Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[lawdog77]

It isn't.  Israel denies it was them, that's fine.  But they also released a LOT of misinformation immediately after the bombing.  Much of it was proven false quickly, and their story changed.  So, yes, it was lies.

The current version is what is sticking.  But I don't consider this issue resolved.  Nor should you until there is an independent investigation.

What did Israel actually release? I am not talking about some shmucks on twitter trying to get the jump. Video evidence shows the rocket comes from Gaza. An intercepted phone call between 2 Hamas soldiers state it was PIJ. But sure, Israel is lying because you have become an expert on the sounds of rockets.

[Hards Alumni]

FWIW as one of the more "pro-Israel" voices in this thread, I have no issue with this plan.  I think Gaza and West Bank existing as 2 separate nation states could be an issue, but otherwise it's reasonable. And honestly think it's a pretty palatable outcome for a modern, non Bibi/Likud minded Israel

I think they need to exist as two separate nations because they have separate needs.  Unless there is a land corridor or free movement between them, I think they need to remain separate.  Having said that, if they want to merge into a single state (after a period of time) that is their decision as nation states.

[Lennys Tap]

We haven't learned anything in the last two decades of war in the world.  I said it the last time, you can't kill an ideology with a gun.

You can, however, render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless. But I guess you've never heard of our Civil War or World War II.

The idea that Israel should respond to Hamas's brutality with a suggestion for a group hug  shows where your alliance lies.

[MuggsyB]

I think they need to exist as two separate nations because they have separate needs.  Unless there is a land corridor or free movement between them, I think they need to remain separate.  Having said that, if they want to merge into a single state (after a period of time) that is their decision as nation states.

That's not happening.  And frankly the UN would have no interest as well. 

[The Sultan]

Gaza existing as a separate country is de facto what was going on already right?  Why would this outcome be different?

Kinda think the best outcome would be to massively invest in fixing the infrastructure and finding a way to have Egypt take it back.

[Uncle Rico]

Gaza existing as a separate country is de facto what was going on already right?  Why would this outcome be different?

Kinda think the best outcome would be to massively invest in fixing the infrastructure and finding a way to have Egypt take it back.

Is there any oil there?

[Pakuni]

You can, however, render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless. But I guess you've never heard of our Civil War or World War II.

I know this is way off topic, but since you opened this door ...
No, the white supremacism behind slavery was not rendered "basically powerless" by the Civil War.
Certainly the thousands of Black Americans lynched, shot, bombed, burned and beaten to death because of their race since Reconstruction might think otherwise, not to mention the millions denied civil rights. Slavery ended, but the ideology remained powerful, and in some ways still is today. It's less so not because the Union Army killed a bunch of Confederate soldiers, but because 100 years later we started writing laws to ensure civil rights and then enforced them. Well, sometimes, anyhow.

Anyhow, while racism obviously still is a force in this country, it's less so not because the good guys won the Civil War 158 years ago, but because of the legislation and persuasion of the last 60 years.

[Hards Alumni]

You can, however, render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless. But I guess you've never heard of our Civil War or World War II.

The idea that Israel should respond to Hamas's brutality with a suggestion for a group hug  shows where your alliance lies.

That was a nice straw man you set for yourself to knock down.  I bet you are feeling pretty smart.

My comment was that ideologies can't be killed with a gun.  That is why you still see Confederate stuff all over the place in the US.  Also, I wouldn't call the Nazis dead and gone.

And again.  I have no alliance.  I don't know how many times you have to read it for you to get it through your thick skull.  But there is another for you.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

This statement from someone who has been responsible for facilitating arms transfers and provisions for over a decade is worth a read.

https://x.com/bcfinucane/status/1714780336410751214?s=46&t=G2FhP_F2kWewaBOpvRv5lg

[MU82]

From the AP:

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israel said Wednesday that it will allow Egypt to deliver limited humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. The first crack in a punishing 10-day siege on the territory came one day after a blast at a hospital killed hundreds and put immense strain on Gaza's struggling medical system.

