Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[4everwarriors]

Big difference between the black lives matter social awareness movement and BLM, Inc., hey?

[Pakuni]

Big difference between the black lives matter social awareness movement and BLM, Inc., hey?

Yep. And some people use their political differences with the latter to discard the important and necessary message of the former.

[JWags85]

I'm not shifting goal posts, my post has nothing to do with jes's post.  Not every response here is taking everything else into account.

We are in agreement, I just wish people would be in agreement with your first point instead of just the second.

I'm not saying you were, just in the progression of posts, you commented based off of the shift he made, all good.

And you're not wrong.  This situation demands nuance, and unfortunately it's in short supply.

I do find it curious that many of the same people that are so emphatic to state that Palestinians =\= Hamas (which I agree with) but yet want to blanket one side as good and evil, with Israel being evil, thus those fighting them are good, AKA Hamas 🤨. Cause they are actively going so far as not to condemn military action, but the country of Israel, it's existence, and very being as "colonists" as pure evil.

I do find it bizarre that randomly in the last 2-3 years, "colonist" has become a new du jour insult/negative label of the uninformed WIDE left.

[jesmu84]

Some good posts lately, wags

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Sure, why not. Things went so well in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The problem there was that we failed to take advantage of our superior nuclear arsenal and murderize every living thing before "annexing". Resistance would have been far less, and there would have been absolutely no blow back from the rest of the world (or they get it, too!)

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The BLM Movement has absolutely nothing to do with our country's history from slavery to the present.

This is roqqet level stupidity. Congratulations.

[MU82]

Yes, we have racists.  No one is denying that at all.  It's about whether we're a racist country as a whole and how you actually define that?  Has there been any progress?  Etc, Etc, Etc.

America is a country that has made progress on racial-equity issues -- progress that has been achieved in fits and starts, often with major steps backward after a step or two forward -- and we're also a country that continues to be dogged by systemic racism.

There is STILL redlining in housing, STILL rampant racism in policing, STILL educational policies that hold back minorities, etc etc etc. These are systemic problems, and those who deny they exist are part of the problem.

The black lives matter movement, among many others, has been trying to combat that.

There are some problems within BLM, the organization, which is unfortunate because it gives racists cover to deny what the black lives matter movement is trying to accomplish.

[Hards Alumni]

Big difference between the black lives matter social awareness movement and BLM, Inc., hey?

100%

[Hards Alumni]

I'm not saying you were, just in the progression of posts, you commented based off of the shift he made, all good.

And you're not wrong.  This situation demands nuance, and unfortunately it's in short supply.

I do find it curious that many of the same people that are so emphatic to state that Palestinians =\= Hamas (which I agree with) but yet want to blanket one side as good and evil, with Israel being evil, thus those fighting them are good, AKA Hamas 🤨. Cause they are actively going so far as not to condemn military action, but the country of Israel, it's existence, and very being as "colonists" as pure evil.

I do find it bizarre that randomly in the last 2-3 years, "colonist" has become a new du jour insult/negative label of the uninformed WIDE left.

My position is that the IDF is doing what it needs to do.  Also it is trying to mitigate IDF losses.  Which is understandable.  But there is a LOT of information out there about how seemingly reckless they're being with civilian lives.  Which is what is going to be the rub. 

And to be fair, the world ran on colonialism for a long time.  It has taken a long time to undo only a little of that.  Much of the global South and developing nations have legitimate beef.  It is okay for people to acknowledge that the modern world we live in was heavily built on colonialism and the repression of native peoples.  Is it to blame for all of the world's ills?  No of course not.

Additionally, Israel is a colony.  It is a Western country created from dispossessed land where there are still active illegal settlements occurring.  In 1948 was it a lawful colony?  I guess since those with power write the rules.  And since the Arabic population that resided in the area commonly referred to as Palestine (Palestinians) didn't have any real power, and were forced to do what they were told as a result.

[JWags85]

Some good posts lately, wags

Thanks, sincerely appreciated. 

