Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[JWags85]

As far as I understand, both UN and USA have, in the past, stated Hamas reporting of casualties is generally pretty accurate

Like 500 dead in the hospital "attack" in which the hospital suffered no significant structural damage?

[Hards Alumni]

Was this from Ghazi Hamad?  IDF has noted 3-4 key Hamas leaders that were eliminated in strikes, which Hamas or other sources never refuted, so only 10 other Hamas soldiers were killed?  I find that IMMENSELY hard to believe, regardless of source, unless the source is doing the "unofficial soldiers" of Hamas that are only soldiers until they are killed and then become civilians.

Thats still a concerning and thoroughly depressing amount of civilians, regardless of what the actual reporting is.  Just sobering and horrible.

LOL.  Did you even read?  Its from Hamas, their healthy ministry....


Speaking of horrible, take of this what you will, but this is a statement made before anything was done to or near the hospital.  If true, it would surprise absolutely nobody but Hamas apologists...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-hamas-terror-groups-main-operations-base-is-under-shifa-hospital-in-gaza-city/

I understand, but can Israel or the US refute the claims?  Do the bodies need to be laid out in the streets for a proper count?  Say it was half that amount, does it matter to most people?  The ministry released ages, genders and ID numbers.  Now, of course Hamas lies, but we should believe what?  Israel?  Who has no way of counting?  Should we believe the pictures of dead people?  Of entire neighborhoods flattened in Gaza?  Should we ignore the widespread reporting that Israel still bombs the South, where the civilians were told to go to 'be safe'?

As for the hospital claims, boy that would be awful convenient for Israel to claim... you know, since they routinely blow hospitals up.  What better cover than to say, "Well that's where their bases are!  We have intelligence!".  Yet, there is no proof.  There is no occupying force giving us pictures of these claims.  We are supposed to take Israel at their word (despite their extreme propensity to lie to the world), but if Hamas counts bodies... HELL NAW! 

You see the problem here, right?

[Hards Alumni]

Like 500 dead in the hospital "attack" in which the hospital suffered no significant structural damage?

The implication here is that the hospital treatment wasn't overflowing into the parking lot because of the number of people with injuries?

[JWags85]

I understand, but can Israel or the US refute the claims?  Do the bodies need to be laid out in the streets for a proper count?  Say it was half that amount, does it matter to most people?  The ministry released ages, genders and ID numbers.  Now, of course Hamas lies, but we should believe what?  Israel?  Who has no way of counting?  Should we believe the pictures of dead people?  Of entire neighborhoods flattened in Gaza?  Should we ignore the widespread reporting that Israel still bombs the South, where the civilians were told to go to 'be safe'?

As for the hospital claims, boy that would be awful convenient for Israel to claim... you know, since they routinely blow hospitals up.  What better cover than to say, "Well that's where their bases are!  We have intelligence!".  Yet, there is no proof.  There is no occupying force giving us pictures of these claims.  We are supposed to take Israel at their word (despite their extreme propensity to lie to the world), but if Hamas counts bodies... HELL NAW! 

You see the problem here, right?

Lawdog and I weren't objecting to casualty counts, or at least I wasnt, just the "only 13 Hamas soldiers" killed.  I don't find the casualty counts to be artificial, hence why I said it was horrible and sobering.  I find the reporting of minimal Hamas casualties, aka the IDF is horrible and incompetent and is just massacring civilians without any actual mission success, to be laughable.

As for Shifa Hospital, I literally said "take of this what you will" and noted that it was a statement made publicly in a press conference without any actions being taken on the site, as opposed to it being leveled and then saying it. 

But also, please don't tell me you think the idea/reports of Hamas/similar orgs putting HQs or weapons or personnel in civilian locations like hospitals or schools is just baseless IDF propaganda.

[Hards Alumni]

Lawdog and I weren't objecting to casualty counts, or at least I wasnt, just the "only 13 Hamas soldiers" killed.  I don't find the casualty counts to be artificial, hence why I said it was horrible and sobering.  I find the reporting of minimal Hamas casualties, aka the IDF is horrible and incompetent and is just massacring civilians without any actual mission success, to be laughable.

