Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[Galway Eagle]

I know, stunning.  I'm coming around to muggsy's way of thinking but expanding it to a crusade-level attack that takes the Arabian Peninsula and Jerusalem, the Sinai, Syria, etc.

Time to think big and end this millenniums long struggle for these lands

Which crusade? Because the fourth arguably led to the downfall of Constantinople & the Eastern Roman Empire. Plus pretty much opened the door for the ottoman invasion.

[21Jumpstreet]

I don't think Muggs realizes that something like 20% of the Israeli population is Arab. Full citizens who can vote, serve in the military, and otherwise lead fairly normal lives.

I think this is such a good comment. I'm not piling on Muggs here, I respect his emotions as I too am an emotional being, but your comment as a whole that we just don't truly understand the area, the population, the culture, the relationships, is so astute. We like to make crap up and divide.

I'm sure I'm not alone here when I say this, but that comment about Jews and Muslims living peacefully in Israel Palestine, didn't come from me, it came from a longtime Jewish friend who I called Monday morning to ask if I could have an open and honest conversation with her. She said it, someone who knows first hand. I trust that. She is also pro-peace while also a pro single Israeli state that has been pushed over the line with the barbaric actions of Hamas. It's complicated.

[MU82]

It's complicated.

That's a cop-out. Just start bombing, baby! Doesn't matter who!!!

[Uncle Rico]

Which crusade? Because the fourth arguably led to the downfall of Constantinople & the Eastern Roman Empire. Plus pretty much opened the door for the ottoman invasion.

This one will be better and bigger.  We can even sell naming rights

[MU82]

This one will be better and bigger.  We can even sell naming rights

Brought to you by Bomb Pops, Rocket Mortgage and Jews for Jesus.

[Uncle Rico]

Brought to you by Bomb Pops, Rocket Mortgage and Jews for Jesus.

Rocket Mortgage is a given.  They'll sponsor anything. 

[Galway Eagle]

This one will be better and bigger.  We can even sell naming rights

I'm guessing Ali baba is out as a potential sponsor 

[Uncle Rico]

I'm guessing Ali baba is out as a potential sponsor

Leave all avenues for revenue open

[21Jumpstreet]

That's a cop-out. Just start bombing, baby! Doesn't matter who!!!

Dang it, you're right! I'm now a converted barbarian!

Interestingly enough, I find your comment a good one, too. Not only do we like to make crap up, we also like to cherry pick one line of a comment and get all worked up. 😁

[Hards Alumni]

I'll read all these pages later, but both sides are wrong here.  You can't be surprised when Hamas pushes back in a violent way (though somehow Mossad and the IDF were?).  Israel maintains Gaza as an outdoor prison system.  The entire state of Israel is apartheid and treats half of it's citizens as less than and has been openly ethnically cleansing them for years.

Again, I'm not excusing Hamas' actions, but eventually push comes to shove.  And now Israel is using collective punishment to kill Palestinian citizens randomly.  The full blockade of food, water, and medicine is a war crime as is the collective punishment and open targeting of civilians.  Of course, this was also done by Hamas and is also a war crime.

I guess the crux of the problem is that if you kick and kill a group of people long enough they're going to bite back.  The irony that the Jewish state of Israel is openly ghettoizing a population within their borders isn't lost on me.

[Hards Alumni]

no excuse!  unprovoked!  disgusting! 

i just hope we have something left to help out israel with.  between Ukraine and the illegal invasions, terrorists and the cartels here, the admin is very poorly prepared for anymore conflict.

Oh God, I was going to read the rest... but I think this probably sums it up.

[MU82]

Not saying I agree or disagree, because it's so complex and I'm no expert on Middle East situations, but I did find this piece by a professor of history at Hebrew University in Jerusalem to be interesting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/11/netanyahu-populism-weakened-israeli-security/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most

After he gets through talking about his personal attachments, he goes into this:

Israelis are paying the price for years of hubris, during which our governments and many ordinary Israelis felt we were so much stronger than the Palestinians, that we could just ignore them. There is much to criticize about the way Israel has abandoned the attempt to make peace with the Palestinians and has held for decades millions of Palestinians under occupation.

