Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[The Sultan]

Actually, that there are tens of thousands of Jews trying to live peacefully in Ukraine is irrelevant to my argument.

Ukraine is a free nation and a U.S. ally in an incredibly important/strategic part of Europe. Our sworn enemy - a Hitler-wannabe who would love nothing more than to see America cease to exist - tried to (and is still trying to) take it by force. Why do so many of the same people who say Israel must be protected at all costs shrug their shoulders at a terrorist who wants to impose his evil will on Ukraine?

Ukraine is not our ally in any similar way as Israel though. There are mutual defense agreements between US and Israel that have never existed between the US and Ukraine. In fact, up until the invasion I don't think Ukraine would have been considered an ally at all.

[21Jumpstreet]

I agree it was by and large good. However, this is what I dispute and what I think is the root of these problems: "In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel."

I think we have to be careful about "historical claims."  Groups of people have been migrating to and from various places since humankind first existed.  Remember that the vast majority of Scoopers are now sitting somewhere where someone else has a much more recent "historical claim" than the Jews have over Israel.

Don't get me wrong, Israel has a LEGAL right to exist within its currently recognized borders (not including the West Bank and Gaza) under the norms of international law. And it has a right to protect those borders.

Yes, that line absolutely struck me when I first read the piece. It is probably the main reason I worded my post the way I did using the words attempt at unbiased. We can never be wholly unbiased, and I respect his opinion. Clearly all claims of who rightly owns or is historically the rightful settlers of the land are what started us down this path. Where it has led is an abomination.

I appreciated the end of the piece most, I think, and I liked that the author tried to show some differing perspectives.

[Uncle Rico]

Very neocon.

It's not sending troops but supporting them financially and with arms.  Same as Israel

[21Jumpstreet]

The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy.  18 years ago.  Where the F have you been?  There aren't Jews there dude.  And what have the Palestinians done since?  Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map.  The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres.

I think this is decidedly untrue, well mostly. Yes, Hamas has the sole purpose to wipe Israel off the map, well actually, they will kill Muslims, too. Contrary to what we see and hear, there are Jews and Muslims living there together peacefully. This is a war between radical zealots not Jews and Muslims or Israel and Palestine as a whole.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

No, "the Jews" didn't give Gaza to the Palestinians.  The Israeli army removed their military from what was legally not considered part of Israel.

And really that's not my point. My point is that everyone is stating that they somehow have a right to a piece of land because the ethno-religious group of which they are a member used to live there. And I don't think that should ever be the correct way to determine sovereignty.

I can use another example. Mount Ararat is considered a national symbol and a holy place to Armenians. It is on the flag of Armenia and can been seen quite clearly from its capital. Yet the mountain is in Turkey and Turkey does not allow Armenians to access the mountain.  Should Armenia be allowed to annex the mountain based on this "historical claim?"  Of course not.

Another. For centuries the city of Konigsberg was a German city. Prior to Berlin, it was the capital of the Teutonic Order and of Prussia. After WWII, the Soviets forced the Germans out, Russified the city and renamed it Kaliningrad.  Do todays Germans have a "historical claim" to the city? Nope.

Interesting side note that recently Poland and all 3 Baltic countries have officially begun recognizing the enclave as Konigsberg, but in their own language.  For example, Królewiec in Polish and Karaliaučius in Lithuanian, both of which mean "King's Mountain" same as the German name.

[MuggsyB]

There is no other solution MU82 than to obliterate and destroy Hamas.  Period.    They do not have a choice.  The hostages chances of making it unfortunately are very, very, slim.  There will also be a lot of civilian casualties.  You cannot negotiate with Hamas or the PA.  The fact that this administration won't just flat out state that Iran is heavily involved in this tragedy is honestly a joke.  We need to state basic facts here.  If Hezbollah gets involved it becomes much more difficult but 🇮🇱 will prevail in the long run. 

[MuggsyB]

I think this is decidedly untrue, well mostly. Yes, Hamas has the sole purpose to wipe Israel off the map, well actually, they will kill Muslims, too. Contrary to what we see and hear, there are Jews and Muslims living there together peacefully. This is a war between radical zealots not Jews and Muslims or Israel and Palestine as a whole.

Jews are not in Gaza. 