As for Shifa Hospital, I literally said "take of this what you will" and noted that it was a statement made publicly in a press conference without any actions being taken on the site, as opposed to it being leveled and then saying it. 

But also, please don't tell me you think the idea/reports of Hamas/similar orgs putting HQs or weapons or personnel in civilian locations like hospitals or schools is just baseless IDF propaganda.

I also think the 13 Hamas soldiers killed to be far fetched.

I don't know what to think regarding the claims that bases are under civilian structures, but I'd love proof instead of claims.  The IDF has a history of making a claim and pushing that narrative until months or years later when it is finally proven that they just lied for the propaganda at the time.  I just have a hard time believing what either side is saying.  They're both very untrustworthy.

I will say, that only one side seems to ever get the benefit of the doubt... especially in the Western media.

[SoCalEagle]

In general, I would be hesitant to believe anything in media during a war. Part of war is winning the image battle, which means all sides will flood the media with propaganda.

Not saying any of the above is wrong. Just cautioning trusting anything implicitly during wartime.

Forgetful, you are so right.  Many narratives to be told, but which ones are accurate?  This is a time when we will be called upon to be fair with each other and think things through.  Can we do it?  I'm not hopeful, but we shall see. 

[4everwarriors]

I understand, but can Israel or the US refute the claims?  Do the bodies need to be laid out in the streets for a proper count?  Say it was half that amount, does it matter to most people?  The ministry released ages, genders and ID numbers.  Now, of course Hamas lies, but we should believe what?  Israel?  Who has no way of counting?  Should we believe the pictures of dead people?  Of entire neighborhoods flattened in Gaza?  Should we ignore the widespread reporting that Israel still bombs the South, where the civilians were told to go to 'be safe'?

As for the hospital claims, boy that would be awful convenient for Israel to claim... you know, since they routinely blow hospitals up.  What better cover than to say, "Well that's where their bases are!  We have intelligence!".  Yet, there is no proof.  There is no occupying force giving us pictures of these claims.  We are supposed to take Israel at their word (despite their extreme propensity to lie to the world), but if Hamas counts bodies... HELL NAW! 

You see the problem here, right?

Ah sure, I see da problem. More mushy, stinky brain matter, hey?

[Hards Alumni]

Ah sure, I see da problem. More mushy, stinky brain matter, hey?

Did you stick a q-tip too far in your ear again?

[MU82]

45 years ago today (from the AP) ...

Oct. 27, 1978: Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin were named winners of the Nobel Peace Prize for their progress toward achieving a Middle East accord.

[4everwarriors]

Which about 3 years later got Sadat assassinated. So then there's that, aina? 

[Uncle Rico]

Which about 3 years later got Sadat assassinated. So then there's that, aina?

Netanyahu got Rabin assassinated

[jesmu84]

Like 500 dead in the hospital "attack" in which the hospital suffered no significant structural damage?

Does that one anecdote invalidate all previous confirmed statistics?

[lawdog77]

Does that one anecdote invalidate all previous confirmed statistics?

It calls into question the 13 soldiers, at least.  Don't take that as pro-war, just that don't trust either side in a war to give you the accurate number of soldiers/civilians killed.

[jesmu84]

It calls into question the 13 soldiers, at least.  Don't take that as pro-war, just that don't trust either side in a war to give you the accurate number of soldiers/civilians killed.

Does it call into question all past numbers reported by Hamas that UN and US intelligence has deemed reasonable?

[lawdog77]

Does it call into question all past numbers reported by Hamas that UN and US intelligence has deemed reasonable?

I am talking about the 13 soldiers. President Biden doesnt believe Hamas' numbers.

[JWags85]

Does it call into question all past numbers reported by Hamas that UN and US intelligence has deemed reasonable?

No. But I'm referring to what they've been spreading in "wartime" when the entire world is watching, not random skirmishes or response attacks.

I also think the 13 Hamas soldiers killed to be far fetched.

I don't know what to think regarding the claims that bases are under civilian structures, but I'd love proof instead of claims.  The IDF has a history of making a claim and pushing that narrative until months or years later when it is finally proven that they just lied for the propaganda at the time.  I just have a hard time believing what either side is saying.  They're both very untrustworthy.