But this does not justify the atrocities committed by Hamas, which in any case has never countenanced any possibility for a peace treaty with Israel and has done everything in its power to sabotage the Oslo peace process. Anyone who wants peace must condemn and impose sanctions on Hamas and demand the immediate release of all hostages and Hamas's complete disarmament.

Moreover, irrespective of how much blame one ascribes to Israel, this does not explain the dysfunction of the state. History isn't a morality tale.

The real explanation for Israel's dysfunction is populism rather than any alleged immorality. For many years, Israel has been governed by a populist strongman, Benjamin Netanyahu, who is a public-relations genius but an incompetent prime minister. He has repeatedly preferred his personal interests over the national interest and has built his career on dividing the nation against itself. He has appointed people to key positions based on loyalty more than qualifications, took credit for every success while never taking responsibility for failures, and seemed to give little importance to either telling or hearing the truth.

[Hards Alumni]

Inaccuracies in the thread

- Hamas is not the governing body of Palestine.  They have control of the Gaza Strip.  The West Bank is more of less in the control of the Palestinian Authority.

- Iran, the CIA, and Mossad all say that Iran has had no involvement in the attacks.

- 40 babies weren't decapitated, but plenty of children did die. 

- Disagreeing with Israeli policy doesn't make someone antisemitic.

- Note: The focus on the Al-Aqsa mosque by the far right Israelis was intentional. In Arab culture, the Saudi King is responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque. So the attacks/incursions on the mosque were directed attacks against Saudi Arabia.  The house of Saud is 300 years old, and has only been in power in SA for a little over a hundred years.  There were hundreds of years that the 'Saudi King' couldn't have been responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque since there have been several Islamic caliphates that weren't headed by anyone from the Saud family.  Not to mention the Ottoman Empire.  I have no idea where this information is coming from.

- Muggsy, your posts read like you are living on twitter and relying on bad sources and have a terrible grip on history.  The entirety of the US military couldn't eradicate the Taliban.  What chance does Israel have in eliminating Hamas, Hezbollah, etc?  Suggesting the destruction of Iran is nuts.  Your idea of foreign policy is that of a scared girl who has seen her first spiders next, "KILL IT WITH FIRE".  You're suggesting to meet war crimes with war crimes unilaterally.  It is utterly childish.

- The support of Israel in America is directly tied to the Evangelical movement and its voters.  Never think that the bloc actually cares about the Jewish people in Israel, they just need the final battle to happen for the rapture to occur. 

- I am dumber having read all 19 pages of this thread.

I'll leave this link here for Muggs... and maybe some others.  Very informative.  Someone might even say, "Excellent".

https://conquer-and-divide.btselem.org/map-en.html

[Pakuni]

- 40 babies weren't decapitated, but plenty of children did die. 

Not only were 40 babies decapitated, but many Harvard students think it was awesome.

[The Sultan]

- Iran, the CIA, and Mossad all say that Iran has had no involvement in the attacks.

To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.

I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.

[Hards Alumni]

To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.

I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.

Fair enough. 

[Uncle Rico]

To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.

I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.

The chances Iran wasn't involved is nil

[jesmu84]

The chances Iran wasn't involved is nil

Define involved.

Is the US involved when Israel attacks Gaza?

[Uncle Rico]

Define involved.

Is the US involved when Israel attacks Gaza?

Yes. 

[forgetful]

Inaccuracies in the thread

- Note: The focus on the Al-Aqsa mosque by the far right Israelis was intentional. In Arab culture, the Saudi King is responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque. So the attacks/incursions on the mosque were directed attacks against Saudi Arabia.  The house of Saud is 300 years old, and has only been in power in SA for a little over a hundred years.  There were hundreds of years that the 'Saudi King' couldn't have been responsible for safeguarding the Al-Aqsa mosque since there have been several Islamic caliphates that weren't headed by anyone from the Saud family.  Not to mention the Ottoman Empire.  I have no idea where this information is coming from.

