Decided to start a new thread for information people find on Vaccines and antibody testing updates and also general discussion on Covid-19 and how we move forward without the political BS in the other thread.
Stole this link from Frenns
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/492191-antibody-tests-for-the-coronavirus-could-be
UK bullish.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be (https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 11, 2020, 06:49:17 PM
UK bullish.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be (https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/492372-top-uk-scientist-80-percent-confident-a-covid-19-vaccine-could-be)
Hard to imagine, but it would be awesome if it happens on that timeline.
St. Luke's in Milwaukee on the forefront of this:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/04/11/milwaukee-man-stable-after-experimental-coronavirus-plasma-transfusion/2977352001/
Quote from: warriorchick on April 12, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
St. Luke's in Milwaukee on the forefront of this:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/04/11/milwaukee-man-stable-after-experimental-coronavirus-plasma-transfusion/2977352001/
I'm assuming (?) that is part of the national study that is coordinating criteria for administration, monitoring and data collection. https://www.uscovidplasma.org To date, more than 800 sites (hospitals, blood banks, etc) are participating. By using the standardized protocol, FDA and docs will be in the best position to monitor and assess the safety and efficacy of the treatment.
Really hoping this works....
Heard a story today that a study of SARS patients showed that in that case, anti-bodies stay in the body and are effective for up to 2 years before starting to drop off by the 3rd year. So if it is similar for COVID and the convalescent plasma treatment is effective, it may not be the same as a vaccine but it could provide similar results until (if) a vaccine is developed.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 13, 2020, 12:22:40 PM
Heard a story today that a study of SARS patients showed that in that case, anti-bodies stay in the body and are effective for up to 2 years before starting to drop off by the 3rd year. So if it is similar for COVID and the convalescent plasma treatment is effective, it may not be the same as a vaccine but it could provide similar results until (if) a vaccine is developed.
May not be entirely accurate. The problem is two fold. Yes, antibodies remain detectable for 3-years on SARS (see reference 23 in the link below). But they start declining within 4 months. Where between 3-years and 4-months you drop below an effective level is unknown.
For MERS, the antibody levels dropped rapidly within the first 3-months (see reference 24). So depending on which one this is like, could mean, no resistance within 3-months, or some resistance up to 3-years.
Now, in both cases that is for patients that were infected and recovered on their own. That would not be the case (as far as I'm aware) for someone just injected with antibodies. So it alone can't "act as a vaccine". It doesn't work that way.
But I agree, that it will likely act as our best bridge until a vaccine is developed.
Note. The link below is to the peer reviewed study of the first uses of convalescent plasma therapy for COVID.
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/02/2004168117
Great stuff forgetful, thank you.
Florida man to the rescue! Our little town.
Coronavirus Florida: Jupiter scientists think they've found effective vaccine option
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20200421/coronavirus-florida-jupiter-scientists-think-theyrsquove-found-effective-vaccine-option
If you are bored on Wednesday, they are having a webinar to discuss. Limited to 3000 people, so get your seats early.
Scientists at Scripps Research Institute think they're onto something big. Some of the latest research coming out of Scripps' Jupiter campus could lead to a safe and effective coronavirus vaccine, researchers there say.
"These data suggest that an RBD-based vaccine for (the coronavirus) could be safe and effective," researchers wrote in a draft abstract. The preliminary findings were posted April 12 on Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory's website for unpublished life science preprints.
https://news.yale.edu/2020/04/24/saliva-samples-preferable-deep-nasal-swabs-testing-covid-19
Not antibody but another positive toward saliva based which could open up more tests
Quote from: injuryBug on April 26, 2020, 11:44:55 AM
https://news.yale.edu/2020/04/24/saliva-samples-preferable-deep-nasal-swabs-testing-covid-19
Not antibody but another positive toward saliva based which could open up more tests
And spitting is a lot more fun than having someone stick a swab way up your nose....
Dr. Michael Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, told NBC's Meet The Press "The FDA has all but given up its oversight responsibility for the tests we have on the market," he added. "Many of them are nothing short of a disaster."
Officials have sounded the alarm about the efficacy of tests currently on the market, criticizing the FDA for greenlighting the products too quickly. The federal government temporarily stripped some of its regulatory barriers after it was scrutinized for its slow rollout of diagnostic tests.
On Friday, the House Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy released preliminary findings that showed "wide gaps" in the Trump administration's handling of antibody testing. "FDA did not review any coronavirus 'rapid' antibody test kits before they went on the market, and a lack of enforcement by FDA has allowed manufacturers to make fraudulent claims about their efficacy," according to the panel's findings.
Quote from: Jockey on April 26, 2020, 03:04:02 PM
Dr. Michael Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, told NBC's Meet The Press "The FDA has all but given up its oversight responsibility for the tests we have on the market," he added. "Many of them are nothing short of a disaster."
Officials have sounded the alarm about the efficacy of tests currently on the market, criticizing the FDA for greenlighting the products too quickly. The federal government temporarily stripped some of its regulatory barriers after it was scrutinized for its slow rollout of diagnostic tests.
On Friday, the House Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy released preliminary findings that showed "wide gaps" in the Trump administration's handling of antibody testing. "FDA did not review any coronavirus 'rapid' antibody test kits before they went on the market, and a lack of enforcement by FDA has allowed manufacturers to make fraudulent claims about their efficacy," according to the panel's findings.
Regrettably, that seems to be similar to CDC's approach to its disease control and prevention functions, essentially handing responsibility for testing and contact tracing to the states through its inaction.
