Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[The Sultan]

You misgender him because you did not read it. You claim moral superiority for not reading it because it does not fit your worldview.

Try reading it, what are you afraid of?

I read it. I think it was full of victimizing exaggerations. The kind of stuff you fall for repeatedly.

[jesmu84]

Lol

Throwing stones is a long way from this:

The Palestinians who will be released in the impending deal are convicted terrorists who are in prison because they tried to murder Israelis

.

[4everwarriors]

https://apple.news/AsN7K5VKqT6WQIsmfBY87Vw


#fromtherivertothesea

[lawdog77]

Lol

Throwing stones is a long way from this:
.

Actually, stone throwing is a serious offense in the middle east and has resulted in many deaths.

[reinko]

Do you think warnings of terrorism in the US are a joke?

Do you think drinking from the firehouse of right wing media and proclaiming suspected terror attacks on the Canadien border is a joke?

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Googling billions and billions of pages to find one story does not prove your point.

[MU82]

Do you think drinking from the firehouse of right wing media and proclaiming suspected terror attacks on the Canadien border is a joke?

There's an automobile accident on the border, and Fox News goes wild calling it a terrorist attack.

All of America watches police getting pummeled during a violent coup attempt at the U.S. Capitol on live TV, and Fox News shrugs its shoulders about a tourist visit.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

"Women and children account for nearly 70 percent of all deaths reported in Gaza even though most combatants are men — an "extraordinary statistic," Rick Brennan, the regional emergency director for the World Health Organization's Eastern Mediterranean office".

Sobering read. Hell on earth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html

[jesmu84]

Israel censoring released hostage media statements?

[Pakuni]

"Women and children account for nearly 70 percent of all deaths reported in Gaza even though most combatants are men — an "extraordinary statistic," Rick Brennan, the regional emergency director for the World Health Organization's Eastern Mediterranean office".

Sobering read. Hell on earth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html

I have it on good authority that the vast majority of those children are 15- to 18-year-old  soldiers.

[jesmu84]

@jeremyscahill
(Intercept reporter)

The list of Palestinians to be potentially released by Israel has 300 names:
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones

Israel's own list of the 300 Palestinians proposed for release states that 233 of them are "במעצר" meaning under arrest, meaning not convicted. There is also extensive documentation on the lack of due process & basic rights afforded Palestinians accused by Israel of crimes.  This is a fact that has been widely documented by major international human rights organizations for decades.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

@jeremyscahill
(Intercept reporter)

The list of Palestinians to be potentially released by Israel has 300 names:
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones

Israel's own list of the 300 Palestinians proposed for release states that 233 of them are "במעצר" meaning under arrest, meaning not convicted. There is also extensive documentation on the lack of due process & basic rights afforded Palestinians accused by Israel of crimes.  This is a fact that has been widely documented by major international human rights organizations for decades.

You mean 300 terrorists

[Boozemon Barro]

This whole discussion is pointless. Western leftists see everything through the lens of power, and will support whatever side is seen as having less power. That's why they can hand waive a livestreamed attack specifically targeting civilians, including rape and baby murder and immediately turn their attention to the plight of the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians have less power so there is literally nothing they can do that's beyond the pale. Once you realize that is their perspective, it makes any further discussion irrelevant.

[jesmu84]

This whole discussion is pointless. Western leftists see everything through the lens of power, and will support whatever side is seen as having less power. That's why they can hand waive a livestreamed attack specifically targeting civilians, including rape and baby murder and immediately turn their attention to the plight of the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians have less power so there is literally nothing they can do that's beyond the pale. Once you realize that is their perspective, it makes any further discussion irrelevant.

Has anyone here supported the 10/7 terrorist attack?

Good straw man

[forgetful]

Yea, except they passed no less than half a dozen hospitals between the border and Al Shifa if they were really seeking treatment....

Disagree on the latter.  We have no idea what the IDF was seeking, had in their intel about Al Shifa, etc..

Quick Question JWags, as I respect your opinion, and think you are very level headed in your approach/understanding of the situation.

Do you think that Israel has presented sufficient evidence of hospitals being used as command and control centers in this conflict (so far)?

To clarify, that is different than having used those facilities. I think everyone will agree that they used the facilities to varying extents. I highlight the difference because there is a high threshold of evidence required by international law for a hospital to lose its special protections. Most of the international media has been critical, saying they have insufficient evidence to nullify the special protection status so far.

