Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Pakuni]

100% correct.  You should be ashamed of yourself Pakumi.  Disgusting.to read your views.

What are my views?

[Jockey]

I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat.  But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.

Except Israel does target civilians both militarily and through government policy.

I can't blame Israel for their reaction to this attack, though. I just push back on the idea that Hamas attacks civilians while Israel targets only military sites.

Both sides share plenty of blame. Hamas is just more deplorable because it's leaders know that Palestinians will suffer way more from their actions than the Israelis will.

[Pakuni]

I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat.  But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.

Justifying Hamas' actions here in any way - whether because Israel also has done bad things, or anything else - is gross. We agree.
My point of contention, if you want to call it that, is any insinuation that Israel's killing of civilians is merely an unfortunate accident or collateral damage. If you're targeting civilian sites like housing and hospitals, then civilian deaths can't be accidental.

[MUBurrow]

I fully agree that it's biased or naive to believe Israel wears a white hat.  But the fairly frequent response to Hamas' attack that was specifically targeting Israeli citizens, wholly separate and independent from military sites/targets, with the "Israel also targets civilians" is a false equivalency at best, and a gross justification at worst.

FWIW its also a false equivalency to analogize the Israeli military : Israel :: Hamas : Palestine

[JWags85]

Both sides share plenty of blame. Hamas is just more deplorable because it's leaders know that Palestinians will suffer way more from their actions than the Israelis will.

This is a good call out.  Hames =/= Palestine.  And Palestinians are just a puppet for Hamas.  Which makes this so incredibly difficult to navigate.  Hamas would sacrifice the life of every Palestinian civilian if it meant Israel's demise.  A free Palestine is as much a freedom from Hamas/Hezbollah as it is a freedom from Israel.  While much focus is placed on the latter, it simply cannot occur without the former.

Justifying Hamas' actions here in any way - whether because Israel also has done bad things, or anything else - is gross. We agree.
My point of contention, if you want to call it that, is any insinuation that Israel's killing of civilians is merely an unfortunate accident or collateral damage. If you're targeting civilian sites like housing and hospitals, then civilian deaths can't be accidental.

I don't think its an unfortunate accident, but I just think the aim is exceedingly different.  If Hamas was launching their attacks from Egypt or Syria, with no presence in Gaza, IDF wouldn't be blasting civilians in Gaza right now for the hell of it.  Look at the difference in deaths year by year in Gaza vs the West Bank.

Tangentially related, its a bit raw so maybe now is not the time, but this situation makes me recommend that everyone should watch Fauda.  Granted its an Israeli show co-created by a former IDF Special Forces soldier, but it gives a fairly intricate look into the nature of the daily military conflict, casts a fair eye to the suffering of Palestinians caught in the middle, and just how grey it all is.

FWIW its also a false equivalency to analogize the Israeli military : Israel :: Hamas : Palestine

I would agree, except that Hamas is the majority elected ruling party in Palestine.  And they have an outsized impact on everything regarding the Palestinian people.  And many pro-Palestinian groups support Hamas' terrorist efforts on Palestine's "behalf"

[dgies9156]

One interesting perspective on the entire Middle East mess came from a friend who is Muslim and has lived in both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. His late father was a professional whose main client was the Saudi royal family.

First things first: he absolutely hated Israel and repreatedly wished for that nation's demise -- a common thread in the Muslim world.

Secondly, his feeling was that many younger Muslims looked at Israel with a sense of envy. It's one of the few places in the middle east with no oil. Yet, Israel is comparatively affluent, entrepreneurial, democratic and (before the religious right in Israel really started to assert itself) relatively free to speak and do as one wished. Many of those same young Muslims are angry because of things like the corruption of the various royal families, the limitations on their own abilities and, in many cases the poverty.

Iran and other countries have used religion as a fascade, he noted, but it's the anger over the relative affluence in Israel and the question, "why can't we have this," he noted.