Given that CDC and FDA both report to Azar, who in turn reports to a president who ran on a deregulation platform, it's hard to tell how much of this is negligence by the regulators and how much is a result of a three-year long effort to punt regulatory responsibility downstream.
Azar looks to be losing his job and as head of FDA and CDC I don't know that it is inappropriate. I hope they bring in someone with a strong POV with how to make the best of this—Gottlieb has been vocal and is in the right party. Maybe he would be a good replacement.
I may (and should have) added that there are also capable people on the task force like Birx.
I want an antibody test. Anyone know where I could get one in MKE?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 26, 2020, 05:24:00 PM
I want an antibody test. Anyone know where I could get one in MKE?
Please be aware that depending on which test you get, there may be as high of a 20% false positive rate.
So if only 2% of people are infected, for every 1 that tests positive that did have it, 9 will test positive that have never had it.
Quote from: forgetful on April 26, 2020, 08:04:45 PM
Please be aware that depending on which test you get, there may be as high of a 20% false positive rate.
So if only 2% of people are infected, for every 1 that tests positive that did have it, 9 will test positive that have never had it.
Nm
Some potentially excellent news
In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead
"Most other teams have had to start with small clinical trials of a few hundred participants to demonstrate safety. But scientists at the university's Jenner Institute had a head start on a vaccine, having proved in previous trials that similar inoculations — including one last year against an earlier coronavirus — were harmless to humans.
"That has enabled them to leap ahead and schedule tests of their new coronavirus vaccine involving more than 6,000 people by the end of next month, hoping to show not only that it is safe, but also that it works.
"Scientists at the National Institutes of Health's Rocky Mountain Laboratory in Montana last month inoculated six rhesus macaque monkeys with single doses of the Oxford vaccine. The animals were then exposed to heavy quantities of the virus that is causing the pandemic — exposure that had consistently sickened other monkeys in the lab. But more than 28 days later all six were healthy, said Vincent Munster, the researcher who conducted the test."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/world/europe/coronavirus-vaccine-update-oxford.html?campaign_id=168&emc=edit_NN_p_20200428&instance_id=17997&nl=morning-briefing®i_id=98421546§ion=topNews&segment_id=26118&te=1&user_id=65badcb7c07b4cd4815fe5e758510381
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 28, 2020, 07:30:05 AM
Some potentially excellent news
In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead
"Most other teams have had to start with small clinical trials of a few hundred participants to demonstrate safety. But scientists at the university's Jenner Institute had a head start on a vaccine, having proved in previous trials that similar inoculations — including one last year against an earlier coronavirus — were harmless to humans.
"That has enabled them to leap ahead and schedule tests of their new coronavirus vaccine involving more than 6,000 people by the end of next month, hoping to show not only that it is safe, but also that it works.
"Scientists at the National Institutes of Health's Rocky Mountain Laboratory in Montana last month inoculated six rhesus macaque monkeys with single doses of the Oxford vaccine. The animals were then exposed to heavy quantities of the virus that is causing the pandemic — exposure that had consistently sickened other monkeys in the lab. But more than 28 days later all six were healthy, said Vincent Munster, the researcher who conducted the test."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/world/europe/coronavirus-vaccine-update-oxford.html?campaign_id=168&emc=edit_NN_p_20200428&instance_id=17997&nl=morning-briefing®i_id=98421546§ion=topNews&segment_id=26118&te=1&user_id=65badcb7c07b4cd4815fe5e758510381
I'm hesitantly optimistic. Early on I commented that I thought there was a chance that a vaccine may be able to be accelerated to around 9-months. So ready by around October. That was based on a group like this one, getting started right away, and a country willing to bend testing rules and allow accelerated phase II/III trials.
Now the big hurdle. It has to work. A lot of treatments/vaccines work fine in mice or monkeys, then fail when they transition to monkeys. Hoping this one works well, or at least moderately.
https://covidtestingproject.org/index.html
For those interested in getting antibody tests. You can look here to find which tests are accurate and which are not, and then make sure that your testing company is giving you a good one.
Quote from: forgetful on April 28, 2020, 10:47:23 PM
https://covidtestingproject.org/index.html
For those interested in getting antibody tests. You can look here to find which tests are accurate and which are not, and then make sure that your testing company is giving you a good one.
I'm having trouble reading them .. it kinda seems like the tests for antibodies are not very good early, 1-5 "days since onset." 11-15days they are pretty good .. then > 20 days .. maybe they're good, but the dots fade out as if to say they aren't?
I would have thought you'd have a ton of antibodies after infection, then fewer as time went on, but maybe my medical degree from Holiday Inn Express is failing me.
Then the other chart .. seems to suggest as time goes on, +20 days, the positive tests are way fewer, more negatives. So .. if you were infected 2 months ago, you don't have detectable antibodies anymore? I don't get it.
-- Saw this website on the news last night .. $119 and they'll direct you to an office for a blood draw and antibody test .. no idea where the offices are located in the US though: http://getquesttest.com/
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 29, 2020, 08:51:51 AM
I'm having trouble reading them .. it kinda seems like the tests for antibodies are not very good early, 1-5 "days since onset." 11-15days they are pretty good .. then > 20 days .. maybe they're good, but the dots fade out as if to say they aren't?
I would have thought you'd have a ton of antibodies after infection, then fewer as time went on, but maybe my medical degree from Holiday Inn Express is failing me.
