Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[forgetful]

Do you believe Hamas uses human shields?

Define human shields.

I think this article does a good job of capturing the story/situation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/human-shield-israel-claim-hamas-command-centre-under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Bombing in a war has never been prosecuted as collective punishment.

Plaque lives matter said it, I'll edit above. That's pretty funny that they're arguing around their own point, made me think someone else must have said it.

Vaporized it was hyperbole, yeah. My bad. I am upset a refugee camp was airstruck.

But you're the one pushing semantics of war crime definitions for determining acceptable levels of civilian mortality.

So if that makes you want to claim internet points? Go for it. I'll maintain we can agree to disagree still.

I've maintained a consistent stance on collateral damage that killing civilians is bad no matter who pulls the trigger. So not sure what you're on about me arguing around.

[Skatastrophy]

Vaporized it was hyperbole, yeah. My bad.

But you're the one pushing semantics of war crime definitions for determining acceptable levels of civilian mortality.

So if that makes you want to claim internet points? Go for it. I'll maintain we can agree to disagree still.

I've maintained a consistent stance on collateral damage that killing civilians is bad no matter who pulls the trigger. So not sure what you're on about me arguing around.

I'm not on you I don't think. I agree that civilian deaths should be avoided if possible. Dropping like 8 bombs to kill one dude in a refugee camp is bad.

But collective punishment has a specific definition that doesn't have to do with bombing during a war. And the whole camp wasn't vaporized. That's it. Everything else I typed was trying to support my statements. I think being specific and accurate helps talk about these things that are so emotionally charged for folks.

[Pakuni]

Bombing in a war has never been prosecuted as collective punishment.

Bombing of civilian targets has been prosecuted as a war crime.
But at this point, you're just arguing semantics.



.

[Heisenberg]

Killing 50 civilians to get one Hamas leader seems to fit the definition.

1 Collective punishment is a form of sanction imposed on persons or a group of persons in response to a crime committed by one of them or a member of the group

https://opil.ouplaw.com/display/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e269#law-9780199231690-e269-div1-1

Gaza Health Ministry says 52 were killed in a camp of 116,000.  Assume it is less (remember, the Gaza Health Ministry initially said 500 were killed in a hospital attack, which is now understood to be 10 to 50 in a parking lot next to the hospital via a failed rocket.)

Israel is claiming they killed a Hamas Commander and several Hamas fighters when they sent a bomb (via a fighter) into a Hamas tunnel under the camp. It set off "secondary explosions" (meaning weapons in the tunnel), causing the ground above the tunnel to collapse. Israel believes this was the primary catalyst for the civilian casualties. Israel said collapsing ground when blowing up tunnels and causing collateral damage above it is well understood to be a consequence of attacking a tunnel.

To be clear, Israel is saying they had to launch more than one bomb to blow up the tunnel. They are saying they cannot separate civilian casualties from their bombs directly and the collapse of the tunnel.

Hamas was using the camp to hide personnel, command and control, and weapons. Israel said they dropped flyers two weeks ago and have given repeated warnings for civilians to leave the area.

And Israel re-iterated that their rules of engagement have changed. After the warnings, they are going to act, and while they will attempt to minimize civilian casualties, they will no longer let the prospects of civilian casualties stop them.

----

Who committed the war crime?

[Pakuni]

Gaza Health Ministry says 52 were killed in a camp of 116,000.  Assume it is less (remember, the Gaza Health Ministry initially said 500 were killed in a hospital attack, which is now understood to be 10 to 50 in a parking lot next to the hospital via a failed rocket.)

Israel is claiming they killed a Hamas Commander and several Hamas fighters when they sent a bomb (via a fighter) into a Hamas tunnel under the camp. It set off "secondary explosions" (meaning weapons in the tunnel), causing the ground above the tunnel to collapse. Israel believes this was the primary catalyst for the civilian casualties. Israel said collapsing ground when blowing up tunnels and causing collateral damage above it is well understood to be a consequence of attacking a tunnel.

