Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Galway Eagle]

It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.

Lmao who knew Muggsy had the answer to literally every conflict out there. Just hit the key targets and they won't fight back.

[Pakuni]

It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war.

Someone has read too many Tom Clancy novels.

Again, why not let Israel fight their own war here? Thanks to us, they have one of the best equipped and trained militaries in the world, and by far the best in the Middle East. Why should we do this for them?
Also, what are my views?

[JWags85]

Less than 45% of the vote, 17 years ago.

Mixed voting, 132 seats needed for victory, they received 74...a majority.  And they've been allowed to run rampant over Fateh and the political landscape for the better part of 2 decades.  If you think an election, thats been pushed off for 2 decades,would lead to Hamas' dismissal, that's your opinion, but recent polling doesn't seem to support that.

Right. Anyone who things we are going to cause regime change in Iran is kidding themselves.

I think the only ones to force a regime change in Iran is an Israel/SA alliance, hence why Iran is trying to do whatever they can to destroy those relations

[The Sultan]

Take put their entire leadership and oil refineries, YES.  That's my opinion. 

It would not require anything remotely like a conventional war. 

Oh good lord....

[SoCalEagle]

Regarding Muggsy, at some point when a poster contributes nothing but drivel to a conversation shouldn't we not allow him/her to post in the thread? 

Others who are posting thoughtful and well-reasoned information.  Thank you.  I have to read through a lot of junk, but I am learning something from you. 

[The Sultan]

I think the only ones to force a regime change in Iran is an Israel/SA alliance, hence why Iran is trying to do whatever they can to destroy those relations

Or an internal revolution.

[Uncle Rico]

Regarding Muggsy, at some point when a poster contributes nothing but drivel to a conversation shouldn't we not allow him/her to post in the thread? 

Others who are posting thoughtful and well-reasoned information.  Thank you.  I have to read through a lot of junk, but I am learning something from you.

The idea we can just take out the Iranian leadership ignores all of the following:

1. Cost
2. Cost of innocent human lives and American lives
3. Vacuum creating what exactly?  How has it worked in Afghanistan and Iraq?
4. International relations beyond the Middle East.  Do we have a coalition onboard?  Are we doing this unilaterally?
5. Why stop at Iran?  Why not Russia and China? 

[JWags85]

Or an internal revolution.

I think it needs to be a combination of the two factors, honestly.  Given the recent revolution/uprising that resulted in nothing grand and a government stable enough to pull the stunts they did this weekend, I worry internal won't be enough.

And like Rico said without an internal counterforce, regime change from external forces creates a problematic vacuum.

[The Sultan]

The idea we can just take out the Iranian leadership ignores all of the following:

1. Cost
2. Cost of innocent human lives and American lives
3. Vacuum creating what exactly?  How has it worked in Afghanistan and Iraq?
4. International relations beyond the Middle East.  Do we have a coalition onboard?  Are we doing this unilaterally?
5. Why stop at Iran?  Why not Russia and China? 

Yeah, one doesn't have to look very deep into history to see why this is a terrible idea.  And Afghanistan and Iraq would look like walks in the park compared to Iran.  Iran's military is probably one of the top 20 in the world - probably on par with Israel right now.

[Uncle Rico]

Yeah, one doesn't have to look very deep into history to see why this is a terrible idea.  And Afghanistan and Iraq would look like walks in the park compared to Iran.  Iran's military is probably one of the top 20 in the world - probably on par with Israel right now.