I think we can also agree, that they don't need to present all their evidence now, so I'm only analyzing it through the veil of what is currently available, and will modify my stance as more evidence/data is released.

It's also fair to say that you will withhold any decisions until all evidence is available. Because if this wasn't a message board for random discussions, but rather part of formal decision making processes, I would strongly advocate for withholding any statements/decisions until all data/evidence is available. So if that is your stance, we are also in agreement.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Has anyone here supported the 10/7 terrorist attack?

Good straw man

We could also make a straw man that western "rightists" (I don't think that's a thing) also cannot ever levy an ounce of criticism towards Israel's foreign policy. But we (hopefully) won't because most here are not dumb enough to think that that's true or have such a simplistic black and white view of the situation.

[JWags85]

Quick Question JWags, as I respect your opinion, and think you are very level headed in your approach/understanding of the situation.

Do you think that Israel has presented sufficient evidence of hospitals being used as command and control centers in this conflict (so far)?

To clarify, that is different than having used those facilities. I think everyone will agree that they used the facilities to varying extents. I highlight the difference because there is a high threshold of evidence required by international law for a hospital to lose its special protections. Most of the international media has been critical, saying they have insufficient evidence to nullify the special protection status so far.

I think we can also agree, that they don't need to present all their evidence now, so I'm only analyzing it through the veil of what is currently available, and will modify my stance as more evidence/data is released.

It's also fair to say that you will withhold any decisions until all evidence is available. Because if this wasn't a message board for random discussions, but rather part of formal decision making processes, I would strongly advocate for withholding any statements/decisions until all data/evidence is available. So if that is your stance, we are also in agreement.

Appreciate both the question and your complimentary phrasing of it.

As to the question, my answer is two fold.  On one hand, I think the evidence present by Israel is a bit insufficient, but, Ive frankly viewed it as teaser info.  Not "this is all we have" but more "this is touching the surface of what we've found/what we know about".

But also, I agree with your last paragraph, I'm willing to discuss it in the hypothetical because I'm just a nobody civilian on a messageboard.  I firmly believe that the IDF/Mossad knows far more than what we've been given and they have very little need or responsibility to share more during active military operations.  Many who seem to need to take everything at immediate face value or think that Israel should be sharing EVERYTHING seem to be doing so as a way to continue to negatively frame Israel as merchants of wanton violence and gleeful genocide.

Ive said it before, but again, if Israel wanted to or felt it prudent for their goals, they could (and have) wipe out city blocks.  They've obliterated houses to get to Hamas leaders, collateral damage be damned.  I think they've approached Al Shifa cautiously for a variety of reasons.

Going back to the Hamas PR quip I made earlier, Ive become more and more convinced and ingrained in the idea that there are 3 parties at play here.  Israel, Palestinians, and Hamas.  Unfortunately, many MANY people refuse to make that distinction.  Some people are happy to lump Palestinians in with Hamas to vilify them, while some people are more than happy to scoop Hamas into a group with Palestinians to victimize and excuse them.  Hell, I saw people praising Hamas yesterday for their kind and exemplary treatment of hostages 

I take Israel/IDF reports with a grain of salt.  I like to weigh a variety of news reports/NGO statements in regards to the Palestinians in Gaza.  I'm completely fine saying I believe almost nothing that Hamas or their fugazi Gazan government agencies say unless verified by an outlet I actually trust.

[jesmu84]

Good stuff wags

Do you believe Israel should be held to a higher standard compared to Hamas?

[MU82]

X May Lose Up to $75 Million in Revenue as More Advertisers Pull Out

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/24/business/x-elon-musk-advertisers.html

X, the social media company formerly known as Twitter, could lose as much as $75 million in advertising revenue by the end of the year as dozens of major brands pause their marketing campaigns after its owner, Elon Musk, endorsed an antisemitic conspiracy theory this month.

Internal documents viewed by The New York Times this week show that the company is in a more difficult position than previously known and that concerns about Mr. Musk and the platform have spread far beyond companies including IBM, Apple and Disney, which paused their advertising campaigns on X last week. The documents list more than 200 ad units of companies from the likes of Airbnb, Amazon, Coca-Cola and Microsoft, many of which have halted or are considering pausing their ads on the social network.

The documents come from X's sales team and are meant to track the impact of all the advertising lapses this month, including those by companies that have already paused and others that may be at risk of doing so. They list how much ad revenue X employees fear the company could lose through the end of the year if advertisers do not return.

