Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Heisenberg]

Once again you have managed to be wrong. About your own country nonetheless.

If an immigrant, either documented or non-documented, or even a visiting foreign national, is arrested for allegedly committing a crime at either the state or federal level, they are afforded due process of law and other protections as outlined in the US Constitution.

Of course you are introducing two different items in here in an attempt to make your point, but they of course aren't apples to apples.  What AOC was talking about was detention of migrants.  Migrants are detained at the border yes, but that's until they are processed and either released or denied entry - that's not a criminal proceeding.  They aren't arrested. They can actually apply for "voluntary departure" at anytime and leave the country.

And Guantanamo Bay is about a category of terrorist suspects labelled "enemy combatants." In fact the reason they are held at Gitmo is because if those same people were on US soil, they would be subject to due process.  Other terrorist suspects, such as those involved in the 1993 World Center bombing, were tried in US Courts and afforded due process the entire time.  Most, if not all, were not American citizens

Honestly your statement is so absurdly wrong its laughable.  Oh and the idea that Israel is held to a different standard is also laughable - do you somehow think that the situation at Gitmo is without controversy?

They did not commit these crimes in Israel. They committed them in the Judea and Samaria (or the West Bank).

This is a unique area on the planet. It is about the only place with no government. It used to be part of Jordan, but they have reannounced it. The Palestinians claim it, but it has never been part of a place called Palestine (because no place called Palestine has ever existed). Israel currently occupies it as part of taking it in the 1967 war but does not claim it as part of Israel.

So, these are unique crimes. They are crimes committed against Israelis by non-Israelis in an area that is not a country that has no rights, courts, or due process.

These criminals are not afforded the rights and due process of Israelis. Again, you may not like it, but what Israel is doing is what every country does in similar circumstances. But Israel is held to a different standard.

[The Sultan]

They did not commit these crimes in Israel. They committed them in the Judea and Samaria (or the West Bank).

This is a unique area on the planet. It is about the only place with no government. It used to be part of Jordan, but they have reannounced it. The Palestinians claim it, but it has never been part of a place called Palestine (because no place called Palestine has ever existed). Israel currently occupies it as part of taking it in the 1967 war but does not claim it as part of Israel.

So, these are unique crimes. They are crimes committed against Israelis by non-Israelis in an area that is not a country that has no rights, courts, or due process.

They are not afforded the rights and due process of Israelis. Again, you may not like it, but what Israel is doing is what every country does in similar circumstances. But Israel is held to a different standard.

You can't claim that this is both both "a unique area on the planet" with "unique crimes," while also claiming that Israel "is doing what every other country does in similar circumstances."  I mean, YOU were the one that brought up two examples from the United States to prove your point - even though they were completely inapplicable to the point you were trying to make.

That is a logical failure that is completely obvious to everyone with a modicum of intelligence - which is probably why you can't see it.

[forgetful]

You can't claim that this is both both "a unique area on the planet" with "unique crimes," while also claiming that Israel "is doing what every other country does in similar circumstances."  I mean, YOU were the one that brought up two examples from the United States to prove your point - even though they were completely inapplicable to the point you were trying to make.

That is a logical failure that is completely obvious to everyone with a modicum of intelligence - which is probably why you can't see it.

I'm glad I have him on ignore, his ramblings are increasingly more illogical.

It does bring up something that I really do not understand though.

It is a fact, that in the West Bank Palestinians and Israeli Settlers have completely separate rights, and fall under completely separate legal jurisdictions, where the settlers are governed by Israeli courts, and the Palestinians military courts where due process is not required (over a 99% conviction rate). These distinctly separate legal systems are what has led many humanitarian organizations, and former Israeli officials (including a former head of Mossad) to claim that Israel is practicing a form of apartheid.

Those that are ok with this, indicate it is because the West Bank is an occupied territory and is unique, as H2O claims.

Many of these same people consider calling Israel an Occupier, anti-semitic.

How is it both wrong to call Israel an occupier, but ok to justify the legal system on the basis that it is an occupied territory? I have truly never understood this conundrum.