Interestingly, I think Ive become more amenable to a true two state solution over the last couple years, especially now, but at the same time growing in respect and support of Israel.  The insane polarization of opinion over the last month has really sort of distilled things for me and helped me really find my footing opinion wise, and given me some decent subjectivity.   Watching the reactions of the un or ill-informed.  Watching my BIL who is a fervent lover and supporter of his home country, but not Bibi, find the very logical ground that exists between "I don't love Likud/the administration" and "I'm a Jew and am embarrassed by/don't support Israel", while also knowing the strong IDF response in some fashion was/is needed.

As this war continues, or hopefully comes to some form of resolution, I hope there are more like me.  The raging Twitter fingers/blind supporter protesters/klout hunting activists (and politicians) will disappear or move on to the next thing they believe they are supposed to rile up about.  But reasonable heads and perspectives on the next step in attempted peace will be needed.

[21Jumpstreet]

Given that we're footing a large chunk of the bill, we have every right.. If and when Israel stops taking our money and weapons, they can tell us to f--- off. Until then, they should pay heed.

This also crossed my mind. As someone who doesn't really support meddling in other countries affairs, I do understand we do support other countries militarily/financially. I wonder if people in the USA and the Western Progressives and Alllied countries would react the same way if their countries didn't militarily and financially support Israel. Muggs, are you suggesting the world should let Israel defend itself or go to war without the allied support it has? No money, no military supplies, no say?

Also, the only correct answer to Black lives matter is damn right.
The only correct answer to all lives matter is damn right.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

We have zero right to tell Israel how to defend themselves or put pressure on them to have a cease-fire.  Let them do what they have to do.  And frankly we also shouldn't be the ones deciding whatever happens down the road in Gaza.  I implore the State of Israel to annihilate every single Hanas terrorist scumbag and not allow this garbage to happen again or listen to the media pressure..  Now, as you know I would go much further, but this idea of a cease-fire is insanely idiotic and inexcusable.

Nm was already said

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

All bickering aside, this is fascinating



I wouldn't advise looking at the Wikipedia of the procedure at work

[MuggsyB]

This also crossed my mind. As someone who doesn't really support meddling in other countries affairs, I do understand we do support other countries militarily/financially. I wonder if people in the USA and the Western Progressives and Alllied countries would react the same way if their countries didn't militarily and financially support Israel. Muggs, are you suggesting the world should let Israel defend itself or go to war without the allied support it has? No money, no military supplies, no say?

Also, the only correct answer to Black lives matter is damn right.
The only correct answer to all lives matter is damn right.

Are we conducting the war in Ukraine? 

[MuggsyB]

Great to hear about the pro Israel rally in DC. 

[The Sultan]

Are we conducting the war in Ukraine? 

Conducting? No.  Advising? Most assuredly.

[Heisenberg]

I would argue that Israel needs to provide evidence that these schools/hospitals are indeed used as major military sites. Otherwise what they are doing is a war crime. The actions need to be investigated by independent individuals.

How about Jake Sullivan? Is he good enough as a neutral source?

When are you going to stop making excuses for genocidal terrorists?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/politics/al-shifa-hospital-us-intelligence/index.html

A US official with knowledge of American intelligence says Hamas has a command node under the Al-Shifa hospital, uses fuel intended for it and its fighters regularly cluster in and around Gaza's largest hospital.

The information comes after comments made Sunday by a top White House official that Hamas is using hospitals and civilian facilities.

"You can see even from open-source reporting that Hamas does use hospitals, along with a lot of other civilian facilities, for command-and-control, for storing weapons, for housing its fighters," National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on CNN's State of the Union. "Without getting into this specific hospital or that specific claim, this is Hamas' track record, both historically and in this conflict."

[MuggsyB]

Conducting? No.  Advising? Most assuredly.

That's fine.  Israel needs to get these guys.  For their sake, the Palestinians sake, as well as the entire world frankly. 

