Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Heisenberg]

Well, and that's why he's wrong.  Sowell is the right's answer to Friedman - award winning economists that should probably refrain from commenting much on other topics because they are generally nonsense.

But regardless, the problem with you in this entire topic is that you are engaging in simplistic, absolutist arguments. This isn't a battle to the death between two different worldviews. That is just black and white type thinking that, while it might give you comfort, is just not how the world works.

This is old-fashioned, Machiavellian realpolitik. And your failure to understand this is why you keep stumbling. As I have said previously, this is about Iran trying to break up a potential United States brokered alliance between Saudi Arabia and Israel - the three countries it sees as its greatest enemies.  They are betting that Israel will overplay their hand in response which would make it impossible for an alliance with Saudi Arabia.

This is why Biden is preaching restraint. I'm sure he cares about the Palestinian people, but he also understands that there is more at stake here. He knows that an alliance between our two closest allies in the region to counter Iran is incredibly meaningful. (Especially since Turkey isn't terribly reliable recently.)  Most people fully understand that Israel has a right to defend itself and to severely maim Hamas.  However they aren't going to destroy Hamas - and Hamas isn't going to destroy Israel. Because the methods by which either would occur are not in the long-term strategic interests of anyone.

And then of course, this has to somehow reflect on American politics because....well of course it does. And this is also where you are wrong. This isn't some conflict between wokeism and non-wokeism, because that's not how the American people work either.  The vast majority sit well in the middle of the bell curve, just like they always have.

I encourage you to think a little harder here. Try to understand the motivations of the people and countries involved. They aren't as absolutist as you think - they are rational actors engaging in practical decisions. Your failure to understand this will lead to your failure to really understand how the world works.

Incredibly spot on.

You just cannot help yourself ... the Western Progressive Worldview within you has put permanent blinders on that make you incapable of any other viewpoint. And you are convinced there is only one worldview, the correct one, the one you hold, the one you detail above.

And again, you stick with this line, maybe the third or fourth time you said this.

This isn't a battle to the death between two different worldviews. That is just black and white type thinking that, while it might give you comfort, is just not how the world works.

This is old-fashioned, Machiavellian realpolitik.

Hamas does view it that way. They see it pretty black and white.


More from Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad's interview on Lebanese TV last week, as translated by Lebanese TV
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified

"Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country, because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and must be finished. We are not ashamed to say this, with full force.

"We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.

"The occupation must come to an end."

News anchor: "Occupation where? In the Gaza Strip?"

Hamad: "No, I am talking about all the Palestinian lands."

"The existence of Israel is illogical. The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood, and tears. It is Israel, not us. We are the victims of the occupation. Period. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October 1,000,000 – everything we do is justified."

-----------

What you cannot accept is they (Hamas and many Palestinians) have a completely different worldview. One of death, violence, and oppression. One that wants to genocide 8 million Jews in Israel.

No, this has to be wrong. No one rationally thinks this way. They had to have been driven to this by evil perpetrated upon them, right? So, Israel bears responsibility. Then you find something Israel did wrong (hint: everyone does wrong things) and then say it is Israel's fault.

This is the crux of the issue. Hamad is telling you it. You just cannot, and will not, hear it!

So you use sophisticated words like "complicated," "nuisance," and now "realpolitik." You then dissemble until you make yourself and mini-me above feel better that Hamas and Palestinians are really friendly, gentle people who agree with your worldview. It is all about Isreal.

[Heisenberg]

It's like you're not even trying. Either that or intentionally deceptive.
And as usual, the people you follow - I mean, show up in your feed - on Twitter are morons.


From May 2023

The Biden administration has released the country's first national strategy for combating antisemitism, a landmark plan aimed at addressing a growing problem.
The strategy outlines over 100 steps that federal agencies have committed to completing within a year, and more than 100 specific calls to action aimed at Congress, civil society, state and local governments, academic institutions, businesses and religious communities.


Jewish groups lauded the strategy, for the commitment it signifies, the actions it outlines and even its specific wording.
"It's particularly notable that this approach recognizes that antisemitism is not about politics — it's about principles," ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement. "We are pleased that this strategy comprehensively addresses hate and antisemitism on campus, online, and from extremists on both the far-right and the far-left."


https://www.npr.org/2023/05/25/1178188513/biden-antisemitism-strategy

And how is this working out?

[Heisenberg]

So, they're not supposed to denounce Islamophobia?

