Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[forgetful]

The tragic thing for the innocent Palestinian civilian population is they have no competent or pragmatic leadership advocating for them.  They have the savagery of Hamas or the impotent corruption of guys like Abbas.  It's very much like the old Narcos way of "plomo o plata", these guys only know violence or lining their pockets while "advocating" for the Palestinians.  Those can't be the only 2 choices and in that world, nothing will ever change.

I don't disagree that Bibi needs to be gone, and Gatz stepping in to fill the void won't change anything.  But there are countless intelligent savvy political operators in the Knesset that will have plenty of support and backing for true change on the heels of this conflict.

But I think this is what frustrates me about the vocal and uninformed pro-Palestine voice right now. First, it's not binary, there is no world in which there is a Palestine without Israel, full stop.  If it came to it and only 1 existed, we all know it wouldn't be Israel on the losing side. 

But secondly, any solution that ends in a positive long term outcome for the Palestinian people will not, and cannot, happen as is under the current status quo.  It's not the direct fault of the Palestinian people, but they need a party, a voice, a leader who diverges from the current leadership of Gaza/West Bank who cannot do anything but point fingers at/espouse the negatives of Israel.

Overall your post is solid, but I'm not sure that the bolded is true. Polls have shown that over the past 10-years, support for a two-state solution amongst Israeli Jews has plummeted. Currently, some polls have a 1-state solution preferred as the end of the conflict (40%-35%) amongst Israeli Jews, with 30% (almost matching those supporting a 2-state solution) saying that the 1-state solution should require privileged legal status for Jews.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians


And that was in July of 2023...data says the Israeli Jews have turned even further away from a 2-state solution since Oct. 7th.

There is a reason Bibi has continued to move further and further right, and far-right parties have continued to gain more power. Many of the Israeli people want all of the land between the Jordan River and the Sea to be part of a unified Israel (often with privileged rights for Jews over Arabs). The primary question has not been whether that is the goal, but rather how do they achieve it. I think this change in focus has several causes, one of which is Trump giving Israel much of what they ever wanted (e.g. Jerusalem capital, and acknowledging the occupied territories as part of Israel), despite continued settlements and violence.

On the other side, there is still moderately strong support amongst Palestinians for a 2-state solution, but it is declining, largely because young people, who have never known anything besides blockades, poverty, settler violence, and constant military incursions into the West Bank (despite supposed autonomy), have decided that they can never have peace as long as Israel exists. Young Palestinians overwhelmingly are against a 2-state solution. Some people argue that this is because, they have never seen an Israeli leader that actually supports their existence as a people. So they've given up.

I do not believe a solution to the problem will ever come from the politicians, a two-state solution would have to be imposed externally (e.g. UN).

[forgetful]

I'll note one other telling data point in the poll.

In 2022, only 32% of Israeli Jews would support a peace agreement if it resulted in a 2-state solution. That means 68% would actively fight against it.

71% of Israeli Arabs would support it.

The above again, is why Bibi keeps moving further right, and more far-right leaders are gaining power.

[Skatastrophy]

I'll note one other telling data point in the poll.

In 2022, only 32% of Israeli Jews would support a peace agreement if it resulted in a 2-state solution. That means 68% would actively fight against it.

71% of Israeli Arabs would support it.

The above again, is why Bibi keeps moving further right, and more far-right leaders are gaining power.

I wonder how that shifts based on the competence of Palestinian leadership. Right now a 2 state solution is not tenable with the terrorists & terrorist sympathizers in charge in Palestine.

Maybe a 1 state solution and put the Mormons in charge. It'd be nice to get them out of Idaho.

[JWags85]

I wonder how that shifts based on the competence of Palestinian leadership. Right now a 2 state solution is not tenable with the terrorists & terrorist sympathizers in charge in Palestine.

That was literally going to be my next post.  And its not whataboutism, I think it very much plays into comfort with your neighbors and giving them legitimacy and other things that come with statehood.

