Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[The Lens]

I'm honestly curious,  which countries are you talking about?

This reminds me of the old line about Milwaukee...

The only people that don't like Milwaukee are those who never visited or never left.

It's clear some people have no perspective, no context. 

[4everwarriors]

So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?

[Uncle Rico]

So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?

Who here has "hated" on Israel?

[The Sultan]

So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?

Wtf are you even talking about?

[Hards Alumni]

So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?

Facts don't care about your feelings.

[MUBurrow]

Has anyone come across any resources that discuss the relationship between the average Gaza Palestinian and Hamas?  With the evacuation order and Hamas's response, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian who resides in Northern Gaza and imagine what I would do.  Like, is a Palestinian who tries to evacuate in danger of a reprisal from Hamas?  Does Hamas operate any quasi-judicial system in Gaza and prosecute crime, etc.?

[Hards Alumni]

Has anyone come across any resources that discuss the relationship between the average Gaza Palestinian and Hamas?  With the evacuation order and Hamas's response, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian who resides in Northern Gaza and imagine what I would do.  Like, is a Palestinian who tries to evacuate in danger of a reprisal from Hamas?  Does Hamas operate any quasi-judicial system in Gaza and prosecute crime, etc.?

That's a great question.  Hamas is the de facto unelected government of the Gaza Strip.  They won an election in 2006 and haven't allowed fair elections since... 17 years ago.  For reference, something like half the population of the Gaza Strip is under the age of 18. 

Personally, if I lived in Gaza right now, I'd be on the march to the South.  There are videos online of the flood of people already moving.  I doubt Hamas guns down these people... But honestly, who knows.

[forgetful]

Has anyone come across any resources that discuss the relationship between the average Gaza Palestinian and Hamas?  With the evacuation order and Hamas's response, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian who resides in Northern Gaza and imagine what I would do.  Like, is a Palestinian who tries to evacuate in danger of a reprisal from Hamas?  Does Hamas operate any quasi-judicial system in Gaza and prosecute crime, etc.?

I don't think Hamas would attack them. I'd be pretty shocked by that. But if I'm an average Palestinian, I'm thinking four things. 1) Where do I go? There is no where to go. 2) They told Palestinians to leave Gaza by the southern border then bombed that border crossing 3x the next day, can they trust them? 3) If we leave, will what is left of their homes be taken and never given back. 4) What about my family and friends that can't travel at all.

[#UnleashSean]

You've obviously never left the continent.

You've obviously never tried to emigrate to Canada or the UK.


News flash, unless you're in a very specialized field, or rich, you have no chance.

[#UnleashSean]

I'm honestly curious,  which countries are you talking about?

Uk, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland etc...

Being able to emigrate to America is much easier then any of these places.

[MUBurrow]

Uk, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland etc...
Being able to emigrate to America is much easier then any of these places.

I don't want to derail the thread, but while "open borders" can be a euphemism for the ease of immigration, the legal process for immigration vs the physical restrictions imposed by a nation's borders are two different discussions.

[MU82]

So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?

He's not a Scooper, thank goodness, but I hope you're adding the unquestioned leader of the GOP to your list, as he just criticized Israel and called Hezbollah "very smart." Aina.

[MUBurrow]

I agree that Hamas probably won't be gunning down caravans of evacuees.  But I assume that many Palestinians had fervent supporters/members of Hamas as their neighbors, police force (?), civil servants (again - ?), etc.

Its a hell of a double-edged sword for the average Gaza Palestinian to have to decide whether (1) I will evacuate on the assumption that the Israelis entirely take out Hamas, such that I don't have to fear for my safety upon my return (if ever) or (2) Hamas presents a more existential threat to my safety than the Israeli bombers and occupation force, and I am better off taking my chances that they don't kill me/I don't starve or die of dysentary over the next few weeks, to ensure that I'm not marked as an enemy of whatever godawful fundamentalist Islamic authority exists afterward.

[MuggsyB]

I don't think Hamas would attack them. I'd be pretty shocked by that. But if I'm an average Palestinian, I'm thinking four things. 1) Where do I go? There is no where to go. 2) They told Palestinians to leave Gaza by the southern border then bombed that border crossing 3x the next day, can they trust them? 3) If we leave, will what is left of their homes be taken and never given back. 4) What about my family and friends that can't travel at all.

