
"After we deliver the fuel," the CLA representative said, "our forces will move back so that they won't be next to the junction. You will send an ambulance to take the fuel."
November 12, 2023
Hamas envisioned deeper attacks, aiming to provoke an Israeli war
Evidence gleaned since Oct. 7 shows Hamas militants prepared for a 'second phase' of assaults amid hopes of inspiring violence in the West Bank and beyond
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/12/hamas-planning-terror-gaza-israel/
Hamas meticulously planned and prepared for a massacre of Israeli civilians on a scale that was highly likely to provoke Israel's government into sending troops into Gaza, analysts said. Indeed, Hamas leaders have publicly expressed a willingness to accept heavy losses — potentially including the deaths of many Gazan civilians living under Hamas rule.
"Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it," Ghazi Hamad, a member of the Hamas politburo, told Beirut's LCBI television in an interview aired on Oct. 24. "We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs."
Hamas was willing to accept such sacrifices as the price for kick-starting a new wave of violent Palestinian resistance in the region and scuttling efforts at normalizing relations between Israel and Arab states, according to current and former intelligence officials and counterterrorism experts.
"They were very clear-eyed as to what would happen to Gaza on the day after," said a senior Israeli military official with access to sensitive intelligence, including interrogations with Hamas fighters and intercepted communications. "They wanted to buy their place in history — a place in the history of jihad — at the expense of the lives of many people in Gaza."
It's getting to the point where "human shields" is the new "saddam has WMDs"
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 13, 2023, 06:55:56 PM
It's getting to the point where "human shields" is the new "saddam has WMDs"
Maybe it's getting to the point where we should annex the entire Middle East.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 13, 2023, 06:55:56 PM
It's getting to the point where "human shields" is the new "saddam has WMDs"
So you're saying Hamas isn't using innocent Palestinians as protection? Source?
It's nothing new for them:
Hamas, an Islamist militant group and the de facto governing authority of the Gaza Strip, has been
using human shields in conflicts with Israel since 2007. According to the Statute of the International
Criminal Court (ICC), the war crime of using human shields encompasses "utilizing the presence of
a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune from
military operations." Hamas has launched rockets, positioned military-related infrastructure-hubs
and routes, and engaged the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) from, or in proximity to, residential and
commercial areas.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf (https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 13, 2023, 06:59:09 PM
Maybe it's getting to the point where we should annex the entire Middle East.
Sure, why not. Things went so well in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 13, 2023, 06:55:56 PM
It's getting to the point where "human shields" is the new "saddam has WMDs"
Except Hamas actually does use its own people - including children - as human shields. They are proud to make martyrs out of their human shields.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 13, 2023, 08:45:16 PM
Sure, why not. Things went so well in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That wasn't annexation Pakuni as you know full well.
Quote from: forgetful on November 12, 2023, 08:15:07 PM
So many of those protesting and holding signs have no idea what they mean. They just like to protest.
Right wing groups who promote antisemitism and violence against Jews are dangerous.
Left wing groups who do the same are just kidding.
Seems fair.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 13, 2023, 09:39:43 PM
Right wing groups who promote antisemitism and violence against Jews are dangerous.
Left wing groups who do the same are just kidding.
Seems fair.
I never said either.
I was just pointing out that a lot of kids on campus have no idea what is going on in any issues. They are just out to protest. They don't know the different connotations to "From the River to the Sea" or "Free Palestine."
Hate speech is hate speech and is wrong no matter what side.
But on college campuses, there should be opportunities to teach kids why what they are saying is wrong.
I'd say the same things about college kids saying "All Lives Matter."
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 13, 2023, 09:39:43 PM
Right wing groups who promote antisemitism and violence against Jews are dangerous.
Left wing groups who do the same are just kidding.
Seems fair.
Just pawns.
Quote from: forgetful on November 13, 2023, 10:10:06 PM
I never said either.
I was just pointing out that a lot of kids on campus have no idea what is going on in any issues. They are just out to protest. They don't know the different connotations to "From the River to the Sea" or "Free Palestine."
Hate speech is hate speech and is wrong no matter what side.
But on college campuses, there should be opportunities to teach kids why what they are saying is wrong.
I'd say the same things about college kids saying "All Lives Matter."
All lives matter is a truism and doesn't mean black lives don't matter - except to those who choose to hear it that way. From the river to the sea doesn't leave any wiggle room - it calls for the elimination of the Jewish state.
That you would make such an analogy/equivalency is very troubling.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 13, 2023, 10:36:47 PM
All lives matter is a truism and doesn't mean black lives don't matter - except to those who choose to hear it that way.
Oh, come on.
All lives matter is a phrase spoken only to diminish the meaning of black lives matter. It arose only in contradiction to black lives matter, spoken almost entirely by fragile white people who are too dumb to get it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 13, 2023, 10:36:47 PM
All lives matter is a truism and doesn't mean black lives don't matter - except to those who choose to hear it that way. From the river to the sea doesn't leave any wiggle room - it calls for the elimination of the Jewish state.
That you would make such an analogy/equivalency is very troubling.
The fact you don't realize that both are chances to learn, is very troubling. The fact that you don't realize how much harm both phrases cause to marginalized groups that have been subject to hate most of modern history is also very troubling.
"From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free" has multiple meanings to different people. For many/most (especially in the west) it means that Palestinians will have equal rights. To others, it means the elimination of the Jewish State. Since Hamas has adopted the phrase to explicitly imply the latter it is horrific hate speech, and should never be used.
Many of those still using it, think it only means the former. They should be taught what they are saying means to others, and the harm they are causing when they use the phrase.
"All Lives Matter" has multiple meanings. To some, it means that all lives have equal value. To most others, it was spawned out of hatred for the phrase "Black Lives Matter" and to them, it means negating the value of black lives. Since it has been adopted by white supremacists and other hate groups, it should never be used.
Some/Many of those still using it, think it only means the former. They should be taught what they are saying means to others, and the harm they are causing when they use the phrase.
Both should not be used, and if we teach young people what they are saying means to those it harms, maybe we can end a culture of hate.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 13, 2023, 10:45:50 PM
Oh, come on.
All lives matter is a phrase spoken only to diminish the meaning of black lives matter. It arose only in contradiction to black lives matter, spoken almost entirely by fragile white people who are too dumb to get it.
blm made it's bed and they are a scam! the 'organization' took advantage of a crisis(never let one go to waste) and diminished the real meaning of the term. i fully believe and concur that black lives matter just as white, yellow, brown lives matter. but blm tried to take advantage of a "movement" and gave many a false sense of security. and, if you disagree with their modus, you are a racist...wait, what??
blm showed it's true colors-MARXISM-as opposed to truly caring about BLACK LIVES behind the force field of...you guessed it-RACISM
all you had to do was wear the shirt, the flag, the pin, donate money and you got a pass from the "R" police
follow the money
african american lives do matter as do all others!!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 13, 2023, 10:36:47 PM
All lives matter is a truism and doesn't mean black lives don't matter - except to those who choose to hear it that way. From the river to the sea doesn't leave any wiggle room - it calls for the elimination of the Jewish state.
That you would make such an analogy/equivalency is very troubling.
dripping with irony.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 14, 2023, 06:00:15 AM
blm made it's bed and they are a scam! the 'organization' took advantage of a crisis(never let one go to waste) and diminished the real meaning of the term. i fully believe and concur that black lives matter just as white, yellow, brown lives matter. but blm tried to take advantage of a "movement" and gave many a false sense of security. and, if you disagree with their modus, you are a racist...wait, what??
blm showed it's true colors-MARXISM-as opposed to truly caring about BLACK LIVES behind the force field of...you guessed it-RACISM
all you had to do was wear the shirt, the flag, the pin, donate money and you got a pass from the "R" police
follow the money
african american lives do matter as do all others!!
9 out of 10
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 06:01:47 AM
dripping with irony.
Dripping with stupidity.
Are there bigots who hide behind "Black lives matter"? Sure.
How about "Blue lives matter"? Yep.
"All lives matter"? That too.
But they also fall under "We hold these truths to be self evident". And one can support all three concepts without being the least bit bigoted.
The same cannot be said about "From the river to the sea".
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 14, 2023, 06:40:28 AM
Dripping with stupidity.
Are there bigots who hide behind "Black lives matter"? Sure.
How about "Blue lives matter"? Yep.
"All lives matter"? That too.
But they also fall under "We hold these truths to be self evident". And one can support all three concepts without being the least bit bigoted.
The same cannot be said about "From the river to the sea".
You're the arbiter of language, no one else.
Got it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 14, 2023, 06:40:28 AM
Dripping with stupidity.
Are there bigots who hide behind "Black lives matter"? Sure.
How about "Blue lives matter"? Yep.
"All lives matter"? That too.
But they also fall under "We hold these truths to be self evident". And one can support all three concepts without being the least bit bigoted.
The same cannot be said about "From the river to the sea".
Can you find any examples of "all lives matter " being used in its current context except in opposition to "black lives matter?"
Quote from: MU82 on November 13, 2023, 09:06:13 PM
Except Hamas actually does use its own people - including children - as human shields. They are proud to make martyrs out of their human shields.
Definitely all of the infrastructure that the IDF has bombed - schools, hospitals, etc - is a front for the Hamas military
Quote from: Pakuni on November 14, 2023, 06:58:48 AM
Can you find any examples of "all lives matter " being used in its current context except in opposition to "black lives matter?"
Pro life people use it all the time.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 14, 2023, 07:07:58 AM
Pro life people use it all the time.
Then I'm sure you can find some pre-2014 examples.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 14, 2023, 07:07:58 AM
Pro life people use it all the time.
Not before it was used in response to BLM.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 06:48:36 AM
You're the arbiter of language, no one else.
Got it.
I can read, I can comprehend. I'm certainly not the only one, but at times they're in short supply around here.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 14, 2023, 07:22:32 AM
I can read, I can comprehend. I'm certainly not the only one, but at times they're in short supply around here.
Now now, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 14, 2023, 07:07:09 AM
Definitely all of the infrastructure that the IDF has bombed - schools, hospitals, etc - is a front for the Hamas military
Thats a wholly different idea than what you espoused before.
WMDs did not exist. Hamas using human shields is very much something that exists. Other damage occurring to civilian infrastructure that may or may not have Hamas connections doesn't change that.
Glad that Hamas propaganda hitting right for you!
Quote from: JWags85 on November 14, 2023, 08:13:55 AM
Thats a wholly different idea than what you espoused before.
WMDs did not exist. Hamas using human shields is very much something that exists. Other damage occurring to civilian infrastructure that may or may not have Hamas connections doesn't change that.
Glad that Hamas propaganda hitting right for you!
I would argue that Israel needs to provide evidence that these schools/hospitals are indeed used as major military sites. Otherwise what they are doing is a war crime. The actions need to be investigated by independent individuals.
Today, video from one of the hospitals that Israel claims was a command and control center for Hamas was released by CNN (with permission from Israeli military). Their evidence is that, days after all patients/staff left, they found 4-5 rusted guns, 1 explosive device, and a motor bike in a basement room. CNN was only allowed access hours after Israeli military investigated the room. The Israeli commander says this is proof that this was a command and control center.
Even if that existed before patients/staff left, 4-5 rusted guns is not evidence of a command and control center. The fact that is the best evidence they've released yet is at least troubling.
Other examples of targeting apartment building, because a member of Hamas lived there with his family is also a war crime (assassination). Bombing a residential complex because one of its residents is part of Hamas is not a valid military target according to international law.
They need to provide some proof of actual military installations in these sites.
There is still a lot of time for them to provide evidence, but the fact they have provided next to nothing so far should be troubling to everyone.
Yeah, well they won't. We should just take them at their word because Israel is always honest.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 14, 2023, 07:07:09 AM
Definitely all of the infrastructure that the IDF has bombed - schools, hospitals, etc - is a front for the Hamas military
You are too intelligent to shift the goalposts like that, jes.
You also know that Hamas is, indeed, using human shields. All of those terrorist organizations not only do it, but do it proudly. They have no peers when it comes to the martyr-making business.
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2023, 08:31:57 AM
You are too intelligent to shift the goalposts like that, jes.
You also know that Hamas is, indeed, using human shields. All of those terrorist organizations not only do it, but do it proudly. They have no peers when it comes to the martyr-making business.
The suggestion here is that every civilian killed in Gaza was a human shield?
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2023, 08:31:57 AM
You are too intelligent to shift the goalposts like that, jes.
You also know that Hamas is, indeed, using human shields. All of those terrorist organizations not only do it, but do it proudly. They have no peers when it comes to the martyr-making business.
Both this can be true, and it also true that they need to provide evidence that the hospitals and schools were actual military targets.
The only video evidence that I'm aware of released today, is severely lacking in the evidence department.
For everyone involved, a thorough investigation should be done, otherwise a cycle of hate/violence will most definitely continue.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 08:38:07 AM
The suggestion here is that every civilian killed in Gaza was a human shield?
Neither said nor suggested by me. I can't account for what others might have said (or how you might have interpreted it).
Quote from: forgetful on November 14, 2023, 08:39:19 AM
Both this can be true, and it also true that they need to provide evidence that the hospitals and schools were actual military targets.
The only video evidence that I'm aware of released today, is severely lacking in the evidence department.
For everyone involved, a thorough investigation should be done, otherwise a cycle of hate/violence will most definitely continue.
That is fair.
A problem is who conducts a thorough investigation like that in the middle of a war zone?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 14, 2023, 06:58:48 AM
Can you find any examples of "all lives matter " being used in its current context except in opposition to "black lives matter?"
That's not the issue and most of you are missing the point. Can you find examples, before the BLM movement used the slogan, where people stated that Black Lives didn't matter? Or was it just obvious since Michael Brown in Feguson? The immediate inference in the slogan Black Lives Matter was that in particular cops and white people are racists as a whole. That's what it means. It doesn't matter that the narrative from Ferguson was a conplete lie.
As for the BLM movement which has raked in an insane amount of money? They have severe problems which you can argue about. You can discuss whether they've done actual positive things in tbe black community, or made things worse, or are a bunch of con-artists, etc, etc, etc. The Sacramento Kings announcer of 25 years lost his job because he stated "All Lives Matter" in conjunction with the slogan Black Lives Matter. Did this prove anything? That he's a racist? Was it really necessary to fire the guy?
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2023, 08:41:52 AM
Neither said nor suggested by me. I can't account for what others might have said (or how you might have interpreted it).
I know. I just wanted someone to say it so we can all agree that it shouldn't be used as a blanket defense for blowing up civilian infrastructure and murdering the injured, as well as doctors and nurses.
We have zero right to tell Israel how to defend themselves or put pressure on them to have a cease-fire. Let them do what they have to do. And frankly we also shouldn't be the ones deciding whatever happens down the road in Gaza. I implore the State of Israel to annihilate every single Hanas terrorist scumbag and not allow this garbage to happen again or listen to the media pressure.. Now, as you know I would go much further, but this idea of a cease-fire is insanely idiotic and inexcusable.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:42:44 AM
That's not the issue and most of you are missing the point. Can you find examples, before the BLM movement used the slogan, where people stated that Black Lives didn't matter? Or was it just obvious since Michael Brown in Feguson? The immediate inference in the slogan Black Lives Matter was that in particular cops and white people are racists as a whole. That's what it means. It doesn't matter that the narrative from Ferguson was a conplete lie.
As for the BLM movement which has raked in an insane amount of money? They have severe problems which you can argue about. You can discuss whether they've done actual positive things in tbe black community, or made things worse, or are a bunch of con-artists, etc, etc, etc. The Sacramento Kings announcer of 25 years lost his job because he stated "All Lives Matter" in conjunction with the slogan Black Lives Matter. Did this prove anything? That he's a racist? Was it really necessary to fire the guy?
Donny, you're out of your element.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 08:47:40 AM
I know. I just wanted someone to say it so we can all agree that it shouldn't be used as a blanket defense for blowing up civilian infrastructure and murdering the injured, as well as doctors and nurses.
Who was using it as a blanket defense? It's called deterrence and eliminating Hamas to darkness.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:42:44 AM
That's not the issue and most of you are missing the point. Can you find examples, before the BLM movement used the slogan, where people stated that Black Lives didn't matter?
For f---k's sake, Muggsy, read a history book (except in Florida) if you need examples of when and where in this country people treated Black lives as if they didn't matter.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 08:49:02 AM
Donny, you're out of your element.
Who's Donny? What do you think the purpose of BLM is exactly? Kendi also looks really bad btw and there's a connection ideologically.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:48:55 AM
We have zero right to tell Israel how to defend themselves or put pressure on them to have a cease-fire.
Given that we're footing a large chunk of the bill, we have every right.. If and when Israel stops taking our money and weapons, they can tell us to f--- off. Until then, they should pay heed.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:50:20 AM
Who was using it as a blanket defense? It's called deterrence and eliminating Hamas to darkness.
So you agree, that killing civilians without regard is a war crime and should be avoided. And that Israel has engaged in excessive civilian killings.
Good.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 14, 2023, 08:52:10 AM
For f---k's sake, Muggsy, read a history book (except in Florida) if you need examples of when and where in this country people treated Black lives as if they didn't matter.
That's not the point. I'm not discounting the terrible suffering of the black community historically. We're talking about the BLM movement specifically in today's world..
Quote from: Pakuni on November 14, 2023, 08:54:56 AM
Given that we're footing a large chunk of the bill, we have every right.. If and when Israel stops taking our money and weapons, they can tell us to f--- off. Until then, they should pay heed.
Precisely.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:55:25 AM
That's not the point. I'm not discounting the terrible suffering of the black community historically. We're talking about the BLM movement specifically in today's world..
Donny, you're out of your element.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:55:25 AM
That's not the point. I'm not discounting the terrible suffering of the black community historically. We're talking about the BLM movement specifically in today's world..
That's a circular argument that even Heisey wouldn't attempt to make.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:55:25 AM
That's not the point. I'm not discounting the terrible suffering of the black community historically. We're talking about the BLM movement specifically in today's world..
Sigh ... the BLM movement was created because of this country's history (and present) of treating its Black population as lesser humans. You can't separate the two because it's convenient for you.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:42:44 AM
Can you find examples, before the BLM movement used the slogan, where people stated that Black Lives didn't matter?
Holy crap. Just wow. This is something. Maybe (I know there is a lot of competition) the dumbest thing ever said on this board.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:42:44 AM
Can you find examples, before the BLM movement used the slogan, where people stated that Black Lives didn't matter?
You're kidding, right?
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:55:25 AM
That's not the point. I'm not discounting the terrible suffering of the black community historically. We're talking about the BLM movement specifically in today's world..
Actually, you specifically said "before the BLM movement."
And yes, for hundreds of years in America, including very recent years (including this year), white people have stated that Black lives didn't (and don't) matter.
I mean, less than 10 years ago, a white guy walked into a Black church outside of Charleston and shot up the congregation. Why? Because they were Black. That was a white person stating very loudly that Black lives don't matter. Three years ago, a white cop brutally murdered a Black guy in cold blood. Why? Because he was Black. That was a white person stating very loudly that Black lives don't matter. We could do this all day, starting in the 1600s, and going all the way to 2023.
C'mon, Muggs.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 14, 2023, 08:58:37 AM
Sigh ... the BLM movement was created because of this country's history (and present) of treating its Black population as lesser humans. You can't separate the two because it's convenient for you.
No, it wasn't. It started after Michael Brown was shot and killed in Ferguson, MO. And mind you it was in self defense. And also mind you our Attorney General went to the funeral even though he and Obama knew full well it was self-defense. That's how it started. The BLM Movement has absolutely nothing to do with our country's history from slavery to the present.
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2023, 09:07:21 AM
You're kidding, right?
Actually, you specifically said "before the BLM movement."
And yes, for hundreds of years in America, including very recent years (including this year), white people have stated that Black lives didn't (and don't) matter.
I mean, less than 10 years ago, a white guy walked into a Black church outside of Charleston and shot up the congregation. Why? Because they were Black. That was a white person stating very loudly that Black lives don't matter. Three years ago, a white cop brutally murdered a Black guy in cold blood. Why? Because he was Black. That was a white person stating very loudly that Black lives don't matter. We could do this all day, starting in the 1600s, and going all the way to 2023.
C'mon, Muggs.
Yes, we have racists. No one is denying that at all. It's about whether we're a racist country as a whole and how you actually define that? Has there been any progress? Etc, Etc, Etc.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 09:08:51 AM
No, it wasn't. It started after Michael Brown was shot and killed in Ferguson, MO. And mind you it was in self defense. And also mind you our Attorney General went to the funeral even though he and Obama knew full well it was self-defense. That's how it started. The BLM Movement has absolutely nothing to do with our country's history from slavery to the present.
(https://i.pinimg.com/550x/5f/57/1b/5f571b8c8c650120a1caec4207972977.jpg)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 09:12:56 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/550x/5f/57/1b/5f571b8c8c650120a1caec4207972977.jpg)
Ya, that's not an argument or retort. You refuse to make a distinction between tbe words black lives matter and the BLM movement.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 08:55:11 AM
So you agree, that killing civilians without regard is a war crime and should be avoided. And that Israel has engaged in excessive civilian killings.
Good.
But that's goalpost shifting from Jesu's original post which basically suggested human shields were just a non-existent fugazi excuse for military action like WMDs in Iraq.
-Israel should avoid excess civilian casualties and indiscriminate killings in their strikes. They have arguably not done a good job of that.
-Hamas uses human shields of varying types with regularity which makes accomplishing the former difficult, but certainly not impossible.
Both of those can be true. But people are using reasonable criticisms of the former to typify Israel as completely and indefensibly evil in all ways, thus anything they say is false. Thus human shields is a lie they've made up to allow genocide. Or the disturbing number of people saying that they majority of people killed on 10/7 were actually just IDF forces, or better yet, most of those killed at the music festival were actually killed by IDF wantonly killing everyone to eliminate the Hamas fighters there ::)
That is how people that are supposedly just for "freeing Palestine" are shifting into Hamas apologists and tacit supporters
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 09:08:51 AM
No, it wasn't. It started after Michael Brown was shot and killed in Ferguson, MO.
Nope.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 14, 2023, 09:36:04 AM
But that's goalpost shifting from Jesu's original post which basically suggested human shields were just a non-existent fugazi excuse for military action like WMDs in Iraq.
-Israel should avoid excess civilian casualties and indiscriminate killings in their strikes. They have arguably not done a good job of that.
-Hamas uses human shields of varying types with regularity which makes accomplishing the former difficult, but certainly not impossible.
Both of those can be true. But people are using reasonable criticisms of the former to typify Israel as completely and indefensibly evil in all ways, thus anything they say is false. Thus human shields is a lie they've made up to allow genocide. Or the disturbing number of people saying that they majority of people killed on 10/7 were actually just IDF forces, or better yet, most of those killed at the music festival were actually killed by IDF wantonly killing everyone to eliminate the Hamas fighters there ::)
That is how people that are supposedly just for "freeing Palestine" are shifting into Hamas apologists and tacit supporters
I'm not shifting goal posts, my post has nothing to do with jes's post. Not every response here is taking everything else into account.
We are in agreement, I just wish people would be in agreement with your first point instead of just the second.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 09:19:41 AM
Ya, that's not an argument or retort. You refuse to make a distinction between tbe words black lives matter and the BLM movement.
I do? How's that?
I'll respect BLM when they march in places like Chicago where black lives are lost every day. Also problematic where funding comes from and how it is used. It is s a wedge used to drive us apart.
Big difference between the black lives matter social awareness movement and BLM, Inc., hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 14, 2023, 10:30:08 AM
Big difference between the black lives matter social awareness movement and BLM, Inc., hey?
Yep. And some people use their political differences with the latter to discard the important and necessary message of the former.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on November 14, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
I'm not shifting goal posts, my post has nothing to do with jes's post. Not every response here is taking everything else into account.
We are in agreement, I just wish people would be in agreement with your first point instead of just the second.
I'm not saying you were, just in the progression of posts, you commented based off of the shift he made, all good.
And you're not wrong. This situation demands nuance, and unfortunately it's in short supply.
I do find it curious that many of the same people that are so emphatic to state that Palestinians =\= Hamas (which I agree with) but yet want to blanket one side as good and evil, with Israel being evil, thus those fighting them are good, AKA Hamas 🤨. Cause they are actively going so far as not to condemn military action, but the country of Israel, it's existence, and very being as "colonists" as pure evil.
I do find it bizarre that randomly in the last 2-3 years, "colonist" has become a new du jour insult/negative label of the uninformed WIDE left.
Some good posts lately, wags
Quote from: Pakuni on November 13, 2023, 08:45:16 PM
Sure, why not. Things went so well in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The problem there was that we failed to take advantage of our superior nuclear arsenal and murderize every living thing before "annexing". Resistance would have been far less, and there would have been absolutely no blow back from the rest of the world (or they get it, too!)
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 09:08:51 AM
The BLM Movement has absolutely nothing to do with our country's history from slavery to the present.
This is roqqet level stupidity. Congratulations.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 09:12:04 AM
Yes, we have racists. No one is denying that at all. It's about whether we're a racist country as a whole and how you actually define that? Has there been any progress? Etc, Etc, Etc.
America is a country that has made progress on racial-equity issues -- progress that has been achieved in fits and starts, often with major steps backward after a step or two forward -- and we're also a country that continues to be dogged by systemic racism.
There is STILL redlining in housing, STILL rampant racism in policing, STILL educational policies that hold back minorities, etc etc etc. These are systemic problems, and those who deny they exist are part of the problem.
The black lives matter movement, among many others, has been trying to combat that.
There
are some problems within BLM, the organization, which is unfortunate because it gives racists cover to deny what the black lives matter movement is trying to accomplish.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 14, 2023, 10:30:08 AM
Big difference between the black lives matter social awareness movement and BLM, Inc., hey?
100%
Quote from: JWags85 on November 14, 2023, 10:42:40 AM
I'm not saying you were, just in the progression of posts, you commented based off of the shift he made, all good.
And you're not wrong. This situation demands nuance, and unfortunately it's in short supply.
I do find it curious that many of the same people that are so emphatic to state that Palestinians =\= Hamas (which I agree with) but yet want to blanket one side as good and evil, with Israel being evil, thus those fighting them are good, AKA Hamas 🤨. Cause they are actively going so far as not to condemn military action, but the country of Israel, it's existence, and very being as "colonists" as pure evil.
I do find it bizarre that randomly in the last 2-3 years, "colonist" has become a new du jour insult/negative label of the uninformed WIDE left.
My position is that the IDF is doing what it needs to do. Also it is trying to mitigate IDF losses. Which is understandable. But there is a LOT of information out there about how seemingly reckless they're being with civilian lives. Which is what is going to be the rub.
And to be fair, the world ran on colonialism for a long time. It has taken a long time to undo only a little of that. Much of the global South and developing nations have legitimate beef. It is okay for people to acknowledge that the modern world we live in was heavily built on colonialism and the repression of native peoples. Is it to blame for all of the world's ills? No of course not.
Additionally, Israel is a colony. It is a Western country created from dispossessed land where there are still active illegal settlements occurring. In 1948 was it a lawful colony? I guess since those with power write the rules. And since the Arabic population that resided in the area commonly referred to as Palestine (Palestinians) didn't have any real power, and were forced to do what they were told as a result.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 14, 2023, 11:46:53 AM
Some good posts lately, wags
Thanks, sincerely appreciated.
Interestingly, I think Ive become more amenable to a true two state solution over the last couple years, especially now, but at the same time growing in respect and support of Israel. The insane polarization of opinion over the last month has really sort of distilled things for me and helped me really find my footing opinion wise, and given me some decent subjectivity. Watching the reactions of the un or ill-informed. Watching my BIL who is a fervent lover and supporter of his home country, but not Bibi, find the very logical ground that exists between "I don't love Likud/the administration" and "I'm a Jew and am embarrassed by/don't support Israel", while also knowing the strong IDF response in some fashion was/is needed.
As this war continues, or hopefully comes to some form of resolution, I hope there are more like me. The raging Twitter fingers/blind supporter protesters/klout hunting activists (and politicians) will disappear or move on to the next thing they believe they are supposed to rile up about. But reasonable heads and perspectives on the next step in attempted peace will be needed.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 14, 2023, 08:54:56 AM
Given that we're footing a large chunk of the bill, we have every right.. If and when Israel stops taking our money and weapons, they can tell us to f--- off. Until then, they should pay heed.
This also crossed my mind. As someone who doesn't really support meddling in other countries affairs, I do understand we do support other countries militarily/financially. I wonder if people in the USA and the Western Progressives and Alllied countries would react the same way if their countries didn't militarily and financially support Israel. Muggs, are you suggesting the world should let Israel defend itself or go to war without the allied support it has? No money, no military supplies, no say?
Also, the only correct answer to Black lives matter is damn right.
The only correct answer to all lives matter is damn right.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 08:48:55 AM
We have zero right to tell Israel how to defend themselves or put pressure on them to have a cease-fire. Let them do what they have to do. And frankly we also shouldn't be the ones deciding whatever happens down the road in Gaza. I implore the State of Israel to annihilate every single Hanas terrorist scumbag and not allow this garbage to happen again or listen to the media pressure.. Now, as you know I would go much further, but this idea of a cease-fire is insanely idiotic and inexcusable.
Nm was already said
All bickering aside, this is fascinating
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-6v8T3XEAAOmak?format=png&name=small)
I wouldn't advise looking at the Wikipedia of the procedure at work
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 14, 2023, 02:21:55 PM
This also crossed my mind. As someone who doesn't really support meddling in other countries affairs, I do understand we do support other countries militarily/financially. I wonder if people in the USA and the Western Progressives and Alllied countries would react the same way if their countries didn't militarily and financially support Israel. Muggs, are you suggesting the world should let Israel defend itself or go to war without the allied support it has? No money, no military supplies, no say?
Also, the only correct answer to Black lives matter is damn right.
The only correct answer to all lives matter is damn right.
Are we conducting the war in Ukraine?
Great to hear about the pro Israel rally in DC.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 04:24:24 PM
Are we conducting the war in Ukraine?
Conducting? No. Advising? Most assuredly.
Quote from: forgetful on November 14, 2023, 08:22:12 AM
I would argue that Israel needs to provide evidence that these schools/hospitals are indeed used as major military sites. Otherwise what they are doing is a war crime. The actions need to be investigated by independent individuals.
How about Jake Sullivan? Is he good enough as a neutral source?
When are you going to stop making excuses for genocidal terrorists?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/politics/al-shifa-hospital-us-intelligence/index.html
A US official with knowledge of American intelligence says Hamas has a command node under the Al-Shifa hospital, uses fuel intended for it and its fighters regularly cluster in and around Gaza's largest hospital.
The information comes after comments made Sunday by a top White House official that Hamas is using hospitals and civilian facilities.
"You can see even from open-source reporting that Hamas does use hospitals, along with a lot of other civilian facilities, for command-and-control, for storing weapons, for housing its fighters," National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on CNN's State of the Union. "Without getting into this specific hospital or that specific claim, this is Hamas' track record, both historically and in this conflict."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 14, 2023, 04:30:56 PM
Conducting? No. Advising? Most assuredly.
That's fine. Israel needs to get these guys. For their sake, the Palestinians sake, as well as the entire world frankly.
Fox News is broadcasting expert analysis on the Israel-Hamas conflict from noted foreign policy guru ... Fabio?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/for-israel-hamas-war-expertise-fox-turns-to-fabio
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 04:37:19 PM
That's fine. Israel needs to get these guys. For their sake, the Palestinians sake, as well as the entire world frankly.
Perhaps Jack Bauer or Denzel can secretly relay your 5 (or is it now 6), point plan. Clearly you aren't doing enough to support the Israelis keeping your plan secret.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 14, 2023, 04:24:24 PM
Are we conducting the war in Ukraine?
Not following what you're getting at. What about Israel acts and exists on its own with no foreign intervention. Different reactions?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 14, 2023, 03:55:43 PM
All bickering aside, this is fascinating
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-6v8T3XEAAOmak?format=png&name=small)
I wouldn't advise looking at the Wikipedia of the procedure at work
Israel has long been a leader in the tech and medical space. I actually knew a couple biomed engineers who worked for Israeli startups that were based in Tel Aviv, but operated in the US early on cause they had the ideas/parents, but it was easier to find engineering talent in the US initially.
Kind of a neat karmic 180 a few generations after the medical horrors during the Holocaust
Hamas tells you what they want: permanent war with Israel. They got it and did not care about the death of their people (sacrificed martyrs).
And yet, all the discussion here is about supposed Israeli war crimes.
What is a proportional response when this is what your enemy wants?
----
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html
To much of the outside world, Hamas's decision to murder hundreds of Israelis and trigger a war that has since killed many thousands of its own people looks like a historic miscalculation — one that could soon result in the destruction of Hamas itself.
Hamas's leaders, however, say that it was the result of a deliberate calculation.
Ben Hubbard, the Istanbul bureau chief for The New York Times, has been reporting on their decision, and what went into it.
Since the shocking Hamas attack on Oct. 7, in which Israel says about 1,400 people were killed — most of them civilians — and more than 240 others dragged back to Gaza as captives, the group's leaders have praised the operation, with some hoping it will set off a sustained conflict that ends any pretense of coexistence among Israel, Gaza and the countries around them.
"I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us," Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The Times.
The weeks since have seen a furious Israeli response that has killed more than 10,000 people in Gaza, according to health officials there. But for Hamas, the attack stemmed from a growing sense that the Palestinian cause was being pushed aside, and that only drastic action could revive it.
----
On the surface, the months before the brutal assault seemed relatively quiet in Gaza. Hamas had sat out recent clashes between Israel and other militants, and the group's political leaders were a thousand miles away in Qatar, negotiating to get more aid and jobs for residents of the impoverished territory.
But the frustration was building. Hamas leaders in Gaza were flooded with images of Israeli settlers attacking Palestinians in the West Bank, Jews openly praying at a contested site customarily reserved for Muslims, and the Israeli police storming the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, a touchstone for Palestinian claims to the holy city. The prospect of Israel's normalizing ties with Saudi Arabia, long a deep-pocketed patron of the Palestinian cause, appeared closer than ever.
Then, on a quiet Saturday morning, Hamas attacked.
It was clear in advance that Israel would respond by bombarding Gaza, killing Palestinian civilians.
"What could change the equation was a great act, and without a doubt, it was known that the reaction to this great act would be big," Mr. al-Hayya said.
But, he added, "We had to tell people that the Palestinian cause would not die."
Contrasting choices/actions of a terrorist group to a Democratic nation-state is interesting.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 14, 2023, 05:58:37 PM
Contrasting choices/actions of a terrorist group to a Democratic nation-state is interesting.
jes, I respect you and believe you are fair-handed. How do you think Israel should root out and eliminate a large, well-funded, well-armed terrorist organization that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? A group that started this mess by launching a surprise terrorist attack that killed 1,400 Israelis and took women and children hostages? A group that doesn't care about sacrificing its own people to martyrdom?
I'm open-minded. I'd love to hear a really good plan to eliminate Hamas while also harming zero (or close to it) innocents.
However, if the plan is, "Well, it isn't that important to eliminate Hamas," I'm less open-minded to that. Because Hamas won't stop as long as it has a beating heart.
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2023, 10:31:46 PM
jes, I respect you and believe you are fair-handed. How do you think Israel should root out and eliminate a large, well-funded, well-armed terrorist organization that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? A group that started this mess by launching a surprise terrorist attack that killed 1,400 Israelis and took women and children hostages? A group that doesn't care about sacrificing its own people to martyrdom?
I'm open-minded. I'd love to hear a really good plan to eliminate Hamas while also harming zero (or close to it) innocents.
However, if the plan is, "Well, it isn't that important to eliminate Hamas," I'm less open-minded to that. Because Hamas won't stop as long as it has a beating heart.
I'm totally in favor of eliminating a terrorist organization such as Hamas.
I just find it weird to state that the actions of a terrorist group justify potential war crimes from a should-be-better democratic nation state.
Are you going to have unintentional casualties? Sure.
Are all the unintentional casualties actually unintentional? I don't know.
Were mass civilian casualties justified after 9/11 when the US went after bin Laden? I don't think so.
Hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 15, 2023, 07:10:13 AM
How?
Needed to establish some basic deniability of inexcusable violence vs just leaning into it from the start?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 05:25:00 AM
I'm totally in favor of eliminating a terrorist organization such as Hamas.
I just find it weird to state that the actions of a terrorist group justify potential war crimes from a should-be-better democratic nation state.
Are you going to have unintentional casualties? Sure.
Are all the unintentional casualties actually unintentional? I don't know.
Were mass civilian casualties justified after 9/11 when the US went after bin Laden? I don't think so.
There is a lot we don't know yet about this Hamas-Israel conflict, that's certainly true.
Your last paragraph has nothing to do with this conflict. I was not in favor of that war, and neither was the guy who would become the next president of the United States.
But one could respond to your question with this one, which presents a more similar situation:
Were mass civilian casualties justified after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? I think so.
Or this question:
If the Canadian government launched an invasion against the United States, killed 1,400 American citizens, took hundreds of hostages, live-streamed the beheadings of some of those hostages, and proclaimed that its No. 1 goal was eliminating the American people, would that justify mass civilian casualties in Canada? I think so.
I see IDF is using very specific language now with their attacks and raids. I can only think this is due to louder and louder calls for a ceasefire and the waning support of Israeli leadership.
Quote from: MU82 on November 15, 2023, 07:43:23 AM
There is a lot we don't know yet about this Hamas-Israel conflict, that's certainly true.
Your last paragraph has nothing to do with this conflict. I was not in favor of that war, and neither was the guy who would become the next president of the United States.
But one could respond to your question with this one, which presents a more similar situation:
Were mass civilian casualties justified after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? I think so.
Or this question:
If the Canadian government launched an invasion against the United States, killed 1,400 American citizens, took hundreds of hostages, live-streamed the beheadings of some of those hostages, and proclaimed that its No. 1 goal was eliminating the American people, would that justify mass civilian casualties in Canada? I think so.
We can agree to disagree.
I think we could agree that more transparency would help
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 05:25:00 AM
I'm totally in favor of eliminating a terrorist organization such as Hamas.
I just find it weird to state that the actions of a terrorist group justify potential war crimes from a should-be-better democratic nation state.
This is my issue with the calls for a ceasefire though. I understand the intent, but its not a call for a "ceasefire", its strictly a call for Israel to stop attacking/advancing/pursuing military action. A ceasefire implies 2 warring sides lay down their weapons. We know that Hamas DGAF about a ceasefire and they've declared a war on Israel.
So I don't disagree that a democratic nation state should be better than a terrorist group. But the situation right now truly seems to be Israel continues advancing...or they accept the calls for a "ceasefire" and sit back, which lets Hamas regroup, stop being on the defensive, and do what they do next.
Its a horrible situation, its a set of decision making and geopolitical strategizing that I am completely not envious of, but I think its disingenuous for people (not saying anyone here) to keep viewing this in the historical lens of warfare, given Hamas' lack of adherence to all rules and decency of warfare.
I don't know what y'all don't get. Its a fookin' war, not some make believe bullchit game to play nice in the sandbox. Yes, war is hell and people will die. Hamas should have thought about the consequences before their attack of Oct. 7. But, then again, they don't give a dung about the Palestinians and find it an honor to die for Allah, aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 08:32:30 AM
I think we could agree that more transparency would help
Transparency? During War? You are kidding, right?
Quote from: JWags85 on November 15, 2023, 08:42:40 AM
This is my issue with the calls for a ceasefire though. I understand the intent, but its not a call for a "ceasefire", its strictly a call for Israel to stop attacking/advancing/pursuing military action. A ceasefire implies 2 warring sides lay down their weapons. We know that Hamas DGAF about a ceasefire and they've declared a war on Israel.
So I don't disagree that a democratic nation state should be better than a terrorist group. But the situation right now truly seems to be Israel continues advancing...or they accept the calls for a "ceasefire" and sit back, which lets Hamas regroup, stop being on the defensive, and do what they do next.
Its a horrible situation, its a set of decision making and geopolitical strategizing that I am completely not envious of, but I think its disingenuous for people (not saying anyone here) to keep viewing this in the historical lens of warfare, given Hamas' lack of adherence to all rules and decency of warfare.
I never said anything about a ceasefire.
My post was merely a response to the mindset that because Hamas committed 10/7, that justifies Israel committing potential war crimes - killing innocent Palestinians indiscriminately.
As I said before, more transparency/evidence would help significantly
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 15, 2023, 08:54:11 AM
Transparency? During War? You are kidding, right?
Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 08:32:30 AM
We can agree to disagree.
I think we could agree that more transparency would help
Agree that some more transparency could help assuage some of the ill feelings toward Israel. But even that would be a one-way street. The only thing Hamas is transparent about is its desire to crush Israel and eliminate every last Jew on the planet.
Thanks for the conversation, jes.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 08:56:56 AM
Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.
Yeah, it's all Israel's fault ::)
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 08:56:56 AM
Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.
Or being falsely accused of riding shotgun with Hamas.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 15, 2023, 09:12:14 AM
Yeah, it's all Israel's fault ::)
Israel isn't limiting journalist access?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 09:35:20 AM
Israel isn't limiting journalist access?
Israels position is that it's a freaking war zone, and its for their safety. Many journalists have been killed already. They can't tell journalists go here, or go there because of tactical issues.
Hate to break this to you, but Hamas has completely censored journalists, and have murdered several.
SIMON: I have to ask, is Hamas welcoming to journalists?
MANSOUR: No. In addition to access problems from the Israeli side, of course, Hamas have enforced its censorship regime within Gaza. For the first time, this war that we have documented Israeli journalists being killed by Hamas fighters, four of them who were killed in southern Israel on October 7 in unprecedented assault.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 15, 2023, 09:43:05 AM
Israels position is that it's a freaking war zone, and its for their safety. Many journalists have been killed already. They can't tell journalists go here, or go there because of tactical issues.
Hate to break this to you, but Hamas has completely censored journalists, and have murdered several.
SIMON: I have to ask, is Hamas welcoming to journalists?
MANSOUR: No. In addition to access problems from the Israeli side, of course, Hamas have enforced its censorship regime within Gaza. For the first time, this war that we have documented Israeli journalists being killed by Hamas fighters, four of them who were killed in southern Israel on October 7 in unprecedented assault.
"Journalists embedded with the IDF in Gaza operate under the observation of Israeli commanders in the field, and are not permitted to move unaccompanied within the strip," said Becky Anderson, introducing Diamond's report. "
As a condition to enter Gaza under IDF escort, outlets have to submit all materials and footage to the Israeli military for review prior to publication."
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 09:48:17 AM
"Journalists embedded with the IDF in Gaza operate under the observation of Israeli commanders in the field, and are not permitted to move unaccompanied within the strip," said Becky Anderson, introducing Diamond's report. "As a condition to enter Gaza under IDF escort, outlets have to submit all materials and footage to the Israeli military for review prior to publication."
As it should, so no strategic info is given out. What/how much footage or materials hasn't been released?
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 15, 2023, 09:43:05 AM
Israels position is that it's a freaking war zone, and its for their safety. Many journalists have been killed already. They can't tell journalists go here, or go there because of tactical issues.
Oh, come on. Israel has a long record of not caring at all about journalists' safety. IDF troops have literally murdered journalists.
https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/
If you want to make the argument that Israel is limiting access for strategic reasons, that's credible and even understandable. Claiming they're doing to protect journalists' safety is extreme naivete.
Quote
Hate to break this to you, but Hamas has completely censored journalists, and have murdered several.
I think this is what Jesmu means when he points out that some are setting Hamas' behavior as the bar for Israel's behavior. Is it wrong to expect better?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 15, 2023, 09:54:47 AM
I think this is what Jesmu means when he points out that some are setting Hamas' behavior as the bar for Israel's behavior. Is it wrong to expect better?
Jesmu stated it's Israels fault there is no transparency. I was simply pointing out that Hamas has completely shut down access. Israel allows journalists via caravans to spots.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 15, 2023, 10:00:16 AM
Jesmu stated it's Israels fault there is no transparency. I was simply pointing out that Hamas has completely shut down access. Israel allows journalists via caravans to spots.
I never stated that.
I did say I would appreciate journalists having access without Israel control
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 10:29:13 AM
I never stated that.
I did say I would appreciate journalists having access without Israel control
you didn't?
Quote from: lawdog77 on Today at 08:54:11 AM
Transparency? During War? You are kidding, right?
Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 08:56:14 AM
I never said anything about a ceasefire.
My post was merely a response to the mindset that because Hamas committed 10/7, that justifies Israel committing potential war crimes - killing innocent Palestinians indiscriminately.
As I said before, more transparency/evidence would help significantly
I don't understand what you want. You want HAMAS eliminated, but you don't support that Israel is trying to eliminate them.
Rather than speaking in generalities (and nobody wants innocent civilians to die except for the usual nuts on Scoop), what would YOU do to eliminate HAMAS?
Quote from: Jockey on November 15, 2023, 01:01:30 PM
I don't understand what you want. You want HAMAS eliminated, but you don't support that Israel is trying to eliminate them.
Rather than speaking in generalities (and nobody wants innocent civilians to die except for the usual nuts on Scoop), what would YOU do to eliminate HAMAS?
Send in the dentists to broker peace talks
Feed 'em rat poison, aina?
Quote from: Jockey on November 15, 2023, 01:01:30 PM
I don't understand what you want. You want HAMAS eliminated, but you don't support that Israel is trying to eliminate them.
Rather than speaking in generalities (and nobody wants innocent civilians to die except for the usual nuts on Scoop), what would YOU do to eliminate HAMAS?
Eliminating Hamas =\= killing innocent Palestinians
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 01:10:40 PM
Eliminating Hamas =\= killing innocent Palestinians
Yes, you keep saying and I think most here agree.
Yet you still won't tell us what you would do to eliminate HAMAS. It's way easier to be against something than to come up with an actual plan.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F--RdbJWoAA2DTz?format=jpg&name=medium)
I think cynicism about the IDF and its priorities comes from photos like this, in large English letters. Catering to a western US audience (that's where the funding comes from after all). Between that and the story about Al Shifa changing over and over; It's hard as a distant observer to take that in good faith. (I know war is foggy, etc etc).
If this is their prioritization in a desperate humanitarian situation, what reason is there to think differently that it's just them flashing a brief empty gesture of their humanitarian obligations before continuing the recklessness?
Quote from: Jockey on November 15, 2023, 01:32:10 PM
Yes, you keep saying and I think most here agree.
Yet you still won't tell us what you would do to eliminate HAMAS. It's way easier to be against something than to come up with an actual plan.
I'm not a military general.
But I can't imagine the only choices are do nothing vs kill everyone
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 15, 2023, 01:50:56 PM
I'm not a military general.
But I can't imagine the only choices are do nothing vs kill everyone
But they aren't "killing everyone". There are 2.3MM people in Gaza, over 6000 per square KM, recent estimates are 11,000 killed. Since that is coming from Hamas, we don't know the mix of Hamas/PIJ fighters and civilians (purposefully so).
Again, not to be Facebook meme-ish, but if Israel's goal was mass murder/genocide/extermination of Palestinians while fighting Hamas, they aren't doing a great job of it.
Like Jockey said, all of us agree that as few civilians casualties as absolutely possible is what is desired, but hot take anti-Israel headlines would have you believe that the Palestinian population has been decimated.
Average population growth in Gaza has historically been around 70K people a year the past decade or so. Again, its not, oh F' em, there are plenty left, its just perspective that is sorely lacking.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 15, 2023, 02:22:28 PM
But they aren't "killing everyone". There are 2.3MM people in Gaza, over 6000 per square KM, recent estimates are 11,000 killed.
Muggsy wants to know what this would extrapolate to if it were the U.S. population.
(Answer: Almost 1.6 million)
Bombing a hospital is a war crime, right? Anyone who does this should be hauled before the Hague and tried, correct?
Or, bombing hospitals and killing civilians is perfectly acceptable as long as Jews do not do it? Otherwise, what is the difference?
----
December 29, 2016
US military says Mosul airstrike may have killed civilians at hospital
Van carrying Isis fighters was target of US-led coalition airstrike
US military: 'The van was struck in ... a hospital compound parking lot'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/29/us-military-mosul-airstrike-civilians-casualties-hospital
An airstrike by the US-led coalition operating against Islamic State militants near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul hit a van in a hospital compound parking lot and may have killed civilians, the US military said on Thursday.
A van carrying Isis fighters was targeted and hit in the airstrike, the Combined Joint Strike Force said in a statement.
"The van was struck in what was later determined to be a hospital compound parking lot resulting in possible civilian casualties," it said.
Earlier this month, the US said it had targeted a hospital complex in Mosul which was being used by Isis fighters.
In the past two years airstrikes from US, Russian and Saudi planes have hit hospitals in Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen and Iraq, and caused many civilian casualties.
Fighting continued in eastern Mosul on Thursday, as Iraqi troops backed by airstrikes and artillery broke a two-week lull in fighting with a multi-pronged assault.
-----
December 9, 2016
US Military Admits: We Deliberately Bombed a Hospital in Iraq
Military spokesperson says "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that no civilians were killed
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/12/09/us-military-admits-we-deliberately-bombed-hospital-iraq
The U.S. military said Thursday that it intentionally bombed a hospital in Mosul, Iraq as part of its efforts to "eradicate" Islamic State (ISIS) fighters.
The attack on the Al Salam hospital complex took place Wednesday at the request of Iraqi forces, with coalition aircraft using "precision-guided munitions," Air Force Col. John Dorrian, spokesperson for the U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, told reporters.
He said "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that there were no civilian casualties, whether in the building targeted or elsewhere within the hospital complex.
ISIS fighters, Dorrian said, "were using the facility to fire heavy machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades at the Iraqi security forces in the area." The strike on the "normally protected facility" allowed the Iraqi forces "to fall back to a more defensible position," he said.
The "protection of civilians," he said later in the press conference, "has been a centerpiece, a foundational element of the campaign to liberate Mosul."
The military is not carrying out an investigation but rather an "assessment" of the strike, the spokesperson added.
As long as Jews don't do it, no biggie ...
December 20, 2017
More than 9,000 killed in battle for Mosul: AP
AP investigation reveals nearly 10 times higher civilian casualty rate than previously reported in nine-month battle.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/20/more-than-9000-killed-in-battle-for-mosul-ap
Between 9,000 and 11,000 people were killed in the nine-month battle to recapture the Iraqi city of Mosul from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant group (ISIL), an Associated Press (AP) investigation has found.
The civilian casualty rate is nearly 10 times higher than that previously reported.
More Elon anti-semitism at X
https://x.com/eladnehorai/status/1724925699629404292?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Those incidences were bad too
Quote from: Pakuni on November 15, 2023, 02:35:16 PM
Muggsy wants to know what this would extrapolate to if it were the U.S. population.
(Answer: Almost 1.6 million)
Cut the nonsense Pakuni.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 15, 2023, 06:10:18 PM
Cut the nonsense Pakuni.
If you held yourself to this same standard, you would have stopped posting in this topic weeks ago.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 15, 2023, 06:10:18 PM
Cut the nonsense Pakuni.
I'm just applying your logic.
Which, yes, is nonsense. Glad you figured it out.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 15, 2023, 06:17:13 PM
I'm just applying your logic.
Which, yes, is nonsense. Glad you figured it out.
No, you are not. A country and people were viciously slaughtered and are responding. The comparison is to 9-11-01, not collateral damage because Hamas terrorists are utter filth. They are responsible, period. Now, if you want to disagree with me do so with regards to the fact that I would preemptively completely eliminate Hezbollah. I understand many disagree with this and can take some constructive criticism.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 15, 2023, 05:48:16 PM
More Elon anti-semitism at X
https://x.com/eladnehorai/status/1724925699629404292?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
I expect nothing less from this maggot.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 15, 2023, 05:48:16 PM
More Elon anti-semitism at X
https://x.com/eladnehorai/status/1724925699629404292?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
He's one of the right's heroes now, so he can't possibly be a raging anti-Semite who needs to be called out. Much easier to call to silence 19-year-old college kids than someone with influence over millions. Much easier to put the anti-Semite label on Scoopers who disagree with you than on "vermin" like Musk, Tucker, Jewish Space Laser, Gosar and the 91-felony Criminal Defendant.
Quote from: Jockey on November 15, 2023, 06:47:41 PM
I expect nothing less from this maggot.
Is anyone buying a Tesla moving forward supporting anti-semitism? The answer is yes
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 15, 2023, 06:26:58 PM
No, you are not. A country and people were viciously slaughtered and are responding. The comparison is to 9-11-01, not collateral damage because Hamas terrorists are utter filth. They are responsible, period. Now, if you want to disagree with me do so with regards to the fact that I would preemptively completely eliminate Hezbollah. I understand many disagree with this and can take some constructive criticism.
No one said anything about responsibility, Muggs.
I was just pointing out the asinine measuring of an atrocity by percentage of population. 1,400 people killed in Israel is no different than 1,400 people killed in America or 1,400 people killed in China. The value of a human life doesn't change based on the size of the country in which that person happens to live. An Israeli life is no more or less valuable than that of any other nationality.
Quote from: MU82 on November 15, 2023, 07:31:16 PM
He's one of the right's heroes now, so he can't possibly be a raging anti-Semite who needs to be called out. Much easier to call to silence 19-year-old college kids than someone with influence over millions. Much easier to put the anti-Semite label on Scoopers who disagree with you than on "vermin" like Musk, Tucker, Jewish Space Laser, Gosar and the 91-felony Criminal Defendant.
Eloon leaves something to be desired re his antisemitism, but he is just a pawn, far down the ladder.
So sayeth the drooling dentist.
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2023, 10:31:46 PM
jes, I respect you and believe you are fair-handed. How do you think Israel should root out and eliminate a large, well-funded, well-armed terrorist organization that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? A group that started this mess by launching a surprise terrorist attack that killed 1,400 Israelis and took women and children hostages? A group that doesn't care about sacrificing its own people to martyrdom?
I'm open-minded. I'd love to hear a really good plan to eliminate Hamas while also harming zero (or close to it) innocents.
However, if the plan is, "Well, it isn't that important to eliminate Hamas," I'm less open-minded to that. Because Hamas won't stop as long as it has a beating heart.
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it is an interesting and extremely difficult question, but part of the question misses key aspects.
First, although I've been brandished by some here as something different. I'm very pro-Israeli, although I also recognize and appreciate the plight of the Palestinian people. One can be supportive of the rights of each. Where I'm critical of Israel, is really criticism of the Likud Party and similar like minded, or even more extreme Far-Right political parties in Israel, who I think have greatly contributed to the current untenable situation.
So asking how one would go about eliminating the horrific Hamas terror network is in my opinion an incomplete question. It only looks at what to do now (some ideas later), and neglects all the actions that led up to this point. Quite frankly, the world shouldn't have let this situation get to the point it is now.
Now, some probably very poor ideas of how Hamas could be eliminated in a more just manner.
1) Israel should not be fighting Hamas alone, it is guaranteed to fail. It validates the Us vs. Them struggle (persecution) that is a cornerstone of both religions. The seemingly indiscriminate attacks will galvanize another generation of individuals hell-bent on getting revenge and attacking Israel. Instead, a coalition should have been created, and every avenue should have been attempted to include possible Arab countries in the coalition.
2) To gain support by Arab countries, and to change the image of the War, Israel should have worked towards a plan for a 2-state solution upon the elimination of Hamas, likely involving coalition forces, led by Arab nations (maybe Saudi Arabia) that would remain behind until internal government structures could be created to maintain order (maybe 10-20 years). US pressure on Arab allies, like Saudi Arabia, may have been able to get them to buy in, under the understanding of it leading to a 2-state solution. This would allow Israel and the coalition to look more like liberators than attackers, and would avoid the image of this being an Israel vs. the Palestinians issue.
3) Open checkpoints into Israel before invasion, to allow primarily Palestinian women and children refugees to settle in UN led refugee camps on Israeli soil, to minimize the number of civilian deaths, primarily amongst woman and children. Again, this looks like concessions to the Palestinian people, and compassion for their lives, changing the narrative of the war. It also is letting Palestinians onto Israeli soil, which would not look like evicting them from their homes (e.g. another Nakba)
4) When they went in on the ground, any/all areas cleared of Hamas should have been immediately turned into refugee zones, with medical, food, water, everything provided for those that were trapped, so that they could stay safely in Gaza. Again, these could be led/operated by the UN. Surrounding a hospital with people dying on mass inside, including infants, while not providing life saving resources is not ok, period. They knew they needed 1000's of liters of fuel per day, instead they brought useless incubators (they already had incubators)
5) Don't be bombing hospitals. If there is a command center under the hospital encircle it, they know where the entry points to tunnels are. Smoke them out, or collapse every possible entrance/exit and let them die underground. The bombing accomplished nothing but making Israel look bad and killing innocent civilians.
Similarly, you cannot bomb residential complexes, because a Hamas member lives in that complex. That is a war crime.
Don't bomb a convoy of ambulances with patients in it, even after the hospital contacted the Red Cross notifying them of patients being evacuated...immediately after Israel told them to evacuate patients via ambulance. And many other similar aspects that likely had minimal operational benefit, but created significantly negative public images.
All of the above, or mixtures of the above might have taken longer to get set up and in place, but it would have had a better chance of having a lasting affect. The approach Israel took, is reactionary (understandably), and one of the least likely to have a lasting affect (going 100% Muggsy on them would have been worse).
Note: I prefer to have a lot of time to write posts like this one so that there can be more nuance to a complicated topic, so I'd appreciate some leeway on it not being polished.
Also, I realize these likely wouldn't work. But the current plan is also guaranteed to fail longterm. If we want to eliminate horrific organizations like Hamas long-term, we need to think outside of the box, and rectify problems that led to their formation to begin with.
I appreciate you taking the time to write that post, forgetful.
The part that focuses on past transgressions (and/or perceptions of them) is now ancient history and does nothing about what to do to eliminate Hamas.
As for that, you make some reasonable suggestions, but most if not all might not be feasible in 1. a war zone and 2. in a war against a terror organization that will NEVER play by the rules. Everything Hamas does is a "war crime," and there is nobody to hold them accountable. They laugh at the UN or the United States or the "West" dictating any terms to them.
The best hope IMHO is that Israeli forces take still more care in trying to avoid civilian casualties than they already are. But I'm no military strategist - nobody here is - so I really don't know what that entails.
Thanks again, take care, and peace.
Quote from: forgetful on November 15, 2023, 10:12:28 PM
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it is an interesting and extremely difficult question, but part of the question misses key aspects.
First, although I've been brandished by some here as something different. I'm very pro-Israeli, although I also recognize and appreciate the plight of the Palestinian people. One can be supportive of the rights of each. Where I'm critical of Israel, is really criticism of the Likud Party and similar like minded, or even more extreme Far-Right political parties in Israel, who I think have greatly contributed to the current untenable situation.
So asking how one would go about eliminating the horrific Hamas terror network is in my opinion an incomplete question. It only looks at what to do now (some ideas later), and neglects all the actions that led up to this point. Quite frankly, the world shouldn't have let this situation get to the point it is now.
Now, some probably very poor ideas of how Hamas could be eliminated in a more just manner.
1) Israel should not be fighting Hamas alone, it is guaranteed to fail. It validates the Us vs. Them struggle (persecution) that is a cornerstone of both religions. The seemingly indiscriminate attacks will galvanize another generation of individuals hell-bent on getting revenge and attacking Israel. Instead, a coalition should have been created, and every avenue should have been attempted to include possible Arab countries in the coalition.
2) To gain support by Arab countries, and to change the image of the War, Israel should have worked towards a plan for a 2-state solution upon the elimination of Hamas, likely involving coalition forces, led by Arab nations (maybe Saudi Arabia) that would remain behind until internal government structures could be created to maintain order (maybe 10-20 years). US pressure on Arab allies, like Saudi Arabia, may have been able to get them to buy in, under the understanding of it leading to a 2-state solution. This would allow Israel and the coalition to look more like liberators than attackers, and would avoid the image of this being an Israel vs. the Palestinians issue.
3) Open checkpoints into Israel before invasion, to allow primarily Palestinian women and children refugees to settle in UN led refugee camps on Israeli soil, to minimize the number of civilian deaths, primarily amongst woman and children. Again, this looks like concessions to the Palestinian people, and compassion for their lives, changing the narrative of the war. It also is letting Palestinians onto Israeli soil, which would not look like evicting them from their homes (e.g. another Nakba)
4) When they went in on the ground, any/all areas cleared of Hamas should have been immediately turned into refugee zones, with medical, food, water, everything provided for those that were trapped, so that they could stay safely in Gaza. Again, these could be led/operated by the UN. Surrounding a hospital with people dying on mass inside, including infants, while not providing life saving resources is not ok, period. They knew they needed 1000's of liters of fuel per day, instead they brought useless incubators (they already had incubators)
5) Don't be bombing hospitals. If there is a command center under the hospital encircle it, they know where the entry points to tunnels are. Smoke them out, or collapse every possible entrance/exit and let them die underground. The bombing accomplished nothing but making Israel look bad and killing innocent civilians.
Similarly, you cannot bomb residential complexes, because a Hamas member lives in that complex. That is a war crime.
Don't bomb a convoy of ambulances with patients in it, even after the hospital contacted the Red Cross notifying them of patients being evacuated...immediately after Israel told them to evacuate patients via ambulance. And many other similar aspects that likely had minimal operational benefit, but created significantly negative public images.
All of the above, or mixtures of the above might have taken longer to get set up and in place, but it would have had a better chance of having a lasting affect. The approach Israel took, is reactionary (understandably), and one of the least likely to have a lasting affect (going 100% Muggsy on them would have been worse).
Note: I prefer to have a lot of time to write posts like this one so that there can be more nuance to a complicated topic, so I'd appreciate some leeway on it not being polished.
Also, I realize these likely wouldn't work. But the current plan is also guaranteed to fail longterm. If we want to eliminate horrific organizations like Hamas long-term, we need to think outside of the box, and rectify problems that led to their formation to begin with.
Thank you Secretary of State Forgetful for this well thought out plan to set the world on fire and get about 1 billion people killed.
1) Hanas wants a perpetual war with the West. So, let's introduced US troops so not only make it easier for Hamas to kill them, but further inflame the middle east.
Israel can handle all by themselves. They don't need anyone's help.
2) are you not paying attention? The Arab countries already said no to this. Not interested.
3) Isreal is a democracy. As such those refugees will get to vote in local and national elections. This is a one state solution. Let in millions of Palestinian refugees so they can vote Hamas as their leadership and let them eliminate the Jewish race inside Israel's borders.
4) are you not paying attention. Isreal is doing this. Sorry the extreme progressive news outlets you read are not reporting it.
Isreal has set up field hositpals to transfers all the patients. They even have a neo-natal unit set up to transfer the infants. The problem is Hamas is shooting at the IDF in the halls when they try and evacuate them and have threaten to kill them, sorry sacrifice these infant Maytrs.
Buy hey wrote another 500 word post about supposed Isreali war crimes and conveniently ignore actual Hamas war crimes. And be sure to remain completely uninterested is the Isreali infant hostages held by Hamas.
Now we get to General Forgetful military strategy portion...
5) Israel does not bomb hospitals, and have not. Your confusing them with Obama in 2016 (posts above). He bombs hospitals.
And why do you think injecting poison gas into a hospital is a good idea and not a war crime? Or, general Forgetful, did you miss that class at West point when they explained what "smoke them out" means?
Isreal does not bomb residences, it does not bomb ambulances, again that would be Obama (Post above). What it does is attack Military targets and takes the utmost care to minimize civilian casualities. Where are your posts condemning human shields purposely put in harms way?
In sum not so just another anti-zionist a screed from a guy that claims to be a Zionist.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 15, 2023, 08:04:43 PM
Eloon leaves something to be desired re his antisemitism, but he is just a pawn, far down the ladder.
So sayeth the drooling dentist.
Too much novocaine
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 16, 2023, 07:44:11 AM
Too much novocaine
I believe with his abhorrent anti-semitism, investors and business leaders will cut ties with him. Hopefully, local, state and federal governments will no longer subsidize him and his companies as well.
I truly believe he is doomed
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 07:37:22 AM
In sum not so just another anti-zionist a screed from a guy that claims to be a Zionist.
forgetful took his time to address a very difficult situation. You disagree, and that's cool, but you can't help yourself and attach a personal attack at the end of it.
It's one of the many reasons why you routinely ruin even some of your decent arguments, one of the many reasons why so few take you seriously.
Also, you're unusually quiet about your anti-Semitic hero, Musk. Much easier to attack people you don't know than a rich, entitled, flamethrowing, bigoted a-hole who tells us more about who he is every day.
But yeah, 18-year-old freshmen at Cornell and Brandeis should know better!
Quote from: MU82 on November 16, 2023, 08:40:26 AM
forgetful took his time to address a very difficult situation. You disagree, and that's cool, but you can't help yourself and attach a personal attack at the end of it.
Because he is a simple person with simple thoughts. There is no nuance allowed. You are either a "Zionist" or "anti-Zionist."
That's why he gets dunked in repeatedly here, not just in this topic but in others.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 07:37:22 AM
3) Isreal is a democracy. As such those refugees will get to vote in local and national elections. This is a one state solution. Let in millions of Palestinian refugees so they can vote Hamas as their leadership and let them eliminate the Jewish race inside Israel's borders.
This is so absurd and preposterous it completely undermines any reasonable points you make...like many of your posts. Even the Likud party isn't this unhinged
Quote from: MU82 on November 16, 2023, 07:31:48 AM
I appreciate you taking the time to write that post, forgetful.
The part that focuses on past transgressions (and/or perceptions of them) is now ancient history and does nothing about what to do to eliminate Hamas.
As for that, you make some reasonable suggestions, but most if not all might not be feasible in 1. a war zone and 2. in a war against a terror organization that will NEVER play by the rules. Everything Hamas does is a "war crime," and there is nobody to hold them accountable. They laugh at the UN or the United States or the "West" dictating any terms to them.
The best hope IMHO is that Israeli forces take still more care in trying to avoid civilian casualties than they already are. But I'm no military strategist - nobody here is - so I really don't know what that entails.
Thanks again, take care, and peace.
I don't disagree with you at all. I don't think there is a good solution.
I also agree that past transgressions are in the past, and will not help in eliminating Hamas now.
My focus on them, is in the not so simple question of, how do we avoid this repeating the same cycle of the past. Where Hamas, or a similar like minded organization re-emerges. If we don't understand past failures, we are doomed to repeat them.
I guess where I differ a bit, is I don't think it should be a question of how do we eliminate Hamas, but rather, how do we eliminate Hamas and avoid them re-emerging, possibly even stronger.
John Oliver discusses the war in his most recent episode. It's a comedy show so some might take offense, but some of the points are worth a listen.
Quote from: MU82 on November 16, 2023, 08:40:26 AM
It's one of the many reasons why you routinely ruin even some of your decent arguments, one of the many reasons why so few take you seriously.
I take him as seriously as I take the dentists.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 07:37:22 AM
3) Isreal is a democracy. As such those refugees will get to vote in local and national elections. This is a one state solution. Let in millions of Palestinian refugees so they can vote Hamas as their leadership and let them eliminate the Jewish race inside Israel's borders.
Great Replacement Theory, Israel Edition.
Note, in my different rapidly generated ideas, moving women and children refugees into UN camps on Israeli soil is a temporary process, only for the duration of military excursions by a coalition force to eradicate Hamas. That would remove them from the crossfire.
Once Hamas was eradicated by coalition forces, with Arab led peacekeepers remaining, those refugees would be moved back into their original places in Gaza.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 16, 2023, 08:55:15 AM
This is so absurd and preposterous it completely undermines any reasonable points you make...like many of your posts. Even the Likud party isn't this unhinged
It's called "right of return" and it has its own wiki page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return
Your apology is accepted.
Quote from: MU82 on November 16, 2023, 08:40:26 AM
forgetful took his time to address a very difficult situation. You disagree, and that's cool, but you can't help yourself and attach a personal attack at the end of it.
It's one of the many reasons why you routinely ruin even some of your decent arguments, one of the many reasons why so few take you seriously.
Also, you're unusually quiet about your anti-Semitic hero, Musk. Much easier to attack people you don't know than a rich, entitled, flamethrowing, bigoted a-hole who tells us more about who he is every day.
But yeah, 18-year-old freshmen at Cornell and Brandeis should know better!
I addressed Musk earlier. I barely pay attention to him and have no idea what he is saying. And I'm not interested in spending time coming up to speed on his tweets.
So have at him .... not interested.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/musk-endorses-tweet-claiming-jews-stoke-hatred-of-white-people-as-the-actual-truth/amp/
Nice summary of Elon's anti-semitism with numbers showing how X has become a bastion for anti-semites and racists. Very telling stuff that a social media owner is propagating anti-Semitic tropes. No wonder anti-semitism is on the rise
When will his supporters push back? Very important question
Quote from: forgetful on November 16, 2023, 12:17:59 PM
Note, in my different rapidly generated ideas, moving women and children refugees into UN camps on Israeli soil is a temporary process, only for the duration of military excursions by a coalition force to eradicate Hamas. That would remove them from the crossfire.
Once Hamas was eradicated by coalition forces, with Arab led peacekeepers remaining, those refugees would be moved back into their original places in Gaza.
So they are sub-human only to be corralled like livestock, fed, and cleaned? Then, when they act like actual humans and hundreds of thousands refuse to return and claim their "right of return," people like you will agree. The UN will demand a right of return. Hundreds of thousands will protest for their right of return.
Then what? Force them back to Gaza at the point of a Bayonet? Will you support that? It's your idea!
Tucker Carlson continues his anti-Semitic ways with fellow anti-semite, Candace Owens.
https://www.mediaite.com/news/tucker-carlson-accused-of-going-full-on-antisemite-in-interview-with-candace-owens/amp/
One wonders when the pushback will come against Carlson and he'll be called out for spewing this nonsense to his audience. Very shameful
Quote from: forgetful on November 16, 2023, 12:17:59 PM
Note, in my different rapidly generated ideas, moving women and children refugees into UN camps on Israeli soil is a temporary process, only for the duration of military excursions by a coalition force to eradicate Hamas. That would remove them from the crossfire.
Once Hamas was eradicated by coalition forces, with Arab led peacekeepers remaining, those refugees would be moved back into their original places in Gaza.
This is a fantasy. No Arab country will take even one Palestinian refugee and will never send Arab peacekeepers into Gaza. They have repeatedly said they will do no such thing over and over in just the last few weeks.
Why do you keep bringing this up?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
It's called "right of return" and it has its own wiki page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return
Your apology is accepted.
That is not at all the same as Palestinian refugees overrunning Israel and electing Hamas the ruling party.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 16, 2023, 03:27:58 PM
That is not at all the same as Palestinian refugees overrunning Israel and electing Hamas as the ruling party.
If several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees relocate to Israel. In that case, they will claim the "right of return" and, therefore, are Israeli citizens and vote for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or something similar to the Israeli government.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 04:12:14 PM
If several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees relocate to Israel. In that case, they will claim the "right of return" and, therefore, are Israeli citizens and vote for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or something similar to the Israeli government.
Do you know the population of Israel? 300K Palestinians becoming Israeli citizens wouldn't even crack 10% of the population. Given half the population of Gaza is minors, that's likely less than 150K new voters. They likely wouldn't significantly affect a legislation, much less thrust an entire new party and ideology into power.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 04:12:14 PM
If several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees relocate to Israel. In that case, they will claim the "right of return" and, therefore, are Israeli citizens and vote for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or something similar to the Israeli government.
This is so dumb.
1. Israel isn't going to grant several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees citizenship and the right to vote.
2. Israel isn't going to allow Hamas to operate as a legitimate political party and put its candidates on the ballot.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 16, 2023, 04:31:19 PM
This is so dumb.
1. Israel isn't going to grant several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees citizenship and the right to vote.
2. Israel isn't going to allow Hamas to operate as a legitimate political party and put its candidates on the ballot.
Correct and correct ... and the UN will accuse them if human rights violations.
In other words, they do not want these people's responsibility, nor are they required to take them.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
It's called "right of return" and it has its own wiki page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return
Your apology is accepted.
Numerous people here have put out possible ideas and partial solutions. Obviously with a lot of thought.
But you just throw out ill thought out answers to solve everything and insult those who have actual ideas.
You are a know-it-all who knows almost nothing. You think the longer your post is, the wiser you are. It's embarrassing in the worst chicos tradition.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 04:12:14 PM
If several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees relocate to Israel. In that case, they will claim the "right of return" and, therefore, are Israeli citizens and vote for Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or something similar to the Israeli government.
Embarrassing.
i guess pro-palestinian insurrections are different than that "other" one eyn'a?
another "mostly peaceful" freedom of expression i guess vandalizing the white house fence, multiple police officers injured
and ONE ARREST??? hmmmmmmm....some are just more equal than others
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 16, 2023, 06:09:52 PM
i guess pro-palestinian insurrections are different than that "other" one eyn'a?
another "mostly peaceful" freedom of expression i guess vandalizing the white house fence, multiple police officers injured
and ONE ARREST??? hmmmmmmm....some are just more equal than others
9.5 out of 10
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 16, 2023, 06:49:56 PM
9.5 out of 10
Are you a Russian judge. What does it take to get a 10?
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 16, 2023, 06:59:42 PM
Are you a Russian judge. What does it take to get a 10?
He failed to mention The View and/or ice cream
Quote from: Jockey on November 16, 2023, 05:53:23 PM
Numerous people here have put out possible ideas and partial solutions. Obviously with a lot of thought.
But you just throw out ill thought out answers to solve everything and insult those who have actual ideas.
You are a know-it-all who knows almost nothing. You think the longer your post is, the wiser you are. It's embarrassing in the worst chicos tradition.
Long posts about having American troops fighting in Gaza, using poison gas in the hospital, fantasies about Arab peacekeepers, and the suggestion that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians be moved into Israel, are posts that have been a lot of thought put into it.
So you're allowed to criticize me in a way I am not allowed to criticize the ridiculousness of forgetful's post.
Because if I wrote that BS you'd be lighting it up like no other post I've ever written.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 01:37:43 PM
I addressed Musk earlier. I barely pay attention to him and have no idea what he is saying. And I'm not interested in spending time coming up to speed on his tweets.
So have at him .... not interested.
Ah, so you're only interested in Musk when it serves your purposes to fellate him. No interest in his anti-Semitism at all. Only certain people's anti-Semitism bothers you. Got it.
What could have been done differently is kind of a moot point now.
Anyone have any ideas on what the end game looks like? Once the primary military objectives are met, what then?
How does one avoid this just following the endless cycle of violence in the region?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 09:46:07 PM
Long posts about having American troops fighting in Gaza, using poison gas in the hospital, fantasies about Arab peacekeepers, and the suggestion that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians be moved into Israel, are posts that have been a lot of thought put into it.
So you're allowed to criticize me in a way I am not allowed to criticize the ridiculousness of forgetful's post.
Because if I wrote that BS you'd be lighting it up like no other post I've ever written.
1. I called for a coalition. And newsflash, American troops are on the ground over there right now. You won't see it publicly discussed, because the types of troops operating in the region aren't discussed.
2. You are the first to discuss using poison gas in hospitals.
3. It's not a fantasy. It could be done. But needs a 2-state solution to get people on board. It's actually consistent with elements of the Arab Peace Plan that has been proposed multiple times since 2002.
4. Temporary relocation of refugees into Israel is better than bombing them in Gaza, and/or suggestions of forcing them into Egypt.
Next, I'm not addressing most of your posts because they are ridiculous. And I would have posted earlier, but I was working with a group setting up a Shabbat with empty chairs for the 240 hostages still being held in Gaza.
Quote from: forgetful on November 16, 2023, 10:23:31 PM
What could have been done differently is kind of a moot p'oint now.
Anyone have any ideas on what the end game looks like? Once the primary military objectives are met, what then?
How does one avoid this just following the endless cycle of violence in the region?
How did we avoid the endless cycle of violence with Germany and Japan, and the confederacy? By winning the war.
The cycle of violence continues because you have a negotiated peace or half settlements. One side has to prevail over the other and the cycle of violence ends. prevailing does not mean genocide, Germany, Japan, and the confederacy were not a genocide.
Quote from: forgetful on November 16, 2023, 10:44:07 PM
1. I called for a coalition. And newsflash, American troops are on the ground over there right now. You won't see it publicly discussed, because the types of troops operating in the region aren't discussed.
2. You are the first to discuss using poison gas in hospitals.
3. It's not a fantasy. It could be done. But needs a 2-state solution to get people on board. It's actually consistent with elements of the Arab Peace Plan that has been proposed multiple times since 2002.
4. Temporary relocation of refugees into Israel is better than bombing them in Gaza, and/or suggestions of forcing them into Egypt.
Next, I'm not addressing most of your posts because they are ridiculous. And I would have posted earlier, but I was working with a group setting up a Shabbat with empty chairs for the 240 hostages still being held in Gaza.
American troops are on the ground looking for our hostages. That is hardly the same as a coalition of Western armies killing Palestinians. Do you have any idea what that would signal to the Arab world to the Muslim World? That would set off a world war between the West and the Muslim world where 1 billion people would die.
When did I discuss using poison Gas in a hospital? You're the one who brought up "smoke them out." This means use poison gas.
But I see, we're supposed to take you conceptually, not precisely and analytically like everybody else does here on this board. So what did you mean by "smoke them out?"
Did you really mean "wait them out?" And deny the patients their proper medical care and maybe food and water? No, they're supposed to surround the hospital and let it operate indefinitely for the rest of time ... that's what you meant.
In other words, you want them to do nothing. Do you want Hamas to operate in the tunnels under the hospital for the forever, plotting to kill Jews?
Again, you can write the words "Arab peacekeeping." Still, there is absolutely nothing in the 75-year history, the current rhetoric among Arab politicians, Israeli politicians, American politicians, the Western press, and the Arab press to suggest this was ever considered viable. It is something you just made up.
So Israel opens its border and corrals hundreds of thousands of people into a big livestock pen and feeds and cleans them. The world goes crazy that they're treating them like Subhumans. Then, with no civilians in Gaza, they turn the place into your parking lot without killing any civilians. And that none of those hundreds of thousands of people in the big livestock pen in Israel want to return. So then what?
Do you force them to return to Gaza at the point of a bayonet? That is a human rights violation and might be worse than what is happening right now. And while in Israel for the long haul, they start screaming about the right of return, how they want their land back, their rights to vote, and the other nearly six million Palestinians to have the same. In other words, they just won. They just took over Israel.
Every one of the four above is a complete disaster. They take a bad situation and make it orders of magnitude worse.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 16, 2023, 11:04:11 PM
American troops are on the ground looking for our hostages. That is hardly the same as a coalition of Western armies killing Palestinians. Do you have any idea what that would signal to the Arab world to the Muslim World? That would set off a world war between the West and the Muslim world where 1 billion people would die.
When did I discuss using poison Gas in a hospital? You're the one who brought up "smoke them out." This means use poison gas.
But I see, we're supposed to take you conceptually, not precisely and analytically like everybody else does here on this board. So what did you mean by "smoke them out?"
Did you really mean "wait them out?" And deny the patients their proper medical care and maybe food and water? No, they're supposed to surround the hospital and let it operate indefinitely for the rest of time ... that's what you meant.
In other words, you want them to do nothing. Do you want Hamas to operate in the tunnels under the hospital for the forever, plotting to kill Jews?
Again, you can write the words "Arab peacekeeping." Still, there is absolutely nothing in the 75-year history, the current rhetoric among Arab politicians, Israeli politicians, American politicians, the Western press, and the Arab press to suggest this was ever considered viable. It is something you just made up.
So Israel opens its border and corrals hundreds of thousands of people into a big livestock pen and feeds and cleans them. The world goes crazy that they're treating them like Subhumans. Then, with no civilians in Gaza, they turn the place into your parking lot without killing any civilians. And that none of those hundreds of thousands of people in the big livestock pen in Israel want to return. So then what?
Do you force them to return to Gaza at the point of a bayonet? That is a human rights violation and might be worse than what is happening right now. And while in Israel for the long haul, they start screaming about the right of return, how they want their land back, their rights to vote, and the other nearly six million Palestinians to have the same. In other words, they just won. They just took over Israel.
Every one of the four above is a complete disaster. They take a bad situation and make it orders of magnitude worse.
(https://media.tenor.com/g_A4grtscqYAAAAC/dumb-stupid.gif)
Quote from: MU82 on November 16, 2023, 09:59:10 PM
Ah, so you're only interested in Musk when it serves your purposes to fellate him. No interest in his anti-Semitism at all. Only certain people's anti-Semitism bothers you. Got it.
A few posts ago you criticized me for posting what you thought was an attack.
But now that I committed terrible sin of not paying attention to Musk, because I'm not interested in what he says, it is perfectly ok to attack me, complete with a homopobic slur.
Honestly 82 you're better than this. I expected it from the weak minded snowflakes, not you.
Maybe Hamas = Palestinians
If so, and their stated goal is to eliminate the Jewish race, what is the proportional response?
Better question might be what is not. See WW2.
——
Survey finds majority in the West Bank support the Oct 7 massacre
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1700158968-survey-finds-majority-in-the-west-bank-justify-the-oct-7-massacre
The Birzeit University poll finds that Palestinian terror groups are widely supported, with over 80 percent supporting the various factions
An opinion poll conducted by Birzeit University's Arab World for Research & Development (AWRAD) revealed that a majority of surveyed Palestinians in the West Bank support the October 7 massacre carried out by Hamas, and an even wider majority have a positive view of the various terrorist factions.
After over 1,200 people were brutally murdered and over 240 taken hostage, including children and elderly, many civilians tortured and raped, the survey showed that 68 percent in the West Bank strongly supported the massacres and kidnapping, while another 16 percent supported to some extent.
Asked on their view of various entities, respondents answered overwhelmingly in support of the military wings of the terrorist organizations; Palestinian Islamic Jihad with 84 percent; al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades with 80 percent, and al-Qassam Brigades with the highest 89 percent, though Hamas as a whole received a lower 76 percent.
so how is it the revelations of all the anti-antisemitism that has been present all along, but just buried to act as if it doesn't exist, any different than the KKK?
it's NOT
so why such a disproportionate response to it?
the huge pro-palestinian (insurrections) riots are nothing but huge gatherings of "bigoted", although not a strong enough term, people(used loosely)
interesting how media seems a little ok with antisemitism but bring up david duke and their hair's on fire and rightly so, but seems a little off
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 17, 2023, 06:22:56 AM
so how is it the revelations of all the anti-antisemitism that has been present all along, but just buried to act as if it doesn't exist, any different than the KKK?
it's NOT
so why such a disproportionate response to it?
the huge pro-palestinian (insurrections) riots are nothing but huge gatherings of "bigoted", although not a strong enough term, people(used loosely)
interesting how media seems a little ok with antisemitism but bring up david duke and their hair's on fire and rightly so, but seems a little off
WTF are you talking about? There have been plenty of stories on rising antisemitism all over the media. Just do a Google search and you can see it.
Stop being willfully ignorant.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 17, 2023, 06:22:56 AM
so how is it the revelations of all the anti-antisemitism that has been present all along, but just buried to act as if it doesn't exist, any different than the KKK?
it's NOT
so why such a disproportionate response to it?
the huge pro-palestinian (insurrections) riots are nothing but huge gatherings of "bigoted", although not a strong enough term, people(used loosely)
interesting how media seems a little ok with antisemitism but bring up david duke and their hair's on fire and rightly so, but seems a little off
7 out of 10
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 17, 2023, 06:22:56 AM
so how is it the revelations of all the anti-antisemitism that has been present all along, but just buried to act as if it doesn't exist, any different than the KKK?
it's NOT
so why such a disproportionate response to it?
the huge pro-palestinian (insurrections) riots are nothing but huge gatherings of "bigoted", although not a strong enough term, people(used loosely)
interesting how media seems a little ok with antisemitism but bring up david duke and their hair's on fire and rightly so, but seems a little off
YOU love Trump. YOU love Tucker. YOU love Musk. YOU downplay the evil bigotry of Jew-haters like MTG and the Proud Boys.
YOU obviously are more than "a little ok with antisemitism."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 17, 2023, 05:15:30 AM
But now that I committed terrible sin of not paying attention to Musk, because I'm not interested in what he says
The question is WHY aren't you interested in what Elon Musk says?
You are VERY interested in what some 18-22 year old college student signs - you think he or she should be unemployable for the rest of his or her life if his or her name is on some student protest paper ... but you aren't the least bit interested in one of the most powerful people in the world actively recruiting Jew-haters to his platform, actively supporting Jew-haters, going out of his way to agree with Jew-haters?
19-year-old Skippy Jones at Harvard is a threat to Jews and Israel ... a few Scoopers you disagree with are threats to Jews and Israel ... a few politicians with little real influence are threats to Jews and Israel ... but Elon Effen Musk isn't?
Here's this today on Seeking Alpha:
IBM has suspended advertising on Elon Musk's X, formerly known as Twitter, after a media report said the social media platform ran the tech giant's ads next to pro-Nazi material.
Non-profit website Media Matters said it found ads from major brands such as IBM (IBM), Apple (AAPL), Oracle (ORCL), Comcast's (CMCSA) Xfinity and NBCUniversal's Bravo next to content "that touts Adolf Hitler and his Nazi Party."
"IBM (IBM) has zero tolerance for hate speech and discrimination, and we immediately suspended all advertising on X while we investigate this entirely unacceptable situation," a company spokesperson told Seeking Alpha. ...
IBM's move follows Musk agreeing with a conspiracy theory that claimed Jewish communities were "pushing dialectical hatred against whites." He also blamed the ADL for anti-white rhetoric.
"At a time when antisemitism is exploding in America and surging around the world, it is dangerous to use one's influence to validate and promote antisemitic theories," said ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt.Douchey, you've probably written 100 posts on what you feel is anti-Semitism on college campuses. I've agreed with some and not agreed with others. In other threads, you've displayed admiration for Elon Musk (you're right: I shouldn't have used the term "fellated") and you have spoken about what an important outlet you think X is.
But now that the two issues have collided - Musk is a powerful anti-Semite with powerful allies (including most of the GOP) and a powerful platform - you suddenly aren't "interested"?
OK. But somehow I have a feeling that if this were the NYT taking advertising dollars from the Nazis or if this were a university president claiming Jewish communities were "pushing dialectical hatred against whites," you'd have been VERY interested, and you'd have had another couple dozen posts about it.
My recommendation would be that you tone down your rhetoric toward a few Scoopers you disagree with, and start focusing your outrage on powerful people like Musk, whose Jew-hating actually has an influence on the world.
The Economist is portraying things in Gaza a little differently.
I guess the livestock pen in Israel is not needed.
-----
The end of the beginning
The battle of northern Gaza is almost over
But a dire humanitarian situation in the south is getting worse
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/11/15/the-battle-of-northern-gaza-is-almost-over
city which, six weeks ago, was home to nearly 1m people is now a hollow shell. When The Economist was invited on November 14th to join an Israeli military-supply convoy to al-Shati, a once-cramped refugee camp in northern Gaza, none of its 90,000 residents was there. Many of the camp's dense apartment buildings had been destroyed; others were badly damaged. Armoured columns of the Israel Defence Forces (idf) had torn up roads. Electricity, water and sewage infrastructure no longer exist. The situation is similar in much of Gaza city and in outlying towns.
After six weeks of war and three weeks of ground fighting, Israel now has effective control of the area north of Wadi Gaza, a riverbed that bisects the 45km-long strip (see map). The devastation heralds the end of one phase of Israel's war against Hamas, which began on October 7th after the Palestinian Islamist group carried out a massacre that ended with around 1,400 Israelis killed or kidnapped. Weeks of Israeli action have killed more than 11,000 Palestinians in Gaza. They have also, in effect dislodged Hamas from power, at least in the north of the enclave: the group that has controlled Gaza since 2007 is now scattered and reeling.
---
In recent days attention has been focused on al-Shifa hospital, the largest in Gaza, and other such facilities. Israel says Hamas has an underground headquarters beneath al-Shifa. It also believes that some of its 239 hostages were hidden there, at least temporarily. On November 15th, after encircling it for six days, Israeli troops entered the hospital compound.
The situation was still unfolding as The Economist went to press, but initial reports suggest the idf found neither the leadership of Hamas nor any of the hostages. Most of the 60,000 or so Palestinians who had been sheltering at the hospital in the early days of the war had also vanished. When Israeli troops entered, only 1,500 or so people remained, a mix of medical staff, patients and displaced people.
Most fled south—as did everyone else. Once home to more than half of Gaza's population, the north is now a deserted wasteland. The Israeli troops in al-Shati report only a few encounters with small groups of civilians. There are no accurate figures for how many people remain, clustered around hospitals and relief centres. Israeli and foreign sources believe they number only in the tens of thousands.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 17, 2023, 08:08:21 AM
I guess the livestock pen in Israel is not needed.
If you wonder why you have been titled "not a serious person," its because of things like this. You intentionally make crap up, and grossly mischaracterize anything anyone says, if you don't agree with them.
When proven wrong, you double, triple, or quadruple down.
I tried to engage in honest discussion, but it is time to put you on ignore. There is no honest, and fruitful discussion here.
Was pointed to this by someone last night. Apparently part of the evidence the US/Israel is using in regards to there being a base under Al Shifa is the fact that Israel built a bunker and operating room underneath Al Shifa back in 1983.
They believed Hamas was using the Israeli bunker.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107 (https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107)
Newsweek validated that Israel did indeed build a fortified bunker under Al Shifa, by cross-referencing multiple Israeli news sources in the past that referenced its construction.
Quote from: MU82 on November 16, 2023, 09:59:10 PM
Ah, so you're only interested in Musk when it serves your purposes to fellate him. No interest in his anti-Semitism at all. Only certain people's anti-Semitism bothers you. Got it.
Douchey is now claiming he has no interest in Musk? LOL, the Twitter Reading Limits thread says otherwise.
Quote from: forgetful on November 17, 2023, 08:14:12 AM
If you wonder why you have been titled "not a serious person," its because of things like this. You intentionally make crap up, and grossly mischaracterize anything anyone says, if you don't agree with them.
When proven wrong, you double, triple, or quadruple down.
I tried to engage in honest discussion, but it is time to put you on ignore. There is no honest, and fruitful discussion here.
Welcome, plenty of room left in the club.
The mixture of dishonesty, stupidity, and illogic make useful discussions impossible.
Oh da irony! Plenty of brown, stinky, mushy matter between the mope squad ears here, hey?
Says the guy that thinks Scoopers are so influential that they need to be on a list of antisemites, but elected national representatives, one of the world's richest billionaires, one of the right's most popular pundits, and the presumptive nominee of the Nazi republican party are small fish beneath notice.
I don't know, maybe stick to anti-vax memes?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 16, 2023, 01:41:24 PM
https://www.timesofisrael.com/musk-endorses-tweet-claiming-jews-stoke-hatred-of-white-people-as-the-actual-truth/amp/
Nice summary of Elon's anti-semitism with numbers showing how X has become a bastion for anti-semites and racists. Very telling stuff that a social media owner is propagating anti-Semitic tropes. No wonder anti-semitism is on the rise
When will his supporters push back? Very important question
This isn't addressing to me, but Ive found this all very disturbing/interesting.
Ive been a fairly vocal Musk "defender". Not so much a fanboy, but an admirer of his work and his efforts in a bunch of tech spaces. More recently, Ive pushed back hard against the, IMO, super dumb efforts to discredit him based on people not liking him. Hes not smart, he actually inherited hundreds of millions from a magical emerald mine, etc...
That being said, I'm beyond disgusted with where he's went over the last 2-3 months. I'm not in the camp that thinks this is what he always has been (oh he's from Apartheid SA, he's always been a racist bigot), but I think his attempt to be galaxy brained in rooting out all "conspiracies" has melted his mind, put him in alignment with a bunch of hateful dipshits, and turned him into someone who has a pretty twisted view of everything. Anti-semitism, like racism, is a learned behavior that develops over time. And buying into absurd conspiracies helps that ideology bloom like algae in a pond. And, FWIW, I think this has gone beyond typical two party political bounds.
Ive always been able to separate business from the person, but I'd have major pause if I was heavily invested or tied to TSLA, SpaceX, etc...
"Says the guy that thinks Scoopers are so influential that they need to be on a list of antisemites"
So, its ok to be antisemitic...if you're just a regular Joe, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2023, 11:16:01 AM
So, its ok to be antisemitic...if you're just a regular Joe, hey?
Said no one. But, some idiot has given rich, famous, influential people a pass...as long as they are on one side of the political aisle.
BTW, there are a few posters here who are not idiots, hey?
And?
Quote from: JWags85 on November 17, 2023, 11:04:43 AM
This isn't addressing to me, but Ive found this all very disturbing/interesting.
Ive been a fairly vocal Musk "defender". Not so much a fanboy, but an admirer of his work and his efforts in a bunch of tech spaces. More recently, Ive pushed back hard against the, IMO, super dumb efforts to discredit him based on people not liking him. Hes not smart, he actually inherited hundreds of millions from a magical emerald mine, etc...
That being said, I'm beyond disgusted with where he's went over the last 2-3 months. I'm not in the camp that thinks this is what he always has been (oh he's from Apartheid SA, he's always been a racist bigot), but I think his attempt to be galaxy brained in rooting out all "conspiracies" has melted his mind, put him in alignment with a bunch of hateful dipcraps, and turned him into someone who has a pretty twisted view of everything. Anti-semitism, like racism, is a learned behavior that develops over time. And buying into absurd conspiracies helps that ideology bloom like algae in a pond. And, FWIW, I think this has gone beyond typical two party political bounds.
Ive always been able to separate business from the person, but I'd have major pause if I was heavily invested or tied to TSLA, SpaceX, etc...
I find Musk's actions far more disturbing based on his influence. His influence crosses political lines. There is a far greater devoted cult to him than what's happening at say, Columbia.
The same is true for Tucker who has a devoted cult of worshippers as well. Dismissing them as pawns is fascinating to me. Two media figures who we've been told are as powerful as any when it comes to the next election spouting anti-Semitic messages don't matter but what's happening at college campuses does?
Huh.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2023, 07:43:27 AM
The question is WHY aren't you interested in what Elon Musk says?
You are VERY interested in what some 18-22 year old college student signs - you think he or she should be unemployable for the rest of his or her life if his or her name is on some student protest paper ... but you aren't the least bit interested in one of the most powerful people in the world actively recruiting Jew-haters to his platform, actively supporting Jew-haters, going out of his way to agree with Jew-haters?
19-year-old Skippy Jones at Harvard is a threat to Jews and Israel ... a few Scoopers you disagree with are threats to Jews and Israel ... a few politicians with little real influence are threats to Jews and Israel ... but Elon Effen Musk isn't?
Here's this today on Seeking Alpha:
IBM has suspended advertising on Elon Musk's X, formerly known as Twitter, after a media report said the social media platform ran the tech giant's ads next to pro-Nazi material.
Non-profit website Media Matters said it found ads from major brands such as IBM (IBM), Apple (AAPL), Oracle (ORCL), Comcast's (CMCSA) Xfinity and NBCUniversal's Bravo next to content "that touts Adolf Hitler and his Nazi Party."
"IBM (IBM) has zero tolerance for hate speech and discrimination, and we immediately suspended all advertising on X while we investigate this entirely unacceptable situation," a company spokesperson told Seeking Alpha. ...
IBM's move follows Musk agreeing with a conspiracy theory that claimed Jewish communities were "pushing dialectical hatred against whites." He also blamed the ADL for anti-white rhetoric.
"At a time when antisemitism is exploding in America and surging around the world, it is dangerous to use one's influence to validate and promote antisemitic theories," said ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt.
Douchey, you've probably written 100 posts on what you feel is anti-Semitism on college campuses. I've agreed with some and not agreed with others. In other threads, you've displayed admiration for Elon Musk (you're right: I shouldn't have used the term "fellated") and you have spoken about what an important outlet you think X is.
But now that the two issues have collided - Musk is a powerful anti-Semite with powerful allies (including most of the GOP) and a powerful platform - you suddenly aren't "interested"?
OK. But somehow I have a feeling that if this were the NYT taking advertising dollars from the Nazis or if this were a university president claiming Jewish communities were "pushing dialectical hatred against whites," you'd have been VERY interested, and you'd have had another couple dozen posts about it.
My recommendation would be that you tone down your rhetoric toward a few Scoopers you disagree with, and start focusing your outrage on powerful people like Musk, whose Jew-hating actually has an influence on the world.
I am interested in Twitter, but that does not mean I follow whatever Musk pontificates about or retweets on X. So, regarding the second part, this is the first I've seen of it.
Regarding the first part, the inability to regulate hate speech on X, I'm in 100% agreement. This is terrible. If I was an advertiser on X I would stop too until this was cleaned up. So I agree with IBM and the others that stopped advertising.
Quote from: forgetful on November 17, 2023, 08:14:12 AM
If you wonder why you have been titled "not a serious person," its because of things like this. You intentionally make crap up, and grossly mischaracterize anything anyone says, if you don't agree with them.
When proven wrong, you double, triple, or quadruple down.
I tried to engage in honest discussion, but it is time to put you on ignore. There is no honest, and fruitful discussion here.
Ok, when you say that Israel has to accept Palestinian refugees in its country. Then you detail the following:
How many
How will be be housed
How long
What if they don't want to return, then what
What if these "refugee camps" have violence and/or unrest. How aggressive can Israel be in quelling this?
What if they demand a "right of return" and protest to get it
—-
Convince me this will not be a livestock pen that feeds and cleans the refugees for a period of weeks with the expectation they will all walk back to Gaza when ordered. And this will not be fraught with all kinds of problems, issues, and violence that spawn another 100 pages of outrage on this thread.
Because, this idea has not been through through. It is a bunch of virtual signaling words that will garnering you praise from other unthinking types. Sorry I ruined your plan.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 17, 2023, 11:04:43 AM
This isn't addressing to me, but Ive found this all very disturbing/interesting.
Ive been a fairly vocal Musk "defender". Not so much a fanboy, but an admirer of his work and his efforts in a bunch of tech spaces. More recently, Ive pushed back hard against the, IMO, super dumb efforts to discredit him based on people not liking him. Hes not smart, he actually inherited hundreds of millions from a magical emerald mine, etc...
That being said, I'm beyond disgusted with where he's went over the last 2-3 months. I'm not in the camp that thinks this is what he always has been (oh he's from Apartheid SA, he's always been a racist bigot), but I think his attempt to be galaxy brained in rooting out all "conspiracies" has melted his mind, put him in alignment with a bunch of hateful dipcraps, and turned him into someone who has a pretty twisted view of everything. Anti-semitism, like racism, is a learned behavior that develops over time. And buying into absurd conspiracies helps that ideology bloom like algae in a pond. And, FWIW, I think this has gone beyond typical two party political bounds.
Ive always been able to separate business from the person, but I'd have major pause if I was heavily invested or tied to TSLA, SpaceX, etc...
I think this is a solid post. I've never been a big Musk fan, and do not think he was ever a "genius," but this stuff is all different, scary, and frankly a little unhinged.
I think your synopsis, and theory regarding where this came from is solid.
Regarding the bolded. I wonder how much his words will impact his companies stock prices.
Also, if you get a chance to visit or take part in any of the Shabbat's being set up with 240+ empty seats around the country, I'd recommend it. Sobering event.
-----
One other note that you might find interesting, and in the vein of there can certainly be peace. Unfortunately I wasn't able to attend, but I had been invited to a wedding (Syrian couple). They live down 2-blocks from a large Synagogue and in a neighborhood largely populated by Jewish families (with whom they are decent friends with several). Saw the pictures and the wedding involved both the Syrian families with traditional Islamic wedding practices, and Jewish families wishing them well and taking part in the festivities.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2023, 11:29:58 AM
I find Musk's actions far more disturbing based on his influence. His influence crosses political lines. There is a far greater devoted cult to him than what's happening at say, Columbia.
The same is true for Tucker who has a devoted cult of worshippers as well. Dismissing them as pawns is fascinating to me. Two media figures who we've been told are as powerful as any when it comes to the next election spouting anti-Semitic messages don't matter but what's happening at college campuses does?
Huh.
I agree with this as well. I mean, you just glance at X and you'll see people who have historically been anti-woke, liberals are the worst, etc... and suddenly they are dancing around in anti-Israel messaging, heavily rooted anti-Semitic basis, and agreeing with people that wouldn't normally follow simple political lines. Its really F'd up.
Quote from: forgetful on November 17, 2023, 12:11:32 PM
One other note that you might find interesting, and in the vein of there can certainly be peace. Unfortunately I wasn't able to attend, but I had been invited to a wedding (Syrian couple). They live down 2-blocks from a large Synagogue and in a neighborhood largely populated by Jewish families (with whom they are decent friends with several). Saw the pictures and the wedding involved both the Syrian families with traditional Islamic wedding practices, and Jewish families wishing them well and taking part in the festivities.
Absolutely. Its the real world versus polarized internet world. I know multiple people who had no idea their good friend was Jewish until they got a wedding invite. The vast majority of people have no issues with the religious preference provided the person in question is a good friend/neighbor.
Its the same as politics. You get Millenials/GenZ on the internet talking about how they would never be friends with/date/etc... someone that is a Republican/woke/didn't loudly support XYZ, but in reality hardly anyone lives like that, and the ones that do are in a like minded echo chamber that isn't going to bring them in contact with anyone counter to their thinking anyways.
Quote from: forgetful on November 17, 2023, 08:21:57 AM
Was pointed to this by someone last night. Apparently part of the evidence the US/Israel is using in regards to there being a base under Al Shifa is the fact that Israel built a bunker and operating room underneath Al Shifa back in 1983.
They believed Hamas was using the Israeli bunker.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107 (https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107)
Newsweek validated that Israel did indeed build a fortified bunker under Al Shifa, by cross-referencing multiple Israeli news sources in the past that referenced its construction.
This is why I get on your case because this post, like so many others from you (including the ones you delete), are thinly veiled anti-Zionist screeds. While you say you support Israel you do posts like this over and over, and for those that understand your implication, they think you're not genuine in your support of Israel.
——
So let me add some context.
1983 was 22 years before Hamas was voted as the Government of Gaza. In 1983 Israel occupied Gaza. It was so calm that Gaza city was actually a nice place. People from as far away as Tel Aviv would drive to Gaza City to go to nightclubs on Saturday night.
After the Olso accords were agreed to in 1994, Bill Clinton visited Gaza in 1998. Air Force one landed at what is now Yassir Arafat Airport in Gaza and Clinton met with Arafat and the PM of Israel in Gaza City. Half of Clinton's cabinet was with him. The secret service saw Gaza City and Tele Aviv as equal in terms of the security risk for the President.
Gaza was a far different place back then and that is when people suggested it could become the Hong Kong or Singapore of the Middle East. It has some of the most beatiful beaches in the world and argubaly better weather than southern CA.
Then in 2000 when Arafat walked away from Ehud Barak/Bill Clinton two state solution (yes, he walked away), everything went south. The Second Intafida began and few months later. Since Arafat lived in Gaza and was orchasating the violence, Gaza desended into the open air prison it is today.
Arafat died in 2004, and with him the PLO's leadership, which effectively no longer exists. Gaza got really ugly. So Israel pulled out in 2005, and not only forcibly removed all Jews from Gaza, but as I noted before, they even dug up Jewish graves and took the remains with them.
——
So Israel built hospitals, and a lot of other building they have been attacking in the last six weeks, when they ran the place decades ago when it was relatively calm.
So big deal that Israel built Al-Shifa 40 years ago. And big deal it has tunnels under it. That was a different time.
What is your point, or inference here?
Quote from: JWags85 on November 17, 2023, 11:04:43 AM
Ive been a fairly vocal Musk "defender". Not so much a fanboy, but an admirer of his work and his efforts in a bunch of tech spaces. More recently, Ive pushed back hard against the, IMO, super dumb efforts to discredit him based on people not liking him. Hes not smart, he actually inherited hundreds of millions from a magical emerald mine, etc...
That being said, I'm beyond disgusted with where he's went over the last 2-3 months. I'm not in the camp that thinks this is what he always has been (oh he's from Apartheid SA, he's always been a racist bigot), but I think his attempt to be galaxy brained in rooting out all "conspiracies" has melted his mind, put him in alignment with a bunch of hateful dipcraps, and turned him into someone who has a pretty twisted view of everything. Anti-semitism, like racism, is a learned behavior that develops over time. And buying into absurd conspiracies helps that ideology bloom like algae in a pond. And, FWIW, I think this has gone beyond typical two party political bounds.
This is close to where I am, though I noticed the radical change some time ago. Five-six-seven years ago I did think Musk was a genius and I was kicking myself for feeling like I had missed out on buying TSLA. I think this was around the time that SpaceX was just beginning to take off (so to speak).
But then Musk started to make some very odd public comments--not political, just really strange. Then he full blown jumped the shark, and I was glad I didn't invest in a company run by someone so unstable that their actions could sink it. And all that was well before his Twitter escapades.
Playing the amateur psychologist, he seemed to me that his fame and power sent him over the edge. I think he quickly realized that he was immune from all rules and repercussions. I mean, manipulate the market, turn a $130M profit on that manipulation, and the FEC fines you $10M? A joke. Then add in millions of fanbois who reinforce everything he does, absolutely fawning Boards of Directors, no one in his circle that will tell him no...his ego is unchecked.
Whether his views have developed over time or whether his wealth or power have just allowed him to express who has always been I don't know, but he shows the world everyday exactly what he is now.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 17, 2023, 11:36:43 AM
I am interested in Twitter, but that does not mean I follow whatever Musk pontificates about or retweets on X. So, regarding the second part, this is the first I've seen of it.
Regarding the first part, the inability to regulate hate speech on X, I'm in 100% agreement. This is terrible. If I was an advertiser on X I would stop too until this was cleaned up. So I agree with IBM and the others that stopped advertising.
Thanks for the response. But again, I would suggest that you - as a vocal defender of Jews and Israel - SHOULD be very interested that one of the most powerful people on the planet, the richest person in the world, and the operator of a humongous social-media says and does anti-Semitic things.
You've called out all kinds of folks here, from Scoopers, to college kids, to college professors, to politicians, to liberals in general, to Democrats in particular, to regular Joes, etc. But you can't bring yourself to call out this guy?
Huh.
Some folks in this thread have a problem. Even as they rail about anti-Semitism, they support - and in some cases borderline worship - anti-Semites. Not saying that's you; that's only for you to know.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2023, 11:16:01 AM
So, its ok to be antisemitic...if you're just a regular Joe, hey?
Simply stated, one can't be a fan of Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk and Donald Trump while also claiming to be revolted by anti-Semites.
Or I guess one can, but that would make one full of excrement.
I mean, do whatever you want - it's still a free country. Listen to the anti-Semite's rants on whatever his platform du jour is now, admire the anti-Semite auto/social media/spaceship mogul's business acumen, and vote for the politician who would have little chance to get elected without the vote of anti-Semites and other bigots (a vote he solicits both publicly and privately), but at least be honest about it.
Or don't. Pretend you're supporting Jews and Israel by calling out a few Scoopers even as you support powerful anti-Semites who actually can change the course of events.
Hey.
Whatever makes you feel like you're doing your part to combat antisemitism, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2023, 02:05:01 PM
Whatever makes you feel like you're doing your part to combat antisemitism, hey?
(https://i.imgflip.com/1otri4.jpg?a472272)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2023, 02:05:01 PM
Whatever makes you feel like you're doing your part to combat antisemitism, hey?
Holy irony, Batman. Not sure how to even respond, given how willing you've been to support anti-Semites. Though lawdog captured it pretty nicely.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2023, 01:32:27 PM
Simply stated, one can't be a fan of Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk and Donald Trump while also claiming to be revolted by anti-Semites.
I know its hard, but I don't think including Trump in there is germane to the growing anti-Semitism and its influence by public individuals theme. As mentioned before here by others, Trump is the biggest narcissist meglomaniac in the public sphere today. He has, and will always, be only about himself and who best can aid him at that moment. He has done things to benefit and behold himself to the Jewish population, and he's done things that can be viewed as anti-Semitic, mostly by not checking his supporters who engage in that sort of behavior. He's just an amoral chameleon of influence, not some vocal hater of Jews or other races. I certainly wouldn't call him a friend or champion of any of them, but he's certainly not like many who have shown themselves in the last month to openly revile the Jewish population.
Thats certainly not meant to be in support or defense of the man, but I think attaching him as the bogeyman to many issues just creates undue noise from the true issue.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 17, 2023, 02:47:57 PM
I know its hard, but I don't think including Trump in there is germane to the growing anti-Semitism and its influence by public individuals theme. As mentioned before here by others, Trump is the biggest narcissist meglomaniac in the public sphere today. He has, and will always, be only about himself and who best can aid him at that moment. He has done things to benefit and behold himself to the Jewish population, and he's done things that can be viewed as anti-Semitic, mostly by not checking his supporters who engage in that sort of behavior. He's just an amoral chameleon of influence, not some vocal hater of Jews or other races. I certainly wouldn't call him a friend or champion of any of them, but he's certainly not like many who have shown themselves in the last month to openly revile the Jewish population.
Thats certainly not meant to be in support or defense of the man, but I think attaching him as the bogeyman to many issues just creates undue noise from the true issue.
He accepts and curries support from anti-Semites, so I'm gonna disagree with you here, Wags.
One need not be a "vocal hater" to hurt the cause. He is not "the bogeyman," he simply is part of the problem. And the fact that he has a loud megaphone and significant power makes him more than a little part.
Oh, and the BOTUS, who tries to talk out of both sides of his mouth, not very successfully however, keeps the billions flowing to Iran and refuses to impose oil sanctions. And, this is who you've hooked your wagon onto...shameful, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2023, 02:59:28 PM
Oh, and the BOTUS, who tries to talk out of both sides of his mouth, not very successfully however, keeps the billions flowing to Iran and refuses to impose oil sanctions. And, this is who you've hooked your wagon onto...shameful, aina?
Moral of the story, all politicians suck. It's best not to show blind loyalty to any of them.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2023, 02:52:35 PM
He accepts and curries support from anti-Semites, so I'm gonna disagree with you here, Wags.
One need not be a "vocal hater" to hurt the cause. He is not "the bogeyman," he simply is part of the problem. And the fact that he has a loud megaphone and significant power makes him more than a little part.
He's just a pawn
Supposedly Musk really likes his Ketamine.
Something he has in common with *** (deleted due to chance for misinterpretation)
I won't even dignify you and your slanderous and feeble attempt at humor.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 17, 2023, 03:46:52 PM
Supposedly Musk really likes his Ketamine.
Something he has in common with our dentists huh
Apple quit advertising on X. Good for them not doing business with an anti-semite.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 17, 2023, 02:47:57 PM
I know its hard, but I don't think including Trump in there is germane to the growing anti-Semitism and its influence by public individuals theme. As mentioned before here by others, Trump is the biggest narcissist meglomaniac in the public sphere today. He has, and will always, be only about himself and who best can aid him at that moment. He has done things to benefit and behold himself to the Jewish population, and he's done things that can be viewed as anti-Semitic, mostly by not checking his supporters who engage in that sort of behavior. He's just an amoral chameleon of influence, not some vocal hater of Jews or other races. I certainly wouldn't call him a friend or champion of any of them, but he's certainly not like many who have shown themselves in the last month to openly revile the Jewish population.
Thats certainly not meant to be in support or defense of the man, but I think attaching him as the bogeyman to many issues just creates undue noise from the true issue.
This.
Trump is a whole lot of things, most of them bad. He likes anybody whom he thinks likes him. And like every politician he shrinks from alienating people who vote for him. Both Joe B and Trump are supported by "very fine people" who have spouted virulent antisemitic rhetoric. But neither are antisemites themselves. Mike looks at everything through such a prism of abject hatred re Trump that you can't take some of his rants seriously.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2023, 02:59:28 PM
Oh, and the BOTUS, who tries to talk out of both sides of his mouth, not very successfully however, keeps the billions flowing to Iran and refuses to impose oil sanctions. And, this is who you've hooked your wagon onto...shameful, aina?
Careful, Doc. You're approaching rocket and Heisey territory when it comes to inability to get facts straight.
Nov 15 (Reuters) - The United States will enforce oil sanctions against Iran amid the renewed conflict in the Middle East, President Joe Biden's energy security adviser Amos Hochstein told Bloomberg News on Wednesday.
"We are going to enforce those sanctions" Hochstein told Bloomberg News, in reference to what he said amounted to more than 1 million barrels a day of oil exports from Iran. "Those numbers will come down."
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-adviser-says-sanctions-will-bring-down-iran-oil-exports-bloomberg-news-2023-11-15/
Wow, some real false equivalency going on now.
Who is Biden's equivalent to Ms. Jewish Space Laser, Tucker, the Proud Boys and Putin? Tlaib? He repudiated her, and she criticized him.
One guy fomented a violent coup attempt against his own country; the other respects democracy and follows the Constitution.
They're practically twins!
"They're both awful" sure sounds like a convenient way to excuse the utterly repugnant words and deeds of the guy who's facing 91 felony charges - and, for the purposes of this thread, the guy who gladly accepts and solicits the support of raging anti-Semites. Not to mention the guy who mimicked Hitler's use of "vermin."
Quote from: Pakuni on November 17, 2023, 04:24:48 PM
Careful, Doc. You're approaching rocket and Heisey territory when it comes to inability to get facts straight.
Nov 15 (Reuters) - The United States will enforce oil sanctions against Iran amid the renewed conflict in the Middle East, President Joe Biden's energy security adviser Amos Hochstein told Bloomberg News on Wednesday.
"We are going to enforce those sanctions" Hochstein told Bloomberg News, in reference to what he said amounted to more than 1 million barrels a day of oil exports from Iran. "Those numbers will come down."
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-adviser-says-sanctions-will-bring-down-iran-oil-exports-bloomberg-news-2023-11-15/
and there you have it-reuters have anything about hamas and israel celebrating thanksgiving together too?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 17, 2023, 05:22:20 PM
and there you have it-reuters have anything about hamas and israel celebrating thanksgiving together too?
You're embarrassing yourself.
Bloomberg
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-15/biden-adviser-says-sanctions-will-bring-down-iran-oil-exports
Quote from: Pakuni on November 17, 2023, 05:54:45 PM
You're embarrassing yourself.
Bloomberg
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-15/biden-adviser-says-sanctions-will-bring-down-iran-oil-exports
Or maybe he is not, and you are (yet again).
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-09/why-the-us-can-t-stop-iran-s-lucrative-oil-trade-with-china
But fresh measures and tougher enforcement will struggle to curtail the Islamic Republic's key source of income — thanks to China's appetite for discounted crude, and what traders, analysts and oil industry executives describe as expanded payment and transport networks that the US cannot reach.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/business/china-oil-saudi-arabia-iran.html
China has also started buying more oil from Iran, a longtime backer of Hamas, the group behind the attack. China has more than tripled its imports of Iranian oil in the past two years and bought 87 percent of Iran's oil exports last month, according to Kpler, which specializes in tracking Iran's oil exports.
China has reaped savings this year of nearly $10 billion through record purchases of oil from countries under Western sanctions, according to Reuters' calculations based on data from traders and shiptrackers.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/china-saves-billions-dollars-record-sanctioned-oil-imports-2023-10-11/
An unintended consequence of sanctions imposed by the United States and others on Russia, Iran and Venezuela has been to lower the oil import costs for refiners in top economic rival China, which often criticises such "unilateral" penalties.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 17, 2023, 06:23:12 PM
Or maybe he is not, and you are (yet again)
In a stunning turn of events, Heisey posts off topic and misleading info, living up to his new name (yet again).
Quote from: Pakuni on November 17, 2023, 05:54:45 PM
You're embarrassing yourself.
I think he has proven this is impossible
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2023, 04:03:10 PM
Apple quit advertising on X. Good for them not doing business with an anti-semite.
Add The Mouse, Warner Bros., IBM...
Disney and other companies stop advertising on X as antisemitism crisis grows at Elon Musk's companyhttps://www.cnn.com/2023/11/17/tech/lionsgate-suspends-advertising-x-musk?cid=ios_app
The decision by two of the world's most prominent film and television companies suggests an intensifying advertiser backlash to X after the social media platform's owner, Elon Musk, embraced an antisemitic conspiracy theory popular among White supremacists.
Disney and Warner Bros.' advertising pauses follow similar moves by Lionsgate and IBM.
IBM's ads were found appearing alongside pro-Nazi content on the platform. In a statement, IBM explicitly called out what it described as an "entirely unacceptable situation."
Puma in talks to 10x their spend on X in support of recent anti-Semitic trends in honor of Rudolf Dessler's wishes
Bayer aspirin and Volkswagen are in talks to advertise more
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2023, 05:12:30 PM
Wow, some real false equivalency going on now.
Who is Biden's equivalent to Ms. Jewish Space Laser, Tucker, the Proud Boys and Putin? Tlaib? He repudiated her, and she criticized him.
One guy fomented a violent coup attempt against his own country; the other respects democracy and follows the Constitution.
They're practically twins!
"They're both awful" sure sounds like a convenient way to excuse the utterly repugnant words and deeds of the guy who's facing 91 felony charges - and, for the purposes of this thread, the guy who gladly accepts and solicits the support of raging anti-Semites. Not to mention the guy who mimicked Hitler's use of "vermin."
Mike
You're proving my point, sad to say (and I mean that). How do 91 felony charges, your opinion that he fomented a violent coup attempt, Tucker, Putin and the word vermin prove Trump is anti semitic? They're totally beside the point but you're so unhinged about the guy you can't see that.
Plenty of antisemites voted for Trump, plenty voted for Biden. How did college students vote in the last election? How about Muslims? It appears that there's more than a little antisemitism coming from those groups. And believe me, Joe was just as delighted to get his group's votes as Trump.
Tlaib (and others in her squad) have been antisemitic forever. They're Joe's allies and fellow party members. They supported him and worked hard for his election. He wasn't "repudiating" her/them then.
These are all political calculations made by guys trying to get elected. Nothing less, nothing more. Because of your hatred for Trump you can't see that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 17, 2023, 08:34:07 PM
How do 91 felony charges, your opinion that he fomented a violent coup attempt, Tucker, Putin and the word vermin prove Trump is anti semitic?
What I have said, repeatedly, is that he supports and solicits support from anti-Semites.
You might say, "That doesn't necessarily make him an anti-Semite," and we can choose to agree to disagree on that bit of semantics.
Or you can say that it's not true that he supports and solicits support from anti-Semites, and you'd be wrong. Because he obviously does.
Either way, he is part of the problem and not the solution.
But you're right ... him being a criminal defendant facing 91 felony charges, and him fomenting a violent coup attempt against America have nothing to do with him dining with neo-Nazis, kissing up to Putin and lauding Ms. Jewish Space Laser. They're just part of what makes him special.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 17, 2023, 03:49:57 PM
I won't even dignify you and your slanderous and feeble attempt at humor.
Snowflake much? Smh
Quote from: JWags85 on November 17, 2023, 07:28:57 PM
Puma in talks to 10x their spend on X in support of recent anti-Semitic trends in honor of Rudolf Dessler's wishes
I hear IBM has offered to keep their books
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 18, 2023, 03:16:36 AM
Snowflake much? Smh
Just gettin' in from a night of bar hoppin', hey?
All dumbass jokes aside, this is a pretty powerful message from someone in Gaza criticizing Hamas, Israel, and others enabling this violence alike. Would be good for those cheering on the bombings and violence to read.
https://x.com/alexjrowell/status/1725493490929250462?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 18, 2023, 03:27:23 AM
Just gettin' in from a night of bar hoppin', hey?
Nah I'm actually in Europe but I appreciate your hope that I am having a good time. Just finishing up a night of cruising Newsmax? It's late Doc!
Nah, its normal. Just heading out for my usual 10 miler at this time. Tanks for axin', hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 18, 2023, 03:27:35 AM
All dumbass jokes aside, this is a pretty powerful message from someone in Gaza criticizing Hamas, Israel, and others enabling this violence alike. Would be good for those cheering on the bombings and violence to read.
https://x.com/alexjrowell/status/1725493490929250462?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
This argues for proportionality in the response.
I've posted about this idea before, and it is the worst possible way to fight. Yet that is what we want, especially those wanting a ceasefire. That is a call for endless war leading to maximum death and pain.
The moral outcome is one side prevails. And to do that one side had to bring such an overwhelming force, such an unrelenting force, that the other side succumbs quickly.
This is why the Allies fire bombed Dresden and nuked Japanese citizens twice. It was the Allies saying stop Now, give up. And after these instances, and their horror, surrender was a few weeks later.
—
Sun Tzu, in this book "The Art of War," written in 500 BCE, argues when you go to war you have the bring overwhelming force to conquer the entire country as quickly as possible. And yes that means no proportionality.
——
When Has War Even Been 'Proportional?'
Israel's conventional disproportionality is proving more effective than the terrorist disproportionality of Hamas
https://amgreatness.com/2023/11/16/when-has-war-even-been-proportional/
Proportionality in war is a synonym for lethal stalemate, if not defeat.
When two sides go at it with roughly equal forces, weapons, and strategies, the result is often a horrific deadlock—like the four years of toxic trench warfare on the Western Front of World War I that resulted in 12 million fatalities.
The purpose of war is to defeat the enemy as quickly as possible with the least number of causalities—and thereby achieve political ends.
—
[Hamas'] unapologetic aim was to kill thousands of Israelis at random and disproportionately.
In fact, in just the last few four weeks, Hamas has launched more than twice as many rockets into Israel as Nazi Germany managed to launch V-2s into Britain in five months.
—
Hamas strives for a more disproportionate terrorist agenda to prolong the war. And Israel strives for a more disproportionate retaliation to end it.
The anger arises at Israel mostly because it is Jewish, and thus far its conventional disproportionality is proving more effective than the terrorist disproportionality of Hamas.
Elon champions free speech and blames big corporations as the biggest threats to free speech. No comment on if this applies to campuses.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/elon-musk-calls-advertisers-oppressors-050350791.html
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 18, 2023, 03:16:36 AM
Snowflake much? Smh
I don't know, it made me cringe, too. Doctors and drugs is a serious "joke" and it broke my soul when my cousin shot himself while on K at only 18. Some things are better left unsaid, and some things really hit a person deep. Doesn't mean someone is a snowflake.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 18, 2023, 08:32:57 AM
I don't know, it made me cringe, too. Doctors and drugs is a serious "joke" and it broke my soul when my cousin shot himself while on K at only 18. Some things are better left unsaid, and some things really hit a person deep. Doesn't mean someone is a snowflake.
The joke is that ketamine is used in dental procedures (and other conscious sedation procedures).
but I edited it to remove the reference to any specific profession or person. I apologize it was read like that and hope for nothing more like that to happen to you or your family.
I've had personal connections to those things as well, as have many of us.
That being said, compassion is a two way street aina?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 18, 2023, 07:25:52 AM
This argues for proportionality in the response.
I've posted about this idea before, and it is the worst possible way to fight. Yet that is what we want, especially those wanting a ceasefire. That is a call for endless war leading to maximum death and pain.
The moral outcome is one side prevails. And to do that one side had to bring such an overwhelming force, such an unrelenting force, that the other side succumbs quickly.
This is why the Allies fire bombed Dresden and nuked Japanese citizens twice. It was the Allies saying stop Now, give up. And after these instances, and their horror, surrender was a few weeks later.
—
Sun Tzu, in this book "The Art of War," written in 500 BCE, argues when you go to war you have the bring overwhelming force to conquer the entire country as quickly as possible. And yes that means no proportionality.
——
When Has War Even Been 'Proportional?'
Israel's conventional disproportionality is proving more effective than the terrorist disproportionality of Hamas
https://amgreatness.com/2023/11/16/when-has-war-even-been-proportional/
Proportionality in war is a synonym for lethal stalemate, if not defeat.
When two sides go at it with roughly equal forces, weapons, and strategies, the result is often a horrific deadlock—like the four years of toxic trench warfare on the Western Front of World War I that resulted in 12 million fatalities.
The purpose of war is to defeat the enemy as quickly as possible with the least number of causalities—and thereby achieve political ends.
—
[Hamas'] unapologetic aim was to kill thousands of Israelis at random and disproportionately.
In fact, in just the last few four weeks, Hamas has launched more than twice as many rockets into Israel as Nazi Germany managed to launch V-2s into Britain in five months.
—
Hamas strives for a more disproportionate terrorist agenda to prolong the war. And Israel strives for a more disproportionate retaliation to end it.
The anger arises at Israel mostly because it is Jewish, and thus far its conventional disproportionality is proving more effective than the terrorist disproportionality of Hamas.
I didn't read anything you said after the first sentence but I know it doesn't say that.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 18, 2023, 07:25:52 AM
This argues for proportionality in the response.
I've posted about this idea before, and it is the worst possible way to fight. Yet that is what we want, especially those wanting a ceasefire. That is a call for endless war leading to maximum death and pain.
The moral outcome is one side prevails. And to do that one side had to bring such an overwhelming force, such an unrelenting force, that the other side succumbs quickly.
This is why the Allies fire bombed Dresden and nuked Japanese citizens twice. It was the Allies saying stop Now, give up. And after these instances, and their horror, surrender was a few weeks later.
—
Sun Tzu, in this book "The Art of War," written in 500 BCE, argues when you go to war you have the bring overwhelming force to conquer the entire country as quickly as possible. And yes that means no proportionality.
——
When Has War Even Been 'Proportional?'
Israel's conventional disproportionality is proving more effective than the terrorist disproportionality of Hamas
https://amgreatness.com/2023/11/16/when-has-war-even-been-proportional/
Proportionality in war is a synonym for lethal stalemate, if not defeat.
When two sides go at it with roughly equal forces, weapons, and strategies, the result is often a horrific deadlock—like the four years of toxic trench warfare on the Western Front of World War I that resulted in 12 million fatalities.
The purpose of war is to defeat the enemy as quickly as possible with the least number of causalities—and thereby achieve political ends.
—
[Hamas'] unapologetic aim was to kill thousands of Israelis at random and disproportionately.
In fact, in just the last few four weeks, Hamas has launched more than twice as many rockets into Israel as Nazi Germany managed to launch V-2s into Britain in five months.
—
Hamas strives for a more disproportionate terrorist agenda to prolong the war. And Israel strives for a more disproportionate retaliation to end it.
The anger arises at Israel mostly because it is Jewish, and thus far its conventional disproportionality is proving more effective than the terrorist disproportionality of Hamas.
As I've said from Day 1 "proportiality" is utter fking nonsense. It's about disproportionality for all the reasons you listed above.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 18, 2023, 09:02:15 AM
As I've said from Day 1 "proportiality" is utter fking nonsense. It's about disproportionality for all the reasons you listed above.
Well that proves my point, thank you
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 18, 2023, 07:57:16 AM
Elon champions free speech and blames big corporations as the biggest threats to free speech. No comment on if this applies to campuses.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/elon-musk-calls-advertisers-oppressors-050350791.html
Yes, corporations choosing where to spend their ad dollars definitely suppresses other peoples' free speech. Yes, indeed.
That's what Ted Cruz says.
Couple this with the Economist I posted yesterday (above), and the impression given is this war might be close to being over.
---
A Seismic Victory in Gaza: Mapping the Tunnels of the "Gaza Metro"
https://realclearwire.com/articles/2023/11/16/a_seismic_victory_in_gaza_mapping_the_tunnels_of_the_gaza_metro_993093.html
Current seismic technology readily available from the oil field will allow identification (and then destruction) of these tunnels. Wireless Seismic METIS (Multiphysics Exploration Technology Integrated System) uses a seismic recording channel collected by autonomous drones. These drones also drop DART (Downfall Air Receiver Technology) receivers, i.e., geophones. The DARTs are dropped by the drone and impale themselves into the ground creating a system of geophones to model the subsurface data. This system was thoroughly evaluated in Papua New Guinea in 2018. Wireless Seismic News — METIS field test yields excellent results. A single drone dropped 60 DARTs in one hour and these drones recovered "real time seismic data" thereby imaging subsurface data of underground voids. Precision guided artillery shells could provide the seismic source needed for the geophones to collect subsurface data. The DART's would be dropped inside Gaza to model any location, i.e., not just locations close to where Israeli troops are located. Thus, METIS could accurately map the entire Gaza strip.
Once the location of the tunnels is known, they can be destroyed using deep penetrating bombs fused to detonate deep in the ground and dropped from aircraft. This could potentially interdict the entire system of tunnels. Even an extensive metro-like system of tunnels could be defeated if important chokepoints could be detected and collapsed.
Finally, this technology could resolve the ongoing factual dispute over whether Hamas has placed tunnels underneath hospitals, United Nations positions, schools, and other places that are protected from attack. While not a panacea, the METIS system could answer these basic questions and, potentially, turn Hama's tunnels into a death trap for fighters using the tunnels. At least, it would mitigate any asymmetric advantage Hama's tunnels provide.
Sacha Baron Cohen Slams TikTok: "Creating Biggest Antisemitic Movement Since the Nazis"
"Shame on you." A group of Jewish celebrities including Debra Messing and Amy Schumer had a confrontational call with executives for the popular social media app.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/sacha-baron-cohen-amy-schumer-jewish-celebrities-tiktok-antisemitism-1235657209/
A score of Jewish celebrities are criticizing TikTok following a surge of antisemitic rhetoric going viral on the social media app following Hamas' Oct. 7 terror attack on Israel, which has culminated in some young people supporting 9/11 terror leader Osama bin Laden.
According to The New York Times, more than 30 influential people — including Sacha Baron Cohen, Debra Messing and Amy Schumer — had an impassioned 90-minute video call with TikTok executives earlier in the week.
"What is happening at TikTok is it is creating the biggest antisemitic movement since the Nazis," Cohen declared on the call, according to a video of the exchange. "Shame on you." The Borat creator added that the service could "flip a switch" to silence such videos, and noted, "If you think back to Oct. 7, the reason why Hamas were able to behead young people and rape women was they were fed images from when they were small kids that led them to hate."
With Twitter doomed, what will anti-Semite Elon Musk lose money on next?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 18, 2023, 08:58:46 AM
The joke is that ketamine is used in dental procedures (and other conscious sedation procedures).
but I edited it to remove the reference to any specific profession or person. I apologize it was read like that and hope for nothing more like that to happen to you or your family.
I've had personal connections to those things as well, as have many of us.
That being said, compassion is a two way street aina?
Completely understand, thank you for your kind words, and I am certainly not alone.
I think compassion is a one way street. Give it.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 18, 2023, 03:02:33 PM
I think compassion is a one way street. Give it.
Well said.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 18, 2023, 03:02:33 PM
Completely understand, thank you for your kind words, and I am certainly not alone.
I think compassion is a one way street. Give it.
Sorry I think I meant "can be a two way street".
