Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Uncle Rico]

Most of these people don't either believe basic facts or want others to see the truth.  There are still 240 hostages in Gaza tunnels.  We barely even talk about them anymore.  Hamas is using innocent Palestinians as shields.  Why aren't they protesting what Hamas has done to Palestinians?

We don't talk about those hostages anymore because the culture wars on campus seem to be more important.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Most of these people don't either believe basic facts or want others to see the truth.  There are still 240 hostages in Gaza tunnels.  We barely even talk about them anymore.  Hamas is using innocent Palestinians as shields.  Why aren't they protesting what Hamas has done to Palestinians?

I imagine the same reason that pro-Israel protestors aren't protesting Israel's use of force against Palestinian civilians. They believe that the ends justify the means.  I disagree with them. I'm honestly not sure if i agree or disagree with the pro-Israel protesters that the ends justify the means. I just know that what's going on in Gaza is terrible and i hope that somehow a lasting peace can be reached

[MU82]

The conclusion is probably right here, but the attemped explanation is tortured and politically-contrived.  Young peoples' inclination toward Palestinian sympathy doesn't have anything to do with percevied disrespect from Netanyahu toward Obama.  It is about America having been militarily engaged in unwinnable, asymmetric warfare in the Middle East for their whole lives.  That generation is trying to unpack the relationship between the collateral damage of those wars and creating more adherents of the philosophies we were there to destroy.  To them, America's alliance with Israel and the Israeli response to October 7 is just another dimension of that.  This is partly the fallout of nonsensical neocon international policy from the early aughts, and partly academia having lost the plot on how to contextualize the importance of supporting Western democratic and human rights values.

Thanks for your well-articulated response to that item from Marshall. Although I'm more pro-Israel than most younger people seem to be in this latest conflict, I recognize that the whole thing is a difficult topic with plenty of room for nuance.

[forgetful]

Most of these people don't either believe basic facts or want others to see the truth.  There are still 240 hostages in Gaza tunnels.  We barely even talk about them anymore. 

There is a very simple reason. Talking about them does not aide public support for the current military actions by Israel.

Discussing them would require interviews with the families who are calling for Netanyahu to do more to get the hostages released, including calls by those families for a ceasefire, and trading women/children and other prisoners currently held by Israel in exchange.

The pressure from the hostage side is for a ceasefire, by both the families and international communities. So discussion of them would lead to more pressure for Israel to stop what they are doing.

What is better, is to show violence erupting in protests, hate on campuses, and videos of the terrorist attacks. Those all drive sentiment to support ongoing military efforts, so they are the focus.

Wars are a image battle.

We learned this before the first Iraqi war, where the government hired a PR firm to figure out what would support US intervention in Iraq/Kuwait. The PR firm determined that focusing on atrocities is the number 1 way to bolster support, so they paraded a 15-year old girl, with a fake story of Iraqi soldiers killing babies, and put it on the front news everywhere to increase US support for an intervention...then added fake stories of 250,000 troops on the Saudi border to bolster congressional support.

Atrocities boost war support, hostages do not.

[4everwarriors]

The following is from liberal blogger Josh Marshall, who founded Talking Points Memo.

You can agree or disagree with his politics, this isn't about him. It's just his perspective on the "generation gap" in Americans' attitudes toward the Israel-Hamas war. FWIW, he was born in 1969.

"Younger Americans are much less instinctively sympathetic to Israel and are more sympathetic to the Palestinians. This is a basic generational fact about American politics and culture. There many reasons for this. The Holocaust ended almost 80 years ago. The post-1967 occupation has dragged on for 56 years old. For a generation of Americans their impressions of the conflict are not shaped by epic conventional wars, the terrorist campaigns of the 70s and 80s or even the mass casualty terror attacks of the Second Intifada. They are rather of repeated retaliatory bombing campaigns in Gaza and of a long-serving Israeli Prime Minister publicly disrespecting a black, Democratic President on his home turf, doing so in connivance with that President's domestic opponents. Over the last decade and a half and especially during the Trump years Benjamin Netanyahu more or less openly acted as a foreign auxiliary of the US Republican party. That had vast consequences and consequences many in the US and Israel saw and warned about at the time."

[MuggsyB]

I imagine the same reason that pro-Israel protestors aren't protesting Israel's use of force against Palestinian civilians. They believe that the ends justify the means.  I disagree with them. I'm honestly not sure if i agree or disagree with the pro-Israel protesters that the ends justify the means. I just know that what's going on in Gaza is terrible and i hope that somehow a lasting peace can be reached

With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis.  And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants.  Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th?  Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets?  How average Gazans reacted to this display? 