The announcement to allow water, food and other supplies happened as fury over the blast at Gaza City's al-Ahli Hospital spread across the Middle East, and as U.S. President Joe Biden visited Israel in hopes of preventing a wider conflict in the region.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-hospital-d9606e0ead1f8c4e9fd00b602ed14a38?user_email=6647dfa7189f748384d7389910f7b584c6fcfc35ae990102964c7e826d4175c7&utm_medium=Afternoon_Wire&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=AfternoonWire_Oct18_2023&utm_term=Afternoon%20Wire

[forgetful]

NM

[Lennys Tap]

I know this is way off topic, but since you opened this door ...
No, the white supremacism behind slavery was not rendered "basically powerless" by the Civil War.
Certainly the thousands of Black Americans lynched, shot, bombed, burned and beaten to death because of their race since Reconstruction might think otherwise, not to mention the millions denied civil rights. Slavery ended, but the ideology remained powerful, and in some ways still is today. It's less so not because the Union Army killed a bunch of Confederate soldiers, but because 100 years later we started writing laws to ensure civil rights and then enforced them. Well, sometimes, anyhow.

Anyhow, while racism obviously still is a force in this country, it's less so not because the good guys won the Civil War 158 years ago, but because of the legislation and persuasion of the last 60 years.

So what you're saying is that bringing Hamas, Hezbolla and any other promoters of the Holocaust part 2 to their knees won't finish the job any more than the Civil War or WWII did re previous hateful ideologies. Okay. But like in 1861 or 1941, it's a start. And maybe, like in 1861 or 1941, a necessary one. Hoping the cancer away doesn't seem to be getting the job done.

[Lennys Tap]

That was a nice straw man you set for yourself to knock down.  I bet you are feeling pretty smart.

My comment was that ideologies can't be killed with a gun.  That is why you still see Confederate stuff all over the place in the US.  Also, I wouldn't call the Nazis dead and gone.

Straw man? Huh? You said, you can't kill an ideology with a gun. I said maybe not kill it, but pretty much render it powerless. I cited examples. Do you really think a party advocating slavery is powerful in the US today? Or a party claiming Aryans a master race bent on genocide/world domination in Germany? IOW, it's awful, but some things can ONLY be solved with a gun. Sad but true for anyone who knows history.

[Pakuni]

So what you're saying is that bringing Hamas, Hezbolla and any other promoters of the Holocaust part 2 to their knees won't finish the job any more than the Civil War or WWII did re previous hateful ideologies. Okay. But like in 1861 or 1941, it's a start. And maybe, like in 1861 or 1941, a necessary one. Hoping the cancer away doesn't seem to be getting the job done.

No, that's not close to what Im saying, Lenny. Why are you being disingenuous?
And do you actually believe "hoping the problem goes away" has been Israel's policy?

[Lennys Tap]

No, that's not close to what Im saying, Lenny. Why are you being disingenuous?
And do you actually believe "hoping the problem goes away" has been Israel's policy?

Disingenuous? How so?

I think the disingenuous one is you. Over 600,000 lost their lives in the Civil War, at least as many US citizens as in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, World War I, World War II and the Korean War combined. It made a bankrupt ideology illegal throughout the land was a first giant step in healing a nation. But because it didn't make things perfect, you (imo) diminish both its impact and those who sacrificed their lives.

Israel's policy in dealing with any enemy who wants them eliminated hasn't been effective - just as US policy dealing with slave states and worldwide policy dealing with Hitler's Germany wasn't. In all of those cases the actions of those pushing bankrupt ideologies kept leaving fewer choices for their victims or intended victims. In the end sometimes one has no choice.