Of course Hamas "wouldn't do that".  Obviously when you think ahout Hamas the first thing that comes to mind are the wonderful things they've done for innocent Palestinian citizens, how they've tried desperately to improve conditions economically, and are full of gumdrop smiles.  They use their money in Gaza to improve every aspect of the average Palestinian's daily life. They're even headquartered under a hospital!!  Just in case doctors and nurses need their immediate assistance!  They should be beacon for the world for teaching all the kids how to make rockets before they are 7!!

[Hards Alumni]

I agree that Hamas probably won't be gunning down caravans of evacuees.  But I assume that many Palestinians had fervent supporters/members of Hamas as their neighbors, police force (?), civil servants (again - ?), etc.

Its a hell of a double-edged sword for the average Gaza Palestinian to have to decide whether (1) I will evacuate on the assumption that the Israelis entirely take out Hamas, such that I don't have to fear for my safety upon my return (if ever) or (2) Hamas presents a more existential threat to my safety than the Israeli bombers and occupation force, and I am better off taking my chances that they don't kill me/I don't starve or die of dysentary over the next few weeks, to ensure that I'm not marked as an enemy of whatever godawful fundamentalist Islamic authority exists afterward.

IMO, Herzog just said what is going to happen.  He said there will be no separation between civilians in Gaza and Hamas.  Basically, anyone left behind will be treated as a combatant.  This leads me to believe that there will be a full scale invasion of Northern Gaza... and potentially another Nakba where Northern Gaza (at least to start) becomes Israeli land.  Palestinians who flee or leave will not be allowed back.  This is the main reason people don't leave.  They and their descendants will be refugees without a place to call home ever.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/15/75-years-later-israel-blocking-palestinian-refugees-return

[Skatastrophy]

IMO, Herzog just said what is going to happen.  He said there will be no separation between civilians in Gaza and Hamas.  Basically, anyone left behind will be treated as a combatant.  This leads me to believe that there will be a full scale invasion of Northern Gaza... and potentially another Nakba where Northern Gaza (at least to start) becomes Israeli land.  Palestinians who flee or leave will not be allowed back.  This is the main reason people don't leave.  They and their descendants will be refugees without a place to call home ever.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/15/75-years-later-israel-blocking-palestinian-refugees-return

Just looked it up, Whitey Herzog is still alive and kickin

[JWags85]

IMO, Herzog just said what is going to happen.  He said there will be no separation between civilians in Gaza and Hamas.  Basically, anyone left behind will be treated as a combatant.  This leads me to believe that there will be a full scale invasion of Northern Gaza... and potentially another Nakba where Northern Gaza (at least to start) becomes Israeli land.  Palestinians who flee or leave will not be allowed back.  This is the main reason people don't leave.  They and their descendants will be refugees without a place to call home ever.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/15/75-years-later-israel-blocking-palestinian-refugees-return

Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do.  Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.

They can cede that Hamas is evil and should be attacked/eliminated.  But not as to inconvenience anyone in Gaza?  48 hours isn't enough time.  So should they wait a week while Hamas moves all high value targets out and brings more reinforcements/weapons in? 

Hamas is specifically telling people to ignore IDF evacuation orders, so since people are not evacuating, the IDF should just stand down?

It's a horrible and incredibly complex military situation.  But the biggest issue, for me, is that neither the IDF or Hamas cares too much about Palestinian civilian repercussions in pursuit of their current mission.  But the difference, for me, is that excessive civilian casualties actually benefit Hamas and can't be disregarded as it pertains to their strategy and mission.  It's just awful all around

[Jockey]

So much from the "Hate Has No Home Here" mope squad. Hypocrisy is the new mother of invention. Some day y'all will learn. Pretty sure we're now up to 8 who have come out. Hopefully, more of you will grow a pair, come out, and tell us who you really are, aina?

thanks for the info, Roqqet.

[Uncle Rico]

Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do.  Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.

