MUScoop

MUScoop => The Superbar => COVID-19 => Topic started by: injuryBug on April 11, 2020, 01:36:17 PM

Title: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on April 11, 2020, 01:36:17 PM
Decided to start a new thread for information people find on Vaccines and antibody testing updates and also general discussion on Covid-19 and how we move forward without the political BS in the other thread.

Stole this link from Frenns

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/492191-antibody-tests-for-the-coronavirus-could-be
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 11, 2020, 06:49:17 PM
UK bullish.

 https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be (https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 11, 2020, 08:07:14 PM
UK bullish.

 https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be (https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be)

Hard to imagine, but it would be awesome if it happens on that timeline.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on April 12, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
St. Luke's in Milwaukee on the forefront of this:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/04/11/milwaukee-man-stable-after-experimental-coronavirus-plasma-transfusion/2977352001/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 12, 2020, 10:24:00 AM
St. Luke's in Milwaukee on the forefront of this:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/04/11/milwaukee-man-stable-after-experimental-coronavirus-plasma-transfusion/2977352001/


I'm assuming (?) that is part of the national study that is coordinating criteria for administration, monitoring and data collection. https://www.uscovidplasma.org To date, more than 800 sites (hospitals, blood banks, etc) are participating. By using the standardized protocol, FDA and docs will be in the best position to monitor and assess the safety and efficacy of the treatment.

Really hoping this works....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on April 13, 2020, 12:22:40 PM
Heard a story today that a study of SARS patients showed that in that case, anti-bodies stay in the body and are effective for up to 2 years before starting to drop off by the 3rd year. So if it is similar for COVID and the convalescent plasma treatment is effective, it may not be the same as a vaccine but it could provide similar results until (if) a vaccine is developed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on April 13, 2020, 12:51:57 PM
Heard a story today that a study of SARS patients showed that in that case, anti-bodies stay in the body and are effective for up to 2 years before starting to drop off by the 3rd year. So if it is similar for COVID and the convalescent plasma treatment is effective, it may not be the same as a vaccine but it could provide similar results until (if) a vaccine is developed.

May not be entirely accurate. The problem is two fold. Yes, antibodies remain detectable for 3-years on SARS (see reference 23 in the link below). But they start declining within 4 months. Where between 3-years and 4-months you drop below an effective level is unknown.

For MERS, the antibody levels dropped rapidly within the first 3-months (see reference 24). So depending on which one this is like, could mean, no resistance within 3-months, or some resistance up to 3-years.

Now, in both cases that is for patients that were infected and recovered on their own. That would not be the case (as far as I'm aware) for someone just injected with antibodies. So it alone can't "act as a vaccine". It doesn't work that way.

But I agree, that it will likely act as our best bridge until a vaccine is developed.

Note. The link below is to the peer reviewed study of the first uses of convalescent plasma therapy for COVID.

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/02/2004168117
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on April 13, 2020, 01:31:54 PM
Great stuff forgetful, thank you.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on April 21, 2020, 07:17:35 PM
Florida man to the rescue! Our little town.

Coronavirus Florida: Jupiter scientists think they’ve found effective vaccine option
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20200421/coronavirus-florida-jupiter-scientists-think-theyrsquove-found-effective-vaccine-option

If you are bored on Wednesday, they are having a webinar to discuss. Limited to 3000 people, so get your seats early.

Scientists at Scripps Research Institute think they’re onto something big. Some of the latest research coming out of Scripps’ Jupiter campus could lead to a safe and effective coronavirus vaccine, researchers there say.

“These data suggest that an RBD-based vaccine for (the coronavirus) could be safe and effective,” researchers wrote in a draft abstract. The preliminary findings were posted April 12 on Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory’s website for unpublished life science preprints.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on April 26, 2020, 11:44:55 AM
https://news.yale.edu/2020/04/24/saliva-samples-preferable-deep-nasal-swabs-testing-covid-19

Not antibody but another positive toward saliva based which could open up more tests
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 26, 2020, 01:05:31 PM
https://news.yale.edu/2020/04/24/saliva-samples-preferable-deep-nasal-swabs-testing-covid-19

Not antibody but another positive toward saliva based which could open up more tests


And spitting is a lot more fun than having someone stick a swab way up your nose....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on April 26, 2020, 03:04:02 PM
Dr. Michael Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, told NBC’s Meet The Press “The FDA has all but given up its oversight responsibility for the tests we have on the market,” he added. “Many of them are nothing short of a disaster.”

Officials have sounded the alarm about the efficacy of tests currently on the market, criticizing the FDA for greenlighting the products too quickly. The federal government temporarily stripped some of its regulatory barriers after it was scrutinized for its slow rollout of diagnostic tests.

On Friday, the House Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy released preliminary findings that showed “wide gaps” in the Trump administration’s handling of antibody testing. “FDA did not review any coronavirus ‘rapid’ antibody test kits before they went on the market, and a lack of enforcement by FDA has allowed manufacturers to make fraudulent claims about their efficacy,” according to the panel’s findings.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 26, 2020, 03:32:28 PM
Dr. Michael Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, told NBC’s Meet The Press “The FDA has all but given up its oversight responsibility for the tests we have on the market,” he added. “Many of them are nothing short of a disaster.”

Officials have sounded the alarm about the efficacy of tests currently on the market, criticizing the FDA for greenlighting the products too quickly. The federal government temporarily stripped some of its regulatory barriers after it was scrutinized for its slow rollout of diagnostic tests.

On Friday, the House Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy released preliminary findings that showed “wide gaps” in the Trump administration’s handling of antibody testing. “FDA did not review any coronavirus ‘rapid’ antibody test kits before they went on the market, and a lack of enforcement by FDA has allowed manufacturers to make fraudulent claims about their efficacy,” according to the panel’s findings.

Regrettably, that seems to be similar to CDC’s approach to its disease control and prevention functions, essentially handing responsibility for testing and contact tracing to the states through its inaction.

Given that CDC and FDA both report to Azar, who in turn reports to a president who ran on a deregulation platform, it’s hard to tell how much of this is negligence by the regulators and how much is a result of a three-year long effort to punt regulatory responsibility downstream.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 26, 2020, 03:58:25 PM
Azar looks to be losing his job and as head of FDA and CDC I don’t know that it is inappropriate. I hope they bring in someone with a strong POV with how to make the best of this—Gottlieb has been vocal and is in the right party.  Maybe he would be a good replacement.

I may (and should have) added that there are also capable people on the task force like Birx.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on April 26, 2020, 05:24:00 PM
I want an antibody test.  Anyone know where I could get one in MKE?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on April 26, 2020, 08:04:45 PM
I want an antibody test.  Anyone know where I could get one in MKE?

Please be aware that depending on which test you get, there may be as high of a 20% false positive rate.

So if only 2% of people are infected, for every 1 that tests positive that did have it, 9 will test positive that have never had it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 26, 2020, 08:26:15 PM
Please be aware that depending on which test you get, there may be as high of a 20% false positive rate.

So if only 2% of people are infected, for every 1 that tests positive that did have it, 9 will test positive that have never had it.

Nm
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on April 28, 2020, 07:30:05 AM
Some potentially excellent news

In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead

"Most other teams have had to start with small clinical trials of a few hundred participants to demonstrate safety. But scientists at the university’s Jenner Institute had a head start on a vaccine, having proved in previous trials that similar inoculations — including one last year against an earlier coronavirus — were harmless to humans.

"That has enabled them to leap ahead and schedule tests of their new coronavirus vaccine involving more than 6,000 people by the end of next month, hoping to show not only that it is safe, but also that it works.

"Scientists at the National Institutes of Health’s Rocky Mountain Laboratory in Montana last month inoculated six rhesus macaque monkeys with single doses of the Oxford vaccine. The animals were then exposed to heavy quantities of the virus that is causing the pandemic — exposure that had consistently sickened other monkeys in the lab. But more than 28 days later all six were healthy, said Vincent Munster, the researcher who conducted the test."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/world/europe/coronavirus-vaccine-update-oxford.html?campaign_id=168&emc=edit_NN_p_20200428&instance_id=17997&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=98421546&section=topNews&segment_id=26118&te=1&user_id=65badcb7c07b4cd4815fe5e758510381
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on April 28, 2020, 10:00:41 AM
Some potentially excellent news

In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead

"Most other teams have had to start with small clinical trials of a few hundred participants to demonstrate safety. But scientists at the university’s Jenner Institute had a head start on a vaccine, having proved in previous trials that similar inoculations — including one last year against an earlier coronavirus — were harmless to humans.

"That has enabled them to leap ahead and schedule tests of their new coronavirus vaccine involving more than 6,000 people by the end of next month, hoping to show not only that it is safe, but also that it works.

"Scientists at the National Institutes of Health’s Rocky Mountain Laboratory in Montana last month inoculated six rhesus macaque monkeys with single doses of the Oxford vaccine. The animals were then exposed to heavy quantities of the virus that is causing the pandemic — exposure that had consistently sickened other monkeys in the lab. But more than 28 days later all six were healthy, said Vincent Munster, the researcher who conducted the test."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/world/europe/coronavirus-vaccine-update-oxford.html?campaign_id=168&emc=edit_NN_p_20200428&instance_id=17997&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=98421546&section=topNews&segment_id=26118&te=1&user_id=65badcb7c07b4cd4815fe5e758510381

I'm hesitantly optimistic. Early on I commented that I thought there was a chance that a vaccine may be able to be accelerated to around 9-months. So ready by around October. That was based on a group like this one, getting started right away, and a country willing to bend testing rules and allow accelerated phase II/III trials.

Now the big hurdle. It has to work. A lot of treatments/vaccines work fine in mice or monkeys, then fail when they transition to monkeys. Hoping this one works well, or at least moderately.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on April 28, 2020, 10:47:23 PM
https://covidtestingproject.org/index.html

For those interested in getting antibody tests. You can look here to find which tests are accurate and which are not, and then make sure that your testing company is giving you a good one.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on April 29, 2020, 08:51:51 AM
https://covidtestingproject.org/index.html

For those interested in getting antibody tests. You can look here to find which tests are accurate and which are not, and then make sure that your testing company is giving you a good one.


I'm having trouble reading them .. it kinda seems like the tests for antibodies are not very good early, 1-5 "days since onset."  11-15days they are pretty good .. then > 20 days .. maybe they're good, but the dots fade out as if to say they aren't?
 
I would have thought you'd have a ton of antibodies after infection, then fewer as time went on, but maybe my medical degree from Holiday Inn Express is failing me.


Then the other chart .. seems to suggest as time goes on, +20 days, the positive tests are way fewer, more negatives.   So .. if you were infected 2 months ago, you don't have detectable antibodies anymore?   I don't get it.


-- Saw this website on the news last night .. $119 and they'll direct you to an office for a blood draw and antibody test .. no idea where the offices are located in the US though:  http://getquesttest.com/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on April 29, 2020, 10:29:34 AM

I'm having trouble reading them .. it kinda seems like the tests for antibodies are not very good early, 1-5 "days since onset."  11-15days they are pretty good .. then > 20 days .. maybe they're good, but the dots fade out as if to say they aren't?
 
I would have thought you'd have a ton of antibodies after infection, then fewer as time went on, but maybe my medical degree from Holiday Inn Express is failing me.


Then the other chart .. seems to suggest as time goes on, +20 days, the positive tests are way fewer, more negatives.   So .. if you were infected 2 months ago, you don't have detectable antibodies anymore?   I don't get it.


-- Saw this website on the news last night .. $119 and they'll direct you to an office for a blood draw and antibody test .. no idea where the offices are located in the US though:  http://getquesttest.com/

In general, the figures in the main link are hard to read. But the text in the paper linked in the main link is more informative.

What you are seeing in the 2nd table where you see dots fading out, I think that is due to a lack of samples, or running out of sample material at >20 days.

The main text in the paper link has a table summarizing efficacy of each test in SARS-CoV2 patients, and in blood samples from prior to COVID-19 emerging (e.g. from at least a year ago). The latter lets you test false positives. The table in the main text is the most useful part.

It is normal and expected for antibodies to peak late in the infection. In general we have two different immune systems, the innate immune system, and the adaptive immune system. Early in infections the innate immune system tries to clear any foreign infections, it does not have specificity for any specific disease, it is a general response.

Later in infection the adaptive immune system kicks in. It is specific to an antigen, and includes the production of antibodies. So we expect that later in the infection there will be more antibodies present and a higher degree of positive antibody tests.


Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 29, 2020, 11:12:16 AM

It is normal and expected for antibodies to peak late in the infection. In general we have two different immune systems, the innate immune system, and the adaptive immune system. Early in infections the innate immune system tries to clear any foreign infections, it does not have specificity for any specific disease, it is a general response.

Later in infection the adaptive immune system kicks in. It is specific to an antigen, and includes the production of antibodies. So we expect that later in the infection there will be more antibodies present and a higher degree of positive antibody tests.



That is a terrific explanation for non-scientists.

The only thing I would add - to help others understand some terms they may be hearing in the news - is that the cytokines, the complement system, and various types of white blood cells (macrophages, natural killer cells, T-cells and such) are parts of the innate immune system. They all help to serve as a bridge to get us to the point where we have specific antibodies directed at the pathogen.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on April 29, 2020, 11:34:35 AM
Good news and bad news.

There are currently 5 vaccines in clinical trials and 71 vaccines in pre-clinical trials (end of good news). But if even one of them makes in to market in 12-18 months, it would be the quickest turnaround in history. The record for fastest vaccine is 4 years for the Mumps back in the 60s. For Ebola, a vaccine took 5 years.

Normally, a vaccine takes 8-10 years. With the amount of work being done for this one, though, 18 months may be achievable.

We don't even know what type of vaccine will work best as there are different ways of attacking it, but vaccines are a different animal than medicines. You are not trying to cure people, so in a healthy population, you don't want the vaccine to have negative consequences. Thus the human clinical trials take the longest.

Phase 1 - testing on healthy volunteers for serious side effects.

Phase 2 - smaller studies of efficacy, looking at best dosages and scheduling of dosages.

Phase 3 - large field studies. Using a control group and looking for side effects and at what dosages they occur.


So, once again, this shows the lunacy of our leader when he says we may have a vaccine in a few months. Not just lunacy, but flat out lying as he has been told different by the scientists.

One last bit of good news - medical treatments may well be available much sooner for seriously ill patients.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on April 29, 2020, 12:56:20 PM
Ok .. so true or false, a COVID anti-body test .. after 20 days, 200 days will they be able to detect COVID antibodies / is it harder to detect / more false positives/negatives?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 29, 2020, 01:17:26 PM
Ok .. so true or false, a COVID anti-body test .. after 20 days, 200 days will they be able to detect COVID antibodies / is it harder to detect / more false positives/negatives?

that's a little to complicated for a T/F question.  Time for some Horsey sauce to fix your brain waves.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on April 29, 2020, 01:50:43 PM
Ok .. so true or false, a COVID anti-body test .. after 20 days, 200 days will they be able to detect COVID antibodies / is it harder to detect / more false positives/negatives?

After 20 days, yes, you will be able to detect antibodies. Tests have a greater than 95% accuracy in detecting antibodies at that time frame, some over 99% accurate. So minimal false negatives.

After 200 days, we don't even know if people will still have antibodies. That is an open question.

Regarding false positives, depending on which test you take, there will be between 2-20% false positives, that is the problem. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on April 30, 2020, 09:27:31 AM
Good news and bad news.

There are currently 5 vaccines in clinical trials and 71 vaccines in pre-clinical trials (end of good news). But if even one of them makes in to market in 12-18 months, it would be the quickest turnaround in history. The record for fastest vaccine is 4 years for the Mumps back in the 60s. For Ebola, a vaccine took 5 years.

Normally, a vaccine takes 8-10 years. With the amount of work being done for this one, though, 18 months may be achievable.

We don't even know what type of vaccine will work best as there are different ways of attacking it, but vaccines are a different animal than medicines. You are not trying to cure people, so in a healthy population, you don't want the vaccine to have negative consequences. Thus the human clinical trials take the longest.

Phase 1 - testing on healthy volunteers for serious side effects.

Phase 2 - smaller studies of efficacy, looking at best dosages and scheduling of dosages.

Phase 3 - large field studies. Using a control group and looking for side effects and at what dosages they occur.


So, once again, this shows the lunacy of our leader when he says we may have a vaccine in a few months. Not just lunacy, but flat out lying as he has been told different by the scientists.

One last bit of good news - medical treatments may well be available much sooner for seriously ill patients.

Yep, I saw one report that said average is 10.7 years for vaccine. And 6% of developed vaccines have been successful.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
Good news and bad news.

There are currently 5 vaccines in clinical trials and 71 vaccines in pre-clinical trials (end of good news). But if even one of them makes in to market in 12-18 months, it would be the quickest turnaround in history. The record for fastest vaccine is 4 years for the Mumps back in the 60s. For Ebola, a vaccine took 5 years.

Normally, a vaccine takes 8-10 years. With the amount of work being done for this one, though, 18 months may be achievable.

We don't even know what type of vaccine will work best as there are different ways of attacking it, but vaccines are a different animal than medicines. You are not trying to cure people, so in a healthy population, you don't want the vaccine to have negative consequences. Thus the human clinical trials take the longest.

Phase 1 - testing on healthy volunteers for serious side effects.

Phase 2 - smaller studies of efficacy, looking at best dosages and scheduling of dosages.

Phase 3 - large field studies. Using a control group and looking for side effects and at what dosages they occur.


So, once again, this shows the lunacy of our leader when he says we may have a vaccine in a few months. Not just lunacy, but flat out lying as he has been told different by the scientists.

One last bit of good news - medical treatments may well be available much sooner for seriously ill patients.

This for the Mods:

Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.

Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2020, 11:12:06 AM
Biden isn't the POTUS, and isn't making false statements about COVID on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on April 30, 2020, 11:27:06 AM
This for the Mods:

Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.

Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.
You aren't wrong, but Trump is the one in charge.    The decider.    The one where the buck stops.    And criticizing a sitting president has been a national pastime since we have had presidents.     The solution for you should be to make a cogent, fact based, no campaign talking point, case that the federal response has been timely, appropriate, and effective.     Shut up the complainers.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2020, 11:40:11 AM
You aren't wrong, but Trump is the one in charge.    The decider.    The one where the buck stops.    And criticizing a sitting president has been a national pastime since we have had presidents.     The solution for you should be to make a cogent, fact based, no campaign talking point, case that the federal response has been timely, appropriate, and effective.     Shut up the complainers.

To take it a step further, if Biden was doing what our current POTUS is doing, he'd be getting criticized the same way from me. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on April 30, 2020, 11:41:39 AM
This for the Mods:

Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.

Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.


Has drinking cleaning products proven to be effective in treating covid 19? Can we inject sunlight to attack the virus?

I assume these are the scientific discussions you’re referring to. Trump SHOULDN’T be putting three sentences together. When he does it usually has some bad consequences.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 30, 2020, 11:48:14 AM
You aren't wrong, but Trump is the one in charge.    The decider.    The one where the buck stops.    And criticizing a sitting president has been a national pastime since we have had presidents.     The solution for you should be to make a cogent, fact based, no campaign talking point, case that the federal response has been timely, appropriate, and effective.     Shut up the complainers.

There is a differnce between critcizing the president, feds, governors, mayors, etc. and the gratuitous political commentary from the likes of jockitch, tsmith, wades, Dad, and nads82.

There are plenty of left leaning posters that can accomplish the first point without resorting to the 2nd. 

Likewise, there are plenty of opposing viewpoints that also cant resist the commentary (myself included), but that has been predominantly in repsonse to the poo tossing from the above 5.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on April 30, 2020, 11:54:37 AM
There is a differnce between critcizing the president, feds, governors, mayors, etc. and the gratuitous political commentary from the likes of jockitch, tsmith, wades, Dad, and nads82.

There are plenty of left leaning posters that can accomplish the first point without resorting to the 2nd. 

Likewise, there are plenty of opposing viewpoints that also cant resist the commentary (myself included), but that has been predominantly in repsonse to the poo tossing from the above 5.

Lol you sound like the Cubs fans in the MLB thread a couple years ago. “These guys made me do it!”

PS I’m just passing along what’s been suggested by our “leader.” Not sure why you support him if my posts FORCE you to post so out of character for yourself.

 ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on April 30, 2020, 12:28:12 PM
This for the Mods:

Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.

Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.

How is Biden involved with Covid? When he is, I will have either praise or criticism of the job he does.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on April 30, 2020, 12:58:21 PM
There is a differnce between critcizing the president, feds, governors, mayors, etc. and the gratuitous political commentary from the likes of jockitch, tsmith, wades, Dad, and nads82.

There are plenty of left leaning posters that can accomplish the first point without resorting to the 2nd. 

Likewise, there are plenty of opposing viewpoints that also cant resist the commentary (myself included), but that has been predominantly in repsonse to the poo tossing from the above 5.
You know what you could do? You could try to refute what you see as gratuitous political commentary instead of crying like a child. You could make an argument as to why the response to the pandemic has been good, point out all the wonderful things that have been done, make some suggestions on what could be done in the future.

Heck, you could even add to the thread by pointing out research and other developments that are occurring, trends that are showing up, or how you see it playing out as states re-open. But instead of doing that 99% of your posts alternate between content free snips and whining to the mods. Instead of being a complete snowflake, maybe try contributing something and stop sobbing about those that do.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2020, 01:34:42 PM
Alternatively, we could probably all be a bit better here.

What is frustrating is reading a generally well thought out post... and then there is one or two lines that are just not necessary, and will probably fan the flames.  Of course, I'm guilty of this as well.  I'm going to work on it... so maybe we all should.  It would make this place a bit less toxic.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 30, 2020, 01:52:33 PM
You know what you could do? You could try to refute what you see as gratuitous political commentary instead of crying like a child. You could make an argument as to why the response to the pandemic has been good, point out all the wonderful things that have been done, make some suggestions on what could be done in the future.

Heck, you could even add to the thread by pointing out research and other developments that are occurring, trends that are showing up, or how you see it playing out as states re-open. But instead of doing that 99% of your posts alternate between content free snips and whining to the mods. Instead of being a complete snowflake, maybe try contributing something and stop sobbing about those that do.

You can also pm your daily koz talking points to your pals too and respect rocky and topper's request to keep the politics out.

But personal accountability and self control is something you clearly lack.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on April 30, 2020, 02:47:00 PM
You can also pm your daily koz talking points to your pals too and respect rocky and topper's request to keep the politics out.

But personal accountability and self control is something you clearly lack.

Says the guy blaming his posting habits on other posters.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on April 30, 2020, 02:59:40 PM
Back on topic, some potential good news.

South Korea says recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again did not relapse: Tests picked up 'dead virus fragments'
https://www.yahoo.com/news/south-korea-says-recovered-coronavirus-133600512.html

Experts in South Korea said that recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again were not reinfected and that their virus was not reactivated, as was previously feared.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on April 30, 2020, 03:54:34 PM
To take it a step further, if Biden was doing what our current POTUS is doing, he'd be getting criticized the same way from me.
I am right there with you.   I salute Hogan and Dewine.   I may not vote for them, but when safe again I would like to shake their hand.   And if I were less than enthralled with their opponent, I would reward their leadership with my vote.    I am a bleeding heart, but a pragmatic one and I appreciate leadership.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 30, 2020, 04:06:40 PM

Back on topic, some potential good news.

South Korea says recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again did not relapse: Tests picked up 'dead virus fragments'
https://www.yahoo.com/news/south-korea-says-recovered-coronavirus-133600512.html

Experts in South Korea said that recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again were not reinfected and that their virus was not reactivated, as was previously feared.

.

That is incredibly good news if it holds true. If patients could recover and then relapse, this could turn from a global catastrophe to a Sci-Fi movie that ends with a scorched earth....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 30, 2020, 04:35:14 PM
I am right there with you.   I salute Hogan and Dewine.   I may not vote for them, but when safe again I would like to shake their hand.   And if I were less than enthralled with their opponent, I would reward their leadership with my vote.    I am a bleeding heart, but a pragmatic one and I appreciate leadership.

I was reading today that Gov Hogan was keeping the tests he bought from South Korea under armed guard because he didn't want Trump trying to steal from the states again.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 30, 2020, 04:54:25 PM

I am right there with you.   I salute Hogan and Dewine.   I may not vote for them, but when safe again I would like to shake their hand.   And if I were less than enthralled with their opponent, I would reward their leadership with my vote.    I am a bleeding heart, but a pragmatic one and I appreciate leadership.



Very well said.

Republicans like Hogan and Dewine deserve huge props for listening to experts and protecting their citizens at the risk of becoming pariahs to POTUS and their party. I applaud their leadership.

Likewise, I will criticize Trump as long as he continues to do more harm than good with his lies, mixed messages, misguided recommendations and constant self-aggrandizement.

This is not political. It is the biggest national and international threat in generations.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on April 30, 2020, 05:29:47 PM
I was reading today that Gov Hogan was keeping the tests he bought from South Korea under armed guard because he didn't want Trump trying to steal from the states again.

https://twitter.com/kathrynw5/status/1255922620832329729?s=19
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Pakuni on May 05, 2020, 08:43:04 AM
 Yashar Ali 🐘 @yashar
NEWS: Pfizer and German pharmaceutical company BioNTech announced that their potential coronavirus vaccine began human trials in the United States on Monday. If tests are successful, the vaccine could be ready for emergency use here as early as September nytimes.com/2020/05/05/hea…
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on May 05, 2020, 08:51:24 AM
Yashar Ali 🐘 @yashar
NEWS: Pfizer and German pharmaceutical company BioNTech announced that their potential coronavirus vaccine began human trials in the United States on Monday. If tests are successful, the vaccine could be ready for emergency use here as early as September nytimes.com/2020/05/05/hea…

That is insanely fast.  Hope everything works out with it and its safe, effective, and scalable.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 05, 2020, 09:13:01 AM
That is insanely fast.  Hope everything works out with it and its safe, effective, and scalable.


It is fast, but it might be helpful to clarify for those who aren't familiar with emergency use authorizations: a drug approved under an EUA has not gone through the same level to testing for safety and effectiveness as a normal approved drug. That means while it might be available via the emergency use, we almost certainly won't know by September how safe or effective the vaccine really is.

It's also worth noting that drugs approved under EUAs are typically those for people who already have the disease in question; kind of a last resort for someone desperately ill. Think remdesovir, where people are already in the ICU with grave symptoms, and are willing to try a drug that hasn't been fully vetted for safety and effectiveness.

Given that distinction, I have to seriously wonder whether people would really even use a vaccine under approved under an EUA. Low-risk populations might very well just say "I'll take my chances," while higher-risk populations might very well just say "I'll just stay home." Bottom line: I have serious reservations about whether we could get enough people to take a vaccine approved under an EUA to achieve herd immunity. IMHO, we are going to need a vaccine approved only after the normal level of FDA safety and effectiveness testing, or we won't get enough people who are willing to take it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on May 05, 2020, 10:05:13 AM
Yashar Ali 🐘 @yashar
NEWS: Pfizer and German pharmaceutical company BioNTech announced that their potential coronavirus vaccine began human trials in the United States on Monday. If tests are successful, the vaccine could be ready for emergency use here as early as September nytimes.com/2020/05/05/hea…

They are giving the crazed anti-vaxxers a lot of ammo if the vaccine are on the market by September. No vaccine has ever been approved without extensive human trials.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on May 05, 2020, 12:41:38 PM
I'm sure it'll be free/reasonably priced too
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: #UnleashRowsey on May 05, 2020, 04:38:09 PM
I'm sure it'll be free/reasonably priced too

Have some faith brother. The polio vaccine was.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on May 05, 2020, 05:19:18 PM
Have some faith brother. The polio vaccine was.

Sure. But how long ago was that? And how different is the pharma industry now from those days?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 05, 2020, 05:20:14 PM
Have some faith brother. The polio vaccine was.

That's because the scientists the created it refused any patent rights, saying it belonged to the people.

That ain't happening here, which is why all these big companies are racing to be first.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on May 05, 2020, 06:09:42 PM
That's because the scientists the created it refused any patent rights, saying it belonged to the people.

That ain't happening here, which is why all these big companies are racing to be first.

The fact that Pharma companies are racing to be first is also why there will be a vaccine way quicker than if we just let the government try to figure it out - or if there was no profit involved.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 05, 2020, 06:51:11 PM
The fact that Pharma companies are racing to be first is also why there will be a vaccine way quicker than if we just let the government try to figure it out - or if there was no profit involved.

The government is the one paying all the companies to do this right now. So not sure your point is true. Most of the technology they are all using was also paid for with government money.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on May 05, 2020, 07:00:20 PM
The government is the one paying all the companies to do this right now. So not sure your point is true. Most of the technology they are all using was also paid for with government money.

Socialize the expense, capitalize the profit.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on May 07, 2020, 07:18:10 PM
Blood thinners.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on May 07, 2020, 08:14:32 PM
Blood thinners.

interesting was it not said early on to avoid them as they make it worse?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on May 07, 2020, 08:22:30 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/blood-thinners-could-help-coronavirus-142158406.html

Clotting is a symptom in some more extreme cases.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 07, 2020, 08:23:02 PM
interesting was it not said early on to avoid them as they make it worse?

I thought ibuprofen was I’d earlier.  I think disproved but not certain.  I didn’t see blood thinners listed as something that made it worse. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on May 07, 2020, 08:29:42 PM
I thought ibuprofen was I’d earlier.  I think disproved but not certain.  I didn’t see blood thinners listed as something that made it worse.

i guess that is what i was thinking of.  People just need to be smart and not rush things.  Each day we find out more and more about this virus and will be able to help more and more people just need to give it some time
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 08, 2020, 04:58:35 AM
Excellent news

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/health/coronavirus-antibody-prevalence.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytnational

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on May 10, 2020, 06:11:59 PM
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what’s come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 10, 2020, 06:28:17 PM
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what’s come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.


Don’t know for sure, but I’d suggest contacting one of the hospitals associated with MCW, like maybe Froedtert. I know they are participating in the national study that is treating people with convalescent plasma, so they might be a reasonable place to start.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on May 10, 2020, 07:34:20 PM

Don’t know for sure, but I’d suggest contacting one of the hospitals associated with MCW, like maybe Froedtert. I know they are participating in the national study that is treating people with convalescent plasma, so they might be a reasonable place to start.

^ that
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: #UnleashRowsey on May 10, 2020, 08:51:15 PM
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what’s come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.

Got mine at uw Madison before kidney transplant
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on May 10, 2020, 10:30:12 PM

Don’t know for sure, but I’d suggest contacting one of the hospitals associated with MCW, like maybe Froedtert. I know they are participating in the national study that is treating people with convalescent plasma, so they might be a reasonable place to start.

Appreciated. Will let him know
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on May 11, 2020, 10:09:50 AM
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what’s come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.

https://www.arcpointlabs.com/covid-19-antibody-testing/ (https://www.arcpointlabs.com/covid-19-antibody-testing/)


https://www.questdiagnostics.com/home/Covid-19/ (https://www.questdiagnostics.com/home/Covid-19/)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 11, 2020, 11:54:41 PM
Why I'm not buying Gilead on the Remdesivir news:

Early on I had posted that Remdesivir was the most likely drug to work against SARS. But the problem with Remdesivir, is the same problem it had with Ebola. It works, but not great. It got pushed aside in the Ebola pandemic, because monoclonal antibodies proved to be far more effective in treatment.

I think that is the same fate for SARS. It is going to be a hold-over treatment until monoclonal antibodies come on line in September-November window. Then it will be pushed aside and placed back on the shelves.

The window of time it can be monetized is very narrow.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on May 12, 2020, 07:02:40 AM
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/05/12/coronavirus-nanobio-protect-nasal-antiseptic-bluewillow-biologics/5175988002/

My gut says hokum, but there is just enough there to intrigue me. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 12, 2020, 08:19:57 AM
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/05/12/coronavirus-nanobio-protect-nasal-antiseptic-bluewillow-biologics/5175988002/

My gut says hokum, but there is just enough there to intrigue me.

I just don't see the benefit. It isn't going to stop infection. It may be mildly unsafe.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 12, 2020, 08:39:05 AM
Then there is this story. 
If there was a real pandemic response team the'd be sourcing these items now (or a workable replacement) and putting in stock.



The ‘biggest challenge’ won’t come until after a coronavirus vaccine is found
The nation’s supply chain isn’t anywhere close to ready.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on May 12, 2020, 09:02:06 AM
Then there is this story. 
If there was a real pandemic response team the'd be sourcing these items now (or a workable replacement) and putting in stock.



The ‘biggest challenge’ won’t come until after a coronavirus vaccine is found
The nation’s supply chain isn’t anywhere close to ready.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450

Trump said he can get the team back very quickly.  Also, there is no need for them when you have Jared and his crack team of volunteers.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on May 12, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
Then there is this story. 
If there was a real pandemic response team the'd be sourcing these items now (or a workable replacement) and putting in stock.



The ‘biggest challenge’ won’t come until after a coronavirus vaccine is found
The nation’s supply chain isn’t anywhere close to ready.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450)


I'd read that yesterday .. this is not rocket science.  The world will need several billion doses of the vaccine.   


If someone isn't working on getting several billion vials, rubber stoppers and syringes .. that would be absolute insanity. 


The hard part is the vaccine.  Rubber stoppers better be easy in comparison, or we're in a world of hurt.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on May 12, 2020, 11:05:48 AM

I'd read that yesterday .. this is not rocket science.  The world will need several billion doses of the vaccine.   


If someone isn't working on getting several billion vials, rubber stoppers and syringes .. that would be absolute insanity. 


The hard part is the vaccine.  Rubber stoppers better be easy in comparison, or we're in a world of hurt.

Rubber stoppers can still fail, yo.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on May 12, 2020, 11:12:48 AM
Is your mama a llama? 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 12, 2020, 12:29:29 PM
A potential problem for vaccine production, is that the large scale abilities to produce the vaccines is largely in India.

If this is really bad when the vaccines are online, we may see India refuse to ship vaccines until their 1B+ population is vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on May 12, 2020, 01:07:21 PM

I'd read that yesterday .. this is not rocket science.  The world will need several billion doses of the vaccine.   


If someone isn't working on getting several billion vials, rubber stoppers and syringes .. that would be absolute insanity. 


The hard part is the vaccine.  Rubber stoppers better be easy in comparison, or we're in a world of hurt.


I think this administration has shown that it is rocket science. I see no reason to expect they can get it right.

The military should be put in charge of this and Jared should be sent to his room. Just as General Honore was put in charge of the Katrina mess after Bush totally screwed the pooch. And he must be given full authority to order private business to gear up to produce whatever is necessary in the quantities that are necessary.

Our leader has made it clear that he wants no part of what the rest of the world is doing vaccine-wise. We are truly on our own here. And the one true thing we know is that our current leader(s) are not up to the task.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 20, 2020, 09:17:25 AM
I did not get a chance to post yesterday. 
New York Times daily email had info on COVID-19 vaccine development.



Why vaccines are so slow
Early news about medical treatments — like yesterday’s announcement that a coronavirus vaccine has shown positive results in eight people — can feel both exciting and frustrating.

The frustrating part is the timing. Even if all continues to go well with the research into this vaccine, it won’t be available until late this year or early next year. Between now and then, the vaccine will have to endure two more research trials, one involving hundreds of people and the other involving thousands.

Given the virus’s terrible toll, that long process can seem strangely lacking in urgency. But scientists insist that it isn’t. Here are the key reasons they say that there are no easy or fast routes to a vaccine:

Early results don’t always stand. In 2015, the French drug company Sanofi began selling the first vaccine for dengue. The drug had made it through multiple research trials — although some researchers believed Sanofi had ignored worrisome signs. Sure enough, as children in the Philippines began using it, some contracted an even worse form of dengue. Today, use of the vaccine is highly restricted.

In recent testimony, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious-disease expert, noted that a coronavirus vaccine could suffer from the same problem.

The larger point is that drugs that look good in small, initial studies often look less good when they’re tested in more people.

Side effects matter. A vaccine doesn’t merely need to work, as Katie Thomas, a Times reporter covering pharmaceuticals, explained to me. It needs not to have side effects that cause more damage than the virus itself.

This coronavirus seems to kill only a small percentage of people who get it. The side effects have the potential to do more damage, because any coronavirus vaccine will be given to billions of people, including many with underlying health problems.

Politics matter, too. Vaccines are the subject of frequent conspiracy theories and falsehoods. Given this skepticism, a coronavirus vaccine that did more harm than good could cause much broader damage.

It could lead people around the world to stop taking vaccines that actually work. That’s what happened in the Philippines after the dengue scandal.

All of which is a reminder that promising early results — like yesterday’s — often prove fleeting. Only about 10 percent of drugs that clear the first research phase ultimately make it to market.


Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on May 20, 2020, 09:28:52 AM
Even yesterday's results may not be as awesome as first thought.   Keep sciencing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 12:15:32 PM
It is interesting to see different reactions to vaccine data. Today a published vaccine trial from China showed 50% developed neutralizing antibodies. Some side effects of fever.

The Moderna vaccine showed less than 20% developed neutralizing antibodies.

Experts are saying the fact that only 50% developed neutralizing antibodies, indicates that the Chinese trial should be ended, and they should move on to a different candidate vaccine. The Moderna results were cheered as ground breaking, and evidence it should be fast-tracked to phase 2 and 3 trials.

Very odd and different reactions. I'm stealing Tower's line, keep sciencing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on May 22, 2020, 12:36:14 PM
It is interesting to see different reactions to vaccine data. Today a published vaccine trial from China showed 50% developed neutralizing antibodies. Some side effects of fever.

The Moderna vaccine showed less than 20% developed neutralizing antibodies.

Experts are saying the fact that only 50% developed neutralizing antibodies, indicates that the Chinese trial should be ended, and they should move on to a different candidate vaccine. The Moderna results were cheered as ground breaking, and evidence it should be fast-tracked to phase 2 and 3 trials.

Very odd and different reactions. I'm stealing Tower's line, keep sciencing.

To me, I'd keep the Chinese trial on track and admit that 50% isn't ideal, but if it's the best we have we go with it.

Moderna is a corporation, and the results are there to pump stock numbers.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 01:45:00 PM
To me, I'd keep the Chinese trial on track and admit that 50% isn't ideal, but if it's the best we have we go with it.

Moderna is a corporation, and the results are there to pump stock numbers.

Honestly, if the worst case scenario is we have a vaccine that is 20-50% effective, and has low side effects, I think most of us would lineup to get it.

That's one of the reasons I think we see a vaccine this winter. It may not be ideal/perfect, but they will be better than nothing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on May 22, 2020, 02:08:10 PM
Honestly, if the worst case scenario is we have a vaccine that is 20-50% effective, and has low side effects, I think most of us would lineup to get it.

That's one of the reasons I think we see a vaccine this winter. It may not be ideal/perfect, but they will be better than nothing.

Maybe, but the side effects better be next to nothing, and there will have to be a heck of a PR campaign that the science is sure as sure can be that there won't be any late-developing side effects.  I don't fancy myself an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination, but as a healthy guy with basically no covid comorbities, rolling up my sleve for something that was fast tracked, that was first tested on humans no more than six months before i get it, and is "not ideal/perfect" scares the hell out of me.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 22, 2020, 04:18:04 PM
Maybe, but the side effects better be next to nothing, and there will have to be a heck of a PR campaign that the science is sure as sure can be that there won't be any late-developing side effects.  I don't fancy myself an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination, but as a healthy guy with basically no covid comorbities, rolling up my sleve for something that was fast tracked, that was first tested on humans no more than six months before i get it, and is "not ideal/perfect" scares the hell out of me.

Totally agree. Whether the drug provides 20%, 50% or even more immunity, my concern with fast-tracking a drug is that they may miss significant side effects that only become apparent once given to millions of people (see, e.g., Vioxx, Accutane, Seldane, etc).

Like you, I am absolutely NOT an anti-vaxxer, but I would take my time before getting any fast-tracked COVID vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 22, 2020, 05:45:17 PM
To me, I'd keep the Chinese trial on track and admit that 50% isn't ideal, but if it's the best we have we go with it.

Moderna is a corporation, and the results are there to pump stock numbers.

Moderna issued equity following the announcement. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on May 22, 2020, 06:24:17 PM
Totally agree. Whether the drug provides 20%, 50% or even more immunity, my concern with fast-tracking a drug is that they may miss significant side effects that only become apparent once given to millions of people (see, e.g., Vioxx, Accutane, Seldane, etc).

Like you, I am absolutely NOT an anti-vaxxer, but I would take my time before getting any fast-tracked COVID vaccine.

I am in the same boat - along with millions of others I would think. The reason an average vaccine takes around 10 years to get to market is because of extensive Human trials that need to be run to ensure 1) safety (most important), and 2) proper dosages for all ages.

Kinda hard to know if there are long term negative effects if a drug is only tested for a few months.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 22, 2020, 06:53:33 PM
Honestly, if the worst case scenario is we have a vaccine that is 20-50% effective, and has low side effects, I think most of us would lineup to get it.

That's one of the reasons I think we see a vaccine this winter. It may not be ideal/perfect, but they will be better than nothing.

Aren't flu vaccines sometimes only 50% effective?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 07:04:24 PM
Aren't flu vaccines sometimes only 50% effective?

Yes, because sometimes we guess the wrong strains. But it proves the point that a 50% effective vaccine can be very beneficial.

Obviously we need to make sure that there are no major side effects. But if the side effects are a headache and possibly low grade fever as has been reported in the Chinese trial, I'll take them for 50% effectiveness.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on May 22, 2020, 07:42:59 PM
Yes, because sometimes we guess the wrong strains. But it proves the point that a 50% effective vaccine can be very beneficial.

Obviously we need to make sure that there are no major side effects. But if the side effects are a headache and possibly low grade fever as has been reported in the Chinese trial, I'll take them for 50% effectiveness.
What degree of concern would you have, if any, about the safety given the severely shortened timeframe to market?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 22, 2020, 07:58:51 PM
Biden isn't the POTUS, and isn't making false statements about COVID on a daily basis.



Nor should he be. He's too busy figuring out how to beat himself and can now tell the color of one's skin just by knowing who they voted for. You're in good hands with Allstate, aina? 🤯
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on May 22, 2020, 08:03:47 PM


Nor should be. He's too busy figuring out how to beat himself and can now tell the color of one's skin just by knowing who they voted for. You're in good hands with Allstate, aina? 🤯
Has he called Nazis and Klansmen good people yet?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on May 22, 2020, 08:16:22 PM
Wouldn’t be counting on Moderna’s vaccine. If it really was promising, execs wouldn’t be dumping stock.

Moderna unveiled encouraging coronavirus vaccine results. Then top execs dumped nearly $30 million of stock

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 22, 2020, 08:19:33 PM
Has he called Nazis and Klansmen good people yet?



Too senile and demented for that.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 08:22:07 PM
Wouldn’t be counting on Moderna’s vaccine. If it really was promising, execs wouldn’t be dumping stock.

Moderna unveiled encouraging coronavirus vaccine results. Then top execs dumped nearly $30 million of stock

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html

Well I guess this answers my question of why they rushed an announcement without the trial even being fully analyzed yet.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on May 22, 2020, 08:25:20 PM
Well I guess this answers my question of why they rushed an announcement without the trial even being fully analyzed yet.

And then there is this.

Established in 2010, Moderna has never brought a product to market, or gotten any of its nine or so vaccine candidates approved for use by the FDA. It has also never brought a product to the third and final phase of a clinical trial.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 22, 2020, 08:36:20 PM
Yes, because sometimes we guess the wrong strains. But it proves the point that a 50% effective vaccine can be very beneficial.

Obviously we need to make sure that there are no major side effects. But if the side effects are a headache and possibly low grade fever as has been reported in the Chinese trial, I'll take them for 50% effectiveness.


What about possible long-term risks that would never be seen in a several week trial? As you well know, drugs often have consequences that don’t show up for months to years.

If this gets approved by the end of the year (which would mean less than 6 months for phase II and III trials combined), we wouldn’t have any idea...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on May 22, 2020, 08:47:21 PM


Nor should he be. He's too busy figuring out how to beat himself and can now tell the color of one's skin just by knowing who they voted for. You're in good hands with Allstate, aina? 🤯

I mean, you're not wrong.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on May 22, 2020, 10:12:48 PM
I mean, you're not wrong.

I've heard that some of the best people love our current president.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 22, 2020, 10:24:08 PM
I've heard that some of the best people love our current president.

Some? All of our best people love him. And everyone else, too.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 22, 2020, 10:26:07 PM
I've heard that some of the best people love our current president.


Been the best president in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on May 22, 2020, 11:19:30 PM
Some? All of our best people love him. And everyone else, too.

LOL.  Thanks Lenny.

Well in advance, lets remember this long weekend is to thank those who have given their lives so that we can debate stupid crap here.  Brave men sent to battle.  Answered that call no matter the cause.  Bless them and their kin.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on May 22, 2020, 11:29:17 PM
LOL.  Thanks Lenny.

Well in advance, lets remember this long weekend is to thank those who have given their lives so that we can debate stupid crap here.  Brave men sent to battle.  Answered that call no matter the cause.  Bless them and their kin.

My 95 year old WWII vet dad thanks you for knowing that this holiday honors those that gave their lives, rather than honoring all veterans. One of his only pet peeves.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on May 22, 2020, 11:47:27 PM
My 95 year old WWII vet dad thanks you for knowing that this holiday honors those that gave their lives, rather than honoring all veterans. One of his only pet peeves.

"Happy Memorial day" is one of the biggest cringe moments going.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on May 22, 2020, 11:51:51 PM
My 95 year old WWII vet dad thanks you for knowing that this holiday honors those that gave their lives, rather than honoring all veterans. One of his only pet peeves.

Hard to forget.  Decades ago I was one of those cub scouts placing flags on graves in our town. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on May 22, 2020, 11:58:27 PM
"Happy Memorial day" is one of the biggest cringe moments going.

I'll debate that too.  While there's not much "happy" about the "holiday", most American workers work VERY hard just for a single holiday between New Years day and Independence day.  Some excitement for a government holiday weekend is understandable in an otherwise 6 month drought of "free" days off of work.  It's not the spirit of the day, but understandable.

Now back to your Vaccine/Antibody updates.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on May 23, 2020, 09:12:58 AM
The meaning of Memorial Day is .. just not common (enough) knowledge.  I was unaware until I was about ~45 years old and became involved in a Memorial Day ceremony.  Had zero idea until then.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 23, 2020, 12:05:21 PM
Since this thread has digressed to Memorial Day, I will throw this out there:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/30/amvets-scraps-plans-rolling-thunder-style-memorial-day-run-dc.html

AMVETS has scrapped plans to carry on the Rolling Thunder tradition in Washington, D.C. this Memorial Day because of the coronavirus restrictions on large gatherings, but pledged to hold similar events next year.

...

He stressed that action by AMVETS was not a formal "cancellation." Instead, AMVETS will sponsor virtual events during the Memorial Day weekend on the POW-MIA issue and other veterans' causes and also promote a "Rolling To Remember" challenge.

The challenge is for those with motorcycles to ride 22 miles wherever they are on Sunday, May 24, the day before Memorial Day, to call attention to the average of 20-22 veteran suicides daily, Chenelly said.


————————

Kind of a cool (and safer) way to continue a nice tradition in the time of Covid.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 23, 2020, 11:46:20 PM
On the negative news side. The British vaccine that they were claiming could be ready by fall, and is already being mass produced, may not be that effective.

Despite resulting in neutralizing antibodies, the vaccine did not prevent Monkeys from being able to be infected with COVID and be able to spread the disease.

There claim of "positive results" in monkeys, was because none of the monkeys (very few) got viral pneumonia. The problem is, results are usually much better in monkeys than humans. So not so promising.

That also means that the neutralizing antibodies being produced in these other trials, may also be incapable of preventing infection and spread.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 24, 2020, 10:24:20 AM
On the negative news side. The British vaccine that they were claiming could be ready by fall, and is already being mass produced, may not be that effective.

Despite resulting in neutralizing antibodies, the vaccine did not prevent Monkeys from being able to be infected with COVID and be able to spread the disease.

There claim of "positive results" in monkeys, was because none of the monkeys (very few) got viral pneumonia. The problem is, results are usually much better in monkeys than humans. So not so promising.

That also means that the neutralizing antibodies being produced in these other trials, may also be incapable of preventing infection and spread.


Ugh. Not good. This is why I am skeptical that we can find an effective vaccine and mass-produce it in time for widespread distribution within a year or less.

First, there are so many scientific hurdles - like showing that it produces antibodies, showing that they can actually prevent the disease in some significant percentage of vaccinated individuals, and showing that there aren't significant side effects (and knowing anything about long-term side effects in a couple of three-month studies). One narrow path to success, but so many opportunities for failure.

Then overlay the production issue. Our supposed solution is to ramp up production of the most promising candidates, so we have a few hundred million doses ready to go. But it wouldn't be economically feasible to do that with every possible candidate, so we have to gamble by making "educated guesses" on the ones we think have the best chance of running the gauntlet.

It is a noble and necessary goal, but a longshot at best....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 24, 2020, 10:50:15 AM

Ugh. Not good. This is why I am skeptical that we can find an effective vaccine and mass-produce it in time for widespread distribution within a year or less.

First, there are so many scientific hurdles - like showing that it produces antibodies, showing that they can actually prevent the disease in some significant percentage of vaccinated individuals, and showing that there aren't significant side effects (and knowing anything about long-term side effects in a couple of three-month studies). One narrow path to success, but so many opportunities for failure.

Then overlay the production issue. Our supposed solution is to ramp up production of the most promising candidates, so we have a few hundred million doses ready to go. But it wouldn't be economically feasible to do that with every possible candidate, so we have to gamble by making "educated guesses" on the ones we think have the best chance of running the gauntlet.

It is a noble and necessary goal, but a longshot at best....

I think we essentially have to take a gamble on scaling up the most promising candidates, but think it is also pretty much putting your last 5 dollars on a long-shot, in hopes of saving your house/business. It might work, but it has a lot of possibility for failure.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 24, 2020, 12:19:23 PM
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/24/coronavirus-vaccine-china-gottlieb-276763

This is the attitude that scares me about vaccines in development. We are viewing this as a race/competition against China. The world should be looking at this in unison.

What is interesting, is scientists are being the most transparent in human history, publishing breaking results immediately in open archives. So that we can all build off each other. The politicians are using this as a competition. That will result in a rushed vaccine that very likely could be risky, depending on if it is driven by the politician or the scientist. There is then also propaganda.

The Chinese vaccine that they discuss as being inferior and behind, published their preliminary results in the Lancet, peer reviewed. Moderna and Oxford have not. Oxfords is currently available in one of the archives (non peer reviewed). A casual examination of the three, says China's is ahead in effectiveness, but has mild side effects. Oxfords, was unable to prevent infection in monkeys. Moderna's had extremely low neutralizing antibody levels.

It really would be nice if the world worked together. That is our best chance for a safe effective vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on May 24, 2020, 12:49:46 PM
Sadly, that is impossible in today’s world.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on May 24, 2020, 01:41:05 PM
Sadly, that is impossible in today’s world.

The rest of the world did agree to work together. Only one major nation abstained from that effort.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-usa/u-s-says-will-not-take-part-in-who-global-drugs-vaccine-initiative-launch-idUSKCN2261WJ

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-absent-global-conference-raise-money-coronavirus-vaccine/story?id=70493681

That same major nation has been trying to poach the top scientists, to corner the market on therapies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/world/europe/cornonavirus-vaccine-us-germany.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: keefe on May 24, 2020, 02:04:33 PM

Been the best president in my lifetime.

I place him second behind Ronaldus Magnus who was one of the greatest in the proud history of this noble Republic.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 24, 2020, 02:11:32 PM
The rest of the world did agree to work together. Only one major nation abstained from that effort.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-usa/u-s-says-will-not-take-part-in-who-global-drugs-vaccine-initiative-launch-idUSKCN2261WJ

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-absent-global-conference-raise-money-coronavirus-vaccine/story?id=70493681

That same major nation has been trying to poach the top scientists, to corner the market on therapies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/world/europe/cornonavirus-vaccine-us-germany.html

Agreed. It is unfortunate that our current leader seems to see an advantage in putting us against the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: keefe on May 24, 2020, 02:20:59 PM
Some? All of our best people love him. And everyone else, too.

Realpolitik.


Yes, please.

America first.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Pakuni on May 25, 2020, 07:25:13 AM
"Happy Memorial day" is one of the biggest cringe moments going.

@realDonaldTrump: HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Uncle Rico on May 25, 2020, 07:48:15 AM
@realDonaldTrump: HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!

I pity the people that have been conned by President Pandemic into thinking he remotely cares about them.  Those being conned can rarely ever see it as it happens.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Babybluejeans on May 25, 2020, 09:11:14 AM
I pity the people that have been conned by President Pandemic into thinking he remotely cares about them.  Those being conned can rarely ever see it as it happens.