[rocket surgeon]

Unfortunately, Gaza will continue to have to exist as a police state until relations with Israel improve

  step back from the bong for a few weeks and air your brain cells out man

[Hards Alumni]

Straw man? Huh? You said, you can't kill an ideology with a gun. I said maybe not kill it, but pretty much render it powerless. I cited examples. Do you really think a party advocating slavery is powerful in the US today? Or a party claiming Aryans a master race bent on genocide/world domination in Germany? IOW, it's awful, but some things can ONLY be solved with a gun. Sad but true for anyone who knows history.

You think if Hamas is fully eliminated from Gaza that there will be no power vacuum, and that something that is Hamas with another name won't come back?

The cost of the bridge is $5 million, you in?

[Pakuni]

Disingenuous? How so?

By continually misstating and distorting what I and other have written here.
I choose not believe rhat you simply can't read the English language. So the only alternative is that you're doing it intentionally.

I'm diminishing the sacrifices of Union soldiers by pointing out that the Civil War did not, in fact, end racism against Black Americans? lol.

[forgetful]

You think if Hamas is fully eliminated from Gaza that there will be no power vacuum, and that something that is Hamas with another name won't come back?

The cost of the bridge is $5 million, you in?

Not to mention, most of the weapons Hamas has made, actually uses scrap metal from previous rounds of destruction. There will be a lot of scrap metal to build new weapons after all this is over.

[lawdog77]

By continually misstating and distorting what I and other have written here.
I choose not believe rhat you simply can't read the English language. So the only alternative is that you're doing it intentionally.

I'm diminishing the sacrifices of Union soldiers by pointing out that the Civil War did not, in fact, end racism against Black Americans? lol.

The Civil War was not fought to end racism Pakuni, it was to end slavery, but I think you know that. You are the one being disingenuous.  Racism has existed in every culture from the beginning of time and continues today.

[The Sultan]

The Civil War was not fought to end racism Pakuni. You are the one being disingenuous.  Racism has existed in every culture from the beginning of time and continues today.

Sorry but Lenny's was the one who claimed that wars can "render inferior or genocidal ideologies basically powerless."  And then used the Civil War as an example.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=65076.msg1577019#msg1577019

Which is silly because it didn't render any sort of ideology powerless. It simply changed the legal status of a group of people and preserved the union.

[Uncle Rico]

Unfortunately, Gaza will continue to have to exist as a police state until relations with Israel improve

  step back from the bong for a few weeks and air your brain cells out man

3.5 out of 10

[MU82]

Just saw this quote from Moshe Dayan, the former Israeli defense minister who went on to become a major advocate for peace, helping to negotiate the 1978 Israel-Egypt peace treaty:

"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."

[Pakuni]

The Civil War was not fought to end racism Pakuni, it was to end slavery, but I think you know that. You are the one being disingenuous.  Racism has existed in every culture from the beginning of time and continues today.

Thanks for reiterating my point. Appreciate the support.
Next time, instead of being so eager to disagree with me, read the full discussion first.

[Hards Alumni]

What did Israel actually release? I am not talking about some shmucks on twitter trying to get the jump. Video evidence shows the rocket comes from Gaza. An intercepted phone call between 2 Hamas soldiers state it was PIJ. But sure, Israel is lying because you have become an expert on the sounds of rockets.

Sorry, I missed this earlier.  Finding deleted tweets isn't something I'm interested in doing, but you're welcome to look for yourself.

I posted https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1714400598991261966 before. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

Edited to add more:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-hospital-explosion-israel-wwk-explainer-intl/index.html

"A video posted by the official State of Israel's account on social media platform X on Tuesday night was also presented as evidence that the hospital was struck in outgoing rocket fire from militants. But the timestamp on the video appeared not to match up with the time that the explosion took place, and the tweet was later edited to remove the video."

All I have said is to not believe everything Israel says.  Their history speaks for itself.  Wait for the independent investigation.  If that comes back and says Israel's version of events is accurate, I will have no problem agreeing with it.