[Pakuni]

Fox News is broadcasting expert analysis on the Israel-Hamas conflict from noted foreign policy guru ... Fabio?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/for-israel-hamas-war-expertise-fox-turns-to-fabio

[reinko]

That's fine.  Israel needs to get these guys.  For their sake, the Palestinians sake, as well as the entire world frankly.

Perhaps Jack Bauer or Denzel can secretly relay your 5 (or is it now 6), point plan.  Clearly you aren't doing enough to support the Israelis keeping your plan secret.

[21Jumpstreet]

Are we conducting the war in Ukraine?

Not following what you're getting at. What about Israel acts and exists on its own with no foreign intervention. Different reactions?

[JWags85]

All bickering aside, this is fascinating



I wouldn't advise looking at the Wikipedia of the procedure at work

Israel has long been a leader in the tech and medical space.  I actually knew a couple biomed engineers who worked for Israeli startups that were based in Tel Aviv, but operated in the US early on cause they had the ideas/parents, but it was easier to find engineering talent in the US initially.

Kind of a neat karmic 180 a few generations after the medical horrors during the Holocaust

[Heisenberg]

Hamas tells you what they want: permanent war with Israel. They got it and did not care about the death of their people (sacrificed martyrs).

And yet, all the discussion here is about supposed Israeli war crimes.

What is a proportional response when this is what your enemy wants?

----

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html

To much of the outside world, Hamas's decision to murder hundreds of Israelis and trigger a war that has since killed many thousands of its own people looks like a historic miscalculation — one that could soon result in the destruction of Hamas itself.

Hamas's leaders, however, say that it was the result of a deliberate calculation.

Ben Hubbard, the Istanbul bureau chief for The New York Times, has been reporting on their decision, and what went into it.

Since the shocking Hamas attack on Oct. 7, in which Israel says about 1,400 people were killed — most of them civilians — and more than 240 others dragged back to Gaza as captives, the group's leaders have praised the operation, with some hoping it will set off a sustained conflict that ends any pretense of coexistence among Israel, Gaza and the countries around them.

"I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us," Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The Times.

The weeks since have seen a furious Israeli response that has killed more than 10,000 people in Gaza, according to health officials there. But for Hamas, the attack stemmed from a growing sense that the Palestinian cause was being pushed aside, and that only drastic action could revive it.

----

On the surface, the months before the brutal assault seemed relatively quiet in Gaza. Hamas had sat out recent clashes between Israel and other militants, and the group's political leaders were a thousand miles away in Qatar, negotiating to get more aid and jobs for residents of the impoverished territory.

But the frustration was building. Hamas leaders in Gaza were flooded with images of Israeli settlers attacking Palestinians in the West Bank, Jews openly praying at a contested site customarily reserved for Muslims, and the Israeli police storming the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, a touchstone for Palestinian claims to the holy city. The prospect of Israel's normalizing ties with Saudi Arabia, long a deep-pocketed patron of the Palestinian cause, appeared closer than ever.

Then, on a quiet Saturday morning, Hamas attacked.

It was clear in advance that Israel would respond by bombarding Gaza, killing Palestinian civilians.

"What could change the equation was a great act, and without a doubt, it was known that the reaction to this great act would be big," Mr. al-Hayya said.

But, he added, "We had to tell people that the Palestinian cause would not die."

[jesmu84]

Contrasting choices/actions of a terrorist group to a Democratic nation-state is interesting.

[MU82]

Contrasting choices/actions of a terrorist group to a Democratic nation-state is interesting.

jes, I respect you and believe you are fair-handed. How do you think Israel should root out and eliminate a large, well-funded, well-armed terrorist organization that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? A group that started this mess by launching a surprise terrorist attack that killed 1,400 Israelis and took women and children hostages? A group that doesn't care about sacrificing its own people to martyrdom?

I'm open-minded. I'd love to hear a really good plan to eliminate Hamas while also harming zero (or close to it) innocents.

However, if the plan is, "Well, it isn't that important to eliminate Hamas," I'm less open-minded to that. Because Hamas won't stop as long as it has a beating heart.