[Lennys Tap]

Sure, I agree.  But don't the power dynamics and global political realities play a role in how that threat should be perceived and responded to?  If Al-Qaeda had succeeded in their stated goals with respect to the US, we could say there would be no more America.  And while the US was of course entitled to a strong response to their horrendous violence, the American response also had to be contextualized in that there was no realistic chance of Al-Qaeda succeeding in that goal.  Hamas just threw everything they had at Israel.  The results were horrendous, and Israel should and must respond strongly.  But the threat from Hamas in Gaza is not existential.  Israel has (to its credit) positioned itself at the big kid table of nations, and despite horrendous historical oppression, that precludes contextualizing a threat from terrorist criminals as an existential one.

With (truly) all due respect, I think equating the threat that Al-Qaeda posed to the US and the threat that Hamas, Hezbolla, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon, etc., etc., pose to Israel is misguided. A small country surrounded by enemies who want them obliterated and whose people have already been victims of holocaust, pogrom and the like has the right to be a little less "balanced" in their response to an attack like this. IMO.

[4everwarriors]

I think I mostly agree with this, though thankfully it's highly unlikely that the terrorists are going to succeed here.

Curious, though ... why do so many who want to save Israel not give a shyte about the Jews (and others) in Ukraine, which was attacked by a modern-day Hitler?

Interesting observation Nads, but history shows us that as Hitler rose to power, the entire world sat and watched. Granted, news travels at a far greater speed than it did back then, but I still think we, as people, are slow to react to the obvious, hey?

[Pakuni]

Ukraine is not our ally in any similar way as Israel though. There are mutual defense agreements between US and Israel that have never existed between the US and Ukraine. In fact, up until the invasion I don't think Ukraine would have been considered an ally at all.

Depends how you date the invasion. Does the seizure of Crimea count?
The U.S. has supported Ukraine's admission to NATO since 2009.
After the Russians took Crimea, the U.S. began sending military aid. Threatening to cut off that aid got a certain someone in trouble.
Our relationship with Ukraine definitely is not the same as with Israel. That said - and I may be mistaken here - but I don't believe the U.S. is required to defend Israel from attack, as with NATO members.

[MUBurrow]

You cannot negotiate with Hamas or the PA. 

The fact that you keep lumping Hamas and the PA together here says a lot. 

[Galway Eagle]

Here's a pretty good visual the view of "these acts are heinous and warrant a retaliation but one has to acknowledge Israel's done some messed up things as well"

https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

Again super pro Israel on this but some of you seem to think this happened in a vacuum and it didn't. You can only put down people for so long. Even Nelson Mandela took up arms eventually. Now there's a right and wrong way to go about fighting back and this is unequivocally the wrong way, but you can't look at those death/injury totals and say Palestine doesn't have some grievances (and that's without the checkpoints, and dehumanizing laws)

[The Sultan]

Depends how you date the invasion. Does the seizure of Crimea count?
The U.S. has supported Ukraine's admission to NATO since 2009.
After the Russians took Crimea, the U.S. began sending military aid. Threatening to cut off that aid got a certain someone in trouble.
Our relationship with Ukraine definitely is not the same as with Israel. That said - and I may be mistaken here - but I don't believe the U.S. is required to defend Israel from attack, as with NATO members.

Right. I meant the 2009 invasion. That wasn't clear.

[Uncle Rico]

Interesting observation Nads, but history shows us that as Hitler rose to power, the entire world sat and watched. Granted, news travels at a far greater speed than it did back then, but I still think we, as people, are slow to react to the obvious, hey?

Recent and current American history proves that

[MUBurrow]

With (truly) all due respect, I think equating the threat that Al-Qaeda posed to the US and the threat that Hamas, Hezbolla, Iran, Yemen, Lebanon, etc., etc., pose to Israel is misguided. A small country surrounded by enemies who want them obliterated and whose people have already been victims of holocaust, pogrom and the like has the right to be a little less "balanced" in their response to an attack like this. IMO.

Appreciate it Lenny, and you're right that the analogy is half clumsy.  I think in the immediate term, two questions dictate what is an appropriate response from Israel (and its allies?), and reasonable minds can differ on both. One, as you point out, is the degree to which the actions and threats posed by Hamas can be imputed to Israel's other regional enemies.  The other is the degree to which Hamas's actions can be imputed to the population of the Palestinian territories generally.

[MU82]

Depends how you date the invasion. Does the seizure of Crimea count?
The U.S. has supported Ukraine's admission to NATO since 2009.
After the Russians took Crimea, the U.S. began sending military aid. Threatening to cut off that aid got a certain someone in trouble.
Our relationship with Ukraine definitely is not the same as with Israel. That said - and I may be mistaken here - but I don't believe the U.S. is required to defend Israel from attack, as with NATO members.

