Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Since you know what that fact was, please share it with the class.

You claimed you never called anyone a Jew Hater (incorrect fact). Hards provided evidence that you did (fact).

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Let me ask some of you a few questions:

1)  Does Iran want to acquire nuclear weapons? 

A)  Yes
B)  Yes
C)  Yes
D)  Yes
E) They just want to be friends with everyone and create chocolate rivers for the world. 

2)  If Iran has Nuclear capabilities will they try to wipe Israel off the face of the earth?

A) Yes
B) Yes
C) Yes
D) Yes
E) Yes

OR

F) They just want nukes for craps and grins?

You have a very disturbing and poor understanding of the purpose of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are defensive in nature. They exist to ensure that their owners can't be directly attacked by other nations. There is a reason that a nation with a nuclear weapon has never been directly attacked by another nation. There is no situation (other than another nation using nuclear weapons offensively) where use of nuclear weapons as an offensive tactic is acceptable.

If Iran obtained nuclear weapons, they would not use them to obliterate Israel (or anyone else). To do so would be suicide and their leadership is very invested in their own survival.

That being said, we of course do not want Iran to obtain them and I am fine with reasonable interventions to delay or prevent them from obtaining them. Invasion of Iran does not fall under "reasonable".

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Yeah, Orban just needs to shut up.

Not to quibble because it's easy to mix them up.

Orban is the Hungarian dictator who thinks Russia is great.
Erdogan is the Turkish President who does as Sultan correctly stated, whatever he thinks works best for him internally.

[MuggsyB]

You have a very disturbing and poor understanding of the purpose of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are defensive in nature. They exist to ensure that their owners can't be directly attacked by other nations. There is a reason that a nation with a nuclear weapon has never been directly attacked by another nation. There is no situation (other than another nation using nuclear weapons offensively) where use of nuclear weapons as an offensive tactic is acceptable.

If Iran obtained nuclear weapons, they would not use them to obliterate Israel (or anyone else). To do so would be suicide and their leadership is very invested in their own survival.

That being said, we of course do not want Iran to obtain them and I am fine with reasonable interventions to delay or prevent them from obtaining them. Invasion of Iran does not fall under "reasonable".

So you don't want Iran to get a nuclear weapon?  That's a positive.  Do the Mullahs "understand the purpose" of a nuclear weapon?  You do realize Islamic extremists/terrorists have committed suicidd in the process of killing others?    Being "reasonable" or negotiating with Iram seems to be a losing proposition. 

[MU82]

So you don't want Iran to get a nuclear weapon?  That's a positive.  Do the Mullahs "understand the purpose" of a nuclear weapon?  You do realize Islamic extremists/terrorists have committed suicidd in the process of killing others?    Being "reasonable" or negotiating with Iram seems to be a losing proposition.

Absolutely! Let's nuke 'em!!! And when the fallout from the nukes covers other areas of the very small region that is the Middle East, including some or all of Israel, you can scream: "Biden gave Israel cancer!"

[Pakuni]

Not to quibble because it's easy to mix them up.

Orban is the Hungarian dictator who thinks Russia is great.
Erdogan is the Turkish President who does as Sultan correctly stated, whatever he thinks works best for him internally.

Former President Trump appeared to confuse the leaders of Hungary and Turkey during a campaign speech Monday evening in Derry, N.H.
"I was very honored — there's a man, Viktor Orbán, anybody ever hear of him? He's probably like, one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world," he said. "He's the leader of Turkey."

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4272099-trump-confuses-leaders-of-hungary-turkey/

[Uncle Rico]

Former President Trump appeared to confuse the leaders of Hungary and Turkey during a campaign speech Monday evening in Derry, N.H.
"I was very honored — there's a man, Viktor Orbán, anybody ever hear of him? He's probably like, one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world," he said. "He's the leader of Turkey."

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4272099-trump-confuses-leaders-of-hungary-turkey/

Buffoon, aina?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

October 24, 2023
Elite Universities Face Donor Revolt Over Mideast Conflict
Some wealthy alums say response to Hamas attacks was final straw after years of growing disenchantment
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/elite-universities-face-donor-revolt-over-mideast-conflict-6c93662f

On Monday, a group of prominent alumni including Mitt Romney and investors Seth Klarman and Bill Helman published an open letter to Harvard criticizing the school's leadership in what they described as an increasingly hostile environment for Harvard's Jewish students. The group outlined steps it said the school should take, such as restricting campus protests to enrolled students and creating and making mandatory a semester-long class on critical thinking and fact-finding. "We fear that history is on the verge of repeating itself," the letter said.

Whoever helped them come up with these two demands is savvy. They understand that universities really can do nothing about students and employees choosing to engage in unwanted/embarrassing/hateful/etc protected speech, so they offer two steps that are (theoretically) within the university's power to enact...though one may be impossible to enforce.

