Thought I'd start up a new thread....This is the slowest start to an offseason that I can remember.
New rumor today that SF is willing to take on all of Stanton's contract. Seems that deal is really holding things up.
What are you hoping or expecting your team to accomplish this offseason?
I'm interested to see how the Cubs address the rotation, the bullpen, and if they end up trading a young hitter, which I don't necessarily think is as likely as a lot of people seem to.
Once the Stanton situation gets worked out and Ohtani signs, things will definitely start to pick up. This MLB offseason is similar to when LeBron and Carmelo were UFAs. Every team seems to be waiting for the first domino to fall before making any significant moves.
I really think that Alex Cobb ends up with the Cubs. He has connections with Maddon and Hickey and would likely come at a reasonable price. I also wouldn't be surprised if they gave Tyler Chatwood a serious look. He's had some injury issues but he's only 28 and had a 3.49 ERA outside of Denver last season. Former Theo draft pick Clay Buchholz could be an option on an incentive-laden deal as well. They also still have Eddie Butler who was adequate in 11 starts last season before getting injured at AAA.
In terms of relievers, Addison Reed and Brandon Morrow appear to be pretty high on their list. I'd also anticipate that they're expecting Justin Wilson to bounce back from his awful Cub cameo last season. As ugly as it was, his FIP was still just 3.72. An under-the-radar signing could be Steve Cishek who finished 2017 pitching light's out under Hickey in TB. I definitely don't like the idea of dealing Russell, Baez or Happ for a closer.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 29, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
Once the Stanton situation gets worked out and Ohtani signs, things will definitely start to pick up. This MLB offseason is similar to when LeBron and Carmelo were UFAs. Every team seems to be waiting for the first domino to fall before making any significant moves.
I really think that Alex Cobb ends up with the Cubs. He has connections with Maddon and Hickey and would likely come at a reasonable price. I also wouldn't be surprised if they gave Tyler Chatwood a serious look. He's had some injury issues but he's only 28 and had a 3.49 ERA outside of Denver last season. Former Theo draft pick Clay Buchholz could be an option on an incentive-laden deal as well. They also still have Eddie Butler who was adequate in 11 starts last season before getting injured at AAA.
In terms of relievers, Addison Reed and Brandon Morrow appear to be pretty high on their list. I'd also anticipate that they're expecting Justin Wilson to bounce back from his awful Cub cameo last season. As ugly as it was, his FIP was still just 3.72. An under-the-radar signing could be Steve Cishek who finished 2017 pitching light's out under Hickey in TB. I definitely don't like the idea of dealing Russell, Baez or Happ for a closer.
We're on the same page as far Cobb and Chatwood. Reed as well. Morrow's injury history worries me.
I also like Jake McGee for the pen. There are a ton of solid relievers out there this year so I also think they wait and get a couple of guys on solid deals.
Personally, I don't think Russell or Baez are going anywhere. It weakens you too much up the middle. If one of the hitters is traded it will be for a starter but for some reason I just don't see it happening.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 29, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Thought I'd start up a new thread....This is the slowest start to an offseason that I can remember.
It wasn't too many years ago that most of the top FAs would sign the first few days they could.
Quote from: Jockey on November 29, 2017, 05:30:50 PM
It wasn't too many years ago that most of the top FAs would sign the first few days they could.
Maybe the market for the hitters won't develop until Giancarlo Stanton's status becomes clear.
- just read the whole thread and see that this was already mentioned - oops!
Obtani finalists coming out.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2017, 06:08:15 PM
Maybe the market for the hitters won't develop until Giancarlo Stanton's status becomes clear.
- just read the whole thread and see that this was already mentioned - oops!
As I said, the top guys used to be signed in the 1st couple of days - regardless of who was waiting to get traded.
Snark on someone else - I'm not interested.
Quote from: Jockey on December 03, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
As I said, the top guys used to be signed in the 1st couple of days - regardless of who was waiting to get traded.
Snark on someone else - I'm not interested.
??? I was apologizing for being redundant and crediting you for making the point before I did.
Apparently the Marlins have agreed to frameworks for Stanton trades with the Giants and Cards.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2017, 08:02:33 PM
??? I was apologizing for being redundant and crediting you for making the point before I did.
I apologize. I thought you were telling me to read the earlier post.
How about changing the title to the Cubs/Brewers 2018 season with a pinch of White Sox.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on December 05, 2017, 04:18:58 PM
How about changing the title to the Cubs/Brewers 2018 season with a pinch of White Sox.
Hey, there's a Twins fan. And Detroit.
Cubs sign Tyler Chatwood to a 3-year deal. Terms not yet disclosed, but I'd bet there are quite a few incentives in there.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 07, 2017, 12:22:18 PM
Cubs sign Tyler Chatwood to a 3-year deal. Terms not yet disclosed, but I'd bet there are quite a few incentives in there.
3/38
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 07, 2017, 12:22:18 PM
Cubs sign Tyler Chatwood to a 3-year deal. Terms not yet disclosed, but I'd bet there are quite a few incentives in there.
When does the PED regimen start?
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on December 07, 2017, 12:45:12 PM
When does the PED regimen start?
Ask Wades.
He got a little more than I anticipated but I like the signing as a bottom of the rotation piece with upside.
Quote from: PTM on December 05, 2017, 06:45:40 PM
And Detroit.
Tigers are going to be bad. Not historically bad. They won 43 games in 2003. But 90-100 loss bad. And they will make a deal for virtually anyone on the roster. Fullmer, Castellanos, make an offer. Basically, they want to blow it up and start on their own 5-7 year plan.
Dee Gordon to the Mariners. Presuming the return is cheap prospects my wild speculation includes:
1) Wonder what this means for Cano - a move to 1B?
2) Also wonder if this means the Mariners know re Ohtani one way or the other.
3) Does this raise the chances that Stanton lands in StL? There had been speculation Panik would go back to Mia if he went to SF, and Mia could include Gordon to play 2B.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 07, 2017, 04:14:31 PM
Dee Gordon to the Mariners. Presuming the return is cheap prospects my wild speculation includes:
1) Wonder what this means for Cano - a move to 1B?
Mariners say gordon will play center field.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2017, 04:58:24 PM
Mariners say gordon will play center field.
Hmmm, I suppose he should be fine there. He's certainly got the wheels. Always interesting to trade for a 30 year old guy to move him to a difficult defensive spot, but realistically its still probably a decent upgrade overall from Dyson (at least based on his stats last year).
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 07, 2017, 04:14:31 PM
2) Also wonder if this means the Mariners know re Ohtani one way or the other.
Sea also apparently getting $1M for their international bonus pool. That makes them the top spender left on Ohtani's list. i thought buckchuckler read the tea leaves right when he predicted the M's in the Ohtani thread before this trade - my confirmation bias would say this confirms it.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 07, 2017, 04:14:31 PM
Dee Gordon to the Mariners. Presuming the return is cheap prospects my wild speculation includes:
1) Wonder what this means for Cano - a move to 1B?
2) Also wonder if this means the Mariners know re Ohtani one way or the other.
3) Does this raise the chances that Stanton lands in StL? There had been speculation Panik would go back to Mia if he went to SF, and Mia could include Gordon to play 2B.
Stanton won't approve a trade to St. Louis.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 07, 2017, 05:10:41 PM
Hmmm, I suppose he should be fine there. He's certainly got the wheels. Always interesting to trade for a 30 year old guy to move him to a difficult defensive spot, but realistically its still probably a decent upgrade overall from Dyson (at least based on his stats last year).
Sea also apparently getting $1M for their international bonus pool. That makes them the top spender left on Ohtani's list. i thought buckchuckler read the tea leaves right when he predicted the M's in the Ohtani thread before this trade - my confirmation bias would say this confirms it.
The Mariners may get Ohtani but I don't think the trades for extra pool money indicate anything. Each team is just doing all they can to present the best offer.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 03, 2017, 06:56:15 PM
Obtani finalists coming out.
Looks like Angels.
https://twitter.com/i/moments/939211994497998848 (https://twitter.com/i/moments/939211994497998848)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on December 08, 2017, 02:23:03 PM
Looks like Angels.
https://twitter.com/i/moments/939211994497998848 (https://twitter.com/i/moments/939211994497998848)
Cool. Trout, Otani, Upton. Pretty nice trio there.
I'd love to kniw how this process went. I really hope the story comes out.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on December 08, 2017, 02:23:03 PM
Looks like Angels.
https://twitter.com/i/moments/939211994497998848 (https://twitter.com/i/moments/939211994497998848)
I'm surprised. But if not the Cubs I'm good with this result. Be interested to see how he does and how they use him.
Chico is celebrating.
Quote from: buckchuckler on December 08, 2017, 03:41:33 PM
Cool. Trout, Otani, Upton. Pretty nice trio there.
If Ohtani is any good.
Looks like Stanton to the Yankees is nearly done.
Poor, poor Starlin Castro.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 09, 2017, 07:32:10 AM
Looks like Stanton to the Yankees is nearly done.
Stanton, Judge, Sanchez is a pretty decent trio I guess.
Quote from: buckchuckler on December 09, 2017, 09:00:42 AM
Stanton, Judge, Sanchez is a pretty decent trio I guess.
Beginning to smell #28; just need another pitcher.
Quote from: buckchuckler on December 09, 2017, 09:00:42 AM
Stanton, Judge, Sanchez is a pretty decent trio I guess.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Greg Bird hits 40 dingers next year.
The one bright spot is that it will stop all their whining about how Ohtani to the Angels was rigged.
Judge and Stanton in the same lineup? The Yankees are going to have to put the protective netting on the bleachers too.
Quote from: PTM on December 09, 2017, 08:55:29 AM
Poor, poor Starlin Castro.
At least he'll be the most popular Castro in Miami.
He should be able to play himself off that team soon enough, though. He makes $10+ MM for each of the next two years, plus a $16M club option for a year after that. Gotta think Jeets and the rest of that impoverished ownership group will have him flipped for cheap prospects by this time next year.
https://www.barstoolsports.com/baseball/shohei-ohtanis-physical-with-the-angels-reveals-damaged-ucl-in-pitching-elbow-further-damage-could-result-in-tommy-john-surgery
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2017, 12:06:17 PM
https://www.barstoolsports.com/baseball/shohei-ohtanis-physical-with-the-angels-reveals-damaged-ucl-in-pitching-elbow-further-damage-could-result-in-tommy-john-surgery
Saw that. Apparentlu Otanis' camp was very upfront about it so it wasn't a "damaged goods" case.
Also the Cards just got Marcel Ozuna. Great move in my opinion, though the return hasn't been reported yet.
I'm not surprised by the Machado/Sox rumors. I've been hearing for over a year now from people I'm friendly with at the Sox that they were going to be all in on Machado, and have mentioned that on here. I don't know if they flip him immediately or not to another team, but I know he's been their #1 target for next year's FA class.
Purge continues in Detroit. Kinsler to Angels for two prospects. Down to Cabrera, Victor Martinez, and Jordan Zimmerman with huge contracts. Next will probably be Fullmer to the Yankees. If they back up the prospect truck and give up a few.......
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 29, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
I really think that Alex Cobb ends up with the Cubs. He has connections with Maddon and Hickey and would likely come at a reasonable price. I also wouldn't be surprised if they gave Tyler Chatwood a serious look. He's had some injury issues but he's only 28 and had a 3.49 ERA outside of Denver last season. Former Theo draft pick Clay Buchholz could be an option on an incentive-laden deal as well. They also still have Eddie Butler who was adequate in 11 starts last season before getting injured at AAA.
In terms of relievers, Addison Reed and Brandon Morrow appear to be pretty high on their list. I'd also anticipate that they're expecting Justin Wilson to bounce back from his awful Cub cameo last season. As ugly as it was, his FIP was still just 3.72. An under-the-radar signing could be Steve Cishek who finished 2017 pitching light's out under Hickey in TB. I definitely don't like the idea of dealing Russell, Baez or Happ for a closer.
Cobb hasn't signed yet but still...
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ib1.gif)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 14, 2017, 09:17:04 AM
Cobb hasn't signed yet but still...
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ib1.gif)
(https://www.filepicker.io/api/file/GT8ImPmXTkaSlx9Nmxv6)
Quote from: tower912 on December 14, 2017, 09:00:45 AM
Purge continues in Detroit. Kinsler to Angels for two prospects. Down to Cabrera, Victor Martinez, and Jordan Zimmerman with huge contracts. Next will probably be Fullmer to the Yankees. If they back up the prospect truck and give up a few.......
The V Mart and Zimmerman contracts are among the worst in baseball.
Agreed.
Epstein and Hoyer meeting with Darvish in Dallas today, potentially because they've found Cobb's asking price to be prohibitive.
Going into the offseason I didn't think Darvish was a remote possibility but maybe things have changed.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 18, 2017, 04:21:02 PM
Epstein and Hoyer meeting with Darvish in Dallas today, potentially because they've found Cobb's asking price to be prohibitive.
Going into the offseason I didn't think Darvish was a remote possibility but maybe things have changed.
Don't they need to save money to be able to afford Harper?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2017, 05:15:59 PM
Don't they need to save money to be able to afford Harper?
The Cubs print money. My guess is they stay under the luxury tax this season and blow through it in 2019.
I still don't think Darvish is likely but I also don't think they'd sign anyone to a deal that would take Harper off the table.
Longoria to the Giants.
And the O's. Ouch. Yikes. Britton tore his ACL. Wonder if this inspires them to trade Machado even moreso.
Chacin to the Brewers on a 2-year, $16MM deal.
His stats look good, but his road-splits produced a 6.50 ERA away from Petco. eek. On the plus side, it doesn't appear he was susceptible to the long ball, even back in his COL days. So maybe he'll fill the role of innings-eater for the time being.
Who is signing Yu:
-Twins
-Cubs
-Astros
-Field
After the mlb 17 intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTMbj4WrnQw
Can mlb 18 the show get any better?
Quote from: GB Warrior on December 20, 2017, 03:15:41 PM
Chacin to the Brewers on a 2-year, $16MM deal.
His stats look good, but his road-splits produced a 6.50 ERA away from Petco. eek. On the plus side, it doesn't appear he was susceptible to the long ball, even back in his COL days. So maybe he'll fill the role of innings-eater for the time being.
He can throw a lot of innings to give the pen a break. Gonna need it with Four-inning Yovani back on the team.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 21, 2017, 01:43:54 AM
Who is signing Yu:
-Twins
-Cubs
-Astros
-Field
If Cubs get Cobb, then I choose "field".
Like most moves the Crew have made lately - solid, and not doing anything that hurts flexibility. The $2M plus incentives for Gallardo is a fine lottery ticket, and if he gives you decent enough long relief and spot start innings while staying reasonably healthy is good value. Plus it has the out during spring training, so very low risk.
Chacin's deal seems pretty much right at value, but I think Stearns was right to not be scared off by the home/road splits. He's always done a pretty good job limiting HRs, so it doesn't seem the deep porch in Petco is where the splits came from. With Miller Park being pretty pro-HR, Chacin might actually provide some sneaky good value (and did a pretty good job limiting damage during his time in Colorado)
Rumors that the Brewers offseason might be heating up, though it comes with a caveat worthy of the Washington Post headline in 2017: Crasnick tweeted, without evidence or details, that he's hearing the Brewers are close to "a trade". No details on who it might be.
Also reported that the Brewers entered the fray for Darvish. Could be that the market has stagnated that Stearns sees an opening.
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 22, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
Rumors that the Brewers offseason might be heating up, though it comes with a caveat worthy of the Washington Post headline in 2017: Crasnick tweeted, without evidence or details, that he's hearing the Brewers are close to "a trade". No details on who it might be.
Also reported that the Brewers entered the fray for Darvish. Could be that the market has stagnated that Stearns sees an opening.
Rumors are Ellsbury and a couple of top prospects was the trade that was going to happen. Not sure who the Brewers would give up in return. I'd have to imagine it wouldn't be much with Ellsbury's awful contract.
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 22, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
Rumors that the Brewers offseason might be heating up, though it comes with a caveat worthy of the Washington Post headline in 2017: Crasnick tweeted, without evidence or details, that he's hearing the Brewers are close to "a trade". No details on who it might be.
Santana.
Some combo of both giving Santana and taking on a large portion of Ellsbury's salary, all for prospects, makes sense. Deals from surplus (OFs and for the time being, $$/tax space) and keeps the farm system stocked for player development and future trades. Ellsbury's and Braun's deals are up the same year (though their combined $9M buyouts aren't nothing), which would provide a bunch of payroll flexibility as the next gen guys start hitting extension time.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 22, 2018, 10:16:51 AM
Some combo of both giving Santana and taking on a large portion of Ellsbury's salary, all for prospects, makes sense. Deals from surplus (OFs and for the time being, $$/tax space) and keeps the farm system stocked for player development and future trades. Ellsbury's and Braun's deals are up the same year (though their combined $9M buyouts aren't nothing), which would provide a bunch of payroll flexibility as the next gen guys start hitting extension time.
The Yankees may ask for Santana, but there is no way in heck the Brewers should give up Santana to get back Ellsbury. Santana alone should get them top prospect(s) from the Yankees. Taking on Ellsbury would be awful if they're giving up Santana. If Ellsbury is involved, it should be nothing more than Keon in return.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 22, 2018, 11:04:41 AM
The Yankees may ask for Santana, but there is no way in heck the Brewers should give up Santana to get back Ellsbury. Santana alone should get them top prospect(s) from the Yankees. Taking on Ellsbury would be awful if they're giving up Santana. If Ellsbury is involved, it should be nothing more than Keon in return.
Totally agree. Dealing Santana and bringing in Ellsbury would hopefully be structured as separate deals if the Yankees were interested in Broxton (unless they were willing to give up someone like Florial).
Quote from: wadesworld on January 22, 2018, 11:04:41 AM
The Yankees may ask for Santana, but there is no way in heck the Brewers should give up Santana to get back Ellsbury. Santana alone should get them top prospect(s) from the Yankees. Taking on Ellsbury would be awful if they're giving up Santana. If Ellsbury is involved, it should be nothing more than Keon in return.
Give me Ellsbury (full salary absorption by the Brewers) and a top pitching prospect, and I could get rid of Santana.
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 22, 2018, 01:43:33 PM
Give me Ellsbury (full salary absorption by the Brewers) and a top pitching prospect, and I could get rid of Santana.
I completely disagree. Ellsbury gets $21M/year through the 2020 season (buyout option for 2021). There is no way in heck the Brewers should give up Santana and take on that contract, no matter what prospects they get back.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 22, 2018, 04:23:37 PM
I completely disagree. Ellsbury gets $21M/year through the 2020 season (buyout option for 2021). There is no way in heck the Brewers should give up Santana and take on that contract, no matter what prospects they get back.
I agree.
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 22, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
Rumors that the Brewers offseason might be heating up, though it comes with a caveat worthy of the Washington Post headline in 2017: Crasnick tweeted, without evidence or details, that he's hearing the Brewers are close to "a trade". No details on who it might be.
Also reported that the Brewers entered the fray for Darvish. Could be that the market has stagnated that Stearns sees an opening.
I just hope
something happens this offseason. It has been so boring.
Outstanding line from Dillon Gee while being interviewed on MLB Network after signing in Japan: "I appreciate you having me on, but I think it sums up the Hot Stove season that you have me on."
Brewers apparently have made an offer for Yelich and are pretty strongly in pursuit.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 23, 2018, 04:05:49 PM
Brewers apparently have made an offer for Yelich and are pretty strongly in pursuit.
Curious what Stearns' end game is. A lot of interest in OFs (Yelich, Cain), which means the rest of our OFs are on the block. I wouldn't think he would, but would Braun waive his no-trade to Miami (hometown, easy access to Biogenesis) for Braun + prospects + cash considerations?
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 23, 2018, 04:41:14 PM
Curious what Stearns' end game is. A lot of interest in OFs (Yelich, Cain), which means the rest of our OFs are on the block. I wouldn't think he would, but would Braun waive his no-trade to Miami (hometown, easy access to Biogenesis) for Braun + prospects + cash considerations?
Miami would not trade for Braun. Their whole off-season has been about dumping salary. They would want one or two of our young OFs, plus young pitching.
All of our OFs should be on the block. CF was a disaster last year and I am not convinced Santana is as good as he looked.
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 23, 2018, 04:41:14 PM
Curious what Stearns' end game is. A lot of interest in OFs (Yelich, Cain), which means the rest of our OFs are on the block. I wouldn't think he would, but would Braun waive his no-trade to Miami (hometown, easy access to Biogenesis) for Braun + prospects + cash considerations?
I would guess their ask starts with Brinson and Hader.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 23, 2018, 06:37:42 PM
I would guess their ask starts with Brinson and Hader.
Pretty clear what Brewers are looking for.
A lead-off man - Cain, Ellsbury, Yelich
Got dat wit Villar, aina?
Quote from: Jockey on January 23, 2018, 06:48:18 PM
Pretty clear what Brewers are looking for.
A lead-off man - Cain, Ellsbury, Yelich
I see what you are saying, and he certainly has the skill set, but Yelich hasn't been a leadoff man since 2014. With that said, he would probably be able to handle that with no problem.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 23, 2018, 07:47:15 PM
I see what you are saying, and he certainly has the skill set, but Yelich hasn't been a leadoff man since 2014. With that said, he would probably be able to handle that with no problem.
You're right, but that was more because of the presence of Dee Gordon than any lack of lead-off ability by Yelich. I think he is a guy who could easily steal 25 playing for a guy like Counsel.
His OBP was 75 points higher than Villar last season - that an extra 40 or so more times on base over the course of a season. That translates into a lot of runs.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-brewers-are-trying-to-add-to-the-top/
Brewers get Christian Yelich from the AA team that used to be the Marlins.
They give up OF Lewis Brinson, INF Isan Díaz, OF Monte Harrison and RHP Jordan Yamamoto.
Unlike the Marlins' other deals, that's a respectable return.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 25, 2018, 05:20:51 PM
Brewers get Christian Yelich from the AA team that used to be the Marlins.
They give up OF Lewis Brinson, INF Isan Díaz, OF Monte Harrison and RHP Jordan Yamamoto.
Unlike the Marlins' other deals, that's a respectable return.
I like that deal. He's tied up for four seasons with an option for a fifth.
Gave up a haul, but Yelich is very good. Wishing Diaz wasn't one of the players included but prospects are prospects.
As probably the only Marlins fan on the board, you Brewer fans just got one heck of a player.
I am a spring training season ticket holder of the Marlins for the past ten years and have seen the likes of Stanton, Jose Fernandez, Yelich, Realmuto, Ozuna and other players come thru.
Yelich is a great fielder, won a gold glove, hitter, won Silver Slugger, has speed and will hit anywhere in the top three spots. Just a tremendous swing. No personal issues, never a problem child and only had one injury (back) the kept him out of the lineup.
Great pickup and I hope he gets the recognition of fans (he has it among players) in the Brewer community.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 25, 2018, 05:40:23 PM
Gave up a haul, but Yelich is very good. Wishing Diaz wasn't one of the players included but prospects are prospects.
Yup. Per mlb.com, that's prospects 1, 6, and 14 from the system (Yamamoto not in the top 30). 5 years of affordable control on a 20/20 guy that is 26 and slashes .290/.370/.440 is worth its weight in gold to a small market team, though.
I think all of the economics around this deal say you have to do it. Imagine the Brewers implode and the competitive window doesn't come to fruition. In two years from now, if Yelich just plays to his averages and maybe develops a tiny bit more power to hit 25 HRs in 2018 and 2019 (or just the Miller Park effect), I could see the Brewers being able to get two top 10 prospects from a decent farm system in the 2020 offseason for him. And that's with two less years and the option raise kicking in. As far as sunk cost certainty, it doesn't get much better than that. The only way this deal looks bad in retrospect (barring injury or calamitous dropoff out of nowhere from Yelich) is if Brinson routinely turns in 30/30 .300 seasons. And he might! But I don't think that possibility is enough to keep you from pulling the trigger.
Quote from: nyg on January 25, 2018, 05:51:42 PM
As probably the only Marlins fan on the board, you Brewer fans just got one heck of a player.
I am a spring training season ticket holder of the Marlins for the past ten years and have seen the likes of Stanton, Jose Fernandez, Yelich, Realmuto, Ozuna and other players come thru.
Yelich is a great fielder, won a gold glove, hitter, won Silver Slugger, has speed and will hit anywhere in the top three spots. Just a tremendous swing. No personal issues, never a problem child and only had one injury (back) the kept him out of the lineup.
Great pickup and I hope he gets the recognition of fans (he has it among players) in the Brewer community.
Plus, Yelich is going from a pitcher's park to a hitter's park.
Looks like a good trade for you guys as well.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 25, 2018, 05:40:23 PM
Gave up a haul, but Yelich is very good. Wishing Diaz wasn't one of the players included but prospects are prospects.
Exactly. This is one of the reasons you stockpile.
Marlins will stink for years to come. Jose's death was the start and the finish was losing one of best outfields, if not the best in Ozuna, Yelich and Stanton. Realmuto next, and the team will consist of has beens and minor leaguers. Attendance may be lowest of any team in history. Shame.
But, they got some young, extremely talented players from Yanks, Cards and Brewers. Just going to take time and hope they are good as expected and I get to watch them grow every March.
Wow. Go Brewers. A new OF
Oh my and now Cain. 80 over 5 with no trade protection. I'm having a much tougher time immediately jumping on board with this one.
Quote from: #bansultan on January 25, 2018, 06:26:27 PM
Exactly. This is one of the reasons you stockpile.
Yup.
So they basically got Yelich, Chase Anderson, and Travis Shaw for Lucroy, Thornburg, Segura, and Tyler Wagner.
That;s how a good GM moves pieces around.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 25, 2018, 06:39:42 PM
Oh my and now Cain. 80 over 5 with no trade protection. I'm having a much tougher time immediately jumping on board with this one.
Biggest issue for MIL last year was getting guys on base. Cain and Yelich will solve that problem. Love my keeper in Fantasy - Travis Shaw. Lots of RBI ops.
One more deal to go - Santana for a starter.
Sounds like Brewers sign Cain - 5/80.
He'll help in the near-term but that's a pretty bad contract, IMO.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 25, 2018, 06:56:10 PM
Sounds like Brewers sign Cain - 5/80.
He'll help in the near-term but that's a pretty bad contract, IMO.
Fangraphs predivted 4/68, so 5/80 is right in the ballpark.
Over the last 3 years, Cain is 24th in WAR among position players, so barring injury, they should get more than their money's worth over the 1st 3 years.
Good article from yesterday:
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/someone-should-sign-lorenzo-cain/
Awesum, now get rida Braun for a bag of rosin and we bee talkin', hey?
Quote from: Jockey on January 25, 2018, 07:12:01 PM
Fangraphs predivted 4/68, so 5/80 is right in the ballpark.
Over the last 3 years, Cain is 24th in WAR among position players, so barring injury, they should get more than their money's worth over the 1st 3 years.
Good article from yesterday:
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/someone-should-sign-lorenzo-cain/
He should certainly be good the first two years and the Brewers can move him to a corner with the presence of Yelich so he won't have to play CF as his speed declines. However, I'm stunned he got 5 years in this market. I still think it's a bad contract when looking at the years.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 25, 2018, 06:01:29 PM
Yup. Per mlb.com, that's prospects 1, 6, and 14 from the system (Yamamoto not in the top 30). 5 years of affordable control on a 20/20 guy that is 26 and slashes .290/.370/.440 is worth its weight in gold to a small market team, though.
I think all of the economics around this deal say you have to do it. Imagine the Brewers implode and the competitive window doesn't come to fruition. In two years from now, if Yelich just plays to his averages and maybe develops a tiny bit more power to hit 25 HRs in 2018 and 2019 (or just the Miller Park effect), I could see the Brewers being able to get two top 10 prospects from a decent farm system in the 2020 offseason for him. And that's with two less years and the option raise kicking in. As far as sunk cost certainty, it doesn't get much better than that. The only way this deal looks bad in retrospect (barring injury or calamitous dropoff out of nowhere from Yelich) is if Brinson routinely turns in 30/30 .300 seasons. And he might! But I don't think that possibility is enough to keep you from pulling the trigger.
Yelich's never gone 20/20. Still an excellent player, of course.
Brewers should keep Santana and move Braun to 1B.
Santana, Cain and Yellich might be the best defensive outfield in baseball.
I'm afraid they will trade Santana for a mediocre pitcher. They still have the money. Sign Darvish and they're all set to make a legit run at the division.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 25, 2018, 07:41:53 PM
He should certainly be good the first two years and the Brewers can move him to a corner with the presence of Yelich so he won't have to play CF as his speed declines. However, I'm stunned he got 5 years in this market. I still think it's a bad contract when looking at the years.
I agree - I didn't expect anyone to give 5 years. I think that has been the holdup on several of the top FAs.
Mark Attanosio continues to impress. Now let's hope he follows Arthur Blank's lead in the newest way to make money:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22212592/atlanta-falcons-drop-prices-make-more-money-mercedes-benz-stadium-concessions (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22212592/atlanta-falcons-drop-prices-make-more-money-mercedes-benz-stadium-concessions)
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 23, 2018, 04:41:14 PM
Curious what Stearns' end game is. A lot of interest in OFs (Yelich, Cain), which means the rest of our OFs are on the block. I wouldn't think he would, but would Braun waive his no-trade to Miami (hometown, easy access to Biogenesis) for Braun + prospects + cash considerations?
Haven't Yall learned yet. No one wants Braun. Between his awful fielding, age, speed, contract, and stigma. The Brewers have been trying to get rid of him for a while. No one is ever going to bite.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on January 26, 2018, 02:23:38 AM
Haven't Yall learned yet. No one wants Braun. Between his awful fielding, age, speed, contract, and stigma. The Brewers have been trying to get rid of him for a while. No one is ever going to bite.
I was saying that it would take a lot (prospects, paying the majority of his salary). All of which is true and is also not something a small market team does often, if ever. No chance Braun waives anything now that we're going for it.
Will be interesting to see where the offseason goes from here. I've seen comments about Braun to first, but that seems premature to me. Much more likely is a trade for 2 of the other 3. I'd like to keep Phillips since he plays all 3 positions and would appear to be the future to replace Braun.
One would think that we pull out of the Darvish race given where it would leave our payroll, but we'll see. Today certainly made MKE more attractive for him. Will be an interesting couple days.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on January 25, 2018, 08:03:00 PM
Santana, Cain and Yellich might be the best defensive outfield in baseball.
That's no thanks to Santana. Great arm, but an otherwise awful defender
Yelich and Cain are good players. I would take either of them as the Cubs' CF and lead-off man. The prices may have been a bit steep for both but you can't fault the Brewers for going all in. Unfortunately, they face the same predicament that the Pirates faced a few years ago. They're a pretty good team but they're not the best team in the division. Basically, their chances of making a run in the playoffs are resting on being able to win a 1-game crapshoot.
The Brewers should be pretty interesting to watch this season. They've got some good, young talent and they're coming off an 86-win season. However, they had a significant number of players around age 30 who had career years (Shaw, Pina, Thames, Anderson, Nelson). Can those guys duplicate that success or will they regress to the mean? Fangraphs projects the Brewers to win 76 games in 2018* so their metrics clearly project regression.
* - not sure if the Yelich and Cain acquisitions were included in the projection
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on January 26, 2018, 02:23:38 AM
Haven't Yall learned yet. No one wants Braun. Between his awful fielding, age, speed, contract, and stigma. The Brewers have been trying to get rid of him for a while. No one is ever going to bite.
If Braun can put together a year like he did in 2016, he's fine. Overpaid but not a negative value by any means.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 26, 2018, 08:24:32 AM
Yelich and Cain are good players. I would take either of them as the Cubs' CF and lead-off man. The prices may have been a bit steep for both but you can't fault the Brewers for going all in. Unfortunately, they face the same predicament that the Pirates faced a few years ago. They're a pretty good team but they're not the best team in the division. Basically, their chances of making a run in the playoffs are resting on being able to win a 1-game crapshoot.
The Brewers should be pretty interesting to watch this season. They've got some good, young talent and they're coming off an 86-win season. However, they had a significant number of players around age 30 who had career years (Shaw, Pina, Thames, Anderson, Nelson). Can those guys duplicate that success or will they regress to the mean? Fangraphs projects the Brewers to win 76 games in 2018* so their metrics clearly project regression.
* - not sure if the Yelich and Cain acquisitions were included in the projection
There is certainly risk of that scenario, but I wouldn't be so sure about it. I think right now there are 3 teams that could contend to win the NL central. The Cubs haven't improved this offseason, and I think they have gotten worse. Morrow will have a tough time being as effective as Davis ( no blown saves right?). They replaced Arrieta with Chatwood (clearly a significant downgrade) and haven't addressed a lineup that had some issues last season. Maybe Almora answers those questions, but maybe not.
I agree that the Brewers are a pitcher short, but they have the assets to get one, which could make them a serious contender or even a favorite in the division.
The Cardinals have improved as well, I know I am really curious to see what they have in Reyes, and if they can make 1 more move and get a middle of the order bat first baseman (ohhh Hosmeeeerrrr.....)
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 26, 2018, 09:41:34 AM
There is certainly risk of that scenario, but I wouldn't be so sure about it. I think right now there are 3 teams that could contend to win the NL central. The Cubs haven't improved this offseason, and I think they have gotten worse. Morrow will have a tough time being as effective as Davis ( no blown saves right?). They replaced Arrieta with Chatwood (clearly a significant downgrade) and haven't addressed a lineup that had some issues last season. Maybe Almora answers those questions, but maybe not.
I agree that the Brewers are a pitcher short, but they have the assets to get one, which could make them a serious contender or even a favorite in the division.
The Cardinals have improved as well, I know I am really curious to see what they have in Reyes, and if they can make 1 more move and get a middle of the order bat first baseman (ohhh Hosmeeeerrrr.....)
Chatwood is not replacing Arrieta - he is replacing Lackey and will likely be a solid upgrade. The Cubs will also have Quintana for the entire year and I will be stunned if they don't add one of Darvish/Arrieta/Cobb, with the preference being Darvish.
Morrow is not a sure thing and he has had health issues but the contract Davis got is awful and he had a lot of underlying issues that were concerning last year, including walk rate and decreased velo. Between Morrow, Edwards, Strop, Cishek, and hopefully a bounce back from Justin Wilson, I feel fine with the back end of the bullpen.
What are the issues with the lineup? They scored the 4th most runs in baseball and had the 6th highest OPS.
Perhaps there's a bit too much swing and miss and they don't have a natural leadoff hitter but the team should score a lot of runs. Rizzo, Bryant, and Contreras will produce. Schwarber put up an .894 OPS post All-Star break. Guys like Almora, Happ, Baez, and Russell still can improve (although that's not guaranteed). Scoring runs is not a concern to me.
The Brewers and Cardinals are better but I'm not particularly worried about either of them and if the Cubs add Darvish I expect them to be a little better this year.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 26, 2018, 12:46:24 PM
Chatwood is not replacing Arrieta - he is replacing Lackey and will likely be a solid upgrade. The Cubs will also have Quintana for the entire year and I will be stunned if they don't add one of Darvish/Arrieta/Cobb, with the preference being Darvish.
Morrow is not a sure thing and he has had health issues but the contract Davis got is awful and he had a lot of underlying issues that were concerning last year, including walk rate and decreased velo. Between Morrow, Edwards, Strop, Cishek, and hopefully a bounce back from Justin Wilson, I feel fine with the back end of the bullpen.
What are the issues with the lineup? They scored the 4th most runs in baseball and had the 6th highest OPS.
Perhaps there's a bit too much swing and miss and they don't have a natural leadoff hitter but the team should score a lot of runs. Rizzo, Bryant, and Contreras will produce. Schwarber put up an .894 OPS post All-Star break. Guys like Almora, Happ, Baez, and Russell still can improve (although that's not guaranteed). Scoring runs is not a concern to me.
The Brewers and Cardinals are better but I'm not particularly worried about either of them and if the Cubs add Darvish I expect them to be a little better this year.
Ok, so they replaced Arrieta with noone. That is even worse. Maybe they get Darvish or someone else, but they haven't yet. Lester is a year older and coming off a season where he didn't look like a TOR starter. Their rotation is worse, currently, and without doubt.
Morrow may be lights out. Cishek and co maybe better. But Davis was perfect is save opportunities. Bullpens are volatile. The Cubs are taking some calculated risks without a proven closer, could be a great pen, could be good or ok, could be bad. I know I would rather have Knebel.
The lineup issues are minor, but the leadoff spot is a question for sure. Jay was pretty solid last year, and I guess Almora will be given every chance this year and will likely be just fine. Zobrist may be fading into the end of his career, Heyward isn't a prize. But as you stated, they will score runs. They have 2 legit MVP caliber hitters in their order which fixes a lot of problems. Maybe this is the year Schwarber hits 40 HRs...and .250. But they haven't gotten any better offensively, as you pointed out may e they didn't need to, but the Brewers and Cards have improved.
I still think the Cubs are most likely to win the division, but their 2 primary competitors have gotten markedly better and from what I have seen, the Cubs have not. I wouldn't just give them the division. They are much the same, at best (pending that starter), while the teams beneath them got better. The Brewers finished 6 games back and added about 9.5 WAR between Yelich and Cain. That's not quite how it works, but the division has tightened in my opinion. That's all I'm saying.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 26, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Ok, so they replaced Arrieta with noone. That is even worse. Maybe they get Darvish or someone else, but they haven't yet. Lester is a year older and coming off a season where he didn't look like a TOR starter. Their rotation is worse, currently, and without doubt.
Morrow may be lights out. Cishek and co maybe better. But Davis was perfect is save opportunities. Bullpens are volatile. The Cubs are taking some calculated risks without a proven closer, could be a great pen, could be good or ok, could be bad. I know I would rather have Knebel.
The lineup issues are minor, but the leadoff spot is a question for sure. Jay was pretty solid last year, and I guess Almora will be given every chance this year and will likely be just fine. Zobrist may be fading into the end of his career, Heyward isn't a prize. But as you stated, they will score runs. They have 2 legit MVP caliber hitters in their order which fixes a lot of problems. Maybe this is the year Schwarber hits 40 HRs...and .250. But they haven't gotten any better offensively, as you pointed out may e they didn't need to, but the Brewers and Cards have improved.
I still think the Cubs are most likely to win the division, but their 2 primary competitors have gotten markedly better and from what I have seen, the Cubs have not. I wouldn't just give them the division. They are much the same, at best (pending that starter), while the teams beneath them got better. The Brewers finished 6 games back and added about 9.5 WAR between Yelich and Cain. That's not quite how it works, but the division has tightened in my opinion. That's all I'm saying.
The Brewers have added some talent, no doubt. However, your notion that the division has tightened is going off of the assumption that the Brewers will still get the same or similar production from guys like Thames, Pina, Shaw, Hernandez, Aguilar, Nelson and Anderson - all of whom had career years in 2017. Maybe they've turned the corner and most of them will produce similarly this year as well, but I don't think that's very likely.
The Cubs won 92 games despite getting down years offensively (relatively speaking) from Bryant, Russell, Zobrist and Schwarber. They didn't necessarily need to go out and get another hitter to improve their offense. They need their guys to stay healthy and play up to their abilities. Maybe Schwarber and Russell didn't really have down years, maybe 2017 is who they are, but I don't think that's very likely.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 26, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Ok, so they replaced Arrieta with noone. That is even worse. Maybe they get Darvish or someone else, but they haven't yet. Lester is a year older and coming off a season where he didn't look like a TOR starter. Their rotation is worse, currently, and without doubt.
Morrow may be lights out. Cishek and co maybe better. But Davis was perfect is save opportunities. Bullpens are volatile. The Cubs are taking some calculated risks without a proven closer, could be a great pen, could be good or ok, could be bad. I know I would rather have Knebel.
The lineup issues are minor, but the leadoff spot is a question for sure. Jay was pretty solid last year, and I guess Almora will be given every chance this year and will likely be just fine. Zobrist may be fading into the end of his career, Heyward isn't a prize. But as you stated, they will score runs. They have 2 legit MVP caliber hitters in their order which fixes a lot of problems. Maybe this is the year Schwarber hits 40 HRs...and .250. But they haven't gotten any better offensively, as you pointed out may e they didn't need to, but the Brewers and Cards have improved.
I still think the Cubs are most likely to win the division, but their 2 primary competitors have gotten markedly better and from what I have seen, the Cubs have not. I wouldn't just give them the division. They are much the same, at best (pending that starter), while the teams beneath them got better. The Brewers finished 6 games back and added about 9.5 WAR between Yelich and Cain. That's not quite how it works, but the division has tightened in my opinion. That's all I'm saying.
You forgot the cubs greatest strength. Their young players get better every year. And they are a young team.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 26, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Morrow may be lights out. Cishek and co maybe better. But Davis was perfect is save opportunities. Bullpens are volatile. The Cubs are taking some calculated risks without a proven closer, could be a great pen, could be good or ok, could be bad. I know I would rather have Knebel.
I don't think Morrow will be the closer, CJE will be. The bullpen was the Brewers strongest asset last season, which you claim to be volatile. Corey Knebel was a career replacement level player until last season where he outperformed his career stats by 277%. I don't think that's a guy I'm putting full faith behind.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 26, 2018, 03:20:33 PM
The Brewers have added some talent, no doubt. However, your notion that the division has tightened is going off of the assumption that the Brewers will still get the same or similar production from guys like Thames, Pina, Shaw, Hernandez, Aguilar, Nelson and Anderson - all of whom had career years in 2017. Maybe they've turned the corner and most of them will produce similarly this year as well, but I don't think that's very likely.
The Cubs won 92 games despite getting down years offensively (relatively speaking) from Bryant, Russell, Zobrist and Schwarber. They didn't necessarily need to go out and get another hitter to improve their offense. They need their guys to stay healthy and play up to their abilities. Maybe Schwarber and Russell didn't really have down years, maybe 2017 is who they are, but I don't think that's very likely.
Unfortunately for the Brewers, I think there is a lot correct here. Reversion to the mean will be good to the Cubs and bad to the Brewers. That being said, the Brewers' moves have made their all or nothing offensive approach quite a bit more balanced, which should be good for the entire lineup (though I'm still not wild about the Cain contract).
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on January 26, 2018, 03:27:06 PM
You forgot the cubs greatest strength. Their young players get better every year. And they are a young team.
Russell, Schwarber, Heyward, Bryant, Rizzo, Hendricks. They got better last year?
If it was sarcasm, I'll leave this for Cubbie fans anyway. 8-)
Quote from: Jockey on January 26, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
Russell, Schwarber, Heyward, Bryant, Rizzo, Hendricks. They got better last year?
If it was sarcasm, I'll leave this for Cubbie fans anyway. 8-)
You're right. Those guys all had "down" years last season...and the Cubs still won the division with 92 wins 8-)
8-)
Just wanted to get in on this.
8-)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 26, 2018, 04:01:59 PM
You're right. Those guys all had "down" years last season...and the Cubs still won the division with 92 wins 8-)
They're young...maybe last year is who they really are, and 2016 was their "career year".
Quote from: BrewCity83 on January 26, 2018, 04:14:09 PM
They're young...maybe last year is who they really are, and 2016 was their "career year".
I'll take winning the division and going to the Nlcs for the 3rd straight year any year.
Quote from: PTM on January 26, 2018, 03:39:06 PM
I don't think Morrow will be the closer, CJE will be. The bullpen was the Brewers strongest asset last season, which you claim to be volatile. Corey Knebel was a career replacement level player until last season where he outperformed his career stats by 277%. I don't think that's a guy I'm putting full faith behind.
Theo apparently disagrees.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/epstein-on-free-agency-morrow-core.html
Another example of how Cub fans are the most entertaining. One says young guys had down years, literally the next post says the young players on the Cubs always get better. Can't script this stuff any better.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on January 26, 2018, 04:14:09 PM
They're young...maybe last year is who they really are, and 2016 was their "career year".
On a serious note, I would bet that at least 4 out of the 6 guys I listed improve this year. I was just commenting on the statement that the young guys get better every year. Getting better every year is not a normal progression for a young guy.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 26, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
I still think the Cubs are most likely to win the division, but their 2 primary competitors have gotten markedly better and from what I have seen, the Cubs have not. I wouldn't just give them the division. They are much the same, at best (pending that starter), while the teams beneath them got better. The Brewers finished 6 games back and added about 9.5 WAR between Yelich and Cain. That's not quite how it works, but the division has tightened in my opinion. That's all I'm saying.
I think you are right.
Brewers went from a longshot at wildcard and no chance at the Division to a solid shot at wild card and a long shot for division.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 26, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Ok, so they replaced Arrieta with noone. That is even worse. Maybe they get Darvish or someone else, but they haven't yet. Lester is a year older and coming off a season where he didn't look like a TOR starter. Their rotation is worse, currently, and without doubt.
Morrow may be lights out. Cishek and co maybe better. But Davis was perfect is save opportunities. Bullpens are volatile. The Cubs are taking some calculated risks without a proven closer, could be a great pen, could be good or ok, could be bad. I know I would rather have Knebel.
The lineup issues are minor, but the leadoff spot is a question for sure. Jay was pretty solid last year, and I guess Almora will be given every chance this year and will likely be just fine. Zobrist may be fading into the end of his career, Heyward isn't a prize. But as you stated, they will score runs. They have 2 legit MVP caliber hitters in their order which fixes a lot of problems. Maybe this is the year Schwarber hits 40 HRs...and .250. But they haven't gotten any better offensively, as you pointed out may e they didn't need to, but the Brewers and Cards have improved.
I still think the Cubs are most likely to win the division, but their 2 primary competitors have gotten markedly better and from what I have seen, the Cubs have not. I wouldn't just give them the division. They are much the same, at best (pending that starter), while the teams beneath them got better. The Brewers finished 6 games back and added about 9.5 WAR between Yelich and Cain. That's not quite how it works, but the division has tightened in my opinion. That's all I'm saying.
Fair points. Brewers have gotten better but I'm of the opinion they over-performed last year and the Cubs under-performed. I could very easily be wrong - we'll see what happens. Nelson is a big loss so we'll see what kind of pitching they get back when they trade an OF or two. Can Anderson duplicate last season?
As for the Cubs rotation, assuming the Cubs sign one of those three I mentioned, it will be considerably better than last year, health permitting. Quintana for a full year is a big deal. Eddie Butler made 13 starts for the Cubs last year. Brett Anderson made a handful of horrendous starts. Lackey was pretty bad as well although solid in the 2nd half. Lester is an X factor.
Agree 100% that bullpens are volatile. I would not be stunned if the Cubs bullpen was lights out or if there were serious issues. No arguing that Knebel was fantastic last year.
As for the Cubs lineup, I think Almora leads off against LHP as he kills lefties. One main question will be Zobrist, as you mentioned. He had a short offseason and was hurt last year. We'll find out if he's over the hill or if there's some life left in the bat as he plays less and against good matchups. I can see him leading off against RHP. Obviously nothing can be expected from Heyward - just have to hope for the best and that Chili Davis is good for him. The group of position players is young and deep so I feel pretty good about them overall.
Quote from: Jockey on January 26, 2018, 04:31:03 PM
On a serious note, I would bet that at least 4 out of the 6 guys I listed improve this year. I was just commenting on the statement that the young guys get better every year. Getting better every year is not a normal progression for a young guy.
This is right - development isn't always linear.
Happ was very productive last year but there were also some red flags so does he get better or have a sophomore slump where he needs to adjust?
The expectations place on Schwarber last year after he missed a full year of development were unrealistic. However, I'm extremely high on him this year.
Assuming this is the order, I love the Cubs 2 - 5 of Bryant, Rizzo, Contreras, and Schwarber. Between Heyward, Almora, Baez, Happ, Zobrist, and Russell, I feel pretty confident they'll have a good offensive team.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 26, 2018, 05:48:14 PM
Assuming this is the order, I love the Cubs 2 - 5 of Bryant, Rizzo, Contreras, and Schwarber.
I'm not gonna argue that the Brewers lineup is better, but is a 2-5 of Yelich, Braun (healthy 2016-style Braun), Shaw, and Thames really that far behind?
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 26, 2018, 04:22:24 PM
Another example of how Cub fans are the most entertaining. One says young guys had down years, literally the next post says the young players on the Cubs always get better. Can't script this stuff any better.
Statistical down years does not equal not improving. Strikeouts were way down. So we're homeruns and rbis but that could be chalked with an inconsistent leadoff spot injuries happening left right and center. If it hadn't been for a hitting slump and a terrible bullpen cubs might have grabbed 2 rings in a row.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on January 26, 2018, 06:38:52 PM
Statistical down years does not equal not improving. Strikeouts were way down. So we're homeruns and rbis but that could be chalked with an inconsistent leadoff spot injuries happening left right and center. If it hadn't been for a hitting slump and a terrible bullpen cubs might have grabbed 2 rings in a row.
Ok. Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but Russell's K rate went up. Schwarber's K rate went up. Baez's K rate went up. Those were the first 3 I checked. Not sure where strikeouts were down.
As far as the inconsistent leadoff spot, well that seems to be the same as last year, which was my point.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on January 26, 2018, 06:38:52 PM
Statistical down years does not equal not improving.
Actually a lot (most?) of the time that's EXACTLY what it means.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on January 26, 2018, 06:09:47 PM
I'm not gonna argue that the Brewers lineup is better, but is a 2-5 of Yelich, Braun (healthy 2016-style Braun), Shaw, and Thames really that far behind?
Unfortunately, yes, I think it is. Bryant-Rizzo are probably the best back-to-back hitters in baseball, and I could probably come up with at least another 7-10 combos that are better than Yelich-Braun. Its tough to even make an educated guess on what Shaw will do. Fangraphs has Shaw and Contreras projected for reasonably similar numbers - I personally trust Contreras's track record more than Shaw's but a good debate can be had there. Same with Schwarber vs Thames, but I think its tough to argue that Schwarber's arrow is pointing up, and I think Thames best baseball in the majors is behind him.
None of what the Brewers did means anything unless they also acquire two top-notch starters.
If they do that, then they are legit contenders.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on January 27, 2018, 12:46:51 PM
None of what the Brewers did means anything unless they also acquire two top-notch starters.
If they do that, then they are legit contenders.
Maybe. Maybe not. If they trade Santana and prospects for Archer a staff of Archer, (eventually, sounds like he's about 3 weeks ahead of schedule in his rehab) Nelson, Anderson, Chacin, Davies is pretty solid. And then you might have Hader moving into a starting role and Woodruff who showed a lot of promise down the stretch of last year. Suter and Garra provide some depth.
In a hypothetical deep Brewers playoff run, I don't think it'll be on the back of the same pitchers that get them through the regular season. The price to acquire top pitchers for any length of time is so extreme, I think its more likely that the Brewers add a solid 2-3 type in the offseason, and just try to hang around. If the Crew are in the wildcard lead in July, and esp if they're within striking distance for the division, then they make a move for a rental for the playoffs ala CC.
So rather than looking at Archer or Fulmer, I think more likely scenarios would be to trade for someone like Duffy, or to sign Cobb, Lynn (2018) or Estrada, Morton (2019) in the offseason. Then, provided they're pitching well and their team isn't contending, you could make a deadline move for someone like Garrett Richards (2018) or Bumgarner (2019).
Quote from: wadesworld on January 27, 2018, 02:23:50 PM
Maybe. Maybe not. If they trade Santana and prospects for Archer a staff of Archer, (eventually, sounds like he's about 3 weeks ahead of schedule in his rehab) Nelson, Anderson, Chacin, Davies is pretty solid. And then you might have Hader moving into a starting role and Woodruff who showed a lot of promise down the stretch of last year. Suter and Garra provide some depth.
If that was enough for Archer he'd be a Brewer already.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 27, 2018, 06:45:13 PM
If that was enough for Archer he'd be a Brewer already.
Not from what I've seen.
I think we can safely trade Broxton, but I'm perfectly content to "make it work" with Braun and Santana on the roster to start the year. All it takes is an AJ Pollock type injury and you'll have suitors. Don't want to get too far into the year and stress your rotation into playing time they're not suited for, but a month or so won't kill anyone
So long, Chief Wahoo.
The Cleveland Indians will stop using the Chief Wahoo logo on their uniforms beginning in 2019, according to Major League Baseball, which said the popular symbol was no longer appropriate for use on the field.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/sports/baseball/cleveland-indians-chief-wahoo-logo.html
Quote from: Pakuni on January 29, 2018, 11:38:08 AM
So long, Chief Wahoo.
The Cleveland Indians will stop using the Chief Wahoo logo on their uniforms beginning in 2019, according to Major League Baseball, which said the popular symbol was no longer appropriate for use on the field.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/sports/baseball/cleveland-indians-chief-wahoo-logo.html
"Consumers will still be able to purchase items with the logo on them at the team's souvenir shops in the stadium and at retail outlets in the northern Ohio market, but those items will not be available for sale on M.L.B.'s website."
Hey we acknowledge this logo isn't appropriate. But we can still profit off it right???
Quote from: #bansultan on January 29, 2018, 11:48:04 AM
"Consumers will still be able to purchase items with the logo on them at the team's souvenir shops in the stadium and at retail outlets in the northern Ohio market, but those items will not be available for sale on M.L.B.'s website."
Hey we acknowledge this logo isn't appropriate. But we can still profit off it right???
Baby steps?
Quote from: Pakuni on January 29, 2018, 11:54:36 AM
Baby steps?
I know. I know.
I still think they are missing a great opportunity to return the team to its historical roots. Cleveland Spiders.
My understanding is if they don't use it in commerce, anyone could legally then take the logo and profit of it.
From Ken Rosenthal below. I maintain the only way the Brewers can add someone like an Archer or Fulmer is to complete wipe out their system and overpay. I would think someone like Danny Salazar might be a more realistic trade target.
Milwaukee Brewers right fielder Domingo Santana hit 30 home runs and produced an .875 OPS last season. He is only 25, and under club control for the next four seasons. Yet, his trade value might not be all that it appears.
One rival executive dismissed Santana as a "bad defender," while another said he is "not a winning player." Any criticism of Santana's defense is valid, based on the advanced metrics. But the assessment of Santana as "not a winning player" is probably too harsh. True, his strikeout rate rose in the final two months of last season, and, ideally, he would put more balls in the air. But Brewers people describe Santana as bright and mature, someone who wants to be good.
As I reported on Friday, the Brewers do not necessarily view Santana as the odd man out, believing he could team with Cain and Christian Yelich to form one of the best outfields in baseball. Center fielder Brett Phillips, under club control for the next six seasons, also could be the centerpiece of a trade for a starting pitcher.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2018, 01:47:48 PM
One rival executive dismissed Santana as a "bad defender," while another said he is "not a winning player." Any criticism of Santana's defense is valid, based on the advanced metrics. But the assessment of Santana as "not a winning player" is probably too harsh. True, his strikeout rate rose in the final two months of last season, and, ideally, he would put more balls in the air. But Brewers people describe Santana as bright and mature, someone who wants to be good.
"not a winning player" lol
Sounds like something you'd state anonymously to lower his trade value for your team.
You won't get any disagreement from me or anyone else that he's a horrid defender, though.
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 29, 2018, 02:20:46 PM
"not a winning player" lol
Sounds like something you'd state anonymously to lower his trade value for your team.
You won't get any disagreement from me or anyone else that he's a horrid defender, though.
Exactly. Anybody reporting that his sources tell him a player, especially a baseball player, isn't a "winning player" doesn't have sources.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 29, 2018, 05:55:16 PM
Exactly. Anybody reporting that his sources tell him a player, especially a baseball player, isn't a "winning player" doesn't have sources.
Are you saying you don't believe Ken Rosenthal has MLB sources? That would be pretty darn ignorant as he is widely regarded as the best connected and most reliable reporter in the MLB landscape.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 29, 2018, 11:32:12 PM
Are you saying you don't believe Ken Rosenthal has MLB sources? That would be pretty darn ignorant as he is widely regarded as the best connected and most reliable reporter in the MLB landscape.
On this subject? No. If you can't find a better source than a guy saying a major player on one of, if not THE, surprise team in the MLB "isn't a winning player" then you don't have a source. It's one of the dumbest statements about a player. Professional athletes don't accidentally get to where they are.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 29, 2018, 11:37:34 PM
On this subject? No. If you can't find a better source than a guy saying a major player on one of, if not THE, surprise team in the MLB "isn't a winning player" then you don't have a source. It's one of the dumbest statements about a player. Professional athletes don't accidentally get to where they are.
So, what then, he made it up?
I am not surprised at all a GM or scout would say something along those lines. Others may disagree, but I can completely buy someone saying it.
Heck the Brewers have cut Chris Carter and given away Kris Davis recently as all HR, high K, poor defense guys in the last few years.
Until now, I never bothered looking at Domingo's advanced metrics. Maybe 'winning baseball player'is a stupid thing to say, but it isn't hard to see why the market maybe less than expected for him. He's the classic player most GM's are avoiding these days.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 29, 2018, 11:47:31 PM
So, what then, he made it up?
I am not surprised at all a GM or scout would say something along those lines. Others may disagree, but I can completely buy someone saying it.
Heck the Brewers have cut Chris Carter and given away Kris Davis recently as all HR, high K, poor defense guys in the last few years.
Comparing Santana (.278 last year) to Carter is a bit disingenuous. And I think most would agree that giving away Khris Davis, for his low average, is one of the few mistakes Stearns has made assessing his own talent.
For the record, I'm not contesting that a GM said that. I'm sure they did. It's just a stupid hear-say quote to publish when it's backed by absolutely nothing. This is like the anonymous quotes questioning how much someone loves football right before the draft.
For some GMs, a guy who "isn't a winning player" might simply mean that he's a guy who puts in a ton of time and effort into one aspect of the game (i.e. hitting) but may be less interested in putting in the effort to improve his game in other areas (i.e. fielding).
Santana is also a "Three True Outcomes" hitter. He finished 4th in the NL with 46.3% of his PA resulting in a walk, K or HR (47.7% for his career). I'm sure there are plenty of GMs who don't view guys like that as "winning players."
Quote from: GB Warrior on January 30, 2018, 11:20:01 AM
Comparing Santana (.278 last year) to Carter is a bit disingenuous. And I think most would agree that giving away Khris Davis, for his low average, is one of the few mistakes Stearns has made assessing his own talent.
For the record, I'm not contesting that a GM said that. I'm sure they did. It's just a stupid hear-say quote to publish when it's backed by absolutely nothing. This is like the anonymous quotes questioning how much someone loves football right before the draft.
Fair enough and I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison. It was just more the style of player with a high K rate, hits dingers and is a defensive liability.
Milwaukee pulling a Nashville. I don't think this strategy has ever worked for any team that has tried it.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/brewers-try-to-keep-cubs-fans-out-of-miller-park-this-season-473426403.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_CHBrand
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on February 09, 2018, 08:38:41 PM
Milwaukee pulling a Nashville. I don't think this strategy has ever worked for any team that has tried it.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/brewers-try-to-keep-cubs-fans-out-of-miller-park-this-season-473426403.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_CHBrand
It's very cute.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on February 09, 2018, 08:38:41 PM
Milwaukee pulling a Nashville. I don't think this strategy has ever worked for any team that has tried it.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/brewers-try-to-keep-cubs-fans-out-of-miller-park-this-season-473426403.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_CHBrand
I'm more concerned about keeping Illinois drivers off our roads. At least while I'm on the roads.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on February 09, 2018, 08:38:41 PM
Milwaukee pulling a Nashville. I don't think this strategy has ever worked for any team that has tried it.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/brewers-try-to-keep-cubs-fans-out-of-miller-park-this-season-473426403.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_CHBrand
Remember when DePaul tried this?
Quote from: wadesworld on February 09, 2018, 10:10:29 PM
I'm more concerned about keeping Illinois drivers off our roads. At least while I'm on the roads.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/costs-of-wisconsin-dui-drunk-driving-families-forced-into-advocacy/
Wisconsin drivers are the ones that should concern you.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 09, 2018, 11:25:31 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/costs-of-wisconsin-dui-drunk-driving-families-forced-into-advocacy/
Wisconsin drivers are the ones that should concern you.
I'm concerned about drunk drivers from any state.
I'm concerned about Illinois drivers.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 09, 2018, 11:35:56 PM
I'm concerned about drunk drivers from any state.
I'm concerned about Illinois drivers.
Dumb.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 09, 2018, 11:55:26 PM
Dumb.
If wades wants to have a narrow, parochial view, he can, but it says more about him than drivers from Illinois. Exceeding 55 can be quite scary for some.
I find Illinois drivers way better than Wisconsin drivers. They know how to stick with the pace.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 10, 2018, 05:57:52 AM
I find Illinois drivers way better than Wisconsin drivers. They know how to stick with the pace.
Wisconsin drivers are slower than this offseason! Ok well... that's not true.
So is Darvish waiting for a better offer? Or trying to play up the collusion angle for the Union by not signing? I have to think once he signs, the dominoes will fall.
Darvish likely waitin' on Cousins and Rodgers signin' furst, hey?
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 10, 2018, 12:15:25 AM
If wades wants to have a narrow, parochial view, he can, but it says more about him than drivers from Illinois. Exceeding 55 can be quite scary for some.
Most speed limits in Wiscosnin are 70 so I have no issue going over 55.
Yu to Cubs. 126/6. Up to 150 with incentives
Dodgers and Brewers offered 6 too
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 10, 2018, 02:19:58 PM
Yu to Cubs. 126/6. Up to 150 with incentives
Dodgers and Brewers offered 6 too
One more year than I thought he'd get but really like the AAV in regards to the luxury tax. Got some reading to do.
That Darvish contract is certainly going to come back to haunt the Cubs on the back end, yuck.
Quote from: MUDish on February 10, 2018, 02:23:10 PM
That Darvish contract is certainly going to come back to haunt the Cubs on the back end, yuck.
Like most long-term pitching contracts.
You take that contract all day, everyday for $21 million a year.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 02:36:47 PM
Like most long-term pitching contracts.
You take that contract all day, everyday for $21 million a year.
Wrong side of 30.
No trade clause.
Six Years.
History of injuries.
Clubhouse issues.
You can have that deal any day of the week and twice on Sunday. There's no other way to describe it, 6 years is wayyyy too long for Darvish. That's going to be a Heyward type deal for the Cubs again.
For what its worth, traderumors had suggested 160/6 earlier this winter, so its not bad relative to the projection. Until the effect of the luxury tax really kicks in, and the way this offseason has gone, its so so hard to judge this year's deals. Is this offseason the start of a trend? If so, this is a bad deal, maybe historically so. If not, then its probably fine for a big market team like the Cubs.
Will be interesting to see how this impacts the rest of the market, too. Puts a nine figure deal for Arrieta in real doubt. He'd absolutely have to extract a 5th year to get it now.
Just glad it wasn't the Brewers giving him this deal.
Quote from: MUDish on February 10, 2018, 02:52:10 PM
Wrong side of 30.
No trade clause.
Six Years.
History of injuries.
Clubhouse issues.
You can have that deal any day of the week and twice on Sunday. There's no other way to describe it, 6 years is wayyyy too long for Darvish. That's going to be a Heyward type deal for the Cubs again.
The Cubs are right in their window. It makes all the sense in the world.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 10, 2018, 03:13:34 PM
Just glad it wasn't the Brewers giving him this deal.
Looking forward to the Brewers signing Arrieta for 5 years.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 03:36:23 PM
Looking forward to the Brewers signing Arrieta for 5 years.
As long as he continues his PED use I'm all in on that. Hopefully he brings enough to share with Braun to get some production out of him again.
Darvish has 19.0 fWAR in 832.1 IP since debut in 2012. In that span, Darvish's 3.7 WAR per 162 innings is seventh best in MLB behind Kershaw, Sale, Kluber, Scherzer, Strasburg and Price.
He made 31 starts last year, was healthy and worth 4 WAR. No signs of diminished velocity and will be in the NL.
This also improves the Cubs bullpen and starting pitching depth as Montgomery is not needed in the rotation.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 10, 2018, 03:42:26 PM
As long as he continues his PED use I'm all in on that. Hopefully he brings enough to share with Braun to get some production out of him again.
(http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Conan-OBrien-Pencil-Tap-Facepalm-Reaction-To-The-News.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 03:35:18 PM
The Cubs are right in their window. It makes all the sense in the world.
Let's talk again in 4 years on this deal.
Quote from: MUDish on February 10, 2018, 04:14:51 PM
Let's talk again in 4 years on this deal.
Every long-term deal for a pitcher is inherently risky. I'd prefer 5 years, but again, the AAV is very good in terms of what the team needed.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 10, 2018, 12:15:25 AM
If wades wants to have a narrow, parochial view, he can, but it says more about him than drivers from Illinois. Exceeding 55 can be quite scary for some.
As someone who has lived in Wisconsin and Illinois and drives between the two very frequently. Illinois drivers are by far better then Wisconsin. Most wisconsinites have yet to figure out left is pass not camp and zipper merging.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 10, 2018, 03:42:26 PM
As long as he continues his PED use I'm all in on that. Hopefully he brings enough to share with Braun to get some production out of him again.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/705/640/673.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 03:35:18 PM
The Cubs are right in their window. It makes all the sense in the world.
And that's really the deal, isn't it?
If Darvish helps the Cubs win one championship but the other 5 years end up being garbage, it will have been worth to the Cubs.
Epstein is a smart guy. I'm sure he is well aware that this contract is unlikely to be a good one for the Cubs down the line.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on February 10, 2018, 04:50:32 PM
As someone who has lived in Wisconsin and Illinois and drives between the two very frequently. Illinois drivers are by far better then Wisconsin. Most wisconsinites have yet to figure out left is pass not camp and zipper merging.
As a lifelong Wisconsinite, I totally agree.
It is hard to find a time day or night when there is not a car camped in the center lane at 55 mph, because they are scared of people merging onto the highway.
When I am in the middle lane on the tollway where the speed limit is 55, I am the slow guy going 78.
Quote from: MU82 on February 10, 2018, 05:05:50 PM
And that's really the deal, isn't it?
If Darvish helps the Cubs win one championship but the other 5 years end up being garbage, it will have been worth to the Cubs.
Epstein is a smart guy. I'm sure he is well aware that this contract is unlikely to be a good one for the Cubs down the line.
When it comes down to it, absolutely.
Epstein made the decision to not trade any of the young core to bring in a starter, which I think was the right decision.
Most of the offensive core is under contract through 2021. In terms of the rotation, all four starters except for Darvish are under contract through 2020. That gives the organization time to develop cheap starting pitching, which has been their biggest failure.
These guys understand risk and know what they're doing. Darvish wasn't a consideration until they determined his market was suppressed and teams like LA and NY we're going to stay under the luxury tax. He's risky but can be dominant.
There has been a ton written on how difficult it is to try put a $ value on WAR. But pulling from a great fangraphs article - (https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-recent-history-of-free-agent-pricing/) - it was about $10.5M per 1.0 WAR in 2017. If you figure Darvish hits some of his incentives and gets the deal to about $130Mish, thats 12-13 WAR over the life of the deal, or about 2.25 per year. Considering that Darvish was good for 3.5 WAR last year and 2.6 WAR in his recovery shortened 2016, it looks good for the Cubs to recover value from this deal, even if he's a less than 2.0 WAR player in the last two years of the deal. That combined with the Cubs open window, need for a top 3 starter and ability to eat a big contract if necessary probably makes this a fine deal. Again, the most likely factor to flip that (after injury) is if the luxury tax depresses free agent deals moving forward.
Enjoy.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=darviyu01&t=p&year=0&post=1
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 10, 2018, 06:51:17 PM
Enjoy.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=darviyu01&t=p&year=0&post=1
Thanks?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 07:03:14 PM
Thanks?
He's pointing out that he's terrible in relief, in the World Series.
Quote from: PTM on February 10, 2018, 07:47:03 PM
He's pointing out that he's terrible in relief, in the World Series.
Ah. Thanks.
Quote from: PTM on February 10, 2018, 07:47:03 PM
He's pointing out that he's terrible in relief, in the World Series.
Well, the problem is those outongs weren't relief. They just looked like it because he couldn't get out of the 2nd inning.
For contrast
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=arrieja01&t=p&year=0&post=1
Not sure how Darvish is an upgrade.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 10, 2018, 08:42:00 PM
Well, the problem is those outongs weren't relief. They just looked like it because he couldn't get out of the 2nd inning.
For contrast
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=arrieja01&t=p&year=0&post=1
Not sure how Darvish is an upgrade.
You're putting a lot of stock into those two performances?
The industry as a whole considers him an upgrade.
The Cubs lack of interest in Arrieta has hurt his market. Who would know him better?
Quote from: PTM on February 10, 2018, 07:47:03 PM
He's pointing out that he's terrible in relief, in the World Series.
When he was tipping pitches.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 08:47:33 PM
You're putting a lot of stock into those two performances?
The industry as a whole considers him an upgrade.
The Cubs lack of interest in Arrieta has hurt his market. Who would know him better?
If I my goal was winning a World Series, I would put some stock in those performances. In 100% of his appearances in the World Series, he was a BP pitcher.
I can't lie, I do find the Cubs lack of interest in Arrieta a bit puzzling as he has been their best pitcher in well, maybe ever, certainly in the last 20 years and he doesn't get the respect of Carlos Zambrano from cub fans.
The who know him better thing is ridiculous. For 100 different reasons, number 1 probably being Scott Boras.
Quote from: MUBurrow on February 10, 2018, 08:59:47 PM
When he was tipping pitches.
Typically not a good trait in a pitcher. Especially when he can't correct it.
And it was more than that. Watch thise outings. His breaking stuff was completely lacking in depth and break.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 10, 2018, 09:03:08 PM
If I my goal was winning a World Series, I would put some stock in those performances. In 100% of his appearances in the World Series, he was a BP pitcher.
I can't lie, I do find the Cubs lack of interest in Arrieta a bit puzzling as he has been their best pitcher in well, maybe ever, certainly in the last 20 years and he doesn't get the respect of Carlos Zambrano from cub fans.
The who know him better thing is ridiculous. For 100 different reasons, number 1 probably being Scott Boras.
Number 1 being PEDs. Number 2 being Scott Boras.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 10, 2018, 09:03:08 PM
If I my goal was winning a World Series, I would put some stock in those performances. In 100% of his appearances in the World Series, he was a BP pitcher.
I can't lie, I do find the Cubs lack of interest in Arrieta a bit puzzling as he has been their best pitcher in well, maybe ever, certainly in the last 20 years and he doesn't get the respect of Carlos Zambrano from cub fans.
The who know him better thing is ridiculous. For 100 different reasons, number 1 probably being Scott Boras.
Putting a ton of stock into two outings where he was likely tipping pitches seems, well, dumb.
The "know him better" argument is not close to being ridiculous.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 10, 2018, 09:35:43 PM
Number 1 being PEDs. Number 2 being Scott Boras.
I haven't heard this from you before. Please, tell me more.
Quote from: MUBurrow on February 10, 2018, 05:58:07 PM
There has been a ton written on how difficult it is to try put a $ value on WAR. But pulling from a great fangraphs article - (https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-recent-history-of-free-agent-pricing/) - it was about $10.5M per 1.0 WAR in 2017. If you figure Darvish hits some of his incentives and gets the deal to about $130Mish, thats 12-13 WAR over the life of the deal, or about 2.25 per year. Considering that Darvish was good for 3.5 WAR last year and 2.6 WAR in his recovery shortened 2016, it looks good for the Cubs to recover value from this deal, even if he's a less than 2.0 WAR player in the last two years of the deal. That combined with the Cubs open window, need for a top 3 starter and ability to eat a big contract if necessary probably makes this a fine deal. Again, the most likely factor to flip that (after injury) is if the luxury tax depresses free agent deals moving forward.
WAR, huh, yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing!
WAR, huh, yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing!
Say it again ...
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 09:37:51 PM
Putting a ton of stock into two outings where he was likely tipping pitches seems, well, dumb.
The "know him better" argument is not close to being ridiculous.
Hmm well then, I wonder what the Dodgers and Rangers know about Darvish.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 10, 2018, 10:33:42 PM
Hmm well then, I wonder what the Dodgers and Rangers know about Darvish.
Well the Rangers wanted him back but didn't have the money to spend and according to Jon Heyman the Dodgers had a 6 year offer for him contingent of if they could move Kemp. So I guess they know he's a good pitcher.
Anything else?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 12:29:01 AM
Well the Rangers wanted him back but didn't have the money to spend and according to Jon Heyman the Dodgers had a 6 year offer for him contingent of if they could move Kemp. So I guess they know he's a good pitcher.
Anything else?
Dodgers offered 6 years at 100.
Cubs had reportedly gone to 4 - 110 on Arrieta earlier this winter.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 11, 2018, 08:14:44 AM
Dodgers offered 6 years at 100.
Cubs had reportedly gone to 4 - 110 on Arrieta earlier this winter.
Dodgers couldn't offer more. To offer more they would have had to move money to avoid the lux tax. Same situation as the Yankees.
The Cubs got a bargain just because those teams weren't there to drive up the price.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 11, 2018, 09:07:57 AM
Dodgers couldn't offer more. To offer more they would have had to move money to avoid the lux tax. Same situation as the Yankees.
The Cubs got a bargain just because those teams weren't there to drive up the price.
The Dodgers have been over the tax threshold 5 straight years. It is nothing more than a convenient excuse.
And the reported 16.67 AAV would have put them over the top threshold anyways.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 11, 2018, 10:32:32 AM
The Dodgers have been over the tax threshold 5 straight years. It is nothing more than a convenient excuse.
And the reported 16.67 AAV would have put them over the top threshold anyways.
With the repeater penalties, its incredibly valuable to get under the tax, even for just one year. And I would imagine that if they signed Darvish on the 16.67 AAV deal, they would've packaged Kemp with the prospects necessary get out from under the two years left at 18 per.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 11, 2018, 08:14:44 AM
Dodgers offered 6 years at 100.
Cubs had reportedly gone to 4 - 110 on Arrieta earlier this winter.
But that's the point - they did want him back.
And they absolutely want to remain under the tax this year to reset the penalties. Most of those deals that put them over the tax weren't Friedman's doing.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 10:47:58 AM
But that's the point - they did want him back.
And they absolutely want to remain under the tax this year to reset the penalties. Most of those deals that put them over the tax weren't Friedman's doing.
But clearly they didn't want him back badly. 6/100 is a non offer for what he had on the table. Obviously they didn't want him back as bad as the Cubs. Darvish made it clear he wanted to be back with LA. They didn't make him a priority. They must know something.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 11, 2018, 11:28:41 AM
But clearly they didn't want him back badly. 6/100 is a non offer for what he had on the table. Obviously they didn't want him back as bad as the Cubs. Darvish made it clear he wanted to be back with LA. They didn't make him a priority. They must know something.
This is all sorts of dumb.
$21M for an above average pitcher whose "similar pitchers" (according to Baseball Reference) are Josh Johnson, Garret Cole, Tanner Roark, Sonny Gray and Julio Teheran.
Last season: 10-12, 3.86 ERA (26th in MLB), 1.163 WHIP (16th in MLB).
Only had 200 IP once in career. Postseason disaster.
What an incredible bargain!
Plus, my sources tell me he's a big PED guy (of course, my sources are wades).
Having said all that ... sure, if I were Theo, I'd have spent $126 of Ricketts' money to sign him, too.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 11:40:01 AM
This is all sorts of dumb.
Yeah. It really is. Thank you for proving my point. The "they know him" logic is completely flawed and ignores many many other factors that play into these decisions. You guys have brought up some and there are still more.
I'm sure all the stuff the cubs know about Arrieta makes your "all kinds of dumb" claim completely different though.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 11:40:01 AM
This is all sorts of dumb.
I think you're forgetting buck likes to play the contranian to the extreme.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 11, 2018, 11:47:31 AM
Yeah. It really is. Thank you for proving my point. The "they know him" logic is completely flawed and ignores many many other factors that play into these decisions. You guys have brought up some and there are still more.
I'm sure all the stuff the cubs know about Arrieta makes your "all kinds of dumb" claim completely different though.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-cubs-might-be-a-problem-for-jake-arrieta/
Quote from: MU82 on February 11, 2018, 11:43:15 AM
$21M for an above average pitcher whose "similar pitchers" (according to Baseball Reference) are Josh Johnson, Garret Cole, Tanner Roark, Sonny Gray and Julio Teheran.
Last season: 10-12, 3.86 ERA (26th in MLB), 1.163 WHIP (16th in MLB).
Only had 200 IP once in career. Postseason disaster.
What an incredible bargain!
Plus, my sources tell me he's a big PED guy (of course, my sources are wades).
Having said all that ... sure, if I were Theo, I'd have spent $126 of Ricketts' money to sign him, too.
Darvish has 19.0 fWAR in 832.1 IP since debut in 2012. In that span, Darvish's 3.7 WAR per 162 innings is seventh best in MLB behind Kershaw, Sale, Kluber, Scherzer, Strasburg and Price.
Quote from: PTM on February 11, 2018, 12:36:25 PM
I think you're forgetting buck likes to play the contranian to the extreme.
Sure. It would help if his logic was, well, logical.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 12:56:52 PM
Darvish has 19.0 fWAR in 832.1 IP since debut in 2012. In that span, Darvish's 3.7 WAR per 162 innings is seventh best in MLB behind Kershaw, Sale, Kluber, Scherzer, Strasburg and Price.
Okey dokey.
Also oft-injured, can't pitch 200 innings and sucks in the postseason.
Again, a
bargain!
And again, I'd have signed him, too.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 12:59:15 PM
Sure. It would help if his logic was, well, logical.
It's good too see the bad side of the deal too. Regardless of logic.
If Darvish is a solid 2 for 3 seasons, l'll be delighted. Darvish also has no trade protection, which should be noted, huge part of this deal.
Quote from: MU82 on February 11, 2018, 11:43:15 AM
$21M for an above average pitcher whose "similar pitchers" (according to Baseball Reference) are Josh Johnson, Garret Cole, Tanner Roark, Sonny Gray and Julio Teheran.
Last season: 10-12, 3.86 ERA (26th in MLB), 1.163 WHIP (16th in MLB).
Only had 200 IP once in career. Postseason disaster.
What an incredible bargain!
Plus, my sources tell me he's a big PED guy (of course, my sources are wades).
Having said all that ... sure, if I were Theo, I'd have spent $126 of Ricketts' money to sign him, too.
Hmm, I'm going to have to change my Scoop password if someone from my username was telling you Yu is on PEDs. Would I be surprised if he was? Not in the least bit. When Dee Gordon was suspended for PED use that was the last time I will ever be surprised to find out any professional athlete uses PEDs. But I can't say Yu being a clear cut PED user like the 3 Cubs I've said undoubtedly have used PEDs has ever crossed my mind.
Then again, the 20-some year old who threw 100 MPH routinely, was constantly facing nagging injuries, and came onto the scene at the height of anabolic steroid use when 95% of MLB players were using PEDs had a baby face and threw this pitch called a curveball that nobody else ever threw, so of course he wasn't using PEDs. And the guy who went from hitting 8 home runs to 33 and then all the way up to 66 home runs in a season couldn't speak English, so how could he get steroids? And the pitcher who was absolutely horrendous until his youthful 28 year old season and in one offseason became one of the best pitchers in baseball just needed Jesus Bosio (who the Cubs just fired) to resurrect his career from the dead.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 11, 2018, 11:47:31 AM
Yeah. It really is. Thank you for proving my point. The "they know him" logic is completely flawed and ignores many many other factors that play into these decisions. You guys have brought up some and there are still more.
I'm sure all the stuff the cubs know about Arrieta makes your "all kinds of dumb" claim completely different though.
You're forgetting something. You're arguing with Cubs fans. The Cubs have never made a bad move in the history of the franchise. They're the greatest baseball franchise ever created. If they sign someone whose former team no longer wanted them, it's a great bargain move! If they let someone walk that another team signs up, that new team got screwed, the Cubs know exactly what that person was and he totally isn't worth it!
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 12:54:51 PM
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-cubs-might-be-a-problem-for-jake-arrieta/
Even that points out that Scott Boras is a likely reason. They Cubs made several overtures to resign Arrieta. With a reported 4-110 offer as recently as January. Doesn't seem like they know he is a time bomb. Seems like they definitely had him on their list of targets but found a deal they like better.
The narrative of the Cubs know him and don't want him back has been sung all offseason. It is ridiculous. You don't offer a guy 27 mil a season (reported by Nightengale btw) if you don't want him. They got a deal with a similar pitcher for significantly less. That doesn't necessarily speak to which guy they preferred, but it says a lot about which deal they preferred.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 12:59:15 PM
Sure. It would help if his logic was, well, logical.
Wow. You still.missed it huh. I wasn't trying to be logical. I was applying the same story you made with Arrieta to Darvish. That's why it made no sense.
That line of thinking is full of holes.
By the way, what is this mystery information the Cubs have on him? The only things I can think it would be are if they know wades was right and he is on roids and is a time bomb that way, or he is a complete douche and ruins the clubhouse.
My guess is that he was simply looking for too much money.
The signing in the short term is fine. My issue is if you're the Cubs, you're rolling out in 2019 almost $50 mil in total to Lester and Darvish. We saw the decline of Lester start last year and we'll see how Darvish does. The Quintana trade was so key to the Cubs future, as their system has next to nothing in starters coming soon. The Cubs are committed to these 5 starters moving forward. They have financial flexibility to sign a position player next winter, but have limited themselves in the FA pitching market for 2019.
The back end of the Darvish deal is concerning, years 5&6, with the no trade clause is gross, even at a relatively good $21 mil per.
Quote from: MUDish on February 11, 2018, 07:22:22 PM
The signing in the short term is fine. My issue is if you're the Cubs, you're rolling out in 2019 almost $50 mil in total to Lester and Darvish. We saw the decline of Lester start last year and we'll see how Darvish does. The Quintana trade was so key to the Cubs future, as their system has next to nothing in starters coming soon. The Cubs are committed to these 5 starters moving forward. They have financial flexibility to sign a position player next winter, but have limited themselves in the FA pitching market for 2019.
The back end of the Darvish deal is concerning, years 5&6, with the no trade clause is gross, even at a relatively good $21 mil per.
Darvish has no trade protection.
Before finalizing with Yu, the Cubs offered Arrieta the same 6/$126 that Yu got, however, he turned it down.
Two years ago, Jake also turned down the cubs 4yr/$88mil offer than is actually a higher AAV than what Yu just got.
Quote from: MUDish on February 11, 2018, 07:22:22 PM
The signing in the short term is fine. My issue is if you're the Cubs, you're rolling out in 2019 almost $50 mil in total to Lester and Darvish. We saw the decline of Lester start last year and we'll see how Darvish does. The Quintana trade was so key to the Cubs future, as their system has next to nothing in starters coming soon. The Cubs are committed to these 5 starters moving forward. They have financial flexibility to sign a position player next winter, but have limited themselves in the FA pitching market for 2019.
The back end of the Darvish deal is concerning, years 5&6, with the no trade clause is gross, even at a relatively good $21 mil per.
The Cubs have the TV money coming in 2019 as well. Not saying the bottom line doesn't matter but they should have some extra money to work with. By all accounts they are trying to stay under the lux tax this year so they can exceed it with next season's big free agent class.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 12, 2018, 08:35:32 AM
Before finalizing with Yu, the Cubs offered Arrieta the same 6/$126 that Yu got, however, he turned it down.
Two years ago, Jake also turned down the cubs 4yr/$88mil offer than is actually a higher AAV than what Yu just got.
Saw that report. Weird.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 08:50:15 AM
Saw that report. Weird.
I think Boras is promising that he will get him a larger deal. Same for all of his clients.
Boras is overplaying his hand on both Arrieta and JDM, hoping this really blows up in his face when Arrieta ends up on a rebuilding Phillies roster for something like $95m/5yr.
Quote from: PTM on February 12, 2018, 09:11:55 AM
Boras is overplaying his hand on both Arrieta and JDM, hoping this really blows up in his face when Arrieta ends up on a rebuilding Phillies roster for something like $95m/5yr.
And Hosmer, and Moose and Holland...
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 12, 2018, 09:03:15 AM
I think Boras is promising that he will get him a larger deal. Same for all of his clients.
Not weird he turned it down, weird that the Cubs offered. VB indicated the Cubs knew better and didn't have interest.
According to Jerry Crasnick, Darvish has an opt-out clause after 2 seasons. If he pitches well, he could hit the open market by 2020. If he pitches poorly, the Cubs will have another ugly, long-term contract on the books. When you're in the midst of your championship window, you have to take calculated risks. I have no issue with the signing.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 12, 2018, 09:22:14 AM
According to Jerry Crasnick, Darvish has an opt-out clause after 2 seasons. If he pitches well, he could hit the open market by 2020. If he pitches poorly, the Cubs will have another ugly, long-term contract on the books. When you're in the midst of your championship window, you have to take calculated risks. I have no issue with the signing.
Darvish, $21m AAV through 2023
Cueto, $21.6m AAV through 2022
Zimmerman, $22m AAV through 2021
Include the no trade protection and the opt out after two years, this deal is good.
Speaking of pitchers with Chicago connections:
Esteban Loaiza pitched for 14 years in the major leagues. He's now facing way more time than that in the California Penal League.
Multiple news outlets are reporting that Loaiza was arrested in San Diego County on Friday for transporting roughly 44 pounds of heroin and cocaine.
http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/02/12/former-mlb-pitcher-esteban-loaiza-arrested-with-44-pounds-of-heroin-and-cocaine/
1) Yu Darvish: signed through 2023, opt-out after 2019
2) Jon Lester: signed through 2020, team option for 2021
3) Jose Quintana: signed through 2018, team options for 2019 & 2020
4) Kyle Hendricks: arb-eligible 2019 & 2020, free agent after 2020
5) Tyler Chatwood: signed through 2020
6) Brandon Morrow: signed through 2019, team option for 2020
7) Steve Cishek: signed through 2019
8) Pedro Strop: signed through 2018, team option for 2019
9) Brian Duensing: signed through 2019
10) Mike Montgomery: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
11) Justin Wilson: signed through 2018
12) Carl Edwards Jr.: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, free agent after 2022
13) Justin Grimm: arb-eligible 2019, free agent after 2019
1) Anthony Rizzo: signed through 2019, team options for 2020 and 2021
2) Javier Baez: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
3) Addison Russell: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, free agent after 2022
4) Kris Bryant: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
5) Ben Zobrist: signed through 2019
6) Tommy La Stella: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, free agent after 2020
7) Kyle Schwarber: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
8) Albert Almora Jr.: not arb-eligible until 2020, free agent after 2023
9) Jason Heyward: signed through 2023, opt-out after 2018
10) Ian Happ: not arb-eligible until 2021, free agent after 2024
11) Willson Contreras: not arb-eligible until 2020, free agent after 2023
12) Chris Gimenez: on minor-league deal, likely a free agent after 2018
Quote from: Pakuni on February 12, 2018, 10:07:19 AM
Speaking of pitchers with Chicago connections:
Esteban Loaiza pitched for 14 years in the major leagues. He's now facing way more time than that in the California Penal League.
Multiple news outlets are reporting that Loaiza was arrested in San Diego County on Friday for transporting roughly 44 pounds of heroin and cocaine.
http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/02/12/former-mlb-pitcher-esteban-loaiza-arrested-with-44-pounds-of-heroin-and-cocaine/
I just met him at SoxFest a couple weeks ago. I did not make any financial transactions with him for the record.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 12, 2018, 10:21:08 AM
1) Yu Darvish: signed through 2023, opt-out after 2019
2) Jon Lester: signed through 2020, team option for 2021
3) Jose Quintana: signed through 2018, team options for 2019 & 2020
4) Kyle Hendricks: arb-eligible 2019 & 2020, free agent after 2020
5) Tyler Chatwood: signed through 2020
6) Brandon Morrow: signed through 2019, team option for 2020
7) Steve Cishek: signed through 2019
8) Pedro Strop: signed through 2018, team option for 2019
9) Brian Duensing: signed through 2019
10) Mike Montgomery: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
11) Justin Wilson: signed through 2018
12) Carl Edwards Jr.: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, free agent after 2022
13) Justin Grimm: arb-eligible 2019, free agent after 2019
1) Anthony Rizzo: signed through 2019, team options for 2020 and 2021
2) Javier Baez: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
3) Addison Russell: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, free agent after 2022
4) Kris Bryant: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
5) Ben Zobrist: signed through 2019
6) Tommy La Stella: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, free agent after 2020
7) Kyle Schwarber: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
8) Albert Almora Jr.: not arb-eligible until 2020, free agent after 2023
9) Jason Heyward: signed through 2023, opt-out after 2018
10) Ian Happ: not arb-eligible until 2021, free agent after 2024
11) Willson Contreras: not arb-eligible until 2020, free agent after 2023
12) Chris Gimenez: on minor-league deal, likely a free agent after 2018
Hahaha, you work for roster resource?
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 10:42:57 AM
Hahaha, you work for roster resource?
I know how to cut and paste from other websites.
The Cubs 25 man roster this year is pretty much set. Even next year, Justin Wilson is the only player not under contract.
Quote from: MU82 on February 11, 2018, 01:05:10 PM
Okey dokey.
Also oft-injured, can't pitch 200 innings and sucks in the postseason.
Again, a bargain!
And again, I'd have signed him, too.
I was merely pointing out there are other valid comparisons than the ones you pointed out. Here are some from Baseball Prospectus:
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/card/53155/yu-darvish
Quote from: PTM on February 11, 2018, 01:08:44 PM
It's good too see the bad side of the deal too. Regardless of logic.
If Darvish is a solid 2 for 3 seasons, l'll be delighted. Darvish also has no trade protection, which should be noted, huge part of this deal.
Of course. I never said it wasn't risky or that there isn't an immense downside. There always is with long-term deals for pitchers.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 11, 2018, 01:18:13 PM
Hmm, I'm going to have to change my Scoop password if someone from my username was telling you Yu is on PEDs. Would I be surprised if he was? Not in the least bit. When Dee Gordon was suspended for PED use that was the last time I will ever be surprised to find out any professional athlete uses PEDs. But I can't say Yu being a clear cut PED user like the 3 Cubs I've said undoubtedly have used PEDs has ever crossed my mind.
Then again, the 20-some year old who threw 100 MPH routinely, was constantly facing nagging injuries, and came onto the scene at the height of anabolic steroid use when 95% of MLB players were using PEDs had a baby face and threw this pitch called a curveball that nobody else ever threw, so of course he wasn't using PEDs. And the guy who went from hitting 8 home runs to 33 and then all the way up to 66 home runs in a season couldn't speak English, so how could he get steroids? And the pitcher who was absolutely horrendous until his youthful 28 year old season and in one offseason became one of the best pitchers in baseball just needed Jesus Bosio (who the Cubs just fired) to resurrect his career from the dead.
You're forgetting something. You're arguing with Cubs fans. The Cubs have never made a bad move in the history of the franchise. They're the greatest baseball franchise ever created. If they sign someone whose former team no longer wanted them, it's a great bargain move! If they let someone walk that another team signs up, that new team got screwed, the Cubs know exactly what that person was and he totally isn't worth it!
You're an idiot, Wades.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Not weird he turned it down, weird that the Cubs offered. VB indicated the Cubs knew better and didn't have interest.
I never once said the Cubs didn't have interest. If they did in fact offer him 6 years that would surprise me a great deal. Of course, like your Darvish/Dodgers example and knowing Boras' demands, was there any chance it would have been accepted?
Darvish has clearly been the team's preference. Like it or not, that likely weighs into other team's pursuits as a factor. Never said it was the only factor.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 12, 2018, 11:18:48 AM
Darvish has clearly been the team's preference. Like it or not, that likely weighs into other team's pursuits as a factor. Never said it was the only factor.
If Darvish clearly was the team's preference, why make the last-ditch effort to five Arrieta the same deal?
Seems more likely Arrieta was the slight preference, but they wanted to get one of them locked down with that contract and took the guy who blinked first.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 12, 2018, 10:57:09 AM
I know how to cut and paste from other websites.
The Cubs 25 man roster this year is pretty much set. Even next year, Justin Wilson is the only player not under contract.
Prediction: Steve Cishek and Justin Wilson will be the Cubs' top 2 arms out of the pen this season.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 12, 2018, 11:22:21 AM
If Darvish clearly was the team's preference, why make the last-ditch effort to five Arrieta the same deal?
Seems more likely Arrieta was the slight preference, but they wanted to get one of them locked down with that contract and took the guy who blinked first.
I think that Heyman report is a huge favor to Boras, there's no way the Cubs (or any team) talked to any FA pitcher, let alone Arrieta in that manner. "Hey Jake, if Darvish doesn't take this deal, you can have the exact same one"
Heyman is trumpeting for Boras.
Quote from: PTM on February 12, 2018, 11:40:55 AM
I think that Heyman report is a huge favor to Boras, there's no way the Cubs (or any team) talked to any FA pitcher, let alone Arrieta in that manner. "Hey Jake, if Darvish doesn't take this deal, you can have the exact same one"
Heyman is trumpeting for Boras.
Was just about to post the same exact thing. Based on everything else that was reported throughout the offseason, there was no indication the Cubs would go past 4 years for Arrieta. But once Yu signs they were willing to go to 6?
I'm skeptical.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 12, 2018, 11:54:26 AM
Was just about to post the same exact thing. Based on everything else that was reported throughout the offseason, there was no indication the Cubs would go past 4 years for Arrieta. But once Yu signs they were willing to go to 6?
I'm skeptical.
Respectfully, you guys have the story completely wrong.
The offer to Arrieta came
before Darvish signed, not after.
It was reported as "Darvish is close to taking this deal, but we'll give it to you instead if you want to stay here." In other words,
before signing Darvish, Theo tried to sign Arrieta to the same contract. Arrieta declined.
Maybe Heyman is doing Boras a favor? It's possible, I suppose. But not everything is a shady conspiracy. Maybe it's just a matter of Arrieta wanting more than the Cubs were willing to pay. It happens.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 12, 2018, 11:59:26 AM
Respectfully, you guys have the story completely wrong.
The offer to Arrieta came before Darvish signed, not after.
It was reported as "Darvish is close to taking this deal, but we'll give it to you instead if you want to stay here." In other words, before signing Darvish, Theo tried to sign Arrieta to the same contract. Arrieta declined.
Maybe Heyman is doing Boras a favor? It's possible, I suppose. But not everything is a shady conspiracy. Maybe it's just a matter of Arrieta wanting more than the Cubs were willing to pay. It happens.
Arrieta did want more than the Cubs were willing to pay. By all accounts the Cubs also preferred Darvish so the timing and reporting of a 6 year offer to Arrieta seems awfully convenient with him struggling to drum up much interest on the market.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 12, 2018, 11:18:48 AM
I never once said the Cubs didn't have interest. If they did in fact offer him 6 years that would surprise me a great deal. Of course, like your Darvish/Dodgers example and knowing Boras' demands, was there any chance it would have been accepted?
Darvish has clearly been the team's preference. Like it or not, that likely weighs into other team's pursuits as a factor. Never said it was the only factor.
Really? Hmm. You said
QuoteThe Cubs lack of interest in Arrieta has hurt his market. Who would know him better?
I didn't realize "lack of interest" and "didn't have interest" were so different. Though I am "dumb" and "illogical" so I guess the nuance escapes me.
The Cubs were obviously interested in Arrieta. There were multiple credible reports from different credible sources throughout the offseason that the Cubs made a couple (at least) different offers to Arrieta.
And while your reason was "who would know him better", which I thought (and still do, and clearly it carries no water) was ridiculous.
Actually I said
QuoteThe who know him better thing is ridiculous. For 100 different reasons, number 1 probably being Scott Boras.
I stand by that. In every way. Boras was crowing about a 7/200 deal for Arrieta which is out of line. That has scared teams away. Just like his 300 predictions for JDM have kept most teams away and no one has even approached that number (by reports anyways).
Teams have their own ways of evaluating players. To think that they see the Cubs not going hard after a guy, so they don't is incredibly arrogant. You really think other teams make their decisions based off who the Cubs like and dislike?
Boras is the probably the primary reason Arrieta is not on the Cubs and probably the reason for his relatively quiet market. Not some insider information the Cubs have because they "know him".
Quote from: PTM on February 12, 2018, 09:50:40 AM
Darvish, $21m AAV through 2023
Cueto, $21.6m AAV through 2022
Zimmerman, $22m AAV through 2021
Include the no trade protection and the opt out after two years, this deal is good.
Wasn't Cueto better pretty much every where but K numbers when he signed his deal? If nothing else he seems like a pretty appropriate comparison which would indicate more of a market deal than a bargain.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 12, 2018, 10:07:19 AM
Speaking of pitchers with Chicago connections:
Esteban Loaiza pitched for 14 years in the major leagues. He's now facing way more time than that in the California Penal League.
Multiple news outlets are reporting that Loaiza was arrested in San Diego County on Friday for transporting roughly 44 pounds of heroin and cocaine.
http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/02/12/former-mlb-pitcher-esteban-loaiza-arrested-with-44-pounds-of-heroin-and-cocaine/
This is bonkers. Dude made 44 million in his career.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 01:37:59 PM
This is bonkers. Dude made 44 million in his career.
And was married to a filthy rich pop star.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 01:23:32 PM
Really? Hmm. You said
I didn't realize "lack of interest" and "didn't have interest" were so different. Though I am "dumb" and "illogical" so I guess the nuance escapes me.
The Cubs were obviously interested in Arrieta. There were multiple credible reports from different credible sources throughout the offseason that the Cubs made a couple (at least) different offers to Arrieta.
And while your reason was "who would know him better", which I thought (and still do, and clearly it carries no water) was ridiculous.
Actually I said
I stand by that. In every way. Boras was crowing about a 7/200 deal for Arrieta which is out of line. That has scared teams away. Just like his 300 predictions for JDM have kept most teams away and no one has even approached that number (by reports anyways).
Teams have their own ways of evaluating players. To think that they see the Cubs not going hard after a guy, so they don't is incredibly arrogant. You really think other teams make their decisions based off who the Cubs like and dislike?
Boras is the probably the primary reason Arrieta is not on the Cubs and probably the reason for his relatively quiet market. Not some insider information the Cubs have because they "know him".
Yes, lack of interest and having no interest are extremely different things. Just like I didn't call you dumb or illogical, either. Nuance actually isn't a strong suit of yours.
There are a combination of factors why Arrieta is still out there. Boras is absolutely one of them, likely the biggest. To think other front offices paid attention to the Cubs and Arrieta this offseason is not remotely arrogant.
By the way, please don't say Bob Nightengale is a reputable source. He's horrendous.
My guess is that the Cubs had an offer on the table to Arrieta for 4, maybe even 3 years. Arrieta/Boras wanted no part of that and while the Cubs liked Darvish better, they didn't like him at 6 or 7 for $150M as much as they liked Arrieta at 4/$90M. Once they were close on Darvish, they reached back out to Arrieta 1) to make completely sure that he wanted to pass on their (shorter, cheaper) offer and 2) as a courtesy to a WS Champ to let him know they were moving on if he wasn't going to agree to their offer.
I'd find it hard to believe that the Cubs offered Arrieta 6/$126M. If they truly wanted him that bad, they'd likely have reached an extension prior to free agency.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 12, 2018, 02:50:42 PM
I'd find it hard to believe that the Cubs offered Arrieta 6/$126M. If they truly wanted him that bad, they'd likely have reached an extension prior to free agency.
Boras clients almost never do this. I seem to remember once, but can't remember who it was.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 12, 2018, 02:25:25 PM
And was married to a filthy rich pop star.
Who was killed in an extremely odd and explosive plane crash. Interesting story.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 12, 2018, 02:33:07 PM
Just like I didn't call you dumb or illogical, either.
To whom was this referring?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 11, 2018, 12:59:15 PM
Sure. It would help if his logic was, well, logical.
Either way, fair enough you didn't directly call me those things. I just wanted to show how you instantly react any time someone questions your precious Cubs. Always right to insults. You always play the same hand.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 12, 2018, 02:33:07 PM
There are a combination of factors why Arrieta is still out there. Boras is absolutely one of them, likely the biggest. To think other front offices paid attention to the Cubs and Arrieta this offseason is not remotely arrogant.
Mike Girsch and John Mozeliak sitting in a room, with Girsch saying " let's sign Arrieta" and Mo saying, "hmmm Theo has a lack of interest. The Cubs are the brightest franchise out there. Must be a bad idea. I say no."
At least you acknowledge Boras has a role to play. That is something I guess.
By the way, the verb "lack" means, according to dictionary.com, "to be without".
Quote from: PTM on February 12, 2018, 03:25:29 PM
Who was killed in an extremely odd and explosive plane crash. Interesting story.
Wow, really? I had never heard that. That is well... wow.
Coming to Netflix next year I guess.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 03:21:18 PM
Boras clients almost never do this. I seem to remember once, but can't remember who it was.
Weaver and Strasburg both signed extensions before reaching free agency. There were probably a few more as well.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 12, 2018, 11:22:21 AM
If Darvish clearly was the team's preference, why make the last-ditch effort to five Arrieta the same deal?
Seems more likely Arrieta was the slight preference, but they wanted to get one of them locked down with that contract and took the guy who blinked first.
Exactly. Yu was dragging his feet with the Dodgers and Theo applied some pressure. It was indeed a courtesy to Jake, but more of one to Boras who has some other players in his portfolio Theo has an interest in (Harper, Bryant). Also, it is worth it for Theo the drive up the market for the Cubs' division rivals for Jake, forcing them to overpay.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 03:25:56 PM
To whom was this referring?
Either way, fair enough you didn't directly call me those things. I just wanted to show how you instantly react any time someone questions your precious Cubs. Always right to insults. You always play the same hand.
Mike Girsch and John Mozeliak sitting in a room, with Girsch saying " let's sign Arrieta" and Mo saying, "hmmm Theo has a lack of interest. The Cubs are the brightest franchise out there. Must be a bad idea. I say no."
At least you acknowledge Boras has a role to play. That is something I guess.
By the way, the verb "lack" means, according to dictionary.com, "to be without".
If I think an argument or viewpoint of yours is dumb or illogical that doesn't necessarily mean I think you are dumb or illogical. That's you making an assumption. You're rarely open to other points of view once your mind is made up.
You're also incorrect regarding my precious Cubs. I've never said the front office is infallible. I like this Darvish deal. It could also be a total disaster like Heyward has turned out to be thus far. They've made their share of mistakes but they've clearly done much more good than bad.
Your Cards example is a gross simplification and you know that is not at all what I'm saying.
You didn't post the entire definition of "lack": Lack means to be without
or to have less than a desirable quantity of something. The second part is key. I could have said lack of strong interest but that was implied, same as it is in this definition. The Cubs were not aggressive whatsoever in trying to have Arrieta return. To say other front offices didn't take note of that is lazy and wrong.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 12, 2018, 03:58:05 PM
Weaver and Strasburg both signed extensions before reaching free agency. There were probably a few more as well.
Strasburg. That's who I was thinking. Didn't know about Weaver, still that is 2 examples in the last 20 years. There are probably more, but it certainly isn't his MO.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 04:15:29 PM
Strasburg. That's who I was thinking. Didn't know about Weaver, still that is 2 examples in the last 20 years. There are probably more, but it certainly isn't his MO.
Nope, those are definitely outliers.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 12, 2018, 04:07:00 PM
If I think an argument or viewpoint of yours is dumb or illogical that doesn't necessarily mean I think you are dumb or illogical. That's you making an assumption. You're rarely open to other points of view once your mind is made up.
You're also incorrect regarding my precious Cubs. I've never said the front office is infallible. I like this Darvish deal. It could also be a total disaster like Heyward has turned out to be thus far. They've made their share of mistakes but they've clearly done much more good than bad.
Your Cards example is a gross simplification and you know that is not at all what I'm saying.
You didn't post the entire definition of "lack": Lack means to be without or to have less than a desirable quantity of something. The second part is key. I could have said lack of strong interest but that was implied, same as it is in this definition. The Cubs were not aggressive whatsoever in trying to have Arrieta return. To say other front offices didn't take note of that is lazy and wrong.
Ok. Seems at least open to interpretation though.
Of course the Cards example is ridiculous. To think that how the Cubs treat Arrieta has a significant impact on what guys like Mozeliak, Sabean, Rizzo, Cashman or Stearns think of him seems like a stretch.
I just don't get this whole thing. I have never heard this story ever in another free agency. But now that the Cubs aren't going to bring back the guy that has had likely their best stretch of seasons, well since I've been alive, the story is all of a sudden, the Cubs are too smart to bring him back, they know something! But that thought process has never applied to anyone else. To me, that seems like more arrogance.
But whatever the case, the Cubs have addressed their biggest need and replaced Arrieta with a similar pitcher (at least in the regular season). They seem poised to be the favorite in the Central, and one of the favorites in the NL.
Will the Brewers get one of the other pitchers? Odorizzi and Archer seem to be targets, though Archer seems very unlikely. Cobb or Lynn?
What are the Cards doing? It seems like an open secret that they have money to spend and holes to fill with free agents that look like fits (Holland, Moose, Hosmer). Will they do anything? Camps starting today!
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 04:33:42 PM
Ok. Seems at least open to interpretation though.
Of course the Cards example is ridiculous. To think that how the Cubs treat Arrieta has a significant impact on what guys like Mozeliak, Sabean, Rizzo, Cashman or Stearns think of him seems like a stretch.
I just don't get this whole thing. I have never heard this story ever in another free agency. But now that the Cubs aren't going to bring back the guy that has had likely their best stretch of seasons, well since I've been alive, the story is all of a sudden, the Cubs are too smart to bring him back, they know something! But that thought process has never applied to anyone else. To me, that seems like more arrogance.
But whatever the case, the Cubs have addressed their biggest need and replaced Arrieta with a similar pitcher (at least in the regular season). They seem poised to be the favorite in the Central, and one of the favorites in the NL.
Will the Brewers get one of the other pitchers? Odorizzi and Archer seem to be targets, though Archer seems very unlikely. Cobb or Lynn?
What are the Cards doing? It seems like an open secret that they have money to spend and holes to fill with free agents that look like fits (Holland, Moose, Hosmer). Will they do anything? Camps starting today!
It's just another piece of information in the decision making process. I think it's more plausible than you in terms of having some impact and we can leave it at that.
I can see the Brewers signing a pitcher (Cobb or Lynn, as you mentioned) and trading for one. Salazar and Odorizzi seem to make sense. I don't see Archer as a possibility.
I kind of expect Holland to end up with the Cards at this point and they'll probably get a bargain. Not sure about adding another bat. I'd love if they overpaid Hosmer but I've only read KC and SD are involved there. Not even sure who the market for Moose is right now.
Yankees seem like an ideal for for Moose. Haven't heard that they are actually interested in him, but they have kids penciled in at 2nd and 3rd, a veteran LH power bat would really make them scary. Hitting 38 hrs in Kaufmann equates to roughly a million at Yankee stadium. But the Royals aren't interested, so that's probably why no one wants him. :)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 12, 2018, 10:21:08 AM
1) Yu Darvish: signed through 2023, opt-out after 2019
2) Jon Lester: signed through 2020, team option for 2021
3) Jose Quintana: signed through 2018, team options for 2019 & 2020
4) Kyle Hendricks: arb-eligible 2019 & 2020, free agent after 2020
5) Tyler Chatwood: signed through 2020
6) Brandon Morrow: signed through 2019, team option for 2020
7) Steve Cishek: signed through 2019
8) Pedro Strop: signed through 2018, team option for 2019
9) Brian Duensing: signed through 2019
10) Mike Montgomery: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
11) Justin Wilson: signed through 2018
12) Carl Edwards Jr.: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, free agent after 2022
13) Justin Grimm: arb-eligible 2019, free agent after 2019
1) Anthony Rizzo: signed through 2019, team options for 2020 and 2021
2) Javier Baez: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
3) Addison Russell: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, free agent after 2022
4) Kris Bryant: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
5) Ben Zobrist: signed through 2019
6) Tommy La Stella: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, free agent after 2020
7) Kyle Schwarber: arb-eligible 2019, 2020, 2021, free agent after 2021
8) Albert Almora Jr.: not arb-eligible until 2020, free agent after 2023
9) Jason Heyward: signed through 2023, opt-out after 2018
10) Ian Happ: not arb-eligible until 2021, free agent after 2024
11) Willson Contreras: not arb-eligible until 2020, free agent after 2023
12) Chris Gimenez: on minor-league deal, likely a free agent after 2018
The only reason the Cubs shouldn't be legit contenders for several more years is the "stuff happens" reason.
Combine a couple injuries with a couple of players underperforming and a couple guys getting old fast (like Lester), and that happens even to good teams sometimes.
The Cubs have some trade-able pieces, too. I keep going back to "Schwarbs." Very expendable, and one would think an AL team might have interest if he stays healthy and is at least a little bit less of a disaster** than this past season.
(**There probably are advanced stats that would say he was the best hitter in baseball history in 2017.)
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 05:51:36 PM
Yankees seem like an ideal for for Moose. Haven't heard that they are actually interested in him, but they have kids penciled in at 2nd and 3rd, a veteran LH power bat would really make them scary. Hitting 38 hrs in Kaufmann equates to roughly a million at Yankee stadium. But the Royals aren't interested, so that's probably why no one wants him. :)
Couldn't help it, huh? I don't blame you.
Quote from: MU82 on February 12, 2018, 06:44:27 PM
The only reason the Cubs shouldn't be legit contenders for several more years is the "stuff happens" reason.
Combine a couple injuries with a couple of players underperforming and a couple guys getting old fast (like Lester), and that happens even to good teams sometimes.
The Cubs have some trade-able pieces, too. I keep going back to "Schwarbs." Very expendable, and one would think an AL team might have interest if he stays healthy and is at least a little bit less of a disaster** than this past season.
(**There probably are advanced stats that would say he was the best hitter in baseball history in 2017.)
He actually was excellent offensively after returning from the minors (255/.338/.565 with a 131 wRC+). It'll be interesting to see if his weight loss translates at all to any defensive improvement.
Quote from: buckchuckler on February 12, 2018, 03:25:56 PM
To whom was this referring?
Either way, fair enough you didn't directly call me those things. I just wanted to show how you instantly react any time someone questions your precious Cubs. Always right to insults. You always play the same hand.
Mike Girsch and John Mozeliak sitting in a room, with Girsch saying " let's sign Arrieta" and Mo saying, "hmmm Theo has a lack of interest. The Cubs are the brightest franchise out there. Must be a bad idea. I say no."
At least you acknowledge Boras has a role to play. That is something I guess.
By the way, the verb "lack" means, according to dictionary.com, "to be without".
Nailed it.
New rules for 2018 to speed up the game.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/20/587181780/rules-for-2018-aim-to-speed-up-how-long-it-takes-to-play-a-mlb-game
The Brewers should make an offer for Archer before the Rays' drugs wear off. They're trading everyone with a multi million per year contract and less than 4 years of control, so they must think they're WAY off contention in the next couple. No sense carrying a 29 year old pitcher through that time...
Quote from: GB Warrior on February 20, 2018, 09:28:33 PM
The Brewers should make an offer for Archer before the Rays' drugs wear off. They're trading everyone with a multi million per year contract and less than 4 years of control, so they must think they're WAY off contention in the next couple. No sense carrying a 29 year old pitcher through that time...
He's still controlled for 4 more years cheap. They have no reason to trade him for anything less than an overpay. I don't see it with what the Brewers can offer.
Cubs Brewers. First game of the year. Leggo.
NL CENTRAL prediction: Cubs win it by 6 games.
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on February 24, 2018, 07:57:51 AM
NL CENTRAL prediction: Cubs win it by 6 games.
For me comes down to Cubs bullpen and Brewers starting rotation if/when they add an arm and Jimmy comes back. But yeah, no reason to not predict Cubs at this point with Brewers/Cards competing for WC spots. It'll be close though.
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on February 24, 2018, 07:57:51 AM
NL CENTRAL prediction: Cubs win it by 6 games.
No chance.
The Cardinals will surprise people. Pitchers play to their potential and they chase the Cubs all season -- maybe catch the small bears.
The Brewers are a big question mark at this point.
Quote from: dgies9156 on February 25, 2018, 03:41:39 PM
No chance.
The Cardinals will surprise people. Pitchers play to their potential and they chase the Cubs all season -- maybe catch the small bears.
The Brewers are a big question mark at this point.
Disagree.
If the Cubs play to their potential and are healthy it won't be that close.
Of course it rarely works out that way and anything can happen.
Westgate Las Vegas SuperBook...
Cubs: 93.5 wins, 7-1 WS odds, Div odds -240
Cardinals: 86.5 wins, 20-1 WS odds, Div odds 7-2
Brewers: 83.5 wins, 30-1 WS odds, Div odds 7-1
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 26, 2018, 03:49:49 PM
Westgate Las Vegas SuperBook...
Cubs: 93.5 wins, 7-1 WS odds, Div odds -240
Cardinals: 86.5 wins, 20-1 WS odds, Div odds 7-2
Brewers: 83.5 wins, 30-1 WS odds, Div odds 7-1
I think the Brewers may be a bit like the Royals where they consistently overachieved for a few years, but still can't see more than 85-88 wins if they stay healthy.
Hard to guess on St. Louis because youngsters like Reyes and Weaver may have a lot to do with their success (or lack of it).
Quote from: Jockey on February 26, 2018, 04:28:59 PM
Hard to guess on St. Louis because youngsters like Reyes and Weaver may have a lot to do with their success (or lack of it).
Agree, but I think they have solved their middle of the batting order problems.
The Cardinals' biggest problem appears to be their closer. If the Cardinals develop a legit closer this year, the small bears will look a lot smaller.
The Cubs won in 2016 because they were 1st or 2nd in nearly every pitching category. Darvish, a full year of Quintana and a healthy Hendricks makes them potentially dominant in that category again. It should be plenty to take the division.... but of course there are always injuries.
Quote from: dgies9156 on February 26, 2018, 05:34:04 PM
Agree, but I think they have solved their middle of the batting order problems.
The Cardinals' biggest problem appears to be their closer. If the Cardinals develop a legit closer this year, the small bears will look a lot smaller.
Maybe. Last year was Ozuna's best year by far. He's entering his prime and is a great acquisition but it's no sure thing he produces at that level.
Pham broke out last year for the first time at age 29. Is that sustainable? He could be a prime regression candidate. DeJong has no track record - can be so it again? There were also very high expectations for Diaz, Piscotty, and Grichuk and now they're gone.
Fowler will play at age 32 and hasn't been particularly durable. Carpenter will be 32 and Molina will be 35. All of these guys can be productive but at this point you can't assume they'll be better.
Obviously this exercise can be done with any team and the Cards'' offense should be fine but there are a lot of question marks to me.
I'm extremely surprised they haven't taken a run at Holland.
Really interesting article examining the bizarre free agent winter.
http://www.businessinsider.com/mlb-free-agency-drama-rift-2018-3
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 27, 2018, 12:41:16 AM
Maybe. Last year was Ozuna's best year by far. He's entering his prime and is a great acquisition but it's no sure thing he produces at that level.
Pham broke out last year for the first time at age 29. Is that sustainable? He could be a prime regression candidate. DeJong has no track record - can be so it again? There were also very high expectations for Diaz, Piscotty, and Grichuk and now they're gone.
Fowler will play at age 32 and hasn't been particularly durable. Carpenter will be 32 and Molina will be 35. All of these guys can be productive but at this point you can't assume they'll be better.
Obviously this exercise can be done with any team and the Cards'' offense should be fine but there are a lot of question marks to me.
I'm extremely surprised they haven't taken a run at Holland.
You're forgetting the intangibles like the Devilbird blackmagic that they employ to stay in every race. Doesn't matter how many potential issues they have on paper, injuries, etc. They find ways to win. Last year obviously did not end favorably for the first time in a long time, but STL takes a lot of pride in everything they do. Many parallels to be drawn to the Packers IMO.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 05, 2018, 04:43:02 PM
You're forgetting the intangibles like the Devilbird blackmagic.
I just love that Devilbird Blackmagic.Boy does that make being a Cardinals fan fun!!!!!
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 05, 2018, 04:43:02 PM
You're forgetting the intangibles like the Devilbird blackmagic that they employ to stay in every race. Doesn't matter how many potential issues they have on paper, injuries, etc. They find ways to win. Last year obviously did not end favorably for the first time in a long time, but STL takes a lot of pride in everything they do. Many parallels to be drawn to the Packers IMO.
Cardinals fans do make me appreciate how obnoxious we are as Packers fans.
(https://d3p157427w54jq.cloudfront.net/uploads/2016/07/notsodifferent.gif)
Quote from: GB Warrior on March 05, 2018, 08:38:40 PM
Cardinals fans do make me appreciate how obnoxious kind, loving, human beings we are as Packers fans.
FIFY
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 05, 2018, 04:43:02 PM
You're forgetting the intangibles like the Devilbird blackmagic that they employ to stay in every race. Doesn't matter how many potential issues they have on paper, injuries, etc. They find ways to win. Last year obviously did not end favorably for the first time in a long time, but STL takes a lot of pride in everything they do. Many parallels to be drawn to the Packers IMO.
As a Chicago fan and rival of both the Cardinals and Packers, I find no parallel between the two teams.
The Cardinals keep winning with players you may not necessarily expect them to. Take one guy away, and they somehow (devilbird blackmagic?) get stronger.
The Packers win because they repeatedly have the best player in the league as the most important position in sports. Take that guy away and they are very average.
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on March 07, 2018, 09:10:17 AM
As a Chicago fan and rival of both the Cardinals and Packers, I find no parallel between the two teams.
The Cardinals keep winning with players you may not necessarily expect them to. Take one guy away, and they somehow (devilbird blackmagic?) get stronger.
The Packers win because they repeatedly have the best player in the league as the most important position in sports. Take that guy away and they are very average.
I'd say that probably has more to do with the difference in the sports themselves. The quarterback position is far more important to a football team than any single position in baseball is to a baseball team. Give any football team Brett Hundley for 10 games in a season and chances are they didn't have a very good season.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 05, 2018, 04:43:02 PM
You're forgetting the intangibles like the Devilbird blackmagic that they employ to stay in every race. Doesn't matter how many potential issues they have on paper, injuries, etc. They find ways to win. Last year obviously did not end favorably for the first time in a long time, but STL takes a lot of pride in everything they do.
Maybe the FBI was the reason for their down year?
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on March 07, 2018, 09:10:17 AM
As a Chicago fan and rival of both the Cardinals and Packers, I find no parallel between the two teams.
The Cardinals keep winning with players you may not necessarily expect them to. Take one guy away, and they somehow (devilbird blackmagic?) get stronger.
The Packers win because they repeatedly have the best player in the league as the most important position in sports. Take that guy away and they are very average.
It's less the specific makeup of the team as it relates to the sport and more of the aura of pride and "tradition of winning" that permeates the organization, and how they have dominated their respective divisions (this past season aside). It drives the other teams nuts because they cannot seemingly get an edge for any sustained amount of time.
Obviously, the Cards have these seemingly "no name" players that rise up from the abyss and play significant roles in addition to the big names. Closest comparison between the Rodgers effect would be Pujols but success in baseball cannot be attributed to one player like it can be in football. Definitely agree that the Packers are not playoff caliber without Rodgers.
Upon further review, I'd say the Patriots are more like the Devilbirds in terms of "next man up" (and I can't stand either).The 90's Braves were probably more similar to the Packers because they always won the division only to get bounced in the playoffs year after year.
This coming from a lifelong Cubs fan and Packers fan of many years. I know it makes no sense and everyone gives me the stank-eye, but just the way my life has gone in relation to different sports.
Quote from: hagansworld on March 07, 2018, 09:16:05 AM
I'd say that probably has more to do with the difference in the sports themselves. The quarterback position is far more important to a football team than any single position in baseball is to a baseball team. Give any football team Brett Hundley for 10 games in a season and chances are they didn't have a very good season.
Bortles, Keanum, Mariota, Foles, Alex Smith, Tyrod Taylor.......
A good team can win with a crap QB. GB lost
partly because Hundley was/is a stiff, but the rest of the team sucks. Give a backup QB the slowest receivers in the league with a porous right side of the OL to go along with a terrible defense run by a coach who has lost his way and things go south in a hurry.
Quote from: Jockey on March 07, 2018, 03:59:30 PM
Bortles, Keanum, Mariota, Foles, Alex Smith, Tyrod Taylor.......
A good team can win with a crap QB. GB lost partly because Hundley was/is a stiff, but the rest of the team sucks. Give a backup QB the slowest receivers in the league with a porous right side of the OL to go along with a terrible defense run by a coach who has lost his way and things go south in a hurry.
You really think Brett Hundley is anywhere near Bortles, Keanum, Mariota, Foles, Smith, or Taylor? Alrighty then.
Oh good. This is becoming another thread about the NFL.
Quote from: hagansworld on March 07, 2018, 06:09:50 PM
You really think Brett Hundley is anywhere near Bortles, Keanum, Mariota, Foles, Smith, or Taylor? Alrighty then.
Nope. Never said he was.
But all of those are average, at best, QBs who led their teams to the playoffs.
And every one of them had faster wideouts.
Anyone see the "Jordan to Pippen" bounce pass by Lester a few days ago? Didn't exactly go as planned.
It's mind-boggling how some pitchers cannot simply field the ball and throw to first. It's one of the most basic skills you learn since day one. Matt Garza is another pitcher who struggles with this I believe.
If it works, it works, but it would seem to make things harder to purposely try to bounce the ball to first rather than throwing it like a normal human being.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 08, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
Anyone see the "Jordan to Pippen" bounce pass by Lester a few days ago? Didn't exactly go as planned.
It's mind-boggling how some pitchers cannot simply field the ball and throw to first. It's one of the most basic skills you learn since day one. Matt Garza is another pitcher who struggles with this I believe.
If it works, it works, but it would seem to make things harder to purposely try to bounce the ball to first rather than throwing it like a normal human being.
Funny stuff.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 08, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
Anyone see the "Jordan to Pippen" bounce pass by Lester a few days ago? Didn't exactly go as planned.
It's mind-boggling how some pitchers cannot simply field the ball and throw to first. It's one of the most basic skills you learn since day one. Matt Garza is another pitcher who struggles with this I believe.
If it works, it works, but it would seem to make things harder to purposely try to bounce the ball to first rather than throwing it like a normal human being.
Julian Tavarez used to roll the ball to first when he pitched for the Red Sox. Strange, but I don't remember it costing him an out.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 08, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
Anyone see the "Jordan to Pippen" bounce pass by Lester a few days ago? Didn't exactly go as planned.
It's mind-boggling how some pitchers cannot simply field the ball and throw to first. It's one of the most basic skills you learn since day one. Matt Garza is another pitcher who struggles with this I believe.
If it works, it works, but it would seem to make things harder to purposely try to bounce the ball to first rather than throwing it like a normal human being.
It really is strange. He's gotten by pretty good thought, winning a few World Series in the process. I keep waiting for teams to exploit it. Two years ago Dave Roberts said they wouldn't do that because he would be asking his guys to play in a different way, or do things they weren't used to doing, and that could hurt their game too.
As crazy as it is for Lester, it's even worse for guys like Chuck Knoblach and Steve Sax, playing over at second and having the yips. I think it was Mackey Sasser, a catcher, who couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher and it played a big part in his career ending.
Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on March 09, 2018, 08:25:12 AM
It really is strange. He's gotten by pretty good thought, winning a few World Series in the process. I keep waiting for teams to exploit it. Two years ago Dave Roberts said they wouldn't do that because he would be asking his guys to play in a different way, or do things they weren't used to doing, and that could hurt their game too.
As crazy as it is for Lester, it's even worse for guys like Chuck Knoblach and Steve Sax, playing over at second and having the yips. I think it was Mackey Sasser, a catcher, who couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher and it played a big part in his career ending.
Speaking of catchers that give me the yips, every stinking time there's a drop third for Willson Contreras, I have a heart attack! He throws it so much harder than necessary causing it to go offline. Rizzo has to expend so much effort to keep it from getting away. Can't remember if it cost the Cubs a game once but I remember him throwing it away late innings in a game last year when the game seemed to be in hand.
Adios Hundley and da horse ya road in on. Wrigley's may kneed a spokesperson, hey?
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 09, 2018, 01:54:09 PM
Speaking of catchers that give me the yips, every stinking time there's a drop third for Willson Contreras, I have a heart attack! He throws it so much harder than necessary causing it to go offline. Rizzo has to expend so much effort to keep it from getting away. Can't remember if it cost the Cubs a game once but I remember him throwing it away late innings in a game last year when the game seemed to be in hand.
Pretty sure it never cost the Cubs a game but he's gotta tone it down a bit.
Arrieta to Phillies - 3/75.
Quite a difference after wanting 6-7 years and $200 million.
So wades if arrieta does even better on Philly, do they have super peds
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on March 11, 2018, 09:58:04 PM
So wades if arrieta does even better on Philly, do they have super peds
I don't care where he's playing. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
Arrietta roided like crazy. And he's a millionaire for it. Good for him.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 09, 2018, 01:54:09 PM
Speaking of catchers that give me the yips, every stinking time there's a drop third for Willson Contreras, I have a heart attack! He throws it so much harder than necessary causing it to go offline. Rizzo has to expend so much effort to keep it from getting away. Can't remember if it cost the Cubs a game once but I remember him throwing it away late innings in a game last year when the game seemed to be in hand.
At the Cubs Convention, Rizzo commented how he never knows what to expect. 90% of the time Contreras throws the fastball to first but occasionally he'll throw a change up.
Just like batting.
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 08, 2018, 11:44:09 AM
Julian Tavarez used to roll the ball to first when he pitched for the Red Sox. Strange, but I don't remember it costing him an out.
He did that a few times as a Cub as well. That dude was batshit crazy.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 11, 2018, 11:12:38 PM
At the Cubs Convention, Rizzo commented how he never knows what to expect. 90% of the time Contreras throws the fastball to first but occasionally he'll throw a change up.
Just like batting.
Interesting. As long as he doesn't develop a bender it should be ok.
I appreciate Willson's pickoff ability. It's not quite Yadi level (the GOAT of catchers defensively) but not bad at all.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 12, 2018, 09:32:05 AM
Interesting. As long as he doesn't develop a bender it should be ok.
I appreciate Willson's pickoff ability. It's not quite Yadi level (the GOAT of catchers defensively) but not bad at all.
Carter, Sundberg or Boone might want to argue the point with you.
Tebow sent to the minor-league camp by the Mets after he went 0-for-4 with 4 strikeouts Tuesday.
In 7 big-league exhibitions, he batted .056 (1-for-18) with 11 Ks.
Silliness.
Quote from: MU82 on March 14, 2018, 09:56:23 AM
Tebow sent to the minor-league camp by the Mets after he went 0-for-4 with 4 strikeouts Tuesday.
In 7 big-league exhibitions, he batted .056 (1-for-18) with 11 Ks.
Silliness.
I am a fan of Timmy but his ceiling is maybe AA. Considering the Mets aren't going anywhere this season, maybe they were chasing the possibility of selling tickets with him on the roster, but clearly they can't get past numbers like this.
Quote from: MU82 on March 14, 2018, 09:56:23 AM
Tebow sent to the minor-league camp by the Mets after he went 0-for-4 with 4 strikeouts Tuesday.
In 7 big-league exhibitions, he batted .056 (1-for-18) with 11 Ks.
Silliness.
Is that bad?
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on March 12, 2018, 09:32:05 AM
Yadi level (the GOAT of catchers defensively)
You spelled Ivan Rodriguez wrong.
Very surprised Cobb got 4/60 so late in the offseason considering the contracts others had to settle for.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 21, 2018, 07:34:27 AM
Very surprised Cobb got 4/60 so late in the offseason considering the contracts others had to settle for.
The guys who took short-term deals (Lynn, Moustakas, etc) are likely betting on themselves and hoping to get their big pay day a year from now. Cobb took the money and could end up being a steal for the Orioles at $15M/season.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 21, 2018, 08:17:19 AM
The guys who took short-term deals (Lynn, Moustakas, etc) are likely betting on themselves and hoping to get their big pay day a year from now. Cobb took the money and could end up being a steal for the Orioles at $15M/season.
I think Cobb was a $15-17 pitcher. Given injuries, I think it's a good deal for both sides. Quite frankly, I'm glad he waiting. I'm sure the Cubs offered similar dollars, but because he held out Theo got Yu.
Quote from: PTM + Hagans = Us on March 21, 2018, 09:03:27 AM
I think Cobb was a $15-17 pitcher. Given injuries, I think it's a good deal for both sides. Quite frankly, I'm glad he waiting. I'm sure the Cubs offered similar dollars, but because he held out Theo got Yu.
I don't disagree he was worth around that amount but considering how many other players got much less than they were worth I think he is fortunate.
I've seen rumors the Cubs offered 3/42 or 4/48, although you always have to take that with a grain of salt. Definitely happy with how it worked out for the Cubs.
Quote from: PTM + Hagans = Us on March 21, 2018, 09:03:27 AM
I think Cobb was a $15-17 pitcher. Given injuries, I think it's a good deal for both sides. Quite frankly, I'm glad he waiting. I'm sure the Cubs offered similar dollars, but because he held out Theo got Yu.
O's also have to give up the 51st pick as he had a qualifying offer. I think this made Cobb the Cubs' Plan C or D.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on March 14, 2018, 04:57:35 PM
You spelled Ivan Rodriguez wrong.
Actually, while Pudge may have been the greatest throwing catcher ever, he wasn't great at blocking balls, preventing wild pitches, etc. Johnny Bench may well be the guy.
Opening Day tomorrow
PECOTA projections for 2018:
AL East
NYY 97-65
BOS 89-73
TB 83-79
TOR 79-83
BAL 70-92
AL Central
CLE 96-66
MIN 82-80
CWS 72-90
DET 68-94
KC 65-97
AL West
HOU 99-63
SEA 82-80
LAA 79-83
OAK 76-96
TEX 75-87
NL East
WSH 88-74
PHI 81-81
NYM 80-82
ATL 76-86
MIA 65-97
NL Central
CHC 91-71
STL 85-77
MIL 84-78
PIT 78-84
CIN 75-87
NL West
LAD 97-65
ARZ 87-75
SFG 83-79
COL 78-84
SD 73-89
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on March 28, 2018, 03:28:08 PM
Opening Day tomorrow
PECOTA projections for 2018:
AL East
NYY 97-65
BOS 89-73
TB 83-79
TOR 79-83
BAL 70-92
AL Central
CLE 96-66
MIN 82-80
CWS 72-90
DET 68-94
KC 65-97
AL West
HOU 99-63
SEA 82-80
LAA 79-83
OAK 76-96
TEX 75-87
NL East
WSH 88-74
PHI 81-81
NYM 80-82
ATL 76-86
MIA 65-97
NL Central
CHC 91-71
STL 85-77
MIL 84-78
PIT 78-84
CIN 75-87
NL West
LAD 97-65
ARZ 87-75
SFG 83-79
COL 78-84
SD 73-89
If I'm the Brewers, I'm pleased with that given I didn't make any splashes in FA. Last year was predicated on career highs for a lot of players (Anderson, Shaw, Arcia, Santana, Sogard, and - to a lesser extent - Thames, Aguilar). PECOTA rightfully projects regression there. If everyone regresses as severely as projected, 84 wins feels pretty good.
If one or two of those players make last year their new normal (Arcia, Shaw and Santana the likely candidates), we could see a handful of wins above that.
This should be a fun season, but we should have no illusions of catching the Cubs unless there is a bizarre confluence of events and injuries.
Quote from: GB Warrior on March 28, 2018, 04:27:39 PM
If I'm the Brewers, I'm pleased with that given I didn't make any splashes in FA. Last year was predicated on career highs for a lot of players (Anderson, Shaw, Arcia, Santana, Sogard, and - to a lesser extent - Thames, Aguilar). PECOTA rightfully projects regression there. If everyone regresses as severely as projected, 84 wins feels pretty good.
If one or two of those players make last year their new normal (Arcia, Shaw and Santana the likely candidates), we could see a handful of wins above that.
This should be a fun season, but we should have no illusions of catching the Cubs unless there is a bizarre confluence of events and injuries.
Agree with this. Catching the Cubs is unlikely but snagging one of the two WC spots is a realistic goal.
Catching the Cubs IS unlikely. But it's not true that the Crew didn't make any moves. I point you to position #1 and #2 in the batting order. Last year, they fell out of the playoff chase because they stopped scoring runs. Fewer strikeouts and more runners on base should help. It's a darn shame that Nelson isn't healthy.
Quote from: GB Warrior on March 28, 2018, 04:27:39 PM
If I'm the Brewers, I'm pleased with that given I didn't make any splashes in FA.
Maybe you could actually follow baseball and its happenings before commenting on it.
Quote from: Jockey on March 28, 2018, 06:08:07 PM
Maybe you could actually follow baseball and its happenings before commenting on it.
LOL. What I meant was *ahem* didn't make any splashes at PITCHING in FA. Not completely my thought aside (don't Scoop and conference call, kids), my point stands on regression. PECOTA is fairly conservative. Generally ballpark accurate, but conservative. I cannot see us falling below that line unless big injuries happen
Well that's a way for the opening pitch of 2018 to go.
Predictions
NL East: Nationals
NL Central: Cubs
NL West: Dodgers
NL Wild Cards: Giants, Cardinals
NL Champion: Cubs
AL East: Red Sox
AL Central: Twins
AL West: Astros
AL Wild Cards: Yankees, Indians
AL Champion: Red Sox
2018 World Series: Cubs over Red Sox in 6
Predictions
NL East: Nationals
NL Central: Cubs
NL West: Dodgers
NL Wild Cards: Diamondbacks, Mets
NL Champion: Cubs
AL East: Red Sox
AL Central: Indians
AL West: Astros
AL Wild Cards: Yankees, Twins
AL Champion: Indians
2018 World Series: Cubs over Indians in 7
Quote from: #UnleashFroling on March 29, 2018, 11:46:33 AM
Well that's a way for the opening pitch of 2018 to go.
Everyone is going to revel in playing the Marlins this year
Well its safe to say that Shwarbs fielding has not improved.
SCHWARBS!
Quote from: jsglow on March 28, 2018, 05:24:16 PM
Catching the Cubs IS unlikely. But it's not true that the Crew didn't make any moves. I point you to position #1 and #2 in the batting order. Last year, they fell out of the playoff chase because they stopped scoring runs. Fewer strikeouts and more runners on base should help. It's a darn shame that Nelson isn't healthy.
Why add Cain and Yelich and then do basically nothing with the rotation? Yeah, they added Chacin but that clearly seems to be a weakness of the team. Seemed odd to me.
Quote from: #UnleashFroling on March 29, 2018, 12:51:10 PM
Well its safe to say that Shwarbs fielding has not improved.
The play on the ball to the wall was tough - he should have just played it for a double. The base hit he overran was rough.
I think I'll let the season surpass a handful of innings before saying his fielding hasn't improved.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 29, 2018, 02:41:04 PM
Why add Cain and Yelich and then do basically nothing with the rotation? Yeah, they added Chacin but that clearly seems to be a weakness of the team. Seemed odd to me.
Not to me. Small market teams have to grow their own pitching talent for the most part. This year that'll mean Suter, Woodruff and Webb when he's healthy. Not sure the Crew has enough but we'll see.
Quote from: jsglow on March 29, 2018, 03:03:16 PM
Not to me. Small market teams have to grow their own pitching talent for the most part. This year that'll mean Suter, Woodruff and Webb when he's healthy. Not sure the Crew has enough but we'll see.
True, although Webb isn't really "home grown", having come over from the Yankees last July.
Quote from: jsglow on March 29, 2018, 03:03:16 PM
Not to me. Small market teams have to grow their own pitching talent for the most part. This year that'll mean Suter, Woodruff and Webb when he's healthy. Not sure the Crew has enough but we'll see.
True but pitching was out there this offseason. For example, Jake Arrieta signed for less total money than Lorenzo Cain.
RIP Rusty Staub
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM
True but pitching was out there this offseason. For example, Jake Arrieta signed for less total money than Lorenzo Cain.
I think a part of it, though, is that the pitching that was out there either wasn't very good or was unduly risky. Arrieta fought through last year, but his trends look real bad. Lynn hasn't been more than just a guy for awhile and has been hurt. Alex Cobb is extremely injury prone, and at 30, we're still talking more about his potential than his track record. The Brewers core is stable enough for a couple of years that I think paying those guys big money was high risk for middling reward, and their payroll will always be too small to risk missing on one of those contracts.
That being said, I also wasn't a huge fan of the Cain deal, either. It restricts their financial flexibility for a guy that will be in decline during the middle/second half of the competitive window. I would've preferred to see them take a flyer on a guy like Cam Maybin (actually a year younger than Cain!), not have playing time concerns for Santana, and retain the cash.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 29, 2018, 03:17:24 PM
True but pitching was out there this offseason. For example, Jake Arrieta signed for less total money than Lorenzo Cain.
The Brewers are paying Lorenzo $16 per over 5. Jake is making $25 per over 3. David Stearns determined he wasn't worth it. So go argue with him.
Quote from: jsglow on March 29, 2018, 03:03:16 PM
Not to me. Small market teams have to grow their own pitching talent for the most part. This year that'll mean Suter, Woodruff and Webb when he's healthy. Not sure the Crew has enough but we'll see.
Sure, they have to grow homegrown pitching. However, the Brewers should have a solid team and not fortifying the rotation when you have a solid offensive core and can compete for a playoff spot doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Any SP free agent acquisition is going to come with risk but considering Nelson is hurt, Davies and Anderson don't have long track records of success, and the inconsistencies that come with youth, it seemed the Brewers missed a prime opportunity to add a solid starter.
I consider the Twins to be a decent comparison and they traded for Odorizzi and added Lynn. Those guys certainly aren't aces but they've been solid starters, for the most part.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 29, 2018, 04:35:57 PM
Sure, they have to grow homegrown pitching. However, the Brewers should have a solid team and not fortifying the rotation when you have a solid offensive core and can compete for a playoff spot doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Any SP free agent acquisition is going to come with risk but considering Nelson is hurt, Davies and Anderson don't have long track records of success, and the inconsistencies that come with youth, it seemed the Brewers missed a prime opportunity to add a solid starter.
I consider the Twins to be a decent comparison and they traded for Odorizzi and added Lynn. Those guys certainly aren't aces but they've been solid starters, for the most part.
They signed Chacin. He was 13-10 with a 3.89 last year.
Quote from: jsglow on March 29, 2018, 04:41:44 PM
They signed Chacin. He was 13-10 with a 3.89 last year.
Win lose no Matta?
Predictions
NL East: Nationals
NL Central: Cubs
NL West: Dodgers
NL Wild Cards: Giants, Brewers
NL Champion: Dodgers
AL East: Red Sox
AL Central: Indians
AL West: Astros
AL Wild Cards: Yankees, Twins
AL Champion: Astros
2018 World Series: Astros over Dodgers in 6
Quote from: jsglow on March 29, 2018, 04:41:44 PM
They signed Chacin. He was 13-10 with a 3.89 last year.
Potentially a solid pick up. But he pitched in SD and had a 6.53 ERA in his road starts. The Brewers just seem to be in a place where marginal wins are exceedingly important. It may work out but I found the lack of attention to the rotation bizarre.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 29, 2018, 02:42:18 PM
The play on the ball to the wall was tough - he should have just played it for a double. The base hit he overran was rough.
I think I'll let the season surpass a handful of innings before saying his fielding hasn't improved.
Pretty sure he'll still suck out there. But he'll hit some HRs, as he did later today, and Madden will keep throwing him out there.
I actually feel a little sorry for Schwarbs. He's a DH but he has to play outfield.
Quote from: MU82 on March 29, 2018, 10:32:17 PM
Pretty sure he'll still suck out there. But he'll hit some HRs, as he did later today, and Madden will keep throwing him out there.
I actually feel a little sorry for Schwarbs. He's a DH but he has to play outfield.
By all accounts he was a pretty good catcher as well.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 29, 2018, 06:38:19 PM
Potentially a solid pick up. But he pitched in SD and had a 6.53 ERA in his road starts. The Brewers just seem to be in a place where marginal wins are exceedingly important. It may work out but I found the lack of attention to the rotation bizarre.
This is what scares me absent a change to approach to induce ground balls. Not many players do regular damage at Petco (except Ryan Braun).
Quote from: MU82 on March 29, 2018, 10:32:17 PM
Pretty sure he'll still suck out there. But he'll hit some HRs, as he did later today, and Madden will keep throwing him out there.
I actually feel a little sorry for Schwarbs. He's a DH but he has to play outfield.
I'd be pretty disappointed if he can't learn to be just a below average LF (as opposed to a league worst LF). He certainly seems to have the athletic tools, he just doesn't have a clue out there.
Nationals
Cubs
Dodgers
Diamondbacks, Phillies
Red Sox
Cleveland
Astros
Yankees, Twins
Cubs over Dodgers
Nationals over Diamondbacks
Red Sox over Astros
Cleveland over Twins
Cubs over Red Sox in 6
Quote from: LAZER on March 30, 2018, 02:03:17 PM
I'd be pretty disappointed if he can't learn to be just a below average LF (as opposed to a league worst LF). He certainly seems to have the athletic tools, he just doesn't have a clue out there.
he looks like a newborn giraffe out there.
Quote from: GB Warrior on March 30, 2018, 01:36:23 PM
This is what scares me absent a change to approach to induce ground balls. Not many players do regular damage at Petco (except Ryan Braun).
:o
Let me say it. 'Ladies and gentlemen, your FIRST PLACE Milwaukee Brewers!' ;D
Quote from: jsglow on March 31, 2018, 09:32:52 AM
Let me say it. 'Ladies and gentlemen, your FIRST PLACE Milwaukee Brewers!' ;D
Let's all be Chubs fans...Brewers magic number is 160!
Anyone else surprised Brewers playoff odds on fangraphs was 18% heading into opening day? Seems low.
Quote from: LAZER on March 31, 2018, 11:02:56 AM
Anyone else surprised Brewers playoff odds on fangraphs was 18% heading into opening day? Seems low.
Seems about right to me based on their starting pitchers.
Quote from: jsglow on March 31, 2018, 09:32:52 AM
Let me say it. 'Ladies and gentlemen, your FIRST PLACE Milwaukee Brewers!' ;D
the Cubs are running out of time...full panic mode.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on March 31, 2018, 11:49:11 AM
the Cubs are running out of time...full panic mode.
Not quite. When they start calling games due to rain on 75 degree sunny days then they are in panic mode.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 31, 2018, 12:03:26 PM
Not quite. When they start calling games due to rain on 75 degree sunny days then they are in panic mode.
Your hatred for the Cubs inspires me
Quote from: LAZER on March 31, 2018, 12:27:47 PM
Your hatred for the Cubs inspires me
He's basically become a meme.
Quote from: LAZER on March 31, 2018, 12:27:47 PM
Your hatred for the Cubs inspires me
Is something I said inaccurate or...?
Quote from: wadesworld on March 31, 2018, 12:37:30 PM
Is something I said inaccurate or...?
Nope, I just get a kick out of your loathing of the Cubs. I find it funny.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 31, 2018, 12:37:30 PM
Is something I said inaccurate or...?
I mean it was a high of 64 that day and it wasn't sunny and the forecast called for rain but don't let facts get in your way.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 31, 2018, 01:13:53 PM
I mean it was a high of 64 that day and it wasn't sunny and the forecast called for rain but don't let facts get in your way.
The sun was out that afternoon. But sure.
I've never seen a game called that early and end up with a rainout where there was no rain.
Glad you're here to set the record straight though. Definitely a reasonably called game. It happens like every day in the MLB. Weather cancellations for games where there is no precipitation and no dangerous weather conditions. Pretty reasonable that if any weather forecast out there shows any chance of rain baseball games should definitely be called, especially 4 hours before the game when there are no signs of that rain that day.
Leave it to Cubs fans to believe that. Although in their defense not ALL of them are like VBMG.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 31, 2018, 01:23:13 PM
The sun was out that afternoon. But sure.
I've never seen a game called that early and end up with a rainout where there was no rain.
Glad you're here to set the record straight though. Definitely a reasonably called game. It happened like every day in the MLB. Weather cancellations for games where there is no precipitation and no dangerous weather conditions. Pretty reasonable that if any weather forecast out there shows any chance of rain baseball games should definitely be called, especially 4 hours before the game when there are no signs of that rain that day.
Leave it to Cubs fans to believe that. Although in their defense not ALL of them are like VBMG.
Did I say the game should have been called, genius?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 31, 2018, 01:13:53 PM
I mean it was a high of 64 that day and it wasn't sunny and the forecast called for rain but don't let facts get in your way.
All true. But it sure was funny. And if I recall correctly, when the Crew had to bus in for the one game make-up, they put a butt whippin' on the Cubs. :)
Look, I get it. The Cubs are very likely to win the division again and could make another deep playoff run. But it's been an interesting adjustment for Cubs fans. For a lifetime they were the lovable losers so everyone outside Cub nation sort of pulled for them. Now, almost nobody outside of Cub nation does. Rather, we all like to poke fun. And so it goes........
Anyway, it should be a good season with the Cubs, Crew and Birds all darn competitive.
Quote from: jsglow on March 31, 2018, 01:28:17 PM
All true. But it sure was funny. And if I recall correctly, when the Crew had to bus in for the one game make-up, they put a butt whippin' on the Cubs. :)
Look, I get it. The Cubs are very likely to win the division again and could make another deep playoff run. But it's been an interesting adjustment for Cubs fans. For a lifetime they were the lovable losers so everyone outside Cub nation sort of pulled for them. Now, almost nobody outside of Cub nation does. Rather, we all like to poke fun. And so it goes........
Anyway, it should be a good season with the Cubs, Crew and Birds all darn competitive.
So is that why they are now so thin-skinned?
Quote from: jsglow on March 31, 2018, 01:28:17 PM
All true. But it sure was funny. And if I recall correctly, when the Crew had to bus in for the one game make-up, they put a butt whippin' on the Cubs. :)
Look, I get it. The Cubs are very likely to win the division again and could make another deep playoff run. But it's been an interesting adjustment for Cubs fans. For a lifetime they were the lovable losers so everyone outside Cub nation sort of pulled for them. Now, almost nobody outside of Cub nation does. Rather, we all like to poke fun. And so it goes........
Anyway, it should be a good season with the Cubs, Crew and Birds all darn competitive.
Yeah, the Cubs should have waited to call it and there was clearly some gamesmanship there. I just like giving Wades crap because he's so predictable and usually wrong.
Quote from: #bansultan on March 31, 2018, 01:36:01 PM
So is that why they are now so thin-skinned?
(http://thebitchywaiter.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lucille-portable.gif)
Cubs fans are incredibly thin skinned.
So are fans of every other team.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 31, 2018, 01:23:13 PM
The sun was out that afternoon. But sure.
I've never seen a game called that early and end up with a rainout where there was no rain.
Glad you're here to set the record straight though. Definitely a reasonably called game. It happens like every day in the MLB. Weather cancellations for games where there is no precipitation and no dangerous weather conditions. Pretty reasonable that if any weather forecast out there shows any chance of rain baseball games should definitely be called, especially 4 hours before the game when there are no signs of that rain that day.
Leave it to Cubs fans to believe that. Although in their defense not ALL of them are like VBMG.
I was at the game the day before and it was miserable weather, I was astounded when they called it the next day considering what they played in the day before and the fact that well, it never rained and wasn't showing any indication it would.
Last year I started to take a shot of titos everytime wades talked about the sun out or a cubs player using roids (a double if arrieta)
My liver may not live to see 2019. Surprisingly what I thought would be a break in the winter turned into one of the hardest seasons for my liver.
Quote from: #UnleashFroling on March 29, 2018, 11:15:05 PM
By all accounts he was a pretty good catcher as well.
??????
You couldn't possibly be talking about Schwarber. By all accounts he was a horrible catcher that was destined to DH.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 29, 2018, 02:41:04 PM
Why add Cain and Yelich and then do basically nothing with the rotation? Yeah, they added Chacin but that clearly seems to be a weakness of the team. Seemed odd to me.
Yeah, super weird. Going all in on the lineup and just not doing anything in the rotation is baffling in a lot of ways. Especially when someone like Lynn was so darn cheap.
Quote from: #UnleashFroling on March 31, 2018, 03:24:43 PM
Last year I started to take a shot of titos everytime wades talked about the sun out or a cubs player using roids (a double if arrieta)
My liver may not live to see 2019. Surprisingly what I thought would be a break in the winter turned into one of the hardest seasons for my liver.
Arrietta roided his ass off and the results were outstanding for him. Good for him.
The Chubs tried to break the Brewers momentum by calling a sun out game. Unfortunately for the Chubs the Brewers came and smoked them up in the makeup game. But the sun out game being rescheduled when it was did create a more difficult schedule down the stretch so they got what they wanted. I wonder if the PED user Arrietta was scheduled to be on the bump for the original game or the makeup game. I also wonder if the PED user Sammy Sosa was in the stands for the makeup game. Or maybe the PED user Kerry Wood was in the stands? Wait nevermind he had a baby face and threw a curveball, just a coincidence he came up at the height of anabolic steroids, consistently threw 100 mph, and was injury prone throughout his career.
Here's to hoping you don't have family plans for Easter tomorrow. Lots of water tonight. And if the sun's out I hope your Chubbies don't have their game called!
Jake Arrietta...steroids.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 31, 2018, 05:36:48 PM
Arrietta roided his ass off and the results were outstanding for him. Good for him.
The Chubs tried to break the Brewers momentum by calling a sun out game. Unfortunately for the Chubs the Brewers came and smoked them up in the makeup game. But the sun out game being rescheduled when it was did create a more difficult schedule down the stretch so they got what they wanted. I wonder if the PED user Arrietta was scheduled to be on the bump for the original game or the makeup game. I also wonder if the PED user Sammy Sosa was in the stands for the makeup game. Or maybe the PED user Kerry Wood was in the stands? Wait nevermind he had a baby face and threw a curveball, just a coincidence he came up at the height of anabolic steroids, consistently threw 100 mph, and was injury prone throughout his career.
Here's to hoping you don't have family plans for Easter tomorrow. Lots of water tonight. And if the sun's out I hope your Chubbies don't have their game called!
Jake Arrietta...steroids.
(http://colognoisseur.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/calvin-klein-obsessed-for-men-e1499118342937.png)
Momentum, wow.
wades, as a guy who lived in Chicago for 16 years and spent the entire time making fun of the Cubbies, you crack me up.
But you are starting to sound like Ners bringing up Dawson, Traci and zone defense no matta the subject.
159.
Wonder if Arrieta took his steroids with him to Philly.
This Brewers team will be fun to watch this year. Lot of questions in the rotation, but the offense is going to be exciting with Cain and Yelich at the top of the order.
Quote from: buckchuckler on March 31, 2018, 05:32:07 PM
Yeah, super weird. Going all in on the lineup and just not doing anything in the rotation is baffling in a lot of ways. Especially when someone like Lynn was so darn cheap.
Not really. Both Yelich and Cain are long term plays. They can see how the season develops and determine if they want to trade some assets to acquire pitching.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 01, 2018, 06:39:30 AM
Not really. Both Yelich and Cain are long term plays. They can see how the season develops and determine if they want to trade some assets to acquire pitching.
Disagree. They're clearly planning on being competitive and have already tried to trade for pitching.
Players like Cain also don't typically age well and it's not like the Cubs window is closing.
Again, I feel like the Twins are a decent comparison in the AL. They're expected to contend for a wild card spot, lost Santana for a while, but went out and signed Lynn and traded for Odorizzi, neither of whom was expensive in money or prospects.
The value of another one or two right now could be huge for the Brewers.
Nothing he has done so far has given me any reason whatsoever to doubt Stearns. He seems to know what he's doing.
I'm fairly confident that if the Brewers found any free agent pitchers worth the money they would've gone out and signed one. I highly doubt they went into the offseason with no intentions of improving the rotation if they felt someone worth the investment was out there.
Wades does hit on it. Stearns is batting like .850. I'm hoping he's one of the great talent/cost ratio evaluators in the game.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 01, 2018, 08:58:58 AM
Disagree. They're clearly planning on being competitive and have already tried to trade for pitching.
Players like Cain also don't typically age well and it's not like the Cubs window is closing.
Again, I feel like the Twins are a decent comparison in the AL. They're expected to contend for a wild card spot, lost Santana for a while, but went out and signed Lynn and traded for Odorizzi, neither of whom was expensive in money or prospects.
The value of another one or two right now could be huge for the Brewers.
But what do Lance Lynn and Jake Odorizzi really get you? Giving Lynn and Odorizzi max credit, they're about a combined 7.0 WAR. A bearish outlook on the Brewers options calls them replacement level. Its tough to say that difference vaults the Brewers in front of the Cubs, so you're spending that prospect capital and $$ to make the wild card a near certainty. Then you probably don't pitch either of those guys in the wild card game anyway - Nelson is probably a better option. If you win that game, do both of them even pitch in the NLDS? If so, I'm not optimistic about the chances of Anderson-Lynn-Odorizzi to win a series. I just don't think the opportunity cost of those guys vs. retaining more flexibility for future moves is worth it.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 01, 2018, 10:31:23 AM
But what do Lance Lynn and Jake Odorizzi really get you? Giving Lynn and Odorizzi max credit, they're about a combined 7.0 WAR. A bearish outlook on the Brewers options calls them replacement level. Its tough to say that difference vaults the Brewers in front of the Cubs, so you're spending that prospect capital and $$ to make the wild card a near certainty. Then you probably don't pitch either of those guys in the wild card game anyway - Nelson is probably a better option. If you win that game, do both of them even pitch in the NLDS? If so, I'm not optimistic about the chances of Anderson-Lynn-Odorizzi to win a series. I just don't think the opportunity cost of those guys vs. retaining more flexibility for future moves is worth it.
The point is getting to the playoffs, even if it's the wild card game. Anything can happen. Lynn cost $12 million for one year, which is a drop in the bucket. The prospect capital to acquire Odorizzi was next to nothing. And I don't mean it had to be one of those two guys, either. Alex Cobb could have also been a nice pick up, although I was surprised he got 4/60 in that market.
Shoulder injuries for pitchers are serious so there's no guarantee Nelson comes back at the level he was performing at last season.
I agree Lynn and Odorizzi are flawed pitchers and they could both stink (although if they were in the NL I assume they'd be solid). Even if winning the division is unlikely the Brewers are still competing with the DBacks, Rockies, Cards, and Mets for the two WC spots. One win could easily be the difference between a wild card or nothing.
I'm a Cubs fan so I'm fine with Milwaukee rolling out what currently looks like a mediocre rotation.
Opinions, please?
Yesterday, trailing 7-0 in the 9th inning, the Orioles catcher bunted for a base hit with 1 out in the 9th. The Twins were in a shift at the time.
After the game, several Twins players whined about how it was unethical to bunt in that situation. I am wondering why.
Why is it OK for the Twins to shift their defense to try to stop a base hit, but it is wrong for an opposing hitter to try to beat the shift? And, with nobody on base, there is only one job for a hitter - get on base. There is no other reason to even walk up to the plate if he is not trying to get on base.
If the Twins are going to whine over something like this, why aren't they advocating to cancel the 9th inning completely in a 7-0 game? Is that any different than whining that the opposing player is trying to get on base.
On another topic, has any manager in history ever done a worse job in his first couple games than Gabe Kapler?
Being in a shift is the exact opposite of waving the white flag, bunt away.
Quote from: Jockey on April 02, 2018, 09:39:42 AM
Opinions, please?
Yesterday, trailing 7-0 in the 9th inning, the Orioles catcher bunted for a base hit with 1 out in the 9th. The Twins were in a shift at the time.
After the game, several Twins players whined about how it was unethical to bunt in that situation. I am wondering why.
Why is it OK for the Twins to shift their defense to try to stop a base hit, but it is wrong for an opposing hitter to try to beat the shift? And, with nobody on base, there is only one job for a hitter - get on base. There is no other reason to even walk up to the plate if he is not trying to get on base.
If the Twins are going to whine over something like this, why aren't they advocating to cancel the 9th inning completely in a 7-0 game? Is that any different than whining that the opposing player is trying to get on base.
On another topic, has any manager in history ever done a worse job in his first couple games than Gabe Kapler?
Smart play by the catcher. All of these shifts are "cute" but I agree, encourages the hitter to counter what the D is giving him.
Quote from: Jockey on April 02, 2018, 09:39:42 AM
Opinions, please?
Yesterday, trailing 7-0 in the 9th inning, the Orioles catcher bunted for a base hit with 1 out in the 9th. The Twins were in a shift at the time.
After the game, several Twins players whined about how it was unethical to bunt in that situation. I am wondering why.
Why is it OK for the Twins to shift their defense to try to stop a base hit, but it is wrong for an opposing hitter to try to beat the shift? And, with nobody on base, there is only one job for a hitter - get on base. There is no other reason to even walk up to the plate if he is not trying to get on base.
If the Twins are going to whine over something like this, why aren't they advocating to cancel the 9th inning completely in a 7-0 game? Is that any different than whining that the opposing player is trying to get on base.
On another topic, has any manager in history ever done a worse job in his first couple games than Gabe Kapler?
"Unwritten rules" are stupid.
But this isn't really an "unwritten rule."
So it's even dumber.
Quote from: Jockey on April 02, 2018, 09:39:42 AM
Opinions, please?
Yesterday, trailing 7-0 in the 9th inning, the Orioles catcher bunted for a base hit with 1 out in the 9th. The Twins were in a shift at the time.
After the game, several Twins players whined about how it was unethical to bunt in that situation. I am wondering why.
Why is it OK for the Twins to shift their defense to try to stop a base hit, but it is wrong for an opposing hitter to try to beat the shift? And, with nobody on base, there is only one job for a hitter - get on base. There is no other reason to even walk up to the plate if he is not trying to get on base.
If the Twins are going to whine over something like this, why aren't they advocating to cancel the 9th inning completely in a 7-0 game? Is that any different than whining that the opposing player is trying to get on base.
On another topic, has any manager in history ever done a worse job in his first couple games than Gabe Kapler?
Yeah the Twinsbare being silly. Shifting, especially against not too tier power hitters, begs to be bunted against. If you are going to have an exploitable weakness if your defense, you shouldn't be surprised if it is exploited.
And Kapler has been embarrassing. I think he is over thinking it.
Smart play by the hitter. Embarrassing whining by the Twins.
Quote from: Jockey on April 02, 2018, 09:39:42 AM
Opinions, please?
Yesterday, trailing 7-0 in the 9th inning, the Orioles catcher bunted for a base hit with 1 out in the 9th. The Twins were in a shift at the time.
After the game, several Twins players whined about how it was unethical to bunt in that situation. I am wondering why.
Why is it OK for the Twins to shift their defense to try to stop a base hit, but it is wrong for an opposing hitter to try to beat the shift? And, with nobody on base, there is only one job for a hitter - get on base. There is no other reason to even walk up to the plate if he is not trying to get on base.
If the Twins are going to whine over something like this, why aren't they advocating to cancel the 9th inning completely in a 7-0 game? Is that any different than whining that the opposing player is trying to get on base.
On another topic, has any manager in history ever done a worse job in his first couple games than Gabe Kapler?
Good for the Orioles catcher.
I think too many in baseball overthink stuff today. Twins should have played it straight up. And the pitcher should be throwing mostly fastballs over the plate. If you're not doing that expect the opposition to maximize every opportunity too.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 02, 2018, 10:09:41 AM
"Unwritten rules" are stupid.
But this isn't really an "unwritten rule."
So it's even dumber.
This is my exact stance.
Also ... I remember Kent Hrbek bunting for a couple of doubles against the shift. I can't remember if it was the 9th inning of a 7-0 game, nor would it matter to me if it was.
Hell, I'd do this if the opposing pitcher had a perfect game against me with a 7-0 lead in the 9th, and I wouldn't feel the least bit guilty about doing it.
Which leads me to a basketball reference. When you're 5 possessions behind with 30 seconds to go stop the freakin' fouling! And we don't need the refs to agonize over a possession decision for 5 minutes! It's a 2 hour drive home for me.
I will give a coach one pass on that so he can get the walk-ons in.
There is no unwritten rule about not bunting in the 9th. Unless the pitcher is throwing a no hitter or a perfect game. That'll get ya plunked.
Got pretty much the replies I expected.
And I am proud to start a topic where Scoopers aren't arguing ;D
And, shouldn't Chance Sisco be a bounty hunter in Star Wars rather than a ball player? He and Jett Bandy would make a good team.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 01, 2018, 11:02:27 AM
The point is getting to the playoffs, even if it's the wild card game. Anything can happen. Lynn cost $12 million for one year, which is a drop in the bucket. The prospect capital to acquire Odorizzi was next to nothing. And I don't mean it had to be one of those two guys, either. Alex Cobb could have also been a nice pick up, although I was surprised he got 4/60 in that market.
...
I agree Lynn and Odorizzi are flawed pitchers and they could both stink (although if they were in the NL I assume they'd be solid). Even if winning the division is unlikely the Brewers are still competing with the DBacks, Rockies, Cards, and Mets for the two WC spots. One win could easily be the difference between a wild card or nothing.
Your counterpoint to my "just the wild card" is right. Its tough to see the Brewers being favorites vs the Cubs at any time during their competitive window short of big injuries to the Cubs core, so that isn't a very good reason for them to not make moves. But I think that also highlights the importance that all of the Brewers significant expenditures are high impact. If they had signed Lynn to his Twins deal, he would represent about 12% of their payroll this year, and he would be their third highest player (currently that's Chacin). They currently sit at $89M. At their five-year peak starting with 2011 payroll was $94M, $116M, $88M, $113M, $100M.
I swear I want this to stay a baseball-centric conversation and not turn into the whole "Brewers fans are the best because their team is poorer than the Cubs" thing. But rumor had it that Attanasio operated the team at a loss for some of those high payroll years. No idea if that's actually true, but it probably hints that his payroll ceiling is around $120M. As they sit today, that means that Cobb's 57/4 is a no go - Cobb + Lynn = $116M and is nowhere near a world series team. That's why I'm fine with them waiting on pitching - would've been nice this year, but if they get into the wrong deal for multiple years of $10M or more, it absolutely destroys their financial flexibility. (That being said, Odorizzi for very little prospect capital would have been fine.)
Dozier's explanation today makes him look even sillier (and who thought that was possible):
While even some Twins fans wondered why the star second baseman and several of his teammates would make an issue of Sisco's bunt, noting the Twins could have removed the shift if they felt their lead was safe, Dozier said critics are missing the point.
The Orioles didn't hold Ryan LaMarre at first base after his two-out pinch single in the top of the ninth.
"When they didn't hold our runner on, they conceded to the fact they didn't want us to steal, so we didn't steal," Dozier said. "We could have very easily stolen and put up more runs, so therefore in return you don't bunt. That's what everybody is missing in this whole thing."
https://www.twincities.com/2018/04/02/brian-dozier-explains-what-critics-are-missing-in-flap-over-chance-sisco-bunt/
Quote from: #bansultan on April 02, 2018, 10:09:41 AM
"Unwritten rules" are stupid.
But this isn't really an "unwritten rule."
So it's even dumber.
Agreed.
Here is another unwritten rule: "Don't whine about him bunting, but pluck him in the head the next time you face him."
Quote from: Pakuni on April 02, 2018, 12:32:07 PM
Dozier's explanation today makes him look even sillier (and who thought that was possible):
While even some Twins fans wondered why the star second baseman and several of his teammates would make an issue of Sisco's bunt, noting the Twins could have removed the shift if they felt their lead was safe, Dozier said critics are missing the point.
The Orioles didn't hold Ryan LaMarre at first base after his two-out pinch single in the top of the ninth.
"When they didn't hold our runner on, they conceded to the fact they didn't want us to steal, so we didn't steal," Dozier said. "We could have very easily stolen and put up more runs, so therefore in return you don't bunt. That's what everybody is missing in this whole thing."
https://www.twincities.com/2018/04/02/brian-dozier-explains-what-critics-are-missing-in-flap-over-chance-sisco-bunt/
Playing behind the runner with two outs is not uncommon. The Twins really need to stop whining.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 02, 2018, 01:15:29 PM
Here is another unwritten rule: "Don't whine about him bunting, but pluck him in the head the next time you face him."
Respond to a good play with a dirty play?
Um..... OK.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 02, 2018, 01:15:29 PM
Here is another unwritten rule: "Don't whine about him bunting, but pluck him in the head the next time you face him."
Dumb and dangerous.
Quote from: Jockey on April 02, 2018, 03:22:56 PM
Respond to a good play with a dirty play?
Um..... OK.
MLB "unwritten rule" repeated five times a week. Don't "shoot" the messenger...
The Cubs sure look like ass so far.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 02, 2018, 05:32:32 PM
MLB "unwritten rule" repeated five times a week. Don't "shoot" the messenger...
My apologies. I thought you were making a suggestion rather than pointing out the way things used to be done.
Luckily, that unwritten rule isn't "enforced" nearly as much anymore.
Quote from: Jockey on April 02, 2018, 07:31:56 PM
My apologies. I thought you were making a suggestion rather than pointing out the way things used to be done.
Luckily, that unwritten rule isn't "enforced" nearly as much anymore.
No worries. Our points are the same: Baseball's "unwritten rules" are all stupid. Fortunately, they legislated the "in the area" unwritten rule on double plays at 2nd base.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 02, 2018, 10:59:29 AM
There is no unwritten rule about not bunting in the 9th. Unless the pitcher is throwing a no hitter or a perfect game. That'll get ya plunked.
And that is stupid and wrong.
One of these days, some manager's pitcher is gonna kill or maim an opponent while enforcing an unwritten rule.
Beyond that, I personally can remember 2 games in which a team rallied from 8+ run deficits in the 9th inning. You need baserunners to do it.
Hell, I remember Bochte getting all bent out of shape when somebody bunted against one of his San Diego pitchers who had a no-hitter when it was 2-0. I mean, the guy gets on and brings the tying run to the plate! "You don't bunt against a no-hitter!" Bochte whined. No, you try to win the effen game. So stupid.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 02, 2018, 09:58:54 PM
Missing Arietta's roids.
You sir need to buy me a new bottle.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 02, 2018, 10:40:40 PM
You sir need to buy me a new bottle.
I'll have to check with the Cubs weather man first to make sure it's not going to downpour on me on my trip to the liquor store.
Cubs have struck out 58 times - most EVER by an NL team through 5 games. They also are 2-3 against 2 of the worst teams in baseball. And while they've gotten some good pitching, neither of their 2 aces made it out of the 5th inning.
It's early. It doesn't really matter yet. They're still the best team in their division. But yikes!
Quote from: wadesworld on April 02, 2018, 11:05:39 PM
I'll have to check with the Cubs weather man first to make sure it's not going to downpour on me on my trip to the liquor store.
Keep it going - you're hilarious!
Quote from: MU82 on April 02, 2018, 11:24:52 PM
Cubs have struck out 58 times - most EVER by an NL team through 5 games. They also are 2-3 against 2 of the worst teams in baseball. And while they've gotten some good pitching, neither of their 2 aces made it out of the 5th inning.
It's early. It doesn't really matter yet. They're still the best team in their division. But yikes!
Yeah, they've looked bad. To be fair, that includes a 17 inning game - there are 6 teams that have a worse strikeout rate so far.
They also have the 7th most hard contact so far, so part of the struggles seem fluky. Their continued inability to drive runners in from 3rd with less than two out has been maddening, however.
Personally, I consider Hendricks the de-facto ace at this point.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 03, 2018, 10:51:06 AM
Yeah, they've looked bad. To be fair, that includes a 17 inning game - there are 6 teams that have a worse strikeout rate so far.
They also have the 7th most hard contact so far, so part of the struggles seem fluky. Their continued inability to drive runners in from 3rd with less than two out has been maddening, however.
Personally, I consider Hendricks the de-facto ace at this point.
I guess the ace shouldn't be decided by the $$$ but by the performance. So sure, Hendricks it is.
Pitchers like Lester tend to blindside teams by getting old quickly. Not saying that's what has happened, but it's a possibility. Last season: 4.33 ERA, 1.323 WHIP, 3.0 K/W, 8.9 H/9, 26 HR, 1.3 HR/9 - all either his worst since becoming a full-time MLB starter or almost his worst. 180 IP lowest for him.
He turns 34 this summer and has $85M guaranteed coming to him over next 4 years (with $15M possible in 2021 if he's not bought out for $10M that year).
Not that money matters to the Cubbies anymore!
Quote from: MU82 on April 03, 2018, 12:41:58 PM
I guess the ace shouldn't be decided by the $$$ but by the performance. So sure, Hendricks it is.
Pitchers like Lester tend to blindside teams by getting old quickly. Not saying that's what has happened, but it's a possibility. Last season: 4.33 ERA, 1.323 WHIP, 3.0 K/W, 8.9 H/9, 26 HR, 1.3 HR/9 - all either his worst since becoming a full-time MLB starter or almost his worst. 180 IP lowest for him.
He turns 34 this summer and has $85M guaranteed coming to him over next 4 years (with $15M possible in 2021 if he's not bought out for $10M that year).
Not that money matters to the Cubbies anymore!
Yeah, one of the reasons they signed Lester is because they felt he'd age well. It will be interesting to see his performance this season to see if he bounces back at all. The Cubs don't win the World Series without him so the contract is already worth it, IMO.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 03, 2018, 02:18:16 PM
The Cubs don't win the World Series without him so the contract is already worth it, IMO.
100%. I wasn't questioning the signing one iota.
If his arm falls off tonight and he never throws another pitch for the Cubs, it will have been worth it.
The idea for any team is to win a championship. That goes quadruple for a team with the Cubs' history.
That's why Reinsdorf and Krause's decision to throw away future Bulls championships was tragic.
Lester usually goes through a dead arm period in Spring Training, seems like he's now carrying that into 2018 as he did in 2017. Ultimately, he's going to regress into a 4-5 starter at the end of the contract, I'm fine with that. I think that's how these pitchers should be treated under the current CBA.
Quote from: MU82 on April 03, 2018, 02:37:15 PM
100%. I wasn't questioning the signing one iota.
If his arm falls off tonight and he never throws another pitch for the Cubs, it will have been worth it.
The idea for any team is to win a championship. That goes quadruple for a team with the Cubs' history.
That's why Reinsdorf and Krause's decision to throw away future Bulls championships was tragic.
Agreed.
Then they blew up the Bulls I hated it but it didn't register immediately just how awful of a decision that was.
Dope
Fun stat from Brewers - Cards game:
1st time in MLB history that a game started AND ended on back-to-back jacks.
Baseball has a way of evening out over the course of a season, so I won't put too much stock in the late game heroics (close games involve a lot of luck that will wane), but this team is going to be fun
One of the things I think the Crew CAN count on is the minimal strikeouts we'll see out of #1 and #2. Cain and Yelich are going to be on base so much more than the Brewers have been used to out of those two batting positions. Also, this appears to be a very good defensive team with those two plus Orlando and Manny right at the tops in the league for their positions. They really appear to be a very fundamentally sound team. But of course pitching is always the key.
Quote from: jsglow on April 04, 2018, 07:06:03 AM
One of the things I think the Crew CAN count on is the minimal strikeouts we'll see out of #1 and #2. Cain and Yelich are going to be on base so much more than the Brewers have been used to out of those two batting positions. Also, this appears to be a very good defensive team with those two plus Orlando and Manny right at the tops in the league for their positions. They really appear to be a very fundamentally sound team. But of course pitching is always the key.
Agree with all of this. Cain's 3 strikeouts last night notwithstanding (why aren't we booing him like the Yankees booed Stanton?), Cain's and Yelich's plate discipline is refreshing to watch. Yelich especially just acts with such intention and is content to dump the ball where the pitch will let him. As exciting as the likes of Gomez were, we're not going to see the same streakiness out of the top of this lineup.
Quote from: GB Warrior on April 04, 2018, 08:28:23 AM
Agree with all of this. Cain's 3 strikeouts last night notwithstanding (why aren't we booing him like the Yankees booed Stanton?), Cain's and Yelich's plate discipline is refreshing to watch. Yelich especially just acts with such intention and is content to dump the ball where the pitch will let him. As exciting as the likes of Gomez were, we're not going to see the same streakiness out of the top of this lineup.
Its a fun contrarian play from Stearns, too. At a time when most of the league is going full-on three true outcomes and obsessed with launch angle up and down the lineup, the Brewers spent big in money and prospect capital to pair really good, traditional table setters at the top of their lineup.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 04, 2018, 04:13:44 PM
Its a fun contrarian play from Stearns, too. At a time when most of the league is going full-on three true outcomes and obsessed with launch angle up and down the lineup, the Brewers spent big in money and prospect capital to pair really good, traditional table setters at the top of their lineup.
Very smart move.
We will all see how the launch angle con will work once the ball is no longer juiced. Lots and lots of deep fly outs.
Quote from: GB Warrior on April 04, 2018, 08:28:23 AM
Agree with all of this. Cain's 3 strikeouts last night notwithstanding (why aren't we booing him like the Yankees booed Stanton?), Cain's and Yelich's plate discipline is refreshing to watch. Yelich especially just acts with such intention and is content to dump the ball where the pitch will let him. As exciting as the likes of Gomez were, we're not going to see the same streakiness out of the top of this lineup.
...because he did not sign for 325 million.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 04, 2018, 04:13:44 PM
Its a fun contrarian play from Stearns, too. At a time when most of the league is going full-on three true outcomes and obsessed with launch angle up and down the lineup, the Brewers spent big in money and prospect capital to pair really good, traditional table setters at the top of their lineup.
I'm a casual baseball fan. Is the focus these days on HRs completely? That's the message I get when we talk launch angles.
Has anyone sat behind the expanded netting? I went to a game but was in the second level. However, I totally forgot it was expanded and could barely tell.
Wondering if anyone who sat in those seats had their views obstructed since there was a lot of handwringing when the change was announced.
It's amazing that Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, Mays, Jackson, Schmidt, Griffey, Bonds and Thome could ever hit more than pop-ups or weak grounders without being able to study launch angles.
I wonder what the exit velocity was when they hit the ball out ... actually, I don't.
Quote from: MU82 on April 05, 2018, 09:57:48 AM
It's amazing that Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Musial, Mantle, Aaron, Mays, Jackson, Schmidt, Griffey, Bonds and Thome could ever hit more than pop-ups or weak grounders without being able to study launch angles.
I wonder what the exit velocity was when they hit the ball out ... actually, I don't.
Some folks are naturals, i.e., their swings are already built around optimized angles. They didn't need to study it, but I'm sue they worked hard to maintain or improve. Not everyone is like that, though, just like some guys keep their bats in the proper plane longer and have higher BA's. Studying (and coaching) can help.
Should be a fun, interesting series at Wrigley North this weekend. I'll be up there on Saturday.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 05, 2018, 01:03:17 PM
Should be a fun, interesting series at Wrigley North this weekend. I'll be up there on Saturday.
Wouldn't have pegged you as anything other than a Saturday night Cubs fan heading up to "Wrigley North."
Quote from: wadesworld on April 05, 2018, 09:16:04 PM
Wouldn't have pegged you as anything other than a Saturday night Cubs fan heading up to "Wrigley North."
Dumb, even for you.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 05, 2018, 09:54:04 PM
Exhibit A.
Yep, going up to Milwaukee to catch a game on a Saturday pegs me as a specific kind of fan.
Wrigley North was in jest.
What a turd.
Pretty sure Knebel is out a long time. Ugly leg injury.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 05, 2018, 10:26:59 PM
Pretty sure Knebel is out a long time. Ugly leg injury.
Looked pretty bad. Who steps in as the closer? Barnes, Hader, Jeffress, Albers.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 05, 2018, 10:33:52 PM
Looked pretty bad. Who steps in as the closer? Barnes, Hader, Jeffress, Albers.
From the looks of it, Perez.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 05, 2018, 09:16:04 PM
Wouldn't have pegged you as anything other than a Saturday night Cubs fan heading up to "Wrigley North."
Is there something wrong with a fan of a team going to see his team play on a weekend 90 miles from their home? Or is there something wrong with calling it Wrigley north? Considering the cubs are 70% of the attendance and the Brewers literally charge more for parking at cubs games I think it's fine to call it the cubs second home.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 05, 2018, 10:52:13 PM
Is there something wrong with a fan of a team going to see his team play on a weekend 90 miles from their home? Or is there something wrong with calling it Wrigley north? Considering the cubs are 70% of the attendance and the Brewers literally charge more for parking at cubs games I think it's fine to call it the cubs second home.
Shocking.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 05, 2018, 10:52:13 PM
Is there something wrong with a fan of a team going to see his team play on a weekend 90 miles from their home? Or is there something wrong with calling it Wrigley north? Considering the cubs are 70% of the attendance and the Brewers literally charge more for parking at cubs games I think it's fine to call it the cubs second home.
I think they would be happy to call it their 1st home - at least compared to that dump on Addison.
Quote from: Jockey on April 05, 2018, 11:55:56 PM
I think they would be happy to call it their 1st home - at least compared to that dump on Addison.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 05, 2018, 10:33:52 PM
Looked pretty bad. Who steps in as the closer? Barnes, Hader, Jeffress, Albers.
Straight to disabled list. Hammie. From the looks of it, I am guessing "he gowne ".
Rough crowd last night, maybe 1/2 full.
Sat behind the new netting. Very, very nice. Cannot believe it took this long. You barely notice it. Makes it an issue for the players throwing balls to kids, but that's an easy trade off.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on April 06, 2018, 07:13:06 AM
Rough crowd last night, maybe 1/2 full.
I was surprised how empty it was. Official attendance of 24,310 (55% of capacity). I don't think the point of that "Wisconsin residents only" ticket promotion was to have a half-full stadium with Brew fans still outnumbered.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 06, 2018, 10:52:12 AM
I was surprised how empty it was. Official attendance of 24,310 (55% of capacity). I don't think the point of that "Wisconsin residents only" ticket promotion was to have a half-full stadium with Brew fans still outnumbered.
The whole Wisconsin residents only thing was stupid as hell. At best it made them look petty as crap. At best, they learned how many more Cub fans reside in southern Wisconsin compared to Brewers.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on April 06, 2018, 07:13:06 AM
Sat behind the new netting. Very, very nice. Cannot believe it took this long. You barely notice it. Makes it an issue for the players throwing balls to kids, but that's an easy trade off.
Does the netting extend beyond the dugouts now? I'll be sitting in that area tomorrow. Just curious.
There is a bunch of construction on 94 so those coming from out of town might want to head to the stadium a little earlier and figure out which detour to take.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 05, 2018, 10:33:52 PM
Looked pretty bad. Who steps in as the closer? Barnes, Hader, Jeffress, Albers.
Oof didn't look good. He's a big cat, too, so that's a lot of torque on that hammy. Same one that seemed to bother him during spring training, so that compounds the pessimism.
I think Hader probably has the best pure stuff of those guys, and would be the favorite to get a bulk of the saves? He and Jennings are the only two lefties in the pen, though, so Counsell will probably still use Hader earlier in games if splits call for it. So where Hader is unavailable, probably Barnes? Jeffress has been pretty inconsistent ever since he was originally traded to Texas.
I think it's Jeffress. He has been a closer and for whatever reason, he's a different pitcher when with the Brewers.
I think Hader is too good to just hold off until the ninth. I see them wanting him to be in an Andrew Miller type of role.
WI residents only is for an obvious and very legitimate reason, to keep WI drivers safe. Good for the Brewers.
Not surprising the stadium was half full. People go to Brewers games to tailgate. When there's a high temperature in the 30s tailgate attendance, and thus game attendance, will be down.
With the Brewers losing 2 in a row, injuries to Yelich and Knebel, and a 35 and sunny forecast for tomorrow maybe we'll see a rainout in Milwaukee tomorrow if the Brewers struggle again tonight.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 06, 2018, 12:15:04 PM
WI residents only is for an obvious and very legitimate reason, to keep WI drivers safe. Good for the Brewers.
Not surprising the stadium was half full. People go to Brewers games to tailgate. When there's a high temperature in the 30s tailgate attendance, and thus game attendance, will be down.
With the Brewers losing 2 in a row, injuries to Yelich and Knebel, and a 35 and sunny forecast for tomorrow maybe we'll see a rainout in Milwaukee tomorrow if the Brewers struggle again tonight.
You really need some new material. It would also help if it was funny. I'm rooting for you!
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on April 03, 2018, 02:49:09 PM
Lester usually goes through a dead arm period in Spring Training, seems like he's now carrying that into 2018 as he did in 2017. Ultimately, he's going to regress into a 4-5 starter at the end of the contract, I'm fine with that. I think that's how these pitchers should be treated under the current CBA.
Well, Lester's arm certainly didn't fall off. He pretty much stoned the Crew.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 06, 2018, 12:15:04 PM
WI residents only is for an obvious and very legitimate reason, to keep WI drivers safe. Good for the Brewers.
Not surprising the stadium was half full. People go to Brewers games to tailgate. When there's a high temperature in the 30s tailgate attendance, and thus game attendance, will be down.
With the Brewers losing 2 in a row, injuries to Yelich and Knebel, and a 35 and sunny forecast for tomorrow maybe we'll see a rainout in Milwaukee tomorrow if the Brewers struggle again tonight.
I guess I had to start my tailgate early.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 06, 2018, 12:01:10 PM
Oof didn't look good. He's a big cat, too, so that's a lot of torque on that hammy. Same one that seemed to bother him during spring training, so that compounds the pessimism.
I think Hader probably has the best pure stuff of those guys, and would be the favorite to get a bulk of the saves? He and Jennings are the only two lefties in the pen, though, so Counsell will probably still use Hader earlier in games if splits call for it. So where Hader is unavailable, probably Barnes? Jeffress has been pretty inconsistent ever since he was originally traded to Texas.
Hader might make sense, though it would obviously detract from his ability to throw multiple innings. If our starting rotation keeps struggling, he might be more valuable as a starter. That said, I'd rather have him as a reliever until he has a reliable third pitch - teams will begin keying on him the 2nd and 3rd times around if he doesn't have an offspeed pitch. He's our best option as a closer in my mind.
As far as balance of lefties, the Brewers are actually pretty lefty-rich. We have Miley and Boone Logan who are rehabbing, plus Jennings. There are options to replace Hader in the pen if that's the route you go.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 06, 2018, 12:40:22 PM
You really need some new material. It would also help if it was funny. I'm rooting for you!
It must be like a little brother syndrome. A lot of brewer fans want to make some huge show with cub fans. I guess they just feel lost because no one actually considers them true rivals.
Like last night they had an interview with brewer players where they explained how electric it felt at Miller when the cubs came to town.
Then you got fans and Wisconsin media pushing this "i94" rivalry. I would say it's worse then the DePaul fans thinking marquette is actually rivals.
Like sorry to break the news wades but we got the cards. That's an actual rivalry.
Quote from: GB Warrior on April 06, 2018, 12:54:25 PM
Hader might make sense, though it would obviously detract from his ability to throw multiple innings. If our starting rotation keeps struggling, he might be more valuable as a starter. That said, I'd rather have him as a reliever until he has a reliable third pitch - teams will begin keying on him the 2nd and 3rd times around if he doesn't have an offspeed pitch. He's our best option as a closer in my mind.
As far as balance of lefties, the Brewers are actually pretty lefty-rich. We have Miley and Boone Logan who are rehabbing, plus Jennings. There are options to replace Hader in the pen if that's the route you go.
From fantasy baseball perspective I'm kind of hoping Fat Albers gets a shot as he's been used in a set up role and Hader and Barnes were both already owned in my leagues.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 06, 2018, 01:12:50 PM
It must be like a little brother syndrome. A lot of brewer fans want to make some huge show with cub fans. I guess they just feel lost because no one actually considers them true rivals.
Like last night they had an interview with brewer players where they explained how electric it felt at Miller when the cubs came to town.
Then you got fans and Wisconsin media pushing this "i94" rivalry. I would say it's worse then the DePaul fans thinking marquette is actually rivals.
Like sorry to break the news wades but we got the cards. That's an actual rivalry.
I actually think a real rivalry can and should blossom if the Brewers continue to be competitive. Of course the Cards will always continue to be the #1 true rival but there's no rule saying you can't have more than one. The atmosphere at Miller is fun when the game sells out, is full of opposing fans, and the teams are competitive.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 06, 2018, 01:12:50 PM
It must be like a little brother syndrome. A lot of brewer fans want to make some huge show with cub fans. I guess they just feel lost because no one actually considers them true rivals.
Like last night they had an interview with brewer players where they explained how electric it felt at Miller when the cubs came to town.
Then you got fans and Wisconsin media pushing this "i94" rivalry. I would say it's worse then the DePaul fans thinking marquette is actually rivals.
Like sorry to break the news wades but we got the cards. That's an actual rivalry.
I think a more accurate school would be Wisconsin
Quote from: The Deane Team on April 06, 2018, 02:15:23 PM
I think a more accurate school would be Wisconsin
I disagree I think our biggest actual rivals now is Wisconsin. DePaul has been irrelevant for years. We don't ever play Louisville or Notre dame anymore.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 06, 2018, 11:14:24 AM
The whole Wisconsin residents only thing was stupid as hell. At best it made them look petty as crap. At best, they learned how many more Cub fans reside in southern Wisconsin compared to Brewers.
As I heard in MKE today from friends at breakfast: "The Brewers are becoming more Bucks-like, it seems". This move and a few others like Sausage-gate have alienated local fans. MP was a ghost-town last night. I have been at maybe 95% of Cubs-Brewers games over the past 15-20 years, and have never seen it so empty. Like northern Illinois where there a ton of Packers fans, SE Wisconsin has a lot of Cubs fans. Not really smart business.
Winning will cure ills, but the games are close to sell outs Saturday and Sunday so I guess we found a way to buy tickets from Brewers fans. Watch out for all us roided up Cubs fans spending cash in MKE on O-Cedars.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 06, 2018, 02:34:54 PM
As I heard in MKE today from friends at breakfast: "The Brewers are becoming more Bucks-like, it seems". This move and a few others like Sausage-gate have alienated local fans. MP was a ghost-town last night. I have been at maybe 95% of Cubs-Brewers games over the past 15-20 years, and have never seen it so empty. Like northern Illinois where there a ton of Packers fans, SE Wisconsin has a lot of Cubs fans. Not really smart business.
Winning will cure ills, but the games are close to sell outs Saturday and Sunday so I guess we found a way to buy tickets from Brewers fans. Watch out for all us roided up Cubs fans spending cash in MKE on O-Cedars.
This was a dumb thing to do.
But Sausage-gate? How should that alienate anyone?
Quote from: #bansultan on April 06, 2018, 02:37:55 PM
This was a dumb thing to do.
But Sausage-gate? How should that alienate anyone?
I think it was the way Sausage-Gate went down. Clement's was kept in the dark, and then wasn't allowed to match Johnsonville as the deal was already closed.
Johnsonville > Klements
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 06, 2018, 02:43:21 PM
I think it was the way Sausage-Gate went down. Clement's was kept in the dark, and then wasn't allowed to match Johnsonville as the deal was already closed.
OK. Is anyone really upset with that?
Quote from: #bansultan on April 06, 2018, 02:54:16 PM
OK. Is anyone really upset with that?
If sausage choice causes someone to not root for a team, were they really even a fan to begin with?
Quote from: #bansultan on April 06, 2018, 02:54:16 PM
OK. Is anyone really upset with that?
I guess. It was in the local media for quite some time. Tradition? Maybe the locals can chime in...
I'm a local and haven't heard it brought up in months. I don't think anyone cares to be honest. Now if they switched to Bud, that would cause an uproar.
In honor of Ueck, they should just adopt Usingers and call it a day.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 06, 2018, 02:43:21 PM
I think it was the way Sausage-Gate went down. Clement's was kept in the dark, and then wasn't allowed to match Johnsonville as the deal was already closed.
aint' Sausage Gate the name for wadesworld's front door?
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 06, 2018, 01:12:50 PM
It must be like a little brother syndrome. A lot of brewer fans want to make some huge show with cub fans. I guess they just feel lost because no one actually considers them true rivals.
Like last night they had an interview with brewer players where they explained how electric it felt at Miller when the cubs came to town.
Then you got fans and Wisconsin media pushing this "i94" rivalry. I would say it's worse then the DePaul fans thinking marquette is actually rivals.
Like sorry to break the news wades but we got the cards. That's an actual rivalry.
Ahh, Cubs fans pretending like they're too big for...well, anyone. Now that is funny stuff.
I love people who say stuff like that. "Like sorry to break the news wades but we got the cards. That's an actual rivalry." You sound like a 6th grade girl. So congrats on the rivalry?
Anybody insecure enough that they need to tell people they aren't good enough to be their rival probably shouldn't be talking about a little brother syndrome...
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 06, 2018, 06:41:39 PM
aint' Sausage Gate the name for wadesworld's front door?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/vgUFOWBwBkziE/200.gif)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 06, 2018, 11:36:36 AM
Does the netting extend beyond the dugouts now? I'll be sitting in that area tomorrow. Just curious.
It's through the dugouts, not sure if it's further down the line.
All of section 113 has nets.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 06, 2018, 12:40:22 PM
You really need some new material. It would also help if it was funny. I'm rooting for you!
You're right. The material is old and no longer very funny. The fact that you continue to react is what is incredibly funny.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 06, 2018, 07:55:01 PM
Ahh, Cubs fans pretending like they're too big for...well, anyone. Now that is funny stuff.
I love people who say stuff like that. "Like sorry to break the news wades but we got the cards. That's an actual rivalry." You sound like a 6th grade girl. So congrats on the rivalry?
Anybody insecure enough that they need to tell people they aren't good enough to be their rival probably shouldn't be talking about a little brother syndrome...
Not much of a rivalry either, Cards been kicking Cub ass for a hundred years.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on April 06, 2018, 10:09:55 PM
Not much of a rivalry either, Cards been kicking Cub ass for a hundred years.
Who's going to tell him?
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on April 06, 2018, 10:09:55 PM
Not much of a rivalry either, Cards been kicking Cub ass for a hundred years.
Willie McGee is not walking through that door anytime soon....
Take it easy on the Cubs fans.
Most of them survived a few decades when the only thing they could crow about was their attendance.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 07, 2018, 10:36:27 AM
Take it easy on the Cubs fans.
Most of them survived a few decades when the only thing they could crow about was their attendance.
And their overrated, drunk pay by play guy.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 07, 2018, 10:38:35 AM
And their overrated, drunk pay by play guy.
Hall of Famer NSSA, ASA, NAB and Ford C. Frick award by MLB Hall of Fame. Nothing overrated at all.
What does pay by play mean? Too many angry people out there.
The Mouthbreathers from both teams went at it Friday Night...
http://www.totalprosports.com/2018/04/07/chicago-cubs-fans-punch-push-two-brewers-fans-in-stands-during-game-video/
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 07, 2018, 09:03:35 PM
The Mouthbreathers from both teams went at it Friday Night...
http://www.totalprosports.com/2018/04/07/chicago-cubs-fans-punch-push-two-brewers-fans-in-stands-during-game-video/
That shove at the end down the stairs truly deserves an ass beating
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 07, 2018, 05:22:23 PM
Hall of Famer NSSA, ASA, NAB and Ford C. Frick award by MLB Hall of Fame. Nothing overrated at all.
He was awful.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 07, 2018, 09:37:20 PM
He was awful.
You know whats truly awful? A movie about the Brewers where their ultimate goal is to come in 3rd place.... in the NL central. Like the entire basis of the movie revolves around them getting the magical achievement of grabbing 3rd place. And they couldn't even be bothered to pronounce Waukesha correctly.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 07, 2018, 09:37:20 PM
He was awful.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l2Sq5Y7ofkti5uw0w/giphy.gif)
Shout out to Dave Martinez for his first ejection as a manager today. Rendon got tossed without saying a single word (bat flip of disgust) and Davey voiced his displeasure. He could use a little work on the dirt kick but the effort was there.
https://streamable.com/h031e
Can Miller Park get some blinds for the upper deck windows like they have at the AL? Those shadows today looked awful on television especially when the camera had to make a quick transition on a ball hit from a sun covered infield to the dark outfield.
I've seen lots of other parks with shadows (especially Wrigley) but never any as extreme as today was. Is that common at Miller Park? I don't watch any Brewer games aside from when they play the Cubs.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on April 08, 2018, 12:10:43 AM
Can Miller Park get some blinds for the upper deck windows like they have at the AL? Those shadows today looked awful on television especially when the camera had to make a quick transition on a ball hit from a sun covered infield to the dark outfield.
I've seen lots of other parks with shadows (especially Wrigley) but never any as extreme as today was. Is that common at Miller Park? I don't watch any Brewer games aside from when they play the Cubs.
It's normally not that big a problem as the combo of a closed roof, bright sun, and 3p starting time is incredibly rare at Miller. When it's a 1p start on Sunday, you'll get a band across the infield on a sunny day with the roof typically open unless it's cold. Plus the inability of the camera lense to handle both bright and shadow magnified the affect on TV. It's been discussed through the years and rejected.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 07, 2018, 11:36:50 PM
You know whats truly awful? A movie about the Brewers where their ultimate goal is to come in 3rd place.... in the NL central. Like the entire basis of the movie revolves around them getting the magical achievement of grabbing 3rd place. And they couldn't even be bothered to pronounce Waukesha correctly.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 08, 2018, 07:53:35 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I believe this is in reference to Mr. 3000.
Tough loss for the Brewers last night. Our defense in the ninth was horrific.
Quote from: cheebs09 on April 08, 2018, 07:57:28 AM
I believe this is in reference to Mr. 3000.
Never saw it. Really don't know anything about it.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 08, 2018, 10:24:22 AM
Never saw it. Really don't know anything about it.
+1. And I'm guessing the Brewers didn't write the movie, but maybe I'm wrong?
Quote from: wadesworld on April 08, 2018, 10:28:15 AM
+1. And I'm guessing the Brewers didn't write the movie, by a maybe I'm wrong?
We'd probably know more about the movie if they'd celebrate it every game by having a series of B-list celebrities singing about it.
I'll take the 5-4 road trip.
(https://giant.gfycat.com/EnchantingNaturalElephantseal.webm)
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 08, 2018, 11:01:57 PM
I'll take the 5-4 road trip.
https://giant.gfycat.com/EnchantingNaturalElephantseal.webm
The Cubs' home opener has been postponed until tomorrow. The snow is supposed to stop by early afternoon though. Sounds like more Cubbie mind games! I wonder if Hurdle and Huntington will cry to the media about it ;)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 09, 2018, 11:15:20 AM
The Cubs' home opener has been postponed until tomorrow. The snow is supposed to stop by early afternoon though. Sounds like more Cubbie mind games! I wonder if Hurdle and Huntington will cry to the media about it ;)
I guess snow is similar to mid 60s and sunny.
Sounds like a Cubs fan indeed.
PS Your material is old get over it.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 09, 2018, 11:15:20 AM
The Cubs' home opener has been postponed until tomorrow. The snow is supposed to stop by early afternoon though. Sounds like more Cubbie mind games! I wonder if Hurdle and Huntington will cry to the media about it ;)
At least as of now, the Sox game, a whole 10 miles away, is still proceeding as planned.
Any opinions here on Ohtani?
My thought was that it was a lotta hype - as baseball is prone to do. But, this may be the best start for a rookie in baseball history.
He currently ranks in the top 5 in MLB for both 4-seam fastball velocity from the mound and exit velocity from the plate. Unprecedented - although we don't know where The Babe ranked at the same point in his career (for obvious reasons). Don't think he can keep it up, but what are opinions here?
Please, Wades, no "juiced" comments ;)
MLB schedules a day off following opening day, making it easier to reschedule Opening Day festivities, (it's why the White Sox didn't play on Friday).
idk this might be unplayable
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/983367811245453312
It's still snowing at Wrigley. It hasn't snowed on the south side since the morning drive.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on April 09, 2018, 02:35:24 PM
It's still snowing at Wrigley. It hasn't snowed on the south side since the morning drive.
I'm a couple of blocks away. No, it's not. It was an awful decision.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 12:38:35 PM
I guess snow is similar to mid 60s and sunny.
Sounds like a Cubs fan indeed.
PS Your material is old get over it.
You really put the "u" in turd, Wades.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 09, 2018, 02:41:10 PM
I'm a couple of blocks away. No, it's not. It was an awful decision.
It's lake effect snow. It was snowing, it will be snowing again shortly.
It's the right decision, Tuesday is off exactly for this. Almost 50 degrees and dry tomorrow? Great weather.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on April 09, 2018, 03:02:53 PM
It's lake effect snow. It was snowing, it will be snowing again shortly.
It's the right decision, Tuesday is off exactly for this. Almost 50 degrees and dry tomorrow? Great weather.
Disagree.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 09, 2018, 02:41:10 PM
I'm a couple of blocks away. No, it's not. It was an awful decision.
Do you expect them to plow the entire field?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 09, 2018, 03:20:21 PM
Do you expect them to plow the entire field?
Yeah, it wasn't a blizzard. This game could have been played without issue.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 09, 2018, 03:20:21 PM
Do you expect them to plow the entire field?
The White Sox are playing without a problem (well, other than their inability to score runs). No plow necessary.
I'm sure the 800 Sox fans in attendance are enjoying the game this afternoon. What's with the fascination with the weather around here? Shouldn't we still be talking about how the Cubs owned the Brewers this past weekend at Wrigley North...and how bad the Brewers looked while doing so?
Quote from: Jockey on April 09, 2018, 01:27:39 PM
Any opinions here on Ohtani?
My thought was that it was a lotta hype - as baseball is prone to do. But, this may be the best start for a rookie in baseball history.
He currently ranks in the top 5 in MLB for both 4-seam fastball velocity from the mound and exit velocity from the plate. Unprecedented - although we don't know where The Babe ranked at the same point in his career (for obvious reasons). Don't think he can keep it up, but what are opinions here?
Please, Wades, no "juiced" comments ;)
He has obviously been great. Honestly, I lowered my expectations for him after his horrible spring. Clearly I was wrong to do that. It is fun as can be. The guy is throwing smoke and hitting dingers. What more could you want?
By the way, on a completely unrelated note, holy moly is Mallex Smith fast.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 04:22:07 PM
I'm sure the 800 Sox fans in attendance are enjoying the game this afternoon. What's with the fascination with the weather around here? Shouldn't we still be talking about how the Cubs owned the Brewers this past weekend at Wrigley North...and how bad the Brewers looked while doing so?
Oh, look, a Cubs fan yakking about attendance.
(https://m.popkey.co/aa9afb/v0065_s-200x150.gif)
Last Tuesday's Tigers Royals game was a miserable experience. 38 and spitting. Ushers went around in the second inning and cleared out the upper deck so that they could close down everything up there. Officially 15K tickets sold. Probably 1200 actually there. Thankful for the waterproof fleece lined blanket that the family of four could all fit under. Players were miserable, too. 2:17 to play. Thank goodness.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 09, 2018, 04:46:23 PM
Oh, look, a Cubs fan yakking about attendance.
(https://m.popkey.co/aa9afb/v0065_s-200x150.gif)
Oh look...a Brewers fan that has nothing to say about their own team...
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 05:06:54 PM
Oh look...a Brewers fan that has nothing to say about their own team...
I'm a Brewers fan?
News to me.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 09, 2018, 05:25:17 PM
I'm a Brewers fan?
News to me.
Lol. Unfortunately for them, Cubs fans don't make it hard to identify.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 05:30:34 PM
Lol. Unfortunately for them, Cubs fans don't make it hard to identify.
Yeah...I don't live here like you guys so not going to comb through your posts to figure out your allegiances.
Pakuni you seem to be hung up on Cubs fans talking attendance...whoever your team is must not be that interesting.
Wades 10 years later and your routine is the same....nice series this past wknd....and why would any Cubs fan want to not make it clear which team we root for...is that what you do?
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 05:34:42 PM
Yeah...I don't live hear like you guys so not going to comb through your posts to figure out your allegiances.
Pakuni you seem to be hung up on Cubs fans talking attendance...whoever your team is must not be that interesting.
Wades 10 years later and your routine is the same....nice series this past wknd....and why would any Cubs fan want to not make it clear which team we root for...is that what you do?
To be fair all wades does is whine about roids this roids that meanwhile his teams got an actual PED user
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 09, 2018, 05:43:42 PM
To be fair all wades does is whine about roids this roids that meanwhile his teams got an actual PED user
Got it...does he ever talk about his team that got destroyed by the Cubs this past weekend?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 09, 2018, 03:48:49 PM
The White Sox are playing without a problem (well, other than their inability to score runs). No plow necessary.
They actually plowed the field.
I'm not usually a fan of wacky stats, but this is pretty irresistible ...
Giancarlo Stanton already has struck out more this season than Joe DiMaggio did in the entire 1941 season, when DiMag had 30 HR, 125 RBI, a 1.083 OPS and a 56-game hitting streak.
In fact, Stanton already had struck out more than DiMag EVEN BEFORE Stanton struck out 5x yesterday!
But I'm guessing that Stanton's 3 HR this season did have better exit velocity than DiMag's homers did. And that's real important.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 09, 2018, 05:43:42 PM
To be fair all wades does is whine about roids this roids that meanwhile his teams got an actual PED user
Whine? More like laugh that FIBs think their team actually doesn't "got an actual PED user." I don't know how many times I can say here that I wish more WI professional athletes used PEDs. There's a reason athletes take them...they help. Clay Matthews used some roids, that was cool by me. Giannis probably did, I hope Thon gets on that same good stuff. This really isn't hard.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 05:45:16 PM
Got it...does he ever talk about his team that got destroyed by the Cubs this past weekend?
Congrats on "destroying" the Brewers. We're 1/16th of the way into the season. Brewers should just fold the season. That half game lead the Chubbies have on them is just so insermountable.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 07:42:42 PM
Whine? More like laugh that FIBs think their team actually doesn't "got an actual PED user." I don't know how many times I can say here that I wish more WI professional athletes used PEDs. There's a reason athletes take them...they help. Clay Matthews used some roids, that was cool by me. Giannis probably did, I hope Thon gets on that same good stuff. This really isn't hard.
Congrats on "destroying" the Brewers. We're 1/16th of the way into the season. Brewers should just fold the season. That half game lead the Chubbies have on them is just so insermountable.
Let's not forget about the South Korean, shall we.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 09, 2018, 07:45:27 PM
Let's not forget about the South Korean, shall we.
Absolutely. Him and Braun need to get back on the PEDs. Definitely need more production from them.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 07:42:42 PM
Whine? More like laugh that FIBs think their team actually doesn't "got an actual PED user." I don't know how many times I can say here that I wish more WI professional athletes used PEDs. There's a reason athletes take them...they help. Clay Matthews used some roids, that was cool by me. Giannis probably did, I hope Thon gets on that same good stuff. This really isn't hard.
Congrats on "destroying" the Brewers. We're 1/16th of the way into the season. Brewers should just fold the season. That half game lead the Chubbies have on them is just so insermountable.
Same. Tired. Routine. At least you're consistent....and seemingly miserable.
They weren't destroyed? It'll be more enjoyable to watch them fold on their own as the season plays out.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 08:00:13 PM
Same. Tired. Routine. At least you're consistent....and seemingly miserable.
They weren't destroyed? It'll be more enjoyable to watch them fold on their own as the season plays out.
Again, congrats on your series win in mid April to move a half game up on the Brewers. Awesome job Cubbies!
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 08:18:09 PM
Again, congrats on your series win in mid April to move a half game up on the Brewers. Awesome job Cubbies!
Ha...there you go....appreciate the kind words and, even better,...no adolescent nicknames...maybe you have grown up.
And congrats to the Brewers for committing as many errors as runs scored over the four games.
Always enjoyable going back to the alma mater for home games in Milwaukee.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 08:55:02 PM
Ha...there you go....appreciate the kind words and, even better,...no adolescent nicknames...maybe you have grown up.
And congrats to the Brewers for committing as many errors as runs scored over the four games.
Always enjoyable going back to the alma mater for home games in Milwaukee.
Glad you enjoyed your time in Milwaukee. Congrats on your half game lead on the Brewers despite how awful you apparently think they are!
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
Glad you enjoyed your time in Milwaukee. Congrats on your half game lead on the Brewers despite how awful you apparently think they are!
Thanks....city and campus look great. I could care less about our lead over the Brewers, we've played 9 games. Just glad to take 3 out of 4 and doing so without Rizzo for the last 3. 21-9 in our last 30 at Wrigley North...wish we could play there more.
Hope the Brewers get their defense in order and find a closer otherwise I'm afraid it'll be yet another lost season in Milwaukee...and after paying Aramis Ramirez $3M this year maybe they'll continue their aggressiveness in free agency for next year.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
Glad you enjoyed your time in Milwaukee. Congrats on your half game lead on the Brewers despite how awful you apparently think they are!
Dork.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 09:50:44 PM
Thanks....city and campus look great. I could care less about our lead over the Brewers, we've played 9 games. Just glad to take 3 out of 4 and doing so without Rizzo for the last 3. 21-9 in our last 30 at Wrigley North...wish we could play there more.
Hope the Brewers get their defense in order and find a closer otherwise I'm afraid it'll be yet another lost season in Milwaukee...and after paying Aramis Ramirez $3M this year maybe they'll continue their aggressiveness in free agency for next year.
Because the Cubbies have had so few lost years in their history.
Cubs fans are hilarious. I love it.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 09:56:11 PM
Because the Cubbies have had so few lost years in their history.
Cubs fans are hilarious. I love it.
We all know you're not laughing. These last few years must be horrible for you....I should've come around to see it....love that you have to keep bringing up "history".....knowing that the Cubs have been the most successful team in baseball the last three years...but, yes, we all know about the WS drought....but then again....that's also "history."