[Heisenberg]

I'm glad I have him on ignore, his ramblings are increasingly more illogical.

It does bring up something that I really do not understand though.

It is a fact, that in the West Bank Palestinians and Israeli Settlers have completely separate rights, and fall under completely separate legal jurisdictions, where the settlers are governed by Israeli courts, and the Palestinians military courts where due process is not required (over a 99% conviction rate). These distinctly separate legal systems are what has led many humanitarian organizations, and former Israeli officials (including a former head of Mossad) to claim that Israel is practicing a form of apartheid.

Those that are ok with this, indicate it is because the West Bank is an occupied territory and is unique, as H2O claims.

Many of these same people consider calling Israel an Occupier, anti-semitic.

How is it both wrong to call Israel an occupier, but ok to justify the legal system on the basis that it is an occupied territory? I have truly never understood this conundrum.

It is true that the west bank is divided up into three areas, which was done via the Olso II accords that the PLO, and Yassir Arafat, agreed to in 1995.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_II_Accord



So, the claim that Israel is practicing a form of apartheid suggesting that Israel forced this separation on Judea and Samaria is false. This is how the place was divided and agreed to by both sides.

This is just more inaccurate anti-zionism by a rabid anti-zionist.

[Heisenberg]

Current position of the United States

Nov. 18, 2019
In Shift, U.S. Says Israeli Settlements in West Bank Do Not Violate International Law
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/18/world/middleeast/trump-israel-west-bank-settlements.html

[Uncle Rico]

  kinda like all that horse hockey 'bout global blah blah and jan 6 mostly peaceful riots then eyn'a?

8 out of 10

[Heisenberg]

More on the Jewish Space Lasers ...

If successful, this could represent a true game-changer in fighting a war (as I noted in an earlier post, Iron Dome inceptors cost $40k to $60k each. If this works, it lowers the cost of shooting down a rocket to around $3 each).

MTG is a true forward thinker!

---

Lasers used to burn through Hamas rockets by Israel is 'future of warfare'
Israel could soon be regularly using a new technology known as 'Iron Beam' in attempts to shore up its defenses against Hamas rocket attacks.

https://www.themirror.com/news/us-news/lasers-used-burn-through-hamas-204899

A key part of modern military defense systems could be set to change dramatically soon after reports Israel successfully deployed a laser to prevent a Hamas rocket.

If correct, the deployment of the so-called 'Iron Beam' is likely to be a world first in a war scenario as nations around the world look to improve their systems of defense against incoming artillery like rockets and shells. The success of the technology is likely to have an impact on a number of modern militaries, according to one expert.

The technology was really intended to be rolled out in 2025, but the use of it may have been implemented quicker than planned due to the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war. Security expert Dr Rod Thornton of the Defence Studies Department at King's College London told the Mirror that the Iron Beam is "complicated," but the likely future of modern defense.

[Uncle Rico]

More on the Jewish Space Lasers ...

If successful, this could represent a true game-changer in fighting a war (as I noted in an earlier post, Iron Dome inceptors cost $40k to $60k each. If this works, it lowers the cost of shooting down a rocket to around $3 each).

MTG is a true forward thinker!

---

Lasers used to burn through Hamas rockets by Israel is 'future of warfare'
Israel could soon be regularly using a new technology known as 'Iron Beam' in attempts to shore up its defenses against Hamas rocket attacks.

https://www.themirror.com/news/us-news/lasers-used-burn-through-hamas-204899

A key part of modern military defense systems could be set to change dramatically soon after reports Israel successfully deployed a laser to prevent a Hamas rocket.

If correct, the deployment of the so-called 'Iron Beam' is likely to be a world first in a war scenario as nations around the world look to improve their systems of defense against incoming artillery like rockets and shells. The success of the technology is likely to have an impact on a number of modern militaries, according to one expert.

The technology was really intended to be rolled out in 2025, but the use of it may have been implemented quicker than planned due to the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war. Security expert Dr Rod Thornton of the Defence Studies Department at King's College London told the Mirror that the Iron Beam is "complicated," but the likely future of modern defense.