Then the other chart .. seems to suggest as time goes on, +20 days, the positive tests are way fewer, more negatives. So .. if you were infected 2 months ago, you don't have detectable antibodies anymore? I don't get it.
-- Saw this website on the news last night .. $119 and they'll direct you to an office for a blood draw and antibody test .. no idea where the offices are located in the US though: http://getquesttest.com/
In general, the figures in the main link are hard to read. But the text in the paper linked in the main link is more informative.
What you are seeing in the 2nd table where you see dots fading out, I think that is due to a lack of samples, or running out of sample material at >20 days.
The main text in the paper link has a table summarizing efficacy of each test in SARS-CoV2 patients, and in blood samples from prior to COVID-19 emerging (e.g. from at least a year ago). The latter lets you test false positives. The table in the main text is the most useful part.
It is normal and expected for antibodies to peak late in the infection. In general we have two different immune systems, the innate immune system, and the adaptive immune system. Early in infections the innate immune system tries to clear any foreign infections, it does not have specificity for any specific disease, it is a general response.
Later in infection the adaptive immune system kicks in. It is specific to an antigen, and includes the production of antibodies. So we expect that later in the infection there will be more antibodies present and a higher degree of positive antibody tests.
Quote from: forgetful on April 29, 2020, 10:29:34 AM
It is normal and expected for antibodies to peak late in the infection. In general we have two different immune systems, the innate immune system, and the adaptive immune system. Early in infections the innate immune system tries to clear any foreign infections, it does not have specificity for any specific disease, it is a general response.
Later in infection the adaptive immune system kicks in. It is specific to an antigen, and includes the production of antibodies. So we expect that later in the infection there will be more antibodies present and a higher degree of positive antibody tests.
That is a terrific explanation for non-scientists.
The only thing I would add - to help others understand some terms they may be hearing in the news - is that the cytokines, the complement system, and various types of white blood cells (macrophages, natural killer cells, T-cells and such) are parts of the innate immune system. They all help to serve as a bridge to get us to the point where we have specific antibodies directed at the pathogen.
Good news and bad news.
There are currently 5 vaccines in clinical trials and 71 vaccines in pre-clinical trials (end of good news). But if even one of them makes in to market in 12-18 months, it would be the quickest turnaround in history. The record for fastest vaccine is 4 years for the Mumps back in the 60s. For Ebola, a vaccine took 5 years.
Normally, a vaccine takes 8-10 years. With the amount of work being done for this one, though, 18 months may be achievable.
We don't even know what type of vaccine will work best as there are different ways of attacking it, but vaccines are a different animal than medicines. You are not trying to cure people, so in a healthy population, you don't want the vaccine to have negative consequences. Thus the human clinical trials take the longest.
Phase 1 - testing on healthy volunteers for serious side effects.
Phase 2 - smaller studies of efficacy, looking at best dosages and scheduling of dosages.
Phase 3 - large field studies. Using a control group and looking for side effects and at what dosages they occur.
So, once again, this shows the lunacy of our leader when he says we may have a vaccine in a few months. Not just lunacy, but flat out lying as he has been told different by the scientists.
One last bit of good news - medical treatments may well be available much sooner for seriously ill patients.
Ok .. so true or false, a COVID anti-body test .. after 20 days, 200 days will they be able to detect COVID antibodies / is it harder to detect / more false positives/negatives?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 29, 2020, 12:56:20 PM
Ok .. so true or false, a COVID anti-body test .. after 20 days, 200 days will they be able to detect COVID antibodies / is it harder to detect / more false positives/negatives?
that's a little to complicated for a T/F question. Time for some Horsey sauce to fix your brain waves.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 29, 2020, 12:56:20 PM
Ok .. so true or false, a COVID anti-body test .. after 20 days, 200 days will they be able to detect COVID antibodies / is it harder to detect / more false positives/negatives?
After 20 days, yes, you will be able to detect antibodies. Tests have a greater than 95% accuracy in detecting antibodies at that time frame, some over 99% accurate. So minimal false negatives.
After 200 days, we don't even know if people will still have antibodies. That is an open question.
Regarding false positives, depending on which test you take, there will be between 2-20% false positives, that is the problem.
Quote from: Jockey on April 29, 2020, 11:34:35 AM
Good news and bad news.
There are currently 5 vaccines in clinical trials and 71 vaccines in pre-clinical trials (end of good news). But if even one of them makes in to market in 12-18 months, it would be the quickest turnaround in history. The record for fastest vaccine is 4 years for the Mumps back in the 60s. For Ebola, a vaccine took 5 years.
Normally, a vaccine takes 8-10 years. With the amount of work being done for this one, though, 18 months may be achievable.
We don't even know what type of vaccine will work best as there are different ways of attacking it, but vaccines are a different animal than medicines. You are not trying to cure people, so in a healthy population, you don't want the vaccine to have negative consequences. Thus the human clinical trials take the longest.
Phase 1 - testing on healthy volunteers for serious side effects.
Phase 2 - smaller studies of efficacy, looking at best dosages and scheduling of dosages.
Phase 3 - large field studies. Using a control group and looking for side effects and at what dosages they occur.
So, once again, this shows the lunacy of our leader when he says we may have a vaccine in a few months. Not just lunacy, but flat out lying as he has been told different by the scientists.
One last bit of good news - medical treatments may well be available much sooner for seriously ill patients.
Yep, I saw one report that said average is 10.7 years for vaccine. And 6% of developed vaccines have been successful.
Quote from: Jockey on April 29, 2020, 11:34:35 AM
Good news and bad news.