I will say, that only one side seems to ever get the benefit of the doubt... especially in the Western media.

The UN has found evidence of weapons and Hamas activity in schools and hospitals. Multiple times, including in a UN sponsored Gaza school.  I'm pretty sure Hamas actually admitted it a few years ago and said "it was an accident."

NATO published a study on Hamas/PIJ and their human shield usage, including hospitals/schools/churches about a decade, collected from variety of intelligence sources and banks of evidence.

Maybe one that gets the Western media benefit in this cause is cause it's a sovereign nation and not a terrorist organization?

Again, this isn't Israel vs the Palestinian people and media coverage.  It's Israel vs Hamas.  Both sides have done terrible things but one side has done tons of great and admirable things in the global sphere and has a thriving population...the other is a terrorist organization that happily subjugates a vulnerable, deprived group of people for the benefit of their goals

[Hards Alumni]

No. But I'm referring to what they've been spreading in "wartime" when the entire world is watching, not random skirmishes or response attacks.

The UN has found evidence of weapons and Hamas activity in schools and hospitals. Multiple times, including in a UN sponsored Gaza school.  I'm pretty sure Hamas actually admitted it a few years ago and said "it was an accident."

NATO published a study on Hamas/PIJ and their human shield usage, including hospitals/schools/churches about a decade, collected from variety of intelligence sources and banks of evidence.

Maybe one that gets the Western media benefit in this cause is cause it's a sovereign nation and not a terrorist organization?

Again, this isn't Israel vs the Palestinian people and media coverage.  It's Israel vs Hamas.  Both sides have done terrible things but one side has done tons of great and admirable things in the global sphere and has a thriving population...the other is a terrorist organization that happily subjugates a vulnerable, deprived group of people for the benefit of their goals

I don't dispute that Hamas uses human shields, nor do I dispute that their network includes various civilian infrastructure for their headquarters.  I just want there to be some sort of proof that they exist and that it is worth dropping bombs and artillery on civilian infrastructure to potentially eliminate underground bases when you and I both know that the people that suffer will be the Palestinian civilians.  There has to be an easier way to reach and eliminate underground Hamas bases than dropping ordinance on the heads of civilians in churches, hospitals, and schools.

The point is both sides lie to the media constantly.  Neither should be believed.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

No. But I'm referring to what they've been spreading in "wartime" when the entire world is watching, not random skirmishes or response attacks.

The UN has found evidence of weapons and Hamas activity in schools and hospitals. Multiple times, including in a UN sponsored Gaza school.  I'm pretty sure Hamas actually admitted it a few years ago and said "it was an accident."

NATO published a study on Hamas/PIJ and their human shield usage, including hospitals/schools/churches about a decade, collected from variety of intelligence sources and banks of evidence.

Maybe one that gets the Western media benefit in this cause is cause it's a sovereign nation and not a terrorist organization?

Again, this isn't Israel vs the Palestinian people and media coverage.  It's Israel vs Hamas.  Both sides have done terrible things but one side has done tons of great and admirable things in the global sphere and has a thriving population...the other is a terrorist organization that happily subjugates a vulnerable, deprived group of people for the benefit of their goals

What bugs me about the Human shields argument is that even though it has been widely know to happen, that doesn't change the fact that noncombatants are still protected members in the laws of war. The war crime justification to commit another war crime makes it feel like that side is more than willing to sink to the level of the terrorist group that is being denounced. Does that not also suggest they are committing terrorism as well?

I am not calling the IDF terrorists, but it gets more difficult with each passing day not to see the behavioral similarities.

It goes back to the justification of collective punishment. We have decided that we are ok with it I suppose (Or at least our admin has, despite public sentiment).

[Heisenberg]

I don't dispute that Hamas uses human shields, nor do I dispute that their network includes various civilian infrastructure for their headquarters.  I just want there to be some sort of proof that they exist and that it is worth dropping bombs and artillery on civilian infrastructure to potentially eliminate underground bases when you and I both know that the people that suffer will be the Palestinian civilians.  There has to be an easier way to reach and eliminate underground Hamas bases than dropping ordinance on the heads of civilians in churches, hospitals, and schools.