I'm sure the Brewers will get one some day....
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 10:14:34 PM
We all know you're not laughing. These last few years must be horrible for you....I should've come around to see it....love that you have to keep bringing up "history".....knowing that the Cubs have been the most successful team in baseball the last three years...but, yes, we all know about the WS drought....but then again....that's also "history."
I'm sure the Brewers will get one some day....
We only have about 65 years to play with to avoid the Cubbies drought. Congrats on your successful 3 seasons. Definitely wipes out 108 years.
Like I said, Cubs fans are hilarious.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 09, 2018, 10:16:22 PM
We only have about 65 years to play with to avoid the Cubbies drought. Congrats on your successful 3 seasons. Definitely wipes out 108 years.
Like I said, Cubs fans are hilarious.
Like I said....we all know you're not laughing....all of us.
At this rate you'll need all 65. Yes....the World Series title goes a long way in wiping out those awful years....hope you get to experience one some day....obviously harder for small market, low payroll teams but definitely possible. Would be a great story.
Enjoy that Miller Park parking lot this summer. Can you close games?
You two need to duke it out, your tired and uninspired "argument" leaves no options.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 10:31:47 PM
Like I said....we all know you're not laughing....all of us.
At this rate you'll need all 65. Yes....the World Series title goes a long way in wiping out those awful years....hope you get to experience one some day....obviously harder for small market, low payroll teams but definitely possible. Would be a great story.
Enjoy that Miller Park parking lot this summer. Can you close games?
Notre Dame fans and Chicago Cubs fans. One in the same.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaXUjRTUMAAhXE1.jpg:large)
Oh my.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 09, 2018, 11:48:00 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaXUjRTUMAAhXE1.jpg:large)
Oh my.
I know this thread is ruined by the PED/weather talk because all I could focus on was the snow on the bushes. That's crazy. I'm heading down there for the Brewers series the first weekend in June. Hopefully it's almost that empty.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 09, 2018, 11:48:00 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaXUjRTUMAAhXE1.jpg:large)
Oh my.
Whenever baseball fans claim that a certain team should completely tear it down and rebuild like the Cubs and Astros, they should be shown this picture. Obviously the weather was huge factor, but even the Sox aren't drawing a crowd that embarrassingly small if they're putting a competitive team on the field.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 10, 2018, 08:21:49 AM
Whenever baseball fans claim that a certain team should completely tear it down and rebuild like the Cubs and Astros, they should be shown this picture. Obviously the weather was huge factor, but even the Sox aren't drawing a crowd that embarrassingly small if they're putting a competitive team on the field.
So it's better to be mediocre for a decade instead?
Quote from: #bansultan on April 10, 2018, 08:24:47 AM
So it's better to be mediocre for a decade instead?
I didn't say that. My point is that it's easy to say that a total teardown is the best way to go, but there are going to be some lean, ugly, money-losing seasons in there and it
may result in an extended championship window or it may result in, like you said, being mediocre for a decade. As an owner, would it be worth it to take that risk of tanking, losing money and hoping for the best or would you rather put butts in the seats, have a competitive team on the field, make some money and hope for the best?
I commend teams for taking the risk of rebuilding from the bottom up but it's not always going to be pretty, it's not always going to work and not all owners are going to want to take that risk.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 10, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
I didn't say that. My point is that it's easy to say that a total teardown is the best way to go, but there are going to be some lean, ugly, money-losing seasons in there and it may result in an extended championship window or it may result in, like you said, being mediocre for a decade. As an owner, would it be worth it to take that risk of tanking, losing money and hoping for the best or would you rather put butts in the seats, have a competitive team on the field, make some money and hope for the best?
I commend teams for taking the risk of rebuilding from the bottom up but it's not always going to be pretty, it's not always going to work and not all owners are going to want to take that risk.
I can definitely see both sides, but if I were an owner (assuming I see winning as somewhere between a good business proposition and a goal in its own right) I'd probably opt for the teardown. I think if you're anyone other than NYY, Bos, ChC, LAD or LAA (maybe NYM or SF?) the end of the road always ends in what is effectively a teardown. But if you do it on purpose, it doesn't last nearly as long. Granted, you never know, but looking at the White Sox roster and minor league system, I'd much rather be them than Detroit (though its certainly on ownership that they've tanked their payroll THIS much).
Detroit hung on as long as they possibly could, maybe to their credit, but now they only have the 20th ranked farm system in baseball (their top 2 prospects came in the Verlander and Wilson deals last year, so even that is sort of a teardown), have very little major league depth left from which to deal, owe Miggy $184M through 2023 (GAH!!) and Jordan Zimmerman $74M through 2020. They project to be very bad for a very long time - sorry Tower.
Now I also have a major issue with how Miami executed their teardown, because I don't think they got good value on the talent they shipped out. Getting the big contracts out the door has to be benefit 1.B. for teardowns to be in good faith, talent return has to be 1.A.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 10, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
I didn't say that. My point is that it's easy to say that a total teardown is the best way to go, but there are going to be some lean, ugly, money-losing seasons in there and it may result in an extended championship window or it may result in, like you said, being mediocre for a decade. As an owner, would it be worth it to take that risk of tanking, losing money and hoping for the best or would you rather put butts in the seats, have a competitive team on the field, make some money and hope for the best?
I commend teams for taking the risk of rebuilding from the bottom up but it's not always going to be pretty, it's not always going to work and not all owners are going to want to take that risk.
Monday's attendance had way more to do with a) weekday day game in early April and b) weather, than the product on the field. White Sox fans are overwhelmingly enthusiastic about the rebuild and content to live through a couple of very lean years for the expected payout in 2-3 seasons.
Also, don't assume the Sox are losing a lot of money on this. Their payroll ($72 million) is $50 million less than just three seasons ago, when their attendance was not much better.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 10, 2018, 09:20:54 AM
Monday's attendance had way more to do with a) weekday day game in early April and b) weather, than the product on the field. White Sox fans are overwhelmingly enthusiastic about the rebuild and content to live through a couple of very lean years for the expected payout in 2-3 seasons.
Also, don't assume the Sox are losing a lot of money on this. Their payroll ($72 million) is $50 million less than just three seasons ago, when their attendance was not much better.
Yes and yes. I'd guess teams are more likely to lose money when they are going all in than when they are tearing it down and rebuilding.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 10, 2018, 09:20:21 AM
I think if you're anyone other than NYY, Bos, ChC, LAD or LAA (maybe NYM or SF?) the end of the road always ends in what is effectively a teardown.
The ChC did a total teardown when Theo got there. Won 61, 66 and 73 games his first 3 years.
Even the Yankees went with youth to start the Jeter-Rivera Era. Of course, it took Steinbrenner getting suspended in the early 1990s for that process to start.
Quote from: MU82 on April 10, 2018, 10:25:22 AM
The ChC did a total teardown when Theo got there. Won 61, 66 and 73 games his first 3 years.
Even the Yankees went with youth to start the Jeter-Rivera Era. Of course, it took Steinbrenner getting suspended in the early 1990s for that process to start.
The Cubs with Theo at the helm have been a better small-market team than the Brewers were under Melvin. They just had to survive some of their ugly contracts to get there. Part of the reason why Stearns is so refreshing. Everything he does has been in the vein of sustainability.
Quote from: MU82 on April 09, 2018, 06:26:30 PM
I'm not usually a fan of wacky stats, but this is pretty irresistible ...
Giancarlo Stanton already has struck out more this season than Joe DiMaggio did in the entire 1941 season, when DiMag had 30 HR, 125 RBI, a 1.083 OPS and a 56-game hitting streak.
In fact, Stanton already had struck out more than DiMag EVEN BEFORE Stanton struck out 5x yesterday!
But I'm guessing that Stanton's 3 HR this season did have better exit velocity than DiMag's homers did. And that's real important.
Why are you putting baseball stuff here? Isn't this just a Cub/Brewer crap fest?
The perception of K's has changed so much and so quickly it is amazing. With the focus of baseball seemingly all on power K's are just a necessary evil, well maybe not even an evil at all, the price to play.
My favorite demonstration here is Nellie Fox. He struck out 216 times. In over 10,000 plate appearances. Aaron Judge struck out 208 times last season in 573 PA. The game has changed dramatically (yes I know, completely different players with different games, and a terrible comp, just used Judge because he led the league last year). Fox's career high in K's was 18--18!!! And that only happened once. So Stanton has K'd more this year than Fox ever did in a single season. He had 5 seasons (all with over 600 ABs) where he didn't even reach the teens in K's! That is crazy!
There should be a middle ground -- Fox never hit more than 6 HRs. K's are more damaging than other outs in many situations, productive outs are real (the Sox game could have been quite different yesterday with a couple of these). There are diminishing returns on the K's and who is absorbing them.There were a whole bunch of guys that K'd at a high rate last year, that weren't hitting homers at the rate Judge was. 25 guys K'd at least 150 times last year. 12 of them hit fewer than 30 HRs. 16 had a SLG% below .500. 12 had an OPS below .800 (68 guys had an OPS of .800 or better last year.). Of the 41 guys that hit 30 or more homers last year, all but 5 had an OPS over .800. Only 14 of the guys that hit 30 homers K'd more than 150 times, and 7 of those were the guys that tied at 30. There isn't necessarily a direct correlation between high K's and high power. The hitter matters.
To me, that kind of says some of the wrong guys are selling out for power. It is one thing for guys like Judge and Stanton to K a bunch, because there is a return on those K's in the power department.
K's are fun from a pitching perspective, but I think there will be a correction on this and contact will become more valued and K's will drop. It will just take some time, the game is cyclical and copycat to a degree... Or maybe it won't and I will look like a dinosaur for thinking this.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 10, 2018, 11:36:21 AM
Why are you putting baseball stuff here? Isn't this just a Cub/Brewer crap fest?
The perception of K's has changed so much and so quickly it is amazing. With the focus of baseball seemingly all on power K's are just a necessary evil, well maybe not even an evil at all, the price to play.
My favorite demonstration here is Nellie Fox. He struck out 216 times. In over 10,000 plate appearances. Aaron Judge struck out 208 times last season in 573 PA. The game has changed dramatically (yes I know, completely different players with different games, and a terrible comp, just used Judge because he led the league last year).
There should be a middle ground. K's are more damaging than other outs in many situations, productive outs are real (the Sox game could have been quite different yesterday with a couple of these). There are diminishing returns on the K's and who is absorbing them.There were a whole bunch of guys that K'd at a high rate last year, that weren't hitting homers at the rate Judge was. 25 guys K'd at least 150 times last year. 12 of them hit fewer than 30 HRs. 16 had a SLG% below .500. 12 had an OPS below .800 (68 guys had an OPS of .800 or better last year.). Of the 41 guys that hit 30 or more homers last year, all but 5 had an OPS over .800. Only 14 of the guys that hit 30 homers K'd more than 150 times, and 7 of those were the guys that tied at 30. There isn't necessarily a direct correlation between high K's and high power. The hitter matters.
To me, that kind of says some of the wrong guys are selling out for power. It is one thing for guys like Judge and Stanton to K a bunch, because there is a return on those K's in the power department.
K's are fun from a pitching perspective, but I think there will be a correction on this and contact will become more valued and K's will drop. It will just take some time, the game is cyclical and copycat to a degree... Or maybe it won't and I will look like a dinosaur for thinking this.
Tony Gwynn is another amazing strikeout stats guy.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 10, 2018, 08:21:49 AM
Whenever baseball fans claim that a certain team should completely tear it down and rebuild like the Cubs and Astros, they should be shown this picture. Obviously the weather was huge factor, but even the Sox aren't drawing a crowd that embarrassingly small if they're putting a competitive team on the field.
Not that the draw would have been huge either way, but the game start time was changed Sunday from a 7:10 start to a 1:10 to accommodate the weather.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 10, 2018, 11:36:21 AM
Why are you putting baseball stuff here? Isn't this just a Cub/Brewer crap fest?
The perception of K's has changed so much and so quickly it is amazing. With the focus of baseball seemingly all on power K's are just a necessary evil, well maybe not even an evil at all, the price to play.
My favorite demonstration here is Nellie Fox. He struck out 216 times. In over 10,000 plate appearances. Aaron Judge struck out 208 times last season in 573 PA. The game has changed dramatically (yes I know, completely different players with different games, and a terrible comp, just used Judge because he led the league last year). Fox's career high in K's was 18--18!!! And that only happened once. So Stanton has K'd more this year than Fox ever did in a single season. He had 5 seasons (all with over 600 ABs) where he didn't even reach the teens in K's! That is crazy!
There should be a middle ground -- Fox never hit more than 6 HRs. K's are more damaging than other outs in many situations, productive outs are real (the Sox game could have been quite different yesterday with a couple of these). There are diminishing returns on the K's and who is absorbing them.There were a whole bunch of guys that K'd at a high rate last year, that weren't hitting homers at the rate Judge was. 25 guys K'd at least 150 times last year. 12 of them hit fewer than 30 HRs. 16 had a SLG% below .500. 12 had an OPS below .800 (68 guys had an OPS of .800 or better last year.). Of the 41 guys that hit 30 or more homers last year, all but 5 had an OPS over .800. Only 14 of the guys that hit 30 homers K'd more than 150 times, and 7 of those were the guys that tied at 30. There isn't necessarily a direct correlation between high K's and high power. The hitter matters.
To me, that kind of says some of the wrong guys are selling out for power. It is one thing for guys like Judge and Stanton to K a bunch, because there is a return on those K's in the power department.
K's are fun from a pitching perspective, but I think there will be a correction on this and contact will become more valued and K's will drop. It will just take some time, the game is cyclical and copycat to a degree... Or maybe it won't and I will look like a dinosaur for thinking this.
I enjoyed reading about those Fox stats. Sure, none of it really "translates," but that doesn't make it uninteresting.
The reason I really like the DiMag stats is he was a great power hitter. I mean, he was a great all-around hitter, sure, but he had a ton of power. And he didn't have to strike out 200x a year to put his power into gear.
Must have been all the analytics he tirelessly studied until he got his launch angle just right!
Quote from: GB Warrior on April 10, 2018, 11:03:04 AM
The Cubs with Theo at the helm have been a better small-market team than the Brewers were under Melvin.
I guess I haven't seen Theo acting like a small market GM. Signings like Edwin Jackson, Jon Lester, Jason Heyward, Ben Zobrist, Yu Darvish, Tyler Chatwood and even John Lackey are not moves a small market team would or even could make.
A small market team would also probably not have traded away the prospect capital to acquire guys like Wilson and Quintana last season as the team control is much more valuable to teams that don't have big free agent budgets. Nor would a small market team have been able to eat some of the money the Cubs did to get rid of certain guys.
The Cubs are the big boys financially, and they know it, and they have been acting the part. Big signings weren't always a part of the strategy, but it is clear they have been for the last few years.
Quote from: MU82 on April 10, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
I enjoyed reading about those Fox stats. Sure, none of it really "translates," but that doesn't make it uninteresting.
The reason I really like the DiMag stats is he was a great power hitter. I mean, he was a great all-around hitter, sure, but he had a ton of power. And he didn't have to strike out 200x a year to put his power into gear.
Must have been all the analytics he tirelessly studied until he got his launch angle just right!
Absolutely. He is a great example. A couple of my other favorite examples (a couple of Sox of course) are Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee. Neither of those guys ever K'd 100 times in their careers. Magglio is actually a guy that sacrificed power later in his career to maintain his average.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 10, 2018, 12:36:58 PM
I guess I haven't seen Theo acting like a small market GM. Signings like Edwin Jackson, Jon Lester, Jason Heyward, Ben Zobrist, Yu Darvish, Tyler Chatwood and even John Lackey are not moves a small market team would or even could make.
A small market team would also probably not have traded away the prospect capital to acquire guys like Wilson and Quintana last season as the team control is much more valuable to teams that don't have big free agent budgets. Nor would a small market team have been able to eat some of the money the Cubs did to get rid of certain guys.
The Cubs are the big boys financially, and they know it, and they have been acting the part. Big signings weren't always a part of the strategy, but it is clear they have been for the last few years.
This is fair - I guess i was referring to the "tear down" where they could shed some of the bad salaries of the past (Soriano?) and reset while the young talent was still young and cheap. They're certainly going for it now with Darvish, Lester, Heyward, and it's an amplified version of 'going for it' than what a small-market team would do. And a big market team doesn't think about baseball in terms of cycles of contending and rebuilding, but that's how the Cubs have operated.
They've been relatively disciplined, but their moves this offseason is a sign that they know their window is now while Bryant, Rizzo, Addi, Schwarber, Contreras and Baez are cheap. When they (esp the first two) come due, this team will change dramatically.
I'm not sure if a team in the third largest city in the US can qualify as a small market team even if they play in a neighborhood
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 10, 2018, 12:43:23 PM
Absolutely. He is a great example. A couple of my other favorite examples (a couple of Sox of course) are Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee. Neither of those guys ever K'd 100 times in their careers. Magglio is actually a guy that sacrificed power later in his career to maintain his average.
Yep, they weren't whiffers. And to talk about another recent guy ...
When I was going a little research on the Hall of Fame candidates, what really jumped out at me was how little Vlad Guerrero struck out.
Here was a big-time power guy with two 40 HR seasons and six 30 HR seasons, averaged 34 HR and 113 RBI per 162 games, and had a reputation of being a guy who never met a pitch he didn't like to swing at.
Nevertheless, his career high in strikeouts was 95 - in his first season as a full-time player - and he only had one other season with more than 80.
Batted .318, OPS .931. Damn right he's a Hall of Famer ... unless his exit velocity wasn't quite up to par.
I'm generally as pro-sabermetric a guy as you'll find. I'm typically incredulous that anyone could call themselves anything else - after all, its information, and the more of it you have, the better positioned you are to make smart decisions.
But that the information is only valuable inasmuch as it is predictive of certain desired outcomes. I think launch angle, exit velocity, et. al. is useful, but it has to be contextualized. The desired outcome those things are measuring - likelihood of a home run - has to be balanced with the associated cost. Does an increase in launch angle or exit velocity correlate with higher K%? What does a change in launch angle do to a BABIP? I've got about 20 fangraphs articles languishing in my "to read" bookmarks pile, so I'm sure guys much smarter than me have covered this. But to to the uneducated observer, its beginning to seem like talent evaluators are falling in love with and maybe overvalue advanced power stats.
It's a different game now. DiMaggio wasn't facing guys throwing 95 and he certainly wasn't facing three or four fresh guys over the course of a game each throwing in the mid to uppers 90s. It is hard to string together hits against these types of pitchers so you have to sell out for power because one bomb after a walk is more likely to happen than a bunch of singles.
I guarantee if Stanton was facing the same guy (who doesn't touch the high 80s on the radar) four or five times a game he wouldn't be striking out a ton either.
I don't know what they can do about it, but three true outcomes baseball, even if it is effective, is dull to watch.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 10, 2018, 02:59:49 PM
I'm generally as pro-sabermetric a guy as you'll find. I'm typically incredulous that anyone could call themselves anything else - after all, its information, and the more of it you have, the better positioned you are to make smart decisions.
But that the information is only valuable inasmuch as it is predictive of certain desired outcomes. I think launch angle, exit velocity, et. al. is useful, but it has to be contextualized. The desired outcome those things are measuring - likelihood of a home run - has to be balanced with the associated cost. Does an increase in launch angle or exit velocity correlate with higher K%? What does a change in launch angle do to a BABIP? I've got about 20 fangraphs articles languishing in my "to read" bookmarks pile, so I'm sure guys much smarter than me have covered this. But to to the uneducated observer, its beginning to seem like talent evaluators are falling in love with and maybe overvalue advanced power stats.
Great post, Burrow. My thoughts are similar when it come to analytics. I think it may be getting overplayed at times (talking about you, Gabe Kapler), but it is a necessary part of today's game. As you said, more info is better.
Having said that, I don't know what to think about launch angle. I understand why guys want to maximize the proper angle - but we don't really know if it is what is necessarily driving the HR boom. The emphasis on launch angle has mirrored the juiced ball. Which is more responsible for the surge in HRs? I think it is the juiced ball more than guys adjusting launch angle and we will end up with tons of flyouts to the warning track if we ever go back to the old ball.?
Would be interested in your (or anyone else's) opinion.
Burrow, no need to apologize. I know all the numbers, know how they came to be, and agree. Mr I's need for a title before he died paired with Dombrowski's GM style guaranteed that when the tear down happened, it would be dramatic. I know which two free agent signings handcuffed them enough to keep them from signing Scherzer . (Fielder and Sanchez). I know the lack of home grown bats during DD's tenure forced the Cespedes/Porcello trade. I know which players were involved in the teammate-sleeping-with-teammate's-wife scandal which led to a series of personnel moves. I know the Tigers' history and how it created their future.
Quote from: MU82 on April 10, 2018, 02:41:29 PM
Yep, they weren't whiffers. And to talk about another recent guy ...
When I was going a little research on the Hall of Fame candidates, what really jumped out at me was how little Vlad Guerrero struck out.
Here was a big-time power guy with two 40 HR seasons and six 30 HR seasons, averaged 34 HR and 113 RBI per 162 games, and had a reputation of being a guy who never met a pitch he didn't like to swing at.
Nevertheless, his career high in strikeouts was 95 - in his first season as a full-time player - and he only had one other season with more than 80.
Batted .318, OPS .931. Damn right he's a Hall of Famer ... unless his exit velocity wasn't quite up to par.
I loved Vlad. I remember seeing him get a hit on a ball that was in the dirt--in the opposite batter's box.
Quote from: tower912 on April 10, 2018, 06:12:28 PM
Burrow, no need to apologize. I know all the numbers, know how they came to be, and agree. Mr I's need for a title before he died paired with Dombrowski's GM style guaranteed that when the tear down happened, it would be dramatic. I know which two free agent signings handcuffed them enough to keep them from signing Scherzer . (Fielder and Sanchez). I know the lack of home grown bats during DD's tenure forced the Cespedes/Porcelain trade. I know which players were involved in the teammate-sleeping-with-teammate's-wife scandal which led to a series of personnel moves. I know the Tigers' history and how it created their future.
Avi!
And I have to say, if I were in Mr. I's position, I would ha e gone all out as well and I can really appreciate his style. Having an owner that wants to win is a great thing. Teams like the Pirates, Marlins etc. could only wish for a dedicated owner.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 10, 2018, 06:15:28 PM
I loved Vlad. I remember seeing him get a hit on a ball that was in the dirt--in the opposite batter's box.
Saw a cool highlight reel about Vlad last year. All hits on pitches that bounced. It was fun as heck.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 10, 2018, 07:41:58 PM
Avi!
One of the few position players the Detroit farm system produced over the last 12 years. And there was really no choice but to trade him.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 10, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
It's a different game now. DiMaggio wasn't facing guys throwing 95 and he certainly wasn't facing three or four fresh guys over the course of a game each throwing in the mid to uppers 90s. It is hard to string together hits against these types of pitchers so you have to sell out for power because one bomb after a walk is more likely to happen than a bunch of singles.
I guarantee if Stanton was facing the same guy (who doesn't touch the high 80s on the radar) four or five times a game he wouldn't be striking out a ton either.
I don't know what they can do about it, but three true outcomes baseball, even if it is effective, is dull to watch.
Yeah ... if only DiMaggio and Gehrig could have been as good as Stanton and Judge.
Quote from: Jockey on April 09, 2018, 01:27:39 PM
Any opinions here on Ohtani?
My thought was that it was a lotta hype - as baseball is prone to do. But, this may be the best start for a rookie in baseball history.
He currently ranks in the top 5 in MLB for both 4-seam fastball velocity from the mound and exit velocity from the plate. Unprecedented - although we don't know where The Babe ranked at the same point in his career (for obvious reasons). Don't think he can keep it up, but what are opinions here?
Please, Wades, no "juiced" comments ;)
Let us see how he does against teams not named the Oakland A's when he is on the mound. Surprising start. If I were an Angels fan I would be worried that he hits left and his pitching arm is exposed. Someone may be tempted to drill him with a pitch or two. You can see this happening as the season goes on, especially going into a big series where he may be hitting one day and pitching a few days later. They will pitch him inside to get hi off the plate, something 99% of National League pitchers don't have to worry when facing pitchers batting. Some bench clearing brawls are probably more on the horizon with that team potentially.
Quote from: MU82 on April 10, 2018, 09:51:39 PM
Yeah ... if only DiMaggio and Gehrig could have been as good as Stanton and Judge.
I don't think he was implying the old guys aren't as good, but that a different plate approach is required now because pitchers don't make as many mistakes and/or don't get worn down.
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 10, 2018, 10:00:05 PM
Let us see how he does against teams not named the Oakland A's when he is on the mound. Surprising start. If I were an Angels fan I would be worried that he hits left and his pitching arm is exposed. Someone may be tempted to drill him with a pitch or two. You can see this happening as the season goes on, especially going into a big series where he may be hitting one day and pitching a few days later. They will pitch him inside to get hi off the plate, something 99% of National League pitchers don't have to worry when facing pitchers batting. Some bench clearing brawls are probably more on the horizon with that team potentially.
There are plenty of RHPs who bat lefty. Ohtani wears a pad from his elbow to his upper arm anyway. I can't imagine any "arm-hunting" going on.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 11, 2018, 08:34:24 AM
I don't think he was implying the old guys aren't as good, but that a different plate approach is required now because pitchers don't make as many mistakes and/or don't get worn down.
Oh, you're probably right. I was just being snarky.
Having said that ...
Those guys played well before expansion watered down the talent significantly. There might be a lot of relief pitchers now, but a bunch of them probably should be in Triple-A.
You know, I'm pretty sure Ted Williams and Willie Mays would have done OK today!
Quote from: MU82 on April 11, 2018, 09:24:06 AM
Oh, you're probably right. I was just being snarky.
Having said that ...
Those guys played well before expansion watered down the talent significantly. There might be a lot of relief pitchers now, but a bunch of them probably should be in Triple-A.
You know, I'm pretty sure Ted Williams and Willie Mays would have done OK today!
20-25 years ago, Ted Williams was being interviewed and it was mentioned to him that modern pitchers were better, stronger, threw harder, etc. Williams was asked, "What do you think your batting average would be if you played today?" He responded that he'd hit around .280-.290. The interviewer was very surprised that Teddy Ballgame thought his average would be that low and Williams responded, "You gotta remember, I'm 75 years old."
Quote from: MU82 on April 11, 2018, 09:24:06 AM
Oh, you're probably right. I was just being snarky.
Having said that ...
Those guys played well before expansion watered down the talent significantly. There might be a lot of relief pitchers now, but a bunch of them probably should be in Triple-A.
You know, I'm pretty sure Ted Williams and Willie Mays would have done OK today!
I'm sure they would too, if given the access to things that modern ball players are given.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 10, 2018, 06:15:28 PM
I loved Vlad. I remember seeing him get a hit on a ball that was in the dirt--in the opposite batter's box.
In the late 90s on a visit to Montreal I took in a game at Olympic Stadium. The wife and I sat in right field and it was a pleasure to see Vlad gun a guy out a home. A laser throw right on target to the catcher.
Quote from: MU82 on April 11, 2018, 09:24:06 AM
Those guys played well before expansion watered down the talent significantly. There might be a lot of relief pitchers now, but a bunch of them probably should be in Triple-A.
That is not true. The increase in population alone from DiMaggio's time until now more than makes up for the difference in depth of quality, not to mention African Americans and international players. The quality of play is significantly better now and will be significantly better again 50 years from now. Just look at a baseball reference team page in the 30s and 40s. 9 guys would pitch 95% of the teams innings. Just about nobody had a slider. You can't tell me it wasn't much, much easier to hit back then.
DiMaggio and Williams would still be great ball players today, but not .344 career batting average or 56 game hitting streak great.
In every sport where you can objectively measure results, it is readily apparent that today's athletes are much, much better than there predecessors from a generation ago. Only baseball and boxing fans seem to think differently.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 10, 2018, 07:43:02 PM
Saw a cool highlight reel about Vlad last year. All hits on pitches that bounced. It was fun as heck.
Do you happen to have a link or know where you saw it?
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 11, 2018, 11:55:31 AM
That is not true. The increase in population alone from DiMaggio's time until now more than makes up for the difference in depth of quality, not to mention African Americans and international players. The quality of play is significantly better now and will be significantly better again 50 years from now. Just look at a baseball reference team page in the 30s and 40s. 9 guys would pitch 95% of the teams innings. Just about nobody had a slider. You can't tell me it wasn't much, much easier to hit back then.
DiMaggio and Williams would still be great ball players today, but not .344 career batting average or 56 game hitting streak great.
In every sport where you can objectively measure results, it is readily apparent that today's athletes are much, much better than there predecessors from a generation ago. Only baseball and boxing fans seem to think differently.
You make some good points here.
But the all-time greats are the all-time greats. As sultan said, maybe guys like DiMag and Willie take advantage of all the training aids available now - from exercise to video to weights to hyperbaric chambers to freakin' roids - and they'd be even better than they were.
Last I saw, Stanton and Judge didn't lose 3-5 years fighting in wars, either!
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 11, 2018, 11:55:31 AM
In every sport where you can objectively measure results, it is readily apparent that today's athletes are much, much better than there predecessors from a generation ago. Only baseball and boxing fans seem to think differently.
The best athletes aren't always the best baseball players.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 11, 2018, 12:37:13 PM
Do you happen to have a link or know where you saw it?
It was on MLB network I believe...not 100% sure. I'll see if I can track it down.
EDIT>>>>
Couldn't find it. This is pretty good though, one off a bounce. Maybe I wasn't remembering it correctly but I was sure I remembered a couple from his Expos days as well. This is still pretty fun to watch
https://youtu.be/RUErJ5zcwYo
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 11, 2018, 03:44:10 PM
The best athletes aren't always the best baseball players.
Don't be badmouthin' John Kruk.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 11, 2018, 03:44:10 PM
The best athletes aren't always the best baseball players.
This goes for every sport
See: Jamil Wilson 8-)
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 11, 2018, 04:29:44 PM
This goes for every sport
See: Jamil Wilson 8-)
Wilson is long and can jump. That doesn't necessarily make him a great athlete. And, oh by the way, the guy played in the NBA so he couldn't be all that bad at basketball.
Quote from: Jockey on April 11, 2018, 04:07:05 PM
Don't be badmouthin' John Kruk.
I didn't call anyone out by name! I was actually more thinking of pitchers. There are so many really good pitchers that couldn't make it up a flight of stairs.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 12, 2018, 07:51:48 AM
Wilson is long and can jump. That doesn't necessarily make him a great athlete. And, oh by the way, the guy played in the NBA so he couldn't be all that bad at basketball.
Wilson was freakishly athletic. Without an ounce of talent. With the nba however, it's amazing how far pure athletic talent can take you.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 12, 2018, 11:41:29 AM
Wilson was freakishly athletic. Without an ounce of talent. With the nba however, it's amazing how far pure athletic talent can take you.
Without
an ounce of talent?
Hot taek alert!
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 12, 2018, 11:41:29 AM
Wilson was freakishly athletic. Without an ounce of talent. With the nba however, it's amazing how far pure athletic talent can take you.
I think you have it backwards.
He was not a freak athlete. Not overly quick. Not a quick leaper. Not real quick lateral movement.
His talent made him a good player. Lack of elite athleticism kept him from being great.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 12, 2018, 11:41:29 AM
Wilson was freakishly athletic. Without an ounce of talent. With the nba however, it's amazing how far pure athletic talent can take you.
You get drafted based on athleticism when you're 19. You don't get picked up as a 27 year old based solely on your athleticism like Jamil did this year. He clearly had some basketball skills.
Jamil was basically a 3 point spot shooter and good defender with LAC. Relied FAR more on skill than athleticism. He attempted 5.4 FG per game and 4.2 of them were from beyond the arc. He made 43% from deep.
Seemed ta like goin' two da hole wen a rim protector wasn't 'round ether, hey?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 11, 2018, 09:08:55 AM
There are plenty of RHPs who bat lefty. Ohtani wears a pad from his elbow to his upper arm anyway. I can't imagine any "arm-hunting" going on.
Yes, there are, but how many of those guys also hit for power the other days of the week? I can imagine all kinds of things when competitive juices get going.
Last year two pitchers were hit by a pitch twice. Another 11 were hit one time, for a total of 13 pitchers hit in 15 pitches.
Ohtani will have way more at bats then any of those pitchers because of his DH position, and as a result will likely be hit more often. The question will be if he is hit at any greater rate than a normal player, or because he is a duel threat does that make him more prone to be hit. I only point out the risk and temptation of other clubs, especially as the season becomes more heated.
I don't know much you'd have to pay me to sit at Wrigley for 9 innings today, but it'd be a lot. Weather is brutal.
Has been all over the upper Midwest for the entire season up to now. July, august, and September are going to be brutal on the pitching staffs with all of the games that are going to have to be made up.
Quote from: MUDish on April 14, 2018, 01:10:58 PM
I don't know much you'd have to pay me to sit at Wrigley for 9 innings today, but it'd be a lot. Weather is brutal.
Six digit minimum. It's awful outside.
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 14, 2018, 12:10:55 PM
Yes, there are, but how many of those guys also hit for power the other days of the week? I can imagine all kinds of things when competitive juices get going.
Last year two pitchers were hit by a pitch twice. Another 11 were hit one time, for a total of 13 pitchers hit in 15 pitches.
Ohtani will have way more at bats then any of those pitchers because of his DH position, and as a result will likely be hit more often. The question will be if he is hit at any greater rate than a normal player, or because he is a duel threat does that make him more prone to be hit. I only point out the risk and temptation of other clubs, especially as the season becomes more heated.
Carlos Zambrano was a guy that hit for and was a switch hitter. So he would often hit lefty and expose his right arm to pitchers. He was a reasonably good hitter for a pitcher with some decent power (.238/.248/.388). Not an MVP, but not a joke. He was also a bit of an unlikable sort.
He hit 102 hitters in his career. He was hit 0 times as a hitter.
How much a batter gets hit depends more on the batter than the pitchers. It varies with where they set up in the box and their feelings on getting hit. Anthony Rizzo gets drilled quite a lot. I think it has more to do with him trying to take away the inside part of the plate with his stance and the pad on his arm than malicious intent driven by "competitive juices".
Madison Bumgarner is probably the best hitting pitcher in baseball. 1 HBP in his career. He hits right, with his left arm exposed.
Will Ohtani get hit? Yeah, probably. If he has 400 or so PA than he will likely get hit at some point. Will it be malicious with another team trying to injure him? Probably not.
Teams could hurt the Angels more by hitting Trout. Losing Harper could kill the Nats, why would the Mets not just aim for his hands to break bones every time?
Maybe he is a bit more vulnerable than others but I wouldn't think he is going to be a target.
And if the Angels really want to protect him, just hit him in front of Trout, because I have a hard time believing that any pitcher would purposely put a guy on base in front of the best hitter on the planet.
It's early and the weather has stunk, but this Cubs team has been a dumpster fire so far in 2018.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 09, 2018, 05:06:54 PM
Oh look...a Brewers fan that has nothing to say about their own team...
You've gotten awfully quiet over the last week. Weird.
Quote from: MUDish on April 14, 2018, 02:58:20 PM
It's early and the weather has stunk, but this Cubs team has been a dumpster fire so far in 2018.
Fire Madden!
The two worst teams in the NL are the Reds and Marlins. They are a 3-2 vs the Cubs and 3-19 against everyone else.
Though the Cubs are hardly the only expected contender that have started off poorly.
The Nats and Dodgers are also under .500, making it a clean sweep of the most likely division champs at the seasons beginning.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on April 14, 2018, 03:05:27 PM
Fire Madden!
The Cubs should try running da offense out of da shotgun. I'll hang up and listen for my answer!
Quote from: MUDish on April 14, 2018, 03:14:36 PM
The Cubs should try running da offense out of da shotgun. I'll hang up and listen for my answer!
EPSTIEN SHOULD HIRE OZZIE!
I took a nap and woke up and this Cubs game is tied. Forget what I said earlier, Cubbies baby!
Quote from: MUDish on April 14, 2018, 04:44:17 PM
I took a nap and woke up and this Cubs game is tied. Forget what I said earlier, Cubbies baby!
Never a doubt!
It's a long season boys.
SOTG to any fan that was there from first to last pitch.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on April 14, 2018, 05:23:04 PM
It's a long season boys.
SOTG to any fan that was there from first to last pitch.
Disregard everything I've said in this thread, that would have been a hell of a game to be at today.
My hot sports takes = cold as ice.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 03:03:55 PM
You've gotten awfully quiet over the last week. Weird.
This post hasn't aged well.
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 14, 2018, 06:13:51 PM
This post hasn't aged well.
It hasn't? Did I miss something? The guy comes around pounding his chest asking where the Brewers fans are and then suddenly goes missing when his awesome Chubbies go 2-3 against the Braves and Pirates. Remind me again what's not aging well?
Quote from: #UnleashNers on April 14, 2018, 06:13:51 PM
This post hasn't aged well.
Really? Crowing about beating the Braves? It was an impressive comeback, but still against the Braves.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 06:27:38 PM
It hasn't? Did I miss something? The guy comes around pounding his chest asking where the Brewers fans are and then suddenly goes missing when his awesome Chubbies go 2-3 against the Braves and Pirates. Remind me again what's not aging well?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/0cf8b8b298edf6e0f297839451042dd6/tenor.gif?itemid=5412476)
Hey a picture actually worked for me on the first try
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on April 14, 2018, 07:15:39 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/0cf8b8b298edf6e0f297839451042dd6/tenor.gif?itemid=5412476)
What?
What year is it?
http://usatodayhss.com/2018/report-new-hampshire-youth-baseball-coaches-planned-to-bean-leagues-lone-girl-to-intimidate-her-into-leaving
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 07:28:53 PM
What?
Yeah that was a pretty dumb use of the meme right there.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 03:03:55 PM
You've gotten awfully quiet over the last week. Weird.
What's weird (and sad) is you're apparently keeping tabs on me. As I said, I don't live here like you. Fun comeback today.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 14, 2018, 08:37:37 PM
What's weird (and sad) is you're apparently keeping tabs on me. As I said, I don't live here like you. Fun comeback today.
Keep tabs on you? It's not hard to follow a thread and see who posted. When someone questions where Brewers fans are when they lose a couple April games they should probably not go into hiding when their beloved Cubbies start losing a few games. And considering you popped right back up a couple hours after I posted it seems as though maybe you do follow along a bit more than you pretend to be too big for.
Or maybe just coincidentally good timing.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 08:41:14 PM
Keep tabs on you? It's not hard to follow a thread and see who posted. When someone questions where Brewers fans are when they lose a couple April games they should probably not go into hiding when their beloved Cubbies start losing a few games. And considering you popped right back up a couple hours after I posted it seems as though maybe you do follow along a bit more than you pretend to be too big for.
Or maybe just coincidentally good timing.
You really are an obsessed, sad little man. 10 years later, same routine. Literally, the exact same. Constant pissing matches on here - does it ever get tiresome? I also never questioned where Brewers fans were. I'm confident you'll spend the time to now go back through my posts to confirm that.
I don't care if the Cubs lose a few games here and there...really, I don't (You may have noticed the Pirates have gotten off to a great start) I know they'll be there in the end with a shot for a playoff run....you should focus more on your own team rather than failure of your obsession...it's much more fulfilling.
You live here, I came back last week to have a little fun after the Cubs crushed the Brewers last week...I don't need this place like you do.
And, yes, couple hours later must be a coincidence...as opposed to
4 minutes later... it's sad.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 14, 2018, 09:19:24 PM
You really are an obsessed, sad little man. 10 years later, same routine. Literally, the exact same. Constant pissing matches on here - does it ever get tiresome? I also never questioned where Brewers fans were. I'm confident you'll spend the time to now go back through my posts to confirm that.
I don't care if the Cubs lose a few games here and there...really, I don't (You may have noticed the Pirates have gotten off to a great start) I know they'll be there in the end with a shot for a playoff run....you should focus more on your own team rather than failure of your obsession...it's much more fulfilling.
You live here, I came back last week to have a little fun after the Cubs crushed the Brewers last week...I don't need this place like you do.
And, yes, couple hours later must be a coincidence...as opposed to 4 minutes later... it's sad.
Still here? I thought you'd have more important things to do on your Saturday night. And who's keeping tabs on who here? It looks like you've been scouting out my posting for 10 years. Glad to know I haven't changed.
The difference between you and I is I don't pretend I'm too big for MUScoop while sitting around posting on it, or that someone else is "keeping tabs" on me for noticing they aren't active in a thread only to then come back and talk about that poster's "decade long" history. Have it both ways bud. You certainly do sound like a FIB.
Anyways sorry for disrupting your awesome life that is too important for MUScoop posting! Enjoy whatever it is you fill your time up with! I know you won't be able to respond to this for years because you have way cooler stuff to do, but I can't wait to hear about it when you get a moment of free time!
Oh, and to answer your question, heck no arguing with people like you doesn't get old. This is great entertainment.
What I always think of when a team blows a huge lead like the Braves did is that if the Braves actually tried to increase their 10-2 lead by stealing a base or bunting a runner over, the "unwritten rules" people would have gone nuts and there probably would have been beanball wars.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 09:36:01 PM
Still here? I thought you'd have more important things to do on your Saturday night. And who's keeping tabs on who here? It looks like you've been scouting out my posting for 10 years. Glad to know I haven't changed.
The difference between you and I is I don't pretend I'm too big for MUScoop while sitting around posting on it, or that someone else is "keeping tabs" on me for noticing they aren't active in a thread only to then come back and talk about that poster's "decade long" history. Have it both ways bud. You certainly do sound like a FIB.
Anyways sorry for disrupting your awesome life that is too important for MUScoop posting! Enjoy whatever it is you fill your time up with! I know you won't be able to respond to this for years because you have way cooler stuff to do, but I can't wait to hear about it when you get a moment of free time!
Oh, and to answer your question, heck no arguing with people like you doesn't get old. This is great entertainment.
It is fun toying with you, I'll give you that. Appears I struck a chord as you've resorted back to childish name calling.
The 10 years was in reference to some of the old Cubs/Brewers threads where I would own you...I know you remember.
You clearly noticed I didn't post for a few days and called me out...if that's not keeping tabs, would like to know what is.
I'm certainly not too good for posting here, never said that, never would..you did. I just simply said you have a need for it on a daily basis...prior to last week I hadn't posted for 3 years....but I forgot how fun it was to watch you unravel.
I regret not being here for the Cubs WS win. I'll be here for the next one though...as well as a few times throughout the season...apologize in advance for not being here all day...everyday like you.
You should try other means of entertainment some time...your parents have cable upstairs?
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 14, 2018, 10:26:08 PM
It is fun toying with you, I'll give you that. Appears I struck a chord as you've resorted back to childish name calling.
The 10 years was in reference to some of the old Cubs/Brewers threads where I would own you...I know you remember.
You clearly noticed I didn't post for a few days and called me out...if that's not keeping tabs, would like to know what is.
I'm certainly not too good for posting here, never said that, never would..you did. I just simply said you have a need for it on a daily basis...prior to last week I hadn't posted for 3 years....but I forgot how fun it was to watch you unravel.
I regret not being here for the Cubs WS win. I'll be here for the next one though...as well as a few times throughout the season...apologize in advance for not being here all day...everyday like you.
You should try other means of entertainment some time...your parents have cable upstairs?
Nope. I don't remember what was said 3 years ago on MUScoop. I have no idea who you are or what you posted 3 years ago. Apparently I left enough of an impression on you that you remember these things though.
Nothing better than an insecure Chicago sports fan.
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)
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 14, 2018, 10:26:08 PM
It is fun toying with you, I'll give you that. Appears I struck a chord as you've resorted back to childish name calling.
The 10 years was in reference to some of the old Cubs/Brewers threads where I would own you...I know you remember.
You clearly noticed I didn't post for a few days and called me out...if that's not keeping tabs, would like to know what is.
I'm certainly not too good for posting here, never said that, never would..you did. I just simply said you have a need for it on a daily basis...prior to last week I hadn't posted for 3 years....but I forgot how fun it was to watch you unravel.
I regret not being here for the Cubs WS win. I'll be here for the next one though...as well as a few times throughout the season...apologize in advance for not being here all day...everyday like you.
You should try other means of entertainment some time...your parents have cable upstairs?
Got curious as to what your "owning" of me 3 years ago was so checked out your posting history. Still have no idea who you are or what you were saying, but wow is your post history fun to look through. It's like a combo of Ners (question every move the coach makes, thinks he knows better than everyone in the world), UnleashWhoever (start hyperventilating when MU falls behind by 2 in the first possession of the game and calls the game "over" right then), and...well, someone who thought MU should've hired Ben Howland but was actually going to hire Brian Wardle.
Not in the least bit shocking that you are a meathead Chicago sports fan. Good stuff. I'm glad you "embarrassed" me 3 years ago and that you "know" I remember it (still haven't gotten to that part of your post history yet, but you're too important for anyone not to remember that right?).
Can we set up a pissing match thread for 94 and wades to be pissy, and let this thread be about baseball?
Quote from: ZiggysWhiteWineBoy on April 15, 2018, 12:07:12 AM
Can we set up a pissing match thread for 94 and wades to be pissy, and let this thread be about baseball?
What's stopping you?
Quote from: MU82 on April 14, 2018, 10:03:19 PM
What I always think of when a team blows a huge lead like the Braves did is that if the Braves actually tried to increase their 10-2 lead by stealing a base or bunting a runner over, the "unwritten rules" people would have gone nuts and there probably would have been beanball wars.
that is a great observation 82-wasn't it about 2 weeks ago the twins were beating the orioles 7-0 in the 9th inning. the twins go into a defensive shift and chance sisco broke all the unwritten rules by laying down a bunt???
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/mlb-unwritten-rules-brian-dozier-minnesota-twins-chance-sisco-baltimore-orioles-bunt-shift-berrios/18aa8m7vmlyjh1119mi1tsnjdd
wtf? no unwritten rules about going into a defensive shift under those circumstances? forget the "no crying in baseball" rule. i don't get the twins getting pissed off here except it might have stalled their run to the beers and post-game spread or hookin up with their girl du jour
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 11:17:37 PM
Got curious as to what your "owning" of me 3 years ago was so checked out your posting history. Still have no idea who you are or what you were saying, but wow is your post history fun to look through. It's like a combo of Ners (question every move the coach makes, thinks he knows better than everyone in the world), UnleashWhoever (start hyperventilating when MU falls behind by 2 in the first possession of the game and calls the game "over" right then), and...well, someone who thought MU should've hired Ben Howland but was actually going to hire Brian Wardle.
Not in the least bit shocking that you are a meathead Chicago sports fan. Good stuff. I'm glad you "embarrassed" me 3 years ago and that you "know" I remember it (still haven't gotten to that part of your post history yet, but you're too important for anyone not to remember that right?).
Yawn, you both suck Schwetty balls.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2018, 11:17:37 PM
Got curious as to what your "owning" of me 3 years ago was so checked out your posting history. Still have no idea who you are or what you were saying, but wow is your post history fun to look through. It's like a combo of Ners (question every move the coach makes, thinks he knows better than everyone in the world), UnleashWhoever (start hyperventilating when MU falls behind by 2 in the first possession of the game and calls the game "over" right then), and...well, someone who thought MU should've hired Ben Howland but was actually going to hire Brian Wardle.
Not in the least bit shocking that you are a meathead Chicago sports fan. Good stuff. I'm glad you "embarrassed" me 3 years ago and that you "know" I remember it (still haven't gotten to that part of your post history yet, but you're too important for anyone not to remember that right?).
I wasn't aware I was hyperventalating every time Marquette was losing. Oh well. I took some time (5 minutes) to go through some post history.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 31, 2018, 10:31:43 PM
5th year senior puts up a doughnut in the biggest game of the year. Way to step up and lead your team.
Turn this team over to Sam. Run every offensive set through him. At least he'll attempt to make the smart basketball decision. I've seen enough of our 5'9" guards put their head down and hunt their points. The ball needs to move and everyone needs to be involved.
Time to start playing for next season. And make sure we're having a middle man get on some potential grad transfer point guards. Ones who look to get their teammates going and want to compete and at least pretend to want to defend.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 12, 2018, 07:22:29 PM
What in the world was that tonight? Absolutely awful. Wojo needs to shorten his leash considerably if this is how he?s going to play.
He was the only thing worse than the refs in this game.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2018, 04:00:28 PM
I'm not sure what goalposts you're talking about. Rowsey put up a doughnut against Butler. Good effort. Rowsey's job is to score. Does that mean Rowsey should never pass the basketball? Again, that's a new concept. Scorers still need to play within an offense. Which is exactly what the original post was about. Run the offense through Sam, like we did in the first half today. He's the only player who plays with his head up seeing the court. You're making this a lot harder than you need to.
Anyways, MU wins that game if Rowsey simply graces us with a foul out earlier in the game.
Read the original post and/or learn the definition of goal post shifting. Our offense needs to be run through Sam. He's the only one smart enough to make the right plays even a portion of the time. Being a scorer doesn't mean you don't move the basketball. Except maybe in your own head.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2018, 03:58:30 PM
How's the NIT bubble looking?
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2018, 02:55:58 PM
Because he scored 0 points in a home game against a team you're fighting on the bubble with.
I was unaware that if you're going to be a scorer the ball can't move on your team? That would be a new thought I've never heard of.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2018, 02:31:11 PM
Completely disagree. In what world is the guy who was 2nd in the Big East in scoring going 0-2 from the field for 0 points, 2 assists, 1 turnover (and definitely should've been a second but the refs felt so bad for him they gave him a ghost touch), and picking up a second foul while a guy is literally shooting a shot from behind the backboard "fine?"
Andrew Rowsey and I have scored the same amount of points for Marquette in the last 3 halves of basketball, all while we've been playing 2 teams we are competing with on the bubble.
Rowsey's job on this team is to 1) score and (enter HUGE gap between numbers 1 and 2) 2) distribute the ball. He literally hasn't done number 1 in the last 60 minutes of basketball.
Seniors need to step up at this time of year. Especially 5th year seniors who are the only seniors on the team.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 19, 2018, 07:33:26 PM
Yeah we weren't really even remotely close to the bubble. Heck, we missed the NIT. I don't think 1 bad home win and 1 "meh" home win changed our NCAA Tournament outlook.
Oh wait, thats yours... Oh well. Please don't drag me into your pissing matches. But going through your post history, it was abundantly clear that you have some real issues you might want to work on. Around 70% of your posts are just attacking people on scoop. Maybe cool it a bit?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on April 15, 2018, 03:18:34 PM
I wasn't aware I was hyperventalating every time Marquette was losing. Oh well. I took some time (5 minutes) to go through some post history.
Oh wait, thats yours... Oh well. Please don't drag me into your pissing matches. But going through your post history, it was abundantly clear that you have some real issues you might want to work on. Around 70% of your posts are just attacking people on scoop. Maybe cool it a bit?
So you're pointing out my...post game thoughts in losses? Okay...? Thanks? Lol. That's the point. Freaking out 2 minutes into a 40 minute game is, well, silly. If you'd like to go look at Rowsey's game log throughout the conference season you'll see his inconsistencies. He shot 36% from the field in Big East play prior to the Conference Tournament. And our team made the NIT. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here...
Meanwhile, the Mets, Pirates and DBacks are winning their divisions.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 15, 2018, 04:28:03 PM
Meanwhile, the Mets, Pirates and DBacks are winning their divisions.
Mets are very good, but always get hit by injuries and chances are will be again. If they can stay healthy they can challenge the Nats. Pirates will fall back. DBacks are very good and were last year as well. They can challenge the Dodgers.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 15, 2018, 04:33:38 PM
Mets are very good, but always get hit by injuries and chances are will be again. If they can stay healthy they can challenge the Nats. Pirates will fall back. DBacks are very good and were last year as well. They can challenge the Dodgers.
While it's still early, I find it interesting that the favorites are all dragging in all three divisions. The Mets are on fire but the Phillies are in 2nd. The Dodgers and Nats were supposed to be slam dunks. I think this is what makes baseball great--can go from last to first unlike other pro leagues.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 15, 2018, 04:41:50 PM
While it's still early, I find it interesting that the favorites are all dragging in all three divisions. The Mets are on fire but the Phillies are in 2nd. The Dodgers and Nats were supposed to be slam dunks. I think this is what makes baseball great--can go from last to first unlike other pro leagues.
Eagles, Jags and Panthers all went from worst to first in their division last year.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 15, 2018, 04:22:30 PM
So you're pointing out my...post game thoughts in losses? Okay...? Thanks? Lol. That's the point. Freaking out 2 minutes into a 40 minute game is, well, silly. If you'd like to go look at Rowsey's game log throughout the conference season you'll see his inconsistencies. He shot 36% from the field in Big East play prior to the Conference Tournament. And our team made the NIT. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here...
Well you attacked me for whining.... For some unknown reason? Without any proof. So I sent you some proof of whining. From you. Please do the same to me if you can.
Also could you not avoid the main point. That of why do you attack people on scoop left and right.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 15, 2018, 12:16:57 AM
What's stopping you?
Pissing Match thread is now active, please piss over there and not in the pool.
Pissin' no matta, hey?
Really wanted Colon to throw a perfect game tonight, I hope he pitches until he's 50.
Quote from: MUDish on April 15, 2018, 09:57:47 PM
Really wanted Colon to throw a perfect game tonight, I hope he pitches until he's 50.
He's an inspiration to fat guys everywhere.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 15, 2018, 04:33:38 PM
Mets are very good, but always get hit by injuries and chances are will be again. If they can stay healthy they can challenge the Nats. Pirates will fall back. DBacks are very good and were last year as well. They can challenge the Dodgers.
The Mets are a great example of the risks to middling payroll teams of focusing on pitching prospects rather than hitting prospects. If you have four top-30 pitchers with 225 IP, you will win your division. But the chances of that happening are nearly zero, there's just too much injury variance to build that way.
Even domes are cancelling games now.
The Red Sox are on as good a roll as I have ever seen them. Just went to play the 13-3 Angels on the road and swept them by cumulative 27-3. They are scary good right now. Would rather they saved this for September/October, but they have been fun to watch so far.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 20, 2018, 07:34:02 AM
The Red Sox are on as good a roll as I have ever seen them. Just went to play the 13-3 Angels on the road and swept them by cumulative 27-3. They are scary good right now. Would rather they saved this for September/October, but they have been fun to watch so far.
They have been unreal. If these are he versions of Mookie and Porcello they get for the year, yikes.
Scherzer vs. Kershaw tonight in what is probably the best possible pitching matchup the MLB can offer. Which probably means is will be a 6-5 game.
I really like the replay system. 3rd base ump absolutely blew a call in the cubs rockies game just now. I would be blowing up if it wasn't reviewable.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on April 20, 2018, 09:14:11 PM
I really like the replay system. 3rd base ump absolutely blew a call in the cubs rockies game just now. I would be blowing up if it wasn't reviewable.
Just saw that. Not sure about what kind of angle he had, but that was a pretty horrendous call.
Justin Verlander played unwritten rules police yesterday. Saying at the same time he didn't care about a SB attempt but specfically calling out the play. Doesn't seem to make much sense. He seemed to take offense that Tim Anderson was having fun in a game his team was losing.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 21, 2018, 01:11:18 PM
Justin Verlander played unwritten rules police yesterday. Saying at the same time he didn't care about a SB attempt but specfically calling out the play. Doesn't seem to make much sense. He seemed to take offense that Tim Anderson was having fun in a game his team was losing.
https://deadspin.com/justin-verlander-is-a-sensitive-baby-1825444290
Quote from: Pakuni on April 21, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
https://deadspin.com/justin-verlander-is-a-sensitive-baby-1825444290
Apparently no team should be allowed to score once they fall behind. The good news is that this will cut down on the length of games.
Oh and no joy. None whatsoever. The only way to properly play is with stoicism at all times.
I'm surprised the Braves didn't complain after they had a 10-2 lead and the Cubs tried to score runs when they were way behind.
Yeah. Verlander seems to be taking this silliness to a new level. "It's the 5th inning! Stop trying already!"
Danny Farquhar, praying for a full recovery. Brain hemorrhage in the dugout.
Indeed
Baez is playing on another level now. Way better at bats, lot less of the homerun swing at the dirt curve.
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 21, 2018, 05:30:54 PM
Danny Farquhar, praying for a full recovery. Brain hemorrhage in the dugout.
Just terrible. Couldn't believe how serious it was with how it was played off initially.
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 21, 2018, 05:30:54 PM
Danny Farquhar, praying for a full recovery. Brain hemorrhage in the dugout.
Terrible. Prayers for a speedy and complete recovery.
So I think Verlander's comments have been taken out of context quite a bit. When I read what he said I don't think he ever had any issues with unwritten rules. He seemed to have more of an issue with the other player bragging about getting a base knock and then a given ''stolen" base. Then his bragging back was just him showing up the other guy.
Not that I agree with what he did or anything. But I can say I've had the same happen while playing sports. Some guy getting a bit to chippy about making some half guarded shot while being down by 15. Usually got me to spin move into him for a bucket or swipe a ball on him the next play and give him some lip.
In conclusion didn't really ever see him argue about unwritten rules.
Scary HBP in a strange Cubs-Rockies game yesterday. Glad to hear that Bryant has passed the concussion tests and only has a cut over his eye from the sunglasses. I can't imagine that pitch being intentional so it was odd that the Cubs had two coaches ejected. On a play like that, umps typically let benches vent a bit. Something pretty harsh must have been said. I was glad to see the Cubs not retaliate...though Arenado might be wise to wear some extra protection when the Rox comes to Wrigley next week.
The Baez-LeMahieu argument was bizarre too. There was no reason for the ump to approach Javy during all that. An infielder has every right to stand in front of the runner if he wants as long as he isn't blocking his path. It was funny to hear the contrast between the Cubs' announcers view of the play (basically what I said) and the Rockies' announcers claiming that stealing signs is part of the game and Baez was in the wrong.
One of these days, a retaliatory beanball is going to kill a superstar or turn him into a vegetable.
I hope it doesn't happen, but the way these guys throw, it's almost bound to.
Quote from: MU82 on April 23, 2018, 09:20:26 AM
One of these days, a retaliatory beanball is going to kill a superstar or turn him into a vegetable.
I hope it doesn't happen, but the way these guys throw, it's almost bound to.
What if MLB instituted a rule that if a pitcher hits a batter above the shoulders, he's automatically ejected and warnings are issued to both benches. They could obviously argue that it's being done with players' safety in mind - 1) if a pitcher's control is that poor on a particular day, get him out of there and 2) it should help decrease retaliative bean balls since warnings were issued.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 23, 2018, 08:26:51 AM
Scary HBP in a strange Cubs-Rockies game yesterday. Glad to hear that Bryant has passed the concussion tests and only has a cut over his eye from the sunglasses. I can't imagine that pitch being intentional so it was odd that the Cubs had two coaches ejected. On a play like that, umps typically let benches vent a bit. Something pretty harsh must have been said. I was glad to see the Cubs not retaliate...though Arenado might be wise to wear some extra protection when the Rox comes to Wrigley next week.
The Baez-LeMahieu argument was bizarre too. There was no reason for the ump to approach Javy during all that. An infielder has every right to stand in front of the runner if he wants as long as he isn't blocking his path. It was funny to hear the contrast between the Cubs' announcers view of the play (basically what I said) and the Rockies' announcers claiming that stealing signs is part of the game and Baez was in the wrong.
I heard afterwards what the Rockies announcers said and I was astounded by the stupidity of their comments.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 23, 2018, 09:39:05 AM
What if MLB instituted a rule that if a pitcher hits a batter above the shoulders, he's automatically ejected and warnings are issued to both benches. They could obviously argue that it's being done with players' safety in mind - 1) if a pitcher's control is that poor on a particular day, get him out of there and 2) it should help decrease retaliative bean balls since warnings were issued.
That's tough though because as good as pitchers are if they are trying to pitch inside and one happens to get away early in the game, I don't think a team should lose the SP because of that. You eject a SP in the early innings and suddenly the bullpen is spent and it can impact the pitching staff for days to come.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 23, 2018, 09:39:05 AM
What if MLB instituted a rule that if a pitcher hits a batter above the shoulders, he's automatically ejected and warnings are issued to both benches. They could obviously argue that it's being done with players' safety in mind - 1) if a pitcher's control is that poor on a particular day, get him out of there and 2) it should help decrease retaliative bean balls since warnings were issued.
That would be OK. Fine him and maybe suspend him, too.
Might there be a situation or two in which somebody who wasn't actually headhunting gets unfairly punished, as VBMG correctly says? I suppose. But I'd be willing to make that tradeoff.
Quote from: MU82 on April 23, 2018, 10:17:16 PM
That would be OK. Fine him and maybe suspend him, too.
Might there be a situation or two in which somebody who wasn't actually headhunting gets unfairly punished, as VBMG correctly says? I suppose. But I'd be willing to make that tradeoff.
I'd make that tradeoff as well. Marquez definitely wasn't throwing at Bryant on Sunday but he still let one get away and the results could have been catastrophic. If you can't control your pitches better than that, you need to go.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 23, 2018, 09:39:05 AM
What if MLB instituted a rule that if a pitcher hits a batter above the shoulders, he's automatically ejected and warnings are issued to both benches. They could obviously argue that it's being done with players' safety in mind - 1) if a pitcher's control is that poor on a particular day, get him out of there and 2) it should help decrease retaliative bean balls since warnings were issued.
Since I am gonna argue a little here, let me just say that I consider you one of the better posters on scoop..... but, (and I may be a bit silly here)
Just make the players wear bubble wrap, then. Or eliminate humans and use robots. You are basically advocating that pitchers should be banned from pitching inside. The game would be destroyed and .350+ hitters would be a dime a dozen. I think headhunting is pretty obvious and is dealt with just fine now.
If a player should be fined or suspended for missing their target inside, should we then suspend guys when they miss 2 feet outside? Should they be required to deliver a pitch within 6" of the glove? Watch how often every single game, that pitchers miss the catcher's target by more that a foot. A lot.
Furthermore, there could be no more baseball on a wet field ever. The ball gets wet and could slip out of the pitcher's hand. Surely, he must be suspended for that.
As I said, I carried it too far and got silly. But having this conversation because a precious Cubbie got hit is just as silly.
Quote from: Jockey on April 24, 2018, 11:51:58 AM
Since I am gonna argue a little here, let me just say that I consider you one of the better posters on scoop..... but, (and I may be a bit silly here)
Just make the players wear bubble wrap, then. Or eliminate humans and use robots. You are basically advocating that pitchers should be banned from pitching inside. The game would be destroyed and .350+ hitters would be a dime a dozen. I think headhunting is pretty obvious and is dealt with just fine now.
If a player should be fined or suspended for missing their target inside, should we then suspend guys when they miss 2 feet outside? Should they be required to deliver a pitch within 6" of the glove? Watch how often every single game, that pitchers miss the catcher's target by more that a foot. A lot.
Furthermore, there could be no more baseball on a wet field ever. The ball gets wet and could slip out of the pitcher's hand. Surely, he must be suspended for that.
As I said, I carried it too far and got silly. But having this conversation because a precious Cubbie got hit is just as silly.
I won't speak for MM, just myself.
I'm not saying fine or suspend them for pitching inside. I'm saying fine or suspend them if they hit a batter in the head. If a major-leaguer has such poor control that he puts his fellow competitors in serious - maybe even fatal - danger, then he can pay and sit.
Just how I feel. Not saying if it's right or wrong ... but it's right - ha!
Quote from: MU82 on April 24, 2018, 12:06:55 PM
I won't speak for MM, just myself.
I'm not saying fine or suspend them for pitching inside. I'm saying fine or suspend them if they hit a batter in the head. If a major-leaguer has such poor control that he puts his fellow competitors in serious - maybe even fatal - danger, then he can pay and sit.
Just how I feel. Not saying if it's right or wrong ... but it's right - ha!
Being serious this time.... I generally agree with what you say. I think, though, that headhunting is pretty easy to spot so I wouldn't suspend every pitcher who hits someone high. I don't wanna treat a guy who has a pitch slip out of his hand the same as a guy who is intentionally trying to hurt someone.
But as far as suspensions, I advocate a much longer suspension - maybe 20 to 30 days - if it was intentional.
Quote from: Jockey on April 24, 2018, 11:51:58 AM
Since I am gonna argue a little here, let me just say that I consider you one of the better posters on scoop..... but, (and I may be a bit silly here)
Just make the players wear bubble wrap, then. Or eliminate humans and use robots. You are basically advocating that pitchers should be banned from pitching inside. The game would be destroyed and .350+ hitters would be a dime a dozen. I think headhunting is pretty obvious and is dealt with just fine now.
If a player should be fined or suspended for missing their target inside, should we then suspend guys when they miss 2 feet outside? Should they be required to deliver a pitch within 6" of the glove? Watch how often every single game, that pitchers miss the catcher's target by more that a foot. A lot.
Furthermore, there could be no more baseball on a wet field ever. The ball gets wet and could slip out of the pitcher's hand. Surely, he must be suspended for that.
As I said, I carried it too far and got silly. But having this conversation because a precious Cubbie got hit is just as silly.
I disagree that pitchers would no longer feel as though they can pitch inside. An ejection would only be after a HBP above the shoulders. I get what you're saying though and perhaps an automatic ejection takes things too far.
I didn't suggest this simply because a Cub got hit. Players get hit by pitches all the time. Bryant has been hit 7 times already. Rizzo has led the league in HBP in 2 of the last 3 seasons. It's part of the game.
Player safety should also be part of the game and when a player gets hit in the head, the pitcher is at fault. It also tends to lead to more bean balls and, clearly, a decrease in player safety. Maybe the obvious answer is to come down harder on players/teams who retaliate. I'm all in for harsher suspensions when a pitcher intentionally throws at a batter. I don't want to let a pitcher who drills someone in the head off the hook though. Perhaps a strong fine would suffice.
Quote from: Jockey on April 24, 2018, 12:42:39 PM
Being serious this time.... I generally agree with what you say. I think, though, that headhunting is pretty easy to spot so I wouldn't suspend every pitcher who hits someone high. I don't wanna treat a guy who has a pitch slip out of his hand the same as a guy who is intentionally trying to hurt someone.
But as far as suspensions, I advocate a much longer suspension - maybe 20 to 30 days - if it was intentional.
I agree with the bolded, which is why those pitchers wouldn't be treated the same.
If a pitcher inadvertently hits a batter above the shoulders, he gets ejected and/or fined.
If a pitcher intentionally throws at a player, he gets ejected plus a long suspension.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 24, 2018, 01:10:05 PM
I didn't suggest this simply because a Cub got hit. Players get hit by pitches all the time. Bryant has been hit 7 times already. Rizzo has led the league in HBP in 2 of the last 3 seasons. It's part of the game.
I knew that, MM.
Just can't pass up a chance with you or VBMG 8-)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 24, 2018, 01:10:05 PM
I didn't suggest this simply because a Cub got hit. Players get hit by pitches all the time. Bryant has been hit 7 times already. Rizzo has led the league in HBP in 2 of the last 3 seasons. It's part of the game.
It should be noted that some players - especially Rizzo - invite getting hit by where they stand at the plate.
But again, it's a far cry from hitting him in the thigh or arm as opposed to in the head. He doesn't put his head over the plate.
I like the suggestion of a long suspension if it's deemed intentional but an ejection for any beaning.
Quote from: Jockey on April 24, 2018, 04:01:35 PM
I knew that, MM.
Just can't pass up a chance with you or VBMG 8-)
Got it. Still, it helped my response flow nicely so thanks!
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 24, 2018, 01:10:05 PM
I disagree that pitchers would no longer feel as though they can pitch inside. An ejection would only be after a HBP above the shoulders. I get what you're saying though and perhaps an automatic ejection takes things too far.
I didn't suggest this simply because a Cub got hit. Players get hit by pitches all the time. Bryant has been hit 7 times already. Rizzo has led the league in HBP in 2 of the last 3 seasons. It's part of the game.
Player safety should also be part of the game and when a player gets hit in the head, the pitcher is at fault. It also tends to lead to more bean balls and, clearly, a decrease in player safety. Maybe the obvious answer is to come down harder on players/teams who retaliate. I'm all in for harsher suspensions when a pitcher intentionally throws at a batter. I don't want to let a pitcher who drills someone in the head off the hook though. Perhaps a strong fine would suffice.
I agree with the bolded, which is why those pitchers wouldn't be treated the same.
If a pitcher inadvertently hits a batter above the shoulders, he gets ejected and/or fined.
If a pitcher intentionally throws at a player, he gets ejected plus a long suspension.
I only care about the Cardinals' unwritten rules. The rest of this is just fluff.
1st place team in the NL Central has been getting killed with injuries.
Yelich was DL for a while. Knebel & Thames out a couple months each.
That's the 2 best players on the team plus another of the top 7 or 8.
Quote from: Jockey on April 25, 2018, 04:31:52 PM
1st place team in the NL Central has been getting killed with injuries.
Yelich was DL for a while. Knebel & Thames out a couple months each.
That's the 2 best players on the team plus another of the top 7 or 8.
They'll be ok. They have tremendous depth. Maybe Thames can resume like it's April when he comes back. And getting Knebel and Nelson back will be like mid-season acquisitions. Not saying they'll come out firing on all cylinders, but they will be key down the stretch.
Quote from: ZiggysWhiteWineBoy on April 25, 2018, 11:14:44 AM
I only care about the Cardinals' unwritten rules. The rest of this is just fluff.
Why did you use Teal?
Kinda miss the days of Drysdale, Gibson, Marichal, Jenkins and even Seaver.
You got beaned, you knew it. They owned the plate. They didn't headhunt because their control was so good that if they want to bean you, their radar found exactly the place for the bean and... OUCH.
Nice article on the early season results for Baez and Schwarber and the underlying approach behind them.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/schwarber-and-baez-are-mashing-but-their-approaches-are-more-impressive-than-their-numbers/
Quote from: Jockey on April 25, 2018, 04:31:52 PM
1st place team in the NL Central has been getting killed with injuries.
Yelich was DL for a while. Knebel & Thames out a couple months each.
That's the 2 best players on the team plus another of the top 7 or 8.
What seemed like an obvious error in not trying to trade some of the young outfield talent after signing Cain and trading for Yelich (Phillips and/or Santana in particular) now looks like another case of "Maybe Stearns knows what he's doing..." Having the ability to move Braun to first while still having a stacked outfield is very nice. And having had the extra OF when Yelich was on the DL was big.
One knit to pick here, Hader is the Brewers' best player.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 25, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
One knit to pick here, Hader is the Brewers' best player.
You might be right, Wades. I have it Knebel and Yelich, then Hader. I have no doubt, though, that they would have hit the skids without Hader after Knebel went down.
Forgot to mention earlier than they also lost 2 other starters = Arcia and Pina.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 25, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
What seemed like an obvious error in not trying to trade some of the young outfield talent after signing Cain and trading for Yelich (Phillips and/or Santana in particular) now looks like another case of "Maybe Stearns knows what he's doing..." Having the ability to move Braun to first while still having a stacked outfield is very nice. And having had the extra OF when Yelich was on the DL was big.
One knit to pick here, Hader is the Brewers' best player.
I think Stearns may be the boy genius I was hoping for, few misses and has assembled a playoff contending club in only a couple years.
Quote from: Jockey on April 25, 2018, 04:31:52 PM
1st place team in the NL Central has been getting killed with injuries.
Yelich was DL for a while. Knebel & Thames out a couple months each.
That's the 2 best players on the team plus another of the top 7 or 8.
They will be PED'ing it up and on the road to recovery in no time.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 25, 2018, 10:06:48 PM
They will be PED'ing it up and on the road to recovery in no time.
Brewers fans can only hope.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 25, 2018, 10:07:45 PM
Brewers fans can only hope.
Does this count? I need a ruling.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 25, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
What seemed like an obvious error in not trying to trade some of the young outfield talent after signing Cain and trading for Yelich (Phillips and/or Santana in particular) now looks like another case of "Maybe Stearns knows what he's doing..." Having the ability to move Braun to first while still having a stacked outfield is very nice. And having had the extra OF when Yelich was on the DL was big.
One knit to pick here, Hader is the Brewers' best player.
Best in his niche? Probably. He's awesome. But Cain and Yelich are the best players.
The White Sox are only 7.5 out of first!
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on April 26, 2018, 12:52:00 AM
Best in his niche? Probably. He's awesome. But Cain and Yelich are the best players.
What's his "niche?" He comes in anywhere from like the 5th inning to the 9th inning. He's given up 2 earned runs in 15 1/3 innings this season and is eleventh in strikeouts this year. That's right, eleventh in all of baseball in strikeouts having pitched 15 1/3 innings.
In my opinion he's been not only the best player in the Brewers but also the most valuable/most important Brewer.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 26, 2018, 06:36:42 AM
That's right, eleventh in all of baseball in strikeouts having pitched 15 1/3 innings.
He's been very good, but Hader's 31 strikeouts makes him tied for 30th in all of baseball.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 26, 2018, 06:36:42 AM
What's his "niche?" He comes in anywhere from like the 5th inning to the 9th inning. He's given up 2 earned runs in 15 1/3 innings this season and is eleventh in strikeouts this year. That's right, eleventh in all of baseball in strikeouts having pitched 15 1/3 innings.
In my opinion he's been not only the best player in the Brewers but also the most valuable/most important Brewer.
I would have to say that someone's who played only 15 innings out of 225+ can not be the most important player. Maybe he is the best, but he can't really be the most important.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 26, 2018, 06:36:42 AM
What's his "niche?" He comes in anywhere from like the 5th inning to the 9th inning. He's given up 2 earned runs in 15 1/3 innings this season and is eleventh in strikeouts this year. That's right, eleventh in all of baseball in strikeouts having pitched 15 1/3 innings.
In my opinion he's been not only the best player in the Brewers but also the most valuable/most important Brewer.
Think that's an aged stat re: strikeouts, but he's been extremely impressive in the early going, and I agree that his value in how it has allowed us to load-balance a pitching rotation that just isn't capable of routinely getting deep into games (and Counsell doesn't seem to want that).
That said, Cain and Yelich are the most important Brewers and it's not even close. The strain that having two guys getting on base at the rate they are with the heart of the order coming up cannot be overstated. It allows Braun, Shaw and the 1Bs to play the role they play best.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on April 26, 2018, 09:01:28 AM
He's been very good, but Hader's 31 strikeouts makes him tied for 30th in all of baseball.
Sorry, you're right. Not sure where I heard the 11th number, think I heard it either on the radio or a game broadcast against KC. Maybe he was 11th going into the KC series? Not sure.
Quote from: GB Warrior on April 26, 2018, 09:41:46 AM
Think that's an aged stat re: strikeouts, but he's been extremely impressive in the early going, and I agree that his value in how it has allowed us to load-balance a pitching rotation that just isn't capable of routinely getting deep into games (and Counsell doesn't seem to want that).
That said, Cain and Yelich are the most important Brewers and it's not even close. The strain that having two guys getting on base at the rate they are with the heart of the order coming up cannot be overstated. It allows Braun, Shaw and the 1Bs to play the role they play best.
You may be right. But I love how he's being used right now. Any situation he's needed they're throwing him in. Without Hader I think the entire pitching staff falls completely apart. I'm not sure that's the case with the offense with Cain and Yelich (both of whom I love).
Quote from: ZaLiN on April 26, 2018, 01:29:12 AM
The White Sox are only 7.5 out of first!
They have been just brutal to watch. Nothing worse than watching pitchers who can't find the strike zone.
With that said, there have been a few bright spots.
On the pitching it is Lopez. Everyone else has been brutal. Kopech has been dominating AAA and Dunning and Cease are showing they are way too much for High-A ball. Rodon is likely to be back soon.
On the position player side, Moncada may really be something. It is amazing that he has been productive at all with his K-rate, but he can really obliterate the ball, and is lightning fast. Surprisingly enough, even with the K's I don't think his approach is terrible. He is a reasonably patient hitter and once he figures out how pitchers are approaching him he could be unreal. Even with his K rate, he is pacing at about a 7 bWAR season. That number would have him firmly in the top 10 in baseball.
Tim Anderson has also been encouraging (at the plate at least, still needs work on the mental side and on his D). Most encouraging has been his walks. He walked 13 times last year in 606 PA. This year he has 7 in 86. Not world beating, but progress. Another huge positive for Tim is that he has been a terror on the basepaths. After stealing only 15 last year, he already has 8 this year. I love the thought of Anderson and Moncada causing havoc on the basepaths. Tim has always hit pretty well (in the minors) so I am willing to chalk up his avg. to the special situation last year as he looks much more settled this year. I think him hitting .275-.280 is completely realistic with some good power and speed.
Yolmer has also looked like he can be an everyday player. He, again, is a guy that hit pretty well in the minors, so I wouldn't be surprised if he hits well in the bigs, it has just taken him some time to get his feet under him. He is excellent with the glove at any IF position and if he can hit in the .270-.280 range could really be a useful player.
Other than that, Abreu has been himself which is expected. This pitching staff is just horrendous. The starters, the pen. Yikes. They are a disaster.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 26, 2018, 01:39:28 PM
They have been just brutal to watch. Nothing worse than watching pitchers who can't find the strike zone.
With that said, there have been a few bright spots.
On the pitching it is Lopez. Everyone else has been brutal. Kopech has been dominating AAA and Dunning and Cease are showing they are way too much for High-A ball. Rodon is likely to be back soon.
On the position player side, Moncada may really be something. It is amazing that he has been productive at all with his K-rate, but he can really obliterate the ball, and is lightning fast. Surprisingly enough, even with the K's I don't think his approach is terrible. He is a reasonably patient hitter and once he figures out how pitchers are approaching him he could be unreal. Even with his K rate, he is pacing at about a 7 bWAR season. That number would have him firmly in the top 10 in baseball.
Tim Anderson has also been encouraging (at the plate at least, still needs work on the mental side and on his D). Most encouraging has been his walks. He walked 13 times last year in 606 PA. This year he has 7 in 86. Not world beating, but progress. Another huge positive for Tim is that he has been a terror on the basepaths. After stealing only 15 last year, he already has 8 this year. I love the thought of Anderson and Moncada causing havoc on the basepaths. Tim has always hit pretty well (in the minors) so I am willing to chalk up his avg. to the special situation last year as he looks much more settled this year. I think him hitting .275-.280 is completely realistic with some good power and speed.
Yolmer has also looked like he can be an everyday player. He, again, is a guy that hit pretty well in the minors, so I wouldn't be surprised if he hits well in the bigs, it has just taken him some time to get his feet under him. He is excellent with the glove at any IF position and if he can hit in the .270-.280 range could really be a useful player.
Other than that, Abreu has been himself which is expected. This pitching staff is just horrendous. The starters, the pen. Yikes. They are a disaster.
Trust the process.
They'll win it all again in only 70 years or so.
Quote from: MU82 on April 26, 2018, 09:08:13 PM
Trust the process.
They'll win it all again in only 70 years or so.
Young pitching is such a crapshoot. I think Hahn has done a nice job overall and it's still early - I'm intrigued to see how it works out.
Obviously no guarantee it will work out like it did for the Cubs and Astros.
Quite a pitching duel in Chicago tonight. That's the Hendricks I like to see.
Edwards has been outstanding.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 26, 2018, 09:34:33 PM
Young pitching is such a crapshoot. I think Hahn has done a nice job overall and it's still early - I'm intrigued to see how it works out.
No doubt there is risk. What I like about how the Sox pitching prospects are set up is the depth and range. They have guys at each level (including MLB) that could be top of the rotation guys, true Ace potential, like Rodon and Lopez at the MLB level, Kopech at the AAA level. Dunning and Hansen at the AA level (though to our point he hasn't pitched due to an arm issue since spring training) and Cease at High A. They also have a bunch of guys that are decent prospects for mid-rotation spots and just a bunch of guys, especially very high velocity guys that are working their way towards a job in the pen.
Now certainly some of these guys will get injured, some will stall out, some of the starters will end in the pen and so on, but if they get just 2 of the starters to pair with Rodon and Lopez, that would be great as they will also have money to spend, and finding guys to fill out the rotation shouldn't be as costly as it was for the Cubs, for example, who didn't really focus on pitching, and it cost them a ton of money (Lester, Lackey, Darvish) or prospect capital (Chapman and Quintana), and that was even with them hitting home runs with Arrieta and Hendricks. But, they had the resources to do it, and hopefully if the Sox are in a similar situation, they will have the resources as well. The Cubs having guys like Torres and Jimenez, who were essentially blocked and superfluous as trade assets was incredibly valuable.
I like how the Sox have been able to stockpile both hitting and pitching prospects, of course this came at the cost of trading some really good MLB players, which the Cubs and Astros didn't have, at least to the same degree. But I like the depth of the farm both on the mound and in the lineup. Just have to see who works out.
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 27, 2018, 10:47:36 AM
No doubt there is risk. What I like about how the Sox pitching prospects are set up is the depth and range. They have guys at each level (including MLB) that could be top of the rotation guys, true Ace potential, like Rodon and Lopez at the MLB level, Kopech at the AAA level. Dunning and Hansen at the AA level (though to our point he hasn't pitched due to an arm issue since spring training) and Cease at High A. They also have a bunch of guys that are decent prospects for mid-rotation spots and just a bunch of guys, especially very high velocity guys that are working their way towards a job in the pen.
Now certainly some of these guys will get injured, some will stall out, some of the starters will end in the pen and so on, but if they get just 2 of the starters to pair with Rodon and Lopez, that would be great as they will also have money to spend, and finding guys to fill out the rotation shouldn't be as costly as it was for the Cubs, for example, who didn't really focus on pitching, and it cost them a ton of money (Lester, Lackey, Darvish) or prospect capital (Chapman and Quintana), and that was even with them hitting home runs with Arrieta and Hendricks. But, they had the resources to do it, and hopefully if the Sox are in a similar situation, they will have the resources as well. The Cubs having guys like Torres and Jimenez, who were essentially blocked and superfluous as trade assets was incredibly valuable.
I like how the Sox have been able to stockpile both hitting and pitching prospects, of course this came at the cost of trading some really good MLB players, which the Cubs and Astros didn't have, at least to the same degree. But I like the depth of the farm both on the mound and in the lineup. Just have to see who works out.
Isn't there some serious concern regarding Rodon's future at this point due to the injuries?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on April 27, 2018, 10:55:11 AM
Isn't there some serious concern regarding Rodon's future at this point due to the injuries?
I would say there is concern, though not quite serious yet. Shoulder crap is scary though. How he shows this year will likely tell the tale. Reports are that he was already hitting mid to high 90s in extended spring training.
Brewers really aren't showing well against the Cubs this year.
Two straight good starts for Carson Fulmer following two straight disasters. I guess that's the story on young pitching, but at least he is showing glimpses for hope.
The @Cubs have shut out the Brewers FOUR TIMES this month, tying the most shutouts by the Cubs against any opponent in any month all-time.
It is the first time the Brewers have been shut out four times in a month by any opponent.
https://twitter.com/statsbystats/status/990352476825182208?s=21 (https://twitter.com/statsbystats/status/990352476825182208?s=21)
Quote from: buckchuckler on April 28, 2018, 04:49:32 PM
Brewers really aren't showing well against the Cubs this year.
Cubs 6 - 1 vs Brewers and have allowed a total of 9 runs in the 7 games, 5 of which came in the only Milwaukee win.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on April 28, 2018, 05:21:53 PM
The @Cubs have shut out the Brewers FOUR TIMES this month, tying the most shutouts by the Cubs against any opponent in any month all-time.
It is the first time the Brewers have been shut out four times in a month by any opponent.
https://twitter.com/statsbystats/status/990352476825182208?s=21 (https://twitter.com/statsbystats/status/990352476825182208?s=21)
Seems to be a bit of "big brother-little brother" going on here. Overall the Brewers have been playing better than the Cubs, but in the head to head matchups, the Brewers can't get anything done.
Half of the brewers losses this year are to the Cubs.
(http://ohdios.org/uploads/img/3/original_od_55e466bd852ec.gif)
Quote from: ZiggysWhiteWineBoy on April 28, 2018, 07:45:14 PM
Half of the brewers losses this year are to the Cubs.
~50% of the Cubs wins too...
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on April 28, 2018, 05:21:53 PM
It is the first time the Brewers have been shut out four times in a month by any opponent.
https://twitter.com/statsbystats/status/990352476825182208?s=21 (https://twitter.com/statsbystats/status/990352476825182208?s=21)
Correction....five times....ouch.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 29, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
Correction....five times....ouch.
Conveniently found time to stop back at Scoop again hey? What nice timing. Once again. Lol.
Chubbies fans sure seem excited about beating a team that isn't worthy of the "rival" title in some April baseball to move a whopping one game ahead of them in th standings.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 29, 2018, 08:06:54 PM
Conveniently found time to stop back at Scoop again hey? What nice timing. Once again. Lol.
Chubbies fans sure seem excited about beating a team that isn't worthy of the "rival" title in some April baseball to move a whopping one game ahead of them in th standings.
Little man....took you all of 11 minutes that time....you were waiting, huh? Finish reading through my post history yet? Hilarious.
Thought I was pretty clear for you last time....I don't live on here and need this place to feel better about myself like you do...averaging 5 posts a day. Yes, weekends are much more convenient for me here....as is after we crushed and embarrassed your squad again. That was the worst offensive performance I've ever seen in a four game series.
Not that excited about beating a team that only feasts on last place teams....although I am excited to see our starting pitching begin to catch to the bullpen....and get you going again....although that seems to be your routine here.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 29, 2018, 08:21:27 PM
Little man....took you all of 11 minutes that time....you were waiting, huh? Finish reading through my post history yet? Hilarious.
Thought I was pretty clear for you last time....I don't live on here and need this place to feel better about myself like you do...averaging 5 posts a day. Yes, weekends are much more convenient for me here....as is after we crushed and embarrassed your squad again. That was the worst offensive performance I've ever seen in a four game series.
Not that excited about beating a team that only feasts on last place teams....although I am excited to see our starting pitching begin to catch to the bullpen....and get you going again....although that seems to be your routine here.
And you responded in 15 minutes? That 4 extra minutes to respond shows how much more important things you have to do than me! What does that have to do with anything? Lol. FIBs are hilarious.
What is also hilarious is when you start a post with "little man" despite the fact that you literally only show up when your team wins. Takes a real big man to go into hiding when your team is losing and then come and pound your chest for all to see when your team wins! Congrats bud!
Fellas, take it to the other thread.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 29, 2018, 08:52:52 PM
::)
Right....a very uncommon way for fans to refer to "their" team...how do you know I'm not Jason Heyward?
Quote from: wadesworld on April 29, 2018, 08:29:22 PM
And you responded in 15 minutes? That 4 extra minutes to respond shows how much more important things you have to do than me! What does that have to do with anything? Lol. FIBs are hilarious.
What is also hilarious is when you start a post with "little man" despite the fact that you literally only show up when your team wins. Takes a real big man to go into hiding when your team is losing and then come and pound your chest for all to see when your team wins! Congrats bud!
Had to go back and proofread that one, huh? You certainly are a glutton for punishment. I haven't been here for 3 weeks and respond to a post of mine in minutes....coincidence, right?
I get it....you're frustrated that your team is getting waxed by the team you hate more than anything in the whole wide world....I'd be annoyed too if Chatwood had the same RBI total as Yelich, Cain, Braun, Shaw, etc. combined for the series.
Please don't take the fact that I wasn't here posting 10 times day like you as hiding....as far as I can tell, the Cubs have played better than average the last couple weeks...you surely noticed that this weekend.
I'll be back after "our" Milwaukee home games in June....but only if the series goes our way....I'll shy away otherwise. I'm sure the others will enjoy your 400+ posts in the meantime.
Until then...back to reading my post history young man...
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 29, 2018, 09:10:48 PM
Right....a very uncommon way for fans to refer to "their" team...how do you know I'm not Jason Heyward?
Because you have left no doubt that you're a FIB and Jason Hayward is from GA.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 29, 2018, 09:23:05 PM
Had to go back and proofread that one, huh? You certainly are a glutton for punishment. I haven't been here for 3 weeks and respond to a post of mine in minutes....coincidence, right?
I get it....you're frustrated that your team is getting waxed by the team you hate more than anything in the whole wide world....I'd be annoyed too if Chatwood had the same RBI total as Yelich, Cain, Braun, Shaw, etc. combined for the series.
Please don't take the fact that I wasn't here posting 10 times day like you as hiding....as far as I can tell, the Cubs have played better than average the last couple weeks...you surely noticed that this weekend.
I'll be back after "our" Milwaukee home games in June....but only if the series goes our way....I'll shy away otherwise. I'm sure the others will enjoy your 400+ posts in the meantime.
Until then...back to reading my post history young man...
Proofread? Huh? What are you even talking about? Lol. You probably should go back into hiding, that'd be a good idea for you.
You're the one who obsesses over post numbers and amount of time between responses. You're way too cool for Scoop...except when your beloved Chubbies do well. Once again, takes a big man!
I don't really care much about April baseball. Much more interested in the NBA Playoffs. But congrats on the Chubbies moving a game in front of the Brewers!
You've literally shown up twice...both when the Chubs finally stopped losing. I know, I know, just a big coincidence your all important life just happened to time out so you had some downtime for Scoop. Lol.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 29, 2018, 09:27:38 PM
Because you have left no doubt that you're a FIB and Jason Hayward is from GA.
Proofread? Huh? What are you even talking about? Lol. You probably should go back into hiding, that'd be a good idea for you.
You're the one who obsesses over post numbers and amount of time between responses. You're way too cool for Scoop...except when your beloved Chubbies do well. Once again, takes a big man!
I don't really care much about April baseball. Much more interested in the NBA Playoffs. But congrats on the Chubbies moving a game in front of the Brewers!
You've literally shown up twice...both when the Chubs finally stopped losing. I know, I know, just a big coincidence your all important life just happened to time out so you had some downtime for Scoop. Lol.
Proofread...yes, as in you were so worked up, you re-read your response and added to/corrected it. If you don't care about April baseball, what are you doing here?
I've posted twice....when the Cubs destroyed the Brewers...it's called talking a little smack with your little brother....I seemed to have missed a prolonged Cubs losing streak....all in good in fun, young lad....almost warm enough to hang in the MP parking lot, huh?
Now back to reading my post history and using your adolescent nicknames....
Sorry to the others....I shouldn't enjoy this as much as I do....last one for now.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on April 29, 2018, 09:45:21 PM
Proofread...yes, as in you were so worked up, you re-read your response and added to/corrected it. If you don't care about April baseball, what are you doing here?
I've posted twice....when the Cubs destroyed the Brewers...it's called talking a little smack with your little brother....I seemed to have missed a prolonged Cubs losing streak....all in good in fun, young lad....almost warm enough to hang in the MP parking lot, huh?
Now back to reading my post history and using your adolescent nicknames....
Sorry to the others....I shouldn't enjoy this as much as I do....last one for now.
I got worked up, reread my response, and added to/corrected it? Lol. Proofread?
And I'm calling out the guy who calls other "little guy" while at the same time showing up only when his team is winning. The irony of that is too good to pass up. There's a difference between "I don't really care much" and "don't care about." Maybe you should spend more time reading the words on the page and less time trying to calculate the amount of time between posts. It'll help you out a little bit.
It is funny to see you get all worked up about time between responses when they're basically the same between us and to see someone calling others "little man" and then crying about "adolescent nicknames." Have it both ways bud. It's what FIBs do. (Shoot, sorry, did I hurt your feelings?)
Quote from: wadesworld on April 29, 2018, 09:54:02 PM
I got worked up, reread my response, and added to/corrected it? Lol. Proofread?
And I'm calling out the guy who calls other "little guy" while at the same time showing up only when his team is winning. The irony of that is too good to pass up. There's a difference between "I don't really care much" and "don't care about." Maybe you should spend more time reading the words on the page and less time trying to calculate the amount of time between posts. It'll help you out a little bit.
It is funny to see you get all worked up about time between responses when they're basically the same between us and to see someone calling others "little man" and then crying about "adolescent nicknames." Have it both ways bud. It's what FIBs do. (Shoot, sorry, did I hurt your feelings?)
Why do you literally just attack other people? Like even in main Marquette threads 85% of your posts are attacking, berating, putting down, or just being a dick to other Marquette fans. Could you grow up a little?
Also.
(https://i.imgur.com/MKAzzfi.png)
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on April 30, 2018, 12:43:00 AM
Also.
(https://i.imgur.com/MKAzzfi.png)
For someone who is "sorry to break the news but, like, we have the cards. That's a rivalry" and is "big brother" you sure are pretty excited about moving a game up on "little brother" in April. Again, congrats!
Me and this thread
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fDO2Nk0ImzvvW/giphy.gif)
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 30, 2018, 08:00:10 AM
Me and this thread
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fDO2Nk0ImzvvW/giphy.gif)
They all refuse to post in the designated thread
I umpired youth baseball both Saturday and Sunday.
In one of the Saturday games, the pitcher struck out the side on 9 pitches. And in our third and last Sunday game, the pitcher clinched his team's victory by retiring the side on 3 pitches.
Each pitcher got a big kick out of it when I told him, "Congratulations - you tied a world record!"
Obviously it's still very early but I'm surprised at the struggles of the Nats and Dodgers so far.
Quote from: MU82 on April 30, 2018, 10:19:10 AM
In one of the Saturday games, the pitcher struck out the side on 9 pitches.
"Immaculate Innings" are on the rise.
https://deadspin.com/heres-yet-another-immaculate-inning-this-year-1797489572 (https://deadspin.com/heres-yet-another-immaculate-inning-this-year-1797489572)
Hader in 2 2/3 tonight, 8 K's, 1 BB to finish off the game. I don't remember ever seeing anything like that.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on April 30, 2018, 10:24:18 PM
Hader in 2 2/3 tonight, 8 K's, 1 BB to finish off the game. I don't remember ever seeing anything like that.
According to Elias it hasn't happened ever in 'modern' baseball (like 1900).
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on April 30, 2018, 10:24:18 PM
Hader in 2 2/3 tonight, 8 K's, 1 BB to finish off the game. I don't remember ever seeing anything like that.
He's unbelievable.
I think that was the sound of the Dodgers becoming the favorites to land Machado in a trade, if they are in a position that warrants such a move in a month anyways.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 01, 2018, 09:38:34 AM
I think that was the sound of the Dodgers becoming the favorites to land Machado in a trade, if they are in a position that warrants such a move in a month anyways.
Yep, I would imagine they take a wait and see for a couple months to gauge where they're at. Especially now without Seager, its kind of amazing to sit back and look at all the holes in that roster given how much money they've spent. If Urias comes back and pitches well, they probably have the pitching depth to stay competitive - no one else jumps out other than Kershaw, but the back end of their rotation can win games. But their lineup doesn't exactly strike fear in your heart.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 30, 2018, 11:35:26 PM
He's unbelievable.
I am guessing he learned his technique from Jake in the O's system...
QuoteOrioles director of pitching development Rick Peterson said an increase of that much velocity was certainly not normal.
http://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2012/12/a-look-at-josh-hader-and-his-stunning-velocity-increase-last-summer.html
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 01, 2018, 10:09:59 AM
I am guessing he learned his technique from Jake in the O's system...
http://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2012/12/a-look-at-josh-hader-and-his-stunning-velocity-increase-last-summer.html
This is a stunning development.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 01, 2018, 10:09:59 AM
I am guessing he learned his technique from Jake in the O's system...
http://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2012/12/a-look-at-josh-hader-and-his-stunning-velocity-increase-last-summer.html
I guess comparing an 18 year old high school pitcher to a 28 year old career minor leaguer is intelligent...
But if that's the case and Hader got on the same PED program Arrieta did but 10 years earlier, my goodness will the Brewers have a nice piece in their bullpen for years to come. I can only hope!
Quote from: MUBurrow on May 01, 2018, 09:59:48 AM
But their lineup doesn't exactly strike fear in your heart.
I think they miss Justin Turner exponentially.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 01, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
I guess comparing an 18 year old high school pitcher to a 28 year old career minor leaguer is intelligent...
But if that's the case and Hader got on the same PED program Arrieta did but 10 years earlier, my goodness will the Brewers have a nice piece in their bullpen for years to come. I can only hope!
(https://i.imgur.com/3c5kXg5.jpg)
Great read for White Sox fans. A nice recap of some of the top minor league performers through the season's first month.
http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox/2018/05/white-sox-prospects-of-the-month-april-2018/
If you are a Sox fan, and haven't checked out futuresox.com, it is a great way to spend a few minutes a day. Especially because you don't get the Jake Arrieta talk for the 4,000th time.
Weird that Marquettefan94 is nowhere to be found. Takes a real man to come pounding his chest when things are going his team's way but goes into hiding as soon as things take a turn.
While Cubs fans are hilariously delusional, at least most show up here no matter how the team is doing. At least I can respect that. Marquettefan94 is way too much of a man for me, though. I can't hang with that.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 02, 2018, 10:16:33 PM
Weird that Marquettefan94 is nowhere to be found. Takes a real man to come pounding his chest when things are going his team's way but goes into hiding as soon as things take a turn.
While Cubs fans are hilariously delusional, at least most show up here no matter how the team is doing. At least I can respect that. Marquettefan94 is way too much of a man for me, though. I can't hang with that.
It ain't the weekend is it? ;)
Quote from: wadesworld on May 02, 2018, 10:16:33 PM
Weird that Marquettefan94 is nowhere to be found. Takes a real man to come pounding his chest when things are going his team's way but goes into hiding as soon as things take a turn.
While Cubs fans are hilariously delusional, at least most show up here no matter how the team is doing. At least I can respect that. Marquettefan94 is way too much of a man for me, though. I can't hang with that.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/hMKjvTYlSaFCU/200w.webp)
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/3DiUM4dGYyali/200w.webp)
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/43PuxrJGwr0ys/200w.webp)
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/856456b4fac99f838d6946c988a34f7b/tenor.gif?itemid=8607839)
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 02, 2018, 11:02:28 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/856456b4fac99f838d6946c988a34f7b/tenor.gif?itemid=8607839)
You can't quit the scoop life.
Man, the Reds, O's, Royals and White Sox are bad.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 03, 2018, 07:48:36 AM
Man, the Reds, O's, Royals and White Sox are bad.
Trust the process.
Or in the Royals' case, the reverse process that took them from a championship just a few years ago to yecch-dom now.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 03, 2018, 07:48:36 AM
Man, the Reds, O's, Royals and White Sox are bad.
Last season, 0 MLB teams lost 100 games. 7 teams are currently on pace to lose 100 (BAL, CWS, KC, TEX, MIA, CIN, SD).
Detroit is the tallest midget. Playing decent baseball against bad teams. Running the bases aggressively, adequate starting pitching. They have and will continue to get beat up by the better teams. Not enough offensive firepower, shaky bullpen. 72 wins.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 03, 2018, 09:18:36 AM
Last season, 0 MLB teams lost 100 games. 7 teams are currently on pace to lose 100 (BAL, CWS, KC, TEX, MIA, CIN, SD).
All these teams decided to implement Astro's' tanking strategy. But if 8 lose 100, that high draft pick strategy pretty much backfires. The CWS already made the majority of their deals but the others are in trouble. Back to the age of free agency?
I'm totally fine with the Sox being terrible this year again. If you're not going to go to the playoffs, it's better to be awful than mediocre. My expectations are for them to show some promise next year, and outright contend in 2020. This season needs to show growth from Moncada, Anderson, Lopez, Giolito. They've got the 4th pick this year to add to their farm system, and if they get another top 10 pick next year, even better. Burger's out for the year, Jimenez either comes up this year or May of next year, and Robert still needs all this year and next year in the minors. They'll call Kopech up in either July or August of this year.
Great article on some baseball "science".
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/trevor-bauer-might-have-conducted-an-experiment/
Is it cheating? Should it be allowed? Is it any different than equipment changes that help batters - such as the 'C' flap on the helmet that allows guys to be more aggressive when hitting?
Lotsa smart baseball guys here - would love your opinions.
Quote from: Jockey on May 03, 2018, 04:13:01 PM
Great article on some baseball "science".
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/trevor-bauer-might-have-conducted-an-experiment/
Is it cheating? Should it be allowed? Is it any different than equipment changes that help batters - such as the 'C' flap on the helmet that allows guys to be more aggressive when hitting?
Lotsa smart baseball guys here - would love your opinions.
Putting a foreign substance on the ball pretty clearly seems like a rules violation to me. It is a rule that should be enforced in my opinion. If MLB wants to throw pitchers a bone, they can look at changing the rule, but this seems like cheating at this point. I wonder if they could use the statcast data to find anomalies in spin rates to detect when guys are using it?
It is a teensy bit odd that Gerrit Cole goes to the AL and posts insane numbers that have correlated to a mysterious spin rate increase.
If Bauer did this research, he could have kept it to himself and benefited, but he has drawn some serious attention to the situation and I hope it results in a bit of a crackdown.
** Cool article by the way, thanks for posting the link.
Sorta related, but there was a massive ball tampering scandle in cricket last month.
Basically Australia got caught sandpapering the cricket ball (huge no-no because you use the same ball for 80 overs) and their captain and vice captain were banned for a year, and the guy who sandpapered the ball was banned for 8 months.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering_scandal
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 03, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
All these teams decided to implement Astro's' tanking strategy. But if 8 lose 100, that high draft pick strategy pretty much backfires. The CWS already made the majority of their deals but the others are in trouble. Back to the age of free agency?
Agreed that the sellers and tankers markets are getting oversaturated, and there might actually be good value via free agency as compared to previous free agent markets. Rentals just aren't worth much of anything right now, and teams that are one or two pieces away can really add top tier free agents to be cheaply. I do think that this year's market was depressed by everyone being butt, though, and the death of free agency is being overstated.
Ball tamperin' sounds like serious chit, aina?
Quote from: wadesworld on May 02, 2018, 10:16:33 PM
Weird that Marquettefan94 is nowhere to be found. Takes a real man to come pounding his chest when things are going his team's way but goes into hiding as soon as things take a turn.
While Cubs fans are hilariously delusional, at least most show up here no matter how the team is doing. At least I can respect that. Marquettefan94 is way too much of a man for me, though. I can't hang with that.
You really are a consumed, insufferable little rascal, aren't you. Who could've predicted you'd seek and call me out? How far have you gotten in reading through my post history? I really have you on the hook it seems.
Yes, I am ashamed and devastated the Cubs lost a series to Colorado....am just pulling myself out of bed from yesterday and I'm here now to prove my manhood by admitting to it and hoping to earn your respect. Also hoping there's still enough season to recover and the Brewers don't just run away with this thing.
Hope the NBA playoffs are treating you well and bringing a little, needed joy your way.
I'll hang up and wait for your response in 9 minutes...
xoxo
p.s. the gifs by the others were priceless
p.s.s. if you'd prefer, I can continue to pick you apart in the pissing match or PM, your choice
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on May 03, 2018, 07:15:24 PM
You really are a consumed, insufferable little rascal, aren't you. Who could've predicted you'd seek and call me out? How far have you gotten in reading through my post history? I really have you on the hook it seems.
Yes, I am ashamed and devastated the Cubs lost a series to Colorado....am just pulling myself out of bed from yesterday and I'm here now to prove my manhood by admitting to it and hoping to earn your respect. Also hoping there's still enough season to recover and the Brewers don't just run away with this thing.
Hope the NBA playoffs are treating you well and bringing a little, needed joy your way.
I'll hang up and wait for your response in 9 minutes...
xoxo
p.s. the gifs by the others were priceless
p.s.s. if you'd prefer, I can continue to pick you apart in the pissing match or PM, your choice
The "guy" who worries about how long he waits to respond to a post and ends posts with "xoxo" and PS's is talking about "picking [me] apart." The irony. I didn't realize MUScoop turned into a dating website. Very weird stuff.
"Pick me apart" at your leisure. I understand your time is too important to waste, so through whatever medium you need to be most efficient oh ever important Marquettefan94, please choose.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 03, 2018, 05:53:36 PM
Putting a foreign substance on the ball pretty clearly seems like a rules violation to me. It is a rule that should be enforced in my opinion. If MLB wants to throw pitchers a bone, they can look at changing the rule, but this seems like cheating at this point. I wonder if they could use the statcast data to find anomalies in spin rates to detect when guys are using it?
It is a teensy bit odd that Gerrit Cole goes to the AL and posts insane numbers that have correlated to a mysterious spin rate increase.
If Bauer did this research, he could have kept it to himself and benefited, but he has drawn some serious attention to the situation and I hope it results in a bit of a crackdown.
** Cool article by the way, thanks for posting the link.
Looks like we are in agreement here.
I think the Nationals are the best team in the National League, and they're starting to play like it. The weekend series against the Phillies could be good.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 04, 2018, 10:42:47 AM
I think the Nationals are the best team in the National League, and they're starting to play like it. The weekend series against the Phillies could be good.
Best pitcher and best hitter in the NL to go with a solid surrounding cast. The Nationals have been the most talented team for the past couple years. Injuries and management has been their downfall.
Has tanking really become a thing in baseball? I get it in football or basketball where a star QB or LeBron might be available at the top. But I view baseball as so inexact that a never thought a super high draft choice was that big a deal. Man, there are some truly bad ball clubs this year. Several are already 'out of it' from any reasonable standpoint and it's not even Memorial Day.
Quote from: jsglow on May 04, 2018, 01:01:11 PM
Has tanking really become a thing in baseball? I get it in football or basketball where a star QB or LeBron might be available at the top. But I view baseball as so inexact that a never thought a super high draft choice was that big a deal. Man, there are some truly bad ball clubs this year. Several are already 'out of it' from any reasonable standpoint and it's not even Memorial Day.
I think tanking in baseball is more about trading experienced but expensive players for prospects.
Quote from: jsglow on May 04, 2018, 01:01:11 PM
Has tanking really become a thing in baseball? I get it in football or basketball where a star QB or LeBron might be available at the top. But I view baseball as so inexact that a never thought a super high draft choice was that big a deal. Man, there are some truly bad ball clubs this year. Several are already 'out of it' from any reasonable standpoint and it's not even Memorial Day.
I don't know that it's so much tanking for a draft pick as it is trading your experienced players for future prospects. Teams are trading players that won't be factors when they are contending like when the Brewers traded Lucroy.
The losing is just a byproduct of getting rid of good players and going young.
For the record, the Orioles aren't trying to tank. They are just that bad!
Quote from: jsglow on May 04, 2018, 01:01:11 PM
Has tanking really become a thing in baseball? I get it in football or basketball where a star QB or LeBron might be available at the top. But I view baseball as so inexact that a never thought a super high draft choice was that big a deal. Man, there are some truly bad ball clubs this year. Several are already 'out of it' from any reasonable standpoint and it's not even Memorial Day.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/mlb/la-sp-baseball-tanking-20180201-story.html
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 04, 2018, 01:06:20 PM
I don't know that it's so much tanking for a draft pick as it is trading your experienced players for future prospects. Teams are trading players that won't be factors when they are contending like when the Brewers traded Lucroy.
The losing is just a byproduct of getting rid of good players and going young.
Quote from: #bansultan on May 04, 2018, 01:05:21 PM
I think tanking in baseball is more about trading experienced but expensive players for prospects.
Cool. I actually have no problem with that. The only way most small market teams can win is by assembling and growing their own talent when it's young. I was totally in favor of the Crew 'rebuild' when they undertook the project.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 04, 2018, 01:06:20 PM
I don't know that it's so much tanking for a draft pick as it is trading your experienced players for future prospects. Teams are trading players that won't be factors when they are contending like when the Brewers traded Lucroy.
The losing is just a byproduct of getting rid of good players and going young.
You are spot on. The last 2 WS teams tanked to get to where they were. Brewers and Braves tanked and both are currently in place. The Phillies are winning. I think that until we get a salary cap like football (doubtful), we will always have a mixture in the Playoffs of big money teams and smaller market teams who tanked or semi-tanked to try to get to the top.
Matt Harvey has been DFA-ed. Yikes.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 04, 2018, 01:06:20 PM
I don't know that it's so much tanking for a draft pick as it is trading your experienced players for future prospects. Teams are trading players that won't be factors when they are contending like when the Brewers traded Lucroy.
The losing is just a byproduct of getting rid of good players and going young.
Quote from: #bansultan on May 04, 2018, 01:05:21 PM
I think tanking in baseball is more about trading experienced but expensive players for prospects.
I think it's absolutely both, and one of the outcomes of trading established players for prospects is it leads to more losses and in turn a higher pick.
Quote from: MU82 on May 03, 2018, 08:05:07 AM
Trust the process.
Or in the Royals' case, the reverse process that took them from a championship just a few years ago to yecch-dom now.
Yosted.
Seriously, Ned Yost managing a WS winner was a travesty.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 04, 2018, 07:40:59 PM
Yosted.
Seriously, Ned Yost managing a WS winner was a travesty.
I was pretty stunned, too. I thought he was a complete buffoon when he managed the Brewers. Which I guess is better than being an incomplete buffoon.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 04, 2018, 07:40:59 PM
Yosted.
Seriously, Ned Yost managing a WS winner was a travesty.
Ned Yost managed that team, which was a bit unorthodox, completely perfectly.
Anyone watching the Cards/Cubs game? Ozuna just smoked a ball right too Bryant who couldn't make the play. And on a ball hit right to him, it was clearly not an error when he didn't make the play because the ball was just smoked. Wow.
Sidenote: I bet Nolan Arenado would have made the play though.
I feel like the Cubs have adopted an NBA mentality since winning the WS. They coast through the first half of the season, knowing that they're more talented than the teams going gung ho around them and they plan to turn it on in the second half, make the playoffs and go from there. It's frustrating to watch - there's no sense of urgency, Maddon's playing around with the leadoff spot, etc. That style can work in the NBA when talent typically trumps all and the top 8 teams get into the postseason. Baseball is different than that and sooner or later, I fear the Cubs will get burned.
That said, I still think they'll win the division and have a strong chance of winning the whole thing ;)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 07, 2018, 08:22:46 AM
I feel like the Cubs have adopted an NBA mentality since winning the WS. They coast through the first half of the season, knowing that they're more talented than the teams going gung ho around them and they plan to turn it on in the second half, make the playoffs and go from there. It's frustrating to watch - there's no sense of urgency, Maddon's playing around with the leadoff spot, etc. That style can work in the NBA when talent typically trumps all and the top 8 teams get into the postseason. Baseball is different than that and sooner or later, I fear the Cubs will get burned.
That said, I still think they'll win the division and have a strong chance of winning the whole thing ;)
The team is consistently finding ways to lose right now and their stars aren't performing like stars.
The defense has been very poor and continues to bite them in key situations.
The amount of soft contact has been disturbing and their inability to be productive with RISP and less than two outs continues to be a serious issue.
I really don't think the Cardinals or Brewers are particularly good either but I am starting to become concerned.
This is cool.
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/time-lapse-for-ichiros-mlb-hits-is-beautiful/c-275626658
Oh yeah, and the D-Backs are yet to lose a series. Even with some pretty big injuries.
Danny Farquhar being released from the hospital is the best news on either side of town all season.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/danny-farquhar-discharged-from-hospital-wont-be-cleared-to-play-this-season/ (https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/danny-farquhar-discharged-from-hospital-wont-be-cleared-to-play-this-season/)
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 07, 2018, 01:05:08 PM
This is cool.
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/time-lapse-for-ichiros-mlb-hits-is-beautiful/c-275626658
Dude knew what he was good at and stuck with it. The infield singles were impressive, but the left and center field singles even more so for a lefty. Amazing hitter.
Quote from: ZiggysWhiteWineBoy on May 08, 2018, 10:56:00 AM
Dude knew what he was good at and stuck with it. The infield singles were impressive, but the left and center field singles even more so for a lefty. Amazing hitter.
Pete Rose plus speed and defense. Great player.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 07, 2018, 08:22:46 AM
I feel like the Cubs have adopted an NBA mentality since winning the WS. They coast through the first half of the season, knowing that they're more talented than the teams going gung ho around them and they plan to turn it on in the second half, make the playoffs and go from there.
I do not think MLB ballplayers have this mentality. Every time up, they are trying to get a hit; every batter they face they are trying to strike out (or induce a groundball if they are that type of pitcher). I don't believe they start a season on cruise control.
Now if you are trying to get into some deep psychological stuff - they are on cruise control but don't know it - that's a whole 'nother level of speculation.
With the Brewers beating the Indians again last night, the entire AL Central is now under .500. The division has a combined record of 68-102.
Eloy Jimenez and Dylan Cease are hitter and pitcher of the week inbtheir respective leagues.
I think I really, really like that trade.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 09, 2018, 10:45:50 AM
Eloy Jimenez and Dylan Cease are hitter and pitcher of the week inbtheir respective leagues.
I think I really, really like that trade.
It made sense for the Cubs and it was a fantastic trade for the Sox. I drafted Eloy in the 30th round of my fantasy keeper league this year and feel good about it. He's pretty close to can't-miss, IMO.
I'm not worried about the Pirates but it would have been nice if the Sox didn't blow that lead today.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 09, 2018, 09:15:24 AM
With the Brewers beating the Indians again last night, the entire AL Central is now under .500. The division has a combined record of 68-102.
Only thing surprising about that is Cleveland but they'll eventually take control. MN may hang around.
Detroit is getting runners on base but not bringing them home. Too many injuries right now. Today's line up against the Rangers may be the weakest one I have seen anywhere in a long time. However, to their credit, they are playing hard every game. Not enough power, not enough pitching, not enough RBI producers, but interesting to watch.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 09, 2018, 07:30:47 PM
Only thing surprising about that is Cleveland but they'll eventually take control. MN may hang around.
Cleveland was 31-31 last year and went on to win 102 games. Not that they will do that again, but I think they'll be ok.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 09, 2018, 07:28:07 PM
It made sense for the Cubs and it was a fantastic trade for the Sox. I drafted Eloy in the 30th round of my fantasy keeper league this year and feel good about it. He's pretty close to can't-miss, IMO.
I'm not worried about the Pirates but it would have been nice if the Sox didn't blow that lead today.
The Sox bullpen is really something. I hope Jones can hold some semblance of health and effectiveness until he can be traded.
Freddy. ;D
The Dodgers just keep sinking. Not looking promising. They are going to have some serious work to do if they want to rebound.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 14, 2018, 06:29:31 PM
The Dodgers just keep sinking. Not looking promising. They are going to have some serious work to do if they want to rebound.
I know they've had some major injuries and some guys probably had career years last year but it's really surprising. Getting swept by the Reds in a 4 game series? Ouch.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 14, 2018, 06:40:31 PM
I know they've had some major injuries and some guys probably had career years last year but it's really surprising. Getting swept by the Reds in a 4 game series? Ouch.
Agreed. It's one thing to be playing okay (see Cubs), but the Dodgers just don't seem competitive this year.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 14, 2018, 06:29:31 PM
The Dodgers just keep sinking. Not looking promising. They are going to have some serious work to do if they want to rebound.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is the worst start to a season since they were the Brooklyn Dodgers.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23494112/meet-josh-hader-unlikely-face-mlb-strikeout-revolution
Nice article on Josh Hader.
#DarthHader
Ned Yost would have made Hader his "7th inning guy" and he would never have pitched him in any other situation...unless his eight inning guy got hurt, then he'd move Hader up to be his "8th inning guy".
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 15, 2018, 07:48:07 AM
World Series-winning manager Ned Yost would have made Hader his "7th inning guy" and he would never have pitched him in any other situation...unless his eight inning guy got hurt, then he'd move Hader up to be his "8th inning guy".
FIFY ;)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 15, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
FIFY ;)
That hurts, MM.
Who can forget Yost having his LOOGY on the mound and intentionally walking Ryan Howard, who can't hit lefties for spit, to pitch to Pat Burrell, who absolutely raked lefties...and then giving the reason for not brining in a right handed pitcher as
the LOOGY was a better fielder than the right handed pitcher he should have brought in.
Oh god, the stupid.
Robinson Cano suspended 80 games for PEDs.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23512723/robinson-cano-seattle-mariners-suspended-80-games-violating-joint-drug-agreement
Quote from: Pakuni on May 15, 2018, 01:10:00 PM
Robinson Cano suspended 80 games for PEDs.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23512723/robinson-cano-seattle-mariners-suspended-80-games-violating-joint-drug-agreement
Wow. First ballot Hall of Famer now will have to buy a ticket if he wants to see Cooperstown.
Does time on the DL count as part of his suspension? Broke his finger when hit by a pitch over the weekend.
Edit: read the article more fully. It counts but he doesn't get paid for it.
Quote from: tower912 on May 15, 2018, 02:20:48 PM
Edit: read the article more fully. It counts but he doesn't get paid for it.
Yeah, the cheater doesn't get paid for 80 games - so he loses around 11.8 million. But Seattle is still on the the hook for over 100 million through Cano's 40th birthday - a contract he received quite possibly based on phony numbers and one he'll now almost assuredly underperform. I think if a guy gets caught cheating the club should have the option of voiding his contract. Maybe guys like Robby would think twice.
I also wouldn't mind it if the club was punished - maybe don't let the Mariners replace Cano's roster spot for the 80 games.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 15, 2018, 07:48:07 AM
Ned Yost would have made Hader his "7th inning guy" and he would never have pitched him in any other situation...unless his eight inning guy got hurt, then he'd move Hader up to be his "8th inning guy".
The Knebel injury may have been a blessing. The closing based on match-ups and going more than one inning has been refreshing. Hopefully Knebel just becomes another part of the monster.
Quote from: chapman on May 15, 2018, 04:54:03 PM
The Knebel injury may have been a blessing. The closing based on match-ups and going more than one inning has been refreshing. Hopefully Knebel just becomes another part of the monster.
Wait, what? According to Marquettefan94 the Brewers couldn't close a game out.
Quote from: chapman on May 15, 2018, 04:54:03 PM
The Knebel injury may have been a blessing. The closing based on match-ups and going more than one inning has been refreshing. Hopefully Knebel just becomes another part of the monster.
Love this team. Shutouts are frustrating, but if they can weather the storm with injuries, they will be sitting pretty on the backend once Braun, Nelson, Knebel, Thames and others are back at full strength
What impresses me about the Crew this year is that at no point have they been running on more than about 5 out of 8 cylinders and yet they are still playing very good ball.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 15, 2018, 01:17:50 PM
Wow. First ballot Hall of Famer now will have to buy a ticket if he wants to see Cooperstown.
It will be interesting to see how the younger electorate treats these kinds of cases when players like Cano become HoF eligible. I mean, my colleagues barely shrugged about Pudge Rodriguez before voting him in, and Clemens and Bonds are getting more votes every year.
IMHO, if the vote was taken at the end of last season, Cano would have been a borderline candidate and probably not a first-ballot guy. Vlad Guerrero and Bagwell didn't get in on their first tries, and their numbers were much better.
Quote from: MU82 on May 16, 2018, 07:47:25 AM
It will be interesting to see how the younger electorate treats these kinds of cases when players like Cano become HoF eligible. I mean, my colleagues barely shrugged about Pudge Rodriguez before voting him in, and Clemens and Bonds are getting more votes every year.
IMHO, if the vote was taken at the end of last season, Cano would have been a borderline candidate and probably not a first-ballot guy. Vlad Guerrero and Bagwell didn't get in on their first tries, and their numbers were much better.
Cano has been a very good player for a long time and he had about a 5-6 year stretch where he was an absolute stud. However, if he played anywhere besides New York (or Boston), he'd be considered closer to the Scott Rolen/Larry Walker/Dave Parker category than to the first ballot HOFer category.
Quote from: MU82 on May 16, 2018, 07:47:25 AM
It will be interesting to see how the younger electorate treats these kinds of cases when players like Cano become HoF eligible. I mean, my colleagues barely shrugged about Pudge Rodriguez before voting him in, and Clemens and Bonds are getting more votes every year.
There's a good chance this comically ends with Bonds and Clemens not getting in by the tenth ballot, and missing the HOF. Then as the older voters drop off and younger voters less concerned with steroid use take over the HOF electorate, far less accomplished players with steroid histories getting in while Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and others have to rely on the Veterans Committee.
Quote from: MU82 on May 16, 2018, 07:47:25 AM
It will be interesting to see how the younger electorate treats these kinds of cases when players like Cano become HoF eligible. I mean, my colleagues barely shrugged about Pudge Rodriguez before voting him in, and Clemens and Bonds are getting more votes every year.
IMHO, if the vote was taken at the end of last season, Cano would have been a borderline candidate and probably not a first-ballot guy. Vlad Guerrero and Bagwell didn't get in on their first tries, and their numbers were much better.
I've never understood why Pudge didn't get lumped in with the rest of the obvious 'roid users. Those Rangers teams of the early 90s were basically one giant PED party.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 16, 2018, 08:21:13 AM
Cano has been a very good player for a long time and he had about a 5-6 year stretch where he was an absolute stud. However, if he played anywhere besides New York (or Boston), he'd be considered closer to the Scott Rolen/Larry Walker/Dave Parker category than to the first ballot HOFer category.
I'm not sure about this. His positional context matters. He is already 2nd all time in home runs by a 2B (though number 1, Jeff Kent, isn't in the hall). He is 8th in RBI, 6th in 2B, 14th in H (with over 2400, so even if he didn't get the 3K hits, he would have been pretty close). He is 10th in OPS (but 3 could probably be removed due to small sample size -- he is also the only one to have played only 2B.
When his career is over, it isn't a stretch to think he will have been the best offensive 2B in history. Oh well, doesn't matter now-- at least I hope not.
Here is the JAWS ( a HOF predictor) page for 2B, it is helpful to look at guys compared to others at their position.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_2B.shtml
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 16, 2018, 02:15:59 PM
I've never understood why Pudge didn't get lumped in with the rest of the obvious 'roid users. Those Rangers teams of the early 90s were basically one giant PED party.
And he tested positive if I remember correctly. I have no idea why he just skated in.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 15, 2018, 05:00:31 PM
Wait, what? According to Marquettefan94 the Brewers couldn't close a game out.
Still consumed, I see. Did you ever finish reading my post history?
Actually never said that at all. (another research project for you)
Countdown to your response....over/under = 6 minutes....
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on May 17, 2018, 12:50:37 PM
Still consumed, I see. Did you ever finish reading my post history?
Actually never said that at all. (another research project for you)
Countdown to your response....over/under = 6 minutes....
I don't think you've gotten a hot take right all year so far, so yes, "consumed."
Speaking of "consumed," you do love looking into time between responses. Pretty odd, but not surprising given the source.
Quote from: jsglow on May 16, 2018, 06:52:36 AM
What impresses me about the Crew this year is that at no point have they been running on more than about 5 out of 8 cylinders and yet they are still playing very good ball.
Pump the brakes a little bit. The Brewers are basically a .500 team according to their metrics (Pythag W-L: 23-21). They've played the 21st most-difficult schedule so far and they also aren't going to continuing winning 64% of their road games. They've been a fun, overachieving team so far but there's still a long way to go.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 17, 2018, 01:38:06 PM
Pump the brakes a little bit. The Brewers are basically a .500 team according to their metrics (Pythag W-L: 23-21). They've played the 21st most-difficult schedule so far and they also aren't going to continuing winning 64% of their road games. They've been a fun, overachieving team so far but there's still a long way to go.
I remember when you were saying this two weeks ago, citing that the Crew had an extremely easy April (which was true). They've since gone 9-5 in May and are 5-2 on their current road trip through the two best teams in the NL West. Obviously still a long ways to go, but 1/4 of the way through the season and the Brewers have 26 wins and are tied for 1st. And while they will cool off on the road, they will almost certainly heat up at home.
Baseball Prospectus has the Brewers with a 48% of making the playoffs, while FanGraphs has them at only 26%.
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/odds/ (https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/odds/)
https://www.fangraphs.com/standings/playoff-odds (https://www.fangraphs.com/standings/playoff-odds)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 17, 2018, 01:38:06 PM
Pump the brakes a little bit. The Brewers are basically a .500 team according to their metrics (Pythag W-L: 23-21). They've played the 21st most-difficult schedule so far and they also aren't going to continuing winning 64% of their road games. They've been a fun, overachieving team so far but there's still a long way to go.
I very much agree with this - its a weird time to be a Brewers fan. The Brewers have been a borderline contender for nearly a year and a half now, but they still don't feel
good. Chief culprit is a pitching staff that always feels held together with sticks and glue, yet has been the strength of the team over the past 200 games. Part of that, lead by the Hader, might be part of a more general, leaguewide decline of strong starting pitching that goes deep into games, replaced by extended and creative bullpen usage (Brewers 'pen has been the strength of the team over this run).
But looking at the farm after the Yelich trade, more than half of the top guys are already here, and there's no real power on the way. Burnes, Ortiz, Peralta and Houser could all contribute to bolster pitching, but with the exception of more table setting help from Hiura or stable OFs in Phillips or Ray, the lineup from within is what it is for this competitive window. My greater concern isn't whether they Brewers win the division this year, but whether there's enough talent left on the farm (or in the wallet) for this lineup to really instill consistent confidence. To win, the Brewers will almost certainly have to find success in going against the grain, and having high avg and obp guys like Cain, Yelich and maybe Arcia, Phillips, Hiura win in the face of the three true outcomes trend.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 17, 2018, 01:38:06 PM
Pump the brakes a little bit. The Brewers are basically a .500 team according to their metrics (Pythag W-L: 23-21). They've played the 21st most-difficult schedule so far and they also aren't going to continuing winning 64% of their road games. They've been a fun, overachieving team so far but there's still a long way to go.
You can cite all the advanced metrics you want. The fact is that they've played with multiple significant injuries to key position players and have literally lost half of their starting rotation. Yet somehow, they're in a virtual tie for first place. I personally believe they'll end up with more wins than last year. Will it be enough? Who knows. But they're absolutely not a .500 team at the 1/4 pole as you or some computer claims. They're also not 'overachieving'. They are almost certainly a better team than the one that won 86 games last year.
This is nuts.
https://es.pn/2wLjQbT
Quote from: ZaLiN on May 17, 2018, 10:18:13 PM
This is nuts.
https://es.pn/2wLjQbT
I'm just glad Trout doesn't play in NY or Boston, or we would see a dozen stories like this every day.
Despite the fact that he has "only" 2 MVPs thus far, he is clearly the best player in the world. He had his "worst" year last year (7.3 WAR), so it's not surprising to think that his career year will be the best ever.
Quote from: ZaLiN on May 17, 2018, 10:18:13 PM
This is nuts.
https://es.pn/2wLjQbT
Also nuts, Trout's most similar batters through age 26...
Frank Robinson
Ken Griffey
Mickey Mantle
Hank Aaron
Yep, he's pretty damn good.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 18, 2018, 08:21:43 AM
Also nuts, Trout's most similar batters through age 26...
Frank Robinson
Ken Griffey
Mickey Mantle
Hank Aaron
Are those guys good?
Being able to watch Trout play a couple times a week is worth the MLB.tv subscription.
Quote from: jsglow on May 17, 2018, 05:32:53 PM
You can cite all the advanced metrics you want. The fact is that they've played with multiple significant injuries to key position players and have literally lost half of their starting rotation. Yet somehow, they're in a virtual tie for first place. I personally believe they'll end up with more wins than last year. Will it be enough? Who knows. But they're absolutely not a .500 team at the 1/4 pole as you or some computer claims. They're also not 'overachieving'. They are almost certainly a better team than the one that won 86 games last year.
Right now the Brewers have the 7th best record in baseball. Do you think they're the 7th most talented team?
It depends on what standard you're looking at for the Crew overachieving. Fully healthy, I think they're close to this level. Maybe a game or two worse, given their luck (record in one-run games has been superb). There's due to be some regression there.
But given the injuries, they're definitely overachieving what they should be doing. Soft schedule helps, as does the bullpen being insanely good.
Quote from: MUBurrow on May 18, 2018, 10:12:43 AM
Right now the Brewers have the 7th best record in baseball. Do you think they're the 7th most talented team?
I texted Denny Green and he said "You are what your record says you are".
Bullpen is as good as any in MLB. OF WAR is better than every team except NYY, Angels, and Bosox. Excellent depth. 2B and Starting pitching are the biggest issues.
I don't know if they are the 7th most talented team, but I would say borderline top 10. And the manager is as good as they come.
Even with the great start, the Brewers would have to beat Arrieta in a one-game playoff if the season ended May 17.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdahKd0VwAEYZp5?format=jpg&name=small)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 18, 2018, 12:52:29 PM
Even with the great start, the Brewers would have to beat Arrieta in a one-game playoff if the season ended May 17.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdahKd0VwAEYZp5?format=jpg&name=small)
Can you imagine how how the takes on this board would be in that scenario?
Quote from: MUBurrow on May 18, 2018, 10:12:43 AM
Right now the Brewers have the 7th best record in baseball. Do you think they're the 7th most talented team?
I don't know. But over 162 I will.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 18, 2018, 12:52:29 PM
Even with the great start, the Brewers would have to beat Arrieta in a one-game playoff if the season ended May 17.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdahKd0VwAEYZp5?format=jpg&name=small)
Oh, not the Cubs? ;)
Quote from: Jockey on May 18, 2018, 12:34:12 PM
I texted Denny Green and he said "You are what your record says you are".
Bullpen is as good as any in MLB. OF WAR is better than every team except NYY, Angels, and Bosox. Excellent depth. 2B and Starting pitching are the biggest issues.
I don't know if they are the 7th most talented team, but I would say borderline top 10. And the manager is as good as they come.
Totally fair. Now perhaps 2B is better than we think it is with Villar and some combo of Perez, Saladino and Sogard. Plus a rotation that's Anderson, Davies, Chacin, a healthy Nelson (we can hope) and either Guerra or Miley is probably better than average. Throw in guys like Woodruff, Suter and maybe even Peralta and perhaps there's enough. A team like MKE can never buy pitching talent except on a 'rental'. To win long term, they have to 'home grow' it and I count Freddy as home grown because he was acquired so young. Now if this year's C.C. is out there for the second half? Maybe I'd bite. Two months to decide.
Quote from: jsglow on May 18, 2018, 01:03:18 PM
Oh, not the Cubs? ;)
In fairness, when the season ends, teams play the same amount of games. Both the Cubs and Brewers have 18 losses.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 18, 2018, 02:10:35 PM
In fairness, when the season ends, teams play the same amount of games. Both the Cubs and Brewers have 18 losses.
::)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 18, 2018, 02:10:35 PM
In fairness, when the season ends, teams play the same amount of games. Both the Cubs and Brewers have 18 losses.
And the Cubs have managed that in 4 less games than the Brewers!
Quote from: Jockey on May 18, 2018, 12:34:12 PM
I texted Denny Green and he said "You are what your record says you are".
1) RIP, Denny Green
2) That was a Bill Parcells quote. Denny's quote was "They are who we thought they were!" which is actually the opposite of Parcells' quote since Denny didn't think the Bears were actually as good as their record.
;)
It will be interesting to see if the Brewers offense is not very good, or just off to a cold start. It seems like Shaw and Santana are heating up. We are starting to get some production out of second base with Villar starting to hit better. Braun has been pretty brutal.
Right now we are putting a lot of stress on our pitching staff. If the offense heats up, they could be pretty dangerous. It will be interesting to see how the bullpen holds up during the second half. Stearns is basically using the full 40-man with a rotating bottom of the bullpen. Counsell is pretty quick to pull starters though.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 18, 2018, 12:52:29 PM
Even with the great start, the Brewers would have to beat Arrieta in a one-game playoff if the season ended May 17.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdahKd0VwAEYZp5?format=jpg&name=small)
Remember when people wanted Kapler fired 20 games into the season?
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 18, 2018, 09:15:32 AM
Are those guys good?
Being able to watch Trout play a couple times a week is worth the MLB.tv subscription.
He's absolutely incredible, especially considering he came up so young. But I say it every time it comes up...regardless of sport, is Mike Trout the most forgettable superstar of the modern era? At least the least marketable.
He's won 2 MVPs and a ROY, made the ASG every full year since he's been up, put up consistently absurd numbers, but he doesn't move the needle. Most casual sports fans probably wouldn't recognize him on the street, his endorsements are basically nil. Part of this is because the Angels have been trash, only making the playoffs once in his career and getting promptly swept, but also because he really has no personality and charisma off the field.
Again, it has no bearing on his achievements on the field, but given this age of exposure and marketing, its kind of remarkable.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 18, 2018, 03:48:45 PM
1) RIP, Denny Green
2) That was a Bill Parcells quote. Denny's quote was "They are who we thought they were!" which is actually the opposite of Parcells' quote since Denny didn't think the Bears were actually as good as their record.
;)
Not surprised I mixed up old coaches - dead or alive. :(
I'm not really up on these kind of things but how does what Cano took help someone? I take furosimide and all it does for me is make me pee 10 times a day.
Quote from: Skitch on May 19, 2018, 02:22:44 AM
I'm not really up on these kind of things but how does what Cano took help someone? I take furosimide and all it does for me is make me pee 10 times a day.
It's a masking agent.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 18, 2018, 05:07:32 PM
It will be interesting to see if the Brewers offense is not very good, or just off to a cold start. It seems like Shaw and Santana are heating up. We are starting to get some production out of second base with Villar starting to hit better. Braun has been pretty brutal.
Right now we are putting a lot of stress on our pitching staff. If the offense heats up, they could be pretty dangerous. It will be interesting to see how the bullpen holds up during the second half. Stearns is basically using the full 40-man with a rotating bottom of the bullpen. Counsell is pretty quick to pull starters though.
This mirrors my thoughts exactly. How good or bad IS the Brewers offense? They've definitely had slumps, but they're also not built like most other successful offenses that rely entirely on the HR, so maybe they feel worse than they really are? The strikeouts are still a concern, which is a big part of why dealing Santana makes sense. I'm afraid the real Arcia (with the bat) is no better than halfway between this year and last year - and even last year he struckout 100 times. This just sort of is what Braun is now. Kind of a late model Joe Mauer with a little more pop. That can be fine, but tough from a guy who only plays corner OF and 1B.
The Braun die was cast years ago. Let's hope he can get healthy and contribute because the buyout isn't until 2021. But the analysis I have seen indicates that he's actually been a 'good deal' from the club's perspective since it was signed in 2011.
Is Hader the leader in the NL Cy Young race this year?
Has a non-closer relief pitcher ever won the Cy Young Award?
Also, thank God Wilmer Flores started crying midgame. The Brewers could've ended up with Wilmer Flores and Zack Wheeler for Carlos Gomez. Instead they got Josh Hader, Domingo Santana, Brett Phillips and Adrian Houser for Gomez and Mike Fiers. That worked out well.
Jeffress only being able to pitch for the Brewers is nice too.
Quote from: Jockey on May 19, 2018, 09:23:43 PM
Is Hader the leader in the NL Cy Young race this year?
Hah. Didn't even see your post before I made mine. He won't even be in the running given that he is neither a closer nor starter in my opinion, but he certainly should be.
If there ever was such a thing as a bullpen ace, it's Josh Hader.
#DarthHader
Quote from: Jockey on May 19, 2018, 09:23:43 PM
Is Hader the leader in the NL Cy Young race this year?
Max Scherzer and DeGrom are the clear front runners.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 19, 2018, 09:29:48 PM
Also, thank God Wilmer Flores started crying midgame. The Brewers could've ended up with Wilmer Flores and Zack Wheeler for Carlos Gomez. Instead they got Josh Hader, Domingo Santana, Brett Phillips and Adrian Houser for Gomez and Mike Fiers. That worked out well.
Uffdah. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/07/carlos-gomez-astros-trade-fiers.html (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/07/carlos-gomez-astros-trade-fiers.html)
QuoteHe's the rare Scott Boras client that took an extension as opposed to waiting for free agency, and while he should still secure a $100MM+ contract with ease following the 2016 season, he's currently in the midst of a three-year, $24MM pact that has worked out beautifully for the Brewers.
:/
Quote from: Jockey on May 19, 2018, 09:23:43 PM
Is Hader the leader in the NL Cy Young race this year?
I was thinking the same thing last night. I'm assuming they still have the Rolaids relief man of year, yes?
Either way, the Crew's bullpen is simply dominant. If they can get Knebel back to form (and I think they will), it'll be absolutely lights out for any opponent that can't get out of the 5th with a lead. The amazing part is that it's not just one guy. Nobody's even talking about Jeffress and the dude's ERA is 0.36. He's been scored on once this entire year and now has 24 appearances.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 19, 2018, 09:29:48 PM
Has a non-closer relief pitcher ever won the Cy Young Award?
Also, thank God Wilmer Flores started crying midgame. The Brewers could've ended up with Wilmer Flores and Zack Wheeler for Carlos Gomez. Instead they got Josh Hader, Domingo Santana, Brett Phillips and Adrian Houser for Gomez and Mike Fiers. That worked out well.
Jeffress only being able to pitch for the Brewers is nice too.
Hardricourt wrote an article about that a couple weeks ago. Remind me. Was that a Doug Melvin trade or was Stearns already here? Melvin's late career moves need to be recognized.
Speaking a Jeffress. It's amazing to me how it has never worked for him at all away from the Crew but somehow his comfort level with exactly one club makes it work here. That may someday cost him a bit of money but to heck with that. I'm sure his message to his agent is 'We ain't going anywhere, I'm signing'.
Mite bee back on da peds in mke, hey?
Quote from: jsglow on May 20, 2018, 07:55:06 AM
Hardricourt wrote an article about that a couple weeks ago. Remind me. Was that a Doug Melvin trade or was Stearns already here? Melvin's late career moves need to be recognized.
Gomez was traded on July 30, 2015 and Melvin stepped down on August 11, 2015. You're right. Melvin's moves at the end are a very underrated part of the rebuild.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 20, 2018, 08:53:12 AM
Gomez was traded on July 30, 2015 and Melvin stepped down on August 11, 2015. You're right. Melvin's moves at the end are a very underrated part of the rebuild.
Thanks for looking it up. :)
Quote from: MUBurrow on May 18, 2018, 10:12:43 AM
Right now the Brewers have the 7th best record in baseball. Do you think they're the 7th most talented team?
It's fifth best record now, thank you very much.
The reason why it seems like the Brewers aren't that talented is because they don't have a big name superstar player. The four teams ahead of Milwaukee are the Yankees (Stanton, Judge), Boston (Sale, Betts), Houston (Altuve, Verlander), and Atlanta (Freeman, Albies, Acuna).
Who's the biggest name in Milwaukee? A washed-up Braun? A reliever (Hader)? The third best outfielder that the Marlins traded last winter (Yelich)? This Brewers team isn't winning with superstars, it's winning with depth. We've gone 7-2 on a tough road trip with our top four starters ALL on the DL (and Braun and Thames too).
It will be interesting to see if Slinging Stearns makes a deal for a superstar at the deadline. Lots of interesting names on bad teams right now. Can you imagine this team with Machado? Kershaw?
Quote from: SaveOD238 on May 20, 2018, 10:42:07 AM
It's fifth best record now, thank you very much.
The reason why it seems like the Brewers aren't that talented is because they don't have a big name superstar player. The four teams ahead of Milwaukee are the Yankees (Stanton, Judge), Boston (Sale, Betts), Houston (Altuve, Verlander), and Atlanta (Freeman, Albies, Acuna).
Who's the biggest name in Milwaukee? A washed-up Braun? A reliever (Hader)? The third best outfielder that the Marlins traded last winter (Yelich)? This Brewers team isn't winning with superstars, it's winning with depth. We've gone 7-2 on a tough road trip with our top four starters ALL on the DL (and Braun and Thames too).
It will be interesting to see if Slinging Stearns makes a deal for a superstar at the deadline. Lots of interesting names on bad teams right now. Can you imagine this team with Machado? Kershaw?
1) And because they're a small market team. I still don't think ESPN or MLB.com has ever acknowledged how good the Royals were for a few years.
2) I'm thinking he might because for the first time in memory the Crew has quality guys who are blocked. I'm not necessarily suggesting they trade Phillips or Broxton, for example, but those guys are legitimate ML players. I'm also guessing it might be before the all star game. June is an important month in that the Crew has a solid 2-3 week stretch against some quality teams.
Personally, I really believe this road trip that'll be completed today has been a key. Just 10 days ago some were wondering if this team could hit. Personally, I thought April had been something of an aberration.
Rays are about to start the same guy in consecutive games today. Yesterday, they started a reliever to face the top three guys in the line up before he yielded to the "starter." They are potentially going to employ the same strategy today.
https://deadspin.com/the-rays-are-making-history-with-strange-new-pitching-s-1826178026
That's really interesting. I don't think I've ever heard that done before.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on May 20, 2018, 10:42:07 AM
It's fifth best record now, thank you very much.
The reason why it seems like the Brewers aren't that talented is because they don't have a big name superstar player. The four teams ahead of Milwaukee are the Yankees (Stanton, Judge), Boston (Sale, Betts), Houston (Altuve, Verlander), and Atlanta (Freeman, Albies, Acuna).
Who's the biggest name in Milwaukee? A washed-up Braun? A reliever (Hader)? The third best outfielder that the Marlins traded last winter (Yelich)? This Brewers team isn't winning with superstars, it's winning with depth. We've gone 7-2 on a tough road trip with our top four starters ALL on the DL (and Braun and Thames too).
Are they that deep though? I would push back against the argument that the Brewers have more talent at the back of the order or on the bench vs the other teams you listed. The Brewers are 21st in runs scored and 18th in OPS. Despite the 5th best record in baseball, they only have the 12th best +/- (largely on the back of their pitching). Its not like they're getting unique production out of Arcia, Perez, Pina/Bandy at the back of the order. And I don't see a ton of reasons to think it gets dramatically better. The HRs and AVGs (just to keep my post shorter) at the quarter pole are - Cain .271/5, Yelich .299/5, Shaw .248/10, Braun .222/5, Arcia .208/2, Santana .257/2, Aguilar .327/6. Maybe you get a bit more out of Santana, Arcia, but Aguilar probably fades a bit and the rest of those numbers all project pretty close to preseason expectations.
Their pitching has carried them. They have the second most quality starts in baseball (who would've guessed) and their bullpen has the best ERA in baseball. That bullpen also has the 5th most inning pitched, though, which is a weird combo with the QS, and suggests starters are going exactly 6 IP a lot. But even with Nelson and Anderson back, are they going to get much better than getting a 61% QS percentage? Even with Knebel, is the bullpen going to pitch to a better ERA than 2.58?
I know it doesn't seem like it, but I really am a Brewers fan, and I think they'll be in the race all year. Counsell has done a great job team and he puts guys in position to succeed. But there isn't any obvious place for improvement here. The best that can be hoped for is that they stay healthy and keep up what they've been doing, and that the pitching doesn't regress.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 19, 2018, 09:29:48 PM
Has a non-closer relief pitcher ever won the Cy Young Award?
This makes me want to throw up. Hader has been unreal, but this guy, is putting up similar numbers and doing it in 6 (at least) inning shots. Relievers shouldn't win Cy Youngs, not when they pitch 1/3 ( heck, even 1/2) the innings of a guy putting up great numbers.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/scherma01.shtml
Quote from: jsglow on May 20, 2018, 10:56:23 AM
1) And because they're a small market team. I still don't think ESPN or MLB.com has ever acknowledged how good the Royals were for a few years.
Can't really speak to the ESPN portion, but the Royals got (and continue to get) a lot of love on MLB.com and MLB Network and MLB radio.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 20, 2018, 08:19:39 PM
This makes me want to throw up. Hader has been unreal, but this guy, is putting up similar numbers and doing it in 6 (at least) inning shots. Relievers shouldn't win Cy Youngs, not when they pitch 1/3 ( heck, even 1/2) the innings of a guy putting up great numbers.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/scherma01.shtml
Asking a question makes you want to throw up? Lol. Weak stomach?
Starters might pitch double the innings but they also might impact about 1/3 of the games a releiver might impact. Relievers in today's game are just as important as starters, if not more.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 08:50:59 PM
Asking a question makes you want to throw up? Lol. Weak stomach?
Starters might pitch double the innings but they also might impact about 1/3 of the games a releiver might impact. Relievers in today's game are just as important as starters, if not more.
Nope. Bullpens are no doubt important but the quality of a rotation is more valuable.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 08:50:59 PM
Asking a question makes you want to throw up? Lol. Weak stomach?
Starters might pitch double the innings but they also might impact about 1/3 of the games a releiver might impact. Relievers in today's game are just as important as starters, if not more.
Not that WAR is everything, but:
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2018&month=0&season1=2018&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0
and
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0
They aren't as valuable. I would think if the Brewers thought Hader's stuff would hold up over 6 IP he would be starting. Relievers are important, and have been getting more so each year, but relievers, even elite ones, are not as important as a front line starter. More than a mid-rotation guy? Sure, but not than an ace.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 08:50:59 PM
Asking a question makes you want to throw up? Lol. Weak stomach?
Starters might pitch double the innings but they also might impact about 1/3 of the games a releiver might impact. Relievers in today's game are just as important as starters, if not more.
Hahahahahahahaha.
Hahahaha.
Dude.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 08:50:59 PM
Asking a question makes you want to throw up? Lol. Weak stomach?
Starters might pitch double the innings but they also might impact about 1/3 of the games a releiver might impact. Relievers in today's game are just as important as starters, if not more.
Hahahahahahahaha.
Hahahaha.
That must be why you see all those relievers with +$100 million deals.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 20, 2018, 10:39:44 PM
Hahahahahahahaha.
Hahahaha.
That must be why you see all those relievers with +$100 million deals.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 20, 2018, 10:05:27 PM
Hahahahahahahaha.
Hahahaha.
Dude.
Wow. That is super cute.
Yu Darvish and his $100M contract and all his value to the Cubs. You're right. Only took him until the end of May to get his first win as a Cubbie.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 10:43:06 PM
Wow. That is super cute.
Yu Darvish and his $100M contract and all his value to the Cubs. You're right. Only took him until the end of May to get his first win as a Cubbie.
I love how you make this about the Cubs.
Listen Hader is a damn stud. I'd love to have him. But to say relievers are as important as starters is just wrong.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 20, 2018, 10:47:36 PM
I love how you make this about the Cubs.
Listen Hader is a damn stud. I'd love to have him. But to say relievers are as important as starters is just wrong.
I make it about whoever I want. Using player contracts to prove the value of a player to his team is hysterical.
If you're talking about baseball 5 years ago, sure. Fortunately for a lot of teams GMs aren't stuck in that line of thinking.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 10:50:02 PM
I make it about whoever I want. Using player contracts to prove the value of a player to his team is hysterical.
If you're talking about baseball 5 years ago, sure. Fortunately for a lot of teams GMs aren't stuck in that line of thinking.
Sure teams have created super bullpens the past few years, but that still doesn't mean the starters aren't more important.
Name the best reliever in the game. Anyone you want. I won't even argue with your choice.
I'll save you some time.
Good choice picking (Best Reliever)! He is awesome isn't he?
As good as (Best Reliever) has been this year, he's not more important than Scherzer, Cole, Severino, Verlander, Kluber, Sale, deGrom, ...
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 20, 2018, 11:11:28 PM
I'll save you some time.
Good choice picking (Best Reliever)! He is awesome isn't he?
As good as (Best Reliever) has been this year, he's not more important than Scherzer, Cole, Severino, Verlander, Kluber, Sale, deGrom, ...
So you found 2 in the NL that are arguably more important than Hader is? So then you agree with me that Hader should be on the short list for Cy Young so far? I guess you could've actually saved me time by simply saying that...
Lol.
IP matter. Kershaw threw 175 innings last season. He was better than Scherzer in most other categories. Scherzer won. There is alot of value in providing more innings for your team so that lesser guys don't have to soak them up.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 10:43:06 PM
Wow. That is super cute.
Yu Darvish and his $100M contract and all his value to the Cubs. You're right. Only took him until the end of May to get his first win as a Cubbie.
Never stop being you.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 21, 2018, 05:08:59 AM
Never stop being you.
Again, good post. Looking forward to TallTitan telling me the same!
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 21, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
IP matter. Kershaw threw 175 innings last season. He was better than Scherzer in most other categories. Scherzer won. There is alot of value in providing more innings for your team so that lesser guys don't have to soak them up.
Sure they matter. But they also mattered when guys like Eric Gagne won the Cy Young Award.
Like I said, Hader's neither a closer nor a starter so he won't be in the discussion. But if he continues to dominate like this all season Hader will have had way more of an impact on the Brewers' season than Gagne did on the Dodgers'.
Sometimes you guys argue about the dumbest stuff.
Anyway, despite yesterday's loss in very similar fashion to the one loss in Arizona, it was a really outstanding 10 game trip for the Crew. Honestly, they need to get things going a little better at home and tonight certainly won't be an easy lift.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 11:17:36 PM
So you found 2 in the NL that are arguably more important than Hader is? So then you agree with me that Hader should be on the short list for Cy Young so far? I guess you could've actually saved me time by simply saying that...
Lol.
Two? I named seven and could have kept going. Do you know what a ... means? I guess I'll keep going.
Kershaw, Cueto, Corbin, Williams, Martinez, Syndergaard, ...
Do you think Hader (who you say is the best reliever in baseball) is more important than any of these players? You would rather have Hader than any of these players on the Brewers?
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 06:27:42 AM
Again, good post. Looking forward to TallTitan telling me the same!
Please stop being you.
Quote from: JWags85 on May 18, 2018, 05:40:57 PM
He's won 2 MVPs and a ROY, made the ASG every full year since he's been up, put up consistently absurd numbers, but he doesn't move the needle. Most casual sports fans probably wouldn't recognize him on the street, his endorsements are basically nil. Part of this is because the Angels have been trash, only making the playoffs once in his career and getting promptly swept, but also because he really has no personality and charisma off the field.
I think it mostly because they haven't won. Nobody showed less personality than Derek Jeter, whose entire career was spent spouting standard baseball clichés (though he did date an impressive string of famous beauties), and wasn't near the player Trout is. But his teams were in the World Series every year when he first started out and in the playoffs almost every year of his career. Couple that with Trout playing most of his games after half the country is in bed, and you get a less well known guy.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 06:57:08 AM
Two? I named seven and could have kept going. Do you know what a ... means? I guess I'll keep going.
Kershaw, Cueto, Corbin, Williams, Martinez, Syndergaard, ...
Do you think Hader (who you say is the best reliever in baseball) is more important than any of these players? You would rather have Hader than any of these players on the Brewers?
All 7 of those guys were NL pitchers? Weird. Sorry could've sworn only 2 of them were, my bad!
http://www.espn.com/mlb/features/cyyoung
ESPN's Cy Young predictor has Josh Hader 5th in the NL at the moment. I'm sure Cubs fans don't consider 5th as "on the short list" but it certainly is. This really doesn't have to be as complicated as you guys want to make it.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 06:59:04 AM
Please stop being you.
Oh wow you came up with your own wicked burn. Sick!
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 07:10:17 AM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/features/cyyoung
ESPN's Cy Young predictor has Josh Hader 5th in the NL at the moment. I'm sure Cubs fans don't consider 5th as "on the short list" but it certainly is. This really doesn't have to be as complicated as you guys want to make it.
And Jeremy Jeffress is 6th.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 07:10:17 AM
All 7 of those guys were NL pitchers? Weird. Sorry could've sworn only 2 of them were, my bad!
http://www.espn.com/mlb/features/cyyoung
ESPN's Cy Young predictor has Josh Hader 5th in the NL at the moment. I'm sure Cubs fans don't consider 5th as "on the short list" but it certainly is. This really doesn't have to be as complicated as you guys want to make it.
Oh wow you came up with your own wicked burn. Sick!
Relievers are not more important than starters. You were wrong. Just stop.
In the regular season your best pitcher should be the one that throws the most innings. You want your best player to play as much as possible, kinda straightforward. However, in the post-season, if your best pitcher is a starter, then they are getting at most 2 starts in a 5 game series and 3 starts in a 7 games series. Total number of appearances is more important than starts. I would take a dominant reliever than can give 4 appearances and 2 ip per for a total of 8 innings over a starter who can get 2 starts and a total of 12 innings (assuming qs both times)(also assuming series goes 5 games). There's a reason that dominant starters often get put in the bullpen on short rest in the postseason. Short answer: Starters and ip are more important in the regular season, appearances are more important in the post season.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 21, 2018, 07:22:45 AM
Relievers are not more important than starters. You were wrong. Just stop.
Go check out who has the best bullpen ERAs and compare that to the MLB standings.
Or look at a team like the Brewers. Are the Brewers winning games because they're lighting up the scoreboard night in and night out? Nope. Are they winning games because Jhoulys Chacin, Brent Suter, Brandon Woodruff, Freddy Peralta, and Junior Garra are dominating opposing lineups? Nope. It's because they have the best bullpen in baseball and all you need is 4-5 innings of mediocre starting pitching and the bullpen will throw 4-5 innings of scoreless baseball from there on out.
5 years ago you're right. Relievers/bullpens were not as important as starters. Thankfully David Stearns understands where baseball has moved to.
Josh Hader, more important than Max, deGrom, Syndergaard, Nola, Corbin.... noted.
Jace Fry for AL Cy Young.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 08:41:22 AM
Go check out who has the best bullpen ERAs and compare that to the MLB standings.
Or look at a team like the Brewers. Are the Brewers winning games because they're lighting up the scoreboard night in and night out? Nope. Are they winning games because Jhoulys Chacin, Brent Suter, Brandon Woodruff, Freddy Peralta, and Junior Garra are dominating opposing lineups? Nope. It's because they have the best bullpen in baseball and all you need is 4-5 innings of mediocre starting pitching and the bullpen will throw 4-5 innings of scoreless baseball from there on out.
5 years ago you're right. Relievers/bullpens were not as important as starters. Thankfully David Stearns understands where baseball has moved to.
Who?
But really, no one is saying that relievers aren't important. Clearly they are. Mostly due to starters becoming less adept at going deep into games.
Your example of Gagne winning doesn't prove anything I said (and it is just my opinion, not any sweeping declaration) that relievers shouldn't win the Cy Young. They do. They have. I think it is ridiculous. This would be like giving a utility IF the award based on a great BA and OPS. Yeah the ratios are there, but he hasn't done as much work to earn it.
With utility players, like relievers this is ignoring that they are often times in games when the match-ups are more advantageous for them. It is ignoring the fact they don't have to work through the same level of fatigue. It is ignoring that if there is a day when they don't have their stuff, they won't have to try to face 25 batters anyways. It is ignoring that it is more difficult to get the same hitters out the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time you face a hitter than it is the first time. It is ignoring that starters have to face guys with strategies other than, use their best stuff every pitch. It is ignoring that starters will face a team's best hitters 3 or so times per game, where a reliever may never face them. It ignores that starters have to pitch in different situations that call for different approaches ( what I mean is that Hader for example has been in 2 games where his team was behind, and starters have to face being ahead, behind and tied.)
Relievers are important. And if you have a mediocre staff, they can even the playing field against teams that have better starters. But that doesn't make it them more valuable. Each time the manager goes to a different reliever it is a roll of the dice on whether or not that guy has it that day. It is better to have that ace type pitcher to get you into the 8th inning and not have to hope 4 different guys are on their stuff, because relievers, also tend to be more mercurial than starters for whatever reason.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2018, 08:18:09 AM
In the regular season your best pitcher should be the one that throws the most innings. You want your best player to play as much as possible, kinda straightforward. However, in the post-season, if your best pitcher is a starter, then they are getting at most 2 starts in a 5 game series and 3 starts in a 7 games series. Total number of appearances is more important than starts. I would take a dominant reliever than can give 4 appearances and 2 ip per for a total of 8 innings over a starter who can get 2 starts and a total of 12 innings (assuming qs both times)(also assuming series goes 5 games). There's a reason that dominant starters often get put in the bullpen on short rest in the postseason. Short answer: Starters and ip are more important in the regular season, appearances are more important in the post season.
No doubt the bullpen takes on a heightened importance in the postseason. You can certainly shorten the game with a dominant pen and they can pitch more often due to the scheduled off-days (See Brandon Morrow last year with LA).
However, saying you'd rather have a Josh Hader or an Andrew Miller in the postseason vs.a Justin Verlander. Sorry - but that's nuts.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 07:10:17 AM
ESPN's Cy Young predictor has Josh Hader 5th in the NL at the moment. I'm sure Cubs fans don't consider 5th as "on the short list" but it certainly is. This really doesn't have to be as complicated as you guys want to make it.
Dude, I'm not arguing about Hader being good or getting Cy Young votes. Yes, he's a beast. Yes, he will get some Cy Young votes if he keeps it up.
I am arguing your point that relievers are more important than starters.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 21, 2018, 09:37:42 AM
No doubt the bullpen takes on a heightened importance in the postseason. You can certainly shorten the game with a dominant pen and they can pitch more often due to the scheduled off-days (See Brandon Morrow last year with LA).
However, saying you'd rather have a Josh Hader or an Andrew Miller in the postseason vs.a Justin Verlander. Sorry - but that's nuts.
I did not name pitchers, so pulling those names out is somewhat unfair. I would rather take 8 innings of dominant pitching spread out over 4 games than 12 innings over two games. I think most managers would agree with that too, based on how frequently starters get moved to the pen on what would normally be a rest day in the postseason.
Think of it this way. In the postseason when every game is important, if you had 100 pitches of dominant baseball, would you put all 100 in one game and have a really high chance of winning that one game, or would you put 25 per game over four games and increase your chance of winning each game a smaller amount, but in multiple games. Justin Verlander doesn't do you any good in game 7 if he threw 100+ pitches in game 6. Josh Hader can throw 25+ pitches in both 6 and 7.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 08:41:22 AM
Go check out who has the best bullpen ERAs and compare that to the MLB standings.
Or look at a team like the Brewers. Are the Brewers winning games because they're lighting up the scoreboard night in and night out? Nope. Are they winning games because Jhoulys Chacin, Brent Suter, Brandon Woodruff, Freddy Peralta, and Junior Garra are dominating opposing lineups? Nope. It's because they have the best bullpen in baseball and all you need is 4-5 innings of mediocre starting pitching and the bullpen will throw 4-5 innings of scoreless baseball from there on out.
5 years ago you're right. Relievers/bullpens were not as important as starters. Thankfully David Stearns understands where baseball has moved to.
Again, no one is saying bullpens aren't important. They've certainly become more specialized and taken on more importance in recent years.
The bullpen is certainly contributing to Milwaukee's good start, considering their run differential is only +15. Currently, Milwaukee is also 2nd in the baseball in quality starts. Their starting rotation is 13th in ERA so not great but good enough to stay in and win close games with a dominant bullpen. When you look at rotation ERA, the top 13-14 are all currently playoff contenders. It doesn't work the same way for bullpens.
The Padres have thee 5th best bullpen ERA currently and the Blue Jays are 6th. Yet they are not contenders. Why? Their SP ERAs are 24th (Padres) and 26th (Jays) respectively.
Relievers and bullpens are important and valuable but not moreso than starting pitching.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2018, 10:07:10 AM
Think of it this way. In the postseason when every game is important, if you had 100 pitches of dominant baseball, would you put all 100 in one game and have a really high chance of winning that one game, or would you put 25 per game over four games and increase your chance of winning each game a smaller amount, but in multiple games. Justin Verlander doesn't do you any good in game 7 if he threw 100+ pitches in game 6. Josh Hader can throw 25+ pitches in both 6 and 7.
Those dominant pitches are not going to do you any good if you don't have the lead. Look at Yu Darvish's World Series performances last year. Perhaps that's an extreme but Jansen and Morrow don't do you any good when your team is put in a huge hole early in a game.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 09:51:47 AM
Dude, I'm not arguing about Hader being good or getting Cy Young votes. Yes, he's a beast. Yes, he will get some Cy Young votes if he keeps it up.
I am arguing your point that relievers are more important than starters.
Things aren't always black or white.
Hader is obviously more valuable than any Brewers starter.
Scherzer and deGrom (so far this year) are more valuable than any reliever.
But, quite simply, if the season ended
today, Hader would deserve the Cy Young because he would be the most valuable pitcher on a team that actually
makes the playoffs.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2018, 10:07:10 AM
Think of it this way. In the postseason when every game is important, if you had 100 pitches of dominant baseball, would you put all 100 in one game and have a really high chance of winning that one game, or would you put 25 per game over four games and increase your chance of winning each game a smaller amount, but in multiple games. Justin Verlander doesn't do you any good in game 7 if he threw 100+ pitches in game 6. Josh Hader can throw 25+ pitches in both 6 and 7.
Hmm. Well, there is this guy that sprang to mind...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=bumgama01&t=p&post=1
and of course this guy
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=buehrma01&t=p&post=1
And others as well. Now they are clearly the exception but still, they can do it. Best that you don't need to ask them, but there they are, I'm sure there are more, these 2 are just the two I thought of immediately.
Also looking at Hader's game log, he has only thrown back to back days one time (and threw only 12 pitches in the first) so far this year. And he is averaging over 2 days rest between appearances.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=haderjo01&t=p&year=2018
Not saying he couldn't do it, but so far the Brewers haven't really used him like that, and probably won't in the regular season, at least not until it is September. But assuming he can give you 25 pitches on back to back days isn't a given.
This post is mostly dealing in the absurd so probably best to ignore it actually.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 21, 2018, 10:17:45 AM
Again, no one is saying bullpens aren't important. They've certainly become more specialized and taken on more importance in recent years.
The bullpen is certainly contributing to Milwaukee's good start, considering their run differential is only +15. Currently, Milwaukee is also 2nd in the baseball in quality starts. Their starting rotation is 13th in ERA so not great but good enough to stay in and win close games with a dominant bullpen. When you look at rotation ERA, the top 13-14 are all currently playoff contenders. It doesn't work the same way for bullpens.
The Padres have thee 5th best bullpen ERA currently and the Blue Jays are 6th. Yet they are not contenders. Why? Their SP ERAs are 24th (Padres) and 26th (Jays) respectively.
Relievers and bullpens are important and valuable but not moreso than starting pitching.
VBMG, you are certainly correct in what you are saying here.
Bur keep in mind that Brewers' starters are not expected to ever pitch more than 6 innings. Counsel wants the starters to get 15-18 outs and doesn't expect more. Chacin is the only Brewers who is in the top 80 in innings pitched. That is why a staff of Chacin, Woodruff, Suter, Peralta, Guerra, etc. can be so successful.
With that same staff 10 years ago when starters were expected to go deep into games, the Brewers would be battling Cincinnati for last place.
Quote from: Jockey on May 21, 2018, 10:23:49 AM
Things aren't always black or white.
Hader is obviously more valuable than any Brewers starter.
Scherzer and deGrom (so far this year) are more valuable than any reliever.
But, quite simply, if the season ended today, Hader would deserve the Cy Young because he would be the most valuable pitcher on a team that actually makes the playoffs.
Even that is debatable.
Aaron Nola and Jake Arrieta for Philly, Sean Newcomb for Atl, and Patrick Corbin for Arizona could all make cases, as could Carlos Martinez and Bud Norris from STL, and Brandon Morrow for the Cubs.
Good thing the season still has months to go and this will likely work itself out. My money is on Scherzer or Clayton Kershaw.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 21, 2018, 10:23:31 AM
Those dominant pitches are not going to do you any good if you don't have the lead. Look at Yu Darvish's World Series performances last year. Perhaps that's an extreme but Jansen and Morrow don't do you any good when your team is put in a huge hole early in a game.
I looked at the entire World Series. Darvish gets the blame (and deservedly so) because he had a bad World Series. That being said, Darvish only pitched in 2 games, which means that there were 5 games that he had absolutely no influence over. Morrow appeared in every game of the World Series, and Jansen appeared in 5 of them which tells me that their influence in each game was less, especially when Darvish dug them into a hole, but they were able to effect every game of the World Series.
If you know that you get 9 innings of at bats and your opponent effectively only gets 7 because you have a reliever that is that good, being able to pitch them every game is more influential in a shorter series than having one dominant ace. Darvish could have gone 2-0 with a 0.00 ERA and the Dodgers could have still the series in 6 because there would have been 4 games that Darvish would have been useless.
Let's look at the playoff teams and their overall SP and RP ERA rankings from the last couple of years:
2017 Division Winners
Dodgers (1st/4th)
Indians (2nd/1st)
Nats (4th/23rd)
Astros (6th/17th)
Cubs (7th/6th)
Red Sox (8th/2nd)
Wildcards
DBacks (3rd/5th)
Yankees (5th/3rd)
Rockies (16th/20th)
Twins (19th/22nd)
2016
Division Winners
Cubs (1st/8th)
Nationals (2nd/2nd)
Dodgers (6th/1st)
Indians (7th/4th)
Red Sox (8th/9th)
Rangers (16th/25th)
Wildcards
Mets (3rd/6th)
Giants (5th/15th)
Blue Jays (4th/22nd)
Orioles (24th/3rd)
Of the 12 division winners, only one had a SP ERA that was not in the top 8 in baseball. Of the 20 playoff teams, 16 of them had SP ERAs in the top 8 in baseball.
Yes, 13 of the playoff teams also had top 10 bullpen ERAs as many of the staffs were just good from top to bottom. However, you're more likely to sneak into the playoffs with a mediocre to average bullpen than you are with a mediocre to average rotation. You're getting more high quality innings seeing the same hitters multiple times per game.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 21, 2018, 10:31:26 AM
Hmm. Well, there is this guy that sprang to mind...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=bumgama01&t=p&post=1
and of course this guy
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=buehrma01&t=p&post=1
And others as well. Now they are clearly the exception but still, they can do it. Best that you don't need to ask them, but there they are, I'm sure there are more, these 2 are just the two I thought of immediately.
Also looking at Hader's game log, he has only thrown back to back days one time (and threw only 12 pitches in the first) so far this year. And he is averaging over 2 days rest between appearances.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=haderjo01&t=p&year=2018
Not saying he couldn't do it, but so far the Brewers haven't really used him like that, and probably won't in the regular season, at least not until it is September. But assuming he can give you 25 pitches on back to back days isn't a given.
This post is mostly dealing in the absurd so probably best to ignore it actually.
It's pretty well known that doing that consistently will shorten a starters career by quite a few years. Kershaw pitched in game 7 last year on short rest, CC did it for the Brewers. Pitchers will take that risk in October, they won't take the same risk in any other situation.
And I'm pretty happy that Hader hasn't had to pitch back to back too often this early in the season, but I'd be willing to bet that he could go 4 games out of 5 in a series in October if he was asked to do so.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2018, 10:41:30 AM
Darvish could have gone 2-0 with a 0.00 ERA and the Dodgers could have still the series in 6 because there would have been 4 games that Darvish would have been useless.
Huh? Are you saying they would have lost if they only had 1 pitcher to use? I don't quite get what you are trying to say here.
Quote from: Jockey on May 21, 2018, 10:35:17 AM
VBMG, you are certainly correct in what you are saying here.
Bur keep in mind that Brewers' starters are not expected to ever pitch more than 6 innings. Counsel wants the starters to get 15-18 outs and doesn't expect more. Chacin is the only Brewers who is in the top 80 in innings pitched. That is why a staff of Chacin, Woodruff, Suter, Peralta, Guerra, etc. can be so successful.
With that same staff 10 years ago when starters were expected to go deep into games, the Brewers would be battling Cincinnati for last place.
I don't disagree with any of this. There are multiple ways to win games and the Brewers are taking the route that is most effective for them. Try to get the starter through 5-6 IP, only facing a lineup twice, and then turn it over to what has been a dominant bullpen.
I'm of the mind that is not going to be sustainable for a 162 game season if you don't get a little more length from the rotation. The bullpen is going to wear down and become less effective. I certainly saw that happen with the Cubs last year and I have the same concern for the Cubs so far this year with how much they've had to use their pen.
Again, I'm not arguing against the importance of a good bullpen. I just believe the good starting pitching is more valuable because you'll win more games and keep the bullpen more rested. Look at the Cubs rotation in 2016 or the Astros so far this year.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 21, 2018, 10:50:56 AM
Huh? Are you saying they would have lost if they only had 1 pitcher to use? I don't quite get what you are trying to say here.
I'm saying in a 5 game series, the best starter in the world in going to get at the most 2 starts. The best reliever could be getting 4 appearances. The reliever would be getting fewer innings, but could have a bigger influence on the series because they get more appearances, and likely more late game appearances when giving up a key hit or run is more likely to influence the result of the game.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2018, 10:58:42 AM
I'm saying in a 5 game series, the best starter in the world in going to get at the most 2 starts. The best reliever could be getting 4 appearances. The reliever would be getting fewer innings, but could have a bigger influence on the series because they get more appearances, and likely more late game appearances when giving up a key hit or run is more likely to influence the result of the game.
So would you trade Hader for a top notch starting pitcher?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 11:00:21 AM
So would you trade Hader for a top notch starting pitcher?
Considering my argument has only been about the post season, and I think the Brewers will struggle to get there, yes.
Look at my first post today, I said that starting pitching is more important than relief pitching for the regular season. I don't think the Brewers are a good enough all around team to win it all regardless. They could make the playoffs, which is a step in the right direction, so getting an ace, which is more important in the regular season, is more important than having one of the best relievers in the game right now.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/8f/98/068f9844f02a0ec12b51272108081d9b.jpg)
Can we wait until all the drug tests are in before we assign the Cy Young winner?
With more days off during the playoffs, managers can get much more aggressive with their bullpen use and give the starters a quick hook.
It's also pretty obvious bullpen usage is greater now than it used to be....clearly proven a starter's production goes down the third or fourth time through a lineup....why wait for it happen?
The playoffs are played/pitched differently, there's no way to deny that....but without 2-3 ace-like starters, the likelihood a team's bullpen getting too much work in the regular season is pretty strong...even worse if the bullpen is below average. You can camouflage a mediocre bullpen and get to the playoffs, but it'll likely catch up to you....2017 Cubs.
Hader is not winning the Cy Young any time soon but he's been a stud.
While we are handing out awards here in May, don't forget to hand out that National League Most Valuable Player!
Defense is more important than offense. If the season ended today Kyle Schwarber would be the best defender on a playoff team.
(http://www.bleachernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-16-at-2.38.35-PM.png)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
While we are handing out awards here in May, don't forget to hand out that National League Most Valuable Player!
Defense is more important than offense. If the season ended today Kyle Schwarber would be the best defender on a playoff team.
(http://www.bleachernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-16-at-2.38.35-PM.png)
This hot take is almost as bad as starters more valuable than relievers.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 21, 2018, 10:55:41 AM
I don't disagree with any of this. There are multiple ways to win games and the Brewers are taking the route that is most effective for them. Try to get the starter through 5-6 IP, only facing a lineup twice, and then turn it over to what has been a dominant bullpen.
I'm of the mind that is not going to be sustainable for a 162 game season if you don't get a little more length from the rotation. The bullpen is going to wear down and become less effective. I certainly saw that happen with the Cubs last year and I have the same concern for the Cubs so far this year with how much they've had to use their pen.
Again, I'm not arguing against the importance of a good bullpen. I just believe the good starting pitching is more valuable because you'll win more games and keep the bullpen more rested. Look at the Cubs rotation in 2016 or the Astros so far this year.
Thanks for your take, VBMG. I think we are probably 80% or more in agreement.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
While we are handing out awards here in May, don't forget to hand out that National League Most Valuable Player!
Defense is more important than offense. If the season ended today Kyle Schwarber would be the best defender on a playoff team.
If you believe your statement, you should stick to posting about basketball or beer.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 21, 2018, 11:10:47 AM
Considering my argument has only been about the post season, and I think the Brewers will struggle to get there, yes.
Look at my first post today, I said that starting pitching is more important than relief pitching for the regular season. I don't think the Brewers are a good enough all around team to win it all regardless. They could make the playoffs, which is a step in the right direction, so getting an ace, which is more important in the regular season, is more important than having one of the best relievers in the game right now.
If you are going to win in the postseason, you pretty much need both. The Royals were probably the most bullpen focused WS winner I can remember, and they rode a dominant start from Cueto and 2 really good starts from Volquez.
Quote from: Jockey on May 21, 2018, 01:57:51 PM
If you believe your statement, you should stick to posting about basketball or beer.
Or being a mascot.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 21, 2018, 01:37:44 PM
This hot take is almost as bad as starters more valuable than relievers.
Starters more valuable than relievers is a hot take hey? Interesting.
If I had to rank the importance of positions on a pitching staff I would go:
1) Ace
2) Number 2 starter
3) Closer
4)Number 3 starter
5)8th inning guy
6) 7th inning guy
7)4th starter
8)5th starter
That's my quick assessment, these could also be log rolled a bit depending on what your team has and can accomplish (and I think I could be swayed on a couple spots). If you can't get the number 3 starter, you can make up for it in the bullpen. If your bullpen is shallower but have great starters, you can cover that weakness up a bit.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 21, 2018, 09:34:33 AM
Who?
But really, no one is saying that relievers aren't important. Clearly they are. Mostly due to starters becoming less adept at going deep into games.
Your example of Gagne winning doesn't prove anything I said (and it is just my opinion, not any sweeping declaration) that relievers shouldn't win the Cy Young. They do. They have. I think it is ridiculous. This would be like giving a utility IF the award based on a great BA and OPS. Yeah the ratios are there, but he hasn't done as much work to earn it.
With utility players, like relievers this is ignoring that they are often times in games when the match-ups are more advantageous for them. It is ignoring the fact they don't have to work through the same level of fatigue. It is ignoring that if there is a day when they don't have their stuff, they won't have to try to face 25 batters anyways. It is ignoring that it is more difficult to get the same hitters out the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time you face a hitter than it is the first time. It is ignoring that starters have to face guys with strategies other than, use their best stuff every pitch. It is ignoring that starters will face a team's best hitters 3 or so times per game, where a reliever may never face them. It ignores that starters have to pitch in different situations that call for different approaches ( what I mean is that Hader for example has been in 2 games where his team was behind, and starters have to face being ahead, behind and tied.)
Relievers are important. And if you have a mediocre staff, they can even the playing field against teams that have better starters. But that doesn't make it them more valuable. Each time the manager goes to a different reliever it is a roll of the dice on whether or not that guy has it that day. It is better to have that ace type pitcher to get you into the 8th inning and not have to hope 4 different guys are on their stuff, because relievers, also tend to be more mercurial than starters for whatever reason.
But with how the Brewers are utilizing Hader he doesn't really only face batters he has an "advantage" on. He's facing a team's full lineup. And sure he might not see the lineup twice in a game, but he is certainly seeing the lineup twice in two days in some cases. And sometimes he's throwing multiple innings multiple days in a row, so I would guess (though I'm not him so I certainly don't know for sure) that he absolutely faces fatigue. And Hader is almost always coming in either to face the oppositions best 3 hitters or in a high leverage situations, and oftentimes both.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 21, 2018, 02:32:01 PM
If I had to rank the importance of positions on a pitching staff I would go:
1) Ace
2) Number 2 starter
3) Closer
4)Number 3 starter
5)8th inning guy
6) 7th inning guy
7)4th starter
8)5th starter
That's my quick assessment, these could also be log rolled a bit depending on what your team has and can accomplish (and I think I could be swayed on a couple spots). If you can't get the number 3 starter, you can make up for it in the bullpen. If your bullpen is shallower but have great starters, you can cover that weakness up a bit.
What would you consider Hader? He's not a closer, though at times he closes games. He's not an 8th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 8th inning. He's not a 7th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 7th inning. And some games he's all 3 of those things combined.
To me, Hader is far and away the most important pitcher the Brewers have, and unquestionably more important than Corey Knebel, an All Star closer. The Brewers were able to withstand a month without Knebel. I'm not sure they could do that without Hader, and if they did it would take totally reassigning rolls in the bullpen and relying more on starting pitching.
I think the value of a closer has always been overrated. Important? Yes. But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers. Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 02:53:34 PM
But with how the Brewers are utilizing Hader he doesn't really only face batters he has an "advantage" on. He's facing a team's full lineup. And sure he might not see the lineup twice in a game, but he is certainly seeing the lineup twice in two days in some cases. And sometimes he's throwing multiple innings multiple days in a row, so I would guess (though I'm not him so I certainly don't know for sure) that he absolutely faces fatigue. And Hader is almost always coming in either to face the oppositions best 3 hitters or in a high leverage situations, and oftentimes both.
No he isn't. He has seen 9 batters 1 time. So normally he is facing just under 6 hitters per appearance. That is a section of the lineup, not the entire lineup. A starter faces the entire lineup.
As for the fatigue, he averages 27 pitches per appearance. Throwing 54 pitches in 3 days isn't close the the fatigue of throwing 100 in 3 hours. To make that case seems preposterous.
And he really hasn't faced many guys multiple times. There are only 9 of (95) that Hader has faced twice all season, and he hasn't faced a single guy 3 times. And each time he faces them, his stuff is fresher. It may be his 12th pitch one time and his 30th the next, but his stuff likely doesn't drop off like a guy who faces a guy with his 12th pitch, then his 47th then his 88th.
http://m.mlb.com/player/623352/josh-hader?year=2018&stats=bvp-r-pitching-mlb
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 02:53:34 PM
What would you consider Hader? He's not a closer, though at times he closes games. He's not an 8th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 8th inning. He's not a 7th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 7th inning. And some games he's all 3 of those things combined.
To me, Hader is far and away the most important pitcher the Brewers have, and unquestionably more important than Corey Knebel, an All Star closer. The Brewers were able to withstand a month without Knebel. I'm not sure they could do that without Hader, and if they did it would take totally reassigning rolls in the bullpen and relying more on starting pitching.
I think the value of a closer has always been overrated. Important? Yes. But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers. Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.
I was speaking more in general terms of assembling a pitching staff, not specifically the Brewers. As for Hader, I would consider him somewhere between closer and 8th inning guy. I think the only real comparison for him right now is Andrew Miller. It seems like the Brewers are patterning his usage in Miller's mold. He is has been a unique animal this year, and I don't doubt he has been the Brewers most valuable pitcher. Their best starters are on the DL, which helps open the door, but also he has been completely dominant. Not saying he hasn't, that would be stupid.
But even a top end dominating late inning reliever, in my opinion, cannot match the value of a top end starting pitcher. The Brewers lack that top end SP, the NL, does not. Because of that I don't think Hader should win the Cy Young.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 02:53:34 PM
I think the value of a closer has always been overrated. Important? Yes. But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers. Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.
I know he was old with the Brewers, but do you want to rethink putting him in with the others?
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 21, 2018, 03:27:27 PM
I know he was old with the Brewers, but do you want to rethink putting him in with the others?
I don't. He was 40 years old with a 3.77 ERA in his last year with the Padres and then came to the Brewers as a 41 year old and had a 1.83 ERA before posting an ERA of close to 6 the next season.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 21, 2018, 02:32:01 PM
If I had to rank the importance of positions on a pitching staff I would go:
1) Ace
2) Number 2 starter
3) Closer
4)Number 3 starter
5)8th inning guy
6) 7th inning guy
7)4th starter
8)5th starter
That's my quick assessment, these could also be log rolled a bit depending on what your team has and can accomplish (and I think I could be swayed on a couple spots). If you can't get the number 3 starter, you can make up for it in the bullpen. If your bullpen is shallower but have great starters, you can cover that weakness up a bit.
That's a good list.
You aren't the only one thinking this way Wades...unless this is you.
https://www.mlb.com/news/josh-hader-making-case-for-mlbs-top-awards/c-277537948
Quote from: Jockey on May 21, 2018, 01:57:51 PM
If you believe your statement, you should stick to posting about basketball or beer.
Perhaps I should have used teal.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 20, 2018, 08:50:59 PM
Relievers in today's game are just as important as starters, if not more.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 02:53:34 PM
The Brewers were able to withstand a month without Knebel. I'm not sure they could do that without Hader, and if they did it would take totally reassigning rolls in the bullpen and relying more on starting pitching.
I think the value of a closer has always been overrated. Important? Yes. But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers. Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.
Pick a lane buddy.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 05:35:01 PM
Pick a lane buddy.
Relievers are only closers now? Once again, just like when you listed 7 pitchers that were all from the NL, despite 5 playing for the Astros (x2), Yankees, Indians, and Red Sox, I'm sorry that I'm confused that all relievers are closers...
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 21, 2018, 05:12:02 PM
Perhaps I should have used teal.
Mea cupla.
I get annoyed when my snarky comments aren't taken as such. I should have known better.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 05:41:23 PM
Relievers are only closers now?
So in your opinion "relievers are just as important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are just as important as starters?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2018, 07:29:29 PM
So in your opinion "relievers are more important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are more important than starters?
1. LOOGY
2. Setup man
3. Bullpen catcher
4. Long relief
5. Setup to the setup man
6. Closer
7. Short relief
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 21, 2018, 07:38:17 PM
1. LOOGY
2. Setup man
3. Bullpen catcher
4. Long relief
5. Setup to the setup man
6. Closer
7. Short relief
Well done.
Huge weekend for the Dodgers by the way. Maybe Turner returning has helped them right the ship, maybe.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2018, 07:29:29 PM
So in your opinion "relievers are just as important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are just as important as starters?
I think the idea of locking a guy into pitching only he 9th inning is completely overrated and that has been the movement over the last 3 years. People here make it very hard to believe they actually follow baseball.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2018, 07:29:29 PM
So in your opinion "relievers are just as important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are just as important as starters?
I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated. That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.
Quote from: #bansultan on May 21, 2018, 08:12:21 PM
I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated. That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.
Right. Not the actual pitchers who are closers. The position of locking your best reliever into a single inning at the end of the game is stupid and outdated and anybody who hasn't realized that is stuck in old thinking. Give me my best reliever up 1 with a guy at 2nd and no outs in the 6th or 7th over saving him until the 9th when you may be losing by 3 or winning by 6 at that point.
Quote from: #bansultan on May 21, 2018, 08:12:21 PM
I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated. That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.
It is overrated from a fans perspective. However, outside of the playoffs, what teams last season successfully deployed their best reliever in high leverage situations only?
I can think of two, which could be debated who the best reliever was.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 05:41:23 PM
Relievers are only closers now? Once again, just like when you listed 7 pitchers that were all from the NL, despite 5 playing for the Astros (x2), Yankees, Indians, and Red Sox, I'm sorry that I'm confused that all relievers are closers...
Again, I don't care about your Hader as NL Cy Young arguement.
I was simply naming starting pitchers (no matter the league) that are more important than the best reliever in baseball.
Quote from: #bansultan on May 21, 2018, 08:12:21 PM
I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated. That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.
I'm familiar with the Brian Kenny school on this. He's an interesting out of the box guy with whom I sometimes agree. But on this issue, the old thinking that Wades decries (that the last 3 outs are the most difficult to get and you save your best for that) still prevails among the vast majority of teams.
As for his assertion that relief pitchers are as important as starters - that's absurd. A good starter gives you 200+ innings, relievers 60-80. Does he think that guys who get 200 ABs are as important as starter who get 600?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2018, 09:45:04 PM
I'm familiar with the Brian Kenny school on this. He's an interesting out of the box guy with whom I sometimes agree. But on this issue, the old thinking that Wades decries (that the last 3 outs are the most difficult to get and you save your best for that) still prevails among the vast majority of teams.
As for his assertion that relief pitchers are as important as starters - that's absurd. A good starter gives you 200+ innings, relievers 60-80. Does he think that guys who get 200 ABs are as important as starter who get 600?
I really don't have an opinion on either of these. Just attempting to clarify what he meant.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2018, 09:45:04 PM
As for his assertion that relief pitchers are as important as starters - that's absurd. A good starter gives you 200+ innings, relievers 60-80. Does he think that guys who get 200 ABs are as important as starter who get 600?
That's old thinking as the game has changed. Only 12 teams had a starter who went 200+ innings last year - none over 215. It will likely be less than that this year.
We are nearing the time that few if any pitchers will throw 200 IP.
Quote from: Jockey on May 21, 2018, 10:29:41 PM
That's old thinking as the game has changed. Only 12 teams had a starter who went 200+ innings last year - none over 215. It will likely be less than that this year.
We are nearing the time that few if any pitchers will throw 200 IP.
Right. I'm starting to think some people in this thread haven't followed baseball for 3+ years.
Quote from: Jockey on May 21, 2018, 10:29:41 PM
That's old thinking as the game has changed. Only 12 teams had a starter who went 200+ innings last year - none over 215. It will likely be less than that this year.
We are nearing the time that few if any pitchers will throw 200 IP.
When people talk about the records that will never be broken, they talk about Bonds' 73 HR or Joe D's 56-game streak ... but the ones that
really will NEVER, EVER, EVER be broken are all of the old pitching records.
When you want a good laugh some time, check out some of Cy Young's numbers. Or if you don't want to go back to that era, even Nolan Ryan's numbers.
For some crazy reason, I'm thinking that Jack Chesbro's modern-era record of 48 complete games in one season is not gonna be broken. I know, I'm so negative!
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 10:51:08 PM
Right. I'm starting to think some people in this thread haven't followed baseball for 3+ years.
I'm not sure you've ever paid attention.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 21, 2018, 10:58:44 PM
I'm not sure you've ever paid attention.
Coming from the source it did, that's a big time compliment. Thanks.
I'm guessing all these Scoop experts think no batter should ever come anywhere close to 200 strikeouts in a season, batting average is super important, midrange jumpers in basketball is a skill that every player needs, running backs are the most important players in the NFL, etc.
Sports evolve. Scoopers apparently don't.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 11:00:28 PM
Coming from the source it did, that's a big time compliment. Thanks.
Bullpens and relief pitchers are not as or more valuable they starters. It's ludicrous.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 11:03:46 PM
I'm guessing all these Scoop experts think no batter should ever come anywhere close to 200 strikeouts in a season, batting average is super important, midrange jumpers in basketball is a skill that every player needs, running backs are the most important players in the NFL, etc.
Sports evolve. Scoopers apparently don't.
Where's the data on your RP argument? I posted some earlier from the past couple of years that you conveniently ignored.
Please share some data - I think most of us here are open to be convinced. We'll be waiting.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 21, 2018, 11:10:16 PM
Where's the data on your RP argument? I posted some earlier from the past couple of years that you conveniently ignored.
Please share some data - I think most of us here are open to be convinced. We'll be waiting.
I'm glad you're waiting. Go read up on what the Diamondbacks have done with their bullpen and their approach. Google is your friend. These things aren't hard to find at all. Some articles even mention the amount of money relievers are starting to command, since apparently that is how at least one Cubbies fan determines the importance of a player to his team. 😂
https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-bullpens-took-over-modern-baseball/amp/
An article from 4 years ago, and the trend has only gained momentum since then. "As recently as 1988, the OPS+ allowed by starters and relievers was almost equal; now, relief pitchers are consistently hurling much sharper innings than starters. It's a change that also goes hand in hand with the aforementioned increase in relievers deployed per game. Managers have gotten wise to the fact that more innings should go to the more effective subgroup of pitchers, and that they're even more effective when called upon in waves to throw aspirin pills past helpless batters."
Going further into the "spending money = more importance for a team," 7 teams are spending more money on their bullpen than they are on their starters. Want to make a bet on whether that number increases or decreases over the next 2 or 3 seasons?
Quote from: MU82 on May 21, 2018, 10:54:31 PM
When you want a good laugh some time, check out some of Cy Young's numbers.
The mind boggles at the thought of 511 wins. What would a guy be worth that could get you 25 wins per year for 20 consecutive years (with a few thrown in to spare)? Or, if 25/year is too much, you'd have to settle for 20 per year for 25 years. But it's not all seashells and balloons...he's going to have 13-15 losses per year, too. And, 749 complete games in 815 starts? Are you kidding me?
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 11:24:13 PM
I'm glad you're waiting. Go read up on what the Diamondbacks have done with their bullpen and their approach. Google is your friend. These things aren't hard to find at all. Some articles even mention the amount of money relievers are starting to command, since apparently that is how at least one Cubbies fan determines the importance of a player to his team. 😂
You made a claim. The burden of proof to back it up is on you, genius. That's how it works. Unreal.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 11:39:52 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-bullpens-took-over-modern-baseball/amp/
An article from 4 years ago, and the trend has only gained momentum since then. "As recently as 1988, the OPS+ allowed by starters and relievers was almost equal; now, relief pitchers are consistently hurling much sharper innings than starters. It's a change that also goes hand in hand with the aforementioned increase in relievers deployed per game. Managers have gotten wise to the fact that more innings should go to the more effective subgroup of pitchers, and that they're even more effective when called upon in waves to throw aspirin pills past helpless batters."
Going further into the "spending money = more importance for a team," 7 teams are spending more money on their bullpen than they are on their starters. Want to make a bet on whether that number increases or decreases over the next 2 or 3 seasons?
That article does not prove a single thing about relief pitchers being more valuable than starters. I've already said that bullpen's have become more important and are being used more. BC has already covered why the innings pitched by high-leverage relievers are so effective.
Try again.
Wadesworld, would you trade Hader for a top notch starter? You still haven't answered this.
Nah, hey?
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 11:03:46 PM
I'm guessing all these Scoop experts think no batter should ever come anywhere close to 200 strikeouts in a season, batting average is super important, midrange jumpers in basketball is a skill that every player needs, running backs are the most important players in the NFL, etc.
Sports evolve. Scoopers apparently don't.
You haven't exactly been the model of credibility in this thread.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 08:58:51 AM
You haven't exactly been the model of credibility in this thread.
To his credit, he was saying those things aren't true, which they're not. Although there are certainly arguments to be made against K'ing 200 times per season.
Maybe it's too soon to know yet, but I wonder what how oft-used relievers' arms are going to be affected by this trend.
We already know that pitches thrown, days of rest and innings pitched are being monitored closely for starters, who are being coddled more and more as the years go on. If a starter can give a team 5 decent innings, they are deemed successful.
But I do wonder about these relievers who are being used in 70, 80, 90 games, sometimes throwing more than 1 inning in the games. They warm up in the bullpen, sometimes more than once in a game; they are brought into highly stressful situations; they pitch to multiple batters and occasionally work multiple innings.
Is it only a matter of time before the Andrew Millers (and cheap imitations) start to break down? Or do they already have a lot of research to know that pitching 4 consecutive days in stressful situations is not as "bad" as throwing 120 pitches in 2 consecutive starts?
Quote from: MU82 on May 22, 2018, 09:31:38 AM
Maybe it's too soon to know yet, but I wonder what how oft-used relievers' arms are going to be affected by this trend.
We already know that pitches thrown, days of rest and innings pitched are being monitored closely for starters, who are being coddled more and more as the years go on. If a starter can give a team 5 decent innings, they are deemed successful.
But I do wonder about these relievers who are being used in 70, 80, 90 games, sometimes throwing more than 1 inning in the games. They warm up in the bullpen, sometimes more than once in a game; they are brought into highly stressful situations; they pitch to multiple batters and occasionally work multiple innings.
Is it only a matter of time before the Andrew Millers (and cheap imitations) start to break down? Or do they already have a lot of research to know that pitching 4 consecutive days in stressful situations is not as "bad" as throwing 120 pitches in 2 consecutive starts?
It absolutely has in impact and there is so much volatility in bullpens and relief pitchers as it is. Starters going 6+ regularly and keeping a pen fresh and healthy is a big deal.
Granted, this is just one example out of money but the Cubs had some health and effectiveness issues in their rotation last year. Hendricks missed time, Lackey was bad, they rolled out pure garbage from what was the #5 spot until they traded for Quintana. With basically the same personnel their bullpen hit the toilet the last two months of the season.
March/April: 2.87 ERA/ 78.1 IP
May: 3.49 ERA/108.1 IP
June: 3.55 ERA/88.2 IP
July: 3.36 ERA/85.2 IP
August: 4.96 ERA/90.2 IP
Sept/Oct: 4.36 ERA/107.1 IP
Again, this is obviously a small sample size of one team in one season but I'd be surprised it it was uncommon.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 22, 2018, 09:51:05 AM
It absolutely has in impact and there is so much volatility in bullpens and relief pitchers as it is. Starters going 6+ regularly and keeping a pen fresh and healthy is a big deal.
Granted, this is just one example out of money but the Cubs had some health and effectiveness issues in their rotation last year. Hendricks missed time, Lackey was bad, they rolled out pure garbage from what was the #5 spot until they traded for Quintana. With basically the same personnel their bullpen hit the toilet the last two months of the season.
March/April: 2.87 ERA/ 78.1 IP
May: 3.49 ERA/108.1 IP
June: 3.55 ERA/88.2 IP
July: 3.36 ERA/85.2 IP
August: 4.96 ERA/90.2 IP
Sept/Oct: 4.36 ERA/107.1 IP
Again, this is obviously a small sample size of one team in one season but I'd be surprised it it was uncommon.
Interesting stats, VBMG. Thanks.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 21, 2018, 11:24:13 PM
Go read up on what the Diamondbacks have done with their bullpen and their approach.
If starters were as important as relievers, they would get carts, too. Checkmate.
Quote from: drewm88 on May 22, 2018, 10:06:50 AM
If starters were as important as relievers, they would get carts, too. Checkmate.
This is better than any evidence wadesworld has presented so far.
Could it be as simple as...
A good bullpen is just as important as a good starting rotation, BUT...
Good relievers are more replaceable than good starting pitchers.
Quote from: #bansultan on May 22, 2018, 10:28:01 AM
Could it be as simple as...
A good bullpen is just as important as a good starting rotation, BUT...
Good relievers are more replaceable than good starting pitchers.
Woah. Its almost like constructing a pitching staff is about getting as many high quality innings as you can, while balancing a limited number of roster spots and diminishing returns due to fatigue.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 22, 2018, 08:47:08 AM
Wadesworld, would you trade Hader for a top notch starter? You still haven't answered this.
It depends on who the "top notch starter" is, but for the most part no.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 22, 2018, 10:16:24 AM
This is better than any evidence wadesworld has presented so far.
Please, tell me more about how player salaries prove how important that player is to a team...
If MLB cared about the health of its pitchers, it would expand rosters to 26 or 27 (or more) ... but that would make for higher payrolls without a salary cap, so it ain't happening!
I always felt a good bullpen was like a crapshoot. Good one year and then scouted the next. Many relievers, especially middle and set-up, are one pitch ponies. I remember Carlos Marmol was unhittable one year and unpitchable the next. Batters learned just to take his pitches and wait for him to mentally self-destruct.
Many great closers, on the other hand, had a variety of pitches (Rivera), many were ex-starters (Eckersley, Gossage). So, I think the advancement is to use these guys today selectively and situationally to save a starter when his efficacy drops in-game, versus fillers between a starter pushed as far as he could go without getting into too much trouble before you bring the closer in.
Predictive today, reactive yesterday.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 10:43:42 AM
It depends on who the "top notch starter" is, but for the most part no.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/vWDrezW0rMjmM/giphy.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZDYSvP9.gif)
(https://www.askideas.com/media/37/Man-Laughing-Funny-Gif-Image.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 22, 2018, 09:51:05 AM
It absolutely has in impact and there is so much volatility in bullpens and relief pitchers as it is. Starters going 6+ regularly and keeping a pen fresh and healthy is a big deal.
Granted, this is just one example out of money but the Cubs had some health and effectiveness issues in their rotation last year. Hendricks missed time, Lackey was bad, they rolled out pure garbage from what was the #5 spot until they traded for Quintana. With basically the same personnel their bullpen hit the toilet the last two months of the season.
March/April: 2.87 ERA/ 78.1 IP
May: 3.49 ERA/108.1 IP
June: 3.55 ERA/88.2 IP
July: 3.36 ERA/85.2 IP
August: 4.96 ERA/90.2 IP
Sept/Oct: 4.36 ERA/107.1 IP
Again, this is obviously a small sample size of one team in one season but I'd be surprised it it was uncommon.
The Orioles have already figured out how to beat bullpen fatigue. Have 4-5 core arms that you only use in winnable games.
Then load up on disposable arms with minor league options remaining. Cycle through the bottom of the bullpen as needed.
That has been the key to them making the playoffs. Of course, their failure to develop starters and overreliance on high strikeout power hitters has turned them into a mess this season. But they were forerunners in the bullpen game.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2018, 10:57:55 AM
I always felt a good bullpen was like a crapshoot. Good one year and then scouted the next. Many relievers, especially middle and set-up, are one pitch ponies. I remember Carlos Marmol was unhittable one year and unpitchable the next. Batters learned just to take his pitches and wait for him to mentally self-destruct.
Many great closers, on the other hand, had a variety of pitches (Rivera), many were ex-starters (Eckersley, Gossage). So, I think the advancement is to use these guys today selectively and situationally to save a starter when his efficacy drops in-game, versus fillers between a starter pushed as far as he could go without getting into too much trouble before you bring the closer in.
Predictive today, reactive yesterday.
Bullpens and relief pitchers are still highly volatile. Many relievers are failed starters.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Rivera primarily relied on the cutter, similar to Jansen today.
Quote from: Lazar's Canadian Bacon Headband on May 22, 2018, 11:01:43 AM
The Orioles have already figured out how to beat bullpen fatigue. Have 4-5 core arms that you only use in winnable games.
Then load up on disposable arms with minor league options remaining. Cycle through the bottom of the bullpen as needed.
That has been the key to them making the playoffs. Of course, their failure to develop starters and overreliance on high strikeout power hitters has turned them into a mess this season. But they were forerunners in the bullpen game.
Yeah, I noticed that in some of the stats I posted on page 36 where their wildcard team has the 3rd best bullpen ERA but the 24th rotation ERA. I think it's pretty clear that was an outlier, especially with a difference that drastic. They have had some great bullpen arms with Britton, Bach, O'Day, Givens, etc.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 22, 2018, 10:59:45 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/vWDrezW0rMjmM/giphy.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZDYSvP9.gif)
(https://www.askideas.com/media/37/Man-Laughing-Funny-Gif-Image.gif)
I'm glad you are laughing. The Brewers are in 1st in the Central Division largely because of their bullpen. Hader is clearly the most important piece of that bullpen. If Cubs fans are cool with having a starting pitching rotation and lineup that is gigantically more talented but are going to have a full season of letting the Brewers hang around again, cool. You can keep laughing all season long and maybe your team will call some more rain outs during a sunny day because the far less talented team with a far better bullpen is pushing them to their limit.
Quote from: Lazar's Canadian Bacon Headband on May 22, 2018, 11:01:43 AM
The Orioles have already figured out how to beat bullpen fatigue. Have 4-5 core arms that you only use in winnable games.
Then load up on disposable arms with minor league options remaining. Cycle through the bottom of the bullpen as needed.
That has been the key to them making the playoffs. Of course, their failure to develop starters and overreliance on high strikeout power hitters has turned them into a mess this season. But they were forerunners in the bullpen game.
I think Stearns is borrowing from that playbook.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 10:43:42 AM
It depends on who the "top notch starter" is, but for the most part no.
Who would and wouldn't you trade for assuming money, age, and contract don't matter. Base it all on what this player can do for your team this season.
Max Scherzer
Clayton Kershaw
Jon Lester
Aaron Nola
Justin Verlander
Chris Sale
Corey Kluber
James Paxton
Gerrit Cole
Rick Porcello
Johnny Cueto
Luis Severino
Jeremy Jeffress (yes I know you already have him)
Tanner Roark
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 11:20:50 AM
You can keep laughing all season long and maybe your team will call some more rain outs during a sunny day because the far less talented team with a far better bullpen is pushing them to their limit.
Still hanging your hat on that, huh?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 22, 2018, 11:42:25 AM
Still hanging your hat on that, huh?
Is anything I said wrong? I assume Cubs fans would rank the importance of each group as 1) starting rotation 2) lineup/position players 3) bullpen (maybe flip 1 and 2?). The Cubs starting rotation is unquestionable waaaaaay better than the Brewers, especially given the time missed due to injury/illness, and was last year. The Cubs lineup is better than the Brewers by a fairly large margin and was last year. Yet last year the Brewers led the division for 3/4 of the year and this year the Brewers lead the division. So what gives?
If you ignore the bullpen, which you obviously think is the least important aspect of a baseball roster, the Cubs should've led the division from start to finish with absolutely no issue whatsoever last year and this year.
Who's hanging any hats? But keep reaching.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 11:46:47 AM
Is anything I said wrong? I assume Cubs fans would rank the importance of each group as 1) starting rotation 2) lineup/position players 3) bullpen (maybe flip 1 and 2?). The Cubs starting rotation is unquestionable waaaaaay better than the Brewers, especially given the time missed due to injury/illness, and was last year. The Cubs lineup is better than the Brewers by a fairly large margin and was last year. Yet last year the Brewers led the division for 3/4 of the year and this year the Brewers lead the division. So what gives?
So, I have no dog in this fight, but does anyone really give a flying you know what about who leads the division for 3/4 of the year? Should anyone?
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 10:43:42 AM
Please, tell me more about how player salaries prove how important that player is to a team...
This isn't a ridiculous notion. While the contracts don't often age well (sometimes even right away) it represents a snapshot of that player's open market value when they were in free agency. The number allocated to starters is almost always higher than it is for relievers. That indicates, to me, that front offices place higher value on starters than they do on relievers. Likewise, when starters are traded, they are often traded for a higher return than relievers, now other factors can play in as well, but generally starters command more value in limited resources, whether it be players in trade or dollars in free agency.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2018, 10:57:55 AM
I always felt a good bullpen was like a crapshoot. Good one year and then scouted the next. Many relievers, especially middle and set-up, are one pitch ponies. I remember Carlos Marmol was unhittable one year and unpitchable the next. Batters learned just to take his pitches and wait for him to mentally self-destruct.
Many great closers, on the other hand, had a variety of pitches (Rivera), many were ex-starters (Eckersley, Gossage). So, I think the advancement is to use these guys today selectively and situationally to save a starter when his efficacy drops in-game, versus fillers between a starter pushed as far as he could go without getting into too much trouble before you bring the closer in.
Predictive today, reactive yesterday.
Generally I agree with your point here, but wasn't Rivera very well renowned for pretty much throwing nothing but cutters?
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 11:46:47 AM
Is anything I said wrong? I assume Cubs fans would rank the importance of each group as 1) starting rotation 2) lineup/position players 3) bullpen (maybe flip 1 and 2?). The Cubs starting rotation is unquestionable waaaaaay better than the Brewers, especially given the time missed due to injury/illness, and was last year. The Cubs lineup is better than the Brewers by a fairly large margin and was last year. Yet last year the Brewers led the division for 3/4 of the year and this year the Brewers lead the division. So what gives?
If you ignore the bullpen, which you obviously think is the least important aspect of a baseball roster, the Cubs should've led the division from start to finish with absolutely no issue whatsoever last year and this year.
Who's hanging any hats? But keep reaching.
I think most people, including front offices would prioritize their lineup and starting rotation over bullpen. The highest paid reliever in baseball (Melancon) is 37th overall. Obviously the traditional balance of rotation and bullpen is shifting, but I think teams won't be building their teams from the bullpen-out for a while.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 11:59:23 AM
This isn't a ridiculous notion. While the contracts don't often age well (sometimes even right away) it represents a snapshot of that player's open market value when they were in free agency. The number allocated to starters is almost always higher than it is for relievers. That indicates, to me, that front offices place higher value on starters than they do on relievers. Likewise, when starters are traded, they are often traded for a higher return than relievers, now other factors can play in as well, but generally starters command more value in limited resources, whether it be players in trade or dollars in free agency.
Yep.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:01:21 PM
Generally I agree with your point here, but wasn't Rivera very well renowned for pretty much throwing nothing but cutters?
Yeah, I posted the same thing.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but it seems fun...
Max Scherzer --- Duh. Yes.
Clayton Kershaw -- Duh Yes
Jon Lester --Nope, he is getting older, his year last year worries me, highest BB rate of his career, one of the lowest K rates of his career, just some concerning things. Hmm. So damn good in the playoffs though. I may, hmm, needs more consideration, but I lean towards no.
Aaron Nola --Yes
Justin Verlander -- Yes
Chris Sale -- Yes
Corey Kluber -- Yes
James Paxton -- Yes
Gerrit Cole -- Yes, though I am curious to his resurgence. I would tread carefully here I think.
Rick Porcello -- No, don't trust him. Never have.
Johnny Cueto -- No (the mysterious injury worries me)
Luis Severino -- Yes
Jeremy Jeffress (yes I know you already have him) -- No. And I would laugh at and hang up on a GM that offered this.
Tanner Roark -- See Jeffress, Jeremy.
Edit --- other no brainers include...
Carlos Martinez, De Grom, Thor, Strasburg, Carrasco and despite the injuries the last 2 years, Bumgarner.
There is a ton of value in what Hader is doing. He is as sure a thing as there is on the mound right now. Hitters have basically had no chance, but 1-2 innings at a shot, even a few times a week, isn't the same as starter that gets you into the 7th inning or beyond with similar dominance. If it was, any of those guys above could be, and would have been, moved into the bullpen.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 22, 2018, 12:03:21 PM
Yeah, I posted the same thing.
Sorry, replied as I was reading it.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 11:20:50 AM
I'm glad you are laughing. The Brewers are in 1st in the Central Division largely because of their bullpen. Hader is clearly the most important piece of that bullpen. If Cubs fans are cool with having a starting pitching rotation and lineup that is gigantically more talented but are going to have a full season of letting the Brewers hang around again, cool. You can keep laughing all season long and maybe your team will call some more rain outs during a sunny day because the far less talented team with a far better bullpen is pushing them to their limit.
I'm laughing because the fact that you won't trade Hader, assuming he remains in this kind of role, for most elite starters is, well, hilarious. And dumb. Of course, age and salaries play a part but all things being equal an elite starter is more important and valuable than an elite reliever.
You must be having some serious comprehension difficulties because I haven't once stated that the Brewers bullpen hasn't greatly contributed to their success through 1/4 of the season.
