Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[MuggsyB]

If you think there'd be no terrorism without Iran, I'd like to see your work.

Hezbollah, Hamas or any other organization of that ilk existed long before Iran became a Theocracy

I meant that particular group of terrorists. 

[The Sultan]

Israel has a right exist now. No doubt.

To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.

But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.

And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.

And none of this means I am antisemetic. 

[MuggsyB]

You keep saying this, but have offered not even a hint of how you would achieve it. Until you do, we can only assume you're living in a Rambo cosplay.

Assume whatever you want Pakuni.  I have offered many, many, non-Rambo solutions and we may need some Delta Force badasses.  I understand no one wants to discuss the elephant in the room but we're dealing with a very dangerous ideology not to mention other geopolitical s-shows that are getting worse and worse and worse. You can't eviscerate every scumbag or sympathizers of scumbags.  On the other hand you cannot deter without even the slightest threat of hard power. 

I would actually have red lines if I was in charge and if my demands were not met there would be severe consequences for these evil people.  All of them would be fertilizer for starters. 

[The Sultan]

Assume whatever you want Pakuni.  I have offered many, many, non-Rambo solutions and we may need some Delta Force badasses.  I understand no one wants to discuss the elephant in the room but we're dealing with a very dangerous ideology not to mention other geopolitical s-shows that are getting worse and worse and worse. You can't eviscerate every scumbag or sympathizers of scumbags.  On the other hand you cannot deter without even the slightest threat of hard power. 

I would actually have red lines if I was in charge and if my demands were not met there would be severe consequences for these evil people.  All of them would be fertilizer for starters. 

Lol. You're the one who brings elephants into the room and then refuses to deal with them when asked.

[forgetful]

No one is sub-human. But two groups with incompatible world views want to eliminate each other. The only solution for peace is for one side to prevail.  Or they can keep killing each other slowly for the next 1,000 years like they have the last 1,000 years.

Yes, we all wish it did not have to be this way. But humans disagree and think differently, and conflict is, unfortunately, the only way to settle it.

Looks like you said the silent part (you believe in) out loud. While the people you continuously accuse of hate, advocate for saving lives everywhere. You have directly posted, that in your opinion BOTH sides want to ELIMINATE each other.

And, you advocate then for eliminating the Palestinians as the only route to peace.

You directly state, what you accuse others of secretly believing.

Meanwhile, everyone else, you accuse of such vile ideology, renounce it, and instead believe that the Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to establishing independent states in the holy land, and can both live and coexist in peace with a proper peace plan establishing two-states with borders based on something like the 1967, 1969 borders.

If you had actually read my original post (everything in the post has been subsequently posted on here in shorter and more succinct and better worded ways). It said the problem was people who believe like you and Hamas do. That the only way to peace is to annihilate the other side, and to unify all of the region under one sides rule, strictly based on religious beliefs.

That belief is abhorrent, and is the cause of decades of violence.

[21Jumpstreet]

Reasonable or not?

October 20, 2023
Jewish Americans Arm Themselves in Wake of Israeli Horror
https://thereload.com/jewish-americans-arm-themselves-in-wake-of-horror-in-israel/

"There's another order coming from Hamas to kill the Jews. I happen to be Jewish, and I don't want to be killed."

That's the succinct explanation Joshua, a doctor in Los Angeles, gave for why he decided to buy his first gun this week. He's far from alone. New owners and trainers alike described scenes of gun stores and safety classes full of Jewish Americans hoping to protect themselves from the kind of slaughter that played out on October 7th when Hamas terrorists streamed over the border into Israel and ruthlessly slaughtered more than 1,400 men, women, and children.

"I was at a local gun store a couple of days ago, where my wife was doing her firearms training test, and it was full," Joshua, who–like several others who spoke to The Reload for this story–did not want his real name revealed in large part due to safety concerns, said. "There was a line outside to get in for people to do their tests, or buy firearms, or practice on the range. And I would say it was 90% Jewish people and Israelis."

He said the motivation of those in line was clear.

"We all know what happened in Israel. It was a horrific attack on civilians by Hamas with the tally now up close to 1,500 dead," Joshua said. "It's the worst attack against Jews since the Holocaust. I never thought I'd say this, but it's almost worse than the Nazis. They buried the bodies or cremated the bodies. The Nazis hid their atrocities. Hamas is live streaming their atrocities where they kill babies, shoot the elderly waiting at bus stops, rape women, and mow down young people at a music festival for peace."

----

"The tension and the anger is palpable," he said. "And the calls that you're seeing come out of these rallies, it's not let's get along with our Jewish brothers and sisters, let's coexist. You hear things like, 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.' That's not a call for peace. That's a call for the eradication of Jews from Israel. That literally means from the river to the sea, that's referring to all of Israel. They want they want the entire land. And these aren't isolated incidents."

He pointed to anti-Semitic incidents across the globe. Outside the Sydney Opera House in Australia, protesters chanted, "Gas the Jews." A swastika was held up during a rally in New York City's Times Square, and another was drawn on a famous Jewish Deli in the city. Iconography of paragliders, which Hamas terrorists used in their attack, has been featured at numerous protests throughout the country and the world.

Reasonable to buy a gun and taken firearms safety training classes to protect themselves, yeah, it's their right. Am I a fan of guns and people arming themselves outside the home, not my favorite thing on the planet. Is it their constitutional right, do I believe in the constitution, both yes. Candidly, my wife lives and works in the firearms/self defense/2A/responsible and educated gun owners space, so she has given me some perspective on the gun conversation.

