Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[The Sultan]

It doesn't address anything I said since I didn't call him racist.

You really have trouble with basic reading don't you.

[Heisenberg]

It doesn't address anything I said since I didn't call him racist.

You really have trouble with basic reading don't you.

So now you agree there is no such thing as Islamophobia?

[Uncle Rico]

So now you agree there is no such thing as Islamophobia?

lol

[The Sultan]

So now you agree there is no such thing as Islamophobia?

Nope. Logic fail (again) by Heisey.

[Heisenberg]

Nope. Logic fail (again) by Heisey.

[Lennys Tap]

Sam Harris has already responded to this criticism, and he describes you well ... as you are a caricature (or maybe an AI bot) of a Western Progressive.

December 6, 2023
https://www.samharris.org/blog/what-is-islamophobia

What is Islamophobia? Someone once said on the Internet, it's a word "invented by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons," and that's not far from the truth. There is no question that the term has been designed to confuse people. Its purpose is to conflate any criticism of Islam, which is a doctrine of religious beliefs, with bigotry against Muslims as people. In fact, it equates secularism itself—the commitment to keeping religion out of our laws and public policy—with hatred. The term is now being widely used in the mainstream media, and it is making it impossible to speak honestly about the consequences of dangerous ideas.

Let's be clear about what is real here and what is fake: Racism is real. There are white supremacists in America, for instance. And, of course, these imbeciles can be counted upon to hate immigrants from Muslim-majority countries—Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis, etc.—and to hate them for their superficial characteristics, like the color of their skin. This is detestable. But these people hate non-Muslim immigrants too—for instance, Hindus from India—and for the same reasons. We already have words like "racism" and "xenophobia" to cover this problem.  Inventing a new term like "Islamophobia" doesn't give us license to say that there is a new form of hatred in the world.

There is no race of Muslims. Islam is a system of ideas, subscribed to by people of every race and ethnicity. It's just like Christianity in that regard. Christianity and Islam are both aggressively missionary faiths, and they win converts from everywhere. People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people. There's no such thing as "Christophobia." If you criticize Christianity—and I've written an entire book excoriating Christianity—no one accuses you of being a racist against people from Brazil, or Mexico, or Ethiopia, or the Philippines. But even the New York Times will use the term "Islamophobia" as a synonym for racism against Arabs. This is pure delusion and propaganda. There are Christian Arabs. And I could become a Muslim in 5 minutes just by converting to the faith.

Spot on. I'd love to hear a cogent rebuttal to Mr Harris but I won't hold my breath.

[The Sultan]

Spot on. I'd love to hear a cogent rebuttal to Mr Harris but I won't hold my breath.

Oh come on. Don't be a nitwit.

Of course Islamophobia can be (and is) a thing. Just like Christianophobia can be a thing. It's not "racist" per se because Muslims come in many races, like Christians, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Furthermore using that article to rebut the fact that he is using Islamophobes to prop up a hilariously poor argument is nonsensical.

[Pakuni]

Spot on. I'd love to hear a cogent rebuttal to Mr Harris but I won't hold my breath.

Actually, his argument is remarkably dim. Its based on a flawed premise that hatred and bigotry can only be based on race or ethnicity. It essentially boils down to "Islamophobia not real cuz Muslims not all same race."
By that logic, antisemitism isn't real because not all Jews are the same race. And homophobia isn't real because gay people come from a multitude of ethnic groups.
Honestly, I would expect better from a college freshman, much less Sam Harris.

Then there's the insipid claim that  "People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people."
Is he really this dumb, or does he live under a rock? There's an entire media ecosystem out there constantly decrying anti-Christian bigotry.
Here are just a few examples:

https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/

https://www.newsweek.com/acceptable-hate-assaults-christianity-go-overlooked-opinion-1791866

https://www.hudson.org/human-rights/the-war-on-christians

https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/11/ongoing-war-against-christianity-siobhan-nash-marshall.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-christian-hostility-reaching-unprecedented-levels-culture-government-under-biden-observers-warn

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/nbc-declares-war-on-christians

https://churchleaders.com/news/429685-hatred-christianity-animating-forces-other-side-tucker-carlson.html

[The Sultan]

Actually, his argument is remarkably dim. Its based on a flawed premise that hatred and bigotry can only be based on race or ethnicity. It essentially boils down to "Islamophobia not real cuz Muslims not all same race."
By that logic, antisemitism isn't real because not all Jews are the same race. And homophobia isn't real because gay people come from a multitude of ethnic groups.
Honestly, I would expect better from a college freshman, much less Sam Harris.