FYI, the Cubs bullpen has a 2.62 ERA thus far compared to Milwaukee's 2.58, albeit with 17 and 1/3 less innings pitched. The Astros' bullpen has a 2.62 ERA but has thrown 60 innings less than Milwaukee already because of how fantastic their rotation has been. We'll see if the effectiveness of the Brewers bullpen remains at current levels as the season progresses and innings pile up.
And yet another in the never-ending references to the rain out. You really, really, really need some new material.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/RL0xU1daTlMoE/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 22, 2018, 12:18:17 PM
I'm laughing because the fact that you won't trade Hader, assuming he remains in this kind of role, for most elite starters is, well, hilarious. And dumb. Of course, age and salaries play a part but all things being equal an elite starter is more important and valuable than an elite reliever.
You must be having some serious comprehension difficulties because I haven't once stated that the Brewers bullpen hasn't greatly contributed to their success through 1/4 of the season.
FYI, the Cubs bullpen has a 2.62 ERA thus far compared to Milwaukee's 2.58, albeit with 17 and 1/3 less innings pitched. The Astros' bullpen has a 2.62 ERA but has thrown 60 innings less than Milwaukee already because of how fantastic their rotation has been. We'll see if the effectiveness of the Brewers bullpen remains at current levels as the season progresses and innings pile up.
And yet another in the never-ending references to the rain out. You really, really, really need some new material.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/RL0xU1daTlMoE/giphy.gif)
Says the guy who's only insult is, "genius."
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:10:59 PM
Sorry, replied as I was reading it.
No need to apologize. Was just agreeing with you and thought maybe my mind was playing tricks on me.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 22, 2018, 12:20:31 PM
Says the guy who's only insult is, "genius."
Wades, I have a whole arsenal of creative insults ready for you but I'm trying to maintain some level of decorum here.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 22, 2018, 12:18:17 PM
FYI, the Cubs bullpen has a 2.62 ERA thus far compared to Milwaukee's 2.58, albeit with 17 and 1/3 less innings pitched. The Astros' bullpen has a 2.62 ERA but has thrown 60 innings less than Milwaukee already because of how fantastic their rotation has been. We'll see if the effectiveness of the Brewers bullpen remains at current levels as the season progresses and innings pile up.
One thing in their favor they prevent them from burning out is that pretty much everyone has been pitching well, and the innings have been pretty even so it doesn't seem like anyone has been overworked. On the other hand, relying on Matt Albers would be concerning to me, because, as a Sox fan, I have seen him start seasons great and completely fall apart.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:01:21 PM
Generally I agree with your point here, but wasn't Rivera very well renowned for pretty much throwing nothing but cutters?
Cut fastball, slider and change up. Early in his career, again as a starter, he threw a slider quite a bit but hurt himself and had surgery where his pitch evolved. This was similar to Bruce Sutter, where he developed his splitter after hurting his arm as a starter.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2018, 12:31:57 PM
Cut fastball, slider and change up. Early in his career, again as a starter, he threw a slider quite a bit but hurt himself and had surgery where his pitch evolved. This was similar to Bruce Sutter, where he developed his splitter after hurting his arm as a starter.
At least according to Fangraphs PitchFx, Rivera threw his cutter basically 89% of the time from 2007 to 2013. The only other pitch he threw was a sinker.
https://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=844&position=P
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:30:26 PM
One thing in their favor they prevent them from burning out is that pretty much everyone has been pitching well, and the innings have been pretty even so it doesn't seem like anyone has been overworked. On the other hand, relying on Matt Albers would be concerning to me, because, as a Sox fan, I have seen him start seasons great and completely fall apart.
Good point - it's certainly possible they keep it up.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:30:26 PM
One thing in their favor they prevent them from burning out is that pretty much everyone has been pitching well, and the innings have been pretty even so it doesn't seem like anyone has been overworked. On the other hand, relying on Matt Albers would be concerning to me, because, as a Sox fan, I have seen him start seasons great and completely fall apart.
What's Hader's usage expected to be? He's on track for 100+ innings.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2018, 12:31:57 PM
Cut fastball, slider and change up. Early in his career, again as a starter, he threw a slider quite a bit but hurt himself and had surgery where his pitch evolved. This was similar to Bruce Sutter, where he developed his splitter after hurting his arm as a starter.
Not quite what I remembered, so I checked it out, this is for later in his career, so what you're saying is probably dead on for his early career, but from 2007 on, he was rarely throwing anything but the cutter.
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?player=121250&time=&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=05/22/2018&s_type=2
Edit: Haha! Beat me to it again VBMG.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:44:09 PM
Not quite what I remembered, so I checked it out, this is for later in his career, so what you're saying is probably dead on for his early career, but from 2007 on, he was rarely throwing anything but the cutter.
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?player=121250&time=&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=05/22/2018&s_type=2
Edit: Haha! Beat me to it again VBMG.
Yeah, I apparently don't feel like working very hard today. Or moreso than usual anyway.
I'm guessing the salaries of starters will soon start to reflect the changes in the game. Only the true aces will get really big $$$$$.
Andrew Miller should be interesting this off-season. It will show us how teams value "bullpen aces".
Quote from: Jockey on May 22, 2018, 12:50:59 PM
I'm guessing the salaries of starters will soon start to reflect the changes in the game. Only the true aces will get really big $$$$$.
Andrew Miller should be interesting this off-season. It will show us how teams value "bullpen aces".
Well Jansen just got 5/80 and Chapman got 5/86, so I assume he'll be looking for something similar. Davis got 3/52 as well too. So 16-18/year for 4-5 years?
Quote from: LAZER on May 22, 2018, 01:00:58 PM
Well Jansen just got 5/80 and Chapman got 5/86, so I assume he'll be looking for something similar. Davis got 3/52 as well too. So 16-18/year for 4-5 years?
I was referring more to guys who aren't closers. Do you think Miller gets closing money?
Quote from: Jockey on May 22, 2018, 01:17:58 PM
I was referring more to guys who aren't closers. Do you think Miller gets closing money?
Closing money? I thought that was a thing of the past, replaced by high leverage any point in the game money. LOL.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 22, 2018, 01:52:31 PM
Closing money? I thought that was a thing of the past, replaced by high leverage any point in the game money. LOL.
Black & white, baby. Black & white.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:10:27 PM
Max Scherzer --- Duh. Yes.
Clayton Kershaw -- Duh Yes
Jon Lester --Nope, he is getting older, his year last year worries me, highest BB rate of his career, one of the lowest K rates of his career, just some concerning things. Hmm. So damn good in the playoffs though. I may, hmm, needs more consideration, but I lean towards no.
Aaron Nola --Yes
Justin Verlander -- Yes
Chris Sale -- Yes
Corey Kluber -- Yes
James Paxton -- Yes
Gerrit Cole -- Yes, though I am curious to his resurgence. I would tread carefully here I think.
Rick Porcello -- No, don't trust him. Never have.
Johnny Cueto -- No (the mysterious injury worries me)
Luis Severino -- Yes
Jeremy Jeffress (yes I know you already have him) -- No. And I would laugh at and hang up on a GM that offered this.
Tanner Roark -- See Jeffress, Jeremy.
Edit --- other no brainers include...
Carlos Martinez, De Grom, Thor, Strasburg, Carrasco and despite the injuries the last 2 years, Bumgarner.
As a Brewers' fan, I agree with this.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 12:44:09 PM
Not quite what I remembered, so I checked it out, this is for later in his career, so what you're saying is probably dead on for his early career, but from 2007 on, he was rarely throwing anything but the cutter.
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?player=121250&time=&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=05/22/2018&s_type=2
Edit: Haha! Beat me to it again VBMG.
Great but they don't have his velocity charts (that I saw) as they do in beta for the likes of Kershaw today. As I said, he threw a cutter (cutting fastball), slider and change up (off his fast ball). Changing speeds from his cutter was his specialness. He can't have a change up without a fastball. I am pretty sure you aren't maintaining he threw his cutter the same speed every pitch?
Greg Maddox also made the HOF with being able to locate and change speeds with a mediocre cut fast ball.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
Great but they don't have his velocity charts (that I saw) as they do in beta for the likes of Kershaw today. As I said, he threw a cutter (cutting fastball), slider and change up (off his fast ball). Changing speeds from his cutter was his specialness. He can't have a change up without a fastball. I am pretty sure you aren't maintaining he threw his cutter the same speed every pitch?
Greg Maddox also made the HOF with being able to locate and change speeds with a mediocre cut fast ball.
Here it is.
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/velo.php?player=121250&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA|SI|FC|CU|SL|CS|KN|CH|FS|SB&time=month&minmax=std&var=mph&s_type=2&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=05/22/2018
He added and subtracted a bit, but not huge variance.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 07:21:32 PM
Here it is.
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/velo.php?player=121250&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA|SI|FC|CU|SL|CS|KN|CH|FS|SB&time=month&minmax=std&var=mph&s_type=2&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=05/22/2018
He added and subtracted a bit, but not huge variance.
QuoteNo data found for that set of parameters.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2018, 08:28:09 PM
Well what the devil...
So for whatever reason I can't get the link to copy...
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/velo.php?player=121250&time=month&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=05/22/2018&s_type=2
Try this one, then go to the bottom of the menu on the right and click +/- standard deviation or the max and minimum.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 22, 2018, 08:40:41 PM
Well what the devil...
So for whatever reason I can't get the link to copy...
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/velo.php?player=121250&time=month&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=05/22/2018&s_type=2
Try this one, then go to the bottom of the menu on the right and click +/- standard deviation or the max and minimum.
Thanks. The min/max shows the spread on the cutter speed better. (STD is more about regression to the mean.) Much more variance on the cutter. Dude was special.
Honestly, how does an ump like that not get canned? And how bout Couns? I think he needs to sign on and put himself in as a pinch runner.
Quote from: jsglow on May 23, 2018, 07:29:51 AM
Honestly, how does an ump like that not get canned? And how bout Couns? I think he needs to sign on and put himself in as a pinch runner.
Pretty much the definition of a good ejection. If he didn't get out there it was clear that Knebel or Pina was going to say something to get tossed, gotta protect your players. As for the missed call, its inexcusable at that level in the bottom of the ninth in a one run ballgame.
Rare occurrence this late in the season, the Yankees are in first place but are a half game behind the Red Sox.
Yankees have a .689 winning percentage and the Red Sox have a .688 winning percentage, so if the season ended today the Yankees would win the division. However, the Red Sox have played 3 more games and won two of them, so the Yankees are a half game behind the Red Sox.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 23, 2018, 08:39:46 AM
Pretty much the definition of a good ejection. If he didn't get out there it was clear that Knebel or Pina was going to say something to get tossed, gotta protect your players. As for the missed call, its inexcusable at that level in the bottom of the ninth in a one run ballgame.
Gotta love Pina's seed to second just moments later. And I read that Knebel went to Couns' office after the game to thank him for the bailout. I haven't seen the clips of the 8th but it was reported that the ump seriously squeezed Hader too.
Onto today.
Quote from: jsglow on May 23, 2018, 10:41:04 AM
Gotta love Pina's seed to second just moments later. And I read that Knebel went to Couns' office after the game to thank him for the bailout. I haven't seen the clips of the 8th but it was reported that the ump seriously squeezed Hader too.
Onto today.
If only there was a resource to track strikes and balls....
(http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/numlocation.php?pitchSel=623352&game=gid_2018_05_22_arimlb_milmlb_1/&batterX=&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=&league=mlb&pnf=&zlpo=)
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 23, 2018, 01:26:36 PM
If only there was a resource to track strikes and balls....
(http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/numlocation.php?pitchSel=623352&game=gid_2018_05_22_arimlb_milmlb_1/&batterX=&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=&league=mlb&pnf=&zlpo=)
Not a fan despite the occasional mistake.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 23, 2018, 01:26:36 PM
If only there was a resource to track strikes and balls....
(http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/numlocation.php?pitchSel=623352&game=gid_2018_05_22_arimlb_milmlb_1/&batterX=&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=&league=mlb&pnf=&zlpo=)
I didn't see the play, but if this is the bad call...Doesn't seem too bad to me.
Boy have the DBacks fallen apart and quickly.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 23, 2018, 03:28:29 PM
I didn't see the play, but if this is the bad call...Doesn't seem too bad to me.
Boy have the DBacks fallen apart and quickly.
It was a bad call, but the situation made it worse. If that's ball one in the 4th inning its no big deal and likely gets forgotten about, but ball 4 in a one run game in the ninth, much bigger deal. Counsell also probably doesn't go out to argue if Knebel doesn't have that reaction. It was done almost exclusively to protect him, and Knebel knew it, and reportedly thanked him for it afterwords.
Quote from: jsglow on May 23, 2018, 03:03:17 PM
Not a fan despite the occasional mistake.
Not a fan of the data?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 23, 2018, 03:54:17 PM
Not a fan of the data?
I know it sounds dumb to advocate arbitrary strike zones, but I wonder how good batters would get at judging balls & strikes with an automated zone.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 23, 2018, 03:54:17 PM
Not a fan of the data?
No, not a fan of further automation in baseball. Personally, I hate the replay rule. I acknowledge my inconsistency because I like it to a limited extent in football.
Oh, btw, the Crew is sporting the best record in their history over it first 50 games at 31-19. Long way to go of course.
Quote from: jsglow on May 23, 2018, 04:30:43 PM
Oh, btw, the Crew is sporting the best record in their history over it first 50 games at 31-19. Long way to go of course.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos
23rd in strength of schedule. But hey, you can only play who is on the schedule.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 23, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos
23rd in strength of schedule. But hey, you can only play who is on the schedule.
Hmm. I don't think I have ever seen anyone quote SOS as a baseball measure.
Unscientifically looking back a couple seasons, looks like this has no bearing on anything and probably doesn't mean anything at all.
I believe they just go by the winning percentage of the teams you've played.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 23, 2018, 05:16:19 PM
Unscientifically looking back a couple seasons, looks like this has no bearing on anything and probably doesn't mean anything at all.
In theory, at the end of the season you should have nearly the same SOS as everyone else in your division since everyone pretty much has the same schedule except for natural rivals.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 23, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos
23rd in strength of schedule. But hey, you can only play who is on the schedule.
congratulations.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 23, 2018, 05:24:34 PM
I believe they just go by the winning percentage of the teams you've played.
In theory, at the end of the season you should have nearly the same SOS as everyone else in your division since everyone pretty much has the same schedule except for natural rivals.
Well to quote the Hawk, " Its not who you play, its when you play them"
Also teams may not face the same pitchers. For example the Cubs get neither Kluber or Carrasco against the Indians this week. The Brewers may face both. Not exactly equivalent.
The Brewers series with the DBacks is a great example. I have never put stock into MLB SoS, and will continue to not do so.
And to use a 1 year 1 division terrible sample, the AL Central last year had teams that finished 2,6,18,19, 21. Not exactly a precise grouping. Wouldn't teams that are better naturally be closer to the bottom of this scale?
Every year baseball has new statistical measures. It seems too simple but the team run differential is the number I watch the most, and w/l record next.
This year through 50 games ....my Astros dream starter crew
(see: http://www.espn.com/mlb/team/stats/pitching/_/name/hou/houston-astros )
has them with a team runs allowed of only 126 runs...a team era of 2.42.
Since the dead ball era of early 1900s only the 1968 Indians have been close to this. Our run differential is now plus 110...should be more but our outfielders havent been hitting very well so far
See you in the playoffs
Quote from: houwarrior on May 23, 2018, 06:50:44 PM
Every year baseball has new statistical measures. It seems too simple but the team run differential is the number I watch the most, and w/l record next.
This year through 50 games ....my Astros dream starter crew
(see: http://www.espn.com/mlb/team/stats/pitching/_/name/hou/houston-astros )
has them with a team runs allowed of only 126 runs...a team era of 2.42.
Since the dead ball era of early 1900s only the 1968 Indians have been close to this. Our run differential is now plus 110...should be more but our outfielders havent been hitting very well so far
See you in the playoffs
Houston is damn good.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 23, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos
23rd in strength of schedule. But hey, you can only play who is on the schedule.
If only the brewers didn't lose to K-State....
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 23, 2018, 08:10:27 PM
If only the brewers didn't lose to K-State....
I thought that was in the secret scrimmage!
This is either the worst or best thread on Scoop.
Quote from: TAMU McEwen on May 23, 2018, 09:28:39 PM
This is either the worst or best thread on Scoop.
Year by year, it's the worst.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 23, 2018, 05:28:19 PM
And to use a 1 year 1 division terrible sample, the AL Central last year had teams that finished 2,6,18,19, 21. Not exactly a precise grouping. Wouldn't teams that are better naturally be closer to the bottom of this scale?
That's a good point. Despite everyone playing nearly the same schedule the team at the top plays everyone lower while the team at the bottom plays everyone higher.
That must be where the gaps come from.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
He can't have a change up without a fastball.
Doug Jones would like a word with you :)
"Jones announced his retirement on December 7, 2000.[1] His 303 career saves ranked 12th in major league history upon his retirement, and his 846 career appearances ranked 21st. A changeup specialist, he was known for keeping hitters off balance by throwing extremely slow pitches.
He threw a two-seam fastball that topped out in the low-to-mid 80s and a knuckle curve on occasion."
I topped out at 83mph in high school. Too bad I didn't have Doug Jones' change up.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 18, 2018, 12:52:29 PM
Even with the great start, the Brewers would have to beat Arrieta in a one-game playoff if the season ended May 17.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdahKd0VwAEYZp5?format=jpg&name=small)
and now the brewers would be waiting for the winner of that same phillies team and the pirates as the 1 seed in the nl.
oh and the cubs would continue to be out of the playoffs.
lotta game left.
Quote from: WithoutBias on May 24, 2018, 12:53:41 PM
and now the brewers would be waiting for the winner of that same phillies team and the pirates as the 1 seed in the nl.
oh and the cubs would continue to be out of the playoffs.
lotta game left.
Which is why these things are dumb in May.
Quote from: jsglow on May 24, 2018, 01:16:53 PM
Which is why these things are dumb in May.
Yup. I recall going to a Brewers-Cardinals series in St. Louis just before the AS break one year when the Crew had, I believe, a 10 game lead on the division. They got Yosted.
One game got rained out by a MASSIVE electrical storm--it was just as well, Yovani was pitching and the Cards always had his number and he had already scored in the 1st off him--and in the other Corey Hart drilled a HR to center that hit a girl two rows up flush in chest. It was like she didn't know to raise her hands as the ball rocketed towards her.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 24, 2018, 01:22:05 PM
Yup. I recall going to a Brewers-Cardinals series in St. Louis just before the AS break one year when the Crew had, I believe, a 10 game lead on the division. They got Yosted.
You mean they won 2 straight pennants and 1 World Series?
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 24, 2018, 01:43:00 PM
You mean they won 2 straight pennants and 1 World Series?
Sadly, unlike the Royals, they didn't have enough talent to overcome the ineptitude of Yost.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 24, 2018, 02:59:23 PM
Sadly, unlike the Royals, they didn't have enough talent to overcome the ineptitude of Yost.
So, your contention is that they Royals were better because they were more talented. Wow, weird. With all that talent that the Brewers traded to the Royals to boot. That seems like it can be blamed on Ned Yost.
The strength of that Royals team was the bullpen, which Ned Yost managed perfectly.
Wellington Castillo suspended 80 games for PEDs.
No doubt he got them from a certain former battery mate.
/ducks
Quote from: Pakuni on May 24, 2018, 03:33:48 PM
Wellington Castillo suspended 80 games for PEDs.
No doubt he got them from a certain former battery mate.
/ducks
Nah, I don't think former Brewer Zack Greinke gave them to him. ;)
Quote from: Pakuni on May 24, 2018, 03:33:48 PM
Wellington Castillo suspended 80 games for PEDs.
No doubt he got them from a certain former battery mate.
/ducks
Chase Anderson, when they were both in Arizona?
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 24, 2018, 03:25:15 PM
So, your contention is that they Royals were better because they were more talented. Wow, weird. With all that talent that the Brewers traded to the Royals to boot. That seems like it can be blamed on Ned Yost.
The strength of that Royals team was the bullpen, which Ned Yost managed perfectly.
Well, it was a bit tongue in cheek in that I (obviously) think Yost is a horrible manager. One thing he does well is get young guys to play hard and believe that they can win, but he is an atrocious strategic and tactical manager.
I disagree about managing the bullpen perfectly. Yost's ironclad philosophy is that you have "a 7th inning gut", "an 8th inning guy", and a "9th inning/closer" guy, and he is going to run them out there for one inning each, in that order, no matter what the situation calls for. Quite the opposite of the idea that you use you best guys based on match-ups and high leverage situation.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 24, 2018, 05:21:07 PM
Yost's ironclad philosophy is that you have "a 7th inning gut", "an 8th inning guy", and a "9th inning/closer" guy,
Some people have a gut all 9 innings. Depending on when I start tailgating, I can achieve a gut by the 3rd or 4th inning.
Hanley Ramirez is DFA'ed. Didn't see that coming.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/05/25/red-sox-part-ways-with-hanley-ramirez/V8PHkHq10EEMLEATQKCeQK/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/05/25/red-sox-part-ways-with-hanley-ramirez/V8PHkHq10EEMLEATQKCeQK/story.html)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on May 25, 2018, 10:57:51 AM
Hanley Ramirez is DFA'ed. Didn't see that coming.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/05/25/red-sox-part-ways-with-hanley-ramirez/V8PHkHq10EEMLEATQKCeQK/story.html (https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2018/05/25/red-sox-part-ways-with-hanley-ramirez/V8PHkHq10EEMLEATQKCeQK/story.html)
Intriguing. He's obviously not the Hanley that he was when he signed that monster deal, but he's been plenty serviceable this season (especially early). Would be a decent depth option, but you'd have to make sure you don't get forced to play him enough for that option to vest ($22M next year at 497 plate appearances, sits at 200 right now).
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 24, 2018, 05:21:07 PM
Well, it was a bit tongue in cheek in that I (obviously) think Yost is a horrible manager. One thing he does well is get young guys to play hard and believe that they can win, but he is an atrocious strategic and tactical manager.
I disagree about managing the bullpen perfectly. Yost's ironclad philosophy is that you have "a 7th inning gut", "an 8th inning guy", and a "9th inning/closer" guy, and he is going to run them out there for one inning each, in that order, no matter what the situation calls for. Quite the opposite of the idea that you use you best guys based on match-ups and high leverage situation.
I think we just disagree here. I think how he ran the KC team in '14 and '15 was pretty masterful. Especially the bullpen, which is where you seem to have the most issues. Looking back at his Brewer teams, it may not have been his management, it may have been terrible bullpens.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 25, 2018, 12:04:02 PM
I think we just disagree here. I think how he ran the KC team in '14 and '15 was pretty masterful. Especially the bullpen, which is where you seem to have the most issues. Looking back at his Brewer teams, it may not have been his management, it may have been terrible bullpens.
I remember thinking around that time that the KC bullpen was so good, even Yost couldn't screw it up.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 25, 2018, 12:04:02 PM
I think we just disagree here. I think how he ran the KC team in '14 and '15 was pretty masterful. Especially the bullpen, which is where you seem to have the most issues. Looking back at his Brewer teams, it may not have been his management, it may have been terrible bullpens.
We'll have to disagree.
He was terrible with the bullpen, but he was terrible with everything. Penciling in Rickie Weeks at the top of the line up day after day after day long after Weeks could get on base because in Yost's estimation "Rickie's a run scorer" was an example of his cluelessness outside of the bullpen.
The offense is starting to carry the pitching. Big series coming up against the Cards.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 27, 2018, 06:34:14 PM
The offense is starting to carry the pitching. Big series coming up against the Cards.
Aguilar has been a poor man's Papi so far this season. This team could easily get 75 HRs out of their CIs.
The Brewers were a blast to watch last year because they were an upstart and the players seemed to have a ton of fun. They have been an absolute joy to watch thus far this year, and it feels like they'll be playing for something.
Lotta season left, but they have the look of a team just figuring out that they can be really really good
Even as a huge fan that thought this team had a 50/50 chance of a wild card, I never expected that only the Yankees and Red Sox would have a better record on Memorial Day.
dunno what was worse, that Rizzo slide or the play by play guys with a "nothing to see here" characterization of it as a clean aggressive play
Quote from: MUBurrow on May 28, 2018, 04:51:32 PM
dunno what was worse, that Rizzo slide or the play by play guys with a "nothing to see here" characterization of it as a clean aggressive play
Didn't see it real time, but in the replays, and especially the pictures, it certainly looks dirty. I can't believe the umps let that call stand upon review. Diaz was well out of the play and Rizzo went out of his way to hit him. This is exactly the kind of play baseball has been making rules to avoid.
(https://s3.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/UtaEyywVovkCz_H.u9pBGQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW15O3c9NjQwO3E9NzU7c209MQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/6f8d30f97697fc32172991738d8544fb)
^^ This looks dirty.
Maddon has said that he doesn't care for the Cardinals unwritten rules. By the looks of it, he doesn't care for the written ones either.
The comments above are laughable. The play was absolutely not dirty.
Edit: Maybe "laughable" is too strong but I've seen plenty of dirty slides and that was not one.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 28, 2018, 10:45:18 PM
The comments above are laughable. The play was absolutely not dirty.
I for one am shocked at your opinion.
The play was at best stupid and illegal. And if MLB keeps setting up rules to protect players they should enforce them. He clearly went out of his way and out of the basepath to hit the catcher. That is explicitly against the rule.
As I recall this isn't Rizzo's first grey area encounter with a catcher either.
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 28, 2018, 11:01:54 PM
I for one am shocked at your opinion.
The play was at best stupid and illegal. And if MLB keeps setting up rules to protect players they should enforce them. He clearly went out of his way and out of the basepath to hit the catcher. That is explicitly against the rule.
As I recall this isn't Rizzo's first grey area encounter with a catcher either.
Strange that it wasn't ruled illegal by the umps on the field or the replay team in NY.
FYI, the rule is not the same as if it was just a play at the playe and not a force. Now if it was called the other way and reviewed the call likely would have stood in that instance as well.
On another note...those White Sox.
http://babylonbee.com/news/white-sox-attendance-now-lower-than-average-episcopal-church-service/
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 28, 2018, 11:01:54 PM
I for one am shocked at your opinion.
The play was at best stupid and illegal. And if MLB keeps setting up rules to protect players they should enforce them. He clearly went out of his way and out of the basepath to hit the catcher. That is explicitly against the rule.
As I recall this isn't Rizzo's first grey area encounter with a catcher either.
This is the rule.
Sliding to Bases on Double Play Attempts
If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner:
(1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base;
(2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot;
(3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and
(4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.
A runner who engages in a "bona fide slide" shall not be called for interference under this Rule 6.01, even in cases where the runner makes contact with the fielder as a consequence of a permissible slide. In addition, interference shall not be called where a runner's contact with the fielder was caused by the fielder being positioned in (or moving into) the runner's legal pathway to the base.
Notwithstanding the above, a slide shall not be a "bona fide slide" if a runner engages in a "roll block," or intentionally initiates (or attempts to initiate) contact with the fielder by elevating and kicking his leg above the fielder's knee or throwing his arm or his upper body.
If the umpire determines that the runner violated this Rule 6.01(j), the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter-runner out. Note, however, that if the runner has already been put out then the runner on whom the defense was attempting to make a play shall be declared out.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on May 29, 2018, 07:34:13 AM
This is the rule.
Sliding to Bases on Double Play Attempts
If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner:
(1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base;
(2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot;
(3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and
(4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.
A runner who engages in a "bona fide slide" shall not be called for interference under this Rule 6.01, even in cases where the runner makes contact with the fielder as a consequence of a permissible slide. In addition, interference shall not be called where a runner's contact with the fielder was caused by the fielder being positioned in (or moving into) the runner's legal pathway to the base.
Notwithstanding the above, a slide shall not be a "bona fide slide" if a runner engages in a "roll block," or intentionally initiates (or attempts to initiate) contact with the fielder by elevating and kicking his leg above the fielder's knee or throwing his arm or his upper body.
If the umpire determines that the runner violated this Rule 6.01(j), the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter-runner out. Note, however, that if the runner has already been put out then the runner on whom the defense was attempting to make a play shall be declared out.
Rizzo did #1, #2, and #3. #4 is tricky and is a judgement call. There is no "slide to avoid contact" like there is in youth or collegiate baseball. However, if you change direction to slide into the catcher, then it IS illegal. If you watch the video, Rizzo started running OUTSIDE the third base line (as players are taught) then cuts INSIDE the line about 20 feet from home. Is that far enough back to not be considered changing direction?? I guess so.
I umpire baseball from youth leagues, to high school, to adults. And in ALL of those situations, I'm probably calling the play interference.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 28, 2018, 11:08:50 PM
Strange that it wasn't ruled illegal by the umps on the field or the replay team in NY.
FYI, the rule is not the same as if it was just a play at the playe and not a force. Now if it was called the other way and reviewed the call likely would have stood in that instance as well.
Rizzo could reach the plate with the way that he was sliding but he definitely changed his path and should have been called for interference. I believe that the umps and NY botched that call. It was NOT a dirty play, it was a "good, hard baseball play," but with the current rules, it should have been called interference.
If Braun did that to Contreras, I'd assume the reactions would be a little different here.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 29, 2018, 08:57:10 AM
If Braun did that to Contreras, I'd assume the reactions would be a little different here.
Only because we all hate braun. ;D
Also, it was a dirty slide. lol
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 29, 2018, 08:57:10 AM
If Braun did that to Contreras, I'd assume the reactions would be a little different here.
(https://staceyneil.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/dont-assume_v02.jpg)
It wasn't illegal, but I don't think it was great either.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 29, 2018, 08:29:36 AM
Rizzo could reach the plate with the way that he was sliding but he definitely changed his path and should have been called for interference. I believe that the umps and NY botched that call. It was NOT a dirty play, it was a "good, hard baseball play," but with the current rules, it should have been called interference.
Like I said, I think if the call at the play had been interference and they reviewed it the call would have stood. The main point I'm arguing is that it wasn't dirty.
Here is the first line from the new collisions at home plate rule
"A runner attempting to score may not deviate from his direct pathway to the plate in order to initiate contact with the catcher (or other player covering home plate)."
Rizzo definitely changed his path to hit the catcher. Simple as that. Should have been an illegal slide.
If Diaz had been injured, I think the play would have been universally vilified. Diaz caught the ball, got the out, cleared the area and Rizzo went out to get him, changing his path to do so.
Diaz didn't get hurt so it isn't the biggest deal in the world, and I am not the biggest fan of all the new "avoid contact" rules, but if they are going to institute these rules, they should be enforced. Rizzo literally violated the first sentence of the rule.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on May 29, 2018, 09:23:38 AM
Like I said, I think if the call at the play had been interference and they reviewed it the call would have stood. The main point I'm arguing is that it wasn't dirty.
Maybe it wasn't. That freeze frame sure makes it look like Rizzo slid up the backside of his legs while he was pretty vulnerable though. Maybe it isn't dirty, but it is a pretty fine line and Rizzo is right on it.
In my opinion Diaz did what he was supposed to do to avoid contact, and Rizzo broke the rule to make sure he initiated contact. That was not incidental contact on the play, it was intentional.
I don't pretend to know or care whether Rizzo had the mens rea to be intentionally "dirty" - I actually think this is almost certainly not the case. Rizzo's a good dude and plays the right way. He made a split second decision to try to break up the play.
But at the same time, I think every sport where opponents can come into physical contact with each other have rules, whether expressly or by implication, that make it illegal for one guy to slide into another guy from behind.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 29, 2018, 08:57:10 AM
If Braun did that to Contreras, I'd assume the reactions would be a little different here.
Honestly, if I'm Madden I DONT start Contreras tonight. Someone on the Buccos will be looking for blood and Contreras is a likely target.
I love a good baseball brawl though, and I bet we get one tonight.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on May 29, 2018, 07:41:01 AM
Rizzo did #1, #2, and #3. #4 is tricky and is a judgement call. There is no "slide to avoid contact" like there is in youth or collegiate baseball. However, if you change direction to slide into the catcher, then it IS illegal. If you watch the video, Rizzo started running OUTSIDE the third base line (as players are taught) then cuts INSIDE the line about 20 feet from home. Is that far enough back to not be considered changing direction?? I guess so.
I umpire baseball from youth leagues, to high school, to adults. And in ALL of those situations, I'm probably calling the play interference.
I don't think he did #3. The meaning of it is that you can slide across the plate and don't need to maintain contact.
Do we think the Brewers are going to be buyers as the trade deadline starts to approach? I'd have to say I wouldn't mind seeing a trade well in advance for a stud pitcher a la CC Sabathia.
It's one thing to take out a SS or 2B who is turning a double play at second and can see the play coming. It's another when the catcher makes the play, steps way out of the way, and is turned the opposite way of the runner. You could snap the catcher's achilles or roll over their ankle. That was bush league.
Quote from: wadesworld on May 29, 2018, 11:58:37 AM
It's one thing to take out a SS or 2B who is turning a double play at second and can see the play coming. It's another when the catcher makes the play, steps way out of the way, and is turned the opposite way of the runner. You could snap the catcher's achilles or roll over their ankle. That was bush league.
A runner in that position can either...
1) Go in hard and try to break up the double play
or
2) Avoid the catcher and concede the out
If the runner is on your team, which would you prefer he do?
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 29, 2018, 11:38:14 AM
Do we think the Brewers are going to be buyers as the trade deadline starts to approach? I'd have to say I wouldn't mind seeing a trade well in advance for a stud pitcher a la CC Sabathia.
The trade deadline isn't starting to approach yet, (Sabathia was traded to the Brewers on July 7, 2008, and that was an "early trade"). A lot can happen in 6 weeks.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 29, 2018, 11:38:14 AM
Do we think the Brewers are going to be buyers as the trade deadline starts to approach? I'd have to say I wouldn't mind seeing a trade well in advance for a stud pitcher a la CC Sabathia.
I think they'll be very active in conversations, but I think they wait until they have all available information before deciding to pull the trigger. I'm not sure they actually do - there are other spots I'd rather take a flier on. They'll see where they are with injuries - specifically Jimmy, but certainly others that come up. I also think they dip their pool in the middle infielder market (gee, wouldn't it be nice to have Scooter Gennett right now?). If healthy, Jimmy is as good a mid-season acquisition as you can hope for.
I also don't know that there's a top of the line guy available, and projecting that is made more difficult since the NL is such a logjam. You look at the guys that moved this offseason, and perhaps only Odorizzi has met or exceeded expectations, and he's certainly no ace. My best guess on who's available, and it's a whole lot of 'meh' if I'm the Brewers.
1. Cole Hamels - Stats look good on Memorial Day, but advanced stats suggest it's not sustainable.
2. Chris Archer - Rays asking a lot (weird given how they mailed it in on their other trades), sports a high 3s FIP. Teammate Snell also a possibility, but have to think they see him as part of the rebuild.
3. Pat Corbin - Could be a great rental candidate for the right team (not Milwaukee)
4. J.A. Happ/Stroman - Happ would be a cheaper rental. Stroman looked REALLY good coming into this year, but the wheels have fallen off. Stats aren't as bad as ERA makes it look.
5. Tyson Ross - another loaner who will cash in in UFA
If those are my options, I'd almost rather go for one more dominant reliever or sit tight. Bummer that the Reds wouldn't trade Iglesias within the division...
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 29, 2018, 12:10:06 PM
A runner in that position can either...
1) Go in hard and try to break up the double play
or
2) Avoid the catcher and concede the out
If the runner is on your team, which would you prefer he do?
Where is the catcher standing? Did he tag home and move in front of the plate such that breaking up the play requires the runner to deviate from the direct path to home plate and take said catcher out from behind?
The slide certainly looked dirty to me. I can't think of a reason that a runner would be on the infield grass (which Rizzo clearly was) before sliding, other than to take out the catcher. No intent to injure, but still should have been interference, he'll get hit tonight though. I'd set the over/under on hbp's tonight at 3.5
Interference, yes. 'Dirty'.... meh. He was clearly trying to disrupt the catcher's throw. But he was also within easy reach of home plate. On the other hand, the play had been made and the catcher was turning before he even started his slide. So the slide was unnecessary and lends credence to the notion he was trying to interfere. To me, 'dirty' means intent to injure. I don't think he was trying to injure.
Quote from: tower912 on May 29, 2018, 01:22:51 PM
Interference, yes. 'Dirty'.... meh. He was clearly trying to disrupt the catcher's throw. But he was also within easy reach of home plate. To me, 'dirty' means intent to injure. I don't think he was trying to injure.
I think anytime you take out a defenseless player from behind, it's questionable. He may not have been going in thinking "I'm going to hurt this guy," but it was a dangerous play nonetheless. There's always going to be some necessary danger involved when a guy is trying to bust up a double play, but what really stands out for me here is coming in at the back of a guy's leg.
I think Rizzo's reputation as a good guy is pushing the narrative in his favor here. I suspect the same play from, say, Chase Utley gets a different reaction.
Quote from: tower912 on May 29, 2018, 01:22:51 PM
Interference, yes. 'Dirty'.... meh. He was clearly trying to disrupt the catcher's throw. But he was also within easy reach of home plate. On the other hand, the play had been made and the catcher was turning before he even started his slide. So the slide was unnecessary and lends credence to the notion he was trying to interfere. To me, 'dirty' means intent to injure. I don't think he was trying to injure.
This is what did it for me. The late slide, combined with running on the infield grass, combined with Diaz being outside the batters box. Take any one of those out and it'd be more understandable.
Sounds like the umps were wrong to not call interference.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23642672/mlb-believes-anthony-rizzo-slide-vs-pittsburgh-pirates-was-interference
Quote from: SaveOD238 on May 29, 2018, 02:34:25 PM
Sounds like the umps were wrong to not call interference.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23642672/mlb-believes-anthony-rizzo-slide-vs-pittsburgh-pirates-was-interference
That's the weakest way to come out and say that. Just one step removed from MLB tweeting "People are saying Rizzo's slide was TOTALLY illegal. We'll see!"
Quote from: GB Warrior on May 29, 2018, 02:46:59 PM
That's the weakest way to come out and say that. Just one step removed from MLB tweeting "People are saying Rizzo's slide was TOTALLY illegal. We'll see!"
@TheoEpstein - "Repulsive Rob Manfred can't even keep his own rules straight!"
Quote from: MUBurrow on May 29, 2018, 01:03:51 PM
Where is the catcher standing? Did he tag home and move in front of the plate such that breaking up the play requires the runner to deviate from the direct path to home plate and take said catcher out from behind?
Sounds like you're taking Option #2.
Quote from: GB Warrior on May 29, 2018, 12:22:17 PM
I think they'll be very active in conversations, but I think they wait until they have all available information before deciding to pull the trigger. I'm not sure they actually do - there are other spots I'd rather take a flier on. They'll see where they are with injuries - specifically Jimmy, but certainly others that come up. I also think they dip their pool in the middle infielder market (gee, wouldn't it be nice to have Scooter Gennett right now?). If healthy, Jimmy is as good a mid-season acquisition as you can hope for.
I also don't know that there's a top of the line guy available, and projecting that is made more difficult since the NL is such a logjam. You look at the guys that moved this offseason, and perhaps only Odorizzi has met or exceeded expectations, and he's certainly no ace. My best guess on who's available, and it's a whole lot of 'meh' if I'm the Brewers.
1. Cole Hamels - Stats look good on Memorial Day, but advanced stats suggest it's not sustainable.
2. Chris Archer - Rays asking a lot (weird given how they mailed it in on their other trades), sports a high 3s FIP. Teammate Snell also a possibility, but have to think they see him as part of the rebuild.
3. Pat Corbin - Could be a great rental candidate for the right team (not Milwaukee)
4. J.A. Happ/Stroman - Happ would be a cheaper rental. Stroman looked REALLY good coming into this year, but the wheels have fallen off. Stats aren't as bad as ERA makes it look.
5. Tyson Ross - another loaner who will cash in in UFA
If those are my options, I'd almost rather go for one more dominant reliever or sit tight. Bummer that the Reds wouldn't trade Iglesias within the division...
Don't forget James Shields!
Quote from: buckchuckler on May 29, 2018, 03:56:39 PM
Don't forget James Shields!
You kid (I think), but Big Game James has pitched very well this month.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 29, 2018, 04:02:56 PM
You kid (I think), but Big Game James has pitched very well this month.
Shields for Juan Soto. Hahn hasn't fleeced the Nats in a couple of months, seems due.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 29, 2018, 04:02:56 PM
You kid (I think), but Big Game James has pitched very well this month.
He sure has. I hope he is pitching himself onto trading radars.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on May 29, 2018, 04:18:09 PM
Shields for Juan Soto. Hahn hasn't fleeced the Nats in a couple of months, seems due.
Since he stole" Giolito? ;)
Even if Giolito is a bust, Lopez looks good and Dunning is progressing nicely. Without Giolito they could still have gotten 2 MLB pitchers. And Eaton has played what, 39 games for the Nats?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 29, 2018, 12:10:06 PM
A runner in that position can either...
1) Go in hard and try to break up the double play
or
2) Avoid the catcher and concede the out
If the runner is on your team, which would you prefer he do?
I've seen a torn achilles up close and personal. It is not enjoyable. I'll take option #2.
For those saying Joe would be angry if that happened to his team, the Pirates just slid past second base leading to the benches emptying.
It likely would have resulted in a double play if he challenged, however, he did not.
Like Maddon, I don't like the rule either, however, I still would have challenged to give my team the advantage.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 30, 2018, 07:34:10 PM
For those saying Joe would be angry if that happened to his team, the Pirates just slid past second base leading to the benches emptying.
It likely would have resulted in a double play if he challenged, however, he did not.
Like Maddon, I don't like the rule either, however, I still would have challenged to give my team the advantage.
So clearly the Cubs took exception...
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 30, 2018, 07:34:10 PM
For those saying Joe would be angry if that happened to his team, the Pirates just slid past second base leading to the benches emptying.
It likely would have resulted in a double play if he challenged, however, he did not.
Like Maddon, I don't like the rule either, however, I still would have challenged to give my team the advantage.
I believe sliding past the base is legal as long as you make contact with the base first.
Quote from: Jockey on May 30, 2018, 08:23:15 PM
I believe sliding past the base is legal as long as you make contact with the base first.
No, you must remain on the base in someway after passing the bag.
Quote from: Jockey on May 30, 2018, 08:23:15 PM
I believe sliding past the base is legal as long as you make contact with the base first.
only at home
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 30, 2018, 07:34:10 PM
For those saying Joe would be angry if that happened to his team, the Pirates just slid past second base leading to the benches emptying.
It likely would have resulted in a double play if he challenged, however, he did not.
Like Maddon, I don't like the rule either, however, I still would have challenged to give my team the advantage.
It could not have been challenged and changed to an interference call because Baez did not attempt a throw to first.
Baez didn't seem all that upset. He patted Musgrove on the hip as they were talking. It was far from being a heated exchange. The benches and bullpens were ready though ::)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 30, 2018, 08:34:32 PM
No, you must remain on the base in someway after passing the bag.
Not sure about that - if you find something else in the rule book, I would love to see it.
Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs
when the runner:
(1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before
reaching the base;
(2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot;
(3)
is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home
plate) after completion of the slide; and
(4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.
Seems that if he attempts to stay on the base, it is "allowed" to overslide.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on May 30, 2018, 07:34:10 PM
For those saying Joe would be angry if that happened to his team, the Pirates just slid past second base leading to the benches emptying.
It likely would have resulted in a double play if he challenged, however, he did not.
Like Maddon, I don't like the rule either, however, I still would have challenged to give my team the advantage.
you mean to tell me joe maddon was so indifferent about an entirely different play than the one where his player slid into the back of the catcher's leg while the catcher was completely exposed and completely blind to the slide that was coming towards him after the catcher had moved away from home plate specifically to avoid any kind of collision that joe didn't even bother to challenge a non-challengeable play?! well golly gee, obviously we were all wrong, joe didn't give a damn so much that he gave up the chance of getting an extra out in a one run game just to prove a point!
you can't make this crap up. chicago sports fans are the best.
Quote from: WithoutBias on May 30, 2018, 11:23:50 PM
you can't make this crap up. chicago sports fans are the best.
While TallTitan's take was fairly ridiculous, it's not like Chicago sports fans are any more biased than any others. I mean, do you even read what
Marquette fans post on these very boards after a game?
As for the actual topic...Here's a quote from Javy Baez: "I'm not saying it was a bad slide, but he just went hard, and I asked him `What was that about?' He said sorry. Conversation was over."
Joe Maddon: "I had no problem with the slide."
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 31, 2018, 08:24:09 AM
While TallTitan's take was fairly ridiculous, it's not like Chicago sports fans are any more biased than any others. I mean, do you even read what Marquette fans post on these very boards after a game?
As for the actual topic...Here's a quote from Javy Baez: "I'm not saying it was a bad slide, but he just went hard, and I asked him `What was that about?' He said sorry. Conversation was over."
Joe Maddon: "I had no problem with the slide."
Eh....I've lived across the country. While every sport fan is biased...Chicago sports fans do add a little something extra that many do not IMHO. Its something you only see in New York, LA, and Chicago. Everyone thinks their hometown is the best....but only those from NY, LA, and Chicago think their hometown is the best...and don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.
Random baseball question. Why hasn't the MLB put in place a rule of mandatory punishment for players that leave the bench? Every other sport has it.
Basketball: Automatic ejection for leaving the bench during the game.
football: Penalty and ejection with possible suspension for leaving the sideline.
Soccer: Automatic ejection for any fighting seen by ref. Ejection and suspension for leaving the bench.
Hockey: Even with fighting allowed, if you leave the bench to join a dust up automatic suspension.
A lot of these "brawls" start by players just walking toward each other jawing. Things then escalate into a 5 minute group hug with maybe a little shoving. If players know that punishment is coming for the slow walk/jawing that leads to most brawls, it would cut down the number of them. You would still get the one's where players run out swinging, because any player that does that knows he's getting a suspension and doesn't care anyways.
I realize that best case scenario (bases loaded, plus batter, plus on deck batter, plus 1st and 3rd base coach) the hitting team would still be outnumbered if all players were required to stay in the dugout, as opposed to all other sports where the numbers would be even, but it seems like every other sport has actively implemented rules to prevent fighting/brawls, while baseball has just kind of let them happen.
Obviously no easy fix/solution, but I'm interested to see people takes on putting more strict guidelines regarding preventing brawls.
Side question, has anyone from the bullpen ever done anything in a brawl, or do they just use it to get a little exercise going for a jog?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 31, 2018, 08:50:19 AM
Eh....I've lived across the country. While every sport fan is biased...Chicago sports fans do add a little something extra that many do not IMHO. Its something you only see in New York, LA, and Chicago. Everyone thinks their hometown is the best....but only those from NY, LA, and Chicago think their hometown is the best...and don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.
Yeah, there are no teams better than the Bears, Blackhawks, Fire, Bulls and White Sox.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 31, 2018, 09:07:38 AM
Random baseball question. Why hasn't the MLB put in place a rule of mandatory punishment for players that leave the bench? Every other sport has it.
Basketball: Automatic ejection for leaving the bench during the game.
football: Penalty and ejection with possible suspension for leaving the sideline.
Soccer: Automatic ejection for any fighting seen by ref. Ejection and suspension for leaving the bench.
Hockey: Even with fighting allowed, if you leave the bench to join a dust up automatic suspension.
A lot of these "brawls" start by players just walking toward each other jawing. Things then escalate into a 5 minute group hug with maybe a little shoving. If players know that punishment is coming for the slow walk/jawing that leads to most brawls, it would cut down the number of them. You would still get the one's where players run out swinging, because any player that does that knows he's getting a suspension and doesn't care anyways.
I realize that best case scenario (bases loaded, plus batter, plus on deck batter, plus 1st and 3rd base coach) the hitting team would still be outnumbered if all players were required to stay in the dugout, as opposed to all other sports where the numbers would be even, but it seems like every other sport has actively implemented rules to prevent fighting/brawls, while baseball has just kind of let them happen.
Obviously no easy fix/solution, but I'm interested to see people takes on putting more strict guidelines regarding preventing brawls.
Side question, has anyone from the bullpen ever done anything in a brawl, or do they just use it to get a little exercise going for a jog?
Having a suspension rule would all but eliminate charging the mound. If a player is going to go 1 on 9, I doubt he goes for it.
What baseball should really do is crack down on pitchers who intentionally throw at batters. The ol' unwritten rule which is far more dangerous than any slide.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 31, 2018, 09:17:58 AM
Having a suspension rule would all but eliminate charging the mound. If a player is going to go 1 on 9, I doubt he goes for it.
What baseball should really do is crack down on pitchers who intentionally throw at batters. The ol' unwritten rule which is far more dangerous than any slide.
It wouldn't necessarily have to be an automatic ejection/suspension rule. It could be settled with just a fine, the way the NBA is seeming to go in playoff games when dust up are more common. It just seems like nothing is being even attempted to prevent these preventable brawls, and I can't think the MLB thinks these brawls are good for baseball.
As for your second point about throwing at batter, 100% agree, although another one that is harder to enforce. I think a set in stone rule isn't necessarily the answer, but looking at these situation by situation and having consistent punishments is the way to go, although again, easy to say, harder to do.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 31, 2018, 08:50:19 AM
Eh....I've lived across the country. While every sport fan is biased...Chicago sports fans do add a little something extra that many do not IMHO. Its something you only see in New York, LA, and Chicago. Everyone thinks their hometown is the best....but only those from NY, LA, and Chicago think their hometown is the best...and don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.
(cough cough) Boston (cough cough)
Quote from: Pakuni on May 31, 2018, 10:16:05 AM
(cough cough) Boston (cough cough)
Eh, Boston fans are their own kind of obnoxious...along with Philly fans. I wasn't saying that NY/CHI/LA fans are bad fans, just that I've noticed some similarities between them.
For me its really easy to notice the Wisconsin scapegoating at sports. It's really easy to tell if someone is a Wisconsin sports fan on these boards, just look for people who constantly blame a single person for every action: IE Wades with Rowsey. (Unless of course its Derrick Wilson, then your allowed to use him as a scapegoat)
Same thing with that dude who dropped the onside kick against the seahawks. Wisconsin hated that man, not the fact the defense imploded, or that Rodgers failed to score a touchdown 4 (?) times while starting at the Seahawks 40.
Quote from: WithoutBias on May 30, 2018, 11:23:50 PM
joe didn't even bother to challenge a non-challengeable play?!
Ah didn't realize it was non-reviewable because no throw was attempted. Had Javy attempted a throw it would have been reviewable. Joe in his postgame still said he had no problems with the slide.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on May 31, 2018, 10:28:05 AM
For me its really easy to notice the Wisconsin scapegoating at sports. It's really easy to tell if someone is a Wisconsin sports fan on these boards, just look for people who constantly blame a single person for every action: IE Wades with Rowsey. (Unless of course its Derrick Wilson, then your allowed to use him as a scapegoat)
Same thing with that dude who dropped the onside kick against the seahawks. Wisconsin hated that man, not the fact the defense imploded, or that Rodgers failed to score a touchdown 4 (?) times while starting at the Seahawks 40.
I have Steve Bartman on line 1 for you.
I do give you credit for pointing out that you did that with Derrick Wilson... I also think the most famous Derrick basher is also from Chicago...
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on May 31, 2018, 10:28:05 AM
For me its really easy to notice the Wisconsin scapegoating at sports. It's really easy to tell if someone is a Wisconsin sports fan on these boards, just look for people who constantly blame a single person for every action: IE Wades with Rowsey. (Unless of course its Derrick Wilson, then your allowed to use him as a scapegoat)
Same thing with that dude who dropped the onside kick against the seahawks. Wisconsin hated that man, not the fact the defense imploded, or that Rodgers failed to score a touchdown 4 (?) times while starting at the Seahawks 40.
I think the only time I really made Rowsey into a "scapegoat" is when our fifth year senior scorer scored a total of 0 points over the course of 3 consecutive halves of basketball in the heat of Big East play.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 31, 2018, 09:07:38 AM
Random baseball question. Why hasn't the MLB put in place a rule of mandatory punishment for players that leave the bench? Every other sport has it.
Basketball: Automatic ejection for leaving the bench during the game.
football: Penalty and ejection with possible suspension for leaving the sideline.
Soccer: Automatic ejection for any fighting seen by ref. Ejection and suspension for leaving the bench.
Hockey: Even with fighting allowed, if you leave the bench to join a dust up automatic suspension.
A lot of these "brawls" start by players just walking toward each other jawing. Things then escalate into a 5 minute group hug with maybe a little shoving. If players know that punishment is coming for the slow walk/jawing that leads to most brawls, it would cut down the number of them. You would still get the one's where players run out swinging, because any player that does that knows he's getting a suspension and doesn't care anyways.
I realize that best case scenario (bases loaded, plus batter, plus on deck batter, plus 1st and 3rd base coach) the hitting team would still be outnumbered if all players were required to stay in the dugout, as opposed to all other sports where the numbers would be even, but it seems like every other sport has actively implemented rules to prevent fighting/brawls, while baseball has just kind of let them happen.
Obviously no easy fix/solution, but I'm interested to see people takes on putting more strict guidelines regarding preventing brawls.
Side question, has anyone from the bullpen ever done anything in a brawl, or do they just use it to get a little exercise going for a jog?
have you ever seen a baseball player throw a punch? 98% of them look like they are trying out for Celebrity Boxing.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 31, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
have you ever seen a baseball player throw a punch? 98% of them look like they are trying out for Celebrity Boxing.
Regardless of the fighting ability, I can't think that Manfred thinks that brawls are good for baseball, which begs the question why they haven't made some attempt to reduce the number of them? I'm not complaining because they're entertaining, but I would think that something would be attempted at some point.
Quote from: Its DJOver on May 31, 2018, 03:32:43 PM
Regardless of the fighting ability, I can't think that Manfred thinks that brawls are good for baseball, which begs the question why they haven't made some attempt to reduce the number of them? I'm not complaining because they're entertaining, but I would think that something would be attempted at some point.
I'm not sure why you assume Manfred, or anyone else, thinks that brawls are bad for baseball. Has anyone in the stands ever been seen rushing to the concession stand in the middle of a brawl? Or turning off their TV when a batter charges the mound?
They'll never admit it, and won't encourage it, but I don't think anyone really gets too worked up about the occasional brawl.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 31, 2018, 03:49:29 PM
I'm not sure why you assume Manfred, or anyone else, thinks that brawls are bad for baseball. Has anyone in the stands ever been seen rushing to the concession stand in the middle of a brawl? Or turning off their TV when a batter charges the mound?
They'll never admit it, and won't encourage it, but I don't think anyone really gets too worked up about the occasional brawl.
Agreed. Brawls are rare enough that there is a little interest when they occur.
I'd much rather they change the replay rule to give the manager only 20 seconds to challenge a play after its completion. Let the bang-bang plays where you need slow motion replay from 5 angles to determine if it was right go. Get the egregious ones corrected and keep the game moving. Hold the managers to one unsuccessful challenge per game and don't allow them to ask for another one. I turn games off when they are reviewing replays. They just kill the game's momentum. Hate them in all sports, especially in basketball where they take 5 minutes to decide if there is 6.2 or 6.7 seconds left on the clock.
Quote from: Jockey on May 30, 2018, 10:49:26 PM
Not sure about that - if you find something else in the rule book, I would love to see it.
Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs
when the runner:
(1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before
reaching the base;
(2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot;
(3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home
plate) after completion of the slide; and
(4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.
Seems that if he attempts to stay on the base, it is "allowed" to overslide.
Did you see actually see the play in question?
Quote from: WithoutBias on May 30, 2018, 11:23:50 PM
you mean to tell me joe maddon was so indifferent about an entirely different play than the one where his player slid into the back of the catcher's leg while the catcher was completely exposed and completely blind to the slide that was coming towards him after the catcher had moved away from home plate specifically to avoid any kind of collision that joe didn't even bother to challenge a non-challengeable play?! well golly gee, obviously we were all wrong, joe didn't give a damn so much that he gave up the chance of getting an extra out in a one run game just to prove a point!
you can't make this crap up. chicago sports fans are the best.
This is incredibly stupid. The Musgrove "slide" was extremely dangerous. Did you see it?
https://www.mlb.com/news/cubs-pirates-clear-benches-after-hard-slide/c-279047034
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 09:59:57 AM
This is incredibly stupid. The Musgrove "slide" was extremely dangerous. Did you see it?
This is being blown out of proportion. Both slides were studs down so there was no attempt to injure, both were bad slides, but you also have to look at players involved. That was Musgrove's second career time running the bases (not nearly as much experience breaking us double plays as Rizzo) and he apologized right away. Rizzo has had other occasions where he has had a slide deemed potentially dangerous so there was always going to be more scrutiny involving him. Maddon's constant whining certainly did not help the situation.
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 01, 2018, 10:08:41 AM
That was Musgrove's second career time running the bases (not nearly as much experience breaking us double plays as Rizzo) and he apologized right away.
This quote from Musgrove goes against everything you said. He knew exactly what he was doing and he didn't apologize.
"I wasn't trying to hurt [Baez] by any means, but I was trying to go in hard like their guy did, so he should've got out of the way, I guess."
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 01, 2018, 10:08:41 AM
This is being blown out of proportion. Both slides were studs down so there was no attempt to injure, both were bad slides, but you also have to look at players involved. That was Musgrove's second career time running the bases (not nearly as much experience breaking us double plays as Rizzo) and he apologized right away. Rizzo has had other occasions where he has had a slide deemed potentially dangerous so there was always going to be more scrutiny involving him. Maddon's constant whining certainly did not help the situation.
Maddon didn't whine about the Musgrove slide. He was laughing in the aftermath.
As you said, Musgrove probably doesn't have a lot of experience running the bases and I don't think there was any intent to injure there. At the same time it certainly was a dangerous slide and if the throw had come in later that could have been a serious injury for Baez. Musgrove came in high, hard, and late and had no chance whatsoever to stay on the base.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 10:21:28 AM
Maddon didn't whine about the Musgrove slide. He was laughing in the aftermath.
As you said, Musgrove probably doesn't have a lot of experience running the bases and I don't think there was any intent to injure there. At the same time it certainly was a dangerous slide and if the throw had come in later that could have been a serious injury for Baez. Musgrove came in high, hard, and late and had no chance whatsoever to stay on the base.
Agree that both slides were bad.
My whole thing with Maddon is his whole "I used to play so I know the rules better than you" shtick he has. The whole thing after the Diaz play where he said that catchers used to get hit harder and need to have an internal clock similar to a QB because of that is stupid. Diaz clearly did enough to move out of the way and avoid Rizzo. Baseball isn't played the same way it was when he was playing. It's constantly changing, now faster than ever.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 01, 2018, 10:19:31 AM
This quote from Musgrove goes against everything you said. He knew exactly what he was doing and he didn't apologize.
"I wasn't trying to hurt [Baez] by any means, but I was trying to go in hard like their guy did, so he should've got out of the way, I guess."
This quote from Baez goes against everything you said. He did in fact apologize
"I asked him 'what was that about' he said sorry, conversation was over."
Baez even continues that the whole thing was blown out of proportion. "everybody came out because they had too"
And how does the fact that he said he was trying to break up the DP go against the
fact that it was his second career time running the bases.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 09:58:38 AM
Did you see actually see the play in question?
Nope. I was speaking generally. I have seen guys slur too late/hard and end up sliding past the base many, many times. Sometimes they get tagged out; sometimes they get back in time.
But it's not illegal to slide past the base.
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 01, 2018, 10:34:06 AM
Agree that both slides were bad.
My whole thing with Maddon is his whole "I used to play so I know the rules better than you" shtick he has. The whole thing after the Diaz play where he said that catchers used to get hit harder and need to have an internal clock similar to a QB because of that is stupid. Diaz clearly did enough to move out of the way and avoid Rizzo. Baseball isn't played the same way it was when he was playing. It's constantly changing, now faster than ever.
Maddon hates the slide interference rules. Period. He thinks it's stupid to have to rely on an upmire's judgment on intent on a bang-bang play.
Let's take the Rizzo play which I agree with Torre after watching in slo-mo. Rizzo slid toward and covered the plate with his slide. The umps and the reviewers agreed. The problem was Rizzo hooking the catcher.
The rule is now becoming the NFL catch ruling where you have to be a lawyer to determine the outcome. Maddon hates the process and always will get ejected over it to make his statement known.
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 01, 2018, 10:52:38 AM
This quote from Baez goes against everything you said. He did in fact apologize
"I asked him 'what was that about' he said sorry, conversation was over."
Baez even continues that the whole thing was blown out of proportion. "everybody came out because they had too"
And how does the fact that he said he was trying to break up the DP go against the fact that it was his second career time running the bases.
You are making it sound like because it was his second time on the bases he didn't know what he was doing. He flat out said he went in hard on purpose.
You can't vilify Rizzo and then defend Musgrove.
Quote from: Jockey on June 01, 2018, 11:37:30 AM
Nope. I was speaking generally. I have seen guys slur too late/hard and end up sliding past the base many, many times. Sometimes they get tagged out; sometimes they get back in time.
But it's not illegal to slide past the base.
According to the rule, if Baez would have attempted a throw in that instance, they would have gotten the double play because of the slide and him going past the base.
Quote from: Jockey on June 01, 2018, 11:37:30 AM
But it's not illegal to slide past the base.
It is illegal to slide past the base if you make no effort to stay on it. It's part 3 of the rule you quoted.
Musgrove made no effort to stay on the bag.
Rizzos slide was clearly to break up the double play. Was probably actually illegal as well.
But can someone please tell me what the Sam hell is this argument about it being his second time on the basepath? What did he forget how to slide after playing in 9000 other games before his job career? What a dumb argument
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 01, 2018, 11:42:35 AM
You are making it sound like because it was his second time on the bases he didn't know what he was doing. He flat out said he went in hard on purpose.
You can't vilify Rizzo and then defend Musgrove.
Please re-read my posts, I said both slides were bad.
My first post that you said was flat out wrong had two points. 1.) That Musgrove has far less experience running the bases than Rizzo does. This is an indisputable fact. 2.) That Musgrove apologized, which Baez said he did. Both points are true so I'm not sure where you are taking exception?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 01, 2018, 11:48:50 AM
Rizzos slide was clearly to break up the double play. Was probably actually illegal as well.
But can someone please tell me what the Sam hell is this argument about it being his second time on the basepath? What did he forget how to slide after playing in 9000 other games before his job career? What a dumb argument
He came up through an AL system so I'm not sure where you're getting 9000 from. The point is when you are in a position to do something everyday (Rizzo gets on base a lot so he has a lot of potential opportunities to break up DP's) you're going to be a lot better at it than someone who hasn't done it in 7 years (Musgrove drafted into an Al system in 2011).
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 09:59:57 AM
This is incredibly stupid. The Musgrove "slide" was extremely dangerous. Did you see it?
https://www.mlb.com/news/cubs-pirates-clear-benches-after-hard-slide/c-279047034
Putting slide in quotes and calling this one dangerous while saying Rizzo's was just fine and dandy is ridiculous.
The Pirates were clearly responding to what Rizzo did and maybe even in some way how Maddon handled it (blaming Diaz...). You didn't have to be a prophet to see this coming.
This, in some degree, in also on the umpires. If they could have handled the first play, which seemed obvious to me, it would have probably prevented this whole escalation. Though, maybe not.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 01, 2018, 12:01:42 PM
Putting slide in quotes and calling this one dangerous while saying Rizzo's was just fine and dandy is ridiculous.
The Pirates were clearly responding to what Rizzo did and maybe even in some way how Maddon handled it (blaming Diaz...). You didn't have to be a prophet to see this coming.
This, in some degree, in also on the umpires. If they could have handled the first play, which seemed obvious to me, it would have probably prevented this whole escalation. Though, maybe not.
I didn't say Rizzo's slide was "fine and dandy" after considering it more. I said it wasn't dirty. Those are two different things.
Clint Hurdle is a complete turd so the Pirates' response was not unexpected.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 12:58:12 PM
I didn't say Rizzo's slide was "fine and dandy" after considering it more. I said it wasn't dirty. Those are two different things.
Clint Hurdle is a complete turd so the Pirates' response was not unexpected.
Not sure you ever said, or implied that it wasn't. You called comments about it ridiculous or some such.
If you did, sorry I must have missed it.
And yeah, its a Clint Hurdle issue... ::)
Neither slide was dirty. Both were simply players trying to prevent a double play, which they both did.
Nothing to see here.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 01, 2018, 02:14:29 PM
Not sure you ever said, or implied that it wasn't. You called comments about it ridiculous or some such.
If you did, sorry I must have missed it.
And yeah, its a Clint Hurdle issue... ::)
The Pirates have a history will retaliation, especially throwing at people, under Hurdle. So how is that not reflective of him?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 09:59:57 AM
This is incredibly stupid. The Musgrove "slide" was extremely dangerous. Did you see it?
https://www.mlb.com/news/cubs-pirates-clear-benches-after-hard-slide/c-279047034
totally agree. a chicago sports fan decided to try to make the point that his team was so much bigger than the panzies elsewhere that his manager refused to challenge a play that would've netted him a second out in the inning and taken a baserunner off of first base in a one run game. what a theory. totally goes to show everyone here!
oh wait, the play wasn't even reviewable. LOL!
incredibly stupid indeed. but totally par for the course for cubs fans.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 07:03:32 PM
totally agree. a chicago sports fan decided to try to make the point that his team was so much bigger than the panzies elsewhere that his manager refused to challenge a play that would've netted him a second out in the inning and taken a baserunner off of first base in a one run game. what a theory. totally goes to show everyone here!
oh wait, the play wasn't even reviewable. LOL!
incredibly stupid indeed. but totally par for the course for cubs fans.
Hey dummy - it was a crew chief review so Maddon didn't need to challenge.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 09:42:34 PM
Hey dummy - it was a crew chief review so Maddon didn't need to challenge.
hey dummy - the play was never reviewed because it is quite literally not a reviewable play. this isn't that hard to understand, i really don't get how dumb chicago sports fans get when they go out of their way to try and defend their team, when in reality nothing needed to be defended.
rizzo made a hard dirty slide that the mlb admitted they ruled incorrectly. musgrove made a hard slide in return but at least the fielder could see it coming. the umps had the ability to review one of the plays and didn't have the ability to review the other.
you don't have to go out of your way to make up stupid arguments to make your team look "tougher" than they are. maddon didn't challenge the play not because he wanted to make a point that, "hey, our guy did nothing wrong, just hard baseball, and we have no issue with other teams playing hard too!" like tt claims. maddon didn't challenge the play because he literally could not challenge the play.
this stuff is hysterical!
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 10:02:01 PM
hey dummy - the play was never reviewed because it is quite literally not a reviewable play. this isn't that hard to understand, i really don't get how dumb chicago sports fans get when they go out of their way to try and defend their team, when in reality nothing needed to be defended.
rizzo made a hard dirty slide that the mlb admitted they ruled incorrectly. musgrove made a hard slide in return but at least the fielder could see it coming. the umps had the ability to review one of the plays and didn't have the ability to review the other.
you don't have to go out of your way to make up stupid arguments to make your team look "tougher" than they are. maddon didn't challenge the play not because he wanted to make a point that, "hey, our guy did nothing wrong, just hard baseball, and we have no issue with other teams playing hard too!" like tt claims. maddon didn't challenge the play because he literally could not challenge the play.
this stuff is hysterical!
For the record the reason he couldn't challenge play was because a throw wasn't attempted. This explaination was given to the media after my initial post.
Are you saying before the play occurred, you knew it couldn't be challenged because no throw was made? If so you are more knowledgeable than the umps on the field who had to check with New York, the broadcasters for both teams, and the coaching staffs.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 01, 2018, 10:08:09 PM
For the record the reason he couldn't challenge play was because a throw wasn't attempted. This explaination was given to the media after my initial post.
Are you saying before the play occurred, you knew it couldn't be challenged because no throw was made? If so you are more knowledgeable than the umps on the field who had to check with New York, the broadcasters for both teams, and the coaching staffs.
"the explanation was given to the media after my initial post?" what? the explanation was given during the broadcast as this played out.
but what you're now saying is that joe wanted to challenge but was told he couldn't? so i guess your narrative that joe not challenging proved he would've had no problem with rizzo's slide if he was in the other dugout goes out the window?
hmmm...
The explaination was not given as this played out. It was given after the umpires checked with New York and the decision was relayed to the media booths.
I posted before it was relayed.
No, what I am saying is even if Joe could have challeneged he wouldn't have. Which I disagree with because it would have hurt his team not to challenge.
Go White Sox! The kids can play!
I feel gross.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 10:02:01 PM
hey dummy - the play was never reviewed because it is quite literally not a reviewable play. this isn't that hard to understand, i really don't get how dumb chicago sports fans get when they go out of their way to try and defend their team, when in reality nothing needed to be defended.
rizzo made a hard dirty slide that the mlb admitted they ruled incorrectly. musgrove made a hard slide in return but at least the fielder could see it coming. the umps had the ability to review one of the plays and didn't have the ability to review the other.
you don't have to go out of your way to make up stupid arguments to make your team look "tougher" than they are. maddon didn't challenge the play not because he wanted to make a point that, "hey, our guy did nothing wrong, just hard baseball, and we have no issue with other teams playing hard too!" like tt claims. maddon didn't challenge the play because he literally could not challenge the play.
this stuff is hysterical!
Nice inferiority complex.
After Musgrove's slide why did the umpires get the headphones on and communicate with the replay office for multiple minutes?
Were you watching the game as it played out live?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 10:24:59 PM
Go White Sox! The kids can play!
I feel gross.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 01, 2018, 10:27:08 PM
White Sox Pride!
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Nice inferiority complex.
"i'm a cubs fan and i'm going to cheer for the white sox against the brewers! all while telling brewers fans they're the ones with an inferiority complex!"
oh the irony!
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 10:32:13 PM
"i'm a cubs fan and i'm going to cheer for the white sox against the brewers! all while telling brewers fans they're the ones with an inferiority complex!"
oh the irony!
I actually enjoy the White Sox.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Nice inferiority complex.
After Musgrove's slide why did the umpires get the headphones on and communicate with the replay office for multiple minutes?
Were you watching the game as it played out live?
so, for the record, you're saying the play was reviewed? lol! jesus christ cubs fans are delusional.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 01, 2018, 10:18:28 PM
The explaination was not given as this played out. It was given after the umpires checked with New York and the decision was relayed to the media booths.
I posted before it was relayed.
No, what I am saying is even if Joe could have challeneged he wouldn't have. Which I disagree with because it would have hurt his team not to challenge.
oh. you know joe was not going to challenge the play...just because you know. lol. the umpires just wanted to go to the headsets to talk to the nyc offices...just for the fun of it. joe showed no indication that he wanted to challenge the play, the umps just wanted to clarify that joe couldn't challenge a play that joe did not want to challenge.
LOL!
goodness. it just keeps getting better.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 10:32:13 PM
"i'm a cubs fan and i'm going to cheer for the white sox against the brewers! all while telling brewers fans they're the ones with an inferiority complex!"
oh the irony!
You're not a smart person, huh?
The Brewers have been playing great so rooting against them, regardless of who they're playing, seems to make sense.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 10:35:52 PM
so, for the record, you're saying the play was reviewed? lol! jesus christ cubs fans are delusional.
oh. you know joe was not going to challenge the play...just because you know. lol. the umpires just wanted to go to the headsets to talk to the nyc offices...just for the fun of it. joe showed no indication that he wanted to challenge the play, the umps just wanted to clarify that joe couldn't challenge a play that joe did not want to challenge.
LOL!
goodness. it just keeps getting better.
Comprehension not a strength of yours, huh?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 10:44:57 PM
You're not a smart person, huh?
The Brewers have been playing great so rooting against them, regardless of who they're playing, seems to make sense.
like i said, cubs fans talking about the brewers fans having an inferiority complex while cheering on the white sox. not ironic at all i guess. and i'm the one who's not a smart person. lol.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 10:46:07 PM
Comprehension not a strength of yours, huh?
please, explain to me what i'm misunderstanding here mr. all knowing blue man group.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 10:58:17 PM
like i said, cubs fans talking about the brewers fans having an inferiority complex while cheering on the white sox. not ironic at all i guess. and i'm the one who's not a smart person. lol.
please, explain to me what i'm misunderstanding here mr. all knowing blue man group.
How is rooting against the team currently in first place an example of an inferiority complex? I've taken no shots at the Brewers or Brewers fans in this exchange. Every inane post of yours is railing at Cubs fans.
I also want Pittsburgh to play well against the Cards this weekend. It's kind of how it works when you want to win the division.
I'll ask again - were you watching the game Tuesday during the play and the aftermath?
Good guys wear black! And hopefully pick 1-1 in 2019!
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 01, 2018, 11:11:07 PM
How is rooting against the team currently in first place an example of an inferiority complex? I've taken no shots at the Brewers or Brewers fans in this exchange. Every inane post of yours is railing at Cubs fans.
I also want Pittsburgh to play well against the Cards this weekend. It's kind of how it works when you want to win the division.
I'll ask again - were you watching the game Tuesday during the play and the aftermath?
...right. you should probably figure out what an inferiority complex is.
it's certainly not laughing at a fanbase that flaunts its manager not challenging an unreviewable baseball play as proof that their manager has no issue with hard slides lol. and then pretending that they know joe wouldn't have challenged the play just because, well, we just know, because joe was totally fine with the slide and would give up an out to prove it if he had to. hilarious.
what does watching the game live have anything to do with anything? lol. the reaching cubs fans do is so good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE3ybYO9aXQ
here you go bud. the umpires went to the headsets to see if the play was reviewable. it wasn't, and the umps went to the cubs dugout to tell joe maddon that. but hey, tt says joe wouldn't have reviewed the play, so my guess is the pirates wanted to challenge the play and get another out for themselves there and the umps were just notifying good guy joe that the delay was to see if the pirates could challenge the play and they cannot, so joe happily leave the runner at first with one out.
so good.
Quote from: MUDish on June 01, 2018, 11:41:13 PM
Good guys wear black! And hopefully pick 1-1 in 2019!
Sadly I'm betting on 3. Royals and Orioles go 1-2.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 01, 2018, 11:50:44 PM
...right. you should probably figure out what an inferiority complex is.
it's certainly not laughing at a fanbase that flaunts its manager not challenging an unreviewable baseball play as proof that their manager has no issue with hard slides lol. and then pretending that they know joe wouldn't have challenged the play just because, well, we just know, because joe was totally fine with the slide and would give up an out to prove it if he had to. hilarious.
what does watching the game live have anything to do with anything? lol. the reaching cubs fans do is so good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE3ybYO9aXQ
here you go bud. the umpires went to the headsets to see if the play was reviewable. it wasn't, and the umps went to the cubs dugout to tell joe maddon that. but hey, tt says joe wouldn't have reviewed the play, so my guess is the pirates wanted to challenge the play and get another out for themselves there and the umps were just notifying good guy joe that the delay was to see if the pirates could challenge the play and they cannot, so joe happily leave the runner at first with one out.
so good.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/56T5rq8SNiDYs/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 02, 2018, 01:46:45 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/56T5rq8SNiDYs/giphy.gif)
right. when you have no rebuttal just go talking about how stupid the other person is. lol. i remember the second grade.
Cub-Brewer conversations are the worst.
On a better note I love the uniforms going on in the Sox-Brewer game.
And on a much better note
https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/video/farquhar-tosses-first-pitch/c-2107810183?tid=268772510
On the topic of dirty slides, that Odor slide is about as bad as they come. No excuse for having your studs up like that.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 02, 2018, 03:57:06 PM
Issue?
issue? don't think so...?
just shocking that someone who is a cubs and packers fan would "enjoy" the white sox when it's convenient.
i do love that it started as a discussion with tt then, as predictable as the sun rising in the east, blue man heard someone talking bad about the cubs and came fast and furious to the rescue. then shockingly the last of the amigos comes crawling in responding about how he's not at fault, despite not having been part of the discussion so he was never accused of anything.
but it's cute that you all have each other's backs on an internet forum.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 02, 2018, 05:21:12 PM
issue? don't think so...?
just shocking that someone who is a cubs and packers fan would "enjoy" the white sox when it's convenient.
i do love that it started as a discussion with tt then, as predictable as the sun rising in the east, blue man heard someone talking bad about the cubs and came fast and furious to the rescue. then shockingly the last of the amigos comes crawling in responding about how he's not at fault, despite not having been part of the discussion so he was never accused of anything.
but it's cute that you all have each other's backs on an internet forum.
Thanks, just wondering what your issue was. Got it now. You are very complex.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 02, 2018, 06:53:59 PM
Thanks, just wondering what your issue was. Got it now. You are very complex.
Very.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 02, 2018, 08:10:20 PM
Very.
And for all the complexity, I don't think you have added a single baseball point, please try to keep the name calling and Cubs/Brewers pissing match stuff in the designated pissing match thread.
And deGrom is so good. I have to wonder if the Mets continue to slide, if he will be made available. He is the best guy they have had and would probably return a McDuck money bin type of return. I have to believe he would be very hard to part with though if you're the Mets.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 02, 2018, 09:42:55 PM
And for all the complexity, I don't think you have added a single baseball point, please try to keep the name calling and Cubs/Brewers pissing match stuff in the designated pissing match thread.
And deGrom is so good. I have to wonder if the Mets continue to slide, if he will be made available. He is the best guy they have had and would probably return a McDuck money bin type of return. I have to believe he would be very hard to part with though if you're the Mets.
He's nasty. His changeup down and in to righties is something else.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 02, 2018, 05:21:12 PM
issue? don't think so...?
just shocking that someone who is a cubs and packers fan would "enjoy" the white sox when it's convenient.
i do love that it started as a discussion with tt then, as predictable as the sun rising in the east, blue man heard someone talking bad about the cubs and came fast and furious to the rescue. then shockingly the last of the amigos comes crawling in responding about how he's not at fault, despite not having been part of the discussion so he was never accused of anything.
but it's cute that you all have each other's backs on an internet forum.
I'm confused. Your mad because a fan of the cubs is rooting for the Sox when the brewers are in first and the Sox are irrelevant?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 03, 2018, 12:09:22 AM
I'm confused. Your mad because a fan of the cubs is rooting for the Sox when the brewers are in first and the Sox are irrelevant?
Who's mad?
I must have a inferiority complex with the Brewers, Cardinals, and Pirates because I root for whoever is playing them. Reds are harmless. Hell I even root for teams with lower records to beat teams with higher records to possibly help the Cubs get home field advantage in the playoffs.
You can't tell me you don't want the Mets to beat the Cubs.
on june 3? with over 100 games left in the season? yeah...no. i couldn't care less who's winning baseball games other than the brewers.
but sure. feel free to root for your cross town rival and in the same breath talk about the team they're playing against having an inferiority complex.
continues to be good stuff here.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 03, 2018, 11:17:34 AM
on june 3? with over 100 games left in the season? yeah...no. i couldn't care less who's winning baseball games other than the brewers.
but sure. feel free to root for your cross town rival and in the same breath talk about the team they're playing against having an inferiority complex.
continues to be good stuff here.
You do realize a win on June 3 is equal to a win on September 29?
So you'd be fine if the Cubs rattled off 12 straight wins because it's only June?
Personally, I'd prefer the Brewers not to win 12 straight in June myself.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 03, 2018, 11:54:37 AM
You do realize a win on June 3 is equal to a win on September 29?
So you'd be fine if the Cubs rattled off 12 straight wins because it's only June?
Personally, I'd prefer the Brewers not to win 12 straight in June myself.
yeah...i couldn't care less. but i'm just a brewers fan with an inferiority complex and you're a cubs fan who roots for the white sox so what so i know?
and you're someone who was literally sitting around with a post already typed up ready to submit the second the pirates retaliated praising joe for how little he cared about hard slides and couldn't wait the 3 minutes it took for the umps to clear up what happened and think that the umps had to go to the headsets to determine that a play that joe didn't want to challenge was not a challengeable play.
talk about pace of play. now umps are going to start alerting managers that they cannot challenge plays that they don't want challenged, apparently.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 03, 2018, 11:54:37 AM
You do realize a win on June 3 is equal to a win on September 29?
So you'd be fine if the Cubs rattled off 12 straight wins because it's only June?
Personally, I'd prefer the Brewers not to win 12 straight in June myself.
It's not worth engaging him. In addition to being "without bias" he's also lacking reason, common sense, and logic.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 03, 2018, 02:21:43 PM
It's not worth engaging him. In addition to being "without bias" he's also lacking reason, common sense, and logic.
just so i have this clear from the voice of reason, common sense, and logic, you think the umps spent a number of minutes with the headsets on to find out if the play tt brought up was reviewable despite the fact that joe maddon, as reported by tt, did NOT want to challenge the play? just want to get that cleared up for me by someone who is nothing but reasonable and logical. have brought this up a number of times but instead of getting an answer people just turn to "you're stupid and illogical!"
the irony never stops.
ps have already addressed the name. it's a 30 for 30 episode. you'll catch up someday.
I think you'll find that baseball fans in Chicago don't really get caught up in the cross town thing.
I like watching baseball and the White Sox are a very fun group now. I like that Hahn was finally given full control. Big Hahn fan.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 03, 2018, 02:25:50 PM
just so i have this clear from the voice of reason, common sense, and logic, you think the umps spent a number of minutes with the headsets on to find out if the play tt brought up was reviewable despite the fact that joe maddon, as reported by tt, did NOT want to challenge the play? just want to get that cleared up for me by someone who is nothing but reasonable and logical. have brought this up a number of times but instead of getting an answer people just turn to "you're stupid and illogical!"
the irony never stops.
ps have already addressed the name. it's a 30 for 30 episode. you'll catch up someday.
Why did the umps spend several minutes on headsets with the rules/replay center?
Losing 2 of 3 to the White Sox. I guess those losses don't matter though since it is only early June.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 03, 2018, 04:05:49 PM
Why did the umps spend several minutes on headsets with the rules/replay center?
Losing 2 of 3 to the White Sox. I guess those losses don't matter though since it is only early June.
to find out if the play was reviewable. lol. how many times do you need to be told this? but joe didn't want to challenge, according to tt and the cubs fans. just consulted with ny to see if it was reviewable despite nobody wanting to challenge the play. makes a lot of sense right? but you can keep dodging the question if you'd like. don't have an answer so just flip it into a different question that has been answered multiple times. for someone who pretends to have some kind of superior inteligence you sure do go out of your way to make yourself look stupid.
i'll bet this series isn't the difference between the brewers winning the nl central. put your money where your mouth is oh voice of reason. glad you could get off to some little brother losses this weekend though. you sure were quick to pull that trigger for someone who pretends that the other side of the argument is the one who has the complex. literally seconds after the last out lol. pins n needles baby. pins n needles.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 03, 2018, 04:15:32 PM
to find out if the play was reviewable. lol. how many times do you need to be told this? but joe didn't want to challenge, according to tt and the cubs fans. just consulted with ny to see if it was reviewable despite nobody wanting to challenge the play. makes a lot of sense right? but you can keep dodging the question if you'd like. don't have an answer so just flip it into a different question that has been answered multiple times. for someone who pretends to have some kind of superior inteligence you sure do go out of your way to make yourself look stupid.
i'll bet this series isn't the difference between the brewers winning the nl central. put your money where your mouth is oh voice of reason. glad you could get off to some little brother losses this weekend though. you sure were quick to pull that trigger for someone who pretends that the other side of the argument is the one who has the complex. literally seconds after the last out lol. pins n needles baby. pins n needles.
I never said Maddon wouldn't have challenged if it was reviewable. He clearly would have.
Seems strange to generalize for a fan base based on what a poster or two have said.
We only two games back. Brewers feeling some heat on their heals.
Quote from: WarriorDad on June 03, 2018, 08:13:15 PM
We only two games back. Brewers feeling some heat on their heals.
I don't think anyone's feeling any heat with over 100 games left in the season.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 03, 2018, 08:16:16 PM
I don't think anyone's feeling any heat with over 100 games left in the season.
Bingo.
The only one feeling heat is WithoutBias' autocorrect.
Happy draft day everyone.
Hoping the Sox can snag one of Bohm or Madrigal. Singer seems a likely pick also.
But most importantly I just really hope that Seth Beer goes to the Brewers. Seems like a match made in heaven.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 04, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
But most importantly I just really hope that Seth Beer goes to the Brewers. Seems like a match made in heaven.
The fact that Nick Bierbrodt never played for Milwaukee is still a travesty.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bierbni01.shtml
(https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bierbni01.shtml)
Quote from: CTWarrior on May 23, 2018, 10:28:33 AM
Rare occurrence this late in the season, the Yankees are in first place but are a half game behind the Red Sox.
Yankees have a .689 winning percentage and the Red Sox have a .688 winning percentage, so if the season ended today the Yankees would win the division. However, the Red Sox have played 3 more games and won two of them, so the Yankees are a half game behind the Red Sox.
Yanks have been rained out three more times so now the Red Sox have played 6 more games than the Yankees. Yanks are in first place despite being a full game behind the Red Sox now.
Yankees 37-17 .685 1
Red Sox 41-19 .683 -
This is probably only curious to me, but I was trying to figure out the latest in the season this occurred without having to look at daily standings. If the Yankees split or get swept today it will end. If they sweep, however, they will be in first place though both teams will be 0 games out.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 04, 2018, 09:47:35 AM
Yanks have been rained out three more times so now the Red Sox have played 6 more games than the Yankees. Yanks are in first place despite being a full game behind the Red Sox now.
Yankees 37-17 .685 1
Red Sox 41-19 .683 -
This is probably only curious to me, but I was trying to figure out the latest in the season this occurred without having to look at daily standings. If the Yankees split or get swept today it will end. If they sweep, however, they will be in first place though both teams will be 0 games out.
It is crazy and it points to how much bad weather teams have had to deal with this year.
Quote from: jsglow on June 04, 2018, 09:54:36 AM
It is crazy and it points to how much bad weather teams have had to deal with this year.
This is where Miller Park is a major advantage for the Brewers. Not just the temperature and conditions in April and May, but the rain outs. The Crew has three games in hand on both the Cubs and Cards. That takes a toll in the dog days to not have an off day.
Javy Baez may not be the best baseball player but might be the most exciting player I have ever seen. Between the sliding, tagging, and defense you never know what you are going to see him do next.
Yesterday he stole home again adding to his already impressive highlight reel.
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003349408476467201 (https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003349408476467201)
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 04, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
Happy draft day everyone.
Hoping the Sox can snag one of Bohm or Madrigal. Singer seems a likely pick also.
But most importantly I just really hope that Seth Beer goes to the Brewers. Seems like a match made in heaven.
Late word has the Sox leaning toward Singer, especially if Madrigal is off the board.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 04, 2018, 10:47:21 AM
Late word has the Sox leaning toward Singer, especially if Madrigal is off the board.
I'd go with Madrigal if available mostly because I'm always hesitant on pitchers.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 04, 2018, 10:59:13 AM
I'd go with Madrigal if available mostly because I'm always hesitant on pitchers.
I tend to agree, but I do like Singer quite a bit, so either is OK with me.
I'm just happy every time they don't draft a "toolsy" athlete who also excels at football.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 04, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
Happy draft day everyone.
Hoping the Sox can snag one of Bohm or Madrigal. Singer seems a likely pick also.
But most importantly I just really hope that Seth Beer goes to the Brewers. Seems like a match made in heaven.
The headline would write itself:
Brewers Draft Beer
Quote from: Pakuni on June 04, 2018, 11:07:07 AM
I tend to agree, but I do like Singer quite a bit, so either is OK with me.
I'm just happy every time they don't draft a "toolsy" athlete who also excels at football.
Freaking Jared Mitchell, two picks before Trout.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 04, 2018, 10:59:13 AM
I'd go with Madrigal if available mostly because I'm always hesitant on pitchers.
I tend to lean towards pitching, because, well you can never have enough. But even having said that I would prefer Madrigal or Bohm. I think Singer is good, but I don't know if he has the ace stuff. Madrigal lacks power but is an ideal fit for the top of any lineup and Bohm brings some of the best power in the draft.
I have to say, I don't love how this draft class has shaped up for the Sox. I think there could be an argument for them to take any guy in the top 10-12. And I think this is a likely draft where the guy that ends up the best player is taken in the middle of the first round.
I would really like for he Sox to take Shane McLanahan, but it doesn't look like he is getting any buzz at the top of the draft, but lefties that throw 100 with plus sliders can be a pretty dangerous. I think the Sox once had a guy like that.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 04, 2018, 11:39:55 AM
I would really like for he Sox to take Shane McLanahan, but it doesn't look like he is getting any buzz at the top of the draft, but lefties that throw 100 with plus sliders can be a pretty dangerous. I think the Sox once had a guy like that.
I watched him pitch over the weekend and was thoroughly unimpressed. 100 pitches in only 5 innings, walked four, only struck out three, uncorked two wild pitches. The upside is there, but the Sox have enough young talented arms in the system that can't locate (looking at you, Giolito and Fullmer).
I don't know if Singer needs to be an ace. I'd be happy with a solid #2 starter. I see him as having a very high floor, and perhaps more upside than he's given credit for (perhaps the downside of being seen as a top 5 pick for three years is people tend to get nitpicky).
That said, Madrigal would be an excellent choice and I generally like the philosophy of position players early, pitchers late.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 04, 2018, 12:06:54 PM
I watched him pitch over the weekend and was thoroughly unimpressed. 100 pitches in only 5 innings, walked four, only struck out three, uncorked two wild pitches. The upside is there, but the Sox have enough young talented arms in the system that can't locate (looking at you, Giolito and Fullmer).
I don't know if Singer needs to be an ace. I'd be happy with a solid #2 starter. I see him as having a very high floor, and perhaps more upside than he's given credit for (perhaps the downside of being seen as a top 5 pick for three years is people tend to get nitpicky).
That said, Madrigal would be an excellent choice and I generally like the philosophy of position players early, pitchers late.
Yeah, I get it. The downside is there. I also thinking fixing him may play right in the the Sox player development strengths. The knocks against him are the same ones there were against Alec Hansen.
And you are right about Singer not needing to be an ace. The Sox have plenty of guys with TOR potential in Rodon, Kopech, Hansen, Cease and Dunning. Singer seems to certainly be at least that 3/4 guy in the rotation which is valuable. I kind of hope the balance a little more than last year when they were very position player (and college position player) heavy. If they go hitter at 4, I hope they go with someone like Griffin Roberts in the 2nd round, and if they go Singer, then I hope they can get DeSadas, Alek Thomas or Beer in round 2.
Quote from: Lazar's Canadian Bacon Headband on June 04, 2018, 11:22:34 AM
The headline would write itself:
Brewers Draft Beer
Hahaha...and when they eventually release him: "Brewers Can Beer".
Quote from: BrewCity83 on June 04, 2018, 12:31:07 PM
Hahaha...and when they eventually release him: "Brewers Can Beer".
Nice. Another possible headline:
Late Beer Run Clinches World Series
Singer reminds me too much of Fulmer. I'd take Bohm.
Quote from: MUDish on June 04, 2018, 12:49:04 PM
Singer reminds me too much of Fulmer. I'd take Bohm.
I don't think Bohm makes it to the Sox. If he does, he'd be my pick.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 04, 2018, 12:53:21 PM
I don't think Bohm makes it to the Sox. If he does, he'd be my pick.
It would probably take Mize falling to Philly to make this happen, you're right. MLB Draft certainly more unique with the slotting process.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 04, 2018, 10:37:21 AM
Javy Baez may not be the best baseball player but might be the most exciting player I have ever seen. Between the sliding, tagging, and defense you never know what you are going to see him do next.
Yesterday he stole home again adding to his already impressive highlight reel.
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003349408476467201 (https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003349408476467201)
Javy Baez may not be the best baseball player you've ever seen? Major understatement. But whether he's hitting a dinger, stealing home, making an unbelievable play in the field or swinging and missing at 3 straight fastballs over his head or curve balls a foot outside and in the dirt he may just be the most exciting player in the game.
Quote from: MUDish on June 04, 2018, 01:05:57 PM
It would probably take Mize falling to Philly to make this happen, you're right. MLB Draft certainly more unique with the slotting process.
Seems like a lot of smoke the last couple days that it won't go Mize - Bart- Bohm
Quote from: MUDish on June 04, 2018, 12:49:04 PM
Singer reminds me too much of Fulmer. I'd take Bohm.
I've read that comparison elsewhere, but don't see it. Other than they're both righthanded starters from the SEC, they're not similar at all. Different pitching motions, different arsenals, very different frames (Fullmer 5'11, 195, Singer 6'5", 180).
Even when the Sox drafted him, there were a good number who thought Fullmer was destined for the bullpen because of his size and odd delivery. Don't think I've ever seen Singer projected as anything other than a starter.
I've seen Singer compared to Nola in a few places, in which case, I'd take that in a heartbeat.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 04, 2018, 01:27:38 PM
I've read that comparison elsewhere, but don't see it. Other than they're both righthanded starters from the SEC, they're not similar at all. Different pitching motions, different arsenals, very different frames (Fullmer 5'11, 195, Singer 6'5", 180).
Even when the Sox drafted him, there were a good number who thought Fullmer was destined for the bullpen because of his size and odd delivery. Don't think I've ever seen Singer projected as anything other than a starter.
I've seen Singer compared to Nola in a few places, in which case, I'd take that in a heartbeat.
It's the short arm delivery from Singer that scares me. I forgot where I saw someone said Singer may be a projected high impact reliever because of his delivery.
I also saw a list of Hahn's top picks, and it certainly is the ultimate crapshoot, but his first round picks have been underwhelming, be it injury (Rodon/Burger) wait and see (Anderson) or bad (Fulmer). Hopefully whoever it is tonight is added as a piece to the 2020 playoff push. I'll cheer whoever it is.
Quote from: MUDish on June 04, 2018, 12:49:04 PM
Singer reminds me too much of Fulmer. I'd take Bohm.
I have to agree with Pakuni here. I don't see it. Singer has basically elite command, which Fulmer obviously lacks. Actually I see them as opposites in a lot of ways, Fulmer definitely has plus stuff, but lacks command. The knock on Singer is that his stuff doesn't play up as much.
Quote from: MUDish on June 04, 2018, 01:34:00 PM
I also saw a list of Hahn's top picks, and it certainly is the ultimate crapshoot, but his first round picks have been underwhelming, be it injury (Rodon/Burger) wait and see (Anderson) or bad (Fulmer). Hopefully whoever it is tonight is added as a piece to the 2020 playoff push. I'll cheer whoever it is.
Relative to his draft class, Anderson is looking like a really good pick. Among the 20 or so players chosen after him, only one (Aaron Judge, taken 15 slots later) has developed into an impact player. Most have yet to reach the majors.
No love for Zack Collins?
Quote from: Pakuni on June 04, 2018, 01:52:17 PM
No love for Zack Collins?
Dude has been bonkers over the last 6 weeks or so. He is walking in about 25% of his PA, hitting for power, and reportedly improving his receiving skills.
His slash line now is .275/.455/.470 That is great from a catcher, and then factor in he started the season like 2 for 40, and whoa has he been on fire. If not for what a monster Eloy is, Collins would be getting some serious attention among Sox fans.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 04, 2018, 01:52:17 PM
Relative to his draft class, Anderson is looking like a really good pick. Among the 20 or so players chosen after him, only one (Aaron Judge, taken 15 slots later) has developed into an impact player. Most have yet to reach the majors.
No love for Zack Collins?
I forgot about Collins, I liked the pick then and like him still.
I want Anderson to be really good. I feel like he's always on the cusp, then has a tough stretch.
I want Adolfo to be a stud, it'll take him another couple years, but he's a physical beast.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 04, 2018, 01:22:45 PM
Seems like a lot of smoke the last couple days that it won't go Mize - Bart- Bohm
Or not.
White Sox take Madrigal (my choice since Bohm was gone). Singer still not selected through pick #8.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 04, 2018, 06:58:16 PM
White Sox take Madrigal (my choice since Bohm was gone). Singer still not selected through pick #8.
Great pick, hopefully Singer falls to 46! :D
This draft has really gotten away from predictions. Sox may end up with someone better than expected with their 2nd pick.
Madrigal feels like one of those guys you love him if he's on your team, and hate playing against him. A team can never have enough good middle infielders in the pipeline.
I'm not surprised Singer is falling (unless there's a undisclosed medical issue).
Seems like KC pushed Singer lower and will use their immense draft pool to go quite a bit over to sign him.
Brewers got a guy projected in the top 10 (even 5) for much of the season.
Someday soon, a Detroit announcer may say "Mize-y Casey has struck out..... the side"
Quote from: tower912 on June 04, 2018, 08:57:11 PM
Someday soon, a Detroit announcer may say "Mize-y Casey has struck out..... the side"
Likely against the Sox.
Waukesha West High School produces the first high school player drafted.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 04, 2018, 09:58:50 PM
Waukesha West High School produces the first high school player drafted.
Sort of...it looks like he didn't play high school baseball because the high school season interfered with club season.
This is part of why all high school baseball in Wisconsin is moving to spring season next year, so that kids can play high school in spring and then club all summer.
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003712715934879744 (https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003712715934879744)
Cubs Wives vs Brewer Wives softball game.
Cubs DL:
Bryant - ACL
Baez - Pregnant
Russell - Pregnant (obviously)
Almora - Pregnant
Hope nun of dem get der snoz busted, hey?
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 05, 2018, 08:52:06 AM
Sort of...it looks like he didn't play high school baseball because the high school season interfered with club season.
This is part of why all high school baseball in Wisconsin is moving to spring season next year, so that kids can play high school in spring and then club all summer.
Yeah I didn't really mean to say that Waukesha West is responsible for developing the kid. Just that a kid that goes to Waukesha West was the first high school player taken in the MLB Draft. That's pretty wild.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 05, 2018, 09:02:50 AM
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003712715934879744 (https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1003712715934879744)
Cubs Wives vs Brewer Wives softball game.
Cubs DL:
Bryant - ACL
Baez - Pregnant
Russell - Pregnant (obviously)
Almora - Pregnant
This whole idea is great. It's for charity. It's a rivalry. I love it.
That said, as a Brewers fan, I know NOTHING about the Brewers' wives. I think Braun married a model a few years back and I think Hernan Perez has like 6 kids, but that's about it.
Go Brewives!
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 05, 2018, 08:52:06 AM
Sort of...it looks like he didn't play high school baseball because the high school season interfered with club season.
This is part of why all high school baseball in Wisconsin is moving to spring season next year, so that kids can play high school in spring and then club all summer.
Playing baseball in Wisconsin in "Spring" will be miserable.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 05, 2018, 08:52:06 AM
Sort of...it looks like he didn't play high school baseball because the high school season interfered with club season.
This is part of why all high school baseball in Wisconsin is moving to spring season next year, so that kids can play high school in spring and then club all summer.
I'm mildly disappointed in the move to spring. Obviously high schools want the best players representing the school but I like the idea of kids who are truly playing for scholarships or the draft to be playing club ball, which frees up a couple roster spots and some playing time for high schoolers who just want to have fun playing HS baseball.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 04, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
Happy draft day everyone.
Hoping the Sox can snag one of Bohm or Madrigal. Singer seems a likely pick also.
But most importantly I just really hope that Seth Beer goes to the Brewers. Seems like a match made in heaven.
Any club going to take a chance on Oregon State's Luke Heimlich?
Quote from: Macallan 18 on June 05, 2018, 12:53:50 PM
Any club going to take a chance on Oregon State's Luke Heimlich?
Only if they can maneuver around the public relations issues they will face.
Edit: Deleted after I Google searched Heimlich.
Quote from: Macallan 18 on June 05, 2018, 12:53:50 PM
Any club going to take a chance on Oregon State's Luke Heimlich?
Maybe. Is there an MLB equivalent of the Dallas Cowboys?
Heimlich will get drafted. At some point, the value proposition, i.e. his talent vs his baggage, will be favorable enough that someone will take him.
Quote from: Macallan 18 on June 05, 2018, 12:53:50 PM
Any club going to take a chance on Oregon State's Luke Heimlich?
It's a weird case.
Like everyone else, I have no idea of what happened between him and his niece. But I can say that his version of the events is not incredible. Those kinds of deals do get made. And in his case at the time, it would not have been unreasonable for he and his family to decide it was the best outcome. Hard to know whether we should loathe him or sympathize.
The problem for a team that drafts him is just not how to deal with the immediate news cycle, but deal with it over and over again if he makes it to the majors,
Quote from: Pakuni on June 05, 2018, 01:32:27 PM
It's a weird case.
Like everyone else, I have no idea of what happened between him and his niece. But I can say that his version of the events is not incredible. Those kinds of deals do get made. And in his case at the time, it would not have been unreasonable for he and his family to decide it was the best outcome. Hard to know whether we should loathe him or sympathize.
The problem for a team that drafts him is just not how to deal with the immediate news cycle, but deal with it over and over again if he makes it to the majors,
There was a good in-depth story about his case in SI a few weeks ago - https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/05/16/luke-heimlich-oregon-state (https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/05/16/luke-heimlich-oregon-state) - and it talked about his family's discussion around pleading guilty versus fighting it in court.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 05, 2018, 09:42:38 AM
Hope nun of dem get der snoz busted, hey?
I felt bad chuckling at this
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 05, 2018, 12:12:28 PM
Playing baseball in Wisconsin in "Spring" will be miserable.
There were several kids who played football and baseball at my high school, which they could not do if they were the same season. I didn't realize anyone played baseball in the fall. Thinking about the weather in Wisconsin, I guess that makes a lot of sense.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 05, 2018, 03:16:35 PM
There were several kids who played football and baseball at my high school, which they could not do if they were the same season. I didn't realize anyone played baseball in the fall. Thinking about the weather in Wisconsin, I guess that makes a lot of sense.
Not fall, summer. There are high school seasons starting basically right now, while others are finishing playoffs this week. Summer baseball for high schools is going away next year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 05, 2018, 12:12:28 PM
Playing baseball in Wisconsin in "Spring" will be miserable.
So miserable that 80% of Wisconsin high schools play in spring now.
One of the reasons Bryant is so great is his base-running. Fantastic job taking advantage of the shift here:
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1004534834809724932
Bryant has an incredible baserunning IQ. He frequently gets extra bases out of pretty standard plays.
Almost a tough loss for the Cubs. Before tonight Brandon Morrow and Steve Cishek had the first and third longest active homerless innings pitched (regular season). Luckily, Heyward bailed them out with the walkoff.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 06, 2018, 11:14:48 PM
Bryant has an incredible baserunning IQ. He frequently gets extra bases out of pretty standard plays.
Almost a tough loss for the Cubs. Before tonight Brandon Morrow and Steve Cishek had the first and third longest active homerless innings pitched regular season). Luckily, Heyward bailed them out with the walkoff.
The chances of each of those 3 HRs when looking at the numbers were very small. Then for all 3 to happen within the last 3+ innings of the same game? That's baseball.
Heyward seems like a very classy dude so after all his struggles I was really happy for him.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 07, 2018, 05:41:15 AM
The chances of each of those 3 HRs when looking at the numbers were very small. Then for all 3 to happen within the last 3+ innings of the same game? That's baseball.
Heyward seems like a very classy dude so after all his struggles I was really happy for him.
I believe I saw since coming off the DL for the concussion, he has hit .340 in games he has started. He's definitely been making hard contact.
Before that grand slam, Jason Heyward didn't have an extra-base hit off of a lefty this season and Adam Morgan hadn't given up an extra-base hit to a lefty this season.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 07, 2018, 08:20:24 AM
I believe I saw since coming off the DL for the concussion, he has hit .340 in games he has started. He's definitely been making hard contact.
Since coming off the DL (16 games, 13 starts), Heyward has hit .321 with 11 RBIs and slugged .482. The Cubs are 12-4 during that stretch. He's obviously not playing up to his contract but he's still an important part of this team. I was thrilled to see his improbable HR last night!
Quote from: #bansultan on June 05, 2018, 04:25:30 PM
So miserable that 80% of Wisconsin high schools play in spring now.
As long as football has first pick that's likely to be the case. Doesn't make Spring in Wisconsin any less miserable, though. Late August, September and October in Wisconsin are generally much nicer than late March, April and May.
Only 1/2 game back. Won't be long now until the panic is in full force.
Quote from: WarriorDad on June 08, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
Only 1/2 game back. Won't be long now until the panic is in full force.
Too early for anyone to panic.
Quote from: WarriorDad on June 08, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
Only 1/2 game back. Won't be long now until the panic is in full force.
Whew, just looked at my calendar. It is June, by the tone of this post I thought it must be late September. Glad I didn't just miss the summer.
The NL West is a wonderful, beautiful, mess. I love it.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 08, 2018, 11:29:46 AM
The NL West is a wonderful, beautiful, mess. I love it.
even with Kershaw's injuries, I think the NL West is still the Dodgers to lose.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on June 08, 2018, 11:35:34 AM
even with Kershaw's injuries, I think the NL West is still the Dodgers to lose.
Agreed.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on June 08, 2018, 11:35:34 AM
even with Kershaw's injuries, I think the NL West is still the Dodgers to lose.
And Seager, Maeda, Hill, Ryu...
The good news for them is that Bellinger has been back to his 2017 form this week. If he keeps mashing it'll go a long way.
I find the Giants very interesting. They have been playing well (stayed in it) and just got Bumgarner back. If Cueto can return they could make some noise.
And losing Pollock has killed the DBacks, if Goldy starts being himself and their pitching rebounds a bit...
And Colorado is talented but their pitching is killing them, they need to start playing at home.
It is an interesting division.
Quote from: WarriorDad on June 08, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
Only 1/2 game back. Won't be long now until the panic is in full force.
The panic of what?
Quote from: WarriorDad on June 08, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
Only 1/2 game back. Won't be long now until the panic is in full force.
Oh. My. God. Now what?
Quote from: WarriorDad on June 08, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
Only 1/2 game back. Won't be long now until the panic is in full force.
you mean the team that literally every expert picked to win the nl central might actually climb into first place in the nl central?! Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!
This Ohtani deal sucks for baseball.
Been out of pocket a bit. The Dodgers are alive, huh?
Quote from: tower912 on June 05, 2018, 01:28:16 PM
Heimlich will get drafted. At some point, the value proposition, i.e. his talent vs his baggage, will be favorable enough that someone will take him.
And.... I was wrong.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 08, 2018, 09:44:12 AM
Too early for anyone to panic.
Having a little fun. Brewer fan friends who were talking trash earlier in the season have been more quiet of late.
Quote from: tower912 on June 10, 2018, 11:53:33 AM
And.... I was wrong.
Don't agree with it honestly. Dude did some fucked up crap when he was a really stupid kid. Should we ruin the rest of his life now? Why must it always be about punishment instead of rehabilitation?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 10, 2018, 04:06:27 PM
Don't agree with it honestly. Dude did some unnatural carnal knowledgeed up crap when he was a really stupid kid. Should we ruin the rest of his life now? Why must it always be about punishment instead of rehabilitation?
It is a tremendous ethical conundrum. If it weren't for a careless error on his part and an additional clerical error, the record would have been sealed forever and very few would ever have known, as juvenile crime files are sealed. For good reason. And he followed all of the rules of his plea agreement and from all outward signs has strived to be a model citizen. How long should someone be punished for a juvenile crime? One he now says he didn't commit, choosing a plea agreement for the sake of his family. If he applied for a position at your company, would you want him hired? Isn't it possible to accept that a teenager can learn and grow and become a better person, never to repeat a mistake that may or may not have happened at 15? Would you want to be eternally judged and tainted by your teenage actions? Or is this unforgiveable? And what should he do with his life? He theoretically should live another 60 years.
I would have drafted him.
The cost/benefit of the public relations involved made it impossible for most teams to consider.
Agreed.
The Heimlich situation is a difficult one. Would need to know more to make a true judgement. Was this a true predator who is likely to reoffend? Or was this a 15 year old who made a hormone fueled terrible decision? Either way he needs to be held accountable... But I agree with others that juvenile files are sealed for a reason.
The limited bit I know, I would have drafted him. Wouldn't be surprised to see a team quietly sign him
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 10, 2018, 04:06:27 PM
Don't agree with it honestly. Dude did some unnatural carnal knowledgeed up crap when he was a really stupid kid. Should we ruin the rest of his life now? Why must it always be about punishment instead of rehabilitation?
Well, not being able to play professional baseball does not necessarily equate to a life ruined.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 10, 2018, 06:44:43 PM
The Heimlich situation is a difficult one. Would need to know more to make a true judgement. Was this a true predator who is likely to reoffend? Or was this a 15 year old who made a hormone fueled terrible decision? Either way he needs to be held accountable... But I agree with others that juvenile files are sealed for a reason.
The limited bit I know, I would have drafted him. Wouldn't be surprised to see a team quietly sign him
This won't be possible. Not for a while at least. I wouldn't be surprised if he signed with an independent league team, or in Japan or Korea. The media storm here would be intense. Even if it is as a UDFA.
It sounds like the reason it became public is because he was cited for failing to provide updates as a registered sex offender. That's entirely on himself.
It also sounds like this wasn't a one time incident. It's reported it's for two different periods of time. September of 2009 through September of 2010 and September of 2011 through December of 2011. He then pleaded guilty to one count of molestation for a period between February 2011 and December 2011.
If I'm looking to employ him, whether in athletics or another field, I can find someone else who can provide me what he can, regardless of whether there would be negative publicity or not.
It's really not all that different than the Colin Kaepernick situation. His talents aren't great enough to overcome the circus and PR hit that would come with drafting/signing him.
Let me ask this: If someone with Heimlich's background applied for a job at your company, would you hire him?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 11, 2018, 08:41:22 AM
It's really not all that different than the Colin Kaepernick situation. His talents aren't great enough to overcome the circus and PR hit that would come with drafting/signing him.
Nice try but no. And I'm not getting into that debate here.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 11, 2018, 08:41:22 AM
Let me ask this: If someone with Heimlich's background applied for a job at your company, would you hire him?
To run a child-care center? No.
To be a janitor? Sure.
I would. But I am by nature a tolerant soul. His 'talent' is such that without the baggage he would have been a 1-2 round pick. The baggage is such that he is radioactive.
No way I would have drafted him. The family member was 6 and he was 15 - I'm not able to say, "paid his debt, rehabilitated, nothing to see here" on this one. And I wouldn't want to put the other guys in the clubhouse in the position of having to accept him as a teammate.
Quote from: tower912 on June 11, 2018, 08:51:16 AM
I would. But I am by nature a tolerant soul. His 'talent' is such that without the baggage he would have been a 1-2 round pick. The baggage is such that he is radioactive.
Without the baggage he would have likely been a 1st round pick in last year's draft. He was widely expected to be such before this story came out.
Quote from: #bansultan on June 11, 2018, 08:50:05 AM
Nice try but no. And I'm not getting into that debate here.
To run a child-care center? No.
To be a janitor? Sure.
I wasn't trying to start anything. Just pointing out a similarity.
I meant, would you hire him to work for you directly? Would you be OK informing your team that they'll be working with a registered sex offender? Personally, I wouldn't.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 11, 2018, 10:08:17 AM
I wasn't trying to start anything. Just pointing out a similarity.
I meant, would you hire him to work for you directly? Would you be OK informing your team that they'll be working with a registered sex offender? Personally, I wouldn't.
Do you just expect registered sex offenders to never work again? How do you expect them to rehab if you literally take any chance of that away.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 11, 2018, 11:14:52 AM
Do you just expect registered sex offenders to never work again? How do you expect them to rehab if you literally take any chance of that away.
I didn't say that they shouldn't work. I said that I wouldn't hire him.
Would YOU hire him to work for you directly and be OK informing your team that they'll be working with a registered sex offender?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 11, 2018, 11:41:57 AM
I didn't say that they shouldn't work. I said that I wouldn't hire him.
Would YOU hire him to work for you directly and be OK informing your team that they'll be working with a registered sex offender?
If they served their punishment yes. After all that's what the punishment is there for. And yes I would be perfectly okay with informing my team that they will be working with a sex offender (even though that information would not be provided with them in the case of juveniles) they don't need to be friends, just Co workers.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 11, 2018, 12:45:26 PM
If they served their punishment yes. After all that's what the punishment is there for. And yes I would be perfectly okay with informing my team that they will be working with a sex offender (even though that information would not be provided with them in the case of juveniles) they don't need to be friends, just Co workers.
If the guy you are hiring failed to update his status as a registered sex offender and therefore his status as a sex offender because of a pedophile charge as a juvenile becomes public you should definitely disclose that to your employees that the new guy you're hiring is a sex offender due to something he did as a juvenile that is public because as an adult he was cited for a lack of updating his status.
Over the last week the White Sox have won a series with the Brewers, split 4 wtih the Twins, and took 2 of 3 in Fenway. Bring on Cleveland!!!
Rodon - Lopez - Covey could actually spell some difficulty in a 3 game set.
If the Sox have really found something in Covey, who has been unreal (granted in like 4 starts, but if he can even be a backend starter, it will be a great thing for the rebuild. It is hard to believe this is the same guy that was getting smacked all around the yard last season (even if he was rushed to the bigs for rule 5 purposes).
Check out this. All sorts of nasty.
https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1005408274278207488
Oh, and if you love ridiculous pitching gifs, pitching ninja is your guy.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 11, 2018, 01:14:02 PM
Over the last week the White Sox have won a series with the Brewers, split 4 wtih the Twins, and took 2 of 3 in Fenway. Bring on Cleveland!!!
Rodon - Lopez - Covey could actually spell some difficulty in a 3 game set.
If the Sox have really found something in Covey, who has been unreal (granted in like 4 starts, but if he can even be a backend starter, it will be a great thing for the rebuild. It is hard to believe this is the same guy that was getting smacked all around the yard last season (even if he was rushed to the bigs for rule 5 purposes).
Check out this. All sorts of nasty.
https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1005408274278207488
Oh, and if you love ridiculous pitching gifs, pitching ninja is your guy.
I was at Covey's first career win a few weeks back vs Baltimore and was really surprised at the quality of his stuff. I mean, OK, it's the Orioles, but he was consistently in the mid 90s with movement on his fastball, and his breaking stuff was sharp. No idea how or whether this lasts, but it's fun to watch. If it somehow continues, it sure takes some of the sting off Fullmer's failures (and perhaps pushes Fullmer into a more appropriate bullpen role).
Quote from: Pakuni on June 11, 2018, 02:12:07 PM
I was at Covey's first career win a few weeks back vs Baltimore and was really surprised at the quality of his stuff. I mean, OK, it's the Orioles, but he was consistently in the mid 90s with movement on his fastball, and his breaking stuff was sharp. No idea how or whether this lasts, but it's fun to watch. If it somehow continues, it sure takes some of the sting off Fullmer's failures (and perhaps pushes Fullmer into a more appropriate bullpen role).
Did the White Sox hire Chris Bosio?
Detroit did. Getting more out of the staff than anybody expected, despite a rash of injuries.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 11, 2018, 01:14:02 PM
Over the last week the White Sox have won a series with the Brewers, split 4 wtih the Twins, and took 2 of 3 in Fenway. Bring on Cleveland!!!
Rodon - Lopez - Covey could actually spell some difficulty in a 3 game set.
If the Sox have really found something in Covey, who has been unreal (granted in like 4 starts, but if he can even be a backend starter, it will be a great thing for the rebuild. It is hard to believe this is the same guy that was getting smacked all around the yard last season (even if he was rushed to the bigs for rule 5 purposes).
Check out this. All sorts of nasty.
https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1005408274278207488
Oh, and if you love ridiculous pitching gifs, pitching ninja is your guy.
All of his pitches are 1-2 mph better than last year. If he can maintain that.......
A couple former White Sox dueling in Milwaukee. Can the Brewers finally break through against the Cubs?
Cubs and Brewers are going to have the same problem at the end of the year: overused bullpen.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 11, 2018, 09:07:54 PM
Cubs and Brewers are going to have the same problem at the end of the year: overused bullpen.
I don't know if that will happen - at least in Milwaukee. Counsel has been very judicious with his top 4 guys. He always gives Hader at least 2 days off whenever he throws more than one inning. Jeffrey's is limited to one inning and Knebel has not been used heavily at all.
Guess we'll find out in a couple months.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 11, 2018, 09:07:54 PM
Cubs and Brewers are going to have the same problem at the end of the year: overused bullpen.
Joakim Soria, Nate Jones, Luis Avilan, Bruce Rondon. All for sale on the South Side.
Damn that was a forgiving strike for a pitcher who hasn't hit the plate
Quote from: Jockey on June 11, 2018, 09:23:24 PM
I don't know if that will happen - at least in Milwaukee. Counsel has been very judicious with his top 4 guys. He always gives Hader at least 2 days off whenever he throws more than one inning. Jeffrey's is limited to one inning and Knebel has not been used heavily at all.
Guess we'll find out in a couple months.
Even with days off, the innings loads are stacking up.
For the Cubs anyway, in 2016, their starters went deep into games and their bullpen stayed pretty solid in the postseason. Last season the bullpen took on a much higher inning load and looked gassed in the playoffs. It also helped in 2016, the Cubs had a large lead and could rest guys.
The inning load on the bullpen this year reminds me a lot of last season and that gives me concern for August and September. I wouldn't mind the Cubs trying to grab a fresh bullpen arm or two at the deadline.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 11, 2018, 10:13:36 PM
Even with days off, the innings loads are stacking up.
It also helped in 2016, the Cubs had a large lead and could rest guys.
It's this. The cubs had such a jump on everyone that they could afford to be very laid back with the bullpen. It also helped that the bats were hot the entire year and they kept finding ways to win in any game.
Quote from: tower912 on June 11, 2018, 02:35:18 PM
Detroit did. Getting more out of the staff than anybody expected, despite a rash of injuries.
Oh, you're not familiar with Wades' tired schtick.
I enjoyed the 11th inning.
How about Jason Heyward lately. This is the guy they thought they were signing.
Couldn't believe the Brewers took Guerra out at 72 pitches to go with Hader. I know he's been lights out but why not see if Guerra can get you few more outs and if he gets in a jam bring Hader in?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 11, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
Couldn't believe the Brewers took Guerra out at 72 pitches to go with Hader. I know he's been lights out but why not see if Guerra can get you few more outs and if he gets in a jam bring Hader in?
I actually thought it was the right move. Hader has obviously been dominant and I don't believe Guerra has really gone deep in any games.
Just checked - hasn't gone past 6. Hard to blame Counsell for that.
(https://gfycat.com/EnchantingNaturalElephantseal)
Cubs need 1 game to win the season series.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 11, 2018, 11:13:43 PM
I actually thought it was the right move. Hader has obviously been dominant and I don't believe Guerra has really gone deep in any games.
Someone here mentioned that they give Hader at least two days off when throwing more than an inning. That would make him out for the rest of the series.
I would have tried to get another inning out of Guerra, then gone to Hader so he would be available Wednesday.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 11, 2018, 11:17:02 PM
Someone here mentioned that they give Hader at least two days off when throwing more than an inning. That would make him out for the rest of the series.
I would have tried to get another inning out of Guerra, then gone to Hader so he would be available Wednesday.
Couldn't really argue with that either. Guerra did start to get hit quite a bit harder in the 6th with a Rizzo line out and Contreras just missing a HR.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 11, 2018, 11:07:02 PM
I enjoyed the 11th inning.
How about Jason Heyward lately. This is the guy they thought they were signing.
Don't forget his game tying single in the 8th.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 11, 2018, 11:17:02 PM
Someone here mentioned that they give Hader at least two days off when throwing more than an inning. That would make him out for the rest of the series.
I would have tried to get another inning out of Guerra, then gone to Hader so he would be available Wednesday.
Counsel was trying to win this game. He played it like it was a playoff game (might not be to far from the truth from a Brewer perspective) It burned him in the end.
On another note, Lester was right, the cubs are playing 2016 ball again.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 11, 2018, 11:13:43 PM
Just checked - hasn't gone past 6. Hard to blame Counsell for that.
But he's thrown at least 90 pitches in all but one start. He still had some bullets in him.
I will give you though the Cubs do hit guys hard their third time through.
I don't like the Cubs odds tomorrow with Chatwood on the mound. This game worries me the most of the three.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 11, 2018, 11:20:19 PM
Counsel was trying to win this game. He played it like it was a playoff game (might not be to far from the truth from a Brewer perspective) It burned him in the end.
On another note, Lester was right, the cubs are playing 2016 ball again.
managed it like a playoff game? haven't watched much brewers baseball this year huh? not far from a playoff game for the brewers? wtf are cubs fans smoking? panic mode, playoff mode in june? ooooh noooo! not 0.5 games back in JUNE! what will the brewers do?!
aren't you the guy who proclaimed that the cubs "had the cardinals" when talking about the brewers not being a rival?
funnny how lit up this place gets after a cubs win over a team that isn't their rival...
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 12, 2018, 01:38:22 AM
managed it like a playoff game? haven't watched much brewers baseball this year huh? not far from a playoff game for the brewers? wtf are cubs fans smoking? panic mode, playoff mode in june? ooooh noooo! not 0.5 games back in JUNE! what will the brewers do?!
aren't you the guy who proclaimed that the cubs "had the cardinals" when talking about the brewers not being a rival?
funnny how lit up this place gets after a cubs win over a team that isn't their rival...
"Lit up"? What a turd.
Lock him in a thread with Wadesworld.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 12, 2018, 07:45:02 AM
"Lit up"? What a turd.
i've never seen scoop's mlb thread this active after a cubs win over their only real rival in the nl central, that's for sure.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 12, 2018, 08:16:37 AM
i've never seen scoop's mlb thread this active after a cubs win over their only real rival in the nl central, that's for sure.
How many Cardinals fans frequent this board?
Isn't it logical that the thread would be most active when the two teams are playing each other considering the majority here are either Cubs or Brewers fans?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 11, 2018, 11:34:32 PM
I don't like the Cubs odds tomorrow with Chatwood on the mound. This game worries me the most of the three.
Chatwood has 56 walks in 58.1 IP and his WHIP is 1.78. He's walked 22 batters in his last 15.1 innings (4 starts). Despite that, his ERA is a very respectable 3.86 and the Cubs are 6-6 in his starts (3-1 in those BB-filled last 4). Unfortunately, that level of "success" can't be sust ainable over an entire season. Admittedly, I don't know if he has any options left but if he doesn't improve, I wonder if he'd get sent to Iowa to straighten things out once Darvish comes back. Montgomery could then take his spot in the rotation.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 12, 2018, 08:16:37 AM
i've never seen scoop's mlb thread this active after a cubs win over their only real rival in the nl central, that's for sure.
It may have something to do with 3 way overboard brewer fans making my ribs hurt from laughing everytime they post. If there were cardinal fans here, we would do the same.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 12, 2018, 08:16:37 AM
i've never seen scoop's mlb thread this active after a cubs win over their only real rival in the nl central, that's for sure.
As someone else stated, considering a lot of the people that post in this thread are Brewers and Cubs fans doesn't that make sense? Especially with both teams playing well?
You seem to have an issue with generalizations. Does one Cubs fan's opinion on the Cubs/Brewers rivalry generally mean all others feel the same way? Sure, the Cards are the Cub's main rival and it will always be that way but I think the Cubs & Brewers are developing a nice rivalry and it's fun.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 12, 2018, 08:49:26 AM
Admittedly, I don't know if he has any options left but if he doesn't improve, I wonder if he'd get sent to Iowa to straighten things out once Darvish comes back. Montgomery could then take his spot in the rotation.
I was wondering if they'd make up an injury to get him a few "rehab" starts in Iowa.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 12, 2018, 08:49:26 AM
Chatwood has 56 walks in 58.1 IP and his WHIP is 1.78. He's walked 22 batters in his last 15.1 innings (4 starts). Despite that, his ERA is a very respectable 3.86 and the Cubs are 6-6 in his starts (3-1 in those BB-filled last 4). Unfortunately, that level of "success" can't be sust ainable over an entire season. Admittedly, I don't know if he has any options left but if he doesn't improve, I wonder if he'd get sent to Iowa to straighten things out once Darvish comes back. Montgomery could then take his spot in the rotation.
Hopefully they figure something out. His command/control has never been this bad and it's obvious how good his stuff is.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 11, 2018, 11:20:19 PM
Counsel was trying to win this game. He played it like it was a playoff game (might not be to far from the truth from a Brewer perspective) It burned him in the end.
On another note, Lester was right, the cubs are playing 2016 ball again.
He coached it the same way he has done every game this year. Made all the right moves except running out to 2B to catch the throw from Cain in the 8th inning. Instead, Villar cost them the game.
Quote from: Jockey on June 12, 2018, 02:34:57 PM
He coached it the same way he has done every game this year. Made all the right moves except running out to 2B to catch the throw from Cain in the 8th inning. Instead, Villar cost them the game.
While that play did hurt, he was the only reason the Brewers even had the lead at that point with his homerun.
What's happened to the Cubs offense, full panic mode.
quiet tonight compared to last night.
maybe cubs fans are still trying to figure out where lorenzo cain is on the basepaths.
Miguel Cabrera out for the season with a ruptured bicep tendon.
Quote from: tower912 on June 13, 2018, 05:22:18 AM
Miguel Cabrera out for the season with a ruptured bicep tendon.
Sadly, I think the sun is setting on Miggy's career.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 12, 2018, 10:53:35 PM
quiet tonight compared to last night.
maybe cubs fans are still trying to figure out where lorenzo cain is on the basepaths.
Sick burn.
Anderson was good. Chatwood was not. Not much more to it than that.
On the plus side, Chatwood only threw two walks, however, I think in that first inning he was getting too much of the plate trying to avoid a walking anyone.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 13, 2018, 05:41:51 AM
Sadly, I think the sun is setting on Miggy's career.
I wish I could make a compelling argument to the contrary.
Quote from: tower912 on June 13, 2018, 06:34:02 AM
I wish I could make a compelling argument to the contrary.
There's 180 million reasons we haven't seen the last of Miggy. Not saying he's going to be any good, but he's gonna keep playing until that contract runs up. He has five years left!
Pujols is in the same boat, but he only has three $30m seasons left, not five.
For what it's worth... Cabrera's slash line this season is .299/.395/.448 but Pujols' is only .252/.288/.415. That's barely replacement level.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 06:29:22 AM
Sick burn.
Anderson was good. Chatwood was not. Not much more to it than that.
On the plus side, Chatwood only threw two walks, however, I think in that first inning he was getting too much of the plate trying to avoid a walking anyone.
you weren't even creative enough to use "sick burn" when you originally submitted this post? sad.
wasn't a burn. literally an observation. thought this place was active as can be since we're all brewers or cubs fans.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 13, 2018, 07:36:29 AM
There's 180 million reasons we haven't seen the last of Miggy. Not saying he's going to be any good, but he's gonna keep playing until that contract runs up. He has five years left!
Pujols is in the same boat, but he only has three $30m seasons left, not five.
For what it's worth... Cabrera's slash line this season is .299/.395/.448 but Pujols' is only .252/.288/.415. That's barely replacement level.
And veterans wonder why MLB teams aren't handing out big number contracts like they used to?
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Ea4jrlvqK6qKHYohY9XpJQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/f2e6f45b2254870ecc3de56d019cd069)
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 13, 2018, 08:43:10 AM
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Ea4jrlvqK6qKHYohY9XpJQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/f2e6f45b2254870ecc3de56d019cd069)
Better picture is behind home plate with Rizzo standing over home plate...
Quote from: wadesworld on June 13, 2018, 09:15:59 AM
Better picture is behind home plate with Rizzo standing over home plate...
This could be the "Marquette Gold" photo of the 2018 Cubs. So much funny.
Bryant tugging his nuts.
Chatwood looking confused, with a nice curveball grip on the ball.
Baez kicking dirt
Ump with the safe call.
Haywood with the " you guys hangin' out? I'll hang out" look.
I missed the photo of Rizzo at home.
Was the SS and Catcher both at 3rd?
I guess when you are 2-8 against a team, you have to hang your hat on plays like this.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:26:09 AM
I guess when you are 2-8 against a team, you have to hang your hat on plays like this.
...and yet you're still ahead of that team in the division.
Haha ok.
I prefer this picture of Rizzo.
(http://image.nhregister.com/storyimage/NH/20170411/SPORTS/170419938/AR/0/AR-170419938.jpg&maxh=400&maxw=667)
Congrats on that one play though.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 13, 2018, 09:30:50 AM
I prefer this picture of Rizzo.
(http://image.nhregister.com/storyimage/NH/20170411/SPORTS/170419938/AR/0/AR-170419938.jpg&maxh=400&maxw=667)
Congrats on that one play though.
I remember 2016.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:27:49 AM
Haha ok.
So you'd rather be 4-1 against the Cardinals but 2.5 games behind them in the standings rather than 1-4 but 2.5 games up in the standings? Haha okay, but so goes the logic of a Chicago sports fan.
Love Strop front and center in that picture.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 13, 2018, 09:31:15 AM
So you'd rather be 4-1 against the Cardinals but 2.5 games behind them in the standings rather than 1-4 but 2.5 games up in the standings? Haha okay, but so goes the logic of a Chicago sports fan.
I'd rather be ahead in the loss column.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:33:41 AM
I'd rather be ahead in the loss column.
That's not really the question or the point, but way to dodge.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 13, 2018, 09:35:36 AM
That's not really the question or the point, but way to dodge.
How am I dodging the question? The Cubs are ahead of the Brewers in the loss column which means they control their own destiny. I don't care about games back. I care about fewer losses.
The Brewers could win out but it wouldn't matter if the Cubs win out.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:38:29 AM
How am I dodging the question? The Cubs are ahead of the Brewers in the loss column which means they control their own destiny. I don't care about games back. I care about fewer losses.
The Brewers could win out but it wouldn't matter if the Cubs win out.
Considering the Brewers and Cubs play each other, well, tonight, it would very much matter if the Brewers won out because that would mean the Cubs wouldn't be winning out. But sure am glad the Cubs control their own destiny on June 13. Wish the Brewers still had control of their own destiny. Just praying for some help here!
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 13, 2018, 09:30:50 AM
I prefer this picture of Rizzo.
Congrats on that one play though.
A little touchy eh?
And weren't Cub fans crowing about 1 baserunning earlier this week?
They were both good plays. Fun plays.
That was pretty brilliant base-running by Cain, telling Yelich exactly what to do.
This applies to all professional sports, but if I'm a manager, part of the preseason for my players would be that everyone has to re-read the entire rule-book. Any major changes would be discussed, but knowing little things like that can make a difference. Different sport, but the small things like Belichick having the offensive lineman be an eligible receiver to throw off the D-backs against the Ravens in 2015, or the Ty Montgomery touching the kickoff laying with his feet out of bounds to draw the penalty in 2016. Any advantage can be a major advantage in the right situation.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:38:29 AM
How am I dodging the question? The Cubs are ahead of the Brewers in the loss column which means they control their own destiny. I don't care about games back. I care about fewer losses.
The Brewers could win out but it wouldn't matter if the Cubs win out.
It is freaking June. Of course they control their own destiny. It is June.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 13, 2018, 09:31:15 AM
So you'd rather be 4-1 against the Cardinals but 2.5 games behind them in the standings rather than 1-4 but 2.5 games up in the standings? Haha okay, but so goes the logic of a Chicago sports fan.
I'd rather have the most talented team in the division.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 13, 2018, 09:43:37 AM
I'd rather have the most talented team in the division.
Not that difficult when your payroll is almost double the team that is ahead of you.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 13, 2018, 09:31:15 AM
I remember 2016.
So you'd rather be 4-1 against the Cardinals but 2.5 games behind them in the standings rather than 1-4 but 2.5 games up in the standings? Haha okay, but so goes the logic of a Chicago sports fan.
I wouldn't be calling people out based on a half game lead in June either, but I am just a Chicago sports fan I guess, what do I know.
And the most talented team doesn't always win.
And the most payroll doesn't equate to the most talent, nor the most wins.
This pissing match is quite annoying actually.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 09:42:07 AM
It is freaking June. Of course they control their own destiny. It is June.
I'm not the one who brought up the standings.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 09:41:28 AM
A little touchy eh?
And weren't Cub fans crowing about 1 baserunning earlier this week?
They were both good plays. Fun plays.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1006743830887124992/video/1
You brought up this, which seems like a petty response to what was objectively a funny play.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:26:09 AM
I guess when you are 2-8 against a team, you have to hang your hat on plays like this.
You also said
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:33:41 AM
I'd rather be ahead in the loss column.
And it is still June... so, all this stuff is ridiculous when the teams are a half game apart. The standings now only matter if you are in Sox, Royals, Orioles, Marlins territory.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on June 13, 2018, 09:50:02 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1006743830887124992/video/1
See now *that's* quality social media right there!
As opposed to the sh*t-talking of two insecure fan bases that regularly occurs here.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 13, 2018, 09:40:39 AM
Considering the Brewers and Cubs play each other, well, tonight, it would very much matter if the Brewers won out because that would mean the Cubs wouldn't be winning out. But sure am glad the Cubs control their own destiny on June 13. Wish the Brewers still had control of their own destiny. Just praying for some help here!
You have any new, fresh material on the rain out from last year?
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 09:51:39 AM
You also said
And it is still June... so, all this stuff is ridiculous when the teams are a half game apart. The standings now only matter if you are in Sox, Royals, Orioles, Marlins territory.
Right. I said I'd rather be ahead in the loss column when asked a question about where I would want to be in the standings.
Quote from: #bansultan on June 13, 2018, 09:54:04 AM
See now *that's* quality social media right there!
As opposed to the sh*t-talking of two insecure fan bases that regularly occurs here.
That was very well done.
Give credit where credit's due, it was a fun, smart baseball play that eventually led to 2 additional runs scoring. Tip 'o the cap to Lorenzo Cain.
Quote from: #bansultan on June 13, 2018, 09:54:04 AM
As opposed to the sh*t-talking of two insecure fan bases that regularly occurs here.
I'm still confident the Cubs will win the division. I wouldn't call that insecure.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 10:15:26 AM
I'm still confident the Cubs will win the division. I wouldn't call that insecure.
Sure.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on June 13, 2018, 09:50:02 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1006743830887124992/video/1
Mrs Jump Around with the cameo.
Just to change directions,
Mike Trout is having his best season ever.
That is all. Not as fun as standings in June, but, something different.
Oh yeah, and Paul Goldschmidt remembered how to hit.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 10:21:38 AM
Mike Trout is having his best season ever.
And most people don't even notice because he plays on the west coast.
He can retire right now at 26 and be a Hall of Famer.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 10:21:38 AM
Just to change directions,
Mike Trout is having his best season ever.
That is all. Not as fun as standings in June, but, something different.
Oh yeah, and Paul Goldschmidt remembered how to hit.
And Chris Davis might be having THE worst season ever.
Think the O's would be willing to take less on a Machado deal if their trade partner also took Davis and the $92M remaining on his deal? To quote Sultan: And veterans wonder why MLB teams aren't handing out big number contracts like they used to?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 13, 2018, 10:30:15 AM
And Chris Davis might be having THE worst season ever.
Think the O's would be willing to take less on a Machado deal if their trade partner also took Davis and the $92M remaining on his deal? To quote Sultan: And veterans wonder why MLB teams aren't handing out big number contracts like they used to?
That was a horrible contract right from the start. I loved their negotiating: "Here is our best deal. Take it by this day" --A month later-- "Ok, we will give you more money even there are no other teams currently vying for your services."
Then they sign the same player 3 more times.
I heard yesterday they haven't hit a non-solo homer since May 19th.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 10:36:54 AM
That was a horrible contract right from the start. I loved their negotiating: "Here is our best deal. Take it by this day" --A month later-- "Ok, we will give you more money even there are no other teams currently vying for your services."
Then they sign the same player 3 more times.
I heard yesterday they haven't hit a non-solo homer since May 19th.
The Orioles are a freaking trainwreck.
Quote from: #bansultan on June 13, 2018, 10:18:32 AM
Sure.
My concerns with the Cubs are:
1) Bullpen useage. The bullpen has been awesome so far but they are racking up innings. If the starters don't begin going to deeper into games, I fully expect the bullpen's effectiveness to drop off in the later months of the season. I expect the Cubs to pick up a reliever at the deadline plus Carl Edwards will hopefully be back which will help lessen the work load.
2) Yu Darvish. I'm confident he will get back to form. My concern is when he will be back to actually get back into form. Montgomery is doing an exceptional job in the mean time filling in.
3) Tyler Chatwood throwing strikes. He has great stuff but no control of the strike zone. I wouldn't mind getting him a few "rehab" starts in Iowa once Darvish returns to get his mechanics where they need to be.
Some people are worried about Kris Bryant's power slump. He's still batting close to .300 during this "slump" so I'm not concerned about that. Also Javy is in the middle of a cold streak. That's just who he is. He will carry a team for a couple weeks then won't come within two feet of a pitched ball the next. I'm sure he will go back and forth several more times this season.
Even with these issues I'm confident the Cubs will win the division. Barring a major injury I just don't think the Brewers or Cardinals have enough to finish ahead of them. That's not a knock. I think the Brewers are a good team, I just think the Cubs are better.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 11:43:57 AM
My concerns with the Cubs are:
1) Bullpen useage. The bullpen has been awesome so far but they are racking up innings. If the starters don't begin going to deeper into games, I fully expect the bullpen's effectiveness to drop off in the later months of the season. I expect the Cubs to pick up a reliever at the deadline plus Carl Edwards will hopefully be back which will help lessen the work load.
2) Yu Darvish. I'm confident he will get back to form. My concern is when he will be back to actually get back into form. Montgomery is doing an exceptional job in the mean time filling in.
3) Tyler Chatwood throwing strikes. He has great stuff but no control of the strike zone. I wouldn't mind getting him a few "rehab" starts in Iowa once Darvish returns to get his mechanics where they need to be.
Some people are worried about Kris Bryant's power slump. He's still batting close to .300 during this "slump" so I'm not concerned about that. Also Javy is in the middle of a cold streak. That's just who he is. He will carry a team for a couple weeks then won't come within two feet of a pitched ball the next. I'm sure he will go back and forth several more times this season.
Even with these issues I'm confident the Cubs will win the division. Barring a major injury I just don't think the Brewers or Cardinals have enough to finish ahead of them. That's not a knock. I think the Brewers are a good team, I just think the Cubs are better.
So you are confident because your bullpen is being overused, Darvish will be a different guy than he has for the last year (4.50 ERA in the 2nd half last year --not counting the disaster of the playoffs-- and we know about this year), that Chatwood can't throw strikes and needs to go to Iowa, .280 is close to .300 and Javy Baez is streaky? Got it.
;)
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 13, 2018, 10:55:17 AM
The Orioles are a freaking trainwreck.
Machado, Britton, Brach, O'Day, Jones, Schoop...
If they play their firesale right, they could really re-load their system.
Marquette's own Sophia Minnaert hired by the Brewers and will continue to do in-game reporting for FS Wisconsin.
https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2018/06/13/milwaukee-brewers-hire-fox-sports-wisconsins.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2018/06/13/milwaukee-brewers-hire-fox-sports-wisconsins.html)
She's awesome, glad the Brewers were able to keep her.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 12:05:04 PM
So you are confident because your bullpen is being overused, Darvish will be a different guy than he has for the last year (4.50 ERA in the 2nd half last year --not counting the disaster of the playoffs-- and we know about this year), that Chatwood can't throw strikes and needs to go to Iowa, .280 is close to .300 and Javy Baez is streaky? Got it.
;)
Uh, he said those were his concerns...
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 13, 2018, 12:33:33 PM
Uh, he said those were his concerns...
Sorry, let me rephrase my snarky comment,
So other than the bullpen being overworked and wilting as the season wears on, 1 starter being injured and ineffective, another not knowing the K-zone, a power hitter with less power and a super streaky 2B that has no K-zone judgement at all, you aren't concerned.
Got it.
;)
There, that better?
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 12:48:17 PM
Sorry, let me rephrase my snarky comment,
So other than the bullpen being overworked and wilting as the season wears on, 1 starter being injured and ineffective, another not knowing the K-zone, a power hitter with less power and a super streaky 2B that has no K-zone judgement at all, you aren't concerned.
Got it.
;)
There, that better?
Not sure where they are now, but last weekend the Cubs led the National League in ERA, Fangraphs DEF, WRC+, and Fangraphs BsR. If they aren't still in first, they are near the top. So yes, despite these concerns I have, I am confident the Cubs will win the division.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 12:48:17 PM
Sorry, let me rephrase my snarky comment,
So other than the bullpen being overworked and wilting as the season wears on, 1 starter being injured and ineffective, another not knowing the K-zone, a power hitter with less power and a super streaky 2B that has no K-zone judgement at all, you aren't concerned.
Got it.
;)
There, that better?
Do you have any concerns about the Brewers?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 01:49:06 PM
Not sure where they are now, but last weekend the Cubs led the National League in ERA, Fangraphs DEF, WRC+, and Fangraphs BsR. If they aren't still in first, they are near the top. So yes, despite these concerns I have, I am confident the Cubs will win the division.
The Cubs also have the best run differential in the NL. Sure, they have their issues but nearly every current projection site still has the Cubs finishing with the best record in the NL.
Also, let's remember that the Cubs were sitting at .500 after 64 games last season, were 2 games below .500 at the ASB and went on to win 92 games. This team knows how to win, especially down the stretch.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 02:00:40 PM
Do you have any concerns about the Brewers?
He may, but he's a White Sox fan.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 12:48:17 PM
a super streaky 2B that has no K-zone judgement at all
Yet is only 3 behind the league leader in RBI.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 13, 2018, 07:36:29 AM
There's 180 million reasons we haven't seen the last of Miggy. Not saying he's going to be any good, but he's gonna keep playing until that contract runs up. He has five years left!
Pujols is in the same boat, but he only has three $30m seasons left, not five.
For what it's worth... Cabrera's slash line this season is .299/.395/.448 but Pujols' is only .252/.288/.415. That's barely replacement level.
I love Miggy. I know he has every intention of playing out his contract. I just don't know if he can be counted on any more.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 02:30:08 PM
Yet is only 3 behind the league leader in RBI.
RBI is a relatively useless stat.
The fact Baez is 5th in RBIs while 31st in OPS and 33rd in WAR tells confirms.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 12:48:17 PM
Sorry, let me rephrase my snarky comment,
So other than the bullpen being overworked and wilting as the season wears on, 1 starter being injured and ineffective, another not knowing the K-zone, a power hitter with less power and a super streaky 2B that has no K-zone judgement at all, you aren't concerned.
Got it.
;)
There, that better?
That's better. And personally, nope, not at all concerned about where the team will be in the standings after the regular season ends.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 13, 2018, 02:43:11 PM
RBI is a relatively useless stat.
The fact Baez is 5th in RBIs while 31st in OPS and 33rd in WAR tells confirms.
So he's a top 35 player in the league? I'll take that in a second.
My concern for the Sox is they've won too much over the last week and a half.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 02:49:15 PM
So he's a top 35 player in the league? I'll take that in a second.
Statistically he is right now, so long as you don't consider pitchers players.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 23, 2018, 09:28:39 PM
This is either the worst or best thread on Scoop.
I can now officially confirm that it is the worst.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 13, 2018, 03:31:29 PM
I can now officially confirm that it is the worst.
I seem to think you meant to say most exciting. The political board has nothing on this.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 12:48:17 PM
Sorry, let me rephrase my snarky comment,
So other than the bullpen being overworked and wilting as the season wears on, 1 starter being injured and ineffective, another not knowing the K-zone, a power hitter with less power and a super streaky 2B that has no K-zone judgement at all, you aren't concerned.
Got it.
;)
There, that better?
A streaky player? In baseball? A game defined by streaks? Surely not.
Well that was a strong showing by the cubs bats today.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 09:38:29 AM
How am I dodging the question? The Cubs are ahead of the Brewers in the loss column which means they control their own destiny. I don't care about games back. I care about fewer losses.
The Brewers could win out but it wouldn't matter if the Cubs win out.
How's that loss column lookin' now, bird-man? 8-)
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 13, 2018, 04:06:47 PM
Well that was a strong showing by the cubs bats today.
Yup. Seems like they all get cold at the same time or all get hot at the same time. Need to balance those streaks haha.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 13, 2018, 04:07:45 PM
How's that loss column lookin' now, bird-man? 8-)
They are tied.
And again, I'm not the one who brought up the standings in June. I was answering a question I was asked.
can we do a wellness check on warriordad? don't want to put words in his mouth but my guess based on his over excitement of the cubs, the overwhelming favorite in the division, closing the gap in june on the brewers, to him this series was the dagger on the season.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 04:09:53 PM
They are tied.
And again, I'm not the one who brought up the standings in June. I was answering a question I was asked.
Except you didn't answer the question you were asked. You were asked if you'd like to trade places with the Cardinals so that you could have the better head to head record. Your answer was you'd rather have the better loss column...
Thank God the Cubbies still control their own destiny though. One of the few teams in baseball who can say that with 100+ games to play.
Nice response by the Brewers.
Very frustrating to lose a game 1-0 after another nice start by Montgomery.
Not even pinch-hitting Bryant in spite of recent slump is a bit questionable.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 13, 2018, 04:12:44 PM
Except you didn't answer the question you were asked. You were asked if you'd like to trade places with the Cardinals so that you could have the better head to head record. Your answer was you'd rather have the better loss column...
Obviously I would take the better record.
Now that the Cubs and Brewers are tied in the loss column I would take the Brewers record. When the question was asked this morning I would take the Cubs record.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 13, 2018, 04:14:08 PM
Not even pinch-hitting Bryant in spite of recent slump is a bit questionable.
Agreed. Would have pinch hit Bryant for Gimenez. Especially since Contreras was in the game.
That 8th inning maneuvering by Maddon was awesome. I love that kinda sh*t.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 04:14:46 PM
Obviously I would take the better record.
Now that the Cubs and Brewers are tied in the loss column I would take the Brewers record. When the question was asked this morning I would take the Cubs record.
Fair enough. My point all along was I'm not really sure Brewers fans were "hanging their hat" on anything. They brought up a great play by Cain and Yelich, nothing more, nothing less. Just like the Cubs fans did a few days earlier.
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 13, 2018, 04:16:28 PM
That 8th inning maneuvering by Maddon was awesome. I love that kinda sh*t.
He's done that a few times. My favorite was when Travis Wood got a ball hit to him in left field.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfpCmWx22IA
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 04:09:53 PM
They are tied.
And again, I'm not the one who brought up the standings in June. I was answering a question I was asked.
And I'm just messing with you.
Though, I think the Brewers are in the heads of the Cubs now. LOL.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 13, 2018, 04:11:53 PM
can we do a wellness check on warriordad? don't want to put words in his mouth but my guess based on his over excitement of the cubs, the overwhelming favorite in the division, closing the gap in june on the brewers, to him this series was the dagger on the season.
He's probably more concerned with the Angels.
Brad Galli posted this amazing video of Noah Syndergaard and Terry Collins getting ejected.
More of this!
Language NSFW.
https://twitter.com/BradGalli/status/1007002479912013824
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 13, 2018, 04:16:28 PM
That 8th inning maneuvering by Maddon was awesome. I love that kinda sh*t.
I like it too but Uecker raised a good question. Warm-up pitches? You'd think the rulebook would preclude. If silent it probably shouldn't be. I mean we have exactly the opposite when a pitcher gets injured and the replacement gets as much as he needs.
Anyway, helluva series. Two good clubs.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 04:47:43 PM
Brad Galli posted this amazing video of Noah Syndergaard and Terry Collins getting ejected.
More of this!
Language NSFW.
https://twitter.com/BradGalli/status/1007002479912013824
That is freakin' awesome. What's the backstory? The Crew Chief did a helluva job.
Quote from: jsglow on June 13, 2018, 05:03:03 PM
That is freakin' awesome. What's the backstory? The Crew Chief did a helluva job.
EDIT: I looked it up. It was retaliation for the Chase Utley slide in the 2015 playoffs. This was the following May.
https://deadspin.com/what-do-we-think-of-this-old-video-of-an-umpire-handlin-1826783441 (https://deadspin.com/what-do-we-think-of-this-old-video-of-an-umpire-handlin-1826783441)
I have no idea what "our ass in the jackpot now" means but I want to start using it.
If MLB wants to get more people watching, stuff like this would do the trick haha.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 05:04:59 PM
EDIT: I looked it up. It was retaliation for the Chase Utley slide in the 2015 playoffs. This was the following May.
https://deadspin.com/what-do-we-think-of-this-old-video-of-an-umpire-handlin-1826783441 (https://deadspin.com/what-do-we-think-of-this-old-video-of-an-umpire-handlin-1826783441)
I have no idea what "our ass in the jackpot now" means but I want to start using it.
It's our new meme for the year. Absolutely fabulous.
Quote from: jsglow on June 13, 2018, 05:47:19 PM
It's our new meme for the year. Absolutely fabulous.
Wojo's ass is in the jackpot now?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 05:08:21 PM
If MLB wants to get more people watching, stuff like this would do the trick haha.
This x Infinity. That's the best two minutes of sports content I've seen this year. It's perfect, it's authentic, baseball absolutely needs more of this.
So it's JUNE 13th and the Yankees are .013 ahead of the Sox but still 1/2 game back. Crazy.
MLB has had the video pulled. Unfortunate.
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 13, 2018, 04:16:28 PM
That 8th inning maneuvering by Maddon was awesome. I love that kinda sh*t.
In Pony League, yeah. In the bigs, not so much. Nobody loves over managing more than Joe.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 07:18:29 PM
MLB has had the video pulled. Unfortunate.
Of course they did. Entertaining, engaging, and also puts umpires in a good light? NOPE. Look what free access to highlights on social media has done for the NBA. That league is dead. ::)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 10:24:27 AM
He can retire right now at 26 and be a Hall of Famer.
Actually not.
The very first requirement for being placed on the HoF ballot is: "The player must have competed in ten seasons."
Trout is in his 8th season.
But yes, I do agree with the point I think you were making: Trout is a hell of a player, he will get 10 seasons in, and it's hard to imagine him not being a Hall of Famer.
Quote from: MU82 on June 13, 2018, 10:34:54 PM
Actually not.
The very first requirement for being placed on the HoF ballot is: "The player must have competed in ten seasons."
Trout is in his 8th season.
But yes, I do agree with the point I think you were making: Trout is a hell of a player, he will get 10 seasons in, and it's hard to imagine him not being a Hall of Famer.
I never realized that a Hall of Famer needed 10 years.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 10:45:35 PM
I never realized that a Hall of Famer needed 10 years.
Something tells me (without looking it up) was to keep black players out of the hall of fame after integration.
Nm
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 10:45:35 PM
I never realized that a Hall of Famer needed 10 years.
I had no idea either.
What if Trout was in a deadly car accident tomorrow, think they keep him out?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 13, 2018, 07:18:29 PM
MLB has had the video pulled. Unfortunate.
MLB's ass is in the jackpot! >:(
So here we are approximately 70 games in and I'm so very relieved that Stearns didn't listen to the blowhards who said that he HAD to sign a 'big name' starter to compete. Perhaps large market clubs can afford to have this happen but MKE simply can't. And I'm not trying to poke fun at the Crew's rival to the south but this is instructive, at least to me.
Darvish: 1-3, 4.95 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, DL, 31 years old, $126MM guaranteed ($21 per)
Arrieta: 5-4, 2.97 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 32 years old, $75MM guaranteed ($25 per)
Chacin: 6-1, 3.32 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 30 years old, $15.5MM guaranteed ($7.75 per)
So to me it looks as if the Phillies got themselves a decent enough deal in that Arrieta continues to perform well and is being paid up through age 35. But the deal for Darvish? And paying him that kind of money until he's 37? I guess I'm simply saying that the Crew simply can't have unproductive contracts (at least initially) like that. Braun's is tough enough to swallow as he waves at the ball with a runner on 3rd.
Stearns hasn't been perfect but he's been damn good.
Quote from: jsglow on June 13, 2018, 06:39:40 PM
So it's JUNE 13th and the Yankees are .013 ahead of the Sox but still 1/2 game back. Crazy.
Now it's June 14th and they're still in first place but are now a full game back. As long as their winning percentages stay above .667 and the games played differential is 6 this can be the case for a little while.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 14, 2018, 07:50:19 AM
Now it's June 14th and they're still in first place but are now a full game back. As long as their winning percentages stay above .667 and the games played differential is 6 this can be the case for a little while.
At some point somebody is playing doubleheaders every day! Weather this Spring is really going to hurt some clubs in August.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 14, 2018, 05:18:00 AM
I had no idea either.
What if Trout was in a deadly car accident tomorrow, think they keep him out?
I'm thinking they'd waive the rule. Didn't they waive they 5 year wait when Clemente died?
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 07:33:07 AM
So here we are approximately 70 games in and I'm so very relieved that Stearns didn't listen to the blowhards who said that he HAD to sign a 'big name' starter to compete. Perhaps large market clubs can afford to have this happen but MKE simply can't. And I'm not trying to poke fun at the Crew's rival to the south but this is instructive, at least to me.
Darvish: 1-3, 4.95 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, DL, 31 years old, $126MM guaranteed ($21 per)
Arrieta: 5-4, 2.97 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 32 years old, $75MM guaranteed ($25 per)
Chacin: 6-1, 3.32 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 30 years old, $15.5MM guaranteed ($7.75 per)
So to me it looks as if the Phillies got themselves a decent enough deal in that Arrieta continues to perform well and is being paid up through age 35. But the deal for Darvish? And paying him that kind of money until he's 37? I guess I'm simply saying that the Crew simply can't have unproductive contracts (at least initially) like that. Braun's is tough enough to swallow as he waves at the ball with a runner on 3rd.
Stearns hasn't been perfect but he's been damn good.
I'd love to know what happened between Arrieta and the Cubs. He gave the impression that he'd be more than willing to come back to the North side while the FO seemed to have completely moved on. I'm not sure if there was an unknown riff or the FO had concerns about his health or if the process involved some sort of "disrespect" from Theo and Jed. It was an awkward free agent situation. If given the choice at the time, I'd have to imagine the Cubs would take Arrieta at 3/$75M over what they gave Darvish.
Big name, big money free agents have not exactly been Theo's strength over the years. Jon Lester has been a good one and Zobrist was the WS MVP so it's tough to complain much about that one, but going back to Boston, there was Carl Crawford, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria and John Lackey. Then there's Edwin Jackson and Jason Heyward with the Cubs. Hopefully Darvish can get it together or else his name will be on that list as well. $40M for Tyler Chatwood isn't looking all that great so far either, especially when you see what a guy like Chacin is doing. Theo has done significantly better with short-term deals like Fowler, Coghlan, Hammel, Rondon, Duensing, etc. Don't get me wrong, Theo has built a champion and a perennial contender, which was his plan, but his big-time free agent track record isn't pretty.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 14, 2018, 08:09:14 AM
I'm thinking they'd waive the rule. Didn't they waive they 5 year wait when Clemente died?
Yes. I believe he was voted in a few months after his death.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 08:38:37 AM
I'd love to know what happened between Arrieta and the Cubs. He gave the impression that he'd be more than willing to come back to the North side while the FO seemed to have completely moved on. I'm not sure if there was an unknown riff or the FO had concerns about his health or if the process involved some sort of "disrespect" from Theo and Jed. It was an awkward free agent situation. If given the choice at the time, I'd have to imagine the Cubs would take Arrieta at 3/$75M over what they gave Darvish.
Steroids, duh.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 14, 2018, 09:13:18 AM
Steroids, duh.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/505/362/3f4.gif)
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 14, 2018, 09:13:18 AM
Steroids, duh.
Chris "Jesus" Bosio lost his ability to turn water into wine and that's the only reason Arrieta "figured it out" at 28 years old.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 08:38:37 AM
I'd love to know what happened between Arrieta and the Cubs. He gave the impression that he'd be more than willing to come back to the North side while the FO seemed to have completely moved on. I'm not sure if there was an unknown riff or the FO had concerns about his health or if the process involved some sort of "disrespect" from Theo and Jed. It was an awkward free agent situation. If given the choice at the time, I'd have to imagine the Cubs would take Arrieta at 3/$75M over what they gave Darvish.
Big name, big money free agents have not exactly been Theo's strength over the years. Jon Lester has been a good one and Zobrist was the WS MVP so it's tough to complain much about that one, but going back to Boston, there was Carl Crawford, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria and John Lackey. Then there's Edwin Jackson and Jason Heyward with the Cubs. Hopefully Darvish can get it together or else his name will be on that list as well. $40M for Tyler Chatwood isn't looking all that great so far either, especially when you see what a guy like Chacin is doing. Theo has done significantly better with short-term deals like Fowler, Coghlan, Hammel, Rondon, Duensing, etc. Don't get me wrong, Theo has built a champion and a perennial contender, which was his plan, but his big-time free agent track record isn't pretty.
I admit that I don't follow along super closely but it does seem like the Cubs made the wrong decision on that. Who knows if there's a back story. 90 miles north, it seems to me that the Crew simply had to get away from the 'buy our pitching' model. Now I'm all for 'renting'. If a CC Sabathia deal is available this year and that dude can carry them to a NL Pennant, great. But MKE simply has to home grow that stuff for the most part and/or find under the radar guys. I mean who isn't tickled by their starting rotation in light of the fact that Davies and Nelson have contributed next to zero? I think Suter is my favorite. Definition of 'scrapper'. And Couns has been brilliant in how he uses them all, especially the pen. If guys could just start hittin'.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 08:38:37 AM
I'd love to know what happened between Arrieta and the Cubs. He gave the impression that he'd be more than willing to come back to the North side while the FO seemed to have completely moved on. I'm not sure if there was an unknown riff or the FO had concerns about his health or if the process involved some sort of "disrespect" from Theo and Jed. It was an awkward free agent situation. If given the choice at the time, I'd have to imagine the Cubs would take Arrieta at 3/$75M over what they gave Darvish.
Big name, big money free agents have not exactly been Theo's strength over the years. Jon Lester has been a good one and Zobrist was the WS MVP so it's tough to complain much about that one, but going back to Boston, there was Carl Crawford, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria and John Lackey. Then there's Edwin Jackson and Jason Heyward with the Cubs. Hopefully Darvish can get it together or else his name will be on that list as well. $40M for Tyler Chatwood isn't looking all that great so far either, especially when you see what a guy like Chacin is doing. Theo has done significantly better with short-term deals like Fowler, Coghlan, Hammel, Rondon, Duensing, etc. Don't get me wrong, Theo has built a champion and a perennial contender, which was his plan, but his big-time free agent track record isn't pretty.
I think the Cubs thought process was that Darvish would age better than Arrieta would towards the end of the deal. Jake lost a few MPH last season and it must have been cause for concern for them. Also Darvish has already had Tommy John surgery while Arrieta hasn't. (Not to say that Darvish couldn't have it again.)
I know it's been reported that the Cubs offered Jake the same deal as Darvish the day before giving it to Darvish, and Jake turned it down. I think both sides may have just agreed to say that happened as Jake was a free agent at the time and not getting any offers. I have to believe Jake would have taken that deal considering what he settled for.
I agree with you on Theo. He has dominated drafts and trades, but in free agency his ass is in the jackpot now. It helps that a larger market team like the Cubs can absorb a disappointing free agent signing while a smaller market team like the Brewers would be decimated by it.
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 07:33:07 AM
So here we are approximately 70 games in and I'm so very relieved that Stearns didn't listen to the blowhards who said that he HAD to sign a 'big name' starter to compete. Perhaps large market clubs can afford to have this happen but MKE simply can't. And I'm not trying to poke fun at the Crew's rival to the south but this is instructive, at least to me.
Darvish: 1-3, 4.95 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, DL, 31 years old, $126MM guaranteed ($21 per)
Arrieta: 5-4, 2.97 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 32 years old, $75MM guaranteed ($25 per)
Chacin: 6-1, 3.32 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 30 years old, $15.5MM guaranteed ($7.75 per)
So to me it looks as if the Phillies got themselves a decent enough deal in that Arrieta continues to perform well and is being paid up through age 35. But the deal for Darvish? And paying him that kind of money until he's 37? I guess I'm simply saying that the Crew simply can't have unproductive contracts (at least initially) like that. Braun's is tough enough to swallow as he waves at the ball with a runner on 3rd.
Stearns hasn't been perfect but he's been damn good.
This will all work out in the Cubs favor, I mean, they had super-secret inside information on Arrieta.
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 07:33:07 AM
So here we are approximately 70 games in and I'm so very relieved that Stearns didn't listen to the blowhards who said that he HAD to sign a 'big name' starter to compete. Perhaps large market clubs can afford to have this happen but MKE simply can't. And I'm not trying to poke fun at the Crew's rival to the south but this is instructive, at least to me.
Darvish: 1-3, 4.95 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, DL, 31 years old, $126MM guaranteed ($21 per)
Arrieta: 5-4, 2.97 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 32 years old, $75MM guaranteed ($25 per)
Chacin: 6-1, 3.32 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 30 years old, $15.5MM guaranteed ($7.75 per)
So to me it looks as if the Phillies got themselves a decent enough deal in that Arrieta continues to perform well and is being paid up through age 35. But the deal for Darvish? And paying him that kind of money until he's 37? I guess I'm simply saying that the Crew simply can't have unproductive contracts (at least initially) like that. Braun's is tough enough to swallow as he waves at the ball with a runner on 3rd.
Stearns hasn't been perfect but he's been damn good.
I was going to post on this subject - except from the Brewers side of things. Don't know if you (like me) wanted them to try to sign Darvish or Cobb or Chatwood or Lynn, etc., but Stearns showed why he is where he is and I'm just a schmuck on a message board. Chacin has been the best FA signing of the entire off-season.
Quote from: Jockey on June 14, 2018, 10:01:53 AM
I was going to post on this subject - except from the Brewers side of things. Don't know if you (like me) wanted them to try to sign Darvish or Cobb or Chatwood or Lynn, etc., but Stearns showed why he is where he is and I'm just a schmuck on a message board. Chacin has been the best FA signing of the entire off-season.
Lorenzo Cain says Hi. Which just goes to show how good Stearns has been..
Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on June 14, 2018, 10:17:22 AM
Lorenzo Cain says Hi. Which just goes to show how good Stearns has been..
JD Martinez, Eric Hosmer and, oddly enough, Jake Arrieta are also waving hello...while Logan Morrison and Alex Cobb are hiding their faces hoping that no one sees them.
Also, let's not get carried away. Chacin has been very good but he's a 30yo journeyman who's on his sixth team in the past 5 seasons and has a FIP of 4.21 during that time. He's a solid #4 or maybe 3 starter but history tells us that his ERA isn't going to be in the mid-3's for all that much longer.
QuoteDylan Covey's last 3 starts were against the first place Brewers, Red Sox and Indians. His numbers: 1.00 ERA 18 IP, 4 BB, 19 K. Wins against Chris Sale and Trevor Bauer.
^^^ From a Chuch Garfien tweet. Covey continues to roll!
The Sox are 15-15 in their last 30. Get the AL Central title ready.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 10:31:26 AM
JD Martinez, Eric Hosmer and, oddly enough, Jake Arrieta are also waving hello...while Logan Morrison and Alex Cobb are hiding their faces hoping that no one sees them.
Also, let's not get carried away. Chacin has been very good but he's a 30yo journeyman who's on his sixth team in the past 5 seasons and has a FIP of 4.21 during that time. He's a solid #4 or maybe 3 starter but history tells us that his ERA isn't going to be in the mid-3's for all that much longer.
The same way the the Brewers are a .500 team that have just had a hot 2 1/2 months?
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 14, 2018, 10:37:36 AM
The same way the the Brewers are a .500 team that have just had a hot 2 1/2 months?
Based on their metrics at the time, the Brewers were projected to be about a .500 team but they were 10 games over. They're still playing slightly better than their metrics but it's much closer than it was a month ago. I still don't think they'll win 90 games (and neither does FanGraphs https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=Standings (https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=Standings))
Let me ask you this: Do you expect Chacin to have an ERA around 3.50 when the season ends?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 10:31:26 AM
JD Martinez, Eric Hosmer and, oddly enough, Jake Arrieta are also waving hello...while Logan Morrison and Alex Cobb are hiding their faces hoping that no one sees them.
Also, let's not get carried away. Chacin has been very good but he's a 30yo journeyman who's on his sixth team in the past 5 seasons and has a FIP of 4.21 during that time. He's a solid #4 or maybe 3 starter but history tells us that his ERA isn't going to be in the mid-3's for all that much longer.
I didn't say he was the best player.
For the money, he has been the best value so far. I meant to say "among pitchers" in the original post, but......
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 11:16:08 AM
Based on their metrics at the time, the Brewers were projected to be about a .500 team but they were 10 games over. They're still playing slightly better than their metrics but it's much closer than it was a month ago. I still don't think they'll win 90 games (and neither does FanGraphs https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=Standings (https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=Standings))
Let me ask you this: Do you expect Chacin to have an ERA around 3.50 when the season ends?
If he can stay healthy I don't see why not. His career ERA is 3.89, and if he continues to be in situations where he only has to face the oppositions order twice, which has been the strategy that Couns has been generally sticking with, this should be an above average year for him. He might not be able to stick in the 3.3s like he is right now, but his pitch count hasn't been as high other quality starters, which suggests that he won't fade as much in the dog days.
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 14, 2018, 11:29:52 AM
If he can stay healthy I don't see why not. His career ERA is 3.89, and if he continues to be in situations where he only has to face the oppositions order twice, which has been the strategy that Couns has been generally sticking with, this should be an above average year for him. He might not be able to stick in the 3.3s like he is right now, but his pitch count hasn't been as high other quality starters, which suggests that he won't fade as much in the dog days.
Fair enough. You have a solid points though I still disagree. However, as a life-long Cubs fan, I can obviously respect your optimistic fandom.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 10:31:26 AM
JD Martinez, Eric Hosmer and, oddly enough, Jake Arrieta are also waving hello...while Logan Morrison and Alex Cobb are hiding their faces hoping that no one sees them.
Also, let's not get carried away. Chacin has been very good but he's a 30yo journeyman who's on his sixth team in the past 5 seasons and has a FIP of 4.21 during that time. He's a solid #4 or maybe 3 starter but history tells us that his ERA isn't going to be in the mid-3's for all that much longer.
6-0 with a 2.66 ERA over his past dozen starts. Yep. Chacin AND the Crew are on the brink of falling apart. I don't even know why they show up every day. ::)
Quote from: Jockey on June 14, 2018, 10:01:53 AM
I was going to post on this subject - except from the Brewers side of things. Don't know if you (like me) wanted them to try to sign Darvish or Cobb or Chatwood or Lynn, etc., but Stearns showed why he is where he is and I'm just a schmuck on a message board. Chacin has been the best FA signing of the entire off-season.
Truthfully Jockey, I didn't want a 'big name'. I was too fearful of another Lohse or Suppan fiasco.
Brewer player or team does better than expected. Merritt says its a temporary hot streak.
Cub player or team does worse than expected. Merritt says that it's temporary because they know how to win when it matters.
;D
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 11:16:08 AM
Based on their metrics at the time, the Brewers were projected to be about a .500 team but they were 10 games over. They're still playing slightly better than their metrics but it's much closer than it was a month ago. I still don't think they'll win 90 games (and neither does FanGraphs https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=Standings (https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=Standings))
Let me ask you this: Do you expect Chacin to have an ERA around 3.50 when the season ends?
They might come down to earth a little, but I really highly doubt that a team that is 14 over .500 over the first 68 games will play 2 under .500 the last 94. Fangraphs thinks that the Cardinals, Angels, D-Backs, As, Rockies, Giants, Pirates, Twins, Blue Jays, and Mets all will have better W% than the Brewers for the rest of the season. Something is wrong with their formula that underestimates what the Crew has and will do.
FiveThirtyEight says 92-70 (and still three behind the Cubs), which seems far more reasonable. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-mlb-predictions/
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 14, 2018, 12:16:25 PM
Brewer player or team does better than expected. Merritt says its a temporary hot streak.
Cub player or team does worse than expected. Merritt says that it's temporary because they know how to win when it matters.
;D
But let's remember not to get too far ahead. What was it, 2015 when the Crew had won 50 by my birthday at the end of June? Lots and lots of baseball left.
Anyone heard anything about Nelson lately? Long tossing?
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 14, 2018, 12:19:22 PM
They might come down to earth a little, but I really highly doubt that a team that is 14 over .500 over the first 68 games will play 2 under .500 the last 94. Fangraphs thinks that the Cardinals, Angels, D-Backs, As, Rockies, Giants, Pirates, Twins, Blue Jays, and Mets all will have better W% than the Brewers for the rest of the season. Something is wrong with their formula that underestimates what the Crew has and will do.
FiveThirtyEight says 92-70 (and still three behind the Cubs), which seems far more reasonable. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-mlb-predictions/
I thought the same thing too and wondered how their formula was driven because that does seem far fetched, especially after the trading deadline when I think historically winners do more winning while losers do more losing.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 14, 2018, 12:16:25 PM
Brewer player or team does better than expected. Merritt says its a temporary hot streak.
Cub player or team does worse than expected. Merritt says that it's temporary because they know how to win when it matters.
;D
Forgive me for believing in the team with a young core, 3 straight NLCS appearances and a World Series title while hesitating to buy-in on an inexperienced veteran team that faltered down the stretch last season ;)
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 12:20:56 PM
But let's remember not to get too far ahead. What was it, 2015 when the Crew had won 50 by my birthday at the end of June? Lots and lots of baseball left.
Anyone heard anything about Nelson lately? Long tossing?
Listened to an interview with Brewers announcer Jeff Levering yesterday. He said he does not expect Nelson to pitch this year. I don't know if he has any inside info.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 12:35:16 PM
Forgive me for believing in the team with a young core, 3 straight NLCS appearances and a World Series title while hesitating to buy-in on an inexperienced veteran team that faltered down the stretch last season ;)
The team that "faltered" to the tune of 86 wins when they were projected to lose 100 games by Bleacher Report, 90 games by USA Today, 89 games by FanGraphs, etc. going into the season. And they didn't add anything significant in the offseason or anything.
They had a .555 winning percentage in September (and their 1 game in October) after having a .522 winning percentage going into September and a .549 winning percentage at the All Star break. Not quite sure where the narrative that they "faltered down the stretch last season" is coming from.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 12:50:19 PM
The team that "faltered" to the tune of 86 wins when they were projected to lose 100 games by Bleacher Report, 90 games by USA Today, 89 games by FanGraphs, etc. going into the season. And they didn't add anything significant in the offseason or anything.
They had a .555 winning percentage in September (and their 1 game in October) after having a .522 winning percentage going into September and a .549 winning percentage at the All Star break. Not quite sure where the narrative that they "faltered down the stretch last season" is coming from.
They had a 5.5 game lead at the All-Star Break and missed the playoffs. I would say that's faltering down the stretch.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 12:50:19 PM
The team that "faltered" to the tune of 86 wins when they were projected to lose 100 games by Bleacher Report, 90 games by USA Today, 89 games by FanGraphs, etc. going into the season. And they didn't add anything significant in the offseason or anything.
They had a .555 winning percentage in September (and their 1 game in October) after having a .522 winning percentage going into September and a .549 winning percentage at the All Star break. Not quite sure where the narrative that they "faltered down the stretch last season" is coming from.
The Brewers were up 5.5 games in the division at the All-Star Break, lost that lead 12 games later, played .500 baseball for the final 70 games of the season, including a 2-5 stretch in late September and finished 5.5 games back in the division. That's an 11-game swing in 2.5 months. That's where the narrative that they "faltered down the stretch last season" is coming from.
It's not exactly a hot take to believe the Cubs are going to win the division.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 12:35:16 PM
Forgive me for believing in the team with a young core, 3 straight NLCS appearances and a World Series title while hesitating to buy-in on an inexperienced veteran team that faltered down the stretch last season ;)
I don't think anyone is selling the Cubs short. They
should win the division. They
could win the Pennant. And as was just said, the Crew really didn't falter. They just weren't good enough to quite make the postseason. Assuming that they continue to play decent ball, this year they very likely will. That's pretty darn impressive.
Also, MLB took down the video because the CBA with the umpires does not allow for mic'd umpires. They are trying to figure out where the video even came from.
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
I don't think anyone is selling the Cubs short. They should win the division. They could win the Pennant. And as was just said, the Crew really didn't falter. They just weren't good enough to quite make the postseason. Assuming that they continue to play decent ball, this year they very likely will. That's pretty darn impressive.
No, they faltered.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 01:02:23 PM
The Brewers were up 5.5 games in the division at the All-Star Break, lost that lead 12 games later, played .500 baseball for the final 70 games of the season, including a 2-5 stretch in late September and finished 5.5 games back in the division. That's an 11-game swing in 2.5 months. That's where the narrative that they "faltered down the stretch last season" is coming from.
But honestly, isn't that really more of a story about how the initially struggling Cubs picked up the pace? The Cubs were 43-45 at the All Star break. And the Crew had a .555 winning percentage in September as was pointed out. The Cubs were simply better and played that way in the second half.
Sigh, I was just razzing Merritt a little bit. Didn't mean this to be another pissing match.
The Brewers didn't falter down the stretch. They faltered right after the all star break. They lost 11/14 and then played pretty much even with the cubs the rest of the way
Where the Brewers were in the standings had nothing to do with them "faltering." It had everything to do with a far superior baseball team finally playing like a superior baseball team. The Brewers didn't "falter down the stretch."
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 01:02:23 PM
The Brewers were up 5.5 games in the division at the All-Star Break, lost that lead 12 games later, played .500 baseball for the final 70 games of the season, including a 2-5 stretch in late September and finished 5.5 games back in the division. That's an 11-game swing in 2.5 months. That's where the narrative that they "faltered down the stretch last season" is coming from.
I guess if mid July is "down the stretch," sure, you got me!
The Brewers had a .518 winning percentage 81 (the first half of the season, since Chicago fans seem to be struggling with the math here) games into the season. They had a .543 winning percentage in their last 81 (second half of the season) games. They had a .555 winning percentage in September (and October 1).
So in a season where the Brewers' overall winning percentage was .531, they "faltered down the stretch" with winning percentages of .543 in the second half of the season and .555 in the last month of the season?
Makes sense.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 01:35:57 PM
Where the Brewers were in the standings had nothing to do with them "faltering." It had everything to do with a far superior baseball team finally playing like a superior baseball team. The Brewers didn't "falter down the stretch."
I guess if mid July is "down the stretch," sure, you got me!
Yet it surprising that Cubs fans are confident that this far superior baseball team will win the division?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 14, 2018, 01:37:50 PM
Yet it surprising that Cubs fans are confident that this far superior baseball team will win the division?
Who said it was surprising that Cubs fans are confident that their team will win the division?
And who said that this year's team is a far superior baseball team?
Your reading ability (I don't think it's even comprehension, I think you're just imagining what people are saying? I really don't know what you're reading...) is struggling quite a bit lately.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 01:35:57 PM
Where the Brewers were in the standings had nothing to do with them "faltering." It had everything to do with a far superior baseball team finally playing like a superior baseball team. The Brewers didn't "falter down the stretch."
I guess if mid July is "down the stretch," sure, you got me!
The Brewers had a .518 winning percentage 81 (the first half of the season, since Chicago fans seem to be struggling with the math here) games into the season. They had a .543 winning percentage in their last 81 (second half of the season) games. They had a .555 winning percentage in September (and October 1).
So in a season where the Brewers' overall winning percentage was .531, they "faltered down the stretch" with winning percentages of .543 in the second half of the season and .555 in the last month of the season?
Makes sense.
Does going 4-6 from September 20-30 (including a sub-.500 7-game homestand) count enough as "down the stretch" for you? Keep in mind that the Brewers missed the postseason by 1 game.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 14, 2018, 01:37:50 PM
Yet it surprising that Cubs fans are confident that this far superior baseball team will win the division?
I'm not overly confident, but with the smack talk by Brewers fans earlier in the year, it was good to provide some push back.
Back to the Darvish/Arrieta subject, there was no rift of any kind with Arrieta and the front office. The team broached an extension a number of times while Jake was still under team control but at the time there was no way Boras and Arrieta were going to give the team any kind of deal. The same held true once he hit free agency. This is from The Athletic on the very topic:
"Sources said there was too much history between the sides to ever think the Cubs could realistically put together a contract with Philadelphia's structure. There was a precedent set with Jon Lester's six-year, $155 million megadeal plus the reference points from the long-term discussions during Arrieta's arbitration years."
Also regarding the preference for Darvish:
"The Cubs made Darvish their clear priority, projecting his upside and how their pitching infrastructure might unlock his full potential. The contract's average annual value also fit nicely into the team's luxury-tax calculations."
There were concerns with Arrieta's command and a drop in his velocity. His velocity on his sinker and slider are both up by 1.2 and 1.5 MPH respectively this year.
His pitch mix has changed quite a bit from his dominant 2015 season. He's throwing the sinker a lot more and the slider a lot less. In 2015 he threw the sinker about 44% of the time and this year that is up to about 62% while the slider has dropped from about 30% to 15%.
His K/9 has dropped from 8.72 last year to 6.20 so far this year but he's inducing a ton of soft contact and has been very good. He's definitely a different kind of pitcher, at least so far. It'll be interesting to see how he continues to perform - his last two starts were not great.
Ultimately, it's too early judge either contract.
There have been some asinine comments in these threads over the years, but the "faltering" one is right up there. The Cubs played almost .670 ball in the second half. A lot of teams would lose a modest division lead over that period against a team that hot.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 14, 2018, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh, I was just razzing Merritt a little bit. Didn't mean this to be another pissing match.
The Brewers didn't falter down the stretch. They faltered right after the all star break. They lost 11/14 and then played pretty much even with the cubs the rest of the way
Somehow this has made someone's conjecture of Mike Trout being killed in a car crash not the worst part of the last few pages of this thread.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 01:44:45 PM
Who said it was surprising that Cubs fans are confident that their team will win the division?
And who said that this year's team is a far superior baseball team?
Your reading ability (I don't think it's even comprehension, I think you're just imagining what people are saying? I really don't know what you're reading...) is struggling quite a bit lately.
These quotes below are questioning why we would be confident in the Cubs winning the division.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 13, 2018, 12:05:04 PM
So you are confident because your bullpen is being overused, Darvish will be a different guy than he has for the last year (4.50 ERA in the 2nd half last year --not counting the disaster of the playoffs-- and we know about this year), that Chatwood can't throw strikes and needs to go to Iowa, .280 is close to .300 and Javy Baez is streaky? Got it.
;)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 14, 2018, 12:16:25 PM
Cub player or team does worse than expected. Merritt says that it's temporary because they know how to win when it matters.
;D
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 14, 2018, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh, I was just razzing Merritt a little bit. Didn't mean this to be another pissing match.
The Brewers didn't falter down the stretch. They faltered right after the all star break. They lost 11/14 and then played pretty much even with the cubs the rest of the way
I'm remembering that stretch now. That was pretty tough.
As to September, what I recall was the Crew failing to maintain playoff pace after Nelson got hurt. Had he remained healthy, I sincerely believe they would have made the playoffs despite the significant WC lead that Colorado held. You guys remember Couns going with 'bullpen days'? Were they even forced to reinsert Garza into the rotation? Don't think it got that desperate. They gave it all they had. I remember being proud went they got to the last Saturday.
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 14, 2018, 01:59:39 PM
There have been some asinine comments in these threads over the years, but the "faltering" one is right up there. The Cubs played almost .670 ball in the second half. A lot of teams would lose a modest division lead over that period against a team that hot.
The division is one thing but what about that second Wild Card team that beat out the Brewers but played sub-.500 baseball from July on?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 02:14:36 PM
The division is one thing but what about that second Wild Card team that beat out the Brewers but played sub-.500 baseball from July on?
Well that team played .570 baseball in the first half, which I think that is why they play, like, the whole season. And talking about standings in June is a stupid waste of time.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 14, 2018, 02:01:52 PM
These quotes below are questioning why we would be confident in the Cubs winning the division.
As the author of one of those quotes I can tell you that you misinterpreted it.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 14, 2018, 02:18:13 PM
As the author of one of those quotes I can tell you that you misinterpreted it.
As the author of the other it was just a snarky recap of something TT had himself said.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 02:14:36 PM
The division is one thing but what about that second Wild Card team that beat out the Brewers but played sub-.500 baseball from July on?
The Brewers were 7.5 and 4 games back of the two teams that ended up with a Wild Card spot as of July 1 last year. They missed the Wild Card by 1 game. AKA they made up 3 games "down the stretch," since the entire second half of the season is "down the stretch."
I literally have no clue what you're talking about. You're reaching big time. The Brewers did not "falter down the stretch" last year, no matter how hard you try to twist and turn to make it fit your agenda.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 02:14:36 PM
The division is one thing but what about that second Wild Card team that beat out the Brewers but played sub-.500 baseball from July on?
Merritt, the Rockies were 52-39 at the All Star break. Now you're just being an a-clown for the fun of it. At least make a reasoned argument.
Bottom line. The Crew won 86 games last year. Way better than anyone anywhere would have predicted. Were they as good as the Cubs? No. Are they this year? Maybe. Time will tell.
All im hearing in all of these arguments is, the brewers didnt make it eh? ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 14, 2018, 02:24:32 PM
All im hearing in all of these arguments is, the brewers didnt make it eh? ;D ;D ;D ;D
No one disagrees with that. No one expected it. And this year's team seems to have built on that initial success. And that's where it stands.
Now if the Cubs don't make it and end up being the 1985 Bears. ?-(
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 02:19:29 PM
The Brewers were 7.5 and 4 games back of the two teams that ended up with a Wild Card spot as of July 1 last year. They missed the Wild Card by 1 game. AKA they made up 3 games "down the stretch," since the entire second half of the season is "down the stretch."
I literally have no clue what you're talking about. You're reaching big time. The Brewers did not "falter down the stretch" last year, no matter how hard you try to twist and turn to make it fit your agenda.
I have no "agenda" and I'm not twisting and turning at all. The Brewers went 35-35 in their last 70 games. You clearly don't consider that "down the stretch," which is fine. However, you also choose to ignore the fact that they missed the Wild Card in large part due to a 4-6 stretch in games 152-161. During that stretch, they blew a game in Pittsburgh, blew a game against the Cubs and got shutout at home by Homer Bailey and his 6.96 ERA. I'd consider that "faltering" whether you do or not.
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 02:28:32 PM
No one disagrees with that. No one expected it. And this year's team seems to have built on that initial success. And that's where it stands.
Now if the Cubs don't make it and end up being the 1985 Bears. ?-(
Fine by me. All I wanted was 1 world series. I got two extra trips to the nlcs.
Quote from: WarriorDad on June 14, 2018, 01:54:13 PM
I'm not overly confident, but with the smack talk by Brewers fans earlier in the year, it was good to provide some push back.
How are the Angels doing? Scoscia good?
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 02:23:19 PM
Merritt, the Rockies were 52-39 at the All Star break. Now you're just being an a-clown for the fun of it. At least make a reasoned argument.
Bottom line. The Crew won 86 games last year. Way better than anyone anywhere would have predicted. Were they as good as the Cubs? No. Are they this year? Maybe. Time will tell.
The Brewers were 50-41 at the ASB (2 games worse). They didn't need to set the world on fire to catch Colorado.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 02:44:10 PM
The Brewers were 50-41 at the ASB (2 games worse). They didn't need to set the world on fire to catch Colorado.
We agree. And their first two weeks after the break set those wheels in motion.
Wait, Mike Trout is dead?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 02:36:40 PM
I have no "agenda" and I'm not twisting and turning at all. The Brewers went 35-35 in their last 70 games. You clearly don't consider that "down the stretch," which is fine. However, you also choose to ignore the fact that they missed the Wild Card in large part due to a 4-6 stretch in games 152-161. During that stretch, they blew a game in Pittsburgh, blew a game against the Cubs and got shutout at home by Homer Bailey and his 6.96 ERA. I'd consider that "faltering" whether you do or not.
No, I don't consider the last 44% of a season to be "down the stretch." To each their own I suppose.
The Brewers were also 9-2 in the 11 games prior to game 152 to get back into it, yet still a game back going into your 10 game stretch. So sure, pick out one 10 game stretch that fits your agenda. Just about every team will have a sub .500 10 game stretch in their last month.
You got it wrong. The Brewers were quite strong down the stretch. .555 over the last month of the season.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 03:43:19 PM
No, I don't consider the last 44% of a season to be "down the stretch." To each their own I suppose.
The Brewers were also 9-2 in the 11 games prior to game 152 to get back into it, yet still a game back going into your 10 game stretch. So sure, pick out one 10 game stretch that fits your agenda. Just about every team will have a sub .500 10 game stretch in their last month.
You got it wrong. The Brewers were quite strong down the stretch. .555 over the last month of the season.
You've basically resorted to arguing semantics. Yes, I picked out a 10 game stretch late in the season when they faltered. To a sane, rational person that would provide strong evidence that they faltered late in the season. You have proven to be neither sane nor rational so I don't expect you to follow that logic. It's cool though. Enjoy the rest of your day!
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 04:38:49 PM
You've basically resorted to arguing semantics. Yes, I picked out a 10 game stretch late in the season when they faltered. To a sane, rational person that would provide strong evidence that they faltered late in the season. You have proven to be neither sane nor rational so I don't expect you to follow that logic. It's cool though. Enjoy the rest of your day!
Except any possible way you look at it the Brewers played BETTER down the stretch than they had throughout the rest of the season.
But yes. You are rational, sane, and logical. Going from calling the final 43% of a 162 game season "down the stretch" to picking out one 10 game stretch and saying that's "down the stretch" in the same argument. Lol. Again, you got it wrong. But thank you, I will enjoy the rest my day.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 04:38:49 PM
You've basically resorted to arguing semantics. Yes, I picked out a 10 game stretch late in the season when they faltered. To a sane, rational person that would provide strong evidence that they faltered late in the season. You have proven to be neither sane nor rational so I don't expect you to follow that logic. It's cool though. Enjoy the rest of your day!
Or it seems like cherry picking stats...there is two sides to every story, especially when you are looking at a 162 game season. Everybody's definition of "down the stretch" is different. They finished the year 3-1, that is more down the stretch so they did not falter down the stretch!
Bottom line is they finished 1 game out of the playoffs it does not matter if that 1 game came during a random 10 game stretch in September or when they went 4-6 in a 10 game stretch in April. The reality is, as one poster said, they lost it right after the all star break last year. They do not play putrid baseball during that stretch they are in the playoffs, but that is baseball.
Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on June 14, 2018, 03:13:54 PM
Wait, Mike Trout is dead?
Yeah I killed him a couple pages ago.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 14, 2018, 04:38:49 PM
You've basically resorted to arguing semantics. Yes, I picked out a 10 game stretch late in the season when they faltered. To a sane, rational person that would provide strong evidence that they faltered late in the season. You have proven to be neither sane nor rational so I don't expect you to follow that logic. It's cool though. Enjoy the rest of your day!
The Brewers' best month (in terms of winning percentage) in the 2017 season was September (plus 1 game in October) last season.
That doesn't feel like "faltering down the stretch" to me, but what do I know, I'm illogical, insane, and irrational 🤷🏻♂️😂
Quote from: wadesworld on June 14, 2018, 05:33:14 PM
The Brewers' best month (in terms of winning percentage) in the 2017 season was September (plus 1 game in October) last season.
That doesn't feel like "faltering down the stretch" to me, but what do I know, I'm illogical, insane, and irrational 🤷🏻♂️😂
Wades. Enough.
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 06:40:30 PM
Wades. Enough.
Thanks, but if someone's going to call someone else irrational, insane, and illogical they should at least not be able to be proven factually wrong.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 14, 2018, 09:22:03 AM
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/505/362/3f4.gif)
Little Barrel Man, aina?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 13, 2018, 11:09:51 PM
Something tells me (without looking it up) was to keep black players out of the hall of fame after integration.
The 10-year rule was initiated in 1947, so there certainly could be truth to that. But it would only work against the older black players that first got a chance to play after that.
https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/rules/voting-rules-history
The Clemente exception is also in those rules, but that exception only allows the waiving of the 5-year wait rule. There would have to be a new rule to let in a player who died but didn't have the 10 years. Would it be possible for such a new rule to be initiated? Sure. But I certainly wouldn't assume that the late, great Mike Trout would get such a benefit.
Quote from: jsglow on June 14, 2018, 12:09:29 PM
Truthfully Jockey, I didn't want a 'big name'. I was too fearful of another Lohse or Suppan fiasco.
Oh god, Suppan. I had blissfully blocked that name from my memory until you brought back all the pain. Curse you glow!
(Please don't say Kotsay, don't say Kotsay, don't say Kotsay....)
If you're the Brewers, are you calling the Mets and offering a package starting with Hiura and Burnes for DeGrom?
Quote from: MUDish on June 14, 2018, 11:32:21 PM
If you're the Brewers, are you calling the Mets and offering a package starting with Hiura and Burnes for DeGrom?
\
Complete game changer. Dominant starter, not a free agent until 2021. It would likely take those two and a bit more. It would have to be a Sale like deal you would think, and he commanded the number 1 prospect in the game as well as the guy who was like the number 5 pitching prospect.
You would have to think there would be a lot of teams in on him if the Mets decided to move him. If the Braves decided they wanted him, I don't think anyone could top their offers.
Quote from: TSmith34 on June 14, 2018, 10:55:23 PM
Oh god, Suppan. I had blissfully blocked that name from my memory until you brought back all the pain. Curse you glow!
(Please don't say Kotsay, don't say Kotsay, don't say Kotsay....)
What's funny is that I had this vague recollection about some horrible FA pitcher and looked him up. I'm sure he's a wonderful man with a nice family but....... :o
Quote from: MUDish on June 14, 2018, 11:32:21 PM
If you're the Brewers, are you calling the Mets and offering a package starting with Hiura and Burnes for DeGrom?
Until I see Stearns make a move like this, I won't believe that he will. It would have to be for a player with multiple years of control, like deGrom, but I'd still be surprised if he got in this sweepstakes.
Unless of course Stearns knows something negative about one of our top prospects that no one else does. I think he was willing to make the Lewis Brinson trade in large part because he knew Brinson wasn't really that great (he's batting .174). If Stearns knows, for example, that Hiura will never be able to play the field, he might be more willing to part with him.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 15, 2018, 06:42:06 AM
Until I see Stearns make a move like this, I won't believe that he will. It would have to be for a player with multiple years of control, like deGrom, but I'd still be surprised if he got in this sweepstakes.
Unless of course Stearns knows something negative about one of our top prospects that no one else does. I think he was willing to make the Lewis Brinson trade in large part because he knew Brinson wasn't really that great (he's batting .174). If Stearns knows, for example, that Hiura will never be able to play the field, he might be more willing to part with him.
Getting a guy like deGrom hurts prospect wise there is no doubt about it. But he is a top 5 or so starter in the game, those guys aren't easy to get, especially for the next 3 years at less that 25 mil per season. He could definitely swing the balance in the NL Central, and maybe even the NL. Oh, and he has been dominant in the postseason as well.
If I am the Mets, I would start my asking price at Hader, Hiura, Burnes and more. I would also have basically no expectation of the Brewers trading Hader, but you have to ask.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 15, 2018, 08:37:34 AM
Getting a guy like deGrom hurts prospect wise there is no doubt about it. But he is a top 5 or so starter in the game, those guys aren't easy to get, especially for the next 3 years at less that 25 mil per season. He could definitely swing the balance in the NL Central, and maybe even the NL. Oh, and he has been dominant in the postseason as well.
If I am the Mets, I would start my asking price at Hader, Hiura, Burnes and more. I would also have basically no expectation of the Brewers trading Hader, but you have to ask.
I totally agree, if I'm the Mets, I'd insist on Hader, as Hiura and Burnes as at least a starting point. Hiura and Burnes wouldn't be enough. I don't believe at all the Brewers would include Hader either.
DeGrom would be quite the interesting trade watch. I know the Cubs/Sox did the Quintana deal last year, but I think there'd be more of a hesitation by the Mets to trade DeGrom to the Yankees (which I think is dumb, you take the best offer you can get, regardless of who the trading partner is). Same thing with the Mets talking to the Braves, I think the Mets wouldn't want to trade DeGrom in their division for the same reason, I think it matters to the Mets on the perception of who they get back and where they possibly trade him to.
I would be surprised if we ever see Hiura in a Brewers uniform, so long as other teams are interested enough in him that he could be a cornerstone piece of a major deal. The combination of the Crew's need for starting pitching, their likely reticence to pay for it on the free agent market, and the ability to find very serviceable middle infielders relatively inexpensively on the FA market (especially if you don't have a ton of $ earmarked for a #2 starter type), leads me to think he'll be dealt within the next 14 months.
Really, it seems to me that the Crew has underperformed at middle infield these last 2 years so giving away a potential good one?
BUSTED!
https://www.tmj4.com/sports/baseball/milwaukee-brewers/chicago-cubs-busted-smuggling-spotted-cow-beer-back-to-illinois
Quote from: MUBurrow on June 15, 2018, 09:11:10 AM
I would be surprised if we ever see Hiura in a Brewers uniform, so long as other teams are interested enough in him that he could be a cornerstone piece of a major deal.
I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree. The depth up the middle is suspect, especially if Arcia continues to struggle. If Dubon wasn't coming off an ACL injury, I could see it a little more.
Quote from: jsglow on June 15, 2018, 06:37:56 AM
What's funny is that I had this vague recollection about some horrible FA pitcher and looked him up. I'm sure he's a wonderful man with a nice family but....... :o
Here's jeff, indicating the trajectory of his ERA with each start.
(https://media2.fdncms.com/riverfronttimes/imager/u/slideshow/2588573/suppanthumbs.jpg)
Well played!
And yet he got paid $58M ($34M/4 years from the Brewers) for a career 4.86 FIP and -1.5 Adjusted Wins above average.
Quote from: MU82 on June 14, 2018, 10:40:26 PM
The 10-year rule was initiated in 1947, so there certainly could be truth to that. But it would only work against the older black players that first got a chance to play after that.
https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/rules/voting-rules-history
The Clemente exception is also in those rules, but that exception only allows the waiving of the 5-year wait rule. There would have to be a new rule to let in a player who died but didn't have the 10 years. Would it be possible for such a new rule to be initiated? Sure. But I certainly wouldn't assume that the late, great Mike Trout would get such a benefit.
I'd have to look more into it, but I do find the rule of 10 to be in direct regards to black integration. Never knew about that rule before this thread.
So have MLB players been kneeling for the anthem? :-\
Huge attendance drop this year.
Quote from: Jockey on June 15, 2018, 01:36:07 PM
So have MLB players been kneeling for the anthem? :-\
Huge attendance drop this year.
I'm guessing weather has to be a major factor.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 15, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
I'm guessing weather has to be a major factor.
10 teams already 10+ games back in the division can't help either.
Bad weather + Blatant tanking = Poor attendance
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on June 15, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
I'm guessing weather has to be a major factor.
That was my 1st guess, but Toronto and Miami are way down and weather is no factor for them.
In reality, attendance is down for the same reason it is down in the NFL. The way we digest sports is changing.
As of now, it seems like only the NBA is adjusting.
Quote from: Jockey on June 15, 2018, 05:54:06 PM
That was my 1st guess, but Toronto and Miami are way down and weather is no factor for them.
In reality, attendance is down for the same reason it is down in the NFL. The way we digest sports is changing.
As of now, it seems like only the NBA is adjusting.
Those are both terrible teams, with fanbases renowned to be fickle.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on June 14, 2018, 12:19:22 PM
They might come down to earth a little, but I really highly doubt that a team that is 14 over .500 over the first 68 games will play 2 under .500 the last 94. Fangraphs thinks that the Cardinals, Angels, D-Backs, As, Rockies, Giants, Pirates, Twins, Blue Jays, and Mets all will have better W% than the Brewers for the rest of the season. Something is wrong with their formula that underestimates what the Crew has and will do.
FiveThirtyEight says 92-70 (and still three behind the Cubs), which seems far more reasonable. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-mlb-predictions/
I just took a look at Fangraphs this morning for fun. As of today, their model has the Crew playing 3 games below .500 the rest of the way. Moreover, fully 2/3 of the National League teams are expected to outperform them the rest of the way. Wow, why even go to the ballpark?
Quote from: jsglow on June 16, 2018, 07:09:12 AM
I just took a look at Fangraphs this morning for fun. As of today, their model has the Crew playing 3 games below .500 the rest of the way. Moreover, fully 2/3 of the National League teams are expected to outperform them the rest of the way. Wow, why even go to the ballpark?
I would guess that is based on expected regression in 1-run games.
They don't take into account that their is a reason they have won so many close games - the best bullpen in the league.
Quote from: Jockey on June 16, 2018, 03:59:56 PM
I would guess that is based on expected regression in 1-run games.
They don't take into account that their is a reason they have won so many close games - the best bullpen in the league.
It just seems like a crappy model to me.
Let us not jinx things. I recall the year they were up 10 games on the division before the AS break.
Absolutely. But to predict that a .600 club is going to play below .500 (meaning that's their median prediction) just seems crazy. The only team the Crew seemingly loses to is Chicago! (Cubs AND Sox) :o
Quote from: jsglow on June 16, 2018, 04:18:45 PM
It just seems like a crappy model to me.
That's why I argue against Auburn's numbers sometimes. They can tell us a lot, but they tell us more after the fact than being predictive.
Quote from: jsglow on June 16, 2018, 04:18:45 PM
It just seems like a crappy model to me.
The models work on a macro-level but can break down on a micro-level.
The model is waiting for Junior Guerra to stop pitching so well, Jesus Aguilar to stop raking, the Brewers record in one run games to regress towards .500, etc.
It's predicting what should happen, not what will happen. It uses the past to try to predict the future, but the future is uncertain.
Ah, the Brewers.
https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2018/6/17/17473318/adrian-houser-barf-throw-up-vomit-pitching-mound-brewers-phillies
Quote from: Jockey on June 16, 2018, 03:59:56 PM
They don't take into account that their is a reason they have won so many close games - the best bullpen in the league.
Third best. Behind the Cubs. :P
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/128/order/false (http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/128/order/false)
The Cubs haven't scored a run since Saturday and moved into 1st place.
You gotta love baseball!
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 19, 2018, 10:18:45 AM
The Cubs haven't scored a run since Saturday and moved into 1st place.
You gotta love baseball!
Will this become a trend? Will other clubs try to emulate the Cubbies "success"?
That's been their problem all season. The first two games against the Cardinals, they combine for 19 runs then get shut out in the third game. They score 7 on the Brewers in the first game, then get shut out the next two.
I saw they are averaging over 7 runs a game in their wins and under 2 in their losses. Either everyone is hot or everyone is cold any given day.
Another reason to love baseball.
Juan Soto officially hit his 6th career MLB HR 5 days before his MLB debut.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 19, 2018, 11:16:04 AM
Another reason to love baseball.
Juan Soto officially hit his 6th career MLB HR 5 days before his MLB debut.
\
Soto has been quite outstanding. Not bad for a 19 year old.
Brewers lose 3 straight...move back into 1st place.
Hey, Joe! Where was Morrow?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 19, 2018, 03:58:00 PM
Brewers lose 3 straight...move back into 1st place.
Hey, Joe! Where was Morrow?
Back tightness. But definitely better options than Justin Wilson.
So, what do the Brewers do with Peralta?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 19, 2018, 10:18:45 AM
The Cubs haven't scored a run since Saturday and moved into 1st place.
You gotta love baseball!
PEDs
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 19, 2018, 08:13:24 PM
Back tightness. But definitely better options than Justin Wilson.
Such as?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 19, 2018, 10:34:30 PM
Such as?
I would have saved either Strop or Cishek for that situation and used Wilson earlier in the game.
I know Wilson has save experience, but since coming to the Cubs he walks way too many guys for a closer role.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 19, 2018, 10:44:09 PM
I would have saved either Strop or Cishek for that situation and used Wilson earlier in the game.
I know Wilson has save experience, but since coming to the Cubs he walks way too many guys for a closer role.
Yeah, can't really do that hindsight there. Cishek ended up pitching in both games. Strop came in with a guy on and nobody out in the 7th with Turner up and then pitched the 8th as well.
Wilson came in during a clean inning with the decent matchups. The real issue was the Cubs failing in two different situations to add to their lead with guys on 3rd and less than two outs, which has obviously been a season-long issue.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 19, 2018, 08:13:24 PM
Back tightness.
https://deadspin.com/cubs-reliever-brandon-morrow-says-he-hurt-himself-while-1826985466 (https://deadspin.com/cubs-reliever-brandon-morrow-says-he-hurt-himself-while-1826985466)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 20, 2018, 09:02:41 AM
Yeah, can't really do that hindsight there. Cishek ended up pitching in both games. Strop came in with a guy on and nobody out in the 7th with Turner up and then pitched the 8th as well.
Wilson came in during a clean inning with the decent matchups. The real issue was the Cubs failing in two different situations to add to their lead with guys on 3rd and less than two outs, which has obviously been a season-long issue.
I know Cishek, Rosario, and Strop were already used, but if I'm Maddon before the game and I know I don't have Morrow I am setting one of those guys aside to close.
I agree though, the bats not coming through with RISP was the biggest issue.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 14, 2018, 10:37:12 AM
^^^ From a Chuch Garfien tweet. Covey continues to roll!
The Sox are 15-15 in their last 30. Get the AL Central title ready.
Aaaaaand they haven't won since I posted this. KC we are coming for you!
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 20, 2018, 09:47:52 PM
Aaaaaand they haven't won since I posted this. KC we are coming for you!
I drafted Eloy in the 30th round in my keeper league. I hope he gets some time in September.
Well sorry, being new to the Superbar I actually searched for "Brewers" and when it did not pop up started a new post on the NL central before seeing this "MLB" pop to the top. If the Administrators want to combine that post and I am instead posting it below:
« on: Today at 07:00:06 PM »
QuoteModify
Alright all - I'm usually down the block Hanging in the Al but wandered down the road to The Superbar. I've been using vacation to break down the hitting, pitching and fielding in the MLB and my breakdown of the NL Central is here if anyone has feedback. Obviously this system isn't as developed as www.valueaddbasketball.com, but does have a little methodology to it.
http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2018/06/20/cubs-wish-list-elite-pitcher-to-replace-arrieta/
Chicago (15.0 of 20) - While the three elite teams all appear to be in the AL in the Yankees, Astros and Red Sox, the Cubs are strong in all four areas that they could contend and match up pretty closely if they make the World Series. If the Cubs can get another top starter or two like Tyson Ross (SD) or Chris Archer (TB), they could truly be a contender.
Batters (6.9 of 10) - The Cubs stayed pat with a strong line-up.
Starters (3.6 of 5) - With the loss of Jake Arrieta to the Phillies, the Cubs might need to add Tyson Ross (SD) or Chris Archer (TB) before the trade deadline to truly have the elite rotation to potentially go all the way. - The gamble assuming Tyler Chatwood would pitch well making the move from the altitude of Colorado to Wrigley, and the rotation is solid but not quite elite. If Yu Darvish comes back strong once off DL it will help as well.
Relievers (2.0 of 3) - Adding Steve Cishek from Tampa Bay was a big addition to a pen that already included Brandon Morrow and can certainly shut an opponent down for at least a couple of innings.
Fielding (1.8 of 2) - Contender for the best fielders in baseball with Jason Heyward in RF, and Anthony Rizzo (1b), Ben Zobrist (2b) and Addison Russell (ss) all gold glove nominees.
Milwaukee (13.3 of 20) - On paper, the Brewers made substantial moves to improve the line-up, starting pitchers and relievers - and the great defensive improvement in the outfield helps make them a legit playoff contender.
rest of story ....
http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2018/06/20/cubs-wish-list-elite-pitcher-to-replace-arrieta/
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 20, 2018, 10:10:40 PM
I drafted Eloy in the 30th round in my keeper league. I hope he gets some time in September.
Probably 2 weeks into next season.
Mascot flying weiner warning...
https://www.google.com/amp/6abc.com/amp/sports/phillies-fan-injured-by-phanatics-flying-hot-dog/3627942/
The Cardinal Way went whacky tonight.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=23868477
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1009973874820345856/video/1
Quote from: wadesworld on June 21, 2018, 10:37:49 PM
The Cardinal Way went whacky tonight.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=23868477
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1009973874820345856/video/1
Wow. Pretty rough. Ozuna is usually a pretty solid defender.
And I don't know how to begin to try to figure out what happened to Martinez.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 21, 2018, 10:37:49 PM
The Cardinal Way went whacky tonight.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=23868477
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1009973874820345856/video/1
I wouldn't enjoy another team's suffering nearly as much if it wasn't the Cards.
Are the AL playoff teams already decided? You know both NY and Boston are coming out of the East, only question is who wins the division and who host the WC game. The lead in the Central is only 5 games, but Cleveland is the only team above .500, and the only team with a + run differential, I don't expect them to get caught. The West could be interesting, but Houston has too much talent not to win it despite Seattle only being 3.5 back. I could see Seattle and LA battling it out down the stretch for the second WC, maybe throw in Oakland (I'll admit to not seeing them much), but that's about it. Obviously a ton of baseball left to be played, but I can't remember a time when divisions were all but decided this early, especially considering how close things are at the top of the NL divisions.
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 22, 2018, 10:15:14 AM
Are the AL playoff teams already decided? You know both NY and Boston are coming out of the East, only question is who wins the division and who host the WC game. The lead in the Central is only 5 games, but Cleveland is the only team above .500, and the only team with a + run differential, I don't expect them to get caught. The West could be interesting, but Houston has too much talent not to win it despite Seattle only being 3.5 back. I could see Seattle and LA battling it out down the stretch for the second WC, maybe throw in Oakland (I'll admit to not seeing them much), but that's about it. Obviously a ton of baseball left to be played, but I can't remember a time when divisions were all but decided this early, especially considering how close things are at the top of the NL divisions.