And if we're wiping out Iranian leadership because they support Hamas and Hezbollah and their terroristic organizations, why stop there?  Not worried about Saudi's supporting terrorist organizations?  Take them out, too

[MU82]

The transformation of Bibi as PM has been very disappointing, IMO.  I had a lot of respect for him both in his first term and early in his recent tenure during his second and third terms.  He is an incredibly intelligent man, in both education and real world, non political experience.  He did fantastic things for the Israeli economy, was progressing in social matters, and had sensible opinions on a way forward with Palestinian interests.  He was always hard line on terrorism and Israeli military might, but from an understandable place given his background.  But he and his government have shifted so far over the last half decade or so that its been both disappointing and politically foolish/arrogant from a normally savvy political operator.  Has he been influenced and pushed by Hamas and what they've done in the occupied territories over the last decade?  Without a doubt.  But for a formerly respected and experienced international statesman like him, he should be/know better

I couldn't have said this better myself. Bibi has become dangerous - including to his own people. My brother went from being a huge proponent of Bibi's to wishing Bibi would just go away. The only thing I'll add to your excellent summary is that Bibi also has been influenced by American leaders, one in particular. It's not quite a Giuliani-esque fall from grace, though, because Bibi still has real power.

[lawdog77]

I couldn't have said this better myself. Bibi has become dangerous - including to his own people. My brother went from being a huge proponent of Bibi's to wishing Bibi would just go away. The only thing I'll add to your excellent summary is that Bibi also has been influenced by American leaders, one in particular. It's not quite a Giuliani-esque fall from grace, though, because Bibi still has real power.

I would argue Trump was influenced by Bibi more than the other way around.

[MUBurrow]

I think it needs to be a combination of the two factors, honestly.  Given the recent revolution/uprising that resulted in nothing grand and a government stable enough to pull the stunts they did this weekend, I worry internal won't be enough.

And like Rico said without an internal counterforce, regime change from external forces creates a problematic vacuum.

I agree with most of this.  But ironically I also think the Iranian people have a larger appetite for democratization and even Westernization than perhaps any other middle eastern country.  Every time they begin to agitate, the theocratic establishment's form of death rattle is to stir up international controversy, knowing the West will take the bait, and in turn credentialize the status quo.  This is why the US perception that international affairs is tantamount to dick measuring triggers me so much.  It takes a deft hand to navigate that, but there isn't a political incentive domestically to do anything but "look tough."

[Uncle Rico]

I would argue Trump was influenced by Bibi more than the other way around.

I agree with this.  Appealing to his vainglory accomplishes a lot for those attempting dilplomacy.  Netanyahu is many things.  Dumb isn't one of them and he plays the game as well as anyone

[Pakuni]

Or an internal revolution.

That would be ideal, but also has plenty of pitfalls. One look at Syria shows how that can go sideways and lead to an even worse situation.

[MU82]

I would argue Trump was influenced by Bibi more than the other way around.

I agree with this.  Appealing to his vainglory accomplishes a lot for those attempting dilplomacy.  Netanyahu is many things.  Dumb isn't one of them and he plays the game as well as anyone

Fair.

Regarding Muggsy, at some point when a poster contributes nothing but drivel to a conversation shouldn't we not allow him/her to post in the thread? 

Others who are posting thoughtful and well-reasoned information.  Thank you.  I have to read through a lot of junk, but I am learning something from you.

Put him on ignore or skip past when you see his name. Better than canceling a poster IMHO.

[dgies9156]

Folks, you all forget something.

Nothing short of the elimination of Israel as a state and slaughter of every Jew in the country will please Hamas and their masters in Teheran. Ditto for Hezbollah and their masters, probably in Damascas. Neither Israel itself nor the United States will allow the only free market, democratic country in the Middle East to fall.

There's a reason Dimona exists. Israel's survival in a hostile world is it!

We will not allow Israel to fall, period.

No amount of extreme rhetoric on either side of the U.S. political spectrum will change our relationship with Israel. Harry Truman made the U.S. the first country to recognize Israel. Lyndon Johnson made sure the Israelis had what they needed to beat back belligerants in the Six Day War. Richard Nixon created an oil crisis by resupplying Israel in 1973. And on and on and on. People mistake family quarrels for something more than they are. They're not. Our country will protect Israel as if it was our own territory. That won't change.

[Uncle Rico]

Folks, you all forget something.

Nothing short of the elimination of Israel as a state and slaughter of every Jew in the country will please Hamas and their masters in Teheran. Ditto for Hezbollah and their masters, probably in Damascas. Neither Israel itself nor the United States will allow the only free market, democratic country in the Middle East to fall.