I'll admit to being a little loose on the details to keep things simpler. That is my fault for not being precise. I'll be more precise in my clarification. The Saudi Arabian rulers have given themselves a title consistent with the protector of holy mosques, including the Al-Aqsa mosque (currently Jordanian rulers are the official custodians). In negotiations facilitated by the last White House, Saudi Arabia was trying to further cement this role by having permanent representation on the waqf.

Saudi Arabian rulers take this very seriously, as part of their claim to religious legitimacy. That is why the Al-Aqsa mosque was targeted by the Israeli far right. It is also why the international community condemned Israel actions, and pleaded with Israel to reign in the violent actions and rhetoric of Itamar Ben-Gvir for fear that it would cause a new uprising and jeopardize the Saudi deal. If Saudi rulers went ahead with a peace/recognition plan with Israel, at a time where far-right members within the cabinet were desecrating the mosque, they would have lose legitimacy within the Arab community.

[Hards Alumni]

I'll admit to being a little loose on the details to keep things simpler. That is my fault for not being precise. I'll be more precise in my clarification. The Saudi Arabian rulers have given themselves a title consistent with the protector of holy mosques, including the Al-Aqsa mosque (currently Jordanian rulers are the official custodians). In negotiations facilitated by the last White House, Saudi Arabia was trying to further cement this role by having permanent representation on the waqf.

Saudi Arabian rulers take this very seriously, as part of their claim to religious legitimacy. That is why the Al-Aqsa mosque was targeted by the Israeli far right. It is also why the international community condemned Israel actions, and pleaded with Israel to reign in the violent actions and rhetoric of Itamar Ben-Gvir for fear that it would cause a new uprising and jeopardize the Saudi deal. If Saudi rulers went ahead with a peace/recognition plan with Israel, at a time where far-right members within the cabinet were desecrating the mosque, they would have lose legitimacy within the Arab community.

Great clarification.

Ben-Givir should never have been allowed to have any role in the Israeli government.  He was denied service in the IDF for being so radical.  The man kept a photo of a man who shot up a mosque in the 90s.  That'd be like someone high up in the US government in charge of race relations keeping a picture of Dylann Roof in their home.  Letting Ben-Givir anywhere near any position of authority in Israel is disgusting.  But it speaks to the policy of the Likud party in Israel, and their right wing extremist beliefs.  As our former coach once said, "Character revealed".

[4everwarriors]

Good read for all the self-proclaimed Middle East scholars in Scoopdom, hey?


https://www.jns.org/the-late-great-hamas-finally-got-its-wish-and/

[rocket surgeon]

To be clear, the CIA and the US government has said they haven't seen evidence of Iranian involvement. But such involvement has been reported, but denied by Iran.

I think the jury is way out on this. It's only been a few days.

oh?  iran denies involvement??  well it depends on what is, is

john kirby is such a putz, he and kjp would make a lovely couple if not for, well, you know

[The Sultan]

oh?  iran denies involvement??  well it depends on what is, is

john kirby is such a putz, he and kjp would make a lovely couple if not for, well, you know

WTF are you even talking about? I said that CIA hasn't yet found evidence, but my guess is they will. And you follow up with this nonsense?

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Good read for all the self-proclaimed Middle East scholars in Scoopdom, hey?


https://www.jns.org/the-late-great-hamas-finally-got-its-wish-and/

An opinion column from the Sheldon Adelson paper complaining extensively about Obama, wokeism, and Harvard; written by the outspoken supporter of the Iraq war and Donald Rumsfeld who wrote a column warning his children to be careful of young black men in cities. Checks all the boxes I suppose!