Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[21Jumpstreet]

A new twist on "from the river to the sea"

https://x.com/marionawfal/status/1723446783244644856?s=61&t=Kba4MD7iUYHMRlrUOaqrng

🚨JUST IN - "WE FIGHT WHEREVER WE MUST: LEBANON, SYRIA, JORDAN AND THE RED SEA"

Netanyahu:

"I warned Hezbollah, don't enter the war, it would be your worst mistake

All Hamas operatives must die, and we are going to continue full force.

We are also very well-prepared in the North"

This war seems far from coming to an end 😢

So, this is okay?

[MuggsyB]

Fair

Uh....not fair.  And what happened when they actually left Gaza in 2005?  What exactly do you think a Palestinian State in either Gaza, the West Bank , or  both would look like moving forward,?  Why do you think they want to live side by side in peace with Israel?  Based on what exactly?  Did the PA show any sympathy whatsoever towards Israel after 1500 civilizations were murdered? 

[Pakuni]

In December 2000 when an acutal propsal was offered for a true two-state solution, by Clinton and Israel, Arafat said no and went home. So much for the Olso accords.

You can read Ambassador Dennis Ross' account of how the PLO said no. This would also be the former MU professor Dennis Ross

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207243717/23-years-ago-israelis-and-palestinians-were-talking-about-a-two-state-solution

This is, at best, an incomplete telling of how the Oslo Accords fell apart. You're trying to mislead us here into believing that the deal broke down when Arafat walks away in the episode Ross recounts here. In reality, negotiations and efforts to implement the deal continued on both sides for years after.

An no, this isn't opinion, it's fact. You seem unable to tell the difference. I'd like to think you're just playing dumb, and not actually ... well, you know.

[21Jumpstreet]

Uh....not fair.  And what happened when they actually left Gaza in 2005?  What exactly do you think a Palestinian State in either Gaza, the West Bank , or  both would look like moving forward,?  Why do you think they want to live side by side in peace with Israel?  Based on what exactly?  Did the PA show any sympathy whatsoever towards Israel after 1500 civilizations were murdered?

Because those outside the extremes want peace. There has been peace. This is a nobody's right when everybody's wrong situation. And before you lambast me and call me an anti-Semite, yes, both Hamas and extremist Israel leadership have been aggressors. Perhaps, like most places (I won't say all), a less extreme regime would help. No sane person wants an existence where they fear being bombed, attacked, murdered. They want peace.

Question for you, and this is an honest one, I am clearly not as educated on the region or history as some are here. Whether right or wrong, justified or not, do you believe Israel actually left Gaza in 2005? What I mean is, you say there are no Israelis or Jews in Gaza, okay, I will accept that. Has Israel actually left if its policies, procedures, protections, whatever you want to call them affect the daily lives of Gazans or take away some control Gazans have over their own existence? Is any of the news info where it talks about Israel's control over supplies, water, oil, medicine, electricity, freedom true? Perhaps it isn't, and I should fully blame the Palestinians for their existence?

As you crush me for wanting a ceasefire, peace, two state existence as being naive and Western Progressive (whatever the hell that means) it boggles my mind that the alternative is complete destruction of another country, another people, freedom in the mindset of Western Authortarian Tyranny (I can make up nonsense labels, too). I just don't understand how anyone can want death, destruction, and war, but perhaps that is naive.

[Heisenberg]

This is, at best, an incomplete telling of how the Oslo Accords fell apart. You're trying to mislead us here into believing that the deal broke down when Arafat walks away in the episode Ross recounts here. In reality, negotiations and efforts to implement the deal continued on both sides for years after.

An no, this isn't opinion, it's fact. You seem unable to tell the difference. I'd like to think you're just playing dumb, and not actually ... well, you know.

And we still don't have a deal, 23 years later. And we still don't have a Palestinian proposed two state map, becuase have have never offered one, becuyase they don't want a two state solution.

[Heisenberg]

So, this is okay?

What is not okay?

Hezbollah entering the war?

