Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[21Jumpstreet]

Everyone agrees that Hamas committed a horrific terrorist attack, and it is largely semantics, but how do you exactly define "starting a war" over there.

In numerous military excursions, and bombing campaigns in the West Bank, 234 Palestinians were killed by the IDF prior to October 7th. Nine additional civilians were murdered by Settlers. Do those count as part of a "war."

I think it is more accurate to say that the war started in ~1947 and is still ongoing.

But, the bottom line is Hamas is terrible, and committed a horrible terrorist attack.

It is also true that Israel's response is increasingly becoming more ugly as more information comes out, and in my opinion, no circumstances can justify the numbers of women and children that have died, especially those dying unnecessarily in hospitals.

Babies were left to die and rot in one of the hospitals attacked by the IDF, and that doesn't include the neonatal babies that died at Al Shifa. The entire US was up in arms and supported an invasion of Iraq, because of similar manufactured claims...but so many people look the other way when it is actually occurring to Palestinians.

The war is war excuse, is simply a way for people to justify horrific actions by people they support.

Excellent post

[21Jumpstreet]

X 100000000000. Have some unnatural carnal knowledgeing empathy people, you went to a Jesuit school

Excellent post

[The Sultan]

Is this supposed to get a chuckle?
Pay the tuition and you are there.
Garbage in, garbage out.

What?

[Pakuni]

Pretty sure Palestinians voted Hamas to govern Gaza. Ya get what ya vote for. Kinda like how it works here, hey?

Pretty sure about half the population of Gaza wasn't yet born when Hamas came to power, hey?

[MU82]

Empathy is for losers.

[forgetful]

Pretty sure about half the population of Gaza wasn't yet born when Hamas came to power, hey?

The fact that is true is really kind of crazy.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

If you cower behind women and children to shoot at people you hope they get injured so you can spread propaganda that the other side is inhumane to shoot at innocents. Once elected Hamas has denied any further elections and spent millions on offensive weapons while impoverishing the population.

[The Sultan]

If you cower behind women and children to shoot at people you hope they get injured so you can spread propaganda that the other side is inhumane to shoot at innocents. Once elected Hamas has denied any further elections and spent millions on offensive weapons while impoverishing the population.

No one is here is defending Hamas.

[NCMUFan]

Is this? Perhaps attending higher education should involve retaining some of the content and values. I suppose no one forces you to do that though, as you seem to demonstrate. But it is your right to insult the institution this board is built around. Garbage in garbage out as you say.

You look so cute on your soap box.

[Lennys Tap]

No one is here is defending Hamas.

Not directly.

But an awful lot of the "innocents" in Gaza definitely do.

[Pakuni]

Not directly.

But an awful lot of the "innocents" in Gaza definitely do.

What does this even mean?

[The Sultan]

What does this even mean?

I tried to respond a couple of times and just decided to move on.

[Lennys Tap]

Pretty sure about half the population of Gaza wasn't yet born when Hamas came to power, hey?

Currently support for Hamas in Gaza is around 44%, hey? 90% want Abbas to resign.

[Pakuni]

Currently support for Hamas in Gaza is around 44%, hey? 90% want Abbas to resign.

Source?
This tells quite a different story.

Given the low opinion most Gazans hold of their government, it is unsurprising that their disapproval extends to Hamas as a political party. Just 27 percent of respondents selected Hamas as their preferred party, slightly less than the proportion who favored Fatah (30 percent), the party that is led by Abbas and that governs the West Bank. Hamas's popularity in Gaza has slipped as well, falling from 34 percent support in the 2021 survey.

Leadership style is not the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas's goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose "other"), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords.
Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

Also, who here is supporting Hamas? And why did you put innocents in quotes?

[Lennys Tap]

Source?
This tells quite a different story.

Given the low opinion most Gazans hold of their government, it is unsurprising that their disapproval extends to Hamas as a political party. Just 27 percent of respondents selected Hamas as their preferred party, slightly less than the proportion who favored Fatah (30 percent), the party that is led by Abbas and that governs the West Bank. Hamas's popularity in Gaza has slipped as well, falling from 34 percent support in the 2021 survey.

Leadership style is not the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas's goal of eliminating the state of Israel. When presented with three possible solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as well as an option to choose "other"), the majority of survey respondents (54 percent) favored the two-state solution outlined in the 1993 Oslo accords.
Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas's October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

Also, who here is supporting Hamas? And why did you put innocents in quotes?

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#

42% in Gaza, 44% on the West Bank, 90% anti Abbas.

It's a war. Hamas is the enemy, and a brutal one. Anyone who lives in Gaza and supports their effort is not an innocent.