See, e.g., several of the posts from the geriatrics above. In order to resist the creeping notion they’ve been duped, they can only echo “America first” pitifully into their bowl of morning oats.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on May 25, 2020, 09:15:49 AM
See, e.g., several of the posts from the geriatrics above. In order to resist the creeping notion they’ve been duped, they can only echo “America first” pitifully into their bowl of morning oats.

Easier to con a man than for him to admit he's been conned.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on May 25, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
I place him second behind Ronaldus Magnus who was one of the greatest in the proud history of this noble Republic.



As James Mattis said, "I earned my spurs on the battlefield; Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor".

Of course Mattis was a man of honor. Trump's supporters can never claim that mantle.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on May 27, 2020, 07:38:55 PM
So even if we get a vaccine, only half of Americans say they would get one.

https://apnews.com/dacdc8bc428dd4df6511bfa259cfec44

The people who say no or aren’t sure are probably a combination of anti-vaxxers, people who still think “it’s all a hoax,” and people like me who always get recommended vaccines, but are concerned about long-term side effects that could be missed by speeding through this too quickly.

We need everyone to take social distancing more seriously, even if we keep ramping up the economy.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 27, 2020, 07:42:00 PM
I’ll take two!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on May 27, 2020, 07:45:20 PM
I will as soon as one is available.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUfan12 on May 28, 2020, 10:57:08 AM
So even if we get a vaccine, only half of Americans say they would get one.

https://apnews.com/dacdc8bc428dd4df6511bfa259cfec44

The people who say no or aren’t sure are probably a combination of anti-vaxxers, people who still think “it’s all a hoax,” and people like me who always get recommended vaccines, but are concerned about long-term side effects that could be missed by speeding through this too quickly.

My decision on when to get it would depend on what mood Bill Gates is in, and what he'd make me do once I'm being controlled.

I'd likely wait to get it, to 1) let more vulnerable people have it and 2) make sure nothing goes wrong with it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on May 28, 2020, 10:59:57 AM
My decision on when to get it would depend on what mood Bill Gates is in, and what he'd make me do once I'm being controlled.

I'd likely wait to get it, to 1) let more vulnerable people have it and 2) make sure nothing goes wrong with it.

This. If someone's unemployed and needs to get back to work let them take it, let the vulnerable who are against the wall get it. My job was already three days a week from home and I can deal just running to Home Depot and the grocer for awhile longer while the vaccine is fine tuned.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on June 01, 2020, 09:53:05 AM
Wouldn’t be counting on Moderna’s vaccine. If it really was promising, execs wouldn’t be dumping stock.

Moderna unveiled encouraging coronavirus vaccine results. Then top execs dumped nearly $30 million of stock

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html

Update:

Moderna's coronavirus vaccine announcement set off a frenzy on Wall Street. Now some are calling for an investigation
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/business/moderna-vaccine-stock-sales-invs/index.html

Just hours after revealing the promising vaccine results, Moderna (MRNA) sold 17.6 million shares to the public. That share sale, unveiled after the closing bell on May 18, was priced at $76; Moderna traded at just $48 as recently as May 6. The deal instantly raised $1.3 billion.

Days later, Moderna's leading shareholder, venture capital firm Flagship Pioneering, sold 1 million shares on May 21 and 22 at an average price of $69.47, according to filings reviewed by CNN Business. The sales raked in $69.5 million for the venture capital firm.
Flagship Pioneering was founded by Noubar Afeyan, the co-founder and chairman of Moderna. The VC firm owned nearly 51 million Moderna shares as of the end of March, according to the most recent filings.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on June 01, 2020, 03:39:56 PM
Update:

Moderna's coronavirus vaccine announcement set off a frenzy on Wall Street. Now some are calling for an investigation
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/business/moderna-vaccine-stock-sales-invs/index.html

Just hours after revealing the promising vaccine results, Moderna (MRNA) sold 17.6 million shares to the public. That share sale, unveiled after the closing bell on May 18, was priced at $76; Moderna traded at just $48 as recently as May 6. The deal instantly raised $1.3 billion.

Days later, Moderna's leading shareholder, venture capital firm Flagship Pioneering, sold 1 million shares on May 21 and 22 at an average price of $69.47, according to filings reviewed by CNN Business. The sales raked in $69.5 million for the venture capital firm.
Flagship Pioneering was founded by Noubar Afeyan, the co-founder and chairman of Moderna. The VC firm owned nearly 51 million Moderna shares as of the end of March, according to the most recent filings.

Sad, but not uncommon at all. The rich remain rich because they have the advantage over others. There will never be a level playing field.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on June 01, 2020, 04:49:45 PM
Sad, but not uncommon at all. The rich remain rich because they have the advantage over others. There will never be a level playing field.

Hmm.. whatever happened to the investigations of the congressional insider trading?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on June 02, 2020, 09:01:00 AM
Hmm.. whatever happened to the investigations of the congressional insider trading?

It was dropped by DOJ for all except the NC senator that was critical of trump.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 02, 2020, 11:04:46 AM
Hmm.. whatever happened to the investigations of the congressional insider trading?

Besides the NC senator, the DOJ investigated and didn't find a case.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/5/27/21271726/kelly-loeffler-senators-investigation-insider-trading (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/5/27/21271726/kelly-loeffler-senators-investigation-insider-trading)

It was dropped by DOJ for all except the NC senator that was critical of trump.

Good one!  Your a genious.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Pakuni on June 02, 2020, 12:03:08 PM
Good one!  Your a genious.

Sometimes jokes write themselves.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 02, 2020, 12:07:38 PM
Sometimes jokes write themselves.

Apparently teal is still needed for smart people such as yourself.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Pakuni on June 02, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
Apparently teal is still needed for smart people such as yourself.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlusteredCircularGalapagostortoise-max-1mb.gif)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on June 02, 2020, 12:11:43 PM
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlusteredCircularGalapagostortoise-max-1mb.gif)

Fair play.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on June 02, 2020, 12:19:03 PM
Sometimes jokes write themselves.

I see what you did there.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 02, 2020, 12:31:02 PM
Scott Gottlieb's opinion on how fast a vaccine can progress.  Interesting to not lose the over-arching goal -- convincing people to take the vaccine (trust). 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-fast-coronavirus-vaccine-without-cutting-corners-11590954444 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-fast-coronavirus-vaccine-without-cutting-corners-11590954444)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on June 02, 2020, 10:03:23 PM
Ok, I'm fairly concerned about what is being said regarding vaccines by Fauci. He said today, that by the end of the year, there will be 100 million doses of one candidate vaccine. And then a couple 100 million doses in early 2021. Apparently that vaccine is the Moderna vaccine.

What concerns me is that hasn't been really fully tested yet. Moreover, looking at some of the vaccine candidates out there, it doesn't even strike me as the most promising, might not even be in the top 3 most promising. But we are putting all our eggs in that basket.

Something doesn't sound right about that.

Also, it pretty much guarantees they will push this vaccine, even if it isn't very effective. They will have little other option.

So why Moderna? They have failed at every vaccine/drug they've tried. Their data isn't that great. What is going on?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on June 02, 2020, 10:10:27 PM
Ok, I'm fairly concerned about what is being said regarding vaccines by Fauci. He said today, that by the end of the year, there will be 100 million doses of one candidate vaccine. And then a couple 100 million doses in early 2021. Apparently that vaccine is the Moderna vaccine.

What concerns me is that hasn't been really fully tested yet. Moreover, looking at some of the vaccine candidates out there, it doesn't even strike me as the most promising, might not even be in the top 3 most promising. But we are putting all our eggs in that basket.

Something doesn't sound right about that.

Also, it pretty much guarantees they will push this vaccine, even if it isn't very effective. They will have little other option.

So why Moderna? They have failed at every vaccine/drug they've tried. Their data isn't that great. What is going on?


Yep. Completely understandable that they would manufacture the most promising vaccines ahead of time...but I share your concern with the Moderna vaccine being one of them. Hopefully they are making similar manufacturing arrangements with makers of more promising candidates.

If the Moderna is approved and released first, they may very well have a hard time convincing people to take it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on June 02, 2020, 10:27:44 PM

Yep. Completely understandable that they would manufacture the most promising vaccines ahead of time...but I share your concern with the Moderna vaccine being one of them. Hopefully they are making similar manufacturing arrangements with makers of more promising candidates.

If the Moderna is approved and released first, they may very well have a hard time convincing people to take it.

I agree. Planning to mass manufacture the most promising vaccine ahead of time was a great idea. It is one of the things I thought that was forward thinking by the administration. I'm hoping that CNN misquoted him, saying that it was Moderna's vaccine that was going to be mass produced, and what he really meant/said was that the best candidate will be mass produced.

I'm just concerned, because people, including Trump and Fauci, seem politically and intellectually invested in Moderna's vaccine. I now fear it gets pushed regardless of which is best.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on June 02, 2020, 10:39:13 PM
Ok, I'm fairly concerned about what is being said regarding vaccines by Fauci. He said today, that by the end of the year, there will be 100 million doses of one candidate vaccine. And then a couple 100 million doses in early 2021. Apparently that vaccine is the Moderna vaccine.

What concerns me is that hasn't been really fully tested yet. Moreover, looking at some of the vaccine candidates out there, it doesn't even strike me as the most promising, might not even be in the top 3 most promising. But we are putting all our eggs in that basket.

Something doesn't sound right about that.

Also, it pretty much guarantees they will push this vaccine, even if it isn't very effective. They will have little other option.

So why Moderna? They have failed at every vaccine/drug they've tried. Their data isn't that great. What is going on?

What's the worst that could happen? They had great results with ordering those masks from the company that never made them before.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on June 02, 2020, 11:10:20 PM
I agree. Planning to mass manufacture the most promising vaccine ahead of time was a great idea. It is one of the things I thought that was forward thinking by the administration. I'm hoping that CNN misquoted him, saying that it was Moderna's vaccine that was going to be mass produced, and what he really meant/said was that the best candidate will be mass produced.

I'm just concerned, because people, including Trump and Fauci, seem politically and intellectually invested in Moderna's vaccine. I now fear it gets pushed regardless of which is best.


The most promising candidates seem to be from China and England. That shouldn’t be a factor - I sure hope it isn’t- but you never know.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on June 03, 2020, 08:09:18 AM

The most promising candidates seem to be from China and England. That shouldn’t be a factor - I sure hope it isn’t- but you never know.

It certainly will be on who gets the vaccine first, as it will take years to create enough of them.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 04, 2020, 09:37:22 AM
I agree. Planning to mass manufacture the most promising vaccine ahead of time was a great idea. It is one of the things I thought that was forward thinking by the administration. I'm hoping that CNN misquoted him, saying that it was Moderna's vaccine that was going to be mass produced, and what he really meant/said was that the best candidate will be mass produced.

I'm just concerned, because people, including Trump and Fauci, seem politically and intellectually invested in Moderna's vaccine. I now fear it gets pushed regardless of which is best.

Sounds like Fauci mis-spoke or maybe a misinterpretation what he was saying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on June 04, 2020, 01:21:56 PM
Sounds like Fauci mis-spoke or maybe a misinterpretation what he was saying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html)


I'm glad they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket...but I think it's unfortunate that Chinese companies CanSino and Sinovac aren't on the list, as they have two of the most promising candidates IMHO.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on June 04, 2020, 01:56:23 PM
Sounds like Fauci mis-spoke or maybe a misinterpretation what he was saying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html)

Very glad to hear that.


I'm glad they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket...but I think it's unfortunate that Chinese companies CanSino and Sinovac aren't on the list, as they have two of the most promising candidates IMHO.

And agreed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 22, 2020, 07:37:07 AM
If this holds it doesn't bode well for ever achieving herd immunity.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on June 22, 2020, 07:46:36 AM
If this holds it doesn't bode well for ever achieving herd immunity.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html)

I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate. I've seen a few estimates about what % of the population has been infected so far and no country is close to herd immunity, even if getting sick meant that you would be immune forever. With COVID's R0 at a currently estimated ~5.5, we would need 85% of the population to become immune before cases stop dropping on their own (assuming no treatment and no vaccine, which is where we'll be for the next 6+ months).

This isn't the best source for % of each country's population infected, but it's easy to read and it's in the ballpark of what I've read elsewhere.
(https://images.newscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/17143834/200620_n_seroprevalanceweb.jpg)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 22, 2020, 07:49:52 AM
I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate. I've seen a few estimates about what % of the population has been infected so far and no country is close to herd immunity, even if getting sick meant that you would be immune forever. With COVID's R0 at a currently estimated ~5.5, we would need 85% of the population to become immune before cases stop dropping on their own (assuming no treatment and no vaccine, which is where we'll be for the next 6+ months).

This isn't the best source for % of each country's population infected, but it's easy to read and it's in the ballpark of what I've read elsewhere.

I agree with your judgement, but I heard it as recently as this weekend from a state leader in the south. So a not small percent of people think having the young people get the disease is a 'good thing'.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on June 22, 2020, 08:03:40 AM
I agree with your judgment, but I heard it as recently as this weekend from a state leader in the south. So a not small percent of people think having the young people get the disease is a 'good thing'.

Hah! I stand by my statement

> I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 22, 2020, 09:00:40 AM
I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate. I've seen a few estimates about what % of the population has been infected so far and no country is close to herd immunity, even if getting sick meant that you would be immune forever. With COVID's R0 at a currently estimated ~5.5, we would need 85% of the population to become immune before cases stop dropping on their own (assuming no treatment and no vaccine, which is where we'll be for the next 6+ months).

This isn't the best source for % of each country's population infected, but it's easy to read and it's in the ballpark of what I've read elsewhere.
(https://images.newscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/17143834/200620_n_seroprevalanceweb.jpg)


Wow, Sweden's idea worked....well.  ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on June 25, 2020, 08:12:15 AM
Experimenting with radiation to treat patients on ventilators.  Along the lines of an X-RAY blast.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on June 26, 2020, 08:36:42 AM
I'm late to the game here, but that herd immunity graph contrasted against the dashboard directly above it is wild. 
The UK has a population of 66.65 million.  If estimates put contracting the virus at 25% (to use the closest round number) that would be 16,662,500 cases.  And per the dashboard, the UK has had 309,456 confirmed cases as of this post.  That would mean that 1.9% of cases are ever confirmed. 

Doing that same math for the US at 5% of the population of a little over 328 million having contracted would be 16,410,000 cases and a confirmation rate of 14.8%. 

I know I'm doing some rounding with the contraction percentages, but is the US doing that much better a job testing than the UK?  And using the death numbers, are you really 3x more likely to die after contracting covid in the US vs the UK? Something seems off, those are some dramatic disparities.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on June 26, 2020, 08:51:09 AM
I'm late to the game here, but that herd immunity graph contrasted against the dashboard directly above it is wild. 
The UK has a population of 66.65 million.  If estimates put contracting the virus at 25% (to use the closest round number) that would be 16,662,500 cases.  And per the dashboard, the UK has had 309,456 confirmed cases as of this post.  That would mean that 1.9% of cases are ever confirmed. 

Doing that same math for the US at 5% of the population of a little over 328 million having contracted would be 16,410,000 cases and a confirmation rate of 14.8%. 

I know I'm doing some rounding with the contraction percentages, but is the US doing that much better a job testing than the UK?  And using the death numbers, are you really 3x more likely to die after contracting covid in the US vs the UK? Something seems off, those are some dramatic disparities.

The range is heavily dependent on which serological test results one uses. The antibody kits vary greatly in accuracy, and not all correct properly for statistics. I'd take those estimates with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on June 26, 2020, 09:31:02 AM
And there has been limited research on immunity and how long it lasts.
If it only lasts a few months.......
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on June 26, 2020, 09:38:51 AM
And there has been limited research on immunity and how long it lasts.
If it only lasts a few months.......

And there is some evidence that it does only last a couple months.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0965-6

And this case of a woman getting it twice 12-weeks apart.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-woman-battling-coronavirus-again/2389265/

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on June 26, 2020, 10:48:28 AM
And there is some evidence that it does only last a couple months.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0965-6

And this case of a woman getting it twice 12-weeks apart.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-woman-battling-coronavirus-again/2389265/


The other significant point - probably related to limited immunity - is that researchers appear to have identified two general categories of antibodies: those that show you have had COVID, and those that show you actually still have the capability to neutralize the virus. This distinction is behind Mayo Clinic offering two different serological tests.

https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-launches-neutralizing-antibody-test-to-advance-covid-19-therapies/

The new test measures the level of neutralizing antibodies against SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. Neutralizing antibodies are a subset of antibodies able to independently inactivate viruses, and are associated with protective immunity against re-infection for many infectious pathogens.

“The neutralizing antibody test is a critical addition to our COVID-19 testing, expanding on the capabilities of the molecular tests used to diagnose active infection and the serology test, which indicates previous infection by identifying antibodies for the SARS-CoV-2 virus,” says William Morice, II, M.D., Ph.D., president of Mayo Clinic Laboratories. “This new test provides us with incredibly important information about how effective a person’s antibodies are at neutralizing the virus. This will help us identify optimal convalescent plasma donors and ultimately help assess the efficacy of anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 01, 2020, 08:52:52 AM
Pfizer vaccine - positive result.

 https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/01/covid-19-vaccine-from-pfizer-and-biontech-shows-positive-results/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/01/covid-19-vaccine-from-pfizer-and-biontech-shows-positive-results/)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 01, 2020, 04:06:35 PM
Public health experts in the U.K. and Australia have expressed alarm at the move by the U.S. to purchase almost the entire global supply of a drug to treat the coronavirus.

Remdesivir, made by Gilead was originally trialled during the Ebola epidemic and is the first drug that has been approved by licensing authorities in the U.S. to treat COVID-19 after trials showed that it helped some recover from the disease more quickly.
The Trump administration has purchased more than 500,000 doses, which is all of Gilead's production of the drug for this month and 90 percent of its projected supply for August and September. It is made under patent to Gilead, at a cost of around $3,200 per treatment of six doses for richer countries
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 01, 2020, 04:14:58 PM
Gilead should allow third parties to produce it then for a licesing fee.  (If that's possible.  I don't know.)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on July 01, 2020, 04:38:39 PM
Public health experts in the U.K. and Australia have expressed alarm at the move by the U.S. to purchase almost the entire global supply of a drug to treat the coronavirus.

Remdesivir, made by Gilead was originally trialled during the Ebola epidemic and is the first drug that has been approved by licensing authorities in the U.S. to treat COVID-19 after trials showed that it helped some recover from the disease more quickly.
The Trump administration has purchased more than 500,000 doses, which is all of Gilead's production of the drug for this month and 90 percent of its projected supply for August and September. It is made under patent to Gilead, at a cost of around $3,200 per treatment of six doses for richer countries

I understand wanting to seek out all options for battling a pandemic. Whether hydroxy, remdesivir, whatever.

But why spend all this money and also not pursue other avenues. Especially masks?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 01, 2020, 05:15:31 PM
Public health experts in the U.K. and Australia have expressed alarm at the move by the U.S. to purchase almost the entire global supply of a drug to treat the coronavirus.

Remdesivir, made by Gilead was originally trialled during the Ebola epidemic and is the first drug that has been approved by licensing authorities in the U.S. to treat COVID-19 after trials showed that it helped some recover from the disease more quickly.
The Trump administration has purchased more than 500,000 doses, which is all of Gilead's production of the drug for this month and 90 percent of its projected supply for August and September. It is made under patent to Gilead, at a cost of around $3,200 per treatment of six doses for richer countries


In addition to being a very selfish move by the administration, it might also come back and bite us in the a$$ if drugs or vaccines are developed by companies in other countries. Notably, the most promising vaccine candidates are made by Chinese companies. Might other countries band together and hoard initial supplies at our expense?

We have not taken part in collaborative efforts to develop treatments, we have pulled funding from the WHO, and now we're hoarding supplies of drugs. It would be hard to blame other countries from excluding us when their efforts pay off....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 02, 2020, 01:43:58 PM
Moderna, which had previously announced that its Phase III trial would begin on July 9, announced a delay in the start date to make changes to the protocol. They still hope to begin before the end of July.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/02/trial-of-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-delayed-investigators-say-but-july-start-still-possible/

Not a huge surprise, and not necessarily a red flag. I have worked with IRBs reviewing clinical trials for years, and last-minute changes to study protocols are quite commonplace. Often they relate to safety measures, timetables for assessing side effects, informed consent issues, etc. The only truly 'bad' news is that a delay in this high-profile trial probably looks negative to the general public, and might end the hope to get this out (if approved) before the end of the year.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 02, 2020, 04:09:43 PM
Moderna has never successfully brought a single product to market, right? Doesn't inspire confidence.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 02, 2020, 05:13:13 PM
Moderna has never successfully brought a single product to market, right? Doesn't inspire confidence.


Correct. Doesn't mean this won't be the one, but it certainly gives me pause.

My biggest concern is that the US seems to have put all its eggs on a few baskets...but specifically not the two Chinese vaccine candidates that I think are most promising.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 02, 2020, 05:15:01 PM

Correct. Doesn't mean this won't be the one, but it certainly gives me pause.

My biggest concern is that the US seems to have put all its eggs on a few baskets...but specifically not the two Chinese vaccine candidates that I think are most promising.

From what I have read this isn’t this case.  There are plenty in the race and the structure behind some of the Chinese vaccines are replicated by some American (And maybe Uk or eu) companies.  The Comment I heard was they will either all work or they all won’t. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 02, 2020, 05:56:39 PM
From what I have read this isn’t this case.  There are plenty in the race and the structure behind some of the Chinese vaccines are replicated by some American (And maybe Uk or eu) companies.  The Comment I heard was they will either all work or they all won’t.


It’s possible that they will all work or they all won’t...but if the vaccines aren’t identical there will still be varying degrees of antibody response and side effects that could lead to some being noticeably better than others.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on July 04, 2020, 12:17:43 PM
Moderna has never successfully brought a single product to market, right? Doesn't inspire confidence.

Most of their revenue is from collabs with Merek, AstraZeneca, and Vertex. Basically, Moderna licensing the findings of their mRNA research (https://www.modernatx.com/modernas-mrna-technology) so that those companies can create and commercialize treatments based on it. They're a player fo sho.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on July 12, 2020, 09:21:01 AM
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity

If true .. #EndTimes...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 12, 2020, 09:39:46 AM
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity

If true .. #EndTimes...

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/69616c12f93ca31ac3d67d9c5475b5c4/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 12, 2020, 11:07:29 AM
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity

If true .. #EndTimes...

Hm..  I don't doubt the storyis true, but it is possible his first positive test result was a false positive (mild cough, sore throat) and he's actually got covid-19 now.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on July 12, 2020, 11:38:35 AM
Hm..  I don't doubt the storyis true, but it is possible his first positive test result was a false positive (mild cough, sore throat) and he's actually got covid-19 now.

I don’t understand why there isn’t more research on this. Maybe it is just that what you are saying is the accepted scenario. And hopefully accurate.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 12, 2020, 11:48:32 AM
I don’t understand why there isn’t more research on this. Maybe it is just that what you are saying is the accepted scenario. And hopefully accurate.

I think it's very difficult to research in people because it's not happening much (at all?).  Also, those few that get it "a second time" don't have samples available from their first test / infection to verify.

The NIH had a study with 2 macaques monkeys (and other testing of patients), and determined reinfection is very unlikely.  Though some patients can remain "sick" for a long time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7255905/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2020, 12:00:47 PM
Hm..  I don't doubt the storyis true, but it is possible his first positive test result was a false positive (mild cough, sore throat) and he's actually got covid-19 now.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-woman-battling-coronavirus-again/2389265/

I think this case is the best evidence of multiple infections. Both times hospitalized. Not only positive tests both times, but positive antibody tests after the first bout (and donating plasma).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on July 12, 2020, 12:30:52 PM
But the article says that her doctors don’t believe it’s a new infection. They believe that the virus went dormant and then re-emerged. Which is also not a good scenario.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2020, 12:49:52 PM
But the article says that her doctors don’t believe it’s a new infection. They believe that the virus went dormant and then re-emerged. Which is also not a good scenario.

I think this is because there is no obvious source of a 2nd transmission.

Regardless, the presence of antibodies did not grant protection. Whether it is re-emergence, or re-infection is a moot point in regards to undetectable levels of virus, and the inability of antibodies to protect from serious illness.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Babybluejeans on July 12, 2020, 01:31:12 PM
If antibodies don’t confer immunity then the search for a vaccine is a fruitless effort and would also undermine most of what we know about virology in general. It’s highly doubtful there isn’t more to the story here.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 12, 2020, 02:53:39 PM
If antibodies don’t confer immunity then the search for a vaccine is a fruitless effort and would also undermine most of what we know about virology in general. It’s highly doubtful there isn’t more to the story here.

Gooo has touched on this before, but there is a very specific type of antibody that is believed to generate some degree/form of immunity. The Mayo Clinic is working on a test for those antibodies, and some companies are manufacturing those antibodies as possible treatments.

So if you can develop a vaccine, that elicits a very high and long lasting degree of those antibodies, a vaccine may prove useful. Not all the vaccines currently in development are equivalent in developing these antibodies.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 12, 2020, 08:30:44 PM
Gooo has touched on this before, but there is a very specific type of antibody that is believed to generate some degree/form of immunity. The Mayo Clinic is working on a test for those antibodies, and some companies are manufacturing those antibodies as possible treatments.

So if you can develop a vaccine, that elicits a very high and long lasting degree of those antibodies, a vaccine may prove useful. Not all the vaccines currently in development are equivalent in developing these antibodies.


That is still the current status as I understand it.

As you indicate, that doesn’t make it impossible to develop a useful vaccine, but it greatly reduces the odds of coming up with one soon.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 13, 2020, 11:20:26 AM
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is leading a Trump administration effort to demand the Food and Drug Administration reverse course and grant a second emergency authorization for the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine to treat covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on July 13, 2020, 12:42:30 PM
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is leading a Trump administration effort to demand the Food and Drug Administration reverse course and grant a second emergency authorization for the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine to treat covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.

Wtf.

Does someone in admin have ties to profit off this drug?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 13, 2020, 12:48:31 PM
Wtf.

Does someone in admin have ties to profit off this drug?


https://www.propublica.org/article/republican-billionaire-group-pushes-unproven-covid-19-treatment-trump-promoted

https://theweek.com/speedreads/907277/trump-small-personal-financial-interest-hydroxycholorquine-drugmaker-allies-have-bigger-stakes
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on July 13, 2020, 05:13:24 PM
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is leading a Trump administration effort to demand the Food and Drug Administration reverse course and grant a second emergency authorization for the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine to treat covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.

I’m just shocked that Navarro is doing something besides screaming and obsessing about China
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BM1090 on July 14, 2020, 04:09:59 PM
Good news, but a long way to go.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/moderna-says-its-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-produced-robust-immune-response-in-all-patients.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 14, 2020, 04:16:59 PM
Good news, but a long way to go.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/moderna-says-its-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-produced-robust-immune-response-in-all-patients.html

Good results, but I'm a bit confused. They say this is now the full data, but it seems to contradict some of their preliminary data released, where I don't believe they saw neutralizing antibodies in all groups. They also originally said due to side effects, they were going to cease the high-dose group/studies. But they report more and new results for that group.

I'll chalk that up to the prior release being incorrect, and solely to make money for the people that quickly sold options, and this release (which is suggested as peer reviewed), the more accurate one.

If so, good news.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 14, 2020, 04:38:09 PM
Good results, but I'm a bit confused. They say this is now the full data, but it seems to contradict some of their preliminary data released, where I don't believe they saw neutralizing antibodies in all groups. They also originally said due to side effects, they were going to cease the high-dose group/studies. But they report more and new results for that group.

I'll chalk that up to the prior release being incorrect, and solely to make money for the people that quickly sold options, and this release (which is suggested as peer reviewed), the more accurate one.

If so, good news.


Agreed. If the numbers hold up and the study gets through Phase III trials without bad side effects, it would be a big step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BM1090 on July 14, 2020, 04:40:28 PM
https://apnews.com/e4d5259bfc6c74fcb090d885737c55a6?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

Update with quotes from Dr. Fauci and a few other doctors.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on July 14, 2020, 05:02:56 PM
https://apnews.com/e4d5259bfc6c74fcb090d885737c55a6?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

Update with quotes from Dr. Fauci and a few other doctors.

Makes me feel better.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 15, 2020, 10:44:10 AM
Good news and less good news regarding the vaccine hunt.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z?

Infections with the original SARS generates significant immunity 17-years later. Evidence that infection with other coronaviruses may also provide some protection, particularly other beta-coronaviruses. The immunity is driven by T-cells which recognize some of the non-structural proteins that are conserved between the viruses.

Less good news. The Moderna vaccine has a poor (or absent) T-cell response. It is suggested that this is by design, as previous SARS vaccines that drive a robust T-cell response have significant side effects. But if the more robust immunity is being driven by the T-cells, then the design strategy of Moderna may not function well, or be particularly durable. Hopefully worst case that means getting a vaccine every year.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022483?


Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 15, 2020, 11:49:32 AM
Good news and less good news regarding the vaccine hunt.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z?

Infections with the original SARS generates significant immunity 17-years later. Evidence that infection with other coronaviruses may also provide some protection, particularly other beta-coronaviruses. The immunity is driven by T-cells which recognize some of the non-structural proteins that are conserved between the viruses.

Less good news. The Moderna vaccine has a poor (or absent) T-cell response. It is suggested that this is by design, as previous SARS vaccines that drive a robust T-cell response have significant side effects. But if the more robust immunity is being driven by the T-cells, then the design strategy of Moderna may not function well, or be particularly durable. Hopefully worst case that means getting a vaccine every year.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022483?

Or we start with #2 and later switch to a more robust vaccine for later shots. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MarquetteDano on July 15, 2020, 02:55:54 PM
Less good news. The Moderna vaccine has a poor (or absent) T-cell response. It is suggested that this is by design, as previous SARS vaccines that drive a robust T-cell response have significant side effects. But if the more robust immunity is being driven by the T-cells, then the design strategy of Moderna may not function well, or be particularly durable. Hopefully worst case that means getting a vaccine every year.

You had expressed concern earlier in this thread (though, could have been a similar thread) about Moderna's release of information very early in the process.  There are legitimate reasons sometimes why companies get out in front of news stories.

Well you may be proven right.  It sure seems like Moderna execs (i.e. insiders by SEC calculations) are doing a lot of selling of shares.  That isn't so unusual.... a lot of reasons to sell shares (too big a portion of portfoliio, tax reasons,  raise cash for a purchase of a house, etc.).   What is suspicious though is very few insiders seem to be buying shares outside of option exercising.  And only one reason to buy... knowing you will sell later at a higher price.

Perhaps the insiders know the news isn't all going to be good for them down the road?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
This sounds good.  I guess the Lancet will post data Monday. 

https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html (https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: cheebs09 on July 16, 2020, 11:44:53 AM
This sounds good.  I guess the Lancet will post data Monday. 

https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html (https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html)

Wow. Widely available in September? Is this far ahead of the Moderna vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2020, 11:51:23 AM
Wow. Widely available in September? Is this far ahead of the Moderna vaccine?

It seems like they pump the brakes a bit on that later in the article.  "most likely next year"
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on July 16, 2020, 12:33:56 PM
You had expressed concern earlier in this thread (though, could have been a similar thread) about Moderna's release of information very early in the process.  There are legitimate reasons sometimes why companies get out in front of news stories.

Well you may be proven right.  It sure seems like Moderna execs (i.e. insiders by SEC calculations) are doing a lot of selling of shares.  That isn't so unusual.... a lot of reasons to sell shares (too big a portion of portfoliio, tax reasons,  raise cash for a purchase of a house, etc.).   What is suspicious though is very few insiders seem to be buying shares outside of option exercising.  And only one reason to buy... knowing you will sell later at a higher price.

Perhaps the insiders know the news isn't all going to be good for them down the road?

If I worked there I'd sell, Moderna hasn't had a profitable year yet. It's unlikely that producing a vaccine will be a windfall for any company, and this pandemic has been great marketing for Moderna's brand and stock.  Also, they just went public late 2018 and this is the first time their stock popped (even though it was a pretty big IPO as far as biotechs go).

Their mRNA research hasn't yielded any marketable products yet, though other big boys in biotech have licensed their research which has generated a little revenue for them.

Again, no clear reason to buy or even hold Moderna unless you really believe that their mRNA research is going to turn them into a huge player. Right now their market cap is already 1/3 of Gilead's, which is a little nuts. Gilead prints money.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 16, 2020, 12:53:36 PM
Wow. Widely available in September? Is this far ahead of the Moderna vaccine?


If it was actually available by September - yes, it would beat Moderna by at least six months.

My guess is that a cautiously optimistic estimate would be early 2021 for both...if everything goes well in their studies.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 16, 2020, 01:01:40 PM
This sounds good.  I guess the Lancet will post data Monday. 

https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html (https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html)
IIRC, the Oxford group had a leg up because their vaccine had already previously been shown to be safe long term.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 16, 2020, 03:53:08 PM
You had expressed concern earlier in this thread (though, could have been a similar thread) about Moderna's release of information very early in the process.  There are legitimate reasons sometimes why companies get out in front of news stories.

Well you may be proven right.  It sure seems like Moderna execs (i.e. insiders by SEC calculations) are doing a lot of selling of shares.  That isn't so unusual.... a lot of reasons to sell shares (too big a portion of portfoliio, tax reasons,  raise cash for a purchase of a house, etc.).   What is suspicious though is very few insiders seem to be buying shares outside of option exercising.  And only one reason to buy... knowing you will sell later at a higher price.

Perhaps the insiders know the news isn't all going to be good for them down the road?
Skatastrophy already hit some of the main points.

The problem with vaccines is that they are not really profitable. If it works properly, you very quickly do not have much of a product to sell. The best case from a revenue perspective would be for this to need to be administered regularly (not a 1-off). But even then, there is so much competition right now, where they are all largely using similar technology, that no one will corner the market.

On top of that there are public pushes to minimize profit off these vaccines since they are so heavily financed by the taxpayer.

All that combines to leave Moderna few options for long-term growth/profits from these discoveries. So, cashing out now based on a bit of hysteria, makes a lot of sense.

It is also interesting to see, again, that right after Moderna releases this data, more promising results come out of other groups. In this case the Oxford studies, where they saw a robust T-cell response. That is promising in relation to other studies saying any long-term immunity will necessitate a robust T-cell response.

I'm just excited that we are seeing promising results from multiple efforts. A bit concerned about Moderna's safety profile though, especially when they put this in people over the age of 55 (haven't done so yet).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2020, 06:48:39 PM
Wow.  They look to be pursuing a challenge trial. 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on July 16, 2020, 07:22:21 PM
Wow.  They look to be pursuing a challenge trial. 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial)

Where do we sign up? I have a list of people I’d like to volunteer.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 16, 2020, 07:37:56 PM
Skatastrophy already hit some of the main points.

The problem with vaccines is that they are not really profitable. If it works properly, you very quickly do not have much of a product to sell. The best case from a revenue perspective would be for this to need to be administered regularly (not a 1-off). But even then, there is so much competition right now, where they are all largely using similar technology, that no one will corner the market.

On top of that there are public pushes to minimize profit off these vaccines since they are so heavily financed by the taxpayer.

All that combines to leave Moderna few options for long-term growth/profits from these discoveries. So, cashing out now based on a bit of hysteria, makes a lot of sense.

It is also interesting to see, again, that right after Moderna releases this data, more promising results come out of other groups. In this case the Oxford studies, where they saw a robust T-cell response. That is promising in relation to other studies saying any long-term immunity will necessitate a robust T-cell response.

I'm just excited that we are seeing promising results from multiple efforts. A bit concerned about Moderna's safety profile though, especially when they put this in people over the age of 55 (haven't done so yet).


Agreed on all points. I am much more optimistic about the Oxford vaccine because of the T-cell response you mentioned. Not that the Moderna one is doomed to failure, but it has a fair bit left to prove.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Pakuni on July 17, 2020, 02:34:48 PM
Not good, Bob.
Antibodies appear to be short-lived.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/With-coronavirus-antibodies-fading-fast-focus-15414533.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 07:38:24 AM
Interesting discussion of getting immunity to the right point of the body.  Our local Yale virologist is quoted. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
Not good, Bob.
Antibodies appear to be short-lived.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/With-coronavirus-antibodies-fading-fast-focus-15414533.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

Everything I’ve read over the last week or so seems to point to this being an attention getting headline, but not exactly how things work.  I guess we should not necessarily worry about this and immediately connect it to short lived immunity.  More to come I’m sure. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 20, 2020, 07:44:07 AM
Everything I’ve read over the last week or so seems to point to this being an attention getting headline, but not exactly how things work.  I guess we should not necessarily worry about this and immediately connect it to short lived immunity.  More to come I’m sure.


Agreed - this is not good news, as it increases the likelihood that it will take longer than we'd like to have this 'past' us. All the more reason to significantly pull back reopening in states seeing surges, and mandate masks and social distancing everywhere.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Big Papi on July 20, 2020, 08:50:34 AM
Not good, Bob.
Antibodies appear to be short-lived.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/With-coronavirus-antibodies-fading-fast-focus-15414533.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 20, 2020, 09:10:24 AM
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity

That's encouraging.  One vaccine may be short lived but a t-cell one longer lasting.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Pakuni on July 20, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
https://www.cnn.com/webview/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-07-20-20-intl/h_92484624cf1b46c956eb665b422c7b09
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 09:31:02 AM
Links and comment for the vaccine data released today (Oxford & CanSino)

https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21 (https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 10:53:55 AM
Links and comment for the vaccine data released today (Oxford & CanSino)

https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21 (https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21)

Right now these are the two vaccines I'm most excited/optimistic about. As I mentioned previously, their T-cell response (absent in the Modern vaccine candidate) is an important aspect of potential utility.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 11:01:54 AM
Right now these are the two vaccines I'm most excited/optimistic about. As I mentioned previously, their T-cell response (absent in the Modern vaccine candidate) is an important aspect of potential utility.

Step 2 is scale up
Step 3 is getting people injected (good luck with some folks)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Step 2 is scale up
Step 3 is getting people injected (good luck with some folks)

I still have concerns on what we will see in the phase 3 trials in Brazil.  What happens when a person is exposed to SARS-CoV2 after getting these vaccines. Some previous SARS candidate vaccines ended up causing more severe illnesses. It seems, at least possibly, Moderna used their strategy to avoid some T-cell responses to avoid such a scenario.

We need to see what happens in exposed individuals.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 11:26:30 AM
I still have concerns on what we will see in the phase 3 trials in Brazil.  What happens when a person is exposed to SARS-CoV2 after getting these vaccines. Some previous SARS candidate vaccines ended up causing more severe illnesses. It seems, at least possibly, Moderna used their strategy to avoid some T-cell responses to avoid such a scenario.

We need to see what happens in exposed individuals.

Might we see a world where we take the first available vaccine to slow this down significantly, while waiting for a better vaccine to confer better immunity in the long term?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 11:50:41 AM
Step 2 is scale up
Step 3 is getting people injected (good luck with some folks)

I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means.  But if I think they've rushed something out, I'll wait 6 months before getting an injection.  I'll still be cautious about interactions with people in the meantime.  I'm not judging anybody that chooses to wait a bit if a vaccine is out late this year/early next.  That's a ridiculously fast timeline to be "fully vetted"
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 12:00:18 PM
I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means.  But if I think they've rushed something out, I'll wait 6 months before getting an injection.  I'll still be cautious about interactions with people in the meantime.  I'm not judging anybody that chooses to wait a bit if a vaccine is out late this year/early next.  That's a ridiculously fast timeline to be "fully vetted"

Problem is if everyone makes the same decision we are screwed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 20, 2020, 12:09:24 PM
I'll go first.  Someone has to.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 12:13:04 PM
Can I get all of them?

Honestly Rocky the same thought has crossed my mind, specifically with the political desire to announce something successful within a certain timeframe.  I am watching the commentary from doctors after phase 3 trials, and if they seem convinced, I'm in.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 12:15:58 PM
Might we see a world where we take the first available vaccine to slow this down significantly, while waiting for a better vaccine to confer better immunity in the long term?

I think this is exactly what we will see. If we have something that is 40-50% effective, places like NY will then be already at "herd immunity".

If we can find something upwards of 70% effective, and proven safe for everyone under 65 (arbitrary cutoff). We are still good at achieving herd immunity, with largely no restrictions.

The threshold for herd-immunity for COVID should be roughly in the 50-70% range (based on 1 - 1/R0) and assuming an R0 of 2-3.

Even something that is introduced and induces 25% overall immunity (so not 100% effective, and not 100% buy-in), would likely get us to a point where the combined effects of masks, no bars/dine-in restaurants) could eradicate the virus.

We do not need 100% effectiveness. We do need it to be proven safe though.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 12:24:53 PM
Problem is if everyone makes the same decision we are screwed.

I'd argue, if everyone makes the exact same decisions as me - we're in great shape.  Masks everywhere, social distancing, very little contact with others. 

But I understand your sentiment. 

Honestly Rocky the same thought has crossed my mind, specifically with the political desire to announce something successful within a certain timeframe.  I am watching the commentary from doctors after phase 3 trials, and if they seem convinced, I'm in.

I do agree with this - I did specifically say if *I* think it's been rushed out.  It''ll be a personal judgement, and I don't fault anyone for making it (Though if they don't take it, I also hope they're very careful like me)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on July 20, 2020, 12:58:56 PM
I'd argue, if everyone makes the exact same decisions as me - we're in great shape.  Masks everywhere, social distancing, very little contact with others. 

But I understand your sentiment.

I respect our caution and your perspective, but let’s say you have a vaccine by Christmas. You’re talking mid 2021, aka another full year of expecting/asking people to mask up and socially distance. That’s a pretty big ask/hope if that’s how it’s gonna be beaten.  Unless I am misunderstanding

You’ve been reasonable even when we disagree, so I’m not coming at you, but I’m just very curious on peoples perceptions of what they’d be “ok” with indefinitely if that’s the case.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 01:03:16 PM
Wags.  No one is talking about this yet (public policy wise), but you can have a vaccine and still need some of the measures you referenced.   

I don’t know if I’m ok or not ok with it but if you have only a partially effective vaccine you can still have problematic levels of spread. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 20, 2020, 01:12:15 PM
I think once we have a vaccine that works even as good as the flu vaccine, the whole masking and social distancing thing will go away pretty quickly.  People will still get sick, but the numbers will fall off and serious spikes will be isolated and no longer all that newsworthy.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BM1090 on July 20, 2020, 01:49:51 PM
I'll go first.  Someone has to.

Likewise. I was considering participating in a phase three trial.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Big Papi on July 20, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
I think once we have a vaccine that works even as good as the flu vaccine, the whole masking and social distancing thing will go away pretty quickly.  People will still get sick, but the numbers will fall off and serious spikes will be isolated and no longer all that newsworthy.

Treatments are just as important.  Treatments that decrease deaths and need for ventilators and need for hospitalization in combination with a vaccine will be the key.  Lots of good info on treatments starting to come out. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on July 20, 2020, 02:19:26 PM
I respect our caution and your perspective, but let’s say you have a vaccine by Christmas. You’re talking mid 2021, aka another full year of expecting/asking people to mask up and socially distance. That’s a pretty big ask/hope if that’s how it’s gonna be beaten.  Unless I am misunderstanding

I'm not expert, but I believe you're overestimating how quickly vaccines can be produced at scale and rolled out. Another year of social distancing is inevitable. The fastest multi-country new vaccine rollout in history took 2.5 years, and that was the new polio vaccine (so a well-known disease with a new variation of an existing vaccine).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 20, 2020, 02:56:48 PM
I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means.  But if I think they've rushed something out, I'll wait 6 months before getting an injection.  I'll still be cautious about interactions with people in the meantime.  I'm not judging anybody that chooses to wait a bit if a vaccine is out late this year/early next.  That's a ridiculously fast timeline to be "fully vetted"
If I am recalling correctly, the Oxford vaccine had gone through trials previously and been deemed safe long-term, so sign me up for that one.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 02:58:14 PM
I think once we have a vaccine that works even as good as the flu vaccine, the whole masking and social distancing thing will go away pretty quickly.  People will still get sick, but the numbers will fall off and serious spikes will be isolated and no longer all that newsworthy.

Once we have one as effective and it’s in enough arms...

That’s more why I said what I said. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on July 20, 2020, 04:37:34 PM
Yeah, going "first" is uncomfortable.

You know what I think I'll do?  Ask my doctor.  That guy knows medical stuff. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on July 20, 2020, 04:41:26 PM
Yeah, going "first" is uncomfortable.

You know what I think I'll do?  Ask my doctor.  That guy knows medical stuff.

Not as much as the guy from my high school class who got a "C" in science freshman year and didn't even take the upper level high school science classes.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on July 20, 2020, 04:43:50 PM
I'll go first.  Someone has to.
I will be in line 6 feet behind you.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 05:13:28 PM
If/when a vaccine is available. I encourage anyone getting it to get it in the morning, after at least 1-week of regular sleep cycles.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on July 20, 2020, 05:50:44 PM
If/when a vaccine is available. I encourage anyone getting it to get it in the morning, after at least 1-week of regular sleep cycles.

Why?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 20, 2020, 06:01:27 PM
Might we see a world where we take the first available vaccine to slow this down significantly, while waiting for a better vaccine to confer better immunity in the long term?

Definitely.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 20, 2020, 07:05:32 PM
Why?

Studies in recent years have shown that antibody response tends to be greater in the morning than later in the day, and that healthy sleep patterns increase the effectiveness of vaccines. A couple of examples:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874947/

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/08/12458/sleep-affects-potency-vaccines
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on July 20, 2020, 07:39:22 PM
I’ve been flexing since March keeping that one good vein popping.

Let’s go science, save the world again.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 07:45:16 PM
I respect our caution and your perspective, but let’s say you have a vaccine by Christmas. You’re talking mid 2021, aka another full year of expecting/asking people to mask up and socially distance. That’s a pretty big ask/hope if that’s how it’s gonna be beaten.  Unless I am misunderstanding

You’ve been reasonable even when we disagree, so I’m not coming at you, but I’m just very curious on peoples perceptions of what they’d be “ok” with indefinitely if that’s the case.

Yeah, I guess I'm mostly expecting masking for another year regardless.  Now that I've acquired enough masks that fit comfortably, and for enough situations (cloth/disposable for around town, N95 for planes and airports) they don't bother me much at all. 

And I'm *very* cautious, but I think I've been a little more "risky" than some here.  I've been on 6 planes since May 1, another two coming up in the next couple weeks.  Even stayed in a hotel for a couple nights.  Masked up with N95 for the entire plane ride - and it was fine.

But beside that, as Skat said - new vaccines don't happen quickly (and I realize, there is a renewed focus here), but large trials usually go for 18 months (unless they stop early due to bad side effects).  But also, why I said  leave it up to my own research.  I'm not a doctor, but I have studied the FDA approval process for a few drugs (meetings where experts question the results of drug trials from the company that presented the results).  I'd be looking into that for a vaccine that gets approved.  If they skip the scrutiny - I'm waiting.  If they have it, I'll try to follow along and make my decision.

If I am recalling correctly, the Oxford vaccine had gone through trials previously and been deemed safe long-term, so sign me up for that one.

I've heard the Oxford mentioned a bunch, but haven't looked into it yet.  Thanks.  I'll do some due diligence. They UK has a different drug review process - and I'm not familiar with it. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on July 20, 2020, 07:52:29 PM
Studies in recent years have shown that antibody response tends to be greater in the morning than later in the day, and that healthy sleep patterns increase the effectiveness of vaccines. A couple of examples:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874947/

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/08/12458/sleep-affects-potency-vaccines

Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on July 20, 2020, 07:53:55 PM
Rocky, where did you acquire the N95 masks? Online seems like a crap shoot.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 07:57:03 PM
If I am recalling correctly, the Oxford vaccine had gone through trials previously and been deemed safe long-term, so sign me up for that one.

I think this is AZD1222 (Oxford-AstraZeneca colab).  They've gone through a phase 2 trial (~1000 people) with good results.  The phase 3 is usually ~10,000 but they've got a bunch more signed up.  That's good.  Still, probably not available until next year though.


https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/20/study-provides-first-glimpse-of-efficacy-of-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine/
Quote
AstraZeneca and Oxford announced their partnership on the vaccine on April 30. A 10,000-patient study testing the vaccine is being run in the United Kingdom, and a separate 5,000-patient test began in Brazil in June. Soriot, the AstraZeneca CEO, said that phase 3 results could become available in September, October, or November.


Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 08:04:38 PM
Rocky, where did you acquire the N95 masks? Online seems like a crap shoot.

Hah, I bough a 3M ten pack years ago for home improvement (asthma/old houses/lead/asbestos concerns).  So I was lucky to have legit ones on hand (but only 3 left, and given the age, probably not good enough for hospital use).

I've since picked up some of the KN95 labeled cone style (Ace usually has these).  I doubt they're medically certified, but construction seems good enough to be effective.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 09:26:46 PM
Studies in recent years have shown that antibody response tends to be greater in the morning than later in the day, and that healthy sleep patterns increase the effectiveness of vaccines. A couple of examples:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874947/

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/08/12458/sleep-affects-potency-vaccines

Thanks for getting to this.

I'll note the reason I specifically recommend it for these vaccines is that they are unlikely to provide 100% protection, so anything one can do to boost effectiveness will be important.

The correlation between our daily rhythms and our immune response are strong, and there is ample evidence that this carries over into vaccine responses.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 20, 2020, 10:22:25 PM
I think this is AZD1222 (Oxford-AstraZeneca colab).  They've gone through a phase 2 trial (~1000 people) with good results.  The phase 3 is usually ~10,000 but they've got a bunch more signed up.  That's good.  Still, probably not available until next year though.


https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/20/study-provides-first-glimpse-of-efficacy-of-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine/
Found the original story from the end of April, copied below. But maybe the one with AZ is different?

In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead

"Most other teams have had to start with small clinical trials of a few hundred participants to demonstrate safety. But scientists at the university’s Jenner Institute had a head start on a vaccine, having proved in previous trials that similar inoculations — including one last year against an earlier coronavirus — were harmless to humans.

"That has enabled them to leap ahead and schedule tests of their new coronavirus vaccine involving more than 6,000 people by the end of next month, hoping to show not only that it is safe, but also that it works.

"Scientists at the National Institutes of Health’s Rocky Mountain Laboratory in Montana last month inoculated six rhesus macaque monkeys with single doses of the Oxford vaccine. The animals were then exposed to heavy quantities of the virus that is causing the pandemic — exposure that had consistently sickened other monkeys in the lab. But more than 28 days later all six were healthy, said Vincent Munster, the researcher who conducted the test."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/world/europe/coronavirus-vaccine-update-oxford.html?campaign_id=168&emc=edit_NN_p_20200428&instance_id=17997&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=98421546&section=topNews&segment_id=26118&te=1&user_id=65badcb7c07b4cd4815fe5e758510381
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on July 20, 2020, 10:26:08 PM
I'm not expert, but I believe you're overestimating how quickly vaccines can be produced at scale and rolled out. Another year of social distancing is inevitable. The fastest multi-country new vaccine rollout in history took 2.5 years, and that was the new polio vaccine (so a well-known disease with a new variation of an existing vaccine).

I’m not over estimating, much like Hards alluded to, I’m trying to figure out what a word with a vaccine, even early stages or initial roll outs would look like for people and their risk management.

Yeah, I guess I'm mostly expecting masking for another year regardless.  Now that I've acquired enough masks that fit comfortably, and for enough situations (cloth/disposable for around town, N95 for planes and airports) they don't bother me much at all. 

And I'm *very* cautious, but I think I've been a little more "risky" than some here.  I've been on 6 planes since May 1, another two coming up in the next couple weeks.  Even stayed in a hotel for a couple nights.  Masked up with N95 for the entire plane ride - and it was fine.

Appreciate it. I think the concerning thing here is the populous is sufficiently freaked out, right or wrong, that even with masking and social distancing, we have so much amended behavior and caution that economic ripples are still coming.

I’m not seeing discretionary spending returning for big ticket items any time soon. Coming to grips with my business likely being DOA and realizing that even if we had deaths flattening out to near nothing, until we get preventative options in place we’re gonna have general economic malaise for anything non-essential retail.

Your point about flying is interesting, cause based on a flight I took in June and second hand accounts from other people, I think with proper precautions flying is pretty manageable safe. But the sentiment has gotten so pervasive whether it be empirical, on travel websites, etc... that flying is reckless and selfish and irresponsible till we have a vaccine.  That’s gonna have a trickle effect to perceptions of business travel, especially international even if American bans are lifted, and that’s a whole nother set of concerns. The novelty of Zoom or BlueJeans has wore off.  I’m seeing gaps in the communication flows in the absence of trips that aren’t being picked in other “virtual” ways.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 20, 2020, 11:36:45 PM
I’m not over estimating, much like Hards alluded to, I’m trying to figure out what a word with a vaccine, even early stages or initial roll outs would look like for people and their risk management.



