Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

I don't understand what you want. You want HAMAS eliminated, but you don't support that Israel is trying to eliminate them.

Rather than speaking in generalities (and nobody wants innocent civilians to die except for the usual nuts on Scoop), what would YOU do to eliminate HAMAS?

Send in the dentists to broker peace talks

[4everwarriors]

Feed 'em rat poison, aina?

[jesmu84]

I don't understand what you want. You want HAMAS eliminated, but you don't support that Israel is trying to eliminate them.

Rather than speaking in generalities (and nobody wants innocent civilians to die except for the usual nuts on Scoop), what would YOU do to eliminate HAMAS?

Eliminating Hamas =\= killing innocent Palestinians

[Jockey]

Eliminating Hamas =\= killing innocent Palestinians

Yes, you keep saying and I think most here agree.

Yet you still won't tell us what you would do to eliminate HAMAS. It's way easier to be against something than to come up with an actual plan.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

I think cynicism about the IDF and its priorities comes from photos like this, in large English letters. Catering to a western US audience (that's where the funding comes from after all). Between that and the story about Al Shifa changing over and over; It's hard as a distant observer to take that in good faith. (I know war is foggy, etc etc).

If this is their prioritization in a desperate humanitarian situation, what reason is there to think differently that it's just them flashing a brief empty gesture of their humanitarian obligations before continuing the recklessness?

[jesmu84]

Yes, you keep saying and I think most here agree.

Yet you still won't tell us what you would do to eliminate HAMAS. It's way easier to be against something than to come up with an actual plan.

I'm not a military general.

But I can't imagine the only choices are do nothing vs kill everyone

[JWags85]

I'm not a military general.

But I can't imagine the only choices are do nothing vs kill everyone

But they aren't "killing everyone".  There are 2.3MM people in Gaza, over 6000 per square KM, recent estimates are 11,000 killed.  Since that is coming from Hamas, we don't know the mix of Hamas/PIJ fighters and civilians (purposefully so).

Again, not to be Facebook meme-ish, but if Israel's goal was mass murder/genocide/extermination of Palestinians while fighting Hamas, they aren't doing a great job of it.

Like Jockey said, all of us agree that as few civilians casualties as absolutely possible is what is desired, but hot take anti-Israel headlines would have you believe that the Palestinian population has been decimated. 

Average population growth in Gaza has historically been around 70K people a year the past decade or so.  Again, its not, oh F' em, there are plenty left, its just perspective that is sorely lacking.

[Pakuni]

But they aren't "killing everyone".  There are 2.3MM people in Gaza, over 6000 per square KM, recent estimates are 11,000 killed. 

Muggsy wants to know what this would extrapolate to if it were the U.S. population.
(Answer: Almost 1.6 million)

[Heisenberg]

Bombing a hospital is a war crime, right? Anyone who does this should be hauled before the Hague and tried, correct?

Or, bombing hospitals and killing civilians is perfectly acceptable as long as Jews do not do it?  Otherwise, what is the difference?

----

December 29, 2016
US military says Mosul airstrike may have killed civilians at hospital
Van carrying Isis fighters was target of US-led coalition airstrike
US military: 'The van was struck in ... a hospital compound parking lot'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/29/us-military-mosul-airstrike-civilians-casualties-hospital

An airstrike by the US-led coalition operating against Islamic State militants near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul hit a van in a hospital compound parking lot and may have killed civilians, the US military said on Thursday.

A van carrying Isis fighters was targeted and hit in the airstrike, the Combined Joint Strike Force said in a statement.

"The van was struck in what was later determined to be a hospital compound parking lot resulting in possible civilian casualties," it said.

Earlier this month, the US said it had targeted a hospital complex in Mosul which was being used by Isis fighters.

In the past two years airstrikes from US, Russian and Saudi planes have hit hospitals in Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen and Iraq, and caused many civilian casualties.