Wait ... did you just give me a version of "All Lives Matter?"

[Uncle Rico]

Wait ... did you just give me a version of "All Lives Matter?"

No, the administration represents all Americans.  It is their duty to serve all Americans, regardless of religion.  So, if Islamophobia is rising, they should speak out against it.  It's not complicated. 

[Pakuni]

And how is this working out?

You can just admit you were wrong.

[Heisenberg]

Wall Street titans help to fuel Ivy League donor revolt
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/02/wall-street-titans-help-to-fuel-ivy-league-donor-revolt-.html

At least 400 Penn alumni and donors joined a recent call hosted by former class presidents and several speakers said they were frustrated with the university's current leadership, according to a person familiar. Rowan was one of the final speakers on the call, where he raised his own issues about the school, this person explained.

Beyond the calls with donors and alumni, Rowan and other finance executives critical of the universities have been in contact through text messages about their concerns with the schools. One of the people on these text message chains with Rowan is Bill Ackman, CEO of hedge fund Pershing Square, according to a person briefed on the matter.

The individuals were granted anonymity in order to speak freely about private conversations.

[MuggsyB]

I heard a brief interview earlier today from two Jewish students, one at NYU and the other at Barnard/Columbia.  They rightly criticized how both of these esteemed Universities are handling the ignominious hate hurled towards them.  They are hearing "Gas the Jews" and other horrofic chants every freaking day.  There are professors there essentially defending what happened on Oct. 7th.  This is an absolute disgrace and all of us should be far, far, more supportive of our Jewish citizens.

[Heisenberg]

You can just admit you were wrong.

You mean, why don't I just accept your worldview, the only one that is right?

[Uncle Rico]

You mean, why don't I just accept your worldview, the only one that is right?

Huh

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

I heard a brief interview earlier today from two Jewish students, one at NYU and the other at Barnard/Columbia.  They rightly criticized how both of these esteemed Universities are handling the ignominious hate hurled towards them.  They are hearing "Gas the Jews" and other horrofic chants every freaking day.  There are professors there essentially defending what happened on Oct. 7th.  This is an absolute disgrace and all of us should be far, far, more supportive of our Jewish citizens.

Pretty much everyone here (I won't speak in totality because, who knows) agrees this is hate speech and completely in support of fighting anti Semitism. What many here have pointed out, is supporting one group of people does not mean you need to aggressively marginalize another.

[4everwarriors]

Nah Muggs, this is the way it started in Nazi Germany. History repeats itself and once again antisemitism rears its ugly head. Actually, it never goes away, hey?

[Heisenberg]

Not all Western Progressives accept the only accepted worldview.



Why Israel must fight on
Israel's bombardment of Gaza is taking a terrible toll. But unless Hamas's power is broken, peace will remain out of reach
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/11/02/why-israel-must-fight-on

The only way out of the cycle of violence is to destroy Hamas's rule—which means killing its senior leaders and smashing its military infrastructure. The suggestion that a war which entails the deaths of thousands of innocent people can lead to peace will appal many. In the past one act of violence has led to the next. That is indeed the great risk today.

However, while Hamas runs Gaza, peace is impossible. Israelis will feel unsafe, so their government will strike Gaza pre-emptively every time Hamas threatens. Suffocated by permanently tight Israeli security and killed as Hamas's human shields in pre-emptive Israeli raids, Palestinians will be radicalised. The only way forward is to weaken its control while building the conditions for something new to emerge.

[Heisenberg]

Huh

0 of 10

[4everwarriors]

Pretty much everyone here (I won't speak in totality because, who knows) agrees this is hate speech and completely in support of fighting anti Semitism. What many here have pointed out, is supporting one group of people does not mean you need to aggressively marginalize another.

Nah, its okay to hate Jews, aina?

[MU82]

House Republicans pushed through an aide package to Israel that has no chance of passing the Senate; they stripped out aide to Ukraine and struck down already-improved funding for the IRS to chase down rich tax cheats.

It's DOA and they know it, just a political ploy. Even many of their fellow Republicans, especially in the Senate, are decrying it.

They aren't serious people.

[Pakuni]

You mean, why don't I just accept your worldview, the only one that is right?

No, I mean you obviously came here to claim the Biden administration is ignoring antisemitism and instead focusing on Islamophobia to win votes in Michigan.
Alas, you were too lazy to do your research and see that the Biden administration nearly six months ago launched the nation's first and only strategy for combating antisemitism, a plan that's earned praise from the Jewish community.
That's not my worldview. That's not an opinion. Those are facts. Which you consistently get wrong
Unfortunately for you, your world view is "facts no matta."