Glad they aren't using them anymore to start fires in California. 

[JWags85]

Good stuff wags

Do you believe Israel should be held to a higher standard compared to Hamas?

Not to be wishy washy, but it depends.  Yes I think they should strive to be better and handle themselves in a more humane and modern way.  But at the same time, I don't like when that argument is meant to limit/hamstring them in response to a terrorist group that abides by no standards and fights dirty in every way.

Expecting Israel being better as a sovereign democratic nation is totally fair.  But when they do something that isn't a neat and tidy elimination of a Hamas leader or something that, unfortunately, is the very ugly part of war, that argument is made (often calling them the oppressor, colonizers, etc...) by people who no real answer on how Hamas should actually be taken care of, which is weak. 

"Well of course I don't support Hamas, but Israel is a brutal colonizer, they should be better"

"Ok, how should they rid Hamas who won't stop unless they are eliminated or fully crippled?"

"Idk, by not committing genocide!"

Like some of the stuff I was discussing with forgetful, I think your question is a fair and nuanced discussion...as long as its handled in good faith and not just cover for other nonsense.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Awful.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html

[Jockey]

Not to be wishy washy, but it depends.  Yes I think they should strive to be better and handle themselves in a more humane and modern way.  But at the same time, I don't like when that argument is meant to limit/hamstring them in response to a terrorist group that abides by no standards and fights dirty in every way.

Expecting Israel being better as a sovereign democratic nation is totally fair.  But when they do something that isn't a neat and tidy elimination of a Hamas leader or something that, unfortunately, is the very ugly part of way, that argument is made (often calling them the oppressor, colonizers, etc...) by people who no real answer on how Hamas should actually be taken care of, which is weak. 

"Well of course I don't support Hamas, but Israel is a brutal colonizer, they should be better"

"Ok, how should they rid Hamas who won't stop unless they are eliminated or fully crippled?"

"Idk, by not committing genocide!"

Like some of the stuff I was discussing with forgetful, I think your question is a fair and nuanced discussion...as long as its handled in good faith and not just cover for other nonsense.

I appreciate the posts by you and forgetful in this thread. I've tried to post as little as possible here because I don't want to feed people like Heisy.

I tend to agree with your comments most of the time - certainly more than Forgetful - but appreciate the attempts by both to keep the discussion on an intellectual level.

The huge difference is that you, Forgetful, and some others acknowledge that you don't have all the answers. None of us do, including both political leaders and military leaders across the globe. That is why people like Heisy and Muggsy stand out as such simpleminded folk by claiming they have the answers for everything.

[Skatastrophy]

Awful.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html

Hate crimes vs terrorism (not aimed at you, I was just curious of the difference given the topics on the last page or two of this thread)

https://www.start.umd.edu/publication/close-cousins-or-distance-relatives-relationship-between-terrorism-and-hate-crime
> Terrorism is often an "upward crime," involving a perpetrator of lower social standing than the targeted group. By contrast, hate crimes are disproportionately "downward crimes," usually entailing perpetrators belonging to the majority or powerful group in society and minority group victims. The latter difference implies that hate crimes and terrorism are more akin to distant relatives than close cousins.

[forgetful]

I appreciate the posts by you and forgetful in this thread. I've tried to post as little as possible here because I don't want to feed people like Heisy.

I tend to agree with your comments most of the time - certainly more than Forgetful - but appreciate the attempts by both to keep the discussion on an intellectual level.

The huge difference is that you, Forgetful, and some others acknowledge that you don't have all the answers. None of us do, including both political leaders and military leaders across the globe. That is why people like Heisy and Muggsy stand out as such simpleminded folk by claiming they have the answers for everything.

I actually think that if JWags and I discussed all this over a couple beers/wine instead of a message board, we would find that we pretty much agree on all the main issues.

And in all honesty, I think I generally agree more with JWags' posts in this thread than my own.

