Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[jesmu84]

jes, I respect you and believe you are fair-handed. How do you think Israel should root out and eliminate a large, well-funded, well-armed terrorist organization that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? A group that started this mess by launching a surprise terrorist attack that killed 1,400 Israelis and took women and children hostages? A group that doesn't care about sacrificing its own people to martyrdom?

I'm open-minded. I'd love to hear a really good plan to eliminate Hamas while also harming zero (or close to it) innocents.

However, if the plan is, "Well, it isn't that important to eliminate Hamas," I'm less open-minded to that. Because Hamas won't stop as long as it has a beating heart.

I'm totally in favor of eliminating a terrorist organization such as Hamas.

I just find it weird to state that the actions of a terrorist group justify potential war crimes from a should-be-better democratic nation state.

Are you going to have unintentional casualties? Sure.
Are all the unintentional casualties actually unintentional? I don't know.

Were mass civilian casualties justified after 9/11 when the US went after bin Laden? I don't think so.

[4everwarriors]

Hey?

[Pakuni]

Hey?

How?

[jesmu84]

How?

Don't question the Facebook memes

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

How?

Needed to establish some basic deniability of inexcusable violence vs just leaning into it from the start?

[MU82]

I'm totally in favor of eliminating a terrorist organization such as Hamas.

I just find it weird to state that the actions of a terrorist group justify potential war crimes from a should-be-better democratic nation state.

Are you going to have unintentional casualties? Sure.
Are all the unintentional casualties actually unintentional? I don't know.

Were mass civilian casualties justified after 9/11 when the US went after bin Laden? I don't think so.

There is a lot we don't know yet about this Hamas-Israel conflict, that's certainly true.

Your last paragraph has nothing to do with this conflict. I was not in favor of that war, and neither was the guy who would become the next president of the United States.

But one could respond to your question with this one, which presents a more similar situation:

Were mass civilian casualties justified after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? I think so.

Or this question:

If the Canadian government launched an invasion against the United States, killed 1,400 American citizens, took hundreds of hostages, live-streamed the beheadings of some of those hostages, and proclaimed that its No. 1 goal was eliminating the American people, would that justify mass civilian casualties in Canada? I think so.

[21Jumpstreet]

I see IDF is using very specific language now with their attacks and raids. I can only think this is due to louder and louder calls for a ceasefire and the waning support of Israeli leadership.

[jesmu84]

There is a lot we don't know yet about this Hamas-Israel conflict, that's certainly true.

Your last paragraph has nothing to do with this conflict. I was not in favor of that war, and neither was the guy who would become the next president of the United States.

But one could respond to your question with this one, which presents a more similar situation:

Were mass civilian casualties justified after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? I think so.

Or this question:

If the Canadian government launched an invasion against the United States, killed 1,400 American citizens, took hundreds of hostages, live-streamed the beheadings of some of those hostages, and proclaimed that its No. 1 goal was eliminating the American people, would that justify mass civilian casualties in Canada? I think so.

We can agree to disagree.

I think we could agree that more transparency would help

[JWags85]

I'm totally in favor of eliminating a terrorist organization such as Hamas.

I just find it weird to state that the actions of a terrorist group justify potential war crimes from a should-be-better democratic nation state.

This is my issue with the calls for a ceasefire though.  I understand the intent, but its not a call for a "ceasefire", its strictly a call for Israel to stop attacking/advancing/pursuing military action.  A ceasefire implies 2 warring sides lay down their weapons.  We know that Hamas DGAF about a ceasefire and they've declared a war on Israel.

So I don't disagree that a democratic nation state should be better than a terrorist group.  But the situation right now truly seems to be Israel continues advancing...or they accept the calls for a "ceasefire" and sit back, which lets Hamas regroup, stop being on the defensive, and do what they do next.

Its a horrible situation, its a set of decision making and geopolitical strategizing that I am completely not envious of, but I think its disingenuous for people (not saying anyone here) to keep viewing this in the historical lens of warfare, given Hamas' lack of adherence to all rules and decency of warfare.

[4everwarriors]

I don't know what y'all don't get. Its a fookin' war, not some make believe bullchit game to play nice in the sandbox. Yes, war is hell and people will die. Hamas should have thought about the consequences before their attack of Oct. 7. But, then again, they don't give a dung about the Palestinians and find it an honor to die for Allah, aina?

#fromtherivertothesea

[lawdog77]

I think we could agree that more transparency would help

Transparency? During War? You are kidding, right?

[jesmu84]

This is my issue with the calls for a ceasefire though.  I understand the intent, but its not a call for a "ceasefire", its strictly a call for Israel to stop attacking/advancing/pursuing military action.  A ceasefire implies 2 warring sides lay down their weapons.  We know that Hamas DGAF about a ceasefire and they've declared a war on Israel.

So I don't disagree that a democratic nation state should be better than a terrorist group.  But the situation right now truly seems to be Israel continues advancing...or they accept the calls for a "ceasefire" and sit back, which lets Hamas regroup, stop being on the defensive, and do what they do next.