This. Also, Ukraine is of strategic importance to the U.S. and its European allies. Sit idly by and hand Ukraine over to Putin and what's next?

But no, I am not trying to say that Ukraine has the same kind of longstanding relationship with America that Israel does. Just that its people, and its nation, need to be able to turn back the tyranny of a despot.

Interesting observation Nads, but history shows us that as Hitler rose to power, the entire world sat and watched. Granted, news travels at a far greater speed than it did back then, but I still think we, as people, are slow to react to the obvious, hey?

You didn't answer my question about Ukraine.

There is no other solution MU82 than to obliterate and destroy Hamas.  Period.    They do not have a choice.  The hostages chances of making it unfortunately are very, very, slim.  There will also be a lot of civilian casualties.  You cannot negotiate with Hamas or the PA.  The fact that this administration won't just flat out state that Iran is heavily involved in this tragedy is honestly a joke.  We need to state basic facts here.  If Hezbollah gets involved it becomes much more difficult but 🇮🇱 will prevail in the long run. 

This administration likes to wait for facts. I know that's not as satisfying as, say, immediately taking out advertisements proclaiming that the Central Park Five should be executed (for crimes they eventually would be exonerated for).

I like your passion, Muggs, but you are a hair-on-fire kind of guy whose every utterance is borne of emotion.

I do agree that Hamas is evil and every effort must be made to eradicate it. I am willing to admit that I do not have the kind of expertise in this realm to state what the best way to do that is.

[Uncle Rico]

Appreciate it Lenny, and you're right that the analogy is half clumsy.  I think in the immediate term, two questions dictate what is an appropriate response from Israel (and its allies?), and reasonable minds can differ on both. One, as you point out, is the degree to which the actions and threats posed by Hamas can be imputed to Israel's other regional enemies.  The other is the degree to which Hamas's actions can be imputed to the population of the Palestinian territories generally.

It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.

America will support Israel.  Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation.  The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other

[The Sultan]

It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.

America will support Israel.  Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation.  The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other

Right. Israel may decide that totally obliterating Hamas, with all the civilian fatalities that it would incur, is not in its strategic best interests if it puts a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia at risk.

[MU82]

It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.

America will support Israel.  Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation.  The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other

Wait, so you're saying that Israel's leaders - and not Scoopers - should make decisions on how to defend their nation's sovereignty? That's crazy talk, Unk!

[21Jumpstreet]

Jews are not in Gaza.

Patently false, but I think you meant Jews and Muslims aren't peacefully living together in Gaza.

[Pakuni]

It is humorous to me, that those far from the region feel they know what is best and to dictate what the response should be.

America will support Israel.  Ultimately, Israel will wage this war to protect themselves as a sovereign nation.  The fact of the matter is, American public opinion isn't swaying them one way or the other

Are you saying that what's arguably most complex foreign policy conflict in human history isn't going to be solved on Scoop?

[forgetful]

Someone ask the Cherokee nation about historical land claims

Not to mention that if Abrahamic religions are correct, then the Middle East is everyone's homeland. How do you pick who to give it to?

Notably, the Palestinians proposed in the 1960's to have the entire area be made a binational homeland for Jews, Arabs, and Christians. Israel refused.

[The Sultan]

Patently false, but I think you meant Jews and Muslims aren't peacefully living together in Gaza.

I don't think Muggs realizes that something like 20% of the Israeli population is Arab. Full citizens who can vote, serve in the military, and otherwise lead fairly normal lives.

[shoothoops]

The Jews gave Gaza to the Palestinians Fluffy.  18 years ago.  Where the F have you been?  There aren't Jews there dude.  And what have the Palestinians done since?  Elected Hamas in 2007 whose sole purpose is to wipe Israel off the map.  The PA is also conplicit in these barbaric, ignominious, massacres.

Hamas doesn't represent the interests of many Palestinians. 17 years ago election with less than 45% of the vote.

DT didn't and doesn't represent the interests of the majority of Americans.

[Uncle Rico]

Are you saying that what's arguably most complex foreign policy conflict in human history isn't going to be solved on Scoop?

I know, stunning.  I'm coming around to muggsy's way of thinking but expanding it to a crusade-level attack that takes the Arabian Peninsula and Jerusalem, the Sinai, Syria, etc.

Time to think big and end this millenniums long struggle for these lands