[Uncle Rico]

House Republicans pushed through an aide package to Israel that has no chance of passing the Senate; they stripped out aide to Ukraine and struck down already-improved funding for the IRS to chase down rich tax cheats.

It's DOA and they know it, just a political ploy. Even many of their fellow Republicans, especially in the Senate, are decrying it.

They aren't serious people.

Wonder if the rich donors fighting the Ivies will weigh in on this over their concern with supporting Israel?  Have to think so

[Goose]

Muggsy

I have stayed out of this thread for 88 pages and want you to know I agree with much of your sentiment. I am outraged with what happened in 10/7, support Israel 100% and am disgusted by the antisemitism in the world.

I appreciate your passion and your concern for Israel and the Jewish Community. This is beyond a serious global situation and I believe many on here are misguided.

Keep up the fight, I am pro- Muggsy!!

[MU82]

Meanwhile, from the WSJ ...

The Russian paramilitary group Wagner plans to provide an air-defense system to Hezbollah, U.S. officials say, citing intelligence.

This comes amid broader concerns that Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed Lebanese militia, may open up a northern front against Israel, which is fighting Hamas in Gaza. The Russian Embassy didn't respond to a request for comment. A spokesman for the White House's National Security Council declined to comment. The U.S. has positioned an aircraft carrier in the Eastern Mediterranean to try to deter Hezbollah and Iran.

That's OK. Putin's not that bad. Very strong. Very smart, just like Hezbollah. He's such a swell guy that the world should just give him Ukraine.

[4everwarriors]

Muggsy for President, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

Meanwhile, from the WSJ ...

The Russian paramilitary group Wagner plans to provide an air-defense system to Hezbollah, U.S. officials say, citing intelligence.

This comes amid broader concerns that Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed Lebanese militia, may open up a northern front against Israel, which is fighting Hamas in Gaza. The Russian Embassy didn't respond to a request for comment. A spokesman for the White House's National Security Council declined to comment. The U.S. has positioned an aircraft carrier in the Eastern Mediterranean to try to deter Hezbollah and Iran.

That's OK. Putin's not that bad. Very strong. Very smart, just like Hezbollah. He's such a swell guy that the world should just give him Ukraine.

Interesting the amount of time spent fighting culture wars in the thread on the war Israel is fighting.  The current administration is fully supporting Israeli response while congress plays political games delaying financial support.

Now, it might just be me, the anti-semite, that thinks delaying the funding while playing political games is a problem if you support Israel.

Can two things be true?  Gasp.  Maybe.  Antisemitism is on the rise and it's disgusting.  It's also a sad state of affairs when congress plays political games with someone they claim is our most important ally.

Now back to the culture wars in this thread

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Nah, its okay to hate Jews, aina?

By your apparent definition of what Jews worldwide should and shouldn't support, I'm sure you believe that wholeheartedly

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Interesting the amount of time spent fighting culture wars in the thread on the war Israel is fighting.  The current administration is fully supporting Israeli response while congress plays political games delaying financial support.

Now, it might just be me, the anti-semite, that thinks delaying the funding while playing political games is a problem if you support Israel.

Can two things be true?  Gasp.  Maybe.  Antisemitism is on the rise and it's disgusting.  It's also a sad state of affairs when congress plays political games with someone they claim is our most important ally.

Now back to the culture wars in this thread

I thought government handouts were woke

[Heisenberg]

House Republicans pushed through an aide package to Israel that has no chance of passing the Senate; they stripped out aide to Ukraine and struck down already-improved funding for the IRS to chase down rich tax cheats.

It's DOA and they know it, just a political ploy. Even many of their fellow Republicans, especially in the Senate, are decrying it.

They aren't serious people.

Why is the House wrong? Why isn't the Senate wrong?

They can pass Israeli aid now and take up those other issues separately.

[Uncle Rico]

I thought government handouts were woke

In seriousness, if you support Israel and want Hamas and Hezbollah defeated, you'd be calling your congressperson and tell them to quit playing games. 

Hezbollah is BEING SUPPORTED BY RUSSIA AND FUNDING THE UKRAINE FIGHT ALSO SUPPORTS ISRAEL by making the enemies of Israel focus more energy on the fiasco of the Russian invasion into Ukraine.