The hospital is almost empty and will be empty shortly.
----
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hundreds-of-patients-evacuate-gazas-largest-hospital-as-israel-tightens-grip-989df07e
120 patients had remained behind in the hospital along with five doctors, whose evacuation would be coordinated with the United Nations. Earlier in the week, Al-Shifa housed more than 650 patients, 500 medical staff and 5,000 displaced persons, according to the hospital director.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 18, 2023, 03:39:30 PM
Sorry I think I meant "can be a two way street".
No apology necessary, and totally hear you. It was really more of something I try to live by rather than a direct response to you.
Free speech advocates
https://x.com/whitedatenet/status/1725095887024644212?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 18, 2023, 04:21:23 PM
No apology necessary, and totally hear you. It was really more of something I try to live by rather than a direct response to you.
you're an amazing person 21...hopefully some of you may rub off on the seemingly ever angry plm
Anyone else notice that talk of Ukraine/Russia has almost entirely ended since Oct. 7th.
Quote from: forgetful on November 18, 2023, 07:32:17 PM
Anyone else notice that talk of Ukraine/Russia has almost entirely ended since Oct. 7th.
Why is that?
Did Israel tamper with al shifa evidence?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 18, 2023, 05:53:35 PM
you're an amazing person 21...hopefully some of you may rub off on the seemingly ever angry plm
Stay on topic, no need to be talking about rubbing off on me.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 18, 2023, 11:05:10 PM
Did Israel tamper with al shifa evidence?
They at least probably embellished it per the link below. Still too murky of a story to outright say they made a bunch of it up.
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-18-23/h_1d70c190adde686e6a2b59e963499e82
Hamas has command node under Al-Shifa hospital, US official says
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/politics/al-shifa-hospital-us-intelligence
He's just a pawn and so should be given a pass, but:
"After months in which Musk has supported racist rants; encouraged hate speech; elevated literal Nazi propaganda; fired every Twitter employee in Brazil on suspicion of being too liberal; fired the entire company press office and the entire company communications department; decimated the team responsible for content moderation; terrified advertisers with chaos, irresponsibility, and perpetuating racism; and thrown away global brand recognition by renaming the whole platform to indulge a personal whim, Musk has put his finger on the real issue.
It's the Jews."
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/9/5/2191588/-Elon-Musk-says-he-s-not-antisemitic-then-blames-Jews-for-destroying-X
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on November 19, 2023, 07:24:40 AM
He's just a pawn and so should be given a pass, but:
"After months in which Musk has supported racist rants; encouraged hate speech; elevated literal Nazi propaganda; fired every Twitter employee in Brazil on suspicion of being too liberal; fired the entire company press office and the entire company communications department; decimated the team responsible for content moderation; terrified advertisers with chaos, irresponsibility, and perpetuating racism; and thrown away global brand recognition by renaming the whole platform to indulge a personal whim, Musk has put his finger on the real issue.
It's the Jews."
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/9/5/2191588/-Elon-Musk-says-he-s-not-antisemitic-then-blames-Jews-for-destroying-X
He's a clear and present danger to Jewish people.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 19, 2023, 07:27:19 AM
He's a clear and present danger to Jewish people.
That's ridiculous, Unk. Everybody knows it's actually some 20-year-old pre-law student at Cornell who is the real danger.
Douchey, Doc and the rest of the Elon apologists aren't "interested" in Musk's antisemitism. He's just a pawn - the richest, most powerful pawn in the history of pawns.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 19, 2023, 02:44:42 AM
Stay on topic, no need to be talking about rubbing off on me.
Hah, very nearly what I said. Back to the war that needs to end.
Actually Nads, you're wrong. The real danger is the BOTUS who's advocatin' for a two state solution, aka talkin' outta both sides of his ass so as not to piss off all voters or his puppeteer, BO. It doesn't take a history PhD to know that will never be sustainable. Not when Palestinians willingly use their children as human shields, are suicide bombers, and find it a mitzvah to die for Allah, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neverforget
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2023, 08:07:30 AM
That's ridiculous, Unk. Everybody knows it's actually some 20-year-old pre-law student at Cornell who is the real danger.
Douchey, Doc and the rest of the Elon apologists aren't "interested" in Musk's antisemitism. He's just a pawn - the richest, most powerful pawn in the history of pawns.
Anyone driving a Tesla, I assume they're anti-semitic at this point.
It's pretty sad Elon gets a pass from some here. I'm glad they've revealed their anti-semitism for us
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 19, 2023, 08:17:38 AM
Anyone driving a Tesla, I assume they're anti-semitic at this point.
It's pretty sad Elon gets a pass from some here. I'm glad they've revealed their anti-semitism for us
Elon's just a pawn, dude. Not powerful or influential like a Harvard undergrad.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 19, 2023, 08:32:25 AM
Elon's just a pawn, dude. Not powerful or influential like a Harvard undergrad.
I suppose. As long as he keeps his anti-semitism towards Jewish people that don't act like the way I think Jewish people should
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 19, 2023, 08:15:36 AM
Actually Nads, you're wrong. The real danger is the BOTUS who's advocatin' for a two state solution, aka talkin' outta both sides of his ass so as not to piss off all voters or his puppeteer, BO. It doesn't take a history PhD to know that will never be sustainable. Not when Palestinians willingly use their children as human shields, are suicide bombers, and find it a mitzvah to die for Allah, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neverforget
Biden's op/ed in the Washington Post was right on. Hamas absolutely must be eliminated; and, down the road, a two-state solution is needed if there is ever to be any chance of peace in the region. He has been consistent on this, and the empathy and calm he brings to the situation has been welcome.
Thank goodness, the ex-president who surrounds himself with antisemites and who cares only about his own power, is no longer overseeing anything other than his own criminal defense.
But maybe he still can send Jared back into the Middle East to secure another $2B for himself.
Oh, and good deflection from Musk. On your list of your favorite antisemites, does he rank ahead of or behind Ms. Jewish Space Laser?
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2023, 08:41:27 AM
Biden's op/ed in the Washington Post was right on. Hamas absolutely must be eliminated; and, down the road, a two-state solution is needed if there is ever to be any chance of peace in the region. He has been consistent on this, and the empathy and calm he brings to the situation has been welcome.
Thank goodness, the ex-president who surrounds himself with antisemites and who cares only about his own power, is no longer overseeing anything other than his own criminal defense.
But maybe he still can send Jared back into the Middle East to secure another $2B for himself.
Oh, and good deflection from Musk. On your list of your favorite antisemites, does he rank ahead of or behind Ms. Jewish Space Laser?
Good post until your Trump Derangement Syndrome took hold. Give it a rest, man! We get it. (Hint: You did not need to write "Jewish Space Lasers" for the 984th time in a post.)
Meanwhile, a serious question. Who represents the Palestinians when negotiating a two-state solution?
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2023, 08:41:27 AM
Thank goodness, the ex-president who surrounds himself with antisemites and who cares only about his own power, is no longer overseeing anything other than his own criminal defense.
Funny thing, though. None of this shite ever happened when the bad man was president. But when the good man oversaw our disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, things changed. Enemies smelled weakness, confirmed when the good guy tried to make nice with China and Iran. So we ended up with war in Europe, war in the Middle East and the likelihood of war in Asia (Taiwan). Obama's Secretary of Defense warned us that nice guy Joe had never (in 30+ years) been on the correct side of any foreign policy decision but no biggie, right? He's a nice man and that's all that really matters. Sheesh.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2023, 09:02:58 AM
Funny thing, though. None of this crape ever happened when the bad man was president. But when the good man oversaw our disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, things changed. Enemies smelled weakness, confirmed when the good guy tried to make nice with China and Iran. So we ended up with war in Europe, war in the Middle East and the likelihood of war in Asia (Taiwan). Obama's Secretary of Defense warned us that nice guy Joe had never (in 30+ years) been on the correct side of any foreign policy decision but no biggie, right? He's a nice man and that's all that really matters. Sheesh.
You really think that all of this has to do with Biden's withdrawl from Afghanistan? That is a incredibly myopic view that is shaped way too much how one views American politics more than anything.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 19, 2023, 09:07:31 AM
You really think that all of this has to do with Biden's withdrawl from Afghanistan? That is a incredibly myopic view that is shaped way too much how one views American politics more than anything.
Everything goes back to BOTUS, duh
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 19, 2023, 08:49:07 AM
Meanwhile, a serious question. Who represents the Palestinians when negotiating a two-state solution?
That is a serious question. I do not know enough about the situation to have a serious answer.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2023, 09:02:58 AM
Funny thing, though. None of this crape ever happened when the bad man was president.
I mean, Covid overtook America while the bad man was president. Therefore - funny thing - he is responsible for that crape, right? Also, racial intolerance and white supremacism in America grew exponentially while the bad man was president. Therefore - funny thing - he is responsible for that crape, right?
Look, the current president is a bazillion miles from perfect and has his own problems. Thankfully, only caring about enhancing his own power, wealth and stature - to the detriment of our democratic republic - is not one of those problems.
So yes, if I am to choose between a flawed horrible human being and a flawed decent man, I'll go with the latter. Others are free to choose the one who wants to be America's dictator and who, like Hitler, calls his enemies "vermin." I'll choose the one who condemns the plague of antisemitism; others are free to choose the one who, to the delight of white supremacists everywhere, said there were some "very fine people" marching with torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us!"
At least for now, all of us have that freedom of choice.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 19, 2023, 09:07:31 AM
You really think that all of this has to do with Biden's withdrawl from Afghanistan? That is a incredibly myopic view that is shaped way too much how one views American politics more than anything.
The irony here is that while Biden deserves plenty of blame for the execution of the withdrawal, disaster was assured by the previous guy getting outsmarted by the Taliban more than a year earlier.
Lenny is curiously silent on that part.
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2023, 09:21:46 AM
That is a serious question. I do not know enough about the situation to have a serious answer.
This is a huge problem, and why calls for a two-state solution sound good in theory but are impossible in practice.
All the Palestinians have for leadership right now are terrorist groups (Hamas, PIJ, Hezbollah) that are committed to a one-state solution or the destruction of Israel.
Or a very weak Palestinian Authority run by the head of the Fatah party, Mahmoud Abbas, who is 88 years old, has not had an election since 2006 and is deeply unpopular. When he dies, the PA might effectively disappear like the PLO did when Yassir Arafat died.
To anticipate a question, no, the UN cannot negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians. The UN created the state of Isreal in 1948 and initially proposed a two-state solution that was rejected, and the war started immediately.
So, Palestinians will never accept any two-state solution from the UN ... again. Besides, who is the Palestinian leadership that would accept a brokered deal from the UN? Back to the original question.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2023, 09:02:58 AM
Funny thing, though. None of this crape ever happened when the bad man was president. But when the good man oversaw our disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, things changed. Enemies smelled weakness, confirmed when the good guy tried to make nice with China and Iran. So we ended up with war in Europe, war in the Middle East and the likelihood of war in Asia (Taiwan). Obama's Secretary of Defense warned us that nice guy Joe had never (in 30+ years) been on the correct side of any foreign policy decision but no biggie, right? He's a nice man and that's all that really matters. Sheesh.
"Trump was better than Biden on foreign policy".
Holy unnatural carnal knowledge
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 18, 2023, 11:05:10 PM
Did Israel tamper with al shifa evidence?
I'm not going to make any decisions on overall evidence tampering yet, as it is too early.
But they certainly have completely bungled this from a PR perspective.
Guns clearly being moved as PLM posted.
But also, in one of their previous videos, they claimed they found a Hamas hostage guard schedule with the Hamas terrorists names on it. Analysts of the video showed that the "Hamas terrorists names" were actually the days of the week, and it was just a calendar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTcEL1BQ2qc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTcEL1BQ2qc) From France 24 news.
Also, the DVDs full of Intelligence they found next to a laptop. People have pointed out that model of laptop does not have a DVD drive.
These types of errors in presentation although not necessarily nefarious, are at the very least careless and will contribute to more anger/problems and distrust regarding any additional intel.
I do find it troubling that after 5-days, they have provided no evidence of a command/control center under Al Shifa.
At the very least this suggests that they had no intel on "where it was."
At worst, they were duped. They know there are extensive tunnels/command infrastructure from when they built it in 1983, and they knew Hamas was using it at least as recent as 2014. I at least partially fear that they were duped by captured Hamas terrorists who said they were still in use during interrogations.
I think they legitimately believed Hamas was using the site, but it is starting to look like they were wrong. Let's see how this plays out.
Quote from: forgetful on November 19, 2023, 10:03:10 AM
I'm not going to make any decisions on overall evidence tampering yet, as it is too early.
But they certainly have completely bungled this from a PR perspective.
Guns clearly being moved as PLM posted.
But also, in one of their previous videos, they claimed they found a Hamas hostage guard schedule with the Hamas terrorists names on it. Analysts of the video showed that the "Hamas terrorists names" were actually the days of the week, and it was just a calendar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTcEL1BQ2qc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTcEL1BQ2qc) From France 24 news.
Also, the DVDs full of Intelligence they found next to a laptop. People have pointed out that model of laptop does not have a DVD drive.
These types of errors in presentation although not necessarily nefarious, are at the very least careless and will contribute to more anger/problems and distrust regarding any additional intel.
I do find it troubling that after 5-days, they have provided no evidence of a command/control center under Al Shifa.
At the very least this suggests that they had no intel on "where it was."
At worst, they were duped. They know there are extensive tunnels/command infrastructure from when they built it in 1983, and they knew Hamas was using it at least as recent as 2014. I at least partially fear that they were duped by capture Hamas terrorists who said they were still in use during interrogations.
I think they legitimately believed Hamas was using the site, but it is starting to look like they were wrong. Let's see how this plays out.
Israel can never win from a PR perspective. This has always been obvious and was obvious less than 24 hrs after the murders.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 10:25:19 AM
Israel can never win from a PR perspective. This has always been obvious and was obvious less than 24 hrs after the murders.
I think they were clearly winning the PR battle from the beginning, and may still be winning the PR battle, but it has shifted substantially.
Errors like this in their reporting are really not helping that PR battle.
But in all honesty, the PR battle is harder for them to win the longer this lasts. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not follow conventional methods or rules. Fighting them is going to involve ugly events, that will reflect poorly on a government. They are in a bit of a lose lose situation, which is why these PR reports need to be handled perfectly.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 10:25:19 AM
Israel can never win from a PR perspective. This has always been obvious and was obvious less than 24 hrs after the murders.
Correct
And what will happen if Israel and the United States are wrong (aka fog of war)? They will re-open the hospital, as they never bombed it despite the thousands of claims they have. They will restock it with supplies and use it to treat civilians under their security.
Also, regarding "tampering of evidence." This is a war, not a crime scene. They are not calling in the FBI or Interpol. Only when the hospital is empty can they go into the tunnels under it (which Foregful admitted exist in an earlier post) and find out what is in them.
Are any of you concerned about the well-being of the hostages or the Israeli soldiers potentially taking on murderous terrorists in these tunnels? I see precisely zero posts about this.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 19, 2023, 10:38:45 AM
Correct
And what will happen if Israel and the United States are wrong (aka fog of war)? They will re-open the hospital, as they never bombed it despite the thousands of claims they have. They will restock it with supplies and use it to treat civilians under their security.
Also, regarding "tampering of evidence." This is a war, not a crime scene. They are not calling in the FBI or Interpol. Only when the hospital is empty can they go into the tunnels under it (which Foregful admitted exist in an earlier post) and find out what is in them.
Are any of you concerned about the well-being of the hostages or the Israeli soldiers potentially taking on murderous terrorists in these tunnels? I see precisely zero posts about this.
I'm concerned about a lot of things including tbe hostages and tunnels. That doesn't change the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah, all the Iranian proxies, and Iran's leadership should be completely destroyed.
Sorry. I meant this reply for Fluffy.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 18, 2023, 05:53:35 PM
you're an amazing person 21...hopefully some of you may rub off on the seemingly ever angry plm
Thanks, Rocket, I appreciate you. Having said that, I do sometimes want to enact Muggs' five/six point plan on some of my fellow automobile drivers. We all have our crap, Rocket, all of us.
Quote from: forgetful on November 19, 2023, 10:32:31 AM
I think they were clearly winning the PR battle from the beginning, and may still be winning the PR battle, but it has shifted substantially.
Errors like this in their reporting are really not helping that PR battle.
But in all honesty, the PR battle is harder for them to win the longer this lasts. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not follow conventional methods or rules. Fighting them is going to involve ugly events, that will reflect poorly on a government. They are in a bit of a lose lose situation, which is why these PR reports need to be handled perfectly.
When you say "the beginning" do you mean the first few hours after the massacre? Congratulations to the fking media. I agree the longer it lasts, the worse it will be for everyone.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 11:55:27 AM
When you say "the beginning" do you mean the first few hours after the massacre? Congratulations to the fking media. I agree the longer it lasts, the worse it will be for everyone.
Having anti-semites in the media like Elon and Tucker are a detriment to Israel and Jewish people
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 19, 2023, 12:07:49 PM
Having anti-semites in the media like Elon and Tucker are a detriment to Israel and Jewish people
Anti-Semites on ALL sides are a significant problem. Many Harvard profs have looked terrible after the President made a statement condemning the Jewish hatred at the protests.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 12:26:49 PM
Anti-Semites on ALL sides are a significant problem. Many Harvard profs have looked terrible after the President made a statement condemning the Jewish hatred at the protests.
Can't we just agree to hate all religious people equally?
The new Sam Harris podcast is worth a listen. He chats with Yuval Noah Harari, Israeli author of Sapiens. I'm about halfway in or so, and it's already been thought provoking and smartly discussed and presented.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 19, 2023, 12:07:49 PM
Having anti-semites in the media like Elon and Tucker are a detriment to Israel and Jewish people
Where's Ackman now? He can bash (and dox) kids who say stupid things on college campuses, but he's silent on Elon's anti semetic posts? WTF, grow a pair Bill.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on November 19, 2023, 04:50:57 PM
Where's Ackman now? He can bash (and dox) kids who say stupid things on college campuses, but he's silent on Elon's anti semetic posts? WTF, grow a pair Bill.
Tweeted yesterday
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1725898682438979972?s=20
@elonmusk is not an antisemite. I agree with @benshapiro's assessment of the situation.
It is remarkable how quickly the world stands ready to attack Musk for his shoot from the hip commentary.
Musk is not perfect, but the world is a vastly better place because of him.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1725702681530945687?s=20
Quote from: SoCalEagle on November 19, 2023, 04:50:57 PM
Where's Ackman now? He can bash (and dox) kids who say stupid things on college campuses, but he's silent on Elon's anti semetic posts? WTF, grow a pair Bill.
Busy defending and giving money to Elon.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 19, 2023, 05:06:56 PM
Tweeted yesterday
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1725898682438979972?s=20
@elonmusk is not an antisemite. I agree with @benshapiro's assessment of the situation.
It is remarkable how quickly the world stands ready to attack Musk for his shoot from the hip commentary.
Musk is not perfect, but the world is a vastly better place because of him.
No it is not.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 19, 2023, 05:06:56 PM
Tweeted yesterday
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1725898682438979972?s=20
@elonmusk is not an antisemite. I agree with @benshapiro's assessment of the situation.
It is remarkable how quickly the world stands ready to attack Musk for his shoot from the hip commentary.
Musk is not perfect, but the world is a vastly better place because of him.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1725702681530945687?s=20
It's incredible, but completely predictable, that you would be hypocritical here.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 19, 2023, 05:06:56 PM
Tweeted yesterday
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1725898682438979972?s=20
@elonmusk is not an antisemite. I agree with @benshapiro's assessment of the situation.
It is remarkable how quickly the world stands ready to attack Musk for his shoot from the hip commentary.
Musk is not perfect, but the world is a vastly better place because of him.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1725702681530945687?s=20
Perfect. Twist into a pretzel to justify and/or overlook the obvious, overt antisemitism of the rich, powerful "pawn" ... but be sure to attack powerless, dopey college kids. Just as several Scoopers have done.
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2023, 05:13:33 PM
Perfect. Twist into a pretzel to justify and/or overlook the obvious, overt antisemitism of the rich, powerful "pawn" ... but be sure to attack powerless, dopey college kids. Just as several Scoopers have done.
I'm glad I have him on ignore now. Ridiculous to defend Musk here.
Chef's kisses!
Do people think musk will give them some of his money if they breathlessly defend him at all times? I don't get it.
He's a guy who pushed forward a lot of technology and products but that doesn't mean he isn't an unfunny faux edgy half troll.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 19, 2023, 01:15:02 PM
Can't we just agree to hate all religious people equally?
It's probably a separate discussion but I don't get the impression the main reason forJew hatred is religious in nature today. I feel it's more about a minority group being inordinately successful. It's freaking crazy imo. If anything they should be showered with praise and admiration for persevering and making tremendous contributions to the world. I think most people have no idea and would be shocked at how small the Jewish population is worldwide.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 05:24:28 PM
It's probably a separate discussion but I don't get the impression the main reason forJew hatred is religious in nature today. I feel it's more about a minority group being inordinately successful. It's freaking crazy imo. If anything they should be showered with praise and admiration for persevering and making tremendous contributions to the world. I think most people have no idea and would be shocked at how small the Jewish population is worldwide.
A lot of the anti-semitism can be rooted into two groups.
1) Far-right groups. These are definitely motivated by religion, and the hatred for Jewish people is ancient. It stems from religious beliefs that the Jews were responsible for Jesus' crucifixion, and later a refusal to convert to Christianity.
A quote from Martin Luther after he was angered that they would not convert: "Their synagogues... should be set on fire, and what does not burn must be covered over with earth so that no man will ever see stone or cinder of them again," he said. "Their houses also should be razed and destroyed.... All their prayer books... should be taken from them."
https://www.ajc.org/news/understanding-the-origins-of-antisemitism (https://www.ajc.org/news/understanding-the-origins-of-antisemitism)
2) Some Muslim groups. These are also definitely motivated by religion, but more recently really a reaction to Israel.
There are other reasons obviously. But the primary ones are religious in origin.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 19, 2023, 05:23:45 PM
Do people think musk will give them some of his money if they breathlessly defend him at all times? I don't get it.
He's a guy who pushed forward a lot of technology and products but that doesn't mean he isn't an unfunny faux edgy half troll.
He's got issues, but this really isn't about that.
In this particular case, Musk has been overtly antisemitic ... except to those who want to excuse or justify it. It's similar to protecting their favorite politicians.
Meanwhile, those same people will scream "ANTISEMITE!" at college kids, celebrities, CEOs, non-favorite politicians, fellow Scoopers or anybody else who disagrees with them.
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 19, 2023, 05:06:56 PM
Tweeted yesterday
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1725898682438979972?s=20
@elonmusk is not an antisemite. I agree with @benshapiro's assessment of the situation.
It is remarkable how quickly the world stands ready to attack Musk for his shoot from the hip commentary.
Musk is not perfect, but the world is a vastly better place because of him.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1725702681530945687?s=20
Fuckin lol
A wise man and former boss once told me he who speaks most ends up the biggest bleep-hole. The fact is, 100% one way or another is dangerous and not only ignores nuance but actively dismisses a vast number of people and perspectives as irrelevant and unimportant.
Elon Musk is clearly an antisemite as it has been categorized here in Scoop. Is he? I don't have any idea.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 19, 2023, 05:42:26 PM
unnatural carnal knowledgein lol
"Shoot from the hip commentary" means it wasn't well thought out antisemitism, it was just haphazard antisemitism. Which he then repeated. Again and again.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 19, 2023, 09:07:31 AM
You really think that all of this has to do with Biden's withdrawl from Afghanistan? That is a incredibly myopic view that is shaped way too much how one views American politics more than anything.
I think that and his stance on the border and energy production (both national security issues) were the beginning. Then came his decisions to try to cozy up to Iran and China. Put 'em in a blender....and Gates looks prescient.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2023, 07:00:19 PM
I think that and his stance on the border and energy production (both national security issues) were the beginning. Then came his decisions to try to cozy up to Iran and China. Put 'em in a blender....and Gates looks prescient.
LOL....the border lead to this??? Are you sure you're not a dentist?
No question that the world perceives the U.S. as weak militarily and vulnerable with a puppet fixated on stuffing his pockets, hey?
#peacethrustrength
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 19, 2023, 07:06:43 PM
No question that the world perceives the U.S. as weak militarily and vulnerable with a puppet fixated on stuffing his pockets, hey?
LOL...boomers are so damn hopeless.
Jonathan Greenblatt, the CEO of the ADL, praised Musk in a tweet Friday for helping to fight antisemitism.
https://x.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1725652667119092100?s=20
This is an important and welcome move by @elonmusk. I appreciate this leadership in fighting hate.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1725645884409401435?s=20
As I said earlier this week, "decolonization", "from the river to the sea" and similar euphemisms necessarily imply genocide.
Clear calls for extreme violence are against our terms of service and will result in suspension.
Quote from: forgetful on November 19, 2023, 05:37:16 PM
A lot of the anti-semitism can be rooted into two groups.
1) Far-right groups. These are definitely motivated by religion, and the hatred for Jewish people is ancient. It stems from religious beliefs that the Jews were responsible for Jesus' crucifixion, and later a refusal to convert to Christianity.
A quote from Martin Luther after he was angered that they would not convert: "Their synagogues... should be set on fire, and what does not burn must be covered over with earth so that no man will ever see stone or cinder of them again," he said. "Their houses also should be razed and destroyed.... All their prayer books... should be taken from them."
https://www.ajc.org/news/understanding-the-origins-of-antisemitism (https://www.ajc.org/news/understanding-the-origins-of-antisemitism)
2) Some Muslim groups. These are also definitely motivated by religion, but more recently really a reaction to Israel.
There are other reasons obviously. But the primary ones are religious in origin.
What about far-left groups? None of them are antisemitic?
Double chef's kisses
Truly incredible stuff
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2023, 09:02:58 AM
Funny thing, though. None of this crape ever happened when the bad man was president. But when the good man oversaw our disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, things changed. Enemies smelled weakness, confirmed when the good guy tried to make nice with China and Iran. So we ended up with war in Europe, war in the Middle East and the likelihood of war in Asia (Taiwan). Obama's Secretary of Defense warned us that nice guy Joe had never (in 30+ years) been on the correct side of any foreign policy decision but no biggie, right? He's a nice man and that's all that really matters. Sheesh.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on November 19, 2023, 01:31:54 PM
The new Sam Harris podcast is worth a listen. He chats with Yuval Noah Harari, Israeli author of Sapiens. I'm about halfway in or so, and it's already been thought provoking and smartly discussed and presented.
I put these together because Harari's focus is generally on the importance of defending and upholding an international order based on liberal values. (I agree its a great listen and though I generally like Harris, I wish he would have let Harari cook.)
I think there are two primary metrics to judge an administration's forign policy - consistency and execution. While interrelated, we often mistake a criticism of one for the other. For example, the Afghanistan withdrawal was incompetent- a failure in execution. There is a valid debate about whether that debacle precludes giving Biden a good score in that category, even though the implementation of the rest of his agenda has been (imo and in Harari's) generally solid. Biden is also far less dovish than generally assumed. He and Obama were both far more willing to exercise US military power than the right give them credit for - Obama with drone strikes and Biden with military support and repositioning carriers in response to the Ukraine invasion and attack on Israel.
What steams me about the characterization of Trump's foreign policy as deterrent through strength is that it mistakes inconsistency and unpredictability for strength. To the extent Trump's foreign policy positions had a chilling effect on enemy aggression, it wasn't because he exerted strength. It was because he was a chimp with a gun. No one anywhere looked at Trump and said "there is a guy not to be messed with because he will respond strongly." They looked at him and said "holy crap he might do anything." Inconsistency and unpredictability
can be an effective international strategy, but not in the hands of the preeminent world power. Wielded by the US, to the extent that unpredictability lends to a short term pause in aggressive behavior, its at the cost of long term liberal order of the type Harari describes. Its not a sustainable international modus operandi.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 07:29:48 PM
What about far-left groups? None of them are antisemitic?
See the last line of my post. No where did I say no far-left groups are antisemitic.
Only said the primary drivers are religious and gave the two primary religious drivers.
Quote from: forgetful on November 19, 2023, 07:39:56 PM
See the last line of my post. No where did I say no far-left groups are antisemitic.
Only said the primary drivers are religious and gave the two primary religious drivers.
You conveniently omitted those that are antisemitic whose hatred has nothing to do with religion. I disagree that the primary drivers of antisemitism in the USA today are religious.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 08:02:09 PM
You conveniently omitted those that are antisemitic whose hatred has nothing to do with religion. I disagree that the primary drivers of antisemitism in the USA today are religious.
Of course they are religious.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 19, 2023, 07:12:45 PM
LOL...boomers are so damn hopeless.
Didn't you know? Obama is really the President. SMH.
Proof they will believe *anything*.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 08:02:09 PM
You conveniently omitted those that are antisemitic whose hatred has nothing to do with religion. I disagree that the primary drivers of antisemitism in the USA today are religious.
Studies of left-leaning young Americans suggest those that are anti-semitic the origins are also based in religion.
1) They tend to be more likely to side with Palestinians in the Palestine/Israel war. For these groups, where anti-semitism is present, they typically hold Jewish people responsible for Israeli actions.
2) They have a distain for religion-based bad actors. They are equally likely to hold Catholics responsible for bad actions by the Vatican, as they are holding Jewish people responsible for bad actions by Israel.
Many of these people have a general belief that religion causes many of the worlds ills. So they are still religion based.
I focused on the other ones, because those are the two largest groups with widespread anti-semitism.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 19, 2023, 07:18:30 PM
Jonathan Greenblatt, the CEO of the ADL, praised Musk in a tweet Friday for helping to fight antisemitism.
https://x.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1725652667119092100?s=20
This is an important and welcome move by @elonmusk. I appreciate this leadership in fighting hate.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1725645884409401435?s=20
As I said earlier this week, "decolonization", "from the river to the sea" and similar euphemisms necessarily imply genocide.
Clear calls for extreme violence are against our terms of service and will result in suspension.
Wait ... I thought Musk didn't "interest" you.
He's an antisemite, but go ahead and pretend otherwise.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2023, 07:00:19 PM
I think that and his stance on the border and energy production (both national security issues) were the beginning. Then came his decisions to try to cozy up to Iran and China. Put 'em in a blender....and Gates looks prescient.
Wow, Tony - lots of BDS in your posts lately. You're better than that!
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 19, 2023, 07:29:48 PM
What about far-left groups? None of them are antisemitic?
Are you still silly posting. Muggsy, you're so much better than this, man. C'mon, think it through before you post.
Peace, bro.
Quote from: forgetful on November 19, 2023, 08:16:05 PM
Studies of left-leaning young Americans suggest those that are anti-semitic the origins are also based in religion.
1) They tend to be more likely to side with Palestinians in the Palestine/Israel war. For these groups, where anti-semitism is present, they typically hold Jewish people responsible for Israeli actions.
2) They have a distain for religion-based bad actors. They are equally likely to hold Catholics responsible for bad actions by the Vatican, as they are holding Jewish people responsible for bad actions by Israel.
Many of these people have a general belief that religion causes many of the worlds ills. So they are still religion based.
I focused on the other ones, because those are the two largest groups with widespread anti-semitism.
Why don't they have the same amount of disdain for Muslims acting in the name of Islam?
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
Julianna Margulies: My non-Jewish friends, your silence on antisemitism is loud
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/11/20/antisemitism-jewish-experience-israel-hamas-war/71518720007/
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 07:38:01 AM
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
Julianna Margulies: My non-Jewish friends, your silence on antisemitism is loud
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/11/20/antisemitism-jewish-experience-israel-hamas-war/71518720007/
I agree with her. They need to call out Tucker Carlson and Elon Musk, too
So the Palestinian Authority is claiming that Israel was behind the Oct 7th massacre? Not Hamas?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 07:38:01 AM
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
Julianna Margulies: My non-Jewish friends, your silence on antisemitism is loud
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/11/20/antisemitism-jewish-experience-israel-hamas-war/71518720007/
Your silence on Greene, Gosar, Carlson, and Musk is deafening. When are you going to call them out?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 07:38:01 AM
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
Julianna Margulies: My non-Jewish friends, your silence on antisemitism is loud
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/11/20/antisemitism-jewish-experience-israel-hamas-war/71518720007/
100%, Doc.
I'm hoping you will do what she says and call out all antisemitism - even if it means ending your support for antisemites (and those who give aid and comfort to antisemites) who in the past you have liked.
See, that's the hard part. It's easy for you to say, "Tlaib is an antisemite!" or "Liberal professors are antisemities!" You hated them anyway. Anybody can criticize and reject any association to those they dislike.
When it comes to Tucker, Musk, MTG, Trump and others ... let's see you not only talk the talk but walk the walk. Disavowing antisemites you have supported and/or admired in the past, that's a lot more difficult, and it takes both honesty and courage.
You can do it!
Amnesty International in 2015
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict
As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient's clinic within the grounds of Gaza City's main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of "collaboration" died in custody.
"Hamas forces have displayed a disregard for the most fundamental rules of international humanitarian law. Torture and cruel treatment of detainees in an armed conflict is a war crime. Extrajudicial executions are also war crimes. The de facto administration in Gaza must send a message to all law enforcement forces to treat prisoners humanely at all times. All allegations of extrajudicial execution and torture must be impartially and independently investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice in fair trials," said Philip Luther.
-----
The Hospital is a military target because Hamas turned it into a military target.
The way the IDF has handled this hospital has been the most humane way an attacking force has ever dealt with a hospital turned into a military target in the history of military warfare.
Let me remind you how hospitals are handled when they become military targets. And let me also remind you that no one cared. Not one post about this here.
No one even cared when the US military was uninterested in even doing an investigation of why they bombed a hospital. Only an "assessment" to figure out how many ISIS fighters were killed—sorry civilians.
---
December 2016 in Mosel, Iraq
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/12/09/us-military-admits-we-deliberately-bombed-hospital-iraq
US Military Admits: We Deliberately Bombed a Hospital in Iraq
Military spokesperson says "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that no civilians were killed
The attack on the Al Salam hospital complex took place Wednesday at the request of Iraqi forces, with coalition aircraft using "precision-guided munitions," Air Force Col. John Dorrian, spokesperson for the U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, told reporters.
He said "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that there were no civilian casualties, whether in the building targeted or elsewhere within the hospital complex.
ISIS fighters, Dorrian said, "were using the facility to fire heavy machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades at the Iraqi security forces in the area." The strike on the "normally protected facility" allowed the Iraqi forces "to fall back to a more defensible position," he said.
The "protection of civilians," he said later in the press conference, "has been a centerpiece, a foundational element of the campaign to liberate Mosul."
The military is not carrying out an investigation but rather an "assessment" of the strike, the spokesperson added.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 20, 2023, 08:07:33 AM
So the Palestinian Authority is claiming that Israel was behind the Oct 7th massacre? Not Hamas?
Pretty sure it was antifa. Or FBI plants.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 20, 2023, 08:18:56 AM
Amnesty International in 2015
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict
As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient's clinic within the grounds of Gaza City's main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of "collaboration" died in custody.
"Hamas forces have displayed a disregard for the most fundamental rules of international humanitarian law. Torture and cruel treatment of detainees in an armed conflict is a war crime. Extrajudicial executions are also war crimes. The de facto administration in Gaza must send a message to all law enforcement forces to treat prisoners humanely at all times. All allegations of extrajudicial execution and torture must be impartially and independently investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice in fair trials," said Philip Luther.
-----
The Hospital is a military target because Hamas turned it into a military target.
The way the IDF has handled this hospital has been the most humane way an attacking force has ever dealt with a hospital turned into a military target in the history of military warfare.
Let me remind you how hospitals are handled when they become military targets. And let me also remind you that no one cared. Not one post about this here.
No one even cared when the US military was uninterested in even doing an investigation of why they bombed a hospital. Only an "assessment" to figure out how many ISIS fighters were killed—sorry civilians.
---
December 2016 in Mosel, Iraq
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/12/09/us-military-admits-we-deliberately-bombed-hospital-iraq
US Military Admits: We Deliberately Bombed a Hospital in Iraq
Military spokesperson says "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that no civilians were killed
The attack on the Al Salam hospital complex took place Wednesday at the request of Iraqi forces, with coalition aircraft using "precision-guided munitions," Air Force Col. John Dorrian, spokesperson for the U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, told reporters.
He said "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that there were no civilian casualties, whether in the building targeted or elsewhere within the hospital complex.
ISIS fighters, Dorrian said, "were using the facility to fire heavy machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades at the Iraqi security forces in the area." The strike on the "normally protected facility" allowed the Iraqi forces "to fall back to a more defensible position," he said.
The "protection of civilians," he said later in the press conference, "has been a centerpiece, a foundational element of the campaign to liberate Mosul."
The military is not carrying out an investigation but rather an "assessment" of the strike, the spokesperson added.
I think it is shameful we bombed a hospital in Iraq. I think it is shameful we were ever in Iraq to begin with.
Quote from: MU82 on November 20, 2023, 08:24:22 AM
Pretty sure it was antifa. Or FBI plants.
Well I thought originally he condemned Hamas. I suppose I can amend my 5 pt. plan.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 20, 2023, 08:25:24 AM
I think it is shameful we bombed a hospital in Iraq. I think it is shameful we were ever in Iraq to begin with.
Yep, using what happened in Iraq to try to validate ones position is not helping.
Also this quote from Douchey:
The way the IDF has handled this hospital has been the most humane way an attacking force has ever dealt with a hospital turned into a military target in the history of military warfare.
Not sure where he gets that data.
That being said, none of us know all of the details in re al-Shifa.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 20, 2023, 08:31:13 AM
That being said, none of us know all of the details in re al-Shifa.
Douchey does!
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 20, 2023, 08:07:33 AM
So the Palestinian Authority is claiming that Israel was behind the Oct 7th massacre? Not Hamas?
While it doesn't change the take home message that claiming Hamas was not responsible for Oct. 7th is ridiculous, you greatly mischaracterized what the PA said.
I haven't found the original statement (if you have it, link it), but what I did find was them referencing an Israeli news article indicating police fired on terrorists from helicopters and may have killed some of the festival goers. The thing you are referencing regarding the PA was them calling attention to this report, that they then used to blame Israel for festival deaths.
Still a bad look for the PA, but accurately reporting their bad looks is important.
Quote from: MU82 on November 20, 2023, 08:18:14 AM
100%, Doc.
I'm hoping you will do what she says and call out all antisemitism - even if it means ending your support for antisemites (and those who give aid and comfort to antisemites) who in the past you have liked.
See, that's the hard part. It's easy for you to say, "Tlaib is an antisemite!" or "Liberal professors are antisemities!" You hated them anyway. Anybody can criticize and reject any association to those they dislike.
When it comes to Tucker, Musk, MTG, Trump and others ... let's see you not only talk the talk but walk the walk. Disavowing antisemites you have supported and/or admired in the past, that's a lot more difficult, and it takes both honesty and courage.
You can do it!
So, the BOTUS gave $10 bbbbillion to Iran in addition to the $6 bbbbillion, which btw he never froze ( maybe it'll happen when hell freezes over) and continues to talk outta both cheeks panderin' to da liberal Jewish voting block and Arabs alike. Oh, and he publicly wants Gaza to be governed by the Palestinians (lol). Hope his birthday is as chitty as he's made life for others as Crooked Joe lines his family's pockets, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 09:05:37 AM
So, the BOTUS gave $10 bbbbillion to Iran in addition to the $6 bbbbillion, which btw he never froze ( maybe it'll happen when hell freezes over) and continues to talk outta both cheeks panderin' to da liberal Jewish voting block and Arabs alike. Oh, and he publicly wants Gaza to be governed by the Palestinians (lol). Hope his birthday is as chitty as he's made life for others as Crooked Joe lines his family's pockets, aina?
Hope he got his son-in-law $2 billion
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 09:05:37 AM
So, the BOTUS gave $10 bbbbillion to Iran in addition to the $6 bbbbillion, which btw he never froze ( maybe it'll happen when hell freezes over) and continues to talk outta both cheeks panderin' to da liberal Jewish voting block and Arabs alike. Oh, and he publicly wants Gaza to be governed by the Palestinians (lol). Hope his birthday is as chitty as he's made life for others as Crooked Joe lines his family's pockets, aina?
Brain rot. Sad.
Haley wants an age limit on running for office. Can we have an age limit on voters, too?
Quote from: forgetful on November 20, 2023, 08:38:30 AM
While it doesn't change the take home message that claiming Hamas was not responsible for Oct. 7th is ridiculous, you greatly mischaracterized what the PA said.
I haven't found the original statement (if you have it, link it), but what I did find was them referencing an Israeli news article indicating police fired on terrorists from helicopters and may have killed some of the festival goers. The thing you are referencing regarding the PA was them calling attention to this report, that they then used to blame Israel for festival deaths.
Still a bad look for the PA, but accurately reporting their bad looks is important.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-falsely-says-oct-7-rave-massacre-was-committed-by-idf-netanyahu-preposterous/#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20Authority%20falsely%20claimed,from%20Prime%20Minister%20Benjamin%20Netanyahu (https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-falsely-says-oct-7-rave-massacre-was-committed-by-idf-netanyahu-preposterous/#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20Authority%20falsely%20claimed,from%20Prime%20Minister%20Benjamin%20Netanyahu)
"The Palestinian Authority falsely claimed Sunday that a preliminary investigation by the Israel Police has revealed that the Israel Defense Forces was responsible for the death of all 364 partygoers near Kibbutz Re'im during Hamas's October 7 onslaught, drawing fierce denunciation from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Opposition Leader Yair Lapid.
In a statement by its foreign ministry which has since been deleted from its social media accounts — but which Hebrew media said was sent as a document to diplomats and to the United Nations — Ramallah asserted that Israeli helicopters bombed Israeli civilians on October 7 during the Supernova music festival as part of the so-called "Hannibal Protocol, which allowed the occupation police and army to kill everyone."
PA has now retracted that:
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1700470299-palestinian-authority-retracts-statement-denying-hamas-responsibility-for-massacre (https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1700470299-palestinian-authority-retracts-statement-denying-hamas-responsibility-for-massacre)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_T2uPhXAAAVMjw?format=jpg&name=medium)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 09:05:37 AM
So, the BOTUS gave $10 bbbbillion to Iran in addition to the $6 bbbbillion, which btw he never froze ( maybe it'll happen when hell freezes over) and continues to talk outta both cheeks panderin' to da liberal Jewish voting block and Arabs alike. Oh, and he publicly wants Gaza to be governed by the Palestinians (lol). Hope his birthday is as chitty as he's made life for others as Crooked Joe lines his family's pockets, aina?
So, instead of following through on what you publicly vowed to do right here on Scoop -
"I will never support antisemites" - you change the subject, display BDS and play whataboutism.
We get it. What you really meant is,
"I will never support antisemites ... except those I have supported for years. They get a lifetime pass."Hey, Doc, whatever you need to survive turning yourself into a pretzel.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 09:05:37 AM
So, the BOTUS gave $10 bbbbillion to Iran in addition to the $6 bbbbillion, which btw he never froze ( maybe it'll happen when hell freezes over)
Sigh ...
The U.S. and Qatar have reached an agreement to prevent Iran from accessing $6 billion recently unfrozen as part of a prisoner swap, the deputy treasury secretary told lawmakers on Thursday, sources confirmed to ABC News.https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-halting-release-6-billion-iranian-oil-assets/story?id=103928072The
And that $10 billion he "gave" Iran:
The Biden administration has extended by four months a sanctions waiver that will allow Iraq to continue to purchase electricity from Iran and gives Iran limited access to the proceeds to buy humanitarian goods.
The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the decision-making process, said Blinken signed the waiver mainly because the administration doesn't want to cut Iraq off from a critical source of energy.
But, they said the administration is confident Iran will not be able to use any of the money for nefarious purposes. They said a rigorous vetting process is in place to ensure that the cash can only be used for food, medicine, medical equipment and agricultural goods.https://apnews.com/article/iran-iraq-sanctions-waiver-816c2ba3f8eae10553ed07304c02db0f
Seriously, dude, you've been radicialized by right-wing misinformation.
Sad!
I guess I've been a little preoccupied with other world events but the situation in Benin is very disturbing. I would protect the wildlife there immediately from these terrorists and do more to help the park rangers. Islamic Terrorists all over West Africa is a problem. They're fking evil, get rid of them. Then protect the all of the wonderful animals and help the civilian populations. God bless these park rangers, they're amazing people.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 20, 2023, 09:23:07 AM
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-falsely-says-oct-7-rave-massacre-was-committed-by-idf-netanyahu-preposterous/#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20Authority%20falsely%20claimed,from%20Prime%20Minister%20Benjamin%20Netanyahu (https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-falsely-says-oct-7-rave-massacre-was-committed-by-idf-netanyahu-preposterous/#:~:text=The%20Palestinian%20Authority%20falsely%20claimed,from%20Prime%20Minister%20Benjamin%20Netanyahu)
"The Palestinian Authority falsely claimed Sunday that a preliminary investigation by the Israel Police has revealed that the Israel Defense Forces was responsible for the death of all 364 partygoers near Kibbutz Re'im during Hamas's October 7 onslaught, drawing fierce denunciation from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Opposition Leader Yair Lapid.
In a statement by its foreign ministry which has since been deleted from its social media accounts — but which Hebrew media said was sent as a document to diplomats and to the United Nations — Ramallah asserted that Israeli helicopters bombed Israeli civilians on October 7 during the Supernova music festival as part of the so-called "Hannibal Protocol, which allowed the occupation police and army to kill everyone."
PA has now retracted that:
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1700470299-palestinian-authority-retracts-statement-denying-hamas-responsibility-for-massacre (https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1700470299-palestinian-authority-retracts-statement-denying-hamas-responsibility-for-massacre)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_T2uPhXAAAVMjw?format=jpg&name=medium)
I don't trust the PA or UNRWA at all Lawdog. We gave UNRWA 300 mill to brainwash kids in schools. Inexcusable.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 20, 2023, 08:31:13 AM
Yep, using what happened in Iraq to try to validate ones position is not helping.
Also this quote from Douchey:
The way the IDF has handled this hospital has been the most humane way an attacking force has ever dealt with a hospital turned into a military target in the history of military warfare.
Not sure where he gets that data.
That being said, none of us know all of the details in re al-Shifa.
They could have done what the US did in 2016. They elected to clear it of patients and civilians first.
No other military does this. The IDF is the only one.
----
When The Syrians kill 500k Arabs, no one cares.
When the Yemens kill 300k Arabs, no one cares.
When the Ukrainians and Russians bomb hospitals and kill 500k, not only does no one care, but we have a lot of pro-Ukrainian war hawks in this thread.
Currently, the Dafur genocide is as bad as ever right now (as in the last two weeks); what happened to all the progressives that wore Dafur wristbands? Why did they lose interest?
This was posted two hours ago https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/tea/rest-of-africa/un-adviser-warns-of-genocide-in-sudan-4439848
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/11/16/the-world-is-ignoring-war-genocide-and-famine-in-sudan
And what about the Uyghurs?
The only difference between Gaza and these other examples is the Jews are doing it unless you want to point out another variable I'm missing.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 20, 2023, 10:58:28 AM
When The Syrians kill 500k Arabs, no one cares.
When the Yemens kill 300k Arabs, no one cares.
When the Ukrainians and Russians bomb hospitals and kill 500k, not only does no one care, but we have a lot of pro-Ukrainian war hawks in this thread.
Currently, the Dafur genocide is as bad as ever right now (as in the last two weeks); what happened to all the progressives that wore Dafur wristbands? Why did they lose interest?
This was posted two hours ago https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/tea/rest-of-africa/un-adviser-warns-of-genocide-in-sudan-4439848
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/11/16/the-world-is-ignoring-war-genocide-and-famine-in-sudan
And what about the Uyghurs?
Could you link some of your posts on these events?
And yeah, no one has talked about Ukraine at all. No one cares.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 07:38:01 AM
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
Julianna Margulies: My non-Jewish friends, your silence on antisemitism is loud
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/11/20/antisemitism-jewish-experience-israel-hamas-war/71518720007/
Powerful message.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 20, 2023, 11:15:18 AM
Could you link some of your posts on these events?
And yeah, no one has talked about Ukraine at all. No one cares.
No, we seem to be pro 500k deaths as we are all for the continuation of the Russia/Ukrainian war.
https://www.usip.org/publications/2020/08/current-situation-syria
Now in its 10th year, the Syrian conflict has led to more than 500,000 deaths and displaced an estimated 13 million—over half of Syria's pre-war population. Over 6.2 million Syrians are internally displaced, and 5.6 million are refugees, predominantly in Lebanon, Jordan, and Turkey.
Yemen war will have killed over three hundred thousand by year's end, UN says
https://www.newarab.com/news/yemen-war-will-have-killed-over-300000-years-end-un
---
Again, as long as Jews don't kill them ...butcher them away, and no one cares.
But when the Jews want to go into the basement of a hospital after they spent a week clearing off civilians and patients (which no one else does), worldwide protests demanding a ceasefire and accusations of war crimes.
Again, why are the Jews held to a different standard, a standard that the US military is not held to? Is it because they are Jewish?
----
If these questions make you uncomfortable, you can go back to randomly typing the words "Jewish Space Lasers," "Musk" and "Tucker" to virtue signal your moral superiority.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 20, 2023, 11:45:30 AM
If these questions make you uncomfortable, you can go back to randomly typing the words "Jewish Space Lasers," "Musk" and "Tucker" to virtue signal your moral superiority.
Heisey, since you posted the previous Sam Harris episode, I wanted to see if you've had a chance to listen to the Harari interview and what your thoughts were on that?
Trying to say "oh if you care about this cause, why haven't you said anything about all these causes too" is disingenuous at best.
Those who say that don't care about those additional causes either. Otherwise they'd have easily findable receipts of their advocacy.
Recency bias, our relationship with our close ally Israel, and our country directly funneling more and more money into this conflict makes this a lot more relevant for a lot of people.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 20, 2023, 11:57:30 AM
Heisey, since you posted the previous Sam Harris episode, I wanted to see if you've had a chance to listen to the Harari interview and what your thoughts were on that?
Yes, it was very good.
Not a subscriber so I did not get the second half. Did you?
I'm confident in my moral superiority
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 20, 2023, 11:34:34 AM
Powerful message.
Powerful message, indeed. Now we should all act on it, right? Where do you stand?
New York Times columnist David French, an evangelical Christian, former National Review Institute fellow and a Republican until Trumpism led him to quit the party, had this take on growing antisemitism on the "New Right."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/19/opinion/right-wing-antisemitism-populism.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231120&instance_id=108181&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=150529&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/19/opinion/right-wing-antisemitism-populism.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231120&instance_id=108181&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=150529&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa)
A dam burst last week on the right, and a wave of grotesque antisemitism poured out all over the internet.
In August, I wrote about the "lost boys" of the American right, many of them young and relatively unknown, who were outed for having secret or anonymous online profiles and using those profiles to spread raw bigotry, including antisemitism. Some of these people worked for the right wing's biggest names, including Tucker Carlson, Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump.
What started in the shadows is now right in the open. It's being advanced by some of the most powerful and influential people in America, and there is nothing subtle about it. The latest eruption started with a fight between the Daily Wire co-founder Ben Shapiro and his Daily Wire colleague Candace Owens. ...
Then Owens went on Carlson's show on X, where he ranted against the "biggest donors at, say, Harvard," asking where they were when members of the Harvard community "were calling for white genocide."
"White genocide" is a term of art on the racist right and is linked to the so-called great replacement theory, the notion that leftists (including Jewish progressives) are trying to import people of color to replace America's white majority. This is the theory that motivated the shooter in the Tree of Life synagogue massacre in Pittsburgh. It is false, evil and very dangerous.
The same day, an obscure far-right personality posted the same conspiracy theory on X: "Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them." ...
The post wouldn't be notable, except as yet another example of the bigoted filth that dominates discourse on X, but Elon Musk — the world's richest man and the owner of X — responded with an endorsement. "You have said the actual truth," he replied.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 20, 2023, 11:45:30 AM
No, we seem to be pro 500k deaths as we are all for the continuation of the Russia/Ukrainian war.
Or maybe, and hear me out, some of us believe Ukraine has the right to defend itself against an unprovoked invasion; that Russia should not be rewarded for its aggression; and that preventing Russian expansion and the realization of Putin's dream of a new USSR is a good thing, not only for the interests of the U.S. and its allies, but the world.
Also, the death toll from the Russian/Ukrainian War isn't even half what you claim it is. Once again, you prove yourself utterly incapable of getting even the most basic of facts correct.
And yet still I await your history of posts expressing outrage over the deaths in Yemen, Syria, Darfur, etc. Until then, we can only assume you're a morally inferior hypocrite who's using those tragedies as talking points, and really couldn't care less.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 20, 2023, 01:30:22 PM
Or maybe, and hear me out, some of us believe Ukraine has the right to defend itself against an unprovoked invasion; that Russia should not be rewarded for its aggression; and that preventing Russian expansion and the realization of Putin's dream of a new USSR is a good thing, not only for the interests of the U.S. and its allies, but the world.
Also, the death toll from the Russian/Ukrainian War isn't even half what you claim it is. Once again, you prove yourself utterly incapable of getting even the most basic of facts correct.
And yet still I await your history of posts expressing outrage over the deaths in Yemen, Syria, Darfur, etc. Until then, we can only assume you're a morally inferior hypocrite who's using those tragedies as talking points, and really couldn't care less.
NY Times reporting it is
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html)
Granted Russia is reporting less, based on their death benefits report. But that is Russia. So Douchey isn't making numbers up.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 20, 2023, 12:04:30 PM
Yes, it was very good.
Not a subscriber so I did not get the second half. Did you?
I did - I'll try to figure out if I can post the full episode link without doxxing myself.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 20, 2023, 01:46:00 PM
I did - I'll try to figure out if I can post the full episode link without doxxing myself.
We already know who you are.Joe Burrow, injured QB.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 20, 2023, 01:47:27 PM
We already know who you are.Joe Burrow, injured QB.
MUBrowning's posts are about to SKYROCKET.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 20, 2023, 01:43:09 PM
NY Times reporting it is
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html)
Granted Russia is reporting less, based on their death benefits report. But that is Russia. So Douchey isn't making numbers up.
The headline reads "Troop Death
and Injuries in Ukraine War Near 500,000 ..."
Per this Guardian story based on the same report, the death toll at the time was about 190,000.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/18/ukraine-russia-war-battlefield-deaths-rise
Quote from: Pakuni on November 20, 2023, 02:23:02 PM
The headline reads "Troop Death and Injuries in Ukraine War Near 500,000 ..."
Per this Guardian story based on the same report, the death toll at the time was about 190,000.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/18/ukraine-russia-war-battlefield-deaths-rise
mea culpa. I always thought casualties meant deaths.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 20, 2023, 02:30:19 PM
mea culpa. I always thought casualties meant deaths.
Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 20, 2023, 01:30:22 PM
Or maybe, and hear me out, some of us believe Ukraine has the right to defend itself against an unprovoked invasion; that Russia should not be rewarded for its aggression; and that preventing Russian expansion and the realization of Putin's dream of a new USSR is a good thing, not only for the interests of the U.S. and its allies, but the world.
Also, the death toll from the Russian/Ukrainian War isn't even half what you claim it is. Once again, you prove yourself utterly incapable of getting even the most basic of facts correct.
And yet still I await your history of posts expressing outrage over the deaths in Yemen, Syria, Darfur, etc. Until then, we can only assume you're a morally inferior hypocrite who's using those tragedies as talking points, and really couldn't care less.
FIFY
Or maybe, and hear me out, some of us believe
Israel has the right to defend itself against an unprovoked invasion; that
Hamas should not be rewarded for its aggression; and that preventing
Hamas expansion and the realization of
one-state and the destruction of Isreal is a good thing, not only for the interests of the U.S. and its allies, but the world.
Same thing ... but you will not admit it.
Former Chicago mayor's home vandalized with 'Nazi' graffiti
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-774282
The Michigan home of Rahm Emanuel, former Chicago Mayor and current US ambassador to Japan, was defaced with the word "Nazis" spray-painted on its fence. The Chicago Sun Times reported that Emanuel, a prominent Jewish political figure in the United States, was not present at his Gordon Beach cottage during the incident.
Expressing his gratitude towards the community's support, Emanuel told the Sun Times, "Our family is very proud of how our friends, neighbors and the community have rallied to our support and in a singular voice in condemning hatred and bigotry."
Emanuel also commended the local law enforcement for their prompt response to the hate crime.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 20, 2023, 05:32:12 PM
FIFY
Or maybe, and hear me out, some of us believe Israel has the right to defend itself against an unprovoked invasion; that Hamas should not be rewarded for its aggression; and that preventing Hamas expansion and the realization of one-state and the destruction of Isreal is a good thing, not only for the interests of the U.S. and its allies, but the world.
Same thing ... but you will not admit it.
Please point out where I've ever said anything different.
And if not, please come back and admit I've never said anything different.
https://youtu.be/pJ9PKQbkJv8?si=l_av7Y5FSwUcBCdk
Finally got around to watching Jon Oliver's segment on the Israel Hamas conflict
Quote from: Pakuni on November 20, 2023, 05:44:57 PM
Please point out where I've ever said anything different.
And if not, please come back and admit I've never said anything different.
I asked why the world, not anyone personally, does not get worked up about the deaths and genocides happening all over the world. But when Israel moves to defend itself after a terrible attack, the world goes nuts protesting, demanding ceasefires, chanting "from the river ..." and accusing Israel of war crimes.
You took it upon yourself to single out Ukraine, even starting with "or maybe, and hear me out," implying that Ukraine is different and justifiable, whereas Israel is wrong. Go ahead and say you did not say that. It is what you suggested with your tone and wording.
This is your problem; I live rent-free in your head because you cannot stand me. So you see my name attack and scream everything is wrong to the point you argue in circles, like here, to disagree with me.
Go re-read all your posts here. Have you been able to add anything to this conversation? All you do is condescend, ridicule, scream wrong, and occasionally win minor points.
So, you're correct; Ukraine had 500,000
casualties, not 500,00
deaths. You attacked me with pretty harsh language over this difference. What did you win by getting me to concede the difference between casualties and deaths? Are you suggesting 190,000 deaths is acceptable, but 500,000 is not?
Seriously, why don't you mute me and this thread and move on with your life?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 20, 2023, 06:02:08 PM
I asked why the world, not anyone personally, does not get worked up about the deaths and genocides happening all over the world. But when Israel moves to defend itself after a terrible attack, the world goes nuts protesting, demanding ceasefires, chanting "from the river ..." and accusing Israel of war crimes.
You took it upon yourself to single out Ukraine, even starting with "or maybe, and hear me out," implying that Ukraine is different and justifiable, whereas Israel is wrong. Go ahead and say you did not say that. It is what you suggested with your tone and wording.
So typical. You can't muster a credible argument against what is actually said, so you need to make sh*t up. And when called on it, you double down instead of admitting your mistake.
It's your M.O. and I'm obviously an idiot for engaging with you.
But no, I won't mute you. It's too much fun pointing out your false statements, intellectual dishonesty and bad faith arguments.
Hate you? My dude, you don't even rate.
Why does it have to be Ukraine OR Israel? The United States should be fully supporting both nations. They are allies that got invaded by terrorists.
Funding bills being proposed by Congress that are willing to assist Israel but not Ukraine - or vice versa - are garbage. I will not vote for any politician for any office, whether Democrat or Republican, who portrays it as an either/or proposition.
Quote from: MU82 on November 20, 2023, 06:45:29 PM
Why does it have to be Ukraine OR Israel? The United States should be fully supporting both nations. They are allies that got invaded by terrorists.
Funding bills being proposed by Congress that are willing to assist Israel but not Ukraine - or vice versa - are garbage. I will not vote for any politician for any office, whether Democrat or Republican, who portrays it as an either/or proposition.
Yeah, the trouble in Israel is Iran trying to help out Russia. It's like they drank a little too much of their own kool-aid and believe that two proxy wars will stretch the USA too thin.
The far right eats up that propaganda as you see in some other posters, talking about america being perceived as weak. Pretty funny, imo.
Quote from: MU82 on November 20, 2023, 06:45:29 PM
Why does it have to be Ukraine OR Israel? The United States should be fully supporting both nations. They are allies that got invaded by terrorists.
Funding bills being proposed by Congress that are willing to assist Israel but not Ukraine - or vice versa - are garbage. I will not vote for any politician for any office, whether Democrat or Republican, who portrays it as an either/or proposition.
How 'bout a lifelong politician who claims to be an ally of Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, but openly supports the Palestinians and decries they should govern Gaza and essentially funds terrorism with $16 bbbbillion and countin'. All the while refusin' to choke off Iranian oil exports, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
https://youtu.be/7Jyc-LzXqk0?si=EwcPpPsQ2Bgo4AQt
Fascinating video
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 07:02:57 PM
How 'bout a lifelong politician who claims to be an ally of Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, but openly supports the Palestinians and decries they should govern Gaza and essentially funds terrorism with $16 bbbbillion and countin'. All the while refusin' to choke off Iranian oil exports, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Man you're pretty racist. That's like 3 posts from you talking about how palestinians use kids as human shields and how they shouldn't govern themselves. Full mask off, eh?
Quote from: Pakuni on November 20, 2023, 06:17:22 PM
So typical. You can't muster a credible argument against what is actually said, so you need to make sh*t up. And when called on it, you double down instead of admitting your mistake.
It's your M.O. and I'm obviously an idiot for engaging with you.
But no, I won't mute you. It's too much fun pointing out your false statements, intellectual dishonesty and bad faith arguments.
Hate you? My dude, you don't even rate.
Your anger is really unhealthy. Seek help.
Until then, try and enjoy the UCLA game tonight.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 20, 2023, 07:14:13 PM
Man you're pretty racist. That's like 3 posts from you talking about how palestinians use kids as human shields and how they shouldn't govern themselves. Full mask off, eh?
I'm pretty tame compared to Palestinians, aina?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 20, 2023, 07:11:00 PM
https://youtu.be/7Jyc-LzXqk0?si=EwcPpPsQ2Bgo4AQt
Fascinating video
Agreed. Very well made video.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 20, 2023, 07:47:54 PM
I'm pretty tame compared to Palestinians, aina?
You're pretty tame compared to Tucker, Nick Fuentes, Musk, MTG, the Proud Boys, Kanye, Gosar, and the insurrectionist y'all worship.
The Jewish Space Laser is getting deployed!
82 might owe MTG an apology.
----
November 20, 2023
Iron Beam laser defense system set to become operational earlier than expected
The security establishment sees the war in Gaza as an opportunity to test Rafael's laser interception system in the hope of making it operational as early as next year. At the same time, Rafael and IAI are accelerating the development of systems that should provide multi-layered protection from space as well
https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/jvpqkwmtf
It is silent, so that a launch at the target is not accompanied by the thunder of the departure of interceptor missiles, similar to the existing defense systems. Its interceptions are also quiet and free of explosions. In fact, the only noise from the laser interceptor comes from the generator that supplies the electricity needed to produce the deadly beam.
---
It also solves another issue. Each Iron Dome interceptor costs about $60k. An Iron Beam laser can do the job for about $3.
Hamas Rockers can built for a few hundred dollars.
November 19, 2023
Poll: Biden's standing hits new lows amid Israel-Hamas war
Young voters are breaking from Biden, helping give Trump a narrow lead for the first time in NBC News polling, though the gap is within the margin of error.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/poll-bidens-standing-hits-new-lows-israel-hamas-war-rcna125251
The erosion for Biden is most pronounced among Democrats, a majority of whom believe Israel has gone too far in its military action in Gaza, and among voters ages 18 to 34, with a whopping 70% of them disapproving of Biden's handling of the war.
The poll finds a plurality of American voters, 47%, believing that Israel is defending its interests in the war, and that its military actions in Gaza are justified.
By comparison, 30% think that Israel's military actions have gone too far and are not justified. Another 21% say they don't know enough to have an opinion.
Yet among Democratic voters, 51% believe Israel has gone too far, versus 27% who say Israel's military actions are justified.
And while a majority of all voters (55%) support the United States providing military aid to Israel, almost half of Democrats (49%) say they oppose this aid.
----
Is ignorance driving the belief system of a lot of younger voters? (answer ... yes!)
September 16, 2020
Nearly two-thirds of US young adults unaware 6m Jews killed in the Holocaust
According to survey of adults 18-39, 23% said they believed the Holocaust was a myth, had been exaggerated or they weren't sure
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/holocaust-us-adults-study
lmost two-thirds of young American adults do not know that 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust, and more than one in 10 believe Jews caused the Holocaust, a new survey has found, revealing shocking levels of ignorance about the greatest crime of the 20th century.
According to the study of millennial and Gen Z adults aged between 18 and 39, almost half (48%) could not name a single concentration camp or ghetto established during the second world war.
Almost a quarter of respondents (23%) said they believed the Holocaust was a myth, or had been exaggerated, or they weren't sure. One in eight (12%) said they had definitely not heard, or didn't think they had heard, about the Holocaust.
More than half (56%) said they had seen Nazi symbols on their social media platforms and/or in their communities, and almost half (49%) had seen Holocaust denial or distortion posts on social media or elsewhere online
-----
Don't worry; the hottest TikTok influencer, Osama bin Laden, is guiding their thinking.
If they could only cut and paste dozens of articles a day, only to completely misread what they say like you do Heisey. That's the sign of true intelligence.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 21, 2023, 09:13:59 AM
If they could only cut and paste dozens of articles a day, only to completely misread what they say like you do Heisey. That's the sign of true intelligence.
More useful than your posts.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 21, 2023, 09:16:47 AM
More useful than your posts.
If "useful" means "always good for a laugh," then yes.
Why on Earth Are Jewish Leaders Praising Elon Musk?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/opinion/adl-elon-musk-antisemitism.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231121&instance_id=108269&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=150618&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Last week a self-described Jewish conservative named Charles Weber took to X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, to address the "cowards hiding behind the anonymity of the internet and posting 'Hitler was right.'" Weber dared those trolls to "say it to our faces." One X user took him up on it.
"Okay," the user replied. Jewish communities "have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them." Echoing the great replacement conspiracy theory, which holds that Jews are scheming to undermine white political power by importing Black and brown immigrants, he accused Jews of flooding America with "hordes of minorities." Therefore, he said, he was "deeply disinterested" in Jewish panic about mounting antisemitism.
Then Elon Musk, the owner of X and one of the richest men in the world, chimed in, responding: "You have said the actual truth."
Musk's words caused a firestorm and led to a major advertising exodus from X, but they shouldn't have been that surprising, because he has been flirting with antisemitism for a while now. He's compared the liberal Jewish billionaire George Soros to the X-Men supervillain Magneto — a Jew who grew to hate humanity during the Holocaust — and later accused Soros's organization of seeking "nothing less than the destruction of western civilization." Musk has tweeted an alt-right Pepe the Frog meme and welcomed the rapper Kanye West back to Twitter after West, who now goes by Ye, threatened to go "death con 3 on Jewish people." For the last few months, he has been on a crusade against the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights organization that he blamed for a 60 percent decline in Twitter's ad revenue. Last week, an investigation by the progressive watchdog group Media Matters for America found that X was placing ads for major corporations next to white nationalist and neo-Nazi content. (On Monday, X filed a lawsuit against Media Matters, accusing it of manipulating the platform's algorithm "to force a situation in which a brand ad post appeared adjacent to fringe content.")
So I wasn't shocked by Musk's words. I was astonished, however, by how easily, in the days following his antisemitic outburst, Musk was able to win praise from a few Jewish leaders simply by promising to censor common pro-Palestinian language. The sordid episode was a reminder of the moral rot that comes from conflating the state of Israel with the Jewish people, a rot we see on both sides of the ferocious fight over Israel's future.
Since Oct. 7, Jews the world over have been confronted by vicious antisemitism unleashed by hatred of Israel. I've long argued that anti-Zionism and antisemitism aren't the same thing; the leftists who want to see a binational state in Israel and Palestine with equal rights for all may be naïve, but they are not genocidal. However, the explosion of anti-Jewish rhetoric and violence occasioned by the war in Gaza — the stabbing of a Jewish woman in France, the shootings of Jewish day schools in Montreal, the killing of a Jewish protester near Los Angeles — has forced me to reckon with how often anti-Zionism and antisemitism are intertwined. Abhorrence of the Jewish state slips easily into abhorrence of Jews.
On the right, though, there's a mirror image of this slippage, with some defenders of the Jewish state willing to make excuses for antisemites so long as they champion Israel. The apocalyptic Christian Zionist pastor John Hagee, for example, has said that Adolf Hitler was sent by God to drive the Jews to Israel, "the only home God ever intended for the Jews to have," and claimed that the Antichrist would be "partially Jewish, as was Adolf Hitler, as was Karl Marx." (He later apologized for his insensitivity even as he said, "I cannot deny the tenets of my faith.") Despite his inflammatory words about Jews, Hagee was invited to speak at the March for Israel in Washington last week. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has regularly embraced nationalist leaders who deploy antisemitic tropes, Donald Trump chief among them.
Musk appears to have learned the lesson that ardent Zionism can function as an alibi for antisemitism. As advertisers fled X last week, he suddenly announced that he was going to ban the pro-Palestinian slogan "From the river to the sea," as well as "decolonization," a buzzword on the anti-Zionist left. The move made a mockery of the ostensible free speech absolutism that was Musk's excuse for allowing so much antisemitism on X in the first place. It did nothing to curb overt white nationalists on the site, many of whom had celebrated Musk's "actual truth" post. But it was enough to earn him plaudits from some Jewish and Israeli spokespeople.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person link=topic=65076.msg1588522#msg1588522
Nearly two-thirds of US young adults unaware 6m Jews killed in the Holocaust
According to survey of adults 18-39, 23% said they believed the Holocaust was a myth, had been exaggerated or they weren't sure
I wonder how many of them also use "Nazi" and "facist" incorrectly to label anything/anyone they don't agree with.
Quote from: MU82 on November 21, 2023, 09:20:35 AM
Musk appears to have learned the lesson that ardent Zionism can function as an alibi for antisemitism. As advertisers fled X last week, he suddenly announced that he was going to ban the pro-Palestinian slogan "From the river to the sea," as well as "decolonization," a buzzword on the anti-Zionist left. The move made a mockery of the ostensible free speech absolutism that was Musk's excuse for allowing so much antisemitism on X in the first place. It did nothing to curb overt white nationalists on the site, many of whom had celebrated Musk's "actual truth" post. But it was enough to earn him plaudits from some Jewish and Israeli spokespeople.[/i]
I mean, could this be an oversimplification? They can praise his decision on the slogans while not blanket approving/praising everything he's done? I don't necessarily think positively calling out his decision on those slogans is full approval of everything he's done recently, but thats just me.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 21, 2023, 09:18:58 AM
If "useful" means "always good for a laugh," then yes.
Glad you find Holocaust ignorance and denial among the young funny.
Is it funnier to you than the laugh you got earlier from people who say this is a war for the existence of Israel?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 21, 2023, 09:42:34 AM
Glad you find Holocaust ignorance and denial among the young funny.
Is it funnier to you than the laugh you got earlier from people who say this is a war for the existence of Israel?
I never said the first sentence, so you're once again lying.
I'm right about the second, which you don't have the ability to comprehend.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 21, 2023, 09:42:34 AM
Glad you find Holocaust ignorance and denial among the young funny.
Personally, I prefer the Holocaust ignorance and denial of Alex Jones, MTG and Nick Fuentes, who have something in common (and it's not that they're young). Always good for a laugh.
We are getting close to a temporary ceasefire for a hostage swap.
The problem is when Israel asks for a hostage, Hamas has to admit, "Sorry that one is dead."
@Yair_Rosenberg
We have reached the stage of the hostage deal news cycle where Hamas and Islamic Jihad start copping to killing hostages, whether by intent or neglect, to explain why some of them are not available to be released.
And Hamas wants hostages in return. But who does Hamas want?
@AviMayer
Remember this:
The Palestinians who will be released in the impending deal are convicted terrorists who are in prison because they tried to murder Israelis.
The Israelis who will be freed are innocent civilians being held hostage by terrorists.
There is no equivalence. None.
Quote from: MU82 on November 21, 2023, 09:20:35 AM
Why on Earth Are Jewish Leaders Praising Elon Musk?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/opinion/adl-elon-musk-antisemitism.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231121&instance_id=108269&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=150618&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Last week a self-described Jewish conservative named Charles Weber took to X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, to address the "cowards hiding behind the anonymity of the internet and posting 'Hitler was right.'" Weber dared those trolls to "say it to our faces." One X user took him up on it.
"Okay," the user replied. Jewish communities "have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them." Echoing the great replacement conspiracy theory, which holds that Jews are scheming to undermine white political power by importing Black and brown immigrants, he accused Jews of flooding America with "hordes of minorities." Therefore, he said, he was "deeply disinterested" in Jewish panic about mounting antisemitism.
Then Elon Musk, the owner of X and one of the richest men in the world, chimed in, responding: "You have said the actual truth."
Musk's words caused a firestorm and led to a major advertising exodus from X, but they shouldn't have been that surprising, because he has been flirting with antisemitism for a while now. He's compared the liberal Jewish billionaire George Soros to the X-Men supervillain Magneto — a Jew who grew to hate humanity during the Holocaust — and later accused Soros's organization of seeking "nothing less than the destruction of western civilization." Musk has tweeted an alt-right Pepe the Frog meme and welcomed the rapper Kanye West back to Twitter after West, who now goes by Ye, threatened to go "death con 3 on Jewish people." For the last few months, he has been on a crusade against the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights organization that he blamed for a 60 percent decline in Twitter's ad revenue. Last week, an investigation by the progressive watchdog group Media Matters for America found that X was placing ads for major corporations next to white nationalist and neo-Nazi content. (On Monday, X filed a lawsuit against Media Matters, accusing it of manipulating the platform's algorithm "to force a situation in which a brand ad post appeared adjacent to fringe content.")
So I wasn't shocked by Musk's words. I was astonished, however, by how easily, in the days following his antisemitic outburst, Musk was able to win praise from a few Jewish leaders simply by promising to censor common pro-Palestinian language. The sordid episode was a reminder of the moral rot that comes from conflating the state of Israel with the Jewish people, a rot we see on both sides of the ferocious fight over Israel's future.
Since Oct. 7, Jews the world over have been confronted by vicious antisemitism unleashed by hatred of Israel. I've long argued that anti-Zionism and antisemitism aren't the same thing; the leftists who want to see a binational state in Israel and Palestine with equal rights for all may be naïve, but they are not genocidal. However, the explosion of anti-Jewish rhetoric and violence occasioned by the war in Gaza — the stabbing of a Jewish woman in France, the shootings of Jewish day schools in Montreal, the killing of a Jewish protester near Los Angeles — has forced me to reckon with how often anti-Zionism and antisemitism are intertwined. Abhorrence of the Jewish state slips easily into abhorrence of Jews.
On the right, though, there's a mirror image of this slippage, with some defenders of the Jewish state willing to make excuses for antisemites so long as they champion Israel. The apocalyptic Christian Zionist pastor John Hagee, for example, has said that Adolf Hitler was sent by God to drive the Jews to Israel, "the only home God ever intended for the Jews to have," and claimed that the Antichrist would be "partially Jewish, as was Adolf Hitler, as was Karl Marx." (He later apologized for his insensitivity even as he said, "I cannot deny the tenets of my faith.") Despite his inflammatory words about Jews, Hagee was invited to speak at the March for Israel in Washington last week. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has regularly embraced nationalist leaders who deploy antisemitic tropes, Donald Trump chief among them.
Musk appears to have learned the lesson that ardent Zionism can function as an alibi for antisemitism. As advertisers fled X last week, he suddenly announced that he was going to ban the pro-Palestinian slogan "From the river to the sea," as well as "decolonization," a buzzword on the anti-Zionist left. The move made a mockery of the ostensible free speech absolutism that was Musk's excuse for allowing so much antisemitism on X in the first place. It did nothing to curb overt white nationalists on the site, many of whom had celebrated Musk's "actual truth" post. But it was enough to earn him plaudits from some Jewish and Israeli spokespeople.
The head of the ADL's behavior regarding Musk is some of the most cynical s*** I have seen in a while.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 21, 2023, 05:37:59 PM
The head of the ADL's behavior regarding Musk is some of the most cynical s*** I have seen in a while.
Hey, sometimes you might feel the need to placate an oligarch if you feel the future of your people is on the line. I find it hard to judge them.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 21, 2023, 05:56:17 PM
Hey, sometimes you might feel the need to placate an oligarch if you feel the future of your people is on the line. I find it hard to judge them.
Really? The theories that Musk has been espousing have been extensively cited by anti-Semitic mass killers in the US.
Greenblatt's actions really seem to spite the safety of Jewish people globally to bolster only the current government of Israel itself. That seems extremely cynical, no?
Free speech absolutist Musk seems to have no issues implementing content moderation if it allows him to say what he wants with minimal consequences
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 21, 2023, 05:56:17 PM
Hey, sometimes you might feel the need to placate an oligarch if you feel the future of your people is on the line. I find it hard to judge them.
One might reasonably suggest that the tropes in which Musk is trading and allows on Twitter are every bit the threat to the future of Greenblatt's people as what Musk (free speech absolutist that he is) has chosen to block.
Could it be more important to someone to promote pro-zionist viewpoints and ignore anti-Semitic stuff?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 21, 2023, 06:39:47 PM
Could it be more important to someone to promote pro-zionist viewpoints and ignore anti-Semitic stuff?
I guess if a person hated Muslims, more than they hated Jews, they could have overall hatred towards both, but when choosing one over the other in a confrontation, they would choose the Jewish stance.
That could lead a person to be overtly anti-Semitic, but pro-Zionist.
Credit to Biden for being the fulcrum in achieving a short term cessation of hostilities and perhaps the safe return of a good number of hostages. I'm sure it will hurt his electability but the right course.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on November 21, 2023, 08:17:25 PM
Credit to Biden for being the fulcrum in achieving a short term cessation of hostilities and perhaps the safe return of a good number of hostages. I'm sure it will hurt his electability but the right course.
His electability is already in serious, serious doubt. A ton of people who supported him in 2020 are either meh or outright hostile to him this time around. Probably only one R he can beat - Trump.
This temporary cessation won't affect him one way or the other, though I agree - (if accomplished) it's the right course.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 21, 2023, 04:42:34 PM
We are getting close to a temporary ceasefire for a hostage swap.
The problem is when Israel asks for a hostage, Hamas has to admit, "Sorry that one is dead."
@Yair_Rosenberg
We have reached the stage of the hostage deal news cycle where Hamas and Islamic Jihad start copping to killing hostages, whether by intent or neglect, to explain why some of them are not available to be released.
And Hamas wants hostages in return. But who does Hamas want?
@AviMayer
Remember this:
The Palestinians who will be released in the impending deal are convicted terrorists who are in prison because they tried to murder Israelis.
The Israelis who will be freed are innocent civilians being held hostage by terrorists.
There is no equivalence. None.
@ryangrim
This lie will get millions of views but no community note. The Palestinians being released by Israel havent been charged or convicted of anything in a real court. What do you call women and children who are captured by foreign gunmen and held without trial? That's who Israel is exchanging.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 21, 2023, 10:02:59 PM
@ryangrim
This lie will get millions of views but no community note. The Palestinians being released by Israel havent been charged or convicted of anything in a real court. What do you call women and children who are captured by foreign gunmen and held without trial? That's who Israel is exchanging.
I hope you're right, but as of right now, none of the names have been released of who Israel is exchanging for hostages.
"To see neo-Nazis marching in our streets and neighborhoods and in the shadow of our State Capitol building spreading their disturbing, hateful messages is truly revolting. Let us be clear: Neo-Nazis, antisemitism, and white supremacy have no home in Wisconsin. We will not accept or normalize this rhetoric and hate. It's repulsive and disgusting, and I join Wisconsinites in condemning and denouncing their presence in our state in the strongest terms possible."
- Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers.
This is what we know as I write this ...
Three Hours Ago
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2023/11/22/bulletin-warns-of-increasing-terrorist-threat-to-new-york-cbs-news-n2631520
Authorities in the Empire State are on high alert ahead of Thanksgiving as, according to Catherine Herridge, CBS News obtained an intelligence bulletin warning of "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" amid Iran-backed terrorists' war against Israel launched with an October 7 Hamas slaughter of more than 1,200 individuals in the Jewish state.
@CBS_Herridge
https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1727131445528064453
@CBSNews obtained intel alert which points to "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" tied to Israel-Hamas war" + the "increase in civilian casualties raises the likelihood that violent extremist threat actors will seek to conduct attacks..."
One Hour Ago
Rainbow Bridge between US, Canada closed following vehicle explosion: FBI
The Rainbow Bridge was shut down to all traffic following the blast.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/rainbow-bridge-us-canada-closed-explosion-sources/story?id=105102476
The Rainbow Bridge connecting the U.S. and Canada at Niagara Falls, New York, has been closed after a vehicle explosion, according to the FBI and local authorities.
There are believed to be fatalities from the incident, multiple officials confirmed to ABC News.
Investigators have found some sort of suitcase or briefcase on-scene, sources told ABC News. They are treating it as a possible explosive device as a precaution and the bomb squad is handling the package.
30 Minutes ago
NY vehicle explosion at Rainbow Bridge border crossing is attempted terror attack: sources
Rainbow Bridge, which connects Niagara Falls, New York to Niagara Falls, Canada, is currently shut down as the investigation unfolds
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ny-vehicle-explosion-reported-rainbow-bridge-niagara-falls-injured
The FBI is investigating a vehicle explosion Wednesday at the Rainbow Bridge border crossing between the U.S. and Canada in what sources tell Fox News was an attempted terrorist attack.
Explosives were in the vehicle at the time and two people who were in the car are dead, the sources told Fox News. A border officer was injured.
The vehicle was driving from the U.S. to Canada and were attempting to drive toward the border officer building, the sources said.
All bridges are closed in the area, and all government buildings are evacuated, according to the sources.
Headline 10 Minutes ago
*AUTHORITIES SEARCHING FOR SECOND VEHICLE IN BRIDGE ATTACK: FOX
https://x.com/KenDilanianNBC/status/1727412513107779929?s=20
Once again, I find myself agreeing with the pope.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 21, 2023, 10:02:59 PM
@ryangrim
This lie will get millions of views but no community note. The Palestinians being released by Israel havent been charged or convicted of anything in a real court. What do you call women and children who are captured by foreign gunmen and held without trial? That's who Israel is exchanging.
The fact that so many people are unaware that Israel has 100's of women and children illegally detained (for lengthy amounts of time) is surprising.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/biden-hostage-israel-hamas-war-00128351
"...there was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause: that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel."
:o
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 22, 2023, 02:08:51 PM
https://x.com/KenDilanianNBC/status/1727412513107779929?s=20
https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1727436617743561026?t=aaOYsZXPF8F3IbEyKzHoQQ&s=19
"New footage from the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls, NY shows a vehicle going airborne before catching fire as officials are now retracting earlier statements suggesting a terrorist attack."
I'm sure more info will come out. But, for now, looks like anyone who jumped on Hamas-related terror attack will have to wait a bit longer to rile folks up
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 22, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
This is what we know as I write this ...
Three Hours Ago
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2023/11/22/bulletin-warns-of-increasing-terrorist-threat-to-new-york-cbs-news-n2631520
Authorities in the Empire State are on high alert ahead of Thanksgiving as, according to Catherine Herridge, CBS News obtained an intelligence bulletin warning of "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" amid Iran-backed terrorists' war against Israel launched with an October 7 Hamas slaughter of more than 1,200 individuals in the Jewish state.
@CBS_Herridge
https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1727131445528064453
@CBSNews obtained intel alert which points to "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" tied to Israel-Hamas war" + the "increase in civilian casualties raises the likelihood that violent extremist threat actors will seek to conduct attacks..."
One Hour Ago
Rainbow Bridge between US, Canada closed following vehicle explosion: FBI
The Rainbow Bridge was shut down to all traffic following the blast.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/rainbow-bridge-us-canada-closed-explosion-sources/story?id=105102476
The Rainbow Bridge connecting the U.S. and Canada at Niagara Falls, New York, has been closed after a vehicle explosion, according to the FBI and local authorities.
There are believed to be fatalities from the incident, multiple officials confirmed to ABC News.
Investigators have found some sort of suitcase or briefcase on-scene, sources told ABC News. They are treating it as a possible explosive device as a precaution and the bomb squad is handling the package.
30 Minutes ago
NY vehicle explosion at Rainbow Bridge border crossing is attempted terror attack: sources
Rainbow Bridge, which connects Niagara Falls, New York to Niagara Falls, Canada, is currently shut down as the investigation unfolds
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ny-vehicle-explosion-reported-rainbow-bridge-niagara-falls-injured
The FBI is investigating a vehicle explosion Wednesday at the Rainbow Bridge border crossing between the U.S. and Canada in what sources tell Fox News was an attempted terrorist attack.
Explosives were in the vehicle at the time and two people who were in the car are dead, the sources told Fox News. A border officer was injured.
The vehicle was driving from the U.S. to Canada and were attempting to drive toward the border officer building, the sources said.
All bridges are closed in the area, and all government buildings are evacuated, according to the sources.
Headline 10 Minutes ago
*AUTHORITIES SEARCHING FOR SECOND VEHICLE IN BRIDGE ATTACK: FOX
So close. Rich drunk guy in a $200,000 car who wanted to see KISS, but ended up at a casino, then speeds through a checkpoint and crashes his car.
WSJ also saying, "No indication incident related to terrorism, according to preliminary investigation."
Alas ... it was almost Douchey's wet dream.
Still sad that people have died, even if Islamic terrorists weren't responsible.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2023, 07:59:25 PM
WSJ also saying, "No indication incident related to terrorism, according to preliminary investigation."
Alas ... it was almost Douchey's wet dream.
Still sad that people have died, even if Islamic terrorists weren't responsible.
What bothers me most about all of this, is that Foxnews was broadcasting that it was a terrorist attack, explosives were found, and that another car might be involved.
All false. They were the only ones writing this, all other sources said otherwise, and they put the articles right up next to ones claiming that Hamas was going to attack NY, and that the porous border was letting terrorists in.
That is absurd journalistic maleficence.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 20, 2023, 09:54:02 AM
I don't trust the PA or UNRWA at all Lawdog. We gave UNRWA 300 mill to brainwash kids in schools. Inexcusable.
What about groups having kids sing songs about annihilating/eliminating everyone?
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/
(https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli-kids-singing-of-wiping-out-nations-enemies-elicits-outrage/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli-kids-singing-of-wiping-out-nations-enemies-elicits-outrage/)
Kahanism is making a major comeback, with people like Ben-Gvir in places of power (once threatened to kill Yitzhak Rabin, weeks before his political allies actually assassinated him). Notably, Ben-Gvir was banned from the Israeli military for being associated with a terrorist organization, but is now the Minister of National Security.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 22, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
This is what we know as I write this ...
Three Hours Ago
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2023/11/22/bulletin-warns-of-increasing-terrorist-threat-to-new-york-cbs-news-n2631520
Authorities in the Empire State are on high alert ahead of Thanksgiving as, according to Catherine Herridge, CBS News obtained an intelligence bulletin warning of "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" amid Iran-backed terrorists' war against Israel launched with an October 7 Hamas slaughter of more than 1,200 individuals in the Jewish state.
@CBS_Herridge
https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1727131445528064453
@CBSNews obtained intel alert which points to "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" tied to Israel-Hamas war" + the "increase in civilian casualties raises the likelihood that violent extremist threat actors will seek to conduct attacks..."
One Hour Ago
Rainbow Bridge between US, Canada closed following vehicle explosion: FBI
The Rainbow Bridge was shut down to all traffic following the blast.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/rainbow-bridge-us-canada-closed-explosion-sources/story?id=105102476
The Rainbow Bridge connecting the U.S. and Canada at Niagara Falls, New York, has been closed after a vehicle explosion, according to the FBI and local authorities.
There are believed to be fatalities from the incident, multiple officials confirmed to ABC News.
Investigators have found some sort of suitcase or briefcase on-scene, sources told ABC News. They are treating it as a possible explosive device as a precaution and the bomb squad is handling the package.
30 Minutes ago
NY vehicle explosion at Rainbow Bridge border crossing is attempted terror attack: sources
Rainbow Bridge, which connects Niagara Falls, New York to Niagara Falls, Canada, is currently shut down as the investigation unfolds
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ny-vehicle-explosion-reported-rainbow-bridge-niagara-falls-injured
The FBI is investigating a vehicle explosion Wednesday at the Rainbow Bridge border crossing between the U.S. and Canada in what sources tell Fox News was an attempted terrorist attack.
Explosives were in the vehicle at the time and two people who were in the car are dead, the sources told Fox News. A border officer was injured.
The vehicle was driving from the U.S. to Canada and were attempting to drive toward the border officer building, the sources said.
All bridges are closed in the area, and all government buildings are evacuated, according to the sources.
Headline 10 Minutes ago
*AUTHORITIES SEARCHING FOR SECOND VEHICLE IN BRIDGE ATTACK: FOX
(https://media.tenor.com/gTGILzSvXVcAAAAC/receipts-i-have-the-receipts.gif)
https://www.meidastouch.com/news/screen-shots-of-republicans-who-lied-about-a-terrorist-attack
I'm sure Heisey will be along any minute now to admit he was wrong.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 23, 2023, 06:31:29 AM
I'm sure Heisey will be along any minute now to admit he was wrong.
Right after 4elder pops up to praise Biden for driving the hostage deal
Sure, Hamas gets rewarded for terrorism and innocent Israelis are murdered, hey?
#awfuldeal
Ty Cobb, the attorney who successfully defended the previous president during the probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election, said this about his former client:
"He has never cared about America, its citizens, its future or anything but himself. In fact, as history well shows from his divisive lies, as well as from his unrestrained contempt for the rule of law and his related crimes, his conduct and mere existence have hastened the demise of democracy and of the nation. Our adversaries and our allies both recognize that even his potential reelection diminishes America on the world stage and ensures continued acceleration of the domestic decline we are currently enduring. If that reelection actually happens, the consequences will extinguish what, if anything, remains of the American Dream."
Not sure what this has to do with the topic...
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 23, 2023, 09:30:20 AM
Not sure what this has to do with the topic...
"Our adversaries and our allies both recognize that even his potential reelection diminishes America on the world stage"
Quote from: MU82 on November 23, 2023, 09:42:37 AM
"Our adversaries and our allies both recognize that even his potential reelection diminishes America on the world stage"
Which has nothing to do with the quote you provided. You just want to find a place to insert politics.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 23, 2023, 10:14:23 AM
Which has nothing to do with the quote you provided. You just want to find a place to insert politics TDS.
Al Shifa hospital director and medical staff arrested.
The reasoning, they had to know something about Hamas, because empty tunnels, built by Israel 40 years ago, were found under the hospital.
Things like this risk the ceasefire and hostage release.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 23, 2023, 10:14:23 AM
Which has nothing to do with the quote you provided. You just want to find a place to insert politics.
You're new here, Officer.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 24, 2023, 10:43:22 AM
#selfown
Gotta have his Trump fix - more addictive than heroin for Mike.
Quote from: forgetful on November 23, 2023, 10:28:51 AM
Al Shifa hospital director and medical staff arrested.
The reasoning, they had to know something about Hamas, because empty tunnels, built by Israel 40 years ago, were found under the hospital.
Things like this risk the ceasefire and hostage release.
Or could it be because of the video showing hostages being brought back to Al Shifa on October 7th and a myriad of other things they found involving the hospital? Its a bit Hamas PR-ish to say there is nothing of interest there to be found involving anything with the hospital but just some old empty tunnels.
And I'm not exactly seeing the correlation in your last point. They didn't bomb the hospital, they didn't demolish the Hospital Director's house, they didn't execute any of them. If they would renege on the ceasefire or hostages because Israel is interrogating a co-conspirator/pawn under duress, they were never sincere about it to begin with and just wanted a show of weakness in the IDF counter attack.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/
Priorities. My understanding is he is very much not happy about the hostage swap.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 24, 2023, 03:41:02 PM
Or could it be because of the video showing hostages being brought back to Al Shifa on October 7th and a myriad of other things they found involving the hospital? Its a bit Hamas PR-ish to say there is nothing of interest there to be found involving anything with the hospital but just some old empty tunnels.
And I'm not exactly seeing the correlation in your last point. They didn't bomb the hospital, they didn't demolish the Hospital Director's house, they didn't execute any of them. If they would renege on the ceasefire or hostages because Israel is interrogating a co-conspirator/pawn under duress, they were never sincere about it to begin with and just wanted a show of weakness in the IDF counter attack.
On the first point, hostages being brought back to the hospital was already known, Hamas had said previously (like immediately) that they took some hostages to hospitals for treatment. That isn't really nefarious nor unusual.
And unless I missed it, they didn't find anything in the tunnels. All the videos I've seen show they are empty. There is certainly nothing consistent with a command and control center. And given that they were built by Israel in 1983, there existence is not surprising.
I may have missed something, but I've been following the IDF reports pretty closely. Do you think Israel has provided sufficient evidence to validate their assault on the hospital, nonetheless arresting doctors and staff? If so, pointing out particulars would be appreciated, as I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong.
I'll note, it is not Hamas PR'ish, its what most of the world's (including many western nations) media, and humanitarian organizations are reporting, where they are saying that the evidence provided is severely lacking.
I will note, that I truly believe Israel thought the tunnels were being used as a command and control center, and that Hamas was operating out of the hospital. So I don't think they were intentionally going after a hospital based on nothing. I just think they were wrong on the intel. I wish they had simply said something like:
"We were operating on intel from captured Hamas operatives, and detailed records from prior Gaza incursions indicating that Hamas was operating command and control operations from tunnels/bunkers under the hospital. Upon infiltrating the tunnels, it appears that they had perviously abandoned those operations, and although Hamas members were seen in the vicinity of the hospital, and weapons were found, as well as videos showing hostages were brought to the hospital, the hospital was no longer functioning as a Hamas command/controls center."
A statement like that would go a long way in terms of image control. Especially given how they bungled a lot of the data releases that damaged their credibility.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 24, 2023, 03:41:02 PM
Or could it be because of the video showing hostages being brought back to Al Shifa on October 7th and a myriad of other things they found involving the hospital? Its a bit Hamas PR-ish to say there is nothing of interest there to be found involving anything with the hospital but just some old empty tunnels.
And I'm not exactly seeing the correlation in your last point. They didn't bomb the hospital, they didn't demolish the Hospital Director's house, they didn't execute any of them. If they would renege on the ceasefire or hostages because Israel is interrogating a co-conspirator/pawn under duress, they were never sincere about it to begin with and just wanted a show of weakness in the IDF counter attack.
Regarding the second point.
Arresting doctors, and the hospital director is highly unusual based on what data they've shown, it also created a lot of uproar in the Arab community. Within the Arab community, this was viewed as more innocent (and highly respected) civilians were illegally detained. Many in the Arab community view these as the equivalent of hostages, which is why I feared it could impact the deal. Fortunately, it didn't impact the release and some hostages are now home.
I just viewed it as a risky move that was unlikely to provide any useful/meaningful intel that they already do not know.
Quote from: forgetful on November 24, 2023, 06:48:08 PM
On the first point, hostages being brought back to the hospital was already known, Hamas had said previously (like immediately) that they took some hostages to hospitals for treatment. That isn't really nefarious nor unusual.
Yea, except they passed no less than half a dozen hospitals between the border and Al Shifa if they were really seeking treatment....
Quote from: forgetful on November 24, 2023, 06:51:57 PM
Regarding the second point.
Arresting doctors, and the hospital director is highly unusual based on what data they've shown, it also created a lot of uproar in the Arab community. Within the Arab community, this was viewed as more innocent (and highly respected) civilians were illegally detained. Many in the Arab community view these as the equivalent of hostages, which is why I feared it could impact the deal. Fortunately, it didn't impact the release and some hostages are now home.
I just viewed it as a risky move that was unlikely to provide any useful/meaningful intel that they already do not know.
Disagree on the latter. We have no idea what the IDF was seeking, had in their intel about Al Shifa, etc..
This isn't directed at you personally, but I find it curious that, for many, seemingly 1000% of the burden of proof falls on Israel, and immediately. Hamas/Gazan government word is taken as gospel that Israel has to dispel. And that the IDF needs to show any and all intel or findings as a campaign is actively going on otherwise they are going to be painted as liars.
Yes, we know that Israel has lied plenty before. But when Hamas kills hundreds of civilians in a day and then violently takes hostages back to Gaza, their version of taking them to a key building (again bypassing not just one but many medical facilities in the meantime) "for treatment" is thought of as "oh thats reasonable". Same as 500 dead in a hospital bombing.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 24, 2023, 08:07:58 PM
Yea, except they passed no less than half a dozen hospitals between the border and Al Shifa if they were really seeking treatment....
Disagree on the latter. We have no idea what the IDF was seeking, had in their intel about Al Shifa, etc..
This isn't directed at you personally, but I find it curious that, for many, seemingly 1000% of the burden of proof falls on Israel, and immediately. Hamas/Gazan government word is taken as gospel that Israel has to dispel. And that the IDF needs to show any and all intel or findings as a campaign is actively going on otherwise they are going to be painted as liars.
Yes, we know that Israel has lied plenty before. But when Hamas kills hundreds of civilians in a day and then violently takes hostages back to Gaza, their version of taking them to a key building (again bypassing not just one but many medical facilities in the meantime) "for treatment" is thought of as "oh thats reasonable". Same as 500 dead in a hospital bombing.
💯
It is a 10-year-old story that reads like it was written yesterday. And it goes precisely to this point that Israel is required to explain everything, and the Palestinians have to explain nothing.
Very good read
An Insider's Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth
A former AP correspondent explains how and why reporters get Israel so wrong, and why it matters
BY MATTI FRIEDMAN
AUGUST 25, 2014
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
---
What Is Important About the Israel Story, and What Is Not
A reporter working in the international press corps here understands quickly that what is important in the Israel-Palestinian story is Israel. If you follow mainstream coverage, you will find nearly no real analysis of Palestinian society or ideologies, profiles of armed Palestinian groups, or investigation of Palestinian government. Palestinians are not taken seriously as agents of their own fate. The West has decided that Palestinians should want a state alongside Israel, so that opinion is attributed to them as fact, though anyone who has spent time with actual Palestinians understands that things are (understandably, in my opinion) more complicated. Who they are and what they want is not important: The story mandates that they exist as passive victims of the party that matters.
Corruption, for example, is a pressing concern for many Palestinians under the rule of the Palestinian Authority, but when I and another reporter once suggested an article on the subject, we were informed by the bureau chief that Palestinian corruption was "not the story." (Israeli corruption was, and we covered it at length.)
Will the IDF flood Hamas tunnels with sea water to kill terrorists?
https://worldisraelnews.com/will-idf-flood-hamas-tunnels/
One of the options the IDF is considering in order to strike a decisive blow against Hamas is to flood its vast tunnel networks with sea water, columnist David Ignatius wrote in The Washington Post Sunday after interviewing numerous military sources.
The Gaza Strip, the veteran journalist pointed out, is conveniently located on the Mediterranean Sea. The IDF must be thinking, he wrote, if there's a real need to risk soldiers' lives by sending them into narrow and booby-trapped corridors.
----
The precedent for this was Egypt 10 years ago (and I might add no one cared when the Egyptians killed Palestinians, only when the Jews do it).
https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10/22/floods-and-bombs-this-is-how-egypt-handled-hamas-smuggling-tunnels/
Interestingly, just about a decade ago, Egypt faced a similar challenge to what Israel is going through now.
ISIS terrorists, who had infiltrated from Gaza, carried out deadly terror attacks in Sinai. They used the smuggling tunnels leading from the strip to Egypt, the economic anchor of Hamas. Estimates say that between 10-15% of the terror organization's budget came from taxes on goods that pass through the tunnels in Rafah as well as from issuing licenses, for an annual income of about one billion dollars.
Such reports embarrassed Cairo, and an official was quick to accuse Hamas of transporting chemical weapons to terror groups in Sinai.
As such, el-Sissi dealt a great blow to Hamas. Since his rise to power, approximately 1,900 tunnels have been destroyed.
Egypt did not hold back: the tunnels were shelled from the air, destroyed with controlled explosions on the ground, and flooded with sewage water or water pumped directly from the Mediterranean Sea. Some reports said even chemical substances were used, which, if true, turned the tunnels into death traps.
October 2014 saw another turn in the war on the tunnels. Thirty-three Egyptian soldiers were killed in an ISIS terror attack, and as far as the country's Supreme Council of the Armed Forces was concerned, the die was cast.
Over the next three years, Egypt destroyed 3,000 residential buildings in Rafah near the border. Satellite footage showed entire neighborhoods turned to rubble.
As far as I understand, the Israeli released Palestinians were majority women and kids.
Those were the folks that were convicted attempted or actual murderers?
Quote from: JWags85 on November 24, 2023, 08:07:58 PM
Yea, except they passed no less than half a dozen hospitals between the border and Al Shifa if they were really seeking treatment....
That's certainly a good point.
Quote from: JWags85 on November 24, 2023, 08:07:58 PM
Disagree on the latter. We have no idea what the IDF was seeking, had in their intel about Al Shifa, etc..
This isn't directed at you personally, but I find it curious that, for many, seemingly 1000% of the burden of proof falls on Israel, and immediately. Hamas/Gazan government word is taken as gospel that Israel has to dispel. And that the IDF needs to show any and all intel or findings as a campaign is actively going on otherwise they are going to be painted as liars.
Yes, we know that Israel has lied plenty before. But when Hamas kills hundreds of civilians in a day and then violently takes hostages back to Gaza, their version of taking them to a key building (again bypassing not just one but many medical facilities in the meantime) "for treatment" is thought of as "oh thats reasonable". Same as 500 dead in a hospital bombing.
I don't disagree with you that for some, they immediately reject anything Israel says and are more apt to accept Hamas statements. I can't speak for why people would do so, but there are studies showing that for certain demographics that are active in protesting/advocating for oppressed individuals, they always associate with, and vehemently support the oppressed side, and automatically demonize those they view as the oppressor. They typically accept violent actions against the "oppressor," and do put the burden of proof for any actions/events on the "oppressor." For these groups, Palestinians have been viewed as an oppressed group.
For the record, I do not ascribe to the above positions.
I've said it before, but personally, I don't really believe anything anyone says during a war, unless they support it with evidence. That includes the US when we are at war.
In general, I place the burden of proof on the group making the primary claim, and try to do as much independent research as I can.
For instance, when Hamas claimed 500 died in the one hospital strike, they need to prove this. The burden of proof is on Hamas. Similarly, they claimed it was an Israeli strike. They were the only ones who could access the site and provide evidence. Until they provide evidence of their claims, I'm not going to believe them.
For Israel. They attacked hospitals, claiming they were command and control infrastructure. They are making the claim, and have access to all video footage of the hospital, and access to the entire grounds. It is their burden of proof to demonstrate it was indeed a command and control center. No one else can prove or disprove the claim besides Israel. Their evidence so far is lacking, which is why most of the world's media remains critical, and why I remain skeptical.
Regarding the two hostages showing up at the hospital. Personally, I don't think that is evidence of a command and control center at the hospital. You do make a good point on asking why they bypassed other hospitals (I don't know Gaza well enough to know if they would have).
So for the time being, I remain skeptical. At some point, I think they need to provide much better evidence validating their strikes (e.g. hospitals and schools). That doesn't have to be today, although I think politically definitive evidence would be wise to present, if available.
If not, personally, I'd rather they presented nothing right now, and simply said all evidence validating our claims will be presented to the international community at the end of our mission, than to present what they have so far.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 22, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
@CBS_Herridge
https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1727131445528064453
@CBSNews obtained intel alert which points to "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" tied to Israel-Hamas war" + the "increase in civilian casualties raises the likelihood that violent extremist threat actors will seek to conduct attacks..."
I'm trying to figure out if its safe enough to go get a quart of milk, but Catherine Herridge seems to be focused on subpoenas re Hunter dick pictures.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 24, 2023, 11:20:28 PM
I'm trying to figure out if its safe enough to go get a quart of milk, but Catherine Herridge seems to be focused on subpoenas re Hunter dick pictures.
Do you think warnings of terrorism in the US are a joke?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 24, 2023, 10:19:16 PM
As far as I understand, the Israeli released Palestinians were majority women and kids.
Those were the folks that were convicted attempted or actual murderers?
The wording of "kids" has been controversial.
The Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) defines "children" as anyone under 19. The media has accepted this definition.
So when GHM claims 13,000 have been killed, and 5,000 were "children," the belief is the vast majority of these "children" were males between 15 and 18 that were either Jihadi or Hamas fighters. The vast majority of all killed were associated with Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and/or Hamas or a forced human shield.
Earlier, I posted that the Gaza Health Ministry stated policy is to
not separate civilians from enemy combatants. They will let others figure this out after the fact.
Other estimates of the number of innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of
Israeli attacks is small, in the 10 to 15% range of all killed (if we are to believe the total number of 13,000).
And recall that PIJ and Hamas rockets are not well constructed, so about 20% of them malfunction and land in Gaza. Estimates are these failed rockets that have killed as many innocent Palestinian civilians as Israel.
Where is the worldwide condemnation of the PIJ/Hamas rockets and UN resolutions to call on PIJ/Hamas to stop firing them to protect innocent Palestinians?
---
https://news.sky.com/story/the-palestinian-prisoners-who-could-be-released-by-israel-13013758
A list of the Palestinian prisoners who could be released has been published by the Israeli justice ministry.Sky News has analysed the list and found:
Around 10% of the people on the list are women - 33 of them to be precise
A similar number aged 19 or over -
meaning 90% of those on the list are aged 18 or under
Of those aged 18 or under, five are aged 14, six are 15-years-old, 37 are 16-years-old, 76 are 17-years-old and 146 are 18-years-oldOne of the most well-known names on the list is Israa Jaabis. She was sentenced to more than 10 years in prison after a gas cylinder in her possession exploded at a police checkpoint.
The now 38-year-old gained media attention when she requested Israel pay for surgery to repair the burns and injuries she sustained during the fire.
The authorities turned down her request, according to Palestinian media agency, Alray.
The youngest of the 33 females is Nofoze Hammad, aged 15. Her offence is recorded as "attempted murder, support for terrorism, crimes against justice". Hammad was to serve a 12-year-sentence after stabbing a Jewish woman, according to local news reports.
The husband of Moriah Cohen, the woman hurt in the attack, told Channel 12: "The children were with my wife when she was stabbed and we promised them that they would never see her [Hammad] again and that she would be in prison for the rest of her life.
While none of the prisoners eligible for release were charged with murder, Hammad is one of 117 individuals who have "attempted murder" mentioned in the offences recorded next to their names.Other offences include supporting terrorism, arson, handling explosives and throwing stones, with 74 individuals accused of using rocks to attack Israelis.
Half of those on the list do not have links with any specific organisations. Around 50 people are recorded as being associated with Hamas.
While 300 names have been published, a spokesperson for the Israeli Prime Minister's office confirmed to Sky News not all of the people on the list would be released.
"Since the deal says three Palestinian prisoners for each hostage, we are preparing 300 in case the terrorists will be kind enough to release 100 hostages, which even then will only mean 40% of them," he said.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 24, 2023, 09:58:07 PM
It is a 10-year-old story that reads like it was written yesterday. And it goes precisely to this point that Israel is required to explain everything, and the Palestinians have to explain nothing.
Very good read
An Insider's Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth
A former AP correspondent explains how and why reporters get Israel so wrong, and why it matters
BY MATTI FRIEDMAN
AUGUST 25, 2014
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
---
What Is Important About the Israel Story, and What Is Not
A reporter working in the international press corps here understands quickly that what is important in the Israel-Palestinian story is Israel. If you follow mainstream coverage, you will find nearly no real analysis of Palestinian society or ideologies, profiles of armed Palestinian groups, or investigation of Palestinian government. Palestinians are not taken seriously as agents of their own fate. The West has decided that Palestinians should want a state alongside Israel, so that opinion is attributed to them as fact, though anyone who has spent time with actual Palestinians understands that things are (understandably, in my opinion) more complicated. Who they are and what they want is not important: The story mandates that they exist as passive victims of the party that matters.
Corruption, for example, is a pressing concern for many Palestinians under the rule of the Palestinian Authority, but when I and another reporter once suggested an article on the subject, we were informed by the bureau chief that Palestinian corruption was "not the story." (Israeli corruption was, and we covered it at length.)
Nonsense. There was plenty of coverage about Palestinian corruption. In fact, I pointed out that PLO corruption was one of the main reasons that Palestinians voted for the political wing of Hamas. (You ignored this.)
BTW, is there any clearly biased news source that you don't just lap up like a beaten down old sheep dog?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 25, 2023, 06:58:11 AM
Nonsense. There was plenty of coverage about Palestinian corruption. In fact, I pointed out that PLO corruption was one of the main reasons that Palestinians voted for the political wing of Hamas. (You ignored this.)
BTW, is there any clearly biased news source that you don't just lap up like a beaten down old sheep dog?
It was written by a former AP reporter/editor who covered the conflict for many years. He detailed the policies of AP, in covering the conflict. The AP is/was arguably the largest and most important—western press organization covering this conflict. So, AP's policies matter a lot as it is the most important source for the Western world to understand what is happening.
Try reading the story; you might learn something.
And if you're saying the AP is a clearly biased source, I agree. They are biased pro-Palestinian and have been for decades.
Quote from: forgetful on November 24, 2023, 10:28:00 PM
I don't disagree with you that for some, they immediately reject anything Israel says and are more apt to accept Hamas statements. I can't speak for why people would do so, but there are studies showing that for certain demographics that are active in protesting/advocating for oppressed individuals, they always associate with, and vehemently support the oppressed side, and automatically demonize those they view as the oppressor.
134 pages in, and forget breaks his record for projection and gaslighting. The scary part is he is unable to see this is a perfect description of him.
Quote from: forgetful on November 24, 2023, 10:28:00 PM
So for the time being, I remain skeptical. At some point, I think they need to provide much better evidence validating their strikes (e.g. hospitals and schools). That doesn't have to be today, although I think politically definitive evidence would be wise to present, if available.
If not, personally, I'd rather they presented nothing right now, and simply said all evidence validating our claims will be presented to the international community at the end of our mission, than to present what they have so far.
There are only two people left on the planet who hold this position: Hamas and Forget.
Jake Sullivan called the hospital a command center. The EU called the hospital a command center. Amnesty International called the hospital a command center (10 years ago!). I posted all of these earlier.
So, why does Israel have to continuously prove what the world has long accepted? Why don't you demand that Hamas prove it is not?
And what evidence would satisfy you? As it appears the answer is none, you will never accept this hospital was a command center.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 07:03:25 AM
Written by a former AP reporter/editor who covered the conflict for many years.
Are you saying the AP is a clearly biased source? Because if you are, I agree. They are biased pro-Palestinian and have been for decades.
LOL...how would you come to that conclusion based on what I wrote? Her idea that Palestinian corruption wasn't covered is simply false. It was covered extensively. Just Google it up and you will see plenty of articles dating way back that mention it repeatedly - including some from the Associated Press!
You can't see that this is a clearly biased source, publishing an article from a clearly biased writer who says things that are not entirely accurate and can be easily refuted with five minutes of research. So not are you not a serious person, you aren't really a smart one either.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 25, 2023, 07:23:22 AM
LOL...how would you come to that conclusion based on what I wrote? Her idea that Palestinian corruption wasn't covered is simply false. It was covered extensively. Just Google it up and you will see plenty of articles dating way back that mention it repeatedly - including some from the Associated Press!
You can't see that this is a clearly biased source, publishing an article from a clearly biased writer who says things that are not entirely accurate and can be easily refuted with five minutes of research. So not are you not a serious person, you aren't really a smart one either.
First, if you actually read it, you would see that the reporter is a man.
And if you actually read it, you would see this was in the next paragraph after the part I quote above.
---
Israeli actions are analyzed and criticized, and every flaw in Israeli society is aggressively reported. In one seven-week period, from Nov. 8 to Dec. 16, 2011, I decided to count the stories coming out of our bureau on the various moral failings of Israeli society—proposed legislation meant to suppress the media, the rising influence of Orthodox Jews, unauthorized settlement outposts, gender segregation, and so forth. I counted 27 separate articles, an average of a story every two days. In a very conservative estimate,
this seven-week tally was higher than the total number of significantly critical stories about Palestinian government and society, including the totalitarian Islamists of Hamas, that our bureau had published in the preceding three years.
---
Googling billions and billions of pages to find one story does not prove your point.
Two million Palestinians live in Israel (but, wait, it is an apartheid state?).
Why are these two million Palestinians not protesting inside Israel or in East Jerusalem? For the same reason they call themselves Arab, they want nothing to do with Palestinians. They live in Israel to get away from the death cult and better their lives.
---
Report: 93% of Polled Arab Residents of Jerusalem Prefer Israeli Rule to Palestinian Authority
https://www.algemeiner.com/2021/12/14/report-93-of-polled-arab-residents-of-jerusalem-prefer-israeli-rule-to-palestinian-authority
A new poll of Arab residents of Jerusalem by a Palestinian media outlet found that 93% of them prefer to remain under Israeli rule and would not give up their Israeli identity card.
Arab residents of Jerusalem are, for the most part, not Israeli citizens, but can request citizenship if they wish. Those who are not citizens carry a special ID card allowing them freedom of movement within Israel proper.
The poll conducted by the Shfa news outlet (https://www.shfanews.net/post/102082) asked 1,200 Arab Jerusalemites — none of them Israeli citizens — regarding their preference for living under Israeli or Palestinian rule in the future.
1,116 of the respondents said they prefer for Israel to continue to rule Jerusalem. 84 said they preferred the Palestinian Authority, but 79 of those said they would not give up their current identity card.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 07:30:16 AM
First, if you actually read it, you would see that the reporter is a man.
And if you actually read it, you would see this was in the next paragraph after the part I quote above.
---
Israeli actions are analyzed and criticized, and every flaw in Israeli society is aggressively reported. In one seven-week period, from Nov. 8 to Dec. 16, 2011, I decided to count the stories coming out of our bureau on the various moral failings of Israeli society—proposed legislation meant to suppress the media, the rising influence of Orthodox Jews, unauthorized settlement outposts, gender segregation, and so forth. I counted 27 separate articles, an average of a story every two days. In a very conservative estimate, this seven-week tally was higher than the total number of significantly critical stories about Palestinian government and society, including the totalitarian Islamists of Hamas, that our bureau had published in the preceding three years.
---
Googling billions and billions of pages to find one story does not prove your point.
Sorry I misgendered the writer.
But him counting stories over a seven week period 12 years ago isn't exactly a reliable source either. (Except for you of course because lap up this kind of stuff without question.)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 07:35:38 AM
Two million Palestinians live in Israel (but, wait, it is an apartheid state?).
Why are these two million Palestinians not protesting inside Israel or in East Jerusalem? For the same reason they call themselves Arab, they want nothing to do with Palestinians. They live in Israel to get away from the death cult and better their lives.
---
Report: 93% of Polled Arab Residents of Jerusalem Prefer Israeli Rule to Palestinian Authority
https://www.algemeiner.com/2021/12/14/report-93-of-polled-arab-residents-of-jerusalem-prefer-israeli-rule-to-palestinian-authority
A new poll of Arab residents of Jerusalem by a Palestinian media outlet found that 93% of them prefer to remain under Israeli rule and would not give up their Israeli identity card.
Arab residents of Jerusalem are, for the most part, not Israeli citizens, but can request citizenship if they wish. Those who are not citizens carry a special ID card allowing them freedom of movement within Israel proper.
The poll conducted by the Shfa news outlet (https://www.shfanews.net/post/102082) asked 1,200 Arab Jerusalemites — none of them Israeli citizens — regarding their preference for living under Israeli or Palestinian rule in the future.
1,116 of the respondents said they prefer for Israel to continue to rule Jerusalem. 84 said they preferred the Palestinian Authority, but 79 of those said they would not give up their current identity card.
Huh. How about that?
Do you realize how what you just posted above is inconsistent with what you posted earlier?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 25, 2023, 07:36:52 AM
Sorry I misgendered the writer.
But him counting stories over a seven week period 12 years ago isn't exactly a reliable source either. (Except for you of course because lap up this kind of stuff without question.)
You misgender him because you did not read it. You claim moral superiority for not reading it because it does not fit your worldview.
Try reading it, what are you afraid of?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 25, 2023, 07:39:17 AM
Huh. How about that?
Do you realize how what you just posted above is inconsistent with what you posted earlier?
Perfectly consistent. The corruption among Palestinian leaders is so high that Palestinians living in East Jerusalem would instead be associated with Israel.
But Western Progressives like you think you know what Palestinians want ...
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
A reporter working in the international press corps here understands quickly that what is important in the Israel-Palestinian story is Israel. If you follow mainstream coverage, you will find nearly no real analysis of Palestinian society or ideologies, profiles of armed Palestinian groups, or investigation of Palestinian government. Palestinians are not taken seriously as agents of their own fate. The West has decided that Palestinians should want a state alongside Israel, so that opinion is attributed to them as fact, though anyone who has spent time with actual Palestinians understands that things are (understandably, in my opinion) more complicated. Who they are and what they want is not important: The story mandates that they exist as passive victims of the party that matters.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 07:50:15 AM
Perfectly consistent. The corruption among Palestinian leaders is so high that Palestinians living in East Jerusalem would instead be associated with Israel.
But Western Progressives like you think you know what Palestinians want ...
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
A reporter working in the international press corps here understands quickly that what is important in the Israel-Palestinian story is Israel. If you follow mainstream coverage, you will find nearly no real analysis of Palestinian society or ideologies, profiles of armed Palestinian groups, or investigation of Palestinian government. Palestinians are not taken seriously as agents of their own fate. The West has decided that Palestinians should want a state alongside Israel, so that opinion is attributed to them as fact, though anyone who has spent time with actual Palestinians understands that things are (understandably, in my opinion) more complicated. Who they are and what they want is not important: The story mandates that they exist as passive victims of the party that matters.
I have posted what the Palestinians want dummy. You earlier claimed they don't want what they said they want.
Now you are saying the same thing I have been saying from the beginning
My God you can't even keep your own arguments straight.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 07:44:52 AM
You misgender him because you did not read it. You claim moral superiority for not reading it because it does not fit your worldview.
Try reading it, what are you afraid of?
I read it. I think it was full of victimizing exaggerations. The kind of stuff you fall for repeatedly.
Lol
Throwing stones is a long way from this:
QuoteThe Palestinians who will be released in the impending deal are convicted terrorists who are in prison because they tried to murder Israelis
.
https://apple.news/AsN7K5VKqT6WQIsmfBY87Vw
#fromtherivertothesea
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 25, 2023, 08:41:26 AM
Lol
Throwing stones is a long way from this:
.
Actually, stone throwing is a serious offense in the middle east and has resulted in many deaths.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 06:36:44 AM
Do you think warnings of terrorism in the US are a joke?
Do you think drinking from the firehouse of right wing media and proclaiming suspected terror attacks on the Canadien border is a joke?
(https://media.tenor.com/J5-iI8r1qwMAAAAC/dont-forget-poop.gif)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 07:30:16 AM
Googling billions and billions of pages to find one story does not prove your point.
(https://media.tenor.com/GTIyUxW45dwAAAAC/glasshouse-stone.gif)
Quote from: reinko on November 25, 2023, 10:18:44 AM
Do you think drinking from the firehouse of right wing media and proclaiming suspected terror attacks on the Canadien border is a joke?
(https://media.tenor.com/J5-iI8r1qwMAAAAC/dont-forget-poop.gif)
There's an automobile accident on the border, and Fox News goes wild calling it a terrorist attack.
All of America watches police getting pummeled during a violent coup attempt at the U.S. Capitol on live TV, and Fox News shrugs its shoulders about a tourist visit.
"Women and children account for nearly 70 percent of all deaths reported in Gaza even though most combatants are men — an "extraordinary statistic," Rick Brennan, the regional emergency director for the World Health Organization's Eastern Mediterranean office".
Sobering read. Hell on earth.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html
Israel censoring released hostage media statements?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 25, 2023, 10:42:18 AM
"Women and children account for nearly 70 percent of all deaths reported in Gaza even though most combatants are men — an "extraordinary statistic," Rick Brennan, the regional emergency director for the World Health Organization's Eastern Mediterranean office".
Sobering read. Hell on earth.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html
I have it on good authority that the vast majority of those children are 15- to 18-year-old soldiers.
@jeremyscahill
(Intercept reporter)
The list of Palestinians to be potentially released by Israel has 300 names:
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones
Israel's own list of the 300 Palestinians proposed for release states that 233 of them are "במעצר" meaning under arrest, meaning not convicted. There is also extensive documentation on the lack of due process & basic rights afforded Palestinians accused by Israel of crimes. This is a fact that has been widely documented by major international human rights organizations for decades.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 25, 2023, 11:11:31 AM
@jeremyscahill
(Intercept reporter)
The list of Palestinians to be potentially released by Israel has 300 names:
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones
Israel's own list of the 300 Palestinians proposed for release states that 233 of them are "במעצר" meaning under arrest, meaning not convicted. There is also extensive documentation on the lack of due process & basic rights afforded Palestinians accused by Israel of crimes. This is a fact that has been widely documented by major international human rights organizations for decades.
You mean 300 terrorists
This whole discussion is pointless. Western leftists see everything through the lens of power, and will support whatever side is seen as having less power. That's why they can hand waive a livestreamed attack specifically targeting civilians, including rape and baby murder and immediately turn their attention to the plight of the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians have less power so there is literally nothing they can do that's beyond the pale. Once you realize that is their perspective, it makes any further discussion irrelevant.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on November 25, 2023, 11:45:49 AM
This whole discussion is pointless. Western leftists see everything through the lens of power, and will support whatever side is seen as having less power. That's why they can hand waive a livestreamed attack specifically targeting civilians, including rape and baby murder and immediately turn their attention to the plight of the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians have less power so there is literally nothing they can do that's beyond the pale. Once you realize that is their perspective, it makes any further discussion irrelevant.
Has anyone here supported the 10/7 terrorist attack?
Good straw man
Quote from: JWags85 on November 24, 2023, 08:07:58 PM
Yea, except they passed no less than half a dozen hospitals between the border and Al Shifa if they were really seeking treatment....
Disagree on the latter. We have no idea what the IDF was seeking, had in their intel about Al Shifa, etc..
Quick Question JWags, as I respect your opinion, and think you are very level headed in your approach/understanding of the situation.
Do you think that Israel has presented sufficient evidence of hospitals being used as command and control centers in this conflict (so far)?
To clarify, that is different than having used those facilities. I think everyone will agree that they used the facilities to varying extents. I highlight the difference because there is a high threshold of evidence required by international law for a hospital to lose its special protections. Most of the international media has been critical, saying they have insufficient evidence to nullify the special protection status so far.
I think we can also agree, that they don't need to present all their evidence now, so I'm only analyzing it through the veil of what is currently available, and will modify my stance as more evidence/data is released.
It's also fair to say that you will withhold any decisions until all evidence is available. Because if this wasn't a message board for random discussions, but rather part of formal decision making processes, I would strongly advocate for withholding any statements/decisions until all data/evidence is available. So if that is your stance, we are also in agreement.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 25, 2023, 11:46:57 AM
Has anyone here supported the 10/7 terrorist attack?
Good straw man
We could also make a straw man that western "rightists" (I don't think that's a thing) also cannot ever levy an ounce of criticism towards Israel's foreign policy. But we (hopefully) won't because most here are not dumb enough to think that that's true or have such a simplistic black and white view of the situation.
Quote from: forgetful on November 25, 2023, 12:07:41 PM
Quick Question JWags, as I respect your opinion, and think you are very level headed in your approach/understanding of the situation.
Do you think that Israel has presented sufficient evidence of hospitals being used as command and control centers in this conflict (so far)?
To clarify, that is different than having used those facilities. I think everyone will agree that they used the facilities to varying extents. I highlight the difference because there is a high threshold of evidence required by international law for a hospital to lose its special protections. Most of the international media has been critical, saying they have insufficient evidence to nullify the special protection status so far.
I think we can also agree, that they don't need to present all their evidence now, so I'm only analyzing it through the veil of what is currently available, and will modify my stance as more evidence/data is released.
It's also fair to say that you will withhold any decisions until all evidence is available. Because if this wasn't a message board for random discussions, but rather part of formal decision making processes, I would strongly advocate for withholding any statements/decisions until all data/evidence is available. So if that is your stance, we are also in agreement.
Appreciate both the question and your complimentary phrasing of it.
As to the question, my answer is two fold. On one hand, I think the evidence present by Israel is a bit insufficient, but, Ive frankly viewed it as teaser info. Not "this is all we have" but more "this is touching the surface of what we've found/what we know about".
But also, I agree with your last paragraph, I'm willing to discuss it in the hypothetical because I'm just a nobody civilian on a messageboard. I firmly believe that the IDF/Mossad knows far more than what we've been given and they have very little need or responsibility to share more during active military operations. Many who seem to need to take everything at immediate face value or think that Israel should be sharing EVERYTHING seem to be doing so as a way to continue to negatively frame Israel as merchants of wanton violence and gleeful genocide.
Ive said it before, but again, if Israel wanted to or felt it prudent for their goals, they could (and have) wipe out city blocks. They've obliterated houses to get to Hamas leaders, collateral damage be damned. I think they've approached Al Shifa cautiously for a variety of reasons.
Going back to the Hamas PR quip I made earlier, Ive become more and more convinced and ingrained in the idea that there are 3 parties at play here. Israel, Palestinians, and Hamas. Unfortunately, many MANY people refuse to make that distinction. Some people are happy to lump Palestinians in with Hamas to vilify them, while some people are more than happy to scoop Hamas into a group with Palestinians to victimize and excuse them. Hell, I saw people praising Hamas yesterday for their kind and exemplary treatment of hostages :o
I take Israel/IDF reports with a grain of salt. I like to weigh a variety of news reports/NGO statements in regards to the Palestinians in Gaza. I'm completely fine saying I believe almost nothing that Hamas or their fugazi Gazan government agencies say unless verified by an outlet I actually trust.
Good stuff wags
Do you believe Israel should be held to a higher standard compared to Hamas?
X May Lose Up to $75 Million in Revenue as More Advertisers Pull Out
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/24/business/x-elon-musk-advertisers.html
X, the social media company formerly known as Twitter, could lose as much as $75 million in advertising revenue by the end of the year as dozens of major brands pause their marketing campaigns after its owner, Elon Musk, endorsed an antisemitic conspiracy theory this month.
Internal documents viewed by The New York Times this week show that the company is in a more difficult position than previously known and that concerns about Mr. Musk and the platform have spread far beyond companies including IBM, Apple and Disney, which paused their advertising campaigns on X last week. The documents list more than 200 ad units of companies from the likes of Airbnb, Amazon, Coca-Cola and Microsoft, many of which have halted or are considering pausing their ads on the social network.
The documents come from X's sales team and are meant to track the impact of all the advertising lapses this month, including those by companies that have already paused and others that may be at risk of doing so. They list how much ad revenue X employees fear the company could lose through the end of the year if advertisers do not return.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 25, 2023, 11:11:31 AM
@jeremyscahill
(Intercept reporter)
The list of Palestinians to be potentially released by Israel has 300 names:
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones
Israel's own list of the 300 Palestinians proposed for release states that 233 of them are "במעצר" meaning under arrest, meaning not convicted. There is also extensive documentation on the lack of due process & basic rights afforded Palestinians accused by Israel of crimes. This is a fact that has been widely documented by major international human rights organizations for decades.
The Palestinians in their prisons are not Israeli citizens. Their crimes were not even committed in Israel but were committed in the occupied land.
So, they are not subject to the same rights as an Israeli citizen. So, the argument about due process does not apply to them. It applies to citizens only.
Every democracy does this. The US reports reports and detains migrants without a full blow trial. Anyone remember "kids on cages" that got AOC to cry about?
We hold foreigners accused of crimes in detention centers without a trial. See Guantanamo Bay.
You may not like it, but every country does this with non-citizens. So, what Israel is doing is no different than anyone else.
But Israel is held to a different standard.
-----
Regarding the list above ...
The Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) defines "children" as anyone under 19. The media has accepted this definition.
So when GHM claims 13,000 have been killed, and 5,000 were "children," the belief is the vast majority of these "children" were males between 15 and 18 that were either Jihadi or Hamas fighters. The vast majority of all killed were associated with Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and/or Hamas or a forced human shield.
Earlier, I posted that the Gaza Health Ministry stated that the policy is
not to separate civilians from enemy combatants. They will let others figure this out after the fact.
The NY Times story above clearly states they are using "Gazan Official" data. So, this is wrong as this poster relies on suspect data to validate his worldview.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 25, 2023, 11:08:33 AM
I have it on good authority that the vast majority of those children are 15- to 18-year-old soldiers.
Other estimates of the number of innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of Israeli attacks is small, in the 10 to 15% range of all killed (if we are to believe the total number of 13,000).
And recall that PIJ and Hamas rockets are not well constructed, so about 20% of them malfunction and land in Gaza. Estimates are these failed rockets that have killed as many innocent Palestinian civilians as Israel.
Where is the worldwide condemnation of the PIJ/Hamas rockets and UN resolutions to call on PIJ/Hamas to stop firing them to protect innocent Palestinians?
---
https://news.sky.com/story/the-palestinian-prisoners-who-could-be-released-by-israel-13013758
A list of the Palestinian prisoners who could be released has been published by the Israeli justice ministry.
Sky News has analysed the list and found:
Around 10% of the people on the list are women - 33 of them to be preciseA similar number aged 19 or over - meaning 90% of those on the list are aged 18 or under
Of those aged 18 or under,
five are aged 14, six are 15-years-old, 37 are 16-years-old, 76 are 17-years-old and 146 are 18-years-oldOne of the most well-known names on the list is Israa Jaabis. She was sentenced to more than 10 years in prison after a gas cylinder in her possession exploded at a police checkpoint.
The now 38-year-old gained media attention when she requested Israel pay for surgery to repair the burns and injuries she sustained during the fire.
The authorities turned down her request, according to Palestinian media agency, Alray.
The youngest of the 33 females is Nofoze Hammad, aged 15. Her offence is recorded as "attempted murder, support for terrorism, crimes against justice". Hammad was to serve a 12-year-sentence after stabbing a Jewish woman, according to local news reports.
The husband of Moriah Cohen, the woman hurt in the attack, told Channel 12: "The children were with my wife when she was stabbed and we promised them that they would never see her [Hammad] again and that she would be in prison for the rest of her life.