Any thoughts from you guys in the know how a vaccine developed in another country would affect us?

We are pretty much going it alone on a vaccine and I wonder where in the pecking order we would be if it is developed elsewhere. I’m guessing they would take care of themselves first, but would they share their findings with us? I’m guessing yes, but I don’t know how this works with proprietary products.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 21, 2020, 12:08:17 AM
Any thoughts from you guys in the know how a vaccine developed in another country would affect us?

We are pretty much going it alone on a vaccine and I wonder where in the pecking order we would be if it is developed elsewhere. I’m guessing they would take care of themselves first, but would they share their findings with us? I’m guessing yes, but I don’t know how this works with proprietary products.

Depends which one we are talking about. The Oxford one, we invested $1.2B in its development and have 300 million doses on priority delivery.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca/us-secures-300-million-doses-of-potential-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-idUSKBN22X0J9

If we are talking about the China vaccine candidate, I think we are SOL, we burned that bridge.

The big wrinkle in all of this could be that the bulk of production is in India. And if come fall, things are really bad there, they could sequester all doses until their population is treated first. That could get interesting.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 21, 2020, 12:09:09 AM
Any thoughts from you guys in the know how a vaccine developed in another country would affect us?

We are pretty much going it alone on a vaccine and I wonder where in the pecking order we would be if it is developed elsewhere. I’m guessing they would take care of themselves first, but would they share their findings with us? I’m guessing yes, but I don’t know how this works with proprietary products.


From a strictly regulatory perspective...if there is a market for it (and there will be for this), they will apply for approval by the FDA. This happens quite regularly with drugs that are developed and first approved overseas. The FDA has its own independent approval process, but it would take seriously any prior approval by a reputable regulatory authority elsewhere. The would likely go through the EMA and the MRHA (the EU & UK counterparts of FDA).

For those concerned about the ‘quick’ approval, this might give an extra measure of confidence.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 21, 2020, 12:54:38 AM
Gracias, Goo & Forgetful.

Covered it from two different angles. Lots of knowledgeable Scoopers on this board.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 21, 2020, 07:27:51 AM
Interesting note re the CanSino vaccine candidate:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/20/study-provides-first-glimpse-of-efficacy-of-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine/

"The Lancet also published results of another vaccine, from the Chinese biotech CanSino, that had been previously released. The Phase 2 results showed that, as was seen in the Phase 1 data, the vaccine induced neutralizing antibody responses — which could be vital to preventing the disease’s dangerous symptoms — in most subjects. But further study continues to show that this vaccine works better in some people than others. And among those it didn’t work as well in were people aged 55 and older, a key target for Covid-19 vaccination."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on July 21, 2020, 08:48:04 AM
I’m not over estimating, much like Hards alluded to, I’m trying to figure out what a word with a vaccine, even early stages or initial roll outs would look like for people and their risk management.

Yep, that's what the "2.5 years to rollout a vaccine" was referring to. That's after the vaccine was created and in production.

Getting a vaccination machinations in place worldwide is quite the ordeal. The timeline to the vaccine is probably 6 months to a year, but we may have a long time to go with social distancing and mask wearing guidelines.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 21, 2020, 09:40:50 AM
Another question.

How long will be necessary to determine both dosage amounts and whether a booster will be needed? I’m guessing that would be the next step after determining whether a vaccine is effective.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on July 21, 2020, 10:05:03 AM
Yep, that's what the "2.5 years to rollout a vaccine" was referring to. That's after the vaccine was created and in production.

Getting a vaccination machinations in place worldwide is quite the ordeal. The timeline to the vaccine is probably 6 months to a year, but we may have a long time to go with social distancing and mask wearing guidelines.

Understood. As I mention, if this is indeed the case, the economic disaster is only beginning.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 21, 2020, 10:27:52 AM
Yep, that's what the "2.5 years to rollout a vaccine" was referring to. That's after the vaccine was created and in production.

Getting a vaccination machinations in place worldwide is quite the ordeal. The timeline to the vaccine is probably 6 months to a year, but we may have a long time to go with social distancing and mask wearing guidelines.

The time to rollout a vaccine also depends on the platform it is based off of. I believe that the technology that the leading vaccine candidates are built on can scale faster and should lead to a shorter time period for rollout.

The limiting factor may actually end up being delivery devices, not the vaccine itself.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 21, 2020, 10:43:00 AM
Understood. As I mention, if this is indeed the case, the economic disaster is only beginning.

The economic disaster is going to get worse before it gets better.  With the virus not being managed well, there will continue to be higher unemployment and lower levels of economic activity.

Furthermore, while K-12 and higher education institutions WANT to start in person, it is looking increasingly unlikely that many districts will last through the fall in person.  I think the psychological impact of this will be huge.  And will significantly impact the holiday season. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on July 21, 2020, 11:33:28 AM
The economic disaster is going to get worse before it gets better.  With the virus not being managed well, there will continue to be higher unemployment and lower levels of economic activity.

Furthermore, while K-12 and higher education institutions WANT to start in person, it is looking increasingly unlikely that many districts will last through the fall in person.  I think the psychological impact of this will be huge.  And will significantly impact the holiday season.

Yep, that’s my biggest concern.  I think the psychology of everything is starting to take a life of its own, beyond treatment options or numbers specific to a persons geography.   And that’s very bad for things that rely on positive consumer sentiment
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 21, 2020, 01:25:47 PM
The economic disaster is going to get worse before it gets better.  With the virus not being managed well, there will continue to be higher unemployment and lower levels of economic activity.

Furthermore, while K-12 and higher education institutions WANT to start in person, it is looking increasingly unlikely that many districts will last through the fall in person.  I think the psychological impact of this will be huge.  And will significantly impact the holiday season.


Agreed on all levels.

Regarding the psychological impact, I suspect the mental trauma of prolonged uncertainty and isolation will long outlive the pandemic. And the quandary about reopening schools with the very real possibility that they might need to be shut down again begs an interesting question: Which is worse for kids - the isolation of being away from their friends and teachers for prolonged periods, or the uncertainty of repeatedly switching back and forth between open and closed schools. I don't know the answer to this question, but hopefully school districts are getting the input of psychiatrists and psychologists to consider this factor.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GBPhoenix1993 on July 21, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
Treatments are just as important.  Treatments that decrease deaths and need for ventilators and need for hospitalization in combination with a vaccine will be the key.  Lots of good info on treatments starting to come out.

I totally agree that better immediate treatments upon diagnosis may turn out to be the faster and better way to deal with this.  A combination of both better treatments plus vaccines would be ideal.  Right now certain steroids and Remdesivir are the only semi-effective treatments, but they aren't great, and hopefully some of the other ones in testing right now will be significantly better. 

I want to see this disease get managed to the point that the deaths, hospitalizations, and serious side effects are down to a bad flu level or something better.  We never shut things down for the 2017-2018 flu and that's the benchmark I want to see before we can consider this thing "controlled".  Right now, it's way worse than that 2017-18 flu, but if enough treatments and vaccines are created to get this down to that level or better, at that point we go back to "business as usual".  Business as usual to me means nothing shutdown and large gatherings allowed without worry. 

My optimistic hope is that we get there by March 2021.  Maybe I'm crazy for being that optimistic, but I see enough promise in treatments being developed that maybe by then this thing is under control.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 21, 2020, 02:00:41 PM
I think there will be a big effect on adults as well. And that certainly relates to the economy. Too many families were caught cash-short when the shutdown started. I think getting a nest egg will become priority for many families over short term spending.

I stand by my 2-3 year prediction for the economy to get back to some sort is pre-pandemic levels.

But a bad 2nd wave could increase the time. That is a very real possibility considering this is America. Even in states like California and Ohio that did a great job early, things are getting really bad.

The mitigating factor is a vaccine. It’s effectiveness will determine whether we slowly start moving to normal or do a 180 toward a major depression.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on July 21, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
Looks like the front-runner vaccines will include a few days of feeling pretty crappy.  Not the worst trade-off, but might deter folks too (ignore the headline, it's a fairly balanced writeup):

https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-with-minor-side-effects-could-still-be-pretty-bad/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 21, 2020, 05:07:38 PM
Looks like the front-runner vaccines will include a few days of feeling pretty crappy.  Not the worst trade-off, but might deter folks too (ignore the headline, it's a fairly balanced writeup):

https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-with-minor-side-effects-could-still-be-pretty-bad/

Honesty.

It’s what was lacking from our leaders. Let’s hope the creators of the vaccines are more open. If they aren’t and stories get out about side effects, we’d be lucky to get 50% participation.

Side effects + no long term testing could prolong the pandemic. More honesty = greater participation.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on July 22, 2020, 08:54:04 AM
U.S. paying Pfizer $1.95 billion for 100 million doses of their vaccine. May buy up to 600 million doses.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-07-22/pfizer-in-pact-with-u-s-for-100-million-covid-19-vaccine-doses-kcx9x3ww?__twitter_impression=true

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-07-22/pfizer-in-pact-with-u-s-for-100-million-covid-19-vaccine-doses-kcx9x3ww?__twitter_impression=true

It's being manufactured at the Pfizer St. Louis facility. SLU appears to be testing Moderna's vaccine. Not sure about Wash U. You can go to clinicaltrials.gov

https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/washu-and-slu-announce-covid-19-vaccine-trials-in-st-louis/article_86b4031d-274a-53e3-8995-146bc3bc8418.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on July 22, 2020, 09:38:27 AM
Not a good sign for herd immunity

Rapid Decay of Anti–SARS-CoV-2 Antibodies in Persons with Mild Covid-1

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2025179

Our findings raise concern that humoral immunity against SARS-CoV-2 may not be long lasting in persons with mild illness, who compose the majority of persons with Covid-19. It is difficult to extrapolate beyond our observation period of approximately 90 days because it is likely that the decay will decelerate.3 Still, the results call for caution regarding antibody-based “immunity passports,” herd immunity, and perhaps vaccine durability, especially in light of short-lived immunity against common human coronaviruses. Further studies will be needed to define a quantitative protection threshold and rate of decline of antiviral antibodies beyond 90 days.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 22, 2020, 09:44:42 AM
I would be cautious with running with these anti-body studies from what I have read - at least extrapolate it to 'how long immunity lasts'. 

The answer from what I gather is that no one knows yet and the fact that anti-bodies decay does not answer that question yet...despite many headlines trying to take it there.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 22, 2020, 09:46:22 AM
By the way if anyone wants to claim they stayed in a holiday Inn last night re: immunology.  Here is a great thread and short video. 

https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1285944893085491204?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1285944893085491204?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 22, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
For those possibly interested in getting in on a trial.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/clinical-trials/vaccine-research-center-clinical-studies

Sign up.

I would possibly consider it, if I knew I would get the vaccine and not a placebo.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on July 22, 2020, 12:44:20 PM
I would be cautious with running with these anti-body studies from what I have read - at least extrapolate it to 'how long immunity lasts'. 

The answer from what I gather is that no one knows yet and the fact that anti-bodies decay does not answer that question yet...despite many headlines trying to take it there.

Exactly. This is one more reason that vaccines take so long to develop and test in normal circumstances.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 22, 2020, 12:44:53 PM
For those possibly interested in getting in on a trial.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/clinical-trials/vaccine-research-center-clinical-studies

Sign up.

I would possibly consider it, if I knew I would get the vaccine and not a placebo.
Hey fortgetful, what is the status of your friend who was working on creating antibodies in volume?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 22, 2020, 12:49:03 PM
Pfizer hopes to get emergency approval by October

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/07/22/coronavirus-covid-19-and-vaccines-trump-masks-and-ex-cdc-director/5484636002/

"Pfizer and BioNTech announced a deal with the federal government for 100 million doses of their vaccine candidate once the companies obtain approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Americans will receive the vaccine for free, the firms said. If the ongoing studies are successful, Pfizer and BioNTech expect to be ready to seek Emergency Use Authorization or some form of regulatory approval as early as October."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 22, 2020, 01:15:56 PM
Pfizer hopes to get emergency approval by October

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/07/22/coronavirus-covid-19-and-vaccines-trump-masks-and-ex-cdc-director/5484636002/

"Pfizer and BioNTech announced a deal with the federal government for 100 million doses of their vaccine candidate once the companies obtain approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Americans will receive the vaccine for free, the firms said. If the ongoing studies are successful, Pfizer and BioNTech expect to be ready to seek Emergency Use Authorization or some form of regulatory approval as early as October."


For what it's worth, I would not be confident getting a vaccine that has been approved through the EUA process. It was created by FDA to grant expedited 'approval' for products that might save the lives of people who are critically ill. As such, the approval criteria are more vague and lax than the 'safe and effective' standard required for standard approval.

I think EUA was totally appropriate for Remdesovir, because that is now used in patients who are already critically ill with COVID, and as such are willing to face some additional risk.

I don't think the same can be said for a vaccine, which by definition is given to healthy individuals.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 22, 2020, 01:49:21 PM
Pfizer hopes to get emergency approval by October

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/07/22/coronavirus-covid-19-and-vaccines-trump-masks-and-ex-cdc-director/5484636002/

"Pfizer and BioNTech announced a deal with the federal government for 100 million doses of their vaccine candidate once the companies obtain approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Americans will receive the vaccine for free, the firms said. If the ongoing studies are successful, Pfizer and BioNTech expect to be ready to seek Emergency Use Authorization or some form of regulatory approval as early as October."

This seems to fall clearly into what Rocky was calling out earlier.  It would be interesting analysis to find out if rushed approval results in more immunizations over a 6-9 month period vs. getting the 30K plus through a phase 3 trial and then starting.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on July 22, 2020, 02:10:42 PM
This seems to fall clearly into what Rocky was calling out earlier.  It would be interesting analysis to find out if rushed approval results in more immunizations over a 6-9 month period vs. getting the 30K plus through a phase 3 trial and then starting.
Yeah, I personally am going to be pretty cautious with a vaccine that was rushed, unless like the Oxford one it had preciously been deemed safe long term.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 22, 2020, 02:24:38 PM
Hey fortgetful, what is the status of your friend who was working on creating antibodies in volume?

It'll come down to two things.

1. Are these antibodies being used as treatments (less needed) or prophylactic. If we are using these in lieu of a vaccine as a protection before being infected, they probably can't handle the scale. The vaccines, depending on which is the winner, are going to be much easier to produce on scale. If we are only using them as treatments, they should be able to handle the scales needed.

2. Results from the antibody trials. We have to hope that the antibodies that have been selected as either monoclonals, or cocktails, are the best/right antibodies. There are reasonable ways to produce the antibodies on scale now, but the problem is there is a bit of a lead time to get to industrial scale. Those "lead times" phases are in progress, so if they are right on the antibody treatments, we should be good to go on scale. My personal preference for methods are using tobacco to produce antibodies on scale. Much cheaper than alternative methods.

There are potential efficacy problems with using plant derived antibodies though. So again, needs to be resolved in testing first. Good news is there are several different platforms in testing around the world, so let's just hope that whichever is most effective is also ready to go in terms of scaling.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 22, 2020, 07:48:16 PM
Hey fortgetful, what is the status of your friend who was working on creating antibodies in volume?

An additional aspect of this. He was pretty certain that China would be ahead of the game here, for various reasons. That may not necessarily be the case, as China seems to be pivoting to a vaccine emphasis. They are already inoculating their military with their top vaccine candidate.

That may slow their development/emphasis in the antibody market.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on July 27, 2020, 08:32:02 AM
Next phase of Moderna study begins today, 30,000 patients for the next several months...followed by Oxford's study in August, then J&J and Pfizer by Sept and Oct.

https://apnews.com/d9150647d677cd036c03b8d0ab52358b?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 30, 2020, 07:23:21 PM
Russia set to approve Covid vaccine, even though the study is still in the midst of phase 2 studies. Frightening…

https://thehill.com/policy/international/509496-russia-aiming-to-approve-covid-19-vaccine-within-weeks-report

Russia’s vaccine still needs to finish its second phase of testing, which officials say they expect to complete by Aug. 3. Then, the third phase of testing will be conducted at the same time that front-line health care workers are vaccinated, according to the network.


——————-

The Russians are calling this a “Sputnik moment,“ but it also has the very real potential to be more like Chernobyl.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on July 30, 2020, 07:42:27 PM
Russia set to approve Covid vaccine, even though the study is still in the midst of phase 2 studies. Frightening…

https://thehill.com/policy/international/509496-russia-aiming-to-approve-covid-19-vaccine-within-weeks-report

Russia’s vaccine still needs to finish its second phase of testing, which officials say they expect to complete by Aug. 3. Then, the third phase of testing will be conducted at the same time that front-line health care workers are vaccinated, according to the network.


——————-

The Russians are calling this a “Sputnik moment,“ but it also has the very real potential to be more like Chernobyl.

China has already been vaccinating their military too.

Too bad we can't see transparent results on what happen in each of these experiments.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on July 30, 2020, 08:02:25 PM
China has already been vaccinating their military too.

Too bad we can't see transparent results on what happen in each of these experiments.


Yep. Whatever information they do release will almost certainly be sanitized...especially since they're going to be vaccinating their general public soon.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 31, 2020, 05:34:18 PM
Here is a follow up to my post about med profs saying that we should not necessarily be concerned about falling antibody counts.  This is written by a virologist at Yale who has been putting out a lot of very interesting studies on covid. 

It’s an opinion piece but I found also very informative to a layperson like me. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on August 01, 2020, 07:03:04 AM
Here is a follow up to my post about med profs saying that we should not necessarily be concerned about falling antibody counts.  This is written by a virologist at Yale who has been putting out a lot of very interesting studies on covid. 

It’s an opinion piece but I found also very informative to a layperson like me. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html)

Estimates of only 43% to 66%, not 90%, needed to be vaccinated to protect the unvaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on August 01, 2020, 07:31:21 AM
Estimates of only 43% to 66%, not 90%, needed to be vaccinated to protect the unvaccinated.

That has generally been the benchmark numbers. It is a very simple calculation for the approximation. You take the R0 value and plug it into 1- 1/R0 to get the fraction of the population needed to reach "herd immunity".

Estimates of the R0 without any quarantine measures, or any other restrictions range from 1.8-3. That gives you a range of 44-66%. That value can be achieved by a combination of immunity from both actual infections and vaccines.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Big Papi on August 01, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Here is a follow up to my post about med profs saying that we should not necessarily be concerned about falling antibody counts.  This is written by a virologist at Yale who has been putting out a lot of very interesting studies on covid. 

It’s an opinion piece but I found also very informative to a layperson like me. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html)


https://www.yahoo.com/news/dont-panic-waning-coronavirus-immunity-124700728.html

https://keyt.com/health/2020/08/02/do-some-people-have-protection-against-the-coronavirus/



Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on August 06, 2020, 02:15:20 PM
AP poll shows that only 42% will get vaccine when made available.

If the vaccines is (optimistically) 60-70% effective, that is nowhere near enough for herd immunity.

Vaccines do not cure viruses. Vaccinations do
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on August 06, 2020, 02:49:58 PM
AP poll shows that only 42% will get vaccine when made available.

If the vaccines is (optimistically) 60-70% effective, that is nowhere near enough for herd immunity.

Vaccines do not cure viruses. Vaccinations do


IMHO, the low rate is a direct result of POTUS' history of forcing Executive Branch agencies to do exactly what he wants...regardless of their oath to the Constitution, and regardless of their professional expertise and ethics. For Exhibit A, I give you the CDC school reopening plan - released, then withdrawn and watered down.
I would not put it past him to exert the same kind of influence over FDA's vaccine review process. The poll seems to indicate that many others feel the same way.

Personally, I will only take a vaccine that has been approved by FDA plus either the EU or UK regulatory agency.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 06, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
One thing I will look for is whether or not Fauci endorses it.  If we get word salad from him I would wait
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on August 06, 2020, 03:15:18 PM
One thing I will look for is whether or not Fauci endorses it.  If we get word salad from him I would wait

Exactly my feelings. And if Biden is elected, my decision will STILL be based on the recommendations of experts.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 13, 2020, 08:55:07 AM
New pre-print study showing 70% keep antibodies 6 months after infection.  Good news potentially on the durability of immunity question.   

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.21.20159178v1 (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.21.20159178v1)

 https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1293903501765074944?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1293903501765074944?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 04, 2020, 09:11:48 AM
NPR: Operation Warp Speed Top Adviser On The Status Of A Coronavirus Vaccine

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/03/909312697/operation-warp-speed-top-adviser-on-the-status-of-a-coronavirus-vaccine

It's a recorded interview with transcript, but here are the key points:

* It is "possible but very unlikely" that a vaccine will be ready by October or November

* If the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine is approved, we may have limited supply of approved vaccine for 70+ and first responders "by the end of the year."

* If the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine is approved, we may have enough for general population by "the middle of 2021."

Bottom line: For the vast majority of us, the social distancing, mask-wearing, risk balancing life of COVID will likely be with us for about another year...and that's if we are fortunate enough to have one of the vaccines bankrolled by the US pan out.

WEAR A MASK IN PUBLIC, AND STAY AWAY FROM CROWDED, HIGH-RISK SITUATIONS WHENEVER POSSIBLE
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on September 06, 2020, 08:57:32 PM
Getting charged $10,984 for an $8 antibody test...


https://twitter.com/propublica/status/1302185399121588224?s=19
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on September 06, 2020, 10:36:23 PM
Getting charged $10,984 for an $8 antibody test...


https://twitter.com/propublica/status/1302185399121588224?s=19

Best healthcare system in the world!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on September 08, 2020, 08:30:01 PM
I see there is a story that Aztra Zeneca is putting their Phase 3 vaccine trial on hold to study a patient who had adverse reaction.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on September 08, 2020, 08:50:44 PM
I see there is a story that Aztra Zeneca is putting their Phase 3 vaccine trial on hold to study a patient who had adverse reaction.

1 person in the UK had an adverse reaction, so AZ is stopping their trial.

UW@Madison was involved in the study.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 08, 2020, 08:53:46 PM
I see there is a story that Aztra Zeneca is putting their Phase 3 vaccine trial on hold to study a patient who had adverse reaction.


Yep, and this is of the most promising vaccines. No detail so far on what the reaction was, but it sounds like the participant will survive. Hopefully they quickly determine that it was unrelated to the vaccine, so they can resume without too much delay.

This is why they need to fully complete and analyze the phase 3 trials before the FDA approves anything. They did not see this type of reaction in the phase 1 or phase 2 trials, and a phase 3 trial is often the first time officials learn of a significant reaction to an investigational drug.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/09/08/report-covid-vaccine-candidate-created-oxford-university-and-astrazeneca-put-hold/5752569002/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on September 08, 2020, 10:10:36 PM

Yep, and this is of the most promising vaccines. No detail so far on what the reaction was, but it sounds like the participant will survive. Hopefully they quickly determine that it was unrelated to the vaccine, so they can resume without too much delay.

This is why they need to fully complete and analyze the phase 3 trials before the FDA approves anything. They did not see this type of reaction in the phase 1 or phase 2 trials, and a phase 3 trial is often the first time officials learn of a significant reaction to an investigational drug.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/09/08/report-covid-vaccine-candidate-created-oxford-university-and-astrazeneca-put-hold/5752569002/

Also a good example of why the phase 3 trials can take a long time. An adverse reaction, a death, and everything gets shut down until they can be 100% certain it was not related to the drug/vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on September 08, 2020, 10:14:00 PM
Also a good example of why the phase 3 trials can take a long time. An adverse reaction, a death, and everything gets shut down until they can be 100% certain it was not related to the drug/vaccine.

Hey forgetful...maybe you missed it in the Covid thread, was wondering what your thoughts were on the Sturgis study?  Whether we should take it seriously or not?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on September 11, 2020, 01:51:54 PM
A little insight to the COVID-19 vaccine development at Pfizer.


Pfizer’s CT site helped develop a COVID-19 vaccine. But will it work?
By Ana Radelat, CTMirror.org Updated 9:48 am EDT, Wednesday, September 9, 2020

https://www.nhregister.com/news/coronavirus/article/Pfizer-s-CT-site-helped-develop-a-COVID-19-15553337.php

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on September 15, 2020, 07:38:33 AM
https://www.pittwire.pitt.edu/news/pitt-scientists-discover-tiny-antibody-component-highly-effective-preventing-and-treating-sars

Pitt has been sciencing their asses off since the beginning of this.   It sure would be helpful if this is shown to be effective in humans. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 15, 2020, 08:28:52 AM
https://www.pittwire.pitt.edu/news/pitt-scientists-discover-tiny-antibody-component-highly-effective-preventing-and-treating-sars

Pitt has been sciencing their asses off since the beginning of this.   It sure would be helpful if this is shown to be effective in humans.


The science makes sense - really hope it works out in clinical trials. Pitt has some top-notch researchers.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 15, 2020, 03:06:14 PM
NIH closely evaluating the adverse event in the Astra Zeneca trial...but A-Z is not being very forthcoming. Glad to see NIH is pressing them on this serious event, and disappointed that A-Z is being so evasive. I hope NIH keeps the pressure on, and only gives the green light if and when satisfactory answers are provided.

NIH is ‘very concerned’ about serious side effect in coronavirus vaccine trial

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-09-15/nih-concerned-side-effect-in-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-trial

“The highest levels of NIH are very concerned,” said Dr. Avindra Nath, intramural clinical director and a leader of viral research at the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke, a division of the NIH. “Everyone’s hopes are on a vaccine, and if you have a major complication the whole thing could get derailed.”

A great deal of uncertainty remains about what happened to the unnamed patient. AstraZeneca said the trial volunteer recovered from a severe inflammation of the spinal cord and is no longer hospitalized.

Nath and another neurologist said they understood that the patient was afflicted with transverse myelitis, though the company has not confirmed this. Transverse myelitis produces symptoms involving inflammation along the spinal cord that can cause pain, muscle weakness and paralysis.

AstraZeneca “need to be more forthcoming with a potential complication of a vaccine which will eventually be given to millions of people,” Nath said. “We would like to see how we can help, but the lack of information makes it difficult to do so.”




Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on September 15, 2020, 03:41:40 PM
NIH closely evaluating the adverse event in the Astra Zeneca trial...but A-Z is not being very forthcoming. Glad to see NIH is pressing them on this serious event, and disappointed that A-Z is being so evasive. I hope NIH keeps the pressure on, and only gives the green light if and when satisfactory answers are provided.

NIH is ‘very concerned’ about serious side effect in coronavirus vaccine trial

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-09-15/nih-concerned-side-effect-in-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-trial

“The highest levels of NIH are very concerned,” said Dr. Avindra Nath, intramural clinical director and a leader of viral research at the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke, a division of the NIH. “Everyone’s hopes are on a vaccine, and if you have a major complication the whole thing could get derailed.”

A great deal of uncertainty remains about what happened to the unnamed patient. AstraZeneca said the trial volunteer recovered from a severe inflammation of the spinal cord and is no longer hospitalized.

Nath and another neurologist said they understood that the patient was afflicted with transverse myelitis, though the company has not confirmed this. Transverse myelitis produces symptoms involving inflammation along the spinal cord that can cause pain, muscle weakness and paralysis.

AstraZeneca “need to be more forthcoming with a potential complication of a vaccine which will eventually be given to millions of people,” Nath said. “We would like to see how we can help, but the lack of information makes it difficult to do so.”


Just release it and then run 60 second ads with all of the side effects.   They'll be fine, as they have people looking at the sky, running fingers through flowers, roller skating or drinking ice tea.  Muzak is also necessary.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on September 15, 2020, 03:42:51 PM
Just release it and then run 60 second ads with all of the side effects.   They'll be fine, as they have people looking at the sky, running fingers through flowers, roller skating or drinking ice tea.  Muzak is also necessary.

Post of the day.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 15, 2020, 03:48:38 PM
Just release it and then run 60 second ads with all of the side effects.   They'll be fine, as they have people looking at the sky, running fingers through flowers, roller skating or drinking ice tea.  Muzak is also necessary.

Perfect!

I just love those drug ads. "So it'll clear up my skin, but might make my testicles fall off? Sign me up!"
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on September 15, 2020, 05:00:32 PM
When I see those ads I am like, I am never putting this in my body!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on September 15, 2020, 05:12:00 PM
Crap, forgot to add that Big Pharma might be able to help if you can't afford your medication....  lmao.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on September 16, 2020, 07:59:22 AM
FYI - If you donate blood through the Red Cross, they will test for antibodies and give you the results.

I am donating this afternoon.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 16, 2020, 08:00:33 AM
FYI - If you donate blood through the Red Cross, they will test for antibodies and give you the results.

I am donating this afternoon.

Shocked you found a time. My mother had to drive up to Fox lake to get a time that wasn't months out.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on September 16, 2020, 08:12:36 AM
Shocked you found a time. My mother had to drive up to Fox lake to get a time that wasn't months out.

It was a drive thru testing site in Madison. I waited less than 15 minutes in line.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on September 16, 2020, 12:47:37 PM
Shocked you found a time. My mother had to drive up to Fox lake to get a time that wasn't months out.

It seems to be totally regional.  I couldnt find time for months in SE WI.  Meanwhile, I have 2 friends in Columbus and 1 in LA who got donated blood within days and got their antibody results.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 16, 2020, 01:50:20 PM
Monoclonal antibodies

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lilly-announces-proof-of-concept-data-for-neutralizing-antibody-ly-cov555-in-the-covid-19-outpatient-setting-301131785.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lilly-announces-proof-of-concept-data-for-neutralizing-antibody-ly-cov555-in-the-covid-19-outpatient-setting-301131785.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on September 17, 2020, 07:51:32 AM
It seems to be totally regional.  I couldnt find time for months in SE WI.  Meanwhile, I have 2 friends in Columbus and 1 in LA who got donated blood within days and got their antibody results.

Only an hour or two to Madison.  Worth the drive!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Keithtisbarf on September 20, 2020, 11:56:38 PM
I do not feel safe with the vaccine being rushed out.  I’m not going to take it. I’d rather continue to wear a mask and social distance until there is more evidence of no awful side effects.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on September 22, 2020, 09:23:46 AM
Getting charged $10,984 for an $8 antibody test...


https://twitter.com/propublica/status/1302185399121588224?s=19

Yah capitalism!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 22, 2020, 09:42:07 AM
I really wouldn't call the health insurance industry a shining example of capitalism. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on September 22, 2020, 10:41:14 AM
Iodine.  Who knew?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 24, 2020, 12:54:23 PM
I have never seen anything like this in terms of drug/vaccine approval...but then again I have never seen anything like the disconnect between the scientists and the decisionmakers.

Cuomo is forming a panel to review federally authorized vaccines, citing concerns the process has become politicized.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/covid-19-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage#link-62bcea85

-----------

I have previously said I won't get a vaccine unless it has been approved by both FDA and the EU's drug regulatory agency, so I get where he is coming from...but it seems like Cuomo is trying to build a pretty complex review process on the fly....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on September 24, 2020, 03:13:09 PM
I’m not taking anything approved right before the election. When Dr. Murphy from Northwestern announces on WGN-TV that it’s good to go, I will be there.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 27, 2020, 10:43:38 PM
Vaccine education for those that have interest. 

https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on September 28, 2020, 08:14:00 AM
Vaccine education for those that have interest. 

https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21)

If ever there was a time for ThreadReader, this is it.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310372301314101250.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on September 28, 2020, 08:26:23 AM
If ever there was a time for ThreadReader, this is it.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310372301314101250.html

138 tweets, jeeeeeesus.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 28, 2020, 10:26:42 AM
138 tweets, jeeeeeesus.

Here is the polished version.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2798-3 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2798-3)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on September 28, 2020, 11:46:39 AM
138 tweets, jeeeeeesus.

MFer coulda found the vaccine in the time it took to type all that out.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 28, 2020, 03:16:15 PM
I thought this was an interesting view into Operation Warp Speed.  I’m not disappointed that the military is involved, especially when it comes to logistics. 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MarquetteDano on October 01, 2020, 11:45:08 AM
Various news articles out there on the side effects of two of the vaccines in trials.  I just had a flu vaccine 3 weeks ago with zero side effects.  In terms of the COVID ones,  high fevers,  headaches, nausea.  Typically after the second shot.

Good news is most people feel better 24-36 hours later.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 01, 2020, 11:46:26 AM
Various news articles out there on the side effects of two of the vaccines in trials.  I just had a flu vaccine 3 weeks ago with zero side effects.  In terms of the COVID ones,  high fevers,  headaches, nausea.  Typically after the second shot.

Good news is most people feel better 24-36 hours later.

To be fair if that's the worst that happens and could get things relatively back to the way they should be I'd do it. Could be much worse in terms of side effects.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on October 01, 2020, 12:55:57 PM
I thought this was an interesting view into Operation Warp Speed.  I’m not disappointed that the military is involved, especially when it comes to logistics. 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/)


Military should be involved. They are very good at this.

They also should have been put in charge of PPE, ventilators, and other needed equipment. Lots of lives could have been saved.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on October 01, 2020, 02:26:16 PM
Moderna Therapeutics said Wednesday that the drug-making company’s coronavirus vaccine won’t be available for widespread distribution until at least next spring

CEO Stéphane Bancel told the Financial Times that Moderna would not apply for emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration until at least Nov. 25. An emergency use authorization lets frontline medical workers and at-risk individuals use the vaccine during the pandemic.

Bancel also told the publication that his company will not seek FDA approval for vaccine use in the general population until late January, adding that such an approval will more likely come closer to late March or early April.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on October 01, 2020, 02:39:43 PM
The president said in the next couple weeks.

Who are you gonna believe?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on October 01, 2020, 04:16:43 PM
Moderna Therapeutics said Wednesday that the drug-making company’s coronavirus vaccine won’t be available for widespread distribution until at least next spring

CEO Stéphane Bancel told the Financial Times that Moderna would not apply for emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration until at least Nov. 25. An emergency use authorization lets frontline medical workers and at-risk individuals use the vaccine during the pandemic.

Bancel also told the publication that his company will not seek FDA approval for vaccine use in the general population until late January, adding that such an approval will more likely come closer to late March or early April.

And when the company says not until at least 'next spring,' they are giving you their educated guess on the best-case scenario. Typical CEO trying to encourage shareholders without violating SEC rules. And it isn't surprising, or necessarily the company's fault - you can only speed things along so much in vaccine development, no matter how many resources you plough into it. Ethical review boards, data safety monitoring boards, unpredictable side effects - they all add time to a necessarily time-intensive process.

I will be pleasantly surprised if we have a vaccine in widespread distribution by mid-2021. Earlier might have been great, but it's a pipe dream IMO.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on October 05, 2020, 08:49:26 PM
https://twitter.com/markmobility/status/1313263900062777344?s=19

"White House blocks new FDA COVID-19 Vaccine guidelines"
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on October 06, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
The F.D.A. releases advice for vaccine developers, including recommendations the White House had blocked.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/06/world/covid-coronavirus?name=styln-coronavirus-markets&region=TOP_BANNER&block=storyline_menu_recirc&action=click&pgtype=Article&impression_id=cb63f870-0804-11eb-8e53-77965d24cd50&variant=1_Show#the-fda-releases-advice-for-vaccine-developers-including-recommendations-the-white-house-had-blocked

The Food and Drug Administration on Tuesday released a summary of the advice it has given to developers of vaccines for Covid-19. The advice contained key parts of new F.D.A. vaccine guidelines that the White House had blocked.

The advice was nestled at the end of a document the F.D.A. prepared for the meeting on Oct. 22 of the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee. The committee will be discussing the development, authorization and licensing of Covid vaccines.


-----------

Ballsy move by the FDA, and the right move if they want the public to have any confidence in the safety of any Covid vaccine that gets approved.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on October 06, 2020, 02:04:26 PM

Ballsy move by the FDA, and the right move if they want the public to have any confidence in the safety of any Covid vaccine that gets approved.

We need this.  Interestingly Pfizer CEO also tweeted on this topic today as well as Scott Gottlieb on interviews (BOD member for Pfizer but former Head of FDA) try to support the integrity and independence of the FDA.

It seems like the CDC is also waking up that they need to do their jobs with yesterdays reinstitution of the aerosol guidance. 

There seems to be something that emboldened the scientists recently.  Not sure if its the Atlas dynamic or the admin just cutting the agencies out, but something happened to get them to speak up.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on October 06, 2020, 02:07:55 PM
57-41
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on October 06, 2020, 02:15:14 PM
57-41

=16

The google search box will do math for you if you type in the equation  8-)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on October 06, 2020, 02:38:26 PM
Random numbers
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: copious1218 on October 06, 2020, 03:29:02 PM
57-41

Halftime of Game 4 tonight?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on October 06, 2020, 04:09:58 PM
Perhaps.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 07, 2020, 08:14:40 AM
57-41

Polling #s.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on October 07, 2020, 09:03:12 AM
 Yeah, I knew. But it’s only the swing states that matter.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on October 07, 2020, 09:51:59 AM
Great news from Eli Lilly this morning.  A reduction in ER/hospital visits from almost 6% in placebo to under 1% with this antibody cocktail.

Ready to roll out millions of doses, let’s get it done!!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/eli-lilly-asks-fda-to-authorize-covid-19-antibody-drug-11602074998
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on October 07, 2020, 10:06:39 AM
Great news from Eli Lilly this morning.  A reduction in ER/hospital visits from almost 6% in placebo to under 1% with this antibody cocktail.

Ready to roll out millions of doses, let’s get it done!!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/eli-lilly-asks-fda-to-authorize-covid-19-antibody-drug-11602074998

Again, from very early on I've been a proponent of these monoclonal antibodies being the most likely to have an impact on COVID in a rapid manner.

It was a major strategic error by the administration not to include these in project Warp speed. There should have been billions of dollars guaranteed to these companies to backstop the cost in production (in case trials failed), and they should have been being pushed hard in accelerated trials. And financial support to ensure that every American could have access and afford these expensive drugs.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on October 07, 2020, 10:29:43 AM
Again, from very early on I've been a proponent of these monoclonal antibodies being the most likely to have an impact on COVID in a rapid manner.

It was a major strategic error by the administration not to include these in project Warp speed. There should have been billions of dollars guaranteed to these companies to backstop the cost in production (in case trials failed), and they should have been being pushed hard in accelerated trials. And financial support to ensure that every American could have access and afford these expensive drugs.

I would use negligence or denial rather than “strategic error”, but you are 100% correct.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on October 07, 2020, 10:47:46 AM
Again, from very early on I've been a proponent of these monoclonal antibodies being the most likely to have an impact on COVID in a rapid manner.

It was a major strategic error by the administration not to include these in project Warp speed. There should have been billions of dollars guaranteed to these companies to backstop the cost in production (in case trials failed), and they should have been being pushed hard in accelerated trials. And financial support to ensure that every American could have access and afford these expensive drugs.

Have they ever been asked why these monoclonal antibodies weren’t included?  Would be interesting to see if the medical folks consulting Operation Warp Speed fought for the inclusion and told no for some reason or if it was really never discussed by Fauci, Birx, etc.. as an option.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: HansMoleman on October 07, 2020, 10:50:40 AM
Polling #s.
Oct 2016 polling #s
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on October 07, 2020, 10:52:09 AM
It would be interesting to hear why it wasn't included. 

I dont know why the conjecture about doctors opposing, you could as easily make a case that the head of the pandemic response was against them because they use stem cells in their development.  But instead of unhelpful conjecture maybe there is a source that is out there.

Here are some:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/02/warp-speed-covid-antibody-treatments-425649 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/02/warp-speed-covid-antibody-treatments-425649)

https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/08/operation-warp-speed-promised-to-do-the-impossible-how-far-has-it-come/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/08/operation-warp-speed-promised-to-do-the-impossible-how-far-has-it-come/)

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08/designer-antibodies-could-battle-covid-19-vaccines-arrive (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08/designer-antibodies-could-battle-covid-19-vaccines-arrive)

Conclusion: It's been long ID'd that we are not ramping up capacity here as part of Warp speed, just trial support.  No discussion I could find about why or who.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on October 07, 2020, 11:06:09 AM
Have they ever been asked why these monoclonal antibodies weren’t included?  Would be interesting to see if the medical folks consulting Operation Warp Speed fought for the inclusion and told no for some reason or if it was really never discussed by Fauci, Birx, etc.. as an option.

The Whitehouse has been notified, the group of scientists in the COVID-19 advisory group (partnering with manufacturers and billionaires), clearly indicated the importance of monoclonal antibodies as the most likely bridge to a vaccine.

That groups insistence on its importance is what let the administration to work with Regeneron (possibly saving the president's life). It was highly prioritized.

Now, for the mea culpa. I know people on that advisory group. My criticism is in part unwarranted and incomplete. Operation Warp Speed did fund Regeneron's production, I had missed this. But only enough funding to backstop 70k-300k doses, far too low to be widely available to the public this calendar year. That is still a major strategic error.

Other promising candidates either did not obtain any funding, or simply received funding to help support trials (not production), with the priorities going to vaccines instead. The big cost and risks are in production, which is why in most drug developments, planning and scaling up production waits to after phase 3, when you have a good baseline for whether it will be approved or not.

The WH decided to prioritize vaccines and try to rush them out by Election Day. That was their strategic decision.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on October 07, 2020, 11:32:13 AM
The Whitehouse has been notified, the group of scientists in the COVID-19 advisory group (partnering with manufacturers and billionaires), clearly indicated the importance of monoclonal antibodies as the most likely bridge to a vaccine.

That groups insistence on its importance is what let the administration to work with Regeneron (possibly saving the president's life). It was highly prioritized.

Now, for the mea culpa. I know people on that advisory group. My criticism is in part unwarranted and incomplete. Operation Warp Speed did fund Regeneron's production, I had missed this. But only enough funding to backstop 70k-300k doses, far too low to be widely available to the public this calendar year. That is still a major strategic error.

Other promising candidates either did not obtain any funding, or simply received funding to help support trials (not production), with the priorities going to vaccines instead. The big cost and risks are in production, which is why in most drug developments, planning and scaling up production waits to after phase 3, when you have a good baseline for whether it will be approved or not.

The WH decided to prioritize vaccines and try to rush them out by Election Day. That was their strategic decision.

Interesting, thanks for detailed update.  In hind sight you’re saying those priorities should have been flipped with the antibody development taking precedent over the vaccine or both routes treated more equally in importance?

Glad to hear the task force helped with some of the support for trails/production in what appears to be a pretty promising treatment cocktail and it wasn’t negligence/denial that jockey throws around with no evidence. 

Your criticism is that they’re should have been more support/funding if I’m reading you correctly?  With more support these treatments you think might have been readily available by now?



Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on October 07, 2020, 01:59:38 PM

Interesting, thanks for detailed update.  In hind sight you’re saying those priorities should have been flipped with the antibody development taking precedent over the vaccine or both routes treated more equally in importance?

Glad to hear the task force helped with some of the support for trails/production in what appears to be a pretty promising treatment cocktail and it wasn’t negligence/denial that jockey throws around with no evidence. 

Your criticism is that they’re should have been more support/funding if I’m reading you correctly?  With more support these treatments you think might have been readily available by now?



I won't speak for forgetful, but my sense is that monoclonal antibody therapy should have been better funded generally - both at Regeneron and other companies.

The emphasis (overemphasis?) on getting a vaccine out before the election arguably took funds away from these monoclonal antibody studies, and the resources to produce and distribute them.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on October 07, 2020, 02:52:40 PM

I won't speak for forgetful, but my sense is that monoclonal antibody therapy should have been better funded generally - both at Regeneron and other companies.

The emphasis (overemphasis?) on getting a vaccine out before the election arguably took funds away from these monoclonal antibody studies, and the resources to produce and distribute them.

Eh, hindsight is 20/20.  No win situation.  If these therapies were unsuccessful, then the government would have caught criticism for wasting money, or a corporate giveaway.  I'm fine with funding all of these therapies, but it's easy to say which one we should have thrown more money at after the fact.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on October 07, 2020, 02:55:11 PM
Both/and, not either/or.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on October 07, 2020, 02:55:29 PM
Interesting, thanks for detailed update.  In hind sight you’re saying those priorities should have been flipped with the antibody development taking precedent over the vaccine or both routes treated more equally in importance?

Glad to hear the task force helped with some of the support for trails/production in what appears to be a pretty promising treatment cocktail and it wasn’t negligence/denial that jockey throws around with no evidence. 

Your criticism is that they’re should have been more support/funding if I’m reading you correctly?  With more support these treatments you think might have been readily available by now?

Gooo pretty much has it right. By no means should the priorities have been flipped. But the monoclonal antibody therapies should have been better funded, both at Regeneron and other options. For an extra $1-2B, we could have these treatments in widespread usage right now around the nation.

In my opinion, the WH lost sight of the forest for the trees. They looked at this as an election issue. Getting a vaccine by Election Day became priority number 1, 2, and 3. They lost focus on the overall picture and long term plan/goals.

Also my opinion, and not at all related to any information I have from others, but I believe that member of the Trump administration did not, and still do not, fully understand the difference between antibody treatments from convalescence plasma, and these monoclonal cocktails. I think this led some in the administration to simply decide, the convalescent plasma would be a sufficient bridge to a vaccine.

I also think their absurd belief that HCQ was truly a miracle cure, disrupted funding to more promising options.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on October 07, 2020, 03:09:59 PM
Both/and, not either/or.


Yep. I only parenthetically added 'overemphasis?' for those who are concerned with the total $$$ outlay, in which case the funding could have been more balanced.

But on this one, I agree - we should have properly funded both, instead of focusing disproportionately on vaccines and practically ignoring monoclonal antibodies.



Also my opinion, and not at all related to any information I have from others, but I believe that member of the Trump administration did not, and still do not, fully understand the difference between antibody treatments from convalescence plasma, and these monoclonal cocktails. I think this led some in the administration to simply decide, the convalescent plasma would be a sufficient bridge to a vaccine.



I know that's just speculation on your part (which you acknowledge), but it would be an inexcusable misunderstanding given the gravity of the crisis. Not beyond belief...but inexcusable.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on October 07, 2020, 06:20:40 PM
Have they ever been asked why these monoclonal antibodies weren’t included?  Would be interesting to see if the medical folks consulting Operation Warp Speed fought for the inclusion and told no for some reason or if it was really never discussed by Fauci, Birx, etc.. as an option.
Because Trump put the Secretary of Failure in charge
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on October 07, 2020, 07:05:56 PM
Jared Kushner, leave it up to the states and the markets.   

And


here


we



are
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on October 08, 2020, 10:25:10 AM
I think it is also only fair to add additional reasons for why Regeneron was largely the only monoclonal therapy targeted in operation warp speed.

Trump regularly golfs with the CEO of Regeneron, and as recently as 2017 (unknown about current status) owned stock in Regeneron.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on October 08, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
I think it is also only fair to add additional reasons for why Regeneron was largely the only monoclonal therapy targeted in operation warp speed.

Trump regularly golfs with the CEO of Regeneron, and as recently as 2017 (unknown about current status) owned stock in Regeneron.


Makes one wonder if they would have ignored monoclonals altogether if not for Trump's golfing buddy.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on October 08, 2020, 05:42:50 PM
On the treatments front.  Anybody ever take dexamethasone?  The more I read about it, it seems safe, but also seems that you shouldn't try to do your day job while taking it. 

Curious of any firsthand experience?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on October 08, 2020, 06:43:14 PM
On the treatments front.  Anybody ever take dexamethasone?  The more I read about it, it seems safe, but also seems that you shouldn't try to do your day job while taking it. 

Curious of any firsthand experience?


We also don’t know if it was a single dose or he is getting it daily. He even forces his doctors to sign NDAs, so we may never know.

If he is taking it daily, buckle up. It’s gonna be a rough ride.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on October 08, 2020, 06:54:01 PM

We also don’t know if it was a single dose or he is getting it daily. He even forces his doctors to sign NDAs, so we may never know.

If he is taking it daily, buckle up. It’s gonna be a rough ride.

Today he also admitted he pushed/asked for some of his treatments. So, there's that.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on October 08, 2020, 07:06:46 PM
This is pretty effen good:

The antibody cocktail for Covid-19 that President Trump touted on Wednesday afternoon was developed with cells originally derived from fetal tissue, a practice that his administration has moved to restrict.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/08/world/covid-coronavirus?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20201008&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=40317&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-treatment-that-trump-touted-as-a-cure-for-covid-19-was-developed-using-cells-derived-from-fetal-tissue

In June 2019, the Trump administration suspended federal funding for most new scientific research involving fetal tissue derived from abortions.

“Promoting the dignity of human life from conception to natural death is one of the very top priorities of President Trump’s administration,” the Department of Health and Human Services said in a statement in 2019, around the time of the ban.

“Intramural research that requires new acquisition of fetal tissue from elective abortions will not be conducted,” the statement added.

Mr. Trump last week received Regeneron’s cocktail of monoclonal antibodies — essentially, antibodies synthesized in living cells and administered to help the body fight off the infection.

To develop the antibodies, Regeneron relied on 293T, a cell line derived from the kidney tissue of an aborted fetus in the 1970s. At least two companies racing to produce vaccines against the coronavirus, Moderna and AstraZeneca, also are using the cell line.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on October 08, 2020, 08:41:41 PM
This is pretty effen good:

The antibody cocktail for Covid-19 that President Trump touted on Wednesday afternoon was developed with cells originally derived from fetal tissue, a practice that his administration has moved to restrict.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/08/world/covid-coronavirus?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20201008&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=40317&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-treatment-that-trump-touted-as-a-cure-for-covid-19-was-developed-using-cells-derived-from-fetal-tissue

In June 2019, the Trump administration suspended federal funding for most new scientific research involving fetal tissue derived from abortions.

“Promoting the dignity of human life from conception to natural death is one of the very top priorities of President Trump’s administration,” the Department of Health and Human Services said in a statement in 2019, around the time of the ban.

“Intramural research that requires new acquisition of fetal tissue from elective abortions will not be conducted,” the statement added.

Mr. Trump last week received Regeneron’s cocktail of monoclonal antibodies — essentially, antibodies synthesized in living cells and administered to help the body fight off the infection.

To develop the antibodies, Regeneron relied on 293T, a cell line derived from the kidney tissue of an aborted fetus in the 1970s. At least two companies racing to produce vaccines against the coronavirus, Moderna and AstraZeneca, also are using the cell line.

Most biochemical research relies on 293T cells. You name a modern discovery and I'm almost certain those cells were used somewhere along the way.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 08, 2020, 10:35:18 PM
Can I ask to my more science/biology informed people why that fetus was so special?

Why can the 293T cell not be used from others?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on October 08, 2020, 11:29:54 PM
Can I ask to my more science/biology informed people why that fetus was so special?

Why can the 293T cell not be used from others?

Some very general information. This is an old cell line, originally formed in the 1970s. The 293T has very little meaning relative to the original source material. It was simply the 293rd attempt at making a stable cell line from human embryonic kidney cells (hence them being more commonly referred to as HEK293 cells). The 293T is a later derivative where they have incorporated the simian vacuolating virus 40 T antigen (SV40). Incorporating SV40 T-antigen makes protein expression in these cell lines more efficient.

There was really nothing special about the fetus. Back then, it was just hard to generate a stable cell line, hence 293 attempts, it is believed that this cell line is not actually a kidney derived cell line but likely derived from adrenal tissue accidentally present in the sample.

In modern research there are tons of different cell lines used depending on what you are actually studying. The advantage of HEK293 cells is that they are very easy to maintain, very easy to introduce foreign DNA into (called transfection), which makes them very efficient producers of proteins of interest (recombinant protein expression).

And since they are easy to maintain and propagate, research labs around the world are still using cells derived from that first experiment in the 70's. Being quite honest, those cells from a single legally aborted fetus in the 70's has saved millions and millions of lives.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on October 12, 2020, 08:11:53 PM
A second phase 3 vaccine study has been paused due to an adverse event in a participant. First the Astra Zeneca trial, and today the Johnson & Johnson trial.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/12/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-study-paused-due-to-unexplained-illness-in-participant/

This is not shocking – it happens all the time in clinical trials – but shows why it was foolish to promise aggressive timelines that clearly assumed everything would go perfectly. It never does in drug/vaccine research.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on November 01, 2020, 02:37:26 PM
Has anyone gotten one of the 100 million doses of Covid 19 vaccines that White House CoS Mark Meadows promised would be ready to go by the end of October?
It’s November after all.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 01, 2020, 07:24:48 PM
Has anyone gotten one of the 100 million doses of Covid 19 vaccines that White House CoS Mark Meadows promised would be ready to go by the end of October?
It’s November after all.


I hear you have to go to the wall that Mexico built to get it. Only way to get there is on all the new infrastructure. But, you can only get the vaccine, if you are enrolled in the big new beautiful health care plan.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Spaniel with a Short Tail on November 05, 2020, 02:21:02 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Mink_-_Lower_Saranac_Lake.jpg)

Damn those cute little mink!