Fighting continued in eastern Mosul on Thursday, as Iraqi troops backed by airstrikes and artillery broke a two-week lull in fighting with a multi-pronged assault.

-----

December 9, 2016

US Military Admits: We Deliberately Bombed a Hospital in Iraq
Military spokesperson says "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that no civilians were killed

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/12/09/us-military-admits-we-deliberately-bombed-hospital-iraq

The U.S. military said Thursday that it intentionally bombed a hospital in Mosul, Iraq as part of its efforts to "eradicate" Islamic State (ISIS) fighters.

The attack on the Al Salam hospital complex took place Wednesday at the request of Iraqi forces, with coalition aircraft using "precision-guided munitions," Air Force Col. John Dorrian, spokesperson for the U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, told reporters.

He said "it's very difficult to ascertain with full and total fidelity" that there were no civilian casualties, whether in the building targeted or elsewhere within the hospital complex.

ISIS fighters, Dorrian said, "were using the facility to fire heavy machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades at the Iraqi security forces in the area." The strike on the "normally protected facility" allowed the Iraqi forces "to fall back to a more defensible position," he said.

The "protection of civilians," he said later in the press conference, "has been a centerpiece, a foundational element of the campaign to liberate Mosul."

The military is not carrying out an investigation but rather an "assessment" of the strike, the spokesperson added.

[Heisenberg]

As long as Jews don't do it, no biggie ...

December 20, 2017
More than 9,000 killed in battle for Mosul: AP
AP investigation reveals nearly 10 times higher civilian casualty rate than previously reported in nine-month battle.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/20/more-than-9000-killed-in-battle-for-mosul-ap

Between 9,000 and 11,000 people were killed in the nine-month battle to recapture the Iraqi city of Mosul from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant group (ISIL), an Associated Press (AP) investigation has found.

The civilian casualty rate is nearly 10 times higher than that previously reported.

[Uncle Rico]

More Elon anti-semitism at X

https://x.com/eladnehorai/status/1724925699629404292?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q

[jesmu84]

Those incidences were bad too

[MuggsyB]

Muggsy wants to know what this would extrapolate to if it were the U.S. population.
(Answer: Almost 1.6 million)

Cut the nonsense Pakuni. 

[The Sultan]

Cut the nonsense Pakuni. 

If you held yourself to this same standard, you would have stopped posting in this topic weeks ago.

[Pakuni]

Cut the nonsense Pakuni.

I'm just applying your logic.
Which, yes, is nonsense. Glad you figured it out.

[MuggsyB]

I'm just applying your logic.
Which, yes, is nonsense. Glad you figured it out.

No, you are not.  A country and people were viciously slaughtered and are responding.  The comparison is to 9-11-01, not collateral damage because Hamas terrorists are utter filth.  They are responsible, period.  Now, if you want to disagree with me do so with regards to the fact that I would preemptively completely eliminate Hezbollah.  I understand many disagree with this and can take some constructive criticism. 

[Jockey]

More Elon anti-semitism at X

https://x.com/eladnehorai/status/1724925699629404292?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q

I expect nothing less from this maggot.

[MU82]

More Elon anti-semitism at X

https://x.com/eladnehorai/status/1724925699629404292?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q

He's one of the right's heroes now, so he can't possibly be a raging anti-Semite who needs to be called out. Much easier to call to silence 19-year-old college kids than someone with influence over millions. Much easier to put the anti-Semite label on Scoopers who disagree with you than on "vermin" like Musk, Tucker, Jewish Space Laser, Gosar and the 91-felony Criminal Defendant.

[Uncle Rico]

I expect nothing less from this maggot.

Is anyone buying a Tesla moving forward supporting anti-semitism?  The answer is yes

[Pakuni]

No, you are not.  A country and people were viciously slaughtered and are responding.  The comparison is to 9-11-01, not collateral damage because Hamas terrorists are utter filth.  They are responsible, period.  Now, if you want to disagree with me do so with regards to the fact that I would preemptively completely eliminate Hezbollah.  I understand many disagree with this and can take some constructive criticism.