While none of the prisoners eligible for release were charged with murder, Hammad is one of 117 individuals who have "attempted murder" mentioned in the offences recorded next to their names.Other offences include supporting terrorism, arson, handling explosives and throwing stones, with 74 individuals accused of using rocks to attack Israelis.
Half of those on the list do not have links with any specific organisations. Around 50 people are recorded as being associated with Hamas.
While 300 names have been published, a spokesperson for the Israeli Prime Minister's office confirmed to Sky News not all of the people on the list would be released.
"Since the deal says three Palestinian prisoners for each hostage, we are preparing 300 in case the terrorists will be kind enough to release 100 hostages, which even then will only mean 40% of them," he said.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 03:30:30 PM
The Palestinians in their prisons are not Israeli citizens. Their crimes were not even committed in Israel but were committed in the occupied land.
So, they are not subject to the same rights as an Israeli citizen. So, the argument about due process does not apply to them. It applies to citizens only.
Every democracy does this. The US reports reports and detains migrants without a full blow trial. Anyone remember "kids on cages" that got AOC to cry about?
We hold foreigners accused of crimes in detention centers without a trial. See Guantanamo Bay.
You may not like it, but every country does this with non-citizens. So, what Israel is doing is no different than anyone else.
But Israel is held to a different standard.
Once again you have managed to be wrong. About your own country nonetheless.
If an immigrant, either documented or non-documented, or even a visiting foreign national, is arrested for allegedly committing a crime at either the state or federal level, they are afforded due process of law and other protections as outlined in the US Constitution.
Of course you are introducing two different items in here in an attempt to make your point, but they of course aren't apples to apples. What AOC was talking about was detention of migrants. Migrants are detained at the border yes, but that's until they are processed and either released or denied entry - that's not a criminal proceeding. They aren't arrested. They can actually apply for "voluntary departure" at anytime and leave the country.
And Guantanamo Bay is about a category of terrorist suspects labelled "enemy combatants." In fact the reason they are held at Gitmo is because if those same people were on US soil, they would be subject to due process. Other terrorist suspects, such as those involved in the 1993 World Center bombing, were tried in US Courts and afforded due process the entire time. Most, if not all, were not American citizens
Honestly your statement is so absurdly wrong its laughable. Oh and the idea that Israel is held to a different standard is also laughable - do you somehow think that the situation at Gitmo is without controversy?
Quote from: JWags85 on November 25, 2023, 01:28:33 PM
Appreciate both the question and your complimentary phrasing of it.
As to the question, my answer is two fold. On one hand, I think the evidence present by Israel is a bit insufficient, but, Ive frankly viewed it as teaser info. Not "this is all we have" but more "this is touching the surface of what we've found/what we know about".
But also, I agree with your last paragraph, I'm willing to discuss it in the hypothetical because I'm just a nobody civilian on a messageboard. I firmly believe that the IDF/Mossad knows far more than what we've been given and they have very little need or responsibility to share more during active military operations. Many who seem to need to take everything at immediate face value or think that Israel should be sharing EVERYTHING seem to be doing so as a way to continue to negatively frame Israel as merchants of wanton violence and gleeful genocide.
Ive said it before, but again, if Israel wanted to or felt it prudent for their goals, they could (and have) wipe out city blocks. They've obliterated houses to get to Hamas leaders, collateral damage be damned. I think they've approached Al Shifa cautiously for a variety of reasons.
Going back to the Hamas PR quip I made earlier, Ive become more and more convinced and ingrained in the idea that there are 3 parties at play here. Israel, Palestinians, and Hamas. Unfortunately, many MANY people refuse to make that distinction. Some people are happy to lump Palestinians in with Hamas to vilify them, while some people are more than happy to scoop Hamas into a group with Palestinians to victimize and excuse them. Hell, I saw people praising Hamas yesterday for their kind and exemplary treatment of hostages :o
I take Israel/IDF reports with a grain of salt. I like to weigh a variety of news reports/NGO statements in regards to the Palestinians in Gaza. I'm completely fine saying I believe almost nothing that Hamas or their fugazi Gazan government agencies say unless verified by an outlet I actually trust.
I agree with all of this. I think the bolded is important, and agree that the latter aspect is frightening. I've heard people do similar things.
Also, great use of the word "Fugazi."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 06:36:44 AM
Do you think warnings of terrorism in the US are a joke?
If they come from a a right winger who provides no evidence in support of her post and who has a history of posting false conspiracy theories -absolutely.
Check her thread: Warning of terrorism on 11/22. 4 subsequent posts on Hunter Biden dick pictures. Then an inconclusive report by Catherine on 11/23 about the Rainbow bridge incident.
Since then nada- I guess its now safe to go outside.
https://nitter.net/CBS_Herridge
Quote from: reinko on November 25, 2023, 10:18:44 AM
Do you think drinking from the firehouse of right wing media and proclaiming suspected terror attacks on the Canadien border is a joke?
(https://media.tenor.com/J5-iI8r1qwMAAAAC/dont-forget-poop.gif)
I know it's true, oh, so true 'cause I saw it on TV
Quote from: Mutaman on November 25, 2023, 07:10:15 PM
If they come from a a right winger who provides no evidence in support of her post and who has a history of posting false conspiracy theories -absolutely.
Check her thread: Warning of terrorism on 11/22. 4 subsequent posts on Hunter Biden dick pictures. Then an inconclusive report by Catherine on 11/23 about the Rainbow bridge incident.
Since then nada- I guess its now safe to go outside.
https://nitter.net/CBS_Herridge
kinda like all that horse hockey 'bout global blah blah and jan 6 mostly peaceful riots then eyn'a?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 25, 2023, 04:17:25 PM
Once again you have managed to be wrong. About your own country nonetheless.
If an immigrant, either documented or non-documented, or even a visiting foreign national, is arrested for allegedly committing a crime at either the state or federal level, they are afforded due process of law and other protections as outlined in the US Constitution.
Of course you are introducing two different items in here in an attempt to make your point, but they of course aren't apples to apples. What AOC was talking about was detention of migrants. Migrants are detained at the border yes, but that's until they are processed and either released or denied entry - that's not a criminal proceeding. They aren't arrested. They can actually apply for "voluntary departure" at anytime and leave the country.
And Guantanamo Bay is about a category of terrorist suspects labelled "enemy combatants." In fact the reason they are held at Gitmo is because if those same people were on US soil, they would be subject to due process. Other terrorist suspects, such as those involved in the 1993 World Center bombing, were tried in US Courts and afforded due process the entire time. Most, if not all, were not American citizens
Honestly your statement is so absurdly wrong its laughable. Oh and the idea that Israel is held to a different standard is also laughable - do you somehow think that the situation at Gitmo is without controversy?
They did not commit these crimes in Israel. They committed them in the Judea and Samaria (or the West Bank).
This is a unique area on the planet. It is about the only place with no government. It used to be part of Jordan, but they have reannounced it. The Palestinians claim it, but it has never been part of a place called Palestine (because no place called Palestine has ever existed). Israel currently occupies it as part of taking it in the 1967 war but does not claim it as part of Israel.
So, these are unique crimes. They are crimes committed against Israelis by non-Israelis in an area that is not a country that has no rights, courts, or due process.
These criminals are not afforded the rights and due process of Israelis. Again, you may not like it, but what Israel is doing is what every country does in similar circumstances. But Israel is held to a different standard.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 25, 2023, 07:52:33 PM
They did not commit these crimes in Israel. They committed them in the Judea and Samaria (or the West Bank).
This is a unique area on the planet. It is about the only place with no government. It used to be part of Jordan, but they have reannounced it. The Palestinians claim it, but it has never been part of a place called Palestine (because no place called Palestine has ever existed). Israel currently occupies it as part of taking it in the 1967 war but does not claim it as part of Israel.
So, these are unique crimes. They are crimes committed against Israelis by non-Israelis in an area that is not a country that has no rights, courts, or due process.
They are not afforded the rights and due process of Israelis. Again, you may not like it, but what Israel is doing is what every country does in similar circumstances. But Israel is held to a different standard.
You can't claim that this is both both "a unique area on the planet" with "unique crimes," while also claiming that Israel "is doing what every other country does in similar circumstances." I mean, YOU were the one that brought up two examples from the United States to prove your point - even though they were completely inapplicable to the point you were trying to make.
That is a logical failure that is completely obvious to everyone with a modicum of intelligence - which is probably why you can't see it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 25, 2023, 08:06:17 PM
You can't claim that this is both both "a unique area on the planet" with "unique crimes," while also claiming that Israel "is doing what every other country does in similar circumstances." I mean, YOU were the one that brought up two examples from the United States to prove your point - even though they were completely inapplicable to the point you were trying to make.
That is a logical failure that is completely obvious to everyone with a modicum of intelligence - which is probably why you can't see it.
I'm glad I have him on ignore, his ramblings are increasingly more illogical.
It does bring up something that I really do not understand though.
It is a fact, that in the West Bank Palestinians and Israeli Settlers have completely separate rights, and fall under completely separate legal jurisdictions, where the settlers are governed by Israeli courts, and the Palestinians military courts where due process is not required (over a 99% conviction rate). These distinctly separate legal systems are what has led many humanitarian organizations, and former Israeli officials (including a former head of Mossad) to claim that Israel is practicing a form of apartheid.
Those that are ok with this, indicate it is because the West Bank is an occupied territory and is unique, as H2O claims.
Many of these same people consider calling Israel an Occupier, anti-semitic.
How is it both wrong to call Israel an occupier, but ok to justify the legal system on the basis that it is an occupied territory? I have truly never understood this conundrum.
Quote from: forgetful on November 25, 2023, 09:38:00 PM
I'm glad I have him on ignore, his ramblings are increasingly more illogical.
It does bring up something that I really do not understand though.
It is a fact, that in the West Bank Palestinians and Israeli Settlers have completely separate rights, and fall under completely separate legal jurisdictions, where the settlers are governed by Israeli courts, and the Palestinians military courts where due process is not required (over a 99% conviction rate). These distinctly separate legal systems are what has led many humanitarian organizations, and former Israeli officials (including a former head of Mossad) to claim that Israel is practicing a form of apartheid.
Those that are ok with this, indicate it is because the West Bank is an occupied territory and is unique, as H2O claims.
Many of these same people consider calling Israel an Occupier, anti-semitic.
How is it both wrong to call Israel an occupier, but ok to justify the legal system on the basis that it is an occupied territory? I have truly never understood this conundrum.
It is true that the west bank is divided up into three areas, which was done via the Olso II accords that the PLO, and Yassir Arafat, agreed to in 1995.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_II_Accord
(https://www.anera.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Anera-Areas-A-B-C-1024x576.jpg.webp) (https://www.anera.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/4096px-Control_status_of_the_West_Bank_as_per_the_Oslo_Accords-EDITED-1018x1536.jpg.webp)
So, the claim that
Israel is practicing a form of apartheid suggesting that Israel forced this separation on Judea and Samaria is false. This is how the place was divided and agreed to by both sides.
This is just more inaccurate anti-zionism by a rabid anti-zionist.
Current position of the United States
Nov. 18, 2019
In Shift, U.S. Says Israeli Settlements in West Bank Do Not Violate International Law
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/18/world/middleeast/trump-israel-west-bank-settlements.html
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 25, 2023, 07:18:12 PM
kinda like all that horse hockey 'bout global blah blah and jan 6 mostly peaceful riots then eyn'a?
8 out of 10
More on the Jewish Space Lasers ...
If successful, this could represent a true game-changer in fighting a war (as I noted in an earlier post, Iron Dome inceptors cost $40k to $60k each. If this works, it lowers the cost of shooting down a rocket to around $3 each).
MTG is a true forward thinker!
---
Lasers used to burn through Hamas rockets by Israel is 'future of warfare'
Israel could soon be regularly using a new technology known as 'Iron Beam' in attempts to shore up its defenses against Hamas rocket attacks.
https://www.themirror.com/news/us-news/lasers-used-burn-through-hamas-204899
A key part of modern military defense systems could be set to change dramatically soon after reports Israel successfully deployed a laser to prevent a Hamas rocket.
If correct, the deployment of the so-called 'Iron Beam' is likely to be a world first in a war scenario as nations around the world look to improve their systems of defense against incoming artillery like rockets and shells. The success of the technology is likely to have an impact on a number of modern militaries, according to one expert.
The technology was really intended to be rolled out in 2025, but the use of it may have been implemented quicker than planned due to the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war. Security expert Dr Rod Thornton of the Defence Studies Department at King's College London told the Mirror that the Iron Beam is "complicated," but the likely future of modern defense.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 26, 2023, 08:13:47 AM
More on the Jewish Space Lasers ...
If successful, this could represent a true game-changer in fighting a war (as I noted in an earlier post, Iron Dome inceptors cost $40k to $60k each. If this works, it lowers the cost of shooting down a rocket to around $3 each).
MTG is a true forward thinker!
---
Lasers used to burn through Hamas rockets by Israel is 'future of warfare'
Israel could soon be regularly using a new technology known as 'Iron Beam' in attempts to shore up its defenses against Hamas rocket attacks.
https://www.themirror.com/news/us-news/lasers-used-burn-through-hamas-204899
A key part of modern military defense systems could be set to change dramatically soon after reports Israel successfully deployed a laser to prevent a Hamas rocket.
If correct, the deployment of the so-called 'Iron Beam' is likely to be a world first in a war scenario as nations around the world look to improve their systems of defense against incoming artillery like rockets and shells. The success of the technology is likely to have an impact on a number of modern militaries, according to one expert.
The technology was really intended to be rolled out in 2025, but the use of it may have been implemented quicker than planned due to the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war. Security expert Dr Rod Thornton of the Defence Studies Department at King's College London told the Mirror that the Iron Beam is "complicated," but the likely future of modern defense.
Glad they aren't using them anymore to start fires in California.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 25, 2023, 01:53:29 PM
Good stuff wags
Do you believe Israel should be held to a higher standard compared to Hamas?
Not to be wishy washy, but it depends. Yes I think they should strive to be better and handle themselves in a more humane and modern way. But at the same time, I don't like when that argument is meant to limit/hamstring them in response to a terrorist group that abides by no standards and fights dirty in every way.
Expecting Israel being better as a sovereign democratic nation is totally fair. But when they do something that isn't a neat and tidy elimination of a Hamas leader or something that, unfortunately, is the very ugly part of war, that argument is made (often calling them the oppressor, colonizers, etc...) by people who no real answer on how Hamas should actually be taken care of, which is weak.
"Well of course I don't support Hamas, but Israel is a brutal colonizer, they should be better"
"Ok, how should they rid Hamas who won't stop unless they are eliminated or fully crippled?"
"Idk, by not committing genocide!"
Like some of the stuff I was discussing with forgetful, I think your question is a fair and nuanced discussion...as long as its handled in good faith and not just cover for other nonsense.
Awful.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html
Quote from: JWags85 on November 26, 2023, 01:32:07 PM
Not to be wishy washy, but it depends. Yes I think they should strive to be better and handle themselves in a more humane and modern way. But at the same time, I don't like when that argument is meant to limit/hamstring them in response to a terrorist group that abides by no standards and fights dirty in every way.
Expecting Israel being better as a sovereign democratic nation is totally fair. But when they do something that isn't a neat and tidy elimination of a Hamas leader or something that, unfortunately, is the very ugly part of way, that argument is made (often calling them the oppressor, colonizers, etc...) by people who no real answer on how Hamas should actually be taken care of, which is weak.
"Well of course I don't support Hamas, but Israel is a brutal colonizer, they should be better"
"Ok, how should they rid Hamas who won't stop unless they are eliminated or fully crippled?"
"Idk, by not committing genocide!"
Like some of the stuff I was discussing with forgetful, I think your question is a fair and nuanced discussion...as long as its handled in good faith and not just cover for other nonsense.
I appreciate the posts by you and forgetful in this thread. I've tried to post as little as possible here because I don't want to feed people like Heisy.
I tend to agree with your comments most of the time - certainly more than Forgetful - but appreciate the attempts by both to keep the discussion on an intellectual level.
The huge difference is that you, Forgetful, and some others acknowledge that you don't have all the answers. None of us do, including both political leaders and military leaders across the globe. That is why people like Heisy and Muggsy stand out as such simpleminded folk by claiming they have the answers for everything.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 26, 2023, 02:11:32 PM
Awful.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html
Hate crimes vs terrorism (not aimed at you, I was just curious of the difference given the topics on the last page or two of this thread)
https://www.start.umd.edu/publication/close-cousins-or-distance-relatives-relationship-between-terrorism-and-hate-crime
> Terrorism is often an "upward crime," involving a perpetrator of lower social standing than the targeted group. By contrast, hate crimes are disproportionately "downward crimes," usually entailing perpetrators belonging to the majority or powerful group in society and minority group victims. The latter difference implies that hate crimes and terrorism are more akin to distant relatives than close cousins.
Quote from: Jockey on November 26, 2023, 02:23:35 PM
I appreciate the posts by you and forgetful in this thread. I've tried to post as little as possible here because I don't want to feed people like Heisy.
I tend to agree with your comments most of the time - certainly more than Forgetful - but appreciate the attempts by both to keep the discussion on an intellectual level.
The huge difference is that you, Forgetful, and some others acknowledge that you don't have all the answers. None of us do, including both political leaders and military leaders across the globe. That is why people like Heisy and Muggsy stand out as such simpleminded folk by claiming they have the answers for everything.
I actually think that if JWags and I discussed all this over a couple beers/wine instead of a message board, we would find that we pretty much agree on all the main issues.
And in all honesty, I think I generally agree more with JWags' posts in this thread than my own.
That in part is because early on, many of my posts were driven by two factors: 1) To present a counter narrative to some of the insanity from Muggsy, H20, and the dentists, that drove my posts further away from where my center really is. 2) Serious fear that this could blow up really big, and then hoping that Israel would show far more restraint than what might be reasonable. This was in part, because I have colleagues that were called up, and loved ones of friends who are boots on the ground over there.
Quote from: forgetful on November 26, 2023, 04:21:51 PM
I actually think that if JWags and I discussed all this over a couple beers/wine instead of a message board, we would find that we pretty much agree on all the main issues.
And in all honesty, I think I generally agree more with JWags' posts in this thread than my own.
That in part is because early on, many of my posts were driven by two factors: 1) To present a counter narrative to some of the insanity from Muggsy, H20, and the dentists, that drove my posts further away from where my center really is. 2) Serious fear that this could blow up really big, and then hoping that Israel would show far more restraint than what might be reasonable. This was in part, because I have colleagues that were called up, and loved ones of friends who are boots on the ground over there.
I think most of us are on this page as well. Sometimes the words being used by protestors do more harm than good, just ad "defund the police", "gun control" and others tend to alienate some in the middle,so does "from the river to the sea".
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 26, 2023, 04:30:33 PM
I think most of us are on this page as well. Sometimes the words being used by protestors do more harm than good, just ad "defund the police", "gun control" and others tend to alienate some in the middle,so does "from the river to the sea".
Disagree. Defunding the police and gun control are both moderate concepts.
River to the sea is a genocidal concept.
Quote from: forgetful on November 26, 2023, 04:21:51 PM
I actually think that if JWags and I discussed all this over a couple beers/wine instead of a message board, we would find that we pretty much agree on all the main issues.
And in all honesty, I think I generally agree more with JWags' posts in this thread than my own.
That in part is because early on, many of my posts were driven by two factors: 1) To present a counter narrative to some of the insanity from Muggsy, H20, and the dentists, that drove my posts further away from where my center really is. 2) Serious fear that this could blow up really big, and then hoping that Israel would show far more restraint than what might be reasonable. This was in part, because I have colleagues that were called up, and loved ones of friends who are boots on the ground over there.
Thanks, Forgetful.
I just wanted to highlight intelligent conversation, which is sometimes kinda scarce on Scoop.
https://youtu.be/kNj2K0_4nvI?si=RnDj-mSMHmXSa0_X
#NeverAgain
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 26, 2023, 02:11:32 PM
Awful.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html
Horrible. Shameful. Why aren't more outraged by this?
Had these victims been Jewish, we know that a few Scoopers would have declared their outrage - and for good reason. But all lives are supposed to matter, right?
This kind of attack is what happens when hate rules, and when all of one group (Palestinians/Arabs) are constantly lumped in with the very worst of that group (Hamas).
Even though Hamas is not the government of the West Bank, they are executing Palestinians suspected of being Israeli collaborators.
Note that the tweet below shows Hamas hanging their dead bodies in public as a warning to anyone else who wants to collaborate with the Israelis.
-----
https://twitter.com/marionawfal/status/1728437770396283037
In Tulkarm, Hamas executed two Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel, leading to the elimination of Hamas members in the area
The incident occurred in the West Bank, not Gaza
The absence of Palestinian Authority intervention is questioned
Meanwhile, in Rafah, the prime ministers of Spain and Belgium criticized Israel's actions but remained silent on Palestinian brutality, which is often documented on cell phones
The perceived hypocrisy is highlighted in their selective focus on the conflict.
----
Again, the West Bank is unique. It is the most populated place on the planet that is not part of an official country, and currently, no recognized country claims it (Even Kashmir, often cited as somewhat similar, is claimed by both India and Pakistan, two recognized countries, and they are fighting over it).
The last to claim the West Bank was Jordan until they lost it in the 1967 War. Jordan has subsequently renounced it. Before the Jordanians, it was part of British Mandate Palestine. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman Empire for about 700 years. Again, since 1967, it has yet to be claimed by any formal Government.
The Palestinians say they would like to claim it, but they rejected an offer for 100% of it in 1948 (and went to war with Israel to try and get the entire "river to the sea'). In 2000, the PLO was offered 92% of the West Bank, but Arafat rejected it, and the second Intifada began three months later.
So, it is a lawless place under various forms of military rule. And now, this action by Hamas suggests that the recognized Palestinian leadership of the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority, under the leadership of 88-year-old Matumud Abbas (who has canceled all elections since 2008), is not in control.
So, the question for all those who want a two-state solution is: who do the Israelis negotiate with for such a deal?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on November 26, 2023, 02:11:32 PM
Awful.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html
https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7bqq3/jason-eaton-vermont-shooting
Everything We Know About the Man Accused of Shooting 3 Palestinian Students in Vermont
The victims have been identified as Hisham Awartani, a student from Brown University, Kinnan Abdalhamid, a Haverford College student, and Tahseen Ahmad, a Trinity College student. All three—20-year-old men—had spent Thanksgiving with Awartani's uncle in Burlington. Eaton lives in an apartment building across from where the shooting took place.
Police say that Eaton purchased the .380 pistol that he allegedly used in the shooting a few months ago.
Two of the victims are in stable condition while the third is being treated for more serious injuries.
https://apnews.com/article/pope-francis-israel-hostages-palestinian-prisoners-deal-cffb5f90396c4f410b6af8cd954df0dd
Irregular meals, benches as beds. As freed hostages return to Israel, details of captivity emerge
Details about the conditions of the released hostages' captivity in Gaza are emerging through stories their family members are telling
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/irregular-meals-benches-beds-hostages-return-israel-details-105168150
Plastic chairs as beds. Meals of bread and rice. Hours spent waiting for the bathroom. As former hostages return to Israel after seven weeks of Hamas captivity, information about the conditions of their confinement has emerged.
The 58 hostages freed under a cease-fire deal over the past three days have largely stayed out of the public eye, with most still in hospitals.
Merav Raviv, whose three relatives were released by Hamas on Friday, said they had been fed irregularly and had eaten mainly rice and bread. She said her cousin and aunt, Keren and Ruth Munder, had each lost around 7 kilograms (15 pounds) in just 50 days.
https://youtu.be/voXlir19xpA?si=2REw1-ZRbKyqUPxC
Any Palestinians who celebrate release of detainees will be treated as terrorists? Wow
https://x.com/HeidiBachram/status/1729240549755130174?s=20
The tweet shows a video of terrified Israeli children in the truck, not knowing where they are going, on a street packed with Gazans harassing and mocking them as they are headed to their release.
https://x.com/HenMazzig/status/1729502305702044150?s=20
During the ceasefire, Hamas has:
1. Fired rockets at Israeli civilians.
2. Detonated three bombs targeting IDF troops.
3. Opened fire on Israeli soldiers.
4. Violated the conditions of the hostage-for-prisoners deal by refusing to release mothers and their children together.
5. Denied the Red Cross permission to visit the hostages or provide them with medication.
6. Refused to release the youngest baby from captivity.
7. Held over 170 innocent civilians in captivity, subjecting them to minimal food and torture.
Remember, this is what Hamas considers a ceasefire.
---
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-no-longer-has-youngest-israeli-hostage-kfir-bibas-f8od4ay3
Hamas reportedly no longer has its youngest hostages, including 10-month-old baby Kfir Bibas.
According to the IDF, Kfir and his 4-year-old brother Ariel have allegedly been taken to Khan Younis under the control of a separate Palestinian militant group – the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
Israeli media reports that the southern Gaza city could be the next target of the IDF, giving rise to fears that hostages are being taken there to pressure Israel to extend the terms of the ceasefire.
There was speculation that Kfir and Ariel would be part of the latest release of hostages, as the tense ceasefire between Israel and Hamas holds for another day.
---
CNN cited an Israeli official as saying there were "a number" of problems with Monday's lists—one being that they did not contain any mothers. Under the terms of the deal, Hamas agreed that mothers would not be separated from their children, a condition that has been broken multiple times by the terror group.
Haters will still hate
*MUSK SPEAKS AT NYTIMES DEALBOOK SUMMIT WITH ANDREW ROSS SORKIN
*MUSK SAYS HE SHOULDN'T HAVE REPLIED TO ANTISEMITIC X POST
*MUSK SLINGS EXPLETIVES TO ADVERTISERS WHO BOYCOTT X
*MUSK SAYS 'ADVERTISING BOYCOTT WILL KILL' X
*MUSK CALLS ANTISEMITIC ENDORSEMENT ON X 'FOOLISH'
*MUSK APOLOGIZES FOR ENDORSING ANTISEMITIC X POST
https://x.com/stocktalkweekly/status/1729992430059933995?s=20
Elon responds to X advertises, specifically Disney CEO Bob Iger: "If someone is going to try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money, go f**k yourself"
Blackmail?
Hamas shows appreciation of Putin by releasing Russian hostages.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 29, 2023, 05:09:02 PM
Using advertising dollars to tell him how to run X.
I wouldn't call that blackmail even if it was true. But that's just me
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 29, 2023, 05:10:09 PM
I wouldn't call that blackmail even if it was true. But that's just me
Because it's not, he thinks he's entitled to advertisers, "they should be so lucky", to advertise. I mean, who doesn't want to advertise when the owner is posting PizzaGate memes as of YESTERDAY
I'm sure his creditors are just pleased as punch.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 29, 2023, 05:09:02 PM
Using advertising dollars to tell him how to run X.
I use my discretionary spending to tell chefs how to cook food.
Blackmail!
So his line is that lack of advertising will kill X and that people who don't want to advertise on X can f*ck themselves.
What an idiot.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 29, 2023, 05:33:39 PM
So his line is that lack of advertising will kill X and that people who don't want to advertise on X can f*ck themselves.
What an idiot.
He shouldn't support anti-semitism. He does and the market responds. Reminds me of the college kids getting doxxed and losing possible employment opportunities. Don't have sympathy for either.
I understand Elon isn't as important as college students, so his anti-demotion is different but still
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 29, 2023, 05:09:02 PM
Using advertising dollars to tell him how to run X.
1. It's 100% not blackmail.
2. You have applauded similar in the past.
3. Your hero Elon has mental-health, anger and hypocrisy issues. As well as him being an antisemite.
I'm a wise businessman whose cash flow is almost entirely dependent on advertisers. If they don't give me their money I tell them to go f*** themselves and that it's their problem actually. I then accuse them of trying to kill my company.
I thought heisy didn't care about Elon?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 29, 2023, 05:09:02 PM
Using advertising dollars to tell him how to run X.
I know you're pretty simple, but do you even know the meaning of blackmail?
Maybe you could copy & paste a 10-paragraph treatise on it.
Quote from: Jockey on November 29, 2023, 07:15:18 PM
I know you're pretty simple, but do you even know the meaning of blackmail?
Maybe you could copy & paste a 10-paragraph treatise on it.
Add it to the many, many words Douchey doesn't know the meaning of.
Israel released Palestinians then raided the West Bank during the ceasefire and arrested a similar amount as released? And possible recaptured released folks?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 29, 2023, 07:06:46 PM
I thought heisy didn't care about Elon?
"Haters will still hate"
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 29, 2023, 07:25:56 PM
Israel released Palestinians then raided the West Bank during the ceasefire and arrested a similar amount as released? And possible recaptured released folks?
8 year old shot and killed in the street. Haven't seen anything about the number of people arrested, but the video is a sobering reminder of what life is like over there.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/29/west-bank-jenin-refugee-camp-raid-wedeman-cnni-vpx.cnn (https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/29/west-bank-jenin-refugee-camp-raid-wedeman-cnni-vpx.cnn)
Desperation has set in for some liars ...
(From Reuters)
An image of Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg holding an antisemitic book is altered.
The altered selfie shows Thunberg holding a book by 16th-century German theologian Martin Luther titled, "On the Jews and their Lies."
The image surfaced on X and Facebook. The image is altered, however.
Thunberg posted the original image via her X account on Feb. 14 and it shows her holding her book titled, "The Climate Book."
Quote from: forgetful on November 29, 2023, 08:53:06 PM
8 year old shot and killed in the street. Haven't seen anything about the number of people arrested, but the video is a sobering reminder of what life is like over there.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/29/west-bank-jenin-refugee-camp-raid-wedeman-cnni-vpx.cnn (https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/29/west-bank-jenin-refugee-camp-raid-wedeman-cnni-vpx.cnn)
The above buys into the narrative that the IDF killed him our purpose (why he is demanding "arrests"), and it was not crossfire by the Palestinian terrorists the IDF was battling against.
And to be clear, the 8 year old died as the IDF was fighting military targets. Hamas, on the other hand, seeks to kill random civilians on purpose.
Earlier today ....
Two Hamas gunmen open fire at Jerusalem bus stop, killing three
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/shooting-attack-jerusalem-wounds-least-6-ambulance-service-2023-11-30/
Two Hamas gunmen killed three people at a Jerusalem bus stop during morning rush hour on Thursday, and Israel reiterated its commitment to wiping out the Palestinian Islamist faction, whose Oct. 7 killing spree triggered the Gaza war.
The attackers, Palestinians from East Jerusalem, were shot dead by off-duty soldiers and an armed civilian, police said. At least eight people were also wounded in the shooting.
"The terrorists arrived at the scene by car in the morning, armed with an M-16 rifle and a handgun," police said. "The terrorists began shooting at civilians before subsequently being killed at the scene."
Security camera footage obtained by Reuters shows a white car stopping beside the crowded bus stop. Two men then step out, guns drawn, and charge at the crowd as people scatter. Shortly afterwards the Palestinian attackers are themselves shot.
----
Note they killed a 24-year-old pregnant woman waiting for a bus to go to work.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 29, 2023, 07:25:56 PM
Israel released Palestinians then raided the West Bank during the ceasefire and arrested a similar amount as released? And possible recaptured released folks?
And your problem with this is what? That they were not allowed to kill a certain number of Jews first before they could be arrested?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 30, 2023, 01:41:41 PM
And your problem with this is what? That they were not allowed to kill a certain number of Jews first before they could be arrested?
🙄🙄🙄
Not a serious person.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2023, 01:59:39 PM
🙄🙄🙄
Not a serious person.
You only troll in this thread. Try offering an opinion on why this is wrong?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 30, 2023, 03:03:57 PM
You only troll in this thread. Try offering an opinion on why this is wrong?
The guy who claims that poster wants to see a minimum number of Jews killed complains about others being a troll.
Not a serious person.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2023, 04:10:13 PM
The guy who claims that poster wants to see a minimum number of Jews killed complains about others being a troll.
Not a serious person.
Well, then he can explain himself and why he seemingly has a problem with these Israeli's actions. Every day, innocent Israelis are targeted and killed by Palestinian terrorists. They are not killed in the crossfire of military targets.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 29, 2023, 07:25:56 PM
Israel released Palestinians then raided the West Bank during the ceasefire and arrested a similar amount as released? And possible recaptured released folks?
They are arresting people to stop them from killing more innocent Jews like Hamas did at a Jerusalem bus stop today. This post implies he has a problem with them arresting people before they kill more Jews. Why is that?
Israeli police at work (in Heisey's imagination).
(https://nerdgeistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/d651f360-41f5-0133-9d7d-0af7184f89fb.gif)
This is very not good ...
Israeli officials obtained Hamas's battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.
The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named "Jericho Wall," outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.
The translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.
Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.
The plan also included details about the location and size of Israeli military forces, communication hubs and other sensitive information, raising questions about how Hamas gathered its intelligence and whether there were leaks inside the Israeli security establishment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20231130&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=151407&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Quote from: MU82 on November 30, 2023, 06:36:45 PM
This is very not good ...
Israeli officials obtained Hamas's battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.
The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named "Jericho Wall," outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.
The translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.
Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.
The plan also included details about the location and size of Israeli military forces, communication hubs and other sensitive information, raising questions about how Hamas gathered its intelligence and whether there were leaks inside the Israeli security establishment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20231130&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=151407&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
That's terrible. Especially considering that Egypt and other countries warned them just before the attacks, that a major attack was imminent and that Israel was grossly underestimating Hamas' capabilities.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047)
Quote from: Pakuni on November 30, 2023, 06:19:51 PM
Israeli police at work (in Heisey's imagination).
Telling ignorance here ... Israeli police do not work in the West Bank, as it is not Israel.
It is the IDF, Israel soldiers fighting an organized enemy.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 30, 2023, 10:13:21 PM
Telling ignorance here ... Israeli police do not work in the West Bank, as it is not Israel.
It is the IDF, Israel soldiers fighting an organized enemy.
(https://media.tenor.com/T6zixsJqZyUAAAAM/joke-went.gif)
I mean, the Hamas plan sounds like a Mad Max fantasy. Rushing a border with paragliders and motorbikes? Too crazy to happen until it happens.
I think this is why it's valuable to have a part of your government that takes these threats seriously and digs into them. The autocratic nature and goals of Netanyahu's government hampered Israel... as expected.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 01, 2023, 06:55:15 AM
I mean, the Hamas plan sounds like a Mad Max fantasy. Rushing a border with paragliders and motorbikes? Too crazy to happen until it happens.
I think this is why it's valuable to have a part of your government that takes these threats seriously and digs into them. The autocratic nature and goals of Netanyahu's government hampered Israel... as expected.
Netanyahu belongs in jail
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 30, 2023, 06:15:55 PM
Well, then he can explain himself and why he seemingly has a problem with these Israeli's actions. Every day, innocent Israelis are targeted and killed by Palestinian terrorists. They are not killed in the crossfire of military targets.
They are arresting people to stop them from killing more innocent Jews like Hamas did at a Jerusalem bus stop today. This post implies he has a problem with them arresting people before they kill more Jews. Why is that?
It doesn't imply anything of the sort. Either you know this and are just being argumentative in your little Heisey way when you want to draw attention to yourself, or you don't and you're dumb.
Which is it?
Hamas broke the ceasefire, and Israel has responded in kind.
110 hostages were returned, many with terrible stories of torture and abuse.
137 hostages remain, but Isreal thinks many of them are already dead ... which is why Hamas cannot continue the hostage-for-prisoner exchanges
---
Over 50 rockets fired at south Israel; IDF said telling Khan Younis residents to leave
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-december-1-2023/
Among those still in captivity after the end of the truce Friday are 115 men, 20 women and two children, government spokesperson Eylon Levy says. Ten of the hostages are 75 and older, he says. The majority, or 126, are Israeli and 11 are foreign nationals, including eight from Thailand.
Levy lists the youngest hostage, 10-month-old Kfir Bibas, his 4-year-old brother Ariel and their mother Shiri as among the hostages. The military has said it is investigating a Hamas claim that the boys and their mother were killed.
Just imagine how this could have been avoided had the leader of Israel not been preoccupied with personal vendettas, consolidating power and keeping his corrupt actions buried to stay out of jail. Makes you think
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 01, 2023, 08:55:06 AM
Just imagine how this could have been avoided had the leader of Israel not been preoccupied with personal vendettas, consolidating power and keeping his corrupt actions buried to stay out of jail. Makes you think
Yep. When a corrupt narcissist wants to be an autocrat, democracy is in trouble.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 01, 2023, 08:55:06 AM
Just imagine how this could have been avoided had the leader of Israel not been preoccupied with personal vendettas, consolidating power and keeping his corrupt actions buried to stay out of jail. Makes you think
Unfortunately not the people that most need to think.
Found Muggsy's plan:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TmHH7n-BK5U?feature=share (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TmHH7n-BK5U?feature=share)
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article282459243.html
QuoteRep. Thomas Massie, a Kentucky Republican, voted against the resolution, writing on X, formerly known as Twitter, "I'm voting No on the resolution because it equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism."
"Antisemitism is deplorable, but expanding it to include criticism of Israel is not helpful," Massie said.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 01, 2023, 11:01:02 AM
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article282459243.html
That feels kind of alarming from a free speech perspective.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 01, 2023, 11:01:02 AM
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article282459243.html
Massie is an isolationist. He votes against everything that is the US projecting power outside the US.
I disagree with him, but he has been consistent with his view.
Bill Ackman weighs in on Musk's claim that advertisers are blackmailing him.
FYI - Nelson Peltz and his Train Fund Management are activist investors. His firm has a $3 billion stake in Disney and wants a board seat to fire Bob Iger and restructure the firm. He was denied a board seat and is suing and waging a proxy fight.
More here
https://www.ft.com/content/e28bb3ee-3c7d-4e50-9330-128b92df0750
----
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1730442461644730553?s=20
@BillAckman
I thought @elonmusk's interview with @andrewrsorkin was one of the great interviews ever. Musk is a free speech absolutist which I respect. I think he is entirely correct that he and @X are treated unfairly and inconsistently by advertisers. @tiktok_us @instagram @facebook and others have enormous amounts of problematic content, antisemitic and otherwise, but the advertisers don't boycott those platforms.
Musk is targeted because the other media organizations view @X as a competitor and any time his name is in an article about controversies, it draws clicks. MSM is incentivized to attack him as it actually drives attention to their sites and therefore more revenues. It is these attack articles by other media organizations that put pressure on the @Disney's of the world to stop advertising on X.
If Bob Iger would carefully examine the facts, he would likely continue to advertise on X, but Disney caves to public pressure rather than do the right thing. Meanwhile Disney invests heavily on TikTok, likely alongside videos of kids teaching other teenagers to be anorexic and worse. I am sure Nelson Peltz can fix this when he joins the Disney board.
X presents the opportunity for advertisers to access an incredible global audience that is not available elsewhere. And it is cheap compared to other alternatives because of current circumstances.
On Musk and antisemitism:
After examining the facts, it was clear to me that Musk did not have antisemitic intent when he responded with the 'actual truth' tweet, and further clarified thereafter.
I thought he made what he meant extremely clear in the @andrewrsorkin interview, namely, that Jews are drawn to support 'oppressed' groups and causes through various non-profits due to our history of being an oppressed minority.
Musk points out correctly that a number of these organizations and their members support Hamas. And he is correct in saying that Jews should rethink support for organizations that seek their elimination.
Many Jews are doing that right now.
To use a Muskism, Earth is fortunate that @X is owned by an individual that is largely insulated from financial and other influence. That said, perhaps some form of very carefully governed trust would be a better forever owner than any individual.
@PershingSqFdn invested in the Twitter privatization in support of free speech. Whether we make a profit on our investment is not important to us as we never intend to sell our interest.
I am more inclined to like and support companies that advertise on the platform because I appreciate their support for free speech. I have actually bought products I learned about from ads on @X. I can't think of another example of my responding to direct advertising other than on X.
Unfortunately, recent (and society's long-term experience) with non-profit governance, see @OpenAI, certain private universities etc. should not give anyone confidence that a traditional non-profit would be a better owner of X than Musk.
Perhaps some day the ownership of X should be distributed to each American, one share for each American during their lives and one for each person born, with a charter which permanently vests the free speech principles by which it operates.
Until then, we all should be grateful that X is owned by Musk.
Sad to see Bill Ackman become an anti-semite supporter but not surprised.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 08:26:54 AM
the youngest hostage, 10-month-old Kfir Bibas, his 4-year-old brother Ariel and their mother Shiri as among the hostages. The military has said it is investigating a Hamas claim that the boys and their mother were killed.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/29/hamas-says-10-month-old-hostage-kfir-bibas-was-killed-in-israeli-bombing
A 10-month-old baby who was the youngest hostage kidnapped and taken to Gaza has reportedly been killed in an Israeli bombing alongside his mother and brother,
Hamas has claimed.
---
Hamas is also holding Yarden Bibas, the father and husband of the three killed. They released a sickening video where they told him his family was dead and mocked him during his anguish upon hearing the news.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/hamas-video-father-10-month-old-kfir-bibas/
---
I point this out to say these stories are known by every Israeli, and the entire country is as enraged as ever and unified behind what they are about to do next.
So when Blinken was in Isreal yesterday telling Isreal that they must take care of innocent civilians, this was his response ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-peace-process.html
"We have sworn, I have sworn, to eliminate Hamas," Mr. Netanyahu said after meeting with Mr. Blinken. "Nothing will stop us."
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 01, 2023, 12:13:45 PM
Sad to see Bill Ackman become an anti-semite supporter but not surprised.
Ackman is an Ashkenazi Jew and a powerful supporter of Israel.
But hey, you are free to define what an anti-semite is in whatever way makes you feel better.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 01, 2023, 12:13:45 PM
Sad to see Bill Ackman become an anti-semite supporter but not surprised.
Proclaiming Musk a free speech absolutist is LOL funny.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 12:08:59 PM
I thought @elonmusk's interview with @andrewrsorkin was one of the great interviews ever. Musk is a free speech absolutist which I respect. I think he is entirely correct that he and @X are treated unfairly and inconsistently by advertisers. @tiktok_us @instagram @facebook and others have enormous amounts of problematic content, antisemitic and otherwise, but the advertisers don't boycott those platforms.
Portraying Musk as a victim here is pretty hilarious. He created this mess. Any controversies around X are almost entirely of his making. Now he's claiming that it's "blackmail" that companies don't want to advertise there? ::)
This is my favorite part:
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 12:08:59 PM
To use a Muskism, Earth is fortunate that @X is owned by an individual that is largely insulated from financial and other influence.
AHAHAHAA. Agree or disagree with his various opinions, but there is no doubt Elon Musk is softer than baby sh!t.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 12:34:18 PM
Ackman is an Ashkenazi Jew and a powerful supporter of Israel.
But hey, you are free to define what an anti-semite is in whatever way makes you feel better.
He didn't call Ackman an antisemite. He called Ackman a supporter of antisemites, which is true.
Also true of quite a few Scoopers who claim to be outraged by antisemitism and/or who accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being antisemites.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 12:34:18 PM
Ackman is an Ashkenazi Jew and a powerful supporter of Israel.
But hey, you are free to define what an anti-semite is in whatever way makes you feel better.
He's supporting anti-semites. Very sad what he's become. Must be in business with Elon Musk. Guess that's more important than principle
The truce is over, and Israel might be hitting Gaza harder today than any other day to date. Hamas said at least 175 were killed today (again, they do not separate combatants from civilians).
As I wrote above, the Israeli people are full of resolve and will not stop until Gaza never again poses a threat to them.
Hamas has made it clear, even again today, in the video mocking the father/husband about the death of his family and laughing at him when he begged for their remains so he could bury them in Israel, that all Jews must be eliminated. Hamas made it clear yesterday when they took credit for shooting Jews at a bus stop in East Jerusalem and killing three (including a pageant woman) and promised more of the same.
Hamas set the terms, making this a proportional response when the goal is to genocide you out of existence. Israel is not going to genocide Palestinians from Gaza. But, it will not stop until Hamas/PUJ are no longer capable of even firing a single rocket or shooting another person at a bus stop again.
-----
https://www.ft.com/content/c0baa718-e1a6-4e1e-a198-cda9a252b3ac?emailId=318a2ad3-7244-48c2-81e5-7905786ac044&segmentId=3d08be62-315f-7330-5bbd-af33dc531acb
Israel is planning a campaign against Hamas that will stretch for a year or more, with the most intensive phase of the ground offensive continuing into early 2024, according to several people familiar with the preparations.
The multi-phase strategy envisages Israeli forces, who are garrisoned inside north Gaza, making an imminent push deep into the south of the besieged Palestinian enclave.
The goals include killing the three top Hamas leaders — Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Marwan Issa — while securing "a decisive" military victory against the group's 24 battalions and underground tunnel network and destroying its "governing capability in Gaza".
"This will be a very long war . . . We're currently not near halfway to achieving our objectives," said one person familiar with the Israeli war plans.
Israel's overall strategy for Gaza is flexible, with timing dictated by multiple "clocks", including operational progress on the ground, international pressure and opportunities to free Israeli hostages, the people said.
A fragile week-long truce collapsed on Friday as Israel and Hamas resumed fighting, shattering a pause in hostilities that had enabled a mutual hostage-for-prisoner swap between the two sides. Israel said it was returning to battle to "eliminate Hamas".
----
Hamas and PIJ could surrender to stop the bloodshed.
'Where to go?' Palestinians say nowhere safe as Israel resumes Gaza bombing
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/1/where-should-we-go-palestinians-unprepared-as-israel-bombards-gaza
Israel restarts military offensive in Gaza after weeklong truce expires.
Quote from: MU82 on November 30, 2023, 06:36:45 PM
This is very not good ...
Israeli officials obtained Hamas's battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.
The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named "Jericho Wall," outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.
The translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.
Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.
The plan also included details about the location and size of Israeli military forces, communication hubs and other sensitive information, raising questions about how Hamas gathered its intelligence and whether there were leaks inside the Israeli security establishment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20231130&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=151407&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
It is not good, and the current Israeli Government and IDF leadership will pay a heavy price, as history shows that when past security failures like this happened (1973), Israel voted for a new generation of leaders. All the retreads are done.
And who is coming next? Even bigger "security hawks" who are determined never to let this happen again. The next generation will make sure the Palestinians are incapable of any atrocities again.
The next generation will make Bibi look like a moderate.
You're kidding yourself if they are going to vote in left-wing peaceniks after October 7.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 02:16:30 PM
It is not good, and the current Israeli Government and IDF leadership will pay a heavy price, as history shows that when past security failures like this happened (1973), Israel voted for a new generation of leaders. All the retreads are done.
And who is coming next? Even bigger "security hawks" who are determined never to let this happen again. The next generation will make sure the Palestinians are incapable of any atrocities again.
The next generation will make Bibi look like a moderate.
You're kidding yourself if they are going to vote in left-wing peaceniks after October 7.
Good sign for left-wing peaceniks if you don't think they're winning the next election
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 01, 2023, 02:23:53 PM
Good sign for left-wing peaceniks if you don't think they're winning the next election
Especially if they invested in Apple.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2023, 02:33:10 PM
Especially if they invested in Apple.
Bet the peacenik's watch the NFL
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 01, 2023, 02:34:41 PM
Bet the peacenik's watch the NFL
And take their kids to Disney.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 02:16:30 PM
You're kidding yourself if they are going to vote in left-wing peaceniks after October 7.
I didn't think they would vote in a left-wing peacenik.
Bill Ackman thinks SBF didn't know anything about illegal activity!
OT -
QuoteMeanwhile Disney invests heavily on TikTok, likely alongside videos of kids teaching other teenagers to be anorexic and worse.
Ya. Definitely no bad messaging or media on X.
Israel has stated there will not be 2 states.
Doesn't this mean genocide of the Palestinians?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 01, 2023, 03:51:35 PM
Israel has stated there will not be 2 states.
Doesn't this mean genocide of the Palestinians?
I don't think that a stated goal of governing certain land implies a goal of also killing a bunch of non combatants.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 01, 2023, 03:51:35 PM
Israel has stated there will not be 2 states.
Doesn't this mean genocide of the Palestinians?
Why?
20% of the population of Israel is Palestinian. They run major businesses, Palestinians sit on the Israeli Supreme Court, and are members of the Israeli government.
Why can't the Pleastians outside of Israel co-exist with Jews? Two million can inside Israel. And notice none of them are protesting for a free Palestine.
There was a ceasefire that Hamas broke on October 7.
There was another ceasefire last week that broke earlier today.
Who broke it?
Blinken Blames Hamas for End of Gaza Truce as Fighting Ramps Up
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-01/blinken-says-hamas-to-blame-for-end-of-week-long-gaza-truce
US Secretary of State Antony Blinken blamed Hamas for the end of a week-long truce that saw dozens of hostages released from the Gaza Strip, as fighting intensified and Israel signaled it would widen its campaign in the territory's south.
Blinken told reporters Hamas had gone back on promises to release some hostages and had fired rockets that killed civilians in Jerusalem while the cease-fire was still in place. Those remarks echoed similar claims from Israel, which had said Hamas didn't free all the women it had vowed to let go.
"It came to an end because of Hamas," Blinken told reporters in Dubai. He said Hamas had committed "an atrocious terrorist attack in Jerusalem" that killed three people and "reneged on commitments it made, in terms of releasing certain hostages."
----
This should effectively end all talk of another ceasefire until Hamas is either completely destroyed or surrenders.
How much bloodshed will Palestinian civilians have to endure at the hands of Hamas?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 04:29:02 PM
Why?
20% of the population of Israel is Palestinian. They run major businesses, Palestinians sit on the Israeli Supreme Court, and are members of the Israeli government.
Why can't the Pleastians outside of Israel co-exist with Jews? Two million can inside Israel. And notice none of them are protesting for a free Palestine.
Read. Learn.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel#:~:text=While%20the%20media's%20focus%20has,approximately%20twenty%20per%20cent%20of
Of course Hamas broke the cease-fire. They are terrorists and animals who don't care about human life.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 01, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
Read. Learn.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel#:~:text=While%20the%20media's%20focus%20has,approximately%20twenty%20per%20cent%20of
He's not capable of either.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2023, 07:10:23 PM
He's not capable of either.
Try copying and pasting an entire article. Oh wait those aren't read either.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 01, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
Read. Learn.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel#:~:text=While%20the%20media's%20focus%20has,approximately%20twenty%20per%20cent%20of
Typical misleading article by the New Yorker. They are conflating Arabs that live in Israel, like Haifa and Tel Aviv, with Palestinians on the West Bank, like Jerusalem. The West Bank is not part of the country of Israel. It is an occupied territory.
But if you want to read and learn about Arab life inside of Israel, try this.
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2023, 01:42:38 PM
My sister-in-law in Tel Aviv has been providing the family and some friends daily updates on their situation. Here is how she began today's. She is a very opinionated, very Jewish, and (obviously) very very very pro-Israel ...
+++
Let's start this day by dispelling some terms thrown against Israel:
We are an apartheid state. Ask any South African what apartheid means. No black person could use the same toilets, they could not seat on the same public benches. I believe that they couldn't even walk on the same pavement. The women were maids earning meagre wages and the men were gardeners or only had menial jobs. Arabs in Israel are treated equally. 95% of all pharmacists are Arabs; Arabs are doctors, nurses, brigadiers in the army, they have their own businesses and pay the same taxes. We recently had a huge renovation to our apartment. Our builders were Arabs. We had various quotes for carpentry, for the builders themselves, for the electrician etc. We chose the Arab companies – why? Easy – their work was top notch.
We are occupying Gaza. Gaza is NOT a part of Israel. We have not a legal responsibility to Gaza. We left Gaza in 2005. As a result they had "fair and open" elections. Hamas won. Hamas ran on the ticket that they would provide health services, they would build wealth for the Palestinians. The net result was yes they did provide some social benefits and they also built wealth for themselves. If you are gay then you can expect to be executed if you are caught. Tel Aviv is the gay capital of the world. Israel provides the infrastructure for the electricity. However, the Palestinians are supposed to pay for this. They haven't paid for quite a while. Listen to Joe Biden's speech last night when he said that it would not be a good idea for Israel to occupy Gaza AGAIN - affirming that we do not occupy Gaza.
+++
She went on to add:
Bibi's legacy is dead! He will be remembered as the power-mad egotist who fell asleep on his watch. He was so infatuated by the far, far right that the money that should have gone on defence, education and the health services here instead went on supporting his personal causes.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 01, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
Read. Learn.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel#:~:text=While%20the%20media's%20focus%20has,approximately%20twenty%20per%20cent%20of
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4270274-the-israeli-towns-where-jews-and-arabs-live-side-by-side/
Quote from: Pakuni on December 01, 2023, 05:08:57 PM
Read. Learn.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel#:~:text=While%20the%20media's%20focus%20has,approximately%20twenty%20per%20cent%20of
Quoting the New Yorker? Keefe, is that you?
Israel attacking southern Gaza despite telling Palestinians to move there
Israel seems to want the land. Which is something completely different than just eliminating Hamas.
So what's the end goal here? What happens after military action stops?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 01, 2023, 11:58:32 AM
Massie is an isolationist. He votes against everything that is the US projecting power outside the US.
I disagree with him, but he has been consistent with his view.
That's not why he voted against. Read his words.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 02, 2023, 10:24:19 AM
Israel attacking southern Gaza despite telling Palestinians to move there
Israel seems to want the land. Which is something completely different than just eliminating Hamas.
So what's the end goal here? What happens after military action stops?
It depends on who in power your look at. The Likud party has a long term goal that everything between the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea will be part of Israel. The question is when, and how they get to that point.
More extreme members of the government like Ben-Gvir, believe that should occur now. And his allies are part of the leaked plan to expel all Palestinians from Gaza to annex it into Israel now.
The more extreme position wants to officially annex all of the West Bank right now also. Not sure if that would also entail an expulsion of Palestinians, but Ben-Gvir has made it clear that he wants to expel any "disloyal" Palestinians from anywhere between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, and it would be up to his allies to determine what "disloyal" means.
Believers of Kahanism (their official political party "Kach party"was considered a terrorist group until 2022) is currently very strong in the government, and will likely get stronger in the next election.
Per report, Israel deliberately attacked a doctor's without borders convoy
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 02, 2023, 09:27:45 PM
Per report, Israel deliberately attacked a doctor's without borders convoy
It was back on November 18, accusation came two days ago. Two were killed in a shooting at a checkpoint.
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/msf-convoy-attack-gaza-all-elements-point-israeli-army-responsibility
——
They have been accused of being Hamas sympathetizers. They fund the Gaza Health ministry and often condemn Israel, rarely Hamas. They even claimed they saw no evidence of Hamas hiding in any Gaza hospital.
Why is Doctors Without Borders covering for Hamas in Gaza?
https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/doctors-without-borders-systematically-ignoring-israeli-victims-and-hamas-terror/
As I've posted before, Israel is unified about what they are doing.
Even their peacenicks are onboard.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/03/middleeast/israel-peace-activists-reevaluate-war-hamas-gaza-intl
——
This part is really lost on Western progressives, some of whom made fun of my assertion that when Israel votes in the next generation, they will make Bibi look like a moderate.
From the article above:
While in the West, young voters are often more liberal than their grandparents,' the opposite is true in Israel, Rafael, one of Gen Zayin's co-founders who is using a pseudonym, told CNN.
A 2022 poll by the Israeli Democracy Institute found that 73% of Jewish people surveyed between the ages of 18 and 24 identified as right-wing compared with 46% of people polled over the age of 65.
——
I might add the same thing is happening in a lot of the Muslim world.
Their grand-fathers were violently anti-Israel, but the younger generations in Egypt, Morocco, Bahrain, the UAE and soon Saudi Arabia (under Crown Prince MBS) are tired of all the constant Jew hatred. They want to recognize Israel's right to exist and tell the Palestinians to knock it off and learn to live with the Jews.
This is why many Muslim countries have been so tepid in condemning Israel. They hate Hamas, want them gone, and want the Palestinians to stop being a problem.
Harvard Alums Make $1 Donations in Rebuke Over Antisemitism
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-04/harvard-alums-make-1-donations-to-rebuke-antisemitism-response
More than reputational risk is on the line. Total fundraising makes up about 12% of Harvard's annual revenue, according to Moody's Investors Service. The school would feel the pain if alumni dissatisfaction leads to a meaningful dent in donations.
"To lose that would be just devastating to any institution," said Charles Phlegar, who has overseen fundraising at Cornell and Johns Hopkins and now serves at Virginia Tech. "You can say Harvard has all the money in the world, but they don't. They have a financial scholarship model that's best in class, world-class research and faculty, and you need that money to be a world-class institution."
-----
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1731532031048245631
@BillAckman
December 3, 2023
Dear President Gay,
Since my letter to you of November 4th to which you did not reply or even acknowledge, I have received substantial feedback and input from senior members of the Harvard faculty about a number of the issues I raised in my letter concerning free speech, antisemitism, and the impact of the Office of Equity, Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging (OEDIB) at Harvard. I thought to share this feedback with you now as it may inform your testimony and potential questions you may receive from the Congress on Tuesday.
Free Speech at Harvard
In several of your communications since October 7th, you have emphasized Harvard's commitment to free speech as the reason why the university has continued to permit eliminationist and threatening language on campus – i.e., calls for Intifada (suicide bombings, knifings, etc. of Israeli civilians) and the elimination of the state of Israel "From the River to the Sea." You explained your tolerance for these protests on October 13th: "
- ur university embraces a commitment to free expression. That commitment extends even to views that many of us find objectionable, even outrageous."
In my letter to you, however, I noted that In The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) Free Speech Rankings, Harvard has consistently finished in the bottom quartile in each of the past four years. I note that Harvard's ranking has deteriorated each year, receiving its lowest free speech ranking ever for the 2023 academic year, last out of 254 universities with a rating of 0.00, the only university with an "abysmal" speech climate.
After sending my letter, I reached out to the faculty to reconcile your free speech absolutist commitment with Harvard having the lowest free speech ranking of any university. The faculty had a lot to say on this issue, as well as on antisemitism and the OEDIB. Notably, they were willing to share their views so long as I committed to keep their identities confidential. I have quoted their remarks below:
On Free Speech
"Years ago, Harvard stopped being a place where all perspectives were welcome."
"Harvard is a place where loud, hate-filled protests appear to be encouraged, but where faculty and students can't share points of view that are inconsistent with the accepted narrative on campus."
"Harvard became a place where if you toed the party line, there was applause. If you disagree, you are drowned out. The gatekeepers of speech continue to further narrow what they deem acceptable speech."
"The primary problem with speech at Harvard is that if you say the wrong thing, you will be cancelled, which leads to self-censorship. The result is what you actually think is not what you say."
"Saying anything that doesn't highlight the importance of slavery and colonialism as animating forces of history is not acceptable speech. Lived experience and ideology become the dominant forces of conversation. All of the courses follow the same playbook ideology. Ideology poses as coursework."
On Antisemitism, Support for Hamas, and the Protests Against Israel
When I asked members of the faculty about the causes behind the Israeli/Gaza protests and the tolerance for antisemitism on campus, they explained:
"Whiteness at Harvard is deemed fundamentally oppressive. Indigenous peoples are presented as in need of justice and reparations. Jews are presented as white people. It is therefore ok to hate Israel and Jews as they are deemed to be oppressors."
I asked: "Why are the protests only about Israel versus other conflicts in the Middle East and around the globe where Palestinians and other civilians were killed?"
"Israel is the rare case where we have a hot conflict between people that are deemed 'white' versus people of color."
The Office of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging (ODEIB)
"The primary animating force of the ODEIB is racism-colonialism and the denial of indigenous rights. The ODEIB is a home for people who are perceived to have been victimized."
"The ODEIB was meant to include Asians, but it does not. It is focused on communities that experienced colonialism."
"Recency matters. India is not included because they got autonomy 70 years ago."
"The ODEIB is at the service of black students, to a lesser extent brown students, and to a lesser extent LGBTQ students."
"It's about whiteness versus people of color."
"The DEI framework prioritizes people on the oppressed side of the narrative."
Hiring Practices at Harvard
One topic which emerged when I spoke to the faculty was the issue of hiring at Harvard, an issue about which the faculty clearly has a lot of consternation.
When I asked why Harvard's faculty has shifted sharply leftward in recent years, they explained:
"Each department decides whom they want, and the university can accept or reject the candidate. Left-leaning faculty appoint other left-wing faculty because they get to decide whom to hire and promote. It's a bit like the Twitter algorithm which continues to feed you the points of view you want to hear. Eventually, each department reaches the tipping point."
One senior member of the faculty shared that it is made abundantly clear that they cannot hire new faculty members unless they meet ODEIB requirements. That is, the candidate has to be a woman, person of color, or have LGBTQ+ status. Straight white males are "off the table." Asians and those of South Asian (i.e., India) heritage are similarly disadvantaged in the process as they are deemed successful, overachieving minorities.
A number of the faculty bemoaned that in many cases they cannot hire the substantially more qualified person if he is a white or Asian straight male as the proposed candidate "has to be a woman or BIPOC person." I was told that behind closed doors, it is common to hear: "I clearly don't think this is the strongest candidate, but we can see where the train is headed. I therefore have no choice but to vote for the [lesser-qualified candidate.]"
It is made clear to the faculty that Harvard's discriminatory approach to hiring should never be acknowledged or written about in an email. One professor said that he has been continually amazed that no one has brought a lawsuit as these practices are clearly illegal.
One faculty member explained that it is not just the administration that has been putting forth these requirements, but that external organizations like The Chronicle of Higher Education (TCHE) do "investigative reporting" where they do racial and gender audits of university departments. TCHE publicly scolds university departments that don't meet their diversity requirements further reinforcing Harvard's requirement for ODEIB-preferred candidates.
On all of the above issues, I know you will not rely on my survey of the faculty. I therefore encourage you to commission a highly credible, third-party firm to do an anonymous survey of the Harvard faculty. I am confident it will confirm and reinforce all that I have outlined above.
Discrimination at Harvard Is Not Limited to Antisemitism
The problems at Harvard are clearly not just about Jews and Israel. It is abundantly clear that straight white males are discriminated against in recruitment and advancement at Harvard. That is also apparently true to a somewhat lesser extent for men who are Asians or of Indian origin. The ODEIB is an important culprit in this discrimination on campus as it sees the world in a framework of oppressors and the oppressed, where the oppressor class includes white males, Asians, Jews and other people perceived to be successful and powerful.
While Harvard claims that it is committed to free expression, in practice free expression appears to only happen "behind closed doors" or among faculty and students speaking anonymously.
Conservative voices are squelched and often outright cancelled on campus. Tyler J. VanderWeele and Carole K. Hooven are two recent examples.
In March of this year, Mr. VanderWeele, the John L. Loeb and Frances Lehman Loeb Professor of Epidemiology, a practicing Catholic, was effectively excommunicated from Harvard (saved only by his tenure) when it was discovered he had signed an amicus brief in 2015 which affirmed his view that the definition of marriage was between a man and a woman, and when he surfaced his pro-life views. See: https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590113323000226
Earlier this year, Ms. Hooven, an evolutionary biologist was cancelled and eventually forced to resign because she stated that one's sex was biological and binary on Fox and Friends. See: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-022-02467-5
I am saddened that the Harvard I love has lost its way. I am embarrassed for not having been aware and previously taken the time to investigate these issues until antisemitism exploded on campus. I should have paid more attention as it did not take a forensic analysis to surface and better understand these issues.
Discrimination at Harvard is not just illegal, but it is extremely damaging to our nation's competitiveness, which is critically important in a world with growing geopolitical conflict and turmoil. Harvard should be an institution for our best and brightest, taught by our best and brightest who are in search of Veritas and excellence. Russia, China, and our other competitor nations are not selecting their scientific and educational leaders using Harvard's diversity, equity and inclusion metrics.
President Gay, beginning with your testimony to Congress on Tuesday, you can begin to address the antisemitism that has exploded on campus during your presidency, the seeds for which began years before you became President. But as I hope you recognize, the issues at Harvard are much more expansive than antisemitism. Antisemitism is the canary in the coal mine for other discriminatory practices at Harvard.
As President you have both the opportunity and the responsibility for addressing these critically important issues. It won't be easy for you as I have been told that your recent "pivot on antisemitism" is already making the radical left wing of the faculty highly skeptical of you.
When 34 Harvard student organizations came out in support of Hamas' barbaric terrorism, it was a wake up call for me. I hope that having to face the Congress on Tuesday will be a wake-up call for you.
Sincerely,
William A. Ackman, A.B. 1988, MBA 1992
Harvard will be fine.
You really should limit your cut and pasting for size. Pretty rude behavior. You provided the link for those who care.
Bravo 👏🏻 for Ackman, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 04, 2023, 07:33:01 AM
Harvard will be fine.
You really should limit your cut and pasting for size. Pretty rude behavior. You provided the link for those who care.
Won't anyone think of white males and the injustices they suffer on a daily basis?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 04, 2023, 07:33:01 AM
Harvard will be fine.
You really should limit your cut and pasting for size. Pretty rude behavior. You provided the link for those who care.
I uncovered that monstrosity of a post trying to find the link, so I could read what Ackerman said.
Funny thing is, Ackerman claims to be a free speech absolutist. He criticizes Harvard for two cases, both of which, Harvard made zero actions to fire or sanction the professors. Instead, they received vocal criticism from people that disagreed with them. That is part of what free speech is. You are not protected from people vehemently disagreeing and criticizing your statement.
The reason I find it funny/hypocritical. Is according to his own essay, what Ackerman wants, is to BAN people from saying things he disagrees with on campus, and CANCEL them if they say things that he disagrees with. But wants there to be no criticisms or canceling of people he does AGREE with. In other words, he wants to abolish free speech at Harvard.
Typical hypocrite, who will possibly stop sending money to Harvard, but will suck up to Musk (clearly believes in anti-semitic tropes) because he wants to make money off Twitter.
Sad.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2023, 07:44:41 AM
Bravo 👏🏻 for Ackman, hey?
Also, bravo to all the antisemites you support, nu?
Quote from: MU82 on December 04, 2023, 08:49:52 AM
Also, bravo to all the antisemites you support, nu?
If only you did the same. For examples, see the BOTUS, the Squad and other "hate has no home here" hypocrites, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2023, 09:54:32 AM
If only you did the same. For examples, see the Squad, aina?
I've never voted for a member of the Squad, I've called Tlaib an antisemite, and I've strongly condemned others on both sides of the aisle.
You have stated you would never support any antisemites, yet you worship a guy who dines with them, cheers them on and begs them for support. Not to mention Tucker, MTG, Musk and the rest of your antisemitic alliance.
But nice try!
That you call Scoopers antisemites just because they disagree with you, while supporting the above ... that's pretty bad, Doc.
Please keep your promise, and stop supporting antisemites (and those who accept and solicit support from antisemites).
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2023, 09:54:32 AM
If only you did the same. For examples, see the BOTUS, the Squad and other "hate has no home here" hypocrites, aina?
Would you please let these poor misinformed souls know that they support an anti-Semite and aren't real Jews?
Nearly three-quarters of Jewish Americans said they approve of President Biden's response to Israel's war against Hamas, in a new survey by the Jewish Electorate Institute, which calls itself "an independent, non-partisan organization dedicated to deepening the public's understanding of Jewish American participation in our democracy."https://www.npr.org/2023/11/16/1213406754/jewish-voters-biden-israel-hamas-war
Quote from: Pakuni on December 04, 2023, 10:07:51 AM
Would you please let these poor misinformed souls know that they support an anti-Semite and aren't real Jews?
Nearly three-quarters of Jewish Americans said they approve of President Biden's response to Israel's war against Hamas, in a new survey by the Jewish Electorate Institute, which calls itself "an independent, non-partisan organization dedicated to deepening the public's understanding of Jewish American participation in our democracy."
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/16/1213406754/jewish-voters-biden-israel-hamas-war
I'll add that my very Jewish and Israeli brother and sister-in-law also approve of Biden's response.
I know they don't have the same kind of Jewish and Israeli credentials that Doc has, but ...
The squad are just pawns anyway
More creations of conservative media, but you can go with pawns.
Quote from: tower912 on December 04, 2023, 10:57:50 AM
More creations of conservative media, but you can go with pawns.
Fear and control, aina?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 04, 2023, 10:07:51 AM
Would you please let these poor misinformed souls know that they support an anti-Semite and aren't real Jews?
Nearly three-quarters of Jewish Americans said they approve of President Biden's response to Israel's war against Hamas, in a new survey by the Jewish Electorate Institute, which calls itself "an independent, non-partisan organization dedicated to deepening the public's understanding of Jewish American participation in our democracy."
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/16/1213406754/jewish-voters-biden-israel-hamas-war
If true, they are brainwashed idiots who are either in denial or have zero knowledge of history. They'll come screaming "how could this happen?" as they are on their way to the ovens, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2023, 11:47:00 AM
If true, they are brainwashed idiots who are either in denial or have zero knowledge of history. They'll come screaming "how could this happen?" as they are on their way to the ovens, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Brainwashed idiots, huh?
Damn straight, aina?
What has come out (from Hamas videos) regarding the level of violence and gang raping of women and children is enough to make me rethink the magnitude of hard power I would use against Hamas terrorists and all Iranian proxies. Their laughing during these disgusting acts would turn to expressions of excruciating pain and horror in seconds, and unlike anything they can possibly imagine. It would make scenes from Goodfellas, Taken, The Equalizer, etc, seem like a trip to a botanical garden. These people are the utter the filth of the earth and deserve unconscionable pain before darkness.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2023, 12:42:37 PM
Damn straight, aina?
"Get your vaccinations and start to live again. Science is real, hey?"
--someone no longer on earth
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2023, 12:42:37 PM
Damn straight, aina?
So, you know better than actual Jews - and actual Israelis. Do you also know better than your buddies Putin, Tucker, Elon and MTG and the other antisemites you continue to support?
See, Doc, you have a "supporting antisemites" problem that you refuse to acknowledge or do anything about ... even as you criticize actual Jewish Americans and Israelis.
And remember - you and I mostly agree on the solution to the Hamas problem. Where we differ is that I don't bend the knee to antisemites and those who solicit support from antisemites.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 04, 2023, 07:33:01 AM
Harvard will be fine.
You really should limit your cut and pasting for size. Pretty rude behavior. You provided the link for those who care.
Muscoop will be just fine
Israel Weighs Plan to Flood Gaza Tunnels With Seawater
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-weighs-plan-to-flood-gaza-tunnels-with-seawater-a375dd0b
Move could drive out Hamas fighters but threatens to foul Gaza's freshwater supply and damage infrastructure
The Israel Defense Forces finished assembling large seawater pumps roughly one mile north of the Al-Shati refugee camp around the middle of last month. Each of at least five pumps can draw water from the Mediterranean Sea and move thousands of cubic meters of water per hour into the tunnels, flooding them within weeks.
Sentiment inside the U.S. was mixed. Some U.S. officials privately expressed concern about the plan, while other officials said the U.S. supports the disabling of the tunnels and said there wasn't necessarily any U.S. opposition to the plan. The Israelis have identified about 800 tunnels so far, though they acknowledge the network is bigger than that.
Because it isn't clear how permeable the tunnels are or how much seawater would seep into the soil and to what effect, it is hard to fully assess the impact of pumping seawater into the tunnels, said Jon Alterman, senior vice president at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 04, 2023, 04:50:37 PM
Israel Weighs Plan to Flood Gaza Tunnels With Seawater
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-weighs-plan-to-flood-gaza-tunnels-with-seawater-a375dd0b
Move could drive out Hamas fighters but threatens to foul Gaza's freshwater supply and damage infrastructure
The Israel Defense Forces finished assembling large seawater pumps roughly one mile north of the Al-Shati refugee camp around the middle of last month. Each of at least five pumps can draw water from the Mediterranean Sea and move thousands of cubic meters of water per hour into the tunnels, flooding them within weeks.
Sentiment inside the U.S. was mixed. Some U.S. officials privately expressed concern about the plan, while other officials said the U.S. supports the disabling of the tunnels and said there wasn't necessarily any U.S. opposition to the plan. The Israelis have identified about 800 tunnels so far, though they acknowledge the network is bigger than that.
Because it isn't clear how permeable the tunnels are or how much seawater would seep into the soil and to what effect, it is hard to fully assess the impact of pumping seawater into the tunnels, said Jon Alterman, senior vice president at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.
Also known as the Carl Spackler Plan.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 04, 2023, 05:09:56 PM
Also known as the Carl Spackler Plan.
Does the pump have a big ACME sign on it?
Quote from: MU82 on December 04, 2023, 10:01:14 AM
I've never voted for a member of the Squad
You've never had the opportunity.
Quote from: MU82 on December 04, 2023, 10:01:14 AM
I've never voted for a member of the Squad
You've never had the chance because none have run in your district. I'm sure you'd prefer them to "Extreme Maga" Republicans and support them given the opportunity.
I give Hilary Clinton credit for stating the obvious and torching the progressive left in her party. Not a good look rom Primila on CNN.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 04, 2023, 12:44:19 PM
What has come out (from Hamas videos) regarding the level of violence and gang raping of women and children is enough to make me rethink the magnitude of hard power I would use against Hamas terrorists and all Iranian proxies. Their laughing during these disgusting acts would turn to expressions of excruciating pain and horror in seconds, and unlike anything they can possibly imagine. It would make scenes from Goodfellas, Taken, The Equalizer, etc, seem like a trip to a botanical garden. These people are the utter the filth of the earth and deserve unconscionable pain before darkness.
I look forward to your commentary of the sexual assault and rape of Palestinian women by the IDF over the years. Documented by human rights groups, of course.
Nm
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 04, 2023, 07:53:25 PM
I look forward to your commentary of the sexual assault and rape of Palestinian women by the IDF over the years. Documented by human rights groups, of course.
Really? It will be a boldfaced lie if that's reported.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 04, 2023, 07:57:45 PM
Really? It will be a boldfaced lie if that's reported.
You do know that atrocities can be committed by more than one side in a conf... you know what nevermind.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/04/business/some-traders-appear-to-have-anticipated-october-7-hamas-attack-research-finds/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/04/business/some-traders-appear-to-have-anticipated-october-7-hamas-attack-research-finds/index.html)
This is despicable if true. Apparently some traders were aware of an impending massive attack on Israel, and instead of warning anyone, took an opportunity to profit.
They need to investigate who these entities are.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 04, 2023, 06:19:57 PM
You've never had the chance because none have run in your district. I'm sure you'd prefer them to "Extreme Maga" Republicans and support them given the opportunity.
I appreciate you making your first point twice for some reason, and then adding a falsehood for a second sentence.
I have voted for numerous Republicans, including Reagan, Bush Sr., both Republicans who ran against Blagojevich, former NC governor Pat McCrory, and literally dozens of GOP candidates for local offices. I would have voted for Kasich in 2016 had the GOP not lost its collective mind, and he would have been a very good president. And when I haven't been able to stand either candidate in a race, I've voted third party.
So don't be "sure" when you don't really know about something, Tony. You're not a Scoop dentist; you're better than that.
I wouldn't have voted for Tlaib - period. If I was in her district and she ran against an "Extreme Maga" Republican, I'd have voted third party or not selected a candidate at all. Unlike the dentists and perhaps some others hypocrites here, I don't vote for antisemites or those who publicly solicit support from antisemites.
Our Mequon dentist friend calls fellow Scoopers he doesn't know antisemites even as he supports a politician who dines with white supremacists - people who would be happy to see Jews cease to exist. That's something we're both "sure" of, so I suggest you lecture him.
Quote from: forgetful on December 04, 2023, 09:44:16 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/04/business/some-traders-appear-to-have-anticipated-october-7-hamas-attack-research-finds/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/04/business/some-traders-appear-to-have-anticipated-october-7-hamas-attack-research-finds/index.html)
This is despicable if true. Apparently some traders were aware of an impending massive attack on Israel, and instead of warning anyone, took an opportunity to profit.
They need to investigate who these entities are.
Or it was Hamas, or the Iranians, or some other entity that was planning the attack that did the shorting. Why do you assume it was Israelis who allowed this to happen for profit?
There is precedence for this idea.
On the Chicago Board Options Exchange during the week before September 11th, put options were purchased on American and United Airlines, the two airlines involved in the attacks. The investors who placed these orders were gambling that in the short term the stock prices of both Airlines would plummet.
https://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm
And the speculation was ...
Did Bin Laden Short The Market?
https://www.forbes.com/2001/09/18/0918terrorists.html?sh=222c651f1f8b
They were never able to pin down who did these trades. So, this lives on as one of the Great Conspiracy theories of all time. And it was part of Showtimes's "Billions," where they hinted the lead character, hedge fund billionaire Bobby Axelrod, made his fortune shorting the airlines before 9/11, and someone "who knew" told him about it.
(By the way, the hedge fund character in this show was heavily influenced by Bill Ackman, among others)
Quote from: MU82 on December 04, 2023, 11:16:19 PM
I appreciate you making your first point twice for some reason, and then adding a falsehood for a second sentence.
I have voted for numerous Republicans, including Reagan, Bush Sr., both Republicans who ran against Blagojevich, former NC governor Pat McCrory, and literally dozens of GOP candidates for local offices. I would have voted for Kasich in 2016 had the GOP not lost its collective mind, and he would have been a very good president. And when I haven't been able to stand either candidate in a race, I've voted third party.
So don't be "sure" when you don't really know about something, Tony. You're not a Scoop dentist; you're better than that.
I wouldn't have voted for Tlaib - period. If I was in her district and she ran against an "Extreme Maga" Republican, I'd have voted third party or not selected a candidate at all. Unlike the dentists and perhaps some others hypocrites here, I don't vote for antisemites or those who publicly solicit support from antisemites.
Our Mequon dentist friend calls fellow Scoopers he doesn't know antisemites even as he supports a politician who dines with white supremacists - people who would be happy to see Jews cease to exist. That's something we're both "sure" of, so I suggest you lecture him.
Thanks for including me in your rant. But, no one needs to "lecture" me with their spin doctor jargon. I can cut through the bullchit myself as my Marquette education serves me well. Apparently, not everyone here can.
As for your votin' record, I assume you checked da box for da Buffoon...'nough said, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 05, 2023, 03:35:54 AM
Thanks for including me in your rant. But, no one needs to "lecture" me with their spin doctor jargon. I can cut through the bullchit myself as my Marquette education serves me well. Apparently, not everyone here can.
As for your votin' record, I assume you checked da box for da Buffoon...'nough said, aina?
buffoon?? how about the "big guy" not paying his "fair share" for the millions he and his syndicate bribed from foreign sources?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 05, 2023, 06:16:03 AM
buffoon?? how about the "big guy" not paying his "fair share" for the millions he and his syndicate bribed from foreign sources?
4.5 out of 10
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 05, 2023, 06:40:34 AM
4.5 out of 10
He kind of mailed that in.
Anyway if Scoop has taught me anything it's that the quality of our Dental School is pretty poor.
Next time you have a toothache, call a plumber, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 05, 2023, 03:35:54 AM
Thanks for including me in your rant. But, no one needs to "lecture" me with their spin doctor jargon. I can cut through the bullchit myself as my Marquette education serves me well. Apparently, not everyone here can.
As for your votin' record, I assume you checked da box for da Buffoon...'nough said, aina?
So, you will keep ardently supporting those who give aid to and accept aid from antisemites. You are comfortable being Scoop's single biggest hypocrite on this issue.
'Nough said.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 05, 2023, 07:33:46 AM
Next time you have a toothache, call a plumber, hey?
My dentist is Canadian, so I've got it covered.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 05, 2023, 08:56:36 AM
My dentist is Canadian, so I've got it covered.
(https://www.ocregister.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/lce/lcev9j-lceus3dentistonset.jpg?w=535)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 05, 2023, 01:11:56 AMAnd it was part of Showtimes's "Billions," where they hinted the lead character, hedge fund billionaire Bobby Axelrod, made his fortune shorting the airlines before 9/11, and someone "who knew" told him about it.
(By the way, the hedge fund character in this show was heavily influenced by Bill Ackman, among others)
Heavily influenced and based off of Steve Cohen, according to show creators. The Ackman was just internet nerds speculating based on his initials and Axelrod/Ackman
Quote from: forgetful on December 04, 2023, 08:37:27 AM
I uncovered that monstrosity of a post trying to find the link, so I could read what Ackerman said.
Funny thing is, Ackerman claims to be a free speech absolutist. He criticizes Harvard for two cases, both of which, Harvard made zero actions to fire or sanction the professors. Instead, they received vocal criticism from people that disagreed with them. That is part of what free speech is. You are not protected from people vehemently disagreeing and criticizing your statement.
The reason I find it funny/hypocritical. Is according to his own essay, what Ackerman wants, is to BAN people from saying things he disagrees with on campus, and CANCEL them if they say things that he disagrees with. But wants there to be no criticisms or canceling of people he does AGREE with. In other words, he wants to abolish free speech at Harvard.
Typical hypocrite, who will possibly stop sending money to Harvard, but will suck up to Musk (clearly believes in anti-semitic tropes) because he wants to make money off Twitter.
Sad.
Yep. Ackman's not unique, he's just loud. Yet another person who thinks free speech means that he and those he agrees with can say whatever they want without criticism but those they disagree with should be silenced with threats of expulsion, suspension, arrest, and canceling.
Criticize protestors all you want. Many of them have said things that are despicable, hateful, and antisemitic over the past two months. Hell, form counterprotests to counter the protesters. But Ackman and his disciples attacking universities for following the constitution is just a convenient opportunity to wage a culture war.
Lloyd Austin recent comments:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/civilians-are-center-gravity-gaza-war-us-defense-secretary-2023-12-02/
Quote"So I have repeatedly made clear to Israel's leaders that protecting Palestinian civilians in Gaza is both a moral responsibility and strategic imperative."
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 04, 2023, 07:57:45 PM
Really? It will be a boldfaced lie if that's reported.
https://thejerusalemfund.org/2018/08/sexual-harassment-and-violence/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26718999/#:~:text=Findings%20show%20that%20sexual%20ill,35%20reports%20of%20forced%20nudity.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 05, 2023, 01:18:38 PM
https://thejerusalemfund.org/2018/08/sexual-harassment-and-violence/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26718999/#:~:text=Findings%20show%20that%20sexual%20ill,35%20reports%20of%20forced%20nudity.
So this happened many years ago, and Israel threw the prison guard in jail in 2016 and came clean about this incident in 2017.
Why is this relevant here? It sure looks like you're trying to argue proportionality in rape and that Hamas is owed rapes of Israeli women?
So, why are you posting about this ... why is it relevant now?
Meanwhile ...
Biden says Hamas raped, mutilated women during Israel assaulthttps://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-says-hamas-raped-mutilated-women-during-israel-assault-2023-12-05/
U.S. President Joe Biden said on Tuesday that Hamas had repeatedly raped women and mutilated their bodies during its Oct.7 assault on southern Israel, citing survivors and witnesses of the attacks.
Speaking at a political fundraiser in Boston, Biden said accounts of "unimaginable cruelty" had been shared over the past few weeks.
"Reports of women raped — repeatedly raped — and their bodies being mutilated while still alive, of women's corpses being desecrated, Hamas terrorists inflicting as much pain and suffering on women and girls as possible and then murdering them. It is appalling," Biden said.
The president called on international organizations, civil society and individuals to condemn sexual violence "without exception."
US: Hamas not releasing female hostages so they won't share 'what happened to them'https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-hamas-not-releasing-female-hostages-so-they-wont-share-what-happened-to-them/
A US official said Monday that Hamas terrorists likely held back on freeing female hostages, leading to the end of a weeklong ceasefire with Israel, because it did not want them to speak publicly about sexual violence.
"The fact that they continue to hold women hostages, the fact that they continue to hold children hostages, just the fact that it seems one of the reasons they don't want to turn women over they've been holding hostage, and the reason this pause fell apart, is they don't want those women to be able to talk about what happened to them during their time in custody,"
State Department spokesman Matthew Miller told reporters in response to a question about growing evidence of Hamas rape and sexual abuse on October 7.
----
Why did Biden need to state this? Maybe becuase now seem to progressives are having a hard time condemning rape ....
Do NOT "both sides" this': Nancy Pelosi's daughter slams 'Squad' Democrat congresswoman Pramila Jayapal's call for 'balanced' condemnation of Hamas rapes to shocked CNN hosthttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12822105/Hamas-Squad-Democrats-Pramila-Jayapal-Israel-Nancy-Pelosi.html
So, an hour ago, we got this ... (and no, you were not clear, which is why you have to release this statement)
Jayapal Statement on Hamas' Use of Rape and Sexual Violencehttps://jayapal.house.gov/2023/12/05/jayapal-statement-on-hamas-use-of-rape-and-sexual-violence/
"Let me be completely clear again that I unequivocally condemn Hamas' use of rape and sexual violence as an act of war. This is horrific and across the world, we must stand with our sisters, families, and survivors of rape and sexual assault everywhere to condemn this violence and hold perpetrators accountable.
And a former Bernie Sanders spox ... (now it is an overreach??? I do not seem to recall this when the Harvey Weinstein and Matt Lauer stories broke. Back then, it was "believe all women.")
Progressive Host Blames 'Zionists' In Attempt to Claim Hamas Sex Crimes Exaggeratedhttps://www.mediaite.com/news/progressive-host-blames-zionists-in-attempt-to-claim-hamas-sex-crimes-exaggerated/
Briahna Joy Gray, a popular progressive YouTuber and former spokeswoman for Bernie Sanders's 2020 presidential campaign, is still casting doubt on the verified allegations of rape from Hamas' October 7 attack on Israel, insisting that "Zionists" are employing a "coordinated messaging push" to exaggerate the extent of the terrorist group's sexual crimes.
Gray declared that "'believe all women' was always an absurd overreach.""Woman [sic] should be heard, claims should be investigated, but evidence is required. The same is true of the allegations out of Israel," she argued. "But also, this isn't a 'believe women' scenario bc [because] no female victims have offered testimony."
Two-to-one is one of the lowest ratios in history for a war of this scale.
----
IDF officials: 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas fighter killed in Gaza
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/
IDF believes some 5,000 terrorists killed so far; says new high-tech mapping software should help to further reduce civilian casualties as war moves into crowded southern Gaza
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 05, 2023, 04:50:55 PM
So this happened many years ago, and Israel threw the prison guard in jail in 2016 and came clean about this incident in 2017.
Why is this relevant here? It sure looks like you're trying to argue proportionality in rape and that Hamas is owed rapes of Israeli women?
So, why are you posting about this ... why is it relevant now?
Meanwhile ...
Biden says Hamas raped, mutilated women during Israel assault
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-says-hamas-raped-mutilated-women-during-israel-assault-2023-12-05/
U.S. President Joe Biden said on Tuesday that Hamas had repeatedly raped women and mutilated their bodies during its Oct.7 assault on southern Israel, citing survivors and witnesses of the attacks.
Speaking at a political fundraiser in Boston, Biden said accounts of "unimaginable cruelty" had been shared over the past few weeks.
"Reports of women raped — repeatedly raped — and their bodies being mutilated while still alive, of women's corpses being desecrated, Hamas terrorists inflicting as much pain and suffering on women and girls as possible and then murdering them. It is appalling," Biden said.
The president called on international organizations, civil society and individuals to condemn sexual violence "without exception."
US: Hamas not releasing female hostages so they won't share 'what happened to them'
https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-hamas-not-releasing-female-hostages-so-they-wont-share-what-happened-to-them/
A US official said Monday that Hamas terrorists likely held back on freeing female hostages, leading to the end of a weeklong ceasefire with Israel, because it did not want them to speak publicly about sexual violence.
"The fact that they continue to hold women hostages, the fact that they continue to hold children hostages, just the fact that it seems one of the reasons they don't want to turn women over they've been holding hostage, and the reason this pause fell apart, is they don't want those women to be able to talk about what happened to them during their time in custody," State Department spokesman Matthew Miller told reporters in response to a question about growing evidence of Hamas rape and sexual abuse on October 7.
----
Why did Biden need to state this? Maybe becuase now seem to progressives are having a hard time condemning rape ....
Do NOT "both sides" this': Nancy Pelosi's daughter slams 'Squad' Democrat congresswoman Pramila Jayapal's call for 'balanced' condemnation of Hamas rapes to shocked CNN host
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12822105/Hamas-Squad-Democrats-Pramila-Jayapal-Israel-Nancy-Pelosi.html
So, an hour ago, we got this ... (and no, you were not clear, which is why you have to release this statement)
Jayapal Statement on Hamas' Use of Rape and Sexual Violence
https://jayapal.house.gov/2023/12/05/jayapal-statement-on-hamas-use-of-rape-and-sexual-violence/
"Let me be completely clear again that I unequivocally condemn Hamas' use of rape and sexual violence as an act of war. This is horrific and across the world, we must stand with our sisters, families, and survivors of rape and sexual assault everywhere to condemn this violence and hold perpetrators accountable.
And a former Bernie Sanders spox ... (now it is an overreach??? I do not seem to recall this when the Harvey Weinstein and Matt Lauer stories broke. Back then, it was "believe all women.")
Progressive Host Blames 'Zionists' In Attempt to Claim Hamas Sex Crimes Exaggerated
https://www.mediaite.com/news/progressive-host-blames-zionists-in-attempt-to-claim-hamas-sex-crimes-exaggerated/
Briahna Joy Gray, a popular progressive YouTuber and former spokeswoman for Bernie Sanders's 2020 presidential campaign, is still casting doubt on the verified allegations of rape from Hamas' October 7 attack on Israel, insisting that "Zionists" are employing a "coordinated messaging push" to exaggerate the extent of the terrorist group's sexual crimes.
Gray declared that "'believe all women' was always an absurd overreach."
"Woman [sic] should be heard, claims should be investigated, but evidence is required. The same is true of the allegations out of Israel," she argued. "But also, this isn't a 'believe women' scenario bc [because] no female victims have offered testimony."
Briahna Joy Gray is a fraud who never addressed her former podcast hosts sexual misconduct accusations and disappearance from the public eye, has praised Tucker Carlson on more than one occasion, and stated the great replacement theory is not racial, among many other things. She hosts a podcast on Right Wing activist billionaire David Sacks' network. She is a proven grifter and not representative of the progressive left, and who Bernie Sanders has explicitly distanced himself from. Find better examples than that. (You probably won't try)
Also the Jayapal comments were once again reframing every discussion point into "but have you condemned Hamas's actions?". Everyone has, turning that around into a gotcha by not prefacing every single statement with it is extremely cynical. Saying "I don't like that a lot of civilians are dying" is not the same as saying "I don't think Hamas's sexual violence is bad". She put out a clarifying statement because of opportunistic (Pelosi's daughter is as opportunistic as they come) people using it as a gotcha to people who dared not toe the congressional company line.
Once again, everyone thinks this sh** is bad. But not everyone is using one side's atrocities to downplay or completely erase the others. SEXUAL ASSAULT/RAPE IS NEVER OK. NO ONE IS TRYING TO ARGUE PROPORTIONALITY AS AN EXCUSE.
There are current eyewitness and victim statements about the abuse you are downplaying at the top, but you do not and will not entertain the concept anyway. So why bother.
Quote from: MU82 on December 04, 2023, 11:16:19 PM
I appreciate you making your first point twice for some reason, and then adding a falsehood for a second sentence.
I have voted for numerous Republicans, including Reagan, Bush Sr., both Republicans who ran against Blagojevich, former NC governor Pat McCrory, and literally dozens of GOP candidates for local offices. I would have voted for Kasich in 2016 had the GOP not lost its collective mind, and he would have been a very good president. And when I haven't been able to stand either candidate in a race, I've voted third party.
So don't be "sure" when you don't really know about something, Tony. You're not a Scoop dentist; you're better than that.
I wouldn't have voted for Tlaib - period. If I was in her district and she ran against an "Extreme Maga" Republican, I'd have voted third party or not selected a candidate at all. Unlike the dentists and perhaps some others hypocrites here, I don't vote for antisemites or those who publicly solicit support from antisemites.
Our Mequon dentist friend calls fellow Scoopers he doesn't know antisemites even as he supports a politician who dines with white supremacists - people who would be happy to see Jews cease to exist. That's something we're both "sure" of, so I suggest you lecture him.
Mike
Despite your protestation to the contrary, here is what I know based on your posting history:
1.You have literally hundreds of posts affirming and reaffirming your hatred for Donald Trump and anything/anyone who supports him or his policies. So I think it's pretty safe to say that under no circumstance would you vote for what you consider to be a "Maga Republican".
2. You have linked countless political articles on Scoop. If one of them has been pro Republican, pro right, anti Democrat, anti left I missed it and apologize. Please re-link.
3. It's true that since Tlaib has advocated for the elimination of Israel and downplayed the horrific rapes and murders committed by Hamas you have criticized her, saying she is antisemetic, usually adding just like Trump, Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk, etc., in a weird false equivalency game you play. The rest of the Squad you've been silent on for years as far as I recall.
So based on all of this I think it's fair to say you would NEVER vote for a candidate you consider a "Maga Republican". Since OTOH, you're left leaning and I've never heard you criticize any Squad member not named Tlaib, I think it's fair to assume you'd vote for any of them (except maybe Tlaib) in a head to head race - maybe you would sit that one out.
Was there ever any confirmation of the beheaded infants?
Its a fuckin' war. What don't you get. No one's playin' nice in the sandbox, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 05, 2023, 11:12:55 PM
Was there ever any confirmation of the beheaded infants?
well, if i had some actual photos i'd be sure to forward them on to you jes, if i could stop from hurling my guts out in disgust and horror. anyone have any of those rape, torture, genital mutilation and shooting up of female genitals while we're at it?
jes needs to see them, i don't know, to add them to his collections?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 06, 2023, 06:03:30 AM
well, if i had some actual photos i'd be sure to forward them on to you jes, if i could stop from hurling my guts out in disgust and horror. anyone have any of those rape, torture, genital mutilation and shooting up of female genitals while we're at it?
jes needs to see them, i don't know, to add them to his collections?
2.5 out of 10
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 05, 2023, 11:12:55 PM
Was there ever any confirmation of the beheaded infants?
Does the method on uses to slaughter infants matter?
Why ask this?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 06, 2023, 03:43:55 AM
Its a unnatural carnal knowledgein' war. What don't you get. No one's playin' nice in the sandbox, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
So, you're cool with Hamas' actions?
It is war, after all.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 07:01:21 AM
Does the method on uses to slaughter infants matter?
Why ask this?
Hey, did you hear this from me? A dead baby is still dead. A beheaded child and a baby crushed to death under rubble is still a horrific tragedy.
I think the point he was trying to make was that there were early claims of 40 beheaded babies at the hands of Hamas and was used to inflame emotions... which was unnecessary since there was a myriad of horrific acts that occurred on 10/7 that were downplayed as a result.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 07:07:17 AM
Hey, did you hear this from me? A dead baby is still dead. A beheaded child and a baby crushed to death under rubble is still a horrific tragedy.
I think the point he was trying to make was that there were early claims of 40 beheaded babies at the hands of Hamas and was used to inflame emotions... which was unnecessary since there was a myriad of horrific acts that occurred on 10/7 that were downplayed as a result.
Or, jesmu hates Israel, which is clear from his posting history.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 06, 2023, 07:12:13 AM
Or, jesmu hates Israel, which is clear from his posting history.
Disagree.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 06, 2023, 07:07:04 AM
So, you're cool with Hamas' actions?
It is war, after all.
Really confused by his post. Seems like he is ok with absurd abuse... because it's only war.
Maybe he was ok with the US raping women, and children, and sodomizing children (sometimes with their mothers forced to watch) at Abu Ghraib, because it was war.
Repeat after me:
War does not justify horrific atrocities. Hamas' actions were horrific and wrong.
Historical atrocities in war does not justify future atrocities.
Sexual violence against anyone is never justified.
Quote from: forgetful on December 06, 2023, 07:52:45 AM
Really confused by his post. Seems like he is ok with absurd abuse... because it's only war.
Maybe he was ok with the US raping women, and children, and sodomizing children (sometimes with their mothers forced to watch) at Abu Ghraib, because it was war.
Repeat after me:
War does not justify horrific atrocities. Hamas' actions were horrific and wrong.
Historical atrocities in war does not justify future atrocities.
Sexual violence against women, and children in never justified.
Sexual violence against anyone is never justified as well.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 07:07:17 AM
Hey, did you hear this from me? A dead baby is still dead. A beheaded child and a baby crushed to death under rubble is still a horrific tragedy.
Any dead baby is a horrific tragedy. That said, there are levels. If you think a baby who dies as collateral damage in war is the same thing as one taken from his or her bed and beheaded I honestly don't know what to tell you.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 08:35:46 AM
Any dead baby is a horrific tragedy. That said, there are levels. If you think a baby who dies as collateral damage in war is the same thing as one taken from his or her bed and beheaded I honestly don't know what to tell you.
"There are levels of infanticide" is not a statement I was expecting to find on Scoop today, and yet here we are.
My issue with the collateral damage argument isn't proportionality, its effectiveness. I 100% agree that intent matters here. You can't let a terrorist group continue to intentionally attack your civilians because they are hiding behind their civilians. At that point, you use your technological advantage as best you can to minimize casualties while targeting military operatives and you do what you have to do.
But collateral damage is only a meaningful shield to criticism when it is in service of something. Tomorrow will be the two month anniversary of the original attack - and can anyone clearly outline Israel's goal at this point? What are their victory conditions? How do we measure the marginal utility of each additional bombing raid or Palestinian civilian death? I don't think its unreasonable to say "Okay you've had two months and bombed northern Gaza to dust. Its time to outline progress to date and future objectives because at this point it is starting to look like the Michael Bay theory of warmaking, where you are just replacing plot with explosions."
Quote from: Pakuni on December 06, 2023, 08:48:39 AM
"There are levels of infanticide" is not a statement I was expecting to find on Scoop today, and yet here we are.
We agree again. Lenny, what if it were your child? Would it matter if it were by a bomb or by a knife/gun?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 05, 2023, 10:30:58 PM
Mike
Despite your protestation to the contrary, here is what I know based on your posting history:
1.You have literally hundreds of posts affirming and reaffirming your hatred for Donald Trump and anything/anyone who supports him or his policies. So I think it's pretty safe to say that under no circumstance would you vote for what you consider to be a "Maga Republican".
Yes, like millions and millions of fellow Independents (and Republicans), I am a proud Never Trumper, and that includes politicians who bend a knee to him.
2. You have linked countless political articles on Scoop. If one of them has been pro Republican, pro right, anti Democrat, anti left I missed it and apologize. Please re-link.
I don't have my posting history handy and I'm not about to search. But I have spoken numerous times about how good a president Kasich would have been, have lauded the good things Reagan did (and criticized what I thought was bad), etc. And my Tlaib posts are on record. You make a lot of political comments too, Tony; if you'd like to share your pro-Democratic posts, we can be even.
3. It's true that since Tlaib has advocated for the elimination of Israel and downplayed the horrific rapes and murders committed by Hamas you have criticized her, saying she is antisemetic, usually adding just like Trump, Tucker Carlson, Elon Musk, etc., in a weird false equivalency game you play. The rest of the Squad you've been silent on for years as far as I recall.
There's no false equivalence. Doc Mequon said repeatedly that he would never support antisemites - yet he totally does, unapologetically. Even as he worships a person who solicits political support from raging antisemites, Doc claims that Scoopers he doesn't even know are antisemites just because he disagrees with them. As a person of Jewish heritage with a brother who lives in Israel (as well as a human being), it saddens me that he supports antisemites, because I do know he cares about the plight of Jews. I'm also a little disappointed that you aren't bothered by the fact that the previous president purposely chose to use "vermin" to describe those he wants to vanquish - the exact same word Hilter used to describe those he wanted to vanquish. Indeed, you actually mocked criticism of his use of the word. Do you really think the word choice was accidental? Let me tell you, Tony - most Jews don't think it was accidental at all.
So based on all of this I think it's fair to say you would NEVER vote for a candidate you consider a "Maga Republican". Since OTOH, you're left leaning and I've never heard you criticize any Squad member not named Tlaib, I think it's fair to assume you'd vote for any of them (except maybe Tlaib) in a head to head race - maybe you would sit that one out.
Yes, it is fair to assume that I would never vote for the 91-felony Criminal Defendant or any of his cultists. If I also could not abide by the policies and/or character of the Democrat in the race, I would vote third party or sit the race out - as I have on quite a few occasions. Thanks for acknowledging that instead of assuming I'd vote for them. Enjoy the rest of your day.
I don't want/need to speak for Lenny, but I think we all know that by "levels" he didn't mean that the death of one child is "worth" or "more tragic" than another. He meant that while both are a tragedy, the death of a Palestinian child is the direct but unintentional byproduct of the need to eliminate a group who is intentionally targeting Israeli children.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 06, 2023, 09:09:59 AM
I don't want/need to speak for Lenny, but I think we all know that by "levels" he didn't mean that the death of one child is "worth" or "more tragic" than another. He meant that while both are a tragedy, the death of a Palestinian child is the direct but unintentional byproduct of the need to eliminate a group who is intentionally targeting Israeli children.
What's unintentional about dropping thousands of pounds of bombs on locations where you know children are present?
I'm open to arguments about necessity and unavoidably, but these bombings aren't an accident. If you intentionally blow up a building full of civilians, you can't claim civilian deaths are unintentional.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 08:35:46 AM
Any dead baby is a horrific tragedy. That said, there are levels. If you think a baby who dies as collateral damage in war is the same thing as one taken from his or her bed and beheaded I honestly don't know what to tell you.
You don't have to tell me. Do you think it is any consolation to the parents of the dead child as to how they died if they were murdered?
Have you ever seen what blunt force trauma to a skull looks like?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 06, 2023, 09:16:38 AM
What's unintentional about dropping thousands of pounds of bombs on locations where you know children are present?
I'm open to arguments about necessity and unavoidably, but these bombings aren't an accident. If you intentionally blow up a building full of civilians, you can't claim civilian deaths are unintentional.
Oh, but you can as long as you claim you've vaporized one terrorist as well,
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 06, 2023, 09:09:59 AM
I don't want/need to speak for Lenny, but I think we all know that by "levels" he didn't mean that the death of one child is "worth" or "more tragic" than another. He meant that while both are a tragedy, the death of a Palestinian child is the direct but unintentional byproduct of the need to eliminate a group who is intentionally targeting Israeli children.
Thank you for stating what should have been obvious to everyone. A baby who dies from SIDS is a horrific tragedy -but it's not infanticide. A baby who is accidentally killed in the course of a declared war is a horrific tragedy - but it's not infanticide. A baby taken from its bed and intentionally murdered? That's a horrific tragedy that's also infanticide. I assume Pakuni is able to discern the difference between A and C. He's unable to do so between B and C. Odd, but there's a lot of odd in this thread.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 06, 2023, 08:57:42 AM
My issue with the collateral damage argument isn't proportionality, its effectiveness. I 100% agree that intent matters here. You can't let a terrorist group continue to intentionally attack your civilians because they are hiding behind their civilians. At that point, you use your technological advantage as best you can to minimize casualties while targeting military operatives and you do what you have to do.
But collateral damage is only a meaningful shield to criticism when it is in service of something. Tomorrow will be the two month anniversary of the original attack - and can anyone clearly outline Israel's goal at this point? What are their victory conditions? How do we measure the marginal utility of each additional bombing raid or Palestinian civilian death? I don't think its unreasonable to say "Okay you've had two months and bombed northern Gaza to dust. Its time to outline progress to date and future objectives because at this point it is starting to look like the Michael Bay theory of warmaking, where you are just replacing plot with explosions."
Personally, I think the goal is obvious, but ultimately unrealistic. Eliminate terrorism originating from Gaza.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 09:27:53 AM
Thank you for stating what should have been obvious to everyone. A baby who dies from SIDS is a horrific tragedy -but it's not infanticide. A baby who is accidentally killed in the course of a declared war is a horrific tragedy - but it's not infanticide. A baby taken from its bed and intentionally murdered? That's a horrific tragedy that's also infanticide. I assume Pakuni is able to discern the difference between A and C. He's unable to do so between B and C. Odd, but there's a lot of odd in this thread.
What is your opinion on 'accidentally' starving children to death? Or 'accidentally' destroying infrastructure so that the ICU units at a hospital don't work and the child dies a slow agonizing death?
Are those accidents? Or are they something that is acknowledged as a 'cost' of war?
How would you feel as a parent of one of those children? Are they still dead? Still murdered by a state actor all the same?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 08:14:13 AM
Sexual violence against anyone is never justified as well.
Thank you for the correction. You are, of course, correct.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 09:27:53 AM
Thank you for stating what should have been obvious to everyone. A baby who dies from SIDS is a horrific tragedy -but it's not infanticide. A baby who is accidentally killed in the course of a declared war is a horrific tragedy - but it's not infanticide. A baby taken from its bed and intentionally murdered? That's a horrific tragedy that's also infanticide. I assume Pakuni is able to discern the difference between A and C. He's unable to do so between B and C. Odd, but there's a lot of odd in this thread.
What about a baby who dies, because you are conducting a siege on a hospital, and refuse to allow life-saving fuel needed to power incubators keeping them alive?
And as others have said, what about babies who die, when you bomb an apartment complex, because a soldier also lives in that complex.
If one of our nations enemies, blew up an apartment building, because one of our generals lived in it, we would view it as terrorism, and a horrific act of war, and we would be right, it would be a warcrime.
I'm beginning to realize that how one views these issues is largely based on where they lie on the philosophical spectrum of deontology<-->consequentialism/utilitarianism and, if you lie closer to the consequentialism/utilitarianism end, whether you look through the lens of evaluating the effect on everyone equally, or whether you prescribe to the idea that one side is good, and the other bad.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 08:14:13 AM
Sexual violence against anyone is never justified as well.
Someone should tell all the anti-Israel protestors that the side they are defending thinks this ...
Lebanese TV ....
https://twitter.com/NowTheEndBegins/status/1731768493031256526
@NowTheEndBegins
JUST ANNOUNCED "Allah allows Muslim men to rape non-Muslim women in order to humiliate them. If we fought Israel we can take their (Jewish) women as sex sIaves and rape them. It is allowed in the Quran and the hadiths" — Islamic scholar. #HamasRapists #HamasTerrorrists
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 10:10:26 AM
Someone should tell all the anti-Israel protestors that the side they are defending thinks this ...
Lebanese TV ....
https://twitter.com/NowTheEndBegins/status/1731768493031256526
@NowTheEndBegins
JUST ANNOUNCED "Allah allows Muslim men to rape non-Muslim women in order to humiliate them. If we fought Israel we can take their (Jewish) women as sex sIaves and rape them. It is allowed in the Quran and the hadiths" — Islamic scholar. #HamasRapists #HamasTerrorrists
Gotta love that Heisey is promoting tweets from....
Now The End Begins
@NowTheEndBegins
Since 2009, NTEB has been an end times witness for Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world in the last days before the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 10:10:26 AM
Someone should tell all the anti-Israel protestors that the side they are defending thinks this ...
Lebanese TV ....
https://twitter.com/NowTheEndBegins/status/1731768493031256526
@NowTheEndBegins
JUST ANNOUNCED "Allah allows Muslim men to rape non-Muslim women in order to humiliate them. If we fought Israel we can take their (Jewish) women as sex sIaves and rape them. It is allowed in the Quran and the hadiths" — Islamic scholar. #HamasRapists #HamasTerrorrists
I doubt anti-Israel protestors are defending such things. Because they understand nuance.
You don't, so... 🤷
And yes, Ackman (Harvard) and Marc Rowan of Apollo (Penn) are in touch with every other Board of Trustee member, discussing if they should "ask" their Presidents to resign.
Maybe they don't fire them, and maybe they don't resign, but their BoT meetings are not pleasant anymore, and they have lost a lot of donations and prestige.
Yes, they are still ivies, but that means a little less today than it did on October 6.
----
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1732179418787783089
The presidents of @Harvard, @MIT, and @Penn were all asked the following question
under oath at today's congressional hearing on antisemitism: Does calling for the genocide of Jews
violate [your university's] code of conduct or rules regarding bullying or harassment?.
The answers they gave reflect the profound moral bankruptcy of Presidents Gay, Magill and Kornbluth.
In short, they said: It 'depends on the context' and 'whether the speech turns into conduct,' that is,
actually killing Jews... The presidents' answers reflect the profound educational, moral and ethical
failures that pervade certain of our elite educational institutions due in large part to their failed
leadership. Don't take my word for it.
You must watch the following three minutes. By the end, you will be where I am. They must all resign
in disgrace... Why has antisemitism exploded on campus and around the world? Because of leaders like
Presidents Gay, Magill and Kornbluth who believe genocide depends on the context
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 10:17:45 AM
And yes, Ackman (Harvard) and Marc Rowan of Apollo (Penn) are in touch with every other Board of Trustee member, discussing if they should "ask" their Presidents to resign.
Maybe they don't fire them, and maybe they don't resign, but their BoT meetings are not pleasant anymore, and they have lost a lot of donations and prestige.
Yes, they are still ivies, but that means a little less today than it did on October 6.
----
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1732179418787783089
The presidents of @Harvard, @MIT, and @Penn were all asked the following question
under oath at today's congressional hearing on antisemitism: Does calling for the genocide of Jews
violate [your university's] code of conduct or rules regarding bullying or harassment?.
The answers they gave reflect the profound moral bankruptcy of Presidents Gay, Magill and Kornbluth.
In short, they said: It 'depends on the context' and 'whether the speech turns into conduct,' that is,
actually killing Jews... The presidents' answers reflect the profound educational, moral and ethical
failures that pervade certain of our elite educational institutions due in large part to their failed
leadership. Don't take my word for it.
You must watch the following three minutes. By the end, you will be where I am. They must all resign
in disgrace... Why has antisemitism exploded on campus and around the world? Because of leaders like
Presidents Gay, Magill and Kornbluth who believe genocide depends on the context
Maybe to people like you who are very invested in the culture war. Normal people won't notice.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 10:16:12 AM
I doubt anti-Israel protestors are defending such things. Because they understand nuance.
You don't, so... 🤷
What part of "gas the Jews" and "from the river to the sea" falls under an understanding of nuance?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 10:23:38 AM
What part of "gas the Jews" and "from the river to the sea" falls under an understanding of nuance?
The part where you think
anyone protesting against Israel is in agreement with your statement.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 09:35:28 AM
What is your opinion on 'accidentally' starving children to death? Or 'accidentally' destroying infrastructure so that the ICU units at a hospital don't work and the child dies a slow agonizing death?
Are those accidents? Or are they something that is acknowledged as a 'cost' of war?
How would you feel as a parent of one of those children? Are they still dead? Still murdered by a state actor all the same?
Of course I think it's awful. I also think that Hamas bears much of the responsibility. Warnings and time for evacuations were given. And either ignored or prevented by Hamas. But of course it's still awful.
In the case of the Israeli women and children there's only one perpetrator and they most definitely not casualties of war. There was no warning. It was not an act of war. It was simple mass rape and murder. That you, Pakuni and others are unable to see the difference is as puzzling as it is troubling.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 09:27:53 AM
A baby who is accidentally killed in the course of a declared war is a horrific tragedy - but it's not infanticide.
It is literally infanticide, which Webster's defines as the killing of an infant.
QuoteA baby taken from its bed and intentionally murdered? That's a horrific tragedy that's also infanticide. I assume Pakuni is able to discern the difference between A and C. He's unable to do so between B and C. Odd, but there's a lot of odd in this thread.
The issue isn't with understanding the different circumstances. That's a disingenuous argument.
The issue is your absurd compulsion to rank baby killings.
They're all bad. Stop. There's no need to create Lennys Baby Killing Scale (TM) and rate them.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 10:45:34 AM
Of course I think it's awful. I also think that Hamas bears much of the responsibility. Warnings and time for evacuations were given. And either ignored or prevented by Hamas. But of course it's still awful.
In the case of the Israeli women and children there's only one perpetrator and they most definitely not casualties of war. There was no warning. It was not an act of war. It was simple mass rape and murder. That you, Pakuni and others are unable to see the difference is as puzzling as it is troubling.
When the US dropped napalm indiscriminately across North Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos did you have the same opinion? As the skin was melting off of women and children was that okay? Would it have been fine if we had dropped pamphlets ahead of time? I'm trying to understand what level of war crime you're comfortable with.
Warnings are pointless when the information can't get to the intended recipients or they're being held against their will, unable to escape.
If you're fine with bombing a building of civilians to kill a few terrorists, then I guess that is your ethical decision to make. I won't ever think that it is okay.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 06, 2023, 11:07:48 AM
It is literally infanticide, which Webster's defines as the killing of an infant.
The issue isn't with understanding the different circumstances. That's a disingenuous argument.
The issue is your absurd compulsion to rank baby killings.
They're all bad. Stop. There's no need to create Lennys Baby Killing Scale (TM) and rate them.
Wrong. Infanticide is the intentional killing of a baby, not the accidental killing of one. The fact that you can't distinguish between the two is what's bad. Stop.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 11:18:28 AM
Wrong. Infanticide is the intentional killing of a baby, not the accidental killing of one. The fact that you can't distinguish between the two is what's bad. Stop.
You're arguing with the dictionary, my guy.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infanticide
It's no different than homicide. For some reason people think homicide is a synonym for murder. It's not.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 11:18:28 AM
Wrong. Infanticide is the intentional killing of a baby, not the accidental killing of one. The fact that you can't distinguish between the two is what's bad. Stop.
Even if you weren't wrong here...
Knowingly dropping a bomb on a building where you know there are babies is still intentional. It isn't an accident.
If you want to justify it, this isn't the way.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 06, 2023, 10:45:34 AM
In the case of the Israeli women and children there's only one perpetrator and they most definitely not casualties of war. There was no warning. It was not an act of war. It was simple mass rape and murder. That you, Pakuni and others are unable to see the difference is as puzzling as it is troubling.
You believe Israel and Palestinian groups weren't at war on Oct. 6?
On Sept. 25, 2023:
The Israeli army attacked Sunday two military posts of the Islamist movement Hamas in the Gaza Strip for the third consecutive day in response to a new day of protests by Palestinians along the separation fence.https://efe.com/en/latest-news/2023-09-25/israel-shells-hamas-posts-in-gaza-for-third-day-in-response-to-riots/
July 3, 2023:
Israel has launched a major aerial and ground offensive into the occupied West Bank city of Jenin, its biggest military operation in the Palestinian territory in years, in what it described as an "extensive counter-terrorism effort".
At least eight Palestinians were killed and 50 injured, 10 seriously, in the attack that began at about 1am on Monday, and the death toll is likely to rise, according to the Palestinian health ministry.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/03/palestinians-killed-israeli-strike-west-bank-jenin
May 9, 2023:
On May 9, Israel initiated a direct attack on the senior commanders of Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Gaza while ignoring Hamas, its third such attack since November 2019. The operation was Israel's response to an escalation of rocket and mortar fire by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, an escalation that was itself a response to the death of a senior member of the group's West Bank branch while on hunger strike in an Israeli prison.
https://besacenter.org/operation-shield-and-arrow-may-9-13-2023/
To be clear, I am in no way justifying or rationalizing the events of Oct. 7. The people responsible are monsters who I hope are brought to justice. But the suggestion that the two sides were somehow not at war prior to Oct. 7 doesn't add up.
Will the antisemites posting on this board please raise your hand so there can be no misunderstanding that you have been incorrectly identified, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 06, 2023, 12:26:02 PM
Will the antisemites posting on this board please raise your hand so there can be no misunderstanding that you have been incorrectly identified, hey?
Who knew Tucker, Elon, Putin, MTG, Gosar, the 91-felony Criminal Defendant and all the other antisemites you support post on this board, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 06, 2023, 09:16:38 AM
What's unintentional about dropping thousands of pounds of bombs on locations where you know children are present?
I'm open to arguments about necessity and unavoidably, but these bombings aren't an accident. If you intentionally blow up a building full of civilians, you can't claim civilian deaths are unintentional.
Okay, that's fair. I agree unintentional is not a good word choice. Regarding necessity or avoidability, that is what I was referring to as effectiveness. It is impossible to determine necessity or avoidability of civilian deaths until we define victory conditions. E.g. we need the "what" before we can talk about "how." Once we have Israel's "what," we can gauge whether their "how" is effective, and whether the collateral damage is acceptable in the context of that effectiveness.
Which leads to
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 09:30:43 AM
Personally, I think the goal is obvious, but ultimately unrealistic. Eliminate terrorism originating from Gaza.
I agree that its unrealistic as Gaza existed on October 6. I am guessing that the end result here is an occupation that is legally dubious from an international law standpoint, but largely unavoidable from an immediate security standpoint. I just hate that it isn't being defined at this stage.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 06, 2023, 12:26:02 PM
Will the antisemites posting on this board please raise your hand so there can be no misunderstanding that you have been incorrectly identified, hey?
Does that include telling Jewish people how they should think and vote?
Damn straight it does. I'll tell anyone within shoutin' range includin' ewe two, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 06, 2023, 01:11:19 PM
Does that include telling Jewish people how they should think and vote?
Jewish peeple ar stoopid wen it cumms to Jewish ishoos. Only Tucker, MTG, Putin and gentile Mequon dentists reely no.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 06, 2023, 01:20:10 PM
Damn straight it does. I'll tell anyone within shoutin' range includin' ewe two, hey?
Glad you outed yourself as an anti-semite. Raise your hand
Quote from: Pakuni on December 06, 2023, 11:26:14 AM
You're arguing with the dictionary, my guy.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infanticide
It's no different than homicide. For some reason people think homicide is a synonym for murder. It's not.
So you're saying a doctor who makes a mistake on the operating table that results in a baby's death (accidentally kills it) has committed infanticide.
I disagree. In fact, I think it's absurd. The "intentional" part is self evident. You've know what self evident means, a'ina?
Some other websites with their definitions:
humanium.com: the act of intentionally causing the death of a very young child (under one year of age)
Study.com: the deliberate killing of a child under the age of 1.
Wikipedia: infanticide is defined as the intentional killing of infants or offspring.
Many more and everyone I found had intent as part of the definition. IOW, reasonable.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 10:17:45 AM
And yes, Ackman (Harvard) and Marc Rowan of Apollo (Penn) are in touch with every other Board of Trustee member, discussing if they should "ask" their Presidents to resign.
Maybe they don't fire them, and maybe they don't resign, but their BoT meetings are not pleasant anymore, and they have lost a lot of donations and prestige.
Yes, they are still ivies, but that means a little less today than it did on October 6.
----
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1732179418787783089
The presidents of @Harvard, @MIT, and @Penn were all asked the following question
under oath at today's congressional hearing on antisemitism: Does calling for the genocide of Jews
violate [your university's] code of conduct or rules regarding bullying or harassment?.
The answers they gave reflect the profound moral bankruptcy of Presidents Gay, Magill and Kornbluth.
In short, they said: It 'depends on the context' and 'whether the speech turns into conduct,' that is,
actually killing Jews... The presidents' answers reflect the profound educational, moral and ethical
failures that pervade certain of our elite educational institutions due in large part to their failed
leadership. Don't take my word for it.
You must watch the following three minutes. By the end, you will be where I am. They must all resign
in disgrace... Why has antisemitism exploded on campus and around the world? Because of leaders like
Presidents Gay, Magill and Kornbluth who believe genocide depends on the context
The presidents were correct. It does depend on context. The congresswoman knows that, Ackman knows that, and I hope you know that after our discussions here but they and you see an opportunity to fight a culture war and are taking advantage.
Again, Ackman and others are calling on the Ivies to violate students first amendment rights, which will lead to lawsuits, which will either be successful or settled, which will then result in universities funding antisemitism. Ackman is advocating for students to be paid thousands if not millions of dollars for being antisemetic.
The presidents may end up resigning or being removed because they make convenient scapegoats, but nothing will change as a result.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 06, 2023, 01:20:10 PM
Damn straight it does. I'll tell anyone within shoutin' range includin' ewe two, hey?
lol
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 06, 2023, 01:20:10 PM
Damn straight it does. I'll tell anyone within shoutin' range includin' ewe two, hey?
"I'm not antisemitic, but they aren't smart enough to know who to vote for. Just like the citizens of Milwaukee."
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 11:32:46 AM
Even if you weren't wrong here...
Knowingly dropping a bomb on a building where you know there are babies is still intentional. It isn't an accident.
If you want to justify it, this isn't the way.
I tend to believe (same with the law domestically) that negligence isn't justification for violence and death. The family I ran off the road and killed in order to get home faster to my sick child is just an unfortunate byproduct of my needs to protect my own. (Dumb example probably)
Then again I'm not military leadership.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israels-failed-bombing-campaign-gaza
https://x.com/JonHaidt/status/1732389011983900857?s=20
As a professor who favors free speech on campus, I can sympathize with the "nuanced" answers given by U. presidents yesterday, about whether calls to attack or wipe out Israel violate campus speech policies.
What offends me is that since 2015, universities have been so quick to punish "microaggressions," including statements intended to be kind, if even one person from a favored group took offense. The presidents are now saying: "Jews are not a favored group, so offending or threatening Jews is not so bad. For Jews, it all depends on context." We might call this double standard "institutional anti-semitism."
University presidents: If you're not going to punish students for calling for the elimination of Israel and Israelis, it's OK with me, but ONLY if you also immediately dismantle the speech policing apparatus and norms you created in 2015-2016. Please read The Coddling of the American Mind.
@glukianoff and I laid out exactly where the oppressor/victim frame came from (ch. 3), how it spread out of a few departments to gain power over administrators and campus culture (chapters 4 and 5), and how it drove the creation of the bureaucratic structures and processes that now have us all teaching and learning on eggshells (ch. 10). In chapter 13 we offer advice to leaders on how to to return universities to their academic mission and regain public trust.
Yeah, universities aren't really "quick to punish microaggressions" at all. So that's a nice strawman.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 10:22:59 AM
Maybe to people like you who are very invested in the culture war. Normal people won't notice.
The White House notice, or are they not part of the "normal people?"
https://www.mediaite.com/news/white-house-shames-university-presidents-over-anti-semitism-hearing-unbelievable-that-this-needs-to-be-said/
Andrew Bates, White House deputy press secretary and senior communications advisor, issued a scathing and unequivocal statement about the hearing on Wednesday.
"It's unbelievable that this needs to be said: calls for genocide are monstrous and antithetical to everything we represent as a country," declared Bates. "Any statements that advocate for the systematic murder of Jews are dangerous and revolting – and we should all stand firmly against them, on the side of human dignity and the most basic values that unite us as Americans."
Israel Says It Has Killed Half of Hamas's Battalion Commanders
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-of-hamass-battalion-commanders-34a1c058
Israel said it has killed about half of Hamas's midlevel commanders in Gaza and is pressing on the suspected hiding place of the group's leader, deploying a deliberate strategy to disrupt the militants' ability to fight in the enclave.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 03:35:40 PM
The White House notice, or are they not part of the "normal people?"
https://www.mediaite.com/news/white-house-shames-university-presidents-over-anti-semitism-hearing-unbelievable-that-this-needs-to-be-said/
Andrew Bates, White House deputy press secretary and senior communications advisor, issued a scathing and unequivocal statement about the hearing on Wednesday.
"It's unbelievable that this needs to be said: calls for genocide are monstrous and antithetical to everything we represent as a country," declared Bates. "Any statements that advocate for the systematic murder of Jews are dangerous and revolting – and we should all stand firmly against them, on the side of human dignity and the most basic values that unite us as Americans."
You misunderstand.
The average person is obviously not the White House. The average person won't think an Ivy League education is worth less than it was on 10/6. The average person isn't as hyperfocused on any of this the way you or the average terminally online person is.
You're not the average American.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 06, 2023, 02:09:50 PM
The presidents were correct. It does depend on context. The congresswoman knows that, Ackman knows that, and I hope you know that after our discussions here but they and you see an opportunity to fight a culture war and are taking advantage.
Again, Ackman and others are calling on the Ivies to violate students first amendment rights, which will lead to lawsuits, which will either be successful or settled, which will then result in universities funding antisemitism. Ackman is advocating for students to be paid thousands if not millions of dollars for being antisemetic.
The presidents may end up resigning or being removed because they make convenient scapegoats, but nothing will change as a result.
calling for the mass murder/extinction of jews...please explain what context you can put this in to and NOT be anti-Semitic?
yes, you can say it, scream it from the roof top, but it's still anti-Semitic
maybe they would better understand if there were people with white hoods on calling for the killing of all african americans. or is there a context this would be cool as well?
Satmar Jews are anti semites/dentites
Religion was a mistake.
Also, thanks for the laughs, Rocky
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 06, 2023, 03:42:12 PM
You misunderstand.
The average person is obviously not the White House. The average person won't think an Ivy League education is worth less than it was on 10/6. The average person isn't as hyperfocused on any of this the way you or the average terminally online person is.
You're not the average American.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAsZToPWgAEaMF2?format=jpg&name=medium)
https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
QuoteThe bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to "create a shock" that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and "lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas," as one source put it.
Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army's intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.
In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. "The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage," said one source.
"Nothing happens by accident," said another source. "When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it's because someone in the army decided it wasn't a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home."
Lol@title
https://dnyuz.com/2023/12/06/donors-and-alumni-demand-that-penns-president-resign-over-remarks-at-hearing/
"It should not be hard to condemn genocide, genocide against Jews, genocide against anyone else," Governor Shapiro said Wednesday in a meeting with reporters. "I've said many times, leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity, and Liz Magill failed to meet that simple test."
"There should be no nuance to that — she needed to give a one-word answer," he added.
Asked how the university should respond, the governor said, "I think right now the board and Penn has a serious decision they need to make," and urged the university's board of trustees to meet soon. No regular public meeting of the board is scheduled until February.
----
On Wednesday, Marc Rowan, the chief of Apollo Group and the board chair at the Wharton School, Penn's business school, wrote to the university's board of trustees asking them to rescind their support for Ms. Magill.
"How much damage to our reputation are we willing to accept?" he wrote. "The call for fundamental change at UPenn continues."
By Wednesday, a petition demanding her resignation had attracted more than 1,500 signatures.
https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/12/06/harvard-university-alums-say-president-claudine-gay-should-resign-after-shocking-testimony-about-antisemitism-on-campus/
https://x.com/ashleyfeinberg/status/1732536326925201824?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 06, 2023, 06:39:05 PM
https://x.com/ashleyfeinberg/status/1732536326925201824?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
I mean, I'm not sure what sort of "gotcha" that is against the IDF/Israel. Hamas kidnapped hostages and then kept them in Hamas hiding spots/strongholds. Hamas would have been responsible for their deaths regardless. Thats not some defense of Israel action, its just not letting them try to pass blame for civilian death from Hamas back to Israel. Look at the headline, the whole piece was the horrors the hostages experienced, including being kept in a warzone where any number of things put them at risk of death.
Also, I know its a repost and CNN content, but that account posted the clip is an absolute far left lunatic loser who once posted, roughly paraphrasing, "nobody has ever been made safer by police that wasn't a rich white man" and almost certainly doesn't not believe Israel has a right to exist.
Leaving a television interview after tonight's GOP presidential debate, Vivek Ramaswamy and Rabbi Shmuley Boteach got into a bit of a shouting match over Ramaswamy's opposition to sending aid to Israel in its war with Hamas.
"The American Jewish community should absolutely reject the policies of Vivek Ramaswamy, which calls for America's foremost ally to be defunded when it is fighting a war, where it faced abhorrent and foreign attacks," he tells reporters about the dispute.
(From the NYT)
Rich Eisen diverged from sports today and went off on the three University Presidents inability to call out antisemitism.
He called them disgraceful and got pretty emotional and upset about it.
https://youtu.be/hKZp-YcD_Gg?si=0vIvOhCt9vsI3qgw
——-
Also, Sam Harris today - What is Islamophobia?
https://youtu.be/-fCiMQviTiw?si=XStL21LoTb5DTN8u
What is Islamophobia? Someone once said on the Internet, it's a word "invented by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons," and that's not far from the truth. There is no question that the term has been designed to confuse people. Its purpose is to conflate any criticism of Islam, which is a doctrine of religious beliefs, with bigotry against Muslims as people. In fact, it equates secularism itself—the commitment to keeping religion out of our laws and public policy—with hatred. The term is now being widely used in the mainstream media, and it is making it impossible to speak honestly about the consequences of dangerous ideas.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 03:30:33 PM
What offends me is that since 2015, universities have been so quick to punish "microaggressions," including statements intended to be kind, if even one person from a favored group took offense. The presidents are now saying: "Jews are not a favored group, so offending or threatening Jews is not so bad. For Jews, it all depends on context." We might call this double standard "institutional anti-semitism."
Can you or your tweeter provide any example of a university "being quick to punish microaggerssions"? There might be one out there, but I'm not personally aware of it.
I asked you this same question about 45 pages ago. You gave me two examples that went to court and the courts sided with the universities and said they were in the right. Got any actual examples?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 06, 2023, 03:49:09 PM
calling for the mass murder/extinction of jews...please explain what context you can put this in to and NOT be anti-Semitic?
yes, you can say it, scream it from the roof top, but it's still anti-Semitic
maybe they would better understand if there were people with white hoods on calling for the killing of all african americans. or is there a context this would be cool as well?
Has anyone here questioned if calling for the mass murder/extinction of jews is antisemitic? I'm sure in some corner of the internet there are people doing that, but I think everyone here is in agreement that it is. The discussion I was having with Heisey is whether it is protected by the first amendment. Which as the university presidents' correctly stated, the answer is, "it depends". Honestly, most of the time, the answer is yes, it is protected by the first amendment.
As for your last statement, yes it would be the same if it were people in white hoods calling for the killing of all african americans. It would depend on the context and in most cases it would be protected by the first amendment.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 12:07:57 AM
Has anyone here questioned if calling for the mass murder/extinction of jews is antisemitic? I'm sure in some corner of the internet there are people doing that, but I think everyone here is in agreement that it is. The discussion I was having with Heisey is whether it is protected by the first amendment. Which as the university presidents' correctly stated, the answer is, "it depends". Honestly, most of the time, the answer is yes, it is protected by the first amendment.
As for your last statement, yes it would be the same if it were people in white hoods calling for the killing of all african americans. It would depend on the context and in most cases it would be protected by the first amendment.
That's a separate issue from the code of conduct of these schools and whether they would tolerate it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 06, 2023, 11:03:30 PM
Rich Eisen diverged from sports today and went off on the three University Presidents inability to call out antisemitism.