To be clear, Israel is saying they had to launch more than one bomb to blow up the tunnel. They are saying they cannot separate civilian casualties from their bombs directly and the collapse of the tunnel.

Hamas was using the camp to hide personnel, command and control, and weapons. Israel said they dropped flyers two weeks ago and have given repeated warnings for civilians to leave the area.

And Israel re-iterated that their rules of engagement have changed. After the warnings, they are going to act, and while they will attempt to minimize civilian casualties, they will no longer let the prospects of civilian casualties stop them.

----

Who committed the war crime?

You are correct to be skeptical of the Gaza Health Ministry.
You are naive to be trusting of the IDF.

[Heisenberg]

You are correct to be skeptical of the Gaza Health Ministry.
You are naive to be trusting of the IDF.

Let's remind everyone how far this narrative has moved in six hours.

Does bombing a refugee camp count as indiscriminate? Or still not yet

[MuggsyB]

Good post, and you're right. Sam Harris indeed had an excellent essay on the sin of Moral Equivalence.

https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/338-the-sin-of-moral-equivalence

He drives home the point that incompatible worldviews will never be compatible. And the worst thing we can do is make a moral equivalence of the two.

---
My add

And these views will be in perpetual conflict, constantly killing each other until the end of time, until one side prevails over the other.

And since these two sides cannot co-exist, I've asked which side you are on. You have to pick one. There is no middle ground, or the middle ground is constant war and death, and that is untenable.

That's a very good 15 min synopsis.  I don't know what his solutions are as far as worldwide jihadists but his points are well taken.

[forgetful]

Bombing in a war has never been prosecuted as collective punishment.

The most damning possible example of war crimes today though wasn't directly that bombing, it was the leaked document from the Israeli Intelligence Ministry recommending to use this opportunity to forcibly resettle 2.2 million Palestinians from Gaza in the Northern Sinai and constructing a buffer zone along the Israeli border to prevent their return. 

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/90869

Israel has tried to distance itself as much as possible from the document, claiming it was a draft, because it would document the intent to commit multiple war crimes, including:

Deportation (considered a crime against humanity).
Forcible transfer, using force to intentionally cause internal displacement.

In the event of the above, disproportionate civilian deaths then also constitutes serious war crime (e.g. murder).

The document would appear to indicate that their military actions were designed to displace the Palestinians.

Not sure how the document got leaked, but it is a very bad look.

[Skatastrophy]

The most damning possible example of war crimes today though wasn't directly that bombing, it was the leaked document from the Israeli Intelligence Ministry recommending to use this opportunity to forcibly resettle 2.2 million Palestinians from Gaza in the Northern Sinai and constructing a buffer zone along the Israeli border to prevent their return. 

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/90869

Israel has tried to distance itself as much as possible from the document, claiming it was a draft, because it would document the intent to commit multiple war crimes, including:

Deportation (considered a crime against humanity).
Forcible transfer, using force to intentionally cause internal displacement.

In the event of the above, disproportionate civilian deaths then also constitutes serious war crime (e.g. murder).

The document would appear to indicate that their military actions were designed to displace the Palestinians.

Not sure how the document got leaked, but it is a very bad look.

Now THAT could start a real war. Egypt absolutely does not want Hamas within their borders. They're very worried about muslim brotherhood's resurgence. I bet they'd get into a shooting war over it.

I mean, nobody wants Palestinian refugees anywhere in the region. But people REALLY don't want Hamas people.

[Pakuni]

Let's remind everyone how far this narrative has moved in six hours.

What? Nobody - including IDF - is denying that IDF hit the camp, are they?

[JWags85]

But collective punishment has a specific definition that doesn't have to do with bombing during a war. And the whole camp wasn't vaporized. That's it. Everything else I typed was trying to support my statements. I think being specific and accurate helps talk about these things that are so emotionally charged for folks.