Yeah, seems pretty much done, though I have to say, this was basically the case in the NL last season, with the NL Central the only playoff position not decided by the break.
Quote from: Its DJOver on June 22, 2018, 10:15:14 AM
Are the AL playoff teams already decided? You know both NY and Boston are coming out of the East, only question is who wins the division and who host the WC game. The lead in the Central is only 5 games, but Cleveland is the only team above .500, and the only team with a + run differential, I don't expect them to get caught. The West could be interesting, but Houston has too much talent not to win it despite Seattle only being 3.5 back. I could see Seattle and LA battling it out down the stretch for the second WC, maybe throw in Oakland (I'll admit to not seeing them much), but that's about it. Obviously a ton of baseball left to be played, but I can't remember a time when divisions were all but decided this early, especially considering how close things are at the top of the NL divisions.
Yep. And I'm not going to do the related attendance work but.......
So I'll bet some of you guys follow them. My instincts are the Cards aren't particularly good this year. Thoughts?
What a night for Aguilar. Home run to tie the game and break up the no hitter in the 7th. Then he hits a walk off homer to win the game.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 22, 2018, 10:36:02 PM
What a night for Aguilar. Home run to tie the game and break up the no hitter in the 7th. Then he hits a walk off homer to win the game.
That and the bullpen. 4 innings, 8 Ks, 0 hits, 0 walks.
Hader comes in with the Brewers down 1-0, 1st and 2nd and no outs in the 6th and strikes out the next 3 guys. Insane.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 22, 2018, 11:01:37 PM
That and the bullpen. 4 innings, 8 Ks, 0 hits, 0 walks.
Hader comes in with the Brewers down 1-0, 1st and 2nd and no outs in the 6th and strikes out the next 3 guys. Insane.
On Intentional Talk today the bet was: what number will be higher this weekend? Ks by Hader vs HRs by Judge, Stanton, and Torres combined.
A week or two ago my son and I were discussing who the Crew all stars would be. We both agreed Hader was a lock and that Cain, Yelich and maybe Jeffress were in the mix for the certain second slot. I revise and extend my remarks. Aggie's going. From an offensive perspective, the dude is carrying the team.
Who could have imagined that Aguilar and Mitch Moorland would be two of the top 1B in MLB this year?
Oh, and one more comment. Bob Uecker is the greatest announcer in history. I hope God lets him stay forever.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1010492671327027200
I think it's time for the Chubbies to concede and start retooling for next year. 8-)
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on June 23, 2018, 09:19:17 AM
I think it's time for the Chubbies to concede and start retooling for next year. 8-)
I'm not going down that path. The Cubs are really, really good. Are they in the league with the Astros, Yankees, or Sox? No. But they still might be the best team in the NL.
What would be honestly good for baseball would be two knockdown, dragout playoff series this year: Yanks/Sox, Crew/Cubs. Unfortunately as it stands now, each would be Division Series, not pennant.
Quote from: jsglow on June 23, 2018, 09:41:13 AM
What would be honestly good for baseball would be two knockdown, dragout playoff series this year: Yanks/Sox, Crew/Cubs. Unfortunately as it stands now, each would be Division Series, not pennant.
If I could wave a magic wand, what I think would be the best series for baseball would be and Angels/Nationals World Series. I know this is very unlikely as the Angels are in a bit of a hole, and don't have much pitching (again, if I had the magic wand, I would send Machado and Britton there -- though deGrom would probably be the best fit, but the Angels probably don't have the prospects to get either of those done).
Having Trout matchup with Harper in the WS would be really cool to watch. Really a shame Otani went down, I think he brought the hopes of the Angels with him.
I think the best Championship Series for baseball would be Red Sox/Yankees but could sub Astros in for either and Dodgers/Nationals (if both squads are healthy) but could sub Cubs.
Milwaukee doesn't do a ton for baseball. I don't think many people have strong feelings for them either way or would get really into a CS with them in it.
The best teams to have making it the furthest in the Playoffs are teams (and teams with players) that you either love or hate. Brewers don't have players that are easy to hate besides Braun and aren't a big national presence team.
Quote from: jsglow on June 23, 2018, 09:41:13 AM
What would be honestly good for baseball would be two knockdown, dragout playoff series this year: Yanks/Sox, Crew/Cubs. Unfortunately as it stands now, each would be Division Series, not pennant.
Just stirring the pot, the Brewers are good but the Chubbies are still probably the favorite in the Central. It's hard to imagine a scenario where any NL team could win a WS against whoever emerges from the Yanks, Red Sox or Astro's.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on June 23, 2018, 01:57:37 PM
Just stirring the pot, the Brewers are good but the Chubbies are still probably the favorite in the Central. It's hard to imagine a scenario where any NL team could win a WS against whoever emerges from the Yanks, Red Sox or Astro's.
Not hard for me to imagine at all. A few pitchers on the NL team pitch lights out, a couple hitters on the NL team get red hot, a few hitters on the AL team struggle, the ace of the AL team gets lit up ... and I could imagine the NL team winning, perhaps even easily. Baseball is a funny game, and a best-of-7 series is ... dare I say? ... a you-know-what-shoot.
I mean, I "can't imagine" Kershaw having a career 4.35 postseason ERA ... but he does.
Quote from: MU82 on June 23, 2018, 03:11:14 PM
Not hard for me to imagine at all. A few pitchers on the NL team pitch lights out, a couple hitters on the NL team get red hot, a few hitters on the AL team struggle, the ace of the AL team gets lit up ... and I could imagine the NL team winning, perhaps even easily. Baseball is a funny game, and a best-of-7 series is ... dare I say? ... a you-know-what-shoot.
I mean, I "can't imagine" Kershaw having a career 4.35 postseason ERA ... but he does.
Yep. All it takes is getting hot at the right time.
Glad to see my Cubs playing so well against Cincy this weekend.
http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/06/23/what-the-willson-contreras-says-umpire-got-on-him-for-not-saying-thank-you/
Greg Gibson's ass might be in the jackpot now if true.
Well I think we've had our memorable crap series of 2018.
2015: Phillies
2016: Pirates
2017: Yankees
2018: Reds
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 24, 2018, 03:08:10 PM
Well I think we've had our memorable crap series of 2018.
2015: Phillies
2016: Pirates
2017: Yankees
2018: Reds
Well it's hard to avoid being swept in Cinci.
I mean ... Bench, Rose, Griffey, Foster, Concepcion, Geronimo, Perez, Morgan ... they don't call 'em The Big Red Machine for nuthin'!!!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 24, 2018, 03:08:10 PM
Well I think we've had our memorable crap series of 2018.
2015: Phillies
2016: Pirates
2017: Yankees
2018: Reds
4 straight, outscored 31-13 by the hapless Reds - hard to imagine anything in the last 4 years measuring up to this embarrassment.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 24, 2018, 07:33:30 PM
4 straight, outscored 31-13 by the hapless Reds - hard to imagine anything in the last 4 years measuring up to this embarrassment.
Swept at home by the Phillies in 2015--including getting no-hit--is up there.
better for the cubs sake to falter now than down the stretch of the season a month from now right?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 24, 2018, 07:33:30 PM
4 straight, outscored 31-13 by the hapless Reds - hard to imagine anything in the last 4 years measuring up to this embarrassment.
Those hapless Reds have won 10 of their last 12 and are 21-18 since May 8th. They really have improved since firing Bryan Price.
I'll put that 2015 Phillies series over this one any day in terms of bad.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 24, 2018, 09:51:47 PM
Those hapless Reds have won 10 of their last 12 and are 21-18 since May 8th. They really have improved since firing Bryan Price.
I'll put that 2015 Phillies series over this one any day in terms of bad.
IOW, 17-18 before sweeping the Cubs. Meh. I may be wrong, but when we look at their record at season's end I think hapless will apply.
The 2015 Phils may have been worse, though - I'll grant you that.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 24, 2018, 07:55:55 PM
better for the cubs sake to falter now than down the stretch of the season a month from now right?
So the Cubs needed to be swept now to avoid it a month from now? Please explain.
Quote from: MU82 on June 24, 2018, 10:17:59 PM
So the Cubs needed to be swept now to avoid it a month from now? Please explain.
see the long wades vs. cubs fans debate about how the Brewers "faltered down the stretch" last year (if you ignore the fact that the brewers highest winning percentage of the season came in september and second highest winning percentage came in August, the last 2 months of the season, the cubs fans certainly would have won that debate).
according to some cubs fans the brewers faltering out of the gates after the as break was the brewers "faltering down the stretch."
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 24, 2018, 10:26:23 PM
see the long wades vs. cubs fans debate about how the Brewers "faltered down the stretch" last year (if you ignore the fact that the brewers highest winning percentage of the season came in september and second highest winning percentage came in August, the last 2 months of the season, the cubs fans certainly would have won that debate).
according to some cubs fans the brewers faltering out of the gates after the as break was the brewers "faltering down the stretch."
That explains ... well ... nothing. But that's cool. Fans don't have to be rational. I'm not always rational about the Golden Warriors.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 24, 2018, 10:26:23 PM
see the long wades vs. cubs fans debate about how the Brewers "faltered down the stretch" last year (if you ignore the fact that the brewers highest winning percentage of the season came in september and second highest winning percentage came in August, the last 2 months of the season, the cubs fans certainly would have won that debate).
according to some cubs fans the brewers faltering out of the gates after the as break was the brewers "faltering down the stretch."
Quote from: MU82 on June 24, 2018, 10:37:49 PM
That explains ... well ... nothing. But that's cool. Fans don't have to be rational. I'm not always rational about the Golden Warriors.
Oh good. I'm gone for a few days and come back to this.
It's basically an argument of semantics as to when the Brewers actually faltered and if dropping 5 of 7 in late September is considered to be part of "the stretch." It's a fascinating read, MU82. I'd definitely recommend avoiding it ;)
I think Maddon's gimmicks are long past their expiration date. He was great for a young, unproven Cubs team but the mad-scientist approach doesn't exactly lend itself to a lineup that should be pretty much set in stone.
If we're being honest, I think this offseason Theo offers Maddon a nice cushy front office job, like head of player development or something like that and hires a new manager. At least, that's what I hope.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 25, 2018, 12:35:06 PM
I think Maddon's gimmicks are long past their expiration date. He was great for a young, unproven Cubs team but the mad-scientist approach doesn't exactly lend itself to a lineup that should be pretty much set in stone.
If we're being honest, I think this offseason Theo offers Maddon a nice cushy front office job, like head of player development or something like that and hires a new manager. At least, that's what I hope.
Maddon's schtick can seem draining at times. He likes to keep guys loose and "uncomfortable," which can have great results, but that strategy doesn't necessarily jive with every roster he's given. I've said this before but I feel like Maddon has a bit of an NBA-like strategy with this team. He coasts along, trying unorthodox moves and experimenting with line-ups, off days, defensive shifts, bullpen roles, etc all while planning on getting it all together in the second half to make a run in October. It worked last season so I'm obviously not calling for the guy's head. I mean, he led Tampa Bay to a pennant, won the WS with the Cubs and has gone to 3 straight NLCS's so he's clearly been effective.
Joe's contract expires after next season so I don't expect any changes after 2018. David Ross managing the Cubs in 2020? That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
MLB has its lowest attendance at this point in a season in 15 years.
http://fortune.com/2018/06/15/mlb-attendance-rate-declining/
I don't believe this is possible. I mean, not only do MLB players stand for the national anthem, but teams even play God Bless America every Sunday.
All this patriotism ... and still attendance is way down? Please!
Quote from: MU82 on June 25, 2018, 02:53:00 PM
MLB has its lowest attendance at this point in a season in 15 years.
http://fortune.com/2018/06/15/mlb-attendance-rate-declining/
I don't believe this is possible. I mean, not only do MLB players stand for the national anthem, but teams even play God Bless America every Sunday.
All this patriotism ... and still attendance is way down? Please!
Wtf. Why do you guys keep trying to bring this terrible conversation back to life in this thread.
Quote from: buckchuckler on June 25, 2018, 10:26:58 PM
Wtf. Why do you guys keep trying to bring this terrible conversation back to life in this thread.
"you guys"?
You mean us guys who search for truth rather than silliness? (OK, I like silliness, too, which is why I hang out at Scoop, but still ... )
I mean if a few players not standing for the anthem "killed" the NFL, then ipso fatso, all those players who are standing for the anthem are hurting MLB.
I mean, that's maths!
But sure ...
Cubs lose again. There ... is that better?
Quote from: MU82 on June 26, 2018, 12:03:51 AM
Cubs lose again. There ... is that better?
Yes. Yes it is.
Quote from: MU82 on June 26, 2018, 12:03:51 AM
"you guys"?
You mean us guys who search for truth rather than silliness? (OK, I like silliness, too, which is why I hang out at Scoop, but still ... )
I mean if a few players not standing for the anthem "killed" the NFL, then ipso fatso, all those players who are standing for the anthem are hurting MLB.
I mean, that's maths!
But sure ...
Cubs lose again. There ... is that better?
::)
Wasn't this brought up like 10 posts above yours? Hasn't this conversation happened in line 50 other threads? Does that conversation lead to anything fun/productive/enlightening?
Sorry, didn't mean to impede a search for truth.
Quote from: MU82 on June 25, 2018, 02:53:00 PM
MLB has its lowest attendance at this point in a season in 15 years.
http://fortune.com/2018/06/15/mlb-attendance-rate-declining/
I don't believe this is possible. I mean, not only do MLB players stand for the national anthem, but teams even play God Bless America every Sunday.
All this patriotism ... and still attendance is way down? Please!
An abundance of reasons. Bad teams, lousy weather in April in the upper Midwest. I attended a game during the first week of April. 38 degrees. Spitting rain and ice pellets. 1500 fans there, tops.
I know the argument you are trying to make. It translates better when you use NASCAR.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on June 25, 2018, 12:35:06 PM
I think Maddon's gimmicks are long past their expiration date. He was great for a young, unproven Cubs team but the mad-scientist approach doesn't exactly lend itself to a lineup that should be pretty much set in stone.
If we're being honest, I think this offseason Theo offers Maddon a nice cushy front office job, like head of player development or something like that and hires a new manager. At least, that's what I hope.
Sorry but I think this is absurd. The set line-up theory is garbage and Hoyer as said as much. Maddon's teams have also been dominant in the 2nd half of each season since he has been here. Granted, that doesn't mean that will happen this year but the guy knows how to manage a roster and keep guys fresh.
Like any manager Maddon has his faults but some of the criticism this season is laughable.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 26, 2018, 11:54:00 AM
Sorry but I think this is absurd. The set line-up theory is garbage and Hoyer as said as much. Maddon's teams have also been dominant in 2nd half of each season since he has been here. Granted, that doesn't mean that will happen this year but the guy knows how to manage a roster and keep guys fresh.
Like any manager Maddon has his fault but some of the criticism this season is laughable.
+10000
Maddon needs to underachieve before he has passed any "expiration date." The '15 Cubs were a year ahead of schedule, the '16 team accomplished more than any previous team, and the '17 squad had no right to beat the Nationals and make it to a third straight NLCS.
It's easy to pick on a manager when a team is slumping. Baseball is a 6-month season, and needs a particular perspective.
People are really calling for Maddons head because he's in second place in June after 3 straight nlcs's and a world series? K.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 26, 2018, 12:45:58 PM
People are really calling for Maddons head because he's in second place in June after 3 straight nlcs's and a world series? K.
Yep. It's a sh*tshow on Twitter and certain message boards but I guess those mediums do lend themselves to that kind of over-the-top insanity.
This is what Jed Hoyer had to say about lineup construction in The Athletic and he referred to the angst over it as his biggest pet peeve:
"I've said this a few times in the media. One of the first things I learned from Bill James when I was working with him in Boston, he would always say, you know, don't obsess about the lineup. It's the biggest waste of your time. All you want to do is hit your best hitters the most often. If you do that, don't worry about it. Any other changes, we're talking about fractions of runs over the course of a season. So for an individual game, it's just not going to have enough of an impact. Fractions of runs and people obsess. It's a sports radio lightning rod, both a consistent lineup and the batting order. I just think people spend too much time thinking about something that doesn't have a significant impact on winning and losing."
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 26, 2018, 12:54:00 PM
Yep. It's a sh*tshow on Twitter and certain message boards but I guess those mediums do lend themselves to that kind of over-the-top insanity.
Exhibit A: Scoop during college basketball season
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2018, 09:39:02 AM
An abundance of reasons. Bad teams, lousy weather in April in the upper Midwest. I attended a game during the first week of April. 38 degrees. Spitting rain and ice pellets. 1500 fans there, tops.
I know the argument you are trying to make. It translates better when you use NASCAR.
Awww ... way to ruin my fun!
(And yes, I agree with your last line.)
It's the Royals....but that Peralta kid can pitch.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 26, 2018, 11:20:52 PM
It's the Royals....but that Peralta kid can pitch.
They're studying the record books. He breaking some from the entire 'live ball' era in baseball history. And last night his curve was working. Hitters didn't have a chance.
One more thing. I simply love his dad.
I'm hoping the Cubs can pick up some games leading up to the break. Yesterday, the Brewers started a stretch of 21 games in 20 days until the All Star break. The Cubs are wrapping up a stretch of 17 games in 17 days and have three off days between now and the break. Neither team plays a particularly difficult schedule going into the break but after that Reds series, oppenent strength doesn't mean much.
Unfortunately, this means the Brewers will have 3 or four extra days off down the stretch. Hopefully the September callups can help with that.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 26, 2018, 11:20:52 PM
It's the Royals....but that Peralta kid can pitch.
It was a rare bright spot in what's been a painful month for the Royals, who are 4-19 since June 1 and have lost 12 of their last 14 games -- six by four or more runs.
"We're all frustrated," Yost said. "I've never seen anything like it. I've never been a part of a month like this. An offensive drought like we've had all month long is pretty puzzling. There's no answer for it."
Yosted
Quote from: TallTitan34 on June 27, 2018, 10:12:53 AM
I'm hoping the Cubs can pick up some games leading up to the break. Yesterday, the Brewers started a stretch of 21 games in 20 days until the All Star break. The Cubs are wrapping up a stretch of 17 games in 17 days and have three off days between now and the break. Neither team plays a particularly difficult schedule going into the break but after that Reds series, oppenent strength doesn't mean much.
Unfortunately, this means the Brewers will have 3 or four extra days off down the stretch. Hopefully the September callups can help with that.
The Brewers are dealing with this by cleverly having a continuous rotation of players getting injured, ensuring they get plenty of off days throughout the season. Pure genius.
Quote from: TSmith34 on June 27, 2018, 11:29:32 AM
The Brewers are dealing with this by cleverly having a continuous rotation of players getting injured, ensuring they get plenty of off days throughout the season. Pure genius.
Injuries have definitely helped this team.
Thames goes down - we get Aguilar in the lineup every day.
Miley goes down - we get Suter.
Davies goes down - we get Peralta.
Quote from: TSmith34 on June 27, 2018, 11:24:22 AM
Yosted
Still trying to figure out what he promised to Mr. Applegate to be a WS-winning manager.
Well, Chris Bosio is available (again)
The Detroit Tigers announced on Wednesday that the team has fired pitching coach Chris Bosio.
The team released the following statement:
"Effective immediately, the Detroit Tigers have terminated the contract of pitching coach Chris Bosio for his insensitive comments that violated Club policy and his Uniform Employee Contract. The organization holds all of our personnel to the highest standards of personal conduct both on and off the field. We have zero tolerance for this type of behavior. The Club will have no further comment on this matter."
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2018/06/27/detroit-tigers-fire-pitching-coach-chris-bosio/739555002/
Quote from: tower912 on June 26, 2018, 09:39:02 AM
An abundance of reasons. Bad teams, lousy weather in April in the upper Midwest. I attended a game during the first week of April. 38 degrees. Spitting rain and ice pellets. 1500 fans there, tops.
I know the argument you are trying to make. It translates better when you use NASCAR.
Lousy weather in May also.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 27, 2018, 03:27:35 PM
Well, Chris Bosio is available (again)
The Detroit Tigers announced on Wednesday that the team has fired pitching coach Chris Bosio.
The team released the following statement:
"Effective immediately, the Detroit Tigers have terminated the contract of pitching coach Chris Bosio for his insensitive comments that violated Club policy and his Uniform Employee Contract. The organization holds all of our personnel to the highest standards of personal conduct both on and off the field. We have zero tolerance for this type of behavior. The Club will have no further comment on this matter."
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2018/06/27/detroit-tigers-fire-pitching-coach-chris-bosio/739555002/
I don't know what was said to or about whom. And I really don't care. They took a stand. A shame, because I thought he was doing a decent job with a bad pitching staff.
However, I can't help but think about this scene and smile....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAXHXJ2WgrQ
Apparently the Reds owner is plotting to move to Las Vegas and as such put a bunch of no names on the field to drive down attendance. The team just found out and realized even if they do well they will be replaced next year.
So the only thing left to do is win the whole ****ing thing. The brewers should have their hands full on a team that's 9-1 in the last 10 games.
Watching the College World Series, I'll happily take a crummy Sox season to get Adley Rutschman in the top 3 in next year's draft. That is a face of the franchise dude.
The Brewers will not be swept by the Redlegs.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on June 28, 2018, 06:40:57 PM
Apparently the Reds owner is plotting to move to Las Vegas and as such put a bunch of no names on the field to drive down attendance. The team just found out and realized even if they do well they will be replaced next year.
So the only thing left to do is win the whole ****ing thing. The brewers should have their hands full on a team that's 9-1 in the last 10 games.
To be fair, 4 of those losses where to the Chubbys.
Another awesome base running play by the Brewers.
Unrelated, but maybe the Brewers will get healthy at some point this year. That would be cool.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 29, 2018, 08:29:19 PM
Another awesome base running play by the Brewers.
Unrelated, but maybe the Brewers will get healthy at some point this year. That would be cool.
That was mostly bad D but it worked out.
Guess Broxton wants to stay. Helluva night.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 29, 2018, 08:29:19 PM
Another awesome base running play by the Brewers.
Unrelated, but maybe the Brewers will get healthy at some point this year. That would be cool.
The NL Central has been hit hard with injuries. Luckily for the Cubs Morrow just returned and Bryant, Edwards, and Darvish should hopefully be back sooner rather than later.
Quote from: jsglow on June 29, 2018, 09:16:34 PM
That was mostly bad D but it worked out.
Guess Broxton wants to stay. Helluva night.
Broxton is showing why he might have some trade value left. If we can swing a deal that includes Broxton instead of a lower prospect with more potential (say...Corey Ray), I will be very happy, especially since the OF spots on the big league club are blocked for the time being (Braun, Cain, and Yelich are all under contract for multiple years).
I tried telling you guys the Reds are far from hapless.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 03:43:25 PM
I tried telling you guys the Reds are far from hapless.
Because they split a series with a team who had two available outfielders, one of them having been called up from the minors for this series?
Why can't you just admit the Reds are not complete garbage?
I'm not crapping on the Brewers. I'm complimenting the Reds.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 03:50:43 PM
Why can't you just admit the Reds are not complete garbage?
They're in pace to finish the season 24 games out of first place, 8 games out of 2nd last place, and 23 games under .500.
They are garbage.
Whatever. I thought that garbage team looked pretty good winning 6 of 8 against the top two teams in ththe division including some ass kickings.
Check that. Against the top two teams in the National League.
A poor team that has been playing well the last two-plus weeks. Happens every year. Time will tell if it lasts.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 04:03:41 PM
Check that. Against the top two teams in the National League.
Yeah I guess the difference between you and I is I understand that an 8 (or 10) game sample size in a 162 game season doesn't prove (or disprove) a team is good, bad, garbage, or anything else.
Even the worst team in the baseball are going to win 60 games in a season.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 04:29:46 PM
Yeah I guess the difference between you and I is I understand that an 8 (or 10) game sample size in a 162 game season doesn't prove (or disprove) a team is good, bad, garbage, or anything else.
Even the worst team in the baseball are going to win 60 games in a season.
How about the sample size of 14 of 19?
Or the sample size of 33-30 since their 3-18 start under Bryan Price. That's 63 games to go by.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 05:54:01 PM
How about the sample size of 14 of 19?
Or the sample size of 33-30 since their 3-18 start under Bryan Price. That's 63 games to go by.
Yep, Reds have been playing well for a while. It's certainly no small sample size. They're certainly not a good team but they've got a pretty nice offense, a good closer, and their rotation hasn't been nearly as bad.
Saying they're garbage equates to not paying attention.
Not sure why you bother, it doesn't fit his narrative.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 01, 2018, 05:59:23 PM
Not sure why you bother, it doesn't fit his narrative.
What narrative?
The Reds are 36-48. The 6th worst team in baseball, 3rd worst in the NL.
But they're not garbage and I'm the one with the narrative. ::)
Cute that the 3 amigos come flying out at once.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 01, 2018, 05:59:23 PM
Not sure why you bother, it doesn't fit his narrative.
Cycling on the PEDs, hey?
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 06:02:21 PM
What narrative?
The Reds are 36-48. The 6th worst team in baseball, 3rd worst in the NL.
But they're not garbage and I'm the one with the narrative. ::)
Cute that the 3 amigos come flying out at once.
You're aware a team can improve in season, right? For the last 63 games (39% of the season), they've been an above average team.
Maybe the "3 amigos" are just amused by how obtuse you are.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 01, 2018, 06:19:57 PM
You're aware a team can improve in season, right? For the last 63 games (39% of the season), they've been an above average team.
Maybe the "3 amigos" are just amused by how obtuse you are.
You're aware the other 61% of the season count, right?
Glad they had a nice 39% of the season.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 06:23:34 PM
You're aware the other 61% of the season count, right?
Glad they had a nice 39% of the season.
Do you really not see why this is a dumb post?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 01, 2018, 06:31:59 PM
Do you really not see why this is a dumb post?
Nope. I do. But I also see Cubs fans pretending the 6th worst team in all of baseball is not trash so...
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 06:33:05 PM
Nope. I do. But I also see Cubs fans pretending the 6th worst team in all of baseball is not trash so...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/11OJV2zUZRVL3y/giphy.gif)
The Orioles won 5 of 6 games this season. Obviously they aren't garbage.
The Royals won 7 of 10 this year. Can't be garbage.
The White Sox won 8 of 11 this year. No chance they're garbage.
The Marlins won 8 of 11 this year. Not garbage.
The Mets started 11-1/12-2/17-9 this season. They're great!
Guess we have no baseball teams that are garbage this season.
But I'll tell you what. I'm absolutely shocked that a professional sports team that plays a 162 game season had a streak of good play. Because that doesn't happen to every team in baseball every season at some point in the year...
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 06:50:18 PM
The Orioles won 5 of 6 games this season. Obviously they aren't garbage.
The Royals won 7 of 10 this year. Can't be garbage.
The White Sox won 8 of 11 this year. No chance they're garbage.
The Marlins won 8 of 11 this year. Not garbage.
The Mets started 11-1/12-2/17-9 this season. They're great!
Guess we have no baseball teams that are garbage this season.
But I'll tell you what. I'm absolutely shocked that a professional sports team that plays a 162 game season had a streak of good play. Because that doesn't happen to every team in baseball every season at some point in the year...
The records of those 5 teams are over a combined 64 games. The Reds are 33-30 alone in their last 63.
Are you this dumb? If so, Marquette really failed you. Just stop - I'm embarrassed for you.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 06:50:18 PM
But I'll tell you what. I'm absolutely shocked that a professional sports team that plays a 162 game season had a streak of good play. Because that doesn't happen to every team in baseball every season at some point in the year...
Show me where every team in baseball has played above .500 baseball over a course of 63 games.
I'll save you time. You can't.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 01, 2018, 06:58:37 PM
The records of those 5 teams are over a combined 64 games. The Reds are 33-30 alone in their last 63.
Are you this dumb? If so, Marquette really failed you. Just stop - I'm embarrassed for you.
Cool. Sadly for the Reds they're right there with those 5 teams in the standings.
These burns sting.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 07:02:33 PM
Show me where every team in baseball has played above .500 baseball over a course of 63 games.
I'll save you time. You can't.
Show me a good baseball team that is 12 games under .500 half way through the season.
I'll save you the time. You can't.
They're garbage.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 07:04:07 PM
Show me a good baseball team that is 12 games under .500 half way through the season.
I'll save you the time. You can't.
They're garbage.
I never said the Reds were a title contender. I said they are playing decent baseball at a .500 clip.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 07:07:48 PM
I never said the Reds were a title contender. I said they are playing decent baseball at a .500 clip.
Yes. They are playing decent baseball. At the moment.
They're also a garbage baseball team.
I'm done. You are just doing a bit now.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 07:02:49 PM
Cool. Sadly for the Reds they're right there with those 5 teams in the standings.
These burns sting.
You let your hatred of Chicago and the Cubs lead you to saying a bunch of inanely stupid sh*t but you do you.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 07:09:33 PM
I'm done. You are just doing a bit now.
The sad part is he's not. It's a perfect representation, actually.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 01, 2018, 07:10:27 PM
You let your hatred of Chicago and the Cubs lead you to saying a bunch of inanely stupid sh*t but you do you.
Who in the world is talking about Chicago or the Cubs? Lol!
I do love Chicago people though. Somehow they think a discussion about the Cincinnati Reds has to do with...Chicago?
Yeah, everything is always about you.
:o
FIBs at their finest.
I don't think you'd be having this argument if a Brewer fan said, "hey the Reds are decent."
But moving on, what do you guys want your team to get at the trade deadline?
I'd like the Cubs to get a starter and some bullpen help. I have little interest in renting Machado no matter how streaky the offense is. (Addy actually had a higher WAR than Machado right now but that's because of defense.)
There's talk the Mets are now considering moving Thor and deGrom. If you could get one of those guys for two of Addy, Schwarber, Happ, and Almora along with some minor league prospects (or what the Cubs have anyway) I'd definitely consider it. I'm not sure if even that would be enough.
Personally I'd prefer to keep Schwarber and Almora and be more willing to give up Addy and Happ.
What do you guys want your team do get? Who are you willing to give up?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 07:57:11 PM
I don't think you'd be having this argument if a Brewer fan said, "hey the Reds are decent."
But moving on, what do you guys want your team to get at the trade deadline?
I'd like the Cubs to get a starter and some bullpen help. I have little interest in renting Machado no matter how streaky the offense is. (Addy actually had a higher WAR than Machado right now but that's because of defense.)
There's talk the Mets are now considering moving Thor and deGrom. If you could get one of those guys for two of Addy, Schwarber, Happ, and Almora along with some minor league prospects (or what the Cubs have anyway) I'd definitely consider it. I'm not sure if even that would be enough.
Personally I'd prefer to keep Schwarber and Almora and be more willing to give up Addy and Happ.
What do you guys want your team do get? Who are you willing to give up?
The Cubs should stand pat and maybe acquire a reliever. No reason to trade any of the guys you mentioned.
This thread is, uhhhh.....weird.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 07:15:02 PM
Who in the world is talking about Chicago or the Cubs? Lol!
I do love Chicago people though. Somehow they think a discussion about the Cincinnati Reds has to do with...Chicago?
Yeah, everything is always about you.
:o
FIBs at their finest.
And point made.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 01, 2018, 08:47:16 PM
And point made.
The only point that was made was that you somehow thought the Chicago Cubs were being discussed. Incompetence at its finest.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 07:57:11 PM
I don't think you'd be having this argument if a Brewer fan said, "hey the Reds are decent."
Yeah...no. I don't care what team someone roots for or where someone is from. You can live under the same roof as me and if you say "I think this baseball team that is on pace to lose 93 games over half way into the season is decent" I'm going to say you're 100% wrong.
So no, despite FIBs trying to make everything about themselves, it has nothing to do with Chicago or the Cubs.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 07:57:11 PM
There's talk the Mets are now considering moving Thor and deGrom. If you could get one of those guys for two of Addy, Schwarber, Happ, and Almora along with some minor league prospects (or what the Cubs have anyway) I'd definitely consider it. I'm not sure if even that would be enough.
Not sure any of those guys could headline a trade for either Mets ace.
They would demand a return similar to what the Sox got for Sale. Which started at 2 top 20 prospects. Guys that have burned most of their cheap years of control wouldn't make sense. If the Mets trade those guys they are going full rebuild and would likely want young top end talent.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 01, 2018, 09:17:03 PM
Not sure any of those guys could headline a trade for either Mets ace.
They would demand a return similar to what the Sox got for Sale. Which started at 2 top 20 prospects. Guys that have burned most of their cheap years of control wouldn't make sense. If the Mets trade those guys they are going full rebuild and would likely want young top end talent.
Those guys he mentioned have about 4 years of control each, give or take, and have proven to be productive major leaguers already.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 01, 2018, 08:55:38 PM
The only point that was made was that you somehow thought the Chicago Cubs were being discussed. Incompetence at its finest.
Yeah...no. I don't care what team someone roots for or where someone is from. You can live under the same roof as me and if you say "I think this baseball team that is on pace to lose 93 games over half way into the season is decent" I'm going to say you're 100% wrong.
So no, despite FIBs trying to make everything about themselves, it has nothing to do with Chicago or the Cubs.
"Cute that the 3 amigos come flying out at once."
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 01, 2018, 09:35:21 PM
Those guys he mentioned have about 4 years of control each, give or take, and have proven to be productive major leaguers already.
And if the Mets trade deGrom and Syndergaard, would their window to compete be back open where 4 years of control makes sense? I wouldn't think so. Maybe, but it seems doubtful. I also doubt the very cost conscious Mets would want guys on the brink of arbitration.
They wouldn't be trying to reload on the fly if they trade those guys, only a complete teardown would make sense in that case.
Oh yeah, and deGrom is under control until 2021 and Syndergaard until 2022. So swapping out elite assets for competent ones with the same amount of control doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 01, 2018, 08:43:49 PM
The Cubs should stand pat and maybe acquire a reliever. No reason to trade any of the guys you mentioned.
I'd be ok standing pat but with those guys available I'd really have to consider making a trade. I agree it's a lot to give up (and I'm not even sure it's enough to land one of those guys) but I'd hate to waste a year of Rizzo, Bryant, etc. in their prime window.
Lester has been awesome but his peripheral stats are worrisome. His BABIP is pretty low (although part of that is the great defense behind him) and his xFIP is around 4.50. Kyle Hendricks hasn't been himself. Quintana has struggled. Chatwood can't find the zone. Montgomery has had a couple rough outings after a dominate stretch.
Maybe the returns of Yu and Drew Smyly are the answer. There's still time for Q and Hendricks to get right as well. I'd just like to have a solid three to take into the playoffs. Hopefully if they stand pat, Lester, Hendricks, and Yu can be those guys.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 01, 2018, 10:39:08 PM
And if the Mets trade deGrom and Syndergaard, would their window to compete be back open where 4 years of control makes sense? I wouldn't think so. Maybe, but it seems doubtful. I also doubt the very cost conscious Mets would want guys on the brink of arbitration.
They wouldn't be trying to reload on the fly if they trade those guys, only a complete teardown would make sense in that case.
Oh yeah, and deGrom is under control until 2021 and Syndergaard until 2022. So swapping out elite assets for competent ones with the same amount of control doesn't make sense.
These are good points. They likely would want to go with the younger prospects instead of major league ready talent.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 10:46:08 PM
These are good points. They likely would want to go with the younger prospects instead of major league ready talent.
For the first time in a long time, the Cubs have what is probably a below average farm system ( I don't believe they have a single top 100 level guy). It could be more difficult for them to swing a big move than some of the other contenders. Teams like the Braves, Brewers, Dodgers, Yankees still have top tier farm systems. If the Cubs are going to make a big move, it may have to be moving a guy like Happ.
There could be a ton of great talent moving around this trade season. The NL is really tight in each division. A GM may end up being the difference maker.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 01, 2018, 10:39:08 PM
And if the Mets trade deGrom and Syndergaard, would their window to compete be back open where 4 years of control makes sense? I wouldn't think so. Maybe, but it seems doubtful. I also doubt the very cost conscious Mets would want guys on the brink of arbitration.
They wouldn't be trying to reload on the fly if they trade those guys, only a complete teardown would make sense in that case.
Oh yeah, and deGrom is under control until 2021 and Syndergaard until 2022. So swapping out elite assets for competent ones with the same amount of control doesn't make sense.
Fair points except I've read they don't want to do a complete tear down.
Russell and Schwarber are under contract until through 2021. Almora through 2022 and Happ through 2023. They play a lot but none play every day right now.
Sorry but Noah's not elite if he can't stay on the field.
fWar through half the season.
Almora - 2.1
Russell - 2.1
Schwarber - 2.3
Happ - 1.2
DeGrom - 3.9 (previous high 5.2)
Thor - 1.9
DeGrom is a stud. Thor is a complete crapshoot. One great year in 2016. 7 starts last year. Only 11 this year.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 10:44:42 PM
I'd be ok standing pat but with those guys available I'd really have to consider making a trade. I agree it's a lot to give up (and I'm not even sure it's enough to land one of those guys) but I'd hate to waste a year of Rizzo, Bryant, etc. in their prime window.
Lester has been awesome but his peripheral stats are worrisome. His BABIP is pretty low (although part of that is the great defense behind him) and his xFIP is around 4.50. Kyle Hendricks hasn't been himself. Quintana has struggled. Chatwood can't find the zone. Montgomery has had a couple rough outings after a dominate stretch.
Maybe the returns of Yu and Drew Smyly are the answer. There's still time for Q and Hendricks to get right as well. I'd just like to have a solid three to take into the playoffs. Hopefully if they stand pat, Lester, Hendricks, and Yu can be those guys.
I don't disagree. I trust Lester to outperform his peripherals. I trust Hendricks to eventually be Hendricks. Same with Q. Yu is obviously a huge question.
We don't have enough to trade for DeGrom. I'm not sure what else out there could make sense. This is where the inability to develop starting pitching so far is an issue.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 02, 2018, 12:03:32 AM
Fair points except I've read they don't want to do a complete tear down.
Russell and Schwarber are under contract until through 2021. Almora through 2022 and Happ through 2023. They play a lot but none play every day right now.
Sorry but Noah's not elite if he can't stay on the field.
fWar through half the season.
Almora - 2.1
Russell - 2.1
Schwarber - 2.3
Happ - 1.2
DeGrom - 3.9 (previous high 5.2)
Thor - 1.9
DeGrom is a stud. Thor is a complete crapshoot. One great year in 2016. 7 starts last year. Only 11 this year.
Isn't trading their aces and best players and best assets a complete teardown almost by definition?
And well, I have to disagree on Syndergaard. I don't think you'd find a single non cub fan that would make any case for those 4 guys being even in the same class of player. Yeah, he's been hurt, but it isn't like you have to look hard to find warts on the 4 aforementioned cubs.
His ceiling, when healthy, is as good as any pitcher in baseball. You can't just find guys like that. As far as pure stuff, there may not be anyone in baseball that matches Syndergaard. He could singlehandedly win a wild card game. That offers more than a couple of almost everyday players.
For the Brewers, I would have trouble rooting for them to go get an ace with the inconsistency of that lineup rn. Maybe see if you can get Asdrubal Cabrera on the cheap or check in on the Marlins asking price for Realmuto (though catchers' bats seem to have more variability than other positions, so its doubtful there's a deal to be made there). Look into Devon Travis. And relievers. Always more relievers.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 02, 2018, 10:09:22 AM
For the Brewers, I would have trouble rooting for them to go get an ace with the inconsistency of that lineup rn. Maybe see if you can get Asdrubal Cabrera on the cheap or check in on the Marlins asking price for Realmuto (though catchers' bats seem to have more variability than other positions, so its doubtful there's a deal to be made there). Look into Devon Travis. And relievers. Always more relievers.
Jeter seems to have no problem giving discounts on assets.
https://twitter.com/Feinsand/status/1013801673708462082
According to a source, the Blue Jays have been extensively scouting the Brewers' system. J.A. Happ could be on Milwaukee's radar, as the Brewers need a starter and the lefty is one of the top arms expected to be traded this month.
Woah, Cardinal President John Mozeliak going hard on Dexter Fowler:
"It's been a frustrating year for everybody involved. Here's a guy who wants to go out and play well. I think he would tell you it's hard to do that when you're not playing on a consistent basis. But I've also had a lot of people come up to me and question his effort and his energy level. You know, those are things that I can't defend. What I can defend is trying to create opportunities for him, but not if it's at the expense of someone who's out there hustling and playing hard. And really I think everyone just needs to take a hard look in the mirror, and decide what they want that next chapter to look like. And in Dexter's case, maybe taking a brief time out, trying to reassess himself, and then give him a chance for a strong second half is probably what's best for everybody. I'm hopeful to touch base with him in the near future and decide what makes the most sense, but clearly he's not playing at the level we had hoped."
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 02, 2018, 12:57:16 AM
Isn't trading their aces and best players and best assets a complete teardown almost by definition?
And well, I have to disagree on Syndergaard. I don't think you'd find a single non cub fan that would make any case for those 4 guys being even in the same class of player. Yeah, he's been hurt, but it isn't like you have to look hard to find warts on the 4 aforementioned cubs.
His ceiling, when healthy, is as good as any pitcher in baseball. You can't just find guys like that. As far as pure stuff, there may not be anyone in baseball that matches Syndergaard. He could singlehandedly win a wild card game. That offers more than a couple of almost everyday players.
Yes, Syndergaard's ceiling is sky high but if he can't be depended to be on the mound every 5th day that's a big deal. He has not been dependable the last seasons and a half having made only 18 starts. The Mets are a perfect example of the volatility of SP.
The only reason the 4 Cubs in the discussion aren't everyday players is due to the team's depth.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 02, 2018, 01:52:50 PM
Woah, Cardinal President John Mozeliak going hard on Dexter Fowler:
"It's been a frustrating year for everybody involved. Here's a guy who wants to go out and play well. I think he would tell you it's hard to do that when you're not playing on a consistent basis. But I've also had a lot of people come up to me and question his effort and his energy level. You know, those are things that I can't defend. What I can defend is trying to create opportunities for him, but not if it's at the expense of someone who's out there hustling and playing hard. And really I think everyone just needs to take a hard look in the mirror, and decide what they want that next chapter to look like. And in Dexter's case, maybe taking a brief time out, trying to reassess himself, and then give him a chance for a strong second half is probably what's best for everybody. I'm hopeful to touch base with him in the near future and decide what makes the most sense, but clearly he's not playing at the level we had hoped."
Pretty questionable decision on Mozeliak's part. Critiquing performance is one thing but when you're calling out effort you're questioning the player's character.
I feel like they have to DFA him at this point. I'm not sure how you can say that about a player and keep him. When is the last time a baseball exec publicly called their player lazy?
Hope he goes anywhere other than the Brewers ;)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 02, 2018, 02:40:51 PM
Pretty questionable decision on Mozeliak's part. Critiquing performance is one thing but when you're calling out effort you're questioning the player's character.
Not to mention, he made those comments right after Fowler was placed on the paternity list. Odd time to kick a guy.
That said, Fowler has been a good player for quite a while yet Houston traded him to the Cubs for a couple nothings and even after being a catalyst for a 97-win team in 2015, he struggled to find a long-term deal in free agency and came back on a 1-year deal. Perhaps there were concerns around his work ethic and the fear that complacency would set in with a long-term deal.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 02, 2018, 03:40:01 PM
Not to mention, he made those comments right after Fowler was placed on the paternity list. Odd time to kick a guy.
That said, Fowler has been a good player for quite a while yet Houston traded him to the Cubs for a couple nothings and even after being a catalyst for a 97-win team in 2015, he struggled to find a long-term deal in free agency and came back on a 1-year deal. Perhaps there were concerns around his work ethic and the fear that complacency would set in with a long-term deal.
I always thought the Astros traded his expiring contract for prospect Dan Straily. Luis Valbuena went along as well but he was just a guy.
Also Dexter is about to turn 33: the age where most players start to drop off. Granted, it usually doesn't happen this quickly.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 02, 2018, 03:40:01 PM
Not to mention, he made those comments right after Fowler was placed on the paternity list. Odd time to kick a guy.
That said, Fowler has been a good player for quite a while yet Houston traded him to the Cubs for a couple nothings and even after being a catalyst for a 97-win team in 2015, he struggled to find a long-term deal in free agency and came back on a 1-year deal. Perhaps there were concerns around his work ethic and the fear that complacency would set in with a long-term deal.
I think his difficulty in finding a long-term deal was just a function of the market. He also had a qualifying offer attached which further hindered his market. I don't recall there ever being questions regarding his work ethic.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 02, 2018, 03:18:12 PM
I feel like they have to DFA him at this point. I'm not sure how you can say that about a player and keep him. When is the last time a baseball exec publicly called their player lazy?
Hope he goes anywhere other than the Brewers ;)
I don't see a DFA - I have a hard time believing the Cardinals will eat the $56 million or so left on his deal. And calling him lazy certainly doesn't enhance his value.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 02, 2018, 05:14:41 PM
I think his difficulty in finding a long-term deal was just a function of the market. He also had a qualifying offer attached which further hindered his market. I don't recall there ever being questions regarding his work ethic.
I forgot about the Qualifying Offer. That would make sense. That same offseason, Hayward got 8/$184, Upton got 6/$132, Cespedes got 3/$75, Gordon got 4/$72, Span got 3/$31. Even Chris Young got a multi-year deal. Outfielders were getting money so that QO scaring teams away would make sense.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 03, 2018, 08:47:06 AM
I forgot about the Qualifying Offer. That would make sense. That same offseason, Hayward got 8/$184, Upton got 6/$132, Cespedes got 3/$75, Gordon got 4/$72, Span got 3/$31. Even Chris Young got a multi-year deal. Outfielders were getting money so that QO scaring teams away would make sense.
Yep. I'm a big Dex fan but I always thought going to 5 years for an OF in his early 30s was questionable. Cain has obviously been really good for Milwaukee but I was also surprised he got 5 years considering those investments in CFs at that age can turn bad quickly.
I'm not saying that will happen with Cain and I understand the move but I'll be curious to see how that turns out.
50. First. :)
Quote from: jsglow on July 03, 2018, 07:05:26 PM
50. First. :)
I assume this refers to the Brewers being first to 50 wins? I suppose, if you're not counting the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, and Mariners.
Quote from: ChuckyChip on July 04, 2018, 08:09:59 AM
I assume this refers to the Brewers being first to 50 wins? I suppose, if you're not counting the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, and Mariners.
I believe it's him being the first to celebrate
Quote from: ChuckyChip on July 04, 2018, 08:09:59 AM
I assume this refers to the Brewers being first to 50 wins? I suppose, if you're not counting the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, and Mariners.
Or that the Cubs and Braves could do it in the same number of games.
Quote from: ChuckyChip on July 04, 2018, 08:09:59 AM
I assume this refers to the Brewers being first to 50 wins? I suppose, if you're not counting the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, and Mariners.
First in NL.
Quote from: drewm88 on July 04, 2018, 09:18:04 AM
Or that the Cubs and Braves could do it in the same number of games.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e268af2fbe68a64f94586539c57dba53/tenor.gif?itemid=3983540)
Quote from: jsglow on July 04, 2018, 09:25:52 AM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e268af2fbe68a64f94586539c57dba53/tenor.gif?itemid=3983540)
I was drunk when I said that Bobby. You could be 2nd 3rd or hell even 5th.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 04, 2018, 09:30:50 AM
I was drunk when I said that Bobby. You could be 2nd 3rd or hell even 5th.
;D
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 02, 2018, 02:40:51 PM
Pretty questionable decision on Mozeliak's part. Critiquing performance is one thing but when you're calling out effort you're questioning the player's character.
in public...maybe. sometimes questioning a players character is what is needed. it could however, backfire. even though mozeliak used a strawman to bolster his assertion, i have no doubt that he has been approached by many people asking-what's up with dexter? on the other hand, dexter could use this as his personal bulletin board motivator-depends on what kind of character he has or not, eyn'a? also, mr mozeliak is trying to defend his personal role/talent evaluation in bringing in a guy who is chitting the bed, another eyn'a, eyn'a?
Who would have guessed that The Cardinal Way^TM - which is mostly just cheating and being haughty - would fall apart when not buttressed by winning?
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 04, 2018, 12:59:08 PM
Who would have guessed that The Cardinal Way^TM - which is mostly just cheating and being haughty - would fall apart when not buttressed by winning?
You forgot the racism.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 04, 2018, 12:59:08 PM
Who would have guessed that The Cardinal Way^TM - which is mostly just cheating and being haughty - would fall apart when not buttressed by winning?
Or when being presided over by Mike Matheny.
Who woulda guessed that the biggest series of the year so far in the NL would be Atlanta vs. Milwaukee this weekend?
Quote from: Jockey on July 04, 2018, 02:24:18 PM
Who woulda guessed that the biggest series of the year so far in the NL would be Atlanta vs. Milwaukee this weekend?
Furst thin' ewe and eye ever agreed on, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 04, 2018, 03:17:57 PM
Furst thin' ewe and eye ever agreed on, hey?
Next thing you know, we'll be best buddies ;D
Quote from: Jockey on July 04, 2018, 03:44:37 PM
Next thing you know, we'll be best buddies ;D
next thing ya know, he's giving you a discount on a root canal err something-2 for the price of 1, ehyn'a? :D
A question about Javy Baez occurred to me yesterday and I thought what better place to go to get an objective opinion than a fan bulletin board with a connection to Milwaukee.
I had never thought about the concept of "the best slider ever". It's just sliding. I have seen highlights of guys avoiding tags before they don't seem to happen often. Javy's Matrix-like slides over the last couple years have me wondering who, if anyone, was a better slider than him? To simultaneously coordinate the location of individual limbs to avoid the tag while hurling your body onto the ground at full speed. To me it's a much more impressive feat than say a diving catch.
Quote from: MUEng92 on July 05, 2018, 06:37:00 AM
A question about Javy Baez occurred to me yesterday and I thought what better place to go to get an objective opinion than a fan bulletin board with a connection to Milwaukee.
I had never thought about the concept of "the best slider ever". It's just sliding. I have seen highlights of guys avoiding tags before they don't seem to happen often. Javy's Matrix-like slides over the last couple years have me wondering who, if anyone, was a better slider than him? To simultaneously coordinate the location of individual limbs to avoid the tag while hurling your body onto the ground at full speed. To me it's a much more impressive feat than say a diving catch.
I'm the best slider in my softball league.
Eye due my slidin' sumplace udder dan da diamond. Unless its May 1 orr later, hey?
Quote from: MUEng92 on July 05, 2018, 06:37:00 AM
A question about Javy Baez occurred to me yesterday and I thought what better place to go to get an objective opinion than a fan bulletin board with a connection to Milwaukee.
I had never thought about the concept of "the best slider ever". It's just sliding. I have seen highlights of guys avoiding tags before they don't seem to happen often. Javy's Matrix-like slides over the last couple years have me wondering who, if anyone, was a better slider than him? To simultaneously coordinate the location of individual limbs to avoid the tag while hurling your body onto the ground at full speed. To me it's a much more impressive feat than say a diving catch.
Most exciting player in baseball. Not to sound like Hawk Harrelson but he is the best slider and tagger I have ever seen.
Quote from: MUEng92 on July 05, 2018, 06:37:00 AM
A question about Javy Baez occurred to me yesterday and I thought what better place to go to get an objective opinion than a fan bulletin board with a connection to Milwaukee.
I had never thought about the concept of "the best slider ever". It's just sliding. I have seen highlights of guys avoiding tags before they don't seem to happen often. Javy's Matrix-like slides over the last couple years have me wondering who, if anyone, was a better slider than him? To simultaneously coordinate the location of individual limbs to avoid the tag while hurling your body onto the ground at full speed. To me it's a much more impressive feat than say a diving catch.
He may not be better than Baez, especially since it's so hard to measure an ability like sliding, but if this conversation is being made, Josh Harrison should be involved. A lot of his tag avoidance's are due to bad base-running that leads to a rundown, but he does have a fair number of, to use your wording, Matrix like slides.
When he learns to stay off a slider, he could be in the HOF.
Ricky Henderson may be a comp for him.
Better catch? I don't remember one.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 05, 2018, 09:12:10 AM
Most exciting player in baseball. Not to sound like Hawk Harrelson but he is the best slider and tagger I have ever seen.
You're wrong. The answer is and always is Yaz.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 05, 2018, 09:46:12 AM
When he learns to stay off a slider, he could be in the HOF.
Ricky Henderson may be a comp for him.
This is idiotic cub bs at its finest.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 05, 2018, 09:46:12 AM
When he learns to stay off a slider, he could be in the HOF.
Ricky Henderson may be a comp for him.
Uh...no.
Quote from: MUDish on July 05, 2018, 09:59:45 AM
You're wrong. The answer is and always is Yaz.
Hahahahaha yes! Hell yes!
Quote from: jsglow on July 05, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
Better catch? I don't remember one.
Not even the best one this week. Pillar had a 10' wall to deal with.
https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/07/01/video-kevin-pillar-climbs-the-wall-to-rob-nick-castellanos-of-a-home-run/
Great catch too.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 05, 2018, 10:13:24 AM
This is idiotic cub bs at its finest.
Let me clarify. The Ricky Henderson comp is in regard to the best at sliding, not the HOF.
My comment on the HOF is in regard to his inability to lay off the slider. The guy has the potential to be a complete five tool player. Whether he can complete his game or not is to be seen. He is sure fun to watch, however.
Even without laying off the slider, he's batting .286 this season and .261 for his career. He's only 25 so hopefully with more experience he can recognize when to layoff the pitch three feet outside the strikezone.
I'm starting to come around the Vander Blue Man Group's line of thinking. At this point the returns of Kris Bryant, Yu Darvish, and Carl Edwards are going to be like trade deadline acquisitions.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 05, 2018, 10:13:24 AM
This is idiotic cub bs at its finest.
Right! I've never seen a White Sox fan make an outlandish comment about a player on his or her team. Only Cubs fan constantly!! ::)
Quote from: jsglow on July 05, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
Better catch? I don't remember one.
this one was nasty too-diving full extension-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGqTkajrWO4
these are his 3 homer stealers-
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/07/05/check-out-all-3-keon-broxtons-game-saving-homer-stealing-grabs/758601002/
now if he could hit 280 +
It's all about plate discipline for Keon.
Keon patrols CF as well as Carlos Gomez in his prime.
Carl Edwards has been activated from the DL.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 06, 2018, 10:40:20 AM
Carl Edwards has been activated from the DL.
Championship assured!
Interesting records within the NL Central:
Cardinals 25-16
Cubs 19-18
Brewers 19-20
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 06, 2018, 03:18:06 PM
Interesting records within the NL Central:
Cardinals 25-16
Cubs 19-18
Brewers 19-20
Interesting. The Cards have essentially split with the Crew. Must be doing reasonably well against everyone else.
Quote from: drewm88 on July 04, 2018, 09:18:04 AM
Or that the Cubs and Braves could do it in the same number of games.
could have. didnt. SAD!
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 05, 2018, 04:18:35 PM
Right! I've never seen a White Sox fan make an outlandish comment about a player on his or her team. Only Cubs fan constantly!! ::)
Not only, but more than any others.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 06, 2018, 08:48:42 PM
Not only, but more than any others.
Is your source your ass?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 06, 2018, 09:03:59 PM
Is your source your ass?
My ass spews less disgusting crap than cub fans. And I currently have diarrhea.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 06, 2018, 09:11:07 PM
My ass spews less disgusting crap than cub fans. And I currently have diarrhea.
Got it - you're very dumb. Thanks for confirming!
Five straight for the Redlegs over the desperate Chubbies.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 06, 2018, 09:23:46 PM
Got it - you're very dumb. Thanks for confirming!
Well I'm not smart enough to defend a Javy Baez- Ricky Henderson comp.
Glad to see you are still over sensitive and quickly devolve to personal insults. Good to know old faithful is still right on schedule.
I'm beginning to think that the Reds are indeed hapless....they just have the Cubs number!
(http://media.giphy.com/media/JLbTqEU5B8Z2w/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on July 06, 2018, 10:13:13 PM
Five straight for the Redlegs over the desperate Chubbies.
Weird that they have become the Cubs nemesis.
Cubs can't beat the Reds.
Reds can't beat the Brewers.
Brewers can't beat the Cubs.
This is why the Cardinals have the best division record.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 07, 2018, 09:44:25 AM
Cubs can't beat the Reds.
Reds can't beat the Brewers.
Brewers can't beat the Cubs.
This is why the Cardinals have the best division record.
Hahaha! What a weird situation.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 07, 2018, 09:44:25 AM
Cubs can't beat the Reds.
Reds can't beat the Brewers.
Brewers can't beat the Cubs.
Cards can't beat anyone else.
This is why the Cardinals have the best division record. But won't sniff the postseason.
FIFY :)
Brent Suter to DL.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 05, 2018, 09:46:12 AM
When he learns to stay off a slider, he could be in the HOF.
Ricky Henderson may be a comp for him.
Couldn't easily get this at the time, but Alexei Ramirez is a much better comp, on the slide. Ricky doesn't apply in any way.
https://www.southsidesox.com/2013/4/29/4283282/alexei-ramirez-pickoff-stolen-bases-swim-move
And the Cubs finally beat the Reds with 4 in the 8th.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 07, 2018, 04:07:45 PM
Couldn't easily get this at the time, but Alexei Ramirez is a much better comp, on the slide. Ricky doesn't apply in any way.
https://www.southsidesox.com/2013/4/29/4283282/alexei-ramirez-pickoff-stolen-bases-swim-move
The OP asked who the comp is on "the best slider ever"? How does Ricky not apply in any way? And Alexei Ramirez does?
The best slider ever?
That's easy ... White Castle!
Seriously, not a single one of us knows who the best slider ever is. I mean, maybe it was Jumpin' Joe Dugan, Earle Combs or somebody else from a zillion years ago.
Quote from: MU82 on July 07, 2018, 06:56:58 PM
The best slider ever?
That's easy ... White Castle!
Seriously, not a single one of us knows who the best slider ever is. I mean, maybe it was Jumpin' Joe Dugan, Earle Combs or somebody else from a zillion years ago.
Only at 2AM for the Castle.
If a HOF voter doesn't have a criteria, then this Scoop puzzle is unsolvable. Ricky used the head first slide with aplomb. I do remember Greg Luzinski employing it one time on a wet day and getting stuck in a mud puddle about five feet in front the base.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 07, 2018, 06:07:16 PM
The OP asked who the comp is on "the best slider ever"? How does Ricky not apply in any way? And Alexei Ramirez does?
Alexei compares to Baez. Not the best slider ever.
If you are saying Ricky is the best ever and in no way compares to Baez, I can't argue with that at all.
Also both the Brewers and Cubs are among 7 teams that have reportedly made offfers for Machado, with the Dodgers currently having made the most attractive offer.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 06, 2018, 10:24:17 PM
Well I'm not smart enough to defend a Javy Baez- Ricky Henderson comp.
Glad to see you are still over sensitive and quickly devolve to personal insults. Good to know old faithful is still right on schedule.
Did I defend a Baez-Henderson comp? Please show me where I did that. I'll be waiting.
I'm not over-sensitive. Somehow, as an over-sensitive Sox fan, you seriously think that one fan base clearly has the market cornered on dumb comments. That, in and of itself, is extremely stupid.
I'm sorry you're surrounded by fans of what is now a much better franchise.
:)
Ty Cobb was a great slider...spikes high.
Pete rose, also a good slider for a slow block guy
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 07, 2018, 10:01:32 PM
Did I defend a Baez-Henderson comp? Please show me where I did that. I'll be waiting.
I'm not over-sensitive. Somehow, as an over-sensitive Sox fan, you seriously think that one fan base clearly has the market cornered on dumb comments. That, in and of itself, is extremely stupid.
I'm sorry you're surrounded by fans of what is now a much better franchise.
:)
youre as oversensitive as they come.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 07, 2018, 10:01:32 PM
Did I defend a Baez-Henderson comp? Please show me where I did that. I'll be waiting.
I'm not over-sensitive. Somehow, as an over-sensitive Sox fan, you seriously think that one fan base clearly has the market cornered on dumb comments. That, in and of itself, is extremely stupid.
I'm sorry you're surrounded by fans of what is now a much better franchise.
:)
You jumped on me when I called it out (understanding now that I misinterpreted what the poster meant). Seemed like you were rushing in like his knight in shining armor. There to defend all Cub fans at all times you noble gentleman you.
I don't think cub fans have the market cornered. I said that explicitly. There are just more baseball illeterate cub fans than in any other fan base I have encountered. The giant bar atmosphere, the little teddy bear, and the former lovable loser mantra lends itself to bandwagoners and hangers on like no other. People who don't watch or care about baseball in northern Illinois are almost without fail, "cub fans".
And yeah, I am, in a way, surronded by Cardinal fans. So I guess you could be right there.
I made the choice years ago to cut cub fans out of my life entirely. Best decision I could have made.
Bryant and Duensing to Tennessee to begin rehab.
Also happens to be Bryant koozie day for the Smokies.
since were making this the transaction list for the nl central
cain activated from the dl.
Dodgers and Brewers have emerged as favorites for Machado according to Ken Rosenthal.
aguilar sends two out today and then is left off the AS roster.
hes on the short list of first half nl mvp.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 08, 2018, 07:00:23 PM
aguilar sends two out today and then is left off the AS roster.
hes on the short list of first half nl mvp.
The all-star fan vote has been a joke since online voting. Really it's always been a joke but.
I was hoping Albert Almora would make it.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 08, 2018, 07:01:24 PM
The all-star fan vote has been a joke since online voting. Really it's always been a joke but.
I'd have taken Aguilar ahead of Cain and Yelich.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 08, 2018, 07:05:25 PM
I'd have taken Aguilar ahead of Cain and Yelich.
Agreed. I think the two outfielders are deserving as well, but I think Aguilar and Hader are the two clear All Stars for the Brewers. Especially since both Cain and Yelich have spent time on the DL this season.
I'm not losing sleep over Aguilar. I think the all star selections should be based on more than just a half-season of production.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 08, 2018, 08:25:27 PM
I'm not losing sleep over Aguilar. I think the all star selections should be based on more than just a half-season of production.
I'm not going to lose sleep over anyone as it's a popularity contest, I just think he's the second most deserving Brewer this year.
The Brewers just released a video with a bunch of players saying, "I'm (enter name) and I believe in Jesus." That's a pretty good social media job.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 08, 2018, 08:25:27 PM
I'm not losing sleep over Aguilar. I think the all star selections should be based on more than just a half-season of production.
Respectfully disagree. I think the 2018 All Star selections should be mainly based on 2018 production.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 08, 2018, 08:53:30 PM
Respectfully disagree. I think the 2018 All Star selections should be mainly based on 2018 production.
For half a year? Nah. I think it should be based on continued production over the past season and a half or so.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 08, 2018, 07:04:01 PM
I was hoping Albert Almora would make it.
This real? Just hoping or any real expectation? Because that would be... well, another of those Cubbie things.
Being tied for 18th in doubles (in the NL) is good and all, but it shouldn't make you an All-Star. Especially considering there are no other even notable power or speed or BB numbers. Maybe his numbers would get you a look if you're a catcher, but not close for an OFer.
I mean, this guy (AL but still...)
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beninan01.shtml
Has to duke it out in the final vote.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 08, 2018, 09:29:20 PM
This real? Just hoping or any real expectation? Because that would be... well, another of those Cubbie things.
It's really not that crazy considering he was leading the NL in batting average this week. Scooter Gennett took a slight lead this week but Almora is still second.
But hey, let's just rip on something because it's Cubs related.
I think the biggest snubs were Snell and Aguilar. I'm sure both will get in from voting or as a replacement.
In addition to taking away the fan vote I'd drop the every team needs a player rule. Bryan LaHair was a Cub All-Star in 2012. Bryan F-ing LaHair.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 08, 2018, 11:27:06 PM
It's really not that crazy considering he was leading the NL in batting average this week. Scooter Gennett took a slight lead this week but Almora is still second.
But hey, let's just rip on something because it's Cubs related.
I just have to wonder, when was the last time an OFer made an All Star team while hitting 4 HRs to go along with 1 steal.
I'm not sure, but I am kind of willing to guess it has never happened.
And while he is 2nd in batting in the NL right now, he is just on the edge of being a qualified player. So he is 30th in hits, has no power, isn't stealing any bases, isn't walking, isn't Andruw Jones in the OF. He has had a nice first half to be sure, and hitting .320 is great, but he hasn't made an all around case to be an All Star.
Rhys Hoskins didn't make the team. He has a higher OBP, SLG and OPS. He has more 2B, more HR, more BB and more SB (and even a better SB%).
Brandon Nimmo has better OBP, SLG, OPS, fewer 2B, but more 3B, more HR, more SB.
David Peralta has better OBP, SLG, OPS, fewer 2B, but more of everything else.
The list could go on and on.
There are a lot of very talented players in the OF in both leagues. A guy needs more than a good BA to make it to the All Star team. Especially now, when BA is being devalued more year by year.
EDIT: Thought of a possibility on those numbers and checked it out, and while he was better (stole one more base -- but the exact numbers weren't the point) very old (39) Tony Gwynn was about at those numbers in 1999, his last All Star appearance. But he was hitting .338, had a OBP just under .400 had K'd 7 times and well, was, most importantly, already a legend.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 08, 2018, 11:33:52 PM
I think the biggest snubs were Snell and Aguilar. I'm sure both will get in from voting or as a replacement.
In addition to taking away the fan vote I'd drop the every team needs a player rule. Bryan LaHair was a Cub All-Star in 2012. Bryan F-ing LaHair.
Snell not making it is ridiculous.
I can understand it with Aguilar just because of the positional crunch. Freeman was leading the vote the entire way and was quite deserving. While Goldy had a bad stretch in May, really made up for it recently and while his numbers may not outpace what Aguilar has done, they are fairly close, and he certainly has the name recognition, which shouldn't matter, but well, sometimes it does (like Sal Perez WTF???).
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 09, 2018, 01:09:19 AM
Snell not making it is ridiculous.
I can understand it with Aguilar just because of the positional crunch. Freeman was leading the vote the entire way and was quite deserving. While Goldy had a bad stretch in May, really made up for it recently and while his numbers may not outpace what Aguilar has done, they are fairly close, and he certainly has the name recognition, which shouldn't matter, but well, sometimes it does (like Sal Perez WTF???).
Aguilar should have made it over Joey Votto. Better numbers across the board.
I was surprised both Cain and Yelich made it. I thought one might sneak in but not both. Kudos to them and kudos to Stearns for adding two All Stars.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 08, 2018, 11:33:52 PM
I think the biggest snubs were Snell and Aguilar. I'm sure both will get in from voting or as a replacement.
In addition to taking away the fan vote I'd drop the every team needs a player rule. Bryan LaHair was a Cub All-Star in 2012. Bryan F-ing LaHair.
Castro also made the ASG that season so LaHair wasn't there simply as a team rep. He was legit voted in by his peers. In his defense, it was a weak 1B class (only other NL 1B was Votto) and the guy hit around .300 for most of the first half and had 14 HRs and a .519 slugging at the break. His numbers were solid even if it was a pretty flukish stretch. That said, he hasn't played an MLB game since 2012 so in hindsight it seems ridiculous.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 08, 2018, 11:27:06 PM
It's really not that crazy considering he was leading the NL in batting average this week. Scooter Gennett took a slight lead this week but Almora is still second.
But hey, let's just rip on something because it's Cubs related.
Curious about Almora's chances if he had played more. Schwarber and Bryant wouldn't have been crazy picks, either, but I'm not surprised or upset they were left off. I think Morrow had a good case and has a decent chance of being a replacement if a couple pitchers get bumped.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on July 09, 2018, 07:21:20 AM
Aguilar should have made it over Joey Votto. Better numbers across the board.
I was surprised both Cain and Yelich made it. I thought one might sneak in but not both. Kudos to them and kudos to Stearns for adding two All Stars.
Also his OPS is well above Freeman and Votto, His counting numbers are also better despite 100 fewer ABs.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 08, 2018, 08:58:46 PM
For half a year? Nah. I think it should be based on continued production over the past season and a half or so.
I guess taking post All Star game stats from the previous year makes some sense. Going back farther? Nope - those stats count for the previous AS game - there's one every year.
Something that shocks me:
Cubs records through 87 games:
2015 47-40
2016 52-35
2017 43-44
2018 51-36
I thought the cubs were doing way better in 2016 compared to 2018. I guess the weaker nl central gave way to me thinking just how much better the cubs were in 16'. I never dreamed they were only 1 game behind pace.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 09, 2018, 03:57:25 PM
Something that shocks me:
Cubs records through 87 games:
2015 47-40
2016 52-35
2017 43-44
2018 51-36
I feel like the Cubs have been slow starters each of the past four years. Here's that first 87 with winning percentages as well as the winning percentage for the 75:
2015 47-40 .540 WP
2016 52-35 .598 WP
2017 43-44 .494 WP
2018 51-36 .586 WP
Cubs final 75 games:
2015 50-25 .667 WP
2016 51-23* .689 WP
2017 49-26 .653 WP
2018 ??-??
The Cubs only played 161 in 2016, so the number is slightly skewed, but they generally tend to play far better in the back half of the season. If the average winning percentage of the past three seasons after those first 87 games holds up, the Cubs can be expected to go 50-25 the rest of the way and 101-61 for the season.
Yeah, but in the last 2 years at least they traded for Chapman, Quintana and Wilson to help buoy them in the second half. Do they have that move in them this season? Their farm is depleted (having a top guy popped for roids last week doesn't help that...), and they haven't been willing to talk about guys on their roster in the past.
The Brewers seem poised to make that big move, but will they? The trade deadline this year will be super interesting with some possibly game changing talent switching jerseys. Machado could completely throw the balance in a very tight NL Central or NL West.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 09, 2018, 05:39:04 PM
Yeah, but in the last 2 years at least they traded for Chapman, Quintana and Wilson to help buoy them in the second half. Do they have that move in them this season? Their farm is depleted (having a top guy popped for roids last week doesn't help that...), and they haven't been willing to talk about guys on their roster in the past.
The Brewers seem poised to make that big move, but will they? The trade deadline this year will be super interesting with some possibly game changing talent switching jerseys. Machado could completely throw the balance in a very tight NL Central or NL West.
Fake news. Cubs don't do that.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 09, 2018, 05:39:04 PM
Yeah, but in the last 2 years at least they traded for Chapman, Quintana and Wilson to help buoy them in the second half. Do they have that move in them this season? Their farm is depleted (having a top guy popped for roids last week doesn't help that...), and they haven't been willing to talk about guys on their roster in the past.
The Brewers seem poised to make that big move, but will they? The trade deadline this year will be super interesting with some possibly game changing talent switching jerseys. Machado could completely throw the balance in a very tight NL Central or NL West.
I don't know if it's soley the deadline moves. I don't think Wilson was very good last year and Quintana only pitches 1 out of every 5 games. Maybe the psychological effect. Doesn't Maddon tinker around early and guys typically settle into their roles in the second half?
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 09, 2018, 01:02:00 AM
I just have to wonder, when was the last time an OFer made an All Star team while hitting 4 HRs to go along with 1 steal.
I'm not sure, but I am kind of willing to guess it has never happened.
And while he is 2nd in batting in the NL right now, he is just on the edge of being a qualified player. So he is 30th in hits, has no power, isn't stealing any bases, isn't walking, isn't Andruw Jones in the OF. He has had a nice first half to be sure, and hitting .320 is great, but he hasn't made an all around case to be an All Star.
Rhys Hoskins didn't make the team. He has a higher OBP, SLG and OPS. He has more 2B, more HR, more BB and more SB (and even a better SB%).
Brandon Nimmo has better OBP, SLG, OPS, fewer 2B, but more 3B, more HR, more SB.
David Peralta has better OBP, SLG, OPS, fewer 2B, but more of everything else.
The list could go on and on.
There are a lot of very talented players in the OF in both leagues. A guy needs more than a good BA to make it to the All Star team. Especially now, when BA is being devalued more year by year.
EDIT: Thought of a possibility on those numbers and checked it out, and while he was better (stole one more base -- but the exact numbers weren't the point) very old (39) Tony Gwynn was about at those numbers in 1999, his last All Star appearance. But he was hitting .338, had a OBP just under .400 had K'd 7 times and well, was, most importantly, already a legend.
The good news is that it's only the snooze-fest known as the All-Star Game.
I'm falling asleep as I write this just thinking about it.
Quote from: MU82 on July 09, 2018, 09:22:08 PM
The good news is that it's only the snooze-fest known as the All-Star Game.
I'm falling asleep as I write this just thinking about it.
The baseball All Star game is awesome.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 09, 2018, 10:01:22 PM
The baseball All Star game is awesome.
Agree. I remember as a kid and even a young adult really looking forward to it. Not the same with so many games on TV, but it's the only all star game worth watching.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 09, 2018, 10:01:22 PM
The baseball All Star game is awesome.
Might be the first thing we agree on.
It would be nice, however, to see the National League win a game now and then.
I would love for baseball to add a skills contest.
Set up the Tom Emanski garbage can behind the plate (and maybe the bases) and have outfielders try to throw it in. Having a bunting contest with more points the better the spot. Home to first speed. Maybe a pitch location contest. Lots of fun stuff you could do.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 09, 2018, 10:59:01 PM
I would love for baseball to add a skills contest.
Set up the Tom Emanski garbage can behind the plate (and maybe the bases) and have outfielders try to throw it in. Having a bunting contest with more points the better the spot. Home to first speed. Maybe a pitch location contest. Lots of fun stuff you could do.
This is why my rotator cuff in my right arm is shot. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, McGriff.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 09, 2018, 10:01:22 PM
The baseball All Star game is awesome.
It's the only All-star game I'll watch.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 10, 2018, 08:22:49 AM
It's the only All-star game I'll watch.
Me, too, because it is the only all-star games where the players are giving their best on both offense and defense, and the nature of the sport is such that you don't have to be teammates for an extended period of time to play well together.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 09, 2018, 03:57:25 PM
Something that shocks me:
Cubs records through 87 games:
2015 47-40
2016 52-35
2017 43-44
2018 51-36
I thought the cubs were doing way better in 2016 compared to 2018. I guess the weaker nl central gave way to me thinking just how much better the cubs were in 16'. I never dreamed they were only 1 game behind pace.
The reason for the similar records in 2016 and 2018 is the Cubs had a 5-15 stretch (or something similar) leading right up to the break in 2016. Then they basically dominated the rest of the way.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 09, 2018, 01:02:00 AM
I just have to wonder, when was the last time an OFer made an All Star team while hitting 4 HRs to go along with 1 steal.
I'm not sure, but I am kind of willing to guess it has never happened.
And while he is 2nd in batting in the NL right now, he is just on the edge of being a qualified player. So he is 30th in hits, has no power, isn't stealing any bases, isn't walking, isn't Andruw Jones in the OF. He has had a nice first half to be sure, and hitting .320 is great, but he hasn't made an all around case to be an All Star.
Rhys Hoskins didn't make the team. He has a higher OBP, SLG and OPS. He has more 2B, more HR, more BB and more SB (and even a better SB%).
Brandon Nimmo has better OBP, SLG, OPS, fewer 2B, but more 3B, more HR, more SB.
David Peralta has better OBP, SLG, OPS, fewer 2B, but more of everything else.
The list could go on and on.
There are a lot of very talented players in the OF in both leagues. A guy needs more than a good BA to make it to the All Star team. Especially now, when BA is being devalued more year by year.
EDIT: Thought of a possibility on those numbers and checked it out, and while he was better (stole one more base -- but the exact numbers weren't the point) very old (39) Tony Gwynn was about at those numbers in 1999, his last All Star appearance. But he was hitting .338, had a OBP just under .400 had K'd 7 times and well, was, most importantly, already a legend.
I agree that Almora shouldn't make it but he does have an OPS of .810, an OPS+ of 114, and an wRC+ of 118, so he's not just a slap hitter. He does have a bit of pop despite having only 4 HRs, however I do expect his average to regress a bit in the 2nd half.
He also has a bWAR of 2.4 and a fWAR of 1.7. While he is not Andruw Jones in CF he has played GG caliber defense, which typically doesn't matter in terms of an ASG selection. Here are the WARs of the other players you mentioned.
Hoskins: bWAR - 0.1/fWAR - 1.2
Nimmo: bWAR - 2.3/fWAR - 2.5
Peralta: bWAR - 2.5/fWAR - 2.2
Again, I agree that he didn't deserve to make the team but I don't think it's some sort of completely outlandish thought when you look at the overall value of the player.
FYI for Schwarber: bWAR - 2.0/fWAR - 2.6
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 09, 2018, 10:52:10 PM
It would be nice, however, to see the National League win a game now and then.
Thankfully the home field gimmick is over. A horrible idea that lasted far too long. Best record is the way to go, though the disparity in the AL this year at least has me wondering if alternating has its benefits.
Especially after last night's Giants game--Anthony Rizzo: Hungover, hurt or has become a head-case?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 10, 2018, 03:03:14 PM
Especially after last night's Giants game--Anthony Rizzo: Hungover, hurt or has become a head-case?
The only reasonable thought there is the one in the middle. Here's a post that shows there are some underlying concerns but that he's also been extremely unlucky this year:
http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/07/10/anthony-rizzos-groundball-rate-has-done-some-weird-stuff-this-year-and-its-gnawing-at-me/
The Cubs need him and Bryant to produce as expected in the 2nd half.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 10, 2018, 04:05:03 PM
The only reasonable thought there is the one in the middle. Here's a post that shows there are some underlying concerns but that he's also been extremely unlucky this year:
http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/07/10/anthony-rizzos-groundball-rate-has-done-some-weird-stuff-this-year-and-its-gnawing-at-me/
The Cubs need him and Bryant to produce as expected in the 2nd half.
His fielding and hustle/effort last night was particularly poor. Joe yanked him on a flip last night and is sitting him tonight.
So Corbin Burnes looked okay...
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 10, 2018, 06:08:47 PM
His fielding and hustle/effort last night was particularly poor. Joe yanked him on a flip last night and is sitting him tonight.
His two errors were terrible but the run actually scored on the play due to Javy's lack of urgency. Maddon has also removed him a number of times in extras on double-switches or for a pinch runner so that's not terribly unusual.
As for the night off, he's been scuffling, the Cubs are facing a lefty, and Maddon likes to sit guys before an off day so they get two days in a row. Again, nothing particularly unusual.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 10, 2018, 09:19:36 PM
So Corbin Burnes looked okay...
Does he get dealt to Baltimore?
Schwarber and Baez will be in the homerun derby.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 10, 2018, 10:21:22 PM
Does he get dealt to Baltimore?
I don't think Machado will cost us Burnes. One of our surplus OFs, plus Ortiz or Woodruff, and then were talking. Top guys just don't get traded for rentals anymore (see the JD Martinez trade).
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 11, 2018, 06:23:01 AM
Top guys just don't get traded for rentals anymore (see the JD Martinez trade).
2016 Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 11, 2018, 07:13:54 AM
2016 Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman
Yeah but that was an outlier considering the 108 years.
I think the Orioles will get a pretty solid return for Manny. He is in pretty high demand, with a lot of teams with good farm systems in on the bidding. Detroit seemingly just made a bad teade with JD, possibly because of lack of demand, but I think someone will pony up for Manny. And if I am the Brewers, putting him in the lineup in a position where they have had minimal production could make a big difference. I like Saladino and all, but he aint Manny.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 11, 2018, 06:23:01 AM
I don't think Machado will cost us Burnes. One of our surplus OFs, plus Ortiz or Woodruff, and then were talking. Top guys just don't get traded for rentals anymore (see the JD Martinez trade).
LA traded a Top 50 prospect (Calhoun) for Darvish last season.
The Brewers only have 2 Top 100 prospects (Hiura and Burnes). If they aren't willing to give either of them up, they're not getting Machado. The O's have reportedly already received 7 offers. You really think that the best offer for a top 10 player is going to be built around a 25yo AAA pitcher and a fourth outfielder?
Now, if the Brewers would take Chris Davis too, that could be a different story.
Line of thinking now is that Burnes is only dealt if it returns pitching. A+/AA are stocked with pitching talent that might go in exchange for a bat. Ortiz and Medeiros are most commonly mentioned, but I'd expect teams are going to be asking for Zack Brown and Diplan.
Jed Hoyer on the Score:
"We're going to be talking to a lot of teams about pitching and pitching depth ahead of the deadline."
"There's nothing I want more than to have (Darvish) out there pitching well, but at the same time we have to go forward thinking about our depth...about having enough pitching. Yu coming back would be fantastic but injuries can linger & we need to be aware of that."
On bullpen depth: "We got away with it in '16 riding (Aroldis) Chapman hard. We probably didn't have the necessary depth in the bullpen ... The game is played different in the playoffs."
This Juan Soto kid aint bad for a 19 year old I guess.
Brewers oughta trade four Derek Dietrich, hey?
Luis Ortiz pulled from his start 49 pitches in...
Quote from: wadesworld on July 11, 2018, 12:22:53 PM
Luis Ortiz pulled from his start 49 pitches in...
I wouldn't read too much into that. In his previous 2 appearances (1 in relief, 1 start), he's thrown 51 and 54 pitches. He hasn't pitched more than 4 innings since mid-April.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 11, 2018, 10:47:34 AM
Jed Hoyer on the Score:
"We're going to be talking to a lot of teams about pitching and pitching depth ahead of the deadline."
"There's nothing I want more than to have (Darvish) out there pitching well, but at the same time we have to go forward thinking about our depth...about having enough pitching. Yu coming back would be fantastic but injuries can linger & we need to be aware of that."
On bullpen depth: "We got away with it in '16 riding (Aroldis) Chapman hard. We probably didn't have the necessary depth in the bullpen ... The game is played different in the playoffs."
The Cubs have reportedly been scouting LHP JA Happ, LHP Robbie Erlin (in SD system when Hoyer was there) and LHP Matt Moore (played for Maddon/Hickey in TB). Not exactly a who's who of star pitchers but it does say something about the team's confidence in lefties Duensing and Wilson.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 11, 2018, 12:37:38 PM
I wouldn't read too much into that. In his previous 2 appearances (1 in relief, 1 start), he's thrown 51 and 54 pitches. He hasn't pitched more than 4 innings since mid-April.
Agreed. Had he been a late scratch, then it would look like something is imminent. This is inline with his normal workload.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 11, 2018, 12:37:38 PM
I wouldn't read too much into that. In his previous 2 appearances (1 in relief, 1 start), he's thrown 51 and 54 pitches. He hasn't pitched more than 4 innings since mid-April.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on July 11, 2018, 12:47:48 PM
Agreed. Had he been a late scratch, then it would look like something is imminent. This is inline with his normal workload.
Got it, didn't realize that. Thanks.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 11, 2018, 12:46:42 PM
The Cubs have reportedly been scouting LHP JA Happ, LHP Robbie Erlin (in SD system when Hoyer was there) and LHP Matt Moore (played for Maddon/Hickey in TB). Not exactly a who's who of star pitchers but it does say something about the team's confidence in lefties Duensing and Wilson.
I have zero confidence in Wilson, though he threw a nice inning last night.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 11, 2018, 12:46:42 PM
The Cubs have reportedly been scouting LHP JA Happ, LHP Robbie Erlin (in SD system when Hoyer was there) and LHP Matt Moore (played for Maddon/Hickey in TB). Not exactly a who's who of star pitchers but it does say something about the team's confidence in lefties Duensing and Wilson.
Is that the same Matt Moore who may be the only pitcher in the league who could possibly walk more hitters than Chatwood? ;D
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 11, 2018, 08:47:50 AM
I think the Orioles will get a pretty solid return for Manny. He is in pretty high demand, with a lot of teams with good farm systems in on the bidding. Detroit seemingly just made a bad teade with JD, possibly because of lack of demand, but I think someone will pony up for Manny. And if I am the Brewers, putting him in the lineup in a position where they have had minimal production could make a big difference. I like Saladino and all, but he aint Manny.
Baltimore screwed up by keeping him this long. Price goes down every day.
Quote@JimBowdenGM
Hearing that #Brewers have discussed package that would send:
1. Corbin Burnes RHP
2. Keon Broxton CF
3. Orlando Arcia SS
to #Orioles for Manny Machado.
Not confirmed.
As a Cubs fan, I want the Brewers to do this.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 11, 2018, 01:37:17 PM
As a Cubs fan, I want the Brewers to do this.
That would be a terrible trade for the Brewers.
BTW, I thought Machado had already fallen in love with the Cubs. https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/chicago-cubs-addison-russell-manny-machado-theo-epstein-baltimore-orioles/ (https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/chicago-cubs-addison-russell-manny-machado-theo-epstein-baltimore-orioles/)
Heyman just followed up (sorry for just typing rather than copy/paste quoting): "don't like to shoot down every rumor out there (partly because I don't like my own rumors shot down!). but rest easy milwaukeeans, brewers are not sending a package of burnes, broxton and arcia for machado. not all 3. no way."
1. Good.
2. Bowden is probably the least knowledgeable baseball insider in the business, so Imma trust Heyman here.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 11, 2018, 01:44:34 PM
Heyman just followed up (sorry for just typing rather than copy/paste quoting): "don't like to shoot down every rumor out there (partly because I don't like my own rumors shot down!). but rest easy milwaukeeans, brewers are not sending a package of burnes, broxton and arcia for machado. not all 3. no way."
1. Good.
2. Bowden is probably the least knowledgeable baseball insider in the business, so Imma trust Heyman here.
That being said, if teams are willing to part with real players for packages built around Keon Broxton, by all means.
I wouldn't blink an eye sending Broxton or Arcia. Burnes in a deal for a 3 month rental wouldn't be great. If you flopped Ortiz for Burnes in that deal I'd be just fine with it.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 11, 2018, 01:37:17 PM
As a Cubs fan, I want the Brewers to do this.
If Stearns hadn't waived Scooter, the Brewers could be using these assets to grab pitching help.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 11, 2018, 01:49:12 PM
If Stearns hadn't waived Scooter, the Brewers could be using these assets to grab pitching help.
Maybe, maybe not. If you keep Scooter on the Brewers there's no guarantee he produces as he is for the Reds. He just wasn't very good with the Brewers.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 11, 2018, 01:53:36 PM
Maybe, maybe not. If you keep Scooter on the Brewers there's no guarantee he produces as he is for the Reds. He just wasn't very good with the Brewers.
He is a career .289 hitter waived for no return. As good as Stearns has been, this move was a stinker.
Btw, I think Counsel deserves more credit than Stearns for the Brewers' success. He may be the best manager in baseball this year. He manages his roster magnificently and is particularly good with his pitching moves.
What about Dozier? Read that the Brewers asked the Twins about him. Getting a 2017 version of Dozier would suffice instead of Machado. The 2018 version would still be an upgrade over what we've got.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 11, 2018, 01:44:34 PM
Bowden is probably the least knowledgeable baseball insider in the business, so Imma trust Heyman here.
This.
He comes up with lots of trades that make absolutely no sense for either team and never happen.
*Not Confirmed*
I love that part. You can tweet anything you want and just say it's not confirmed. That is the age we live in.
Brewers package for Manny Machado:
1. Robin Yount
2. Rollie Fingers
3. Paul Molitor
Not Confirmed
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 11, 2018, 02:00:30 PM
He is a career .289 hitter waived for no return. As good as Stearns has been, this move was a stinker.
Btw, I think Counsel deserves more credit than Stearns for the Brewers' success. He may be the best manager in baseball this year. He manages his roster magnificently and is particularly good with his pitching moves.
Derek Johnson deserves a ton of credit. The pitching has far outperformed the perceived level of talent since he got to Milwaukee.
Not as high on Coles. Have my doubts between all the shutouts and what seems an unusual number of cases of players falling off the face of the earth after a career year at an age when they should be getting better (Villar, Santana, Arcia).
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 11, 2018, 01:44:34 PM
Heyman just followed up (sorry for just typing rather than copy/paste quoting): "don't like to shoot down every rumor out there (partly because I don't like my own rumors shot down!). but rest easy milwaukeeans, brewers are not sending a package of burnes, broxton and arcia for machado. not all 3. no way."
1. Good.
2. Bowden is probably the least knowledgeable baseball insider in the business, so Imma trust Heyman here.
He does a weekly radio show with the cousin on the Orioles gm though. Who knows, maybe it was the orioles ask, or maybe he made it up.
I didn't know much about Burnes, so I looked him up, and I know he had been great leading up to this season, but he has basically been BP in AAA, and while I know the PCL is terrible for pitching, it seems weird that a guy with a 5.15 ERA in AAA is untouchable for a guy that could help the Brewers win their first World Series.
Admittedly I didn't read any scouting reports or anything and maybe it is easily explained. He certainly had been dominant up until this year, but you'd think that is at least some cause for concern.
Ok after quickly looking at a scouting report, it seems like his best attribute has been great control, and he is walking 3.5 per 9 this season in AAA, something mechanical maybe? More advanced hitters not stretching the zone as much? Anyone know?
Agui earned it baby. ;D True MVP candidate at the break.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 11, 2018, 06:39:33 PM
He does a weekly radio show with the cousin on the Orioles gm though. Who knows, maybe it was the orioles ask, or maybe he made it up.
I didn't know much about Burnes, so I looked him up, and I know he had been great leading up to this season, but he has basically been BP in AAA, and while I know the PCL is terrible for pitching, it seems weird that a guy with a 5.15 ERA in AAA is untouchable for a guy that could help the Brewers win their first World Series.
Admittedly I didn't read any scouting reports or anything and maybe it is easily explained. He certainly had been dominant up until this year, but you'd think that is at least some cause for concern.
Ok after quickly looking at a scouting report, it seems like his best attribute has been great control, and he is walking 3.5 per 9 this season in AAA, something mechanical maybe? More advanced hitters not stretching the zone as much? Anyone know?
What I've read is it is due to Colorado Springs and most of his bad outings were at home. One of the reasons the Brewers will be getting out of there. My guess with the walks is he's trying to avoid contact and that results in more walks.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 11, 2018, 06:39:33 PM
I didn't know much about Burnes, so I looked him up, and I know he had been great leading up to this season, but he has basically been BP in AAA, and while I know the PCL is terrible for pitching, it seems weird that a guy with a 5.15 ERA in AAA is untouchable for a guy that could help the Brewers win their first World Series.
That is a better ERA than Josh Hader had in either of his seasons pitching in Colorado Springs. A pitcher's ERA pitching there is about as important as the color of their hair.
Excellent article on what Machado is worth on the trade market. FanGraphs, of course.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-precedent-for-a-manny-machado-trade/
This Cardinal thing keeps getting better and better.
https://deadspin.com/extremely-cardinals-report-mike-matheny-respects-bud-n-1827528307
Matheny is the worst manager in baseball. I hope he is in St. Louis for years to come.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 12, 2018, 09:15:59 AM
This Cardinal thing keeps getting better and better.
https://deadspin.com/extremely-cardinals-report-mike-matheny-respects-bud-n-1827528307
My general rule of thumb is that any time you hear a coach, fan, player, etc. say a sport is "getting soft," what they are basically saying is "the world has changed and I don't know how to adopt to these changes."
Quote from: Jockey on July 11, 2018, 11:31:40 PM
That is a better ERA than Josh Hader had in either of his seasons pitching in Colorado Springs. A pitcher's ERA pitching there is about as important as the color of their hair.
Well, I knew it was a bad place to pitch but that adds some perspective. Thanks.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 12, 2018, 10:07:30 AM
Well, I knew it was a bad place to pitch but that adds some perspective. Thanks.
Hasn't his ERA been affected a lot by a transition to the bullpen so they could get him up to the majors this year? Read in the JSO the other day that he was still trying to figure out how to get himself ready to pitch vs. a starting role.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 12, 2018, 09:15:59 AM
This Cardinal thing keeps getting better and better.
https://deadspin.com/extremely-cardinals-report-mike-matheny-respects-bud-n-1827528307
Bud Norris is a piece of sh*t. Matheny is probably going to get a fired after this season, which is disappointing as he's terrible.
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on July 12, 2018, 10:09:08 AM
Hasn't his ERA been affected a lot by a transition to the bullpen so they could get him up to the majors this year? Read in the JSO the other day that he was still trying to figure out how to get himself ready to pitch vs. a starting role.
Looking at his numbers, he only had 6 appearances out of the pen and 13 starts, so I can't imagine the relief appearances making that much of a difference.
By the way, did anyone see the Rockies pitcher hit a homer off the DBacks position player yesterday? What a game.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 12, 2018, 10:53:53 AM
By the way, did anyone see the Rockies pitcher hit a homer off the DBacks position player yesterday? What a game.
Dbacks pitchers: 3.1 IP, 16 ER, 17 H
Dbacks position players: 4.2 IP, 3 ER, 5 H
They went to a position player in the 4TH INNING! Not only that but Descalso went from 2B to pitcher and then to 1B. That's Little League stuff right there.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 12, 2018, 11:35:41 AM
Dbacks pitchers: 3.1 IP, 16 ER, 17 H
Dbacks position players: 4.2 IP, 3 ER, 5 H
They went to a position player in the 4TH INNING! Not only that but Descalso went from 2B to pitcher and then to 1B. That's Little League stuff right there.
Last time that happened that early in a game was Sal Bando for the Brewers back in the '70s.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 12, 2018, 11:35:41 AM
Dbacks pitchers: 3.1 IP, 16 ER, 17 H
Dbacks position players: 4.2 IP, 3 ER, 5 H
They went to a position player in the 4TH INNING! Not only that but Descalso went from 2B to pitcher and then to 1B. That's Little League stuff right there.
I've got no problem with it. None. Why waste the pitchers? These days, it's rare that a team get a chance to not use its bullpen, whether the game is close, a blowout or something in-between.
And it gives both DBacks fans, baseball fans and interwebs folks like us something to talk about.
More teams should do it.
Of course, the first time one of these position players suffers a serious injury while pitching, it will be hell to pay for the manager ...
Quote from: MU82 on July 13, 2018, 08:06:33 AM
I've got no problem with it. None. Why waste the pitchers? These days, it's rare that a team get a chance to not use its bullpen, whether the game is close, a blowout or something in-between.
And it gives both DBacks fans, baseball fans and interwebs folks like us something to talk about.
More teams should do it.
Of course, the first time one of these position players suffers a serious injury while pitching, it will be hell to pay for the manager ...
I agree. It's fun and (usually) harmless. It's a long season and getting blown out in July isn't going to make or break things. Why not have some fun with it?
Jose Canseco blew out his arm pitching an inning for Texas in the mid-90s. There's a reason it's usually utility guys and back-up catchers.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 13, 2018, 08:18:19 AM
I agree. It's fun and (usually) harmless. It's a long season and getting blown out in July isn't going to make or break things. Why not have some fun with it?
Jose Canseco blew out his arm pitching an inning for Texas in the mid-90s. There's a reason it's usually utility guys and back-up catchers.
Good point, MM.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 13, 2018, 08:18:19 AM
Jose Canseco blew out his arm pitching an inning for Texas in the mid-90s.
(insert wadesworld/Jake Arrieta joke here)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 13, 2018, 08:18:19 AM
I agree. It's fun and (usually) harmless. It's a long season and getting blown out in July isn't going to make or break things. Why not have some fun with it?
Jose Canseco blew out his arm pitching an inning for Texas in the mid-90s. There's a reason it's usually utility guys and back-up catchers.
Canseco was also a meathead who likely tried to just chuck it as hard as he could. Descalso and Avila were pitchers at times in their careers (even if HS, I think Avila said he pitched a few times in college), so at least they understood the mechanics.
Nice article on Javy being the most exciting player in baseball:
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24080545/chicago-cubs-javier-baez-most-exciting-player-baseball (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24080545/chicago-cubs-javier-baez-most-exciting-player-baseball)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 13, 2018, 04:43:20 PM
Nice article on Javy being the most exciting player in baseball:
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24080545/chicago-cubs-javier-baez-most-exciting-player-baseball (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24080545/chicago-cubs-javier-baez-most-exciting-player-baseball)
From Jesse Rogers? Javy may as well have written it himself. Have you watched any exciting non Cub players this season? Angels games? Rockie games? Indians games? Just curious. You may enjoy watching Trout, Arenado, Ramirez among others.
I watch very little baseball outside of Brewers games until October. So for me the most exciting player is Hader and it's not really even close.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 13, 2018, 05:33:53 PM
I watch very little baseball outside of Brewers games until October. So for me the most exciting player is Hader and it's not really even close.
I find him completely boring. He strikes everyone out. It is a very predictable outcome.
Even highlights though? You see Betts slam on the 13th pitch of an AB? Arenado barehanding and gunning out a guy at home? Some pretty great stuff, yesterday.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 13, 2018, 05:24:05 PM
From Jesse Rogers? Javy may as well have written it himself. Have you watched any exciting non Cub players this season? Angels games? Rockie games? Indians games? Just curious. You may enjoy watching Trout, Arenado, Ramirez among others.
Trout is the best player in baseball but when you combine all the facets and what Javy has done offensively, running the bases, and defensively, yes he is absolutely among the most exciting. Exciting does not mean best.
And Jesse Rogers is certainly not the only person in the media that has expressed this sentiment.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 13, 2018, 05:24:05 PM
From Jesse Rogers? Javy may as well have written it himself. Have you watched any exciting non Cub players this season? Angels games? Rockie games? Indians games? Just curious. You may enjoy watching Trout, Arenado, Ramirez among others.
Arenado I think is a valid argument due to his fielding prowess. Trout is one of the best, most consistent hitters of all time, but he's not as fast and is just a solid defensive center fielder. Ramirez is probably a similar comp due to his intangibles.
I think you're confusing "best" with "exciting". Part of what makes Baez exciting is his inconsistency. Its infuriating as well, but my god you never know what he's going to do. His flair for the game I think has a lot to do with it as well. The slides, the tags, the daring base running, he's got a very visually appealing game. I don't think he's even close to the same league as a complete player to Arenado or Ramirez, but he's exciting as hell.
Its not an open and shut case, but to act like its a preposterous statement is just standard Cubs shade. Dominique Wilkins was never close to a top 5 player in the NBA, but everyone can agree he was super exciting.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 13, 2018, 06:06:37 PM
Dominique Wilkins was never close to a top 5 player in the NBA, but everyone can agree he was super exciting.
Great analogy!
Quote from: JWags85 on July 13, 2018, 06:06:37 PM
Arenado I think is a valid argument due to his fielding prowess. Trout is one of the best, most consistent hitters of all time, but he's not as fast and is just a solid defensive center fielder. Ramirez is probably a similar comp due to his intangibles.
I think you're confusing "best" with "exciting". Part of what makes Baez exciting is his inconsistency. Its infuriating as well, but my god you never know what he's going to do. His flair for the game I think has a lot to do with it as well. The slides, the tags, the daring base running, he's got a very visually appealing game. I don't think he's even close to the same league as a complete player to Arenado or Ramirez, but he's exciting as hell.
Its not an open and shut case, but to act like its a preposterous statement is just standard Cubs shade. Dominique Wilkins was never close to a top 5 player in the NBA, but everyone can agree he was super exciting.
No, he is faster. This is Mike Trout ignorance. He is fairly routinely stat-casted over 20 MPH and has completely elite speed. Basically since he was drafted he has had 70-80 grade speed.
I didn't act like it was preposterous. Though to make that statement over and over and over again, as Cub fans and the Chicago media have, is preposterous. He is an exciting player. There are scores more that are at least as exciting. Yeah, Baez is quick, and has elite bat speed. So do a bunch of other guys.
Everything you wrote about Baez, directly applies to Tim Anderson, should he be in the conversation? No clearly not. Moncada has elite tools all the way around, but he isn't nearly as exciting as some of the other guys right now because his game isn't complete. It is insane that people are bored with Trout because he is too good. He isn't exciting because we expect him to be amazing. That says it all right there. I also do wonder, as I did earlier, how much Mike Trout do most baseball fans see? My guess is not much, and if you consider yourself a fan of the game, you should seek out watching him. Your opinion of him being not exciting would change. He does things on the baseball field that no one else does, and he does them every week.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 13, 2018, 06:06:18 PM
Trout is the best player in baseball but when you combine all the facets and what Javy has done offensively, running the bases, and defensively, yes he is absolutely among the most exciting. Exciting does not mean best.
And Jesse Rogers is certainly not the only person in the media that has expressed this sentiment.
That is a key word that has not been used in this conversation previously.
Mookie Betts, Jose Altuve, Francisco Lindor, Trea Turner, Ozzie Albies, Paul Goldschmidt, Juan Soto are all guys that belong in there, and heck, how everyone is setting up Baez as the most exciting, he doesn't hold a candle to Yasiel Puig in those categories.
Mookie is the most exciting player in baseball.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 13, 2018, 10:04:21 PM
No, he is faster. This is Mike Trout ignorance. He is fairly routinely stat-casted over 20 MPH and has completely elite speed. Basically since he was drafted he has had 70-80 grade speed.
I dropped a word or two mid-thought. Trout isn't as fast as he used to be, is what I'm saying. And he hasn't been graded as a very good fielder in quite some time. He's solid, but not exceptional. His bat is unreal and he's a great baserunner, but he's not an elite defender anymore, objectively or by sabermetrics.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 13, 2018, 10:04:21 PM
Everything you wrote about Baez, directly applies to Tim Anderson, should he be in the conversation? No clearly not. Moncada has elite tools all the way around, but he isn't nearly as exciting as some of the other guys right now because his game isn't complete. It is insane that people are bored with Trout because he is too good. He isn't exciting because we expect him to be amazing. That says it all right there. I also do wonder, as I did earlier, how much Mike Trout do most baseball fans see? My guess is not much, and if you consider yourself a fan of the game, you should seek out watching him. Your opinion of him being not exciting would change. He does things on the baseball field that no one else does, and he does them every week.
Baez is the best in baseball at two things, applying tags and sliding. Both are critical components of bang bang plays, often in decisive moments, and are exciting components of games. I think thats where much of it comes from. And the difference between Baez and Tim Anderson is that Baez is a much better player across the board. Same with Moncada. Its one thing to be the same type of player, its another to be the best 1-2 of that type of player.
Nobody has ever said Mike Trout is boring. But again, mentioning exciting vs best, part of the exciting is being in big moments where plays matter and Trout is again on a team thats 9 games out of the playoff race. And thats not his fault, but some of the insane hitting he does doesn't feel as exhilarating when its to bring his team to within 3 runs in a game they still lose.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 13, 2018, 10:05:30 PM
That is a key word that has not been used in this conversation previously.
Mookie Betts, Jose Altuve, Francisco Lindor, Trea Turner, Ozzie Albies, Paul Goldschmidt, Juan Soto are all guys that belong in there, and heck, how everyone is setting up Baez as the most exciting, he doesn't hold a candle to Yasiel Puig in those categories.
Baez doesn't hold a candle to Puig? Please...
Tonight was another prime example of why Baez is one of the most exciting players in the game.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 13, 2018, 05:24:05 PM
From Jesse Rogers? Javy may as well have written it himself. Have you watched any exciting non Cub players this season? Angels games? Rockie games? Indians games? Just curious. You may enjoy watching Trout, Arenado, Ramirez among others.
Sorry. Since that one was too biased for your liking, about this one from USA Today on how Javy is exactly what baseball needs?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2018/07/12/javier-baez-flair-all-star-game/780599002/
Trout and Arenado are much better players than Javy. Hell, Trout is on his way to be the greatest of all time. But they aren't nearly as exciting as Javy.
Mike Trout is generally considered a pretty boring guy, which is a shame because a lot of people don't realize how great he actually is.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 14, 2018, 12:03:45 AM
Mookie is the most exciting player in baseball.
This is a good call. Mookie is damn exciting and a great player.
Jesus this is a hell of a conversation about who is exciting to watch and who isn't.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 14, 2018, 12:46:47 AM
Baez doesn't hold a candle to Puig? Please...
Tonight was another prime example of why Baez is one of the most exciting players in the game.
Maybe not quite the wrong wording, but when you aren't sure if the guy is gonna play like an All Star or not show up to the park or maybe even be escorted by a cartel, well, that's pretty exciting.
https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/bryce-harper-yasiel-puig-los-angeles-dodgers-most-exciting-player-baseball-mike-trout-051116
https://www.mlb.com/news/dodgers-yasiel-puig-shows-fun-side-in-game-1/c-257765932
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-mlb-exciting-players-20140715-story.html
And here is a result from about 10 seconds of google that make the same arguments for Puig that have been made for Baez.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 14, 2018, 01:10:04 AM
This is a good call. Mookie is damn exciting and a great player.
Yet, the previous 2 times I mentioned him in this conversation, it was just standard shade throwing.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 14, 2018, 12:36:47 AM
Baez is the best in baseball at two things, applying tags and sliding. Both are critical components of bang bang plays, often in decisive moments, and are exciting components of games. I think thats where much of it comes from. And the difference between Baez and Tim Anderson is that Baez is a much better player across the board. Same with Moncada. Its one thing to be the same type of player, its another to be the best 1-2 of that type of player.
Nobody has ever said Mike Trout is boring. But again, mentioning exciting vs best, part of the exciting is being in big moments where plays matter and Trout is again on a team thats 9 games out of the playoff race. And thats not his fault, but some of the insane hitting he does doesn't feel as exhilarating when its to bring his team to within 3 runs in a game they still lose.
First, especially the sliding part, but really both, on what is this based? One slide a couple weeks ago? Dee Gordon did that same slide to the Sox twice in a game. It isn't a magic trick. A bunch of guys can, and do execute that style of slide.
But even if that point is granted, I think a guy hitting HRs, 2Bs, swiping bags, playing defense are all more exciting. I think watching a great hitter or defender is more exciting that watching a great tagger.
But that isn't even my main issue. As I said earlier, Baez is certainly an exciting player. But to make the blanket statement that he is the most exciting player is ridiculous. Maybe for you he is, that doesn't mean he is for everyone. I'd prefer Trout. Others here clearly don't. I'd prefer Mookie, Lindor, Ramirez, Arenado, Machado (more when he was at 3B though, and honestly haven't watched much of him this year because the O's are worse to watch than the Sox), Altuve, Correa, Turner, Soto and a bunch of other guys, and it isn't just because I hate the Cubs. I like their games better. But to each their own. I know you all love you guy, and hats off to you for that.
And as for the second bolded part, I think you are confusing better player with more exciting, or some nonsense like that.
Ok, obviously I don't think Anderson or Moncada (I did state that in my post where I referenced them) are on the same level, but if the talent gap is an argument against Trout, why shouldn't it work against Baez in the same capacity?
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 14, 2018, 09:55:40 PM
First, especially the sliding part, but really both, on what is this based? One slide a couple weeks ago?
Hahaha if you think this is based on a single slide, it's shows you know nothing of Javy.
https://youtu.be/ICPD8QG6M1c
This video doesn't even have the last two months of incredible slides he's made.
EDIT: Here's a good tag video too while we're at it:
https://youtu.be/-Uiq2ORGqoc
Breaking News: Mike Matheny Fired
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 14, 2018, 10:16:33 PM
Breaking News: Mike Matheny Fired
Only surprised it didn't happen sooner.
Sadly this makes the Cardinals better.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 14, 2018, 09:55:40 PM
First, especially the sliding part, but really both, on what is this based? One slide a couple weeks ago? Dee Gordon did that same slide to the Sox twice in a game. It isn't a magic trick. A bunch of guys can, and do execute that style of slide.
But even if that point is granted, I think a guy hitting HRs, 2Bs, swiping bags, playing defense are all more exciting. I think watching a great hitter or defender is more exciting that watching a great tagger.
But that isn't even my main issue. As I said earlier, Baez is certainly an exciting player. But to make the blanket statement that he is the most exciting player is ridiculous. Maybe for you he is, that doesn't mean he is for everyone. I'd prefer Trout. Others here clearly don't. I'd prefer Mookie, Lindor, Ramirez, Arenado, Machado (more when he was at 3B though, and honestly haven't watched much of him this year because the O's are worse to watch than the Sox), Altuve, Correa, Turner, Soto and a bunch of other guys, and it isn't just because I hate the Cubs. I like their games better. But to each their own. I know you all love you guy, and hats off to you for that.
And as for the second bolded part, I think you are confusing better player with more exciting, or some nonsense like that.
Ok, obviously I don't think Anderson or Moncada (I did state that in my post where I referenced them) are on the same level, but if the talent gap is an argument against Trout, why shouldn't it work against Baez in the same capacity?
Hilarious.
Javier Báez is the 3rd player since the first All-Star Game in 1933 to have at least 19 HR, 71 RBI and 18 SB prior to the break.The other two are César Cedeño in 1974 and Dante Bichette in 1994.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 14, 2018, 09:55:40 PM
I think watching a great hitter or defender is more exciting that watching a great tagger.
You know Javy is considered an elite defender?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 15, 2018, 12:39:45 AM
You know Javy is considered an elite defender?
I give him some credit for a solid effort pretending he's not biased.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 15, 2018, 12:08:54 AM
Hilarious.
You ever figure out what double top secret information the Cubs had on Jake Arrieta?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 15, 2018, 12:39:45 AM
You know Javy is considered an elite defender?
By fangraphs he is negative in DRS at both short and 3B. Above at 2B. UZR negative at 2B and SS. .5 dWAR by BBR.
By the numbers he looks like a good defender at 2B, and about avg at SS and 3B.
Not exactly Betts, Arenado, Lindor...
Maybe this is another area where he is more exciting than good.
But really, I am not the biggest fan of defensive stats and I haven't watched him much, so maybe I --and the numbers --am wrong.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 15, 2018, 12:14:09 AM
Javier Báez is the 3rd player since the first All-Star Game in 1933 to have at least 19 HR, 71 RBI and 18 SB prior to the break.The other two are César Cedeño in 1974 and Dante Bichette in 1994.
A veritable who's who of baseball lore. :D
Quite impressive.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 15, 2018, 12:14:09 AM
Javier Báez is the 3rd player since the first All-Star Game in 1933 to have at least 19 HR, 71 RBI and 18 SB prior to the break.The other two are César Cedeño in 1974 and Dante Bichette in 1994.
These are the most hilarious kinds of "stats."
It's bad enough when they are semi-round numbers: So-and-so is the first player with 325 HR, 2,400 RBI and 250 SB since such-and-such.
But 19-71-18? Really?
And the effort to declare Baez the best slider and tagger of all-time ... that's great stuff. Reminds me of after the Cubbies got Maddux in 2004, fans weren't satisfied saying the Cubbies had the best pitching staff in the majors; they also claimed the starting five gave them the best
hitting pitching staff in the majors. One thing that came true is that they were the best choking pitching staff in the majors the last week of the season. Maddux, in particular, spit the bit.
Baez is a nice player, the Cubs are fortunate to have him and most teams wish they had him. The rest of it is silliness.
Anybody can play with stats and make a case for or against just about anybody.
Quote from: MU82 on July 15, 2018, 09:26:50 AM
These are the most hilarious kinds of "stats."
It's bad enough when they are semi-round numbers: So-and-so is the first player with 325 HR, 2,400 RBI and 250 SB since such-and-such.
But 19-71-18? Really?
And the effort to declare Baez the best slider and tagger of all-time ... that's great stuff. Reminds me of after the Cubbies got Maddux in 2004, fans weren't satisfied saying the Cubbies had the best pitching staff in the majors; they also claimed the starting five gave them the best hitting pitching staff in the majors. One thing that came true is that they were the best choking pitching staff in the majors the last week of the season. Maddux, in particular, spit the bit.
Baez is a nice player, the Cubs are fortunate to have him and most teams wish they had him. The rest of it is silliness.
Anybody can play with stats and make a case for or against just about anybody.
I'll save Cubs fans the time:
You're biased and don't understand baseball.
Nobody in the history of the world is as good at what they do as Javy Baez is at playing baseball.
Best tagger, best slider, and is at 19-71-18.
Case closed. Can't argue it.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 15, 2018, 12:14:09 AM
Javier Báez is the 3rd player since the first All-Star Game in 1933 to have at least 19 HR, 71 RBI and 18 SB prior to the break.The other two are César Cedeño in 1974 and Dante Bichette in 1994.
I don't think anyone would dispute that he can hold his own with Cesar Cedeno or Dante Bichette.
Quote from: MU82 on July 15, 2018, 09:26:50 AM
And the effort to declare Baez the best slider and tagger of all-time ... that's great stuff. Reminds me of after the Cubbies got Maddux in 2004, fans weren't satisfied saying the Cubbies had the best pitching staff in the majors; they also claimed the starting five gave them the best hitting pitching staff in the majors. One thing that came true is that they were the best choking pitching staff in the majors the last week of the season. Maddux, in particular, spit the bit.
Come on 82, nobody ever said anything about all time. Its a discussion about players in MLB in 2018, and the commentary about his sliding/tagging ability isn't just a silly idea created by Cubs homers on Scoop.
Countering opinions are fine, but continuing to make this seem like some silly delusion because LOL CUBS FANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN UNREALISTIC is trite. But yes, that stat is dumb. Baez is having a great year, no need for idiotic stats churned out from the ESPN content machine.
Oh good, was wondering when noted baseball arbiter Wades would pop back in to tell us how stupid we are.
Aguilar makes barehanded catches and hits walk off home runs on the 13th pitch of an at bat...and probably is the best player at something too!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 15, 2018, 10:23:14 AM
I don't think anyone would dispute that he can hold his own with Cesar Cedeno or Dante Bichette.
At this stage of their respective careers, Cesar Cedeno >>>> Javy Baez.
Cedeno led the major league in doubles twice before his 22nd birthday, made the all-star team four times in his first seven seasons and had five Gold Gloves and six 50-stolen base seasons by the time he was 26 years old.
He also had six seasons in which he was top 10 in NL WAR.
In short, Cedeno was an absolute stud until injuries (and probably Astroturf) wore him down in the latter half of his career.
Now, Dante Bichette on the other hand ...perhaps few players benefited more from the thin air in Denver, and perhaps some other things.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 15, 2018, 10:26:36 AM
Come on 82, nobody ever said anything about all time. Its a discussion about players in MLB in 2018, and the commentary about his sliding/tagging ability isn't just a silly idea created by Cubs homers on Scoop.
Countering opinions are fine, but continuing to make this seem like some silly delusion because LOL CUBS FANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN UNREALISTIC is trite. But yes, that stat is dumb. Baez is having a great year, no need for idiotic stats churned out from the ESPN content machine.
Oh good, was wondering when noted baseball arbiter Wades would pop back in to tell us how stupid we are.
Well if you had to sit and wonder when I'd jump in then that probably says even Cubs fans know they're being stupid. So at least the awareness is there, but it is still more fun to play the victim game I guess.
I was just enjoying the entertainment for a while. It was good.
I remove my previous Mookie statement.
The most exciting player in baseball is someone that you're turning into an out of town game to watch, right? Who's making you watch them? The answer to that question for me is probably a starter. Max, Severino, Kluber, Sale.
Who is in first place right now? ;)
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 15, 2018, 11:43:44 AM
Who is in first place right now? ;)
The last time you did this it went well. But glad you're excited that "your" team that was picked by every single person out there to win the Division is finally back in first place.
Chicos did have more of a Chicago sports fan attitude than an LA sports fan attitude, so this works well.
Quote from: MU82 on July 15, 2018, 09:26:50 AM
Baez is a nice player, the Cubs are fortunate to have him and most teams wish they had him. The rest of it is silliness.
Quit throwing shade man.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 15, 2018, 02:27:25 PM
Quit throwing shade man.
Give it a rest man. You made it into an argument that no Cubs fan was arguing. A nice article you eye rolled at, and then somehow construed every Cub fan into thinking Baez is better than Trout. I don't see a single Cubs fan saying anything other than Javy is super exciting and here is why. And you respond to everything with a "yea well". I don't think a single Baez supporter here would argue with 82's quoted assessment. But the need to downplay or side eye ANY positive Cubs related information is the definition of shade. Kind of like the dude at Miller Park a month or so ago who wanted to ramble all game to me about how Bryant was the most overrated player in baseball.
Apropos of nothing, I have a bunch of Gregg Jeffries Topps rated rookie cards I'm looking to offload if anyone is interested.
Oof
21 games in 20 days is brutal.
5 back in the loss column. Don't see the Cubs coughing that up.
Counsell overmanaging cost them today. Williams was fine. Just let him work.
A 5 game sweep doesn't come around often anymore. Ouch.
This is a lot like the way the Crew rolled OUT from the AS break last year. Look, the Cubs are simply better. No problem. But the Crew should be in the Wild Card game. Anything short of that after being 18 over .500 would be very disappointing.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 15, 2018, 02:51:22 PM
You made it into an argument that no Cubs fan was arguing. A nice article you eye rolled at, and then somehow construed every Cub fan into thinking Baez is better than Trout.
No. Not what I did at all. I was just making cases for other guys that are at least as "exciting".
But anyways...
I think MLB makes a huge mistake having the futures game this afternoon. It should be in primetime, or tomorrow night. Sox prospect Luis Basabe turned around a 102 MPH fastball from Hunter Greene for a HR. Greene, threw 19 fastballs all more than 100 MPH.
MLB should make this a bigger showcase. I think there would be some pretty widespread interest.
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 15, 2018, 04:44:51 PM
5 back in the loss column. Don't see the Cubs coughing that up.
Counsell overmanaging cost them today. Williams was fine. Just let him work.
That also means the Brewers have five off days that the Cubs don't have in the second half. You are seeing first hand what 21 games in 20 days does to a team.
I've thought all along the Cubs win the division, but I wouldn't count the Brewers out just yet.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 15, 2018, 10:26:36 AM
Come on 82, nobody ever said anything about all time. Its a discussion about players in MLB in 2018, and the commentary about his sliding/tagging ability isn't just a silly idea created by Cubs homers on Scoop.
Countering opinions are fine, but continuing to make this seem like some silly delusion because LOL CUBS FANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN UNREALISTIC is trite. But yes, that stat is dumb. Baez is having a great year, no need for idiotic stats churned out from the ESPN content machine.
It's all good, JDubs. We all have opinions, and that's what we're here for. I do tend to get a little overly snarky sometimes, so my bad.
My son is a huge Cubbie fan who watches a lot more baseball than I do these days, and he thinks Baez is the most exciting player in baseball and the MVP frontrunner. That's just an opinion, too, but I obviously know Baez can play.
Still, I do keep coming back to: Is there any objective way to measure "best tagger" or "best slider"?
Quote from: wadesworld on July 15, 2018, 12:31:47 PM
The last time you did this it went well. But glad you're excited that "your" team that was picked by every single person out there to win the Division is finally back in first place.
Chicos did have more of a Chicago sports fan attitude than an LA sports fan attitude, so this works well.
Yes, my team. That's how fans talk about their teams. If I could figure out how to show a picture of a Cubs Wrigley Field bat my kids bought me in 2014, one of only 5000 made, I would. They didn't buy me a Yankees bat, or Dodgers bat, or any team other than the team I have followed my entire life. How does one upload a photo from a smartphone to here?
Quote from: MU82 on July 15, 2018, 11:40:16 PM
It's all good, JDubs. We all have opinions, and that's what we're here for. I do tend to get a little overly snarky sometimes, so my bad.
My son is a huge Cubbie fan who watches a lot more baseball than I do these days, and he thinks Baez is the most exciting player in baseball and the MVP frontrunner. That's just an opinion, too, but I obviously know Baez can play.
Still, I do keep coming back to: Is there any objective way to measure "best tagger" or "best slider"?
All good man.
And I don't think there is a truly objective way. More of an eye test. I just know it was a narrative about him well before he became an all star caliber player. He has unbelievably quick hands and not many people snap tag as effectively.
Quote from: Jockey on July 14, 2018, 10:36:26 PM
Only surprised it didn't happen sooner.
Matheny needed to go. Whether he's a mediocre manager or taking the rap for the failure of the organization to understand what they had, he still didn't get the job done.
The Cardinals' fielding is deplorable. Hitting is poor and even the use of the pitching staff is amateurish. I hate to admit this but the team is not as good as the Cubs and even what the Cardinals had, at times, has been used in a way that shows a lack of understanding of the cadence of the game.
I rather think this team needs a top-to-bottom overhaul at the major league level. Get rid of Dexter Fowler (and bite the bullet on the contract) and build around Yadier Molina, Marcel Ozuma, Harrison Bader and maybe Tommy Pham. The starting pitching is pretty good but the bullpen -- yuck!
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 15, 2018, 11:48:04 PM
Yes, my team. That's how fans talk about their teams. If I could figure out how to show a picture of a Cubs Wrigley Field bat my kids bought me in 2014, one of only 5000 made, I would. They didn't buy me a Yankees bat, or Dodgers bat, or any team other than the team I have followed my entire life. How does one upload a photo from a smartphone to here?
Shoot. You got me. Chico's isn't this technology illiterate. Can't be Chico's! ::)
Quote from: wadesworld on July 16, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
Shoot. You got me. Chico's isn't this technology illiterate. Can't be Chico's! ::)
He's just a Dad, wades. A regular Warrior Dad.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 16, 2018, 06:03:47 AM
Matheny needed to go. Whether he's a mediocre manager or taking the rap for the failure of the organization to understand what they had, he still didn't get the job done.
The Cardinals' fielding is deplorable. Hitting is poor and even the use of the pitching staff is amateurish. I hate to admit this but the team is not as good as the Cubs and even what the Cardinals had, at times, has been used in a way that shows a lack of understanding of the cadence of the game.
I rather think this team needs a top-to-bottom overhaul at the major league level. Get rid of Dexter Fowler (and bite the bullet on the contract) and build around Yadier Molina, Marcel Ozuma, Harrison Bader and maybe Tommy Pham. The starting pitching is pretty good but the bullpen -- yuck!
Pham is 30 years old and Molina is 36 and a catcher in a non-DH league. If the Cards want to build around them the rest of the division will gladly encourage them.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 14, 2018, 12:03:45 AM
Mookie is the most exciting player in baseball.
This is my 50th season as a Red Sox fan, and Mookie Betts right now is the most fun player to watch I have ever seen wearing a Red Sox uniform. He does everything well. He missed 20 games this season with an injury (which has cost him a shot at a 40/40 season), but has scored 79 runs in 78 games and is hitting almost .360. He's not going to knock in 100 this year because he bats leadoff, and the Red Sox 8-9 hitters (whoever is catching and Jackie Bradley Jr) have had dismal seasons so far, so not much in the way of RBI opportunities. He runs down everything in right field, has a great arm, and steals bases. There is nothing he doesn't do on a baseball field. I don't watch much National League ball, but if Baez is anything like Mookie, he's got to be fun to watch.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 16, 2018, 07:44:14 AM
Pham is 30 years old and Molina is 36 and a catcher in a non-DH league. If the Cards want to build around them the rest of the division will gladly encourage them.
Was thinking the same thing.
Yadi might be a coach or manager in the not-all-that-distant future.
Quote from: MU82 on July 15, 2018, 09:26:50 AM
These are the most hilarious kinds of "stats."
It's bad enough when they are semi-round numbers: So-and-so is the first player with 325 HR, 2,400 RBI and 250 SB since such-and-such.
But 19-71-18? Really?
And the effort to declare Baez the best slider and tagger of all-time ... that's great stuff. Reminds me of after the Cubbies got Maddux in 2004, fans weren't satisfied saying the Cubbies had the best pitching staff in the majors; they also claimed the starting five gave them the best hitting pitching staff in the majors. One thing that came true is that they were the best choking pitching staff in the majors the last week of the season. Maddux, in particular, spit the bit.
Baez is a nice player, the Cubs are fortunate to have him and most teams wish they had him. The rest of it is silliness.
Anybody can play with stats and make a case for or against just about anybody.
There is a lot of baseball left to be played but as of today Baez is a top 5 NL MVP candidate.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 15, 2018, 10:16:23 AM
I'll save Cubs fans the time:
You're biased and don't understand baseball.
Nobody in the history of the world is as good at what they do as Javy Baez is at playing baseball.
Best tagger, best slider, and is at 19-71-18.
Case closed. Can't argue it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/4R71Engp5NgHK/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 16, 2018, 09:17:58 AM
There is a lot of baseball left to be played but as of today Baez is a top 5 NL MVP candidate.
I'll join that club. Baez is on pace for a 30/30 year while hitting .290+ and is grading out as a plus defender while playing multiple infield positions. He's also fun as hell to watch. Anyone who says he's not having one of the best seasons in baseball is just being contrarian. Trout, Mookie, and the criminally under-discussed Nolan Arenado aside, he's right there this season.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 16, 2018, 07:44:14 AM
Pham is 30 years old and Molina is 36 and a catcher in a non-DH league. If the Cards want to build around them the rest of the division will gladly encourage them.
Depends on the term of your rebuild. If you're doing a White Sox style burn the house down and rebuild, then you are absolutely right. But, if you're looking at a Cardinal rebuild, which better be done sooner rather than later, Molina and Pham have a place.
Biggest thing is getting back to the Cardinal Way. We need that badly.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 16, 2018, 09:40:20 AM
Depends on the term of your rebuild. If you're doing a White Sox style burn the house down and rebuild, then you are absolutely right. But, if you're looking at a Cardinal rebuild, which better be done sooner rather than later, Molina and Pham have a place.
Biggest thing is getting back to the Cardinal Way. We need that badly.
What is the "Cardinal Way"?
Ultimately you need better players and a culture overhaul.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 16, 2018, 09:40:20 AM
Depends on the term of your rebuild. If you're doing a White Sox style burn the house down and rebuild, then you are absolutely right. But, if you're looking at a Cardinal rebuild, which better be done sooner rather than later, Molina and Pham have a place.
Biggest thing is getting back to the Cardinal Way. We need that badly.
Yeah ever since you haven't been able to steal data from the Astros you've really fallen quickly.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 16, 2018, 09:36:23 AM
I'll join that club. Baez is on pace for a 30/30 year while hitting .290+ and is grading out as a plus defender while playing multiple infield positions. He's also fun as hell to watch. Anyone who says he's not having one of the best seasons in baseball is just being contrarian. Trout, Mookie, and the criminally under-discussed Nolan Arenado aside, he's right there this season.
Most of the great offensive seasons are in the AL this season. Who else is in the conversation in the NL? Freeman, Goldschmidt, Aguilar (assuming defense isn't held against him)....
I have trouble with Arenado considering Colorado isn't that good and he has a 1.140 OPS at home vs .820 on the road.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 16, 2018, 09:36:23 AM
I'll join that club. Baez is on pace for a 30/30 year while hitting .290+ and is grading out as a plus defender while playing multiple infield positions. He's also fun as hell to watch. Anyone who says he's not having one of the best seasons in baseball is just being contrarian. Trout, Mookie, and the criminally under-discussed Nolan Arenado aside, he's right there this season.
Speaking of criminally under-discussed, I give you Jose Ramirez.
.302/.401/.628. Second only to Trout in WAR. Tied for MLB lead in home runs. Fourth in RBI. Plus defender.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 16, 2018, 09:53:07 AM
Speaking of criminally under-discussed, I give you Jose Ramirez.
.302/.401/.628. Second only to Trout in WAR. Tied for MLB lead in home runs. Fourth in RBI. Plus defender.
Yeah, he has been insanely good. Him and Lindor are something else.
Quote from: MU82 on July 16, 2018, 09:12:13 AM
Was thinking the same thing.
Yadi might be a coach or manager in the not-all-that-distant future.
Bring back the old school player/manager.
Quote from: MU82 on July 16, 2018, 09:12:13 AM
Was thinking the same thing.
Yadi might be a coach or manager in the not-all-that-distant future.
What parts of a fielder's uniform can he have sticky substances on to have the ball stick to since fielders don't have a chest protector like a catcher does?
Quote from: wadesworld on July 16, 2018, 11:44:53 AM
What parts of a fielder's uniform can he have sticky substances on to have the ball stick to since fielders don't have a chest protector like a catcher does?
jock?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 16, 2018, 09:52:08 AM
I have trouble with Arenado considering Colorado isn't that good and he has a 1.140 OPS at home vs .820 on the road.
You've stated this position before, and many others clearly share it, I am curious where you cut it off? Should Machado be considered (if he stays in the AL)? Camden has actually been a similar hitters park to Coors. There isn't much difference between Coors and Arizona, should Goldy not get consideration? Brandon Crawford is having a great year, does he get bonus points for playing in SF?
Arenado has an OPS+ (adjusted for park factor) of 145. Still pretty elite. He also plays many of his away games in SF, LA, and San Diego. All noted pitchers parks. So it would only make sense that his away OPS would suffer. Now clearly Coors gives hitters an edge, and it is certainly a valid argument, but I don't think it should get him dismissed out of hand. Is there any season a Rockie could have that would merit him and MVP? Arenado has had some great seasons and never gotten closer than 4th. Todd Helton never got closer than 5th, Larry Walker won one with a season with an OPS over 1100, is that what it will take? Though Helton had several seasons over 1000 and a couple over 1100.
I know it is real and it makes a difference, and it should with MVP voting, I guess I am just curious to what degree. Honestly I don't know the answer.
As for the other part, Colorado is only 2 games out of a WC spot right now as well, so saying they aren't good is a bit of an exaggeration. It isn't like he is like Eugenio Suarez, who may personally merit some consideration, but his team is far too terrible.
By the way, it appears as if a Machado deal is getting pretty close.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 16, 2018, 03:54:00 PM
You've stated this position before, and many others clearly share it, I am curious where you cut it off? Should Machado be considered (if he stays in the AL)? Camden has actually been a similar hitters park to Coors. There isn't much difference between Coors and Arizona, should Goldy not get consideration? Brandon Crawford is having a great year, does he get bonus points for playing in SF?
Arenado has an OPS+ (adjusted for park factor) of 145. Still pretty elite. He also plays many of his away games in SF, LA, and San Diego. All noted pitchers parks. So it would only make sense that his away OPS would suffer. Now clearly Coors gives hitters an edge, and it is certainly a valid argument, but I don't think it should get him dismissed out of hand. Is there any season a Rockie could have that would merit him and MVP? Arenado has had some great seasons and never gotten closer than 4th. Todd Helton never got closer than 5th, Larry Walker won one with a season with an OPS over 1100, is that what it will take? Though Helton had several seasons over 1000 and a couple over 1100.
I know it is real and it makes a difference, and it should with MVP voting, I guess I am just curious to what degree. Honestly I don't know the answer.
As for the other part, Colorado is only 2 games out of a WC spot right now as well, so saying they aren't good is a bit of an exaggeration. It isn't like he is like Eugenio Suarez, who may personally merit some consideration, but his team is far too terrible.
By the way, it appears as if a Machado deal is getting pretty close.
All good points and I should have looked at OPS+/wRC+ in regards to Arenado. I also didn't realize that Colorado had won 5 in a row. So yes, Arenado should firmly be in the conversation.
phew! going into today i thought we might have had to hear about the greatest power hitter to ever play the game, javy baez.
Bill Nye the Science Guy is tearing it...umm...up.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 16, 2018, 04:27:23 PM
All good points and I should have looked at OPS+/wRC+ in regards to Arenado. I also didn't realize that Colorado had won 5 in a row. So yes, Arenado should firmly be in the conversation.
Also, Arenado is the best defensive 3rd baseman in the game as long as Machado is playing SS. Is it easier to catch and throw the ball in colorado?
Quote from: #bansultan on July 15, 2018, 11:45:03 AM
Not the Angels.
The other correct answers would be Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, White Sox, Rangers, Mariners and 20+ other teams.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 16, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
Shoot. You got me. Chico's isn't this technology illiterate. Can't be Chico's! ::)
My daughter, also not named chico's, helped me out. She asked a great question, how will they know this isn't a bat pulled off the internet? Therefore I laid my Wrigley bat next to a few Marquette tees.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2h2gh83.jpg)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 16, 2018, 10:33:16 PM
Also, Arenado is the best defensive 3rd baseman in the game as long as Machado is playing SS. Is it easier to catch and throw the ball in colorado?
Really?
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 16, 2018, 11:59:04 PM
My daughter, also not named chico's, helped me out. She asked a great question, how will they know this isn't a bat pulled off the internet? Therefore I laid my Wrigley bat next to a few Marquette tees.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2h2gh83.jpg)
Remember when not chicos did the same thing with his ballot for none of the above.
As far as last night, this Derby format is lame. The head-to-head bracket and timer are dumb. Weird field with only one AL player. Bring back the three rounds with highest overall totals advancing and 10 outs. Baseball has no clock.
I suppose Harper's headband was cool, but I doubt every kid on the playground is going to emulate it like the 90's kids flipped the cap around to emulate the Kid.
(http://www.thebaseballjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/griffey-hr-derby.jpg)
Quote from: chapman on July 17, 2018, 07:45:03 AM
As far as last night, this Derby format is lame. The head-to-head bracket and timer are dumb. Weird field with only one AL player. Bring back the three rounds with highest overall totals advancing and 10 outs. Baseball has no clock.
I suppose Harper's headband was cool, but I doubt every kid on the playground is going to emulate it like the 90's kids flipped the cap around to emulate the Kid.
(http://www.thebaseballjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/griffey-hr-derby.jpg)
That's cause kids don't watch baseball.
Quote from: chapman on July 17, 2018, 07:45:03 AM
As far as last night, this Derby format is lame. The head-to-head bracket and timer are dumb. Weird field with only one AL player. Bring back the three rounds with highest overall totals advancing and 10 outs. Baseball has no clock.
I suppose Harper's headband was cool, but I doubt every kid on the playground is going to emulate it like the 90's kids flipped the cap around to emulate the Kid.
(http://www.thebaseballjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/griffey-hr-derby.jpg)
I love baseball, but I find the HR derby beyond boring and haven't watched since 1999, I think. It is batting practice where guys try to hit HRs. Why am I watching that? Does it still take 3 hours or so? I know most of the big HR guys do not participate any more.
The last round was cool.
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 16, 2018, 11:59:04 PM
My daughter, also not named chico's, helped me out. She asked a great question, how will they know this isn't a bat pulled off the internet? Therefore I laid my Wrigley bat next to a few Marquette tees.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2h2gh83.jpg)
Thanks. I'm a believer. Chicago sports fan that isn't chicos that will fight until his death that LeBron James is, without a question, better than Michael Jordan.
Checks out.
My kids were very excited about the HR Derby so we watched it together. It was the first time I've watched it in 10+ years. I have to say that it was much more enjoyable that I was anticipating (in part due to my kids' enthusiasm). I mean, it's still too long but the clock actually keeps things moving as opposed to when some hitters would take pitch after pitch after pitch before getting to 10 swings. It also helped that we started it late and through the magic of DVR got to fast-forward through some of the filler.
Oh, and Bryce Harper and his dad "bending the rules" in a hitting exhibition has to be the Bryce Harper-ish thing imaginable!
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 17, 2018, 08:18:11 AM
My kids were very excited about the HR Derby so we watched it together. It was the first time I've watched it in 10+ years. I have to say that it was much more enjoyable that I was anticipating (in part due to my kids' enthusiasm). I mean, it's still too long but the clock actually keeps things moving as opposed to when some hitters would take pitch after pitch after pitch before getting to 10 swings. It also helped that we started it late and through the magic of DVR got to fast-forward through some of the filler.
Oh, and Bryce Harper and his dad "bending the rules" in a hitting exhibition has to be the Bryce Harper-ish thing imaginable!
Yes, there was a bit of funny business and home cooking going on in the last round.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 17, 2018, 08:36:27 AM
Yes, there was a bit of funny business and home cooking going on in the last round.
For the record (and before wades, buckchucker, etc go off), I'm fine with it. Harper was the hometown player so there's no harm in affording him some leeway. Hitting 9 HRs in 47 seconds is impressive no matter how you get it done. It made for good entertainment, which is what the HR Derby should be about.
Quote from: chapman on July 17, 2018, 07:45:03 AM
As far as last night, this Derby format is lame. The head-to-head bracket and timer are dumb. Weird field with only one AL player. Bring back the three rounds with highest overall totals advancing and 10 outs. Baseball has no clock.
Disagree. The new format creates way more excitement and speeds up an event which can drag.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 17, 2018, 08:59:20 AM
For the record (and before wades, buckchucker, etc go off), I'm fine with it. Harper was the hometown player so there's no harm in affording him some leeway. Hitting 9 HRs in 47 seconds is impressive no matter how you get it done. It made for good entertainment, which is what the HR Derby should be about.
I think they should get rid of the rule about not throwing until the previous ball drops. It penalizes guys who hit long majestic homeruns, plus it was awesome seeing Harper go rapid fire when need be.
The Japanese had some ways to liven up their HR derby.
https://deadspin.com/watch-this-weird-old-japanese-home-run-derby-featuring-1827638741
The O's are apparently working through medicals on a Machado deal. That is no small thing with them though.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 17, 2018, 11:05:51 AM
The O's are apparently working through medicals on a Machado deal. That is no small thing with them though.
Sounds like the Dodgers. I'm guessing warriordad is piiiiisssssed.
Wait, no, nevermind. He's a Cubs fan.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 09:27:34 AM
Disagree. The new format creates way more excitement and speeds up an event which can drag.
Yeah, I'm with TT on this. The new format is the best thing to happen to the derby, even better than Berman retiring.
Quote from: drewm88 on July 17, 2018, 11:49:02 AM
Yeah, I'm with TT on this. The new format is the best thing to happen to the derby, even better than Berman retiring.
Had to watch it on mute when Berman was on.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 17, 2018, 11:28:43 AM
Sounds like the Dodgers. I'm guessing warriordad is piiiiisssssed.
Wait, no, nevermind. He's a Cubs fan.
Manny to the Dodgers will impact the Cubs as much as (or more than) it will impact any other team.
Interesting breakdown of WAR by position by team. A Cubs fan made it so that's why their logo is highlighted.
Shout out to Tommy LaStella.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiRZNDAW0AA2X_x.jpg:large)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 01:40:37 PM
Interesting breakdown of WAR by position by team. A Cubs fan made it so that's why their logo is highlighted.
Shout out to Tommy LaStella.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiRZNDAW0AA2X_x.jpg:large)
That is a cool graphic. Do they have it with all the logos highlighted? I was trying to pick out the other teams and couldn't make it out.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 17, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
Manny to the Dodgers will impact the Cubs as much as (or more than) it will impact any other team.
I still think I'd rather him go to LA than Milwaukee.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 01:40:37 PM
Interesting breakdown of WAR by position by team. A Cubs fan made it so that's why their logo is highlighted.
Shout out to Tommy LaStella.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiRZNDAW0AA2X_x.jpg:large)
What's amazing is some of the lowest values are Rizzo's and Bryant's positions due to injury and under-performance. You could say the same about the rotation.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 17, 2018, 02:28:05 PM
I still think I'd rather him go to LA than Milwaukee.
Now this is something both Cubs and Brewers fans can agree on :)
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 17, 2018, 02:30:22 PM
Now this is something both Cubs and Brewers fans can agree on :)
So Brewers fans don't want Machado or they don't want to pay the potential price it might take to acquire him?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 17, 2018, 02:17:36 PM
That is a cool graphic. Do they have it with all the logos highlighted? I was trying to pick out the other teams and couldn't make it out.
Unfortunately this is the only one.
https://twitter.com/ScottLindholm/status/1019037510729691137
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 09:32:33 AM
I think they should get rid of the rule about not throwing until the previous ball drops. It penalizes guys who hit long majestic homeruns, plus it was awesome seeing Harper go rapid fire when need be.
I didn't watch it but my son told me that Agui had a bomb that carried for an estimated 8 full seconds. Crazy. It must have almost achieved orbit.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 17, 2018, 02:48:16 PM
So Brewers fans don't want Machado or they don't want to pay the potential price it might take to acquire him?
I'll say the latter. The Crew isn't on the cusp of winning the WS or probably even a pennant. Every price I was hearing for a 60+ game rental was too much in my eyes. It's too early in the process for Stearns to really know who his 'in house' potential stars are yet. And for the most part, the small market Crew must grow its own talent.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 17, 2018, 02:48:16 PM
So Brewers fans don't want Machado or they don't want to pay the potential price it might take to acquire him?
I can only speak for myself, but while Machado is a stud, I don't want the Brewers to pay the iron price for a couple of months of him. The whole point of the Cain and Yelich signings were to keep the competitive window open for about 3 years (assuming some decline from Cain), and I think the trade capital is better spent on opportunities for controllable talent - even if the talent isn't quite up to Machado's level.
Even if Machado killed it for the Crew over the final 64 games, its tough to see them being Vegas favorites to win more than a game or maaaybe two per series vs the Phillies, Nats, Cubs, Dodgers, or Diamondbacks. To me, if they're going to go for broke with a rental, its got to be the kind of rental (probably a SP) that significantly shifts your win probability in a short series. This is why I think all the CC comps are inapplicable to a Machado deal. I just don't think Machado moves the needle in that way, and the opportunity cost is astronomical.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 17, 2018, 04:14:50 PM
I can only speak for myself, but while Machado is a stud, I don't want the Brewers to pay the iron price for a couple of months of him. The whole point of the Cain and Yelich signings were to keep the competitive window open for about 3 years (assuming some decline from Cain), and I think the trade capital is better spent on opportunities for controllable talent - even if the talent isn't quite up to Machado's level.
Even if Machado killed it for the Crew over the final 64 games, its tough to see them being Vegas favorites to win more than a game or maaaybe two per series vs the Phillies, Nats, Cubs, Dodgers, or Diamondbacks. To me, if they're going to go for broke with a rental, its got to be the kind of rental (probably a SP) that significantly shifts your win probability in a short series. This is why I think all the CC comps are inapplicable to a Machado deal. I just don't think Machado moves the needle in that way, and the opportunity cost is astronomical.
Makes sense. I also don't see that quality of starter being available in the next couple of weeks but maybe that changes this offseason.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 17, 2018, 04:14:50 PM
I can only speak for myself, but while Machado is a stud, I don't want the Brewers to pay the iron price for a couple of months of him. The whole point of the Cain and Yelich signings were to keep the competitive window open for about 3 years (assuming some decline from Cain), and I think the trade capital is better spent on opportunities for controllable talent - even if the talent isn't quite up to Machado's level.
Even if Machado killed it for the Crew over the final 64 games, its tough to see them being Vegas favorites to win more than a game or maaaybe two per series vs the Phillies, Nats, Cubs, Dodgers, or Diamondbacks. To me, if they're going to go for broke with a rental, its got to be the kind of rental (probably a SP) that significantly shifts your win probability in a short series. This is why I think all the CC comps are inapplicable to a Machado deal. I just don't think Machado moves the needle in that way, and the opportunity cost is astronomical.
Exactly how I see it too. Plus back in the day, the Crew hadn't been to the playoffs in decades. That's not the case now. Build for the long haul.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 17, 2018, 02:48:16 PM
So Brewers fans don't want Machado or they don't want to pay the potential price it might take to acquire him?
My survey size is exactly one Brewer fan. The one Brewer fan who has brought up baseball to me (Cubs fan) this week at work. I told him I read the Orioles had a deal in place but no body knew who it was. His response was "god, I hope it isn't the Brewers". His reasoning was strictly money.
So is it a given that Max Scherzer's elbow will simply explode one day as he completes a pitch?
Quote from: MUEng92 on July 17, 2018, 04:53:26 PM
My survey size is exactly one Brewer fan. The one Brewer fan who has brought up baseball to me (Cubs fan) this week at work. I told him I read the Orioles had a deal in place but no body knew who it was. His response was "god, I hope it isn't the Brewers". His reasoning was strictly money.
I dont want Machado as I dont think it is worth the prospects for 64 games.
Build for next 3-5 years.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 17, 2018, 08:20:13 PM
I dont want Machado as I dont think it is worth the prospects for 64 games.
Build for next 3-5 years.
Yeah, try to make a go when you are already 2.5 games out, and only 1 game up in the wild card. Makes no sense to try to win, I mean, if they have to settle for a WC, there is no way a WC team could make a run in the playoffs.
I honestly don't get why a guy rated as a 50-75 ish level prospect is an untouchable for a guy that could make a team significantly better. Have you not gotten over trading Matt LaPorta?
Even over the next 3-5 years, how do the Brewers get past the Cubs talent-wise with out making a bold and risky move?
No matter anyways, seems like the Dodgers is a done deal.
First pitch of Willson Contreras' Major League Career: Home Run
First pitch Willson Contreras sees in All Star Game: Home Run
Quote from: MUEng92 on July 17, 2018, 07:33:27 PM
So is it a given that Max Scherzer's elbow will simply explode one day as he completes a pitch?
Well, he has thrown over 2000 innings of basically injury free ball so far, so I guess he is due?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 17, 2018, 08:20:13 PM
I dont want Machado as I dont think it is worth the prospects for 64 games.
Build for next 3-5 years.
I wonder how many Astros fans felt that way about Verlander last year.
Quote from: MU82 on July 17, 2018, 09:29:40 PM
I wonder how many Astros fans felt that way about Verlander last year.
Cubs have basically traded away 2 top 10 prospects the last 2 seasons in Torres and Jimenez. Pretty safe to say they don't accomplish what they have without those moves.
By the way, I love the guys being mic'd up and having the in inning interviews.
And Rosenthal saying Manny to the Dodgers is a done deal.
Josh Hader might be in trouble and I'm not talking about the All Star Game.
https://twitter.com/jhader17/status/106058241137577984?s=21
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 10:15:39 PM
Josh Hader might be in trouble and I'm not talking about the All Star Game.
https://twitter.com/jhader17/status/106058241137577984?s=21
i'm certain no cubs player said something stupid when they were 16 years old.
nice find.
What do Cubs fans have to do with this? Titan is pointing out a story that seems to be blowing up on Twitter?
Quote from: MUEng92 on July 17, 2018, 10:26:29 PM
What do Cubs fans have to do with this? Titan is pointing out a story that seems to be blowing up on Twitter?
what team is titan a fan of? you think titan is championing a tweet like that if it's javy baez? lol!
cool. people scrolled through 7 years of an athlete's twitter account and found one stupid thing they said when they were a child. shocking.
it says more about the 30-something year old who runs around sharing it like they just uncovered russia rigging the us presidential election than it does about the 24 year old who tweeted something stupid as hell 7 years before that.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 17, 2018, 10:29:52 PM
what team is titan a fan of? you think titan is championing a tweet like that if it's javy baez? lol!
cool. people scrolled through 7 years of an athlete's twitter account and found one stupid thing they said when they were a child. shocking.
it says more about the 30-something year old who runs around sharing it like they just uncovered russia rigging the us presidential election than it does about the 24 year old who tweeted something stupid as hell 7 years before that.
Sounds like you have a bias.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 10:31:22 PM
Sounds like you have a bias.
yawn. already discussed the username. more than once. in this very same thread. don't feel the need to explain it again, but here's a hint: 30 for 30.
congrats on finding a 7 year old tweet from a then teenager. i'm sure you feel like a real man.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 17, 2018, 10:22:38 PM
i'm certain no cubs player said something stupid when they were 16 years old.
nice find.
Wow. If that's your reaction you're a complete idiot.
For what it's worth, I found it because Josh Hader is the number 5 trend on Twitter in the US right now.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 17, 2018, 10:33:06 PM
yawn. already discussed the username. more than once. in this very same thread. don't feel the need to explain it again, but here's a hint: 30 for 30.
congrats on finding a 7 year old tweet from a then teenager. i'm sure you feel like a real man.
He was 18 years old. And tweeting racist and homophobic garbage is a bit different than just saying something "stupid".
Segura and Gennett hitting homers in the All Star game. That's gotta hurt a little with the Brewers currently having no middle infield.
So it appears that was just the tip of the iceberg:
https://twitter.com/travushertl/status/1019421462468296705?s=21
I'm quite aware of who Titan roots for. It's completely irrelevant to this issue.
Anyway...is it seriously possible that no one has noticed these tweets until tonight? It shocking these repulsive tweets have been hanging out in cyberspace for seven years and not one saw the "limelight" of day.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 17, 2018, 09:37:51 PM
Cubs have basically traded away 2 top 10 prospects the last 2 seasons in Torres and Jimenez. Pretty safe to say they don't accomplish what they have without those moves.
By the way, I love the guys being mic'd up and having the in inning interviews.
And Rosenthal saying Manny to the Dodgers is a done deal.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 17, 2018, 10:38:11 PM
Segura and Gennett hitting homers in the All Star game. That's gotta hurt a little with the Brewers currently having no middle infield.
so which is it? the brewers should trade top prospects (segura) for difference makers when in contention (greinke) or they should be hurt when those prospects are performing down the road?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 17, 2018, 10:33:52 PM
Wow. If that's your reaction you're a complete idiot.
thanks but im not going to get all riled up over a teenager tweeting music lyrics and movie quotes and calling him a racist for it 7 years after that.
for someone who would be "very disappointed" if his favorite athletes used peds and probably still believes sammy sosa when he non-deny denies steroid use and thinks he accidentally grabbed the wrong bat once, i actually would buy that you never quoted any inappropriate movie lines as a teenager so i guess you are not a "complete idiot."
I'm not sure who found them or why they picked tonight to retweet them but they are trending on twitter.
Doesn't Marquette have a company that monitors all of its athletes social media accounts? I'm surprised the Brewers don't have something similar.
Hader has locked his account.
Yikes, none of that is good. Kid should man up and apologize. I give him some leeway because of his age at the time but thats not acceptable for anyone of any age.
How have sports leagues not figured out that they need to go through their players old social media posts the second they sign and delete any problematic ones?
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 17, 2018, 10:44:19 PM
so which is it? the brewers should trade top prospects (segura) for difference makers when in contention (greinke) or they should be hurt when those prospects are performing down the road?
I think you are a little confused. They got Segura
for Greinke. They traded him for away for Aaron Hill and Chase Anderson (so in that way it wasn't a total waste). But in very few cases is Aaron Hill a difference maker, in even fewer is he comparable to Manny Machado.
And I would just think, that if it were me, and my team had a complete void in the middle infield, and my organization had 2 guys that play those positions in the All Star game, I would regret it. Like White Sox fans being happy about the performances of Basabe and Cease in the Futures Game, but just gritting their teeth through Fernando Tatis Jr.
@JeffPassan
Some members of Josh Hader's family, wearing his All-Star replica jersey, have taken them off and been given generic jerseys without his name on the back.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 17, 2018, 10:44:19 PM
so which is it? the brewers should trade top prospects (segura) for difference makers when in contention (greinke) or they should be hurt when those prospects are performing down the road?
thanks but im not going to get all riled up over a teenager tweeting music lyrics and movie quotes and calling him a racist for it 7 years after that.
for someone who would be "very disappointed" if his favorite athletes used peds and probably still believes sammy sosa when he non-deny denies steroid use and thinks he accidentally grabbed the wrong bat once, i actually would buy that you never quoted any inappropriate movie lines as a teenager so i guess you are not a "complete idiot."
Of course Sosa used PEDs - really strong effort, though.
Really - you're going the "movie lines" route? Which movies were "I hate gay people" and "white power" from? These seems a little different than some isolated tweets in poor taste but maybe it's just me.
@JeffPassan
Josh Hader: "I was young, immature and stupid."
@BNightengale
Brewers reliever Josh Hader said his racist and homophobic tweets were a sign of immaturity when he was 17 and plans to apologize to his teammates, saying they don't reflect on him as a person now. 'No excuses. I was dumb and stupid.
I'll give him credit. He's owning it.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 17, 2018, 10:59:02 PM
Of course Sosa used PEDs - really strong effort, though.
How about Addison Russell?
Honestly, I don't even know what came from that case, but it clearly wasn't that serious since he was never suspended or arrested. But I'd be shocked if you didn't defend or at least rationalize what he did when that story broke (as I've done with Braun). Pot. Kettle. We're all guilty of it.
Athletes do stupid stuff in their personal lives. Especially young ones. Does that mean they should be totally forgiven? Probably not. But fans could do each other the dignity of not associating each other's actions with those of players on their teams.
For what it's worth, I saw a tweet earlier in the night that called Josh Hader the nicest guy on the All Star team. People change.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 17, 2018, 10:57:44 PM
I think you are a little confused. They got Segura for Greinke. They traded him for away for Aaron Hill and Chase Anderson (so in that way it wasn't a total waste). But in very few cases is Aaron Hill a difference maker, in even fewer is he comparable to Manny Machado.
And I would just think, that if it were me, and my team had a complete void in the middle infield, and my organization had 2 guys that play those positions in the All Star game, I would regret it. Like White Sox fans being happy about the performances of Basabe and Cease in the Futures Game, but just gritting their teeth through Fernando Tatis Jr.
In addition to Anderson and Hill, Isan Diaz was part of the Segura trade. Diaz was eventually traded in the Christian Yelich deal. Plus, I feel Segura needed the change of scenery to thrive. Remember, Segura was a Brewer when his 9 month old son died. That kind of emotional trauma is very difficult to deal with and going to a new team in a new city may have helped Segura become the player he is today. There is no guarantee Segura is the same level of player had he remained a Brewer.
Gennett, on the other hand, is a bit suspicious. The guy hit 35 HR in 456 games as a Brewer and has hit 43 HR in just 233 games with the Reds. His Brewers slash line was .279/.318/.420 and with the Reds he's slashing .308/.356/.527. Makes ya wonder.
I have no problem admitting athletes on teams I cheer for can be bad people.
Sosa used PEDs and corked his bat.
Russell cheated on his wife.
Mark Grace is an alcoholic.
Michael Jordan has a gambling problem.
Aroldis Chapman likely choked his wife/gf.
Bobby Hull beat his wife.
Walter Payton cheated on his wife.
Patrick Sharp cheated on his wife.
Patrick Kane... God knows what he's done.
Milton Bradley I don't even know where to start.
Not sure why Sosa using PEDs excuses Hader's comments.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 17, 2018, 11:23:39 PM
How about Addison Russell?
Honestly, I don't even know what came from that case, but it clearly wasn't that serious since he was never suspended or arrested. But I'd be shocked if you didn't defend or at least rationalize what he did when that story broke (as I've done with Braun). Pot. Kettle. We're all guilty of it.
Athletes do stupid stuff in their personal lives. Especially young ones. Does that mean they should be totally forgiven? Probably not. But fans could do each other the dignity of not associating each other's actions with those of players on their teams.
For what it's worth, I saw a tweet earlier in the night that called Josh Hader the nicest guy on the All Star team. People change.
What specifically about Russell?
Who associated a fan's actions with Haders? Not sure where you're getting that from.
And let's stop with the age excuse. 18 is more than old enough to know better.
@BillShaikin
MLB chief legal officer Dan Halem says Josh Hader will talk tonight. League will consider statement tomorrow.
Looks like Hader's wife also has some similar views in her old tweets.
I know plenty of 17 year olds. Most don't tweet racist stuff. The youth excuse is dumb.
Really Brewer fans should expect more than that.
This season doesn't seem like it's going to end well.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 18, 2018, 12:07:01 AM
Looks like Hader's wife also has some similar views in her old tweets.
relevant.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 05:27:48 AM
I know plenty of 17 year olds. Most don't tweet racist stuff. The youth excuse is dumb.
Really Brewer fans should expect more than that.
This season doesn't seem like it's going to end well.
you follow 17 year olds on twitter? and/or scroll back 7+ years to see what 24 year olds were tweeting when they were 17?
teenagers do stupid stuff. heck adults do stupid stuff. nobodys saying its acceptable. its not. but it also has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of person he is 7 year later.
if this was 7 months ago? uh oh. 7 freaking years? whoever scrolled back 7 years to find anything they could that would make professional athletes look bad needs to find a new hobby.
i don't think this affects the rest of the brewers season one bit.
One of the tweets is from 2016. How old was he then?
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 18, 2018, 06:25:46 AM
relevant.
you follow 17 year olds on twitter? and/or scroll back 7+ years to see what 24 year olds were tweeting when they were 17?
teenagers do stupid stuff. heck adults do stupid stuff. nobodys saying its acceptable. its not. but it also has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of person he is 7 year later.
if this was 7 months ago? uh oh. 7 freaking years? whoever scrolled back 7 years to find anything they could that would make professional athletes look bad needs to find a new hobby.
i don't think this affects the rest of the brewers season one bit.
Many teenagers do stupid stuff. Many don't post multiple racist and homophobic tweets.
And you think that what someone is like at 17 has no bearing what they are now like at 24? I highly dispute that.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 06:45:00 AM
Many teenagers do stupid stuff. Many don't post multiple racist and homophobic tweets.
And you think that what someone is like at 17 has no bearing what they are now like at 24? I highly dispute that.
so you do follow 17 year olds on twitter then. weird.
fair enough. i find people change quite a bit from their teen years to their mid twenties. but i've never followed a teenager on twitter so you'd have the better gage on that.
Why can't you accept Hader just might be a bad guy? There's lot of them in sports. Not just in Chicago and Milwaukee.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 18, 2018, 06:39:16 AM
One of the tweets is from 2016. How old was he then?
The one that was photoshopped?
Quote from: The Deane Team on July 18, 2018, 07:17:59 AM
The one that was photoshopped?
Was it? Unsure since he deleted all of his tweets.
People say stupid things all the time, especially when they're 17. Putting it in print for the world to see, however, is not too bright, even at 17.
I tend not to worry about stuff like that, as I mostly care about what the guys on the team I root for do while in uniform. Their personal life does not interest me much at all.
As for last night, I hadn't seen Hader pitch before and was looking forward to seeing him. Too bad he didn't have his best stuff, though he could've escaped unscathed had Votto handled that pop-up.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 18, 2018, 07:08:45 AM
so you do follow 17 year olds on twitter then. weird.
I didn't say that. Don't be dishonest and deflect cause your point sucks.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 18, 2018, 07:15:32 AM
Why can't you accept Hader just might be a bad guy? There's lot of them in sports. Not just in Chicago and Milwaukee.
he might be the worst human in the world. im just not ready to say that a 24 year old who tweeted inappropriate things 7 years ago is a terrible person. if everyone who has said something racist when they were a teenager is a racist then we have a very select few people who are not racists in this world, and im honored to share a forum with such a high percentage of those people. i wouldnt consider myself a racist or bad person, but im also not too big to admit i said some racist and inappropriate things when i was a teenager. thankfully twitter and snapchat werent around to document everything when i was 17 and couldnt be dug up 7 year later. apparently very few here did and are better people than me.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 18, 2018, 06:39:16 AM
One of the tweets is from 2016. How old was he then?
mustve missed that one. link?
Quote from: The Deane Team on July 18, 2018, 07:17:59 AM
The one that was photoshopped?
lol.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 07:41:07 AM
I didn't say that. Don't be dishonest and deflect cause your point sucks.
so you dont follow 17 year olds on twitter? but you know what 17 year olds arent tweeting without following them on twitter.
adds up.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 18, 2018, 07:15:32 AM
Why can't you accept Hader just might be a bad guy? There's lot of them in sports. Not just in Chicago and Milwaukee.
Exactly. And the key word is "might." Has he grown and matured since he was 17? Who knows. Maybe he's just more wise about covering that stuff up.
But I tend to think that the values one has at 17 are largely the ones you have in place at 24.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 18, 2018, 07:42:34 AM
so you dont follow 17 year olds on twitter? but you know what 17 year olds arent tweeting without following them on twitter.
Huh? Is your point that bad and/or your reading comprehension that poor? Go back and read what I wrote. Quote it in your next response.
That teams aren't scrubbing for this now is surprising. Do you really want to keep playing the whole "young and stupid" and downplaying the relevance of ancient digital footprints when all it takes is an intern to pull and review history?
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 07:44:24 AM
Huh? Is your point that bad and/or your reading comprehension that poor? Go back and read what I wrote. Quote it in your next response.
The answer to both of your questions is yes.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 18, 2018, 07:42:34 AM
so you dont follow 17 year olds on twitter? but you know what 17 year olds arent tweeting without following them on twitter.
adds up.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 05:27:48 AM
I know plenty of 17 year olds. Most don't tweet racist stuff. The youth excuse is dumb.
Really Brewer fans should expect more than that.
This season doesn't seem like it's going to end well.
quoted for you bud. wheres my reading comprehension bad? "I know plenty of 17 year olds. Most don't tweet dumb racist stuff."
so you either follow the 17 year olds on twitter or you don't know what theyre tweeting, as stated all along.
you try to play it off like youre smarter than anyone who would question you and go all tough guy and ask for a quote. oops?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 18, 2018, 07:58:18 AM
The answer to both of your questions is yes.
the answer to "Huh?" is "Yes." now thats a new one.
Is it really that big of a deal following a 17-year-old on Twitter?
I followed Markus Howard on Twitter his freshman year at Marquette. I'm guessing several people here do. You may have heard he was 17 that year.
I don't recall Markus ever tweeting anything like that.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 18, 2018, 07:42:34 AM
so you dont follow 17 year olds on twitter? but you know what 17 year olds arent tweeting without following them on twitter.
adds up.
You are picking a couple very peculiar hills to die on here. ?-(
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 18, 2018, 07:31:54 AM
People say stupid things all the time, especially when they're 17. Putting it in print for the world to see, however, is not too bright, even at 17.
I tend not to worry about stuff like that, as I mostly care about what the guys on the team I root for do while in uniform. Their personal life does not interest me much at all.
As for last night, I hadn't seen Hader pitch before and was looking forward to seeing him. Too bad he didn't have his best stuff, though he could've escaped unscathed had Votto handled that pop-up.
I'm in this camp. While it is never a good thing when something like this comes out, the one thing he can't do is let it affect the clubhouse. LoCain said that they already talked about it a little in D.C., but I still imagine that Haders first stop in MKE is either Counsells office or Stearns, and immediately following that he'll address the team. You can't take back what you tweeted, but you can, and have to, clear the air with your teammates.
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 18, 2018, 07:31:54 AM
People say stupid things all the time, especially when they're 17. Putting it in print for the world to see, however, is not too bright, even at 17.
I tend not to worry about stuff like that, as I mostly care about what the guys on the team I root for do while in uniform. Their personal life does not interest me much at all.
Ditto. He said something stupid when he was a kid, he apologized. Whatever. Just play baseball.
The part that pisses me off more is a) this is egg on the face of the franchise after what has been a brutal week and could be a distraction that affects on the field play and b) now I have to deal with self righteous "holier than thou" Cubs fans online and in real life who will use this as another reason to crap on the Brewers. And that gets on my nerves more than what someone tweeted when they were 17.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 18, 2018, 08:42:23 AM
Ditto. He said something stupid when he was a kid, he apologized. Whatever. Just play baseball.
The part that pisses me off more is a) this is egg on the face of the franchise after what has been a brutal week and could be a distraction that affects on the field play and b) now I have to deal with self righteous "holier than thou" Cubs fans online and in real life who will use this as another reason to crap on the Brewers. And that gets on my nerves more than what someone tweeted when they were 17.
So you have a bigger problem with opposing fans ribbing your team than you have with a person making racist and homophobic comments?
Honestly, it's why Twitter does more harm than good too often. Glad it didn't exist when I was young when the limits of my own stupidity were more confined. Glad I don't and never will have an account.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 10:55:14 PM
Hader has locked his account.
I don't understand why any famous person doesn't lock old accounts if they suspect they had something best kept forgotten and just create a new account going forward.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 18, 2018, 08:06:56 AM
quoted for you bud. wheres my reading comprehension bad? "I know plenty of 17 year olds. Most don't tweet dumb racist stuff."
so you either follow the 17 year olds on twitter or you don't know what theyre tweeting, as stated all along.
you try to play it off like youre smarter than anyone who would question you and go all tough guy and ask for a quote. oops?
the answer to "Huh?" is "Yes." now thats a new one.
No. Read it again please.
And if me calling out your lack of logic makes me a tough guy - then I guess I'm a tough guy.
Quote from: jsglow on July 18, 2018, 09:01:30 AM
Honestly, it's why Twitter does more harm than good too often. Glad it didn't exist when I was young when the limits of my own stupidity were more confined. Glad I don't and never will have an account.
This.
It is not Twitter's fault, of course, but the temptation is just too great for some people, from some of the most powerful people in the world to dopey teenagers.
I see no reason why I would ever twit.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 09:29:21 AM
No. Read it again please.
And if me calling out your lack of logic makes me a tough guy - then I guess I'm a tough guy.
read again. "I know plenty of 17 year olds. Most don't tweet dumb racist stuff."
so either you follow 17 year olds on twitter or you dont know what 17 year olds are tweeting.
apparently youre the one with the reading comprehension issue and/or have an inability to type what you mean.
logic = i dont follow 17 year olds on twitter but i can tell you what 17 year olds are tweeting.
again, adds up.
Starting to think we've misidentified chicos.
Or maybe this is just his alter ego.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 18, 2018, 08:42:23 AM
Ditto. He said something stupid when he was a kid, he apologized. Whatever. Just play baseball.
The part that pisses me off more is a) this is egg on the face of the franchise after what has been a brutal week and could be a distraction that affects on the field play and b) now I have to deal with self righteous "holier than thou" Cubs fans online and in real life who will use this as another reason to crap on the Brewers. And that gets on my nerves more than what someone tweeted when they were 17.
Sorry but tweeting racist and homophobic garbage is not equivalent to "saying something stupid". It is far beyond that.
If you feel that way at 17-18 years old there's a solid chance you still feel that way 7-8 years later. Sure, people can change but I think that's more the exception than the rule.
As someone pointed out, Markus Howard was 17 when he was here. Would you have had the same reaction if he had tweeted anything similar? He was just a kid who did something stupid?
Why does someone have to follow 17 year olds on twitter to know that most aren't tweeting racist and homophobic crap? Isn't possible to talk to people about twitter and learn the same information?
Also I do follow 17 year olds on twitter for recruiting information. I can confirm that most of them don't tweet racist and homophobic crap.
Quote from: MU82 on July 18, 2018, 09:41:03 AM
Starting to think we've misidentified chicos.
Or maybe this is just his alter ego.
This guy is like the Mogwai that spawned on Gizmo's back in Gremlins. Chico is Gizmo, WithoutBias is the crappy Mogwai.
Eh, I will say I think many here are overestimating how angelic most 17 year olds are, and underestimate how much people mature from the time they're in high school to the time they're in their mid 20s.
Most 17 year olds have said things like these tweets or encouraged others who said such things at some point or another. Most are not stupid enough to immortalize it online.
Hell, I know annoy everyone on this site with my wokeness and I can think of times when my 17 year old self laughed at things like those tweets. I used to think gay and racist jokes were funny. Does that mean I think they are still funny today? No, I went to college and grew up.
Don't mistake me, just because a lot of 17 year olds say stupid stuff didn't excuse the behavior. It was wrong when he tweeted it and it's wrong now. Hader is a guy who said some stupid things as a kid. As long as he owns it, apologizes, and does better that's all we can ask for at this point.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 18, 2018, 09:45:45 AM
Why does someone have to follow 17 year olds on twitter to know that most aren't tweeting racist and homophobic crap? Isn't possible to talk to people about twitter and learn the same information?
Also I do follow 17 year olds on twitter for recruiting information. I can confirm that most of them don't tweet racist and homophobic crap.
Thank you and thank you.
See Bias....reading is pretty simple.
Reading this in the light most charitable to Hader, he was 17 in a small unincorporated town in Maryland and may have had limited exposure to people and the world. In the intervening years he's certainly met and been exposed to the remarkable diversity of professional baseball and may have realized the error of his ways. People grow and change.
Has he? No way to know what's in his heart, but I hope he has.
Wow. This is a fun conversation.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 18, 2018, 09:54:31 AM
Eh, I will say I think many here are overestimating how angelic most 17 year olds are, and underestimate how much people mature from the time they're in high school to the time they're in their mid 20s.
Most 17 year olds have said things like these tweets or encouraged others who said such things at some point or another. Most are not stupid enough to immortalize it online.
Hell, I know annoy everyone on this site with my wokeness and I can think of times when my 17 year old self laughed at things like those tweets. I used to think gay and racist jokes were funny. Does that mean I think they are still funny today? No, I went to college and grew up.
Don't mistake me, just because a lot of 17 year olds say stupid stuff didn't excuse the behavior. It was wrong when he tweeted it and it's wrong now. Hader is a guy who said some stupid things as a kid. As long as he owns it, apologizes, and does better that's all we can ask for at this point.
Yup. This is where I'm at. If anybody claims they never said something like that or laughed at something like that or quoted an inappropriate movie or song when they were in their late teens and then looked back on it in their 20s they're lying. We've all done stupid stuff. Sure, some of us are at least smart enough not to throw it on the internet for everyone to see, but the reality is even if we did, 99.99% of us would never be exposed for it.
Hader could be a homophobic racist today, but looking back on his Tweets from 7 years ago when he was 17 years old does not prove that at all. To say that peoples' views and perspectives don't change much between when they're 17 and when they're 24 is absolutely asinine.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiZnrqxVQAARt30.jpg)
And Jacob Nottingham just deleted his twitter account.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 18, 2018, 11:42:52 AM
And Jacob Nottingham just deleted his twitter account.
youre all over this.
Well it's the first comment on the Brewers statement on their twitter page.
Look how far I had to dig!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 18, 2018, 09:54:31 AM
Eh, I will say I think many here are overestimating how angelic most 17 year olds are, and underestimate how much people mature from the time they're in high school to the time they're in their mid 20s.
Most 17 year olds have said things like these tweets or encouraged others who said such things at some point or another. Most are not stupid enough to immortalize it online.
Hell, I know annoy everyone on this site with my wokeness and I can think of times when my 17 year old self laughed at things like those tweets. I used to think gay and racist jokes were funny. Does that mean I think they are still funny today? No, I went to college and grew up.
Don't mistake me, just because a lot of 17 year olds say stupid stuff didn't excuse the behavior. It was wrong when he tweeted it and it's wrong now. Hader is a guy who said some stupid things as a kid. As long as he owns it, apologizes, and does better that's all we can ask for at this point.
Ditto man. Not only did I say some and laugh at homophobic and racist jokes when I was 17, but I hear it all the time from my students, and I do everything I can to shut it down. Many high school students (especially male athletes, in my experience) don't care or seem to know why what they say is hurtful, but I have faith that those formative years between 18 and 23 will help.
I take very little stock in what someone said when they were in high school when judging them as an adult.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 18, 2018, 10:52:41 AM
Yup. This is where I'm at. If anybody claims they never said something like that or laughed at something like that or quoted an inappropriate movie or song when they were in their late teens and then looked back on it in their 20s they're lying. We've all done stupid stuff. Sure, some of us are at least smart enough not to throw it on the internet for everyone to see, but the reality is even if we did, 99.99% of us would never be exposed for it.
Hader could be a homophobic racist today, but looking back on his Tweets from 7 years ago when he was 17 years old does not prove that at all. To say that peoples' views and perspectives don't change much between when they're 17 and when they're 24 is absolutely asinine.
I said their basic values really don't change much between 17 and 24.
Sew, 'spose Josh could always bee a MKE cop if da 'hole baseball thin' goes south. Hey?
MLB is making Hader go to Sensitivity Training.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 11:56:06 AM
I said their basic values really don't change much between 17 and 24.
I don't know if that's fair. That's a pretty transformative period for a lot of people, when many leave the cocoon provided by their homes, schools and communities and go off to college or the workplace or the military. Or, in Hader's case, the Orioles' minor league system. I'd venture to guess he interacted with more people outside his own culture in two months of minor league ball than he did in 17 years of growing up in central Maryland.
This is not to excuse his tweets ... only disputing the notion that a person's values don't or can't change much between 17 and 24. In fact, that can be the time in life when a person's outlook changes the most.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 18, 2018, 12:22:02 PM
MLB is making Hader go to Sensitivity Training.
Well, I mean, they can't do nothing. Maybe it'll actually do him some good.
If Jesus thinks he's changed, then who are we to argue.
https://twitter.com/JAguilarMKE/status/1019639195478962176 (https://twitter.com/JAguilarMKE/status/1019639195478962176)
Quote from: The Deane Team on July 18, 2018, 12:54:36 PM
If Jesus thinks he's changed, then who are we to argue.
https://twitter.com/JAguilarMKE/status/1019639195478962176 (https://twitter.com/JAguilarMKE/status/1019639195478962176)
Of course Jesus is going to forgive him!
In a turn of events that is less surprising than this thread heading off the rails, Baltimore may have issues with some of the medicals in the deal. Maybe LA isn't Manny's new home after all.
just remember-anything you say(or video :-[), on SCOOP, twitter, facebook, fill in the blank tube can and will be used against ya'll...and ya can't use the excuse that you were just looking for some old girlfriend videos either ;) ruh-roh
Yelich was the guest on Pardon My Take today. Interesting conversation and went into the Jose Fernandez accident. It definitely gives greater insight into the human element that gets overlooked in pro sports.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 18, 2018, 11:53:58 AM
Ditto man. Not only did I say some and laugh at homophobic and racist jokes when I was 17, but I hear it all the time from my students, and I do everything I can to shut it down. Many high school students (especially male athletes, in my experience) don't care or seem to know why what they say is hurtful, but I have faith that those formative years between 18 and 23 will help.
I take very little stock in what someone said when they were in high school when judging them as an adult.
For some reason - and I fully allow that I could be "wrong" about this - I find a pretty big difference between somebody saying something in conversation and somebody taking the time to post something.
To actually go online and make the effort to tweet something racist or put it on FB, that seems "worse" to me.
Quote from: MU82 on July 18, 2018, 04:09:00 PM
For some reason - and I fully allow that I could be "wrong" about this - I find a pretty big difference between somebody saying something in conversation and somebody taking the time to post something.
To actually go online and make the effort to tweet something racist or put it on FB, that seems "worse" to me.
I understand what you are saying but I could also see a generational difference here. Online conversation to many in the youngest generation is as authentic and natural as in person conversation. I have had students who post, tweet, snap, etc their every thought without hesitation. Me personally, I don't post on social media often, and when I do I carefully choose what I want to say and its always something "worth saying" so to speak. My younger brother? He posts any and every thing because his online life is just as important to him as his in person life.
From Ad Age:
An explosive display of hitting power by young stars like the Yankees' Aaron Judge and two-time MVP Mike Trout wasn't enough to keep baseball fans glued to their TV sets Tuesday night, as Major League Baseball's 89th annual All-Star Game posted record low ratings.
According to Nielsen live-plus-same-day data, Fox's coverage of the Midsummer Classic averaged just 8.69 million viewers and a 5.2 household rating, marking a decline of 6 percent and 5 percent, respectively, compared to last year's broadcast (9.28 million viewers, 5.5 rating). Despite offering fans a highly entertaining sluggers' clinic—in a game that would be decided in extra innings, American League and National League hitters walloped a staggering 10 home runs, crushing the previous record of six—last night's impromptu dinger derby now ranks as the least-watched, lowest-rated All-Star Game in the 52 years in which Nielsen has been keeping track of that sort of thing.
Here's where I could throw out the wise-crack about the problem having been too much standing for the national anthem ... but I won't do that!
Quote from: Pakuni on July 18, 2018, 12:44:20 PM
I don't know if that's fair. That's a pretty transformative period for a lot of people, when many leave the cocoon provided by their homes, schools and communities and go off to college or the workplace or the military. Or, in Hader's case, the Orioles' minor league system. I'd venture to guess he interacted with more people outside his own culture in two months of minor league ball than he did in 17 years of growing up in central Maryland.
This is not to excuse his tweets ... only disputing the notion that a person's values don't or can't change much between 17 and 24. In fact, that can be the time in life when a person's outlook changes the most.
I agree with this analysis.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 18, 2018, 04:55:25 PM
I understand what you are saying but I could also see a generational difference here. Online conversation to many in the youngest generation is as authentic and natural as in person conversation. I have had students who post, tweet, snap, etc their every thought without hesitation. Me personally, I don't post on social media often, and when I do I carefully choose what I want to say and its always something "worth saying" so to speak. My younger brother? He posts any and every thing because his online life is just as important to him as his in person life.
Makes sense, TAMU.
We do have to educate these kids that once they put it out there for all to say, there's no "take-backsies." It is public record forever - to be viewed by potential employers, potential spouses, potential friends, etc.
Quote from: MU82 on July 18, 2018, 10:30:25 PM
Makes sense, TAMU.
We do have to educate these kids that once they put it out there for all to say, there's no "take-backsies." It is public record forever - to be viewed by potential employers, potential spouses, potential friends, etc.
People running for political office 10-20 years from now is going to be fascinating because their entire lifes will have been lived in/on/with social media
Quote from: mu03eng on July 19, 2018, 06:39:17 AM
People running for political office 10-20 years from now is going to be fascinating because their entire lifes will have been lived in/on/with social media
The person we elected to run our country continues to live his entire life in/on/with social media right now.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2018, 07:38:23 AM
The person we elected to run our country continues to live his entire life in/on/with social media right now.
Fair, but I really mean from the time you are 12 until you are relatively formed as a political ideologist in your 30s there is a lot of growth, change, and positions you will later reject as you get more mature/educated.
"My opponent says he stands for position X, but if you look at his Facebook posts he clearly opposed position X so is he a flip flopper."
Greg Maddux issued just 499 bases on balls over his final 501 career starts.
Of those 499 bases on balls, 101 were intentional walks.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2018, 07:38:23 AM
The person we elected to run our country continues to live his entire life in/on/with social media right now.
There was an onion article about this a few years back, something like "Republicans and Democrats both try to recruit Earl Figgins, a teenager in Appalachia who is the only person in America without the internet, as he will be the only electable candidate in 2028."
In order to be consistent, none of us want to be judged by the stupid crap we said or did in our teens. Most of us grow up and stop. Milwaukee and MLB are handling this correctly. If, going forward, he continues to exhibit racist or homophobic behavior, either by his actions or social media posts, he can be judged as an adult who should know better.
Quote from: tower912 on July 19, 2018, 08:32:52 AM
In order to be consistent, none of us want to be judged by the stupid crap we said or did in our teens. Most of us grow up and stop. Milwaukee and MLB are handling this correctly. If, going forward, he continues to exhibit racist or homophobic behavior, either by his actions or social media posts, he can be judged as an adult who should know better.
He should have known better at 18 years old.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 19, 2018, 08:28:44 AM
Greg Maddux issued just 499 bases on balls over his final 501 career starts.
Of those 499 bases on balls, 101 were intentional walks.
Tony Gwynn hit .415/.476/.521 in 107 plate appearences against Greg Maddux. Without a striking out a single time.
Time for MLB expansion?
Manfred lists Portland, Las Vegas, Charlotte, Nashville, Montreal and Vancouver as possibilities.
https://deadspin.com/rob-manfred-says-he-wants-mlb-expansion-lists-six-pote-1827712616
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 19, 2018, 08:44:09 AM
Tony Gwynn hit .415/.476/.521 in 107 plate appearences against Greg Maddux. Without a striking out a single time.
That was the ultimate standoff for umpires. Greg Maddux got an extra 6 inches on both sides of the plate and guys like Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs traditionally got the corners called their way. Must've been confusing for umpires to call those ABs.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 19, 2018, 08:37:57 AM
He should have known better at 18 years old.
I agree with this too.
I've thought about this a lot and haven't really come to a conclusion, but keep coming back to the idea of human imperfection and wanting to encourage self-improvement. If Hader once was prejudiced, but has since improved himself, does he deserve to be forever tainted? Or is some manner of reform/rehabilitation acceptable?
Like I said, I haven't really figured out where I fall on this, sorry for the incoherent rambling.
Quote from: jficke13 on July 19, 2018, 10:31:01 AM
I've thought about this a lot and haven't really come to a conclusion, but keep coming back to the idea of human imperfection and wanting to encourage self-improvement. If Hader once was prejudiced, but has since improved himself, does he deserve to be forever tainted? Or is some manner of reform/rehabilitation acceptable?
I would say...no he is not forever tainted and yes some manner of "enlightenment" is achievable. (Not sure I like the words reform or rehabilitation. Not sure it rises to that level.) And maybe he already has been "enlightened" through his broader experiences since he was 17 and no longer shares the views of his younger self.
That being said, I don't like the "kids do stupid things" excuse.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 19, 2018, 08:37:57 AM
He should have known better at 18 years old.
You would hope that his parents would have been teaching him all along that racist, homophobic comments are wrong. 18 year olds are idiots. Most people grow out of it. Some never do.
Quote from: tower912 on July 19, 2018, 10:44:04 AM
You would hope that his parents would have been teaching him all along that racist, homophobic comments are wrong. 18 year olds are idiots. Most people grow out of it. Some never do.
and yet i would argue that most kids that are truly racists homophobes were molded into that by their parents.
of course hader shouldve known better than to tweet the clearly inappropriate things he did when he was 17 years old. but youre lying to yourself if youre telling people you didnt say insensitive stuff when you were a teenager. how much "better" is it to say "thats so gay!" when you don't like something than it is to say "i hate gay people?" is one more blunt than the other? yup. but if youre like "hey i have nothing against gay people" then why are you saying something is "gay" when you don't like it? are we going to say that every adult who ever said something like that when they were a teenager is a homophobe? youre also lying to yourself if youre telling people youve never quoted an inappropriate song or movie line.
it was stupid. it was inappropriate. it was unacceptable. but to say the "young and immature excuse doesnt play" is wrong. he was 17. it was 7 years ago, probably before he experienced any kind of diversity in his life and probably mostly while he was dicking around being a dumbass teenager.
im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that hes grown as a person over the last 7, almost undoubtedly most shaping, years of his life. and given that before this weekend we never heard anything but how great of a guy he is im guessing he has grown since he was a clearly immature teen.
if some want to lie and say they never said anything insensitive and inappropriate when they were younger and less mature so be it. hader didnt back down or make excuses he owned it and said he screwed up. hopefully hes learned.
At what point does being "a stupid kid" and "not knowing any better" no longer apply? Age 18? 20? 25?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
At what point does being "a stupid kid" and "not knowing any better" no longer apply? Age 18? 20? 25?
Is there a set age that we should set it at?
Kids develop at different times.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2018, 11:09:22 AM
Is there a set age that we should set it at?
Kids develop at different times.
So if he posted these things at age 22, would you say that he just hasn't developed/matured yet? Would he still be a stupid kid who didn't know any better?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:12:46 AM
So if he posted these things at age 22, would you say that he just hasn't developed/matured yet? Would he still be a stupid kid who didn't know any better?
No.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2018, 11:15:09 AM
No.
What about if he was 19?
(See where we're going with this?)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:17:02 AM
What about if he was 19?
(See where we're going with this?)
No, I don't see where you're going with this.
He was in high school. I don't know about you, but I matured quite a bit after I got out of high school. I'd guess most people do? But apparently I might be in the minority thinking that.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
At what point does being "a stupid kid" and "not knowing any better" no longer apply? Age 18? 20? 25?
For some, DUI's at 29 count as youthful indiscretions. For others, unsealed juvenile records of things that may or may not have happened at 14 are reason to not be allowed to pursue a career. IMO, a 17-18 year old saying stupid crap on twitter still counts as a stupid kid. I have frequently discussed with friends, family, and coworkers, the notion that the nature of young people hasn't really changed over the years, just the tools with which they can get in trouble. When most of us were kids, we would do stupid crap and there would be a circle of silence among our friends. Today, the same stupid stuff gets posted on instachatweet and it is accessible to everyone and forever. Kids don't think about long term repercussions. They never have.
An example.... a couple of years ago, at a holiday party thrown by a kid whose parents were out of town, an underage couple decided to have sex in one of the bedrooms. Nothing new here. Teenagers have been having sex since there have been teenagers and sex. One of their friends entered the bedroom and busted them in the middle. Still nothing really new here. But the friend took a picture on his phone and posted it..... making him a child pornographer. Is the friend really a child pornographer? No, he is a dumb kid. But in the eyes of the law, he is now labelled forever.
Hader posted stupid crap while not yet old enough to vote. It makes him a kid who was an immature jerk. By all accounts, he has grown and matured. And he should never go on social media again.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2018, 11:20:12 AM
No, I don't see where you're going with this.
He was in high school. I don't know about you, but I matured quite a bit after I got out of high school. I'd guess most people do? But apparently I might be in the minority thinking that.
Jesuits will do that to you.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
At what point does being "a stupid kid" and "not knowing any better" no longer apply? Age 18? 20? 25?
What does it matter? Hader wasn't 18 or 20 or 25. He was 17. Let's deal with reality instead of stretching hypotheticals to justify whatever point it is you're trying to make.
Hader's tweets, as offensive as they were, were juvenile ramblings. He wasn't posting white supremacist manifestos or marching on a college town with a tiki torch. Let's not make more of this that it deserves because he plays for a different team than the one you cheer for.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2018, 11:20:12 AM
No, I don't see where you're going with this.
He was in high school. I don't know about you, but I matured quite a bit after I got out of high school. I'd guess most people do? But apparently I might be in the minority thinking that.
So, at age 17, it's fine for him to post racial slurs online but at age 22, it's not. Going back to my original question, how do we decide when a person reaches the point where the "young and dumb" excuse no longer flies? For you, it's apparently sometime between age 18 and 22. For me, I think that a 17yo should know better than to post wildly offensive comments online.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 19, 2018, 11:35:30 AM
What does it matter? Hader wasn't 18 or 20 or 25. He was 17. Let's deal with reality instead of stretching hypotheticals to justify whatever point it is you're trying to make.
Hader's tweets, as offensive as they were, were juvenile ramblings. He wasn't posting white supremacist manifestos or marching on a college town with a tiki torch. Let's not make more of this that it deserves because he plays for a different team than the one you cheer for.
Ah, the old "it could have been worse" defense. So if you had a 17yo, you'd be OK with him/her posting those same things online? After all, it's just "juvenile ramblings." It's not like your kid killed someone, right?
Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, this incident is part of a larger issue that's not specific to Hader. Kids do stupid things but simply being a kid doesn't make it acceptable to do those things. The kid in tower's story should absolutely be labeled for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid to warrant that label. That's how it works. One awful mistake, whether you're 16 or 60, can have a hugely negative effect on the rest of your life. People need to recognize that.
I just have a hard time getting on-board with "young and dumb" being an out for awful behavior. Now...get off my lawn!
EDIT: Just to clarify. I don't think Hader should be punished by MLB or the Brewers. Sending him to Sensitivity Training is the right move and I truly hope he learns from it and that he has already changed and grown as a person. I just have a problem with people shrugging it off as if he did nothing wrong simply because he was 17.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:54:14 AM
So, at age 17, it's fine for him to post racial slurs online but at age 22, it's not. Going back to my original question, how do we decide when a person reaches the point where the "young and dumb" excuse no longer flies? For you, it's apparently sometime between age 18 and 22. For me, I think that a 17yo should know better than to post wildly offensive comments online.
Ah, the old "it could have been worse" defense. So if you had a 17yo, you'd be OK with him/her posting those same things online? After all, it's just "juvenile ramblings." It's not like your kid killed someone, right?
Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, this incident is part of a larger issue that's not specific to Hader. Kids do stupid things but simply being a kid doesn't make it acceptable to do those things. The kid in tower's story should absolutely be labeled for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid to warrant that label. That's how it works. One awful mistake, whether you're 16 or 60, can have a hugely negative effect on the rest of your life. People need to recognize that.
I just have a hard time getting on-board with "young and dumb" being an out for awful behavior. Now...get off my lawn!
I wouldn't call young and dumb an excuse. I think I would call it context.
Age does not excuse the behavior. It was bad when he did it and it's still bad now.
But I do expect more of a 60 year old than I do of a 16 year old. And I think that's a fair expectation.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:54:14 AM
Ah, the old "it could have been worse" defense. So if you had a 17yo, you'd be OK with him/her posting those same things online? After all, it's just "juvenile ramblings." It's not like your kid killed someone, right?
C'mon, really? You really want to dumb things down this much?
I offered no defense, much less than "it could have been worse" defense, nor did I say anything about me being OK with this, whether it be my kid or anyone else's kid.
I'm simply suggesting that one have the intellectual capacity to exercise a little nuance and distinguish between the juvenile tweets of a high school kid and those of others we rightfully label as racists. Sorry, but you'll never convince me that what Hader (or Josh Allen or Donte Divincenzo) did is the moral equivalent of David Duke and the Daily Stormer.
If that kind of thinking is a bit much for some, so be it.
Quote
Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it.
OK,
sure.
Quote
In fact, this incident is part of a larger issue that's not specific to Hader. Kids do stupid things but simply being a kid doesn't make it acceptable to do those things. The kid in tower's story should absolutely be labeled for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid to warrant that label. That's how it works. One awful mistake, whether you're 16 or 60, can have a hugely negative effect on the rest of your life. People need to recognize that.
So you consider the kid in Tower's example a child pornographer? Yikes.
QuoteI just have a problem with people shrugging it off as if he did nothing wrong simply because he was 17.
Yeah, not a single person here has done that.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:54:14 AM
So, at age 17, it's fine for him to post racial slurs online but at age 22, it's not. Going back to my original question, how do we decide when a person reaches the point where the "young and dumb" excuse no longer flies? For you, it's apparently sometime between age 18 and 22. For me, I think that a 17yo should know better than to post wildly offensive comments online.
Ah, the old "it could have been worse" defense. So if you had a 17yo, you'd be OK with him/her posting those same things online? After all, it's just "juvenile ramblings." It's not like your kid killed someone, right?
Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, this incident is part of a larger issue that's not specific to Hader. Kids do stupid things but simply being a kid doesn't make it acceptable to do those things. The kid in tower's story should absolutely be labeled for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid to warrant that label. That's how it works. One awful mistake, whether you're 16 or 60, can have a hugely negative effect on the rest of your life. People need to recognize that.
I just have a hard time getting on-board with "young and dumb" being an out for awful behavior. Now...get off my lawn!
EDIT: Just to clarify. I don't think Hader should be punished by MLB or the Brewers. Sending him to Sensitivity Training is the right move and I truly hope he learns from it and that he has already changed and grown as a person. I just have a problem with people shrugging it off as if he did nothing wrong simply because he was 17.
Who said it's fine?
Your parents clearly had it easy with you.
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 19, 2018, 10:11:48 AM
That was the ultimate standoff for umpires. Greg Maddux got an extra 6 inches on both sides of the plate and guys like Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs traditionally got the corners called their way. Must've been confusing for umpires to call those ABs.
Every dude's gotta envy Maddux, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 19, 2018, 12:21:17 PM
Every dude's gotta envy Maddux, hey?
Great stat from Bush Leaguer...
Cubs' Tyler Chatwood has now walked 73 batters in 84 IP this year. Greg Maddux only walked a total of 71 batters from 1995-1997 in 687.1 IP.
Question for Brewers fans. I've been following Brewer minor leaguer Tim Dillard on Twitter for a year or two now. He's a great follow if aren't doing so.
Anyway, I thought I'd look up his stats and I see he was drafted in 2001 and only got a handful of appearances in 2008, 09, 11, and 12. He's 34 now and his stats appear to be pretty awful but they've kept him around for 17 years. Just wondered what his story is. That's pretty impressive spending that much time living as a minor leaguer much less with a single organization.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 19, 2018, 01:22:08 PM
Question for Brewers fans. I've been following Brewer minor leaguer Tim Dillard on Twitter for a year or two now. He's a great follow if aren't doing so.
Anyway, I thought I'd look up his stats and I see he was drafted in 2001 and only got a handful of appearances in 2008, 09, 11, and 12. He's 34 now and his stats appear to be pretty awful but they've kept him around for 17 years. Just wondered what his story is. That's pretty impressive spending that much time living as a minor leaguer much less with a single organization.
http://www.baseballessential.com/news/2016/05/06/tim-dillard-baseballs-funniest-man/
Quote from: Pakuni on July 19, 2018, 08:47:16 AM
Time for MLB expansion?
Manfred lists Portland, Las Vegas, Charlotte, Nashville, Montreal and Vancouver as possibilities.
https://deadspin.com/rob-manfred-says-he-wants-mlb-expansion-lists-six-pote-1827712616
1. Charlotte
2. Nashville
3. Montreal
The rest aren't that exciting to me.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 19, 2018, 08:47:16 AM
Time for MLB expansion?
Manfred lists Portland, Las Vegas, Charlotte, Nashville, Montreal and Vancouver as possibilities.
https://deadspin.com/rob-manfred-says-he-wants-mlb-expansion-lists-six-pote-1827712616
1) No expansion
2) Vancouver
3) Portland (I'm assuming Oregon, though Maine would be cool too)
4) Montreal
5) Las Vegas
6) Nashville
7) Charlotte
Quote from: #bansultan on July 19, 2018, 01:53:17 PM
1. Charlotte
2. Nashville
3. Montreal
The rest aren't that exciting to me.
I think Portland or Vancouver would be fine and help Seattle cut down on their travel a little. They should expand to two of them and move Tampa Bay to a third. The Rays have had some very good teams and they just don't draw. And half the fans that do show up are rooting for the other team from where they used to live.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 19, 2018, 01:57:44 PM
1) No expansion
2) Vancouver
3) Portland (I'm assuming Oregon, though Maine would be cool too)
4) Montreal
5) Las Vegas
6) Nashville
7) Charlotte
I'd like to see expansion (or reduction, why is there still a team in Tampa?) to an even number in each league so we can get rid of interleague play.
If MLB does realignment with expansion (one would think they'd go hand in hand), Portland seems like a near lock. Funny enough I'm in Portland right now, but they have a decent enough market size and seem to have their act together. An MLB schedule with realignment and more of a focus on reduced travel would certainly help both Portland and Seattle. I'd love for the Expos to come back because I always loved their uniforms/logos, but it seems like it'd be a coinflip between Charlotte/Nashville for the second team.
I think secretly MLB would love to relocate the Rays to Brooklyn if they could.
For expansion for the sole purpose of leading to realignment that kills the unbalanced schedule. It sucks.
All for expansion if they eliminate interleague play, balance the schedule, and shorten it to at least 154 games if not 148.
I have a real good friend in Portland. He's said that the town just isn't a big baseball town any longer.
The strike killed baseball in Montreal.
Olympic Stadium was an interesting place to see a game. Montreal Steak sandwiches and poutine on the concession menu.
Personally, I think Vancouver is a much better choice out west. And I'm not so sure with Nashville but Charlotte makes sense. Couldn't they just put a bullet in the head of the 2 FLA franchises and move 'em?
And not to insult my Chicago friends but the Sox do hang on by their fingernails. Maybe not in comparison to the Rays but still. Oakland is pathetic too with a team right across the bay making them vulnerable.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 19, 2018, 02:41:55 PM
All for expansion if they eliminate interleague play, balance the schedule, and shorten it to at least 154 games if not 148.
Hard to imagine the owner ever agreeing to fewer games.
Tampa are building a brand new stadium. They ain't going anywhere.
I'd pick Charlotte and Montreal if there had to be two.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 19, 2018, 08:44:09 AM
Tony Gwynn hit .415/.476/.521 in 107 plate appearences against Greg Maddux. Without a striking out a single time.
Wow...
Both of these guys were really special.
Former MLB reliever Mike Stanton does backup color for Astros and they (Jeff Bagwell stopped by for a few innings) recently were discussing pitchers who could hit all four corners on command....like Greg Maddux (like Verlander, now w/Astros), etc...and Stanton noted how Gwynn (like Altuve) would handle Maddux and make contact at all the corners.....so ....
Stanton mentioned some other pitcher (forgot name)who did uniquely well against Gwynn...that pitcher revealing that as good as Gwynn was all over the corners the pitch he least expected was high and right down the middle. Trained to handle all the hard pitches to hit.... this guy beat Gwynn by crossing him up at key times, with the easiest pitch
Gotta love baseball....always thinking and adjusting
Two things to note:
Scoop has dragged this Hadar thing longer then the mlb, the brewers, and the media. Crazy
Scoop also hates interleague play, but I love it.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 19, 2018, 04:40:12 PM
Tampa are building a brand new stadium. They ain't going anywhere.
I'd pick Charlotte and Montreal if there had to be two.
it has been "pitched" but i wouldn't be standing in line for tickets just yet for a couple of reasons-
1)there ain't no line anyway as they have been at/near the bottom of all attendance numbers
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/rays3.shtml
2) this could be a referendum on whether or not tampa keeps a baseball team or not
the $900 million dollar stadium would have just over 28.000 fixed seats and just under 31.000 total capacity. the dome itself is projected to cost $240 million. at least with it's seating capacity, it wouldn't look so empty, 'ey?
https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/07/10/tampa-bay-rays-new-stadium-plans-photos-ybor-city-tropicana-field
if i were a resident near/in tampa, i'd follow the money and keep your wallet in front pocket with a biker chain on it
Quote from: jsglow on July 19, 2018, 04:07:23 PM
Personally, I think Vancouver is a much better choice out west. And I'm not so sure with Nashville but Charlotte makes sense. Couldn't they just put a bullet in the head of the 2 FLA franchises and move 'em?
And not to insult my Chicago friends but the Sox do hang on by their fingernails. Maybe not in comparison to the Rays but still. Oakland is pathetic too with a team right across the bay making them vulnerable.
The Sox are printing money. Financially they have zero reason to even ponder moving.
The Charlotte expansion talk is very interesting.
I believe we are the fastest-growing city in the country (or in the top 3), with Millennials espeicially moving here. Do Millennials watch baseball? Maybe they do - I didn't mean that snarkily at all. I legitimately don't know. It's an awfully boring game to some people, and I would have thought Millennials might fit that.
We built a cool minor-league ballpark that opened in 2014. The White Sox's AAA team plays there. They sell out most nights. It's right downtown with great views and right in the middle of "the action."
It is on too small a piece of land to be expanded to MLB size, so they'd have to start all over again.
There was a guy who repeatedly sued to get the ballpark stopped. His contention was that we should be going after an MLB team instead of the minors, and most laughed at him. I guess he's probably laughing now.
Not saying we couldn't do MLB here, but we barely support the Panthers and Hornets now.
I'd love to see it, but I can't see it happening.
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 19, 2018, 10:11:48 AM
That was the ultimate standoff for umpires. Greg Maddux got an extra 6 inches on both sides of the plate and guys like Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs traditionally got the corners called their way. Must've been confusing for umpires to call those ABs.
Sorry, no pitcher has ever gotten 6 inches on either side of the plate.
Maybe it was just hyperbole cuz Maddux and Glavine did get a slightly larger zone.
Why the hate for interleague play? I love it
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 19, 2018, 07:50:03 PM
Why the hate for interleague play? I love it
love it or hate it, there's no going back to NL only and AL only. interleague is here to stay.
Quote from: MU82 on July 19, 2018, 06:54:39 PM
The Charlotte expansion talk is very interesting.
I believe we are the fastest-growing city in the country (or in the top 3) with Millennials espeicially moving here. Do Millennials watch baseball? Maybe they do - I didn't meant that snarkily at all. I legitimately don't know. It's an awfully boring game to some people, and I would have though Millennials might fit that.
We built a cool minor-league ballpark that opened in 2014. The White Sox's AAA team plays there. They sell out most nights. It's right downtown with great views and right in the middle of "the action."
It is on too small a piece of land to be expanded to MLB size, so they'd have to start all over again.
There was a guy who repeatedly sued to get the ballpark stopped. His contention was that we should be going after an MLB team instead of the minors, and most laughed at him. I guess he's probably laughing now.
Not saying we couldn't do MLB here, but we barely support the Panthers and Hornets now.
I'd love to see it, but I can't see it happening.
i think charlotte would be an excellent place for a new team. as for the millennials-ya can't make this one up-
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/07/19/millennials-outraged-after-baseball-team-advertises-millennial-night-with-avocados-participation-ribbons-and-napping-stations.html
I will be at our local minor league team's Millennial night next week. Participation ribbons for the first thousand fans, etc.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on July 19, 2018, 08:58:35 PM
i think charlotte would be an excellent place for a new team. as for the millennials-ya can't make this one up-
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/07/19/millennials-outraged-after-baseball-team-advertises-millennial-night-with-avocados-participation-ribbons-and-napping-stations.html
Since when is napping a millennial thing?
Quote from: #bansultan on July 19, 2018, 09:21:15 PM
Since when is napping a millennial thing?
Yeah - I'm a boomer who has always thought a good nap was underrated.
I don't know about how realistic it is, probably not very, but I would love to see a team in the Caribbean somewhere, whether it was in Puerto Rico or the Dominican, I think that would be great. The travel and economics may not make it feasible, but I think it would be great.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 17, 2018, 08:11:34 AM
Thanks. I'm a believer. Chicago sports fan that isn't chicos that will fight until his death that LeBron James is, without a question, better than Michael Jordan.
Checks out.
I won't fight until my death. Sometimes better players come along, it is ok to admit it. Adults do this quite easily. I'm sure Laker fans thought Kareem was the best Laker ever, or Magic, but then I suspect some of them later in life said Kobe. Joe Montana was the greatest QB ever, remember? If a 49er fan now says Tom Brady is, does that make that 49er fan not legitimate?
Quote from: #bansultan on July 18, 2018, 05:27:48 AM
I know plenty of 17 year olds. Most don't tweet racist stuff. The youth excuse is dumb.
Really Brewer fans should expect more than that.
This season doesn't seem like it's going to end well.
17 year old boys, especially, say dumb things about girls, sexuality, and any number of subjects. Depending on where they were raised, how they were raised can play into it.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 19, 2018, 09:21:15 PM
Since when is napping a millennial thing?
Nor is the notion of participation trophies. The ones who ridicule millenialls for it are the same generation who came up with it.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 19, 2018, 07:50:03 PM
Why the hate for interleague play? I love it
Same here. Yankees - Mets this weekend!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 19, 2018, 07:50:03 PM
Why the hate for interleague play? I love it
Because my team has no natural rival and when they play in an NL park they have to play differently than they were designed to play. When we had Ortiz, he would only play half the games at 1B. Now that we have JD Martinez, we have to take Jackie Bradley Jr out of CF to accommodate him, and watching JBJ play CF is a really enjoyable thing. The Red Sox dominate in interleague play for reasons I do not understand, but I'd still rather not have it.
Yankee fans like it because they get extra games against the often hapless Mets while the Red Sox got the Braves as their repeat team the years from the start to the mid 00s and they swapped them to the Phillies when they got good in the late 00s. We don't have an automatic team any more, at least.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 19, 2018, 07:50:03 PM
Why the hate for interleague play? I love it
Because it's annoying to have to play DH games when your team isn't built for DH and vice versa. Additionally, it further unbalances the schedule because interleague play isn't against all the same teams, sometimes you get Twins and some times you get the Red Sox. Plus call me a purist, but if we're going to have two different leagues with different rules I don't think they should meet until the World Series.
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 20, 2018, 07:40:50 AM
Because my team has no natural rival and when they play in an NL park they have to play differently than they were designed to play. When we had Ortiz, he would only play half the games at 1B. Now that we have JD Martinez, we have to take Jackie Bradley Jr out of CF to accommodate him, and watching JBJ play CF is a really enjoyable thing. The Red Sox dominate in interleague play for reasons I do not understand, but I'd still rather not have it.
Yankee fans like it because they get extra games against the often hapless Mets while the Red Sox got the Braves as their repeat team the years from the start to the mid 00s and they swapped them to the Phillies when they got good in the late 00s. We don't have an automatic team any more, at least.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 20, 2018, 07:43:49 AM
Because it's annoying to have to play DH games when your team isn't built for DH and vice versa. Additionally, it further unbalances the schedule because interleague play isn't against all the same teams, sometimes you get Twins and some times you get the Red Sox. Plus call me a purist, but if we're going to have two different leagues with different rules I don't think they should meet until the World Series.
These are good advertisements for the universal DH.
Quote from: Jockey on July 19, 2018, 06:56:14 PM
Sorry, no pitcher has ever gotten 6 inches on either side of the plate.
Maybe it was just hyperbole cuz Maddux and Glavine did get a slightly larger zone.
Maddux came darned close, at least on the outer half. I don't say this in a jealous way, either. He was a master. He would paint the corner, then go just a little further outside, and a little further outside, and take the ump right along with him.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 20, 2018, 07:44:34 AM
These are good advertisements for the universal DH.
It would be better to get rid of the DH completely...or at least rename the position the Jabari.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on July 19, 2018, 08:58:35 PM
i think charlotte would be an excellent place for a new team. as for the millennials-ya can't make this one up-
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/07/19/millennials-outraged-after-baseball-team-advertises-millennial-night-with-avocados-participation-ribbons-and-napping-stations.html
The best tweet mentioned: "If you're an offended millennial complaining about this, aren't you basically furthering the stereotype?"
Quote from: #bansultan on July 20, 2018, 07:44:34 AM
These are good advertisements for the universal DH.
Or killing the DH. I want either no DH or universal DH, this senior/junior league $hit has got to go.
Killing the DH is more compelling baseball in my mind (making it more interesting for all sorts of reasons, but also longer games because of all the switching) but it also is much riskier on pitching which is where the money is right now so I can see either argument...but pick one for god's sake.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 20, 2018, 08:14:39 AM
Or killing the DH. I want either no DH or universal DH, this senior/junior league $hit has got to go.
Killing the DH is more compelling baseball in my mind (making it more interesting for all sorts of reasons, but also longer games because of all the switching) but it also is much riskier on pitching which is where the money is right now so I can see either argument...but pick one for god's sake.
I agree that MLB should stick with one rule and keep it. I disagree with the rest. Pinch hitting and double switching as strategies are not very exciting, very predictable and more than offset by watching a hitter as opposed to a pitcher bat. It used to be interesting in the old days, when managers used to try to get a pitcher through an inning so they could pinch hit for him without burning a relief pitcher for one batter, but with 7-8 man bullpens, they don't worry about that anymore.
The Cubs have acquired RHP Jesse Chavez from the Texas Rangers for Single A LHP Tyler Thomas.
Players union wouldn't agree with dropping DH right? Adopting it would be the easier path. And since pretty much all levels have it already, might as well keep it. I agree that double switches as a strategy isn't exactly compelling.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 20, 2018, 08:13:15 AM
The best tweet mentioned: "If you're an offended millennial complaining about this, aren't you basically furthering the stereotype?"