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Denmark-finds-covid-strain-that-might-hamper-15701598.php
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 05, 2020, 09:12:26 PM

I hear you have to go to the wall that Mexico built to get it. Only way to get there is on all the new infrastructure. But, you can only get the vaccine, if you are enrolled in the big new beautiful health care plan.

Wow, you really put a bow on that!

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 06, 2020, 08:31:02 AM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Mink_-_Lower_Saranac_Lake.jpg)

Damn those cute little mink!

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Denmark-finds-covid-strain-that-might-hamper-15701598.php

A nasal spray that blocks the virus worked well in a study that tested it on ferrets. If it works in humans, it could be a new way to fight the pandemic, with a daily spritz up the nose.

Maybe the mink can get ahold of that!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 06, 2020, 03:44:50 PM
A nasal spray that blocks the virus worked well in a study that tested it on ferrets. If it works in humans, it could be a new way to fight the pandemic, with a daily spritz up the nose.

Maybe the mink can get ahold of that!


How would you like to be the lucky lab tech who got the spray stuff up ferrets’ noses while trying not to get bitten?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on November 06, 2020, 04:05:07 PM

How would you like to be the lucky lab tech who got the spray stuff up ferrets’ noses while trying not to get bitten?

I mean, it's probably better than having to administer a suppository!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 06:24:31 AM
Sounds like Pfizer vaccine is very effective. Great news if the trial gets some more safety data. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html
 (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on November 09, 2020, 07:00:59 AM
Sounds like Pfizer vaccine is very effective. Great news if the trial gets some more safety data. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html
 (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html)

Amazing news!!  Blows the doors off the expectations of 60-70% efficacy.

Congrats Pfizer, starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.  With a vaccine now showing 90% efficacy and at the doorstep of being made available to the public should all federal funds move towards this one vaccine to ramp up production as quickly as possible?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on November 09, 2020, 07:11:08 AM
Amazing news!!  Blows the doors off the expectations of 60-70% efficacy.

Congrats Pfizer, starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.  With a vaccine now showing 90% efficacy and at the doorstep of being made available to the public should all federal funds move towards this one vaccine to ramp up production as quickly as possible?

I have read having multiple versions can be helpful, for example the I believe it is the Johnson & Johnson one that only requires one shot, versus 2 for this and the other ones.  Some other trials also have vaccines that can be stored at different temperatures, which again can help with the scalability since not all medical offices have the right storage units to keep the vaccines cold enough.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 09, 2020, 07:20:52 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-114500360.html

This is good news.    However, I suspect that it will end up being an annual vaccine, like the flu shot.     Unless the anti-bodies last.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on November 09, 2020, 07:29:56 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-114500360.html

This is good news.    However, I suspect that it will end up being an annual vaccine, like the flu shot.     Unless the anti-bodies last.

Reason number 17 why Pfizer's stock will go to $99999999999 per share today.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on November 09, 2020, 08:25:55 AM
If, a big if, Pfizer's vaccine becomes available in later 2021, the important part...

"The vaccine will be available for free to all Americans."

Also of note, Pfizer didn't take any federal money and was not a part of operation Warp Speed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 09, 2020, 08:30:12 AM
Pfizer is the hardest to distribute however.  Two doses and cold storage.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 08:30:39 AM
I didn’t know this...from the times article

“We were never part of the Warp Speed,” she said. “We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone.”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 08:34:07 AM
Good to see this quote from the Post report. 

“The results are really quite good, I mean extraordinary,” said Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, adding that the results might bode well for a vaccine being developed by biotech firm Moderna and his institute that uses a similar technology, “which gives you hope we might even have two vaccines.”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 08:37:13 AM
Also great news.  The fact the virologists are so excited really leave me encouraged.  They have been a tough bunch urging caution with all treatments and developments along the way. 

https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1325806460937392128?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1325806460937392128?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 09, 2020, 08:40:39 AM
So when do their trials conclude that this'd even begin to go to production?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 08:48:20 AM
So when do their trials conclude that this'd even begin to go to production?

I think the latter is already happening.  From what i have read, the trial will continue to conclusion, however this gives them almost enough info to do an emergency use authorization (need a few more weeks of safety data).  That allows them to give it to healthcare workers and high risk in the interim.  For the 'people' this is a 21 event (maybe even mid year or entering fall)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 09, 2020, 08:50:04 AM
I think the latter is already happening.  From what i have read, the trial will continue to conclusion, however this gives them almost enough info to do an emergency use authorization (need a few more weeks of safety data).  That allows them to give it to healthcare workers and high risk in the interim.  For the 'people' this is a 21 event (maybe even mid year or entering fall)

So now's the time to carb up to obese levels, start smoking and really play up seasonal asthma if I want to get it?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 08:51:57 AM
So now's the time to carb up to obese levels, start smoking and really play up seasonal asthma if I want to get it?

I think you would have better luck if you move into a nursing home.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 09, 2020, 08:56:21 AM
Join your local police/fire/EMS department.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 09:06:09 AM
This is great news!

As others have mentioned...given the temperature requirements and the need for two doses, we need to be prepared for several more months of masks, social distancing and other precautions. I hope the news doesn't cause the public to let its guard down even further than it already has.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on November 09, 2020, 09:22:42 AM
So when do their trials conclude that this'd even begin to go to production?

Roughly speaking, if all is successful, and, that is a big if, April ish at the earliest for more mass distribution according to those working on it.

The key takeaway from this story is the more about the 90% efficacy so far which is very encouraging.

The hope is that there could be multiple vaccines available, Spring, Summer, or Fall of 2021.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 09:28:27 AM
This is great news!

As others have mentioned...given the temperature requirements and the need for two doses, we need to be prepared for several more months of masks, social distancing and other precautions. I hope the news doesn't cause the public to let its guard down even further than it already has.

I am just so happy for the healthcare workers.  It's going to be a tough winter and they will be protected.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 09:34:15 AM
I didn’t know this...from the times article

“We were never part of the Warp Speed,” she said. “We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone.”

This hasn't stopped those in power from claiming credit.

But the important thing is they need 2 more months of data analysis/collection, and then can begin distribution. Excellent news.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on November 09, 2020, 09:44:44 AM
This hasn't stopped those in power from claiming credit.

But the important thing is they need 2 more months of data analysis/collection, and then can begin distribution. Excellent news.

Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum?  Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: cheebs09 on November 09, 2020, 09:50:10 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum?  Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?

I would guess the timelines around vaccines are pretty rigid, even when being fast tracked. Regardless of when Inauguration Day is.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 09, 2020, 09:54:46 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum?  Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?
Because there are specific protocols to go through.   Pfizer says they won't be done with their test before the end of November.  Then they will present their findings.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-114500360.html


Actually in the link provided earlier in the thread.    I know, because I read the link before I shared it.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 09:55:31 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum?  Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?

For EUA it is being reported they need a few more weeks (not months) of safety data -- which will give them the 2 months required.

From the NY Times report:

"Pfizer plans to ask the Food and Drug Administration for emergency authorization of the two-dose vaccine later this month, after it has collected the recommended two months of safety data. By the end of the year it will have manufactured enough doses to immunize 15 to 20 million people, company executives have said."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 10:01:17 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum?  Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?

The article I read said they wanted 2 more months of data. I think it was partially inaccurate (likely journalist mis-stating aspects of an interview), in that they need a minimum of 2-months of safety data. Looks to be on track for initial use by late December.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 10:02:16 AM
Multiple healthcare profs are highlighting this thread if you want to know what this means and doesn’t mean (trial wise) and why continuing the trial is important.

https://twitter.com/nataliexdean/status/1325820512946302977?s=21 (https://twitter.com/nataliexdean/status/1325820512946302977?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 10:07:54 AM
Interesting question now regarding possible shutdowns. Does this change the calculus. We can be reasonably confident now that there will be a vaccine readily available in 3-6 months.

With things as bad as they are, and getting worse. Do you focus on saving lives with another shutdown, knowing that in 3-6 months no more shutdowns would be needed?

If for no other reason, to avoid the risk of a mutated form (see minks) that may be resistant to the vaccine. More spread, more chance of mutation.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 10:15:34 AM
Interesting question now regarding possible shutdowns. Does this change the calculus. We can be reasonably confident now that there will be a vaccine readily available in 3-6 months.

With things as bad as they are, and getting worse. Do you focus on saving lives with another shutdown, knowing that in 3-6 months no more shutdowns would be needed?

If for no other reason, to avoid the risk of a mutated form (see minks) that may be resistant to the vaccine. More spread, more chance of mutation.

From a scientific perspective, you have a great point. There is a very good argument that can be made to shut things down for several weeks to tamp down the current exponential growth, and to reduce the risk of further mutations.

But I fear politicians and the general public will be influenced by the headline, making it a difficult (impossible?) sell. As I indicated earlier, my biggest fear is that this causes even more lax compliance with, and enforcement of, social distancing and mask requirements.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 10:47:44 AM
If I were to bet, from here forward shut-downs are going to be dictated at the local and state level and will be based on hospital stress.  Also, we know more about what needs to close, so more targeted versus blanket.

Like this:

https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge (https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge)

Also notice who was referenced as providing advice from the the Feds.

All this news makes the Scott Atlas experiment look really silly...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 10:51:48 AM
Really great summary of the implications of today’s news. 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/09/four-reasons-for-encouragement-based-on-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-results/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/09/four-reasons-for-encouragement-based-on-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-results/)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on November 09, 2020, 11:19:09 AM
Actually in the link provided earlier in the thread.    I know, because I read the link before I shared it.
Nice
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on November 09, 2020, 11:22:53 AM
Dr.Murphy from Northwestern on the radio right now says that they are waiting two months after the last participant got the second dose.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 09, 2020, 12:19:13 PM
Apologies for being lazy and not looking it up myself.  How is the 90% calculated?  Is it that 90% less trial participants have contracted covid than a similar representative control group?  Or 90% more show antibodies?   Just curious.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 12:27:17 PM
Apologies for being lazy and not looking it up myself.  How is the 90% calculated?  Is it that 90% less trial participants have contracted covid than a similar representative control group?  Or 90% more show antibodies?   Just curious.

Here is a link from the NIH, but I'm not smart enough to read it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 09, 2020, 12:28:12 PM
The article I read said they wanted 2 more months of data. I think it was partially inaccurate (likely journalist mis-stating aspects of an interview), in that they need a minimum of 2-months of safety data. Looks to be on track for initial use by late December.

I saw it the same way. There are 2 main questions with a vaccine. Does it work? Is it safe?

The first is the easiest to answer and the news is good. The second requires time. Even then, safety is not a certainty. As we have seen with many drugs over the years - they appear to be safe, until they aren't. Two months is not long enough to determine if there are long-term affects, but the trade-off is probably worth it in this case because of the rate at which people are dying.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 09, 2020, 12:48:54 PM
Here is a link from the NIH, but I'm not smart enough to read it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/)

Hah.  I can read it, but I don't understand it!  Fine, I searched myself, the CDC has a easier-to-understand answer:
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dsepd/ss1978/lesson3/section6.html

"So a VE of 90% indicates a 90% reduction in disease occurrence among the vaccinated group, or a 90% reduction from the number of cases you would expect if they have not been vaccinated."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 01:53:59 PM
If I were to bet, from here forward shut-downs are going to be dictated at the local and state level and will be based on hospital stress.  Also, we know more about what needs to close, so more targeted versus blanket.

Like this:

https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge (https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge)

Also notice who was referenced as providing advice from the the Feds.

All this news makes the Scott Atlas experiment look really silly...


I have a feeling more and more state and local officials will be listening directly to Fauci, Birx and Redfield, and simply ignoring the background noise from the White House.

I also suspect that if any of them get fired by POTUS for speaking up (a very real possibility), Biden will scoop them up and put them on his task force.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on November 09, 2020, 02:15:55 PM

I have a feeling more and more state and local officials will be listening directly to Fauci, Birx and Redfield, and simply ignoring the background noise from the White House.

I also suspect that if any of them get fired by POTUS for speaking up (a very real possibility), Biden will scoop them up and put them on his task force.

I'm hoping Biden will put whoever he feels can best perform the job, and not just take someone to spite Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 03:12:52 PM
I'm hoping Biden will put whoever he feels can best perform the job, and not just take someone to spite Donald Trump.


Agreed. But they have been in the midst of this since the beginning, so it's hard to imagine many people who would be more qualified. Fauci and Birx in particular have unparalleled credentials and experience. Redfield perhaps a little less so, but his time at the top of CDC would at least have made him privy to information that hardly anyone else would have.

Perhaps another way to say the same thing - IMO, they would be the most qualified people if they suddenly became available.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 09, 2020, 03:39:58 PM
A question for the experts here.

Obviously there is promising news from Pfizer. The bad news is that their vaccine requires cold storage - up to 100 degrees below zero.

My question is - do we have the capability to do this on a large scale? It would seem to preclude giving the vaccine at a doctor’s office. I don’t know that Walgreens or CVS have the capability for storage on the scale that is needed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 09, 2020, 03:45:22 PM
From what I read, they have developed special cold storage containers to get the vaccine though the distribution process.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 09, 2020, 03:47:36 PM
We?

Sounds like Pfizer is planning on doing it themselves:
https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/pfizer-sidelines-us-government-covid-19-vaccine-distribution-plan-favor-its-own-reports

https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-designed-new-container-and-plans-to-tap-shipping-companies-for-covid-19
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 03:55:26 PM
We?

Sounds like Pfizer is planning on doing it themselves:
https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/pfizer-sidelines-us-government-covid-19-vaccine-distribution-plan-favor-its-own-reports

https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-designed-new-container-and-plans-to-tap-shipping-companies-for-covid-19

Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today.  I wonder why.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 09, 2020, 04:17:51 PM
Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today.  I wonder why.

They did not take money from the US government if I remember correctly. They were not a part of Warp Speed despite what Pence claimed today.

Correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today.  I wonder why.


Because the WH has been really overt about (erroneously) claiming that Pifzer's project was funded by OWS, and Pfizer wants full credit for their efforts.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-celebrates-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-but-government-didnt-fund-2020-11

"We were never part of the Warp Speed," Kathrin Jansen, a senior vice president and the head of vaccine research and development at Pfizer, told The New York Times. "We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone."

Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla in September told CBS News' Margaret Brennan that the company was taking somewhat of a risk by not taking taxpayer money to help with the vaccine, but that it wouldn't "break" the pharmaceutical giant.

"I wanted to liberate our scientists from any bureaucracy," Bourla said. "When you get money from someone, that always comes with strings. They want to see how we are growing to progress, what types of moves you are going to do. They want reports. I didn't want to have any of that."

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 04:24:57 PM
A question for the experts here.

Obviously there is promising news from Pfizer. The bad news is that their vaccine requires cold storage - up to 100 degrees below zero.

My question is - do we have the capability to do this on a large scale? It would seem to preclude giving the vaccine at a doctor’s office. I don’t know that Walgreens or CVS have the capability for storage on the scale that is needed.

Although non-trivial, there are ways to get this to work. My lab alone, probably has enough storage for 10k-20k doses or more (depending on size).

In other areas, there are alternatives that can be designed. For instance, a storage container surrounded by dry-ice and isopropanol (isopropyl-alcohol), will maintain a temperature cold enough, and can be resupplied with more dry-ice.

And Pfizer has a lot of really bright people working on this exact issue for awhile. Off the top of my head, I can come up with about a dozen possible strategies, that given an engineering team and a modest budget and I'm pretty confident I could come up with something that would work. That's just me, who doesn't do logistics for a living. Pfizer has teams of people that have done this a lifetime.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 09, 2020, 04:26:23 PM
They did not take money from the US government if I remember correctly. They were not a part of Warp Speed despite what Pence claimed today.

Correct me if I am wrong.


They have not taken money from Warp Speed to help develop the vaccine.

However, they are part of Warp Speed's purchase program.  The US will buy 100 million doses of an effective vaccine for nearly $2 billion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine.html

So Pence isn't 100% wrong when he says they are part of OWS, but federal money had no bearing on the development of the vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 04:31:07 PM

They have not taken money from Warp Speed to help develop the vaccine.

However, they are part of Warp Speed's purchase program.  The US will buy 100 million doses of an effective vaccine for nearly $2 billion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine.html

So Pence isn't 100% wrong when he says they are part of OWS, but federal money had no bearing on the development of the vaccine.

Pence said this was the result of their unprecedented public-private partnership. That is false. It was done without government funds or direction.

If someone wants to give a president credit. First credit goes to George Bush, who created the initiative to greatly expand vaccine technology that directly led to the methodologies used here. Second credit goes to Obama, who expanded that initiative.

Without them, the decades+ of research that allowed this to be done at all, and also as quickly as it was, would be non-existent.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 04:53:59 PM
Pence said this was the result of their unprecedented public-private partnership. That is false. It was done without government funds or direction.

If someone wants to give a president credit. First credit goes to George Bush, who created the initiative to greatly expand vaccine technology that directly led to the methodologies used here. Second credit goes to Obama, who expanded that initiative.

Without them, the decades+ of research that allowed this to be done at all, and also as quickly as it was, would be non-existent.


Yep.

Taking credit for a public/private partnership that didn't exist is just par for the course for this Administration.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 09, 2020, 04:55:35 PM
Although non-trivial, there are ways to get this to work. My lab alone, probably has enough storage for 10k-20k doses or more (depending on size).

In other areas, there are alternatives that can be designed. For instance, a storage container surrounded by dry-ice and isopropanol (isopropyl-alcohol), will maintain a temperature cold enough, and can be resupplied with more dry-ice.

And Pfizer has a lot of really bright people working on this exact issue for awhile. Off the top of my head, I can come up with about a dozen possible strategies, that given an engineering team and a modest budget and I'm pretty confident I could come up with something that would work. That's just me, who doesn't do logistics for a living. Pfizer has teams of people that have done this a lifetime.

Thanks, man. That is the type of answer I was looking for.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 09, 2020, 07:06:50 PM
Potentially life-saving news here ...

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/09/world/covid-19-coronavirus-live-updates?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20201109&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline&regi_id=108420427&segment_id=44072&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-fda-gave-emergency-approval-to-eli-lillys-antibody-treatment

The Food and Drug Administration has granted emergency authorization of a Covid-19 treatment made by Eli Lilly that was given to Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor, when he was infected with the coronavirus.

The decision, announced on Monday by the agency, applies only to people newly infected with the virus, and came with a warning that it should not be used in hospitalized patients. The treatment is approved for people 12 and older, who have tested positive, and who are at risk for developing a severe form of Covid-19 or being hospitalized for the condition. That includes people who are over 65 and obese, the agency said — a key group that early studies have shown can benefit the most from the treatment.

Eli Lilly said that its treatment, called bamlanivimab, should be administered as soon as possible after a positive test, and within 10 days of developing symptoms.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on November 09, 2020, 08:08:38 PM
It comes with a warning that it shouldn’t be used in hospitalized patients? Wasn’t Christie hospitalized when he got it?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 10, 2020, 06:05:04 AM
Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today.  I wonder why.

I read this decision was an attempt to distance itself from the potential politics and maximize the number of people willing to take the vaccine, if successful.  Not pointed out to say they didn’t benefit from the govt infrastructure that has been helping to speed trials and pre buying doses. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on November 10, 2020, 06:50:28 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-coronavirus-drug-vaccine-status/

Bloomberg with a solid graphic updating us on where all these companies are with their vaccine candidates. Nice to see graphically because this has all been a bit much to keep straight.

(https://i.imgur.com/4EB1pSs.png) (https://i.imgur.com/4EB1pSs.png)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 10, 2020, 06:57:09 AM
I read this decision was an attempt to distance itself from the potential politics and maximize the number of people willing to take the vaccine, if successful.  Not pointed out to say they didn’t benefit from the govt infrastructure that has been helping to speed trials and pre buying doses.

Had two people tell me yesterday they won’t take it
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: cheebs09 on November 10, 2020, 08:33:07 AM
Had two people tell me yesterday they won’t take it

Did they give a reason? It seems to be far enough removed from the government that a substandard vaccine isn’t being approved for political reasons.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 10, 2020, 08:38:13 AM
Did they give a reason? It seems to be far enough removed from the government that a substandard vaccine isn’t being approved for political reasons.

One said they’ve never taken a flu shot, so he’s not going to take this one.  The other one said he just wasn’t taking it.  Both lean right, one way right.  To be fair, another person I know that lean way right is taking it as soon as he can
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 10, 2020, 09:05:15 AM
One said they’ve never taken a flu shot, so he’s not going to take this one.  The other one said he just wasn’t taking it.  Both lean right, one way right.  To be fair, another person I know that lean way right is taking it as soon as he can

Sounds like it’s a view on vaccines in general versus the politicization risk that was building pre election
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on November 10, 2020, 10:05:33 AM
Had two people tell me yesterday they won’t take it
I'd wait a few months before taking it to see if any zombie-like side effects appear.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 10, 2020, 10:05:44 AM
Sounds like it’s a view on vaccines in general versus the politicization risk that was building pre election


Yep...especially the person who said they'd never had a flu shot.

Anyhow, I hope your theory plays out the way you suggest...that the distance Pfizer kept between their vaccine and the politics will encourage more people to be confident in its safety and efficacy.

On a related note, infectious disease experts at Mayo Clinic are very excited about the potential of this vaccine.

https://www.medcitybeat.com/news-blog/2020/mayo-researchers-respond-pfizer-vaccine-results
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 10, 2020, 10:08:01 AM
I'd wait a few months before taking it to see if any zombie-like side effects appear.


I have a feeling that anyone outside of frontline healthcare workers will be waiting a few months whether they like it or not. If our doctors and nurses aren't turning into zombies by the time the rest of us can get it, that will be good enough for me.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 10, 2020, 10:55:36 AM
Sounds like it’s a view on vaccines in general versus the politicization risk that was building pre election

Entirely possible but it’s still disappointing
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2020, 10:59:45 AM

I have a feeling that anyone outside of frontline healthcare workers will be waiting a few months whether they like it or not. If our doctors and nurses aren't turning into zombies by the time the rest of us can get it, that will be good enough for me.

^^^^
This, I want to know its safe and effective, but there's really no chance "regular folks" are getting a vaccine until maybe March (earliest - I've head that's the target for elder/at risk patients). In a perfect world first doses are in Dec, but quantities won't be there until mid-late 2021 for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 10, 2020, 11:23:11 AM
^^^^
This, I want to know its safe and effective, but there's really no chance "regular folks" are getting a vaccine until maybe March (earliest - I've head that's the target for elder/at risk patients). In a perfect world first doses are in Dec, but quantities won't be there until mid-late 2021 for the rest of us.

That's what the experts have said all along, but people don't wanna do science.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on November 10, 2020, 01:26:59 PM
^^^^
This, I want to know its safe and effective, but there's really no chance "regular folks" are getting a vaccine until maybe March (earliest - I've head that's the target for elder/at risk patients). In a perfect world first doses are in Dec, but quantities won't be there until mid-late 2021 for the rest of us.
As long as I get to go to first round NCAAs this year.  Vaccine March 1st, on a plane March 17th, hanging with 20k other vaccinated folks March 18th/20th.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on November 10, 2020, 01:29:47 PM
Holding out hope for the J&J one, as I believe it is the only major player testing out a single dose.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2020, 01:36:38 PM
As long as I get to go to first round NCAAs this year.  Vaccine March 1st, on a plane March 17th, hanging with 20k other vaccinated folks March 18th/20th.

I've got some bridges (and vials of vaccines) to sell you :)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 10, 2020, 02:09:34 PM

I have a feeling that anyone outside of frontline healthcare workers will be waiting a few months whether they like it or not. If our doctors and nurses aren't turning into zombies by the time the rest of us can get it, that will be good enough for me.

So you arent waiting for EU approval anymore?  Hyperbole much?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on November 10, 2020, 02:10:18 PM
I've got some bridges (and vials of vaccines) to sell you :)
Quit crushing my fantasy world.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 10, 2020, 02:43:05 PM
So you arent waiting for EU approval anymore?  Hyperbole much?

My guess is of had been an OWS company that he'd still be waiting on EU approval. Different situation when it a non politicized company. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on November 10, 2020, 03:01:20 PM
Pence said this was the result of their unprecedented public-private partnership. That is false. It was done without government funds or direction.

If someone wants to give a president credit. First credit goes to George Bush, who created the initiative to greatly expand vaccine technology that directly led to the methodologies used here. Second credit goes to Obama, who expanded that initiative.

Without them, the decades+ of research that allowed this to be done at all, and also as quickly as it was, would be non-existent.
Didn't the government pre-pay for $2 billion worth of doses
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 10, 2020, 03:04:03 PM
Didn't the government pre-pay for $2 billion worth of doses

No.  The government agreed to pay $2 billion for 100 million doses if it proved to be effective.  This purchasing program is part of Warp Speed as well.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on November 10, 2020, 03:08:11 PM
No.  The government agreed to pay $2 billion for 100 million doses if it proved to be effective.  This purchasing program is part of Warp Speed as well.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 10, 2020, 03:36:48 PM
My guess is of had been an OWS company that he'd still be waiting on EU approval. Different situation when it a non politicized company.


We have a winner!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on November 10, 2020, 06:16:25 PM
My guess is of had been an OWS company that he'd still be waiting on EU approval. Different situation when it a non politicized company.

Yeah it takes just a little common sense to figure out.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 11, 2020, 12:12:36 PM

We have a winner!

FDA still has to approve it.  Too political still?

Mainly busting balls, BLM doesnt get it (doesnt get much) but figured you would.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on November 11, 2020, 12:27:48 PM
FDA still has to approve it.  Too political still?

Mainly busting balls, BLM doesnt get it (doesnt get much) but figured you would.

Ouch!

Can you blame me, though?  I'm just a rich white kid, ai'na?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 11, 2020, 03:51:42 PM
Ouch!

Can you blame me, though?  I'm just a rich white kid, ai'na?

You should change your screen name to white privilege.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on November 11, 2020, 03:54:03 PM
You should change your screen name to white privilege.

Appreciate the recommendation.  BLM triggers enough snowflakes around here, so I think I'll stick with what I've got.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 12, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
Not the best optics ...

From the WSJ:

Shortly after Pfizer’s share price surged Monday on news that its coronavirus vaccine was 90 percent effective, CEO Albert Bourla sold $5.6 million in company shares, amounting to 60 percent of his holdings. And he’s not alone: Execs at Moderna and Novavax did the same thing after positive news broke about their vaccines.

The companies, and even savvy investors, say it’s not unusual. Such executives often keep their shares in programs that unload company stock on predetermined dates or when prices hit certain targets. Nonetheless, some experts say it could erode confidence in the vaccines, which most Americans are already skeptical of.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 07:26:09 AM
Not the best optics ...

From the WSJ:

Shortly after Pfizer’s share price surged Monday on news that its coronavirus vaccine was 90 percent effective, CEO Albert Bourla sold $5.6 million in company shares, amounting to 60 percent of his holdings. And he’s not alone: Execs at Moderna and Novavax did the same thing after positive news broke about their vaccines.

The companies, and even savvy investors, say it’s not unusual. Such executives often keep their shares in programs that unload company stock on predetermined dates or when prices hit certain targets. Nonetheless, some experts say it could erode confidence in the vaccines, which most Americans are already skeptical of.
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 12, 2020, 07:29:07 AM
Some would say it is bad optics to tout snake oil.   Or go public before you have your ducks in a row
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 07:48:39 AM
Some would say it is bad optics to tout snake oil.   Or go public before you have your ducks in a row
I am not defending Trump (I can't stand him), but for people to say Pfizer, or it's announcement is nonpolitical is disingenuous.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on November 12, 2020, 07:50:24 AM
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.

They're stuck between a rock and a hard place.  Either way, 70m+ people are going to be salty.

I am not defending Trump (I can't stand him), but for people to say Pfizer, or it's announcement is nonpolitical is disingenuous.

Hogwash.  They have nothing to gain from a later announcement.  Put the conspiracy theories to rest.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 12, 2020, 07:59:51 AM
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ce7639ae29551105309e02665c155f86/tenor.gif?itemid=12023643)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 12, 2020, 08:05:09 AM
Iz hogwash anythin' moor dan soap and water? Axin' four a friend, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 08:11:41 AM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ce7639ae29551105309e02665c155f86/tenor.gif?itemid=12023643)
Why did Ezekial Emanuel (Biden's guy) author a letter to Bouria is September telling him to slow down the predictions of when the vaccine would be ready?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on November 12, 2020, 08:15:46 AM
Iz hogwash anythin' moor dan soap and water? Axin' four a friend, hey?

It's pig food, not what you clean them with.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on November 12, 2020, 08:30:13 AM
Voter fraud.  Conspiracies about vaccines (and news about vaccines) being held off to make sure Sleepy Joe gets elected president.  I'm loving this stuff.  Highly entertaining.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 12, 2020, 08:33:55 AM
Can we please not get this thread locked and move onto another topic.  This has been a helpful source of info.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on November 12, 2020, 08:56:46 AM
I am not defending Trump (I can't stand him), but for people to say Pfizer, or it's announcement is nonpolitical is disingenuous.
Or: Science

https://ldi.upenn.edu/news/five-ldi-senior-fellows-among-65-top-health-experts-letter-cautioning-pfizer-ceo-against

Eroding public trust
"In a Sept. 25 letter to Bouria, 65 of the nation's top academic health authorities told the CEO Pfizer's accelerated vaccine process was eroding public trust in ways that could ultimately cause enough people to refuse to take the drug, preventing the achievement of national herd immunity. Signing the letter were individual leaders from U.S. medical schools, including the University of Pennsylvania, University of California, Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Duke, Vanderbilt, George Washington, California, Tulane, Washington, and others."

<snip>

Rigorous safety standard
"If your vaccine is 75 percent effective," their letter told the Pfizer executive, "an estimated two thirds of the population would need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. This vaccination rate would far exceed that of the annual influenza vaccine. To be successful, the public needs to have the utmost trust in the vaccine and the science behind it. This is why a rigorous safety standard based on science is so essential."

An unfortunately large swatch of the electorate listens to Scott Atlas, promotes Dr. Demon Sperm's remedies, and sees George Soros around every corner, but we'd be far better off as a country if we'd listen to science.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 12, 2020, 09:44:43 AM
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.

There are at least 3 guiding factors on when to make the announcement.

1. Most importantly, they need to have sufficient data and analysis to ensure that their vaccine is as effective as they want to/can claim. For instance, if they want to make the 90% announcement (instead of say a 75% announcement) they need more data and have to wait longer. The 90% number is a big one, and even if they had sufficient data to announce, say 75%, they would wait for the 90% number.

2. Next most important. Competition. They would like to make sure that their announcement is preferentially first, and most effective. So they will be keeping an eye on other vaccine progress. It is then a bit of a game of chicken, wait longer to make a higher effectiveness claim (be best) and make the all early enough to be first.

3. News cycles. For stock price purposes, and public perception, you want to make your announcement when it will dominate the news cycle.

What is absolutely not part of the process is politics.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 12, 2020, 01:24:00 PM

There are at least 3 guiding factors on when to make the announcement.

1. Most importantly, they need to have sufficient data and analysis to ensure that their vaccine is as effective as they want to/can claim. For instance, if they want to make the 90% announcement (instead of say a 75% announcement) they need more data and have to wait longer. The 90% number is a big one, and even if they had sufficient data to announce, say 75%, they would wait for the 90% number.

2. Next most important. Competition. They would like to make sure that their announcement is preferentially first, and most effective. So they will be keeping an eye on other vaccine progress. It is then a bit of a game of chicken, wait longer to make a higher effectiveness claim (be best) and make the all early enough to be first.

3. News cycles. For stock price purposes, and public perception, you want to make your announcement when it will dominate the news cycle.

What is absolutely not part of the process is politics.



Agreed. There is HUGE $$$$ and prestige on the line, so it would be monumentally stupid to delay the announcement for anything but scientific or financial reasons.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 01:46:41 PM
Or: Science

https://ldi.upenn.edu/news/five-ldi-senior-fellows-among-65-top-health-experts-letter-cautioning-pfizer-ceo-against

Eroding public trust
"In a Sept. 25 letter to Bouria, 65 of the nation's top academic health authorities told the CEO Pfizer's accelerated vaccine process was eroding public trust in ways that could ultimately cause enough people to refuse to take the drug, preventing the achievement of national herd immunity. Signing the letter were individual leaders from U.S. medical schools, including the University of Pennsylvania, University of California, Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Duke, Vanderbilt, George Washington, California, Tulane, Washington, and others."
That quote does not sound like science to me. Sounds like these health authorities did not like who was giving the message.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on November 13, 2020, 04:49:16 PM
Saw a chart today (Colorado, but likely standard) on the phases of vaccine distro.

Phase 1 was about medical/first responders, 1B was "highest risk" elderly.

Next was "Congregate Housing" people .. homeless shelters, adults in group homes, students in dorms (!!!) and adults in jail (!!!!) -- and also workers who were in those buildings.

Next, Higher Risk people .. Age 65+, others with risk factors, diabetes, obesity, lung disease, etc. 

Last was the rest of us schlubs.

I'm having a bucket of KFC tonight to jump the line.  Or rob a bank?

Also .. will you need to prove your health risk?  "Yeah, I have asthma, gimme the shot now please."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 13, 2020, 04:59:30 PM
I (and I think I can speak for many others here), wish to wholeheartedly thank Forgetful and Goo for all of the information that they have shared here.

There have been a few others as well, but I think those 2 guys stand out.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 13, 2020, 05:04:16 PM
Saw a chart today (Colorado, but likely standard) on the phases of vaccine distro.

Phase 1 was about medical/first responders, 1B was "highest risk" elderly.

Next was "Congregate Housing" people .. homeless shelters, adults in group homes, students in dorms (!!!) and adults in jail (!!!!) -- and also workers who were in those buildings.

Next, Higher Risk people .. Age 65+, others with risk factors, diabetes, obesity, lung disease, etc. 

Last was the rest of us schlubs.

I'm having a bucket of KFC tonight to jump the line.  Or rob a bank?

Also .. will you need to prove your health risk?  "Yeah, I have asthma, gimme the shot now please."
More Arby's will be just fine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 14, 2020, 07:49:29 AM
With more than 100,000 new confirmed U.S. cases reported daily for more than a week, Trump has been more focused on tracking the rollout of a vaccine, which won’t be widely available for months. He has fumed that Pfizer intentionally withheld an announcement about progress on its vaccine trial until after Election Day, according to a White House official who was not authorized to publicly comment and spoke on condition of anonymity. Pfizer said it did not purposely withhold trial results.

Because, as usual, it's all about one person. Every human and corporation is doing everything just to punish that one person. Such a victim. So sad.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 09:21:15 AM
It's a pre-planned stock sale for Pfizer CEO. What was not pre-planned was the date of the announcement, which could have been any other day. The announcement just so happened to be on the same day as his stock sale, and he pockets $5.6 million. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 14, 2020, 09:40:22 AM
It's a pre-planned stock sale for Pfizer CEO. What was not pre-planned was the date of the announcement, which could have been any other day. The announcement just so happened to be on the same day as his stock sale, and he pockets $5.6 million.

I don't think this is precisely right.  He likely had a 10b5-1 program in place that said if the stock hit a certain value sell automatically.  This is used by people who are frequently locked out of the market for purposes of insider information and gives safe harbor since it is set up in advance.  This would be particularly true in the case of a vaccine news coming.  It would make it very difficult for executives to realize that portion of their compensation.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 10:09:03 AM
I don't think this is precisely right.  He likely had a 10b5-1 program in place that said if the stock hit a certain value sell automatically.  This is used by people who are frequently locked out of the market for purposes of insider information and gives safe harbor since it is set up in advance.  This would be particularly true in the case of a vaccine news coming.  It would make it very difficult for executives to realize that portion of their compensation.

He announced that he was modifying/adopting the 10b5-1 plan ONE DAY before announce phase results data. And this came shortly before this weeks announcement. Many of course are wondering what he knew and when. But I am sure it’s just a big coincidence. (Maybe he will be donating all of that money.)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 14, 2020, 11:09:24 AM
He announced that he was modifying/adopting the 10b5-1 plan ONE DAY before announce phase results data. And this came shortly before this weeks announcement. Many of course are wondering what he knew and when. But I am sure it’s just a big coincidence. (Maybe he will be donating all of that money.)

These are highly regulated processes involving corporate legal review. I’m sure he wanted to benefit from the fact that his company knocked it out of the park with both the first vaccine and a 90% effective vaccine.  He however did not profit from that until the market knew the same information.

I can see why this is a story, but the mechanics of it are all proper and in place to ensure one doesn’t trade on info until public. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 11:13:09 AM
These are highly regulated processes involving corporate legal review. I’m sure he wanted to benefit from the fact that his company knocked it out of the park with both the first vaccine and a 90% effective vaccine.  He however did not profit from that until the market knew the same information.

I can see why this is a story, but the mechanics of it are all proper and in place to ensure one doesn’t trade on info until public.

Being technically legal and being a good thing are not necessarily the same thing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on November 14, 2020, 11:16:30 AM
Being technically legal and being a good thing are not necessarily the same thing.

If the stock didn't hit the price point he picked and it didn't trigger a sale it would be non-news. Being a covered employee is a huge pain in the ass, and they watch ALL of the trades you make not just the ones involving stock options. It's incredibly highly regulated. You're barking up the wrong tree here.

I have to call in and tell a central office every planned purchase or sale of anything in the stock market because of reasons. They get to approve or deny it. They literally have access to my brokerage/retirement accounts to monitor it all. It's a wild amount of oversight, and super hard to make money off of the information we know in advance.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 14, 2020, 11:36:24 AM
Being technically legal and being a good thing are not necessarily the same thing.

You should just say your issue more plainly then.  You don’t believe people in the company should benefit from the value they created by solving a huge public need created by the virus. 

This literally has been the best news and biggest positive surprise of the pandemic. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 14, 2020, 01:29:10 PM
You should just say your issue more plainly then.  You don’t believe people in the company should benefit from the value they created by solving a huge public need created by the virus. 

This literally has been the best news and biggest positive surprise of the pandemic.


Agreed. Employees who own company stock should most definitely benefit from the value of what they created.

I only get upset about alleged insider trading when someone on the inside sells just before the stock price plummets...which clearly is NOT what happened here.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 03:26:42 PM
You should just say your issue more plainly then.  You don’t believe people in the company should benefit from the value they created by solving a huge public need created by the virus. 

This literally has been the best news and biggest positive surprise of the pandemic.

If anything, this is my issue:

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 14, 2020, 04:27:05 PM
If anything, this is my issue:

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/


A fair issue for debate, but it goes WAY beyond Pfizer, its vaccine and the recent stock sales.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 15, 2020, 02:51:47 PM
nm
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 16, 2020, 06:06:51 AM
Moderna 95% effective....

We now have at least two vaccines!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 16, 2020, 07:40:32 AM
Moderna 95% effective....

We now have at least two vaccines!

Reading the science behind these is fascinating.  The capabilities of humanity is amazing.  I don’t think we can celebrate the work these people are putting in enough
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 16, 2020, 07:58:54 AM
Are they able to be used in conjunction with another like how Pfizer's needs a 2nd dose, could you instead get moderna's? It'd help scaling it up in a huge way
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 16, 2020, 08:06:53 AM
Are they able to be used in conjunction with another like how Pfizer's needs a 2nd dose, could you instead get moderna's? It'd help scaling it up in a huge way

Looking for the Long Island Tea approach to vaccine management?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 16, 2020, 08:35:18 AM
Fantastic news on the Moderna vaccine!


Are they able to be used in conjunction with another like how Pfizer's needs a 2nd dose, could you instead get moderna's? It'd help scaling it up in a huge way


I don't think you'd use them together, but you could market both and people/docs could choose. Or maybe they'll restrict Moderna's initially to frontline workers and high risk patients, and Pfizer's to everyone else. Either way, BOTH are more effective than most have expected.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 16, 2020, 08:37:01 AM
Moderna doesn't have the extreme requirements for storage and transport.     That will probably make it the vaccine of choice in the long run.     Each require two shots.     And we don't know how long they last.     


Still, progress.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on November 16, 2020, 09:01:13 AM
Moderna is partnered with someone, iirc? They have never released a commercially viable product before...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 16, 2020, 09:27:09 AM
Moderna 95% effective....

We now have at least two vaccines!

One point of clarity. These effectiveness claims are what they can currently claim based on existing data. The Moderna claim is based 95 total infections (90 in placebo; 5 in vaccine). Since both groups contained the same total number of patients (15,000), you can simplify the math to: (90-5)/90=94.4% efficacy.

Based on the numbers, I bet Moderna was close to being able to make their announcement around when Pfizer did, but Pfizer beat them to it, so they targeted the 95% effectiveness claim and needed to wait until a few more cases in the control group emerged.

Also, in both cases I wouldn't be surprised if the actual efficacy is higher. Without seeing all the data, some of the 5 infections in the vaccine group may have been before full immunity was achieved.

The good news is this means we have 2 highly effective vaccines. The bad news is by the end of the year, they think they will only have enough doses to vaccinate 35 million people combined, and not all of those will go to the US.

We really have to thank decisions made during the Bush (and accelerated under Obama) for these breakthroughs. Bush recognized a need to develop new and improved technology for vaccines and funded DARPA to do it. These results emerged from those initiatives. Incidentally, because of the first SARS outbreak at a similar time as the initial rounds of funding, we also benefitted from prior experience on a very closely related disease with this technology.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 16, 2020, 09:36:56 AM
Both administrations created pandemic plans.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 16, 2020, 09:57:43 AM
We really have to thank decisions made during the Bush (and accelerated under Obama) for these breakthroughs. Bush recognized a need to develop new and improved technology for vaccines and funded DARPA to do it. These results emerged from those initiatives. Incidentally, because of the first SARS outbreak at a similar time as the initial rounds of funding, we also benefitted from prior experience on a very closely related disease with this technology.

We all stand on the shoulders of Giants.

Really glad to see the upcoming administration and the current bureaucrats changing the messaging on what we need to do.  Targeted interventions, light at the end of the tunnel, short-term sacrifice for a big payoff of normalcy.  I hope others jump on board.

By the way its great to see France checking their resurgence.  It shows that the targeted intervention method works.  It is broadly the same as what MI implemented....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 16, 2020, 10:23:21 AM
Also, big Kudos to CEPI and the Gates foundation for pioneering and funding work on these vaccines within 2-days of China announcing the sequence.

I think they are not getting credit for their contributions, because of the backlash and conspiracy theories revolving around Gates.

Note: Not surprising that a certain individual is claiming credit for what these groups led, funded, and pioneered.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 16, 2020, 12:55:51 PM
Also, big Kudos to CEPI and the Gates foundation for pioneering and funding work on these vaccines within 2-days of China announcing the sequence.

I think they are not getting credit for their contributions, because of the backlash and conspiracy theories revolving around Gates.

Note: Not surprising that a certain individual is claiming credit for what these groups led, funded, and pioneered.

Gates Foundation was vital to not just this effort, but to health initiatives - especially for women - around the world.

Melinda is very smart women who has made a difference in many countries. When she was asked a couple months ago to give a grade to trump’s actions on Covid, she gave him a D-. I think she was trying to be nice.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on November 16, 2020, 04:55:05 PM
As long as I get to go to first round NCAAs this year.  Vaccine March 1st, on a plane March 17th, hanging with 20k other vaccinated folks March 18th/20th.


I've got some bridges (and vials of vaccines) to sell you :)


I blame you Rocky:  ;D

NCAA planning to host the entire men's March Madness in Indianapolis

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/16/us/ncaa-march-madness-indianapolis-trnd-spt/index.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 16, 2020, 05:05:49 PM
I blame you Rocky:  ;D

Unlike some, I accept full blame!  But I still have some bridges left if you're in need :)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 16, 2020, 05:42:53 PM
Late to the game but signed up for J&J's vaccine trials at U of Chicago.

Hope I get selected
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 17, 2020, 09:17:25 AM
With the first vaccine rollouts about a month away, who thinks the distribution will be even remotely equitable?

Or will rollouts to non-medical workers largely based on access and financial well being.

I have a feeling there will be a lot of wealthy people with bone-spurs qualifying as "high-risk".
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on November 17, 2020, 09:48:21 AM
With the first vaccine rollouts about a month away, who thinks the distribution will be even remotely equitable?

Or will rollouts to non-medical workers largely based on access and financial well being.

I have a feeling there will be a lot of wealthy people with bone-spurs qualifying as "high-risk".

Absolutely.

Ever seen the movie Elysium? That's where we're headed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on November 17, 2020, 10:28:34 AM
With the first vaccine rollouts about a month away, who thinks the distribution will be even remotely equitable?

Or will rollouts to non-medical workers largely based on access and financial well being.

I have a feeling there will be a lot of wealthy people with bone-spurs qualifying as "high-risk".

You mean the same ones that get to go on vacation all over the world on private jets?

I'm truly shocked.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 17, 2020, 10:31:06 AM
You mean the same ones that get to go on vacation all over the world on private jets?

I'm truly shocked.

Places like Maui?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on November 17, 2020, 10:45:22 AM
Places like Maui?

I don't get this reference.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 17, 2020, 10:52:56 AM
I don't get this reference.

https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605)

Thee, not me.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 17, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
Well, that is dumb.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 17, 2020, 10:59:36 AM
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605)

Thee, not me.

That's bad optics and uncool, really owe the public an apology. See what we did there? Now you try it with all the stupid stuff your guys have done  :)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 17, 2020, 11:06:55 AM
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605)

Thee, not me.

Reprehensible behavior, and a terrible headline. It was lawmakers from four states, including Texas and Washington. Very misleading to make this appear like it was California only.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 17, 2020, 11:27:45 AM
Reprehensible behavior, and a terrible headline. It was lawmakers from four states, including Texas and Washington. Very misleading to make this appear like it was California only.

Direct your concerns to politico then.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 17, 2020, 11:29:34 AM
That's bad optics and uncool, really owe the public an apology. See what we did there? Now you try it with all the stupid stuff your guys have done  :)

Both sides, aina.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on November 17, 2020, 12:36:02 PM
What a dumb thing to do. Dumb for the group organizing it, and dumb for the people who went.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 17, 2020, 12:38:07 PM
The news keeps getting better.  There is a new study that points to long term immunity potential. Would be great news both for those who already had the disease but could also be good news for vaccination (don’t need annual shot).  Let’s hope the study holds up and plays out in practice.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html)

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1328764862487351296?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1328764862487351296?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 17, 2020, 01:10:32 PM
It would be nice to not get this again for a few years.

But instead of an annual vaccine, a la a flu shot, get a 5 year booster, similar to a tetanus shot.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on November 17, 2020, 03:46:54 PM
What's tower always say?  Always be science-ing.

Good news in the mid-term future if this pans out.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 17, 2020, 04:37:30 PM
What's tower always say?  Always be science-ing.

Good news in the mid-term future if this pans out.

#keepsciencing
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on November 18, 2020, 12:07:26 AM
Looks like we have Miss Dolly Parton to thank (at least partially) for the Moderna vaccine:

https://slate.com/culture/2020/11/dolly-parton-coronavirus-vaccine-podcast-explained.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 18, 2020, 05:50:02 AM
Looks like we have Miss Dolly Parton to thank (at least partially) for the Moderna vaccine:

https://slate.com/culture/2020/11/dolly-parton-coronavirus-vaccine-podcast-explained.html

I saw a funny line yesterday that called for her next act to record a PSA for Vaccine to the tune of Jolene
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 18, 2020, 07:25:31 AM
More good news from Pfizer ...

Pfizer releases the final results of its Covid-19 vaccine trial. The drugmaker said today that its treatment was 95 percent effective and had no serious side effects, two weeks after its initial findings propelled hopes about coronavirus vaccines. Pfizer said it planned to apply for F.D.A. emergency authorization “within days,” and could have enough doses for 25 million people available by year end.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 18, 2020, 09:25:10 AM
More good news from Pfizer ...

Pfizer releases the final results of its Covid-19 vaccine trial. The drugmaker said today that its treatment was 95 percent effective and had no serious side effects, two weeks after its initial findings propelled hopes about coronavirus vaccines. Pfizer said it planned to apply for F.D.A. emergency authorization “within days,” and could have enough doses for 25 million people available by year end.

Applying for the EUA is great news. And based on what is available on the safety side, it will absolutely be granted.

Now the rollout and ramping up production.

...technically I could craft my own vaccine based on the Pfizer data.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2020, 09:47:05 AM
Applying for the EUA is great news. And based on what is available on the safety side, it will absolutely be granted.

Now the rollout and ramping up production.

...technically I could craft my own vaccine based on the Pfizer data.


Agreed - this is great news.

But the transition from producing thousands of doses for clinical trials, to hundreds of millions of doses for widespread public use is a challenge in the best of circumstances. Therefore the goal of vaccinating 22.5 to 25 million by the end of the year, or even the end of January, is a best-case scenario. And CDC estimates there are currently about 18 million healthcare workers in the US. When you add first responders like firefighters, police and such, it will probably take until February or March before they even get to the next high-risk groups like the elderly and seriously ill.

The rest of us can hope for vaccinations by maybe May or June if things go well.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 18, 2020, 09:53:14 AM

Agreed - this is great news.

But the transition from producing thousands of doses for clinical trials, to hundreds of millions of doses for widespread public use is a challenge in the best of circumstances. Therefore the goal of vaccinating 22.5 to 25 million by the end of the year, or even the end of January, is a best-case scenario. And CDC estimates there are currently about 18 million healthcare workers in the US. When you add first responders like firefighters, police and such, it will probably take until February or March before they even get to the next high-risk groups like the elderly and seriously ill.

The rest of us can hope for vaccinations by maybe May or June if things go well.

In my state educators are considered front-line workers so we are on the same tier as medical workers. Not sure that I agree with that assessment, but it could mean that I am closer to the early rounds of dosing. Really all depends on which organizations though apply as "providers" and how the states approve each provider.

And although I could technically make my own. I wouldn't trust injecting it into an enemy. Too many variables and too much potential risk (although there are people out there already vaccinating themselves).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 19, 2020, 06:13:05 AM
From NYT:

Dr. Anthony Fauci said that at least 75 percent of society would need to take the Covid-19 vaccine, even if it had 95 percent efficacy, before it was safe to stop wearing masks and social distancing. That’s a very high threshold considering how polarized things are in the U.S. over basic steps like masking, let alone getting a shot (perhaps twice). So returning to normality could take longer than imagined, which will matter for business plans and government policies.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on November 19, 2020, 07:05:21 AM
There was a good WSJ podcast episode with Biden's coronavirus task force lead. She harped on the fact that the vaccine may prevent you from getting symptoms, but you could still spread the disease. They still don't have their hands wrapped around how many asymptomatic spreaders there are.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on November 19, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
This was an interesting read ..

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/19/self-interest-nudged-me-to-join-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-trial/

TLDR: Signed up for the study.  Got a shot, half chance it was a placebo but felt like he had a mild flu the next morning, knew it was real.

Month later, 2nd shot.  Doc told him the reaction to shot#2 is stronger.   Hours after shot, every muscle hurt, temp spiked to 99.9, felt like real flu.  Resolved 24 hours later.

In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on November 19, 2020, 09:25:39 AM
This was an interesting read ..

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/19/self-interest-nudged-me-to-join-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-trial/

TLDR: Signed up for the study.  Got a shot, half chance it was a placebo but felt like he had a mild flu the next morning, new it was real.

Month later, 2nd shot.  Doc told him the reaction to shot#2 is stronger.   Hours after shot, every muscle hurt, temp spiked to 99.9, felt like real flu.  Resolved 24 hours later.

In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.

Basically, everyone that gets the second shot will have a sick day the day after.  Or they get their shots on Fridays and Saturdays.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2020, 09:27:41 AM

In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.

Let me tell you about my last 12 days...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 19, 2020, 09:54:33 AM
This was an interesting read ..

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/19/self-interest-nudged-me-to-join-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-trial/

TLDR: Signed up for the study.  Got a shot, half chance it was a placebo but felt like he had a mild flu the next morning, knew it was real.

Month later, 2nd shot.  Doc told him the reaction to shot#2 is stronger.   Hours after shot, every muscle hurt, temp spiked to 99.9, felt like real flu.  Resolved 24 hours later.

In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.


Unfortunate...but it beats the he!! out of getting Covid.