Its a conversation Ive had with my Israeli BIL.  He's descended from Syrian Jews, not the white Eastern Europeans so many people mistakenly think make up Israel.  His extended family in Tel Aviv have no problem with non-Israeli Arabs or Palestinians.  But they've been uneasy about a two state solution for the last 10 years specifically for the reasons listed above.  Not outright against it, but uneasy in giving legitimacy or power to those who detest Israel wholeheartedly.  It was less so in the late 90s, early 2000s.  Its not great, but I can understand some of it.

And again, its the general Palestinian people who suffer.  Cause their plight is internally in the hands of people who couldn't give a damn about them and who actively often turn their neighbors against them.

[forgetful]

I wonder how that shifts based on the competence of Palestinian leadership. Right now a 2 state solution is not tenable with the terrorists & terrorist sympathizers in charge in Palestine.

Maybe a 1 state solution and put the Mormons in charge. It'd be nice to get them out of Idaho.

Those data points were from 2022, long before Oct. 7th.

I also think it is important to consider what conditions led to Hamas having power.

[MU82]

There can't be peace, and obviously not a two-state solution, as long as Hamas or any other terrorist organization is in charge of the Palestinian people.

Can't be negotiated with or bargained with or dealt with or trusted. They want to annihilate all Jews and promote terror ... and the kicker is that they don't care about Palestinians, either.

[JWags85]

Those data points were from 2022, long before Oct. 7th.

I also think it is important to consider what conditions led to Hamas having power.

But its not like everyone in Israel was comfortable and happy with Hamas/the Abbas regime prior to October 7th, that just escalated tensions even higher.

And to the second, you mean Fatah being viewed as toothless and corrupt?  That was far more of a factor than Gaza wanting violence.  Hamas cloaked their platform as "Change and Reform" which is ironic looking back.  I do wonder if someone like Mohammed Dahlan had not been ousted and been a face of power for Fatah, then Hamas may never have taken control.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

There can't be peace, and obviously not a two-state solution, as long as Hamas or any other terrorist organization is in charge of the Palestinian people.

Can't be negotiated with or bargained with or dealt with or trusted. They want to annihilate all Jews and promote terror ... and the kicker is that they don't care about Palestinians, either.

Totally agree, it's really not an easy situation to navigate. Which is why many of us believe by just erratically and recklessly bulldozing through millions of people is just going to exacerbate their problems.

When you're searching out thousands by traumatizing and maiming the community of millions, are you not just burgeoning the momentum to their genocidal aims by giving terrorist leadership all the opportunity to say "see? They want all of you and your family dead anyway, come join the cause".

The more desperate people become the easier they are to manipulate. They're taking a for the most part unpopular group and strengthening them by more or less making them the only (short term perceivable) hope. If someone bombed and killed our entire family to get to one of my cousins who may have been involved with a group, many of us would probably say "f*** it, you're going to pay if it kills me". (We are lucky not to face situations like this)

Unless of course the goal is to continue generating retaliatory justification, which for some of the higher ups in the Israeli government, is hard not to consider at this point.

[Hards Alumni]

Totally agree, it's really not an easy situation to navigate. Which is why many of us believe by just erratically and recklessly bulldozing through millions of people is just going to exacerbate their problems.

When you're searching out thousands by traumatizing and maiming the community of millions, are you not just burgeoning the momentum to their genocidal aims by giving terrorist leadership all the opportunity to say "see? They want all of you and your family dead anyway, come join the cause".

The more desperate people become the easier they are to manipulate. They're taking a for the most part unpopular group and strengthening them by more or less making them the only (short term perceivable) hope. If someone bombed and killed our entire family to get to one of my cousins who may have been involved with a group, many of us would probably say "f*** it, you're going to pay if it kills me". (We are lucky not to face situations like this)

Unless of course the goal is to continue generating retaliatory justification, which for some of the higher ups in the Israeli government, is hard not to consider at this point.