That in part is because early on, many of my posts were driven by two factors: 1) To present a counter narrative to some of the insanity from Muggsy, H20, and the dentists, that drove my posts further away from where my center really is. 2) Serious fear that this could blow up really big, and then hoping that Israel would show far more restraint than what might be reasonable. This was in part, because I have colleagues that were called up, and loved ones of friends who are boots on the ground over there.

[lawdog77]

I actually think that if JWags and I discussed all this over a couple beers/wine instead of a message board, we would find that we pretty much agree on all the main issues.

And in all honesty, I think I generally agree more with JWags' posts in this thread than my own.

That in part is because early on, many of my posts were driven by two factors: 1) To present a counter narrative to some of the insanity from Muggsy, H20, and the dentists, that drove my posts further away from where my center really is. 2) Serious fear that this could blow up really big, and then hoping that Israel would show far more restraint than what might be reasonable. This was in part, because I have colleagues that were called up, and loved ones of friends who are boots on the ground over there.

I think most of us are on this page as well. Sometimes the words being used by protestors do more harm than good, just ad "defund the police", "gun control" and others tend to alienate some in the middle,so does "from the river to the sea".

[Skatastrophy]

I think most of us are on this page as well. Sometimes the words being used by protestors do more harm than good, just ad "defund the police", "gun control" and others tend to alienate some in the middle,so does "from the river to the sea".

Disagree. Defunding the police and gun control are both moderate concepts.

River to the sea is a genocidal concept.

[Jockey]

I actually think that if JWags and I discussed all this over a couple beers/wine instead of a message board, we would find that we pretty much agree on all the main issues.

And in all honesty, I think I generally agree more with JWags' posts in this thread than my own.

That in part is because early on, many of my posts were driven by two factors: 1) To present a counter narrative to some of the insanity from Muggsy, H20, and the dentists, that drove my posts further away from where my center really is. 2) Serious fear that this could blow up really big, and then hoping that Israel would show far more restraint than what might be reasonable. This was in part, because I have colleagues that were called up, and loved ones of friends who are boots on the ground over there.

Thanks, Forgetful.

I just wanted to highlight intelligent conversation, which is sometimes kinda scarce on Scoop.

[4everwarriors]

https://youtu.be/kNj2K0_4nvI?si=RnDj-mSMHmXSa0_X


#NeverAgain

[MU82]

Awful.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html

Horrible. Shameful. Why aren't more outraged by this?

Had these victims been Jewish, we know that a few Scoopers would have declared their outrage - and for good reason. But all lives are supposed to matter, right?

This kind of attack is what happens when hate rules, and when all of one group (Palestinians/Arabs) are constantly lumped in with the very worst of that group (Hamas).

[Heisenberg]

Even though Hamas is not the government of the West Bank, they are executing Palestinians suspected of being Israeli collaborators.

Note that the tweet below shows Hamas hanging their dead bodies in public as a warning to anyone else who wants to collaborate with the Israelis.

-----

https://twitter.com/marionawfal/status/1728437770396283037

In Tulkarm, Hamas executed two Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel, leading to the elimination of Hamas members in the area

The incident occurred in the West Bank, not Gaza

The absence of Palestinian Authority intervention is questioned

Meanwhile, in Rafah, the prime ministers of Spain and Belgium criticized Israel's actions but remained silent on Palestinian brutality, which is often documented on cell phones

The perceived hypocrisy is highlighted in their selective focus on the conflict.

----

Again, the West Bank is unique. It is the most populated place on the planet that is not part of an official country, and currently, no recognized country claims it (Even Kashmir, often cited as somewhat similar, is claimed by both India and Pakistan, two recognized countries, and they are fighting over it).

The last to claim the West Bank was Jordan until they lost it in the 1967 War. Jordan has subsequently renounced it.  Before the Jordanians, it was part of British Mandate Palestine. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman Empire for about 700 years. Again, since 1967, it has yet to be claimed by any formal Government.

The Palestinians say they would like to claim it, but they rejected an offer for 100% of it in 1948 (and went to war with Israel to try and get the entire "river to the sea'). In 2000, the PLO was offered 92% of the West Bank, but Arafat rejected it, and the second Intifada began three months later.