[The Sultan]

This is, at best, an incomplete telling of how the Oslo Accords fell apart. You're trying to mislead us here into believing that the deal broke down when Arafat walks away in the episode Ross recounts here. In reality, negotiations and efforts to implement the deal continued on both sides for years after.

An no, this isn't opinion, it's fact. You seem unable to tell the difference. I'd like to think you're just playing dumb, and not actually ... well, you know.

Yep. He's lying again.

[The Sultan]

And we still don't have a deal, 23 years later. And we still don't have a Palestinian proposed two state map, becuase have have never offered one, becuyase they don't want a two state solution.

Leaps to conclusions based on no evidence. IOW more lies.

[Heisenberg]

Because those outside the extremes want peace. There has been peace. This is a nobody's right when everybody's wrong situation. And before you lambast me and call me an anti-Semite, yes, both Hamas and extremist Israel leadership have been aggressors. Perhaps, like most places (I won't say all), a less extreme regime would help. No sane person wants an existence where they fear being bombed, attacked, murdered. They want peace.

Question for you, and this is an honest one, I am clearly not as educated on the region or history as some are here. Whether right or wrong, justified or not, do you believe Israel actually left Gaza in 2005? What I mean is, you say there are no Israelis or Jews in Gaza, okay, I will accept that. Has Israel actually left if its policies, procedures, protections, whatever you want to call them affect the daily lives of Gazans or take away some control Gazans have over their own existence? Is any of the news info where it talks about Israel's control over supplies, water, oil, medicine, electricity, freedom true? Perhaps it isn't, and I should fully blame the Palestinians for their existence?

As you crush me for wanting a ceasefire, peace, two state existence as being naive and Western Progressive (whatever the hell that means) it boggles my mind that the alternative is complete destruction of another country, another people, freedom in the mindset of Western Authortarian Tyranny (I can make up nonsense labels, too). I just don't understand how anyone can want death, destruction, and war, but perhaps that is naive.

Isreal has had a tight blockcade on Gaza for years becasue Hamas and PIJ ave used Gaza to launch terror attacks into Isreal (mainly rockets), They restrict the importation of material that can be used to make weapons.

This is why Hamas resorted to digging up water pipes to make rockets out of them, and left Gaza dependent on Isreal for water. Further Gaza has a acquifer that runs under it and by digging up the water pipes and mismanaging it, Hamas polluted it with wasterwater and it is now unsable.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/water-gaza-scarce-polluted-and-mostly-unfit-use#:~:text=The%20coastal%20aquifer%2C%20which%20Gaza,the%20aquifer%20is%20non%2Dpotable.

The Gazans have allowed their action to take away control of their daily lives. It happened again on October 7 and they have not lost even more control of their lives.

[Heisenberg]

Leaps to conclusions based on no evidence. IOW more lies.

Do you have a proposed two state map from the Palestinians are not?

Simple question, where is their plan?

[21Jumpstreet]

What is not okay?

Hezbollah entering the war?

You mentioned it as a new twist on from the river to the sea, and cited a video of BN, which I assumed meant you are supporting Israel's version of the charged language and policy you despise. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, apologies.

[21Jumpstreet]

Isreal has had a tight blockcade on Gaza for years becasue Hamas and PIJ ave used Gaza to launch terror attacks into Isreal (mainly rockets), They restrict the importation of material that can be used to make weapons.

This is why Hamas resorted to digging up water pipes to make rockets out of them, and left Gaza dependent on Isreal for water. Further Gaza has a acquifer that runs under it and by digging up the water pipes and mismanaging it, Hamas polluted it with wasterwater and it is now unsable.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/water-gaza-scarce-polluted-and-mostly-unfit-use#:~:text=The%20coastal%20aquifer%2C%20which%20Gaza,the%20aquifer%20is%20non%2Dpotable.

The Gazans have allowed their action to take away control of their daily lives. It happened again on October 7 and they have not lost even more control of their lives.

I didn't see in the article you cite any reference to Israel or Gaza being the issue. Do you know if Israel has intentionally blocked water, medicine, supplies, electricity from Gaza?

