Was: Israel is at War; Now: Scoopers diagnose your anti-Semitism

[MU82]

I assume you think the United States is evil as well.

This is just dopey, Muggs. He didn't say that, neither did anybody else here, and it's this kind of outrageous over-the-top crapola that has gotten things where they are in our society.

FWIW, I'm much more of a hawkish, pro-Israel person than most of the Scoopers you're arguing with, but your rhetoric is beyond unhelpful; it's corrosive.

[MuggsyB]

You advocate for all this death and destruction, including any civilians caught in the crossfire as some magic way to solve this problem.

I want you to imagine yourself, huddling in a bombed out building with your pregnant wife, and young children. You have supported peace and were against Hamas' actions your entire life. You have no food, water, or medicine for your wife and children. All calls for aid were denied. Aid trucks were either bombed or threatened to be bombed.

You are going to watch your wife and children slowly die of starvation and lack of clean water. All while people on the other side say you deserve to die, that you are "animals."

If you happen to live through all of that, having lost everything. What do you do next?

Do you think the Israelis are the ones who don't (didn't) want a 2-State solution or is it Palestinian leadership?

[The Sultan]

Translate what he said and how it makes sense. 

Which is why people don't take you seriously.

[Uncle Rico]

Do you think the Israelis are the ones who don't (didn't) want a 2-State solution or is it Palestinian leadership?

Netanyahu doesn't

[MuggsyB]

Netanyahu doesn't

Okay.  But what about the PA and Hamas.  Why don't you educate us on all of the possible deals over the years and what exactly happened. 

[Pakuni]

Translate what he said and how it makes sense.

I don't have the time or crayons to explain it to you.

[Uncle Rico]

Okay.  But what about the PA and Hamas.  Why don't you educate us on all of the possible deals over the years and what exactly happened.

I never said they did but it's not a one-way street like you insinuated.  Netanyahu's rhetoric enflamed the far right that helped lead to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin over the Oslo Accords. 

[MuggsyB]

I don't have the time or crayons to explain it to you.

I didn't ask for you to translate but why don't you comment about Hamas specifically targeting Elementary Schools and Youth Centers?  What's the overall philosophy behind that?

[Uncle Rico]

I didn't ask for you to translate but why don't you' comment about Hamas specifically targeting Elementary Schools and Youth Centers?  What's the overall philosophy behind that?

Pakuni called Hamas evil and supports Israel's rights to defend itself and take on Hamas.  Next.

[forgetful]

Do you think the Israelis are the ones who don't (didn't) want a 2-State solution or is it Palestinian leadership?

You didn't answer my question.

Also, Netanyahu once said after Chinese atrocities (which was distracting the world), that they missed the opportunity "to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the (occupied) territories".

So how about you take another chance at answering my question.

[MuggsyB]

I never said they did but it's not a one-way street like you insinuated.  Netanyahu's rhetoric enflamed the far right that helped lead to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin over the Oslo Accords.

Oh.....that clears everything up.

[Uncle Rico]

Oh.....that clears everything up.

Good.  Glad to help. 

[forgetful]

Okay.  But what about the PA and Hamas.  Why don't you educate us on all of the possible deals over the years and what exactly happened.

The PA has been calling for a 2-state solution since something like 1982. I'm not sure how much you know about the history of which you speak.

The UN has repeatedly tried to pass 2-state solutions, but Israel and the US vote against it, with the US vetoing it.

[Pakuni]

I didn't ask for you to translate but why don't you comment about Hamas specifically targeting Elementary Schools and Youth Centers?  What's the overall philosophy behind that?

Hamas is an evil organization and their actions have been consistently monstrous. I hope Israel succeeds in eliminating it.

Why don't you comment on Israel bombing an area where the IDF had encouraged refugees to go, killing 70 civilians.

[MuggsyB]

Hamas is an evil organization and their actions have been consistently monstrous. I hope Israel succeeds in eliminating it.

Why don't you comment on Israel bombing an area where the IDF had encouraged refugees to go, killing 70 civilians.

Is Hamas allowing Gazans to leave,?

[forgetful]

NM

[Pakuni]

Is Hamas allowing Gazans to leave,?

Obviously.
But that doesn't answer my question.  Give it another go.

[Lennys Tap]

So ... why not both?
This is where you're badly missing the point. There's no need to spin a false narrative where we have to choose between murderous terrorists on one side and an oppressive apartheid regime on the other.
The only correct answer is to reject BOTH evils.