He called them disgraceful and got pretty emotional and upset about it.
https://youtu.be/hKZp-YcD_Gg?si=0vIvOhCt9vsI3qgw
——-
Also, Sam Harris today - What is Islamophobia?
https://youtu.be/-fCiMQviTiw?si=XStL21LoTb5DTN8u
What is Islamophobia? Someone once said on the Internet, it's a word "invented by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons," and that's not far from the truth. There is no question that the term has been designed to confuse people. Its purpose is to conflate any criticism of Islam, which is a doctrine of religious beliefs, with bigotry against Muslims as people. In fact, it equates secularism itself—the commitment to keeping religion out of our laws and public policy—with hatred. The term is now being widely used in the mainstream media, and it is making it impossible to speak honestly about the consequences of dangerous ideas.
Pretty spot on and I essentially said this from day one. When I stated Islam isn't a race I think Reeko wrongly insisted that it "basically is". It's not, and Harris' synopsis is pretty hard to disagree with if you're rational.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 07, 2023, 12:13:10 AM
That's a separate issue from the code of conduct of tbese schools and whether they would tolerate it.
No it's not a separate issue. All of these universities (like the vast majority of private universities) have policies that guarantee that they will honor enrolled students' and employees' first amendment rights. They legally cannot have anything in their code of conduct that violates a student or employee's first amendment right. If they do, it is a breach of contract and they are legally liable. If any of these universities attempt to punish a student or employee for protected speech, they will end up paying that student or employee hundreds of thousands if not millions in damages. So unless you would like these universities to start directly funding antisemites, they cannot punish protected speech.
Calling on universities to punish protected speech is calling for something illegal, un-American, and frankly antisemitic (again, cause you are encouraging universities to directly fund antisemites).
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 12:02:28 AM
Can you or your tweeter provide any example of a university "being quick to punish microaggerssions"? There might be one out there, but I'm not personally aware of it.
I asked you this same question about 45 pages ago. You gave me two examples that went to court and the courts sided with the universities and said they were in the right. Got any actual examples?
I pointed that straw man as well. Which of course Heisey ignored.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 12:02:28 AM
Can you or your tweeter provide any example of a university "being quick to punish microaggerssions"? There might be one out there, but I'm not personally aware of it.
I asked you this same question about 45 pages ago. You gave me two examples that went to court and the courts sided with the universities and said they were in the right. Got any actual examples?
https://www.city-journal.org/article/harvards-double-standard-on-free-speech
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/education/ivy-league-hypocrisy-free-speech-activists-history-censorship
https://www.city-journal.org/article/double-standards-at-princeton
https://www.campusreform.org/article/1400-alumni-faculty-parents-accuse-yale-of-glaring-double-standard-ignoring-threats-against-jewish-students/24403
https://www.ncregister.com/news/does-georgetown-university-respect-free-speech
——
Regarding the tweeter, that would be Jonathan Haidt.
He wrote an entire book about microagessions
https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897?nodl=1&dplnkId=84a5f16e-c34a-4cc8-9e90-d5d087766bbd
https://www.likevillepodcast.com/articles/2020/8/14/microaggressions-a-selection-from-greg-lukianoff-amp-jonathan-haidts-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind-2018
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 07, 2023, 12:16:08 AM
Pretty spot on and I essentially said this from day one. When I stated Islam isn't a race I think Reeko wrongly insisted that it "basically is". It's not, and Harris' synopsis is pretty hard to disagree with if you're rational.
Why does it matter if Islam isn't a race.
Go through Sam Harris' statement and replace the word Islamophobia with Antisemitism, and Islam/Muslim with Judaism/Jewish person and you'll see how truly stupid Sam is.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 07, 2023, 06:18:28 AM
Why does it matter if Islam isn't a race.
Go through Sam Harris' statement and replace the word Islamophobia with Antisemitism, and Islam/Muslim with Judaism/Jewish person and you'll see how truly stupid Sam is.
If you would listen to him, or read the transcript, you'd have a better idea of who is the stupid person here.
https://www.samharris.org/blog/what-is-islamophobia
There is no race of Muslims. Islam is a system of ideas, subscribed to by people of every race and ethnicity. It's just like Christianity in that regard. Christianity and Islam are both aggressively missionary faiths, and they win converts from everywhere. People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people. There's no such thing as "Christophobia." If you criticize Christianity—and I've written an entire book excoriating Christianity—no one accuses you of being a racist against people from Brazil, or Mexico, or Ethiopia, or the Philippines. But even the New York Times will use the term "Islamophobia" as a synonym for racism against Arabs. This is pure delusion and propaganda. There are Christian Arabs. And I could become a Muslim in 5 minutes just by converting to the faith.
How does the term "antisemitism" differ as a concept? Well, we have a 2000-year-old tradition of religiously inspired hatred against Jews, courtesy of Christian theology. But for at least the last 150 years, or so, Jews have been thought of as a distinct race of people, both by those who hate them and, rather often, by Jews themselves. So antisemitism tends to be expressed as a specific form of racism. Antisemites are not focused on what Jews believe, or even on what they do on the basis of their beliefs. Modern antisemites, like Nazis, care about who your mother's mother's mother was. Just like racism, antisemitism has become a hatred of people, as people, not because of their beliefs or their behavior, but because of the mere circumstances of their birth.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 07, 2023, 12:16:08 AM
Pretty spot on and I essentially said this from day one. When I stated Islam isn't a race I think Reeko wrongly insisted that it "basically is". It's not, and Harris' synopsis is pretty hard to disagree with if you're rational.
No, I didn't say that. I'll accept your apology for your inaccurate and inflammatory statement.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 06:27:49 AM
If you would listen to him, or read the transcript, you'd have a better idea of who is the stupid person here.
https://www.samharris.org/blog/what-is-islamophobia
There is no race of Muslims. Islam is a system of ideas, subscribed to by people of every race and ethnicity. It's just like Christianity in that regard. Christianity and Islam are both aggressively missionary faiths, and they win converts from everywhere. People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people. There's no such thing as "Christophobia." If you criticize Christianity—and I've written an entire book excoriating Christianity—no one accuses you of being a racist against people from Brazil, or Mexico, or Ethiopia, or the Philippines. But even the New York Times will use the term "Islamophobia" as a synonym for racism against Arabs. This is pure delusion and propaganda. There are Christian Arabs. And I could become a Muslim in 5 minutes just by converting to the faith.
How does the term "antisemitism" differ as a concept? Well, we have a 2000-year-old tradition of religiously inspired hatred against Jews, courtesy of Christian theology. But for at least the last 150 years, or so, Jews have been thought of as a distinct race of people, both by those who hate them and, rather often, by Jews themselves. So antisemitism tends to be expressed as a specific form of racism. Antisemites are not focused on what Jews believe, or even on what they do on the basis of their beliefs. Modern antisemites, like Nazis, care about who your mother's mother's mother was. Just like racism, antisemitism has become a hatred of people, as people, not because of their beliefs or their behavior, but because of the mere circumstances of their birth.
I'll save you some key strokes. Sam Harris is an idiot, and isn't making a good point.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 07, 2023, 06:51:25 AM
No, I didn't say that. I'll accept your apology for your inaccurate and inflammatory statement.
Reek, reek it rhymes with leek.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 07, 2023, 07:11:50 AM
Reek, reek it rhymes with leek.
Leeks have been part of a well-balanced diet for well over a millennia
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 05:11:39 AM
https://www.city-journal.org/article/harvards-double-standard-on-free-speech
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/education/ivy-league-hypocrisy-free-speech-activists-history-censorship
https://www.city-journal.org/article/double-standards-at-princeton
https://www.campusreform.org/article/1400-alumni-faculty-parents-accuse-yale-of-glaring-double-standard-ignoring-threats-against-jewish-students/24403
https://www.ncregister.com/news/does-georgetown-university-respect-free-speech
——
Regarding the tweeter, that would be Jonathan Haidt.
He wrote an entire book about microagessions
https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897?nodl=1&dplnkId=84a5f16e-c34a-4cc8-9e90-d5d087766bbd
https://www.likevillepodcast.com/articles/2020/8/14/microaggressions-a-selection-from-greg-lukianoff-amp-jonathan-haidts-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind-2018
LOL. So no examples of "universities being quick to punish microaggressions," just more of your culture war nonsense.
Not a serious person indeed.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 05:11:39 AM
https://www.city-journal.org/article/harvards-double-standard-on-free-speech
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/education/ivy-league-hypocrisy-free-speech-activists-history-censorship
https://www.city-journal.org/article/double-standards-at-princeton
https://www.campusreform.org/article/1400-alumni-faculty-parents-accuse-yale-of-glaring-double-standard-ignoring-threats-against-jewish-students/24403
https://www.ncregister.com/news/does-georgetown-university-respect-free-speech
——
Regarding the tweeter, that would be Jonathan Haidt.
He wrote an entire book about microagessions
https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897?nodl=1&dplnkId=84a5f16e-c34a-4cc8-9e90-d5d087766bbd
https://www.likevillepodcast.com/articles/2020/8/14/microaggressions-a-selection-from-greg-lukianoff-amp-jonathan-haidts-the-coddling-of-the-american-mind-2018
I read your five articles (did not read Haight's book). Unsurprisingly, they contain 0 examples of a university punishing someone for a microaggression. In fact, they contain few examples of anyone being punished (and the few examples were not in response to microagressions). One of the articles even focuses on a professor who was accused of wrongdoing and was cleared by the university.
What these articles detail is various examples of mostly students and a few employees using their free speech to denounce, protest, and call for punishment (which the university ignores) for employees whose speech they disagree with. This isn't punishment, this is more free speech. You can argue that some of these students and employees are being hypocritical "free speech for me but not for thee", but again, that's not the university punishing someone for a microaggression.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 07, 2023, 06:56:05 AM
I'll save you some key strokes. Sam Harris is an idiot, and isn't making a good point.
So I definitely agree that the way he tries to classify Judaism and Islam as races vs religions is beyond sloppy. But I also think that the sloppiness springs from a decent instinct. To my ear he is trying to point out that as currently exemplified, Islamic political governance is incompatible with political stability that is rooted in Western liberalism. I think his focus on race vs religion is his attempt to say "this isn't because Arabs, Persians, etc., are incapable of living in societies that privilege Western freedoms, but because they ascribe to a religion that is in the midst of a dogmatic struggle with itself to determine if it can co-exist with liberal values." And I don't think any of that is wrong. But again, I agree that the race vs religion label obscures the necessity of the underlying conversation (in no small part becuase everything Harris says has evolved into a preemptive jab at his critics).
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 12:28:37 AM
No it's not a separate issue. All of these universities (like the vast majority of private universities) have policies that guarantee that they will honor enrolled students' and employees' first amendment rights. They legally cannot have anything in their code of conduct that violates a student or employee's first amendment right. If they do, it is a breach of contract and they are legally liable. If any of these universities attempt to punish a student or employee for protected speech, they will end up paying that student or employee hundreds of thousands if not millions in damages. So unless you would like these universities to start directly funding antisemites, they cannot punish protected speech.
Calling on universities to punish protected speech is calling for something illegal, un-American, and frankly antisemitic (again, cause you are encouraging universities to directly fund antisemites).
The 1st amendment protects hate speech but a University President or a employer or company can discipline someone who engages in these acts any way they choose.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 08:03:10 AM
I read your five articles (did not read Haight's book). Unsurprisingly, they contain 0 examples of a university punishing someone for a microaggression. In fact, they contain few examples of anyone being punished (and the few examples were not in response to microagressions). One of the articles even focuses on a professor who was accused of wrongdoing and was cleared by the university.
What these articles detail is various examples of mostly students and a few employees using their free speech to denounce, protest, and call for punishment (which the university ignores) for employees whose speech they disagree with. This isn't punishment, this is more free speech. You can argue that some of these students and employees are being hypocritical "free speech for me but not for thee", but again, that's not the university punishing someone for a microaggression.
It's a Douchey Special. Just throw out a bunch of links that don't prove what you think they do, assume people won't open the links, and say, "See, I'm right."
Then, when called on it, just move onto the next topic (or next version of the same topic) and the next set of links. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Again, the bottom line of Douchey and his Doucheables here on Scoop:
College student says something antisemitic = raging antisemite. He or she should be kicked off campus, and should never, ever be able to be hired for any job by any company.
Grown-up with actual power and influence says something antisemitic or accepts support from antisemites = probably or definitely not an antisemite. I'll back his or her right to free speech; I'll twist myself into a pretzel to justify how his or her antisemitism isn't really antisemitism; and if he or she is a politician, I'll happily vote for him or her. 'Murica!
They choose not to...pathetic, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 07, 2023, 09:45:04 AM
The 1st amendment protects hate speech but a University President or a employer or company can discipline someone who engages in these acts any way they choose.
Nope. Most public universities cannot restrict such speech except for providing guidelines for time, place and manner. Most private universities follow similar rules as well.
Ah bullchit! If you have a backbone, you do what's morally right, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2023, 09:55:34 AM
Ah bullchit! If you have a backbone, you do what's morally right, aina?
Huh
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2023, 09:55:34 AM
Ah bullchit! If you have a backbone, you do what's morally right, aina?
Am I in bizarro Scoop or something?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 07, 2023, 09:45:04 AM
The 1st amendment protects hate speech but a University President or a employer or company can discipline someone who engages in these acts any way they choose.
A university president can discipline someone for speech any way they choose?
Tell that to President Lovell.
I hope these schools get hit very hard with donors withholdin' money. Those in charge of advancement can pound sand tryin' to get donations from their international alums. Harvard and Penn will not be just fine, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2023, 10:01:26 AM
I hope these schools get hit very hard with donors withholdin' money. Those in charge of advancement can pound sand tryin' to get donations from their international alums. Harvard and Penn will not be just fine, aina?
Nope. They'll be fine.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2023, 10:01:26 AM
I hope these schools politicians, such as the 91-felony Criminal Defendant, who accept and solicit support from antisemites get hit very hard with donors withholdin' money and with voters choosing other candidates.
FIFY
Thanks for finally seeing the light and really wanting to do something about antisemitism in America and beyond!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2023, 10:01:26 AM
I hope these schools get hit very hard with donors withholdin' money. Those in charge of advancement can pound sand tryin' to get donations from their international alums. Harvard and Penn will not be just fine, aina?
Harvard's endowment sits at nearly $51 billion.
Penn's is a mere $20.7 billion.
They'll be just fine.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 07, 2023, 09:45:04 AM
The 1st amendment protects hate speech but a University President or a employer or company can discipline someone who engages in these acts any way they choose.
Private employer yes. Private company yes. Public employer no. University president no.
The first amendment prevents government entities from punishing anyone for engaging in protected speech. So that covers all public universities. The vast majority of private universities have a policy that guarentees that they will honor the first amendment rights of students and employees. This is a binding contract that goes into effect the moment a student enrolls or an employee signs their offer letter. The courts have unanimously held that private universities with these policies (which again is the vast majority and 100%of the Ivies) are unable to punish students or employees for engaging in protected speech. If universities violate this, the courts will ensure that any punishment is reversed and the university must pay damages, usually in the hundreds of thousands.
Muggsy, a sizeable chunk of my job is evaluating whether allegations of hate speech are protected speech or not. I promise you, I have a very intimate understanding of the first amendment and how it intersects with universities.
You know how it is, TAMU ... protect my right to freedom of speech but don't protect his or hers, because only I speak the truth about vermin like them.
What is abundantly clear, is that many scoopers, particularly the dentist crowd and like-minded individuals, do not understand the difference between protecting 1st amendment rights, and disagreeing with and condemning ones statements/beliefs.
As TAMU has correctly pointed out, most private institutions have policies that 100% protect 1st amendment rights, which the courts then hold them to in lawsuits.
That prohibits the Universities from infringing on 1st amendment rights, by punishing individuals for their protected speech, without legal consequences.
That does not prohibit anyone associated with the University, from criticizing the content of ones protected speech. That criticism is also protected speech.
I don't envy TAMU's position of trying to determine when hate speech is protected or not, it is one of the most challenging legal questions, which is why people get up in arms about it (usually they don't understand the legal issues with protected speech). That means, sometimes, universities must allow abhorrent and reprehensible speech, because legally it is protected.
If you don't like it, the way you deal with abhorrent protected speech, is to speak up against it. Banning it is antithetical to our nations principles and the 1st amendment, as our founding fathers recognized that a centralized "moral authority" that dictates what is correct stymies progress, and threatens the expression of free thought, as today you might agree with the "moral authority," but tomorrow they might come for your protected speech and silence you.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 08:03:10 AM
I read your five articles (did not read Haight's book). Unsurprisingly, they contain 0 examples of a university punishing someone for a microaggression. In fact, they contain few examples of anyone being punished (and the few examples were not in response to microagressions). One of the articles even focuses on a professor who was accused of wrongdoing and was cleared by the university.
What these articles detail is various examples of mostly students and a few employees using their free speech to denounce, protest, and call for punishment (which the university ignores) for employees whose speech they disagree with. This isn't punishment, this is more free speech. You can argue that some of these students and employees are being hypocritical "free speech for me but not for thee", but again, that's not the university punishing someone for a microaggression.
How do you define microaggression? Why is not creating a double standard about free speech? Some things are acceptable to say, and others are not (because they are microaggressions)?
The links contain many examples of punishment, professors being fired, speakers being denied because students can claim a microaggression, and a speech double standard was created.
Quote from: forgetful on December 07, 2023, 12:31:07 PM
What is abundantly clear, is that many scoopers, particularly the dentist crowd and like-minded individuals, do not understand the difference between protecting 1st amendment rights, and disagreeing with and condemning ones statements/beliefs.
As TAMU has correctly pointed out, most private institutions have policies that 100% protect 1st amendment rights, which the courts then hold them to in lawsuits.
That prohibits the Universities from infringing on 1st amendment rights, by punishing individuals for their protected speech, without legal consequences.
That does not prohibit anyone associated with the University, from criticizing the content of ones protected speech. That criticism is also protected speech.
I don't envy TAMU's position of trying to determine when hate speech is protected or not, it is one of the most challenging legal questions, which is why people get up in arms about it (usually they don't understand the legal issues with protected speech). That means, sometimes, universities must allow abhorrent and reprehensible speech, because legally it is protected.
If you don't like it, the way you deal with abhorrent protected speech, is to speak up against it. Banning it is antithetical to our nations principles and the 1st amendment, as our founding fathers recognized that a centralized "moral authority" that dictates what is correct stymies progress, and threatens the expression of free thought, as today you might agree with the "moral authority," but tomorrow they might come for your protected speech and silence you.
Universities have a code of conduct. And the University presidents were unable to say why the calls for genocide against the Jews violated that code.
If they consistently applied their code of conduct then:
Holding a Palestinian flag, wearing a keffiyeh, and calling for Indafida (which is a violent uprising against Jews) = Holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, and calling for lynching blacks
And both would be allowed, or both would not be allowed. Not one versus the other.
Charlottesville revealed the double standard.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 12:47:27 PM
Universities have a code of conduct. And the University presidents were unable to say why the calls for genocide against the Jews violated that code.
If they consistently applied their code of conduct then:
Holding a Palestinian flag, wearing a keffiyeh, and calling for Indafida (which is a violent uprising against Jews) = Holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, and calling for lynching blacks
And both would be allowed, or both would not be allowed. Not one versus the other.
Charlottesville revealed the double standard.
Charlottesville where someone died?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 12:34:52 PM
How do you define microaggression? Why is not creating a double standard about free speech? Some things are acceptable to say, and others are not (because they are microaggressions)?
The links contain many examples of punishment, professors being fired, speakers being denied because students can claim a microaggression, and a speech double standard was created.
Again, you made an assertion. You failed to provide evidence. So you moved the goalposts. Again.
Not a serious person.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 12:47:27 PM
Charlottesville revealed the double standard.
What?
There was a march there filled with racists and antisemites. They had the freedom of speech to rally on behalf of Confederate statues that the vast majority of Black Americans find offensive; and they had the freedom of speech to carry torches and chant, "Jews will not replace us!"
Heck, the sitting president advocated for keeping all Confederate statues in place and said those racists and antisemites were "very fine people."
Freedom!
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 12:34:52 PM
How do you define microaggression? Why is not creating a double standard about free speech? Some things are acceptable to say, and others are not (because they are microaggressions)?
The links contain many examples of punishment, professors being fired, speakers being denied because students can claim a microaggression, and a speech double standard was created.
You may need to spell some of these out for me because I only found one example of a professor being fired and he was fired for having an inappropriate relationship with a student (which he doesn't deny). That professor claims that this was a convenient excuse to fire him for protected speech but again, he doesn't deny that he had an inappropriate relationship with a student which is usually grounds for termination.
I think you are asking for the wrong definition. Speakers being denied is not a punishment. A punishment involves putting a student or employee on review or probation or separating them from the university. Uninviting a speaker is not a punishment. "A speech double standard being created" is also not a punishment. It's also not true. Universities have remained very consistent on not punishing students or employees for protected speech.
What are you labeling as "punishment" is again mostly students and a few employees using their free speech to denounce, protest, and demand punishment for (which is ignored by universities) individuals who engage in free speech that they disagree with. The difference is, college students as a whole are much more socially progressive than the average population (which has always been the case). So the majority of protected speech that occurs on college campuses is socially progressive. This volume gives the impression that socially progressive speech is more favored, when in reality, they are treated the same in terms of punishment. Neither side gets punished for protected speech.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 12:47:27 PM
Universities have a code of conduct. And the University presidents were unable to say why the calls for genocide against the Jews violated that code.
University codes of conduct are not allowed to infringe on first amendment rights. This has been covered. The university presidents were able to say why the calls for genocide against the Jews may or may not violate their codes. The correct answer is whether or not the speech was protected or whether it crossed the line into a form of unprotected speech. Reality is, most of if not all of what has been reported falls under protected speech. Same would be true no matter what protected classes were involved.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 12:47:27 PM
If they consistently applied their code of conduct then:
Holding a Palestinian flag, wearing a keffiyeh, and calling for Indafida (which is a violent uprising against Jews) = Holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, and calling for lynching blacks
Provide one example of a university punishing a student or employee for holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, or calling for lynching blacks (and nothing else).
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 12:47:27 PM
Charlottesville revealed the double standard.
The hell? What students or employees were punished by the University of Virginia for participating in the Unite the Right Rally? They were allowed to march through campus the night before. The main protest didn't take place on campus.
TAMU,
Much respect to you. And sincerely appreciate your expertise.
But Heisy ain't here for good faith discussion.
Quote from: forgetful on December 06, 2023, 07:52:45 AM
Really confused by his post. Seems like he is ok with absurd abuse... because it's only war.
Maybe he was ok with the US raping women, and children, and sodomizing children (sometimes with their mothers forced to watch) at Abu Ghraib, because it was war.
Repeat after me:
War does not justify horrific atrocities. Hamas' actions were horrific and wrong.
Historical atrocities in war does not justify future atrocities.
Sexual violence against anyone is never justified.
It fascinates me how we all claim to fight for freedom, human rights, fair treatment, life and then throw it all away in the name of war, religion, politics. This war is an absolute travesty, the last effects of how we treat each other or how we solidify our biases might end up being even worse.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 06, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Religion was a mistake.
Caused more senseless death than anything that ever was, is, or will be.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 07, 2023, 03:23:48 PM
TAMU,
Much respect to you. And sincerely appreciate your expertise.
But Heisy ain't here for good faith discussion.
I'm aware. It's honestly not for him. There is a lot of misinformation about the first amendment and other people who read this discussion may honestly not realize the misinformation being shared here. I'm not close to an expert on Israel/Palestine so I prefer to listen. On the first amendment I know a thing or two and enjoy adding to the discussion.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 04:09:13 PM
I'm aware. It's honestly not for him. There is a lot of misinformation about the first amendment and other people who read this discussion may honestly not realize the misinformation being shared here. I'm not close to an expert on Israel/Palestine so I prefer to listen. On the first amendment I know a thing or two and enjoy adding to the discussion.
I also appreciate you chiming in here. This is your ballpark, and appreciate your knowledge and contributions.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 07, 2023, 12:49:03 PM
Charlottesville where someone died?
Becuase counter-protestors got violent. (I'm suggesting this was a failure of law enforcement to keep the two groups apart ... something we have seen all too often in the last two months).
And why were the counter protestors so big and aggressive, because they so vehemently opposed to their message.
And, to be clear, I agree with this, but not the aggressive nature that lead to violence.
I cannot see how these three University Presidents survive much longer (Penn, Harvard and MIT).
A big part of their job is fund raising and they have now made this environment toxic. As noted here before, big donations to elite Universities are vanity projects. Not when this is happening.
Anyone that now gives has to answer for the President's words. They will not get the praise and adulation these seek with these donations, instead they will be peppered with uncomfortable questions, especially if they are Jewish.
And winter graduation is coming. The University President presides over it and these ceremonies should be expected to be a complete circus with protestors and disruptions, most likely from both sides.
And who wants to accept an honorary degree, or be the commencement speaker, from these Presidents, instead of the praise and adulation they also seek, they will get the same barrage of uncomfortable questions.
——-
Penn loses $100 million donation over antisemitism hearing
https://www.axios.com/2023/12/07/upenn-antisemitism-magill-100-million-donation
The big picture: The final straw for Ross Stevens, founder and CEO of Stone Ridge Asset Management, was Tuesday's widely criticized congressional testimony by Penn president Liz Magill.
Details: The gift from Stevens, a Penn undergrad alum, was given in December 2017 to help establish a center for innovation in finance.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 04:55:15 PM
I cannot see how these three University Presidents survive much longer (Penn, Harvard and MIT).
A big part of their job is fund raising and they have now made this environment toxic. As noted here before, big donations to elite Universities are vanity projects. Not when this is happening.
Anyone that now gives has to answer for the President's words. They will not get the praise and adulation these seek with these donations, instead they will be peppered with uncomfortable questions, especially if they are Jewish.
And winter graduation is coming. The University President presides over it and these ceremonies should be expected to be a complete circus with protestors and disruptions, most likely from both sides.
And who wants to accept an honorary degree, or be the commencement speaker, from these Presidents, instead of the praise and adulation they also seek, they will get the same barrage of uncomfortable questions.
——-
Penn loses $100 million donation over antisemitism hearing
https://www.axios.com/2023/12/07/upenn-antisemitism-magill-100-million-donation
The big picture: The final straw for Ross Stevens, founder and CEO of Stone Ridge Asset Management, was Tuesday's widely criticized congressional testimony by Penn president Liz Magill.
Details: The gift from Stevens, a Penn undergrad alum, was given in December 2017 to help establish a center for innovation in finance.
This will definitely make a difference for Israel
Man you are super deep into this weird culture war political bs. You should take a break from the internet and cable news man.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 07, 2023, 05:10:10 PM
Man you are super deep into this weird culture war political bs. You should take a break from the internet and cable news man.
Can't stop now. The battle lines are reforming over the War on XMas
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 02:25:51 PM
University codes of conduct are not allowed to infringe on first amendment rights. This has been covered. The university presidents were able to say why the calls for genocide against the Jews may or may not violate their codes. The correct answer is whether or not the speech was protected or whether it crossed the line into a form of unprotected speech. Reality is, most of if not all of what has been reported falls under protected speech. Same would be true no matter what protected classes were involved.
Provide one example of a university punishing a student or employee for holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, or calling for lynching blacks (and nothing else).
The hell? What students or employees were punished by the University of Virginia for participating in the Unite the Right Rally? They were allowed to march through campus the night before. The main protest didn't take place on campus.
Let's cut to the chase.
Is it your contention that Universities have been applying their code of conduct and the application of the First Amendment consistently across all protests?
That they treat priests against LBGT, gender, pro-life, and even uncomfortable protests from white kids in favor of their race (in previous years past), or defense of the confederate flag/statues, the same as they are currently treating the anti-Israel/Anti-Semitic protests?
I believe like many they have not. They came down harsh on the protests they did not like (like those listed above) and not have "suddenly" have become first amendment warriors when it comes to the anti-Semitic protests happening now (and again last night at many universities).
Do you think Universities would apply their code of conduct, and First Amendment obligations consistently here?
Holding a Palestinian flag, wearing a keffiyeh, and calling for Intafida (which is a violent uprising against Jews)
=
Holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, and calling for lynchings.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 07, 2023, 05:10:10 PM
Man you are super deep into this weird culture war political bs. You should take a break from the internet and cable news man.
What is a culture war?
https://apple.news/AxiDdP9L4TGGSd_IF45aJEg
Bravo Ross Stevens and Stone Ridge Asset Management. Maybe Penn won't be fine, Fluffy, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2023, 05:18:49 PM
https://apple.news/AxiDdP9L4TGGSd_IF45aJEg
Bravo Ross Stevens and Stone Ridge Asset Management. Maybe Penn won't be fine, Fluffy, hey?
They will be
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 07, 2023, 05:14:40 PM
Can't stop now. The battle lines are reforming over the War on XMas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A9XIcYUG-8
Quote from: Pakuni on December 07, 2023, 05:20:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A9XIcYUG-8
It's pretty anti-semitic to celebrate Christmas this year. That's why I'm cancelling my donation to Marquette
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 04:43:39 PM
Becuase counter-protestors got violent. (I'm suggesting this was a failure of law enforcement to keep the two groups apart ... something we have seen all too often in the last two months).
And why were the counter protestors so big and aggressive, because they so vehemently opposed to their message.
And, to be clear, I agree with this, but not the aggressive nature that lead to violence.
It's not especially surprising but it is perfect that the people you had the biggest problem with in Charlottesville were NOT the very fine white supremacists who were trying to justify racist and treasonous symbols, were NOT the very fine neo-Nazis carrying torches and chanting antisemitic slogans, and was NOT the very fine murderer.
Effen antifa! Just like on 1/6/21. Always antifa. And Soros. And The Deep State.
Keep up the fight, Douchey.
Happy Hanukkah everyone, including all the anti-semites on Scoop.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 05:15:02 PM
Let's cut to the chase.
Is it your contention that Universities have been applying their code of conduct and the application of the First Amendment consistently across all protests?
That they treat priests against LBGT, gender, pro-life, and even uncomfortable protests from white kids in favor of their race (in previous years past), or defense of the confederate flag/statues, the same as they are currently treating the anti-Israel/Anti-Semitic protests?
I believe like many they have not. They came down harsh on the protests they did not like (like those listed above) and not have "suddenly" have become first amendment warriors when it comes to the anti-Semitic protests happening now (and again last night at many universities).
Do you think Universities would apply their code of conduct, and First Amendment obligations consistently here?
Holding a Palestinian flag, wearing a keffiyeh, and calling for Intafida (which is a violent uprising against Jews)
=
Holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, and calling for lynchings.
Too far gone.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 07, 2023, 06:03:37 PM
Happy Hanukkah everyone, including all the anti-semites on Scoop.
So, everyone.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 07, 2023, 05:15:02 PM
Let's cut to the chase.
Is it your contention that Universities have been applying their code of conduct and the application of the First Amendment consistently across all protests?
That they treat priests against LBGT, gender, pro-life, and even uncomfortable protests from white kids in favor of their race (in previous years past), or defense of the confederate flag/statues, the same as they are currently treating the anti-Israel/Anti-Semitic protests?
I believe like many they have not. They came down harsh on the protests they did not like (like those listed above) and not have "suddenly" have become first amendment warriors when it comes to the anti-Semitic protests happening now (and again last night at many universities).
Do you think Universities would apply their code of conduct, and First Amendment obligations consistently here?
Holding a Palestinian flag, wearing a keffiyeh, and calling for Intafida (which is a violent uprising against Jews)
=
Holding a confederate flag, wearing a KKK hood, and calling for lynchings.
When it comes to punishing students and employees for protected speech, yes i do.
Can you give me one example of a university punishing someone for participating in a protest (and nothing else)?
Until you can do that, your argument has no legs to stand on.
Quote from: MU82 on December 07, 2023, 05:56:49 PM
It's not especially surprising but it is perfect that the people you had the biggest problem with in Charlottesville were NOT the very fine white supremacists who were trying to justify racist and treasonous symbols, were NOT the very fine neo-Nazis carrying torches and chanting antisemitic slogans, and was NOT the very fine murderer.
Effen antifa! Just like on 1/6/21. Always antifa. And Soros. And The Deep State.
Keep up the fight, Douchey.
I lost my 82 decoder ring, so I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 07, 2023, 06:51:40 PM
When it comes to punishing students and employees for protected speech, yes i do.
Can you give me one example of a university punishing someone for participating in a protest (and nothing else)?
Until you can do that, your argument has no legs to stand on.
I asked
Is it your contention that Universities have been applying their code of conduct and the application of the First Amendment consistently across all protests?You redefined what I wrote into a very narrow definition to eliminate many types of code of conduct and First Amendment applications.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wisconsin-marquette/wisconsin-top-court-orders-marquette-to-reinstate-conservative-professor-idUSKBN1JW2F2/
Wharton board calls on Penn president Liz Magill to resign
https://www.axios.com/2023/12/08/penn-antisemitism-wharton-magill-resign
University of Pennsylvania President Liz Magill is being asked to resign by the board of Penn's Wharton business school, according to a letter obtained by Axios.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 08, 2023, 12:15:13 AM
I asked Is it your contention that Universities have been applying their code of conduct and the application of the First Amendment consistently across all protests?
You redefined what I wrote into a very narrow definition to eliminate many types of code of conduct and First Amendment applications.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wisconsin-marquette/wisconsin-top-court-orders-marquette-to-reinstate-conservative-professor-idUSKBN1JW2F2/
Heisey, the only conversation I have ever had in this thread is whether universities can punish students and employees for protected speech (which is what Ackman and others like him are calling for universities to do). I'm not sure what "many types of code of conduct" you are referring to, but I am referring to any and all university policies. I am also not sure what you mean by "many types of First Amendment applications" but I am and only ever have been discussing universities' ability to punish students and employees for protected speech.
I was wondering when you or someone would try to use the McAdams case in this discussion. McAdams was not a first amendment case despite conservatives trying to paint it as one. McAdams had posted conservative hot taeks on his blog for decades without any sort of action from Marquette. Marquette was very clear that he was suspended due to doxxing a graduate student after previously being warned not to dox students (a suspension that could/would have been ended if McAdams had apologized for doxxing the student but McAdams refused). Marquette asserted (correctly imo) that this was harassment (which is not protected by the first amendment). The Milwaukee County Circuit Court agreed and dismissed the case. The conservative controlled state supreme court didn't even attempt a first amendment argument, rather they decided that Marquette violated their contract with McAdams by considering an extramural comment which they argued was not allowed when considering the revocation of tenure and fell under the protection of academic freedom (which is different from the First Amendment). And what has always been hilarious to me about this decision is that a conservative controlled court voted to strengthen the protections of tenure. So the next time a liberal professor in Wisconsin makes an extramural comment about being anti-White or anti-Israel and takes to harassing students to make their point, they can thank the the conservative justices of Wisconsin Supreme Court for making sure they still have a job.
Now I asked you a question about your contention that universities "came down harsh on protests they did not like". Can you provide me with an example where a student or employee was punished simply for participating in a protest? I imagine that at least a few isolated examples exist, but my guess is that you don't actually know of any and are just repeating talking points.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2023, 05:18:49 PM
https://apple.news/AxiDdP9L4TGGSd_IF45aJEg
Bravo Ross Stevens and Stone Ridge Asset Management. Maybe Penn won't be fine, Fluffy, hey?
They absolutely will be fine.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 08, 2023, 04:47:11 AM
They absolutely will be fine.
of course they will be. they always have the ole biden center with it's influx of $14 mil from "un named" chinese donors and another $2.5mil from the saudi's to fall back on. nothing to do with his "smartest guy he knows" influence err anything cuz he never discussed any CEFC biness with him or his syndicate. at least not on any of his numerous flights on airforce 2...allegedly
Wharton's board now calling for university prez to resign 👏🏻.
Bravo for the pushback and Penn will not be ok, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 08, 2023, 05:51:47 AM
of course they will be. they always have the ole biden center with it's influx of $14 mil from "un named" chinese donors and another $2.5mil from the saudi's to fall back on. nothing to do with his "smartest guy he knows" influence err anything cuz he never discussed any CEFC biness with him or his syndicate. at least not on any of his numerous flights on airforce 2...allegedly
9 out of 10
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 06:14:02 AM
Wharton's board now calling for university prez to resign 👏🏻.
Bravo for the pushback and Penn will not be ok, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Penn will be just fine
Yeah the President will be fired, they will hire a new President, and they will somehow managed with their low acceptance rate and billion dollar endowment.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 08, 2023, 06:53:26 AM
Yeah the President will be fired, they will hire a new President, and they will somehow managed with their low acceptance rate and billion dollar endowment.
They're just pawns anyway
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 06:14:02 AM
Wharton's board now calling for university prez to resign 👏🏻.
Bravo for the pushback and Penn will not be ok, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
If only someone would call on Elon Musk, MTG and Gosar to resign.
#hypocritesaplenty
I could certainly be wrong but I think the Presidents won't be removed until this dies down. Then they will appoint interims and do long searches so that when they do make a hire, the new president doesn't have to deal with any of this.
Because the reality is, if they are removed, theyre still not going to punish students for protected speech. And the anti-americans who want students punished for protected speech won't be satisfied until that happens. So they will keep these presidents as their sin eaters and then sacrifice them once it's safe for a new president to come in. Unless they decide they're sick of this and resign on their own
Some news leaking out that the Penn board will ask Magill to resign. If she doesn't, she may be fired. I didn't think she would survive this, but I'm uncomfortable that she is being bullied out. This morning was the first time I thought maybe attending Penn could be a detriment to my son.
This is another good example of why the billionaires/ultra rich shouldn't be in charge of our society.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 08, 2023, 10:43:33 AM
This is another good example of why the billionaires/ultra rich shouldn't be in charge of our society.
The hypocrisy is thick
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on December 08, 2023, 10:11:26 AM
Some news leaking out that the Penn board will ask Magill to resign. If she doesn't, she may be fired. I didn't think she would survive this, but I'm uncomfortable that she is being bullied out. This morning was the first time I thought maybe attending Penn could be a detriment to my son.
Where will your son be safe? Jewish students are being bullied and a lot worse. Fk McGill and the rest of these morally bankrupt college presidents. This crap has clearly been going on for a very long time. There must be a swat analysis of what is actually being taught in our colleges all across the country. Start with Sociology departments, Poly-Sci, Anthro, History, Philosophy, Literature, Ed courses, etc.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 08, 2023, 05:51:47 AM
of course they will be. they always have the ole biden center with it's influx of $14 mil from "un named" chinese donors and another $2.5mil from the saudi's to fall back on. nothing to do with his "smartest guy he knows" influence err anything cuz he never discussed any CEFC biness with him or his syndicate. at least not on any of his numerous flights on airforce 2...allegedly
Holy unnatural carnal knowledge
I think it is pretty clear that all scoopers believe Israel has a right to exist, and a right to defend itself.
But on the other side of the spectrum:
Is anyone (besides the dentists, Muggsy, and Heisy), against the establishment of an independent Palestinian state as part of a 2-state solution?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 08, 2023, 11:10:09 AM
Where will your son be safe? Jewish students are being bullied and a lot worse. Fk McGill and the rest of these morally bankrupt college presidents. This crap has clearly been going on for a very long time. There must be a swat analysis of what is actually being taught in our colleges all across the country. Start with Sociology departments, Poly-Sci, Anthro, History, Philosophy, Literature, Ed courses, etc.
yes, we need to keep this churning atop the culture war heap for about another 11 months, wouldn't you say?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 08, 2023, 11:10:09 AM
Where will your son be safe? Jewish students are being bullied and a lot worse. Fk McGill and the rest of these morally bankrupt college presidents. This crap has clearly been going on for a very long time. There must be a swat analysis of what is actually being taught in our colleges all across the country. Start with Sociology departments, Poly-Sci, Anthro, History, Philosophy, Literature, Ed courses, etc.
What is being taught is far more conservative than what the college students believe. Students on average, are for more left-leaning than their professors.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 08, 2023, 08:50:15 AM
I could certainly be wrong but I think the Presidents won't be removed until this dies down. Then they will appoint interims and do long searches so that when they do make a hire, the new president doesn't have to deal with any of this.
Because the reality is, if they are removed, theyre still not going to punish students for protected speech. And the anti-americans who want students punished for protected speech won't be satisfied until that happens. So they will keep these presidents as their sin eaters and then sacrifice them once it's safe for a new president to come in. Unless they decide they're sick of this and resign on their own
You could be correct, but Penn is acting with some urgency. And if McGill goes soon, I don't expect the rest to survive much longer.
(And as far as finding a new President fast, See Northwestern, Rebecca Blank was leaving Wisconsin to take over in Evanston and, over the summer, announced advanced cancer and stepped down before she started; NU found her replacement in Michael Schill in days. So, it can be done fast.)
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/07/business/penn-emergency-meeting-liz-magill/index.html
The University of Pennsylvania's board of trustees held an emergency meeting Thursday.One source familiar with the board's proceedings told CNN Scott Bok, the chair of Penn's Board of Trustees, was
expected Thursday or Friday to talk to Magill about possibly stepping down. But another source with close knowledge of the board's activity denied that meeting between Bok and Magill was taking place and said the board was not close to holding discussions with Magill about a leadership change.
A spokesperson for Penn said there is no immediate plan for the board to replace Magill.
"There is no board plan for imminent leadership change," the spokesperson said.
Penn currently does not have an interim president lined up if Magill were to step down, a source said.
Quote from: forgetful on December 08, 2023, 11:12:49 AM
I think it is pretty clear that all scoopers believe Israel has a right to exist, and a right to defend itself.
Are we sure about that? He's respectful/non vitriolic in his views so I don't clutch my pearls about it but I don't get that impression about Jesu at all. He's posted nothing but disgust and derision about anything Israel for a solid month, or constant whataboutism at the very least.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 08, 2023, 11:10:09 AM
Where will your son be safe? Jewish students are being bullied and a lot worse. Fk McGill and the rest of these morally bankrupt college presidents. This crap has clearly been going on for a very long time. There must be a swat analysis of what is actually being taught in our colleges all across the country. Start with Sociology departments, Poly-Sci, Anthro, History, Philosophy, Literature, Ed courses, etc.
We need re-education camps, aina?
Quote from: forgetful on December 08, 2023, 11:12:49 AM
I think it is pretty clear that all scoopers believe Israel has a right to exist, and a right to defend itself.
But on the other side of the spectrum:
Is anyone (besides the dentists, Muggsy, and Heisy), against the establishment of an independent Palestinian state as part of a 2-state solution?
The Palestinians have been unable to establish their own functioning state, which is the practical problem in front of us today. I think we will see a 2 state solution with a demilitarized Palestine and a permanent presence of the UN or another peace keeping force agreed upon between the West and the Arab world.
I think this will make everyone pretty unhappy, so it's probably a good compromise.
Edit: This is me agreeing with Egypt's government's stance, btw. El-Sisi has mentioned this as a potential solution. Not saying this as an appeal to authority, just pointing out that I don't have any original ideas
Quote from: forgetful on December 08, 2023, 11:13:48 AM
What is being taught is far more conservative than what the college students believe. Students on average, are for more left-leaning than their professors.
where are the students getting "it" from?
my sister and bro-in-law are conservative and raised all 3 of their kids as such. they came back from state schools (uw, uw-lacrosse) with flowers in their hair. they regret sending their kids off to college because they believe they did not get their monies worth.
both of my kids(MU) returned with their heads still square on their shoulders
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 08, 2023, 11:12:37 AM
Holy unnatural carnal knowledge
you and me both smitty-the amounts of corruption, lies, influence peddling, etc etc going on that the pravdas will not report is holy UCK man bout time you started to wise up
Y'all are comical and have zero notion with what you are obsessed. There will never be a 2 state solution. Why? Because the goal of the Arabs to finish what Hitler started. When people are lining up to be suicide bombers and willingly use their children as human shields, you soon realize the irrationality of the Palestinians, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 11:55:07 AM
Y'all are comical and have zero notion with what you are obsessed. There will never be a 2 state solution. Why? Because the goal of the Arabs to finish what Hitler started. When people are lining up to be suicide bombers and willingly use their children as human shields, you soon realize the irrationality of the Palestinians, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
You've moved from blaming Hamas, to all Palestinians, to all Arabs.
So instead of blaming a group of people, or a country of people, now you're blaming a race of people. Know what that means?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 08, 2023, 11:49:38 AM
where are the students getting "it" from?
my sister and bro-in-law are conservative and raised all 3 of their kids as such. they came back from state schools (uw, uw-lacrosse) with flowers in their hair. they regret sending their kids off to college because they believe they did not get their monies worth.
both of my kids(MU) returned with their heads still square on their shoulders
Sweet Jesus. 9.5 out of 10
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 08, 2023, 11:37:28 AM
The Palestinians have been unable to establish their own functioning state, which is the practical problem in front of us today. I think we will see a 2 state solution with a demilitarized Palestine and a permanent presence of the UN or another peace keeping force agreed upon between the West and the Arab world.
I think this will make everyone pretty unhappy, so it's probably a good compromise.
Edit: This is me agreeing with Egypt's government's stance, btw. El-Sisi has mentioned this as a potential solution. Not saying this as an appeal to authority, just pointing out that I don't have any original ideas
I agree with this and I think it's fair as of right now. I think that's the biggest issue that the proponents of Palestinian freedom are missing right now. If they got all they wanted (short of Israel not existing), including settlers removed from the West Bank and no blockade of Gaza, there is a huge power/leadership vacuum. And the history of the Palestinian leadership in the area has been nearly fully ineffectual/corrupt at best, and Hamas/PIJ/70s terrorist PLO at worst. Even if you remove Israel from the equation, there is still "occupation" needed for some time .
Damn college kids today, with their long hair, and their flower power, and their "love" this and "peace" that, and their rock-n-roll devil's music!
Quote from: JWags85 on December 08, 2023, 11:32:55 AM
Are we sure about that? He's respectful/non vitriolic in his views so I don't clutch my pearls about it but I don't get that impression about Jesu at all. He's posted nothing but disgust and derision about anything Israel for a solid month, or constant whataboutism at the very least.
I believe Israel has a right to exist.
I believe Israel has a right to defend itself and respond to attacks from any/all terrorist groups or nation-states.
I believe Palestinians have a right to exist.
I believe innocent Palestinian citizens being subjected to punishment by Israel simply because a terrorist organization occupies the same geographic area is wrong.
I post what I post because the loudest here only post in one direction. If I, or others, allow this without like-for-like counterbalance, then I believe the "window" will still shift too far in one direction.
I'm happy to discuss things more down the middle at any time.
Quote from: MU82 on December 08, 2023, 12:13:35 PM
Damn college kids today, with their long hair, and their flower power, and their "love" this and "peace" that, and their rock-n-roll devil's music!
Imagine raising a child to think for themselves and make their own decisions as adults and who they associate with.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 08, 2023, 11:49:38 AM
where are the students getting "it" from?
my sister and bro-in-law are conservative and raised all 3 of their kids as such. they came back from state schools (uw, uw-lacrosse) with flowers in their hair. they regret sending their kids off to college because they believe they did not get their monies worth.
both of my kids(MU) returned with their heads still square on their shoulders
I don't think they get "it" from anywhere honestly. I think for at least the past few hundred years, the younger generation has always been more socially progressive than the generation before it. It's the natural order of things.
I think this phenomenon of conservatives claiming that their children were staunch conservatives and then they went to college and were brainwashed is a fabrication meant to shift blame from themselves for having sometimes contensious relationships with their kids. I think in most cases these parents either didn't know their kids very well or didn't allow for an environment where their kids felt safe to express contrary views. These kids then go off to college, get their first taste of independence and begin the journey of self authorship. This gives them confidence and competence to express ideas contrary to their parents. Rather than accepting that their child is their own person with their own opinions and values, some parents choose to blame colleges for brainwashing their kids. Which is really insulting to their own kids (and by extension their own parenting) when you think about it.
Students as a whole in this country are much more socially progressive than faculty as a whole in this country. They aren't learning it here. They're just in an environment that allows them to express it freely amongst other likeminded individuals. For many of them, it's their first time in that kind of environment.
Plenty of land in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Egypt for a Palestinian state. Why hasn't that happened? Oh, those countries don't want their brothers either, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 12:21:46 PM
Plenty of land in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Egypt for a Palestinian state. Why hasn't that happened? Oh, those countries don't want their brothers either, hey?
Like America not wanting Christians, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 08, 2023, 12:18:40 PM
Imagine raising a child to think for themselves and make their own decisions as adults and who they associate with.
No! Every college student must study only dentistry or business!
These college presidents honestly sounded pretty pathetic to me when asked very simple questions. And their apologies were emotionless and came across as statements from pr firms.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 08, 2023, 11:37:28 AM
The Palestinians have been unable to establish their own functioning state, which is the practical problem in front of us today. I think we will see a 2 state solution with a demilitarized Palestine and a permanent presence of the UN or another peace keeping force agreed upon between the West and the Arab world.
I think this will make everyone pretty unhappy, so it's probably a good compromise.
Edit: This is me agreeing with Egypt's government's stance, btw. El-Sisi has mentioned this as a potential solution. Not saying this as an appeal to authority, just pointing out that I don't have any original ideas
Pretty much what I said about a month ago. It's the only path forward.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 11:55:07 AM
Y'all are comical and have zero notion with what you are obsessed. There will never be a 2 state solution. Why? Because the goal of the Arabs to finish what Hitler started. When people are lining up to be suicide bombers and willingly use their children as human shields, you soon realize the irrationality of the Palestinians, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAxhtyiXwAAf9uM?format=jpg&name=large)
And before you say it, yes Drake is Jewish. And yes Drake has used his immense platform to speak out in favor of a ceasefire.
https://www.thefire.org/news/fire-congress-university-presidents-dont-expand-censorship-end-it
https://youtu.be/sCfnuSL_m2c?si=btt6LNWppRk5SolS
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 08, 2023, 11:37:28 AM
The Palestinians have been unable to establish their own functioning state, which is the practical problem in front of us today. I think we will see a 2 state solution with a demilitarized Palestine and a permanent presence of the UN or another peace keeping force agreed upon between the West and the Arab world.
I think this will make everyone pretty unhappy, so it's probably a good compromise.
Edit: This is me agreeing with Egypt's government's stance, btw. El-Sisi has mentioned this as a potential solution. Not saying this as an appeal to authority, just pointing out that I don't have any original ideas
It's going to be incredibly challenging to establish a 2 state solution at this point. The extremes in Israel are against it (the ones Bibi is relying on to maintain power) and the extremes in the surrounding areas are against it.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 08, 2023, 12:18:12 PM
I believe Israel has a right to exist.
I believe Israel has a right to defend itself and respond to attacks from any/all terrorist groups or nation-states.
I believe Palestinians have a right to exist.
I believe innocent Palestinian citizens being subjected to punishment by Israel simply because a terrorist organization occupies the same geographic area is wrong.
I post what I post because the loudest here only post in one direction. If I, or others, allow this without like-for-like counterbalance, then I believe the "window" will still shift too far in one direction.
I'm happy to discuss things more down the middle at any time.
Has Jesmu posted anything untrue? I don't think awareness of thousands dying is whataboutism.
Quote from: MU82 on December 08, 2023, 12:24:22 PM
No! Every college student must study only dentistry or business!
Can Professor McAdams teach my son Intro to Dentistry?
So who in the hell is Drake and why should I give a chit what he says, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 12:21:46 PM
Plenty of land in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Egypt for a Palestinian state. Why hasn't that happened? Oh, those countries don't want their brothers either, hey?
Maybe, because it is their homeland.
Take for instance a group of Palestinian Christians (only ~1000 remain). Their lineage has, continuously, lived in Palestine/Israel since the 1st century, their ancestors may very well have walked with Jesus. One particular group lives in Gaza as many were expelled from Israel during the Nakba. They haven't been allowed to return to their own land/properties.
Many are concerned that they will be wiped out, and the oldest/longest continual christian group will no longer exist.
Why should they go live in Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Egypt...countries, and cultures they have no history with whatsoever. The same story can be said of the rest of the Palestinians, most of whom have lived there for centuries or longer. They are culturally distinct from any of those other countries. Why should they have to leave, why should they be denied a right to self-determination in an independent state along side Israel.
Why are you against Palestine and Israel coexisting side by side.
History will show you that there never was a country recognized as Palestine. It never existed. I explained early that a 2 state solution cannot work if 1 side is fixated on eradicating every Jew, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 08, 2023, 12:56:42 PM
Has Jesmu posted anything untrue? I don't think awareness of thousands dying is whataboutism.
To be fair to wags, I don't think I've posted much, if any, explicitly anti-hamas or pro-israel stuff.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 01:46:29 PM
History will show you that there never was a country recognized as Palestine. It never existed. I explained early that a 2 state solution cannot work if 1 side is fixated on eradicating every Jew, hey?
Do you think there's a segment of Zionism or Jewish folks that are fixated on eradicating every Palestinian?
I don't think any Jew can rest easy when the goal is to eradicate you from the face of the earth. Terrorist groups have surfaced periodically throughout history with the sole intent of genocide. That is likely to recur.
The very disturbing factor now is the emergence and acceptance of blatant antisemitism, not only throughout the world, but so evident and accepted in the United States. It is no longer hidden and silent. Frankly, this is how Nazi Germany started and yes, it can happen here and in other countries. Understand that 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust while the entire world watched and did nothing. For those of you who have not visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C., I would urge you to do so. It is a museum unlike all others and is extremely moving, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 08, 2023, 11:54:40 AM
you and me both smitty-the amounts of corruption, lies, influence peddling, etc etc going on that the pravdas will not report is holy UCK man bout time you started to wise up
If only there existed things like, I dunno, evidence, or facts, or proof.
But much like "ivermectin totally works, "they" are just covering it up", reality just gets in the way of your narrative, so best ignore it.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 08, 2023, 12:41:44 PM
These college presidents honestly sounded pretty pathetic to me when asked very simple questions. And their apologies were emotionless and came across as statements from pr firms.
I actually agree that they didn't have good responses though I suspect my reasons are different than yours. What they said was the truth (caveat I have not watched the entire hearings just the few clips that have gone viral) which is what they are required to speak when under oath. I can understand the instict to just stick to answering the question when under oath, but they could have displayed a lot more compassion than they did... but even then I understand the fear. Because if a university president says the wrong thing, they can be accused of "chilling" free speech which is another potential lawsuit.
They had to have known that this line of questioning was coming. They didn't prepare well enough. University presidents need to be politicians as much as they are academics
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 01:36:20 PM
So who in the hell is Drake and why should I give a chit what he says, hey?
a Jewish man who you should tell that he has the wrong opinions about Israel.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 01:46:29 PM
History will show you that there never was a country recognized as Palestine. It never existed. I explained early that a 2 state solution cannot work if 1 side is fixated on eradicating every Jew, hey?
Why do 138 countries know less than you in regards to recognizing the existence and sovereignty of Palestine?
Sweden should know their place damnit!
Anyone angry at the people calling and leaving messages for Judge Enogron and his clerk calling them "dirty Jews"?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 02:25:22 PM
I don't think any Jew can rest easy when the goal is to eradicate you from the face of the earth. Terrorist groups have surfaced periodically throughout history with the sole intent of genocide. That is likely to recur.
The very disturbing factor now is the emergence and acceptance of blatant antisemitism, not only throughout the world, but so evident and accepted in the United States. It is no longer hidden and silent. Frankly, this is how Nazi Germany started and yes, it can happen here and in other countries. Understand that 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust while the entire world watched and did nothing. For those of you who have not visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C., I would urge you to do so. It is a museum unlike all others and is extremely moving, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Consider that the state of Israel has been ghettoizing Palestinians for almost twenty years. They're literally behaving like the Nazi's did towards the Jewish population during WW2.
If Hamas was out to only kill Jewish people, don't you think they'd try... ya know, killing a few somewhere besides Israel? Kinda strange that they don't, isn't it?
They're anti-Israel, not anti-Jewish. And yes, you can separate the two if you possess working brain cells.
And for the record, I've been to the holocaust museum as well as Dachau. The crimes of 80 years ago don't give the state of Israel carte blanche to kill civilians as they see fit.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 08, 2023, 12:18:12 PM
I believe Israel has a right to exist.
I believe Israel has a right to defend itself and respond to attacks from any/all terrorist groups or nation-states.
I believe Palestinians have a right to exist.
I believe innocent Palestinian citizens being subjected to punishment by Israel simply because a terrorist organization occupies the same geographic area is wrong.
I post what I post because the loudest here only post in one direction. If I, or others, allow this without like-for-like counterbalance, then I believe the "window" will still shift too far in one direction.
I'm happy to discuss things more down the middle at any time.
Hamas is not just a terrorist organization that occupies the same geographic area. They are also the government of Gaza.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 08, 2023, 03:39:28 PM
Hamas is not just a terrorist organization that occupies the same geographic area. They are also the government of Gaza.
They're the current unelected government, yes.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 08, 2023, 02:59:52 PM
Anyone angry at the people calling and leaving messages for Judge Enogron and his clerk calling them "dirty Jews"?
IOKIYAR
--signed, 4elder
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 08, 2023, 03:32:42 PM
Consider that the state of Israel has been ghettoizing Palestinians for almost twenty years. They're literally behaving like the Nazi's did towards the Jewish population during WW2.
If Hamas was out to only kill Jewish people, don't you think they'd try... ya know, killing a few somewhere besides Israel? Kinda strange that they don't, isn't it?
They're anti-Israel, not anti-Jewish. And yes, you can separate the two if you possess working brain cells.
And for the record, I've been to the holocaust museum as well as Dachau. The crimes of 80 years ago don't give the state of Israel carte blanche to kill civilians as they see fit.
So you're take is they're not anti-Jewish, they're anti-Israel. Are they anti the existence of a Jewish State? Are you saying if they were anti-Jewish, they would attacking pockets of Jews in Europe and South America? There are essentially two countries with significant Jewish populations: the United States and Israel. Do think Iran is anti-Israel but not anti-Jewish? Because if they were they would be taking out orthodox communities in NYC and Miami? What are you actually saying here about a terrorist organization, controlled by Iran, that has in their charter, the elimination of the State of Israel?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 08, 2023, 03:41:14 PM
They're the current unelected government, yes.
And how does that change things?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 08, 2023, 02:42:00 PM
I actually agree that they didn't have good responses though I suspect my reasons are different than yours. What they said was the truth (caveat I have not watched the entire hearings just the few clips that have gone viral) which is what they are required to speak when under oath. I can understand the instict to just stick to answering the question when under oath, but they could have displayed a lot more compassion than they did... but even then I understand the fear. Because if a university president says the wrong thing, they can be accused of "chilling" free speech which is another potential lawsuit.
They had to have known that this line of questioning was coming. They didn't prepare well enough. University presidents need to be politicians as much as they are academics
Groveling to save her job?
-----
'I Am Sorry': Harvard President Gay Addresses Backlash Over Congressional Testimony on Antisemitism
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/12/8/gay-apology-congressional-remarks/
Harvard President Claudine Gay apologized for her remarks at the end of her congressional testimony, which sparked fierce national criticism and led the leadership of Harvard Hillel to say they don't trust her to protect Jewish students at the University.
"I am sorry," Gay said in an interview with The Crimson on Thursday. "Words matter."
--
"President Gay's failure to properly condemn this speech calls into question her ability to protect Jewish students on Harvard's campus," Hillel's leadership wrote. "President Gay's testimony fails to reassure us that the University is seriously concerned about the antisemitic rhetoric pervasive on campus."
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 08, 2023, 08:50:15 AM
Because the reality is, if they are removed, theyre still not going to punish students for protected speech. And the anti-americans who want students punished for protected speech won't be satisfied until that happens. So they will keep these presidents as their sin eaters and then sacrifice them once it's safe for a new president to come in. Unless they decide they're sick of this and resign on their own
They are calling for intifada, genocide, and threatening Jewish Students. They are words to incite violence and physical assaults, and such words are not protected speech.
It may not matter in the abstract, but no Trustee of any of these three universities is going to defend them.
Bipartisan group of 76 lawmakers demand resignation of Harvard, MIT, UPenn presidents
https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/bipartisan-group-of-76-lawmakers-demand-resignation-of-harvard-mit-upenn-presidents-stefanik-moskowitz-massachusetts-institute-of-technology-university-of-pennsylvania-new-york-antisemitism-israel-hamas-gaza-war-palestine-holocaust-genocide-congress
Dozens of federal lawmakers, led by Reps. Elise Stefanik, R-N.Y., and Jared Moskowitz, D-Fla., sent a letter Friday to the members of the governing boards at Harvard University, the University of Pennsylvania and Massachusetts Institute of Technology calling for them to immediately dismiss their school presidents.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 08, 2023, 01:46:29 PM
History will show you that there never was a country recognized as Palestine. It never existed. I explained early that a 2 state solution cannot work if 1 side is fixated on eradicating every Jew, hey?
I mean most Palestinians have a more direct lineage to the land than most Israelis do. Not that I think that matters when it comes to this current conflict but you're the one bringing up history.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 08, 2023, 04:14:40 PM
I mean most Palestinians have a more direct lineage to the land than most Israelis do. Not that I think that matters when it comes to this current conflict but you're the one bringing up history.
It is the opposite.
Jews are named after Jerusalem. Jesus was a Jew. They have been in these lands for 3,000 years.
Jews occupied the Holylands at least 1,000 years before Islam was invented (610 AD)
In fact, in the 19th century, when the word Palestinian was first used, it was used to describe Jews, not Arabs.
Immanuel Kant, an 18th-century Prussian philosopher who referred to European Jews as "Palestinians living among us."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Jews
Zionism is a political ideology.
Anti-zionism =/= anti-semitism.
If a jewish person is anti-zionist, are they anti-semitic?
Dude there were but a small amount of Jews around the Holy Lands when the Balfour Declaration first arose.
If history matters, and I don't think it does, Germany has a greater claim to Kaliningrad and Armenians have a greater claim to Mount Ararat.
So using history to claim that the Palestinians have no legal claim is specious at best.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 08, 2023, 03:55:46 PM
And how does that change things?
Well the people they're in charge of haven't put them in charge. Seems pretty important and obvious.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 08, 2023, 04:34:06 PM
Dude there were but a small amount of Jews around the Holy Lands when the Balfour Declaration first arose.
If history matters, and I don't think it does, Germany has a greater claim to Kaliningrad and Armenians have a greater claim to Mount Ararat.
So using history to claim that the Palestinians have no legal claim is specious at best.
Well that's what he does best.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 08, 2023, 02:59:52 PM
Anyone angry at the people calling and leaving messages for Judge Enogron and his clerk calling them "dirty Jews"?
Of course not. The judge is picking on the favorite antisemite of folks like Doc, so he IS a dirty Jew.
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 08, 2023, 03:55:05 PM
So you're take is they're not anti-Jewish, they're anti-Israel. Are they anti the existence of a Jewish State? Are you saying if they were anti-Jewish, they would attacking pockets of Jews in Europe and South America? There are essentially two countries with significant Jewish populations: the United States and Israel. Do think Iran is anti-Israel but not anti-Jewish? Because if they were they would be taking out orthodox communities in NYC and Miami? What are you actually saying here about a terrorist organization, controlled by Iran, that has in their charter, the elimination of the State of Israel?
Yes. I'm glad you're figuring this out, finally. The entire reason that the state of Israel isn't well liked isn't
because they're Jewish. It's because the country was created at the peril of the existing population. Muslims and Jewish people lived side by side peacefully for hundreds of years. There is nothing inherently anti-Judaism about Islam.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 08, 2023, 11:59:50 AM
You've moved from blaming Hamas, to all Palestinians, to all Arabs.
So instead of blaming a group of people, or a country of people, now you're blaming a race of people. Know what that means?
The truth is not racist. It's the truth, hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 08, 2023, 12:18:12 PM
I believe Israel has a right to exist.
I believe Israel has a right to defend itself and respond to attacks from any/all terrorist groups or nation-states.
I believe Palestinians have a right to exist.
I believe innocent Palestinian citizens being subjected to punishment by Israel simply because a terrorist organization occupies the same geographic area is wrong.
I post what I post because the loudest here only post in one direction. If I, or others, allow this without like-for-like counterbalance, then I believe the "window" will still shift too far in one direction.
I'm happy to discuss things more down the middle at any time.
A lot has already come up in the thread since this, but wanted to say I appreciate the clarification
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 08, 2023, 04:44:54 PM
There is nothing inherently anti-Judaism about Islam.
How 'bout anti woman?
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 08, 2023, 02:42:00 PM
I actually agree that they didn't have good responses though I suspect my reasons are different than yours. What they said was the truth (caveat I have not watched the entire hearings just the few clips that have gone viral) which is what they are required to speak when under oath. I can understand the instict to just stick to answering the question when under oath, but they could have displayed a lot more compassion than they did... but even then I understand the fear. Because if a university president says the wrong thing, they can be accused of "chilling" free speech which is another potential lawsuit.
They had to have known that this line of questioning was coming. They didn't prepare well enough. University presidents need to be politicians as much as they are academics
I am shocked Magill wasn't prepared better, she had a lot of leeway from my wife, for example, but that has been replaced with frustration and disbelief. I completely understand she was walking a line, and has to. This was nothing but political theater.
Palantir announced it will hire 180 kids suffering from antisemitism on college campus. In other words, you can leave now and start your career, and not wait for graduation.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/palantir-offers-opportunity-students-looking-234921216.html
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 08, 2023, 04:12:01 PM
They are calling for intifada, genocide, and threatening Jewish Students. They are words to incite violence and physical assaults, and such words are not protected speech.
Regarding the bolded, we've been over this. In order to reach the legal standard for incitement, speech must pass "the Brandenburg test". The Brandenburg test has two prongs: 1. "The speech is "directed to inciting or producing
imminent lawless action" and 2. "The speech is
likely to incite or produce such action". Both prongs need to be met in order for speech to be considered unprotected. The name "Brandenburg test" refers to the case where it was developed, Brandenburg v. Ohio. That case centered around the State of Ohio trying to punish a KKK klansman for calling for violence against Black people. The supreme court ruled that Ohio had violated Brandenburg's first amendment rights and explicitly stated that simply advocating for violence is protected speech.
An example of speech that would pass the Brandenburg test (making it unprotected speech) could be someone pointing at someone and yelling "he has a gun, somebody shoot him" (when no actual threat exists). This passes the Brandenburg test because it is directing others to immediately commit lawless action (shooting an innocent bystander) and it is likely to produce that lawless action (because it could reasonably deceive any armed bystander that there was a threat that justified self-defense). To apply it to the current topic, an anti-Israel protestor telling an already riled up anti-Israel protest, "let's go vandalize that synagogue right across the street" would (imo) pass the Brandenburg test. Calls for intifada or genocide, or saying "From the River to the Sea"? These don't pass the Brandenburg test because they are not imminent and are not likely to spark lawless action. In fact, the Brandburg test was specifically created to ensure that general advocacy of violence was considered protected speech. In regrards to the current topic, it's despicable, disgusting hate speech. But it is also protected speech. If you have issue with this, your fight is with the US Constitution and the Supreme Court.
Regarding the underlined, general threats of violence against a protected class are considered protected speech. There is however an exception for "true threats". In order for something to be considered a "true threat" the government (which includes universities) must prove that "the speaker meant to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit unlawful violence
against a particular individual or group of individuals." To give an example regarding the current topic, someone saying "I am going to get a gun and shoot up this Jewish Community Center" would be considered a true threat because there is a direct threat of violence to a specific group of individuals (anyone who works at or frequents that particular community center). We saw something similar to this at Cornell recently and the speaker was correctly arrested. On the other hand, someone stating "kill all Jews" is a deplorable antisemite...but is also engaging in protected speech. Again, if you have an issue with that, your fight is with the US Constitution and the Supreme Court.
I have not reviewed every single story out there but while I have seen many stories of Jewish students feeling threatened (for very good reason), I have seen very few stories of Jewish students being targeted by "true threats". The few stories I have seen (like the previously mentioned one at Cornell) have resulted in swift action by universities. That is not to minimize the terror and anxiety felt by Jewish students and caused by some of these protestors, it is merely a recognition of what is and isn't allowed by the First Amendment.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 09, 2023, 12:52:10 AM
Regarding the bolded, we've been over this. In order to reach the legal standard for incitement, speech must pass "the Brandenburg test". The Brandenburg test has two prongs: 1. "The speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action" and 2. "The speech is likely to incite or produce such action". Both prongs need to be met in order for speech to be considered unprotected. The name "Brandenburg test" refers to the case where it was developed, Brandenburg v. Ohio. That case centered around the State of Ohio trying to punish a KKK klansman for calling for violence against Black people. The supreme court ruled that Ohio had violated Brandenburg's first amendment rights and explicitly stated that simply advocating for violence is protected speech.
An example of speech that would pass the Brandenburg test (making it unprotected speech) could be someone pointing at someone and yelling "he has a gun, somebody shoot him" (when no actual threat exists). This passes the Brandenburg test because it is directing others to immediately commit lawless action (shooting an innocent bystander) and it is likely to produce that lawless action (because it could reasonably deceive any armed bystander that there was a threat that justified self-defense). To apply it to the current topic, an anti-Israel protestor telling an already riled up anti-Israel protest, "let's go vandalize that synagogue right across the street" would (imo) pass the Brandenburg test. Calls for intifada or genocide, or saying "From the River to the Sea"? These don't pass the Brandenburg test because they are not imminent and are not likely to spark lawless action. In fact, the Brandburg test was specifically created to ensure that general advocacy of violence was considered protected speech. In regrards to the current topic, it's despicable, disgusting hate speech. But it is also protected speech. If you have issue with this, your fight is with the US Constitution and the Supreme Court.
Regarding the underlined, general threats of violence against a protected class are considered protected speech. There is however an exception for "true threats". In order for something to be considered a "true threat" the government (which includes universities) must prove that "the speaker meant to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit unlawful violence against a particular individual or group of individuals." To give an example regarding the current topic, someone saying "I am going to get a gun and shoot up this Jewish Community Center" would be considered a true threat because there is a direct threat of violence to a specific group of individuals (anyone who works at or frequents that particular community center). We saw something similar to this at Cornell recently and the speaker was correctly arrested. On the other hand, someone stating "kill all Jews" is a deplorable antisemite...but is also engaging in protected speech. Again, if you have an issue with that, your fight is with the US Constitution and the Supreme Court.
I have not reviewed every single story out there but while I have seen many stories of Jewish students feeling threatened (for very good reason), I have seen very few stories of Jewish students being targeted by "true threats". The few stories I have seen (like the previously mentioned one at Cornell) have resulted in swift action by universities. That is not to minimize the terror and anxiety felt by Jewish students and caused by some of these protestors, it is merely a recognition of what is and isn't allowed by the First Amendment.
You'll like these
https://davidlat.substack.com/p/against-free-speech-hypocrisy
https://greglukianoff.substack.com/p/is-the-sudden-discovery-by-campus
Alan Dershowitz: is advocating genocide of Jews protected speech?
https://www.youtube.com/live/d60NwKbqIB8?si=jCyqz6__OGlkcRKP
"You'll like these random articles that don't address any of your points but have clouded my atrophied brain with nonsense."
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 08, 2023, 04:31:40 PM
If a jewish person is anti-zionist, are they anti-semitic?
Yes, they can be. You mean like the Neturei Karta, who have aligned often with antisemites and Islamic extremists?
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 06:35:50 AM
Yes, they can be. You mean like the Neturei Karta, who have aligned often with antisemites and Islamic extremists?
Sure they CAN be. I think jesmu was asking if they are automatically antisemitic if they are anti-Zionist.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 09, 2023, 06:42:51 AM
Sure they CAN be. I think jesmu was asking if they are automatically antisemitic if they are anti-Zionist.
You're fooling yourself if you think antizionism isnt antisemtic.
Good opinion piece here that says it better than I do:
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-770876 (https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-770876)
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 07:18:05 AM
You're fooling yourself if you think antizionism isnt antisemtic.
Good opinion piece here that says it better than I do:
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-770876 (https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-770876)
Eh. Not sure I agree completely with that. If that article is going to rely on self-determination as a reasoning, there have been plenty of instances when the State of Israel has ignored that concept when it was politically convenient for them to do so.
Anyway Israel now certainly has a right to exist. No doubt about that.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 09, 2023, 07:27:55 AM
Eh. Not sure I agree completely with that. If that article is going to rely on self-determination as a reasoning, there have been plenty of instances when the State of Israel has ignored that concept when it was politically convenient for them to do so.
Anyway Israel now certainly has a right to exist. No doubt about that.
Not according to some Jews, which was jesmu's question. There's a difference between not agreeing with Israel's policies, or being meh about Israel and being antizionist. There's inherent antisemitism when using antizionism language, in my opinion.
Grok is woke. I repeat. Grok is woke
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 07:36:04 AM
Not according to some Jews, which was jesmu's question. There's a difference between not agreeing with Israel's policies, or being meh about Israel and being antizionist. There's inherent antisemitism when using antizionism language, in my opinion.
Is there a difference between disagreeing that Jews are inherently entitled to a sovereign ethno-state and wanting Jews wiped out of existence?
(To be clear, Israel today as an established, sovereign nation has a right to exist. But Israel and Zionism are not synonyms. The latter predates the former by decades).
Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2023, 08:11:41 AM
Is there a difference between disagreeing that Jews are inherently entitled to a sovereign ethno-state and wanting Jews wiped out of existence?
(To be clear, Israel today as an established, sovereign nation has a right to exist. But Israel and Zionism are not synonyms. The latter predates the former by decades).
Unfortunately, in Middle East politics, there is not much of a distinction. And to be clear, a think Palestinians have a right to part of the land as well. I am hopefully both sides are willing to concede things in order to get a two state solution.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
Unfortunately, in Middle East politics, there is not much of a distinction. And to be clear, a think Palestinians have a right to part of the land as well. I am hopefully both sides are willing to concede things in order to get a two state solution.
Eh ... I'm not sure this is true. I don't think the average Saudi or Lebanese or Egyptian or Jordanian politician (or citizen) wants to go into New York or London or Paris and murder all the Jews. I think they'd very much be happy if Israel went away as a nation, and I don't doubt they're antisemtic, but it's a big leap to suggest there's not a distinction between that and wiping out every Jew on the planet.
Well I don't think if you are antisemitic that means that necessarily means you want to "wipe out every Jew on the planet."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 09, 2023, 09:42:21 AM
Well I don't think if you are antisemitic that means that necessarily means you want to "wipe out every Jew on the planet."
Agree
Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2023, 09:38:33 AM
Eh ... I'm not sure this is true. I don't think the average Saudi or Lebanese or Egyptian or Jordanian politician (or citizen) wants to go into New York or London or Paris and murder all the Jews. I think they'd very much be happy if Israel went away as a nation, and I don't doubt they're antisemtic, but it's a big leap to suggest there's not a distinction between that and wiping out every Jew on the planet.
They would rather have them out of the Middle East than have Israel as a sovereign nation.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 09, 2023, 09:42:21 AM
Well I don't think if you are antisemitic that means that necessarily means you want to "wipe out every Jew on the planet."
Agree. That's part of the point I'm trying to make.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2023, 09:38:33 AM
Eh ... I'm not sure this is true. I don't think the average Saudi or Lebanese or Egyptian or Jordanian politician (or citizen) wants to go into New York or London or Paris and murder all the Jews. I think they'd very much be happy if Israel went away as a nation, and I don't doubt they're antisemtic, but it's a big leap to suggest there's not a distinction between that and wiping out every Jew on the planet.
So good old fashioned antisemitism is OKas lo g asthey are not trying to go outside the Middle East and kill people?
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
So good old fashioned antisemitism is OKas lo g asthey are not trying to go outside the Middle East and kill people?
.
I'd expect this nonsense from Heisey or 4ever.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2023, 10:12:05 AM
.
I'd expect this nonsense from Heisey or 4ever.
Well you did ask if there is a difference, so that is minimizing.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 10:22:47 AM
Well you did ask if there is a difference, so that is minimizing.
It isn't, and you know I neither wrote or intended anything of the sort.
But I'm sure you think you scored some important internet argument points, so congrats. Slap yourself five.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2023, 10:28:27 AM
It isn't, and you know I neither wrote or intended anything of the sort.
But I'm sure you think you scored some important internet argument points, so congrats. Slap yourself five.
Well, you did write this:
Is there a difference between disagreeing that Jews are inherently entitled to a sovereign ethno-state and wanting Jews wiped out of existence?
I don't know you from Adam, so I read that your intent was to say that antisemitism is OK (which antizionism is inherently antisemitic), just dont wipe out the whole race.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 09, 2023, 07:27:55 AM
Eh. Not sure I agree completely with that. If that article is going to rely on self-determination as a reasoning, there have been plenty of instances when the State of Israel has ignored that concept when it was politically convenient for them to do so.
Anyway Israel now certainly has a right to exist. No doubt about that.
Well the Stockholm Declaration defined a type of antisemitism as:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,. So yes, antizionism is antisemitism
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 10:31:06 AM
Well, you did write this:
Is there a difference between disagreeing that Jews are inherently entitled to a sovereign ethno-state and wanting Jews wiped out of existence?
I don't know you from Adam, so I read that your intent was to say that antisemitism is OK (which antizionism is inherently antisemitic), just dont wipe out the whole race.
Antizionism is not inherently antisemtic just because you say and an opinion piece you found say so. I can link opinion pieces agreeing with that, if that's all it takes.
Are the Navajo and Maori entitled to sovereign ethno-states of their own? How about the Kurds? Roma? Which groups are and aren't inherently entitled?
And if you think I'd come here and say antisemitism is OK, you're a moron. But I don't think you're a moron. I think you're just being insincere to win an internet argument. Way to go, champ.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 10:41:32 AM
Well the Stockholm Declaration defined a type of antisemitism as:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,. So yes, antizionism is antisemitism
I disagree. Any claim that rests on "self-determination" logically falls apart pretty quickly based on Israel's own actions.
Not to mention there are "nations" all over the world that don't have a right to such self-determination. Denying them a state doesn't mean someone is against their ethnicity.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2023, 10:44:44 AM
Antizionism is not inherently antisemtic just because you say and an opinion piece you found say so. I can link opinion pieces agreeing with that, if that's all it takes.
Are the Navajo and Maori entitled to sovereign ethno-states of their own? How about the Kurds? Roma? Which groups are and aren't inherently entitled?
And if you think I'd come here and say antisemitism is OK, you're a moron. But I don't think you're a moron. I think you're just being insincere to win an internet argument. Way to go, champ.
It actually is and is defined by certain Declarations as such by people a lot smarter than you and me. you either seem to believe antizionism is OK,or just like to argue. You probalbly need to get a hobby..
As far as other ethnic groups. yes they are entitled to that.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 10:41:32 AM
Well the Stockholm Declaration defined a type of antisemitism as:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,. So yes, antizionism is antisemitism
So Jewish people, who believe their religious texts indicate that Jews should not return en masse to Israel, until the coming of the Messiah (a believe held by almost all Orthodox Jews prior to 1947, and one held by various orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews today), are anti-semitic?
Although some groups say so, it is a bit inane (in my opinion), they have no hatred, or bias against Jews, rather, they believe, on Jewish religious grounds, that they are defying God, and want them all to essentially quit living in Sin.
Those are differences of opinion within a religion on an extremely foundational religious element, and one that was debated for decades prior to 1947. Calling them, a priori, anti-semitic is simply a way to silence their religious beliefs.
That isn't to say that people who hold those beliefs, can't be anti-semitic, but those beliefs on their own do not make them anti-semitic.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-05/ty-article/.premium/israeli-far-right-plans-to-march-on-temple-mount-demand-end-of-waqf-control-of-compound (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-05/ty-article/.premium/israeli-far-right-plans-to-march-on-temple-mount-demand-end-of-waqf-control-of-compound)
The Kahanist organizations behind this have as some of their official symbolism, images of bombs raining down on Muslim holy sites and shrines.
Actions like this are just going to cause more violence, and the groups driving it know this and want more violence. Such actions risk expanding the scope of the war.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ultranationalist-jerusalem-march-tomorrow-to-urge-expelling-muslim-waqf-from-temple-mount/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ultranationalist-jerusalem-march-tomorrow-to-urge-expelling-muslim-waqf-from-temple-mount/)
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 10:58:59 AM
It actually is and is defined by certain Declarations as such by people a lot smarter than you and me. you either seem to believe antizionism is OK,or just like to argue. You probalbly need to get a hobby..
Lol. That's rich given your comments here.
And your appeal to authority is no more persuasive than your opinion piece.
And yes, it's fine to say that no ethnic group has an inherent right to a sovereign nation to call their own. It doesn't mean you hate that group.
QuoteAs far as other ethnic groups. yes they are entitled to that.
Hooray for war and displacement.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 09, 2023, 09:58:06 AM
So good old fashioned antisemitism is OKas lo g asthey are not trying to go outside the Middle East and kill people?
There is a lot of this "Just don't kill them all, and we cool you're not an antisemitic" around here.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 08, 2023, 03:32:42 PM
Consider that the state of Israel has been ghettoizing Palestinians for almost twenty years. They're literally behaving like the Nazi's did towards the Jewish population during WW2.
If Hamas was out to only kill Jewish people, don't you think they'd try... ya know, killing a few somewhere besides Israel? Kinda strange that they don't, isn't it?
They're anti-Israel, not anti-Jewish. And yes, you can separate the two if you possess working brain cells.
And for the record, I've been to the holocaust museum as well as Dachau. The crimes of 80 years ago don't give the state of Israel carte blanche to kill civilians as they see fit.
Biden just bypassed Congress to sell tank shells to Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/09/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20231209&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=152188&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-state-department-bypasses-congress-to-approve-israels-order-for-tank-ammunition
The State Department invoked an emergency provision in the Arms Export Control Act, the State Department official as well as a congressional official told The New York Times. The arms shipment has been put on an expedited track, and Congress has no power to stop it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-09/wharton-rebels-ramp-up-pressure-to-force-penn-president-to-quit
Pressure is growing on University of Pennsylvania President Liz Magill to quit as alumni, donors and lawmakers demand a change in leadership over how she's handled antisemitism on campus, part of a broader crisis that's engulfed three of the world's most elite universities.
The Penn board plans to meet Sunday at 5pm with Magill's future on the line after days of lobbying for and against her, said two people with knowledge of the matter.
The board is currently divided and may not reach a decision this weekend, they said, asking not to be identified as the discussions are private.
Quote from: forgetful on December 09, 2023, 11:06:44 AM
So Jewish people, who believe their religious texts indicate that Jews should not return en masse to Israel, until the coming of the Messiah (a believe held by almost all Orthodox Jews prior to 1947, and one held by various orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews today), are anti-semitic?
Although some groups say so, it is a bit inane (in my opinion), they have no hatred, or bias against Jews, rather, they believe, on Jewish religious grounds, that they are defying God, and want them all to essentially quit living in Sin.
Its nuance, but I think they are actually anti-semitic, but in the sense that they rebuke and "disown" all Jews who don't follow their way of thinking, if you're not with us we hate you like you're against us. Same way lunatics like Westboro hate and despise all Christians who are not as extreme and principled as them. Many of the ultra Jihadist Muslims would easily condemn and kill any "Westernized" Muslims who lived in a way they don't align with.
I was having a conversation with my cousin who is a reform Jew, worked for a Jewish non profit for awhile post college, and is fairly involved with Jewish social circles in Chicago. I asked if she knew any Jews that were against Israel, in theory or practice. I don't mean Jews who want a ceasefire or freedom for Palestine/sympathy for Palestinian cause, I mean full anti-Zionism or the idea of the state of Israel, not criticism or opposition to current government policies. She only knew one, and it was the cousin of one of her friends, who was largely estranged from their family.
The reason I asked was because the only people Ive seen with that mindset are completely secular Jews who, beyond religion, have no ties, connection, or meaningful cultural interest in their Jewish background. They just use it as a cudgel to be like "see, I'm a Jew and I also think Israel is a colonizing, disgusting, apartheid state, so it can't be anti-semitic". Despite their genetics, they have zero shared interest or commonality to the cultural or historical basis or desire for the state of Israel.
Just got the email, former president Magill. Remains a tenured professor in the law school. Disappointed and expected.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 09, 2023, 02:04:57 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-09/wharton-rebels-ramp-up-pressure-to-force-penn-president-to-quit
Pressure is growing on University of Pennsylvania President Liz Magill to quit as alumni, donors and lawmakers demand a change in leadership over how she's handled antisemitism on campus, part of a broader crisis that's engulfed three of the world's most elite universities.
The Penn board plans to meet Sunday at 5pm with Magill's future on the line after days of lobbying for and against her, said two people with knowledge of the matter.
The board is currently divided and may not reach a decision this weekend, they said, asking not to be identified as the discussions are private.
Headline crossing now
*PRESIDENT LIZ MAGILL RESIGNED AS PRESIDENT: PENN BOARDI don't think it ends here, and it might be just the beginning.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-09/governor-hochul-orders-ny-colleges-to-combat-antisemitism
New York Governor Kathy Hochul called on the state's colleges to take action against all antisemitism on campus after the presidents of Harvard University and two other elite US schools faced widespread criticism for failing to broadly condemn calls for the genocide of Jewish people.
Failure to address antisemitism "would constitute a violation of New York State Human Rights Law as well as Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964," Hochul said in a letter to New York state college presidents. She said schools that don't comply could be "deemed ineligible" to receive state and federal money."The moral lapses that were evidenced by the disgraceful answers to questions posed during this week's congressional hearing cannot and will not be tolerated here in the state of New York," Hochul said.
Grok weighs in on Zionism and Judaism:
https://x.com/benfrubinstein/status/1733602333257277611?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
He should stick to catching passes
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 09, 2023, 04:49:20 PM
He should stick to catching passes
I originally read it as Gronk as well...and already had started to get popcorn ready.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 09, 2023, 03:31:07 PM
Its nuance, but I think they are actually anti-semitic, but in the sense that they rebuke and "disown" all Jews who don't follow their way of thinking, if you're not with us we hate you like you're against us. Same way lunatics like Westboro hate and despise all Christians who are not as extreme and principled as them. Many of the ultra Jihadist Muslims would easily condemn and kill any "Westernized" Muslims who lived in a way they don't align with.
I was having a conversation with my cousin who is a reform Jew, worked for a Jewish non profit for awhile post college, and is fairly involved with Jewish social circles in Chicago. I asked if she knew any Jews that were against Israel, in theory or practice. I don't mean Jews who want a ceasefire or freedom for Palestine/sympathy for Palestinian cause, I mean full anti-Zionism or the idea of the state of Israel, not criticism or opposition to current government policies. She only knew one, and it was the cousin of one of her friends, who was largely estranged from their family.
The reason I asked was because the only people Ive seen with that mindset are completely secular Jews who, beyond religion, have no ties, connection, or meaningful cultural interest in their Jewish background. They just use it as a cudgel to be like "see, I'm a Jew and I also think Israel is a colonizing, disgusting, apartheid state, so it can't be anti-semitic". Despite their genetics, they have zero shared interest or commonality to the cultural or historical basis or desire for the state of Israel.
I don't disagree with your logic. It is also nuance, but I would still disagree with an assertion that being anti-Zionist automatically equates to being anti-Semitic. The two overlap considerably, but there are certainly parts of the anti-Zionist group, including Jewish populations, that have no issue/bias with/against Jewish people at all. The reason I'm careful about these definitions, is I fear that calling everything "anti-semitic" actually weakens the value of the word, which can lead to a permission structure for more outright anti-semitic activity.
I had drafted a longer response with some examples, but figured You, I, and a handful of others might appreciate the discussion, whereas others would just go off on the topic and it would spiral into a meaningless pile of words. Since I truly think we are closer to agreement than disagreement, I decided not to post it.
https://x.com/RepStefanik/status/1733608373990343015?s=20
Rep. Elise Stefanik
@RepStefanik
One down.
Two to go.
This is only the very beginning of addressing the pervasive rot of antisemitism that has destroyed the most "prestigious" higher education institutions in America.
This forced resignation of the President of @Penn is the bare minimum of what is required.
These universities can anticipate a robust and comprehensive Congressional investigation of all facets of their institutions negligent perpetration of antisemitism including administrative, faculty, and overall leadership and governance.
@Harvard and @MIT, do the right thing. The world is watching.
In the case of @Harvard, President Gay was asked by me 17x whether calling for the genocide of Jews violates Harvard's code of conduct.
She spoke her truth 17x. And the world heard.
In the case of @MIT, Dr. Kornbluth answered the question. "If targeted at individuals" ie dehumanizing the Jewish people in her answer.
Bravo! MIT, Harvard, and Penn will not be fine, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 09, 2023, 08:25:44 PM
Bravo! MIT, Harvard, and Penn will not be fine, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
Yes, they will. The surest thing they will be is, you think they won't be, hey? #alwayswrong
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 09, 2023, 03:43:00 PM
Grok weighs in on Zionism and Judaism:
https://x.com/benfrubinstein/status/1733602333257277611?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Gotta admit this is a far funnier outcome than I was ever expecting
https://x.com/edzitron/status/1733574728789746081?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
https://x.com/edzitron/status/1733341212831269348?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Heisy don't read this
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 09, 2023, 10:41:00 PM
Gotta admit this is a far funnier outcome than I was ever expecting
https://x.com/edzitron/status/1733574728789746081?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
https://x.com/edzitron/status/1733341212831269348?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Heisy don't read this
Why not?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 09, 2023, 10:41:00 PM
Gotta admit this is a far funnier outcome than I was ever expecting
https://x.com/edzitron/status/1733574728789746081?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
https://x.com/edzitron/status/1733341212831269348?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Heisy don't read this
People's infatuation with the Musk family partial ownership of an emerald mine is beyond baffling to me. There are more and more reasons everyday to shake your head at his stupidity and attempted galaxy brain than trying to create a scenario in which he didn't actual succeed financially, he must have come from IMMENSE high 9 figure wealth already. I know a guy who inherited controlling stakes in 2 large emerald mines in Colombia and he easily makes less money annually than one of the better paid engineers at Tesla or SpaceX, much less management. A good rule of thumb in high value colored gemstones is take 5-7% of the retail price and thats the initial transaction price from the mine to the first buyer.
Its probably the same sort of myopic people who are hoping that Greg Joseph gets his leg broken this weekend because of his Israel centric cleats and saying he supports genocide...except that its benefiting the country's largest food bank which is not government affiliated. But he's a white South African who supports Israel so... tHe JoKes WrItE tHeMsElVeS. Cause you know that means he's pro apartheid despite being born there after it was over and moving to the US as a young child.
What a blessed time for social media! And thanks in advance for 15 prompts that NASP is gonna feed into Grok now.
Quote from: forgetful on December 09, 2023, 06:11:40 PM
I had drafted a longer response with some examples, but figured You, I, and a handful of others might appreciate the discussion, whereas others would just go off on the topic and it would spiral into a meaningless pile of words. Since I truly think we are closer to agreement than disagreement, I decided not to post it.
We're likely pretty close, don't disagree. Still would be interested to read it, feel free to shoot me a PM. I get annoyed by so much of the dumb crap I stumble across on a daily basis as it pertains to this conflict (see the post above) that I appreciate the challenging nuanced dialogue as it helps reground everything and make me critically think.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 09, 2023, 03:31:07 PM
Its nuance, but I think they are actually anti-semitic, but in the sense that they rebuke and "disown" all Jews who don't follow their way of thinking, if you're not with us we hate you like you're against us. Same way lunatics like Westboro hate and despise all Christians who are not as extreme and principled as them. Many of the ultra Jihadist Muslims would easily condemn and kill any "Westernized" Muslims who lived in a way they don't align with.
I was having a conversation with my cousin who is a reform Jew, worked for a Jewish non profit for awhile post college, and is fairly involved with Jewish social circles in Chicago. I asked if she knew any Jews that were against Israel, in theory or practice. I don't mean Jews who want a ceasefire or freedom for Palestine/sympathy for Palestinian cause, I mean full anti-Zionism or the idea of the state of Israel, not criticism or opposition to current government policies. She only knew one, and it was the cousin of one of her friends, who was largely estranged from their family.
The reason I asked was because the only people Ive seen with that mindset are completely secular Jews who, beyond religion, have no ties, connection, or meaningful cultural interest in their Jewish background. They just use it as a cudgel to be like "see, I'm a Jew and I also think Israel is a colonizing, disgusting, apartheid state, so it can't be anti-semitic". Despite their genetics, they have zero shared interest or commonality to the cultural or historical basis or desire for the state of Israel.
Hmmm.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 09, 2023, 08:58:36 PM
Yes, they will. The surest thing they will be is, you think they won't be, hey? #alwayswrong
Depends on what you mean by "fine." I get your definition ... as long as the campuses of Harvard, MIT, and Penn are not smoking holes in the ground, you'll say they are "fine."
Ackman's description below is more on the mark.
(and I'll throw in Larry Summers is saying that elite universities are facing their biggest crisis since the Vietnam war, and maybe their biggest crisis in anyone's lifetime.)
------
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1733629882117091830?s=20
Non-profit boards are often slow to act because they don't have feedback from a massive stock drop and angry shareholders screaming at the directors. That said, the alumni are certainly screaming and they are shorting their donations.
The proverbial stock prices of Harvard and MIT have dropped more than 50% since the October 6th close, while @Penn's has bounced 20% off the lows based on today's news, but is still down 40%.
Penn's recovery will depend on whether and how its board is refreshed, who they choose as their next president, and whether they make necessary fundamental changes to the institution.
The same holds true for the others.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 09, 2023, 11:19:01 PM
People's infatuation with the Musk family partial ownership of an emerald mine is beyond baffling to me. There are more and more reasons everyday to shake your head at his stupidity and attempted galaxy brain than trying to create a scenario in which he didn't actual succeed financially, he must have come from IMMENSE high 9 figure wealth already. I know a guy who inherited controlling stakes in 2 large emerald mines in Colombia and he easily makes less money annually than one of the better paid engineers at Tesla or SpaceX, much less management. A good rule of thumb in high value colored gemstones is take 5-7% of the retail price and thats the initial transaction price from the mine to the first buyer.
Its probably the same sort of myopic people who are hoping that Greg Joseph gets his leg broken this weekend because of his Israel centric cleats and saying he supports genocide...except that its benefiting the country's largest food bank which is not government affiliated. But he's a white South African who supports Israel so... tHe JoKes WrItE tHeMsElVeS. Cause you know that means he's pro apartheid despite being born there after it was over and moving to the US as a young child.
What a blessed time for social media! And thanks in advance for 15 prompts that NASP is gonna feed into Grok now.
It's funny output of his AI system. I wouldn't overthink it too much and wouldn't write paragraphs being upset about it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 12:49:12 AM
Depends on what you mean by "fine." I get your definition ... as long as the campuses of Harvard, MIT, and Penn are not smoking holes in the ground, you'll say they are "fine."
Ackman's description below is more on the mark.
(and I'll throw in Larry Summers is saying that elite universities are facing their biggest crisis since the Vietnam war, and maybe their biggest crisis in anyone's lifetime.)
------
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1733629882117091830?s=20
Non-profit boards are often slow to act because they don't have feedback from a massive stock drop and angry shareholders screaming at the directors. That said, the alumni are certainly screaming and they are shorting their donations.
The proverbial stock prices of Harvard and MIT have dropped more than 50% since the October 6th close, while @Penn's has bounced 20% off the lows based on today's news, but is still down 40%.
Penn's recovery will depend on whether and how its board is refreshed, who they choose as their next president, and whether they make necessary fundamental changes to the institution.
The same holds true for the others.
"Proverbial stock prices?" LOL. What a f*cking stupid analogy.
They will be fine in that they will have the same student demand, have the same basis number of students and the same basic number of employees that they usually have. And they will have dimwits like yourself thinking they are somehow representative of American higher education overall.
They will all be just fine. It's but a bump in their road.
Nope, cultural change in da works, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 10, 2023, 06:11:40 AM
Nope, cultural change in da works, hey?
I know why you think so, but you'd be wrong again.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 02:24:49 AM
It's funny output of his AI system. I wouldn't overthink it too much and wouldn't write paragraphs being upset about it.
The whole AI is amusing, don't disagree there. I was just meaning the sentiment/theory that people are still hung up on to the extent that it's still something that's thought about. I'm not losing sleep over it, I'm not gonna shotgun another 5000 words and link 25 articles about it. It's just stupid and emblematic of our cultural all or nothing fixations with public figures.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 10, 2023, 06:11:40 AM
Nope, cultural change in da works, hey?
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-day-the-empress-clothes-fell-ffa
It may be too much to expect that the Congressional hearings this week, starring the three presidents of Harvard, MIT, and Penn, will wake people up to the toxic collapse of America's once-great Ivy League. But I can hope, can't I? In the immortal words of Hitch (peace be upon him), as you listen to these people, "You see how far the termites have spread, and how long and well they have dined."
Maureen Dowd
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/09/opinion/antisemitism-university-presidents.html
"The culture on campuses is a culture of oppressors and oppressed. Israel is now Goliath and no longer David — though God knows it has mortal enemies capable of the most astonishing savagery. The Jews were long ago stricken from the roles of the oppressed because they were seen as white and privileged. We are a culture which loves victims and worships victimization and gives great moral authority to victims, but we don't treat all victims equally."
----
Dowd nails it. The entire woke premise is built on the opposer/oppressed matrix. This is falling apart.
Jews thought they were part of the oppressed class because, you know, they have been oppressed and progromed for thousands of years. But the cold reality they learned in the last two months is they are really at the bottom of the oppressor/oppressed matrix. They are privileged white people. So, they can only be oppressors, never oppressed, and are being treated as such, with hate and disdain, as many posters here are doing (hint, they're the ones that have to say they think Israel has to exist and defend itself because it is not clear from their posts).
College donors, trustees, and the American public are now waking up to the cold reality that no acts of violence or barbarism are too much when it is directed against white privileged oppressors. That is them, so they are finally demanding this end. And it will.
So, yes, cultural change is in the works. This worries Fluffer, which is why he only posts ad hominem/swearing attacks. He sees his progressive worldview crumbling and has become a version of 82 with Jewish Space Lasters.
It doesn't worry me in the least. You and 4ever are simply too online fighting culture wars and have a complete lack of sense of reality.
I mean, saying "Dowd nails it" should probably provide a lesson for you in an ironic kind of way. But it won't because your bubble has created your reality.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 09:45:24 AM
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-day-the-empress-clothes-fell-ffa
It may be too much to expect that the Congressional hearings this week, starring the three presidents of Harvard, MIT, and Penn, will wake people up to the toxic collapse of America's once-great Ivy League. But I can hope, can't I? In the immortal words of Hitch (peace be upon him), as you listen to these people, "You see how far the termites have spread, and how long and well they have dined."
Maureen Dowd
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/09/opinion/antisemitism-university-presidents.html
"The culture on campuses is a culture of oppressors and oppressed. Israel is now Goliath and no longer David — though God knows it has mortal enemies capable of the most astonishing savagery. The Jews were long ago stricken from the roles of the oppressed because they were seen as white and privileged. We are a culture which loves victims and worships victimization and gives great moral authority to victims, but we don't treat all victims equally."
----
Dowd nails it. The entire woke premise is built on the opposer/oppressed matrix. This is falling apart.
Jews thought they were part of the oppressed class because, you know, they have been oppressed and progromed for thousands of years. But the cold reality they learned in the last two months is they are really at the bottom of the oppressor/oppressed matrix. They are privileged white people. So, they can only be oppressors, never oppressed, and are being treated as such, with hate and disdain, as many posters here are doing (hint, they're the ones that have to say they think Israel has to exist and defend itself because it is not clear from their posts).
College donors, trustees, and the American public are now waking up to the cold reality that no acts of violence or barbarism are too much when it is directed against white privileged oppressors. That is them, so they are finally demanding this end. And it will.
So, yes, cultural change is in the works. This worries Fluffer, which is why he only posts ad hominem/swearing attacks. He sees his progressive worldview crumbling and has become a version of 82 with Jewish Space Lasters.
lol
@davidsirota
Things that are bad (in no particular order):
- Netanyahu
- Hamas
- Killing of civilians
- Rhetoric demanding the genocide of any people
- Billionaires controlling the discourse
Douchey, isn't it time for you to post more Fox News links about "terrorist attacks" on the U.S.-Canadian border?
Quote from: MU82 on December 10, 2023, 10:57:56 AM
Douchey, isn't it time for you to post more Fox News links about "terrorist attacks" on the U.S.-Canadian border?
I will the next time it happens
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:07:51 AM
I will the next time it happens
The next time terrorists actually attack America (as in what happened at the Capitol on 1/6/21), or the next time a Fox News pretend terrorist attack happens (as in what you were conned into posting last month)?
FIFY
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 10, 2023, 10:42:58 AM
@davidsirota
Things that are bad (in no particular order):
- Netanyahu The Jewish leader in Israel
- Hamas Like five people in Gaza
- Killing of civilians What the Jews are doing (not Hamas)
- Rhetoric demanding the genocide of any people Or, "Israel has the right to defend itself."
- Billionaires controlling the discourse Rich White Jews Expressing an Opinion (they are supposed to shut up and pay, right)
Quote from: MU82 on December 10, 2023, 11:14:26 AM
The next time terrorists actually attack America (as in what happened at the Capitol on 1/6/21), or the next time a Fox News pretend terrorist attack happens (as in what you were conned into posting last month)?
And I will also post when the Jewish Space lasers strike again
Since "Jewish Space Lasers" brought it up ...
Quote from: reinko on November 22, 2023, 05:49:10 PM
So close. Rich drunk guy in a $200,000 car who wanted to see KISS, but ended up at a casino, then speeds through a checkpoint and crashes his car.
Or, it was this
Bentley recalled cars because accelerators were getting stuck two years before Niagara Falls crash that killed Kurt and Monica Villani in their 2022 Flying Spur
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12788475/Bentley-recalled-cars-accelerators-getting-stuck-two-years-Niagara-Falls-crash-killed-Kurt-Monica-Villani-2022-Flying-Spur.html
Bentley recalled some car models in 2021 because accelerators were becoming stuck, creating huge safety fears, two years before a Niagara Falls couple died in a fiery crash in their vehicle.
The car maker issued the recall in the summer of 2021 for Continental GT and Flying Spur models built between 2018 and 2021.
The recall notice cited a manufacturing flaw that caused accelerators to get stuck while engaged.
----
Notice how no one called Reinko on this. Maybe it is because no level of hatred and mocking of an oppressor is too much. All perfectly acceptable when one is at the bottom of the oppressed/oppressor matrix.
So, go ahead and say he was too rich (driving a $200k car), drunk, wasting money, and driving irresponsibly. It doesn't matter if none of it is true; he is an oppressor, so it's all good. He probably got his money to buy this car from stealing from the poor. Isn't that the way everyone becomes rich?
Jews have learned this the hard way in the last two months.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:35:25 AM
Since "Jewish Space Lasers" brought it up ...
Or, it was this
Bentley recalled cars because accelerators were getting stuck two years before Niagara Falls crash that killed Kurt and Monica Villani in their 2022 Flying Spur
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12788475/Bentley-recalled-cars-accelerators-getting-stuck-two-years-Niagara-Falls-crash-killed-Kurt-Monica-Villani-2022-Flying-Spur.html
Bentley recalled some car models in 2021 because accelerators were becoming stuck, creating huge safety fears, two years before a Niagara Falls couple died in a fiery crash in their vehicle.
The car maker issued the recall in the summer of 2021 for Continental GT and Flying Spur models built between 2018 and 2021.
The recall notice cited a manufacturing flaw that caused accelerators to get stuck while engaged.
----
Notice how no one called Reinko on this. Maybe it is because no level of hatred and mocking of an oppressor is too much. All perfectly acceptable when one is at the bottom of the oppressed/oppressor matrix.
So, go ahead and say he was too rich (driving a $200k car), drunk, wasting money, and driving irresponsibly. It doesn't matter if none of it is true; he is an oppressor, so it's all good. He probably got his money to buy this car from stealing from the poor. Isn't that the way everyone becomes rich?
Jews have learned this the hard way in the last two months.
That's the same level of incorrect as calling it a terrorist attack. Yep you nailed it.
As was da insurrection of Jan. 6, aina?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 10, 2023, 09:49:31 AM
It doesn't worry me in the least. You and 4ever are simply too online fighting culture wars and have a complete lack of sense of reality.
I mean, saying "Dowd nails it" should probably provide a lesson for you in an ironic kind of way. But it won't because your bubble has created your reality.
precisely.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 11:46:42 AM
That's the same level of incorrect as calling it a terrorist attack. Yep you nailed it.
I did not call it a terrorist attack.
Yep, you nailed it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 10, 2023, 09:49:31 AM
It doesn't worry me in the least. You and 4ever are simply too online fighting culture wars and have a complete lack of sense of reality.
I mean, saying "Dowd nails it" should probably provide a lesson for you in an ironic kind of way. But it won't because your bubble has created your reality.
There is no such thing as a cultural war.
What there is is progressive ideology that is both unpopular and morally questionable. You don't want to defend it, so you mumble something about a fictitious culture war.
What it is is normal people telling you no.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:52:03 AM
There is no such thing as a cultural war.
What there is is progressive ideology that is both unpopular and morally questionable. You don't want to defend it, so you mumble something about a fictitious culture war.
What it is is normal people telling you no.
Of course there is, you try to fight it here every single day.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:52:03 AM
There is no such thing as a cultural war.
What there is is progressive ideology that is both unpopular and morally questionable. You don't want to defend it, so you mumble something about a fictitious culture war.
What it is is normal people telling you no.
Yeah you are fighting online culture wars. You are so involved in the nonsense you cut and paste here every day that reality is passing you by.
Anyway, who is telling me no? WTF does that even mean?
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1733856772144742903?s=20
@Harvard board meeting today...
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 12:14:25 PM
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1733856772144742903?s=20
@Harvard board meeting today...
Imagine hanging on every tweet by Bick Ackman...what a life.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 10, 2023, 12:16:26 PM
Imagine hanging on every tweet by Bick Ackman...what a life.
It's what oppressors do.
Sounds like they have a time consuming issue they are dealing with. I wonder what it could be???
https://x.com/billackman/status/1733873396448989695?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng
The @Harvard board meeting continues into tomorrow.
Adios Gay, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 11:46:42 AM
That's the same level of incorrect as calling it a terrorist attack. Yep you nailed it.
Jesus, what an idiot. An article was posted showing that accelerators on those cars had a problem with getting stuck and Douchey translates that into "oppressor" nonsense and claims that the owners were too rich? Absolutely unhinged.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 10, 2023, 12:28:45 PM
Jesus, what an idiot. An article was posted showing that accelerators on those cars had a problem with getting stuck and Douchey translates that into "oppressor" nonsense and claims that the owners were too rich? Absolutely unhinged.
Just to be clear, are you okay with Reinko calling the driver drunk and irresponsible?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 10, 2023, 12:14:10 PM
Yeah you are fighting online culture wars. You are so involved in the nonsense you cut and paste here every day that reality is passing you by.
Anyway, who is telling me no? WTF does that even mean?
Of course it's a culture war. Just like Disney, the NFL, beer cans, etc., and it's a distraction from real issues they can't win on.
They thought the administration would be slow to respond and not fully support Israel. When they were wrong, they pivoted to campuses as the gotcha opportunity from this tragedy.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 10, 2023, 12:34:19 PM
Of course it's a culture war. Just like Disney, the NFL, beer cans, etc., and it's a distraction from real issues they can't win on.
They thought the administration would be slow to respond and not fully support Israel. When they were wrong, they pivoted to campuses as the gotcha opportunity from this tragedy.
Who is winning this perceived culture war?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:20:12 AM
And I will also post when the Jewish Space lasers strike again
Well, we sure know you won't post to condemn the non-Western Progressive proud antisemitic white supremacist who put Jewish Space Lasers in the public realm.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 10, 2023, 12:34:19 PM
They thought the administration would be slow to respond and not fully support Israel. When they were wrong, they pivoted to campuses as the gotcha opportunity from this tragedy.
Yep.
AnD dOn'T fOrGeT aBoUt HuNtEr!
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:35:25 AM
Since "Jewish Space Lasers" brought it up ...
Or, it was this
Bentley recalled cars because accelerators were getting stuck two years before Niagara Falls crash that killed Kurt and Monica Villani in their 2022 Flying Spur
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12788475/Bentley-recalled-cars-accelerators-getting-stuck-two-years-Niagara-Falls-crash-killed-Kurt-Monica-Villani-2022-Flying-Spur.html
Bentley recalled some car models in 2021 because accelerators were becoming stuck, creating huge safety fears, two years before a Niagara Falls couple died in a fiery crash in their vehicle.
The car maker issued the recall in the summer of 2021 for Continental GT and Flying Spur models built between 2018 and 2021.
The recall notice cited a manufacturing flaw that caused accelerators to get stuck while engaged.
----
Notice how no one called Reinko on this. Maybe it is because no level of hatred and mocking of an oppressor is too much. All perfectly acceptable when one is at the bottom of the oppressed/oppressor matrix.
So, go ahead and say he was too rich (driving a $200k car), drunk, wasting money, and driving irresponsibly. It doesn't matter if none of it is true; he is an oppressor, so it's all good. He probably got his money to buy this car from stealing from the poor. Isn't that the way everyone becomes rich?
Jews have learned this the hard way in the last two months.
Man who breathlessly posted about how this was a terror attack is now super concerned about accurate reporting on the incident?
lol.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2023, 01:33:59 PM
Man who breathlessly posted about how this was a terror attack is now super concerned about accurate reporting on the incident?
lol.
But don't forget - Douchey didn't "call" it a terrorist attack. He just hurriedly posted Fox News' fearmongering lies and then never even gave it so much as an "oopsie" mention after the lies were exposed.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:49:16 AM
I did not call it a terrorist attack.
Yep, you nailed it.
Your post explicitly said "This is what we know" and posted a Fox News article saying sources called it a terrorist attack.
Now if you want to debate saying "this is what we know" doesn't mean you were calling it a terrorist attack despite posting a pretty obvious baiting article? I'm sure you would love to oblige.
I certainly didn't see you coming back to update that when this news broke two weeks ago as any person with good faith intentions would have, except when it was useful to you to complain how about others (admittedly incorrect) framed it.
Once again you flood the zone in an attempt to obfuscate s*** that doesn't conform to your desired narrative.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 11:52:03 AM
There is no such thing as a cultural war.
What there is is progressive ideology that is both unpopular and morally questionable. You don't want to defend it, so you mumble something about a fictitious culture war.
What it is is normal people telling you no.
Progressive ideologies for the most part are actually very popular in America. You just don't like those ideologies.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 03:41:02 PM
Progressive ideologies for the most part are actually very popular in America. You just don't like those ideologies.
I hope all lefties run on this
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 03:38:02 PM
Your post explicitly said "This is what we know" and posted a Fox News article saying sources called it a terrorist attack.
Now if you want to debate saying "this is what we know" doesn't mean you were calling it a terrorist attack despite posting a pretty obvious baiting article? I'm sure you would love to oblige.
I certainly didn't see you coming back to update that when this news broke two weeks ago as any person with good faith intentions would have, except when it was useful to you to complain how about others (admittedly incorrect) framed it.
Once again you flood the zone in an attempt to obfuscate s*** that doesn't conform to your desired narrative.
Huh, so Douchey thinks speculation that a single car accident could potentially have been caused by equipment failure or reckless/drunk driving is the same as a national network breathlessly proclaiming it a terror attack on the United States, complete with whole cloth alternative facts that the car was filled with explosives, that there was a second car, and that an Iranian passport was found on the scene? Surprising.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 03:38:02 PM
Your post explicitly said "This is what we know" and posted a Fox News article saying sources called it a terrorist attack.
Now if you want to debate saying "this is what we know" doesn't mean you were calling it a terrorist attack despite posting a pretty obvious baiting article? I'm sure you would love to oblige.
I certainly didn't see you coming back to update that when this news broke two weeks ago as any person with good faith intentions would have, except when it was useful to you to complain how about others (admittedly incorrect) framed it.
Once again you flood the zone in an attempt to obfuscate s*** that doesn't conform to your desired narrative.
Here is what I wrote.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on November 22, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
This is what we know as I write this ...
Three Hours Ago
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2023/11/22/bulletin-warns-of-increasing-terrorist-threat-to-new-york-cbs-news-n2631520
Authorities in the Empire State are on high alert ahead of Thanksgiving as, according to Catherine Herridge, CBS News obtained an intelligence bulletin warning of "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" amid Iran-backed terrorists' war against Israel launched with an October 7 Hamas slaughter of more than 1,200 individuals in the Jewish state.
@CBS_Herridge
https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1727131445528064453
@CBSNews obtained intel alert which points to "an increasing terrorist threat to New York State" tied to Israel-Hamas war" + the "increase in civilian casualties raises the likelihood that violent extremist threat actors will seek to conduct attacks..."
One Hour Ago
Rainbow Bridge between US, Canada closed following vehicle explosion: FBI
The Rainbow Bridge was shut down to all traffic following the blast.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/rainbow-bridge-us-canada-closed-explosion-sources/story?id=105102476
The Rainbow Bridge connecting the U.S. and Canada at Niagara Falls, New York, has been closed after a vehicle explosion, according to the FBI and local authorities.
There are believed to be fatalities from the incident, multiple officials confirmed to ABC News.
Investigators have found some sort of suitcase or briefcase on-scene, sources told ABC News. They are treating it as a possible explosive device as a precaution and the bomb squad is handling the package.
30 Minutes ago
NY vehicle explosion at Rainbow Bridge border crossing is attempted terror attack: sources
Rainbow Bridge, which connects Niagara Falls, New York to Niagara Falls, Canada, is currently shut down as the investigation unfolds
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ny-vehicle-explosion-reported-rainbow-bridge-niagara-falls-injured
The FBI is investigating a vehicle explosion Wednesday at the Rainbow Bridge border crossing between the U.S. and Canada in what sources tell Fox News was an attempted terrorist attack.
Explosives were in the vehicle at the time and two people who were in the car are dead, the sources told Fox News. A border officer was injured.
The vehicle was driving from the U.S. to Canada and were attempting to drive toward the border officer building, the sources said.
All bridges are closed in the area, and all government buildings are evacuated, according to the sources.
Headline 10 Minutes ago
*AUTHORITIES SEARCHING FOR SECOND VEHICLE IN BRIDGE ATTACK: FOX
Bridge attack lol
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 04:45:48 PM
Here is what I wrote.
Yes, "this is what we know" with the headlines I alluded to. How on earth can you possibly think that helps your case?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 07:41:11 PM
Yes, "this is what we know" with the headlines I alluded to. How on earth can you possibly think that helps your case?
It was the day before Thanksgiving and he was reporting from his iPad.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 12:39:28 PM
Who is winning this perceived culture war?
Maybe the same folks who won The War on Xmas, maybe not.
Ackman's letter detailing why Claudine Gay needs to be immediately fired
Please see my letter today to @Harvard governing boards of directors:
December 10, 2023
Dear Members of the Harvard Governing Boards:
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1733985787455168906?s=20
-----
And this troll ....
To the @MIT governing boards:
Let's make a deal.
If you promptly terminate President Kornbluth, I promise I won't write you a letter.
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1733988382181560698?s=20
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 10, 2023, 07:41:11 PM
Yes, "this is what we know" with the headlines I alluded to. How on earth can you possibly think that helps your case?
I guess my credibility has taken a hit.
Oh, wait, I'm not serious person and never had any credibility.
So, nothing has changed.
From the Washington Post:
The Biden administration has called for Israel to protect civilians, but vetoed a U.N. resolution demanding a cease-fire Friday and will provide more weapons to Israel.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 09:45:24 AM
Dowd nails it.
Thanks for the link, Douchey. I just got the chance to read Maureen Dowd's column, and I agree she nailed it. She was right that growing antisemitism in America is abhorrent, a stain on what is supposed to be good about our country. And she was right about "the presidents of Harvard, M.I.T. and the University of Pennsylvania putting on a pathetic display on Capitol Hill when they were asked if calling for genocide against Jews counted as harassment." She also quoted somebody she respected in suggesting that Netanyahu was a huge part of the reason there's a sh!tshow going on in the Middle East, which was spot on.
Here were some of the other things Dowd nailed in that column:
++ Stefanik represents "the grotesque transformation of the Republican Party to an insane Trump cult."
++ "A man who tried to overthrow the government should not be president again."
++ The U.S. has a responsibility to not "abandon Ukraine to the evil Vladimir Putin."
++ "A young woman — whose life and future ability to bear children are at risk — should not be getting persecuted about an abortion by a shady Texas attorney general."
Bravo, Maureen Dowd, and bravo to you for agreeing with her on so much that I wouldn't have expected!
Bravo for Americans like Mr. Ackman who are not lily livered and are willing to push back when one' moral compass has gone completely wacky. Adios Gay and Kornbluth, hey?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 10, 2023, 09:10:12 PM
I guess my credibility has taken a hit.
Oh, wait, I'm not serious person and never had any credibility.
So, nothing has changed.
Yes, You're the victim
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 07:31:32 AM
Bravo for Americans like Mr. Ackman who are not lily livered and are willing to push back when one' moral compass has gone completely wacky. Adios Gay and Kornbluth, hey?
Guy who fear mongered the initial Covid to crash the volatile market in his favor and make billions is our ideal moral compass. Yep.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 11, 2023, 12:44:25 PM
Guy who fear mongered the initial Covid to crash the volatile market in his favor and make billions is our ideal moral compass. Yep.
Boomers can't easily identify grifters and it's a societal problem. I dunno how to help them.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 11, 2023, 12:58:28 PM
Boomers can't easily identify grifters and it's a societal problem. I dunno how to help them.
He's rich, he must be right about everything.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 11, 2023, 12:44:25 PM
Guy who fear mongered the initial Covid to crash the volatile market in his favor and make billions is our ideal moral compass. Yep.
Sure ur not confusin' Ackman wit Fr. Fauci, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 11, 2023, 01:10:15 PM
He's rich, he must be right about everything.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 01:36:40 PM
Sure ur not confusin' Ackman wit Fr. Fauci, hey?
Yeah! Fauci was inept! What freakin' moron hired Fauci to head up the Covid fight in 2020 and then kept him in that position for months and months and months?
Who can forget these two famous quotes by presidents ...
Harry S Truman: "The buck stops here."
Donald F Trump: "The buck never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever stops here. It's always the other guy's fault! I'm the victim! People are mean to me!"
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 11, 2023, 12:44:25 PM
Guy who fear mongered the initial Covid to crash the volatile market in his favor and make billions is our ideal moral compass. Yep.
Ackman's another, "antisemitism is bad unless it's our guy" (Musk) hypocrite, so perfect for 4elder
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 01:36:40 PM
Sure ur not confusin' Ackman wit Fr. Fauci, hey?
Is what I said wrong? Or are you deflecting.
Harvard is doomed
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/harvard-faculty-rally-around-beleaguered-university-president-claudine-gay-2023-12-11/
Quote from: MU82 on December 11, 2023, 01:43:00 PM
Yeah! Fauci was inept! What freakin' moron hired Fauci to head up the Covid fight in 2020 and then kept him in that position for months and months and months?
Who can forget these two famous quotes by presidents ...
Harry S Truman: "The buck stops here."
Donald F Trump: "The buck never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever stops here. It's always the other guy's fault! I'm the victim! People are mean to me!"
No argument here. Trump's biggest mishandling of the entire covid fiasco was deferring to Fauci and Birks and giving them TV time each night to scare the snot out of everyone. Shoulda chitcanned those 2 early on and replaced them with Atlas. BTW, the BOTUS' covid advisor now says its possible that covid may have originated from a leak in a Wuhan lab. Shockin', hey?
#fearandcontrol
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 07:31:32 AM
Bravo for Americans like Mr. Ackman who are not lily livered and are willing to push back when one' moral compass has gone completely wacky. Adios Gay and Kornbluth, hey?
Not lily livered? Please provide an update as soon as he criticizes Elon for his anti-semetic posts. You can't call out hate against one, while giving others a pass. Well, I guess you can if you are lily livered.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 02:09:18 PM
Trump's biggest mishandling of the entire covid fiasco was deferring to Fauci and Birks and giving them TV time each night to scare the snot out of everyone.
His biggest mishandling of the entire fiasco came when he downplayed the severity of the situation, and then when he ignored it, and then when he got Herman Cain killed and several others (including himself and Chris Christie) on-death's-doorstep sick by hosting superspreader events. Of course, the mishandling began even before Covid-19 existed, as his administration cut the pandemic early warning program, eliminated the pandemic overseer, and ignored the previous administration's pandemic playbook.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 02:09:18 PM
#fearandcontrol
That's funny because fear and control (and lying and victimhood) are your hero's only campaign platforms.
But thanks for admitting that your hero is a "freakin' moron."
Anyhoo, let's get back to the subject at hand: Your hero's lily-livered willingness to embrace raging antisemites.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 02:09:18 PM
No argument here. Trump's biggest mishandling of the entire covid fiasco was deferring to Fauci and Birks and giving them TV time each night to scare the snot out of everyone. Shoulda chitcanned those 2 early on and replaced them with Atlas. BTW, the BOTUS' covid advisor now says its possible that covid may have originated from a leak in a Wuhan lab. Shockin', hey?
#fearandcontrol
Fear and Control
The caravan is on its way
Fentanyl laced Halloween candy
Litter boxes in classrooms
They're gonna take ur guns
The War on XMas
CRT is being taught to your kids right now
George Soros
Barack Hussein Obama
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 02:09:18 PM
No argument here. Trump's biggest mishandling of the entire covid fiasco was deferring to Fauci and Birks and giving them TV time each night to scare the snot out of everyone. Shoulda chitcanned those 2 early on and replaced them with Atlas. BTW, the BOTUS' covid advisor now says its possible that covid may have originated from a leak in a Wuhan lab. Shockin', hey?
#fearandcontrol
It still amazes me that the right continues to harp on this. So, what if COVID 19 was the result of a lab escape? What does that mean, that Trump was right about China purposefully attacking us with a virus? Silly, isn't it. It would simply mean that one of the dozens of crazy things that he says has some semblance of truth. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 11, 2023, 02:34:30 PM
Fear and Control
The caravan is on its way
Fentanyl laced Halloween candy
Litter boxes in classrooms
They're gonna take ur guns
The War on XMas
CRT is being taught to your kids right now
George Soros
Barack Hussein Obama
To me, I laugh at this one the most. Seriously, we need to fear a a band of tired, probably starving, migrants after they have traveled over a thousand miles on foot to the U.S. / Mexican border. This is one reason why I have to laugh at some of my friends on the right. You just can't be a serious person (hey, that has a ring to it) and tell me that I need to fear that such people are a threat to me.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on December 11, 2023, 02:43:15 PM
To me, I laugh at this one the most. Seriously, we need to fear a a band of tired, probably starving, migrants after they have traveled over a thousand miles on foot to the U.S. / Mexican border. This is one reason why I have to laugh at some of my friends on the right. You just can't be a serious person (hey, that has a ring to it) and tell me that I need to fear that such people are a threat to me.
You're forgetting that TERRORISTS!!!!!!!! are embedded in those caravans. They are coming to slash your throat, rape your wife and kids and pull off the next 9/11.
At least according to the fear-and-control crowd.
Marquette Crime Report Guy complains about "fear and control."
Quote from: MU82 on December 11, 2023, 03:11:52 PM
You're forgetting that TERRORISTS!!!!!!!! are embedded in those caravans. They are coming to slash your throat, rape your wife and kids and pull off the next 9/11.
At least according to the fear-and-control crowd.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/migrant-arrested-for-murder-of-texas-16-year-old/vi-AA1lk1kJ
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 11, 2023, 04:39:05 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/migrant-arrested-for-murder-of-texas-16-year-old/vi-AA1lk1kJ
Man msn news what year is this
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 11, 2023, 02:34:30 PM
Fear and Control
The caravan is on its way
Fentanyl laced Halloween candy
Litter boxes in classrooms
They're gonna take ur guns
The War on XMas
CRT is being taught to your kids right now
George Soros
Barack Hussein Obama
Drag Queens
Gas Stoves
Mr. Potato Head
...Ad infinitum
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 11, 2023, 05:08:46 PM
Man msn news what year is this
Imagine thinking pointing to a single murder from 2010 makes your point.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 11, 2023, 05:39:19 PM
Imagine thinking pointing to a single murder from 2010 makes your point.
PLEASE tell the people that you want to vote for to run on the position that all the illegal migrants are good.
U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs Bureau of Justice Statistics
Immigration, Citizenship, and the Federal Justice System, 1998-2018
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/icfjs9818.pdf
In 1998, 63% of all federal arrests were of U.S. citizens; in 2018, 64% of all federal arrests were of non-U.S. citizens
Non-U.S. citizens, who make up 7% of the U.S. population (per the U.S. Census Bureau for 2017), accounted for 15% of all federal
arrests and 15% of prosecutions in U.S. district court for non-immigration crimes in 2018
The portion of total federal arrests that took place in the five judicial districts along the U.S.-Mexico border almost doubled from 1998 (33%) to 2018 (65%)
Ninety-five percent of the increase in federal arrests across 20 years was due to immigration offenses
In 2018, 90% of suspects arrested for federal immigration crimes were male; 10% were female
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 11, 2023, 06:41:47 PM
PLEASE tell the people that you want to vote for to run on the position that all the illegal migrants are good.
Wow, another strawman argument. Shocking how dishonest you are.
https://www.404media.co/twitter-x-ads-stealing-semen-make-a-mom/
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 11, 2023, 06:41:47 PM
PLEASE tell the people that you want to vote for to run on the position that all the illegal migrants are good.
U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs Bureau of Justice Statistics
Immigration, Citizenship, and the Federal Justice System, 1998-2018
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/icfjs9818.pdf
In 1998, 63% of all federal arrests were of U.S. citizens; in 2018, 64% of all federal arrests were of non-U.S. citizens
Non-U.S. citizens, who make up 7% of the U.S. population (per the U.S. Census Bureau for 2017), accounted for 15% of all federal
arrests and 15% of prosecutions in U.S. district court for non-immigration crimes in 2018
The portion of total federal arrests that took place in the five judicial districts along the U.S.-Mexico border almost doubled from 1998 (33%) to 2018 (65%)
Ninety-five percent of the increase in federal arrests across 20 years was due to immigration offenses
In 2018, 90% of suspects arrested for federal immigration crimes were male; 10% were female
There is a terrorist in Texas, the attorney general, who just prevented a woman from aborting a dying fetus. Taking the fetus to term would threaten the life or health of the mother; or it could prevent her from having more kids, which she and her husband want.
It is the opposite of caring about life. It's the opposite of being pro-family. It is anti-life and anti-family, and it is all about control.
What that terrorist is doing to that American woman and that American family is far worse than what 99.9999% of immigrants do to any American. Immigrants want better lives, and our economy would be in deep doo-doo with out them.
So PLEASE tell the people you want to vote for to run on the position that these terrorists care about life. This is just the kind of issue that has cost you Eastern non-progressives dearly in recent election cycles.
December 7, 2023
The Economist
One in five young Americans think the Holocaust is a myth
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/12/07/one-in-five-young-americans-think-the-holocaust-is-a-myth
Though young Americans' views are most stark, antisemitism is rearing its head in other demographic groups. The same YouGov/The Economist poll found that 27% of black respondents and 19% of Hispanics believe that Jews have too much power in America, compared with 13% of white respondents who say so. Whatever the reasons, the polling is alarming.
(https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=360,quality=80,format=auto/content-assets/images/20231209_USC666.png)
Top groups that believe the Holocaust didn't happen:
-Democrats: 10% (vs 5% of Republicans)
-Black people: 13% (vs 5% white people)
-City residents: 14% (vs 3% rural people)
-Young people: 20% (vs 0% of age 65+)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GA0kt9ZWIAAaSO_?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 11, 2023, 06:50:17 PM
https://www.404media.co/twitter-x-ads-stealing-semen-make-a-mom/
Haters gonna hate
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 11, 2023, 07:04:41 PM
December 7, 2023
The Economist
One in five young Americans think the Holocaust is a myth
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/12/07/one-in-five-young-americans-think-the-holocaust-is-a-myth
Though young Americans' views are most stark, antisemitism is rearing its head in other demographic groups. The same YouGov/The Economist poll found that 27% of black respondents and 19% of Hispanics believe that Jews have too much power in America, compared with 13% of white respondents who say so. Whatever the reasons, the polling is alarming.
(https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=360,quality=80,format=auto/content-assets/images/20231209_USC666.png)
Top groups that believe the Holocaust didn't happen:
-Democrats: 10% (vs 5% of Republicans)
-Black people: 13% (vs 5% white people)
-City residents: 14% (vs 3% rural people)
-Young people: 20% (vs 0% of age 65+)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GA0kt9ZWIAAaSO_?format=jpg&name=large)
We should probably fund our education systems better huh
Douchey, I have relatives who died in gas chambers. And even if I didn't, it still would be beyond disgusting that so many Americans are Holocaust deniers. It makes me sick.
That the ex-president dined with two Holocaust deniers, one white and one black, makes me sick.
That Elon Musk's social-disease site is a cesspool for Holocaust deniers (not to mention plain ol' antisemites and racists and conspiracy theorists) makes me sick.
Holocaust denial is even worse than election denial, even if the latter is more of a threat to American democracy.
Y'all are a fookin' riot, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2023, 07:28:06 PM
Y'all are a fookin' riot, hey?
Holocaust deniers dining with your favorite president ever are a riot?
This sounds more like a stalemate and not a resolution.
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1734394682413588949?s=20
From a source I trust:
Claudine Gay will not resign and the governing boards decided not to terminate her as president of @Harvard.
Dec. 12, 2023 4:06 pm ET
Israel Begins Pumping Seawater Into Hamas's Gaza Tunnels
Early effort to flood tunnels is one of several techniques aimed at destroying network that underpins Hamas's operations
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-hamas-war-pumping-seawater-gaza-tunnels-2ed3b3f2
Israel's military has begun pumping seawater into Hamas's vast complex of tunnels in Gaza, according to U.S. officials briefed on the Israeli military's operations, part of an intensive effort to destroy the underground infrastructure that has underpinned the group's operations.
The move to flood the tunnels with water from the Mediterranean, which is in an early stage, is one of several techniques Israel is using to try to clear and destroy the tunnels.
https://x.com/eylonalevy/status/1734155933293367438?s=46&t=uSnZlSLOtzvp-jqg6eHG4Q
Since Hamas launched this war, the Israeli Air Force has struck 22,000+ targets in the Gaza Strip. Even based on Hamas numbers passing off terrorists as civilians, that's less than 0.8 civilian deaths per airstrike.
That's what world-leading precision looks like.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 11, 2023, 08:12:37 PM
This sounds more like a stalemate and not a resolution.
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1734394682413588949?s=20
From a source I trust:
Claudine Gay will not resign and the governing boards decided not to terminate her as president of @Harvard.
Wonder how a protected class member woulda been treated, hey?
Ukraine has done so much better than expected since Putin's army attacked.