The article does talk about the minimum levels of water consumption and then compares Israel and Gaza. Does Israel have any responsibility to the Gazans to allow for/assist in increasing the fresh water supply to Gaza? Does Israel have control over the source of fresh water or its transport? Honest questions.

[The Sultan]

Do you have a proposed two state map from the Palestinians are not?

Simple question, where is their plan?

Shifting goalposts from earlier. You said "they always say no." That's wrong. Of course when you are shown to be wrong, you don't admit it. You just say "ShOw Me ThE mAp!!!"

You're a joke.

[MuggsyB]

Isreal has had a tight blockcade on Gaza for years becasue Hamas and PIJ ave used Gaza to launch terror attacks into Isreal (mainly rockets), They restrict the importation of material that can be used to make weapons.

This is why Hamas resorted to digging up water pipes to make rockets out of them, and left Gaza dependent on Isreal for water. Further Gaza has a acquifer that runs under it and by digging up the water pipes and mismanaging it, Hamas polluted it with wasterwater and it is now unsable.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/water-gaza-scarce-polluted-and-mostly-unfit-use#:~:text=The%20coastal%20aquifer%2C%20which%20Gaza,the%20aquifer%20is%20non%2Dpotable.

The Gazans have allowed their action to take away control of their daily lives. It happened again on October 7 and they have not lost even more control of their lives.

Correct.  I'm not sure why people don't grasp this.  If there was no blockade what exactly do people think would happen?  If every person in Israel put their hands up tomorrow Hamas would murder every single one of them.  If Hamas put their hands up and released the hostages what do people think Israel would do? 

[Pakuni]

And we still don't have a deal, 23 years later. And we still don't have a Palestinian proposed two state map, becuase have have never offered one, becuyase they don't want a two state solution.

1. Show me Israel's maps for a two-state solution.
2. We don't have a deal because the dealmakers either died (Arafat), were murdered (Rabin), left office (Clinton, Barak) or were pushed to the side and had their power diminished (Abbas) by hardliners on both sides (Hamas, Hezbollah, Netanyahu, Sharon) who were intent on spiking any agreement.

The reality is - as with most things - far more complex than you present it. The deal didn't fall apart because Arafat walked away from one negotiating session. Heck, two months after that occurred, Arafat and Barak held face-to-face meetings at Barak's home.The deal fell apart because hardliners on both sides took power and wanted it to fall apart.

[Heisenberg]

Shifting goalposts from earlier. You said "they always say no." That's wrong. Of course when you are shown to be wrong, you don't admit it. You just say "ShOw Me ThE mAp!!!"

You're a joke.

Palestinian leaders have said no to every proposed for a two state solution since 1948. They have never proposed a two-stage solution. Palestinian leaders of constantly called on the end of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people.

[Heisenberg]

I didn't see in the article you cite any reference to Israel or Gaza being the issue. Do you know if Israel has intentionally blocked water, medicine, supplies, electricity from Gaza?

The article does talk about the minimum levels of water consumption and then compares Israel and Gaza. Does Israel have any responsibility to the Gazans to allow for/assist in increasing the fresh water supply to Gaza? Does Israel have control over the source of fresh water or its transport? Honest questions.

Gaza has an aquifer that if managed properly can provide all the water that the 2 million Gazans need. It was not managed properly and by digging up the water pipes it polluted it and now it's unusable. That is not Israel's fault.

As a consequence, Gaza is depended on Israel for water, electricity, and mobile phone service. They had 17 years to build their own systems, and they did not. They were giving money by the UN and the world to do this, and they diverted it towards building, tunnels, and creating tour on Israel.

[MU82]

Good article about the internal problems the Democrat party is having with Israel.

That actually was a good article, Douchey. It was mostly anecdotal, but it was an interesting read nonetheless.

Now do a little googling about the internal problems Republicans are having with all of the anti-Semites in their party, starting with the white-supremacist-supporting 45th president, moving to the likes of Jewish Space Laser and Gosar, and filtering down to neo-Nazi-loving legislators in Texas and other states. Thanks!