[Heisenberg]

@jeremyscahill
(Intercept reporter)

The list of Palestinians to be potentially released by Israel has 300 names:
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones

Israel's own list of the 300 Palestinians proposed for release states that 233 of them are "במעצר" meaning under arrest, meaning not convicted. There is also extensive documentation on the lack of due process & basic rights afforded Palestinians accused by Israel of crimes.  This is a fact that has been widely documented by major international human rights organizations for decades.

The Palestinians in their prisons are not Israeli citizens. Their crimes were not even committed in Israel but were committed in the occupied land.

So, they are not subject to the same rights as an Israeli citizen. So, the argument about due process does not apply to them. It applies to citizens only.

Every democracy does this. The US reports reports and detains migrants without a full blow trial. Anyone remember "kids on cages" that got AOC to cry about?

We hold foreigners accused of crimes in detention centers without a trial. See Guantanamo Bay.

You may not like it, but every country does this with non-citizens. So, what Israel is doing is no different than anyone else.

But Israel is held to a different standard.

-----

Regarding the list above ...

The Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) defines "children" as anyone under 19. The media has accepted this definition.

So when GHM claims 13,000 have been killed, and 5,000 were "children," the belief is the vast majority of these "children" were males between 15 and 18 that were either Jihadi or Hamas fighters. The vast majority of all killed were associated with Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and/or Hamas or a forced human shield.

Earlier, I posted that the Gaza Health Ministry stated that the policy is not to separate civilians from enemy combatants. They will let others figure this out after the fact.

The NY Times story above clearly states they are using "Gazan Official" data.  So, this is wrong as this poster relies on suspect data to validate his worldview.

I have it on good authority that the vast majority of those children are 15- to 18-year-old  soldiers.

Other estimates of the number of innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of Israeli attacks is small, in the 10 to 15% range of all killed (if we are to believe the total number of 13,000).

And recall that PIJ and Hamas rockets are not well constructed, so about 20% of them malfunction and land in Gaza. Estimates are these failed rockets that have killed as many innocent Palestinian civilians as Israel.

Where is the worldwide condemnation of the PIJ/Hamas rockets and UN resolutions to call on PIJ/Hamas to stop firing them to protect innocent Palestinians?


---


https://news.sky.com/story/the-palestinian-prisoners-who-could-be-released-by-israel-13013758

A list of the Palestinian prisoners who could be released has been published by the Israeli justice ministry.
Sky News has analysed the list and found:

Around 10% of the people on the list are women - 33 of them to be precise

A similar number aged 19 or over - meaning 90% of those on the list are aged 18 or under

Of those aged 18 or under, five are aged 14, six are 15-years-old, 37 are 16-years-old, 76 are 17-years-old and 146 are 18-years-old

One of the most well-known names on the list is Israa Jaabis. She was sentenced to more than 10 years in prison after a gas cylinder in her possession exploded at a police checkpoint.

The now 38-year-old gained media attention when she requested Israel pay for surgery to repair the burns and injuries she sustained during the fire.

The authorities turned down her request, according to Palestinian media agency, Alray.

The youngest of the 33 females is Nofoze Hammad, aged 15. Her offence is recorded as "attempted murder, support for terrorism, crimes against justice". Hammad was to serve a 12-year-sentence after stabbing a Jewish woman, according to local news reports.

The husband of Moriah Cohen, the woman hurt in the attack, told Channel 12: "The children were with my wife when she was stabbed and we promised them that they would never see her [Hammad] again and that she would be in prison for the rest of her life.

While none of the prisoners eligible for release were charged with murder, Hammad is one of 117 individuals who have "attempted murder" mentioned in the offences recorded next to their names.

Other offences include supporting terrorism, arson, handling explosives and throwing stones, with 74 individuals accused of using rocks to attack Israelis.

Half of those on the list do not have links with any specific organisations. Around 50 people are recorded as being associated with Hamas.

While 300 names have been published, a spokesperson for the Israeli Prime Minister's office confirmed to Sky News not all of the people on the list would be released.

"Since the deal says three Palestinian prisoners for each hostage, we are preparing 300 in case the terrorists will be kind enough to release 100 hostages, which even then will only mean 40% of them," he said.

[The Sultan]

The Palestinians in their prisons are not Israeli citizens. Their crimes were not even committed in Israel but were committed in the occupied land.

So, they are not subject to the same rights as an Israeli citizen. So, the argument about due process does not apply to them. It applies to citizens only.

