Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[lawdog77]

Is there a difference between disagreeing that Jews are inherently entitled to a sovereign ethno-state and wanting Jews wiped out of existence?

(To be clear, Israel today as an established, sovereign nation has a right to exist. But Israel and Zionism are not synonyms. The latter predates the former by decades).

Unfortunately, in Middle East politics, there is not much of a distinction.  And to be clear, a think Palestinians have a right to part of the land as well. I am hopefully both sides are willing to concede things in order to get a two state solution.

[Pakuni]

Unfortunately, in Middle East politics, there is not much of a distinction.  And to be clear, a think Palestinians have a right to part of the land as well. I am hopefully both sides are willing to concede things in order to get a two state solution.

Eh ... I'm not sure this is true. I don't think the average Saudi or Lebanese or Egyptian or Jordanian politician (or citizen) wants to go into New York or London or Paris and murder all the Jews. I think they'd very much be happy if Israel went away as a nation, and I don't doubt they're antisemtic, but it's a big leap to suggest there's not a distinction between that and wiping out every Jew on the planet.

[The Sultan]

Well I don't think if you are antisemitic that means that necessarily means you want to "wipe out every Jew on the planet."

[lawdog77]

Well I don't think if you are antisemitic that means that necessarily means you want to "wipe out every Jew on the planet."

Agree

[lawdog77]

Eh ... I'm not sure this is true. I don't think the average Saudi or Lebanese or Egyptian or Jordanian politician (or citizen) wants to go into New York or London or Paris and murder all the Jews. I think they'd very much be happy if Israel went away as a nation, and I don't doubt they're antisemtic, but it's a big leap to suggest there's not a distinction between that and wiping out every Jew on the planet.

They would rather have them out of the Middle East than have Israel as a sovereign nation.

[Pakuni]

Well I don't think if you are antisemitic that means that necessarily means you want to "wipe out every Jew on the planet."

Agree. That's part of the point I'm trying to make.

[lawdog77]

Eh ... I'm not sure this is true. I don't think the average Saudi or Lebanese or Egyptian or Jordanian politician (or citizen) wants to go into New York or London or Paris and murder all the Jews. I think they'd very much be happy if Israel went away as a nation, and I don't doubt they're antisemtic, but it's a big leap to suggest there's not a distinction between that and wiping out every Jew on the planet.

So good old fashioned antisemitism is OKas lo g asthey are not trying to go outside the Middle East and kill people?

[Pakuni]

So good old fashioned antisemitism is OKas lo g asthey are not trying to go outside the Middle East and kill people?

.

I'd expect this nonsense from Heisey or 4ever.

[lawdog77]

.

I'd expect this nonsense from Heisey or 4ever.

Well you did ask if there is a difference, so that is minimizing.

[Pakuni]

Well you did ask if there is a difference, so that is minimizing.

It isn't, and you know I neither wrote or intended anything of the sort.
But I'm sure you think you scored some important internet argument points, so congrats. Slap yourself five.

[lawdog77]

It isn't, and you know I neither wrote or intended anything of the sort.
But I'm sure you think you scored some important internet argument points, so congrats. Slap yourself five.

Well, you did write this:
Is there a difference between disagreeing that Jews are inherently entitled to a sovereign ethno-state and wanting Jews wiped out of existence?

I don't know you from Adam, so I read that your intent was to say that antisemitism is OK (which antizionism is inherently antisemitic), just dont wipe out the whole race.

[lawdog77]

Eh. Not sure I agree completely with that. If that article is going to rely on self-determination as a reasoning, there have been plenty of instances when the State of Israel has ignored that concept when it was politically convenient for them to do so.

Anyway Israel now certainly has a right to exist. No doubt about that.

Well the Stockholm Declaration defined a type of antisemitism as:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,. So yes, antizionism is antisemitism

[Pakuni]

Well, you did write this:
Is there a difference between disagreeing that Jews are inherently entitled to a sovereign ethno-state and wanting Jews wiped out of existence?

I don't know you from Adam, so I read that your intent was to say that antisemitism is OK (which antizionism is inherently antisemitic), just dont wipe out the whole race.

Antizionism is not inherently antisemtic just because you say and an opinion piece you found say so. I can link opinion pieces agreeing with that, if that's all it takes.