Then there's the insipid claim that  "People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people."
Is he really this dumb, or does he live under a rock? There's an entire media ecosystem out there constantly decrying anti-Christian bigotry.
Here are just a few examples:

https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/

https://www.newsweek.com/acceptable-hate-assaults-christianity-go-overlooked-opinion-1791866

https://www.hudson.org/human-rights/the-war-on-christians

https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/11/ongoing-war-against-christianity-siobhan-nash-marshall.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-christian-hostility-reaching-unprecedented-levels-culture-government-under-biden-observers-warn

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/nbc-declares-war-on-christians

https://churchleaders.com/news/429685-hatred-christianity-animating-forces-other-side-tucker-carlson.html

Yep yep. The fact that we have Scoopers thinking this is a good argument is pretty sad.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Islamophobia isn't real because that would imply some of those here would be egregiously guilty of it

[Lennys Tap]

Oh come on. Don't be a nitwit.

Of course Islamophobia can be (and is) a thing. Just like Christianophobia can be a thing. It's not "racist" per se because Muslims come in many races, like Christians, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Furthermore using that article to rebut the fact that he is using Islamophobes to prop up a hilariously poor argument is nonsensical.

Sam Harris and I are nitwits and you're not. That's your cogent argument. Just what I expected.

[The Sultan]

Sam Harris and I are nitwits and you're not. That's your cogent argument. Just what I expected.

Ah. You read the first paragraph, but not the rest.

But yeah. If you support what Harris wrote, both of you are nitwits.

[Uncle Rico]

Sam Harris and I are nitwits and you're not. That's your cogent argument. Just what I expected.

If you think Islamophobia isn't real, then yes

[Lennys Tap]

Actually, his argument is remarkably dim. Its based on a flawed premise that hatred and bigotry can only be based on race or ethnicity. It essentially boils down to "Islamophobia not real cuz Muslims not all same race."
By that logic, antisemitism isn't real because not all Jews are the same race. And homophobia isn't real because gay people come from a multitude of ethnic groups.
Honestly, I would expect better from a college freshman, much less Sam Harris.

Then there's the insipid claim that  "People criticize Christianity all the time and worry about its political and social influences—but no one confuses this for bigotry against Christians as people."
Is he really this dumb, or does he live under a rock? There's an entire media ecosystem out there constantly decrying anti-Christian bigotry.
Here are just a few examples:

https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/

https://www.newsweek.com/acceptable-hate-assaults-christianity-go-overlooked-opinion-1791866

https://www.hudson.org/human-rights/the-war-on-christians

https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2020/11/ongoing-war-against-christianity-siobhan-nash-marshall.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-christian-hostility-reaching-unprecedented-levels-culture-government-under-biden-observers-warn

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/nbc-declares-war-on-christians

https://churchleaders.com/news/429685-hatred-christianity-animating-forces-other-side-tucker-carlson.html

You're using opinion pieces from people and sources that you, Sultan and the rest of your squad would mock as ridiculous to prove that "Christianophobia" exists? That's hilarious. And dimwitted.

[The Sultan]

You're using opinion pieces from people and sources that you, Sultan and the rest of your squad would mock as ridiculous to prove that "Christianophobia" exists? That's hilarious. And dimwitted.

You didn't follow his argument. Maybe read more than a couple sentences Chicos.

[Pakuni]

You're using opinion pieces from people and sources that you, Sultan and the rest of your squad would mock as ridiculous to prove that "Christianophobia" exists? That's hilarious. And dimwitted.

Nice rebuttal, with the added personal insult to really drive home your lack of a thoughtful retort.

To be clear- something which I thought should be obvious- I don't post those links to assert the content as true, but rather as evidence that disproves Harris' blatantly false claim.

And lastly, I hope you can at least recognize the irony of you mocking "opinion pieces" while defending Harris' opinion piece.

Stay classy, Lenny.

[Lennys Tap]

Nice rebuttal, with the added personal insult to really drive home your lack of a thoughtful retort.

To be clear- something which I thought should be obvious- I don't post those links to assert the content as true, but rather as evidence that disproves Harris' blatantly false claim.