Nah, that's not a fair argument. It is akin to "if you disagree with the conspiracy theory, that proves its true".
I just got an email that I thought was an interesting baseball team promotion. The Connecticut Tigers (Single A team of Detroit) has a Magnum PI bobblehead night complete with Tigers hat and Hawaiian shirt.
Brandon Morrow had an MRI on his forearm / biceps today. He said there was "stuff in there " but nothing that needed a long term shutdown .
Joey Votto pop ups by year:
2010 - 0
2011 - 1
2012 - 1
2013 - 1
2014 - 1
2015 - 2
2016 - 0
2017 - 1
2018 - 0
Since 2010, Votto has popped it up 7 times. With the same amount of PA, the MLB average player would have popped it up 127 times.
https://twitter.com/MLBRandomStats/status/1020172530840203264
Quote from: #bansultan on July 20, 2018, 08:54:21 AM
Players union wouldn't agree with dropping DH right? Adopting it would be the easier path.
Correct. They have repeatedly said dropping the DH is not an option.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 20, 2018, 04:33:31 AM
Nor is the notion of participation trophies. The ones who ridicule millenialls for it are the same generation who came up with it.
Excellent point, Unleash.
The Millennials didn't give themselves the trophies!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 20, 2018, 10:42:31 AM
Joey Votto pop ups by year:
2010 - 0
2011 - 1
2012 - 1
2013 - 1
2014 - 1
2015 - 2
2016 - 0
2017 - 1
2018 - 0
Since 2010, Votto has popped it up 7 times. With the same amount of PA, the MLB average player would have popped it up 127 times.
https://twitter.com/MLBRandomStats/status/1020172530840203264
Holy moly. That's amazing.
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 20, 2018, 08:20:03 AM
I agree that MLB should stick with one rule and keep it. I disagree with the rest. Pinch hitting and double switching as strategies are not very exciting, very predictable and more than offset by watching a hitter as opposed to a pitcher bat. It used to be interesting in the old days, when managers used to try to get a pitcher through an inning so they could pinch hit for him without burning a relief pitcher for one batter, but with 7-8 man bullpens, they don't worry about that anymore.
I think it's not as compelling because the demand for relief pitchers in the AL isn't as pervasive in the NL so the supply can keep up. AL bull pens just aren't as deep as NL bull pens because they don't have to be. Increase the need for more quality relief pictures + new analytics would make for some very interesting in-game strategies.
But certainly not a hill I'll die on, I'd be fine to going to universal DH if they want.
I can't lie. I have never understood the love for pitchers hitting. They are terrible at it (Ohtani excluded of course, ,maybe 1 or 2 others... but even Madison Bumgarner is a .180 hitter). Why do you want to watch a terrible hitter hit? Why do you want to give a pitcher an easy way out of a difficult inning?
More strategy? I don't see it. Double switches and bunts are as routine as possible. Keeps pitchers honest? Nah. How often is the pitcher the guy hit if he hits a hitter? Rarely. The opposing teams similar hitter is the one that usually the one that wears the damage.
The DH adds excitement to the offensive side of the game, and it allows better pitchers to stay in the game longer because they don't have to be removed for a pinch hitter.
But that's just me, I've always liked the AL game better. It drives me crazy when a pitcher gets off the hook by pitching around a bad #8 hitter to face an opposing pitcher. With that being said, maybe it is just because what I have always known, but I've always liked the little difference between the two leagues, but with so much interleague play, I understand why the rules need to be the same.
Having grown up watching the AL, I appreciated the fact that the DH allowed me to see Hank Aaron in person. But that's when it ended for me. Prefer the NL by a wide margin.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 20, 2018, 10:42:31 AM
Joey Votto pop ups by year:
2010 - 0
2011 - 1
2012 - 1
2013 - 1
2014 - 1
2015 - 2
2016 - 0
2017 - 1
2018 - 0
Since 2010, Votto has popped it up 7 times. With the same amount of PA, the MLB average player would have popped it up 127 times.
https://twitter.com/MLBRandomStats/status/1020172530840203264
Additionally, in his entire career (~6500 PAs), he has never popped out to pitcher, first or catcher.
Quote from: jsglow on July 20, 2018, 12:41:25 PM
Having grown up watching the AL, I appreciated the fact that the DH allowed me to see Hank Aaron in person. But that's when it ended for me. Prefer the NL by a wide margin.
Curious as to why?
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 12:22:50 PM
More strategy? I don't see it. Double switches and bunts are as routine as possible. Keeps pitchers honest? Nah. How often is the pitcher the guy hit if he hits a hitter? Rarely. The opposing teams similar hitter is the one that usually the one that wears the damage.
I agree. I don't get where there is more strategy in the NL.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 01:21:33 PM
Curious as to why?
Because I do like the double switches and such. I think it's a purer form of the game. Personal preference.
I prefer no DH to DH personally. I've never liked the concept that 8/9 of the players have to be two way players, but 1 of the guys only played either offense or defense.
Quote from: jsglow on July 20, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
Because I do like the double switches and such. I think it's a purer form of the game. Personal preference.
(http://mlb.mlb.com/images/3/4/2/72690342/041914_colon_swings_2_27g6inde.gif)
Nothing more pure than this right here.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 02:20:13 PM
(http://mlb.mlb.com/images/3/4/2/72690342/041914_colon_swings_2_27g6inde.gif)
Nothing more pure than this right here.
So you ask my opinion, I politely give it, and get ridiculed. Nice. Have a great weekend.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 20, 2018, 02:18:11 PM
I prefer no DH to DH personally. I've never liked the concept that 8/9 of the players have to be two way players, but 1 of the guys only played either offense or defense.
Hahah, you must hate basketball then, because nowhere near 8/9 guys play offense and defense.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 02:24:36 PM
Hahah, you must hate basketball then, because nowhere near 8/9 guys play offense and defense.
And not 30 seconds later you ridicule another guy. WTF?
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 02:24:36 PM
Hahah, you must hate basketball then, because nowhere near 8/9 guys play offense and defense.
This isn't true. By definition, every player on a basketball court are always playing offense and defense. As they are on the court when their team doesn't have possession. Meanwhile, with DH, 1 of those 9 offensive players is not on the field for the defensive portion of the game.
Quote from: jsglow on July 20, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
Because I do like the double switches and such. I think it's a purer form of the game. Personal preference.
Well your personal preference is wrong and you should feel shame!!!
Couldn't resist even though I agree with you. I'm a strictly National League guy and I don't like change.
The concept of the DH has always seemed to me to be similar to when we would have ghost runners or "all time pitchers" when we were kids. Or when we only had 8-10 kids each team would have fielders at 3rd, short, left field and center field along with a pitcher and would play that right field side hits were an out.
Sorry, nostalgia side track...
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 02:24:36 PM
Hahah, you must hate basketball then, because nowhere near 8/9 guys play offense and defense.
Well if by nowhere 8/9 you mean 10/10 then yes I agree with you.
Quote from: jsglow on July 20, 2018, 02:22:45 PM
So you ask my opinion, I politely give it, and get ridiculed. Nice. Have a great weekend.
(https://i.imgur.com//ycqhM85.gif?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=1200:*)
Quote from: jsglow on July 20, 2018, 02:27:36 PM
And not 30 seconds later you ridicule another guy. WTF?
Uhh. Sorry, it was a joke. I meant most guys don't play good defense. Sorry. Teal implied and I missed the mark. I also didn't mean to ridicule you either, I was at first curious, as you said you prefer the NL but gave no reason, I was curious. I posted the Colon GIF, because well, why would you pass up that opportunity.
Sorry for stirring up the pot. Didn't mean to make such a big thing. I give myself a ban for the weekend. Peace out all, I hope I didn't offend anyone.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 02:20:13 PM
(http://mlb.mlb.com/images/3/4/2/72690342/041914_colon_swings_2_27g6inde.gif)
Nothing more pure than this right here.
Pure entertainment.
Quote from: Jockey on July 20, 2018, 02:12:35 PM
I agree. I don't get where there is more strategy in the NL.
At times you also have to decide if it's worth pulling your pitcher who is cruising, because his spot is up in the order with guys on base and you need runs. You don't have to make these decisions in the AL.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 20, 2018, 03:32:02 PM
At times you also have to decide if it's worth pulling your pitcher who is cruising, because his spot is up in the order with guys on base and you need runs. You don't have to make these decisions in the AL.
Years ago, this had more credence.
Nowadays, the vast majority of pitchers get pulled because teams will not "overwork" their starters. 5 innings is considered a "solid start." A pitcher who works 200 innings - about 6 innings for each of 33 starts - is considered a freakin' iron man nowadays.
"Cruising" into the 8th or 9th inning - or even the 7th - has become quite rare.
Quote@BNightengale
The Milwaukee #Brewers clubhouse says they are cool with Josh Hader now after he cried during apology
Poor wording in this tweet.
Quote from: MU82 on July 20, 2018, 04:05:20 PM
Years ago, this had more credence.
Nowadays, the vast majority of pitchers get pulled because teams will not "overwork" their starters. 5 innings is considered a "solid start." A pitcher who works 200 innings - about 6 innings for each of 33 starts - is considered a freakin' iron man nowadays.
"Cruising" into the 8th or 9th inning - or even the 7th - has become quite rare.
Spot on. Even in the post-season, managers have shown in this era a far greater reliance/trust in their pens and have no qualms pulling a starter pitching well for an opportunity to score additional runs.
The Nelson and Anderson injuries while hitting and running last year put me firmly in the DH camp. Pitchers are too important in my opinion to risk getting hurt on offense.
Also, I would say bunting is anything but routine now. It's painful watching the Brewers try to bunt.
Quote from: RJax55 on July 20, 2018, 04:18:27 PM
Spot on. Even in the post-season, managers have shown in this era a far greater reliance/trust in their pens and have no qualms pulling a starter pitching well for an opportunity to score additional runs.
Right. And in the AL managers don't have to worry about that.
I think if you polled all MLB managers and asked is their significantly more strategy involved in non-DH games, slightly more strategy in non-DH games, equal strategy, slightly more strategy in DH games, or significantly more strategy in DH games you'd get at least 90% saying significantly more strategy involved in non-DH games.
Quote from: cheebs09 on July 20, 2018, 04:20:00 PM
Also, I would say bunting is anything but routine now. It's painful watching the Brewers try to bunt.
Also this. Even position players largely stink at bunting nowadays. Another thing that adds more strategy to the game. If you have first and second and 1 out and the pitcher is coming to the plate you're almost surely going to (attempt to) give up an out and move the 2 runners up to 2nd and 3rd. Or if you have the 8 hole hitter up and a 2-0, 3-0, 3-1 count with 2 down are you giving him the green light in hopes he runs into one or are you giving him the red light to try to clear the pitcher, give up a chance to score that inning, and start at the top of the lineup the next inning?
From little league through at least high school or maybe college, pitchers are usually among the most athletic kid on a team. The fact that pitchers don't even try to hit anymore is shameful(hyperbole) and a waste of athleticism.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 20, 2018, 05:07:13 PM
From little league through at least high school or maybe college, pitchers are usually among the most athletic kid on a team. The fact that pitchers don't even try to hit anymore is shameful(hyperbole) and a waste of athleticism.
This is true. At my high school the top pitcher was almost always the top hitter. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but it's prettt remarkable how their hitting just drops after hitting college or the pros.
Quote from: tower912 on July 19, 2018, 10:44:04 AM
You would hope that his parents would have been teaching him all along that racist, homophobic comments are wrong. 18 year olds are idiots. Most people grow out of it. Some never do.
A lot of 18 year olds share those kind of thoughts and beliefs specifically because of their parents.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 19, 2018, 11:03:07 AM
and yet i would argue that most kids that are truly racists homophobes were molded into that by their parents.
of course hader shouldve known better than to tweet the clearly inappropriate things he did when he was 17 years old. but youre lying to yourself if youre telling people you didnt say insensitive stuff when you were a teenager. how much "better" is it to say "thats so gay!" when you don't like something than it is to say "i hate gay people?" is one more blunt than the other? yup. but if youre like "hey i have nothing against gay people" then why are you saying something is "gay" when you don't like it? are we going to say that every adult who ever said something like that when they were a teenager is a homophobe? youre also lying to yourself if youre telling people youve never quoted an inappropriate song or movie line.
it was stupid. it was inappropriate. it was unacceptable. but to say the "young and immature excuse doesnt play" is wrong. he was 17. it was 7 years ago, probably before he experienced any kind of diversity in his life and probably mostly while he was dicking around being a dumbass teenager.
im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that hes grown as a person over the last 7, almost undoubtedly most shaping, years of his life. and given that before this weekend we never heard anything but how great of a guy he is im guessing he has grown since he was a clearly immature teen.
if some want to lie and say they never said anything insensitive and inappropriate when they were younger and less mature so be it. hader didnt back down or make excuses he owned it and said he screwed up. hopefully hes learned.
You actually graduated from Marquette?
Quote from: tower912 on July 19, 2018, 11:30:35 AM
For some, DUI's at 29 count as youthful indiscretions. For others, unsealed juvenile records of things that may or may not have happened at 14 are reason to not be allowed to pursue a career. IMO, a 17-18 year old saying stupid crap on twitter still counts as a stupid kid. I have frequently discussed with friends, family, and coworkers, the notion that the nature of young people hasn't really changed over the years, just the tools with which they can get in trouble. When most of us were kids, we would do stupid crap and there would be a circle of silence among our friends. Today, the same stupid stuff gets posted on instachatweet and it is accessible to everyone and forever. Kids don't think about long term repercussions. They never have.
An example.... a couple of years ago, at a holiday party thrown by a kid whose parents were out of town, an underage couple decided to have sex in one of the bedrooms. Nothing new here. Teenagers have been having sex since there have been teenagers and sex. One of their friends entered the bedroom and busted them in the middle. Still nothing really new here. But the friend took a picture on his phone and posted it..... making him a child pornographer. Is the friend really a child pornographer? No, he is a dumb kid. But in the eyes of the law, he is now labelled forever.
Hader posted stupid crap while not yet old enough to vote. It makes him a kid who was an immature jerk. By all accounts, he has grown and matured. And he should never go on social media again.
For the sweet love of God, what he tweeted were not just "stupid things".
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 20, 2018, 02:24:36 PM
Hahah, you must hate basketball then, because nowhere near 8/9 guys play offense and defense.
As Jabari Parker says, they don't pay guys to play defense
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 20, 2018, 05:39:28 PM
This is true. At my high school the top pitcher was almost always the top hitter. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but it's prettt remarkable how their hitting just drops after hitting college or the pros.
I umpire a lot of baseball at different levels, and just about every level has the DH now. Some teams don't use it because their pitcher can hit (and I've even seen hs teams use the DH for their second baseman), but mant do. The NL is basically the only DH holdout out there. I think one of the two leagues in Japan plays NL rules too.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 20, 2018, 05:07:13 PM
From little league through at least high school or maybe college, pitchers are usually among the most athletic kid on a team. The fact that pitchers don't even try to hit anymore is shameful(hyperbole) and a waste of athleticism.
Poosays, hey?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 20, 2018, 06:08:59 PM
You actually graduated from Marquette?
quit acting like youre holier than everyone else.
we get it. youve never acted immaturely, youve never said anything inappropriate or offensive, you never grew through your teen years because you were a perfect, mature adult out of the womb.
the question is YOU actually graduated from mu? you never learned the value of forgiveness and you didnt change in your 4 year, 80k+ jesuit education? im sorry you (or your parents) wasted so much money. personal growth was a ginormous reason to attend mu and anybody who does should have changed drastically in their 4 years there. im sorry you didnt. open mindedness is important.
stfu and quit acting like you never made inappropriate juvenile stupid remarks and that nobody changes between the ages of 17 and 24. you come off like an incredible douche.
oh, and youre a freaking liar.
Looks like Hader has some people fooled that you can actually grow and develop between when your'e in high school and when you're a working professional who has been exposed to diversity that he may not have been exposed to before.
QuoteBilly Bean, MLB's first ambassador for inclusion and now a vice president and special assistant to commissioner Rob Manfred, met with Hader for two hours earlier in the day to begin the mandated sensitivity training and talk about participating in diversity initiatives. Bean had never met Hader but came away from that longer-than-planned session convinced that the 24-year-old player is not the same person who posted the vile, repugnant messages seven years earlier.
"I was in D.C. when the news of the twitter situation broke out," Bean said. "My job is to try to provide resources to players that would prevent a situation like this. It was apparent to me, even before I got here, Josh was really struggling with the reality of the high expectations of playing in the big leagues.
"The more I learned, and watching his reaction immediately after the game, with the greatest moment of his career turning 180 degrees, and probably the most frightening moment of his career, when he reached out to (teammate) Lorenzo Cain and tried to take full responsibility for something that happened a long time ago, before he was a professional baseball player, I had a really strong instinct that I would find what I did find today.
"That's a young man who is in a tremendous amount of pain. I sympathize for him tremendously. I was really proud of him today, the way he wanted to convey that he let his teammates down. He wants to repair that more than anything. We all have to remember that he's still basically a rookie. A lot of attention has come his way because he's done such an amazing job with his career so far.
"He was really looking to me for some guidance, mostly to convey that's not who he is. The context of those tweets is tough. But those happened a long time ago. Those were before he played one inning of professional baseball. I was really convinced after a couple of hours together today, much longer than we expected, that his experience as an athlete, in an integrated and diverse environment, has created the person he is today.
"I believe, much like our millennial youth, he forgot about whatever that moment was in his adolescence. Today was the beginning of where I feel Josh will be judged fairly as he carries himself moving forward. He has learned a lot in the last 2 ½ days. We can all sympathize with what he's going through."
After that meeting with Bean, Hader said, "I believe there's a greater path to this that I can give back and help others not do what I did and make the mistakes I've done. We talked about other people and how important it is to respect others.
Asked what he'd like to say to Brewers fans, Hader said, "That this isn't me. I hope that from people I've touched and come across, they know who I truly am. I made mistakes. I'm not perfect. I've grown as a person. Baseball really helped me grow.
"I just have to move on from my mistakes. That's not the person I am."
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 20, 2018, 05:39:28 PM
This is true. At my high school the top pitcher was almost always the top hitter. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but it's prettt remarkable how their hitting just drops after hitting college or the pros.
Just because a kid can hit in high school doesn't mean he will or can become a major-league hitter. Hitting and pitching obviously involve two very different skill sets, and it takes a vast amount of talent and work to become professional quality in either, much less both.
It's like believing that a great NHL forward should also be able to play goal, because, you know, he was the best athlete on his high school team and it's all just hockey anyway.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 20, 2018, 06:07:28 PM
A lot of 18 year olds share those kind of thoughts and beliefs specifically because of their parents.
Agreed. Going through little league and travel baseball parent drama right now and I honestly could get behind the notion that you have to go through classes and get a license before being allowed to bring a kid into the world. A whole load of immature adults out there. As to Hader, sorry VBMG, I see a difference between a 17 year old posting ridiculously stupid stuff versus a celebrated director in his 40's and 50's doing it. Destined to disagree.
Quote from: tower912 on July 20, 2018, 07:15:08 PM
Agreed. Going through little league and travel baseball parent drama right now and I honestly could get behind the notion that you have to go through classes and get a license before being allowed to bring a kid into the world. A whole load of immature adults out there. As to Hader, sorry VBMG, I see a difference between a 17 year old posting ridiculously stupid stuff versus a celebrated director in his 40's and 50's doing it. Destined to disagree.
Imagine if there was a Little League Scoop
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 20, 2018, 06:19:15 PM
I umpire a lot of baseball at different levels, and just about every level has the DH now. Some teams don't use it because their pitcher can hit (and I've even seen hs teams use the DH for their second baseman), but mant do. The NL is basically the only DH holdout out there. I think one of the two leagues in Japan plays NL rules too.
Some 9U tournaments give the option of using a DH for Christ's sake.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 20, 2018, 07:53:30 PM
Imagine if there was a Little League Scoop
It would be a lot like MU Scoop. But more MILFs on Little League Scoop, probably (no offence, Chick).
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 20, 2018, 08:50:55 PM
Some 9U tournaments give the option of using a DH for Christ's sake.
There's some 16" leagues out there where you can use a DH or an extra hitter.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on July 20, 2018, 08:53:15 PM
There's some 16" leagues out there where you can use a DH or an extra hitter.
If you can't hit the meatball, you shouldn't be playing softball.
I believe Jimenez will be called up on July 31st, and make his MLB debut against the Royals that night.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 20, 2018, 08:54:58 PM
If you can't hit the meatball, you shouldn't be playing softball.
More like a designated fielder. There are some dudes who can clear 300 ft but can field worth a lick.
Same old prick tease Brew Crew, aina?
Five walks in 3 innings for Lester? I didn't see it; was he that wild? Just one of those days? He had been so "on" this season.
Quote from: MU82 on July 20, 2018, 10:05:12 PM
Five walks in 3 innings for Lester? I didn't see it; was he that wild? Just one of those days? He had been so "on" this season.
And against the Cardinals no less.
Who haven't hit hardly a lick at all this season.
Guessing it was a bad day for Lester and an especially good one for our heroes.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 20, 2018, 08:50:55 PM
Some 9U tournaments give the option of using a DH for Christ's sake.
That is crazy because I'm sure we all can agree that if a kid can't hit by the age of nine, he should probably just quit baseball rather than just delaying the inevitable with the DH rule.
Towards the DH.
Are a lot of scoopers confusing DH being used with extra hitters in younger leagues? I umpire and coach and never see an actual DH, but do see a lot of leagues allowing either 10 or the entire lineup to bat. I don't think I've ever seen a team use a DH to disclude a 13 year old from hitting.
Quote from: dgies9156 on July 20, 2018, 10:54:49 PM
Guessing it was a bad day for Lester and an especially good one for our heroes.
#BFIB
Quote from: jsglow on July 20, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
Because I do like the double switches and such. I think it's a purer form of the game. Personal preference.
Then you must want two-way players in football too.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 21, 2018, 03:06:13 AM
Towards the DH.
Are a lot of scoopers confusing DH being used with extra hitters in younger leagues? I umpire and coach and never see an actual DH, but do see a lot of leagues allowing either 10 or the entire lineup to bat. I don't think I've ever seen a team use a DH to disclude a 13 year old from hitting.
NFHS (the national high school rules) permits the DH and EHs at some levels. Most travel leagues beyond middle school play AL rules, but they often allow EHs too.
At those levels pitchers are often the best hitters, so the coach won't use the DH anyway, but I have seen it done.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 21, 2018, 07:33:14 AM
Then you must want two-way players in football too.
Nope. Different sport, different rules. No different than the fact that football players can exit/return but baseball players can't. Look, this is a whole 'I like the color blue better than red' argument. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and there's no correct answer. Doesn't need to be.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 21, 2018, 07:33:14 AM
Then you must want two-way players in football too.
I don't. For me its an all or nothing thing. Football everyone is a one way player. In baseball, I like everyone being a two way player.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 20, 2018, 10:42:31 AM
Joey Votto pop ups by year:
2010 - 0
2011 - 1
2012 - 1
2013 - 1
2014 - 1
2015 - 2
2016 - 0
2017 - 1
2018 - 0
Since 2010, Votto has popped it up 7 times. With the same amount of PA, the MLB average player would have popped it up 127 times.
https://twitter.com/MLBRandomStats/status/1020172530840203264
That is crazy.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:17:02 AM
What about if he was 19?
(See where we're going with this?)
What if he was 23, and the best player in the world?
https://twitter.com/MikeTrout/status/109150770775076864
Or maybe people use words in a jockular / joking way that some get and some don't. Communities do this and it used to be no big deal.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 17, 2018, 11:28:43 AM
Sounds like the Dodgers. I'm guessing warriordad is piiiiisssssed.
Wait, no, nevermind. He's a Cubs fan.
As long as it wasn't the Brewers.
49ers fans admitting Tom Brady is the best QB ever means they can't be 49ers fans because Montana used to hold the title, right?
Quote from: jsglow on July 21, 2018, 08:23:16 AM
Nope. Different sport, different rules. No different than the fact that football players can exit/return but baseball players can't. Look, this is a whole 'I like the color blue better than red' argument. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and there's no correct answer. Doesn't need to be.
I was just commenting on your "more pure" argument. There is nothing more or less pure about the DH.
Worst umpire call in the history of baseball? Hard pressed to think of one worse, though this wasn't played in MLB.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/umps-who-made-the-worst-check-swing-call-in-history-of-baseball-suspended-for-rest-of-season/
Armando Gallaraga and and Jim Joyce will always be at the front of the 'Worst Call in History' line.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 21, 2018, 11:00:14 AM
I was just commenting on your "more pure" argument. There is nothing more or less pure about the DH.
Well, except that it makes a HUGE change from Abner Doubleday's original rules. Certainly the biggest of the last 150 years rivaling the 'one bounce out' rule that existed before the invention of mitts in the 1880s. So yeah, 'more pure'. :)
Quote from: #bansultan on July 21, 2018, 11:00:14 AM
I was just commenting on your "more pure" argument. There is nothing more or less pure about the DH.
I don't understand how football having different rules than baseball addresses an argument about the NL rules being more pure than than the AL rules.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 21, 2018, 01:33:23 PM
I don't understand how football having different rules than baseball addresses an argument about the NL rules being more pure than than the AL rules.
What I'm saying is that games change. The idea that everyone who played offense should also play defense isn't "pure." It's just change.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 21, 2018, 02:03:36 PM
What I'm saying is that games change. The idea that everyone who played offense should also play defense isn't "pure." It's just change.
But it's also not a rule. There have been several players in the modern era of football that have played both ways. It's just not customary anymore. Like there's no rule that your halfback or your right guard can't be your field goal kicker. But the Packers won championships in my lifetime that way.
And of course the game changes naturally. Cy Young's professional experience will never be duplicated, not because of any rule but simply because no one would ever use a pitcher like that nowadays. But they 'could' in theory.
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 21, 2018, 11:03:42 AM
Worst umpire call in the history of baseball? Hard pressed to think of one worse, though this wasn't played in MLB.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/umps-who-made-the-worst-check-swing-call-in-history-of-baseball-suspended-for-rest-of-season/
Yes.
Well I guess this was to be expected, after all the saying goes...
...."Haders gonna hate"....
Kind of like ....why were you surprised when...
"Bernie Madoff with your money"
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 21, 2018, 11:03:42 AM
Worst umpire call in the history of baseball? Hard pressed to think of one worse, though this wasn't played in MLB.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/umps-who-made-the-worst-check-swing-call-in-history-of-baseball-suspended-for-rest-of-season/
Nope. As tower pointed out, Jim Joyce blew an easy call that would have been the final out of a perfect game. A perfect game. In MLB.
It's too bad it wasn't a few years later as replay would have corrected the call. On the other hand, this play may have reinforced the need for replay.
Quote from: jsglow on July 21, 2018, 11:44:51 AM
Certainly the biggest of the last 150 years rivaling the 'one bounce out' rule that existed before the invention of mitts in the 1880s. So yeah, 'more pure'. :)
Did the game get "less pure" when they did away with the "one bounce out" rule?
@jcransik
The #Astros and #Cubs are trying to match up prospects with the #Orioles on a Zach Britton deal. Others involved too. Heard the O's would like to wrap it up by early in the week. With Familia, Hand and Herrera having moved, it's ramped up the pace of talks.
Seriously, a standing ovation for Hader?
Embarrassing.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 09:34:07 PM
Seriously, a standing ovation for Hader?
Embarrassing.
lol dude have you just had "josh hader" googled and hit refresh every 5 seconds since tuesday?
hope youve never applauded addison russel
Most national baseball writers have tweeted it. I tend to follow twitter during games.
Bad look Milwaukee.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 08:49:54 PM
@jcransik
The #Astros and #Cubs are trying to match up prospects with the #Orioles on a Zach Britton deal. Others involved too. Heard the O's would like to wrap it up by early in the week. With Familia, Hand and Herrera having moved, it's ramped up the pace of talks.
Yes This is Astros only real need and he is the target
We are hoping the Astros can get this one done. Their starters are no 1, defense is no 1, and relievers actually are holding on ok at no 2...but Giles flaked out and we lack that shut down guy late....a huge key asset in playoffs.
If McCann (DL) cant make it back this year...we may also make a move for another catcher
This Astros team is significantly better than last year but our key foes improved also so there is less notice. All healthy and back in the fall is key too
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 09:38:51 PM
Most national baseball writers have tweeted it. I tend to follow twitter during games.
Bad look Milwaukee.
What would have proposed they do, boo him? Team cheering on their player, no matter the situation, shouldn't be a bad look.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 21, 2018, 09:44:03 PM
What would have proposed they do, boo him? Team cheering on their player, no matter the situation, shouldn't be a bad look.
Does he usually get a standing ovation? If not why did he get one tonight? Because he used to be racist/homophobic but has changed?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 09:45:36 PM
Does he usually get a standing ovation? If not why did he get one tonight? Because he used to be racist/homophobic but has changed?
I don't know if the standing ovation was necessary, but you seem to take exception to the fact the people cheered for him at all. It sounds like you think he should be shunned for life.
I think it's fine to cheer a guy, but a standing O?
Why don't the other players get a standing O for not being racist/homophobic?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 09:38:51 PM
Most national baseball writers have tweeted it. I tend to follow twitter during games.
Bad look Milwaukee.
im sure if he was a cubbie wriggle field wouldve rained down boos upon him.
cubs fan delusions are hilarious. go cheer on addison russell some more bud. talk about a high horse.
yes he gets a standing o. hes the best reliever in baseball and has been one of the most exciting pitchers to watch since coming up last season.
glad your team was in the middle of a 9th inning tie game with their "real" rivals and youre focused on the fan reaction of the "little brother" brewers to josh hader.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 09:53:02 PM
I think it's fine to cheer a guy, but a standing O?
Why don't the other players get a standing O for not being racist/homophobic?
Because they're not all stars on pace for a historically good season. Teams cheering their best players is not exactly a new thing.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 21, 2018, 09:55:08 PM
Yes he gets a standing o. hes the best reliever in baseball and has been one of the most exciting pitchers to watch since coming up last season.
Exactly the problem. Just because he's good he can get away with it.
If Nate Orf makes these comments I'm guessing there's a much different reaction.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 09:57:06 PM
Exactly the problem. Just because he's good he can get away with it.
If Nate Orf makes these comments I'm guessing there's a much different reaction.
lol.
the dude whose favorite team played michael jackson's "beat it" as walk up music for a guy who beat his wife is talking about how bad of a look it is for brewers fans to support their player.
edit: and a team who played "smack my b!tch up" for their closers entrance music after he beat his wife.
classic.
stay classy chicago.
And that fill in DJ was immediatly fired when Cubs fans complained about it.
https://twitter.com/just1nmke/status/1020847900413263872?s=21 (https://twitter.com/just1nmke/status/1020847900413263872?s=21)
Check out the replies.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 10:15:33 PM
https://twitter.com/just1nmke/status/1020847900413263872?s=21 (https://twitter.com/just1nmke/status/1020847900413263872?s=21)
Check out the replies.
ahh yes. twitter. the source of reason.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 21, 2018, 10:25:50 PM
ahh yes. twitter. the source of reason.
Rarely does everyone agree on twitter but everyone here seems to agree a standing O was a bad idea.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 10:26:53 PM
Rarely does everyone agree on twitter but everyone here seems to agree a standing O was a bad idea.
cool.
For what it's worth, there are a lot of Brewers fans that were embarrassed by it as well.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on July 20, 2018, 06:16:56 PM
As Jabari Parker says, they don't pay guys to play defense
Ozzie "The Wizard" Smith might disagree.
HOF -- all time great Cardinal.
Except for one shot off the Dodgers during the playoffs in 1985, Ozzie's offense was somewhat forgettable.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 10:34:55 PM
For what it's worth, there are a lot of Brewers fans that were embarrassed by it as well.
also cool.
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2018/07/david_price_boston_red_sox_lhp_20.html
bad look david.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 21, 2018, 10:51:08 PM
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2018/07/david_price_boston_red_sox_lhp_20.html
bad look david.
Why is it a bad look? He said he doesn't know him and won't pass judgement?
QuotePrice told MassLive.com here Saturday. "I don't know him personally. I've never held a conversation with anybody about him personally. So I don't pass judgment." Price won't advise others around the league how to respond, "I'll let everybody make their own judgment."
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 11:03:09 PM
Why is it a bad look? He said he doesn't know him and won't pass judgement?
right. if you arent willing to call someone you never met a racist homophobe for something they tweeted as a high school teenager 7 years prior its a problem. people dont change between the ages of 17 and 24.
Sorry if I don't believe the guy who sent these tweets when he says he's changed. What's he going to say? "Yup I'm still a racist."
His girlfriend was still tweeting homophobic slurs recently and she also deleted her Twitter account so no, I don't believe he has changed.
And it's not like Hader just made a casual slur in passing (not that that's ok either). He tweeted he hates gay people. He tweeted KKK. Those are pretty big statements to make at any age.
Sure, it's possible he has changed but I have trouble taking a person at their word who tweeted that stuff. I'm making my own judgement as David Price said I should. You are making your judgement and I am disagreeing with it. The only person who truly knows is Hader himself.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 11:36:20 PM
Sorry if I don't believe the guy who sent these tweets when he says he's changed. What's he going to say? "Yup I'm still a racist."
His girlfriend was still tweeting homophobic slurs recently and she also deleted her Twitter account so no, I don't believe he has changed.
And it's not like Hader just made a casual slur in passing (not that that's ok either). He tweeted he hates gay people. He tweeted KKK. Those are pretty big statements to make at any age.
Sure, it's possible he has changed but I have trouble taking a person at their word who tweeted that stuff. I'm making my own judgement as David Price said I should. You are making your judgement and I am disagreeing with it. The only person who truly knows is Hader himself.
if you define 2012, before they ever met, as "recently" then sure you nailed it. that definitely proves that he hasnt changed one bit.
you do realize josh haders 8th inning tonight was a "KKK" right?
dont take it from his teammates or even price who says hes heard hader has changed and is a great guy (you picked a convenient 5% of the article to quote. must be nice to jump at every negative thing posted about the guy and then ignore an article from a completely unbiased, unattached source that doesnt paint him as some awful person) or from billy bean who sat down with him for hours. youve been ALL over this story at every twist and turn the second things have broke. you definitely know more about the guy than anyone involved.
but hey those cubs fans would never cheer a guy like josh hader. proof lies in their booing of addison russell and aroldis chapman!
i look forward to the next set of breaking news on hader from you. i know ill be the first in the loop as long as im on muscoop often enough.
joe maddon's response to the investigation into addison russell's domestic violence:
Quote"These are young people," Maddon said. "We've all been there. We've all been young, making some really dumb mistakes. We've all done the same thing. I don't know exactly what went on. I want to hear about it as it unfolds. But, again, I think the most important thing we do as a parent, as a coach, as a manager is to listen first."
first off, "We've all been there. We've all done the same thing." WTF?! i know i havent hit my wife.
"We've all been young, making some really dumb mistakes." youth is not an excuse for anything is what ive learned here. also if 17 isnt young then 22 certainly isnt young. and hitting your wife isnt just some "dumb mistake."
talk about a bad look. disgusting. and chicago cubs fans cheer for the guy. embarrassing.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 22, 2018, 12:00:11 AM
if you define 2012, before they ever met, as "recently" then sure you nailed it. that definitely proves that he hasnt changed one bit.
you do realize josh haders 8th inning tonight was a "KKK" right?
dont take it from his teammates or even price who says hes heard hader has changed and is a great guy (you picked a convenient 5% of the article to quote. must be nice to jump at every negative thing posted about the guy and then ignore an article from a completely unbiased, unattached source that doesnt paint him as some awful person) or from billy bean who sat down with him for hours. youve been ALL over this story at every twist and turn the second things have broke. you definitely know more about the guy than anyone involved.
but hey those cubs fans would never cheer a guy like josh hader. proof lies in their booing of addison russell and aroldis chapman!
i look forward to the next set of breaking news on hader from you. i know ill be the first in the loop as long as im on muscoop often enough.
Why so repeatedly biased over one small issue?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 21, 2018, 09:53:02 PM
I think it's fine to cheer a guy, but a standing O?
Why don't the other players get a standing O for not being racist/homophobic?
Did you clap for Chapman? If you did this entire point is mute.
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 22, 2018, 12:29:47 AM
Did you clap for Chapman? If you did this entire point is mute.
Did I celebrate when he did good on the field? Yes.
Did I celebrate him when he came back from choking his wife? No.
Several times in this thread I have stated there are bad guys on teams I cheer for. Hell I listed them (see post below). Addison and Arodlis were both listed because they are bad guys.
I am able to acknowledge these people are bad guys off the field. Am I going to cheer when Addison hits a homerun? Yes. Am I going to stand up and show I'm still on his side when he is announced for the first time after cheating on his wife? No.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 17, 2018, 11:40:45 PM
I have no problem admitting athletes on teams I cheer for can be bad people.
Sosa used PEDs and corked his bat.
Russell cheated on his wife.
Mark Grace is an alcoholic.
Michael Jordan has a gambling problem.
Aroldis Chapman likely choked his wife/gf.
Bobby Hull beat his wife.
Walter Payton cheated on his wife.
Patrick Sharp cheated on his wife.
Patrick Kane... God knows what he's done.
Milton Bradley I don't even know where to start.
Not sure why Sosa using PEDs excuses Hader's comments.
Again, I don't understand why these guys being bad people excuses what Hader did.
If a Badger recruit sent the tweets Hader did, this board would be tearing the kid apart. No one would say he's just a foolish 17 year old.
John Rocker got a standing ovation too, so.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 22, 2018, 01:35:11 AM
If a Badger recruit sent the tweets Hader did, this board would be tearing the kid apart. No one would say he's just a foolish 17 year old.
sure if you want to make an apples to oranges comparison.
if a uw recruit tweeted these things yesterday there would be an issue. if he tweeted them 7 years ago? meh. things change for all but mm and vbmg in 7 years.
i don't really care who the guy plays for. mu, uw, brewers, cubs. glad it makes a difference to you.
if someone went back to jake thomas's twitter from 7 years ago only a couple people might pretend they were too mature to make inappropriate comments or quote inappropriate lyrics when they were high school teenagers. more power to you for being able to stick to your lie. no skin off my back, and if you can sleep better at night then good for you. most people grow as a person between the time theyre 17 and the time theyre 24. you and vbmg have made it clear you never needed to grow.
we get it. people dont change from ages 17-24. hader is a racist homophobe. theres no way hader gets anything but a chorus of boos if he was a cub and was entering the game at wriggly.
can we move on now that we know the cubs are the morally superior organization with the morally superior fanbase?
at least until the next story breaks on hader. i know mm won't miss posting it here for us asap.
The standing ovation was dumb. He either made a brave comeback from being a racist 7 years ago or just doing stupid things 7 years ago.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 22, 2018, 06:28:36 AM
John Rocker got a standing ovation too, so.
15 years ago and in the south, so.......
Quote from: mu03eng on July 22, 2018, 07:50:27 AM
15 years ago and in the south, so.......
Just saying fans do dumb things.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 22, 2018, 07:56:50 AM
Just saying fans do dumb things.
Fair, I wouldn't have done a standing O but by the same token I think you want you want to support the young man if he is truly reformed or reforming.
What Hader twitter has no place in acceptable society but it also doesn't make him an irredeemable villain
Let's face it, a good portion of the crowd was cheering because they thought the PC crowd was overreacting to something he did when he was a kid.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 22, 2018, 09:18:24 AM
Let's face it, a good portion of the crowd was cheering because they thought the PC crowd was overreacting to something he did when he was a kid.
Good point. Probably true.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 22, 2018, 09:18:24 AM
Let's face it, a good portion of the crowd was cheering because they thought the PC crowd was overreacting to something he did when he was a kid.
Unfortunately.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 22, 2018, 01:35:11 AM
If a Badger recruit sent the tweets Hader did, this board would be tearing the kid apart. No one would say he's just a foolish 17 year old.
No, but if we learned a teenage Josh Gasser made these remarks seven years ago and has since been a solid citizen who's shown no inclination toward those views, I suspect many of us would have the same reaction we're having with Hader's tweets.
https://twitter.com/SBNation/status/1021042666837094400?s=19
Hader absolutely owned up to his actions and didn't attempt to bullchit the issue or throw anyone under the bus. I thought he handled the entire incident remarkedbly well and feel fans found that refreshing and truthful from today's athlete.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 22, 2018, 09:18:24 AM
Let's face it, a good portion of the crowd was cheering because they thought the PC crowd was overreacting to something he did when he was a kid.
I can only speak for myself and I wasn't at the game (and wasn't even watching so didn't even know about it before coming on Scoop) but I personally am rooting for him more now because from everything that's been said he's sincerely sorry for what he did. His stupidity was exposed for the world to see. 99.9% of the world is not put into that situation. Of course he can only blame himself. But as 4never said, he's done nothing but blame himself. I root for people to better themselves. Some people here don't think it's possible to do that. I think it's very possible and everyone who's talked about Hader since Tuesday, including some people with zero connection to Hader or the Brewers, have expressed the same thing.
I don't even think the response has been PC. I think all sides have handled it very appropriately. Many Brewers expressed that there is no excusing what was said but also said that's not the person they've come to know. The Brewers and the MLB decided against suspending him but have required sensitivity training. Hader hasn't tried to hide from anything and had faced the media even when he's had the option to skip his media availability and before he could be coached up by a PR person.
He'll be booed on the road and he should be. But he's responded as well as you can so far and hopefully he can be an example for kids on a number of issues (obviously the problem with comments like that but also the danger of posting stupid thoughts on social media).
The fact that the whole brewer team came to the Hader presser in support opened the door for the fans to give an ovation. If the players shunned Hader, the fan response would have been different.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 22, 2018, 09:52:33 AM
Hader absolutely owned up to his actions and didn't attempt to bullchit the issue or throw anyone under the bus. I thought he handled the entire incident remarkedbly well and feel fans found that refreshing and truthful from today's athlete.
Did the Brewers' fans give Ryan Braun and standing O upon his exile? No, as he is a lying sack of sheet. Hader owned up for stupid comments and the fans and his teammates rewarded his redemption. Internet Justice is trending toward overboard.
Yeah buttda $8/hr FedEx dude wuz a Cubs fan doe, sew he had a motive, hey?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 22, 2018, 10:29:59 AM
Did the Brewers' fans give Ryan Braun and standing O upon his exile? No, as he is a lying sack of sheet. Hader owned up for stupid comments and the fans and his teammates rewarded his redemption. Internet Justice is trending toward overboard.
Yup.
Anybody who thinks the response would've been any different in any other stadium is kidding themselves.
Haudricourt's tweet response... https://twitter.com/Haudricourt/status/1021051233984040960 (https://twitter.com/Haudricourt/status/1021051233984040960)... to this Deadspin article... https://deadspin.com/giving-a-guy-who-was-racist-online-a-standing-ovation-t-1827785357 (https://deadspin.com/giving-a-guy-who-was-racist-online-a-standing-ovation-t-1827785357)... really pissed me off.
The article is very evenhanded, explains its rationale, and actually gives Brewers fans the benefit of the doubt for a standing ovation that probably wasn't the best look. And yet here comes bumbly old Haudricourt, using the platform of his access-merchant position as the Brewers' beat writer to pick out the one clearly exaggerated line to misrepresent the whole argument. He sucks enough when he's being grumpy to fans and adding no real insight other than the direct quotes from Counsell and Stearns, but when he obtusely covers the biggest social issue of the Brewers season in bad faith, its - at best - horrendous journalism.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 22, 2018, 11:28:55 AM
Yup.
Anybody who thinks the response would've been any different in any other stadium is kidding themselves.
Yeah this is accurate.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 22, 2018, 10:29:59 AM
Did the Brewers' fans give Ryan Braun and standing O upon his exile? No, as he is a lying sack of sheet.
This is literally the opposite of what happened.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2012409-ryan-braun-gets-standing-ovation-in-first-at-bat-after-returning-from-suspension (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2012409-ryan-braun-gets-standing-ovation-in-first-at-bat-after-returning-from-suspension)
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 22, 2018, 09:47:30 AM
Unfortunately.
It happens. Is it really that different than at award shows when people are standing for Harvey or Roman for years? Honestly, that is probably worse as this example is a kid who was a teenager. Let us hope he learns from it and is a changed person.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 22, 2018, 10:29:59 AM
Did the Brewers' fans give Ryan Braun and standing O upon his exile? No, as he is a lying sack of sheet. Hader owned up for stupid comments and the fans and his teammates rewarded his redemption. Internet Justice is trending toward overboard.
But they did give him a standing ovation when he first came back.
https://www.youtube.com/v/D1q1eKByCoE
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/03/31/ryan-braun-standing-ovation-miller-park-opening-day-biogenesis-suspension/7121503/
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/video-ryan-braun-gets-standing-ovation-in-first-at-bat-of-2014/
http://tv5.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/10704083/ryan-braun-milwaukee-brewers-gets-standing-ovation-return-65-game-suspension
https://www.sbnation.com/2014/4/1/5570594/ryan-braun-ovation-brewers-fans
I'd like to hear someone compare/contrast Hader and the NFL kneeling. You can throw in Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, etc if you want
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 22, 2018, 09:52:33 AM
Hader absolutely owned up to his actions and didn't attempt to bullchit the issue or throw anyone under the bus. I thought he handled the entire incident remarkedbly well and feel fans found that refreshing and truthful from today's athlete.
Please speak English, oon'a'a'a?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 22, 2018, 10:48:09 AM
Yeah buttda $8/hr FedEx dude wuz a Cubs fan doe, sew he had a motive, hey?
Dat's morr betters
Quote from: Pakuni on July 22, 2018, 09:49:52 AM
No, but if we learned a teenage Josh Gasser made these remarks seven years ago and has since been a solid citizen who's shown no inclination toward those views, I suspect many of us would have the same reaction we're having with Hader's tweets.
Don't forget ... GaSSer was DeKKKer's teammate!
Quote from: wadesworld on July 22, 2018, 10:04:27 AM
I can only speak for myself and I wasn't at the game (and wasn't even watching so didn't even know about it before coming on Scoop) but I personally am rooting for him more now because from everything that's been said he's sincerely sorry for what he did. His stupidity was exposed for the world to see. 99.9% of the world is not put into that situation. Of course he can only blame himself. But as 4never said, he's done nothing but blame himself. I root for people to better themselves. Some people here don't think it's possible to do that. I think it's very possible and everyone who's talked about Hader since Tuesday, including some people with zero connection to Hader or the Brewers, have expressed the same thing.
I don't even think the response has been PC. I think all sides have handled it very appropriately. Many Brewers expressed that there is no excusing what was said but also said that's not the person they've come to know. The Brewers and the MLB decided against suspending him but have required sensitivity training. Hader hasn't tried to hide from anything and had faced the media even when he's had the option to skip his media availability and before he could be coached up by a PR person.
He'll be booed on the road and he should be. But he's responded as well as you can so far and hopefully he can be an example for kids on a number of issues (obviously the problem with comments like that but also the danger of posting stupid thoughts on social media).
He owned up to tweeting things seven years ago. He didn't save the world.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 22, 2018, 04:29:28 PM
He owned up to tweeting things seven years ago. He didn't save the world.
Agreed. That's kind of the point. It was 7 years ago. He was a high school teenager.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 22, 2018, 04:47:25 PM
Agreed. That's kind of the point. It was 7 years ago. He was a high school teenager.
Right which means giving him a standing ovation was over the top.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 20, 2018, 06:30:34 PM
quit acting like youre holier than everyone else.
we get it. youve never acted immaturely, youve never said anything inappropriate or offensive, you never grew through your teen years because you were a perfect, mature adult out of the womb.
the question is YOU actually graduated from mu? you never learned the value of forgiveness and you didnt change in your 4 year, 80k+ jesuit education? im sorry you (or your parents) wasted so much money. personal growth was a ginormous reason to attend mu and anybody who does should have changed drastically in their 4 years there. im sorry you didnt. open mindedness is important.
stfu and quit acting like you never made inappropriate juvenile stupid remarks and that nobody changes between the ages of 17 and 24. you come off like an incredible douche.
oh, and youre a freaking liar.
No, I actually didn't say anything racist or homophobic at that age. I knew better. If you find that so incredibly hard to believe I feel sorry for you and the type of people you must have spent your time with.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 22, 2018, 06:00:54 PM
Right which means giving him a standing ovation was over the top.
Wasn't the standing ovation related to the kid having to go through this stuff and the apology he gave? Not over what happened 7 years ago, but what happened this week.
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 22, 2018, 06:09:48 PM
Wasn't the standing ovation related to the kid having to go through this stuff and the apology he gave? Not over what happened 7 years ago, but what happened this week.
Oh yeah. He went though so much.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 21, 2018, 09:38:08 PM
lol dude have you just had "josh hader" googled and hit refresh every 5 seconds since tuesday?
hope youve never applauded addison russel
Adultery vs hateful racist and homophobic comments are on the same level for you, huh?
And no, Russell did not receive an ovation the next game he played after that news came out.
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 22, 2018, 06:09:48 PM
Wasn't the standing ovation related to the kid having to go through this stuff and the apology he gave? Not over what happened 7 years ago, but what happened this week.
The stuff he brought on himself?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:08:29 PM
No, I actually didn't say anything racist or homophobic at that age. I knew better. If you find that so incredibly hard to believe I feel sorry for you and the type of people you must have spent your time with.
you should go back to school and get a degree that actually means something then. you are clearly way too good of a human to have only received a degree from the same place as a scumbag like me.
ill help you narrow it down. the only two schools i know that are as conceited and self-righteous as you are uw and notre dame. youre too big of a square for uw, so maybe consider heading to nd for a degree that is up to your standards.
lying prick.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:14:04 PM
Adultery vs hateful racist and homophobic comments are on the same level for you, huh?
And no, Russell did not receive an ovation the next game he played after that news came out.
somebody as amazing of a person as you are defending a wife beater. that makes sense.
ill take a juvenile making juvenile stupid ass remarks over a 22 year old beating his wife to a divorce. and over infidelity.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 22, 2018, 06:15:05 PM
The stuff he brought on himself?
we get it. you think cubs fans would've rained boos upon him. whatever you need to do to help yourself sleep at night.
any further updates on the story?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 22, 2018, 12:29:47 AM
Did you clap for Chapman? If you did this entire point is mute.
Chapman did not receive an ovation in his first appearance after the trade. There was a lot of concern from the fan base after that acquisition.
And it's "moot".
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:08:29 PM
No, I actually didn't say anything racist or homophobic at that age. I knew better. If you find that so incredibly hard to believe I feel sorry for you and the type of people you must have spent your time with.
You never said anything along those lines? For example, "that's so happy" where you can substitute the word happy for a short word that begins with G and ends in Y. Saturday Night Live, movie after movie (Adam Sandler comes to mind), tv shows, comedians were still using those bits as recently as a few years ago, hard pressed to see how anyone over the age of 20 didn't say something like that. 40 year old Virgin, Wedding Singer, I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry a few examples. How about you run like a girl when told to a guy? Or you are such a P word to a guy. Don't all those fit into the same box these days? I do find that hard to believe not because you aren't a good person, but because of pop culture and how sayings like that become so immersive.
Good for you if you avoided them. A rarity.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 22, 2018, 12:12:21 AM
joe maddon's response to the investigation into addison russell's domestic violence:
first off, "We've all been there. We've all done the same thing." WTF?! i know i havent hit my wife.
"We've all been young, making some really dumb mistakes." youth is not an excuse for anything is what ive learned here. also if 17 isnt young then 22 certainly isnt young. and hitting your wife isnt just some "dumb mistake."
talk about a bad look. disgusting. and chicago cubs fans cheer for the guy. embarrassing.
Actually this was his quote below before what you posted. Not surprising you'd omit that.
"I don't react, because I don't know anything yet," Maddon said Thursday after Russell released a statement through the team that denied any allegation he abused his wife, Melisa, who accused him of infidelity in an Instagram post. "I'm really a person who likes to believe I listen without judgment. I try not to jump to conclusions.
"In a situation like this where it's very easy to be accusatory, I choose not to be. I choose to listen. And I don't make up my mind about anything until I've gathered all the facts.
"So that's where I'm at with this – I don't know enough to know one way or another how I feel about it. Except just keep an open mind, listen to what's going on and then make our determinations."
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:19:05 PM
Chapman did not receive an ovation in his first appearance after the trade. There was a lot of concern from the fan base after that acquisition.
And it's "moot".
Actually, yes we did.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-aroldis-chapman-dominant-debut-cubs-spt-0728-20160727-story.html
"The Wrigley Field fans, however, supplied enough in giving Chapman a standing ovation as he took the mound before throwing a 101 mph fastball on his first pitch as a Cub to Jose Abreu before striking him out on a slider."
https://www.youtube.com/v/b3w178KbGKU
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 22, 2018, 06:25:08 PM
Actually, yes we did.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-aroldis-chapman-dominant-debut-cubs-spt-0728-20160727-story.html
"The Wrigley Field fans, however, supplied enough in giving Chapman a standing ovation as he took the mound before throwing a 101 mph fastball on his first pitch as a Cub to Jose Abreu before striking him out on a slider."
https://www.youtube.com/v/b3w178KbGKU
doesnt fit the agenda of cubs fans. and a 17 year old tweeting completely inappropriate things is way worse than a grown man beating his wife. duh.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:23:19 PM
Actually this was his quote below before what you posted. Not surprising you'd omit that.
"I don't react, because I don't know anything yet," Maddon said Thursday after Russell released a statement through the team that denied any allegation he abused his wife, Melisa, who accused him of infidelity in an Instagram post. "I'm really a person who likes to believe I listen without judgment. I try not to jump to conclusions.
"In a situation like this where it's very easy to be accusatory, I choose not to be. I choose to listen. And I don't make up my mind about anything until I've gathered all the facts.
"So that's where I'm at with this – I don't know enough to know one way or another how I feel about it. Except just keep an open mind, listen to what's going on and then make our determinations."
and...?
im glad hes not judging russell. hes also talking about a guy who beat his wife and saying weve all been young and weve all been in that situation.
i certainly havent. i cant imagine someone spewing their holiness at ever chance he gets to like you do has.
but i guess youth cant be used to excuse inappropriate tweets but can be used to excuse beating a woman. nice.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 22, 2018, 06:16:31 PM
you should go back to school and get a degree that actually means something then. you are clearly way too good of a human to have only received a degree from the same place as a scumbag like me.
ill help you narrow it down. the only two schools i know that are as conceited and self-righteous as you are uw and notre dame. youre too big of a square for uw, so maybe consider heading to nd for a degree that is up to your standards.
lying prick.
somebody as amazing of a person as you are defending a wife beater. that makes sense.
ill take a juvenile making juvenile stupid ass remarks over a 22 year old beating his wife to a divorce. and over infidelity.
So Russell is guilty of domestic violence based on a claim on social media, yet nothing ever came of it?
And I'm self-righteous because you don't believe that I've never said something racist or homophobic, such as "I hate gay people"? I never said I was perfect or haven't done or said stupid things. Racism and homophobia are far beyond that.
You're an extremely stupid person.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:30:48 PM
So Russell is guilty of domestic violence based on a claim on social media, yet nothing ever came of it?
And I'm self-righteous because you don't believe that I've never said something racist or homophobic, such as "I hate gay people"? I never said I was perfect or haven't done or said stupid things. Racism and homophobia are far beyond that.
You're an extremely stupid person.
youre self righteous because your go to phrase anytime you disagree with someone is "you actually have a degree/graduated from mu?!"
yeah. i did. go get a degree from somewhere that only smart, ethical people like you can get into if you don't like it condescending douche.
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 22, 2018, 06:22:06 PM
You never said anything along those lines? For example, "that's so happy" where you can substitute the word happy for a short word that begins with G and ends in Y. Saturday Night Live, movie after movie (Adam Sandler comes to mind), tv shows, comedians were still using those bits as recently as a few years ago, hard pressed to see how anyone over the age of 20 didn't say something like that. 40 year old Virgin, Wedding Singer, I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry a few examples. How about you run like a girl when told to a guy? Or you are such a P word to a guy. Don't all those fit into the same box these days? I do find that hard to believe not because you aren't a good person, but because of pop culture and how sayings like that become so immersive.
Good for you if you avoided them. A rarity.
None of what you just posted is any any way equivalent to hateful racist or homophobic speech.
I definitely can have a foul mouth but to me there's a huge difference between some of those examples and this situation.
For example, if he had only quoted some movies or songs that's immature but it happens. This was more.
Maybe the dude has changed but I'm certainly skeptical.
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 22, 2018, 06:25:08 PM
Actually, yes we did.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-aroldis-chapman-dominant-debut-cubs-spt-0728-20160727-story.html
"The Wrigley Field fans, however, supplied enough in giving Chapman a standing ovation as he took the mound before throwing a 101 mph fastball on his first pitch as a Cub to Jose Abreu before striking him out on a slider."
https://www.youtube.com/v/b3w178KbGKU
I was wrong and that was not a good look.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 22, 2018, 06:33:08 PM
youre self righteous because your go to phrase anytime you disagree with someone is "you actually have a degree/graduated from mu?!"
yeah. i did. go get a degree from somewhere that only smart, ethical people like you can get into if you don't like it condescending douche.
No, I just said that to you because you don't seem particularly sharp.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:35:43 PM
None of what you just posted is any any way equivalent to hateful racist or homophobic speech.
I definitely can have a foul mouth but to me there's a huge difference between some of those examples and this situation.
For example, if he had only quoted some movies or songs that's immature but it happens. This was more.
Maybe the dude has changed but I'm certainly skeptical.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:38:43 PM
No, I just said that to you because you don't seem particularly sharp.
the irony of you telling someone they "dont seem particularly sharp" right after you say that the phrase "thats (or youre) so gay" is "is any any way equivalent to hateful racist or homophobic speech" (i assume it was a typo and you meant "is not in any way...") is too good.
to be quite honest i find it more concerning that an adult today (who pretends to be smarter and a better person than all others) would claim that the phrase "thats (or youre) so gay" is not homophobic than it is a guy tweeted homophobic things when he was in high school 7 years ago.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 22, 2018, 01:35:11 AM
If a Badger recruit sent the tweets Hader did, this board would be tearing the kid apart. No one would say he's just a foolish 17 year old.
If a 17 year old Badger recruit tweeted stuff like this when he was 10 I would be even more forgiving towards him than I am being towards Hader.
Similarly, if 24 year old Hader tweeted this crap last week, I would be treating him more harshly than the theoretical 17 year old Badger recruit.
This comes down to whether or not you believe if Hader's beliefs have changed over the last 7 years. I can understand someone who is skeptical and I can understand someone who believes. I am also not surprised that it seems that line has been drawn along team lines. Brewer fans seem to believe Hader and Cubs fans seem to be skeptical.
Something I tell people all the time, there are very few bonafide racists in the world. However, everyone says, does, and thinks racist things, for most people that happens every day. The best thing we can do when we are called on it is own it, apologize for it, learn from it, and do better from then on. Hader has at least the first two. We will see if he does the second two.
I'd like to think we can all agree that the worst person in baseball is this Cubs fan.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1021147509849305089
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:19:05 PM
Chapman did not receive an ovation in his first appearance after the trade. There was a lot of concern from the fan base after that acquisition.
And it's "moot".
Piniella used to say "mute" for "moot" all the time.
Cracked me up every time.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 22, 2018, 09:34:17 PM
I'd like to think we can all agree that the worst person in baseball is this Cubs fan.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1021147509849305089
Agreed!
Everything turned out ok though.
https://twitter.com/cubs/status/1021134802580393989?s=21
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 22, 2018, 06:19:05 PM
Chapman did not receive an ovation in his first appearance after the trade. There was a lot of concern from the fan base after that acquisition.
And it's "moot".
ehhhh, he totally did. I was one of the people. But I dont care about players personal lives at all, I care only for what they do in the field.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 22, 2018, 09:34:17 PM
I'd like to think we can all agree that the worst person in baseball is this Cubs fan.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1021147509849305089
I guess he's not the worst after all. Several people are saying he helped that kid get a ball earlier in the game. That's what the ball next to the Javy ball is. TV just caught him keeping the second one for himself.
Not saying the Chapman ovation was great optics, but that was his first game with a new team. It wasn't his first game back from suspension. He'd been playing for months at that point.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 23, 2018, 12:18:55 AM
Not saying the Chapman ovation was great optics, but that was his first game with a new team. It wasn't his first game back from suspension. He'd been playing for months at that point.
Man, give it up. No matter what team Hader played for, if events played out the exact same way, any fanbase, Cubs included, would have given him the same treatment. You can absolutely say that is problematic, wrong, concerning, etc....and I wouldn't even disagree with you....but any attempt to try and prove your fanbase wouldn't do the same thing is misguided at best.
Let's acknowledge that a fair few of us would sell our soul and morals for a title. I have no doubt most fan bases would be mysteriously forgiving of Chapman if he was closing for them en route to a title. Unfortunately the world we live in.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 23, 2018, 12:18:55 AM
Not saying the Chapman ovation was great optics, but that was his first game with a new team. It wasn't his first game back from suspension. He'd been playing for months at that point.
Oh. Okay.
Go wife beaters!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 23, 2018, 12:18:55 AM
Not saying the Chapman ovation was great optics, but that was his first game with a new team. It wasn't his first game back from suspension. He'd been playing for months at that point.
Three times in one post you justify a standing ovation for him.
It's pretty stupid for fans to give a standing O in support of a player who did something idiotic that hurt those around him. However, fans do stupid things all the time and it's never a good look. This isn't specific to one team or one city. It just so happens that it was Brewers fans looking like fools this time. Give it a month or two and another fanbase will make themselves look just as ignorant if not more so.
No, I agree. It was a bad look for Cubs fans there. I'm just saying it was a different circumstance.
Why have there been numerous articles criticizing the Brewers fans for giving Hader an ovation but none on the Cubs fans giving Chapman an ovation? Because it was a very different circumstance.
I read a tweet that it started as a smattering of applause and then there were audible boos. The ovation started after the boos to drown them out.
I'd like to think of it as showing support for someone who is working through a tough time and improving themselves as a person. I'm hoping it wasn't any sort of support for what he said or people thinking it was blown out of proportion.
I have no idea if that's what the cheers were for or Hader really is a changed person, but I guess I can hope.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2018, 08:33:29 AM
It's pretty stupid for fans to give a standing O in support of a player who did something idiotic that hurt those around him. However, fans do stupid things all the time and it's never a good look. This isn't specific to one team or one city. It just so happens that it was Brewers fans looking like fools this time. Give it a month or two and another fanbase will make themselves look just as ignorant if not more so.
This is the correct take.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 22, 2018, 06:30:38 PM
doesnt fit the agenda of cubs fans. and a 17 year old tweeting completely inappropriate things is way worse than a grown man beating his wife. duh.
I am a Cubs fan and admitted we did it, your blanket statement is not correct.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 22, 2018, 09:28:25 PMSomething I tell people all the time, there are very few bonafide racists in the world. However, everyone says, does, and thinks racist things, for most people that happens every day. The best thing we can do when we are called on it is own it, apologize for it, learn from it, and do better from then on. Hader has at least the first two. We will see if he does the second two.
I think there are quite a few more than I would have believed a few years ago.
Quote from: WarriorDad on July 23, 2018, 09:16:12 AM
I am a Cubs fan and admitted we did it, your blanket statement is not correct.
This literally made chuckle.
Tony Gwynn had more 4-hit games than 2-strikeout games in his career.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on July 23, 2018, 10:52:15 AM
Tony Gwynn had more 4-hit games than 2-strikeout games in his career.
That's just insane.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on July 23, 2018, 10:52:15 AM
Tony Gwynn had more 4-hit games than 2-strikeout games in his career.
Read this a couple years ago. I think playing in San Diego and in the shadow of the steroid induced power numbers made him overlooked. It's a shame.
https://www.mlb.com/news/19-facts-about-the-career-of-tony-gwynn/c-177069734
Brewers now under 10% on 538 to win the division. Serious question: How much are you willing to give up now to increase your chances of winning the 1 game playoff?
Quote from: MUDPT on July 23, 2018, 11:42:47 AM
Brewers now under 10% on 538 to win the division. Serious question: How much are you willing to give up now to increase your chances of winning the 1 game playoff?
For rentals? Next to nothing. This team just has too many holes to make a run.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on July 23, 2018, 10:52:15 AM
Tony Gwynn had more 4-hit games than 2-strikeout games in his career.
Wow. That's great. What a legend.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 23, 2018, 11:49:22 AM
For rentals? Next to nothing. This team just has too many holes to make a run.
Do you guys remember the Pirates of 5-6 years ago? A few really good teams. Runners up in the division what, 3-4 years in a row? They had a great young core to build around. McCutch, Marte, Polanco, Cole, Neil Walker. They had some great relievers on board, Justin Wilson, Tony Watson, Mark Melancon.
They had some real good talent.
Won 90 games a couple years if I remember correctly. Not to mention, they had a very highly regarded farm system just stocked with top tier talent.
Never got out of a wild card round though. They had the assets to make a move. To get someone that could have made a difference mid-way through a season. They never did. They were scared to part with prospects. They could have swung a deal for pretty much any player traded at that time. Some of the guys that were traded at the deadline we guys like, Cueto, Hamels, Cespedes, Price, Tulo among a whole bunch of others. Do those guys make a difference? Who knows. Would it have hurt the team to lose someone like Meadows or Glasnow or Tallion? Sure. But maybe they would have won a World Series. Yeah, the Royals blew up their farm during their run and thye are terrible now and will be for a while most likely. I bet that is a trade off they are ok with, and Pirate fans would do in a heartbeat.
@Ken_Rosenthal
#Brewers continue to cast wide net in search for upgrades, sources tell me and @ByRobertMurray. They are among the teams pursuing #Orioles' Britton and also considering #Rays' Archer. Had extensive discussions with #Orioles on Machado; know which prospects O's like.
@Ken_Rosenthal
Heard two interesting things today that give insight into how creatively teams think at deadline. One club - I'm guessing #Brewers - asked #Twins about getting BOTH Dozier and Escobar. Likewise, some teams are asking #Orioles about getting Bundy or Gausman along with Britton.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 23, 2018, 12:15:29 PM
Do you guys remember the Pirates of 5-6 years ago? A few really good teams. Runners up in the division what, 3-4 years in a row? They had a great young core to build around. McCutch, Marte, Polanco, Cole, Neil Walker. They had some great relievers on board, Justin Wilson, Tony Watson, Mark Melancon.
They had some real good talent.
Won 90 games a couple years if I remember correctly. Not to mention, they had a very highly regarded farm system just stocked with top tier talent.
Never got out of a wild card round though. They had the assets to make a move. To get someone that could have made a difference mid-way through a season. They never did. They were scared to part with prospects. They could have swung a deal for pretty much any player traded at that time. Some of the guys that were traded at the deadline we guys like, Cueto, Hamels, Cespedes, Price, Tulo among a whole bunch of others. Do those guys make a difference? Who knows. Would it have hurt the team to lose someone like Meadows or Glasnow or Tallion? Sure. But maybe they would have won a World Series. Yeah, the Royals blew up their farm during their run and thye are terrible now and will be for a while most likely. I bet that is a trade off they are ok with, and Pirate fans would do in a heartbeat.
In 2013 they did win the Wild Card game, but lost in the division series.
But I do get your point. I mean the Brewers traded top prospects in both the Sabathia and Greinke deals and I think you would be hard pressed to find many Brewer fans who thought those weren't good moves at the time.
Furthermore a lot of prospects don't end up panning out. (Matt LaPorta anyone?) So the risk may not be as high as advertised.
It depends on what you're getting back. For a Machado level rental? Sure, I'd give up a top prospect. He makes a ginormous difference and turns a top heavy lineup into a scary lineup. For a Dozier level rental? I'm not giving up anything big. He does help no doubt, but there are still too many holes to do anything other than get lucky in the Playoffs, which is possible but I don't think it's worth the risk.
I'd much rather trade higher level prospects for even a guy who's underperforming but also affordable under team control like Archer. With a lineup that has so many holes (2B, SS, C, RF - maybe Thames and Braun can provide some production and remove that from the list, plus the pitcher spot), you're not going to a World Series, especially when your pitching staff is at absolute best Nelson (don't think so), Garra, Chacin, and Anderson. Burnes, Suter, Davies all available to start in place of Nelson. You can get away with a lineup with holes if you have a staff filled with aces (Mets staff when healthy) or a staff of the Brewers quality when you have a stacked lineup. The Brewers don't have either right now. They have a World Series caliber bullpen and then an average lineup and an average rotation.
I'd rather add Archer in exchange for some prospects and go after a quality 2B in free agency. Even if Arcia's bat doesn't come around he provides top level defense and you can have Saladino around as a bat at SS as well. If you go into 2019 with most of the bullpen back, add a quality 2B, and have a rotation of Nelson, Archer, Anderson, Chacin, and Garra with Suter and Davies as depth you can legitimately compete in the NL, especially if Machado goes to the Yankees.
Dozier is pretty good.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 23, 2018, 03:04:29 PM
It depends on what you're getting back. For a Machado level rental? Sure, I'd give up a top prospect. He makes a ginormous difference and turns a top heavy lineup into a scary lineup. For a Dozier level rental? I'm not giving up anything big. He does help no doubt, but there are still too many holes to do anything other than get lucky in the Playoffs, which is possible but I don't think it's worth the risk.
I'd much rather trade higher level prospects for even a guy who's underperforming but also affordable under team control like Archer. With a lineup that has so many holes (2B, SS, C, RF - maybe Thames and Braun can provide some production and remove that from the list, plus the pitcher spot), you're not going to a World Series, especially when your pitching staff is at absolute best Nelson (don't think so), Garra, Chacin, and Anderson. Burnes, Suter, Davies all available to start in place of Nelson. You can get away with a lineup with holes if you have a staff filled with aces (Mets staff when healthy) or a staff of the Brewers quality when you have a stacked lineup. The Brewers don't have either right now. They have a World Series caliber bullpen and then an average lineup and an average rotation.
I'd rather add Archer in exchange for some prospects and go after a quality 2B in free agency. Even if Arcia's bat doesn't come around he provides top level defense and you can have Saladino around as a bat at SS as well. If you go into 2019 with most of the bullpen back, add a quality 2B, and have a rotation of Nelson, Archer, Anderson, Chacin, and Garra with Suter and Davies as depth you can legitimately compete in the NL, especially if Machado goes to the Yankees.
I agree with all of this, except I believe if you are good enough to make the playoffs, you can win the World Series. Anything can happen once you get there. The problem is if you want to chance it on the one game Wild Card game.
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1021484765902450690
Almost need to move for another starting pitcher now.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 23, 2018, 03:13:03 PM
Dozier is pretty good.
Also notoriously a second half player. His career OPS is .60 higher in the second half than the first. Whether Escobar or Duke or Rodney, that may be a move worth it for the Brewers.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 23, 2018, 03:18:19 PM
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1021484765902450690
Almost need to move for another starting pitcher now.
Seems like whenever the forearm is involved, it leads to Tommy John.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 23, 2018, 03:18:19 PM
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1021484765902450690
Almost need to move for another starting pitcher now.
Would explain the meatballs he was serving up through his 3 innings yesterday.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 23, 2018, 03:13:03 PM
Dozier is pretty good.
He's very good. I'd be very happy to get him. But I don't think he makes the Brewers better than the Cubs and wouldn't give up Burnes to get a couple months of him.
I agree with pretty much everything wades said above. In response to the Pirates comparison, I'm not advocating holding the prospects for the big league roster. I think only a handful may realistically contribute within this competitive window. But even viewing the whole farm system as nothing but trade capital, I think you have to have a long view and try to maximize return, both in terms of talent and team control, to be competitive from 2018-2020. Of the players who could contribute to a postseason run, the Brewers lose literally no one next year, then only Chacin and Albers going into 2020.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 23, 2018, 08:33:29 AM
It's pretty stupid for fans to give a standing O in support of a player who did something idiotic that hurt those around him. However, fans do stupid things all the time and it's never a good look. This isn't specific to one team or one city. It just so happens that it was Brewers fans looking like fools this time. Give it a month or two and another fanbase will make themselves look just as ignorant if not more so.
Just watched Pardon the Interruption. Wilbon prefaced his remarks by saying he thinks Milwaukee is an inclusive town, likening it to the Twin Cities and other places where he never felt racist overtones. But he also said that there sure were a lot of white folks cheering Hader and wondered if it wasn't part of "the Trumping of America." His words, not mine.
Cubs to start the game hitting leadoff and pitch in the 9th
(1908-present)
Anthony Rizzo tonight
Jon Jay July 6, 2017
Doug Dascenzo July 2, 1991
Doug Dascenzo June 10, 1991
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 20, 2018, 08:54:58 PM
If you can't hit the meatball, you shouldn't be playing softball.
The idea behind those rules is to get another player into the game, not that the pitcher can't hit. Often you are allowed to DH for any position, not just pitcher.
No Tebow in a Mets uniform this year. Unfortunate injury.
Quote from: MU82 on July 23, 2018, 09:29:44 PM
Just watched Pardon the Interruption. Wilbon prefaced his remarks by saying he thinks Milwaukee is an inclusive town, likening it to the Twin Cities and other places where he never felt racist overtones. But he also said that there sure were a lot of white folks cheering Hader and wondered if it wasn't part of "the Trumping of America." His words, not mine.
I saw that too. It was a bit of a leap if you ask me. How many minorities were actually in the stands? It wasn't like it was a near 50/50 split with only the white people standing and cheering. Also, we can't exactly tell the sexual orientation of the fans who were cheering. Blaming Trump for stuff like this is the new "Thanks, Obama" ;)
I'd be willing to bet that no more than 1% of the fans cheering were doing so because they agree with what he said in his tweets and the other 99+% were cheering because they were showing support for one of the best players on their favorite team.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 24, 2018, 08:10:23 AM
I saw that too. It was a bit of a leap if you ask me. How many minorities were actually in the stands? It wasn't like it was a near 50/50 split with only the white people standing and cheering. Also, we can't exactly tell the sexual orientation of the fans who were cheering. Blaming Trump for stuff like this is the new "Thanks, Obama" ;)
I'd be willing to bet that no more than 1% of the fans cheering were doing so because they agree with what he said in his tweets and the other 99+% were cheering because they were showing support for one of the best players on their favorite team.
But there is a third category of people who didn't agree with the tweets, but thought that the whole thing was a PC overreaction. They were cheering to "own the libs."
But by and large I agree that most of the people who were cheering were doing so to support the guy.
Quote from: tower912 on July 24, 2018, 07:54:26 AM
No Tebow in a Mets uniform this year. Unfortunate injury.
Fortunate for Mets fans to not have to deal with that sideshow during another abysmal season. If he was just another minor leaguer, he's not getting talked about as a call up from AA when he's not top 20 in any hitting category in a 12 team league and was hitting under .250, as a career .225-.230 hitter, until he had a hot streak the last month.
Good guy, pretty solid CFB analyst, clearly an exceptional overall athlete...not a baseball player worthy of conversation or even promotion to AAA, much less playing at Citi Field. He'd hit .125
I agree with all of this except the notion that the Mets don't need a sideshow.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 24, 2018, 09:41:55 AM
Fortunate for Mets fans to not have to deal with that sideshow during another abysmal season. If he was just another minor leaguer, he's not getting talked about as a call up from AA when he's not top 20 in any hitting category in a 12 team league and was hitting under .250, as a career .225-.230 hitter, until he had a hot streak the last month.
Good guy, pretty solid CFB analyst, clearly an exceptional overall athlete...not a baseball player worthy of conversation or even promotion to AAA, much less playing at Citi Field. He'd hit .125
Tebow's hitting .320 since early June (38 games). He's not a MLB-caliber player but he's not total stiff out there either. I would have enjoyed seeing him get a September call-up. The Mets are a total disaster. What's the harm?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 24, 2018, 08:10:23 AM
I saw that too. It was a bit of a leap if you ask me. How many minorities were actually in the stands? It wasn't like it was a near 50/50 split with only the white people standing and cheering. Also, we can't exactly tell the sexual orientation of the fans who were cheering. Blaming Trump for stuff like this is the new "Thanks, Obama" ;)
I'd be willing to bet that no more than 1% of the fans cheering were doing so because they agree with what he said in his tweets and the other 99+% were cheering because they were showing support for one of the best players on their favorite team.
good observations MM
i believe, as well as the majority of the fans, that josh handled the situation very well. he immediately confronted the issue head on, took responsibility, sincerely apologized (as opposed to the sorry if i offended anyone thing), agreed to everything MLB has asked and to my knowledge, has begun his "sensitivity training" already. how much do people want to skewer the dude? he had the support of his players and management. they said that he hadn't exhibited that kind of behavior since they've known him
they were also applauding his performance
Things are calming down. Time to spice this thread up!
Anthony Rizzo is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time (minimum 100 PA)! Discuss.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Di09VmcX4AYzmvC.jpg)
Who, hey?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 24, 2018, 10:27:38 AM
Things are calming down. Time to spice this thread up!
Anthony Rizzo is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time (minimum 100 PA)! Discuss.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Di09VmcX4AYzmvC.jpg)
A ridiculously small sample size. 100 PA is, what, 20-25 games?
After last night I would have thought that today's daily Cub boast would be how Rizzo is the greatest reliever of all time.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 24, 2018, 11:25:16 AM
After last night I would have thought that today's daily Cub boast would be how Rizzo is the greatest reliever of all time.
Greatest two-way Cub since Brooks Kieschnick!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 24, 2018, 10:27:38 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Di09VmcX4AYzmvC.jpg)
Is this a list of retired baseball mascots?
Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on July 24, 2018, 12:33:13 PM
Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time.
Not statistically!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 24, 2018, 01:05:17 PM
Not statistically!
He did have, like, 3K more hits out of the lead off spot though. Not too shabby for 2nd place.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 24, 2018, 10:27:38 AM
Things are calming down. Time to spice this thread up!
Anthony Rizzo is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time (minimum 100 PA)! Discuss.
Poncedeleon is the greatest pitcher in MLB history (minimum 7 IP). Has never even given up a hit.
Discuss.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on July 24, 2018, 12:33:13 PM
Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time.
Willie Mays would have been better but he had more value lower in the order.
Ted Williams and his lifetime OBP of
.482 would have been the best ever. That lifetime OBP is the most amazing stat in my opinion, especially since Ted missed his 24, 25 and 26 year old seasons to WW II, which are normally around the very best three year stretch for a player. He also missed almost all of his 33 and 34 year old seasons to the Korean War, but the season before and after them his OBP was .486, so not much difference.
Quote from: Jockey on July 24, 2018, 01:19:50 PM
Poncedeleon is the greatest pitcher in MLB history (minimum 7 IP). Has never even given up a hit.
Discuss.
Hahah, time to rename the award. The Chris Sale is on track to win his first Poncedeleon award this season. About time!
By the way, the Sox and Brewers are actually looking like they line up pretty well. A package of Soria, Leury Garcia and Shields could help the Brewers in their rotation, pen and lineup. Leury is a complete swiss army knife that could play up the middle on the IF and even fill in in the OF if need be. Soria is controlled through next season and Leury isn't a FA until 2021.
Quote from: Jockey on July 24, 2018, 01:19:50 PM
Poncedeleon is the greatest pitcher in MLB history (minimum 7 IP). Has never even given up a hit.
Discuss.
John Paciorek is the greatest hitter in MLB history (minimum 5 PA). 3-3 with 2 walks in his only game ever played. All at age 18. I think I would have let that guy play in another game.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 24, 2018, 11:25:16 AM
After last night I would have thought that today's daily Cub boast would be how Rizzo is the greatest reliever of all time.
That goes without saying.
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 24, 2018, 01:30:56 PM
John Paciorek is the greatest hitter in MLB history (minimum 5 PA). 3-3 with 2 walks in his only game ever played. All at age 18. I think I would have let that guy play in another game.
IIRC, he never played above A ball for the rest of his career and only hit around .200 in the minors. I believe he had some health issues which contributed to his struggles.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 24, 2018, 11:25:16 AM
After last night I would have thought that today's daily Cub boast would be how Rizzo is the greatest reliever of all time.
I mean that's like saying water is wet. It's just an accepted fact.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 24, 2018, 01:14:00 PM
He did have, like, 3K more hits out of the lead off spot though. Not too shabby for 2nd place.
Psh in 11,000 at bats.
(https://i.gifer.com/3vh0.gif)
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 24, 2018, 01:25:50 PM
Willie Mays would have been better but he had more value lower in the order.
Ted Williams and his lifetime OBP of .482 would have been the best ever. That lifetime OBP is the most amazing stat in my opinion, especially since Ted missed his 24, 25 and 26 year old seasons to WW II, which are normally around the very best three year stretch for a player. He also missed almost all of his 33 and 34 year old seasons to the Korean War, but the season before and after them his OBP was .486, so not much difference.
So.......
Ted Williams would have been the greatest lead off hitter ever, but didn't bat lead off.
Since Babe Ruth was the greatest hitter ever, wouldn't he have been the best lead off hitter? Except of corse he didn't bat lead off. He also would have been the best #7 hitter of all time. Except of course, he didn't bat 7th.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 24, 2018, 08:10:23 AM
I saw that too. It was a bit of a leap if you ask me. How many minorities were actually in the stands? It wasn't like it was a near 50/50 split with only the white people standing and cheering. Also, we can't exactly tell the sexual orientation of the fans who were cheering. Blaming Trump for stuff like this is the new "Thanks, Obama" ;)
I'd be willing to bet that no more than 1% of the fans cheering were doing so because they agree with what he said in his tweets and the other 99+% were cheering because they were showing support for one of the best players on their favorite team.
Fair enough.
My initial reaction after Wilbon said what he did was, "How many black folks were even at the game? Just about the whole crowd was white.
Having said that, we do have a leader who is admired by David Duke and Richard Spencer. Racists have been more emboldened than they have in a long, long time. It's hard to blame Wilbon for what he is perceiving.
I certainly can't really relate given that I haven't been black in my entire life. Maybe chicos can relate to it better.
Britton to the Yanks. Maybe Boone will actually use him in a playoff game too.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 24, 2018, 10:54:10 PM
Britton to the Yanks. Maybe Boone will actually use him in a playoff game too.
Well done!
Chubbies choking away the surest thing beyond MU82 making political comments in most any thread. :)
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 24, 2018, 10:54:10 PM
Britton to the Yanks. Maybe Boone will actually use him in a playoff game too.
No quality starting pitchers available. Just add to the strong bullpen.
Only one NL team has a higher win percentage than the A's, and yet if the playoff's started today, they would not make the cut. I can't stay up long enough to ever watch them, what's going on out in Oakland?
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 08:26:03 AM
Only one NL team has a higher win percentage than the A's, and yet if the playoff's started today, they would not make the cut. I can't stay up long enough to ever watch them, what's going on out in Oakland?
Moneyball
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 08:26:03 AM
Only one NL team has a higher win percentage than the A's, and yet if the playoff's started today, they would not make the cut. I can't stay up long enough to ever watch them, what's going on out in Oakland?
Despite going 30-15 since June 1, the A's are still pretty much average statistically across the board. They have a great record in 1-run games but they're only 4 wins ahead of their Pythag W-L. The secret seems to be simply "winning games."
The Mariners are 19 games over .500 and they currently sit even in run differential (they had been outscored on the season prior to Sunday's 8-2 win). There must be something strange going on out west.
Does baseball need a new way to determine playoff teams?
The Indians have the worst record of any team in a playoff position right now. They also have a worse record than 2.5 teams on the outside looking in (A's, D Backs and Braves are tied for the second WC spot, and one won't make the cut). All of this despite playing in the weakest division (no other team over .500, and the White Sox and Royals have the 3rd worst and 2nd worst records in all of baseball). One of Seattle or Oakland not making the playoffs while having great seasons while Cleveland gets home field after playing meh for most of the year seems counter intuitive. Why not just take the 5 best records from each League (it works in the NBA). You'd have a Seattle, Oakland WC game, and the very clear three best teams would all be in the ALDS.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 10:40:58 AM
Does baseball need a new way to determine playoff teams?
The Indians have the worst record of any team in a playoff position right now. They also have a worse record than 2.5 teams on the outside looking in (A's, D Backs and Braves are tied for the second WC spot, and one won't make the cut). All of this despite playing in the weakest division (no other team over .500, and the White Sox and Royals have the 3rd worst and 2nd worst records in all of baseball). One of Seattle or Oakland not making the playoffs while having great seasons while Cleveland gets home field after playing meh for most of the year seems counter intuitive. Why not just take the 5 best records from each League (it works in the NBA). You'd have a Seattle, Oakland WC game, and the very clear three best teams would all be in the ALDS.
This argument brews up any time there is a situation like this one. Everything is cyclical. If a team just wins its division, it has no reason to whine.
The question about Cleveland deserving home-field advantage, that's a bit different. But I probably wouldn't change that, either.
On the list of baseball's problems, this ranks pretty low IMHO.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2018, 10:46:13 AM
This argument brews up any time there is a situation like this one. Everything is cyclical. If a team just wins its division, it has no reason to whine.
The question about Cleveland deserving home-field advantage, that's a bit different. But I probably wouldn't change that, either.
On the list of baseball's problems, this ranks pretty low IMHO.
Agree that it doesn't come up often, but that doesn't mean that the system isn't unfair. Cleveland will coast to winning their division because it'll take less than 90 wins to do so, while a potential 100+ win team, with a win percentage a full 10% higher, in the Yankees will be in a one game playoff. Makes no sense.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
Agree that it doesn't come up often, but that doesn't mean that the system isn't unfair. Cleveland will coast to winning their division because it'll take less than 90 wins to do so, while a potential 100+ win team, with a win percentage a full 10% higher, in the Yankees will be in a one game playoff. Makes no sense.
In 2015, the teams with the 3 best records in the NL all came from the Central. The Pirates finished 6 and 8 games better than the Mets and Dodgers but got knocked out in the Wild Card Game (a game the 97-win Cubs had to win on the road). That's how it works sometimes. If anything, I think MLB needs a more balanced schedule.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 25, 2018, 11:00:49 AM
In 2015, the teams with the 3 best records in the NL all came from the Central. The Pirates finished 6 and 8 games better than the Mets and Dodgers but got knocked out in the Wild Card Game (a game the 97-win Cubs had to win on the road). That's how it works sometimes. If anything, I think MLB needs a more balanced schedule.
Wasn't situations like that the main driving force behind adding the second Wild Card team(before 2012 the Cubs wouldn't have even gotten a chance to win that game on the road)? MLB has already shown an ability to change, and having the 5 best teams in each league make the playoffs seems obvious enough.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 11:05:16 AM
Wasn't situations like that the main driving force behind adding the second Wild Card team? MLB has already shown an ability to change, and having the 5 best teams in each league make the playoffs seems obvious enough.
Since the second WC was introduced in 2012, there has only been 1 time when the 5 teams with the best records in each league didn't all make the playoffs. That was in the AL in 2012 when Detroit won the Central but had a worse record than two teams that didn't make the postseason...and the Tigers ended up winning the pennant.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 25, 2018, 11:15:36 AM
Since the second WC was introduced in 2012, there has only been 1 time when the 5 teams with the best records in each league didn't all make the playoffs. That was in the AL in 2012 when Detroit won the Central but had a worse record than two teams that didn't make the postseason...and the Tigers ended up winning the pennant.
I'm not trying to say that it happens often, but what other sport is there even a possibility of not making the playoffs when you have a better record than a team that does?
You obviously want to reward division winners, but when the NBA changed its rule after the 2014-15 season when Portland got the 4 seed despite finishing with a worse record than both the 5 and 6 seed, there haven't been any problems, and I know part of that is because a greater percentage of teams make the playoffs in basketball, but I would think the league would want the best teams in the playoffs.
Need to up the wild card to a 3 game series, simple.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 11:23:42 AM
I'm not trying to say that it happens often, but what other sport is there even a possibility of not making the playoffs when you have a better record than a team that does?
You obviously want to reward division winners, but when the NBA changed its rule after the 2014-15 season when Portland got the 4 seed despite finishing with a worse record than both the 5 and 6 seed, there haven't been any problems, and I know part of that is because a greater percentage of teams make the playoffs in basketball, but I would think the league would want the best teams in the playoffs.
The NFL.
In 2010 the 7-9 Seahawks won their division (and then a playoff game!) while the 10-6 NY and Tampa Bay did not make it.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 11:23:42 AM
I'm not trying to say that it happens often, but what other sport is there even a possibility of not making the playoffs when you have a better record than a team that does?
You obviously want to reward division winners, but when the NBA changed its rule after the 2014-15 season when Portland got the 4 seed despite finishing with a worse record than both the 5 and 6 seed, there haven't been any problems, and I know part of that is because a greater percentage of teams make the playoffs in basketball, but I would think the league would want the best teams in the playoffs.
The NBA and NFL.
This past season, the Nuggets would have been the 6-seed in the East but didn't make the playoffs.
The 2016 Bulls had the same record as the 6-seed in the West but missed the playoffs.
The 2015 Thunder missed the playoffs but would have been 6th in the East.
The 2015 Jets missed the playoffs with a better record than 4-seed Houston.
In 2014, the Eagles, 49ers, Chiefs, Chargers, Texans, Bills and Dolphins all had a better record than playoff-bound Carolina.
Arizona missed the playoffs with a better record than the Packers in 2013.
This is only going back a few seasons. Sure, some of these are cross-conference but it's not as uncommon as you'd think.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on July 25, 2018, 11:32:12 AM
The NFL.
In 2010 the 7-9 Seahawks won their division (and then a playoff game!) while the 10-6 NY and Tampa Bay did not make it.
I did not know that. I admit to not following the NFL at all, but that format seems really stupid too. Why would you reward a team by getting lucky and having terrible teams in their division?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 25, 2018, 11:29:13 AM
Need to up the wild card to a 3 game series, simple.
That will never happen. MLB like the one game thing and it makes the other teams sit too long.
I am generally in favor of changing nothing, but if I did, I would do away with divisions and go to full league standings. Each team plays the other 11 or 12 times a year. Playoffs would either be five teams under the current format or six with the top two getting byes.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 11:39:20 AM
I did not know that. I admit to not following the NFL at all, but that format seems really stupid too. Why would you reward a team by getting lucky and having terrible teams in their division?
Because there is no real fair way. How can you schedule the post season without divisions in a 16 game schedule?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 25, 2018, 11:37:05 AM
The NBA and NFL.
This past season, the Nuggets would have been the 6-seed in the East but didn't make the playoffs.
The 2016 Bulls had the same record as the 6-seed in the West but missed the playoffs.
The 2015 Thunder missed the playoffs but would have been 6th in the East.
The 2015 Jets missed the playoffs with a better record than 4-seed Houston.
In 2014, the Eagles, 49ers, Chiefs, Chargers, Texans, Bills and Dolphins all had a better record than playoff-bound Carolina.
Arizona missed the playoffs with a better record than the Packers in 2013.
This is only going back a few seasons. Sure, some of these are cross-conference but it's not as uncommon as you'd think.
Admitted my lack of knowledge about football.
As for the NBA, I would treat the different Conferences like the different Leagues in Baseball. As it stands, the A's should have a complaint against the Indians, not the Braves or D backs.
Also, isn't the NBA considering changing their playoff format because of the unbalance between the two Conferences (not trying to make this an NBA thread I swear).
Quote from: #bansultan on July 25, 2018, 11:43:13 AM
Because there is no real fair way. How can you schedule the post season without divisions in a 16 game schedule?
Again not a football expert, but couldn't you treat it more like baseball, where you play every team in your division twice, and then only play other teams in your conference? You'd still come up two games short, but it's better, because you would play the teams that you're competing with for a playoff spot. Maybe do one cross over game so you can keep the NY or LA rivalries going, but is a week 16 Eagles Raiders game the equivalent of a week 16 Vikings Packers game?
Just looking at last year, Baltimore, Buffalo, Tennessee, and LA all finished with the same record, but only 2 went to the playoffs. I don't know the tiebreakers but looking at Baltimore's schedule, they played and lost to Tennessee, but didn't play either Buffalo, or LA. If they had them on the schedule instead of an NFC team, would that have made a difference?
Unless a sport does away with leagues/conferences and divisions and has every team play every other team the same number of times, both home and away, and puts the top X number of teams into the postseason, there's no truly "fair to all" way to determine postseason berths. The systems that the major pro sports currently have in place are about as good as it can possibly be.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 11:44:39 AM
Admitted my lack of knowledge about football.
As for the NBA, I would treat the different Conferences like the different Leagues in Baseball. As it stands, the A's should have a complaint against the Indians, not the Braves or D backs.
Also, isn't the NBA considering changing their playoff format because of the unbalance between the two Conferences (not trying to make this an NBA thread I swear).
There has been talk about the NBA just going with the 16 best teams, but that hasn't happened and the commissioner said recently that travel would make it unlikely to happen. In other words, he doesn't want teams from the East Coast and West Coast having to criss-cross the country for first-round series.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2018, 12:18:41 PM
There has been talk about the NBA just going with the 16 best teams, but that hasn't happened and the commissioner said recently that travel would make it unlikely to happen. In other words, he doesn't want teams from the East Coast and West Coast having to criss-cross the country for first-round series.
You mean like the Philadelphia v Los Angles series that would be the NLDS right now? Not trying to shoot the messenger, but that's a lame excuse. If baseball can make it work, so can basketball.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 11:51:41 AM
Maybe do one cross over game so you can keep the NY or LA rivalries going, but is a week 16 Eagles Raiders game the equivalent of a week 16 Vikings Packers game?
Depends. What if the Eagles & Raiders are both competing for home field advantage while the Packers & Vikings are both out of the playoff hunt?
Back on baseball, do we really need to see the Brewers play the Reds 19 times per year. Play everybody in your league 8 times for 112 games. Play everybody in the other league twice for 30 games. 142 game season, the players are happy because they get more off days, and the season doesn't go into November. I don't think the total attendance would drop as dramatically as some think either. A lot more people would come out to see Mike Trout play, or Justin Verlander pitch if they know they only had one chance per year to see that. You would also have fewer Rays Orioles games that attract all of 14 people.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on July 25, 2018, 12:36:39 PM
Depends. What if the Eagles & Raiders are both competing for home field advantage while the Packers & Vikings are both out of the playoff hunt?
The point is that the Eagles and Raiders wouldn't be competing with each other for playoff position, while the Packers and Vikings potentially could. You'd still have bad games every week, but it would reduce the number of them, and the cross over games would all be geographically based. Philly v Pittsburgh, or Oakland(Vegas) v San Francisco, so the games with teams not in the same conference would still be rivalry games.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 12:24:08 PM
You mean like the Philadelphia v Los Angles series that would be the NLDS right now? Not trying to shoot the messenger, but that's a lame excuse. If baseball can make it work, so can basketball.
Just remember that when teams travel from coast to coast in baseball, they set up shop for 3 games. It would be different for basketball.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 25, 2018, 12:56:39 PM
Just remember that when teams travel from coast to coast in baseball, they set up shop for 3 games. It would be different for basketball.
NLDS is 2 2 1. Basketball seven game series would be 2 2 1 1 1. Still more travel time for basketball, but a flight from NY to LA is only like 6 hours these days. That's not bad. Considering the luxury they'd be flying, I don't think the travel would be too strenuous.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 01:00:59 PM
NLDS is 2 2 1. Basketball seven game series would be 2 2 1 1 1. Still more travel time for basketball, but a flight from NY to LA is only like 6 hours these days. That's not bad. Considering the luxury they'd be flying, I don't think the travel would be too strenuous.
My apologies. I thought you were talking regular season.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 12:48:19 PM
The point is that the Eagles and Raiders wouldn't be competing with each other for playoff position, while the Packers and Vikings potentially could. You'd still have bad games every week, but it would reduce the number of them, and the cross over games would all be geographically based. Philly v Pittsburgh, or Oakland(Vegas) v San Francisco, so the games with teams not in the same conference would still be rivalry games.
In the past few years, the NFL has made it a point to schedule division and conference games in the last few weeks of the season as much as possible in hopes of creating more games "that matter" as late as possible.
Also, do you think Bears-Colts, Lions-Browns or Panthers-Titans "geographic rivalry" games are going to move the needle?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 25, 2018, 01:07:44 PM
In the past few years, the NFL has made it a point to schedule division and conference games in the last few weeks of the season as much as possible in hopes of creating more games "that matter" as late as possible.
Also, do you think Bears-Colts, Lions-Browns or Panthers-Titans "geographic rivalry" games are going to move the needle?
I think they have the potential to more so than other "crossover" games in my never gonna happen proposed scenario. The lower the travel distance, the more opposing fans show up, which certainly helps rivalries pick up steam.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 12:24:08 PM
You mean like the Philadelphia v Los Angles series that would be the NLDS right now? Not trying to shoot the messenger, but that's a lame excuse. If baseball can make it work, so can basketball.
I understand. I don't think the travel should be an impediment. These guys travel in total luxury. But I am just saying what the commish said, and maybe it's just a convenient excuse to keep status quo. I don't really see a need for a change, but a change wouldn't bother me.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 12:38:04 PM
142 game season, the players are happy because they get more off days, and the season doesn't go into November.
I love the idea of shortening the season. Now, can the players be convinced to give up 12.3% of their pay and can the owners be convinced to give up 12.3% of their revenue?
The latter might actually be much lower because, theoretically at least, giving fans less might make more of them come out to more games - except for the few teams that always sell out, of course.
But the former ... there is absolutely no way the owners would agree to this unless the players took a commensurate pay cut, and there is nothing that has happened in the history of the player-owner relationship that leads me to think the players would accept such a pay cut.
So, as Lou Piniella used to say, the point is "mute."
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 12:48:19 PM
The point is that the Eagles and Raiders wouldn't be competing with each other for playoff position, while the Packers and Vikings potentially could.
I understand your point. I just disagree with it.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 25, 2018, 12:38:04 PM
Back on baseball, do we really need to see the Brewers play the Reds 19 times per year. Play everybody in your league 8 times for 112 games. Play everybody in the other league twice for 30 games. 142 game season, the players are happy because they get more off days, and the season doesn't go into November. I don't think the total attendance would drop as dramatically as some think either. A lot more people would come out to see Mike Trout play, or Justin Verlander pitch if they know they only had one chance per year to see that. You would also have fewer Rays Orioles games that attract all of 14 people.
Or play everyone in your league 10 x's, the other league 2x, voila, 160 game schedule.
Go to 9 x's (3 3 game series) for 126 games, plus 30 vs other league for a 156 game schedule.
problem with the 30 games vs the other league is that is a bunch of 2 game series. but with the new days off schedule, that might work out better.
At the end of the day, every team knows the rules going into the season. and (currently), it comes down to playing your division opponents more than the other divisions/league. want to be in the playoffs, beat the teams that know you best.
When baseball goes to 32 teams, I have a feeling leagues will be no different than conferences in basketball or hockey. Everyone plays everyone. I also think this is what will bring the DH to the NL.
James Shields has 10 quality starts in his last 13, and has pitched into the 7th inning in 9 of them.
Joakim Soria has given up 2 runs (earned or otherwise) since the beginning of June, and they were in the same outing. During that stretch he is K-ing just under 13/9. BAA of .178 and a WHIP of .93 He is sporting an OPS against him of .428. Not too shabby.
These 2 are probably the Sox best 2 trade chips, assuming Abreu stays on South Side.
Oh, and with the Nats under .500 and 7 games out, I wonder if they would entertain the notion of trading Harper...
Well, I put the hex on Shields for tonight. Also, I, for one, was surprised that the Mike Trout vs. Chris Volstad matchup ended in a Home Run.
https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/the-cubs-need-jacob-degrom
Baez for Degrom
Discuss
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 26, 2018, 09:48:43 AM
https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/the-cubs-need-jacob-degrom
Baez for Degrom
Discuss
Trade the best slider and the best tagger in the history of baseball?
Insanity! Especially with my sources saying he also is top 3 in scratchin' and top 5 in spittin'!!
Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2018, 09:54:58 AM
Trade the best slider and the best tagger in the history of baseball?
Insanity! Especially with my sources saying he also is top 3 in scratchin' and top 5 in spittin'!!
And most exciting player.
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 26, 2018, 09:48:43 AM
https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/the-cubs-need-jacob-degrom
Baez for Degrom
Discuss
In a heartbeat.
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 26, 2018, 09:48:43 AM
https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/the-cubs-need-jacob-degrom
Baez for Degrom
Discuss
Neither team would make this deal.
Baez has been the Cubs best player this season. With Bryant's nagging shoulder injury, there's no way they'd deal Baez.
The Mets have Rosario at SS and their top prospect is also a middle infielder. Not to mention, if they're going to trade DeGrom, they're going to expect a lot more than 1 player in return.
Pointless, clickbait article.
I'd do it if I was the Mets, even if Baez in reality was only the second or third best tagger. Everyday player is more reliable value. I doubt either would do it though.
Baez is not moving. If any of the cubs everyday players are being shipped his name is Russell. (or Kyle)
Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2018, 09:54:58 AM
Trade the best slider and the best tagger in the history of baseball?
Insanity! Especially with my sources saying he also is top 3 in scratchin' and top 5 in spittin'!!
Best slapper of five since Vander Blue as well!
1) Looking back to 2015 I wonder who expected De Grom to be the runaway stud over Harvey and Thor? He was ROY first, but seemed like he had the lower ceiling compared to the two power pitching beasts. Maybe thats just me.
2) Ive never been less pleased to be completely right than when I was super annoyed about signing Darvish. Never liked him, hated the signing, ugh.
3) We laugh, but I'm sure Theo could probably convince Sandy Alderson and the Wilpon's that Baez' tagging ability is worth significant WAR. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to Metropolitans and wasting talent.
Quote from: CTWarrior on July 26, 2018, 11:05:40 AM
I'd do it if I was the Mets, even if Baez in reality was only the second or third best tagger.
Second or third best? Second or third?
Take it back, or the baseball gods will unleash fire and fury like the world has never seen!!!!
Happy ta bee a Brewers, hey?
Quote from: #UnleashLaxBros on July 26, 2018, 11:52:35 AM
Baez is not moving. If any of the cubs everyday players are being shipped his name is Russell. (or Kyle)
With Bryant on the DL and his status uncertain the Cubs won't be trading any players off the major league roster. Even if Bryant was healthy that was unlikely.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 25, 2018, 08:04:11 PM
James Shields has 10 quality starts in his last 13, and has pitched into the 7th inning in 9 of them.
Joakim Soria has given up 2 runs (earned or otherwise) since the beginning of June, and they were in the same outing. During that stretch he is K-ing just under 13/9. BAA of .178 and a WHIP of .93 He is sporting an OPS against him of .428. Not too shabby.
These 2 are probably the Sox best 2 trade chips, assuming Abreu stays on South Side.
Oh, and with the Nats under .500 and 7 games out, I wonder if they would entertain the notion of trading Harper...
Good call.
The Brewers acquired the right-handed pitcher Joachim Soria and cash considerations from the White Sox in exchange for pitching prospects Kodi Medeiros and Wilber Pérez, the clubs announced Thursday.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 26, 2018, 01:25:11 PM
Good call.
Glad David Stearns is a Scooper and took my sales pitch to heart. I like the deal from the Sox side as well. Medeiros seems to have good stuff with control issues, which falls right into the Sox strength for player development.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 26, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Glad David Stearns is a Scooper and took my sales pitch to heart. I like the deal from the Sox side as well. Medeiros seems to have good stuff with control issues, which falls right into the Sox strength for player development.
His slider has looks like it has solid potential, but his control issues and his lack of ability to blow his fastball by hitters once he left Hawaii is a little concerning.
I would hope that there are still moves for the Crew to make, but adding pen depth is never a bad thing.
Sounds like the Cubs are closing in on a deal for Cole Hamels. Word is the Cubs will pay $4 million of the $14.2 owed to him this year and the buyout of next year along with some low level prospects.
His stats away from home are pretty good but the same thing was true of Tyler Chatwood.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjCChErW0AE-hl4.jpg)
Not a huge move but it's cheap and keeps them under the luxury tax. Also he can't be worse than Chatwood has been.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 26, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Glad David Stearns is a Scooper and took my sales pitch to heart. I like the deal from the Sox side as well. Medeiros seems to have good stuff with control issues, which falls right into the Sox strength for player development.
Could you please explain that to Lucas Giolito and Carson Fullmer?
Burnes, Jeffress, Hader, Soria, and Knebel. Not sure I've ever seen a better bullpen in Milwaukee.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 26, 2018, 04:11:07 PM
Sounds like the Cubs are closing in on a deal for Cole Hamels. Word is the Cubs will pay $4 million of the $14.2 owed to him this year and the buyout of next year along with some low level prospects.
His stats away from home are pretty good but the same thing was true of Tyler Chatwood.
Not a huge move but it's cheap and keeps them under the luxury tax. Also he can't be worse than Chatwood has been.
Obviously Hamels has been bad this year but he was really good in 2016. It's worth a shot to see if he has anything left, especially if they're giving up marginal prospects and Darvish is still going to be out a while.
You never know, Verlander had an ERA near 4 before he was traded. Perhaps a trade to a contender will rejuvenate Hamels as well (obviously not expecting Verlander-like dominance, just a decent step up from his current level of Chatwood-like ineffectiveness).
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 26, 2018, 04:28:31 PM
Obviously Hamels has been bad this year but he was really good in 2016. It's worth a shot to see if he has anything left, especially if they're giving up marginal prospects and Darvish is still going to be out a while.
You never know, Verlander had an ERA near 4 before he was traded. Perhaps a trade to a contender will rejuvenate Hamels as well (obviously not expecting Verlander-like dominance, just a decent step up from his current level of Chatwood-like ineffectiveness).
Agreed. If they had to give up anything of value I'd pass, but $4 mil and lesser prospects: sign me up.
Well that was an exciting ending to the Cubs game.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 26, 2018, 04:12:00 PM
Could you please explain that to Lucas Giolito and Carson Fullmer?
Hahaha, yeah well, you can't win 'em all. Fulmer has been moved to the pen and seems to be doing better, albeit in a small sample size, and Giolito is a veritable success story, I mean, he hasn't walked 7 guys in a game since May!
Oh, and you would think with Strasburg going on the DL, that may push the Nats more towards selling.
They could completely load up their system, and have most of their team back and be back as a favorite in the division next year. They could get a haul for Bryce (obviously) Murphy, Gio, Herrera, Kelley.
Even with out Harper next season they still have Soto, Robles and Eaton in the OF, and Rendon and Turner on the IF and Scherzer and Strasburg in the rotation. The Nationals are going to be MLBs most interesting team for the next couple days.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 26, 2018, 04:52:53 PM
Well that was an exciting ending to the Cubs game.
Was there today - great comeback and what a 9th inning. I hope Bote isn't moved because he has the potential to be a Swiss Army knife once Zobrist is done.
I liked the Chatwood signing but it's close to unsustainable at this point. He's going to have to reset this offseason.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 26, 2018, 04:12:00 PM
Could you please explain that to Lucas Giolito and Carson Fullmer?
Yeah, they didn't get the memo. Has Coop lost the magic or is he just better at "fixing" veteran pitchers?
Arcia back for the Brewers. Hit .357/.438/.543 during his assignment. Just getting last year's production from him would be a boost to the ugly bottom half of the lineup.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 26, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
Burnes, Jeffress, Hader, Soria, and Knebel. Not sure I've ever seen a better bullpen in Milwaukee.
Albers also expected back tomorrow. Easily the best since '11 when it was an auto-win if the starter could make it through five and they'd turn it over to Hawkins/Saito/K-Rod/Axford in order for six through nine.
Cole Hamels to Cubs
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 26, 2018, 06:39:16 PM
Was there today - great comeback and what a 9th inning. I hope Bote isn't moved because he has the potential to be a Swiss Army knife once Zobrist is done.
I like the Chatwood signing but it's close to unsustainable at this point. He's going to have to reset this offseason.
What's to like about it?
Quote from: LAZER on July 26, 2018, 10:00:10 PM
What's to like about it?
Should have been past tense. I liked it at the time.
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 26, 2018, 08:27:23 PM
Cole Hamels to Cubs
Moving from a launching pad with a bad defense to a good defense. Stark home/road splits. Cubs didn't give up much so worth a shot.
Heading to Chicago for a three day weekend next week. Looking into tickets for Cubs for next Friday's 1:20 game v Padres. Looking for up to 4 tickets in case someone is looking to unload theirs.
@jonmorosi
Source: Matt Harvey trade talks "ongoing" between #Brewers and #Reds. @MLB @MLBNetwork
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 27, 2018, 09:48:54 AM
@jonmorosi
Source: Matt Harvey trade talks "ongoing" between #Brewers and #Reds. @MLB @MLBNetwork
It'll depend on the price for a rental I suppose. The good news is that at the end of the year the Reds get zero so the rent can't be too high. At least the Crew got some good news on the Davies medical front. But it seems unrealistic to think they can ride Freddy as the 5th for the rest of the year. That would be asking a lot from the 22 y/o.
In his last five starts, Tyler Chatwood has a 7.71 ERA, has allowed five homers, 27 hits and 22 walks in 25.2 IP.
The Cubs are 5-0 in those games.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 27, 2018, 10:51:51 AM
In his last five starts, Tyler Chatwood has a 7.71 ERA, has allowed five homers, 27 hits and 22 walks in 25.2 IP.
The Cubs are 5-0 in those games.
Chatwood confirmed to be the cubs good luck charm.
Straight up winner.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 27, 2018, 10:51:51 AM
In his last five starts, Tyler Chatwood has a 7.71 ERA, has allowed five homers, 27 hits and 22 walks in 25.2 IP.
The Cubs are 5-0 in those games.
Great stat!
Jacob DeGrom had a stretch of 11 starts in which he pitched 70.1 innings, K'd 90, allowed 7 ER (0.90 ERA) and the Mets went 3-8.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 27, 2018, 09:48:54 AM
@jonmorosi
Source: Matt Harvey trade talks "ongoing" between #Brewers and #Reds. @MLB @MLBNetwork
I'd only be willing to offer slightly more than the equivalent of the washed up 30 year old catcher on an expiring contract they gave the Mets to get him. Sounds like Stearns hasn't even thought about getting Scooter back in a deal with the Reds, probably since it would be admitting his biggest mistake.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on July 27, 2018, 12:09:53 PM
WIN
Whatever
Is
Necessary
today
(https://cdn-vox--cdn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/l_xcdWzXSo5Hq1vgQ6vWodF89kY=/562x210:2620x1582/1400x933/filters:focal(562x210:2620x1582):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/47050206/usa-today-7472593.0.jpg)
Quote from: chapman on July 27, 2018, 12:24:20 PM
I'd only be willing to offer slightly more than the equivalent of the washed up 30 year old catcher on an expiring contract they gave the Mets to get him. Sounds like Stearns hasn't even thought about getting Scooter back in a deal with the Reds, probably since it would be admitting his biggest mistake.
Here's the problem with the 'Scooter thing'. The last roster spot in '17 was likely down to he and Aguilar. Villar was coming off a very solid year and Scooter hadn't really done anything as a member of the Brewers. A bigger mistake would have been to cut Agui loose, either last year or this year.
Quote from: jsglow on July 27, 2018, 12:40:33 PM
Here's the problem with the 'Scooter thing'. The last roster spot in '17 was likely down to he and Aguilar. Villar was coming off a very solid year and Scooter hadn't really done anything as a member of the Brewers. A bigger mistake would have been to cut Agui loose, either last year or this year.
I'm starting to wonder if Scooter's clean. His numbers with the Reds are way better than they were with the Brewers. It's left me suspicious.
Kinda like that year Brady Anderson hit 50 HR out of nowhere. Hmm...makes me wonder.
Anyone willing to roll the dice on the whole "just need a change of scenery to get back to being good" thing?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2788192-greg-holland-released-by-cardinals-after-being-removed-from-closer-role
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 27, 2018, 01:10:52 PM
Anyone willing to roll the dice on the whole "just need a change of scenery to get back to being good" thing?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2788192-greg-holland-released-by-cardinals-after-being-removed-from-closer-role
Since the 2017 All-Star Break, Holland's ERA has been 7.16 and he's walked 32 in 49 IP. Not good numbers for anyone, let alone a closer. I'm not sure that "scenery" is his problem.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 27, 2018, 01:35:51 PM
Since the 2017 All-Star Break, Holland's ERA has been 7.16 and he's walked 32 in 49 IP. Not good numbers for anyone, let alone a closer. I'm not sure that "scenery" is his problem.
With the Cardinals eating the difference of his salary, it can't hurt to take a flyer on him to see if a change of scenery works.
@Ken_Rosenthal
#Mets discussing both Wheeler and Cabrera with #Brewers, sources tell The Athletic. No indication a deal is close. NYM also talking about players separately with other teams. #DBacks one of several on Cabrera, as first noted by @Buster_ESPN.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 27, 2018, 01:43:43 PM
With the Cardinals eating the difference of his salary, it take hurt to take a flyer on him to see if a change of scenery works.
Rockies are 8-2 in their last 10, 1 game out of the second WC and an organization that he is familiar with. Might be worth a shot.
White Sox Twitter is pissy that the Sox are listening when teams call up to inquire on Rodon. I'm 100% fine with them listening, it'd be incredibly stupid for them not to.
I like Rodon, I get that he should be an important piece when they get good soon. The flip side is he gets hurt more often than I'd like, when he's good, he's really good, but he's also at times wildly inconsistent. As an example, if the Braves call and are talking about offering 2 of 3 of Riley/Wright/Soroka, I'm not putting the phone down if I'm Hahn.
I'm not saying they should actively be shopping him, but I'm more than fine listening to pitches for him.
Quote from: MUDish on July 27, 2018, 02:56:51 PM
White Sox Twitter is pissy that the Sox are listening when teams call up to inquire on Rodon. I'm 100% fine with them listening, it'd be incredibly stupid for them not to.
I like Rodon, I get that he should be an important piece when they get good soon. The flip side is he gets hurt more often than I'd like, when he's good, he's really good, but he's also at times wildly inconsistent. As an example, if the Braves call and are talking about offering 2 of 3 of Riley/Wright/Soroka, I'm not putting the phone down if I'm Hahn.
I'm not saying they should actively be shopping him, but I'm more than fine listening to pitches for him.
If someone wants to vastly overpay for Rodon, I'd be willing to deal him. But barring that, you've got to keep him. Injury issues or not, cost-controlled 25-year-old lefties with top-of-the-rotation stuff don't grow on trees.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 27, 2018, 05:22:38 PM
If someone wants to vastly overpay for Rodon, I'd be willing to deal him. But barring that, you've got to keep him. Injury issues or not, cost-controlled 25-year-old lefties with top-of-the-rotation stuff don't grow on trees.
Right, and if I'm Rick Hahn, and someone is throwing out stud names for Rodon, I'm at least listening. I'm not advocating a flat out sale of Rodon, but if the Jays called and said "interested in Vlad Jr?", we're gonna keep talking.
I have no idea what a Rodon market looks like, and I doubt he gets traded.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 27, 2018, 01:43:54 PM
@Ken_Rosenthal
#Mets discussing both Wheeler and Cabrera with #Brewers, sources tell The Athletic. No indication a deal is close. NYM also talking about players separately with other teams. #DBacks one of several on Cabrera, as first noted by @Buster_ESPN.
Cabrera to Philly. Wheeler still in play though.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 27, 2018, 05:22:38 PM
If someone wants to vastly overpay for Rodon, I'd be willing to deal him. But barring that, you've got to keep him. Injury issues or not, cost-controlled 25-year-old lefties with top-of-the-rotation stuff don't grow on trees.
Agree that you have to listen and make a deal if someone is willing to vastly overpay, but I put the odds of it happening at 100-1.
Moustakas to the brewers. Shaw likely to make the move to second base. That's one way to improve your middle infield.
Moustakas? I did not see that coming. Adds a nice bat to the lineup but I'm skeptical that Shaw will be able to play 2nd effectively.
is scooter able to be pried away from the reds? if so, just tell him he needed a little work on their reds farm team. even though shaws numbers are down, i still think his bat will be ok. playing 2nd? not so much. don't even think about sending hernan anywhere. i think hes gonna be a stud
I like the trade a lot. Adding some serious pop to the lineup for a team who's historic 20 HR guys have had off years. The Crew's biggest problem has been their inability to score runs. Plus let's not forget that Moustakas is another guy with a KC ring, always valuable experience for a young team trying to learn to win in crunch time.
As to defense, no manager I know handles in game switches better than Couns. Milwaukee has gotten very good utilizing situational switches. This adds Villar to that existing pool of switchables, at least for this year. Shaw will be fine over there for 7 innings over 60 games, especially with all the shifting they do.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on July 28, 2018, 05:12:02 AM
is scooter able to be pried away from the reds? if so, just tell him he needed a little work on their reds farm team. even though shaws numbers are down, i still think his bat will be ok. playing 2nd? not so much. don't even think about sending hernan anywhere. i think hes gonna be a stud
The Brewers just made their move for an infielder. They will not be making another one.
Hernan has very little trade value. He's a 27 year old utility player. Unless he's on the Jake Arrieta schedule for steroids he's never going to be anything more than a utility player.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 28, 2018, 08:34:52 AM
The Brewers just made their move for an infielder. They will not be making another one.
Hernan has very little trade value. He's a 27 year old utility player. Unless he's on the Jake Arrieta schedule for steroids he's never going to be anything more than a utility player.
But I do like Hernan. His ability to contribute at literally 6-7 positions.
Quote from: jsglow on July 28, 2018, 08:41:52 AM
But I do like Hernan. His ability to contribute at literally 6-7 positions.
Agreed. But (again, assuming no Arrieta timeframe on some steroid use) Hernan will never be a stud and no team is going to hold back a trade unless the Brewers include Hernan Perez.
Of course.
So do you think the Crew tries to retain Moose next year? He kinda got hosed this past offseason. They could 'extend and reprice'. He might like living more than year to year. (I suppose some of that is determined by how well Shaw handles the switch. But I sure like lefty power.)
Quote from: jsglow on July 28, 2018, 08:53:20 AM
Of course.
So do you think the Crew tries to retain Mooch next year? He kinda got hosed this past offseason. They could 'extend and reprice'. He might like living more than year to year. (I suppose some of that is determined by how well Shaw handles the switch. But I sure like lefty power.)
With Boras as his agent and draft pick compensation not attached to him deflating his value, I think he will opt out.
Travis Shaw can play 2B?
Quote from: cheebs09 on July 28, 2018, 09:33:01 AM
With Boras as his agent and draft pick compensation not attached to him deflating his value, I think he will opt out.
But nobody 'wanted' him last year. He was one of those guys that got caught up in the non-signings. I think he'll explore and I don't think the Crew will pay $15MM as the contract calls for but who know if a mutual agreement can be reached. We'll see I suppose. Again, much depends on whether Shaw transitions well enough. This may all be moot if he boots too many balls or butchers too many DPs.
Dis dude is justa rental. Keston Hiura plays second base next season wit Shaw back ta turd. If four no udder reeson, 'cuz he's wey cheapa dan Mous, hey?
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on July 28, 2018, 09:43:38 AM
Travis Shaw can play 2B?
They say yes, based on playing in the general vicinity during shifts and taking grounders the past two weeks. I don't look forward to seeing it.
Quote from: jsglow on July 28, 2018, 08:53:20 AM
Of course.
So do you think the Crew tries to retain Mooch next year? He kinda got hosed this past offseason. They could 'extend and reprice'. He might like living more than year to year. (I suppose some of that is determined by how well Shaw handles the switch. But I sure like lefty power.)
If the experiment works they might be willing. $15M is steep, but the one year commitment might be acceptable with Hiura, Dubon, and Erceg all 2B/3B options that could be expected to be ready the following year. Dubon was hitting everything and going to be the one up when Arcia was optioned in May; tearing the ACL cost him at least a year and a half.
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 28, 2018, 12:02:01 AM
Moustakas to the brewers. Shaw likely to make the move to second base. That's one way to improve your middle infield.
Offensively, sure. Defensively? Absolutely not.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 28, 2018, 01:35:57 PM
Offensively, sure. Defensively? Absolutely not.
Because Villar has been such a defensive stud at second base this year...
Quote from: wadesworld on July 28, 2018, 01:46:45 PM
Because Villar has been such a defensive stud at second base this year...
Congrats - you posted without referencing Arrieta and steroids! Quite an accomplishment!!
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 28, 2018, 01:35:57 PM
Offensively, sure. Defensively? Absolutely not.
Both guys grade out as above average at 3rd. Really comes down to whether Shaw can play a passable 2nd. With elite defense in the outfield and at short, above average defense at catcher and 3rd, the Brewers can afford 2nd to be below average as long as Shaw is not a complete disaster
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on July 28, 2018, 04:50:29 PM
Both guys grade out as above average at 3rd. Really comes down to whether Shaw can play a passable 2nd. With elite defense in the outfield and at short, above average defense at catcher and 3rd, the Brewers can afford 2nd to be below average as long as Shaw is not a complete disaster
I know - I was referring to Shaw at 2nd.
i am shocked...stunned, that cubs fans arent ALL over these tweets from this braves pitcher from when he was in high school.
took like 15 seconds after the tweets surfaced when it was a brewers pitcher.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 29, 2018, 06:52:25 PM
i am shocked...stunned, that cubs fans arent ALL over these tweets from this braves pitcher from when he was in high school.
took like 15 seconds after the tweets surfaced when it was a brewers pitcher.
Most cub fans defended him. But k.
Teach your kids that any stupid a$$ed crap that they feel compelled to put on social media will inevitably come back to bite them. Tell them every day. And read your kids' posts so that you can shut them down if you need to.
Quote from: tower912 on July 29, 2018, 07:36:09 PM
Teach your kids that any stupid a$$ed crap that they feel compelled to put on social media will inevitably come back to bite them. Tell them every day. And read your kids' posts so that you can shut them down if you need to.
Don't do that.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on July 29, 2018, 07:32:10 PM
Most cub fans defended him. But k.
lol uhh...wut? i want some of what youre smoking.
Quote from: WithoutBias on July 29, 2018, 06:52:25 PM
i am shocked...stunned, that cubs fans arent ALL over these tweets from this braves pitcher from when he was in high school.
took like 15 seconds after the tweets surfaced when it was a brewers pitcher.
We've been too busy checking on the PED levels of the Brewers' roster.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on July 29, 2018, 09:35:28 PM
We've been too busy checking on the PED levels of the Brewers' roster.
Hopefully they are through the roof.
Trea Turner also having some teenage Tweets pop up for the wrong reasons. Where's Tall Titan when you need him?
Some horrible people in this world are having their true colors revealed. Sad that only when it's a Brewer do we hear about it on MUScoop.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 29, 2018, 11:25:28 PM
Hopefully they are through the roof.
Trea Turner also having some teenage Tweets pop up for the wrong reasons. Where's Tall Titan when you need him?
Some horrible people in this world are having their true colors revealed. Sad that only when it's a Brewer do we hear about it on MUScoop.
I just saw the news. They're also awful people, just like that p.o.s. Hader.
All good?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 29, 2018, 11:50:13 PM
I just saw the news. They're also awful people, just like that p.o.s. Hader.
All good?
Glad the Saint weighed in on it.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2018, 12:08:13 AM
Glad the Saint weighed in on it.
I'm here for you.
Looking forward to more of your stupidity this week!
Are people really surprised a subject would get more traction here when it refers to the player for a Milwaukee-based team considering that pretty much everyone here either does or at one point did live in the vicinity of Milwaukee?
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 30, 2018, 06:16:35 AM
Are people really surprised a subject would get more traction here when it refers to the player for a Milwaukee-based team considering that pretty much everyone here either does or at one point did live in the vicinity of Milwaukee?
I would hope if you are outraged by what a teenager Tweeted 7 years ago as a high schooler and think they're an awful racist homophobe today because of them and find the story so compelling that you need to give live Scoop updated you'd be outraged regardless of where the player plays.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 30, 2018, 06:16:35 AM
Are people really surprised a subject would get more traction here when it refers to the player for a Milwaukee-based team considering that pretty much everyone here either does or at one point did live in the vicinity of Milwaukee?
There are some on here who just like to have something to complain about...and when they can link that complaint to the Cubs and their fans, even better!
Turner's posts were dumb but pretty tame, all things considered. Newcomb called a lot of people f--s on twitter but neither posted anything about white power, the KKK or hating homosexuals. That said, they made stupid comments on social media and MLB should consider sending them to sensitivity training as well. I just hope their teams' fans learned from Milwaukee's mistake and don't give them standing O's next time out.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 30, 2018, 08:21:56 AM
Turner's posts were dumb but pretty tame, all things considered. Newcomb called a lot of people f--s on twitter but neither posted anything about white power, the KKK or hating homosexuals. That said, they made stupid comments on social media and MLB should consider sending them to sensitivity training as well. I just hope their teams' fans learned from Milwaukee's mistake and don't give them standing O's next time out.
All in all, MLB has done a pretty nice job with this. Valid arguments can certainly be made as to whether the punishments are severe enough, but the combination of its swift decision in the Hader case and having Billy Bean at the ready to work with players has really helped baseball avoid a PR cluster here. If this were the NFL, the Commissioner would be handing out random, disjointed punishments, and every new tweet that is unearthed would cause the whole thing to start over from the beginning again.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 30, 2018, 08:21:56 AM
There are some on here who just like to have something to complain about...and when they can link that complaint to the Cubs and their fans, even better!
Turner's posts were dumb but pretty tame, all things considered. Newcomb called a lot of people f--s on twitter but neither posted anything about white power, the KKK or hating homosexuals. That said, they made stupid comments on social media and MLB should consider sending them to sensitivity training as well. I just hope their teams' fans learned from Milwaukee's mistake and don't give them standing O's next time out.
What was that standing O about? I didn't really follow it because I couldn't care less about the Brewers (or the National League). But I saw the headline and it seemed weird.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on July 30, 2018, 08:48:23 AM
What was that standing O about? I didn't really follow it because I couldn't care less about the Brewers (or the National League). But I saw the headline and it seemed weird.
Hader got a standing O from the fans at the beginning of his first appearance at Miller Park after the tweets came to light. Many have rightly pointed out that this sends a poor message. The reality is, no matter what team Hader played for, every fan base would have reacted in the exact same way.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 30, 2018, 12:35:59 AM
I'm here for you.
Looking forward to more of your stupidity this week!
Ahh yes. We figured out Mr. Perfect's teenage mistakes. Choosing a school where stupid idiots like me can get the same degree he can. Sad!
Quote from: Babybluejeans on July 30, 2018, 08:48:23 AM
What was that standing O about? I didn't really follow it because I couldn't care less about the Brewers (or the National League). But I saw the headline and it seemed weird.
If you ask Cubs fans it was a bunch of racist white drunks applauding their own racist white drunk.
The reality is it was a fanbase supporting a star player who made a stupid mistake for something he did 7 years prior as a dumb high schooler that owned up to his stupidness and faced it head on. Cubs fans will tell you there would be a chorus of boos if this was a Cubs player. Any other sports fan in the world will tell you that maybe it shouldn't be this way, but the reaction would be the exact same from any other fanbase no matter where he plays.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2018, 09:46:29 AM
If you ask Cubs fans it was a bunch of racist white drunks applauding their own racist white drunk.
Where did any Cubs fan say anything close to this?
It was actually a national story and Brewers fans were largely ridiculed and rightly so. It was a bad look...but Brewers fans aren't the first or last fanbase to make themselves look foolish.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 29, 2018, 11:25:28 PM
Where's Tall Titan when you need him?
Sad that only when it's a Brewer do we hear about it on MUScoop.
Sorry, I didn't realize we had a huge Braves and Nats following here to make Newcomb and Turner relevant to this forum.
Sean Newcomb in starts after a Braves loss this season: 12 GS, 8-1, 1.84 ERA
So Braves fans, how do you think Kolby Allard is going to do in his debut tomorrow? Sounds like his velocity has been dropping over the past few seasons, however, in that happening he has learned how to pitch.
Freddie Freeman vs Chipper Jones after 1,400 plate appearances.
(https://i.imgur.com/g2KksAa.png)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 11:30:26 AM
Sorry, I didn't realize we had a huge Braves and Nats following here to make Newcomb and Turner relevant to this forum.
Racism is only worth discussing if it is in Milwaukee. Got it.
In regards to Turner and Newcomb, they are just as stupid as Hader and being young shouldn't excuse their behavior either. How did they not wipe their accounts after the Hader stuff came out?
I fully expect Atlanta to give Newcomb a standing O.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 19, 2018, 11:54:14 AM
So, at age 17, it's fine for him to post racial slurs online but at age 22, it's not. Going back to my original question, how do we decide when a person reaches the point where the "young and dumb" excuse no longer flies? For you, it's apparently sometime between age 18 and 22. For me, I think that a 17yo should know better than to post wildly offensive comments online.
Ah, the old "it could have been worse" defense. So if you had a 17yo, you'd be OK with him/her posting those same things online? After all, it's just "juvenile ramblings." It's not like your kid killed someone, right?
Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, this incident is part of a larger issue that's not specific to Hader. Kids do stupid things but simply being a kid doesn't make it acceptable to do those things. The kid in tower's story should absolutely be labeled for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid to warrant that label. That's how it works. One awful mistake, whether you're 16 or 60, can have a hugely negative effect on the rest of your life. People need to recognize that.
I just have a hard time getting on-board with "young and dumb" being an out for awful behavior. Now...get off my lawn!
EDIT: Just to clarify. I don't think Hader should be punished by MLB or the Brewers. Sending him to Sensitivity Training is the right move and I truly hope he learns from it and that he has already changed and grown as a person. I just have a problem with people shrugging it off as if he did nothing wrong simply because he was 17.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 30, 2018, 08:21:56 AM
There are some on here who just like to have something to complain about...and when they can link that complaint to the Cubs and their fans, even better!
Turner's posts were dumb but pretty tame, all things considered. Newcomb called a lot of people f--s on twitter but neither posted anything about white power, the KKK or hating homosexuals. That said, they made stupid comments on social media and MLB should consider sending them to sensitivity training as well. I just hope their teams' fans learned from Milwaukee's mistake and don't give them standing O's next time out.
Hmm. So the "it could've been worse" defense doesn't work...unless it does work?
Differentiating between which racists Tweets were worse, a couple weeks after claiming that we shouldn't differentiate between a teen Tweeting stupid stuff 6 years ago and an adult being a participating member of the KKK.
"Hader's team has nothing to do with it." Well, until it's a Brave and a National and then we don't discuss it because nobody cares about those teams, hey?
Classic.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 30, 2018, 09:24:13 AM
Hader got a standing O from the fans at the beginning of his first appearance at Miller Park after the tweets came to light. Many have rightly pointed out that this sends a poor message. The reality is, no matter what team Hader played for, every fan base would have reacted in the exact same way.
Yea, I figured it was a statement of support after owning up and apologizing, and not some white supremacist stuff.
However, I don't agree that every fan base would have reacted the same way. A fan base whose demographic trends more toward the object of Hader's vitriol, while not likely to boo him, would also probably not be standing up and cheering the guy.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 11:34:00 AM
Freddie Freeman vs Chipper Jones after 1,400 plate appearances.
(https://i.imgur.com/g2KksAa.png)
I think Freddie Freeman is suffering from some Mike Trout effect, given how mediocre the Braves have been in his time. Cause he's been fantastic, put up great numbers, as you show has been in lockstep with a Braves legend who came up at about the same age, but casual fans don't know him.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 30, 2018, 12:15:49 PM
I think Freddie Freeman is suffering from some Mike Trout effect, given how mediocre the Braves have been in his time. Cause he's been fantastic, put up great numbers, as you show has been in lockstep with a Braves legend who came up at about the same age, but casual fans don't know him.
Those Ks though... Crazy how their OBP still is very close despite that difference.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2018, 11:57:48 AM
Hmm. So the "it could've been worse" defense doesn't work...unless it does work?
Differentiating between which racists Tweets were worse, a couple weeks after claiming that we shouldn't differentiate between a teen Tweeting stupid stuff 6 years ago and an adult being a participating member of the KKK.
"Hader's team has nothing to do with it." Well, until it's a Brave and a National and then we don't discuss it because nobody cares about those teams, hey?
Classic.
Unlike many on here regarding Hader, I didn't use the "it could have been worse" defense to excuse Turner and Newcomb for their tweets. As I stated, both guys did something stupid and MLB should probably give them the same "punishment" as Hader. Just because Hader's tweets were more offensive, that doesn't make Turner and Newcomb's tweets acceptable.
Let's simplify this for you since you aren't getting it (or maybe since you refuse to acknowledge it). This board is more likely to discuss the Cubs and Brewers because most of us are either Cubs or Brewers fans. If a White Sox player was involved, that'd probably come up on here too. Tower is a Tigers fan (I believe) so I'm sure he'd be open for discussing an issue like this involving a Tigers player. If Hader was on the Orioles or Padres, I bet this topic either wouldn't have come up on here at all or it'd be a blip on the radar. You see how that works? There's also no one immediately coming to the defense of Turner or Newcomb stating that they were just "young and dumb" and prolonging the discussion. Additionally, most of us have already said our piece on the topic. It's not a complex concept for most people. Then again...you're not most people.
Bit of a long post warning.
I think Katie Nolan's take from her podcast last week was the right one. Long story short there are two key take aways:
When you compare what Hader has gone through to date with what the people who were the target of his vitrol have...Hader hasn't gone through anything yet so on it's surface a standing O doesn't make sense. I get the "he's on my team and he's had a tough week plus he did all the right things for 72 hours" viewpoint but it's a moment in time, let's all wait and see what he actually does going forward to help resolve some of this. Like it or not, he has an obligation now to raise awareness/find a way to improve this issue within his community, let's see how he follows through on this. If he spends the next 5 years trying to raise awareness in the community so some other arbitrary metric, we can give him a standing O.
The more important take away is how the standing O represents how much distance we still have to cover in getting people to understand those that are "different" than them. I assume there were at least one actual racist at the more joining the standing O because they support what Hader said, probably more, that's just reality. The vast majority of fans though are not overtly or actively racist, which is true of society as well. We can hang the mission accomplished banner because we've ended overt racism for the most part (before someone says "Charalottesville" that is an isolated incident and exceedingly rare) the majority assume we're done. Further, it is easier for the majority of that crowd to empathize with what Hader has gone through (both demographically and culturally) than it is for the majority to empathize with the target of Hader's tweets or recognize how their actions will be received by the communities he insulted. That lack of empathy is the next thing we have to go solve if we really want to make our communities a better place, we can't rest on "well I don't say or think racist things"
Quote from: JWags85 on July 30, 2018, 12:15:49 PM
I think Freddie Freeman is suffering from some Mike Trout effect, given how mediocre the Braves have been in his time. Cause he's been fantastic, put up great numbers, as you show has been in lockstep with a Braves legend who came up at about the same age, but casual fans don't know him.
Freeman's Similarity Scores are littered with the name Eddie Murray. He was another stud 1B who never really reached that household name status*. He had a couple postseason appearances early in his career (winning the WS in 1983) but played on some bad/mediocre teams until his late 30's.
* - Admittedly, Eddie's surly demeanor and relationship with the media played a role in that as well.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on July 30, 2018, 12:07:02 PM
Yea, I figured it was a statement of support after owning up and apologizing, and not some white supremacist stuff.
However, I don't agree that every fan base would have reacted the same way. A fan base whose demographic trends more toward the object of Hader's vitriol, while not likely to boo him, would also probably not be standing up and cheering the guy.
Any baseball team's fanbase is going to be fairly similar to that of Milwaukee's. Baseball is not basketball or football. Fanbases aren't a melting pot of diversity.
If it was a basketball arena you might have a point, but you don't see a ton of diversity walking around a baseball stadium no matter where you are.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 30, 2018, 12:24:58 PM
Unlike many on here regarding Hader, I didn't use the "it could have been worse" defense to excuse Turner and Newcomb for their tweets. As I stated, both guys did something stupid and MLB should probably give them the same "punishment" as Hader. Just because Hader's tweets were more offensive, that doesn't make Turner and Newcomb's tweets acceptable.
Let's simplify this for you since you aren't getting it (or maybe since you refuse to acknowledge it). This board is more likely to discuss the Cubs and Brewers because most of us are either Cubs or Brewers fans. If a White Sox player was involved, that'd probably come up on here too. Tower is a Tigers fan (I believe) so I'm sure he'd be open for discussing an issue like this involving a Tigers player. If Hader was on the Orioles or Padres, I bet this topic either wouldn't have come up on here at all or it'd be a blip on the radar. You see how that works? There's also no one immediately coming to the defense of Turner or Newcomb stating that they were just "young and dumb" and prolonging the discussion. Additionally, most of us have already said our piece on the topic. It's not a complex concept for most people. Then again...you're not most people.
You literally said, "Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, this incident is part of a larger issue that's not specific to Hader. Kids do stupid things but simply being a kid doesn't make it acceptable to do those things. The kid in tower's story should absolutely be labeled for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid to warrant that label. That's how it works. One awful mistake, whether you're 16 or 60, can have a hugely negative effect on the rest of your life. People need to recognize that."
Now you're saying that Hader's team does have something to do with it, after saying, quite literally, "Hader's team has
absolutely nothing to do with it."
So yeah, it does make it more complex when in one post you say one thing, and then in the next you say the complete opposite. Literally nobody had said a word about "this subject" until I had brought it up. Nobody immediately came to their defense for being "young and dumb" because the Cubs fans who were so distraught over Hader's 7 year old Tweets weren't screaming bloody murder over every new article that came out about it. So I have no clue what you're talking about. But hey, I'm not most people. And thank God for that.
Freddie Freeman's wife was featured on the show Say Yes to the Dress.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2018, 12:39:38 PM
You literally said, "Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, this incident is part of a larger issue that's not specific to Hader. Kids do stupid things but simply being a kid doesn't make it acceptable to do those things. The kid in tower's story should absolutely be labeled for the rest of his life because he did something incredibly stupid to warrant that label. That's how it works. One awful mistake, whether you're 16 or 60, can have a hugely negative effect on the rest of your life. People need to recognize that."
Now you're saying that Hader's team does have something to do with it, after saying, quite literally, "Hader's team has absolutely nothing to do with it."
So yeah, it does make it more complex when in one post you say one thing, and then in the next you say the complete opposite. Literally nobody had said a word about "this subject" until I had brought it up. Nobody immediately came to their defense for being "young and dumb" because the Cubs fans who were so distraught over Hader's 7 year old Tweets weren't screaming bloody murder over every new article that came out about it. So I have no clue what you're talking about. But hey, I'm not most people. And thank God for that.
To no one's surprise, you're struggling to follow along.
Pakuni: "Let's not make more of this that it deserves because he plays for a different team than the one you cheer for."
Pakuni believed that Cubs fans, specifically in a post to me, were making a big deal out of Hader's posts simply because he plays for the Brewers (ignoring the fact that it was a national story, I might add). In actuality, Hader's team affiliation has nothing to do with my belief that his tweets were unacceptable and offensive and should not be shrugged off as him being a young, dumb kid. Just like Turner and Newcomb's teams have nothing to do with my belief that their tweets were unacceptable and offensive and should not be shrugged off as them being a young, dumb kids.
Discussing Hader's tweets on this board
is related to his team because this board has a lot of Brewers fans on it. That's where his team
does matter. In terms of the feelings regarding these tweets, whether the player plays for the Brewers, Cubs, Marlins, Expos, Pilots or Harlem Globetrotters, they're still awful, unacceptable tweets regardless of the player's age.
As much as you try to force it, this isn't a Cubs fans vs Brewers fan debate.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 30, 2018, 12:30:16 PM
When you compare what Hader has gone through to date with what the people who were the target of his vitrol have...Hader hasn't gone through anything yet so on it's surface a standing O doesn't make sense. I get the "he's on my team and he's had a tough week plus he did all the right things for 72 hours" viewpoint but it's a moment in time, let's all wait and see what he actually does going forward to help resolve some of this. Like it or not, he has an obligation now to raise awareness/find a way to improve this issue within his community, let's see how he follows through on this. If he spends the next 5 years trying to raise awareness in the community so some other arbitrary metric, we can give him a standing O.
Thanks for this post. As a huge Brewer fan (and ex-Hader fan), he should not be given a pass in any way. The standing 'O' disgusted me.
He owes society for what he said. As you stated, "If he spends the next 5 years trying to raise awareness in the community so some other arbitrary metric, we can give him a standing O." If/when he performs the works to really make amends, I will be willing to forgive his tweets completely.
Quote from: Jockey on July 30, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
Thanks for this post. As a huge Brewer fan (and ex-Hader fan), he should not be given a pass in any way. The standing 'O' disgusted me.
He owes society for what he said. As you stated, "If he spends the next 5 years trying to raise awareness in the community so some other arbitrary metric, we can give him a standing O." If/when he performs the works to really make amends, I will be willing to forgive his tweets completely.
What does he owe society exactly?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 30, 2018, 01:56:52 PM
What does he owe society exactly?
Working to make things better in a space in which he has been detrimental to society. Perhaps "owing" is a poor choice of words, it's more like if he wants to be recognized as not a garbage human being he needs to do more than simply apologize and/or demonstrate that he is "not that person any more".
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 30, 2018, 01:23:46 PM
To no one's surprise, you're struggling to follow along.
Pakuni: "Let's not make more of this that it deserves because he plays for a different team than the one you cheer for."
Pakuni believed that Cubs fans, specifically in a post to me, were making a big deal out of Hader's posts simply because he plays for the Brewers (ignoring the fact that it was a national story, I might add). In actuality, Hader's team affiliation has nothing to do with my belief that his tweets were unacceptable and offensive and should not be shrugged off as him being a young, dumb kid. Just like Turner and Newcomb's teams have nothing to do with my belief that their tweets were unacceptable and offensive and should not be shrugged off as them being a young, dumb kids.
Discussing Hader's tweets on this board is related to his team because this board has a lot of Brewers fans on it. That's where his team does matter. In terms of the feelings regarding these tweets, whether the player plays for the Brewers, Cubs, Marlins, Expos, Pilots or Harlem Globetrotters, they're still awful, unacceptable tweets regardless of the player's age.
As much as you try to force it, this isn't a Cubs fans vs Brewers fan debate.
Thank you for proving the point I have been making all along.
If it's a Brewers player Cubs fans will be incredibly outraged and offended, so much so that we'll get second by second updates for a couple days after inappropriate Tweets surface. If it's a Nationals or Braves player there will be radio silence because nobody here cares about those teams.
To me, if I am going to conclude that a person is a horrible human being who is racist and homophobic 7 years after he Tweeted some incredibly stupid stuff as a high schooler then I'm going to be upset and outraged regardless of what team he plays for and find it worthy of discussion no matter what.
But like you said, I'm not everyone. So apparently that's just me.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2018, 02:19:30 PM
Thank you for proving the point I have been making all along.
If it's a Brewers player Cubs fans will be incredibly outraged and offended, so much so that we'll get second by second updates for a couple days after inappropriate Tweets surface. If it's a Nationals or Braves player there will be radio silence because nobody here cares about those teams.
To me, if I am going to conclude that a person is a horrible human being who is racist and homophobic 7 years after he Tweeted some incredibly stupid stuff as a high schooler then I'm going to be upset and outraged regardless of what team he plays for and find it worthy of discussion no matter what.
But like you said, I'm not everyone. So apparently that's just me.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
You're either 6-years-old or you just skim through a couple sentences and fill in the rest of people's posts with what you're pretending the words say. I'm thinking it's the latter, but hoping it's the former just so that we can use the "young and dumb" excuse whenever you post something ridiculous.
I actually said that "you're not most people" (you couldn't even get that right!) because most people on here are sane and rational and mature and have reading comprehension skills. None of those things apply to you, particularly when it comes to Chicago sports teams.
I'd attempt to spell things out for you even more clearly but I already tried that and you've already made up your mind on what my posts say (which is vastly different than what they actually say) so, as is usually the case, I'm going to save the board from having to read any more of your illogical garbage and I'll just head off on my way.
Cheers!
Since the wadeworld is mad we don't reference teams that no one cares about:
Georgia State women's soccer player Natalia Martinez made a racial slur on her Instagram. She was suspended and left school over the incident.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 30, 2018, 02:47:42 PM
You're either 6-years-old or you just skim through a couple sentences and fill in the rest of people's posts with what you're pretending the words say. I'm thinking it's the latter, but hoping it's the former just so that we can use the "young and dumb" excuse whenever you post something ridiculous.
I actually said that "you're not most people" (you couldn't even get that right!) because most people on here are sane and rational and mature and have reading comprehension skills. None of those things apply to you, particularly when it comes to Chicago sports teams.
I'd attempt to spell things out for you even more clearly but I already tried that and you've already made up your mind on what my posts say (which is vastly different than what they actually say) so, as is usually the case, I'm going to save the board from having to read any more of your illogical garbage and I'll just head off on my way.
Cheers!
How novel of you. The knight in shining armor that Scoop needs is here to save us! Lol.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 03:09:03 PM
Since the wadeworld is mad we don't reference teams that no one cares about:
Georgia State women's soccer player Natalia Martinez made a racial slur on her Instagram. She was suspended and left school over the incident.
Cool. Not sure what that has to do with the MLB. But good story.
Maybe we'll get our second by second updates on Trea Turner now.
Consistency. That's all I ask.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2018, 03:36:08 PM
Cool. Not sure what that has to do with the MLB. But good story.
Maybe we'll get our second by second updates on Trea Turner now.
Consistency. That's all I ask.
So why don't you tell us about all the pitchers using PED's in the majors? Or is Jake Arrieta the only one? And why did we stop hearing about him when he went to the Phillies?
Consistency. That's all I ask.
Since I don't mention the Braves enough, Brad Brach will wear number 46.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjYa9jfW4AAKtB_.jpg)
The Braves AAA affiliate Gwinnett Stripers had a nice 7-4 over the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Railraiders last night. Luiz Gohara picked up the win. Rough night for Luis Marte who went 0-4 in the leadoff spot.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 30, 2018, 01:56:52 PM
What does he owe society exactly?
Thanks for pointing this out, TAMU. What I meant was that if he expects to be treated with respect, then he owes society. If he doesn't care, then do nothing.
What does he owe? I think he needs to be involved in programs geared toward gays and minorities. He needs to prove his opinions have changed.
Osuna to the Astros, Giles going back the other way.
(https://omegaforums.net/data/attachments/216/216639-ee6ce7473f7a54225081576728ee2032.jpg)
Quote from: mu03eng on July 30, 2018, 02:04:50 PM
Working to make things better in a space in which he has been detrimental to society. Perhaps "owing" is a poor choice of words, it's more like if he wants to be recognized as not a garbage human being he needs to do more than simply apologize and/or demonstrate that he is "not that person any more".
Part of the the problem is that the young and dumb don't consider that "insights" shared on social media remain there forever.
Is there anyone, anywhere who hasn't said or done things as an adolescent or young adult that wouldn't prove embarrassing? That don't reflect the person that they are today? I would wager that if every Scooper's life was "on tape" one could paint a pretty ugly picture by selecting what to release.
I didn't even read Hader's, Newcomb's or Turner's tweets but I'm sure they were awful. So are the absolute worst things that most teenagers say. What exactly do people have to do to prove they're not "the garbage human beings" that the worst (and most immature) of their utterings would suggest? Isn't apologizing and showing through your actions that "you're not that person today" sufficient for forgiveness?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 04:06:09 PM
So why don't you tell us about all the pitchers using PED's in the majors? Or is Jake Arrieta the only one? And why did we stop hearing about him when he went to the Phillies?
Consistency. That's all I ask.
You could scroll back a couple posts of mine and see me posting about Jake Arrieta's steroid use.
Valiant effort kid. Try again.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 30, 2018, 04:49:54 PM
You could scroll back a couple posts of mine and see me posting about Jake Arrieta's steroid use.
Valiant effort kid. Try again.
You didn't answer my question about why you don't post on other pitchers who use PEDs.
Valiant effort kid. Try again.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 04:53:28 PM
You didn't answer my question about why you don't post on other pitchers who use PEDs.
Valiant effort kid. Try again.
Remind me again how I don't talk about Jake Arrieta and PEDs now that he's off the Cubbies anymore.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 28, 2018, 08:34:52 AM
The Brewers just made their move for an infielder. They will not be making another one.
Hernan has very little trade value. He's a 27 year old utility player. Unless he's on the Jake Arrieta schedule for steroids he's never going to be anything more than a utility player.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 28, 2018, 08:46:00 AM
Agreed. But (again, assuming no Arrieta timeframe on some steroid use) Hernan will never be a stud and no team is going to hold back a trade unless the Brewers include Hernan Perez.
DOH!
I've talked about plenty of non-Brewer PED users. Plenty of non-baseball PED users. Heck, Giannis is even on something.
I go over this literally every time someone comes back with a "Yeah but if he wasn't a Cub!" Yeah...no. Lol. I've said Wade, Giannis, called Braun before any test result ever came about, etc.
But sure, you got me TT! You got me! Can't find any posts on Arrieta's steroid use since he left the Cubs for the Phillies!
Lol.
Ok I'll give you you're still on Jake but you just named people that are all relevant to the demographic here.
What non-Chicago and Milwaukee players have you called out?
You're mad we don't call out Trea Turner and Sean Newcomb because we should care about things outside our region, then you list Braun, Arrieta, Wade, and Giannis as examples of you calling out things outside of our region.
Lololololol. We are laughing.
Indians reportedly probing the waters for Bryce Harper. Intriguing.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 06:21:59 PM
Ok I'll give you you're still on Jake but you just named people that are all relevant to the demographic here.
What non-Chicago and Milwaukee players have you called out?
Daniel Murphy a month or so ago.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 06:33:26 PM
You're mad we don't call out Trea Turner and Sean Newcomb because we should care about things outside our region, then you list Braun, Arrieta, Wade, and Giannis as examples of you calling out things outside of our region.
Lololololol. We are laughing.
Who's mad? I'm entertained that you literally couldn't reload Scoop without a Hader update from you and now two players have the exact same situation pop up and all you have to say is "Nobody cares about the Braves and Nationals. Racism is no problem with them!"
What more is there to say? Everyone's thoughts on Hader will be identical to their thoughts on Newcomb and Turner. It's not a different situation.
If a Cub or Rockie or Dback are found to have similar tweets everyone's opinions will be the same. We aren't breaking new ground here.
Really, children?
Trying to drive everyone away from this thread? Your goal is nearly accomplished.
Quote from: ZaLiN on July 30, 2018, 06:34:12 PM
Indians reportedly probing the waters for Bryce Harper. Intriguing.
I am so interested in what Washington does in the next 18ish hours. What they decide could really impact the races.
I am not interested in any of the other BS happening here.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 30, 2018, 07:37:33 PM
I am so interested in what Washington does in the next 18ish hours. What they decide could really impact the races.
I am not interested in any of the other BS happening here.
Amen.
If they trade Harper, shouldn't they also try to trade Murphy and Zimmerman - two guys approaching their mid-thirties??
Quote from: Jockey on July 30, 2018, 07:46:52 PM
Amen.
If they trade Harper, shouldn't they also try to trade Murphy and Zimmerman - two guys approaching their mid-thirties??
Murphy is a free agent after the season as well, along with at least Herrera and Madson.
Is there be anything more Nationals than making it publicly known that Harper is available 18 hrs before the deadline, thereby damaging your relationship with him, your vets, and your fans while not allowing other teams time to put good packages together, and then not trading him anyway?
I'd love to have Herrera, however, it sounds like they are asking for a package much larger than they paid to get him.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 10:12:55 PM
I'd love to have Herrera, however, it sounds like they are asking for a package much larger than they paid to get him.
Shouldn't they? He is basically the last high leverage reliever left ( doesn't seem like Iglesias is available) and there are still a lot of teams that need him.
They'd be crazy to ask for less than they traded for him.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 30, 2018, 04:47:52 PM
Isn't apologizing and showing through your actions that "you're not that person today" sufficient for forgiveness?
Absolutely, he's accomplished the first part, hasn't had sufficient time to accomplish the second.....so we can hold off on standing Os for a bit. If he actively demonstrates through word and deed that he's changed (part of that is outreach) then I'll do a standing O for him myself if required. Until such time, I'll sit quietly and wait.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 31, 2018, 08:10:11 AM
Absolutely, he's accomplished the first part, hasn't had sufficient time to accomplish the second.....so we can hold off on standing Os for a bit. If he actively demonstrates through word and deed that he's changed (part of that is outreach) then I'll do a standing O for him myself if required. Until such time, I'll sit quietly and wait.
Not just that, but consider Lenny's question: "Is there anyone, anywhere who hasn't said or done things as an adolescent or young adult that wouldn't prove embarrassing?"
That means that Hader basically did what most people do - realize that he said dumb things when he was young. Is that standing ovation worthy even if he is showing that he's not that person today? Or is that simply part of the process of growing up?
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 30, 2018, 10:02:46 PM
Is there be anything more Nationals than making it publicly known that Harper is available 18 hrs before the deadline, thereby damaging your relationship with him, your vets, and your fans while not allowing other teams time to put good packages together, and then not trading him anyway?
Harper's played like garbage this season. That's one of the big reasons why the Nats aren't in first. But they're only 5.5 back. Why not see if someone will make a silly offer and otherwise, call it a ploy to light a fire under the team? They need some kind of spark.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 30, 2018, 10:25:39 PM
Shouldn't they? He is basically the last high leverage reliever left ( doesn't seem like Iglesias is available) and there are still a lot of teams that need him.
They'd be crazy to ask for less than they traded for him.
Except when they traded for him, they were trading for 3.5 months of use. Now a team will only get 2 months of use.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 31, 2018, 08:48:57 AM
Except when they traded for him, they were trading for 3.5 months of use. Now a team will only get 2 months of use.
True, but with teams being more desperate, and the supply being dried up, if they decide to trade, him, I can see them getting more. Maybe they won't for the reason you mentioned, but if a team needs a late inning solution with WS experience, well, Herrera is pretty much the only option.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 31, 2018, 08:32:23 AM
Not just that, but consider Lenny's question: "Is there anyone, anywhere who hasn't said or done things as an adolescent or young adult that wouldn't prove embarrassing?"
That means that Hader basically did what most people do - realize that he said dumb things when he was young. Is that standing ovation worthy even if he is showing that he's not that person today? Or is that simply part of the process of growing up?
It's part of the process of growing up, but 99.999% of people don't have to do it in the limelight of every American with a television. He has only himself to blame, but everyone has done something stupid and faced consequences for it. Not everyone has their stupid issues pop back up 7 years after you're out of high school for the world to see.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 31, 2018, 08:32:23 AM
Not just that, but consider Lenny's question: "Is there anyone, anywhere who hasn't said or done things as an adolescent or young adult that wouldn't prove embarrassing?"
That means that Hader basically did what most people do - realize that he said dumb things when he was young. Is that standing ovation worthy even if he is showing that he's not that person today? Or is that simply part of the process of growing up?
I dunno, maybe I'm being naive but I don't think what Hader said was A) is common amongst youth to say out loud B) something youth 7 years ago were actively posting in a public forum. Now you can argue that I'm wrong because now there are at least 3 baseball players with the same issue, but I just don't think the level of vitriol is that common.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 31, 2018, 09:09:56 AM
I dunno, maybe I'm being naive but I don't think what Hader said was A) is common amongst youth to say out loud B) something youth 7 years ago were actively posting in a public forum. Now you can argue that I'm wrong because now there are at least 3 baseball players with the same issue, but I just don't think the level of vitriol is that common.
I do agree with you.
Any y'all ever had a standin' O, hey?
Thanks for being no fun at all Mr. Rizzo.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 10:24:08 AM
Thanks for being no fun at all Mr. Rizzo.
Yeah - there doesn't seem to be much of a plan.
Brewers appear to be one of the most serious contenders for Chris Archer.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 10:57:42 AM
Brewers appear to be one of the most serious contenders for Chris Archer.
I would enjoy this, even moreso for next season than this. If Nelson can get back to what he was last year heading into next season there's a lot to like about the Brewers going forward.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 10:57:42 AM
Brewers appear to be one of the most serious contenders for Chris Archer.
I'm all in on this. As I see it, the Brewers will never be able to afford to pay a top-end starter in free agency. All of the homegrown guys that will contribute during this window are already in the system. So if you look at what you have and don't see a path to having 1-2 guys who can give you a full season of productivity, plus be a playoff workhorse, you gotta spend whatever you gotta spend to get those guys. Looking around the league, its Archer, the Mets kids, and that's probably about it.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 31, 2018, 08:32:23 AM
That means that Hader basically did what most people do - realize that he said dumb things when he was young. Is that standing ovation worthy even if he is showing that he's not that person today? Or is that simply part of the process of growing up?
+1. I don't want the young man branded for life, but a standing O also is over the top.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 10:57:42 AM
Brewers appear to be one of the most serious contenders for Chris Archer.
Seems not to be headed to Crew based on latest info according to JP Morosi. 3 hours.
Quote from: jsglow on July 31, 2018, 11:45:24 AM
Seems not to be headed to Crew based on latest info according to JP Morosi. 3 hours.
Others are saying the Padres and Pirates are the front-runners. I also saw the Braves as the leader. Several reports also say that Archer isn't likely to go anywhere.
Gotta love trade deadline internet rumors!
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 10:24:08 AM
Thanks for being no fun at all Mr. Rizzo.
The Nats should get creative and go the Aroldis Chapman route. Send Harper to Oakland or Pittsburgh (or somewhere who's definitely not going to re-sign him) but assure him that you're getting 2-3 top prospects back and you have $250M earmarked for him this offseason. Harper gets a chance at a ring this season and then he's theoretically coming back to a better Nats team next season.
Sure, you run the risk of losing him but you're running that risk anyway. Worst-case, you end up with a couple highly-rated prospects.
Ramos going to the Phillies, Schoop about to go somewhere.
Also reports now that Archer is "likely to be traded".
After missing out on Zeigler (went to Az), the Cubs appear close to acquiring Brandon Kintzler from Washington.
The Brewers appear likely to get a starter. Could be Archer or Gausman or Gio or Harvey...basically any decent starter out there has been linked to the Brewers today!
Rumors are flying that everything about the pitchers hinges on Stearns who apparently holds a bunch of deals hostage pending a pick he 'might' make last second. Who knows it that's true. But perhaps he's getting the sellers panicky because he'll only do one deal. 50 minutes.
PS. Stearns isn't flawless but I sure like him.
Heyman reporting the front-runners for starters (as of 2 minutes ago)...
Archer to PIT
Gausman to ATL
Harvey to MIL
Dozier to the Dodgers. In a deal 3 years in the making.
Also sounds like Archer and Gausman are done. I'm impressed the Pirates finally made a big move.
Here's hoping we somehow get 2012-2015 Harvey and not 2016-2018 Harvey.
Brewers talking Schoop with Orioles. Move Shaw to SS?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 31, 2018, 02:41:49 PM
Brewers talking Schoop with Orioles. Move Shaw to SS?
Shaw to 1B and Aguilar to CF.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 31, 2018, 02:49:58 PM
Shaw to 1B and Aguilar to CF.
More likely, Shaw to 1B and Aguilar to the bench. Jesus has been hitting at his "career minor leaguer" level since the ASB. Having Thames and Aguilar coming off the bench late in games would actually be interesting. All-or-nothing sluggers as the modern day version of Lenny Harris?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 31, 2018, 02:57:05 PM
More likely, Shaw to 1B and Aguilar to the bench. Jesus has been hitting at his "career minor leaguer" level since the ASB. Having Thames and Aguilar coming off the bench late in games would actually be interesting. All-or-nothing sluggers as the modern day version of Lenny Harris?
I assume you knew I was kidding...
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 31, 2018, 03:03:27 PM
I assume you knew I was kidding...
Yes...although as a fan of a different NL Central team, I'd love to see Aguilar as the Brewers' every day CF.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 31, 2018, 02:40:39 PM
Here's hoping we somehow get 2012-2015 Harvey and not 2016-2018 Harvey.
Harvey stays put - surprising.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 31, 2018, 03:04:42 PM
Yes...although as a fan of a different NL Central team, I'd love to see Aguilar as the Brewers' every day CF.
Same here, thus the joke.
So the Brewers get Schoop after acquiring Moustakas but don't get a starter?
Brewers did get Schoop. Villar going back.
Meadows, Glasnow and another to the Rays for Archer. That is the big move the Pirates haven't been willing to make in the past.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 31, 2018, 03:11:26 PM
Same here, thus the joke.
So the Brewers get Schoop after acquiring Moustakas but don't get a starter?
Rely on the pen and outscoring other teams I guess. They can still get Shields...
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 03:13:36 PM
Rely on the pen and outscoring other teams I guess. They can still get Shields...
Harvey could still be traded in August if he gets through waivers. Given all the teams that were supposedly interested in him, I'd be kind of surprised if he cleared.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 03:13:36 PM
Rely on the pen and outscoring other teams I guess. They can still get Shields...
Sure, and their pen is deep and very good. Yet acquiring Schoop pushes one of the IF bats to the bench, unless they think he can play SS? That would be a rough IF defense. None of Schoop, Moose, or Shaw can play the OF, as far as I know.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on July 31, 2018, 03:21:19 PM
Sure, and their pen is deep and very good. Yet acquiring Schoop pushes one of the IF bats to the bench, unless they think he can play SS? That would be a rough IF defense. None of Schoop, Moose, or Shaw can play the OF, as far as I know.
I think that would be putting it mildly.
Can't find anyone reporting what he cost or what the asking price for Harvey was, but his turnaround since getting to a smaller market team has been good, and his postseason experience would have been greatly appreciated.
Edit: Villar and two prospects
Everything sucks. What purpose does Schoop serve?
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 31, 2018, 03:30:21 PM
Everything sucks. What purpose does Schoop serve?
Can he play short??
Also it does plug a hole if Moose leaves in free agency.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 31, 2018, 02:57:05 PM
More likely, Shaw to 1B and Aguilar to the bench. Jesus has been hitting at his "career minor leaguer" level since the ASB. Having Thames and Aguilar coming off the bench late in games would actually be interesting. All-or-nothing sluggers as the modern day version of Lenny Harris?
Do you advocate sending all players who hit a slump - meaning, basically all players - to the bench?
Even with the slump his OPS is .942. So maybe a better baseball move would be to bench Rizzo, Baez, Russell, Bryant, Swarber, Almora, Happ, Heyward, and Contreras. ;)
On the Schoop deal, I would expect them to try him at SS. He has played some in the past. Admittedly, a middle infield of Schoop and Shaw is a scary thought - although late in games it will switch to Arcia & Schoop.
Milwaukee's defense is actually pretty good. in DRS & UZR, they rank 1st by a wide margin.
Quote from: buckchuckler on July 31, 2018, 03:13:36 PM
Rely on the pen and outscoring other teams I guess. They can still get Shields...
Don't even say that, Chuckler!
Quote from: #bansultan on July 31, 2018, 03:46:21 PM
Can he play short??
Also it does plug a hole if Moose leaves in free agency.
I think he came up as a SS; however, what the Brewers really need him to do is pitch the first 5 innings.
In the hindsight view, both the Pirates and Rays are big losers in that trade today. Two organizations that moved a year too late.
Year ago:
Archer to Cubs for Jimenez/Cease
Quintana or Sale to Pirates for Meadows/Glasnow
Oof.
Quote from: Jockey on July 31, 2018, 03:55:20 PM
Do you advocate sending all players who hit a slump - meaning, basically all players - to the bench?
Even with the slump his OPS is .942. So maybe a better baseball move would be to bench Rizzo, Baez, Russell, Bryant, Swarber, Almora, Happ, Heyward, and Contreras. ;)
On the Schoop deal, I would expect them to try him at SS. He has played some in the past. Admittedly, a middle infield of Schoop and Shaw is a scary thought - although late in games it will switch to Arcia & Schoop.
Milwaukee's defense is actually pretty good. in DRS & UZR, they rank 1st by a wide margin.
Aguilar spent 10 seasons in the minors before having a breakout season last year at age 27 and a huge first half this season. Based on his career history, I would guess that the Brewers' FO isn't entirely sold on him being able to keep up his first half pace. He's not going to hit .170 but he's not going to be a .300-hitter either.
Despite the OPS numbers, would you rather have Aguilar than Rizzo at first for the next two months?
Schoop has played 22 innings at SS in the MLB. He played SS in the minors for a while but made 67 errors in 224 games. The Brewers better hope he can hit.
Quote from: #bansultan on July 31, 2018, 03:46:21 PM
Can he play short??
Also it does plug a hole if Moose leaves in free agency.
Sultan has it. This is about a hot bat now and 2B next year.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 31, 2018, 04:13:59 PM
Schoop has played 22 innings at SS in the MLB. He played SS in the minors for a while but made 67 errors in 224 games. The Brewers better hope he can hit.
5.2 WAR last year. After a slow start this year, he has been as good as last year over the the last 5-6 weeks.
Schoop is a player, big fan.
Quote from: Jockey on July 31, 2018, 04:24:22 PM
5.2 WAR last year. After a slow start this year, he has been as good as last year over the the last 5-6 weeks.
Yep. Every day 3 out of 4 play. Arcia, Moose, Shaw and Schoop. Got an All-Star for the price of a #7 prospect plus the marginal guy he replaced. I'm good.
(I think it's clear Moose isn't back next year.)
Saw a tweet from Haudricourt that Arcia is going to play every day and that one of the other IFs will sit. Not sure if that's true or not.
Quote from: MUDish on July 31, 2018, 04:12:20 PM
In the hindsight view, both the Pirates and Rays are big losers in that trade today. Two organizations that moved a year too late.
Year ago:
Archer to Cubs for Jimenez/Cease
Quintana or Sale to Pirates for Meadows/Glasnow
Oof.
Oof if it's Sale, not if it's Quintana - the two are not comparable
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 31, 2018, 04:29:13 PM
Oof if it's Sale, not if it's Quintana - the two are not comparable
I think you're missing the context here. Throw in the awful return they got for Gerrit Cole, and the Pirates end of the trade today looks even worse.
I saw Brewers are 28th in GB rate, so their good defense is mostly due to a strong outfield rather than a strong infield. Could be why they are willing to sacrifice some defense there in order to upgrade offense.
Shoop is a better defender than Villar, Shaw (obviously), or Saladino at 2nd. Another right-handed bat will be nice.
Gives some flexibility for next year - don't pick up Moustaka's option (assuming he will opt in) and it'll net out to $8M in savings or so, or trade Shaw or flip Shoop in the winter.
Not big on a rotation with Miley / Peralta as the 4/5, but kept all of the prospects I was high on. Always a chance to pick up a Harvey in August trades if needed.
Lineup still has a hole with Arcia and the catcher's spot, but fingers crossed they'll show some improvement.
It comes down I guess to what you think of Schoop, and I'm not nearly as big of a fan as most here. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see this deadline as a success for the Brewers:
In: Out:
Rental Soria Medeiros (#13 prospect)
Rental Mous (w/ position change) Perez (just a guy)
1.5 seasons Schoop ($10M next year) Phillips (#10 prospect)
Lopez (fringy top 30 prospect - had been as high as #2)
Ortiz (prospect #7)
Carmona (prospect #14)
2.5 seasons Villar ($3M next year)
I just don't see it. Looking at the O's return, you arguably could have used Medeiros, Lopez and the $7M next year that the the Braves are absorbing in O'Day, and gotten Gausman - who is no worse a candidate for positive regression than Schoop, is under arbitration through 2020 and plays a position the Brewers actually need!
Quote from: MUDish on July 31, 2018, 04:51:22 PM
I think you're missing the context here. Throw in the awful return they got for Gerrit Cole, and the Pirates end of the trade today looks even worse.
Didn't know that was your context - my point is that Archer may turn out to be every bit as good (or better) than Quintana. Of course he's not close to Sale.
Brewers got no help where they needed it most - starting rotation. Looks like they decided to go with the 12" softball plan - all mashers. Hope they have a lot of fly ball/strike out pitchers.
The Brewers starters are 8th in the MLB in ERA and 1st in the NL in quality starts.
The Brewers don't ask their starters to carry them. They ask them to go 6 solid innings and then hand it over to a stacked bullpen.
Stearns has shown he's willing to "ignore" team "needs" and load up in positions that are already "loaded" and it has paid off.
Quote from: wadesworld on July 31, 2018, 07:08:04 PM
The Brewers starters are 8th in the MLB in ERA and 1st in the NL in quality starts.
The Brewers don't ask their starters to carry them. They ask them to go 6 solid innings and then hand it over to a stacked bullpen.
Stearns has shown he's willing to "ignore" team "needs" and load up in positions that are already "loaded" and it has paid off.
Not sure of your source but according to Baseball Reference, only the Reds and Rays have fewer Quality Starts than the Brewers' 34.
It would be great if MLB would show the angles they have in New York that neither the home and visiting teams have.
Addison Russell was the tying run with no out and called out on third despite no angle on either broadcast showing him undisputably off the bag.
There was a similar call in the Brewers game Monday where Cain was ruled safe at first base yet the call got overturned despite no angle showing he undisputably got tagged.
It's not that hard to get the New York angle to both teams broadcasts.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 31, 2018, 08:57:24 PM
Not sure of your source but according to Baseball Reference, only the Reds and Rays have fewer Quality Starts than the Brewers' 34.
ESPN's got em listed second in baseball, nine behind Houston - http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/sort/qualityStarts/order/true (http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/sort/qualityStarts/order/true)
That being said, they're 15th in IP by starters, so while that lends to Wades point, it also speaks to the miles on the bullpen. Bullpen has the 7th most IP in baseball, with the Dodgers in 5th and the Cubs in 8th as the only winning teams close by. Rest of the teams that lead in bullpen innings are among the worst in baseball.
Follow up... where do these New York angles come from? If neither team's broadcast has them, who is operating these cameras?
I agree with both of you that ESPN and Baseball Reference have very different numbers for quality starts.
What would cause that discrepancy?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 31, 2018, 09:15:05 PM
Follow up... where do these New York angles come from? If neither team's broadcast has them, who is operating these cameras?
I'm typically not a conspiracy guy but I honestly don't believe they have other angles. Putting that out there just takes the pressure off when they make awful calls like the ones mentioned earlier.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/league/nl/sort/qualityStarts/order/true
I heard it on the radio today (and believe somebody mentioned that the Brewers led the MLB in QS but it was at least a month ago), and ESPN has them as #1 in QS in the NL. Not sure what the baseballreference number is from.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 31, 2018, 09:18:40 PM
I agree with both of you that ESPN and Baseball Reference have very different numbers for quality starts.
What would cause that discrepancy?
Interesting. Do they define Quality Starts differently? I thought it was a standard 6+ IP, 3 or fewer runs.
BR: "Pitcher pitched at least 6 innings and allowed 3 or fewer earned runs in a start."
Fox Sports also lists the Brewers near the bottom of the league with 34 QS.
https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/team-stats?season=2018&category=PITCHING&sort=6&time=0 (https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/team-stats?season=2018&category=PITCHING&sort=6&time=0)
Doing a review on Fantrax:
Chase has 9.
Guerra has 8.
Chacin has 7.
Davies has 3.
Peralta has 3.
Miley has 2.
Suter has 2.
34 QS.
Boy, Kintzler was really holding the Nats back apparently.
I think CC goes with the hot hands and/or match ups for the IF. It's a home run and strike out league plus they shift so much it's not going to be a huge liability.
Basically it's the Wojo approach I can't fix the D so I'm going all in on offense.
Lastly, this hedging the bet on Moose since he'll leave in FA
Quote from: MUDish on July 31, 2018, 04:12:20 PM
In the hindsight view, both the Pirates and Rays are big losers in that trade today. Two organizations that moved a year too late.
Year ago:
Archer to Cubs for Jimenez/Cease
Quintana or Sale to Pirates for Meadows/Glasnow
Oof.
I don't quite get what you are saying here. The return the Rays got seems quite comparable to what the Sox got for Q. Both Meadows and Glasnow have been rated as top 10-15 prospects, maybe they have fallen off a bit, but they are less risky than Eloy and Cease as they are both ready right now to contribute at the major league level. The Rays aren't doing a complete teardown and maybe wouldn't be as big on getting guys that were in A ball at the time, like Eloy and Cease were.
For the Pirates, the return is again, pretty similar. I would prefer Q to Archer, because he is (or at least was) more predictable. But Archer comes with an additional year of control, and objectively better stuff. But they are remarkably similar pitchers in terms of results.
At this point, as a Sox fan, I am much happier with the return the Sox got for Q, that if they had gotten Meadows and Glasnow, but at the beginning of last year, Meadows and Glasnow were certainly the higher rated duo, and likely rated higher at the All Star break, heck, Cease is just starting to get into top 50 discussion now, and Glasnow was a consensus top 10 guy.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 31, 2018, 06:04:52 PM
It comes down I guess to what you think of Schoop, and I'm not nearly as big of a fan as most here. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see this deadline as a success for the Brewers:
In: Out:
Rental Soria Medeiros (#13 prospect)
Rental Mous (w/ position change) Perez (just a guy)
1.5 seasons Schoop ($10M next year) Phillips (#10 prospect)
Lopez (fringy top 30 prospect - had been as high as #2)
Ortiz (prospect #7)
Carmona (prospect #14)
2.5 seasons Villar ($3M next year)
I just don't see it. Looking at the O's return, you arguably could have used Medeiros, Lopez and the $7M next year that the the Braves are absorbing in O'Day, and gotten Gausman - who is no worse a candidate for positive regression than Schoop, is under arbitration through 2020 and plays a position the Brewers actually need!
It is very weird what the Brewers did. They couldn't get what it seemed like they clearly needed, so they have a bit of square peg/ round hole going on right now. I think they have made themselves better, but it will be interesting to see how it works out.
And Soria isn't necessarily a rental. He has a 10 Mil option for next year. Not an unreasonable rate for how he has pitched, but likely too expensive for an 7th or 8th inning guy.
Wade Miley seems to think the Brewers' starting pitching is just fine ;D
Tied for first, les go!
And before any Cub fans say it, yes I know the Cubs are up two in the loss column.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on July 31, 2018, 11:33:15 PM
Wade Miley seems to think the Brewers' starting pitching is just fine ;D
Tied for first, les go!
And before any Cub fans say it, yes I know the Cubs are up two in the loss column.
Plus
Guaranteed to finish the road trip over .500.
Yelich kept his hitting streak going.
Maybe most importantly, Jimmy threw a bupen session and didn't have any discomfort.
Reasons for optimism. Gotta keep it going.
Surprised and pleased that Counsell went with Jeffress to close. I hope he does it more.
So here's my comment on the quality starts issue. The Crew has at least 7 quality relievers in the pen that range from 'very good' to 'elite'. In that list in alphabetical order: Albers, Burnes, Hader, Jeffress, Jennings, Knebel and Soria. Several of those guys are potential multiple innings guys. So on any given night they are likely to cover a minimum of 3 up to 5 innings utilizing on average 3-4 of the 7. Those guys need regular work to stay as sharp as they are so the next night the 'Blue squad' is replaced by the 'Gold squad'. And I'd argue that from the 6th inning on, no team has better pitching depth or quality.
Crew starters need to go a solid 5 on average to make this strategy work. So no 'quality start' is ever really needed. They actually happen by accident, like last night, when a guy is totally dialed in.
Oh yeah, that also means that the Crew only needs the pitcher to bat once or twice, tops. Sucks to have guys like Braun, Thames, Moose or Schoop covering the rest of those ABs every night. And it also sucks that gold glover types like Arcia can cover Short 2-3 innings late and perhaps never take a swing. The days of Jim Palmer are over boys. Situational baseball at its finest.
Will it work in the playoffs? Don't know. But for now it's modern baseball over the final 55.
Quote from: jsglow on August 01, 2018, 10:42:36 AM
So here's my comment on the quality starts issue. The Crew has at least 7 quality relievers in the pen that range from 'very good' to 'elite'. In that list in alphabetical order: Albers, Burnes, Hader, Jeffress, Jennings, Knebel and Soria. Several of those guys are potential multiple innings guys. So on any given night they are likely to cover a minimum of 3 up to 5 innings utilizing on average 3-4 of the 7. Those guys need regular work to stay as sharp as they are so the next night the 'Blue squad' is replaced by the 'Gold squad'. And I'd argue that from the 6th inning on, no team has better pitching depth or quality.
Crew starters need to go a solid 5 on average to make this strategy work. So no 'quality start' is ever really needed. They actually happen by accident, like last night, when a guy is totally dialed in.
Oh yeah, that also means that the Crew only needs the pitcher to bat once or twice, tops. Sucks to have guys like Braun, Thames, Moose or Schoop covering the rest of those ABs every night. And it also sucks that gold glover types like Arcia can cover Short 2-3 innings late and perhaps never take a swing. The days of Jim Palmer are over boys. Situational baseball at its finest.
Will it work in the playoffs? Don't know. But for now it's modern baseball over the final 55.
This strategy will burn out a bullpen.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 01, 2018, 10:58:44 AM
This strategy will burn out a bullpen.
Will it though? The league average for IP/GS is 5.5. Right now the Brewers sit at 5.3, just behind the Cubs and Dodgers at 5.4. The difference between the Brewers, is like glow said, they have 7 guys they can rotate so you are not using Jeffress every day. You can use them once every couple or 3 days and still feel confident in the bullpen. I was on the side of getting an ace type pitcher for a potential wild card game would be great, but the make up of their team, to me, did not meant they needed one at any cost.
*This strategy can hurt them if they have a game go deep into extra innings when you might have to use 5-6 of those guys, some for multiple innings. But really is that any different than any other team that has to go deep into extras?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 01, 2018, 10:58:44 AM
This strategy will burn out a bullpen.
Nope. Not with that much depth. Guys like Hader, Jeffress and Jennings are in the low 50s in terms of innings.
Quote from: NWarsh on August 01, 2018, 11:45:30 AM
Will it though? The league average for IP/GS is 5.5. Right now the Brewers sit at 5.3, just behind the Cubs and Dodgers at 5.4. The difference between the Brewers, is like glow said, they have 7 guys they can rotate so you are not using Jeffress every day. You can use them once every couple or 3 days and still feel confident in the bullpen. I was on the side of getting an ace type pitcher for a potential wild card game would be great, but the make up of their team, to me, did not meant they needed one at any cost.
*This strategy can hurt them if they have a game go deep into extra innings when you might have to use 5-6 of those guys, some for multiple innings. But really is that any different than any other team that has to go deep into extras?
The way the Crew has dealt with that is to cycle relievers #8,9,10.... through the minors. Pitch a few extended innings on a long night, catch your plane back to Colorado. Those top 3-4 especially are treated like the gold they are.
Quote from: jsglow on August 01, 2018, 12:10:01 PM
Nope. Not with that much depth. Guys like Hader, Jeffress and Jennings are in the low 50s in terms of innings.
Jeffress has never pitched more than 68 innings in a MLB season (currently at 51.2) and Jennings never more than 62.2 (currently 51.2). Soria should help ease their workloads but they're getting close to unchartered territory.
For reference, the Cubs and Phillies have no relief pitchers with 50+ IP at this point. The Rockies, Braves and Dodgers have 1. The Dbacks have 2 (one is their long man, McFarland).
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 01, 2018, 12:29:24 PM
Jeffress has never pitched more than 68 innings in a MLB season (currently at 51.2) and Jennings never more than 62.2 (currently 51.2). Soria should help ease their workloads but they're getting close to unchartered territory.
For reference, the Cubs and Phillies have no relief pitchers with 50+ IP at this point. The Rockies, Braves and Dodgers have 1. The Dbacks have 2 (one is their long man, McFarland).
And even with the Cubs having no relief pitchers over 50 innings, I am concerned about their workload.
I think you guys might be underestimating how these workloads can affect a team at the end of the season and in the playoffs.
Anyone have Cub tickets for Friday's game v Padres they want to unload?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 01, 2018, 12:29:24 PM
Jeffress has never pitched more than 68 innings in a MLB season (currently at 51.2) and Jennings never more than 62.2 (currently 51.2). Soria should help ease their workloads but they're getting close to unchartered territory.
For reference, the Cubs and Phillies have no relief pitchers with 50+ IP at this point. The Rockies, Braves and Dodgers have 1. The Dbacks have 2 (one is their long man, McFarland).
Honestly not worried at all. Heck, half the board think that Hader and Burnes should be starters logging 175. And Knebel missed 2 months.
I'm interested in seeing how the Brewers line it up tonight.
Edit: Just checked. Schoop at 2B, Perez at SS, Moose at 3B, Shaw sitting.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 01, 2018, 07:40:29 PM
I'm interested in seeing how the Brewers line it up tonight.
Edit: Just checked. Schoop at 2B, Perez at SS, Moose at 3B, Shaw sitting.
I think just one of Moose or Shaw will start against lefties most of the time (Hill/Kershaw).
I expect both to be there against righties.
The National League only has 4 teams below .500. I'm too lazy to look it up, but that seems like a rarity.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on August 02, 2018, 10:41:23 AM
The National League only has 4 teams below .500. I'm too lazy to look it up, but that seems like a rarity.
Yeah but those 4, man :)
Quote from: mu03eng on August 02, 2018, 10:47:36 AM
Yeah but those 4, man :)
The Marlins, Mets and Padres, yes.
The Reds are actually 41-38 since May 1.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on August 02, 2018, 10:41:23 AM
The National League only has 4 teams below .500. I'm too lazy to look it up, but that seems like a rarity.
In 2017, the NL East alone had 4 teams below .500.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 02, 2018, 10:58:35 AM
In 2017, the NL East alone had 4 teams below .500.
The AL Central will probably do it this year.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 02, 2018, 10:58:35 AM
In 2017, the NL East alone had 4 teams below .500.
The strike/lockout in 1994 prevented MLB from having its first sub-500 team make the playoffs. The Rangers were in first place in the West with a 52-62 record. I doubt they'd have managed 29-19 the rest of the way to get to .500.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on August 02, 2018, 10:41:23 AM
The National League only has 4 teams below .500. I'm too lazy to look it up, but that seems like a rarity.
I've been wondering if the Yanks, Sox, and Astros are really that great or just playing an overall weak AL. Probably a mixture of both.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 02, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
I've been wondering if the Yanks, Sox, and Astros are really that great or just playing an overall weak AL. Probably a mixture of both.
You can probably remove the Astros (sidenote: the Astros have been pretty lit up in the media for acquiring Osuna. Much more so than I remember with the Yankees or Cubs), just by division, the AL West is actually pretty good. The Central is completely miserable and the East is about average, except for how just horribly rotten the O's have been.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 02, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
I've been wondering if the Yanks, Sox, and Astros are really that great or just playing an overall weak AL. Probably a mixture of both.
Good point. One of them is getting to the Series. And if they get crushed by their NL opponent we'll know the answer.
Quote from: jsglow on August 02, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
Good point. One of them is getting to the Series. And if they get crushed by their NL opponent we'll know the answer.
The Indians absolutely have a shot.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 02, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
I've been wondering if the Yanks, Sox, and Astros are really that great or just playing an overall weak AL. Probably a mixture of both.
The American League is a little down this year. That said, they have been the dominant league for a long, long time. Since inter league play began in 1997, the AL has won that contest 17 of 21 years, including the last 14 in a row. All told the AL was 316 games over .500 vs the NL beginning this year. In that same time the AL has won 18 All Star games to the NL's 3. World Series are closer, 11-10 in the AL's favor - but AL teams are 64-52 in WS games in that period. So when NL fans call the AL "weak", I smile.
Since our bullpen talk 2 games ago...
Cubs relievers: 7.2 IP, 12 H, 6 ER, 1 BSv, 1 Loss
Brewers relievers*: 4.2 IP, 14 H, 11 ER, 1 Loss
Maybe we should all be concerned ;)
* - not counting position players who pitched
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 03, 2018, 07:54:37 AM
Since our bullpen talk 2 games ago...
Cubs relievers: 7.2 IP, 12 H, 6 ER, 1 BSv, 1 Loss
Brewers relievers*: 4.2 IP, 14 H, 11 ER, 1 Loss
Maybe we should all be concerned ;)
* - not counting position players who pitched
At lease the innings are down.....
Quote from: NWarsh on August 03, 2018, 08:22:46 AM
At lease the innings are down.....
And in the Brewers case Burnes is probably the only reliever who will see meaningful action in games that are still in the balance that gave up any runs the past 2 games, unless it's an extra innings game and you're running thin on pitchers.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 02, 2018, 08:28:14 PM
The American League is a little down this year. That said, they have been the dominant league for a long, long time. Since inter league play began in 1997, the AL has won that contest 17 of 21 years, including the last 14 in a row. All told the AL was 316 games over .500 vs the NL beginning this year. In that same time the AL has won 18 All Star games to the NL's 3. World Series are closer, 11-10 in the AL's favor - but AL teams are 64-52 in WS games in that period. So when NL fans call the AL "weak", I smile.
The Yankees, Astros and Red Sox have a .649 winning percentage vs. the NL, and a .652 winning percentage against the AL. I think they're just good.
The NL has won 52% of interleague games this year (115-106), the equivalent of 84-78 over a 162 game season for a single team, which is pretty good. Season is not over but with way more AL teams selling off because they have no chance, the gap figures to get bigger rather than smaller. The last 14 years that Lenny mentions are shown below:
2004 American 252 127 125 .504
2005 American 252 136 116 .540
2006 American 252 154 98 .611
2007 American 252 137 115 .544
2008 American 252 149 103 .591
2009 American 252 138 114 .548
2010 American 252 134 118 .532
2011 American 252 131 121 .520
2012 American 252 142 110 .563
2013 American 300 154 146 .513
2014 American 300 163 137 .543
2015 American 300 167 133 .557
2016 American 300 165 135 .550
2017 American 300 160 140 .533
In 2006 the difference between the American League and the National League was about the same as the difference between the National League and Triple A. (The record translates to 99-63 for a 162 game season). But that's the beauty of baseball. The St. Louis Cardinals, who finished 83-78 in perhaps the weakest NL ever, a team that undoubtedly would have finished under .500 in the AL (they were 5-10 in interleague play and were barely over .500 overall), rolled to the World Series title in 5 games over Detroit, who finished 95-67 (including 15-3 against the NL).
These things are cyclical and I think the NL has finally caught up and could widen the gap for the next couple years.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 03, 2018, 07:54:37 AM
Since our bullpen talk 2 games ago...
Cubs relievers: 7.2 IP, 12 H, 6 ER, 1 BSv, 1 Loss
Brewers relievers*: 4.2 IP, 14 H, 11 ER, 1 Loss
Maybe we should all be concerned ;)
* - not counting position players who pitched
Since the concern brought up was innings pitched in a season, here are the total innings pitched by the players who gave up runs in the past two games for the Brewers:
Taylor Williams: 42.2
Matt Albers: 30.0
Corbin Burnes: 9.0
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 03, 2018, 09:16:41 AM
Since the concern brought up was innings pitched in a season, here are the total innings pitched by the players who gave up runs in the past two games for the Brewers:
Taylor Williams: 42.2
Matt Albers: 30.0
Corbin Burnes: 9.0
It doesn't all come down to innings and you're not wrong. However...
Williams threw 51.3 innings (MLB & AAA) last season after missing both 2015 and 2016 recovery from Tommy John surgery.
Albers missed 6 weeks with a shoulder injury and has allowed 8 ER in 1.1 IP since his return (3 games). He was mentioned in glow's post as part of the bullpen depth.
Burnes also pitched 78.2 innings in AAA, where he's been a starter so innings shouldn't be a big concern for him.
Overworked bullpens aren't specific to the Brewers and I'm not trying to pick on the Brewers. There are a lot of relievers around the league that are overworked and many are going to wear down in August and September. For all the new ways of thinking about starting closers and "bullpen games," etc, starting pitching still matters A LOT for teams in contention.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 03, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
Albers missed 6 weeks with a shoulder injury and has allowed 8 ER in 1.1 IP since his return (3 games). He was mentioned in glow's post as part of the bullpen depth.
As someone that has watched quite a bit of Matt Albers, I would hate to rely on him on a playoff caliber team. In my experience watching him, he was defined by stretches of dominance, and stretches of being battered like a perch on Friday.
His career ERA is about a run and a half higher in the second half. That is an immense difference. His BAA, SLG and OPS all rise significantly in the second half. He has a track record of 13 seasons and over 500 appearances. None of those things state a case for Albers being a dominant (or anything other than average at best) reliever.
That is why I think Soria was such a great add for the Brewers. Because between Knebel, Hader, Jeffress, and Soria, they have bullpen depth that can dominate in a playoff game from the 5th or 6th inning. Still think they should have gotten a starter though... Happ, Lynn, Hamels... none were that expensive. And of course, Archer would have been instantly penciled in as a Game 1 or Wild Card starter. But that time has passed.
Go cubs
Presented without comment
http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/08/03/the-throw-beat-him-by-a-mile-but-el-mago-does-it-again/ (http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/08/03/the-throw-beat-him-by-a-mile-but-el-mago-does-it-again/)
Quote from: MUEng92 on August 03, 2018, 04:34:21 PM
Presented without comment
http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/08/03/the-throw-beat-him-by-a-mile-but-el-mago-does-it-again/ (http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/08/03/the-throw-beat-him-by-a-mile-but-el-mago-does-it-again/)
As of today he's a legit MVP candidate.
Quote from: MUEng92 on August 03, 2018, 04:34:21 PM
Presented without comment
http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/08/03/the-throw-beat-him-by-a-mile-but-el-mago-does-it-again/ (http://www.bleachernation.com/2018/08/03/the-throw-beat-him-by-a-mile-but-el-mago-does-it-again/)
It's cool, but not worth the risk of making the first out at 3rd base. (Addison Russell just did that to lose a game three days ago).
Just a beautiful day at the Friendly Confines. And, a W.
Effing 2 hour commute to Burr Ridge.
2 effing hours.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on August 03, 2018, 07:09:36 PM
It's cool, but not worth the risk of making the first out at 3rd base. (Addison Russell just did that to lose a game three days ago).
1) Russell was safe. No idea how that call was overturned.
2) They didn't lose because of that.
3) Maddon doesn't care about making the first out (or third) at third base. He likes aggressive base-running.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 03, 2018, 08:11:48 PM
3) Maddon doesn't care about making the first out (or third) at third base. He likes aggressive base-running.
I don't believe this is true because anyone who thinks this way lacks any understanding about probabilities within the game. A sabermatrician like Theo would never hire a guy that dense.
Being aggressive is fine. Being aggressive when it hurts your team's chances to score runs is just being reckless - and stupid.
deGrom WAR 6.5
deGrom wins 5
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 02, 2018, 08:28:14 PM
The American League is a little down this year. That said, they have been the dominant league for a long, long time. Since inter league play began in 1997, the AL has won that contest 17 of 21 years, including the last 14 in a row. All told the AL was 316 games over .500 vs the NL beginning this year. In that same time the AL has won 18 All Star games to the NL's 3. World Series are closer, 11-10 in the AL's favor - but AL teams are 64-52 in WS games in that period. So when NL fans call the AL "weak", I smile.
What does any of that have to do with this year?
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 04, 2018, 12:50:30 PM
What does any of that have to do with this year?
It means that an overwhelming long term trend is still in place that says the AL is superior and chances are that the NL's inter league edge this year is an aberration. Maybe not, of course, but the AL already won the All Star game and I wouldn't spend any money you have bet on the NL in the WS just yet.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 04, 2018, 05:34:35 PM
It means that an overwhelming long term trend is still in place that says the AL is superior and chances are that the NL's inter league edge this year is an aberration. Maybe not, of course, but the AL already won the All Star game and I wouldn't spend any money you have bet on the NL in the WS just yet.
[/quote
So there's a few good teams in the al and a lot of bad ones this year? Okay? I'm super confused on what 2016 has to do with this year and what the allstar game has anything to do with.
Are we sure a scooper isn't running the Brewers twitter account?
https://twitter.com/bleachernation/status/1026110271184691201?s=21
(https://twitter.com/bleachernation/status/1026110271184691201?s=21)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 05, 2018, 09:49:24 AM
Are we sure a scooper isn't running the Brewers twitter account?
https://twitter.com/bleachernation/status/1026110271184691201?s=21
(https://twitter.com/bleachernation/status/1026110271184691201?s=21)
I'm 99% certain they were both joking around. Look at the Rockies entire account.
Put it this way, no one running a MLB twitter account is going to legitimately say this:
https://twitter.com/Rockies/status/1025939205891883008
Feel better? As every kindergarten teacher says, "You don't have to blow out someone else's candle to make yours shine brighter."
Two teams exchanging jabs at each other on social media. How inappropriate.
I have 3 observations:
1) The Crws is going to benefit from a lighter than normal schedule the rest of the way. Only 48 games with at least one off date every week. They are almost at a point where they could go to a 4 man rotation. I'd expect Freddy to get skipped a couple of times to keep his innings from getting too high.
2) Has Yelich upped his game so much since the All-Star break that he's become an MVP candidate? I haven't studied it but it's not crazy talk.
3) Despite what I said 2-3 pages ago, Albers might find himself DFAed if he doesn't get this squared up soon. If Couns can't count on him with a 6 run lead......
Quote from: jsglow on August 05, 2018, 11:39:24 AM
I have 3 observations:
1) The Crws is going to benefit from a lighter than normal schedule the rest of the way. Only 48 games with at least one off date every week. They are almost at a point where they could go to a 4 man rotation. I'd expect Freddy to get skipped a couple of times to keep his innings from getting too high.
2) Has Yelich upped his game so much since the All-Star break that he's become an MVP candidate? I haven't studied it but it's not crazy talk.
3) Despite what I said 2-3 pages ago, Albers might find himself DFAed if he doesn't get this squared up soon. If Couns can't count on him with a 6 run lead......
2) Unquestionably.
3) Yeah once he got hurt and the Brewers traded for Soria Albers lost any meaningful innings he was going to see except for when the bullpen was spent and nobody else is available.
Quote from: jsglow on August 05, 2018, 11:39:24 AM
3) Despite what I said 2-3 pages ago, Albers might find himself DFAed if he doesn't get this squared up soon. If Couns can't count on him with a 6 run lead......
I think the Lyles addition might mean the end of Matt Albers in Milwaukee
Quote from: SaveOD238 on August 05, 2018, 04:12:15 PM
I think the Lyles addition might mean the end of Matt Albers in Milwaukee
Yep. They didn't make that move for nothing but it might wait until Williams is off IR.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 04, 2018, 09:51:07 PM
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 04, 2018, 05:34:35 PM
It means that an overwhelming long term trend is still in place that says the AL is superior and chances are that the NL's inter league edge this year is an aberration. Maybe not, of course, but the AL already won the All Star game and I wouldn't spend any money you have bet on the NL in the WS just yet.
[/quote
So there's a few good teams in the al and a lot of bad ones this year? Okay? I'm super confused on what 2016 has to do with this year and what the allstar game has anything to do with.
Sorry you're super confused.
Mike Moustakas: Good Guy
https://twitter.com/monkeyzmonkeydo/status/1025832589108674561 (https://twitter.com/monkeyzmonkeydo/status/1025832589108674561)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 06, 2018, 09:53:56 AM
Mike Moustakas: Good Guy
https://twitter.com/monkeyzmonkeydo/status/1025832589108674561 (https://twitter.com/monkeyzmonkeydo/status/1025832589108674561)
Love seeing stories about professional athletes being at normal everyday places. Saw Christian Yelich at the Public Market in June. Very approachable guy, not ego driven at all.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 06, 2018, 09:53:56 AM
Mike Moustakas: Good Guy
https://twitter.com/monkeyzmonkeydo/status/1025832589108674561 (https://twitter.com/monkeyzmonkeydo/status/1025832589108674561)
Either he produces a receipt for the Sharpe, or I'm calling BS.
Right now, Juan Soto is the best teenage hitter in baseball history. Better than Cobb, Ott, Harper, Mantle and the rest.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 30, 2018, 06:40:33 PM
What more is there to say? Everyone's thoughts on Hader will be identical to their thoughts on Newcomb and Turner. It's not a different situation.
If a Cub or Rockie or Dback are found to have similar tweets everyone's opinions will be the same. We aren't breaking new ground here.
oh. so we were breaking new ground when jacob nottinghams tweets surfaced then? people had different thoughts about his tweets but not the braves or nats. makes sense.
you in particular and all of your cubs fans friends are full of crap if you really want people to believe that if turner played for the brewers you wouldnt have had a post out not 15 seconds after those tweets surfaced.
Quote from: WithoutBias on August 06, 2018, 06:37:02 PM
oh. so we were breaking new ground when jacob nottinghams tweets surfaced then? people had different thoughts about his tweets but not the braves or nats. makes sense.
you in particular and all of your cubs fans friends are full of crap if you really want people to believe that if turner played for the brewers you wouldnt have had a post out not 15 seconds after those tweets surfaced.
You guys are so juvenile. All this social media bs. It is a joke. Your teams don't even have legit drug kingpins to revere.
Quote from: Jockey on August 06, 2018, 05:41:05 PM
Right now, Juan Soto is the best teenage hitter in baseball history. Better than Cobb, Ott, Harper, Mantle and the rest.
He is unreal. To me the most impressive part of his game is the plate discipline. Such a rare skill for a young player, much moreso for a guy that young. Usually 19 year olds are struggling with the zone in the fire league.
Quote from: Jockey on August 06, 2018, 05:41:05 PM
Right now, Juan Soto is the best teenage hitter in baseball history. Better than Cobb, Ott, Harper, Mantle and the rest.
As always, we'll see what this means 5 and 10 and 15 years from now.
There have been lots of phenoms in baseball history. Some take off, some fall off, some disappear.
Even some who take off hit a wall. Ten years in, Frank Thomas seemed poised to hold every record. Look at Albert Pujols' stats 10 years in. Hell, even Andruw Jones.
I hope this kid has a fine career. Two words: We'll see!
Quote from: MU82 on August 06, 2018, 09:35:39 PM
As always, we'll see what this means 5 and 10 and 15 years from now.
There have been lots of phenoms in baseball history. Some take off, some fall off, some disappear.
Even some who take off hit a wall. Ten years in, Frank Thomas seemed poised to hold every record. Look at Albert Pujols' stats 10 years in. Hell, even Andruw Jones.
I hope this kid has a fine career. Two words: We'll see!
Completely agree.
I was just putting what he is doing this year in perspective. At 19, Robin Yount was Jordy Mercer. He ended up being a two time MVP and in the HOF.
Quote from: MU82 on August 06, 2018, 09:35:39 PM
Even some who take off hit a wall. Ten years in, Frank Thomas seemed poised to hold every record.
He's a Hall of Famer. What more did you want?
Thoughts on Baez as MVP? I think you can make a pretty good case for him.
From Bleacher Nation: Baez is up to .302/.335/.594 with a 141 wRC+, which ranks 7th in the NL, and that slugging percentage is number one. Consider that Baez also rates as the third best baserunner in the league (behind only the ridiculous Billy Hamilton and Trea Turner), and also plays stellar defense at multiple positions.
Couple that with the facts he is currently on the team with the best NL record and Rizzo and Bryant have been bad/injured.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Thoughts on Baez as MVP? I think you can make a pretty good case for him.
From Bleacher Nation: Baez is up to .302/.335/.594 with a 141 wRC+, which ranks 7th in the NL, and that slugging percentage is number one. Consider that Baez also rates as the third best baserunner in the league (behind only the ridiculous Billy Hamilton and Trea Turner, the racist), the best slider and tagger in baseball history, and also plays stellar defense at multiple positions.
Couple that with the facts he is currently on the team with the best NL record and Rizzo and Bryant have been bad/injured.
FIFY.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Thoughts on Baez as MVP? I think you can make a pretty good case for him.
From Bleacher Nation: Baez is up to .302/.335/.594 with a 141 wRC+, which ranks 7th in the NL, and that slugging percentage is number one. Consider that Baez also rates as the third best baserunner in the league (behind only the ridiculous Billy Hamilton and Trea Turner), is the best slider of all time, and also plays stellar defense at multiple positions.
Couple that with the facts he is currently on the team with the best NL record and Rizzo and Bryant have been bad/injured.
FIFY again.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Thoughts on Baez as MVP? I think you can make a pretty good case for him.
From Bleacher Nation: Baez is up to .302/.335/.594 with a 141 wRC+, which ranks 7th in the NL, and that slugging percentage is number one. Consider that Baez also rates as the third best baserunner in the league (behind only the ridiculous Billy Hamilton and Trea Turner), and also plays stellar defense at multiple positions.
Couple that with the facts he is currently on the team with the best NL record and Rizzo and Bryant have been bad/injured.
Right now it would seem like Matt Carpenter should be the MVP pick. But there is still a lot of season left and Baez, Yelich and even Arenado and Freeman could stake claims with strong finishes.
Or maybe Scherzer gets both Cy Young and MVP this year.
Quote from: #bansultan on August 07, 2018, 09:35:31 AM
Right now it would seem like Matt Carpenter should be the MVP pick. But there is still a lot of season left and Baez, Yelich and even Arenado and Freeman could stake claims with strong finishes.
Or maybe Scherzer gets both Cy Young and MVP this year.
I would agree with Carpenter if if was based on stats alone. But they seem to favor players on winning teams. The Cardinals don't seem to be going anywhere.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 09:37:31 AM
I would agree with Carpenter if if was based on stats alone. But they seem to favor players on winning teams. The Cardinals don't seem to be going anywhere.
Yeah I agree. Let's see where everything ends up.
Current Bovada odds:
1. Nolan Arenado (11/4)
2. Freddie Freeman (13/4)
3. Paul Goldschmidt (7/2)
4. Javier Baez (4/1)
Quote from: #bansultan on August 07, 2018, 09:35:31 AM
Right now it would seem like Matt Carpenter should be the MVP pick. But there is still a lot of season left and Baez, Yelich and even Arenado and Freeman could stake claims with strong finishes.
Or maybe Scherzer gets both Cy Young and MVP this year.
If I gave it to anyone right now, I'd give it to Arenado.
I know some people don't like giving it to a pitcher, but there certainly is a case for Scherzer. Also, while playing on a winning team helps, playing on a team overachieving is different than playing on a team that was overwhelming favorites to win their division. Because of that, i'd go with Freeman.
Quote from: #bansultan on August 07, 2018, 09:44:52 AM
Yeah I agree. Let's see where everything ends up.
Good call. Wouldn't want to talk about something before it happens on a sports message board.
Quote from: Its DJOver on August 07, 2018, 09:49:16 AM
I know some people don't like giving it to a pitcher, but there certainly is a case for Scherzer. Also, while playing on a winning team helps, playing on a team overachieving is different than playing on a team that was overwhelming favorites to win their division. Because of that, i'd go with Freeman.
This is a good point for the Braves and Freeman. I'd be good with Freeman.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 09:52:32 AM
Good call. Wouldn't want to talk about something before it happens on a sports message board.
Uh OK. Wasn't suggesting that we stop talking about it. Just reaffirming that there is a lot of the season left.
Mike Trout has won 2 MVPs, finished 2nd in the MVP three times, and finished 4th in his only other full season in the MLB. The Angels have been below .500 in 3 of those 6 seasons and only made the Playoffs once. Unlike the NBA, you don't have to play for a contender to win the MVP in the MLB.
Quote from: wadesworld on August 07, 2018, 10:06:07 AM
Mike Trout has won 2 MVPs, finished 2nd in the MVP three times, and finished 4th in his only other full season in the MLB. The Angels have been below .500 in 3 of those 6 seasons and only made the Playoffs once. Unlike the NBA, you don't have to play for a contender to win the MVP in the MLB.
Angels had the best record in baseball 1 of the 2 years he won. I agree that team record isn't nearly as important for MLB MVP as it is for NBA, but it still plays a role. I'd be surprised to see Carpenter win if the Cardinals don't make a run.
Quote from: wadesworld on August 07, 2018, 10:06:07 AM
Mike Trout has won 2 MVPs, finished 2nd in the MVP three times, and finished 4th in his only other full season in the MLB. The Angels have been below .500 in 3 of those 6 seasons and only made the Playoffs once. Unlike the NBA, you don't have to play for a contender to win the MVP in the MLB.
I would say baseball needs more of a strong team than just an individual player. Whereas in basketball a single player such as lebron can make all the difference.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 07, 2018, 11:33:47 AM
I would say baseball needs more of a strong team than just an individual player. Whereas in basketball a single player such as lebron can make all the difference.
Yup. In basketball, if you have the best player in the league you are going to make the playoffs. Not the same in baseball at all. One guy does not have the same impact on a team in baseball as he does in basketball.
Quote from: wadesworld on August 07, 2018, 10:06:07 AM
Mike Trout has won 2 MVPs, finished 2nd in the MVP three times, and finished 4th in his only other full season in the MLB. The Angels have been below .500 in 3 of those 6 seasons and only made the Playoffs once. Unlike the NBA, you don't have to play for a contender to win the MVP in the MLB.
The fact Mike Trout hasn't won every year is proof being on a winning team matters.
Quote from: drewm88 on August 07, 2018, 10:44:31 AM
Angels had the best record in baseball 1 of the 2 years he won. I agree that team record isn't nearly as important for MLB MVP as it is for NBA, but it still plays a role. I'd be surprised to see Carpenter win if the Cardinals don't make a run.
I also think there's a bit of skepticism around who is and who is not "one of the best players in baseball" type of argument. Voters don't want to choose a guy they feel like they'll look back on in 10 years and say "what happened there?" Almost like how you can't get an acting gig unless you're in the guild, but can't get in the guild unless you've had an acting gig. Arenado, Goldschmidt, Freeman, increasingly Baez are all "one of the best players in the game" type guys, as unscientific as that is. I'm not sure Carpenter is seen as one of those guys (even though he's been an even better overall player than his basic stats over the years suggest).
