Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Hards Alumni]

To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.

But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.

And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.

And none of this means I am antisemetic.

The trouble with arguing with Heisey is he doesn't want to discuss anything in good faith.  He takes your argument, and then assumes you mean something else, and then pounces on that idea. 

It isn't a good use of anyone's time to even acknowledge what he's saying.  Muggsy is very different, he's just an emotional person who hasn't thought through his ideas.

[Hards Alumni]

I'm not concerned with leaving vacuums.  I would deal with the next round of scumbags quickly as well.  If they continue to ruthlessly attack innocent people the results won't change, they'll no longer exist.  As far as the middle east in particular long-term?  We may have to be a bit anachronistic and upset a few people.

I guess you missed the part where I said you can't kill an ideology with a gun.

[tower912]

It isn't a good use of anyone's time to even acknowledge what he's saying. 

On ignore since the end of June.    So, we agree.

[Hards Alumni]

Tower,

I'm truly not thrilled about this option, or dominating the world to the level I'm suggesting, but tbe alternative may very well be way, way, way, worse.  We have a right to protect humanity imo as we did close to 80 yrs ago.

You believe that an attack on Israel could spill over to nonstop attacks everywhere in the world without US intervention?  Why does this conflict matter more than the other atrocities going on in the world right now?

[tower912]

That statement ties into Muggsy's belief that the US and Allies should have turned on Stalin at the end of WWII.    It is a consistent ideology.   One that the US has a responsibility, a duty, to eradicate perceived evil in the world through military might and impose its own will in the new colonies it will create.   

[Hards Alumni]

That statement ties into Muggsy's belief that the US and Allies should have turned on Stalin at the end of WWII.    It is a consistent ideology.   One that the US has a responsibility, a duty, to eradicate perceived evil in the world through military might and impose its own will in the new colonies it will create.   

Well that tracks because he is easily swayed by propaganda.  American Exceptionalism made human.

[The Sultan]

Oh, he has a plan. Unfortunately Scoopers are treating this insane asshat with kid gloves while he calls for the U.S. to go on a global reign of terror and murder millions of people.

All in the name of potentially saving thousands of lives. It's amazing actually.

[21Jumpstreet]

Card carrying member of the Scoop 10, aina?

So 4E, while I don't appreciate this continued line of yours, I have to admit, I've given your thoughts and words a lot of credence over the last few days. I don't like the feeling of being labeled an antisemite, selfish for sure. So, I started thinking of it in terms of how I have evolved in my views of racism towards Black people over the years. I've challenged myself over and over with the way I was raised, why I think the way I do, how my words/thoughts/actions/arguments could be viewed as casual racism, or even overt racism.

So, because I admittedly let you get under my skin (specifically chosen words), I decided to start putting in the same effort into antisemitism knowledge as I put into racism against Black people (which you may deem antisemitic as it's clear I have not done enough up to this point in my life, I can accept that). And, perhaps you're right, perhaps calling out the actions of the Israeli government with or without context is antisemitic. Perhaps stating with or without context leaning pro-Palestine free state is antisemitic. Perhaps me even using the "token-Jewish family members/friend trope" is antisemitic. So, while I hate to hear it, I'll take your criticisms to heart. It would be helpful if when you call me an antisemite to tell me why you feel that way or why I am being that way. I realize it's not your job, so I totally get it if you give me the wake the F up Muggsy treatment and tell me to figure it out on my own.

Be well 4E, I appreciate when you offer thoughtful and insightful posts.

[Jockey]

Look back to how the Allies handled the end and aftermath of World War II. Rather than punishing the Axis powers, the propped up Japan and Germany, learning from the mistakes of the post-WWI fallout that led Germany right back to war less than 2 decades later. Those countries became industrial, economic, and democratic powers. They became some of our most important allies in the generations to come. Helping our enemies created allies.

But what else did we do? We dropped bombs to send a warning to the Soviet Union. That led to them pursuing the atomic bomb themselves, the Cold War, and our biggest geopolitical enemy for generations. We also bombed Palestinians out of their homes and helped create what turned into an apartheid state in Israel. Rather than the Allies being willing to cede territory of their own for a new Jewish home state, they deliberately created the situation that led to where we are now.

None of this excuses Hamas. What they did was terrible, awful, evil. But if the response is to raze Gaza, to punish 2 million Palestinians for the actions of a minority, we WILL create a bigger problem down the line. Because that is flawed thinking born out by generations of matching violence with violence. Give them the opportunity to thrive, like we did with Germany and Japan, and they will thrive. Give them hate and they will revisit that hate on you.

While I agree with your overall point in your post, you ignored one very important thing.

We eliminated the entire leadership of Germany and Japan before we helped them rebuild.