Nobody here will actually come out and admit their support of Hamas but when virtually all of one's posting are attacks on Israel one has to wonder. The "I don't support Hamas, BUT...." line is very reminiscent of the "I don't support the IRA, BUT..." line from decades ago. Guess what? A lot of those folks actually did support the IRA. I think the same is true in this case.

[Pakuni]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#

42% in Gaza, 44% on the West Bank, 90% anti Abbas.

It's a war. Hamas is the enemy, and a brutal one. Anyone who lives in Gaza and supports their effort is not an innocent.

Nobody here will actually come out and admit their support of Hamas but when virtually all of one's posting are attacks on Israel one has to wonder. The "I don't support Hamas, BUT...." line is very reminiscent of the "I don't support the IRA, BUT..." line from decades ago. Guess what? A lot of those folks actually did support the IRA. I think the same is true in this case.

Is anyone here actually writing "I don't support Hamas BUT ..."?

Applying your argument, shall we assume that anyone who writes "I don't support the killing of civilians but ..." actually supports the killing of civilians?

[Lennys Tap]

Is anyone here actually writing "I don't support Hamas BUT ..."?

Applying your argument, shall we assume that anyone who writes "I don't support the killing of civilians but ..." actually supports the killing of civilians?

If they say that I think you can assume that, given the circumstances, they believe that civilian casualties are inevitable and necessary to accomplish the mission - so yes.

Any comment on the AP's numbers very recent numbers that significantly disagree with ones you cited?

[Hards Alumni]

If they say that I think you can assume that, given the circumstances, they believe that civilian casualties are inevitable and necessary to accomplish the mission - so yes.

Any comment on the AP's numbers very recent numbers that significantly disagree with ones you cited?

What does accomplish the mission look like to you?

[The Sultan]

What does accomplish the mission look like to you?

Right. This is the crux of the issue.

[Lennys Tap]

What does accomplish the mission look like to you?

Well, it's a war. And any war worth fighting means "the mission" is to win it. I know that's kind of old school - we've fought an awful lot of wars without that being the mission, but imo sacrificing blood and treasure for anything less is a fools errand. So, unconditional surrender or effectively eliminating Hamas. And a period of occupation to make sure it doesn't raise its ugly head again. Sort of like what we did in the last war we won 80 years ago.

[The Sultan]

Well, it's a war. And any war worth fighting means "the mission" is to win it. I know that's kind of old school - we've fought an awful lot of wars without that being the mission, but imo sacrificing blood and treasure for anything less is a fools errand. So, unconditional surrender or effectively eliminating Hamas. And a period of occupation to make sure it doesn't raise its ugly head again. Sort of like what we did in the last war we won 80 years ago.

We didn't just occupy, we immediately invested into them and let them run their own countries shortly after. Is Israel going to do either of those things? Or simply occupy and oppress. Because Hamas will never die if that's the case.

[Hards Alumni]

Well, it's a war. And any war worth fighting means "the mission" is to win it. I know that's kind of old school - we've fought an awful lot of wars without that being the mission, but imo sacrificing blood and treasure for anything less is a fools errand. So, unconditional surrender or effectively eliminating Hamas. And a period of occupation to make sure it doesn't raise its ugly head again. Sort of like what we did in the last war we won 80 years ago.

Iraq surrendered and the government was toppled.  We occupied.  Was that a success?

War isn't fought the way it was 80 years ago either.  Asymmetrical warfare is the name of the game.

Rooting out all extremists in Gaza will be an impossible task, and the consequences of trying to will reverberate for decades to come.

[Skatastrophy]

Iraq surrendered and the government was toppled.  We occupied.  Was that a success?

War isn't fought the way it was 80 years ago either.  Asymmetrical warfare is the name of the game.

Rooting out all extremists in Gaza will be an impossible task, and the consequences of trying to will reverberate for decades to come.

Yep. Hamas' eradication seems to be Israel's goal. A lot more people are going to die in the next 5+ years if they don't back down from that position.

[Pakuni]

If they say that I think you can assume that, given the circumstances, they believe that civilian casualties are inevitable and necessary to accomplish the mission - so yes.

But that's not your argument. Your argument is "I don't SUPPORT Hamas but" is tantamount to saying "I support Hamas."
Accepting that civilians deaths are inevitable is not the same as saying "I support civilian deaths."
You're in a logic pretzel here.
But again, nobody here is actually saying "I don't support Hamas but ..." so it's a moot point, right?

Any comment on the AP's numbers very recent numbers that significantly disagree with ones you cited?

Sure.
Hamas remains unpopular with a majority of Gazans, despite the fact Hamas is fighting the people destroying their homes and killing their families. The lack of "enemy of my enemy" phenomenon here is telling.
Any comment on the Foreign Affairs story?

[4everwarriors]

Israel has the means to end and win this war in a very short timeframe if only the Buffoon and Blinken would quit trying to orchestrate it, aina?