So, it is a lawless place under various forms of military rule. And now, this action by Hamas suggests that the recognized Palestinian leadership of the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority, under the leadership of 88-year-old Matumud Abbas (who has canceled all elections since 2008), is not in control.

So, the question for all those who want a two-state solution is: who do the Israelis negotiate with for such a deal?

[Heisenberg]

Awful.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/26/us/palestinian-students-shot-burlington-vermont/index.html

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7bqq3/jason-eaton-vermont-shooting

Everything We Know About the Man Accused of Shooting 3 Palestinian Students in Vermont

The victims have been identified as Hisham Awartani, a student from Brown University, Kinnan Abdalhamid, a Haverford College student, and Tahseen Ahmad, a Trinity College student. All three—20-year-old men—had spent Thanksgiving with Awartani's uncle in Burlington. Eaton lives in an apartment building across from where the shooting took place.

Police say that Eaton purchased the .380 pistol that he allegedly used in the shooting a few months ago.

Two of the victims are in stable condition while the third is being treated for more serious injuries.

[jesmu84]

https://apnews.com/article/pope-francis-israel-hostages-palestinian-prisoners-deal-cffb5f90396c4f410b6af8cd954df0dd

[Heisenberg]

Irregular meals, benches as beds. As freed hostages return to Israel, details of captivity emerge
Details about the conditions of the released hostages' captivity in Gaza are emerging through stories their family members are telling

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/irregular-meals-benches-beds-hostages-return-israel-details-105168150

Plastic chairs as beds. Meals of bread and rice. Hours spent waiting for the bathroom. As former hostages return to Israel after seven weeks of Hamas captivity, information about the conditions of their confinement has emerged.

The 58 hostages freed under a cease-fire deal over the past three days have largely stayed out of the public eye, with most still in hospitals.

Merav Raviv, whose three relatives were released by Hamas on Friday, said they had been fed irregularly and had eaten mainly rice and bread. She said her cousin and aunt, Keren and Ruth Munder, had each lost around 7 kilograms (15 pounds) in just 50 days.

[jesmu84]

https://youtu.be/voXlir19xpA?si=2REw1-ZRbKyqUPxC

Any Palestinians who celebrate release of detainees will be treated as terrorists? Wow

[Heisenberg]

https://x.com/HeidiBachram/status/1729240549755130174?s=20

The tweet shows a video of terrified Israeli children in the truck, not knowing where they are going, on a street packed with Gazans harassing and mocking them as they are headed to their release.

[Heisenberg]

https://x.com/HenMazzig/status/1729502305702044150?s=20

During the ceasefire, Hamas has:

1. Fired rockets at Israeli civilians.
2. Detonated three bombs targeting IDF troops.
3. Opened fire on Israeli soldiers.
4. Violated the conditions of the hostage-for-prisoners deal by refusing to release mothers and their children together.
5. Denied the Red Cross permission to visit the hostages or provide them with medication.
6. Refused to release the youngest baby from captivity.
7. Held over 170 innocent civilians in captivity, subjecting them to minimal food and torture.

Remember, this is what Hamas considers a ceasefire.

---

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-no-longer-has-youngest-israeli-hostage-kfir-bibas-f8od4ay3

Hamas reportedly no longer has its youngest hostages, including 10-month-old baby Kfir Bibas.

According to the IDF, Kfir and his 4-year-old brother Ariel have allegedly been taken to Khan Younis under the control of a separate Palestinian militant group – the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

Israeli media reports that the southern Gaza city could be the next target of the IDF, giving rise to fears that hostages are being taken there to pressure Israel to extend the terms of the ceasefire.

There was speculation that Kfir and Ariel would be part of the latest release of hostages, as the tense ceasefire between Israel and Hamas holds for another day.

---

CNN cited an Israeli official as saying there were "a number" of problems with Monday's lists—one being that they did not contain any mothers. Under the terms of the deal, Hamas agreed that mothers would not be separated from their children, a condition that has been broken multiple times by the terror group.