The same must be done with Hamas before we even think about helping rebuild in the Gaza Strip. To spend money rebuilding there now is insane. We would just be handing $$$ to Hamas.

[Hards Alumni]

So 4E, while I don't appreciate this continued line of yours, I have to admit, I've given your thoughts and words a lot of credence over the last few days. I don't like the feeling of being labeled an antisemite, selfish for sure. So, I started thinking of it in terms of how I have evolved in my views of racism towards Black people over the years. I've challenged myself over and over with the way I was raised, why I think the way I do, how my words/thoughts/actions/arguments could be viewed as casual racism, or even overt racism.

So, because I admittedly let you get under my skin (specifically chosen words), I decided to start putting in the same effort into antisemitism knowledge as I put into racism against Black people (which you may deem antisemitic as it's clear I have not done enough up to this point in my life, I can accept that). And, perhaps you're right, perhaps calling out the actions of the Israeli government with or without context is antisemitic. Perhaps stating with or without context leaning pro-Palestine free state is antisemitic. Perhaps me even using the "token-Jewish family members/friend trope" is antisemitic. So, while I hate to hear it, I'll take your criticisms to heart. It would be helpful if when you call me an antisemite to tell me why you feel that way or why I am being that way. I realize it's not your job, so I totally get it if you give me the wake the F up Muggsy treatment and tell me to figure it out on my own.

Be well 4E, I appreciate when you offer thoughtful and insightful posts.

Problem is that is like 5 or 6 in about as many years.

[Hards Alumni]

While I agree with your overall point in your post, you ignored one very important thing.

We eliminated the entire leadership of Germany and Japan before we helped them rebuild.

The same must be done with Hamas before we even think about helping rebuild in the Gaza Strip. To spend money rebuilding there now is insane. We would just be handing $$$ to Hamas.

He never said we shouldn't eliminate Hamas.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

All in the name of potentially saving thousands of lives. It's amazing actually.

I figured it out. Muggsy is Peacemaker!

[Heisenberg]

To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.

But that doesn't mean that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians, particularly over the last couple of decades, has been defensible.

And it doesn't mean that the Balfour Declaration, which was short term policy to encourage WWI support v. the Ottoman Empire, was a good idea. In retrospect it's been a bit of a disaster.

And none of this means I am antisemetic.

What do you object to?

[The Sultan]

What do you object to?

Their expansion of settlements in the West Bank. It shows that they aren't really negotiating with Palestinians in good faith. 

[Heisenberg]

Looks like you said the silent part (you believe in) out loud. While the people you continuously accuse of hate, advocate for saving lives everywhere. You have directly posted, that in your opinion BOTH sides want to ELIMINATE each other.

And, you advocate then for eliminating the Palestinians as the only route to peace.

You directly state, what you accuse others of secretly believing.

Meanwhile, everyone else, you accuse of such vile ideology, renounce it, and instead believe that the Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to establishing independent states in the holy land, and can both live and coexist in peace with a proper peace plan establishing two-states with borders based on something like the 1967, 1969 borders.

If you had actually read my original post (everything in the post has been subsequently posted on here in shorter and more succinct and better worded ways). It said the problem was people who believe like you and Hamas do. That the only way to peace is to annihilate the other side, and to unify all of the region under one sides rule, strictly based on religious beliefs.

That belief is abhorrent, and is the cause of decades of violence.

I did not say both sides had to eliminate each other. I said the way to get peace, as it has been throughout human history, is for one side to win an unconditional surrender over the other.

What is happening now, the status quo, is both sides eliminating each other.

Why did we nuke Japan twice and instantly kill over 100,000 innocent Japanese civilians? Was that a war crime? I do not recall seeing Truman in the Hague being prosecuted.

It was done because it was a message to tell the Japanese to stop. They did, and unconditional surrender was signed on the Missouri a month later.

So why were over 100,000 civilians killed to get the Japanese to stop? The estimates were between one and two million would have been killed attacking the Japanese Mainland. So, this was the least bad option.

Similarly, CNN is reporting the ground war is imminent. The fight has broken out on the Isreal-Lebanon border. It is about to get ugly real fast.

I see what is about to happen as the least bad option. So does President Biden and the European leaders that green-lighted Israel's right to defend itself. 

These world leaders knew what was about to happen. Question: Are all of you who say Israel has the right to defend itself that what is about to happen okay?

How about you? If not, what does "Israel has the right to defend itself" mean?

To follow this up, Israel clearly has a right to exist and defend itself.

[Heisenberg]

The trouble with arguing with Heisey is he doesn't want to discuss anything in good faith.  He takes your argument, and then assumes you mean something else, and then pounces on that idea. 