I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution.  They have no interest in it.  If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you?  Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed?  Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths?  Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.

Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone.  Period.  Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them?  Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?

Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil.  We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked?  That's  ridiculous.  Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th.  There is none.   

[forgetful]

With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis.  And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants.  Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th?  Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets?  How average Gazans reacted to this display? 

I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution.  They have no interest in it.  If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you?  Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed?  Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths?  Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.

Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone.  Period.  Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them?  Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?

Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil.  We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked?  That's  ridiculous.  Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th.  There is none.

You do know that Jordan and Egypt have been leaders in peace solution meetings forever right? And they have proposed multiple 2-state solutions in these peace meetings.

[Hards Alumni]

You do know that Jordan and Egypt have been leaders in peace solution meetings forever right? And they have proposed multiple 2-state solutions in these peace meetings.

No, he has no idea.  He continously displays his lack of historical knowledge with each post.

With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis.  And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants.  Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th?  Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets?  How average Gazans reacted to this display? 

I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution.  They have no interest in it.  If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you?  Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed? Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths?  Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.

Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone.  Period.  Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them?  Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?

Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil.  We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked?  That's  ridiculous.  Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th.  There is none.

Bolded:  Yes, quite a few.  Monstrous behavior isn't limited to the people you don't like, Muggsy.

[MU82]

The pressure from the hostage side is for a ceasefire, by both the families and international communities. So discussion of them would lead to more pressure for Israel to stop what they are doing.

Of course, pressure is also coming from Hamas, which started the war with a brutal assault that gave no quarter to women and children. They took innocents hostage and still hold those people. And they would wipe Israel off the face of the earth if they could.

Like some others you named, Hamas leaders also are waging a PR war, and one way they win is if they can convince enough people that Israel is the true evil transgressor.

Unfortunately, they appear to be winning that war. Even many of those who agree that Hamas started it and must be stopped often quickly follow with, "but Israel ... "

Aside from that omission, your post makes a lot of outstanding points.

[4everwarriors]

While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.

#NeverAgain

As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.

#NeverAgain

As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?

I do feel bad for all the poor republicans out there.  Maybe one day, they can pull themselves up by the bootstraps and find wealth like democrats instead of relying on corporate tax cuts and the welfare state

[Hards Alumni]

While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.

#NeverAgain

As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?

Advocates for the working class LMAO

[MU82]

While the Holocaust may have ended 80 years ago, for Jews worldwide the memory of the extermination of 6 million people,
simply because they were born Jewish, should not and will not ever end.

#NeverAgain

As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed. The dems are more highly educated, have very sizable wealth, and have a vision of the world as they envision it should be. On the other hand, Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?

Ridiculous overgeneralizations.

Millions upon millions of Democratic voters are "Israel's friend and ally," and millions upon millions of Republican voters are not.

Who do you think the very fine people who carried torches and chanted, "Jews will not replace us!" voted for in 2016 and 2020?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Advocates for the working class LMAO

C'mon now, you're being a bit hard on the drooling dentist. He's spent the last 30 years listening to Limbaugh, Levin, and other assorted screamers feed him lies, so of course he now believes this.

And just think of all the wonderful Republican policies that showcase their support for the working class:

* Opposing the minimum wage
* Right to work states
* Opposing collective bargaining
* Trickle down economics
* Repealing safety laws
* Repealing child labor laws
* A Supreme Court that inevitably sides with corporations over people

It's a fantastic record in support of working class people.

[Pakuni]

Advocates for the working class LMAO

Nikki Haley declared herself a union buster and Tim Scott said striking UAW workers should have been fired.
Very pro-working class, those two.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

With all due respect TAMU I completely disagree with your analysis.  And we need to be far more honest about what each side actually wants.  Have you read about some of these atrocities on Oct.7th?  Have you heard about the video of the German Israeli woman at the concert and what happened to her when her dead and mutilated body was paraded in the streets?  How average Gazans reacted to this display? 

I know people don't want to hear this but the majority of Palestinians do not want a peaceful 2 state solution.  They have no interest in it.  If random people there are gleeful over these horrific acts there what exactly does that tell you?  Are Israeli Jews celebrating Gazan children that are being killed?  Who exactly that is pro Israel, and support whatever they need to do, is thrilled about the collateral damage which will result in civilian deaths?  Again, if they wanted to commit "genocide" they could easily accomplish that, they don't want to slaughter non Hamas people.