I've never liked the practice of giving it to a guy because his team did better. I wish they would simply base it on who they believe is the best baseball player in their respective league.
Pedro Strop the last 5 years:
2014 (61.0 IP): 2.21 ERA, 2.66 FIP
2015 (68.0 IP): 2.91 ERA, 3.16 FIP
2016 (47.1 IP): 2.85 ERA, 2.91 FIP
2017 (60.1 IP): 2.83 ERA, 3.31 FIP
2018 (46.0 IP): 2.74 ERA, 3.18 FIP
Great to see he's finally getting some of the recognition he deserves. Considering the volatility of bullpens and relievers his consistency has been incredibly impressive.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 02:13:35 PM
I've never liked the practice of giving it to a guy because his team did better. I wish they would simply base it on who they believe is the best baseball player in their respective league.
It's most valuable, not best player. I know I'm being overly semantical but I think the term value is important....if he's the best player in the world but is a real knob and his teammates hate him and as a consequence the team doesn't play as well, that matters to me. MVP is not just the most talent(it's the number 1 factor to be sure) but results and fit matter in the discussion to me.
Quote from: mu03eng on August 07, 2018, 02:27:28 PM
if he's the best player in the world but is a real knob and his teammates hate him and as a consequence the team doesn't play as well, that matters to me.
Haha Sammy Sosa's teammates hated him in 1998 and he won it.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 02:30:39 PM
Haha Sammy Sosa's teammates hated him in 1998 and he won it.
Yeah, but Alou and Biggio split votes(neither was as big as Sosa - literally and figuratively) and McGuire was on a bad team. All of that trumps chemistry at that point.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 12:49:21 PM
The fact Mike Trout hasn't won every year is proof being on a winning team matters.
I don't know about that. In 2011 he only played 40 games and was nothing special.
In 2012 he didn't come up until May and Miguel Cabrera was the first triple crown winner in 45 years. Cabrera is going to win that one more often than not regardless of team performance.
In 2013 Cabrera outhit him .348 to .323, outhomered him 44 to 27, out RBIed him 137 to 97. Cabrera also had a higher OBP and a higher slugging pct and thus a higher OPS. You have to give a ton of credit to Trout's defense to overcome that. Again, I think the voters were likely to go with Cabrera regardless.
He won in 2014.
I think 2015 may be the year he lost due to team success. He and Donaldson had traditional numbers that were very close. Tied in homers and almost identical in Avg (.299 to .297 in favor of Trout), Donaldson 30 more RBIs and 18 more runs scored. Trout ahead in OBP and SLG. Could have gone either way and team success probably the difference, plus Donaldson's major advantages(runs and RBIs) were likely a product of having better teammates. This is the one that got away, IMO.
Trout won in 2016. Mookie Betts played for a first place team, had higher numbers in all three triple crown categories and every bit as good a fielder and base runner, probably better. But Trout won easily (and deservedly, due to much, much higher OBP). Ten years ago Betts would have won that MVP.
Trout missed almost 50 games in 2017 and really didn't have an argument for MVP compared to Altuve or Judge.
Quote from: mu03eng on August 07, 2018, 02:58:36 PM
Yeah, but Alou and Biggio split votes(neither was as big as Sosa - literally and figuratively) and McGuire was on a bad team. All of that trumps chemistry at that point.
I think in Sammy's case, chemistry had everything to do with it.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 07, 2018, 05:49:55 PM
I think in Sammy's case, chemistry had everything to do with it.
I see what you did there.
David Bote is now the hardest hitting batter in all of baseball.
See attachment.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 08:31:44 PM
David Bote is now the hardest hitting batter in all of baseball.
See attachment.
Bote = Lou Gehrig, Bryant = Wally Pip.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 08:31:44 PM
David Bote is now the hardest hitting batter in all of baseball.
Clearly a juicer...
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 07, 2018, 08:31:44 PM
David Bote is now the hardest hitting batter in all of baseball.
See attachment.
And Matt Davidson has the most scoreless appearances and home runs since the Bambino. Probably. Maybe. Who really cares.
Time to get Knebel out of the closer spot. He's been bad.
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on August 09, 2018, 04:31:24 PM
Time to get Knebel out of the closer spot. He's been bad.
That's an understatement. How do you walk the 7/8/9 spot of the worst team in the NL in a save situation?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 09, 2018, 05:09:46 PM
That's an understatement. How do you walk the 7/8/9 spot of the worst team in the NL in a save situation?
When home plate starts moving around on a pitcher it doesn't matter who's batting.
Tough loss for the Crew.
That was on Couns. Shoulda pulled him after the second walk. You can't lose a series to SD in mid August like that. And you simply can't sit there and watch it happen.
Aaaaaaannnnd the Orioles are mathematically eliminated from the AL East race.
Im enjoying the brewers bullpen.
Said about a year ago the Lester regression train was starting to get its engines fired up, but that sucker is full speed ahead.
Quote from: MUDish on August 11, 2018, 05:33:34 PM
Said about a year ago the Lester regression train was starting to get its engines fired up, but that sucker is full speed ahead.
Wow, what a stunning prediction. Got any lotto numbers for me?
Might be going through dead arm and could use a break.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 06:49:43 PM
Wow, what a stunning prediction. Got any lotto numbers for me?
Might be going through dead arm and could use a break.
Sure, save your money, buy a Fukudome T-shirt instead.
Or, as anyone who can read advanced statistics will note, he was one of the luckier pitchers in baseball in the first half. Second half...not so much.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 06:49:43 PM
Wow, what a stunning prediction. Got any lotto numbers for me?
Might be going through dead arm and could use a break.
if only the cubs hadnt known something about this guy that other teams didnt they could use him in lesters place...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/arrieja01.shtml
Quote from: MUDish on August 11, 2018, 07:04:19 PM
Sure, save your money, buy a Fukudome T-shirt instead.
Or, as anyone who can read advanced statistics will note, he was one of the luckier pitchers in baseball in the first half. Second half...not so much.
I know. My point is the regression is not surprising to anyone that was paying attention. Maybe not to this extent but its not a shock.
Quote from: WithoutBias on August 11, 2018, 07:17:54 PM
if only the cubs hadnt known something about this guy that other teams didnt they could use him in lesters place...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/arrieja01.shtml
Try again but be coherent this time.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 11:18:18 PM
Try again but be coherent this time.
you claimed the chubz knew something about arietta that only the chubz would know and thats why they signed yu over him for much more money and many more years.
oops?
Quote from: WithoutBias on August 11, 2018, 11:20:56 PM
you claimed the chubz knew something about arietta that only the chubz would know and thats why they signed yu over him for much more money and many more years.
oops?
Did I? Possible - please share the post.
Arrieta was not going to accept the contract he did with the Phillies in Chicago.
Neither can really be judged yet, can they?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 11:26:14 PM
Did I? Possible - please share the post.
Arrieta was not going to accept the contract he did with the Phillies in Chicago.
Neither can really be judged yet, can they?
4-5 years, eh kin?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 11:26:14 PM
Did I? Possible - please share the post.
Arrieta was not going to accept the contract he did with the Phillies in Chicago.
Neither can really be judged yet, can they?
how many quotes do you want? bc if you go back to like page 7 you tried to explain it for a good 2-3 pages while buck mocked you for it by making the same claim about the dodgers and yu and you became enraged and pulled your go to "youre illogical and stupid!" line.
ill just quote this one to put you roughly at the start of the conversation, just bc its so funny to look at.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 02:36:47 PM
Like most long-term pitching contracts.
You take that contract all day, everyday for $21 million a year.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 11, 2018, 11:32:42 PM
Cmon man.
What's the problem?
You think a marquee free agent would ever actually choose to go to the South Side?
Quote from: WithoutBias on August 11, 2018, 11:43:33 PM
how many quotes do you want? bc if you go back to like page 7 you tried to explain it for a good 2-3 pages while buck mocked you for it by making the same claim about the dodgers and yu and you became enraged and pulled your go to "youre illogical and stupid!" line.
ill just quote this one to put you roughly at the start of the conversation, just bc its so funny to look at.
Right, because picking that post conveys the whole discussion and context. Nor did I say what you're claiming.
You, on the other hand, are stupid.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 11:51:24 PM
What's the problem?
You think a marquee free agent would ever actually choose to go to the South Side?
Like Cespedes? Fowler? Price? Cueto? Chris Davis? Zimmerman? Alex Gordon? Heyward? Hosmer? Panda? Hanley? Those are some of the marquee free agents the last few years.
Not sure what that has to do with anything anyways, but if they offered the most money, sure. It isn't like a magic formula. Most of those deals end up being, well, regrettable anyways.
My cmon was more directed at you not remembering the "Cubs know something about Arrieta" bs you were spouting.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 10, 2018, 08:47:33 PM
The Cubs lack of interest in Arrieta has hurt his market. Who would know him better?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 11:58:21 PM
Right, because picking that post conveys the whole discussion and context. Nor did I say what you're claiming.
You, on the other hand, are stupid.
as was said in the post, picking that post was just for the pure entertainment. just shows how funny it is when you go all "smarter than though" when discussing baseball. specifically said it did not say what i was claiming. there were too many posts to choose from that you made your hysterical claims. youre having a tough time reading.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 12, 2018, 12:05:58 AM
My cmon was more directed at you not remembering the "Cubs know something about Arrieta" bs you were spouting.
yeah that was clear to even someone as stupid as me.
a guy who has such a difficult time recalling things he said and understanding obvious responses sure does make a lot of claims that every non-FIB and chicago sports fan is stupid.
when you have to spend so much of your time telling everyone else theyre stupid it may be time to find a mirror.
Quote from: WithoutBias on August 12, 2018, 12:22:02 AM
as was said in the post, picking that post was just for the pure entertainment. just shows how funny it is when you go all "smarter than though" when discussing baseball. specifically said it did not say what i was claiming. there were too many posts to choose from that you made your hysterical claims. youre having a tough time reading.
yeah that was clear to even someone as stupid as me.
a guy who has such a difficult time recalling things he said and understanding obvious responses sure does make a lot of claims that every non-FIB and chicago sports fan is stupid.
when you have to spend so much of your time telling everyone else theyre stupid it may be time to find a mirror.
*they're
Again, the only person here that I believe is stupid is you.
I can think a post is dumb without believing the person who posted it is dumb. See the difference?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 11, 2018, 11:51:24 PM
What's the problem?
You think a marquee free agent would ever actually choose to go to the South Side?
I'm not sure how far back we're going here, but Fisk and Belle immediately pop to mind. On the night they honored Thome, the story of Thome asking the Phillies to trade him to the Sox also sticks out.
Just wow.
https://www.mlb.com/news/best-outfield-throws-in-baseball-history/c-289968680
Holy crap.
I am trying to get my 11 year old to throw low enough for the cutoff man to catch it, as he has overthrown the catcher from the OF multiple times this year. This absolutely amazing throw does not strengthen my argument.
Quote from: tower912 on August 12, 2018, 01:10:05 PM
I am trying to get my 11 year old to throw low enough for the cutoff man to catch it, as he has overthrown the catcher from the OF multiple times this year. This absolutely amazing throw does not strengthen my argument.
Hahah. Well unless your 11 year old can throw it 321 feet at 92 mph, the cutoff is a better option. Also for fundamentals sake, there was no one else on base, so it was lower risk to just air mail it.
That's what I'd tell a team of kids anyways.
Some great plays this week by Adam Engel. If he could hit, man he could be something.
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/adam-engel-robbed-three-home-runs-in-a-week/c-290065064
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 12, 2018, 02:13:30 PM
Hahah. Well unless your 11 year old can throw it 321 feet at 92 mph, the cutoff is a better option. Also for fundamentals sake, there was no one else on base, so it was lower risk to just air mail it.
That's what I'd tell a team of kids anyways.
Some great plays this week by Adam Engel. If he could hit, man he could be something.
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/adam-engel-robbed-three-home-runs-in-a-week/c-290065064
I get to watch Jackie Bradley Jr every day in CF and am often amazed at how good he is, but the number of great CFs in MLB right now is amazing. It seems there are a dozen more just like JBJ.
Quote from: MUDish on August 11, 2018, 05:33:34 PM
Said about a year ago the Lester regression train was starting to get its engines fired up, but that sucker is full speed ahead.
Psh anyone can say that now when he's struggling.
I called this over a month ago when he was cruising haha. :P
Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 01, 2018, 10:44:42 PM
Lester has been awesome but his peripheral stats are worrisome. His BABIP is pretty low (although part of that is the great defense behind him) and his xFIP is around 4.50.
David Bote is playing his ass off when he got his shot. Pretty special. That was unreal last night.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 13, 2018, 09:57:50 AM
David Bote is playing his ass off when he got his shot. Pretty special. That was unreal last night.
Already has a higher rWAR than Rizzo.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkdFYn7XoAAnZVV.jpg)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 02, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
I've been wondering if the Yanks, Sox, and Astros are really that great or just playing an overall weak AL. Probably a mixture of both.
Getting back to this just for a minute, the AL West has really played pretty great since this (and were pretty strong before as well) but as of right now, the 3rd place team in the AL West (Mariners) would be leading the NL West by 4 games.
Yeah, but did anybody douse the 3rd base coach with the gatorade cooler? No? Didn't think so. Boring.
Really though, just a catastrophic loss for the Nats. They can't be giving away games they have won, especially when Scherzer completely dominates. They are chasing 2 teams and their margin for error is pretty razor thin with 44 games left. That one has to hurt.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 13, 2018, 09:57:50 AM
David Bote is playing his ass off when he got his shot. Pretty special. That was unreal last night.
Arguably the coolest moment of the baseball season. Every kid in his backyard playing ball has wanted to hit a walk off grand slam in the 9th. Wasn't a cheap one either, that ball was crushed.
Quote from: MUDish on August 13, 2018, 10:54:25 AM
Arguably the coolest moment of the baseball season. Every kid in his backyard playing ball has wanted to hit a walk off grand slam in the 9th. Wasn't a cheap one either, that ball was crushed.
Adam Engel robbing three homeruns in a week isn't too shabby. Each one better than the previous.
https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/1028989745374871553
Quote from: MUDish on August 12, 2018, 01:36:34 AM
I'm not sure how far back we're going here, but Fisk and Belle immediately pop to mind. On the night they honored Thome, the story of Thome asking the Phillies to trade him to the Sox also sticks out.
Good call. I'm curious to see how it will work out. The main reason the Cubs were able to get Lester coming up another last place finish was the relationship that already existed with Epstein and Hoyer.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 13, 2018, 10:15:05 AM
Already has a higher rWAR than Rizzo.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkdFYn7XoAAnZVV.jpg)
I was lucky enough to be there last night. Took some friends instead of selling well below face value so that outcome made eating some $ a lot easier to swallow. I'm sure some of the folks who took off after the Nats put up two in the 9th regretted it.
Lost in the Bote heroics last night, Hamels pitched his butt off. He's only had a couple starts, but he's their anchor right now.
Quote from: MUDish on August 13, 2018, 02:31:46 PM
Lost in the Bote heroics last night, Hamels pitched his butt off. He's only had a couple starts, but he's their anchor right now.
3 starts, 2 ER, and a 20/4 K/BB. He's been a machine. Apparently a change of scenery was needed.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 13, 2018, 11:46:56 AM
Adam Engel robbing three homeruns in a week isn't too shabby. Each one better than the previous.
https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/1028989745374871553
If only he could hit. All the hitting for the Sox is sitting in AAA still
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 13, 2018, 02:03:29 PM
Good call. I'm curious to see how it will work out. The main reason the Cubs were able to get Lester coming up another last place finish was the relationship that already existed with Epstein and Hoyer.
Well, that, and 150 million dollars.
Quote from: ZaLiN on August 13, 2018, 03:27:54 PM
If only he could hit. All the hitting for the Sox is sitting in AAA still
And AA, and A+ and A...
Really the only real hitting talent in AAA is Eloy and Zavala could be an impact hitter as well.
AA has Collins and a couple of potential impact players in the OF but, the most talent in the system in still is A+, in Winston Salem, so while Kopech and Jimenez will (hopefully) make an impact, it could still be a while.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 13, 2018, 03:39:04 PM
Well, that, and 150 million dollars.
Well sure but that wasn't the biggest offer he had. Signing with a team that had been in last place for 5 straight years when you want to win takes some faith. If it's not Epstein and Hoyer I think it turns out differently. Otherwise, a team in that position would likely have to extend an offer that blows away the competition.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 13, 2018, 04:07:05 PM
Well sure but that wasn't the biggest offer he had.
I could be wrong here, and you are certainly correct about the other part, but I didn't remember him having higher offers, so I went and did a quick check on trade rumors, and it looks like, according to that, that he had several offers around 130, and maybe one around 150, Cubs gave him between 155-170 (depending on the option the last year)
Also ran a quick google on it, didn't scan through all the articles, but it seems like his next largest offer was 150 from SF.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 13, 2018, 04:40:26 PM
I could be wrong here, and you are certainly correct about the other part, but I didn't remember him having higher offers, so I went and did a quick check on trade rumors, and it looks like, according to that, that he had several offers around 130, and maybe one around 150, Cubs gave him between 155-170 (depending on the option the last year)
Also ran a quick google on it, didn't scan through all the articles, but it seems like his next largest offer was 150 from SF.
SF reportedly offered him $168 million although there was an extra year and there apparently were some tax implications, if this is accurate.
https://www.sfgate.com/giants/article/Why-Cubs-Lester-turned-down-a-bigger-offer-7882890.php
https://www.talleynco.com/sf-giants-168-million-pitch-to-jon-lester-comes-up-short-after-ca-taxes/
Ok then. Contradicts a couple of other articles here
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/12/10/jon-lester-signs-chicago-cubs/20110533/
and here
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/cubs-agree-to-sign-jon-lester-to-6-year-155m-deal/
but it hardly matters. Maybe the 180 was the "final offer" alluded to in the article. Even if he doesn't win another game, it is a deal the Cubs would take every single time.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 13, 2018, 05:01:24 PM
Ok then. Contradicts a couple of other articles here
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/12/10/jon-lester-signs-chicago-cubs/20110533/
and here
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/cubs-agree-to-sign-jon-lester-to-6-year-155m-deal/
but it hardly matters. Maybe the 180 was the "final offer" alluded to in the article. Even if he doesn't win another game, it is a deal the Cubs would take every single time.
Absolutely.
Back to back brutal losses for Washington.
Back to the real show: The Cardinals are coming! The Cardinals are coming.
The Devilbirds have looked good as of late. A new manager and pitching help from Memphis is making this team look absolutely good.
And, if anyone would wake up, Matt Carpenter would be MVP.
Quote from: MUDish on August 13, 2018, 10:34:39 PM
Back to back brutal losses for Washington.
They're pretty much cooked. Braves won 2 today. That's a big swing.
Kershaw and Bumgarner faved off for the 11th time. Their teams had been 5-5. Kershaw pitched to an ERA of 2 even and Bum to 2.56 in those games. Dodger's pen blew up in the 9th, but a magnificently pitched game.
Also the BoSox have lost 6 games since the beginning of July.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 14, 2018, 12:14:22 AM
They're pretty much cooked. Braves won 2 today. That's a big swing.
Kershaw and Bumgarner faved off for the 11th time. Their teams had been 5-5. Kershaw pitched to an ERA of 2 even and Bum to 2.56 in those games. Dodger's pen blew up in the 9th, but a magnificently pitched game.
Also the BoSox have lost 6 games since the beginning of July.
That was an absurd implosion by the Dodgers. Had Slater down 0-2 before falling apart and then hitting him. Hung a pitch to Hundley on the very next pitch to give the Giants 2 runs. Then had Hernandez down 0-2 before letting him back in the count and giving up another hit. Crazy how rickety some of these bullpens are.
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 13, 2018, 11:16:51 PM
Back to the real show: The Cardinals are coming! The Cardinals are coming.
The Devilbirds have looked good as of late. A new manager and pitching help from Memphis is making this team look absolutely good.
And, if anyone would wake up, Matt Carpenter would be MVP.
14 of the games during this hot streak have come against the Reds, White Sox, Royals, and Marlins.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 14, 2018, 09:46:59 AM
That was an absurd implosion by the Dodgers. Had Slater down 0-2 before falling apart and then hitting him. Hung a pitch to Hundley on the very next pitch to give the Giants 2 runs. Then had Hernandez down 0-2 before letting him back in the count and giving up another hit. Crazy how rickety some of these bullpens are.
Especially when you remove the anchor and put guys into different roles. Kenley probably gets a different result there, similar to how Doolittle likely takes care of business for the Nats.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 14, 2018, 09:46:59 AM
Crazy how rickety some of these bullpens are.
A lot of relievers are probably getting tired.
While more and more teams save the arms of their starters by not letting them throw more than 90 pitches, they are marching out relievers 3, 4, 5 days in a row, or 7 out of 8 days.
The relievers have to warm up, sometimes more than once, and then they often enter in very stressful situations. The 6th, 7th and 8th inning guys often enter in far more stressful circumstances than the closer does.
That's the crazy thing. Let's coddle the starter, give him an extra day or two, give him a week off, limit him to 5 innings. But the 7th inning guy? We need him Thursday ... even if he also pitched Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 14, 2018, 10:01:12 AM
14 of the games during this hot streak have come against the Reds, White Sox, Royals, and Marlins.
Ok, just because I have to.... How have the Cubs fared against the likes of the Reds and Marlins?
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 14, 2018, 12:24:10 PM
Ok, just because I have to.... How have the Cubs fared against the likes of the Reds and Marlins?
About like Marquette against Belmont :'(
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 14, 2018, 12:24:10 PM
Ok, just because I have to.... How have the Cubs fared against the likes of the Reds and Marlins?
Why do you have to? Can't help yourself?
I was merely giving context that a good portion of this recent hot streak was against teams that aren't great and the Cardinals have taken care of business. Will that continue once the schedule gets tougher?
There's no way around it - Quintana has been extremely disappointing thus far this season.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 14, 2018, 02:47:21 PM
There's no way around it - Quintana has been extremely disappointing thus far this season.
I say this as a credit to the Cubs, but with their injuries, and their starting pitching being blah, I'm surprised by how good their record is this year. Since July, Quintana, Lester, Darvish have given the Cubs next to nothing (obviously Darvish is hurt). Chatwood's been below average but finds ways to keep them in games. Hendricks has been steady of late, and obviously Hamels has been a gigantic add.
They find ways to win games like they did the other night against Washington, but I look at the state of their starting pitching staff and keep wondering how they have the best record in the NL.
Sunday was a huge missed opportunity for the Brewers.
First you lose a game that you pound out 19 hits in (in my opinion that one was on Counsell. You go into the game knowing Soria is on the DL, Knebel is awful, and Hader is unavailable having pitched 2 innings the previous night, you have Anderson getting hit around for 4 runs in the first 2 innings and a high pitch count and then settling in to get 6 of the next 7 hitters out, you are tied going into the top of the 5th and you lead it off by pinch hitting for Anderson, sitting at 82 pitches, with...Chacin? And then, when you get a 2 run lead in the top of the 5th, you throw out Knebel who gives 1 back right away, then put in Burnes who is a starter and pitched the night before, pitching back to back days for the first time in his career, and there goes the 2 run lead you had. You needed to let Anderson go back out there in the 5th and try to make it to the 8th with the lead and let Jeffress go 2 innings there).
Then the Cubs go into the 9th down 3 and win the game.
Could've, and probably should've, come into this series with a 1 game deficit in the NL Central. Now you're going to get a win but you're still 2 back.
Quote from: MUDish on August 14, 2018, 03:34:07 PM
I say this as a credit to the Cubs, but with their injuries, and their starting pitching being blah, I'm surprised by how good their record is this year. Since July, Quintana, Lester, Darvish have given the Cubs next to nothing (obviously Darvish is hurt). Chatwood's been below average but finds ways to keep them in games. Hendricks has been steady of late, and obviously Hamels has been a gigantic add.
They find ways to win games like they did the other night against Washington, but I look at the state of their starting pitching staff and keep wondering how they have the best record in the NL.
Also have their closer and MVP third baseman on the DL. Granted Bote and Strop have done very well in their absences. Hopefully they can get these guys back before the stretch run.
Quote from: wadesworld on August 14, 2018, 03:55:28 PM
Sunday was a huge missed opportunity for the Brewers.
First you lose a game that you pound out 19 hits in (in my opinion that one was on Counsell. You go into the game knowing Soria is on the DL, Knebel is awful, and Hader is unavailable having pitched 2 innings the previous night, you have Anderson getting hit around for 4 runs in the first 2 innings and a high pitch count and then settling in to get 6 of the next 7 hitters out, you are tied going into the top of the 5th and you lead it off by pinch hitting for Anderson, sitting at 82 pitches, with...Chacin? And then, when you get a 2 run lead in the top of the 5th, you throw out Knebel who gives 1 back right away, then put in Burnes who is a starter and pitched the night before, pitching back to back days for the first time in his career, and there goes the 2 run lead you had. You needed to let Anderson go back out there in the 5th and try to make it to the 8th with the lead and let Jeffress go 2 innings there).
Then the Cubs go into the 9th down 3 and win the game.
Could've, and probably should've, come into this series with a 1 game deficit in the NL Central. Now you're going to get a win but you're still 2 back.
Disagree on Anderson. If CC leaves him in and he gives up another run everyone is saying it's clear he was getting hit around and should have been taken out earlier. Not wanting him to go again through the order made sense with the off day the following day. You have to be able to trust your bullpen. Knebel, Jennings, Burnes all failed. Burnes needs to be able to pitch back to back days. He's been in the bullpen for months.
I don't really understand pinch hitting Chacin but I'm guessing he just wanted to save a position player.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on August 14, 2018, 04:00:59 PM
Disagree on Anderson. If CC leaves him in and he gives up another run everyone is saying it's clear he was getting hit around and should have been taken out earlier. Not wanting him to go again through the order made sense with the off day the following day. You have to be able to trust your bullpen. Knebel, Jennings, Burnes all failed. Burnes needs to be able to pitch back to back days. He's been in the bullpen for months.
I don't really understand pinch hitting Chacin but I'm guessing he just wanted to save a position player.
If he would've continued to struggle and put guys on base but find ways out of the 3rd and 4th I'd be with you. But he settled in very nicely and had a quick 3rd and 4th, giving up only a 2 out walk in the 4th before getting out of the inning. I thought he should've gotten the chance to go back out there for one more inning knowing you didn't have your best weapons outside of Jeffress available in the pen.
But you are right. If he throws Anderson back out there and Anderson continues to get knocked around it also looks bad.
Quote from: MUDish on August 14, 2018, 03:34:07 PM
I say this as a credit to the Cubs, but with their injuries, and their starting pitching being blah, I'm surprised by how good their record is this year. Since July, Quintana, Lester, Darvish have given the Cubs next to nothing (obviously Darvish is hurt). Chatwood's been below average but finds ways to keep them in games. Hendricks has been steady of late, and obviously Hamels has been a gigantic add.
They find ways to win games like they did the other night against Washington, but I look at the state of their starting pitching staff and keep wondering how they have the best record in the NL.
The Cubs Pythagorean record in the 1st half was unlucky and they've been lucky since the All-Star break.
Regression was coming for Lester but he's been as bad as any starter in baseball the lats 4-6 weeks. Hopefully he can right the ship.
Quintana has been extremely frustrating. Montgomery has been solid, which is all you can ask there. As you mentioned, Hamels has been huge so far. The team needs a big start from Hendricks tomorrow and the bats to wake up.
As Titan mentioned, getting Bryant, Morrow, and Darvish back for September is crucial.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 14, 2018, 01:23:49 PM
Why do you have to? Can't help yourself?
I was merely giving context that a good portion of this recent hot streak was against teams that aren't great and the Cardinals have taken care of business. Will that continue once the schedule gets tougher?
I was just giving context to the fact that those can still be dangerous teams.
By the way, wow. Shane Baz as the PTBNL for Archer. Wow. That really changes the return for that trade. The Rays killed it.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 14, 2018, 02:47:21 PM
There's no way around it - Quintana has been extremely disappointing thus far this season.
The Sox traded him just at the right time. And in a year where a lot of their higher profile prospects have been injured, Eloy and Cease have been the two biggest bright spots.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 14, 2018, 04:11:00 PM
The Cubs Pythagorean record in the 1st half was unlucky and they've been lucky since the All-Star break.
Regression was coming for Lester but he's been as bad as any starter in baseball the lats 4-6 weeks. Hopefully he can right the ship.
Quintana has been extremely frustrating. Montgomery has been solid, which is all you can ask there. As you mentioned, Hamels has been huge so far. The team needs a big start from Hendricks tomorrow and the bats to wake up.
As Titan mentioned, getting Bryant, Morrow, and Darvish back for September is crucial.
On the plus side, Hendricks has been trending in the right direction in his past several starts.
The best part of the game today was that it appears Couns has finally taken Knebel out of the closer role. Love Knebel but he has just not had it this season.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 14, 2018, 04:13:57 PM
By the way, wow. Shane Baz as the PTBNL for Archer. Wow. That really changes the return for that trade. The Rays killed it.
Early reports were that the PTBNL would be someone of significance, and they weren't lying. What is that, 1, 2 and 4 from Pitt's system? Using Archer as a comp, there might literally not be a package big enough for the Mets to get value for De Grom.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 14, 2018, 04:36:17 PM
The best part of the game today was that it appears Couns has finally taken Knebel out of the closer role. Love Knebel but he has just not had it this season.
He did this after the disaster last Thursday against San Diego. Hader pitched the 9th Saturday in Atlanta for a save. Knebel pitched I believe in the 5th Sunday in Atlanta. Then obviously today Knebel pitched in a blowout.
Counsell said it'd be awhile before we see him in late game, high leverage situations
Haha Ben Zobrist had his first career ejection today. Zobrist doesn't swear so what was the magic phrase?
"That's why we want an electric strike zone."
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 12:00:54 AM
Haha Ben Zobrist had his first career ejection today. Zobrist doesn't swear so what was the magic phrase?
"That's why we want an electric strike zone."
I mean if he didn't get ejected we might still be waiting to play the 9th inning.
Interesting story on the background of the dropped third strike rule.
https://sabr.org/research/dropped-third-strike-life-and-times-rule
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 12:00:54 AM
Haha Ben Zobrist had his first career ejection today. Zobrist doesn't swear so what was the magic phrase?
"That's why we want an electric strike zone."
When the strike zone makes the highlights, you know it was a bad day for the umps. That pitch wasn't even close and I'm a Brewers fan.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 12:00:54 AM
Haha Ben Zobrist had his first career ejection today. Zobrist doesn't swear so what was the magic phrase?
"That's why we want an electric strike zone."
Personally, I really want it just for the stupid pitch framing conversation to go away forever.
Also, unrelated, my bold prediction is that Bryce Harper ends this season on the Dodgers or Cardinals.
Quote from: jsglow on August 15, 2018, 07:21:07 AM
When the strike zone makes the highlights, you know it was a bad day for the umps. That pitch wasn't even close and I'm a Brewers fan.
It probably only made highlights because he got ejected. The pitch was a ball, but it wasn't a completely horrible call (honestly didn't see it in the game, but in reading an article they showed a gamecast which showed the previous pitch to be significantly more out of the strike zone). It was still a bad call, but Nick Castellanos was called out to end the Sox game on a much worse pitch.
Really great moment in the Sox - Tigers game by the way. Foul ball hit down the line. Not sure about this part, but it looked to me like a guy caught it and gave it to a kid, probably 11 or 12 or so. That kid, after the next pitch was shown running down and gave the ball to a younger kid. After the next pitch they showed the littler kid running back up to shake the older kids hand. Just a really cool deal.
As a youth umpire, it makes me feel good to see the best umpires in the world miss calls.
I work for $40-60 per game as part of a 2-man crew (and solo in a couple of leagues), and the coaches think I should never miss a call. I want to ask them: "Did you see the MLB game on ESPN last night? Did you see the 5 calls missed by the best umpires in the world, guys who are making upwards of $5,000 per game?"
But I don't say anything. I've got thick skin and I'm pretty good a diffusing tense situations. I have tossed only 2 coaches in 6 years, and one of those guys was going after my partner not me.
Having said all that, I'd rather MLB umps get every call right. And I do think a computer will be used to call balls and strikes in the not too distant future. The technology exists, it will make the strike zone the exact same for every pitcher and every batter, so they might as well use it.
I guess telling a home plate ump that his calls are the reason we need an electronic strike zone is a sure way to get tossed.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 15, 2018, 08:56:33 AM
Personally, I really want it just for the stupid pitch framing conversation to go away forever.
Also, unrelated, my bold prediction is that Bryce Harper ends this season on the Dodgers or Cardinals.
Best Fans in Baseball would last until the Cards lose a playoff series before losing their SH** about the flair and edge he plays with and how its detrimental to the team and how it goes against the beauty of the game or some nonsense.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 15, 2018, 08:56:33 AM
Personally, I really want it just for the stupid pitch framing conversation to go away forever.
Also, unrelated, my bold prediction is that Bryce Harper ends this season on the Dodgers or Cardinals.
Dodgers I'll give you. Cardinals might be a tough sell for anyone after the Dexter Fowler experience and Bud Norris snitching on/hazing teammates.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 12:27:04 PM
Dodgers I'll give you. Cardinals might be a tough sell for anyone after the Dexter Fowler experience and Bud Norris snitching on/hazing teammates.
Except he said "ends this season" in that a waiver trade would have to occur. I don't see it.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 12:27:04 PM
Dodgers I'll give you. Cardinals might be a tough sell for anyone after the Dexter Fowler experience and Bud Norris snitching on/hazing teammates.
I meant for this season. Sorry for the ambiguity.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 15, 2018, 12:33:50 PM
Except he said "ends this season" in that a waiver trade would have to occur. I don't see it.
Oops sorry I missed that part. I don't think that happens either.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 15, 2018, 12:33:50 PM
Except he said "ends this season" in that a waiver trade would have to occur. I don't see it.
I think the Nats face reality at some point. I like their team and would love to see them in the playoffs, but they are 6 out if the wild card with what 5 teams above them? They are 8 out of the division. Right now the Dodgers would be the first real contender with waiver priority, though that obviously changes daily.
It would be more surprising of they traded him than of they don't, but I think they have to get something for him.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 12:35:55 PM
Oops sorry I missed that part. I don't think that happens either.
As for where Harper may end up next year, my guess is it comes down to these teams (in no particular order):
-Nats
-Phillies
-Dodgers
-Cubs
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 15, 2018, 12:41:05 PM
I think the Nats face reality at some point. I like their team and would love to see them in the playoffs, but they are 6 out if the wild card with what 5 teams above them? They are 8 out of the division. Right now the Dodgers would be the first real contender with waiver priority, though that obviously changes daily.
It would be more surprising of they traded him than of they don't, but I think they have to get something for him.
It's certainly possible. I would be surprised, though.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 15, 2018, 12:43:24 PM
It's certainly possible. I would be surprised, though.
Yeah, it isn't likely, especially when someone like the Pirates or Giants could just block the claim.
Calling the shot anyways.
Cubs bats are strong early.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 15, 2018, 01:44:05 PM
Cubs bats are strong early.
Can't keep the shutout forever. 27 innings was pretty good though.
(http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_08/Rodon.jpg.84a075108ebc16fbeef77664f6de6001.jpg)
Yet another great case for robot umpires. It wasn't quite right down the middle so I guess it isn't a strike?
And don't look now Astros. The A's are one game back.
Is Yelich hurt? The way he is moving doesn't seem quite right.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 15, 2018, 02:33:37 PM
(http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_08/Rodon.jpg.84a075108ebc16fbeef77664f6de6001.jpg)
Yet another great case for robot umpires. It wasn't quite right down the middle so I guess it isn't a strike?
And don't look now Astros. The A's are one game back.
Yikes that's pretty bad.
Also bad.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkqzGjbX4BQLOYc.jpg)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 03:49:39 PM
Also bad.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkqzGjbX4BQLOYc.jpg)
Ah well, probably not much difference between 2-0 and 0-2 anyways right?
By the way for those who like this sort of thing, NBCSN in Chicago is airing the Charlotte Knights game... they are playing the Buffalo Bisons, featuring Vlad Jr. 2 of the top 3 or so prospects in the game. Sadly Kopech isn't pitching.
Shaw's AB was one of the worst I've seen this year. Bases loaded; a pitcher who often has a hard time throwing strikes; 2-0 count; he swings at the 2-0 pitch OUT of the strike zone and pops up.
There is no way the bat should have come off his shoulder until after Wilson threw a strike. Just terrible.
Acuna hit on first pitch of game. Possibly hurt. Came out half inning after getting hit.
Police it yourself.
Go after Urena - aim at his shoulder and elbow.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 08:26:57 PM
Acuna hit on first pitch of game. Possibly hurt. Came out half inning after getting hit.
That's ridiculous. Hope he doesn't miss time. He has been on quite the roll.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 15, 2018, 08:26:57 PM
Acuna hit on first pitch of game. Possibly hurt. Came out half inning after getting hit.
We've covered here how much baseball's unwritten rules are BS, but it all rarely rises to a level that actually makes me mad. Seeing this one actually pissed me off. Acuna is 20 years old and the Braves are in the middle of a playoff race, and you peg him with the first pitch because he's been playing well? Maybe they can't do it out of the blue with Urena, but MLB has to fine a pitcher 1/2 of his season salary for this crap.
Quote from: MUBurrow on August 16, 2018, 12:19:55 PM
We've covered here how much baseball's unwritten rules are BS, but it all rarely rises to a level that actually makes me mad. Seeing this one actually pissed me off. Acuna is 20 years old and the Braves are in the middle of a playoff race, and you peg him with the first pitch because he's been playing well? Maybe they can't do it out of the blue with Urena, but MLB has to fine a pitcher 1/2 of his season salary for this crap.
What unwritten rule did actually break? It seems like there's more and more of them now.
Quote from: #bansultan on August 16, 2018, 12:35:45 PM
What unwritten rule did actually break? It seems like there's more and more of them now.
Too many leadoff homers. The Cardinals fans may be able to help us there.
Quote from: #bansultan on August 16, 2018, 12:35:45 PM
What unwritten rule did actually break? It seems like there's more and more of them now.
Yeah. All he did was be good at his job. Completely stupid to hit him, how about try to get him out?
So many "old school" idiots chiming in about it being a good baseball play. Terrible.
Michael Young had the best take...
"The whole 'make them uncomfortable ... move their feet...brush em back' thing is complete BS. It doesn't work. When a kid starts playing kid pitch at 8 [years old], he gets hit. When he gets to be, say, 12 [years old], it hurts a bit more. When he gets to high school, pitchers throw inside because good hitters shouldn't extend their arms. So they get hit. College, same thing. In [Class] A ball kids throw gas with zero command, so [the] same good hitter gets hit again. In [the] big leagues, with a runner on third and fewer than two outs, infield in, here comes that predictable sinker that runs in. Hitter gets hit.
"My point... you can't make a good hitter uncomfortable. He's been there, done that. He's laughing in his head because your heaters inside are simply teeing him up with a 2-0 count. Then he's going to torch you. You wanna get him out? Stop listening to that pitching coach giving you that outdated, awful Pitching 101. It's actually Quick Shower 101. Go in, out, up, down, change speeds, avoid patterns, and stop tipping. Clean it up.
Meanwhile on Twitter today, I saw a tweet fondly reminiscing about "when men were men" showing a runner basically tackling a 2B jumping to turn two. People are idiots.
I understand the "he showed us up by flipping the bat so we're gonna hit him" thing. I don't like it; somebody is going to get killed some day, but I understand the macho concept of it.
I understand the "they hit one of ours so we'll hit one of theirs" thing. I'm not a big fan of that, either, but I understand it more.
But the "he's too good and we can't get him out, so let's hit him" thing? That is complete chickenshyte. The manager should get suspended without pay for as long as the injured player is out.
If you don't want him to flip a bat, don't give up a homerun.
MLB's first triple play since 1912 where the batter was not one of the three outs.
https://deadspin.com/this-triple-play-confused-the-hell-out-of-everyone-invo-1828413719
Quote from: #bansultan on August 17, 2018, 08:54:02 AM
MLB's first triple play since 1912 where the batter was not one of the three outs.
https://deadspin.com/this-triple-play-confused-the-hell-out-of-everyone-invo-1828413719
What a way to get out of a jam. I can't blame the baserunners at all because before they showed the replay I thought the ball was caught too.
Trying to remember my fundamental baseball rules. The first out in that place was the force at 3rd (runner going from 2nd to 3rd) which I believe took place while the runner at 3rd was on 3rd and then the tag was applied when the runner at 3rd stepped off the bag. However, if the sequence was changed a little.....first out was the force at 3rd, but the runner at 3rd is a step off the bag at the time of the force and he then gets his foot on the bag prior to the tag being placed on him.....is the runner at 3rd then safe? In other words, if the force is applied behind you, do you no longer need to advance to the next base?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 17, 2018, 08:42:54 AM
If you don't want him to flip a bat, don't give up a homerun.
Yep, TT, preaching to the choir.
I actually think bat-flips are cool.
Quote from: mu03eng on August 17, 2018, 09:30:34 AM
Trying to remember my fundamental baseball rules. The first out in that place was the force at 3rd (runner going from 2nd to 3rd) which I believe took place while the runner at 3rd was on 3rd and then the tag was applied when the runner at 3rd stepped off the bag. However, if the sequence was changed a little.....first out was the force at 3rd, but the runner at 3rd is a step off the bag at the time of the force and he then gets his foot on the bag prior to the tag being placed on him.....is the runner at 3rd then safe? In other words, if the force is applied behind you, do you no longer need to advance to the next base?
Yes, the runner who began on third base would be safe in the scenario you describe, as he is no longer forced to go home once the runner who began on second was out.
Quote from: mu03eng on August 17, 2018, 09:30:34 AM
Trying to remember my fundamental baseball rules. The first out in that place was the force at 3rd (runner going from 2nd to 3rd) which I believe took place while the runner at 3rd was on 3rd and then the tag was applied when the runner at 3rd stepped off the bag. However, if the sequence was changed a little.....first out was the force at 3rd, but the runner at 3rd is a step off the bag at the time of the force and he then gets his foot on the bag prior to the tag being placed on him.....is the runner at 3rd then safe? In other words, if the force is applied behind you, do you no longer need to advance to the next base?
Correct. If the runner behind you has been eliminated you no longer need to advance, therefore, no force out a tag must be applied.
Quote from: MU82 on August 17, 2018, 09:40:47 AM
Yep, TT, preaching to the choir.
I actually think bat-flips are cool.
Agreed! Did you see the ump catch the bat flip yesterday?
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/umpire-catches-nick-castellanos-bat-flip/c-290652880 (https://www.mlb.com/cut4/umpire-catches-nick-castellanos-bat-flip/c-290652880)
More strikeouts than hits this year? Astonishing how much has changed so fast.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/sports/baseball-mlb-strikeouts.html
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 17, 2018, 09:57:28 AM
Agreed! Did you see the ump catch the bat flip yesterday?
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/umpire-catches-nick-castellanos-bat-flip/c-290652880 (https://www.mlb.com/cut4/umpire-catches-nick-castellanos-bat-flip/c-290652880)
It was cool, but not as cool as the triple play. The runners were all caught in no man's land, not sure if the ball had been caught on the fly or not.
@darrenrovell
Best selling nickname jerseys for MLB Players Weekend so far:
1. Javier Baez, Chicago Cubs: EL MAGO
2. Mookie Betts, Boston Red Sox: MOOKIE
3. Shohei Ohtani, Los Angeles Angels: SHOWTIME
4. Charlie Blackmon, Colorado Rockies: CHUCK NAZTY
5. Anthony Rizzo, Chicago Cubs: TONY
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 17, 2018, 10:38:36 AM
@darrenrovell
Best selling nickname jerseys for MLB Players Weekend so far:
1. Javier Baez, Chicago Cubs: EL MAGO
2. Mookie Betts, Boston Red Sox: MOOKIE
3. Shohei Ohtani, Los Angeles Angels: SHOWTIME
4. Charlie Blackmon, Colorado Rockies: CHUCK NAZTY
5. Anthony Rizzo, Chicago Cubs: TONY
This is actually the best one I have seen.
(https://www.mlbonlinejersey.shop/images/arizona-diamondbacks/men's-arizona-diamondbacks-31-brad-boxberger-black-2018-llws-players-weekend-box-hamburger-jersey.jpg)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 17, 2018, 10:38:36 AM
@darrenrovell
Best selling nickname jerseys for MLB Players Weekend so far:
1. Javier Baez, Chicago Cubs: EL MAGO
I didn't know MAGO was Spanish for "Best Slider & Best Tagger"!
Quote from: MU82 on August 17, 2018, 01:54:12 PM
I didn't know MAGO was Spanish for "Best Slider & Best Tagger"!
You kid, but that's how he got the name El Mago.
Quote from: MU82 on August 17, 2018, 01:54:12 PM
I didn't know MAGO was Spanish for "Best Slider & Best Tagger"!
El Mago is Spanish for "The Mago."
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on August 17, 2018, 02:44:24 PM
El Mago is Spanish for "The Mago."
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/elnino.gif)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 17, 2018, 10:38:36 AM
@darrenrovell
Best selling nickname jerseys for MLB Players Weekend so far:
1. Javier Baez, Chicago Cubs: EL MAGO
2. Mookie Betts, Boston Red Sox: MOOKIE
3. Shohei Ohtani, Los Angeles Angels: SHOWTIME
4. Charlie Blackmon, Colorado Rockies: CHUCK NAZTY
5. Anthony Rizzo, Chicago Cubs: TONY
Outside of Rizzo, those are very exciting players.
Buster Olney tweeted that hitting a batter with a pitch because he's doing well against you is like a batter charging the mount and bashing the pitcher with his bat because the pitcher had a no-hitter going.
That's a pretty good analogy IMHO.
I really believe there is nothing more chickenshyte than hitting a guy who is playing well against you. Suspensions should be swift and harsh.
How ewe feel 'bout hackin' a defender woo just picked yo pocket on his wey ta a breakaway layup, hey?
I like Cole.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 17, 2018, 08:29:34 PM
How ewe feel 'bout hackin' a defender woo just picked yo pocket on his wey ta a breakaway layup, hey?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/giphy.gif)
Quote from: MU82 on August 17, 2018, 07:03:05 PM
Buster Olney tweeted that hitting a batter with a pitch because he's doing well against you is like a batter charging the mount and bashing the pitcher with his bat because the pitcher had a no-hitter going.
That's a pretty good analogy IMHO.
I really believe there is nothing more chickenshyte than hitting a guy who is playing well against you. Suspensions should be swift and harsh.
Haha. Seems like a decent analogy to me. Even more funny when you consider how crazy pitchers get when a guy bunts during a potential no no.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 17, 2018, 08:29:34 PM
How ewe feel 'bout hackin' a defender woo just picked yo pocket on his wey ta a breakaway layup, hey?
Huh?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 17, 2018, 08:29:34 PM
How ewe feel 'bout hackin' a defender woo just picked yo pocket on his wey ta a breakaway layup, hey?
Eye thank et eez a punk-azzed muve.
The A's are a remarkable story. One game out.
https://twitter.com/MLB/status/1030869435328815105?s=19
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 18, 2018, 01:47:05 PM
The A's are a remarkable story. One game out.
For 2 more innings.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 18, 2018, 05:06:09 PM
For 2 more innings.
Yep.Tied for first with a bunch of Cubs, Brewers and Sox rejects. Cahill with the win today.
Pretty sure da Brew Crew has officially shot der load, hey?
that schoop guy sure hasn't worked out to well
Stick a fork in the brew crew.
Not a bold statement, but guessing Darvish's season is over after today.
Michael Kopech is being called up by the White Sox to start Tuesday.
The Sox should sign her up!
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/08/19/force-habit-nun-throws-out-perfect-first-pitch-at-white-sox-game.html
Quote from: muwarrior69 on August 20, 2018, 08:15:43 AM
The Sox should sign her up!
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/08/19/force-habit-nun-throws-out-perfect-first-pitch-at-white-sox-game.html
That's some game face.
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on August 18, 2018, 10:23:09 PM
Stick a fork in the brew crew.
Depends on if April/May Counsel shows up for the rest of the season or July Counsel is here to say. He's got the look of the Russian hockey coach in the 3rd period of the Lake Placid game right now and it's not good. The fact that he left his best reliever on the bench who had at least a week of rest for a very high leverage situation on Friday against the Cardinals is inexplicable.
He may not be great tonight, or not meet the wildly high expectations immediately, but I am pumped for KopechDay. I was fortunate enough to get to spend a few hours with him this past January and he was awesome to me and my family. Hope he has a great future with the Sox and can't wait to see him pitch in person tonight.
Quote from: MUDish on August 21, 2018, 09:48:47 AM
He may not be great tonight, or not meet the wildly high expectations immediately, but I am pumped for KopechDay. I was fortunate enough to get to spend a few hours with him this past January and he was awesome to me and my family. Hope he has a great future with the Sox and can't wait to see him pitch in person tonight.
I'ma little jealous. I wish I could be there. I hope the weather hilds out for the game.
Baseball America's Best Tools Awards as voted on by scouts, managers, and execs:
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2018-mlb-best-tools/ (https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2018-mlb-best-tools/)
Notable Categories:
Best Manager - Craig Counsel
Most Exciting Player - Javy Baez
Best Infield Arm - Javy Baez
Daniel Murphy likely to Cubs.
Daniel Murphy to Cubs confirmed.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 21, 2018, 01:28:54 PM
Baseball America's Best Tools Awards as voted on by scouts, managers, and execs:
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2018-mlb-best-tools/ (https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2018-mlb-best-tools/)
Notable Categories:
Best Manager - Craig Counsel
Most Exciting Player - Javy Baez
Best Infield Arm - Javy Baez
I'm going to assume that all of these scouts, managers, and execs are misinformed since best tagger is not a category. Don't they know that its the only thing that matters in baseball.
Quote from: Its DJOver on August 21, 2018, 01:36:40 PM
I'm going to assume that all of these scouts, managers, and execs are misinformed since best tagger is not a category. Don't they know that its the only thing that matters in baseball.
Duh, it's called the Javi Baez Best Tagger After Me Award for a reason.
Roids!
I can't stand Murphy but the offense has been a disaster since the break so I get it. He's terrible defensively as well.
Russell's hand injury has made him basically useless at the plate.
In his last 19 games he's had a .920 OPS.
They didn't give up anything so whatever. Jim Edmonds was my most hated player before he became a Cub.
I like Murphy, good move by the Cubs. At first I wondered if it meant maybe Bryant was delayed in coming back, but could be just moving Russell to the bench permanently the rest of the year.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 21, 2018, 01:53:43 PM
Roids!
I thought of you when Arrieta was talking to kids for quite some time during the LLWS. I can't believe those parents would trust their kids to a guy who was gonna get them hooked on 'roids. Or maybe that's why they had their kids sit with him!
Quote from: MU82 on August 21, 2018, 02:38:14 PM
I thought of you when Arrieta was talking to kids for quite some time during the LLWS. I can't believe those parents would trust their kids to a guy who was gonna get them hooked on 'roids. Or maybe that's why they had their kids sit with him!
No doubt! Instant millionaires? Easy.
Quote from: MUDish on August 21, 2018, 02:36:51 PM
I like Murphy, good move by the Cubs. At first I wondered if it meant maybe Bryant was delayed in coming back, but could be just moving Russell to the bench permanently the rest of the year.
Good get for the Cubs. He can get hot and carry a team for a week. Excellent insurance for Bryant.
Quote from: MU82 on August 21, 2018, 03:02:56 PM
Good get for the Cubs. He can get hot and carry a team for a week. Excellent insurance for Bryant.
Absolutely, low risk move with a lot of upside. Great insurance bat with playoff experience.
Still havent forgiven him for the 2015 NLCS where he was an absolute monster, but Id love to have others feel the fear I felt when he was at the plate in critical situations in Sept/Oct.
Quote from: MU82 on August 21, 2018, 03:02:56 PM
Good get for the Cubs. He can get hot and carry a team for a week. Excellent insurance for Bryant.
I think Murphy plays 2B, Javy goes to SS, Addison goes to DL. Bote stays at 3B until Bryant is healthy. Zobrist spells Murphy occasionally.
As someone who hates the Cubs, I hate this move. Murphy instantly becomes their best (not most powerful, dangerous or of course -- exciting) hitter. He is a completely different style hitter from anything they have and makes them much more dangerous lineup.
I honestly can't believe he made it through the rest of the NL.
And I had the right team for Harper, they just couldn't get the deal done.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 21, 2018, 01:35:54 PM
Daniel Murphy to Cubs confirmed.
If you can't beat him, make him join you...
I would change the channel if I was watching a Cubs game and he came to bat because I didn't want to see him hit ANOTHER home run. At least that is what it seemed like. I hope he doesn't suck against everyone but the Cubs.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 21, 2018, 04:55:21 PM
I honestly can't believe he made it through the rest of the NL.
I'm surprised the Brewers didn't make a claim just to block the Cubs. Worst case they get stuck with another middle infielder.
Holy shitballs.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 21, 2018, 07:59:47 PM
I'm surprised the Brewers didn't make a claim just to block the Cubs. Worst case they get stuck with another middle infielder.
Ehh the Brewers are going to waste talent to block the Cubs, who are going to win the division anyways, a middle infielder? Sterns isn't that petty or that stupid.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 21, 2018, 10:32:34 PM
Ehh the Brewers are going to waste talent to block the Cubs, who are going to win the division anyways, a middle infielder? Sterns isn't that petty or that stupid.
Not really, at all. How would they have been wasting talent?
Before the rain delay, Kopech struck out Mauer to end the inning. My son Bradley was lucky and is now in possession of that ball that was strike 3.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 21, 2018, 10:32:34 PM
Ehh the Brewers are going to waste talent to block the Cubs, who are going to win the division anyways, a middle infielder? Sterns isn't that petty or that stupid.
Worst case for the Brewers, they just eat the remainder of Murphy's contract for the year and get a decent hitter The Brewers wouldn't have to give up any talent.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 22, 2018, 08:17:03 AM
Worst case for the Brewers, they just eat the remainder of Murphy's contract for the year and get a decent hitter The Brewers wouldn't have to give up any talent.
There was a stretch a few years back (I can't remember when exactly) that a few of these guys were claimed just so the opponent didn't get him. That seems very, very rare now.
In this case, TT34, I agree with you for the exact reason you state. If Murphy helps the Cubs the way, say, Edmonds did in 2008, and if the Brewers finish a game behind the Cubs and miss the postseason, they will deserve some scorn.
Quote from: MU82 on August 22, 2018, 01:14:16 PM
There was a stretch a few years back (I can't remember when exactly) that a few of these guys were claimed just so the opponent didn't get him. That seems very, very rare now.
In this case, TT34, I agree with you for the exact reason you state. If Murphy helps the Cubs the way, say, Edmonds did in 2008, and if the Brewers finish a game behind the Cubs and miss the postseason, they will deserve some scorn.
Wasn't that Alex Rios to the Sox? Buck?
Quote from: MUDish on August 22, 2018, 12:05:45 AM
Before the rain delay, Kopech struck out Mauer to end the inning. My son Bradley was lucky and is now in possession of that ball that was strike 3.
That's awesome.
Rios was a $60 million block. But they got some good years from him.
Quote from: MU82 on August 22, 2018, 01:14:16 PM
There was a stretch a few years back (I can't remember when exactly) that a few of these guys were claimed just so the opponent didn't get him. That seems very, very rare now.
I think this still happens, just more often than not the team offering the player pulls him back off waivers.
Between every Cubs fan I've ever known claiming Murphy was on steroids and then getting all mad that a Brewers fan would claim Jake Arrieta was on steroids plus Murphy's comments on Billy Beane's homosexuality following Cubs fans outrage at Hader's Tweets as a teenager, seeing how fast Cubs fans can backpedal is going to be awesome to watch if Murphy plays well for them.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 22, 2018, 03:05:30 PM
Between every Cubs fan I've ever known claiming Murphy was on steroids and then getting all mad that a Brewers fan would claim Jake Arrieta was on steroids plus Murphy's comments on Billy Beane's homosexuality following Cubs fans outrage at Hader's Tweets as a teenager, seeing how fast Cubs fans can backpedal is going to be awesome to watch if Murphy plays well for them.
Did every Cubs fan go out of their way to bring it up in any baseball conversation? And I'm pretty sure there is no backpedaling cause every comment has been along the lines of "hate Murphy for killing the Cubs in 2015, but hope he helps in the post season"
And if you can't find the difference between "i hate gay people" and Murphy's statement, then you're just looking for drama. I don't agree with him, but Billy Bean has openly complimented him since the statements, but sure, your narrative plays.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 22, 2018, 04:35:02 PM
Did every Cubs fan go out of their way to bring it up in any baseball conversation? And I'm pretty sure there is no backpedaling cause every comment has been along the lines of "hate Murphy for killing the Cubs in 2015, but hope he helps in the post season"
And if you can't find the difference between "i hate gay people" and Murphy's statement, then you're just looking for drama. I don't agree with him, but Billy Bean has openly complimented him since the statements, but sure, your narrative plays.
You must've missed Billy Bean's comments on Josh Hader my friend.
First I was accused of TT of not bringing up Arrieta's steroid use since he left the Cubs and joined the Phillies, now I'm accused of going out of my way to bring up Arrieta's steroid use in any baseball conversation. Both play I guess.
This is my exact point. It's not cool when a Brewers fan is doing it, but when a Cubs fan is doing it IT'S DIFFERENT DUDE!
Hilarious.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 22, 2018, 03:01:47 PM
I think this still happens, just more often than not the team offering the player pulls him back off waivers.
Yeah, there really isn't any way of knowing. I think very few of them ever get reported.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 22, 2018, 03:05:30 PM
Between every Cubs fan I've ever known claiming Murphy was on steroids and then getting all mad that a Brewers fan would claim Jake Arrieta was on steroids plus Murphy's comments on Billy Beane's homosexuality following Cubs fans outrage at Hader's Tweets as a teenager, seeing how fast Cubs fans can backpedal is going to be awesome to watch if Murphy plays well for them.
I haven't seen any Cubs fans here or elsewhere excuse Murphy for his comments.
I also don't recall anyone accusing Daniel Murphy of steroids. Sure Cubs fans didn't like the guy after what he did to them in 2015 but I don't recall anyone accusing him of steroids.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 22, 2018, 04:54:35 PM
You must've missed Billy Bean's comments on Josh Hader my friend.
First I was accused of TT of not bringing up Arrieta's steroid use since he left the Cubs and joined the Phillies, now I'm accused of going out of my way to bring up Arrieta's steroid use in any baseball conversation. Both play I guess.
This is my exact point. It's not cool when a Brewers fan is doing it, but when a Cubs fan is doing it IT'S DIFFERENT DUDE!
Hilarious.
I'm not TT, and yes, you brought up Arrieta and roids damn near weekly. If you claim to have no since he went to Philly, that changes nothing. Please go back and show all the Cubs fans screaming about Murphy and roids with even a sliver of frequency of your beating of a dead horse.
And like TT just said, nobody is excusing him for anything. But this constant need to act like Cubs fans are high and mighty when they commented on a league wide story and most everyone agreed that people often root for less than shining individuals as long as they play for their squad. You and Bias are seemingly the only people with a pathological idea that Cubs fans think they have never done wrong.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 22, 2018, 05:52:44 PM
I'm not TT, and yes, you brought up Arrieta and roids damn near weekly. If you claim to have no since he went to Philly, that changes nothing. Please go back and show all the Cubs fans screaming about Murphy and roids with even a sliver of frequency of your beating of a dead horse.
And like TT just said, nobody is excusing him for anything. But this constant need to act like Cubs fans are high and mighty when they commented on a league wide story and most everyone agreed that people often root for less than shining individuals as long as they play for their squad. You and Bias are seemingly the only people with a pathological idea that Cubs fans think they have never done wrong.
Think Wrigley boos Murphy in his first plate appearance like they would've if Hader was a Cubbie?
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 22, 2018, 07:02:35 PM
Think Wrigley boos Murphy in his first plate appearance like they would've if Hader was a Cubbie?
No. Nor would any other fan base.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 22, 2018, 07:02:35 PM
Think Wrigley boos Murphy in his first plate appearance like they would've if Hader was a Cubbie?
I'm pretty sure there is a difference between cheering a guy in his first at bat with a new team and cheering a guy in his first appearance since making a fool of himself.
There's a reason it won't be a nation wide story when he gets a cheer his first time at Wrigley.
If Hader got traded to the Dodgers, no one would care if he got a standing O in his first appearance in Dodger Stadium.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 22, 2018, 07:42:04 PM
I'm pretty sure there is a difference between cheering a guy in his first at bat with a new team and cheering a guy in his first appearance since making a fool of himself.
There's a reason it won't be a nation wide story when he gets a cheer his first time at Wrigley.
If Hader got traded to the Dodgers, no one would care if he got a standing O in his first appearance in Dodger Stadium.
Got it.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 22, 2018, 04:54:35 PM
Now I'm accused of going out of my way to bring up Arrieta's steroid use in any baseball conversation.
Hilarious.
We literally had a man beating a dead horse gif because you posted about it so much.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 22, 2018, 08:48:50 PM
We literally had a man beating a dead horse gif because you posted about it so much.
Good cut and paste job.
A much less heralded White Sox pitcher got called up today, reliever Ryan Burr. While he isn't the name of potential impact of Kopech, he is significant. One thing I love that the Sox have done in their rebuild is to focus on adding and developing guys specifically for relief roles. Hopefully that starts to pay off soon as a couple of the guys are in AAA and dominating. That is one part of the Sox that hopefully turns around pretty quickly next year with guys like Burr, Burdi, Hamilton (yes a Burr and Hamilton) and Frare. At least I sure hope so. That bullpen this year has been just a compete disaster.
The Cardinals are coming.
Hey Cub fans, remember that little red speck in your rear view mirror. It's now that red devil bird that covers the entire back window -- and it is getting closer and closer and closer and closer.
Cub fans, you want to guess what that white stuff on your trunk is? I suspect the red devil bird left a calling card!
The season still has a way to go, but the surprise of the year is that the Cardinals are even in the post-season conversation and, at 2.5 games back as of this writing, they're a contender to chase down the small bears. I'm actually excited again!
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 22, 2018, 09:57:31 PM
The Cardinals are coming.
Hey Cub fans, remember that little red speck in your rear view mirror. It's now that red devil bird that covers the entire back window -- and it is getting closer and closer and closer and closer.
Cub fans, you want to guess what that white stuff on your trunk is? I suspect the red devil bird left a calling card!
The season still has a way to go, but the surprise of the year is that the Cardinals are even in the post-season conversation and, at 2.5 games back as of this writing, they're a contender to chase down the small bears. I'm actually excited again!
Somebody has been weeknight drinking
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 22, 2018, 09:57:31 PM
The Cardinals are coming.
Hey Cub fans, remember that little red speck in your rear view mirror. It's now that red devil bird that covers the entire back window -- and it is getting closer and closer and closer and closer.
Cub fans, you want to guess what that white stuff on your trunk is? I suspect the red devil bird left a calling card!
The season still has a way to go, but the surprise of the year is that the Cardinals are even in the post-season conversation and, at 2.5 games back as of this writing, they're a contender to chase down the small bears. I'm actually excited again!
Oh, not to be a stickler but as of your writing, the Cards are 3 back.
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/white-sox-escape-eventful-rundown-in-win-over-twins/c-291484370
A couple great examples of how not to execute a rundown. Back to back days. Yikes Twins.
Quote from: MUEng92 on August 22, 2018, 10:09:47 PM
Oh, not to be a stickler but as of your writing, the Cards are 3 back.
But they were 7 back a week ago and they're 3 back with about 35 to go.
They're looking better than they have all year. They're 17-4 in August and went from a game above .500 to 12 after they swept the Los Angeles Dodgers in Dodger Stadium.
Keep in mind that a sweep of the Dodgers in Los Angeles generally is about as rare as a water surplus in the Los Angeles Basin. It happens, but not very often.
Admittedly, there is still a way to go. But the turn-around has been pretty good.
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 22, 2018, 09:57:31 PM
The Cardinals are coming.
Hey Cub fans, remember that little red speck in your rear view mirror. It's now that red devil bird that covers the entire back window -- and it is getting closer and closer and closer and closer.
Cub fans, you want to guess what that white stuff on your trunk is? I suspect the red devil bird left a calling card!
The season still has a way to go, but the surprise of the year is that the Cardinals are even in the post-season conversation and, at 2.5 games back as of this writing, they're a contender to chase down the small bears. I'm actually excited again!
How many baseballs have miraculously stuck to Yadier's Jordan (lol) catcher gear?
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 22, 2018, 11:32:47 PM
But they were 7 back a week ago and they're 3 back with about 35 to go.
They're looking better than they have all year. They're 16-4 in August and went from a game above .500 to 11 or 12 depending on whether they beat the Dodgers tonight.
Admittedly, there is still a way to go. But the turn-around has been pretty good.
Thank god for the rest of the central that Weaver inexplicably fell apart and the Holland contract cost them $14M and 6-8 games, or they'd have a half dozen game lead right now.
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 22, 2018, 11:32:47 PM
But they were 7 back a week ago and they're 3 back with about 35 to go.
They're looking better than they have all year. They're 17-4 in August and went from a game above .500 to 12 after they swept the Los Angeles Dodgers in Dodger Stadium.
Keep in mind that a sweep of the Dodgers in Los Angeles generally is about as rare as a water surplus in the Los Angeles Basin. It happens, but not very often.
Admittedly, there is still a way to go. But the turn-around has been pretty good.
I heard yall had a really rough schedule this month.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on August 23, 2018, 09:14:18 AM
I heard yall had a really rough schedule this month.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos
Both your schedules are easy.
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 22, 2018, 11:32:47 PM
But they were 7 back a week ago and they're 3 back with about 35 to go.
They're looking better than they have all year. They're 17-4 in August and went from a game above .500 to 12 after they swept the Los Angeles Dodgers in Dodger Stadium.
Keep in mind that a sweep of the Dodgers in Los Angeles generally is about as rare as a water surplus in the Los Angeles Basin. It happens, but not very often.
Admittedly, there is still a way to go. But the turn-around has been pretty good.
Do you think the Cards will continue playing .810 ball? Do you think the Cubs will continue struggle so much offensively with Murphy added and Bryant on his way back.
What the Cards have done is astounding and they're clearly a contender so it'll certainly be interesting, especially with the last series of the season in Wrigley if no one has clinched the division yet.
And no, I'm not writing off Milwaukee either.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 22, 2018, 03:05:30 PM
Between every Cubs fan I've ever known claiming Murphy was on steroids and then getting all mad that a Brewers fan would claim Jake Arrieta was on steroids plus Murphy's comments on Billy Beane's homosexuality following Cubs fans outrage at Hader's Tweets as a teenager, seeing how fast Cubs fans can backpedal is going to be awesome to watch if Murphy plays well for them.
1) Arrieta didn't use steroids. In your scattered brain, do you still think he's using to this very day?
2) As others have stated, let's see some evidence of "every Cub fan you've ever known" claiming Murphy was on 'roids.
3) I'm not a Murphy fan and his comments regarding homosexuality were disappointing and misguided. If he's truly taken steps to learn more and be more accepting since then good for him.
4) Comparing what Murphy said years ago and how Cubs fans will react to him tonight vs. what was discovered recently and how Brewers fans reacted is a ridiculous comparison. Again, age is no excuse for Hader's tweets. If he's evolved and no longer feels that way good for him as well. I'll be at the game tonight and will politely applaud for Murphy. If he gets any kind of standing ovation it'll be embarrassing.
5) You're bizarre viewpoint of "all Cubs fans" behaving in a certain way is pathological and you should probably talk to someone. It makes you look like an idiot.
I'm hoping for a seven way tie for two wild card spots. I'm also hoping the Cubs win the division and avoid that mess.
You could have 8 teams tied for the best record in the NL. You'd have to figure out division winners first then the other 5 would battle for two wild card spots.
I'd enjoy that chaos.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 23, 2018, 09:36:14 AM
1) Arrieta didn't use steroids. In your scattered brain, do you still think he's using to this very day?
2) As others have stated, let's see some evidence of "every Cub fan you've ever known" claiming Murphy was on 'roids.
3) I'm not a Murphy fan and his comments regarding homosexuality were disappointing and misguided. If he's truly taken steps to learn more and be more accepting since then good for him.
4) Comparing what Murphy said years ago and how Cubs fans will react to him tonight vs. what was discovered recently and how Brewers fans reacted is a ridiculous comparison. Again, age is no excuse for Hader's tweets. If he's evolved and no longer feels that way good for him as well. I'll be at the game tonight and will politely applaud for Murphy. If he gets any kind of standing ovation it'll be embarrassing.
5) You're bizarre viewpoint of "all Cubs fans" behaving in a certain way is pathological and you should probably talk to someone. It makes you look like an idiot.
I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread looks like an idiot at this point.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 23, 2018, 09:36:14 AM
1) Arrieta didn't use steroids. In your scattered brain, do you still think he's using to this very day?
2) As others have stated, let's see some evidence of "every Cub fan you've ever known" claiming Murphy was on 'roids.
3) I'm not a Murphy fan and his comments regarding homosexuality were disappointing and misguided. If he's truly taken steps to learn more and be more accepting since then good for him.
4) Comparing what Murphy said years ago and how Cubs fans will react to him tonight vs. what was discovered recently and how Brewers fans reacted is a ridiculous comparison. Again, age is no excuse for Hader's tweets. If he's evolved and no longer feels that way good for him as well. I'll be at the game tonight and will politely applaud for Murphy. If he gets any kind of standing ovation it'll be embarrassing.
5) You're bizarre viewpoint of "all Cubs fans" behaving in a certain way is pathological and you should probably talk to someone. It makes you look like an idiot.
So Murphy's homophobic comments as an adult are less shocking and damaging because they were made years ago as opposed to Josh Hader's as a teenager because they...were made years ago but discovered this year?
Got it.
And my apologies. I didn't keep my text messages and/or record my personal conversations from October of 2015. I cannot provide hard evidence. Therefor you are right, Cubs fans were not claiming Daniel Murphy was on steroids when he was mashing homeruns every single game at Wrigley Field. ::) Their coaching staff and pitcher simply hint at opponents using PEDs when they have the most obvious PED user in the game on their own team (at the time). But their fans certainly wouldn't do such an asinine thing as claiming a player who has never failed a drug test, so can't possibly have ever used PEDs in his life, was using PEDs.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 23, 2018, 10:04:04 AM
So Murphy's homophobic comments as an adult are less shocking and damaging because they were made years ago as opposed to Josh Hader's as a teenager because they...were made years ago but discovered this year?
Hader said he hates gay people and used slurs. Murphy said he'd have zero problems with a gay teammate, he just disagrees with the lifestyle because he is Catholic.
Both are disappointing, but you really can't see the difference?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 23, 2018, 10:09:45 AM
Hader said he hates gay people and used racial slurs. Murphy said he has no problems with gay people, he just disagrees with the lifestyle because he is Catholic.
Both are disappointing thoughts but you really can't see the difference?
I can see the difference between a 17 year old Tweeting stupid inappropriate things and an adult saying he 100% disagrees with a person's lifestyle because they are gay. Yes, I see a difference.
I'm also not going to pretend I'm totally outraged by one and then simply say, "There's a difference, one is Catholic!"
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 23, 2018, 10:10:57 AM
I can see the difference between a 17 year old Tweeting stupid inappropriate things and an adult saying he 100% disagrees with a person's lifestyle because they are gay. Yes, I see a difference.
I'm also not going to pretend I'm totally outraged by one and then simply say, "There's a difference, one is Catholic!"
Both Hader and Murphy are wrong.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 23, 2018, 10:10:57 AM
I'm also not going to pretend I'm totally outraged by one and then simply say, "There's a difference, one is Catholic!"
So instead you are outraged by Murphy and then for Hader simply say "He was 17".
So back to the race. Let's not forget the schedule. The Cubs have one more win than the Cards or Cubs. However, they have played 3 less games than the Cards and 4 less than the Brewers.
Advantage? I think it is better to control your own fate. Fatigue may be an issue but rosters are expanding soon. The Cubs bats have been heavy, but Murphy and Bryant return gives Maddon more roster flexibility, something he is great at.
The Dodgers sure aren't running away with the race with their big post-All Star game moves.
The Cubs need Monty back and someone to give quality starts at the 5. Hammels has been a season saver so far. The Brewers get some healthy depth back. The Cards have the easiest schedule to go. Last weekend?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 23, 2018, 10:22:10 AM
So instead you are outraged by Murphy and then for Hader simply say "He was 17".
Not sure where you're getting outraged at Murphy from...
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 22, 2018, 11:32:47 PM
Keep in mind that a sweep of the Dodgers in Los Angeles generally is about as rare as a water surplus in the Los Angeles Basin. It happens, but not very often.
I'm, not saying the Cardinals aren't hot right now, but, the Dodgers are below .500 at home and we're swept at home -- in a four game series-- by the Reds in May.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on August 23, 2018, 11:16:23 AM
I'm, not saying the Cardinals aren't hot right now, but, the Dodgers are below .500 at home and we're swept at home -- in a four game series-- by the Reds in May.
Something amazing, Reds division. As of like 2 days ago the Reds were .500 in games not started by Homer Bailey and 1-16 (or so can't exactly remember) is games he starts. Yikes!
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 23, 2018, 11:25:20 AM
Something amazing, Reds division. As of like 2 days ago the Reds were .500 in games not started by Homer Bailey and 1-16 (or so can't exactly remember) is games he starts. Yikes!
Homer Bailey has two fantastic pitching performances in back to back years, and despite never having an above average WAR or exceptional year by any metric, gets wildly overpaid and then gets hurt and pitches like crap throughout the duration of his contract. Between him and Bronson Arroyo. Reds love paying princely sums for mediocrity on the mound.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 23, 2018, 12:22:11 PM
Homer Bailey has two fantastic pitching performances in back to back years, and despite never having an above average WAR or exceptional year by any metric, gets wildly overpaid and then gets hurt and pitches like crap throughout the duration of his contract. Between him and Bronson Arroyo. Reds love paying princely sums for mediocrity on the mound.
Hard to just pin that on the Reds. That is a chronic problem throughout baseball. There are very few rosters which do not include a pitcher that is wildly overpaid (and was thought to be at the time.) Heck, there are few that have done a better job than Brian Sabean and Bobby Evans in SF, yet given the chance, they heaped money on Jeff Samardizja. Houston may be the only team, that is good, and not historically frugal (Rays, A's) that doesn't have a guy like that on their roster. Pitching contracts turn ugly quickly. Often in the season following their signing.
*** and in what is probably the coolest story of the day, the Rockies have added Matt Holliday back to the MLB roster.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 23, 2018, 01:17:38 PM
There are very few rosters which do not include a pitcher that is wildly overpaid (and was thought to be at the time.)
Brewers did something well!*
*At least I'm pretty sure Suppan, Lohse, and Garza are finally all off the books
Andrew McCutchen has cleared waivers.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 23, 2018, 02:07:04 PM
Andrew McCutchen has cleared waivers.
Cleveland would have to be the most likely destination for him, yeah? Otherwise maybe the Yankees with Judge out for the better part of another month or Atl to platoon with Markakis and do the "vet leadership" thing.
I realize this will sound silly in old school baseball terms, but in a year with no clear favorite, one could argue that Nola is the NL MVP, and have him not win the Cy Young (I think deGrom wins it).
His 8th inning K of Harper with runners at 1st and 2nd, to keep the shut out going, that was as clutch a performance from a pitcher this year. I realize he only plays once every 5 days, but without Nola, the Phillies are not in playoff contention this season.
Quote from: MUDish on August 23, 2018, 03:25:33 PM
I realize this will sound silly in old school baseball terms, but in a year with no clear favorite, one could argue that Nola is the NL MVP, and have him not win the Cy Young (I think deGrom wins it).
His 8th inning K of Harper with runners at 1st and 2nd, to keep the shut out going, that was as clutch a performance from a pitcher this year. I realize he only plays once every 5 days, but without Nola, the Phillies are not in playoff contention this season.
No Scherzer love?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 23, 2018, 04:01:32 PM
No Scherzer love?
I love him and he's having an awesome year, I don't think one can go wrong with Nola/Scherzer/deGrom for the Cy Young, it's almost splitting hairs. If I had a vote, I'd personally give it to deGrom. Of the three and their respective teams this particular season, I think with the Mets/Nats underachieving, I think Nola has been the most valuable to his team.
All three guys have been total studs, I'd not argue anyone saying Scherzer is the best of the three this year.
Quote from: MUDish on August 23, 2018, 04:10:47 PM
I think with the Mets/Nats underachieving, I think Nola has been the most valuable to his team.
Agreed!
Quote from: chapman on August 23, 2018, 01:38:09 PM
Brewers did something well!*
*At least I'm pretty sure Suppan, Lohse, and Garza are finally all off the books
Still paying Lohse.
Quote from: MUDish on August 21, 2018, 09:48:47 AM
He may not be great tonight, or not meet the wildly high expectations immediately, but I am pumped for KopechDay. I was fortunate enough to get to spend a few hours with him this past January and he was awesome to me and my family. Hope he has a great future with the Sox and can't wait to see him pitch in person tonight.
as someone who has spent some time with the guy personally do you think that the 22 year old kopech has matured and changed since he was tweeting racist, homophobic stupid things as a 17 year old high schooler or do you believe kopech is a racist pos like the scoop cubs fans believe hater still is 8 years later?
I like Cole.
The Baez 481 foot shot was something to behold in person.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 23, 2018, 10:27:31 PM
The Baez 481 foot shot was something to behold in person.
Yeah, he really tagged it.
You like how I slid that in there?
Quote from: MU82 on August 23, 2018, 11:04:29 PM
Yeah, he really tagged it.
You like how I slid that in there?
Nicely done.
Quote from: WithoutBias on August 23, 2018, 09:44:30 PM
as someone who has spent some time with the guy personally do you think that the 22 year old kopech has matured and changed since he was tweeting racist, homophobic stupid things as a 17 year old high schooler or do you believe kopech is a racist pos like the scoop cubs fans believe hater still is 8 years later?
I can't speak to Kopech's inner personality and what his views/beliefs are. I've spent a lot of time around pro athletes at events with and without cameras, and can confidently say Kopech demonstrated he gets "it". The interaction I had with him may have been part of his maturation process. I obviously don't support what he said 5 years ago, but I also saw him ask if he could go to a few patients rooms where kids were too sick to come to the event (no cameras or PR people were anywhere when he did this).
Two days after we met him, I was leaving SoxFest with my son going out to Mich Ave to catch a cab. Unbeknownst to me, Kopech was standing about ten feet away from us (with his then girlfriend). No one recognized him, hell I didn't. He saw me texting on my phone, and came over and said bye to my son and I, shook our hands, and wished us well.
I believe he has recognized his past mistakes on Twitter, addressed them, and I hope he continues to show a side that I saw to not just me, but everyone.
Quote from: MUDish on August 23, 2018, 04:10:47 PM
I love him and he's having an awesome year, I don't think one can go wrong with Nola/Scherzer/deGrom for the Cy Young, it's almost splitting hairs. If I had a vote, I'd personally give it to deGrom. Of the three and their respective teams this particular season, I think with the Mets/Nats underachieving, I think Nola has been the most valuable to his team.
All three guys have been total studs, I'd not argue anyone saying Scherzer is the best of the three this year.
You make a good argument.
Soooooooo Harvey?
If I were the Reds and couldn't strike a trade, I would just give him to the Brewers so I don't have to pay the remainder of his money.
I honestly don't know why the Reds didn't do a deal. They get exactly zero after 6-7 more starts.
Harvey was throwing a gem until the 6th.
Guessing with him starting the Brewers couldnt make a deal.
Quote from: jsglow on August 24, 2018, 03:02:46 PM
I honestly don't know why the Reds didn't do a deal. They get exactly zero after 6-7 more starts.
My only guess is that the Brewers offer must have been so low, that the Reds turned it down just to show that the front office is willing to play hardball for future deals? Makes some degree of sense if the Brewers would only take him as a salary dump but the Reds wanted to pay the $1.5M or so left on his deal in exchange for a fringy prospect.
An additional weird way to look at it (as I peek at the Cin-ChC box score) is that if Harvey was going to give the Brewers 5 starts by replacing Anderson or Guerra, what is the marginal utility of that upgrade for MKE vs Harvey making projected starts for the Reds vs the Cubs, the Cards and LAD.
Quote from: MUBurrow on August 24, 2018, 03:09:21 PM
My only guess is that the Brewers offer must have been so low, that the Reds turned it down just to show that the front office is willing to play hardball for future deals? Makes some degree of sense if the Brewers would only take him as a salary dump but the Reds wanted to pay the $1.5M or so left on his deal in exchange for a fringy prospect.
Most likely what happened. Reds didn't like the lowball. 1.1m isn't to much to pay. Sterns doesn't want to give up anything substantial this year for a half full glass pennant race.
Quote from: MUBurrow on August 24, 2018, 03:09:21 PM
My only guess is that the Brewers offer must have been so low, that the Reds turned it down just to show that the front office is willing to play hardball for future deals? Makes some degree of sense if the Brewers would only take him as a salary dump but the Reds wanted to pay the $1.5M or so left on his deal in exchange for a fringy prospect.
Perhaps. But doesn't it also seem that they overvalued him on 7/31 and didn't get any deal done then either? Now they are guaranteed to get zero because you can't test the waiver wire more than once if I'm correct.
Quote from: MUBurrow on August 24, 2018, 03:14:19 PM
An additional weird way to look at it (as I peek at the Cin-ChC box score) is that if Harvey was going to give the Brewers 5 starts by replacing Anderson or Guerra, what is the marginal utility of that upgrade for MKE vs Harvey making projected starts for the Reds vs the Cubs, the Cards and LAD.
Great point. Here's hoping he's 'all in' positioning himself for a job next year.
Bote strikes again! Kris who?
THE MAN THE MYTH THE LEGEND
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 23, 2018, 10:27:31 PM
I like Cole.
The Baez 481 foot shot was something to behold in person.
Reminds me of an interesting question for all of us.
As a young child Dad took us to see a Twins vs Tigers game in the old Met (probably 1963). Drizzly rain and no scoring made it tedious until in the bottom of the eighth ....BOOM.....Harmon Killebrew launched a gigantic solo shot....the biggest home run I ever saw in person. Measured back then at 507 feet the ball flew out of the park. 507 was the top of the bleacher fence that it cleared, so...in today's system it might even have been longer. At least 50 years later it remains biggest home run shot I ever saw, in person.
So....all....what was the most monumental homer you witnessed in person?
Quote from: houwarrior on August 24, 2018, 05:10:03 PM
Reminds me of an interesting question for all of us.
As a young child Dad took us to see a Twins vs Tigers game in the old Met (probably 1963). Drizzly rain and no scoring made it tedious until in the bottom of the eighth ....BOOM.....Harmon Killebrew launched a gigantic solo shot....the biggest home run I ever saw in person. Measured back then at 507 feet the ball flew out of the park. 507 was the top of the bleacher fence that it cleared, so...in today's system it might even have been longer. At least 50 years later it remains biggest home run shot I ever saw, in person.
So....all....what was the most monumental homer you witnessed in person?
I may have seen longer and more impressive, but I was at Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS between the Cubs and Dodgers where Manny took a slow breaking ball almost out of the dirt and golfed it 450 feet to center field. It was 4-2 in the top of the 7th and it was a back breaker. Also when I was like "yep, he's juicing" cause that was a preposterous pitch to drive that damn far.
Quote from: houwarrior on August 24, 2018, 05:10:03 PM
Reminds me of an interesting question for all of us.
As a young child Dad took us to see a Twins vs Tigers game in the old Met (probably 1963). Drizzly rain and no scoring made it tedious until in the bottom of the eighth ....BOOM.....Harmon Killebrew launched a gigantic solo shot....the biggest home run I ever saw in person. Measured back then at 507 feet the ball flew out of the park. 507 was the top of the bleacher fence that it cleared, so...in today's system it might even have been longer. At least 50 years later it remains biggest home run shot I ever saw, in person.
So....all....what was the most monumental homer you witnessed in person?
I was in the left center field bleachers at County Stadium when Cecil Fielder hit one out...of the stadium.
Ah, here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTPxdDU2iPo
As good as Lindor and Ramirez are, the Indians are going nowhere in the post season cause their bullpen is just horrific. Cody Allen just gave up back to back solo HRs on less than 5 pitches to blow the game in the bottom of 9. My friends are at their wits end.
I was at the Miller Park Home Run Derby when Sammy crushed a number of bombs. Only mention of a measurement I could find was that "several were over 500 ft".
Cue the 15 straight posts about steroids...
Quote from: MUEng92 on August 24, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
I was at the Miller Park Home Run Derby when Sammy crushed a number of bombs. Only mention of a measurement I could find was that "several were over 500 ft".
Cue the 15 straight posts about steroids...
Never tested positive. Guy obviously didn't do roids.
And forgot how to speak English.
And grabbed his BP bat on accident.
Leggo!
Quote from: MUEng92 on August 24, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
I was at the Miller Park Home Run Derby when Sammy crushed a number of bombs. Only mention of a measurement I could find was that "several were over 500 ft".
Cue the 15 straight posts about steroids...
Didn't he break the window behind the outfield?
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 24, 2018, 05:55:17 PM
I was in the left center field bleachers at County Stadium when Cecil Fielder hit one out...of the stadium.
Ah, here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTPxdDU2iPo
While it was not that long, I was mid-way up the left field bleachers when Gorman Thomas a line drive right at us. It seemed to take only about a second and a half to get to us, and we could hear it whiz from the ball spin right off the bat. No one tried to catch it, we all ducked.
Quote from: Archies Bat on August 25, 2018, 08:15:17 AM
While it was not that long, I was mid-way up the left field bleachers when Gorman Thomas a line drive right at us. It seemed to take only about a second and a half to get to us, and we could hear it whiz from the ball spin right off the bat. No one tried to catch it, we all ducked.
I was sitting in the upper deck along the left field line in the old County Stadium when Jose Conseco hit a screaming foul ball. People were scrambling to get out of the way when it hit it, but it ended up hitting the face of the deck with a huge THWACK and falling down below. One of the hardest hit balls I have seen.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 25, 2018, 12:29:52 AM
Never tested positive. Guy obviously didn't do roids.
And forgot how to speak English.
And grabbed his BP bat on accident.
I don't think you are going to find any Cubs fans who think he was clean to battle you.
Lore says this was one of the longest.
https://www.youtube.com/v/0vFMwBESelg
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 25, 2018, 08:40:04 AM
I don't think you are going to find any Cubs fans who think he was clean to battle you.
He's had a ton of texts and conversations with Cubs fans who swear Sosa is clean but just has no record of them.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 25, 2018, 10:29:10 AM
He's had a ton of texts and conversations with Cubs fans who swear Sosa is clean but just has no record of them.
I have? You've read my texts and seen my conversations with people? That's not creepy at all.
Not a big distance homerun, however, I was at the game when Sosa became the first player to ever hit 60 homeruns in back to back seasons.
Distance wise, I think Schwarber hitting the ball on top of the video board in game 4 of the 2015 NLDS was the longest homerun I've ever seen in person.
Quote from: Archies Bat on August 25, 2018, 08:15:17 AM
While it was not that long, I was mid-way up the left field bleachers when Gorman Thomas a line drive right at us. It seemed to take only about a second and a half to get to us, and we could hear it whiz from the ball spin right off the bat. No one tried to catch it, we all ducked.
My buddy and I went to St. Louis to watch the Brewers in a weekend series. Corey Hart smashed a line drive to the center field bleachers. It was probably the closest a HR has ever landed to me, one row up and about six seats over. The woman sitting where in landed for whatever reason--inebriation, lack of coordination or whatever--never really put her hands up and it drilled her square in the chest.
Murphy just a professional hitter, dude just raking with the Cubs so far. Great pick up.
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 26, 2018, 11:41:03 AM
My buddy and I went to St. Louis to watch the Brewers in a weekend series. Corey Hart smashed a line drive to the center field bleachers. It was probably the closest a HR has ever landed to me, one row up and about six seats over. The woman sitting where in landed for whatever reason--inebriation, lack of coordination or whatever--never really put her hands up and it drilled her square in the chest.
Hopefully her jumblies protected her.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 25, 2018, 10:47:39 AM
I have? You've read my texts and seen my conversations with people? That's not creepy at all.
Quoting you regarding Murphy:
And my apologies. I didn't keep my text messages and/or record my personal conversations from October of 2015. I cannot provide hard evidence. Therefor you are right, Cubs fans were not claiming Daniel Murphy was on steroids when he was mashing homeruns every single game at Wrigley Field. Not obvious enough for you to make that connection, huh?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on August 26, 2018, 05:30:35 PM
Quoting you regarding Murphy:
And my apologies. I didn't keep my text messages and/or record my personal conversations from October of 2015. I cannot provide hard evidence. Therefor you are right, Cubs fans were not claiming Daniel Murphy was on steroids when he was mashing homeruns every single game at Wrigley Field.
Not obvious enough for you to make that connection, huh?
Nope, it was. You want concrete, hard evidence of the Cubs fans I know claiming Murphy was using PEDs in October of 2015. I'm not exactly sure how you keep hard evidence of sports discussions you had 3 years ago, but kind of (or very) weird if you actually do.
Couple questions for you bud. 1) Sammy Sosa DID use PEDs? 2) Cubs fans WEREN'T accusing Daniel Murphy of using PEDs 3 years ago?
Good solid start for Kopech. Besides some control problems with hit batters he's gaining confidence and has pulled himself out of some jams.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 26, 2018, 05:36:44 PM
Couple questions for you bud. 1) Sammy Sosa DID use PEDs? 2) Cubs fans WEREN'T accusing Daniel Murphy of using PEDs 3 years ago?
Pretty sure these are just statements with question marks at the end.
I agree with statement 1 and 2.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 26, 2018, 08:20:20 PM
Pretty sure these are just statements with question marks at the end.
I agree with statement 1 and 2.
Thanks for answering the questions for VBMG as he would've deflected. I assume his answers would be the same. I guess PTM must've just decided Murphy was juicing a couple years after he was mashing at Wrigley in the Playoffs, and that PTM is the only Cubs fan who thinks so:
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on October 06, 2017, 08:52:12 PM
Altuve will have 10x better career than Murphy, more factual statement.
Also, juice.
As far as Sosa juicing, how dare you? So sick that fans will take the focus off of the hard work that a player put in to get to the level he did and make false claims that deflect from that hard work. The guy never failed a pee test, he didn't juice man.
Let me guess, VBMG wants hard evidence from Cubs fans that they used this argument for Arrieta not juicing or it wasn't said.
Haha I'm impressed you found one.
Also, that's dated 10 months ago. Not the three years you stated. ;)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 27, 2018, 08:37:06 AM
Haha I'm impressed you found one.
Also, that's dated 10 months ago. Not the three years you stated. ;)
Which is why I said:
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 26, 2018, 08:41:30 PM
I guess PTM must've just decided Murphy was juicing a couple years after he was mashing at Wrigley in the Playoffs, and that PTM is the only Cubs fan who thinks so:
https://theathletic.com/492092/2018/08/27/why-cole-hamels-cubs-turnaround-is-more-than-just-a-change-of-scenery/
No subscription for me. But I'm assuming this article confirms ww's assertion that Cub's pitching staff uses PEDs
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 27, 2018, 03:33:39 PM
https://theathletic.com/492092/2018/08/27/why-cole-hamels-cubs-turnaround-is-more-than-just-a-change-of-scenery/
No subscription for me. But I'm assuming this article confirms ww's assertion that Cub's pitching staff uses PEDs
That's never been the assertion.
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 27, 2018, 03:33:39 PM
https://theathletic.com/492092/2018/08/27/why-cole-hamels-cubs-turnaround-is-more-than-just-a-change-of-scenery/
No subscription for me. But I'm assuming this article confirms ww's assertion that Cub's pitching staff uses PEDs
"A lot of the stuff that we noticed was that I wasn't really engaging — my bottom half and top half weren't syncing together. Just the drive that I was using, I was striding out too far and I was striding too open. By the time my top half needed to be utilized, the bottom half was already done. So it wasn't working together."
Hamels said to try and "re-engage the sequencing" of his mechanics, he shortened his stride and also started a more crossfire delivery. That helped get his velocity back, but there were still issues with commanding his pitches and getting the results he wanted.
"In doing that, that allowed my top half to really kind of be more in sync with the way that my hips and core were starting to fire," Hamels said. "And then I was starting to do that, but I was starting to crossfire. So when I was crossfiring, I was starting to become more side to side. So my fastball, yeah, the velo finally started to go up, but now the fastball was being pulled."
Early in the season, Hamels noticed his velocity was down. In April, he was averaging 91.6 mph on his four-seamer, lower than any month since 2011. Despite being 34, Hamels had no doubt his arm still had more in it. His body felt as good as ever and he was in top shape.
By May, Hamels was averaging 92.8 mph on his fastball. In July, he was sitting an easy 93. But still, the results weren't there. Hamels' four-seamer was getting crushed and in July, the height of his mechanical issues, opponents hit .579 off his four-seamer with a .947 slugging percentage.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 27, 2018, 04:48:53 PM
"A lot of the stuff that we noticed was that I wasn't really engaging — my bottom half and top half weren't syncing together. Just the drive that I was using, I was striding out too far and I was striding too open. By the time my top half needed to be utilized, the bottom half was already done. So it wasn't working together."
Hamels said to try and "re-engage the sequencing" of his mechanics, he shortened his stride and also started a more crossfire delivery. That helped get his velocity back, but there were still issues with commanding his pitches and getting the results he wanted.
"In doing that, that allowed my top half to really kind of be more in sync with the way that my hips and core were starting to fire," Hamels said. "And then I was starting to do that, but I was starting to crossfire. So when I was crossfiring, I was starting to become more side to side. So my fastball, yeah, the velo finally started to go up, but now the fastball was being pulled."
Really? No way a guy that old can just increase velocity through mechanics. Guess the substance assistance went beyond Bosio
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 27, 2018, 05:59:37 PM
Really? No way a guy that old can just increase velocity through mechanics. Guess the substance assistance went beyond Bosio
Wait. So you're going to continue to make the claim that Bosio was to thank for Arrieta and use Hamels as an example to prove it?
Hmm. What's wrong with this logic?
I love Cubs fans.
At least you were smart enough to ignore my last post in here though.
Glad you're excited about Cole's 5 starts. Good sample size to make conclusions about a different pitcher...
A 28 year career minor leaguer becoming the best pitcher in baseball and a 4 time All Star who has a career sub 3.40 ERA.
Great comp!
Yall do know it takes more then a month for peds to improve performance
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 27, 2018, 06:03:18 PM
Wait. So you're going to continue to make the claim that Bosio was to thank for Arrieta and use Hamels as an example to prove it?
Hmm. What's wrong with this logic?
I love Cubs fans.
At least you were smart enough to ignore my last post in here though.
Glad you're excited about Cole's 5 starts. Good sample size to make conclusions about a different pitcher...
A 28 year career minor leaguer becoming the best pitcher in baseball and a 4 time All Star who has a career sub 3.40 ERA.
Great comp!
What about a comp with Kevin Gausman? Another highly rated prospect in the Orioles system who sucks at the MLB level. He gets traded to Atlanta and already looks like a world beater. In 5 starts, he has a WHIP under 1.00 and an ERA below 2.00.
Quote from: Jockey on August 27, 2018, 07:49:35 PM
What about a comp with Kevin Gausman? Another highly rated prospect in the Orioles system who sucks at the MLB level. He gets traded to Atlanta and already looks like a world beater. In 5 starts, he has a WHIP under 1.00 and an ERA below 2.00.
There seems to be a lot of evidence that the O's have no idea what to do with pitching. Young pitching, veteran pitching, doesn't matter.
Quote from: Jockey on August 27, 2018, 07:49:35 PM
What about a comp with Kevin Gausman? Another highly rated prospect in the Orioles system who sucks at the MLB level. He gets traded to Atlanta and already looks like a world beater. In 5 starts, he has a WHIP under 1.00 and an ERA below 2.00.
Stone cold called Gaus being excellent for the Tribe. Mostly because he's a second half pitcher, but leaving that dumpster fire helps.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 27, 2018, 06:03:18 PM
Wait. So you're going to continue to make the claim that Bosio was to thank for Arrieta and use Hamels as an example to prove it?
Hmm. What's wrong with this logic?
I love Cubs fans.
At least you were smart enough to ignore my last post in here though.
Glad you're excited about Cole's 5 starts. Good sample size to make conclusions about a different pitcher...
A 28 year career minor leaguer becoming the best pitcher in baseball and a 4 time All Star who has a career sub 3.40 ERA.
Great comp!
Just riling you up.
Quote from: ZaLiN on August 26, 2018, 07:12:37 PM
Good solid start for Kopech. Besides some control problems with hit batters he's gaining confidence and has pulled himself out of some jams.
Rodon-Kopech-Cease-Lopez-Hansen/Dunning/Giolito.
No sure things, of course, but that's potentially one heck of a rotation.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 27, 2018, 09:30:11 PM
Rodon-Kopech-Cease-Lopez-Hansen/Dunning/Giolito.
No sure things, of course, but that's potentially one heck of a rotation.
And in 2019 or 2020 I expect the Sox to go after a top of the rotation veteran in free agency to lead all of that young talent.
I'm happy to have this Rodon, he's been a dude this second half (5-0, 1.84 ERA, 0.93 WHIP). I was cautious about him due to his injuries and thought he had underachieved a bit, but he's been arguably one of the top pitchers in the AL for half the year.
Sox are 19-17 since the break, they aren't going to be bad enough for the third pick.
Once Eloy is up third week of April next year, they'll be really interesting.
It was pretty much already known, but the Cubs have taken their first steps in launching their own TV network. They have hired the former president of MSG Network to lead the new channel.
https://670thescore.radio.com/cubs-to-start-own-television-venture-late-2019 (https://670thescore.radio.com/cubs-to-start-own-television-venture-late-2019)
I'm hoping for something similar to the WWE Network which has a live 24/7 channel then a huge on demand library, either of which can be streamed to almost all devices. All for a monthly fee of $9.99.
Also, WWE Network was built by MLB Advanced Media.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 28, 2018, 08:33:41 AM
It was pretty much already known, but the Cubs have taken their first steps in launching their own TV network. They have hired the former president of MSG Network to lead the new channel.
https://670thescore.radio.com/cubs-to-start-own-television-venture-late-2019 (https://670thescore.radio.com/cubs-to-start-own-television-venture-late-2019)
I'm hoping for something similar to the WWE Network which has a live 24/7 channel then a huge on demand library, either of which can be streamed to almost all devices. All for a monthly fee of $9.99.
Also, WWE Network was built by MLB Advanced Media.
I've been interested in watching this develop over the last few years. In Chicago, the Cubs have always been in a unique situation with respect to the other teams in town. The Bears are the Bears, and the NFL TV rights is obviously far different from the other sports. The Bulls/Sox/Hawks (as long as their owned by the Reinsdorf/Wirtz families) will always be tied at the hip on an over the air cable network. 15 years ago, it made sense for the Cubs to be part of CSN, it was free money, and alot more than WGN.
Now they're in a unique position where the Cubs Network will either be boom or bust. YES works in part because they used Francesa's simulcast and they have the Nets and an agreement with the Giants for football content. I'm not sure where the Cubs get content in the winter months in Chicago. I think they'll try to make Kaplan the face of the network eventually. I'm sure they know what they're doing and have a plan in place, the Cubs business people aren't dumb, I'm curious to see what content outside of Cubs games they'll try to put out there.
Quote from: MUDish on August 28, 2018, 09:32:03 AM
I've been interested in watching this develop over the last few years. In Chicago, the Cubs have always been in a unique situation with respect to the other teams in town. The Bears are the Bears, and the NFL TV rights is obviously far different from the other sports. The Bulls/Sox/Hawks (as long as their owned by the Reinsdorf/Wirtz families) will always be tied at the hip on an over the air cable network. 15 years ago, it made sense for the Cubs to be part of CSN, it was free money, and alot more than WGN.
Now they're in a unique position where the Cubs Network will either be boom or bust. YES works in part because they used Francesa's simulcast and they have the Nets and an agreement with the Giants for football content. I'm not sure where the Cubs get content in the winter months in Chicago. I think they'll try to make Kaplan the face of the network eventually. I'm sure they know what they're doing and have a plan in place, the Cubs business people aren't dumb, I'm curious to see what content outside of Cubs games they'll try to put out there.
Why are the Hawks tied at the hip with the Sox and Bulls?
Quote from: MUDish on August 28, 2018, 09:32:03 AM
I've been interested in watching this develop over the last few years. In Chicago, the Cubs have always been in a unique situation with respect to the other teams in town. The Bears are the Bears, and the NFL TV rights is obviously far different from the other sports. The Bulls/Sox/Hawks (as long as their owned by the Reinsdorf/Wirtz families) will always be tied at the hip on an over the air cable network. 15 years ago, it made sense for the Cubs to be part of CSN, it was free money, and alot more than WGN.
Now they're in a unique position where the Cubs Network will either be boom or bust. YES works in part because they used Francesa's simulcast and they have the Nets and an agreement with the Giants for football content. I'm not sure where the Cubs get content in the winter months in Chicago. I think they'll try to make Kaplan the face of the network eventually. I'm sure they know what they're doing and have a plan in place, the Cubs business people aren't dumb, I'm curious to see what content outside of Cubs games they'll try to put out there.
I was surprised the Cubs didn't get the rights to Hawks games for the winter months especially with the overlap between organizations. I guess it's still possible they can. Everything sounds very preliminary still.
Quote from: #bansultan on August 28, 2018, 09:52:51 AM
Why are the Hawks tied at the hip with the Sox and Bulls?
Both the business and personal relationship that both families have. 50/50 co-owners of United Center, partners in Chicago Stadium Corporation. Behind the scenes the Sox/Bulls/Hawks have already been talking about options of sticking with NBC (most likely) or forming their own network.
Crane Kenney has already commented as well that the Cubs will have to go solo without help from the Hawks/Sox/Bulls.
Quote from: MUDish on August 28, 2018, 10:29:29 AM
Both the business and personal relationship that both families have. 50/50 co-owners of United Center, partners in Chicago Stadium Corporation. Behind the scenes the Sox/Bulls/Hawks have already been talking about options of sticking with NBC (most likely) or forming their own network.
Crane Kenney has already commented as well that the Cubs will have to go solo without help from the Hawks/Sox/Bulls.
OK gotcha. Didn't realize the extent of their personal and business connections.
The Cubs could end up turning this into a LA Dodgers type situation if they're not careful.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 28, 2018, 08:33:41 AM
It was pretty much already known, but the Cubs have taken their first steps in launching their own TV network. They have hired the former president of MSG Network to lead the new channel.
https://670thescore.radio.com/cubs-to-start-own-television-venture-late-2019 (https://670thescore.radio.com/cubs-to-start-own-television-venture-late-2019)
I'm hoping for something similar to the WWE Network which has a live 24/7 channel then a huge on demand library, either of which can be streamed to almost all devices. All for a monthly fee of $9.99.
Also, WWE Network was built by MLB Advanced Media.
I can't imagine paying $10 for a Cubs channel. To me, the value of a single team is not anywhere comparable to the value of netflix
Quote from: #bansultan on August 28, 2018, 10:50:52 AM
OK gotcha. Didn't realize the extent of their personal and business connections.
The Cubs could end up turning this into a LA Dodgers type situation if they're not careful.
The Witrz's and Reinsdorf's have had (from what it appears) a great business partnership for such a long time, it would be very surprising if the Hawks split from them. I "think" the Wirtz family still has a small percentage ownership in the Bulls, I could be wrong though. I do recall Rocky had sought out Jerry's advice on owning a team, especially early on after Bill Wirtz died.
I did forget that the Ricketts were looking to buy that USL expansion team, which would add content to a Cubs Network.
Quote from: MUDish on August 28, 2018, 10:29:29 AM
Both the business and personal relationship that both families have. 50/50 co-owners of United Center, partners in Chicago Stadium Corporation. Behind the scenes the Sox/Bulls/Hawks have already been talking about options of sticking with NBC (most likely) or forming their own network.
Crane Kenney has already commented as well that the Cubs will have to go solo without help from the Hawks/Sox/Bulls.
I didn't realize that it was that deep either. Good stuff Dish!
Wasn't there talk awhile back of the Cubs purchasing WGN America for their network seeing as it is currently for sale? They'd already have network in millions of homes across the country.
Any idea if this is realistic?
Quote from: MUDish on August 28, 2018, 11:08:08 AM
I did forget that the Ricketts were looking to buy that USL expansion team, which would add content to a Cubs Network.
Does that make sense, though, since US soccer season is in the summer?
After last night, 32 games left for the Cubs. If they go 16-16, Cards have to go 20-11 to catch them and the Brewers 20-10.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on August 28, 2018, 12:02:47 PM
Does that make sense, though, since US soccer season is in the summer?
Yeah, no argument here. I'd guess (pure guess) that Ricketts buying into the USL, the league would give the Chicago team preferred game day/times that don't conflict with Cubs games. I don't know how many people would tune in, but I could see that playing out.
Quote from: MUDish on August 28, 2018, 12:15:44 PM
Yeah, no argument here. I'd guess (pure guess) that Ricketts buying into the USL, the league would give the Chicago team preferred game day/times that don't conflict with Cubs games. I don't know how many people would tune in, but I could see that playing out.
Minor leagues games, winter league, spring training, draft coverage, winter meetings, Cubs Convention, Wrigley concerts. And a lot of infomercials.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 28, 2018, 03:08:40 PM
Minor leagues games, winter league, spring training, draft coverage, winter meetings, Cubs Convention, Wrigley concerts. And a lot of infomercials.
For sure, I think the Cubs will do a great job with the Cubs content. They have really smart guys/gals there, and I think they'll give Cubs fans cool behind the scene type access/content on the platform. They'll also be sure to try to break news there as well.
I've heard something similar about the concerts too, that a new Cubs network would possibly provide concerts from Wrigley on the network.
I said in an earlier post that I'd imagine Kaplan would be the face of the network. I have no idea when his ESPN contract is up, but I would wonder if he'd jump to 670 and then try to do a simulcast of his radio show on Cubs Net. Personally, I don't mind Kap, I'm not a Cubs fan though, but when I am in the car, I don't seek him out.
I'd be curious though, and would argue, the Cubs reach on a national scale is as great or greater than the Yankees and YES Network. With that being said, I wonder if the Cubs would go after a big national name to be the face of the network. As an example, Costas is negotiating an early release from his NBC contract. If Cubs Net gave Costas a baseball interview show (or whatever) and found ways to utilize him, I could potentially see them doing that.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 28, 2018, 03:08:40 PM
Minor leagues games, winter league, spring training, draft coverage, winter meetings, Cubs Convention, Wrigley concerts. And a lot of infomercials.
The Dodgers network seemed like it was quite a disaster for Dodger fans.
Javier Baez is the most popular player at the Little League World Series
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/javier-baez-is-the-most-popular-player-at-the-little-league-world-series/c-291423462
(http://www.mlb.com/assets/images/9/9/8/291604998/raw.png)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 29, 2018, 08:23:47 AM
Javier Baez is the most popular player at the Little League World Series
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/javier-baez-is-the-most-popular-player-at-the-little-league-world-series/c-291423462
(http://www.mlb.com/assets/images/9/9/8/291604998/raw.png)
Can we rename this thread the Javy Baez propaganda thread? I mean, wow. Little leaguers like him. That is interesting. Sort of, somehow, I guess.
Hahaha excellent. Wanted to see what kind of response I could get from that. Better than expected.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 29, 2018, 08:48:03 AM
Can we rename this thread the Javy Baez propaganda thread? I mean, wow. Little leaguers like him. That is interesting. Sort of, somehow, I guess.
Guess I should have posted it in the "Who Are Our Children's Heroes" thread. ;D
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 29, 2018, 08:49:34 AM
Hahaha excellent. Wanted to see what kind of response I could get from that. Better than expected.
Well done minister of propaganda.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 29, 2018, 08:49:34 AM
Hahaha excellent. Wanted to see what kind of response I could get from that. Better than expected.
Good stuff. You slid that one in nicely. Really tagged some Scoopers!
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 29, 2018, 08:48:03 AM
Can we rename this thread the Javy Baez propaganda thread? I mean, wow. Little leaguers like him. That is interesting. Sort of, somehow, I guess.
The Little Leaguers obviously didn't see Adam Engle's catches last month.
If you aren't familiar with him, A's 3B Matt Chapman is a superstar in the making.... If he wasn't on the A's he would be already.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 29, 2018, 11:41:04 AM
If you aren't familiar with him, A's 3B Matt Chapman is a superstar in the making.... If he wasn't on the A's he would be already.
Amazing defense. Possibly the best in the game.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 29, 2018, 12:25:03 PM
Amazing defense. Possibly the best in the game.
How is ability to tag?
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 29, 2018, 12:57:34 PM
How is ability to tag?
I was gonna say he is the best tagger on the planet, but I didn't want to get beat up by Baez, the best boxer in all of baseball!
Yelich is unreal.
And I've never seen a worse call than what the umps made tonight.
Brewers pitching is an absolute disaster.
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on August 29, 2018, 10:18:21 PM
Brewers pitching is an absolute disaster.
It is weird. Stearns by and large has done a great job, but everyone in the baseball world knew they needed a SP in the offseason. They didn't get one. Everyone knew they needed a SP at the deadline. They didn't get one. They are paying the price now. The starters, that were largely overpreforming, are crashing back to Earth and the overworked bullpen is collapsing more by the day. This was an obvious, glaring need that the Brewers chose not to address and it will very likely cost them the chance at the division and probably even the playoffs.
Quote from: mannionsworld on August 29, 2018, 09:31:19 PM
Yelich is unreal.
And I've never seen a worse call than what the umps made tonight.
After reading their description of the call afterwards, it makes some sense. For instance, if a player squares to bunt w/ 2 strikes, pulls the bat back and hits a ball foul, he's not out.
I'm not saying it was the right call, but it was understandable.
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 29, 2018, 11:51:00 PM
It is weird. Stearns by and large has done a great job, but everyone in the baseball world knew they needed a SP in the offseason. They didn't get one. Everyone knew they needed a SP at the deadline. They didn't get one. They are paying the price now. The starters, that were largely overpreforming, are crashing back to Earth and the overworked bullpen is collapsing more by the day. This was an obvious, glaring need that the Brewers chose not to address and it will very likely cost them the chance at the division and probably even the playoffs.
Not toot my own horn, but here are Gausman's stats since he was traded to Atl for next to nothing at the deadline:
DATE OPP IP H ER BB K DEC
8/26 @Mia 5.0 1 0 1 5 W
8/21 @Pit 8.0 4 0 2 5 W
8/15 Mia 6.0 4 2 2 2 W
8/10 Mil 8.0 6 1 0 8 W
8/4 @NYM 5.0 6 3 2 2 L
Quote from: buckchuckler on August 29, 2018, 11:51:00 PM
It is weird. Stearns by and large has done a great job, but everyone in the baseball world knew they needed a SP in the offseason. They didn't get one. Everyone knew they needed a SP at the deadline. They didn't get one. They are paying the price now. The starters, that were largely overpreforming, are crashing back to Earth and the overworked bullpen is collapsing more by the day. This was an obvious, glaring need that the Brewers chose not to address and it will very likely cost them the chance at the division and probably even the playoffs.
I'm not saying you are wrong. This Brewers team absolutely needs another starter.
But, I think Stearns' refusal to pony up for a starter is understandable. Starting pitchers can help you one or two days a week, but hitters can help you everyday, even if they don't start. Almost every move DS has made since coming to Milwaukee has been to bring in hitters and relief pitchers, which represents a change in philosophy based on sabermetrics. The value of starters is decreasing daily with the shorter outings and the introduction of concepts like the "opener" in Tampa (I think they have one of the best ERAs in baseball since they started the opener concept). I'm not surprised that Stearns was willing to deal away prospects for two hitters he thought could shore up the offense, but wasn't willing to trade a prospect for just 10-12 starts.
Then, you have to look at the players that were available. There's only two starting pitchers that were available last season that have panned out in Chacin and Arietta. Jhoulys and Jake have VERY similar lines on the season, but Jake is costing the Phillies FIVE TIMES as much as Jhoulys over the course of their contracts ($75M to $15M). Older, expensive players just aren't worth it any more. At the trade deadline the best pitchers was Hamels, but he wasn't waving his no-trade clause to come here. Guys like Gausman have over-performed since the deadline, but they weren't world beaters before. Harvey would have been an ok addition, but Stearns wasn't going to overpay for a redemption project with a 4+ ERA. Who else is there to go get?
Lastly, the Brewers rotation is about to be bolstered by the addition of Zach Davies. At the trade deadline, DS thought we might still get Nelson back too, though it looks like that ship has sailed. Why trade for a pitcher when you can "acquire" one coming back from injury.
That said, a strong play for a guy like Patrick Corbin or Nathan Eovaldi in the offseason could be huge for this team.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on August 30, 2018, 04:16:20 PM
I'm not saying you are wrong. This Brewers team absolutely needs another starter.
But, I think Stearns' refusal to pony up for a starter is understandable. Starting pitchers can help you one or two days a week, but hitters can help you everyday, even if they don't start. Almost every move DS has made since coming to Milwaukee has been to bring in hitters and relief pitchers, which represents a change in philosophy based on sabermetrics. The value of starters is decreasing daily with the shorter outings and the introduction of concepts like the "opener" in Tampa (I think they have one of the best ERAs in baseball since they started the opener concept). I'm not surprised that Stearns was willing to deal away prospects for two hitters he thought could shore up the offense, but wasn't willing to trade a prospect for just 10-12 starts.
Then, you have to look at the players that were available. There's only two starting pitchers that were available last season that have panned out in Chacin and Arietta. Jhoulys and Jake have VERY similar lines on the season, but Jake is costing the Phillies FIVE TIMES as much as Jhoulys over the course of their contracts ($75M to $15M). Older, expensive players just aren't worth it any more. At the trade deadline the best pitchers was Hamels, but he wasn't waving his no-trade clause to come here. Guys like Gausman have over-performed since the deadline, but they weren't world beaters before. Harvey would have been an ok addition, but Stearns wasn't going to overpay for a redemption project with a 4+ ERA. Who else is there to go get?
Lastly, the Brewers rotation is about to be bolstered by the addition of Zach Davies. At the trade deadline, DS thought we might still get Nelson back too, though it looks like that ship has sailed. Why trade for a pitcher when you can "acquire" one coming back from injury.
That said, a strong play for a guy like Patrick Corbin or Nathan Eovaldi in the offseason could be huge for this team.
It's tough too since free agents can be hit or miss. You can argue that Chacin was the best pitcher signing this offseason. Even Miley has had some nice stretches. I think all the trade candidates at the deadline were iffy as well. What it took to get Archer was pretty steep.
I don't know what the right answer is for the Brewers pitching, but I don't know if there was a move this offseason/deadline that makes a big difference. Granted, sometimes you catch lightning and get a guy that's hot like Hamels.
Hamels and Happ (Yanks got him for basically nothing) have been pretty great. Lynn has been ok (Yanks got him for nothing). Nathan Eovaldi has been solid, again acquired for nothing. Any of those guys could have been Brewers. An ace type would have been great for the Brewers, but they didn't need that. They just needed someone to give them good innings and protect the strength of the pitching staff, the bullpen.
Oh, and a guy they could have had for nothing, James Shields, has a game log that looks like this this month:
6IP 5 H 2 ER 6K
7IP 7H 2 ER 4K
7IP 6H 3ER 5K
6.2 10H 7ER 5K (took one for the team to save a gassed pen)
5.2 4H 2 ER 3 K
While that isn't Clayton Kershaw stuff, it is keep your team in the game and give you a pretty good chance to win stuff, while also protecting a bullpen stuff. I have a hard time believing they couldn't have gotten Shields in the Soria trade as basically a throw in if they had wanted him.
Another solid start for Lucas Giolito last night. For a guy who looked like a lost cause early in the season, Gioito has really turned it around. His last month or so has been one of the most promising parts of the White Sox season to me. If he can regain any of the form that made him the top pitching prospect in baseball, even to become a solid middle of the rotation guy, it could be huge for the Sox.
His ERA is still, well, really ugly, and his overall stats on the year, are well, really ugly. Despite this, he has been very good recently. Over his last 10 (including starts against Houston, NYY, Boston, and TB) starts he has an ERA of 3.82, he is averaging 6.1 IP per start, and OPS against of .648, 57K/27BB (this was a major killer early in the season for him). The team is 7-3 over this stretch (Gio is 5-2). I know I was about ready to write him off early this season, but he has really looked pretty darn good recently.
The Sox season was all about growth and development, Giolito is starting to be a big factor there.
Cubs 10 game road stand is make or break for the Brewers.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 31, 2018, 12:15:08 PM
Cubs 10 game road stand is make or break for the Brewers.
Pretty much. That loss column deficit is just too much right now. Unless the Cubs lose to other teams (come on Braves!) the Brewers (and/or Cardinals...puke) can't close the gap on their own without sweeping the Cubs, which is unlikely.
That said, as a Brewer fan, I've been done thinking that the division was in reach for several weeks now. I'm more concerned with the wild card so I've been following the Phillies, Dodgers, Braves, DBacks, Rockies, and Cardinals closely too.
If we sweep Washington and the Cubs lose 2 or 3 to Atlanta this weekend, then maybe I'll allow myself hope come Monday.
Actually 11 game road trip.
So do Brewers fans cheer for or against the Cubs this weekend since they are playing the Wild Card contending Phillies?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 31, 2018, 02:38:21 PM
Actually 11 game road trip.
So do Brewers fans cheer for or against the Cubs this weekend since they are playing the Wild Card contending Phillies?
Head: For
Heart: Against
Brewers acquiring Xavier Cedeno from the Sox. Brewers sure do love Sox relievers. Swarzak, Jennings, Albers, Soria and now Cedeno.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 31, 2018, 02:46:12 PM
Head: For
Heart: Against
I don't know. I am obviously not either, but I would root to win the division and not the Wild Card, just because of how tenuous that 1 game deal can be.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 31, 2018, 02:38:21 PM
Actually 11 game road trip.
So do Brewers fans cheer for or against the Cubs this weekend since they are playing the Wild Card contending Phillies?
True. But they won the make-up game yesterday. Magic number is 25.
Brewers get Gio.
Quote from: Jockey on August 31, 2018, 06:19:57 PM
Brewers get Gio.
He is 1-4 with 7.47 ERA in six games in August. Doesn't look like anything of value was given up, but it's still not very exciting.
Granderson as well. Not a bad move for little cost. Another option for the OF platoon since Thames hasn't been able to make contact for the past month.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on August 31, 2018, 02:38:21 PM
Actually 11 game road trip.
So do Brewers fans cheer for or against the Cubs this weekend since they are playing the Wild Card contending Phillies?
They're ahead of Phillies and behind Cubs coming into this weekend. Of course the Phillies. Too early to write off division for the Crew, lots can and does happen in September.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on August 31, 2018, 06:45:15 PM
He is 1-4 with 7.47 ERA in six games in August. Doesn't look like anything of value was given up, but it's still not very exciting.
Cannot hurt. Other than Chacin, the Brewers SP are only 2 games over .500 for the season.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 01, 2018, 10:08:11 AM
Cannot hurt. Other than Chacin, the Brewers SP are only 2 games over .500 for the season.
SP wins no matta.
i hope hader is hurt or counsel should be fired tonight.
he managed the bullpen dang near perfectly the first half of the season. he has completely lost his mind the second half of the season. i have never seen an inning mismanaged as badly as this.
soria gets the first two guys. gives up a double and then a single to cut the lead to one. harper coming up. hader hasnt pitched in 2 nights. leaves soria in. walks harper and 3 of the 4 balls are 3 feet out of the zone. up to 30 pitches after having pitched 3 of the last 4 nights. counsel keeps him out there, first 3 pitches are 3 feet out of the zone. hes stepping off and whiping sweat from his face. walk. soto comes to the plate, he brings in jennings whos got about 1 guy out the second half of this season, has pitched each of the last 3 nights including spraining his ankle 2 nichrs ago, and of course gives up a 2 run single. counsel goes and gets lyles who has pitched each of the last 2 nights and he gives up a wild pitch run.
did craig forget he had september callups and 10 pitchers in his bullpen tonight? thats as bad as it gets and completely unacceptable.
I'm sure Hader will be fresh at home in October. Counsell baffles me. Jennings has been terrible yet he pitches almost every night.
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 01, 2018, 11:39:52 PM
i hope hader is hurt or counsel should be fired tonight.
he managed the bullpen dang near perfectly the first half of the season. he has completely lost his mind the second half of the season. i have never seen an inning mismanaged as badly as this.
soria gets the first two guys. gives up a double and then a single to cut the lead to one. harper coming up. hader hasnt pitched in 2 nights. leaves soria in. walks harper and 3 of the 4 balls are 3 feet out of the zone. up to 30 pitches after having pitched 3 of the last 4 nights. counsel keeps him out there, first 3 pitches are 3 feet out of the zone. hes stepping off and whiping sweat from his face. walk. soto comes to the plate, he brings in jennings whos got about 1 guy out the second half of this season, has pitched each of the last 3 nights including spraining his ankle 2 nichrs ago, and of course gives up a 2 run single. counsel goes and gets lyles who has pitched each of the last 2 nights and he gives up a wild pitch run.
did craig forget he had september callups and 10 pitchers in his bullpen tonight? thats as bad as it gets and completely unacceptable.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/PEtL0mS2JXMBi/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 01, 2018, 11:56:48 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/PEtL0mS2JXMBi/giphy.gif)
go talk about the bears going 11-5 next year.
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 01, 2018, 11:58:53 PM
go talk about the bears going 11-5 next year.
Didn't say they were going 11-5. That would be silly to predict before this season is over and next year's schedule is out.
I tried telling you guys a month or two ago the bullpen was overworked. Giving days off between appearances really doesn't matter if they are passing innings thresholds they've never passed before.
Luckily for the Cubs, the starters have finally started going deeper into games giving the bullpen somewhat of a break. Hopefully some September call ups can take some of the load as well.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 10:20:14 AM
I tried telling you guys a month or two ago the bullpen was overworked. Giving days off between appearances really doesn't matter if they are passing innings thresholds they've never passed before.
Luckily for the Cubs, the starters have finally started going deeper into games giving the bullpen somewhat of a break. Hopefully some September call ups can take some of the load as well.
it has nothing to do with an overworked bullpen. it has everything to do with counsel mismanaging the bullpen. the bullpen is just fine...when they arent using the worst pitchers in it every night instead of the studs.
the brewers are 8-4 in their last 12, and should be 9-3, with plenty of good work out of the pen.
the only thing i can think of as an excuse beyond injury for hader is if he was up and went through a full warmup during the top of the 8th, game gets delayed for rain, maybe theyre told they might get going again in 10 minutes earlier in the delay, he gets warmed up again, rain doesnt clear and what they thought was maybe going to be a 30 minute delay turned into 2 hours and he had already gone through a full warmup twice so they sat him down.
I love when guys go on rants about the manager but can't actually spell his name correctly.
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 02, 2018, 10:25:24 AM
it has nothing to do with an overworked bullpen. it has everything to do with counsel mismanaging the bullpen. the bullpen is just fine...when they arent using the worst pitchers in it every night instead of the studs.
Why do you think he's using these guys instead of the studs? Because the studs are overworked. I'm sure he'd love to use Hader everyday but that won't be beneficial come playoff time.
I'm sure Joe Maddon would love to use Strop and Cischek every day but he runs Kintzler and DeLaRosa out there in close games to give the other guys a break.
Granted, you have to win these games to get to the playoffs.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 02, 2018, 10:35:37 AM
I love when guys go on rants about the manager but can't actually spell his name correctly.
glad you were able to get over that major hurdle and figure out who i was referring to.
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 02, 2018, 10:57:56 AM
glad you were able to get over that major hurdle and figure out who i was referring to.
Oh I knew. I just think it shows a special level of hilarity on top of your ranting.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 10:57:25 AM
Why do you think he's using these guys instead of the studs? Because the studs are overworked. I'm sure he'd love to use Hader everyday but that won't be beneficial come playoff time.
I'm sure Joe Maddon would love to use Strop and Cischek every day but he runs Kintzler and DeLaRosa out there in close games to give the other guys a break.
Granted, you have to win these games to get to the playoffs.
he doesnt have to use them every day. hader has 2 nights off since he had last pitched. its really not hard to follow, i stated as much in the original post about it.
the brewers have plenty of off days and just had roster call ups. hader hadn't pitched in the last 2 games. he was far from overworked last night
Quote from: #bansultan on September 02, 2018, 10:59:56 AM
Oh I knew. I just think it shows a special level of hilarity on top of your ranting.
thats cool.
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 02, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
he doesnt have to use them every day. hader has 2 nights off since he had last pitched. its really not hard to follow, i stated as much in the original post about it.
the brewers have plenty of off days and just had roster call ups. hader hadn't pitched in the last 2 games. he was far from overworked last night
Even with days off Hader has already thrown 20 more innings this year than last year going from 47 to 67.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 11:18:38 AM
Even with days off Hader has already thrown 20 more innings this year than last year going from 47 to 67.
HE HAD TWO DAYS OFF, WHAT DON'T YOU GET
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 11:18:38 AM
Even with days off Hader has already thrown 20 more innings this year than last year going from 47 to 67.
Additional 52 in AAA last year. He's going to throw his fewest innings as a full-season pro.
Stranger thing last night was pulling Anderson after five, a low pitch count, and one inning of trouble that he worked through. That will lead to overwork of the pen.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 11:18:38 AM
Even with days off Hader has already thrown 20 more innings this year than last year going from 47 to 67.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on September 02, 2018, 11:51:31 AM
HE HAD TWO DAYS OFF, WHAT DON'T YOU GET
wait. BOTH of you are REALLY this stupid?
yes. josh hader pitched 47 innings last year...in the major leagues...after he was called up from the minors...in june...after throwing 52 innings in the minors as a starter.
good god cubs fans are effing hilarious. theres a reason theyre called fibs.
Quote from: chapman on September 02, 2018, 01:31:03 PM
Additional 52 in AAA last year. He's going to throw his fewest innings as a full-season pro.
Stranger thing last night was pulling Anderson after five, a low pitch count, and one inning of trouble that he worked through. That will lead to overwork of the pen.
agreed. that was a questionable move, but you still win that game if you don't leave sorta in 2 batters too long and bring jennings in who has been godawful the second half of the season.
junior garra should not start another game this year.
Pretty sure hee won't. G Squared should get his starts, hey?
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 02, 2018, 02:05:04 PM
junior garra should not start another game this year.
Junior who?
But yeah I agree. He's done.
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 02, 2018, 02:05:04 PM
junior garra should not start another game this year.
Garra won't start another game as he doesn't exist.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 02, 2018, 04:07:59 PM
Garra won't start another game as he doesn't exist.
wrong.
https://m.facebook.com/juniorgarracanaa/
sad
(https://images.pristineauction.com/69/690399/main_1498679606-Sammy-Sosa-Signed-LE-Cubs-Jersey-Inscribed-66-63JSA-COA-PristineAuction.com.jpg)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 11:18:38 AM
Even with days off Hader has already thrown 20 more innings this year than last year going from 47 to 67.
He threw 52 minor league innings last year as well.
Edit: got it already. Oh well.
Quote from: WithoutBias on September 02, 2018, 02:05:04 PM
junior garra should not start another game this year.
Well, maybe if they'd use Krapz or Nottington, Garra would pitsh better.
There is a big difference between starters innings and reliever innings.
But hey everything is fine with the Brewer bullpen. I'll stop commenting.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 08:19:15 PM
There is a big difference between starters innings and reliever innings.
But hey everything is fine with the Brewer bullpen. I'll stop commenting.
Yeah, the problem is dat bum Council can't manage it
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 08:19:15 PM
There is a big difference between starters innings and reliever innings.
But hey everything is fine with the Brewer bullpen. I'll stop commenting.
Probaby, but that's not what you said or implied though.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 02, 2018, 08:19:15 PM
There is a big difference between starters innings and reliever innings.
But hey everything is fine with the Brewer bullpen. I'll stop commenting.
Doubling down on it, while shifting goalposts. I like it.
Quote from: PTM + Chartouny = Us on September 02, 2018, 08:38:19 PM
Yeah, the problem is dat bum Council can't manage it
Never far behind your boy.
It was a non-save situation but it was nice to see Knebel throwing good stuff in the 9th. Hopefully the visit down in the minors got his head straight.
Bye beisbol
Lol. Even by this ump's standards none of the last 3 pitches have been even close.
Lol at Edwards. Throw a pitch within 6 inches of the strike zone. You're yelling at the wrong thing. Find a mirror.
Edwards screaming at umpire after that performance lol. Stroke on Bruan but the rest was pathetic
Had a sinking feeling that entire 9th inning but Yeli comes through!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 03, 2018, 04:27:31 PM
Had a sinking feeling that entire 9th inning but Yeli comes through!
;D
Jeffress' agent ought to offer to pay the Brewers to let him say in Milwaukee.
As a Brewer: 1.24 WHIP, 2.26 ERA, 35 Saves, 52 Holds
As a non-Brewer: 1.68 WHIP, 4.76 ERA, 1 Save, 10 Holds
Horrible decision by Bryant. Gotta go home there.
And if he went to 2nd after stepping on 3rd Cain would have been out.
Bullpen implosion and mental mistakes. Frustrating.
Yep. Was sitting in 111 and KB had many options, the one he chose was the worst in my opinion. But, he's the pro, it's a lightning quick decision, and still almost had him. Win tomorrow.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24569763/chicago-cubs-pitcher-cole-hamels-takes-dig-milwaukee-brewers-fans
I don't get what he's saying here. Cubs fans fill Miller Park so it's not a rivalry but Phillies fans fill the Nationals stadium and that makes it rivalry.
Quote from: Skitch on September 03, 2018, 08:49:35 PM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24569763/chicago-cubs-pitcher-cole-hamels-takes-dig-milwaukee-brewers-fans
I don't get what he's saying here. Cubs fans fill Miller Park so it's not a rivalry but Phillies fans fill the Nationals stadium and that makes it rivalry.
In a nutshell he's basically saying that the Brewers just don't have that great of a fan base.
Quote from: 21Jumpstreet on September 03, 2018, 06:21:42 PM
Yep. Was sitting in 111 and KB had many options, the one he chose was the worst in my opinion. But, he's the pro, it's a lightning quick decision, and still almost had him. Win tomorrow.
As a pro, Bryant had to know to go home. It's why you have the infield in and 5 guys in the infield. Going to third shouldn't have even been in his mind.
Good win for the Crew, I'll take it.
Quote from: jonny09 on September 03, 2018, 08:53:34 PM
In a nutshell he's basically saying that the Brewers just don't have that great of a fan base.
It's a smaller fan base that doesn't mind profit taking on those tickets a few times a year.
Brewers are top 10 in per game MLB attendance. It's fine.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 03, 2018, 09:02:47 PM
It's a smaller fan base that doesn't mind profit taking on those tickets a few times a year.
Brewers are top 10 in per game MLB attendance. It's fine.
Yep.
Lions don't concern themselves with the opinions of sheep. Hamels feeling compelled to say this suggests the rivalry exists and is alive and well. Brewers have attendance well over 30k each night - the Cubs are not the reason for that.
And let's face it, a lot of Cubs fans come up to Miller Park because it is closer, more convenient and nicer than Wrigley.
Great day for the Crew.
Beat the Cubs.
Cardinals lose.
Braves lose.
Phillies lose.
D-backs lose.
Dodgers lose.
Only bad outcome was Rockies winning.
Quote from: jonny09 on September 03, 2018, 08:53:34 PM
In a nutshell he's basically saying that the Brewers just don't have that great of a fan base.
I get that that was what he meant. What I don't get is that his reason Cubs/Brewers isn't a great rivalry is the exact reason he said Phiilies/Nationals is a great rivalry.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 03, 2018, 09:22:27 PM
And let's face it, a lot of Cubs fans come up to Miller Park because it is closer, more convenient and nicer than Wrigley.
That's not why.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 03, 2018, 11:38:04 PM
That's not why.
I've heard as much from Cubs fans that those are big factors. In your eyes what's the big factor?
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 03, 2018, 11:47:35 PM
I've heard as much from Cubs fans that those are big factors. In your eyes what's the big factor?
7 dollars versus 65 dollars.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 04, 2018, 07:27:31 AM
7 dollars versus 65 dollars.
I would agree with that. I took that as part of the more convenient but that makes sense.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 03, 2018, 09:22:27 PM
And let's face it, a lot of Cubs fans come up to Miller Park because it is closer, more convenient and nicer than Wrigley.
Except they do the same thing in Cincy, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Miami, San Diego, etc.
Nice to see Davies return with a solid outing. Brewers couldn't afford for him to need 2-3 starts to get back into it. If he can re-acquire his 2017 form, it'll go a long way in the postseason push, if for no other reason than him pushing Guerra out of the rotation.
In the past week the Cubs beat Syndergaard, deGrom, and Nola and lost to Vargas, Pivetta, and Davies.
Baseball happened.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 09:34:10 AM
Except they do the same thing in Cincy, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Miami, San Diego, etc.
I'd like to add that it's not necessarily because Cubs fans are "better fans" (I won't even wade into
that debate), but because the Cubs market and diaspora are much larger than the fanbases of those teams. There are plenty of Chicagoans who now live in and around those other cities, especially in the South, where there just aren't as many ex-Milwaukeeans in Pittsburgh or San Diego. As many have pointed out before, the national reach of WGN and the current "I just cheer for whoever is good" sports culture we have right now in the US has something to do with the breadth of the Cubs fanbase. The Cubs fan exodus to Miller Park in particular is exacerbated by proximity, price, family friendly atmosphere, and tailgating.
That said, from what I hear nationally, the next worst away-team takeover is apparently Blue Jays fans in Seattle. Makes me wonder if a west coast Canadian expansion team is a better bet than a Montreal redux.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 09:34:10 AM
Except they do the same thing in Cincy, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Miami, San Diego, etc.
Of course. Chicago is the third largest city in the country and has a lot of transplants. Plus, the Cubs along with the Dodgers, Cardinals, Yankees, and Red Sox have always had one of the most national followings. The bandwagon only got bigger after the World Series win. Naturally, Cubs fans who don't live in Chicago will flood those games the few times that they are in town. Most of those fans don't have ability to go to games at Wrigley. 99% of these fans are not "travelling well", they aren't flying from Chicago to San Diego on the regular to see the Cubs play. The Cubs have more fans everywhere than most teams. The same phenomenon happens with the Yanks, Bo Sox, Dodgers, and Cardinals.
What Sultan and Cheebs are correctly pointing out is that most of the Cubs fans who flood Miller park also have the ability to see games at Wrigley because they live within driving distance. Many don't and only attend games at Miller because it is closer, more convenient (which includes cheaper), and nicer than Wrigley.
No doubt WGN is responsible for the Cubs fanbase. Funny that once they dropped the Cubs, they got good.
I assume Seattle would try to block any attempts to have a team in Vancouver similar to the Orioles trying to block the Nationals.
I think Montreal still has a fanbase to support baseball. They just got driven away by the strike and then taking it up the ass from the shady Selig/Loria/Henry moves.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 09:59:16 AM
In the past week the Cubs beat Syndergaard, deGrom, and Nola and lost to Vargas, Pivetta, and Davies.
Baseball happened.
A little nit-picky here, and probably not your point. But they didn't beat either Syndergaard or deGrom. They beat the Mets bullpen in both those games. Though they did hit Syndergaard around quite a bit.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 03, 2018, 09:22:27 PM
And let's face it, a lot of Cubs fans come up to Miller Park because it is closer, more convenient and nicer than Wrigley.
I'm not a Cub fan, but for the vast majority of Cub fans Miller Park is farther away (and it's not really close) and less convenient. And (though I think they're crazy) Cub fans I know think Wrigley is the "nicest" place that baseball is played.
Tickets to Brewers games are cheaper and easier to come by - that's the big draw.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 04, 2018, 12:37:53 PM
I'm not a Cub fan, but for the vast majority of Cub fans Miller Park is farther away (and it's not really close) and less convenient. And (though I think they're crazy) Cub fans I know think Wrigley is the "nicest" place that baseball is played.
Tickets to Brewers games are cheaper and easier to come by - that's the big draw.
Both your statement and Sultan's statement are correct.
When Kris Bryant hit his first career homerun at Miller Park in 2015, I was able to get two third row tickets behind the Cubs on-deck circle three days before the game on brewers.com for $90 a piece.
No way I could do that at Wrigley.
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11164661_10100934451024654_9204136407401155061_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4d03eabda2beae03a51486771e5d77b2&oe=5C24616B)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 01:58:25 PM
When Kris Bryant hit his first career homerun at Miller Park in 2015, I was able to get two third row tickets behind the Cubs on-deck circle three days before the game on brewers.com for $90 a piece.
No way I could do that at Wrigley.
I'm sure you could have paid $90 for a seat at Wrigley to watch Kris Bryant's first career home run.
Quote from: The Deane Team on September 04, 2018, 02:14:19 PM
I'm sure you could have paid $90 for a seat at Wrigley to watch Kris Bryant's first career home run.
Three days before the game on cubs.com for the third row behind on the deck circle? Not a damn chance.
Quote from: The Deane Team on September 04, 2018, 02:14:19 PM
I'm sure you could have paid $90 for a seat at Wrigley to watch Kris Bryant's first career home run.
But 3rd row behind batters box?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 02:19:54 PM
Three days before the game on cubs.com for the third row behind on the deck circle? Not a damn chance.
Since it happened at Miller Park, I'm sure Wrigley was quite empty.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 02:19:54 PM
Three days before the game on cubs.com for the third row behind on the deck circle? Not a damn chance.
Think he was just trying to be clever, since KB first HR came on the road I would imagine that just about every seat at Wrigley was open.
Edit: nm
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 01:58:25 PM
When Kris Bryant hit his first career homerun at Miller Park in 2015, I was able to get two third row tickets behind the Cubs on-deck circle three days before the game on brewers.com for $90 a piece.
No way I could do that at Wrigley.
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11164661_10100934451024654_9204136407401155061_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4d03eabda2beae03a51486771e5d77b2&oe=5C24616B)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 02:19:54 PM
Three days before the game on cubs.com for the third row behind on the deck circle? Not a damn chance.
Yep. It was more convenient for you to get great tickets at Miller than at Wrigley. Glad we are all in agreement.
To be fair, when I said "convenient," I did not mean ticket price. I was mostly talking about "ease getting to the stadium." And to Lenny's point, yeah Wrigley Field is closer to most of its fanbase. (That's why I said "a lot" of its fanbase. There are a fair number of Cub fans north of the state line.) But anyway, it's not as easy to get to with traffic, etc.
And I don't begrudge Cub fans from coming to Miller Park and I don't begrudge Brewer fans for selling their tickets.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 04, 2018, 12:37:53 PM
I'm not a Cub fan, but for the vast majority of Cub fans Miller Park is farther away (and it's not really close) and less convenient. And (though I think they're crazy) Cub fans I know think Wrigley is the "nicest" place that baseball is played.
Tickets to Brewers games are cheaper and easier to come by - that's the big draw.
For anyone in the West, Northwest or North Shore suburbs (except Evanston or Wilmette), getting to and in/out of Miller Park is easier than getting to Wrigley or about the same.
Also, if you walk through the MP parking lot, many tailgate parties include both Cubs and Brewers fans/friends. You see Chicago-Milwaukee friends at Summerfest. The Bears-Packers fan overlap among friends and family is very prevalent. The Cubs and Brewers even sponsor a bike ride between Wrigley and MP.
You cats are discounting the Gurnosha Effect. The Brewers have even actively targeted Cubs fans for season tickets in the past, just like the Bucks are targeting Bulls fans. That was the stupid thing about the Cub restrictions the Brewers tried to employ--Cubs fans have family and friends in SE Wisconsin. Lame
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 04, 2018, 10:01:39 AM
Of course. Chicago is the third largest city in the country and has a lot of transplants. Plus, the Cubs along with the Dodgers, Cardinals, Yankees, and Red Sox have always had one of the most national followings. The bandwagon only got bigger after the World Series win. Naturally, Cubs fans who don't live in Chicago will flood those games the few times that they are in town. Most of those fans don't have ability to go to games at Wrigley. 99% of these fans are not "travelling well", they aren't flying from Chicago to San Diego on the regular to see the Cubs play. The Cubs have more fans everywhere than most teams. The same phenomenon happens with the Yanks, Bo Sox, Dodgers, and Cardinals.
What Sultan and Cheebs are correctly pointing out is that most of the Cubs fans who flood Miller park also have the ability to see games at Wrigley because they live within driving distance. Many don't and only attend games at Miller because it is closer, more convenient (which includes cheaper), and nicer than Wrigley.
My father and I see the cubs play a road series every year, somewhere different. Usually the Sunday night flight back to Chicago is 70% cubs fans doing the same thing as us.
The stadium is pretty empty tonight.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 04, 2018, 07:38:43 PM
The stadium is pretty empty tonight.
First day of school for 95% of the kids in Wisconsin.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 04, 2018, 08:19:03 PM
First day of school for 95% of the kids in Wisconsin.
After Labor Day, Wisconsin residents move on to football. A large fan base for the Brewers is group sales from the little towns and bars who send bus loads of fans to the games. This dries up after LD.
Haha well Joe pretty much conceded this game with Kintzler, DeLaRosa, and Maples.
EDIT: And Duensing.
Nice inning by Knebel, his second solid one since returning. Getting him squared away would really strengthen the pen for the Crew.
Yelich reminds me of Billy Williams.
Quote from: Jockey on September 04, 2018, 10:01:18 PM
Yelich reminds me of Billy Williams.
Sure hope Yelich has a better post season career. ;D
I saw a stat today that said if you take out the Cubs games, the Brewers average attendance goes down only like 230 people per game. Either including or excluding the Cubs games, the Brewers are 10th in attendance.
Also, it feels reaaaaalll nice to run-rule the Cubs.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on September 04, 2018, 10:20:25 PM
Sure hope Yelich has a better post season career. ;D
At least Billy had as many post-season hits as Ernie Banks.
Man, that felt good. All wins count the same, but it was nice to see the Cubs unravel.
On another note, is there a rule in baseball dumber than the 40-man roster? September has games of significant consequence, but in any other month, an 11-1 game can be devastating to a bullpen for the next day. Instead, the Cubs can resume business as usual tomorrow.
I'll hang up and listen.
Just so I understand. Guys placed on the roster from the outside after 9/1 (say Gio Gonzalez or Curtis Granderson) aren't eligible for postseason, correct?
And on another note, boy were the Cubs sloppy yesterday. Way too many errors and walks to be competitive. From their perspective, they need to clean that up. Not that I'm hoping they do.
Quote from: jsglow on September 05, 2018, 09:07:42 AM
Just so I understand. Guys placed on the roster from the outside after 9/1 (say Gio Gonzalez or Curtis Granderson) aren't eligible for postseason, correct?
And on another note, boy were the Cubs sloppy yesterday. Way too many errors and walks to be competitive. From their perspective, they need to clean that up. Not that I'm hoping they do.
Brewers acquired Gio and Granderson before the 8/31 waiver trade deadline, and they were added to the 40 man accordingly. Guys that were on the 40 man roster on that date are eligible, though only up to 25 players. The Brewers will have to make some tough calls on pitching staff if they clinch.
Quote from: Jockey on September 04, 2018, 11:22:08 PM
At least Billy had as many post-season hits as Ernie Banks.
Billy played in the post-season with the A's.
Quote from: GB Warrior on September 05, 2018, 09:13:32 AM
Brewers acquired Gio and Granderson before the 8/31 waiver trade deadline, and they were added to the 40 man accordingly. Guys that were on the 40 man roster on that date are eligible, though only up to 25 players. The Brewers will have to make some tough calls on pitching staff if they clinch.
We were out of town so thanks for the clarification on the timing.
Quote from: GB Warrior on September 05, 2018, 09:13:32 AM
Brewers acquired Gio and Granderson before the 8/31 waiver trade deadline, and they were added to the 40 man accordingly. Guys that were on the 40 man roster on that date are eligible, though only up to 25 players. The Brewers will have to make some tough calls on pitching staff if they clinch.
I'm actually not certain that the playoff roster will be that difficult to decide. One normal starter (probably Guerra or Freddy at this point) won't make it in favor of a strong reliever. Assuming they keep 12 hitters they will have 13 pitchers:
Starters (4): Chacin, Anderson, Miley, one of Davies/Freddy/Guerra/Gio
High Leverage Relievers (5): Hader, Jeffress, Knebel, Soria, Jennings
Long Relief (4): Lyles, one of the left out starters, Cedeno, Burnes
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 05, 2018, 09:14:13 AM
Billy played in the post-season with the A's.
One hitless post-season with the A's.
Huge game for the Brewers tonight. A sweep accomplishes so much more than a 2-1 series win.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 04, 2018, 10:31:45 PM
I saw a stat today that said if you take out the Cubs games, the Brewers average attendance goes down only like 230 people per game. Either including or excluding the Cubs games, the Brewers are 10th in attendance.
Also, it feels reaaaaalll nice to run-rule the Cubs.
Yep, JS article discussing this yesterday:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/09/04/cubs-pitcher-cole-hamels-doesnt-think-its-rivalry-brewers/1188196002/
The Brewers are 10th in average attendance in 2018, ahead of places like Atlanta, the New York Mets, Philadelphia and Washington – a list of large markets and many with playoff aspirations.
If we subtracted the Cubs games entirely from the equation, the Brewers' average attendance ... would still be 10th.
Milwaukee is the only market that has to deal with the proximity of a considerably larger market. There are other teams that play in close proximity, though none as close as Chicago and Milwaukee playing in the same league. I see a lot of games at Miller Park each year, and I can say with some certainty that the Cubs games are the least fun, and it's got nothing to do with how "nice" the opposing fans are. Who wants to go to your home stadium and hear the visiting team get cheered? It's dispiriting and clouds the experience, unless you're the combative type who likes the adrenaline rush of facing that sort of adversity. I am not. I'm a dad with two young kids, and I'd just as soon not expose them to a crowd where many of the patrons are locked and loaded for "us vs. them."
Then you throw in the possibility that ticket demand on the secondary market yields some pretty nice payouts, and it becomes a no-brainer. Maybe that line of thinking makes someone less of a fan, even if they're sweating every single pitch from their couch. Few fans attend every game, and they're not going to choose the games that offer the least amount of fun, so I find the expectation that Brewers fans should come to their team's defense a little unreasonable.
Wisconsin sports teams have always been hampered by geography (Lake Michigan as a barrier) and the fact that the nation's 3rd largest city is immediately to it south limiting reach in that direction. It's the same problem the Bucks have generally; Packers less so because of their national appeal and the uniqueness of the franchise.
Milwaukee is a damn good baseball town with a very loyal fan base. The interesting thing in the last 20 years is the switch to the NL which elevated the Cubs rivalry to a place that never had existed with the Sox during earlier years.
Quote from: jsglow on September 05, 2018, 01:44:00 PM
The interesting thing in the last 20 years is the switch to the NL which elevated the Cubs rivalry to a place that never had existed with the Sox during earlier years.
The Cubs are also in the same division as the Brewers. The White Sox and Brewers were only in the same division from 94-97, (with a strike built-in).
The White Sox-Brewers fan fights were better.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 05, 2018, 02:54:21 PM
The White Sox-Brewers fan fights were better.
Manager fights too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyuoZW2pS6w
Poor Ohtani, another Tommy John.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/angels-shohei-ohtani-likely-headed-for-tommy-john-surgery-after-mri-shows-new-damage-in-elbow/ (https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/angels-shohei-ohtani-likely-headed-for-tommy-john-surgery-after-mri-shows-new-damage-in-elbow/)
Quote from: #bansultan on September 05, 2018, 03:23:54 PM
Manager fights too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyuoZW2pS6w
That was Terry Bevington's high water mark.
I'm pretty sure County Stadium's infamous dime beer night met it's demise after a Sox game where fights were breaking out all over the stands.
So usually the division winner with the best record plays the wild card winner in the divisional series but if it's the Brewers and they have a better record than the other two division winners would it still end up Brewers/Cubs?
Quote from: Skitch on September 05, 2018, 09:34:03 PM
So usually the division winner with the best record plays the wild card winner in the divisional series but if it's the Brewers and they have a better record than the other two division winners would it still end up Brewers/Cubs?
Yes. When they went to two wild cards in became too weird logistically to separate teams from the same division in the ALDS and NLDS. Best record gets the wild card game winner.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 05, 2018, 09:55:06 PM
Yes. When they went to two wild cards in became too weird logistically to separate teams from the same division in the ALDS and NLDS. Best record gets the wild card game winner.
I still think the best record should play the worst record, not the wild card winner. Right now Yankees are the second best team in baseball and if they were to win the wild card game the best record in baseball would be playing the second best record in baseball in the first round in a best of 5 series. Your first priority should be to reward the best team, not punish the wild card, which will often not be the worst of the remaining four.
Quote from: CTWarrior on September 06, 2018, 07:23:43 AM
Your first priority should be to reward the best team, not punish the wild card, which will often not be the worst of the remaining four.
I actually think the first priority should be the "punish" the team which didn't win their respective division.
I still prefer the two division format of MLB from 69-94. I understand we'll never go back to that system, but wish there was an East/West division in both leagues, and only 4 teams made the playoffs.
My solution...
Get rid of the divisions entirely. Have each team play the others in the same league 7-9 times over the course of the year. (114 games)
Have each team play every other team in the other league once, plus one additional series against a designated "rival." (48 games)
Five teams from each league make the playoffs. 4 v. 5 play the wild card with the winner facing 1. 2 plays 3 in the division series.
Advantages:
**More balanced schedule
**Under this current scenario, every team currently in the playoffs would still be in the playoffs. However, there would actually be some pretty good playoff races for that fourth and fifth spots.
Disadvantages:
**Can't get perfect home and home splits.
**Loss of regional rivals - if those actually exist. (I don't think they are that important.)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 06, 2018, 09:04:45 AM
I actually think the first priority should be the "punish" the team which didn't win their respective division.
Why would you punish a team for geography? Why should the Indians get a break by playing in a division where all the teams are either tanking or rebuilding? If you traded the Indians and the Rays divisions, the Rays would be coasting to a playoff spot and the Indians would be thinking about next year. Why should they be given an advantage over the A's or Yankees, who have better records against tougher schedules? In the AL this year, the West has it a lot tougher than the East, and the East has it a lot tougher than the Central.
I think you are punishing the non-division winners by forcing them into one game playoff. After that, seed them by record.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 06, 2018, 09:17:51 AM
**Loss of regional rivals - if those actually exist. (I don't think they are that important.)
I agree with most of what you wrote, but not the bolded portion. I think that rivalries are big in baseball. As a Red Sox fan, I would hate less games against the other teams in the East. I still miss playing the Tigers and Indians more regularly.
Also travel costs would increase in the scenario you describe (more cross country trips, etc).
If the MLB does add two more teams (which I think is a big if), do they expand the playoffs? Take the top half from each league like the NBA does? Or go to 6 with bye weeks like the NFL?
While I think 5 is better than 4, I personally don't like the 1 game wild card series.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 06, 2018, 09:04:45 AM
I actually think the first priority should be the "punish" the team which didn't win their respective division.
I still prefer the two division format of MLB from 69-94. I understand we'll never go back to that system, but wish there was an East/West division in both leagues, and only 4 teams made the playoffs.
This.
The team with the best record gets to play a team who is down a top starter because of the Wild Card game.
Example: Cubs only saw MadBum once in the 2016 NLDS because he pitched in the Wild Card game.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 06, 2018, 09:17:51 AM
My solution...
Get rid of the divisions entirely. Have each team play the others in the same league 7-9 times over the course of the year. (114 games)
Have each team play every other team in the other league once, plus one additional series against a designated "rival." (48 games)
Five teams from each league make the playoffs. 4 v. 5 play the wild card with the winner facing 1. 2 plays 3 in the division series.
Advantages:
**More balanced schedule
**Under this current scenario, every team currently in the playoffs would still be in the playoffs. However, there would actually be some pretty good playoff races for that fourth and fifth spots.
Disadvantages:
**Can't get perfect home and home splits.
**Loss of regional rivals - if those actually exist. (I don't think they are that important.)
Not against this, though scheduling 48 one-game "series" would be tough and I do think regional rivalries would be lost, but inevitably new rivalries created.
Quote from: LAZER on September 06, 2018, 11:21:14 AM
Not against this, though scheduling 48 one-game "series" would be tough and I do think regional rivalries would be lost, but inevitably new rivalries created.
I don't think he was advocating for one game series. I think he was advocating for one three game series against every team in the other league plus an extra against your designated rival.
15 teams x 3 + 3 = 48
Quote from: LAZER on September 06, 2018, 11:21:14 AM
Not against this, though scheduling 48 one-game "series" would be tough and I do think regional rivalries would be lost, but inevitably new rivalries created.
It's not 48 one game series. Its 1 series of 3 games against 14 teams and 2 series of 3 games against one team.
I think when baseball goes to 32 teams, divisions will be completely redone regardless of leagues. At this time the schedule will completely change.
I've always liked this idea. Might consider combining west/south and north/east to have four 8 team divisions.
(https://cdn.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-13-at-1.01.40-PM.png)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 06, 2018, 12:13:27 PM
I think when baseball goes to 32 teams, divisions will be completely redone regardless of leagues. At this time the schedule will completely change.
I've always liked this idea. Might consider combining west/south and north/east to have four 8 team divisions.
(https://cdn.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-13-at-1.01.40-PM.png)
Trying to get away from us eh TT? ;D
Not a bad plan though I don't think they would do that many league switches unless they get rid of the rule differences. I would also try to move the Twins into a North Division, them in the AL South seems wrong. Maybe move Nationals to AL South, Pirates NL East, and Twins to NL North.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 06, 2018, 12:13:27 PM
I think when baseball goes to 32 teams, divisions will be completely redone regardless of leagues. At this time the schedule will completely change.
I've always liked this idea. Might consider combining west/south and north/east to have four 8 team divisions.
(https://cdn.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-13-at-1.01.40-PM.png)
The brass in Tampa and Baltimore would probably have a riot if you told them they weren't going to be in a division with the Yankees and Sox anymore. Unlike the Brewers, who get a modest boost to attendance when the Cubs come to town, the Rays and Orioles depend heavily on the Yanks and Sox for ticket revenue. Competitively, of course, those teams would get a boost from not being behind NY and Boston every year.
I've thought about re-alignment a lot, and I really don't like the idea of 4-team divisions. I'd be in favor of 8-team divisions with a schedule that looks like:
In-division: 10 games x 7 teams= 70 games
Same league, other division: home and home series, 6 games x 8 teams= 48 games
Interleague: vs divisions in alternate years, 3 games x 8 teams = 24 games
That's 142, plus playoffs that start in mid-September with more like 8 teams from each league. You wanna fix the attendance problem? you make more teams relevant to the postseason chase.
AL East: Yankees, Red Sox, Blue Jays, Orioles, Tigers, Indians, Rays, expansion club
AL West: Angels, Mariners, Rangers, As, Astros, Twins, White Sox, Royals
NL East: Mets, Phillies, Nationals, Pirates, Reds, Marlins, Braves, expansion club
NL West: Dodgers, Giants, Padres, Rockies, DBacks, Cubs, Brewers, Cardinals
Cubs have won 11 of 13 games with Daniel Murphy in the starting lineup.
Sox prospect Dylan Cease has been named minor league pitcher of the year (overall, not just for the Sox) Kopech seems to have been runner up.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FbgG6NRcxec/V8ZCu9hgsmI/AAAAAAAADGQ/280KO2x5D_E7ncqICvEN4kRTlFxQXsCfACLcB/s1600/usa-today-9282632.0.jpg)
The Cubs are currently 12-5 on their 23 games in 23 days including going 5-3 so far on their current 11 game road trip.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 07, 2018, 10:19:25 AM
The Cubs are currently 12-5 on their 23 games in 23 days including going 5-3 so far on their current 11 game road trip.
(https://i.gifer.com/O7QD.gif)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 07, 2018, 10:19:25 AM
The Cubs are currently 12-5 on their 23 games in 23 days including going 5-3 so far on their current 11 game road trip.
I'm in DC for the series. Getting that first one against Strasburg was big. Nerve-wracking game last night.
Rain is in the forecast today and tomorrow I believe so I hope they can get the games in.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 07, 2018, 10:19:25 AM
The Cubs are currently 12-5 on their 23 games in 23 days including going 5-3 so far on their current 11 game road trip.
Brewers' 21 games in 20 days started 9-4, and we know how that turned out...
Also, we really don't need a new superlative Cubs fact every 24 hours.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 07, 2018, 12:50:41 PM
Also, we really don't need a new superlative Cubs fact every 24 hours.
I enjoy them.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 07, 2018, 12:50:41 PM
Also, we really don't need a new superlative Cubs fact every 24 hours.
Just giving you an update on what you thought was make or break for the Brewers a week ago.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54934.msg1039760#msg1039760
Mark it down. The Cubs are winning the division. Not really a great revelation.
But that's not to say they don't have vulnerabilities. Of course the dream scenario for Crew fans would be to beat the Cards at home in the 1 game WC and then take down the Cubs in the next series. Unlikely but not impossible.
Anyway, it's fun to play meaningful baseball in September (and hopefully October). Beats the heck out of being 15 games back.
Brewers are currently 79-62 in the midst of their 162 game schedule.
Quote from: The Deane Team on September 07, 2018, 03:11:31 PM
Brewers are currently 79-62 in the midst of their 162 game schedule.
I enjoy this stat as a Cubs fan.
The 2018 Brewers were the first NL team to 50 wins, and nobody can ever take that away from them.
Quote from: The Deane Team on September 07, 2018, 03:11:31 PM
Brewers are currently 79-62 in the midst of their 162 game schedule.
Won 54, lost 54, not sure the other 54 are going to work out just yet.
So is Yelich playing today?
Michael Kopech. Tommy John.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 07, 2018, 04:30:56 PM
Michael Kopech. Tommy John.
Yeah...sucks to hear. He'll battle back, but takes a lot of wind out of the sails for a potential wild card run in '19.
If he misses next season that doesn't count for service time right? If he's going to have it now might actually be the ideal time before their contending window opens.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 07, 2018, 12:50:41 PM
Brewers' 21 games in 20 days started 9-4, and we know how that turned out...
Also, we really don't need a new superlative Cubs fact every 24 hours.
Cubs are 2-0 in their last two.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 07, 2018, 04:36:40 PM
If he misses next season that doesn't count for service time right? If he's going to have it now might actually be the ideal time before their contending window opens.
What is the rule behind that? Why wouldn't it count as service time? Not enough major league time yet?
Uncertain. I always thought once you were up the clock started ticking. But Bryon Buxton has been up and the Twins keeping him in AAA now to save service time. Granted he was sent back down and not hurt on a Major League roster.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 07, 2018, 04:36:40 PM
If he misses next season that doesn't count for service time right? If he's going to have it now might actually be the ideal time before their contending window opens.
I'm curious what this does to their approach this offseason. I wonder now if they pickup Shields option just to have someone eat up innings.
I know the rain messed with almost all his starts, but it's been exciting and must watch when he's been on the mound. Really since Kerry Wood was a rookie, haven't had a starter with that kind of buzz in town. Prior had it, but I always thought Wood's starts were more must see tv.
No easy way to answer it, but given the service time (only 14 innings), did the Sox error in calling him up this year?
No way to know if he was a ticking time bomb or not. He would have gotten a handful of more starts with Charlotte this year. In person against the Twins in his debut, I could tell he was overthrowing (nerves/adrenaline). In his four starts, his avg velocity steadily declined from 97 to just 93.5 when Detroit beat him up the other night, so something was clearly happening physically. Would it have happened at Charlotte? Would it have happened if say they called him up in May '19? Tough to say.
That's the question. He was in the majors when the injury occurred, even though it was only for a couple of weeks.
Schwarber was obviously up for longer in 2015 and then you lost a year of service time with his injury in 2016.
So I don't know if basically you lose a year because you were already promoted or if you have to reach some type of threshold.
I assume he loses a year but could easily be wrong.
Jamie Garcia will start for the Cubs in Game 1 tomorrow. Cole Hamels in Game 2.
The Cubs and Nats had an hour rain delay before finally starting and getting one inning in before another three hour delay. Strangely enough it stopped raining two and a half hours into the three hour delay when MLB eventually postponed it. (MLB has control since it's the Cubs final trip to Washington.)
Unfortunately the Cubs waste a Jon Lester start with the postponement as he pitched a single inning.
But the real kick in the ass is for fans who had tickets to tonight's game. They aren't doing a split double header tomorrow so you have to have tickets to the regularly scheduled Saturday game to see the make up game. Fans with tickets to the postponed game have to enhange it for a future 2018 game.
So MLB makes these people wait around for three hours until it stops raining, postpones the game, then they can't even see the makeup game.
Insanity for those fans.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 08, 2018, 12:20:28 AM
The Cubs and Nats had an hour rain delay before finally starting and getting one inning in before another three hour delay. Strangely enough it stopped raining two and a half hours into the three hour delay when MLB eventually postponed it. (MLB has control since it's the Cubs final trip to Washington.)
Unfortunately the Cubs waste a Jon Lester start with the postponement as he pitched a single inning.
But the real kick in the ass is for fans who had tickets to tonight's game. They aren't doing a split double header tomorrow so you have to have tickets to the regularly scheduled Saturday game to see the make up game. Fans with tickets to the postponed game have to enhange it for a future 2018 game.
So MLB makes these people wait around for three hours until it stops raining, postpones the game, then they can't even see the makeup game.
Insanity for those fans.
I was at the game tonight. We stayed until it was called. Luckily we have tickets for tomorrow night as well so we're covered in regards to the games.
However the way they handled concessions, announcements, etc throughout the delay was so egregiously awful that I don't even know how to describe it. By far the worst fan experience I've ever had at a baseball game.
It was my first time at Nats park and if I didn't have a friend that lived nearby I would never even consider coming again based on this experience.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 08, 2018, 12:20:28 AM
The Cubs and Nats had an hour rain delay before finally starting and getting one inning in before another three hour delay. Strangely enough it stopped raining two and a half hours into the three hour delay when MLB eventually postponed it. (MLB has control since it's the Cubs final trip to Washington.)
Unfortunately the Cubs waste a Jon Lester start with the postponement as he pitched a single inning.
But the real kick in the ass is for fans who had tickets to tonight's game. They aren't doing a split double header tomorrow so you have to have tickets to the regularly scheduled Saturday game to see the make up game. Fans with tickets to the postponed game have to enhange it for a future 2018 game.
So MLB makes these people wait around for three hours until it stops raining, postpones the game, then they can't even see the makeup game.
Insanity for those fans.
Sad.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 08, 2018, 12:36:55 AM
However the way they handled concessions
Just curious, what do you mean by the way they handled concessions?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 08, 2018, 07:51:04 AM
Just curious, what do you mean by the way they handled concessions?
We were in the 200 level. I'm in from Chicago so we were going to stay til they played or called the game. By about 9:45 eastern they started closing concessions, not selling alcohol, etc. No announcements or any info. The employees were not helpful.
We had to go down to the main concourse to find anything to eat and drink and even then a lot was closed down. Plus, they are supposed to sell beer until 10:30. Guest services was also shut down.
If you're waiting out a delay for a couple of hours it shouldn't be that difficult to get something to eat and drink at 10 PM.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 08, 2018, 09:04:00 AM
We were in the 200 level. I'm in from Chicago so we were going to stay til they played or called the game. By about 9:45 eastern they started closing concessions, not selling alcohol, etc. No announcements or any info. The employees were not helpful.
We had to go down to the main concourse to find anything to eat and drink and even then a lot was closed down. Plus, they are supposed to sell beer until 10:30. Guest services was also shut down.
If you're waiting out a delay for a couple of hours it shouldn't be that difficult to get something to eat and drink at 10 PM.
Oh wow. You'd think they'd leave that open to make concession money.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 08, 2018, 09:05:14 AM
Oh wow. You'd think they'd leave that open to make concession money.
One would think. A lot of those employees couldn't get out of there fast enough. At least make an announcement that only concessions on the main concourse will remain open or something like that.
With the weather delay to start today's game, the Cubs and Nats are going to play three games in under 24 hours.
Jorge Lopez (guy Brewers gave up for Moose) has a perfect game in the ninth inning for the Royals.
Lost it in the ninth.
Cubs/Nats game 1 delayed an hour by rain. Game 2 delayed 15 minutes because they somehow couldn't fit a Jayson Werth ceremony in between the two games. Obviously there is now a downpour in the 8th inning of game 2 and yet another rain delay.
Brewers, here's your shot. The Cubs will be coming in to the series having played three games in 24 hours and their bullpen is shot.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 08, 2018, 11:16:24 PM
Cubs/Nats game 1 delayed an hour by rain. Game 2 delayed 15 minutes because they somehow couldn't fit a Jayson Werth ceremony in between the two games. Obviously there is now a downpour in the 8th inning of game 2 and yet another rain delay.
Brewers, here's your shot. The Cubs will be coming in to the series having played three games in 24 hours and their bullpen is shot.
Sad.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 07, 2018, 04:37:19 PM
Cubs are 2-0 in their last two.
Cubs 0-2 yesterday, enjoying your weekend?
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24616647/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-perplexed-friday-rainout-washington-nationals (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24616647/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-perplexed-friday-rainout-washington-nationals)
Quote from: The Deane Team on September 09, 2018, 08:39:50 AM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24616647/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-perplexed-friday-rainout-washington-nationals (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24616647/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-perplexed-friday-rainout-washington-nationals)
Oh the irony.
Sad.
Quote from: The Deane Team on September 09, 2018, 08:39:50 AM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24616647/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-perplexed-friday-rainout-washington-nationals (http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24616647/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-perplexed-friday-rainout-washington-nationals)
MLB going all out in its quest to keep the Chubbies from winning the world series in the next century.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 09, 2018, 08:53:34 AM
Oh the irony.
Sad.
How is it ironic? If they didn't start the Friday game like the Cubs did last year, everything wouldn't be messed up.
Also I'm guessing Cubs fans will let it go in a day or two unlike you who is still complaining about a game you won a year and a half later.
Dey are all thieves, aina?
Unrelated to the weather, the Cubs bullpen is starting to struggle due to its over use and cost them game two yesterday and the first game of the Brewers series last week. It's going to be a major issue the rest of the way.
This shouldn't be confused with the Brewer bullpen who is fresh and only struggles because Counsell doesn't know how to use them.
This could get really interesting by mid week. And either way, doesn't it seem like we're potentially heading toward a Crew/Cubs postseason battle?
Quote from: nicoglow on September 09, 2018, 09:36:11 AM
This could get really interesting by mid week. And either way, doesn't it seem like we're potentially heading toward a Crew/Cubs postseason battle?
Cubs sphincter certaintly tightening. Next series to decide things?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 09, 2018, 09:10:24 AM
How is it ironic? If they didn't start the Friday game like the Cubs did last year, everything wouldn't be messed up.
Also I'm guessing Cubs fans will let it go in a day or two unlike you who is still complaining about a game you won a year and a half later.
It's not ironic? Okay.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 09, 2018, 09:36:11 AM
This could get really interesting by mid week. And either way, doesn't it seem like we're potentially heading toward a Crew/Cubs postseason battle?
It's a shame that it would most likely be occur in the NLDS. The Crew and Cubs are the two best teams in the NL and they should be meeting in the NLCS with the world series on the line.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 09, 2018, 09:41:13 AM
Cubs sphincter certaintly tightening. Next series to decide things?
Lol they were down 3-1 in the World Series. I think this barely registers on the sphincter tightening scale.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 09, 2018, 09:57:05 AM
It's a shame that it would most likely be occur in the NLDS. The Crew and Cubs are the two best teams in the NL and they should be meeting in the NLCS with the world series on the line.
This. Cubs and Brewers are clearly top two.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 09, 2018, 09:41:13 AM
Cubs sphincter certaintly tightening. Next series to decide things?
::)
https://soundcloud.com/roomnoise/the-price-is-right-cliffhanger-mountain-climber-song
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 09, 2018, 09:57:05 AM
It's a shame that it would most likely be occur in the NLDS. The Crew and Cubs are the two best teams in the NL and they should be meeting in the NLCS with the world series on the line.
What would really be a shame is if the Brewers or Cubs had to play (and lost) the WC game against a team that's 6+ games back.
Quote from: Benny B on September 09, 2018, 10:37:18 AM
What would really be a shame is if the Brewers or Cubs had to play (and lost) the WC game against a team that's 6+ games back.
This happened in 2015 when the Cardinals, Pirates, and Cubs were the best three teams in baseball and all eliminated each other for one NLCS spot. I'm glad the Cubs won but that really sucks for the Cardinals and Pirates.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 09, 2018, 10:26:31 AM
Lol they were down 3-1 in the World Series. I think this barely registers on the sphincter tightening scale.
I don't know, based on the posts this thread I'm seeing some symptoms of tightened sphincters
And today's game is delayed and the radar doesn't look promising. Pittsburgh postponed their game this morning. They should probably do the same here.
If they don't play today, however, there aren't really any good options. If they move it to the end of the season as a if necessary game the Nationals could lose a gate. Both teams have an off day Thursday but it's expected to rain all day due to a hurricane. They could move the game to Wrigley (like the Marlins and Brewers last season) and give the gate to the Nationals.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 09, 2018, 12:25:57 PM
And today's game is delayed and the radar doesn't look promising. Pittsburgh postponed their game this morning. They should probably do the same here.
If they don't play today, however, there aren't really any good options. If they move it to the end of the season as a if necessary game the Nationals could lose a gate. Both teams have an off day Thursday but it's expected to rain all day due to a hurricane. They could move the game to Wrigley (like the Marlins and Brewers last season) and give the gate to the Nationals.
They would probably move it to Miller actually
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 09, 2018, 01:00:13 PM
They would probably move it to Miller actually
That's true. It seems to be the "neutral" site location with the roof.
MLB screwed Cubs
Big sweep for the Crew. It was good to see Schoop have a big moment.
Hopefully they can ride this momentum into a good performance in Chicago. It looks like the Cubs are skipping Montgomery. Should be a fun series.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 09, 2018, 11:09:23 AM
This happened in 2015 when the Cardinals, Pirates, and Cubs were the best three teams in baseball and all eliminated each other for one NLCS spot. I'm glad the Cubs won but that really sucks for the Cardinals and Pirates.
Three best teams in baseball? in the regular season, perhaps. But those three were a combined 5-8 in the playoffs and none came close to reaching the World Series. The American League (as has consistently been the case for decades until this year) was the better league and it's champ easily beat the team that blew the Cubs away. KC was the best team in baseball in 2015.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 09, 2018, 05:44:54 PM
How? The game has to be made up.
23 straight days with games. Could easily have moved it to oct 1st if it ends up mattering. I honestly thought that the mlbpa had some kind of mandatory off days. I also doubt the game will actually be played as a hurricane is incoming.
I don't think MLB would screw the Cubs. It's in their best interest to have them and their market in the playoffs.
I do think they handled this weekend poorly though.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 09, 2018, 06:31:02 PM
23 straight days with games. Could easily have moved it to oct 1st if it ends up mattering. I honestly thought that the mlbpa had some kind of mandatory off days. I also doubt the game will actually be played as a hurricane is incoming.
They didn't have a game today. But why should they get an extra day at the end of the season? This is how rescheduling is always done so I don't see the issue.
And the hurricane won't be there on Thursday.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 09, 2018, 06:58:17 PM
They didn't have a game today. But why should they get an extra day at the end of the season? This is how rescheduling is always done so I don't see the issue.
And the hurricane won't be there on Thursday.
Do you really think a rainout where you are at the stadium all day is the same as an off day in between 2 Home series?
Quote from: MUDPT on September 09, 2018, 07:28:56 PM
Do you really think a rainout where you are at the stadium all day is the same as an off day in between 2 Home series?
I think Cub fans are whining again.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 09, 2018, 07:29:46 PM
I think Cub fans are whining again.
Yup.
The Brewers played 21 games in 20 days. And they had to do it with a 25 man roster, not a 40 man roster.
That's baseball. Don't like it? Put a roof over your stadium.
Lol you guys still bring up a rain out from a year and a half ago THAT YOU WON!
How many times this year has a Cubs fan complained that the Brewers got three extra home games last season?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 09, 2018, 08:04:42 PM
Lol you guys still bring up a rain out from a year and a half ago THAT YOU WON!
How many times this year has a Cubs fan complained that the Brewers got three extra home games last season?
I never complained.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 09, 2018, 08:04:42 PM
Lol you guys still bring up a rain out from a year and a half ago THAT YOU WON!
How many times this year has a Cubs fan complained that the Brewers got three extra home games last season?
Sad.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 09, 2018, 07:29:46 PM
I think Cub fans are whining again.
You think they're whining now, just wait until Thursday morning.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 09, 2018, 07:35:22 PM
Yup.
The Brewers played 21 games in 20 days. And they had to do it with a 25 man roster, not a 40 man roster.
That's baseball. Don't like it? Put a roof over your stadium.
Can we charge the taxpayers of Chicago $290 million?
There's been a lot of revisionist history on the epic rainout of May 20, 2017, so let me go through it step by step.
May 19, 2017, Brewers Cubs play, including a rain delay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Pc0r3q7_o
May 20, 2017
More rain in the morning in Chicago. O'Hare recorded 0.34 inches (more then the day before), which we all know fell before the game started, because Stearns and Counsell let us know.
https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/KORD/date/2017-5-20?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=
The field was wet. Did the Cubs jump the gun on cancelling? Probably. Were they trying to avoid another game like the day before? Maybe. Were they trying to protect the players on playing on a wet field that had no chance to dry? Maybe. Here's an example of a game they tried to play at Wrigley in 2003:
https://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2014/2/6/5378072/a-day-in-wrigley-field-history-may-11-2003
(Sorry for posting from Bleed Cubbie Blue)
Finally, the Cubs had Davis, Koji, Rondon and Carl's Jr., available out of the bullpen if they played that day, so it wasn't to "rest their bullpen." Maybe they just didn't want to play in terrible weather...
Quote from: MUDPT on September 09, 2018, 10:44:43 PM
Can we charge the taxpayers of Chicago $290 million?
There's been a lot of revisionist history on the epic rainout of May 20, 2017, so let me go through it step by step.
May 19, 2017, Brewers Cubs play, including a rain delay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Pc0r3q7_o
May 20, 2017
More rain in the morning in Chicago. O'Hare recorded 0.34 inches (more then the day before), which we all know fell before the game started, because Stearns and Counsell let us know.
https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/KORD/date/2017-5-20?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=
The field was wet. Did the Cubs jump the gun on cancelling? Probably. Were they trying to avoid another game like the day before? Maybe. Were they trying to protect the players on playing on a wet field that had no chance to dry? Maybe. Here's an example of a game they tried to play at Wrigley in 2003:
https://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2014/2/6/5378072/a-day-in-wrigley-field-history-may-11-2003
(Sorry for posting from Bleed Cubbie Blue)
Finally, the Cubs had Davis, Koji, Rondon and Carl's Jr., available out of the bullpen if they played that day, so it wasn't to "rest their bullpen." Maybe they just didn't want to play in terrible weather...
Odd response. That has to do with the Brewers playing 21 games in 20 days this season with only 25 roster spots instead of 40 roster spots...how?
Scheduling this makeup game for Thursday at 4:00 Eastern seems like a bad idea.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/qGfe1q5D7VD8hQbbyiZEgK_0fCo=/0x0:897x736/1320x0/filters:focal(0x0:897x736)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/12877975/145023_5day_cone_no_line_and_wind.png)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 09, 2018, 05:45:16 PM
Three best teams in baseball? in the regular season, perhaps. But those three were a combined 5-8 in the playoffs and none came close to reaching the World Series. The American League (as has consistently been the case for decades until this year) was the better league and it's champ easily beat the team that blew the Cubs away. KC was the best team in baseball in 2015.
Wow.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 09, 2018, 07:29:46 PM
I think Cub fans are whining again.
Hilarious. At least you're not as bad as Wades. Although that's impossible.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 09, 2018, 11:15:43 PM
Hilarious. At least you're not as bad as Wades. Although that's impossible.
Sick burn.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 09, 2018, 07:29:46 PM
I think Cub fans are whining again.
You didn't answer my question.
Yep, I am sensing some tightened sphincters
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 09, 2018, 11:55:26 PM
Yep, I am sensing some tightened sphincters
Eh, just a bad weekend (for Cubs/Nats players and fans) spending more time waiting for baseball than actually playing baseball.
Glad they called the game earlyish today, and good weather predicted for Chicago. Should be a fun series with the Brewers, with the Cubbies relatively rested.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 09, 2018, 06:58:17 PM
And the hurricane won't be there on Thursday.
You must not understand how weather works with an incoming hurricane.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 10, 2018, 07:36:23 AM
You must not understand how weather works with an incoming hurricane.
I think I understand it better than Cub fans do. Playing a game in DC when a hurricane is about 400 miles away should be no problem.
Weather Underground's forecast for Thursday: Variable clouds with scattered thunderstorms. High 84. Chance of rain 50%.
You guys make it sound like the eyewall is passing over the stadium at anytime.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 09, 2018, 11:37:02 PM
You didn't answer my question.
Because I don't give a sh*t how much rest they get. It's baseball. Put a roof over your junky little stadium and you won't have to worry about it.
Well, listed as tbd, but it seems like Thursday may be a Scherzer day.
I don't think this game is going to happen in DC. Hopefully they are making alternate plans now for a neutral site. Look at the wind forecast attached.
Now *that* is a different forecast than what I have seen so far. It's not reflected in the local forecasts yet though.
I honestly would not be shocked to see that game moved to Milwaukee.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 10, 2018, 07:57:21 AM
Because I don't give a sh*t how much rest they get. It's baseball. Put a roof over your junky little stadium and you won't have to worry about it.
Why did you make it a point then that the cubs had an "off day" on Sunday?
Quote from: MUDPT on September 10, 2018, 09:07:19 AM
Why did you make it a point then that the cubs had an "off day" on Sunday?
Mostly just to stoke the whining.
20 games left, 16 in the city of Chicago (13 at Wrigley).
Milwaukee has 18 games, 9 on the road.
Quote from: WarriorDad on September 10, 2018, 09:47:37 AM
20 games left, 16 in the city of Chicago (13 at Wrigley).
Milwaukee has 18 games, 9 on the road.
With the White Sox being so terrible, do Cubs fans flock to Downvote Field like they do to Miller Park? Or will that be a mostly hostile, pro-Sox crowd?
Can all ya'll uppity Al Rokers quit fighting with each other for a sec and tell me what I really need to know:
- Does Scherzer make his scheduled start at Atl on Fri? How many of that Fri-Sun series get played?
- Is Wheeler's start at Miami on Wednesday safe?
- Are the Phillies going to get their home series against Miami at the end of the week in?
Quote from: nicoglow on September 10, 2018, 08:44:06 AM
I honestly would not be shocked to see that game moved to Milwaukee.
Would be a bummer for the Brewers. I'm sure the Nationals wouldn't put up much of a fight if they are out of it. I would assume Houston or Miami wouldn't make sense logistically.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 10, 2018, 10:42:01 AM
Would be a bummer for the Brewers. I'm sure the Nationals wouldn't put up much of a fight if they are out of it. I would assume Houston or Miami wouldn't make sense logistically.
I'm not concerned at all. The Crew has a perfect opportunity this week. Win 2 or 3 and it gets interesting. Fewer than that? W/C.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 10, 2018, 09:55:57 AM
With the White Sox being so terrible, do Cubs fans flock to Downvote Field like they do to Miller Park? Or will that be a mostly hostile, pro-Sox crowd?
Sox have a respectable core fan base that shows up for the big games. Quite the knowledgeable crowd, honestly hasn't been hostile in quite some time, IMO. The Cell is a great place, excellent food.
Quote from: PTMannion on September 10, 2018, 11:29:40 AM
Sox have a respectable core fan base that shows up for the big games. Quite the knowledgeable crowd, honestly hasn't been hostile in quite some time, IMO. The Cell is a great place, excellent food.
I've seen much more hostility at miller then Comiskey in my life time.
.
Honest question, do they factor recency into MVP discussions? Are stats at the end of the year worth more than stats at the beginning?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 10, 2018, 01:16:12 PM
Honest question, do they factor recency into MVP discussions? Are stats at the end of the year worth more than stats at the beginning?
There is no official position on this, but if they do, it would be way down the list. In MLB all games count the same, so I don't believe it ought to be relevant. A game won in September doesn't count more than one won in April, though it may seem that way. I'm having trouble thinking of a time where a late spurt got an MVP for someone, though that does not mean it has not happened.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 10, 2018, 08:44:06 AM
I honestly would not be shocked to see that game moved to Milwaukee.
Rumor has it that the Miller Park grounds crew is going to be fertilizing the grass all day Thursday just in case they need to keep the grass alive for a few extra weeks before winter rolls in.
Quote from: PTMannion on September 10, 2018, 11:29:40 AM
Sox have a respectable core fan base that shows up for the big games. Quite the knowledgeable crowd, honestly hasn't been hostile in quite some time, IMO. The Cell is a great place, excellent food.
Didn't mean "hostile" as in combative fans, just "hostile" as in the fans will still mostly be cheering for the White Sox.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 10, 2018, 01:16:12 PM
Honest question, do they factor recency into MVP discussions? Are stats at the end of the year worth more than stats at the beginning?
"They" would be the voters for the BBWAA, and they factor in all kinds of things that happen over the course of a 162-game season.
As for your exact question, sure, a player carrying a team late in a season to a division title or such definitely could be one of the factors considered.
Perhaps the best example of this was Oakland's Jason Giambi in 2000. He was already having a very good season but was neck-and-neck with Frank Thomas and A-Rod for MVP consideration before going 13 HR, 32 RBI and 1.380 OPS in Sept/Oct to clinch the award. (When it later came out he was a major juicer, there was a movement to take the award away and give it to Thomas, but it didn't happen.)
I'm sure similar scenarios have boosted other candidates in other years, but Giambi was one I knew off the top of my bald head.
I also am quite sure that the late-season factor is why guys like Yasiel Puig, Rick Sutcliffe and Doyle Alexander got a decent amount of MVP votes in past years.
I'm guessing that few voters place late-season heroics as the main reason for choosing a candidate, but certainly it's a factor. And as a guy who voted for BBWAA awards once upon a time, I think it's perfectly fine to have it be one of many factors. Others are free to agree or disagree.
Quote from: Benny B on September 10, 2018, 01:42:27 PM
Rumor has it that the Miller Park grounds crew is going to be fertilizing the grass all day Thursday just in case they need to keep the grass alive for a few extra weeks before winter rolls in.
Make sure it's nice and green for Ed Sheeran.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 10, 2018, 10:42:01 AM
Would be a bummer for the Brewers. I'm sure the Nationals wouldn't put up much of a fight if they are out of it. I would assume Houston or Miami wouldn't make sense logistically.
So, you want us to help set your Fantasy Lineup? :)
Serious question, why is Yelich all over the MVP conversation, especially from the Brewer announcers, but nothing on Cain?
Quote from: Jockey on September 10, 2018, 05:49:00 PM
So, you want us to help set your Fantasy Lineup? :)
Not sure I understand that reference.
I would say the reason for Yelich over Cain is the home runs and RBIs. However, his defense is such an asset. I believe Cain is leading the NL in WAR depending on the site you look at.
Knock knock
https://soundcloud.com/roomnoise/the-price-is-right-cliffhanger-mountain-climber-song
Hader was...good.
Hader was vicious. ;D
Crew.
This is getting really fun.
Yikes. Think the Cubs are in trouble now. Look wiped and no off days for another ten days.
Afraid they are playing to host the Wild Card game now.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 10, 2018, 10:35:02 PM
Yikes. Think the Cubs are in trouble now. Look wiped and no off days for another ten days.
Afraid they are playing to host the Wild Card game now.
I think they get at least 1 of the next 2, meaning at least a 1 game lead. Wouldn't be surprised at all if they won the next 2.
Lot of games left for them, but a lot at home.
The Brewers are legit though. Wasn't sure what to think of their deadline deals, at both deadlines. The depth and experience they have available is huge.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 10, 2018, 10:35:02 PM
Afraid they are playing to host the Wild Card game now.
You mean the Cardinals will have to beat the Cubs at Wrigley.
Boy that would be delightful!
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 10, 2018, 10:45:54 PM
You mean the Cardinals will have to beat the Cubs at Wrigley.
Boy that would be delightful!
Cardinals better start winning some games again if they want to play at Wrigley in the Post Season.
In the National League, only three teams have been mathematically eliminated.
In the American League, only three teams not currently in the playoffs haven't been mathematically eliminated.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 10, 2018, 09:56:51 PM
Not sure I understand that reference.
I would say the reason for Yelich over Cain is the home runs and RBIs. However, his defense is such an asset. I believe Cain is leading the NL in WAR depending on the site you look at.
;D ;D - there's a reason you didn't understand. I meant to quote Burrow and my response was meant for him.
I gotta screw up at least once a day.
The problem with the game Thursday isn't necessarily the start of the game, but the end. As Florence approaches Thursday evening, if that game goes three and a half hours, that storm is going to keep moving inland, and the outer bands and wind will continue to pick up. From a team perspective, will a plane be able to get out of there after that game? From a resource perspective, would there be enough police/first responders? They (probably) should be utilized elsewhere most would argue.
Was anyone at the game tonight? Heard that one of the Brewers took off his warm up jacket while in the outfield during BP and was wearing an Aaron Rodgers jersey. The fans were not pleased. Haven't seen a picture so not sure who it was but Twitter says it was probably Knebel.
Quote from: Skitch on September 11, 2018, 12:34:54 AM
Was anyone at the game tonight? Heard that one of the Brewers took off his warm up jacket while in the outfield during BP and was wearing an Aaron Rodgers jersey. The fans were not pleased. Haven't seen a picture so not sure who it was but Twitter says it was probably Knebel.
Haven't seen or heard any mention but that would be freakin' cool. ARodg is super supportive of all things Wisconsin, including its sport teams. That extends all the way to Marquette as we all know. Not to get all 'over analyze', but I honestly believe he learned the lesson from Favre. Someday your playing career is over and besides Super Bowl rings all he has to work for is Bart Starr's legacy. He has long and loudly proclaimed Wisconsin 'home' and practices what he preaches. In his case I sincerely believe it's genuine. Not sure Danica ever successfully pulls off Sconnie girl however even if it's in her interest.
Quote from: Skitch on September 11, 2018, 12:34:54 AM
Was anyone at the game tonight? Heard that one of the Brewers took off his warm up jacket while in the outfield during BP and was wearing an Aaron Rodgers jersey. The fans were not pleased. Haven't seen a picture so not sure who it was but Twitter says it was probably Knebel.
As a bears fan, I hope this is a true story. Bears fans deserve that treatment for the implosion of '18
Quote from: MUDish on September 10, 2018, 11:49:20 PM
The problem with the game Thursday isn't necessarily the start of the game, but the end. As Florence approaches Thursday evening, if that game goes three and a half hours, that storm is going to keep moving inland, and the outer bands and wind will continue to pick up. From a team perspective, will a plane be able to get out of there after that game? From a resource perspective, would there be enough police/first responders? They (probably) should be utilized elsewhere most would argue.
All true. I want a fair fight down the stretch but this is going to further wear out a Cubs team that truly looks to be sucking wind right now. I wonder if MLB would allow them to keep 15-20 ballplayers home for that game and just sacrifice a loss for the sake of rest.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 11, 2018, 07:14:15 AM
As a bears fan, I hope this is a true story. Bears fans deserve that treatment for the implosion of '18
Not sure the fans necessarily deserve it but if you can't have a little fun like that without it becoming too 'in your face' it's all good. I had a little back and forth last night with a friend who is a Bears/Cubs fan. All good. This isn't life or death. :)
Didn't hear about anyone in the bullpen, but saw Sedar doing some putting guys through workouts in a Packers hat.
When I coached our really good club volleyball team and we'd have a tournament the weekend of the Bears/Packers game (typically in IL) our entire team would bring Packers jerseys and wear them to warm up. Didn't hurt that we knew nobody was going to beat us, but still you have to have a little fun in life.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 10, 2018, 09:52:47 PM
Serious question, why is Yelich all over the MVP conversation, especially from the Brewer announcers, but nothing on Cain?
Because he has a better slugging percentage than Cain by 120 points and a better OPS by about 100. Right now he tops the NL in offensive WAR.
Cain has been great, but Yelich has been more powerful without sacrificing batting average.
Granted I don't see as many Brewer games as you guys but from the outside looking in I'd say Yelich > Cain.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 11, 2018, 07:16:34 AM
All true. I want a fair fight down the stretch but this is going to further wear out a Cubs team that truly looks to be sucking wind right now. I wonder if MLB would allow them to keep 15-20 ballplayers home for that game and just sacrifice a loss for the sake of rest.
You mean like when the Brewers had the same thing heading into the all-star break?
Quote from: GB Warrior on September 11, 2018, 08:44:52 AM
You mean like when the Brewers had the same thing heading into the all-star break?
Every team has stretches of 20 games. The Cubs had one earlier in the year.
My complaint is how MLB is handling this. On Sunday, Pirates/Miami was canceled early in the morning. Cubs/Nats went to the stadium for four hours before canceling it. Pirates/Miami is being made up on October 1. Cubs/Nats is being made up on a mutual off day when a hurricane is scheduled to hit. Why not schedule it for October 1 and avoid the weather?
At least have an alternate plan in place for if a hurricane hits. But so far nothing.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 09:18:16 AM
Every team has stretches of 20 games. The Cubs had one earlier in the year.
My complaint is how MLB is handling this. On Sunday, Pirates/Miami was canceled early in the morning. Cubs/Nats went to the stadium for four hours before canceling it. Pirates/Miami is being made up on October 1. Cubs/Nats is being made up on a mutual off day when a hurricane is scheduled to hit. Why not schedule it for October 1 and avoid the weather?
At least have an alternate plan in place for if a hurricane hits. But so far nothing.
I don't see that Pittsburgh and Miami share an off day on their schedules before Oct. 1
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 09:18:16 AM
Every team has stretches of 20 games. The Cubs had one earlier in the year.
My complaint is how MLB is handling this. On Sunday, Pirates/Miami was canceled early in the morning. Cubs/Nats went to the stadium for four hours before canceling it. Pirates/Miami is being made up on October 1. Cubs/Nats is being made up on a mutual off day when a hurricane is scheduled to hit. Why not schedule it for October 1 and avoid the weather?
At least have an alternate plan in place for if a hurricane hits. But so far nothing.
MLB wants to schedule the game prior to the end of the season on a mutual day off, especially with the NL Wild Card game scheduled for October 2. It would be especially unfair for the road team should the Cubs be hosting that game. Furthermore, what if there are other rain outs between now and the end of the season? They will need October 1 to schedule those if something else can't work.
My guess is that they will determine if Thursday's game is going to move ahead before they would need to leave Chicago on Wednesday. Right now, the forecast isn't terrible by any stretch.
Quote from: GB Warrior on September 11, 2018, 08:44:52 AM
You mean like when the Brewers had the same thing heading into the all-star break?
We know all teams face it. And the Crew totally ran out of gas at the end of their stretch. I'm not feeling sorry for the Cubs but if I were them I'd leave as much of the team as I could in Chicago and 'sacrifice' that upcoming Washington game with nothing but AAA ballplayers. They do have the distinct advantage of having an expanded roster.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 09:18:16 AM
Every team has stretches of 20 games. The Cubs had one earlier in the year.
My complaint is how MLB is handling this. On Sunday, Pirates/Miami was canceled early in the morning. Cubs/Nats went to the stadium for four hours before canceling it. Pirates/Miami is being made up on October 1. Cubs/Nats is being made up on a mutual off day when a hurricane is scheduled to hit. Why not schedule it for October 1 and avoid the weather?
At least have an alternate plan in place for if a hurricane hits. But so far nothing.
Tall, MLB is always going to take advantage of a mutual off day at this point in the season.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 11, 2018, 09:31:20 AM
MLB wants to schedule the game prior to the end of the season on a mutual day off, especially with the NL Wild Card game scheduled for October 2. It would be especially unfair for the road team should the Cubs be hosting that game. Furthermore, what if there are other rain outs between now and the end of the season? They will need October 1 to schedule those if something else can't work.
My guess is that they will determine if Thursday's game is going to move ahead before they would need to leave Chicago on Wednesday. Right now, the forecast isn't terrible by any stretch.
100% agree. I wonder what Plan B is? Move the game to 10/1 or move the location? I'm guessing the latter as the Cubs are almost out of available dates for other potential rainouts with only 9/20 uncommitted right now. No 'sunny' day with a viable baseball stadium should be sacrificed at this juncture.
I get the mutual off day thing but when a hurricane is suppose to hit? Move it to Miller, Wrigley, Houston, anywhere but DC. The closer it gets to Thursday the more difficult it will be to prepare a stadium crew for a game.
EDIT: Avoid the east coast.
Honest question. If the MLB wanted to move the game to a "neutral" site like Milwaukee, would the hosting team have to agree to it? Could/would Milwakee say no to avoid giving the team they are competing with for the division title a de facto home game?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 11, 2018, 10:11:16 AM
Honest question. If the MLB wanted to move the game to a "neutral" site like Milwaukee, would the hosting team have to agree to it? Could/would Milwakee say no to avoid giving the team they are competing with for the division title a de facto home game?
I'd assume the Brewers would have to agree. They'd have to be able to staff a stadium in a short amount of time. That can't be easy.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 10:03:40 AM
I get the mutual off day thing but when a hurricane is suppose to hit? Move it to Miller, Wrigley, Houston, anywhere but DC. The closer it gets to Thursday the more difficult it will be to prepare a stadium crew for a game.
EDIT: Avoid the east coast.
Again the hurricane will be more than 400 miles away at first pitch.
If the game was rescheduled to 10/1 the Cubs would be talking about how unfair it was that they had to play so close to the Playoffs. If the game meant something (difference between a Wild Card and a Division Title) and they had to throw their ace, lose the game, and then are down their ace while playing a 1 game Wild Card, goodness gracious would Cubs fans go nuts.
The only question would be why would you NOT play the game on Thursday? Well, the answer is the Cubs want to be rested down the stretch. So just call a game when it's sunny. Simple.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 11, 2018, 10:54:44 AM
The only question would be why would you NOT play the game on Thursday?
(https://e3.365dm.com/18/09/750x563/skynews-hurricane-florence_4416842.png?20180910131055)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 11:03:20 AM
(https://e3.365dm.com/18/09/750x563/skynews-hurricane-florence_4416842.png?20180910131055)
And if it does keep that path they will cancel the game before the Cubs leave. You schedule it the first opening both teams have, and if the hurricane projections do not change at all you either pick a new day or new location. I am not sure why you keep going on about this.
Quote from: NWarsh on September 11, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
And if it does keep that path they will cancel the game before the Cubs leave. You schedule it the first opening both teams have, and if the hurricane projections do not change at all you either pick a new day or new location. I am not sure why you keep going on about this.
Plus that map looks a little out of date. I live in the Tidewater area of Virginia, and the latest maps show strong winds starting to hit here Thursday and really pick up Friday.
Quote from: NWarsh on September 11, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
And if it does keep that path they will cancel the game before the Cubs leave. You schedule it the first opening both teams have, and if the hurricane projections do not change at all you either pick a new day or new location. I am not sure why you keep going on about this.
Because he believes that MLB has some kind of vendetta against his beloved Cubs. Sultan's right. It'll probably be sunny for the first pitch that afternoon. And they could always bump it to a 10a start and buy even a few more hours. The Nats ownership has the right to that gate and there's undoubtedly a Plan B already contemplated. Cubs nation should simply deal with it. Just like visitors have to deal with that HS level visiting clubhouse at Wrigley with a 36 man September roster. Oh, the horror.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 11, 2018, 11:34:48 AM
Because he believes that MLB has some kind of vendetta against his beloved Cubs.
Nice try.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 09, 2018, 06:55:09 PM
I don't think MLB would screw the Cubs. It's in their best interest to have them and their market in the playoffs.
I do think they handled this weekend poorly though.
Quote from: NWarsh on September 11, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
I am not sure why you keep going on about this.
Are you new to this thread? Everything here is beaten to death.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 11:39:26 AM
Are you new to this thread? Everything here is beaten to death.
No, I am well aware of that. I just figured that you have a choice to either be a part of the the reason for that or not, why pick being part of the problem?
Forgive me if I'm missing something, but this seems a lot more straightforward than some are making it out to be.
Plan A: play the game in D.C. The Nats have the right to that home game revenue. Keep an eye on the weather, and if you can get it in great, if not move to plan B.
Plan B: Move the game. No way the Brewers would sign off on giving the cubs an extra home game. Why not Toronto? The have a roof. They're significantly closer to D.C. than Milwaukee is for any dedicated Nats fans. The Jays are in Boston that day which should be far enough north to avoid the weather, or even if it is rained out you could move that game to Oct 1, since neither Toronto or Boston will be in the WC game and both teams already know their fate. Also, there would be plenty of time for field prep since the Jays played at home on the 9th and aren't back until the 20th.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 11, 2018, 11:45:34 AM
Forgive me if I'm missing something, but this seems a lot more straightforward than some are making it out to be.
Plan A: play the game in D.C. The Nats have the right to that home game revenue. Keep an eye on the weather, and if you can get it in great, if not move to plan B.
Plan B: Move the game. No way the Brewers would sign off on giving the cubs an extra home game. Why not Toronto? The have a roof. They're significantly closer to D.C. than Milwaukee is for any dedicated Nats fans. The Jays are in Boston that day which should be far enough north to avoid the weather, or even if it is rained out you could move that game to Oct 1, since neither Toronto or Boston will be in the WC game and both teams already know their fate. Also, there would be plenty of time for field prep since the Jays played at home on the 9th and aren't back until the 20th.
Nope, not missing anything. That is what most here are saying, but for some reason there are some Cub fans (maybe only 1 fan) saying MLB messed this up by even rescheduling it Thursday and they should have scheduled it for 10/1 right away.
Quote from: NWarsh on September 11, 2018, 11:43:24 AM
No, I am well aware of that. I just figured that you have a choice to either be a part of the the reason for that or not, why pick being part of the problem?
This is a great point actually. I need to leave here. Brewers fans bring out the worst in me.
See you in basketball season a-holes haha!
Baseball will divide. Basketball will unite.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
This is a great point actually. I need to leave here. Brewers fans bring out the worst in me.
See you in basketball season a-holes haha!
Baseball will divide. Basketball will unite.
Peace.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 11, 2018, 11:45:34 AM
Forgive me if I'm missing something, but this seems a lot more straightforward than some are making it out to be.
Plan A: play the game in D.C. The Nats have the right to that home game revenue. Keep an eye on the weather, and if you can get it in great, if not move to plan B.
Plan B: Move the game. No way the Brewers would sign off on giving the Cubs an extra home game. Why not Toronto? The have a roof. They're significantly closer to D.C. than Milwaukee is for any dedicated Nats fans. The Jays are in Boston that day which should be far enough north to avoid the weather, or even if it is rained out you could move that game to Oct 1, since neither Toronto or Boston will be in the WC game and both teams already know their fate. Also, there would be plenty of time for field prep since the Jays played at home on the 9th and aren't back until the 20th.
If the Brewers don't agree with that, the MLB could move the game to Wrigley like what happened with the Brewers last year when they got 3 extra home games.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 11, 2018, 12:18:24 PM
If the Brewers don't agree with that, the MLB could move the game to Wrigley like what happened with the Brewers last year when they got 3 extra home games.
Given their history of sun-outs I'm not sure moving it from one potential delay to another is in the best interest of the MLB.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 11, 2018, 12:19:48 PM
Given their history of sun-outs I'm not sure moving it from one potential delay to another is in the best interest of the MLB.
They still won the make up game....I think you can give it a rest (coming from a Brewers fan)
Also, this is why you wait to see what the weather does before actually deciding to cancel something.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 11, 2018, 12:18:24 PM
If the Brewers don't agree with that, the MLB could move the game to Wrigley like what happened with the Brewers last year when they got 3 extra home games.
I guess that's an option, but if you're going to move the game, wouldn't it make sense to ask Toronto first? Why would they say no? Only reason I can think of is if their series in Boston is expected to get rained out, and they have to move it back to Toronto.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
This is a great point actually. I need to leave here. Brewers fans bring out the worst in me.
See you in basketball season a-holes haha!
Baseball will divide. Basketball will unite.
The banter is so much better and enjoyable when both teams are good versus the Battle for the Basement years. I mean the pity clap for the White Sox fans maybe lasts 10 seconds. Quick Rick lasts longer.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
This is a great point actually. I need to leave here. Brewers fans bring out the worst in me.
See you in basketball season a-holes haha!
Baseball will divide. Basketball will unite.
No reason to leave. There's only one incorrigible Crew fan that I know of! :)
Quote from: Jockey on September 10, 2018, 11:40:57 PM
;D ;D - there's a reason you didn't understand. I meant to quote Burrow and my response was meant for him.
Yessir. All of the rainouts this past weekend, plus the hurricane, plus all of the standard end of season lineup nonsense is making setting playoff lineups in a weekly league tougher than any season i can remember.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on September 11, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
This is a great point actually. I need to leave here. Brewers fans bring out the worst in me.
See you in basketball season a-holes haha!
Baseball will divide. Basketball will unite.
Sphincter Tightening Exhibit A right here, guys
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 11, 2018, 01:22:02 PM
Sphincter Tightening Exhibit A right here, guys
Yup. Cubs fans thought they were running away with this division. All of a sudden the Brewers are on a roll, the Cubs are struggling, and suddenly the Cubs fans need to run and hide because Brewers fans bring the worst out in them.
Rest assured, if the Brewers are eliminated from Postseason play before the Cubs are (something I expect), Cubs fans will come running back to this thread in flocks.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 11, 2018, 01:32:10 PM
Yup. Cubs fans thought they were running away with this division. All of a sudden the Brewers are on a roll, the Cubs are struggling, and suddenly the Cubs fans need to run and hide because Brewers fans bring the worst out in them.
Rest assured, if the Brewers are eliminated from Postseason play before the Cubs are (something I expect), Cubs fans will come running back to this thread in flocks.
We have given up as we know the Brewers recovery times are far superior due to their masking techniques.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 11, 2018, 02:18:50 PM
We have given up as we know the Brewers recovery times are far superior due to their masking techniques.
I hope so.
I had forgotten that Cubs players don't cheat.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 11, 2018, 02:23:11 PM
I hope so.
I had forgotten that Cubs players don't cheat.
A bit off topic, but did anyone see "Icarus"? the documentary on drug masking including but not exclusive to the Russians. Well worth seeing.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 11, 2018, 12:23:49 PM
I guess that's an option, but if you're going to move the game, wouldn't it make sense to ask Toronto first? Why would they say no? Only reason I can think of is if their series in Boston is expected to get rained out, and they have to move it back to Toronto.
I would suspect that international concerns preclude Toronto from being an option for relocated games.
For example, it's got to be a logistical nightmare for the traveling secretaries to put something like this together on a moment's notice considering that MLB teams aren't going through your standard immigration/customs line at Pearson... whatever paperwork needs to be filed, tax forms need to be changed, etc. On top of that, it's possible that some players may not have the right Canadian visa, especially two NL teams who weren't scheduled to play in Toronto all year, not to mention now having expanded September rosters. Additionally, since their stadium is downtown, it's very possible that any event taking place at the Rogers Centre requires a permit approved by the City/Province, and even emergency permits usually have some sort of waiting or public notice period.
Granted, any and all of these issues could probably be worked out a few days in advance, but the decision to relocate a game isn't going to be made until the last possible minute.
The other factor is $$$.... one of the primary reasons Milwaukee has hosted relocated games on several occasions is because they have not only proven they can quickly get the logistics (stadium personnel, concessions, law enforcement, etc.) in place but also an ability to draw a decent, though greatly reduced, crowd on short notice as well. If a team is going to give up their home gate, getting something is certainly better than nothing, whether MLB is subsidizing the lost revenue or not. All of us in Milwaukee and Chicago are a bit closer to MLB relocations, so we might get the impression that this is a commonplace consideration, when the fact of the matter is much more likely that teams and MLB are going to do everything they can to avoid relocating a game at all reasonable costs.
Quote from: Benny B on September 11, 2018, 03:05:55 PM
I would suspect that international concerns preclude Toronto from being an option for relocated games.
For example, it's got to be a logistical nightmare for the traveling secretaries to put something like this together on a moment's notice considering that MLB teams aren't going through your standard immigration/customs line at Pearson... whatever paperwork needs to be filed, tax forms need to be changed, etc. On top of that, it's possible that some players may not have the right Canadian visa, especially two NL teams who weren't scheduled to play in Toronto all year, not to mention now having expanded September rosters. Additionally, since their stadium is downtown, it's very possible that any event taking place at the Rogers Centre requires a permit approved by the City/Province, and even emergency permits usually have some sort of waiting or public notice period.
Granted, any and all of these issues could probably be worked out a few days in advance, but the decision to relocate a game isn't going to be made until the last possible minute.