It isn't a good use of anyone's time to even acknowledge what he's saying.  Muggsy is very different, he's just an emotional person who hasn't thought through his ideas.

Snowflake talk ... words mean what I personally want them to mean, not what they are understood to mean in the real world.

[MUBurrow]

Snowflake talk ... words mean what I personally want them to mean, not what they are understood to mean in the real world.

Who wants to tell him he's actually the one who takes people's words to mean what he wants them to mean, not what they mean in the real world? (That's why he always feels he's being ganged up on - because everyone all says "yeah no that's not what those words mean.")

[Heisenberg]

Their expansion of settlements in the West Bank. It shows that they aren't really negotiating with Palestinians in good faith.

It is their ancestral land: Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Pesach, and Hag Hamatzot, where Passover began.  The West Bank is where Judaism started, a thousand years before Islam.

So, what is your objection to Jews in Jewish land?

Why are the Palestinians unable to share the land with Israel?

----

What is the Palestinian group Israel negotiates with? What is their current position?

Why did the Palestinians walk away from the Olso peace accords in the early 1990s. A two-state solution was on the table.

Could the answer be the Palestinians, or at least their leaders, are not interested in a two-state solution? They are anti-Zionist and want the destruction of Israel and the elimination of all Jews.

[Heisenberg]

Who wants to tell him he's actually the one who takes people's words to mean what he wants them to mean, not what they mean in the real world? (That's why he always feels he's being ganged up on - because everyone all says "yeah no that's not what those words mean.")

Be specific. What words do you think the real world has a different meaning?

[MUBurrow]

Be specific. What words do you think the real world has a different meaning?

What is your question even asking?

[Heisenberg]

Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah El-Sisi has pushed back against the idea of taking in Palestinian refugees on the grounds that doing so might allow Hamas fighters into Egypt. He and other Arab leaders have also said displacing people from Gaza would end hopes for a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-21/aid-crosses-into-gaza-for-first-time-since-war-began-tv-reports


What is the two-state solution they are proposing? Answer: none.

They view the Palasteisninas as dangerous (might allow Hamas fighters into Egypt ... Hamas is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which has already tried to overthrow the Egyptian government at least once), and El-Sisi thinks they are more valuable as human shields to get slaughtered by the Israelis.

Israelis seem to care more about the Palestinians than the rest of the Arab world.

Or, here is their solution on who should take in two million Palestinians.
Again, Isreal cares more about Palestinians than the Arab World.


Egypt's Leader Says Israel Should Take In People Fleeing Gaza
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-18/egypt-rejects-any-attempt-to-move-gaza-palestinians-to-sinai
Egypt's leader said Israel should be the one to take in Palestinians, rejecting any idea that his country could host Gazans displaced by the fighting between Israel and Hamas.

[Hards Alumni]

It is their ancestral land: Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Pesach, and Hag Hamatzot, where Passover began.  The West Bank is where Judaism started, a thousand years before Islam.  Who cares?  Should the US give all of the US back to the indigenous First People?  Before Judaism, there was still people in the area, do they have a better claim and should Israel cede it to them?

So, what is your objection to Jews in Jewish land? None

Why are the Palestinians unable to share the land with Israel?  They have been, but settlers have been destroying Palestinian home in the West Bank and taking their land by force.

----

What is the Palestinian group Israel negotiates with? What is their current position? Depends on the area, Hamas and the PA.  Current position on what?  Israel's existence?

Why did the Palestinians walk away from the Olso peace accords in the early 1990s. A two-state solution was on the table. Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine


Could the answer be the Palestinians, or at least their leaders, are not interested in a two-state solution? They are anti-Zionist and want the destruction of Israel and the elimination of all Jews.  Surely not all Palestinians.  You're not blinded enough to actually think that.

[Heisenberg]

What is your question even asking?

I think I misread you ... apologies.

[The Sultan]

It is their ancestral land: Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Pesach, and Hag Hamatzot, where Passover began.  The West Bank is where Judaism started, a thousand years before Islam.

So, what is your objection to Jews in Jewish land?

It is their ancestral land. It is indeed where Judaism started.

Neither of those things matter now. It is not Israel's legal territory. And Ariel Sharon rejected the Roadmap for Peace brokered by GWB because he refused to halt settlements. So you can't claim that it's only Palestine.

[Heisenberg]

It is their ancestral land. It is indeed where Judaism started.

Neither of those things matter now. It is not Israel's legal territory. And Ariel Sharon rejected the Roadmap for Peace brokered by GWB because he refused to halt settlements. So you can't claim that it's only Palestine.

Legal under want law?

This gets back to my position... peace comes about when one side prevails over the other.  Until that happens, this never ends.