I think, even apart from this specific instance you guys are debating, is a very important piece and distinction of this whole situation.  Cause people are throwing around super loaded words and phrases that are 1000% emotionally driven. 

Comparing this to the Holocaust for example, not only is it disgusting and reprehensible, it's not even remotely close to similar or true.

Hell, prominent people are calling this "genocide" every day.  Do they truly believe Israel intends to kill 2+ MM people?  Do they believe Israel intends to kill 10%, even 5% of those people? To do so, they would have to kill 25 (12x) the number of Gazans that have lost their lives so far, not even counting the Palestinian population in the West Bank. Hell, it's nothing compared to what ISIS has done to Yazidis in Iraq and Syria.

Israel has done some horrible things and been overly aggressive in some of their military tactics, but that sort of label is preposterous when you look at it compared to actual recognized and defined genocides of the last 50 years.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

What? Nobody - including IDF - is denying that IDF hit the camp, are they?

Yeah needle on the story hasn't moved since that post, I'm a little confused by what changed. (DC desired narrative?)

[Heisenberg]

Yeah needle on the story hasn't moved since that post, I'm a little confused by what changed. (DC desired narrative?)

It was not indiscriminate

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

I think, even apart from this specific instance you guys are debating, is a very important piece and distinction of this whole situation.  Cause people are throwing around super loaded words and phrases that are 1000% emotionally driven. 

Comparing this to the Holocaust for example, not only is it disgusting and reprehensible, it's not even remotely close to similar or true.

Hell, prominent people are calling this "genocide" every day.  Do they truly believe Israel intends to kill 2+ MM people?  Do they believe Israel intends to kill 10%, even 5% of those people? To do so, they would have to kill 25 (12x) the number of Gazans that have lost their lives so far, not even counting the Palestinian population in the West Bank. Hell, it's nothing compared to what ISIS has done to Yazidis in Iraq and Syria.

Israel has done some horrible things and been overly aggressive in some of their military tactics, but that sort of label is preposterous when you look at it compared to actual recognized and defined genocides of the last 50 years.

While I myself should adhere to your advice on loaded terms, (and for that Skatastrophy I apologize for being heated) let's also recognize here that Genocide isn't simply just killing everyone. It's violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

If you believed Palestine is a nation (like a majority of the world according to official statehood recognition) or culture, the leaked document cited above falls under that umbrella as well as some others insistence that Palestine/Palestinians don't exist officially. 


If you believe in any sort of Palestinian Autonomy, is forcing the entire nation into another region entirely not just that too?

[forgetful]

It was not indiscriminate

What about bombing the exact areas you told civilians to move to?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

[JWags85]

While I myself should adhere to your advice on loaded terms, (and for that Skatastrophy I apologize for being heated) let's also recognize here that Genocide isn't simply just killing everyone. It's violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

If you believed Palestine is a nation (like a majority of the world according to official statehood recognition) or culture, the leaked document cited above falls under that umbrella as well as some others insistence that Palestine/Palestinians don't exist officially. 


If you believe in any sort of Palestinian Autonomy, is forcing the entire nation into another region entirely not just that too?

While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign.  I don't think a military bombing campaign on a variety of targets is genocidal.  Its not as if the IDF ground campaign is making its way through Gazan cities and towns strafing hundreds of civilians at every stop.

I think its been such a long time since there was a major war that got full scale international coverage, especially in the social media age, that people have this misguided thought of what war is or entails.  If the IDF was truly genocidal in its goals and intents, the civilian death count would be massively higher already.

Same with people calling it "ethnic cleansing" ignoring the racial and ethnic diversity of Israel.

[MuggsyB]

While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign.  I don't think a military bombing campaign on a variety of targets is genocidal.  Its not as if the IDF ground campaign is making its way through Gazan cities and towns strafing hundreds of civilians at every stop.

I think its been such a long time since there was a major war that got full scale international coverage, especially in the social media age, that people have this misguided thought of what war is or entails.  If the IDF was truly genocidal in its goals and intents, the civilian death count would be massively higher already.