No one said anything about responsibility, Muggs.
I was just pointing out the asinine measuring of an atrocity by percentage of population.  1,400 people killed in Israel is no different than 1,400 people killed in America or 1,400 people killed in China. The value of a human life doesn't change based on the size of the country in which that person happens to live. An Israeli life is no more or less valuable than that of any other nationality.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

He's one of the right's heroes now, so he can't possibly be a raging anti-Semite who needs to be called out. Much easier to call to silence 19-year-old college kids than someone with influence over millions. Much easier to put the anti-Semite label on Scoopers who disagree with you than on "vermin" like Musk, Tucker, Jewish Space Laser, Gosar and the 91-felony Criminal Defendant.

Eloon leaves something to be desired re his antisemitism, but he is just a pawn, far down the ladder.

So sayeth the drooling dentist.

[forgetful]

jes, I respect you and believe you are fair-handed. How do you think Israel should root out and eliminate a large, well-funded, well-armed terrorist organization that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? A group that started this mess by launching a surprise terrorist attack that killed 1,400 Israelis and took women and children hostages? A group that doesn't care about sacrificing its own people to martyrdom?

I'm open-minded. I'd love to hear a really good plan to eliminate Hamas while also harming zero (or close to it) innocents.

However, if the plan is, "Well, it isn't that important to eliminate Hamas," I'm less open-minded to that. Because Hamas won't stop as long as it has a beating heart.

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it is an interesting and extremely difficult question, but part of the question misses key aspects.

First, although I've been brandished by some here as something different. I'm very pro-Israeli, although I also recognize and appreciate the plight of the Palestinian people. One can be supportive of the rights of each. Where I'm critical of Israel, is really criticism of the Likud Party and similar like minded, or even more extreme Far-Right political parties in Israel, who I think have greatly contributed to the current untenable situation.

So asking how one would go about eliminating the horrific Hamas terror network is in my opinion an incomplete question. It only looks at what to do now (some ideas later), and neglects all the actions that led up to this point. Quite frankly, the world shouldn't have let this situation get to the point it is now.

Now, some probably very poor ideas of how Hamas could be eliminated in a more just manner.

1) Israel should not be fighting Hamas alone, it is guaranteed to fail. It validates the Us vs. Them struggle (persecution) that is a cornerstone of both religions. The seemingly indiscriminate attacks will galvanize another generation of individuals hell-bent on getting revenge and attacking Israel. Instead, a coalition should have been created, and every avenue should have been attempted to include possible Arab countries in the coalition.

2) To gain support by Arab countries, and to change the image of the War, Israel should have worked towards a plan for a 2-state solution upon the elimination of Hamas, likely involving coalition forces, led by Arab nations (maybe Saudi Arabia) that would remain behind until internal government structures could be created to maintain order (maybe 10-20 years). US pressure on Arab allies, like Saudi Arabia, may have been able to get them to buy in, under the understanding of it leading to a 2-state solution. This would allow Israel and the coalition to look more like liberators than attackers, and would avoid the image of this being an Israel vs. the Palestinians issue.

3) Open checkpoints into Israel before invasion, to allow primarily Palestinian women and children refugees to settle in UN led refugee camps on Israeli soil, to minimize the number of civilian deaths, primarily amongst woman and children. Again, this looks like concessions to the Palestinian people, and compassion for their lives, changing the narrative of the war. It also is letting Palestinians onto Israeli soil, which would not look like evicting them from their homes (e.g. another Nakba)

4) When they went in on the ground, any/all areas cleared of Hamas should have been immediately turned into refugee zones, with medical, food, water, everything provided for those that were trapped, so that they could stay safely in Gaza. Again, these could be led/operated by the UN. Surrounding a hospital with people dying on mass inside, including infants, while not providing life saving resources is not ok, period. They knew they needed 1000's of liters of fuel per day, instead they brought useless incubators (they already had incubators)

5) Don't be bombing hospitals. If there is a command center under the hospital encircle it, they know where the entry points to tunnels are. Smoke them out, or collapse every possible entrance/exit and let them die underground. The bombing accomplished nothing but making Israel look bad and killing innocent civilians.