FWIW, the prevalence and severity of adverse reactions seems to be lower with the Pfizer vaccine. If this holds true, I'm gonna fight too get that one if I can...but I would still take the Moderna if it's the only one available to me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/18/health/pfizer-covid-vaccine.html

Pfizer and BioNTech said that the vaccine’s efficacy was consistent across age, race and ethnicity. The most common serious adverse event was fatigue, with 3.7 percent of volunteers reporting tiredness after they took the second dose. Two percent of volunteers reported a headache after the second dose. Older adults reported fewer and milder side effects, the companies said.

https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-covid-2020-11

The one serious side effect that occurred after the first dose was injection site pain, reported by 2.7% of participants. Here are the severe side effects that people in the trial reported after the second dose:

Fatigue in 9.7% of participants
Muscle aches in 8.9%
Joint aches in 5.2%
Headache in 4.5%
Pain at the injection site in 4.1%
Redness around the injection site in 2%



Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 19, 2020, 09:59:02 AM
From NYT:

Dr. Anthony Fauci said that at least 75 percent of society would need to take the Covid-19 vaccine, even if it had 95 percent efficacy, before it was safe to stop wearing masks and social distancing. That’s a very high threshold considering how polarized things are in the U.S. over basic steps like masking, let alone getting a shot (perhaps twice). So returning to normality could take longer than imagined, which will matter for business plans and government policies.

The ultimate irony: the people who complain most loudly about masks, business restrictions and vaccines will be the very ones to make masks and business restrictions necessary for a longer period oof time.

And they are completely oblivious to this reality.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 19, 2020, 10:12:01 AM

Unfortunate...but it beats the he!! out of getting Covid.

FWIW, the prevalence and severity of adverse reactions seems to be lower with the Pfizer vaccine. If this holds true, I'm gonna fight too get that one if I can...but I would still take the Moderna if it's the only one available to me.


I too would prefer the Pfizer vaccine.

And based on what I've seen friends who are in tremendous shape go through. I'd do just about anything to get a vaccine now, I'll gladly take one day of mild flu like symptoms. Heck, I'll take a weekend of flu-like symptoms.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 19, 2020, 10:15:45 AM
I have a feeling preferences are not going to matter.  Hopefully we have more choices by then too...I hear Oxford is close to reporting out.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 19, 2020, 10:22:22 AM
I have a feeling preferences are not going to matter.  Hopefully we have more choices by then too...I hear Oxford is close to reporting out.

Every new one approved brings the timeline for everyone getting vaccinated and a return to normalcy that much closer.

If a vaccine were released that was say 70-80% effective would that still be put into production?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on November 19, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
From NYT:

Dr. Anthony Fauci said that at least 75 percent of society would need to take the Covid-19 vaccine, even if it had 95 percent efficacy, before it was safe to stop wearing masks and social distancing.

Did he explain that better?

I mean .. say my family gets the vaccine, two shots, and yeah, wait a month for it to reach full efficacy.

We could be exposed to the virus and our immune system would fight it with ~90% effectiveness.   Pretty good odds we don't get sick, nor spread the virus further.

What would be the purpose for wearing masks after a full dose of the vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on November 19, 2020, 11:04:24 AM
Did he explain that better?

I mean .. say my family gets the vaccine, two shots, and yeah, wait a month for it to reach full efficacy.

We could be exposed to the virus and our immune system would fight it with ~90% effectiveness.   Pretty good odds we don't get sick, nor spread the virus further.

What would be the purpose for wearing masks after a full dose of the vaccine?

I think the misunderstanding is that you still get sick when you have a vaccine, your body just knows how to fight off the infection. You can still be an asymptomatic spreader if you're vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 19, 2020, 11:50:40 AM
I think the misunderstanding is that you still get sick when you have a vaccine, your body just knows how to fight off the infection. You can still be an asymptomatic spreader if you're vaccinated.

Isn't more that they don't know if you can be an asymptomatic spreader versus "you can...".

Hopefully they study this with the trial group and have a stronger POV by the time everyone is lining up for the vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on November 19, 2020, 01:49:31 PM
Isn't more that they don't know if you can be an asymptomatic spreader versus "you can...".

Hopefully they study this with the trial group and have a stronger POV by the time everyone is lining up for the vaccine.

You're right, the vaccine could be 100% effective. Unlikely but possible.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 19, 2020, 01:57:30 PM
You're right, the vaccine could be 100% effective. Unlikely but possible.

I see what you were implying.  I was referring to people within the 90%.  I’ve read that they don’t know yet if they can spread. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 21, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
I think we all agree that medical professionals and 1st responders should be the first to get the vaccine. But, then who is next?

Should we vaccinate the most vulnerable (elderly, those with pre-existing conditions, etc.) or might it be better to vaccinate those who are spreading the disease (18-30 years old) first?

I tend toward the vulnerable, but understand the other argument as well. I think the thing that seals the argument for me is that the vulnerable will be much, much easier to vaccinate.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 21, 2020, 12:02:32 PM
Pretty sure those incarcerated at next in line, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on November 21, 2020, 12:03:48 PM
Educators next?
Elderly so they can enjoy time left on this mortal coil?
Anti maskers? Very last people in line.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 21, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
If you have had it, do you give up your place in line?   I know I am going to be offered the vaccine in the next 3 months.  Will the vaccine double down on protection?    Which will provide longer protection?

My instinct is to move back in the line. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 21, 2020, 01:29:51 PM
If you have had it, do you give up your place in line?   I know I am going to be offered the vaccine in the next 3 months.  Will the vaccine double down on protection?    Which will provide longer protection?

My instinct is to move back in the line.

I thought about this before, actually had a post related to it that I changed to nm.

I think in an ideal world, we would test everyone for antibodies before vaccination. If you have a prior positive test in the last 6-months, or antibodies indicating a previous infection, do not vaccinate now. Place priority on others. That way we can get to herd immunity faster.

The problem with this is two fold. 1) What about false positive tests in either prior infection, or antibodies. 2) We know people can be infected a 2nd time, and we do not know about the added benefit of the vaccine on top of prior infections. It may be prudent to vaccinate them again.

A third aspect. Has the vaccine's safety been tested in people with prior infections? I don't think issues would be likely, but I also don't think we can know for certain until it has been tested.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on November 21, 2020, 02:11:52 PM
Educators should be next up after healthcare and emergency services.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on November 21, 2020, 02:13:09 PM
My 40 year old self in good health ain’t getting shizz until like July.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on November 21, 2020, 02:13:34 PM
If you have had it, do you give up your place in line?   I know I am going to be offered the vaccine in the next 3 months.  Will the vaccine double down on protection?    Which will provide longer protection?

My instinct is to move back in the line.

I have not gotten an antibody test because it likely would not have made a difference in my behavior.
I may have had it early on before testing was available.
You bring up a really good reason to pull the trigger on a test now though. Will look into it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 21, 2020, 02:36:17 PM
Educators should be next up after healthcare and emergency services.


I think the first after healthcare and emergency services should be the less obvious 'essential' workers who really are essential for our basic day-to-day survival, like grocery store clerks, food production and delivery personnel, people who maintain our utilities, etc.

Educators are critically important for society and should be in the next group, but they aren't as immediately necessary for our basic day-to-day survival as people who give us access to food, water, heat, etc.

 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on November 21, 2020, 03:26:50 PM

I think the first after healthcare and emergency services should be the less obvious 'essential' workers who really are essential for our basic day-to-day survival, like grocery store clerks, food production and delivery personnel, people who maintain our utilities, etc.

Educators are critically important for society and should be in the next group, but they aren't as immediately necessary for our basic day-to-day survival as people who give us access to food, water, heat, etc.

 

Nah. Education.

You can shop while distancing with masks and be safe.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on November 21, 2020, 03:36:11 PM
Nah. Education.

You can shop while distancing with masks and be safe.

How much spread has been in schools by teachers?  My wife is an elementary teacher.  There has been no psread that she knows of in school.  All come from outside activities (dance teams going to tournaments and hanging out with several other teams inside for 6-8 hours).

Hopefully the research is being done to figure this out.  Maybe it is teachers and our district is the exception.
Whatever it is it will be good to start getting people vaccinated and getting back to normal slowly
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 21, 2020, 03:58:08 PM
Nah. Education.

You can shop while distancing with masks and be safe.



You can teach with masks and social distancing too. And you can also survive for a few months without in-person learning, but you can't without food and clean water.

I have HUGE respect for educators - my wife works in the local public school system - and I understand the critical long-term importance of education. But if we are going to prioritize based on necessity, we should start with the functions we need just to get by from day to day. Healthcare, emergency workers, food, clean water, electricity.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on November 21, 2020, 04:24:36 PM
How much spread has been in schools by teachers?  My wife is an elementary teacher.  There has been no psread that she knows of in school.  All come from outside activities (dance teams going to tournaments and hanging out with several other teams inside for 6-8 hours).

Hopefully the research is being done to figure this out.  Maybe it is teachers and our district is the exception.
Whatever it is it will be good to start getting people vaccinated and getting back to normal slowly

Here's a post from earlier this month in the K-12 thread.

Studies are finally coming out that state the obvious: Schools reopening is dramatically increasing the R0 of coronavirus when analyzing the impact of 790 'phases' across 131 countries

> Reopening schools was associated with a 24-per-cent increase in R after 28 days, although the researchers cautioned they were unable to account for different precautions some countries implemented for reopening schools, such as limiting class sizes, social distancing, cleaning, personal hygiene, face masks, and temperature checks.

The article: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/coronavirus-r-rate-school-closures-lockdown-lancet-study-b1251617.html

The study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30785-4/fulltext
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 21, 2020, 04:34:28 PM

I think the first after healthcare and emergency services should be the less obvious 'essential' workers who really are essential for our basic day-to-day survival, like grocery store clerks, food production and delivery personnel, people who maintain our utilities, etc.

Educators are critically important for society and should be in the next group, but they aren't as immediately necessary for our basic day-to-day survival as people who give us access to food, water, heat, etc.

But those people are really just minimum wage workers, they should just be happy they have jobs.

Not to mention, what are their supervisors supposed to bet on if the COVID risk decreases?



...this doesn't actually need teal does it?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on November 21, 2020, 04:35:17 PM
I can shop with a mask and distance and be reasonably safe. But the workers have to deal with the anti-maskers and those who won’t distance for whatever reason, plus they are in the environment all day. You cannot compare shoppers with workers.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 21, 2020, 06:03:33 PM
But those people are really just minimum wage workers, they should just be happy they have jobs.

Not to mention, what are their supervisors supposed to bet on if the COVID risk decreases?



...this doesn't actually need teal does it?

A great post (until you added the rider at the end). ;)

If people are unable to recognize snark and/or sarcasm, it’s their problem - not yours.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 22, 2020, 03:19:15 PM
A new Gallup poll shows Americans' willingness to get Covid vaccine is increasing...from 50% in September to 58% in late October. And this was before Pfizer and Moderna both showed high effectiveness and a low level of side effects.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/325208/americans-willing-covid-vaccine.aspx

There are probably lots of reasons for the increase, from the fall surge to the economic toll of the pandemic. For me though, it's largely two things: (1) the fact that the companies seem to be following a more realistic timeline than the ones hailed by the Administration a few months ago (respecting science over politics?); and (2) the fact that two companies making the same type of vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna use mRNA) showed very similar results.

It also helps that the rollout will be more gradual than the Administration predicted...meaning that average, relatively healthy middle aged guys like me probably won't have access until late spring or early summer. By then, researchers will know even more about possible long-term side effects, since it will be several months post-vaccination for the clinical trial participants.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 22, 2020, 04:00:43 PM
Discussed with my 13 YO while hiking in the woods the philosophical and ethical issues of whether I should get the vaccine early or move to the back of the line.  He immediately said that I should go to the end of the line.   He rightly points out that in 6-8 months it will be like getting a booster.   

Raising another smart one.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 22, 2020, 04:42:58 PM
Fahrenheit, my ass is takin' dat vaccine da furst moment itz available ta mee, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 22, 2020, 04:45:36 PM
A new Gallup poll shows Americans' willingness to get Covid vaccine is increasing...from 50% in September to 58% in late October. And this was before Pfizer and Moderna both showed high effectiveness and a low level of side effects.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/325208/americans-willing-covid-vaccine.aspx

There are probably lots of reasons for the increase, from the fall surge to the economic toll of the pandemic. For me though, it's largely two things: (1) the fact that the companies seem to be following a more realistic timeline than the ones hailed by the Administration a few months ago (respecting science over politics?); and (2) the fact that two companies making the same type of vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna use mRNA) showed very similar results.

It also helps that the rollout will be more gradual than the Administration predicted...meaning that average, relatively healthy middle aged guys like me probably won't have access until late spring or early summer. By then, researchers will know even more about possible long-term side effects, since it will be several months post-vaccination for the clinical trial participants.

This is good news. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 23, 2020, 08:32:37 AM
Discussed with my 13 YO while hiking in the woods the philosophical and ethical issues of whether I should get the vaccine early or move to the back of the line.  He immediately said that I should go to the end of the line.   He rightly points out that in 6-8 months it will be like getting a booster.   

Raising another smart one.

If it were me, I would consult someone who is an expert in the field versus banking on an immune response assumption.  I don't think this is as clear-cut as you would like to believe to only bucket it as an ethical question versus one of safety for front for a frontline worker.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 23, 2020, 08:38:46 AM
You are saying you don't trust the antibodies developed through the virus.   Is it the strength or the duration that concerns you?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 23, 2020, 08:56:53 AM
You are saying you don't trust the antibodies developed through the virus.   Is it the strength or the duration that concerns you?

I've read that there is some predictability & strength benefits of a vaccine versus natural infection.  I am not a medical professional and don't know enough to make a recommendation.  I've just seen enough discussion about the topic by experts that would make me do more homework before declining.

Edit: by the way, you will probably have a good set of role models soon.  If ER docs who have had infection start posting that they got the vaccine (or for that matter are forgoing), that should be a good signal of which way you should go.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 23, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
Interesting that Astra Zeneca is feeling pressure by Pfizer/Moderna to show 90% efficacy results (could happen with 2 shots).  70% is still pretty good with one shot.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-oxford-astra-zeneca-vaccine-shows-over-70-efficacy-080349205.html


edit: incorrect information
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 23, 2020, 12:47:03 PM
Interesting that Astra Zeneca is feeling pressure by Pfizer/Moderna to show 90% efficacy results (could happen with 2 shots).  70% is still pretty good with one shot.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-oxford-astra-zeneca-vaccine-shows-over-70-efficacy-080349205.html

My understanding is that both efficacy numbers are two shots.  It's just that the higher efficacy was half dose then full and the lower efficacy was full dose & full dose. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 23, 2020, 01:07:03 PM
My understanding is that both efficacy numbers are two shots.  It's just that the higher efficacy was half dose then full and the lower efficacy was full dose & full dose.

Thanks for the correction.  70% was the average of the two dosing schemes

https://apnews.com/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-third-cheaper-oxford-c99d26eb2946f6fde45a1edc002ff028
Quote
The AstraZeneca trial looked at two different dosing regimens. A half-dose of the vaccine followed by a full dose at least one month later was 90% effective. Another approach, giving patients two full doses one month apart, was 62% effective.

That means that, overall, when both ways of dosing are considered, the vaccine showed an efficacy rate of 70%.

Seems like one of those dosing methods should not be used :)

Also, pricing is nice:
Quote
AstraZeneca, which has pledged it won’t make a profit on the vaccine during the pandemic, has reached agreements with governments and international health organizations that put its cost at about $2.50 a dose. Pfizer’s vaccine costs about $20, while Moderna’s is $15 to $25, based on agreements the companies have struck to supply their vaccines to the U.S. government.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 23, 2020, 01:37:50 PM
I'm guessing the less extreme temperature requirements and price will make AZ the vaccine of choice in less developed countries.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 23, 2020, 04:00:55 PM
Interesting that Astra Zeneca is feeling pressure by Pfizer/Moderna to show 90% efficacy results (could happen with 2 shots).  70% is still pretty good with one shot.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-oxford-astra-zeneca-vaccine-shows-over-70-efficacy-080349205.html


edit: incorrect information

I'm interested in seeing some of the finer grain detail in how these calculations have been made. Particularly as it relates to identifying and defining "positive cases."

AZ has suggested that their lower efficacy is in part based on more stringent definition of positive cases than Pfizer and Moderna used. Without seeing full reports, I can't evaluate the validity of that claim, or how one can define a positive case differently.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on November 23, 2020, 09:11:20 PM
My understanding is that both efficacy numbers are two shots.  It's just that the higher efficacy was half dose then full and the lower efficacy was full dose & full dose.
Can you sciencey type folks explain why a half dose/full dose regimen is more effective than a full dose/full dose regimen? Just curious.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 23, 2020, 09:59:11 PM
Can you sciencey type folks explain why a half dose/full dose regimen is more effective than a full dose/full dose regimen? Just curious.

Honestly, not relly. And I'm not sure they can explain it either. The best anyone can really do on that is make a couple educated guesses.

My best guess would be something along the first lower dose priming the whole system for a more robust and highly-specific response upon the second full dose.

In the other dosing regime, the first full dose may elicit a more full immune response, that is simply re-initiated upon the second dose.

But that is merely a guess.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 23, 2020, 10:40:03 PM
Can you sciencey type folks explain why a half dose/full dose regimen is more effective than a full dose/full dose regimen? Just curious.

It’s a really odd situation, which I found very surprising.

The article below suggests that it might just be a statistical anomaly, based on the fact that only a small number of participants got the half-dose regimen. And if it isn’t an anomaly, the article suggests two possible mechanisms that could explain the result.

Bottom line: lots of immunologists and biostatisticians are scratching their heads right now.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03326-w

She has two leading theories for why a lower first dose might have led to better protection against COVID. It’s possible that lower doses of vaccine do a better job at stimulating the subset of immune cells called T cells that support the production of antibodies, she says.

Another potential explanation is the immune system’s response against the chimpanzee virus. The vaccine triggers an immune response not only to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, but also to components of the viral vector. It’s possible that the full first dose blunted this reaction, says Ewer. She plans to look at antibody responses against the chimpanzee virus to help address this question.



Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 24, 2020, 05:34:49 AM
It was also an accident.  No one was supposed to receive a half dose. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 24, 2020, 08:30:07 AM
It was also an accident.  No one was supposed to receive a half dose.


Yeah - I first heard that late last night.

It shows how sometimes we might stumble into some of the best answers by chance. The first pacemaker was the result of a guy who accidentally put the wrong transistor into a heart rhythm recording device he was building....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 24, 2020, 09:07:01 AM
It’s a really odd situation, which I found very surprising.

The article below suggests that it might just be a statistical anomaly, based on the fact that only a small number of participants got the half-dose regimen. And if it isn’t an anomaly, the article suggests two possible mechanisms that could explain the result.

Bottom line: lots of immunologists and biostatisticians are scratching their heads right now.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03326-w

She has two leading theories for why a lower first dose might have led to better protection against COVID. It’s possible that lower doses of vaccine do a better job at stimulating the subset of immune cells called T cells that support the production of antibodies, she says.

Another potential explanation is the immune system’s response against the chimpanzee virus. The vaccine triggers an immune response not only to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, but also to components of the viral vector. It’s possible that the full first dose blunted this reaction, says Ewer. She plans to look at antibody responses against the chimpanzee virus to help address this question.


The statistical anomaly is likely the best explanation. Otherwise it is pretty much guesswork.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2020, 09:34:40 AM
I think .. this is relatively impressive. 

All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing.  $25 .. and results in 15 minutes. 

https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: real chili 83 on November 24, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
I think .. this is relatively impressive. 

All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing.  $25 .. and results in 15 minutes. 

https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody

Most insurances will cover it for free.  15 min is impressive, though.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 24, 2020, 09:43:20 AM
I think .. this is relatively impressive. 

All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing.  $25 .. and results in 15 minutes. 

https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody

Wow really? If that gets picked up around the other associated stores they own (marianos) it could be a big tool in getting the world back to normal in the Midwest and having a vaccine roll out that focuses on people without antibodies first.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: JWags85 on November 24, 2020, 10:41:53 AM
I think .. this is relatively impressive. 

All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing.  $25 .. and results in 15 minutes. 

https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody

FWIW, this is the test I mentioned in the Close to Home thread that returned that my GF was still “COVID positive”. It’s very good for the antibodies, but in terms of antigen, take with a grain of salt and don’t expect questions to be readily answered by the technician
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUfan12 on November 24, 2020, 12:03:29 PM
I went and got a rapid test at UWM yesterday and it couldn't have been easier. The only thing is the waiting... the seating is spaced, but you're still in a ballroom with a bunch of people. Thankfully it was nice enough to go outside on the balcony.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Sir Lawrence on November 24, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
I went and got a rapid test at UWM yesterday and it couldn't have been easier. The only thing is the waiting... the seating is spaced, but you're still in a ballroom with a bunch of people. Thankfully it was nice enough to go outside on the balcony.

I went there as well, and saw zero reason to wait.  The results are emailed.  What's the point of waiting in that (admittedly large) ballroom for results, when the result is emailed?  All it took for me to walk straight out, down the steps and out the door was a young gal hacking into her mask.  But it was a very easy and efficient process.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUfan12 on November 24, 2020, 08:09:27 PM
I went there as well, and saw zero reason to wait.  The results are emailed.  What's the point of waiting in that (admittedly large) ballroom for results, when the result is emailed?  All it took for me to walk straight out, down the steps and out the door was a young gal hacking into her mask.  But it was a very easy and efficient process.

It's the lack of accuracy. If you're there, they would then administer a PCR test if you test positive, or are symptomatic and test negative.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Sir Lawrence on November 24, 2020, 09:49:54 PM
It's the lack of accuracy. If you're there, they would then administer a PCR test if you test positive, or are symptomatic and test negative.

Ah.  Makes sense. Thx.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 25, 2020, 04:26:52 PM
Damn those cute little mink!

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Denmark-finds-covid-strain-that-might-hamper-15701598.php

They might still get the last laugh: "Culled mink rise from the dead to Denmark's horror"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/25/culled-mink-rise-from-the-dead-denmark-coronavirus
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 25, 2020, 04:40:33 PM
Looks like the AstraZeneca vaccine might be a little further off than we realized, due to the dosing mistake discussed earlier, but also some spotty disclosure practices and other 'irregularities' discovered by regulators.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/business/coronavirus-vaccine-astrazeneca-oxford.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

But since unveiling the preliminary results, AstraZeneca has acknowledged a key mistake in the vaccine dosage received by some study participants, adding to questions about whether the vaccine’s apparently spectacular efficacy will hold up under additional testing.

Scientists and industry experts said the error and a series of other irregularities and omissions in the way AstraZeneca initially disclosed the data have eroded their confidence in the reliability of the results.

Officials in the United States have noted that the results were not clear. The head of the flagship federal vaccine initiative suggested that the vaccine’s most promising results may not have reflected data from older people.

The upshot, the experts said, is that the odds of regulators in the United States and elsewhere quickly authorizing the emergency use of the AstraZeneca vaccine are declining, an unexpected setback in the global campaign to corral the devastating pandemic.


--------------

Good thing the Pfizer/Biontech and Moderna vaccines seem to be very close....

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 26, 2020, 02:36:58 PM
Some pretty strong side effects from vaccine.

https://crooksandliars.com/2020/11/doctors-urge-cdc-admit-side-effects
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 26, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Some pretty strong side effects from vaccine.

https://crooksandliars.com/2020/11/doctors-urge-cdc-admit-side-effects

They absolutely need to be upfront and honest about the side effects. Some people may choose they don't want to vaccinate, but at least they were honest, and gave the person a choice.

If they aren't honest, word will get out about the severity of side effects, and a lot of people will feel like they were lied to and risks were hidden. Feeling like you were lied to will fuel conspiracy theories, and could lead to A LOT of people forgoing a vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 26, 2020, 03:21:43 PM
They absolutely need to be upfront and honest about the side effects. Some people may choose they don't want to vaccinate, but at least they were honest, and gave the person a choice.

If they aren't honest, word will get out about the severity of side effects, and a lot of people will feel like they were lied to and risks were hidden. Feeling like you were lied to will fuel conspiracy theories, and could lead to A LOT of people forgoing a vaccine.

Exactly. Well said.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on November 26, 2020, 03:30:53 PM
They absolutely need to be upfront and honest about the side effects. Some people may choose they don't want to vaccinate, but at least they were honest, and gave the person a choice.

If they aren't honest, word will get out about the severity of side effects, and a lot of people will feel like they were lied to and risks were hidden. Feeling like you were lied to will fuel conspiracy theories, and could lead to A LOT of people forgoing a vaccine.

Honesty and transparency with mucho dinero on the line?? Ya. Right.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 26, 2020, 04:02:50 PM
Some pretty strong side effects from vaccine.

https://crooksandliars.com/2020/11/doctors-urge-cdc-admit-side-effects


The press releases from the companies certainly did not make the side effects sound that distressing. I can’t ever remember feeling bad enough to take a day off work after a vaccination. Granted, it sounds far less troublesome than Covid does, but people need to hear what they should expect.

If it really is that bad and they don’t do a better job of publicizing it, I fear two consequences: (1) people will not come back for their second dose, as indicated in the article; and (2) people who are further down the queue might not even come in for their first dose. Obviously, both of those things would be problematic.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 26, 2020, 04:24:05 PM

The press releases from the companies certainly did not make the side effects sound that distressing. I can’t ever remember feeling bad enough to take a day off work after a vaccination. Granted, it sounds far less troublesome than Covid does, but people need to hear what they should expect.

If it really is that bad and they don’t do a better job of publicizing it, I fear two consequences: (1) people will not come back for their second dose, as indicated in the article; and (2) people who are further down the queue might not even come in for their first dose. Obviously, both of those things would be problematic.

I think there will be a lot more trust in the future when the government talks about Covid and the vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 26, 2020, 09:37:11 PM
The 260K dead Americans ... the hundreds of thousands of permanently closed businesses ... the millions upon millions of unemployed ... the emperor doesn't care about any of those.

Here is what he cares about:

“Don’t let Joe Biden take credit for the vaccine. Don’t let him take credit for the vaccines, because the vaccines were me."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 27, 2020, 05:07:21 AM
Fact doe, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 27, 2020, 05:56:06 AM
The 260K dead Americans ... the hundreds of thousands of permanently closed businesses ... the millions upon millions of unemployed ... the emperor doesn't care about any of those.

Here is what he cares about:

“Don’t let Joe Biden take credit for the vaccine. Don’t let him take credit for the vaccines, because the vaccines were me."

Give Diaper Don a break.  Did you see that desk?  Tiny hands, tiny desk
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 27, 2020, 08:03:59 AM
Fact doe, hey?

Sure. As long as your emperor takes "credit" for all the deaths, lost jobs and closed businesses, too.

Hey.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on November 27, 2020, 08:08:11 AM
If he wants credit for something he didn't actively lead, ok.   Thanks for doing the bare minimum and staying out of the way of the scientists.   Should have listened to more of them.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on November 27, 2020, 08:17:57 AM
Obviously, Obama gets 100% of the credit for the stock market continuing to rise these last 4 years ... even if it didn't rise quite as high, percentage-wise, as it did during his 8 years in office.

"Don’t let Don Trump take credit for the stock market. Don’t let him take credit for the stock market, because the stock market was me."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 27, 2020, 11:10:20 AM
I'm really worried about the vaccine roll-out. The logistics for who to prioritize, and how to deliver the vaccine to those groups has been left up to the States, and it is a monumental task. As of right now, sufficient funds to do this hasn't been provided to them, nor has suitable resources to implement and execute a vaccination process as difficult as this will be.

With limited vaccines, and such a dire situation, this needs to have all the leg work and planning already done, with supplies, and a delivery apparatus at the local level already established and waiting. I fear we are far from that, particularly in rural, and poor areas hard hit by this virus.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 27, 2020, 11:29:29 AM
Give Diaper Don a break.  Did you see that desk?  Tiny hands, tiny desk

I’m guessing he will be on NPR for one of their Tiny Desk concerts soon. Don’t know if he will be able to wrap those tiny fingers all of the way around the guitar neck, though.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 27, 2020, 01:09:21 PM
Ahem...the past few posts have not been productive...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on November 27, 2020, 01:41:21 PM
Ahem...the past few posts have not been productive...

Scoop is supposed to be productive?

Who knew?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on November 27, 2020, 05:17:55 PM
Scoop is supposed to be productive?

Who knew?

(https://media.tenor.com/images/9ec1b10a43e9bae7b277527a1006f468/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 30, 2020, 10:27:39 AM
You are saying you don't trust the antibodies developed through the virus.   Is it the strength or the duration that concerns you?

Tower I saw this today and thought it could be helpful for you. 

https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1333445089243373569?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1333445089243373569?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Johnny B on November 30, 2020, 11:06:48 AM
Is it crazy to think there may not be full capacity crowds allowed next season? Alot of people arent getting the vaccine no matter what.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 30, 2020, 11:19:23 AM
It’s nuts to look at this timeline and see the moderna vaccine was designed in mid-Jan with the NIH and in testing already in March.  Just unbelievable to think of the speed with this new technology. 

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 30, 2020, 01:46:23 PM
It’s nuts to look at this timeline and see the moderna vaccine was designed in mid-Jan with the NIH and in testing already in March.  Just unbelievable to think of the speed with this new technology. 

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21)


Agreed. Part of the credit goes to the Trump Administration for implementing OWS (the one truly beneficial thing he has done during the pandemic), but we are also fortunate that companies have developed mRNA technology, which allows for more rapid development of vaccines without the inherent risks of actually injecting live or attenuated viruses into people.

#keepsciencing
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on November 30, 2020, 02:11:22 PM

Agreed. Part of the credit goes to the Trump Administration for implementing OWS (the one truly beneficial thing he has done during the pandemic), but we are also fortunate that companies have developed mRNA technology, which allows for more rapid development of vaccines without the inherent risks of actually injecting live or attenuated viruses into people.

#keepsciencing

1 downside to the new technology is the unknown long-term risk
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 30, 2020, 03:46:39 PM
1 downside to the new technology is the unknown long-term risk


Agreed. In theory, there are reasons to believe long-term effects will be less common and severe than with viral vaccines, but in practice we never know for sure until it is tried.

Fortunately, by the time most of us get access to the vaccine (likely May or June if you are <65 and otherwise relatively healthy), it will have been nearly a year since participants got the vaccine in the Phase 2 studies. While that doesn't eliminate the possibility that there could be side effects that take many months or years to develop, it still tells us about the vast majority of likely side effects.

Not perfect, but still pretty good in the midst of a pandemic....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on November 30, 2020, 04:07:57 PM
It’s nuts to look at this timeline and see the moderna vaccine was designed in mid-Jan with the NIH and in testing already in March.  Just unbelievable to think of the speed with this new technology. 

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21)

There is a lot more to this than just the timeline reported here.

What is key is that back under Bush, he recognized the need to prepare for a pandemic, particularly in technology for rapid vaccine development, which he funded. That led to some of the first uses of new vaccine technology in 2003 for SARS. At that time, they were able to go from sequence information to a testable vaccine in 20-months (technology very crude still). By that time, the SARS virus was gone. But those vaccines have been tested and optimized in animal studies for the past 17 years.

Obama took Bush's mantle and expanded investment in new vaccine technology, particularly pushing forward mRNA based approaches which were proving successful in animal studies, and had the capacity to be rolled out in extremely fast timescales ($25M investment to drive Moderna's research into mRNA technology). That investment is what built the infrastructure that the current vaccines are built off of.

You also have massive investments by the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) (really emerged from Bush's focus on protecting the US from Pandemic's and Biowarfare), focusing on this technology.

So technically we went from recognizing this to a vaccine in roughly 12-months, but the ground work, technology development, testing and optimization against SARS has been going on for 17-years. In January, everything was already in place and ready to get this done, all that really needed to be done was get the DNA sequence, and get out of the way of science.

Side note. The importance of a president who likes to read. Much of this was spurred by George Bush reading an advanced copy of "The Great Influenza" by John M. Barry during a vacation, and then him reading more on vaccine technology and how out of date it was. In some regards, having a president who loved to read is now saving lives.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on November 30, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
forgetful - you are right that Bush, Obama and many diligent scientists deserve the lion’s share of credit for getting it to the point where Moderna, Pfizer/Biontech and others can even dream of an mRNA vaccine.

Kudos to those who laid the groundwork for making this even remotely possible.

Hopefully that will not get lost in a diatribe started by by one man trying to take credit for the entire thing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on November 30, 2020, 08:21:27 PM
Very interesting background explanation, thank you.
I read that book too. Plus American Experience did an episode on it some years ago.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 03, 2020, 07:44:37 AM
In a Massachusetts poll this week, 38 percent of respondents said they were unlikely or very unlikely to get a vaccine.

A Gallup poll last month showed 42 percent of Americans were unwilling to take a COVID-19 vaccine, even if it were FDA-approved and free.

Other polls have showed similar reluctance nationally and at the state level, although the numbers have improved since news of successful vaccine trials broke in the past month.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 08:10:47 AM
In a Massachusetts poll this week, 38 percent of respondents said they were unlikely or very unlikely to get a vaccine.

A Gallup poll last month showed 42 percent of Americans were unwilling to take a COVID-19 vaccine, even if it were FDA-approved and free.

Other polls have showed similar reluctance nationally and at the state level, although the numbers have improved since news of successful vaccine trials broke in the past month.

People say one thing and will do another when they get a taste of normality.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 03, 2020, 08:18:09 AM
People say one thing and will do another when they get a taste of normality.

Here's hoping. Also encouraging that the numbers who say no have been decreasing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 03, 2020, 08:21:12 AM
I had a routine doctor's appointment yesterday.
My doctor said they would offer COVID vaccines for the general public starting April because he said they're a part of Yale Health System and Yale Health will be receiving vaccines.  He said he expects the vaccines will be available sooner to the public because "there are too many stupid people who won't take the vaccine, so there will be vaccines available to the public sooner."
He also said he preferred the Moderna vaccine based on the temperature storage issue.
 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 08:44:40 AM
I had a routine doctor's appointment yesterday.
My doctor said they would offer COVID vaccines for the general public starting April because he said they're a part of Yale Health System and Yale Health will be receiving vaccines.  He said he expects the vaccines will be available sooner to the public because "there are too many stupid people who won't take the vaccine, so there will be vaccines available to the public sooner."
He also said he preferred the Moderna vaccine based on the temperature storage issue.

Personally, I will take whichever I can get first.  Having said that, Moderna is not my favorite company.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 03, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Personally, I will take whichever I can get first.  Having said that, Moderna is not my favorite company.

Moderna: Because Moderna has never brought a product to market before? Or that it's based on mRNA technology and the first ever mRNA therapy was approved in 2019?

I'm not that confident that production + logistics is going to go as smoothly as people are expecting.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 09:23:53 AM
Moderna: Because Moderna has never brought a product to market before? Or that it's based on mRNA technology and the first ever mRNA therapy was approved in 2019?

I'm not that confident that production + logistics is going to go as smoothly as people are expecting.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e58fdf168818bf78e6cabaab04503b3b/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 03, 2020, 09:47:27 AM
Personally, I will take whichever I can get first.  Having said that, Moderna is not my favorite company.

Moderna: Because Moderna has never brought a product to market before? Or that it's based on mRNA technology and the first ever mRNA therapy was approved in 2019?

I'm not that confident that production + logistics is going to go as smoothly as people are expecting.

I used to also not be a big fan of Moderna. Seemed sketchy, and had concerns about the fact that they have never brought a product to market. Having talked to colleagues, in the know, I have much more faith in them in terms of the vaccine. Would be very happy to get it.

But, I have concerns about production and logistics too. Could limit the availability of the Moderna vaccine.

Overall though, I have major concerns regarding the vaccine roll-outs. States still haven't been provided the finances and resources to be able to execute any plans.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 03, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Once we all start getting vacines,  are we still gonna have to wear masks?  Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask.  Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?

Part sarcasm but part serious question.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 03, 2020, 09:57:16 AM
Once we all start getting vacines,  are we still gonna have to wear masks?  Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask.  Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?

Part sarcasm but part serious question.

Someone stated on CNN last night that there's talks of an Vaccination ID that people will receive. I would guess that would cover you to not wear a mask
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU11W on December 03, 2020, 09:59:59 AM
Maybe we could get one for each vaccine we've received and then just pin them to our shirts like pieces of flair?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 03, 2020, 10:08:29 AM
Once we all start getting vacines,  are we still gonna have to wear masks?  Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask.  Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?

Part sarcasm but part serious question.

Quite simply. Yes.

We don't know if you can be a vector for disease spread still after vaccination. But you would be more likely to have a asymptomatic case. Which means, if you can still be a disease vector, you may be more likely to be a super spreader.

So masks are still absolutely necessary for those that get vaccinated, unless you only care about your self, and don't give a damn if you spread this to dozens of others.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 03, 2020, 10:08:45 AM
What real presidents who really care about real Americans do ...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/02/covid-vaccine-obama-will-take-doses-might-film-to-build-confidence.html

Former Presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton have said they will take a coronavirus vaccine once one is available and may film it to build confidence in the U.S. about vaccine safety.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 03, 2020, 10:09:58 AM
Maybe we could get one for each vaccine we've received and then just pin them to our shirts like pieces of flair?

Must.
Not.
Quote.
Office.
Space.
Here.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 10:14:15 AM
Someone stated on CNN last night that there's talks of an Vaccination ID that people will receive. I would guess that would cover you to not wear a mask

Microchip or gold star?

I kid of course.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 03, 2020, 11:06:06 AM
Once we all start getting vacines,  are we still gonna have to wear masks?  Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask.  Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?

Part sarcasm but part serious question.

You're usually the a-hole.     Seriously, though, I don't think anyone has that answer yet.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on December 03, 2020, 11:12:55 AM
Quite simply. Yes.

We don't know if you can be a vector for disease spread still after vaccination. But you would be more likely to have a asymptomatic case. Which means, if you can still be a disease vector, you may be more likely to be a super spreader.

So masks are still absolutely necessary for those that get vaccinated, unless you only care about your self, and don't give a damn if you spread this to dozens of others.

I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.

And I do hope they have a vaccine ID.  I think it would open things up more quickly.  For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 03, 2020, 11:14:01 AM
FWIW, I am still wearing a mask in public.    Common courtesy, really.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 03, 2020, 11:23:11 AM
I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.

And I do hope they have a vaccine ID.  I think it would open things up more quickly.  For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.

Agreed. As much as people would freak out about it being invasive it'd be good for the economy and a return to normalcy. Sports games, concerts, bars, restaurants, etc etc. I'd still wear a mask as a courtesy but would gladly waltz right into all my old favorite activities.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 03, 2020, 11:25:28 AM
I'm going to corner the market on fake vaccine IDs.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 03, 2020, 01:00:18 PM
Quite simply. Yes.

We don't know if you can be a vector for disease spread still after vaccination. But you would be more likely to have a asymptomatic case. Which means, if you can still be a disease vector, you may be more likely to be a super spreader.

So masks are still absolutely necessary for those that get vaccinated, unless you only care about your self, and don't give a damn if you spread this to dozens of others.

So the mask-related value projecting pissing match of 2021 is going to be about threading the needle between "the vaccine has been available long enough that anyone that wanted one has gotten one so you can take off your masks" and "the immunity of the first people to get vaccines might be wearing off so put your masks back on"? Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUfan12 on December 03, 2020, 01:10:24 PM
So the mask-related value projecting pissing match of 2021 is going to be about threading the needle between "the vaccine has been available long enough that anyone that wanted one has gotten one so you can take off your masks" and "the immunity of the first people to get vaccines might be wearing off so put your masks back on"? Looking forward to it.

We might as well sew 'em to our faces, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 03, 2020, 01:28:13 PM
In our current Presidential leadership vacuum, three former Presidents (Bush, Clinton and Obama) consider getting vaccinated on camera to bolster public confidence in the vaccines.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/12/03/covid-vaccine-obama-bush-clinton-said-theyll-take-publicly/3806592001/

Sure would be nice if the current occupant did more than just taking credit for OWS....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 03, 2020, 02:14:15 PM
This is really cool .. shows a guess where you are in line for the vaccine:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/03/opinion/covid-19-vaccine-timeline.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 03, 2020, 02:25:30 PM
This is really cool .. shows a guess where you are in line for the vaccine:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/03/opinion/covid-19-vaccine-timeline.html

Anybody know if having a Left Bundle Branch Block would be considered a "covid related health risk" or "heart disease?"  If so I am a little over 25% back in the line.  If not (and I don't think it would be) I am the very last person in line in this exercise.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 02:29:06 PM
Anybody know if having a Left Bundle Branch Block would be considered a "covid related health risk" or "heart disease?"  If so I am a little over 25% back in the line.  If not (and I don't think it would be) I am the very last person in line in this exercise.

yes it is a risk
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on December 03, 2020, 02:34:16 PM

So, on the obesity thing, are they going to have scales at the vaccination sites?  Because I can always wear loose clothing and put rocks in my pockets.

Honestly, I can't help but be a little pissed that my cousin who hasn't left the couch or eaten a vegetable in 30 years is going get prioritized over those of us who made an effort to take care of ourselves.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BM1090 on December 03, 2020, 02:39:41 PM
My future Mother-in-law is a nurse at Elmbrook Hospital in Brookfield WI and she was notified that they would be getting shipments of the vaccine on the 11th. She also works as a nurse at the VA in Milwaukee and they will receive shipments on the 20th. These are for front-line workers.

Probably a dumb question, but how are they scheduled to get the vaccine before it is approved in the United States? Does this mean approval is imminent in the coming days?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 03, 2020, 02:43:56 PM
Does anybody else have a dual citizenship and is monitoring EU approval?

I'm wondering if it would make more sense to head overseas for a bit and skip my place in line after I just saw my theoretical place in line using the link Topper posted.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 03, 2020, 03:01:44 PM
So, on the obesity thing, are they going to have scales at the vaccination sites?  Because I can always wear loose clothing and put rocks in my pockets.

Honestly, I can't help but be a little pissed that my cousin who hasn't left the couch or eaten a vegetable in 30 years is going get prioritized over those of us who made an effort to take care of ourselves.

Based on that tool, I as an educator, who is required to teach in person.

And as a COVID researcher (considered essential by my University), and required to run a research group in person, and train researchers in person.

Will be behind those suffering from "obesity".
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 03, 2020, 03:10:00 PM

Probably a dumb question, but how are they scheduled to get the vaccine before it is approved in the United States? Does this mean approval is imminent in the coming days?


The timelines are all based on the assumption that it gets approved this week.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 03, 2020, 04:08:50 PM
I’m number 40. My only risk factor is being over 65.
A guy called WGN radio today to say that his mother, who lives in a nursing facility, has already been scheduled for her first shot at the end of December.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 03, 2020, 04:25:05 PM
I'm number 4 out of 100.

I won't get the moderna vaccine.

I MIGHT get another version.

I've been leaning toward not getting one at all.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 03, 2020, 04:48:19 PM
I'm gonna toggle the Covid health-risk button. 

I'll wear two sweatshirts and a bulky Arby's jacket and say I'm obese. 

How are they gonna check?   Probably a health privacy violation to ask what the condition is anyhow.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 04:59:04 PM
I'm gonna toggle the Covid health-risk button. 

I'll wear two sweatshirts and a bulky Arby's jacket and say I'm obese. 

How are they gonna check?   Probably a health privacy violation to ask what the condition is anyhow.

You will probably have to get approval from a doc if you want to skip anywhere in the line.... just guessing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 03, 2020, 05:20:34 PM
I'm number 4 out of 100.

I won't get the moderna vaccine.

I MIGHT get another version.

I've been leaning toward not getting one at all.

I certainly lean your way politically, but I'm hopeful you are not making your decisions based on politics. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: cheebs09 on December 03, 2020, 05:26:34 PM
I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.

And I do hope they have a vaccine ID.  I think it would open things up more quickly.  For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.

Won’t the tracker Gates puts in the vaccine cover that for us?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 03, 2020, 05:46:44 PM
I certainly lean your way politically, but I'm hopeful you are not making your decisions based on politics.

It isn't.

It's based on the unknown of long term safety monitoring. Especially for new tech like modernas
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on December 03, 2020, 05:49:26 PM
time to gain about 100 lbs
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 03, 2020, 05:54:51 PM
Y'all should have become police officers and firefighters when you had the chance. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 03, 2020, 05:59:39 PM
I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.

And I do hope they have a vaccine ID.  I think it would open things up more quickly.  For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.






Maybe wear da scarlet letter, aina?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 03, 2020, 06:08:36 PM
I’m 95th in line.

As I expected, I’ll probably get my first shot in late spring...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 03, 2020, 06:22:05 PM
You will probably have to get approval from a doc if you want to skip anywhere in the line.... just guessing.

I very much doubt that.  Same thing with saying you are a teacher.  There'll be a box to check on the form, and in you go.  Zero chance there'll be folks even asking for documents, let alone verifying they are true.

There will be elevendy million people showing up without a "note from their doctor."   -- I have asthma, give me the shot now.  No way they turn people away.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 03, 2020, 06:34:17 PM
I’m 95th in line.

As I expected, I’ll probably get my first shot in late spring...

Same here.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BM1090 on December 03, 2020, 06:38:04 PM
I'm 53rd in line. Age 30. Non-essential. No risk factors. Surprised I'm not further back.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 03, 2020, 07:10:47 PM
It isn't.

It's based on the unknown of long term safety monitoring. Especially for new tech like modernas

https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 03, 2020, 07:15:48 PM
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21)

Still little comfort for me.

But I appreciate the info.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 04, 2020, 12:35:07 AM
I’m 95th in line.

As I expected, I’ll probably get my first shot in late spring...


Late spring!  Aren't you the optimist!  People are going crazy over these calculators and rumors in healthcare circles that "it's coming", but the FDA isn't meeting until Dec 10 to talk about Pfizer, and Dec 17 to talk about Moderna.  Nothing happens before those meetings.

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Keithtisbarf on December 04, 2020, 01:55:39 AM
Won’t the tracker Gates puts in the vaccine cover that for us?

If Gates wants to track my boring life inject me!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 04, 2020, 05:49:11 AM

Late spring!  Aren't you the optimist!  People are going crazy over these calculators and rumors in healthcare circles that "it's coming", but the FDA isn't meeting until Dec 10 to talk about Pfizer, and Dec 17 to talk about Moderna.  Nothing happens before those meetings.

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines

That isn’t entirely true.  I am almost positive they started distributing the vaccine. If that’s the case shots for h/c workers can behind upon approval.

Yesterday though Pfizer lowered their expectation for number of doses in 2020 due to insufficient raw material. My bet is production and individual acceptance of the vaccine quickly become the biggest bottlenecks. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 04, 2020, 06:41:42 AM
I very much doubt that.  Same thing with saying you are a teacher.  There'll be a box to check on the form, and in you go.  Zero chance there'll be folks even asking for documents, let alone verifying they are true.

There will be elevendy million people showing up without a "note from their doctor."   -- I have asthma, give me the shot now.  No way they turn people away.

Personally, I hope there is more organization than, 'just show up'.  Not sure why they can't send people a post card with their date and place for their shot.  Especially FRs, teachers, and etc.  Occupation is listed on plenty of government forms.  But I guess who knows.

Here's to hoping I guess!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 04, 2020, 07:10:46 AM
Our department does not yet have any information about scheduling.   We are hoping to have some clarity by the end of the year.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 04, 2020, 08:05:43 AM
I was thankful to see Fauci blast the UK for their early vaccine approval. He's my chosen bellwether for whether things are above-board these past few months, and it would have cost him nothing to say nothing about the UK not following any real approvals process. Fauci coming out guns firing made me doubly sure that I picked a winning horse. If he thinks that while we're moving so fast to get a vaccine out that we're cutting too many corners? He'll say so.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2020, 08:10:08 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 04, 2020, 08:11:37 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontifications, hey?

No, not really.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 04, 2020, 08:44:32 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?

Wait you just admitted that trump's been wrong about something?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 04, 2020, 10:20:07 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?

Early on, many were wrong. It's not an excuse for Fauci, and it's bad that it happened.

Since April, as the experts learned what really made the coronavirus tick, Fauci and other top epidemiologists have been right about most things. Meanwhile, your emperor simply declared victory over COVID-19, didn't even follow his own guidelines, pretended that "it affects virtually nobody," held deadly super-spreader events, and lied non-stop for months and months.

But nice try.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on December 04, 2020, 10:26:36 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?

I agree! When he said 14 cases soon to be zero! Or pack the pews for Easter, or,
Should I continue and make you look even more foolish?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 04, 2020, 11:25:11 AM
I agree! When he said 14 cases soon to be zero! Or pack the pews for Easter, or,
Should I continue and make you look even more foolish?

It’s an easy task that many here have done repeatedly.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 04, 2020, 01:19:22 PM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?
Like Trump, you are so wrong about so much that I have to believe it is intentional.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 04, 2020, 02:11:24 PM
Like Trump, you are so wrong about so much that I have to believe it is intentional.

Hanlon's razor
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 05, 2020, 09:22:04 AM
Another article that deals with vaccine driven immunity vs natural.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/covid-natural-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/covid-natural-immunity.html)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2020, 12:05:58 PM
How worried are people here about vaccine distribution? I don't anticipate a big problem with phase one, but think there will be serious issues going forward from there.

The prez has abdicated any responsibility. States will be expected to carry out phase 2 and beyond. States aren't getting money. States aren't getting any direction. I think this is an intentional plan so that when problems arise, it will all be put on Biden - who as someone who holds no office as all now - is doing way, way more than our so-called leader to deal with Covid.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 05, 2020, 12:10:43 PM
There will be problems until January 20.   Then there will be a all hands on deck effort to bring some order.   Sorted out by St Patrick's day.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 05, 2020, 01:09:32 PM
I have a friend with a winter hone in The Villages in Florida, he often shares links from their local news site ( the most ridiculous stuff goes on there). I saw a letter to the editor this morning that actually publicly said that the residents there should get priority over the rest of the state because they supported DeSantis  and Trump in a big way. So problem solved.
If you’re ever really bored, their news is a hoot. They are having a Trump golf cart rally today, for some completely unexplainable reason, as nobody is attacking Florida’s vote, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2020, 06:17:01 PM
I have a friend with a winter hone in The Villages in Florida, he often shares links from their local news site ( the most ridiculous stuff goes on there). I saw a letter to the editor this morning that actually publicly said that the residents there should get priority over the rest of the state because they supported DeSantis  and Trump in a big way. So problem solved.
If you’re ever really bored, their news is a hoot. They are having a Trump golf cart rally today, for some completely unexplainable reason, as nobody is attacking Florida’s vote, as far as I know.

I've got a friend whose mother lived there until she died 3 months ago. She has told me some of the crazy stuff down there. She's debating if it is worth being around these people for several weeks a year as she decides whether to keep the condo or sell. She is a lifelong republican who detest the mad king.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 05, 2020, 08:23:06 PM
How worried are people here about vaccine distribution? I don't anticipate a big problem with phase one, but think there will be serious issues going forward from there.

The prez has abdicated any responsibility. States will be expected to carry out phase 2 and beyond. States aren't getting money. States aren't getting any direction. I think this is an intentional plan so that when problems arise, it will all be put on Biden - who as someone who holds no office as all now - is doing way, way more than our so-called leader to deal with Covid.

I'm worried about both supply chain issues (Pfizer is already decreasing estimates on vaccine due to reagent shortages), and distribution.

States haven't been provided the resources and money to actually execute this, and the WH has abdicated all the difficult aspects of distribution to the states.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 05, 2020, 08:29:14 PM
I'm worried about both supply chain issues (Pfizer is already decreasing estimates on vaccine due to reagent shortages), and distribution.

States haven't been provided the resources and money to actually execute this, and the WH has abdicated all the difficult aspects of distribution to the states.


Yep. I worry that states will be on their own until late January. And they have neither the resources nor expertise to pull this off in the publicized timeframes.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 06, 2020, 08:27:46 AM
I'm optimistic about distribution.   There's a lot of federal money sloshing around. 

It's an expectations game though.   If your expectation is 350m US citizens will get 1-2 doses in 90 days, you will be unhappy.

Will it go as fast as people want?  No.  Will there be chaotic days and long lines?  Probably.  Will sites, states, and regions run out?  Sure.

If you expect this to take 6-12 months and meet small, medium, and large issues along the way, it'll be the most successful public health episode in history.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 06, 2020, 08:47:20 AM
I love it when people take pragmatic, big picture views.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 06, 2020, 09:36:05 AM
I am sure there will be bottlenecks and glitches. Getting this done at all will be a huge accomplishment.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 06, 2020, 11:30:42 AM
I'm optimistic about distribution.   There's a lot of federal money sloshing around. 

It's an expectations game though.   If your expectation is 350m US citizens will get 1-2 doses in 90 days, you will be unhappy.

Will it go as fast as people want?  No.  Will there be chaotic days and long lines?  Probably.  Will sites, states, and regions run out?  Sure.

If you expect this to take 6-12 months and meet small, medium, and large issues along the way, it'll be the most successful public health episode in history.

The problem is all that federal money has been focused on how to get this to the states. That is actually the easy part. The hard part is the logistics of local delivery and execution. As far as I understand that, the "Operation Warp Speed" plan is to just leave that up to the States to figure out on their own, and the States have not been provided the finances and logistical support needed to execute.