There are currently 5 vaccines in clinical trials and 71 vaccines in pre-clinical trials (end of good news). But if even one of them makes in to market in 12-18 months, it would be the quickest turnaround in history. The record for fastest vaccine is 4 years for the Mumps back in the 60s. For Ebola, a vaccine took 5 years.
Normally, a vaccine takes 8-10 years. With the amount of work being done for this one, though, 18 months may be achievable.
We don't even know what type of vaccine will work best as there are different ways of attacking it, but vaccines are a different animal than medicines. You are not trying to cure people, so in a healthy population, you don't want the vaccine to have negative consequences. Thus the human clinical trials take the longest.
Phase 1 - testing on healthy volunteers for serious side effects.
Phase 2 - smaller studies of efficacy, looking at best dosages and scheduling of dosages.
Phase 3 - large field studies. Using a control group and looking for side effects and at what dosages they occur.
So, once again, this shows the lunacy of our leader when he says we may have a vaccine in a few months. Not just lunacy, but flat out lying as he has been told different by the scientists.
One last bit of good news - medical treatments may well be available much sooner for seriously ill patients.
This for the Mods:
Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.
Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.
Biden isn't the POTUS, and isn't making false statements about COVID on a daily basis.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
This for the Mods:
Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.
Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.
You aren't wrong, but Trump is the one in charge. The decider. The one where the buck stops. And criticizing a sitting president has been a national pastime since we have had presidents. The solution for you should be to make a cogent, fact based, no campaign talking point, case that the federal response has been timely, appropriate, and effective. Shut up the complainers.
Quote from: tower912 on April 30, 2020, 11:27:06 AM
You aren't wrong, but Trump is the one in charge. The decider. The one where the buck stops. And criticizing a sitting president has been a national pastime since we have had presidents. The solution for you should be to make a cogent, fact based, no campaign talking point, case that the federal response has been timely, appropriate, and effective. Shut up the complainers.
To take it a step further, if Biden was doing what our current POTUS is doing, he'd be getting criticized the same way from me.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
This for the Mods:
Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.
Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.
Has drinking cleaning products proven to be effective in treating covid 19? Can we inject sunlight to attack the virus?
I assume these are the scientific discussions you're referring to. Trump SHOULDN'T be putting three sentences together. When he does it usually has some bad consequences.
Quote from: tower912 on April 30, 2020, 11:27:06 AM
You aren't wrong, but Trump is the one in charge. The decider. The one where the buck stops. And criticizing a sitting president has been a national pastime since we have had presidents. The solution for you should be to make a cogent, fact based, no campaign talking point, case that the federal response has been timely, appropriate, and effective. Shut up the complainers.
There is a differnce between critcizing the president, feds, governors, mayors, etc. and the gratuitous political commentary from the likes of jockitch, tsmith, wades, Dad, and nads82.
There are plenty of left leaning posters that can accomplish the first point without resorting to the 2nd.
Likewise, there are plenty of opposing viewpoints that also cant resist the commentary (myself included), but that has been predominantly in repsonse to the poo tossing from the above 5.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 30, 2020, 11:48:14 AM
There is a differnce between critcizing the president, feds, governors, mayors, etc. and the gratuitous political commentary from the likes of jockitch, tsmith, wades, Dad, and nads82.
There are plenty of left leaning posters that can accomplish the first point without resorting to the 2nd.
Likewise, there are plenty of opposing viewpoints that also cant resist the commentary (myself included), but that has been predominantly in repsonse to the poo tossing from the above 5.
Lol you sound like the Cubs fans in the MLB thread a couple years ago. "These guys made me do it!"
PS I'm just passing along what's been suggested by our "leader." Not sure why you support him if my posts FORCE you to post so out of character for yourself.
::)
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
This for the Mods:
Hmm... no discussion on Biden (thread locked) , but free to criticize Trump. Again what happen to no politics. A lot of the discussion is not about vaccines, but to point out that the President is obviously not a clinical scientist. Yet there're those here who think a guy who can't put 3 sentences together would handle this situation any better. Just think about that. He is the alternative.
Now I hope we can return to a sound scientific discussion
about vacines and therapies to treat this awful virus without all the political finger pointing.
How is Biden involved with Covid? When he is, I will have either praise or criticism of the job he does.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 30, 2020, 11:48:14 AM
There is a differnce between critcizing the president, feds, governors, mayors, etc. and the gratuitous political commentary from the likes of jockitch, tsmith, wades, Dad, and nads82.
There are plenty of left leaning posters that can accomplish the first point without resorting to the 2nd.
Likewise, there are plenty of opposing viewpoints that also cant resist the commentary (myself included), but that has been predominantly in repsonse to the poo tossing from the above 5.
You know what you could do? You could try to refute what you see as gratuitous political commentary instead of crying like a child. You could make an argument as to why the response to the pandemic has been good, point out all the wonderful things that have been done, make some suggestions on what could be done in the future.
Heck, you could even add to the thread by pointing out research and other developments that are occurring, trends that are showing up, or how you see it playing out as states re-open. But instead of doing that 99% of your posts alternate between content free snips and whining to the mods. Instead of being a complete snowflake, maybe try contributing something and stop sobbing about those that do.
Alternatively, we could probably all be a bit better here.
What is frustrating is reading a generally well thought out post... and then there is one or two lines that are just not necessary, and will probably fan the flames. Of course, I'm guilty of this as well. I'm going to work on it... so maybe we all should. It would make this place a bit less toxic.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 30, 2020, 12:58:21 PM
You know what you could do? You could try to refute what you see as gratuitous political commentary instead of crying like a child. You could make an argument as to why the response to the pandemic has been good, point out all the wonderful things that have been done, make some suggestions on what could be done in the future.