The point is both sides lie to the media constantly.  Neither should be believed.

It is not the Israelis' job to provide the refugees comfort and shelter. It is the job of the Government of Gaza ... which would be Hamas.

The use of human shields is a war crime ... Geneva Convention Article 28
Hamas does this, not Isreal
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28

Geneva Convention Article 29 - If is the job of Hamas to move "protect persons" from a war zone. Not Isreal.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-29

When the ground war starts (now?), a lot of civilians will die. All of them will be the responsibility of Hamas, and Hamas will be committing war against them, not Israel.  When the ground war starts, mistakes will be made. Friendly fire casualty, errand ordinances, and plan bad intel. Think "fog of war."

These mistakes will result in the death of civilians, including women and children. These are not war crimes.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

It's not the IDF putting these civilians in harm's way but Hamas. They hide behind these poor unfortunates because they know we care about human life but they do not. They refuse to let some escape to a safer zone for propaganda knowing some will blame Israel for the casualties while firing from behind these helpless shields.

[Heisenberg]

What bugs me about the Human shields argument is that even though it has been widely know to happen, that doesn't change the fact that noncombatants are still protected members in the laws of war. The war crime justification to commit another war crime makes it feel like that side is more than willing to sink to the level of the terrorist group that is being denounced. Does that not also suggest they are committing terrorism as well?

I am not calling the IDF terrorists, but it gets more difficult with each passing day not to see the behavioral similarities.

It goes back to the justification of collective punishment. We have decided that we are ok with it I suppose (Or at least our admin has, despite public sentiment).

There is no moral equivalence.

Any outrage you have should be directed at Hamas for starting this and not doing enough to protect their citizens.

All Gazan deaths are the fault of Hamas.

[Hards Alumni]

It is not the Israelis' job to provide the refugees comfort and shelter. It is the job of the Government of Gaza ... which would be Hamas.

The use of human shields is a war crime ... Geneva Convention Article 28
Hamas does this, not Isreal
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-28

Geneva Convention Article 29 - If is the job of Hamas to move "protect persons" from a war zone. Not Isreal.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-29

When the ground war starts (now?), a lot of civilians will die. All of them will be the responsibility of Hamas, and Hamas will be committing war against them, not Israel.  When the ground war starts, mistakes will be made. Friendly fire casualty, errand ordinances, and plan bad intel. Think "fog of war."

These mistakes will result in the death of civilians, including women and children. These are not war crimes.

"stop hitting yourself"

[Hards Alumni]

It's not the IDF putting these civilians in harm's way but Hamas. They hide behind these poor unfortunates because they know we care about human life but they do not. They refuse to let some escape to a safer zone for propaganda knowing some will blame Israel for the casualties while firing from behind these helpless shields.

Surely, you see the irony here.

[Hards Alumni]

There is no moral equivalence.

Any outrage you have should be directed at Hamas for starting this and not doing enough to protect their citizens.

All Gazan deaths are the fault of Hamas.

That's your twisted point of view, and you're welcome to it. 

[MuggsyB]

There is no moral equivalence.

Any outrage you have should be directed at Hamas for starting this and not doing enough to protect their citizens.

All Gazan deaths are the fault of Hamas.

They're concerned Heisy.  Especially because of tbe wonderful human rights record and treatment of minorities in Arab states.  It's interesting but I don't recall a single major protest at our elite colleges and universities about the Kurds or Uyghurs.  Or our trans community up in arms about how they're treated in tbe Middle East other than Israel.  But these same people are very, very, worried about the Gazan Palestinians. 

Heisy,  If I was in charge there would not be another Iranian regime attack on American airbases.  I would have a lovely conversation with the Supreme Leader as well as that piece of garbage prick who for some reason was allowed to speak in our country at the UN.  I would assure both of them we need this to stop, talk about another nuclear deal, Persian rice recipes or what have you, and blah, blah, blah.  Meanwhile some components in my 5 point plan would be at a full go.  The result would not be enjoyable for any of them or be exhilarating for that turd Cornell prof.