The other factor is $$$.... one of the primary reasons Milwaukee has hosted relocated games on several occasions is because they have not only proven they can quickly get the logistics (stadium personnel, concessions, law enforcement, etc.) in place but also an ability to draw a decent, though greatly reduced, crowd on short notice as well. If a team is going to give up their home gate, getting something is certainly better than nothing, whether MLB is subsidizing the lost revenue or not. All of us in Milwaukee and Chicago are a bit closer to MLB relocations, so we might get the impression that this is a commonplace consideration, when the fact of the matter is much more likely that teams and MLB are going to do everything they can to avoid relocating a game at all reasonable costs.
And Miller Park has a roof. Probably the biggest reason, guaranteed to play the game.
Helluva outing by Q.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 12, 2018, 06:04:31 AM
Helluva outing by Q.
I haven't seen a player single-handedly take on, and dominate another team like that, since Steve Rogers. Inevitably, he'll be frozen, as was the case in mid-August, only to thaw and return to form better than before.
Honestly, at this juncture the Brewers only chance at getting some opening against him seems to be some manner of civil unrest, i.e. a power struggle, within the Cubs clubhouse that divides, and hopefully, brings down the entire team just long enough for the Crew to seize that window and obliterate the opposition, because if Quintana re-emerges in a post-season beard, I don't know how anything less than impending doom can be on the menu.
Ugh. According to Fangraphs, Yoan Moncada has been called out 49 times on a strike three call which was out of the zone. This is by far first in the majors. Next is Matt Chapman and Mike Trout at 36.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 11, 2018, 08:12:45 AM
Because he has a better slugging percentage than Cain by 120 points and a better OPS by about 100. Right now he tops the NL in offensive WAR.
Cain has been great, but Yelich has been more powerful without sacrificing batting average.
You ignore defense then for MVP? Not trying to argue, generally curious.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 12, 2018, 07:21:12 PM
You ignore defense then for MVP? Not trying to argue, generally curious.
Well yeah I guess I do. Cain is clearly a better defender but Yelich isn't bad.
Greatest Slider of All Time just nabbed stealing 2nd. ;D ;D
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 10, 2018, 12:30:54 PM
.
Ronald Acuna, in the 2nd half, is leading the NL in HRs, OPS, and fWAR. Not that he will win the MVP, because of limited plate appearances, but wow. Between he and Soto, that is two pretty spectacular rookie seasons.
Hader is...good.
The Grandy Man can.
And there they go to the exits in Miller Park South!
Fly that "L" boys, fly that beautiful "L".
This is just great.
https://www.mlb.com/cut4/willians-astudillo-is-tired-after-first-to-home-run/c-294436502
Brewers had to win this series to have any hope of winning the division. They accomplished that mission. Next couple weeks should be fun!
Counsell really rubbed that off day all up in Maddon's face. That Thursday off day enabled Him to play a deal dacto pitching rotation, and almost everyone should be available Friday.
This.
Quote from: GB Warrior on September 12, 2018, 11:46:38 PM
Counsell really rubbed that off day all up in Maddon's face. That Thursday off day enabled Him to play a deal dacto pitching rotation, and almost everyone should be available Friday.
I'd love Couns' take on the pitching rotation last night. We were at a MU function so I didn't see until the 7th but it seems he wanted his top 5-6 guys to all get an inning or so in order to stay super sharp. After getting healthy, the pen has again become a source of strength. Hader is simply unbelievable.
So has anyone heard if the Cubs made it safely to Washington? I mean after all the weather reports I read here, I'm assuming they had to fly into the eyewall like one of those hurricane hunters.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 13, 2018, 09:48:16 AM
So has anyone heard if the Cubs made it safely to Washington? I mean after all the weather reports I read here, I'm assuming they had to fly into the eyewall like one of those hurricane hunters.
Plus, they probably won't be able to stay awake after playing 73 games without an off day.
Quote from: Jockey on September 13, 2018, 09:50:56 AM
Plus, they probably won't be able to stay awake after playing 73 games without an off day.
Truly a shame the MLB is forcing them to play 162 games this year.
;D All the Cubs fans have run for the hills. Of course they will be back out in force gloating next time they win a couple games.
I think that's the thing. My perception is that too many of them think of their club like it's the Yankees or something when the reality is that they have been an absolute bottom feeder (especially for a large market team) for most of their history. I get that they're very good to great now. But for almost all of the last 120 years that hasn't been true. Which might be why they hate the Cardinals so much. Talk about a successful midwest franchise.
Seems like Crew fans understand where our boys are in the MLB pecking order. And we learn to appreciate the modest success we occasionally enjoy. Let's hope we surpass expectations this year. A NL Pennant is absolutely not beyond all hope.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 13, 2018, 11:22:56 AM
Seems like Crew fans understand where our boys are in the MLB pecking order. And we learn to appreciate the modest success we occasionally enjoy. Let's hope we surpass expectations this year.
Agree with this. I'm not getting my hopes up about the Crew winning the Central, but I'm enjoying the hell out of this late push. Obviously .727 ball isn't sustainable, and I think the Cubs will figure it out, like good teams tend to do.
So the Brewers have flirted with the post season in recent history, what should be a satisfactory result as fans based on where we are now. If they end up with the WC and lose a single game, I don't hold it against them. I'm cautiously optimistic about being competitive in the division series but i dont think we can discount that 90% of this team has little to no playoff experience which matters I think.
All that to say I think winning the divisional series is the ceiling for this team right now and I'm ok with it.
Quote from: mannion03eng on September 13, 2018, 11:35:02 AM
So the Brewers have flirted with the post season in recent history, what should be a satisfactory result as fans based on where we are now. If they end up with the WC and lose a single game, I don't hold it against them. I'm cautiously optimistic about being competitive in the division series but i dont think we can discount that 90% of this team has little to no playoff experience which matters I think.
All that to say I think winning the divisional series is the ceiling for this team right now and I'm ok with it.
This team has been to the playoffs four times in my 50 year old lifetime. And I'm pretty fair weather when it comes to baseball. So whatever they do once they get there (if they get there) is fine by me.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 13, 2018, 11:22:56 AM
;D All the Cubs fans have run for the hills. Of course they will be back out in force gloating next time they win a couple games.
I think that's the thing. My perception is that too many of them think of their club like it's the Yankees or something when the reality is that they have been an absolute bottom feeder (especially for a large market team) for most of their history. I get that they're very good to great now. But for almost all of the last 120 years that hasn't been true. Which might be why they hate the Cardinals so much. Talk about a successful midwest franchise.
Seems like Crew fans understand where our boys are in the MLB pecking order. And we learn to appreciate the modest success we occasionally enjoy. Let's hope we surpass expectations this year. A NL Pennant is absolutely not beyond all hope.
This. The way that Cub fans embraced the whole "lovable loser" title for so long, then to completely do a 180 when they get real good real quick (95+ loss team as recently as 2013) rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from: mannion03eng on September 13, 2018, 11:35:02 AM
So the Brewers have flirted with the post season in recent history, what should be a satisfactory result as fans based on where we are now. If they end up with the WC and lose a single game, I don't hold it against them. I'm cautiously optimistic about being competitive in the division series but i dont think we can discount that 90% of this team has little to no playoff experience which matters I think.
All that to say I think winning the divisional series is the ceiling for this team right now and I'm ok with it.
I agree with you. They are in year #2 of rebuilding and well ahead of schedule. Now I DO expect them to finish strong these last couple of weeks and make the playoffs. Failing to qualify at this juncture would be a major disappointment. Need to crack this Pirate jinx they've experienced this year. I'm confident Couns will have them ready for the weekend.
Quote from: mannion03eng on September 13, 2018, 11:35:02 AM
So the Brewers have flirted with the post season in recent history, what should be a satisfactory result as fans based on where we are now. If they end up with the WC and lose a single game, I don't hold it against them. I'm cautiously optimistic about being competitive in the division series but i dont think we can discount that 90% of this team has little to no playoff experience which matters I think.
All that to say I think winning the divisional series is the ceiling for this team right now and I'm ok with it.
As long as they make the postseason this year, I'll be happy (although if they sputter to playing the WC game on the road I'll be disappointed based on where they are right now). It shows improvement from last year and gives them at least a little postseason experience. Depending on what they do this October will determine my expectations for next year and beyond.
I think the fact that we didn't go all in on a trade is my reasoning for tempered expectations. In 2011 it was make it to the WS or bust.
Quote from: mannion03eng on September 13, 2018, 11:35:02 AM
So the Brewers have flirted with the post season in recent history, what should be a satisfactory result as fans based on where we are now. If they end up with the WC and lose a single game, I don't hold it against them. I'm cautiously optimistic about being competitive in the division series but i dont think we can discount that 90% of this team has little to no playoff experience which matters I think.
All that to say I think winning the divisional series is the ceiling for this team right now and I'm ok with it.
I agree with the WC scenario... a loss would be devastating, but the sentiment would be short-lived; otherwise, I'm good with any other outcome should they win the WC.
If the Brewers win the Central
and have home field in the CS, anything short of a WS appearance would evoke feelings of a lost (seemingly) once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that's going to linger for quite a while, or at least until around the 2019 Opening Day (at which point I'll be too stoked on another once-in-a-lifetime during my upcoming weekend in Minneapolis to care about baseball).
Otherwise, I will be satisfied with an CS appearance with an NL Central title scenario where they don't have home field.
Summary: After WC round, expectations are considered met so long as they don't lose with home field.
Quote from: mannion03eng on September 13, 2018, 11:35:02 AM
So the Brewers have flirted with the post season in recent history, what should be a satisfactory result as fans based on where we are now. If they end up with the WC and lose a single game, I don't hold it against them. I'm cautiously optimistic about being competitive in the division series but i dont think we can discount that 90% of this team has little to no playoff experience which matters I think.
All that to say I think winning the divisional series is the ceiling for this team right now and I'm ok with it.
I think the ceiling is winning the World Series, but I don't think that will happen. The teams in the AL are just too strong, and we would be the road team in every matchup except Cleveland, who owned us this year.
In the NL playoffs, I think we have a shot against any of the other teams. We're 17-10 against other playoff teams in the East and West, and we have played our division rivals (Cubs 8-11, Cardinals 8-8) pretty even, especially recently. I especially like our chances if we get home field by winning the division.
That said, I expect we will host the WC game and then face the Cubs. Both of those are crap-shoots. I'll be happy if we get past the WC game and play the Cubs tough.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 13, 2018, 11:43:18 AM
This. The way that Cub fans embraced the whole "lovable loser" title for so long, then to completely do a 180 when they get real good real quick (95+ loss team as recently as 2013) rubs me the wrong way.
One of the largest cities in the US produces a sports team that has great success and you're surprised there are bandwagon fans?
I'd also say that some of that is attributable to fans who did stick around during the "lovable" seasons now feeling they are entitled to maximizing their team's success (in regards to their fandom)
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 13, 2018, 01:59:21 PM
One of the largest cities in the US produces a sports team that has great success and you're surprised there are bandwagon fans?
I'd also say that some of that is attributable to fans who did stick around during the "lovable" seasons now feeling they are entitled to maximizing their team's success (in regards to their fandom)
It's more of the attitude that they've had. No other team in the history of sports embraced the "lovable losers" idea more than the cubs. No sane human can honestly say that the result of a baseball game was effected by whether or not a goat was allowed in the stands, or that a cat ran on the field. Yet those stories got played up to no end. It's normal for a team to adopt something weird like that for a year (Cardinals had the playoff squirrel one year, Yankees had the thumbs down, even the Brewers advertised Hank the dog extremely hard for a year). Other teams lets stuff like that die out, but the cubs played it up for decades. Even 2003 ended up being more about how the baseball gods let Bartman blow the series, even though that he had nothing to do with game 7, and only marginally effected 6. It became less about "how can we improve and actually win" and more about "how is some supernatural force going to screw us over this year". Recently when they got really good, really quickly and realized that they were legitimate contenders, the whole lovable losers mantra was immediately dropped for "we're the best thing since sliced bread". It's a good thing that they dropped "LL's", but as soon as they did, the level of arrogance skyrocketed.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 13, 2018, 11:22:56 AM
;D All the Cubs fans have run for the hills. Of course they will be back out in force gloating next time they win a couple games.
I think that's the thing. My perception is that too many of them think of their club like it's the Yankees or something when the reality is that they have been an absolute bottom feeder (especially for a large market team) for most of their history. I get that they're very good to great now. But for almost all of the last 120 years that hasn't been true. Which might be why they hate the Cardinals so much. Talk about a successful midwest franchise.
Seems like Crew fans understand where our boys are in the MLB pecking order. And we learn to appreciate the modest success we occasionally enjoy. Let's hope we surpass expectations this year. A NL Pennant is absolutely not beyond all hope.
It wasn't too long ago that many Brewers posters here put the proverbially fork into own their team.
#perspective
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 13, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
It's more of the attitude that they've had. No other team in the history of sports embraced the "lovable losers" idea more than the cubs. No sane human can honestly say that the result of a baseball game was effected by whether or not a goat was allowed in the stands, or that a cat ran on the field. Yet those stories got played up to no end. It's normal for a team to adopt something weird like that for a year (Cardinals had the playoff squirrel one year, Yankees had the thumbs down, even the Brewers advertised Hank the dog extremely hard for a year). Other teams lets stuff like that die out, but the cubs played it up for decades. Even 2003 ended up being more about how the baseball gods let Bartman blow the series, even though that he had nothing to do with game 7, and only marginally effected 6. It became less about "how can we improve and actually win" and more about "how is some supernatural force going to screw us over this year". Recently when they got really good, really quickly and realized that they were legitimate contenders, the whole lovable losers mantra was immediately dropped for "we're the best thing since sliced bread". It's a good thing that they dropped "LL's", but as soon as they did, the level of arrogance skyrocketed.
What's the difference between "embracing the lovable losers idea" vs. not being a fair-weather fan vs. being supportive but pessimistic?
Also, who was actually pushing the goat and the cat? The fans or the people who needed to fill columns, airtime, etc.?
Quote from: drewm88 on September 13, 2018, 02:47:53 PM
What's the difference between "embracing the lovable losers idea" vs. not being a fair-weather fan vs. being supportive but pessimistic?
In other words, a Cubs fan vs. a Marquette fan vs. a Brewer/Badger/Packer fan?
Quote from: drewm88 on September 13, 2018, 02:47:53 PM
What's the difference between "embracing the lovable losers idea" vs. not being a fair-weather fan vs. being supportive but pessimistic?
Also, who was actually pushing the goat and the cat? The fans or the people who needed to fill columns, airtime, etc.?
Would those stories have continued to get written if the cubs fans didn't eat it all up? Hank was pushed incredibly hard for the Brewers for a year (bobblehead, mascot, t-shirts, the whole nine yards), and its a story that could still be getting pushed, but the fanbase kinda got over it. Its still a cool story, but its not being forced down peoples throat.
Why do these stories never focus on the players? There always seem to be extenuating circumstances working against the cubs (hurricane). If Moises Alou admitted to peeing on his hands earlier would the cubs have won in 2003? That story is told so much less than how Bartman was the epitome of evil (exaggerating obviously).
I like the Brewers team. I think the GM has done a very nice job putting a lot of pieces together.
Absolutely could see them in the WS, especially if they pull out a division title.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 13, 2018, 03:08:19 PM
Would those stories have continued to get written if the cubs fans didn't eat it all up? Hank was pushed incredibly hard for the Brewers for a year (bobblehead, mascot, t-shirts, the whole nine yards), and its a story that could still be getting pushed, but the fanbase kinda got over it. Its still a cool story, but its not being forced down peoples throat.
Why do these stories never focus on the players? There always seem to be extenuating circumstances working against the cubs (hurricane). If Moises Alou admitted to peeing on his hands earlier would the cubs have won in 2003? That story is told so much less than how Bartman was the epitome of evil (exaggerating obviously).
Anyone that thinks that Hank just walked into the complex in Maryville and became the team dog is high. Maryville is a sh!thole and perfectly groomed, trained dogs don't just wander in off the street.
Sidenote, flew on a Southwest flight from MKE to PHX year 2(?) of the Hank-show, Hank had the first row seat. No way in hell that was a stray.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 13, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
No sane human can honestly say that the result of a baseball game was effected by whether or not a goat was allowed in the stands, or that a cat ran on the field. Yet those stories got played up to no end.
It became less about "how can we improve and actually win" and more about "how is some supernatural force going to screw us over this year". Recently when they got really good, really quickly and realized that they were legitimate contenders, the whole lovable losers mantra was immediately dropped for "we're the best thing since sliced bread". It's a good thing that they dropped "LL's", but as soon as they did, the level of arrogance skyrocketed.
I see you don't follow the Red Sox.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 13, 2018, 03:08:19 PM
If Moises Alou admitted to peeing on his hands earlier would the cubs have won in 2003? That story is told so much less than how Bartman was the epitome of evil (exaggerating obviously).
Ah yes, Moises "Moist Hands" Alou. Bizarre, to put it mildly.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 13, 2018, 04:00:00 PM
Anyone that thinks that Hank just walked into the complex in Maryville and became the team dog is high. Maryville is a sh!thole and perfectly groomed, trained dogs don't just wander in off the street.
Sidenote, flew on a Southwest flight from MKE to PHX year 2(?) of the Hank-show, Hank had the first row seat. No way in hell that was a stray.
So you mean that if Hank was a stray that had been hit by a car, the story would be more believable.
https://barkpost.com/meet-hank-the-milwaukee-brewers-new-mascot/
"Hank was a stray wandering around the Brewers Spring Training facilities when he was found by third base coach Ed Seder. Hank had tire marks on his fur and was quite disheveled."
The biggest story about Hank after that first year, was about suspicions that the Brewers had pulled a bait and switch.
https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2016/03/03/hank-dog-brewers-mascot-dead-or-alive-explainer
Your sidenote may support this conspiracy theory, but regardless, I don't think Brewer fans are going to be talking about Hank years, and years into the future.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24665452/anthony-rizzo-chicago-cubs-wears-uniform-overnight-flight-joke-makeup-game-vs-washington-nationals
Aww. Poor Anthony.
Jesus the Cubs like to whine lol. I cannot fathom how the MLB would put two teams in such danger. I mean, come on, look at the conditions they're playing in right now!
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 13, 2018, 05:15:45 PM
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24665452/anthony-rizzo-chicago-cubs-wears-uniform-overnight-flight-joke-makeup-game-vs-washington-nationals
Aww. Poor Anthony.
Jesus the Cubs like to whine lol. I cannot fathom how the MLB would put two teams in such danger. I mean, come on, look at the conditions they're playing in right now!
Whining? Looks like they are makin lemonade out of lemons. Hardly whining. Humor is a good thing.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 13, 2018, 04:00:00 PM
Anyone that thinks that Hank just walked into the complex in Maryville and became the team dog is high. Maryville is a sh!thole and perfectly groomed, trained dogs don't just wander in off the street.
Sidenote, flew on a Southwest flight from MKE to PHX year 2(?) of the Hank-show, Hank had the first row seat. No way in hell that was a stray.
Probably had a blue medical pre-board pass, aina?
Wonderful clinic on how not to play effective defense by the Nats in the 10th.
Well, the Cubs won their stupid rainout make-up, and the Brewers won theirs last year. Can we put that bs to bed now that we're even?
Strop pulls a hammy when Joe let's him bat and hits into a DP. Let's hope Morrow is back soon.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkUg1M7ilOX1Nps77Rh6pF8lDIXZXrk7xe5jvSXnB510rtuVJd)
(https://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/Cards/Baseball/12948/12948-2023433Fr.jpg)
Quote from: SaveNICO238 on September 13, 2018, 06:54:16 PM
Well, the Cubs won their stupid rainout make-up, and the Brewers won theirs last year. Can we put that bs to bed now that we're even?
Not until I get 3 extra home games during a pennant race ;D
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 13, 2018, 08:25:30 PM
Not until I get 3 extra home games during a pennant race ;D
You get 9 every year, or at least it feels that way sometimes.
Quote from: nicoglow on September 13, 2018, 11:22:56 AM
;D All the Cubs fans have run for the hills. Of course they will be back out in force gloating next time they win a couple games.
I think that's the thing. My perception is that too many of them think of their club like it's the Yankees or something when the reality is that they have been an absolute bottom feeder (especially for a large market team) for most of their history. I get that they're very good to great now. But for almost all of the last 120 years that hasn't been true. Which might be why they hate the Cardinals so much. Talk about a successful midwest franchise.
Seems like Crew fans understand where our boys are in the MLB pecking order. And we learn to appreciate the modest success we occasionally enjoy. Let's hope we surpass expectations this year. A NL Pennant is absolutely not beyond all hope.
Bingo.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 13, 2018, 06:59:52 PM
Strop pulls a hammy when Joe let's him bat and hits into a DP. Let's hope Morrow is back soon.
Strop to miss "several weeks".
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 13, 2018, 09:45:26 PM
Strop to miss "several weeks".
Relief pitching is about to suck for the Cubs. CEJ has been terrible the last couple of weeks.
Joe Mauer thinking about retiring after the season.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24657925/joe-mauer-need-sit-think-retirement-offseason
Talk about a guy who had the rabbit's foot -- had several very good seasons and then his career season exactly when he was heading into free agency.
Twins HAD to keep him -- local kid made good, face of the franchise, helped small-market team win, etc.
But that turned out to be one of the worst contracts of the generation. He turned into a total Punch-and-Judy hitter who couldn't even play catcher any more -- a $184 million version of Doug Mientkiewicz (but Mauer wasn't as good a fielder).
Shame, because he looked like a future HoFer the first half of his career.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on September 13, 2018, 09:30:01 PM
Bingo.
Actually, It's just poor taste to trash talk the 2nd place team in one of their best seasons (oops). But carry on...
Seriously though, as a cubs fan, I'm happy for the brewers. And I'd guess most cubs fans on this particular forum are in the same boat (with the Milwaukee connection). Now, I hope it's not at the cubs expense, but if it is so be it...
But I do find it amusing how people over analyze these late season games. It's a long season, and things generally work towards there averages. Those still have some room to change these last couple weeks (i.e. the cubs and brewers could flip, even a couple times), but it's more likely that the results are about the same as now by the end of the season.
The idea that Strop is out "weeks" already, hours after the injury is interesting. Nobody has any idea how long he will be out. Could feel fine this morning.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 14, 2018, 06:30:45 AM
The idea that Strop is out "weeks" already, hours after the injury is interesting. Nobody has any idea how long he will be out. Could feel fine this morning.
Sometimes when you get injured you know it's going to be a multi-week thing, even before you have the professional diagnosis based on all the scans and tests you may need to make it official and know exactly what it is.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 14, 2018, 12:37:11 AM
Actually, It's just poor taste to trash talk the 2nd place team in one of their best seasons (oops). But carry on...
Seriously though, as a cubs fan, I'm happy for the brewers. And I'd guess most cubs fans on this particular forum are in the same boat (with the Milwaukee connection). Now, I hope it's not at the cubs expense, but if it is so be it...
But I do find it amusing how people over analyze these late season games. It's a long season, and things generally work towards there averages. Those still have some room to change these last couple weeks (i.e. the cubs and brewers could flip, even a couple times), but it's more likely that the results are about the same as now by the end of the season.
I'm not a Brewers fan, but I definitely know what you're talking about with the "connection."
I was at Marquette during the most fun time in the history of the franchise -- the Bambi's Bombers/Harvey's Wallbangers Era.
Molitor, Yount, Sixto, Gorman, Ogilvie, Cooper, Money, Bando, Gantner, Simmons ... man, could those teams hit! They'd win games 11-9, and Bernie Brewer was a busy boy -- even a better "slider" than Baez!
They actually had some pretty good pitching, too -- Caldwell, Haas, Vuke, McClure, Rollie, etc.
Lots of crazy characters to keep things interesting, as well, plus both Bambi and Harvey were very likable.
Depending on who they were playing, we would do one of two things:
1. Tailgate for hours, often not making it into the ballpark until the second inning (a few times, I confess, we never made it in at all).
2. Tailgate for awhile but then go inside in time for batting practice. Sit in the RF bleachers ($2.50) and chase the HR shots. I especially liked this option when the Yankees were in town because of all their LH pull hitters: Reggie, Nettles, Gamble, Chambliss, etc. Many, many BP souvenirs over the years.
Very good memories of this time, obviously. I was a Yankee fan back then, but I've been "agnostic" for years -- just enjoy good baseball.
Both the Brewers and the Cubs provide that quite often.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 13, 2018, 04:09:33 PM
I see you don't follow the Red Sox.
You are way off. Red Sox fans are far from arrogant and still fully expect to find a way to lose every year. It is so ingrained that the three championships haven't overcome it. The Sox blew a 9 game lead in September as recently as 2011 and nobody was surprised (and lost on the last night when Papelbon blew a save against Baltimore and the Yankees gave up a 7 run lead in the 8th inning to the Rays.
Further, the Red Sox were not lovable losers. They were good and in contention just about every year and always found a way to blow it. The Cubs 1969 season would not make the Red Sox top 10 list of blown chances since 1967. 2003 would have, of course.
FWIW, the Astros have been injured a lot this year, but they are getting healthy now, and for my money are the best team and the favorites to win it. Beyond them, the second best team in the AL right now is the Oakland A's. As strange as it may seem given the way the Yankees have tortured the Red Sox, I'd rather see the Yankees beat the A's than the other way around. The Indians are totally a product of their terrible division. They have a losing record when not playing AL Central teams. I would say they are the 6th best team in the AL, with Tampa Bay being the non-playoff team that is better than them.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 13, 2018, 10:25:48 PM
Relief pitching is about to suck for the Cubs. CEJ has been terrible the last couple of weeks.
I have never been more certain of what was going to happen in a Cubs game this year than I was that Edwards would give up the lead when he came in yesterday.
There should be a minimum 6 run lead for him to be allowed to pitch until he can consistently throw strikes. Then again, with the Cubs offense lately that might shelve him for the season.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 14, 2018, 06:30:45 AM
The idea that Strop is out "weeks" already, hours after the injury is interesting. Nobody has any idea how long he will be out. Could feel fine this morning.
You're right. I made it up.
Quote from: CTWarrior on September 14, 2018, 09:02:22 AM
Red Sox fans are far from arrogant and still fully expect to find a way to lose every year.
I can't wait to meet those ones. I wonder if they know all the arrogant Red Sox fans in my life.
My experience with Red Sox fans matches up with what CTWarrior is saying. Though one thing that all the Red Sox fans I personally know do that drives me crazy is complain about the Yankees' payroll....even though they have been top 5 in payroll forever...and passed the Yankees in 2017.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 14, 2018, 08:19:38 AM
Sometimes when you get injured you know it's going to be a multi-week thing, even before you have the professional diagnosis based on all the scans and tests you may need to make it official and know exactly what it is.
Thanks for injury splaining to a physical therapist. He probably will be out weeks, he could come back next week. Acute injuries are really hard to predict, specifically minutes right after they happen. Have we heard definitely that Rodgers will play this week? He probably doesn't know yet.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 14, 2018, 12:58:25 PM
Thanks for injury splaining to a physical therapist. He probably will be out weeks, he could come back next week. Acute injuries are really hard to predict, specifically minutes right after they happen. Have we heard definitely that Rodgers will play this week? He probably doesn't know yet.
I understand you're smarter than me. You've made it clear most times injuries are brought up.
I'm guessing that if the Cubs are saying he's out multiple weeks, well, they're a little closer to the situation than you are.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 14, 2018, 12:58:25 PM
Thanks for injury splaining to a physical therapist. He probably will be out weeks, he could come back next week. Acute injuries are really hard to predict, specifically minutes right after they happen. Have we heard definitely that Rodgers will play this week? He probably doesn't know yet.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/KT6Ex6cWcsL2E/100.webp)
Quote from: CTWarrior on September 14, 2018, 09:02:22 AM
FWIW, the Astros have been injured a lot this year, but they are getting healthy now, and for my money are the best team and the favorites to win it. Beyond them, the second best team in the AL right now is the Oakland A's. As strange as it may seem given the way the Yankees have tortured the Red Sox, I'd rather see the Yankees beat the A's than the other way around. The Indians are totally a product of their terrible division. They have a losing record when not playing AL Central teams. I would say they are the 6th best team in the AL, with Tampa Bay being the non-playoff team that is better than them.
I agree on the AL ranking.
As for my Astros.....Last year we needed career bests from Altuve, Springer, Correa and Marwin Gonzalez. Pitching was patchwork until the stretch trade for Verlander. Our relievers were patchwork incl converted starters.Maybe we overacheived...2018 is truly a strong, good team though.
Now...3 all star starters ....Verlander Cole Morton Kuechel ....no 1s on most teams. Relievers with Pressley Osuna Mchugh Harris Sipp and Rondon have best ERA of all relief corps. Offense.....Only Bregman has had a career year....with all the others back from injury we are just rounding our hitting into form. One or two call ups wont even make our 25 man squad for playoffs but are likely good enough to start for most teams. We are about 1.5 -2 times better than 2017...other teams improved a lot but we SHOULD be there to the end.
Houston fans are hard learned dis believers in our teams so we'll root like crazy, but we will take any loss/elimination as typical for our near miss history
I agree that on paper the Astros are the best team, but there's a reason that it's so hard to repeat. Verlander is going to exceed 200 ip two years in a row, plus an additional 36 in the 2017 post season. Cole will exceed 200 ip after a 200+ inning year last year, although no post season. Morton only threw 150 in 2017 and will only slightly exceed that this year, but he also threw 23 post season last year. Keuchel will hit 200 this year after 150 last year, but another 27 in the playoffs.
Those four combined to throw 86 post season innings last year. Compared to just 19 for the combo of Sale, Price, and Porcello for the Red Sox (the 2nd best team on paper). Plus an extra month of offseason for their arms to recuperate. I think it'll be one of those two teams coming out of the AL and then winning it all but in the last 24 months Red Sox aces have thrown considerably fewer innings than Astros aces, and that could make a considerable difference this October.
First to admit I was wrong on strop.
Quote from: MUDPT on September 14, 2018, 05:21:29 PM
First to admit I was wrong on strop.
Rosie ripping Joe. As i said in the past, Joe tends to overmanage. I think the third Strop inning iwas questionable but he did have to use nine pitchers yesterday.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-cubs-joe-maddon-decisions-rosenbloom-20180914-story,amp.html
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 14, 2018, 05:45:13 PM
Rosie ripping Joe. As i said in the past, Joe tends to overmanage. I think the third Strop inning iwas questionable but he did have to use nine pitchers yesterday.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-cubs-joe-maddon-decisions-rosenbloom-20180914-story,amp.html
Rosendoom!
https://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/the-official-joe-maddon-2018-performance-review-blog-first-draft
Quote from: MUDPT on September 14, 2018, 06:30:45 AM
The idea that Strop is out "weeks" already, hours after the injury is interesting. Nobody has any idea how long he will be out. Could feel fine this morning.
We know now. That really hurts the Cubs.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 14, 2018, 02:25:44 PM
Verlander is going to exceed 200 ip two years in a row, plus an additional 36 in the 2017 post season. Cole will exceed 200 ip after a 200+ inning year last year, although no post season. Morton only threw 150 in 2017 and will only slightly exceed that this year, but he also threw 23 post season last year. Keuchel will hit 200 this year after 150 last year, but another 27 in the playoffs.
Those four combined to throw 86 post season innings last year. Compared to just 19 for the combo of Sale, Price, and Porcello for the Red Sox (the 2nd best team on paper). Plus an extra month of offseason for their arms to recuperate. I think it'll be one of those two teams coming out of the AL and then winning it all but in the last 24 months Red Sox aces have thrown considerably fewer innings than Astros aces, and that could make a considerable difference this October.
Oh no! 200 innings for those guys? Why ... that's, like, 6 innings per start! They must be exhausted!!!
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 14, 2018, 12:37:11 AM
Actually, It's just poor taste to trash talk the 2nd place team in one of their best seasons (oops). But carry on...
Seriously though, as a cubs fan, I'm happy for the brewers. And I'd guess most cubs fans on this particular forum are in the same boat (with the Milwaukee connection). Now, I hope it's not at the cubs expense, but if it is so be it...
But I do find it amusing how people over analyze these late season games. It's a long season, and things generally work towards there averages. Those still have some room to change these last couple weeks (i.e. the cubs and brewers could flip, even a couple times), but it's more likely that the results are about the same as now by the end of the season.
Yup, Cubs fan who grew up on the Northside but never disliked the Brewers. In fact, had a whole lot of fun cheering for them in 2011 my Freshman year at Marquette.
Don't know where this Brewers/Cubs "rivalry" sprung from.
Quote from: MU82 on September 14, 2018, 09:55:03 PM
Oh no! 200 innings for those guys? Why ... that's, like, 6 innings per start! They must be exhausted!!!
Including the post season, a lot of those guys are starting to close in on 250, which is a lot, no matter who you ask.
When the cubs won it all in 2016 their core was Hendricks, Lester, Arrieta, Lackey, and Hammel (all 160+ ip, and 4 over 185). Do you think it's a coincidence that every single one of them had worse years in 2017 (Lester, Lackey, and Hammel by a considerable margin) when they had the extra work load in October 2016 and a month shorter offseason?
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 14, 2018, 10:12:07 PM
Including the post season, a lot of those guys are starting to close in 250, which is a lot, no matter who you ask.
I hear ya, DJO. Just having a little fun in my final hours before I lose electricity and am plunged into hopeless darkness!
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 14, 2018, 10:09:36 PMDon't know where this Brewers/Cubs "rivalry" sprung from.
Honestly, I think it's mostly from Cubs fans filling Miller Park. Tons of Cubs fans bought tickets and had fun in Milwaukee, and Milwaukee fans got upset. The "rivalry" has become more pronounced since the Cubs started winning.
Since the Brewers jumped to the NL, I've never got the sense anyone here cares about the Pirates or Reds. They don't like the Cards because they win, but hate the Cubs because they win and their fans are always present.
De LaRosa with the close. Let's see if that continues.
Brewers continue to surge. Now at 98% chance of making the playoffs.
Cards now tied with the Dodgers for the last Wild Card.
(http://mlblogsopeningday.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/14-ernie-banks.jpg)
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 14, 2018, 10:09:36 PM
Don't know where this Brewers/Cubs "rivalry" sprung from.
Mostly from Cubs fans telling Brewers fans that there isn't a rivalry.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 14, 2018, 10:22:23 PM
Honestly, I think it's mostly from Cubs fans filling Miller Park. Tons of Cubs fans bought tickets and had fun in Milwaukee, and Milwaukee fans got upset. The "rivalry" has become more pronounced since the Cubs started winning.
Since the Brewers jumped to the NL, I've never got the sense anyone here cares about the Pirates or Reds. They don't like the Cards because they win, but hate the Cubs because they win and their fans are always present.
It's not that they are present it's how they are present.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on September 15, 2018, 07:01:13 AM
It's not that they are present it's how they are present.
(https://shawetcanada.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/dawson-crying-animated.gif?w=600&h=401&crop=1)
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on September 15, 2018, 07:01:13 AM
It's not that they are present it's how they are present.
People say that but I think it's BS. Any time an opposing fanbase takes a significant portion of the seating in a team's home building, the fans get salty about it, especially when it happens every year. It's like how Bear fans hate hearing a "Go Pack Go" chant at Soldier or Bucky fans hate MU fans getting "We Are" at the Kohl.
No doubt that the rivalry has gotten more intense in recent years. I do think it has a lot to do with the Cubs being good. When both teams were lousy, who really cared? Look, as long as it remains good natured it's all fine. It means we're both playing meaningful baseball in the September/October. Game on.
Here's one thing Cubs and Brewers fans absolutely agree on...... hatred for the Cardinals.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 15, 2018, 08:59:32 AM
People say that but I think it's BS. Any time an opposing fanbase takes a significant portion of the seating in a team's home building, the fans get salty about it, especially when it happens every year. It's like how Bear fans hate hearing a "Go Pack Go" chant at Soldier or Bucky fans hate MU fans getting "We Are" at the Kohl.
Think Roman in Great Outdoors ;D
Watched the highlights of the Crew last night. Can't say I've ever seen a 2 RBI bunt double before.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 14, 2018, 11:08:14 PM
Cards now tied with the Dodgers for the last Wild Card.
Yeah, this sucks.
Time to rally and take two from those pesky Dodgers. C'mon guys, channel your inner Ozzie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4PB0XoLbm8
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 15, 2018, 10:57:36 AM
Watched the highlights of the Crew last night. Can't say I've ever seen a 2 RBI bunt double before.
I don't think anyone has seen it before.
Arcia has done a very nice job since returning from Colorado Springs. .283 in 53 ABs in August. .333 in 27 ABs in September. If he can maintain anything close that makes SS a plus position heading into the playoffs.
So is MVP down to Story, Baez, Yelich, and Arenado? Do the Colorado guys cancel each other out?
I think that the Miller Park rivalry is different than the Wrigley experience. Miller Park is more of a Bears-Packers rivalry than a baseball rivalry with 162 games. Tailgating, the importance of a win to fans is more like short season football, parking lot pre-gaming, grilling. To the fans, each game is all or nothing for bragging rights it seems (even though it's not), remembering many fans from both sides are bussed in. This could be their only one or two games they attend per season so it's a bigger deal.
At Wrigley, I think it is more like a baseball game. Sure there are a few drunks but is that any different team to team? Maybe a bit more but not much.
Quote from: jsglow on September 15, 2018, 11:59:01 AM
So is MVP down to Story, Baez, Yelich, and Arenado? Do the Colorado guys cancel each other out?
Goldschmidt, Carpenter, and Cain all are in the equation too. The top three pitchers (Scherzer, Nola, deGrom) will also get votes.
In a crowded field, bank on the best player on the best team, which right now is Baez. Chicago publicity helps, esp since there aren't really contenders in the other big cities (LA and NYC).
That said, I would not be shocked to see a very split ballot and an MVP that doesn't even get the most first place votes, but loads up on 2nd and 3rds.
Of course this is jumping the gun, but I think Puig may have just ended the Cardinal's season.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 15, 2018, 01:45:21 PM
Goldschmidt, Carpenter, and Cain all are in the equation too. The top three pitchers (Scherzer, Nola, deGrom) will also get votes.
In a crowded field, bank on the best player on the best team, which right now is Baez. Chicago publicity helps, esp since there aren't really contenders in the other big cities (LA and NYC).
That said, I would not be shocked to see a very split ballot and an MVP that doesn't even get the most first place votes, but loads up on 2nd and 3rds.
It's one thing to get votes, another to win. Take LoCain for example. Special player. Gold glove. But not winning up against Yelich (among others).
Nah, know ribbies, hey?
Quote from: jsglow on September 15, 2018, 01:50:04 PM
Of course this is jumping the gun, but I think Puig may have just ended the Cardinal's season.
Can't say I'm too upset about that, though I am afraid of the Dodgers in the playoffs. I would not like having to face Kershaw in a wild card game.
Quote from: jsglow on September 15, 2018, 01:50:04 PM
Of course this is jumping the gun, but I think Puig may have just ended the Cardinal's season.
Very possible
I think Baez is the NL MVP leader. No. 1 in RBI, great fielder, many big hits throughout season, division-leading team, Chicago market.
And BBWAA voters also are famous for voting for the guy who is best at sliding year after year after year.
(https://suntimesmedia.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/davidbote-e1534189212850.jpg?w=586&h=440)
Probably more importantly is that Hammels and Lester were both able to go 7 innings. Cubs bullpen is gassed.
Quote from: MU82 on September 15, 2018, 04:08:16 PM
I think Baez is the NL MVP leader. No. 1 in RBI, great fielder, many big hits throughout season, division-leading team, Chicago market.
And BBWAA voters also are famous for voting for the guy who is best at sliding year after year after year.
I agree with that, especially if they win the division. But I really think Yelich is right there. His almost unstoppable right now. Another dinger in the 1st tonight.
Quote from: jsglow on September 15, 2018, 11:42:26 AM
I don't think anyone has seen it before.
Maybe not MLB fans (not sure), but it happened as a walk off just recently (in japan)
https://www.bardown.com/japanese-high-school-baseball-team-wins-game-on-thrilling-two-run-walk-off-bunt-1.1162218
https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/99hsm7/japanese_team_advances_to_the_national_high/
Edit: Sorry that was just a 2 RBI bunt (out). Not the double. Still interesting...
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 15, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Probably more importantly is that Hammels and Lester were both able to go 7 innings. Cubs bullpen is gassed.
Not just gassed, decimated.
Think if the Crew have any chance of catching the Cubbies, this next set of series is critical. Brewers have to sweep the Reds and hope the D-backs can right the ship and take the series against Chicago. After that, I have a hard time seeing the Cubs losing enough for the Crew to catch them.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 17, 2018, 12:22:41 AM
Think if the Crew have any chance of catching the Cubbies, this next set of series is critical. Brewers have to sweep the Reds and hope the D-backs can right the ship and take the series against Chicago. After that, I have a hard time seeing the Cubs losing enough for the Crew to catch them.
Slim.
Yelich just hit for the cycle again. Against the same team too.
MVP
Quote from: #bansultan on September 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
Yelich just hit for the cycle again. Against the same team too.
Absolutely amazing. 1/25/18 may go down as one of the greatest days in Brewers history.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 17, 2018, 08:41:16 PM
Yelich just hit for the cycle again. Against the same team too.
Third time in modern baseball history that a player did it twice in one year. Many of the greatest hitters ever hit it once or twice in their entire career.
This is all I can think of right now:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26BRsI63ak8uxsU6Y/giphy.gif)
Let's go, Snakes.
Quote from: Benny B on September 17, 2018, 09:29:50 PM
This is all I can think of right now:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/26BRsI63ak8uxsU6Y/giphy.gif)
Let's go, Snakes.
Fact.
Obscure but also the first player ever to cycle twice in same season against the same team.
Hader's last 13 recorded outs have been Ks.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 17, 2018, 10:27:48 PM
Hader's last 13 recorded outs have been Ks.
So you're saying he's one dimensional
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 17, 2018, 10:27:48 PM
Hader's last 13 recorded outs have been Ks.
(http://s.quickmeme.com/img/19/196fbdef5f281bdd5abe7090e410ac2446120f5e53757db05a836651e64d4408.jpg)
Doing something only two other players have done before...one of them being Babe Ruth...that has to move the needle in the MVP vote right?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51nX9hC3BhL.jpg)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 17, 2018, 11:08:36 PM
Doing something only two other players have done before...one of them being Babe Ruth...that has to move the needle in the MVP vote right?
Babe Herman and it's been done 4 times before. Only twice in the "modern era" though. Apparently the 1920's are modern.
Still incredible, though.
An overlooked addition to the Crew has been Granderson. Dude can absolutely still ball. And still has a helluva set of wheels. He's going to provide outstanding leadership during the playoffs.
How's his neck, hey?
I agree hitting for the cycle is quirky and neat, but 5 players have had a 3 home-run game this season. Each of those is more impressive than a cycle.
Basically what I'm saying is Matt Davidson has had a better offense game this year than Yelich had last night.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 18, 2018, 09:46:42 AM
I agree hitting for the cycle is quirky and neat, but 5 players have had a 3 home-run game this season. Each of those is more impressive than a cycle.
Basically what I'm saying is Matt Davidson has had a better offense game this year than Yelich had last night.
Stats can be deceiving, context is everything
Player hits for the cycle vs. 3 home runs... if the guy hits for the cycle knocks in six runs and leads his team to a win yet the guy hitting the HR's has three solo shots but struck out with two down in the bottom of the ninth with runners on 2nd and 3rd in a one-run game, I would argue that the guy hitting the cycle had a better offense that evening.
Quote from: jsglow on September 18, 2018, 07:42:49 AM
An overlooked addition to the Crew has been Granderson. Dude can absolutely still ball. And still has a helluva set of wheels. He's going to provide outstanding leadership during the playoffs.
Going by the stats, he's exceeding any performance with previous teams. Not "can still ball", but "is batting better than ever so far with the Brewers". He's a career ~0.800 OPS guy, 1.333 is crazy. I'd be surprised (and suspicious) if he keeps it up.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandcu01.shtml
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 18, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
Going by the stats, he's exceeding any performance with previous teams. Not "can still ball", but "is batting better than ever so far with the Brewers". He's a career ~0.800 OPS guy, 1.333 is crazy. I'd be surprised (and suspicious) if he keeps it up.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandcu01.shtml
steroids?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 18, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
Going by the stats, he's exceeding any performance with previous teams. Not "can still ball", but "is batting better than ever so far with the Brewers". He's a career ~0.800 OPS guy, 1.333 is crazy. I'd be surprised (and suspicious) if he keeps it up.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandcu01.shtml
Ummm, a 1300 OPS is super prime Babe Ruth territory. I don't think anyone was suggesting that the type of play to be expected of Granderson.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 18, 2018, 09:46:42 AM
I agree hitting for the cycle is quirky and neat, but 5 players have had a 3 home-run game this season. Each of those is more impressive than a cycle.
Basically what I'm saying is Matt Davidson has had a better offense game this year than Yelich had last night.
While the cycle is a gimmicky thing, Yelich has been just great with the Brewers. You could have gotten pretty good money on him leading the NL in SLG% and OPS at this point in the season.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 18, 2018, 09:46:42 AM
I agree hitting for the cycle is quirky and neat, but 5 players have had a 3 home-run game this season. Each of those is more impressive than a cycle.
Basically what I'm saying is Matt Davidson has had a better offense game this year than Yelich had last night.
I will argue that far fewer guys are able to hit for the cycle simply because of the triple. Of course a 3 homer game is more valuable.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 18, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
Going by the stats, he's exceeding any performance with previous teams. Not "can still ball", but "is batting better than ever so far with the Brewers". He's a career ~0.800 OPS guy, 1.333 is crazy. I'd be surprised (and suspicious) if he keeps it up.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandcu01.shtml
Whatever, I'm glad he's on our team. Guys like that can carry you for a month. Between Grandy, LoCain, Yeli at the dish and Hader striking out 27 batters a game we might actually win this thing!
All in on cheering for the Dodgers this series. I'd much rather face Kyle Freeland than Clayton Kershaw in a 1 game playoff.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 18, 2018, 12:10:18 PM
Ummm, a 1300 OPS is super prime Babe Ruth territory. I don't think anyone was suggesting that the type of play to be expected of Granderson.
Wasn't reading it that way, just pointing out that the "overlooked' player is actually killing it!
I have more confidence that the Brewers can win a best of 5 and best of 7 series than I have in the Brewers winning a do or die game to get into those longer series.
Quote from: mannionsworld on September 18, 2018, 01:36:53 PM
I have more confidence that the Brewers can win a best of 5 and best of 7 series than I have in the Brewers winning a do or die game to get into those longer series.
I don't think that's a brewers exclusive. The single game wild card elimination isn't a very 'baseball-y' thing to do.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 18, 2018, 01:43:08 PM
I don't think that's a brewers exclusive. The single game wild card elimination isn't a very 'baseball-y' thing to do.
Which is ironically why many people like it.
Crapshoot, aina?
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 18, 2018, 06:59:06 PM
No, just win your division.
Yep. I have very little sympathy for the teams that have to play 1-game playoffs. Don't like it? Win more games. The Brewers certainly had many chances to beat the Cubbies (and other teams) to end up with one more win than their rivals.
It's why I never whine about NCAA tournament bubble teams getting "screwed," either. Don't wanna get screwed? Win another game or two!
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/8CaKocIdbxkU-DFc5124Bu3x3wQ=/0x1071:2430x2691/1200x800/filters:focal(0x1071:2430x2691)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/45669332/82104364.0.0.jpg)
Quote from: MU82 on September 18, 2018, 10:07:44 PM
Yep. I have very little sympathy for the teams that have to play 1-game playoffs. Don't like it? Win more games. The Brewers certainly had many chances to beat the Cubbies (and other teams) to end up with one more win than their rivals.
It's why I never whine about NCAA tournament bubble teams getting "screwed," either. Don't wanna get screwed? Win another game or two!
While I agree with your NCAA opinion, not sure I do with your MLB one. I just think that rolling into the wildcard, a sub par team to you shouldn't have the opportunity to take you down due to a single rotational stud. Baseball is one of the few sports that plays enough games to truly effectively demonstrate the results and I think it is dumb that they base advancement on the same number of games as a league that plays 16 regular season matchups. Then again I am just a simple finance guy.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 18, 2018, 01:36:53 PM
I have more confidence that the Brewers can win a best of 5 and best of 7 series than I have in the Brewers winning a do or die game to get into those longer series.
If they can win the "best of 162" they won't have to win a one game "do or die".
Quote from: ZaLiN on September 19, 2018, 02:10:47 AM
While I agree with your NCAA opinion, not sure I do with your MLB one. I just think that rolling into the wildcard, a sub par team to you shouldn't have the opportunity to take you down due to a single rotational stud. Baseball is one of the few sports that plays enough games to truly effectively demonstrate the results and I think it is dumb that they base advancement on the same number of games as a league that plays 16 regular season matchups. Then again I am just a simple finance guy.
Logically I agree with you. But playoffs aren't really about logic.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 19, 2018, 08:32:04 AM
Logically I agree with you. But playoffs aren't really about logic.
This is where I come out as well. Any MLB playoff design will suffer from a "too small of a sample size" problem. There just isn't a good way to shrink a 162 game, 600 AB per player, 200 IP per pitcher, season into an abbreviated playoff structure. Maybe a 3 game short wild card series could make some sense vs the single game. But then the winner would be able to bring their ace back for Game 1 of the Divisionals - and having to burn your ace on the WC is my favorite thing about it.
The problem with the argument of "win your division" or "win more games" is that in both leagues this year the team with the 2nd best record in each league is probably going to end up playing in the Wild Card game, and then the 2 teams with the best records in each league are going to match up in the Divisional Series if each of those teams win the Wild Card game.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 19, 2018, 10:38:54 AM
The problem with the argument of "win your division" or "win more games" is that in both leagues this year the team with the 2nd best record in each league is probably going to end up playing in the Wild Card game, and then the 2 teams with the best records in each league are going to match up in the Divisional Series if each of those teams win the Wild Card game.
Bingo. I prefer the NBA's structure, where you can take credit for winning your division, but winning your division is really meaningless when it comes to the playoffs.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 19, 2018, 10:38:54 AM
The problem with the argument of "win your division" or "win more games" is that in both leagues this year the team with the 2nd best record in each league is probably going to end up playing in the Wild Card game, and then the 2 teams with the best records in each league are going to match up in the Divisional Series if each of those teams win the Wild Card game.
As I have said before, but that is why I prefer no divisions. Top 5 teams from each league makes the playoffs.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 19, 2018, 10:34:20 AM
This is where I come out as well. Any MLB playoff design will suffer from a "too small of a sample size" problem. There just isn't a good way to shrink a 162 game, 600 AB per player, 200 IP per pitcher, season into an abbreviated playoff structure. Maybe a 3 game short wild card series could make some sense vs the single game. But then the winner would be able to bring their ace back for Game 1 of the Divisionals - and having to burn your ace on the WC is my favorite thing about it.
Really the second Wild Card is a pure gimmick. It keeps more teams in the hunt every year and the "one off" nature of the WC game was an attempt to draw viewers.
And that's fine. I've long gotten over the "we're watering down the playoffs" mode of thinking - in all sports.
Personally, I think the MLB playoffs could use a little watering down. Only 33% of your teams making the postseason always seemed crazy to me. And if they add two more expansion teams...
Quote from: wadesworld on September 19, 2018, 10:38:54 AM
The problem with the argument of "win your division" or "win more games" is that in both leagues this year the team with the 2nd best record in each league is probably going to end up playing in the Wild Card game, and then the 2 teams with the best records in each league are going to match up in the Divisional Series if each of those teams win the Wild Card game.
I know what you are saying, but I think I disagree. Teams have so many chances, especially within their divisions. The Brewers are 3.5 back, and they are 8-11 against the Cubs. They are 5-11 against the Pirates. If the Brewers don't win their division, it is most likely due to their play within their division. They are currently 3 games under .500 in division play. The Cubs are 5 over in division play.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 19, 2018, 11:55:15 AM
Personally, I think the MLB playoffs could use a little watering down. Only 33% of your teams making the postseason always seemed crazy to me. And if they add two more expansion teams...
Less regular season and more post season would do MLB some good. If you ended it after last weekend, you would have some time for two, three game Wild Card series in each league. Division series could start next Monday. It's never going to happen though.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 19, 2018, 12:06:03 PM
Less regular season and more post season would do MLB some good. If you ended it after last weekend, you would have some time for two, three game Wild Card series in each league. Division series could start next Monday. It's never going to happen though.
That leaves the division winners sitting for a while, which could be problematic for their timing, etc. If you have hitters going a week or more without seeing live pitching, it may give an advantage to the wild card team, which doesn't seem right.
And even with more teams making the playoffs in the NBA, for example, the number of teams with a legit shot a making the finals is what 4-ish usually? Those first round match-ups are seldom very compelling.
Looking at Yelich and Baez, it's pretty tough to parse the two. WAR is similar, Yelich has the edge in the averages, Baez the edge in many raw stats (HR, RBI, total bases).
While many partisan fans have their guy, it feels like it will come down to best player on the best team for national voters. Am I the only one that thinks the player that is on the NL Central winning team will also be MVP?
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 19, 2018, 01:06:27 PM
Looking at Yelich and Baez, it's pretty tough to parse the two. WAR is similar, Yelich has the edge in the averages, Baez the edge in many raw stats (HR, RBI, total bases).
While many partisan fans have their guy, it feels like it will come down to best player on the best team for national voters. Am I the only one that thinks the player that is on the NL Central winning team will also be MVP?
You are probably right, I have to say I don't understand why Arenado and Goldy aren't really in the picture.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 19, 2018, 12:09:21 PM
That leaves the division winners sitting for a while, which could be problematic for their timing, etc. If you have hitters going a week or more without seeing live pitching, it may give an advantage to the wild card team, which doesn't seem right.
And even with more teams making the playoffs in the NBA, for example, the number of teams with a legit shot a making the finals is what 4-ish usually? Those first round match-ups are seldom very compelling.
But people watch though.
I find the MLB regular season to be the worst of all the major sports/the one I watch the least of (especially if it's not "my" team playing in a game), but I think it might be my favorite playoffs in professional sports.
The one game Wild Card is fun, but I do think overall I wish it would be the 3 division winners and one Wild Card.
We are seeing some historically bad seasons this year with quite a few teams opting for a complete rebuild (potentially 5 100 loss teams). Would that be the case if there were an expanded playoff format in place? It's true that in the NBA with expanded playoff its easy to get stuck between complete rebuild and legit contender (bucks for the last two years). However would not be the case in baseball. In 2011 the team that had the worst record among playoff teams won the World Series, in 2014 neither World Series team had 90 regular season wins. If teams knew that they could make the playoffs with 80-85 wins there would be less tanking because once you're there, anyone can win, which is not the case in the NBA. Sure some teams would still pull a 76ers, but you would see more competitive and more meaningful baseball from more teams, which should equal more money.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 19, 2018, 02:03:18 PM
We are seeing some historically bad seasons this year with quite a few teams opting for a complete rebuild (potentially 5 100 loss teams). Would that be the case if there were an expanded playoff format in place? It's true that in the NBA with expanded playoff its easy to get stuck between complete rebuild and legit contender (bucks for the last two years). However would not be the case in baseball. In 2011 the team that had the worst record among playoff teams won the World Series, in 2014 neither World Series team had 90 regular season wins. If teams knew that they could make the playoffs with 80-85 wins there would be less tanking because once you're there, anyone can win, which is not the case in the NBA. Sure some teams would still pull a 76ers, but you would see more competitive and more meaningful baseball from more teams, which should equal more money.
This. The reason why teams like the Orioles, Royals, and White Sox made the choice to tank this year was because they knew that even if they spent some offseason money, they couldn't keep pace with the Red Sox, Yankees, Astros, and Indians. The mass of tanking and non competitive teams decreased free agent spending (just ask Mike Moustakas) and made fans complacent. You want more excitement and more revenue...increase the size of the playoffs. Teams with an outside shot will actually try and their fans won't see the writing on the wall in April. Owners will make more money from gate receipts (and more tv eyeballs) while players will make more money in free agency. This seems like a collective bargaining win-win.
More playoff teams means more rounds of playoffs. Unless they are going to play into December, that means fewer regular season games, and I don't see owners willing to give up those games.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 19, 2018, 02:32:25 PM
More playoff teams means more rounds of playoffs. Unless they are going to play into December, that means fewer regular season games, and I don't see owners willing to give up those games.
How much revenue is the Tigers/Twins game today bringing into Tigers management? Or Blue Jays/O's? Or any of the other games between 2 dog teams in September (or August, or July, or June, etc. this year)
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 19, 2018, 02:59:17 PM
How much revenue is the Tigers/Twins game today bringing into Tigers management? Or Blue Jays/O's? Or any of the other games between 2 dog teams in September (or August, or July, or June, etc. this year)
I'd venture a guess it's much more than you think when you take concession sales into consideration. I have zero numbers to back this up but I have to imagine concession numbers at baseball games blow away any of the other major sports.
I really don't think concessions net revenue brings all that much to the bottom line.
That being said, since the player contracts are a fixed cost, from the owner's perspective they may as well play the games. Many of the tickets are sold even if people don't show up to the games. But my guess is that owners would be happy to give up 15 games if it meant increased television contracts for playoffs AND players giving up 15 regular season game checks.
But that isn't happening.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 19, 2018, 03:33:16 PM
I'd venture a guess it's much more than you think when you take concession sales into consideration. I have zero numbers to back this up but I have to imagine concession numbers at baseball games blow away any of the other major sports.
19,296 paid attendance at the Tigers game today. that's paid, not butts in the seats. Doubt you are going to have much in the way of concessions.
Sorry, I kind of stopped paying attention to the standings in the AL since pretty much all the Playoff teams have been decided for quite a while now. Didn't realize that the Astros had jumped the Yankees by such a wide margin, so the 2nd best record in the AL will not be playing in a Wild Card game. But my overall point remains. It's easy to say "win more" but it's also easy to point out that some teams just have an easier situation to "win more" in.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 19, 2018, 06:06:31 PM
Sorry, I kind of stopped paying attention to the standings in the AL since pretty much all the Playoff teams have been decided for quite a while now. Didn't realize that the Astros had jumped the Yankees by such a wide margin, so the 2nd best record in the AL will not be playing in a Wild Card game. But my overall point remains. It's easy to say "win more" but it's also easy to point out that some teams just have an easier situation to "win more" in.
Did the cubs have an easier situation to"win more?"
Doesn't seem like it.
And goooooolllly is Joey Votto making a lot of money to hit 12 dingers.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 19, 2018, 06:45:17 PM
Did the cubs have an easier situation to"win more?"
Doesn't seem like it.
And goooooolllly is Joey Votto making a lot of money to hit 12 dingers.
So you disagree that some teams have an easier path to the Playoffs than others? Guess we'll agree to disagree.
And if you ask Cubbies fans, even the Reds, who are far and away the worst team in the division, are a "solid" baseball team. Which is laughable, but when the Cubbies get swept it can't be that they lost to a bad baseball team, it's that the team is solid, just had a slow start.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 19, 2018, 06:54:46 PM
So you disagree that some teams have an easier path to the Playoffs than others? Guess we'll agree to disagree.
And if you ask Cubbies fans, even the Reds, who are far and away the worst team in the division, are a "solid" baseball team. Which is laughable, but when the Cubbies get swept it can't be that they lost to a bad baseball team, it's that the team is solid, just had a slow start.
No, that isn't what I said. If the Indians were making the playoffs instead of the Brewers, you'd have a gripe.
If the Brewers end up the wildcard (increasingly likely) it is because the didn't win the games in their division, especially against the team that will likely win the division. It is as simple as that.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 19, 2018, 07:14:35 PM
No, that isn't what I said. If the Indians were making the playoffs instead of the Brewers, you'd have a gripe.
If the Brewers end up the wildcard (increasingly likely) it is because the didn't win the games in their division, especially against the team that will likely win the division. It is as simple as that.
I'm not really griping. I'm pointing out that the team with the 2nd best record in the NL will probably be playing in the Wild Card game, whether it's the Brewers (most likely) or the Cubs. Or even the Cards. In what is the best division in the NL (heck, even their worst team is "decent"). That's probably not the best formula.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 19, 2018, 11:56:31 AM
I know what you are saying, but I think I disagree. Teams have so many chances, especially within their divisions. The Brewers are 3.5 back, and they are 8-11 against the Cubs. They are 5-11 against the Pirates. If the Brewers don't win their division, it is most likely due to their play within their division. They are currently 3 games under .500 in division play. The Cubs are 5 over in division play.
I think this proves what Wades is trying to say. The Brewers have the second best record in baseball despite playing poorly in their division. You put them in the East or West and they probably have the best record in the NL by a couple of games.
You can't choose your division mates but it is true that teams in the NL East and West have an easier path to the playoffs than teams in the NL Central (this season).
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 19, 2018, 10:15:41 PM
I think this proves what Wades is trying to say. The Brewers have the second best record in baseball despite playing poorly in their division. You put them in the East or West and they probably have the best record in the NL by a couple of games.
You can't choose your division mates but it is true that teams in the NL East and West have an easier path to the playoffs than teams in the NL Central (this season).
Whether it's the Cubs or the Brewers, it will be the 1st or 2nd in the National (which is what you meant). What's crazier, the Cards would be very close today to leading the other two divisions for the 3rd best record.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 19, 2018, 11:00:23 PM
Whether it's the Cubs or the Brewers, it will be the 1st or 2nd in the National (which is what you meant). What's crazier, the Cards would be very close today to leading the other two divisions for the 3rd best record.
It's not "crazy" at all. If the Cardinals played better, they could have won their division. Zero sympathy.
Quote from: MU82 on September 19, 2018, 11:37:34 PM
It's not "crazy" at all. If the Cardinals played better, they could have won their division. Zero sympathy.
Not asking for sympathy just parity. In today's game, we have many teams tanking to rebuild. Whereas, the top teams (close to top 3), are in the same division. The MLB playoffs were designed for another era. If teams are gonna tank on design (worst Orioles team in history), the playoff system needs to adjust and be dynamic.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 19, 2018, 11:00:23 PM
Whether it's the Cubs or the Brewers, it will be the 1st or 2nd in the National (which is what you meant). What's crazier, the Cards would be very close today to leading the other two divisions for the 3rd best record.
Happened back in 2015 as well. The 98 win Pirates hosted the 97 win Cubs in the wildcard game. Both the Cubs and the Pirates would have won either the NL East or West easily.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 19, 2018, 11:50:10 PM
Not asking for sympathy just parity. In today's game, we have many teams tanking to rebuild. Whereas, the top teams (close to top 3), are in the same division. The MLB playoffs were designed for another era. If teams are gonna tank on design (worst Orioles team in history), the playoff system needs to adjust and be dynamic.
Yeah, the O's weren't a designed tank. They were just terrible.
And the NL only has what 2 tanking teams? That hardly throws the balance off completely.
Parity is impossible. The teams in the Central divisions have easier travel than the other teams. Should we fix that? If you scrap divisions it will only exaggerate that aspect more.
I also don't think you can assume the Brewers would fare better in another division either. The team that has beat them up the most are the Pirates who arrrrr pretty mediocre.
This stuff happens. But it isn't similar to a 103 win team missing the playoffs. Is this a chronic problem? Doesn't seem like it at this point.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 12:49:32 AM
Yeah, the O's weren't a designed tank. They were just terrible.
And the NL only has what 2 tanking teams? That hardly throws the balance off completely.
Parity is impossible. The teams in the Central divisions have easier travel than the other teams. Should we fix that? If you scrap divisions it will only exaggerate that aspect more.
I also don't think you can assume the Brewers would fare better in another division either. The team that has beat them up the most are the Pirates who arrrrr pretty mediocre.
This stuff happens. But it isn't similar to a 103 win team missing the playoffs. Is this a chronic problem? Doesn't seem like it at this point.
I disagree with most of this.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 12:49:32 AM
Yeah, the O's weren't a designed tank. They were just terrible.
Agreed. They were really bad in the first half, which lead to a firesale. That made them even worse.
I, for one, like the unbalanced schedule. Playing familiar division rivals is more fun in any sport. The only tweak I would make is to increase the Wild Card to 2 out of 3 OR revert back to a single WC winner. The second WC is a gimmick to keep the 4th place team 'interested'. After a 162 game season, fortune shouldn't be settled by one game. Baseball is too unpredictable for that on any given day. The reason that a game 7 is so compelling is that two teams have battled through 6 evenly to get there.
Quote from: jsglow on September 20, 2018, 07:03:22 AM
I, for one, like the unbalanced schedule. Playing familiar division rivals is more fun in any sport. The only tweak I would make is to increase the Wild Card to 2 out of 3 OR revert back to a single WC winner. The second WC is a gimmick to keep the 4th place team 'interested'. After a 162 game season, fortune shouldn't be settled by one game. Baseball is too unpredictable for that on any given day. The reason that a game 7 is so compelling is that two teams have battled through 6 evenly to get there.
Yup. If it were up to me it'd be a single Wild Card team and every series would be best of 7.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 20, 2018, 01:30:20 AM
I disagree with most of this.
Seems like poor analysis. Where'd I go wrong?
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 19, 2018, 02:32:25 PM
More playoff teams means more rounds of playoffs. Unless they are going to play into December, that means fewer regular season games, and I don't see owners willing to give up those games.
I've seen this argument a couple time over the course of the season and as long as the owners could convince the players to give up whatever the equivalent of 9 or so games pay (easier said than done) I don't think they would be against it.
There are two professional sports that play exclusively indoors, and thus have the possibility to technically play at any time during the year. NHL (novelties like the winter classic excluded), and the NBA. NHL gets a pass because the cost of keeping rinks frozen in Florida, Texas, and Arizona through the summer would be huge. However if the equation were as simple as more games = more money, wouldn't the NBA owners constantly be pushing for longer seasons? The NBA players probably wouldn't even be against it, because they could use it as leverage to eliminate road games on back to back nights (which has been a concern for a couple years), as well as the idea that if the season is 10-15% longer, they can get 10-15% more money.
The idea of more games = more money makes sense in theory, but I think it is far more complicated than that.
Quote from: jsglow on September 20, 2018, 07:03:22 AM
After a 162 game season, fortune shouldn't be settled by one game. Baseball is too unpredictable for that on any given day.
Sh!t happens when you don't win the division.
Quote from: RJax55 on September 19, 2018, 11:55:45 PM
Happened back in 2015 as well. The 98 win Pirates hosted the 97 win Cubs in the wildcard game. Both the Cubs and the Pirates would have won either the NL East or West easily.
or any other division in the AL
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 12:49:32 AM
This stuff happens. But it isn't similar to a 103 win team missing the playoffs. Is this a chronic problem? Doesn't seem like it at this point.
Eh it's happened twice in the past four years in the nl. It might be.
Since most of the NL central team are off today (Cubs with another day off, didn't they just have one, SMH) I'll throw this hypothetical out there.
If playoffs were expanded, wouldn't that create more incentive for the teams that are good, but not good enough to make the playoffs (D-Backs, Phillies, Mariners, Rays) to join in the sweepstakes for one of the big mid-season trades?
Then wouldn't the increase in interested teams then increase the amount it would take to get the big mid-season trades? If more teams were involved, the O's could have gotten an entire AAA team for Machado.
With larger return wouldn't that then speed up the rebuild times, and make tanking teams contenders quicker?
So it would help the mid-tier teams, it would help the tanking teams, the only teams it would hurt are the big spending teams, because they would either lose out on trades or have to give more up, plus there would be more rounds in the playoffs for them to get upset. It would essentially make the rich less rich, and help out the mid and bottom tier teams.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 20, 2018, 09:29:37 AM
Eh it's happened twice in the past four years in the nl. It might be.
4 years doesn't seem like a great sample size.
I know it happens, but thise teams have a chance to win their division.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 20, 2018, 09:27:40 AM
or any other division in the AL
Context? Wasn't the AL much stronger than thr NL that year?
Quote from: jsglow on September 20, 2018, 07:03:22 AM
The reason that a game 7 is so compelling is that two teams have battled through 6 evenly to get there.
By that logic, wouldn't a 2-2 Game 5 or a 1-1 Game 3 be more compelling than the WC game?
The WC game is compelling because it's winner take all.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 10:37:54 AM
Context? Wasn't the AL much stronger than thr NL that year?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2015-standings.shtml
Best three records in baseball were Cards, Bucs, and Cubs
Quote from: drewm88 on September 20, 2018, 10:43:37 AM
By that logic, wouldn't a 2-2 Game 5 or a 1-1 Game 3 be more compelling than the WC game?
The WC game is compelling because it's winner take all.
We're going to agree to disagree. In my view (admittedly, this is just an opinion), baseball is all about the long term. Which is weird that I think that because I generally love the NCAA. I guess all that I am saying is that I don't think a 162 game season for two teams should come down to game 163. That's 4,374 outs over 6 months being totally determined by the next 27. For me, that's too big an imbalance.
Look, I feel the exact same way about the way NASCAR has ruined the sport with its ridiculous 'playoff' format. And I've been a stock car fan my entire life but not really any more.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2018, 10:44:50 AM
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2015-standings.shtml
Best three records in baseball were Cards, Bucs, and Cubs
Yeah, and the NL had 6 teams with winning % lower than .460. AL had 1.
That's a lot of really bad teams. Which can lead to inflated records.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 11:12:21 AM
Yeah, and the NL had 6 teams with winning % lower than .460. AL had 1.
That's a lot of really bad teams. Which can lead to inflated records.
Point still stands that two out the top three teams record wise after 163 games were in a one game playoff.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2018, 11:14:54 AM
Point still stands that two out the top three teams record wise after 163 games were in a one game playoff.
And each of those teams had 162 games to avoid that situation.
Teams know the deal. Winning your division matters.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 11:40:05 AM
And each of those teams had 162 games to avoid that situation.
Teams know the deal. Winning your division matters.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
We can agree to disagree, but the "teams know the deal" idea is really stupid.
If the MLB had rules in place so that the team with the best record in the NL and AL played in the WS (two teams, one series that's it), everyone would know and understand how it would work, but that doesn't stop it from being a really stupid idea. Winning your division should mean something, but the disadvantages given to teams that don't is over the top.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2018, 10:29:01 AM
Since most of the NL central team are off today (Cubs with another day off, didn't they just have one, SMH) I'll throw this hypothetical out there.
If playoffs were expanded, wouldn't that create more incentive for the teams that are good, but not good enough to make the playoffs (D-Backs, Phillies, Mariners, Rays) to join in the sweepstakes for one of the big mid-season trades?
Then wouldn't the increase in interested teams then increase the amount it would take to get the big mid-season trades? If more teams were involved, the O's could have gotten an entire AAA team for Machado.
With larger return wouldn't that then speed up the rebuild times, and make tanking teams contenders quicker?
So it would help the mid-tier teams, it would help the tanking teams, the only teams it would hurt are the big spending teams, because they would either lose out on trades or have to give more up, plus there would be more rounds in the playoffs for them to get upset. It would essentially make the rich less rich, and help out the mid and bottom tier teams.
By the way... No probably not. The DBacks were in first place at the time. Their actions would have likely been the same. The Phillies were active( and in first, or a game or so back), made a couple moves, tried to make more (Adam Jones). The Mariners made moves as well, most of them earlier in the season. The Rays were not in contention at that time, and making big splashy acquisitions isn't really their style.
The O's would have gotten more for Machado if they traded him sooner. Their return wasn't for lack of interest, it was due to lack of control. In today's baseball world, player control often trumps player talent as a guy's main asset.
Quote from: jsglow on September 20, 2018, 10:58:26 AMI guess all that I am saying is that I don't think a 162 game season for two teams should come down to game 163. That's 4,374 outs over 6 months being totally determined by the next 27. For me, that's too big an imbalance.
If teams play those 162 to an identical record, then I'm all for the one game playoff. But in a situation where one team could be 3+ games better over the course of 162, it seems harsh to have their season potentially end in one game.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 12:12:47 PM
By the way... No probably not. The DBacks were in first place at the time. Their actions would have likely been the same. The Phillies were active( and in first, or a game or so back), made a couple moves, tried to make more (Adam Jones). The Mariners made moves as well, most of them earlier in the season. The Rays were not in contention at that time, and making big splashy acquisitions isn't really their style.
The O's would have gotten more for Machado if they traded him sooner. Their return wasn't for lack of interest, it was due to lack of control. In today's baseball world, player control often trumps player talent as a guy's main asset.
You also have to look at lack of selling, not just buying. Would the Tommy Pham deal had happened (weirdly worked out for the Cards anyways), would Harper have been available, Daniel Murphy, Matt Adams, sending Archer away? There were so many deals going both way's by teams that would be in contention with expanded playoffs. If all of these sellers were buyers, it would have drastically effected the market.
Quote from: MUfan12 on September 20, 2018, 12:29:40 PM
If teams play those 162 to an identical record, then I'm all for the one game playoff. But in a situation where one team could be 3+ games better over the course of 162, it seems harsh to have their season potentially end in one game.
Agreed. Gotta break a tie. Single game, of course.
Nm
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 01:15:29 PM
Am I misunderstanding or does this contradict your previous points?
The Nats still would have sold. They had no chance at a WC. Even if there were 2 more. They waited as long as possible anyways.
Thr Pham move isn't weird that it had worked out for both teams. He is a good player, but the D that Bader provides is huge for the Cards. They were more shaking things up than truly selling.
The Rays were 1 game over at the deadline. This was probably their last chance to get a haul for Archer (control-performance), perfect storm to trade him.
Maybe the Nats would have bought, but they were a disaster. I don't think they would have added to much.
I honestly don't think expanded playoffs would have had to much of an impact on the deadline this season.
I think you're misunderstanding my point. Teams close to contention both bought and sold. If the margin for "contention" was wider they would have been buyers instead of sellers. If they were all buyers, and the only sellers were teams that were tanking the price would have gone up. Less supply, more demand, price increase. This is true not just for this season, when you look at specific examples, but in general. Do you think the price for Cespedes in 2015 would have been more than two pitchers combining to go 4-15 this year with an era close to 5, if there had been a wider contention margin. I could have seen the Indians, Orioles, Angles, Twins, or Rays attempting to hi-jack that deal. Any one of those teams gets involved in a bidding war, and the A's take home a bigger return.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2018, 01:35:25 PM
Do you think the price for Cespedes in 2015 would have been more than two pitchers combining to go 4-15 this year with an era close to 5, if there had been a wider contention margin. I could have seen the Indians, Orioles, Angles, Twins, or Rays attempting to hi-jack that deal. Any one of those teams gets involved in a bidding war, and the A's take home a bigger return.
Michael Fulmer was a very highly thought of prospect. He continues to be a very promising young pitcher. Rough year this year, but the talent is there. That was a good return for 2 months of Cespedes.
If there were more playoff teams, there would be more teams thinking that they have a chance to compete, meaning fewer sellers. I actually think it would decrease the likelihood of trades, and we'd see more August waiver trades (which has actually been the trend lately anyway).
Current system works just fine. If they changed it to make it work "better," that would be fine with me, too. I can't get worked up about any of it.
Cardinals are supposedly better than the teams that are gonna win the other divisions, but they just went 3-4 in games against the Dodgers and Braves in games that all 3 teams needed to win.
Again, all the Cardinals had to do beat the Cubs a few more times, and they'd have won the division and it would be Cubbie fans whining.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 20, 2018, 02:47:43 PM
If there were more playoff teams, there would be more teams thinking that they have a chance to compete, meaning fewer sellers. I actually think it would decrease the likelihood of trades, and we'd see more August waiver trades (which has actually been the trend lately anyway).
I don't like that players who get traded to teams in August can play in the postseason. It's bad enough the guys traded at the July 31 deadline get to. The playoffs should be the teams who played together all year. I hated that the Astros just picked up a guy like Verlander who pitched more innings for them in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. Just doesn't seem right to me.
Quote from: CTWarrior on September 20, 2018, 03:48:36 PM
I don't like that players who get traded to teams in August can play in the postseason. It's bad enough the guys traded at the July 31 deadline get to. The playoffs should be the teams who played together all year. I hated that the Astros just picked up a guy like Verlander who pitched more innings for them in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. Just doesn't seem right to me.
Is there a professional sport that doesn't allowed players traded midseason to go to the playoffs?
Quote from: CTWarrior on September 20, 2018, 03:48:36 PM
I don't like that players who get traded to teams in August can play in the postseason. It's bad enough the guys traded at the July 31 deadline get to. The playoffs should be the teams who played together all year. I hated that the Astros just picked up a guy like Verlander who pitched more innings for them in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. Just doesn't seem right to me.
Can anything beat this scoop idea
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 20, 2018, 05:49:53 PM
Can anything beat this scoop idea
How about a tag up being the best play in baseball history?
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 20, 2018, 05:49:53 PM
Can anything beat this scoop idea
While it would be wonderful to eliminate Manny Ramirez's 1.743 OPS during the '08 NLDS against the Cubs, I don't think I can get behind the idea of leaving trade deadline guys from playoff rosters.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 20, 2018, 06:04:11 PM
How about a tag up being the best play in baseball history?
I'll stand behind my drunken decision that the tag up to 2nd was the best play ever. And screw the haters
Addison Russell's ex-wife posted a detailed and disturbing blog post last night. MLB needs to re-open the investigation and I wouldn't be surprised if Russell has played his last inning as a Cub.
https://lifewithmelis310373032.wordpress.com/
https://twitter.com/eric_nehm/status/1043021743428755457
I think I might be a Baker Mayfield fan now.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 21, 2018, 09:18:38 AM
https://twitter.com/eric_nehm/status/1043021743428755457
I think I might be a Baker Mayfield fan now.
He showed up to the stadium in a Yelich jersey as well.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 21, 2018, 09:09:35 AM
Addison Russell's ex-wife posted a detailed and disturbing blog post last night. MLB needs to re-open the investigation and I wouldn't be surprised if Russell has played his last inning as a Cub.
https://lifewithmelis310373032.wordpress.com/
I think the feeling from Cubs fans has slowly evolved from "he's a young dude and father, hope he can get his life together" to "man, this dude is a scumbag", especially when you haven't gotten much in the way of defense of him.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 21, 2018, 09:32:01 AM
I think the feeling from Cubs fans has slowly evolved from "he's a young dude and father, hope he can get his life together" to "man, this dude is a scumbag", especially when you haven't gotten much in the way of defense of him.
I think it was more of "these are unsubstantiated claims and all he did was cheat on his wife. Meh." To, "I better walk that back, the claims may not be so unsubstantiated."
Quote from: JWags85 on September 21, 2018, 09:32:01 AM
I think the feeling from Cubs fans has slowly evolved from "he's a young dude and father, hope he can get his life together" to "man, this dude is a scumbag", especially when you haven't gotten much in the way of defense of him.
I had no doubt he cheated on his wife multiple times and likely wasn't a good guy. Second-hand domestic violence claims via social media that are then removed and her apparent lack of cooperation into the investigation made it more difficult to know what to believe about that. This new post changes that.
MLB needs to investigate and she needs to cooperate fully.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 21, 2018, 09:18:38 AM
https://twitter.com/eric_nehm/status/1043021743428755457
I think I might be a Baker Mayfield fan now.
I read somewhere that they practice/workout together in the offseason, though they might not have time this year. Super Bowl is only like a week before spring training starts.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 21, 2018, 09:29:09 AM
He showed up to the stadium in a Yelich jersey as well.
There was a fairly compelling article in MLB.com yesterday stating a case for deGrom to win the MVP. The biggest factor was he is about 2 fWAR above Yelich/Baez.
Not that he will win, but it was an interesting point of view.
And I hope the Brewers are ready to take advantage because the White Sox are gonna sweeeeeeeeeep!!!!!!
Hmmmm....
Edit: Here is the link to that story
https://www.mlb.com/news/jacob-degrom-should-be-national-league-mvp/c-295265432?tid=277658066
Because I was curious, here's the Brewers' record against the various divisions:
NL West: 23-10 (.697)
NL East: 20-13 (.606)
AL Central: 10-7 (.588)
NL Central: 34-36 (.486)
Hard to win your division if you can't beat your division. They have a chance to finish at or above .500 if they can win both of the next series.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 21, 2018, 09:54:14 AM
There was a fairly compelling article in MLB.com yesterday stating a case for deGrom to win the MVP. The biggest factor was he is about 2 fWAR above Yelich/Baez.
Not that he will win, but it was an interesting point of view.
And I hope the Brewers are ready to take advantage because the White Sox are gonna sweeeeeeeeeep!!!!!!
Hmmmm....
Hah. I hope you're right.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 21, 2018, 09:09:35 AM
Addison Russell's ex-wife posted a detailed and disturbing blog post last night. MLB needs to re-open the investigation and I wouldn't be surprised if Russell has played his last inning as a Cub.
https://lifewithmelis310373032.wordpress.com/
https://www.barstoolsports.com/baseball/bombshell-blog-post-by-addison-russells-ex-wife-alleges-years-of-physical-verbal-and-emotional-abuse
Russell placed on "administrative leave" by MLB.
First chapman, now Russell. New definition of Winning Ugly.
Yet Cubs fans still boo Braun.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 21, 2018, 12:49:26 PM
https://www.barstoolsports.com/baseball/bombshell-blog-post-by-addison-russells-ex-wife-alleges-years-of-physical-verbal-and-emotional-abuse
Will Addison ever play another game for the Cubs?
That is a horrible, sad story.
Not a great sidestep by Theo. Would have expected a stronger statement. "I would say that I know him in a baseball context. ... He's a member of this organization who has been an active member of this club."
Victor Martinez choosing to end his career on Saturday. He wants his final at-bats to be at home.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 21, 2018, 09:54:14 AM
And I hope the Brewers are ready to take advantage because the White Sox are gonna sweeeeeeeeeep!!!!!!
1 down...
Quote from: ZaLiN on September 21, 2018, 04:51:28 PM
Not a great sidestep by Theo. Would have expected a stronger statement. "I would say that I know him in a baseball context. ... He's a member of this organization who has been an active member of this club."
What should he have said? Perhaps you should share the rest of his quotes.
There's nothing to Cubs can do while MLB is investigating per the joint domestic violence policy.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 21, 2018, 05:50:49 PM
1 down...
Lopez's last 5 starts have been 7,7,6,7,7 in term of IP. 1,1,0,0,1 in terms of runs (binary solo!!!!!) 6,6,10,6,8 for K's.
With that said, I wouldn't put anything past the Sox bullpen right now. They have some talent there, but most of it has been at AA or AAA for most of the season.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 21, 2018, 04:31:42 PM
Russell placed on "administrative leave" by MLB.
First chapman, now Russell. New definition of Winning Ugly.
Yet Cubs fans still boo Braun.
In regards to Chapman you have a valid point. Russell not so much.
Quote from: tower912 on September 21, 2018, 05:04:17 PM
Victor Martinez choosing to end his career on Saturday. He wants his final at-bats to be at home.
That's cool. Great hitter, great career.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 21, 2018, 04:31:42 PM
Russell placed on "administrative leave" by MLB.
First chapman, now Russell. New definition of Winning Ugly.
Yet Cubs fans still boo Braun.
Braun tried to cover his cheating by trying to ruin an innocent guys life - if I am remembering correctly. That is completely boo-able in every way.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 21, 2018, 06:13:40 PM
Braun tried to cover his cheating by trying to ruin an innocent guys life - if I am remembering correctly. That is completely boo-able in every way.
IIRC, the guy wasn't innocent, he did screw up. Did that make Braun any less guilty? No but the guy made a mistake. It's no different than a criminal getting off because of a mistake in chain of custody. Criminal is still a scumbag but the mistake is on law enforcement.
Nice gaslight. Braun absolutely cheated and threw a guy under a bus. Russell, if the claim is accurate, needs to find the soap in the shower in Joliet.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 21, 2018, 06:13:40 PM
Braun tried to cover his cheating by trying to ruin an innocent guys life - if I am remembering correctly. That is completely boo-able in every way.
The "ruin his life" narrative Cubs fans formed is hilarious. He did not do that, and even if he did he has nobody else to blame but himself.
If this were his main source of income (I believe it was not) then, like Braun, don't royally screw up the job you have to do or deal with the consequences.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 21, 2018, 08:14:43 PM
The "ruin his life" narrative Cubs fans formed is hilarious. He did not do that, and even if he did he has nobody else to blame but himself.
If this were his main source of income (I believe it was not) then, like Braun, don't royally screw up the job you have to do or deal with the consequences.
Wasn't he (the collector) widely accused of antisemitism?
Quote from: jsglow on September 21, 2018, 04:39:32 PM
That is a horrible, sad story.
If true, yes it is. I recall Dwyane Wade's ex wife making some false claims about Mr. Wade that turned out to be untrue. Had to be settled as a judicial matter which this should be, too.
Quote from: WarriorDad on September 21, 2018, 09:25:43 PM
If true, yes it is. I recall Dwyane Wade's ex wife making some false claims about Mr. Wade that turned out to be untrue. Had to be settled as a judicial matter which this should be, too.
Jesus. Some things never change for Chicos. But they definitely should.
Quote from: WarriorDad on September 21, 2018, 09:25:43 PM
If true, yes it is. I recall Dwyane Wade's ex wife making some false claims about Mr. Wade that turned out to be untrue. Had to be settled as a judicial matter which this should be, too.
I recall hearing that Rae Carruth didn't really have the mother of his child killed, either.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 21, 2018, 08:14:43 PM
The "ruin his life" narrative Cubs fans formed is hilarious. He did not do that, and even if he did he has nobody else to blame but himself.
If this were his main source of income (I believe it was not) then, like Braun, don't royally screw up the job you have to do or deal with the consequences.
Buck is a Sox fan.
A bit surprised only the gloating Sox fans are chiming in here on the closing of the larynx. While the Cubs-Brewers fans are in total agreement on the crappy MLB playoff system. Scoop surprises every day.
I fear the Cubs limp to the finish won't be enough. Stern's last moves with Gio and Granderson, plus getting healthy at the right time, has the Brew Crew surging. The Cubs only hope is to get stellar starts from their pitchers unlike yesterday.
The odds say the Cubs. Big Mo says the Brewers.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 22, 2018, 09:40:43 AM
A bit surprised only the gloating Sox fans are chiming in here on the closing of the larynx. While the Cubs-Brewers fans are in total agreement on the crappy MLB playoff system. Scoop surprises every day.
I fear the Cubs limp to the finish won't be enough. Stern's last moves with Gio and Granderson, plus getting healthy at the right time, has the Brew Crew surging. The Cubs only hope is to get stellar starts from their pitchers unlike yesterday.
The odds say the Cubs. Big Mo says the Brewers.
You know what? I could see Gio be the guy that 'carries' the Crew from a starting pitching prospective in the postseason. And the way they put a butt wuppin' on Harvey the other night was fabulous. Cinci completely overplayed that hand in July August.
Go back and review 2018. Stearns did a magnificent job on the players he got and just as importantly the players he passed on. Very few mistakes.
Quote from: jsglow on September 22, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
You know what? I could see Gio be the guy that 'carries' the Crew from a starting pitching prospective in the postseason. And the way they put a butt wuppin' on Harvey the other night was fabulous. Cinci completely overplayed that hand in July August.
Go back and review 2018. Stearns did a magnificent job on the players he got and just as importantly the players he passed on. Very few mistakes.
Agree. Pretty flawless moves all year. I do ding him on his past moves, though. Segura, Scooter and Davis moves by Sterns were bad, although Chase has been solid in return for Segura you could argue.
Interesting days ahead, though.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 22, 2018, 11:08:31 AM
Agree. Pretty flawless moves all year. I do ding him on his past moves, though. Segura, Scooter and Davis moves by Sterns were bad, although Chase has been solid in return for Segura you could argue.
Interesting days ahead, though.
Nothing is perfect. There was no indication that Davis and Scooter were going to blossom. And they both had some pretty long leashes in Milwaukee. I will agree that in retrospect Scooter would have been a better keep than Villar but recall that the decision was made in April 2017, immediately after the Villar's breakout 2016 season. Most teams don't keep 2 second basemen and Perez was already cementing himself as the 'jack of all trades' super sub. I suppose they could have kept Villar as the 'JOAT' but they were looking for a permanent position for a guy with many years of team control that looked to be a future cornerstone. Easy come, easy go.
Quote from: jsglow on September 22, 2018, 11:19:59 AM
Nothing is perfect. There was no indication that Davis and Scooter were going to blossom. And they both had some pretty long leashes in Milwaukee. I will agree that in retrospect Scooter would have been a better keep than Villar but recall that the decision was made in April 2017, immediately after the Villar's breakout 2016 season. Most teams don't keep 2 second basemen and Perez was already cementing himself as the 'jack of all trades' super sub. I suppose they could have kept Villar as the 'JOAT' but they were looking for a permanent position for a guy with many years of team control that looked to be a future cornerstone. Easy come, easy go.
Sterns is definitely the NL Executive of the Year. Billy may beat him out for the MLB EOY, though. Both made the right chess moves with very limited budgets.
Now I will add that they still had minor league options on Scooter. They should have sent him to Colorado Springs and paid his $3.0 million or whatever it was. But I will admit that at the time I was happy to get rid of the contract. Cinci was brilliant in making the claim. Like we were with Agui during that same timeframe.
Quote from: jsglow on September 22, 2018, 12:10:47 PM
Now I will add that they still had minor league options on Scooter. They should have sent him to Colorado Springs and paid his $3.0 million or whatever it was. But I will admit that at the time I was happy to get rid of the contract. Cinci was brilliant in making the claim. Like we were with Agui during that same timeframe.
Theo has his share of bad moves too ;)
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 22, 2018, 11:08:31 AM
Agree. Pretty flawless moves all year. I do ding him on his past moves, though. Segura, Scooter and Davis moves by Sterns were bad, although Chase has been solid in return for Segura you could argue.
Interesting days ahead, though.
Agree on Segura and Gennett. Not so much on Davis. The Brewers dont have he option to DH and he is virtually unplayable in the OF.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on September 22, 2018, 12:18:45 PM
Agree on Segura and Gennett. Not so much on Davis. The Brewers dont have he option to DH and he is virtually unplayable in the OF.
Then, the value they got in return for a MVP candidate was lacking. That's the biggest miss of these three, imo. At the time I was shaking my head even. Chemistry issues? I don't remember any.
https://www.12up.com/posts/6150026-the-brewers-really-blew-it-trading-khris-davis-for-pretty-much-nothing
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 22, 2018, 12:36:44 PM
Then, the value they got in return for a MVP candidate was lacking. That's the biggest miss of these three, imo. At the time I was shaking my head even. Chemistry issues? I don't remember any.
https://www.12up.com/posts/6150026-the-brewers-really-blew-it-trading-khris-davis-for-pretty-much-nothing
Yeah the value is pretty much nothing unless Nottingham pans out soon. I think he will be a backup level MLB catcher but even then the return wasn't enough.
I just don't mourn that loss like Segura/Scooter because he doesn't have a position on an NL team and even if he did, the Brewers OF is great.
I hated Scooter when he was here but he'd sure look great at 2B
I think we all agree that Stearns is batting like .800. Nobody is perfect.
Scooter was an embarrassment in the field and a subpar hitter to put it kindly. No team would trade for him and it took his home team Reds to claim him on waivers. It's great he's put it together at the plate, but he had no business on a major league roster when the decision was made.
The only "mistake" Stearns made was putting him on waivers outright rather than optioning him to AAA. He can't be perfect.
Nobody in the clubhouse shed a tear when Segura left town. He was hated and everyone wanted him gone. Just getting him off the team is a positive.
Wasn't it Jean who had a child that passed away while he was playing in Milwaukee and he needed a change of scenery?
Scooter couldn't hit lefties, wasn't good in the field, and the roids had yet to kick in when he was in Milwaukee.
Khrush could throw the ball about as far as I could, and for an MLB outfielder that's a problem.
Yes, with 20/20 hindsight you'd like to have those guys on your team, but when those players were moved there was little to no thought about it/whether they were going to regret letting those guys go. Davis showed power and Segura had potential that we saw for half a season, but these guys were far from can't miss in Milwaukee.
Quote from: Chili on September 22, 2018, 02:48:38 PM
Nobody in the clubhouse shed a tear when Segura left town. He was hated and everyone wanted him gone. Just getting him off the team is a positive.
His kid died, he got hit in the face with a thrown ball, and Braun smashed him in the face swinging his bat coming out of the dugout. Tough year. I think a change of teams was a win-win. At least they got Chase and $$$.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 22, 2018, 12:06:26 PM
Sterns is definitely the NL Executive of the Year. Billy may beat him out for the MLB EOY, though. Both made the right chess moves with very limited budgets.
Don't be fooled, the Brewers are swimming in positive cash flow. Their baseball operating budget is only self limited, and for a smaller market club, they are doing exceedingly well in profit.
Quote from: jsglow on September 22, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
You know what? I could see Gio be the guy that 'carries' the Crew from a starting pitching prospective in the postseason. And the way they put a butt wuppin' on Harvey the other night was fabulous. Cinci completely overplayed that hand in July August.
Stearns has done a great job, but I'll caution against putting too much hope in "good Gio" sticking around for a full playoff run. The move is already a net positive just with his past couple starts, but Gio has been as inconsistent a pitcher as there is over the past 4-5 years - and "bad Gio" tends to be an unmitigated disaster.
Villar has out hit Schoop since the trade with an OPS about 200 points higher and Villar provides better defense.
Hopefully Schoop has a strong 2019.
Phew...some breathing room. El Mago being El Mago. 6 to win, 3 for WC.
Tough night for the Brewers. Can't shake the Pirates Vex.
(https://nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/671322240.jpg?w=610&h=343&crop=1)
Clutch loss for the Sox tonight with the Marlins & Tigers winning. The fight for #3 is going to come down to the last day. Hoping the Brewers rest as many people against the Tigers next weekend. Tomorrow will be key with the Tigers/Fish having winnable games.
Don't think I've seen a 3 run wild pitch until today.
Nice to see Knebel cruising again. I said many a harsh word about him during the course of the season but he's been lights out since returning from AAA. 10.1 IP, 0 runs, 2 hits, 2 walks, 18 Ks.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 23, 2018, 06:49:39 PM
Don't think I've seen a 3 run wild pitch until today.
Nice to see Knebel cruising again. I said many a harsh word about him during the course of the season but he's been lights out since returning from AAA. 10.1 IP, 0 runs, 2 hits, 2 walks, 18 Ks.
Knebel has been lights out. Whatever it was, I'm glad they took the time to straighten it out.
That was a successful weekend. Need a solid stay in STL to tie this down.
Quote from: jsglow on September 23, 2018, 07:06:57 PM
Need a solid stay in STL to tie this down.
The Devilbird is playing pretty good ball, Brother Glow. I would not be so sure!
Go Cards 8-)
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2017, 03:17:15 PM
Tigers are going to be bad. Not historically bad. They won 43 games in 2003. But 90-100 loss bad. And they will make a deal for virtually anyone on the roster. Fullmer, Castellanos, make an offer. Basically, they want to blow it up and start on their own 5-7 year plan.
Anyone who follows baseball knew this was coming. But I am feeling good about the 90-100 loss prediction.
Quote from: tower912 on September 24, 2018, 07:10:40 AM
Anyone who follows baseball knew this was coming. But I am feeling good about the 90-100 loss prediction.
As a Tigers fan (as I am) I don't know how you can "feel good" about predicting 90-100 losses. Yeah, everybody knew it was coning, no great insight there. You were pretty far off on your 'trade everyone" forecast. Besides relatively modest deals for Martin and Fiers, the Tigers were (for better or worse) quiet at the trade deadline.
They were all available. Nobody wanted them. Fulmer has spent the year hurt and is 3-12. Castellanos had a nice season offensively, but statistically is a worse defensive outfielder than Schwarber. Nobody bit on Iglesias or Greene. Everybody else on the team is basically a AAA level player. Actually impressed that they competed hard in almost every game.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 23, 2018, 09:37:16 PM
The Devilbird is playing pretty good ball, Brother Glow. I would not be so sure!
Go Cards 8-)
They're hanging in there, no doubt. I'm expecting a WC game at Miller next week. But the Cards do need to be careful here. Six games against playoff teams to finish. 4-2 would be outstanding and probably enough to hold off Colorado. 3-3? Maybe not. The Crew has the luxury of finishing against Detroit where 2/3 should be expected, at least.
Quote from: jsglow on September 24, 2018, 09:19:46 AM
They're hanging in there, no doubt. I'm expecting a WC game at Miller next week. But the Cards do need to be careful here. Six games against playoff teams to finish. 4-2 would be outstanding and probably enough to hold off Colorado. 3-3? Maybe not. The Crew has the luxury of finishing against Detroit where 2/3 should be expected, at least.
7 at home against the Phillies and Nationals, Brewers and Cardinals along with Dodgers still have work to do.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on March 28, 2018, 03:28:08 PM
Opening Day tomorrow
PECOTA projections for 2018:
AL East
NYY 97-65
BOS 89-73
TB 83-79
TOR 79-83
BAL 70-92
AL Central
CLE 96-66
MIN 82-80
CWS 72-90
DET 68-94
KC 65-97
AL West
HOU 99-63
SEA 82-80
LAA 79-83
OAK 76-96
TEX 75-87
NL East
WSH 88-74
PHI 81-81
NYM 80-82
ATL 76-86
MIA 65-97
NL Central
CHC 91-71
STL 85-77
MIL 84-78
PIT 78-84
CIN 75-87
NL West
LAD 97-65
ARZ 87-75
SFG 83-79
COL 78-84
SD 73-89
I always think it's interesting to revisit PECOTA Projections.
The program had the AL Playoff teams as: NYY, BOS, CLE, MIN, HOU (they overestimated the Twins and missed the A's).
The program had the NL Playoff teams as: WSH, CHC, STL, LAD, and ARZ (they overestimated the Nats and DBacks, and missed the Brewers and the Braves).
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 24, 2018, 10:35:12 AM
I always think it's interesting to revisit PECOTA Projections.
The program had the AL Playoff teams as: NYY, BOS, CLE, MIN, HOU (they overestimated the Twins and missed the A's).
The program had the NL Playoff teams as: WSH, CHC, STL, LAD, and ARZ (they overestimated the Nats and DBacks, and missed the Brewers and the Braves).
The Twins?
Were lots of prognosticators actually expecting big things from them?
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 24, 2018, 10:35:12 AM
I always think it's interesting to revisit PECOTA Projections.
The program had the AL Playoff teams as: NYY, BOS, CLE, MIN, HOU (they overestimated the Twins and missed the A's).
The program had the NL Playoff teams as: WSH, CHC, STL, LAD, and ARZ (they overestimated the Nats and DBacks, and missed the Brewers and the Braves).
Crazy thing is that their biggest misses record wise are the Orioles and Red Sox. The Os already have 18 more losses than they projected and still have 7 games to go. The Sox already have 16 more wins than projected with 6 games still to go. That's how high the highs have been and how low the lows have been.
Also, all four of the Cubs, Brewers, Cardinals, and Pirates should outplay their projected records. Central strong!
Quote from: MU82 on September 24, 2018, 11:02:56 AM
The Twins?
Were lots of prognosticators actually expecting big things from them?
Yeah. I believe they were widely predicted to make the playoffs. Most prognosticators seemed to predict the same playoff teams as last year for the AL.
The Dodgers are 58-38 in games in which Justin Turner plays. They are 30-31 in games without him.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 24, 2018, 10:35:12 AM
I always think it's interesting to revisit PECOTA Projections.
The program had the AL Playoff teams as: NYY, BOS, CLE, MIN, HOU (they overestimated the Twins and missed the A's).
The program had the NL Playoff teams as: WSH, CHC, STL, LAD, and ARZ (they overestimated the Nats and DBacks, and missed the Brewers and the Braves).
Actually, if those were the records they projected, then Tampa Bay would have been the second wild card, not Minnesota. I'm amazed at what Tampa Bay is able to do while spending no money. I hate that opener idea of theirs, but it is smart and everyone will be using it in the next few years when they are not starting a very good pitcher.
One thing I hope MLB never does is expand the roster to 26 because there are too many pitchers now. While all these flamethrowers throwing 98 for one inning is effective, it is not entertaining.
If it makes people feel any better, the Cardinals now have a worse record than either of the two other division leaders.
Meanwhile, the Brewers refuse to go away ... and the Cubbies refuse to score more than (or less than) 1 run in games against the Pirates!
The Pirates are pesky. The Brewers know that much too well. That is the team that is "decent," not the Reds.
The problem for the Brewers is that if the Cubs go 3-3 the Brewers need to go 4-1 just to force a one game playoff for the division winner, and that would be at Wrigley. The Brewers could go 4-1 (split the last 2 with the Cards, sweep the Tigers at home to close out the season), but to win it outright I don't think the Cubs are going 2-4 down the stretch.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 25, 2018, 08:35:17 AM
The Pirates are pesky. The Brewers know that much too well. That is the team that is "decent," not the Reds.
The problem for the Brewers is that if the Cubs go 3-3 the Brewers need to go 4-1 just to force a one game playoff for the division winner, and that would be at Wrigley. The Brewers could go 4-1 (split the last 2 with the Cards, sweep the Tigers at home to close out the season), but to win it outright I don't think the Cubs are going 2-4 down the stretch.
Anything is possible. It may come down to the extra game the Cubs have to play.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 25, 2018, 08:35:17 AM
The Pirates are pesky. The Brewers know that much too well. That is the team that is "decent," not the Reds.
The problem for the Brewers is that if the Cubs go 3-3 the Brewers need to go 4-1 just to force a one game playoff for the division winner, and that would be at Wrigley. The Brewers could go 4-1 (split the last 2 with the Cards, sweep the Tigers at home to close out the season), but to win it outright I don't think the Cubs are going 2-4 down the stretch.
(http://g.redditmedia.com/QlVUX4yRFWatYa8no-Yx12QgDUm6pxdkL3Mg_9jX-cs.gif?w=320&s=9191597732d67409bf094482f027b9c1)
Did anyone hear the official ruling from Cardinals fans on whether Jennings' 3-pitch start was acceptable by baseball standards?
Hopefully the answer is no, as I'm looking forward to seeing a few runs scored on HBP's tonight.
Quote from: Benny B on September 25, 2018, 09:59:19 AM
Did anyone hear the official ruling from Cardinals fans on whether Jennings' 3-pitch start was acceptable by baseball standards?
Hopefully the answer is no, as I'm looking forward to seeing a few runs scored on HBP's tonight.
It's only acceptable for Cardinal fans if Jennings also received an OWI last night.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 25, 2018, 10:13:16 AM
It's only acceptable for Cardinal fans if Jennings also received an OWI last night.
+1
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 25, 2018, 09:38:49 AM
Anything is possible. It may come down to the extra game the Cubs have to play.
I heard they had to play seven games in seven hours on Thursday
Quote from: Jockey on September 25, 2018, 10:23:24 AM
I heard they had to play seven games in seven hours on Thursday
In slightly chilly weather.
jsonline is doing a good job covering the 'magic number' issue. What struck me was that before last night's game the Crew needed 10 positive out of a possible 13 outcomes to pass the Cubs. Now it's down to a mere 8/11. It simply shows how hard climbing the hill is.
The same can be said about someone catching the Crew for the #1 W/C. Is it possible? Sure, but very, very unlikely, especially after last night's win.
Discussion on MVP in the NL?
A 2 man race. Yelich has slightly better numbers almost across the board. Baez has the "splash".
The number that puts Yelich over the top for me is 43. Yelich has been on base 43 times more than Baez despite just 9 more plate appearances.
Getting on base is goal #1 when batting - which translates to making fewer outs.
Quote from: Jockey on September 25, 2018, 11:07:14 AM
Discussion on MVP in the NL?
A 2 man race. Yelich has slightly better numbers almost across the board. Baez has the "splash".
The number that puts Yelich over the top for me is 43. Yelich has been on base 43 times more than Baez despite just 9 more plate appearances.
Getting on base is goal #1 when batting - which translates to making fewer outs.
Is hitting the only factor? Defense? Baserunning? Errors? Etc
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 25, 2018, 11:08:43 AM
Is hitting the only factor? Defense? Baserunning? Errors? Etc
Tagging and sliding may loom large in this one.
Yelich deserves it.
Baez will get it.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 25, 2018, 11:14:04 AM
Yelich deserves it.
Baez will get it.
Yelich deserves it. Yelich will get it.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 25, 2018, 11:08:43 AM
Is hitting the only factor? Defense? Baserunning? Errors? Etc
If defense is a factor, Arenado would have won it the last 3 years, and would this year as well.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
If defense is a factor, Arenado would have won it the last 3 years, and would this year as well.
Is his batting on par with Baez and Yelich?
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 25, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
If defense is a factor, Arenado would have won it the last 3 years, and would this year as well.
Is being the 2nd best defensive 3B in MLB good enough to put you over the top for MVP?
But, realistically, he should be in the conversation every year.
Quote from: Jockey on September 25, 2018, 12:04:59 PM
Is being the 2nd best defensive 3B in MLB good enough to put you over the top for MVP?
But, realistically, he should be in the conversation every year.
He and Matt Chapman were HS teammates. Holy moly, try squeezing a hit through that infield.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 25, 2018, 11:08:43 AM
Is hitting the only factor? Defense? Baserunning? Errors? Etc
To a lesser extent than hitting, yes.
But unless you are Ozzie Smith-like on 'D', it is not a huge factor.
Baez and Yelich are among best base runners in NL so that doesn't factor in.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 25, 2018, 12:08:39 PM
He and Matt Chapman were HS teammates. Holy moly, try squeezing a hit through that infield.
I didn't know that. I'm guessing the LF'er didn't field too many ground balls.
Arenado gets knocked down a bit for the Coors factor, but he's stupid good. His splits warrant a bit of a demerit, but they aren't extreme - 20 HRs vs 14 and .346 vs .248 in about 30 more home ABs.
The average drop is significant but you have to hedge that against the fact that his away parks are all damn tough for right handed hitters. SF, SD, and LAD are 3 of the 9 worst parks for right handers, and Ariz got significantly tougher with the humidor. For example, Goldschmidt, who also hits right handed at home this year vs last year: 12 HRs, .241 vs 20 HRs, .321. His away numbers are actually up by almost as much last year to this year, so the home numbers aren't just due to general decline.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 25, 2018, 11:14:04 AM
Yelich deserves it.
Baez will get it.
Does Baez move around the infield like Yelich does in the OF, as far as positions? Honestly don't know regarding Baez.Yelich moves from LF to RF to CF without missing a beat. According to baseball-reference.com, Yelich has played 85 games in LF, 21 in CF and 69 in RF. I'm guessing that doesn't include games where he moves mid-game.
Baez has played 104 games at 2B, 22 at 3B and 58 at SS. 1 at 1B.
Both are only counting 2018 seasons.
Quote from: Jockey on September 25, 2018, 12:11:23 PM
To a lesser extent than hitting, yes.
But unless you are Ozzie Smith-like on 'D', it is not a huge factor.
Baez and Yelich are among best base runners in NL so that doesn't factor in.
This. Along the lines of why pitchers are rarely considered for MVP (they have the Cy Young award) - and to a lesser extent why rookies are rarely contenders for MVP or Cy Young (ROY Award) - is why defense rarely factors into MVP discussion... there's already an award specifically for defense.
That said, defense is more important to the MVP award than it is to the Silver Slugger award.
https://www.barstoolsports.com/baseball/milwaukee-brewers-fans-your-t-shirts-have-arrived
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 25, 2018, 03:47:47 PM
https://www.barstoolsports.com/baseball/milwaukee-brewers-fans-your-t-shirts-have-arrived
I refuse to click on brotastic, misogynistic BS websites, can you tell me what the shirts are?
Quote from: mu03eng on September 25, 2018, 04:02:46 PM
I refuse to click on brotastic, misogynistic BS websites, can you tell me what the shirts are?
There are a LOT of websites that you must refuse to visit then
I have no stake in barstool, but I do appreciate some of their blogs/podcasts
Quote from: mu03eng on September 25, 2018, 04:02:46 PM
I refuse to click on brotastic, misogynistic BS websites, can you tell me what the shirts are?
(https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/25/unnamed_3.png)
(https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/25/Locain-Navy2_1_2.png)
(https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/25/ShawMayor-Navy.png)
(https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/25/FearTheBeer-Navy.png)
Not sure if being mayor of Ding Dong City is something to aspire to.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on September 25, 2018, 04:14:00 PM
Not sure if being mayor of Ding Dong City is something to aspire to.
Probably a loftier position than a pimp in Ho-Ho town.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 25, 2018, 04:06:30 PM
There are a LOT of websites that you must refuse to visit then
I have no stake in barstool, but I do appreciate some of their blogs/podcasts
Given what the head clown, Dave Portney repeatedly posts and says, forgive me if I have a very clear vision on what the core of Barstool is. Can't say anything of the same with other sports websites.
Give him the MVP.
Forget what I just said. Can we give NL MVP to Derek Jeter?
Exec of da year, aina?
Quote from: mu03eng on September 25, 2018, 06:42:23 PM
Given what the head clown, Dave Portney repeatedly posts and says, forgive me if I have a very clear vision on what the core of Barstool is. Can't say anything of the same with other sports websites.
How quickly you've forgotten what Deadspin did forever before deciding to become the moral compass of the internet in the last 18 months. Barstool isn't without faults, but their vocal opponents take things out of context, conveniently ignore the hundred of thousands of dollars (if not 1MM+) they've donated to fallen officers or kids with medical conditions, or great relationships they have with many in sports and media (male and female, all races) who actually know and interact with them on a regular and personal basis and understand that not every word on the internet is meant to be literal truth.
The real issue is the hordes of anonymous commenters who are fans of the site who take things too far. They could do probablymore, but are a sports organization responsible for their fans being offensive or abusive? They can at least ban them from stadiums, BSS can't do more than police their own comment section and ask people to not attack others online (which they have done just as much as encouraging them to "defend the wall"). Their engagement with their fanbase is a large reason for their growing influence, but can also be a dangerous powderkeg.
Also, El Pres is a character, I challenge you to find someone with a negative interaction with Dave Portnoy the civilian. Its like branding Dwayne Johnson an evil b***ard cause you didn't like the Rock.
Back on topic, my god the Pirates are annoying.
Ryno is getting hot at the right time! 3 homers in last 2 games.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 25, 2018, 09:58:53 PM
How quickly you've forgotten what Deadspin did forever before deciding to become the moral compass of the internet in the last 18 months. Barstool isn't without faults, but their vocal opponents take things out of context, conveniently ignore the hundred of thousands of dollars (if not 1MM+) they've donated to fallen officers or kids with medical conditions, or great relationships they have with many in sports and media (male and female, all races) who actually know and interact with them on a regular and personal basis and understand that not every word on the internet is meant to be literal truth.
The real issue is the hordes of anonymous commenters who are fans of the site who take things too far. They could do probablymore, but are a sports organization responsible for their fans being offensive or abusive? They can at least ban them from stadiums, BSS can't do more than police their own comment section and ask people to not attack others online (which they have done just as much as encouraging them to "defend the wall"). Their engagement with their fanbase is a large reason for their growing influence, but can also be a dangerous powderkeg.
Also, El Pres is a character, I challenge you to find someone with a negative interaction with Dave Portnoy the civilian. Its like branding Dwayne Johnson an evil b***ard cause you didn't like the Rock.
Back on topic, my god the Pirates are annoying.
Think Deadspin is garbage too for similar reasons. And I dont care if you are a character if you routinely attack female journalists by calling them f'ing sluts and the c word, doxing people, and inciting their followers to go after people online you are a garbage human being
Yelich. So hot right now. Yelich.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 25, 2018, 10:33:28 PM
Yelich. So hot right now. Yelich.
Cancel my earlier discussion about NL MVP.
IT'S OVER!!
MVP race just ended, congrats to Yelich.
Lol, intentionally walk Cain to get to the MVP??
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on September 25, 2018, 10:37:18 PM
Lol, intentionally walk Cain to get to the MVP??
Someone explain the Cards' reserve manager's logic to me. The worst Cain will do is double in a run in a game that's already out of control. Why let Yelich just blow the GD lid off
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on September 25, 2018, 10:37:18 PM
Lol, intentionally walk Cain to get to the MVP??
It's almost like they were under temporary management or something
Quote from: mu03eng on September 25, 2018, 10:43:22 PM
It's almost like they were under temporary management or something
Did they pick a drunk fan out of the stands?
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 25, 2018, 10:33:28 PM
Yelich. So hot right now. Yelich.
Lol. This was my first thought as well.
Give that man the MVP. He's earned it.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 25, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Think Deadspin is garbage too for similar reasons. And I dont care if you are a character if you routinely attack female journalists by calling them f'ing sluts and the c word, doxing people, and inciting their followers to go after people online you are a garbage human being
You just said you can't say the same of other sports websites ?-( And far worse stuff has went on at ESPN if we want to go there. Some of the statements are indefensible and horribly worded, but I think there is a misperception of Barstool's MO and their supposed proactive aggression.
Worth reading IMO https://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/why-i-refuse-to-remain-silent-when-critics-idiots-and-hypocrites-lie-and-manipulate-the-truth-about-barstool-sports
Oh and Yelich is out of his damn mind right now. What a monster. Also a big Barstool ally, FWIW ;D
Quote from: mu03eng on September 25, 2018, 11:01:06 PM
So...LaRusso?
He said the stands, not a car idling at the intersection outside the stadium
Quote from: JWags85 on September 25, 2018, 10:49:11 PM
You just said you can't say the same of other sports websites ?-( And far worse stuff has went on at ESPN if we want to go there. Some of the statements are indefensible and horribly worded, but I think there is a misperception of Barstool's MO and their supposed proactive aggression.
Worth reading IMO https://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/why-i-refuse-to-remain-silent-when-critics-idiots-and-hypocrites-lie-and-manipulate-the-truth-about-barstool-sports
Oh and Yelich is out of his damn mind right now. What a monster. Also a big Barstool ally, FWIW ;D
Fair, guess I meant websites generally not just sports websites. Barstool just rubs me as extremely toxic but agree to disagree....except on Yelich, that dude is an MVP for sho
That is a brutal Sox win, absolutely brutal. Down 4-2 in 9th, Tigers won, Padres winning, Marlins lost. I know the players don't care, but that one hurt.
This time tomorrow, the Crew could be leading in the Division race. Things are getting really interesting.
Also, with the win the Brewers clinched a .500 record (or better) against the NL Central (and every other division they played). Crazy that they could win the division but are currently only 1 win above .500 against their division-mates
Cubs' 4-game wraparound series against the Cardinals is going to be a lot of fun to watch this weekend.
This if fun. Go Brewers!
Quote from: Benny B on September 26, 2018, 12:12:15 AM
Cubs' 4-game wraparound series against the Cardinals is going to be a lot of fun to watch this weekend.
True dat. And now the Cards are absolutely battling for their life. And while most of us focus on the games here in the midwest, the fact that the NL West is totally up for grabs and the loser of that battle might not make the playoffs makes for some great late night ball.
And for you Cubs fans out there, 12-11 since September 1 isn't exactly prepping for the World Series.
Quote from: jsglow on September 26, 2018, 07:02:32 AM
True dat. And now the Cards are absolutely battling for their life. And while most of us focus on the games here in the midwest, the fact that the NL West is totally up for grabs and the loser of that battle might not make the playoffs makes for some great late night ball.
And for you Cubs fans out there, 12-11 since September 1 isn't exactly prepping for the World Series.
Ugh...now Bryant out. The Cubs bats are heavy. Doesn't look good.
Quote from: Benny B on September 26, 2018, 12:12:15 AM
Cubs' 4-game wraparound series against the Cardinals is going to be a lot of fun to watch this weekend.
Well they have 2 more vs the Pirates and then 3 vs the Cards but still gonna be fun
Quote from: The Deane Team on September 26, 2018, 07:19:26 AM
Well they have 2 more vs the Pirates and then 3 vs the Cards but still gonna be fun
I think Benny was insinuating that the Cubs are going to end up playing the Cardinals in the Wild Card game
So anyone know what the betting line is on a St Louis pitcher beaning Yelich today?
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
So anyone know what the betting line is on a St Louis pitcher beaning Yelich today?
Maybe a good time to give Yelich the day off.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
So anyone know what the betting line is on a St Louis pitcher beaning Yelich today?
Go for it. That'll be the Card's version of 'Your mother wears army boots.' I won't complain if it's in the butt or thigh. But if there's any chance of injury, numerous suspensions should be handed down by MLB. And if the Cards want to go home Sunday, that's a good way to guarantee it.
#MVP
#Crew
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
So anyone know what the betting line is on a St Louis pitcher beaning Yelich today?
Why?
Quote from: GB Warrior on September 25, 2018, 10:42:27 PM
Someone explain the Cards' reserve manager's logic to me. The worst Cain will do is double in a run in a game that's already out of control. Why let Yelich just blow the GD lid off
I'm assuming to go lefty v. lefty, but that's ignoring the fact that he hits lefties pretty darn good.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 23, 2018, 09:37:16 PM
The Devilbird is playing pretty good ball, Brother Glow. I would not be so sure!
Go Cards 8-)
I just had to go back a couple pages and refresh this for my friend dgies. :)
#Crew
(Rivalries are fun, aren't they.) :)
Things are getting verrrrrry interesting.
After today's games, Brewers get a nice day off while Cubbies will again have to play a Pittsburgh team that has stoned their bats most of the season. Then, while Brewers finish with 3 vs Tigers, Cubbies have to contend with a desperate Cardinals team.
Verrrrrrry interesting.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 26, 2018, 08:49:25 AM
I'm assuming to go lefty v. lefty, but that's ignoring the fact that he hits lefties pretty darn good.
It absolutely was but the whole team took it personally. I wasn't watching but apparently the chatter from the Brewers dugout prior to the at bat was 'classic'. If you watch the clip, Yeli stood at home plate and watched it prior to his trot while M-V-P chorused down. Beautiful.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 26, 2018, 08:48:29 AM
Why?
Because the Cards are the keepers of the secret rules of baseball that include beaning the best opposing player to send a message to the ump because you were sad about a call that was made the game before. And because Yelich showboated for a nanosecond and that is never to be tolerated. Obvi
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 08:59:49 AM
Because the Cards are the keepers of the secret rules of baseball that include beaning the best opposing player to send a message to the ump because you were sad about a call that was made the game before. And because Yelich showboated for a nanosecond and that is never to be tolerated. Obvi
If the pitcher trying to bean him loses control of the ball, it hits Yeli in the head and it kills him ... boy will the Brewers ever have learned their lesson! That'll show them!
Unwritten baseball rules ... yay!
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs (https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs)
#MVP
#ThisisMyCrew
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 08:59:49 AM
Because the Cards are the keepers of the secret rules of baseball that include beaning the best opposing player to send a message to the ump because you were sad about a call that was made the game before. And because Yelich showboated for a nanosecond and that is never to be tolerated. Obvi
Am I to understand the Brewers would never throw at a guy?
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 09:23:08 AM
Am I to understand the Brewers would never throw at a guy?
I'm sure you can find exceptions, but the Brewers rarely seem to engage in that nonsense.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 09:23:08 AM
Am I to understand the Brewers would never throw at a guy?
Only the Sith deal in absolutes
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 09:21:09 AM
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs (https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs)
#MVP
#ThisisMyCrew
Loved when he flexed on them and yelled "Let's go!" into the dugout after that triple last night.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 08:59:49 AM
Because the Cards are the keepers of the secret rules of baseball that include beaning the best opposing player to send a message to the ump because you were sad about a call that was made the game before. And because Yelich showboated for a nanosecond and that is never to be tolerated. Obvi
Can't Molina just spit on him instead? That's Ok in the Big Book of Cardinal Rules.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 09:32:41 AM
Only the Sith deal in absolutes
So in other words, of course they have and will do it again.
I think this stuff gets hung around the Cardinals neck a lot, but all teams participate.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 26, 2018, 08:49:25 AM
I'm assuming to go lefty v. lefty, but that's ignoring the fact that he hits lefties pretty darn good.
I saw Cain hits lefties at .380. However, I'd probably take my chances with Cain since it is most likely a single or double if he gets a hit.
Quote from: jsglow on September 26, 2018, 07:02:32 AM
True dat. And now the Cards are absolutely battling for their life. And while most of us focus on the games here in the midwest, the fact that the NL West is totally up for grabs and the loser of that battle might not make the playoffs makes for some great late night ball.
And for you Cubs fans out there, 12-11 since September 1 isn't exactly prepping for the World Series.
Late night? The brewers games are keeping me up plenty late.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 09:21:09 AM
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs (https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs)
#MVP
#ThisisMyCrew
lots of good stuff there, like this:
And as much as I love playing in Miller Park, I almost enjoy playing the Cubs more when we're on the road. I like going into that hostile territory. Getting booed and screamed at ... that does something to you, man. It starts during batting practice, too — Cubs fans let you hear it — and it doesn't stop until the game is over.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 09:51:30 AM
So in other words, of course they have and will do it again.
I think this stuff gets hung around the Cardinals neck a lot, but all teams participate.
::)
I realize that the MUScoop Cubs fans have gone into hiding from this thread ever since they *conveniently* realized that "Brewers fans bring out the worst in them" (it was just coincidental timing that this realization came right after the Brewers really tightened up the NL Central race by winning the series at Wrigley), so this will fall on deaf ears (until the Cubs beat either the Brewers or Cardinals in the NLDS), but yeesh are Joe Maddon's comments on the Russell situation disturbing. He hasn't and won't read it and won't be swayed either way until an investigation is complete because anybody can write anything on the internet.
Keep it classy, Joe.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 26, 2018, 10:14:21 AM
::)
In light of this very valuable information, I have changed my position and agree that the Cardinals are the bad guys and no other team would ever take part in nonsensical unwritten rules.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 10:25:04 AM
In light of this very valuable information, I have changed my position and agree that the Cardinals are the bad guys and no other team would ever take part in nonsensical unwritten rules.
You don't think there's a reason that "this stuff gets hung around the Cardinals neck a lot?"
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 10:25:04 AM
In light of this very valuable information, I have changed my position and agree that the Cardinals are the bad guys and no other team would ever take part in nonsensical unwritten rules.
To be fair, LaRussa and Matheny didn't really hide the fact that they threw at guys for a number of reasons. A lot of teams do it, but I don't think it's a secret that the Cardinals did it more than most under those guys.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 26, 2018, 10:28:05 AM
To be fair, LaRussa and Matheny didn't really hide the fact that they threw at guys for a number of reasons. A lot of teams do it, but I don't think it's a secret that the Cardinals did it more than most under those guys.
Sure, that's fair. Though neither guy is there now. But there are 29 other teams that do it, granted to different degrees, but everyone does it.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 26, 2018, 10:26:28 AM
You don't think there's a reason that "this stuff gets hung around the Cardinals neck a lot?"
I think we say Cardinals when we really mean LaRussa. He was just baseball's version of JayBee.
Matheny did it too, but he was just a brutally bad manager who worshipped LaRussa.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 10:25:04 AM
In light of this very valuable information, I have changed my position and agree that the Cardinals are the bad guys and no other team would ever take part in nonsensical unwritten rules.
Only the sith deal in absolutes?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 26, 2018, 08:03:59 AM
I think Benny was insinuating that the Cubs are going to end up playing the Cardinals in the Wild Card game
SMH. Thanks for ruining it, ruiner.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 26, 2018, 10:24:57 AM
I realize that the MUScoop Cubs fans have gone into hiding from this thread ever since they *conveniently* realized that "Brewers fans bring out the worst in them" (it was just coincidental timing that this realization came right after the Brewers really tightened up the NL Central race by winning the series at Wrigley), so this will fall on deaf ears (until the Cubs beat either the Brewers or Cardinals in the NLDS), but yeesh are Joe Maddon's comments on the Russell situation disturbing. He hasn't and won't read it and won't be swayed either way until an investigation is complete because anybody can write anything on the internet.
Keep it classy, Joe.
Some of us are still here. I just tend not to post (not sure I've even posted in this thread yet). Two things: 1) Yes, very disturbing. Nothing else to really say. I think baseball is handling it correctly.
2) For those saying that this is "getting interesting" - The way the Cubs offense has looked this month, I'm not sure it's that interesting. I think the Brewers and Cubs go into the weekend series tied (Brewers win today and Cubs split the next two with Pittsburgh) and I think the Brewers win the division by 1-2 games (sweep Detroit, Cubs win 1 or 2 against STL). Cubs could host Colorado or LAD and be done by this time next week.
Quote from: copious1218 on September 26, 2018, 10:55:28 AM
Some of us are still here. I just tend not to post (not sure I've even posted in this thread yet). Two things: 1) Yes, very disturbing. Nothing else to really say. I think baseball is handling it correctly.
2) For those saying that this is "getting interesting" - The way the Cubs offense has looked this month, I'm not sure it's that interesting. I think the Brewers and Cubs go into the weekend series tied (Brewers win today and Cubs split the next two with Pittsburgh) and I think the Brewers win the division by 1-2 games (sweep Detroit, Cubs win 1 or 2 against STL). Cubs could host Colorado or LAD and be done by this time next week.
I hope you're right on #2. As a Brewers fan, it's tough to believe we will continue our success in the Playoffs until I see it.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 10:45:02 AM
Sure, that's fair. Though neither guy is there now. But there are 29 other teams that do it, granted to different degrees, but everyone does it.
It's not a "nobody else does it thing" it's a "nobody has been as flagrant or as in your face about it" kind of thing. Maybe the Cardinals aren't doing it as much now, but if you've been an a-hole about it for 20 years previously you shouldn't be surprised when that reputation continues to haunt you.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 26, 2018, 10:56:33 AM
I hope you're right on #2. As a Brewers fan, it's tough to believe we will continue our success in the Playoffs until I see it.
On paper there isn't anything to say the Brewers can't continue it, especially as they would have homefield through out if they win the division. However, games aren't played on paper....they're played in television sets. Anywho, I think I'm most concerned about the team(especially pitching) getting tight in the playoffs because from manager on down we have little to no playoff experience. At some point that is going to matter.
Ideal scenario is win the division, Cubs lose to Rockies because I absolutely do not want to see the Cubs in the playoffs with their experience and Maddon at the helm. Though I will say, if the Brewers play a seven game series against the Cubs the Miller Park games will be awesome because I think Brewer fans will actually soak up those tickets instead of selling.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 26, 2018, 10:56:33 AM
As a Brewers fan, it's tough to believe we will continue our success in the Playoffs until I see it.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 11:00:33 AM
I think I'm most concerned about the team(especially pitching) getting tight in the playoffs because from manager on down we have little to no playoff experience. At some point that is going to matter.
This team just doesn't
feel like a great team, you know? I think Stearns, CC and the Crew are a little ahead of the curve on three true outcome baseball and the primacy of a strong bullpen over SPs, but my subjective lizard brain is just too slow to keep up/believe it when its the 5th inning and I'm on my third High Life.
I actually think the Brewers are very good, and that only the Dodgers might be a better team in the NL this season. I think Stearns did an outstanding job of adding a number of very professional hitters who will grind out at bats and give you positive at bats even if they result in an out, which is what you need from your offense in the Postseason. There will also be a number of good options off the bench to pinch hit late in games in the Playoffs. And the bullpen is about as good as it gets, which in my opinion is more important than starters going into the Postseason.
Just mentally as a Brewers fan I have a hard time getting myself excited about the possibilities of even winning the division. My mind just tells me, "Knowing the Brewers, they'll complete the sweep of the Cards, the Cubs will get swept by the Pirates, and then the Brewers will drop 2 of 3 at home to the Tigers."
I'm with you. Statistically and rationally, they're a legit contender. Its the combo of Brewers history, and that this team was put together so differently than the 2011 team that has made it harder for me to feel all in. That 2011 team had the top end SPs that psychologically legitimizes a contender - even if statistically, you're no worse off if you have a bullpen like MKE's. Using the cobbled together rotation and leaning on the bullpen might be no worse a strategy, it just feels more hand to mouth. And the lineup of the 2011 team was so homegrown, it + Tony Plush gave it a very "team of destiny" feel (shut up, dgies).
Quote from: MU82 on September 26, 2018, 08:54:14 AM
Things are getting verrrrrry interesting.
After today's games, Brewers get a nice day off while Cubbies will again have to play a Pittsburgh team that has stoned their bats most of the season. Then, while Brewers finish with 3 vs Tigers, Cubbies have to contend with a desperate Cardinals team.
Verrrrrrry interesting.
The Cubs had every opportunity to put this to bed over the past month. Those two series against the Brewers coupled with crapping the bed against mediocre teams has killed their momentum. I'm expecting the AL champ to win the WS regardless, but they certainly aren't going into the playoffs with the look of a title contender.
But hey, the 2006 Cards won the World Series after a miserable September, so who knows?
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 26, 2018, 11:18:17 AM
I'm with you. Statistically and rationally, they're a legit contender. Its the combo of Brewers history, and that this team was put together so differently than the 2011 team that has made it harder for me to feel all in. That 2011 team had the top end SPs that psychologically legitimizes a contender - even if statistically, you're no worse off if you have a bullpen like MKE's. Using the cobbled together rotation and leaning on the bullpen might be no worse a strategy, it just feels more hand to mouth. And the lineup of the 2011 team was so homegrown, it + Tony Plush gave it a very "team of destiny" feel (shut up, dgies).
I think the difference is that the bullpen approach requires a high level of faith that the manager can pull the right strings at the right time and the players can deliver. I'm not CC can't do that, but there is nothing to say that All-Star Break CC can't show up during the playoffs as opposed to May/September CC
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 11:00:33 AM
Anywho, I think I'm most concerned about the team(especially pitching) getting tight in the playoffs because from manager on down we have little to no playoff experience. At some point that is going to matter.
https://www.youtube.com/v/qvZtn5jwZ1Y
https://www.youtube.com/v/2FR5c8p1GCI
https://www.youtube.com/v/BsdA1zzR0Ng
https://www.mlb.com/news/craig-counsell-is-d-backs-unlikely-2001-hero/c-295719092
Quote from: Benny B on September 26, 2018, 11:26:36 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/qvZtn5jwZ1Y
https://www.youtube.com/v/2FR5c8p1GCI
https://www.youtube.com/v/BsdA1zzR0Ng
My bad, didn't realize he was calling his own number and managing the pen there.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 11:23:22 AM
I think the difference is that the bullpen approach requires a high level of faith that the manager can pull the right strings at the right time and the players can deliver. I'm not CC can't do that, but there is nothing to say that All-Star Break CC can't show up during the playoffs as opposed to May/September CC
I think the first half of August CC was the bad CC. September has been great. The Brewers are 15-7 in September and have 10 of the last 11 series, including this series with the Cards.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 11:27:56 AM
My bad, didn't realize he was calling his own number and managing the pen there.
Given, but he has postseason experience. The guy went to Notre Dame, so he's obviously smarter than anyone else in MLB... one would presume he picked up a few things via observation at some point during an extensive post-season career.
CY, hey?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/26/sports/milwaukee-brewers-christian-yelich.html
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs
Let me just reiterate that no matter whether the Brewers (yes) or Cubs (no) win the division, it is a travesty that loser has a one game play-in to the real playoffs.
I freaking hate the 2nd wild card.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 26, 2018, 11:53:40 AM
CY, hey?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/26/sports/milwaukee-brewers-christian-yelich.html
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/christian-yelich-brewers-playoffs
The "case" for Yelich as MVP should be closed. He's really the only option. If he doesn't get it he got completely jobbed.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 26, 2018, 12:02:50 PM
Let me just reiterate that no matter whether the Brewers (yes) or Cubs (no) win the division, it is a travesty that loser has a one game play-in to the real playoffs.
I freaking hate the 2nd wild card.
This. Let's just take the Cards for example. Haven't the Crew and Cubs demonstrated their superiority over 162? The fact that they get a 'chance' to undo that is a dumb sideshow.
Quote from: jsglow on September 26, 2018, 12:35:06 PM
This. Let's just take the Cards for example. Haven't the Crew and Cubs demonstrated their superiority over 162? The fact that they get a 'chance' to undo that is a dumb sideshow.
It's called the playoffs. Other sports have them too.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 26, 2018, 12:38:02 PM
It's called the playoffs. Other sports have them too.
Agreed. Ideally in my mind it would be a best of 3, but it was meant to keep more teams in the race longer. MLB has the smallest playoff field. It's a bummer if the WC1 team loses, but as a fan of a team that rarely makes the playoffs, i appreciate bumping the odds of getting in up a bit.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 26, 2018, 12:51:00 PM
Agreed. Ideally in my mind it would be a best of 3, but it was meant to keep more teams in the race longer. MLB has the smallest playoff field. It's a bummer if the WC1 team loses, but as a fan of a team that rarely makes the playoffs, i appreciate bumping the odds of getting in up a bit.
That would be fine by me. Look, we all discussed this a few pages back. No need to rehash.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 26, 2018, 12:51:00 PM
Agreed. Ideally in my mind it would be a best of 3, but it was meant to keep more teams in the race longer. MLB has the smallest playoff field. It's a bummer if the WC1 team loses, but as a fan of a team that rarely makes the playoffs, i appreciate bumping the odds of getting in up a bit.
Best of 3 would be eminently more reasonable. Of the three major sports (sorry, hockey), baseball by far has the most randomness in a single game. To play a redicuously long season and then have one game out of 163 potentially knock out the team with the 2nd best record in the league is a crappy idea.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 26, 2018, 12:31:19 PM
The "case" for Yelich as MVP should be closed. He's really the only option. If he doesn't get it he got completely jobbed.
As a Cubs fan and unabashed Baez fanboy, I totally agree with you. He's been unreal. In the last 2 weeks, he's raised his average by 8pts (no easy feat when you have 500+ ABs and are already hitting .313), has more HRs than SOs (5 to 4), and is averaged 1.5 RBIs a game. Thats not even getting into advanced statistics. Just the eye test is a no brainer.
And I, and other Cubs fans, have been here. There just isn't much to talk about. 1 run in 2 games at home isn't going to cut it. Need to grab the last 2 here against PIT.
And Maddon was disappointing to say the least. He could have said he didnt read it cause he needs to focus on keeping the clubhouse together and engaged, and I could understand it. No doubt it has been a distraction. But trying to imply it was unproven or whatever, just a BAD look. Theo's comments were much more appropriate and he did a really good job of making sure in no way could he be seen as casting doubt or anything towards Russell's ex wife, while diplomatically realizing he couldn't quite be damning about Russell's future with the Cubs for legal reasons. I think Russell is done as a Cub and the organization has handled it well, until Maddon's comments.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 26, 2018, 12:55:52 PM
As a Cubs fan and unabashed Baez fanboy, I totally agree with you. He's been unreal. In the last 2 weeks, he's raised his average by 8pts (no easy feat when you have 500+ ABs and are already hitting .313), has more HRs than SOs (5 to 4), and is averaged 1.5 RBIs a game. Thats not even getting into advanced statistics. Just the eye test is a no brainer.
And I, and other Cubs fans, have been here. There just isn't much to talk about. 1 run in 2 games at home isn't going to cut it. Need to grab the last 2 here against PIT.
And Maddon was disappointing to say the least. He could have said he didnt read it cause he needs to focus on keeping the clubhouse together and engaged, and I could understand it. No doubt it has been a distraction. But trying to imply it was unproven or whatever, just a BAD look. Theo's comments were much more appropriate and he did a really good job of making sure in no way could he be seen as casting doubt or anything towards Russell's ex wife, while diplomatically realizing he couldn't quite be damning about Russell's future with the Cubs for legal reasons. I think Russell is done as a Cub and the organization has handled it well, until Maddon's comments.
All fair and reasonable points.
Quote from: Benny B on September 26, 2018, 11:26:36 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/qvZtn5jwZ1Y
https://www.youtube.com/v/2FR5c8p1GCI
https://www.youtube.com/v/BsdA1zzR0Ng
https://www.mlb.com/news/craig-counsell-is-d-backs-unlikely-2001-hero/c-295719092
Craig was also on base for Gonzalez' WS-winning hit in 2003. He didn't score the winning because he was the trail runner, but I can't imagine that any other player has been involved in TWO Game 7 walk-offs.
Edit: CC came up with 1 out, tie game, runners on 2nd and 3rd. He SHOULD have been the guy to drive in the winning run, but Rivera plunked him, which brought up Gonzalez. The trivia of "only man to score and drive-in a WS winning walk-off in Game 7" would have been insane. What could have been!
I think I have this right but there have only been five Game 7 walk offs in World Series history. (1912, 1960, 1991, 1997, 2001) Counsell is the only guy to be on the roster on the winning side of two of them.
And the only other guy to have played in two of them was Chuck Knoblach, who was on the winning side with the Twins in 1991 and the losing side with the Yankees in 2001.
If I was redoing baseball playoffs I would shorten the season to 146 games, expand the playoff field to 8 teams in each league....first two rounds are best of 5, LCS and WS are best of 7.
Sacreligous I know, but it brings meaningful baseball to July/August instead of August/September, moves All-Star Break to mid-June, increases the overall value of the content while reducing the impact on players and makes the regular season more meaningful.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 01:29:40 PM
If I was redoing baseball playoffs I would shorten the season to 146 games, expand the playoff field to 8 teams in each league....first two rounds are best of 5, LCS and WS are best of 7.
Sacreligous I know, but it brings meaningful baseball to July/August instead of August/September, moves All-Star Break to mid-June, increases the overall value of the content while reducing the impact on players and makes the regular season more meaningful.
I like it!
Let's work together to convince the owners to take less of a gate, and to convince the players to take significantly less pay. I think the latter would be a more difficult sell, but maybe I'm wrong.
MLB, NBA and NHL seasons are WAAAAY too long. NFL feels about right, but I wouldn't mind 2 fewer games there as was the case in the '60s and '70s.
I would be stunned if any of those leagues shorten their seasons in our lifetimes, though.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 01:29:40 PM
If I was redoing baseball playoffs I would shorten the season to 146 games, expand the playoff field to 8 teams in each league....first two rounds are best of 5, LCS and WS are best of 7.
Sacreligous I know, but it brings meaningful baseball to July/August instead of August/September, moves All-Star Break to mid-June, increases the overall value of the content while reducing the impact on players and makes the regular season more meaningful.
So then teams that are .500 or worse are making the playoffs?
When the Cubs and Yankees both lose in the one game WC this year, you can be sure the MLB will go ahead and make changes to the WC structure.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 03:35:11 PM
So then teams that are .500 or worse are making the playoffs?
Potentially but they do now in NFL and NBA as well
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 01:29:40 PM
If I was redoing baseball playoffs I would shorten the season to 146 games, expand the playoff field to 8 teams in each league....first two rounds are best of 5, LCS and WS are best of 7.
Sacreligous I know, but it brings meaningful baseball to July/August instead of August/September, moves All-Star Break to mid-June, increases the overall value of the content while reducing the impact on players and makes the regular season more meaningful.
Sounds great Eng, and would make for a much better product.
Problem is that if you reduce the schedule by 10%, then salaries would be reduced by 10%. I don't see any world where that would be acceptable to players.
Honestly, what's wrong with this? How 'bout we go back to the days of scheduled doubleheaders? If each team had 4 in a year we could easily schedule a 3 game WC series.
Quote from: Jockey on September 26, 2018, 04:13:26 PM
Sounds great Eng, and would make for a much better product.
Problem is that if you reduce the schedule by 10%, then salaries would be reduced by 10%. I don't see any world where that would be acceptable to players.
A) it's hypothetical
B) I'm not convinced it's a linear reduction. The playoff revenue(requires more revenue sharing) jumps significantly which would compensate for some of the loss from the gate. I'd guess a 10% regular season reduction results in a 5% revenue reduction at worst. Plus the increased scarcity of regular season tickets may drive more attendance.
C) It's hypothetical :)
Quote from: jsglow on September 26, 2018, 04:29:43 PM
Honestly, what's wrong with this? How 'bout we go back to the days of scheduled doubleheaders? If each team had 4 in a year we could easily schedule a 3 game WC series.
Because baseball doesn't want scheduled doubleheaders, and most certainly DOES want the single game wildcard.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 26, 2018, 04:32:13 PM
Because baseball doesn't want scheduled doubleheaders, and most certainly DOES want the single game wildcard.
Thanks for stating the obvious Sultan. We're simply discussing alternatives.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 26, 2018, 03:35:11 PM
So then teams that are .500 or worse are making the playoffs?
If we had 8 team playoffs this year there would be one team who would go at under 500. I'm also sure that team wouldn't be 500 if they had a possibility at playoffs
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 26, 2018, 04:53:13 PM
If we had 8 team playoffs this year there would be one team who would go at under 500. I'm also sure that team wouldn't be 500 if they had a possibility at playoffs
I decided to go back and look at this since the wild card game was added:
2018 (as of this moment): 1, Angels (77-81)
2017: 4, Angels/Rays/Royals (80-82), Marlins (77-85)
2016: 2, Marlins (79-82), Pirates (78-83)
2015: 1, D-Backs (79-83)
2014: 2, Braves/Mets (79-83)
2013: 1, Padres or Giants (76-86)
2012: 0
I also agree that if the playoffs expanded, there would be more teams as buyers and there would be more parity. 2017 was a weird year but other than that I would be fine with 1 or 2 sub .500 teams being served up to the 1 seeds.
Personally, I think a 16 playoff teams is too many for a 30 team league. I don't like more than half of the teams making it. But if the MLB does add two expansion teams, I really hope they expand the playoffs to 8 from each league.
Quote from: mu03eng on September 26, 2018, 04:31:13 PM
A) it's hypothetical
B) I'm not convinced it's a linear reduction. The playoff revenue(requires more revenue sharing) jumps significantly which would compensate for some of the loss from the gate. I'd guess a 10% regular season reduction results in a 5% revenue reduction at worst. Plus the increased scarcity of regular season tickets may drive more attendance.
C) It's hypothetical :)
Excellent answer.
Quote from: jsglow on September 26, 2018, 04:44:24 PM
Thanks for stating the obvious Sultan. We're simply discussing alternatives.
You asked a question and I answered it.
Dancing on the Cardinal's pitching mound
Helluva team victory tonight. And a huge stumble on the game tying play. :o
Go Birds. Kick some Cubs tail this weekend.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 26, 2018, 09:33:45 PM
Dancing on the Cardinal's pitching mound
Well... that's clearly a baseball standards violation. So that leaves St. Louis with no choice but to hit a few Cubs batters this weekend, I suppose.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 26, 2018, 09:33:45 PM
Dancing on the Cardinal's pitching mound
Were dey singin' "Country Roads'" hey?
Quote from: jsglow on September 26, 2018, 09:47:30 PM
Helluva team victory tonight. And a huge stumble on the game tying play. :o
Go Birds. Kick some Cubs tail this weekend.
Harvey Kuehn tripped him up with his peg leg ;D
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/42631825_2140859079322348_6443637634873950208_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=493036c951c99b0cba7827b39f9b6876&oe=5C24DEFA)
Playoffs clinched, now get that division
Did Rizzo just get Bartman'd?
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on September 26, 2018, 10:29:48 PM
Did Rizzo just get Bartman'd?
Yes. Hopefully they do not force this guy into hiding
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on September 26, 2018, 10:29:48 PM
Did Rizzo just get Bartman'd?
(nb)
(http://www.dailyherald.com/storyimage/DA/20110405/sports/704059878/EP/1/5/EP-704059878.jpg&updated=201104051740&MaxW=800&maxH=800&noborder)
W
Can already call this season a success but I'm hungry for more. Pirates almost did us another solid but fell just short. I think the Crew sweeps the Tigers. Can the Cubbies go 3-1 against the Pirates and Redbirds?
Really wish the D-Backs would just call it a season. If we do end up in the wild card game, I'd rather not face Kershaw....Though if the Cubs had to face him....
Plenty more work to do. But the rebuild that started only a couple of years ago if far, far ahead of schedule. Couple that with the players they have under control for an extended period of time and it's realistic to believe the Crew will be contenders for years to come.
Quote from: jsglow on September 27, 2018, 07:02:58 AM
Plenty more work to do. But the rebuild that started only a couple of years ago if far, far ahead of schedule. Couple that with the players they have under control for an extended period of time and it's realistic to believe the Crew will be contenders for years to come.
Especially if Jimmy Nelson comes back looking like last year.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 27, 2018, 07:08:36 AM
Especially if Jimmy Nelson comes back looking like last year.
That's the thing I keep kicking around in my mind. If the Brewers had a healthy Nelson for the pennant chase, I think they win the division. C'est la vie.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 27, 2018, 07:08:36 AM
Especially if Jimmy Nelson comes back looking like last year.
I don't expect that, but Roger Dorn will be a great addition to the starting staff next year. I expect more out of him than Freddy Peralta.
Quote from: Jockey on September 27, 2018, 08:02:35 AM
I don't expect that, but Roger Dorn will be a great addition to the starting staff next year. I expect more out of him than Freddy Peralta.
Isn't that the pretty boy third baseman who cheats on his wife?
Quote from: mu03eng on September 27, 2018, 08:00:05 AM
That's the thing I keep kicking around in my mind. If the Brewers had a healthy Nelson for the pennant chase, I think they win the division. C'est la vie.
In this scenario, do the Cards get their injured players back?
https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-disabled-list-tracker/ (https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-disabled-list-tracker/)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 27, 2018, 09:52:35 AM
In this scenario, do the Cards get their injured players back?
https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-disabled-list-tracker/ (https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-disabled-list-tracker/)
No
Quote from: mu03eng on September 27, 2018, 08:15:23 AM
Isn't that the pretty boy third baseman who cheats on his wife?
8-)
Counsel has used him in a lot of high leverage situations this year and has already said he will go back to a starter's role next year.
Depending on how it shakes out, the team in the NL I'd want nothing to do with right now, especially if you have to go to them, is Colorado.
Quote from: MUDish on September 27, 2018, 02:50:25 PM
Depending on how it shakes out, the team in the NL I'd want nothing to do with right now, especially if you have to go to them, is Colorado.
They've won a lot in a row but I would still rather face them then the Dodgers, especially in a 1 game playoff.
I would want nothing to do with the Brewers after the 1 game WC if I were any other team. Stacked with veteran hitters and the best bullpen in baseball.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 27, 2018, 06:08:26 PM
I would want nothing to do with the Brewers after the 1 game WC if I were any other team. Stacked with veteran hitters and the best bullpen in baseball.
I'd want the unproven zero experience brewers over the cubs, cards, dodgers or rockies honestly.
(https://media.nbcchicago.com/images/652*367/GettyImages-620679236.jpg)
Lester MVP!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 27, 2018, 03:24:35 PM
They've won a lot in a row but I would still rather face them then the Dodgers, especially in a 1 game playoff.
Kershaw pitches Saturday, Buehler Sunday. Neither will pitch Monday ('cept maybe Kershaw in a save situation).
Dodgers don't scare me. Brewers will have to play them either Monday or Tuesday. Honestly, I'd rather take my chances against Maeda or Stripling in one game than have to face Ryu, Kershaw (even on 3 days rest) and Buehler four times in the NLDS.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 27, 2018, 03:24:35 PM
They've won a lot in a row but I would still rather face them then the Dodgers, especially in a 1 game playoff.
I think Marquez has like 5 or 6 straight 10k (at least) starts, and an ERA of 2 over the last 6 weeks. And he probably isn't even their best pitcher.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 27, 2018, 09:28:36 PM
I'd want the unproven zero experience brewers over the cubs, cards, dodgers or rockies honestly.
Hmmm. That seems well, who knows. But I think facing that bullpen in a 1 game situation would be tough.
Also I'd be pretty shocked in the Tigers won a game this weekend. And similarly shocked if the Cardinals didn't.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 27, 2018, 09:28:36 PM
I'd want the unproven zero experience brewers over the cubs, cards, dodgers or rockies honestly.
That "unproven zero experience" Brewers team (Cain, Granderson, Gio, Mouse say hello) have won 10 of their last 11 series to close their division deficit to a game.
But I'm glad a few Cubs fans have come back after 2 big wins in a row. It was awful quiet around here for a while.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 27, 2018, 10:34:16 PM
But I'm glad a few Cubs fans have come back after 2 big wins in a row. It was awful quiet around here for a while.
Sorry mate, I had a surgery the other day and haven't been able to watch baseball very much I'm so sorry I didn't prioritize this thread more. But way to regulate who posts what when in this thread
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 28, 2018, 05:36:41 AM
Sorry mate, I had a surgery the other day and haven't been able to watch baseball very much I'm so sorry I didn't prioritize this thread more. But way to regulate who posts what when in this thread
Hope you recover quickly! Baseball is going to baseball for the next 3 days. Hope everyone enjoys it.
Cubs winning and Braves losing last night, clinched home field advantage through the NLCS for the central division winner.
Here's something we can all agree on, as it applies equally to the Brewers and Cubs (regardless of who advances or how far)
MLB POST-SEASON SCHEDULE
DIVISION SERIES
(Home Team if: Wild Card Winner – Division Winner)
Thu., Oct. 4: NLDS A, Game 1 (FS1 or MLBN)
Fri., Oct. 5: NLDS A, Game 2 (FS1 or MLBN)
Sun., Oct. 7: NLDS A, Game 3 (FS1 or MLBN)
Mon., Oct. 8: NLDS A, Game 4* (FS1)
Wed., Oct. 10: NLDS A, Game 5* (FS1)
LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES
(Home Team if: Wild Card Winner – Division Winner)
Fri., Oct. 12: NLCS Game 1 (FOX or FS1)
Sat., Oct. 13: NLCS Game 2 (FOX or FS1)
Mon., Oct. 15: NLCS Game 3 (FOX or FS1)
Tue., Oct. 16: NLCS Game 4 (FOX or FS1)
Wed., Oct. 17: NLCS Game 5* (FOX or FS1)
Fri., Oct. 19: NLCS Game 6* (FOX or FS1)
Sat., Oct. 20: NLCS Game 7* (FOX or FS1)
114th WORLD SERIES
(Home Team if: vs. Cleveland – vs. anyone else)
Tue., Oct. 23: Game 1 (FOX)
Wed., Oct. 24: Game 2 (FOX)
Thu., Oct. 25: TRAVEL DAY
Fri., Oct. 26: Game 3 (FOX)
Sat., Oct. 27: Game 4 (FOX)
Sun., Oct. 28: Game 5* (FOX)
Mon., Oct. 29: TRAVEL DAY
Tue., Oct. 30: Game 6* (FOX)
Wed., Oct. 31: Game 7* (FOX)
* If necessary
** Presumes Brewers win at least one game (or Cleveland loses at least one game) this weekend.
Quote from: Benny B on September 27, 2018, 10:17:29 PM
Dodgers don't scare me. Brewers will have to play them either Monday or Tuesday.
?
If Milwaukee is playing on Monday, it's the tiebreaker in Chicago for the division. If the Dodgers are playing Monday, it's either against Colorado for the division or St. Louis for WC2.
In a perfect world, Brewers win 1 or 0, Rockies get swept, Dodgers take 1, and St. Louis takes 2. That gives the Cubs the Central and sets up Rockies/Dodgers for the West on Monday with the loser playing St. Louis Tuesday for the right to play Milwaukee in a delayed Wild Card game. When it's not my team, I'll take high-stakes single games all week please.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.mlb.com/296364480-christian-yelichs-brother-fulfills-usmc-duty.amp.html
Quote from: drewm88 on September 28, 2018, 11:48:30 AM
?
If Milwaukee is playing on Monday, it's the tiebreaker in Chicago for the division. If the Dodgers are playing Monday, it's either against Colorado for the division or St. Louis for WC2.
In a perfect world, Brewers win 1 or 0, Rockies get swept, Dodgers take 1, and St. Louis takes 2. That gives the Cubs the Central and sets up Rockies/Dodgers for the West on Monday with the loser playing St. Louis Tuesday for the right to play Milwaukee in a delayed Wild Card game. When it's not my team, I'll take high-stakes single games all week please.
Sorry... Tuesday or Thursday. Assumes Dodgers do not win the West, in which case the Brewers will play them as the other wild card (Thursday) or as the Division Winner with the best record who plays the WC winner (Thursday).
Quote from: drewm88 on September 28, 2018, 11:48:30 AM
?
If Milwaukee is playing on Monday, it's the tiebreaker in Chicago for the division. If the Dodgers are playing Monday, it's either against Colorado for the division or St. Louis for WC2.
In a perfect world, Brewers win 1 or 0, Rockies get swept, Dodgers take 1, and St. Louis takes 2. That gives the Cubs the Central and sets up Rockies/Dodgers for the West on Monday with the loser playing St. Louis Tuesday for the right to play Milwaukee in a delayed Wild Card game. When it's not my team, I'll take high-stakes single games all week please.
That scenario is wild.
Also, seven years ago to the day was the best regular season finish in all of professional sports.
https://youtu.be/Em_3wxe-i0g
Quote from: drewm88 on September 28, 2018, 11:48:30 AM
?
If Milwaukee is playing on Monday, it's the tiebreaker in Chicago for the division. If the Dodgers are playing Monday, it's either against Colorado for the division or St. Louis for WC2.
In a perfect world, Brewers win 1 or 0, Rockies get swept, Dodgers take 1, and St. Louis takes 2. That gives the Cubs the Central and sets up Rockies/Dodgers for the West on Monday with the loser playing St. Louis Tuesday for the right to play Milwaukee in a delayed Wild Card game. When it's not my team, I'll take high-stakes single games all week please.
Tigers are 3-7 in their last 10 and they are starting 2 guys with ERAs over 5 in the series. They are basically trying to move into the 3rd spot in the draft. That would be a completely shocking outcome.
I think the perfect scenario would be the Brewers and Cubs tying for the NL Central, the Dodgers and Rockies tying for the NL West, and both of those teams tied with the Cards. Doesn't seem plausible at all, but heck, the craziness would be fun.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 28, 2018, 03:04:41 PM
Tigers are 3-7 in their last 10 and they are starting 2 guys with ERAs over 5 in the series. They are basically trying to move into the 3rd spot in the draft. That would be a completely shocking outcome.
I think the perfect scenario would be the Brewers and Cubs tying for the NL Central, the Dodgers and Rockies tying for the NL West, and both of those teams tied with the Cards. Doesn't seem plausible at all, but heck, the craziness would be fun.
While drew's is fun, I make the odds at a Crew/Cubs grudge match on Monday at 50/50. STL pulls out all the stops and wins 2 while the Crew sweeps a team that is essentially tanking.
Quote from: jsglow on September 28, 2018, 03:22:19 PM
While drew's is fun, I make the odds at a Crew/Cubs grudge match on Monday at 50/50. STL pulls out all the stops and wins 2 while the Crew sweeps a team that is essentially tanking.
That would give the Brewers the Division.
Don't get me wrong. I want the Cubs to lose. But it does give me a wee bit of joy to see the Cardinals imploding at the end of the year.
For those of us on the opposite end of the spectrum, that was a clutch Sox loss. They own the tiebreaker with Miami for the third pick and now can pick no lower than 6.
Well, 1 down, 2 to go. The only possible way I see the Tigers winning one is a gem from Zimmerman tonight. He's not a stud, but he used to be a great pitcher and he's from Wisconsin, so maybe that is something.
Good response by the Cubs today. Feel good about Hamels at home tomorrow given how good he has been at Wrigley. Montgomery vs Flaherty on Sunday is the worry. 2 wins in 9 starts, and those were the only two games he made it out of the 6th, yeesh.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 28, 2018, 03:44:47 PM
That would give the Brewers the Division.
I think that's Glow's point. I think he thinks the most likely outcome is the Crew wins outright, followed by a playoff, followed by the Cubs winning outright.
Unless their bullpen explodes in the final frame the Cubs are going to get a big W today. I am pretty confident the Crew will sweep. It all comes down these final 2 against the Cards. I think we're heading for a tie.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Published-Images/Published-Photos/i-MQJ4zX4/0/b0b30f08/S/Ryan%20Theriot-S.jpg)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 28, 2018, 04:43:55 PM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Published-Images/Published-Photos/i-MQJ4zX4/0/b0b30f08/S/Ryan%20Theriot-S.jpg)
W
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on September 28, 2018, 04:43:55 PM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Published-Images/Published-Photos/i-MQJ4zX4/0/b0b30f08/S/Ryan%20Theriot-S.jpg)
The Riot
Quote from: HansMoleman on September 28, 2018, 06:45:52 PM
The Riot
God I forgot he existed. Didn't he win two rings post Cubs?
Looks like the tigers have come to play. No rolling over.
The Tigers are basically a AAA team. They have terrible hitting. Gardenhire will not let them quit.
Zimmerman however is throwing BP.
He does that a lot.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 28, 2018, 07:28:59 PM
Looks like the tigers have come to play. No rolling over.
Yeli and Braunie took care of that pretty quickly.
I know you Cubs fans hate Ryan but he's getting really hot at a critical time. If only he could stay healthy at this stage of his career.
Braun with his 20th!
ballsy changeup
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 28, 2018, 10:10:12 PM
21st*
Oh yeah, not sure I've ever seen a home run roll over the fence before.
Absolute masterclass in a crappy team choking. Every bit of momentum they got, the Tigers puked it away. HR to tie and a base runner, then chase Hader...do nothing. Alcantara had been fantastic in Sept, 3 hits no runs and then...Castellano thinks he's on Bradford Beach setting up for the outside hitter to spike.
Kudos to the Brewers for timely hitting. That should be the jolt they need. Won't be caught napping again. As for the Cubs, just win baby. No scoreboard watching
I know all games matter equally, but with the division on the line here is how Yelich has performed in the last 6 games:
.388 AVG, 8 R, 3 HR, 13 RBI, 10 BB, 2 SO, 2 2B, 1 3B, 1 SB, .607 OBP
With the division on the line here is how Baez has performed in the last 6 games:
.240 AVG, 1 R, 0 HR, 1 RBI, 1 BB, 12 SO, 2 2B, 0 3B, 0 SB, .269 OBP
Personally, I think Yelich had the edge already 6 games ago. I think the end of the regular season might just seal it for him.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 28, 2018, 10:41:20 PM
I know all games matter equally, but with the division on the line here is how Yelich has performed in the last 6 games:
.388 AVG, 8 R, 3 HR, 13 RBI, 10 BB, 2 SO, 2 2B, 1 3B, 1 SB, .607 OBP
With the division on the line here is how Baez has performed in the last 6 games:
.240 AVG, 1 R, 0 HR, 1 RBI, 1 BB, 12 SO, 2 2B, 0 3B, 0 SB, .269 OBP
Personally, I think Yelich had the edge already 6 games ago. I think the end of the regular season might just seal it for him.
You might be right, and this unbiased observer would have absolutely no problem with Yelich as MVP. He's had a heck of a finish to a heck of a season.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 28, 2018, 10:41:20 PM
I know all games matter equally, but with the division on the line here is how Yelich has performed in the last 6 games:
.388 AVG, 8 R, 3 HR, 13 RBI, 10 BB, 2 SO, 2 2B, 1 3B, 1 SB, .607 OBP
With the division on the line here is how Baez has performed in the last 6 games:
.240 AVG, 1 R, 0 HR, 1 RBI, 1 BB, 12 SO, 2 2B, 0 3B, 0 SB, .269 OBP
Personally, I think Yelich had the edge already 6 games ago. I think the end of the regular season might just seal it for him.
The eye test is important too. Baez and Yelich were pretty dang even coming into September. Maybe slight edge to Baez. But as I mentioned before, Yelich went Super Saiyan, and as a result the Brewers caught fire too, which negates the "player on the best/better team" factor. Yelich made a huge leap, is fun to watch, and seems like a good dude/has a great story. I'm fine with him taking the MVP...as long as the Cubs take the division 8-)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 28, 2018, 10:41:20 PM
I know all games matter equally, but with the division on the line here is how Yelich has performed in the last 6 games:
.388 AVG, 8 R, 3 HR, 13 RBI, 10 BB, 2 SO, 2 2B, 1 3B, 1 SB, .607 OBP
With the division on the line here is how Baez has performed in the last 6 games:
.240 AVG, 1 R, 0 HR, 1 RBI, 1 BB, 12 SO, 2 2B, 0 3B, 0 SB, .269 OBP
Personally, I think Yelich had the edge already 6 games ago. I think the end of the regular season might just seal it for him.
Problem is the NL MVP race isn't Yelich vs Baez. It's Yelich vs deGrom.
Historically, Yelich (or any hitter in the NL this season) would be the worst performing (by sabermetrics) OPS+ since Mike Schmidt in 83. Yelich is now tied with Cain for NL positional player WAR at 7.0. Only Lucroy in 2014 (6.6) and Sizemore in 2006 (6.6) led their leagues with a lower WAR (neither won MVP). It's not a knock on Yelich, the NL positional field stinks this year.
Of the 4 pitchers who have won MVP since 1969, deGrom's season is clearly the best. Highest WAR (9.6), lowest ERA (1.70) and he will have thrown roughly 20 more innings than Kershaw's MVP season in 2014.
I think Yelich wins the award, but I mentioned it on here last month too, deGrom is right there.
Quote from: MUDish on September 29, 2018, 12:09:09 AM
Problem is the NL MVP race isn't Yelich vs Baez. It's Yelich vs deGrom.
Historically, Yelich (or any hitter in the NL this season) would be the worst performing (by sabermetrics) OPS+ since Mike Schmidt in 83. Yelich is now tied with Cain for NL positional player WAR at 7.0. Only Lucroy in 2014 (6.6) and Sizemore in 2006 (6.6) led their leagues with a lower WAR (neither won MVP). It's not a knock on Yelich, the NL positional field stinks this year.
Of the 4 pitchers who have won MVP since 1969, deGrom's season is clearly the best. Highest WAR (9.6), lowest ERA (1.70) and he will have thrown roughly 20 more innings than Kershaw's MVP season in 2014.
I think Yelich wins the award, but I mentioned it on here last month too, deGrom is right there.
From a worthiness standpoint, you might be right, but I don't think DeGrom will factor in a ton. It's tough for a pitcher to win MVP period. Tthe fact the Mets haven't been in contention for awhile, makes me think it's difficult for voters to choose DeGrom over Yelich or Baez.
Quote from: cheebs09 on September 29, 2018, 12:26:05 AM
From a worthiness standpoint, you might be right, but I don't think DeGrom will factor in a ton. It's tough for a pitcher to win MVP period. Tthe fact the Mets haven't been in contention for awhile, makes me think it's difficult for voters to choose DeGrom over Yelich or Baez.
The pitcher with the 2nd best ERA in the NL, is whomever starts opposite deGrom. If the Mets were good he'd have a shot maybe even be the favorite, but they're terrible.
I still can't get over these stats below.
If the Mets had at a minimum scored 4 runs in each of deGrom's starts, he'd be 30-0.
If the Mets had scored a minimum of 3 runs in each of deGrom's starts, he'd be 25-1.
If they had scored minimum of 2 runs (!), he'd be 20-6.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DoNzUJJV4AAVKsD?format=jpg&name=small)
An Oct 1st noon game? Little old no working me will be headed to chi town if that happens
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 29, 2018, 09:54:14 AM
An Oct 1st noon game? Little old no working me will be headed to chi town if that happens
Me:
(https://y.yarn.co/124fec29-eeb9-4869-830b-bb5662f87de8_text.gif)
(https://www.apostolic.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2.ministryfeat.jpg)
As of this moment, the Crew controls it's own destiny to the NL Central title. Let that sink in. 8-)
Quote from: MUDish on September 29, 2018, 12:09:09 AM
Problem is the NL MVP race isn't Yelich vs Baez. It's Yelich vs deGrom.
Historically, Yelich (or any hitter in the NL this season) would be the worst performing (by sabermetrics) OPS+ since Mike Schmidt in 83. Yelich is now tied with Cain for NL positional player WAR at 7.0. Only Lucroy in 2014 (6.6) and Sizemore in 2006 (6.6) led their leagues with a lower WAR (neither won MVP). It's not a knock on Yelich, the NL positional field stinks this year.
Of the 4 pitchers who have won MVP since 1969, deGrom's season is clearly the best. Highest WAR (9.6), lowest ERA (1.70) and he will have thrown roughly 20 more innings than Kershaw's MVP season in 2014.
I think Yelich wins the award, but I mentioned it on here last month too, deGrom is right there.
I am a big believer that starting pitchers can and should be considered for the MVP, but I would only consider one if he had a major, major impact on his team being a contender. Verlander was a great choice a few years ago IMHO.
A few everyday ballplayers on horrible teams have won the MVP, but there has never been a starting pitcher on a horrible team to do so, nor should there be in my estimation.
In 1972, the last-place Phillies won 59 games, allowing a division-worst 4.1 runs per game. Steve Carlton went 27-10 with 30 CG, 310 K and a 1.97 ERA. He was the unanimous choice for NL Cy Young (as he should have been) but he finished a distant fifth in the MVP race (as he should have).
I'd be pretty disappointed if a guy who played 32 games for a team that will finish 15 games out and never contended is selected as MVP.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 29, 2018, 02:39:44 PM
(https://www.apostolic.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2.ministryfeat.jpg)
Who's there?
Quote from: MU82 on September 29, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
A few everyday ballplayers on horrible teams have won the MVP, but there has never been a starting pitcher on a horrible team to do so, nor should there be in my estimation.
I'd be pretty disappointed if a guy who played 32 games for a team that will finish 15 games out and never contended is selected as MVP.
If you're willing to consider pitchers for the MVP at all -
knowing that they'll only start every fifth day - why do you give them an
extra demerit if their team's record is bad? That seems really arbitrary to me.
Yelich unreal
Yesterday and today have been entirely too close for my liking.
AAA talent. One hitter who has played all season with an average above .250. But the Tigers play hard every game.
Quote from: tower912 on September 29, 2018, 08:18:00 PM
AAA talent. One hitter who has played all season with an average above .250. But the Tigers play hard every game.
Norris looked good, seemed like his mechanics weren't consistent however.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 29, 2018, 08:26:03 PM
Norris looked good, seemed like his mechanics weren't consistent however.
They aren't. Injured all year. We will see if he can regain consistency over the winter.
Is Yelich juicing? (Ducks, runs away giggling)
Still gotta hit da round ball wit da round bat, aina?
Quote from: tower912 on September 29, 2018, 09:00:47 PM
Is Yelich juicing? (Ducks, runs away giggling)
Hopefully. And if not hopefully he starts to.
I think I've officially never seen a September run like Yelich is having...unreal.
Tomorrow is going to be a hell of a sports day, I'm gonna wake up at 5am and have the Ryder Cup as an appetizer and then I'm gonna need 6 TVs from Noon on.
Christian Yelich. Just wow.
Been waiting a while to do this
(http://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/1P4mMxZXfgrI8NKAph0bC5jxDGE=/0x0:3000x2053/1200x800/filters:focal(1348x502:1828x982)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/58188509/86090596.jpg.0.jpg)
Quote from: MUDish on September 29, 2018, 09:38:44 PM
Tomorrow is going to be a hell of a sports day, I'm gonna wake up at 5am and have the Ryder Cup as an appetizer and then I'm gonna need 6 TVs from Noon on.
NL west is tied too. Could have two 1 game playoffs on Monday.
If the Cubs and Brewers played the whole season at the same WL pace as the last two weeks, the cubs would have 95 wins and be 40 games behind the brewers. Great finish for Milwaukee.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 29, 2018, 09:51:08 PM
Been waiting a while to do this
(http://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/1P4mMxZXfgrI8NKAph0bC5jxDGE=/0x0:3000x2053/1200x800/filters:focal(1348x502:1828x982)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/58188509/86090596.jpg.0.jpg)
Why no T-Plush?
I wonder where that guy is now? Probably playing semi-pro hockey in Finland...
McCalvy tweeted Yelich's last 14 PAs: 4 HR, 8 Walks, 2 SO.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 30, 2018, 06:13:19 AM
McCalvy tweeted Yelich's last 14 PAs: 4 HR, 8 Walks, 2 SO.
He has an outside chance to win the Triple Crown. Leads in BA, tied in HR and 2 RBI behind Baez.
Very impressive finish by the Brewers. A Cubs - Brewers series would be a gas. I'm rooting for both.
Bummed that today's game are only broadcast if you have the baseball package.
Does anyone know if you can get the Cubs or Brewers streaming?
Quote from: real chili 83 on September 30, 2018, 07:45:34 AM
Bummed that today's game are only broadcast if you have the baseball package.
Does anyone know if you can get the Cubs or Brewers streaming?
I'm pretty sure that MLB.tv is free all weekend for all games.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 30, 2018, 07:24:49 AM
He has an outside chance to win the Triple Crown. Leads in BA, tied in HR and 2 RBI behind Baez.
If they play a tie breaker for the division that counts in the regular season stats. So if Brewers win today I think Yelich has a good chance to win the Triple Crown in the NL since the first time since 1937
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 30, 2018, 05:57:07 AM
Why no T-Plush?
I wonder where that guy is now? Probably playing semi-pro hockey in Finland...
Selling 10 karat gold necklaces somewhere in the nether regions of the internet?
Quote from: #bansultan on September 30, 2018, 07:24:49 AM
He has an outside chance to win the Triple Crown. Leads in BA, tied in HR and 2 RBI behind Baez.
Eng just beat me to it. I think Yeli has a real chance. I say he caps it off Monday with a 2 run shot in the 8th to win it. A fitting way in an iconic venue.
However this all ends up, it's made me care more about baseball this past month than the Packers. That's no small feat.
#Crew
Quote from: jsglow on September 30, 2018, 08:13:59 AM
Eng just beat me to it. I think Yeli has a real chance. I say he caps it off Monday with a 2 run shot in the 8th to win it. A fitting way in an iconic venue.
However this all ends up, it's made me care more about baseball this past month than the Packers. That's no small feat.
#Crew
Oh I'll still have the Packer game on primarily today. Switching to baseball during the commercials or if it gets out of hand.
So why should a single game tiebreaker be used to decide the division instead of the 19 games that were already played? Logically, it makes no sense.
I'd say the same thing if the Brewers held the edge in the season series.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 30, 2018, 08:48:36 AM
So why should a single game tiebreaker be used to decide the division instead of the 19 games that were already played? Logically, it makes no sense.
I'd say the same thing if the Brewers held the edge in the season series.
Cause #tradition and #thatshowmygrandpappydidit
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 30, 2018, 08:48:36 AM
So why should a single game tiebreaker be used to decide the division instead of the 19 games that were already played? Logically, it makes no sense.
I'd say the same thing if the Brewers held the edge in the season series.
Eh, I'll find it exciting. The brewers have struggled mightly against the Tigers and the Cubs bats are cold as snow.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 30, 2018, 09:00:32 AM
Eh, I'll find it exciting. The brewers have struggled mightly against the Tigers and the Cubs bats are cold as snow.
Exciting, absolutely. Logical? Nope.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 30, 2018, 09:01:28 AM
Exciting, absolutely. Logical? Nope.
nothing about the mlb playoff system is logical anymore. Two best teams play a one game playoff to determine who plays a one game playoff that determines who plays the best team. It's all very dumb.
As for today should be interesting. Tigers have proven they are going out fighting. It's time to see if the Cards will roll over, or try to stick it to the Cubs.
Quote from: jsglow on September 30, 2018, 08:13:59 AM
Eng just beat me to it. I think Yeli has a real chance. I say he caps it off Monday with a 2 run shot in the 8th to win it. A fitting way in an iconic venue.
However this all ends up, it's made me care more about baseball this past month than the Packers. That's no small feat.
#Crew
3 run blast today after the Cards blank the Cubs should do the trick.
Playoffs all include a degree of lack of logic. Don't worry too much about it.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 30, 2018, 09:04:11 AMnothing about the mlb playoff system is logical anymore. Two best teams play a one game playoff to determine who plays a one game playoff that determines who plays the best team. It's all very dumb.
In this case, the two best teams play a one-game playoff so the loser can play a one-game playoff to play five more games against the team they just played in a one-game playoff.
Quote from: MUDish on September 29, 2018, 08:50:04 AM
I still can't get over these stats below.
If the Mets had at a minimum scored 4 runs in each of deGrom's starts, he'd be 30-0.
If the Mets had scored a minimum of 3 runs in each of deGrom's starts, he'd be 25-1.
If they had scored minimum of 2 runs (!), he'd be 20-6.
Not sure how anybody figures that. Opponents have scored 5 or more runs in 8 of DeGrom's starts. Unless you also need the bullpen to never give up any runs.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on September 30, 2018, 08:48:36 AM
So why should a single game tiebreaker be used to decide the division instead of the 19 games that were already played? Logically, it makes no sense.
I'd say the same thing if the Brewers held the edge in the season series.
A bigger question is why the schedule at the end of the season slips in AL Central floppers? Cubs playing the White Sox and the Brewers playing the Tigers, for example, instead of their division rivals. They just popped up oddly.
Who wouldn't want a Cubs-Brewers game on the final weekend? Oh, I know, the Brewers who complained about all the Cubs' fans taking up the seats for Fan Appreciation weekend in the past (true). The Red Sox are playing the Yankees, yet here we are.
Quote from: #bansultan on September 30, 2018, 07:24:49 AM
He has an outside chance to win the Triple Crown. Leads in BA, tied in HR and 2 RBI behind Baez.
Except, the Tigers would be foolish to actually pitch to him, though that didn't stop them the last two nights.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 30, 2018, 08:07:42 AM
I'm pretty sure that MLB.tv is free all weekend for all games.
This is true.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 30, 2018, 10:26:32 AM
Except, the Tigers would be foolish to actually pitch to him, though that didn't stop them the last two nights.
The Tigers are playing for draft position.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 30, 2018, 10:38:40 AM
The Tigers are playing for draft position.
Just checked the reverse standings. The Tigers are a half game "behind" Miami for the fourth pick, and a game "ahead" of San Diego for the fifth. There is potentially a two spot difference in their draft position.
While execs are thinking about that, I have no doubt that the players will be playing for real. The only thing they have to play for is to knock us out, which they would be glad to do.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 30, 2018, 10:38:40 AM
The Tigers are playing for draft position.
Never understood that in baseball. You get the occasional Harper or Correa at #1, but more often you get Appel,Swanson, Aiken, Beckham, Hochevar, etc.
Quote from: Jockey on September 30, 2018, 11:04:07 AM
Never understood that in baseball. You get the occasional Harper or Correa at #1, but more often you get Appel,Swanson, Aiken, Beckham, Hochevar, etc.
Yeah, huge crapshoot. Most of all the drafts, but still better to draft higher.
Quote from: Jockey on September 30, 2018, 11:04:07 AM
Never understood that in baseball. You get the occasional Harper or Correa at #1, but more often you get Appel,Swanson, Aiken, Beckham, Hochevar, etc.
Especially since there are 8-10 teams tanking or in the process of tanking today versus 1-2 when the Astros or Cubs were in the process.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 30, 2018, 09:34:27 AM
In this case, the two best teams play a one-game playoff so the loser can play a one-game playoff to play five more games against the team they just played in a one-game playoff.
Sounds like baseketball playoffs
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 30, 2018, 10:38:40 AM
The Tigers are playing for draft position.
The last two games were decided by 1 run that was off a homerun in the last couple innings. The Tigers are there to play.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on September 30, 2018, 10:53:28 AM
While execs are thinking about that, I have no doubt that the players will be playing for real. The only thing they have to play for is to knock us out, which they would be glad to do.
Yup - there's a lot of pride at play in knowing there's a lot of eyes on you, and they'll all be anxious to claim you rolled over. I think a team is Det's position is more likely to "come at you" - they aren't going to walk Yelich, whereas if they were one game up in the AL Central, they probably would - but they aren't just going to throw in the towel, either.
Quote from: Jockey on September 30, 2018, 11:04:07 AM
Never understood that in baseball. You get the occasional Harper or Correa at #1, but more often you get Appel,Swanson, Aiken, Beckham, Hochevar, etc.
You're missing the access to the bigger signing pool allocation, which is just as valuable as the actual top few picks.
Quote from: CTWarrior on September 30, 2018, 09:52:50 AM
Not sure how anybody figures that. Opponents have scored 5 or more runs in 8 of DeGrom's starts. Unless you also need the bullpen to never give up any runs.
I think it's looking at his earned runs. He had one appearance where he only pitched 1 inning and another where he allowed 4 runs. In every other start, DeGrom himself allowed 3 or fewer runs, so it follows that they are looking strictly at him and not the rest of the team.
Quote from: MUDish on September 30, 2018, 12:22:39 PM
You're missing the access to the bigger signing pool allocation, which is just as valuable as the actual top few picks.
Came here to say this.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 30, 2018, 10:04:50 AM
A bigger question is why the schedule at the end of the season slips in AL Central floppers? Cubs playing the White Sox and the Brewers playing the Tigers, for example, instead of their division rivals. They just popped up oddly.
Who wouldn't want a Cubs-Brewers game on the final weekend? Oh, I know, the Brewers who complained about all the Cubs' fans taking up the seats for Fan Appreciation weekend in the past (true). The Red Sox are playing the Yankees, yet here we are.
Because of inter league play. Everyone has rivals, it is impossible with inter league play for all of them to finish playing each other as at least a couple of teams have to finish with that cross league matchup. The only way it could be interesting is if you forced the last weekend to have an inter league rivalry game, like the Mets and Yankees, Giants and Oakland, Cubs and ChiSox, Angels and Dodgers, which are all rivalries in their own way. But currently the math cannot allow for it, someone has to play the other league even in the last series of the year.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 30, 2018, 10:04:50 AM
A bigger question is why the schedule at the end of the season slips in AL Central floppers? Cubs playing the White Sox and the Brewers playing the Tigers, for example, instead of their division rivals. They just popped up oddly.
Who wouldn't want a Cubs-Brewers game on the final weekend? Oh, I know, the Brewers who complained about all the Cubs' fans taking up the seats for Fan Appreciation weekend in the past (true). The Red Sox are playing the Yankees, yet here we are.
Well there's an odd number of teams in league and division. But yeah...it's because the Brewers whine.
The Tigers have not been playing for draft position at any point this year. They aren't good, but they haven't tanked.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 30, 2018, 11:18:36 AM
The last two games were decided by 1 run that was off a homerun in the last couple innings. The Tigers are there to play.
Not that they roll over, but you manage a game differently if it is a must win vs a who cares.
Of all the times the Tigers should've intentionally walked Yelich they do it down 4 with 0 outs in the 7th to load the bases and a chance at a triple crown.
Lame.
Well, four laughers. All the teams came through.
(Of course, I'm hoping this jinxes the baby bears)
Quote from: #bansultan on September 30, 2018, 01:59:17 PM
Well there's an odd number of teams in league and division. But yeah...it's because the Brewers whine.
Where did you get that from? I specifically mentioned White Sox and Tigers. Both laid down like two bit hookers. As a fan, it would be great to see your division rivals to end the season versus two teams who folded six months ago.
Now we see why the Cubs couldn't play Washington on Oct. 1.
On to Miller Park South for the division championship.
Nothing like two day games on Monday. Thanks, MLB.
Brewers, Cubs, Dodgers, and Rockies to have pseudo double elimination tournament.
Quote from: tower912 on September 30, 2018, 02:29:43 PM
The Tigers have not been playing for draft position at any point this year. They aren't good, but they haven't tanked.
I don't think players hardly ever tank - it's not in their DNA. Front offices do, though. Detroit was part of that group.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 30, 2018, 04:27:53 PM
Not that they roll over, but you manage a game differently if it is a must win vs a who cares.
As evidenced by repeatedly pitching right at Yelich. Tigers had a couple of good, timely hits on Fri/Sat but there was nothing strategic done to get a W
(http://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/AfUkBanEeZHFqNiwmttXF02FAHg=/0x0:3000x2255/1200x800/filters:focal(1045x55:1525x535)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/53467901/151289204.0.jpg)
Quintana going for the Cubs tomorrow.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 30, 2018, 05:06:47 PM
Where did you get that from? I specifically mentioned White Sox and Tigers. Both laid down like two bit hookers. As a fan, it would be great to see your division rivals to end the season versus two teams who folded six months ago.
I think the point was that it's impossible for division rivals to match up on the last weekend of the regular season... not only are there 15 in each league, only 5 in the division. Someone gets left out. Someone has to play AL.
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on September 30, 2018, 05:37:53 PM
Nothing like two day games on Monday. Thanks, MLB.
You can't really have a night game in this situation. The loser of the game in LA has to fly, today, to either Chicago or Milwaukee for a game tomorrow. Even if you start the game in LA at 5pm local time, it doesn't finish until (probably) 10:30pm central time, then the losing team has to get to the airport, fly, bus to hotel, etc. That puts them at their final destination in the wee hours of the morning. If you play the game in Chicago at night, then the west coast team has the same problem, waiting to see where to fly. Maybe not ideal situation for fans who have to work, but it's the only way it can be done.
Quote from: ChuckyChip on October 01, 2018, 03:50:17 AM
You can't really have a night game in this situation. The loser of the game in LA has to fly, today, to either Chicago or Milwaukee for a game tomorrow. Even if you start the game in LA at 5pm local time, it doesn't finish until (probably) 10:30pm central time, then the losing team has to get to the airport, fly, bus to hotel, etc. That puts them at their final destination in the wee hours of the morning. If you play the game in Chicago at night, then the west coast team has the same problem, waiting to see where to fly. Maybe not ideal situation for fans who have to work, but it's the only way it can be done.
Also ESPN doesn't want it running in MNF. MLB could do some good by flipping the NL/AL wild card and playoff series starts, but TV contracts...
Quote from: ChuckyChip on October 01, 2018, 03:50:17 AM
You can't really have a night game in this situation. The loser of the game in LA has to fly, today, to either Chicago or Milwaukee for a game tomorrow. Even if you start the game in LA at 5pm local time, it doesn't finish until (probably) 10:30pm central time, then the losing team has to get to the airport, fly, bus to hotel, etc. That puts them at their final destination in the wee hours of the morning. If you play the game in Chicago at night, then the west coast team has the same problem, waiting to see where to fly. Maybe not ideal situation for fans who have to work, but it's the only way it can be done.
This. The Cubs/Crew already have a distinct advantage over the losing west coast team because of the lack of any real travel.
I'm hoping Anderson is the starter and Chacin starts the next game. I don't want to go with a bullpen game in the event we need to play tomorrow.
Quote from: Benny B on September 30, 2018, 09:52:51 PM
I think the point was that it's impossible for division rivals to match up on the last weekend of the regular season... not only are there 15 in each league, only 5 in the division. Someone gets left out. Someone has to play AL.
Again, we all get the point why. The discussion was how come the fan, who has invested themselves in 162+ games, gets a "Wisconsin Handshake" at the end of the year, playing teams who gave up months ago, with a craptacular playoff system, and the ridicululous jammed in travel for these short series to only accommodate TV.
We all know MLB isn't going to change it. But, it doesn't mean we (the fans) can't complain about their product and delivery. It's far from climatic.
Quote from: cheebs09 on October 01, 2018, 08:48:19 AM
I'm hoping Anderson is the starter and Chacin starts the next game. I don't want to go with a bullpen game in the event we need to play tomorrow.
If the Brewers fall behind I hope all of the high leverage guys rest. I think the 40 man roster still applies for game 163 so some burner arms should be available.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 01, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
Again, we all get the point why. The discussion was how come the fan, who has invested themselves in 162+ games, gets a "Wisconsin Handshake" at the end of the year, playing teams who gave up months ago, with a craptacular playoff system, and the ridicululous jammed in travel for these short series to only accommodate TV.
We all know MLB isn't going to change it. But, it doesn't mean we (the fans) can't complain about their product and delivery. It's far from climatic.
So what do you want? MLB to perfectly predict the season outcome?
Yankees vs Red Sox on the last weekend decided nothing. It's easy to nitpick in hindsight about the Cubs and Brewers but it could have just as easily been as meaningless as Yankees vs Red Sox.
Quote from: cheebs09 on October 01, 2018, 08:48:19 AM
I'm hoping Anderson is the starter and Chacin starts the next game. I don't want to go with a bullpen game in the event we need to play tomorrow.
Chacin announced as the starter.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 01, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
Again, we all get the point why. The discussion was how come the fan, who has invested themselves in 162+ games, gets a "Wisconsin Handshake" at the end of the year, playing teams who gave up months ago, with a craptacular playoff system, and the ridicululous jammed in travel for these short series to only accommodate TV.
We all know MLB isn't going to change it. But, it doesn't mean we (the fans) can't complain about their product and delivery. It's far from climatic.
I never heard of a "Wisconsin Handshake," but the schedule is made up a year in advance.
If you want to complain about the playoff system, go ahead. If you want to complain about travel, fine. But complaining about matchups whose relevance are essentially a dice roll really discredits the rest of the argument.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 01, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
Again, we all get the point why. The discussion was how come the fan, who has invested themselves in 162+ games, gets a "Wisconsin Handshake" at the end of the year, playing teams who gave up months ago, with a craptacular playoff system, and the ridicululous jammed in travel for these short series to only accommodate TV.
We all know MLB isn't going to change it. But, it doesn't mean we (the fans) can't complain about their product and delivery. It's far from climatic.
What jammed up schedule are you talking about?
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on October 01, 2018, 09:08:05 AM
If the Brewers fall behind I hope all of the high leverage guys rest. I think the 40 man roster still applies for game 163 so some burner arms should be available.
40 man today, 25 tomorrow or Thursday
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on October 01, 2018, 09:18:34 AM
So what do you want? MLB to perfectly predict the season outcome?
Yankees vs Red Sox on the last weekend decided nothing. It's easy to nitpick in hindsight about the Cubs and Brewers but it could have just as easily been as meaningless as Yankees vs Red Sox.
How many WS have the Cubs and Brewers won compared to the Yankees and Red Sox. When the the Yanks and Red Sox play it is never meaningless; unless you are a meaningless Cubs' or Brewers' fan.
I get it; this is a Cubs, Brewers and White Sox thread.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 01, 2018, 10:02:04 AM
How many WS have the Cubs and Brewers won compared to the Yankees and Red Sox. When the the Yanks and Red Sox play it is never meaningless; unless you are a meaningless Cubs' or Brewers' fan.
I get it; this is a Cubs, Brewers and White Sox thread.
I meant meaningless as in the division was already decided and the Yankees were locked into #1 wildcard. You read way too much into my comment.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on October 01, 2018, 09:18:34 AM
So what do you want? MLB to perfectly predict the season outcome?
Yankees vs Red Sox on the last weekend decided nothing. It's easy to nitpick in hindsight about the Cubs and Brewers but it could have just as easily been as meaningless as Yankees vs Red Sox.
I want divisional teams to determine their fates. Let's take 2013-2019. The Cubs finished or will finish all 7 years against a division or at least a NL foe. The Brewers were scheduled 3 out of 7 against a division foe to end and only once in from 2016-19. So it can be done.
The Sox and the Tigers threw in the towel two years ago. And if they didn't, who cares. From a fan's standpoint, I want to see teams go head to head at the end to see who wins. This isn't rocket science.
As to jamming it in. The reward for making the post-season after 162 games is to jan in tie breakers followed with crappy travel for two teams on a quick turnaround for one jammed in sudden death game. You know what, cut down on the games against AA teams then. So much for the fans and players.
I know, you Intelligencia will say "so what, that's the rules". Well, those rules making watching baseball near unbearable this time of year. It's simply a crappy product.
Cubs having lot of trouble selling tickets for this tiebreaker game. Secondary market flooded with tickets at half face value right now.
Quote from: MUDish on October 01, 2018, 11:28:14 AM
Cubs having lot of trouble selling tickets for this tiebreaker game. Secondary market flooded with tickets at half face value right now.
But hey, MNF won't be disrupted, hey?
It's crazy on Stubhub right now, prices crashing by the minute. Bleacher seat now $20 (face $74). Was $35 lowest bleacher five minutes ago.
Quote from: MUDish on October 01, 2018, 11:28:14 AM
Cubs having lot of trouble selling tickets for this tiebreaker game. Secondary market flooded with tickets at half face value right now.
Cubs arent having trouble. they sold out minus standing room. Scalpers are the ones struggling.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on October 01, 2018, 11:49:13 AM
Cubs arent having trouble. they sold out minus standing room. Scalpers are the ones struggling.
The Cubs released 1500 seats at 9am on Ticketmaster, they didn't sell out.
Quote from: MUDish on October 01, 2018, 11:56:30 AM
The Cubs released 1500 seats at 9am on Ticketmaster, they didn't sell out.
Went on at 10am. Could only buy standing
Why didn't Rizzo let that ball go foul? That was for sure going foul.
Ditka is the seventh inning stretch guy. As a Brewers fan, that worries me.
Cubs bats are non-existent. Couldn't disagree more with the commentators right there, you're hitless, Chacin throws 3 straight balls, you have Javy take on 3-0 and get a baserunner with Rizzo up. They don't and he pops up ball 4. He's a momentum hitter
Brewers bullpen gonna start in the 6th max, maybe the 5th. This could easily be the final margin, maybe 2-0 Brewers. Happy to be wrong, but when the Cubs start slow, its usually the theme, and a top 2 bullpen opposing them doesnt help.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 01, 2018, 01:14:32 PM
Brewers bullpen gonna start in the 6th max, maybe the 5th. This could easily be the final margin, maybe 2-0 Brewers. Happy to be wrong, but when the Cubs start slow, its usually the theme, and a top 2 bullpen opposing them doesnt help.
@OldTakesExposed
Have the gamecast up at work. Why did Braun try to steal in that situation? Seems unnecessarily reckless when you're trying to build a lead.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 01, 2018, 02:42:00 PM
Have the gamecast up at work. Why did Braun try to steal in that situation? Seems unnecessarily reckless when you're trying to build a lead.
Couple thoughts:
1) Thought the Cubs would let him take it to avoid the possibility of a run scoring on a double steal/error on throw;
2) Thought the Cubs would let him take it and walk Aguilar to put double play in place;
3) Thought the Cubs weren't paying attention because why would he steal to take the bat out of Aguilar's hands;
4) Get in scoring position so a hit scores two.
No idea really, but not a terrible decision.
Cute that ESPN put the hometown announcers on the mothership.
Let's goooooooo
Congrats to the Brewers.
Justin Wilson, oh my...
(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/P21185/milwaukee-wi-usa-12th-june-2018-milwaukee-brewers-third-base-coach-ed-sedar-0-pounds-his-fist-after-two-runs-score-during-the-major-league-baseball-game-between-the-milwaukee-brewers-and-the-chicago-cubs-at-miller-park-in-milwaukee-wi-john-fishercsmalamy-live-news-P21185.jpg)
Congrats to the Brewers. If Cubs win tomorrow, you have to beat them all over again starting Thursday.
Popped champagne in St. Louis last week, Chicago this week. Milwaukee next week, let's gooooooo
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 01, 2018, 03:19:11 PM
Congrats to the Brewers. If Cubs win tomorrow, you have to beat them all over again starting Thursday.
That would be most excellent. Because I sure as hell don't want to face Kershaw x2 in a 5 game series.
Quote from: ChuckyChip on October 01, 2018, 03:50:17 AM
You can't really have a night game in this situation. The loser of the game in LA has to fly, today, to either Chicago or Milwaukee for a game tomorrow. Even if you start the game in LA at 5pm local time, it doesn't finish until (probably) 10:30pm central time, then the losing team has to get to the airport, fly, bus to hotel, etc. That puts them at their final destination in the wee hours of the morning. If you play the game in Chicago at night, then the west coast team has the same problem, waiting to see where to fly. Maybe not ideal situation for fans who have to work, but it's the only way it can be done.
I agree with what you are saying with the case on hand. The schedule needs to be better to the start the year, were MLB rushes the postseason every stinking year. We play for over 6 sticking months to have two games during the workday is a joke for the league.
Hey Chicago what do you say, the Cubs are going to lose today!
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on October 01, 2018, 03:24:13 PM
I agree with what you are saying with the case on hand. The schedule needs to be better to the start the year, were MLB rushes the postseason every stinking year. We play for over 6 sticking months to have two games during the workday is a joke for the league.
whatever...wooooo!
Congrats to the Brew Crew. Well earned finish to the year. Yeti without a doubt the MVP.
See you in MKE.
Quote from: Anti-Dentite on October 01, 2018, 03:25:06 PM
Hey Chicago what do you say, the Cubs are going to lose today!
Congrats to the Brewers fans, excluding Wades, WithoutBias, and this turd.
Justin Wilson throwing an offspeed pitch to Arcia after making him look bad on two heaters was a truly bewildering decision.
Great game. Great rivalry. Nice little rest for the Crew. Big time stress for the Cubs.
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on October 01, 2018, 03:24:13 PM
I agree with what you are saying with the case on hand. The schedule needs to be better to the start the year, were MLB rushes the postseason every stinking year. We play for over 6 sticking months to have two games during the workday is a joke for the league.
It is such a rare occurrence. I just don't think it's that big of a deal.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on October 01, 2018, 03:33:01 PM
Congrats to the Brewers fans, excluding Wades, WithoutBias, and this turd.
Justin Wilson throwing an offspeed pitch to Arcia after making him look bad on two heaters was a truly bewildering decision.
Aww, sad.
Who would've thought, the team with "nobody that's been there" and that "just folded down the stretch last season" (both fake news) would catch the almighty Cubs after being down 5 games to enter the final month of the regular season.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 01, 2018, 03:45:48 PM
Aww, sad.
Who would've thought, the team with "nobody that's been there" and that "just folded down the stretch last season" (both fake news) would catch the almighty Cubs after being down 5 games to enter the final month of the regular season.
Give 'em a break wades. They still have the after effects of playing through a hurricane.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 01, 2018, 03:45:48 PM
Aww, sad.
Who would've thought, the team with "nobody that's been there" and that "just folded down the stretch last season" (both fake news) would catch the almighty Cubs after being down 5 games to enter the final month of the regular season.
Not me. Of course, I didn't say either of these things or that the Brewers didn't earn it.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on October 01, 2018, 03:33:01 PM
Congrats to the Brewers fans, excluding Wades, WithoutBias, and this turd.
Justin Wilson throwing an offspeed pitch to Arcia after making him look bad on two heaters was a truly bewildering decision.
Turd Ferguson at your service.
Why doesn't MLB expand the playoffs to 6 teams and hold a 3-game series between seeds 3-6, and 4-5?
That said, the game today was pretty exciting.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/cubs-cole-hamels-trolls-brewers-fans-says-hes-not-sure-milwaukee-is-a-true-rival/
Good luck tomorrow, Cole!
Quote from: forgetful on October 01, 2018, 04:09:10 PM
Why doesn't MLB expand the playoffs to 6 teams and hold a 3-game series between seeds 3-6, and 4-5?
That said, the game today was pretty exciting.
What I've been told that makes some sense to me is that "rust" affects baseball players more than football players. Making a team sit for a week could be a disadvantage. Personally, I think getting a bye is much more valuable than any possible rust issue.
Quote from: forgetful on October 01, 2018, 04:09:10 PM
Why doesn't MLB expand the playoffs to 6 teams and hold a 3-game series between seeds 3-6, and 4-5?
That said, the game today was pretty exciting.
1. The "rust" factor as TAMU indicated.
2. They don't want to push the schedule out even longer
3. The one game, winner take all of the Wild Card games has proven to be popular.
Quote from: jsglow on October 01, 2018, 03:34:35 PM
Great game. Great rivalry. Nice little rest for the Crew. Big time stress for the Cubs.
And as Brewers fan, the 2nd Wild Card
still sucks
Everything about 1 game playoffs, for the division or the WC, goes against the nonsense MLB rattles on about when you dare suggest you shorten the season a bit. Baseball is about supposedly about variance, so lets have hugely impactful things come down to 1 coin flip game.
But of all the leagues, MLB is the one you expect to get things right the least (well maybe NFL as of late). Totalitarian when it comes to sharing highlights online, but sure, 1 game playoffs cause its EXCITING!
This is not trolling, but legitimate conversation after talking to my best friend who is an Indians fan. Any fear by Brewers fans of the Brewers pulling a 2017 Indians? Similar ends to the season, Indians finished like 26-4 in Sept i think (obviously weren't in a tight division race tho). If they can keep getting decent starts (4-5 innings) then they aren't as susceptible IMO.
Buehler? Buehler?
Quote from: Jockey on October 01, 2018, 04:51:32 PM
Buehler? Buehler?
Kid is unreal. And the Sox drafted another guy in his college rotation with him. And he is not good. Ugh.
Quote from: copious1218 on October 01, 2018, 02:52:41 PM
Couple thoughts:
1) Thought the Cubs would let him take it to avoid the possibility of a run scoring on a double steal/error on throw;
2) Thought the Cubs would let him take it and walk Aguilar to put double play in place;
3) Thought the Cubs weren't paying attention because why would he steal to take the bat out of Aguilar's hands;
4) Get in scoring position so a hit scores two.
No idea really, but not a terrible decision.
Disagree with all of this.
Brewers have a very good hitter up with runners at first and third and one out, and a chance to get in what could have been a huge insurance run. Cubs have one of the best throwing catchers in baseball, and, as everybody knows (and as Kurkjian drooled repeatedly), the greatest tagger in the history of taggety-tag-taggers.
Let the hitter try to hit a fly ball (which he eventually did) to make it 4-1.
I texted my Cubbie fan son (who was at the game) to say that if his boyz came back to tie, they could thank that decision.
Fortunately for the Crew, it didn't matter. Hader made it a little exciting at the end, but otherwise ... wow!
I wouldn't have said this a month ago based on what I had seen, but I'll say it now: The better team won. I really like the way the Crew was put together. A heck of a ballcub. Congrats to all the fans here. Looking forward to a fun postseason.
Quote from: MU82 on October 01, 2018, 05:51:28 PM
Disagree with all of this.
Brewers have a very good hitter up with runners at first and third and one out, and a chance to get in what could have been a huge insurance run. Cubs have one of the best throwing catchers in baseball, and, as everybody knows (and as Kurkjian drooled repeatedly), the greatest tagger in the history of taggety-tag-taggers.
Let the hitter try to hit a fly ball (which he eventually did) to make it 4-1.
I texted my Cubbie fan son (who was at the game) to say that if his boyz came back to tie, they could thank that decision.
Fortunately for the Crew, it didn't matter. Hader made it a little exciting at the end, but otherwise ... wow!
I wouldn't have said this a month ago based on what I had seen, but I'll say it now: The better team won. I really like the way the Crew was put together. A heck of a ballcub. Congrats to all the fans here. Looking forward to a fun postseason.
Just to be clear, I don't think it was a good idea, just answering the question with some possibilities.
Quote from: MU82 on October 01, 2018, 05:51:28 PM
Disagree with all of this.
Brewers have a very good hitter up with runners at first and third and one out, and a chance to get in what could have been a huge insurance run. Cubs have one of the best throwing catchers in baseball, and, as everybody knows (and as Kurkjian drooled repeatedly), the greatest tagger in the history of taggety-tag-taggers.
Let the hitter try to hit a fly ball (which he eventually did) to make it 4-1.
I texted my Cubbie fan son (who was at the game) to say that if his boyz came back to tie, they could thank that decision.
Fortunately for the Crew, it didn't matter. Hader made it a little exciting at the end, but otherwise ... wow!
I wouldn't have said this a month ago based on what I had seen, but I'll say it now: The better team won. I really like the way the Crew was put together. A heck of a ballcub. Congrats to all the fans here. Looking forward to a fun postseason.
Agree on all counts, Mike.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 01, 2018, 04:16:10 PM
1. The "rust" factor as TAMU indicated.
2. They don't want to push the schedule out even longer
3. The one game, winner take all of the Wild Card games has proven to be popular.
Thanks, that makes reasonable sense.
Quote from: copious1218 on October 01, 2018, 06:46:13 PM
Just to be clear, I don't think it was a good idea, just answering the question with some possibilities.
Understood. Sorry if my tone was brusque.
I think you probably were right that Braun/Counsell thought it might surprise the Cubs.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1046876740063305728?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1046876740063305728&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.12up.com%2Fposts%2F6185949-brewers-throttle-cubs-on-twitter-after-capturing-nl-central-title
There's been a lot of talk about how good Yelich and the pen are, but a big factor in the September push has been Santana. He's really come into his own since being optioned down to AAA. After having only one month where he hit over .250 and hitting a remarkably bad .167 in June, he's come back to hit .381 in September, with the majority of his AB's coming in pinch hit roles. His double yesterday was just as big as any of the RBI's IMO.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 01, 2018, 11:27:47 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Brewers/status/1046876740063305728?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1046876740063305728&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.12up.com%2Fposts%2F6185949-brewers-throttle-cubs-on-twitter-after-capturing-nl-central-title
Social media at its absolute finest.
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 02, 2018, 08:01:54 AM
There's been a lot of talk about how good Yelich and the pen are, but a big factor in the September push has been Santana. He's really come into his own since being optioned down to AAA. After having only one month where he hit over .250 and hitting a remarkably bad .167 in June, he's come back to hit .381 in September, with the majority of his AB's coming in pinch hit roles. His double yesterday was just as big as any of the RBI's IMO.
I thought his double was the biggest hit of the game and it kind of got glossed over, put runners on 2nd and 3rd with no out, statistically you're going to get a run out of that in a tie game.
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 02, 2018, 08:01:54 AM
There's been a lot of talk about how good Yelich and the pen are, but a big factor in the September push has been Santana. He's really come into his own since being optioned down to AAA. After having only one month where he hit over .250 and hitting a remarkably bad .167 in June, he's come back to hit .381 in September, with the majority of his AB's coming in pinch hit roles. His double yesterday was just as big as any of the RBI's IMO.
He's a nice weapon to have on the bench no doubt, with only 23 PAs in September I'm not sure he was that much of a factor.
That said, I'd like to see him get a whole lot more time next year. I get that they had too many Ks last year and changed that up with Cain and Yelich, but Santana is starting to reach his prime years and Braun is aging. Santana's OPS last year was pretty damn good, and if he can carry forward the sort of focus he's shown as a PH he could be very dangerous at least splitting time with Braun.
Great game yesterday, congratulations to the Brewers. Today has me nervous as Lester has not been clutch in do or die games. A win would be an amazing NLDS for Cubs and Brewers. Go Cubbies
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 02, 2018, 08:01:54 AM
There's been a lot of talk about how good Yelich and the pen are, but a big factor in the September push has been Santana. He's really come into his own since being optioned down to AAA. After having only one month where he hit over .250 and hitting a remarkably bad .167 in June, he's come back to hit .381 in September, with the majority of his AB's coming in pinch hit roles. His double yesterday was just as big as any of the RBI's IMO.
Knebel, Arcia, and Santana all went down to the minors and returned to be big time contributors in September.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 02, 2018, 09:15:47 AM
Great game yesterday, congratulations to the Brewers. Today has me nervous as Lester has not been clutch in do or die games. A win would be an amazing NLDS for Cubs and Brewers. Go Cubbies
Lester has been fine. The Rockies are the best hitting team in baseball against lefties. And Hamels is the next option if Lester falters. Lets hope lack of rest and travel get to the Rockies. Im VERY worried about Freeland throwing a gem.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/for-one-day-the-small-market-brewers-got-the-best-of-the-big-market-cubs/
Times and Networks
https://twitter.com/MLB_PR/status/1047154124914081792
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on October 02, 2018, 11:36:02 AM
Times and Networks
https://twitter.com/MLB_PR/status/1047154124914081792
Won't be able to see Thursday. Probably most of Friday. But Sunday is after the Packer game!
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 02, 2018, 09:02:31 AM
He's a nice weapon to have on the bench no doubt, with only 23 PAs in September I'm not sure he was that much of a factor.
That said, I'd like to see him get a whole lot more time next year. I get that they had too many Ks last year and changed that up with Cain and Yelich, but Santana is starting to reach his prime years and Braun is aging. Santana's OPS last year was pretty damn good, and if he can carry forward the sort of focus he's shown as a PH he could be very dangerous at least splitting time with Braun.
The unfortunate thing is that there is no platoon benefit to speak of with Braun and Santana, so the playing time balance would have to be solely due to Braun's decline/Santana's prime (Santana has a weird reverse split thing going on this year, but that wasn't the case last year and I'm going to chalk it up to sample size).
Its too bad for the Brewers that the early signs of Braun's decline is that he's just going to give you less of everything, as opposed to slowly turning into that older power bat that still mashes LHP but struggles against righties. With his contract, that would actually probably be better for the Crew, even if it made him less of a player overall, becuase you could go out and get him a platoon partner that plays passable OF and be in good shape.
Did Schwarber have to go take a piss or something? Why did Maddon hit Heyward there?
My 12yr old is now PISSED he couldn't wear his sunglasses on the mound tonight (16-2 W).
Quote from: MUDish on October 02, 2018, 09:37:48 PM
Did Schwarber have to go take a piss or something? Why did Maddon hit Heyward there?
Cause he's an overmanaging idiot in key games. He's had no control over this team for a month. Why start now. Literally 0 good reason for that move. He's been trash tonight
What is the purpose of replay?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 02, 2018, 09:42:55 PM
Cause he's an overmanaging idiot in key games. He's had no control over this team for a month. Why start now. Literally 0 good reason for that move. He's been trash tonight
Per twitter, Hayward is the only one to have faced Ottavino prior, with success.
Not saying it's the correct decision, but it's one explanation.
How is that force out at 2nd not overturned? He beat the throw by two feet.
The ESPN Statcast telecast is way better than the ARod broadcast.
Wrigley, due to its age/setup doesn't have the camera angles other parks due. Kind of embarrassing for MLB and Wrigley.
Listening to the SCORE today and they gave an interesting stat
Team with biggest hitting improvement this year? Boston sans Chili Davis.
Biggest slippage in hitting? Cubbies adding Chili Davis.
Ottavino paid ZERO attention to Gore, that was terrible. Gore probably steals successfully anyway, but geez.
