Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Galway Eagle]

Yea, but then if the Levant is "white" or "white passing" then Palestinians would also be white.  That's the absurdity of thinking that globally people favor Israelis over Palestinians cause of not caring about brown people vs white people.  This dumb idea that most Israelis look like Jared Greenblatt from Syosset when it's far more likely they are olive skinned and look MUCH closer to what people think Palestinians look like.

Yeah sounds like we were attempting at the same point I just misinterpreted what you were saying. Carry on

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.

Who said I thought that. This was about what others think.

[GB Warrior]

Imagine thinking majority of Israelis are white and/or non-brown.

No kidding. Israelis are a diverse bunch except for Jesus, who was white.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Who said I thought that. This was about what others think.

Case in point.

https://amp.dw.com/en/every-dark-skin-in-israel-is-now-a-target/a-18802220

But noted that the meme was interpreted as suggesting Israel White Palestinian Dark, I apologize if it came off that way if so.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

No kidding. Israelis are a diverse bunch except for Jesus, who was white.

White and ripped as f***

[Skatastrophy]

White and ripped as f***

A literal ubermensch

[JWags85]

Case in point.

https://amp.dw.com/en/every-dark-skin-in-israel-is-now-a-target/a-18802220

But noted that the meme was interpreted as suggesting Israel White Palestinian Dark, I apologize if it came off that way if so.

Appreciated the clarification, that's definitely how it read.  But also, I was speaking to a lot of posts that echoed similar.  How people only care about when Israelis die because they aren't brown.

Which in less dire times would actually make me chuckle, considering my half Israeli nephew plays basketball outside in the summer for a few hours with a shooting sleeve and comes in with a mean tan line, or his sister spends the day at the park in sandals and comes home with a sandal tan.  By late June in NJ, nobody would confuse them for "white".

[21Jumpstreet]

Sent to me by my brother in law, I found it worth the read. Candidly, I have never read anything else on this site, do not know anything about the author. I did appreciate the attempt to discuss a delicate and nuanced situation in an unbiased way.

https://www.readtangle.com/israel-attacks-hamas-palestine-war/

[Uncle Rico]

White and ripped as f***

And would support 2A

[The Sultan]

Sent to me by my brother in law, I found it worth the read. Candidly, I have never read anything else on this site, do not know anything about the author. I did appreciate the attempt to discuss a delicate and nuanced situation in an unbiased way.

https://www.readtangle.com/israel-attacks-hamas-palestine-war/

I agree it was by and large good. However, this is what I dispute and what I think is the root of these problems: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."

I think we have to be careful about "historical claims."  Groups of people have been migrating to and from various places since humankind first existed.  Remember that the vast majority of Scoopers are now sitting somewhere where someone else has a much more recent "historical claim" than the Jews have over Israel.

Don't get me wrong, Israel has a LEGAL right to exist within its currently recognized borders (not including the West Bank and Gaza) under the norms of international law. And it has a right to protect those borders.

[MU82]

As the WSJ, Washington Post and others point out, the hostage situation is just about unprecedented and makes Israel's strategy going forward difficult to plot.

Historically, Israel has done whatever it can to protect citizens who have been taken hostage. If they have an all-out assault of Gaza, not only will Hamas follow through on threats to kill hostages one at a time while live-streaming the executions, but Israel's forces almost surely would kill some hostages during their attacks.

How much sacrifice of its own people is Israel willing to say is "worth" it?

[4everwarriors]

Worth it? No question this is a fight for survival as a nation. Unfortunately, if it comes to this decision, I think you know the answer, hey?

[MuggsyB]

I agree it was by and large good. However, this is what I dispute and what I think is the root of these problems: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."

I think we have to be careful about "historical claims."  Groups of people have been migrating to and from various places since humankind first existed.  Remember that the vast majority of Scoopers are now sitting somewhere where someone else has a much more recent "historical claim" than the Jews have over Israel.

Don't get me wrong, Israel has a LEGAL right to exist within its currently recognized borders (not including the West Bank and Gaza) under the norms of international law. And it has a right to protect those borders.

The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy.  18 years ago.  Where the F have you been?  There aren't Jews there dude.  And what have the Palestinians done since?  Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map.  The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres. 

[MUBurrow]

No question this is a fight for survival as a nation.

4ever, can you expound on this?  I fully acknowledge and agree that they are fighting terrorists who expressly state that their goal is to eliminate Israel as a nation.  But that is different than this fight being a "fight for survival as a nation" - no?  Isn't that akin to saying that the US response to 9/11 was "a fight for survival as a nation"?

[MU82]

Worth it? No question this is a fight for survival as a nation. Unfortunately, if it comes to this decision, I think you know the answer, hey?

I'm glad I don't have to make the decision and don't have to tell some grieving mother, "Sorry, but we had to let Hamas behead your 4-year-old daughter, live-streamed on X. We had a war to win."