Not a guarantee of a disaster, but if you were trying to cause one, that is a good way to do it.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 06, 2020, 01:51:32 PM
The problem is all that federal money has been focused on how to get this to the states. That is actually the easy part. The hard part is the logistics of local delivery and execution. As far as I understand that, the "Operation Warp Speed" plan is to just leave that up to the States to figure out on their own, and the States have not been provided the finances and logistical support needed to execute.

Not a guarantee of a disaster, but if you were trying to cause one, that is a good way to do it.


Correct. The article below does a nice job of explaining the gap in OWS that you highlighted above, and highlighting the issues state officials are grappling with.

https://www.propublica.org/article/most-states-arent-ready-to-distribute-the-leading-covid-19-vaccine

The government’s vaccine program, Operation Warp Speed, has projected optimism about its readiness to distribute the vaccine. On Monday, Gen. Gustave Perna told NPR, “I think we’re in a good place,” saying that “with the right planning, we can execute it with zero loss of vaccine.” But the federal program is only going to be responsible for delivering vaccines to the states, which must then figure out on their own how to get the shots to the people who need them most. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention asked each state to turn in distribution plans on Nov. 2, imagining a scenario in which a vaccine with Pfizer’s specifications came first.

ProPublica obtained full preliminary plans for 47 states (Hawaii, Pennsylvania and Minnesota say they’re still working on theirs). Many struggled with how to handle a Pfizer-like vaccine. Washington state’s Health Department does not have its own warehouse that can store the Pfizer vaccine at a cold enough temperature. Arizona expects the Pfizer vaccine cannot be handled by the state’s rural communities and tribal lands. North Dakota and Oregon aren’t sure how to take care of migrant workers. Kansas’ plan appears to mistakenly assume shipments will be far smaller than 1,000 doses. Georgia’s Public Health Department is relying on local districts and counties to work out their own details.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 06, 2020, 02:23:41 PM
Kansas’ plan appears to mistakenly assume shipments will be far smaller than 1,000 doses. [/u].

I don't know anything about anything, but to anyone who has like, seen a truck on the highway, or received a shot from a syringe, this sounds sounds criminally stupid to me.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 06, 2020, 02:39:33 PM
I don't know anything about anything, but to anyone who has like, seen a truck on the highway, or received a shot from a syringe, this sounds sounds criminally stupid to me.


My daughter lived in Kansas for a year. She has always struggled with self-confidence, but told me she felt really smart there....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 06, 2020, 03:27:40 PM
JB takes a lot of flack here in Illinois, but it seems to me that they laid out a solid plan this week ( unlike what was implied by the nurse quoted in the article, which was written a month ago), involving regional hospitals for storage, and partnering with CVS and Walgreens to go to care facilities, although we are only getting 1/4 of the original estimate. The city gets a separate allocation directly from the CDC.
It does appear that now some will be shipped in smaller amounts.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on December 06, 2020, 08:48:51 PM
I live in Florida. We’ve already beaten the virus according to DeathSantis, so no real need for plans for distribution of the vaccine. Winning!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 07, 2020, 07:33:41 AM
From the NYT:

Essential workers are expected to be among the first in line to receive vaccinations as they become available in the weeks and months ahead. But not all are guaranteed to take them. In New York City, the fire department is set to be among the first to receive the Pfizer vaccine that recently passed clinical trials and is now awaiting F.D.A. approval.
   
But the department announced last week that it would not require firefighters to take the vaccine, and a survey released over the weekend conducted for the firefighters’ union found that more than half of the union’s members didn’t plan to take the vaccine when it became available to them.

This dovetails with the results of an Axios-Ipsos poll released late last month, showing that only about half of Americans were willing to take the first-generation vaccine immediately upon arrival, while the number jumped to 64 percent for a vaccine that had been around for a few months — and to 70 percent for a vaccine that had “been proven safe by public health officials.”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
From the NYT:

Essential workers are expected to be among the first in line to receive vaccinations as they become available in the weeks and months ahead. But not all are guaranteed to take them. In New York City, the fire department is set to be among the first to receive the Pfizer vaccine that recently passed clinical trials and is now awaiting F.D.A. approval.
   
But the department announced last week that it would not require firefighters to take the vaccine, and a survey released over the weekend conducted for the firefighters’ union found that more than half of the union’s members didn’t plan to take the vaccine when it became available to them.

This dovetails with the results of an Axios-Ipsos poll released late last month, showing that only about half of Americans were willing to take the first-generation vaccine immediately upon arrival, while the number jumped to 64 percent for a vaccine that had been around for a fewg months — and to 70 percent for a vaccine that had “been proven safe by public health officials.”

For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 07, 2020, 09:34:22 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”

That isn't true
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 07, 2020, 09:37:43 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”


To be accurate, Biden said all along that he trusted the scientists, but not Trump.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/us/politics/biden-trump-coronavirus-vaccine.html

With deaths from the coronavirus nearing 200,000 in the United States, Joseph R. Biden Jr. on Wednesday assailed President Trump for playing politics with a potential coronavirus vaccine, saying he did not trust Mr. Trump to determine when a vaccine was ready for Americans.

Let me be clear: I trust vaccines,” Mr. Biden said. “I trust scientists. But I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either.”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 07, 2020, 09:43:10 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!
False.

Geez, QAnonesque.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2020, 10:04:22 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”


LOL. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on December 07, 2020, 10:21:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”
What right-wing crackpot website did you pull this little gem from?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 10:40:51 AM
https://www.thewrap.com/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/

Here’s just one. Lots more out there. I’ve seen and heard both Biden and Harris casting doubts pre election.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 07, 2020, 10:41:40 AM
He said he would trust the scientists. The fear was that a vaccine would be rushed out just to help Trump get re-elected, due to WH pressure. That did not happen.
I always said that when people like Dr. Fauci and, locally, Dr. Murphy said it was good to go, I would be fine with it. I have not heard anyone of my Dem friends say so far that they won’t get it.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 07, 2020, 10:44:49 AM
https://www.thewrap.com/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/

Here’s just one. Lots more out there. I’ve seen and heard both Biden and Harris casting doubts pre election.

Did you actually read that? It's quoted in the article:

“If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it, absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it,” Harris said.

Essentially Harris and Biden wanted to be clear that they weren't going to jump on the vaccine equivalent of Hydroxy. They were going to wait till it was properly studied and vetted by scientists.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 07, 2020, 10:48:23 AM
https://www.thewrap.com/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/

Here’s just one. Lots more out there. I’ve seen and heard both Biden and Harris casting doubts pre election.


Your own link contradicts your statement about not trusting the vaccine:

Asked at Wednesday’s vice-presidential debate whether she would take a vaccine approved by the Trump administration before or after the election, Harris said she’d be the “first in line” to take the vaccine if health experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci recommended it.

If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it, absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it,” Harris said.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2020, 10:50:56 AM
Guys, Lenny's is trying really hard.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 10:55:17 AM
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/22/biden-challenge-vaccine-messaging/

Here’s another. Biden, Harris, et al absolutely cast doubts on any vaccine developed under Trump’s watch. Of course (duh) they’ve walked back their knowingly false statements made during the campaign. But to say those statements had no consequences is purely partisan.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 07, 2020, 11:03:15 AM
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/22/biden-challenge-vaccine-messaging/

Here’s another. Biden, Harris, et al absolutely cast doubts on any vaccine developed under Trump’s watch. Of course (duh) they’ve walked back their knowingly false statements made during the campaign. But to say those statements had no consequences is purely partisan.

All these comments were in the background of Trump suggesting he would overrule the FDA requiring 2-months of safety data, and overrule the independent advisory boards requiring 2-months of safety data, to force approval before the election, at largely his discretion.

Harris and Biden, rightfully said, let the science guide us. You are right, there is partisan politics going on here, but that partisan politics is on the GOP reframing their statements as anti-vax.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2020, 11:04:32 AM
All these comments were in the background of Trump suggesting he would overrule the FDA requiring 2-months of safety data, and overrule the independent advisory boards requiring 2-months of safety data, to force approval before the election, at largely his discretion.

Harris and Biden, rightfully said, let the science guide us. You are right, there is partisan politics going on here, but that partisan politics is on the GOP reframing their statements as anti-vax.


Lenny's is trying SOOOOO hard!!!!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 07, 2020, 11:33:37 AM
I can tell you he is not going to find the statements that he made anywhere (at least attributed to the people he put forth). 

The medical/scientist crew that Biden is actively courting and bringing onto his staff would have lost their stuff if those statements were made.  Plus, everyone who wants this to end knows that the barrier is people taking the vaccine.  It's in all of our best interests that the President and the President-elect both remain active supporters of this.

We should all be afraid of the anti-vax/science campaign that is building steam.  That is a HUGE threat and its the next thing that foreign countries are fanning the flames of. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 07, 2020, 11:34:30 AM
Pretty sure Biden is going to join Clinton, Bush, and Obama and publicly get the vaccine, if Fauci says it safe.   Oh, poor Lenny.


Lenny, I have so much respect for you.    Please don't turn into one of those people who post links that say the opposite of what you claim thinking you are making a point.   A la, Chicos, Warriordad, PA2, Guru.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 07, 2020, 11:46:16 AM
Lenny's just doing some good-natured trolling.

At least I hope so, otherwise I'm a little worried about his reading comprehension.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 07, 2020, 11:48:21 AM
"I'm anti-vax because Kamala Harris told me to be" - The alt-right
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 07, 2020, 12:23:06 PM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”

I was just going to reply and realized there were already 15 other excellent replies already flushing this one down for good.
Moving on.............
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 07, 2020, 12:29:57 PM
"I'm anti-vax because Kamala Harris told me to be" - The alt-right

I was thinking the same thing. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 12:43:02 PM
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn’t take the “Trump Vaccine” what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a “Trump Vaccine”. No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 07, 2020, 12:54:13 PM
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn’t take the “Trump Vaccine” what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a “Trump Vaccine”. No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.

Lenny - You keep putting these items in quotes, but none of your support has anyone saying those words.  Where was it said and what is the context?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2020, 12:58:58 PM
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn’t take the “Trump Vaccine” what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a “Trump Vaccine”. No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.


Keep it up Lenny!!  Someday you'll get there!!!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 07, 2020, 01:20:35 PM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”

Oh Jesus...

 :o
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 07, 2020, 01:23:44 PM
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn’t take the “Trump Vaccine” what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a “Trump Vaccine”. No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.

I'm going to try to keep this simple.

The bolded would violate the FDA and independent advisory board requirement of 2-months of data. Pfizer/Moderna said they were going to follow the FDA and independent advisory board requirements. So there was no situation where Pfizer and Moderna would announce earlier with Fauci's approval.

But...

Trump tried to circumvent that to reach his "promised timeline," and called the FDA and independent advisory board's requirements a "political move" by the "deep-state" trying to hurt his re-election.

Biden and Harris said if Trump did so (e.g. Trump's vaccine), they wouldn't trust it, as they shouldn't because the safety profile wouldn't have been vetted yet.

This article provides context.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/519841-fda-asking-covid-19-vaccine-developers-for-safety-data-likely-pushing


Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 07, 2020, 01:43:13 PM
By the way, while we all wait to hear about where the bogeyman statements came from, this person is invited to capital hill to testify. 

 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/doctor-critical-vaccine-mandates-testify-senate-covid-treatments-n1250260 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/doctor-critical-vaccine-mandates-testify-senate-covid-treatments-n1250260)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: ZaLiN on December 07, 2020, 03:10:57 PM
Lenny, will it make you feel better if I say the vaccine was 100% developed while Trump was president?

Now, what exactly does that now change to our current situation? Does that make the vaccine more effective to you? Are you less likely to get it because the results were announced after the election?

Shut up, mask up
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 07, 2020, 03:12:08 PM
Pretty sure Biden is going to join Clinton, Bush, and Obama and publicly get the vaccine, if Fauci says it safe.   Oh, poor Lenny.


Lenny, I have so much respect for you.    Please don't turn into one of those people who post links that say the opposite of what you claim thinking you are making a point.   A la, Chicos, Warriordad, PA2, Guru.

1. To your 1st point, what do you think the over/under will be (in hours) until the right says that it's a hoax and they just got a placebo? I'd put the number at 1 and take the under.

2. I think almost to a man we respect Lenny on this board. A quality poster for a long time. But like all of us have done on more than one occasion, he made a dumb post and took flak for it. No harm / no foul.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 07, 2020, 03:27:30 PM

2. I think almost to a man we respect Lenny on this board. A quality poster for a long time. But like all of us have done on more than one occasion, he made a dumb post and took flak for it. No harm / no foul.

This. And I point out clarifications not to give flak, but on the honest belief that sometimes people simply misunderstand something said/done, or were misled.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
Great.  How incompetent.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/07/world/covid-19-coronavirus?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes#trump-administration-officials-passed-when-pfizer-offered-in-late-summer-to-sell-the-us-more-vaccine-doses
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 07, 2020, 03:53:23 PM
Great.  How incompetent.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/07/world/covid-19-coronavirus?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes#trump-administration-officials-passed-when-pfizer-offered-in-late-summer-to-sell-the-us-more-vaccine-doses

Classic.

All happening while patting themselves on the back.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 07, 2020, 04:18:51 PM

2. I think almost to a man we respect Lenny on this board. A quality poster for a long time. But like all of us have done on more than one occasion, he made a dumb post and took flak for it. No harm / no foul.



Agreed. Good quality poster who seems to have been misled on this issue. I value Lenny's contributions to Scoop, and hope he's here for a long time to come.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 07, 2020, 04:45:15 PM
Oh look, Dick Uihlein and his funded rag going full anti-vaxx.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/12/07/science-says-im-in-the-back-of-the-covid-vaccine-line-but-government-and-corporations-will-force-me-through-it/

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 07, 2020, 06:41:44 PM
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/22/biden-challenge-vaccine-messaging/

Here’s another. Biden, Harris, et al absolutely cast doubts on any vaccine developed under Trump’s watch. Of course (duh) they’ve walked back their knowingly false statements made during the campaign. But to say those statements had no consequences is purely partisan.
Providing links that actually disprove your point? Check
Doubling down after being shown that you are wrong? Check

You're acting like Chicos. Don't be a Chicos.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:16:57 PM
I'm going to try to keep this simple.

The bolded would violate the FDA and independent advisory board requirement of 2-months of data. Pfizer/Moderna said they were going to follow the FDA and independent advisory board requirements. So there was no situation where Pfizer and Moderna would announce earlier with Fauci's approval.

But...

Trump tried to circumvent that to reach his "promised timeline," and called the FDA and independent advisory board's requirements a "political move" by the "deep-state" trying to hurt his re-election.

Biden and Harris said if Trump did so (e.g. Trump's vaccine), they wouldn't trust it, as they shouldn't because the safety profile wouldn't have been vetted yet.

This article provides context.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/519841-fda-asking-covid-19-vaccine-developers-for-safety-data-likely-pushing

Forgetful

I very much respect your knowledge in the these matters, but (IMO) when Kamala Harris says, “If Donald Trump says take the vaccine, I ain’t takin’ it” (direct quote) she’s being disingenuous and undermining faith in a vaccine developed while Trump is president. She (and everybody else) knows that a vaccine can’t be approved without the drug companies, FDA, etc. putting their stamp of approval on it. It’s not like we’d get a vaccine based on Trump’s senseless ramblings (hydroxy, bleach, etc.). It’ll only be available when it’s proven safe and effective, regardless of who is President. Suggesting a scenario under which an unsafe, ineffective vaccine would be available because the Donald wanted it that way was (IMO) bullish!t. And she knew that. On all of this, I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks, too, to Tower, Goooo, Jockey and 82 (and anyone else I’m missing). Sticking up for me even when you think I’ve driven off the rails is kind and very much appreciated.







Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUDPT on December 07, 2020, 09:20:35 PM
Found out today that I'm in Tier 1 at work.  Wisconsin is expecting about 50k at first and our hospital is expecting that health care workers will get the first doses.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 07, 2020, 10:27:37 PM
Forgetful

I very much respect your knowledge in the these matters, but (IMO) when Kamala Harris says, “If Donald Trump says take the vaccine, I ain’t takin’ it” (direct quote) she’s being disingenuous and undermining faith in a vaccine developed while Trump is president. She (and everybody else) knows that a vaccine can’t be approved without the drug companies, FDA, etc. putting their stamp of approval on it. It’s not like we’d get a vaccine based on Trump’s senseless ramblings (hydroxy, bleach, etc.). It’ll only be available when it’s proven safe and effective, regardless of who is President. Suggesting a scenario under which an unsafe, ineffective vaccine would be available because the Donald wanted it that way was (IMO) bullish!t. And she knew that. On all of this, I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks, too, to Tower, Goooo, Jockey and 82 (and anyone else I’m missing). Sticking up for me even when you think I’ve driven off the rails is kind and very much appreciated.

A word in your defense, Lenny. Libs all knew what Kamala meant - she would not take a virus if trump put his thumb on the scales to get it approved. But,.... we dont all use the same news sources and many reported it the way you wrote about.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 08, 2020, 07:48:23 AM
Forgetful

I very much respect your knowledge in the these matters, but (IMO) when Kamala Harris says, “If Donald Trump says take the vaccine, I ain’t takin’ it” (direct quote) she’s being disingenuous and undermining faith in a vaccine developed while Trump is president. She (and everybody else) knows that a vaccine can’t be approved without the drug companies, FDA, etc. putting their stamp of approval on it. It’s not like we’d get a vaccine based on Trump’s senseless ramblings (hydroxy, bleach, etc.). It’ll only be available when it’s proven safe and effective, regardless of who is President. Suggesting a scenario under which an unsafe, ineffective vaccine would be available because the Donald wanted it that way was (IMO) bullish!t. And she knew that. On all of this, I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks, too, to Tower, Goooo, Jockey and 82 (and anyone else I’m missing). Sticking up for me even when you think I’ve driven off the rails is kind and very much appreciated.




So you are quadrupling down on this?  Are you trying to out-stupid your "BLM is Marxist" statements over the summer?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 08, 2020, 07:49:50 AM
Lots of good vaccine news.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html)


https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-set-to-release-analyses-of-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-11607423403 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-set-to-release-analyses-of-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-11607423403)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2020, 08:21:34 AM
Great to hear the Pfizer vaccine can confer some protection after the first dose. I just hope that doesn't lead to large numbers skipping the second dose, assuming they're all protected.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 08, 2020, 09:07:20 AM
Great to hear the Pfizer vaccine can confer some protection after the first dose. I just hope that doesn't lead to large numbers skipping the second dose, assuming they're all protected.

Its a shame that the WH turned down buying more of these vaccines to ensure American's got it first. Now, Europe is already being vaccinated by the Pfizer vaccine, while there will be shortages in the US.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2020, 09:55:31 AM
Its a shame that the WH turned down buying more of these vaccines to ensure American's got it first. Now, Europe is already being vaccinated by the Pfizer vaccine, while there will be shortages in the US.


Yep. I have long believed that it will likely be late spring or early summer before vaccines are widely available to the general public. And even that may be optimistic if the federal government doesn't wake up and provide resources for distribution and administration.

OWS was a good and necessary thing, but the execution seems questionable. If they were only going to choose to support and purchase from one mRNA vaccine manufacturer, it makes no sense to choose an unproven company like Moderna over a company with a long and successful track record like Pfizer.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 08, 2020, 10:37:29 AM
Great to hear the Pfizer vaccine can confer some protection after the first dose. I just hope that doesn't lead to large numbers skipping the second dose, assuming they're all protected.

Here is a good explanation as to why that’s bad (or conversely the suggestions to one-dose more people rather than full dose less)

https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1336323008755978241?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1336323008755978241?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 08, 2020, 10:38:00 AM

Yep. I have long believed that it will likely be late spring or early summer before vaccines are widely available to the general public. And even that may be optimistic if the federal government doesn't wake up and provide resources for distribution and administration.

OWS was a good and necessary thing, but the execution seems questionable. If they were only going to choose to support and purchase from one mRNA vaccine manufacturer, it makes no sense to choose an unproven company like Moderna over a company with a long and successful track record like Pfizer.

I agree, and a certain contingent will blame it all on the new administration and claim that if the other party was in power everyone would have been vaccinated by the end of February with no problems.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 08, 2020, 10:42:06 AM

Yep. I have long believed that it will likely be late spring or early summer before vaccines are widely available to the general public. And even that may be optimistic if the federal government doesn't wake up and provide resources for distribution and administration.

OWS was a good and necessary thing, but the execution seems questionable. If they were only going to choose to support and purchase from one mRNA vaccine manufacturer, it makes no sense to choose an unproven company like Moderna over a company with a long and successful track record like Pfizer.

Gottlieb who carries a lot of weight in general but even more so as a board member of Pfizer confirming the reports.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/529212-trump-officials-passed-on-multiple-offers-to-buy-more-pfizer-vaccine (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/529212-trump-officials-passed-on-multiple-offers-to-buy-more-pfizer-vaccine)

I get the position by Slaoui we could be fine without more from Pfizer. But if Moderna has production problems or either Oxford or J&J have issues getting approved it’s not going to look good at all. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 08, 2020, 11:20:15 AM


So you are quadrupling down on this?  Are you trying to out-stupid your "BLM is Marxist" statements over the summer?

Shocking that you are the one trying to keep the argument going. ::)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 08, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
Its a shame that the WH turned down buying more of these vaccines to ensure American's got it first. Now, Europe is already being vaccinated by the Pfizer vaccine, while there will be shortages in the US.

Forgetful, could you (or anyone else) explain a little about how these pre-purchases work?  I'm generally far from a Trump administration apologist, but it seems like a really tough spot to determine how to purchase/reserve from a number of competing vaccines, all before any have received any approvals and it seems even before release of sufficient testing data to project which will be the most successful?  I'm not jazzed about what I'm hearing about the untested nature of the Moderna technology nor their track record of bringing products to market, but was the alternative to put all of our eggs in the Pfizer basket? In that case, would it have been possible that another vaccine proved more effective than Pfizer, and we'd be blaming the administration for just throwing gobs of money at Pfizer without sufficient evidence that it shouldn't have been diversifying among the vaccine candidates?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 08, 2020, 01:23:54 PM
I just watched the video of Dr. Murphy from Northwestern who is on the WGN morning news everyday. He said that the feds bought millions of doses from a number of different companies working on possible vaccines, which he said is what they had to do. And sometimes those work out great, and sometimes the vaccines don’t work out, so basically you are hedging your bets. You cannot put all your eggs in one basket. He was more optimistic about the Moderna also entering the picture right now than the Astra-Zeneca.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2020, 01:27:01 PM
Forgetful, could you (or anyone else) explain a little about how these pre-purchases work?  I'm generally far from a Trump administration apologist, but it seems like a really tough spot to determine how to purchase/reserve from a number of competing vaccines, all before any have received any approvals and it seems even before release of sufficient testing data to project which will be the most successful?  I'm not jazzed about what I'm hearing about the untested nature of the Moderna technology nor their track record of bringing products to market, but was the alternative to put all of our eggs in the Pfizer basket? In that case, would it have been possible that another vaccine proved more effective than Pfizer, and we'd be blaming the administration for just throwing gobs of money at Pfizer without sufficient evidence that it shouldn't have been diversifying among the vaccine candidates?


First, we didn't have to fund only one mRNA vaccine manufacturer. That was an Administration decision. They could just as easily funded both Pfizer and Moderna. Frankly, that would have been my choice.

But once it got down to a choice between the two, my preference would have been for a company that has successfully brought many products to market. Even a 6-month delay due to a supply chain issue would be devastating, so I'd rather bet on a company who has vast experience with such matters.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 08, 2020, 01:59:42 PM
Forgetful, could you (or anyone else) explain a little about how these pre-purchases work?  I'm generally far from a Trump administration apologist, but it seems like a really tough spot to determine how to purchase/reserve from a number of competing vaccines, all before any have received any approvals and it seems even before release of sufficient testing data to project which will be the most successful?  I'm not jazzed about what I'm hearing about the untested nature of the Moderna technology nor their track record of bringing products to market, but was the alternative to put all of our eggs in the Pfizer basket? In that case, would it have been possible that another vaccine proved more effective than Pfizer, and we'd be blaming the administration for just throwing gobs of money at Pfizer without sufficient evidence that it shouldn't have been diversifying among the vaccine candidates?

Gooo has already hit on some important details, but I'll add another.

Eventually we will need 600+M doses for our country. Does that mean you only order 400M..., 600M doses? For an extra $2-3B we could have secured another 100M doses from Pfizer. Worst case scenario, we don't need them and can donate/sell them to other countries.

We should have over bought if anything. Make sure that we have insurance plans in case some don't pan out, don't skimp.

Not to mention that prepurchasing more, would have likely led them to invest more in production allowing more doses to come online faster.

Extremely short-sighted and odd move.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 08, 2020, 03:26:20 PM

Extremely short-sighted and odd move.

Not really for the most incompetent administration of all time.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 08, 2020, 04:24:10 PM
Thanks to everyone that responded. I am pretty ignorant on how the particulars of buying doses before approval or full development of the data, so this has been helpful.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 08, 2020, 07:35:35 PM
Thanks to everyone that responded. I am pretty ignorant on how the particulars of buying doses before approval or full development of the data, so this has been helpful.

Forgetful and Goo have been outstanding resources here.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 09, 2020, 04:32:58 PM
Looks like WI heath officials are guessing that the population of WI will be vaccinated by Fall 2021

https://www.wisn.com/article/covid-19-wisconsin-warns-most-wont-get-vaccine-until-fall-of-2021/34908664

> Department of Health Services Secretary Andrea Palm: "It really is hard to express how long it will take to vaccinate enough folks to get to a place where we can get back to normal," she said. "I think our best guess is the late summer, fall timeframe."

> She added that of the COVID-19 tests done in Wisconsin to date, about 2.6 million, are still fewer than the number of Wisconsinites who must be vaccinated.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 10, 2020, 01:50:28 PM
Somewhere in one of these threads, somebody asked if a person still needs to wear a mask once they get the vaccine. I believe forgetful already answered that question (YES) and briefly explained why, but I found this NYTimes article to be a good reminder as well:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask.html?action=click&algo=lda&block=editors_picks_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=415636143&impression_id=18cfdcc2-3b20-11eb-9899-d99550749359&index=2&pgtype=Article&region=ccolumn&req_id=44031104&surface=home-featured&variant=1_lda&action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article&region=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 10, 2020, 11:06:40 PM
The advisory panel voted 17-4 for approval of the vaccine.

Is it normal to have about 20% of the panel go against a vaccine and still have it OK’d? Is it usually unanimous or closer to it?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 10, 2020, 11:24:41 PM
The advisory panel voted 17-4 for approval of the vaccine.

Is it normal to have about 20% of the panel go against a vaccine and still have it OK’d? Is it usually unanimous or closer to it?


Drugs are often approved with split votes. In this case, I would not be too troubled by the four dissenting votes. As I understand it, the chief concern was use in 16 and 17-year-olds. Frankly, I was surprised that they even considered this, and expected it only to be considered (and approved) for ages 18 and up.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 10, 2020, 11:34:29 PM

Drugs are often approved with split votes. In this case, I would not be too troubled by the four dissenting votes. As I understand it, the chief concern was use in 16 and 17-year-olds. Frankly, I was surprised that they even considered this, and expected it only to be considered (and approved) for ages 18 and up.

Thanks, Goo. Kinda what I thought, but wasn’t sure.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 10, 2020, 11:36:17 PM

Drugs are often approved with split votes. In this case, I would not be too troubled by the four dissenting votes. As I understand it, the chief concern was use in 16 and 17-year-olds. Frankly, I was surprised that they even considered this, and expected it only to be considered (and approved) for ages 18 and up.

I didn't realize they approved it for 16 an 17 year olds. That is surprising, and kind of odd, as I think it is completely unnecessary to authorize it for 16 and 17 year olds at the moment as they will not be remotely near any priority groups.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 10, 2020, 11:36:45 PM
I just saw that Pfizer said that the 100 million doses might be all we get until June.

Not good news.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 10, 2020, 11:46:39 PM
I just saw that Pfizer said that the 100 million doses might be all we get until June.

Not good news.

That's what happens when the US government passes on buying more doses and the rest of the world is beating down their door.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 10, 2020, 11:56:25 PM
I didn't realize they approved it for 16 an 17 year olds. That is surprising, and kind of odd, as I think it is completely unnecessary to authorize it for 16 and 17 year olds at the moment as they will not be remotely near any priority groups.

Yep.

In addition to being unnecessary, I think it was a really bad strategic move. They needed to bolster public confidence in the midst of widespread concerns about people declining to take the vaccine, and a unanimous vote might have helped. Instead, they virtually guaranteed dissenting votes by including minors. And in so doing, they just made public health officials’ jobs harder....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 11, 2020, 07:47:39 AM
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccine-priority-enforcement-b42245dc-cdf0-4eec-9d6b-0769af4f63e6.html

Jumping the line for a vaccine will be pretty easy

..Experts have spent months debating the ins and outs of a complex prioritization system for these vaccines, all in the hopes of saving as many lives as possible. But the actual process will likely rely heavily on the honor system.

..providers will likely have to take people’s claims that they’re members of certain priority groups at face value.

..If you say you have diabetes, they’re not going to want to see your blood sugar,” said Eric Toner, a senior scholar with the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 11, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 01:24:37 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.


I suspect he is actually trying to undermine public confidence in the vaccine by creating the illusion that it was approved due to political pressure...so then he can blame Biden later when distribution and administration of the vaccine hits roadblocks.

Or it could just be his Napoleon complex....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 11, 2020, 01:24:59 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.


That's so delicious.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 11, 2020, 03:35:49 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.

For those saying Trump wouldn't/couldn't do something like this. Well here you go.

Fortunately, they've at least been able to collect the 2-months of safety data, and have the panel undergo a full review of the data.

Still...seriously, WTF.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 11, 2020, 03:42:48 PM
This is exactly what Vice President-Elect Harris was talking about when she said she absolutely would listen to the scientists but would not take it just because the outgoing, lame-duck president was pushing it.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 11, 2020, 03:50:49 PM
Maybe it's a controlling rights and patent issue thing, but could say Phizer and Moderna contract out production of the vaccine recipes to other pharmaceutical companies to ramp up production and availability way quicker?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 04:09:19 PM
Maybe it's a controlling rights and patent issue thing, but could say Phizer and Moderna contract out production of the vaccine recipes to other pharmaceutical companies to ramp up production and availability way quicker?


Absolutely; this happens all the time. They just need to make sure the facility meets FDA guidelines for manufacturing ("Good Manufacturing Practices"). As a matter of fact, I'd be very surprised if smaller companies like Moderna haven't done this.

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/pharmaceutical-quality-resources/current-good-manufacturing-practice-cgmp-regulations
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 11, 2020, 04:11:20 PM
Maybe it's a controlling rights and patent issue thing, but could say Phizer and Moderna contract out production of the vaccine recipes to other pharmaceutical companies to ramp up production and availability way quicker?

I've wondered bout this myself, from the standpoint of the defense production act. I really don't think it is a rights/patent issue thing. Although I don't know the exact formulation, which is important for long-term stability and other factors, I could pretty much vaccinate myself (will not, because 1) its dangerous. 2) I don't know the exact formulations).

I think the bigger issue is that we really haven't ever mass produced an mRNA vaccine, so the types of production facilities for making these formulations on scale, and also even making and validating the mRNA sequences on this type of scale, never really existed until Moderna and Pfizer built it.

So really not excess production ability out there. Could be made on smaller scales in more localized places, but validation/quality control still becomes a bit of an issue, and is part of the overall approval.

I think in terms of production infrastructure, this would have needed to be done earlier...maybe that is what Moderna did, as Goooo suggests.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 04:15:35 PM

I think the bigger issue is that we really haven't ever mass produced an mRNA vaccine, so the types of production facilities for making these formulations on scale, and also even making and validating the mRNA sequences on this type of scale, never really existed until Moderna and Pfizer built it.


Excellent point. Even though they could theoretically contract out the manufacturing, the practical aspect of finding a GMP-certified facility for mRNA vaccines might be a problem.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 04:40:44 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.
Dr. Hahn denied that occurred,
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 11, 2020, 04:42:23 PM
Dr. Hahn denied that occurred,

The president tweeted it.  So it happened, Not sure though if Hahn knew about it. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 04:51:22 PM
The president tweeted it.  So it happened, Not sure though if Hahn knew about it.
I dont read his tweets did he say he would be fired?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 04:55:00 PM
The president tweeted it.  So it happened, Not sure though if Hahn knew about it.


Part of the bizarro world of this dysfunctional administration.

Like when Comey learned that he had 'resigned' by seeing it on a newscast when he was at FBI's LA field office...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 04:56:32 PM
I dont read his tweets did he say he would be fired?


Meadows told him to 'submit his resignation' if it isn't approved by the end of the day....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-stephen-hahn-fda-covid-vaccine/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 04:58:25 PM

Meadows told him to 'submit his resignation' if it isn't approved by the end of the day....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-stephen-hahn-fda-covid-vaccine/
the cnn article states Hahn denied this.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 11, 2020, 04:59:09 PM
I dont read his tweets did he say he would be fired?

My mistake.  It does not say those words.  I was mixed what the tweet said (get the vaccines out now) with an article that attributed the firing thing to meadows. 

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1337369403638362114?s=21 (https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1337369403638362114?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 05:01:28 PM
Hahn has been quoted saying that was not what happened on the call.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 11, 2020, 05:04:13 PM
Hahn has been quoted saying that was not what happened on the call.

Yes I know.  I admitted that I was mistaken about the tweet
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 05:04:57 PM
Hahn has to deny it. If he doesn't, he plays along with Trump's game of undermining public trust in the vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 05:11:18 PM
Yes I know.  I admitted that I was mistaken about the tweet
No worries, wasnt trying to call you out, and I am no means a Trump guy. He's done enough stupid and dangerous stuff, but even hes not that stupid. The public has to trust the vaccine
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 05:22:05 PM

No worries, wasnt trying to call you out, and I am no means a Trump guy. He's done enough stupid and dangerous stuff, but even hes not that stupid. The public has to trust the vaccine



Absolutely critical. Whether it happened or not, Hahn did the right thing by denying it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 11, 2020, 09:36:58 PM
apologize if this has been mentioned as i haven't read all 700+ comments in this thread, but how long does it take for one to develop immune defense against virus after receiving the vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 11, 2020, 09:42:01 PM
(https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/F10B/production/_115770716_aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavaccine_dose_calendar_640_3x-nc.png)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 11, 2020, 10:12:07 PM
(https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/F10B/production/_115770716_aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavaccine_dose_calendar_640_3x-nc.png)

thanks rock!  but damn!  i hate needles :D
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 11, 2020, 10:51:03 PM
thanks rock!  but damn!  i hate needles :D

Hopefully the person administering yours won't be a female with a shaved head
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 12, 2020, 12:14:01 AM
Hopefully the person administering yours won't be a female with a shaved head

  and why would that be mr jesmu84?  hell, i wouldn't mind if the female had all her business taken care of and well landscaped
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 12, 2020, 08:15:26 AM
I was wondering if it was legal for businesses, and even government entities, could require employees to get vaccinated. Well, thanks to the NYT, I found out the answer: Yes, totally legal.

In 1905, the Supreme Court ruled against a pastor, Henning Jacobson, who had sued the state of Massachusetts for requiring residents to take a vaccine after an outbreak of smallpox. “Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others,” the court ruled. “It is, then, liberty regulated by law.”

That ruling, and others after, it have repeatedly reaffirmed this principle. As for private businesses, they can choose to hire, fire and transact with anyone, unless they discriminate based on a protected category.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 12, 2020, 08:26:03 AM
That will get challenged.     For some religious freedom reason, so it will have a decent chance of being overturned. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Marquette Fan on December 12, 2020, 08:52:41 AM
Opinion piece about Coivd 19 vaccines being worthless if people aren't vaccinated

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529856-covid-19-vaccines-are-worthless-if-people-arent-vaccinated
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 12, 2020, 09:20:33 AM
Opinion piece about Coivd 19 vaccines being worthless if people aren't vaccinated

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529856-covid-19-vaccines-are-worthless-if-people-arent-vaccinated

Vaccines don’t stop epidemics. Vaccinations do.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 12, 2020, 09:32:48 AM
That will get challenged.     For some religious freedom reason, so it will have a decent chance of being overturned.


It will likely be challenged, but I am not so sure it will be overturned. Even with the conservative makeup of the Supreme Court, clear established precedent is difficult to overturn.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 12, 2020, 12:09:16 PM

It will likely be challenged, but I am not so sure it will be overturned. Even with the conservative makeup of the Supreme Court, clear established precedent is difficult to overturn.

This would be my take as well. Overturning this would require the Supreme Court to completely disregard very well established legal precedent, including multiple SCOTUS decisions.

Wouldn't entirely rule it out, as we have a couple new jurists that really don't care about precedent, but would be a bit surprised.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 12, 2020, 12:33:23 PM
I was a bit embarrassed by the President's proclamation on the USA ending the pandemic with "their" vaccine.

This vaccine is jointly developed by Pfizer (US) and BioNtech (German). BioNtech has the specific expertise in mRNA technology, development, and production. They are essential to this vaccine.

It is more an example of how international collaboration can lead to major breakthroughs. Instead of celebrating international collaboration, he decided to make it political, and about us being better than others. It honestly is a sign of why we can't have nice things. Ego, and privilege "trumping," cooperation and equality.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 13, 2020, 08:13:17 AM
I was a bit embarrassed by the President's proclamation on the USA ending the pandemic with "their" vaccine.

This vaccine is jointly developed by Pfizer (US) and BioNtech (German). BioNtech has the specific expertise in mRNA technology, development, and production. They are essential to this vaccine.

It is more an example of how international collaboration can lead to major breakthroughs. Instead of celebrating international collaboration, he decided to make it political, and about us being better than others. It honestly is a sign of why we can't have nice things. Ego, and privilege "trumping," cooperation and equality.
From the snippet of an interview I heard, BioN really did the majority of the science, but they needed a much larger partner in order to get through all the steps to get it to market. They did not have the resources to get it through Phase III and so used Pfizer for all their infrastructure.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 13, 2020, 08:59:36 AM
I was a bit embarrassed by the President's proclamation on the USA ending the pandemic with "their" vaccine.

This vaccine is jointly developed by Pfizer (US) and BioNtech (German). BioNtech has the specific expertise in mRNA technology, development, and production. They are essential to this vaccine.

It is more an example of how international collaboration can lead to major breakthroughs. Instead of celebrating international collaboration, he decided to make it political, and about us being better than others. It honestly is a sign of why we can't have nice things. Ego, and privilege "trumping," cooperation and equality.

It's only the 73,552th time he has humiliated our democratic republic and the Office of the Presidency.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 13, 2020, 09:23:39 AM
I am probably going to defer getting the shot until spring.   I am not anti-vaxx.  But there are a limited number of initial doses and I have the antibodies.   I can't morally or ethically justify staying at the front of the line.    When the vaccine is available to all, I will get it then.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 13, 2020, 09:26:24 AM
From the snippet of an interview I heard, BioN really did the majority of the science, but they needed a much larger partner in order to get through all the steps to get it to market. They did not have the resources to get it through Phase III and so used Pfizer for all their infrastructure.


Correct. This is verified by Pfizer's press release announcing the collaboration.

https://investors.pfizer.com/investor-news/press-release-details/2020/Pfizer-and-BioNTech-to-Co-Develop-Potential-COVID-19-Vaccine/default.aspx

The collaboration aims to accelerate development of BioNTech’s potential first-in-class COVID-19 mRNA vaccine program, BNT162, which is expected to enter clinical testing by the end of April 2020. The rapid advancement of this collaboration builds on the research and development collaboration into which Pfizer and BioNTech entered in 2018 to develop mRNA-based vaccines for prevention of influenza.

“We are proud that our ongoing, successful relationship with BioNTech gives our companies the resiliency to mobilize our collective resources with extraordinary speed in the face of this worldwide challenge,” said Mikael Dolsten, Chief Scientific Officer and President, Worldwide Research, Development & Medical, Pfizer. “We believe that by pairing Pfizer’s development, regulatory and commercial capabilities with BioNTech’s mRNA vaccine technology and expertise as one of the industry leaders, we are reinforcing our commitment to do everything we can to combat this escalating pandemic, as quickly as possible.”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 13, 2020, 09:32:10 AM
These vaccines are a product of globalism.  Efficiencies of scale plus innovation in startups. Plus a chip for both capitalism and socialism and how they can interact. 

But bad, I guess. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 13, 2020, 10:25:47 AM
I am probably going to defer getting the shot until spring.   I am not anti-vaxx.  But there are a limited number of initial doses and I have the antibodies.   I can't morally or ethically justify staying at the front of the line.    When the vaccine is available to all, I will get it then.

good points tower.  i'm going to get tested for antibodies first.  i have been seeing patients since may 1st.  i don't even want to guess how many people i have been in contact with since then...a few thousand??  if i had covid, it had to have been a very mild form because i never noted any of the symptoms i've been reading of.  i haven't missed a day of work due to any illness for multiple years.  i know i am not invincible, and i thank the good Lord every day for my good health...today.  i owe it to one who may need it more than i   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 14, 2020, 08:53:40 AM
good points tower.  i'm going to get tested for antibodies first.  i have been seeing patients since may 1st.  i don't even want to guess how many people i have been in contact with since then...a few thousand??  if i had covid, it had to have been a very mild form because i never noted any of the symptoms i've been reading of.  i haven't missed a day of work due to any illness for multiple years.  i know i am not invincible, and i thank the good Lord every day for my good health...today.  i owe it to one who may need it more than i   


Many locations are hurting for blood donors.  If you donate through the Red Cross, they will do an antibody test for free and it just takes a couple of days.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 14, 2020, 09:30:29 AM

Many locations are hurting for blood donors.  If you donate through the Red Cross, they will do an antibody test for free and it just takes a couple of days.

This is exactly how my parents found out they had antibodies.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on December 16, 2020, 08:24:12 AM
Chief of Critical Care at United Memorial Medical Center in Houston, said more than 50% of his nursing staff does not want to get the Coronavirus vaccine. When he asked them why, the reasons were political:
It's towards the end of the 6 minutes.
 https://twitter.com/BrandyZadrozny/status/1339182966082310144?s=19
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 16, 2020, 08:37:18 AM
My mother, who has been in the hospital for the last 2+ months for stuff other than COVID, told me that she wasn't going to get the vaccine as long as Trump was in office.     I yelled at her.    Told her that was one of the dumbest things she had ever said and that if she didn't take the vaccine when offered she was a damn fool.   

Obviously, I am past the point of worrying about my parent's feelings.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUfan12 on December 16, 2020, 09:03:33 AM
I feel for ya, Tower. My parents apparently get their medical news from right-wing Catholic sources who ran with the "made with real aborted fetus!" story about the vaccine, and now they refuse to take it.

Oh, and dad's a immunocompromised transplant recipient.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 16, 2020, 09:11:42 AM
I feel for ya, Tower. My parents apparently get their medical news from right-wing Catholic sources who ran with the "made with real aborted fetus!" story about the vaccine, and now they refuse to take it.

Oh, and dad's a immunocompromised transplant recipient.

Everything happens so fast today.  I can see it in business just over the 20 years I have been involved in economic cycles, etc.  I wonder if some of this is a symptom of people just trying to keep up.  In some ways its easier to believe false-hoods than wrap your mind around the amazing progress that has occurred.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on December 16, 2020, 10:16:31 AM
At home tests now approved results in 20 minutes.  I know the accuracy will not be 100% but I think this is what we have needed.  Sure some will feel sick take a test and it is negative and then go about their business. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 16, 2020, 10:30:44 AM
At home tests now approved results in 20 minutes.  I know the accuracy will not be 100% but I think this is what we have needed.  Sure some will feel sick take a test and it is negative and then go about their business. 


Which isn't a very good idea right now.  If you feel sick, call your doctor, and get tested. 

People shouldn't be "going about their business" if they are sick anyway, regardless of Covid or not.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 16, 2020, 10:54:51 AM
Last Friday, my 14 year old woke up with a sore throat.    Poop.     At our airport, they opened a quick test drive through, ostensibly for anyone who wants to fly.    Went out there, got the test (paid $75 out of my pocket), by the time we got back home, the e-mail had arrived saying he was negative.    Called the school, told them what we had done, and asked if they minded if he came in with a sore throat.    They said no and he was at school by 9:30.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on December 16, 2020, 10:57:32 AM
Chief of Critical Care at United Memorial Medical Center in Houston, said more than 50% of his nursing staff does not want to get the Coronavirus vaccine. When he asked them why, the reasons were political:
It's towards the end of the 6 minutes.
 https://twitter.com/BrandyZadrozny/status/1339182966082310144?s=19

Nurses are often required to get other vaccines, including an annual flu shot.

I don't know why they would make an exception for the Covid vaccine.  I think a hospital would be perfectly within their rights to suspend nurses and other medical personnel pending proof of vaccination.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warrior2008 on December 16, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
The insanity of letting politics of either persuasion stopping people from getting vaccinated boggles my mind.  Perhaps there is a lesson in this for everyone going forward about the long term ramifications of political tribalism, but I fear it’s a message people don’t want to hear.

I’m in healthcare and have routinely explained to patients, family, friends, whoever that this only ends when enough people have immunity, albeit natural or acquired.  So if you want to get out of this dystopian universe quicker, when it’s your turn, get the vaccine.  It’s the simplest way to put it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on December 16, 2020, 10:59:41 AM

Which isn't a very good idea right now.  If you feel sick, call your doctor, and get tested. 

People shouldn't be "going about their business" if they are sick anyway, regardless of Covid or not.

exactly, it will be interesting the impact at home testing has on things going forward.  How does it impact quarantine for close contact? 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
The insanity of letting politics of either persuasion stopping people from getting vaccinated boggles my mind.  Perhaps there is a lesson in this for everyone going forward about the long term ramifications of political tribalism, but I fear it’s a message people don’t want to hear.

I’m in healthcare and have routinely explained to patients, family, friends, whoever that this only ends when enough people have immunity, albeit natural or acquired.  So if you want to get out of this dystopian universe quicker, when it’s your turn, get the vaccine.  It’s the simplest way to put it.

I feel that the attempted regulatory capture of the CDC led to valid concerns about whether a vaccine would be approved too early. If politicians had stayed out of the CDC then the anti-vax movement would be the only people concerned about getting vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 16, 2020, 12:16:12 PM
The insanity of letting politics of either persuasion stopping people from getting vaccinated boggles my mind.  Perhaps there is a lesson in this for everyone going forward about the long term ramifications of political tribalism, but I fear it’s a message people don’t want to hear.

I’m in healthcare and have routinely explained to patients, family, friends, whoever that this only ends when enough people have immunity, albeit natural or acquired.  So if you want to get out of this dystopian universe quicker, when it’s your turn, get the vaccine.  It’s the simplest way to put it.
Completely agree.   The internet is not always your friend.   Seems like doubling down on dumb.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 12:22:24 PM
Nurses are often required to get other vaccines, including an annual flu shot.

I don't know why they would make an exception for the Covid vaccine.  I think a hospital would be perfectly within their rights to suspend nurses and other medical personnel pending proof of vaccination.

Not exactly. Nothing is "required" pending your reason for exemption.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 12:22:55 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 16, 2020, 12:23:44 PM
No.  You should definitely fear the virus more.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 16, 2020, 12:30:05 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?

The physician that licenses my mom's medispa has said there could be some concern regarding infertility in women from Pfizer's something about synthesizing some natural protein always has the potential of causing issues. That being said we've seen enough physicians look foolish during this that is take it will a grain of salt
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 16, 2020, 12:37:25 PM
I’m 66. I’ll take my chances with a long-term effect versus getting Covid.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 16, 2020, 12:38:25 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?

No
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 16, 2020, 12:52:47 PM
exactly, it will be interesting the impact at home testing has on things going forward.  How does it impact quarantine for close contact?


I saw a news story that indicated rollout in the US will take some time. According to the story, the test probably won't be widely available in the US until sometime in the spring. By then, a pretty good percentage of folks who want a vaccine will have had a chance to get one. And the people who have chosen not to get one probably don't care much about their test result....

So yeah - it might impact numbers and quarantining a bit, but not nearly as much as if you could buy it at Walgreens today.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 16, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I feel for ya, Tower. My parents apparently get their medical news from right-wing Catholic sources who ran with the "made with real aborted fetus!" story about the vaccine, and now they refuse to take it.

Oh, and dad's a immunocompromised transplant recipient.


Show this to your mom.

https://twitter.com/CatholicRGV/status/1338995144654123010?s=20
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 16, 2020, 01:14:16 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?

Actually I am a little, yeah.  Probably more out of suspicious predisposition than anything.  But this virus is ravaging the planet, and the only way to stop it will be for everyone to get this vaccine.  So I just don't think my vague distrust of pharma and our political instututions is a valid reason to not roll up my sleeve.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 16, 2020, 01:27:15 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?


I always have concerns when I take something new, and these vaccines are no different.

But given the huge risks of Covid (even for people who survive), it's a chance I am more than willing to take.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BM1090 on December 16, 2020, 01:30:47 PM
Another dumb question. Should I expect my healthcare to provider to contact me when a vaccine is available to me? Or should I reach out to them to let them know I'd be interested after it was sufficiently offered to higher-risk groups?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 01:53:44 PM
Found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/kdm82i/askscience_ama_series_got_questions_about/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Good answers here. Generally, the answer on long term safety/side effects is theorized as minimal, but we just don't know.

I am more likely to seek out the Moderna version just based on their safety monitoring during trials
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 16, 2020, 02:31:08 PM
Another dumb question. Should I expect my healthcare to provider to contact me when a vaccine is available to me? Or should I reach out to them to let them know I'd be interested after it was sufficiently offered to higher-risk groups?

Was chatting about that with my wife this AM.  It's easy to tell hospital workers and long term senior facilities when their vaccines are ready, but I don't think states have figured out how to notify the general public yet (and keep it orderly). 

I'm imagining "Last names beginning with G can begin to go on <day>".  But who knows.  This is going to be an adventure in tracking which doses are "first" and "second" and "whoops, we were supposed to save that case for second doses???". 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 16, 2020, 02:33:49 PM
Was chatting about that with my wife this AM.  It's easy to tell hospital workers and long term senior facilities when their vaccines are ready, but I don't think states have figured out how to notify the general public yet (and keep it orderly). 

I'm imagining "Last names beginning with G can begin to go on <day>".  But who knows.  This is going to be an adventure in tracking which doses are "first" and "second" and "whoops, we were supposed to save that case for second doses???".

That, plus not everyone who's "at risk" is in a long term care facility.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warrior2008 on December 16, 2020, 02:48:42 PM
Was chatting about that with my wife this AM.  It's easy to tell hospital workers and long term senior facilities when their vaccines are ready, but I don't think states have figured out how to notify the general public yet (and keep it orderly). 

I'm imagining "Last names beginning with G can begin to go on <day>".  But who knows.  This is going to be an adventure in tracking which doses are "first" and "second" and "whoops, we were supposed to save that case for second doses???".

Using Wisconsin as an example and listening to the WI DHS discuss this today on their teleconference, the priority has been rightly placed on healthcare workers with daily direct covid exposure and nursing homes.  From what I can tell, those groups seem to have a somewhat clear plan over the course of the next month or two.  After that, the rest of the state's 1a group is basically the entirety of the healthcare field from doctors, to dentists, to PTs, to medical transport.  Its roughly 400k people and as of today, there doesn't seem to be a clear plan for vaccinating this group.  That's not be alarmist, but depending on how this group has their vaccines delivered should tell the public what to expect on how it will have its vaccines administered.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 16, 2020, 03:27:29 PM
Lake County in Illinois has a registration program of some sort, MU alum Steve Bertrand mentioned it I think yesterday on the radio.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 16, 2020, 04:31:15 PM

Found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/kdm82i/askscience_ama_series_got_questions_about/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Good answers here. Generally, the answer on long term safety/side effects is theorized as minimal, but we just don't know.

I am more likely to seek out the Moderna version just based on their safety monitoring during trials



What safety monitoring information are you referring to? Most of the information I have seen indicates that side effects are slightly more common and serious with the Moderna vaccine:

https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-comparison-how-the-shots-compare-2020-12

Pfizer: Compared to Moderna's shot, there were fewer reports of pain, fatigue, and headaches in Pfizer's vaccine trials. The most common side effects were injection site pain (84%), fatigue (63%), and headache (55%). Severe side effects after the second dose happened with less frequency than Moderna's trial, with the highest rates among volunteers under 55 years old: 5% recorded severe fatigue, 3% had severe headaches, 2% had severe chills, and 2% had new or worsened muscle pain.