Similarly, you cannot bomb residential complexes, because a Hamas member lives in that complex. That is a war crime.

Don't bomb a convoy of ambulances with patients in it, even after the hospital contacted the Red Cross notifying them of patients being evacuated...immediately after Israel told them to evacuate patients via ambulance. And many other similar aspects that likely had minimal operational benefit, but created significantly negative public images.

All of the above, or mixtures of the above might have taken longer to get set up and in place, but it would have had a better chance of having a lasting affect. The approach Israel took, is reactionary (understandably), and one of the least likely to have a lasting affect (going 100% Muggsy on them would have been worse).

Note: I prefer to have a lot of time to write posts like this one so that there can be more nuance to a complicated topic, so I'd appreciate some leeway on it not being polished.

Also, I realize these likely wouldn't work. But the current plan is also guaranteed to fail longterm. If we want to eliminate horrific organizations like Hamas long-term, we need to think outside of the box, and rectify problems that led to their formation to begin with.

[MU82]

I appreciate you taking the time to write that post, forgetful.

The part that focuses on past transgressions (and/or perceptions of them) is now ancient history and does nothing about what to do to eliminate Hamas.

As for that, you make some reasonable suggestions, but most if not all might not be feasible in 1. a war zone and 2. in a war against a terror organization that will NEVER play by the rules. Everything Hamas does is a "war crime," and there is nobody to hold them accountable. They laugh at the UN or the United States or the "West" dictating any terms to them.

The best hope IMHO is that Israeli forces take still more care in trying to avoid civilian casualties than they already are. But I'm no military strategist - nobody here is - so I really don't know what that entails.

Thanks again, take care, and peace.

[Heisenberg]

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it is an interesting and extremely difficult question, but part of the question misses key aspects.

First, although I've been brandished by some here as something different. I'm very pro-Israeli, although I also recognize and appreciate the plight of the Palestinian people. One can be supportive of the rights of each. Where I'm critical of Israel, is really criticism of the Likud Party and similar like minded, or even more extreme Far-Right political parties in Israel, who I think have greatly contributed to the current untenable situation.

So asking how one would go about eliminating the horrific Hamas terror network is in my opinion an incomplete question. It only looks at what to do now (some ideas later), and neglects all the actions that led up to this point. Quite frankly, the world shouldn't have let this situation get to the point it is now.

Now, some probably very poor ideas of how Hamas could be eliminated in a more just manner.

1) Israel should not be fighting Hamas alone, it is guaranteed to fail. It validates the Us vs. Them struggle (persecution) that is a cornerstone of both religions. The seemingly indiscriminate attacks will galvanize another generation of individuals hell-bent on getting revenge and attacking Israel. Instead, a coalition should have been created, and every avenue should have been attempted to include possible Arab countries in the coalition.

2) To gain support by Arab countries, and to change the image of the War, Israel should have worked towards a plan for a 2-state solution upon the elimination of Hamas, likely involving coalition forces, led by Arab nations (maybe Saudi Arabia) that would remain behind until internal government structures could be created to maintain order (maybe 10-20 years). US pressure on Arab allies, like Saudi Arabia, may have been able to get them to buy in, under the understanding of it leading to a 2-state solution. This would allow Israel and the coalition to look more like liberators than attackers, and would avoid the image of this being an Israel vs. the Palestinians issue.