Bill Ackman a few hours ago

‎The argument before was: "He is the only one who can beat ⁦‪@realDonaldTrump‬⁩." Recent polling makes it increasingly clear that he will lose to Trump. The polls will only get worse as he deteriorates and the risk in the world increases.

‎A growing number of liberal Democrats that I know who would never vote for Trump 'over their dead body' have recently told me that if the election were held today and the choice was Biden or Trump, they would vote for Trump.

Thanks for this political screed that really had nothing to do with "Israel is at War," but did give you a way to make your personal political points. Well done.

I mean, it's good to know that Bill Ackman singlehandedly could solve all of the problems in the Middle East if only there were a different U.S. president. Now remind us ... why does what Bill Ackman says matter any more than what you or I or any other Scooper or LeBron or Bloomberg or Levin or Maddow or Ingraham or anyone else might say?

If we're gonna throw out the "I know liberal Dems, and they tell me ... " crapola, I know a freakin' LOT of liberal Democrats, and there isn't a single one who would ever, ever, ever, under any circumstance, vote for the 91-felony Criminal Defendant. A few would at least consider voting for Jill Stein or some other non-major-party candidate, but 0.00% would vote for the guy they consider to be pure evil. But sure, Ackman and you each know a bazillion liberals who will vote for a person who embraces anti-Semites because ... Israel? OK.

Oh, and in November 2019, here's what a compilation of polls said about potential matchups between Trump and Sanders, Warren, Harris and Buttigieg:



Do you really think those polls a year before the 2020 election were "right," and that any of those four would have easily defeated your guy? Why are polls always "right" when y'all like the result they suggest but "wrong" when you don't?

[21Jumpstreet]

Gaza has an aquifer that if managed properly can provide all the water that the 2 million Gazans need. It was not managed properly and by digging up the water pipes it polluted it and now it's unusable. That is not Israel's fault.

As a consequence, Gaza is depended on Israel for water, electricity, and mobile phone service. They had 17 years to build their own systems, and they did not. They were giving money by the UN and the world to do this, and they diverted it towards building, tunnels, and creating tour on Israel.

Is Israel to blame if it is the only solution to the water crisis in Gaza and actively works to maintain and exacerbate the crisis?

Is Israel to blame for the blockades? Or, the controlling electricity or fuel that run the desalination plants and pumps?

I agree that the water crisis responsibility is squarely on the Palestine leadership, is it also on Israeli leadership? And, if Israel has some of the power and control, do they have at least some of the responsibility?

[JWags85]

Not to distract from whatever Heisey's current tangent is, but going back a bit, I think there is interesting nuance to "Israel is losing support".

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think nuance on what "Israel" means and who the support is referring to.  Netanyahu and his government losing support?  Absolutely.  Israel, its people, and its collective cause?  I don't know if I agree...

Why?  Cause I think we need to look at who is exactly opposing Israel.  Both the pro-Israel and pro-Palestine sides have extremes.  We see the former here every day.  But I think the pro-Palestine support surge is interesting.  Look at the marches, look at the social media postings, etc...  By and large its many people who had no dog in the fight going back 3 months, probably couldn't have pointed out Gaza on a map, and who weren't previously supportive of Israel and have switched. 

Screaming and yelling about Israel as a genocidal apartheid state, "colonizers", "a country built on a mission of subjugation" etc...  I'm not going to recklessly label them anti-Semitic, but whether they realize it or not, the utopia they are envisioning for a "Free Palestine" is one without Israel.  I'm not saying they are calling for the killing and destruction of Israel, but rather embracing a half baked idea that has no realistic grounding in what peace could actually look like.  Because they are immersed in a black and white social media world of binary good and bad, they feel Palestine is good and Israel bad, so it should all swing that way.

Like I alluded to in a previous post, lets say the Free Palestine movement got EVERYTHING they wanted.  Tomorrow Israel is gone, Palestinians now control everything from Jordan to the Med. Its still gonna be a mess cause its Hamas and current Fatah leadership running everything.  But hey, the "colonizers" are gone!!