Moderna: More than nine in 10 people registered some level of side effects, with most being mild or moderate. The most common reactions were injection site pain (92%), fatigue (69%), headache (63%), and muscle pain (60%).  Younger participants recorded more side effects. Among volunteers ages 18-64, nearly 1 in 5 had a severe reaction after the second booster dose.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 06:19:34 PM

What safety monitoring information are you referring to? Most of the information I have seen indicates that side effects are slightly more common and serious with the Moderna vaccine:

https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-comparison-how-the-shots-compare-2020-12

Pfizer: Compared to Moderna's shot, there were fewer reports of pain, fatigue, and headaches in Pfizer's vaccine trials. The most common side effects were injection site pain (84%), fatigue (63%), and headache (55%). Severe side effects after the second dose happened with less frequency than Moderna's trial, with the highest rates among volunteers under 55 years old: 5% recorded severe fatigue, 3% had severe headaches, 2% had severe chills, and 2% had new or worsened muscle pain.

Moderna: More than nine in 10 people registered some level of side effects, with most being mild or moderate. The most common reactions were injection site pain (92%), fatigue (69%), headache (63%), and muscle pain (60%).  Younger participants recorded more side effects. Among volunteers ages 18-64, nearly 1 in 5 had a severe reaction after the second booster dose.


This is from the reddit thread:

Quote
They are similar in the technology of mRNA for S protein production as the immunogen. They differ in the amount required of their formulation and in the temperature for storage. Moderna had more of a range of people in the study and followed them more closely from the time of enrollment. Pfizer had participants keep an e-diary and to self-report if they had symptoms.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on December 16, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Chick Jr just texted me that since it has been fewer than 90 days since she contracted Covid-19, she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital.

She is okay with that; she thinks that folks that have no antibodies at all should go ahead of her.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 16, 2020, 07:31:46 PM
"she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital"

I assume that means she is currently ineligible to receive it with the supplies the have, but will still get one before most of us.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 16, 2020, 07:42:43 PM
Chick Jr just texted me that since it has been fewer than 90 days since she contracted Covid-19, she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital.

She is okay with that; she thinks that folks that have no antibodies at all should go ahead of her.

I have the option, but I am going to go to the back of the line.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 16, 2020, 07:44:53 PM
This is from the reddit thread:


Perhaps I missed it, but I still don’t see where it says that Moderna’s vaccine has fewer side effects. All I see is that they monitored them differently. But having been involved with the oversight clinical trials for a couple of decades, both methods are very common and widely accepted and I don’t necessarily see one as “better“ or “worse“ than the other.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on December 16, 2020, 08:12:17 PM
"she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital"

I assume that means she is currently ineligible to receive it with the supplies the have, but will still get one before most of us.

I assume so.  She will be 90 days out from her diagnosis in late February.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 16, 2020, 08:20:36 PM
I assume so.  She will be 90 days out from her diagnosis in late February.

Hah, I only interpret the 90 days as a line in the sand in terms of determining eligibility - not that she has to wait 90 days.  More like she'll be in the tier of hospital workers that includes those with possible antibodies already (whenever that is).  But keep us updated - it's interesting (to me) to follow the vaccine rollout.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 16, 2020, 09:27:45 PM
I assume so.  She will be 90 days out from her diagnosis in late February.

I don't believe there is safety data on people recently infected with COVID. So the guidance on vaccine states that those recently infected should wait.

I know I had heard previously at least 1 month post recovery, maybe it is actually 90 days.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 09:58:29 PM

Perhaps I missed it, but I still don’t see where it says that Moderna’s vaccine has fewer side effects. All I see is that they monitored them differently. But having been involved with the oversight clinical trials for a couple of decades, both methods are very common and widely accepted and I don’t necessarily see one as “better“ or “worse“ than the other.

You asked me to clarify what I initially said with regards to safety monitoring.

I never said anything about the % or severity of side effects
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 16, 2020, 10:04:17 PM
You asked me to clarify what I initially said with regards to safety monitoring.

I never said anything about the % or severity of side effects


So even though there is a higher incidence of side effects, you want their vaccine because they used a different process?

Just trying to understand.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 17, 2020, 09:08:31 PM
trump already screwing up the vaccine. Should we be surprised?


Millions of doses of the COVID-19 vaccine are languishing in warehouses awaiting shipment instructions from the Trump administration — even as states are clamoring for them — vaccine manufacturer Pzifer said in a statement Thursday.

The startling bottleneck is occurring as America is breaking daily COVID-19 death tolls. The U.S. lost more people on Wednesday alone (3,611) than the number of people who died on 9/11.

Officials in several states said they were told Wednesday that their second shipments of Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine next week has been mysteriously reduced, CNN reported. That triggered fears by states that the Trump administration may be incapable of hitting the target of delivering enough vaccine doses for 20 million injections by the end of the year. A source told The Washington Post that Pfizer executives were “baffled” that the Trump administration wasn’t immediately shipping out all of the vaccine.

Pfizer defended itself amid the rising fears about vaccine delivery, noting that it has no production problems — and has doses ready to go.

“This week, we successfully shipped all 2.9 million doses that we were asked to ship by the U.S. Government to the locations specified by them,” Pzifer said in its statement. “We have millions more doses sitting in our warehouse but, as of now, we have not received any shipment instructions for additional doses,” the company added.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 18, 2020, 07:33:08 AM
Pence gets vaccine.

It only took 9 months for one member of the Trump Administration to finally be a decent role model one time regarding COVID-19.

Now ... resume planning the Super-Spreader Xmas parties!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 18, 2020, 07:38:39 AM
Pence gets vaccine.

It only took 9 months for one member of the Trump Administration to finally be a decent role model one time regarding COVID-19.

Now ... resume planning the Super-Spreader Xmas parties!

To be fair, Pence is about the only person in the administration who doesn't have antibodies, and will need the vaccine.  ;D
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 07:51:33 AM
Pence wasn't listening to Tucker Carlson, who told his viewing audience to not trust the vaccines.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 08:46:59 AM
Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-doses.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Interesting opinion piece in the NYT. It proposes a single-dose trial among young, healthy frontline workers to see if a single dose provides sufficient protection.

But to me, the more tantalizing answer actually lies buried in the article, almost as an afterthought: There is no 'magic timeframe' for giving the second dose, and we might get the same ~95% efficacy if we lengthen the time to the booster shot. The 21-day and 28-day timeframes in the Pfizer and Moderna trials were just guesses...and likely chosen so they could finish the studies more quickly. If we changed those timeframes, it's quite plausible the protection for the first shot would still exist for a few months...thus freeing up more shots for people to get their initial vaccinations now.

Not the most scientific approach, and I seriously doubt they'll change anything at this point, but an interesting possibility given the extreme situation we're living through.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 18, 2020, 09:40:58 AM
Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-doses.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Interesting opinion piece in the NYT. It proposes a single-dose trial among young, healthy frontline workers to see if a single dose provides sufficient protection.

But to me, the more tantalizing answer actually lies buried in the article, almost as an afterthought: There is no 'magic timeframe' for giving the second dose, and we might get the same ~95% efficacy if we lengthen the time to the booster shot. The 21-day and 28-day timeframes in the Pfizer and Moderna trials were just guesses...and likely chosen so they could finish the studies more quickly. If we changed those timeframes, it's quite plausible the protection for the first shot would still exist for a few months...thus freeing up more shots for people to get their initial vaccinations now.

Not the most scientific approach, and I seriously doubt they'll change anything at this point, but an interesting possibility given the extreme situation we're living through.

I was thinking of something similar to this. A couple ways to get to a "herd" immunity faster.

1. Estimates say that the actual number the have been infected is closer to 60M (I don't think it is nearly this high, but the fact remains that a lot have been infected and don't know). Those already have some level of immunity. If we could screen those to be vaccinated with rapid antibody tests first, and only give vaccines to those without antibodies we could vaccinate more faster.

2. For those that are young, and otherwise healthy. Give 1 dose. I believe the Moderna vaccine proved to be ~70% effective with a single dose. Prioritize the Moderna vaccine to that group.

3. Possibly, in general give everyone 1-dose. The actual studies showed 50-70% efficacy after one dose, and decreased severity in general. Although not perfect, this will drastically decrease the hospital burden, and save more lives. Possibly only give 2-dose regimes to nursing home/high-risk elderly.

4. Quit prioritizing work-from-home medical staff.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 18, 2020, 09:57:35 AM
If it were me, I would just try to execute the plan rather than getting creative.  We have a hard enough time with the simple things.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 10:19:44 AM
A potential kick in the groin for Michiganians.   

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/12/pfas-exposure-may-reduce-covid-19-vaccine-potency-experts-warn.html


PFAS exposure may reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Its DJOver on December 18, 2020, 10:22:43 AM
https://twitter.com/Emaperidol/status/1339224471731843073

Quote
My boyfriend got his covid vaccine yesterday and I can tell you the most prominent side effect is the inability to shut up about getting the covid vaccine
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 18, 2020, 10:32:56 AM
A potential kick in the groin for Michiganians.   

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/12/pfas-exposure-may-reduce-covid-19-vaccine-potency-experts-warn.html


PFAS exposure may reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine.   

Great, we have a bunch of them here too.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 18, 2020, 11:12:38 AM
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1339704802964615168?s=19
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 12:28:13 PM
I was thinking of something similar to this. A couple ways to get to a "herd" immunity faster.

1. Estimates say that the actual number the have been infected is closer to 60M (I don't think it is nearly this high, but the fact remains that a lot have been infected and don't know). Those already have some level of immunity. If we could screen those to be vaccinated with rapid antibody tests first, and only give vaccines to those without antibodies we could vaccinate more faster.

2. For those that are young, and otherwise healthy. Give 1 dose. I believe the Moderna vaccine proved to be ~70% effective with a single dose. Prioritize the Moderna vaccine to that group.

3. Possibly, in general give everyone 1-dose. The actual studies showed 50-70% efficacy after one dose, and decreased severity in general. Although not perfect, this will drastically decrease the hospital burden, and save more lives. Possibly only give 2-dose regimes to nursing home/high-risk elderly.

4. Quit prioritizing work-from-home medical staff.


The other alternative: Start with one dose until everybody who wants one gets it...then move on to the second dose, whether it's three months or a year later. It gets one shot in everybody's arm faster, but doesn't eliminate the added boost from the second shot.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUDPT on December 18, 2020, 12:36:06 PM
Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-doses.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Interesting opinion piece in the NYT. It proposes a single-dose trial among young, healthy frontline workers to see if a single dose provides sufficient protection.

But to me, the more tantalizing answer actually lies buried in the article, almost as an afterthought: There is no 'magic timeframe' for giving the second dose, and we might get the same ~95% efficacy if we lengthen the time to the booster shot. The 21-day and 28-day timeframes in the Pfizer and Moderna trials were just guesses...and likely chosen so they could finish the studies more quickly. If we changed those timeframes, it's quite plausible the protection for the first shot would still exist for a few months...thus freeing up more shots for people to get their initial vaccinations now.

Not the most scientific approach, and I seriously doubt they'll change anything at this point, but an interesting possibility given the extreme situation we're living through.

The confidence interval on the low end of 1 dose of Pfizer was 28%? effective. Too low.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUDPT on December 18, 2020, 12:42:17 PM
I work in Madison, at one of the three main hospitals. Hospital A is affiliated with the university who thinks they are good at basketball. Hospital B is us, who are “partners” of hospital A. Hospital C is down the street. Madison got vaccines on Tuesday.

Hospital A is vaccinating their top two tiers.
Hospital C is vaccinating every employee.
Hospital B has no vaccines and no idea when they are getting them.

Hospital A’s Covid population has been around 65-70.
Hospital B’s Covid population has been around 50-60 (a majority of which have come from Hospital A).
Hospital C’s Covid population has been around 30-40.

We were told Hospital B didn’t get initial vaccines because they didn’t have as many employees.

AMERICA!!!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 12:56:35 PM
The confidence interval on the low end of 1 dose of Pfizer was 28%? effective. Too low.


Agreed. That's why I think we should stick with 2 doses, but just split them a little further apart. The difference between 21 days and 3 months is likely to be inconsequential, and would help us to return to a semblance of normalcy more quickly.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 18, 2020, 01:10:17 PM
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1339704802964615168?s=19

As I have said here often, cruelty IS the point.

By withholding the vaccine, they are choosing to kill people. Sounds like murder to me.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 18, 2020, 01:45:32 PM
I work in Madison, at one of the three main hospitals. Hospital A is affiliated with the university who thinks they are good at basketball. Hospital B is us, who are “partners” of hospital A. Hospital C is down the street. Madison got vaccines on Tuesday.

Hospital A is vaccinating their top two tiers.
Hospital C is vaccinating every employee.
Hospital B has no vaccines and no idea when they are getting them.

Hospital A’s Covid population has been around 65-70.
Hospital B’s Covid population has been around 50-60 (a majority of which have come from Hospital A).
Hospital C’s Covid population has been around 30-40.

We were told Hospital B didn’t get initial vaccines because they didn’t have as many employees.

AMERICA!!!



Eye'd recommend quittin' B and gettin' a gig @ A. America, aina?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 18, 2020, 01:54:18 PM
I work in Madison, at one of the three main hospitals. Hospital A is affiliated with the university who thinks they are good at basketball. Hospital B is us, who are “partners” of hospital A. Hospital C is down the street. Madison got vaccines on Tuesday.

Hospital A is vaccinating their top two tiers.
Hospital C is vaccinating every employee.
Hospital B has no vaccines and no idea when they are getting them.

Hospital A’s Covid population has been around 65-70.
Hospital B’s Covid population has been around 50-60 (a majority of which have come from Hospital A).
Hospital C’s Covid population has been around 30-40.

We were told Hospital B didn’t get initial vaccines because they didn’t have as many employees.

AMERICA!!!

A = UW Hospital
B = Meriter
C = SSM Health

Pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 18, 2020, 04:19:17 PM
Just received mine. Pfizer.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 06:08:37 PM
Just received mine. Pfizer.


I think you're the first here. Hope it goes uneventfully.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 18, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Eye'm jellus. If ya score sum xtra Pfizer or Moderna, help a bro out, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 06:34:54 PM
Eye'm jellus. If ya score sum xtra Pfizer or Moderna, help a bro out, hey?


Even though you aren't a first responder or ER or ICU provider, it would seem a dentist oughta be pretty high on the list. Any idea what level of priority you have?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 18, 2020, 07:13:22 PM
1A in Wisconsin, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 08:12:19 PM
1A in Wisconsin, hey?


👍

Hopefully the line moves quickly.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 08:13:03 PM
FDA just officially approved Moderna vaccine for emergency use.

Facilities should begin receiving doses by Monday.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUDPT on December 18, 2020, 10:30:49 PM
A = UW Hospital
B = Meriter
C = SSM Health

Pretty obvious.

Bingo. A keeps sending positives to B, where no vaccinated workers work.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 19, 2020, 07:44:56 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/us/covid-vaccine-wealthy-california-patients/index.html

And then there’s these entitled people.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 19, 2020, 08:16:25 AM
Pence wasn't listening to Tucker Carlson, who told his viewing audience to not trust the vaccines.

From today's AP article ...

Pence didn’t flinch during the quick prick, nor did his wife, Karen ...

... who is used to her husband's quick prick.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 19, 2020, 10:49:58 AM
vaccine drive immunity on top of illness driven immunity topic. 

https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1339998897498775552?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1339998897498775552?s=21)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2020, 10:54:06 AM
Can't get the vaccine quick enough, being 10 inches from people's grills and such all day, aina?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 19, 2020, 11:42:32 AM
Can't get the vaccine quick enough, being 10 inches from people's grills and such all day, aina?

That's very close, get your eyes checked?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2020, 11:46:59 AM
To do well what you see, you must see well what you do, aina?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 19, 2020, 08:52:23 PM
To do well what you see, you must see well what you do, aina?

ADA/WDA says dental and support personnel will be front of the line

  gotta love pfizer though-they have a drug(that little blue vitamin) that "raises" something from the dead and now, hopefully one that can save one from death
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 20, 2020, 06:17:03 PM
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people??  have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet?  didn't think so.  she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk.  all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries.  stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 20, 2020, 06:20:10 PM
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people??  have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet?  didn't think so.  she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk.  all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries.  stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple

You realize that all members of Congress are getting it right?  Even those who denied it was a big deal just a few months ago.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUDPT on December 20, 2020, 06:22:32 PM
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people??  have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet?  didn't think so.  she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk.  all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries.  stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple

All politicians should get it after health care personnel and other essential people

Anyone know if Waukesha Memorial has gotten vaccines yet? If not, means 3 out of the top 6 with COVID+ patients in Wisconsin did not get vaccines yet.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 20, 2020, 06:24:45 PM
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people??  have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet?  didn't think so.  she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk.  all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries.  stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm in the camp that everyone in congress and the white house (incoming and outgoing) should get it because we want a functioning government - and lets face it - several in government are old enough to be "at risk".  So AOC should get it for the exact same reason everyone in congress should continue to wear a mask.

Plus, if they all are vaccinated no reason they can't be back in session working for us in 28 days! 

Now, i also want a functioning healthcare system - so yes, lines need to be drawn for our priorities, but federal government will probably receive far less than 1% of the initial 20 million doses (200k would be 1%).  If it's significantly over that - we should be scrutinizing where things are going.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 20, 2020, 06:26:11 PM
You realize that all members of Congress are getting it right?  Even those who denied it was a big deal just a few months ago.

He does not realize that, no.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 20, 2020, 06:27:40 PM
He does not realize that, no.

I would actually bet he does know it
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 20, 2020, 06:30:39 PM
I would actually bet he does know it

Nah. People read a headline, irrationally react and make a fool of themselves, then get the information that’s easily available to everyone and go in hiding.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 20, 2020, 06:32:54 PM
Nah. People read a headline, irrationally react and make a fool of themselves, then get the information that’s easily available to everyone and go in hiding.

I've read that part - but are there any congress idiots rejecting a vaccine? 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2020, 07:29:40 PM
AOC definitely needs a shot..., hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 20, 2020, 07:42:37 PM
That's ok, rocket, I had the exact same thought about Pence and Mrs. Pence.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 20, 2020, 07:49:05 PM
You realize that all members of Congress are getting it right?  Even those who denied it was a big deal just a few months ago.
Fox didn't tell him that, so how could he possibly know?

Pavlov (Fox)  has trained the dogs to slaver when the AOC bell is rung, that's as far as their "thinking" goes.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 20, 2020, 08:24:43 PM
Fox didn't tell him that, so how could he possibly know?

Pavlov (Fox)  has trained the dogs to slaver when the AOC bell is rung, that's as far as their "thinking" goes.

I'm all for making fun of news sources, but fox actually covered the fact that Congress is getting them:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/aoc-coronavirus-vaccine-social-media-congress-pfizer
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on December 20, 2020, 08:27:44 PM
AOC definitely needs a shot..., hey?

Didn’t think AOC was your type of gal.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 20, 2020, 08:45:14 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm in the camp that everyone in congress and the white house (incoming and outgoing) should get it because we want a functioning government - and lets face it - several in government are old enough to be "at risk".  So AOC should get it for the exact same reason everyone in congress should continue to wear a mask.

Plus, if they all are vaccinated no reason they can't be back in session working for us in 28 days! 

Now, i also want a functioning healthcare system - so yes, lines need to be drawn for our priorities, but federal government will probably receive far less than 1% of the initial 20 million doses (200k would be 1%).  If it's significantly over that - we should be scrutinizing where things are going.

  i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking.  initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics.  showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUDPT on December 20, 2020, 09:37:26 PM
  i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking.  initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics.  showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families.

Agree, just after the essential workers who are begging for one and have been “in the face” of COVID patient since April (like me).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 20, 2020, 10:41:43 PM
  i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking.  initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics.  showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families.

So did you make your original post while knowing all of congress was receiving the vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 21, 2020, 07:07:56 AM
The good news is that there isn't a single file line so this is all seriously silly.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 21, 2020, 07:36:05 AM
  i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking.  initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics.  showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families.
So let's see...
1) You don't want to own up to the fact that you had no idea what you were talking about, per usual
2) You harped on AOC, but it it was other people's partisan politics that were to blame.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 21, 2020, 09:02:37 AM
Just..... f'ing..... stop.     Get the vaccine.     
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 21, 2020, 10:29:09 AM
So let's see...
1) You don't want to own up to the fact that you had no idea what you were talking about, per usual
2) You harped on AOC, but it it was other people's partisan politics that were to blame.


rocket being rocket per usual.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 21, 2020, 11:08:13 AM
Lighten up guys.

Low hanging fruit.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 21, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
I've read that part - but are there any congress idiots rejecting a vaccine?

One that should turn a few people into a pretzel. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 21, 2020, 08:13:29 PM
Nah. People read a headline, irrationally react and make a fool of themselves, then get the information that’s easily available to everyone and go in hiding.

  "...go in hiding." ??  umm, no.  so many of the responses are not worth dignifying and certainly not worth the bump.     
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 21, 2020, 08:24:59 PM
  "...go in hiding." ??  umm, no.  so many of the responses are not worth dignifying and certainly not worth the bump.     

Dude you routinely are shown to parrot certain news sources that are easily debunked. We can’t help that you’ve lost your dignity as well.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 22, 2020, 05:11:51 AM
One that should turn a few people into a pretzel.

Are you referring to this?

https://www.businessinsider.com/ilhan-omar-wont-get-covid-19-vaccine-immediately-2020-12
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 22, 2020, 05:31:46 AM
Vatican OKs Receiving COVID-19 Vaccines, Even If Research Involved Fetal Tissue

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/12/21/948806643/vatican-oks-receiving-covid-19-vaccines-even-if-research-involved-fetal-tissue

The Vatican says that it's "morally acceptable" to receive a vaccination for COVID-19, even if the vaccine's research or production involved using cell lines derived from aborted fetuses, given the "grave danger" of the pandemic.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office charged with promoting and defending church morals and traditions, said in a document released Monday that "when ethically irreproachable Covid-19 vaccines are not available ... it is morally acceptable to receive Covid-19 vaccines that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses in their research and production process."

Pope Francis approved the text on Thursday, Vatican News reported.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocket ALM surgeon on December 22, 2020, 08:44:19 AM
Dude you routinely are shown to parrot certain news sources that are easily debunked. We can’t help that you’ve lost your dignity as well.

  what makes you and your cabal of sycophants think you are right?    i have a viewpoint, you have yours.  right/wrong?  so what are you to debunk?  AOC got the vaccine, right?  my point was for her to advertise it,  was beneficial only in that it may remove some of the political stigma they previously attached to it.  as for AOC and the rest of the pols to be getting it before many other "more essential" people?   many on both sides of the aisle felt they should be allowing other more essential people to get the vaccine before them.  who's wrong?  what do you think...or, what have your such reliable sources told you to think?

so tell me wise one, what are the sanctified "news sources" we all need to be enlightened by?  you know, the ones that aren't so "easily debunked".  i know who your sources are, and they've been factually wrong and/or inconsistent as much as any, depending on your viewpoint of course.  things can be spun many ways. 

  if i've lost my dignity in the eyes of "your people" then i know that i must doing alright-thank you for that 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 22, 2020, 08:47:20 AM
  what makes you and your cabal of sycophants think you are right?    i have a viewpoint, you have yours.  right/wrong?  so what are you to debunk?  AOC got the vaccine, right?  my point was for her to advertise it,  was beneficial only in that it may remove some of the political stigma they previously attached to it.  as for AOC and the rest of the pols to be getting it before many other "more essential" people?   many on both sides of the aisle felt they should be allowing other more essential people to get the vaccine before them.  who's wrong?  what do you think...or, what have your such reliable sources told you to think?

so tell me wise one, what are the sanctified "news sources" we all need to be enlightened by?  you know, the ones that aren't so "easily debunked".  i know who your sources are, and they've been factually wrong and/or inconsistent as much as any, depending on your viewpoint of course.  things can be spun many ways. 

  if i've lost my dignity in the eyes of "your people" then i know that i must doing alright-thank you for that

Where was your faux outrage when Pence got the vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 22, 2020, 08:52:36 AM
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket.  I know he said something, which he said he thought about more... but maybe when someone regrets their previous stance we should be more encouraging rather than stepping on their neck.  We all knew what response it would elicit. 

Something we could all do better on this board is saying, "yep I was wrong" and then people letting that be.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 22, 2020, 09:34:55 AM
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket.  I know he said something, which he said he thought about more... but maybe when someone regrets their previous stance we should be more encouraging rather than stepping on their neck.  We all knew what response it would elicit. 

Something we could all do better on this board is saying, "yep I was wrong" and then people letting that be.

You're wrong!

(yep I was wrong to say that)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 22, 2020, 11:27:03 AM
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket.  I know he said something, which he said he thought about more... but maybe when someone regrets their previous stance we should be more encouraging rather than stepping on their neck.  We all knew what response it would elicit. 

Something we could all do better on this board is saying, "yep I was wrong" and then people letting that be.

Only if he admits he didn't know all politicians were getting the vaccine before he posted about AOC. Which he didn't do
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2020, 07:03:53 PM
Only if he admits he didn't know all politicians were getting the vaccine before he posted about AOC. Which he didn't do

Are all politicians going to the head of the line to get the vaccine? It’s true they’re eligible, but aren’t some of them showing a bit of principle and waiting for their age group to be called?


Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 22, 2020, 07:13:59 PM
Are all politicians going to the head of the line to get the vaccine? It’s true they’re eligible, but aren’t some of them showing a bit of principle and waiting for their age group to be called?

Is that really “showing a bit of principle?” I mean, I have a heart condition that I don’t consider to be serious (nor does my doctor), but it puts me in the “at risk” category, which bumps me up past a lot of people who are more than likely more “at risk” than I am. I’ll be able to get it before my parents, who are both in their 60s (but neither have health risks). They’re probably overall more “at risk” than I am. But I’m not going to pass on getting the vaccine when I first can. If I could take one of them in and say, “I’m passing my vaccine along to them!” Sure I’d do that. But that’s not really how it works. And by getting vaccinated when I can, I’m making those around me safer.

Getting vaccinated when you can IS “showing a bit of principle.”
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on December 22, 2020, 08:05:19 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 22, 2020, 08:06:40 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?

She's part of a group where all members have access regardless of "at-risk" variables.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 22, 2020, 08:21:56 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?



Stupidity, Marxist-Leninist, Anti-American, Anti- Semitic, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 22, 2020, 08:26:55 PM


Stupidity, Marxist-Leninist, Anti-American, Anti- Semitic, hey?

What is the point of this. 

AOC?  Rubio?  Others. 

What about Ohmar.  Or others. What do you label them.

Weird.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 22, 2020, 08:27:39 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?

I have no idea what I’m talking about, but hey, I’m JUST ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT STUFF I HAVENT READ ABOUT.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 22, 2020, 08:27:56 PM
Not weird, considering the source, ai'na?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 22, 2020, 08:31:22 PM
What is the point of this. 

AOC?  Rubio?  Others. 

What about Ohmar.  Or others. What do you label them.

Weird.


What’s ironic is that his words say way more about him than about AOC.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 22, 2020, 09:23:15 PM
She's part of a group where all members have access regardless of "at-risk" variables.

435 + 100 members
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 22, 2020, 10:42:42 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?

Congress, government, get your ass back to the damn office and do some work for us group!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 22, 2020, 11:05:57 PM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: “Don’t trust the vaccine that’s coming! It’s the ‘Trump Vaccine’ - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn’t take it, it’s too dangerous!!

Now that the election is over, of course they’re changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, “The chickens have come home to roost!”

So Democrats are responsible for undermining the trust in vaccines...

Are all politicians going to the head of the line to get the vaccine? It’s true they’re eligible, but aren’t some of them showing a bit of principle and waiting for their age group to be called?

Ohh...I get it now, it was the long play.  Undermine public trust so you can get it first!  Wait.  That's not what you were saying.

Are they restoring public trust?  Or stealing vaccines?

As you know, my opinion is all of congress and white house (incoming and outgoing for both) should get it so we can have a continuation of government, and they get be back in session face to face in Jan.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 06:35:52 AM


Stupidity, Marxist-Leninist, Anti-American, Anti- Semitic, hey?

Always on brand, aren't ya, big boy.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 23, 2020, 07:44:32 AM
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket.


He routinely posts bullsh*t that's easily swatted down.  If he doesn't want to be "pushed down," he should post stuff that is more than a simple talking point.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 23, 2020, 07:46:44 AM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?

"I am going to reach up on this issue, but decided to ask a politically loaded question on a board instead."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 23, 2020, 07:55:14 AM
  what makes you and your cabal of sycophants think you are right?    i have a viewpoint, you have yours.

A viewpoint?  You posted something pavlovian about AOC without understanding that every member of Congress was offered the shot.  Some have said yes, others have said no. I mean, Kevin McCarthy got it as well.  Why aren't you mocking him "going to the front of the line?"

That's not a viewpoint.  That is an accurate fact.  But instead of doing a bit of Googling and reading to understand more of the issue, you post something parroted elsewhere, then pass it off as "fact" or a "viewpoint."
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 23, 2020, 08:36:39 AM

As you know, my opinion is all of congress and white house (incoming and outgoing for both) should get it so we can have a continuation of government, and they get be back in session face to face in Jan.



Agree completely. Every member of Congress, the White House, and other high-level governmental employees (federal AND state) should be in the first wave with front-line providers.

To me, the reason is twofold: (1) to get back to the day-to-day running of our country ASAP, and (2) to serve our national security interests, as healthy leaders are essential to crisis management.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 23, 2020, 09:27:01 AM

Agree completely. Every member of Congress, the White House, and other high-level governmental employees (federal AND state) should be in the first wave with front-line providers.

To me, the reason is twofold: (1) to get back to the day-to-day running of our country ASAP, and (2) to serve our national security interests, as healthy leaders are essential to crisis management.

And (3) we don't need anymore confusion or "room for opinion" on whether to take the vaccine or when is the most moral time to take the vaccine.  Regardless of intention, anyone in leadership not taking the vaccine immediately when offered clouds what should be unanimous messaging for their own political gain and to the detriment of the country.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 23, 2020, 10:04:10 AM
And (3) we don't need anymore confusion or "room for opinion" on whether to take the vaccine or when is the most moral time to take the vaccine.  Regardless of intention, anyone in leadership not taking the vaccine immediately when offered clouds what should be unanimous messaging for their own political gain and to the detriment of the country.

This is where I am at.  I’m even more concerned if any go down the antivax talking points or now create a brand new lens to judge people. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 23, 2020, 10:08:11 AM
This is where I am at.  I’m even more concerned if any go down the antivax talking points or now create a brand new lens to judge people. 

Exactly. If my health care provider calls me tomorrow and says I am eligible to take the vaccine, I am not going to engage in some moral back and forth about whether or not I am worthy at this point in time. I am going to take it because I trust the process and by taking it I am helping society recover.

But no. Instead of being seen as progress for the sake of the common good, it’s been politicized.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on December 23, 2020, 10:18:26 AM
Exactly. If my health care provider calls me tomorrow and says I am eligible to take the vaccine, I am not going to engage in some moral back and forth about whether or not I am worthy at this point in time. I am going to take it because I trust the process and by taking it I am helping society recover.

But no. Instead of being seen as progress for the sake of the common good, it’s been politicized.

agree 100%
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 10:46:59 AM

He routinely posts bullsh*t that's easily swatted down.  If he doesn't want to be "pushed down," he should post stuff that is more than a simple talking point.

Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies.  Rocky's approach was positive.  That's all I'm saying.  Negative slapping (I'm extremely guilty of this) just pushes people into corners or back into the open arms of what they're used to.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Skatastrophy on December 23, 2020, 10:58:53 AM
Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies.  Rocky's approach was positive.  That's all I'm saying.  Negative slapping (I'm extremely guilty of this) just pushes people into corners or back into the open arms of what they're used to.

"I have extremist viewpoints because someone on the MU message boards wasn't nice when he explained how wrong I am"
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 23, 2020, 11:00:40 AM
Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies.  Rocky's approach was positive.  That's all I'm saying.  Negative slapping (I'm extremely guilty of this) just pushes people into corners or back into the open arms of what they're used to.

What if those people aren't repeating lies but intentionally trolling?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 23, 2020, 12:33:46 PM
And (3) we don't need anymore confusion or "room for opinion" on whether to take the vaccine or when is the most moral time to take the vaccine.  Regardless of intention, anyone in leadership not taking the vaccine immediately when offered clouds what should be unanimous messaging for their own political gain and to the detriment of the country.


Excellent point.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 12:58:40 PM
What if those people aren't repeating lies but intentionally trolling?

Oh, he's not trolling.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 01:01:13 PM
"I have extremist viewpoints because someone on the MU message boards wasn't nice when he explained how wrong I am"

Yeah, that isn't what i was alluding to at all.  If you want to have these folks never wake up, keep treating them like crap.  You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 23, 2020, 02:22:17 PM
Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies. 
While it is a nice, optimistic thought, it simply ain't happening. There is no rehabbing these people who so gladly swallow easily proven lies and will fight tooth and nail to defend those lies in the face of every fact.

It would be nice if it were possible, but sadly it isn't.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 02:29:08 PM
While it is a nice, optimistic thought, it simply ain't happening. There is no rehabbing these people who so gladly swallow easily proven lies and will fight tooth and nail to defend those lies in the face of every fact.

It would be nice if it were possible, but sadly it isn't.

I disagree.    I don't think Biden is perfect.   I could do 500 words on votes of his I disagree with.    But, if he keeps the 'Uncle Joe' thing going and stays focused on common sense solutions and pragmatism, there is a percentage of people whom you write off who will recognize competence and realize that they were in a MAGA haze.       What percentage?   I don't know.    But enough.   Not all.   There are closed minded extremists of both ilks who will never be won over by common sense.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 02:38:19 PM
I disagree.    I don't think Biden is perfect.   I could do 500 words on votes of his I disagree with.    But, if he keeps the 'Uncle Joe' thing going and stays focused on common sense solutions and pragmatism, there is a percentage of people whom you write off who will recognize competence and realize that they were in a MAGA haze.       What percentage?   I don't know.    But enough.   Not all.   There are closed minded extremists of both ilks who will never be won over by common sense.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 23, 2020, 03:46:17 PM
Exactly.
Good luck to you both. It's an extremely Quixotic endeavor IMO. Sure, there are people in the middle who might be swayed, but the MAGAs? Not a chance. They live for the lies they are told.

Biden could be the greatest President ever for the next four years and it will not sway people like guru, 4ever, or rocket one iota.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 03:52:26 PM
So you shouldn't do the right thing for the most people because it won't convince the hardest core of the opposition party?   Do the virtuous thing anyway.   Let the haters hate. 

FWIW, my driver, the UM alum with multiple degrees, is equally annoying, equally sanctimonious, equally wrong, from the left.   Feels like AOC and Bernie are sellouts.   Dude is annoying as hell, even though I love him like a brother.    Actively rooting for Biden to fail.    I tell him regularly there isn't a hair of difference between him and the MAGA on the pain in the ass divorced from reality spectrum.

So, do the virtuous, right thing and don't concern yourself with the fringes.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 23, 2020, 04:38:59 PM
Yeah, that isn't what i was alluding to at all.  If you want to have these folks never wake up, keep treating them like crap.  You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.


I have read a hundred articles and heard it on TV dozens of times that the left needs to reach out to trump supporters.

I have seen zero articles and zero comments on TV that trump supporters need to reach out to the left.

Until I do, they can all get screwed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 04:45:56 PM

I have read a hundred articles and heard it on TV dozens of times that the left needs to reach out to trump supporters.

I have seen zero articles and zero comments on TV that trump supporters need to reach out to the left.

Until I do, they can all get screwed.

I never said reach out.  I said when they reach out, don't spit in their face.  That's it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 23, 2020, 07:11:10 PM
I never said reach out.  I said when they reach out, don't spit in their face.  That's it.

Which one of them reached out?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 23, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
So you shouldn't do the right thing for the most people because it won't convince the hardest core of the opposition party?   Do the virtuous thing anyway.   Let the haters hate. 
What is virtuous about spending your time trying to convince people that will never be convinced? Why is the right thing to do to waste your time on people that revel in racism, misogyny, and hate? Nothing is going to change their minds. Good luck if you wish to spend your time trying to do so, but it isn't virtuous.

So, do the virtuous, right thing and don't concern yourself with the fringes.
They aren't the fringes. 70% of Republicans believe Trump's bullchit about a stolen election. 30% of Republicans believe in a conspiracy that Democrats run a pedophile ring that drinks the blood of children. Thirty. unnatural carnal knowledgeing. Percent.

More than 100 elected Republican Representatives are on record supporting overturning the Constitution to keep Trump in power. Yes, 100 Republican members of the House of Representatives have formally stated that are in favor of a coup and it has become so mainstream that people barely blink.

That's the "fringe" these days.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
If you lower yourself to their bat crap level, what exactly have you accomplished in the big picture and what have you done to yourself? Be the difference.   Virtue for virtue's sake. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: TSmith34 on December 23, 2020, 08:03:47 PM
If you lower yourself to their bat crap level, what exactly have you accomplished in the big picture and what have you done to yourself? Be the difference.
Well first of all, I don't think this statement has anything at all to do with the (in my opinion misguided) idea that reaching out to them is somehow virtuous.

More importantly, the whole point is that I haven't lowered myself to their level. I don't believe a secret cabal of Republicans drink the blood of children. I don't praise Nazis and Klansman as very fine people. I don't revel in white nationalists supporting my cause. I don't support putting children in cages and separating them from their parents in some cases forever. I don't insist it is my right to potentially kill my fellow Americans because I don't want to wear a strip of cloth.

All of these, and many more morally abhorrent positions are not fringe, they are vociferously promoted by the mainstream Republican party. So no, I haven't lowered myself to their batcrap level, and neither do I think it is virtuous to spend my time trying to convince people who not only believe these things, but revel in them.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2020, 09:14:24 PM
Great stuff on the vaccine.




Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 24, 2020, 07:40:35 AM
I am pleased that the government is purchasing another 100 million doses from Pfizer.    I expect there are still going to be supply chain issues and rollout challenges.    The logistics of something this charge are just so intricate and massive that there is no way to avoid it.    The notion that every adult who wants the vaccine will have it by June is heartening.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on December 24, 2020, 07:51:14 AM
If you lower yourself to their bat crap level, what exactly have you accomplished in the big picture and what have you done to yourself? Be the difference.   Virtue for virtue's sake.

Ok Tower, you’re the perfect picture of virtue.  You’ve been equally nasty on this board as Jockey, TSmith, etc..

Practice what you preach.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 24, 2020, 08:16:18 AM
Only to you.   For very specific reasons.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on December 24, 2020, 08:31:17 AM
Only to you.   For very specific reasons.

Ahh, as long as it’s only directed at me then it’s ok.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: SERocks on December 24, 2020, 08:42:54 AM
Ahh, as long as it’s only directed at me then it’s ok.

We should start a poll but I suspect a lot would agree.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 24, 2020, 09:01:42 AM
Ahh, as long as it’s only directed at me then it’s ok.

I assumed you were Chico's.    If you are, then I don't owe you an apology.   If you aren't, I apologize for wrongly assuming you were Chico.   But you were still wrong about the virus.       Although this martyrdom thing tilts the scale toward Chico. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pacearrow02 on December 24, 2020, 09:09:08 AM
I assumed you were Chico's.    If you are, then I don't owe you an apology.   If you aren't, I apologize for wrongly assuming you were Chico.   But your were still wrong about the virus.       Although this martyrdom thing tilts the scale toward Chico.

Like I’ve said before.  I’m not Chico
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 24, 2020, 09:11:59 AM
What's a chicos?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 24, 2020, 10:52:11 AM
Like I’ve said before.  I’m not Chico

Hoopaloop, then?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 24, 2020, 11:42:57 AM
Sad.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 25, 2020, 11:38:48 AM
Largest hospital system in the southeast cancels some employees' COVID-19 vaccinations because of reports that some jumped ahead in line.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article248078950.html?ac_cid=DM350921&ac_bid=-1049799944

Some at Atrium Health who were scheduled to get their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine next month will be delayed, following a controversy this week over non-medical employees being included in the first phase of vaccine distribution.

Officials at Atrium told the Observer on Thursday as many as 97 employees will have vaccination appointments canceled. Based on North Carolina health officials’ vaccine guidance published in October, those first in line should be “healthcare workers and medical first responders who are at high risk of exposure based on work duties or who are vital to the initial COVID-19 vaccine distribution.”

“I can assure you that the only people who have received vaccines by Atrium Health were categorized by (Phase) 1a...” Dr. Scott Rissmiller, Atrium’s executive vice president and chief physician executive, told the Observer. “The key is to get those most at risk and those who are on the frontlines risking their lives for the community. We get the vaccine to them so they can care for those who need it as others are waiting.”


FYI, my wife is a pediatric RN at this hospital. She does not directly work with COVID-19 patients most of the time. She is part of the hospital's third group scheduled to get the vaccine. Her appointment for the first injection is for 2 weeks from now.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 26, 2020, 10:29:35 AM
Largest hospital system in the southeast cancels some employees' COVID-19 vaccinations because of reports that some jumped ahead in line.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article248078950.html?ac_cid=DM350921&ac_bid=-1049799944

Some at Atrium Health who were scheduled to get their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine next month will be delayed, following a controversy this week over non-medical employees being included in the first phase of vaccine distribution.

Officials at Atrium told the Observer on Thursday as many as 97 employees will have vaccination appointments canceled. Based on North Carolina health officials’ vaccine guidance published in October, those first in line should be “healthcare workers and medical first responders who are at high risk of exposure based on work duties or who are vital to the initial COVID-19 vaccine distribution.”

“I can assure you that the only people who have received vaccines by Atrium Health were categorized by (Phase) 1a...” Dr. Scott Rissmiller, Atrium’s executive vice president and chief physician executive, told the Observer. “The key is to get those most at risk and those who are on the frontlines risking their lives for the community. We get the vaccine to them so they can care for those who need it as others are waiting.”


FYI, my wife is a pediatric RN at this hospital. She does not directly work with COVID-19 patients most of the time. She is part of the hospital's third group scheduled to get the vaccine. Her appointment for the first injection is for 2 weeks from now.

Not this hospital, but I know a bunch of health care workers from around the country that never see patients, and work from home, magically already haven got the vaccine.

Also, even some family members of health care workers.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 26, 2020, 10:51:10 AM
Not this hospital, but I know a bunch of health care workers from around the country that never see patients, and work from home, magically already haven got the vaccine.

Also, even some family members of health care workers.


Yep. And on the flip side, health care workers with direct patient contact are waiting longer because of this and other line-jumpers or distribution issues. I know a few who have been told their appointments have been pushed back because of a variety of issues.

Disappointing, but not terribly surprising.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 26, 2020, 06:15:26 PM
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher.  The email said teachers have been named as front line workers.  Email gave a list of places she can go receive. 
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Marquette Fan on December 26, 2020, 06:42:31 PM
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher.  The email said teachers have been named as front line workers.  Email gave a list of places she can go receive. 
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.

I know there was some talk of wanting this designation for Wisconsin teachers so they could get vaccines sooner but I don't think anything has happened here for that yet.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 26, 2020, 07:01:19 PM
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher.  The email said teachers have been named as front line workers.  Email gave a list of places she can go receive. 
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.

Depends on the state. Some states have given them priority after police/fireman etc.

Some are giving them zero priority.

Some don't even give police/fireman a priority (absolutely ridiculous).

The CDC only gives guidance, and they guided that teachers should be a priority, states decide what they will actually do.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 26, 2020, 07:07:32 PM
Wait, there isn't a coherent national strategy?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 26, 2020, 07:16:32 PM
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher.  The email said teachers have been named as front line workers.  Email gave a list of places she can go receive. 
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.


There is talk of doing that in MN, but I am not sure if they made an official decision. My wife will definitely get one if it’s allowed.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 26, 2020, 07:19:52 PM
Wait, there isn't a coherent national strategy?

trump is working on it this weekend. IF he has time after he gets off the golf course.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 07:44:15 PM
Wait, there isn't a coherent national strategy?

Up to the states to plan/carry out distribution. And that’s the way it should be. One size doesn’t fit all. In Florida, the governor has moved the priority cut off from 75 to 65. We have a lot of seniors here and he (reasonably IMO) thinks a 74 year old (or a 66 year old) should get it before a healthy 24 year old who works in a grocery store. Slight departure from guidelines I’ve seen but given Florida’s demographic it makes sense.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 26, 2020, 07:46:03 PM
Up to the states to plan/carry out distribution. And that’s the way it should be. One size doesn’t fit all. In Florida, the governor has moved the priority cut off from 75 to 65. We have a lot of seniors here and he (reasonably IMO) thinks a 74 year old (or a 66 year old) should get it before a healthy 24 year old who works in a grocery store. Slight departure from guidelines I’ve seen but given Florida’s demographic it makes sense.

Why does he believe this.  Does he have better information?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: BLM on December 26, 2020, 07:47:24 PM
Up to the states to plan/carry out distribution. And that’s the way it should be. One size doesn’t fit all. In Florida, the governor has moved the priority cut off from 75 to 65. We have a lot of seniors here and he (reasonably IMO) thinks a 74 year old (or a 66 year old) should get it before a healthy 24 year old who works in a grocery store. Slight departure from guidelines I’ve seen but given Florida’s demographic it makes sense.

What makes the 74 (or 66) year old in Montana any less at risk than the 74 (or 66) year old in Florida? Or the 24 year old grocery store worker in Montana any more at risk than the 24 year old grocery worker in Florida? Seems like that would be something that fits all the states.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 09:44:39 PM
Why does he believe this.  Does he have better information?

I assume he has the same information as the CDC - just a little more common sense. That information shows that Covid is most lethal to those 75+. Next at greatest risk are those 65-74. So, after long term care facility workers and staff, health care workers with direct patient contact and people hospitals deem extremely vulnerable to Covid 19 are vaccinated it goes to the general population. Here, that will be seniors 65+ (rather than those 75+) followed by those deemed essential workers (firemen, school teachers, grocery clerks, etc). If the object is less deaths, moving the 65-74 group up in priority certainly makes sense. He’s an “essential worker”, of course, but will wait in line until the most vulnerable have been served. Good for him.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 26, 2020, 09:52:23 PM
The cynic in me believes that DeSantis is only concerned with how the seniors vote. The fact that he made this announcement in The Villages is very telling.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 09:54:14 PM
What makes the 74 (or 66) year old in Montana any less at risk than the 74 (or 66) year old in Florida? Or the 24 year old grocery store worker in Montana any more at risk than the 24 year old grocery worker in Florida? Seems like that would be something that fits all the states.

Good point, Wades. The Florida plan makes more sense in all states, but given our population it will save more lives (by sheer numbers and %) here than most other places. So, even more essential in Florida than Montana would be a better way to put it.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 26, 2020, 09:59:22 PM
I assume he has the same information as the CDC - just a little more common sense. That information shows that Covid is most lethal to those 75+. Next at greatest risk are those 65-74. So, after long term care facility workers and staff, health care workers with direct patient contact and people hospitals deem extremely vulnerable to Covid 19 are vaccinated it goes to the general population. Here, that will be seniors 65+ (rather than those 75+) followed by those deemed essential workers (firemen, school teachers, grocery clerks, etc). If the object is less deaths, moving the 65-74 group up in priority certainly makes sense. He’s an “essential worker”, of course, but will wait in line until the most vulnerable have been served. Good for him.

So he’s smarter or has better judgement than the cdc in your opinion. Look I am not debating order. Everyone has to determine the rollout thanks to our system. But to exalt a governor points to something unclear as to why FL is different. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 10:05:06 PM
The cynic in me believes that DeSantis is only concerned with how the seniors vote. The fact that he made this announcement in The Villages is very telling.

The cynic in me believes that there’s a political consideration in every one of their utterances. If they were altruists they never would have become politicians in the first place. His motives are his motives - I don’t know and couldn’t care less. The policy is what I care about. It’s a departure from what the CDC is recommending and IMO a sensible one that will save lives. Isn’t that what we’re trying to do?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 10:20:54 PM
So he’s smarter or has better judgement than the cdc in your opinion. Look I am not debating order. Everyone has to determine the rollout thanks to our system. But to exalt a governor points to something unclear as to why FL is different.


I’m not “exalting” anyone. But I do, I guess, exalt the fact that there are some people who haven’t completely abdicated basic judgement and common sense to government agencies because they are manned by “experts”. Listen to them, sure. But are they above being questioned? Are they speaking ex cathedral? C’mon, Frenns - you know better than that.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 27, 2020, 05:44:48 AM

I’m not “exalting” anyone. But I do, I guess, exalt the fact that there are some people who haven’t completely abdicated basic judgement and common sense to government agencies because they are manned by “experts”. Listen to them, sure. But are they above being questioned? Are they speaking ex cathedral? C’mon, Frenns - you know better than that.

Nm

Sorry for the diversion. 

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 27, 2020, 06:46:23 AM
The cynic in me believes that there’s a political consideration in every one of their utterances. If they were altruists they never would have become politicians in the first place. His motives are his motives - I don’t know and couldn’t care less. The policy is what I care about. It’s a departure from what the CDC is recommending and IMO a sensible one that will save lives. Isn’t that what we’re trying to do?

When you stop caring about the motives of people’s actions, methinks you might need some introspection.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 07:32:26 AM
When you stop caring about the motives of people’s actions, methinks you might need some introspection.

When you stop listening to common sense, life saving ideas because of a political bias that you (in your infinite wisdom) think “might” be self serving, methinks you might need more than some introspection.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 27, 2020, 07:45:58 AM
When you stop listening to common sense, life saving ideas because of a political bias that you (in your infinite wisdom) think “might” be self serving, methinks you might need more than some introspection.

Did you notice, I didn’t attack DeSantis’s plan, it could very well be the right one.  I’m not an infectious disease expert, but my point was, you said you didn’t care about his motives...they could self-serving, self-less, my guess is probably somewhere in the middle.

 I just think it’s a slippery slope, that what I implied from your comment is well, I agree with what xxx politician said, so I don’t care what their motives are and in the end it doesn’t really matter, because I think they’re right.

Honest question, do you question the motives of politicians you disagree with?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on December 27, 2020, 08:01:42 AM
I assume he has the same information as the CDC - just a little more common sense. That information shows that Covid is most lethal to those 75+. Next at greatest risk are those 65-74. So, after long term care facility workers and staff, health care workers with direct patient contact and people hospitals deem extremely vulnerable to Covid 19 are vaccinated it goes to the general population. Here, that will be seniors 65+ (rather than those 75+) followed by those deemed essential workers (firemen, school teachers, grocery clerks, etc). If the object is less deaths, moving the 65-74 group up in priority certainly makes sense. He’s an “essential worker”, of course, but will wait in line until the most vulnerable have been served. Good for him.

He has also said no essential workers like police, first responders, teachers have priority.

Oh, and he SAID a lot of things, but Florida has no real plan. Well, other than making sure all The Villages got their shots first. Wonder why that is a priority? Meanwhile my 96 yo WWII vet dad waits.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 27, 2020, 08:06:15 AM
He has also said no essential workers like police, first responders, teachers have priority.

Oh, and he SAID a lot of things, but Florida has no real plan. Well, other than making sure all The Villages got their shots first. Wonder why that is a priority? Meanwhile my 96 yo WWII vet dad waits.

That was my point earlier.  I don’t know the right order and a group of infectious disease experts got together and made a recommendation. Now everyone is making the “common sense calls”

Just feels like another step of ignoring the cdc.  Which has not really worked that well so far. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
That was my point earlier.  I don’t know the right order and a group of infectious disease experts got together and made a recommendation. Now everyone is making the “common sense calls”

Just feels like another step of ignoring the cdc.  Which has not really worked that well so far.

We know who Covid kills and who it doesn’t. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn’t make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but “because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so” isn’t a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 27, 2020, 09:18:27 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn’t. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn’t make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but “because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so” isn’t a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.

I don’t know.  Maybe you should research their logic rather than just shooting from the hip.

Everyone isn’t as lucky as we are and preventing community spread or controlling a pandemic is not just binary based on your or my hot take. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 27, 2020, 09:25:40 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn’t. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn’t make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but “because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so” isn’t a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.

Shouldn't there be a happy medium between at-risk patients and essential workforce so spread decreases?

Otherwise, the economy is going to suffer because we can't open up as quickly as we otherwise could. If you give all available vaccine to retirees, we're not opening up anytime soon.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 09:32:03 AM
That this is even debatable blows my mind.
I've felt that way for 10 months.  Or, in the spirit of the season, 'Welcome to the party, pal'.   

But I am going to assume we could endlessly debate that which neither of us sees as debatable.