To be sure, we should support Israel's right to defend itself and bring justice to those responsible for the Oct. 7 attacks. And for other geopolitical reasons, Israel is an ally and should continue to be an ally. But that doesn't mean we should accept their misdeeds, or twist ourselves in pretzels trying to defend them with arguments like yours. Instead, we should use our relationship with them to dissuade them from their worst instincts and encourages them to seek an equitable solution.

Right now, Israel is waging a war to wipe out Hamas, and I hope they achieve that goal. But when this is over, they're still going to be surrounded by Palestinians and other Arabs. And they're going to have to find a peace with them, one that hopefully avoids oppressing their neighbors. Otherwise, it's lather, rinse repeat.

But in the meantime, have fun with stupid and pointless internet debates over which sides' bad behavior is worse.

Sorry, you'll never convince me that all bad behavior is the same. I think genocide is the most serious crime man can commit/advocate and it's not close.

[Pakuni]

Sorry, you'll never convince me that all bad behavior is the same. I think genocide is the most serious crime man can commit/advocate and it's not close.

Lenny.... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not explaining myself very well.

I'm not trying to convince you that all bad behavior is the same. Nothing I've written here states or even implies that. I'm simply pointing out that the argument you're trying to make is pointless, futile and unnecessary.  The need to choose one evil over another exists only in your mind. In the real world, we can renounce both.

[Jockey]

Arguing with Muggsy is like arguing with trump.

Sometimes you just have to say that this guy is too ignorant to bother with. Let the low IQers deal with him.

[forgetful]

Lenny.... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not explaining myself very well, as opposed
to you simply being willfully obtuse

I'm not trying to convince you that all bad behavior is the same. Nothing I've written here states or even implies that. I'm simply pointing out that the argument you're trying to make is pointless, futile and unnecessary.  The need to choose one evil over another exists only in your mind. In the real world, we can renounce both.

To phrase this another way, and to possibly give Lenny the little win he is looking for.

If you told me I had to choose either Genocide or Apartheid for my people, I'd choose Apartheid.

But we should live in a world where we are not choosing between those two evils, and both should be condemned.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny.... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not explaining myself very well, as opposed
to you simply being willfully obtuse

I'm not trying to convince you that all bad behavior is the same. Nothing I've written here states or even implies that. I'm simply pointing out that the argument you're trying to make is pointless, futile and unnecessary.  The need to choose one evil over another exists only in your mind. In the real world, we can renounce both.

Pakuni....I'll also give you the benefit of the doubt as opposed to thinking you're being willfully obtuse.just

I'm not "choosing"one evil over another. I'm stating what should be obvious - that the response to each should be dictated by just how evil/heinous they are. And that when faced with an enemy whose stated goal is genocide - your race's extinction - that is facing an evil like no other. And that the response should be whatever it takes.

[forgetful]

Pakuni....I'll also give you the benefit of the doubt as opposed to thinking you're being willfully obtuse.just

I'm not "choosing"one evil over another. I'm stating what should be obvious - that the response to each should be dictated by just how evil/heinous they are. And that when faced with an enemy whose stated goal is genocide - your race's extinction - that is facing an evil like no other. And that the response should be whatever it takes.

If this is your stance, there is a philosophical problem. Who is the entity that gets to decide what counts as "genocide?" In most modern clashes between ethnically distinct groups, each side claims the other is committing genocide.

The same thing is occurring right now. Supporters of each side have accused each other of genocide, or supporting genocide.

If we take your stance, then each side would believe they are morally just in doing whatever it takes, which means a constant escalation of terrible atrocities.

A more philosophically clean stance, is that war crimes, terrorism, apartheid and all the evils going on right now are wrong and should not be allowed.

[Pakuni]

And that the response should be whatever it takes.

Including genocide?

[21Jumpstreet]

If this is your stance, there is a philosophical problem. Who is the entity that gets to decide what counts as "genocide?" In most modern clashes between ethnically distinct groups, each side claims the other is committing genocide.

The same thing is occurring right now. Supporters of each side have accused each other of genocide, or supporting genocide.

If we take your stance, then each side would believe they are morally just in doing whatever it takes, which means a constant escalation of terrible atrocities.

A more philosophically clean stance, is that war crimes, terrorism, apartheid and all the evils going on right now are wrong and should not be allowed.

Excellent. Out of context, Lenny could be speaking about either side.