Private institutions don't have to honor first amendment rights. It's why Rocky can call a poster a douche canoe and then ban said poster for a week. Rocky's site. Rocky's rules. Private universities fall in this category as well, however, the vast majority of private universities have self-imposed first amendment rights on themselves for decades. In most cases, this takes the form of a university policy, guaranteeing that the university will honor the first amendment rights of their students and employees. If a university were to violate this policy, it becomes a matter of contract law rather than civil rights law. As in, the student agrees to pay tuition to the university in exchange for the university providing the student an education and both parties agree to various terms and conditions of that arrangement. A private university violating a student or employee's free speech would then be considered a violation of that contract.

The reason this demand is savvy is because most likely (depending on the policy), the university has no obligation to honor the free speech of non students and non employees because they do not have a contract with these individuals. That  most likely gives private universities the right to ban or remove non-students/employees from their grounds for engaging in speech that the university doesn't approve of.

The problem I would see comes in the enforcement of said policy. How do you ensure that non-students/employees don't come to a university protest? You can't prove a negative, so they only methods I can think of involve requiring attendees to present some sort of identification proving that they are student/employee. Requiring protesters to identify themselves to a university official, or most likely a campus cop, in order to participate in a protest would likely be ruled as a violation of those students'/employees' contractually guaranteed first amendment rights and the university would rightly get smacked for it.

So these donors are demanding a policy that is likely within the university's right to enact but outside of their ability to enforce.

As for the required class on critical thinking/fact finding. Assuming that's what they are actually requesting, I'm all for it. Marquette requires (or at least the did when I attended) all students to take a logic course and I personally believe that was the most valuable course I took at Marquette. I would honestly be surprised if Harvard didn't already have something like that. My suspicion is that ?critical thinking/fact finding" is code for something else, what, I'm not sure. Though I find the idea of conservative donors demanding the additional of a mandatory liberal arts course to be amusing. Usually that side of the donor spectrum is doing everything in their power to get rid of required liberal arts courses.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So you don't want Iran to get a nuclear weapon?  That's a positive.  Do the Mullahs "understand the purpose" of a nuclear weapon?  You do realize Islamic extremists/terrorists have committed suicidd in the process of killing others?    Being "reasonable" or negotiating with Iram seems to be a losing proposition.

Muggsy, find me one example of a suicide bomber who was a high level government official and as a result of their bombing, killed 9x more of their own citizens (including the highest levels of their own leadership) than citizens of the country they were trying to harm (Iran has approximately 9x the people that Isreael does).

Iran's leadership backs groups that utilize suicide bombers. Iran's leadership is not made up of suicide bombers. They are not going to kill themselves and the 90 million people living in their country in exchange for the chance to kill 10 million people in Israel. The fact that you believe this is a possibility illustrates that your response is emotional, not logical.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Not to quibble because it's easy to mix them up.

Orban is the Hungarian dictator who thinks Russia is great.
Erdogan is the Turkish President who does as Sultan correctly stated, whatever he thinks works best for him internally.

Fake news! Witch hunt. Ninety-One Flavors told me so with his very strong brain.

[Hards Alumni]

George Soros is Jewish, but you couldn't tell by his actions, hey?

That's a big yikes, man.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Buffoon, aina?

Buffon?

[lawdog77]

The surrounding Arab nations are more likely to wipe Palestine off the map. Hamas is destabilizing the region and their governments are weak as it is with their own active terrorist groups which are supported by Hamas.

Really hard to pick loosely coordinated extremists out of a crowd of regular folks. Hard to beat them in a war.

Turkey is a big supporter of the Hamas regime, gives them aid, and Hamas has offices in Turkey. People dismissing Erdogan's comments is a load of crap.

Here's an interesting article on his possible reasons
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/20/erdogan-turkey-hamas-ties-israel-war-normalization/

[Uncle Rico]

That's a big yikes, man.

He doesn't do what 4elder believes Jewish people should do.  Sounds familiar, aina?  Feels anti-semitic, imo

[Hards Alumni]

True.  I care because it suggests people aren't paying attention to reality.

Your reality is of your own construction. 

[Hards Alumni]

How about this? He said Israel deserved it.  Does this get you to "Yet?"
(Isreal called on him to resign)

---

"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."

You don't understand nuance, do you.  Oh, nevermind, of course you don't.

[Pakuni]

Turkey is a big supporter of the Hamas regime, gives them aid, and Hamas has offices in Turkey. People dismissing Erdogan's comments is a load of crap.

Here's an interesting article on his possible reasons
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/20/erdogan-turkey-hamas-ties-israel-war-normalization/

Who dismissed Erdogan's comments?

[Hards Alumni]

You mean the Arab nations like Jordan, Egypt and the UAE that have signed peace/normalization treaties with Israel?  And Saudi Arabia who was considering doing the same thing just weeks ago? 