Same with people calling it "ethnic cleansing" ignoring the racial and ethnic diversity of Israel.

If Israel wanted to be genocidal they could be genocidal.  It's that simple.

[forgetful]

While I think there is a faction of the far right in Israel that would like to completely push the Palestinians out of Gaza/West Bank, I don't think that is actually the intent of this counterattack nor the aim of the IDF in this current campaign.

Curious what do you think of the leaked document then from Israeli Intelligence?

And for the record, I agree with you on the overuse of very loaded and historically significant terms.

[JWags85]

Curious what do you think of the leaked document then from Israeli Intelligence?

And for the record, I agree with you on the overuse of very loaded and historically significant terms.

It didn't come from official Israeli Intelligence (Mossad) or anyone high ranking in IDF.  It is a policy proposal from the Ministry of Intelligence (which isn't historically known for having any great influence) which is currently headed by a far right Likud politician.

No different than an overly aggressive or policy proposal in the US that goes nowhere.  I think its probably more an attempt to use the current crisis for political gain and motives than any realistic IDF plan of attack

[forgetful]

It didn't come from official Israeli Intelligence (Mossad) or anyone high ranking in IDF.  It is a policy proposal from the Ministry of Intelligence (which isn't historically known for having any great influence) which is currently headed by a far right Likud politician.

No different than an overly aggressive or policy proposal in the US that goes nowhere.  I think its probably more an attempt to use the current crisis for political gain and motives than any realistic IDF plan of attack

I was not that aware of the degree of influence of the Ministry of Intelligence.

From what I had read quickly, was that they oversee Mossad, and the descriptions suggested a more significant role in the decision making process than they apparently play.

It being a political ploy though makes sense as to why such a sensitive and possibly dangerous document was leaked though.

I appreciate the response and your insight.

[Heisenberg]

A viral video by an Israeli citizen explains their point of view.

Done two weeks ago, this unknown YouTuber's video now has over 4.1 million views.

It is a good place to start if you want to get the Israeli perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNf40sBcvKk

Note, when he starts talking about "religion" and "values" at the end, he is 100% correct that this makes secular progressive Westerns very uncomfortable. And it is precisely that these subjects are so taboo to Western progressives that we get the tortured logic and the conceit that the secular Western progressive worldview is the only correct one, as seen in many of the posts immediately above this one.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Curious what do you think of the leaked document then from Israeli Intelligence?

And for the record, I agree with you on the overuse of very loaded and historically significant terms.

But is that far right faction not also the ones calling a lot of these shots?

Notable extreme anti-Arab National Security Minister Ben-Gvir had a mural of Baruch Goldstein in his house up until he made political moves for the 2020 election. In an interview, to an Arab-Israeli reporter named Mohammad Magadli, and said, "Sorry Mohammad, my right to life precedes yours, that is the reality."

Netanyahu has a whole novel of shenanigans but I do recall showing trump fake videos of the Palestinian president calling for the death of children in 2017. His entire political career has been spent undermining any peaceful creation of a Palestinian state.

The Israeli minister of finance and governor of the West Bank (Bezalel Smotrich) has credible allegations of attempting to blow up cars on a highway using nearly 200 gallons of gasoline in 2005. Not to mention aggressively anti LGBTQ in all regards.

I mean, I could go on but for the sake of TLDR; to wave it away and say that it's just a faction seems a bit too much like downplaying its influence.

And yes the government is not totally representative of its people. We all know this. But they have far more influence in decision making here than public consensus.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

TLDR our rhetoric and actions are overly influenced by societal outliers

[forgetful]

TLDR our rhetoric and actions are overly influenced by societal outliers

We agree. And I think others including JWags (sorry if I'm wrong, but I think you posted things along these lines) are very critical of the far-right Israeli politicians.

Extremists and Nationalists making decisions is never a good thing. And for a long time, extremists on both sides have been calling the shots.