Do I want us to take up arms against each other, I do not. Would I prefer we live in peace, I do. Am I an idealist, I am. Will I give up hope, I will not.

[Uncle Rico]

I meant that particular group of terrorists.

You don't think they'd exist if Iran's Theocracy was toppled?

Let's say that's true.  Someone or something will spring up and replace them.  Now, would eliminating the current Iranian leadership be beneficial for the region as a whole?  Yes, I believe that would be true.  Do I also believe something worse can spring from their ashes?  Yes, that's also a very realistic possibility. 

You keep saying seize the oil fields, I assume as a way to cripple them and Iran as a whole financially.  Short-term, that might work.  Long-term?  Good luck

[21Jumpstreet]

Looks like you said the silent part (you believe in) out loud. While the people you continuously accuse of hate, advocate for saving lives everywhere. You have directly posted, that in your opinion BOTH sides want to ELIMINATE each other.

And, you advocate then for eliminating the Palestinians as the only route to peace.

You directly state, what you accuse others of secretly believing.

Meanwhile, everyone else, you accuse of such vile ideology, renounce it, and instead believe that the Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to establishing independent states in the holy land, and can both live and coexist in peace with a proper peace plan establishing two-states with borders based on something like the 1967, 1969 borders.

If you had actually read my original post (everything in the post has been subsequently posted on here in shorter and more succinct and better worded ways). It said the problem was people who believe like you and Hamas do. That the only way to peace is to annihilate the other side, and to unify all of the region under one sides rule, strictly based on religious beliefs.

That belief is abhorrent, and is the cause of decades of violence.

Unfortunately, you have made a very good point here about what H20 said and seems to believe.

[tower912]

If you want to really cripple the middle east, buy an electric car.    Go green.     Take one small step in the process of bankrupting them. 

[MuggsyB]

You don't think they'd exist if Iran's Theocracy was toppled?

Let's say that's true.  Someone or something will spring up and replace them.  Now, would eliminating the current Iranian leadership be beneficial for the region as a whole?  Yes, I believe that would be true.  Do I also believe something worse can spring from their ashes?  Yes, that's also a very realistic possibility. 

You keep saying seize the oil fields, I assume as a way to cripple them and Iran as a whole financially.  Short-term, that might work.  Long-term?  Good luck

I'm not concerned with leaving vacuums.  I would deal with the next round of scumbags quickly as well.  If they continue to ruthlessly attack innocent people the results won't change, they'll no longer exist.  As far as the middle east in particular long-term?  We may have to be a bit anachronistic and upset a few people.

[tower912]

Why do you claim that is our right?

[Uncle Rico]

If you want to really cripple the middle east, buy an electric car.   

Are you really suggesting that?  Can't I just get a bumper sticker instead?

[Uncle Rico]

I'm not concerned with leaving vacuums.  I would deal with the next round of scumbags quickly as well.  If they continue to ruthlessly attack innocent people the results won't change, they'll no longer exist.  As far as the middle east in particular long-term?  We may have to be a bit anachronistic and upset a few people.

So, that means occupying or colonizing whatever region flares up. 

What's the human cost and taxpayer cost?  What in our history of let's say, the last 20 years or so, says that will work?

[MuggsyB]

Why do you claim that is our right?

Tower,

I'm truly not thrilled about this option, or dominating the world to the level I'm suggesting, but tbe alternative may very well be way, way, way, worse.  We have a right to protect humanity imo as we did close to 80 yrs ago. 

[forgetful]

So, that means occupying or colonizing whatever region flares up. 

What's the human cost and taxpayer cost?  What in our history of let's say, the last 20 years or so, says that will work?

It would appear that Muggsy's plan is akin to the idea of:

"The beatings will continue until morale improves...." just far far far more violent.

[MuggsyB]

It would appear that Muggsy's plan is akin to the idea of:

"The beatings will continue until morale improves...." just far far far more violent.

I did not say that at all.  Stop putting words in other posters' mouths and trying to clarify everything. 

[The Sultan]

I did not say that at all.  Stop putting words in other posters' mouths and trying to clarify everything. 

He never claimed you said that.

[MuggsyB]

He never claimed you said that.

He's "analyzing" my plan which I haven't even shared. 

[Uncle Rico]

He's "analyzing" my plan which I haven't even shared.

Huh, how about that.

[tower912]

Does the plan include the end of democracy in America, installing a strong  leader who will do what has to be done and suspending the other branches of government?   Does it involve reinstating the draft to get the manpower necessary?   Does it involve employing US military power without regard to the rest of the world's opinion and without regard to collateral damage?

Because there is no plan you can possibly have that does not involve at least some of these.

You are learning the wrong lessons from history.

[Pakuni]

Guys, I'm starting to think Muggsy may not actually have a plan.

[tower912]

I think he does.   I just think it is one that will not stand up to scrutiny.

[Jockey]

Why do you claim that is our right?

We're white.

[4everwarriors]

To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.

But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.

And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.

And none of this means I am antisemetic.

Card carrying member of the Scoop 10, aina?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Guys, I'm starting to think Muggsy may not actually have a plan.

Oh, he has a plan. Unfortunately Scoopers are treating this insane asshat with kid gloves while he calls for the U.S. to go on a global reign of terror and murder millions of people.