As to other Muslim countries, they're doing nothing to reduce the anger and animosity of the Palestinians. With all of the oil wealth throughout the Middle East, one would think the oil-rich countries would use their wealth to reduce tension by making economic investment in Palestinian controlled lands in the Gaza strip. But such tension-reducing investment doesn't serve the shieks' best interests, which is destabilization by fostering a holy war. It's easier to stoke up the anger of a whole group of far-away Middle Eastern enthenticities than it is to deal with the weaknesses in your own country, the latter of which would lead to civil unrest were it not for the overriding anger toward the Jewish people in Isreal.

That's why I believe Iran stoked up the Palestinians. Things have been a little uncomfortable for the mullahs as of late, so I'm convinced they sat down and said, "let's start another holy war and unite the people." And, if they can draw in the great satan, all the better.

I know this sounds stupid but it's the middle east. Nothing there makes sense to the Western mind!

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Before anyone cries, "but the source".  A very good write-up on the Hamas attack from The Daily Kos. 

Hamas learned the wrong lessons from Russia
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/10/8/2198125/-Ukraine-Update-Hamas-learned-the-wrong-lessons-from-Russia

[JWags85]

100% correct.  You should be ashamed of yourself Pakumi.  Disgusting.to read your views.

Muggsy, this is entirely unfair and overly hysterical.  I don't necessarily agree with everything with Pakuni has stated here, but we've been having a civil, educated exchange.  He's been fair and evenhanded.  Nothing remotely disgusting.  Save that sort of outrage for the groups in the US celebrating this weekend or people who immediately justify or brush away Hamas' actions stating that its "Israel's fault, they deserved this", nothing of which he even implied.

[Pakuni]

I don't think its an unfortunate accident, but I just think the aim is exceedingly different.  If Hamas was launching their attacks from Egypt or Syria, with no presence in Gaza, IDF wouldn't be blasting civilians in Gaza right now for the hell of it.  Look at the difference in deaths year by year in Gaza vs the West Bank.

Fair enough. I'll put it this way, and let it drop.
I don't think killing civilians is the primary intent/goal of the IDF. But I don't believe the loss of civilian life is something they try to avoid. It's acceptable - and sometimes even beneficial, i.e. collective punishment - in furtherance of their wider goals.
I think this is true in part because many Israelis view Palestinians as less than equal humans, just as many Palestinians view Israelis as less than equal humans. I have no idea how you solve this with that being a prevailing attitude on both sides.

Your comments in response to Muggsy are appreciated.

[muwarrior69]

This seems like an excellent statement.

And even if they had urged restraint, it wouldn't be a terrible statement. Israel has a right to defend itself and its people, that doesn't mean they can't show restraint to help quell the cycle of violence.

Easy for many here to say since none of our loved one were not killed.

[muwarrior69]

Yes, Hamas is disgusting.

But Israel has bombed Mosques, Hospitals, and housing complexes already, that had no connection to Hamas, besides maybe a Hamas member living, worshipping or being treated there. Doctor's without borders was even calling out Israel for bombing hospitals, and ambulances.

I've said it in other contexts and it applies here too. War is ugly, atrocities being committed on all sides.

Have they condemned Hamas for the unprovoked indiscriminate bombing in Israel?

[The Sultan]

Have they condemned Hamas for the unprovoked indiscriminate bombing in Israel?

Here is their statement.  Pretty hard to dispute it.

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-msf-provides-medical-care-and-donates-supplies-amid-intense-conflict

They don't comment on what is happening in Israel because they don't operate in Israel. They operate in Palestine.


"A challenge facing medical staff in Gaza right now is the lack of safe ways to transfer patients to health facilities. "Ambulances can't be used right now because they're being hit by airstrikes," said Darwin Diaz, MSF medical coordinator in Gaza.

In fighting on October 7, Israeli forces struck Indonesian hospital and an ambulance in front of Nasser hospital, killing a nurse and an ambulance driver and injuring several others. MSF has supported Indonesian hospital and Nasser hospital in southern Gaza since 2021 and 2011, respectively.