Are the Navajo and Maori entitled to sovereign ethno-states of their own? How about the Kurds? Roma? Which groups are and aren't inherently entitled?

And if you think I'd come here and say antisemitism is OK, you're a moron. But I don't think you're a moron. I think you're just being insincere to win an internet argument. Way to go, champ.

[The Sultan]

Well the Stockholm Declaration defined a type of antisemitism as:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,. So yes, antizionism is antisemitism

I disagree. Any claim that rests on "self-determination" logically falls apart pretty quickly based on Israel's own actions.

Not to mention there are "nations" all over the world that don't have a right to such self-determination. Denying them a state doesn't mean someone is against their ethnicity.

[lawdog77]

Antizionism is not inherently antisemtic just because you say and an opinion piece you found say so. I can link opinion pieces agreeing with that, if that's all it takes.

Are the Navajo and Maori entitled to sovereign ethno-states of their own? How about the Kurds? Roma? Which groups are and aren't inherently entitled?

And if you think I'd come here and say antisemitism is OK, you're a moron. But I don't think you're a moron. I think you're just being insincere to win an internet argument. Way to go, champ.

It actually is and is defined by certain Declarations as such by people a lot smarter than you and me. you either seem to believe antizionism is OK,or just like to argue. You probalbly need to get a hobby..

As far as other ethnic groups. yes they are entitled to that.

[forgetful]

Well the Stockholm Declaration defined a type of antisemitism as:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination,. So yes, antizionism is antisemitism

So Jewish people, who believe their religious texts indicate that Jews should not return en masse to Israel, until the coming of the Messiah (a believe held by almost all Orthodox Jews prior to 1947, and one held by various orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews today), are anti-semitic?

Although some groups say so, it is a bit inane (in my opinion), they have no hatred, or bias against Jews, rather, they believe, on Jewish religious grounds, that they are defying God, and want them all to essentially quit living in Sin.

Those are differences of opinion within a religion on an extremely foundational religious element, and one that was debated for decades prior to 1947. Calling them, a priori, anti-semitic is simply a way to silence their religious beliefs.

That isn't to say that people who hold those beliefs, can't be anti-semitic, but those beliefs on their own do not make them anti-semitic.

[forgetful]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-05/ty-article/.premium/israeli-far-right-plans-to-march-on-temple-mount-demand-end-of-waqf-control-of-compound

The Kahanist organizations behind this have as some of their official symbolism, images of bombs raining down on Muslim holy sites and shrines.

Actions like this are just going to cause more violence, and the groups driving it know this and want more violence. Such actions risk expanding the scope of the war.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ultranationalist-jerusalem-march-tomorrow-to-urge-expelling-muslim-waqf-from-temple-mount/

[Pakuni]

It actually is and is defined by certain Declarations as such by people a lot smarter than you and me. you either seem to believe antizionism is OK,or just like to argue. You probalbly need to get a hobby..

Lol. That's rich given your  comments here.
And your appeal to authority is no more persuasive than your opinion piece.
And yes, it's fine to say that no ethnic group has an inherent right to a sovereign nation to call their own. It doesn't mean you hate that group.

As far as other ethnic groups. yes they are entitled to that.

Hooray for war and displacement.

[Heisenberg]

So good old fashioned antisemitism is OKas lo g asthey are not trying to go outside the Middle East and kill people?

There is a lot of this "Just don't kill them all, and we cool you're not an antisemitic" around here.

Consider that the state of Israel has been ghettoizing Palestinians for almost twenty years.  They're literally behaving like the Nazi's did towards the Jewish population during WW2.

If Hamas was out to only kill Jewish people, don't you think they'd try... ya know, killing a few somewhere besides Israel?  Kinda strange that they don't, isn't it? 

They're anti-Israel, not anti-Jewish.  And yes, you can separate the two if you possess working brain cells.

And for the record, I've been to the holocaust museum as well as Dachau.  The crimes of 80 years ago don't give the state of Israel carte blanche to kill civilians as they see fit.