For one thing, a newly declassified U.S. intelligence assessment estimates Russia has lost nearly 90% of its prewar army to death or injury.
The U.S. needs to keep giving Ukraine aid. We can't let Putin - an antisemite who funds Iran - regroup. Congress needs to stop playing politics. The world is at stake.
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2023, 06:07:18 PM
Ukraine has done so much better than expected since Putin's army attacked.
For one thing, a newly declassified U.S. intelligence assessment estimates Russia has lost nearly 90% of its prewar army to death or injury.
The U.S. needs to keep giving Ukraine aid. We can't let Putin - an antisemite who funds Iran - regroup. Congress needs to stop playing politics. The world is at stake.
The Republicans are standing in the way. They're on Russia's side now. Reagan spinning in his grave.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 12, 2023, 05:08:07 PM
https://x.com/eylonalevy/status/1734155933293367438?s=46&t=uSnZlSLOtzvp-jqg6eHG4Q
Since Hamas launched this war, the Israeli Air Force has struck 22,000+ targets in the Gaza Strip. Even based on Hamas numbers passing off terrorists as civilians, that's less than 0.8 civilian deaths per airstrike.
That's what world-leading precision looks like.
Right, the government spokesman. Your numbers are pretty off even by the IDF's estimations buddy.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/amp/
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231212-20-palestinians-killed-as-israel-bombs-homes-in-rafah-safe-zone/
So are they being precise and bombing their own proclaimed safe zones? Or are they not being forthcoming with the actual results/goals of their campaign
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 12, 2023, 06:43:39 PM
Right,
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231212-20-palestinians-killed-as-israel-bombs-homes-in-rafah-safe-zone/
Did you read the first three paragraphs? It speaks volumes about their bias and possibly about you, too.
I'll help you here ...
Some 20 Palestinians were killed
after occupation aircraft bombed several homes in the city of Rafah, south of the Gaza Strip, early this morning.
Palestinian medical sources reported that 20 Palestinians, the majority of whom were women and children, were killed as a result of the
occupation aircraft bombing homes in the city of Rafah, which the occupation has declared a "safe zone" and called on Palestinians from around Gaza to relocate to it.
The occupation continues its genocidal aggression against the Gaza Strip for the 67th consecutive day, with American and European support. Its planes have repeatedly bombed the homes of Palestinian civilians and destroyed them over their heads,
killing 18,205 martyrs, in addition to wounding 49,645, mostly children and women. They also caused major destruction to the infrastructure, and committed one of the
largest massacres that the region has witnessed over the past decades.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on December 12, 2023, 06:23:29 PM
The Republicans are standing in the way. They're on Russia's side now. Reagan spinning in his grave.
Saying that the Republicans are on Russia's side is as accurate as claiming that Democrats are in favor of totally open borders.
Both are ridiculous.
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2023, 06:07:18 PM
Ukraine has done so much better than expected since Putin's army attacked.
For one thing, a newly declassified U.S. intelligence assessment estimates Russia has lost nearly 90% of its prewar army to death or injury.
The U.S. needs to keep giving Ukraine aid. We can't let Putin - an antisemite who funds Iran - regroup. Congress needs to stop playing politics. The world is at stake.
By the way, the 90% is 315,000 deaths.
U.S. intelligence assesses Ukraine war has cost Russia 315,000 casualties -source
https://news.yahoo.com/u-intelligence-assesses-ukraine-war-161649343.html
Let's have
proportionality from the Ukranians. It sounds like they are committing genocide against the Russian people.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 12, 2023, 06:50:16 PM
Did you read the first three paragraphs? It speaks volumes about their bias and possibly about you, too.
I'll help you here ...
Some 20 Palestinians were killed after occupation aircraft bombed several homes in the city of Rafah, south of the Gaza Strip, early this morning.
Palestinian medical sources reported that 20 Palestinians, the majority of whom were women and children, were killed as a result of the occupation aircraft bombing homes in the city of Rafah, which the occupation has declared a "safe zone" and called on Palestinians from around Gaza to relocate to it.
The occupation continues its genocidal aggression against the Gaza Strip for the 67th consecutive day, with American and European support. Its planes have repeatedly bombed the homes of Palestinian civilians and destroyed them over their heads, killing 18,205 martyrs, in addition to wounding 49,645, mostly children and women. They also caused major destruction to the infrastructure, and committed one of the largest massacres that the region has witnessed over the past decades.
Does that mean it didn't happen? A middle eastern sourced article uses language based around culture and society of their readers? Oh my stars!
Middle East monitor is often the first to report events in the region annd the conflict, and known to use Islamic directed language, yes. But they are regarded by fact checking organizations to be for the most part credible, except for scattered occasions of poor sources early on.
Or did you get more upset with the wording than the actual civilian deaths? I imagine so given your utter disdain and repulsion to anything Islam.
I did notice that you ignored the times of Israel article completely because it was inconvenient for you to address though. Which speaks way more volumes about you and your general bad faith dipsh**tery
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2023, 06:55:41 PM
Saying that the Republicans are on Russia's side is as accurate as claiming that Democrats are in favor of totally open borders.
Both are ridiculous.
You really aren't paying attention to what your party is doing, are you?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2023, 06:55:41 PM
Saying that the Republicans are on Russia's side is as accurate as claiming that Democrats are in favor of totally open borders.
Both are ridiculous.
How many Republicans will criticize Trump for calling Putin a genius? Or, for siding with Putin rather than the U.S. intelligence infrastructure?
Now, how many Democrats do you know who are calling for open borders?
Hmmmmmmm .....
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 12, 2023, 07:20:59 PM
Does that mean it didn't happen? A middle eastern sourced article uses language based around culture and society of their readers? Oh my stars!
Middle East monitor is often the first to report events in the region annd the conflict, and known to use Islamic directed language, yes. But they are regarded by fact checking organizations to be for the most part credible, except for scattered occasions of poor sources early on.
Or did you get more upset with the wording than the actual civilian deaths? I imagine so given your utter disdain and repulsion to anything Islam.
I did notice that you ignored the times of Israel article completely because it was inconvenient for you to address though. Which speaks way more volumes about you and your general bad faith dipsh**tery
Does it mean it did not happen? Do you mean like Israel bombing a hospital, killing 500? This still contend it happened.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231026-gaza-hospital-massacre-and-the-marketing-of-israeli-lies/
A blast killed more than 500 civilians in the "safe" yard of Al Ahli Baptist Hospital. Within a few hours, the Israeli army concluded it was a misfired Palestinian rocket. US President, Joe Biden, soon after his arrival in Tel Aviv, adopted the Israeli story blaming "the other side" for the explosion.
Israel's deliberate targeting of individuals or civilians seeking refuge in "safer places" has been part of the Israeli war strategy since its inception in 1948.
----
So yes, I do not post Hamas propaganda and insult and swear at anyone who is skeptical of Hamas propaganda. This publication constantly lies.
As I said, these posts speak volumes about you and your true beliefs, not about what happened today in Gaza.
It feels like not firing Harvard President Claudine Gay did not end this issue but is ratcheting it up to somewhere they did not want it to go: the larger problems with politics and DEI within elite universities.
FYI, the Harvard board is called the Harvard Corporation. It might be the most elitist organization in the country. And the head of the board, the senior trustee, might be the apex predator of elitest.
The current senior trustee of the Harvard corporation is Penny Pritzker, former commerce Secretary for Obama and Illinois Governor JB Pritzker's sister.
----
Lawmakers introduce bipartisan resolution condemning college presidents' response to antisemitism
The resolution, first obtained by NBC News, calls on the presidents of Harvard and MIT to resign.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/bipartisan-resolution-condemn-college-presidents-antisemitism-campus-rcna129350
The resolution, first obtained by NBC News, is authored by House GOP Conference Chair Elise Stefanik, R-N.Y.; the three other lead sponsors are Majority Leader Steve Scalise, R-La., and two Jewish American Democrats, Problem Solvers Caucus Co-Chair Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey and Rep. Jared Moskowitz of Florida.
It is expected to get a vote this week, Stefanik's office said.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 12, 2023, 05:08:28 PM
Wonder how a protected class member woulda been treated, hey?
how much ya wanna bet she is a BIG BLM supporter?? BLM=anti-Semites
these are wades kinda people
oh, btw, didn't ha vud come down hard and rightly so, on a bunch of students caught plagiarizing/cheating back in 2012? but it's ok when your school president and hell, the potus they put into office plagiarizes. significant of vapid personalities and look where it's getting us
@realchrisrufo
The students at the Harvard Crimson are young, idealistic, and honest enough to write that Claudine Gay committed plagiarism.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBLQF2waQAAUzj1?format=jpg&name=medium)
Compare this to the apparatchiks at the New York Times, who cynically operate as the ideological enforcers for the regime.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBLQW1Ma0AAa5ug?format=jpg&name=medium)
Plagiarism, you say?
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/elise-stefanik-accused-of-plagiarizing-letter-by-democratic-colleague-mere-hours-after-she-denounced-plagiarist-harvard-president/
Quote from: Pakuni on December 12, 2023, 08:56:19 PM
Plagiarism, you say?
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/elise-stefanik-accused-of-plagiarizing-letter-by-democratic-colleague-mere-hours-after-she-denounced-plagiarist-harvard-president/
Oh wow ... she is now as qualified as Biden to be President!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/echoes-of-bidens-1987-plagiarism-scandal-continue-to-reverberate/2019/06/05/dbaf3716-7292-11e9-9eb4-0828f5389013_story.html
Shall we keep playing this moral equivalency game?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 12, 2023, 09:05:37 PM
Oh wow ... she is now as qualified as Biden to be President!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/echoes-of-bidens-1987-plagiarism-scandal-continue-to-reverberate/2019/06/05/dbaf3716-7292-11e9-9eb4-0828f5389013_story.html
Shall we keep playing this moral equivalency game?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy
Quote from: Pakuni on December 12, 2023, 09:09:24 PM
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy
Disappointing. I expect more from you.
Sleep on it and try better with the reflective insult tomorrow.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 12, 2023, 09:12:56 PM
Disappointing. I expect more from you.
Sleep on it and try better with the reflective insult tomorrow.
That's directed at Stefanik, not you. Because somehow you don't understand the difference between hypocrisy and moral equivalence.
Alas, we've all come not to expect better from you m
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 12, 2023, 08:00:32 PM
Does it mean it did not happen? Do you mean like Israel bombing a hospital, killing 500? This still contend it happened.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231026-gaza-hospital-massacre-and-the-marketing-of-israeli-lies/
A blast killed more than 500 civilians in the "safe" yard of Al Ahli Baptist Hospital. Within a few hours, the Israeli army concluded it was a misfired Palestinian rocket. US President, Joe Biden, soon after his arrival in Tel Aviv, adopted the Israeli story blaming "the other side" for the explosion.
Israel's deliberate targeting of individuals or civilians seeking refuge in "safer places" has been part of the Israeli war strategy since its inception in 1948.
----
So yes, I do not post Hamas propaganda and insult and swear at anyone who is skeptical of Hamas propaganda. This publication constantly lies.
As I said, these posts speak volumes about you and your true beliefs, not about what happened today in Gaza.
You just post propaganda from everything else if it meets the point you're trying to make. #NASP
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 12, 2023, 08:26:45 PM
how much ya wanna bet she is a BIG BLM supporter?? BLM=anti-Semites
these are wades kinda people
oh, btw, didn't ha vud come down hard and rightly so, on a bunch of students caught plagiarizing/cheating back in 2012? but it's ok when your school president and hell, the potus they put into office plagiarizes. significant of vapid personalities and look where it's getting us
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/35/ce/10/35ce10654de068cbe8fd2e7ce66aab38.jpg)
Quote from: SoCalEagle on December 12, 2023, 06:23:29 PM
The Republicans are standing in the way. They're on Russia's side now. Reagan spinning in his grave.
He'd be called RINO Ron today.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on December 12, 2023, 07:43:03 PM
How many Republicans will criticize Trump for calling Putin a genius? Or, for siding with Putin rather than the U.S. intelligence infrastructure?
Now, how many Democrats do you know who are calling for open borders?
Hmmmmmmm .....
Calling someone smart, or in Trump's constant hyperbole (if you haven't noticed) doesn't have any connection with whether you support their politics. Any honest Democrat on Scoop or anywhere else.would concede that Elon Musk is a genius (except for forgetful). So what? I don't understand what you mean by the "siding with Putin"part but I certainly can't blame him for being suspicious re US intelligence after all of their recent blunders and on a more personal level how they pushed lies about him that they knew were lies.
Democrats don't have to "call for open borders". It's pretty much a done deal - how much are illegal crossings up since President Biden was elected? What have they done to stop them? It took them three years and several busloads to sanctuary cities for them to concede there was a crisis at the border. Until then it was "what's the big deal"?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2023, 10:04:54 PM
Calling someone smart, or in Trump's constant hyperbole (if you haven't noticed) doesn't have any connection with whether you support their politics. Any honest Democrat on Scoop or anywhere else.would concede that Elon Musk is a genius (except for forgetful). So what? I don't understand what you mean by the "siding with Putin"part but I certainly can't blame him for being suspicious re US intelligence after all of their recent blunders and on a more personal level how they pushed lies about him that they knew were lies.
Democrats don't have to "call for open borders". It's pretty much a done deal - how much are illegal crossings up since President Biden was elected? What have they done to stop them? It took them three years and several busloads to sanctuary cities for them to concede there was a crisis at the border. Until then it was "what's the big deal"?
I don't think Musk is a "genius" at all. And I think it's pretty obvious that many Republicans today are enamored with Putin.
And many of the people crossing the border today, and creating headlines in the process, are requesting asylum. That's not "illegal." It's actually perfectly legal.
So 0 for 3.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2023, 10:04:54 PM
Calling someone smart, or in Trump's constant hyperbole (if you haven't noticed) doesn't have any connection with whether you support their politics. Any honest Democrat on Scoop or anywhere else.would concede that Elon Musk is a genius (except for forgetful). So what? I don't understand what you mean by the "siding with Putin"part but I certainly can't blame him for being suspicious re US intelligence after all of their recent blunders and on a more personal level how they pushed lies about him that they knew were lies.
Democrats don't have to "call for open borders". It's pretty much a done deal - how much are illegal crossings up since President Biden was elected? What have they done to stop them? It took them three years and several busloads to sanctuary cities for them to concede there was a crisis at the border. Until then it was "what's the big deal"?
Well, if the Republicans were so concerned about immigration, then they would have accepted the Immigration Reform Act in 2013. It included $40 Billion for a border security (Trump only asked for $30 Billion), along with a path to citizenship for immigrants already here, and an employment verification system. Folks, we had this issue solved back in 2013. What happened, you ask? You know the answer: the Republicans in the House tanked the bill after it passed the Senate with an overwhelming majority.
So, no it's not "pretty much a done deal" that the Democrats want open borders. If that was their position, they wouldn't have pushed so hard to provide border security as part of the immigration reform package back in 2013. It really is a shame that the Republicans didn't pass the bill when they had a chance. We would all be better off with this issue behind us.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 12, 2023, 09:23:00 PM
You just post propaganda from everything else if it meets the point you're trying to make. #NASP
Correct
I'm Philo-sematic and Zionist and happy to declare it again here.
Are you willing to equally declare to everyone you are pro-Hamas and happy to proclaim it as well? Because you post pro-Hamas propaganda, and when I called you on it, you insulted and swore at me.
And if you want to be outraged by 20 innocent people being killed in Gaza, try this story.
Twenty hostages have died in Hamas captivity since Oct. 7 attacks.
https://www.msnbc.com/yasmin-vossoughian/watch/twenty-hostages-have-died-in-hamas-captivity-since-oct-7-attacks-199888453856
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2023, 10:04:54 PM
Calling someone smart, or in Trump's constant hyperbole (if you haven't noticed) doesn't have any connection with whether you support their politics. Any honest Democrat on Scoop or anywhere else.would concede that Elon Musk is a genius (except for forgetful). So what? I don't understand what you mean by the "siding with Putin"part but I certainly can't blame him for being suspicious re US intelligence after all of their recent blunders and on a more personal level how they pushed lies about him that they knew were lies.
Democrats don't have to "call for open borders". It's pretty much a done deal - how much are illegal crossings up since President Biden was elected? What have they done to stop them? It took them three years and several busloads to sanctuary cities for them to concede there was a crisis at the border. Until then it was "what's the big deal"?
Illegal border crossers total over
10 million since Biden inauguration
https://www.thecentersquare.com/national/article_9d841124-7449-11ee-af4a-af115ad29337.html
----
Sanctuary cities are treating them like animals ... stuffing them in warehouses for the winter (and probably locking the doors.) Imagine the huge outcry if a Republican did this.
https://abc7chicago.com/migrants-in-chicago-pilsen-shelter-migrant-warehouse/13853932/#:~:text=The%20shelter%20inside%20a%20vacant,shelter%20in%20the%2025th%20Ward.
Rage over accommodating Chicago's rapidly-swelling migrant population is boiling over.
The city is preparing to open another shelter. It's second one in the Pilsen neighborhood, and the population of majority Latino residents are torn.
---
The shelter inside a vacant warehouse at Cermak and Halsted will initially house 400 migrant families with children. Eventually, it could accommodate up to 1,000.
---
Effectively santuacy cities are committing human rights abuses so bad that ...
Migrant family journeys back to Venezuela, more leaving Chicago as winter looms: 'The American Dream doesn't exist anymore'
https://www.chicagotribune.com/immigration/ct-migrants-leave-chicago-winter-20231112-xdyymx6fvza6hkftqxb3nybzg4-story.html
And wait until next spring/summer when the busses overwhelm Chicago with migrants ahead of the Democrat convention and turn it into a Clusterf**K.
---
Arizona is supposed to be a swing state. Still think it is? Because this is THE ISSUE they will be voting on
Katie Hobbs is a Democrat. So are Arizona Senators Mark Kelly and Kyrsten Sinema.
Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs demands $512M reimbursement from Biden in scathing letter accusing him of failure to secure southern border
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12844867/Arizona-Katie-Hobbs-border-Lukeville-Biden.html
Alongside Governor Hobbs, Arizona Senators Mark Kelly and Kyrsten Sinema have slammed the Lukeville closure and demanded better solutions from Biden's administration.
You are correct that we are treating many migrants awfully, including using them as political pawns.
But those seeking asylum are not crossing the border illegally.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 12, 2023, 08:32:05 PM
@realchrisrufo
The students at the Harvard Crimson are young, idealistic, and honest enough to write that Claudine Gay committed plagiarism.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBLQF2waQAAUzj1?format=jpg&name=medium)
Compare this to the apparatchiks at the New York Times, who cynically operate as the ideological enforcers for the regime.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBLQW1Ma0AAa5ug?format=jpg&name=medium)
this is CLASSIC ! the ha vud red vs the slimes...beautiful! don't think i can recall anyone ever comparing the crimson with fox news, but ny times fortifying their "pravda" reputation for all of you who rely on it as your "go to" symbol of "journalism" standing "O" baby and another shout out to wades with his unflappable support for anti-semitism-stand proud young man. maybe it's just me with my sleepy eyes but damn, that isis flag and blm flag looking like they are cut from similar cloth, eyn'a?
Rocket. Don't worry, your eyes are fine. You're just dumb.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 13, 2023, 06:06:29 AM
this is CLASSIC ! the ha vud red vs the slimes...beautiful! don't think i can recall anyone ever comparing the crimson with fox news, but ny times fortifying their "pravda" reputation for all of you who rely on it as your "go to" symbol of "journalism" standing "O" baby and another shout out to wades with his unflappable support for anti-semitism-stand proud young man. maybe it's just me with my sleepy eyes but damn, that isis flag and blm flag looking like they are cut from similar cloth, eyn'a?
8 out of 10
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 13, 2023, 06:06:29 AM
this is CLASSIC ! the ha vud red vs the slimes...beautiful! don't think i can recall anyone ever comparing the crimson with fox news, but ny times fortifying their "pravda" reputation for all of you who rely on it as your "go to" symbol of "journalism" standing "O" baby and another shout out to wades with his unflappable support for anti-semitism-stand proud young man. maybe it's just me with my sleepy eyes but damn, that isis flag and blm flag looking like they are cut from similar cloth, eyn'a?
what's it like to be this online?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 12, 2023, 08:23:42 PM
It feels like not firing Harvard President Claudine Gay did not end this issue but is ratcheting it up to somewhere they did not want it to go: the larger problems with politics and DEI within elite universities.
FYI, the Harvard board is called the Harvard Corporation. It might be the most elitist organization in the country. And the head of the board, the senior trustee, might be the apex predator of elitest.
The current senior trustee of the Harvard corporation is Penny Pritzker, former commerce Secretary for Obama and Illinois Governor JB Pritzker's sister.
----
Lawmakers introduce bipartisan resolution condemning college presidents' response to antisemitism
The resolution, first obtained by NBC News, calls on the presidents of Harvard and MIT to resign.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/bipartisan-resolution-condemn-college-presidents-antisemitism-campus-rcna129350
The resolution, first obtained by NBC News, is authored by House GOP Conference Chair Elise Stefanik, R-N.Y.; the three other lead sponsors are Majority Leader Steve Scalise, R-La., and two Jewish American Democrats, Problem Solvers Caucus Co-Chair Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey and Rep. Jared Moskowitz of Florida.
It is expected to get a vote this week, Stefanik's office said.
lol. Yet another worthless battle in a useless culture war.
Lol @ Chris Rufo
Quote from: reinko on December 13, 2023, 07:12:58 AM
what's it like to be this online?
Maybe they were drunk, returning from a KISS concert, driving 100 MPH after spending time in a casino.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 13, 2023, 10:41:09 AM
Maybe they were drunk, returning from a KISS concert, driving 100 MPH after spending time in a casino.
Maybe they were TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2023, 10:04:54 PM
Calling someone smart, or in Trump's constant hyperbole (if you haven't noticed) doesn't have any connection with whether you support their politics. Any honest Democrat on Scoop or anywhere else.would concede that Elon Musk is a genius (except for forgetful). So what? I don't understand what you mean by the "siding with Putin"part but I certainly can't blame him for being suspicious re US intelligence after all of their recent blunders and on a more personal level how they pushed lies about him that they knew were lies.
Democrats don't have to "call for open borders". It's pretty much a done deal - how much are illegal crossings up since President Biden was elected? What have they done to stop them? It took them three years and several busloads to sanctuary cities for them to concede there was a crisis at the border. Until then it was "what's the big deal"?
Yikes. Hard to determine how much of the above is willful ignorance vs. how much is intentional intellectual dishonesty.
Don't understand what "siding with Putin" part means? Yeah, ok.
All I read on here is ignorance and more ignorance.
Stop the ignorance!
Ok, that is my position.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 13, 2023, 10:41:09 AM
Maybe they were drunk, returning from a KISS concert, driving 100 MPH after spending time in a casino.
Maybe?!?!
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 13, 2023, 10:54:20 AM
Yikes. Hard to determine how much of the above is willful ignorance vs. how much is intentional intellectual dishonesty.
Zero. Willful ignorance and dishonesty (intellectual and otherwise) is your department.
https://apnews.com/article/north-america-donald-trump-ap-top-news-elections-moscow-2d4866bea9f243419ac216f68a858704
Even Republicans were stunned by the then-president's kowtowing to Putin on an international stage.
The previous president would hand a big chunk of Europe to Putin on a silver platter, anything to curry favor with a dictator who would nuke America into submission if he thought he could get away with it.
And in keeping with the theme of this thread ... Putin, an ally of Iran's most extreme leaders, would happily see all Jews eliminated, too. He thinks they're vermin.
If Gay were not what she is, she'd be drop kicked half way to Antartica by now, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 11:52:29 AM
If Gay were not what she is, she'd be drop kicked half way to Antartica by now, hey?
Go on
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 13, 2023, 01:01:15 AM
Correct
I'm Philo-sematic and Zionist and happy to declare it again here.
Are you willing to equally declare to everyone you are pro-Hamas and happy to proclaim it as well? Because you post pro-Hamas propaganda, and when I called you on it, you insulted and swore at me.
And if you want to be outraged by 20 innocent people being killed in Gaza, try this story.
Twenty hostages have died in Hamas captivity since Oct. 7 attacks.
https://www.msnbc.com/yasmin-vossoughian/watch/twenty-hostages-have-died-in-hamas-captivity-since-oct-7-attacks-199888453856
I myself can say that hostages dying in captivity is unequivocally bad, and it hurts me that Israeli civilians are caught in this conflict, dying, and being held like this.
I have been to every continent on earth besides Oceania/Antartica and maybe I am an idealist there but people in general are kind, welcoming, and eager to share and learn about each other's cultures. Our government and loudest voices often do not speak for those on an individual level.
You however express something along the lines of bizarre glee over the mass casualties of women, children, journalists, etc because they happen to
fall under a group you consider subhuman (deny all you want but you have done nothing but insist that their culture and society has never existed which is genocidal language, thank goodness you aren't in charge).
Every civilian death to me in this conflict is a tragic waste and only a trend in the wrong direction and a step towards continuation of perpetual violence. I have been clear that I believe that shock and awe with massive collateral damage will only make Israel's regional opposition worse (we have debated whether that's misguided or not for the last 150 pages).
I believe Hamas in its current state is a symptom of societal hopelessness and cynical foreign opportunism. Recognizing there's underlying causes to a problem does not make someone "pro". (Well at least not those who can think critically and not just spew links they clearly haven't read closely).
I guess where we will never see eye to eye is people's equality despite their religion, birth, and place in life/society. I don't know if it's due to basic intellectual incuriosity, intellectual arrogance, Or what. But you should try having some empathy for a change. It would do you and this discussion some good.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 11:52:29 AM
If Gay were not what she is, she'd be drop kicked half way to Antartica by now, hey?
Pretty good deal on these Doc!
SWAUSWAUK Dog Whistle Training X 2 Pack-Professional High Frequency Pitch Recall-Can Be Heard by Human Ears (Red) https://a.co/d/gUb2VKn
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 11:52:29 AM
If Gay were not what she is, she'd be drop kicked half way to Antartica by now, hey?
Wow, you're real on a white- victimhood roll today.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 11:52:29 AM
If Gay were not what she is, she'd be drop kicked half way to Antartica by now, hey?
And if she were not what she is, this entire controversy would have long blown over already.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 11:52:29 AM
If Gay were not what she is, she'd be drop kicked half way to Antartica by now, hey?
She's a "what" now. Between this and your Arab takes, lemme guess, you asked for a white hood when graduating from dental school??
She's a black woman who, when questioned whether calling for the genocide of Jews would violate Harvard's code of conduct, could only say it depended on the context. Really?
Of course, she walked it back when Harvard's board would meet to discuss her testimony. Oh, she's also guilty of plagiarism within her doctoral thesis. Pretty serious stuff for the president of one of the world's most prestigious institutions of higher learning to represent, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 12:33:25 PM
She's a black woman who, when questioned whether calling for the genocide of Jews would violate Harvard's code of conduct, could only say it depended on the context. Really?
Of course, she walked it back when Harvard's board would meet to discuss her testimony. Oh, she's also guilty of plagiarism within her doctoral thesis. Pretty serious stuff for the president of one of the world's most prestigious institutions of higher learning to represent, aina?
Could have saved yourself a whole lot of time there.
Don't try to put words in my mouth. Under what context would calling for the genocide of Jews be an acceptable official position for Harvard to take, hey?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 12, 2023, 10:17:56 PM
I don't think Musk is a "genius" at all. And I think it's pretty obvious that many Republicans today are enamored with Putin.
And many of the people crossing the border today, and creating headlines in the process, are requesting asylum. That's not "illegal." It's actually perfectly legal.
So 0 for 3.
Your wrong. Like him or not, Musk is absolutely a genius.
I don't know one Republican enamored with Putin. You must hang in a different group.
Many are illegals, many are seeking asylum. Are wonder why the border is overwhelmed with asylum speakers? Couldn't be because the current occupant of the White House welcomed them with open arms? Tantamount to open borders.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 12:59:45 PM
I don't know one Republican enamored with Putin. You must hang in a different group.
https://accountability.gop/ukraine-quotes/
A rogues gallery and greatest hits package, all at once.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 12:57:18 PM
Don't try to put words in my mouth. Under what context would calling for the genocide of Jews be an acceptable official position for Harvard to take, hey?
Nobody has to put words in your mouth. You put your own words in your mouth.
You yourself brought up that she's Black. It was an unsolicited comment by you and you alone. In the NBA thread, you brought up that Draymond Green is Black. Again, unsolicited. Again, having absolutely nothing to do with the actual topic.
Why don't the antisemitic words and actions of powerful white men bother you?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 13, 2023, 12:36:00 PM
Could have saved yourself a whole lot of time there.
Clearly Mike, my post contained more substance that was crossed out by ATL. Why is it that you won't man up and condemn antisemitic actions, rather than assume all Republicans are antisemitic? Obviously, today's Democratic Party is not the party of 30-40 years ago, but you refuse to acknowledge that, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 01:21:25 PM
Clearly Mike, my post contained more substance that was crossed out by ATL. Why is it that you won't man up and condemn antisemitic actions, rather than assume all Republicans are antisemitic? Obviously, today's Democratic Party is not the party of 30-40 years ago, but you refuse to acknowledge that, hey?
Why should he? They're just pawns
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 12:59:45 PM
Your wrong. Like him or not, Musk is absolutely a genius.
LOL. Your bar for genius is low.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 12:59:45 PM
Many are illegals, many are seeking asylum. Are wonder why the border is overwhelmed with asylum speakers? Couldn't be because the current occupant of the White House welcomed them with open arms? Tantamount to open borders.
Oh. Goalpost shift noted.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 12:57:18 PM
Don't try to put words in my mouth. Under what context would calling for the genocide of Jews be an acceptable official position for Harvard to take, hey?
Months after Trump refused to condemn the white supremacists at Charlottesville, you called him the best president of your lifetime.
You praise Mark Levin, a guy who trades in Great Replacement Theory.
And yet we're supposed to believe you care about antisemitism?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 12:59:45 PM
Couldn't be because the current occupant of the White House welcomed them with open arms?
Citation needed.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 01:21:25 PM
Clearly Mike, my post contained more substance that was crossed out by ATL. Why is it that you won't man up and condemn antisemitic actions, rather than assume all Republicans are antisemitic? Obviously, today's Democratic Party is not the party of 30-40 years ago, but you refuse to acknowledge that, hey?
Unlike you, Dan, I have condemned antisemitic actions and words from those of all political persuasions. You just shrug your shoulders if they come from powerful white men -- especially (but certainly not exclusively) the powerful white man who dined with two raging antisemites, who admires the antisemite in charge of Russia, who uses Hitler's language to describe those he wants to eradicate, and who constantly solicits support from antisemites.
Bringing up the race of Gay (and Draymond Green), that's a whole 'nother thing. You can own that latest example of white victimhood.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 11:43:19 AM
Zero. Willful ignorance and dishonesty (intellectual and otherwise) is your department.
Wow what a zinger. I thought only roqqet still went with, "I know you are, but what am I?" Congratulations.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 12:59:45 PM
I don't know one Republican enamored with Putin. You must hang in a different group.
LMAO. Hmmm, still doesn't answer what percentage is willful ignorance and what percentage is intellectual dishonesty, though.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 12:57:18 PM
Don't try to put words in my mouth. Under what context would calling for the genocide of Jews be an acceptable official position for Harvard to take, hey?
There's a difference between what an individual student says on campus vs official position of the university. You're aware of that, right?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2023, 02:04:12 PM
There's a difference between what an individual student says on campus vs official position of the university. You're aware of that, right?
I'm not sure which answer is worse.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 13, 2023, 01:51:46 PM
Wow what a zinger. I thought only roqqet still went with, "I know you are, but what am I?" Congratulations.
Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2023, 01:45:29 PM
Unlike you, Dan, I have condemned antisemitic actions and words from those of all political persuasions. You just shrug your shoulders if they come from powerful white men -- especially (but certainly not exclusively) the powerful white man who dined with two raging antisemites, who admires the antisemite in charge of Russia, who uses Hitler's language to describe those he wants to eradicate, and who constantly solicits support from antisemites.
Bringing up the race of Gay (and Draymond Green), that's a whole 'nother thing. You can own that latest example of white victimhood.
Its all relative. As you know, Trump is not my preference, but unless he's in jail its looking more and more likely that he will be the Republican nominee. Given that, I find Trump to be a better presidential option than the BOTUS.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 13, 2023, 01:53:04 PM
LMAO. Hmmm, still doesn't answer what percentage is willful ignorance and what percentage is intellectual dishonesty, though.
Wow...LMAO followed by Hmmm - very clever burn, maybe your best ever. How do you come up with this stuff. Super smart, very edgy.
I answered your question, dip$hit, here's one for you - have you always been this big a jerk or did you grow into it?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 02:32:10 PM
Wow...LMAO followed by Hmmm - very clever burn, maybe your best ever. How do you come up with this stuff. Super smart, very edgy.
I answered your question, dip$hit, here's one for you - have you always been this big a jerk or did you grow into it?
Careful with that language Lenny, you might make NASP faint
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 13, 2023, 01:36:16 PM
LOL. Your bar for genius is low.
https://www.cognidna.com/celebrity-iq-scores/elon-musk/
Estimated IQ 160, 95% hence it's between 154 and 166. 145 is genius.
It's not a coincidence that the people here who have an inflated opinion of their own intelligence belittle others who are much smarter. See a lot of it here.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 02:44:30 PM
https://www.cognidna.com/celebrity-iq-scores/elon-musk/
Estimated IQ 160, 95% hence it's between 154 and 166. 145 is genius.
It's not a coincidence that the people here who have an inflated opinion of their own intelligence belittle others who are much smarter. See a lot of it here.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Seriously?
"How Did We Calculate This?
Note: We don't have Elon Musk's SAT scores, so we're using the scores of UPenn and physics major students as proxies. Please treat this as a rough estimation."
This, my friends, is how old people fall for internet scams.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 13, 2023, 02:50:15 PM
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Seriously?
"How Did We Calculate This?
Note: We don't have Elon Musk's SAT scores, so we're using the scores of UPenn and physics major students as proxies. Please treat this as a rough estimation."
This, my friends, is how old people fall for internet scams.
https://ts2.space/en/how-do-we-know-what-elon-musks-iq-is/#gsc.tab=0
Here's another one. Estimates abound, most commonly falling in the 155 range, well above the "genius" line.
But based on what, your "eye test", you're convinced his IQ is south of 145?
Want something that deserves a BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA? Your opinion, based on nothing but the fact that you don't like the guy.
I dunno how many geniuses associate with Alex Jones and happily promote him along with providing a platform for him to spew his lies and hate
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 03:05:14 PM
https://ts2.space/en/how-do-we-know-what-elon-musks-iq-is/#gsc.tab=0
Here's another one. Estimates abound, most commonly falling in the 155 range, well above the "genius" line.
But based on what, your "eye test", you're convinced his IQ is south of 145?
Want something that deserves a BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA? Your opinion, based on nothing but the fact that you don't like the guy.
He's a smart guy who has developed the mother of all god complexes and is suffering from an extensive ongoing midlife crisis because after being surrounded by people who have not told him no in decades, the funny people aren't laughing at his jokes on his website and he hates that more than most things.
I can buy he's a genius when it comes to some things (or in my unimportant opinion rather, sharp acumen to driving tech forward, regulations be damned).
Smart people are also just as susceptible to crackpotism as the rest of us though. Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins won a Nobel Prize for their discovery of the double-helix structure of DNA and later led the Human Genome Project. But also veered into asserting that Black people are intellectually inferior to whites and attributing the difference to genetic factors.
Even those who are at the top of their field brilliant can also be truly woefully incurious and outright provably wrong in many other things. This extends to healthcare professionals, engineers, CEOs, dentists, etc. There has never been a truly all encompassing genius I'd venture to bet.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 02:32:10 PM
Wow...LMAO followed by Hmmm - very clever burn, maybe your best ever. How do you come up with this stuff. Super smart, very edgy.
I answered your question, dip$hit, here's one for you - have you always been this big a jerk or did you grow into it?
You sure typed a lot of letters to say, "I give up."
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 11, 2023, 12:58:28 PM
Boomers can't easily identify grifters and it's a societal problem. I dunno how to help them.
Time heals all wounds ;)
Biden calls Israel bombing "indiscriminate". This is, by definition, a war crime.
QuotePresident Joe Biden on Tuesday warned that Israel was losing international support because of its "indiscriminate bombing" of Gaza,
https://apnews.com/article/biden-israel-hamas-oct-7-44c4229d4c1270d9cfa484b664a22071
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 12:59:45 PM
Your wrong. Like him or not, Musk is absolutely a genius.
I don't know one Republican enamored with Putin. You must hang in a different group.
Many are illegals, many are seeking asylum. Are wonder why the border is overwhelmed with asylum speakers? Couldn't be because the current occupant of the White House welcomed them with open arms? Tantamount to open borders.
1. VERY debatable. He started sniffing his own farts and doing too much ketamine...
2. Strange, there are more than a few walking the halls of congress.
3. We ruined their home country and they are left with little option but to flee. It sure would be nice to accommodate the people who are trying to escape murder and ransom. That'd be downright American of us!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 02:09:41 PM
Its all relative. As you know, Trump is not my preference, but unless he's in jail its looking more and more likely that he will be the Republican nominee. Given that, I find Trump to be a better presidential option than the BOTUS.
May if Biden would assault women and spew racist rants, you'd like him better.
Former US general who served during Iraq on the treatment of Palestinian detainees being stripped and humiliated:
https://twitter.com/Charlie533080/status/1733402026220912646?t=pmXYWSNHsyQ5-IIL550IdQ&s=19
Quote from: Jockey on December 13, 2023, 05:19:31 PM
May if Biden would assault women and spew racist rants, you'd like him better.
There is absolutely nothing, ever, to like about the Buffoon, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 13, 2023, 03:16:50 PM
He's a smart guy who has developed the mother of all god complexes and is suffering from an extensive ongoing midlife crisis because after being surrounded by people who have not told him no in decades, the funny people aren't laughing at his jokes on his website and he hates that more than most things.
I can buy he's a genius when it comes to some things (or in my unimportant opinion rather, sharp acumen to driving tech forward, regulations be damned).
Smart people are also just as susceptible to crackpotism as the rest of us though. Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins won a Nobel Prize for their discovery of the double-helix structure of DNA and later led the Human Genome Project. But also veered into asserting that Black people are intellectually inferior to whites and attributing the difference to genetic factors.
Even those who are at the top of their field brilliant can also be truly woefully incurious and outright provably wrong in many other things. This extends to healthcare professionals, engineers, CEOs, dentists, etc. There has never been a truly all encompassing genius I'd venture to bet.
You're not wrong. Being a genius doesn't mean good person, it doesn't guarantee good judgement. And I'm sure many people with IQs of 145+ waste their gifts. But on the other hand the work done by geniuses can have a much greater impact on the world than the average Joe.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 05:46:04 PM
There is absolutely nothing, ever, to like about the Buffoon, hey?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/3d/fb/Nzzq7MkS_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/Nzzq7MkS)
Quote from: Jockey on December 13, 2023, 05:19:31 PM
May if Biden would assault women and spew racist rants, you'd like him better.
does sniffing hair, showering with your daughter and encouraging the little ones to stroke the hairs on his leg count? oh, and he and robert "kkk" byrd were good buds btw
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 13, 2023, 06:00:38 PM
does sniffing hair, showering with your daughter and encouraging the little ones to stroke the hairs on his leg count? oh, and he and robert "kkk" byrd were good buds btw
8 out of 10
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 03:05:14 PM
https://ts2.space/en/how-do-we-know-what-elon-musks-iq-is/#gsc.tab=0
Here's another one. Estimates abound, most commonly falling in the 155 range, well above the "genius" line.
But based on what, your "eye test", you're convinced his IQ is south of 145?
Want something that deserves a BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA? Your opinion, based on nothing but the fact that you don't like the guy.
lol. Want to buy my timeshare?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 02:09:41 PM
Its all relative. As you know, Trump is not my preference, but unless he's in jail its looking more and more likely that he will be the Republican nominee. Given that, I find Trump to be a better presidential option than the BOTUS.
Oh, I understand.
Even though you have said that antisemitism makes you sick and that you would never vote for any antisemite or anybody who supports antisemites ... you actually will happily do so.
Apparently, antisemitism doesn't make you THAT sick. Some antisemitism is A-OK if it's politically expedient for you.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 13, 2023, 03:16:50 PM
He's a smart guy who has developed the mother of all god complexes and is suffering from an extensive ongoing midlife crisis because after being surrounded by people who have not told him no in decades, the funny people aren't laughing at his jokes on his website and he hates that more than most things.
I can buy he's a genius when it comes to some things (or in my unimportant opinion rather, sharp acumen to driving tech forward, regulations be damned).
Smart people are also just as susceptible to crackpotism as the rest of us though. Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins won a Nobel Prize for their discovery of the double-helix structure of DNA and later led the Human Genome Project. But also veered into asserting that Black people are intellectually inferior to whites and attributing the difference to genetic factors.
Even those who are at the top of their field brilliant can also be truly woefully incurious and outright provably wrong in many other things. This extends to healthcare professionals, engineers, CEOs, dentists, etc. There has never been a truly all encompassing genius I'd venture to bet.
Well said. I've known Cal Tech engineers who were absolutely brilliant stone cold geniuses, but absolute buffoons about a number of things. One I wouldn't even trust to watch my dog due to questionable decision making.
I had another former coworker who graduated summa cum laude from Northwestern, top of their class at U of Chicago business school but was incredibly gullible and shared many similarities with everyone's annoying "news from Facebook" uncle. Incredible analytical mind for finance and business, seemingly lacking any analytical capabilities in other non work aspects.
Pretending Musk isn't extremely intelligent and/or a bumbling charlatan is purely a concoction of people who hate him and his beliefs/stances and is just a hard over correction to "actually this guy is NOT smart" which makes people feel better.
But I totally agree he's absolutely ZOOTED off the high of his own farts, surrounding by an impossibly large army of sycophants (especially on his beloved social media), and a disturbing knack for refusing to accept simple/reasonable explanations and needing to outsmart into conspiracy nonsense
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 13, 2023, 06:31:12 PM
Can we get back to war, please.
What war? This thread is for Bill Ackman tweets and accusations of antisemitism.
Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2023, 06:07:08 PM
Oh, I understand.
Even though you have said that antisemitism makes you sick and that you would never vote for any antisemite or anybody who supports antisemites ... you actually will happily do so.
Apparently, antisemitism doesn't make you THAT sick. Some antisemitism is A-OK if it's politically expedient for you.
So you think the Buffoon loves Jews? He's trying to straddle both sides of the fence not to piss off any potential voter. He doesn't give 2 chits about Israel or Jews in general, hey?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 13, 2023, 05:50:14 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/3d/fb/Nzzq7MkS_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/Nzzq7MkS)
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/31/62percent-of-americans-still-live-paycheck-to-paycheck-amid-inflation.html
Slow your roll
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 06:46:12 PM
So you think the Buffoon loves Jews? He's trying to straddle both sides of the fence not to piss off any potential voter. He doesn't give 2 chits about Israel or Jews in general, hey?
He's just a pawn
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=2878a3f2a_134ae51
Pretty sure the WSJ op-ed nailed it, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 07:27:49 PM
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=2878a3f2a_134ae51
Pretty sure the WSJ op-ed nailed it, hey?
Not really. It doesn't say she's just a pawn.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 06:46:12 PM
So you think the Buffoon loves Jews? He's trying to straddle both sides of the fence not to piss off any potential voter. He doesn't give 2 chits about Israel or Jews in general, hey?
Jews love him.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-biden-more-popular-in-israel-than-almost-anywhere-else-poll-shows/
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/16/1213406754/jewish-voters-biden-israel-hamas-war
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 07:27:49 PM
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=2878a3f2a_134ae51
Pretty sure the WSJ op-ed nailed it, hey?
Even the Wall Street Journal thinks the WSj opinion page is a disgrace.
More than 280 journalists, editors and other employees at The Wall Street Journal sent a letter to their publisher expressing concerns about misinformation in the paper's opinion section.
The letter says that "opinion's lack of fact-checking and transparency, and its apparent disregard for evidence, undermine our readers' trust and our ability to gain credibility with sources."https://thehill.com/homenews/media/508373-over-280-wall-street-journal-employees-raise-credibility-concerns-about/
Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2023, 07:37:01 PM
Jews love him.
Stings, doesn't it?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-biden-more-popular-in-israel-than-almost-anywhere-else-poll-shows/
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/16/1213406754/jewish-voters-biden-israel-hamas-war
Curious if those numbers would go down after Biden called Israeli bombing "indiscriminate", which they have vehemently denied.
Also, from the first link:Pew survey finds 87% of Israelis happy with their most important ally, though Biden not yet winning over as many Israelis as Trump and Obama did
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 13, 2023, 07:47:57 PM
Curious if those numbers would go down after Biden called Israeli bombing "indiscriminate", which they have vehemently denied.
Also, from the first link:Pew survey finds 87% of Israelis happy with their most important ally, though Biden not yet winning over as many Israelis as Trump and Obama did
Biden's rating in that poll was 68%. Trump and Obama peaked at 71%.
Seems a) pretty negligible and b) evidence that he's very popular in Israel.
I'd be more concerned with Joe saying something like this when he's the leader of a jewish population almost exactly the size of Israel.
"Were there no Israel, there would not be a Jew in the world who is safe."
https://www.thejc.com/news/usa/joe-biden-without-israel-jews-wouldnt-be-safe-anywhere-yoewdict
Really curious as to what he meant there because to imply the US is less safe than Israel is certainly something, just from a purely geopolitical standpoint.
Could have just been rambling but to imply the safety of Americans domestically is wholly dependent on a foreign country across an ocean is alarming rhetoric.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2023, 07:51:39 PM
Biden's rating in that poll was 68%. Trump and Obama peaked at 71%.
Seems a) pretty negligible and b) evidence that he's very popular in Israel.
How did the most virulent antisemite in the world ever have a 71% approval rating in Israel?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 06:46:12 PM
So you think the Buffoon loves Jews? He's trying to straddle both sides of the fence not to piss off any potential voter. He doesn't give 2 chits about Israel or Jews in general, hey?
Yes, I think Biden loves Jews.
He didn't excuse neo-Nazis who were chanting "Jews will not replace us." He doesn't climb into bed with Putin. He doesn't sell his soul to Tucker and MTG and QAnon. He didn't get praised by David Duke. He didn't tell an antisemitic mob to "stand back and stand by." He didn't use Hitler's language about his enemies. And he didn't break bread with an admitted Jew-hater who would like to wipe Jews off the face of the earth.
He also didn't foment a violent, cop-bashing coup attempt against his own country; didn't tell the Republican secretary of state from Georgia to "find" him votes; didn't have to shutter his university and charity because of rampant fraud; and other fun things ...
But I digress. We're talking about your hero's willingness to support and accept support from antisemites.
Something you said you would NEVER accept. You said it. Nobody here forced you to say it.
So if your BDS won't let you vote for Biden, vote third party or skip the election. Just stop pretending you're the Joseph McCarthy of antisemitism. Because if you were, your hero would be among the first to go.
But nice try.
I don't believe Trump is antisemitic. He fulfilled his campaign promise to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem, established the Abraham Accords, strangled Iran's oil exports, has Jewish grandchildren since his daughter married Kushner and converted to Judaism, and is one of the largest American Christian donors to Israel, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 14, 2023, 03:54:42 AM
I don't believe Trump is antisemitic. He fulfilled his campaign promise to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem, established the Abraham Accords, strangled Iran's oil exports, has Jewish grandchildren since his daughter married Kushner and converted to Judaism, and is one of the largest American Christian donors to Israel, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2023, 09:37:10 PM
Yes, I think Biden loves Jews.
He didn't excuse neo-Nazis who were chanting "Jews will not replace us." He doesn't climb into bed with Putin. He doesn't sell his soul to Tucker and MTG and QAnon. He didn't get praised by David Duke. He didn't tell an antisemitic mob to "stand back and stand by." He didn't use Hitler's language about his enemies. And he didn't break bread with an admitted Jew-hater who would like to wipe Jews off the face of the earth.
He also didn't foment a violent, cop-bashing coup attempt against his own country; didn't tell the Republican secretary of state from Georgia to "find" him votes; didn't have to shutter his university and charity because of rampant fraud; and other fun things ...
But I digress. We're talking about your hero's willingness to support and accept support from antisemites.
Something you said you would NEVER accept. You said it. Nobody here forced you to say it.
So if your BDS won't let you vote for Biden, vote third party or skip the election. Just stop pretending you're the Joseph McCarthy of antisemitism. Because if you were, your hero would be among the first to go.
But nice try.
I thought there was no politics here. I guess I was wrong.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 13, 2023, 07:53:49 PM
I'd be more concerned with Joe saying something like this when he's the leader of a jewish population almost exactly the size of Israel.
"Were there no Israel, there would not be a Jew in the world who is safe."
https://www.thejc.com/news/usa/joe-biden-without-israel-jews-wouldnt-be-safe-anywhere-yoewdict
Really curious as to what he meant there because to imply the US is less safe than Israel is certainly something, just from a purely geopolitical standpoint.
Could have just been rambling but to imply the safety of Americans domestically is wholly dependent on a foreign country across an ocean is alarming rhetoric.
Well, he's Joe Biden, so he probably wasn't thinking, as usual.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2023, 09:01:55 PM
How did the most virulent antisemite in the world ever have a 71% approval rating in Israel?
Because he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 14, 2023, 05:07:52 AM
I thought there was no politics here. I guess I was wrong.
"Biden hates Jews!" "Well, yeah, so Trump hates Jews, too!" "Yeah, well, Biden is worse, so I'm voting for Trump!" "Yeah, well, Trump is actually worse, so I'm voting for Biden!" Good grief, I'm taking your stance now MU69. What a disgrace.
The war is a disgrace, Hamas is abhorrent, and the Jewish response is now, in my opinion, crossed into beyond the original intent. The Hamas act on 10/7 (among countless others) was disgusting. The Jewish response was supported. Now, we are seeing how every opportunist can take advantage of a heartbreaking humanitarian crisis and disgusting terrorism for their benefit. Once again, the people lose.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 14, 2023, 03:54:42 AM
I don't believe Trump is antisemitic. He fulfilled his campaign promise to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem, established the Abraham Accords, strangled Iran's oil exports, has Jewish grandchildren since his daughter married Kushner and converted to Judaism, and is one of the largest American Christian donors to Israel, hey?
Trump will be pro-Israel when it benefits Trump.
Trump will play footsie with antisemitic bigots when it benefits Trump.
Trump will be racist when it benefits Trump.
Trump will kiss up to BLM - as he recently did - when it benefits Trump.
Trump will be loyal to those around him when it benefits Trump.
Trump will throw allies and supporters under the bus when it benefits Trump.
Trump has no principles, beliefs or values beyond doing what he believes is in the best interests of himself and enhancing his wealth and power. I don't think he's antisemitic because that would require him to actually believe in something. Anyone who believes anything different at this point is a maroon.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2023, 09:05:00 AM
Trump will be pro-Israel when it benefits Trump.
Trump will play footsie with antisemitic bigots when it benefits Trump.
Trump will be racist when it benefits Trump.
Trump will kiss up to BLM - as he recently did - when it benefits Trump.
Trump will be loyal to those around him when it benefits Trump.
Trump will throw allies and supporters under the bus when it benefits Trump.
Trump has no principles, beliefs or values beyond doing what he believes is in the best interests of himself and enhancing his wealth and power. I don't think he's antisemitic because that would require him to actually believe in something. Anyone who believes anything different at this point is a maroon.
Good synopsis.
The one thing we know about the 91-felony Criminal Defendant is that he accepts and solicits support from antisemites. Some who bend the knee to him say that doesn't make him an antisemite. But one here who bends the knee to the disgraced former president said he would
never vote for a candidate who
supports antisemitism -- and this felonious candidate obviously does that at every turn. Very fine people David Duke and Nick Fuentes LOVE him!
Trump is no different than any other politician including the Buffoon. We have no statesmen. They are all attracted to politics for personal gain and power that's why there are politicians who have had 55 year careers in government and counting. At least Trump did not take a salary while in office.
As for the upcoming election, which btw, is critically important going forward, it may come down to two old farts who have no business trying to run this country. One has no moral compass and literally can't find his way off a stage without help and the other will sit in the grey bar hotel, come hell or high water, if the dems are granted their wish, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 14, 2023, 09:53:52 AM
Trump is no different than any other politician including the Buffoon. We have no statesmen. They are all attracted to politics for personal gain and power that's why there are politicians who have had 55 year careers in government and counting. At least Trump did not take a salary while in office.
As for the upcoming election, which btw, is critically important going forward, it may come down to two old farts who have no business trying to run this country. One has no moral compass and literally can't find his way off a stage without help and the other will sit in the grey bar hotel, come hell or high water, if the dems are granted their wish, hey?
The funniest part is you think Trump has a moral compass.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 14, 2023, 09:57:04 AM
The funniest part is you think Trump has a moral compass.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/WRvCa3rZlSf0waGIx8/200w.webp?cid=ecf05e47wvfx0u8v9lqrpqe8s29hv6uvszbo20rwt5udt3nb&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.webp&ct=g)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 14, 2023, 09:53:52 AM
Trump is no different than any other politician ...
Stopped here, because this is objectively false, and I'm sorry if you really believe this.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2023, 10:15:23 AM
Stopped here, because this is objectively false, and I'm sorry if you really believe this.
It's called copium
He fleeced taxpayers over and over and over again, forcing the Secret Service and the rest of his entourage to pay premium rates to stay at Mar-A-Lago and his other properties. Never in the history of our great democratic republic had a president personally reaped financial benefits - millions and millions of dollars - in this way.
So yeah ... he conned his cultists into thinking he didn't take a "salary." What rubes.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 14, 2023, 09:57:04 AM
The funniest part is you think Trump has a moral compass.
I thought the funniest part was about him not taking a salary.
Well, paying the BOTUS is like pissin' in da ocean. The check might as well be made out ta B.O., hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 14, 2023, 12:35:15 PM
Well, paying the BOTUS is like pissin' in da ocean. The check might as well be made out ta B.O., hey?
4QQver
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 14, 2023, 12:35:15 PM
Well, paying the BOTUS is like pissin' in da ocean. The check might as well be made out ta B.O., hey?
There it is
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2023, 09:05:00 AM
Trump will be pro-Israel when it benefits Trump.
Trump will play footsie with antisemitic bigots when it benefits Trump.
Trump will be racist when it benefits Trump.
Trump will kiss up to BLM - as he recently did - when it benefits Trump.
Trump will be loyal to those around him when it benefits Trump.
Trump will throw allies and supporters under the bus when it benefits Trump.
Trump has no principles, beliefs or values beyond doing what he believes is in the best interests of himself and enhancing his wealth and power. I don't think he's antisemitic because that would require him to actually believe in something. Anyone who believes anything different at this point is a maroon.
I agree 100%. And if you substitute "Biden" for "Trump" I'd still agree.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2023, 12:55:15 PM
I agree 100%. And if you substitute "Biden" for "Trump" I'd still agree.
Yeah, its not exactly the same here.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 14, 2023, 12:26:09 PM
I thought the funniest part was about him not taking a salary.
Not taking 400k a year when claiming to be a multi billionaire anyway is actually a gesture that we should all base our votes on. Big difference maker
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
There it is
(https://i5.walmartimages.com/seo/Hagen-Dogit-Silent-Dog-Whistle-Chrome-Plated_a5769250-e73a-4869-9d3e-af83cb51e3d7_1.78669333a5c01f71649243c7376f6e66.jpeg)
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 08, 2023, 04:44:54 PM
Yes. I'm glad you're figuring this out, finally. The entire reason that the state of Israel isn't well liked isn't because they're Jewish. It's because the country was created at the peril of the existing population. Muslims and Jewish people lived side by side peacefully for hundreds of years. There is nothing inherently anti-Judaism about Islam.
Why were Hamas terrorists arrested today in Germany and Denmark?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 14, 2023, 02:07:36 PM
Why were Hamas terrorists arrested today in Germany and Denmark?
Because they were planning an antisemitic terror plot? Is this some sort of crappy attempt gotcha or do think that Hamas represents Islam in totality?
Quote from: MuggsyB on December 14, 2023, 02:07:36 PM
Why were Hamas terrorists arrested today in Germany and Denmark?
After meeting with Putin, they were spreading out.
Quality coordinated police work.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 14, 2023, 02:11:16 PM
Because they were planning an antisemitic terror plot? Is this some sort of crappy attempt gotcha or do think that Hamas represents Islam in totality?
His point stands. I said that Hamas wasn't attacking Jewish people worldwide and instead focused on Israel.
I'll wait for more details regarding the arrests today, but at first blush there seems to have been a plan to acquire weapons and transport them to Berlin.
Certainly concerning.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 14, 2023, 02:36:14 PM
His point stands. I said that Hamas wasn't attacking Jewish people worldwide and instead focused on Israel.
I'll wait for more details regarding the arrests today, but at first blush there seems to have been a plan to acquire weapons and transport them to Berlin.
Certainly concerning.
I don't know if it's true or not but there was also apparently an Iranian led terror plot against Jews in Cyprus a few days ago.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 14, 2023, 02:36:14 PM
His point stands. I said that Hamas wasn't attacking Jewish people worldwide and instead focused on Israel.
I'll wait for more details regarding the arrests today, but at first blush there seems to have been a plan to acquire weapons and transport them to Berlin.
Certainly concerning.
The latest iteration of Hamas is just ISIS regurgitated. Strictly terror & murder for terror's sake. The more brutal they are, the happier they are. No larger point.
Right now for some ungodly reason, they are seen as sympathetic in many parts of the world. If they succeed in committing a large terrorist act in Europe, they lose that sympathy. Thousands more will die in Gaza as the West will stop expressing their concern over Israel's actions. It will be the people that Hamas pretends to care about that will bear an even heavier burden..
Quote from: Jockey on December 14, 2023, 03:49:37 PM
The latest iteration of Hamas is just ISIS regurgitated. Strictly terror & murder for terror's sake. The more brutal they are, the happier they are. No larger point.
Right now for some ungodly reason, they are seen as sympathetic in many parts of the world. If they succeed in committing a large terrorist act in Europe, they lose that sympathy. Thousands more will die in Gaza as the West will stop expressing their concern over Israel's actions. It will be the people that Hamas pretends to care about that will bear an even heavier burden..
And that's similar to what struck me as well.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 14, 2023, 02:36:14 PM
His point stands. I said that Hamas wasn't attacking Jewish people worldwide and instead focused on Israel.
I'll wait for more details regarding the arrests today, but at first blush there seems to have been a plan to acquire weapons and transport them to Berlin.
Certainly concerning.
Sorry, I didn't read the entire exchange and assumed it was the usual phobia. My bad
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2023, 11:52:29 AM
If Gay were not what she is, she'd be drop kicked half way to Antartica by now, hey?
Relevant to your "tastes"
https://x.com/benshapiro/status/1735386080084468008?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Quote from: Jockey on December 14, 2023, 03:49:37 PM
Thousands more will die in Gaza as the West will stop expressing their concern over Israel's actions. It will be the people that Hamas pretends to care about that will bear an even heavier burden..
Hide behind the innocents, use their inevitable deaths as propaganda for the "cause". Regrettably, plenty of people naive enough to fall for it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2023, 07:16:54 PM
Hide behind the innocents, use their inevitable deaths as propaganda for the "cause". Regrettably, plenty of people naive enough to fall for it.
I just don't get what their plan is at this point. Fundraising for their sister organizations? Obliteration?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 14, 2023, 07:51:03 PM
I just don't get what their plan is at this point. Fundraising for their sister organizations? Obliteration?
Kill people.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israels-failed-bombing-campaign-gaza
Bombing a population into submission or in attempt to turn on ruling group does not work.
https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information
"Inside the Pro-Israel Information War
Israeli gov-led Zoom calls, WhatsApp chat logs, and other docs provide a window into the massive effort to shape online discourse and silence pro-Palestinian voices."
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 15, 2023, 10:29:56 AM
https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information
"Inside the Pro-Israel Information War
Israeli gov-led Zoom calls, WhatsApp chat logs, and other docs provide a window into the massive effort to shape online discourse and silence pro-Palestinian voices."
Is this unique to any nation at war? Russia is certainly doing this with regards to Ukraine and vice versa.
Part of waging war is propaganda, at home and abroad
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2023, 07:16:54 PM
Hide behind the innocents, use their inevitable deaths as propaganda for the "cause". Regrettably, plenty of people naive enough to fall for it.
what their "plan" is?? well, there is this so called islamic scholar in michigan calling for the normalization of calls for jihad; to embrace violent jihad yup, michigan usa, freedom of speech and religion. other than that, talk is cheap eyn'a?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 15, 2023, 11:04:10 AM
what their "plan" is?? well, there is this so called islamic scholar in michigan calling for the normalization of calls for jihad; to embrace violent jihad yup, michigan usa, freedom of speech and religion. other than that, talk is cheap eyn'a?
Don't you mean that jihad thingy?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 15, 2023, 11:04:10 AM
what their "plan" is?? well, there is this so called islamic scholar in michigan calling for the normalization of calls for jihad; to embrace violent jihad yup, michigan usa, freedom of speech and religion. other than that, talk is cheap eyn'a?
9 out of 10
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 10, 2023, 06:09:16 AM
"Proverbial stock prices?" LOL. What a f*cking stupid analogy.
They will be fine in that they will have the same student demand, have the same basis number of students and the same basic number of employees that they usually have. And they will have dimwits like yourself thinking they are somehow representative of American higher education overall.
They will all be just fine. It's but a bump in their road.
Five days later ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-15/harvard-college-sees-early-applications-drop-17-from-last-year
Harvard College received 17% fewer applications for early admission from high school seniors this year, the lowest total in four years, according to the school's website.
The drop comes after incidents of antisemitism on campus in the wake of the Oct. 7 attack on Israel by Hamas. Applications were due Nov. 1, before university President Claudine Gay gave widely derided testimony on antisemitism and free speech at a congressional hearing Dec. 5.
Harvard received 7,921 applications this year for non-binding early admissions, compared with 9,553 last year.
Modern day McCarthyism and billionaire cancel culture is winning!
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 15, 2023, 11:45:38 PM
Five days later ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-15/harvard-college-sees-early-applications-drop-17-from-last-year
Harvard College received 17% fewer applications for early admission from high school seniors this year, the lowest total in four years, according to the school's website.
The drop comes after incidents of antisemitism on campus in the wake of the Oct. 7 attack on Israel by Hamas. Applications were due Nov. 1, before university President Claudine Gay gave widely derided testimony on antisemitism and free speech at a congressional hearing Dec. 5.
Harvard received 7,921 applications this year for non-binding early admissions, compared with 9,553 last year.
Yeah the admit rate for early admits skyrocketed from 7.5% to 8.7%. They clearly are suffering. ::)
https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2023/12/harvard-class-of-2028-early-admissions-rate
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 16, 2023, 05:39:20 AM
Yeah the admit rate for early admits skyrocketed from 7.5% to 8.7%. They clearly are suffering. ::)
https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2023/12/harvard-class-of-2028-early-admissions-rate
The suffering comes in other ways.
Harvard president's handling of antisemitism has cost school more than $1 billion
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/harvard-presidents-handling-antisemitism-cost-school-1-billion-ackman
The game has changed
December 14, 2023
A New Playbook for College Donors: Power Politics
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/us/universities-donors-penn-harvard.html
Donations to U.S. universities reached $59.5 billion last year, and they come increasingly from a smaller group of wealthy donors. Many of them expect their money to buy a voice in university affairs.
Claudine Gay attends a lighting ceremony, and they must take it down every night so it does not get vandalized.
Why doesn't Gay speak out against this and post security overnight to signal her opposition to this kind of violence?
The same thing happened in Germany and Poland in the mid-to-late 1930s. How did that end? (Oh wait, 20% of people under 30 believe nothing happened after that.)
So, yes, it does depend on the context.
----
December 15, 2023
Harvard Chabad asked to hide hanukkiah due to fears of vandalism
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-778151
Harvard President Claudine Gay took part in a lighting of the hanukkiah on campus this week.
The Chabad House at Harvard University has consistently been asked by the university to hide the hanukkiah it lights on campus on each night of Hanukkah due to fears of vandalism, Rabbi Hirschy Zarchi, the rabbi of the Chabad House, said in an address on Wednesday night.
And why would they think it will be vandalized?
December 5, 2023
Hanukkah menorah toppled near Harvard University
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/hanukkah-menorah-toppled-near-harvard-university-573548
The menorah is sponsored by Chabad at Harvard with permission of the city of Cambridge, according to Rabbi Hirschy Zarchi, the college Chabad's director
Two months ago, when Ackman suggested he would not hire students who were in one of the clubs from Harvard that signed a letter blaming Israel for the October 7 attack on Israel, this was one person changing his firm's policy toward a specific group of students relating to one specific instance.
Now ... all students at Harvard are being made to pay the price of antisemitism and keeping Claudine Gay.
Do you think this stops with one random law firm? Let's wait another two months after every Jewish member of a prestigious Law firm is asked why they are still recruiting at Harvard if it means they endorse Harvard's antisemitism and Claudine Gay. Then, every financial firm will ask its Jewish managing directors the same thing about recruiting at Harvard Business School. Then, every firm will be asked about recruiting undergraduates.
----
December 14, 2023
Law firm Edelson boycotts Harvard recruiting events amid antisemitism controversy
https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/law-firm-edelson-boycotts-harvard-recruiting-events-amid-antisemitism-2023-12-14/
Plaintiffs' firm Edelson PC on Thursday said it is pulling out of upcoming recruiting events at Harvard Law School in protest of Harvard University President Claudine Gay's Congressional testimony last week regarding campus antisemitism.
The law firm told Harvard Law's career services office in a letter that it won't participate in its Spring Interview Program. That event, where employers interview law students on campus, begins Jan. 29. The firm will also skip Harvard's larger on-campus interviewing event in August, which is when Edelson and major corporate law firms hire the bulk of their summer associates, firm founder Jay Edelson told Reuters in an interview.
"This is not about Harvard law students," Edelson said. "This is about the leadership of Harvard and how much of a megaphone it has on the world stage. They should use that megaphone responsibly.
lol. This hasn't cost Harvard $1B. Such nonsense.
Culture war? What culture.war?
I thought cancel culture was a bad thing?
Horrific story in Gaza, where Israeli military killed 3 Israeli hostages - even though the hostages were waving a white flag.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/16/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20231216&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=152779&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-deaths-highlight-the-dire-risks-faced-by-the-remaining-hostages
The three Israeli hostages who were shot and killed by Israeli forces in Gaza on Friday were bearing a makeshift white flag, the military said on Saturday, asserting that the soldiers had violated the military's rules of engagement.
The Israeli military announced the accidental killings on Friday, hours after saying it had recovered the bodies of three other Israeli hostages in Gaza. The deaths underscore the continuing risks for the more than 120 people who Israel says remain in captivity after being kidnapped during the Hamas attack on Israel on Oct. 7.
In a written statement sent to The New York Times, describing the results of a preliminary inquiry, the Israeli military said its soldiers had been operating in Shejaiya, an area of Gaza City that has seen intense fighting. The soldiers were on alert for attempts by Hamas to ambush Israeli forces, possibly in civilian clothes, the military said.
On Friday, the three hostages emerged, shirtless, from a building tens of yards away from the Israeli soldiers, bearing a stick with a white cloth, the military said in a preliminary investigation. One of the soldiers, believing they posed a threat, opened fire on the three hostages, killing two of them and wounding the third, the early investigation found.
The third fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was shot and killed, the military statement said.
In a briefing with reporters, an Israeli military official called the incident a violation of the military's regulations. The hostages may have escaped or been abandoned by their captors, the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity under military protocol.
Sorry for delivering that sad news on the war. Now feel free to resume the discussion about elite U.S. colleges, because they really affect what's going on in Israel.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 08:12:06 AM
The suffering comes in other ways.
Harvard president's handling of antisemitism has cost school more than $1 billion
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/harvard-presidents-handling-antisemitism-cost-school-1-billion-ackman
The game has changed
December 14, 2023
A New Playbook for College Donors: Power Politics
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/us/universities-donors-penn-harvard.html
Donations to U.S. universities reached $59.5 billion last year, and they come increasingly from a smaller group of wealthy donors. Many of them expect their money to buy a voice in university affairs.
She should stay on as long as Tucker Carlson and Elon Musk have platforms. If they allow anti-semitism to have a voice on their platforms, why are we firing university presidents.
X is losing money by the millions because of the virulent anti-semitism espoused on the platform and yet, Elon is allowed to go unchecked and peddle in conspiracy theories and promote anti-semites.
It's clear X is doomed and by association, Tesla is doomed. Sad
https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musk-curses-out-advertisers-who-left-x-over-antisemitic-content-2023-11-29/
Guess Space-X is a goner also.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 16, 2023, 10:32:57 AM
https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musk-curses-out-advertisers-who-left-x-over-antisemitic-content-2023-11-29/
Guess Space-X is a goner also.
Good. My only worry is, he's one of the protected classes
(https://images2.imgbox.com/3e/d6/jnVSOkPP_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/jnVSOkPP)
But Douchey doesn't call out Musk because he "doesn't care about Musk", and 4Qver doesn't call him out because he is a raging hyporcrite Musk is just a pawn.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 16, 2023, 08:59:38 AM
lol. This hasn't cost Harvard $1B. Such nonsense.
Oh, this will end up costing them $billions. Their entire culture has been changed. Should have kicked Gay to the curb for plagiarism at the very least. Harvard will not be the same, hey?
#dependsonthecontext
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 16, 2023, 11:09:37 AM
Oh, this will end up costing them $billions. Their entire culture has been changed. Should have kicked Gay to the curb for plagiarism at the very least. Harvard will not be the same, hey?
#dependsonthecontext
Neither will X, Tesla and SpaceX
#doomed
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/14/us/jewish-families-elite-schools-antisemitism/index.html
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 16, 2023, 11:40:15 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/14/us/jewish-families-elite-schools-antisemitism/index.html
Penn receives about 40,000 applicants a year, and rejects about 36,000 of them
Losing out on the chance to reject Anna from Atlanta isn't the devastating setback you wish it were.
Ya never know when an Anna may develop a vaccine that actually prevents covid or donates $100 mil to Harvard. As I said Harvard's culture has changed with its failure to chit can Gay, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 16, 2023, 11:51:48 AM
Ya never know when an Anna may develop a vaccine that actually prevents covid or donates $100 mil to Harvard. As I said Harvard's culture has changed with its failure to chit can Gay, hey?
Sure, Jan
https://forward.com/fast-forward/566706/vivek-ramaswamy-alex-jones-israel-hamas-gop-2024/?amp=1
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 16, 2023, 11:09:37 AM
Oh, this will end up costing them $billions. Their entire culture has been changed. Should have kicked Gay to the curb for plagiarism at the very least. Harvard will not be the same, hey?
#dependsonthecontext
Why was the plagiarism stuff only brought to significant light now? Wasn't that from some time ago and has been public knowledge for some time?
Regardless, she should have been terminated immediately following verification of her plagiarism. Shame on Harvard, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 16, 2023, 12:10:08 PM
Regardless, she should have been terminated immediately following verification of her plagiarism. Shame on Harvard, aina?
Once she's fired, that will change the direction of the war. That and President Biden's administration bypassing congress to get Israel needed weapons
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2023, 12:16:43 PM
Once she's fired, that will change the direction of the war. That and President Biden's administration bypassing congress to get Israel needed weapons
Also, antisemitism will end. At least the non-pawn kind.
Ivy institutions are being affected, and things will change. Will they suffer, of course, they are suffering. Will it spell doom, I don't think so.
My question to H2O and 4E is do you think this backlash against the Harvard's of higher education will last? Is it our normal cycle where we all get outraged then is back to business as usual? Will Ackman actually not hire Harvard grads? For how long?
I fear a lot is this is political theater and opportunistic grandstanding where only the elite gain and the people again lose. Like we see when we proclaim generalities about Israelis or Jews and Palestinians or Muslims, we will see these loud mouths initially generalize an entire university or student body only to walk it back when rationality and reasonability return.
Do we actually want the loudest, richest, elitist white men determining anything? Especially what is taught at and who is in charge of our universities. I admit, I am more of a free speech absolutist than not (I know that statement in itself is a mess, but I've never been one to be 100% on much, so I have to leave room for discussion) and am really disappointed that Magill resigned and that Gay and Kornbluth were put in a no win situation. While I want them to say anything they'd like and allow the saying of anything on their campuses, I also really don't care much what the president of an elite university thinks about outside their school. They are not a bastion of wisdom any more than any of us are. I digress.
Someone I admired once told me, he who talks most ends up the biggest ass. I fear that we are saying a lot of angry, fearful, pointed, anti (enter group here) rhetoric that is not in the least helpful, because we like to say what we want and also try to stifle others from saying what they want.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 16, 2023, 11:09:37 AM
Oh, this will end up costing them $billions. Their entire culture has been changed. Should have kicked Gay to the curb for plagiarism at the very least. Harvard will not be the same, hey?
#dependsonthecontext
You wish. But nope.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on December 16, 2023, 12:25:58 PM
I fear a lot is this is political theater and opportunistic grandstanding where only the elite gain and the people again lose. Like we see when we proclaim generalities about Israelis or Jews and Palestinians or Muslims, we will see these loud mouths initially generalize an entire university or student body only to walk it back when rationality and reasonability return.
Do we actually want the loudest, richest, elitist white men determining anything?
Yes they absolutely want that. Because "rich" and "looks like me"= must know better than others, is a common proud American sentiment these days despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
You're right though in that proclaiming sweeping generalities about a group of people is at best misguided and at worst bloodthirsty and homicidal. Nodding and excusing a person seeking out a random Israeli teenager and firing a gun at them because their leader is an incoherent self serving war monger is the same high level sentiment as shrugging off a nurse getting sniped in the window of a hospital in Gaza because she had the gall to stick around and care for those in need.
If we assume the least nefarious thought process, it's anti-intellectual culturally fearful laziness. As I've said before, a vast majority of the people in this world just want the same safe daily lives and are kind and caring individuals that we share a significant amount in common with.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 08:44:38 AM
Two months ago, when Ackman suggested he would not hire students who were in one of the clubs from Harvard that signed a letter blaming Israel for the October 7 attack on Israel, this was one person changing his firm's policy toward a specific group of students relating to one specific instance.
Now ... all students at Harvard are being made to pay the price of antisemitism and keeping Claudine Gay.
Do you think this stops with one random law firm? Let's wait another two months after every Jewish member of a prestigious Law firm is asked why they are still recruiting at Harvard if it means they endorse Harvard's antisemitism and Claudine Gay. Then, every financial firm will ask its Jewish managing directors the same thing about recruiting at Harvard Business School. Then, every firm will be asked about recruiting undergraduates.
----
December 14, 2023
Law firm Edelson boycotts Harvard recruiting events amid antisemitism controversy
https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/law-firm-edelson-boycotts-harvard-recruiting-events-amid-antisemitism-2023-12-14/
Plaintiffs' firm Edelson PC on Thursday said it is pulling out of upcoming recruiting events at Harvard Law School in protest of Harvard University President Claudine Gay's Congressional testimony last week regarding campus antisemitism.
The law firm told Harvard Law's career services office in a letter that it won't participate in its Spring Interview Program. That event, where employers interview law students on campus, begins Jan. 29. The firm will also skip Harvard's larger on-campus interviewing event in August, which is when Edelson and major corporate law firms hire the bulk of their summer associates, firm founder Jay Edelson told Reuters in an interview.
"This is not about Harvard law students," Edelson said. "This is about the leadership of Harvard and how much of a megaphone it has on the world stage. They should use that megaphone responsibly.
Pretty much, yes. Unless you think that the white shoe law firms are gonna come knocking on Marquette's door to fill their prestigious ranks because of a disagreement about free speech on Ivy League campuses. I would love it, and it's probably not a bad thing as Marquette graduates some very talented lawyers, but it aint gonna happen and we both know it.
By the way, if it did happen, how long would it take for someone to say, "yeah, but didn't they fire a professor a few years back that was tenured. Wasn't the about academic freedom? Let's hire from DePaul instead." Laughable.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 16, 2023, 12:58:45 PM
As I've said before, a vast majority of the people in this world just want the same safe daily lives and are kind and caring individuals that we share a significant amount in common with.
Couldn't agree more
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2023, 12:44:12 PM
Wishcasting because educated people scare them
Yep. Musk scares the sh!t out of them. And his credentials are real, not based on stealing someone else's ideas.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2023, 02:56:00 PM
Yep. Musk scares the sh!t out of them. And his credentials are real, not based on stealing someone else's ideas.
Yeah, Elon's ideas are all his own.
lol.
Yeah its clear that Lenny's has a weird thing for Elon.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2023, 02:56:00 PM
Yep. Musk scares the sh!t out of them. And his credentials are real, not based on stealing someone else's ideas.
Musk does scare me. All anti-semites do
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2023, 12:44:12 PM
Wishcasting because educated people scare them
And black women with power
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2023, 02:56:00 PM
Yep. Musk scares the sh!t out of them. And his credentials are real, not based on stealing someone else's ideas.
This is irony right?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 16, 2023, 02:56:00 PM
Yep. Musk scares the sh!t out of them. And his credentials are real, not based on stealing someone else's ideas.
More like nauseates me at this point. Antisemitic comments (which I guess are OK if you are rightwing), racist and homophobic comments, amplifying conspiracy crap like Pizzagate. It's his platform and he gets to do what he wants, but we also get to judge him for platforming living sh!t like Jones, Ramaswamy, and rapist Andrew Tate.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on December 16, 2023, 12:25:58 PM
Ivy institutions are being affected, and things will change. Will they suffer, of course, they are suffering. Will it spell doom, I don't think so.
My question to H2O and 4E is do you think this backlash against the Harvard's of higher education will last? Is it our normal cycle where we all get outraged then is back to business as usual? Will Ackman actually not hire Harvard grads? For how long?
I fear a lot is this is political theater and opportunistic grandstanding where only the elite gain and the people again lose. Like we see when we proclaim generalities about Israelis or Jews and Palestinians or Muslims, we will see these loud mouths initially generalize an entire university or student body only to walk it back when rationality and reasonability return.
Do we actually want the loudest, richest, elitist white men determining anything? Especially what is taught at and who is in charge of our universities. I admit, I am more of a free speech absolutist than not (I know that statement in itself is a mess, but I've never been one to be 100% on much, so I have to leave room for discussion) and am really disappointed that Magill resigned and that Gay and Kornbluth were put in a no win situation. While I want them to say anything they'd like and allow the saying of anything on their campuses, I also really don't care much what the president of an elite university thinks about outside their school. They are not a bastion of wisdom any more than any of us are. I digress.
Someone I admired once told me, he who talks most ends up the biggest ass. I fear that we are saying a lot of angry, fearful, pointed, anti (enter group here) rhetoric that is not in the least helpful, because we like to say what we want and also try to stifle others from saying what they want.
Of course, they will all come back after institutional-wide changes, including personnel and rules.
They are leaving now to force that change.
Question to you: do you think if they keep harassing Jewish students and vandalizing Jewish symbols like the menora next year and the year after that, everyone will just accept that as a fact of life at Harvard? And Ackman and everyone will just give up?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 16, 2023, 12:10:08 PM
Regardless, she should have been terminated immediately following verification of her plagiarism. Shame on Harvard, aina?
Carol Swain is African American and publishes on the same topics that Claudine Gay publishes on. Claudine Gay lifted her quotes without attribution.
'I Am Seething:' Carol Swain Blasts Academic Fraud by Harvard President Claudine Gay, Calls Out the Harvard Board for Scandal's Coverup
https://tennesseestar.com/education/i-am-seething-carol-swain-blasts-academic-fraud-by-harvard-president-claudine-gay-calls-out-the-harvard-board-for-scandals-coverup/tennessee-star-staff/2023/12/12/
A fiery Swain expressed her anger over Harvard's apparent attempt to redefine plagiarism to protect its DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) image, stating that despite their best efforts, the university doesn't get to decide what constitutes plagiarism. She emphasized that Harvard's reputation has suffered tremendously as a result.
Swain detailed how her own acclaimed research was allegedly plagiarized by Gay, and pointed out that this lack of citation damages academia as a whole by undermining the work of students and researchers. Swain's stance has resonated with many who believe that Harvard's decision reflects a double standard.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2023, 03:11:04 PM
Musk does scare me. All anti-semites do
Dylan Mulvaney/Bud Light = Elon/X
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 05:21:29 PM
Of course, they will all come back after institutional-wide changes, including personnel and rules.
They are leaving now to force that change.
Question to you: do you think if they keep harassing Jewish students and vandalizing Jewish symbols like the menora next year and the year after that, everyone will just accept that as a fact of life at Harvard? And Ackman and everyone will just give up?
I hope not, that shouldn't be accepted as "life at Harvard" or anywhere for that matter.
I don't think Ackman is affecting things in a wholly positive way, and I don't think he should be able to bully people/institutions to change. His views are not the be all end all, no one's are, and I would prefer less billionaire involvement in our higher education system, likely a pipe dream. What we are seeing is what we have always known, money dictates what our higher education system looks like. Now we know it's more than just what the physical campus looks like with names on buildings, it's controlling the entire culture. That is terrifying.
I do not want people to give up.
https://x.com/carolmswain/status/1735833763278434535?s=20
Dr. Carol M. Swain
@carolmswain
I don't know what to make of the scores of black and white professors who have either redefined plagiarism or stated that Gay's misappropriation of their work is fine and dandy with them. Some of the apologists for plagiarism are prominent black professors who have produced excellent work.
The Washington Post and a few other outlets are helping plant the idea that it is racist to seek the resignation of Harvard's first black president. Is anyone else thinking of the long term damage to the educational process that is occurring? It will impact secondary school educators as well as higher education ranks. We are using #DEI and race to set a new low.
#ClaudineGay #Harvarduiversity #HarvardCrimson @HarvardU @TPPF @Heritage #HigherEd #racism #Plagiarism_Is_a_Red_Line
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 05:30:04 PM
Dylan Mulvaney/Bud Light = Elon/X
Does Dylan Mulvaney promote anti-semites and anti-semitism?
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on December 16, 2023, 05:32:48 PM
I hope not, that shouldn't be accepted as "life at Harvard" or anywhere for that matter.
I don't think Ackman is affecting things in a wholly positive way, and I don't think he should be able to bully people/institutions to change. His views are not the be all end all, no one's are, and I would prefer less billionaire involvement in our higher education system, likely a pipe dream. What we are seeing is what we have always known, money dictates what our higher education system looks like. Now we know it's more than just what the physical campus looks like with names on buildings, it's controlling the entire culture. That is terrifying.
I do not want people to give up.
It
used to be the ultimate vanity project to put your name on a building or an entire school.
April 23, 2023
Hedge Fund CEO Ken Griffin '89 Makes $300M Donation to FAS, Harvard to Rename GSAS in His Honor
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/4/11/gsas-renamed-ken-griffin/
Billionaire hedge fund CEO and Republican megadonor Kenneth C. Griffin '89 donated $300 million to Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences, the University announced Tuesday morning.
Harvard will rename the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences after Griffin, who has now given more than half a billion dollars to the University.
---
But now, as a mega-donor, you're asked to account for all the university's policies and decisions, which makes these billionaires
very uncomfortable. They want accolades, not questions about antisemitism and DEI, because they gave money to an elite school where the Jewish students are being terrorized.
So, money is now coming with more strings attached than ever. Those strings go directly to how the school is run.
If you don't like it, find your money elsewhere ... or raise tuition.
The game has changed, probably for everyone ... and you can thank Harvard for this change.
December 14, 2023
A New Playbook for College Donors: Power Politics
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/us/universities-donors-penn-harvard.html
Donations to U.S. universities reached $59.5 billion last year, and they come increasingly from a smaller group of wealthy donors. Many of them expect their money to buy a voice in university affairs.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2023, 03:11:04 PM
Musk does scare me. All anti-semites do
Seriously, Unk ... why won't these folks condemn Elon Musk's antisemitism? He is more powerful than any university president, more powerful than most politicians, and sure as hell more powerful than any of us Scoopers.
Musk endorses antisemite twits, lets antisemites (and racists and conspiracy theorists and criminals) take over his cesspool of a social platform, touts antisemite politicians.
But yes, some 20-year-old college kid, some minor politician or a few Scoopers ... those are your threats to Judaism.
I mean, I get that politics colors things for lots of us, but I have to say I don't get this. It would be so easy to say, "I think Musk is brilliant, but I am sickened by his antisemitism." But they can't say it.
The guy's an effen antisemite. But hey, he's rich and powerful and a "genius" and he hates "woke," so ... cool!
Quote from: MU82 on December 16, 2023, 06:04:56 PM
Seriously, Unk ... why won't these folks condemn Elon Musk's antisemitism? He is more powerful than any university president, more powerful than most politicians, and sure as hell more powerful than any of us Scoopers.
Musk endorses antisemite twits, lets antisemites (and racists and conspiracy theorists and criminals) take over his cesspool of a social platform, touts antisemite politicians.
But yes, some 20-year-old college kid, some minor politician or a few Scoopers ... those are your threats to Judaism.
I mean, I get that politics colors things for lots of us, but I have to say I don't get this. It would be so easy to say, "I think Musk is brilliant, but I am sickened by his antisemitism." But they can't say it.
The guy's an effen antisemite. But hey, he's rich and powerful and a "genius" and he hates "woke," so ... cool!
Tribalism is the short answer.
Gay should be fired. The plagiarism for starters and then for not fostering a safe atmosphere on her campus. End of debate, imo. Won't change the war, nor will condemning Musk. It's not hard but pretzel logic is amusing
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 05:47:04 PM
It used to be the ultimate vanity project to put your name on a building or an entire school.
April 23, 2023
Hedge Fund CEO Ken Griffin '89 Makes $300M Donation to FAS, Harvard to Rename GSAS in His Honor
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/4/11/gsas-renamed-ken-griffin/
Billionaire hedge fund CEO and Republican megadonor Kenneth C. Griffin '89 donated $300 million to Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences, the University announced Tuesday morning.
Harvard will rename the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences after Griffin, who has now given more than half a billion dollars to the University.
---
But now, as a mega-donor, you're asked to account for all the university's policies and decisions, which makes these billionaires very uncomfortable. They want accolades, not questions about antisemitism and DEI, because they gave money to an elite school where the Jewish students are being terrorized.
So, money is now coming with more strings attached than ever. Those strings go directly to how the school is run.
If you don't like it, find your money elsewhere ... or raise tuition.
The game has changed, probably for everyone ... and you can thank Harvard for this change.
December 14, 2023
A New Playbook for College Donors: Power Politics
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/us/universities-donors-penn-harvard.html
Donations to U.S. universities reached $59.5 billion last year, and they come increasingly from a smaller group of wealthy donors. Many of them expect their money to buy a voice in university affairs.
Personally I think it's disingenuous for a billionaire donor to say they are very uncomfortable with being asked about and tasked with university operations and culture. I think what they are uncomfortable with is that they absolutely asked for it so long as it was easy and private. At least Ackman puts his thoughts out there, however right or wrong they are. He has made it very clear that he and a handful of other big donors are in charge.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 05:47:04 PM
It used to be the ultimate vanity project to put your name on a building or an entire school.
April 23, 2023
Hedge Fund CEO Ken Griffin '89 Makes $300M Donation to FAS, Harvard to Rename GSAS in His Honor
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/4/11/gsas-renamed-ken-griffin/
Billionaire hedge fund CEO and Republican megadonor Kenneth C. Griffin '89 donated $300 million to Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences, the University announced Tuesday morning.
Harvard will rename the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences after Griffin, who has now given more than half a billion dollars to the University.
---
But now, as a mega-donor, you're asked to account for all the university's policies and decisions, which makes these billionaires very uncomfortable. They want accolades, not questions about antisemitism and DEI, because they gave money to an elite school where the Jewish students are being terrorized.
So, money is now coming with more strings attached than ever. Those strings go directly to how the school is run.
If you don't like it, find your money elsewhere ... or raise tuition.
The game has changed, probably for everyone ... and you can thank Harvard for this change.
December 14, 2023
A New Playbook for College Donors: Power Politics
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/13/us/universities-donors-penn-harvard.html
Donations to U.S. universities reached $59.5 billion last year, and they come increasingly from a smaller group of wealthy donors. Many of them expect their money to buy a voice in university affairs.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!
You seriously think this is some sort of permanent change in donor motivation? My lord you couldn't be more wrong.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 16, 2023, 08:54:32 PM
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!
You seriously think this is some sort of permanent change in donor motivation? My lord you couldn't be more wrong.
No, I read the New York Times, and they said it is.
You live in your head and will not entertain any views outside your worldview.
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf
Harvard-Harris results are worse than you think for 18-24 year olds.
-60% said 10/7 attack can be justified by Palestinian grievances
- 79% support ideology of white ppl as oppressors
- 67% support ideology of Jews as oppressors
Numbers are flipped for every other age group.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfu-wBXwAAclcP?format=jpg&name=medium) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfu-wDXsAAq7oU?format=jpg&name=medium) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfu-wJWsAA4UGZ?format=jpg&name=medium)
Perhaps the most disturbing is that 58% of that age group acknowledge the fact that Hamas would like to commit genocide against Jews, but still 51% want Israel to be ended and the landed to be handed to Hamas.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfvSzPX0AAq7Sl?format=jpg&name=medium) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfvSzNWIAAs2td?format=jpg&name=medium)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 10:01:53 PM
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf
Harvard-Harris results are worse than you think for 18-24 year olds.
-60% said 10/7 attack can be justified by Palestinian grievances
- 79% support ideology of white ppl as oppressors
- 67% support ideology of Jews as oppressors
Numbers are flipped for every other age group.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfu-wBXwAAclcP?format=jpg&name=medium) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfu-wDXsAAq7oU?format=jpg&name=medium) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfu-wJWsAA4UGZ?format=jpg&name=medium)
Perhaps the most disturbing is that 58% of that age group acknowledge the fact that Hamas would like to commit genocide against Jews, but still 51% want Israel to be ended and the landed to be handed to Hamas.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfvSzPX0AAq7Sl?format=jpg&name=medium) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBfvSzNWIAAs2td?format=jpg&name=medium)
Crazy sht. Boy we have probs Heisy.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 16, 2023, 09:48:16 PM
No, I read the New York Times, and they said it is.
You live in your head and will not entertain any views outside your worldview.
Lololololol! Dude who constantly gets things wrong thinks he's finally right.
IDF trial of flooding Hamas tunnels with seawater proves successful, ToI told
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-trial-of-flooding-hamas-tunnels-with-seawater-proves-successful-toi-told/
Spokesman says army has intel on hostages' location and won't take steps that endanger them; Hamas official claims terror group's tunnels engineered to withstand such tactics
GOP Lawmakers Sink Aid to Penn as Statehouses Watch How Universities Are Handling Israel-Hamas War
https://vinnews.com/2023/12/15/gop-lawmakers-sink-aid-to-penn-as-statehouses-watch-how-universities-are-handling-israel-hamas-war/
Republican lawmakers in Pennsylvania defeated legislation to send $33.5 million to the University of Pennsylvania's veterinary school over criticism that the school has tolerated antisemitism, as statehouses across the U.S. eye how higher ed is handling tensions around the Israel-Hamas war.
The bill's defeat is perhaps the starkest example of how some lawmakers and governors around the country are trying to keep universities from taking sides and to toughen the schools' response to acts of hate and discrimination, including antisemitism and Islamophobia.
NYT: Israel Found the Hamas Money Machine Years Ago. Nobody Turned It Off
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/16/world/europe/israel-hamas-money-finance-turkey-intelligence-attacks.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231217&instance_id=110372&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=152822&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Israeli security officials scored a major intelligence coup in 2018: secret documents that laid out, in intricate detail, what amounted to a private equity fund that Hamas used to finance its operations.
The ledgers, pilfered from the computer of a senior Hamas official, listed assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Hamas controlled mining, chicken farming and road building companies in Sudan, twin skyscrapers in the United Arab Emirates, a property developer in Algeria, and a real estate firm listed on the Turkish stock exchange.
The documents, which The New York Times reviewed, were a potential road map for choking off Hamas's money and thwarting its plans. The agents who obtained the records shared them inside their own government and in Washington.
Nothing happened.
For years, none of the companies named in the ledgers faced sanctions from the United States or Israel. Nobody publicly called out the companies or pressured Turkey, the hub of the financial network, to shut it down.
A Times investigation found that both senior Israeli and American officials failed to prioritize financial intelligence — which they had in hand — showing that tens of millions of dollars flowed from the companies to Hamas at the exact moment that it was buying new weapons and preparing an attack.
That money, American and Israeli officials now say, helped Hamas build up its military infrastructure and helped lay the groundwork for the Oct. 7 attacks.
"Everyone is talking about failures of intelligence on Oct. 7, but no one is talking about the failure to stop the money," said Udi Levy, a former chief of Mossad's economic warfare division. "It's the money — the money — that allowed this."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 17, 2023, 06:09:00 AM
IDF trial of flooding Hamas tunnels with seawater proves successful, ToI told
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-trial-of-flooding-hamas-tunnels-with-seawater-proves-successful-toi-told/
Spokesman says army has intel on hostages' location and won't take steps that endanger them; Hamas official claims terror group's tunnels engineered to withstand such tactics
I think shooting them to death for no reason probably endangers them. I'm sure you'll copy and paste a 2000 word essay on reasons it won't.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 16, 2023, 06:15:34 PM
Tribalism is the short answer.
Gay should be fired. The plagiarism for starters and then for not fostering a safe atmosphere on her campus. End of debate, imo. Won't change the war, nor will condemning Musk. It's not hard but pretzel logic is amusing
Totally agree, Unk. I thought all three university presidents should have been fired or forced out for their brain-dead responses at that hearing and other things they've said and done (or not done).
But Douchey, the dentists and a few others here know they have a major weakness in their arguments in that people they admire -- even people they borderline worship, such as Tucker, Trump and Musk -- are either antisemitic, accept and solicit support from antisemites, or both. So rather than condemn those actually powerful antisemitic or antisemite-adjacent people, they dial up the culture war crapola. And even as they excuse or even justify the antisemitism of their favorite powerful white men, they call Scoopers antisemitic simply for disagreeing with them.
Douchey has dedicated entire threads to Musk's genius but responds that he doesn't care about Musk when it's Musk who says and does antisemitic things. Isn't that convenient? The Mequon dentist has said numerous times that he could never back those who support antisemites, but he has no problem backing a guy who dined with effen neo-Nazis, kowtows to Putin and praises Hezbollah. Very convenient. Words matter deeply when someone says "from the river to the sea" (and I agree - those are hateful words). But words stop mattering when Trump uses Hitler's exact language - "vermin!" - about eradicating his enemies or when Trump says some torch-carrying Nazis making antisemitic chants are "very fine people." Why do words stop mattering? Because he's just wacky, impulsive Trump whose Jewish son-in-law took $2B of Saudi money. Locker-room talk! How convenient!
It's tribal, of course. And so freakin' hypocritical.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/christian-mother-daughter-killed-while-sheltering-in-gaza-church-patriarch-says/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/christian-mother-daughter-killed-while-sheltering-in-gaza-church-patriarch-says/)
IDF murdering a woman and child sheltering in a Catholic Church. These are the same Christians that have lived there since the 1st century AD, meaning their ancestors may have walked with Jesus.
Also, IDF firing on their generators and water supply. These are not enemies, they are innocent civilians, most of whom are elderly and/or disabled.
The IDF previously said that anyone in these areas would be considered adversaries, and all fighting age men would be viewed as HAMAS. They have repeatedly fired on civilians in these instances (including ones trying to surrender), stripped, humiliated, and detained (and accusations of torture/interrogation) innocent civilians.
The IDF burning food, desecrating religious sites, and Israel even admitting that Settlers have conducted Pogroms on Palestinians in the West Bank.
Those that have given the IDF the 100% benefit of the doubt, how do you justify all this?
A woman and her daughter intentionally murdered by snipers as they walked between a church and a convent..., the daughter shot and murdered as she tried to rescue her elderly mother and drag her to safety? And bombing the churches generator and water supply, for a Catholic church/convent that is caring for the elderly and disabled?
That's sickening. If it is verified (the pope has already condemned it calling it terrorism), warcrime charges need to be made.
With Netanyahu in charge, no one should be surprised.
2 hands raised and stepped forward, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 17, 2023, 02:51:02 PM
2 hands raised and stepped forward, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
What do you think about snipers murdering an elderly woman and her daughter in a Catholic Church?
Bombing a churches water and power, as they take care of the elderly and disabled?
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/12/14/exp-israel-gaza-dumb-bombs-adam-day-interview-121402aseg2-cnni-world.cnn
Lots of indiscriminate bombing occurring
Who started the war and all its atrocities? Here's news, Hamas doesn't give a chit 'bout the Palestinians, hey?
Quote from: Jockey on December 17, 2023, 12:50:30 PM
With Netanyahu in charge, no one should be surprised.
It'll be a great day for the world and Israel when he's finally in jail
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 17, 2023, 02:51:02 PM
2 hands raised and stepped forward, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
One small orange hand raised, hey?
#veryfinepeople
#vermin
#mydinnerwithkanye
#jewishspacelasersforveep
#daviddukeluvsme
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 17, 2023, 03:02:53 PM
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/12/14/exp-israel-gaza-dumb-bombs-adam-day-interview-121402aseg2-cnni-world.cnn
Lots of indiscriminate bombing occurring
What do you think is the point of this war? What is Israel trying to do? Why? Who started it? Why?
Let me help you.
Hamas started the war. They are supported by 70% of Gazans. They slaughtered 1200+ in Israel and promised more of it. They want all of Israel and all the Jews dead.
Isreal rightly said enough and cannot live with this neighbor anymore. So they are in a war for existence, and every Gazan death is the fault of Hamas. They can surrender to end it, but they do not.
So they are dropping "dumb" bombs. Are you a military expert? Tell me what you think Israel's objective is and how they should do it.
----
If you need further help, try Bill Maher's take from his show this weekend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP-CRXROorw
Found Some Quotes from Maher that I Added Later"Things change. Countries, boundaries, empires," said Maher, citing various historical instances where other groups of people accepted regional defeat and moved on. "In 1950, the little town of Bethlehem was 86 percent Christian, now it's overwhelmingly Muslim."
"After World War II, 12 million ethnic Germans got shoved out of Russia, and Poland, and Czechoslovakia because being German had become kind of unpopular," Maher continued. "People get moved, and yes, colonized. Nobody was a bigger colonizer than the Muslim army that swept out of the Arabian desert and took over much of the world in a single century."
"There were deals on the table to share the land called Palestine... And East Jerusalem could have been the capital of a Palestinian state that today might look more like Dubai than Gaza," Maher pointed out, noting that "Arafat was offered 95 percent of the West Bank, and said no."
That Israel isn't going anywhere, noting that it's "
one of the most powerful countries in the world with the 500-billion-dollar economy, the world's second largest tech sector after Silicon Valley, and nuclear weapons. They're here, they like their bagel with a shmear, get used to it."
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 17, 2023, 03:03:54 PM
Who started the war and all its atrocities? Here's news, Hamas doesn't give a chit 'bout the Palestinians, hey?
We've all agreed Hamas is horrible. They should be held accountable and dismantled. That has nothing to do with this incident. Hamas isn't inside a Catholic Church, unless you think the Pope is a liar.
Apparently you are ok with murdering elderly women and little girls, sheltering in a Catholic Church. Got it. Can't possibly speak out against other people committing horrible atrocities.
Quote from: forgetful on December 17, 2023, 03:44:04 PM
We've all agreed Hamas is horrible. They should be held accountable and dismantled. That has nothing to do with this incident. Hamas isn't inside a Catholic Church, unless you think the Pope is a liar.
Apparently you are ok with murdering elderly women and little girls, sheltering in a Catholic Church. Got it. Can't possibly speak out against other people committing horrible atrocities.
I'll wait until the IDF explains. You should too
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 17, 2023, 03:05:43 PM
It'll be a great day for the world and Israel when he's finally in jail
When Bibi is gone, Benny Gantz takes over. He is more strident about the war than Bibi. He is frustrated that the IDF is not aggressive enough.
More will die faster under Gantz, not less.
Are you okay with this when it happens, as long as Bibi is gone?
----
December 16
Gantz vows to remove Hezbollah from border with Israel
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231216-gantz-vows-to-remove-hezbollah-from-border-with-israel/
Israeli Defence Minister Benny Gantz warned on Friday: "If the world doesn't get Hezbollah away from the border, Israel will do it."
The statements by Gantz, the leader of the National Unity party, were made after a meeting with representatives of Israeli towns near the border with Lebanon.
"I told them that we need political action alongside military action, and I say to them and also to our citizens: Israel would push Hezbollah away from Lebanese border if international community could not do so," added Gantz.
Gantz confirmed: "We are ready for political action as well as military action here in the north, and we will fulfil our duty as a state to provide a safe life for the residents of the north and allow them to return to their homes."
Quote from: forgetful on December 17, 2023, 03:44:04 PM
Hamas isn't inside a Catholic Church, unless you think the Pope is a liar.
Stoopid woke pope.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 17, 2023, 03:52:57 PM
When Bibi is gone, Benny Gantz takes over. He is more strident about the war than Bibi. He is frustrated that the IDF is not aggressive enough.
More will die faster under Gantz, not less.
Are you okay with this when it happens, as long as Bibi is gone?
----
December 16
Gantz vows to remove Hezbollah from border with Israel
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231216-gantz-vows-to-remove-hezbollah-from-border-with-israel/
Israeli Defence Minister Benny Gantz warned on Friday: "If the world doesn't get Hezbollah away from the border, Israel will do it."
The statements by Gantz, the leader of the National Unity party, were made after a meeting with representatives of Israeli towns near the border with Lebanon.
"I told them that we need political action alongside military action, and I say to them and also to our citizens: Israel would push Hezbollah away from Lebanese border if international community could not do so," added Gantz.
Gantz confirmed: "We are ready for political action as well as military action here in the north, and we will fulfil our duty as a state to provide a safe life for the residents of the north and allow them to return to their homes."
Netanyahu should be in jail for his corruption. End of story. Who his replacement is will be up to the Israeli people.
Netanyahu is as corrupt as they come. He also failed his people by ignoring the threat of October 7. What his replacement does will not change the failure of the Netanyahu regime
Quote from: forgetful on December 17, 2023, 03:44:04 PM
We've all agreed Hamas is horrible. They should be held accountable and dismantled. That has nothing to do with this incident. Hamas isn't inside a Catholic Church, unless you think the Pope is a liar.
Apparently you are ok with murdering elderly women and little girls, sheltering in a Catholic Church. Got it. Can't possibly speak out against other people committing horrible atrocities.
It's been pretty clear since the start it's been ok
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 17, 2023, 03:48:01 PM
I'll wait until the IDF explains. You should too
The IDF has admitted they did attack the church. They claim they were conducting a terror operation.
The Pope, a cardinal who is at the church, the christian parishioners taking refuge there, and a member of the UK parliament, whose family is sheltering there, have clearly indicated that there are no "terrorists" there.
Not to mention, the people who were shot, were shot by snipers within the church grounds. First an elderly woman, then her daughter, and additionally 7 others trying to help the injured. They were targeted by snipers, not caught in random fire.
Just sickening.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-confirm-incident-gaza-church-patriarch-says-2-christian-women-killed-convent-bombed (https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-confirm-incident-gaza-church-patriarch-says-2-christian-women-killed-convent-bombed)
Quote from: forgetful on December 17, 2023, 06:08:06 PM
The IDF has admitted they did attack the church. They claim they were conducting a terror operation.
The Pope, a cardinal who is at the church, the christian parishioners taking refuge there, and a member of the UK parliament, whose family is sheltering there, have clearly indicated that there are no "terrorists" there.
Not to mention, the people who were shot, were shot by snipers within the church grounds. First an elderly woman, then her daughter, and additionally 7 others trying to help the injured. They were targeted by snipers, not caught in random fire.
Just sickening.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-confirm-incident-gaza-church-patriarch-says-2-christian-women-killed-convent-bombed (https://www.foxnews.com/world/idf-confirm-incident-gaza-church-patriarch-says-2-christian-women-killed-convent-bombed)
From your link
The statement continued, "An initial review suggests that IDF troops, who were operating against Hamas terrorists in the area, operated against a threat that they identified in the area of the church. The IDF is conducting a thorough review of the incident."Let me know when that review is public.
Nothing says transparency like investigating yourself.
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/12/17/registered-israeli-foreign-agent-campus-antisemitism/
"Lawsuits accusing top US universities of harboring antisemitism all originate from one source: a corporate law firm that fielded the pro-settler ex-US ambassador to Israel, and which was registered as a foreign agent of an Israeli principal as recently as 2021.
The firm now represents professional Israel lobby activists posing as victimized "Jewish students" and seeking to crush the free speech rights of Palestine solidarity activists."
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2023, 12:40:05 PM
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/12/17/registered-israeli-foreign-agent-campus-antisemitism/
"Lawsuits accusing top US universities of harboring antisemitism all originate from one source: a corporate law firm that fielded the pro-settler ex-US ambassador to Israel, and which was registered as a foreign agent of an Israeli principal as recently as 2021.
The firm now represents professional Israel lobby activists posing as victimized "Jewish students" and seeking to crush the free speech rights of Palestine solidarity activists."
Here's my shocked face. #culturewars
The NYT and Washington Posts of the world would much rather report on the fight than doing actual investigative reporting as to what is behind it.
News media reporting is in general a dumpster fire.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/all-agree-media-bias-worst-ever-biden-coverage-condemned/ar-AA1lGLba?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4fd2889776d84b0ba77c2943b84153de&ei=15
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 03:48:09 PM
News media reporting is in general a dumpster fire.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/all-agree-media-bias-worst-ever-biden-coverage-condemned/ar-AA1lGLba?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4fd2889776d84b0ba77c2943b84153de&ei=15
The irony of linking to a Washington Examiner story is oh so delightful.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 03:48:09 PM
News media reporting is in general a dumpster fire.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/all-agree-media-bias-worst-ever-biden-coverage-condemned/ar-AA1lGLba?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4fd2889776d84b0ba77c2943b84153de&ei=15
According to what you linked, this isn't some objective finding but based on polling of likely voters.
So...?
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 03:48:09 PM
News media reporting is in general a dumpster fire.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/all-agree-media-bias-worst-ever-biden-coverage-condemned/ar-AA1lGLba?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4fd2889776d84b0ba77c2943b84153de&ei=15
The funny thing about these polls is that people generally think their preferred news sources are fair and objective, and it's the other media that is biased.
We all have our share of bias.
The question before this nation is: If wrongdoing is suspected by the royal family of the USA, should it be investigated and reported to the citizens of the USA or just ignored? So you can see how important it is for the news media to be objective. Or is it just a propaganda tool for whatever side your bias happens to be?
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 04:27:07 PM
We all have our share of bias.
The question before this nation is: If wrongdoing is suspected by the royal family of the USA, should it be investigated and reported to the citizens of the USA or just ignored? So you can see how important it is for the news media to be objective. Or is it just a propaganda tool for whatever side your bias happens to be?
There is no wrongdoing by Biden - just an attempt to get even over trump. Numerous Rs in both the House and Senate have said so. The R line is he did something wrong. We can't tell you what it is so you just have to trust us.
We KNOW Jared cashed in for $2 BILLION. That is fact and both you and the Rs are fine with it. And apparently you are fine with a coup attempt too.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 18, 2023, 04:02:09 PM
The funny thing about these polls is that people generally think their preferred news sources are fair and objective, and it's the other media that is biased.
It's worse than that. Some people are so biased that they'll dismiss a legitimate poll from a legitimate pollster if it's published in a source not to their liking.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 04:27:07 PM
We all have our share of bias.
The question before this nation is: If wrongdoing is suspected by the royal family of the USA, should it be investigated and reported to the citizens of the USA or just ignored? So you can see how important it is for the news media to be objective. Or is it just a propaganda tool for whatever side your bias happens to be?
Agree. The $2 billion bribe to Jared Kushner should have been better reported.
Why wasn't it?
I look forward to Bill Ackman (and by extension Heisey and 4ever) condemning Regent University, where Bachmann is dean of the school of government.
Former Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) said in no uncertain terms that the 2.3 million inhabitants of Gaza should be forced off the land so that it can "be turned into a national park."
Speaking at AmericaFest hosted by TurningPoint USA, Bachmann told Charlie Kirk that Gazans – roughly half of whom are children – should be uprooted from the region and deported to Iran.
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/michele-bachmann-calls-for-ethnic-cleansing-in-gaza-they-need-to-be-removed-from-that-land/
I appreciate that media outlets are being held accountable for violating the commandment about bearing false witness to the tune of $2 billion combined. It is a start. St. Peter at the pearly gates awaits them, too, if you believe in that metaphor.
Quote from: Jockey on December 18, 2023, 04:39:05 PM
There is no wrongdoing by Biden - just an attempt to get even over trump. Numerous Rs in both the House and Senate have said so. The R line is he did something wrong. We can't tell you what it is so you just have to trust us.
We KNOW Jared cashed in for $2 BILLION. That is fact and both you and the Rs are fine with it. And apparently you are fine with a coup attempt too.
Sounds like your head is in the sand. They have been telling you, but hard to hear with sand all around your ears. Why isn't someone doing something about Jared you are so passionate about? You make blank statements I am somehow supposed to make a defense about? You are just showing your bias.
Quote from: Jockey on December 18, 2023, 04:39:05 PM
There is no wrongdoing by Biden - just an attempt to get even over trump. Numerous Rs in both the House and Senate have said so. The R line is he did something wrong. We can't tell you what it is so you just have to trust us.
We KNOW Jared cashed in for $2 BILLION. That is fact and both you and the Rs are fine with it. And apparently you are fine with a coup attempt too.
The R leading the investigation (Comer) of the Biden family would agree with part of your opinion - he's on record as saying Kushner crossed an ethical line soliciting and accepting a 2 billion dollar investment in his hedge fund.
There are a few differences, though.
1. Trump was not in office at the time, so access to/influence of an official wasn't in play.
2. Kushner had an actual business for the Saudis to invest in, Hunter had only access/influence to sell.
3. Kushner acknowledged investors in his hedge fund and paid taxes on whatever income came to him because of those investments. Hunter, not so much.
Hunter acknowledges that he was a totally out of control drug addict when he was traveling the world on Air Force II with his Father. We've all seen the horrifyingly sad pictures of him in action. He claims he was so messed up he didn't remember to pay his taxes. What kind of expertise does a guy in that condition have to sell to foreign countries and businesses doing business there that's worth millions?
You want to believe Joe was totally in the dark about what his son was up to on those Air Force II junkets? That he wasn't the "big guy" referred to in the emails?
OK, but it was happening right under his nose. If he didn't know/couldn't guess what was going on that might be worse than being just another pol with his hand in the cookie jar.
*lights a joint*
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 04:27:07 PM
We all have our share of bias.
The question before this nation is: If wrongdoing is suspected by the royal family of the USA, should it be investigated and reported to the citizens of the USA or just ignored? So you can see how important it is for the news media to be objective. Or is it just a propaganda tool for whatever side your bias happens to be?
What isn't being "investigated and reported?" I've seen plenty of reports about Hunter Biden from all types of media. There just isn't a lot there.
We, as a society, have decided "soft" corruption is perfectly fine.
Nothing to really see here regarding the Bidens or the Trumps. Or 99% of federal elected/appointed officials
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 04:27:07 PM
We all have our share of bias.
The question before this nation is: If wrongdoing is suspected by the royal family of the USA, should it be investigated and reported to the citizens of the USA or just ignored? So you can see how important it is for the news media to be objective. Or is it just a propaganda tool for whatever side your bias happens to be?
Royal family of the USA? We have one?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 18, 2023, 06:48:10 PM
Royal family of the USA? We have one?
The Clinton crime family
During the first round of congressional hearings, the R's put two star witnesses on the stand they were convinced would put Biden in hot water.]]
Both said there was no evidence of wrongdoing by Biden.
It was like when cultists from Wisconsin and Arizona pushed through "audits" of the 2020 election and, in the end, both found that Biden actually had won by even more votes than first recorded.
Not to detract from the which politician is worse discussion, but Netanyahu has come clean and admitted he was lying to the world, and was actively against a 2-state solution. He's proud that he blocked a 2-state solution for 16-years.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-778417 (https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-778417)
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 18, 2023, 07:53:36 PM
The Clinton crime family
I thought it was the Biden crime family. Can't keep all these crooks straight.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 18, 2023, 07:53:36 PM
The Clinton crime family
Ahhhh...that explains how Hillary ascended to the throne, followed by Chelsea.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on December 18, 2023, 08:57:28 PM
Ahhhh...that explains how Hillary ascended to the throne, followed by Chelsea.
Our national anthem was almost changed to "Fight Song" and you think this is a joke?!
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2023, 05:44:20 PM
We, as a society, have decided "soft" corruption is perfectly fine.
Nothing to really see here regarding the Bidens or the Trumps. Or 99% of federal elected/appointed officials
Define soft corruption? When did society decide it was fine?
So, in the future "hard" corruption may be perfectly acceptable?
Yipes!
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 18, 2023, 09:57:03 PM
Define soft corruption? When did society decide it was fine?
So, in the future "hard" corruption may be perfectly acceptable?
Yipes!
I'm seriously curious...who is the Royal Family of the USA?
Quote from: forgetful on December 18, 2023, 08:44:50 PM
Not to detract from the which politician is worse discussion, but Netanyahu has come clean and admitted he was lying to the world, and was actively against a 2-state solution. He's proud that he blocked a 2-state solution for 16-years.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-778417 (https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-778417)
No, Martin Indyk, the former US Ambassador to Israel under Bill Clinton, made this charge on X on Sunday.
https://x.com/Martin_Indyk/status/1736354448442581286?s=20
https://x.com/dcipalestine/status/1736764560776867896?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Awful way for a young life to end
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 18, 2023, 11:14:52 PM
No, Martin Indyk, the former US Ambassador to Israel under Bill Clinton, made this charge on X on Sunday.
https://x.com/Martin_Indyk/status/1736354448442581286?s=20
No, Benjamin Netanyahu, the current prime minister of Israel, said it at a press conference over the weekend.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday night that he was "proud" he prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state and took credit for "putting the brakes" on the Oslo peace process, during a press conference at the Defense Ministry headquarters in Tel Aviv.https://www.timesofisrael.com/pointing-to-hamass-little-state-netanyahu-touts-role-blocking-2-state-solution/
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 18, 2023, 11:14:52 PM
No, Martin Indyk, the former US Ambassador to Israel under Bill Clinton, made this charge on X on Sunday.
https://x.com/Martin_Indyk/status/1736354448442581286?s=20
Indyk means turkey (the bird) in Polish.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 19, 2023, 08:37:24 AM
https://x.com/dcipalestine/status/1736764560776867896?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Awful way for a young life to end
Sure is and how many Israelis died on Oct. 7 as a result of Hamas' attack? Keep your hand raised, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2023, 11:20:55 AM
Sure is and how many Israelis died on Oct. 7 as a result of Hamas' attack? Keep your hand raised, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Whatabouting to something we've discussed at length and condemned hundreds of times when the mention of death of young girl who had already lost everything is about as pathetic as it gets. Again, just say you don't like Muslims and be done with it.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 19, 2023, 11:50:54 AM
Whatabouting to something we've discussed at length and condemned hundreds of times when the mention of death of young girl who had already lost everything is about as pathetic as it gets. Again, just say you don't like Muslims and be done with it.
If Hamas didn't want innocents to die then they shouldn't have started a war. Will we be sad over innocent Russian civilian deaths like we are over the Palestinian deaths? Yes of course cause we're not heartless. But also, crap happens it's a war and Israel didn't start it.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 19, 2023, 12:42:13 PM
If Hamas didn't want innocents to die then they shouldn't have started a war. Will we be sad over innocent Russian civilian deaths like we are over the Palestinian deaths? Yes of course cause we're not heartless. But also, crap happens it's a war and Israel didn't start it.
Not to get all geopolitical, but are Russian civilians actually in any danger? Haven't read much about that. But your overall point is well taken.
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=1d4902a3a_134ae57
Quote from: reinko on December 19, 2023, 12:49:33 PM
Not to get all geopolitical, but are Russian civilians actually in any danger? Haven't read much about that. But your overall point is well taken.
Not at all but hopefully they will be? lol
IDF killed 3 Israeli hostages?
Unarmed, shirtless men waving a white flag.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 19, 2023, 12:42:13 PM
If Hamas didn't want innocents to die then they shouldn't have started a war. Will we be sad over innocent Russian civilian deaths like we are over the Palestinian deaths? Yes of course cause we're not heartless. But also, crap happens it's a war and Israel didn't start it.
Everyone agrees that Hamas committed a horrific terrorist attack, and it is largely semantics, but how do you exactly define "starting a war" over there.
In numerous military excursions, and bombing campaigns in the West Bank, 234 Palestinians were killed by the IDF prior to October 7th. Nine additional civilians were murdered by Settlers. Do those count as part of a "war."
I think it is more accurate to say that the war started in ~1947 and is still ongoing.
But, the bottom line is Hamas is terrible, and committed a horrible terrorist attack.
It is also true that Israel's response is increasingly becoming more ugly as more information comes out, and in my opinion, no circumstances can justify the numbers of women and children that have died, especially those dying unnecessarily in hospitals.
Babies were left to die and rot in one of the hospitals attacked by the IDF, and that doesn't include the neonatal babies that died at Al Shifa. The entire US was up in arms and supported an invasion of Iraq, because of similar manufactured claims...but so many people look the other way when it is actually occurring to Palestinians.
The war is war excuse, is simply a way for people to justify horrific actions by people they support.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 19, 2023, 12:42:13 PM
If Hamas didn't want innocents to die then they shouldn't have started a war. Will we be sad over innocent Russian civilian deaths like we are over the Palestinian deaths? Yes of course cause we're not heartless. But also, crap happens it's a war and Israel didn't start it.
Saying crap happens over and over doesn't make it acceptable. Sniping healthcare workers and civilians because you're scared of anything that moves isn't ok. Attacking civilians whether in a Catholic Church, a mosque, a hospital, or a music festival isn't ok.
Saying "crap happens" is a nice way to dehumanize collateral damage though
Quote from: forgetful on December 19, 2023, 01:59:23 PM
Everyone agrees that Hamas committed a horrific terrorist attack, and it is largely semantics, but how do you exactly define "starting a war" over there.
In numerous military excursions, and bombing campaigns in the West Bank, 234 Palestinians were killed by the IDF prior to October 7th. Nine additional civilians were murdered by Settlers. Do those count as part of a "war."
I think it is more accurate to say that the war started in ~1947 and is still ongoing.
But, the bottom line is Hamas is terrible, and committed a horrible terrorist attack.
It is also true that Israel's response is increasingly becoming more ugly as more information comes out, and in my opinion, no circumstances can justify the numbers of women and children that have died, especially those dying unnecessarily in hospitals.
Babies were left to die and rot in one of the hospitals attacked by the IDF, and that doesn't include the neonatal babies that died at Al Shifa. The entire US was up in arms and supported an invasion of Iraq, because of similar manufactured claims...but so many people look the other way when it is actually occurring to Palestinians.
The war is war excuse, is simply a way for people to justify horrific actions by people they support.
X 100000000000. Have some fucking empathy people, you went to a Jesuit school
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 19, 2023, 12:42:13 PM
If Hamas didn't want innocents to die then they shouldn't have started a war. Will we be sad over innocent Russian civilian deaths like we are over the Palestinian deaths? Yes of course cause we're not heartless. But also, crap happens it's a war and Israel didn't start it.
"We're not heartless" and "crap happens" are statements that seem at odds.
Empathy, when the goal is to complete what Hitler started? This is where your Jesuit education led you? C'mon man, if you understood what's at stake here, and were a student of 20th Century history, I would hope your moral compass would steer you in the right direction, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2023, 02:24:59 PM
Empathy, when the goal is to complete what Hitler started? This is where your Jesuit education led you? C'mon man, if you understood what's at stake here, and were a student of 20th Century history, I would hope your moral compass would steer you in the right direction, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Does yours steer you to the anti-semites that you fully and gleefully support?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2023, 02:24:59 PM
Empathy, when the goal is to complete what Hitler started? This is where your Jesuit education led you? C'mon man, if you understood what's at stake here, and were a student of 20th Century history, I would hope your moral compass would steer you in the right direction, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Yep. Those dead babies definitely were plotting to finish what Hitler started.
Maroon.
Speaking of Hitler, blood poisoning got you anxious these days?
Quote from: Jockey on December 19, 2023, 02:31:50 PM
Does yours steer you to the anti-semites that you fully and gleefully support?
Including one, that apparently kept a book of Hitler speeches on his nightstand next to him while he slept.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2023, 02:33:28 PM
Yep. Those dead babies definitely were plotting to finish what Hitler started.
Maroon.
Speaking of Hitler, blood poisoning got you anxious these days?
Don't try to twit me, cretin, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 19, 2023, 02:04:37 PM
X 100000000000. Have some unnatural carnal knowledgeing empathy people, you went to a Jesuit school
Is this supposed to get a chuckle?
Pay the tuition and you are there.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Y'all believe that non-hamas Palestinians are getting what they deserve, eh?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 19, 2023, 03:37:18 PM
Y'all believe that non-hamas Palestinians are getting what they deserve, eh?
Y'all?
No, there were only a couple heartless souls who seem to believe that.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 19, 2023, 03:37:18 PM
Y'all believe that non-hamas Palestinians are getting what they deserve, eh?
Pretty sure Palestinians voted Hamas to govern Gaza. Ya get what ya vote for. Kinda like how it works here, hey?
For the theological majors.
Could some of the Palestinians be decedents of Israel, i.e., one of the lost tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2023, 04:08:34 PM
Pretty sure Palestinians voted Hamas to govern Gaza. Ya get what ya vote for. Kinda like how it works here, hey?
Yeah, look at Mississippi.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2023, 02:24:00 PM
"We're not heartless" and "crap happens" are statements that seem at odds.
Maybe
"We're not heartless" On one hand it's admirable to bang together pots and pans when civilians get killed.
"crap happens" On the other hand it's not like any military is composed of the best and the brightest of the given country. It's a bunch of overtired, overcaffinated (or worse) teenagers armed to the tits. If we don't want regular people to get killed then we should avoid war because there is absolutely no way to keep armed teenagers from shooting people.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2023, 04:08:34 PM
Pretty sure Palestinians voted Hamas to govern Gaza. Ya get what ya vote for. Kinda like how it works here, hey?
On one hand, I commend you for making your viewpoint crystal clear for all to see
On the other, I personally find it strange to abide by the same philosophy as Osama Bin Laden
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 19, 2023, 03:23:52 PM
Is this supposed to get a chuckle?
Pay the tuition and you are there.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Is this? Perhaps attending higher education should involve retaining some of the content and values. I suppose no one forces you to do that though, as you seem to demonstrate. But it is your right to insult the institution this board is built around. Garbage in garbage out as you say.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2023, 04:08:34 PM
Pretty sure Palestinians voted Hamas to govern Gaza. Ya get what ya vote for. Kinda like how it works here, hey?
"I hate Muslims"
Quote from: forgetful on December 19, 2023, 01:59:23 PM
Everyone agrees that Hamas committed a horrific terrorist attack, and it is largely semantics, but how do you exactly define "starting a war" over there.
In numerous military excursions, and bombing campaigns in the West Bank, 234 Palestinians were killed by the IDF prior to October 7th. Nine additional civilians were murdered by Settlers. Do those count as part of a "war."
I think it is more accurate to say that the war started in ~1947 and is still ongoing.
But, the bottom line is Hamas is terrible, and committed a horrible terrorist attack.
It is also true that Israel's response is increasingly becoming more ugly as more information comes out, and in my opinion, no circumstances can justify the numbers of women and children that have died, especially those dying unnecessarily in hospitals.
Babies were left to die and rot in one of the hospitals attacked by the IDF, and that doesn't include the neonatal babies that died at Al Shifa. The entire US was up in arms and supported an invasion of Iraq, because of similar manufactured claims...but so many people look the other way when it is actually occurring to Palestinians.
The war is war excuse, is simply a way for people to justify horrific actions by people they support.
Excellent post
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 19, 2023, 02:04:37 PM
X 100000000000. Have some unnatural carnal knowledgeing empathy people, you went to a Jesuit school
Excellent post
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 19, 2023, 03:23:52 PM
Is this supposed to get a chuckle?
Pay the tuition and you are there.
Garbage in, garbage out.
What?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2023, 04:08:34 PM
Pretty sure Palestinians voted Hamas to govern Gaza. Ya get what ya vote for. Kinda like how it works here, hey?
Pretty sure about half the population of Gaza wasn't yet born when Hamas came to power, hey?
Empathy is for losers.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2023, 06:41:41 PM
Pretty sure about half the population of Gaza wasn't yet born when Hamas came to power, hey?
The fact that is true is really kind of crazy.
If you cower behind women and children to shoot at people you hope they get injured so you can spread propaganda that the other side is inhumane to shoot at innocents. Once elected Hamas has denied any further elections and spent millions on offensive weapons while impoverishing the population.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on December 19, 2023, 07:38:04 PM
If you cower behind women and children to shoot at people you hope they get injured so you can spread propaganda that the other side is inhumane to shoot at innocents. Once elected Hamas has denied any further elections and spent millions on offensive weapons while impoverishing the population.
No one is here is defending Hamas.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 19, 2023, 05:11:46 PM
Is this? Perhaps attending higher education should involve retaining some of the content and values. I suppose no one forces you to do that though, as you seem to demonstrate. But it is your right to insult the institution this board is built around. Garbage in garbage out as you say.
You look so cute on your soap box.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2023, 08:36:04 PM
No one is here is defending Hamas.
Not directly.
But an awful lot of the "innocents" in Gaza definitely do.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 19, 2023, 09:06:25 PM
Not directly.
But an awful lot of the "innocents" in Gaza definitely do.
What does this even mean?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2023, 09:11:58 PM
What does this even mean?
I tried to respond a couple of times and just decided to move on.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2023, 06:41:41 PM
Pretty sure about half the population of Gaza wasn't yet born when Hamas came to power, hey?
Currently support for Hamas in Gaza is around 44%, hey? 90% want Abbas to resign.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 19, 2023, 10:42:50 PM
Currently support for Hamas in Gaza is around 44%, hey? 90% want Abbas to resign.
Source?
This tells quite a different story.
Given the low opinion most Gazans hold of their government, it is unsurprising that their disapproval extends to Hamas as a political party. Just 27 percent of respondents selected Hamas as their preferred party, slightly less than the proportion who favored Fatah (30 percent), the party that is led by Abbas and that governs the West Bank. Hamas's popularity in Gaza has slipped as well, falling from 34 percent support in the 2021 survey.
Leadership style is not the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas's goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose "other"), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords.
Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
Also, who here is supporting Hamas? And why did you put innocents in quotes?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 19, 2023, 11:02:00 PM
Source?
This tells quite a different story.
Given the low opinion most Gazans hold of their government, it is unsurprising that their disapproval extends to Hamas as a political party. Just 27 percent of respondents selected Hamas as their preferred party, slightly less than the proportion who favored Fatah (30 percent), the party that is led by Abbas and that governs the West Bank. Hamas's popularity in Gaza has slipped as well, falling from 34 percent support in the 2021 survey.
Leadership style is not the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas's goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose "other"), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords.
Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
Also, who here is supporting Hamas? And why did you put innocents in quotes?
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
42% in Gaza, 44% on the West Bank, 90% anti Abbas.
It's a war. Hamas is the enemy, and a brutal one. Anyone who lives in Gaza and supports their effort is not an innocent.
Nobody here will actually come out and admit their support of Hamas but when virtually all of one's posting are attacks on Israel one has to wonder. The "I don't support Hamas, BUT...." line is very reminiscent of the "I don't support the IRA, BUT..." line from decades ago. Guess what? A lot of those folks actually did support the IRA. I think the same is true in this case.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 19, 2023, 11:40:47 PM
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
42% in Gaza, 44% on the West Bank, 90% anti Abbas.
It's a war. Hamas is the enemy, and a brutal one. Anyone who lives in Gaza and supports their effort is not an innocent.
Nobody here will actually come out and admit their support of Hamas but when virtually all of one's posting are attacks on Israel one has to wonder. The "I don't support Hamas, BUT...." line is very reminiscent of the "I don't support the IRA, BUT..." line from decades ago. Guess what? A lot of those folks actually did support the IRA. I think the same is true in this case.
Is anyone here actually writing "I don't support Hamas BUT ..."?
Applying your argument, shall we assume that anyone who writes "I don't support the killing of civilians but ..." actually supports the killing of civilians?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 20, 2023, 06:34:42 AM
Is anyone here actually writing "I don't support Hamas BUT ..."?
Applying your argument, shall we assume that anyone who writes "I don't support the killing of civilians but ..." actually supports the killing of civilians?
If they say that I think you can assume that, given the circumstances, they believe that civilian casualties are inevitable and necessary to accomplish the mission - so yes.
Any comment on the AP's numbers very recent numbers that significantly disagree with ones you cited?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 20, 2023, 08:27:24 AM
If they say that I think you can assume that, given the circumstances, they believe that civilian casualties are inevitable and necessary to accomplish the mission - so yes.
Any comment on the AP's numbers very recent numbers that significantly disagree with ones you cited?
What does accomplish the mission look like to you?
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 20, 2023, 08:33:10 AM
What does accomplish the mission look like to you?
Right. This is the crux of the issue.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 20, 2023, 08:33:10 AM
What does accomplish the mission look like to you?
Well, it's a war. And any war worth fighting means "the mission" is to win it. I know that's kind of old school - we've fought an awful lot of wars without that being the mission, but imo sacrificing blood and treasure for anything less is a fools errand. So, unconditional surrender or effectively eliminating Hamas. And a period of occupation to make sure it doesn't raise its ugly head again. Sort of like what we did in the last war we won 80 years ago.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 20, 2023, 08:59:00 AM
Well, it's a war. And any war worth fighting means "the mission" is to win it. I know that's kind of old school - we've fought an awful lot of wars without that being the mission, but imo sacrificing blood and treasure for anything less is a fools errand. So, unconditional surrender or effectively eliminating Hamas. And a period of occupation to make sure it doesn't raise its ugly head again. Sort of like what we did in the last war we won 80 years ago.