Heck, you could even add to the thread by pointing out research and other developments that are occurring, trends that are showing up, or how you see it playing out as states re-open. But instead of doing that 99% of your posts alternate between content free snips and whining to the mods. Instead of being a complete snowflake, maybe try contributing something and stop sobbing about those that do.
You can also pm your daily koz talking points to your pals too and respect rocky and topper's request to keep the politics out.
But personal accountability and self control is something you clearly lack.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 30, 2020, 01:52:33 PM
You can also pm your daily koz talking points to your pals too and respect rocky and topper's request to keep the politics out.
But personal accountability and self control is something you clearly lack.
Says the guy blaming his posting habits on other posters.
Back on topic, some potential good news.
South Korea says recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again did not relapse: Tests picked up 'dead virus fragments'
https://www.yahoo.com/news/south-korea-says-recovered-coronavirus-133600512.html
Experts in South Korea said that recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again were not reinfected and that their virus was not reactivated, as was previously feared.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2020, 11:40:11 AM
To take it a step further, if Biden was doing what our current POTUS is doing, he'd be getting criticized the same way from me.
I am right there with you. I salute Hogan and Dewine. I may not vote for them, but when safe again I would like to shake their hand. And if I were less than enthralled with their opponent, I would reward their leadership with my vote. I am a bleeding heart, but a pragmatic one and I appreciate leadership.
Quote from: pbiflyer on April 30, 2020, 02:59:40 PM
Back on topic, some potential good news.
South Korea says recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again did not relapse: Tests picked up 'dead virus fragments'
https://www.yahoo.com/news/south-korea-says-recovered-coronavirus-133600512.html
Experts in South Korea said that recovered coronavirus patients who tested positive again were not reinfected and that their virus was not reactivated, as was previously feared.
.
That is incredibly good news if it holds true. If patients could recover and then relapse, this could turn from a global catastrophe to a Sci-Fi movie that ends with a scorched earth....
Quote from: tower912 on April 30, 2020, 03:54:34 PM
I am right there with you. I salute Hogan and Dewine. I may not vote for them, but when safe again I would like to shake their hand. And if I were less than enthralled with their opponent, I would reward their leadership with my vote. I am a bleeding heart, but a pragmatic one and I appreciate leadership.
I was reading today that Gov Hogan was keeping the tests he bought from South Korea under armed guard because he didn't want Trump trying to steal from the states again.
Quote from: tower912 on April 30, 2020, 03:54:34 PM
I am right there with you. I salute Hogan and Dewine. I may not vote for them, but when safe again I would like to shake their hand. And if I were less than enthralled with their opponent, I would reward their leadership with my vote. I am a bleeding heart, but a pragmatic one and I appreciate leadership.
Very well said.
Republicans like Hogan and Dewine deserve huge props for listening to experts and protecting their citizens at the risk of becoming pariahs to POTUS and their party. I applaud their leadership.
Likewise, I will criticize Trump as long as he continues to do more harm than good with his lies, mixed messages, misguided recommendations and constant self-aggrandizement.
This is not political. It is the biggest national and international threat in generations.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 30, 2020, 04:35:14 PM
I was reading today that Gov Hogan was keeping the tests he bought from South Korea under armed guard because he didn't want Trump trying to steal from the states again.
https://twitter.com/kathrynw5/status/1255922620832329729?s=19
Yashar Ali 🐘 @yashar
NEWS: Pfizer and German pharmaceutical company BioNTech announced that their potential coronavirus vaccine began human trials in the United States on Monday. If tests are successful, the vaccine could be ready for emergency use here as early as September nytimes.com/2020/05/05/hea...
Quote from: Pakuni on May 05, 2020, 08:43:04 AM
Yashar Ali 🐘 @yashar
NEWS: Pfizer and German pharmaceutical company BioNTech announced that their potential coronavirus vaccine began human trials in the United States on Monday. If tests are successful, the vaccine could be ready for emergency use here as early as September nytimes.com/2020/05/05/hea...
That is insanely fast. Hope everything works out with it and its safe, effective, and scalable.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 05, 2020, 08:51:24 AM
That is insanely fast. Hope everything works out with it and its safe, effective, and scalable.
It is fast, but it might be helpful to clarify for those who aren't familiar with emergency use authorizations: a drug approved under an EUA has not gone through the same level to testing for safety and effectiveness as a normal approved drug. That means while it might be available via the emergency use, we almost certainly won't know by September how safe or effective the vaccine really is.
It's also worth noting that drugs approved under EUAs are typically those for people who already have the disease in question; kind of a last resort for someone desperately ill. Think remdesovir, where people are already in the ICU with grave symptoms, and are willing to try a drug that hasn't been fully vetted for safety and effectiveness.
Given that distinction, I have to seriously wonder whether people would really even use a vaccine under approved under an EUA. Low-risk populations might very well just say "I'll take my chances," while higher-risk populations might very well just say "I'll just stay home." Bottom line: I have serious reservations about whether we could get enough people to take a vaccine approved under an EUA to achieve herd immunity. IMHO, we are going to need a vaccine approved only after the normal level of FDA safety and effectiveness testing, or we won't get enough people who are willing to take it.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 05, 2020, 08:43:04 AM
Yashar Ali 🐘 @yashar
NEWS: Pfizer and German pharmaceutical company BioNTech announced that their potential coronavirus vaccine began human trials in the United States on Monday. If tests are successful, the vaccine could be ready for emergency use here as early as September nytimes.com/2020/05/05/hea...