[21Jumpstreet]

Not to distract from whatever Heisey's current tangent is, but going back a bit, I think there is interesting nuance to "Israel is losing support".

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think nuance on what "Israel" means and who the support is referring to.  Netanyahu and his government losing support?  Absolutely.  Israel, its people, and its collective cause?  I don't know if I agree...

Why?  Cause I think we need to look at who is exactly opposing Israel.  Both the pro-Israel and pro-Palestine sides have extremes.  We see the former here every day.  But I think the pro-Palestine support surge is interesting.  Look at the marches, look at the social media postings, etc...  By and large its many people who had no dog in the fight going back 3 months, probably couldn't have pointed out Gaza on a map, and who weren't previously supportive of Israel and have switched. 

Screaming and yelling about Israel as a genocidal apartheid state, "colonizers", "a country built on a mission of subjugation" etc...  I'm not going to recklessly label them anti-Semitic, but whether they realize it or not, the utopia they are envisioning for a "Free Palestine" is one without Israel.  I'm not saying they are calling for the killing and destruction of Israel, but rather embracing a half baked idea that has no realistic grounding in what peace could actually look like.  Because they are immersed in a black and white social media world of binary good and bad, they feel Palestine is good and Israel bad, so it should all swing that way.

Like I alluded to in a previous post, lets say the Free Palestine movement got EVERYTHING they wanted.  Tomorrow Israel is gone, Palestinians now control everything from Jordan to the Med. Its still gonna be a mess cause its Hamas and current Fatah leadership running everything.  But hey, the "colonizers" are gone!!

Lots of quality in your first two paragraphs. Very good thought on using words carefully. When I say Israel is losing support, I mean BN and the government. That is absolutely on me, as I have repeatedly made the statement that Hamas is not Palestine. BN and the extremist government is not Israel. Thank you for that. I do not believe Israel as a country is losing support, as I agree many had no idea about this area of the world or his history before a month ago and will get back to not caring in another.

But, then you sort of go away from your so well said start and go against your so well thought out stance to use words carefully. Does capital FP Free Palestine mean the obliteration and removal of Israel and the entirety of the followers of Judaism? If yes, that's abhorrent. Does my lowercase free Palestine mean the same to you or others? If so, how do you discuss the idea of a free Palestine and a free Israel in terms and capital letters that are not extremist in nature or perception?

Is it really a black and white situation? Is it really Palestine good, Israel bad? The reverse? Oppressed good, oppressors bad? Or is it intellectual laziness (not you, the idea)? Even in these three questions, there is a ton of nuance and vagueness. Who is the oppressor? The oppressed? What is good?

[The Sultan]

Palestinian leaders have said no to every proposed for a two state solution since 1948. They have never proposed a two-stage solution. Palestinian leaders of constantly called on the end of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people.

Nope

[forgetful]

Palestinian leaders have said no to every proposed for a two state solution since 1948. They have never proposed a two-stage solution.

I've posted previous plans offered by Palestinians here multiple times. Even commented on the fact that even the Hamas charter also proposes a 2-state solution, which I admitted that I view it as an empty offer as they want to use it as a way to get independence, and then to continue to fight Israel.

You ignore all them, because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. So you make up crap instead.

And regarding the Clinton negotiations. They didn't end because Arafat walked away. That is revisionist history and BS. Barak walked away, because they were having new elections and he was polling very low and was likely to lose, in part because of the negotiations. He was replaced by Sharon.

And Arafat largely was against some aspects of the plan, like giving the entire Temple Mount to Israel, including the El-Aqsa Mosque. Those disagreements were considered outside of the "Clinton Parameters," as the parameters all included the Temple Mount being given to Israel.

So again, you are making up history.

[JWags85]

Lots of quality in your first two paragraphs. Very good thought on using words carefully. When I say Israel is losing support, I mean BN and the government. That is absolutely on me, as I have repeatedly made the statement that Hamas is not Palestine. BN and the extremist government is not Israel. Thank you for that. I do not believe Israel as a country is losing support, as I agree many had no idea about this area of the world or his history before a month ago and will get back to not caring in another.