MSF calls on all parties to the conflict to respect health infrastructure and workers. Health care facilities cannot become targets and hospitals must remain a sanctuary for people seeking care, MSF said."

...

"MSF does not run medical programs in Israel, which has strong emergency and health services. Since we currently only run programs in the Palestinian Territories, our reporting is rooted in the direct witnessing of our patients and staff on the ground there. As an independent, impartial humanitarian organization, we call on all parties to the conflict to ensure the safety of civilians and medical facilities."

[JWags85]

One interesting perspective on the entire Middle East mess came from a friend who is Muslim and has lived in both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. His late father was a professional whose main client was the Saudi royal family.

First things first: he absolutely hated Israel and repreatedly wished for that nation's demise -- a common thread in the Muslim world.

Secondly, his feeling was that many younger Muslims looked at Israel with a sense of envy. It's one of the few places in the middle east with no oil. Yet, Israel is comparatively affluent, entrepreneurial, democratic and (before the religious right in Israel really started to assert itself) relatively free to speak and do as one wished. Many of those same young Muslims are angry because of things like the corruption of the various royal families, the limitations on their own abilities and, in many cases the poverty.

I didn't think about it until yesterday, but this is an interesting point.  Exempting my BIL and his family, I knew about a dozen native Israelis in my early to mid 20s, all but 1 of them were pretty much secular.   Over the last decade, the number of people I knew that either lived in Israel or had close ties to Israel grew to an additional 20-30.  And by and large, the most religious or observant Jews in that group were all Americans who immigrated there as adults.

The transformation of Bibi as PM has been very disappointing, IMO.  I had a lot of respect for him both in his first term and early in his recent tenure during his second and third terms.  He is an incredibly intelligent man, in both education and real world, non political experience.  He did fantastic things for the Israeli economy, was progressing in social matters, and had sensible opinions on a way forward with Palestinian interests.  He was always hard line on terrorism and Israeli military might, but from an understandable place given his background.  But he and his government have shifted so far over the last half decade or so that its been both disappointing and politically foolish/arrogant from a normally savvy political operator.  Has he been influenced and pushed by Hamas and what they've done in the occupied territories over the last decade?  Without a doubt.  But for a formerly respected and experienced international statesman like him, he should be/know better

Iran and other countries have used religion as a fascade, he noted, but it's the anger over the relative affluence in Israel and the question, "why can't we have this," he noted.

As to other Muslim countries, they're doing nothing to reduce the anger and animosity of the Palestinians. With all of the oil wealth throughout the Middle East, one would think the oil-rich countries would use their wealth to reduce tension by making economic investment in Palestinian controlled lands in the Gaza strip. But such tension-reducing investment doesn't serve the shieks' best interests, which is destabilization by fostering a holy war. It's easier to stoke up the anger of a whole group of far-away Middle Eastern enthenticities than it is to deal with the weaknesses in your own country, the latter of which would lead to civil unrest were it not for the overriding anger toward the Jewish people in Isreal.

That's why I believe Iran stoked up the Palestinians. Things have been a little uncomfortable for the mullahs as of late, so I'm convinced they sat down and said, "let's start another holy war and unite the people." And, if they can draw in the great satan, all the better.

I know this sounds stupid but it's the middle east. Nothing there makes sense to the Western mind!

There is some really good insight in here.  I read a really good Twitter thread over the weekend speaking to some of the same.

Look at the stark difference in the mentality of places like UAE/Bahrain as a result of the Abraham Accords, and moving forward, against somewhere like Iran or Lebanon or Syria.  The hardcore fundamentalists of the Middle East view Palestine as their leverage and push point to fight their battle against the West and modernity.

[MuggsyB]

Muggsy, this is entirely unfair and overly hysterical.  I don't necessarily agree with everything with Pakuni has stated here, but we've been having a civil, educated exchange.  He's been fair and evenhanded.  Nothing remotely disgusting.  Save that sort of outrage for the groups in the US celebrating this weekend or people who immediately justify or brush away Hamas' actions stating that its "Israel's fault, they deserved this", nothing of which he even implied.