3) Open checkpoints into Israel before invasion, to allow primarily Palestinian women and children refugees to settle in UN led refugee camps on Israeli soil, to minimize the number of civilian deaths, primarily amongst woman and children. Again, this looks like concessions to the Palestinian people, and compassion for their lives, changing the narrative of the war. It also is letting Palestinians onto Israeli soil, which would not look like evicting them from their homes (e.g. another Nakba)

4) When they went in on the ground, any/all areas cleared of Hamas should have been immediately turned into refugee zones, with medical, food, water, everything provided for those that were trapped, so that they could stay safely in Gaza. Again, these could be led/operated by the UN. Surrounding a hospital with people dying on mass inside, including infants, while not providing life saving resources is not ok, period. They knew they needed 1000's of liters of fuel per day, instead they brought useless incubators (they already had incubators)

5) Don't be bombing hospitals. If there is a command center under the hospital encircle it, they know where the entry points to tunnels are. Smoke them out, or collapse every possible entrance/exit and let them die underground. The bombing accomplished nothing but making Israel look bad and killing innocent civilians.

Similarly, you cannot bomb residential complexes, because a Hamas member lives in that complex. That is a war crime.

Don't bomb a convoy of ambulances with patients in it, even after the hospital contacted the Red Cross notifying them of patients being evacuated...immediately after Israel told them to evacuate patients via ambulance. And many other similar aspects that likely had minimal operational benefit, but created significantly negative public images.

All of the above, or mixtures of the above might have taken longer to get set up and in place, but it would have had a better chance of having a lasting affect. The approach Israel took, is reactionary (understandably), and one of the least likely to have a lasting affect (going 100% Muggsy on them would have been worse).

Note: I prefer to have a lot of time to write posts like this one so that there can be more nuance to a complicated topic, so I'd appreciate some leeway on it not being polished.

Also, I realize these likely wouldn't work. But the current plan is also guaranteed to fail longterm. If we want to eliminate horrific organizations like Hamas long-term, we need to think outside of the box, and rectify problems that led to their formation to begin with.

Thank you Secretary of State Forgetful for this well thought out plan to set the world on fire and get about 1 billion people killed.

1) Hanas wants a perpetual war with the West. So, let's introduced US troops so not only make it easier for Hamas to kill them, but further inflame the middle east. 

Israel can handle all by themselves. They don't need anyone's help.

2) are you not paying attention? The Arab countries already said no to this. Not interested.

3) Isreal is a democracy. As such those refugees will get to vote in local and national elections. This is a one state solution. Let in millions of Palestinian refugees so they can vote Hamas as their leadership and let them eliminate the Jewish race inside Israel's borders.

4) are you not paying attention. Isreal is doing this. Sorry the extreme progressive news outlets you read are not reporting it.

Isreal has set up field hositpals to transfers all the patients. They even have a neo-natal unit set up to transfer the infants. The problem is Hamas is shooting at the IDF in the halls when they try and evacuate them and have threaten to kill them, sorry sacrifice these infant Maytrs.

Buy hey wrote another 500 word post about supposed Isreali war crimes and conveniently ignore actual Hamas war crimes. And be sure to remain completely uninterested is the Isreali infant hostages held by Hamas.

Now we get to General Forgetful military strategy portion...

5) Israel does not bomb hospitals, and have not. Your confusing them with Obama in 2016 (posts above). He bombs hospitals.

And why do you think injecting poison gas into a hospital is a good idea and not a war crime? Or, general Forgetful, did you miss that class at West point when they explained what "smoke them out" means?

Isreal does not bomb residences, it does not bomb ambulances, again that would be Obama (Post above). What it does is attack Military targets and takes the utmost care to minimize civilian casualities. Where are your posts condemning human shields purposely put in harms way?

In sum not so just another anti-zionist a screed from a guy that claims to be a Zionist.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Eloon leaves something to be desired re his antisemitism, but he is just a pawn, far down the ladder.

So sayeth the drooling dentist.

Too much novocaine