Y'all are acting like its still the 1960s and 70s. It isn't. Iran (which not Arab BTW) has been fighting with Saudi Arabia for dominance in the region is trying to break apart a potential alliance with Israel.  There is NO coincidence that this occurred just after rumors of such an agreement started percolating.

This will not become a broader war with other Arab nations. They want nothing to do with this except use words - which could always change if Israel overreacts by the way. This is about Israel fighting with Iranian backed Sunni (Hamas) and Shia (Hezbollah) clients.  They will never publicly say this, but Saudi Arabia would like nothing more than Israel winning this, and weakening Iran in the process.

Stop falling for old and simple narratives. The situation in the mideast has evolved quite a bit. Try to keep up OK?

Bingo.  Also, the existence of Israel isn't under an existential threat as long as it still has all the nukes it claims to not have.  This is exactly why no one actually messes with Israel.  They use proxies like Hamas, Hezbollah, et al. 

[Hards Alumni]

Yeah, Orban just needs to shut up.

That'd be Hungary?  Unless you're trying to be funny.  I dunno.

Erdogan is who you're thinking of.

edit: I see this has been covered.

[lawdog77]

Who dismissed Erdogan's comments?

I read yours, Sultan's comments to mean, he is only saying these things to keep him as President, as opposed to the view that he actually hates Israel and is actively supporting Hamas in their crusade to eliminate Israel

[Pakuni]

I read yours, Sultan's comments to mean, he is only saying these things to keep him as President, as opposed to the view that he actually hates Israel and is actively supporting Hamas in their crusade to eliminate Israel

My comments merely suggested his remarks reflect the mood of his constituents, and in particular his base.
Erdogan may be happy to play footsie with Hamas, but in no way does he want a wider conflict, and certainly not a direct conflict with Israel. His government has lobbied Hamas to release hostages, and warned Iran about doing anything to increase tensions.

Are you arguing that Erdogan wants to eliminate Israel? How does that jibe with recent efforts by his government, including a face-to-face with Yapid last year and other formal steps to establish formal diiplomatic ties since?

[lawdog77]

My comments merely suggested his remarks reflect the mood of his constituents, and in particular his base.
Erdogan may be happy to play footsie with Hamas, but in no way does he want a wider conflict, and certainly not a direct conflict with Israel. His government has lobbied Hamas to release hostages, and warned Iran about doing anything to increase tensions.

Are you arguing that Erdogan wants to eliminate Israel? How does that jibe with recent efforts by his government, including a face-to-face with Yapid last year and other formal steps to establish formal diiplomatic ties since?

I am saying he has chosen the side of Hamas, he is giving them aid and refuge. He is allowing public rallies (which are banned in Turkey) against the US and Israel. He has basically stopped all chances for diplomancy with Israel by backing Hamas. It's not some local political angle.

He hates Israel.  When the State Department has to issue a press release on a foreign leaders comments, you know its bad

https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/

[The Sultan]

My comments merely suggested his remarks reflect the mood of his constituents, and in particular his base.
Erdogan may be happy to play footsie with Hamas, but in no way does he want a wider conflict, and certainly not a direct conflict with Israel. His government has lobbied Hamas to release hostages, and warned Iran about doing anything to increase tensions.

Are you arguing that Erdogan wants to eliminate Israel? How does that jibe with recent efforts by his government, including a face-to-face with Yapid last year and other formal steps to establish formal diiplomatic ties since?

I am saying he has chosen the side of Hamas, he is giving them aid and refuge. He is allowing public rallies (which are banned in Turkey) against the US and Israel. He has basically stopped all chances for diplomancy with Israel by backing Hamas. It's not some local political angle.

He hates Israel.  When the State Department has to issue a press release on a foreign leaders comments, you know its bad

https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/

I think all of these things may be accurate.

[Pakuni]

I am saying he has chosen the side of Hamas, he is giving them aid and refuge. He is allowing public rallies (which are banned in Turkey) against the US and Israel. He has basically stopped all chances for diplomancy with Israel by backing Hamas. It's not some local political angle.

He hates Israel.  When the State Department has to issue a press release on a foreign leaders comments, you know its bad

https://www.state.gov/turkish-president-erdogans-anti-semitic-remarks/

So, back to your post  and my question.
How are Erdogan's remarks leading to escalation, especially in light of steps his government has taken to discourage escalation?
If Erodgan's goal is the elimination is Israel, why did he meet with Yapid and host Herzog last year, meet with Netanyahu earlier this year, and invite Netanyahu to Turkey this summer (a visit the latter backed out of)? Are these the actions of someone trying to eliminate Israel?
Seems you're far more concerned with what Erdogan says than what he does.

Look, Erdogan is a bad guy. But he's not a slightly more westernized version of Iran's mullahs. He's not looking to escalate the situation nor does he wants some widespread conflict aimed at ending Israel.

[Hards Alumni]

Erdogan is only interested in one thing.  Himself.

He is a populist.