This is complete false equivalency JWags.  And btw we have American hostages there, dead Americans, and 200K Americans that live in Israel.  Hamas through the support of Iran are pure evil. 

You want to lnow why Gaza has been a s-show since '07?  It's 90% because of Hamas, Iran and the PA.   The truth is since '47 every single deal for peace that has been put on the table has been rejected by Palestinian leadership. 

The Israeli government is not blameless but Iran is a Terrorist State and Hamas members are utter scumbags.  Period.   Israel is now caught between a rock and a hard place because there is no way to protect their country without obliterating areas where Hamas and other terrorists are operated.

Additionally, we  should immediately seize that 6B we gave to Iran, destroy their disgusting leadership and cripple them permanently. 

[MuggsyB]

And for those of you who do not think their is blatant antisemitism from the far left listen to the responses from Talib, Omar, AOC, Whitmer, etc.  They are the most asinine comments I've ever heard.  And where exactly is our President?  We have dead Americans there and American hostages there.  He must address our nation. Immediately. 

[shoothoops]

This is a good call out.  Hames =/= Palestine.  And Palestinians are just a puppet for Hamas.  Which makes this so incredibly difficult to navigate.  Hamas would sacrifice the life of every Palestinian civilian if it meant Israel's demise.  A free Palestine is as much a freedom from Hamas/Hezbollah as it is a freedom from Israel.  While much focus is placed on the latter, it simply cannot occur without the former.

I don't think its an unfortunate accident, but I just think the aim is exceedingly different.  If Hamas was launching their attacks from Egypt or Syria, with no presence in Gaza, IDF wouldn't be blasting civilians in Gaza right now for the hell of it.  Look at the difference in deaths year by year in Gaza vs the West Bank.

Tangentially related, its a bit raw so maybe now is not the time, but this situation makes me recommend that everyone should watch Fauda.  Granted its an Israeli show co-created by a former IDF Special Forces soldier, but it gives a fairly intricate look into the nature of the daily military conflict, casts a fair eye to the suffering of Palestinians caught in the middle, and just how grey it all is.

I would agree, except that Hamas is the majority elected ruling party in Palestine.  And they have an outsized impact on everything regarding the Palestinian people.  And many pro-Palestinian groups support Hamas' terrorist efforts on Palestine's "behalf"

Less than 45% of the vote, 17 years ago.

[jesmu84]

Muggsy, are you calling for an open US war on Iran?

[Pakuni]

Additionally, we  should immediately seize that 6B we gave to Iran, destroy their disgusting leadership and cripple them permanently.

Yep, let's go fight another war in the Middle East - this time with a country of nearly 90 million.
Rational and even-tempered as always.

And again, we haven't given Iran a dime, no matter how many times you choose to post that lie.

[Uncle Rico]

Muggsy, are you calling for an open US war on Iran?

He's made it clear the value of American lives isn't important to him when it comes to revisionist history and war

[The Sultan]

Yep, let's go fight another war in the Middle East - this time with a country of nearly 90 million.
Rational and even-tempered as always.

Right. Anyone who things we are going to cause regime change in Iran is kidding themselves.

[MuggsyB]

He's made it clear the value of American lives isn't important to him when it comes to revisionist history and war

Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES.  That's my opinion. 

[Pakuni]

Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES.  That's my opinion.

Why not let Israel do that?
And do you not believe killing their leadership and destroying their economy is tantamount to a full declaration of war?
Lastly, what are my views?

[Uncle Rico]

Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES.  That's my opinion.

Then you're an idiot

[MuggsyB]

Yep, let's go fight another war in the Middle East - this time with a country of nearly 90 million.
Rational and even-tempered as always.

And again, we haven't given Iran a dime, no matter how many times you choose to post that lie.

It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war. 

[Uncle Rico]

It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.

Idiotic