And lastly, I hope you can at least recognize the irony of you mocking "opinion pieces" while defending Harris' opinion piece.

Stay classy, Lenny.

Sorry about the "dimwit" comment - should have gone to sultan who started with that insult.

Just so I understand. You cited the sources that you did to prove that some people think that "Christianophobia" is a thing. OK. Some people think it's a thing. But you don't agree with them. Neither do I. Neither would Sam Harris.

Why do you feel differently about Islamophobia?

[The Sultan]

Of course Chiristianophobia is a thing. Why wouldn't it be?

[Hards Alumni]

Of course Chiristianophobia is a thing. Why wouldn't it be?

Because that would be devastating to the argument.

[Pakuni]

Sorry about the "dimwit" comment - should have gone to sultan who started with that insult.

Just so I understand. You cited the sources that you did to prove that some people think that "Christianophobia" is a thing. OK. Some people think it's a thing. But you don't agree with them. Neither do I. Neither would Sam Harris.

Why do you feel differently about Islamophobia?

First, you shouldn't assume what I believe. I very much think anti-Christian bigotry exists. Not in the way Fox News and the right-wing media portrays it (i.e. War on Christmas nonsense) but there are absolutely places in the world where you'll be discriminated against or persecuted for being Christian.
I'm surprised to learn you disagree with that.

Second, you're mischaracterizing Harris' statement. He didn't just write that "Christianophobia" isn't a thing (in and of itself false). He writes that "no one" suggests criticism of Christian influence on politics = Christian bigotry. That's entirely false. We hear that all the time. Ill offer more examples if you wish, including from a certain former president a few days ago. Heck, we have a member of the Supreme Court (looking at you, Justice Gorsuch) obsessed with the idea that American Christians face wide discrimination.
So, Harris is wrong on two counts. Anti-Christian discrimination does exist and people (mostly on the right) often conflate criticism of Christian influence with bigotry.

[Lennys Tap]

Of course Chiristianophobia is a thing. Why wouldn't it be?

If it is, then those who believe Christianity (or any other religion(s) are responsible for a lot of the world's ills (Rico and plenty of others on Scoop) are bigots on a major scale. I don't believe that.

[Pakuni]

If it is, then those who believe Christianity (or any other religion(s) are responsible for a lot of the world's ills (Rico and plenty of others on Scoop) are bigots on a major scale. I don't believe that.

Neither do I. Because expressing a negative opinion of Christianity's influence on history (or present times) is not bigotry.
If I said the Catholic church has a history of overlooking pedophilia, that wouldn't be bigotry. It would be stating a fact. Now, if I said Catholicism is pro-child rape, that would be bigoted.
Likewise, saying that Islam has been used to nspire terrorism isn't a bigoted statement. It's a fact.  But saying Muslims are terrorists is indeed Islamophobic.

[rocky_warrior]

if I said Catholicism is pro-child rape, that would be bigoted.

That's ridiculous.  We all know it's agnostic to child rape.

[MU82]

If I said the Catholic church has a history of overlooking pedophilia, that wouldn't be bigotry. It would be stating a fact. Now, if I said Catholicism is pro-child rape, that would be bigoted.
Likewise, saying that Islam has been used to nspire terrorism isn't a bigoted statement. It's a fact.  But saying Muslims are terrorists is indeed Islamophobic.

Bingo.

[forgetful]

Thousands of Christians have been killed in Nigeria over the past decade, 100's were killed on Christmas. Why? Because they were Christian, and the group that attacks them for sport hate Christians.

That is an example of Christian-aphobia, or anti-Christian hate.

There are many in this nation that hate Catholics. They have Catholic-aphobia, or anti-Catholic hate.

Denying these things exist is frankly odd, it is a fact.

I might be willing to meet you half-way if you said the moniker "Islamaphobia" is dumb, because it is a phrase used to make it seem less aggressive than similar hate words, like racist, or bigot, e.g. they don't hate them, they just fear them. The reality is the word is used to soften the criticism of those that hate muslims.

Islamaphobia is real. It is widespread. I've known Sikhs who were brutally attacked, or treated poorly, because people thought they were Muslim...nothing else, just that they were Muslim.

Those that deny it, need to look deep down and try to figure out why they are ok with hatred towards Muslims, and deny it as an problem/issue.