But, then you sort of go away from your so well said start and go against your so well thought out stance to use words carefully. Does capital FP Free Palestine mean the obliteration and removal of Israel and the entirety of the followers of Judaism? If yes, that's abhorrent. Does my lowercase free Palestine mean the same to you or others? If so, how do you discuss the idea of a free Palestine and a free Israel in terms and capital letters that are not extremist in nature or perception?

Is it really a black and white situation? Is it really Palestine good, Israel bad? The reverse? Oppressed good, oppressors bad? Or is it intellectual laziness (not you, the idea)? Even in these three questions, there is a ton of nuance and vagueness. Who is the oppressor? The oppressed? What is good?

Good call out.  And I'll clarify cause you're right, I blended it a bit.

"free Palestine" is to me, just any benefit of the Palestinian people and self rule, ideally a solid and relatively peaceful two state solution.  I don't think its fundamentally anti-Israel in any way, and its more focused on self determination.

"Free Palestine" was, IMO, not really different from the above, until recently.  And not everyone who is loudly and proudly proclaiming FP right now is anti-Israel/Zionism/etc.. but its been co-opted by many who, at best, are ill informed and just looking to get riled up about something.

And there is not "good and evil" holistically, except for Hamas, IMO.  I think there are people within Israel government/the IDF who can be thought of as having evil intentions, but I don't think Israel is evil in totality.

I think Israel is an oppressor, but some of what is oppressive I don't necessarily blame them for.  But at the same time, I think Hamas and the government of the West Bank are oppressive as well.  There is a multitude of unfortunate and oppressive factors that are affecting the Palestinian people, but its usually just funneled all into venom at Israel.

[forgetful]

No idea why I am engaging H2O, but I'll try again to impart some actual history.

Up until the late 80's (with the exception of the original UN partition plan in 1948), there were no offers by Israel or the US for a 2-state solution. Everything that was discussed, and offered by Israel was "granting autonomy to Palestinians," with no plan ever for them to have their own state (that I'm aware of). That means they would always be under threat from Israel, and would have no means to stop new settlements, as they had no legal rights as a state (think Gaza post 2005).

In the late 80's and 90's actual progress was made, and Arafat was willing to negotiate on 2-state solutions. Including their own proposals of what the states would look like...largely based on the 1967-68 borders. As part of this, Jordan gave up the West Bank to Palestine to show good faith towards a peace plan and a 2-state solution.

This was largely led by more moderate left-wing Israeli Prime Ministers, that were open to a 2-state solution.

This effectively ended when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Right-Wing extremists that opposed his progress to a 2-state solution. And, in the next elections his successor (Peres) was ousted, to a large part because of his part in 2-state negotiations.

He was succeeded by Netanyahu...part of the Likud Party.

The Likud party to this date, has in their official charter/policies language saying they are against a Palestinian state ever being created west of the Jordan River.

Clinton was able to restart negotiations progress when Ehud Barak was in charge. Again, he was part of the left-wing parties open to 2-state solutions. And he was voted out, because of it.

This is a long historical process, where within each demographic there are hard core opponents to allowing anything resembling a 2-state solution. There have been interludes for both groups that had leaders that really wanted a 2-state solution, but they were often either voted out, assassinated, or on the Palestinian side sabotaged by extremist terrorist groups hell-bent on blocking a 2-state solution, and/or under pressure from these groups to not move forward on a deal (e.g. threat of removal/coup).

One of the reasons no deal has ever been reached by the moderates is because: What do you do with Jerusalem, and more importantly the Temple Mount? Neither side wants to give up the Temple Mount (even moderates).

Pretending that the Palestinians have never made any proposals, and/or are the only historic block to a 2-state solution/peace plan is frankly at best naive, at worst intentionally deceiving.

Note: Also, this likely isn't a perfect historical recount of events. It was written faster than I would normally like to do for a historical summary. Just meant to highlight complexities of the historical situation, and highlight some of the historical opposition form (Israel...aka the side H2O ignores).