[4everwarriors]

Rather simple...if the terrorists are victorious in driving Israel off the face of the Earth, there is no more Israel nor will there ever be another homeland. That puts Jews in peril throughout the world. Hitler showed what that ultimately could result in, hey?

[MUBurrow]

Rather simple...if the terrorists are victorious in driving Israel off the face of the Earth, there is no more Israel nor will there ever be another homeland. That puts Jews in peril throughout the world. Hitler showed what that ultimately could result in, hey?

Sure, I agree.  But don't the power dynamics and global political realities play a role in how that threat should be perceived and responded to?  If Al-Qaeda had succeeded in their stated goals with respect to the US, we could say there would be no more America.  And while the US was of course entitled to a strong response to their horrendous violence, the American response also had to be contextualized in that there was no realistic chance of Al-Qaeda succeeding in that goal.  Hamas just threw everything they had at Israel.  The results were horrendous, and Israel should and must respond strongly.  But the threat from Hamas in Gaza is not existential.  Israel has (to its credit) positioned itself at the big kid table of nations, and despite horrendous historical oppression, that precludes contextualizing a threat from terrorist criminals as an existential one.

[MU82]

Rather simple...if the terrorists are victorious in driving Israel off the face of the Earth, there is no more Israel nor will there ever be another homeland. That puts Jews in peril throughout the world. Hitler showed what that ultimately could result in, hey?

I think I mostly agree with this, though thankfully it's highly unlikely that the terrorists are going to succeed here.

Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?

[Uncle Rico]

I think I mostly agree with this, though thankfully it's highly unlikely that the terrorists are going to succeed here.

Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?

More political points scored not defending that democracy under the guise of America First

[The Sultan]

The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy.  18 years ago.  Where the F have you been?  There aren't Jews there dude.  And what have the Palestinians done since?  Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map.  The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres. 

No, "the Jews" didn't give Gaza to the Palestinians.  The Israeli army removed their military from what was legally not considered part of Israel.

And really that's not my point. My point is that everyone is stating that they somehow have a right to a piece of land because the ethno-religious group of which they are a member used to live there. And I don't think that should ever be the correct way to determine sovereignty.

I can use another example. Mount Ararat is considered a national symbol and a holy place to Armenians. It is on the flag of Armenia and can been seen quite clearly from its capital. Yet the mountain is in Turkey and Turkey does not allow Armenians to access the mountain.  Should Armenia be allowed to annex the mountain based on this "historical claim?"  Of course not.

Another. For centuries the city of Konigsberg was a German city. Prior to Berlin, it was the capital of the Teutonic Order and of Prussia. After WWII, the Soviets forced the Germans out, Russified the city and renamed it Kaliningrad.  Do todays Germans have a "historical claim" to the city? Nope.

[Uncle Rico]

No, "the Jews" didn't give Gaza to the Palestinians.  The Israeli army removed their military from what was legally not considered part of Israel.

And really that's not my point. My point is that everyone is stating that they somehow have a right to a piece of land because the ethno-religious group of which they are a member used to live there. And I don't think that should ever be the correct way to determine sovereignty.

I can use another example. Mount Ararat is considered a national symbol and a holy place to Armenians. It is on the flag of Armenia and can been seen quite clearly from its capital. Yet the mountain is in Turkey and Turkey does not allow Armenians to access the mountain.  Should Armenia be allowed to annex the mountain based on this "historical claim?"  Of course not.

Another. For centuries the city of Konigsberg was a German city. Prior to Berlin, it was the capital of the Teutonic Order and of Prussia. After WWII, the Soviets forced the Germans out, Russified the city and renamed it Kaliningrad.  Do todays Germans have a "historical claim" to the city? Nope.

Someone ask the Cherokee nation about historical land claims

[MUBurrow]

Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?

Is your argument that becuase there are Jews in Ukraine, we are duty bound to see these very different situations identically?

[Uncle Rico]

Is your argument that becuase there are Jews in Ukraine, we are duty bound to see these very different situations identically?

The argument is the same.  Fight evil and protect democracy across the globe.

[MUBurrow]

The argument is the same.  Fight evil and protect democracy across the globe.

Very neocon.

[MU82]

Is your argument that becuase there are Jews in Ukraine, we are duty bound to see these very different situations identically?

Actually, that there are tens of thousands of Jews trying to live peacefully in Ukraine is irrelevant to my argument.

Ukraine is a free nation and a U.S. ally in an incredibly important/strategic part of Europe. Our sworn enemy - a Hitler-wannabe who would love nothing more than to see America cease to exist - tried to (and is still trying to) take it by force. Why do so many of the same people who say Israel must be protected at all costs shrug their shoulders at a terrorist who wants to impose his evil will on Ukraine?