Additionally, this conflict is not solvable by Israel alone.  Period.  Why cannot Jordan and Egypt, control certain areas with Palestinians, like in the past, and help form independent territories for them?  Why is Israel alone responsible for trying to accomplish a peaceful solution and not a single Arab State helping them in this process?

Lastly, I'm quite sick of other countries lecturing Israel how to defend themselves when none of them would allow this to happen on their soil.  We and the UK can't control our own fking border but have the audacity to tell Israel how to proceed after being attacked?  That's  ridiculous.  Let them do what they have to do, eliminate the threat of Hamas for starters, and stop making a moral equivalency between their response and what happened on Oct 7th.  There is none.

Muggsy, none of this responded to what i posted.  You asked why pro-palestine protestors aren't protesting Hamas. I answered because they think the ends justify the means. I also said that I disagree with them. I'm not sure what part of this "analysis" you disagree with.  Do you not think they think that the ends justify the means?

[jesmu84]

Terrorism is bad.

Collective punishment is bad.

[Uncle Rico]

Nikki Haley declared herself a union buster and Tim Scott said striking UAW workers should have been fired.
Very pro-working class, those two.

They should try that in a small town

[MUBurrow]

As for today's U.S. political parties, while the democrats had always been thought of as the party of the working class and the supporter of Israel, that has changed... Republicans now are thought of as Israel's friend and ally, advocates for the working class, and for the most part dismiss change, hey?

Responding only to the relevant portion, I agree that Israel's broadest base of support in the US is shifting to the right. I think part of that is due to Israeli politics also shifting to the right. One reflects and reinforces the other. I think the other part of that is (again) due to confusion within each party about their international agenda after the Iraq war flipped everything upside down.

[Pakuni]

Responding only to the relevant portion, I agree that Israel's broadest base of support in the US is shifting to the right. I think part of that is due to Israeli politics also shifting to the right. One reflects and reinforces the other. I think the other part of that is (again) due to confusion within each party about their international agenda after the Iraq war flipped everything upside down.

There's also this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/

[jesmu84]

There's also all the AIPAC money to be had

[jesmu84]

Interesting discussion between Tucker and Greenwald pointing out that the right has taken the anti-free speech position when it comes to discussion of Palestine.

Cancel culture runs amok on the right these days.

[Lennys Tap]

The conclusion is probably right here, but the attemped explanation is tortured and politically-contrived.  Young peoples' inclination toward Palestinian sympathy doesn't have anything to do with percevied disrespect from Netanyahu toward Obama.  It is about America having been militarily engaged in unwinnable, asymmetric warfare in the Middle East for their whole lives.  That generation is trying to unpack the relationship between the collateral damage of those wars and creating more adherents of the philosophies we were there to destroy.  To them, America's alliance with Israel and the Israeli response to October 7 is just another dimension of that.  This is partly the fallout of nonsensical neocon international policy from the early aughts, and partly academia having lost the plot on how to contextualize the importance of supporting Western democratic and human rights values.

Josh Marshall is dead wrong in his reasoning.

Yours, however, makes perfect sense.

[Heisenberg]

No one knows what's best for the Jewish community like a gentile dentist from the Milwaukee suburbs.

Anyhow, look at all these embarrassing Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-us-jews-overwhelmingly-back-biden-over-trump-in-2024-rematch/

June 26, 2023 story

The Jewish world changed on October 7.

Maybe you noticed.

[JWags85]

Responding only to the relevant portion, I agree that Israel's broadest base of support in the US is shifting to the right. I think part of that is due to Israeli politics also shifting to the right. One reflects and reinforces the other. I think the other part of that is (again) due to confusion within each party about their international agenda after the Iraq war flipped everything upside down.

I've seen a number of interesting posts and thoughts on the element that the "left" of the younger generation have sort of embodied a collective support mindset for what they deem marginalized groups.  So if I blanket support LGBT or BLM (not that either is wrong to support) then I must also blanket support any group vocal advocates of that cause also support.  It's the flag in the social media profile move.  You get a lot of people being very forward or loud about being pro-Ukraine, Pro-Palestine, etc... but not knowing really any nuance about it while being quick to label or shut down those in opposition as some heinous individual.

So you have a lot of people who knew nothing about the conflict 6 weeks ago now being strongly in favor of something solely because that's what those they admire represent. 

Now obviously this goes both ways, but also younger generations skew more liberal and are more in tune with social media influence and direction.