We didn't just occupy, we immediately invested into them and let them run their own countries shortly after. Is Israel going to do either of those things? Or simply occupy and oppress. Because Hamas will never die if that's the case.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 20, 2023, 08:59:00 AM
Well, it's a war. And any war worth fighting means "the mission" is to win it. I know that's kind of old school - we've fought an awful lot of wars without that being the mission, but imo sacrificing blood and treasure for anything less is a fools errand. So, unconditional surrender or effectively eliminating Hamas. And a period of occupation to make sure it doesn't raise its ugly head again. Sort of like what we did in the last war we won 80 years ago.
Iraq surrendered and the government was toppled. We occupied. Was that a success?
War isn't fought the way it was 80 years ago either. Asymmetrical warfare is the name of the game.
Rooting out all extremists in Gaza will be an impossible task, and the consequences of trying to will reverberate for decades to come.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 20, 2023, 09:09:01 AM
Iraq surrendered and the government was toppled. We occupied. Was that a success?
War isn't fought the way it was 80 years ago either. Asymmetrical warfare is the name of the game.
Rooting out all extremists in Gaza will be an impossible task, and the consequences of trying to will reverberate for decades to come.
Yep. Hamas' eradication seems to be Israel's goal. A lot more people are going to die in the next 5+ years if they don't back down from that position.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 20, 2023, 08:27:24 AM
If they say that I think you can assume that, given the circumstances, they believe that civilian casualties are inevitable and necessary to accomplish the mission - so yes.
But that's not your argument. Your argument is "I don't SUPPORT Hamas but" is tantamount to saying "I support Hamas."
Accepting that civilians deaths are inevitable is not the same as saying "I support civilian deaths."
You're in a logic pretzel here.
But again, nobody here is actually saying "I don't support Hamas but ..." so it's a moot point, right?
Quote
Any comment on the AP's numbers very recent numbers that significantly disagree with ones you cited?
Sure.
Hamas remains unpopular with a majority of Gazans, despite the fact Hamas is fighting the people destroying their homes and killing their families. The lack of "enemy of my enemy" phenomenon here is telling.
Any comment on the Foreign Affairs story?
Israel has the means to end and win this war in a very short timeframe if only the Buffoon and Blinken would quit trying to orchestrate it, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 09:54:13 AM
Israel has the means to end and win this war in a very short timeframe if only the Buffoon and Blinken would quit trying to orchestrate it, aina?
Dream on.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 09:54:13 AM
Israel has the means to end and win this war in a very short timeframe if only the Buffoon and Blinken would quit trying to orchestrate it, aina?
What are those "means"?
How is the Biden administration obstructing that?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 20, 2023, 11:10:13 AM
What are those "means"?
How is the Biden administration obstructing that?
Israel has the manpower and the arsenal to send Hamas into permanent darkness. The administration is attempting to pressure Bibi toward a 2 state solution. That will never be an option as long as one side's only objective is the destruction of Israel and all its people and will not stop at anything else short of that, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 12:06:28 PM
Israel has the manpower and the arsenal to send Hamas into permanent darkness. The administration is attempting to pressure Bibi toward a 2 state solution. That will never be an option as long as one side's only objective is the destruction of Israel and all its people and will not stop at anything else short of that, hey?
Expected stupidity from you.
The US had the manpower and the arsenal to defeat the Vietnamese.
The US had the manpower and the arsenal to defeat the Iraqis.
The US had the manpower and the arsenal to defeat the Afghanis.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 12:06:28 PM
Israel has the manpower and the arsenal to send Hamas into permanent darkness. The administration is attempting to pressure Bibi toward a 2 state solution. That will never be an option as long as one side's only objective is the destruction of Israel and all its people and will not stop at anything else short of that, hey?
Honest question, than why are we sending them money and arms?
Quote from: Jockey on December 20, 2023, 12:37:01 PM
Expected stupidity from you.
The US had the manpower and the arsenal to defeat the Vietnamese.
The US had the manpower and the arsenal to defeat the Iraqis.
The US had the manpower and the arsenal to defeat the Afghanis.
I think the point is that a few people in this thread don't agree with limited warfare. Asymmetric warfare is frustrating for older folks, but for younger folks it's all we've ever known.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 20, 2023, 12:44:59 PM
I think the point is that a few people in this thread don't agree with limited warfare. Asymmetric warfare is frustrating for older folks, but for younger folks it's all we've ever known.
Yup. That was the point I was making. I don't know that it has much to do with age, though.
Quote from: reinko on December 20, 2023, 12:44:14 PM
Honest question, than why are we sending them money and arms?
Because Israel is our only democratic ally in the Middle East. This administration and the democratic party is doing their best to test that relationship, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 01:30:17 PM
Because Israel is our only democratic ally in the Middle East. This administration and the democratic party is doing their best to test that relationship, aina?
Again, just asking. You said they don't need our arms, money, or strategy. So we give them arms and money, then say do whatever you want?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 12:06:28 PM
Israel has the manpower and the arsenal to send Hamas into permanent darkness. The administration is attempting to pressure Bibi toward a 2 state solution. That will never be an option as long as one side's only objective is the destruction of Israel and all its people and will not stop at anything else short of that, hey?
Are you referring to nuclear weapons?
Is it your opinion that all Palestinians want the destruction of Israel and would not accept a 2 state solution? Do you believe all Israelis would support a 2 state solution?
When Palestinians are willing to be suicide bombers and use their children as human shields, there is no peaceful solution. Their goal is elimination of Israel and its people. They want the entire country. That's what is meant by "from the (Jordan) river to the (Mediterranean) sea Palestine will be free." Therefore, a 2 state solution will never be a possibility.
As for Israeli's acceptance of a 2 state solution, I am not sure what percentage would welcome it, but probably many would. However, opposition would be significant as well. Regardless, in theory, its sounds reasonable. In reality, it will never work, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 02:59:58 PM
When Palestinians are willing to be suicide bombers and use their children as human shields, there is no peaceful solution. Their goal is elimination of Israel and its people. They want the entire country. That's what is meant by "from the (Jordan) river to the (Mediterranean) sea Palestine will be free." Therefore, a 2 state solution will never be a possibility.
As for Israeli's acceptance of a 2 state solution, I am not sure what percentage would welcome it, but probably many would. However, opposition would be significant as well. Regardless, in theory, its sounds reasonable. In reality, it will never work, hey?
And of course you're wrong about this.
By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas's goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose "other"), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords. Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 09:54:13 AM
Israel has the means to end and win this war in a very short timeframe if only the Buffoon and Blinken would quit trying to orchestrate it, aina?
You have such a bad case of BDS you have suspended all truth and logic about Israel - if you ever had any.
Shaddup and drill, and let those who actually know what's going on do the work.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 19, 2023, 08:44:25 PM
You look so cute on your soap box.
Buy me dinner first honey
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 02:59:58 PM
When Palestinians are willing to be suicide bombers and use their children as human shields, there is no peaceful solution. Their goal is elimination of Israel and its people. They want the entire country. That's what is meant by "from the (Jordan) river to the (Mediterranean) sea Palestine will be free." Therefore, a 2 state solution will never be a possibility.
As for Israeli's acceptance of a 2 state solution, I am not sure what percentage would welcome it, but probably many would. However, opposition would be significant as well. Regardless, in theory, its sounds reasonable. In reality, it will never work, hey?
Were you referring to use of nuclear weapons earlier?
Do you think there are a majority of Israelis who want the entire country only for themselves?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 20, 2023, 04:15:41 PM
Buy me dinner first honey
Sorry, have a beautiful wife I am faithful to.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 20, 2023, 04:29:48 PM
Were you referring to use of nuclear weapons earlier?
Do you think there are a majority of Israelis who want the entire country only for themselves?
Yes, it is their country since 1948. There never was a Palestine. As for your first question, chumps like Hamas can be taken out with conventional warfare. But hey, its war and everything is on the table when your existence as a country is at stake, aina?
Quote from: MU82 on December 20, 2023, 04:07:57 PM
You have such a bad case of BDS you have suspended all truth and logic about Israel - if you ever had any.
Shaddup and drill, and let those who actually know what's going on do the work.
What exactly have I stated that you find untruthful? Yeah, probably should be workin' more than 10 hours/day to meet the demand. So, appreciate the advice, hey?
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 20, 2023, 05:09:18 PM
Sorry, have a beautiful wife I am faithful to.
I'd knock off the flirting then before you run astray. Ok back to...whatever this is
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 06:41:22 PM
Yes, it is their country since 1948. There never was a Palestine.
So? There wasn't an "Israel" for a few millennia and hardly any Jews lived there when it was re-formed.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2023, 06:45:45 PM
What exactly have I stated that you find untruthful? Yeah, probably should be workin' more than 10 hours/day to meet the demand. So, appreciate the advice, hey?
Biden is far more popular in Israel than you think.
And he's far more popular there than your hero is in the United States, where a new poll shows that 58% of voters surveyed believe the Insurrectionist-In-Chief committed serious federal crimes, including 66% of independent voters.
He also supports and accepts support from antisemites, but that won't stop you from being all-in on him.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-unlawful-killings-gaza-city
Yikes
Quote from: Pakuni on December 20, 2023, 03:04:59 PM
And of course you're wrong about this.
By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas's goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose "other"), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords. Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
The tragic thing for the innocent Palestinian civilian population is they have no competent or pragmatic leadership advocating for them. They have the savagery of Hamas or the impotent corruption of guys like Abbas. It's very much like the old Narcos way of "plomo o plata", these guys only know violence or lining their pockets while "advocating" for the Palestinians. Those can't be the only 2 choices and in that world, nothing will ever change.
I don't disagree that Bibi needs to be gone, and Gatz stepping in to fill the void won't change anything. But there are countless intelligent savvy political operators in the Knesset that will have plenty of support and backing for true change on the heels of this conflict.
But I think this is what frustrates me about the vocal and uninformed pro-Palestine voice right now. First, it's not binary, there is no world in which there is a Palestine without Israel, full stop. If it came to it and only 1 existed, we all know it wouldn't be Israel on the losing side.
But secondly, any solution that ends in a positive long term outcome for the Palestinian people will not, and cannot, happen as is under the current status quo. It's not the direct fault of the Palestinian people, but they need a party, a voice, a leader who diverges from the current leadership of Gaza/West Bank who cannot do anything but point fingers at/espouse the negatives of Israel.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 21, 2023, 12:17:29 AM
The tragic thing for the innocent Palestinian civilian population is they have no competent or pragmatic leadership advocating for them. They have the savagery of Hamas or the impotent corruption of guys like Abbas. It's very much like the old Narcos way of "plomo o plata", these guys only know violence or lining their pockets while "advocating" for the Palestinians. Those can't be the only 2 choices and in that world, nothing will ever change.
I don't disagree that Bibi needs to be gone, and Gatz stepping in to fill the void won't change anything. But there are countless intelligent savvy political operators in the Knesset that will have plenty of support and backing for true change on the heels of this conflict.
But I think this is what frustrates me about the vocal and uninformed pro-Palestine voice right now. First, it's not binary, there is no world in which there is a Palestine without Israel, full stop. If it came to it and only 1 existed, we all know it wouldn't be Israel on the losing side.
But secondly, any solution that ends in a positive long term outcome for the Palestinian people will not, and cannot, happen as is under the current status quo. It's not the direct fault of the Palestinian people, but they need a party, a voice, a leader who diverges from the current leadership of Gaza/West Bank who cannot do anything but point fingers at/espouse the negatives of Israel.
wow! this is one of the most clear eyed, reasoned/pragmatic post i've seen in a long time. but then again, i don't have time to stumble through all the noise here. great post nonetheless waggy
in any event, hamas is like hussein was-gee, he never lost an election-weird how that happened. unfortunately, we see versions of hamas throughout societies. most of them are insidious and come in the vacuum of power struggles or by force. the common denominator, unfortunately is usually POWER. now it get's complicated
if the palestinians are true to their convictions, and i mean the "rank and file" if you will, it is going to take a strong will to get, maintain and keep civility. there will be constant threats and tests to this civility, not unlike most other societies. the difference is overcoming, oh, a few thousand years of "tradition". think hatfields and mccoys times 1000
Quote from: JWags85 on December 21, 2023, 12:17:29 AM
The tragic thing for the innocent Palestinian civilian population is they have no competent or pragmatic leadership advocating for them. They have the savagery of Hamas or the impotent corruption of guys like Abbas. It's very much like the old Narcos way of "plomo o plata", these guys only know violence or lining their pockets while "advocating" for the Palestinians. Those can't be the only 2 choices and in that world, nothing will ever change.
I don't disagree that Bibi needs to be gone, and Gatz stepping in to fill the void won't change anything. But there are countless intelligent savvy political operators in the Knesset that will have plenty of support and backing for true change on the heels of this conflict.
But I think this is what frustrates me about the vocal and uninformed pro-Palestine voice right now. First, it's not binary, there is no world in which there is a Palestine without Israel, full stop. If it came to it and only 1 existed, we all know it wouldn't be Israel on the losing side.
But secondly, any solution that ends in a positive long term outcome for the Palestinian people will not, and cannot, happen as is under the current status quo. It's not the direct fault of the Palestinian people, but they need a party, a voice, a leader who diverges from the current leadership of Gaza/West Bank who cannot do anything but point fingers at/espouse the negatives of Israel.
Overall your post is solid, but I'm not sure that the bolded is true. Polls have shown that over the past 10-years, support for a two-state solution amongst Israeli Jews has plummeted. Currently, some polls have a 1-state solution preferred as the end of the conflict (40%-35%) amongst Israeli Jews, with 30% (almost matching those supporting a 2-state solution) saying that the 1-state solution should require privileged legal status for Jews.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians
(https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians)
And that was in July of 2023...data says the Israeli Jews have turned even further away from a 2-state solution since Oct. 7th.
There is a reason Bibi has continued to move further and further right, and far-right parties have continued to gain more power. Many of the Israeli people want all of the land between the Jordan River and the Sea to be part of a unified Israel (often with privileged rights for Jews over Arabs). The primary question has not been whether that is the goal, but rather how do they achieve it. I think this change in focus has several causes, one of which is Trump giving Israel much of what they ever wanted (e.g. Jerusalem capital, and acknowledging the occupied territories as part of Israel), despite continued settlements and violence.
On the other side, there is still moderately strong support amongst Palestinians for a 2-state solution, but it is declining, largely because young people, who have never known anything besides blockades, poverty, settler violence, and constant military incursions into the West Bank (despite supposed autonomy), have decided that they can never have peace as long as Israel exists. Young Palestinians overwhelmingly are against a 2-state solution. Some people argue that this is because, they have never seen an Israeli leader that actually supports their existence as a people. So they've given up.
I do not believe a solution to the problem will ever come from the politicians, a two-state solution would have to be imposed externally (e.g. UN).
I'll note one other telling data point in the poll.
In 2022, only 32% of Israeli Jews would support a peace agreement if it resulted in a 2-state solution. That means 68% would actively fight against it.
71% of Israeli Arabs would support it.
The above again, is why Bibi keeps moving further right, and more far-right leaders are gaining power.
Quote from: forgetful on December 21, 2023, 09:06:13 AM
I'll note one other telling data point in the poll.
In 2022, only 32% of Israeli Jews would support a peace agreement if it resulted in a 2-state solution. That means 68% would actively fight against it.
71% of Israeli Arabs would support it.
The above again, is why Bibi keeps moving further right, and more far-right leaders are gaining power.
I wonder how that shifts based on the competence of Palestinian leadership. Right now a 2 state solution is not tenable with the terrorists & terrorist sympathizers in charge in Palestine.
Maybe a 1 state solution and put the Mormons in charge. It'd be nice to get them out of Idaho.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 21, 2023, 09:56:36 AM
I wonder how that shifts based on the competence of Palestinian leadership. Right now a 2 state solution is not tenable with the terrorists & terrorist sympathizers in charge in Palestine.
That was literally going to be my next post. And its not whataboutism, I think it very much plays into comfort with your neighbors and giving them legitimacy and other things that come with statehood.
Its a conversation Ive had with my Israeli BIL. He's descended from Syrian Jews, not the white Eastern Europeans so many people mistakenly think make up Israel. His extended family in Tel Aviv have no problem with non-Israeli Arabs or Palestinians. But they've been uneasy about a two state solution for the last 10 years specifically for the reasons listed above. Not outright against it, but uneasy in giving legitimacy or power to those who detest Israel wholeheartedly. It was less so in the late 90s, early 2000s. Its not great, but I can understand some of it.
And again, its the general Palestinian people who suffer. Cause their plight is internally in the hands of people who couldn't give a damn about them and who actively often turn their neighbors against them.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 21, 2023, 09:56:36 AM
I wonder how that shifts based on the competence of Palestinian leadership. Right now a 2 state solution is not tenable with the terrorists & terrorist sympathizers in charge in Palestine.
Maybe a 1 state solution and put the Mormons in charge. It'd be nice to get them out of Idaho.
Those data points were from 2022, long before Oct. 7th.
I also think it is important to consider what conditions led to Hamas having power.
There can't be peace, and obviously not a two-state solution, as long as Hamas or any other terrorist organization is in charge of the Palestinian people.
Can't be negotiated with or bargained with or dealt with or trusted. They want to annihilate all Jews and promote terror ... and the kicker is that they don't care about Palestinians, either.
Quote from: forgetful on December 21, 2023, 12:59:39 PM
Those data points were from 2022, long before Oct. 7th.
I also think it is important to consider what conditions led to Hamas having power.
But its not like everyone in Israel was comfortable and happy with Hamas/the Abbas regime prior to October 7th, that just escalated tensions even higher.
And to the second, you mean Fatah being viewed as toothless and corrupt? That was far more of a factor than Gaza wanting violence. Hamas cloaked their platform as "Change and Reform" which is ironic looking back. I do wonder if someone like Mohammed Dahlan had not been ousted and been a face of power for Fatah, then Hamas may never have taken control.
Quote from: MU82 on December 21, 2023, 02:25:25 PM
There can't be peace, and obviously not a two-state solution, as long as Hamas or any other terrorist organization is in charge of the Palestinian people.
Can't be negotiated with or bargained with or dealt with or trusted. They want to annihilate all Jews and promote terror ... and the kicker is that they don't care about Palestinians, either.
Totally agree, it's really not an easy situation to navigate. Which is why many of us believe by just erratically and recklessly bulldozing through millions of people is just going to exacerbate their problems.
When you're searching out thousands by traumatizing and maiming the community of millions, are you not just burgeoning the momentum to their genocidal aims by giving terrorist leadership all the opportunity to say "see? They want all of you and your family dead anyway, come join the cause".
The more desperate people become the easier they are to manipulate. They're taking a for the most part unpopular group and strengthening them by more or less making them the only (short term perceivable) hope. If someone bombed and killed our entire family to get to one of my cousins who may have been involved with a group, many of us would probably say "f*** it, you're going to pay if it kills me". (We are lucky not to face situations like this)
Unless of course the goal is to continue generating retaliatory justification, which for some of the higher ups in the Israeli government, is hard not to consider at this point.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 21, 2023, 03:47:53 PM
Totally agree, it's really not an easy situation to navigate. Which is why many of us believe by just erratically and recklessly bulldozing through millions of people is just going to exacerbate their problems.
When you're searching out thousands by traumatizing and maiming the community of millions, are you not just burgeoning the momentum to their genocidal aims by giving terrorist leadership all the opportunity to say "see? They want all of you and your family dead anyway, come join the cause".
The more desperate people become the easier they are to manipulate. They're taking a for the most part unpopular group and strengthening them by more or less making them the only (short term perceivable) hope. If someone bombed and killed our entire family to get to one of my cousins who may have been involved with a group, many of us would probably say "f*** it, you're going to pay if it kills me". (We are lucky not to face situations like this)
Unless of course the goal is to continue generating retaliatory justification, which for some of the higher ups in the Israeli government, is hard not to consider at this point.
(https://c.tenor.com/Sd6BW0EQfs8AAAAC/tenor.gif)
Quote from: JWags85 on December 21, 2023, 12:22:41 PM
That was literally going to be my next post. And its not whataboutism, I think it very much plays into comfort with your neighbors and giving them legitimacy and other things that come with statehood.
Its a conversation Ive had with my Israeli BIL. He's descended from Syrian Jews, not the white Eastern Europeans so many people mistakenly think make up Israel. His extended family in Tel Aviv have no problem with non-Israeli Arabs or Palestinians. But they've been uneasy about a two state solution for the last 10 years specifically for the reasons listed above. Not outright against it, but uneasy in giving legitimacy or power to those who detest Israel wholeheartedly. It was less so in the late 90s, early 2000s. Its not great, but I can understand some of it.
No doubt your BIL's feelings here are understandable, but what might he say is the best hope for a resolution, if not a two-state solution?
The status quo clearly is a disaster for both sides. I can't imagine perpetual occupation would be any better, nor would Israel ever annex Gaza and the West Bank and offer its inhabitants a path to citizenship.
Every option seems fraught with peril, but I don't see any with a better chance of establishing something close to long-term stability (and even security?) for either side than a two-state setup.
But I'm open to other ideas.
This is making it impossible to donate to Harvard or any other elite school. Give them money, and you are all but announcing you're antisemite,
Harvard Financial Pain Grows as Blavatnik Joins Donor Revolt
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-21/harvard-s-financial-strain-grows-as-blavatnik-joins-donor-revolt
The list of Harvard University's disaffected donors has added another billionaire: Len Blavatnik.
His family foundation has given at least $270 million to Harvard, but it's pausing donations in the wake of university President Claudine Gay's widely derided congressional testimony on antisemitism, according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter.
----
So ... Surprise! .... Harvard "suddenly found" another instance of plagiarism yesterday that needs to be corrected.
Is Harvard really telling Gay it is time to leave? They are losing too much money.
Harvard says President Claudine Gay is correcting another piece of her writing
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/12/20/metro/harvard-president-plagiarism/
----
By the way, if you're not a DEI protected class, like the President of the University of South Carolina Retired Army Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen, this is what happens when you bungle just one speech.
May 13, 2021
University Of South Carolina President Resigns After Plagiarizing Part Of Speech
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996523535/university-of-south-carolina-president-resigns-after-plagiarizing-commencement-s
The university's president, Robert Caslen, delivered a speech so bungled — with the wrong school name and closing remarks lifted nearly word-for-word from another famous commencement address — that it prompted widespread criticism from social media users to state legislators in South Carolina.
Now, less than a week later, Caslen has resigned.
----
If a white man, and worse, a white man that has a distinguished military career, is president of a university and butchers one speech ... the "white oppressor and colonizer" is summarily fired.
But Claudine Gay gets the full support of the DEI bureaucracy and the most elitist club in the world, the Trustees of Harvard Corporation, headed by the most elitist person in the world, Penny Pritzker (JB's sister).
The head of Penn's trustees resigned when Liz McGill was shown the door. Will Penny do the same when Gay is jettisoned?
One for the Elon/Twitter haters
6h
@BillAckman
This is a superb platform for fixing @Harvard (and other universities that have lost their way) and restoring it to excellence.
I am working with some others on how we can accelerate necessary change at Harvard et al.
It goes far beyond replacing President Gay.
I will have more to share soon.
@SamParkerSenate·
Does "restoring it to excellence" include ending all discrimination towards White people?
@BillAckman
Yes. It includes ending discrimination against all.
---
Does this mean the end of DEI?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 21, 2023, 04:11:56 PM
One for the Elon/Twitter haters
6h
@BillAckman
This is a superb platform for fixing @Harvard (and other universities that have lost their way) and restoring it to excellence.
I am working with some others on how we can accelerate necessary change at Harvard et al.
It goes far beyond replacing President Gay.
I will have more to share soon.
@SamParkerSenate·
Does "restoring it to excellence" include ending all discrimination towards White people?
@BillAckman
Yes. It includes ending discrimination against all.
---
Does this mean the end of DEI?
https://youtu.be/Y7QZgH1eP2o?si=0fZeaoibidvRIe40
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 21, 2023, 04:11:56 PM
One for the Elon/Twitter haters
6h
@BillAckman
This is a superb platform for fixing @Harvard (and other universities that have lost their way) and restoring it to excellence.
I am working with some others on how we can accelerate necessary change at Harvard et al.
It goes far beyond replacing President Gay.
I will have more to share soon.
@SamParkerSenate·
Does "restoring it to excellence" include ending all discrimination towards White people?
@BillAckman
Yes. It includes ending discrimination against all
---
Does this mean the end of DEI?
and hopefully restoring the true and just meaning to "ALL LIVES MATTER"
i've about had enough of the dei people trying to return us to the days of segregation. hows about heeding what MLK shouted out in the 1960's most everyone at the time seemed to agree with. however, the dei people need their message for a number of reasons, the biggest ones-it's where the money is and they need the continuity of the victim status,
oh, btw, where's the money ibram?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 21, 2023, 05:57:53 PM
and hopefully restoring the true and just meaning to "ALL LIVES MATTER"
i've about had enough of the dei people trying to return us to the days of segregation. hows about heeding what MLK shouted out in the 1960's most everyone at the time seemed to agree with. however, the dei people need their message for a number of reasons, the biggest ones-it's where the money is and they need the continuity of the victim status,
oh, btw, where's the money ibram?
Source?
Now, Gay has committed over 40 known acts of plagiarism. Don't let da door hit yo ass on da way out, hey?
Yeah Heisey spit the bit a long time ago.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 21, 2023, 05:57:53 PM
and hopefully restoring the true and just meaning to "ALL LIVES MATTER"
i've about had enough of the dei people trying to return us to the days of segregation. hows about heeding what MLK shouted out in the 1960's most everyone at the time seemed to agree with. however, the dei people need their message for a number of reasons, the biggest ones-it's where the money is and they need the continuity of the victim status,
oh, btw, where's the money ibram?
What "DEI people" are you talking about?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 21, 2023, 06:05:53 PM
Source?
https://x.com/ryan_ken_acts/status/1720086842698297467?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
"Everyone loves me know just like everybody loved me back then. That's why I died of natural causes at the age of 98."
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 21, 2023, 06:05:53 PM
Source?
really? you want a source for what MLK advocated? like i just made some chit up? you know, the color blind society? you need a source for that? come on man?
Op-Ed page of the NY Times
She should be on with her lawyer negotiating her severance.
Dec. 21, 2023, 8:48 p.m. ET
John McWhorter
Why Claudine Gay Should Go
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/opinion/harvard-claudine-gay.html
Rocket
I really like your last post. Gave me a good laugh.
Doc
The fact that Gay hit 40 acts of plagiarism is impressive. It is a messed up world and the Harvard mess is a strange one to me. They obviously are concerned about backlash on keeping her.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 21, 2023, 08:04:42 PM
really? you want a source for what MLK advocated? like i just made some chit up? you know, the color blind society? you need a source for that? come on man?
I suspect your knowledge of what MLK advocated starts and ends with a 20-second clip of one speech.
Quote from: Goose on December 21, 2023, 08:22:39 PM
Rocket
I really like your last post. Gave me a good laugh.
Doc
The fact that Gay hit 40 acts of plagiarism is impressive. It is a messed up world and the Harvard mess is a strange one to me. They obviously are concerned about backlash on keeping her.
low hangin fruit, high hangin beachballs and coyote ugly at closing time...
Quote from: Pakuni on December 21, 2023, 08:32:38 PM
I suspect your knowledge of what MLK advocated starts and ends with a 20-second clip of one speech.
whatever pakman...suspect away
Quote from: Pakuni on December 21, 2023, 08:32:38 PM
I suspect your knowledge of what MLK advocated starts and ends with a 20-second clip of one speech.
Whatever makes him comfortable
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 21, 2023, 08:35:34 PM
whatever pakman...suspect away
Some MLK quotes you no doubt agree with. The third seems especially relevant.
"The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and racism. The problems of racial injustice and economic injustice cannot be solved without a radical redistribution of political and economic power".
"White Americans must recognize that justice for black people cannot be achieved without radical changes in the structure of our society."
"Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting in a similar mass effort to reeducate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that the white people of America believe they have so little to learn."
"Again we have deluded ourselves into believing the myth that capitalism grew and prospered out of the Protestant ethic of hard work and sacrifices. Capitalism was built on the exploitation of black slaves and continues to thrive on the exploitation of the poor, both black and white, both here and abroad."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 21, 2023, 07:35:10 PM
https://x.com/ryan_ken_acts/status/1720086842698297467?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
"Everyone loves me know just like everybody loved me back then. That's why I died of natural causes at the age of 98."
A lot of truth in what Ryan Ken says. Those were tumultuous times, things were changing rapidly. But just like the Bible, everyone can find a favorite MLK quote to try to put him in a box. It wasn't that simple, and had he not been assassinated it almost surely would have become more complex.
Elon endorsed antisemitism.
Period.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 21, 2023, 08:04:42 PM
really? you want a source for what MLK advocated? like i just made some chit up? you know, the color blind society? you need a source for that? come on man?
I'd like a source for "most everyone at the time seemed to agree with"
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2023, 09:05:03 PM
A lot of truth in what Ryan Ken says. Those were tumultuous times, things were changing rapidly. But just like the Bible, everyone can find a favorite MLK quote to try to put him in a box. It wasn't that simple, and had he not been assassinated it almost surely would have become more complex.
"He'd have come around to my side eventually, I know this as an old white boomer".
Pretty interesting stuff on page 170 until 4elder, Heisey and Rocket decide Harvard's president is the biggest problem in the Middle East
And then MLK discussion with boomers telling us what MLK really thought
Bet MLK would pal around with Elon and golf with Trump
Quote from: MU82 on December 21, 2023, 09:19:22 PM
Elon endorsed antisemitism.
Period.
Yup. He continues to promote it on his social media site. But he's in the protected class of billionaires
Quote from: Pakuni on December 21, 2023, 08:44:18 PM
Some MLK quotes you no doubt agree with. The third seems especially relevant.
"The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and racism. The problems of racial injustice and economic injustice cannot be solved without a radical redistribution of political and economic power".
"White Americans must recognize that justice for black people cannot be achieved without radical changes in the structure of our society."
"Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting in a similar mass effort to reeducate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that the white people of America believe they have so little to learn."
"Again we have deluded ourselves into believing the myth that capitalism grew and prospered out of the Protestant ethic of hard work and sacrifices. Capitalism was built on the exploitation of black slaves and continues to thrive on the exploitation of the poor, both black and white, both here and abroad."
+100. MLK wanted all people to be treated equal. How we get to that place is how many people like to gloss over.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 22, 2023, 07:35:12 AM
+100. MLK wanted all people to be treated equal. How we get to that place is how many people like to gloss over.
thank you dog! this shouldn't have to be complicated. i'm not sure what the "others" are looking for, but it i won't be surprised if they eventually conclude that mlk was really a white supremacist
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 22, 2023, 07:51:49 AM
thank you dog! this shouldn't have to be complicated. i'm not sure what the "others" are looking for, but it i won't be surprised if they eventually conclude that mlk was really a white supremacist
I think you might be missing Pakuni's point.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 22, 2023, 07:54:26 AM
I think you might be missing Pakuni's point.
He is. But that's hardly surprising.
Wonder if Rocket would fire MLK for shaving his head to support a friend who had cancer?
Good morning entertainment with my cup of coffee.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 22, 2023, 07:54:26 AM
I think you might be missing Pakuni's point.
He never read it. He read yours because it was much shorter and agreed with what he wanted to see.
He is literally the poster child for this behavior. Reading the news for him is just the headlines or having it read to him on cable news.
My sister-in-law has been writing regular Facebook updates from Tel Aviv.
Today she praised the Biden Administration, specifically Blinken for saying: "Why doesn't anyone ask Hamas to lay down its weapons? I don't hear anyone asking Hamas to stop hiding behind civilians, lay down its weapons and surrender, if that happens, it will be over tomorrow. How is it that no one wants anything from the attacker and everyone wants from the victim?"
For those who missed my earlier references to my sister-in-law, she mostly liked Trump's stances on issues involving Israel and mostly disagreed with Obama's stances. She was a Bibi supporter until fairly recently; she wants him gone now. She mostly thinks Biden is doing a very good job, especially considering the complexity of the situation. If she were an American, I'd classify her as a right-of-center moderate.
My brother (who has dual citizenship) is left of her, voted for Obama and would never vote for Trump, but he agrees with her on most Israel-related issues. He is appreciative of Biden's strong support for Israel in particular and Judaism in general.
Good points.
I hope Biden continues his support.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 22, 2023, 09:10:01 AM
Good points.
I hope Biden continues his support.
It's America and Israel. There will always be support, no need to hope.
They're our de facto colony in the Middle East.
Maybe at one time.
But at $33 trillion in debt.
Doesn't the world own the USA?
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 22, 2023, 09:21:16 AM
Maybe at one time.
But at $33 trillion in debt.
Doesn't the world own the USA?
No. Most of that money is owed to the US citizens and is spread out over decades for payment.
The highest holder of US debt is Japan, and they own just over $1.1 trillion.
Debt rises and GDP rises.
Oh it's cute that people care about the national debt again!
Quote from: Pakuni on December 21, 2023, 04:00:32 PM
No doubt your BIL's feelings here are understandable, but what might he say is the best hope for a resolution, if not a two-state solution?
The status quo clearly is a disaster for both sides. I can't imagine perpetual occupation would be any better, nor would Israel ever annex Gaza and the West Bank and offer its inhabitants a path to citizenship.
Every option seems fraught with peril, but I don't see any with a better chance of establishing something close to long-term stability (and even security?) for either side than a two-state setup.
But I'm open to other ideas.
I might not have phrased it properly, but he/his family would be supportive of a two state solution with reasonable and pragmatic Palestinian leadership. They are uneasy about a two state solution if the Palestinian state is controlled/ruled by Hamas or similar Hamas/PIJ loyalist factions.
A leadership group that is committed to actually improving the lives of the Palestinian people, instead of making Israel an enemy that needs to be eradicated or using Israel as a scapegoat for the plight of Palestinians while financially enriching themselves, would change the tone for them, and I imagine for many in the "against a 2 state solution" vote in previous polls.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 22, 2023, 09:31:08 AM
Oh it's cute that people care about the national debt again!
Thank you for thinking so!
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2023, 08:40:19 AM
My sister-in-law has been writing regular Facebook updates from Tel Aviv.
Today she praised the Biden Administration, specifically Blinken for saying: "Why doesn't anyone ask Hamas to lay down its weapons? I don't hear anyone asking Hamas to stop hiding behind civilians, lay down its weapons and surrender, if that happens, it will be over tomorrow. How is it that no one wants anything from the attacker and everyone wants from the victim?"
For those who missed my earlier references to my sister-in-law, she mostly liked Trump's stances on issues involving Israel and mostly disagreed with Obama's stances. She was a Bibi supporter until fairly recently; she wants him gone now. She mostly thinks Biden is doing a very good job, especially considering the complexity of the situation. If she were an American, I'd classify her as a right-of-center moderate.
My brother (who has dual citizenship) is left of her, voted for Obama and would never vote for Trump, but he agrees with her on most Israel-related issues. He is appreciative of Biden's strong support for Israel in particular and Judaism in general.
Good post. Your SIL is spot on.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2023, 08:40:19 AM
My sister-in-law has been writing regular Facebook updates from Tel Aviv.
Today she praised the Biden Administration, specifically Blinken for saying: "Why doesn't anyone ask Hamas to lay down its weapons? I don't hear anyone asking Hamas to stop hiding behind civilians, lay down its weapons and surrender, if that happens, it will be over tomorrow. How is it that no one wants anything from the attacker and everyone wants from the victim?"
For those who missed my earlier references to my sister-in-law, she mostly liked Trump's stances on issues involving Israel and mostly disagreed with Obama's stances. She was a Bibi supporter until fairly recently; she wants him gone now. She mostly thinks Biden is doing a very good job, especially considering the complexity of the situation. If she were an American, I'd classify her as a right-of-center moderate.
My brother (who has dual citizenship) is left of her, voted for Obama and would never vote for Trump, but he agrees with her on most Israel-related issues. He is appreciative of Biden's strong support for Israel in particular and Judaism in general.
There is no right or wrong answer to this question, but I'm kind of curious as to what Scoopers think would happen if the Palestinians put down all weapons right now. How would the lives of Palestinians change in 1-year, 2-years, 5-years?
Quote from: forgetful on December 22, 2023, 11:00:51 AM
There is no right or wrong answer to this question, but I'm kind of curious as to what Scoopers think would happen if the Palestinians put down all weapons right now. How would the lives of Palestinians change in 1-year, 2-years, 5-years?
For me, the question isn't about Palestinians, it's about Hamas terrorists.
Until they are defeated, every other discussion is on hold IMHO.
I'm not saying you and others should avoid discussing this or any other topic. I'm saying that for me, it makes no sense to discuss hypothetical situations while the terrorists who boldly attacked Israel still strive to kill all Jews in Israel.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2023, 12:00:43 PM
For me, the question isn't about Palestinians, it's about Hamas terrorists.
Until they are defeated, every other discussion is on hold IMHO.
I'm not saying you and others should avoid discussing this or any other topic. I'm saying that for me, it makes no sense to discuss hypothetical situations while the terrorists who boldly attacked Israel still strive to kill all Jews in Israel.
What does "Hamas terrorists defeated" look like? What's Israel's "Mission Accomplished " moment?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 22, 2023, 12:03:19 PM
What does "Hamas terrorists defeated" look like? What's Israel's "Mission Accomplished " moment?
That's a good question. We do not know the answer today. Hopefully we'll get a chance to find out in the not-too-distant future.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2023, 12:00:43 PM
For me, the question isn't about Palestinians, it's about Hamas terrorists.
Until they are defeated, every other discussion is on hold IMHO.
I'm not saying you and others should avoid discussing this or any other topic. I'm saying that for me, it makes no sense to discuss hypothetical situations while the terrorists who boldly attacked Israel still strive to kill all Jews in Israel.
I've stated this before, but eliminating Hamas and Islamic Jihad is going to be impossible. Just like holding Iraq and Afghanistan was.
So they should start talking.
If you believe eliminating terrorists is impossible, then talkin' is a complete waste of time and totally futile, hey?
#fromtheJordanrivertotheMediterreanseaandPalestinewillbefree
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 22, 2023, 12:51:06 PM
If you believe eliminating terrorists is impossible, then talkin' is a complete waste of time and totally futile, hey?
#fromtheJordanrivertotheMediterreanseaandPalestinewillbefree
#neveragain
I don't think it, I know it. The facts are on my side, sir.
The only way you can defeat terrorism is to give people a more viable alternative.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 22, 2023, 12:52:49 PM
I don't think it, I know it. The facts are on my side, sir.
Correct. We can't even eliminate domestic terrorists. Some won't even condemn it. Heck, some people are voting for a domestic terrorist supporter
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 22, 2023, 12:51:06 PM
If you believe eliminating terrorists is impossible, then talkin' is a complete waste of time and totally futile, hey?
#fromtheJordanrivertotheMediterreanseaandPalestinewillbefree
#neveragain
Eliminating all terrorists is impossible. Specific terrorists not impossible. What takes their place, though? Completely eliminating lines of communication/negotiations does not work. History proves that.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 22, 2023, 01:00:18 PM
Correct. We can't even eliminate domestic terrorists. Some won't even condemn it. Heck, some people are voting for a domestic terrorist supporter
Waiting for the BLM reference in 3....2.....1....
People actually still having something to lose like their home and food on the table usually is a good start to slowing radicalization.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 22, 2023, 01:00:28 PM
Eliminating all terrorists is impossible. Specific terrorists not impossible. What takes their place, though? Completely eliminating lines of communication/negotiations does not work. History proves that.
This is correct.
It's also correct you fight back against terrorism and try and defeat it. Anyone expecting to eliminate it is simply naive.
To all those who think what Israel is doing will radicalize more terrorists, you might have it backward.
Maybe what the Palestinians and Hamas have done over the decades has radicalized Israel, as the country is solidly united behind permanently removing the threat for all time. And doing whatever it takes.
Consider the courage it takes a mother to say this because she sincerely believes what they are doing is right and necessary, like most of the country.
And no intellectual argument here, or anywhere in the West, is going to matter. What is going to matter is a way to get the rockets to stop and the terrorism to stop forever, and Israel will not stop until this goal is achieved.
---
Mother of Israeli hostage issues forgiving message to IDF soldiers who accidentally shot her son
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/mother-of-israeli-hostage-issues-forgiving-message-to-idf-soldiers-who-accidentally-shot-her-son-ikp84ui1
Iris Haim, mother of Yotam Haim, invites soldiers to her home and tells them: 'I love and appreciate you. I have no anger'
Addressing soldiers of the Bislamach Brigade's 17th Battalion, Iris said: "I wanted to tell you that I love you very much, that I hug you here from afar, and I know that what happened is not your fault at all. I ask you to take care of yourself".
She said the soldiers "are doing the best thing in the world that can help us, as the people of Israel. We all need you healthy".
Iris also asked the soldiers not to hesitate, adding: "If you see a terrorist, don't think you killed a hostage on purpose. You need to protect yourself because that's the only way you can protect us."
---
Earlier today, she met the soldier who killed her son and forgave him.
Soldier from battalion that mistakenly shot hostages meets mom of one of those killed
https://www.timesofisrael.com/soldier-from-battalion-that-mistakenly-shot-hostages-meets-mom-of-one-of-those-killed/
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 22, 2023, 01:14:07 PM
To all those who think what Israel is doing will radicalize more terrorists, you might have it backward.
Maybe what the Palestinians and Hamas have done over the decades has radicalized Israel, as the country is solidly united behind permanently removing the threat for all time. And doing whatever it takes.
Consider the courage it takes a mother to say this because she sincerely believes what they are doing is right and necessary, like most of the country.
And no intellectual argument here, or anywhere in the West, is going to matter. What is going to matter is a way to get the rockets to stop and the terrorism to stop forever, and Israel will not stop until this goal is achieved.
---
Mother of Israeli hostage issues forgiving message to IDF soldiers who accidentally shot her son
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/mother-of-israeli-hostage-issues-forgiving-message-to-idf-soldiers-who-accidentally-shot-her-son-ikp84ui1
Iris Haim, mother of Yotam Haim, invites soldiers to her home and tells them: 'I love and appreciate you. I have no anger'
Addressing soldiers of the Bislamach Brigade's 17th Battalion, Iris said: "I wanted to tell you that I love you very much, that I hug you here from afar, and I know that what happened is not your fault at all. I ask you to take care of yourself".
She said the soldiers "are doing the best thing in the world that can help us, as the people of Israel. We all need you healthy".
Iris also asked the soldiers not to hesitate, adding: "If you see a terrorist, don't think you killed a hostage on purpose. You need to protect yourself because that's the only way you can protect us."
---
Earlier today, she met the soldier who killed her son and forgave him.
Soldier from battalion that mistakenly shot hostages meets mom of one of those killed
https://www.timesofisrael.com/soldier-from-battalion-that-mistakenly-shot-hostages-meets-mom-of-one-of-those-killed/
God, you're stupid.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 22, 2023, 01:14:07 PM
To all those who think what Israel is doing will radicalize more terrorists, you might have it backward.
Maybe what the Palestinians and Hamas have done over the decades has radicalized Israel, as the country is solidly united behind permanently removing the threat for all time. And doing whatever it takes.
I'll see your decades of history and raise you an unrelated anecdote.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 22, 2023, 12:58:35 PM
The only way you can defeat terrorism is to give people a more viable alternative.
I believe someone here has a multiple point plan that can solve this issue for us.
About all the concerns about the hospitals in Gaza
Gaza hospital director admits Hamas used medical complex as operational hub
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-hospital-director-admits-hamas-used-medical-complex-as-operational-hub/
The director of Gaza's Kamal Adwan hospital in Jabaliya has revealed in a Shin Bet interrogation that his northern Gaza hospital was turned into a military facility under Hamas's control and that at one point, it had housed a kidnapped soldier.
In footage published on Tuesday by the Shin Bet and Israel Defense Forces, hospital director Ahmed Kahlot could be seen telling an Israeli interrogator that Hamas had offices inside the hospital and used it as a base for operational activity.
According to Kahlot, who said he has been a lieutenant colonel in Hamas since 2010, some 16 members of the hospital's staff — including doctors, nurses and paramedics — were Hamas operatives serving in the al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the terror organization.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 22, 2023, 02:38:48 PM
About all the concerns about the hospitals in Gaza
Gaza hospital director admits Hamas used medical complex as operational hub
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-hospital-director-admits-hamas-used-medical-complex-as-operational-hub/
The director of Gaza's Kamal Adwan hospital in Jabaliya has revealed in a Shin Bet interrogation that his northern Gaza hospital was turned into a military facility under Hamas's control and that at one point, it had housed a kidnapped soldier.
In footage published on Tuesday by the Shin Bet and Israel Defense Forces, hospital director Ahmed Kahlot could be seen telling an Israeli interrogator that Hamas had offices inside the hospital and used it as a base for operational activity.
According to Kahlot, who said he has been a lieutenant colonel in Hamas since 2010, some 16 members of the hospital's staff — including doctors, nurses and paramedics — were Hamas operatives serving in the al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the terror organization.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/429/010/a5f.jpeg)
Severely immunocompromised more like
After 172 web pages of posts, what have we Scoopers accomplished?
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 22, 2023, 04:12:34 PM
After 172 web pages of posts, what have we Scoopers accomplished?
It's about the journey, not the destination.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 22, 2023, 04:17:16 PM
It's about the journey, not the destination.
And the friends we made along the way.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 22, 2023, 04:17:16 PM
It's about the journey, not the destination.
If you're all about the destination, then take a fu--ing flight.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 22, 2023, 04:12:34 PM
After 172 web pages of posts, what have we Scoopers accomplished?
That people are just jealous Elon haters
Harvard controversy casts spotlight on Penny Pritzker, former Obama official atop university board
https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/penny-pritzker-harvard-president-claudine-gay-barack-obama/
Obama privately lobbied on Harvard President Claudine Gay's behalf as she faces growing scrutiny
—-
embattled president, Claudine Gay, amid mounting backlash over her handling of campus antisemitism and new accusations of plagiarism, Penny Pritzker, who helms the university's highest governing body, has so far remained conspicuously silent, drawing fresh scrutiny to her role atop the administration.
Pritzker, the billionaire Chicago hotel scion and former Obama administration official, was elected senior fellow of the Harvard Corporation last year, months after she had donated $100 million to the university. In her new position, she personally led the search committee that named Gay as president last December, praising her in an announcement at the time as "a remarkable leader who is profoundly devoted to sustaining and enhancing Harvard's academic excellence."
Notwithstanding her initial enthusiasm, Pritzker has in recent weeks avoided personally defending the newly installed president, who has faced calls to resign, instead joining a statement signed by the 11 members of Harvard's top board, which has been criticized for a lack of transparency.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 04:26:54 AM
Harvard controversy casts spotlight on Penny Pritzker, former Obama official atop university board
https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/penny-pritzker-harvard-president-claudine-gay-barack-obama/
Obama privately lobbied on Harvard President Claudine Gay's behalf as she faces growing scrutiny
—-
embattled president, Claudine Gay, amid mounting backlash over her handling of campus antisemitism and new accusations of plagiarism, Penny Pritzker, who helms the university's highest governing body, has so far remained conspicuously silent, drawing fresh scrutiny to her role atop the administration.
Pritzker, the billionaire Chicago hotel scion and former Obama administration official, was elected senior fellow of the Harvard Corporation last year, months after she had donated $100 million to the university. In her new position, she personally led the search committee that named Gay as president last December, praising her in an announcement at the time as "a remarkable leader who is profoundly devoted to sustaining and enhancing Harvard's academic excellence."
Notwithstanding her initial enthusiasm, Pritzker has in recent weeks avoided personally defending the newly installed president, who has faced calls to resign, instead joining a statement signed by the 11 members of Harvard's top board, which has been criticized for a lack of transparency.
I heard Obama's black preacher was the problem.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 22, 2023, 01:00:28 PM
Eliminating all terrorists is impossible. Specific terrorists not impossible. What takes their place, though? Completely eliminating lines of communication/negotiations does not work. History proves that.
Negotiate with whom? And for what?
Are you suggesting that haggle over how many Jews Hamas gets to kill every year?
If not, I'll ask again, what is there to talk about as Hamas cannot be more clear on what they want.
Quote from: MU82 on December 22, 2023, 12:14:59 PM
That's a good question. We do not know the answer today. Hopefully we'll get a chance to find out in the not-too-distant future.
Winning is eliminating their ability to kill or threaten Israelis again.
No more rockets, no more killing Jews. When Gaza is unable to do this again, then Israel won.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 22, 2023, 12:58:35 PM
The only way you can defeat terrorism is to give people a more viable alternative.
Viable alternative = nation building.
When has that worked? How are Iraq and Afghanistan going these days?
—-
The Israelis wants nothing to do with them? They just want to be left alone and not allow them to randomly kill Jews via rockets and terrorist attacks.
So, who is going to give them this viable alternative? How will this work?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 22, 2023, 01:08:36 PM
This is correct.
It's also correct you fight back against terrorism and try and defeat it. Anyone expecting to eliminate it is simply naive.
The Russians did a pretty good job at eliminating the Chechnyan terrorist threat. You don't hear much about them killing people In Moscow anymore.
So, yes terrorism can be defeated and yes it is not pretty to eliminate it. See Grozny.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 22, 2023, 01:03:24 PM
People actually still having something to lose like their home and food on the table usually is a good start to slowing radicalization.
Or maybe buying them off is not the answer.
The UN and Europe tried to buy their acquiescence by giving them clean water for that table you mentioned via billions to build a viable water and sewer system. But that money was stolen for terrorism and the water pipes dug up and used to make rockets.
Maybe the problem is a radical religion that wants world domination and wants all the infelds dead.
If so, giving them free stuff is not going to make them give up their ideology.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 05:09:52 AM
Maybe the problem is a radical religion that wants world domination and wants all the infelds dead.
A simplistic description that shows a complete misunderstanding of the Islamic religion.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 04:49:25 AM
Viable alternative = nation building.
When has that worked? How are Iraq and Afghanistan going these days?
I never said anything about "nation building." But supressed people, with no viable economic alternatives, are going to turn to violence. If Israel is going to occupy Gaza, then it has to invest in Gaza. Give people a better alternative.
What they can't do is treat people poorly just because they have the power to do so. This is why the settlement issue is so short sighted. Sure you can get some short-term political gains, but when you break agreements with people just because you can, that doesn't look to long term stability.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 05:00:56 AM
The Russians did a pretty good job at eliminating the Chechnyan terrorist threat. You don't hear much about them killing people In Moscow anymore.
So, yes terrorism can be defeated and yes it is not pretty to eliminate it. See Grozny.
But what did the Russians do after the Chechen Wars? They eventually withdrew the army, left security to a local police force, and invested heavily into Grozny, to the point that it has pretty much recovered its pre-war population. They didn't wall it off and leave people with no hope in the future. That's the point.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 06:05:04 AM
But what did the Russians do after the Chechen Wars? They eventually withdrew the army, left security to a local police force, and invested heavily into Grozny, to the point that it has pretty much recovered its pre-war population. They didn't wall it off and leave people with no hope in the future. That's the point.
Let's not kid ourselves, the replacement in Chechnya was hardly an improvement for Chechnya
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 04:28:48 AM
I heard Obama's black preacher was the problem.
No, Obama being black was the problem
Hearin' he's Muslim, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 23, 2023, 07:17:44 AM
No, Obama being black was the problem
hussein did nothing for "his" people and still hangs with the rich honkies, well he might have secret beers with his old bud louis
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 23, 2023, 07:32:22 AM
hussein did nothing for "his" people and still hangs with the rich honkies, well he might have secret beers with his old bud louis
9 out of 10
Hope Jop doesn't transfer to Wisconsin
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 05:57:25 AM
I never said anything about "nation building." But supressed people, with no viable economic alternatives, are going to turn to violence. If Israel is going to occupy Gaza, then it has to invest in Gaza. Give people a better alternative.
What they can't do is treat people poorly just because they have the power to do so. This is why the settlement issue is so short sighted. Sure you can get some short-term political gains, but when you break agreements with people just because you can, that doesn't look to long term stability.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They forcibly removed every Jew and even Jewish remains.
Effectively Gaza became that second state of a two state solution.
The world poured in billions. They gave the Gazans the ability to elect their own leadership.
In other words, the gave them sovereignty, money, and control of their destiny.
And look what they turned it into in just 18 years.
So now they are going to try another approach, make them unable to be a threat ever again. And Israel has the resolve to follow through... and they don't care what the rest of the world thinks.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 23, 2023, 07:11:30 AM
Let's not kid ourselves, the replacement in Chechnya was hardly an improvement for Chechnya
But they are not slaughtering people in theaters in Moscow anymore.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 05:53:59 AM
A simplistic description that shows a complete misunderstanding of the Islamic religion.
Or your worldview does not want to accept what radical Islam does in the name of Allah.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 07:41:13 AM
Or your worldview does not want to accept what radical Islam does in the name of Allah.
"Radical Islam" sure. But radical Islam doesn't come close to representing the majority of Muslims. Just like Sinn Fein doesn't represent the majority of Catholics.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 07:39:31 AM
But they are not slaughtering people in theaters in Moscow anymore.
No, they're just getting slaughtered by their leaders
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 07:37:59 AM
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They forcibly removed every Jew and even Jewish remains.
Effectively Gaza became that second state of a two state solution.
The world poured in billions. They gave the Gazans the ability to elect their own leadership.
In other words, the gave them sovereignty, money, and control of their destiny.
And look what they turned it into in just 18 years.
So now they are going to try another approach, make them unable to be a threat ever again. And Israel has the resolve to follow through... and they don't care what the rest of the world thinks.
The world did not "pour in billions" to Gaza. They've continued to support Hamas. There's a difference.
And Israel's current approach will not solve the problem. Simple people (like yourself) see simple solutions to complex problems. It makes it easier for you to be black and white about everything. But it's has really never been the right approach and it won't be now.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 23, 2023, 07:32:22 AM
hussein did nothing for "his" people and still hangs with the rich honkies, well he might have secret beers with his old bud louis
Jesus Christ
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 07:56:30 AM
"Radical Islam" sure. But radical Islam doesn't come close to representing the majority of Muslims. Just like Sinn Fein doesn't represent the majority of Catholics.
But radical, Islam, and Hamas, is a big problem in Gaza, causing a big problem for Israel. And that must be an eliminated.
Sinn Fein, and the IRA, was a big problem in Northern Ireland for the UK. The British had to eliminate that problem too.
Eventually, the IRA was willing to negotiate a peace, and the no longer blow up buildings in London.
Hamas is not interested in peace, and even again this week promised to kill every Jew in Israel.
So the threat exists and Israel will not stop until they no longer pose a threat.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 08:00:26 AM
The world did not "pour in billions" to Gaza. They've continued to support Hamas. There's a difference.
And Israel's current approach will not solve the problem. Simple people (like yourself) see simple solutions to complex problems. It makes it easier for you to be black and white about everything. But it's has really never been the right approach and it won't be now.
They are not trying to fix all the problems. They're trying to fix one problem, the ability to kill Jews indiscriminately and randomly.
After that the people of Gaza can do whatever they want behind their wall. But "whatever they want" will never again mean the ability to kill Jews.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:04:52 AM
But radical, Islam, and Hamas, is a big problem in Gaza, causing a big problem for Israel. And that must be an eliminated.
Sinn Fein, and the IRA, was a big problem in Northern Ireland for the UK. The British had to eliminate that problem too.
Eventually, the IRA was willing to negotiate a peace, and the no longer blow up buildings in London.
Hamas is not interested in peace, and even again this week promised to kill every Jew in Israel.
So the threat exists and Israel will not stop until they no longer pose a threat.
Do you even realize how quickly, and how often, you switch goalposts?
But yeah the problem is Hamas. Not a "radical religion that wants world domination and wants all the infelds (sp.) dead."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:09:23 AM
They are not trying to fix all the problems. They're trying to fix one problem, the ability to kill Jews indiscriminately and randomly.
After that the people of Gaza can do whatever they want behind their wall. But "whatever they want" will never again mean the ability to kill Jews.
That's what Israel thought on October 6. But keeping people walled off in a state of economic distress won't solve the problem. It never does.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 08:09:29 AM
Do you even realize how quickly, and how often, you switch goalposts?
But yeah the problem is Hamas. Not a "radical religion that wants world domination and wants all the infelds (sp.) dead."
You are incapable of accepting that Hamas is rooted in radical Islam that wants to not only eliminate Israel but shares the wider goal of radical Islam that it wants the entire world to be Muslim.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:14:40 AM
You are incapable of accepting that Hamas is rooted in radical Islam that wants to not only eliminate Israel but shares the wider goal of radical Islam that it wants the entire world to be Muslim.
Oy. You are so dim. You realize you're making a circular argument right?
You made a statement of wild exaggeration. But when that exaggeration is pointed out, you shift the goalposts in a way that actually proves my point.
Never change Heisey. Your arguments are so easy to dismantle. A nice pastime on a lazy Saturday morning.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 08:11:07 AM
That's what Israel thought on October 6. But keeping people walled off in a state of economic distress won't solve the problem. It never does.
Ahh .... Now we are getting somewhere!
October 7 was Israel's fault, they deserved it.
It can never be the at the Gazans were give their own Palestinian state in 2005. Elected a radical organization to lead them and willing made the choices that lead them to October 7th.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:20:04 AM
Ahh .... Now we are getting somewhere!
October 7 was Israel's fault, they deserved it.
It can never be the at the Gazans were give their own Palestinian state in 2005. Elected a radical organization to lead them and willing made the choices that lead them to October 7th.
The circle is complete
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 08:18:58 AM
Oy. You are so dim. You realize you're making a circular argument right?
You made a statement of wild exaggeration. But when that exaggeration is pointed out, you shift the goalposts in a way that actually proves my point.
Never change Heisey. Your arguments are so easy to dismantle. A nice pastime on a lazy Saturday morning.
Every discussion with you goes one of two ways, first make your point with as much condescension as possible. And then personal attack.
This is the way of pseudo, sophisticates. People of low IQ that think more of themselves than they actually are.
Microphone drops to floor.
Hamas = Palestine
It has always been the case and remains the case.
December 21
Palestinians support Hamas decision to go to war with Israel, survey suggests, with no political solution on horizon
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd/index.html
At his office about a mile away, where desks and shelves groan under piles of paperwork, Khalil Shikaki is thinking about the conflict.
Palestinians, he says, overwhelmingly support the Hamas decision to go to war with Israel.
His research company, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR), has just published the findings of its latest survey into Palestinian attitudes.
Seven hundred and fifty adults were interviewed face to face in the West Bank, and 481 were interviewed in Gaza, also in person. The Gaza data collection was done during the recent truce, when it was safer for researchers to move about.
The survey, which has a four-point margin of error (rather than the usual three-point), found that almost three-quarters (72%) of all respondents believe Hamas's decision to launch its attack on Israel on October 7 was "correct."
Less than a quarter (22%) said it was "incorrect."
----
Who understands this? Israel. And they are acting accordingly.
December 22
Israelis dig in for unprecedentedly long war, with some doubts
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israelis-dig-unprecedentedly-long-war-with-some-doubts-2023-12-22/
For days, in the face of growing international pressure to halt the fighting and increase the flow of aid into the Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has issued video statements reiterating his determination to win the war.
"Anyone who thinks we're going to stop is detached from reality," he said this week.
His own popularity has been badly battered by the security failures that allowed thousands of Hamas gunmen to pour into southern Israel on Oct. 7 but a large majority of Israelis back the military campaign.
"We're not seeing an erosion of support," said Tamar Hermann, a senior research fellow with the non-partisan Israel Democracy Institute (IDI), which has been carrying out regular surveys of wartime sentiment.
IDI poll of Dec. 19 found 65% of Israelis believe the government will demolish Hamas capabilities as promised
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:23:07 AM
Every discussion with you goes one of two ways, first make your point with as much condescension as possible. And then personal attack.
This is the way of pseudo, sophisticates. People of low IQ that think more of themselves than they actually are.
Huh
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:20:04 AM
Ahh .... Now we are getting somewhere!
October 7 was Israel's fault, they deserved it.
It can never be the at the Gazans were give their own Palestinian state in 2005. Elected a radical organization to lead them and willing made the choices that lead them to October 7th.
You're being dim again.
Of course it was the fault of Hamas. I've said that from the beginning. But they aren't going to fix the problem if they keep doing the same thing they have done before - wall them off and pretend they don't exist.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:23:07 AM
Every discussion with you goes one of two ways, first make your point with as much condescension as possible. And then personal attack.
This is the way of pseudo, sophisticates. People of low IQ that think more of themselves than they actually are.
Look, I'm just smarter than you.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 09:59:12 AM
You're being dim again.
Of course it was the fault of Hamas. I've said that from the beginning. But they aren't going to fix the problem if they keep doing the same thing they have done before - wall them off and pretend they don't exist.
So a two-state solution will never work because it means: you stay over there, and we stay over here, and we do not bother each other.
Unless you're implying a "river to the sea" solution.
By supporting Gay, the Harvard Corporation (what they call their Board of Trustees) did not end this controversy but instead might have dragged them into it.
When she goes, they might also have to go and find new fellows (what they call Trustees).
----
Harvard Has a Veritas Problem
President Claudine Gay is in a tough spot. The Harvard Corporation deserves to be in a much tougher spot.
By Eliot A. Cohen
DECEMBER 22, 2023
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/harvard-claudine-gay-plagarism-standards/676948/
President Gay is in a tough spot. The Harvard Corporation deserves to be in a much tougher spot, because it has betrayed the values that the university once cherished and that it still proclaims. In both cases, the remedy indicated is the one we senior tutors applied to many a student years ago: fess up, withdraw, and reflect.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 09:59:45 AM
Look, I'm just smarter than you.
Of course you are!
And you also think.
Higher IQ = a high level of morality.
That is how it works. Progressive, sophisticated people who understand nuance and complications will tell all the "Not Serious People" what is morally right and wrong. And they expect praise and adherence to their utterances.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 10:36:50 AM
By supporting Gay, the Harvard Corporation (what they call their Board of Trustees) did not end this controversy but instead might have dragged them into it.
When she goes, they might also have to go and find new fellows (what they call Trustees).
----
Harvard Has a Veritas Problem
President Claudine Gay is in a tough spot. The Harvard Corporation deserves to be in a much tougher spot.
By Eliot A. Cohen
DECEMBER 22, 2023
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/harvard-claudine-gay-plagarism-standards/676948/
President Gay is in a tough spot. The Harvard Corporation deserves to be in a much tougher spot, because it has betrayed the values that the university once cherished and that it still proclaims. In both cases, the remedy indicated is the one we senior tutors applied to many a student years ago: fess up, withdraw, and reflect.
What does that have to do with the war in Palestine?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 10:31:35 AM
So a two-state solution will never work because it means: you stay over there, and we stay over here, and we do not bother each other.
Unless you're implying a "river to the sea" solution.
LOL. You are such a joke. No ability to see anything but black and white. It can't (yet) be a two state solution, but they can't wipe Gaza off the face of the earth, or wall them off and pretend the problem doesn't exist.
You are probably talking about a lengthy occupation, but one that hopefully comes with investment into restoring infrastructure. Maybe Israel can worth their new friends in the mideast (UAE and possibly SA) to restore the area into something other than the hellscape its been for decades. And it would be helpful from a geopolitical point of view - to turn the Palestinians from seeing Iran as their savior.
Whatever the solution, it will take a long time, patience and setbacks.
Another questions of general curiosity.
I'm sure many on here support the Kurds in fighting Syria/Turkey/Iraq/Iran for their own homeland, and supported the Kosovo Albanians in uprising to support their own homeland. These are just two recent examples.
When do Scoopers support a groups right to armed military action to seek independence, and when are they against it. Do Palestinians ever have a right for armed resistance against Settlement expansion, and repression, to form an independent state?
I recognize that the "non-serious" people here just in general hate Islam, so for them, anything they do is wrong, but what about the serious scoopers (which are the majority here).
I'm largely following up on the previous question, on what would happen to the Palestinian cause, if they all put down their weapons immediately, in 1-year, 2-years, 5-years. You often see this statement, that if they put down their weapons it would all be over, but no one thought that doing so would be lead to progressing to an independent state, nor did anyone think that increased settlements, and continued Israeli incursions/detentions would cease.
History and the political stances of the far-right Israeli political parties, say that none of that would ever occur unless there is a drastic change in Israeli politics.
So is there a point at which armed uprisings by Palestinians would be viewed similarly to the Kurds/Kosovo-Albanians for Scoopers, or under no circumstances would it be ok, if the former, when? If the latter, why?
My fellow Catholics, please be careful when going Christmas mass since we are being attacked by the Biden administration:
"The FBI has been caught profiling devout Catholics as possible domestic terrorists and planning to send undercover spies into Catholic churches, just like in the old days of the Soviet Union."
Good ole Trump always playing the victim card. To my Republican friends out there, this is just another example of why you get strange looks from people when you tell them you support this man.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on December 23, 2023, 12:22:14 PM
My fellow Catholics, please be careful when going Christmas mass since we are being attacked by the Biden administration:
"The FBI has been caught profiling devout Catholics as possible domestic terrorists and planning to send undercover spies into Catholic churches, just like in the old days of the Soviet Union."
Good ole Trump always playing the victim card. To my Republican friends out there, this is just another example of why you get strange looks from people when you tell them you support this man.
Well, maybe they're just looking for pedophiles. It's where I would start if I were trying to do a sting operation
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 10:36:50 AM
By supporting Gay, the Harvard Corporation (what they call their Board of Trustees) did not end this controversy but instead might have dragged them into it.
When she goes, they might also have to go and find new fellows (what they call Trustees).
----
Harvard Has a Veritas Problem
President Claudine Gay is in a tough spot. The Harvard Corporation deserves to be in a much tougher spot.
By Eliot A. Cohen
DECEMBER 22, 2023
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/harvard-claudine-gay-plagarism-standards/676948/
President Gay is in a tough spot. The Harvard Corporation deserves to be in a much tougher spot, because it has betrayed the values that the university once cherished and that it still proclaims. In both cases, the remedy indicated is the one we senior tutors applied to many a student years ago: fess up, withdraw, and reflect.
If Gay had any moral integrity, she'd resign. And, if the Harvard Corporation had any professional competence they would have chit canned her immediately after the House hearing, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2023, 01:06:56 PM
If Gay had any moral integrity, she'd resign. And, if the Harvard Corporation had any professional competence they would have chit canned her immediately after the House hearing, aina?
She needs to. It'll help end the war
No Rico, its the right thing to do. She's a fraud and a phony. But wait, can that be said about members of a protected class, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2023, 01:20:21 PM
No Rico, its the right thing to do. She's a fraud and a phony. But wait, can that be said about members of a protected class, hey?
No, it can't be said by those that accuse others of being pawns
Quote from: SoCalEagle on December 23, 2023, 12:22:14 PM
My fellow Catholics, please be careful when going Christmas mass since we are being attacked by the Biden administration:
"The FBI has been caught profiling devout Catholics as possible domestic terrorists and planning to send undercover spies into Catholic churches, just like in the old days of the Soviet Union."
Good ole Trump always playing the victim card. To my Republican friends out there, this is just another example of why you get strange looks from people when you tell them you support this man.
And this has what to do with the Israel conflict?
Quote from: forgetful on December 23, 2023, 12:04:36 PM
Another questions of general curiosity.
I'm sure many on here support the Kurds in fighting Syria/Turkey/Iraq/Iran for their own homeland, and supported the Kosovo Albanians in uprising to support their own homeland. These are just two recent examples.
When do Scoopers support a groups right to armed military action to seek independence, and when are they against it. Do Palestinians ever have a right for armed resistance against Settlement expansion, and repression, to form an independent state?
I think its varied. I think part of the support for the Kurds in the US is in part their uprising against Syria, their efforts in fighting against ISIS, and their end goal. Meaning I think if Kurdistan was created in some legitimate sense, the Kurds would be happy. They don't need the eradication of Turkey, Syria, or Iraq for that to happen. I think that is a distinctly different situation than a "Free Palestine" end game for many. Also, I think with the exception of the PKK, Kurdish military action has been viewed as just that, military action, instead of terrorist activity with an aim of targeting civilians.
In short, I don't see a "from the river to the sea" mentality in the overall Kurdish aim. Its like if people in the Oklahoma panhandle wanted to secede and be just the Panhandle...but didn't need Oklahoma to be eradicated for that to happen.
Quote from: forgetful on December 23, 2023, 12:04:36 PM
I'm largely following up on the previous question, on what would happen to the Palestinian cause, if they all put down their weapons immediately, in 1-year, 2-years, 5-years. You often see this statement, that if they put down their weapons it would all be over, but no one thought that doing so would be lead to progressing to an independent state, nor did anyone think that increased settlements, and continued Israeli incursions/detentions would cease.
History and the political stances of the far-right Israeli political parties, say that none of that would ever occur unless there is a drastic change in Israeli politics.
So is there a point at which armed uprisings by Palestinians would be viewed similarly to the Kurds/Kosovo-Albanians for Scoopers, or under no circumstances would it be ok, if the former, when? If the latter, why?
As for this, like I mentioned in a previous post, I think it all hinges and is predicated on a Palestinian leadership that is pragmatic, focused on the people, and with a true coexistence in mind. One that views terrorism and antagonism against Israel as problematic and counter productive. I think in doing that, you could see a movement towards what 2005 was supposed to be in Gaza and one that is met with widespread approval in Israel. I can see arguments against it, but I firmly believe the strength and momentum of the Israeli far right movement has directly fed off of Hamas's aggression and Fatah's letting down of the Palestinian people.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2023, 01:20:21 PM
No Rico, its the right thing to do. She's a fraud and a phony. But wait, can that be said about members of a protected class, hey?
(https://c.tenor.com/ogiSfj7EfhMAAAAM/a-christmas-story-fragile.gif)
Quote from: JWags85 on December 23, 2023, 01:38:55 PM
And this has what to do with the Israel conflict?
Catholic on Catholic persecution s now a thing, I guess. But we know it's the same people believing that as the people believing we are falling behind in oil production.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 23, 2023, 01:42:30 PM
What do Heisey's and 4ever's ceaseless obsessions with Harvard plaigirism have to do with the Israel conflict?
I mean, thats at least been a spinoff of a discussion of Harvard and antisemitism and the conflict. That post was LITERALLY nothing to do with anything in this thread other than a Trump mention and trigger.
4ever, rocket, and NASP get pinged for doing the same by you and others all the time, I was just the first to respond here.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 23, 2023, 01:42:30 PM
Nvm
Plenty, and you can't admit the connection. Step forward with hand raised, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2023, 01:52:15 PM
Plenty, and you can't admit the connection. Step forward with hand raised, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
#poisoningtheblood
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2023, 01:52:15 PM
Plenty, and you can't admit the connection. Step forward with hand raised, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Neither can you. You won't condemn anti-semitism from your tribe and call them pawns.
Step forward and raise your hand, aina?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 08:20:04 AM
October 7 was Israel's fault, they deserved it.
It is possible and debated that Israel played a role in October 7th. They most certainly did not deserve it.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 23, 2023, 12:59:34 PM
Well, maybe they're just looking for pedophiles. It's where I would start if I were trying to do a sting operation
Ohhhhh, that's what he meant. Okay, I guess we should be glad he's on the case.
It never ceases to amaze me how we re-interpret Trump's crazy talk for something more reasonable.
It's possible the Palestinians fear if Hamas lays down their weapons, they are susceptible to occupation. It is possible the Israelis fear if the IDF lay down their weapons, they are susceptible to massacre. Solution, replace each government.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/israeli-hamas-command-center-al-shifa-hospital-falls-report-1234934784/
Investigation into al-shifa hospital
Harvard will not be fine, hey?
https://apple.news/AL8Qy073YQgWPedh9qB2hDQ
Harvard will absolutely be fine.
This is like when I kept hearing that "North Carolina is in trouble now" because of their latest academic cheating scandal. Well, a few months later I watched them play Villanova for the national championship. I was so glad that Villanova won that game, but not so much because of their Big East status, but because I wouldn't have been able to take the cheaters winning the title.
Quote from: forgetful on December 23, 2023, 12:04:36 PM
Another questions of general curiosity.
I'm sure many on here support the Kurds in fighting Syria/Turkey/Iraq/Iran for their own homeland, and supported the Kosovo Albanians in uprising to support their own homeland. These are just two recent examples.
When do Scoopers support a groups right to armed military action to seek independence, and when are they against it. Do Palestinians ever have a right for armed resistance against Settlement expansion, and repression, to form an independent state?
I recognize that the "non-serious" people here just in general hate Islam, so for them, anything they do is wrong, but what about the serious scoopers (which are the majority here).
I'm largely following up on the previous question, on what would happen to the Palestinian cause, if they all put down their weapons immediately, in 1-year, 2-years, 5-years. You often see this statement, that if they put down their weapons it would all be over, but no one thought that doing so would be lead to progressing to an independent state, nor did anyone think that increased settlements, and continued Israeli incursions/detentions would cease.
History and the political stances of the far-right Israeli political parties, say that none of that would ever occur unless there is a drastic change in Israeli politics.
So is there a point at which armed uprisings by Palestinians would be viewed similarly to the Kurds/Kosovo-Albanians for Scoopers, or under no circumstances would it be ok, if the former, when? If the latter, why?
Why don't the Palestinians say they will run the West Bank and leave us alone (which is what they want, zero Jews, like Gaza)
Israel would happily agree if they just gave assurances of no violence against Israel. If they did that, Israel would send the IDF in to forcibly remove the settlers as they did with Jews in Gaza in 2005.
Why is a promise of no violence against Israel so hard for the Palestinians to agree to? You know the answer but don't want to say it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 11:22:03 AM
LOL. You are such a joke. No ability to see anything but black and white. It can't (yet) be a two state solution, but they can't wipe Gaza off the face of the earth, or wall them off and pretend the problem doesn't exist.
You are probably talking about a lengthy occupation, but one that hopefully comes with investment into restoring infrastructure. Maybe Israel can worth their new friends in the mideast (UAE and possibly SA) to restore the area into something other than the hellscape its been for decades. And it would be helpful from a geopolitical point of view - to turn the Palestinians from seeing Iran as their savior.
Whatever the solution, it will take a long time, patience and setbacks.
Same answer:
Wall them off and pretending they do not exist is what the Gazans want. That is why Gaza has zero Jews. Israel had to dig up the Jewish cemeteries and take the remains with them when they left in 2005.
Again, all the Palestinians have to do is give assurances they will stop killing Jews, and they will have peace in five minutes.
Again, why have the Palestinians never agreed to no more killing Jews in the last 75 years?
Since you're smarter than me ... I'll answer it for you ... because the Palestinians do not want peace. They want all the Jews dead so they can live "from the river to the sea."
All the "serious scoopers" fail to understand the importance of October 7. It marked a major turning point in Israel's thinking. They are completely united in "never again." They are not stopping until the Palestinians are unable to commit violence against Israel. And they will do whatever it takes.
No nuance is required; they want to be able to say that the Palestinians no longer have the means to kill any more Jews.
If your answer is they can never do that, then this is just the beginning, and it will get really ugly.
What about world opinion? Israel doesn't care; they are in a fight for their survival as they cannot live anymore with the constant threat of violence and death. So, they are going to end that threat.
Look at Ukraine: 700,000 dead (300k Russians and 400k Ukranians), and all the "serious people" with the Ukraine flag avatars are bored of it and moving on. As they did with Afghanistan before that, Darfur (which might be the worst it has ever been right now, and no one cares anymore), Rwanda (they did a movie about it, that's enough), Somalia (again, they got a cool movie, that is enough), the Ethiopian famine, Iraq, 9/11, and on and on and on.
The sad reality is "serious people" will get bored of this, and these 175 pages will be forgotten by "serious people," and Israel will return to its October 6th stature but with some dead Jews and a ton of dead Palestinians and an enemy that is unable to commit violence against them.
In other words, Israel will win again.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 04:25:47 PM
Harvard will absolutely be fine.
What is happening at Harvard will make it fine. if the donors were not forcing change, and let the status quo continue, Harvard would not be fine.
Effectively, Bill Ackman's X account now runs Harvard. And he greatly respects Elon.
"Serious People" do not understand this.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 06:52:51 PM
What is happening at Harvard will make it fine. if the donors were not forcing change, and let the status quo continue, Harvard would not be fine.
Effectively, Bill Ackman's X account now runs Harvard. And he greatly respects Elon.
"Serious People" do not understand this.
He respects an anti-semite. He's a hypocrite.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 06:52:51 PM
What is happening at Harvard will make it fine. if the donors were not forcing change, and let the status quo continue, Harvard would not be fine.
Effectively, Bill Ackman's X account now runs Harvard. And he greatly respects Elon.
"Serious People" do not understand this.
LOL...no.
Bill Ackman's account doesn't run Harvard. You are way too online and too feeble minded to realize it.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 06:43:19 PM
Why don't the Palestinians say they will run the West Bank and leave us alone (which is what they want, zero Jews, like Gaza)
Israel would happily agree if they just gave assurances of no violence against Israel. If they did that, Israel would send the IDF in to forcibly remove the settlers as they did with Jews in Gaza in 2005.
Why is a promise of no violence against Israel so hard for the Palestinians to agree to? You know the answer but don't want to say it.
Same answer:
Wall them off and pretending they do not exist is what the Gazans want. That is why Gaza has zero Jews. Israel had to dig up the Jewish cemeteries and take the remains with them when they left in 2005.
Again, all the Palestinians have to do is give assurances they will stop killing Jews, and they will have peace in five minutes.
Again, why have the Palestinians never agreed to no more killing Jews in the last 75 years?
Since you're smarter than me ... I'll answer it for you ... because the Palestinians do not want peace. They want all the Jews dead so they can live "from the river to the sea."
All the "serious scoopers" fail to understand the importance of October 7. It marked a major turning point in Israel's thinking. They are completely united in "never again." They are not stopping until the Palestinians are unable to commit violence against Israel. And they will do whatever it takes.
No nuance is required; they want to be able to say that the Palestinians no longer have the means to kill any more Jews.
If your answer is they can never do that, then this is just the beginning, and it will get really ugly.
What about world opinion? Israel doesn't care; they are in a fight for their survival as they cannot live anymore with the constant threat of violence and death. So, they are going to end that threat.
Look at Ukraine: 700,000 dead (300k Russians and 400k Ukranians), and all the "serious people" with the Ukraine flag avatars are bored of it and moving on. As they did with Afghanistan before that, Darfur (which might be the worst it has ever been right now, and no one cares anymore), Rwanda (they did a movie about it, that's enough), Somalia (again, they got a cool movie, that is enough), the Ethiopian famine, Iraq, 9/11, and on and on and on.
The sad reality is "serious people" will get bored of this, and these 175 pages will be forgotten by "serious people," and Israel will return to its October 6th stature but with some dead Jews and a ton of dead Palestinians and an enemy that is unable to commit violence against them.
In other words, Israel will win again.
Israel will definitely win again. No doubt. And that's a good thing.
But they will still face violent terrorism unless they change how they govern post-winning. You are again conflating what Hamas wants with what Palestinians want. Palestinians, like most people, want peace and prosperity. But simple people such as yourself want to throw everyone in the same bucket because it make it easier to justify violence against them.
History will prove me right. Yet you will claim to have it right all along because you are dishonest and dimwitted.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 07:05:10 PM
LOL...no.
Bill Ackman's account doesn't run Harvard. You are way too online and too feeble minded to realize it.
Ackman thinks his X account runs Harvard, and it is hard to argue with him.
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1737803392427110730
This is a superb platform for fixing @Harvard (and other universities that have lost their way) and restoring it to excellence.
I am working with some others on how we can accelerate necessary change at Harvard et al.
It goes far beyond replacing President Gay.
I will have more to share soon.
-------
And Ackman is telling his 1M followers on X how to fix Harvard, and no donor is moving until he gives his blessing ...
He hates Penny Pritzker, as does his good friend and Harvard's largest donor, Ken Griffin. Griffin and JB are mortal enemies. Griffin left Chicago for Miami in part because of hatred for JB.
They want her out and all her supporters from the Harvard corporation.
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1738604362484916324?s=20
If @Harvard President Gay resigns, it does not restore Harvard's reputation. That would only begin when the Corporation board members acknowledge that they made a bad choice of leader, which they have been unwilling to do.
The first step to reputational repair is to acknowledge one's failures, analyze what went wrong, and then take definitive steps going forward to ensure the error is not repeated.
By waiting for President Gay to resign, the board members can temporarily disclaim responsibility and avoid the inevitable racism accusation, but they are digging a deeper whole for themselves.
When your CEO has done the indefensible, you must take immediate action to replace her. If you don't, you become culpable in what was initially only her failures.
Ultimately, the buck stops with the Harvard Corporation board. They need to act now.
Each hour of inaction further damages the institution for whom they have a fiduciary responsibility. The board's actions and inactions to date are indefensible in light of their fiduciary responsibilities to Harvard, the faculty, the student body, the alumni community and other societal stakeholders.
The Harvard Corporation Board is not an honorarium. It is a serious societal responsibility.
We deserve better.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 06:43:19 PM
Why don't the Palestinians say they will run the West Bank and leave us alone (which is what they want, zero Jews, like Gaza)
Israel would happily agree if they just gave assurances of no violence against Israel. If they did that, Israel would send the IDF in to forcibly remove the settlers as they did with Jews in Gaza in 2005.
Why is a promise of no violence against Israel so hard for the Palestinians to agree to? You know the answer but don't want to say it.
Same answer:
Wall them off and pretending they do not exist is what the Gazans want. That is why Gaza has zero Jews. Israel had to dig up the Jewish cemeteries and take the remains with them when they left in 2005.
Again, all the Palestinians have to do is give assurances they will stop killing Jews, and they will have peace in five minutes.
Again, why have the Palestinians never agreed to no more killing Jews in the last 75 years?
Since you're smarter than me ... I'll answer it for you ... because the Palestinians do not want peace. They want all the Jews dead so they can live "from the river to the sea."
All the "serious scoopers" fail to understand the importance of October 7. It marked a major turning point in Israel's thinking. They are completely united in "never again." They are not stopping until the Palestinians are unable to commit violence against Israel. And they will do whatever it takes.
No nuance is required; they want to be able to say that the Palestinians no longer have the means to kill any more Jews.
If your answer is they can never do that, then this is just the beginning, and it will get really ugly.
What about world opinion? Israel doesn't care; they are in a fight for their survival as they cannot live anymore with the constant threat of violence and death. So, they are going to end that threat.
Look at Ukraine: 700,000 dead (300k Russians and 400k Ukranians), and all the "serious people" with the Ukraine flag avatars are bored of it and moving on. As they did with Afghanistan before that, Darfur (which might be the worst it has ever been right now, and no one cares anymore), Rwanda (they did a movie about it, that's enough), Somalia (again, they got a cool movie, that is enough), the Ethiopian famine, Iraq, 9/11, and on and on and on.
The sad reality is "serious people" will get bored of this, and these 175 pages will be forgotten by "serious people," and Israel will return to its October 6th stature but with some dead Jews and a ton of dead Palestinians and an enemy that is unable to commit violence against them.
In other words, Israel will win again.
What are the chances you ever posted about Israel or anti-semitism on this board before October 7th?
Quote from: reinko on December 23, 2023, 07:20:52 PM
What are the chances you ever posted about Israel or anti-semitism on this board before October 7th?
Zero, there was never a reason to before.
And the answer for most posters in this thread would also be zero.
Why do you think this is relevant?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 23, 2023, 02:07:03 PM
Neither can you. You won't condemn anti-semitism from your tribe and call them pawns.
Step forward and raise your hand, aina?
Have you noticed how unwilliing he is to do this?
He either claims his heroes who support antisemites aren't antisemites, or he just ignores it.
I don't blame him. If I supported a bunch of antisemites even as I tried to call out others as antisemitic, I'd keep ignoring the antisemites I support, too.
Starting with his favorite president ever, who actively aids and comforts antisemites everywhere. Doc shares something in common with David Duke and Nick Fuentes. Loves the 91 felony Criminal Defendant!
Quote from: reinko on December 23, 2023, 07:20:52 PM
What are the chances you ever posted about Israel or anti-semitism on this board before October 7th?
What a dopey question. Antisemitism was only invented on Oct. 7.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
Ackman thinks his X account runs Harvard,
Of course he does. And he has an army of online simpletons (such as yourself) that agree with him.
Regardless Harvard will be fine.
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2023, 07:27:08 PM
Have you noticed how unwilliing he is to do this?
He either claims his heroes who support antisemites aren't antisemites, or he just ignores it.
I don't blame him. If I supported a bunch of antisemites even as I tried to call out others as antisemitic, I'd keep ignoring the antisemites I support, too.
Starting with his favorite president ever, who actively aids and comforts antisemites everywhere. Doc shares something in common with David Duke and Nick Fuentes. Loves the 91 felony Criminal Defendant!
Lol 😂
Palestinians =\= Hamas
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2023, 07:50:51 PM
Lol 😂
I know it's funny to you that you bend the knee to those who support and accept support from antisemites. You love your favorite ex-president every bit as much as David Duke and Nick Fuentes do ... except he won't have dinner with you.
Heil Drumpf!
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2023, 08:02:46 PM
I know it's funny to you that you bend the knee to those who support and accept support from antisemites. You love your favorite ex-president every bit as much as David Duke and Nick Fuentes do ... except he won't have dinner with you.
Heil Drumpf!
Maybe one day, Doc will be able to condemn anti-semitism from all and not just the ones he disagrees with politically. My confidence is low, however
Maybe one day y'all will take off your blue glasses and see the light. But, probably not.
Merry Christmas, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2023, 08:49:11 PM
Maybe one day y'all will take off your blue glasses and see the light. But, probably not.
Merry Christmas, hey?
The blue glasses that support Drumpf, Tucker, Musk, MTG, Gosar and the rest of your gang?
Jews don't celebrate Xmas, but you have a good one. Maybe Santa will deliver you new kneepads.
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2023, 08:55:55 PM
The blue glasses that support Drumpf, Tucker, Musk, MTG, Gosar and the rest of your gang?
Jews don't celebrate Xmas, but you have a good one. Maybe Santa will deliver you new kneepads.
Dayum, tis the season, guys. All I want is Scoop peace
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 23, 2023, 07:51:54 PM
Palestinians =\= Hamas
Or maybe they are equal
December 21
Palestinians support Hamas decision to go to war with Israel, survey suggests, with no political solution on horizon
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd/index.html
At his office about a mile away, where desks and shelves groan under piles of paperwork, Khalil Shikaki is thinking about the conflict.
Palestinians, he says, overwhelmingly support the Hamas decision to go to war with Israel.
His research company, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR), has just published the findings of its latest survey into Palestinian attitudes.
Seven hundred and fifty adults were interviewed face to face in the West Bank, and 481 were interviewed in Gaza, also in person. The Gaza data collection was done during the recent truce, when it was safer for researchers to move about.
The survey, which has a four-point margin of error (rather than the usual three-point), found that almost three-quarters (72%) of all respondents believe Hamas's decision to launch its attack on Israel on October 7 was "correct."
Less than a quarter (22%) said it was "incorrect."
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2023, 08:55:55 PM
Jews don't celebrate Xmas, but you have a good one. Maybe Santa will deliver you new kneepads.
Really? I have several Jewish friends who celebrate both Hanukkah and Christmas. And Agnostics who celebrate Christmas, too. Atheists, I'm not sure.
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2023, 07:27:08 PM
Have you noticed how unwilliing he is to do this?
He either claims his heroes who support antisemites aren't antisemites, or he just ignores it.
I don't blame him. If I supported a bunch of antisemites even as I tried to call out others as antisemitic, I'd keep ignoring the antisemites I support, too.
Starting with his favorite president ever, who actively aids and comforts antisemites everywhere. Doc shares something in common with David Duke and Nick Fuentes. Loves the 91 felony Criminal Defendant!
Like I said a couple of pages back, the willful ignorance coming from the right is staggering.
Wags, do you see what I mean? Examples are everywhere.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 07:08:48 PM
Israel will definitely win again. No doubt. And that's a good thing.
But they will still face violent terrorism unless they change how they govern post-winning. You are again conflating what Hamas wants with what Palestinians want. Palestinians, like most people, want peace and prosperity. But simple people such as yourself want to throw everyone in the same bucket because it make it easier to justify violence against them.
History will prove me right. Yet you will claim to have it right all along because you are dishonest and dimwitted.
The highlighted part is what western progressives
want, so they think that is what everyone wants. And they ridicule anyone that does think like them, because their worldview is the only correct one.
The reality is this is not what Palestinians want. They are engaged in a religious war against infelds to turn the entire world Muslim. And it starts with killing all the Jews. They cannot be anymore clear about this.
If the Palestinians really wanted, what western progressive wanted, 72% of them would not be in favor of October 7, as a poll above shows.
They would not have sent thousands of their children to death via suicide bombing, and then happily accept payment from the Palestinian Authority.
They would not have formed the PLO, Hamas, al-Qassam Brigades, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, they would not have allowed Isis into Gaza and celebrate them, throwing homosexuals off the top of roofs to their death.
They want nothing that Western progressives want. when given a chance, they'll kill all the Western Progressives. And the fact that Western Progressives cannot see this is a single biggest problem we have right now.
Western Progressives are stuck in the oppressor/oppressed matrix that they can't get out of. They see white people as only the oppressor never can be the oppressed, and they see Jews as white people.
What breaks their brain is the idea that the Jews are the oppressed and the oppressors is radical Islam, which is estimated to be 15% to 20% of the Muslim world. Which means it could be 100 to 200 million people. And the tip of that spear is the Palestinians.
Remember they are smarter than "not serious people."
"Peace and prosperity" is something only "western progressives" want?
Holy sh*t. This is where your broken logic has lead you? That peace and prosperity are "progressive" values? 😂😂😂
Wow. Anyway Hamas is the clear oppressor. They are oppressing their own people with Iran's help. My point is that, when this is done, if Israel (and others) don't give the Palestinians reason for hope, they will turn right back to violence.
BTW "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are pretty much the same as "peace and prosperity." Glad you think Thomas Jefferson et. al. had a "western progressive" viewpoint.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 23, 2023, 10:14:26 PM
Or maybe they are equal
December 21
Palestinians support Hamas decision to go to war with Israel, survey suggests, with no political solution on horizon
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd/index.html
At his office about a mile away, where desks and shelves groan under piles of paperwork, Khalil Shikaki is thinking about the conflict.
Palestinians, he says, overwhelmingly support the Hamas decision to go to war with Israel.
His research company, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR), has just published the findings of its latest survey into Palestinian attitudes.
Seven hundred and fifty adults were interviewed face to face in the West Bank, and 481 were interviewed in Gaza, also in person. The Gaza data collection was done during the recent truce, when it was safer for researchers to move about.
The survey, which has a four-point margin of error (rather than the usual three-point), found that almost three-quarters (72%) of all respondents believe Hamas's decision to launch its attack on Israel on October 7 was "correct."
Less than a quarter (22%) said it was "incorrect."
I notice you selectively cut off your usual bulk copy paste right before this part.
"But that doesn't mean support for atrocities, he adds. "No one should see this as support for any atrocities that might have been committed by Hamas on that day."
"Palestinians believe that diplomacy and negotiations are not an option available to them, that only violence and armed struggle is the means to end the siege and blockade over Gaza, and in general to end the Israeli occupation,"
This important distinction is teased out by three of the poll's data points. Almost 80% of respondents told PCPSR researchers that killing women and children in their homes is a war crime.
An even higher number (85%) of respondents said they had not watched videos shown by international news outlets of acts committed by Hamas on October 7 – a figure which may hint at why only 10% of those surveyed said they believed Hamas had committed war crimes that day.
If you're gonna spam copy paste articles you could at least include even the basic general point it's trying to make.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 24, 2023, 08:09:02 AM
I notice you selectively cut off your usual bulk copy paste right before this part.
"But that doesn't mean support for atrocities, he adds. "No one should see this as support for any atrocities that might have been committed by Hamas on that day."
"Palestinians believe that diplomacy and negotiations are not an option available to them, that only violence and armed struggle is the means to end the siege and blockade over Gaza, and in general to end the Israeli occupation,"
This important distinction is teased out by three of the poll's data points. Almost 80% of respondents told PCPSR researchers that killing women and children in their homes is a war crime.
An even higher number (85%) of respondents said they had not watched videos shown by international news outlets of acts committed by Hamas on October 7 – a figure which may hint at why only 10% of those surveyed said they believed Hamas had committed war crimes that day.
If you're gonna spam copy paste articles you could at least include even the basic general point it's trying to make.
So, what does this tell you?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 24, 2023, 07:07:14 AM
"Peace and prosperity" is something only "western progressives" want?
Holy sh*t. This is where your broken logic has lead you? That peace and prosperity are "progressive" values? 😂😂😂
Wow. Anyway Hamas is the clear oppressor. They are oppressing their own people with Iran's help. My point is that, when this is done, if Israel (and others) don't give the Palestinians reason for hope, they will turn right back to violence.
BTW "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are pretty much the same as "peace and prosperity." Glad you think Thomas Jefferson et. al. had a "western progressive" viewpoint.
And what do Palestinians hope for?
Could it be to kill all the Jews?
Or are you going to tell me they want a version of the United States Constitution?
--
Wartime Poll: Results of an Opinion Poll Among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-Among-Palestinians-in-the-West-Bank-and-Gaza-Strip
75% of Palestinians support the Hamas-led slaughter of Oct. 7. Another 11% don't have an opinion.
Neutral about whether it's a good idea to rape and torture, behead, burn alive, and abduct women, men, children, and infants.
Three-quarters of Palestinians think it's a terrific accomplishment.
75% of Palestinians seek the annihilation of Israel. They want a Palestine "from the river to the sea."
17.2% support the two-state solution
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 24, 2023, 08:09:02 AM
I notice you selectively cut off your usual bulk copy paste right before this part.
"But that doesn't mean support for atrocities, he adds. "No one should see this as support for any atrocities that might have been committed by Hamas on that day."
"Palestinians believe that diplomacy and negotiations are not an option available to them, that only violence and armed struggle is the means to end the siege and blockade over Gaza, and in general to end the Israeli occupation,"
This important distinction is teased out by three of the poll's data points. Almost 80% of respondents told PCPSR researchers that killing women and children in their homes is a war crime.
An even higher number (85%) of respondents said they had not watched videos shown by international news outlets of acts committed by Hamas on October 7 – a figure which may hint at why only 10% of those surveyed said they believed Hamas had committed war crimes that day.
If you're gonna spam copy paste articles you could at least include even the basic general point it's trying to make.
Shocking.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 24, 2023, 08:16:46 AM
So, what does this tell you?
That you are intellectually dishonest. But we already knew that.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 24, 2023, 08:16:46 AM
So, what does this tell you?
I've gone into extensive detail about what I think that says in many previous posts.
About you though? That you're the human manifestation of TLDR. Whether that's due to malice or more innocent intellectual emptiness, who can tell really.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2023, 11:04:45 PM
Really? I have several Jewish friends who celebrate both Hanukkah and Christmas. And Agnostics who celebrate Christmas, too. Atheists, I'm not sure.
Interesting. I seriously do not personally know any Jewish person - one who would answer, "Jewish" to the question, "What religion do you follow?" or "What religion do you consider yourself?" who celebrates Christmas. And I know a LOT of Jewish folks, mostly Reform Jews who are hardly super-religious.
But sure, I wouldn't doubt there are some, apparently including your Jewish friends. And there's a whole group that calls itself "Jews For Jesus" - I imagine they celebrate Christmas.
I would guess that a LOT more atheists/agnostics celebrate Christmas than Jews. It's a secular holiday for gift-giving to millions of people who are non-religious - akin to Mother's Day or Valentine's Day or a birthday. I know many "lapsed Christians" who aren't the least bit religious, or even spiritual, who love Christmas but celebrate no other religious holidays.
Anyway, Tony, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Quote from: MU82 on December 24, 2023, 10:07:00 AM
Interesting. I seriously do not personally know any Jewish person - one who would answer, "Jewish" to the question, "What religion do you follow?" or "What religion do you consider yourself?" who celebrates Christmas. And I know a LOT of Jewish folks, mostly Reform Jews who are hardly super-religious.
But sure, I wouldn't doubt there are some, apparently including your Jewish friends. And there's a whole group that calls itself "Jews For Jesus" - I imagine they celebrate Christmas.
I would guess that a LOT more atheists/agnostics celebrate Christmas than Jews. It's a secular holiday for gift-giving to millions of people who are non-religious - akin to Mother's Day or Valentine's Day or a birthday. I know many "lapsed Christians" who aren't the least bit religious, or even spiritual, who love Christmas but celebrate no other religious holidays.
Anyway, Tony, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
I know maybe a half dozen secular/Reform Jews who celebrate Christmas. But I also know a handful of Hindu/Jains, Buddhists, and even a Zoroastrian who celebrate Christmas as well. But they all celebrate it the same way people celebrate Halloween, not actually observing the religious or symbolic meaning behind it and just enjoying the surface celebrations.
Also, to be fair, the Jews mentioned about don't observe any Jewish High Holidays and they certainly don't celebrate Easter
Quote from: JWags85 on December 23, 2023, 01:38:55 PM
I think its varied. I think part of the support for the Kurds in the US is in part their uprising against Syria, their efforts in fighting against ISIS, and their end goal. Meaning I think if Kurdistan was created in some legitimate sense, the Kurds would be happy. They don't need the eradication of Turkey, Syria, or Iraq for that to happen. I think that is a distinctly different situation than a "Free Palestine" end game for many. Also, I think with the exception of the PKK, Kurdish military action has been viewed as just that, military action, instead of terrorist activity with an aim of targeting civilians.
In short, I don't see a "from the river to the sea" mentality in the overall Kurdish aim. Its like if people in the Oklahoma panhandle wanted to secede and be just the Panhandle...but didn't need Oklahoma to be eradicated for that to happen.
As for this, like I mentioned in a previous post, I think it all hinges and is predicated on a Palestinian leadership that is pragmatic, focused on the people, and with a true coexistence in mind. One that views terrorism and antagonism against Israel as problematic and counter productive. I think in doing that, you could see a movement towards what 2005 was supposed to be in Gaza and one that is met with widespread approval in Israel. I can see arguments against it, but I firmly believe the strength and momentum of the Israeli far right movement has directly fed off of Hamas's aggression and Fatah's letting down of the Palestinian people.
Thank you for the response. I'm not sure your distinction between the goal of the Kurds and the Palestinians is accurate. Yes there are extreme elements within Palestinians (e.g. Hamas) that want to unite all of Palestine under Palestinian rule, but the general idea, even the 2017 Hamas charter (I don't trust it), advocate for a Independent Palestinian State along 1967 borders.
Also, regarding Kurdish military action. People are want to align all of the Palestinians with the worst elements amongst them (e.g. Hamas/Islamic Jihad), but do not do so for other groups. Why not assign all Kurds to aligning with the PKK. They have the same fundamental goals, and most Kurdish political and military groups support the PKK.
I think there is a tendency, particularly amongst people from the West, to assign the worst possible traits and elements within the Palestinian cause, as "Palestinian." But for other groups, the Kurds, Kosovo Albanians, and even Israeli politics/movements, we disregard the extreme positions as fringe elements (even when they are running the government), and assign the best intentions/characterizations to these groups we view as allies.
I'm not saying you're doing this, but I see this often as a general trend.
Regarding, the political entities in Palestine. I agree with you that Hamas' leadership has been problematic. But, they took power, to a large part, because of the failure of Palestinian leadership to do anything to stop settler aggression, Israeli incursions/detentions, and to make any progress towards an independent state. Even after Hamas took power, they were able to support it, because Hamas made fortunes off investing, and direct payments to Hamas (by outside nations) that Israel supported, in part to keep Hamas in power (It has been reported that Netanyahu's plan was to keep this funding flowing to stop the establishment of a more neutral and powerful Palestinian government).
I really think the UN needs to step in and implement a true 2-state solution. That is, if we want to see lasting peace in the area, and not an annihilation of either people.
Quote from: MU82 on December 24, 2023, 10:07:00 AM
Interesting. I seriously do not personally know any Jewish person - one who would answer, "Jewish" to the question, "What religion do you follow?" or "What religion do you consider yourself?" who celebrates Christmas. And I know a LOT of Jewish folks, mostly Reform Jews who are hardly super-religious.
But sure, I wouldn't doubt there are some, apparently including your Jewish friends. And there's a whole group that calls itself "Jews For Jesus" - I imagine they celebrate Christmas.
I would guess that a LOT more atheists/agnostics celebrate Christmas than Jews. It's a secular holiday for gift-giving to millions of people who are non-religious - akin to Mother's Day or Valentine's Day or a birthday. I know many "lapsed Christians" who aren't the least bit religious, or even spiritual, who love Christmas but celebrate no other religious holidays.
Anyway, Tony, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Thanks,Mike. Happy, healthy New Year to you and your family
Poll of what Israelis think
Poll taken Dec 11 to 13
https://en.idi.org.il/media/22311/war-in-gaza-7-_data_eng.pdf
To what extent should Israel take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Gaza when planning the continuation of the fighting there?
Jews
Not at all 40.4%
Fairly small extent 40.7%
fairly large extent 11.4%
very large extent 4.5%
Don't know 3%
What do you think is the likelihood that Israel will achieve each of the two main goals of the war as defined by the government?
Destroying Hamas's military and political infrastructure:
Jews
Very high likelihood 24.8%
Fairly high likelihood 46.7%
Fairly low likelihood 20.3%
Very low likelihood 4.0%
Don't know 4.2%
Bringing all the hostages home:
Jews
Very high likelihood 9.0%
Fairly high likelihood 23.9%
Fairly low likelihood 43.8%
Very low likelihood 14.8%
Don't know 8.5%
Some people have predicted that after the war, a wave of mass civil protests will break out in Israel calling for the political and military leaders responsible
for the failure of October 7 to be held to account. Do you think that you personally will participate in such protests?
Jews
Certain I will 25.0%
Think I will 18.9%
Think I won't 20.0%
Certain I won't 26.8%
Don't know 9.3%
In your opinion, to what extent is the IDF endeavoring to ensure that its military actions in Gaza obey international law and the rules of war?
Jews
To a very large extent 52.7%
To a fairly large extent 38.8%
To a fairly small extent 3.6%
To a very small extent/Not at all 0.7%
Don't know 4.2%
In many Western countries there have been mass demonstrations and loud public criticism against Israel for its conduct during the war in Gaza. What do
you think is the main reason for this?
Jews
The civilian casualties and destruction inflicted during the war against Hamas in Gaza 7.5%
Antisemitism and hatred of Israel 62.1%
Both reasons equally 22.4%
Other: 6.6%
Don't know 1.4%
-------------------------------------------------
My summary
They are committed to making Hamas unable to ever kill another Jew again, despite the cost of Gazans. October 7 was a real change in opinion in Israel, maybe one of the biggest in its 75-year history. "Never again." This is a fight for their survival.
They do not care what "serious people" in the West think, they think they are antisemitic and are ignored.
So the focus is making Hamas, and Palestinians in general, unable to keep killing Jews.
That is what they think is victory.
Claudine Gay Turmoil Forces Harvard's Secretive 'Corporation' Into Spotlight
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/24/us/harvard-corporation-claudine-gay.html
Harvard's powerful board has backed its president and said little else, yet a member privately said "generational change" may be needed.
Harvard's board is led by Ms. Pritzker, who was an early backer of Barack Obama's presidency and later served as secretary of commerce under his administration. Despite her leadership role, Ms. Pritzker, a champion of Dr. Gay's, has not spoken publicly since the controversy began, leaving the corporation to communicate through a single public statement.
---
"The corporation should have done their homework, and apparently they did not," said Avi Loeb, a Harvard science professor who has been publicly critical of the school's response after the Hamas attack on Israel in which about 1,200 people were killed.
"They don't engage in criticism the way they should," Mr. Loeb said of the corporation. "They don't want the people who disagree with them to speak with them."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 26, 2023, 01:29:22 PM
Claudine Gay Turmoil Forces Harvard's Secretive 'Corporation' Into Spotlight
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/24/us/harvard-corporation-claudine-gay.html
Harvard's powerful board has backed its president and said little else, yet a member privately said "generational change" may be needed.
Harvard's board is led by Ms. Pritzker, who was an early backer of Barack Obama's presidency and later served as secretary of commerce under his administration. Despite her leadership role, Ms. Pritzker, a champion of Dr. Gay's, has not spoken publicly since the controversy began, leaving the corporation to communicate through a single public statement.
---
"The corporation should have done their homework, and apparently they did not," said Avi Loeb, a Harvard science professor who has been publicly critical of the school's response after the Hamas attack on Israel in which about 1,200 people were killed.
"They don't engage in criticism the way they should," Mr. Loeb said of the corporation. "They don't want the people who disagree with them to speak with them."
What does that have to do with the war in Israel?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on December 26, 2023, 01:36:07 PM
What does that have to do with the war in Israel?
About the same as your 50 posts about Elon.
We all have our Jewish Space Lasers
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 26, 2023, 05:16:09 PM
About the same as your 50 posts about Elon.
We all have our Jewish Space Lasers
So, nothing?
Netanyahu says he wants to relocate all Palestinians in Gaza through "voluntary migration".
Interesting.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 26, 2023, 05:16:09 PM
About the same as your 50 posts about Elon.
We all have our Jewish Space Lasers
Musk, MTG, Tucker, Trump and the like were mentioned in response to those who think antisemites are all "western progressives."
Curiously, many Scoop defenders of Judaism not only avoid criticizing the Jew-haters in their tribe, they also defend and support them.
I wonder what those Israeli Jews would have answered if one of the poll questions was about Musk endorsing antisemitic posts on the social media site that he has turned into a Jew-haters' paradise.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 26, 2023, 07:11:40 PM
Netanyahu says he wants to relocate all Palestinians in Gaza through "voluntary migration".
Interesting.
Blatant ethnic cleansing. Not even trying to hide it anymore.
https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 26, 2023, 11:08:40 PM
Blatant ethnic cleansing. Not even trying to hide it anymore.
https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510
This is the opinion of a geologist from a university.
Hayom reported that Bibi wanted to move civilians into the Sinai to get them out of harms way. Bibi also floated this idea two months ago.
How do this constitutes ethnic cleansing? It was Hamas that ethnically cleansed Gaza by making the Jews dig up their cemeteries.
Do you and Jes wish you live in NYC so you can tear down poster of Israel hostages?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 27, 2023, 12:14:45 AM
This is the opinion of a geologist from a university.
Hayom reported that Bibi wanted to move civilians into the Sinai to get them out of harms way. Bibi also floated this idea two months ago.
How do this constitutes ethnic cleansing? It was Hamas that ethnically cleansed Gaza by making the Jews dig up their cemeteries.
Do you and Jes wish you live in NYC so you can tear down poster of Israel hostages?
Yes, of course we all do.
You have gone way past embarrassing yourself in the thread.
They are not stopping until Hamas, and all the Palestinian organizations with guns, are simply unable to kill Jews again.
And whatever "serious people" think will have absolutely no influence on them.
And like I wrote earlier, some day "serious people" will grow bored if this conflict, they will stopping caring about the dead palestinians, because that's what "serious people" have done with every other similar situation (again, see Dafur, it is the worst it has ever been today, where are all the college protests about that?), and Israel will return to its October 6th reputation and with neighbors that lack the ability to kill Jews.
—-
As World's Gaze Shifts to Gaza, Israel's Psyche Remains Defined by Oct. 7 Attack
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/26/world/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-politics-mood.html
Hamas's brutal raid and taking of hostages has left Israelis deeply traumatized and is expected to reshape the country for years to come.
The Oct. 7 attack on Israel has prompted soul-searching on the Israeli left, undermining faith in a shared future with Palestinians. It has created a crisis of confidence on the Israeli right, sapping support for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. It has drawn ultra-Orthodox Jews, often ambivalent about their relationship to the Israeli state, closer to the mainstream.
Across religious and political divides, Israelis are coming to terms with what the Hamas-led terrorist attack meant for Israel as a state, for Israelis as a society, and for its citizens as individuals. Just as Israel's failures in the 1973 Arab-Israeli war ultimately upended its political and cultural life, the Oct. 7 assault and its aftershocks are expected to reshape Israel for years to come.
—-
For now, the assault has also unified Israeli society to a degree that felt inconceivable on Oct. 6, when Israelis were deeply divided by Mr. Netanyahu's efforts to reduce the power of the courts; by a dispute about the role of religion in public life; and by Mr. Netanyahu's own political future.
Throughout this year, Israeli leaders had warned of civil war. Yet in an instant on Oct. 7, Israelis of all stripes found common cause in what they saw as an existential fight for Israel's future. Since then, they have been collectively stung by international criticism of Israel's retaliation in Gaza.
Guess who pays for this...
Switzerland's Parliament recently voted to stop funding UNRWA ($21 million annually), labelled Hamas a terrorist organization and unanimously banned it. "Hamas' brutal terrorist attacks against Israel necessitate a clear position from Switzerland," they said.
In 2018, the Trump administration, calling UNRWA an "irredeemably flawed operation," completely cut America's $300 million annual donation. The aid was reinstated by President Joe Biden almost immediately after he took office.
———
How UNRWA Grooms Terrorists
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20258/unwra-grooms-terrorists
By providing the residents of the Gaza Strip with various services, UNRWA exempted Hamas from its responsibilities as the governing body, such as creating a working economy that would pay for education and healthcare, and allowed it, instead, to invest resources in building tunnels and manufacturing weapons.
"They [UNRWA] teach us that the Al-Aqsa Mosque belongs to us [Muslims], that Palestine belongs to us," said Atif Sharha, a student at an UNRWA school.
"Yes, they teach us that the Zionists are our enemy," said Nur Taha, a third-year student from Kalandia. "We should carry out an [terror] operation against them [Zionists]."
"The Palestinian matriculation exams [at UNRWA] have become a finishing school in extremism. It is as if the Palestinian Authority is cramming as much hate into the tests as possible, to ensure the twelve previous years of indoctrination stay with them into adulthood." — Marcus Sheff, CEO at the Institute for Cultural Peace and Tolerance in School Education, i24news.tv, July 23, 2023.
Despite years of considerable condemnation of the textbooks, newly produced editions, approved by UNRWA, are exponentially worse....
Whatever hopes that anyone may have held for the trustworthiness of UNRWA have long expired, and were arguably misplaced at the outset. UNRWA, in its current state, has proven itself irremediably defective, unworkable and yet another massive stain on the already scandalously stained UN.
It is high time for the international community and those who actually want a better future for the Palestinians to liquidate UNRWA and take actions that truly help the Palestinians move forward to a golden life.
Quote from: Jockey on December 27, 2023, 12:33:11 AM
Yes, of course we all do.
You have gone way past embarrassing yourself in the thread.
Because not only is he not serious, he's blatantly dishonest with a track record of being wildly inaccurate.
It's why people way smarter than me just ignore him.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on December 26, 2023, 11:08:40 PM
Blatant ethnic cleansing. Not even trying to hide it anymore.
https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510
Not really. I think there's a goal of landing people in a place that has a stable government because Palestine/Gaza has proven incapable of governing themselves. Sadly their neighbors don't want Gazans, which I empathize with.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 27, 2023, 12:14:45 AM
This is the opinion of a geologist from a university.
Hayom reported that Bibi wanted to move civilians into the Sinai to get them out of harms way. Bibi also floated this idea two months ago.
How do this constitutes ethnic cleansing? It was Hamas that ethnically cleansed Gaza by making the Jews dig up their cemeteries.
Do you and Jes wish you live in NYC so you can tear down poster of Israel hostages?
Why would we need to do that? We get to watch people "tear down poster" every day in this thread through the pile on about your incoherence.
I hope you have a lovely new year NASP, hopefully you can make some positive improvements about your intellectual arrogance.
Intel is betting big money that Gaza will not be a problem for this investment.
———-
December 26, 2023
Intel will build $25 billion chip factory in Israel's 'largest investment ever'
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/26/tech/intel-israel-investment/index.html
The Israeli government and Intel confirmed plans to build a $25 billion chipmaking factory in the south of the country, an investment Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has described as the biggest in Israel's history.
The American tech giant already employs 11,700 people in Israel and has invested more than $50 billion in the country over the last 50 years.
Intel now wants to expand its existing chipmaking factory at Kiryat Gat — about 16 miles northeast of Gaza — undeterred by the October 7 attacks and the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas. Reuters earlier reported the news.
"Intel has chosen to approve an unprecedented investment of $25 billion and to establish its new factory right here in Israel," Israel's finance minister Bezalel Smotrich wrote in a post on X on Tuesday.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 27, 2023, 07:17:22 AM
Not really. I think there's a goal of landing people in a place that has a stable government because Palestine/Gaza has proven incapable of governing themselves. Sadly their neighbors don't want Gazans, which I empathize with.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area.
Mind telling me how removing someone from where they live and sticking them elsewhere is not that?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 27, 2023, 12:14:45 AM
Do you and Jes wish you live in NYC so you can tear down poster of Israel hostages?
And when you finish the tearing you have a choice of some really good restaurants.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2023/12/27/uw-la-crosse-chancellor-joe-gow-fired-for-producing-porn-videos-sexy-happy-couple/72038058007/
At least LaCrosse has the balls to do what's right. Harvard, on the other hand, is shameful. aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Either the previous president is feigning ignorance to pretend he doesn't know his words are antisemitic, or he is simply too stoopid to be president. Which is it?
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hitler-poison-blood-history-f8c3ff512edd120252596a4743324352?user_email=6647dfa7189f748384d7389910f7b584c6fcfc35ae990102964c7e826d4175c7&utm_medium=Morning_Wire&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=Morning%20Wire_28%20December_2023&utm_term=Morning%20Wire%20Subscribers
Notable: Even after being told repeatedly that his "poisoning the blood" rhetoric mimicked Hitler, the 91 felony Criminal Defendant has continued to use the phrase.
Because he's an antisemite. Let's charitably go with that over stoopid.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2023, 03:49:57 AM
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2023/12/27/uw-la-crosse-chancellor-joe-gow-fired-for-producing-porn-videos-sexy-happy-couple/72038058007/
At least LaCrosse has the balls to do what's right. Harvard, on the other hand, is shameful. aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Oh, he must be an evangelical
Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2023, 07:31:31 AM
Either the previous president is feigning ignorance to pretend he doesn't know his words are antisemitic, or he is simply too stoopid to be president. Which is it?
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hitler-poison-blood-history-f8c3ff512edd120252596a4743324352?user_email=6647dfa7189f748384d7389910f7b584c6fcfc35ae990102964c7e826d4175c7&utm_medium=Morning_Wire&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=Morning%20Wire_28%20December_2023&utm_term=Morning%20Wire%20Subscribers
Notable: Even after being told repeatedly that his "poisoning the blood" rhetoric mimicked Hitler, the 91 felony Criminal Defendant has continued to use the phrase.
Because he's an antisemite. Let's charitably go with that over stoopid.
Using "poisoning the blood" doesn't make Trump an anti-semite. It makes him a raging racist. It just boggles my mind that many politicians are still hitching their wagon to this guy.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 28, 2023, 08:06:17 AM
Using "poisoning the blood" doesn't make Trump an anti-semite. It makes him a raging racist. It just boggles my mind that many politicians are still hitching their wagon to this guy.
Racism, largely rooted in anti-immigrant sentiment, is a long-standing American tradition.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 28, 2023, 08:12:16 AM
Racism, largely rooted in anti-immigrant sentiment, is a long-standing American world tradition.
FIFY
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2023, 03:49:57 AM
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2023/12/27/uw-la-crosse-chancellor-joe-gow-fired-for-producing-porn-videos-sexy-happy-couple/72038058007/
At least LaCrosse has the balls to do what's right. Harvard, on the other hand, is shameful. aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
I think he was fired for a terribly unoriginal moniker for their online escapades.
Also, can we spin this all to a "Higher Education Administrators are Doomed" thread?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 27, 2023, 03:27:59 AM
Because not only is he not serious, he's blatantly dishonest with a track record of being wildly inaccurate.
It's why people way smarter than me just ignore him.
I've been trying to. Luckily, I think most people just see his posts and move on, mentally.
No need to acknowledge his fantasy world.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 28, 2023, 09:18:24 AM
I think he was fired for a terribly unoriginal moniker for their online escapades.
Also, can we spin this all to a "Higher Education Administrators are Doomed" thread?
Please don't.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 28, 2023, 10:37:56 AM
Please don't.
Id rather let that be an echo chamber than continuing to pollute the thread about the most complex geopolitical event of the last few years.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 28, 2023, 11:28:30 AM
Id rather let that be an echo chamber than continuing to pollute the thread about the most complex geopolitical event of the last few years.
I just mean it hits a little close to home when you say "higher education administrators are doomed." Just get me to retirement at least.
But you are right. Heisey and 4ever turn everything into a culture war. Like Pavlov's dog, they've been conditioned to do this and know no other way.
O, have ya looked at da Marquette Crime thread lately, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2023, 11:57:03 AM
O, have ya looked at da Marquette Crime thread lately, hey?
Which totally wasn't started as a culture war thread. No sir, indeed not.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 28, 2023, 09:32:06 AM
I've been trying to. Luckily, I think most people just see his posts and move on, mentally.
No need to acknowledge his fantasy world.
I'll try to be better about it too. Or just reusing this
https://youtu.be/Y7QZgH1eP2o?si=fzefRO6YX-qow0Bh
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2023, 11:57:03 AM
O, have ya looked at da Marquette Crime thread lately, hey?
Thanks for proving my point.
Yes, butt ur tossin' NASP and me into the all-gone machine and we has nothin' ta do with runnin' off course in da Marquette crime thread. Dat wuz ur posse, hey?
Had to find something else to discuss after the utter lack of crime on campus
Whoops!
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/use-of-incorrect-munition-in-strike-on-gazas-maghazi-camp-cause-of-high-death-toll/
Most deaths of Palestinians in the West Bank since records began in the mid 2000s.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4379981-un-report-israel-unlawful-killings-west-bank/
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2023, 12:45:19 PM
Yes, butt ur tossin' NASP and me into the all-gone machine and we has nothin' ta do with runnin' off course in da Marquette crime thread. Dat wuz ur posse, hey?
I don't have a posse.
But yeah...you created that topic to fight your culture war.
https://x.com/QuantumFlux36/status/1740451122329129314?s=20
The 2-state solution is dead -- luckily, there are already 22 Arab and 57 Muslim states with 10 million+ sq miles of land.
🌸The entire fictional "Palestinian" debacle is a complete lie. Jihad explicitly calls its followers to terrorize, colonize, and ethnically cleanse the world. When seen through this lens, the current conflict and others like it make perfect sense.
🌸Islam currently controls 99.7% of MENA and wants the rest. The indigenous Jewish homeland for over 3000 years (Israel) is the other 0.3%, and the only place minorities live freely.
🌸Jihad explicitly allows for psyops (lies) to accomplish its goals. Jihadist societies create narratives and use them to control people's perceptions and actions.
🌸Many Westerners project themselves on jihadists -- they imagine they have similar Judeo-Christian values of empathy, compassion, honesty, and wanting peace. This is suicidally ethnocentric.
🌸Human neural nets are like AIs, whatever data they are trained on becomes their model for relating to the world. This is why core ideologies and youth education are so critical to world peace.
🌸Due to extreme misunderstanding by the West and the antisemitic malicious intent of many, Gaza became a fully jihadist society fueled with $40 billion in "aid."
🌸Children were taught hate in UN schools, hospitals became terror command centers, construction funds went to terror tunnels and rocket launchers. No efforts were made to create a peaceful, prosperous society.
🌸The West must come to terms with the stark reality that jihadist extremists exist--with outlooks and actions radically different from ours. We must encourage moderates, eliminate extremism, and pursue real, lasting peace for all.
-----
https://x.com/QuantumFlux36/status/1739881490392190994?s=20
☀️The Romans invaded and occupied Judea, then enslaved and scattered us. They renamed Judea "Syria Palaestina", in an attempt to erase our identity.
☀️Our faith was appropriated and mixed with others to create a state religion worshipping a Jew, yet cynically teaching hatred of Jews. This led to vicious waves of pogroms, erupting recently as the Holocaust.
☀️A similar state cult in Mecca launched vast conquests of brutal murder, forced conversions, and destruction of temples, cultures, and entire faiths.
☀️The Arab conquests killed untold millions, ethnically cleansed nearly all of MENA, and decimated minorities including Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and Jews.
☀️Israel is just 0.3% of MENA's 10 million sq miles, and is the only part where minorities can live freely. The current conflict is due solely to Arabs wanting to ethnically cleanse non-Muslims.
☀️This violent intolerance is a primal stain on Western civilization. It goes directly against our professed ideals. Our society is in danger until we fully see it and commit to evolving beyond it.
☀️We must fully expose the intrinsic religious hate built into our societies, reverse it, and attempt to live up to our highest ideals in the light of actual truth.
----------
https://x.com/QuantumFlux36/status/1739347547595092030?s=20
☢️Bethlehem, whose Christian population went from 90% to 12% under Arab control, has "cancelled Christmas" in the name of jihad.
☢️Jews can't safely go their places of worship in the US, EU, and around the world -- in 2023. They can't safely walk down the street and "look" Jewish.
☢️So-called "liberals" call for the annihilation of Jews in the streets and in "elite" "colleges".
☢️The UN and mass media support genocidal jihadists who want to wipe out all minorities, and replace Judaism and Christianity with Islam.
☢️May the world wake up to the toxic effects of extremism and antisemitism in time to fight back and save ourselves and our societies.
------
https://x.com/QuantumFlux36/status/1739063298941948114?s=20
🚀The world gave Gaza $40 Billion, Hamas leaders kept billions and used the rest for terror tunnels, rocket launchers, and hate indoctrination. The UN and NGOs stood by and let it happen.
🚀Million have been killed in Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Sudan -- but nobody marched in the streets. The obsession with Gaza is fueled solely by religious hate.
🚀Arabs launched their jihad colonization efforts 1300 years ago by killing Jews in Saudi Arabia and eventually occupied, and ethnically cleansed nearly the entire Middle-East.
🚀Israel is just 0.3% of the Middle-East and is the only place minorities are free. Both Rome and Mecca created state religions that wiped out or suppressed all minority faiths.
🚀The conflict is solely about jihad, replacement theology, and religious hate. Jihadist culture supports creating webs of lies to hide its' intentions.
🚀The only way to real peace is to remove hate indoctrination and extremism from all aspects of our societies. May we do so quickly!
As if there aren't enough problems in the world to focus on, the Republicans in congress are now seeking to punish a University for their choice of leadership:
Virginia Foxx's (Republican from North Carolina) letter requested a "written response" by December 29 to produce a series of documents such as "all documents and communications concerning the initial allegations of plagiarism and the 'independent review'" of Gay's scholarship, including "all meeting minutes, transcripts, notes, coordinating communications, memoranda or other materials."
This is chilling, as I can easily imagine these fools going after other schools if they felt it would make for good headlines. Maybe even Marquette for the firing of that crazy professor a few years back. The moral of the story is to let Harvard choose who they want to lead their University and stay out of it (I think it's called academic freedom or something like that). Congress should not be completing an "independent review" of any academic leaders. Disagree with them fine, but this is going too far.
This would be a daily occurrence if the orange chimp is elected.
Chilling stuff.
Heisey, why did you copy and past a bunch of tweets from an AI bot account?
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 29, 2023, 02:57:04 PM
Heisey, why did you copy and past a bunch of tweets from an AI bot account?
lol
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 29, 2023, 02:57:04 PM
Heisey, why did you copy and past a bunch of tweets from an AI bot account?
He just looks for anything that agrees with his quite disgusting racial and religious hate speech. I'm not surprised that all came from an AI bot, as most people have the good sense to not post such hatred.
Quote from: forgetful on December 29, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
He just looks for anything that agrees with his quite disgusting racial and religious hate speech. I'm not surprised that all came from an AI bot, as most people have the good sense to not post such hatred.
Which is why Heisey posted it.
Quote from: forgetful on December 29, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
He just looks for anything that agrees with his quite disgusting racial and religious hate speech. I'm not surprised that all came from an AI bot, as most people have the good sense to not post such hatred.
Speaking of racial and religious hatred .... But, hey, it's just Jew-hatred, so this doesn't count.
Europe on alert for New Year's Eve terror as France deploys 90,000 cops amid 'very high risk' of attacks
https://www.the-sun.com/news/9967877/
Officials have increased security measures in landmarks, churches and Christmas markets
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 29, 2023, 08:03:17 PM
Speaking of racial and religious hatred .... But, hey, it's just Jew-hatred, so this doesn't count.
Ah yes...another dishonest strawman argument.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 29, 2023, 02:57:04 PM
Heisey, why did you copy and past a bunch of tweets from an AI bot account?
Apparently, you read the first sentence and then closed your mind ... it is typical to ignore around here ...
It takes interviews from YT and summarizes them.
They are from Douglas Murray, Sam Harris, and Caroline Glick
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 29, 2023, 08:11:03 PM
Apparently, you read the first sentence and then closed your mind ... it is typical to ignore around here ...
It takes interviews from YT and summarizes them.
They are from Douglas Murray, Sam Harris, and Caroline Glick
You didn't answer the question.
EDIT: And of course three authors who have been each been described as "Islamophobic" at various times. No wonder you gravitate toward AI generated tweets based on their interviews.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 29, 2023, 04:15:31 PM
Res ipsa loquitur
Just because NSP posted AI output doesn't mean you need to come posting Captchas in here
Quote from: JWags85 on December 29, 2023, 11:08:28 PM
Just because NSP posted AI output doesn't mean you need to come posting Captchas in here
I'm actually just an AI bot.
'The corpses tell the story': New details of Hamas's sexual violence against Israeli women revealed
Repetitive patterns of abuse and violence marked on Israeli women and girls' bodies found in different locations indicate what happened was neither random nor isolated
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/new-details-hamass-sexual-violence-against-israeli-women
Related
U.S. approves $147.5 million weapons sale to Israel
The Biden administration bypassed Congress again to approve the sale as Israeli military presses on with an intensive assault by land, air and sea across Gaza.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna131667
----
Hamas has to be destroyed.
As far as the Palestinians in Gaza, you support them, so either change your opinion, get out of the way, or accept the consequences.
Germans suffered the same consequence with Nazis
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
The survey was conducted from Nov. 22 to Dec. 2 among 1,231 people in the West Bank and Gaza and had an error margin of 4 percentage points. In Gaza, poll workers conducted 481 in-person interviews during a weeklong cease-fire that ended Dec. 1.
Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas' claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.
Thank goodness our president isn't waiting around for this do-nothing Congress to help Israel.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 29, 2023, 08:15:52 PM
You didn't answer the question.
EDIT: And of course three authors who have been each been described as "Islamophobic" at various times. No wonder you gravitate toward AI generated tweets based on their interviews.
Sam Harris has already responded to this criticism, and he describes you well ... as you are a caricature (or maybe an AI bot) of a Western Progressive.
December 6, 2023
https://www.samharris.org/blog/what-is-islamophobia
What is Islamophobia? Someone once said on the Internet, it's a word "invented by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons," and that's not far from the truth. There is no question that the term has been designed to confuse people. Its purpose is to conflate any criticism of Islam, which is a doctrine of religious beliefs, with bigotry against Muslims as people. In fact, it equates secularism itself—the commitment to keeping religion out of our laws and public policy—with hatred. The term is now being widely used in the mainstream media, and it is making it impossible to speak honestly about the consequences of dangerous ideas.
Let's be clear about what is real here and what is fake: Racism is real. There are white supremacists in America, for instance. And, of course, these imbeciles can be counted upon to hate immigrants from Muslim-majority countries—Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis, etc.—and to hate them for their superficial characteristics, like the color of their skin. This is detestable. But these people hate non-Muslim immigrants too—for instance, Hindus from India—and for the same reasons. We already have words like "racism" and "xenophobia" to cover this problem. Inventing a new term like "Islamophobia" doesn't give us license to say that there is a new form of hatred in the world.
There is no race of Muslims. Islam is a system of ideas, subscribed to by people of every race and ethnicity. It's just like Christianity in that regard. Christianity and Islam are both aggressively missionary faiths, and they win converts from everywhere. People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people. There's no such thing as "Christophobia." If you criticize Christianity—and I've written an entire book excoriating Christianity—no one accuses you of being a racist against people from Brazil, or Mexico, or Ethiopia, or the Philippines. But even the New York Times will use the term "Islamophobia" as a synonym for racism against Arabs. This is pure delusion and propaganda. There are Christian Arabs. And I could become a Muslim in 5 minutes just by converting to the faith.
It doesn't address anything I said since I didn't call him racist.
You really have trouble with basic reading don't you.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 30, 2023, 12:07:38 PM
It doesn't address anything I said since I didn't call him racist.
You really have trouble with basic reading don't you.
So now you agree there is no such thing as Islamophobia?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 30, 2023, 12:11:30 PM
So now you agree there is no such thing as Islamophobia?
Nope. Logic fail (again) by Heisey.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 30, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Nope. Logic fail (again) by Heisey.
(https://cdn2.manhattanprep.com/gre/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2013/09/inigomontoyameme.jpg)
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 30, 2023, 12:04:34 PM
Sam Harris has already responded to this criticism, and he describes you well ... as you are a caricature (or maybe an AI bot) of a Western Progressive.
December 6, 2023
https://www.samharris.org/blog/what-is-islamophobia
What is Islamophobia? Someone once said on the Internet, it's a word "invented by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons," and that's not far from the truth. There is no question that the term has been designed to confuse people. Its purpose is to conflate any criticism of Islam, which is a doctrine of religious beliefs, with bigotry against Muslims as people. In fact, it equates secularism itself—the commitment to keeping religion out of our laws and public policy—with hatred. The term is now being widely used in the mainstream media, and it is making it impossible to speak honestly about the consequences of dangerous ideas.
Let's be clear about what is real here and what is fake: Racism is real. There are white supremacists in America, for instance. And, of course, these imbeciles can be counted upon to hate immigrants from Muslim-majority countries—Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis, etc.—and to hate them for their superficial characteristics, like the color of their skin. This is detestable. But these people hate non-Muslim immigrants too—for instance, Hindus from India—and for the same reasons. We already have words like "racism" and "xenophobia" to cover this problem. Inventing a new term like "Islamophobia" doesn't give us license to say that there is a new form of hatred in the world.
There is no race of Muslims. Islam is a system of ideas, subscribed to by people of every race and ethnicity. It's just like Christianity in that regard. Christianity and Islam are both aggressively missionary faiths, and they win converts from everywhere. People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people. There's no such thing as "Christophobia." If you criticize Christianity—and I've written an entire book excoriating Christianity—no one accuses you of being a racist against people from Brazil, or Mexico, or Ethiopia, or the Philippines. But even the New York Times will use the term "Islamophobia" as a synonym for racism against Arabs. This is pure delusion and propaganda. There are Christian Arabs. And I could become a Muslim in 5 minutes just by converting to the faith.