They are giving the crazed anti-vaxxers a lot of ammo if the vaccine are on the market by September. No vaccine has ever been approved without extensive human trials.
I'm sure it'll be free/reasonably priced too
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 05, 2020, 12:41:38 PM
I'm sure it'll be free/reasonably priced too
Have some faith brother. The polio vaccine was.
Quote from: #UnleashJayce on May 05, 2020, 04:38:09 PM
Have some faith brother. The polio vaccine was.
Sure. But how long ago was that? And how different is the pharma industry now from those days?
Quote from: #UnleashJayce on May 05, 2020, 04:38:09 PM
Have some faith brother. The polio vaccine was.
That's because the scientists the created it refused any patent rights, saying it belonged to the people.
That ain't happening here, which is why all these big companies are racing to be first.
Quote from: forgetful on May 05, 2020, 05:20:14 PM
That's because the scientists the created it refused any patent rights, saying it belonged to the people.
That ain't happening here, which is why all these big companies are racing to be first.
The fact that Pharma companies are racing to be first is also why there will be a vaccine way quicker than if we just let the government try to figure it out - or if there was no profit involved.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 05, 2020, 06:09:42 PM
The fact that Pharma companies are racing to be first is also why there will be a vaccine way quicker than if we just let the government try to figure it out - or if there was no profit involved.
The government is the one paying all the companies to do this right now. So not sure your point is true. Most of the technology they are all using was also paid for with government money.
Quote from: forgetful on May 05, 2020, 06:51:11 PM
The government is the one paying all the companies to do this right now. So not sure your point is true. Most of the technology they are all using was also paid for with government money.
Socialize the expense, capitalize the profit.
Blood thinners.
Quote from: tower912 on May 07, 2020, 07:18:10 PM
Blood thinners.
interesting was it not said early on to avoid them as they make it worse?
https://news.yahoo.com/blood-thinners-could-help-coronavirus-142158406.html
Clotting is a symptom in some more extreme cases.
Quote from: injuryBug on May 07, 2020, 08:14:32 PM
interesting was it not said early on to avoid them as they make it worse?
I thought ibuprofen was I'd earlier. I think disproved but not certain. I didn't see blood thinners listed as something that made it worse.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 07, 2020, 08:23:02 PM
I thought ibuprofen was I'd earlier. I think disproved but not certain. I didn't see blood thinners listed as something that made it worse.
i guess that is what i was thinking of. People just need to be smart and not rush things. Each day we find out more and more about this virus and will be able to help more and more people just need to give it some time
Excellent news
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/health/coronavirus-antibody-prevalence.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytnational
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what's come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.
Quote from: JWags85 on May 10, 2020, 06:11:59 PM
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what's come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.
Don't know for sure, but I'd suggest contacting one of the hospitals associated with MCW, like maybe Froedtert. I know they are participating in the national study that is treating people with convalescent plasma, so they might be a reasonable place to start.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on May 10, 2020, 06:28:17 PM
Don't know for sure, but I'd suggest contacting one of the hospitals associated with MCW, like maybe Froedtert. I know they are participating in the national study that is treating people with convalescent plasma, so they might be a reasonable place to start.
^ that
Quote from: JWags85 on May 10, 2020, 06:11:59 PM
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what's come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.
Got mine at uw Madison before kidney transplant
Quote from: GooooMarquette on May 10, 2020, 06:28:17 PM
Don't know for sure, but I'd suggest contacting one of the hospitals associated with MCW, like maybe Froedtert. I know they are participating in the national study that is treating people with convalescent plasma, so they might be a reasonable place to start.
Appreciated. Will let him know
Quote from: JWags85 on May 10, 2020, 06:11:59 PM
Any recommendations on where to get an antibody test in SE WI? My father had some COVID-like symptoms early in 2020 after Asian travel. Could be a coincidence, but given what's come out about the timeline of COVID stretching back into 2019, it makes sense to look into it.
https://www.arcpointlabs.com/covid-19-antibody-testing/ (https://www.arcpointlabs.com/covid-19-antibody-testing/)
https://www.questdiagnostics.com/home/Covid-19/ (https://www.questdiagnostics.com/home/Covid-19/)
Why I'm not buying Gilead on the Remdesivir news:
Early on I had posted that Remdesivir was the most likely drug to work against SARS. But the problem with Remdesivir, is the same problem it had with Ebola. It works, but not great. It got pushed aside in the Ebola pandemic, because monoclonal antibodies proved to be far more effective in treatment.
I think that is the same fate for SARS. It is going to be a hold-over treatment until monoclonal antibodies come on line in September-November window. Then it will be pushed aside and placed back on the shelves.
The window of time it can be monetized is very narrow.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/05/12/coronavirus-nanobio-protect-nasal-antiseptic-bluewillow-biologics/5175988002/
My gut says hokum, but there is just enough there to intrigue me.
Quote from: tower912 on May 12, 2020, 07:02:40 AM
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/05/12/coronavirus-nanobio-protect-nasal-antiseptic-bluewillow-biologics/5175988002/
My gut says hokum, but there is just enough there to intrigue me.
I just don't see the benefit. It isn't going to stop infection. It may be mildly unsafe.
Then there is this story.