Its a horrible situation, its a set of decision making and geopolitical strategizing that I am completely not envious of, but I think its disingenuous for people (not saying anyone here) to keep viewing this in the historical lens of warfare, given Hamas' lack of adherence to all rules and decency of warfare.

I never said anything about a ceasefire.

My post was merely a response to the mindset that because Hamas committed 10/7, that justifies Israel committing potential war crimes - killing innocent Palestinians indiscriminately.

As I said before, more transparency/evidence would help significantly

[jesmu84]

Transparency? During War? You are kidding, right?

Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.

[MU82]

We can agree to disagree.

I think we could agree that more transparency would help

Agree that some more transparency could help assuage some of the ill feelings toward Israel. But even that would be a one-way street. The only thing Hamas is transparent about is its desire to crush Israel and eliminate every last Jew on the planet.

Thanks for the conversation, jes.

[lawdog77]

Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.

Yeah, it's all Israel's fault   

[Pakuni]

Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.

Or being falsely accused of riding shotgun with Hamas.

[jesmu84]

Yeah, it's all Israel's fault   

Israel isn't limiting journalist access?

[lawdog77]

Israel isn't limiting journalist access?

Israels position is that it's a freaking war zone, and its for their safety. Many journalists have been killed already. They can't tell journalists  go here, or go there because of tactical issues.

Hate to break this to you, but Hamas has completely censored journalists, and have murdered several.
SIMON: I have to ask, is Hamas welcoming to journalists?

MANSOUR: No. In addition to access problems from the Israeli side, of course, Hamas have enforced its censorship regime within Gaza. For the first time, this war that we have documented Israeli journalists being killed by Hamas fighters, four of them who were killed in southern Israel on October 7 in unprecedented assault.

[jesmu84]

Israels position is that it's a freaking war zone, and its for their safety. Many journalists have been killed already. They can't tell journalists  go here, or go there because of tactical issues.

Hate to break this to you, but Hamas has completely censored journalists, and have murdered several.
SIMON: I have to ask, is Hamas welcoming to journalists?

MANSOUR: No. In addition to access problems from the Israeli side, of course, Hamas have enforced its censorship regime within Gaza. For the first time, this war that we have documented Israeli journalists being killed by Hamas fighters, four of them who were killed in southern Israel on October 7 in unprecedented assault.

"Journalists embedded with the IDF in Gaza operate under the observation of Israeli commanders in the field, and are not permitted to move unaccompanied within the strip," said Becky Anderson, introducing Diamond's report. "As a condition to enter Gaza under IDF escort, outlets have to submit all materials and footage to the Israeli military for review prior to publication."

[lawdog77]

"Journalists embedded with the IDF in Gaza operate under the observation of Israeli commanders in the field, and are not permitted to move unaccompanied within the strip," said Becky Anderson, introducing Diamond's report. "As a condition to enter Gaza under IDF escort, outlets have to submit all materials and footage to the Israeli military for review prior to publication."

As it should, so no strategic info is given out. What/how much footage or materials hasn't been released?

[Pakuni]

Israels position is that it's a freaking war zone, and its for their safety. Many journalists have been killed already. They can't tell journalists  go here, or go there because of tactical issues.

Oh, come on. Israel has a long record of not caring at all about journalists' safety. IDF troops have literally murdered journalists.

https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/

If you want to make the argument that Israel is limiting access for strategic reasons, that's credible and even understandable. Claiming they're doing to protect journalists' safety is extreme naivete.

Hate to break this to you, but Hamas has completely censored journalists, and have murdered several.

I think this is what Jesmu means when he points out that some are setting Hamas' behavior as the bar for Israel's behavior. Is it wrong to expect better?

[lawdog77]

I think this is what Jesmu means when he points out that some are setting Hamas' behavior as the bar for Israel's behavior. Is it wrong to expect better?

Jesmu stated it's Israels fault there is no transparency. I was simply pointing out that Hamas has completely shut down access. Israel allows journalists via caravans to spots.

[jesmu84]

Jesmu stated it's Israels fault there is no transparency. I was simply pointing out that Hamas has completely shut down access. Israel allows journalists via caravans to spots.

I never stated that.

I did say I would appreciate journalists having access without Israel control

[lawdog77]

I never stated that.

I did say I would appreciate journalists having access without Israel control

you didn't?
Quote from: lawdog77 on Today at 08:54:11 AM
Transparency? During War? You are kidding, right?

Ya. It'd be a real shame if journalists were allowed to document what they see without the control of Israel.

[Jockey]

I never said anything about a ceasefire.

My post was merely a response to the mindset that because Hamas committed 10/7, that justifies Israel committing potential war crimes - killing innocent Palestinians indiscriminately.

As I said before, more transparency/evidence would help significantly

I don't understand what you want. You want HAMAS eliminated, but you don't support that Israel is trying to eliminate them.

Rather than speaking in generalities (and nobody wants innocent civilians to die except for the usual nuts on Scoop), what would YOU do to eliminate HAMAS?