Every democracy does this. The US reports reports and detains migrants without a full blow trial. Anyone remember "kids on cages" that got AOC to cry about?

We hold foreigners accused of crimes in detention centers without a trial. See Guantanamo Bay.

You may not like it, but every country does this with non-citizens. So, what Israel is doing is no different than anyone else.

But Israel is held to a different standard.

Once again you have managed to be wrong. About your own country nonetheless.

If an immigrant, either documented or non-documented, or even a visiting foreign national, is arrested for allegedly committing a crime at either the state or federal level, they are afforded due process of law and other protections as outlined in the US Constitution.

Of course you are introducing two different items in here in an attempt to make your point, but they of course aren't apples to apples.  What AOC was talking about was detention of migrants.  Migrants are detained at the border yes, but that's until they are processed and either released or denied entry - that's not a criminal proceeding.  They aren't arrested. They can actually apply for "voluntary departure" at anytime and leave the country.

And Guantanamo Bay is about a category of terrorist suspects labelled "enemy combatants." In fact the reason they are held at Gitmo is because if those same people were on US soil, they would be subject to due process.  Other terrorist suspects, such as those involved in the 1993 World Center bombing, were tried in US Courts and afforded due process the entire time.  Most, if not all, were not American citizens

Honestly your statement is so absurdly wrong its laughable.  Oh and the idea that Israel is held to a different standard is also laughable - do you somehow think that the situation at Gitmo is without controversy?

[forgetful]

Appreciate both the question and your complimentary phrasing of it.

As to the question, my answer is two fold.  On one hand, I think the evidence present by Israel is a bit insufficient, but, Ive frankly viewed it as teaser info.  Not "this is all we have" but more "this is touching the surface of what we've found/what we know about".

But also, I agree with your last paragraph, I'm willing to discuss it in the hypothetical because I'm just a nobody civilian on a messageboard.  I firmly believe that the IDF/Mossad knows far more than what we've been given and they have very little need or responsibility to share more during active military operations.  Many who seem to need to take everything at immediate face value or think that Israel should be sharing EVERYTHING seem to be doing so as a way to continue to negatively frame Israel as merchants of wanton violence and gleeful genocide.

Ive said it before, but again, if Israel wanted to or felt it prudent for their goals, they could (and have) wipe out city blocks.  They've obliterated houses to get to Hamas leaders, collateral damage be damned.  I think they've approached Al Shifa cautiously for a variety of reasons.

Going back to the Hamas PR quip I made earlier, Ive become more and more convinced and ingrained in the idea that there are 3 parties at play here.  Israel, Palestinians, and Hamas.  Unfortunately, many MANY people refuse to make that distinction.  Some people are happy to lump Palestinians in with Hamas to vilify them, while some people are more than happy to scoop Hamas into a group with Palestinians to victimize and excuse them.  Hell, I saw people praising Hamas yesterday for their kind and exemplary treatment of hostages 

I take Israel/IDF reports with a grain of salt.  I like to weigh a variety of news reports/NGO statements in regards to the Palestinians in Gaza.  I'm completely fine saying I believe almost nothing that Hamas or their fugazi Gazan government agencies say unless verified by an outlet I actually trust.

I agree with all of this. I think the bolded is important, and agree that the latter aspect is frightening. I've heard people do similar things.

Also, great use of the word "Fugazi."

[Mutaman]

Do you think warnings of terrorism in the US are a joke?

If they come from a a right winger who provides no evidence in support of her post and who has a history of posting false conspiracy theories -absolutely.
Check her thread: Warning of terrorism on 11/22. 4 subsequent posts on Hunter Biden dick pictures. Then an inconclusive report by Catherine on 11/23 about the Rainbow bridge incident.
Since then nada- I guess its now safe to go outside.

https://nitter.net/CBS_Herridge

[Mutaman]

Do you think drinking from the firehouse of right wing media and proclaiming suspected terror attacks on the Canadien border is a joke?

I know it's true, oh, so true 'cause I saw it on TV

[rocket surgeon]

If they come from a a right winger who provides no evidence in support of her post and who has a history of posting false conspiracy theories -absolutely.
Check her thread: Warning of terrorism on 11/22. 4 subsequent posts on Hunter Biden dick pictures. Then an inconclusive report by Catherine on 11/23 about the Rainbow bridge incident.
Since then nada- I guess its now safe to go outside.

https://nitter.net/CBS_Herridge

  kinda like all that horse hockey 'bout global blah blah and jan 6 mostly peaceful riots then eyn'a?