If there was a real pandemic response team the'd be sourcing these items now (or a workable replacement) and putting in stock.
The 'biggest challenge' won't come until after a coronavirus vaccine is found
The nation's supply chain isn't anywhere close to ready.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 12, 2020, 08:39:05 AM
Then there is this story.
If there was a real pandemic response team the'd be sourcing these items now (or a workable replacement) and putting in stock.
The 'biggest challenge' won't come until after a coronavirus vaccine is found
The nation's supply chain isn't anywhere close to ready.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450
Trump said he can get the team back very quickly. Also, there is no need for them when you have Jared and his crack team of volunteers.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 12, 2020, 08:39:05 AM
Then there is this story.
If there was a real pandemic response team the'd be sourcing these items now (or a workable replacement) and putting in stock.
The 'biggest challenge' won't come until after a coronavirus vaccine is found
The nation's supply chain isn't anywhere close to ready.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/11/coronavirus-vaccine-supply-shortages-245450)
I'd read that yesterday .. this is not rocket science. The world will need several billion doses of the vaccine.
If someone isn't working on getting several billion vials, rubber stoppers and syringes .. that would be absolute insanity.
The hard part is the vaccine. Rubber stoppers better be easy in comparison, or we're in a world of hurt.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on May 12, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
I'd read that yesterday .. this is not rocket science. The world will need several billion doses of the vaccine.
If someone isn't working on getting several billion vials, rubber stoppers and syringes .. that would be absolute insanity.
The hard part is the vaccine. Rubber stoppers better be easy in comparison, or we're in a world of hurt.
Rubber stoppers can still fail, yo.
Is your mama a llama?
A potential problem for vaccine production, is that the large scale abilities to produce the vaccines is largely in India.
If this is really bad when the vaccines are online, we may see India refuse to ship vaccines until their 1B+ population is vaccinated.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on May 12, 2020, 10:58:31 AM
I'd read that yesterday .. this is not rocket science. The world will need several billion doses of the vaccine.
If someone isn't working on getting several billion vials, rubber stoppers and syringes .. that would be absolute insanity.
The hard part is the vaccine. Rubber stoppers better be easy in comparison, or we're in a world of hurt.
I think this administration has shown that it is rocket science. I see no reason to expect they can get it right.
The military should be put in charge of this and Jared should be sent to his room. Just as General Honore was put in charge of the Katrina mess after Bush totally screwed the pooch. And he must be given full authority to order private business to gear up to produce whatever is necessary in the quantities that are necessary.
Our leader has made it clear that he wants no part of what the rest of the world is doing vaccine-wise. We are truly on our own here. And the one true thing we know is that our current leader(s) are not up to the task.
I did not get a chance to post yesterday.
New York Times daily email had info on COVID-19 vaccine development.
Why vaccines are so slow
Early news about medical treatments — like yesterday's announcement that a coronavirus vaccine has shown positive results in eight people — can feel both exciting and frustrating.
The frustrating part is the timing. Even if all continues to go well with the research into this vaccine, it won't be available until late this year or early next year. Between now and then, the vaccine will have to endure two more research trials, one involving hundreds of people and the other involving thousands.
Given the virus's terrible toll, that long process can seem strangely lacking in urgency. But scientists insist that it isn't. Here are the key reasons they say that there are no easy or fast routes to a vaccine:
Early results don't always stand. In 2015, the French drug company Sanofi began selling the first vaccine for dengue. The drug had made it through multiple research trials — although some researchers believed Sanofi had ignored worrisome signs. Sure enough, as children in the Philippines began using it, some contracted an even worse form of dengue. Today, use of the vaccine is highly restricted.
In recent testimony, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's top infectious-disease expert, noted that a coronavirus vaccine could suffer from the same problem.
The larger point is that drugs that look good in small, initial studies often look less good when they're tested in more people.
Side effects matter. A vaccine doesn't merely need to work, as Katie Thomas, a Times reporter covering pharmaceuticals, explained to me. It needs not to have side effects that cause more damage than the virus itself.
This coronavirus seems to kill only a small percentage of people who get it. The side effects have the potential to do more damage, because any coronavirus vaccine will be given to billions of people, including many with underlying health problems.
Politics matter, too. Vaccines are the subject of frequent conspiracy theories and falsehoods. Given this skepticism, a coronavirus vaccine that did more harm than good could cause much broader damage.
It could lead people around the world to stop taking vaccines that actually work. That's what happened in the Philippines after the dengue scandal.
All of which is a reminder that promising early results — like yesterday's — often prove fleeting. Only about 10 percent of drugs that clear the first research phase ultimately make it to market.
Even yesterday's results may not be as awesome as first thought. Keep sciencing.
It is interesting to see different reactions to vaccine data. Today a published vaccine trial from China showed 50% developed neutralizing antibodies. Some side effects of fever.
The Moderna vaccine showed less than 20% developed neutralizing antibodies.
Experts are saying the fact that only 50% developed neutralizing antibodies, indicates that the Chinese trial should be ended, and they should move on to a different candidate vaccine. The Moderna results were cheered as ground breaking, and evidence it should be fast-tracked to phase 2 and 3 trials.
Very odd and different reactions. I'm stealing Tower's line, keep sciencing.
Quote from: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 12:15:32 PM
It is interesting to see different reactions to vaccine data. Today a published vaccine trial from China showed 50% developed neutralizing antibodies. Some side effects of fever.
The Moderna vaccine showed less than 20% developed neutralizing antibodies.