[Pakuni]

That was literally going to be my next post.  And its not whataboutism, I think it very much plays into comfort with your neighbors and giving them legitimacy and other things that come with statehood.

Its a conversation Ive had with my Israeli BIL.  He's descended from Syrian Jews, not the white Eastern Europeans so many people mistakenly think make up Israel.  His extended family in Tel Aviv have no problem with non-Israeli Arabs or Palestinians.  But they've been uneasy about a two state solution for the last 10 years specifically for the reasons listed above.  Not outright against it, but uneasy in giving legitimacy or power to those who detest Israel wholeheartedly.  It was less so in the late 90s, early 2000s.  Its not great, but I can understand some of it.

No doubt your BIL's feelings here are understandable, but what might he say is the best hope for a resolution, if not a two-state solution?
The status quo clearly is a disaster for both sides. I can't imagine perpetual occupation would be any better, nor would Israel ever annex Gaza and the West Bank and offer its inhabitants a path to citizenship.
Every option seems fraught with peril, but I don't see any with a better chance of establishing something close to long-term stability (and even security?) for either side than a two-state setup.
But I'm open to other ideas.

[Heisenberg]

This is making it impossible to donate to Harvard or any other elite school. Give them money, and you are all but announcing you're antisemite,

Harvard Financial Pain Grows as Blavatnik Joins Donor Revolt
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-21/harvard-s-financial-strain-grows-as-blavatnik-joins-donor-revolt

The list of Harvard University's disaffected donors has added another billionaire: Len Blavatnik.

His family foundation has given at least $270 million to Harvard, but it's pausing donations in the wake of university President Claudine Gay's widely derided congressional testimony on antisemitism, according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter.

----

So ... Surprise! .... Harvard "suddenly found" another instance of plagiarism yesterday that needs to be corrected.
Is Harvard really telling Gay it is time to leave? They are losing too much money.

Harvard says President Claudine Gay is correcting another piece of her writing
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/12/20/metro/harvard-president-plagiarism/

----

By the way, if you're not a DEI protected class, like the President of the University of South Carolina Retired Army Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen, this is what happens when you bungle just one speech.

May 13, 2021
University Of South Carolina President Resigns After Plagiarizing Part Of Speech
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996523535/university-of-south-carolina-president-resigns-after-plagiarizing-commencement-s
The university's president, Robert Caslen, delivered a speech so bungled — with the wrong school name and closing remarks lifted nearly word-for-word from another famous commencement address — that it prompted widespread criticism from social media users to state legislators in South Carolina.

Now, less than a week later, Caslen has resigned.

----

If a white man, and worse, a white man that has a distinguished military career, is president of a university and butchers one speech ... the "white oppressor and colonizer" is summarily fired.

But Claudine Gay gets the full support of the DEI bureaucracy and the most elitist club in the world, the Trustees of Harvard Corporation, headed by the most elitist person in the world, Penny Pritzker (JB's sister).

The head of Penn's trustees resigned when Liz McGill was shown the door. Will Penny do the same when Gay is jettisoned?

[Heisenberg]

One for the Elon/Twitter haters

6h
@BillAckman
This is a superb platform for fixing @Harvard (and other universities that have lost their way) and restoring it to excellence.

I am working with some others on how we can accelerate necessary change at Harvard et al.

It goes far beyond replacing President Gay.

I will have more to share soon.


@SamParkerSenate·
Does "restoring it to excellence" include ending all discrimination towards White people?

@BillAckman
Yes.  It includes ending discrimination against all.

---

Does this mean the end of DEI?

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

One for the Elon/Twitter haters

6h
@BillAckman
This is a superb platform for fixing @Harvard (and other universities that have lost their way) and restoring it to excellence.

I am working with some others on how we can accelerate necessary change at Harvard et al.

It goes far beyond replacing President Gay.

I will have more to share soon.