Spot on. I'd love to hear a cogent rebuttal to Mr Harris but I won't hold my breath.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 12:34:37 PM
Spot on. I'd love to hear a cogent rebuttal to Mr Harris but I won't hold my breath.
Oh come on. Don't be a nitwit.
Of course Islamophobia can be (and is) a thing. Just like Christianophobia can be a thing. It's not "racist" per se because Muslims come in many races, like Christians, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Furthermore using that article to rebut the fact that he is using Islamophobes to prop up a hilariously poor argument is nonsensical.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 12:34:37 PM
Spot on. I'd love to hear a cogent rebuttal to Mr Harris but I won't hold my breath.
Actually, his argument is remarkably dim. Its based on a flawed premise that hatred and bigotry can only be based on race or ethnicity. It essentially boils down to "Islamophobia not real cuz Muslims not all same race."
By that logic, antisemitism isn't real because not all Jews are the same race. And homophobia isn't real because gay people come from a multitude of ethnic groups.
Honestly, I would expect better from a college freshman, much less Sam Harris.
Then there's the insipid claim that "People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people."
Is he really this dumb, or does he live under a rock? There's an entire media ecosystem out there constantly decrying anti-Christian bigotry.
Here are just a few examples:
https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/
https://www.newsweek.com/acceptable-hate-assaults-christianity-go-overlooked-opinion-1791866
https://www.hudson.org/human-rights/the-war-on-christians
https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/11/ongoing-war-against-christianity-siobhan-nash-marshall.html
https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-christian-hostility-reaching-unprecedented-levels-culture-government-under-biden-observers-warn
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/nbc-declares-war-on-christians
https://churchleaders.com/news/429685-hatred-christianity-animating-forces-other-side-tucker-carlson.html
Quote from: Pakuni on December 30, 2023, 12:52:46 PM
Actually, his argument is remarkably dim. Its based on a flawed premise that hatred and bigotry can only be based on race or ethnicity. It essentially boils down to "Islamophobia not real cuz Muslims not all same race."
By that logic, antisemitism isn't real because not all Jews are the same race. And homophobia isn't real because gay people come from a multitude of ethnic groups.
Honestly, I would expect better from a college freshman, much less Sam Harris.
Then there's the insipid claim that "People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people."
Is he really this dumb, or does he live under a rock? There's an entire media ecosystem out there constantly decrying anti-Christian bigotry.
Here are just a few examples:
https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/
https://www.newsweek.com/acceptable-hate-assaults-christianity-go-overlooked-opinion-1791866
https://www.hudson.org/human-rights/the-war-on-christians
https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/11/ongoing-war-against-christianity-siobhan-nash-marshall.html
https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-christian-hostility-reaching-unprecedented-levels-culture-government-under-biden-observers-warn
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/nbc-declares-war-on-christians
https://churchleaders.com/news/429685-hatred-christianity-animating-forces-other-side-tucker-carlson.html
Yep yep. The fact that we have Scoopers thinking this is a good argument is pretty sad.
Islamophobia isn't real because that would imply some of those here would be egregiously guilty of it
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 30, 2023, 12:49:42 PM
Oh come on. Don't be a nitwit.
Of course Islamophobia can be (and is) a thing. Just like Christianophobia can be a thing. It's not "racist" per se because Muslims come in many races, like Christians, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Furthermore using that article to rebut the fact that he is using Islamophobes to prop up a hilariously poor argument is nonsensical.
Sam Harris and I are nitwits and you're not. That's your cogent argument. Just what I expected.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 01:02:20 PM
Sam Harris and I are nitwits and you're not. That's your cogent argument. Just what I expected.
Ah. You read the first paragraph, but not the rest.
But yeah. If you support what Harris wrote, both of you are nitwits.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 01:02:20 PM
Sam Harris and I are nitwits and you're not. That's your cogent argument. Just what I expected.
If you think Islamophobia isn't real, then yes
Quote from: Pakuni on December 30, 2023, 12:52:46 PM
Actually, his argument is remarkably dim. Its based on a flawed premise that hatred and bigotry can only be based on race or ethnicity. It essentially boils down to "Islamophobia not real cuz Muslims not all same race."
By that logic, antisemitism isn't real because not all Jews are the same race. And homophobia isn't real because gay people come from a multitude of ethnic groups.
Honestly, I would expect better from a college freshman, much less Sam Harris.
Then there's the insipid claim that "People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people."
Is he really this dumb, or does he live under a rock? There's an entire media ecosystem out there constantly decrying anti-Christian bigotry.
Here are just a few examples:
https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/
https://www.newsweek.com/acceptable-hate-assaults-christianity-go-overlooked-opinion-1791866
https://www.hudson.org/human-rights/the-war-on-christians
https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/11/ongoing-war-against-christianity-siobhan-nash-marshall.html
https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-christian-hostility-reaching-unprecedented-levels-culture-government-under-biden-observers-warn
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/nbc-declares-war-on-christians
https://churchleaders.com/news/429685-hatred-christianity-animating-forces-other-side-tucker-carlson.html
You're using opinion pieces from people and sources that you, Sultan and the rest of your squad would mock as ridiculous to prove that "Christianophobia" exists? That's hilarious. And dimwitted.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 01:06:54 PM
You're using opinion pieces from people and sources that you, Sultan and the rest of your squad would mock as ridiculous to prove that "Christianophobia" exists? That's hilarious. And dimwitted.
You didn't follow his argument. Maybe read more than a couple sentences Chicos.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 01:06:54 PM
You're using opinion pieces from people and sources that you, Sultan and the rest of your squad would mock as ridiculous to prove that "Christianophobia" exists? That's hilarious. And dimwitted.
Nice rebuttal, with the added personal insult to really drive home your lack of a thoughtful retort.
To be clear- something which I thought should be obvious- I don't post those links to assert the content as true, but rather as evidence that disproves Harris' blatantly false claim.
And lastly, I hope you can at least recognize the irony of you mocking "opinion pieces" while defending Harris' opinion piece.
Stay classy, Lenny.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 30, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Nice rebuttal, with the added personal insult to really drive home your lack of a thoughtful retort.
To be clear- something which I thought should be obvious- I don't post those links to assert the content as true, but rather as evidence that disproves Harris' blatantly false claim.
And lastly, I hope you can at least recognize the irony of you mocking "opinion pieces" while defending Harris' opinion piece.
Stay classy, Lenny.
Sorry about the "dimwit" comment - should have gone to sultan who started with that insult.
Just so I understand. You cited the sources that you did to prove that some people think that "Christianophobia" is a thing. OK. Some people think it's a thing. But you don't agree with them. Neither do I. Neither would Sam Harris.
Why do you feel differently about Islamophobia?
Of course Chiristianophobia is a thing. Why wouldn't it be?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 30, 2023, 01:53:30 PM
Of course Chiristianophobia is a thing. Why wouldn't it be?
Because that would be devastating to the argument.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 01:43:45 PM
Sorry about the "dimwit" comment - should have gone to sultan who started with that insult.
Just so I understand. You cited the sources that you did to prove that some people think that "Christianophobia" is a thing. OK. Some people think it's a thing. But you don't agree with them. Neither do I. Neither would Sam Harris.
Why do you feel differently about Islamophobia?
First, you shouldn't assume what I believe. I very much think anti-Christian bigotry exists. Not in the way Fox News and the right-wing media portrays it (i.e. War on Christmas nonsense) but there are absolutely places in the world where you'll be discriminated against or persecuted for being Christian.
I'm surprised to learn you disagree with that.
Second, you're mischaracterizing Harris' statement. He didn't just write that "Christianophobia" isn't a thing (in and of itself false). He writes that "no one" suggests criticism of Christian influence on politics = Christian bigotry. That's entirely false. We hear that all the time. Ill offer more examples if you wish, including from a certain former president a few days ago. Heck, we have a member of the Supreme Court (looking at you, Justice Gorsuch) obsessed with the idea that American Christians face wide discrimination.
So, Harris is wrong on two counts. Anti-Christian discrimination does exist and people (mostly on the right) often conflate criticism of Christian influence with bigotry.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 30, 2023, 01:53:30 PM
Of course Chiristianophobia is a thing. Why wouldn't it be?
If it is, then those who believe Christianity (or any other religion(s) are responsible for a lot of the world's ills (Rico and plenty of others on Scoop) are bigots on a major scale. I don't believe that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2023, 02:35:11 PM
If it is, then those who believe Christianity (or any other religion(s) are responsible for a lot of the world's ills (Rico and plenty of others on Scoop) are bigots on a major scale. I don't believe that.
Neither do I. Because expressing a negative opinion of Christianity's influence on history (or present times) is not bigotry.
If I said the Catholic church has a history of overlooking pedophilia, that wouldn't be bigotry. It would be stating a fact. Now, if I said Catholicism is pro-child rape, that would be bigoted.
Likewise, saying that Islam has been used to nspire terrorism isn't a bigoted statement. It's a fact. But saying Muslims are terrorists is indeed Islamophobic.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 30, 2023, 02:54:36 PM
if I said Catholicism is pro-child rape, that would be bigoted.
That's ridiculous. We all know it's agnostic to child rape.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 30, 2023, 02:54:36 PM
If I said the Catholic church has a history of overlooking pedophilia, that wouldn't be bigotry. It would be stating a fact. Now, if I said Catholicism is pro-child rape, that would be bigoted.
Likewise, saying that Islam has been used to nspire terrorism isn't a bigoted statement. It's a fact. But saying Muslims are terrorists is indeed Islamophobic.
Bingo.
Thousands of Christians have been killed in Nigeria over the past decade, 100's were killed on Christmas. Why? Because they were Christian, and the group that attacks them for sport hate Christians.
That is an example of Christian-aphobia, or anti-Christian hate.
There are many in this nation that hate Catholics. They have Catholic-aphobia, or anti-Catholic hate.
Denying these things exist is frankly odd, it is a fact.
I might be willing to meet you half-way if you said the moniker "Islamaphobia" is dumb, because it is a phrase used to make it seem less aggressive than similar hate words, like racist, or bigot, e.g. they don't hate them, they just fear them. The reality is the word is used to soften the criticism of those that hate muslims.
Islamaphobia is real. It is widespread. I've known Sikhs who were brutally attacked, or treated poorly, because people thought they were Muslim...nothing else, just that they were Muslim.
Those that deny it, need to look deep down and try to figure out why they are ok with hatred towards Muslims, and deny it as an problem/issue.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 30, 2023, 04:19:08 PM
That's ridiculous. We all know it's agnostic to child rape.
Interesting that this attempt at humor came up.
Harris addressed this too about those who are willing to defend the term Islamophobia as a thing.
---
When The Book of Mormon became the most celebrated musical in the United States, the LDS Church protested by placing ads for their faith in the program. That might have been a wasted effort: but it was also a charming sign of good humor. Yes, there are crazy and dangerous people in every faith—and I often hear from them. But what is true of Mormonism is true of every other religion, with a single exception. Can you imagine staging a similar play about Islam anywhere on Earth? No you cannot—unless you also imagine the creators of that play being hunted for the rest of their lives by religious maniacs. You also have to imagine Muslims by the hundreds of thousands, in dozens of countries, going absolutely berserk.
At this moment in history, there is only one religion that systematically stifles free expression with credible threats of violence. The truth is, we have already lost our First Amendment freedoms with respect to Islam. We lost them decades ago—and anyone who is tempted to cry "Islamophobia" at this point, shares the blame for this. This status quo is intolerable—and, most important, it should be intolerable to Muslims themselves. They should be mortified that their community is so uniquely combustible. So uniquely uncivil. So incapable of self-reflection and self-criticism. So dangerously childish. So desperate to make the whole world it's safe space.
Consider what is actually happening: Some percentage of the world's Muslims—and it is not just extremists—are demanding that all non-Muslims conform to Islamic law. And while they might not immediately resort to violence in their protests, they threaten it. Carrying a sign through the streets of London that reads "Behead Those Who Insult the Prophet" might still count as an example of peaceful protest, but it is also an assurance that infidel blood would be shed if the thug holding the sign only had more power. Wherever Muslims do have real power, this grotesque promise is always fulfilled. To make a film, or stage a play, or write a novel critical of Islam in any Muslim-majority country, is as sure a method of suicide as the laws of physics allow. There is only one religion on Earth that has normalized this level of fanaticism. And it isn't an expression of bigotry to notice that this is totally antithetical to everything that civilized people value in the 21st century.
The October 7th attacks in Israel changed the way many of us think about the vulnerability of open societies. They changed the way we think about immigration and failures of assimilation. And they revealed a level of moral confusion in our universities and other institutions that is as astonishing as it is masochistic. We have people who are ostensibly committed to women's rights, and gay rights, and trans rights, mindlessly supporting people who would hurl them from rooftops or beat them to death with their own hands. It is not a sign of bigotry to notice this hypocrisy and moral confusion for what it is.
It really is possible to be critical of Israel, and to be committed to the political rights of the Palestinian people, without denying the reality of Islamic religious fanaticism—or the threat that it poses not just to Israel, but to open societies everywhere.
There have been nearly 50,000 acts of Islamic terrorism in the last 40 years—and the French group that maintains a database of these attacks considers that to be an undercount. Ninety percent of them have occurred in Muslim countries. Most have nothing to do with Israel or Jews. There have been 82 attacks in France and over 2000 in Pakistan during this period. Do you want France to be more like Pakistan? You just need more jihadists. You just need more people susceptible to becoming jihadists. You just need a wider Muslim community that won't condemn jihadism, but pretends that the theology that inspires it will be true and perfect until the end of the world. You just need millions of people who will protest Israel for defending itself, or call for the deaths of cartoonists for depicting the prophet Muhammad, and yet not make a peep about the jihadist atrocities that occur daily, all over the world, in the name of their religion.
LOL. So Harris' argument is "there is no such thing as 'Islamophobia' because we are right to be concerned about Muslims?"
That's a 100% bigoted argument, and you are a bigot if you agree with it. So congrats?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 30, 2023, 02:54:36 PM
Neither do I. Because expressing a negative opinion of Christianity's influence on history (or present times) is not bigotry.
If I said the Catholic church has a history of overlooking pedophilia, that wouldn't be bigotry. It would be stating a fact. Now, if I said Catholicism is pro-child rape, that would be bigoted.
Likewise, saying that Islam has been used to nspire terrorism isn't a bigoted statement. It's a fact. But saying Muslims are terrorists is indeed Islamophobic.
Perfection
Heisey is out here quoting Sam Harris on the topic of Islamophobia, I think we can just move on. He isn't a serious person anyway.
Why doesn't he just start quoting Dawkin's or Hitchen's views about religion. They'd be about as unbiased.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 30, 2023, 08:33:16 PM
Heisey is out here quoting Sam Harris on the topic of Islamophobia, I think we can just move on. He isn't a serious smart person anyway.
FIFY
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 30, 2023, 08:15:15 PM
Can you imagine staging a similar play about Islam anywhere on Earth? No you cannot—unless...
Your post had nothing to do with my half-truth.
But I do suggest you check out this movie!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1341167/
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 30, 2023, 09:36:19 PM
Your post had nothing to do with my half-truth.
But I do suggest you check out this movie!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1341167/
Yeah, well in addition to not being serious, he is also Not A Humorous Person.
Per Finance Minister and leader of political party, there are no innocent people in Gaza. Israel should also build settlements once the war is over.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-touts-revival-of-gaza-settlements-after-war-says-no-innocents-in-strip/
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 30, 2023, 09:36:19 PM
Your post had nothing to do with my half-truth.
But I do suggest you check out this movie!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1341167/
What is the difference between a "half-truth" ...
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 30, 2023, 04:19:08 PM
That's ridiculous. We all know it's agnostic to child rape.
And a bigot?
I've been told by a "serious person" that Sam Harris is a bigot. And I'm told by another "serious person" that the attempt above is merely humor.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on December 30, 2023, 11:14:33 PM
Yeah, well in addition to not being serious, he is also Not A Humorous Person.
So when does bigotry become funny?
Answer: when "serious people" direct it at Catholics. Apparently, you can imply any "half truth" you want about Catholics, and you are just funny, not a bigot.
But question a religion that has inspired at least 40,000 acts of terrorism in its name, maybe say a "half-truth" like ... "all mothers in hajibs are agnostic about their children to be martyrs" and that is full-on bigotry
Such is the tortured thinking when living under the oppressor/oppressed matrix worldview.
LOL, that's a lot of words when you could have just said "I didn't get the joke." It's OK. You're not very perceptive. We realize that.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 31, 2023, 08:39:58 AM
Per Finance Minister and leader of political party, there are no innocent people in Gaza. Israel should also build settlements once the war is over.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-touts-revival-of-gaza-settlements-after-war-says-no-innocents-in-strip/
Thinking in Israel has dramatically changed, maybe permanently. This line is critical to understanding what is happening.
On October 6, they were Israeli
On October 8, they were Jewish
Hamas's brutal raid and taking of hostages has left Israelis deeply traumatized and is expected to reshape the country for years to come.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/26/world/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-politics-mood.html
"At that moment, our Israeli identity felt so crushed. It felt like 75 years of sovereignty, of Israeliness, had — in a snap — disappeared," said Dorit Rabinyan, an Israeli novelist.
"We used to be Israelis," she added. "Now we are Jewish."For now, the assault has also unified Israeli society to a degree that felt inconceivable on Oct. 6
----
And now that they are Jewish, the objective is "never again."
They want their neighbors never again to kill Jews. So, either they agree to stop killing them, or Israel will continue until they are utterly incapable of killing Jews again.
And yes, that means it is going to get a lot uglier, and the
Isaelis Jews are ready for that.
See this poll about the titanic change in thinking in Israel.
* Nearly half the country has taken a major shift to the right (presumably, the 49% that have not moved their stance were already on the right).
* 81% see no chance of peace.
There is never going to be a two-state solution. So, their only option is to destroy all Palestinian's ability to kill Jews. So they will keep going and going and going until this is achieved.
* And when they are done destroying Hamas and the Palestinian ability to kill Jews, half the country now wants then wants their war machine turned on Hezbollah in Lebanon to do the same.
December 1
Direct Polls: 81% of Israelis Don't Believe Peace Has a Chance
https://www.jewishpress.com/news/politics/direct-polls-81-of-israelis-dont-believe-peace-has-a-chance/2023/12/01/
On Thursday night, Channel 14 aired the latest findings from the Direct Polls survey, shedding light on Israeli public sentiment amid the Gaza war. According to the survey, 49% of respondents asserted that the October 7 massacre had not altered their political stance,
while 44% indicated a shift toward the right.
Only 8% claimed a move to the left, with 5% expressing uncertainty.The survey delved into
public opinion on the peace process with the "Palestinians" post-war, revealing that a significant 81% majority doubted the possibility of such a development in the future. Notably, 92% of those on the right dismissed any chance for peace, compared to 70% on the left.
Responding to the question of Hezbollah on the northern border, 50% opined that, following Hamas's elimination, Israel should also target Hezbollah, while 47% advocated for enforcing a settlement under international pressure.
----
Importantly, the opinion of Settlers has dramatically changed in Israel. They used to be a source of controversy. Now, they are the leading edge of the IDF that is protecting the country and a critical part of keeping Israel's neighbors from ever killing Jews again. So, arm the Settlers and move them in.
What the Finance Minister said is merely what the Israeli public wants. It is only a controversy to Western Progressives, not
Israelis Jews.
November 18
Survey shows substantial support for renewal of Jewish settlement in Gaza after war
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/survey-shows-substantial-support-for-renewal-of-jewish-settlement-in-gaza-after-war/
Channel 12 releases further findings from a survey it carried out on November 15, showing considerable support for the renewal of Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip after the war. Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza to the pre-1967 lines in 2005, removing some 8,000 Jews from their homes in 21 settlements.
------
I understand you don't like any of this; your numerous posts make this clear.
So, what is your answer to getting Israel's neighbors to stop killing Jews?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on December 31, 2023, 08:42:26 AM
So when does bigotry become funny?
Answer: when "serious people" direct it at Catholics. Apparently, you can imply any "half truth" you want about Catholics, and you are just funny, not a bigot.
Anti-Catholic bigotry is an impossibility and no one complains about it, according to Sam Harris.
It took this "never again" moment to turn Israeli Jews into just plain ol' Jews? What about all the other "never again" moments, including Hitler treating Jews like vermin for poisoning Europe's blood, and the various attacks on Israel in the '60s and '70s?
Hamas is killing Jews across the globe?
Anyone have any sources on this new information?
Btw, again, Hamas =\= Palestinians
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 31, 2023, 01:53:45 PM
Hamas is killing Jews across the globe?
Anyone have any sources on this new information?
Btw, again, Hamas =\= Palestinians
I get you desperately want this to be true, but the
Israelis Jews do not believe it.
As Israel fights to destroy Hamas, the group's popularity surges among Palestinians
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/21/1217758546/hamas-support-palestinians-west-bank
Surveys conducted since Oct. 7 appear to reflect the surge of support for Hamas in the West Bank.
"Three months ago ... we had 12% support for Hamas in the West Bank, and today it is 44%, so that's more than tripled," says Khalil Shikaki, director of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Research.
Public support for Hamas in the Gaza Strip also rose modestly during the same period, from 38% to 42%, according to the center's survey conducted from Nov. 22-Dec. 2.
----
Remember, the Nazi party was never more than 35% of the German population, and the Allied forces killed two million Germans civilians, many in brutal fashion (Dresden), to get them to reannounce the Nazis and stop waging war.
The
Israelis Jews are in a fight for survival and will not stop until the ability to kill Jews has been negated. And they are prepared to do whatever it takes.
So, write this 10,000 more times if you want, but the
Israelis Jews are not listening to anyone other than their population. As Golda Mier said after the 1973 attack, "We have nowhere to go."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/30/world/middleeast/defying-us-pressure-israel-deepens-gaza-assault.html
The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is facing increasing pressure from the United States and many other nations to lower the conflict's intensity, but he said last week that Israel would be "deepening" the fighting in coming days.
At a televised news conference on Saturday, Mr. Netanyahu vowed again that Israel would not stop its campaign until it achieved victory, and said that the war would continue for "many more months."
----
The
Israelis Jews believe
Ceasefire = Losing
Hamas =\= Palestinians
Zionism =\= Judaism
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Hey?
Happy Jew Year to all the gentiles who know more about being Jewish than Jews do!
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 01, 2024, 12:47:46 AM
Hamas =\= Palestinians
Zionism =\= Judaism
Your making this equation from the Western Progressive point of view.
In Israel this was true October 6, not so much on October 8.
This also become an equation on October 8
Anti-zionism =antisemtism
And this
October 6
Israeli =\= Jew
October 8
Israeli = Jew
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 01, 2024, 08:30:46 AM
October 8
Israeli = Jew
Didn't you state earlier in this topic that Arabs who live in Israel are better off than those who live in Gaza? Then how can you continue to state that with this ridiculous equation you state above?
And anytime you set up a situation where criticism of Israel = antisemitism, it's a really poor argument. So par for the course with you.
Criticism of America = anti-American.
Ipso fatso, if you ever criticize Biden, you are a commie-loving traitor.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 01, 2024, 09:01:00 AM
Didn't you state earlier in this topic that Arabs who live in Israel are better off than those who live in Gaza? Then how can you continue to state that with this ridiculous equation you state above?
And anytime you set up a situation where criticism of Israel = antisemitism, it's a really poor argument. So par for the course with you.
On October 7th, over 1,000 people in Israel were brutally killed that day, in case you forgot.
The Palestinians that carried this out, at the direction of Hamas, did not discriminate. They killed Jews, Arabs, and foreigners. Any live body they came across, they killed. No one was intentionally spared.
So, on October 8
Israeli = Jew
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 01, 2024, 09:17:54 AM
On October 7th, over 1,000 people in Israel were brutally killed that day, in case you forgot.
The Palestinians that carried this out, at the direction of Hamas, did not discriminate. They killed Jews, Arabs, and foreigners. Any live body they came across, they killed. No one was intentionally spared.
So, on October 8
Israeli = Jew
LOL. Your "logic" should actually lead to the complete opposite conclusion.
I think you copy and paste so much nonsense that you can't keep your arguments straight.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 01, 2024, 09:27:20 AM
LOL. Your "logic" should actually lead to the complete opposite conclusion.
I think you copy and paste so much nonsense that you can't keep your arguments straight.
It's impossible to lose an argument when you get to make up your own meanings of words.
Very detailed layout of the allegations.
This has now grown past Gay. She is toast, just arguing about the type of exit.
The problem is which Fellows (Trustees) on the Harvard Corporation (Board of Trustees) will go with her?
Start with Penny Pritzker, the senior Fellow (head of the BoT), and who else?
The problem is that Priktker cannot take the L, so this will drag on and on.
----
January 1. 2024
Harvard President Claudine Gay Hit With Six New Charges Of Plagiarism
https://freebeacon.com/campus/harvard-president-claudine-gay-hit-with-six-new-charges-of-plagiarism/
Half of Gay's published works now implicated in growing scandal
Harvard University president Claudine Gay was hit with six additional allegations of plagiarism on Monday in a complaint filed with the university, breathing fresh life into a scandal that has embroiled her nascent presidency and pushing the total number of allegations near 50.
Seven of Gay's 17 published works have already been impacted by the scandal, but the new charges, which have not been previously reported, extend into an eighth: In a 2001 article, Gay lifts nearly half a page of material verbatim from another scholar, David Canon, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin.
Much more important story than anything involving the dead-woman-walking Harvard president:
(From NYT)
Israel's Supreme Court struck down a law passed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing government that was meant to limit the court's own powers, by a majority of eight judges to seven.
The decision is likely to rekindle the grave domestic situation that began a year ago over the government's judicial overhaul plan — which sparked mass protests that brought the country to a near standstill at times — even as Israel is at war in Gaza.
Nothing is more important than the Culture War.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 01, 2024, 08:55:56 PM
Nothing is more important than the Culture War.
Sorry, I forgot. I'm still trying to overcome serious injuries suffered during the War on Christmas to think clearly.
Quote from: MU82 on January 01, 2024, 09:03:07 PM
Sorry, I forgot. I'm still trying to overcome serious injuries suffered during the War on Christmas to think clearly.
I get it. I still wake up in night sweats remembering when my neighbor once wished me "Happy Holidays."
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 01, 2024, 08:55:56 PM
Nothing is more important than the Culture War.
If we lose Mr. Potato Head, sexy M&Ms, and Peppy LePew we might as well not call ourselves America anymore.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 01, 2024, 08:39:16 PM
Very detailed layout of the allegations.
This has now grown past Gay. She is toast, just arguing about the type of exit.
The problem is which Fellows (Trustees) on the Harvard Corporation (Board of Trustees) will go with her?
Start with Penny Pritzker, the senior Fellow (head of the BoT), and who else?
The problem is that Priktker cannot take the L, so this will drag on and on.
----
January 1. 2024
Harvard President Claudine Gay Hit With Six New Charges Of Plagiarism
https://freebeacon.com/campus/harvard-president-claudine-gay-hit-with-six-new-charges-of-plagiarism/
Half of Gay's published works now implicated in growing scandal
Harvard University president Claudine Gay was hit with six additional allegations of plagiarism on Monday in a complaint filed with the university, breathing fresh life into a scandal that has embroiled her nascent presidency and pushing the total number of allegations near 50.
Seven of Gay's 17 published works have already been impacted by the scandal, but the new charges, which have not been previously reported, extend into an eighth: In a 2001 article, Gay lifts nearly half a page of material verbatim from another scholar, David Canon, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin.
I found the Harvard situation very interesting because a friend called me about two months ago with a similar story. He is on the national board of a wonderful, internationally respected charity.
He told me they had hired a new CEO as the last one retired After a few months he became concerned because key staff had begun to leave. He alerted the board and after a year, they terminated the person. It was after the termination that they discovered that the person had been fired from the previous position. It was then he added that the candidate was a DEI hire and they had not done a vetting.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 01, 2024, 09:23:20 PM
I found the Harvard situation very interesting because a friend called me about two months ago with a similar story. He is on the national board of a wonderful, internationally respected charity.
He told me they had hired a new CEO as the last one retired After a few months he became concerned because key staff had begun to leave. He alerted the board and after a year, they terminated the person. It was after the termination that they discovered that the person had been fired from the previous position. It was then he added that the candidate was a DEI hire and they had not done a vetting.
So your friend failed at his job.
The board failed ,yes.
However he was the first to recognize the mistake and alert the other members to be observant
Now that Netanyahu's corrupt coup attempt has been spoiled - or at least delayed - I wonder how it will affect the war.
Reports over the weekend surfaced that Israel was reducing its soldier count in Gaza even as it continued pursuing Hamas in more targeted ways.
There isn't much left to bomb. So this is a logical step.
From the NYT:
The deputy head of Hamas, Saleh al-Arouri, and two leaders of its armed wing were killed in an explosion in Lebanon on Tuesday, the group said on its official Telegram channel.
The three died in what Hamas described as a "Zionist raid" in a suburb of Beirut, the Lebanese capital. Lebanese state media reported that the blast occurred amid a meeting between Palestinian factions at a Hamas office.
Good. Kill as many as possible. Part of my 82-point plan.
Anti semestism solved, war is over. President of Harvard resigns.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/1/3/claudine-gay-resign-harvard/
Republicans shoot themselves in the foot yet again.
Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2024, 12:12:20 PM
From the NYT:
The deputy head of Hamas, Saleh al-Arouri, and two leaders of its armed wing were killed in an explosion in Lebanon on Tuesday, the group said on its official Telegram channel.
The three died in what Hamas described as a "Zionist raid" in a suburb of Beirut, the Lebanese capital. Lebanese state media reported that the blast occurred amid a meeting between Palestinian factions at a Hamas office.
Good. Kill as many as possible. Part of my 82-point plan.
Although I think Hamas needs to be eliminated, I'm not a fan of this type of approach. These are assassinations on foreign soil. They are considered crimes by the international community.
It also sets the tone for other groups/countries to do the same thing, and target/assassinate other leaders they disagree with. Overall, the normalization and acceptance of these types of targeted killings/assassinations is a net negative for humanity.
Quote from: reinko on January 02, 2024, 12:14:01 PM
Anti semestism solved, war is over. President of Harvard resigns.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/1/3/claudine-gay-resign-harvard/
World is safe for humanity, and, as you said, antisemitism is cured!
Seriously, she had to go for the plagiarism alone ... and her testimony about the anti-Jewish behavior at Harvard was horrendous and tone-deaf.
Glad it finally happened ... even if she is part of a "protected class."
You might not have realized this, reinko, but she is the first Black person who was ever forced from her or his job. Think about all the Black people who have been employed in U.S. history ... and now a grand total of one has been forced out. I don't know about you, my similarly victimized white brother, but I'm sick and tired of Black people having gotten every break in America for centuries while us white folks have been discriminated against at every turn. Not to mention all the vermin poisoning our blood. White power!!!
Not clever Not amusing. Congratulations on introducing your divide comments into mostly respectful discussion
Quote from: SoCalEagle on January 02, 2024, 12:49:52 PM
Republicans shoot themselves in the foot yet again.
Warning: you need to drop the political posts
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 02, 2024, 01:32:05 PM
Not clever Not amusing. Congratulations on introducing your divide comments into mostly respectful discussion
Mostly respectful?
Heisy and 4ever have spent the majority of this thread calling anyone who disagrees with them an anti-Semite, but this is the post you find problematic?
Quote from: Pakuni on January 02, 2024, 02:02:59 PM
Mostly respectful?
Heisy and 4ever have spent the majority of this thread calling anyone who disagrees with them an anti-Semite, but this is the post you find problematic?
I stopped calling anyone an anti-semite months ago.
To be clear, I have called certain
actions anti-semite, but not certain
people.
Your post follows a long string of personal attacks by you and other fellow travelers regularly against me and others. Just look at a few posts above for the latest example.
Why is this not problematic? In fact, why is your inaccurate characterization of me and 4ever not problematic?
They know what they have in Bibi and will act accordingly and at the appropriate time.
And when Benny Gantz takes over, not one less Palestinian will die. You could argue that Gantz, based on his post-October 7 public statements and the fact he is a member of the War Cabinet, will be more aggressive than Bibi. That is Bibi, who has been holding back the IDF.
---
Only 15% of Israelis want Netanyahu to keep job after Gaza war, poll finds
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/only-15-of-israelis-want-netanyahu-to-keep-job-after-gaza-war-poll-finds
Only 15% of Israelis want Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to stay in office after the war on Hamas in Gaza ends, though many more still support his strategy of crushing the militants in the Palestinian enclave, according to a poll published on Tuesday.
In the poll conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute (IDI), 56% of those questioned said continuing the military offensive was the best way to recover the hostages, while 24% thought a swap deal including the release of thousands more Palestinian prisoners from Israel's jails would be best.
More than 22,000 Palestinians have been killed in the war, according to Gaza health officials, and most of the population displaced. Israel says it has killed some 8,000 Palestinian fighters and has vowed to hunt down Hamas leaders.
But a mere 15% want Netanyahu to be prime minister once the war is over, the poll showed. His political rival and present war cabinet partner, centrist Benny Gantz, garnered support from 23% of interviewees. Around 30% named no preferred leader.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 02:40:38 PM
Your post follows a long string of personal attacks by you and other fellow travelers regularly against me and others. Just look at a few posts above for the latest example.
Accurately describing your behavior is not a "personal attack."
Quote
Why is this not problematic? In fact, why is your inaccurate characterization of me and 4ever not problematic?
Because it's not inaccurate.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 02, 2024, 02:02:59 PM
Mostly respectful?
Heisy and 4ever have spent the majority of this thread calling anyone who disagrees with them an anti-Semite, but this is the post you find problematic?
Duh
Quote from: Pakuni on January 02, 2024, 02:46:36 PM
Accurately describing your behavior is not a "personal attack."
Because it's not inaccurate.
So, these are not personal attacks.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 07:32:14 PM
Of course he does. And he has an army of online simpletons (such as yourself) that agree with him.
Regardless Harvard will be fine.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 07:05:10 PM
LOL...no.
Bill Ackman's account doesn't run Harvard. You are way too online and too feeble minded to realize it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 23, 2023, 08:18:58 AM
Oy. You are so dim. You realize you're making a circular argument right?
You made a statement of wild exaggeration. But when that exaggeration is pointed out, you shift the goalposts in a way that actually proves my point.
Never change Heisey. Your arguments are so easy to dismantle. A nice pastime on a lazy Saturday morning.
Quote from: forgetful on January 02, 2024, 12:55:42 PM
Although I think Hamas needs to be eliminated, I'm not a fan of this type of approach. These are assassinations on foreign soil. They are considered crimes by the international community.
It also sets the tone for other groups/countries to do the same thing, and target/assassinate other leaders they disagree with. Overall, the normalization and acceptance of these types of targeted killings/assassinations is a net negative for humanity.
Yeah as much concern as there has been about the retaliation of ME countries against Israel and its recent actions, actions like these are how this creeps closer to a reality. Drone striking Beirut is pouring gas on the fire.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 02:58:25 PM
So, these are not personal attacks.
Facts don't care about your feelings
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 02:58:25 PM
So, these are not personal attacks.
I'm not responsible for others' posts.
Quote from: forgetful on January 02, 2024, 12:55:42 PM
Although I think Hamas needs to be eliminated, I'm not a fan of this type of approach. These are assassinations on foreign soil. They are considered crimes by the international community.
It also sets the tone for other groups/countries to do the same thing, and target/assassinate other leaders they disagree with. Overall, the normalization and acceptance of these types of targeted killings/assassinations is a net negative for humanity.
I disagree. This was not a leader that they disagreed with. It was a leader who planned a murderous assault and helped start a war.
I would much rather see this happen (along with dozens more) than to see an all out attack against an impoverished civilian population.
Kill the people who deserve to die rather than women and children.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 02:58:25 PM
So, these are not personal attacks.
Those are completely accurate descriptions of you and your arguments in this topic. Any topic really.
As I said, you are the George Costanza of Scoop. Anytime you make a prediction, the smart money is on the exact opposite occurring.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 02, 2024, 03:39:24 PM
Those are completely accurate descriptions of you and your arguments in this topic. Any topic really.
As I said, you are the George Costanza of Scoop. Anytime you make a prediction, the smart money is on the exact opposite occurring.
You're missing the best argument of all, Sultan.
He is utterly boring.
Quote from: forgetful on January 02, 2024, 12:55:42 PM
Although I think Hamas needs to be eliminated, I'm not a fan of this type of approach. These are assassinations on foreign soil. They are considered crimes by the international community.
It also sets the tone for other groups/countries to do the same thing, and target/assassinate other leaders they disagree with. Overall, the normalization and acceptance of these types of targeted killings/assassinations is a net negative for humanity.
We will respectfully agree to disagree on this, forgetful.
https://x.com/statedeptspox/status/1742282740085424163?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Personal attack
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 02, 2024, 03:02:49 PM
Facts don't care about your feelings
Personal attack
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 02, 2024, 03:39:24 PM
Those are completely accurate descriptions of you and your arguments in this topic. Any topic really.
As I said, you are the George Costanza of Scoop. Anytime you make a prediction, the smart money is on the exact opposite occurring.
I'm sorry that you view "being Heisey" is a personal attack. Maybe you should be more reflective on why people feel that way about you.
Quote from: Jockey on January 02, 2024, 03:17:42 PM
I disagree. This was not a leader that they disagreed with. It was a leader who planned a murderous assault and helped start a war.
I would much rather see this happen (along with dozens more) than to see an all out attack against an impoverished civilian population.
Kill the people who deserve to die rather than women and children.
What do you do when the leaders and their soldiers hide behind innocent civilians?
---
In December 2016, when Obama was the President, ISIS was hiding in a hospital in Mosul. We attacked it and killed many innocents.
We justified it by saying we did our best to prevent innocent civilians, calling it a "precision strike."
---
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/islamic-state-iraq-mosul-hospital-airstrike-us-military
The US military has deliberately conducted an airstrike on a hospital in the Iraqi city of Mosul, it said on Wednesday, after saying its Iraqi allies came under fire by Islamic State fighters from the hospital complex.
US Central Command (Centcom) said it launched a "precision strike" on a building within the al-Salem hospital complex from which ISIS fighters had for more than a day launched "heavy" machine gun and rocket-propelled grenade fire on Iraqi forces.
---
Israel claims they are doing the same. Why do we believe they are not? Who are the military experts with the explanation of how to use even more "precision" to kill Hamas but not civilians?
Hamas said 20,000 have been killed. Hamas does not differentiate between civilians and combatants. If we are going to accept their measure, then we should also accept the IDF measure that 8,000 of them were Hamas fighters (many of which were under 19, which falls into the "children" category as Hamas claims anyone under 19 is a "child.")
That means 1.5 civilians are being killed for every combatant killed. This is far and away the lowest civilian-to-combatant ratio ever recorded in a densely urban area in the history of warfare.
So why do we not praise the IDF for the "precision" instead of criticizing them?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 02, 2024, 04:13:12 PM
I'm sorry that you view "being Heisey" is a personal attack. Maybe you should be more reflective on why people feel that way about you.
It is really about 3 to 6 people. And I get at least that many DMs that encourage me, and they have "choice words" about you specifically. Hards is not far behind you.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 04:29:53 PM
It is really about 3 to 6 people. And I get at least that many DMs that encourage me, and they have "choice words" about you specifically.
LOL. I'm sure you do.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 04:29:53 PM
It is really about 3 to 6 people. And I get at least that many DMs that encourage me, and they have "choice words" about you specifically. Hards is not far behind you.
I get a lot of DMs from people that have choice words about you that are afraid to post here. I got 3 today. One was from a member of The Beatles
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 04:26:23 PM
What do you do when the leaders and their soldiers hide behind innocent civilians?
---
In December 2016, when Obama was the President, ISIS was hiding in a hospital in Mosul. We attacked it and killed many innocents.
Source?
Quote
That means 1.5 civilians are being killed for every combatant killed. This is far and away the lowest civilian-to-combatant ratio ever recorded in a densely urban area in the history of warfare.
Source?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 02, 2024, 04:34:15 PM
I get a lot of DMs from people that have choice words about you that are afraid to post here. I got 3 today. One was from a member of The Beatles
George?
Quote from: Jockey on January 02, 2024, 04:58:57 PM
George?
They want their identity kept private but are very concerned about what Sultan is posting
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 02, 2024, 05:05:43 PM
They want their identity kept private but are very concerned about what Sultan is posting
As
Pete Best they should be.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 02, 2024, 05:05:43 PM
They want their identity kept private but are very concerned about what Sultan is posting
Did he have a tear in his eye as he told you this?
Quote from: Jockey on January 02, 2024, 05:17:13 PM
Did he have a tear in his eye as he told you this?
Yes, and he was a big, strong man
Who is the bigger war criminal?
Bibi or Obama?
Or is the difference that one is a Jew and the other hates Jews?
----
U.S. Bombed Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia in 2016
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-bombed-iraq-syria-pakistan-afghanistan-libya-yemen-somalia-n704636
The U.S. dropped 26,171 bombs on seven countries in 2016, according to an analysis by the Council of Foreign Relations.
The U.S. dropped an average of 72 bombs every day — the equivalent of three an hour — in 2016, according to an analysis of American strikes around the world.
The report from the Council of Foreign Relations comes as Barack Obama finishes up his presidency — one that began with promises to withdraw from international conflicts.
According to the New York City-based think tank, 26,171 bombs were dropped on Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan during the year.
CFR warned that its estimates were "undoubtedly low, considering reliable data is only available for airstrikes in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya, and a single 'strike,' according to the Pentagon's definition, can involve multiple bombs or munitions."
----
How about this in 2015
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/12/09/us-airstrike-hits-mosul-hospital-used-isis.html
The airstrike on the hospital was believed to be the first known incident of the U.S. deliberately targeting a medical facility in Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan.
In October 2015, a U.S. AC-130 gunship fired repeatedly on a Médecins Sans Frontières hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, which had been overrun by the Taliban. At least 42 civilians were killed.
A formal investigation by the U.S. military concluded that the Kunduz airstrike was a mistake caused by poor intelligence and poor coordination by the air and ground troops, and was not deliberate.
Pentagon: U.S. bombing of Afghanistan hospital not a 'war crime'
https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/29/politics/u-s-airstrike-hospital-afghanistan-investigation/index.html
The Pentagon announced Friday that 16 military personnel will be disciplined for the deadly U.S. strike on a hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, in October, but maintained that it was not a war crime because it resulted from unintentional human error and equipment failure.
The military said some personnel involved "failed to comply with the rules of engagement and the law of armed conflict," and that a general officer was among those facing discipline for their roles in the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 02, 2024, 04:51:32 PM
Source?
Source?
Good question.
According to the Iraqis, at least 100
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2016/12/08/lethal-mistake-leads-harrowing-ambush-iraq-mosul/4UeHrvZdRSct0ITQIJ4PVK/story.html
According to the US military ... they do not bother to make an official assessment. They did not find it important enough.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 05:45:18 PM
Good question.
According to the Iraqis, at least 100
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2016/12/08/lethal-mistake-leads-harrowing-ambush-iraq-mosul/4UeHrvZdRSct0ITQIJ4PVK/story.html
According to the US military ... they do not bother to make an official assessment. They did not find it important enough.
Yet another example of you failing to read your own sources.
Nowhere in this article does it state anything about civilian casualties. And certainly nothing to back up your claim that the attack "killed many innocents."
The 100 casualties cited in the story refers to Iraqi soldiers. They were killed by ISIS fighters prior to the missile attack.
It reads:
"The Islamic State fighters eventually fought their way inside al-Salam hospital. Of the 100 or so Iraqi soldiers trapped there, nearly all were killed or wounded, he said."Is correcting you a personal attack?
Quote from: Pakuni on January 02, 2024, 05:55:02 PM
Is correcting you a personal attack?
Just asking that question is a personal attack. Citing actual factual facts is attempted murder.
Now leave Douchey alone. He's answering the dozen DMs he got from his girlfriend. Nobody's met her because she lives in Canada.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 02, 2024, 05:55:02 PM
Yet another example of you failing to read your own sources.
Nowhere in this article does it state anything about civilian casualties. And certainly nothing to back up your claim that the attack "killed many innocents."
The 100 casualties cited in the story refers to Iraqi soldiers. They were killed by ISIS fighters prior to the missile attack.
It reads:
"The Islamic State fighters eventually fought their way inside al-Salam hospital. Of the 100 or so Iraqi soldiers trapped there, nearly all were killed or wounded, he said."
Is correcting you a personal attack?
Not a personal attack ...
An official assessment was not done, so we do not know.
But if you want to believe that ISIS killed 100 Iraqi soldiers inside the hospital while the US bombed it, and none of the doctors, staff, and patients were killed simply because there was not an official assessment ... you go for it.
Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2024, 06:03:48 PM
Just asking that question is a personal attack. Citing actual factual facts is attempted murder.
Now leave Douchey alone. He's answering the dozen DMs he got from his girlfriend. Nobody's met her because she lives in Canada.
No she lives in Hawaii and dated Manti Te'o
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 04:10:32 PM
Personal attack
Personal attack
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/016/674/802.jpg)
Quote from: Pakuni on January 02, 2024, 05:55:02 PM
Yet another example of you failing to read your own sources.
Nowhere in this article does it state anything about civilian casualties. And certainly nothing to back up your claim that the attack "killed many innocents."
The 100 casualties cited in the story refers to Iraqi soldiers. They were killed by ISIS fighters prior to the missile attack.
It reads:
"The Islamic State fighters eventually fought their way inside al-Salam hospital. Of the 100 or so Iraqi soldiers trapped there, nearly all were killed or wounded, he said."
Is correcting you a personal attack?
it's not particularly hard to find examples of Obama signing off on egregious collateral damage causing drone strikes. And yet somehow we managed to land on one of the most ambiguous potential examples. On brand
Quote from: SoCalEagle on January 02, 2024, 12:49:52 PM
Republicans shoot themselves in the foot yet again.
It has been argued that the Harvard Corporation is the most powerful organization in the world, and it only answers to god.
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/as-pressure-on-harvard-president-increases-university-board-feels-the-squeeze-dd6f3901
There are few checks on their authority. One faculty member said the corporation answers only to God.And we know that even a team of bloodhounds cannot find evidence that a Republican has ever set foot within the Cambridge city limits, let alone has any sway over the Harvard Corporation and its Senior Fellow Penny Pritzker.
So, if we accept that this was indeed a Republican ploy to get rid of Claudine Gay, and it worked. Then, the Republican Party is the single most powerful institution built in human history, and today, it is at the apex of that power.
We must be honored to witness such a truly important body wield its considerable influence in real-time.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 02, 2024, 06:37:29 PM
it's not particularly hard to find examples of Obama signing off on egregious collateral damage causing drone strikes. And yet somehow we managed to land on one of the most ambiguous potential examples. On brand
I agree with this.
I'll take the L.
And I'm glad you agree to the larger point ... that Obama was a bigger war criminal than Bibi, and there is a double standard in judging Israel.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 06:39:25 PM
I agree with this.
I'll take the L.
And I'm glad you agree to the larger point ... that Obama was a bigger war criminal than Bibi, and there is a double standard in judging Israel.
When did I ever say that, good god man.
In my opinion they're both war criminals. (Most modern US presidents have signed off on war crimes)
However, one is killing civilians at an astronomically faster rate than the other did currently.
And one also currently teeters on the brink of extensive corruption charges and is grasping at power vs one who does not have these problems in two famously corrupt countries where it is hard to prosecute politicians.
I dont think it's particularly insightful to take my statement of "hey US presidents are famously loose with civilian deaths" and to run it back as me saying "he thinks we are being unfair to Israel". Especially with my history of posts in this thread. But you read what you want to read I suppose.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 02, 2024, 06:50:00 PM
When did I ever say that, good god man.
In my opinion they're both war criminals. (Most modern US presidents have signed off on war crimes)
However, one is killing civilians at an astronomically faster rate than the other did currently.
And one also currently teeters on the brink of extensive corruption charges and is grasping at power vs one who does not have these problems in two famously corrupt countries where it is hard to prosecute politicians.
I dont think it's particularly insightful to take my statement of "hey US presidents are famously loose with civilian deaths" and to run it back as me saying "he thinks we are being unfair to Israel". Especially with my history of posts in this thread. But you read what you want to read I suppose.
Shocking.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 06:39:25 PM
I agree with this.
I'll take the L.
And I'm glad you agree to the larger point ... that Obama was a bigger war criminal than Bibi, and there is a double standard in judging Israel.
So Bibi is a war criminal? Got it 🤝
Quote from: reinko on January 02, 2024, 06:59:06 PM
So Bibi is a war criminal? Got it 🤝
And corrupt and should be in jail for his crimes while in office in Israel.
Adios Claudine Gay and kma. You're an antisemitic idiot who plagiarizes. Couldn't survive your stupidity despite being a member of a protected class, hey?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 06:37:31 PM
It has been argued that the Harvard Corporation is the most powerful organization in the world, and it only answers to god.
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/as-pressure-on-harvard-president-increases-university-board-feels-the-squeeze-dd6f3901
There are few checks on their authority. One faculty member said the corporation answers only to God.
And we know that even a team of bloodhounds cannot find evidence that a Republican has ever set foot within the Cambridge city limits, let alone has any sway over the Harvard Corporation and its Senior Fellow Penny Pritzker.
So, if we accept that this was indeed a Republican ploy to get rid of Claudine Gay, and it worked. Then, the Republican Party is the single most powerful institution built in human history, and today, it is at the apex of that power.
We must be honored to witness such a truly important body wield its considerable influence in real-time.
That might be the most moronic thing ever written.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2024, 07:10:41 PM
Adios Claudine Gay and kma. You're an antisemitic idiot who plagiarizes. Couldn't survive your stupidity despite being a member of a protected class, hey?
I didn't know she was a billionaire
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2024, 07:29:55 PM
That might be the most moronic thing ever written.
How can you differentiate this from all the other nonsense he has authored here.
Anyway, the dude is way too online. Definitely needs more hobbies - like woodworking.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 06:13:26 PM
Not a personal attack ...
An official assessment was not done, so we do not know.
So, you came here to say this event "killed many innocents" but now admit you have no idea whether that's true?
Huh.
QuoteBut if you want to believe that ISIS killed 100 Iraqi soldiers inside the hospital while the US bombed it, and none of the doctors, staff, and patients were killed simply because there was not an official assessment ... you go for it.
You're now attacking the credibility of the exact same source that just a few hours ago you offered as factual proof of your claims.
Classic Heisey.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 02, 2024, 07:36:12 PM
How can you differentiate this from all the other nonsense he has authored here.
Anyway, the dude is way too online. Definitely needs more hobbies - like woodworking.
I can't comment on all of it
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2024, 07:10:41 PM
Adios Claudine Gay and kma. You're an antisemitic idiot who plagiarizes. Couldn't survive your stupidity despite being a member of a protected class, hey?
Racist comment to attack somebody who didn't stand up to antisemitism. Nice.
If only you stood up to several of your political heroes - people with real power - who accept and solicit support from antisemites (and, in many cases, are antisemites themselves).
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 02, 2024, 07:36:12 PM
How can you differentiate this from all the other nonsense he has authored here.
Anyway, the dude is way too online. Definitely needs more hobbies - like woodworking.
(https://production.listennotes.com/podcasts/hey-get-off-my-lawn-off-the-lawn-edUbunZIB3h.1400x1400.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GC4strKW0AAQr5j?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2024, 10:38:53 PM
Racist comment to attack somebody who didn't stand up to antisemitism. Nice.
If only you stood up to several of your political heroes - people with real power - who accept and solicit support from antisemites (and, in many cases, are antisemites themselves).
Nope, just the truth. Toss Harvard in the dumpster too for being complicit, aina?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2024, 07:29:55 PM
That might be the most moronic thing ever written.
Then you'll really like this
Very long but worth a read because the guy that is running this via his X account seems to get what he wants and if he is successful at Harvard, it will lead the way everywhere.
Knowing Bill like I do, he is not a voice in the wilderness yelling at clouds, but the spokesman for a very powerful group of backers. They are like mostly like Bill, rich left of center democrats that think Harvard and most of academia is fundamentally broken and intend on fixing it.
Bill is correct
—
January 3, 2024
Bill Ackman
https://x.com/billackman/status/1742441534627184760?s=46&t=uSnZlSLOtzvp-jqg6eHG4Q
Again very long, but here is two excerpts of what he thinks is the problem and the solution
—-
I came to learn that the root cause of antisemitism at Harvard was an ideology that had been promulgated on campus, an oppressor/oppressed framework, that provided the intellectual bulwark behind the protests, helping to generate anti-Israel and anti-Jewish hate speech and harassment.
Then I did more research. The more I learned, the more concerned I became, and the more ignorant I realized I had been about DEI, a powerful movement that has not only pervaded Harvard, but the educational system at large. I came to understand that Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion was not what I had naively thought these words meant.
Under DEI, one's degree of oppression is determined based upon where one resides on a so-called intersectional pyramid of oppression where whites, Jews, and Asians are deemed oppressors, and a subset of people of color, LGBTQ people, and/or women are deemed to be oppressed. Under this ideology which is the philosophical underpinning of DEI as advanced by Ibram X. Kendi and others, one is either an anti-racist or a racist. There is no such thing as being "not racist."
——
The Corporation Board should not remain in their seats protected by the unusual governance structure which enabled them to obtain their seats.
The Board Chair, Penny Pritzker, should resign along with the other members of the board who led the campaign to keep Claudine Gay, orchestrated the strategy to threaten the media, bypassed the process for evaluating plagiarism, and otherwise greatly contributed to the damage that has been done. Then new Corporation board members should be identified who bring true diversity, viewpoint and otherwise, to the board.
The ODEIB should be shut down, and the staff should be terminated. The ODEIB has already taken down much of the ideology and strategies that were on its website when I and others raised concerns about how the office operates and who it does and does not represent. Taking down portions of the website does not address the fundamentally flawed and racist ideology of this office, and calls into further question the ODEIB's legitimacy.
Why would the ODEIB take down portions of its website when an alum questioned its legitimacy unless the office was doing something fundamentally wrong or indefensible?
Harvard must once again become a meritocratic institution which does not discriminate for or against faculty or students based on their skin color, and where diversity is understood in its broadest form so that students can learn in an environment which welcomes diverse viewpoints from faculty and students from truly diverse backgrounds and experiences.
"Knowing Bill like I do" = "I read his X account"
Way too online. Maybe try gardening?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 03, 2024, 05:54:32 AM
"Knowing Bill like I do" = "I read his X account"
Way too online. Maybe try gardening?
How about as an Only Fans actor?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 03, 2024, 03:56:28 AM
Nope, just the truth. Toss Harvard in the dumpster too for being complicit, aina?
White, heterosexual, Christian male has been by far the most protected class in America since the country was founded. It since also has become the most self-declared victim class.
Woe is you. You can't catch a break.
What's the difference between ethnic cleansing and "voluntary resettlement" after you've been bombed out of your home?
The "voluntary" resettlement of Palestinians from Gaza is slowly becoming a key official policy of the government, with a senior official saying that Israel has held talks with several countries for their potential absorption.
Zman Israel, The Times of Israel's Hebrew sister site, has learned that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition is conducting secret contacts for accepting thousands of immigrants from Gaza with Congo, in addition to other nations.
"Congo will be willing to take in migrants, and we're in talks with others," a senior source in the security cabinet said.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/
I mean, that's just not going to work.
Quote from: MU82 on January 03, 2024, 08:58:14 AM
White, heterosexual, Christian male has been by far the most protected class in America since the country was founded. It since also has become the most self-declared victim class.
Woe is you. You can't catch a break.
Depends on context, aina?
Quote from: Pakuni on January 03, 2024, 09:15:38 AM
What's the difference between ethnic cleansing and "voluntary resettlement" after you've been bombed out of your home?
The "voluntary" resettlement of Palestinians from Gaza is slowly becoming a key official policy of the government, with a senior official saying that Israel has held talks with several countries for their potential absorption.
Zman Israel, The Times of Israel's Hebrew sister site, has learned that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition is conducting secret contacts for accepting thousands of immigrants from Gaza with Congo, in addition to other nations.
"Congo will be willing to take in migrants, and we're in talks with others," a senior source in the security cabinet said.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/
Holy crap this reads like a manual for how to nurture early-stage start up terrorist cells.
Curious that neighboring Arab states have said they will take no Palestinians.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 10:54:55 AM
Curious that neighboring Arab states have said they will take no Palestinians.
Not really.
They believe Palestinians shouldn't be forced out of their homeland and have no interest accommodating Israel.
It's about the least curious thing ever.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 03, 2024, 11:15:33 AM
Not really.
They believe Palestinians shouldn't be forced out of their homeland and have no interest accommodating Israel.
It's about the least curious thing ever.
Exactly. It's really not that hard to understand.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 10:54:55 AM
Curious that neighboring Arab states have said they will take no Palestinians.
No more curious than America not taking any fellow Christians
Quote from: Pakuni on January 03, 2024, 11:15:33 AM
Not really.
They believe Palestinians shouldn't be forced out of their homeland and have no interest accommodating Israel.
It's about the least curious thing ever.
IMHO, that's not the whole truth. If so, that would mean their hatred for Israel>their empathy for innocent Palestinians who are dying. I think its a combination of that, and not wanting to actually house the refugees. Do you really believe that if the Palestinian refugees went to Egypt until an agreement was reached (Say 6 months), they wouldn't be allowed back to Gaza?
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 03, 2024, 12:13:45 PM
IMHO, that's not the whole truth. If so, that would mean their hatred for Israel>their empathy for innocent Palestinians who are dying. I think its a combination of that, and not wanting to actually house the refugees. Do you really believe that if the Palestinian refugees went to Egypt until an agreement was reached (Say 6 months), they wouldn't be allowed back to Gaza?
According to the article linked above, they would not be.
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 03, 2024, 12:13:45 PM
IMHO, that's not the whole truth. If so, that would mean their hatred for Israel>their empathy for innocent Palestinians who are dying. I think its a combination of that, and not wanting to actually house the refugees. Do you really believe that if the Palestinian refugees went to Egypt until an agreement was reached (Say 6 months), they wouldn't be allowed back to Gaza?
I think you''re offering a false choice based on a false premise.
The false choice is the suggestion that the only options for Arab countries are 1) Accept (and house, feed, provide for) a couple million refugees for an indeterminate time frame or 2) they don't care about dying Palestinians.
Obviously there are other options, like working to broker a peace that doesn't require millions of Palestinians to abandon their historical homeland and live in Congo (or Egypt or Sudan or Turkey or anywhere else).
The false premise is that they would be allowed to go back to the rubble of Gaza.
If you believe the Israeli government wants them back in Gaza and doesn't see "voluntary resettlement" as permanent, you're not paying attention to what the Israelis are saying.
And no, I don't think surrounding nations are eager to absorb a couple million poor, homeless and in some cases radicalized, Palestinians. Why would they be?
Quote from: Pakuni on January 03, 2024, 12:32:21 PM
I think you''re offering a false choice based on a false premise.
The false choice is the suggestion that the only options for Arab countries are 1) Accept (and house, feed, provide for) a couple million refugees for an indeterminate time frame or 2) they don't care about dying Palestinians.
Obviously there are other options, like working to broker a peace that doesn't require millions of Palestinians to abandon their historical homeland and live in Congo (or Egypt or Sudan or Turkey or anywhere else).
The false premise is that they would be allowed to go back to the rubble of Gaza.
If you believe the Israeli government wants them back in Gaza and doesn't see "voluntary resettlement" as permanent, you're not paying attention to what the Israelis are saying.
And no, I don't think surrounding nations are eager to absorb a couple million poor, homeless and in some cases radicalized, Palestinians. Why would they be?
Well, you implied that the only reason why other countries aren't accepting them is because these countries do not want to appease Israel.
I think most would argue that not allowing the Palestinians back would be an act of aggression by Israel. Curious how the rest of the world would react to this.
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 03, 2024, 12:49:55 PM
Well, you implied that the only reason why other countries aren't accepting them is because these countries do not want to appease Israel.
But that's not what I wrote. In fact, the first reason I offered was "They believe Palestinians shouldn't be forced out of their homeland."
Quote
I think most would argue that not allowing the Palestinians back would be an act of aggression by Israel. Curious how the rest of the world would react to this.
Well, Israel doesn't exactly have a history of caring how the world reacts to its actions, does it?
But all I can say is read what the Israeli government officials are saying and then come back and tell us how this is being proposed as a temporary solution.
From the article I linked:
On Tuesday, Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel told Zman that "voluntary migration is the best and most realistic program for the day after the fighting ends."Note the bolded. She's not suggesting this as something to be done until an agreement is reached to end the fighting. She's suggesting this happens AFTER the fighting. Why would they move the Palestinians out after the fighting if the intent is to allow them back?
Continuing ...
Gamliel said: "At the end of the war, Hamas rule will collapse. There are no municipal authorities; the civilian population will be entirely dependent on humanitarian aid. There will be no work, and 60% of Gaza's agricultural land will become security buffer zones."Again, their stance is that there will be nothing there for the Gazans to return to ... no government, no jobs and no food, because we're seizing 60% of their farm land. Again, how do you read these comments and see "voluntary resettlement" as a temporary proposal?
Israeli ministers are now stating out loud that this is an ethnic cleansing.
This is exactly the over-reaction that Iran was hoping for.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 04:29:53 PM
It is really about 3 to 6 people. And I get at least that many DMs that encourage me, and they have "choice words" about you specifically. Hards is not far behind you.
Lol. If that's the case, people around here need to get a life. But we both know that no one is doing that.
Pure fantasy.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 02, 2024, 06:39:25 PM
I agree with this.
I'll take the L.
And I'm glad you agree to the larger point ... that Obama was a bigger war criminal than Bibi, and there is a double standard in judging Israel.
Literally every President in the US for the last 100+ years is a war criminal. Bibi too.
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 03, 2024, 09:02:15 AM
literally? or Figuratively?
I hear the knockout game has returned in Mequon
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 03, 2024, 01:04:16 PM
Israeli ministers are now stating out loud that this is an ethnic cleansing.
What?! I was told this wasn't the case when I posted about it!
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 10:54:55 AM
Curious that neighboring Arab states have said they will take no Palestinians.
Not really.
This has been explained here like 20 times.
Nonsense. Because it has been discussed has no bearing on my comment that their neighbors want no part of them
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 03, 2024, 12:13:45 PM
IMHO, that's not the whole truth. If so, that would mean their hatred for Israel>their empathy for innocent Palestinians who are dying. I think its a combination of that, and not wanting to actually house the refugees. Do you really believe that if the Palestinian refugees went to Egypt until an agreement was reached (Say 6 months), they wouldn't be allowed back to Gaza?
Others have already mentioned it, but your error is that you believe that Israel has any intention of any relocation being temporary.
A hold up to previous 2-state negotiations was over the idea of the "right to return," for Palestinians displaced during other conflicts. Israel refuses to allow any of them to return. They sure as hell would not allow Gazans to return one they are removed.
It was leaked early on, that their goal in this conflict is to seize all of Gaza and remove Palestinians from that land permanently.
Quote from: forgetful on January 03, 2024, 03:12:07 PM
Others have already mentioned it, but your error is that you believe that Israel has any intention of any relocation being temporary.
A hold up to previous 2-state negotiations was over the idea of the "right to return," for Palestinians displaced during other conflicts. Israel refuses to allow any of them to return. They sure as hell would not allow Gazans to return one they are removed.
It was leaked early on, that their goal in this conflict is to seize all of Gaza and remove Palestinians from that land permanently.
If they do not relocate them, it's a genocide.
If they relocate them, it is ethnic cleansing (and I might add it is an ethnic cleansing because the Palestinians ethnically cleansed Gaza of Jews and everyone else to begin with. Gaza is not multi-cultural).
Israel cannot win.
So, what is the solution?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 03, 2024, 03:28:54 PM
If they do not relocate them, it's a genocide.
If they relocate them, it is ethnic cleansing (and I might add it is an ethnic cleansing because the Palestinians ethnically cleansed Gaza of Jews and everyone else to begin with. Gaza is not multi-cultural).
Israel cannot win.
So, what is the solution?
You are ignoring the fact that they are planning this "voluntary relocation" for when after the war has been completed.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 02:57:19 PM
Nonsense. Because it has been discussed has no bearing on my comment that their neighbors want no part of them
Nonsense. You didn't read
why they won't accept Gazan refugees. You said it was curious why they didn't, yet you don't want to know why.
Truly that is what is curious.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 03, 2024, 03:28:54 PM
If they do not relocate them, it's a genocide.
Yes, killing them all or total displacement are the only two options.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 03, 2024, 03:38:59 PM
Yes, killing them all or total displacement are the only two options.
So, answer my last line.
"So, what is the solution?"
Quote from: forgetful on January 03, 2024, 03:12:07 PM
Others have already mentioned it, but your error is that you believe that Israel has any intention of any relocation being temporary.
A hold up to previous 2-state negotiations was over the idea of the "right to return," for Palestinians displaced during other conflicts. Israel refuses to allow any of them to return. They sure as hell would not allow Gazans to return one they are removed.
It was leaked early on, that their goal in this conflict is to seize all of Gaza and remove Palestinians from that land permanently.
Were that true they would not have agreed to a two state solution to be turned down twice. Also if that were true
The Palestinians in Israel ( who serve in government and all aspects of life) would not have increased to over 250,000. That is hardly the definition of genocide.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 08:54:58 PM
Were that true they would not have agreed to a two state solution to be turned down twice. Also if that were true
The Palestinians in Israel ( who serve in government and all aspects of life) would not have increased to over 250,000. That is hardly the definition of genocide.
Except they never agreed to a 2-state solution only to be turned down twice.
They were very close once, then far-right Israeli extremists assassinated Rabin, because he was seeking a 2-state solution.
The other time, they were also close, and they voted out the guy that was negotiating a 2-state solution. Since then, they have elected officials who vehemently oppose any Palestinian state between the Jordan River and the Sea.
In neither instance was there an agreement on the table that either party fully agreed with.
Arafat for one had the agreement and he did reject it
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 09:53:50 PM
Arafat for one had the agreement and he did reject it
Ahem ..
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday night that he was "proud" he prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state and took credit for "putting the brakes" on the Oslo peace process, during a press conference at the Defense Ministry headquarters in Tel Aviv.https://www.timesofisrael.com/pointing-to-hamass-little-state-netanyahu-touts-role-blocking-2-state-solution/
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 03, 2024, 07:59:10 PM
So, answer my last line.
"So, what is the solution?"
The only solution is for moderates on both sides to compromise on a teo-state solution. Chances of that happening anytime soon aren't great, but it's the only hope.
Until then, lather, rinse, repeat.
Hope for moderates to win out but it is hard to compromise with people whose sole purpose is to destroy Israel. I read where Israel's desire is for the clans to run the neighborhoods after Hamas is gone
That might be a better solution
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 10:33:55 PM
Hope for moderates to win out but it is hard to compromise with people whose sole purpose is to destroy Israel. I read where Israel's desire is for the clans to run the neighborhoods after Hamas is gone
That might be a better solution
That's a horrible idea. It's called the Taliban...worked great for Afghanistan.
Sorry I don't get the correlation between the two
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 10:33:55 PM
Hope for moderates to win out but it is hard to compromise with people whose sole purpose is to destroy Israel.
Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 03, 2024, 10:50:20 PM
Sorry I don't get the correlation between the two
The Taliban was largely a clan-based political architecture of the Pashtun people in Afghanistan.
The only reason Israel would want a clan-based architecture is because they know it would destabilize Gaza, and make it more likely that their ideal scenario would be accepted.
It's nice to see the antisemite Musk whine about the evils of "reverse racism."
In other news about the "free-speech absolutist" ... SpaceX illegally fired employees critical of Elon Musk, a regulator finds. Eight workers who had circulated a letter calling on the company to distance itself from Musk's social media posts, were wrongly dismissed, according to the National Labor Relations Board. The case will head to an administrative judicial hearing in March.
Pretty damning article regarding Israeli actions and tolerance for politicians calling for genocide.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/03/israeli-public-figures-accuse-judiciary-of-ignoring-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/03/israeli-public-figures-accuse-judiciary-of-ignoring-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza)
The fact that prominent Israelis are essentially supporting the South African criminal case against Israel is pretty crazy.
Language like that coming out of Israeli Politicians, calling for the murder/death of all Gazans/Palestinians, has only really been heard of once in modern history.
Iran set the trap, and Israel is just walking right into it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 04, 2024, 01:46:15 PM
Iran set the trap, and Israel is just walking right into it.
Don't be antisemitic. Suggesting restraint because it'll only hurt Israel long term is antisemitic.
Quote from: forgetful on January 03, 2024, 11:36:58 PM
The Taliban was largely a clan-based political architecture of the Pashtun people in Afghanistan.
The only reason Israel would want a clan-based architecture is because they know it would destabilize Gaza, and make it more likely that their ideal scenario would be accepted.
Completely disagree with your take on the clan structure. It is a suggestion to get away from Hamas and Hezbollah type governance. The Taliban are fundamentally Pashtun fundamentalst Islamic movement. The clan thing is pretty murky. Read " 12 men strong". Today you may fight with your cousin but tomorrow you may switch sides and fight with him.
Again the genocide charge works if your entire government is calling for the destruction of a people. The idea that Israel is embarking on that course is debunked by the fact that the Arabs,Palestinians and Bedouin have prospered and increased in the decades Israel has been in existence
Quote from: MU82 on January 04, 2024, 07:22:12 AM
It's nice to see the antisemite Musk whine about the evils of "reverse racism."
Thought he was busy whining about Green Day.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 03, 2024, 10:05:20 PM
The only solution is for moderates on both sides to compromise on a teo-state solution. Chances of that happening anytime soon aren't great, but it's the only hope.
Until then, lather, rinse, repeat.
They got their second state, Gaza, when Israel completely pulled out in 2005.
And did that offer Israel any security against terrorism? Answer: no.
So a two-state solution is "this is yours, this is ours, you leave us alone, we leave you alone." When offered this opportunity, the Palestinians did not do this.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 03, 2024, 10:53:24 PM
Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
This story is dated October 25 and uses a survey with these parameters.
Our most recent interviews were carried out between September 28 and October 8, surveying 790 respondents in the West Bank and 399 in Gaza. (Interviews in Gaza were completed on October 6.)Subsequent surveys after October 7 show support for Hamas has increased significantly. I post several of them earlier.
---
A two-state solution is not possible. Neither side wants it.
A two state solution is not possible...now. I completely agree with that.
But walling them off and blockading them in, with the idea that they could also go to places like the Congo isn't going to work either. It's completely inhumane, but it also is going to the a lawless place where terrorism will thrive.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 04, 2024, 02:16:40 PM
Completely disagree with your take on the clan structure. It is a suggestion to get away from Hamas and Hezbollah type governance. The Taliban are fundamentally Pashtun fundamentalst Islamic movement. The clan thing is pretty murky.
I think you are being too literal. The Taliban are a bunch of lawless, fundamentalist strongmen. That's exactly what is going to take over Gaza under this plan. And Israel will try, but they won't be able to contain them.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 04, 2024, 03:40:01 PM
They got their second state, Gaza, when Israel completely pulled out in 2005.
And did that offer Israel any security against terrorism? Answer: no.
So a two-state solution is "this is yours, this is ours, you leave us alone, we leave you alone." When offered this opportunity, the Palestinians did not do this.
lol.
If that was a two-state solution and Gaza were an independent nation, then Israel has been conducting war on Gaza for nearly two decades via its blockade, seizure of ships and repeated incursions. A blockade of a sovereign nation is an act of war under international law as is, obviously, a military invasion
Now, I'm not making that argument, since I don't believe Gaza is an independent sovereign state. But you do, and it's the logical conclusion of your position.
Well done.
Quote
Subsequent surveys after October 7 show support for Hamas has increased significantly. I post several of them earlier.
So you're saying the people fighting Israel became more popular among Gazans after Israel killed thousands of Gazans and reduced their homes to rubble?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/b0/d7/2bb0d7bc876c84bc203d5ef6424a5608.gif)
Hamas =\= Palestinians
Huh.
Billionaire hedge fund manager and major Harvard donor Bill Ackman seized on revelations that Harvard president Claudine Gay had plagiarized some passages in her academic work to underscore his calls for her removal following what he perceived as her mishandling of large protests against Israel's bombardment of Gaza on Harvard's campus.
An analysis by Business Insider found a similar pattern of plagiarism by Ackman's wife Neri Oxman, who became a tenured professor at MIT in 2017.
Oxman plagiarized multiple paragraphs of her 2010 doctoral dissertation, Business Insider found, including at least one passage directly lifted from other writers without citation.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-ackman-wife-neri-oxman-mit-dissertation-plagiarism-2024-1
Dammit. I think this means antisemitism hasn't been eliminated.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 04, 2024, 05:28:30 PM
Huh.
Billionaire hedge fund manager and major Harvard donor Bill Ackman seized on revelations that Harvard president Claudine Gay had plagiarized some passages in her academic work to underscore his calls for her removal following what he perceived as her mishandling of large protests against Israel's bombardment of Gaza on Harvard's campus.
An analysis by Business Insider found a similar pattern of plagiarism by Ackman's wife Neri Oxman, who became a tenured professor at MIT in 2017.
Oxman plagiarized multiple paragraphs of her 2010 doctoral dissertation, Business Insider found, including at least one passage directly lifted from other writers without citation.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-ackman-wife-neri-oxman-mit-dissertation-plagiarism-2024-1
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 04, 2024, 05:17:36 PM
Hamas =\= Palestinians
Wrong, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
and Palestine wiil be free
#neveragain
Glass houses and stones, or something like that. Billionaires should not control higher education. Ackman is an opportunist, nothing more.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on January 04, 2024, 06:03:21 PM
Glass houses and stones, or something like that. Billionaires should not control higher education. Ackman is an opportunist, nothing more.
I am outraged and demand his wife resign immediately
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 04, 2024, 05:34:22 PM
Dammit. I think this means antisemitism hasn't been eliminated.
She's part of the protected class
Probably didn't commit over 40 instances of plagiarism as the president of one of the world's most prestigious universities...disgusting and disgraceful, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 06:35:39 PM
Probably didn't commit over 40 instances of plagiarism as the president of one of the world's most prestigious universities...disgusting and disgraceful, aina?
Yep. Which is why she was rightfully forced out.
But plagiarism is plagiarism right?
Took a month and the cancellation of hundreds of millions in donations. Oh, and Harvard will not be fine, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 06:46:22 PM
Took a month and the cancellation of hundreds of millions in donations. Oh, and Harvard will not be fine, aina?
Harvard is absolutely fine. You really have no clue what you are talking about.
Right back at ya. Ackman is now calling for all the Trustees to resign. Early admission apps are down 17%. Jewish families are opting for schools like Vandy, Wash U and Emory because they fear for their children's safety in Cambridge. Harvard will not be fine, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 06:52:33 PM
Right back at ya. Ackman is now calling for all the Trustees to resign. Early admission apps are down 17%. Jewish families are opting for schools like Vandy, Wash U and Emory because they fear for their children's safety in Cambridge. Harvard will not be fine, hey?
No I know exactly what I am talking about and you have your brain mushed by being too online.
They will absolutely be fine. And time will prove you wrong - which is something you should be used to be now. Honestly one would think you would have enough self-reflection to realize that at this point.
Yet here you are...
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 04, 2024, 06:41:55 PM
Yep. Which is why she was rightfully forced out.
But plagiarism is plagiarism right?
Not if you're part of the protected class like Ackman's wife.
Anyone know where Gay's plagiarism evidence came to light?
I mean it's not exactly hidden what this was actually about. It's just that some people here continually fall hook line and sinker for it (and are happy to do so if it punishes the people they deem "protected class") and do their dirty work for them by being dog whistling victimization seekers
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/03/christopher-rufo-claudine-gay-harvard-resignation-00133618
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 04, 2024, 07:08:51 PM
I mean it's not exactly hidden what this was actually about. It's just that some people here continually fall hook line and sinker for it (and are happy to do so if it punishes the people they deem "protected class") and do their dirty work for them by being dog whistling victimization seekers
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/03/christopher-rufo-claudine-gay-harvard-resignation-00133618
Sure.
But did Rufo find the plagiarism on his own? Or did he stumble upon it somewhere else?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 06:35:39 PM
Probably didn't commit over 40 instances of plagiarism as the president of one of the world's most prestigious universities...disgusting and disgraceful, aina?
At least you're CONSISTENTLY massively hypocritical.
Remember when Rs were AGAIST cancel culture?
So plagiarism is ok? Particularly, if the goal is to get a DEI candidate. How demeaning. Guess it depends on context, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 07:24:58 PM
So plagiarism is ok? Particularly, if the goal is to get a DEI candidate. How demeaning. Guess it depends on context, aina?
No, it isn't. That's why Ackman's wife should lose her job. I fully expect outrage over this. If not, MIT is doomed
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 07:24:58 PM
So plagiarism is ok? Particularly, if the goal is to get a DEI candidate. How demeaning. Guess it depends on context, aina?
No it's not. Why would you minimize alleged plagiarism made by Bill Ackman's wife?
<looks at her picture>
Ahhh...nevermind. I know why.
MIT is next, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 04, 2024, 07:32:59 PM
Yes, Ackman's wife is a disgrace
big fan of Epstein's money
what's the over/under for plagiarism nowadays? gotta be around 38-39 eyn'a it wasn't until they found another bakers dozen until she finally said UNCLE reeko
but, gets to keep her $1 mil salary and her "teaching" job...ho boy, what class does she teach? how to "how to copy other peoples writings without attribution" peacefully of course
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 04, 2024, 07:57:06 PM
what's the over/under for plagiarism nowadays? gotta be around 38-39 eyn'a it wasn't until they found another bakers dozen until she finally said UNCLE reeko
but, gets to keep her $1 mil salary and her "teaching" job...ho boy, what class does she teach? how to "how to copy other peoples writings without attribution" peacefully of course
8 out of 10
Nm
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 07:31:20 PM
MIT is next, hey?
I really hope not, but it seems inevitable. But, I'm on record saying I did not want Magill to resign. I didn't want Gay to be forced out either, but unfortunately for her she played fast and loose with academic integrity in a position that should be held to the highest standard in that regard. I did read that the original writer of one of the recent examples of plagiarism said he didn't think Gay did in fact plagiarize. Seems to me there is a lot of this in academia and in this case it was used to get Gay out. Not everyone who plagiarizes, though, just when an opportunist comes a callin'.
It will be interesting to see if the MIT president is also replaced by a white man. A clean sweep for Ackman and his cronies. Although, I understand these are interim choices.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on January 04, 2024, 08:22:45 PM
I really hope not, but it seems inevitable. But, I'm on record saying I did not want Magill to resign. I didn't want Gay to be forced out either, but unfortunately for her she played fast and loose with academic integrity in a position that should be held to the highest standard in that regard. I did read that the original writer of one of the recent examples of plagiarism said he didn't think Gay did in fact plagiarize. Seems to me there is a lot of this in academia and in this case it was used to get Gay out. Not everyone who plagiarizes, though, just when an opportunist comes a callin'.
It will be interesting to see if the MIT president is also replaced by a white man. A clean sweep for Ackman and his cronies. Although, I understand these are interim choices.
Why? That hire would be making it up to the real victims in all this.
agree plagiarism is plagiarism but 50 instances is not one. Both should suffer the consequences though
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 04, 2024, 06:52:33 PM
Right back at ya. Ackman is now calling for all the Trustees to resign. Early admission apps are down 17%. Jewish families are opting for schools like Vandy, Wash U and Emory because they fear for their children's safety in Cambridge. Harvard will not be fine, hey?
Why isn't Ackman calling for his plagiarist wife to resign?
She's part of the most protected class in America - rich, white people.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 04, 2024, 08:39:13 PM
agree plagiarism is plagiarism but 50 instances is not one. Both should suffer the consequences though
Well, there were at least four instances in her thesis, not one. Who knows what might be found in her other work.
But really, I don't care all that much about plagiarism in academiia. Neither does anyone else here.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 04, 2024, 09:48:41 PM
Well, there were at least four instances in her thesis, not one. Who knows what might be found in her other work.
But really, I don't care all that much about plagiarism in academiia. Neither does anyone else here.
Oh, I definitely don't. But I do care about hypocrisy.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 04, 2024, 07:57:06 PM
what's the over/under for plagiarism nowadays? gotta be around 38-39 eyn'a it wasn't until they found another bakers dozen until she finally said UNCLE reeko
but, gets to keep her $1 mil salary and her "teaching" job...ho boy, what class does she teach? how to "how to copy other peoples writings without attribution" peacefully of course
I wonder if Gay would allow any of her employees to shave their heads in solidarity with friends going through cancer treatment?
There were multiple posters here up in arms about Gay's plagiarism (and definitely NOT her responses to the Israel questions).
If logic and values hold true, those same posters will be up in arms about Mrs. Ackman's alleged plagiarism.
I won't hold my breath
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 04, 2024, 10:20:47 PM
There were multiple posters here up in arms about Gay's plagiarism (and definitely NOT her responses to the Israel questions).
If logic and values hold true, those same posters will be up in arms about Mrs. Ackman's alleged plagiarism.
I won't hold my breath
Just pawns told to be up in arms
https://theathletic.com/5179786/2024/01/04/kyrie-irving-rabbi-jazz-game/
Kolek 'em, aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Kyrie's an idiot but every arena in the NBA would have done the same thing.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 04, 2024, 10:18:55 PM
I wonder if Gay would allow any of her employees to shave their heads in solidarity with friends going through cancer treatment?
No you don't
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 05, 2024, 06:29:03 AM
Kyrie's an idiot but every arena in the NBA would have done the same thing.
Antisemitic idiot, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 06:58:42 AM
Antisemitic idiot, aina?
He is. Reminds me of so many of the antisemites, and supporters of antisemitism, you constantly back. Except that he's Black, so you certainly would never support him.
I do not support ANY antisemitics, blue, black, green, or red. I push back against ALL antisemites...period, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:14:31 AM
I do not support ANY antisemitics, blue, black, green, or red. I push back against ALL antisemites...period, hey?
Sure, Jan
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:14:31 AM
I do not support ANY antisemitics, blue, black, green, or red. I push back against ALL antisemites...period, hey?
LOLOLOLOL.
Except for Musk, Greene, Gosar, Tuckems, etc. etc. etc. etc.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:14:31 AM
I do not support ANY antisemitics, blue, black, green, or red. I push back against ALL antisemites...period, hey?
Well, we know that's not true.
And you certainly back a guy who has a long history of accepting and soliciting support from raging antisemites - people who would be happy to eradicate all Jewish vermin from the face of the earth.
Clearly depends on the context. Like doxxing.
Does associating with/accepting support from anti-semites/racists necessarily make you anti-Semitic/racist? Or just an enabler of those things.
Not that it's any better, but I think the latter is the realm of shameless opportunists that litter the political and social media influencer space.
Obviously we all know who is being referred to above, but outside of him, I've seen it unfairly used with people I don't agree with at all in this particular conflict. They gleefully and enthusiastically embrace the boosting or expanding of their message by anti-Semites even though nothing about them previously would point to being an out and out Jew hater.
TL/DR labels like racist, anti-Semitic homophobe, transphobe, etc... get meted out far too frivolously, even if the person being labeled is an otherwise seemingly crappy person
Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2024, 12:43:02 PM
Does associating with/accepting support from anti-semites/racists necessarily make you anti-Semitic/racist?
Nope. But when you claim 1,000 times that you abhor antisemitism even as you enthusiastically back people who associate with and accept support from antisemites, it makes you a hypocrite and it undermines your "cause."
I do agree with your overall thesis, Wags.
You're a hoot, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 12:53:01 PM
You're a hoot, aina?
Your antisemitic-adjacent friends are just pawns - depending on the context, of course.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2024, 12:43:02 PM
Does associating with/accepting support from anti-semites/racists necessarily make you anti-Semitic/racist? Or just an enabler of those things.
Not that it's any better, but I think the latter is the realm of shameless opportunists that litter the political and social media influencer space.
Obviously we all know who is being referred to above, but outside of him, I've seen it unfairly used with people I don't agree with at all in this particular conflict. They gleefully and enthusiastically embrace the boosting or expanding of their message by anti-Semites even though nothing about them previously would point to being an out and out Jew hater.
TL/DR labels like racist, anti-Semitic homophobe, transphobe, etc... get meted out far too frivolously, even if the person being labeled is an otherwise seemingly crappy person
Telling people of a religion they are wrong about how they should feel about the violent actions of their fellow members, and belittling them for speaking out about it when you do not belong to that religion is what then?
Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2024, 12:43:02 PM
Does associating with/accepting support from anti-semites/racists necessarily make you anti-Semitic/racist? Or just an enabler of those things.
Not that it's any better, but I think the latter is the realm of shameless opportunists that litter the political and social media influencer space.
Obviously we all know who is being referred to above, but outside of him, I've seen it unfairly used with people I don't agree with at all in this particular conflict. They gleefully and enthusiastically embrace the boosting or expanding of their message by anti-Semites even though nothing about them previously would point to being an out and out Jew hater.
TL/DR labels like racist, anti-Semitic homophobe, transphobe, etc... get meted out far too frivolously, even if the person being labeled is an otherwise seemingly crappy person
I don't know, do you hang out with a bunch of racist people? My guess is you don't. Why??? Because you're not racist. If you're friendly with a bunch of racists, yeah I think that would be a VERY poor reflection on you.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2024, 12:43:02 PM
Does associating with/accepting support from anti-semites/racists necessarily make you anti-Semitic/racist? Or just an enabler of those things.
Not that it's any better, but I think the latter is the realm of shameless opportunists that litter the political and social media influencer space.
Obviously we all know who is being referred to above, but outside of him, I've seen it unfairly used with people I don't agree with at all in this particular conflict. They gleefully and enthusiastically embrace the boosting or expanding of their message by anti-Semites even though nothing about them previously would point to being an out and out Jew hater.
TL/DR labels like racist, anti-Semitic homophobe, transphobe, etc... get meted out far too frivolously, even if the person being labeled is an otherwise seemingly crappy person
I think the opposite is true. Too many times, instead of criticizing racist statements, I hear things like:
We don't really know what is in his heart, right?
I didn't see / hear his racist statement, so I'm not sure / not going to provide my opinion
Oh, that's just him. He says silly thing sometimes, but don't listen to what he says, watch what he does
Whoopsie!
It's ok, though, Gorsuch isn't a black female.
Gorsuch's writings borrow from other authors
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/gorsuch-writings-supreme-court-236891
"The documents show that several passages from the tenth chapter of his 2006 book, "The Future of Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia," read nearly verbatim to a 1984 article in the Indiana Law Journal. In several other instances in that book and an academic article published in 2000, Gorsuch borrowed from the ideas, quotes and structures of scholarly and legal works without citing them."
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on January 05, 2024, 03:50:38 PM
Whoopsie!
It's ok, though, Gorsuch isn't a black female.
Gorsuch's writings borrow from other authors
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/gorsuch-writings-supreme-court-236891
"The documents show that several passages from the tenth chapter of his 2006 book, "The Future of Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia," read nearly verbatim to a 1984 article in the Indiana Law Journal. In several other instances in that book and an academic article published in 2000, Gorsuch borrowed from the ideas, quotes and structures of scholarly and legal works without citing them."
He's a member of a protected class, though.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 05, 2024, 02:39:32 PM
Telling people of a religion they are wrong about how they should feel about the violent actions of their fellow members, and belittling them for speaking out about it when you do not belong to that religion is what then?
I didn't speak to that at all. I'm not trying to pretend there isn't rampant anti-semitism out there, cause there is. But I also think it can be a incorrectly used broad brush label (as we've seen in this very thread.
Quote from: SoCalEagle on January 05, 2024, 03:26:29 PM
I don't know, do you hang out with a bunch of racist people? My guess is you don't. Why??? Because you're not racist. If you're friendly with a bunch of racists, yeah I think that would be a VERY poor reflection on you.
To be fair, I was speaking more online/social media/message board fodder sort of stuff, when people are speaking on public figures or others in the news. I think people are far less inclined to throw reckless labels on people they know personally whether family/friends/work.
Though, in reality, I can think of various times Ive seen or heard people be deemed racist or suspected racist cause of their parents/family reputation...without the person giving the label knowing them at all really. But its been awhile and it was nobody that close to me.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on January 05, 2024, 03:50:38 PM
Whoopsie!
It's ok, though, Gorsuch isn't a black female.
Gorsuch's writings borrow from other authors
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/gorsuch-writings-supreme-court-236891
"The documents show that several passages from the tenth chapter of his 2006 book, "The Future of Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia," read nearly verbatim to a 1984 article in the Indiana Law Journal. In several other instances in that book and an academic article published in 2000, Gorsuch borrowed from the ideas, quotes and structures of scholarly and legal works without citing them."
The Supreme Court is doomed.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2024, 04:26:16 PM
I didn't speak to that at all. I'm not trying to pretend there isn't rampant anti-semitism out there, cause there is. But I also think it can be a incorrectly used broad brush label (as we've seen in this very thread.
To be fair, I was speaking more online/social media/message board fodder sort of stuff, when people are speaking on public figures or others in the news. I think people are far less inclined to throw reckless labels on people they know personally whether family/friends/work.
Though, in reality, I can think of various times Ive seen or heard people be deemed racist or suspected racist cause of their parents/family reputation...without the person giving the label knowing them at all really. But its been awhile and it was nobody that close to me.
To clarify I wasn't saying you are pretending my example is not. I was posing that the broad usage of the label in bad faith enables the very thing that it's claiming to be calling out. Whether that's cynically intentional or not bothering to think critically well that's up for interpretation.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 05, 2024, 04:57:28 PM
The Supreme Court is doomed.
The Supreme Court won't be ok
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on January 05, 2024, 03:50:38 PM
Whoopsie!
It's ok, though, Gorsuch isn't a black female.
Gorsuch's writings borrow from other authors
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/gorsuch-writings-supreme-court-236891
"The documents show that several passages from the tenth chapter of his 2006 book, "The Future of Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia," read nearly verbatim to a 1984 article in the Indiana Law Journal. In several other instances in that book and an academic article published in 2000, Gorsuch borrowed from the ideas, quotes and structures of scholarly and legal works without citing them."
Not surprising. If one would go through scholarly works with a fine tooth comb, particularly in the arts (I would say less so in the sciences) and letters realms, you will find a lot, maybe even most authors would be guilty of plagiarism. Not because of anything intentional, moreso laziness, and forgetting to write down sources when they are taking notes, and then later forgetting that your notes came from someone else, not yourself.
In the sciences, that is likely less common, because really only introductions/conclusions have a lot of references to other literature sources, and they are usually very highly cited sections. What is rampant in the sciences rather, is citing the wrong reference, again...because of laziness, where the author didn't write down the source at the time of taking notes, and later misremembered which source the data/statements came from.
This could become a people in glass houses situation, where they were so fired up about doing everything they could to remove someone, that they forgot to ask if they really should, and others they don't want gone, might get caught up in the aftermath as collateral damage.
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2024, 05:35:06 PM
Not surprising. If one would go through scholarly works with a fine tooth comb, particularly in the arts (I would say less so in the sciences) and letters realms, you will find a lot, maybe even most authors would be guilty of plagiarism. Not because of anything intentional, moreso laziness, and forgetting to write down sources when they are taking notes, and then later forgetting that your notes came from someone else, not yourself.
In the sciences, that is likely less common, because really only introductions/conclusions have a lot of references to other literature sources, and they are usually very highly cited sections. What is rampant in the sciences rather, is citing the wrong reference, again...because of laziness, where the author didn't write down the source at the time of taking notes, and later misremembered which source the data/statements came from.
This could become a people in glass houses situation, where they were so fired up about doing everything they could to remove someone, that they forgot to ask if they really should, and others they don't want gone, might get caught up in the aftermath as collateral damage.
The gloves are coming off ... and Ackman has the resources to make this happen.
5:01 PM · Jan 5, 2024
@BillAckman
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1743407502312505795?s=20
My wife, @NeriOxman, was just contacted by Business Insider claiming that they have identified other plagiarism in her work including 15 examples in her dissertation where she did not cite Wikipedia as a source.
Business Insider told us that they are publishing their story this evening. As a result, we don't have time to research their claims prior to publication.
It is unfortunate that my actions to address problems in higher education have led to these attacks on my family.
This experience has inspired me to save all news organizations from the trouble of doing plagiarism reviews.
We will begin with a review of the work of all current @MIT faculty members, President Kornbluth, other officers of the Corporation, and its board members for plagiarism.
We will be using MIT's own plagiarism standards which can be found here:
https://integrity.mit.edu/handbook/what-plagiarism
We will share our findings in the public domain as they are completed in the spirit of transparency.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 04, 2024, 07:57:06 PM
what's the over/under for plagiarism nowadays? gotta be around 38-39 eyn'a it wasn't until they found another bakers dozen until she finally said UNCLE reeko
but, gets to keep her $1 mil salary and her "teaching" job...ho boy, what class does she teach? how to "how to copy other peoples writings without attribution" peacefully of course
Up to 29!
https://www.businessinsider.com/neri-oxman-plagiarize-wikipedia-mit-dissertation-2024-1
Quote from: MU82 on January 04, 2024, 09:03:20 PM
Why isn't Ackman calling for his plagiarist wife to resign?
She's part of the most protected class in America - rich, white people.
She is also a former first lieutenant in the Israeli Air Force.
Probably trained to commit genocide.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 05, 2024, 06:16:34 PM
Up to 29!
https://www.businessinsider.com/neri-oxman-plagiarize-wikipedia-mit-dissertation-2024-1
They'll be insisting on her resignation.
Any...moment...now.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 05, 2024, 06:10:33 PM
The gloves are coming off ... and Ackman has the resources to make this happen.
5:01 PM · Jan 5, 2024
@BillAckman
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1743407502312505795?s=20
My wife, @NeriOxman, was just contacted by Business Insider claiming that they have identified other plagiarism in her work including 15 examples in her dissertation where she did not cite Wikipedia as a source.
Business Insider told us that they are publishing their story this evening. As a result, we don't have time to research their claims prior to publication.
It is unfortunate that my actions to address problems in higher education have led to these attacks on my family.
This experience has inspired me to save all news organizations from the trouble of doing plagiarism reviews.
We will begin with a review of the work of all current @MIT faculty members, President Kornbluth, other officers of the Corporation, and its board members for plagiarism.
We will be using MIT's own plagiarism standards which can be found here:
https://integrity.mit.edu/handbook/what-plagiarism
We will share our findings in the public domain as they are completed in the spirit of transparency.
He's the one who started this.
If he had any integrity, he'd call for his wife to resign too. Instead he is going after others again.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2024, 04:26:16 PM
I didn't speak to that at all. I'm not trying to pretend there isn't rampant anti-semitism out there, cause there is. But I also think it can be a incorrectly used broad brush label (as we've seen in this very thread.
To be fair, I was speaking more online/social media/message board fodder sort of stuff, when people are speaking on public figures or others in the news. I think people are far less inclined to throw reckless labels on people they know personally whether family/friends/work.
Though, in reality, I can think of various times Ive seen or heard people be deemed racist or suspected racist cause of their parents/family reputation...without the person giving the label knowing them at all really. But its been awhile and it was nobody that close to me.
I've noticed you almost always start in the center on topics and work outward from there.
Probably a good quality to have.
Bill Ackman's wife is doomed
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2024, 06:38:35 PM
He's the one who started this.
If he had any integrity, he'd call for his wife to resign too. Instead he is going after others again.
"It's OK if we do it!"
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2024, 06:38:35 PM
He's the one who started this.
If he had any integrity, he'd call for his wife to resign too. Instead he is going after others again.
The problem is, it was never about plagiarism. But now that's the line in the sand.
So antisemitism, as an official university policy, is ok? Thanks for making your position very clear to the rest of us. Or does it depend on context, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:02:36 PM
So antisemitism, as an official university policy, is ok? Thanks for making your position very clear to the rest of us. Or does it depend on context, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Can you please share a source that demonstrates that a university has antisemitism has it's public policy?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 05, 2024, 07:07:30 PM
Can you please share a source that demonstrates that a university has antisemitism has it's public policy?
He can't. Shifting the goalposts again. Just like why plagiarism became an issue
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:02:36 PM
So antisemitism, as an official university policy, is ok? Thanks for making your position very clear to the rest of us. Or does it depend on context, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
LOLOLOL. Maybe you should repeat "protected class" a few more times, we didn't get your meaning the first 50 times.
When will you be calling for Oxman and Gorsuch's resignations? Right after you call out Tuckems & Co?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 05, 2024, 07:07:30 PM
Can you please share a source that demonstrates that a university has antisemitism has it's public policy?
Please stop with the insane, immature, and automatic response in every thread in which you disagree. Some things are so blatantly obvious that a middle schooler can figure them out. Just try to comprehend what's written. You sound like a lawyer wannabe, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:19:29 PM
Please stop with the insane, immature, and automatic response in every thread in which you disagree. Some things are so blatantly obvious that a middle schooler can figure them out. Just try to comprehend what's written. You sound like a lawyer wannabe, hey?
That excludes dentists
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:19:29 PM
Please stop with the insane, immature, and automatic response in every thread in which you disagree. Some things are so blatantly obvious that a middle schooler can figure them out. Just try to comprehend what's written. You sound like a lawyer wannabe, hey?
I disagree with your original post because I do not believe any university is antisemitic by their official policy. Which is what you stated.
Some things are so blatantly obvious indeed.
If you'd like to amend your original statement, I'll allow it.
Try Harvard, Penn, and MIT for starters, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:32:02 PM
Try Harvard, Penn, and MIT for starters, hey?
So you'd like universities to crack down on students/employees who use language you don't like? Is that what you're saying?
I noticed we moved beyond plagiarism quickly. Weird.
Not weird or whatever thought you meant to convey. Plagiarism, alone, should disqualify a university president from the position. Gay hung on for a month. Shockin' or isn't it. See two can play this game, hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 05, 2024, 07:34:32 PM
So you'd like universities to crack down on students/employees who use language you don't like? Is that what you're saying?
I noticed we moved beyond plagiarism quickly. Weird.
jesman, you seem to ask A LOT of questions kinda like fishing. tro the line out there and see who bites, eyn'a?
Yes, the problem here is people asking questions, and definitely not Gorsuch's and Oxman's plagiarism. Indeed.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:19:29 PM
Please stop with the insane, immature, and automatic response in every thread in which you disagree. Some things are so blatantly obvious that a middle schooler can figure them out. Just try to comprehend what's written. You sound like a lawyer wannabe, hey?
You're just a hypocrite.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 05, 2024, 06:10:33 PM
The gloves are coming off ... and Ackman has the resources to make this happen.
5:01 PM · Jan 5, 2024
@BillAckman
https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1743407502312505795?s=20
My wife, @NeriOxman, was just contacted by Business Insider claiming that they have identified other plagiarism in her work including 15 examples in her dissertation where she did not cite Wikipedia as a source.
Business Insider told us that they are publishing their story this evening. As a result, we don't have time to research their claims prior to publication.
It is unfortunate that my actions to address problems in higher education have led to these attacks on my family.
This experience has inspired me to save all news organizations from the trouble of doing plagiarism reviews.
We will begin with a review of the work of all current @MIT faculty members, President Kornbluth, other officers of the Corporation, and its board members for plagiarism.
We will be using MIT's own plagiarism standards which can be found here:
https://integrity.mit.edu/handbook/what-plagiarism
We will share our findings in the public domain as they are completed in the spirit of transparency.
So you don't care about plagiarism. You just care about the feelings of some guy you follow on X. Honestly I doubt you really care about antisemitism either.
So you're just some pathetic guy who holds no standards and can't think on his own.
Shocking.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 05, 2024, 08:33:03 PM
You're just a hypocrite.
Once again, I just have to tip my hat to the right wing's manipulation of language.
Hypocrite/hypocrisy are sequences of letters that simply no longer have any meaning to them, any more than does kjeyqklm. Hypocrisy is no longer something to be embarrassed about, the very concept has been erased from their lexicon.
Whatever argument or position benefits them in the moment is what they make, and the fact that it directly contradicts a position of statement they made moments ago matters not in the least. The entire meaning and existence of the word has been snuffed out in their world.
I mean, job well done. It's impressive.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on January 05, 2024, 08:17:54 PM
Yes, the problem here is people asking questions, and definitely not Gorsuch's and Oxman's plagiarism. Indeed.
This was so very predictable. They pasted everyone's work into a Google search and this is what they found.
But of course people like Douchey and the Dentists can't be intellectually consistent when there's a culture war to fight.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 05, 2024, 06:57:46 PM
The problem is, it was never about plagiarism. But now that's the line in the sand.
Jesu, you got it. This is what I was posting the other day when all this stuff started.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 05, 2024, 07:34:32 PM
So you'd like universities to crack down on students/employees who use language you don't like? Is that what you're saying?
I noticed we moved beyond plagiarism quickly. Weird.
That's exactly what he's saying. That's the whole point behind telling Jewish people how they should feel about things.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 05, 2024, 12:43:02 PM
Does associating with/accepting support from anti-semites/racists necessarily make you anti-Semitic/racist? Or just an enabler of those things.
Not that it's any better, but I think the latter is the realm of shameless opportunists that litter the political and social media influencer space.
Obviously we all know who is being referred to above, but outside of him, I've seen it unfairly used with people I don't agree with at all in this particular conflict. They gleefully and enthusiastically embrace the boosting or expanding of their message by anti-Semites even though nothing about them previously would point to being an out and out Jew hater.
TL/DR labels like racist, anti-Semitic homophobe, transphobe, etc... get meted out far too frivolously, even if the person being labeled is an otherwise seemingly crappy person
100% - big reason why non basketball Scoop is such a cesspool.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 05, 2024, 08:14:25 PM
jesman, you seem to ask A LOT of questions kinda like fishing. tro the line out there and see who bites, eyn'a?
Just trying to understand/clarify his positions.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 05, 2024, 07:55:57 PM
Not weird or whatever thought you meant to convey. Plagiarism, alone, should disqualify a university president from the position. Gay hung on for a month. Shockin' or isn't it. See two can play this game, hey?
Should plagiarism only disqualify a university president? What about other academic positions at a university?
Also, mind answering this: "So you'd like universities to crack down on students/employees who use language you don't like? Is that what you're saying?"
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 05, 2024, 08:46:15 PM
This was so very predictable. They pasted everyone's work into a Google search and this is what they found.
But of course people like Douchey and the Dentists can't be intellectually consistent when there's a culture war to fight.
Remember when family values mattered to certain people? Find new culture wars to fight. When your side is exposed as frauds, move on. Just remember, Donald Trump destroyed all those norms they fought for because Barack Obama was black and Trump got political on Fox News trying to prove he was born in Kenya. They threw away all those values to back that guy.
The hypocrisy is so astounding it's beyond description.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 05, 2024, 08:46:15 PM
This was so very predictable. They pasted everyone's work into a Google search and this is what they found.
But of course people like Douchey and the Dentists can't be intellectually consistent when there's a culture war to fight.
Here is her defense on the first batch of accusations. She did cite the sources, and she forgot to use quotation marks.
Very long, specific, and highly detailed.
https://x.com/NeriOxman/status/1742993073078947843?s=20
The second batch of allegations was posted four hours ago. I'll await her rebuttal.
---
My point is now that it's a "game on," with a billionaire with the resources to check the entire faculty of MIT, where do you think they will be in a month? How many credible allegations of plagiarism will there be across all of MIT?
And if the standard for plagiarism and dismissal is "forgot quotations but cited the source," who will be left at MIT?
Then Ackman will turn to Harvard. Who knows, by next year, others will join in and they will get to MU.
Where does this stop?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 05, 2024, 10:01:35 PM
Here is her defense on the first batch of accusations. She did cite the sources, and she forgot to use quotation marks.
Very long, specific, and highly detailed.
https://x.com/NeriOxman/status/1742993073078947843?s=20
The second batch of allegations was posted four hours ago. I'll await her rebuttal.
---
My point is now that it's a "game on," with a billionaire with the resources to check the entire faculty of MIT, where do you think they will be in a month? How many credible allegations of plagiarism will there be across MIT?
Then he will turn to Harvard. Who knows, by next year, they will get to MU.
Where does this stop?
Wow, look, my actions have consequences
Look like Ackman shot himself in the foot.
Or, shot his wife in the foot.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 05, 2024, 10:03:54 PM
Wow, look, my actions have consequences
Yes, the Harvard Corporation tried to sweep the original allegations under the rug back in October because they hired someone unqualified to lead their university.
As you said, actions have consequences.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 05, 2024, 10:29:17 PM
Yes, the Harvard Corporation tried to sweep the original allegations under the rug back in October because they hired someone unqualified to lead their university.
As you said, actions have consequences.
Not for the privileged class. Bill Ackman's wife will be fine
Quote from: SoCalEagle on January 05, 2024, 10:16:54 PM
Look like Ackman shot himself in the foot.
Or, shot his wife in the foot.
Nah, she's part of the protected class. Look at scoopers avoiding condemning her.
Just a pawn.
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2024, 05:35:06 PM
Not surprising. If one would go through scholarly works with a fine tooth comb, particularly in the arts (I would say less so in the sciences) and letters realms, you will find a lot, maybe even most authors would be guilty of plagiarism. Not because of anything intentional, moreso laziness, and forgetting to write down sources when they are taking notes, and then later forgetting that your notes came from someone else, not yourself.
In the sciences, that is likely less common, because really only introductions/conclusions have a lot of references to other literature sources, and they are usually very highly cited sections. What is rampant in the sciences rather, is citing the wrong reference, again...because of laziness, where the author didn't write down the source at the time of taking notes, and later misremembered which source the data/statements came from.
This could become a people in glass houses situation, where they were so fired up about doing everything they could to remove someone, that they forgot to ask if they really should, and others they don't want gone, might get caught up in the aftermath as collateral damage.
Truth, alluded to this earlier.
nm
so, in summary, the mopes were all against pressure on gay to resign and/or be fired. sounds like we gots ourselves a slew of DEI racists here
first off, gay was proven to be an anti-semite and then found to have copied a bunch of others ideas for her dissertations
attack the attackers and then go all what aboutism on it. what do the lefties do?
better call saul, eyn'a?
make the enemy live up to it's own rules
pick their targets, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it
keep the pressure on
ridicule is man's most potent weapon
never go outside of the expertise of your people
exhibit 1- heels up
exhibit 2-all non-biologists. for those of you in rio linda-can't define female
keep your eyes on the ball boys. the real problem here is unqualified people in positions of power. if it was a black female they really wanted, there are so many qualified black females very much qualified to fill the position. the anger should be directed at the fact that they chose someone like gay to represent them, because it does not represent them...or does it???
they hire someone who has that 'force field" in front of them-
if you disagree-
you're a racist
you're a misogynist
you're a hater
you are dumb
what about... fill in the blank
attackattackattack-make it personal
umm, but wait...this is about claudine...oh that was so "they all do it' a long time ago.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 05, 2024, 10:01:35 PM
Here is her defense on the first batch of accusations. She did cite the sources, and she forgot to use quotation marks.
Very long, specific, and highly detailed.
https://x.com/NeriOxman/status/1742993073078947843?s=20
The second batch of allegations was posted four hours ago. I'll await her rebuttal.
---
My point is now that it's a "game on," with a billionaire with the resources to check the entire faculty of MIT, where do you think they will be in a month? How many credible allegations of plagiarism will there be across all of MIT?
And if the standard for plagiarism and dismissal is "forgot quotations but cited the source," who will be left at MIT?
Then Ackman will turn to Harvard. Who knows, by next year, others will join in and they will get to MU.
Where does this stop?
lol. Pretty much what I expected from you.
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2024, 05:35:06 PM
Not surprising. If one would go through scholarly works with a fine tooth comb, particularly in the arts (I would say less so in the sciences) and letters realms, you will find a lot, maybe even most authors would be guilty of plagiarism. Not because of anything intentional, moreso laziness, and forgetting to write down sources when they are taking notes, and then later forgetting that your notes came from someone else, not yourself.
So our most esteemed scholars in the arts are, in your words, typically lazy and forgetful. I'm not surprised.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 05, 2024, 10:03:54 PM
Wow, look, my actions have consequences
But consequences are only for the plebes.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2024, 07:16:28 AM
So our most esteemed scholars in the arts are, in your words, typically lazy and forgetful. I'm not surprised.
That's a typically lazy misstating of what forgetful wrote.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 06, 2024, 07:26:35 AM
That's a typically lazy misstating of what forgetful wrote.
??? LOL
His own words: in the arts "MOST authors would be guilty of plagiarism, not because of anything intentional, moreso LAZINESS and FORGETTING....."
What exactly did I lazily "misstate".
Mods: The title of this topic needs to be changed again to reflect the deep concern Scoopers have about plagiarism.
(Unless they happen to like the plagiarist and/or his or her spouse. Then plagiarism no matta.)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2024, 07:59:57 AM
??? LOL
His own words: in the arts "MOST authors would be guilty of plagiarism, not because of anything intentional, moreso LAZINESS and FORGETTING....."
What exactly did I lazily "misstate".
He didn't write that "our most esteemed scholars in the arts are typically lazy and forgetful." You twisted his words to ... I don't know... take cheap shot at scholars in the arts? They may never recover from such a zinger.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 06, 2024, 08:09:21 AM
He didn't write that "our most esteemed scholars in the arts are typically lazy and forgetful." You twisted his words to ... I don't know... take cheap shot at scholars in the arts? They may never recover from such a zinger.
Doctors in the arts are considered our most esteemed scholars in their fields. Forgetful says that MOST of them are lazy and forgetful in their writings. If you have a problem it's with him not me. But by all means twist things so you can defend your fellow traveler and attack me. It's you being you.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 06, 2024, 06:30:44 AM
so, in summary, the mopes were all against pressure on gay to resign and/or be fired. sounds like we gots ourselves a slew of DEI racists here
first off, gay was proven to be an anti-semite and then found to have copied a bunch of others ideas for her dissertations
attack the attackers and then go all what aboutism on it. what do the lefties do?
better call saul, eyn'a?
make the enemy live up to it's own rules
pick their targets, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it
keep the pressure on
ridicule is man's most potent weapon
never go outside of the expertise of your people
exhibit 1- heels up
exhibit 2-all non-biologists. for those of you in rio linda-can't define female
keep your eyes on the ball boys. the real problem here is unqualified people in positions of power. if it was a black female they really wanted, there are so many qualified black females very much qualified to fill the position. the anger should be directed at the fact that they chose someone like gay to represent them, because it does not represent them...or does it???
they hire someone who has that 'force field" in front of them-
if you disagree-
you're a racist
you're a misogynist
you're a hater
you are dumb
what about... fill in the blank
attackattackattack-make it personal
umm, but wait...this is about claudine...oh that was so "they all do it' a long time ago.
9.5 out of 10
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2024, 08:15:24 AM
Doctors in the arts are considered our most esteemed scholars in their fields. Forgetful says that MOST of them are lazy and forgetful in their writings. If you have a problem it's with him not me. But by all means twist things so you can defend your fellow traveler and attack me. It's you being you.
Oh, Lenny. Stop playing the victim. I didn't attack *you*. I didn't call you a name or insult your intelligence. Or say "it's you being you." I called out your intentional misstating of what forgetful had written to inject a tired (and false) talking point.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 06, 2024, 08:41:07 AM
Oh, Lenny. Stop playing the victim. I didn't attack *you*. I didn't call you a name or insult your intelligence. Or say "it's you being you." I called out your intentional misstating of what forgetful had written to inject a tired (and false) talking point.
BS
If I had written what forgetful wrote - that most doctors in the arts were lazy and forgetful - you would have been all over me. What's your source, you're making up things, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Assuming you're honest, you know that's true.
But forgetful wrote it, so it's crickets to him. And when I quote accurately what he wrote you pedantically go after me. I'm not claiming victimhood. I'm amused by your response. It was as predictable as it was bogus.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 06, 2024, 05:26:40 AM
Better than being an antisemite, aina?
You give precisely zero fucks about antisemitism. If you did, you'd call out blatant antisemites like Tuckems and Musk. But you are too cowardly and dishonest to do so.
Lol, hey?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2024, 08:51:45 AM
BS
If I had written what forgetful wrote - that most doctors in the arts were lazy and forgetful - you would have been all over me. What's your source, you're making up things, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Assuming you're honest, you know that's true.
But forgetful wrote it, so it's crickets to him. And when I quote accurately what he wrote you pedantically go after me. I'm not claiming victimhood. I'm amused by your response. It was as predictable as it was bogus.
Person A: LeBron made a lazy defensive play last night.
Person B: Some, if not most, NBA players make a lazy defensive play during their career.
Lenny: Person B says the best NBA players are lazy human beings! That's no surprise!
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 06, 2024, 06:30:44 AM
so, in summary, the mopes were all against pressure on gay to resign and/or be fired. sounds like we gots ourselves a slew of DEI racists here
first off, gay was proven to be an anti-semite and then found to have copied a bunch of others ideas for her dissertations
attack the attackers and then go all what aboutism on it. what do the lefties do?
better call saul, eyn'a?
make the enemy live up to it's own rules
pick their targets, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it
keep the pressure on
ridicule is man's most potent weapon
never go outside of the expertise of your people
exhibit 1- heels up
exhibit 2-all non-biologists. for those of you in rio linda-can't define female
keep your eyes on the ball boys. the real problem here is unqualified people in positions of power. if it was a black female they really wanted, there are so many qualified black females very much qualified to fill the position. the anger should be directed at the fact that they chose someone like gay to represent them, because it does not represent them...or does it???
they hire someone who has that 'force field" in front of them-
if you disagree-
you're a racist
you're a misogynist
you're a hater
you are dumb
what about... fill in the blank
attackattackattack-make it personal
umm, but wait...this is about claudine...oh that was so "they all do it' a long time ago.
Who here spoke out against May getting fired? So your very first sentence is inaccurate.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 06, 2024, 11:09:03 AM
Person A: LeBron made a lazy defensive play last night.
Person B: Some, if not most, NBA players make a lazy defensive play during their career.
Lenny: Person B says the best NBA players are lazy human beings! That's no surprise!
No.
Person A: Some Doctor in the Arts plagiarized frequently.
Person B: Everyone in the Arts does it. Not intentionally, but because they're lazy and forgetful.
Lenny: So you're saying Doctors in the Arts are lazy and forgetful
Pakuni: What he said doesn't mean what it means. How dare you.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2024, 12:38:09 PM
No.
Person A: Some Doctor in the Arts plagiarized frequently.
Person B: Everyone in the Arts does it. Not intentionally, but because they're lazy and forgetful.
Lenny: So you're saying Doctors in the Arts are lazy and forgetful
Pakuni: What he said doesn't mean what it means. How dare you.
Dentist: (https://media.tenor.com/AohOo-xrtKYAAAAC/alex-jones-tin-foil-hat.gif)
Who's in?
@BillAckman
We are going to need help with our review of @MIT faculty and affiliates.
Please contact Fran McGill at mcgill@persq.com if your company has the capabilities to assist us.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/05/un-warns-gaza-is-now-uninhabitable-as-war-continues?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Awful
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2024, 07:16:28 AM
So our most esteemed scholars in the arts are, in your words, typically lazy and forgetful. I'm not surprised.
No.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 06, 2024, 11:09:03 AM
Person A: LeBron made a lazy defensive play last night.
Person B: Some, if not most, NBA players make a lazy defensive play during their career.
Lenny: Person B says the best NBA players are lazy human beings! That's no surprise!
This is a correct summary of the tone of my post.
We loosely say people like Lebron made a lazy defensive play, or forgot their defensive assignment, because we are comparing them to the absolute best in the world, comparing them to a level the average human couldn't even comprehend. No one makes the conclusion that when we say that, we mean that the best NBA players are lazy (or forgetful), because such a conclusion is inane.
Similarly...
These authors likely read 100's if not 1000's of sources in putting their publications together, all while being a full-time educator, holding administrative responsibilities, being mentors to young experts, and while editing/reviewing other peoples works. The average human has a hard time even understanding most of these 100's if not 1000's of materials, nonetheless dissecting them, and integrating them into sometimes massive independent scholarly works.
As an example, my colleague just finished a work which included over 1500 citations (that's referencing 1500 sources, the numbers of total citations is even higher). To culminate those citations, they probably read 3-5x that number of papers/books/resources. In such works, they will miss some citations, and likely miss assign a citation, because they either forgot/misremembered which source it came from, or didn't go through each citation with a fine tooth comb to make sure there were no errors (laziness), because they trusted that reviewers/editors might catch any errors.
Not to mention, that some of these aspects aren't even directly written by them, as they have co-authors.
With all this, it is not uncommon for areas to lack citations, which at face value appears to be plagiarism, but is not intentional and when reviewed by other scholars (which is what happened at Harvard) are deemed unintentional and not misconduct.
People went after a single person, and wouldn't let up until she was forced to resign. I'll let you ask, why was she singled out. I'll also let you ask, why they aren't going after Ackman's wife in the same way (copying word for word entire paragraphs without quotes). If they want to find others, they will, because it is like going back over tape and finding mistakes that Lebron made in a game.
I'll also ask you why you were "not surprised." I have my suspicions, but before you throw stones, I'd advise trying to write and publish some of these scholarly works. Maybe you have, I don't know you, but based on your response, I'm guessing you haven't.
Where I made a mistake is in posting on that matter at all, as it doesn't pertain at all to Israel, but instead was another example of identity politics and a strange culture war some feel like they need to fight.
Now, maybe we can get away from being hyper critical of scholars, and instead focus on a major crisis in Israel/Gaza.
Remember that Ackman is a short seller and activist investor. This effectively means his job is to take companies away from their billionaire owners. It is brutal and ugly business (and very lucrative if you do it well, like he does).
In other words, he lives in a world of conflict and chaos. That is what Pershing Square (his company) does for a living.
So now that it is "game on," Ackman has the mentality and the resources to do exactly what he says. This is not bluster when it comes from him. He lives for this.
Are we all happy that Pandora's box has been opened?
This is a long tweet; here is an excerpt.
---
(my highlights)
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1743792224020619450
Bill Ackman
@BillAckman
Last night, no one at @MIT had a good night's sleep.
Yesterday evening, shortly after I posted that we were launching a plagiarism review of all current MIT faculty, President Kornbluth, members of MIT's administration, and its board, I am sure that an audible collective gasp could be heard around the campus.
Why? Well, every faculty member knows that once their work is targeted by AI, they will be outed. No body of written work in academia can survive the power of AI searching for missing quotation marks, failures to paraphrase appropriately, and/or the failure to properly credit the work of others.
But it wasn't just the MIT faculty that did not sleep last night. The @Harvard faculty, its governing board members, and its administrative leadership did not sleep either. Because why would we stop at MIT?
Don't we have to do a deep dive into academic integrity at Harvard as well?
What about Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Penn, Dartmouth? You get the point.
While we are going to do a detailed review of plagiarism at MIT, we are not going to be the only ones who do so.
Every college and university in the world is going to have to do the same for themselves. They will do so because they will need to validate all plagiarism accusations, or someone else will do it for them.
LOL. Sure. Everyone is scared.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 06, 2024, 06:40:42 PM
Remember that Ackman is a short seller and activist investor. This effectively means his job is to take companies away from their billionaire owners. It is brutal and ugly business (and very lucrative if you do it well, like he does).
In other words, he lives in a world of conflict and chaos. That is what Pershing Square (his company) does for a living.
So now that it is "game on," Ackman has the mentality and the resources to do exactly what he says. This is not bluster when it comes from him. He lives for this.
I'm old enough to remember when a bunch of redditors took down Melvin Capital.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 06, 2024, 03:04:02 PM
Who's in?
@BillAckman
We are going to need help with our review of @MIT faculty and affiliates.
Please contact Fran McGill at mcgill@persq.com if your company has the capabilities to assist us.
Cyber Ninjas on line 1.
At least all this nonsense is taking focus away from it being the third anniversary of one of the worst days in our nation's history - a day when domestic terrorists, at the behest of the then-President of the United States, staged a violent coup attempt against America.
Hopefully our democracy can continue to survive, even as the ex-president - a racist and xenophobe who accepts and solicit supports from antisemites - tries to regain power. One of his main campaign promises is to pardon insurrectionists and seditionists who attacked the United States.
Seems to be that "Doctor" indicates the ability to discover or do original work. If the "Doctor" plagiarizes, appears to be more like a "Quack". If taking from another person's work, give the deserved reference.
Quote from: MU82 on January 06, 2024, 07:26:47 PM
At least all this nonsense is taking focus away from it being the third anniversary of one of the worst days in our nation's history - a day when domestic terrorists, at the behest of the then-President of the United States, staged a violent coup attempt against America.
Hopefully our democracy can continue to survive, even as the ex-president - a racist and xenophobe who accepts and solicit supports from antisemites - tries to regain power. One of his main campaign promises is to pardon insurrectionists and seditionists who attacked the United States.
Pure fiction, aina?
Quote from: MU82 on January 06, 2024, 07:26:47 PM
At least all this nonsense is taking focus away from it being the third anniversary of one of the worst days in our nation's history - a day when domestic terrorists, at the behest of the then-President of the United States, staged a violent coup attempt against America.
Hopefully our democracy can continue to survive, even as the ex-president - a racist and xenophobe who accepts and solicit supports from antisemites - tries to regain power. One of his main campaign promises is to pardon insurrectionists and seditionists who attacked the United States.
I wouldn't count on it. The law and order party have turned a blind eye but the hypocrisy on all subjects isn't a surprise
Quote from: Pakuni on January 06, 2024, 07:15:41 PM
I'm old enough to remember when a bunch of redditors took down Melvin Capital.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 06, 2024, 07:18:26 PM
Cyber Ninjas on line 1.
Yup, it's an ugly and difficult world these guys live in, where their business model is to profit by ruining billionaires. They fight to win and relish the battle.
Ackman is up for the fight; it is what he does. Is the faculty lounge at MIT and the board of Trustees also up for it? Is this what they signed up for? It is what Ackman signed up for.
---
BTW, Gabe Plotkin of Melvin Capital closed their hedge funds in disgrace and last year paid Michael Jordan $3 billion for the Charlotte Hornets.
And in the end, nearly every cyber ninja wound up losing on Gamestop.
So who really lost in this episode?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 07, 2024, 09:45:06 AM
Yup, it's an ugly and difficult world these guys live in, where their business model is to profit by ruining billionaires. They fight to win and relish the battle.
I now understand why your market predictions are so woefully wrong. Your (mis)understanding of how the market works is formed by too many viewings of Wall Street and Billions.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 07, 2024, 10:11:08 AM
I now understand why your market predictions are so woefully wrong. Your (mis)understanding of how the market works is formed by too many viewings of Wall Street and Billions.
Who do you think Bobby Axelrod is modeled after?
(Einhorn is in the same business and best friends with Ackman)
Damien Lewis, the actor playing Axelrod, said that he read hedge fund manager David Einhorn's book, "Fooling Some of the People All of the Time," to prepare for the role. And it is merely a coincidence that Bobby Axelrod shares the same initials as activist investor and Pershing Square Capital founder Bill Ackman.
---
Billions dramatizes life on Wall Street–but not by much. Axe, with his cold eyes and algorithmic mind, is a doppelgänger for a number of hedge-fund wizards. Axe's demeanor also calls to mind Bill Ackman, a titan who actually keeps an antique ejector seat in his offices as a disciplinary message to business partners.
---
And some Wall Streeters are convinced Bobby Axelrod is based on Bill Ackman. "They say, 'Ackman, Axelrod. They have the same initials.' But Bobby Axelrod isn't based on any real person," Lewis said.
--------------
Randomly speaking of billionaire hedge fund managers ... I might add that Bucks owner Marc Lasry was used as a model for KGB in the movie "Rounders." Lasry is a legendary poker player and travels the world for million-dollar table stakes.
And speaking of poker, David Einhorn (from Milwaukee and a big fan of MU basketball) has made the WSOP final table twice.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 07, 2024, 11:07:55 AM
Who do you think Bobby Axelrod is modeled after?
Not Bill Ackman.
If the Civil War could have been avoided through negotiation, so could this conflict.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 06, 2024, 07:50:14 PM
Pure fiction, aina?
What do we call a person who supports those who attempted to overthrow the US government?
While Not a Serious Person continues to fight a culture war, over 10 children a day are losing either 1 or more limbs a day in Gaza.
Quote from: forgetful on January 07, 2024, 11:46:30 AM
While Not a Serious Person continues to fight a culture war, over 10 children a day are losing either 1 or more limbs a day in Gaza.
Bill Ackman didn't tweet about it so Heisey has no idea what to think about that.
Wall Street Journal reports that Tesla and SpaceX leaders are concerned about Musk's use of LSD, cocaine, ecstasy, mushrooms and ketamine.
https://www.wsj.com/business/elon-musk-illegal-drugs-e826a9e1?st=fq2cfduw7xa05rh&mod=djemwhatsnews
Not sure if Musk's drug use contributes to the antisemitic behavior that doesn't bother Douchey and Doc at all.
Quote from: MU82 on January 07, 2024, 12:37:13 PM
Wall Street Journal reports that Tesla and SpaceX leaders are concerned about Musk's use of LSD, cocaine, ecstasy, mushrooms and ketamine.
https://www.wsj.com/business/elon-musk-illegal-drugs-e826a9e1?st=fq2cfduw7xa05rh&mod=djemwhatsnews
Not sure if Musk's drug use contributes to the antisemitic behavior that doesn't bother Douchey and Doc at all.
Witchhunt.
Musk being cancelled for his opposition to the establishment
Just going to turn Rico and Newsdreams into fans.
Quote from: tower912 on January 07, 2024, 01:05:15 PM
Just going to turn Rico and Newsdreams into fans.
No, unlike some, I denounce all anti-semitism
You gotta be a douche to craft the following statement:
Yesterday evening, shortly after I posted that we were launching a plagiarism review of all current MIT faculty, President Kornbluth, members of MIT's administration, and its board, I am sure that an audible collective gasp could be heard around the campus.
The good news is I think that title recently became available here on scoop.
On another note, may I remind you that Harvard had the integrity to do the right thing. Gay plagiarized some content, but she is gone, right? Okay, now that we have established Harvard did the right thing, let's look around and see if other bad actors are being pressured to lose their jobs or leave the public stage. The same people who went after Harvard should be cleaning their own house right?
Can I get an amen?
Quote from: forgetful on January 07, 2024, 11:46:30 AM
While Not a Serious Person continues to fight a culture war, over 10 children a day are losing either 1 or more limbs a day in Gaza.
How many are male, 15 to 19, carrying a gun?
Israel says Hamas deployed more than 170 children to the front lines while terrorists 'hide in shelters'
https://nypost.com/2024/01/03/news/israel-says-hamas-recruits-children-to-the-frontlines-to-deliver-messages-and-ammunition/
When an IDF soldier is facing this, what do you suggest they do?
(https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/2024-say-reveals-evidence-showing-74362999.jpg?resize=1024,765&quality=75&strip=all)
Exclusive: Hamas, Islamic Jihad accused of using child soldiers in war against Israel
IDF recently found a stash of documents, a video and stills showing children working with terrorists
https://www.foxnews.com/world/exclusive-hamas-islamic-jihad-accused-using-child-soldiers-war-against-israel
Quote from: MU82 on January 07, 2024, 12:37:13 PM
Wall Street Journal reports that Tesla and SpaceX leaders are concerned about Musk's use of LSD, cocaine, ecstasy, mushrooms and ketamine.
https://www.wsj.com/business/elon-musk-illegal-drugs-e826a9e1?st=fq2cfduw7xa05rh&mod=djemwhatsnews
Not sure if Musk's drug use contributes to the antisemitic behavior that doesn't bother Douchey and Doc at all.
Holy crap, a tech bro from Silicon Valley uses drugs!!!!
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 07, 2024, 02:15:17 PM
Holy crap, a tech bro from Silicon Valley uses drugs!!!!
Are they all anti-semites like Musk, too?
Quote from: SoCalEagle on January 07, 2024, 02:03:31 PM
You gotta be a douche to craft the following statement:
Yesterday evening, shortly after I posted that we were launching a plagiarism review of all current MIT faculty, President Kornbluth, members of MIT's administration, and its board, I am sure that an audible collective gasp could be heard around the campus.
The good news is I think that title recently became available here on scoop.
On another note, may I remind you that Harvard had the integrity to do the right thing. Gay plagiarized some content, but she is gone, right? Okay, now that we have established Harvard did the right thing, let's look around and see if other bad actors are being pressured to lose their jobs or leave the public stage. The same people who went after Harvard should be cleaning their own house right?
Can I get an amen?
Raise your hand if you had "Ackman playing the victim" on your Culture War Bingo card.
And his sudden concern with what's "fair" is ... interesting?
Bill Ackman's Wife Jane Doe Admits to Plagiarism
No one reads any further than the headline. Who reads articles these days anyway?
It is now the number one trending item on X with 35,600 posts versus number two which is the Princess of Wales with 3,174 posts.
Does this seem like fair journalism to you?
Does this seem like a fair way to determine whether a professor plagiarized in her dissertation 15 years ago?
Does this seem like a fair way to destroy the reputation of one of the most talented and famous designer/scientists in the world, even if she is married to billionaire?https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1744084180785332344
Quote from: Pakuni on January 07, 2024, 02:20:51 PM
Raise your hand if you had "Ackman playing the victim" on your Culture War Bingo card.
And his sudden concern with what's "fair" is ... interesting?
Bill Ackman's Wife Jane Doe Admits to Plagiarism
No one reads any further than the headline. Who reads articles these days anyway?
It is now the number one trending item on X with 35,600 posts versus number two which is the Princess of Wales with 3,174 posts.
Does this seem like fair journalism to you?
Does this seem like a fair way to determine whether a professor plagiarized in her dissertation 15 years ago?
Does this seem like a fair way to destroy the reputation of one of the most talented and famous designer/scientists in the world, even if she is married to billionaire?
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1744084180785332344
Huh
Quote from: Pakuni on January 07, 2024, 02:20:51 PM
Raise your hand if you had "Ackman playing the victim" on your Culture War Bingo card.
And his sudden concern with what's "fair" is ... interesting?
Bill Ackman's Wife Jane Doe Admits to Plagiarism
No one reads any further than the headline. Who reads articles these days anyway?
It is now the number one trending item on X with 35,600 posts versus number two which is the Princess of Wales with 3,174 posts.
Does this seem like fair journalism to you?
Does this seem like a fair way to determine whether a professor plagiarized in her dissertation 15 years ago?