[MU82]

Biden just bypassed Congress to sell tank shells to Israel.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/09/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20231209&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=152188&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-state-department-bypasses-congress-to-approve-israels-order-for-tank-ammunition

The State Department invoked an emergency provision in the Arms Export Control Act, the State Department official as well as a congressional official told The New York Times. The arms shipment has been put on an expedited track, and Congress has no power to stop it.

[Heisenberg]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-09/wharton-rebels-ramp-up-pressure-to-force-penn-president-to-quit

Pressure is growing on University of Pennsylvania President Liz Magill to quit as alumni, donors and lawmakers demand a change in leadership over how she's handled antisemitism on campus, part of a broader crisis that's engulfed three of the world's most elite universities.

The Penn board plans to meet Sunday at 5pm with Magill's future on the line after days of lobbying for and against her, said two people with knowledge of the matter.

The board is currently divided and may not reach a decision this weekend, they said, asking not to be identified as the discussions are private.

[JWags85]

So Jewish people, who believe their religious texts indicate that Jews should not return en masse to Israel, until the coming of the Messiah (a believe held by almost all Orthodox Jews prior to 1947, and one held by various orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews today), are anti-semitic?

Although some groups say so, it is a bit inane (in my opinion), they have no hatred, or bias against Jews, rather, they believe, on Jewish religious grounds, that they are defying God, and want them all to essentially quit living in Sin.

Its nuance, but I think they are actually anti-semitic, but in the sense that they rebuke and "disown" all Jews who don't follow their way of thinking, if you're not with us we hate you like you're against us.  Same way lunatics like Westboro hate and despise all Christians who are not as extreme and principled as them.  Many of the ultra Jihadist Muslims would easily condemn and kill any "Westernized" Muslims who lived in a way they don't align with.

I was having a conversation with my cousin who is a reform Jew, worked for a Jewish non profit for awhile post college, and is fairly involved with Jewish social circles in Chicago.  I asked if she knew any Jews that were against Israel, in theory or practice.  I don't mean Jews who want a ceasefire or freedom for Palestine/sympathy for Palestinian cause, I mean full anti-Zionism or the idea of the state of Israel, not criticism or opposition to current government policies.  She only knew one, and it was the cousin of one of her friends, who was largely estranged from their family. 

The reason I asked was because the only people Ive seen with that mindset are completely secular Jews who, beyond religion, have no ties, connection, or meaningful cultural interest in their Jewish background.  They just use it as a cudgel to be like "see, I'm a Jew and I also think Israel is a colonizing, disgusting, apartheid state, so it can't be anti-semitic".  Despite their genetics, they have zero shared interest or commonality to the cultural or historical basis or desire for the state of Israel.

[21Jumpstreet]

Just got the email, former president Magill. Remains a tenured professor in the law school. Disappointed and expected.

[Heisenberg]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-09/wharton-rebels-ramp-up-pressure-to-force-penn-president-to-quit

Pressure is growing on University of Pennsylvania President Liz Magill to quit as alumni, donors and lawmakers demand a change in leadership over how she's handled antisemitism on campus, part of a broader crisis that's engulfed three of the world's most elite universities.

The Penn board plans to meet Sunday at 5pm with Magill's future on the line after days of lobbying for and against her, said two people with knowledge of the matter.

The board is currently divided and may not reach a decision this weekend, they said, asking not to be identified as the discussions are private.

Headline crossing now

*PRESIDENT LIZ MAGILL RESIGNED AS PRESIDENT: PENN BOARD

I don't think it ends here, and it might be just the beginning.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-09/governor-hochul-orders-ny-colleges-to-combat-antisemitism

New York Governor Kathy Hochul called on the state's colleges to take action against all antisemitism on campus after the presidents of Harvard University and two other elite US schools faced widespread criticism for failing to broadly condemn calls for the genocide of Jewish people.

Failure to address antisemitism "would constitute a violation of New York State Human Rights Law as well as Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964," Hochul said in a letter to New York state college presidents. She said schools that don't comply could be "deemed ineligible" to receive state and federal money.

"The moral lapses that were evidenced by the disgraceful answers to questions posed during this week's congressional hearing cannot and will not be tolerated here in the state of New York," Hochul said.

[Uncle Rico]

Grok weighs in on Zionism and Judaism:

https://x.com/benfrubinstein/status/1733602333257277611?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q