@SamParkerSenate·
Does "restoring it to excellence" include ending all discrimination towards White people?

@BillAckman
Yes.  It includes ending discrimination against all.

---

Does this mean the end of DEI?

https://youtu.be/Y7QZgH1eP2o?si=0fZeaoibidvRIe40

[rocket surgeon]

One for the Elon/Twitter haters

6h
@BillAckman
This is a superb platform for fixing @Harvard (and other universities that have lost their way) and restoring it to excellence.

I am working with some others on how we can accelerate necessary change at Harvard et al.

It goes far beyond replacing President Gay.

I will have more to share soon.


@SamParkerSenate·
Does "restoring it to excellence" include ending all discrimination towards White people?

@BillAckman
Yes.  It includes ending discrimination against all

---

Does this mean the end of DEI?

  and hopefully restoring the true and just meaning to "ALL LIVES MATTER"

i've about had enough of the dei people trying to return us to the days of segregation.  hows about heeding what MLK shouted out in the 1960's most everyone at the time seemed to agree with.  however, the dei people need their message for a number of reasons, the biggest ones-it's where the money is and they need the continuity of the victim status,

     oh, btw, where's the money ibram?

[jesmu84]

  and hopefully restoring the true and just meaning to "ALL LIVES MATTER"

i've about had enough of the dei people trying to return us to the days of segregation.  hows about heeding what MLK shouted out in the 1960's most everyone at the time seemed to agree with.  however, the dei people need their message for a number of reasons, the biggest ones-it's where the money is and they need the continuity of the victim status,

     oh, btw, where's the money ibram?

Source?

[4everwarriors]

Now, Gay has committed over 40 known acts of plagiarism. Don't let da door hit yo ass on da way out, hey?

[The Sultan]

Yeah Heisey spit the bit a long time ago.

[The Sultan]

  and hopefully restoring the true and just meaning to "ALL LIVES MATTER"

i've about had enough of the dei people trying to return us to the days of segregation.  hows about heeding what MLK shouted out in the 1960's most everyone at the time seemed to agree with.  however, the dei people need their message for a number of reasons, the biggest ones-it's where the money is and they need the continuity of the victim status,

     oh, btw, where's the money ibram?

What "DEI people" are you talking about?

[The Sultan]

Source?

https://x.com/ryan_ken_acts/status/1720086842698297467?s=46&t=ppua9BCUAa7dWM9-SthPmg


"Everyone loves me know just like everybody loved me back then. That's why I died of natural causes at the age of 98."

[rocket surgeon]

Source?

really?  you want a source for what MLK advocated?  like i just made some chit up?  you know, the color blind society?  you need a source for that?  come on man?

[Heisenberg]

Op-Ed page of the NY Times

She should be on with her lawyer negotiating her severance.

Dec. 21, 2023, 8:48 p.m. ET
John McWhorter
Why Claudine Gay Should Go
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/opinion/harvard-claudine-gay.html

[Goose]

Rocket

I really like your last post. Gave me a good laugh.

Doc
The fact that Gay hit 40 acts of plagiarism is impressive. It is a messed up world and the Harvard mess is a strange one to me. They obviously are concerned about backlash on keeping her.

[Pakuni]

really?  you want a source for what MLK advocated?  like i just made some chit up?  you know, the color blind society?  you need a source for that?  come on man?

I suspect your knowledge of what MLK advocated starts and ends with a 20-second clip of one speech.

[rocket surgeon]

Rocket

I really like your last post. Gave me a good laugh.

Doc
The fact that Gay hit 40 acts of plagiarism is impressive. It is a messed up world and the Harvard mess is a strange one to me. They obviously are concerned about backlash on keeping her.

  low hangin fruit, high hangin beachballs and coyote ugly at closing time...

[rocket surgeon]

I suspect your knowledge of what MLK advocated starts and ends with a 20-second clip of one speech.

   whatever pakman...suspect away