Does this seem like a fair way to destroy the reputation of one of the most talented and famous designer/scientists in the world, even if she is married to billionaire?
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1744084180785332344
I think the fact that she admitted to committing plagiarism is a pretty fair way to ascertain whether a professor committed plagiarism.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 07, 2024, 02:24:02 PM
Huh
It's weird, because he was so fair to those students he publicly trashed before finding out whether they had signed onto the infamous anti-Israel letter.
It's almost like he thinks there should be different rules for people like him.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 07, 2024, 02:20:18 PM
Are they all anti-semites like Musk, too?
Shh! We don't talk about antisemites unless they're "western progressives"! All other antisemites (or supporters of antisemites) don't count.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 07, 2024, 02:39:36 PM
It's weird, because he was so fair to those students he publicly trashed before finding out whether they had signed onto the infamous anti-Israel letter.
It's almost like he thinks there should be different rules for people like him.
It's something. When he has a bunch of dimwits following him and worshipping him, sometimes he forgets about getting too close to the sun. At least he'll have the dimwits
Israel was hit with the biggest pogrom since WW2.
As noted before
On October 6, they were Israeli
On October 8, they are Jewish
Israel has responded with a unity government, vowing "never again." Poll after poll says the country is now unified in a way that was considered inconceivable before October 7—in fact, the entire Jewish Diaspora is unified in a way not seen in 75 years.
Israel is not stopping until the neighbors cannot kill Jews again.
Why is this so hard to understand?
----
The Washington Post
January 7,2023
Israel's talk of expanding war to Lebanon alarms U.S.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-s-talk-of-expanding-war-to-lebanon-alarms-us/ar-AA1mzBk3
President Biden has dispatched his top aides to the Middle East with a critical objective: Prevent a full-blown war from erupting between Israel and the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.
Israel has made clear it views as untenable the regular exchange of fire between its forces and Hezbollah along the border and may soon launch a major military operation in Lebanon.
"We prefer the path of an agreed-upon diplomatic settlement," Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Friday, "but we are getting close to the point where the hourglass will turn over."
U.S. officials are concerned that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu may see an expanded fight in Lebanon as key to his political survival amid domestic criticism of his government's failure to prevent Hamas's Oct. 7 attack, which killed an estimated 1,200 people and resulted in some 240 hostages being taken to Gaza.
Officials fear that a full-scale conflict between Israel and Lebanon would surpass the bloodshed of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon war on account of Hezbollah's substantially larger arsenal of long-range and precision weaponry. "The number of casualties in Lebanon could be anywhere from 300,000 to 500,000 and entail a massive evacuation of all of northern Israel," said Bilal Saab, a Lebanon expert at the Middle East Institute, a Washington think tank.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 07, 2024, 06:52:45 PM
Israel was hit with the biggest pogrom since WW2.
As noted before
On October 6, they were Israeli
On October 8, they are Jewish
Israel has responded with a unity government, vowing "never again." Poll after poll says the country is now unified in a way that was considered inconceivable before October 7—in fact, the entire Jewish Diaspora is unified in a way not seen in 75 years.
Israel is not stopping until the neighbors cannot kill Jews again.
Why is this so hard to understand?
----
The Washington Post
January 7,2023
Israel's talk of expanding war to Lebanon alarms U.S.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-s-talk-of-expanding-war-to-lebanon-alarms-us/ar-AA1mzBk3
President Biden has dispatched his top aides to the Middle East with a critical objective: Prevent a full-blown war from erupting between Israel and the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.
Israel has made clear it views as untenable the regular exchange of fire between its forces and Hezbollah along the border and may soon launch a major military operation in Lebanon.
"We prefer the path of an agreed-upon diplomatic settlement," Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Friday, "but we are getting close to the point where the hourglass will turn over."
U.S. officials are concerned that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu may see an expanded fight in Lebanon as key to his political survival amid domestic criticism of his government's failure to prevent Hamas's Oct. 7 attack, which killed an estimated 1,200 people and resulted in some 240 hostages being taken to Gaza.
Officials fear that a full-scale conflict between Israel and Lebanon would surpass the bloodshed of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon war on account of Hezbollah's substantially larger arsenal of long-range and precision weaponry. "The number of casualties in Lebanon could be anywhere from 300,000 to 500,000 and entail a massive evacuation of all of northern Israel," said Bilal Saab, a Lebanon expert at the Middle East Institute, a Washington think tank.
Everyone is aware that Israel is not stopping.
But in the process, Settlers are committing their own Pogroms (the Israeli government has admitted to this). They have major leaders advocating for genocide.
What part of that is not ok do you not understand?
Quote from: forgetful on January 07, 2024, 09:01:33 PM
Everyone is aware that Israel is not stopping.
But in the process, Settlers are committing their own Pogroms (the Israeli government has admitted to this). They have major leaders advocating for genocide.
What part of that is not ok do you not understand?
The occupied territory (Judea and Sumra) is the largest land parcel in the world, with no country claiming ownership. It used to be part of Jordan until 1967 when they attacked Israel and lost it (this is what happens when you lose a war; you don't get it back). Since then, Jordan has reannounced it. Israel does not claim it as part of their country (like they do with the Golan Heights), but they do offer some security and control in this area.
Your inflammatory statement that the settlers are committing crimes assumes established law by an established government that rules over these lands. There is not, and the UN has no authority, any more than the UN can tell Milwaukee how to run the city.
So, why are the settlers committing crimes? They have every right to that land as the Palestinians. Again, no government presides over it.
Maybe if the Palestinians stop gunning down pregnant women and bus stops in this land, they can agree about who government and laws to preside over it, and the violence can stop.
Until then, I see Jews committed to "never again" protecting themselves from violent terrorists.
Things have changed since October 7; you had a majority opinion before October 7 among Israelis, and now it is a minority opinion among Jews.
Survey shows substantial support for renewal of Jewish settlement in Gaza after war
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/survey-shows-substantial-support-for-renewal-of-jewish-settlement-in-gaza-after-war/
Settlers are now considered the front line for the IDF, so "never again" becomes a reality.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 07, 2024, 10:58:17 PM
So, why are the settlers committing crimes? They have every right to that land as the Palestinians. Again, no government presides over it.
Wow. So your claim is that the Palestinian National Authority, an entity legally recognized by Israel, has no legal authority over those lands. So therefore settlers have a right to simply acquire them by force.
That is absolute immoral nonsense.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 06, 2024, 03:04:02 PM
Who's in?
@BillAckman
We are going to need help with our review of @MIT faculty and affiliates.
Please contact Fran McGill at mcgill@persq.com if your company has the capabilities to assist us.
"I don't care about the culture war"
Man, I haven't seen someone dick ride someone this hard in some time. And I watch quite a few KC Chiefs games.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 06, 2024, 06:40:42 PM
Remember that Ackman is a short seller and activist investor. This effectively means his job is to take companies away from their billionaire owners. It is brutal and ugly business (and very lucrative if you do it well, like he does).
In other words, he lives in a world of conflict and chaos. That is what Pershing Square (his company) does for a living.
So now that it is "game on," Ackman has the mentality and the resources to do exactly what he says. This is not bluster when it comes from him. He lives for this.
Are we all happy that Pandora's box has been opened?
This is a long tweet; here is an excerpt.
---
(my highlights)
https://twitter.com/BillAckman/status/1743792224020619450
Bill Ackman
@BillAckman
Last night, no one at @MIT had a good night's sleep.
Yesterday evening, shortly after I posted that we were launching a plagiarism review of all current MIT faculty, President Kornbluth, members of MIT's administration, and its board, I am sure that an audible collective gasp could be heard around the campus.
Why? Well, every faculty member knows that once their work is targeted by AI, they will be outed. No body of written work in academia can survive the power of AI searching for missing quotation marks, failures to paraphrase appropriately, and/or the failure to properly credit the work of others.
But it wasn't just the MIT faculty that did not sleep last night. The @Harvard faculty, its governing board members, and its administrative leadership did not sleep either. Because why would we stop at MIT?
Don't we have to do a deep dive into academic integrity at Harvard as well?
What about Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Penn, Dartmouth? You get the point.
While we are going to do a detailed review of plagiarism at MIT, we are not going to be the only ones who do so.
Every college and university in the world is going to have to do the same for themselves. They will do so because they will need to validate all plagiarism accusations, or someone else will do it for them.
(https://i.imgflip.com/8bndl6.jpg)
Quote from: Pakuni on January 07, 2024, 10:11:08 AM
I now understand why your market predictions are so woefully wrong. Your (mis)understanding of how the market works is formed by too many viewings of Wall Street and Billions.
No, he's just mentally ill. No reason to go further than that.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 07, 2024, 02:42:40 PM
It's something. When he has a bunch of dimwits following him and worshipping him, sometimes he forgets about getting too close to the sun. At least he'll have the dimwits
Musk or Ackman? ;D
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 07, 2024, 11:07:55 AM
Randomly speaking of billionaire hedge fund managers ... I might add that Bucks owner Marc Lasry was used as a model for KGB in the movie "Rounders." Lasry is a legendary poker player and travels the world for million-dollar table stakes.
lol wut?! According to whom?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 08, 2024, 04:49:10 AM
Wow. So your claim is that the Palestinian National Authority, an entity legally recognized by Israel, has no legal authority over those lands. So therefore settlers have a right to simply acquire them by force.
That is absolute immoral nonsense.
The nature of this response shows you do not understand the situation in Judea and Sumera (or the West Bank)
It was divided it up three ways according to the Olso accords.
Area A is Palestinian Natinal Authority controlled
Area B is controlled by both
Area C is Israeli controlled
So when Settlers and Palestinians fight in Area B, what law is broken? When Settlers shoot at Palestinians in Area C, what laws were broken?
All terrorist attacks by Palestinians are in Areas B and C because Jews are not allowed in Area A, they will be shot and killed on sight.
I know your answer, Palestinians are oppressed, Jews are the oppressors.
If only the Jews would shut up and die, then stability can return to the region, right?
(https://www.anera.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/4096px-Control_status_of_the_West_Bank_as_per_the_Oslo_Accords-EDITED.jpg)
I am fully aware of the situation in the West Bank. That is why I am absolutely astounded by your statement because it is wrong. You are stating that settlers acquiring a Palestinian's property is OK because of the governance structure of the area, and that is simply not accurate.
Israeli's are only allowed to settle on state owned land authorized for settlement. But that's not the only thing happening. Israeli's are settling on land not authorized for settlement. Oftentimes taking it by force. This is in violation of not only their agreement with the PNA, but Israeli law.
But Israel is not enforcing its own laws in that respect. In fact, it has often retroactively authorized the settlements on these lands - suddenly turning what was an illegal activity into something legal.
Maybe do a little research instead of copying and pasting.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 08, 2024, 08:03:17 AM
"I don't care about the culture war"
Man, I haven't seen someone dick ride someone this hard in some time. And I watch quite a few KC Chiefs games.
Ackman complaining about people not reading past the headline was a subtweet of Heisey
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 08, 2024, 10:31:33 AM
The nature of this response shows you do not understand the situation in Judea and Sumera (or the West Bank)
It was divided it up three ways according to the Olso accords.
Area A is Palestinian Natinal Authority controlled
Area B is controlled by both
Area C is Israeli controlled
So when Settlers and Palestinians fight in Area B, what law is broken? When Settlers shoot at Palestinians in Area C, what laws were broken?
All terrorist attacks by Palestinians are in Areas B and C because Jews are not allowed in Area A, they will be shot and killed on sight.
I know your answer, Palestinians are oppressed, Jews are the oppressors.
If only the Jews would shut up and die, then stability can return to the region, right?
In a long series of posts by you that make no sense, this may be one of your least informed. At this point, you are either an expert troll, or you lack any common sense, or knowledge on these topics.
The only part of this that is accurate is that the West Bank is separated into 3 zones, A, B and C.
I'm going back to not uncovering your posts and leaving them on ignore, because there is no attempt at honest discussion from you.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 08, 2024, 11:03:07 AM
I am fully aware of the situation in the West Bank. That is why I am absolutely astounded by your statement because it is wrong. You are stating that settlers acquiring a Palestinian's property is OK because of the governance structure of the area, and that is simply not accurate.
Israeli's are only allowed to settle on state owned land authorized for settlement. But that's not the only thing happening. Israeli's are settling on land not authorized for settlement. Oftentimes taking it by force. This is in violation of not only their agreement with the PNA, but Israeli law.
But Israel is not enforcing its own laws in that respect. In fact, it has often retroactively authorized the settlements on these lands - suddenly turning what was an illegal activity into something legal.
Maybe do a little research instead of copying and pasting.
And why don't you point out terrorist attacks are never in Area A (controlled by the PNA)?
Why? Because the Palestinians have ethnically cleansed the area and intend to keep it that way. (so, sorry if the ignorant calls that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza are just signals of poster ignorance as to where and who is doing the cleansing.)
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-699262
That is unless you are Israeli or an Israeli passport holder, in which case, it is forbidden to enter Ramallah under any circumstances.
The reason is that Ramallah is in Area A, and as such it is illegal for Israelis to enter. Area A includes eight Palestinian cities, each under the full control of the Palestinian Authority: Nablus, Jenin, Tulkarm, Kalkilya, Ramallah, Bethlehem, Jericho and 80 percent of Hebron.
"Israelis are banned from entering Palestinian Authority territories... entering endangers their lives and endangers the security forces who are called to rescue them."----
Settler disputes are in Area B. See the map, these are very small areas.
I suggest you find a place for the Palestinians if you are worried about them. I would suggest the country the British created for them a hundred years ago ... Jordan.
Because I'm worried about more Jews getting killed.
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 08, 2024, 05:00:13 PM
And why don't you point out terrorist attacks are never in Area A (controlled by the PNA)?
Why? Because the Palestinians have ethnically cleansed the area and intend to keep it that way. (so, sorry if the ignorant calls that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza are just signals of poster ignorance as to where and who is doing the cleansing.)
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-699262
That is unless you are Israeli or an Israeli passport holder, in which case, it is forbidden to enter Ramallah under any circumstances.
The reason is that Ramallah is in Area A, and as such it is illegal for Israelis to enter. Area A includes eight Palestinian cities, each under the full control of the Palestinian Authority: Nablus, Jenin, Tulkarm, Kalkilya, Ramallah, Bethlehem, Jericho and 80 percent of Hebron.
"Israelis are banned from entering Palestinian Authority territories... entering endangers their lives and endangers the security forces who are called to rescue them."
1. What you conveniently fail to mention is that it's the Israeli government, not the PA, that has declared it illegal for Israelis to enter Ramallah. Claiming that this is evidence of ethnic cleansing by Palestinians is obviously dishonest.
2. What you also conveniently fail to mention is that, according to the link you shared, Israelis regularly visit Ramallah nonetheless, without being killed.
3. Could you cite some examples of Israeli visitors being kidnapped in Ramallah and needing rescue by the IDF, as this article suggests is a certain outcome? Genuinely curious.
Posts something wrong...shifts goalposts...posts something wrong again.
Just a typical Heisey day here on Scoop.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 08, 2024, 05:39:09 PM
1. What you conveniently fail to mention is that it's the Israeli government, not the PA, that has declared it illegal for Israelis to enter Ramallah. Claiming that this is evidence of ethnic cleansing by Palestinians is obviously dishonest.
2. What you also conveniently fail to mention is that, according to the link you shared, Israelis regularly visit Ramallah nonetheless, without being killed.
3. Could you cite some examples of Israeli visitors being kidnapped in Ramallah and needing rescue by the IDF, as this article suggests is a certain outcome? Genuinely curious.
Careful, asking for sources is frowned upon.
You're better to just make a claim and act all indignant when someone asks for evidence
Unsurprisingly, the antisemitic druggie Musk is blaming the media - in this case the radical left-wing rag that is the Wall Street Journal - for reporting his long history of drug use.
Meanwhile, on his money-bleeding, Jew-hater-filled social media site, the antisemite is accusing Mark Cuban of being racist.
Scoop's self-professed antisemite police? Crickets.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 08, 2024, 08:03:17 AM
"I don't care about the culture war"
Man, I haven't seen someone dick ride someone this hard in some time. And I watch quite a few KC Chiefs games.
Bravo to Ackman for pushing back. Not many in this country are willing to stick their dick out for what's right and just, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 08, 2024, 08:10:47 PM
Not many in this country are willing to stick their dick out for what's right and just, hey?
You're right. Some folks even support violent seditionists who attack the United States, injuring 100+ police officers in the process. Hard to believe, I know.
Name one person who has been charged with sedition
I don't condone what happened but the rhetoric is hyperbolic. No single charge for sedition or insurrection has been made but that doesn't stop some from parroting the tale.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 08, 2024, 10:44:01 PM
Name one person who has been charged with sedition
I don't condone what happened but the rhetoric is hyperbolic. No single charge for sedition or insurrection has been made but that doesn't stop some from parroting the tale.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/jury-reaches-verdict-second-jan-6-trial-oath-keepers-facing-sedition-charges-2023-01-23/
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 08, 2024, 10:44:01 PM
Name one person who has been charged with sedition
I don't condone what happened but the rhetoric is hyperbolic. No single charge for sedition or insurrection has been made but that doesn't stop some from parroting the tale.
In all, 14 members of the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys have been convicted or pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy, a charge that carries a sentence of up to 20 years in prison.https://www.voanews.com/a/jury-convicts-proud-boys-members-of-seditious-conspiracy-in-us-capitol-attack/7078870.html
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 08, 2024, 10:44:01 PM
Name one person who has been charged with sedition
I don't condone what happened but the rhetoric is hyperbolic. No single charge for sedition or insurrection has been made but that doesn't stop some from parroting the tale.
I can't name just one. I can name many.
Such as these 4 Oath Keepers - charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for seditious conspiracy ...
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-additional-oath-keepers-sentenced-seditious-conspiracy-related-us-capitol-breach#:~:text=Four%20Additional%20Oath%20Keepers%20Sentenced%20for%20Seditious%20Conspiracy%20Related%20to%20U.S.%20Capitol%20Breach,-Friday%2C%20June%202&text=Four%20members%20of%20the%20Oath,6%2C%202021.
And these 4 Proud Boys - also charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for seditious conspiracy ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/04/us/politics/jan-6-proud-boys-sedition.html
Seditionists one and all. There's a good start for you. I invite you to do some googling because there are plenty more.
Anyway, I'm seriously glad to hear that you (unlike our dentists) don't condone what happened on one of the darkest days in American history - a day that featured seditionists staging a violent coup attempt against America at the behest of the then-president.
Oh, and that "law and order" president is vowing to set these seditionists free.
Much tado 'bout nothin', aina?
https://www.axios.com/2024/01/08/israel-hamas-gaza-hostages-blinken-palestinians (https://www.axios.com/2024/01/08/israel-hamas-gaza-hostages-blinken-palestinians)
Israel continuing to flat out admit to war crimes. In this case admitting to ethnic cleansing (forced displacement), by admitting they are refusing to allow Gazans to return to North Gaza so they can use that as a bargaining chip.
You'd think, when they are already facing war crimes charges, that they would refrain from publicly admitting to war crimes.
They know the US will back them up
With Trump busy in court - his choice; he didn't need to attend - he called on Jew-hater Marjorie Taylor Greene to campaign for him in Iowa.
But no, he's not an antisemite; he just solicits antisemites' support, dines with them, calls them great friends, lauds them for being very smart, etc.
"He loves hanging out with his racist friends and laughing at their racist jokes, but he doesn't use the n-word publicly so he's not a racist."
Quote from: forgetful on January 09, 2024, 10:28:12 AM
https://www.axios.com/2024/01/08/israel-hamas-gaza-hostages-blinken-palestinians (https://www.axios.com/2024/01/08/israel-hamas-gaza-hostages-blinken-palestinians)
Israel continuing to flat out admit to war crimes. In this case admitting to ethnic cleansing (forced displacement), by admitting they are refusing to allow Gazans to return to North Gaza so they can use that as a bargaining chip.
You'd think, when they are already facing war crimes charges, that they would refrain from publicly admitting to war crimes.
None of this is a war crime.
why are you desperate to get them in the position to start killing Jews again?
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 09, 2024, 03:24:21 PM
None of this is a war crime.
Narrator voice: "It's a war crime."
In Article 49, the Fourth Geneva Convention, adopted on 12 August 1949, specifically forbade forced displacement
"Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."
The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court defines forced displacement as a crime within the jurisdiction of the court:
"Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means forced displacement of the people concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law."
Quote from: Not A Serious Person on January 09, 2024, 03:24:21 PM
None of this is a war crime.
why are you desperate to get them in the position to start killing Jews again?
Ah yes. Hyperbole. Another tool used by those who don't have the ability to debate honestly.
Pretty sure the BOTUS is antisemitic, aina?
After the Hamas massacres of Oct. 7, the Israeli government also posited three war aims: uproot the Hamas military structure from Gaza; maintain Israeli security control over the territory; and prevent the Palestinian Authority (PA) from taking control of Gaza in a bid for a "two state solution" favored by Washington.
President Biden has been rhetorically very good on the first goal.
But rather than offering Israel the same unconditional and open-ended support Ukraine received, the U.S., with its European allies and international organizations including UNRWA, has been increasingly determined to force Israel to adopt American — rather than Israeli — aims on the other two points.
The president himself noted, "I also advised Israelis not to let their pain and anger mislead them into making mistakes we ourselves have made in the past."
The U.S. has not found itself under attack in the homeland since 2001, and – happily – never had more than 1,200 of our citizens tortured, raped, burned alive and beheaded in their own homes one night, or had hundreds – including babies – kidnapped to hostile territory from those homes. So, it is unclear which American mistakes he believes Israel might make without U.S. "advice."
While the IDF operation was just getting started, Secretary of State Blinken told a Senate hearing that, after Israel succeeded in ousting Hamas, "What would make the most sense would be for an effective and revitalized Palestinian Authority to have governance and ultimately security responsibility for Gaza."
It is well-known that the PA uses tax revenues received through the Israeli government for salaries and payments to terrorists, including Hamas terrorists. Israel announced it would withhold the amount of the payments.
The PA replied it would receive all of the money — or accept none. Washington has demanded that Israel turn over the money.
In addition, U.S. officials encouraged Israel to use American tactics from Iraq, targeting Hamas leaders "using small teams of commandos, combined with precision strikes from drones and manned aircraft."
It should be noted that only a few months ago, the U.S. asked for "clarifications" over Israel's use of a drones to target terrorists for fear of a "potential loosening of rules of engagement in an area that needs to see de-escalation." During the Obama administration, there were 542 drone strikes, killing nearly 4,000 people.
Then, there was the "humanitarian-pause-that-is-not-a-ceasefire," although stopping military operations is the literal definition of a ceasefire. Hamas used the time to reorganize its forces and send messages to its operatives, thus increasing Israeli casualties when Hamas broke the ceasefire.
The U.S. parked a battleship off the coast of Lebanon while warning Israel not to attack Hezbollah. Presumably, Israel was to think that if Hezbollah entered the war, the U.S. would retaliate on Israel's behalf.
If it was meant to be a serious warning to Hezbollah, it failed. Hezbollah has maintained steady, if limited, rocket fire against Israeli civilians in the north.
The U.S. rejected Israel's request for Apache helicopters.
And in the most immediately horrific decision, the U.S. has refused to press Egypt to temporarily take Palestinian refugees into Sinai where they could receive food and medical care in safety. Tens of thousands of Palestinians are now trapped in southern Gaza and Israel will be forced to fight around them and their international organizational jailers.
The U.S. is providing Kiev with arms, money, and military carte blanche, with no timeline for success in pursuit of war aims that appear to be receding. The U.S. is providing Israel with rhetorical support, a lot of nagging and unsolicited "advice," and military restrictions
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2024, 06:06:42 PM
But rather than offering Israel the same unconditional and open-ended support Ukraine received, the U.S., with its European allies and international organizations including UNRWA, has been increasingly determined to force Israel to adopt American — rather than Israeli — aims on the other two points.
Summary:
Give us your weapons and your money, but don't you dare tell us not to kill civilians with them.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2024, 06:06:42 PM
Pretty sure the BOTUS is antisemitic, aina?
After the Hamas massacres of Oct. 7, the Israeli government also posited three war aims: uproot the Hamas military structure from Gaza; maintain Israeli security control over the territory; and prevent the Palestinian Authority (PA) from taking control of Gaza in a bid for a "two state solution" favored by Washington.
President Biden has been rhetorically very good on the first goal.
But rather than offering Israel the same unconditional and open-ended support Ukraine received, the U.S., with its European allies and international organizations including UNRWA, has been increasingly determined to force Israel to adopt American — rather than Israeli — aims on the other two points.
The president himself noted, "I also advised Israelis not to let their pain and anger mislead them into making mistakes we ourselves have made in the past."
The U.S. has not found itself under attack in the homeland since 2001, and – happily – never had more than 1,200 of our citizens tortured, raped, burned alive and beheaded in their own homes one night, or had hundreds – including babies – kidnapped to hostile territory from those homes. So, it is unclear which American mistakes he believes Israel might make without U.S. "advice."
While the IDF operation was just getting started, Secretary of State Blinken told a Senate hearing that, after Israel succeeded in ousting Hamas, "What would make the most sense would be for an effective and revitalized Palestinian Authority to have governance and ultimately security responsibility for Gaza."
It is well-known that the PA uses tax revenues received through the Israeli government for salaries and payments to terrorists, including Hamas terrorists. Israel announced it would withhold the amount of the payments.
The PA replied it would receive all of the money — or accept none. Washington has demanded that Israel turn over the money.
In addition, U.S. officials encouraged Israel to use American tactics from Iraq, targeting Hamas leaders "using small teams of commandos, combined with precision strikes from drones and manned aircraft."
It should be noted that only a few months ago, the U.S. asked for "clarifications" over Israel's use of a drones to target terrorists for fear of a "potential loosening of rules of engagement in an area that needs to see de-escalation." During the Obama administration, there were 542 drone strikes, killing nearly 4,000 people.
Then, there was the "humanitarian-pause-that-is-not-a-ceasefire," although stopping military operations is the literal definition of a ceasefire. Hamas used the time to reorganize its forces and send messages to its operatives, thus increasing Israeli casualties when Hamas broke the ceasefire.
The U.S. parked a battleship off the coast of Lebanon while warning Israel not to attack Hezbollah. Presumably, Israel was to think that if Hezbollah entered the war, the U.S. would retaliate on Israel's behalf.
If it was meant to be a serious warning to Hezbollah, it failed. Hezbollah has maintained steady, if limited, rocket fire against Israeli civilians in the north.
The U.S. rejected Israel's request for Apache helicopters.
And in the most immediately horrific decision, the U.S. has refused to press Egypt to temporarily take Palestinian refugees into Sinai where they could receive food and medical care in safety. Tens of thousands of Palestinians are now trapped in southern Gaza and Israel will be forced to fight around them and their international organizational jailers.
The U.S. is providing Kiev with arms, money, and military carte blanche, with no timeline for success in pursuit of war aims that appear to be receding. The U.S. is providing Israel with rhetorical support, a lot of nagging and unsolicited "advice," and military restrictions
Pretty sure this qualifies as plagiarism.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 09, 2024, 06:49:33 PM
Pretty sure this qualifies as plagiarism.
Where's Bill Ackman when we need him?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 09, 2024, 07:07:12 PM
Where's Bill Ackman when we need him?
Drinking Caymus with Douchey and plotting which African American female in a position of power to take down next.
Last time I checked Sally Kornbluth was caucasian, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2024, 07:47:08 PM
Last time I checked Sally Kornbluth was caucasian, hey?
How come Ackman's wife hasn't been fired yet? Protected class, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 09, 2024, 07:51:51 PM
How come Ackman's wife hasn't been fired yet? Protected class, hey?
...and tenure
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 09, 2024, 07:51:51 PM
How come Ackman's wife hasn't been fired yet? Protected class, hey?
To be fair. Claudine Gay wasn't fired. She resigned from being President, and is still a member of the faculty making over $900k per year.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2024, 07:47:08 PM
Last time I checked Sally Kornbluth was caucasian, hey?
And Jewish.
Ackman is an antisemite.
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2024, 06:06:42 PM
Pretty sure the BOTUS is antisemitic, aina?
After the Hamas massacres of Oct. 7, the Israeli government also posited three war aims: uproot the Hamas military structure from Gaza; maintain Israeli security control over the territory; and prevent the Palestinian Authority (PA) from taking control of Gaza in a bid for a "two state solution" favored by Washington.
President Biden has been rhetorically very good on the first goal.
But rather than offering Israel the same unconditional and open-ended support Ukraine received, the U.S., with its European allies and international organizations including UNRWA, has been increasingly determined to force Israel to adopt American — rather than Israeli — aims on the other two points.
The president himself noted, "I also advised Israelis not to let their pain and anger mislead them into making mistakes we ourselves have made in the past."
The U.S. has not found itself under attack in the homeland since 2001, and – happily – never had more than 1,200 of our citizens tortured, raped, burned alive and beheaded in their own homes one night, or had hundreds – including babies – kidnapped to hostile territory from those homes. So, it is unclear which American mistakes he believes Israel might make without U.S. "advice."
While the IDF operation was just getting started, Secretary of State Blinken told a Senate hearing that, after Israel succeeded in ousting Hamas, "What would make the most sense would be for an effective and revitalized Palestinian Authority to have governance and ultimately security responsibility for Gaza."
It is well-known that the PA uses tax revenues received through the Israeli government for salaries and payments to terrorists, including Hamas terrorists. Israel announced it would withhold the amount of the payments.
The PA replied it would receive all of the money — or accept none. Washington has demanded that Israel turn over the money.
In addition, U.S. officials encouraged Israel to use American tactics from Iraq, targeting Hamas leaders "using small teams of commandos, combined with precision strikes from drones and manned aircraft."
It should be noted that only a few months ago, the U.S. asked for "clarifications" over Israel's use of a drones to target terrorists for fear of a "potential loosening of rules of engagement in an area that needs to see de-escalation." During the Obama administration, there were 542 drone strikes, killing nearly 4,000 people.
Then, there was the "humanitarian-pause-that-is-not-a-ceasefire," although stopping military operations is the literal definition of a ceasefire. Hamas used the time to reorganize its forces and send messages to its operatives, thus increasing Israeli casualties when Hamas broke the ceasefire.
The U.S. parked a battleship off the coast of Lebanon while warning Israel not to attack Hezbollah. Presumably, Israel was to think that if Hezbollah entered the war, the U.S. would retaliate on Israel's behalf.
If it was meant to be a serious warning to Hezbollah, it failed. Hezbollah has maintained steady, if limited, rocket fire against Israeli civilians in the north.
The U.S. rejected Israel's request for Apache helicopters.
And in the most immediately horrific decision, the U.S. has refused to press Egypt to temporarily take Palestinian refugees into Sinai where they could receive food and medical care in safety. Tens of thousands of Palestinians are now trapped in southern Gaza and Israel will be forced to fight around them and their international organizational jailers.
The U.S. is providing Kiev with arms, money, and military carte blanche, with no timeline for success in pursuit of war aims that appear to be receding. The U.S. is providing Israel with rhetorical support, a lot of nagging and unsolicited "advice," and military restrictions
You support Jew-haters.
https://x.com/shashj/status/1744680088849813975?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
"Joe Biden wants Riyadh to resume talks over recognizing Israel in return for Israeli restraint in Gaza and the West Bank and pledges to accommodate Palestinian interests, including an eventual Palestinian state"
Smart. Glad Biden is trying to save Israel from themselves. The key is Iran.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2024, 03:45:46 AM
Much tado 'bout nothin', aina?
Lol if that was antifa breaking into the capitol building you'd be suggesting they should be executed.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 10, 2024, 07:26:41 AM
Lol if that was antifa breaking into the capitol building you'd be suggesting they should be executed.
To be fair, it was Antifa that perpetrated 1-6. Get out of your lame stream media bubble
The previous president is now publicly rooting for the economy to collapse, a situation that would severely hurt tens of millions of Americans.
Nothin' ta cee heer, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on January 10, 2024, 07:40:37 AM
The previous president is now publicly rooting for the economy to collapse, a situation that would severely hurt tens of millions of Americans.
Some scoopers rooting against it, too
Quote from: MU82 on January 10, 2024, 07:40:37 AM
The previous president is now publicly rooting for the economy to collapse, a situation that would severely hurt tens of millions of Americans.
Just what happens when the generation that never had any intention of planting trees they'd never sit under reaches the supernova stage in their life cycle.
Quote from: MU82 on January 10, 2024, 07:40:37 AM
The previous president is now publicly rooting for the economy to collapse, a situation that would severely hurt tens of millions of Americans.
You must also be concerned about the 12 million who have crossed our borders unvetted that surely will severely impact tens of millions of Americans.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 10, 2024, 11:27:26 AM
You must also be concerned about the 12 million who have crossed our borders unvetted that surely will severely impact tens of millions of Americans.
Nope. We need the workforce - it allows for the elderly to choose retirement and allows for children to stay in school.
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 10, 2024, 11:27:26 AM
You must also be concerned about the 12 million who have crossed our borders unvetted that surely will severely impact tens of millions of Americans.
12 million? Over what time frame?
Anyway, I am not overly concerned. Quickest solution to the labor force shortages we see now.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 10, 2024, 11:37:14 AM
12 million? Over what time frame?
Anyway, I am not overly concerned. Quickest solution to the labor force shortages we see now.
Problem is, these 12 million are all gang members
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 10, 2024, 11:44:55 AM
Problem is, these 12 million are all gang members
Loaded to the gills with fentanyl.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 10, 2024, 12:15:35 PM
Loaded to the gills with fentanyl.
We let fish cross the border???
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2024, 12:27:01 PM
We let fish cross the border???
Yes, they're usually murderers that carry a high disease rate!
https://www.wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/1738-reminder-to-not-ditch-a-fish-after-illegal-introductions-to-4-waterbodies-in-2023.html
QuoteIllegal fish species can prey on and outcompete other fish species, including sportfish, native fish and endangered fish species.
The new fish can introduce disease because they weren't properly tested before being dumped into that waterbody.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 10, 2024, 01:36:30 PM
Yes, they're usually murderers that carry a high disease rate!
https://www.wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/1738-reminder-to-not-ditch-a-fish-after-illegal-introductions-to-4-waterbodies-in-2023.html
Now this is a real problem. They better not be harming the Walleye population. There aren't enough of them to go around as it is.
Quote from: forgetful on January 10, 2024, 02:31:35 PM
Now this is a real problem. They better not be harming the Walleye population. There aren't enough of them to go around as it is.
Go to Idaho and kill all the marble eyes you please.
https://www.bigcountrynewsconnection.com/idaho/idaho-fish-game-asking-anglers-to-keep-all-walleye-caught-in-snake-river/article_412e6d7a-3b87-11ee-b454-633413053d87.html
Quote from: Pakuni on January 10, 2024, 02:41:20 PM
Go to Idaho and kill all the marble eyes you please.
https://www.bigcountrynewsconnection.com/idaho/idaho-fish-game-asking-anglers-to-keep-all-walleye-caught-in-snake-river/article_412e6d7a-3b87-11ee-b454-633413053d87.html
No wonder so many people want to move to Idaho.
Quote from: forgetful on January 10, 2024, 02:52:30 PM
No wonder so many people want to move to Idaho.
Why are they considered invasive? Maybe the other fish are just dumb
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 10, 2024, 03:02:03 PM
Why are they considered invasive? Maybe the other fish are just dumb
They're being bused into Boise by Tony Evers and Tim Walz.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 10, 2024, 03:11:05 PM
They're being bused into Boise by Tony Evers and Tim Walz.
Hope Idaho doesn't retaliate by sending any citizens. I've seen Yellowstone. Not good people
Quote from: WellsstreetWanderer on January 10, 2024, 11:27:26 AM
You must also be concerned about the 12 million who have crossed our borders unvetted that surely will severely impact tens of millions of Americans.
That's EXACTLY like actively cheering for the economy to collapse. Yes indeed.
Huh.
https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1745186120109846710?s=20
Prime Minister of Israel
@IsraeliPM
"I want to make a few points absolutely clear: Israel has no intention of permanently occupying Gaza or displacing its civilian population. Israel is fighting Hamas terrorists, not the Palestinian population, and we are doing so in full compliance with international law."
https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1745186125839204578?s=20
Prime Minister of Israel
@IsraeliPM
PM Netanyahu: "Our goal is to rid Gaza of Hamas terrorists and free our hostages. Once this is achieved Gaza can be demilitarized and deradicalized, thereby creating a possibility for a better future for Israel and Palestinians alike."
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 10, 2024, 07:36:57 AM
To be fair, it was Antifa that perpetrated 1-6. Get out of your lame stream media bubble
No question about it.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErGLUB7XMAcxbfg?format=jpg&name=medium
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 10, 2024, 03:58:30 PM
Huh.
https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1745186120109846710?s=20
Prime Minister of Israel
@IsraeliPM
"I want to make a few points absolutely clear: Israel has no intention of permanently occupying Gaza or displacing its civilian population. Israel is fighting Hamas terrorists, not the Palestinian population, and we are doing so in full compliance with international law."
https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1745186125839204578?s=20
Prime Minister of Israel
@IsraeliPM
PM Netanyahu: "Our goal is to rid Gaza of Hamas terrorists and free our hostages. Once this is achieved Gaza can be demilitarized and deradicalized, thereby creating a possibility for a better future for Israel and Palestinians alike."
Why have his ministers said differently?
I would guess they're a bit afraid of the outcome of the genocide trial at the ICJ
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 10, 2024, 03:58:30 PM
Huh.
https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1745186120109846710?s=20
Prime Minister of Israel
@IsraeliPM
"I want to make a few points absolutely clear: Israel has no intention of permanently occupying Gaza or displacing its civilian population. Israel is fighting Hamas terrorists, not the Palestinian population, and we are doing so in full compliance with international law."
https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1745186125839204578?s=20
Prime Minister of Israel
@IsraeliPM
PM Netanyahu: "Our goal is to rid Gaza of Hamas terrorists and free our hostages. Once this is achieved Gaza can be demilitarized and deradicalized, thereby creating a possibility for a better future for Israel and Palestinians alike."
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIRtJjZXsAE_LB3.jpg)
Biden just saw those Michigan poll numbers
Yeah, I was told that Israel "didn't care" what other people thought.
I thought the concept of palestinian people was a myth
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 10, 2024, 11:44:55 AM
Problem is, these 12 million are all gang members
Only 11.9 million are gang members. The remainder are Islamist jihadis
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2024, 04:12:52 PM
Why have his ministers said differently?
I would guess they're a bit afraid of the outcome of the genocide trial at the ICJ
Source?
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 10, 2024, 05:18:41 PM
Source?
Displace Palestinians: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-call-for-resettling-gazas-palestinians-building-settlements-in-strip/
Occupy Gaza:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-israel-should-fully-occupy-gaza-after-war-rebuild-settlements/
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on January 10, 2024, 03:40:07 PM
That's EXACTLY like actively cheering for the economy to collapse. Yes indeed.
Look, all the cultists have is misdirection or strawmen or dishonesty or whatever it takes to justify bending the knee to the cult leader. (BTW, the Criminal Defendant himself is now actually using "bend the knee" to describe what his followers do. He really thinks he can be king of America.)
Yesterday, WellsstreetWanderer challenged his fellow Scoopers to name one person charged with sedition in the 1/6/23 violent coup attempt. When presented with information about multiple people were charged, tried, convicted and sentenced ... crickets. Just go onto the next misdirection or strawman or whatever.
The blind willingness to bend the knee to a lifelong charlatan who doesn't give a rat's rump about democracy, the Constitution or America will be the subject of some fascinating documentaries a few years from now.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2024, 05:25:26 PM
Displace Palestinians: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-call-for-resettling-gazas-palestinians-building-settlements-in-strip/
Occupy Gaza:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/far-right-minister-israel-should-fully-occupy-gaza-after-war-rebuild-settlements/
What powers do these ministers have? The minister of Heritage already said nuking was an option.
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 10, 2024, 05:42:41 PM
What powers do these ministers have? The minister of Heritage already said nuking was an option.
Also the finance minister.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-repeats-call-palestinians-leave-gaza-2023-12-31/
As Nikki Haley pointed out in last night's debate, failed GOP presidential candidate Ron DeSantis has been campaigning with Israel-hating antisemite Thomas Massie.
DeSantis is Doc's guy. DeSantis also is another politician whose "antisemite-adjacent" choices don't bother Doc ... despite Doc's claim that he would never ever ever back those who support antisemitism.
"I abhor antisemites ... unless my favorite politicians accept and solicit support from antisemites. Then it's not so bad. But this Scooper, and that Scooper, and this college student, and that college student ... they're the real dangers to Jews in Israel and America."
Quote from: MU82 on January 11, 2024, 12:41:43 PM
As Nikki Haley pointed out in last night's debate, failed GOP presidential candidate Ron DeSantis has been campaigning with Israel-hating antisemite Thomas Massie.
DeSantis is Doc's guy. DeSantis also is another politician whose "antisemite-adjacent" choices don't bother Doc ... despite Doc's claim that he would never ever ever back those who support antisemitism.
"I abhor antisemites ... unless my favorite politicians accept and solicit support from antisemites. Then it's not so bad. But this Scooper, and that Scooper, and this college student, and that college student ... they're the real dangers to Jews in Israel and America."
Can't wait to see where Pudding Fingers is in 2 years. Probably going to be on Celebrity Apprentice
US bombing inside Yemen.
Smart
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 12, 2024, 07:34:05 AM
US bombing inside Yemen.
Smart
I'm sure it's not at all coincidental that Iran's proxies are escalating with the rest of the Arab world restraining themselves over Gaza.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 11, 2024, 02:20:39 PM
Can't wait to see where Pudding Fingers is in 2 years. Probably going to be on Celebrity Apprentice
While you're doing the important work of stalking Rocket on Scoop.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 12, 2024, 08:59:42 AM
While you're doing the important work of stalking Rocket on Scoop.
It's possible Pudding Fingers does the Masked Singer, so I could be wrong
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 12, 2024, 07:54:05 AM
I'm sure it's not at all coincidental that Iran's proxies are escalating with the rest of the Arab world restraining themselves over Gaza.
Right.
Houthis in Yemen are taking their action as long as Israel continues the genocide in Gaza.
So the US can put pressure on Israel to stand down. Or take escalatory action by bombing a sovereign nation.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 12, 2024, 09:07:03 AM
It's possible Pudding Fingers does the Masked Singer, so I could be wrong
Dancing with the Stars
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 12, 2024, 10:01:56 AM
Dancing with the Stars
Feels like his shoes would make that one tough.
Quote from: cheebs09 on January 12, 2024, 10:19:11 AM
Feels like his shoes would make that one tough.
He'd probably have to take the lifts out for that. Seems a little stiff for that
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c8rCFnRnVfU
He reminds me of Commandant Mauser from Police Academy
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 12, 2024, 09:07:03 AM
It's possible Pudding Fingers does the Masked Singer, so I could be wrong
He's too busy consorting with antisemites to pay attention to his state banning books - including dictionaries, encyclopedias and the bible.
I can see the last one, as it's filled with sex and violence, but dictionaries and encyclopedias?
Quote from: MU82 on January 12, 2024, 01:55:19 PM
He's too busy consorting with antisemites to pay attention to his state banning books - including dictionaries, encyclopedias and the bible.
I can see the last one, as it's filled with sex and violence, but dictionaries and encyclopedias?
He thrives with ignorance
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 12, 2024, 09:32:25 AM
Right.
Houthis in Yemen are taking their action as long as Israel continues the genocide in Gaza.
So the US can put pressure on Israel to stand down. Or take escalatory action by bombing a sovereign nation.
Interesting that you categorize Israel's action in Gaza as "genocide." Let me remind you that Hamas started this war on Oct. 7.
Oh, and what do you call Hitler's extermination of 6 million Jews during WW2, hey?
#stepforwardhandraised
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 12, 2024, 02:48:28 PM
Interesting that you categorize Israel's action in Gaza as "genocide." Let me remind you that Hamas started this war on Oct. 7.
Oh, and what do you call Hitler's extermination of 6 million Jews during WW2, hey?
#stepforwardhandraised
We'll just have to see what the ICJ concludes.
This conflict started long before 10/7/23.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 12, 2024, 02:48:28 PM
Interesting that you categorize Israel's action in Gaza as "genocide." Let me remind you that Hamas started this war on Oct. 7.
Oh, and what do you call Hitler's extermination of 6 million Jews during WW2, hey?
#stepforwardhandraised
Huh. Given Hitler's other fascist actions, I would have thought you'd classify him as "just a pawn".
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 12, 2024, 09:32:25 AM
Right.
Houthis in Yemen are taking their action as long as Israel continues the genocide in Gaza.
So the US can put pressure on Israel to stand down. Or take escalatory action by bombing a sovereign nation.
Are they bombing a sovereign nation, or are they retaliating against a paramilitary organization that attacked US citizens? If the US military attacked cartel strongholds in Juarez or Sinaloa after they killed US tourists, I wouldn't say they were "bombing Mexico".
Also, thats a tricky precedent to set, any time Iran and its proxies don't like something going on in the Middle East, aka progressive action or Westernization, have paramilitary organizations attacked civilian targets and then it will stop and/or revert
Quote from: JWags85 on January 12, 2024, 04:11:13 PM
Are they bombing a sovereign nation, or are they retaliating against a paramilitary organization that attacked US citizens? If the US military attacked cartel strongholds in Juarez or Sinaloa after they killed US tourists, I wouldn't say they were "bombing Mexico".
Also, thats a tricky precedent to set, any time Iran and its proxies don't like something going on in the Middle East, aka progressive action or Westernization, have paramilitary organizations attacked civilian targets and then it will stop and/or revert
That's a fair discussion to have. I guess the interpretation would be by the host country? Does Yemen approve of the attacks by the US? Would Mexico?
At the end of the day, attacks are an escalatory action. That *could* involve the US in another war.
That's what concerns me. US action that may lead to further escalation resulting in war - this time with the US involved directly.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 12, 2024, 04:29:06 PM
That's a fair discussion to have. I guess the interpretation would be by the host country? Does Yemen approve of the attacks by the US? Would Mexico?
At the end of the day, attacks are an escalatory action. That *could* involve the US in another war.
That's what concerns me. US action that may lead to further escalation resulting in war - this time with the US involved directly.
Totally fair. I don't know if Yemen would tacitly "approve" for appearances sake, but the Houthis aren't any friend to the Yemeni government/ruling parties. Probably view it as enemy of my enemy stuff. And obviously the Saudis can't stand the Houthis either
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 12, 2024, 03:02:18 PM
We'll just have to see what the ICJ concludes.
This conflict started long before 10/7/23.
It's quite possible he doesn't actually know or remember anything that happened there before that date except what's in the Bible. Probably doesn't come up often in what Newsmax tells him.
A lot going on here
https://nypost.com/2024/01/12/news/gay-jewish-sperm-donor-says-lesbians-ditched-him-over-gaza-war/
Is Israel Part of What It Means to Be Jewish? Some progressive Jews are embracing "diasporism" — reimagining their faith as one that blesses their lives in America and elsewhere.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/14/us/israel-jewish-america-diasporism.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20240115&instance_id=112555&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=155354&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Last month, on the first night of Hanukkah, more than 200 people packed an old ballroom on the third floor of a restored synagogue in Brooklyn. A few came fresh off the subway from a protest in Manhattan that was organized by left-wing Jewish groups calling for a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war.
They were there to hear from Shaul Magid, 65, whose long, thin white beard and shaved head made him look more like a roadie than a rabbi. A professor of Jewish Studies at Dartmouth as well as (yes) a rabbi, Mr. Magid was there to spread the message elucidated in a new book, "The Necessity of Exile," that Jews today outside Israel — 75 percent of whom live in the United States — should embrace diaspora, the state of living outside a homeland, as a permanent and valuable condition.
"If there's a diasporic reality where Jews have been able to live as Jews, flourish as Jews, not to be oppressed and persecuted — whether they choose to be a Satmar Hasid or Larry David, it doesn't matter — if they're allowed to live the Judaism they want, why would that be a tragedy?" he said.
Mr. Magid's outlook is one of several burgeoning visions for the future of Jewish life that fall under the umbrella of "diasporism." The idea has been getting a new look since Hamas's horrific attack on Israel three months ago and Israel's pulverizing bombing campaign and invasion in Gaza. Those events have forced Jews everywhere to reckon anew with what they think about Israel and the central role it plays in Jewish life — the kind of charged moment when members of spiritual communities can ask themselves what really matters, and sometimes reach radically different conclusions.
One of the things I've always had trouble buying into was that somehow Israeli Jews are the "real" Jews. To some, antisemitism in America is somehow less bad than antisemitism involving Israel, and I never got that.
I happen to think it is possible to strongly support Judaism in America and elsewhere AND to strongly support Israel's right to protect itself as a nation - which includes the cause of eliminating Hamas.
But I don't condemn as "antisemitic" everybody who disagrees with me about Israel's current cause or the way the country is going about handling it. The issue is far too complex.
There has always been a anti-Zionist movement within Judaism. Maybe "anti-Zionist" is too strong. Most Reformed Jews for instance don't really have a religious tie to Israel.
Reformed Judaism is simply a "pick and choose" form of religion, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2024, 09:14:36 AM
Reformed Judaism is simply a "pick and choose" form of religion, aina?
So, exactly like every other form of religion?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2024, 09:14:36 AM
Reformed Judaism is simply a "pick and choose" form of religion, aina?
Wait til I tell you how most Catholics view Catholicism.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 15, 2024, 08:26:48 AM
There has always been a anti-Zionist movement within Judaism. Maybe "anti-Zionist" is too strong. Most Reformed Jews for instance don't really have a religious tie to Israel.
Early on, essentially all Orthodox Jews were firmly against the idea of Zionism, they viewed as disobeying God, who promised their return to Israel only when the Messiah came.
Most Orthodox Jews have moved away from that position, but some still remain and are ostracized.
Others like the article MU82 seem to take a more neutral ground. For a long time (before 1900's), diaspora was a firm tenet of Jewish religion. Some now take a neutral ground and say that they should still cherish the idea of diaspora.
Just FYI, it is not "Reformed Judaism," it is Reform Judaism.
Of the three main ways Judaism is practiced, Reform is the least religious, behind Orthodox and Conservative. Other religions might or might not have similar labels, but there are similar levels to the degrees at which people observe those religions.
There are Orthodox Jews who look down on Reform Jews, but again, that's no different from what takes place in other religions.
There are Reform Jews who actually are quite observant, there are Reform Jews who care deeply about Israel, there are Reform Jews who don't care as deeply about Israel as they do about Judaism where they live (in America or Europe, for example) or Judaism in general.
The vast majority of them (if not all of them) care more about Judaism than gentile dentists who back powerful people that accept and solicit support from antisemites.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 15, 2024, 09:28:24 AM
So, exactly like every other form of religion?
Following the dictates of the Old Testament literally is the only true religion.
Which is why 4Qever sold his daughters into slavery.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 15, 2024, 09:46:33 AM
Wait til I tell you how most Catholics view Catholicism.
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.
Quote from: MU82 on January 15, 2024, 10:29:00 AM
Just FYI, it is not "Reformed Judaism," it is Reform Judaism.
Of the three main ways Judaism is practiced, Reform is the least religious, behind Orthodox and Conservative. Other religions might or might not have similar labels, but there are similar levels to the degrees at which people observe those religions.
There are Orthodox Jews who look down on Reform Jews, but again, that's no different from what takes place in other religions.
There are Reform Jews who actually are quite observant, there are Reform Jews who care deeply about Israel, there are Reform Jews who don't care as deeply about Israel as they do about Judaism where they live (in America or Europe, for example) or Judaism in general.
The vast majority of them (if not all of them) care more about Judaism than gentile dentists who back powerful people that accept and solicit support from antisemites.
Orthodox Jews, the REAL Orthodox ones like we saw digging the tunnel, look down on basically everyone outside of their clan, including any Jews not to their same fervor or observance. Thats why I found it curious when they kept popping up on social media as an tool for people to be like "look, even these very observant Jews disagree with Israel!" not realizing that they weren't pro Palestine, just anti-Israel as reasoned by forgetful above.
As for Reform Judaism, you're spot on. There are Reform Jews who only go to the Synagogue for High Holidays and there are Reform Jews who keep kosher and wear a kippah. I think the only differentiation that needs making is Reform Jews and Secular Jews. Some often lump them together. I think Sultan's statement about ties to Israel is very true for Secular Jews, but I don't think its at all representative for Reform Jews.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 15, 2024, 12:54:15 PM
Orthodox Jews, the REAL Orthodox ones like we saw digging the tunnel, look down on basically everyone outside of their clan, including any Jews not to their same fervor or observance. Thats why I found it curious when they kept popping up on social media as an tool for people to be like "look, even these very observant Jews disagree with Israel!" not realizing that they weren't pro Palestine, just anti-Israel as reasoned by forgetful above.
As for Reform Judaism, you're spot on. There are Reform Jews who only go to the Synagogue for High Holidays and there are Reform Jews who keep kosher and wear a kippah. I think the only differentiation that needs making is Reform Jews and Secular Jews. Some often lump them together. I think Sultan's statement about ties to Israel is very true for Secular Jews, but I don't think its at all representative for Reform Jews.
Yes, to all of that. My family includes Jews from up and down the spectrum, including secular Jews, and your understanding is excellent, Wags.
Bill Ackman, ladies and gentlemen.
Then during a private VIP dinner that night the question of why Biden didn't run for president in 2016 was raised once again, by former Florida governor and 2016 GOP presidential contender Jeb Bush, who asked Biden "why didn't you run?"
Biden explained that part of the decision stemmed from the death of his son Beau Biden, who died of brain cancer in 2015. The room grew quiet as Biden became emotional, and said: "I'm sorry...I've said enough."
That's when Ackman blurted out "Why? That's never stopped you before."
The formal, and understated dinner conversation suddenly turned tense, according to three people who were present and confirmed both the substance and the wording of Biden's responses.
Biden, these people say, turned to someone seated near him, and asked, "who is this pretty boy?," a reference to Ackman.
Then he turned directly to Ackman and stated: "look, I don't know who you are, wiseass, but never disrespect the memory of my dead son!" these people say.
Ackman attempted what was described as an apology, to which Biden said, "just shut the hell up."
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/joe-bidens-beef-with-bill-ackman-sparks-heated-exchange-and-presidential-chatter
Sounds like the kind of guy that MAGAts would worship.
Especially says a lot about Heisy.
The problem is that Heisey views his financial success as an attribute of him being super intelligent, and therefore he must be smart when it comes to whatever he decides to tweet about. But what I have usually found is that highly successful people of all sorts are no overall smarter than most people - they are just highly capable and diligent about the particular thing that has made them successful.
No different than Aaron Rodgers. One of them best football players of all time, but really not all that smarter than most of us - especially when it comes to epidemiology.
But fanbois are gonna fanboi.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 16, 2024, 03:10:43 PM
The problem is that Heisey views his financial success as an attribute of him being super intelligent, and therefore he must be smart when it comes to whatever he decides to tweet about. But what I have usually found is that highly successful people of all sorts are no overall smarter than most people - they are just highly capable and diligent about the particular thing that has made them successful.
No different than Aaron Rodgers. One of them best football players of all time, but really not all that smarter than most of us - especially when it comes to epidemiology.
But fanbois are gonna fanboi.
Overall this is 100% true, I'll throw the caveat out that in some cases, they aren't even highly capable and diligent about that particular thing, rather they were gifted a 1500m lead in a 1-mile race, because of an inheritance.
But it is definitely true that high achieving people of all sorts are often no smarter than the average person. It is one of the tenets I always teach my students that may struggle in my class. I emphasize they don't need to be good or the best at everything, each has their own unique skillsets and it is important to accept and acknowledge where you lack ability, and recognize where you stand out.
Quote from: Jockey on January 16, 2024, 02:45:27 PM
Sounds like the kind of guy that MAGAts would worship.
Especially says a lot about Heisy.
FWIW, Ackman has been nearly uniform in his support and donations of Dems, doesn't mean he's not an arrogant ass, but he's never even hinted at MAGA leanings.
I don't know if its been mentioned here, but Ackman's thesis at Harvard was actually surrounding admissions and Jewish/Asian American students. So demographics of Harvard and its students/staff has clearly been a pet topic of his for some time.
Quote from: forgetful on January 16, 2024, 03:34:31 PM
Overall this is 100% true, I'll throw the caveat out that in some cases, they aren't even highly capable and diligent about that particular thing, rather they were gifted a 1500m lead in a 1-mile race, because of an inheritance.
I hear your point, but I don't necessarily think that's totally fair. There is a reason most fortunes or family companies suffer most in the 3rd generation. Cause money usually isn't enough if you don't have the brains/drive/connections. You likely won't be totally broke, but you're not gonna get/stay ahead.
Though I agree that money/inheritance certainly helps noticeably separate two people of similar intellect/skills. I just always think the "they aren't smart/capable/etc..." argument for very wealthy people/entrepreneurs is lazy unless they literally inherited 9 figure sums and turned it into slightly more 9 figures.
Maybe someone who got a few hundred thousand or a million from family or friend as startup capital shouldn't represent themselves as bootstrapping or hard scrabble start, but turning that into a 100MM+ company is really not any less impressive if looked at honestly, yet people act like its a dunk to call out the origination of funds.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 16, 2024, 04:45:02 PM
Maybe someone who got a few hundred thousand or a million from family or friend as startup capital shouldn't represent themselves as bootstrapping or hard scrabble start, but turning that into a 100MM+ company is really not any less impressive if looked at honestly, yet people act like its a dunk to call out the origination of funds.
It's not just the origination of the funds - although, if we're being honest, that's the most important thing. But it's also the access, connections, resources and opportunities that come with familial wealth.
One of us and a Bezos kid could each be given $1 million to start a business, and little Bezos would have a much better chance of turning it into a $100 million company simply on account of their name and network.
Coming from wealth doesn't mean one's success is unearned or even unimpressive, it just means you had a far easier path to success than 99 percent of your fellow man.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 16, 2024, 02:28:39 PM
Bill Ackman, ladies and gentlemen.
Then during a private VIP dinner that night the question of why Biden didn't run for president in 2016 was raised once again, by former Florida governor and 2016 GOP presidential contender Jeb Bush, who asked Biden "why didn't you run?"
Biden explained that part of the decision stemmed from the death of his son Beau Biden, who died of brain cancer in 2015. The room grew quiet as Biden became emotional, and said: "I'm sorry...I've said enough."
That's when Ackman blurted out "Why? That's never stopped you before."
The formal, and understated dinner conversation suddenly turned tense, according to three people who were present and confirmed both the substance and the wording of Biden's responses.
Biden, these people say, turned to someone seated near him, and asked, "who is this pretty boy?," a reference to Ackman.
Then he turned directly to Ackman and stated: "look, I don't know who you are, wiseass, but never disrespect the memory of my dead son!" these people say.
Ackman attempted what was described as an apology, to which Biden said, "just shut the hell up."
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/joe-bidens-beef-with-bill-ackman-sparks-heated-exchange-and-presidential-chatter
Huh? What does this ad hominem attack on Ackman have to do with antisemitism, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 16, 2024, 05:33:46 PM
Huh? What does this ad hominem attack on Ackman have to do with antisemitism, hey?
This is a thread about plagiarism in academia.
#don'tcopyandpastewithoutprovidinglinks
Quote from: Jockey on January 16, 2024, 02:45:27 PM
Sounds like the kind of guy that MAGAts would worship.
Especially says a lot about Heisy.
Ackman: "Antisemitism is bad, except when Musk does it."
Also Ackman: "Plagiarism is bad, except when my wife does it."
Sounds like the perfect hypocrite for 4Qver.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 16, 2024, 05:05:58 PM
It's not just the origination of the funds - although, if we're being honest, that's the most important thing. But it's also the access, connections, resources and opportunities that come with familial wealth.
One of us and a Bezos kid could each be given $1 million to start a business, and little Bezos would have a much better chance of turning it into a $100 million company simply on account of their name and network.
Coming from wealth doesn't mean one's success is unearned or even unimpressive, it just means you had a far easier path to success than 99 percent of your fellow man.
Sure, but he said "inheritance" so I just went off of that. No arguments on the path, I just think thats a totally different angle to it all than common implications (not directly citing anyone here) that very successful children from money are just successful cause they came from money.
I honestly know more middling/life long middle management type people from trust funds (the ones with a totally normal, not super impressive or lucrative job yet drive a very expensive car/have a really nice condo) than the ones who spun it into something impressive among the "rich kids" I knew in college and into my 30s in Chicago.
Thank god this isn't X or I'd have 20 replies calling me a bootlicker.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 16, 2024, 09:34:03 PM
Sure, but he said "inheritance" so I just went off of that. No arguments on the path, I just think thats a totally different angle to it all than common implications (not directly citing anyone here) that very successful children from money are just successful cause they came from money.
I honestly know more middling/life long middle management type people from trust funds (the ones with a totally normal, not super impressive or lucrative job yet drive a very expensive car/have a really nice condo) than the ones who spun it into something impressive among the "rich kids" I knew in college and into my 30s in Chicago.
Thank god this isn't X or I'd have 20 replies calling me a bootlicker.
You effen bootlicker!
https://youtu.be/2PeYDphtHYo?si=SQ7d3h0zDZrpLyn5
Lots of pride. Tons of envy. Two of the 7 deadly sins alive and well on Scoop.
No idolatry!
Quote from: JWags85 on January 16, 2024, 09:34:03 PM
Sure, but he said "inheritance" so I just went off of that. No arguments on the path, I just think thats a totally different angle to it all than common implications (not directly citing anyone here) that very successful children from money are just successful cause they came from money.
I honestly know more middling/life long middle management type people from trust funds (the ones with a totally normal, not super impressive or lucrative job yet drive a very expensive car/have a really nice condo) than the ones who spun it into something impressive among the "rich kids" I knew in college and into my 30s in Chicago.
Thank god this isn't X or I'd have 20 replies calling me a bootlicker.
Your response is well noted and true. I tried to be careful and write "in some cases" to emphasize that this is not a normal rule. But in general, if I had to rank in importance things that will help you succeed in life, I'd probably rank it like this:
1. Connections. Getting a door open for an opportunity is one of the biggest limitations to success.
2. Resources (e.g. capital).
3. Willing to take risks when they present themselves.
4. Hard Work
5. Luck
6. Intelligence
The rankings don't mean that one can't have success without #'s 1 and 2, it just means it'll take more of 4-6. And number 3, is a big limiter for many people. It takes risk to hit home runs. And having access to 1 and 2, minimizes the real risk some people have to take.
Bravo for Leon Cooperman 👏🏻. Definitely doesn't have chit for brains, aina?
https://apple.news/AMa3pThtHTLuFWNU_-CfN0A
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 06:56:03 AM
Bravo for Leon Cooperman 👏🏻. Definitely doesn't have chit for brains, aina?
https://apple.news/AMa3pThtHTLuFWNU_-CfN0A
I agree with you. The students who say such things are idiots, and possibly antisemites (though more likely most are just young and ignorant).
I hope you'll agree with me that what students think or say isn't as big a problem for Jews as, for example, the former president of the United States dining with a white supremacist who would like to see Jews wiped off the face of the earth.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 12, 2024, 09:32:25 AM
Right.
Houthis in Yemen are taking their action as long as Israel continues the genocide in Gaza.
So the US can put pressure on Israel to stand down. Or take escalatory action by bombing a sovereign nation.
They both feel they're in the right here, when really more bombs doesn't help anything.
They're both wrong.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2024, 09:14:36 AM
Reformed Judaism is simply a "pick and choose" form of religion, aina?
Ask the Hasidic Jews in New York how they feel about Israel.
aka, you don't know chit as usual.
Huh, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 10:40:38 AM
Huh, hey?
I regret to inform you not all Jewish people are Zionists, and I cited a specific group. Wipe off your specs or grab another cup of joe to defog your brain.
Thankx Dad, eye'll just ax a fellow Scooper, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 10:55:12 AM
Thankx Dad, eye'll just ax a fellow Scooper, aina?
No need, you can verify it on your own!
https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1747967081541255628?t=VmAKG96fZqWriBq-MF1mVA&s=19
The Israeli minister of national security believes Israel should occupy Gaza and re-locate all Palestinians.
Super! Send them back to their Middle Eastern brothers and sisters, aina?
https://x.com/nathantankus/status/1748048086016938150?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 12:26:53 PM
Super! Send them back to their Middle Eastern brothers and sisters, aina?
Israel is in the Middle East or are you insinuating its people aren't actually from there
Let me guess. Logic and readin' comprehension is knot ur forte, aina?
My great fear is, with the rise of anti-semitism in America, political leaders across the country will be afraid to admit it still exists in this country and will ban teaching about the holocaust or using the word holocaust in schools.
I just hope American children get taught about anti-semites like Henry Ford, Charles Coughlin and Charles Lindbergh. Sadly, to protect children from our sketchy history, we'll probably not be allowed to teach about these Americans anymore
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 18, 2024, 01:47:44 PM
My great fear is, with the rise of anti-semitism in America, political leaders across the country will be afraid to admit it still exists in this country and will ban teaching about the holocaust or using the word holocaust in schools.
I just hope American children get taught about anti-semites like Henry Ford, Charles Coughlin and Charles Lindbergh. Sadly, to protect children from our sketchy history, we'll probably not be allowed to teach about these Americans anymore
Some Holocaust victims learned useful skills in Nazi forced labor camps.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 18, 2024, 01:52:31 PM
Some Holocaust victims learned useful skills in Nazi forced labor camps.
That's what Doc's boy, soon-to-be-ex-GOP-prez-candidate DeSantis, would claim.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 01:39:43 PM
Let me guess. Logic and readin' comprehension is knot ur forte, aina?
Boy that's rich
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 18, 2024, 01:47:44 PM
My great fear is, with the rise of anti-semitism in America, political leaders across the country will be afraid to admit it still exists in this country and will ban teaching about the holocaust or using the word holocaust in schools.
I just hope American children get taught about anti-semites like Henry Ford, Charles Coughlin and Charles Lindbergh. Sadly, to protect children from our sketchy history, we'll probably not be allowed to teach about these Americans anymore
There are deniers throughout the world. But, there are 6 million reasons to refute them, aina?
#neveragain
Quote from: Pakuni on January 18, 2024, 01:52:31 PM
Some Holocaust victims learned useful skills in Nazi forced labor camps.
You are full of chit. Won't let you spit your hatred unchecked, aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:11:21 PM
You are full of chit. Won't let you spit your hatred unchecked, aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYjd2NXFlbGRza2thNzZmaTA1YmFhN3dmcHcweDgzazVsZTFkam82ZCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/mEahVAkKjt0VL2o5Jk/giphy.gif)
Quote from: MU82 on January 18, 2024, 01:56:14 PM
That's what Doc's boy, soon-to-be-ex-GOP-prez-candidate DeSantis, would claim.
Shocked that you're not pushing back on Pakman's shameful statement of hate, hey?
You are missing the clear sarcasm and references to statements made about slavery by politicians and educational curriculum.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 18, 2024, 02:13:53 PM
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYjd2NXFlbGRza2thNzZmaTA1YmFhN3dmcHcweDgzazVsZTFkam82ZCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/mEahVAkKjt0VL2o5Jk/giphy.gif)
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't find comments like yours to be funny, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:16:05 PM
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't find comments like yours to be funny, hey?
Of course not. It pokes fun of people who think like you.
https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-says-black-people-benefited-from-skills-learned-in-slavery-2023-7
Sadly, Gov. DeSantis has no chance at the nomination. IMO, he ran a terrible campaign and simply doesn't connect with voters. Too bad, because I believe he would have made a terrific POTUS, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:21:06 PM
Sadly, Gov. DeSantis has no chance at the nomination. IMO, he ran a terrible campaign and simply doesn't connect with voters. Too bad, because I believe he would have made a terrific POTUS, hey?
Scott Walker, Part II
And like most sequels to bad movies, it managed to be even worse.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:14:06 PM
Shocked that you're not pushing back on Pakman's shameful statement of hate, hey?
Shocked that you weren't able to understand a sarcastic line. Did you also think All in the Family was making fun of Jews rather than antisemites?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:21:06 PM
Sadly, Gov. DeSantis has no chance at the nomination. IMO, he ran a terrible campaign and simply doesn't connect with voters. Too bad, because I believe he would have made a terrific POTUS, hey?
I'm not a fan of politicians who ban books and who think slavery had its good points. But sure, anybody would be better than the charlatan your cult worships.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:11:21 PM
You are full of chit. Won't let you spit your hatred unchecked, aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1748045086812692757?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
We should revoke his MIT degree for his antisemitic remarks.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:11:21 PM
You are full of chit. Won't let you spit your hatred unchecked, aina?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Whoosh
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:21:06 PM
Sadly, Gov. DeSantis has no chance at the nomination. IMO, he ran a terrible campaign and simply doesn't connect with voters. Too bad, because I believe he would have made a terrific POTUS, hey?
The guy that said slaves benefited from being slaves is your kind of POTUS, eh? On brand.
Were you home schooled, hey?
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 18, 2024, 02:27:28 PM
https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1748045086812692757?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
We should revoke his MIT degree for his antisemitic remarks.
#fromtherivertothesea
"DeSantis says Black people benefited from slavery by learning skills like 'being a blacksmith'"
"I believe he would have made a terrific POTUS" – 4Qver
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 02:08:10 PM
There are deniers throughout the world. But, there are 6 million reasons to refute them, aina?
#neveragain
Hopefully, legislators and governors across this country understand why it's important to teach history, all of it, not just the stuff that doesn't make America look bad. I'm not counting on it, though
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 18, 2024, 02:46:33 PM
#fromtherivertothesea
If it is called genocidal for one side to make such statements, it is genocidal for any side to make such a statement.
Here ya goe, hey?
According to legal scholars Amichai Cohen and Yuval Shany, the definition of genocide is "well settled" and "commonly agreed." There is a consensus that "genocide involves killing members of a national or ethnic group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group and inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the group's physical destruction in whole or in part."
Despite the baseless accusations against Israel at the International Court of Justice, this is not happening in Gaza. Nonetheless, the ICJ blood libel is an object lesson in how the international anti-Israel mob works. Slandering Israel and Jews is a time-honored method of diverting attention from the depredations of others. It also erases the victims of these crimes without so much as a crocodile tear.
Here are some examples of such depredations:
Darfur, Sudan: In 2007, then-U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell described the situation in Darfur as genocide. The U.N. estimates that by 2016, 300,000 people had been killed and there was credible evidence that the Sudanese government used chemical weapons against the local population. Since Feb. 2023, government-sponsored militias have killed an estimated 400,000 people through starvation and disease. Mass rape has also occurred. More than 2.5 million people have been internally displaced and over 200,000 have fled to Chad.
Rwanda: From April-July 1994, an estimated 800,000 people—one-tenth of the entire population—were killed and much of the remaining population displaced.
Bosnia: In 1992, more than 200,000 Muslim civilians were systematically murdered and two million became refugees at the hands of the Serbs. Rape was a systematic part of these atrocities.
Cambodia: From 1975-1979, 25% of the population died from starvation, overwork and execution under the Khmer Rouge.
East Timor: During a 24-year occupation by Indonesia that ended in 1999, more than 20% of the population was massacred and 80% of structures in the country were incinerated.
Guatemala: From 1978-1983, government forces carried out massacres and civilian executions of an estimated 200,000 people. There were at least 40,000 "disappearances." The Maya population constituted 83% of the identified victims. The event is known as the Maya Genocide.
Armenia: From 1915-1916, between 664,000 and 1.2 million Armenians were killed by Turkey, either in mass executions and individual killings or from the brutality and deprivation of forced deportations.
Add to that the horrific death counts that may or may not meet the precise definition of genocide. Approximately 500,000 Syrians, mostly Sunni Muslims, have been killed by dictator Bashar Assad's regime, including through the use of chemical weapons. More than 11 million Syrians have become either internal or external refugees.
Nearly 400,000 have been killed in Yemen. The International Rescue Committee estimates that 5.4 million Congolese have been killed in a war that continues today, with Christians being disproportionately targeted. As of 2023, 187,000-210,000 are estimated to have been killed in Iraq and 236,000 in Afghanistan.
China gets special mention.
The country's 1958 "Great Leap Forward" destroyed the agricultural system, causing a famine in which 27 million people starved to death. This was not directed at a specific ethnic group, so it may not qualify as genocide; but in 2021, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken called China's treatment of its Turkic Muslim Uyghur population a genocide.
Findings by Genocide Watch bear him out:
Since 2017, between 800,000-2,000,000 million Uyghurs have been held in Xinjiang's concentration prisons, commonly referred to as "reeducation camps." Uyghurs are forced to participate in [Chinese Communist Party] indoctrination programs in which detainees are forced to abandon their Muslim faith and culture. The CCP forbids use of the Uyghur language and imposes Mandarin Chinese within these camps. Inside camps, CCP officials subject Uyghurs to physical beatings, sexual assault and gang rapes of women.
Despite all this, the international community prefers to focus on defaming Israel for daring to conduct a legitimate war of self-defense launched only after Hamas raped, tortured, mutilated and burned to death 1,200 Israelis and carried off 240 more as hostages.
One of the most powerful denunciations of this campaign of slander came from a country that has the moral authority to speak on the subject: Germany.
German government spokesman Steffen Hebestreit said in a statement last week, "In light of German history and the crimes against humanity of the Shoah, the German government is particularly committed to the [U.N.] Genocide Convention." For this reason, he said, "We stand firmly against a political instrumentalization" of the Convention.
Acknowledging divergent views in the international community on Israel's military operations, he nonetheless asserted, "The German government decisively and expressly rejects the accusation of genocide brought against Israel before the International Court of Justice. The accusation has no basis in fact."
Not reading all that, just let me know if it's genocidal to say that phrase or not.
Also this week Germany and France basically acknowledge here that there's justification and much lower standards of violent restraints due to past atrocities done to the Jewish people.
That suggests they know what's happening at the hands of Israel is barbaric but since one of the worst atrocities in human history happened to the decedents of the people perpetrating it, we do not enforce our international standards.
You are free to agree or disagree with that logic I guess but I think it says all it needs to say about the severity of actual events that are occurring.
Aka two wrongs are making a right
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 04:49:53 PM
Here ya goe, hey?
Bosnia: In 1992, more than 200,000 Muslim civilians were systematically murdered and two million became refugees at the hands of the Serbs. Rape was a systematic part of these atrocities.
Israel should be careful with this reference.
1. 200,000 civilians were not systematically murdered. 100,000 died in a civil war, only 80,000 of whom were Bosniaks.
So if Israel wants to call 80,000 people dying in a 3-year long civil war, genocide. Then what is 25,000 civilian deaths in ~4 months considered?
2. Many of the crimes the Serbs were tried for was due to internal displacement of people, which was deemed ethnic cleansing.
So if they want to draw attention to this, they have to review their own forced internal displacement of the Palestinians.
And yes, Milosevic was a war criminal who committed genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Really stupid to use this example.
How can any argument claiming genocide by Israel resolve the fact that the population of Arabs in Israel went from less than 100K to almost 300k in the last 80 years . Many have spoken out about how Israel has been the only place in the Middle East where they have hope for a better life and serve in all branches of Israeli government. Facts don't give with the rhetoric while the other side is committed to the destruction of a functioning state.
https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1748155046397653087?t=hz0vmvN85jfB1b6YqhTqVw&s=19
Progress on a Palestinian state agreement
Neva gonna work, so neva gonna happen, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 08:48:40 PM
Neva gonna work, so neva gonna happen, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Do you mean that in the Palestinian way or the Netanyahu way?
Both, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 18, 2024, 08:48:40 PM
Neva gonna work, so neva gonna happen, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
I'm sure they've got you on speed dial for advice. White Christian Male from Mequon, Wisconsin.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 19, 2024, 06:01:18 AM
I'm sure they've got you on speed dial for advice. White Christian Male from Mequon, Wisconsin.
To be fair, 4Qever has told us how Jewish folks are supposed to act
Knot sure day kan afford my fee, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 19, 2024, 06:32:56 AM
Knot sure day kan afford my fee, hey?
You don't take their insurance carrier?
Some posters here love Glenn Greenwald.
Here are his views on Israel, Palestinians, the war, Bill Ackman, free speech and the conservative pro-cancel culture movement:
https://youtu.be/Pive4mdvDHE?si=zw9PhvaTxUwReOmz
I look forward to further discussion
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 19, 2024, 11:14:20 AM
Some posters here love Glenn Greenwald.
Here are his views on Israel, Palestinians, the war, Bill Ackman, free speech and the conservative pro-cancel culture movement:
https://youtu.be/Pive4mdvDHE?si=zw9PhvaTxUwReOmz
I look forward to further discussion
Greenwald's standard take is "if the U.S. government is doing it or supports it, then it's bad." Really has zero credibility after carrying Putin's water for the past two years.
Speaking of antisemitism ... yikes!
https://www.mediaite.com/news/jason-whitlock-nods-as-guest-claims-jews-have-created-a-plantation-for-black-people-and-457-of-them-are-running-the-biden-administration/
Quote from: Pakuni on January 19, 2024, 11:29:59 AM
Greenwald's standard take is "if the U.S. government is doing it or supports it, then it's bad." Really has zero credibility after carrying Putin's water for the past two years.
Speaking of antisemitism ... yikes!
https://www.mediaite.com/news/jason-whitlock-nods-as-guest-claims-jews-have-created-a-plantation-for-black-people-and-457-of-them-are-running-the-biden-administration/
Whitlock spent last week blaming ESPN for why he was getting porn site ads on his computer
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 19, 2024, 11:14:20 AM
Some posters here love Glenn Greenwald.
Here are his views on Israel, Palestinians, the war, Bill Ackman, free speech and the conservative pro-cancel culture movement:
https://youtu.be/Pive4mdvDHE?si=zw9PhvaTxUwReOmz
I look forward to further discussion
Classic stuff. This will necessitate much twist-into-pretzeling.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 19, 2024, 11:29:59 AM
Greenwald's standard take is "if the U.S. government is doing it or supports it, then it's bad." Really has zero credibility after carrying Putin's water for the past two years.
Maybe.
I'm interested in hearing from those who used greenwalds views as support for their positions in the last few months.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 19, 2024, 11:54:45 AM
Maybe.
I'm interested in hearing from those who used greenwalds views as support for their positions in the last few months.
Only his views that conform to their very narrow and misinformed worldview count
A 17-year old American teenager was shot in the head and killed by the IDF in the West Bank.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 19, 2024, 06:01:18 AM
I'm sure they've got you on speed dial for advice. White Christian Male from Mequon, Wisconsin.
Hards Alumni
Aren't you the fascist who called for complete isolation and discrimination against those who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, even though it disproportionately impacted minorities (which I know matters to you and your white savior complex)?
Didn't you literally call for them to be shamed and prohibited from basic life necessities?
You still feel that way?
People, please go back and look at his posts on the topic. What this man suggested the second he felt he had the moral upper hand with the vaccine is exactly the same mentality of a complete lunatic in power.
He called for them to be publicly shamed.
It showed his true fascist and racist tendencies, so I find it hilarious that he tries to play the race card here.
Waiting for your apology to the nonvaxed, lower income, immigrant community, but instead, I am sure you will deflect because it is really damaging. Actually no, you are so stupid that you may actually double down on your tyrannical position.
People, never let this clown think he has the upper hand. He is a virtue signaling, insecure, pompous moron.
lol. People still use the term "virtue signaling" and expect to be taken seriously?
Reviewing past posts.... COVID broke moomoo's brain
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 21, 2024, 08:21:08 AM
Reviewing past posts.... COVID broke moomoo's brain
Wouldn't you say Covid broke the brain of those who called for denial of basic necessities and public shaming of the non vaxed?
I can see your face getting more red by the second....lol.
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 08:32:23 AM
Wouldn't you say Covid broke the brain of those who called for denial of basic necessities and public shaming of the non vaxed?
I can see your face getting more red by the second....lol.
I don't see anyone who called for the "denial of basic necessities." Doubling down on hyperbole isn't helping you.
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 08:32:23 AM
Wouldn't you say Covid broke the brain of those who called for denial of basic necessities and public shaming of the non vaxed?
I can see your face getting more red by the second....lol.
COVID definitely broke some people's brains. For sure
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 21, 2024, 08:42:45 AM
COVID definitely broke some people's brains. For sure
"Fahrenheit, my ass is takin' dat vaccine da furst moment itz available ta mee, hey?"
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 21, 2024, 08:34:29 AM
I don't see anyone who called for the "denial of basic necessities." Doubling down on hyperbole isn't helping you.
Here is Hards Alumni's direct quote, you lying fool.
"Instead of treating the stupid people of the US with kid gloves we need to ostracize them from society, and mock their foolish opinions. There is nothing fascist about that, but then you probably don't understand the meaning of the word. You can be of the opinion that grass is blue, and the sky is green, but no one should take you seriously. Similarly, anyone who is antivax should not be taken seriously."
Oh, wait...maybe you don't know what the word "ostracize" means (it does have three syllables so I should have anticipated this). It means "completely exclude".
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 10:07:02 AM
Here is Hards Alumni's direct quote, you lying fool.
"Instead of treating the stupid people of the US with kid gloves we need to ostracize them from society, and mock their foolish opinions. There is nothing fascist about that, but then you probably don't understand the meaning of the word. You can be of the opinion that grass is blue, and the sky is green, but no one should take you seriously. Similarly, anyone who is antivax should not be taken seriously."
Oh, wait...maybe you don't know what the word "ostracize" means (it does have three syllables so I should have anticipated this). It means "completely exclude".
So no one called for "denial of basic necessities." Thanks for proving my point and pointing out your own hyperbole.
Always easiest when someone self-owns.
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 10:07:02 AM
Here is Hards Alumni's direct quote, you lying fool.
"Instead of treating the stupid people of the US with kid gloves we need to ostracize them from society, and mock their foolish opinions. There is nothing fascist about that, but then you probably don't understand the meaning of the word. You can be of the opinion that grass is blue, and the sky is green, but no one should take you seriously. Similarly, anyone who is antivax should not be taken seriously."
Oh, wait...maybe you don't know what the word "ostracize" means (it does have three syllables so I should have anticipated this). It means "completely exclude".
"Anyone who disagrees with me should be ostracized".
Sounds like a true believer in democracy.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 21, 2024, 10:13:42 AM
So no one called for "denial of basic necessities." Thanks for proving my point and pointing out your own hyperbole.
Always easiest when someone self-owns.
Ha! You really don't know what the word means! You can't make this up!
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 10:31:03 AM
Ha! You really don't know what the word means! You can't make this up!
LOL. I know what it means. But apparently don't?
Anyway it must sting to wait all these years to just find a way to get at Hards, only to whiff so badly.
Better luck next time!
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 21, 2024, 10:36:04 AM
LOL. I know what it means. But apparently don't?
Anyway it must sting to wait all these years to just find a way to get at Hards, only to whiff so badly.
Better luck next time!
Let's ostracize them. Let's prevent them from working so they can make money to live. Let's publicly mock them. Let's call them stupid right to their face.
Sultan: But he didn't specifically say prevent them from basic necessities of a peaceful life!!!!!
LOL!!!!
Hey Sultan, imagine if those things were suggested by Hards against another group, like undocumented immigrants, would you defend him then?
If yes, then you are a disgusting fascist. If no, then you are a total hypocrite.
Either way, you and Hards will always be morons!
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 10:54:23 AM
Let's ostracize them. Let's prevent them from working so they can make money to live. Let's publicly mock them. Let's call them stupid right to their face.
Sultan: But he didn't specifically say prevent them from basic necessities of a peaceful life!!!!!
LOL!!!!
Hey Sultan, imagine if those things were suggested by Hards against another group, like undocumented immigrants, would you defend him then?
If yes, then you are a disgusting fascist. If no, then you are a total hypocrite.
Either way, you and Hards will always be morons!
lol. Logic fail.
I'm not defending what he said. I'm saying he didn't say what you said he did.
But keep flailing around if you must. I can do this all day.
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 10:54:23 AM
Let's ostracize them. Let's prevent them from working so they can make money to live. Let's publicly mock them. Let's call them stupid right to their face.
During the pandemic, the Israeli government imposed a policy by which one needed to be vaccinated to obtain a "green pass," which permitted entry to cultural and sports events, festivals, halls, conferences and exhibitions, hotels, gyms, houses of worship that hold over 50 people, restaurants, bars, cafes, museums, libraries, tourist attractions, amusement parks, universities and institutions of higher education.
The unvaccinated were, as you put it, totally "ostracized."
Were the Israelis acting fascist?
Welcome back, moo moo.
Looks like Pudding Fingers has time to fight anti-semitism in Florida universities
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 21, 2024, 02:12:54 PM
Looks like Pudding Fingers has time to fight anti-semitism in Florida universities
lol
https://x.com/dominicjpino/status/1749165814710730916?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
Bill O'Reilly was all for book bans in Florida ... until they banned a couple of his "Killing So-And-So" books. Then he was demanding that DeSantis do something about excessive book bans.
I mean, how great is that?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 21, 2024, 02:56:41 PM
lol
https://x.com/dominicjpino/status/1749165814710730916?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
Well, I do have it on a notebook I bought from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Success-failure-continue-Winston-Churchill/dp/B09BT8958G (https://www.amazon.com/Success-failure-continue-Winston-Churchill/dp/B09BT8958G)
Quote from: MU82 on January 21, 2024, 03:01:39 PM
Bill O'Reilly was all for book bans in Florida ... until they banned a couple of his "Killing So-And-So" books. Then he was demanding that DeSantis do something about excessive book bans.
I mean, how great is that?
Gotta keep those kids from learning ... words?
One school district in Florida is looking to extend the state's book ban to an unexpected genre: dictionaries. According to a list obtained and published by the nonprofit PEN America, the Escambia County school district has included five dictionaries, eight encyclopedias and "The Guinness Book of World Records," in its list of more than 1,600 books that could soon be banned. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-school-district-pulls-dictionaries-and-encyclopedias-as-part-of-sexual-or-inappropriate-content-review/
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 21, 2024, 02:56:41 PM
lol
https://x.com/dominicjpino/status/1749165814710730916?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
He's going to be awesome on Dancing With The Stars
Quote from: Pakuni on January 21, 2024, 03:07:27 PM
Gotta keep those kids from learning ... words?
One school district in Florida is looking to extend the state's book ban to an unexpected genre: dictionaries. According to a list obtained and published by the nonprofit PEN America, the Escambia County school district has included five dictionaries, eight encyclopedias and "The Guinness Book of World Records," in its list of more than 1,600 books that could soon be banned.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-school-district-pulls-dictionaries-and-encyclopedias-as-part-of-sexual-or-inappropriate-content-review/
Need more screaming about Cancel Culture!!!
Also, Mr. Potato Head.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 21, 2024, 02:56:41 PM
lol
https://x.com/dominicjpino/status/1749165814710730916?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg
But to his people, Churchill definitely did say it.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 21, 2024, 02:12:54 PM
Looks like Pudding Fingers has time to fight anti-semitism in Florida universities
With Doc's boy out, now only Pelosi stands in Doc's cult leader's way for the GOP nomination.
Quote from: MU82 on January 21, 2024, 05:40:16 PM
With Doc's boy out, now only Pelosi stands in Doc's cult leader's way for the GOP nomination.
He beat Obama the last time, he'll do it again.
I'm just glad that Nikki Haley is finally getting blamed for January 6.
Incorrectly identified his only remaining GOP rival over and over again ... but he was able to identify a drawing of a whale 6 years ago, so no cognitive issues at all.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 21, 2024, 08:21:08 AM
Reviewing past posts.... COVID broke moomoo's brain
Quite the gap. Must have just gotten out of prison for dental crimes.
Quote from: MU82 on January 21, 2024, 07:05:05 PM
Incorrectly identified his only remaining GOP rival over and over again ... but he was able to identify a drawing of a whale 6 years ago, so no cognitive issues at all.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/c8/b0/SqlsdFpb_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/SqlsdFpb)
144 attacks on American troops in the region since 10/7. 2 seals dead doing...? Already multiple offensive attacks on Houthis, with plans developing for sustained offensive attacks.
Wtf are we doing?
Allowing ourselves to get sucked in.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 22, 2024, 04:15:57 PM
144 attacks on American troops in the region since 10/7. 2 seals dead doing...? Already multiple offensive attacks on Houthis, with plans developing for sustained offensive attacks.
Wtf are we doing?
It's not a mystery what the SEALs were doing.
I'm not sure the U.S. response has been the best response, but there needs to be some response, right? Can't just allow the Houthis free rein to fire missiles at American troops and interests and pretend it's not happening.
Quote from: tower912 on January 22, 2024, 04:24:48 PM
Allowing ourselves to get sucked in.
Into what?
Not trying to be snarky ... legitimately asking what do you think we'll be sucked into.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 22, 2024, 04:28:52 PM
It's not a mystery what the SEALs were doing.
I'm not sure the U.S. response has been the best response, but there needs to be some response, right? Can't just allow the Houthis free rein to fire missiles at American troops and interests and pretend it's not happening.
It's a tough line to walk, I agree.
So are we at war with the Houthis? If so, I'd like congress to announce that declaration
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 22, 2024, 05:05:06 PM
It's a tough line to walk, I agree.
So are we at war with the Houthis? If so, I'd like congress to announce that declaration
Is a declaration of war necessary to shoot back at a group of people who are not a sovereign nation? This seems more Barbary Pirates than Pearl Harbor.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 22, 2024, 04:15:57 PM
144 attacks on American troops in the region since 10/7. 2 seals dead doing...? Already multiple offensive attacks on Houthis, with plans developing for sustained offensive attacks.
Wtf are we doing?
Question for the BOTUS, aina?
Quote from: Pakuni on January 22, 2024, 05:17:24 PM
Is a declaration of war necessary to shoot back at a group of people who are not a sovereign nation? This seems more Barbary Pirates than Pearl Harbor.
I guess that depends on what the next attacks are like and how long they are sustained. A couple weeks is different than a few months.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 22, 2024, 05:58:04 PM
Question for the BOTUS, aina?
He should ask Pudding Fingers to act as a special envoy now that his political career is over
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 22, 2024, 05:58:04 PM
Question for the BOTUS, aina?
Broken clock aina?
Would be nice to know why we don't do congressional approval for these things anymore at the very least. A "sustained assault" sounds like a nice little quagmire yet again.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 22, 2024, 05:17:24 PM
Is a declaration of war necessary to shoot back at a group of people who are not a sovereign nation? This seems more Barbary Pirates than Pearl Harbor.
The official government of Yemen are Saudi puppets and 80% of Yemen is controlled by the Houthi's. So yeah probably should go through more official channels. Its not just a scrappy little group of pirates causing trouble.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 22, 2024, 07:04:12 PM
The official government of Yemen are Saudi puppets and 80% of Yemen is controlled by the Houthi's. So yeah probably should go through more official channels. Its not just a scrappy little group of pirates causing trouble.
80%?
I didn't call them a scrappy group of pirates. The Barbary pirates weren't a scrappy group of pirates either.
I'm just not sure what the mechanism is (because it doesn't exist, it seems) for declaring war on a tribe.
(https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/INTERACTIVE-Yemen-war-who-controls-what.png?w=770&resize=770%2C770&quality=80)
Quote from: Pakuni on January 22, 2024, 07:14:52 PM
80%?
I didn't call them a scrappy group of pirates. The Barbary pirates weren't a scrappy group of pirates either.
I'm just not sure what the mechanism is (because it doesn't exist, it seems) for declaring war on a tribe.
(https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/INTERACTIVE-Yemen-war-who-controls-what.png?w=770&resize=770%2C770&quality=80)
Inhabited by 80% of the population. Yeah.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/africa/dont-bomb-houthis
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 22, 2024, 07:04:12 PM
The official government of Yemen are Saudi puppets and 80% of Yemen is controlled by the Houthi's. So yeah probably should go through more official channels. Its not just a scrappy little group of pirates causing trouble.
The Houthis are completely funded by Iran
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 22, 2024, 07:18:32 PM
Inhabited by 80% of the population. Yeah.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/africa/dont-bomb-houthis
Well, that's not what you wrote, but doesn't really change anything.
As far as I can tell, there's no method or requirement for Congress to declare war on a non-nation state.
It's reasonable to debate how best to respond to the Houthi attacks, but arguing that any response requires or demands a formal declaration from Congress is neither historically or legally accurate, nor is it realistic.
But beyond the semantical argument, what is it you suggest be done in response to the ongoing Houthi attacks and threats?
Huh.
Someone stated here repeatedly that Israel was united in its goal to completely eliminate Hamas. Yet we have a member of his own war cabinet stating that they need to pursue an "extended cease fire."
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/19/us/divisions-israel-gaza-netanyahu-hostages.html\\
"A member of Israel's war cabinet, a general who lost a son in the conflict, urged in a television interview broadcast late Thursday that the country pursue an extended cease-fire with Hamas to free the remaining hostages, a rebuke of the "total victory" being pursued by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu."
...
"The Israeli official who criticized the prosecution of the war, Lt. Gen. Gadi Eisenkot, a retired military chief of staff, has laid bare some of the persistent tensions within the wartime government. General Eisenkot said Israel's leaders must define a vision for how to wind down the war in Gaza, and for its desired outcome. Only a deal with Hamas would secure the release of the hostages, he said, adding that Israel had so far failed in its stated aim of destroying Hamas. More than 240 people were taken hostage on Oct. 7, and about 130 people remain captives in Gaza."
From the NYT: After visiting Auschwitz, Elon Musk said he had been "naïve" about the dangers posed by anti-Jewish sentiment, but he added that he had so many Jewish friends that he was "Jewish by association."
He's not. Those who are "Jewish by association" don't make and endorse antisemitic comments.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 23, 2024, 06:57:10 AM
Well, that's not what you wrote, but doesn't really change anything.
As far as I can tell, there's no method or requirement for Congress to declare war on a non-nation state.
It's reasonable to debate how best to respond to the Houthi attacks, but arguing that any response requires or demands a formal declaration from Congress is neither historically or legally accurate, nor is it realistic.
But beyond the semantical argument, what is it you suggest be done in response to the ongoing Houthi attacks and threats?
Land doesn't vote I thought, but you're right we are arguing semantics and you and I don't need to poke each other any more about it.
I mean the answer probably is a ceasefire in Gaza but we know that's not happening at least in the near term.
I don't have an answer to what to do otherwise, because I know you will likely regard my passivism as naive. but my discussion on the matter is you should be seeking congressional approval on it for a military operation of this size and scope on the de facto controllers of the country. 1, because will require you to even surface level have to justify your actions to the American people vs a retroactive analysis we constantly have to rely on, and 2, because the past several administrations and their incredibly itchy trigger finger have caused incalculable collateral damage with little to no oversight and I (maybe delusional) believe having to go through the formality will at least divert the more reckless actions being debated.
Just because presidential reach has exceeded most oversight doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
Quote from: MU82 on January 23, 2024, 09:44:19 AM
From the NYT: After visiting Auschwitz, Elon Musk said he had been "naïve" about the dangers posed by anti-Jewish sentiment, but he added that he had so many Jewish friends that he was "Jewish by association."
He's not. Those who are "Jewish by association" don't make and endorse antisemitic comments.
I wonder if he has a lot of black friend, too.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 23, 2024, 10:42:12 AM
Land doesn't vote I thought, but you're right we are arguing semantics and you and I don't need to poke each other any more about it.
I mean the answer probably is a ceasefire in Gaza but we know that's not happening at least in the near term.
I don't have an answer to what to do otherwise, because I know you will likely regard my passivism as naive. but my discussion on the matter is you should be seeking congressional approval on it for a military operation of this size and scope on the de facto controllers of the country. 1, because will require you to even surface level have to justify your actions to the American people vs a retroactive analysis we constantly have to rely on, and 2, because the past several administrations and their incredibly itchy trigger finger have caused incalculable collateral damage with little to no oversight and I (maybe delusional) believe having to go through the formality will at least divert the more reckless actions being debated.
Just because presidential reach has exceeded most oversight doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
I know its not your intention, but I think its given undue legitimacy to a borderline terrorist organization. You call the actual government of Yemen "Saudi puppets" but urge proper protocol and respect for an Iranian funded insurgent group with a "Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse Upon the Jews" slogan.
I'm not a hawk, but I see little political reason to approach the Houthis in the same way the US would respond to attacks from a sovereign nation or legitimate military declarations. The way the Houthis have somehow become "Yemen" in discourse is odd.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 23, 2024, 10:42:12 AM
Land doesn't vote I thought
Neither do Yemenis. ;)
Quote
I mean the answer probably is a ceasefire in Gaza but we know that's not happening at least in the near term.
I agree a ceasefire/end to hostilities needs to come eventually, but I don't think the idea here should be to push for a ceasefire because it may get the Houthis to knock it off. Nor can I buy the argument - not by you, but I've seen it elsewhere - that the Houthis' actions are somehow justified by what's happening in Gaza.
Quotebecause the past several administrations and their incredibly itchy trigger finger have caused incalculable collateral damage with little to no oversight and I (maybe delusional) believe having to go through the formality will at least divert the more reckless actions being debated.
Just because presidential reach has exceeded most oversight doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
I mean, Congress authorized Afghanistan and Iraq, so I'm not sure that's much of a bulwark.
"Israel proposes 2-month pause in Gaza for release of
all hostages."
This will never happen because the Palestinians will never pause until they are completely annihilated, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Quote from: Pakuni on January 23, 2024, 11:57:24 AM
I agree a ceasefire/end to hostilities needs to come eventually, but I don't think the idea here should be to push for a ceasefire because it may get the Houthis to knock it off. Nor can I buy the argument - not by you, but I've seen it elsewhere - that the Houthis' actions are somehow justified by what's happening in Gaza.
Yea, its wrapped up in this "US/West is bad/colonizers/hate brown people/must support the underdog" mindset that so many people seem to be adopting. Hence my statement above that people are mentally jumping to Houthis=Yemen and the US is unnecessarily attacking more poor Middle Eastern people, people who are only trying to support their poor Palestinian brethren. Not realizing (or flat out ignoring) that its all just a bigger Iraninan power play and the Houthis don't give a damn about Gaza or the Palestinians either way
Quote from: JWags85 on January 23, 2024, 11:05:58 AM
I know its not your intention, but I think its given undue legitimacy to a borderline terrorist organization. You call the actual government of Yemen "Saudi puppets" but urge proper protocol and respect for an Iranian funded insurgent group with a "Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse Upon the Jews" slogan.
I'm not a hawk, but I see little political reason to approach the Houthis in the same way the US would respond to attacks from a sovereign nation or legitimate military declarations. The way the Houthis have somehow become "Yemen" in discourse is odd.
They've become Yemen in discussion because they effectively control the country. I have said nothing about giving legitimacy to them, nor should they be lauded. Acknowledging their influence and Power over a sovereign nation even with their terroristic characteristics is to be realistic of their influence on a suffering and starving people's daily lives. Are the Taliban not the ruling party of Afghanistan, to which we have ceded this reality?
To this point, that is why I endorse some sort of restraint and collective discussion about our actions there. Because when you start bombing the Houthis, you are going to also be bombing yet another population of people who have very little to lose.
This discussion here has come up numerous times before and my rebuttal remains, just because it is said one side (My quoted Saudi puppetry) is bad, doesn't mean the other side is good or legitimate. (Prior reference to Hamas atrocities/Israel atrocities)
In the end once again it's about our tendency to disregard our future consequences worldwide for our unrestrained actions.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 23, 2024, 12:29:35 PM
Yea, its wrapped up in this "US/West is bad/colonizers/hate brown people/must support the underdog" mindset that so many people seem to be adopting. Hence my statement above that people are mentally jumping to Houthis=Yemen and the US is unnecessarily attacking more poor Middle Eastern people, people who are only trying to support their poor Palestinian brethren. Not realizing (or flat out ignoring) that its all just a bigger Iraninan power play and the Houthis don't give a damn about Gaza or the Palestinians either way
The US hating brown people is gross oversimplification on a very complex matter for sure. (Though that's a depressingly common reason in our country nonetheless.)
In the end it has always been about not making the situation worse for ourselves. I just think it's cynical to approach it as "they don't care about Gaza anyway so we should continue to bomb them". How has that gone for us recently?
Have we really tried anything different to justify going back to bomb first and foremost? Not really. Acting with the justification of "well they'll just do this anyway" changes deterrent policy into instigation very quickly. Though maybe that was the goal anyway.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 21, 2024, 10:28:32 AM
"Anyone who disagrees with me should be ostracized".
Sounds like a true believer in democracy.
You know that isn't what I said. Your interpretation entirely.
drink some water
Quote from: moomoo on January 21, 2024, 07:40:06 AM
Hards Alumni
Aren't you the fascist who called for complete isolation and discrimination against those who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, even though it disproportionately impacted minorities (which I know matters to you and your white savior complex)?
Didn't you literally call for them to be shamed and prohibited from basic life necessities?
You still feel that way?
People, please go back and look at his posts on the topic. What this man suggested the second he felt he had the moral upper hand with the vaccine is exactly the same mentality of a complete lunatic in power.
He called for them to be publicly shamed.
It showed his true fascist and racist tendencies, so I find it hilarious that he tries to play the race card here.
Waiting for your apology to the nonvaxed, lower income, immigrant community, but instead, I am sure you will deflect because it is really damaging. Actually no, you are so stupid that you may actually double down on your tyrannical position.
People, never let this clown think he has the upper hand. He is a virtue signaling, insecure, pompous moron.
lol man, what crawled up your ass. Please misrepresent what I said more though.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 23, 2024, 02:39:24 PM
lol man, what crawled up your ass. Please misrepresent what I said more though.
This is your exact quote, you liar. Not gonna be able to weasel your way out of it. You thought people would forget. We won't forget the fascists.
Zero misrepresentation.
YOUR EXACT QUOTE:
"Instead of treating the stupid people of the US with kid gloves we need to ostracize them from society, and mock their foolish opinions. There is nothing fascist about that, but then you probably don't understand the meaning of the word. You can be of the opinion that grass is blue, and the sky is green, but no one should take you seriously. Similarly, anyone who is antivax should not be taken seriously."
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 23, 2024, 02:38:04 PM
You know that isn't what I said. Your interpretation entirely.
drink some water
To anyone who wanted to work without getting the vaccine and also live a peaceful life without exclusion from society, that is EXACTLY what you said....as you stated, disagree with me then you should be ostracized.
We won't forget, fascist.
Quote from: moomoo on January 23, 2024, 07:31:15 PM
To anyone who wanted to work without getting the vaccine and also live a peaceful life without exclusion from society, that is EXACTLY what you said....as you stated, disagree with me then you should be ostracized.
We won't forget, fascist.
Strange to have to use this on someone besides Heisey
https://youtu.be/Y7QZgH1eP2o?si=x_YB6RSUUcrxgHaW
Quote from: moomoo on January 23, 2024, 07:25:49 PM
This is your exact quote, you liar. Not gonna be able to weasel your way out of it. You thought people would forget. We won't forget the fascists.
Zero misrepresentation.
YOUR EXACT QUOTE:
"Instead of treating the stupid people of the US with kid gloves we need to ostracize them from society, and mock their foolish opinions. There is nothing fascist about that, but then you probably don't understand the meaning of the word. You can be of the opinion that grass is blue, and the sky is green, but no one should take you seriously. Similarly, anyone who is antivax should not be taken seriously."
lol. Hards I hope you can get over a user named "moomoo," who thinks you're a fascist because he doesn't understand English, won't forget something you posted once.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 23, 2024, 08:34:01 PM
lol. Hards I hope you can get over a user named "moomoo," who thinks you're a fascist because he doesn't understand English, won't forget something you posted once.
Sultan
Ridiculing someone's muscoop name was genius. You really should be proud of that. It really struck a chord. It takes a special person and talent to reach to that level. I tip my hat to you for reaching that depth of quality.
The subordination of individual interests and freedoms for the perceived (and often false) good of the nation is the core of fascism. If you want, I can try to explain it using crayons since that might be more effective for someone like you.
I hope you and Hards enjoy the next fascist rally somewhere.
We won't forget.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 23, 2024, 08:34:01 PM
lol. Hards I hope you can get over a user named "moomoo," who thinks you're a fascist because he doesn't understand English, won't forget something you posted once.
If he gotten over "Fluffy Blue Monster" he can get over anything.
Quote from: moomoo on January 23, 2024, 07:25:49 PM
This is your exact quote, you liar. Not gonna be able to weasel your way out of it. You thought people would forget. We won't forget the fascists.
Zero misrepresentation.
YOUR EXACT QUOTE:
"Instead of treating the stupid people of the US with kid gloves we need to ostracize them from society, and mock their foolish opinions. There is nothing fascist about that, but then you probably don't understand the meaning of the word. You can be of the opinion that grass is blue, and the sky is green, but no one should take you seriously. Similarly, anyone who is antivax should not be taken seriously."
Ah, so you don't understand what fascism is. That tracks. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. But there are fundamental realities in this world. Debating them is pointless. Those people are stupid. That is all I was saying.
But I guess, say whatever you want. I have no idea who you are and why you all of a sudden have some sort of axe to grind with me years later. Kinda weird that you'd pop up and another poster (who called me a jew hater) disappeared. Scoop is a helluva place.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 23, 2024, 07:46:01 PM
Strange to have to use this on someone besides Heisey
https://youtu.be/Y7QZgH1eP2o?si=x_YB6RSUUcrxgHaW
Oh, it isn't strange, he is mentally ill.
Quote from: moomoo on January 23, 2024, 09:10:10 PM
Sultan
Ridiculing someone's muscoop name was genius. You really should be proud of that. It really struck a chord. It takes a special person and talent to reach to that level. I tip my hat to you for reaching that depth of quality.
The subordination of individual interests and freedoms for the perceived (and often false) good of the nation is the core of fascism. If you want, I can try to explain it using crayons since that might be more effective for someone like you.
I hope you and Hards enjoy the next fascist rally somewhere.
We won't forget.
Bro, find a new hobby. You're just being another weird stalker. I have enough of those around these parts.
Quote from: moomoo on January 23, 2024, 09:10:10 PM
Sultan
Ridiculing someone's muscoop name was genius. You really should be proud of that. It really struck a chord. It takes a special person and talent to reach to that level. I tip my hat to you for reaching that depth of quality.
The subordination of individual interests and freedoms for the perceived (and often false) good of the nation is the core of fascism. If you want, I can try to explain it using crayons since that might be more effective for someone like you.
I hope you and Hards enjoy the next fascist rally somewhere.
We won't forget.
lol. That's not what fascism is.
And good luck on the not forgetting thing. I know I don't really care and I doubt Hards does either.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on January 23, 2024, 10:06:09 PMKinda weird that you'd pop up and another poster (who called me a jew hater) disappeared. Scoop is a helluva place.
Good call. Weird dude.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 23, 2024, 12:26:49 PM
"Israel proposes 2-month pause in Gaza for release of
all hostages."
This will never happen because the Palestinians will never pause until they are completely annihilated, hey?
#fromtherivertothesea
#neveragain
Tough loss for Pelosi in the New Hampshire GOP primary last night. Your favorite unapologetic supporter of antisemites looks to be cruising to the nomination.
At least this clarifies some of the casualty figures. Not in a good way though.
https://x.com/yuval_abraham/status/1750123648533324158?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on January 24, 2024, 10:38:27 AM
At least this clarifies some of the casualty figures. Not in a good way though.
https://x.com/yuval_abraham/status/1750123648533324158?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
An example of "how to show you committed war crimes, without actually saying you committed war crimes."
ICJ preliminary ruling states Israel's actions could constitute genocide.
https://twitter.com/tparsi/status/1750862839760261566?t=Xfh7kzmbV0ufYlzNr_MOFQ&s=19
The antisemite Musk is using his money-bleeding social-media site to lie about election fraud in the United States.
Quote from: MU82 on January 26, 2024, 07:25:33 AM
The antisemite Musk is using his money-bleeding social-media site to lie about election fraud in the United States.
So you would say that this post is relevant to the Israel-Gaza conflict because you put "The antisemite" in front of Musk, correct?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 26, 2024, 07:16:15 AM
ICJ preliminary ruling states Israel's actions could constitute genocide.
https://twitter.com/tparsi/status/1750862839760261566?t=Xfh7kzmbV0ufYlzNr_MOFQ&s=19
The fact they made any ruling against Israel, where there was intense political pressure from the US to do the opposite, is pretty damning.
Given the additional reports of widespread civilians (women and children) being shot while waiving white flags and surrendering, is also damning.
Don't forget bulldozing and tearing up graveyards, and the reports of targeting very low level Hamas members in their own homes with complete disregard for collateral damage, and a lot of Israel's actions are the types of things one criticizes Hamas for as a terrorist organization.
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2024, 09:55:15 AM
The fact they made any ruling against Israel, where there was intense political pressure from the US to do the opposite, is pretty damning.
Given the additional reports of widespread civilians (women and children) being shot while waiving white flags and surrendering, is also damning.
Don't forget bulldozing and tearing up graveyards, and the reports of targeting very low level Hamas members in their own homes with complete disregard for collateral damage, and a lot of Israel's actions are the types of things one criticizes Hamas for as a terrorist organization.
The videos I have seen of IDF members taking tiktoks and selfies and such is not a good look
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 26, 2024, 10:58:05 AM
The videos I have seen of IDF members taking tiktoks and selfies and such is not a good look
I think it's a miscalculation by them, thinking it would humanize them instead of a general reaction of "what on earth is wrong with you?"
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2024, 09:55:15 AM
Given the additional reports of widespread civilians (women and children) being shot while waiving white flags and surrendering, is also damning.
Is there any legitimate substantiation of this? Cause the 2-3 times Ive seen it cited on X, it was misinformation about attacks that Hamas made on fleeing civilians.
Israel's lax approach to collateral damage is certainly not in question, but stuff like the above seems tenuous at best and often in the realm of the much discussed hospital "bombing"
Quote from: JWags85 on January 26, 2024, 01:03:53 PM
Is there any legitimate substantiation of this? Cause the 2-3 times Ive seen it cited on X, it was misinformation about attacks that Hamas made on fleeing civilians.
Israel's lax approach to collateral damage is certainly not in question, but stuff like the above seems tenuous at best and often in the realm of the much discussed hospital "bombing"
It's all quite easy to find if you go looking.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 26, 2024, 09:11:18 AM
So you would say that this post is relevant to the Israel-Gaza conflict because you put "The antisemite" in front of Musk, correct?
His previous post was a shot at Trump re the New Hampshire primary - again, totally irrelevant to the topic, but he has to meet a minimum daily requirement of anti orange haired, Hitler like monster posts - so relevance no matta.
A moderator - not me - changed the title of the thread to say it's about pointing out who is antisemitic.
It's also fun to point out the hypocrisy of a few gentile Scoopers calling those who don't agree with them about Israel "antisemites" even as they condone, excuse, justify or bend the knee to powerful and dangerous antisemites.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 26, 2024, 03:27:38 PM
His previous post was a shot at Trump re the New Hampshire primary - again, totally irrelevant to the topic, but he has to meet a minimum daily requirement of anti orange haired, Hitler like monster posts - so relevance no matta.
+1 Sometimes I feel as if I know what he is going to post before he posts it. ;)
Quote from: MU82 on January 26, 2024, 03:55:54 PM
A moderator - not me - changed the title of the thread to say it's about pointing out who is antisemitic.
It's also fun to point out the hypocrisy of a few gentile Scoopers calling those who don't agree with them about Israel "antisemites" even as they condone, excuse, justify or bend the knee to powerful and dangerous antisemites.
There comes a point where everyone gets it. Especially when you are bringing it up completely outside of the context of the topic's intent.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 26, 2024, 01:03:53 PM
Is there any legitimate substantiation of this? Cause the 2-3 times Ive seen it cited on X, it was misinformation about attacks that Hamas made on fleeing civilians.
Israel's lax approach to collateral damage is certainly not in question, but stuff like the above seems tenuous at best and often in the realm of the much discussed hospital "bombing"
Lines up with British reporting and general movement of troops.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna135419
At least 26k are dead though. There's no doubt a lot of jockeying on the "how" narrative these days but I wouldn't call the above "tenuous at best" especially with the eye popping casualty numbers supplementing NBC's reporting on incidents like this. There's misinformation but at a certainly not all of it is such.
You've mentioned twitter's lack of reliability many times here, maybe it's to the point where things being cited as misinformation could in fact be...misinformation.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 26, 2024, 01:03:53 PM
Is there any legitimate substantiation of this? Cause the 2-3 times Ive seen it cited on X, it was misinformation about attacks that Hamas made on fleeing civilians.
Israel's lax approach to collateral damage is certainly not in question, but stuff like the above seems tenuous at best and often in the realm of the much discussed hospital "bombing"
There have been numerous reports and videos. Including one covered by CNN (and verified) today of a grandmother being shot while walking out of their home with her grandson while waiving white flags.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl/index.html
(https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl/index.html)
The IDF murdered people in a Catholic Church previously that was well documented, almost in real time by a family member of a British MP, that was condemned by the Pope.
And these are not isolated incidents, they are the ones caught on film and able to be sent out, a lot of the other cases, are just eyewitness reports.
I'll also add that the desecration of burial grounds is extremely well vetted.
It is all quite honestly disgusting, no other way to say it.
But it also is the IDF playing into Hamas' goals. These atrocities are being recognized by most of the rest of the world, and even those that are Israeli supporters are seeing that enough is enough, and I'm starting to find it hard to see an outcome now that doesn't involve a pathway to a Palestinian State.
Y'all are right. I'll take a long break from this thread unless I have something specific to add about the situation in Israel (such as a report from my brother and SIL).
Apologies for going overboard.
Harvard will not be ok, aina?
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=028de6717_134d122
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 26, 2024, 06:47:32 PM
Harvard will not be ok, aina?
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=028de6717_134d122
Yes it will be. Sorry
Huh, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 26, 2024, 07:29:26 PM
Huh, hey?
We know you want it to fail but it's been around for centuries and will be here for centuries after we're dead and it'll thrive.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 26, 2024, 06:47:32 PM
Harvard will not be ok, aina?
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=028de6717_134d122
You would like a guy who downplays genocide when it's politically expedient.
"Green has provoked controversy with articles on Jewish identity, criticising Joe Biden's agenda as "bad for the Jews"[26] Aaronovitch took special issue with Green criticising Biden for formally recognising the Armenian genocide, since it damaged relations with Turkey"
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 26, 2024, 06:47:32 PM
Harvard will not be ok, aina?
https://wallstreetjournal-ny.newsmemory.com/?publink=028de6717_134d122
lol. Sure.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on January 26, 2024, 10:18:48 PM
lol. Sure.
My favorite part of that rubbish, was that Boeing would still have its engineers, but Harvard would only have professors.
Let's just pick one of those professors. How about George Church, who has founded or cofounded 50 biotech companies pioneering our ability to do genetics and almost single handedly has pioneered almost the entirety of next generation sequencing and the rest of the developments.
He's not alone, the number of companies that Harvard professors have founded is ridiculous, and if you'd make Harvard, and the related companies founded by its professors publicly traded, it would easily be the most valuable company in the world.
But yeah...they just have professors.
There are so many errors that it would take me all weekend to lay them out but I will address one: "Market forces are closing liberal-arts colleges whose ideological mania outstrips their endowments and brands."
The vast majority of liberal arts colleges are closing because they are poor, largely rural and have trouble attracting students in a declining demographic. I mean do you think Cardinal Stritch had an "ideological mania?" And that's why it closed? Just laughable.
I know people from Holy Family up in Manitowoc and at Iowa Wesleyan both of which closed in the last few years. If I suggested that they closed due to DEI and an "ideological mania," they would look at me as if I had a hole in my head.
This is what happens when you wake up every day to fight a culture war. You lose sight of how the world actually functions. And that is why Harvard is going to be just fine.
Penn is doomed
https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/penn-sas-alumnus-vagelos-strengthen-science-research-and-education
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/right-wing-israeli-ministers-join-thousands-event-calling-countrys-res-rcna135863
Ethnic cleansing
Why is the IDF desecrating gazan cemeteries?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 01, 2024, 04:23:04 PM
Why is the IDF desecrating gazan cemeteries?
Plagiarism at US higher learning institutions
https://www.vice.com/en/article/ak384p/idf-israel-run-telegram-72-virgins-psyop
QuoteRepresentatives from the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) admitted to running a notoriously violent and racist Telegram channel following an investigation from Haaretz.
On October 9, 2023, the Telegram channel "72 Virgins—Uncensored" started posting gore-filled photos and videos from the frontlines of Israel's war on Gaza. An investigation from Haaretz revealed in December that the Israeli military ran the channel. The IDF initially denied the accusation but reversed course after an internal investigation, Haaretz reported on Sunday. It's an unsurprising revelation that highlights the grotesque appeal of Telegram, and how governments increasingly use the platform to spread propaganda.
Videos and images on the channel included the dead bodies of Palestinian civilians and resistance fighters alongside racist text. "Exterminating the roaches...exterminating the Hamas rats...Share this beauty," one post said above pictures of captured Palestinians. Another post showed an Israeli soldier dipping their gun into a liquid. "What a man!!!! Lubricates bullets with lard. You won't get your virgins," the text on the video said, according to a translation from Haaretz.
Pretty one sided discussion here these days. The facade has been falling away eh
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on February 05, 2024, 08:16:48 PM
Pretty one sided discussion here these days. The facade has been falling away eh
Well, their leaders have rejected both aid to Israel and strengthening the U.S. border - even though a vast majority of Republicans voted for it - because the previous president threatened them with retribution if they give the current president any "wins." Politics over country.
Meanwhile, they seem fine about giving Ukraine to Putin, a blood-thirsty dictator who would wipe America off the face of the earth if he could.
Quote from: MU82 on February 06, 2024, 08:02:21 AM
Well, their leaders have rejected both aid to Israel and strengthening the U.S. border - even though a vast majority of Republicans voted for it - because the previous president threatened them with retribution if they give the current president any "wins." Politics over country.
Meanwhile, they seem fine about giving Ukraine to Putin, a blood-thirsty dictator who would wipe America off the face of the earth if he could.
Quote from: MU82 on January 26, 2024, 06:44:38 PM
Y'all are right. I'll take a long break from this thread unless I have something specific to add about the situation in Israel
Your "long break" lasted all of about ten days, and then you came back to post something completely off-topic.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 06, 2024, 08:17:44 AM
Your "long break" lasted all of about ten days, and then you came back to post something completely off-topic.
It wasn't off-topic at all. There's a bipartisan aid bill for Israel on the table, and Ukraine aid and border policy is in the same bill. Which, just as I said, is being torpedoed.
But thanks, Mr. Scoop Policeman.
Quote from: MU82 on February 06, 2024, 09:23:46 AM
It wasn't off-topic at all. There's a bipartisan aid bill for Israel on the table, and Ukraine aid and border policy is in the same bill. Which, just as I said, is being torpedoed.
But thanks, Mr. Scoop Policeman.
::) ::) ::) We all know that's why you introduced politics (yet again) into a topic where it doesn't belong.
So much for your "long break." It was nice while it lasted I guess.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 06, 2024, 09:33:08 AM
::) ::) ::) We all know that's why you introduced politics (yet again) into a topic where it doesn't belong.
So much for your "long break." It was nice while it lasted I guess.
Cool, copper.
Quote from: MU82 on February 06, 2024, 10:04:44 AM
Cool, copper.
Can both of you please return to plagiarism at Ivy League schools?
Interesting. economic consequences of this conflict appearing more and more frequently.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-09/ty-article/.premium/moodys-downgrades-israels-credit-rating-for-first-time-in-countrys-history/0000018d-8eb1-d57f-a1ef-bebde2450000
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on February 09, 2024, 04:44:07 PM
Interesting. economic consequences of this conflict appearing more and more frequently.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-09/ty-article/.premium/moodys-downgrades-israels-credit-rating-for-first-time-in-countrys-history/0000018d-8eb1-d57f-a1ef-bebde2450000
McDonald's reported Q4 earnings earlier this week and the CEO blamed the Middle East war in part for the company's lagging international sales.
12,300 children killed and counting
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on February 12, 2024, 01:53:21 PM
12,300 children killed and counting
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b
It's fine. Once Hamas is eliminated fully they can all just return to their homes and grow up with normal lives.
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on February 12, 2024, 01:53:21 PM
12,300 children killed and counting
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b
But how many of them supported Hamas?
Senate passes bipartisan aid package for Israel and Ukraine. Most observers believe it will die in the House.
Quote from: MU82 on February 13, 2024, 10:19:30 AM
Senate passes bipartisan aid package for Israel and Ukraine. Most observers believe it will die in the House.
The esteemed speaker says he can't move it forward because it doesn't include legislation addressing the border.
The same legislation addressing the border that he killed last week.
Sigh.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 13, 2024, 10:35:40 AM
The esteemed speaker says he can't move it forward because it doesn't include legislation addressing the border.
The same legislation addressing the border that he killed last week.
Sigh.
But that's what it is all about. Not getting anything done and then saying that Biden can't get anything done. The low info voters eat that crap up.
Quote from: MU82 on February 13, 2024, 10:19:30 AM
Senate passes bipartisan aid package for Israel and Ukraine. Most observers believe it will die in the House.
No money for US citizens for college or healthcare or social security or Medicaid or Medicare or...?
How is this aid gonna be paid for?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 12:34:38 PM
No money for US citizens for college or healthcare or social security or Medicaid or Medicare or...?
How is this aid gonna be paid for?
Continued American hegemony in ME and our ability to project military power in the area.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 13, 2024, 12:39:15 PM
Continued American hegemony in ME and our ability to project military power in the area.
How does that benefit the US citizens?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 12:54:09 PM
How does that benefit the US citizens?
That's never been the goal of the US government.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 12:54:09 PM
How does that benefit the US citizens?
Cheap oil. It may sound cynical, but that doesn't make it less important.
One might suggest that it's possible for the US government to address iboth is foreign policy interests and its domestic needs. Not saying it succeeds, bot one does not preclude the other.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 13, 2024, 12:56:26 PM
That's never been the goal of the US government.
Sad.
What has been the goal?
Quote from: Pakuni on February 13, 2024, 01:15:40 PM
Cheap oil. It may sound cynical, but that doesn't make it less important.
One might suggest that it's possible for the US government to address iboth is foreign policy interests and its domestic needs. Not saying it succeeds, bot one does not preclude the other.
Cheap oil? Isn't the US producing enough on its own to support ourselves?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 02:56:12 PM
Sad.
What has been the goal?
In short, enriching the ruling class for the last century or so. Globalization to maintain capitalism's domination.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 02:57:38 PM
Cheap oil? Isn't the US producing enough on its own to support ourselves?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/brand-connect/wp/enterprise/why-importing-and-exporting-oil-makes-sense/
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 02:57:38 PM
Cheap oil? Isn't the US producing enough on its own to support ourselves?
Yes, but if you throw a stone into a pond it causes ripples. There is a global supply and demand which influences prices. Anything that upsets this balance or any spike in prices causes global instability and increases the power of OPEC to hold the world hostage.
Just because we can provide for ourselves doesn't mean that the price of oil won't rise globally. And because the oil companies in the US are not nationalized they are not required to sell their oil to the US buyers. They'll sell on the open market for the best price they can attain.
Appreciate the explanations.
Going back to my OP.
How are the billions in US aid to Ukraine and Israel going to be paid for?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 03:05:02 PM
Appreciate the explanations.
Going back to my OP.
How are the billions in US aid to Ukraine and Israel going to be paid for?
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
They'll just add it to that as a rounding error :P
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 03:05:02 PM
Appreciate the explanations.
Going back to my OP.
How are the billions in US aid to Ukraine and Israel going to be paid for?
Tax dollars, it would assume.
It's worth noting that much of the aid to Ukraine so far has come in the form outdated (at least what the Pentagon considers outdated) military equipment. We're not writing them checks.
It would be fair to point out that we're then spending money to replenish our military stock with modern weaponry, so there's undoubtedly a cost. But there is some benefit to American taxpayers, beyond just the benefit of not giving Putin free rein to steamroll his neighbors.
Similar with Israel. Most of the aid we send them comes in the form of grants which they must use to purchase items and services from American companies. Again, there's obviously a cost, but it also comes with some benefit to U.S. taxpayers.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 13, 2024, 03:13:39 PM
Tax dollars, it would assume.
It's worth noting that much of the aid to Ukraine so far has come in the form outdated (at least what the Pentagon considers outdated) military equipment. We're not writing them checks.
It would be fair to point out that we're then spending money to replenish our military stock with modern weaponry, so there's undoubtedly a cost. But there is some benefit to American taxpayers, beyond just the benefit of not giving Putin free rein to steamroll his neighbors.
Similar with Israel. Most of the aid we send them comes in the form of grants which they must use to purchase items and services from American companies. Again, there's obviously a cost, but it also comes with some benefit to U.S. taxpayers.
I sincerely doubt those American companies are going to pass on any significant amount of money they might make from these deals
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 03:05:02 PM
Appreciate the explanations.
Going back to my OP.
How are the billions in US aid to Ukraine and Israel going to be paid for?
Tax cuts
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 03:19:10 PM
I sincerely doubt those American companies are going to pass on any significant amount of money they might make from these deals
The benefit he's referring to is employment opportunities for American arms workers. It's a furtherance of the expansion of the MI Complex. But jobs buy votes (indirectly). The workers use that money to buy crap and pay taxes along the way. Think of it as a stimulus package. A horrific one, but a stimulus package nonetheless.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on February 13, 2024, 03:22:09 PM
The benefit he's referring to is employment opportunities for American arms workers. It's a furtherance of the expansion of the MI Complex. But jobs buy votes (indirectly). The workers use that money to buy crap and pay taxes along the way. Think of it as a stimulus package. A horrific one, but a stimulus package nonetheless.
Expansion of the MI complex sounds great
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 03:19:10 PM
I sincerely doubt those American companies are going to pass on any significant amount of money they might make from these deals
What do you mean by "pass on?"
They have employees who benefit. Vendors who benefit. Communities that benefit when their residents are employed and when local companies prosper. Shareholders who benefit. They all pay taxes.
I'm not arguing that aid to Israel and Ukraine is some kind of windfall for the U.S. taxpayer. But you started the discussion asking how Americans benefit. These are some of the ways how.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 13, 2024, 03:24:41 PM
Expansion of the MI complex sounds great
Sacrifices must be made at the alter for this all to continue. Sometimes it's money, sometimes it's babies. Usually, it's both.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 13, 2024, 03:28:15 PM
What do you mean by "pass on?"
They have employees who benefit. Vendors who benefit. Communities that benefit when their residents are employed and when local companies prosper. Shareholders who benefit. They all pay taxes.
I'm not arguing that aid to Israel and Ukraine is some kind of windfall for the U.S. taxpayer. But you started the discussion asking how Americans benefit. These are some of the ways how.
You're correct
Quote from: Pakuni on February 13, 2024, 03:13:39 PM
Tax dollars, it would assume.
It's worth noting that much of the aid to Ukraine so far has come in the form outdated (at least what the Pentagon considers outdated) military equipment. We're not writing them checks.
It would be fair to point out that we're then spending money to replenish our military stock with modern weaponry
I've seen estimates that roughly 30% of this $60B for Ukraine is for replenishment of US supplies.
The whole world - including America - benefits when Putin isn't simply handed countries he wants to dominate and/or destroy.
https://x.com/wideofthepost/status/1757776754821763250?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg
Who's to blame for anti-Semitism? Jews, of course. So says Candace Owens.
Will the Daily Wire be OK?
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/candace-owens-accuses-political-jews-of-fueling-anti-semitism-vile-dishonest-manipulative-people/
So then followin' that line of logic, Blacks are responsible for racism, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2024, 11:26:01 AM
So then followin' that line of logic, Blacks are responsible for racism, aina?
So you are 1) saying that Candace Owens has a "line of logic", and 2) agreeing with her that Jews are responsible for antisemitism??
C'mon man, crazy rhetoric is an epidemic for which there is no vaccine. Yet, the idiots will believe it, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on February 15, 2024, 11:03:19 AM
Who's to blame for anti-Semitism? Jews, of course. So says Candace Owens.
Will the Daily Wire be OK?
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/candace-owens-accuses-political-jews-of-fueling-anti-semitism-vile-dishonest-manipulative-people/
The Daily Wire promoting anti-semitism ought to end the Daily Wire but it's part of the protected class
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2024, 11:48:48 AM
C'mon man, crazy rhetoric is an epidemic for which there is no vaccine. Yet, the idiots will believe it, hey?
Truer words have rarely been spoken.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2024, 11:48:48 AM
C'mon man, crazy rhetoric is an epidemic for which there is no vaccine. Yet, the idiots will believe it, hey?
Like Obama secretly being in charge at the White House?
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on February 15, 2024, 11:33:46 AM
So you are 1) saying that Candace Owens has a "line of logic", and 2) agreeing with her that Jews are responsible for antisemitism??
But..., she had Jewish 'friends'.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2024, 11:48:48 AM
C'mon man, crazy rhetoric is an epidemic for which there is no vaccine. Yet, the idiots will believe it, hey?
This is too easy.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 15, 2024, 11:53:00 AM
The Daily Wire promoting anti-semitism ought to end the Daily Wire but it's part of the protected class
The bizarre-ness of this stance coming from Ben Shapiro's site is something else.
Quote from: JWags85 on February 15, 2024, 02:41:20 PM
The bizarre-ness of this stance coming from Ben Shapiro's site is something else.
Pawns or something
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on December 18, 2023, 05:42:27 PM
What isn't being "investigated and reported?" I've seen plenty of reports about Hunter Biden from all types of media. There just isn't a lot there.
Lmao
https://apnews.com/article/hunter-biden-burisma-fbi-informant-lying-6969656f6012780a23a4b8841ce2689b
Quote from: Plaque Lives Matter! on February 15, 2024, 05:11:19 PM
Lmao
https://apnews.com/article/hunter-biden-burisma-fbi-informant-lying-6969656f6012780a23a4b8841ce2689b
lol
Tucker's glorious country at work again
https://www.yahoo.com/news/russias-prison-says-imprisoned-opposition-113728743.html
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 16, 2024, 07:06:23 AM
Tucker's glorious country at work again
https://www.yahoo.com/news/russias-prison-says-imprisoned-opposition-113728743.html
Leadership requires killing people.
Quote from: TSmith34, Inc. on February 15, 2024, 12:51:02 PM
Like Obama secretly being in charge at the White House?
oh, it's no secret, it's he and mike. they never let go. between hussein, mike and cankles they have the swamp filled up nicely for years to come. who do you think set up the dossier that they lied about for 3 years or more if you're still counting. urinalism is dead
Been a while since I checked in here. Probably why the site went down. Scoop out.