They can cede that Hamas is evil and should be attacked/eliminated.  But not as to inconvenience anyone in Gaza?  48 hours isn't enough time.  So should they wait a week while Hamas moves all high value targets out and brings more reinforcements/weapons in? 

Hamas is specifically telling people to ignore IDF evacuation orders, so since people are not evacuating, the IDF should just stand down?

It's a horrible and incredibly complex military situation.  But the biggest issue, for me, is that neither the IDF or Hamas cares too much about Palestinian civilian repercussions in pursuit of their current mission.  But the difference, for me, is that excessive civilian casualties actually benefit Hamas and can't be disregarded as it pertains to their strategy and mission.  It's just awful all around

Correct.  This is why calling people anti-Semitic who point out it's a complicated situation is silly. 

Israel has a right to defend itself and whoever harbors and protects the leaders of Hamas will suffer.  Sadly, those that don't will also suffer.  Hamas doesn't care and they will be the ones to blame.  They'll get to claim Israel barbarism and create a new generation of terror.

[lawdog77]

How much should Egypt be involved in this? Are they really not allowing refugees to cross the border? How about giving Gaza back to Egypt?

[MUBurrow]

Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do.  Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.
...

Agreed Wags.  Its where the rubber hits the road on "we all agree these attacks were horrendous and Israel has a right and responsibility to defend itself."  What does the exercise of that right and fulfillment of that responsibility actually look like?  You raise a lot of the practical and difficult questions.  I think we all agree that Israel doesn't have the right to carpetbomb Gaza to the ground. Or maybe it does if they have just warned civilians first?  Where in this gray area do Israel's rights to defend itself under international law actually fall?

I have a nagging feeling that the nonrecognition of Palestine matters in some way here.  Without the recognition of Palestine, the "War on Hamas" means about as much as the "War Against Terror" and precludes a formal war declaration as we know it.  With the disclaimer that I am pushing the bounds of my international law knowledge, military action without a formal declaration of war would seem to raise Israel's level of responsibility vis-a-vis collateral damage, because Israel is not formally at war with a recognized civilian government.  I'm probably missing something about the territorial status of Gaza among countries that do not recognize Palestine, but it seems like there should be some downside to not recognizing an entity you then want to declare war on.

[MU82]

Putting aside the potential refugee quagmire for a minute, I do genuinely wonder what some people would like the IDF to do.  Obviously not agreeing with "civilians treated as Hamas" in any way shape or form, but in terms of the counteroffensive.

They can cede that Hamas is evil and should be attacked/eliminated.  But not as to inconvenience anyone in Gaza?  48 hours isn't enough time.  So should they wait a week while Hamas moves all high value targets out and brings more reinforcements/weapons in? 

Hamas is specifically telling people to ignore IDF evacuation orders, so since people are not evacuating, the IDF should just stand down?

It's a horrible and incredibly complex military situation.  But the biggest issue, for me, is that neither the IDF or Hamas cares too much about Palestinian civilian repercussions in pursuit of their current mission.  But the difference, for me, is that excessive civilian casualties actually benefit Hamas and can't be disregarded as it pertains to their strategy and mission.  It's just awful all around

Outstanding post.

I wish I (or anyone) had outstanding answers to the questions you raise.

[Galway Eagle]

Uk, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland etc...

Being able to emigrate to America is much easier then any of these places.

Umm wait till you find out about the open borders between EU nations and the open border between Ireland and UK.

I mean sure if you ignore 26 other EU nations that can enter and live in Germany freely then I'm sure it's real difficult but that's 14% of all nations and a large large chunk of the first world given there's only 31 recognized first world nations in a brief google search. 

[4everwarriors]

This is how a competent leader handles a difficult situation. Brains, balls, and a spine of steel, aina?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625093/amp/DeSantis-launches-Israel-flights-bring-stranded-Jewish-Floridians-slams-Biden-administration-slow-response.html

[Uncle Rico]

This is how a competent leader handles a difficult situation. Brains, balls, and a spine of steel, aina?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625093/amp/DeSantis-launches-Israel-flights-bring-stranded-Jewish-Floridians-slams-Biden-administration-slow-response.html

Republicans should nominate him for president.  Pudding Fingers would probably get a lot more support than the guy that just called Hezbollah smart and Israel dumb