Be safe, Lenny.   Get that vaccine as soon as you can.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 27, 2020, 11:30:17 AM
I have friends who winter in the Villages, so I hear a lot about what goes on there.  If we are already mad at the politicians who downplayed the virus and are getting vaccinated ahead of essential workers, we should be equally mad at the retirees down there who still insist on maskless gatherings and also downplayed the virus getting the vaccine ahead of essential workers.  Many people there take zero precautions and sneer at those who do.  But I suppose if it protects the grocery and other workers there to have the seniors get it first, then maybe there is a silver lining. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 12:02:01 PM
My wife has said she will take half of everything before she lets us move there.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 27, 2020, 01:24:09 PM
I have a friend in the Miami area who inherited her father’s house there. She rents it out for the winter, and otherwise they go there to golf. Every time she mentions maybe moving there because of the golf and all the clubs and activities, her husband is like, over my dead body.....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 27, 2020, 01:55:56 PM
My wife has said she will take half of everything before she lets us move there.








Take dat deel, kin. Ya kan allweys hook up wit a rich widow down der, hey?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 02:00:19 PM
Nope.   I would rather have her than be rich.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on December 27, 2020, 11:20:04 PM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn’t. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn’t make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but “because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so” isn’t a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.

Probably because they’re more important to society.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 28, 2020, 09:09:32 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn’t. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn’t make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but “because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so” isn’t a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.


During a pandemic that is killing some people, making others very sick, overwhelming our hospitals and spreading like wildfire, saving lives is a complex calculus involving (1) controlling the spread; (2) protecting those who care for the most severely affected, and (3) preventing the most vulnerable. The CDC has the most knowledge about how to balance all of these factors.

Sorry if this blows your mind.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 28, 2020, 10:12:16 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn’t. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn’t make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but “because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so” isn’t a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.

You're not thinking this through.  If our HCWs and other who are essential are getting sick from covid then they can't do their ESSENTIAL jobs.  You used the example of a 24 year old getting the vaccine over a 65 year old... well if the 65 year old is sitting home or masking and going to the store and NOT doing all the irresponsible crap they shouldn't be doing, then they have low risk.  Meanwhile the 24 year old nurse is doing the best she can, working overtime to care for the 65 year olds who are running around town, going to bars, and seeing family.  If she gets sick, it puts her family at risk, and she can't do her job to care for people.  THIS PUTS THE 65 YEAR OLD AT RISK IN A DIFFERENT, BUT MORE DEADLY WAY.

Not to mention there are a hell of a lot less essential workers than there are 65+ year olds in Florida.  The issue here ISN'T the potential for death, its the potential for health care and essential worker collapse.

DeSantis knows who votes in Florida, and that there are a lot more 65+ voters than there are essential workers.  He did simple math, period.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 28, 2020, 11:45:00 AM
Biden will invoke Defense Production Act to boost Covid vaccine production, advisor says
PUBLISHED MON, DEC 28 20209:41 AM ESTUPDATED MON, DEC 28 20209:56


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/28/biden-will-invoke-defense-production-act-to-boost-covid-vaccine-production-advisor-says.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 28, 2020, 12:05:25 PM
Biden will invoke Defense Production Act to boost Covid vaccine production, advisor says
PUBLISHED MON, DEC 28 20209:41 AM ESTUPDATED MON, DEC 28 20209:56


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/28/biden-will-invoke-defense-production-act-to-boost-covid-vaccine-production-advisor-says.html

That doesn’t make Biden a genius. Anyone with any intelligence at all would do the same. Hence, that is the reason it hasn’t been done.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 28, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
No, he's not.   Nor is he a miracle worker.    But he is actually going to make an effort and attempt to lead.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 28, 2020, 01:28:42 PM
No, he's not.   Nor is be a miracle worker.    But he is actually going to make an effort and attempt to lead.

Exactly. If he had been president last January, this country would be quite different.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 28, 2020, 02:02:14 PM
In Trump's defense (a phrase I don't invoke often), there was a lot we didn't know in January and February; even Fauci and other experts got some things wrong. And Trump actually was pretty engaged (for him, anyway). He did close off some of the travel from China, and he did buy into states shutting down in mid-March. One could argue that he should have acted more quickly, that he shouldn't have scrapped Obama's pandemic playbook and staff, that he should have been as honest with the American public as he was with Bob Woodward, etc, but he at least pretended the virus actually was a threat.

It was in mid-April that he fell off the rails. He encouraged thugs to protest violently against states that hadn't met his own guidelines. Then he sent Jared out on April 29 to declare victory over COVID-19. Then he started referring to the virus by racist names. Then he got wackier and wackier in regards to potential treatments/preventatives. Then he conducted a misinformation campaign against masks and social distancing. Then he resumed deadly super-spreader rallies.Then he said COVID-19 "affects virtually nobody." Etc, etc, etc.

Objectively, while Trump's response was flawed at first, at least he seemed willing to try to lead. It was in mid-April that the epic failure began, and more than 300K Americans have died since then. If we had an effective leader who cared about anybody but himself, how many of those lives might have been saved?

Ultimately, in addition to the deaths and sickness and jobs lost and businesses shuttered forever, his failure cost him the presidency.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 28, 2020, 10:03:17 PM
You're not thinking this through.  If our HCWs and other who are essential are getting sick from covid then they can't do their ESSENTIAL jobs.  You used the example of a 24 year old getting the vaccine over a 65 year old... well if the 65 year old is sitting home or masking and going to the store and NOT doing all the irresponsible crap they shouldn't be doing, then they have low risk.  Meanwhile the 24 year old nurse is doing the best she can, working overtime to care for the 65 year olds who are running around town, going to bars, and seeing family.  If she gets sick, it puts her family at risk, and she can't do her job to care for people.  THIS PUTS THE 65 YEAR OLD AT RISK IN A DIFFERENT, BUT MORE DEADLY WAY.

Not to mention there are a hell of a lot less essential workers than there are 65+ year olds in Florida.  The issue here ISN'T the potential for death, its the potential for health care and essential worker collapse.

DeSantis knows who votes in Florida, and that there are a lot more 65+ voters than there are essential workers.  He did simple math, period.

You’re misrepresenting. HCW are at the front of the line in Florida and in my area have already received the first dose. But the 22 year old grocery clerk and the 40 year old teacher (who have almost no chance of dying from Covid) will now wait in line behind those 65+ instead of those 75+. And those between 65 and 74 are in much greater danger of death than those younger.

I have 4 kids, ages 36, 37, 39 and 42. They have kids. None of them voted for Trump and (if eligible) none of them would have voted for DeSantis. Two are deemed essential workers. But they’re aware that their parents (ages 69 and 72) are much more vulnerable to Covid than they are. They would all give up their place in line for a senior and are very grateful that their (at greater risk) parents will get the vaccine more quickly because they live in Florida. I recall that when your parents were stuck on that cruise ship you were very concerned. Assuming they’re both 72,  do you think that should wait until 118 million have been vaccinated to get the shot? Based on CDC guidelines that was the New York Times estimate for me. There are evidently a hell of a lot more workers deemed essential than you think.


Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 11:19:13 PM
The line drawn for essential workers is ridiculous. My 39yr old sister and 68yr old mom are both getting vaccinated tomorrow because as nurses they're deemed essential... they run a medispa. Granted they did some volunteer work in clinics for a bit earlier on in the shut down but not anymore.

I don't know if every state is just saying "this person is a licensed medical professional of some sort so vaccinate them" but if so that's ridiculous and we could've done better.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 29, 2020, 08:59:18 AM
I hadn't noticed until now .. one of the triggers to be in the Phase 1c vaccine group?

Being a past or current smoker.

I guess I can stop trying to be obese now.  I smoked a few cigars years ago.  Or not, but who would know?

Maybe I'll buy a pack of Lucky's on the way to the vaccination, just to be safe.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 29, 2020, 09:22:15 AM
The line drawn for essential workers is ridiculous. My 39yr old sister and 68yr old mom are both getting vaccinated tomorrow because as nurses they're deemed essential... they run a medispa. Granted they did some volunteer work in clinics for a bit earlier on in the shut down but not anymore.

I don't know if every state is just saying "this person is a licensed medical professional of some sort so vaccinate them" but if so that's ridiculous and we could've done better.

I actually think the bolded is fine.  We just need to to do our best to get this as right as we can, and the red tape of "Are you a medical professional? Do you work in a REAL healthcare setting? If not would you consider working temporarily in a covid unit if we have a shortage?" and on and on isn't worth the delay just to reorder when two people get their doses.  Set your categories, work them through, and just hope you get it mostly right.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 29, 2020, 10:02:31 AM
You’re misrepresenting. HCW are at the front of the line in Florida and in my area have already received the first dose. But the 22 year old grocery clerk and the 40 year old teacher (who have almost no chance of dying from Covid) will now wait in line behind those 65+ instead of those 75+. And those between 65 and 74 are in much greater danger of death than those younger.

I have 4 kids, ages 36, 37, 39 and 42. They have kids. None of them voted for Trump and (if eligible) none of them would have voted for DeSantis. Two are deemed essential workers. But they’re aware that their parents (ages 69 and 72) are much more vulnerable to Covid than they are. They would all give up their place in line for a senior and are very grateful that their (at greater risk) parents will get the vaccine more quickly because they live in Florida. I recall that when your parents were stuck on that cruise ship you were very concerned. Assuming they’re both 72,  do you think that should wait until 118 million have been vaccinated to get the shot? Based on CDC guidelines that was the New York Times estimate for me. There are evidently a hell of a lot more workers deemed essential than you think.

I'm not misrepresenting.  I didn't say just HCW's either.  I said essential employees.  My parents got covid and were asymptomatic.  Furthermore, we discussed this, and had they not gotten covid they wouldn't put themselves before essential workers.  Their lives are barely affected by the virus.  Except for going on vacation outside of the US... which no one will be doing for the foreseeable future.  We need to vaccinate our HCWs, supply chain, and essential services workers asap.  When I say this, I don't mean the crazy crap that we have considered 'essential' over the last 9 months.  I'm talking about actually essential... like society breaks down without them.  If you want me to be specific, I can be.  But as a simple example, daycare teachers and teachers are absolutely essential.  If you vaccinate one of these people, you bring down the spread, and you take secure society.  People who IF they get sick cannot easily be replaced.  I'm talking disruption of society vs another month of grandma doing what she has been doing for the last 9 months. 

I'll use your example of a 40 year old teacher.  Teacher gets sick and school has to find a sub... except there isn't a pool for those right now.  So those 30 kids from that class don't have a teacher for a week or two.  Okay, so they stay home now?  Parent's need to find a place for those kids to stay.  I'm sure that a lot of people can find somewhere for their kid for a day or two, but two weeks off is financially crippling to a lot of families.  Especially at the drop of a hat.  So as a result, mom or dad has to stay home with the kid for a week or two while teacher recovers.  So now, how many people has one teacher getting sick affected?  Of course, no one dies, but there is probably another family that is slipping closer or deeper into poverty.  And we've made this decision so that grandma can get a hug?  I don't get it.  Where is your logic.  If grandma has been able to weather the storm for 9 months, and knows the techniques for making herself safe then why is she a priority?  Her chance of getting covid is low already.  So why rush her a vaccine?

Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first.  It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality.  You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now!  It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people.  What a total crock of sh!t.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on December 29, 2020, 10:37:51 AM
Some on here, and De Santis (and other governors) are trying to over-simplify the calculus on saving lives.

The best way to save lives is to stop the spread. The CDC closely examines which populations are contributing most to the spread. Those are the essential workers, who are unable to stay home and WFH.

If there is no spread their can't be deaths.

The best way to save lives is:

1. Mandate WFH if possible. Emphasize that those 65+ who have retired should be sheltering in place as best as possible.

2. Vaccinate all front-line health personnel, this should/must include police, firemen, EMTs. That must not include administrators, staff, etc., that work from home and have zero patient interaction.

3. Vaccinate all nursing home patients, or those requiring in home care, who are especially vulnerable to severe illness.

4. Vaccinate all other essential persons, e.g food industry, teachers, etc., that are being mandated to work in person regardless of health risks.

5. Vaccinate the rest of the population starting with most vulnerable first.

This strategy allows one to protect the elderly, provided they follow WFH and shelter in place rules, and stop the spread to begin with.

That CDC policy, both saves the most lives, and gets us out of this pandemic faster and with less impact on the economy. It requires those more at risk to ride this out at home, where they are safe for about 4 more months.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 29, 2020, 11:18:43 AM
I’m 65+, retired,  with no other high risk factors. I’d be pretty much good with that vaccine priority.
I might push employed 65+ people who cannot WFH into a category like essential workers,  though they might be there already.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 29, 2020, 11:46:21 AM
My 39yr old sister and 68yr old mom are both getting vaccinated tomorrow because as nurses they're deemed essential... they run a medispa.

Curious...what state?  This seems to be a crapshoot depending on state.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 29, 2020, 12:11:03 PM
Curious...what state?  This seems to be a crapshoot depending on state.

Arizona, I suppose in Scottsdale Botox and lasers are medical necessities
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 29, 2020, 12:15:12 PM
Instead of worrying so much about WHO gets vaccinated, how about worrying about HOW we get people vaccinated?

At the current pace, we are looking at close to a decade to get everyone vaccinated.

I realize we will replace a madman with a real president in 22 days (the coup attempt will fail), but we need to pick up the pace dramatically.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on December 29, 2020, 12:43:35 PM
Arizona, I suppose in Scottsdale Botox and lasers are medical necessities

You wouldnt want to see what happens to that place without them!!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 29, 2020, 12:55:23 PM
I hadn't noticed until now .. one of the triggers to be in the Phase 1c vaccine group?

Being a past or current smoker.

I guess I can stop trying to be obese now.  I smoked a few cigars years ago.  Or not, but who would know?

Maybe I'll buy a pack of Lucky's on the way to the vaccination, just to be safe.


Excellent. I breathed in scads of secondhand smoke from the 60s through the 80s, and we know that smoke doesn't become any less toxic just because someone else is holding the cigarette. Former smoker here.

I'm gonna go put on my parka and get in line!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 29, 2020, 12:59:46 PM

Some on here, and De Santis (and other governors) are trying to over-simplify the calculus on saving lives.

The best way to save lives is to stop the spread. The CDC closely examines which populations are contributing most to the spread. Those are the essential workers, who are unable to stay home and WFH.



Yep. I tried to emphasize the complexity of the task and the unique position of the CDC to best assess all the moving parts earlier, but my post went largely unnoticed.

Your post does an excellent job of fleshing out more of the details. Hopefully it will help more people understand...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 29, 2020, 01:22:12 PM
https://abc11.com/moderna-vaccine-side-effects-covid-19-fda-dr-shirley-chi/9083838/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 29, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
https://abc11.com/moderna-vaccine-side-effects-covid-19-fda-dr-shirley-chi/9083838/


It is 3 pts out of 30,000 and the filler is not identified. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 29, 2020, 02:13:24 PM
We were promised 20,000,000 vaccinations by Thursday.

We will barely be 10% of that.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 29, 2020, 02:27:30 PM
It is 3 pts out of 30,000 and the filler is not identified.

Got it. I won't share vaccine info any more.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2020, 07:00:12 PM
[quote author=Hards_Alumni link=topic=60399.msg1292309#msg1292309 date=1609257751

Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first.  It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality.  You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now!  It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people.  What a total crock of sh!t.
[/quote]


Hards

I started on the CBOE as a runner making $500 a month. Left the firm I worked for 6 years later, borrowed money from a bank to open a trading account, leased a seat and went to work for myself. I was barely 30 and already had one of four kids and a wife to support. Nothing was “handed” to me, and there were plenty of ups and downs. I’m grateful for all of them, but mostly for my family and the friends I made along the way. Your hatred of my (and your parent’s) generation puzzles me. Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t you given the family business to run by your parents? I would think gratitude rather than bitterness would be what you feel towards those boomers.

Re the Covid, this board has scores of posts on the horrendous death count. We know who it kills. Florida has a plan that will better protect those people - which I thought was the idea. I guess it’s not for you - off with their heads, death to the entitled!


Edit: I’m told you work in your in-laws family business, not your parent’s. Sorry for the misstatement but the point still stands.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 29, 2020, 07:18:55 PM
[quote author=Hards_Alumni link=topic=60399.msg1292309#msg1292309 date=1609257751

Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first.  It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality.  You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now!  It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people.  What a total crock of sh!t.



Hards

I started on the CBOE as a runner making $500 a month. Left the firm I worked for 6 years later, borrowed money from a bank to open a trading account, leased a seat and went to work for myself. I was barely 30 and already had one of four kids and a wife to support. Nothing was “handed” to me, and there were plenty of ups and downs. I’m grateful for all of them, but mostly for my family and the friends I made along the way. Your hatred of my (and your parent’s) generation puzzles me. Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t you given the family business to run by your parents? I would think gratitude rather than bitterness would be what you feel towards those boomers.

Re the Covid, this board has scores of posts on the horrendous death count. We know who it kills. Florida has a plan that will better protect those people - which I thought was the idea. I guess it’s not for you - off with their heads, death to the entitled!

Says the guy who says he doesn’t care about motive anymore, yet this new rule just by happenstance benefits YOU.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 29, 2020, 08:10:19 PM
Not sure where all the over-generalizations about and resentment toward Boomers is coming from. It’s a form of bigotry.

And I say the same about those who harp on Millennials. It’s stupid, unproductive and quite often wrong.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on December 29, 2020, 08:18:33 PM
Says the guy who says he doesn’t care about motive anymore, yet this new rule just by happenstance benefits YOU.


It’s high comedy from the Tap. Just bask in the egotism.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2020, 08:56:16 PM
Says the guy who says he doesn’t care about motive anymore, yet this new rule just by happenstance benefits YOU.

Do the 4000 black men freed due to the Prison Reform Bill have to oppose it on philosophical grounds because it benefits them? Is it logical to oppose a policy that makes sense just because you may benefit? Mean spirited nonsense.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2020, 09:01:13 PM
It’s high comedy from the Tap. Just bask in the egotism.

Sorry if I blew my own horn too loudly. But when Hards accused me of stealing his birthright I thought it was fair to set the record straight.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 29, 2020, 10:01:21 PM
Do the 4000 black men freed due to the Prison Reform Bill have to oppose it on philosophical grounds because it benefits them? Is it logical to oppose a policy that makes sense just because you may benefit? Mean spirited nonsense.

A 70 year old white dude using Black men as a straw man for a bullcrap argument.  Lenny, you went down a weird twisted path the last 10 months.  Congrats you can get a vaccine before my daughters teacher while she sits in front of computer for the next 5 months, but you and the Mrs can go to your Del Boca Vista clubhouse for happy hour 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

edit: no ban, just edited.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Hards_Alumni on December 30, 2020, 12:47:05 AM
[quote author=Hards_Alumni link=topic=60399.msg1292309#msg1292309 date=1609257751

Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first.  It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality.  You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now!  It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people.  What a total crock of sh!t.



Hards

I started on the CBOE as a runner making $500 a month. Left the firm I worked for 6 years later, borrowed money from a bank to open a trading account, leased a seat and went to work for myself. I was barely 30 and already had one of four kids and a wife to support. Nothing was “handed” to me, and there were plenty of ups and downs. I’m grateful for all of them, but mostly for my family and the friends I made along the way. Your hatred of my (and your parent’s) generation puzzles me. Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t you given the family business to run by your parents? I would think gratitude rather than bitterness would be what you feel towards those boomers.

Re the Covid, this board has scores of posts on the horrendous death count. We know who it kills. Florida has a plan that will better protect those people - which I thought was the idea. I guess it’s not for you - off with their heads, death to the entitled!


Edit: I’m told you work in your in-laws family business, not your parent’s. Sorry for the misstatement but the point still stands.

Odd that  you can read, but can't comprehend.  Reread my post, Lenny, and come back with a substantive argument.  You're being pedantic to disagree for disagreements sake.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Mutaman on December 30, 2020, 01:28:18 AM

Florida and the vaccination process

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/12/29/covid-vaccine-floridas-roll-out-seniors-gets-off-rocky-start/4067324001/
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on December 30, 2020, 07:30:24 AM
Florida and the vaccination process

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/12/29/covid-vaccine-floridas-roll-out-seniors-gets-off-rocky-start/4067324001/

Once again, our governor living up to his name, DeathSantis.
And the morons in our state will probably reelect him.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2020, 08:01:08 AM
Once again, our governor living up to his name, DeathSantis.
And the morons in our state will probably reelect him.

Poor implementation (at least initially) of a policy is his fault/responsibility. Doesn’t have anything to do with whether the policy itself is a good one.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on December 30, 2020, 08:30:52 AM
Poor implementation (at least initially) of a policy is his fault/responsibility. Doesn’t have anything to do with whether the policy itself is a good one.
While I agree with your point, he has shown incompetence on so many levels, why trust his policy?> My god, he has an uber driving conspiracy theorist heading up the information he is using to base his decisions on.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 30, 2020, 09:00:57 AM
Part of controlling the initial implementation of the vaccine is to build the infrastructure to administer large amounts of vaccine and control demand as for quite some time it will be in excess of supply.

It’s a nice headline though.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 30, 2020, 09:27:04 AM
Part of controlling the initial implementation of the vaccine is to build the infrastructure to administer large amounts of vaccine and control demand as for quite some time it will be in excess of supply.

It’s a nice headline though.

By the way FL isn’t alone.  All 50 states are doing their own thing and the feds are washing their hands of this as soon as the vaccine is ‘distributed’ according to both Pres and VP.  I hope the money in the CARES II act is enough to get this going but there clearly is going to be a looming problem in Jan/Feb when everyone wants their vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on December 30, 2020, 09:33:41 AM
My daughter, the occupational therapist in Maryland, got the first dose of the vaccine this morning.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on December 30, 2020, 09:36:32 AM
By the way FL isn’t alone.  All 50 states are doing their own thing and the feds are washing their hands of this as soon as the vaccine is ‘distributed’ according to both Pres and VP.  I hope the money in the CARES II act is enough to get this going but there clearly is going to be a looming problem in Jan/Feb when everyone wants their vaccine.

I’ll repeat myself again. Vaccines don’t end epidemics. Vaccinations do.

We have had more than enough time to coordinate a national vaccination policy. The killers in the WH and Vice President’s mansion simply don’t care if any of you live or die.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 30, 2020, 01:07:18 PM
By the way FL isn’t alone.  All 50 states are doing their own thing and the feds are washing their hands of this as soon as the vaccine is ‘distributed’ according to both Pres and VP.  I hope the money in the CARES II act is enough to get this going but there clearly is going to be a looming problem in Jan/Feb when everyone wants their vaccine.

Sad but true; the Trump administration has no interest in helping the states out on distribution. As a result, disagreements about prioritization are far less worrisome than the lack of resources for states to actually implement a distribution plan.

Hopefully, the Biden administration can quickly get the states what they need. If it doesn't, we all may still be wearing masks on the Fourth of July....

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on December 30, 2020, 01:38:19 PM
We're doing 1 million vaccines/week.

For 80% herd immunity that will take 10 years.

To get herd immunity by 6 months (the original federal timeline), we'd need 3.5 million vaccines per day.

(Numbers taken from CNN interview)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 30, 2020, 03:33:51 PM
We're doing 1 million vaccines/week.

For 80% herd immunity that will take 10 years.

To get herd immunity by 6 months (the original federal timeline), we'd need 3.5 million vaccines per day.

(Numbers taken from CNN interview)


Yep. States, hospitals and pharmacies are doing their best, but it's a monumental task that begs for centralized coordination and resources.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 30, 2020, 03:56:27 PM

Hopefully, the Biden administration can quickly get the states what they need. If it doesn't, we all may still be wearing masks on the Fourth of July....

Agree ... except who is "we"? Millions of Americans are proud mouth-breathers who scream "MAGA! Freedom!" whenever masks are mentioned.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Marquette Fan on December 30, 2020, 08:00:26 PM
I originally heard 500 vaccine doses had to be discarded after a human error resulting in them not being refrigerated properly at Aurora Medical Center-Grafton and thought that's not so great but yeah sh*t happens.  But I just read today that someone did this on purpose - what the heck?  They were fired of course and imagine they might face some charges:

https://www.fox6now.com/news/aurora-grafton-discarded-covid-19-vaccine-incident-was-intentional?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%20Manual&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3Jg2QAn2PzdAqAzqUzKULa0lUupKEhMpc8mPffai7kT7W4Z43g8GRdjro
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 30, 2020, 08:22:35 PM
I originally heard 500 vaccine doses had to be discarded after a human error resulting in them not being refrigerated properly at Aurora Medical Center-Grafton and thought that's not so great but yeah sh*t happens.  But I just read today that someone did this on purpose - what the heck?  They were fired of course and imagine they might face some charges:

https://www.fox6now.com/news/aurora-grafton-discarded-covid-19-vaccine-incident-was-intentional?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%20Manual&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3Jg2QAn2PzdAqAzqUzKULa0lUupKEhMpc8mPffai7kT7W4Z43g8GRdjro


That is absolutely appalling.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Marquette Fan on December 30, 2020, 08:26:08 PM

That is absolutely appalling.

It never occurred to me that someone would do this on purpose - how awful :(
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 30, 2020, 08:37:28 PM
I just read this on another site. I am speechless. It’s jaw-dropping really.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: reinko on December 30, 2020, 09:16:53 PM
It never occurred to me that someone would do this on purpose - how awful :(

Is it really?  I’m sure you know plenty of people like I do, who crowd themselves into bars, restaurants, and hosted big indoor holiday gatherings...essentially the same thing.

America - Eff Yeah!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Marquette Fan on December 31, 2020, 12:59:15 PM
Is it really?  I’m sure you know plenty of people like I do, who crowd themselves into bars, restaurants, and hosted big indoor holiday gatherings...essentially the same thing.

America - Eff Yeah!

Both are bad but I honestly never thought someone would do something like this on person and it's pretty awful in my opinion.  I guess maybe I'm naive to think that someone wouldn't do that though...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 31, 2020, 01:01:22 PM
Are they an anti vaxxer? Were they trying to take them for friends and family?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on December 31, 2020, 03:12:49 PM
The doses were left out to spoil, so they weren’t intended for friends and family,
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Eldon on December 31, 2020, 03:25:19 PM
Healthcare workers say 'no thanks' to the COVID vaccine:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-frontline-workers-refuse-covid-201555764.html
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on December 31, 2020, 04:44:49 PM
Healthcare workers say 'no thanks' to the COVID vaccine:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-frontline-workers-refuse-covid-201555764.html


I didn't expect 100% compliance, but this just blows my mind.

If it had been approved this past fall before the the safety data had been properly analyzed, I could have understood. I personally was concerned when they were talking approval before the election. But once the companies and NIH made it clear that they weren't going to rush the data analysis or strong-arm the DSMBs, I grew much more open-minded. And once the data were made public, I thought it would be a no-brainer for frontline workers.

This really gives me concern about what we'll see once we get past the 65+ and other high-risk groups.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on December 31, 2020, 06:00:41 PM
We've got some real effed-up dopes in this country.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: rocky_warrior on January 01, 2021, 04:40:02 AM
We've got some real effed-up dopes in this country.

Again, try to hold judgement. For example, I have an older sister in ohio that is an rn at a nursing home. I haven't talked to her yet, but she's already "survived" covid and I wouldn't be surprised if she declined a vaccine thinking that someone else might need "her dose" more.

The logistics have been a nightmare, and those forgoing doses might unwittingly be letting those go to waste (assuming better organization). But the truth is, unless you're directly connected to a hospital or elderly care facility there's not been much planning for this by the states (even though we'd hope otherwise).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on January 01, 2021, 09:06:36 AM
Again, try to hold judgement. For example, I have an older sister in ohio that is an rn at a nursing home. I haven't talked to her yet, but she's already "survived" covid and I wouldn't be surprised if she declined a vaccine thinking that someone else might need "her dose" more.

The logistics have been a nightmare, and those forgoing doses might unwittingly be letting those go to waste (assuming better organization). But the truth is, unless you're directly connected to a hospital or elderly care facility there's not been much planning for this by the states (even though we'd hope otherwise).

I wasn't speaking to any particular group of people, rocky. Obviously, your sister has an outstanding reason for making that decision.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on January 01, 2021, 09:07:49 AM
Sounds like quite a free-for-all shyte-show being run by DeSantis down in Florida:

TALLAHASSEE, FLA. Terry Beth Hadler was so eager to get a lifesaving COVID-19 vaccination that the 69-year-old piano teacher stood in line overnight in a parking lot with hundreds of other senior citizens.

She wouldn’t do it again.

Hadler said that she waited 14 hours and that a brawl nearly erupted before dawn on Tuesday when people cut in line outside the library in Bonita Springs, Florida, where officials were offering shots on a first-come, first-served basis to those 65 or older.

“I’m afraid that the event was a super-spreader,” she said. “I was petrified.”

The race to vaccinate millions of Americans is off to a slower, messier start than public health officials and leaders of the Trump administration’s Operation Warp Speed had expected.

Overworked, underfunded state public health departments are scrambling to patch together plans for administering vaccines. Counties and hospitals have taken different approaches, leading to long lines, confusion, frustration and jammed phone lines. A multitude of logistical concerns have complicated the process of trying to beat back the scourge that has killed over 340,000 Americans.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is asking for patience, noting the vaccine supply is limited.

“It may not be today for everyone, may not be next week. But over the next many weeks, as long as we continue getting the supply, you’re going to have the opportunity to get this,” he said Wednesday.


Come one, come all, get your shots! First come, first served! Stand in a super-spreader line for more than half a day! You finally got near the front of the line after 12, 13, 14 hours? Sorry ... we're out of the vaccine ... but come back next week, y'all! Standing in line for 12 hours in the sun is no problem for septuagenarians, anyhoo ... you ain't got nuthin' better to do!"
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warriors4ever on January 01, 2021, 09:13:42 AM
Maybe at least what’s happening in Florida with the roll-out will help other states come up with a better plan.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 01, 2021, 10:13:14 AM
Maybe at least what’s happening in Florida with the roll-out will help other states come up with a better plan.

Had the same thought.

That being said, I think the vaccine program will be fine once the logistics are sorted out. Just like the testing. It took too long to ramp up, but once it did, things have largely been fine.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 01, 2021, 10:41:03 AM
So far going very smoothly here.  The state has the highest level of utilization of allocated doses.  I haven’t looked into why it’s going well, but I know the local govt and health systems are working together and taking it seriously. 

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/ (https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/)
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on January 01, 2021, 10:42:17 AM
Well, everything happened so fast that there wasn't really time to come up with a plan.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on January 01, 2021, 11:26:04 AM
The Grafton pharmacist should be put in stocks in front of the village hall for everyone to throw curds and cabbage at for a week before going to prison.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 01, 2021, 11:42:38 AM
My old neighbors where I grew up in Connecticut live in Bonita Springs now. 

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on January 01, 2021, 11:45:52 AM
The Grafton pharmacist should be put in stocks in front of the village hall for everyone to throw curds and cabbage at for a week before going to prison.

I am good with that.    I might add hospital bed sheets from COVID patients as his toga.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on January 01, 2021, 11:47:56 AM
I am good with that.    I might add hospital bed sheets from COVID patients as his toga.

Covid patients should be allowed to cough in his face.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on January 01, 2021, 11:49:48 AM
Or he should have to go work the AFC homes for unleash Diener.   
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on January 01, 2021, 01:18:46 PM
So far going very smoothly here.  The state has the highest level of utilization of allocated doses.  I haven’t looked into why it’s going well, but I know the local govt and health systems are working together and taking it seriously. 

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/ (https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/)


I think the underlined is a good part of the reason things are going smoothly there. I don't know how well the local government and health systems are working together in FL, but DeSantis has shown a history of stepping in and overruling local actions by mayors and health departments, so I can imagine they're unclear about who is in charge and reluctant to get overruled (again).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on January 01, 2021, 08:42:02 PM
The COVID-19 vaccination process is already pretty much a disaster. Romney was right today in saying that we have failed, with the easiest part of the process (frontline workers and long-term care).

You have many entities blatantly violating the priority lists. You have each state doing their own thing for political reasons, you have people camping outside hoping and praying to get a vaccine, and all this is in the easiest part of the vaccination roll out.

What happens when more become available, and there is still no orderly plan. Someone is going to end up being shot camping out in lines fighting over who gets a vaccine.

Not to mention that we have only vaccinated around 20% of the goal amount to this point. All that with ample supply sitting in warehouses.

Not a surprise that this is a failure so far, but the magnitude of the ineptitude so far is blinding.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on January 01, 2021, 09:06:09 PM
Well said, forget
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on January 01, 2021, 09:06:19 PM

Not a surprise that this is a failure so far, but the magnitude of the ineptitude so far is blinding.



You could say that about almost any part of our COVID response so far. Messaging, PPE acquisition, testing, contact tracing, coordination of lockdowns. The only real success has been vaccine development...so of course we have to screw up the distribution. Ugh...
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU82 on January 01, 2021, 09:37:23 PM

You could say that about almost any part of our COVID response so far. Messaging, PPE acquisition, testing, contact tracing, coordination of lockdowns. The only real success has been vaccine development...so of course we have to screw up the distribution. Ugh...

Thanks a lot, Obama!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 02, 2021, 08:33:40 AM

Not a surprise that this is a failure so far, but the magnitude of the ineptitude so far is blinding.


The magnitude is not really surprising since Trump had always been incompetent.  6 bankruptcies and 7 if you count what he did to the USA.
He's always been the gardener from Being There .  Purple thought he was more than he really was.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on January 02, 2021, 11:28:38 AM
The magnitude is not really surprising since Trump had always been incompetent.  6 bankruptcies and 7 if you count what he did to the USA.
He's always been the gardener from Being There .  Purple thought he was more than he really was.

Finally!!

The perfect analogy.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on January 02, 2021, 12:21:51 PM
Finally!!

The perfect analogy.


It is a great analogy in terms of how others view him - something dramatically greater/smarter than he really is.

But in terms of how he views himself, it's totally wrong if I recall the movie correctly. Didn't the gardener always know he knew was 'just' a gardener, so that he was unaffected (and rather perplexed) by others putting him on a pedestal?

If my recollection is right - spot on in terms of public image, but 180-degree opposite in terms of self-image.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on January 02, 2021, 12:50:02 PM

It is a great analogy in terms of how others view him - something dramatically greater/smarter than he really is.

But in terms of how he views himself, it's totally wrong if I recall the movie correctly. Didn't the gardener always know he knew was 'just' a gardener, so that he was unaffected (and rather perplexed) by others putting him on a pedestal?

If my recollection is right - spot on in terms of public image, but 180-degree opposite in terms of self-image.

You are correct, Goo.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: warriorchick on January 02, 2021, 09:46:38 PM
My dad forwarded this to me. I thought it was spot on:


A message to Vanderbilt University Medical Center and colleagues, patients and friends, from Dr. Jeffrey R. Balser, President & CEO

A Holiday Gift

Against the noisy background of masking debates, surges, flattening curves, warp speed initiatives, conflicting messages, misinformation and political controversies -- not to mention a revolutionary mRNA technology -- millions of people are deciding whether to take the COVID-19 vaccine.

This, however, is clear: In the U.S., more than 325,000 people have died from COVID-19, with over 3,000 people dying each day. Vanderbilt University Medical Center, like other hospitals and health systems across the nation, is experiencing what promises to be a long and very dark winter.

As much as we all might wish, the ills of 2020 will not vanish at the stroke of midnight as we welcome 2021. The next year will be ushered in with record numbers of people still becoming ill and requiring hospitalization — and the death toll will keep rising.

Today we are vaccinating those at greatest risk: the people working at our nation’s hospitals and medical centers. But soon there will be sufficient vaccine supplies to begin the much-anticipated process of vaccinating the millions of people living and working throughout our country.

Yet finding that light at the end of the tunnel requires much more than giving two doses to everyone who wants to be vaccinated. As if the most ambitious vaccination effort in human history isn’t enough of a challenge, conquering COVID-19 means we need to build a cocoon of safety for those we can’t effectively immunize -- our young children and our loved ones with conditions that suppress their immune systems. People who cannot be safeguarded by taking the vaccine themselves, because it isn’t yet available to them, or because their immune systems won’t respond even if they do take it.

This is why we so desperately need to achieve so-called “herd immunity.” An often-discussed term, it’s when a sufficient number of us are immune to COVID-19 that indirect protection is provided to those who are not actually immune to the disease. Essentially, it’s when so many people are immune that the virus can’t spread through the population. Achieving herd immunity for COVID-19 is a huge challenge. Unlike the flu, where many of us have some level of immunity from years of exposure to similar flu strains, this is a new virus for all of us so the projections show we need 70-90% of the population to be vaccinated, to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Given the COVID-19 vaccines are more than 90% effective, it is understandable that many people will take the vaccine to protect themselves. But we also know that many people — up to half of all Americans in some surveys — are considering not taking it. The reasons range from concerns about the newness of the vaccine and its safety, to general mistrust of research stemming from historical abuses such as the Tuskegee syphilis study, to skepticism about whether COVID-19 is even a serious problem.

So, if the only rationale to take the vaccine is “I will be protected,” then how do we convince those already reluctant to get vaccinated, especially when their personal risk of becoming seriously ill with COVID-19 may be small?

Just as Lincoln opined in his first inaugural address, this is a time for us to express “the better angels of our nature.” Beyond protecting ourselves directly, taking the vaccine to help achieve herd immunity isn’t an abstraction of epidemiology and science — it is a work of compassion. For those healthy and young, it’s a selfless act: “I’m doing this for you, even more than for me.” It’s an expression of concern for someone requiring immunosuppressants after an organ transplant whom we don’t even know. It’s an expression of care for someone who has been unemployed since the pandemic began, now struggling with food insecurity and homelessness.

It is this compassion for all in the face of uncertainty that we are asking everyone in our country to embrace. During World War II many of our citizens sent their family members overseas to fight in a war that threatened our way of life. Of the 16 million Americans who served in our military forces during the war, over 400,000 died, so the chances of dying were in retrospect about 3%. That’s not much different than the average risk of dying, across all ages and conditions, when someone has been diagnosed with COVID-19 in the U.S. Wouldn’t we agree the pandemic threatens our way of life today, causing the most unemployment since the Great Depression and more than 325,000 deaths so far?

Compassion flows from understanding, and we need to build that understanding with our neighbors, friends and family. And we need to listen.

Many people have fears about taking this vaccine. It is comforting that it has been tested exhaustively in many thousands of people, with clinical trials that are even larger and more diverse than those we have used for vaccines in the past. But it is still the case that the technology is new and we completed the work in record time — and for some, that’s unsettling. And there is always an element of faith when people take a new treatment, including a vaccine.

However, what feels to many of us like the “sudden” appearance of two remarkably effective RNA-based vaccines isn’t very surprising at all. It’s the result of decades of public investment in government-funded research, alongside investments by industry and foundations, coupled with painstaking work by thousands of researchers over decades. This is no different than landing on the moon or sequencing the genome. Much to celebrate, but also based on our history of swift scientific innovation in this country, practically inevitable.

We also need to engage our communities by singing, not shouting. Most people are not looking for a lecture. Instead, people want us to listen and to hear what they’re not saying: is it the nitty-gritty science they want, or is it validation that it’s OK to be apprehensive? Are they looking for someone who empathizes and understands they’re afraid — a fear that may be more agonizing to them than COVID-19?

This is one of those communication challenges where we need to harmonize like a chorus. The beauty of a chorus is that while everyone is singing from the same musical composition, the notes are not the same for each member. The full range of tones, with varied pitches, intensities and timbres, all create the resonating mixture of sound that attracts us to listen and holds our attention. Our diversity as a nation provides that complex range of singing voices, with varied communication styles and personal experiences — all influenced by our races, ages, gender preferences, and social and political backgrounds. Our chorus of perspectives is essential to making the case for immunization.

And finally — what better message at the holiday season? Before we can all remove our masks and be confident that we are truly caring for our neighbor, we need to give everyone a gift — including many people we don’t even know. The gift of vaccinating ourselves.

For more information, please visit vumc.org/coronavirus.



Sincerely,

Jeff Balser Signature

Jeff Balser, MD, PhD
President and CEO, Vanderbilt University Medical Center
Dean, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on January 02, 2021, 10:36:18 PM
That is awesome. Thanks for sharing, chick!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on January 03, 2021, 08:39:18 AM
You can’t tell me what to do with my body! This guy is a commie. I’m not a sheeple. Freedom!

Obviously I’m being sarcastic, but sadly a huge chunk of the country actually feels that way. Add the incompetent distribution and it will be a long year. And for someone like me that falls into the category of needing the herd immunity, it makes me angry.

Thanks for posting this chick!
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: injuryBug on January 03, 2021, 11:17:28 AM
You can’t tell me what to do with my body! This guy is a commie. I’m not a sheeple. Freedom!

Obviously I’m being sarcastic, but sadly a huge chunk of the country actually feels that way. Add the incompetent distribution and it will be a long year. And for someone like me that falls into the category of needing the herd immunity, it makes me angry.

Thanks for posting this chick!

Seriously it is such an easy decision. amazing how ignorrant people can be.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on January 03, 2021, 02:03:01 PM
Seriously it is such an easy decision. amazing how ignorrant people can be.

It is amazing. It is absolutely not surprising.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 04, 2021, 03:08:45 PM
Called the Vaccine Appointment number in Lee County Florida today. Minutes of busy signals/call can’t go through but I eventually got into the queue. They took my information (birthdate, phone #) via tape, said they would call me back. 5 hours later a real person called me back. I have a 9am appointment for Wednesday (day after tomorrow).
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 04, 2021, 03:17:10 PM
Called the Vaccine Appointment number in Lee County Florida today. Minutes of busy signals/call can’t go through but I eventually got into the queue. They took my information (birthdate, phone #) via tape, said they would call me back. 5 hours later a real person called me back. I have a 9am appointment for Wednesday (day after tomorrow).

Congrats Lenny. Exciting news
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on January 04, 2021, 03:18:03 PM
Good man, Lenny.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 04, 2021, 03:28:42 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right. 
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: tower912 on January 04, 2021, 03:29:14 PM
Good luck, Lenny.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 04, 2021, 04:08:17 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.

For the 5000 who were lucky enough to get appointments today, good news. But for every lucky one, many (30 or 40?) didn’t get through. Unfortunately, supply still well short of demand.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on January 04, 2021, 05:41:36 PM
For the 5000 who were lucky enough to get appointments today, good news. But for every lucky one, many (30 or 40?) didn’t get through. Unfortunately, supply still well short of demand.

What’s the Florida policy for essential workers?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 04, 2021, 09:11:59 PM
What’s the Florida policy for essential workers?


Health care workers and anyone working in nursing homes were first, along with nursing home residents. Next come seniors (65+). Then essential, non health care employees (teachers, police, fire fighters, grocery store employees, etc.). Then the public at large. At least that’s my understanding.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on January 04, 2021, 10:08:35 PM

Health care workers and anyone working in nursing homes were first, along with nursing home residents. Next come seniors (65+). Then essential, non health care employees (teachers, police, fire fighters, grocery store employees, etc.). Then the public at large. At least that’s my understanding.

There are a lot of frontline health-care workers that have not had an opportunity to get vaccinated in Florida yet. They just aren't allocating the vaccine to areas where it is still needed by healthcare workers.

Similar story in other states.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on January 05, 2021, 08:01:03 AM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.

It goes county by county. Ours is a cluster. But hey, in some counties here you can book your vaccination and a concert with one fee!

Florida counties use Eventbrite to schedule COVID-19 vaccine appointments
https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/4/22213307/covid-vaccine-florida-eventbrite
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on January 05, 2021, 10:45:06 AM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.
Or not:
'It's a disgrace': Seniors rage over rollout of coronavirus vaccine
Distributing the coronavirus vaccine to the state's 4.4 million seniors appears to be going slowly.

Arthur and Barbara Tolkin have a new morning ritual. They get up early, grab their phones and start making calls, desperately trying to schedule an appointment to get a coronavirus vaccine.

Although the North Palm Beach couple have made scores of phone calls to health-care providers in Palm Beach County and beyond, the results have been the same.

“You cannot get through,” said 86-year-old Barbara Tolkin, who is recovering from open heart surgery. “It’s horrendous. It’s a disgrace.”


She is not alone in her view.

Countless other senior citizens throughout the county have tried and failed to successfully navigate jammed phone lines to get information about the long-hoped-for vaccine.

“Nobody knows anything,” said Mildred Smiley, an 80-plus widow who lives west of Boynton Beach. “My own doctors know nothing. Hospitals know nothing. Health clinics know nothing.


The county had to scrap its initial vaccine rollout plan, which included first responders, after Gov. Ron DeSantis on Dec. 23 unexpectedly announced seniors would join health-care workers and nursing home residents and staff at the front of the line.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: MUBurrow on January 05, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
So is the second shot booster the exact same as the first shot? Or is the dosage, etc different?  If getting the first shot is this much of a free for all, how are we going to manage making sure people that have gotten the first shot get their booster within the acceptable time period per the clinical trials, and also distinguish those folks from the crush of people still trying to get their first dose?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on January 05, 2021, 12:23:32 PM
So is the second shot booster the exact same as the first shot? Or is the dosage, etc different?  If getting the first shot is this much of a free for all, how are we going to manage making sure people that have gotten the first shot get their booster within the acceptable time period per the clinical trials, and also distinguish those folks from the crush of people still trying to get their first dose?

When you receive your first round, you get scheduled for the 2nd.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on January 05, 2021, 12:43:11 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.

Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.

Many states are similar. Somehow "concierge doctors" are getting supplies that they are authorized to give to seniors or people with pre-existing conditions, while individual counties can't get doses delivered to vaccinate their first responders and critical hospital staff.

Good news for people thought that can/want to get on a list. The CDC list of conditions is pretty lengthy, and includes things like being a current or former smoker, having asthma, high blood pressure, and others.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html

So pretty much most people can qualify if they want to.



Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 05, 2021, 12:45:10 PM
Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.

Many states are similar. Somehow "concierge doctors" are getting supplies that they are authorized to give to seniors or people with pre-existing conditions, while individual counties can't get doses delivered to vaccinate their first responders and critical hospital staff.

Good news for people thought that can/want to get on a list. The CDC list of conditions is pretty lengthy, and includes things like being a current or former smoker, having asthma, high blood pressure, and others.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html

So pretty much most people can qualify if they want to.






OK thank you.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on January 05, 2021, 12:49:42 PM
Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.

Many states are similar. Somehow "concierge doctors" are getting supplies that they are authorized to give to seniors or people with pre-existing conditions, while individual counties can't get doses delivered to vaccinate their first responders and critical hospital staff.

Good news for people thought that can/want to get on a list. The CDC list of conditions is pretty lengthy, and includes things like being a current or former smoker, having asthma, high blood pressure, and others.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html

So pretty much most people can qualify if they want to.

Source?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Warrior2008 on January 05, 2021, 12:52:27 PM
Health care worker getting my first round of Moderna today.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but its coming everyone.  Just gotta hang in there a little longer.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Jockey on January 05, 2021, 12:57:53 PM
Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.



What could be more Amurican than this?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on January 05, 2021, 03:24:57 PM
Source?

It's difficult to provide a formal source for this, what I can do is give you what I am basing this off of.

1. I have friends/colleagues that have their physicians associated with a ritzy private hospital. They had been notified that they are eligible for the vaccine. That hospital is now providing 700-1000 doses a day, limited only by available doctors to inject in arm. It is only available though to patients currently associated with a doctor in their hospital network, regardless of status. So I have friends who are frontline workers, that can't get a vaccine, but a 30-year old obese individual with a doctor at that hospital is getting it.

2. In my area, family practices have started to like to go to a "concierge" model. Where even if you have insurance, you must pay an extra fee (often $10k+ per year) to be a part of their practice. I have friends in 2-states (Florida being one of them) that have been told they can make an appointment for their vaccine and will be getting it this week.

That led me to investigate a little deeper, as these types of things intrigue me.

In some areas they publicly disclose where doses (and how many) have been allocated. I've looked through some of those lists and you can see some concierge practices listed. It is slightly above board as a friend explained, here is the trick.

First, your clinic applies to be a vaccine provider. You then justify that you need doses to vaccinate your front-line workers. If approved, the smallest order is for 100-doses of Moderna. You then get allocated 100-doses. But because you are a small concierge practice with minimal staff/doctors, you maybe use up 40 doses for staff. You are then required to use up the remaining doses so they do not go to waste, where you make an effort to follow the guidelines (currently phase 1a and 1b).

You then use those remaining doses for your high-paying clients that "loosely" fit the CDC guidelines, or if you have no one else in the priority categories you are allowed to call family and friends to ensure that they do not go to waste.

So technically above board, and following the guidelines, but then you have 100 doses going to a concierge practice, when a neighboring rural county can't vaccinate their front line medical workers.

It is a bit anecdotal in that the data I can see is limited.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on January 05, 2021, 03:33:27 PM
While Florida and specifically Palm Beach county remain a cluster, I was able to get my 96 year old dad an appointment to get a shot at the local VA. No wait on the phone. Multiple appointment time options.
So, to the vets out there, it may be worth a shot (pun intended) to reach out to your local VA.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: forgetful on January 05, 2021, 03:37:30 PM
Another factor driving inequity are the algorithms used to decide which locations/counties get vaccines.

Most states use an algorithm that includes storage availability. The low-temperature freezers needed to store the vaccine are not traditionally available in some poorer locations, and they didn't have more money to go out and buy a bunch.

Other wealthier locations stockpiled -80 C freezers. They now benefit from the algorithm, as they can prove significant unused storage capacity.

Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on January 05, 2021, 03:43:47 PM
It's difficult to provide a formal source for this, what I can do is give you what I am basing this off of.

1. I have friends/colleagues that have their physicians associated with a ritzy private hospital. They had been notified that they are eligible for the vaccine. That hospital is now providing 700-1000 doses a day, limited only by available doctors to inject in arm. It is only available though to patients currently associated with a doctor in their hospital network, regardless of status. So I have friends who are frontline workers, that can't get a vaccine, but a 30-year old obese individual with a doctor at that hospital is getting it.

2. In my area, family practices have started to like to go to a "concierge" model. Where even if you have insurance, you must pay an extra fee (often $10k+ per year) to be a part of their practice. I have friends in 2-states (Florida being one of them) that have been told they can make an appointment for their vaccine and will be getting it this week.

That led me to investigate a little deeper, as these types of things intrigue me.

In some areas they publicly disclose where doses (and how many) have been allocated. I've looked through some of those lists and you can see some concierge practices listed. It is slightly above board as a friend explained, here is the trick.

First, your clinic applies to be a vaccine provider. You then justify that you need doses to vaccinate your front-line workers. If approved, the smallest order is for 100-doses of Moderna. You then get allocated 100-doses. But because you are a small concierge practice with minimal staff/doctors, you maybe use up 40 doses for staff. You are then required to use up the remaining doses so they do not go to waste, where you make an effort to follow the guidelines (currently phase 1a and 1b).

You then use those remaining doses for your high-paying clients that "loosely" fit the CDC guidelines, or if you have no one else in the priority categories you are allowed to call family and friends to ensure that they do not go to waste.

So technically above board, and following the guidelines, but then you have 100 doses going to a concierge practice, when a neighboring rural county can't vaccinate their front line medical workers.

It is a bit anecdotal in that the data I can see is limited.


I have no doubt that some states are doing that. But here in MN, money and prestige seem not to be factors. Mayo Clinic is a vaccination site, sees lots of high profile patients and has been prominent in the fight against COVID. Yet when the Pfizer supply began coming out, Mayo reportedly got proportionately less vaccine than some smaller, more rural places. The state's rationale - and a legitimate one if they have the data to support it - was that staff at smaller facilities have to multitask more often, so larger proportions are likely to work directly with COVID patients (as opposed to Mayo's more specialized practice).

Probably an outlier, though....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: shoothoops on January 05, 2021, 09:06:17 PM
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 05, 2021, 09:37:05 PM
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19

Good lord.  How immoral.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on January 05, 2021, 10:06:41 PM
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19

Anything gonna happen to those business/executives for employing those folks? No?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: GooooMarquette on January 05, 2021, 10:16:56 PM
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19


Appalling and inhumane....
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: pbiflyer on January 05, 2021, 11:13:02 PM
Anything gonna happen to those business/executives for employing those folks? No?

Tax cuts?
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: jesmu84 on January 05, 2021, 11:32:35 PM
Tax cuts?

Exactly
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2021, 09:16:43 AM
Had a 9am appointment to be vaccinated this morning. Arrived 25 minutes early, had the needle in my arm at 8:55. Well staffed, courteous, extremely efficient. I was issued a card which allows me to set up my 2nd dose any time 28+ days from now. Major kudos to our governor - there were problems with the rollout last week, but the site where I was vaccinated was beyond any of my hopes/expectations. Probably won’t be enough to impress CNN but it certainly did me.
Title: Re: Vaccine/Antibody updates
Post by: Retire0 on Jan