There's a reason Dimona exists. Israel's survival in a hostile world is it!

We will not allow Israel to fall, period.

No amount of extreme rhetoric on either side of the U.S. political spectrum will change our relationship with Israel. Harry Truman made the U.S. the first country to recognize Israel. Lyndon Johnson made sure the Israelis had what they needed to beat back belligerants in the Six Day War. Richard Nixon created an oil crisis by resupplying Israel in 1973. And on and on and on. People mistake family quarrels for something more than they are. They're not. Our country will protect Israel as if it was our own territory. That won't change.

Of course.  The voting bloc is too important not to

[SoCalEagle]

Fair.

Put him on ignore or skip past when you see his name. Better than canceling a poster IMHO.

As long as he knows his antics aren't welcome in this thread that's probably enough for me.

Not looking to cancel anyone.  You want to be a dip sh!!t in the NM thread, go for it.  Leave threads like this for the grown ups. 

[tower912]

Free speech.  He is free to be wrong.  You are free to call him on it and judge him for it.

[dgies9156]

Of course.  The voting bloc is too important not to

Brother Rico, you really believe this?

The Jewish population is heavily concentrated in Illinois, New York, New Jersey, California and Florida. There are significant but not overwhelming Jewish populations in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Maryland as well. The belief that somehow the Jewish population is a swing voting block is nestled in the quaint notion that any of these states with significant Jewish populations are in play. Almost none -- not even Florida -- are likely in play.

A long time ago, when Republicans had more than a snowball's chance in hell of capturing New York and Illinois, I might have agreed with you. But not now.

Even if every Jewish person in each state either stayed home or voted Republican (Democratic in Florida and the belief is they already vote Democratic in our state), the only states where the Jewish vote would have a material impact on a presidential election would, possibly, be Pennsylvania. Even there, the Jewish population is but 3.3 percent of the state's population. Nationally, the 2022 census estimate found 7.4 million Jews, or 2.2 percent of the total population. Also, this assumes Jews vote as a block and I don't think they go to synagogue to be told how to vote!

Finally, if you folks are going to go all Scoop on me, here's my source:  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-in-the-united-states-by-state.

The United States supports Israel because we support Democracies around the world and because Israel has stood with us in fighting terrorism. Israel has been a strong ally of the United States and that's not likely to change.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Brother Rico, you really believe this?

The Jewish population is heavily concentrated in Illinois, New York, New Jersey, California and Florida. There are significant but not overwhelming Jewish populations in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Maryland as well. The belief that somehow the Jewish population is a swing voting block is nestled in the quaint notion that any of these states with significant Jewish populations are in play. Almost none -- not even Florida -- are likely in play.

A long time ago, when Republicans had more than a snowball's chance in hell of capturing New York and Illinois, I might have agreed with you. But not now.

Even if every Jewish person in each state either stayed home or voted Republican (Democratic in Florida and the belief is they already vote Democratic in our state), the only states where the Jewish vote would have a material impact on a presidential election would, possibly, be Pennsylvania. Even there, the Jewish population is but 3.3 percent of the state's population. Nationally, the 2022 census estimate found 7.4 million Jews, or 2.2 percent of the total population. Also, this assumes Jews vote as a block and I don't think they go to synagogue to be told how to vote!

Finally, if you folks are going to go all Scoop on me, here's my source:  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-in-the-united-states-by-state.

The United States supports Israel because we support Democracies around the world and because Israel has stood with us in fighting terrorism. Israel has been a strong ally of the United States and that's not likely to change.

The voting bloc Rico is referring to is not just the Jewish population.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

I believe it is noted dental philosopher 4ever who said something about electing the same people over and over.

Relevant.

[Lennys Tap]

Iran's military is probably one of the top 20 in the world

Number 34 per Pomeroy.

[Heisenberg]

Number 34 per Pomeroy.

They had a weak SoS ... not sure how they stack up against a Power 5.