Quote from: MUDish on October 02, 2018, 10:04:16 PM
Ottavino paid ZERO attention to Gore, that was terrible. Gore probably steals successfully anyway, but geez.
Gore looked like he was running on motion.... easy chance for a PO/CS if Ottavino simply steps off the rubber.
I get it's tough being an NL manager in the postseason, but tonight won't go down in Bud Black's managerial career highlights.
In addition to being the best tagger and slider in the history of baseball, Javy is the best hugger in the baseline ever, too!
Cubs offense fails them in the 2 biggest games of the season
Not looking good.
Hendricks looked like he was gassed. I don't know how many times he got up to get loose, but he left everything up in the zone this inning.
Quote from: MUDish on October 02, 2018, 11:53:05 PM
Hendricks looked like he was gassed. I don't know how many times he got up to get loose, but he left everything up in the zone this inning.
Yep
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 02, 2018, 11:51:14 PM
Cubs offense fails them in the 2 biggest games of the season
Next to the Orioles, the Cubs have lost more 0 or 1 run games in all of MLB. It's been a season-long problem.
A talented, undisciplined team. Baez was a joke in his last at bat.
Love watching teams celebrate at Wrigley.
Honestly, they didn't deserve it. Some mind numbing decisions from Maddon throughout the entire year. Stretches where they couldn't hit a 16" softball let alone a baseball, shame really that team is too talented to go out in the wild card round. 2 runs in 22 innings of baseball at Wrigley.
Ah well, time to hop aboard the Brewers bandwagon.
Time to start complaining about the inequities of the 2nd wild card?
Quote from: Benny B on October 03, 2018, 12:13:46 AM
Time to start complaining about the inequities of the 2nd wild card?
No. But 13 innings in your 33rd straight game, 41st in 42 days is pretty nuts. Oh, and it's cause winning the season series isn't enough to break a tie
Cubs choked, they scored no critical runs, and their manager let them down. But the structure that put them in that position in the first place is pretty lame.
Some will call it reactionary, but I'm done with Maddon. I can't think of the last time I was truly pleased or impressed with what he did. He was terrible in the 2017 playoffs too. He can drive Chili Davis out of town.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2018, 12:29:02 AM
No. But 13 innings in your 33rd straight game, 41st in 42 days is pretty nuts. Oh, and it's cause winning the season series isn't enough to break a tie
Cubs choked, they scored no critical runs, and their manager let them down. But the structure that put them in that position in the first place is pretty lame.
Some will call it reactionary, but I'm done with Maddon. I can't think of the last time I was truly pleased or impressed with what he did. He was terrible in the 2017 playoffs too. He can drive Chili Davis out of town.
Yea I'm with ya on Maddon. Great with young players as shown with both the Rays and the Cubs but a sub par in game manager. I don't think the Cubs fire him, but as I said earlier in the season, offer him a nice cushy front office job.
Curious to see how the Cubs go about this offseason. 2 runs scored total in their two final/biggest games of the year.
They have a big decision to make on Hamels. He still has plenty in the tank, but I can't see the Cubs picking up the $20 mil option. The Chatwood/Darvish signings really hamstring them going into '19. Bryant is going to be an interesting Arb 2 case. The Cubs focus should be to buy out his remaining arbitration years and lock him into his early 30's. Whispers out there that there's still some lingering sourness from Bryant's call up. Baez and Contreras are both arbitration eligible this year as well.
They certainly have the resources to spend, I don't believe they're inclined to go into the luxury tax range though.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2018, 12:29:02 AM
No. But 13 innings in your 33rd straight game, 41st in 42 days is pretty nuts. Oh, and it's cause winning the season series isn't enough to break a tie
Cubs choked, they scored no critical runs, and their manager let them down. But the structure that put them in that position in the first place is pretty lame.
Oh please. Cubs had to win one of two at home to get home field advantage through the NL playoffs. That's after playing the last seven regular season games at home.
And they scored two runs over 22 innings.
Colorado has to fly from Washington in Sunday, to LA on Monday to Chicago on Tuesday.
It is what it is. Complaining about it is pretty lame.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 03, 2018, 06:20:53 AM
Oh please. Cubs had to win one of two at home to get home field advantage through the NL playoffs. That's after playing the last seven regular season games at home.
And they scored two runs over 22 innings.
Colorado has to fly from Washington in Sunday, to LA on Monday to Chicago on Tuesday.
It is what it is. Complaining about it is pretty lame.
No kidding, every chance in the world to get it done in your own park. No excuses, the Chubbies just weren't good enough.
Quote from: MUDish on October 03, 2018, 01:08:48 AM
Curious to see how the Cubs go about this offseason. 2 runs scored total in their two final/biggest games of the year.
They have a big decision to make on Hamels. He still has plenty in the tank, but I can't see the Cubs picking up the $20 mil option. The Chatwood/Darvish signings really hamstring them going into '19. Bryant is going to be an interesting Arb 2 case. The Cubs focus should be to buy out his remaining arbitration years and lock him into his early 30's. Whispers out there that there's still some lingering sourness from Bryant's call up. Baez and Contreras are both arbitration eligible this year as well.
They certainly have the resources to spend, I don't believe they're inclined to go into the luxury tax range though.
Cubs have boatloads of $$$ if they want to get Harper, Machado or both. They probably won't. Agree on Hamels. There's still a grievance out on the Bryant call up, but Boras went out of his way to compliment Maddon when Russell and Bryant were brought up in 2015. Russell is done with the Cubs. I have to think one of Happ, Schwarber or Almora won't be back. Hopefully Chatwood will figure out his mechanics, Darvish and Morrow come back healthy. Cubs played 9 extra games in 2015, 17 in 2016, 10 in 2017. In a league where every team is looking for the tiniest advantage, the extra rest will be good this season.
Finally, what kind of trade package could you get back for Javy? I can't think I'm the only cubs fan who thought this season was the statistical outlier... It does get complicated that you would have to find 2 middle infielders now and (jokes aside) his defense at 3 positions is legit.
Quote from: Jockey on October 02, 2018, 10:00:11 PM
Listening to the SCORE today and they gave an interesting stat
Team with biggest hitting improvement this year? Boston sans Chili Davis.
Biggest slippage in hitting? Cubbies adding Chili Davis.
I think David Ortiz was kind of a untitled hitting coach with the Red Sox and was the guy a lot of guys went to for help/advice. When he left after 2017 the team offense took a turn south. Sox were much more aggressive in the strike zone this year, whereas the past few years they were taking a lot of very hittable pitches for strike one. I think his leaving helped for sure.
It's .. amusing that none of the Chicago tv news websites have any video of last night's game/wrapup/etc.
I realize the game ended late, but it seems like they decided, nope, not gonna have video of that, see you next year, have some Arby's.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2018, 12:29:02 AM
No. But 13 innings in your 33rd straight game, 41st in 42 days is pretty nuts. Oh, and it's cause winning the season series isn't enough to break a tie
Cubs choked, they scored no critical runs, and their manager let them down. But the structure that put them in that position in the first place is pretty lame.
Some will call it reactionary, but I'm done with Maddon. I can't think of the last time I was truly pleased or impressed with what he did. He was terrible in the 2017 playoffs too. He can drive Chili Davis out of town.
Are you suggesting that it was unfair that the Cubs were forced into an extra game to win the division? ::)
Chi town has it right. They were an undisciplined paper tiger this year. By September the cracks in their armour were apparent. Of the 4 teams playing the extra date on Monday, the 3 best advanced.
And with home field throughout, I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see the Crew claim the pennant. But it won't be easy.
Quote from: jsglow on October 03, 2018, 08:26:56 AM
Are you suggesting that it was unfair that the Cubs were forced into an extra game to win the division? ::)
Chi town has it right. They were an undisciplined paper tiger this year. By September the cracks in their armour were apparent. Of the 4 teams playing the extra date on Monday, the 3 best advanced.
And with home field throughout, I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see the Crew claim the pennant. But it won't be easy.
The Brewers are on a roll, they have an excellent bullpen, they added depth, they have home field in an indoor stadium. Starting pitching has been solid but with no DH, starters get you 5-6 innings in the post-season anyway. The Rockies do have the bats, though, and stealing a road game in a five game series would be big for a team built for Coors Field...in the Battle of the Miller-Coors Brands.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 03, 2018, 12:38:39 AM
Yea I'm with ya on Maddon. Great with young players as shown with both the Rays and the Cubs but a sub par in game manager. I don't think the Cubs fire him, but as I said earlier in the season, offer him a nice cushy front office job.
Honestly, the questions about Maddon have always been there. I've been reading through the 2016 World Series thread because I recall him making a number of bewildering decisions in the championship year. His use of Chapman, when he did and didn't use Schwarber, a complete inability to play small ball and use bunts in the playoffs, even in his greatest moment of success he did a lot of questionable things. Really, two of the main topics from that thread were Cubs fans questioning Maddon and wades going on (and on and on and on and on) about Arrietta and PEDs. From that thread:
Quote from: Pakuni on October 26, 2016, 02:26:35 PMShould we be discussing Maddon's decision to leave Schwarber - career .143/.213/.268 vs lefties - in to hit against Miller with two on and two out in the 8th? Maddon is a great manager and has more often than not pushed the right buttons, but that there was a questionable move.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 28, 2016, 11:03:28 PMJoe Maddon should be fired! Baseball 101. Bunt!
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 30, 2016, 09:35:54 PMI think Joe forgot what inning it was.
Quote from: MUDish on November 01, 2016, 10:29:24 PMMaddon makes some baffling decisions.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 02, 2016, 10:18:30 PMThis is all on Maddon. Took Hendricks out too early, took Lester out too early. Not many bullets left in the bullpen.
I can freely admit to not paying nearly as close of attention this year. Winning the WS in 2016 was such a lightening feeling that I don't feel the obsessive October need to zero in on "will this be the year?" But it was clear the offense dried up in September. Whether that was Chili Davis or mismanagement I can't fully say, but I do think moving Maddon to a front office job and looking a different managerial direction is probably called for.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 03, 2018, 08:38:05 AM
The Brewers are on a roll, they have an excellent bullpen, they added depth, they have home field in an indoor stadium. Starting pitching has been solid but with no DH, starters get you 5-6 innings in the post-season anyway. The Rockies do have the bats, though, and stealing a road game in a five game series would be big for a team built for Coors Field...in the Battle of the Miller-Coors Brands.
I wouldn't be surprised if they win the pennant. I wouldn't be surprised if they lose to the Rockies. Baseball can be that way.
96 hours ago the Cubs had a 1 game lead for home field
Quote from: #bansultan on October 03, 2018, 08:47:25 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they win the pennant. I wouldn't be surprised if they lose to the Rockies. Baseball can be that way.
(https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-we-do-know-of-certain-knowledge-that-he-osama-bin-laden-is-either-in-afghanistan-or-donald-rumsfeld-64-46-95.jpg)
Quote from: jsglow on October 03, 2018, 08:26:56 AM
Are you suggesting that it was unfair that the Cubs were forced into an extra game to win the division? ::)
Chi town has it right. They were an undisciplined paper tiger this year. By September the cracks in their armour were apparent. Of the 4 teams playing the extra date on Monday, the 3 best advanced.
And with home field throughout, I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see the Crew claim the pennant. But it won't be easy.
I was definitely pulling for the Cubs as I thought they'd be the easier team to beat. You can blame it fatigue, injuries, or whatever, but they came into October playing poorly relative to others.
Quote from: jsglow on October 03, 2018, 08:26:56 AM
Are you suggesting that it was unfair that the Cubs were forced into an extra game to win the division? ::)
I believe that MLB has always used a a tie-breaker in the case of ties. I think the only exception to this was during the one Wild Card era when there was a tie at the top a division and one of those teams was guaranteed the Wild Card spot. Since both teams were going to the Division Series, it was seen as unnecessary.
(Currently if both Wild Card teams are tied, they use tie-breakers as well.)
Quote from: MUDPT on October 03, 2018, 07:00:46 AM
Cubs have boatloads of $$$ if they want to get Harper, Machado or both.
This was my first thought as well (and as a Brewer fan, it scares the heck out of me). Off-seasons are reactionary, and the Cubs offense was bad for long stretches this season. Slotting in Machado (there's a spot open at SS) or Harper (push Hayward to center) would be a huge boon for that offense, and unlike ~24 clubs in MLB, the Cubs can afford to go after one or both of them.
So I'll be cheering for everyone else (Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, Nats) to pull out their pocketbooks and write a bigger check.
That sucked, but wait until next year!
ESPN & ESPN2 combined to deliver a 5.1 metered market rating for Tuesday's Rockies/Cubs.
18.6 rating in Denver, 18.1 rating in Chicago, 11.9 rating in Milwaukee.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 03, 2018, 08:47:25 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they win the pennant. I wouldn't be surprised if they lose to the Rockies. Baseball can be that way.
Same here, Brewers have a different, better feel than I had in 2011 but who ever knows, I am enjoying the ride as it should be.
I thought the Rockies would be the team no one wanted to face in the NL playoffs, but I have to wonder what they've got left in the tank. At some point, the physical/emotional toll of travel/high stress games has to catch up with them (right?). FWIW, I think they lucked out a little bit in that they didn't have to get on a plane to go up to Milwaukee, but have to think this sets up well for the Brewers. Baseball will be baseball though, so who knows. Part of me would love to see a Brewers/A's World Series, be cool to have some fresh blood competing for a title.
Quote from: MUDish on October 03, 2018, 10:11:44 AM
I thought the Rockies would be the team no one wanted to face in the NL playoffs, but I have to wonder what they've got left in the tank. At some point, the physical/emotional toll of travel/high stress games has to catch up with them (right?). FWIW, I think they lucked out a little bit in that they didn't have to get on a plane to go up to Milwaukee, but have to think this sets up well for the Brewers. Baseball will be baseball though, so who knows. Part of me would love to see a Brewers/A's World Series, be cool to have some fresh blood competing for a title.
As a fan of the sport, I want to see Brewers vs. As more than any other series. Two new faces, small market teams, and two great bullpens.
As a Brewer fan living in Texas, I want to see Brewers vs. Astros so I can drive down for a game!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 03, 2018, 11:05:10 AM
As a fan of the sport, I want to see Brewers vs. As more than any other series. Two new faces, small market teams, and two great bullpens.
As a Brewer fan living in Texas, I want to see Brewers vs. Astros so I can drive down for a game!
Brewers-As would have the potentially to fundamentally change baseball. Bullpen use has been up across the league lately and especially in the postseason (see: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/forget-starting-pitchers-its-bullpen-season/ ). The As and Brewers are two teams leading that charge, along with Tampa. I'm not convinced a single starting pitcher would throw more than 4 innings in a start. Bullpen use might jump the 50% threshold.
MLB does not want Brewers-As. Bullpen-heavy games are longer with less scoring. Brewers and As are small markets.
I say screw MLB. Let's make it happen.
When do teams have to announce their 25? Two preductions: Crew goes with 12 pitchers and Santana earns the last spot.
Thumbs up to the 40ish players that got us here. Freddy, Eric, Keon, etc.
Quote from: jsglow on October 03, 2018, 01:00:44 PM
When do teams have to announce their 25? Two preductions: Crew goes with 12 pitchers and Santana earns the last spot.
Thumbs up to the 40ish players that got us here. Freddy, Eric, Keon, etc.
I think Davies, Freddy, and Woodruff make the cut, 13 pitchers. I think with the way Counsell likes to manage, he will opt for more arms. If he wants an extra bat I think the pecking order is Santana, Broxton, Thames. All played important roles in getting here, but unfortunately I think they end up on the outside looking in.
A few thoughts ...
1. I'm all in on the Crew. I think they have a talented, entertaining team. And given that I haven't really been a fan of any MLB team for more than 3 decades, I might as well pull for the team that gave me many great memories during my years at Marquette.
2. Is it wrong for me to root for the Brewers to win the World Series while hoping Braun goes 0-for-70 this postseason?
3. MLB and the networks have to be very disappointed. I think Brewers-Rockies will be a good, fun series, but you know the honchos wanted the Cubbies. Cue Mick Jagger: You can't always get ...
4. Cubs could have extended their season by winning either one of two home games (in which they ended up getting excellent pitching), but they managed to score only 2 runs in 22 innings.
5. Extend that back to Saturday's 2-1 loss to the Cards, and the Cubs scored only 1 run in each of three crucial games - games in which their pitchers gave up 2, 3 and 2 runs. They win any one of those games, they are still alive.
6. To paraphrase ex-Twinkie great Gary Gaetti: It's tough to hit with both hands wrapped around your throat!
7. Agree with those who talk about this being an extremely interesting offseason for the Cubs. My son - yuuuge Cubbie fan - is convinced they have to get either Machado or Harper.
8. I liked the comment about Baez's final at-bat. He employed my thinking on the tee box: Close your eyes and swing hard as you can, just in case you hit it. I guess it didn't dawn on him that if he gets a l'il ol' base hit and then steals second, the Cubs could be in good position to tie it. Hell of a player, though - one of the 10 best I saw this year for sure. I wouldn't even think about trading him.
9. Before the 3-2 pitch to Gore in the 13th, A-Rod said the Cubs should have given Gore the take sign. If it was a strike, so be it, he'd be out. But A-Rod felt it wasn't worth taking the chance that such a terrible hitter would swing at Ball 4. I nodded in agreement. 5 seconds later ... Strike 3 on a ball almost in the dirt.
10. Did anybody else catch the graphic on ESPN that Heyward has the lowest postseason batting average in MLB history - .149? Yikes! But he does give a hell of a speech during a WS rain delay.
11. ESPN is saying today that Maddon will be back. I moved away from Chicago several years before he arrived, so I have no idea how he is regarded by the players, coaches, execs. But the Cubs did win their first championship in 108 years under his watch, and they have made the postseason four straight years for the first time ever. Unless there is a larger issue (players quit on him, etc), seems only fair to give him another year, especially since they are paying him big bucks anyway. This almost surely means Chili will have to fall on his sword, which probably is justified.
12. Go Brewers!
Quote from: MU82 on October 03, 2018, 01:23:33 PM
A few thoughts ...
9. Before the 3-2 pitch to Gore in the 13th, A-Rod said the Cubs should have given Gore the take sign. If it was a strike, so be it, he'd be out. But A-Rod felt it wasn't worth taking the chance that such a terrible hitter would swing at Ball 4. I nodded in agreement. 5 seconds later ... Strike 3 on a ball almost in the dirt.
Even before A-Rod's comment, I said there can only be 2 things Maddon should signal. Either bunt (doesn't matter if there are two strikes as he will K on any pitch over the plate anyway). Or leave the bat on your shoulder.
I'm kind of surprised that Ron Roenicke's name hasn't been brought up as a potential manager the last couple of years. I thought he was pretty successful in Milwaukee and has a good reputation.
Can anybody help me out?
A couple buddies from WI and I will be hanging out in the Twin Cities this weekend. Anybody know of a Brewer friendly sports bar in the Twin Cities to catch Sunday's game? I wouldn't ask, except that the Brewers game is the same time as the Viking game and makes harder to find a good place for Brewer Baseball.
Appreciate any advice.
Ring up BeeJay. He'll hook ya up, hey?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2018, 12:29:02 AM
Some will call it reactionary, but I'm done with Maddon. I can't think of the last time I was truly pleased or impressed with what he did. He was terrible in the 2017 playoffs too. He can drive Chili Davis out of town.
Even though I'm not a Cub fan, I don't think you could be more wrong.
This is ALL on Theo.
1) He spent Mega-$$$$$ for 2 very questionable pitchers who showed why there were so many questions on them.
2) He ignored the team's biggest need - hitters at the top of the lineup. He fell in love with Happ (who I think will be a good player), Almora (just a guy), and Russell (a poor man's Jordy Mercer). Cain was available to Theo. He could have gotten Yelich with a combo of the above players and maybe a minor leaguer. Instead, his off-season was a miserable failure.
He gave Joe nothing for the top of the lineup. He failed to recognize how important it is to have "dominant" arms in the pen.
Joe made some mistakes, but all managers do.
Quote from: jsglow on October 03, 2018, 01:00:44 PM
When do teams have to announce their 25? Two preductions: Crew goes with 12 pitchers and Santana earns the last spot.
Thumbs up to the 40ish players that got us here. Freddy, Eric, Keon, etc.
EDITED: Turns out the deadline for the WC game is day before, but deadline to set the DS roster is the
morning of Game 1 (around 9:00a CT).
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 03, 2018, 11:05:10 AM
As a fan of the sport, I want to see Brewers vs. As more than any other series. Two new faces, small market teams, and two great bullpens.
As a Brewer fan living in Texas, I want to see Brewers vs. Astros so I can drive down for a game!
I am looking forward to #28, though a long shot.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 03, 2018, 01:49:40 PM
I am looking forward to #28, though a long shot.
Kinda funny that the Yankee$ are flying under the radar.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 03, 2018, 01:36:09 PM
I'm kind of surprised that Ron Roenicke's name hasn't been brought up as a potential manager the last couple of years. I thought he was pretty successful in Milwaukee and has a good reputation.
Because Mark F'ing Kotsay.
In CF
Over Carlos Gomez
In the NLCS
(http://www.thegoldensombrero.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/kotsayflop4.jpg)
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 03, 2018, 02:07:53 PM
Because Mark F'ing Kotsay.
In CF
Over Carlos Gomez
In the NLCS
(http://www.thegoldensombrero.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/kotsayflop4.jpg)
Seriously? Kotsay was .400 lifetime against Carpenter and went 1 for 2 with a HR and 2 BB's in that game. Gomez was already splitting time with T-Plush at CF and was 0 for 5 in games 1 & 2. If anything,
not starting Kotsay in that game would have been managerial negligence.
Quote from: Benny B on October 03, 2018, 02:28:39 PM
Seriously? Kotsay was .400 lifetime against Carpenter and went 1 for 2 with a HR and 2 BB's in that game. Gomez was already splitting time with T-Plush at CF and was 0 for 5 in games 1 & 2. If anything, not starting Kotsay in that game would have been managerial negligence.
Disagree
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011/10/13/sports/NLCS/NLCS-jumbo.jpg)
You want his bat in the line-up? Ok. In CF, a position he rarely had ever played, while declining in skills, while a gold glove caliber CF was available? No.
And we can add starting Shaun Marcum, who's arm was falling off, for game 6.
Brewers v Yankees would be outstanding.
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwixidqmkOvdAhWoxYMKHYasB2oQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themakingofmilwaukee.com%2Fclassroom%2Fphoto_large.cfm%3Fcat%3D8%26p%3D532&psig=AOvVaw0hycGrHX2zJQf2kTzXAbch&ust=1538685477372344)
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on October 03, 2018, 03:41:18 PM
Brewers v Yankees would be outstanding.
In the fall of my senior year, 1981, the Brewers and Yankees met in a weird little series. The season was split into two "halves" because of a strike, and the leader at the time of the strike (in AL East, the Yankees) met the team with the best record for the remainder of the season after the resumption of play (Brewers). The winner of the series would go on to play in the ALCS.
I was a big Yankees fan back then and the first two games of the series at County Stadium - which the Yankees won. The Brewers then won the twice at Yankee Stadium to force a fifth game (also in NY), which the Yankees won.
In Game 2, Lou Piniella and Reggie Jackson homered, Dave Righetti got the win, and Goose got the save. I remember going nuts when Reggie went yard, much to the chagrin of my Brewer-fan friends.
Haven't been a Yankee fan (or fan of any MLB team) since the mid-80s ... but rooting for the Crew now!
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 03, 2018, 02:38:42 PM
Disagree
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011/10/13/sports/NLCS/NLCS-jumbo.jpg)
You want his bat in the line-up? Ok. In CF, a position he rarely had ever played, while declining in skills, while a gold glove caliber CF was available? No.
And we can add starting Shaun Marcum, who's arm was falling off, for game 6.
Gallardo and Carpenter were the starters for that game. Gallardo was coming off a career season and a stellar NLDS performance and had very favorable groundout and line drive percentages such that even when the ball was aired to the outfield, the vast majority were lazy fly balls or HR's (i.e. CF range/defense irrelevant).
Carpenter, on the other hand, was having a middling season both overall and against the Brewers. I don't want to speak for managerial decisions, but with Gallardo on the mound, you can't blame a manager for trading offense for defense in Game 3, especially after coming off a blowout loss at home in Game 2.
BTW: That picture is from Game 4... Kotsay started that game in RF and was replaced by Gomez for defense late. Nevertheless, Brewers won that game, so doesn't really help your case against RR.
As far as Game 6, Marcum was clearly out of gas at the end of September (turns out he was hurt) and should have been shut down after Game 3 vs. Arizona... but what was the alternative at that point? If Marcum was gassed, Narveson was DOA. You could have thrown Gallardo back in there on 3 days' rest, but then you're bringing Randy Wolf back on 3 days' rest.
Listen, we were all more than nauseous going into Game 6 with Marcum on the mound (I had to give my tickets to my mother because I just couldn't bear to be there in person), but there was some solace that if Marcum could have pulled something out of his 6 or if the offense could pick him up, you had your ace on the mound in Game 7, at home. It's one of those damned-if-you-do/don't situations where the manager is a genius if it works and a moron if it doesn't.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 03, 2018, 02:38:42 PM
Disagree
You want his bat in the line-up? Ok. In CF, a position he rarely had ever played, while declining in skills, while a gold glove caliber CF was available? No.
And we can add starting Shaun Marcum, who's arm was falling off, for game 6.
All that said, I really am enjoying debating the debacle of 2011 given the current situation... as optimistic as I was 24 hours ago, I'm 200% more optimistic now about the Crew marching through the NL. Kershaw and Ryu be damned... Brewers are invincible simply on the basis that they have no necessary evils (a la Shaun Marcum and Mark Kotsay) on their current roster.
Quote from: Benny B on October 03, 2018, 04:09:46 PM
Gallardo and Carpenter were the starters for that game. Gallardo was coming off a career season and a stellar NLDS performance and had very favorable groundout and line drive percentages such that even when the ball was aired to the outfield, the vast majority were lazy fly balls or HR's (i.e. CF range/defense irrelevant).
Carpenter, on the other hand, was having a middling season both overall and against the Brewers. I don't want to speak for managerial decisions, but with Gallardo on the mound, you can't blame a manager for trading offense for defense in Game 3, especially after coming off a blowout loss at home in Game 2.
BTW: That picture is from Game 4... Kotsay started that game in RF and was replaced by Gomez for defense late. Nevertheless, Brewers won that game, so doesn't really help your case against RR.
As far as Game 6, Marcum was clearly out of gas at the end of September (turns out he was hurt) and should have been shut down after Game 3 vs. Arizona... but what was the alternative at that point? If Marcum was gassed, Narveson was DOA. You could have thrown Gallardo back in there on 3 days' rest, but then you're bringing Randy Wolf back on 3 days' rest.
Listen, we were all more than nauseous going into Game 6 with Marcum on the mound (I had to give my tickets to my mother because I just couldn't bear to be there in person), but there was some solace that if Marcum could have pulled something out of his 6 or if the offense could pick him up, you had your ace on the mound in Game 7, at home. It's one of those damned-if-you-do/don't situations where the manager is a genius if it works and a moron if it doesn't.
I think the major issue was that EVERYONE knew that Marcum was going to suck. And he did giving up four in the first.
That being said, I thought Roenicke did a good job with that team over his tenure. I mean, freaking Bud Black got a second chance at being a manager after eight seasons of .477 ball and never making the playoffs.
Quote from: Jockey on October 03, 2018, 01:38:38 PM
Even though I'm not a Cub fan, I don't think you could be more wrong.
This is ALL on Theo.
1) He spent Mega-$$$$$ for 2 very questionable pitchers who showed why there were so many questions on them.
2) He ignored the team's biggest need - hitters at the top of the lineup. He fell in love with Happ (who I think will be a good player), Almora (just a guy), and Russell (a poor man's Jordy Mercer). Cain was available to Theo. He could have gotten Yelich with a combo of the above players and maybe a minor leaguer. Instead, his off-season was a miserable failure.
He gave Joe nothing for the top of the lineup. He failed to recognize how important it is to have "dominant" arms in the pen.
Joe made some mistakes, but all managers do.
Its both. I mean, this team still won 95 games. They didn't have great depth, but its not horrible. If they missed the playoffs, maybe. But they had enough talent and pieces to win the division and see what you got in October.
Russell, scumbag behavior aside, is a Gold Glove caliber SS, that's why he's in there. I figure you're trolling about Mercer, but come on. Russell has a better OPS and is a better fielder, and he's still younger than when Mercer made his MLB debut, 4 seasons in. But he's gone, so whatever.
I was not a Darvish fan, still am not, but he had been durable post-Tommy John, 30 starts, 200ish innings the last two years. Consistency, not injury was the potential issue. Cant bury that just yet. But Chatwood is an unmitigated disaster, and thats on Theo. As for the bullpen, he got Cishek, he got Morrow. Again you dont expect the latter to miss as much time as he did. When 2 of your 4 biggest pitching signings get hurt and 1 is a disaster, it can look like you didn't do enough.
But I do agree 100% about the top of the order. They never replaced Dexter Fowler. Happ and Almora are nothing more than 4th outfielders. Love Schwarber, but its time to explore trading him to the AL where he belongs.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 03, 2018, 09:29:27 AM
That sucked, but wait until next year!
Well, of course, but they will have to do without Addison for 40 games, unless he is able to appeal and get it reduced or....
or just go straight to rehab??
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24883798/chicago-cubs-shortstop-addison-russell-suspended-40-games-mlb
Brewers going with the out getters pitching rotation for game 1.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 03, 2018, 04:48:10 PM
Brewers going with the out getters pitching rotation for game 1.
And Chachin is pitching on short rest for game 2, but won't go deep into the game.
I think it makes sense. 2/3 of the Crew's top pitchers are southpaws and Rockies devour lefthanders. Try to build a 2-0 lead, risk a lefty in game 3, and then probably do another bullpen game if it gets to 4.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 03, 2018, 04:35:53 PM
Russell, scumbag behavior aside, is a Gold Glove caliber SS, that's why he's in there. I figure you're trolling about Mercer, but come on. Russell has a better OPS and is a better fielder, and he's still younger than when Mercer made his MLB debut, 4 seasons in. But he's gone, so whatever.
I was not a Darvish fan, still am not, but he had been durable post-Tommy John, 30 starts, 200ish innings the last two years. Consistency, not injury was the potential issue. Cant bury that just yet. But Chatwood is an unmitigated disaster, and thats on Theo. As for the bullpen, he got Cishek, he got Morrow. Again you dont expect the latter to miss as much time as he did. When 2 of your 4 biggest pitching signings get hurt and 1 is a disaster, it can look like you didn't do enough.
Of course you expected Morrow to miss time as it was just a question of when, not if, he would get hurt. 30 IP is right in line with what he has been able to pitch for the last 5 years. Why would they expect different?Shoulda resigned Davis.
Don't understand why people think Russell is anything special.
Quote from: Benny B on October 03, 2018, 04:09:46 PM
Gallardo and Carpenter were the starters for that game. Gallardo was coming off a career season and a stellar NLDS performance and had very favorable groundout and line drive percentages such that even when the ball was aired to the outfield, the vast majority were lazy fly balls or HR's (i.e. CF range/defense irrelevant).
Carpenter, on the other hand, was having a middling season both overall and against the Brewers. I don't want to speak for managerial decisions, but with Gallardo on the mound, you can't blame a manager for trading offense for defense in Game 3, especially after coming off a blowout loss at home in Game 2.
BTW: That picture is from Game 4... Kotsay started that game in RF and was replaced by Gomez for defense late. Nevertheless, Brewers won that game, so doesn't really help your case against RR.
As far as Game 6, Marcum was clearly out of gas at the end of September (turns out he was hurt) and should have been shut down after Game 3 vs. Arizona... but what was the alternative at that point? If Marcum was gassed, Narveson was DOA. You could have thrown Gallardo back in there on 3 days' rest, but then you're bringing Randy Wolf back on 3 days' rest.
Listen, we were all more than nauseous going into Game 6 with Marcum on the mound (I had to give my tickets to my mother because I just couldn't bear to be there in person), but there was some solace that if Marcum could have pulled something out of his 6 or if the offense could pick him up, you had your ace on the mound in Game 7, at home. It's one of those damned-if-you-do/don't situations where the manager is a genius if it works and a moron if it doesn't.
Agree on Marcum. The hope was he could miraculously pull something out of the hat, but he had proven over the six weeks that that was at best a pipe dream. Virtually anyone would have been a better choice.
The picture I pulled was captioned as the fly ball from Jay that he missed, so if it was from a different game I'm sorry. As write ups said afterwards, its a ball Morgan gets to, and one CarGo catches standing up. But between him getting picked off 2nd and missing that fly ball, we were down 4-0 in a blink.
Kotsay was some weird talisman for Roenicke and he put the guy in a position to fail horribly.
Quote from: Jockey on October 03, 2018, 05:06:20 PM
Shoulda resigned Davis.
Don't understand why people think Russell is anything special.
Def wish they would have.
And cause he's an All Star and Gold Glove caliber defender. I think Brandon Crawford is his conservative potential if healthy and out of trouble. Not untradeable, but not "just a guy"
Woodruff with the start. Crew goes with 11 pitchers, leaving most of the lefty guys in the clubhouse. Santana and Broxton get the nod. I gotta give Couns and Stearns credit. They studied the analytics because all 25 will play key roles these next handful. Expect hockey line changes if they advance.
Quote from: MU82 on October 03, 2018, 02:03:32 PM
Kinda funny that the Yankee$ are flying under the radar.
The Red $ox, Cub$ and A$tro$ all have bigger payroll than the Yanks, not to mention the Met$.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 04, 2018, 12:32:32 PM
The Red $ox, Cub$ and A$tro$ all have bigger payroll than the Yanks, not to mention the Met$.
Is that correct? I've got the Yankee$ at #6, with the A$tro$ at #9 and the Met$ at #12.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/
First time in a long time they haven't been top 3.
Quote from: jsglow on October 04, 2018, 11:28:40 AM
Woodruff with the start. Crew goes with 11 pitchers, leaving most of the lefty guys in the clubhouse. Santana and Broxton get the nod. I gotta give Couns and Stearns credit. They studied the analytics because all 25 will play key roles these next handful. Expect hockey line changes if they advance.
My only fear with this approach (which I support) is CC overmanaging. Things are just different in the NLDS and I hope we can let some guys pitch through some spots and not burn up the pen by throwing a lot of arms out there.
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on October 02, 2018, 11:36:02 AM
Times and Networks
https://twitter.com/MLB_PR/status/1047154124914081792
Viewing question - if viewing through youtube.tv, are the games blacked out in home markets? E.g. if i live in MKE and am planning to watch on youtube.tv, is the Brewers game blacked out because I don't have the local fox sports affiliate?
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 04, 2018, 02:06:59 PM
Viewing question - if viewing through youtube.tv, are the games blacked out in home markets? E.g. if i live in MKE and am planning to watch on youtube.tv, is the Brewers game blacked out because I don't have the local fox sports affiliate?
Some programs, like sports events, aren't available in certain geographic locations. These restrictions are set by content owners and vary based on your location, the program you're watching, and more.
Not a definitive answer, but these blackouts are done to protect the local regional network.
I will be very surprised if you are able to view the game at home - you probably will need to hit any local bar to watch it.
Quote from: mu03eng on October 04, 2018, 12:46:47 PM
My only fear with this approach (which I support) is CC overmanaging. Things are just different in the NLDS and I hope we can let some guys pitch through some spots and not burn up the pen by throwing a lot of arms out there.
True dat. But bullpenning sure worked in that key game in STL. I'm expecting that Couns has plans for each of these two home games that are situation specific (big lead, close, trailing). Every pitcher on the roster has been lights out lately. Does Freddy potentially pitch today? Helluva opportunity for the kid. Future sure looks bright with these young kids.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 04, 2018, 12:32:32 PM
The Red $ox, Cub$ and A$tro$ all have bigger payroll than the Yanks, not to mention the Met$.
OK. You're free to use the $ for them, too.
Don't be insulted by it. Decades ago, I was a yuuuge Yankee fan, and I bragged that my team's owner was willing to outbid all others for talent.
With the current excitement I have watched a few Brewers games recently on Fox or FS1. When the brewers are home in Milwaukee I admit to noticing the distraction of the brunette cleavage behind the plate in the first row. Is she an owners wife?
I know this is not a very PC post but geeez try a turtleneck, lady I am trying to watch a game
Quote from: houwarrior on October 04, 2018, 04:36:08 PM
With the current excitement I have watched a few Brewers games recently on Fox or FS1. When the brewers are home in Milwaukee I admit to noticing the distraction of the brunette cleavage behind the plate in the first row. Is she an owners wife?
I know this is not a very PC post but geeez try a turtleneck, lady I am trying to watch a game
Front Row Amy. She had 15 minutes of fame in 2011 I believe.
Why are teams still pitching to him...?
Quote from: wadesworld on October 04, 2018, 05:09:34 PM
Why are teams still pitching to him...?
Would you have unintentionally intentionally walked him and put two on?
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 04, 2018, 05:11:37 PM
Would you have unintentionally intentionally walked him and put two on?
If it's me, yes. The guy is unbelievable.
Generous strike zone today
Quote from: wadesworld on October 04, 2018, 05:14:04 PM
If it's me, yes. The guy is unbelievable.
Yep, take your chances with him on the road lately. I'm certainly not giving him anything at Miller Park. He's unconscious. He's like Griffey in his own video game right now
Arcia: better tagged than Baez. Discuss.
I'm wondering if an obstruction call should've been made on Desmond with the clear fake tag.
Also, not crazy about Braun's attitude there, especially when he blew a scoring chance in the first on a bone head play.
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 04, 2018, 06:15:33 PM
I'm wondering if an obstruction call should've been made on Desmond with the clear fake tag.
Also, not crazy about Braun's attitude there, especially when he blew a scoring chance in the first on a bone head play.
Obstruction is, by definition, obstructing the runner's path to the base. It might be bush-league (though I think it was just smart baseball) but it's not obstruction.
Only 3 Ks out of 4? Disappointing.
Big win for a 5 game series. Brewers going down 0-1 there would have been really tough.
Quote from: houwarrior on October 04, 2018, 04:36:08 PM
With the current excitement I have watched a few Brewers games recently on Fox or FS1. When the brewers are home in Milwaukee I admit to noticing the distraction of the brunette cleavage behind the plate in the first row. Is she an owners wife?
I know this is not a very PC post but geeez try a turtleneck, lady I am trying to watch a game
She keeps diligent score every game...whata fan😳
Quote from: cheebs09 on October 04, 2018, 08:23:58 PM
Big win for a 5 game series. Brewers going down 0-1 there would have been really tough.
Huge win, and perhaps more important to end that game in 10. The bullpen game worked brilliantly, and only Soria was unexpectedly used. This game goes to 11, 12 and it's a nightmare scenario that would permeate through the rest of the series
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 04, 2018, 02:06:59 PM
Viewing question - if viewing through youtube.tv, are the games blacked out in home markets? E.g. if i live in MKE and am planning to watch on youtube.tv, is the Brewers game blacked out because I don't have the local fox sports affiliate?
I was streaming the game on my phone for my colleagues during a meeting in the Dells last night, so you should be good with a national broadcast. That being said, I have MLB network on my cable package and can log in to watch remotely. Anyone know how to get the game for someone with a Roku on Sunday? Is it on the MLBTV app?
I figured it out. It's on MLBTV. Also looks like game 4 for is tentative for 8:30 Monday night and game 5, 3:30 Wednesday.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 03, 2018, 04:43:56 PM
Well, of course, but they will have to do without Addison for 40 games, unless he is able to appeal and get it reduced or....
or just go straight to rehab??
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24883798/chicago-cubs-shortstop-addison-russell-suspended-40-games-mlb
It is retroactive to Sept 21st is my understanding, the impact to next year will be about 30 games. I am not convinced he is back with the team and hope they find a way to get rid of him.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 04, 2018, 02:06:59 PM
Viewing question - if viewing through youtube.tv, are the games blacked out in home markets? E.g. if i live in MKE and am planning to watch on youtube.tv, is the Brewers game blacked out because I don't have the local fox sports affiliate?
No, youtube tv is considered cable so it would be exactly like using spectrum or direct tv.
Quote from: mu03eng on October 04, 2018, 12:46:47 PM
My only fear with this approach (which I support) is CC overmanaging. Things are just different in the NLDS and I hope we can let some guys pitch through some spots and not burn up the pen by throwing a lot of arms out there.
How are things different in the NLDS? Outside of extra rest days, which opens up more of your pitching staff, why would a manager change up the way he approaches in game decisions during the playoffs?
Quote from: #bansultan on October 05, 2018, 09:17:40 AM
How are things different in the NLDS? Outside of extra rest days, which opens up more of your pitching staff, why would a manager change up the way he approaches in game decisions during the playoffs?
Main difference is that in the postseason you don't sacrifice today for tomorrow, unless a game is hopelessy out of reach. You will use a guy who should probably rest, especially bullpen guys. Guys don't get days off. If you've got a clear number 1 catcher, he will catch all the games, whereas during the season you give him a day off every week. Otherwise, you manage to win the game like you always do.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 05, 2018, 09:21:26 AM
Main difference is that in the postseason you don't sacrifice today for tomorrow, unless a game is hopelessy out of reach. You will use a guy who should probably rest, especially bullpen guys. Guys don't get days off. If you've got a clear number 1 catcher, he will catch all the games, whereas during the season you give him a day off every week. Otherwise, you manage to win the game like you always do.
Thanks. Yeah I get what you are saying that everyone is available for every game. But other than that, I don't know why a manager would change their approach.
Saw on Deadspin that Moose's hit was the first off of Ottavino all year when he had gotten a batter in a 0-2 hole. 0-36 until that point.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 05, 2018, 09:25:53 AM
Saw on Deadspin that Moose's hit was the first off of Ottavino all year when he had gotten a batter in a 0-2 hole. 0-36 until that point.
I saw that and also heard that Moose was 0-32 or something on 0-2 counts this season. I'm thinking maybe one of those stats is correct and the other is not? But have no idea.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 05, 2018, 09:25:53 AM
Saw on Deadspin that Moose's hit was the first off of Ottavino all year when he had gotten a batter in a 0-2 hole. 0-36 until that point.
0-36 in the regular season, has given up two 0-2 hits now in the postseason.
Quote from: The Deane Team on October 05, 2018, 09:38:52 AM
0-36 in the regular season, has given up two 0-2 hits now in the postseason.
Ah. Thanks.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 05, 2018, 09:33:11 AM
I saw that and also heard that Moose was 0-32 or something on 0-2 counts this season. I'm thinking maybe one of those stats is correct and the other is not? But have no idea.
That would be cool if true.
So does Chacin try to go 6? Or do the Crew try to get 2-3 out of either Freddy or Guerra, both of whom have been very solid of late?
Quote from: jsglow on October 05, 2018, 09:44:46 AM
So does Chacin try to go 6? Or do the Crew try to get 2-3 out of either Freddy or Guerra, both of whom have been very solid of late?
All hands on deck from the bullpen today with the off day tomorrow.
Quote from: jsglow on October 05, 2018, 09:44:46 AM
So does Chacin try to go 6? Or do the Crew try to get 2-3 out of either Freddy or Guerra, both of whom have been very solid of late?
My guess is that Chacin is only on a 50-60 pitch count, which may get you through Arenado twice if Chacin's stuff holds up. If there's any warning signs, I think he's done. All in all, it probably only gets you 3-4 IP max and then we see Freddy. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Hader get a lot of work today - I don't think we see much of him in Colorado.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 04, 2018, 06:00:06 PM
Arcia: better tagged than Baez. Discuss.
Heresy!!!
Next thing you'll be trying to say is that Yelich is a better slider!!!
C'mon man, perfection can't possibly be improved upon!
Quote from: wadesworld on October 05, 2018, 09:33:11 AM
I saw that and also heard that Moose was 0-32 or something on 0-2 counts this season. I'm thinking maybe one of those stats is correct and the other is not? But have no idea.
For the 2018 season:
Moose went into an 0-2 count 99 times. Of those 99, 53 of those PA's were decided on the 0-2 count, in which he was batting .192 with 10 hits and 26 strikeouts and an sOPS+ of 156 (which I think means his OPS in an 0-2 count was 1.56x better than the league OPS in an 0-2 count).
He was also batting .346 with two outs and RISP overall but only .151 in "late & close" games.
Moral of Story: Baseball stats are fun.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=moustmi01&year=2018&t=b
Quote from: Benny B on October 05, 2018, 10:41:34 AM
For the 2018 season:
Moose went into an 0-2 count 99 times. Of those 99, 53 of those PA's were decided on the 0-2 count, in which he was batting .192 with 10 hits and 26 strikeouts and an sOPS+ of 156 (which I think means his OPS in an 0-2 count was 1.56x better than the league OPS in an 0-2 count).
He was also batting .346 with two outs and RISP overall but only .151 in "late & close" games.
Moral of Story: Baseball stats are fun.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=moustmi01&year=2018&t=b
Got it, thank you. I kind of thought it seemed a bit low for Moose to have only 32 at bats in the entire season end after an 0-2 count, and thought that since the "this guy was oh for thirty-something in this situation" for both pitcher and batter was a little bit too ironic, so thought maybe one of the stats was correct while others were looking at something wrong.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Freddy at some point if Chacin struggles or is pulled early. Although, I think he might be the starter in Denver Sunday if he doesn't pitch today. He's had some good success against Colorado.
I think Chacin can go 6 if he's pitching well. I wouldn't cap his pitch count at anything less than 90, but if he's struggling early he'll have a short leash. Didn't he start a game in the last month and a half against the Cubs on short rest? He's only 1 day short from regular rest, so I think he'd be fine going 6 if he's rolling.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 05, 2018, 09:17:40 AM
How are things different in the NLDS? Outside of extra rest days, which opens up more of your pitching staff, why would a manager change up the way he approaches in game decisions during the playoffs?
Extra rest days mean you can throw more pitchers in any given game even if you shouldn't/don't have to. Gives you more opportunity to pitch match-ups which can mean overthinking.
Having said that, based on game 1, I think CC is going to be just fine. He could not have managed that game any better.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 05, 2018, 11:17:30 AM
I think Chacin can go 6 if he's pitching well. I wouldn't cap his pitch count at anything less than 90, but if he's struggling early he'll have a short leash. Didn't he start a game in the last month and a half against the Cubs on short rest? He's only 1 day short from regular rest, so I think he'd be fine going 6 if he's rolling.
Quoting myself. I believe they moved Chacin up to face the Cardinals after they had beaten the Cubs, but I believe they had an off day in there and he pitched on 4 days rest and not 3.
Quote from: mu03eng on October 05, 2018, 11:23:11 AM
Extra rest days mean you can throw more pitchers in any given game even if you shouldn't/don't have to. Gives you more opportunity to pitch match-ups which can mean overthinking.
Having said that, based on game 1, I think CC is going to be just fine. He could not have managed that game any better.
Pitching wise? Or generally? I'm surprised he burned Santana in the third and didn't save him for a later (and presumably more important) at bat.
Quote from: copious1218 on October 05, 2018, 12:02:00 PM
Pitching wise? Or generally? I'm surprised he burned Santana in the third and didn't save him for a later (and presumably more important) at bat.
I also felt that was a terrible time to pinch hit Broxton since the guy whiffs so much.
Quote from: copious1218 on October 05, 2018, 12:02:00 PM
Pitching wise? Or generally? I'm surprised he burned Santana in the third and didn't save him for a later (and presumably more important) at bat.
Disagree. They added extra hitters to the playoff roster so they could do exactly that.
Quote from: Jockey on October 05, 2018, 02:18:32 PM
Disagree. They added extra hitters to the playoff roster so they could do exactly that.
Not sure what you disagree with because all I said is I was surprised he burned him that early (you disagree with my surprise?). If you're saying using Santana in the 3rd was the right choice, fair enough. I just wouldn't have done it that early (and I'm clearly a baseball manager).
Quote from: copious1218 on October 05, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
Not sure what you disagree with because all I said is I was surprised he burned him that early (you disagree with my surprise?). If you're saying using Santana in the 3rd was the right choice, fair enough. I just wouldn't have done it that early (and I'm clearly a baseball manager).
My wording wasn't the best but I was fine using him there. Doesn't mean I am right.
Quote from: Jockey on October 05, 2018, 03:32:42 PM
My wording wasn't the best but I was fine using him there. Doesn't mean I am right.
Got it.
Quote from: copious1218 on October 05, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
Not sure what you disagree with because all I said is I was surprised he burned him that early (you disagree with my surprise?). If you're saying using Santana in the 3rd was the right choice, fair enough. I just wouldn't have done it that early (and I'm clearly a baseball manager).
I though burning Santana in the 3rd was odd too. Rather see him PH later in the game. He's your #1 PH, save him for when you need him most.
I hope I'm wrong (won't take long to find out) but I think CC regrets not pinch hitting for Chacin there.
Cain is really struggling. Seems to be off balance on every swing.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 05, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
I hope I'm wrong (won't take long to find out) but I think CC regrets not pinch hitting for Chacin there.
Okay, I was wrong. You trade two more scoreless IP for the out there.
Braun has gone after that same out-of-the-zone pitch in all three at-bats.
So many bad swings early in the count.
Soria with some absolutely MONSTER outings lately.
Oberg and Soria with some serious pitching there in the 7th.
Moose
Kratzzzzzz
9 to go!
Wooooooooooooo
Go Crew!
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 05, 2018, 07:02:20 PM
9 to go!
I like your thinking. The Crew has won 10 straight in crunch time. 9 more in total? Why not?
Seriously, this team is absolutely capable of winning a world championship.
Pitching you say? In 3 playoff games they have an ERA under 1.0. And that's against two top hitting teams.
Quote from: jsglow on October 05, 2018, 09:23:18 PM
I like your thinking. The Crew has won 10 straight in crunch time. 9 more in total? Why not?
Seriously, this team is absolutely capable of winning a world championship.
Pitching you say? In 3 playoff games they have an ERA under 1.0. And that's against two top hitting teams.
But they need a starter.
Quote from: jsglow on October 05, 2018, 09:23:18 PM
I like your thinking. The Crew has won 10 straight in crunch time. 9 more in total? Why not?
Seriously, this team is absolutely capable of winning a world championship.
Pitching you say? In 3 playoff games they have an ERA under 1.0. And that's against two top hitting teams.
A 2-0 lead in the playoffs should allow for some hyperbole...that is why "fan" is short for fanatic....but are you really punching the "we win the WS",...and "two TOP hitting teams" buttons?
The Cubs had many run drought games ...the Rockies slumped to a .100 something average and havent put more than 2 across in the last 4 games. I saw all 3 Brew crew games....Both opponent teams had many players who showed playoff nerves, expanding their zones and reaching for pitches. Poor hitting approaches.
The LCS and WS are much greater challenges. I too would enjoy seeing the Brewers advance, but IMHO they are not better than the homefield Astros, Red Sox or Yankees.
Brewers are unstoppable right now. The Rockies never scared me but the Dodgers do. I could see that series going to 7 games if both teams are able to close out their series which it looks like they will. Beyond that Houston or Boston will be quite the challenge. They would be big underdogs for sure.
I'm all for ebthusiasm...I mean, 10 straight wins that were essentially must wins. But 3 of those were against the Tigers. Good teams find a way to win those as the Crew did, and as they did with two imperfect offensive games against Colorado. But they're going to need to start converting RISP if they're going to have any chance with the Dodgers
I don't get why Boston and Houston are being viewed as some behemoth. Because they won 100 games?
Give me a break... if the NL Central had teams like the Orioles and Bleu Ehs?, the Cubs and Brewers would have won 100 games, too.
Brewers have a 13-7 record against AL... granted that's mostly against the weakened AL East, but Boston's 16-4 did come against the almost-as-weak NL East.
Frankly, I don't see anything of a chasm between the Brewers or Dodgers and the Astros or Red Sox. If anything, houw might be right in qualifying the better AL team(s) as being the home team.
I think the Dodgers win the WS.
The Dodgers have always been the team that scares me the most in the NL. Even when the Cubs were still alive.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 06, 2018, 01:27:35 PM
I think the Dodgers win the WS.
.611 winning % with Justin Turner.
And I still think the Brewers would be much better off with another decent starter. They have a great pen, but eventually they'll need starters to give them 5 or more innings. Even with more days off built in, I think they will wear down.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 06, 2018, 02:35:42 PM
.611 winning % with Justin Turner.
And I still think the Brewers would be much better off with another decent starter. They have a great pen, but eventually they'll need starters to give them 5 or more innings. Even with more days off built in, I think they will wear down.
I think you are correct. I was hoping that Gonzales would provide that.
Want to see something horrifying?
Scroll to the bottom-ish, find opponents and check out Price's splits vs. the Yanks this year.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=priceda01&year=2018&t=p
Some highlights if you are too lazy
The Yanks are OPSing 1.162 off Price, Trout led the MLB with an OPS of 1.088. So every hitter is on the Yanks is essentially hitting better than Trout.
20 Runs, on 21 hits, 9 home runs in 15.2 IP (does not include yesterday).
A WHIP of over 1.9
9BB / 11 K.
Yikes.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 07, 2018, 09:09:51 AM
Want to see something horrifying?
Scroll to the bottom-ish, find opponents and check out Price's splits vs. the Yanks this year.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=priceda01&year=2018&t=p
Some highlights if you are too lazy
The Yanks are OPSing 1.162 off Price, Trout led the MLB with an OPS of 1.088. So every hitter is on the Yanks is essentially hitting better than Trout.
20 Runs, on 21 hits, 9 home runs in 15.2 IP (does not include yesterday).
A WHIP of over 1.9
9BB / 11 K.
Yikes.
It's only "horrifying" if one is a Yankee hater.
What it should be is "educational" for Cora, who will have the choice if there is a Game 5 to skip Price.
Some managers are quite stubborn with this kind of stuff, though. For all their belief in stats, sometimes they refuse to give in. We'll see if Cora goes with somebody else or if he says, "Dammit, Price is due, and he's our man!"
Quote from: MU82 on October 07, 2018, 10:36:43 AM
It's only "horrifying" if one is a Yankee hater.
What it should be is "educational" for Cora, who will have the choice if there is a Game 5 to skip Price.
Some managers are quite stubborn with this kind of stuff, though. For all their belief in stats, sometimes they refuse to give in. We'll see if Cora goes with somebody else or if he says, "Dammit, Price is due, and he's our man!"
Maybe horrifying is the wrong word. Grotesque?
Bob Costas and Jim Kaat? Have I returned to 1994 or something?
Cain still looks way off his game. Wonder if that injury is still lingering because I don't remember any solid contact for him this series.
Good to see Brewers actually make contact with a guy at 3rd, <2 outs. Close it out today, boys
Quote from: #bansultan on October 07, 2018, 03:34:28 PM
Bob Costas and Jim Kaat? Have I returned to 1994 or something?
*Looks at MLB Network graphics* yes.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 07, 2018, 03:34:28 PM
Bob Costas and Jim Kaat? Have I returned to 1994 or something?
Both called the HR for Aguilara.
Quote from: Jockey on October 07, 2018, 04:36:37 PM
Both called the HR for Aguilara.
So did Counsell.
Cain finally getting the monkey off his back. Hopefully this can get him going. Need to get some baserunners for Yelich.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 07, 2018, 04:24:21 PM
*Looks at MLB Network graphics* yes.
Lol. Yeah. I'd ive had enough of their fun facts too. "Travis Shaw is one of the tallest second basemen ever!"
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 07, 2018, 04:52:30 PM
So did Counsell.
Cain finally getting the monkey off his back. Hopefully this can get him going. Need to get some baserunners for Yelich.
No, I meant they called him Aguilara instead of Aguilar.
Back to back runs on a balk and a wild pitch? Ooof
Quote from: Jockey on October 07, 2018, 05:26:39 PM
No, I meant they called him Aguilara instead of Aguilar.
Ahh, missed that. Counsell did all the HR though.
That should do it!
The two skinniest guys on the field with monster shots. Coors Field and Rockies exposed.
Crew will have their work cut out for them against an insanely deep Dodgers team. Just keep winning please.
Buehler? Buehler? Anybody.....
Quote from: wadesworld on September 27, 2018, 06:08:26 PM
I would want nothing to do with the Brewers after the 1 game WC if I were any other team. Stacked with veteran hitters and the best bullpen in baseball.
Yup.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on September 27, 2018, 09:28:36 PM
I'd want the unproven zero experience brewers over the cubs, cards, dodgers or rockies honestly.
Oops.
We're a wagon right now.
Dodgers scare me. Go Braves.
Well, that is one way to make sure your bullpen gets the rest it needs. Just sweep. Good strategy.
That seemed like a terrible approach by Muncy in that 9th inning AB. That 3-1 pitch was a foot outside, Vizcaino was on the ropes and he completely bailed him out. And after great ABs from Pedersen and Turner.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/10/07/mlb-network-broadcast-scoreboard-struggle-brewers-names-facts/1562311002/
As I mentioned earlier, Costas and Kaat were brutal, There is no excuse for this type of utter incompetence - especially from Costas. Just part of the lack of respect the Brewers get (although, MLB Network, in general, has been the one place they have been respected).
ESPN has been especially bad. All year, unless playing the Cubs, Cards, or Dodgers, you had to click on more scores on mobile devices to see the outcome of Brewer's games. They were never listed on the 1st page of scores.
I hope this is the last Brewers game on MLB, because I don't get it. Had to watch highlights later.
Best thing to happen for Brewers would be Braves beating Dodgers.
Second-best thing would be for Braves to at least win Game 4 and force Dodgers to have to use Kershaw in Game 5.
Go Brewers!
Quote from: MU82 on October 07, 2018, 10:36:43 AM
It's only "horrifying" if one is a Yankee hater.
What it should be is "educational" for Cora, who will have the choice if there is a Game 5 to skip Price.
Some managers are quite stubborn with this kind of stuff, though. For all their belief in stats, sometimes they refuse to give in. We'll see if Cora goes with somebody else or if he says, "Dammit, Price is due, and he's our man!"
I am a Red Sox fan, and I honestly thought that Price should not have been on the roster against the Yankees, let alone start game 2. His team had lost all 9 games he previously started in the postseason and the Yankees own him. Other than keeping Price happy, what is the rationale for starting him in a playoff game against the Yankees? Absolutely nobody was surprised that he did not get through the second inning, including, I think if he was honest, Alex Cora.
Quote from: Jockey on October 07, 2018, 11:13:08 PM
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/10/07/mlb-network-broadcast-scoreboard-struggle-brewers-names-facts/1562311002/
As I mentioned earlier, Costas and Kaat were brutal, There is no excuse for this type of utter incompetence - especially from Costas. Just part of the lack of respect the Brewers get (although, MLB Network, in general, has been the one place they have been respected).
ESPN has been especially bad. All year, unless playing the Cubs, Cards, or Dodgers, you had to click on more scores on mobile devices to see the outcome of Brewer's games. They were never listed on the 1st page of scores.
I don't think it's a lack of respect thing. It's a "Bob Costas is overrated and Jim Kaat is a barely warm corpse" thing. Costas is a fine host, but he just hasn't done enough play-by-play lately to make it work.
My favorite part was when Kaat said something like "as you know, in the 1950 World Series..." No Jim. I actually don't know a damn thing about the World Series that took place 68 years ago.
Oh and them talking about the shift like it's something revolutionary, but you could almost hear the derision in Costas' voice.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 08, 2018, 07:32:54 AM
I am a Red Sox fan, and I honestly thought that Price should not have been on the roster against the Yankees, let alone start game 2. His team had lost all 9 games he previously started in the postseason and the Yankees own him. Other than keeping Price happy, what is the rationale for starting him in a playoff game against the Yankees? Absolutely nobody was surprised that he did not get through the second inning, including, I think if he was honest, Alex Cora.
Lots of managers and coaches are very stubborn. Remember Lovie's insistence upon playing Rex Grossman, no matter how bad the QB was (and he was). Lovie even denied that many great coaches had made QB changes over the years to spark a team, including Shula, Landry, Noll, Parcells and many others far with far more knowledge than him. Conversely, some others managers/coaches have very quick "trigger fingers." But it's always interesting to see a seemingly intelligent manager like Cora say, "Screw history and data, I'm sticking with 'my man.'"
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 08, 2018, 07:32:54 AM
I am a Red Sox fan, and I honestly thought that Price should not have been on the roster against the Yankees, let alone start game 2. His team had lost all 9 games he previously started in the postseason and the Yankees own him. Other than keeping Price happy, what is the rationale for starting him in a playoff game against the Yankees? Absolutely nobody was surprised that he did not get through the second inning, including, I think if he was honest, Alex Cora.
Curious for your take - how would you set up the pitching staff for this series if you were Cora? BoSox's bullpen problems have been well documented, so he's got less flexibility than most. Assuming you pitch Sale on short rest until his arm falls off, that's 1 & 4. Eovaldi's velocity probably makes him the right call for game 2, but can you bring him back on short rest given his health history? I know Price has been brutal in the playoffs, but is that enough to completely shelve him in favor of Porcello?
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 08, 2018, 09:19:02 AM
Curious for your take - how would you set up the pitching staff for this series if you were Cora? BoSox's bullpen problems have been well documented, so he's got less flexibility than most. Assuming you pitch Sale on short rest until his arm falls off, that's 1 & 4. Eovaldi's velocity probably makes him the right call for game 2, but can you bring him back on short rest given his health history? I know Price has been brutal in the playoffs, but is that enough to completely shelve him in favor of Porcello?
I would have started Eovaldi, Sale, Porcello, Wright, Eovaldi/Sale. As it turned out, Wright was hurt, so that threw that idea out the window. With Wright out, I would have used Hector Velazquez as the game 4 starter and make it a bullpen game (Velazquez isn't even on the roster.) There weren't great options, but just giving away a game with Price is a bad idea. He had to start Price in game 2 because he is even more atrocious against the Yankees in NY, as he works the outside corner and the Yankees just hit those lazy fly balls that are easy outs in Fenway but are 10 rows deep in Yankee Stadium.
I thought going in they would lose this series in 4, and I still think that. The Yankees are a bad matchup for the Red Sox because they take away Price and Rodriguez, who are two of their better starters. And the weird thing is, they don't hit Eovaldi, who otherwise isn't that good so you don't have a ton of faith in him, either.
Red Sox are an odd 108 win team. They are not a complete team. They have big holes, as they were in the very bottom 2 or 3 in MLB in WAR at three positions (2B, 3B, C). The bottom 3rd of their order is basically a free inning for the other team. I know Cora is a candidate for manager of the year, but basically he took a team that was always going to win a lot of games and he won a lot of games and then some, but then he took his foot of the gas in September so they headed into the playoffs not clicking on all cylinders for the first time all year and he had already over-used his best bullpen guys so they are not what they were earlier. I did not like John Farrell much as the manager, but the one thing he could do was manage the bullpen. I had much more confidence in past Red Sox teams with much worse records heading into the playoffs than I do with this one.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 08, 2018, 10:15:32 AM
I would have started Eovaldi, Sale, Porcello, Wright, Eovaldi/Sale. As it turned out, Wright was hurt, so that threw that idea out the window. With Wright out, I would have used Hector Velazquez as the game 4 starter and make it a bullpen game (Velazquez isn't even on the roster.) There weren't great options, but just giving away a game with Price is a bad idea. He had to start Price in game 2 because he is even more atrocious against the Yankees in NY, as he works the outside corner and the Yankees just hit those lazy fly balls that are easy outs in Fenway but are 10 rows deep in Yankee Stadium.
I thought going in they would lose this series in 4, and I still think that. The Yankees are a bad matchup for the Red Sox because they take away Price and Rodriguez, who are two of their better starters. And the weird thing is, they don't hit Eovaldi, who otherwise isn't that good so you don't have a ton of faith in him, either.
Red Sox are an odd 108 win team. They are not a complete team. They have big holes, as they were in the very bottom 2 or 3 in MLB in WAR at three positions (2B, 3B, C). The bottom 3rd of their order is basically a free inning for the other team. I know Cora is a candidate for manager of the year, but basically he took a team that was always going to win a lot of games and he won a lot of games and then some, but then he took his foot of the gas in September so they headed into the playoffs not clicking on all cylinders for the first time all year and he had already over-used his best bullpen guys so they are not what they were earlier. I did not like John Farrell much as the manager, but the one thing he could do was manage the bullpen. I had much more confidence in past Red Sox teams with much worse records heading into the playoffs than I do with this one.
Interesting take, CTW.
Quote from: #bansultan on October 08, 2018, 08:01:09 AM
I don't think it's a lack of respect thing. It's a "Bob Costas is overrated and Jim Kaat is a barely warm corpse" thing. Costas is a fine host, but he just hasn't done enough play-by-play lately to make it work.
My favorite part was when Kaat said something like "as you know, in the 1950 World Series..." No Jim. I actually don't know a damn thing about the World Series that took place 68 years ago.
Oh and them talking about the shift like it's something revolutionary, but you could almost hear the derision in Costas' voice.
I used to really like Costas back in the day, but it is clear he's completely lost his fastball. It was like they told him he was going on the air the night before and the entirety of his research was listening to Uke tell stories.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 20, 2018, 05:30:24 PM
Is there a professional sport that doesn't allowed players traded midseason to go to the playoffs?
I forgot to get back on this. NFL trading deadline for postseason is after week 8, which is halfway through the season (or less as some teams will only have played 7 games at that time. The current MLB deadline would be the equivalent of letting NFL teams trade players after week 14 for postseason play (3 games to go) and let them play in the postseason. Don't you think the NFL playoffs would be hugely different if that were the case?
The NBA trade deadline is after about 50-54 games. The NBA equivalent of the MLB deadline would be after about 68 games (14 to go).
If they set the postseason deadline at July 31 in MLB, it would be the rough equivalent to the NBA and still much later than the NFL. I just don't see why you should let a guy who has been on another team for the first 82% of the season play for you in the postseason.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 08, 2018, 12:23:31 PM
I forgot to get back on this. NFL trading deadline for postseason is after week 8, which is halfway through the season (or less as some teams will only have played 7 games at that time. The current MLB deadline would be the equivalent of letting NFL teams trade players after week 14 for postseason play (3 games to go) and let them play in the postseason. Don't you think the NFL playoffs would be hugely different if that were the case?
The NBA trade deadline is after about 50-54 games. The NBA equivalent of the MLB deadline would be after about 68 games (14 to go).
If they set the postseason deadline at July 31 in MLB, it would be the rough equivalent to the NBA and still much later than the NFL. I just don't see why you should let a guy who has been on another team for the first 82% of the season play for you in the postseason.
Gotcha. So your issue isn't that players traded midseason get to go to the playoffs, it's how late the trade deadline is. I personally have no issue with the current deadline but also wouldn't be upset if the deadline was moved earlier. How I was reading your original post was that only players who were in your organization for opening day should be eligible for the postseason which doesn't make sense to me.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 08, 2018, 12:23:31 PM
I forgot to get back on this. NFL trading deadline for postseason is after week 8, which is halfway through the season (or less as some teams will only have played 7 games at that time. The current MLB deadline would be the equivalent of letting NFL teams trade players after week 14 for postseason play (3 games to go) and let them play in the postseason. Don't you think the NFL playoffs would be hugely different if that were the case?
The NBA trade deadline is after about 50-54 games. The NBA equivalent of the MLB deadline would be after about 68 games (14 to go).
If they set the postseason deadline at July 31 in MLB, it would be the rough equivalent to the NBA and still much later than the NFL. I just don't see why you should let a guy who has been on another team for the first 82% of the season play for you in the postseason.
The Non Waiver trade deadline in MLB is actually July 31 ....so you are happy , yes? Guess not....
What you apparently complain of is waiver wire deals made from August 1 to
August 31 (last day that a traded player may also can qualify for the post season roster).....BUT ....waiver wire deals during this 30 day window are NOT sure things ....far from it.
For instance, if Team A wants to trade a player to Team B after the July 31 nonwaiver deadline, that player must first be offered to each team in reverse order of the standings. The claiming order begins with Team A's league, worst record to best, and then continues through the opposite league, worst record to best. In other words, the team with the best record in Team A's league has dibs before the worst team in the other league. These are called "trade assignment waivers."
So long as all the clubs in front of Team B pass on the player, that player can be traded without interference. If, however, a team claims the player before he falls to Team B, then Team A — the team who wanted to trade him in the first place — has a decision to make. They can pull the player off waivers and not trade him (that's why this particular waiver flavor is referred to as being "revocable") or they can work out a deal with the team that claimed him.
If no deal can be worked out with the new team, then Team A can, in essence, pull off a "force trade." That means the team that claimed the player must assume his contract and kick in $20,000 to his original team (that would be Team A). This has happened often, including August 2010 when San Francisco claimed outfielder Cody Ross, the eventual NLCS MVP, from cost-cutting Florida.
A recent well known waiver wire trade that actually went through was Justin Verlander. Houston held their breath...but all the other teams failed to claim him and assume his big salary (Their thinking in not claiming him?....too old too much money and Detroit wont make our waiver claim deal unless we match the houston trade package..ie Detroit will just pull him back off waivers...so ok we dont waiver claim). Verlander cleared waivers by the other 28 teams just minutes before the Aug 31 deadline and the Astros pulled off a very rare waiver wire clearing trade in August. Verlander trade was an outlier...someone else should have claimed him....but didnt.
This 30 day waiver trade window is the category of which you complain ....but rarely are August trades this key or high profile. Because August waiver trades are used to clean up, release 40 men roster baggage, and dump salary ....this period will stay as is. And actually rarely are August trades made for key playoff roster additions...again Verlander being an exception
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 08, 2018, 10:15:32 AM
I would have started Eovaldi, Sale, Porcello, Wright, Eovaldi/Sale. As it turned out, Wright was hurt, so that threw that idea out the window. With Wright out, I would have used Hector Velazquez as the game 4 starter and make it a bullpen game (Velazquez isn't even on the roster.) There weren't great options, but just giving away a game with Price is a bad idea. He had to start Price in game 2 because he is even more atrocious against the Yankees in NY, as he works the outside corner and the Yankees just hit those lazy fly balls that are easy outs in Fenway but are 10 rows deep in Yankee Stadium.
I thought going in they would lose this series in 4, and I still think that. The Yankees are a bad matchup for the Red Sox because they take away Price and Rodriguez, who are two of their better starters. And the weird thing is, they don't hit Eovaldi, who otherwise isn't that good so you don't have a ton of faith in him, either.
Red Sox are an odd 108 win team. They are not a complete team. They have big holes, as they were in the very bottom 2 or 3 in MLB in WAR at three positions (2B, 3B, C). The bottom 3rd of their order is basically a free inning for the other team. I know Cora is a candidate for manager of the year, but basically he took a team that was always going to win a lot of games and he won a lot of games and then some, but then he took his foot of the gas in September so they headed into the playoffs not clicking on all cylinders for the first time all year and he had already over-used his best bullpen guys so they are not what they were earlier. I did not like John Farrell much as the manager, but the one thing he could do was manage the bullpen. I had much more confidence in past Red Sox teams with much worse records heading into the playoffs than I do with this one.
As a Yankee fan I was surprised Price pitched second because the Yanks always pounded him.
Sale is a different story. I don't think the Yanks ever hit him so the formula is to up his pitch count and then pound the underwhelming Red Sox bullpen.
Quote from: houwarrior on October 08, 2018, 01:58:18 PM
The Non Waiver trade deadline in MLB is actually July 31 ....so you are happy , yes? Guess not....
What you apparently complain of is waiver wire deals made from August 1 to August 31 (last day that a traded player may also can qualify for the post season roster).....BUT ....waiver wire deals during this 30 day window are NOT sure things ....far from it.
For instance, if Team A wants to trade a player to Team B after the July 31 nonwaiver deadline, that player must first be offered to each team in reverse order of the standings. The claiming order begins with Team A's league, worst record to best, and then continues through the opposite league, worst record to best. In other words, the team with the best record in Team A's league has dibs before the worst team in the other league. These are called "trade assignment waivers."
So long as all the clubs in front of Team B pass on the player, that player can be traded without interference. If, however, a team claims the player before he falls to Team B, then Team A — the team who wanted to trade him in the first place — has a decision to make. They can pull the player off waivers and not trade him (that's why this particular waiver flavor is referred to as being "revocable") or they can work out a deal with the team that claimed him.
If no deal can be worked out with the new team, then Team A can, in essence, pull off a "force trade." That means the team that claimed the player must assume his contract and kick in $20,000 to his original team (that would be Team A). This has happened often, including August 2010 when San Francisco claimed outfielder Cody Ross, the eventual NLCS MVP, from cost-cutting Florida.
A recent well known waiver wire trade that actually went through was Justin Verlander. Houston held their breath...but all the other teams failed to claim him and assume his big salary (Their thinking in not claiming him?....too old too much money and Detroit wont make our waiver claim deal unless we match the houston trade package..ie Detroit will just pull him back off waivers...so ok we dont waiver claim). Verlander cleared waivers by the other 28 teams just minutes before the Aug 31 deadline and the Astros pulled off a very rare waiver wire clearing trade in August. Verlander trade was an outlier...someone else should have claimed him....but didnt.
This 30 day waiver trade window is the category of which you complain ....but rarely are August trades this key or high profile. Because August waiver trades are used to clean up, release 40 men roster baggage, and dump salary ....this period will stay as is. And actually rarely are August trades made for key playoff roster additions...again Verlander being an exception
Not rare at all. Justin Verlander was acquired on Aug 31 last year for the Astros and pitched the same number of starts and more innings for them in the postseason than he did in the regular season. To claim a player would require you to eat the salary should they accept the claim. This year the Indians got Josh Donaldson (who was injured, somehow breaking that rule) the same way on Aug 31. He is playing in the postseason for them after all of 60 plate appearances in the regular season. They should limit postseason play to players acquired by July 31.
Quote from: houwarrior on October 08, 2018, 01:58:18 PM
The Non Waiver trade deadline in MLB is actually July 31 ....so you are happy , yes? Guess not....
What you apparently complain of is waiver wire deals made from August 1 to August 31 (last day that a traded player may also can qualify for the post season roster).....BUT ....waiver wire deals during this 30 day window are NOT sure things ....far from it.
For instance, if Team A wants to trade a player to Team B after the July 31 nonwaiver deadline, that player must first be offered to each team in reverse order of the standings. The claiming order begins with Team A's league, worst record to best, and then continues through the opposite league, worst record to best. In other words, the team with the best record in Team A's league has dibs before the worst team in the other league. These are called "trade assignment waivers."
So long as all the clubs in front of Team B pass on the player, that player can be traded without interference. If, however, a team claims the player before he falls to Team B, then Team A — the team who wanted to trade him in the first place — has a decision to make. They can pull the player off waivers and not trade him (that's why this particular waiver flavor is referred to as being "revocable") or they can work out a deal with the team that claimed him.
If no deal can be worked out with the new team, then Team A can, in essence, pull off a "force trade." That means the team that claimed the player must assume his contract and kick in $20,000 to his original team (that would be Team A). This has happened often, including August 2010 when San Francisco claimed outfielder Cody Ross, the eventual NLCS MVP, from cost-cutting Florida.
A recent well known waiver wire trade that actually went through was Justin Verlander. Houston held their breath...but all the other teams failed to claim him and assume his big salary (Their thinking in not claiming him?....too old too much money and Detroit wont make our waiver claim deal unless we match the houston trade package..ie Detroit will just pull him back off waivers...so ok we dont waiver claim). Verlander cleared waivers by the other 28 teams just minutes before the Aug 31 deadline and the Astros pulled off a very rare waiver wire clearing trade in August. Verlander trade was an outlier...someone else should have claimed him....but didnt.
This 30 day waiver trade window is the category of which you complain ....but rarely are August trades this key or high profile. Because August waiver trades are used to clean up, release 40 men roster baggage, and dump salary ....this period will stay as is. And actually rarely are August trades made for key playoff roster additions...again Verlander being an exception
Yankees picked up Andrew McCutchen this season in late August. He's proved a valuable addition.
Cubs picked up Murphy from the Nats too.
Crew got Gio as well. Not an ace by any means (at least not anymore) but certainly helped with the playoff push.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 08, 2018, 04:32:41 PM
Crew got Gio as well. Not an ace by any means (at least not anymore) but certainly helped with the playoff push.
And Curtis Granderson.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 08, 2018, 02:37:06 PM
Not rare at all. Justin Verlander was acquired on Aug 31 last year for the Astros and pitched the same number of starts and more innings for them in the postseason than he did in the regular season. To claim a player would require you to eat the salary should they accept the claim. This year the Indians got Josh Donaldson (who was injured, somehow breaking that rule) the same way on Aug 31. He is playing in the postseason for them after all of 60 plate appearances in the regular season. They should limit postseason play to players acquired by July 31.
You make my point well . Josh Donaldson is a more typical August move. Not a even close to being a difference maker like Verlander...Rather,....He is an aging highly paid star heading to free agency. Not attractive enough for a straight up trade during the primary trading period ...he cleared waivers to move to Cleveland. (being injured made it kind of odd) Jays at least get something back and a few months of salary relief. By clearing waivers...none of the other teams saw value in claiming him....
I Dont think Donaldson joining the Indians was anything more than a down the roster filling move. In their 3 ALDS games he was .091,...1 for 11 with 4ks and he got his sole hit during garbage time with the Astros already up 11-2 in the 9th in game 3. Not a playoff difference maker...heck he barely showed. He is down roster filler move most typical of August moves .
I really dont get why the August system upsets you . If you read the daily transactions during that time ....August ....very very few have anything to with the playoff rosters...this period is mainly for trying to dump the overpaid and streamlining the 40 man (dropping the marginals) before September call ups. No truly big moves are made without risking it blowing up through a waiver claim....ie whatever team you root for could have/should have claimed Verlander ...to help them in the playoffs. No one builds or vastly improves a playoff roster in August...except my Astros in2017 lol
If you have other August deals that irk you at playoff time remember your own favorite team had first waiver wire dibs on getting the same guy and they passed ...whose fault is that...
BYW....The team A trading the player does not "eat" or pay a penny of the salary on a waiver claim the acquiring team pays it and a $20k waiver fee...called a forced trade(see above)
Dodgers it is.
I'm pullin for The Brewers!!!!
Quote from: houwarrior on October 08, 2018, 05:30:13 PM
You make my point well . Josh Donaldson is a more typical August move. Not a even close to being a difference maker like Verlander...Rather,....He is an aging highly paid star heading to free agency. Not attractive enough for a straight up trade during the primary trading period ...he cleared waivers to move to Cleveland. (being injured made it kind of odd) Jays at least get something back and a few months of salary relief. By clearing waivers...none of the other teams saw value in claiming him....
I Dont think Donaldson joining the Indians was anything more than a down the roster filling move. In their 3 ALDS games he was .091,...1 for 11 with 4ks and he got his sole hit during garbage time with the Astros already up 11-2 in the 9th in game 3. Not a playoff difference maker...heck he barely showed. He is down roster filler move most typical of August moves .
I really dont get why the August system upsets you . If you read the daily transactions during that time ....August ....very very few have anything to with the playoff rosters...this period is mainly for trying to dump the overpaid and streamlining the 40 man (dropping the marginals) before September call ups. No truly big moves are made without risking it blowing up through a waiver claim....ie whatever team you root for could have/should have claimed Verlander ...to help them in the playoffs. No one builds or vastly improves a playoff roster in August...except my Astros in2017 lol
If you have other August deals that irk you at playoff time remember your own favorite team had first waiver wire dibs on getting the same guy and they passed ...whose fault is that...
BYW....The team A trading the player does not "eat" or pay a penny of the salary on a waiver claim the acquiring team pays it and a $20k waiver fee...called a forced trade(see above)
Donaldson immediately became their everyday third baseman and batted in the middle of their order. He was not procured to help them down the stretch, as the Indians won that crappy division in March. He was procured to be their regular third baseman in the playoffs. He turned out not to play well in the ALDS, but he was not roster filler. The other contenders complained to the league about MLB allowing the trade for an injured player, so they didn't consider him roster filler, either. Further, the current system punishes the teams ahead in the race, by not giving them a crack at a player before their pursuers. How does that make sense? For some reason, it seems that everybody passes waivers, now, too, I suspect for fear of eating the contract. Anyway, I'm not arguing that a team should have or shouldn't have made a claim. I'm arguing that a guy who was on somebody else's team for 5/6 of the season shouldn't have any rule that allows him to play for someone else come the playoffs.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 08, 2018, 02:35:26 PM
As a Yankee fan I was surprised Price pitched second because the Yanks always pounded him.
Sale is a different story. I don't think the Yanks ever hit him so the formula is to up his pitch count and then pound the underwhelming Red Sox bullpen.
I certainly didn't see last night coming. Figured 5 goods innings for Severino and on to the four closers the Yankees have in the bullpen. I was hoping Eovaldi could continue his spell over the Yanks and the Red Sox could eke out a 3-2 win or something like that.
Boone was a good manager for the Red Sox last night. After Pearce lined out to the warning track in dead center to end the third, I told my wife that they're going to regret that they didn't score more than 3 against Severino, since it was obvious he didn't have it. I was very surprised that Severino came out for the fourth and then I was more surprised that Boone left him in to load the bases with no outs and then I was even more surprised that he didn't use one of his closers to get out of that inning instead of his fifth starter who is not used to coming in in the middle of the inning. That was the game right there, you can't have your 10th best pitcher in there at that point. You use Betances or Robertson or Britton to get out of the inning and you bring in Lynn to start the fifth.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 09, 2018, 07:42:18 AM
I certainly didn't see last night coming. Figured 5 goods innings for Severino and on to the four closers the Yankees have in the bullpen. I was hoping Eovaldi could continue his spell over the Yanks and the Red Sox could eke out a 3-2 win or something like that.
Boone was a good manager for the Red Sox last night. After Pearce lined out to the warning track in dead center to end the third, I told my wife that they're going to regret that they didn't score more than 3 against Severino, since it was obvious he didn't have it. I was very surprised that Severino came out for the fourth and then I was more surprised that Boone left him in to load the bases with no outs and then I was even more surprised that he didn't use one of his closers to get out of that inning instead of his fifth starter who is not used to coming in in the middle of the inning. That was the game right there, you can't have your 10th best pitcher in there at that point. You use Betances or Robertson or Britton to get out of the inning and you bring in Lynn to start the fifth.
That's not the same Eovaldi who used to pitch with the Yankees. Who is that guy?
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 09, 2018, 07:27:05 AM
Donaldson immediately became their everyday third baseman and batted in the middle of their order. He was not procured to help them down the stretch, as the Indians won that crappy division in March. He was procured to be their regular third baseman in the playoffs. He turned out not to play well in the ALDS, but he was not roster filler. The other contenders complained to the league about MLB allowing the trade for an injured player, so they didn't consider him roster filler, either. Further, the current system punishes the teams ahead in the race, by not giving them a crack at a player before their pursuers. How does that make sense? For some reason, it seems that everybody passes waivers, now, too, I suspect for fear of eating the contract. Anyway, I'm not arguing that a team should have or shouldn't have made a claim. I'm arguing that a guy who was on somebody else's team for 5/6 of the season shouldn't have any rule that allows him to play for someone else come the playoffs.
Why do you bring up this one trade of Donaldson to change the rule for every one? As a Red Sox Fan is it because your club questioned the trade?....
Remember the August trades intended for playoff roster improvement are often very expensive to the acquiring club, and may not work out anyway (aka Donaldson trade).....another example....
1990 Red Sox headed into August and the playoffs ...had depth at third base with Wade Boggs, Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper....but they thought they could use pitching so they traded with my Astros....on August 31 1990 you traded us for Larry Anderson, a reliever, and gave us Jeff Bagwell...who became a recent Astros HOFer.....
The Red Sox were swept in the ALCS by the Oakland Athletics. Andersen earned the Game 1 loss after he came in and gave up a 1-0 lead in the seventh inning. He signed with the San Diego Padres that offseason. Ouch!
You are right ...the Red Sox should not have been able to have done this ...we need a rule preventing bone headed end of season trade moves like this one. lol
Quote from: houwarrior on October 08, 2018, 05:30:13 PM
I Dont think Donaldson joining the Indians was anything more than a down the roster filling move. In their 3 ALDS games he was .091,...1 for 11 with 4ks and he got his sole hit during garbage time with the Astros already up 11-2 in the 9th in game 3. Not a playoff difference maker...heck he barely showed. He is down roster filler move most typical of August moves .
Jose Ramirez must also be roster filler, as he was hitless.
NEWSFLASH!!!!! A starting pitcher just made it through 6 innings!!!!! Holy moly!!! Is that only the 2nd time this playoffs? Could be wrong there. Still noteworthy though.
This game is super fun right now.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 09, 2018, 10:27:14 PM
This game is super fun right now.
October baseball... even if you don't get the outcome you wanted, at least it's entertaining.
Quote from: Benny B on October 09, 2018, 10:40:48 PM
October baseball... even if you don't get the outcome you wanted, at least it's entertaining.
Yup. In my opinion baseball is by far the most boring of the 3 major professional sports throughout the regular season, but it's my favorite postseason.
Quote from: houwarrior on October 09, 2018, 03:00:59 PM
Why do you bring up this one trade of Donaldson to change the rule for every one? As a Red Sox Fan is it because your club questioned the trade?....
Remember the August trades intended for playoff roster improvement are often very expensive to the acquiring club, and may not work out anyway (aka Donaldson trade).....another example....
1990 Red Sox headed into August and the playoffs ...had depth at third base with Wade Boggs, Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper....but they thought they could use pitching so they traded with my Astros....on August 31 1990 you traded us for Larry Anderson, a reliever, and gave us Jeff Bagwell...who became a recent Astros HOFer.....
The Red Sox were swept in the ALCS by the Oakland Athletics. Andersen earned the Game 1 loss after he came in and gave up a 1-0 lead in the seventh inning. He signed with the San Diego Padres that offseason. Ouch!
You are right ...the Red Sox should not have been able to have done this ...we need a rule preventing bone headed end of season trade moves like this one. lol
I have zero issue with the Astros outsmarting everyone and getting Verlander. More power to them. I just don't like the rule regardless of who it benefits.
Trust me, I remember the Bagwell trade well. I still remember the day it happened Peter Gammons saying on ESPN that this will go down as one of the worst trades in history, like Brock for Broglio. It was actually worse than that. Bagwell is from CT, and back then the Connecticut Post had an agate type section every Sunday of how Connecticut kids were doing in the minors and majors. I remember reading that and seeing Bagwell and Vaughn's numbers and really looking forward to getting them to the majors. What really bothered me as it turned out is I'm sure the Astros would have been more than happy with Scott Cooper for Andersen, as that would have been a very good trade for them. Just a colossal blunder.
It was tough watching Bagwell play for the Astros and win all those World Series.
Quote from: houwarrior on October 09, 2018, 03:00:59 PM
Why do you bring up this one trade of Donaldson to change the rule for every one? As a Red Sox Fan is it because your club questioned the trade?....
Your team did, too. It was pretty blatant nonsense to get around the rules. The Jays took him off the DL, put him on a plane to Cleveland. Apparently he got hurt on the plane, as the Indians put him right back on the DL shortly after landing. The rule says you can't trade players on the DL, as I understand it.
BTW, good luck in the ALCS. Should be a fun series. You guys are hitting very well right now and that is a big worry. I think these are the two best teams in baseball this year, though whoever comes out of the NL will be tough, too.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 10, 2018, 08:11:24 AM
Your team did, too. It was pretty blatant nonsense to get around the rules. The Jays took him off the DL, put him on a plane to Cleveland. Apparently he got hurt on the plane, as the Indians put him right back on the DL shortly after landing. The rule says you can't trade players on the DL, as I understand it.
BTW, good luck in the ALCS. Should be a fun series. You guys are hitting very well right now and that is a big worry. I think these are the two best teams in baseball this year, though whoever comes out of the NL will be tough, too.
For sure back atchya. Red Sox Astros is the series the country deserves to see. Alex Cora was very well liked here and we were happy to see him advance to managing the Sox. The teams are managed in similar ways.
Your hitting when on is as scary as our pitching when on. I am unwilling to predict the outcome as our teams have such wild histories of heartbreaking and fluky losses. I hope it goes 6-7 games
BTW You are very right Bagwell/Biggio were big time playoff chokers.
Also we hope he isnt mad...Astros drafted JD Martinez in the 2009 20th round but after 3 years we gave up on him and gave him an outright release. OOPS
Now that my Yanks are out, go Brewers!
Kris Bryant reportedly turned down an extension offer of more than 200 million, no mention on the years involved from what I saw. Also the source was David Kaplan, so....
Game 1 of the NLCS will be at 7:09 p.m. (CT) on Friday, October 12 on FS1
Game 2 of the NLCS will begin at 3:09 p.m. (CT) on FOX
Game 3: Monday, October 15 at 6:39 p.m. on FS1
Game 4: Tuesday, October 16 at 8:09 p.m. on FS1
Game 5: Wednesday, October 17 at 4:05 p.m. on FS1
Game 6: Friday, October 19 at 7:39 p.m. on FS1
Game 7: Saturday, October 20 at 8:09 p.m. on FS1
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on October 10, 2018, 07:45:58 PM
Game 1 of the NLCS will be at 7:09 p.m. (CT) on Friday, October 12 on FS1
Game 2 of the NLCS will begin at 3:09 p.m. (CT) on FOX
Game 3: Monday, October 15 at 6:39 p.m. on FS1
Game 4: Tuesday, October 16 at 8:09 p.m. on FS1
Game 5: Wednesday, October 17 at 4:05 p.m. on FS1
Game 6: Friday, October 19 at 7:39 p.m. on FS1
Game 7: Saturday, October 20 at 8:09 p.m. on FS1
Phew. Max of 1 weeknight late game (Tuesday).
Quote from: SaveOD238 on October 10, 2018, 08:27:23 PM
Phew. Max of 1 weeknight late game (Tuesday).
I was really dreading game 4 if we didn't sweep best the Rockies in game 3. An 8:40 start would've been rough.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on October 10, 2018, 05:03:12 PM
Now that my Yanks are out, go Brewers!
I will second that!
Thoughts on the Brewers lineup choices? My take is that it's clearly a play at daring the Dodgers to play Puig, Peterson and Muncy against lefties (against whom they've been terrible) or play the inferior players (who are still above league average) in a platoon. Also sets up Chacin to be available in an elimination game 6 or 7
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 11, 2018, 06:57:25 PM
Thoughts on the Brewers lineup choices? My take is that it's clearly a play at daring the Dodgers to play Puig, Peterson and Muncy against lefties (against whom they've been terrible) or play the inferior players (who are still above league average) in a platoon. Also sets up Chacin to be available in an elimination game 6 or 7
I very much like the idea of trotting Gio and Miley out there in games 1 & 2 and keeping Chacin in the pen until game 3. Gio seems to be benefitting from a change in scenery and Miley has been stellar since coming off the DL. If Brewers hold serve at home, Counsell must believe that Chacin vs Hill/Ryu gives them a better chance to steal game 3.
Quote from: Benny B on October 11, 2018, 07:24:42 PM
I very much like the idea of trotting Gio and Miley out there in games 1 & 2 and keeping Chacin in the pen until game 3. Gio seems to be benefitting from a change in scenery and Miley has been stellar since coming off the DL. If Brewers hold serve at home, Counsell must believe that Chacin vs Hill/Ryu gives them a better chance to steal game 3.
I agree and like the pitching lineup.
Pitching decisions definitely make sense. Starting with two lefties preserves maximum flexibility late in the series. You could bring Gio back late in the series in relief to try to get a couple of outs based on matchups, or to try to get the Dodgers to situationally pull Puig or Muncy. I do think that suggests the Brewers will carry at least one more pitcher though, which means that at least one of Schoop, Broxton or Santana gets left off.
Brewers add Cedeno, drop Broxton from the NLCS roster. Everything else stays the same. No surprise that Cedeno gets added. I think leaving him off for the NLDS was the bigger surprise and had more to do with how the Rockies smashed lefties this year. Assuming the Brewers weren't going to carry 6 OFs again, Broxton was probably the most likely candidate to get left off - he and Granderson are a bit redundant and CC clearly values Granderson's experience. All six OFs played more than Schoop in the NLDS, though, so it'll be interesting to see what CC's plans for him are, given that Broxton is a useful defensive replacement and runner.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 12, 2018, 12:21:31 PM
Brewers add Cedeno, drop Broxton from the NLCS roster. Everything else stays the same. No surprise that Cedeno gets added. I think leaving him off for the NLDS was the bigger surprise and had more to do with how the Rockies smashed lefties this year. Assuming the Brewers weren't going to carry 6 OFs again, Broxton was probably the most likely candidate to get left off - he and Granderson are a bit redundant and CC clearly values Granderson's experience. All six OFs played more than Schoop in the NLDS, though, so it'll be interesting to see what CC's plans for him are, given that Broxton is a useful defensive replacement and runner.
I think Schoop could start a few games, maybe even tonight. Shaw does not hit lefties well and the Dodgers are loaded with southpaws. Plus Schoop can provide solid defense behind Gio and Miley, who aren't really big strikeout guys. But, is Schoop better than Hernan Perez in the same role?
I wouldn't be surprised to see Shaw used to clear a pitcher. Pinch hit him against a righty reliever (Baez or Maeda) so that Roberts makes a change to a more hittable lefty.
Unrelated to my earlier post, but I would LOVE to see some Freddy Peralta tonight. Using Gio (ground-ball lefty) then switching to Freddy (strikeout righty) could be a devastating combo, without taxing either guy too much.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on October 12, 2018, 01:21:33 PM
Unrelated to my earlier post, but I would LOVE to see some Freddy Peralta tonight. Using Gio (ground-ball lefty) then switching to Freddy (strikeout righty) could be a devastating combo, without taxing either guy too much.
I think we'll see Woodruff in that roll before Freddy. Freddy was great before there was a book out on him. Teams have figured out if you leave the 93 MPH fast ball at the eyes alone he walks a ton of guys and gets himself into trouble.
The tactical changes the two managers implement as they chase the platoon advantage is going to be fascinating. One thing that does give the Brewers advantage is that their bullpen isn't as platoon disadvantaged. Example: its true that Hader is much better against lefties than righties, but he's still well above league average against righties (in fact he's better against righties than anyone else in the pen). Another Example: Knebel has reverse splits against platoons this season. So how does Roberts react to Counsell's reactions and vice versa will be really interesting.
Having said all that, the Brewers have to plate runs, the Dodgers are going to score, the Brewers are going to need to win at least a couple of games 6-5, 7-6, etc.
Quote from: mu03eng on October 12, 2018, 01:57:21 PM
The tactical changes the two managers implement as they chase the platoon advantage is going to be fascinating. One thing that does give the Brewers advantage is that their bullpen isn't as platoon disadvantaged. Example: its true that Hader is much better against lefties than righties, but he's still well above league average against righties (in fact he's better against righties than anyone else in the pen). Another Example: Knebel has reverse splits against platoons this season. So how does Roberts react to Counsell's reactions and vice versa will be really interesting.
Having said all that, the Brewers have to plate runs, the Dodgers are going to score, the Brewers are going to need to win at least a couple of games 6-5, 7-6, etc.
I think the Brewers should have gone with 25 pitchers. That way, the starter could have pitched the first inning and then the other 24 could have worked 1/3 of an inning each.
Sure, scoring might have been a bit of a challenge for the Brewers in that scenario, but the more relievers the merrier, right?!?!?!
Quote from: MU82 on October 12, 2018, 02:10:15 PM
I think the Brewers should have gone with 25 pitchers. That way, the starter could have pitched the first inning and then the other 24 could have worked 1/3 of an inning each.
Sure, scoring might have been a bit of a challenge for the Brewers in that scenario, but the more relievers the merrier, right?!?!?!
So do you go Bugs Bunny at the 8 other positions, or do you simply use the umpire as a backstop?
Quote from: Benny B on October 12, 2018, 04:57:24 PM
So do you go Bugs Bunny at the 8 other positions, or do you simply use the umpire as a backstop?
Ghost runners on offense for sure
Woody giving me wood.
What the actual eff?
I was of the strong opinion three or four times already that CC was making the wrong move...and been completely wrong each time.
Twelve outs to go.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 12, 2018, 08:06:38 PM
Woody giving me wood.
What the actual eff?
Hate ta tink watt Hader gives ya, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 12, 2018, 09:04:32 PM
Hate ta tink watt Hader gives ya, aina?
Hader didn't take Kershaw deep down 1-0 out of the pen.
God these games are too long.
I don't understand letting Hader pitch 3 innings at all.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 12, 2018, 11:18:18 PM
I don't understand letting Hader pitch 3 innings at all.
Why wouldn't they "let" him pitch 3 innings?
Thank God they DID "let" him pitch 3 innings. Crew loses if he only goes 2.
He rarely pitches just 1 inning and rarely pitches back to back nights. Travel day Sunday. He's getting 2 days of rest. Ride him as long as you can.
It's fine. He hasn't pitched for what...six days? God this FS1 group is insufferable.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 12, 2018, 11:21:15 PM
Why wouldn't they "let" him pitch 3 innings?
Thank God they DID "let" him pitch 3 innings. Crew loses if he only goes 2.
He rarely pitches just 1 inning and rarely pitches back to back nights. Travel day Sunday. He's getting 2 days of rest. Ride him as long as you can.
Yeah especially with Jeffress hitting a bump in the road.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 12, 2018, 11:23:08 PM
It's fine. He hasn't pitched for what...six days? God this FS1 group is insufferable.
David Ortiz is borderline unbearable
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 12, 2018, 11:18:18 PM
I don't understand letting Hader pitch 3 innings at all.
Guess they thought this was a pretty big game. Guess you disagree.
I was at the game so didn't hear the commentary - was it really that bad?
Look, objectively you would have liked to be able to save Jeffress and/or Knebel in this one, so they have a point that they had to dig into the heart of our pen. But clearly Hader going multiple was part of the plan; otherwise there wasn't much reason to lift Woodruff for Santana, who only hit a 2 RBI single as opposed to a 3R HR. But all except Hader will be free tonight, and I'd expect them to try to get 4 out of Miley with 2-3 out of Burnes.
Should be a fun series, and if they can get Yelich and Cain rolling at the same time this postseason, they actually have a shot at this.
I'll say this - wow that Dodgers lineup never ends. Not one spot that you say, "Great, we can put in a lesser reliever against the bottom of the order". Every one of them has a .800 OPS and 25 HRs. It should be no surprise they finally found a way to break through
They could even bring in Hader in to face a batter or two. He has had plenty of rest and will have an off day Sunday.
Look it may not work due to the potency of LA's line-up, but that doesn't mean that Counsell over-managed his bullpen. That was the essence of the studio's criticism.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 13, 2018, 07:53:25 AM
I was at the game so didn't hear the commentary - was it really that bad?
Look, objectively you would have liked to be able to save Jeffress and/or Knebel in this one, so they have a point that they had to dig into the heart of our pen. But clearly Hader going multiple was part of the plan; otherwise there wasn't much reason to lift Woodruff for Santana, who only hit a 2 RBI single as opposed to a 3R HR. But all except Hader will be free tonight, and I'd expect them to try to get 4 out of Miley with 2-3 out of Burnes.
Should be a fun series, and if they can get Yelich and Cain rolling at the same time this postseason, they actually have a shot at this.
I'll say this - wow that Dodgers lineup never ends. Not one spot that you say, "Great, we can put in a lesser reliever against the bottom of the order". Every one of them has a .800 OPS and 25 HRs. It should be no surprise they finally found a way to break through
My biggest worry about Game 1 was our bullpen would be a bit rusty and it would cost us. That was big to get the win tonight. Other than the triple, it didn't seem like anyone got hit hard. Jeffress had some bad luck. I'm glad we pitched our guys to shake some rust off and still come out with the win. They had a bunch of rest and Sunday is an off day.
Dave Roberts on the CI call:
"Even looking at it - from what I heard - you really couldn't tell."
When are managers going to stop lying/complaining about calls that don't go their way, even when replay shows, in this case conclusively, that the call was correct? The entire world saw Grandal's glove move.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 12, 2018, 11:59:35 PM
Guess they thought this was a pretty big game. Guess you disagree.
Guess you are wrong. Of course it was big game. He cannot be used today after a career high in pitches. He came in with a 5-1 lead, is an amazing weapon. I hope it works out. I'm sure Counsell was hoping to not have to use both Knebel (22 pitches) and Jeffress, but it almost got away from them.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 09:15:23 AM
Guess you are wrong. Of course it was big game. He cannot be used today after a career high in pitches. He came in with a 5-1 lead, is an amazing weapon. I hope it works out. I'm sure Counsell was hoping to not have to use both Knebel (22 pitches) and Jeffress, but it almost got away from them.
A Cubs fan hoping it works out for the Brewers. Against the Dodgers. Hmm.
It was obviously the right move.
Quote from: cheebs09 on October 13, 2018, 08:25:36 AM
My biggest worry about Game 1 was our bullpen would be a bit rusty and it would cost us. That was big to get the win tonight. Other than the triple, it didn't seem like anyone got hit hard. Jeffress had some bad luck. I'm glad we pitched our guys to shake some rust off and still come out with the win. They had a bunch of rest and Sunday is an off day.
I think this is a big ol' helping of regression for Jeffress
Quote from: wadesworld on October 13, 2018, 09:48:54 AM
A Cubs fan hoping it works out for the Brewers. Against the Dodgers. Hmm.
It was obviously the right move.
In this series, yes. For the same reason that many of us cheer for Xavier or Villanova in non-conference games. There are those among us that cheer for Wisconsin football, or Wisconsin basketball when MU is not playing them. Notre Dame.
If the Dodgers win and they play the Red Sox, my rooting interest will be with the Dodgers. If the Dodgers win and they play the Astros, I go with the Astros.
How do you know it was the right move when today's game hasn't been played yet? Sometimes you win the battle and lose the war.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 12, 2018, 11:21:15 PM
Why wouldn't they "let" him pitch 3 innings?
Thank God they DID "let" him pitch 3 innings. Crew loses if he only goes 2.
He rarely pitches just 1 inning and rarely pitches back to back nights. Travel day Sunday. He's getting 2 days of rest. Ride him as long as you can.
You have no idea the Crew loses if he only goes 2 unless you can predict the future or outcomes that have never happened. Your opinion does not equate to factual outcomes. We will never know.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 13, 2018, 10:34:16 AM
I think this is a big ol' helping of regression for Jeffress
The one thing he has traditionally lacked has been consistency.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 13, 2018, 09:48:54 AM
A Cubs fan hoping it works out for the Brewers. Against the Dodgers. Hmm.
It was obviously the right move.
I think there are way more Cubs fans cheering for the Brewers than you think. I've been cheering for them since the second the Cubs got bounced.
Unless that was a Chicos shot, if so carry on.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 13, 2018, 08:14:44 AM
They could even bring in Hader in to face a batter or two. He has had plenty of rest and will have an off day Sunday.
Look it may not work due to the potency of LA's line-up, but that doesn't mean that Counsell over-managed his bullpen. That was the essence of the studio's criticism.
Counsell has already said Hader is burned for today, will not pitch at all.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 11:25:12 AM
Counsell has already said Hader is burned for today, will not pitch at all.
OK didn't see that. It doesn't really matter to my point however.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 13, 2018, 11:22:00 AM
I think there are way more Cubs fans cheering for the Brewers than you think. I've been cheering for them since the second the Cubs got bounced.
Unless that was a Chicos shot, if so carry on.
;)
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 11:03:07 AM
You have no idea the Crew loses if he only goes 2 unless you can predict the future or outcomes that have never happened. Your opinion does not equate to factual outcomes. We will never know.
I guess you missed the last 2 innings of the game. The Crew loses game 1 after going up 6-1 having had Kershaw on the bump of Hader doesn't pitch a third inning.
I know you're a *Cubs* fan so you've probably only seen the Brewers 15-20 times this year, but this is how they've handled Hader all season long. Give him the most important innings of the game, throw him multiple innings, give him a day off. Even if he doesn't pitch a 3rd inning, he's very likely not pitching today. When you lead game 1 of the NLCS having faced an all time great pitcher, you do everything you can to win it and worry about game 2 when you get there. Burned and Paralta are available for multiple innings today, Soria, Knebel, Jeffress, and Cedeno all available to pitch an inning today. Counsell managed that exactly how he had to.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 13, 2018, 12:31:55 PM
;)
I guess you missed the last 2 innings of the game. The Crew loses game 1 after going up 6-1 having had Kershaw on the bump of Hader doesn't pitch a third inning.
Again, you have no way of knowing this. None. I'm aware of how the Brewers have used their bullpen all year long. Yesterday was not the norm, it was his career high in pitches. Only the second time in his career he pitched 3 innings, thus not normal and not how they used him all year long. Yes, it is the playoffs, and you have to secure wins. It was 5-1 when he went in. I hope it works out for them.
Your other arguments continue to lack any substance which is why they are so easily brushed aside. The next thing you are going to tell me is a Bulls fan can't say someone is greater than Jordan, like a 49ers fan can't admit someone is better than Montana even if at one point in time Montana and Jordan were the greatest ever. Times change. Circumstances change.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 01:07:50 PM
Again, you have no way of knowing this. None. I'm aware of how the Brewers have used their bullpen all year long. Yesterday was not the norm, it was his career high in pitches. Only the second time in his career he pitched 3 innings, thus not normal and not how they used him all year long. Yes, it is the playoffs, and you have to secure wins. It was 5-1 when he went in. I hope it works out for them.
Your other arguments continue to lack any substance which is why they are so easily brushed aside. The next thing you are going to tell me is a Bulls fan can't say someone is greater than Jordan, like a 49ers fan can't admit someone is better than Montana even if at one point in time Montana and Jordan were the greatest ever. Times change. Circumstances change.
Hader wasn't pitching today regardless of if he came out for a 3rd inning or not. The absolute only thing him pitching a third inning changed in this series was it got the Brewers 1 extra inning of Hader at work. As a Brewers fan, that's a huge win. It WAS 6-1 when Hader came in. In the NLCS, when you get a lead in game 1 that Kershaw started, you don't just say, "Hey, we're up 5. Let's save our studs and throw out Freddy Peralta for the last 4 innings here!" Especially against a lineup like the Dodgers. You play to win game 1 when you have a lead, especially when you're not going to have Hader available the next day as it is anyways. Thank God Counsell threw Hader a 3rd because everyone that came in the last 2 innings struggled mightily. Crew blows that game if Hader doesn't come out for that third inning. Huge win. You'll learn someday.
Ok, watched 5 minutes of these bozos. Frank's the only one with his head on.
That damn wildling got him again.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on October 13, 2018, 05:53:37 PM
That damn wildling got him again.
No idea how he could through a breaking ball down and in to him. That is the pitch he wants/sets up for.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 13, 2018, 01:19:28 PM
Hader wasn't pitching today regardless of if he came out for a 3rd inning or not. The absolute only thing him pitching a third inning changed in this series was it got the Brewers 1 extra inning of Hader at work. As a Brewers fan, that's a huge win. It WAS 6-1 when Hader came in. In the NLCS, when you get a lead in game 1 that Kershaw started, you don't just say, "Hey, we're up 5. Let's save our studs and throw out Freddy Peralta for the last 4 innings here!" Especially against a lineup like the Dodgers. You play to win game 1 when you have a lead, especially when you're not going to have Hader available the next day as it is anyways. Thank God Counsell threw Hader a 3rd because everyone that came in the last 2 innings struggled mightily. Crew blows that game if Hader doesn't come out for that third inning. Huge win. You'll learn someday.
Didn't need him to pitch 3 innings yesterday in the first place. Didn't need him to come in at 5-1 either.
Brewers just coughed up late lead. I won't be like you and say the Brewers would have won tonight (they may still) if they used Hader smarter because unlike you, I can't predict the impossible. That being said, I'm betting every Brewers fans wishes they had Hader here at the end of this game for at least one inning.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 05:56:41 PM
Didn't need him to pitch 3 innings yesterday in the first place. Didn't need him to come in at 5-1 either.
Brewers just coughed up late lead. I won't be like you and say the Brewers would have won tonight (they may still) if they used Hader smarter because unlike you, I can't predict the impossible. That being said, I'm betting every Brewers fans wishes they had Hader here at the end of this game for at least one inning.
Hader was not pitching today regardless. I don't know how you don't understand this. It's not hard to comprehend. This. Is. What. They. Do. With. Hader. He wasn't pitching today.
They certainly needed him to go 3. They won the game by 1 run with him going 3 scoreless. You have it entirely wrong Chicos Cubs fan.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 05:56:41 PM
Didn't need him to pitch 3 innings yesterday in the first place. Didn't need him to come in at 5-1 either.
Brewers just coughed up late lead. I won't be like you and say the Brewers would have won tonight (they may still) if they used Hader smarter because unlike you, I can't predict the impossible. That being said, I'm betting every Brewers fans wishes they had Hader here at the end of this game for at least one inning.
Hader typically got off days during the season after throwing 2 innings in a game. (I'd say always but my fact checker has the weekend off.) So throwing a third inning yesterday is irrelevant as Hader would have been off today after throwing two anyway.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on October 13, 2018, 06:08:17 PM
Hader typically got off days during the season after throwing 2 innings in a game. (I'd say always but my fact checker has the weekend off.) So throwing a third inning yesterday is irrelevant as Hader would have been off today after throwing two anyway.
Up 5-1, you didn't need to use Hader in that position yesterday to begin with. John Smoltz has stated the obvious. Sometimes you win the battle and lose the war.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 06:22:55 PM
Up 5-1, you didn't need to use Hader in that position yesterday to begin with. John Smoltz has stated the obvious. Sometimes you win the battle and lose the war.
So you're only questioning the timing? If CC doesn't use Hader there and the other receivers do exactly what they did you still use Hader later in the game. CC has said that Gio was never going to bat so it was going to be a bullpen game regardless. No way Hader doesn't get used at all so sending him out for 5-7, is no different than if he got used in inning 7-8, or 7-9. Hader was always going to pitch in game one and never in game two. CC confirmed, if you disagree you're just trolling.
Has to be deflating, those were two games Milwaukee should have won with better bullpen management in my opinion.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 13, 2018, 06:47:20 PM
Has to be deflating, those were two games Milwaukee should have won with better bullpen management in my opinion.
The Brewers won 96 regular season games, won the NL Central to send your beloved Cubbies to a 1 and done appearance in the post season, and swept through the NLDS with the exact same bullpen management that has them at 1-1 in the NLCS. I doubt they're deflated, but maybe.
Damn. The only particular play/decision in that game that was really upsetting was Burnes issuing that leadoff walk to Muncy in the 7th. Up 3-0, he's got to hit the zone, even at the risk of getting hit. Make them beat you and keep ducks off the pond. If Muncy mashes one, oh well. Then its 3-1 and Counsell goes to the bullpen with the bases empty. You just can't start their rally for them.
The rest was just baseball being baseball.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 13, 2018, 07:32:19 PM
Damn. The only particular play/decision in that game that was really upsetting was Burnes issuing that leadoff walk to Muncy in the 7th. Up 3-0, he's got to hit the zone, even at the risk of getting hit. Make them beat you and keep ducks off the pond. If Muncy mashes one, oh well. Then its 3-1 and Counsell goes to the bullpen with the bases empty. You just can't start their rally for them.
The rest was just baseball being baseball.
I wasn't a fan of Counsell sending Jeffress back out there for a second inning of work after walking in a run with their worst player at the plate. I'm not sure he's thrown a scoreless inning this entire postseason. There were enough arms still available (Soria, Knebel, Cedeno, even Guerra and Peralta) to get you 6 more outs, especially with the Dodgers having 0 available position players to come off the bench.
But yeah otherwise the Dodgers are simply a good team. You aren't going to shut them out.
CSquared's fook up wuz pullin' Miley wen he did. Looked behind da rong curtain dis tyme, doe, aina?
Quote from: wadesworld on October 13, 2018, 07:35:29 PM
I wasn't a fan of Counsell sending Jeffress back out there for a second inning of work after walking in a run with their worst player at the plate. I'm not sure he's thrown a scoreless inning this entire postseason. There were enough arms still available (Soria, Knebel, Cedeno, even Guerra and Peralta) to get you 6 more outs, especially with the Dodgers having 0 available position players to come off the bench.
But yeah otherwise the Dodgers are simply a good team. You aren't going to shut them out.
I can see that - tough judgment call. Jeffress was having a little trouble locating, but his stuff had good snap and he was able to locate the fb on the outside corner when he really had to have it. Does that make another inning of him the best option? Hard to say. I think Knebel was going to go no matter what, so it probably boils down to more Jeffress vs Soria.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 13, 2018, 07:35:29 PM
I wasn't a fan of Counsell sending Jeffress back out there for a second inning of work after walking in a run with their worst player at the plate. I'm not sure he's thrown a scoreless inning this entire postseason. There were enough arms still available (Soria, Knebel, Cedeno, even Guerra and Peralta) to get you 6 more outs, especially with the Dodgers having 0 available position players to come off the bench.
But yeah otherwise the Dodgers are simply a good team. You aren't going to shut them out.
Yeah agree all around. They can win 2 out of 3 in LA.
Can the Brew Crew take both game 6 and 7 on their home field? That is the question
I am not getting ahead of myself, here. Brewers can steal one back in LA but I do not see them going out there and taking 2 of 3 at Chavez....so...
this series will likely return to Milw and the homefield advantage team Brewers simply need to take care of business in both 6 and 7...totally doable
I look forward to this series....to see who will play my Astros in WS (fingers crossed-lol)
I do not think I would have been able to resist leaving Miley in the game. He was dominant.
Now, I do know that if CC leaves him in and the lead gets blown without the Best Bullpen Ever being deployed, CC would be second-guessed out the wazoo there, too. And there is safety in dancing with the girl who brung ya.
Still, while folks talk all the time about pitch counts for a starter, but they hardly ever talk about the wear and tear on a reliever who gets used day after day after day after day in stressful situations - and the Brewers have several of those.
Here the Brewers had a starter who was in total control of the game; CC could have given more than Hader a break - or at least considered it.
Obviously, just my opinion.
Quote from: MU82 on October 13, 2018, 10:09:33 PM
I do not think I would have been able to resist leaving Miley in the game. He was dominant.
That was my thought. I don't watch the Brewers regularly, but at the time I was thinking "Why are you taking this guy out? He's cruising!" Counsell knows his team way better than I do, but I always prefer leaving in a guy who I know has it going well, rather than going to the bullpen for a guy who may or may not have it that day.
Quote from: CTWarrior on October 15, 2018, 03:38:49 PM
That was my thought. I don't watch the Brewers regularly, but at the time I was thinking "Why are you taking this guy out? He's cruising!" Counsell knows his team way better than I do, but I always prefer leaving in a guy who I know has it going well, rather than going to the bullpen for a guy who may or may not have it that day.
That is the prevailing thought in (playoff -- well mostly anyways) baseball right now. Get the starter through 4. Anything else is a bonus. I don't get it. I know relievers are more dominant than they have ever been, but outside a couple guys on each team (a couple if they are lucky), most of these guys aren't relief aces, and there is a reason they are not starters. Maybe the stuff plays up a bit in shorter stints, but still, the starters are for the most part, just simply better pitchers. I am certainly rooting against bullpenning becoming more of a thing. I understand the attraction and how it can pay off, but it just isn't as compelling to see Chris Sale (even not vintage Chris Sale) come out after 4 innings, 1 hit and 86 pitches to bring Joe Kelly (who they then tried to stretch for 2 innings which he hasn't done since May) confuses the crap out of my baseball sensibilities.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 15, 2018, 03:51:26 PM
That is the prevailing thought in (playoff -- well mostly anyways) baseball right now. Get the starter through 4. Anything else is a bonus. I don't get it. I know relievers are more dominant than they have ever been, but outside a couple guys on each team (a couple if they are lucky), most of these guys aren't relief aces, and there is a reason they are not starters. Maybe the stuff plays up a bit in shorter stints, but still, the starters are for the most part, just simply better pitchers. I am certainly rooting against bullpenning becoming more of a thing. I understand the attraction and how it can pay off, but it just isn't as compelling to see Chris Sale (even not vintage Chris Sale) come out after 4 innings, 1 hit and 86 pitches to bring Joe Kelly (who they then tried to stretch for 2 innings which he hasn't done since May) confuses the crap out of my baseball sensibilities.
I'm no expert but the analytics maybe suggest otherwise. There is clearly a trend in baseball to shorter and shorter starts and mostly avoiding the '3rd time through the order'. Obviously each situation and pitcher is unique but many teams these days are mostly built with bullpens. Perhaps it has something to do with 7 year, jillion dollar contracts for those true #1 starters. The Crew was assembled for defensive position flexibility/substitution while taking advantage of a solid 6 man pen. Often they save at least 1-2 ABs from their 27 outs compared to others that ask pitchers to hit more. It got them this far and won the NL Central. Is it enough? Time will tell. But they're doing it with roughly half the payroll of their more superstar laden rivals and maybe the only way they can in MKE.
I was okay with Miley getting pulled when he did, so it would be disingenuous for me to criticize now (regardless of my curiosity of how it would've worked out!) Miley's stuff isn't overpowering, but he was doing a good job keeping LA off balance - primarily with the cutter. CC pulled him after giving up a hit to Taylor, and if Miley gives up an extra base hit to a right-handed Turner on the next AB, CC would've been forced to bring in a cold pitcher in with the tying run on second. Even if he left Miley in and he'd gotten Turner out, there was no way that Miley was going back out for the 7th having thrown 80 pitches to face an all righty order of Freese-Machado-Bellinger.
I go back to game one and the pitching decisions made in that game that may have caused some of the game two issues.
You have two pitchers on the roster (Guerra and Peralta) who are there only to pitch in blowouts, extra innings, or due to injury. You're up five runs in the eight inning, which is kind of a blowout. I wanted to see Guerra come in and try to get the last six outs. He's been an effective reliver in September. If it works, you save Cedeno, Jeffress, Soria and Knebel for game two (fresh). Worst case is Guerra gives up a couple of hits and you bring the big guns in. As it was, the "big guns" gave up four runs and almost blew the game. Guerra pitched a scoreless inning in game two.
So, this is just one case obviously, but in the case of Chris Sale (another wild card is how Sale was bafflingly used in relief in Game 5 of the ALDS) and the 3rd time through, teams hit .189/.245/.364 off of Sale for an OPS against of .608. That is the 3rd time through. Kelly's numbers are .234/.330/.332.
Now who knows what data the Red Sox have and what they were looking at, but it is no secret their pen isn't good. It is also odd that they would try to stretch Kelly into a second inning. It doesn't seem like good planning.
Miley, was rarely allowed to get to the 3rd time through the order. In the opportunities he received, he did quite well. Teams hit .213/.290/.328 off of him the 3rd time he faced them.
This Buehler kid can pitch.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 15, 2018, 07:45:43 PM
This Buehler kid can pitch.
Yeah. No joke. The Sox taking one of his teammates over him in the draft is a huge miss by the scouting department. Especially because the guy they did pick can't throw strikes. Like at all.
Chacin being the ace the Brewers need. Heck of an outing.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 15, 2018, 07:45:43 PM
This Buehler kid can pitch.
Nah, dis Knebel kid kan pitch, aina?
Brewers should be all hands on deck tomorrow. Everyone in the pen should be available. Hill has dominated the Brewers, but I think they can get to him.
3-0 would look real nice. But 2-1 having faced Kershaw, Ryu, and Buehler is nice.
Get me 2 of the next 4 Crew.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 15, 2018, 10:38:03 PM
Brewers should be all hands on deck tomorrow. Everyone in the pen should be available. Hill has dominated the Brewers, but I think they can get to him.
3-0 would look real nice. But 2-1 having faced Kershaw, Ryu, and Buehler is nice.
Get me 2 of the next 4 Crew.
I'll take 2 of 2. We get the good result and I don't have to pa for two more NLCS games.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 15, 2018, 07:55:33 PM
Chacin being the ace the Brewers need. Heck of an outing.
Again, I would have let Chacin finish that inning. Then bring in Knebel to pitch the 7th and 8th ... and I might never need Hader. Then you've got a fresh Hader for the next 2 games.
But congrats to the Crew for hanging on and taking a 2-1 lead. Coulda been 3-0, but 2-1 is still great.
Quote from: MU82 on October 15, 2018, 11:23:19 PM
Again, I would have let Chacin finish that inning. Then bring in Knebel to pitch the 7th and 8th ... and I might never need Hader. Then you've got a fresh Hader for the next 2 games.
But congrats to the Crew for hanging on and taking a 2-1 lead. Coulda been 3-0, but 2-1 is still great.
Hader threw 8 pitches. He's fine for both these games if the proper situation presents itself.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 15, 2018, 05:10:03 PM
So, this is just one case obviously, but in the case of Chris Sale (another wild card is how Sale was bafflingly used in relief in Game 5 of the ALDS) and the 3rd time through, teams hit .189/.245/.364 off of Sale for an OPS against of .608. That is the 3rd time through. Kelly's numbers are .234/.330/.332.
Now who knows what data the Red Sox have and what they were looking at, but it is no secret their pen isn't good. It is also odd that they would try to stretch Kelly into a second inning. It doesn't seem like good planning.
Miley, was rarely allowed to get to the 3rd time through the order. In the opportunities he received, he did quite well. Teams hit .213/.290/.328 off of him the 3rd time he faced them.
Chris Sale is not Chris Sale right now. He had only allowed one hit, but he was wild, and as it turned out, he was in the hospital with illness the next day. I was pretty confident he was coming out, though I thought they might try to stretch him another inning. Kelly is a he has it or he doesn't guy. When he is bad, he is really bad. When he pitched well in the first inning, it made sense to keep him out there a second. He was a starter for many years and can handle the work. The Sox bullpen has three solid guys, Brasier, Barnes and Kimbrel. Getting through the sixth meant they probably wouldn't have to go to the weaker part of the bullpen, which they surprisingly did in the ninth and it cost them a chance in the bottom of the ninth.
Anyone else voting to not let Jeffress pick up his 3rd blown save this month?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 16, 2018, 07:24:59 AM
Anyone else voting to not let Jeffress pick up his 3rd blown save this month?
Absolutely not. The Crew is 2 games away from the pennant and 6 games away from the WS Championship. You dance with the date you brung. They ain't doing it without him. I absolutely LOVED Cous' approach last night. We're 25 strong. That's how we roll. (But I'm sure glad it wasn't a 1 run lead!)
Quote from: MU82 on October 15, 2018, 11:23:19 PM
Again, I would have let Chacin finish that inning. Then bring in Knebel to pitch the 7th and 8th ... and I might never need Hader. Then you've got a fresh Hader for the next 2 games.
But congrats to the Crew for hanging on and taking a 2-1 lead. Coulda been 3-0, but 2-1 is still great.
This is how the Brewers have won all year. No need to change that up now.
Quote from: jsglow on October 16, 2018, 08:03:23 AM
Absolutely not. The Crew is 2 games away from the pennant and 6 games away from the WS Championship. You dance with the date you brung. They ain't doing it without him. I absolutely LOVED Cous' approach last night. We're 25 strong. That's how we roll. (But I'm sure glad it wasn't a 1 run lead!)
JJ will still log innings, but I wouldn't be opposed to sliding Knebel back to closer, especially if you know you're only going to get 1 ip out of him anyways. Much better stuff right now, and certainly has experience closing.
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 16, 2018, 08:36:55 AM
JJ will still log innings, but I wouldn't be opposed to sliding Knebel back to closer, especially if you know you're only going to get 1 ip out of him anyways. Much better stuff right now, and certainly has experience closing.
This I think is right. I'm actually fine with using Jeffress in the 9th - just not against the Dodgers best hitters. If the batters for Knebel and Jeffress were switched, I'd have felt better
They brought Knebel in during a much higher leverage situation - runner on second with one out and up 2-0. Jeffress was brought in 4-0 at the beginning of the 9th.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 16, 2018, 09:51:10 AM
They brought Knebel in during a much higher leverage situation - runner on second with one out and up 2-0. Jeffress was brought in 4-0 at the beginning of the 9th.
I think this is the way CC is seeing it, and I don't think there will be one guy filling the closer role for the rest of the playoffs. My bet would be that if the Brewers find a way to win six more, Knebel, Jeffress and Hader each throw the last pitch in a win at least once.
And as for when CC pulled Chacin last night, whether we agree or disagree, CC is not going to allow a starter to face a R-L or L-R matchup his third time through the lineup with a man on base the rest of the way. Its the ultimate example of trusting the numbers over feel, and CC feels he has the bullpen option to not break that rule.
Quote from: jsglow on October 16, 2018, 08:03:23 AM
Absolutely not. The Crew is 2 games away from the pennant and 6 games away from the WS Championship. You dance with the date you brung. They ain't doing it without him. I absolutely LOVED Cous' approach last night. We're 25 strong. That's how we roll. (But I'm sure glad it wasn't a 1 run lead!)
This. In a game where performance is highly mental, bottom of the ninth last night could very well be the inflection point for the remainder of the Brewer's postseason.
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 16, 2018, 08:36:55 AM
JJ will still log innings, but I wouldn't be opposed to sliding Knebel back to closer, especially if you know you're only going to get 1 ip out of him anyways. Much better stuff right now, and certainly has experience closing.
Fair statement. Couns has used him that way recently at times since September 1 return.
Quote from: jsglow on October 16, 2018, 10:30:06 AM
Fair statement. Couns has used him that way recently at times since September 1 return.
Counsell is playing the metrics.
Why didn't Counsell pull Jeffress after putting runners on 2nd and 3rd? Look at the matchups:
Bellinger: 0 for 1, 1 IBB
Puig: 0 for 5, 5 K's
Grandal: 2 for 6, 2 K's
Dozier: 3 for 9, 3 K's / Barnes: 0 for 1, 1 K, 1 BB
Taylor: 1 for 3
So runners on 2nd and 3rd... up four runs, the Dodgers - realistically - need at least 2-3 hits (and/or walks) to at least tie the game.
Puig and Grandal are power threats, so either one could tie the game if the prior batter reaches. Bellinger hasn't faced Jeffress except for an intentional walk earlier in the year, and Puig is 0 for 5 with 5 K's against Jeffress. Grandal might reach, but he's just as likely to strikeout. So you roll the dice there knowing that you're going to get to the pitcher's spot with the lead, and neither Dozier nor Barnes is a HR threat.
So even if Bellinger hits a sac fly, if Jeffress can get him out, the Brewers are in great shape with Puig a likely 2nd out but still followed by two batters who are equally likely to hit as they are to strikeout... so even if Grandal or Dozier/Barnes reaches, the odds say the other spot will strike out.
If Bellinger reaches, Counsell most definitely gets somebody up in the pen knowing he can probably let Jeffress face two more batters and still maintain a lead.
As Counsell said, he's not managing to win games, he's managing to win series. The odds of success with Jeffress in last night's gameplan were still in the Brewers favor, and in executing the plan, it sets them up very nicely for Game 4 having both Hader and Knebel ready to go. The alternative is taking the "sure" bet with letting Hader pitch the 9th, and now you don't have that weapon at your disposal in Game 4.
The way I look at it, even if pulling Hader and giving the ball to Jeffress in the ninth (in Game 3) decreased the Brewer's odds of winning to 50%, the Brewers are 48-7 in games that Hader pitches and 48-60 in games that he does not.
Even with his October struggles, nobody wants to face Kershaw/Ryu in must-win games... so if winning the series is the goal, having Hader available to pitch Game 4 certainly seems to outweigh the risk of using Jeffress to close out Game 3.
Wow, the Angels are opting out of their ballpark agreement.
Quote from: Benny B on October 16, 2018, 01:33:24 PM
Counsell is playing the metrics.
Why didn't Counsell pull Jeffress after putting runners on 2nd and 3rd? Look at the matchups:
Bellinger: 0 for 1, 1 IBB
Puig: 0 for 5, 5 K's
Grandal: 2 for 6, 2 K's
Dozier: 3 for 9, 3 K's / Barnes: 0 for 1, 1 K, 1 BB
Taylor: 1 for 3
So runners on 2nd and 3rd... up four runs, the Dodgers - realistically - need at least 2-3 hits (and/or walks) to at least tie the game.
Puig and Grandal are power threats, so either one could tie the game if the prior batter reaches. Bellinger hasn't faced Jeffress except for an intentional walk earlier in the year, and Puig is 0 for 5 with 5 K's against Jeffress. Grandal might reach, but he's just as likely to strikeout. So you roll the dice there knowing that you're going to get to the pitcher's spot with the lead, and neither Dozier nor Barnes is a HR threat.
So even if Bellinger hits a sac fly, if Jeffress can get him out, the Brewers are in great shape with Puig a likely 2nd out but still followed by two batters who are equally likely to hit as they are to strikeout... so even if Grandal or Dozier/Barnes reaches, the odds say the other spot will strike out.
If Bellinger reaches, Counsell most definitely gets somebody up in the pen knowing he can probably let Jeffress face two more batters and still maintain a lead.
As Counsell said, he's not managing to win games, he's managing to win series. The odds of success with Jeffress in last night's gameplan were still in the Brewers favor, and in executing the plan, it sets them up very nicely for Game 4 having both Hader and Knebel ready to go. The alternative is taking the "sure" bet with letting Hader pitch the 9th, and now you don't have that weapon at your disposal in Game 4.
The way I look at it, even if pulling Hader and giving the ball to Jeffress in the ninth (in Game 3) decreased the Brewer's odds of winning to 50%, the Brewers are 48-7 in games that Hader pitches and 48-60 in games that he does not.
Even with his October struggles, nobody wants to face Kershaw/Ryu in must-win games... so if winning the series is the goal, having Hader available to pitch Game 4 certainly seems to outweigh the risk of using Jeffress to close out Game 3.
I think I followed that. And I texted my son when they brought Hader in that he was getting 2 outs and departing for Jeffress.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 16, 2018, 04:02:35 PM
Wow, the Angels are opting out of their ballpark agreement.
Can't believe it took this long... I'd have thought they would have opted-out as soon for safety reasons many years ago after having two fans fall from the upper deck (one into the crowd, one onto the promenade) during the same game.
Quote from: jsglow on October 16, 2018, 07:00:22 AM
Hader threw 8 pitches. He's fine for both these games if the proper situation presents itself.
You're probably right, but they were 8 pressure pitches and he also had to warm up. So who knows with today's pitchers?
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 16, 2018, 08:05:46 AM
This is how the Brewers have won all year. No need to change that up now.
Managers make strategic changes all the time during the postseason. A 7-game series against a great team with a pennant on the line is a lot different than a three-game May series against the Reds.
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2018, 04:28:50 PM
You're probably right, but they were 8 pressure pitches and he also had to warm up. So who knows with today's pitchers?
Managers make strategic changes all the time during the postseason. A 7-game series against a great team with a pennant on the line is a lot different than a three-game May series against the Reds.
82, you're not really suggesting you know more about this than the guy that was just named Manager of the Year by Sporting News?
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2018, 04:28:50 PM
You're probably right, but they were 8 pressure pitches and he also had to warm up. So who knows with today's pitchers?
"With today's pitchers?" Next thing you'll be opining on how Clayton Kershaw is a 23-skidoo next to Walter Johnson or Kid Nichols.
Quote from: jsglow on October 16, 2018, 04:44:53 PM
82, you're not really suggesting you know more about this than the guy that was just named Manager of the Year by Sporting News?
No sir. Just exercising my right as a fan to second-guess!
Quote from: Benny B on October 16, 2018, 04:48:10 PM
"With today's pitchers?" Next thing you'll be opining on how Clayton Kershaw is a 23-skidoo next to Walter Johnson or Kid Nichols.
Kershaw is an iron man today because he usually lasts 7 whole innings.
Quote from: jsglow on October 16, 2018, 04:44:53 PM
82, you're not really suggesting you know more about this than the guy that was just named Manager of the Year by Sporting News?
Why does that mean he is above questioning? Jefferss has been terrible. Hader has been unhittable. It was a questionable move that worked out because he ran into hitters that are struggling as well. Not necessarily because it was a good move.
Quote from: Benny B on October 16, 2018, 04:48:10 PM
"With today's pitchers?" Next thing you'll be opining on how Clayton Kershaw is a 23-skidoo next to Walter Johnson or Kid Nichols.
That seems like a completely justifiable criticism of today's game to me. I gotta go, got some clouds to yell at.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 16, 2018, 04:57:20 PM
Why does that mean he is above questioning? Jefferss has been terrible. Hader has been unhittable. It was a questionable move that worked out because he ran into hitters that are struggling as well. Not necessarily because it was a good move.
He's not. And armchairing is always fun. But too many armchairs (not point at 82 at all) think they actually know better. Heck, we see it on scoop all the time!
Well, coaches and/or managers are human and they make mistakes quite often. Some even admit to it occasionally. Sometimes, educated fans do get a situation right that coaches/managers don't.
For example, I would never say I know more about football than Dick Jauron did, but he and his Bears staff made a LOT of mistakes.
Gotta run to umpire a youth baseball game now. I'll probably be told about all the mistakes I allegedly make ... and I know a hell of a lot more about baseball rules than all the parents who'll be yelling at me!
As nervous as Jeffress made me, I was glad the move was made. Jeffress needs to get his groove back, and while loading the bases in the 9th isn't the way to do that....maybe working out of that jam without surrendering a run is.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 16, 2018, 05:35:57 PM
As nervous as Jeffress made me, I was glad the move was made. Jeffress needs to get his groove back, and while loading the bases in the 9th isn't the way to do that....maybe working out of that jam without surrendering a run is.
I missed this completely as I paced around the room. Wonder if Yazzy poked the bear.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1839170262866838&id=57166781694
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 16, 2018, 05:51:22 PM
I missed this completely as I paced around the room. Wonder if Yazzy poked the bear.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1839170262866838&id=57166781694
I think it was more Grandal being in a complete and total slump. His AB was just plain terrible.
Grandal looks like a low Single-A player right now. Embarrassingly bad both at the plate and in the field.
Schoop was a major bust.
Not sure why School is on this roster let alone this lineup. But happy effing birthday I guess
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 16, 2018, 10:19:31 PM
Schoop was a major bust.
That was just a terrible AB. I seem to be thinking that quite a lot.
Cain has been terrible and I think it's holding Yelich bat. Another awful at bat right there for him.
Machado (and Puig) is such a dirty douche (to put it nicely).
Is this what purgatory feels like
Let the second guessing begin...
Only thing to second guess is not bunting Pina to 3rd.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 17, 2018, 01:28:11 AM
Only thing to second guess is not bunting Pina to 3rd.
Smoltz was first guessing it. Great finish, but kind of a brutal game.
You could also second guess pitching to Bellinger with how brutal Grandal has been.
Dodgers top 3 pitchers coming up. Cain and Yelich better wake up otherwise this series is toast. Can only ride the bottom of the line up for so long.
Unless the guys remember how to hit in the next 14.5 hours, they're done. Just a killer loss.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Before everybody starts freaking out (too late), lets look at the facts.
1. Brewers have already regained home field advantage. At least mentally, that's huge.
2. The only relievers that should be out tomorrow are Freddy, Corbin, and Junior. That means we can still throw Hader, Knebel, Jeffress, Woodruff, and Xavier. Coming off a 13 inning game, that's not bad.
3. Miley has been STELLAR so far this postseason. I have more confidence in him than I did in Gio today (now yesterday).
4. This line-up, that people are now freaking out about, has already given Kershaw the worst start of his postseason career (which wasn't great to begin with).
This does not mean that the series is #donedeal for the Brewers, but we are in a fine position after 4 games.
Quote from: MUDPT on October 17, 2018, 01:27:09 AM
Let the second guessing begin...
No second guessing. Gut punch and the sickening feeling that they might be heading back to Milwaukee down.
Interesting to think about what might have been if the umps had the courage to make the right call and eject Machado.
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 17, 2018, 02:21:28 AMInteresting to think about what might have been if the umps had the courage to make the right call and eject Machado.
Or if you walk Bellinger with a base open, with Grandal and the pitcher's spot to follow...
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 17, 2018, 01:32:12 AM
Unless the guys remember how to hit in the next 14.5 hours, they're done. Just a killer loss.
I'm not sure I would classify it as such. Game 2 was worse. The Dodgers aren't hitting either because both teams are using their pitching so well. The Dodgers left more on base than the Brewers did and really could have broken the game open early but didn't manage to do that.
This is what playoff baseball can look like - especially with evenly matched teams.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 17, 2018, 08:00:12 AM
I'm not sure I would classify it as such. Game 2 was worse. The Dodgers aren't hitting either because both teams are using their pitching so well. The Dodgers left more on base than the Brewers did and really could have broken the game open early but didn't manage to do that.
This is what playoff baseball can look like - especially with evenly matched teams.
This.
I thought last year's MLB Postseason set the high-water mark for what playoff baseball should look like -- close games, lead changes, plenty of strategy, overall excitement (even for the unaligned fan), etc. -- but 2018 is shaping up to be a pillar in its own right as both CS's are on course for two Game 7's this weekend.
Sure, the Brewers could have (dare I say, should have) closed out the Dodgers by now, but I have to admit, this is fun. I'm not keen on going back to Milwaukee needing to win back-to-back games, but good lord baby Krishna, I would love to see the Brewers win in 7 games on Saturday.
Gotta try to give Kershaw another one of his patented October meltdowns today. Dodgers had to use every arm in their pen, and while most of them will be available they might not be throwing their best stuff. That last inning was a shame. I really felt like if they got through the middle of the Dodger's lineup it would seal the win for them. Came one out too short.
Do the Brewers throw at Machado?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 17, 2018, 11:46:27 AM
Do the Brewers throw at Machado?
Not until next year.
Other news - Gio out - Davies in. Gio done for year with High Ankle Sprain.
Quote from: Chili on October 17, 2018, 11:52:55 AM
Not until next year.
Other news - Gio out - Davies in. Gio done for year with High Ankle Sprain.
Brewers don't play the Yankee's next year, so it would have to be this series. That being said, absolutely no, do not throw at him, Dodgers line-up is good enough without giving free bases. I don't want to essentially reward a player for being dirty. If you really want to get him back, sit em down.
It's always tough to lose a game that goes so long. The team that wins feels like a "team of destiny" and the one that loses feels like breaks might not be going their way -- or maybe I should say a team's fans might feel that way.
The Brewers aren't hitting much ... but neither are the Dodgers. Welcome to October baseball. I think the Crew is in excellent position. If they beat Kershaw today, they will win the series in 6 IMHO. Even if they lose today, they still are very much in it.
I absolutely hate sacrifice bunts, but even I probably would have bunted over Pina. Having said that, I think CC has done well in his first postseason. He needs to get a bigger cap, though; he has a big red line across his forehead, and he kept trying to solve the problem by moving the cap further back on his head. I know the Brewers have some pricey players, but they can afford a new cap for their skipper!
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2018, 12:02:38 PM
It's always tough to lose a game that goes so long. The team that wins feels like a "team of destiny" and the one that loses feels like breaks might not be going their way -- or maybe I should say a team's fans might feel that way.
The Brewers aren't hitting much ... but neither are the Dodgers. Welcome to October baseball. I think the Crew is in excellent position. If they beat Kershaw today, they will win the series in 6 IMHO. Even if they lose today, they still are very much in it.
I absolutely hate sacrifice bunts, but even I probably would have bunted over Pina. Having said that, I think CC has done well in his first postseason. He needs to get a bigger cap, though; he has a big red line across his forehead, and he kept trying to solve the problem by moving the cap further back on his head. I know the Brewers have some pricey players, but they can afford a new cap for their skipper!
For a while there, I thought you were referring to salary cap. He could use a new one of those too.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 17, 2018, 08:00:12 AM
I'm not sure I would classify it as such. Game 2 was worse. The Dodgers aren't hitting either because both teams are using their pitching so well. The Dodgers left more on base than the Brewers did and really could have broken the game open early but didn't manage to do that.
This is what playoff baseball can look like - especially with evenly matched teams.
Part of it has certainly been good pitching, though I think there were some hitters with really terrible approaches last night that led to some really bad ABs. Regardless of outcome, the guys that I would say had a good plan they executed in their ABs were Justin Turner and Ryan Braun. Most of the other guys (especially on the Dodgers) seemed like they were trying to hit a HR every single time.
Quote from: MU82 on October 17, 2018, 12:02:38 PM
I absolutely hate sacrifice bunts, but even I probably would have bunted over Pina. Having said that, I think CC has done well in his first postseason.
Counsell is already on the record that he despises sac bunting (bunting for a hit or squeeze is ok)... I don't know how much of that has to do with the fact that the Brewers seem to struggle in the bunting opportunities they've had this year (in over 300 games, Arcia only has 3 sac bunts), but with the way Arcia had been hitting in the Postseason, and given LA's late-inning prowess in the first three games, I think Counsell going for a crooked number in the 7th was the right move.
Quote from: Benny B on October 17, 2018, 01:49:50 PM
Counsell is already on the record that he despises sac bunting (bunting for a hit or squeeze is ok)... I don't know how much of that has to do with the fact that the Brewers seem to struggle in the bunting opportunities they've had this year (in over 300 games, Arcia only has 3 sac bunts), but with the way Arcia had been hitting in the Postseason, and given LA's late-inning prowess in the first three games, I think Counsell going for a crooked number in the 7th was the right move.
And even the math is more complicated than Smoltz and A-Rod made it out to be on FS1 last night. Sure, a man on third with one out has a higher % chance to score than a man on second with no outs. But the calculation doesn't stop there. You still need to consider that the runner is your catcher, so there's probably a narrower universe of balls in play that score him from third. Then once you calculate the 3rd/1 out - 2nd/0 outs spread, you need to determine its big enough to cover the risk that something goes wrong. And when the runner on 2nd is your catcher and the batter is a guy you've sent up and down from the minors, has 3 sac bunts in his MLB career, and isn't the picture of discipline behind the plate, there's still a lot that can go wrong.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 17, 2018, 12:18:14 PM
Part of it has certainly been good pitching, though I think there were some hitters with really terrible approaches last night that led to some really bad ABs. Regardless of outcome, the guys that I would say had a good plan they executed in their ABs were Justin Turner and Ryan Braun. Most of the other guys (especially on the Dodgers) seemed like they were trying to hit a HR every single time.
That is noticeable in MLB.
In the AL the difference between the Yankees approach and the Astros approach is very noticeable when you watch them back to back for several days. The Yankees are still swinging from the heels on 0-2 pitches while the Astros hitters are just getting warmed up. They shorten the swing, foul pitches off, work the count, don't chase outside the zone (with a few exceptions) and take the ball the other way. Much tougher to face a lineup like that.
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 17, 2018, 11:57:57 AM
Brewers don't play the Yankee's next year, so it would have to be this series. That being said, absolutely no, do not throw at him, Dodgers line-up is good enough without giving free bases. I don't want to essentially reward a player for being dirty. If you really want to get him back, sit em down.
I'll be shocked if Manny goes to the Yankees.
I think Philly is the big fave with LA next.
Quote from: Benny B on October 17, 2018, 01:49:50 PM
Counsell is already on the record that he despises sac bunting (bunting for a hit or squeeze is ok)... I don't know how much of that has to do with the fact that the Brewers seem to struggle in the bunting opportunities they've had this year (in over 300 games, Arcia only has 3 sac bunts), but with the way Arcia had been hitting in the Postseason, and given LA's late-inning prowess in the first three games, I think Counsell going for a crooked number in the 7th was the right move.
I simply hate giving up the out, just about always. And that's doubly so with a guy who had been hitting well. But I'd have been at least tempted to bunt there.
See ... I'm already softening my stance on this. I guess I don't really blame CC for letting Arcia hit. Would have been nice if Arcia had taken the ball the other way.
Go Brewers!
Quote from: Jockey on October 17, 2018, 02:38:28 PM
I'll be shocked if Manny goes to the Yankees.
I think Philly is the big fave with LA next.
I could see Philly, but I'm not sure where he would fit in LA with Seager coming back. Manny has said that wherever he goes he wants to play SS, not 3rd. I just think that NY will pull a 2008 CC and just outbid and overpay for him.
Great move by Counsell to start Miley for one batter. That means the Dodgers used their right-handed hitting lineup only to have to face a right-handed pitcher after one batter.
We'll see how it works out.
Quote from: Jockey on October 17, 2018, 05:49:35 PM
Great move by Counsell to start Miley for one batter. That means the Dodgers used their right-handed hitting lineup only to have to face a right-handed pitcher after one batter.
We'll see how it works out.
They had more of their righty lineup in than their lefty lineup.
Brewers have had chances all series and haven't taken advantage. Could've easily won in 5 but just not taking advantage.
Fun while it lasted. Not going to a WS when your best offensive player is your 8 hole hitter.
With the way the brewers bats are going the 2-1 lead will probably be big enough. Yelich has another opportunity for an mvp moment and couldn't get it done. He's lost.
Counsell outthinks himself and it might cost them this game
Quote from: GB Warrior on October 17, 2018, 06:18:21 PM
Counsell outthinks himself and it might cost them this game
What did Counsell outthink?
Quote from: wadesworld on October 17, 2018, 06:19:31 PM
What did Counsell outthink?
Went against what he's done for the last month - don't let guys go 3rd time through the order
2 run deficit feels insurmountable at this point.
Know how the Cubs and Rockies felt previously....
This is starting to feel like 2011.
2 games at home now.
C'mon, Crew fans ... was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
The offense has been poor, especially in key situations. Missing Vaunted Player
But back to Milwaukee they go and perhaps they can force a game 7. I still contend the series killer was game 1, up 5-1 and you bring in Hader. No need. Use him for 1 inning, not 3. If the Brewers take game 2, which they had in their control, this is a totally different series.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 17, 2018, 10:10:24 PM
The offense has been poor, especially in key situations. Missing Vaunted Player
But back to Milwaukee they go and perhaps they can force a game 7. I still contend the series killer was game 1, up 5-1 and you bring in Hader. No need. Use him for 1 inning, not 3. If the Brewers take game 2, which they had in their control, this is a totally different series.
The series would be over had Hader not gone 3 scoreless in a 1 run Brewers win. You can continue to contend that all you want, but you're wrong.
nm
Quote from: wadesworld on October 17, 2018, 10:35:08 PM
The series would be over had Hader not gone 3 scoreless in a 1 run Brewers win. You can continue to contend that all you want, but you're wrong.
Impossible for you to know this, for the same reason it is impossible for me to know if I am right. So, I won't say you are wrong because I don't know, but you dig in to your opinion all you wish as if it is factual.
Last night, why pitch to him when Grandahl was on deck, pitcher behind him? Odd managing choices in my opinion.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 17, 2018, 11:17:24 PM
Impossible for you to know this, for the same reason it is impossible for me to know if I am right. So, I won't say you are wrong because I don't know, but you dig in to your opinion all you wish as if it is factual.
Last night, why pitch to him when Grandahl was on deck, pitcher behind him? Odd managing choices in my opinion.
Using Hader for 3 was the right decision.
Pitching to Bellinger was the wrong decision.
Just my opinions, of course.
Brewers back at home needing a 2 game winning streak. Is it likely? No. But to quote Lloydslegs, it is doable.
Brewers had a 90% chance to win the game when Hader came in, in game 1. It was really low leverage compared to all of the pitchers in Game 1 and 2. I guess it makes sense, but I would think you would want your best pitcher in a higher leverage situation.
Quote from: MUDPT on October 18, 2018, 07:31:37 AM
Brewers had a 90% chance to win the game when Hader came in, in game 1. It was really low leverage compared to all of the pitchers in Game 1 and 2. I guess it makes sense, but I would think you would want your best pitcher in a higher leverage situation.
Don't get me started on win probabilities. They only say what has happened in the past, not what will happen in the future.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on October 18, 2018, 08:01:50 AM
Don't get me started on win probabilities. They only say what has happened in the past, not what will happen in the future.
Yup.
People can claim that the Brewers didn't need to throw Hader in game one. Those same people also ignore that the only pitcher that came in over the final 2 innings after Hader pitched 3 scoreless that did not give up a run was Jeremy Jeffress...who went 1/3 of an inning and gave up 2 hits.
One surefire way to lose a best of 7 series is to have a 4 run lead going to the bullpens having faced the other team's ace in game 1 and give the game away. I literally have no idea how anybody could be so clueless to say the Brewers made the wrong move by pitching Hader like they did in game one. If the Brewers don't win that one this series is over, maybe even a sweep.
Argue all you want over Brewers pitching, but Yelich and Aguliar have been the biggest disappointments in last four games.
Yelich is 3 for 16 with zero RBIs, one hit a bunt with the shift on.
Aguilar is 3 for 15 with zero RBIs
I don't have stats for RISP, but they both have left a boatload on base. Last game second and third with one out and they both struck out. They need to get it going in last two games.
Aguilar is something like 0 for 14 with RISP and has left about 16 runners on during this series. He's been really sub-par, and your clean-up man cannot have that poor of a performance in a 7-game series.
Yelich looks lost at the plate right now.
Quote from: nyg on October 18, 2018, 08:58:07 AM
Argue all you want over Brewers pitching, but Yelich and Aguliar have been the biggest disappointments in last four games.
Yelich is 3 for 16 with zero RBIs, one hit a bunt with the shift on.
Aguilar is 3 for 15 with zero RBIs
I don't have stats for RISP, but they both have left a boatload on base. Last game second and third with one out and they both struck out. They need to get it going in last two games.
Moustakis even worse. Hitting is at premium, which is why when you have 5-1 leads you don't waste your best asset for 3 innings keeping him out of the next game.
Quote from: nyg on October 18, 2018, 08:58:07 AM
Argue all you want over Brewers pitching, but Yelich and Aguliar have been the biggest disappointments in last four games.
Yelich is 3 for 16 with zero RBIs, one hit a bunt with the shift on.
Aguilar is 3 for 15 with zero RBIs
I don't have stats for RISP, but they both have left a boatload on base. Last game second and third with one out and they both struck out. They need to get it going in last two games.
Reminds me of Soriano and Aramis Ramirez in Cubbies' back-to-back playoff appearances in 2007 and 2008. Neither of them - especially "Rammie" - could hit their way out of a paper bag.
Ramirez was dubbed "Mr. Clutch" by some in the cloying Chicago media because he had some regular-season game-winning hits over the years. But his record in the team's biggest games was horrific. He sucked in the last three games of the 2003 NLCS debacle, blew during the 2004 collapse and, as previously said, was invisible in the 2007 and 2008 playoffs. In his last 9 postseason games as a Cub, the team's main run-producer had exactly 0 RBI.
Some guys have the mental toughness to excel when it counts most, and some don't. Rammie clearly didn't.
It's too early to know if Yelich has what it takes. One postseason is not a good sample size, and he carried the Brewers into this position during September - essentially a month of playoff games.
I'd love to see the Brewers' bats get hot again on Fri and Sat. Sudden turnarounds like that happen all the time.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming of chicos2 and wades reliving old, silly, impossible-to-prove debates.
Games 1-4 were over. The odds of the Brewers winning yesterday's game with Kershaw in the mound were already slim. Throwing Miley out there for one batter was the right move because your odds of winning game 6 rise exponentially with Miley on the mound. In addition the entire bullpen except the three lowest leverage guys (Burnes, Cedeno, Soria) will be on at least two days' rest going into Game 6, which means they will most likely also be available for Game 7. While the same can be said for the Dodgers (throwing a 1/3 of an inning notwithstanding), the upper end of the Brewers' pen - when on their game - is a step or two ahead of the Dodgers, especially at home.
I hate to say it, but even though the players did miss a few golden opportunities to win that game, Counsell essentially hung the team out to dry yesterday. And in doing so, set the team up to win two games.
In the alternative, Counsell could have burnt through the pen yesterday and/or got a couple innings from Miley, and they most likely still lose the game with the bats being asleep as they were. In which case, kiss Game 6 - and the series - goodbye.
Counsell isn't managing to win games, he's managing to win a series. And he's in perfect shape to do exactly that.
What Counsell is doing is nannying managing this team to win. What all y'all naysayers and second-guessers are saying is that you want Counsell to manage "not to lose."
[EDIT: damn autocorrect]
Quote from: MU82 on October 18, 2018, 09:28:57 AM
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming of chicos2 and wades reliving old, silly, impossible-to-prove debates.
Already proven. We saw what happened after Hader's 3 scoreless innings. 4 pitchers, each one of them giving up at least 1 run except for Jeffress, who gave up 2 hits in 1/3 of an inning. Chicos thinks the Brewers would've won that game without using Hader, or with trying to get an extra 2 scoreless innings out of the pen. Entirely laughable. This series is over if the Brewers had tried to do that. Hader needed to throw 2 scoreless innings minimum, and at that point he's unavailable for game 2 the next day, so you ride him as long as you can. Really there was no decision to make. That's as easy as it gets for a postseason managerial decision.
Quote from: Benny B on October 18, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Counsell isn't managing to win games, he's managing to win a series. And he's in perfect shape to do exactly that.
What Counsell is doing is nannying this team to win. What all y'all naysayers and second-guessers are saying is that you want Counsell to manage "not to lose."
Have absolutely no issue with how he's handled the pitching staff. It's been outstanding.
I do quibble with him not walking Bellinger on Tuesday, less so with Barnes yesterday. I'll be interested to see if he mixes up the lineup at all. I'd give Shaw a start for Moose at this point.
There's no way he should start against Ryu, but Granderson has made solid contact in all his appearances thus far, and his plate discipline is excellent. If Aguilar continues to struggle, is there a point where you move Braun to first and give Granderson a few more ABs? Aguilar's production has been non-existent, and with Granderson, you know that you'll get at least some discipline.
That AL game was wild from the 1st to the last out.
Just bought my WS tickets. Saddest I've ever been shelling out that kind of money (other than my wedding, HEYO)
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 18, 2018, 10:37:23 AM
That AL game was wild from the 1st to the last out.
That was fantastic October baseball.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 18, 2018, 10:37:23 AM
That AL game was wild from the 1st to the last out.
Agreed. What an effen play at the end.
Shows you the slim margin of victory/defeat sometimes. If that ball hits the ground 2 inches in front of his glove and then skips past him, Astros win. Instead, he makes a catch that will be on highlight reels forever. Aside from Ners, none of us will ever be immortalized that way.
Quote from: MU82 on October 18, 2018, 11:50:16 AM
Agreed. What an effen play at the end.
Shows you the slim margin of victory/defeat sometimes. If that ball hits the ground 2 inches in front of his glove and then skips past him, Astros win. Instead, he makes a catch that will be on highlight reels forever. Aside from Ners, none of us will ever be immortalized that way.
Man, Benintendi catch was 1:15 AM here, and I had to get up for work at 6. I was so wired after the game I couldn't sleep until after 2:30. So many great plays. Bregman robbing Pearce and saving a run in the 3rd, Reddick's catch in the ninth, Betts throw in the 8th and Benintendi's catch to end the game were all fantastic. Then there were boneheaded plays like Correa just not touching second base and not getting the DP allowing for another two out run to score later. All the two out RBIs from both teams, Bradley making the Astros pay when Springer just missed Vazquez double (not to mention the interference call). Kimbrel not having it again and again somehow escaping. Game had everything. Both teams using old fashioned two strike approach, so many more hits than strikeouts. Just a fun, fun nerve-wracking game.
If the World Series ends up as Milwaukee vs. Boston, do we call it the "bubbler" series?
Quote from: Benny B on October 18, 2018, 04:37:19 PM
If the World Series ends up as Milwaukee vs. Boston, do we call it the "bubbler" series?
The Battle of the Heads: Cheddars vs. Chowders
Quote from: wadesworld on October 18, 2018, 09:40:26 AM
Already proven. We saw what happened after Hader's 3 scoreless innings. 4 pitchers, each one of them giving up at least 1 run except for Jeffress, who gave up 2 hits in 1/3 of an inning. Chicos thinks the Brewers would've won that game without using Hader, or with trying to get an extra 2 scoreless innings out of the pen. Entirely laughable. This series is over if the Brewers had tried to do that. Hader needed to throw 2 scoreless innings minimum, and at that point he's unavailable for game 2 the next day, so you ride him as long as you can. Really there was no decision to make. That's as easy as it gets for a postseason managerial decision.
Nothing proven. You have no way of knowing how the other pitchers pitch against different hitters than they pitched against, and in earlier innings than they did. Different circumstances, different matchups. Impossible to know.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 18, 2018, 09:42:31 PM
Nothing proven. You have no way of knowing how the other pitchers pitch against different hitters than they pitched against, and in earlier innings than they did. Different circumstances, different matchups. Impossible to know.
Okay. Well you think in a game that the Brewers won by one run having gotten 3 scoreless innings from Hader that they should've left Hader in the bullpen despite the fact that they had 4 pitchers pitch after Hader did and every single one with the exception of Jeffress, who gave up 2 hits in 1/3 of an inning, gave up at least one run.
But sure. The Crew would've been totally fine giving those pitchers 3 extra innings to get knocked around.
You're wrong bud.
Thank God Counsell knows a lot more than you do or this series would never have come back to Milwaukee.
Full disclosure that I've never liked the Astros, going back to when they owned the Cubs in the NL Central, and I had to watch the Killer B's and Lima Time! and all that jazz.
Keuchel said during Spring Training that they won't suffer the World Series hangover and that they're "not like the Cubs." I know it's very petty on my part, but there's a little bit of schadenfreude this morning after Houston lost in 5 games of the Championship Series, just like last year's Cubs.
Quote from: Benny B on October 18, 2018, 04:37:19 PM
If the World Series ends up as Milwaukee vs. Boston, do we call it the "bubbler" series?
(Former) Braves vs. (Former) Braves?
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on October 19, 2018, 09:33:12 AM
Full disclosure that I've never liked the Astros, going back to when they owned the Cubs in the NL Central, and I had to watch the Killer B's and Lima Time! and all that jazz.
Keuchel said during Spring Training that they won't suffer the World Series hangover and that they're "not like the Cubs." I know it's very petty on my part, but there's a little bit of schadenfreude this morning after Houston lost in 5 games of the Championship Series, just like last year's Cubs.
Any team that loses two postseason games where their opponent starts David Price does not belong in the World Series. They did suffer a World Series hangover a little, but mostly Correa and Altuve were not near 100% and the Red Sox were able to score runs, which may have been the result of the accumulative effect of long postseasons back to back. If the Sox get offense from 2B, 3B, CF and C, which they haven't a lot of this year, they are a tough out.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 18, 2018, 09:47:55 PM
Okay. Well you think in a game that the Brewers won by one run having gotten 3 scoreless innings from Hader that they should've left Hader in the bullpen despite the fact that they had 4 pitchers pitch after Hader did and every single one with the exception of Jeffress, who gave up 2 hits in 1/3 of an inning, gave up at least one run.
But sure. The Crew would've been totally fine giving those pitchers 3 extra innings to get knocked around.
You're wrong bud.
Thank God Counsell knows a lot more than you do or this series would never have come back to Milwaukee.
I think you wasted Hader up 5-1 so you couldn't use him in the second game. Each situation is different. You keep saying I'm wrong, you have no way of predicting what would have happened nor do I. It is like saying if Markus wasn't on the bench, he would have been in and hit a 3 at some random time in the game. It is nothing more than guesswork, but you keep bringing it as fact.
On one hand you argue this is how they have handled the team all year long, yet you ignore that it was the most pitches he ever threw and only once had gone 3 innings. Which is it? When one gets to the post season, you are supposed to manage differently. This is why starters become relievers. He seemed so intent on winning that first game, he won the battle and might lose the war.
Why not put someone else in when up 5-1 to see what they would do? If they give up a few, fine put in Hader. You are playing with house money. He didn't even give that opportunity to play out, and burned his best asset for game two.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 19, 2018, 10:13:15 AM
I think you wasted Hader up 5-1 so you couldn't use him in the second game. Each situation is different. You keep saying I'm wrong, you have no way of predicting what would have happened nor do I. It is like saying if Markus wasn't on the bench, he would have been in and hit a 3 at some random time in the game. It is nothing more than guesswork, but you keep bringing it as fact.
On one hand you argue this is how they have handled the team all year long, yet you ignore that it was the most pitches he ever threw and only once had gone 3 innings. Which is it? When one gets to the post season, you are supposed to manage differently. This is why starters become relievers. He seemed so intent on winning that first game, he won the battle and might lose the war.
Why not put someone else in when up 5-1 to see what they would do? If they give up a few, fine put in Hader. You are playing with house money. He didn't even give that opportunity to play out, and burned his best asset for game two.
You are not playing with house money. You are making sure you don't blow a game that your opponent had their best starting pitcher on the mound, an all time great. I am not guessing. Literally what happened was 4 pitchers pitched after Hader's 3 scoreless innings. 3 of them gave up at least 1 run. The 4th gave up 2 hits and got 1 out. You think the Brewers could've survived 3 more innings with those guys in. You're wrong. We saw it play out game 1. And game 2. The Brewers lose game 1 if Counsell doesn't use Hader how he did. Hader was getting the next day off, used exactly how he was all season long to be one of the most dominant relievers in the history of baseball for a season. The only difference was since he was getting the next day off anyway, and they had a travel day following that, they rode him as long as possible. And thank God they did because they're coming home with a chance to win 2 home games to go to the WS. Had they not used him as they did game 1, this series never gets back to Milwaukee.
Wades and Chicos in a battle to see who can get the last word in. Love it!
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on October 19, 2018, 10:40:05 AM
Wades and Chicos in a battle to see who can get the last word in. Love it!
The 4 runs over the final 2 innings given up by the 4 pitchers Chicos thinks the Brewers should've used for an extra 3 innings in game 1 got the last word in.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 19, 2018, 10:50:58 AM
The 4 runs over the final 2 innings given up by the 4 pitchers Chicos thinks the Brewers should've used for an extra 3 innings in game 1 got the last word in.
For the record, I agree with you Wades. I think it's hilarious that Chicos argues that your opinion can't be proven while his opinion is equally unprovable.
The difference is Wades bases his opinion on fact while Chicos is pure conjecture.
I think CC has played this series as well as anyone could have hoped. For my money, only two of his decisions have provided an opportunity for second guessing. One is pitching to Bellinger at the end of Game 4 and the other is leaving Woodruff in for the 6th in Game 5. And neither of those are remotely close to being clear cut. Guerra got within one strike of getting Bellinger out and after Game 4, CC didn't have a lot of bullpen options after Woodruff and the bats just weren't going to come alive in LA.
The only move I have a serious issue with was not bunting with Arcia when Pina was on 2nd and no outs in the 7th inning of game 4. I get why Craig didn't, you've already used some bench players, Pina might not be able to make it up to 3rd as the slowest runner on the Brewers not named Kratz, and Arcia has 3 total sacrifice bunts. But I'd have pinch ran Hernan and given Orlando 2 shots to get it down. Then Kratz catches the rest of the game. Guy on 3rd with 1 out and Granderson coming up, you score that run and then you go to some combination of Hader/Knebel/Jeffress/Soria to get you the last 9 outs and a 3-1 series lead.
Other than that I would've maybe made some different decisions personally (don't send Jeffress back out to start a second inning of work when he already struggled mightily through a first inning of work, following a night where he had already struggled, in game 2, pitching to Belinger, etc.) but those are coin flip decisions.
He's got the Brewers at home needing to win 2 games to go to a World Series with a Playoff starting pitching staff of Jhoulys Chacin, Wade Miley, Gio Gonzolez, and Brandon Woodruff. Pretty incredible, really.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 19, 2018, 01:06:36 PM
The only move I have a serious issue with was not bunting with Arcia when Pina was on 2nd and no outs in the 7th inning of game 4. I get why Craig didn't, you've already used some bench players, Pina might not be able to make it up to 3rd as the slowest runner on the Brewers not named Kratz, and Arcia has 3 total sacrifice bunts. But I'd have pinch ran Hernan and given Orlando 2 shots to get it down. Then Kratz catches the rest of the game. Guy on 3rd with 1 out and Granderson coming up, you score that run and then you go to some combination of Hader/Knebel/Jeffress/Soria to get you the last 9 outs and a 3-1 series lead.
Other than that I would've maybe made some different decisions personally (don't send Jeffress back out to start a second inning of work when he already struggled mightily through a first inning of work, following a night where he had already struggled, in game 2, pitching to Belinger, etc.) but those are coin flip decisions.
He's got the Brewers at home needing to win 2 games to go to a World Series with a Playoff starting pitching staff of Jhoulys Chacin, Wade Miley, Gio Gonzolez, and Brandon Woodruff. Pretty incredible, really.
I had gone to bed so thanks for the specifics on the bunt situation. Was the pitcher still hitting in the 9 hole? I think I agree with you that trying to scratch out a run there might have been a good move. Too bad Broxton wasn't on the 25 for that. I'm not sure about the analytics of 2nd with no outs vs. 3rd with one but I'm not going to overly criticize Couns because the numbers might say the former. The man has pulled out all the stops. The Dodgers are simply deeper. And yet we're still very much in this.
Mae bee dey oughta pull Miley after 5 pitches tanite again, hey?
It's incredible what this team can do when the top of the lineup get on base and the heart of the line up can get a base hit
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 19, 2018, 08:29:33 PM
It's incredible what this any team can do when the top of the lineup get on base and the heart of the line up can get a base hit
FIFY
One more, baby!
Damn, Burnes had some sexy pitches tonight.
Gotta think everyone but Burnes and Miley will be available for tomorrow. Maybe not Knebel. Chacin may only be allowed to go three innings.
Counsell learned something from game 1. That is the way to manage the bullpen.
Game 1, brought in Hader in 5th inning despite up 5-1. Wasted asset. Bad move.
Tonight, up 5-2 in the 5th inning, he holds tight. Bullpen comes through. Hader available for 3 tomorrow.
Win the war, not the battle.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/mPIA4KZVXv0ty/giphy.gif)
I'll take hader on normal use, or even 3 innings over Kershaw in relief.
Also hope Grandal starts.
What a night tomorrow. Brewers On FS1. Oregon/Washington State on FOX. As Gameday going to Pullman for the first time ever. The original Gameday member Tim Brando calling it.
Sorry, got off track. Just didn't think this moment could come for the Brewers. Gives me chills that the Brewers are a game away from the World Series.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 19, 2018, 11:20:57 PM
Counsell learned something from game 1. That is the way to manage the bullpen.
Game 1, brought in Hader in 5th inning despite up 5-1. Wasted asset. Bad move.
Tonight, up 5-2 in the 5th inning, he holds tight. Bullpen comes through. Hader available for 3 tomorrow.
Win the war, not the battle.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/mPIA4KZVXv0ty/giphy.gif)
You've been wrong all along. Might as well continue with the false narrative.
Series never gets back to Milwaukee for game 6 if Counsel doesn't manage game 1 how he does.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 20, 2018, 01:12:06 AM
You've been wrong all along. Might as well continue with the false narrative.
Series never gets back to Milwaukee for game 6 if Counsel doesn't manage game 1 how he does.
There's no reason Hader couldn't have come in (game 1), in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th in higher leverage situations. And win probability is updated with every batter. It isn't looking back.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 19, 2018, 11:21:20 PM
Also hope Grandal starts.
Dave Roberts has been stoic no matter what's going on in the game except with Grandal's latest fielding misadventure yesterday. I wonder how long into the offseason he lasts with the Dodgers?
Quote from: MUDPT on October 20, 2018, 07:06:07 AM
There's no reason Hader couldn't have come in (game 1), in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th in higher leverage situations. And win probability is updated with every batter. It isn't looking back.
So be reactive instead of proactive when you have a lead in game 1 of the NLCS facing one of the greatest pitchers ever? Sure, I guess. That's the first thing I think I'd want to do. Give my opponent momentum immediately in the series.
We saw it play out. 4 pitchers came out of the pen in game 1 after Hader's 3 scoreless innings over the final 2 innings of the game. 3 gave up at least 1 run. The fourth gave up 2 hits and got a single out. They had a runner 90 feet away from tying the game up...even with Hader having gone 3 scoreless innings.
How long would you and Chicos suggest the Brewers should've waited to use Hader in game 1? Tying run is on deck? 2 run game? Wait until the 8th inning regardless? Only throw him one inning each game?
When you're in the Playoffs you can't wait around to see if maybe your lesser players can hold a lead. When you have Kershaw on the line for a loss in game 1, you step on the throat. Hader hadn't pitched in 5 days, and even that was a 7 pitch outing. He was pitching game 1. He had a historically good season out of the pen pitching one night and taking one night off. So Counsell, thankfully, rode him game 1 knowing he had to work, the Crew had to close that game out, and he was going to have game 2 and a travel day to rest. A really great job.
Came in with a game plan and here we are, one home game to go to a World Series. Amazing.
I think everyone except Miley is available tonight. And I'm sure Chacin is going more than 3 assuming he's on his game. I'd anticipate him for 5+ followed by Knebel, Jeffress and Hader. It would be great if the 3 relievers only need to get somewhere between 9-11 outs. If they need a few more, my next choice would be Woody or possibly Soria.
Let me add that getting Jeffress in a little earlier seemed to work for him last night. He was on his edge, not over it. And his stuff was absolutely electric. Sets him up well for tonight.
And how 'bout Burnes? Kid wasn't even on the 40 out of Phoenix. But has been lights out since his July promotion. He'll have a regular rotation turn next year; just like Freddy.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 20, 2018, 07:56:24 AM
Dave Roberts has been stoic no matter what's going on in the game except with Grandal's latest fielding misadventure yesterday. I wonder how long into the offseason he lasts with the Dodgers?
Monday?
Quote from: MUDPT on October 20, 2018, 07:06:07 AM
There's no reason Hader couldn't have come in (game 1), in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th in higher leverage situations. And win probability is updated with every batter. It isn't looking back.
That is correct, but the guy is digging in and cannot admit he is wrong. Fortunately for the Brewers, Counsell has learned and not as stubborn as Wadesworld is. This series could be over right now, but with the Brewers already on the way to the World Series.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 20, 2018, 08:26:37 AM
So be reactive instead of proactive when you have a lead in game 1 of the NLCS facing one of the greatest pitchers ever? Sure, I guess. That's the first thing I think I'd want to do. Give my opponent momentum immediately in the series.
We saw it play out. 4 pitchers came out of the pen in game 1 after Hader's 3 scoreless innings over the final 2 innings of the game. 3 gave up at least 1 run. The fourth gave up 2 hits and got a single out. They had a runner 90 feet away from tying the game up...even with Hader having gone 3 scoreless innings.
How long would you and Chicos suggest the Brewers should've waited to use Hader in game 1? Tying run is on deck? 2 run game? Wait until the 8th inning regardless? Only throw him one inning each game?
When you're in the Playoffs you can't wait around to see if maybe your lesser players can hold a lead. When you have Kershaw on the line for a loss in game 1, you step on the throat. Hader hadn't pitched in 5 days, and even that was a 7 pitch outing. He was pitching game 1. He had a historically good season out of the pen pitching one night and taking one night off. So Counsell, thankfully, rode him game 1 knowing he had to work, the Crew had to close that game out, and he was going to have game 2 and a travel day to rest. A really great job.
Came in with a game plan and here we are, one home game to go to a World Series. Amazing.
Modified his game plan, fortunately, and here they are with a chance to win it all. One could argue if he didn't blow it in game one, they would already be on their way to Boston with last night's game the clincher. John Smoltz has been correct all along to question game one's move.
Yesterday's game setup the same way, he didn't make the mistake he made in game one. Didn't panic and overshoot, and look at where they are. You continue to incorrectly say that what happened after Hader left would have happened if their positions of pitching were changed. How someone with even average intelligence can do this is eye opening. If you were to continue with this line of thinking, then outcomes in life would always be the same. But we know in the real world they are not. Baseball or any sport isn't that predictable. Even if you played the game out the exact same way 100 times with the same pitching changes, the outcomes would not be the same, so why do you insist on your argument? It's why a guy taking 100 shots from the same spot on the floor doesn't make them all, because nothing in sports (or life) is that consistent.
Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2018, 08:45:12 AM
Let me add that getting Jeffress in a little earlier seemed to work for him last night. He was on his edge, not over it. And his stuff was absolutely electric. Sets him up well for tonight.
Agreed. He wasn't hyperventilating as he had been in the earlier in the series and his breaking stuff stayed down in the strike zone.
What a missed opportunity for the Brewers. if only Chicos was the manager they would have swept already.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 20, 2018, 10:11:18 AM
Agreed. He wasn't hyperventilating as he had been in the earlier in the series and his breaking stuff stayed down in the strike zone.
Exactly! That was my point earlier, some of the guys that pitched at the back end in game 1 would have done better, different situation in the middle innings then the final innings. Counsell is learning, and that's good for the Brewers.
Front row Amy was on her A game last night, as well.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 20, 2018, 10:15:17 AM
Exactly! That was my point earlier, some of the guys that pitched at the back end in game 1 would have done better, different situation in the middle innings then the final innings. Counsell is learning, and that's good for the Brewers.
Chicos just shut the F up!!
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 20, 2018, 10:15:17 AM
Exactly! That was my point earlier, some of the guys that pitched at the back end in game 1 would have done better, different situation in the middle innings then the final innings. Counsell is learning, and that's good for the Brewers.
Wait. So we don't know how the game would've played out...but we know how the game would've played out.
God I love Chicos. You make MUScoop great again bud.
Brewers didn't need Hader to pitch game 1. They would've survived 3 more innings with guys who each gave up at least 1 run or gave up 2 hits to getting a single out. In a game the Brewers won by 1 and we saw how the pitchers Chicos says should've pitched over Hader, we can't say they would've pitched the same way for 3 extra innings, but we can certainly say the Brewers win game 1!
In reality, games 1 and 2 saw every pitcher Chicos claims would've rolled through an extra 3 innings of work get lit up. But we can't say that we know they'd continue to get lit up, everything would've been totally different because only Chicos, in his alternate reality, knows what the future held!
Lol.
PS Regarding my claim that you are a Kansas alum. Maybe each of your 3 personalities has a degree from a different school and when you were responding it wasn't that personality's moment in time. Lol. I'd say the same about each of your 3 personalities having a different username here to get around your bannings, but that'd make it like 14 usernames.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on October 20, 2018, 10:16:01 AM
Front row Amy was on her A game last night, as well.
Disagree. More like a Double D
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on October 20, 2018, 10:16:01 AM
Front row Amy was on her A game last night, as well.
Wearing the hot pink to overshadow the Marlins' guy in orange.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 19, 2018, 11:20:57 PM
Counsell learned something from game 1. That is the way to manage the bullpen.
Game 1, brought in Hader in 5th inning despite up 5-1. Wasted asset. Bad move.
Tonight, up 5-2 in the 5th inning, he holds tight. Bullpen comes through. Hader available for 3 tomorrow.
Win the war, not the battle.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/mPIA4KZVXv0ty/giphy.gif)
He didn't "learn" anything. Game 1 was intentionally a bull pen game. He'd do the exact same thing if he had it over.
Seriously, can you two take your argument somewhere else? Like a private PM. Nobody else here gives a damn. We understand your disagreement as your positions have been reiterated ad nauseam. Some of us would simply like to talk a little baseball during what is a high water mark in the 50 year history of our franchise. I know there's an ignore button but please don't force all of us to refresh our memory as to how to do it. Thanks in advance.
Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2018, 10:56:11 AM
Seriously, can you two take your argument somewhere else? Like a private PM. Nobody else here gives a damn. We understand your disagreement as your positions have been reiterated ad nauseam. Some of us would simply like to talk a little baseball during what is a high water mark in the 50 year history of our franchise. I know there's an ignore button but please don't force all of us to refresh our memory as to how to do it. Thanks in advance.
For the love of God +1.
It's like when that one idiot keeps ranting on the merits of Lebron. No one wants to read that crap.
Crean sucks
Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2018, 10:56:11 AM
Seriously, can you two take your argument somewhere else? Like a private PM. Nobody else here gives a damn. We understand your disagreement as your positions have been reiterated ad nauseam. Some of us would simply like to talk a little baseball during what is a high water mark in the 50 year history of our franchise. I know there's an ignore button but please don't force all of us to refresh our memory as to how to do it. Thanks in advance.
honestly a few people needed to be banned from this thread a while ago.
Quote from: forgetful on October 20, 2018, 11:34:46 AM
For the love of God +1.
It's like when that one idiot keeps ranting on the merits of Lebron. No one wants to read that crap.
+2
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on October 20, 2018, 10:16:01 AM
Front row Amy was on her A game last night, as well.
Machado certainly seemed to be thrown off his game by the
boobs boos
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on October 20, 2018, 10:16:01 AM
Front row Amy was on her A game last night, as well.
i was at game 1 last friday and there was a constant stream(no pun) of "fans" going down(again, no pun) there to have there picture taken with her. i've heard she has her own bobble umm, head as well. pretty strategic seats to say the least, eyn'er?
good thing(or not) the game is indoors tonight ;)
They didn't even let Chacin go three innings!
Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 20, 2018, 04:23:20 PM
i was at game 1 last friday and there was a constant stream(no pun) of "fans" going down(again, no pun) there to have there picture taken with her. i've heard she has her own bobble umm, head as well. pretty strategic seats to say the least, eyn'er?
good thing(or not) the game is indoors tonight ;)
They were undoubtedly going down there to get their picture with Marlin's Man, not Front Row Amy.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 20, 2018, 08:22:33 PM
They were undoubtedly going down there to get their picture with Marlin's Man, not Front Row Amy.
Marlins man is the 3rd boob.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 20, 2018, 08:40:52 PM
Marlins man is the 3rd boob.
Was at the game last night. Walked around the 100 level concourse a while before first pitch and down the third base line it was completely backed up with people. Saw 2 security guys in red stopping people from walking through. Thought there was some celebrity entering the "founders suites" or whatever they have down there. Got up to them and nope, it was them stopping people from walking through the concourse so people could line up and get their picture with Marlin's Man. Such a joke.
Taylor's catch might've just finished off the brewers.
Cedeno???
Dagger...damn
Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 20, 2018, 08:57:16 PM
Taylor's catch might've just finished off the brewers.
Puig just finished them. That was a missile launch.
Jeffress not so good in mid innings lately, he's a closer mentality.
Maybe Hader one more inning? Shoulda, coulda woulda.
Still four to go, but Brewers need to get those guys who have been on second base home.
Shame. Great season. Won the battle, lost the war.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 20, 2018, 09:16:55 PM
Shame. Great season. Won the battle, lost the war.
Wouldn't have even gotten to game 6. The guys you wanted throwing more innings continue to give up runs. You know what they say about the definition of insanity. Then again, you've never left any doubt about that here lol. Couldn't make it any more clear Chicos.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 20, 2018, 09:16:55 PM
Shame. Great season. Won the battle, lost the war.
Seriously, STFU.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 20, 2018, 09:16:55 PM
Shame. Great season. Won the battle, lost the war.
Sciocia tell you that?
Hell of a run by the Brewers, and I really was rooting for them.
This loss will save me quite a bit of time, though, as I'll probably watch much less of the WS now.
Quote from: #UnleashTravis on October 20, 2018, 10:40:40 PM
The three of you should have 5 months ago. ::)
Glad to know I bother you so much.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 20, 2018, 10:39:50 PM
Sciocia tell you that?
Commonly said when I was at MU regarding Vietnam War. We would win most battles, but not the war. Don't recall who made it popular.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 20, 2018, 11:40:48 PM
Glad to know I bother you so much.
yeah, don't they know who you are? the guy who's been there, done that, and more, he bowls overhand, parallel parks trains,
Great season. Most will be back. Last year I caught a Spring training game on February 28th road tripping from Vegas. Think I'll do the same this winter. #Crew.
Quote from: jsglow on October 21, 2018, 08:47:28 AM
Great season. Most will be back. Last year I caught a Spring training game on February 28th road tripping from Vegas. Think I'll do the same this winter. #Crew.
I concur on the great season. Baseball much more enjoyable when there are competitive races.
I have been doing Spring Training for years. Most seasons, it is typically the most enjoyable part of the season for me. It's intimate, relaxed, and you get a view of the future. The fans or more knowledgeable, and you run into all sorts of baseball folks where you can just sit and talk with them, whether at the facilities or just being out and about.
Grabbing a beer while sitting in the sun escaping from the winter's blues helps rejuvinate the soul. I score every game which also helps me just check out.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 21, 2018, 09:09:30 AM
I concur on the great season. Baseball much more enjoyable when there are competitive races.
I have been doing Spring Training for years. Most seasons, it is typically the most enjoyable part of the season for me. It's intimate, relaxed, and you get a view of the future. The fans or more knowledgeable, and you run into all sorts of baseball folks where you can just sit and talk with them, whether at the facilities or just being out and about.
Grabbing a beer while sitting in the sun escaping from the winter's blues helps rejuvinate the soul. I score every game which also helps me just check out.
I love it. So chill. Last year I did a little loop from our home. Baseball day #1. Grand Canyon hiking day #2. Days like that are top 10%.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 21, 2018, 09:09:30 AM
I concur on the great season. Baseball much more enjoyable when there are competitive races.
I have been doing Spring Training for years. Most seasons, it is typically the most enjoyable part of the season for me. It's intimate, relaxed, and you get a view of the future. The fans or more knowledgeable, and you run into all sorts of baseball folks where you can just sit and talk with them, whether at the facilities or just being out and about.
Grabbing a beer while sitting in the sun escaping from the winter's blues helps rejuvinate the soul. I score every game which also helps me just check out.
Agree in general about spring training, though it too has become highly commercial and pricey.
Advice I like to give is to go to spring training before the games start. Watching workouts is free; one can roam the grounds and check out various groups doing their thing; many days the teams are done by noon or 1 p.m. so you're free to golf (or whatever) in the afternoons; much easier for the kiddos to get autographs; etc.
It's the most intimate, relaxing big-league baseball experience out there ... and it doesn't cost a penny.
Is Chicos invited to the Ausmus presser? Obviously Cubs fan warriorsdad isn't.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 20, 2018, 07:56:24 AM
Dave Roberts has been stoic no matter what's going on in the game except with Grandal's latest fielding misadventure yesterday. I wonder how long into the offseason he lasts with the Dodgers?
He is a free agent, so like 2 days past the WS.
Great season by the Brewers. I will always be appreciative of the way they caught and knocked off the Cubs.
<Hat Tip>
If some of their guys that look like they could be dominant starting pitchers, turn out to be even good starting pitchers, well look out.
I was hoping Milwaukee would pull it off, and I don't think I talked to one Cubs fan who was rooting against the Brewers, (once the Cubs were eliminated). They were a fun team to watch, and a great story.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on October 22, 2018, 10:22:43 AM
I was hoping Milwaukee would pull it off, and I don't think I talked to one Cubs fan who was rooting against the Brewers, (once the Cubs were eliminated). They were a fun team to watch, and a great story.
Dave Roberts is my favorite manager in the game after Francona. I found myself more pulling for wanting to see the bullpenning strategy to blow up than rooting against the Brewers.
With two gigantic markets and a Game 1 match-up of Kershaw and Sale, I thought last night would've drawn higher ratings.
http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018/10/world-series-ratings-game-one-overnights/ (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018/10/world-series-ratings-game-one-overnights/)
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on October 24, 2018, 11:56:28 AM
With two gigantic markets and a Game 1 match-up of Kershaw and Sale, I thought last night would've drawn higher ratings.
http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018/10/world-series-ratings-game-one-overnights/ (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018/10/world-series-ratings-game-one-overnights/)
Ehh its pretty standard around there. The Cub's one is huge because well, it was the Cubs.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on October 24, 2018, 11:56:28 AM
With two gigantic markets and a Game 1 match-up of Kershaw and Sale, I thought last night would've drawn higher ratings.
http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018/10/world-series-ratings-game-one-overnights/ (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018/10/world-series-ratings-game-one-overnights/)
I don't know if this downward trend will ever change for baseball, but they have to do something about the timing and more importantly the length of these games. If you live in the Eastern Time Zone you know you are going to have to go to midnight to see the finish of the game. I am as big a baseball fan as there is, and I didn't watch a lot of the games not involving my favorite team because I made the calculation that sleep was more important. I watch the World Series regardless of the participants, but if it's 5-0 in the 6th, there's a good chance I won't watch until the end.
Baseball has to decide if it is going to stay with tradition and sacrifice the TV audience, or if its going to make substantial rule changes to quicken the pace of the game. (And not simply fringe rules to quicken the pace of play.) If it were four hours for a one-game championship, I'm all in. Four hours a game for a possible seven games for two teams that I am neutral about? It just doesn't hold my interest.
Tonight I'm watching the Bucks.
I had rooting interest in the Brewers but I have little interest in this WS. I have watched a total of about 20 minutes of these first 2 games.
And I think I'm a fairly typical pro sports fan without rooting interest in either of the teams. The games are too long, the action is too little, and this felt like a Red Sox sweep even before Game 1.
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2018, 11:34:26 PM
I had rooting interest in the Brewers but I have little interest in this WS. I have watched a total of about 20 minutes of these first 2 games.
And I think I'm a fairly typical pro sports fan without rooting interest in either of the teams. The games are too long, the action is too little, and this felt like a Red Sox sweep even before Game 1.
Haven't watched a second of the WS and probably won't. Maybe sour grapes from the Brewers not making it, but Red Sox/Dodgers....meh.
crew wouldve been the tougher series for the sox. cant throw a pitcher twice through this sox lineup. the lineup is so stacked and so good at making adjustments. dodgers rely on their starters to go deep into games. dont have the bullets out of the pen.
dont think anyone was beating the sox, but i think the crew couldve at least not complained about it being cold outside.
The Red Sox are fucking stacked. The Series doesn't look like it's coming back to Boston.
I think the Sox would have handled the Brewers pretty easily too.
Game, set, match, aina?
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on October 25, 2018, 09:43:09 AM
The Red Sox are unnatural carnal knowledgeing stacked. The Series doesn't look like it's coming back to Boston.
I think it does go back to Boston. Their bullpen will let them down in Los Angeles.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 25, 2018, 09:46:04 PM
I think it does go back to Boston. Their bullpen will let them down in Los Angeles.
I do, too. Tonight is the key. LA has the pitching matchup advantage and get their lefty power bats in against Porcello, who is homer prone. Dodger Stadium a much better HR park then Fenway, which is an advantage to the Dodgers, who are better HR hitters than the Sox. Sox defense takes a hit with Martinez in right. So I figure Dodgers win tonight, split the other two and the series goes back to Boston.
Red Sox will sweep
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on October 25, 2018, 09:55:30 AM
I think the Sox would have handled the Brewers pretty easily too.
Anything can happen in a short series but I agree. Boston and Houston are the two best teams in baseball by a pretty wide margin. Brewers, Yankees, Dodgers, Indians, Cubs and A's pretty much equal in group two.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 26, 2018, 09:27:18 AM
Anything can happen in a short series but I agree. Boston and Houston are the two best teams in baseball by a pretty wide margin. Brewers, Yankees, Dodgers, Indians, Cubs and A's pretty much equal in group two.
I was surprised at the ease with which Boston dispatched the Astros.
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 26, 2018, 03:04:28 PM
I was surprised at the ease with which Boston dispatched the Astros.
That HR call by umpire was a killer for them. That game goes Astros way and who knows the outcome.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 26, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
That HR call by umpire was a killer for them. That game goes Astros way and who knows the outcome.
mmm-hmm
An interesting stat this morning. Last night's game lasted longer than the combined posted game times of the entire 1939 World Series.
I went to bed at 1am after the Dodgers tied it. Unbelievable, 18 innings. Game ended at 2:30am. I just watched the homerun on the Fox Sports App.
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on October 27, 2018, 08:15:04 AM
I went to bed at 1am after the Dodgers tied it. Unbelievable, 18 innings. Game ended at 2:30am. I just watched the homerun on the Fox Sports App.
Eovaldi was a stud. He did an amazing job yesterday. Muncy was the only guy that had a good look at him, at which I was amazed because his ABs in the extra inmimg Brewer game were terrible.
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on October 27, 2018, 08:15:04 AM
I went to bed at 1am after the Dodgers tied it. Unbelievable, 18 innings. Game ended at 2:30am. I just watched the homerun on the Fox Sports App.
I stayed up for the whole damn thing. I may have been the last viewer still watching outside of LA. Even half the Dodgers fans left.
That said, Larry King and Mary Hart were still there (and their spouses) but I was unsure if Larry was dead or alive. Also, the Marlins Man was there, sans his puppet.
I was also left to wonder after 6+ hours and with baseball's speed up the game rules, what do these umps do in the bathroom department? In the end, like a bad movie that you want to end but just hang in there hoping it gets better, the walk off was a fitting finish.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 27, 2018, 10:19:02 AM
I was also left to wonder after 6+ hours and with baseball's speed up the game rules, what do these umps do in the bathroom department? In the end, like a bad movie that you want to end but just hang in there hoping it gets better, the walk off was a fitting finish.
2:20 between innings is more than enough time to run down to the umpire locker room and pee, except for maybe the home plate guy who is probably (hopefully) wearing a cup. I've run to the john between innings. It helps when there is more than one ump, so they can keep an eye on things between innings.
I saw a quote from Cody Bellinger post-game where he said that the players weren't
allowed to pee because there were drug-testers ready to collect urine samples post game. He said the last few innings were a bit of a struggle.
Cora went all in and may have lost the war as a result. Though they were up 2-0 and that was important. Who do they pitch today? Breathed life into the Dodgers. Kinsler moment may be Buckner 2.0 when all is said and done. Or not.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 27, 2018, 11:02:49 AM
Cora went all in and may have lost the war as a result. Though they were up 2-0 and that was important. Who do they pitch today? Breathed life into the Dodgers. Kinsler moment may be Buckner 2.0 when all is said and done. Or not.
Man you sure do like to declare series over after 2 or 3 games don't you? Lot of baseball left to be played. Would have been "over" if the Dodgers lost, but it is far from over at this point.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on October 27, 2018, 10:52:00 AM
2:20 between innings is more than enough time to run down to the umpire locker room and pee, except for maybe the home plate guy who is probably (hopefully) wearing a cup. I've run to the john between innings. It helps when there is more than one ump, so they can keep an eye on things between innings.
I saw a quote from Cody Bellinger post-game where he said that the players weren't allowed to pee because there were drug-testers ready to collect urine samples post game. He said the last few innings were a bit of a struggle.
I was thinking of the other end ;)
Quote from: Its DJOver on October 27, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
Man you sure do like to declare series over after 2 or 3 games don't you? Lot of baseball left to be played. Would have been "over" if the Dodgers lost, but it is far from over at this point.
I didn't declare anything of the sort, which is why I used the word may. I'll stick to my Red Sox in 6 prediction, but they did breathe life into the Dodgers.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 27, 2018, 11:02:49 AM
Cora went all in and may have lost the war as a result. Though they were up 2-0 and that was important. Who do they pitch today? Breathed life into the Dodgers. Kinsler moment may be Buckner 2.0 when all is said and done. Or not.
So it's one outcome or the other? Way to go out on a limb
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 27, 2018, 11:17:16 AM
I didn't declare anything of the sort, which is why I used the word may. I'll stick to my Red Sox in 6 prediction, but they did breathe life into the Dodgers.
So you think Cora "lost the war" by winning in 6? Red Sox "may" have lost the war back when they lost game 2 of the ALDS. Throwing the word "may" in front of stupid assertions doesn't make it less stupid.
All the detailed bullpen planning and rotations went out the window with an 18 inning game. Eovaldi was supposed to start today.
Yeah. Chicos thinks that you may be losing the war if you use your bullpen. In an 18 inning game, you should have 6 pitchers left in your bullpen after the game. Need to keep the war in mind, not just that battle, hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 27, 2018, 11:18:31 AM
So it's one outcome or the other? Way to go out on a limb
I cannot predict the future, which is why I said may. Only Wadesworld is capable of predicting the future. The Dodgers managed their bullpen masterfully in this game, partly because they let their starter go deep. Cora bailed on a guy that had made one bad pitch and gave up only 1 run after 4 and 2/3 innings.
Quote from: WarriorDad on October 27, 2018, 02:48:10 PM
I cannot predict the future, which is why I said may. Only Wadesworld is capable of predicting the future. The Dodgers managed their bullpen masterfully in this game, partly because they let their starter go deep. Cora bailed on a guy that had made one bad pitch and gave up only 1 run after 4 and 2/3 innings.
Crazy that you are a better manager than 2 of the final 4 guys managing baseball games. How has nobody called you?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 27, 2018, 10:19:02 AM
I was also left to wonder after 6+ hours and with baseball's speed up the game rules, what do these umps do in the bathroom department? In the end, like a bad movie that you want to end but just hang in there hoping it gets better, the walk off was a fitting finish.
There are no rules to speed up the game. Twice in one of Pederson's ABs he took called pitches, and stepped out of the batter's box for over 15 seconds. Then the pitcher took over 10 seconds to get the sign at which point Peterson stepped out again for 10+ seconds. Pitcher then finally got around to getting the sign and then he backed off the mound.
Final tally? About 1 minute and 5 seconds between pitches. I switched channels at that point.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 27, 2018, 03:35:20 PM
Crazy that you are a better manager than 2 of the final 4 guys managing baseball games. How has nobody called you?
There was no answer at the hoopachicodad residence.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 27, 2018, 04:34:34 PM
There was no answer at the hoopachicodad residence.
He's too busy fighting a war while everyone else is fighting a battle.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 27, 2018, 03:35:20 PM
Crazy that you are a better manager than 2 of the final 4 guys managing baseball games. How has nobody called you?
Here I thought it was about being a sport fan, part of which is to analyze during and post game. That is what makes sports fun.
Based on all of your remarks on the NFL and talent recently, why has no NFL team called you to be a general manager?
Yelich Hank Aaron Award winner.
Hader NL Reliever of the Year winner. Imagine what he would've been able to accomplish with a manager who knew how to properly utilize him!
Quote from: tower912 on October 27, 2018, 07:41:01 AM
An interesting stat this morning. Last night's game lasted longer than the combined posted game times of the entire 1939 World Series.
That's a good one. The other fun stat I heard:
In addition to being the longest WS game ever time-wise, this was the longest WS game innings-wise. The previous record was 14 innings, which happened 3x. The first time it happened, 1916, the Red Sox beat Brooklyn 2-1. A young Boston lefty named George Herman Ruth got the complete game victory.
Yes, a 14-inning complete game. Please take every current manager to the fainting couch!
Dave Roberts has made some...interesting...decisions this evening.
I don't think they're gonna send this game to Cooperstown on the Roberts managerial highlight reel.
Quote from: MUDish on October 27, 2018, 10:34:38 PM
Dave Roberts has made some...interesting...decisions this evening.
I don't think they're gonna send this game to Cooperstown on the Roberts managerial highlight reel.
You better have consulted with Chicos on this first.
But yes.
Apparently Alex Cora was able to still have his team in position to win this thing despite losing sight of the war while focusing on the battle last night.
Chicos would've called for the back of the Dodgers bullpen tonight. Up 4 after 6? Save your bullets. You're in a war. Don't lose sight of that in the battle. Lol.
Machado tries to take out another 1st baseman.
Classy!
Quote from: Jockey on October 27, 2018, 11:06:32 PM
Machado tries to take out another 1st baseman.
Classy!
Seriously? I haven't been watching. More of the same? Pretty soon some big guy will just beat him with a bat.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 27, 2018, 10:47:07 PM
Chicos would've called for the back of the Dodgers bullpen tonight. Up 4 after 6? Save your bullets. You're in a war. Don't lose sight of that in the battle. Lol.
I thought Cora made several mistakes in game 3, but not with the pitching. Primarily manipulating substitutions so that most of his best hitters (Benintendi, Martinez, Devers, Moreland, Pearce) were all out of the game in extras, including forcing him to play at 1B a catcher who had never played 1B before. Most of the subs were made for spurious reasons (PR, shift the lineup, etc.). I also thought it was a bad idea was getting Eovaldi up during regulation. But using extensively in extra innings in game 3 actually helped the bullpen. Even though he pulled an effective Porcello too early IMO (4 2/3 innings), he only used one other bullpen guy for more than an inning (Kimbrel 4 outs) so everyone was available for game 4. Eduardo Rodriguez was better than Porcello this year, so it wasn't like he was throwing a lamb to the lions.
The Dodgers used 3 guys for two innings and another for 5 outs. So they were the ones with the tired bullpen in game 4, and it cost them as Baez wasn't available, and the other guys were not as sharp.
Quote from: MUDish on October 27, 2018, 10:34:38 PM
Dave Roberts has made some...interesting...decisions this evening.
I don't think they're gonna send this game to Cooperstown on the Roberts managerial highlight reel.
I thought his only mistake in game 4 was taking out Hill, who was dominating. Granted, that turned out to be a huge mistake. After that, I thought he picked the right guys, they just didn't deliver. He said after the game Baez was not available due to his work in game 3.
Have to say, never saw this coming out of David Price.
Also Kenley blowing 2 saves, never would have bet on that either.
So much for losing that war
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 28, 2018, 10:06:26 PM
Have to say, never saw this coming out of David Price.
Also Kenley blowing 2 saves, never would have bet on that either.
Price actually looked good in his first WS start even though his command was a little off.
Kenley really wasn't Kenley this year - and the Red Sox can really hit.
Chris Sale - good morning, good afternoon and good night!
Every series, outside of the 1 game AL Wild Card, finished with the road team celebrating this Postseason.
Seeing Manny on a knee to end the Postseason trying to hit a nobody on grand slam was a tiny consolation.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 28, 2018, 10:34:24 PM
Every series, outside of the 1 game AL Wild Card, finished with the road team celebrating this Postseason.
Seeing Manny on a knee to end the Postseason trying to hit a nobody on grand slam was a tiny consolation.
He actually tried to step on Pearce's foot last night, too. What a dirty sumbeyotch, but we already knew that. Hilarious a couple days back watching him dog it on what he thought was a HR and only making it to first on a ball off the wall when the Dodgers desperately needed to put a runner in scoring position.
Bittersweet to be a Tiger fan today.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2018/10/28/world-series-2018-detroit-tigers/1760627002/
That team, sadly, lacked team speed, defense, and a spark.
The first four games of the World Series brought the lowest ratings in four years for Fox ... though that was reflective more of the general decline in broadcast TV viewership.
Hard to believe the first part of that, what with baseball players never kneeling during the anthem.
As for the second part, yep yep. Most sports, especially the NFL, has had positive ratings relative to the rest of television programming.
Quote from: tower912 on October 29, 2018, 07:15:58 AM
Bittersweet to be a Tiger fan today.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2018/10/28/world-series-2018-detroit-tigers/1760627002/
That team, sadly, lacked team speed, defense, and a spark.
"...slick fielding of Ian Kinsler"? I beg to differ. His mishandling of a groundball gave the Red Sox their only WS loss (not to mention his 64 OPS+ with the Sox after coming over). But JD, Porcello and Price were all huge this year and in the playoffs (especially Price, who I would have been inclined to give the World Series MVP too, though Pearce was also a very good choice.)
Those Tiger teams in the first half of this decade were good enough to win it all for a four year stretch but just couldn't get over the hump. That stretch where they had Scherzer, Verlander and Sanchez atop the rotation could easily have won a championship.
Quote from: MU82 on October 29, 2018, 07:33:34 AM
The first four games of the World Series brought the lowest ratings in four years for Fox ... though that was reflective more of the general decline in broadcast TV viewership.
Hard to believe the first part of that, what with baseball players never kneeling during the anthem.
As for the second part, yep yep. Most sports, especially the NFL, has had positive ratings relative to the rest of television programming.
Baseball has cashed in on the local programming to the detriment of their national product. There aren't as many baseball fans these days as there are fans of the local team. Honestly I couldn't have named half of the Red Sox line up before the playoffs began.
So outside of the Yankees and Cubs, I'm not sure there is any team that would draw more than any other, unless their local fan base is simply larger. (LA v. Milwaukee for instance.)
Quote from: buckchuckler on October 28, 2018, 10:06:26 PM
Have to say, never saw this coming out of David Price.
Also Kenley blowing 2 saves, never would have bet on that either.
Me neither. Going into the playoffs, the Sox had a rotation of an ailing Sale, a consistently terrible postseason pitcher in Price, and up and down guys Porcello and Eovaldi, and a bullpen that had been shaky the last month of the season or so. Even though they won 108 games, it was mostly the same cast that had meekly bowed out of the playoffs the last two years and I didn't have high hopes for the postseason, especially against the Yankees in round 1. But once the playoffs started, outside of Sale (who was definitely not physically right) all the pitchers were suddenly the best versions of themselves. Joe Kelly being good Joe Kelly instead of wild Joe Kelly was huge. But the biggest surprise (especially after getting knocked around by the Yankees in his first start) by far was Price.
Quote from: MU82 on October 29, 2018, 07:33:34 AM
The first four games of the World Series brought the lowest ratings in four years for Fox ... though that was reflective more of the general decline in broadcast TV viewership.
Hard to believe the first part of that, what with baseball players never kneeling during the anthem.
As for the second part, yep yep. Most sports, especially the NFL, has had positive ratings relative to the rest of television programming.
Baseball on TV is unwatchable, unless you have a dog in the fight. Even then it's often still better on the radio.
Quote from: jsglow on October 29, 2018, 08:48:12 AM
Baseball on TV is unwatchable, unless you have a dog in the fight. Even then it's often still better on the radio.
It's watchable, as long as you are doing something else like reading a book, playing video games, doing work, etc.
Quote from: jsglow on October 29, 2018, 08:48:12 AM
Baseball on TV is unwatchable, unless you have a dog in the fight. Even then it's often still better on the radio.
Quote from: mu03eng on October 29, 2018, 09:03:46 AM
It's watchable, as long as you are doing something else like reading a book, playing video games, doing work, etc.
Agree with both of these observations, gentlemen.
I cannot sit and watch anything close to a full MLB game. I will sometimes have a game on in the background while I do other stuff, as mu03 says. Mostly, I'll watch something else and occasionally check back on a ballgame; if it's a key situation - 2 on, 2 out, tie game, etc - I'll pause and watch for the 8 freakin' minutes the pitcher works to the next batter.
I think all three of us are probably "above average" consumers of sports, and I think our apathy helps explain some of baseball's problems.
But again, compared to most of the ratings for most of the tripe on TV, baseball's ratings aren't that awful. And NFL ratings are outstanding.
I still love the MLB Playoffs. If games are going past 10:30 and I don't have a rooting interest I'll go to bed, but if a game is on I have it on.
Quote from: mu03eng on October 29, 2018, 09:03:46 AM
It's watchable, as long as you are doing something else like reading a book, playing video games, doing work, etc.
That's fair. Hence my radio comment. I very much enjoy #Crew baseball on the radio.
Quote from: jsglow on October 29, 2018, 10:05:53 AM
That's fair. Hence my radio comment. I very much enjoy #Crew baseball on the radio.
I could listen to Uecker talk about paint drying.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on October 29, 2018, 10:16:12 AM
I could listen to Uecker talk about paint drying.
"Nothing but the best paint at your local Hardware Hank. Great wall coverage, fast drying, you betcha. You've got a lot more going for you with Hank... Hardware Hank."
In what was simply a formality, Yelich named NL MVP. Well deserved. As a Brewers fan, his last month (and really second half) was incredible. What a trade.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 15, 2018, 05:46:08 PM
In what was simply a formality, Yelich named NL MVP. Well deserved. As a Brewers fan, his last month (and really second half) was incredible. What a trade.
I have to say, I completely agree with the awards voting this season.
Includin' da dude from ATL over Counsell for mangler, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 15, 2018, 08:36:49 PM
Includin' da dude from ATL over Counsell for mangler, hey?
Hey? Yeah. Younger, unproven team, made the playoffs ahead of schedule. I think he deserved it. Got a team to the playoffs where 2 of the best 3 players were what, 20 and 21? I think he deserves a lot of credit.
Quote from: buckchuckler on November 16, 2018, 12:28:44 PM
Hey? Yeah. Younger, unproven team, made the playoffs ahead of schedule. I think he deserved it. Got a team to the playoffs where 2 of the best 3 players were what, 20 and 21? I think he deserves a lot of credit.
Only real issue I have is Cain getting robbed of a gold glove.
In the first big trade of the offseason, Yanks acquire James Paxton.
Didn't no he played baseball. Sure wuz a hellofa playa wit da Dayton Flyers, aina?
Adrian Beltre is retiring. Seems like a sure fire HOF to me, and one of the best all around 3B to play the game.
All the other HOFers should rub the head of Beltre's bust, just to tick him off.
With Beltre retiring, Bartolo Colon is the last current player to have played in the 90's.
Quote from: WI inferiority Complexes on November 20, 2018, 11:01:45 AM
All the other HOFers should rub the head of Beltre's bust, just to tick him off.
With Beltre retiring, Bartolo Colon is the last current player to have played in the 90's.
(https://i.imgur.com/9hrPZ8p.gif)
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/424.gif?w=475)
Always seemed to me like a guy that truly loved playing the game.
Quote from: buckchuckler on November 20, 2018, 10:48:44 AM
Adrian Beltre is retiring. Seems like a sure fire HOF to me, and one of the best all around 3B to play the game.
Red Sox had him for one year and let him go to free agency to get Adrian Gonzalez instead. At the time I didn't understand it, and it turned out to be a huge mistake, at least until the Dodgers bailed the Sox out and took the big contracts of A-Gon, Beckett and Crawford off of their hands.
Quote from: buckchuckler on November 20, 2018, 10:48:44 AM
Adrian Beltre is retiring. Seems like a sure fire HOF to me, and one of the best all around 3B to play the game.
He's a HOF lock unless something comes out about PEDs (like Bonds, Clemens, etc) or being a dick (Schilling). The only active hitters who are more of locks than Beltre are Pujols and Cabrera, so that's saying something about the guy.
Beltre should be a first ballot.
Is he legit freaked out by someone touching his head? Or is the whole thing an act?