Experts are saying the fact that only 50% developed neutralizing antibodies, indicates that the Chinese trial should be ended, and they should move on to a different candidate vaccine. The Moderna results were cheered as ground breaking, and evidence it should be fast-tracked to phase 2 and 3 trials.
Very odd and different reactions. I'm stealing Tower's line, keep sciencing.
To me, I'd keep the Chinese trial on track and admit that 50% isn't ideal, but if it's the best we have we go with it.
Moderna is a corporation, and the results are there to pump stock numbers.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 22, 2020, 12:36:14 PM
To me, I'd keep the Chinese trial on track and admit that 50% isn't ideal, but if it's the best we have we go with it.
Moderna is a corporation, and the results are there to pump stock numbers.
Honestly, if the worst case scenario is we have a vaccine that is 20-50% effective, and has low side effects, I think most of us would lineup to get it.
That's one of the reasons I think we see a vaccine this winter. It may not be ideal/perfect, but they will be better than nothing.
Quote from: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 01:45:00 PM
Honestly, if the worst case scenario is we have a vaccine that is 20-50% effective, and has low side effects, I think most of us would lineup to get it.
That's one of the reasons I think we see a vaccine this winter. It may not be ideal/perfect, but they will be better than nothing.
Maybe, but the side effects better be next to nothing, and there will have to be a heck of a PR campaign that the science is sure as sure can be that there won't be any late-developing side effects. I don't fancy myself an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination, but as a healthy guy with basically no covid comorbities, rolling up my sleve for something that was fast tracked, that was first tested on humans no more than six months before i get it, and is "not ideal/perfect" scares the hell out of me.
Quote from: MUBurrow on May 22, 2020, 02:08:10 PM
Maybe, but the side effects better be next to nothing, and there will have to be a heck of a PR campaign that the science is sure as sure can be that there won't be any late-developing side effects. I don't fancy myself an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination, but as a healthy guy with basically no covid comorbities, rolling up my sleve for something that was fast tracked, that was first tested on humans no more than six months before i get it, and is "not ideal/perfect" scares the hell out of me.
Totally agree. Whether the drug provides 20%, 50% or even more immunity, my concern with fast-tracking a drug is that they may miss significant side effects that only become apparent once given to millions of people (
see, e.g., Vioxx, Accutane, Seldane, etc).
Like you, I am absolutely NOT an anti-vaxxer, but I would take my time before getting any fast-tracked COVID vaccine.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 22, 2020, 12:36:14 PM
To me, I'd keep the Chinese trial on track and admit that 50% isn't ideal, but if it's the best we have we go with it.
Moderna is a corporation, and the results are there to pump stock numbers.
Moderna issued equity following the announcement.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on May 22, 2020, 04:18:04 PM
Totally agree. Whether the drug provides 20%, 50% or even more immunity, my concern with fast-tracking a drug is that they may miss significant side effects that only become apparent once given to millions of people (see, e.g., Vioxx, Accutane, Seldane, etc).
Like you, I am absolutely NOT an anti-vaxxer, but I would take my time before getting any fast-tracked COVID vaccine.
I am in the same boat - along with millions of others I would think. The reason an average vaccine takes around 10 years to get to market is because of extensive Human trials that need to be run to ensure 1) safety (most important), and 2) proper dosages for all ages.
Kinda hard to know if there are long term negative effects if a drug is only tested for a few months.
Quote from: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 01:45:00 PM
Honestly, if the worst case scenario is we have a vaccine that is 20-50% effective, and has low side effects, I think most of us would lineup to get it.
That's one of the reasons I think we see a vaccine this winter. It may not be ideal/perfect, but they will be better than nothing.
Aren't flu vaccines sometimes only 50% effective?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 22, 2020, 06:53:33 PM
Aren't flu vaccines sometimes only 50% effective?
Yes, because sometimes we guess the wrong strains. But it proves the point that a 50% effective vaccine can be very beneficial.
Obviously we need to make sure that there are no major side effects. But if the side effects are a headache and possibly low grade fever as has been reported in the Chinese trial, I'll take them for 50% effectiveness.
Quote from: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 07:04:24 PM
Yes, because sometimes we guess the wrong strains. But it proves the point that a 50% effective vaccine can be very beneficial.
Obviously we need to make sure that there are no major side effects. But if the side effects are a headache and possibly low grade fever as has been reported in the Chinese trial, I'll take them for 50% effectiveness.
What degree of concern would you have, if any, about the safety given the severely shortened timeframe to market?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 30, 2020, 11:12:06 AM
Biden isn't the POTUS, and isn't making false statements about COVID on a daily basis.
Nor should he be. He's too busy figuring out how to beat himself and can now tell the color of one's skin just by knowing who they voted for. You're in good hands with Allstate, aina? 🤯
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 22, 2020, 07:58:51 PM
Nor should be. He's too busy figuring out how to beat himself and can now tell the color of one's skin just by knowing who they voted for. You're in good hands with Allstate, aina? 🤯
Has he called Nazis and Klansmen good people yet?
Wouldn't be counting on Moderna's vaccine. If it really was promising, execs wouldn't be dumping stock.
Moderna unveiled encouraging coronavirus vaccine results. Then top execs dumped nearly $30 million of stock
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 22, 2020, 08:03:47 PM
Has he called Nazis and Klansmen good people yet?
Too senile and demented for that.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 22, 2020, 08:16:22 PM
Wouldn't be counting on Moderna's vaccine. If it really was promising, execs wouldn't be dumping stock.
Moderna unveiled encouraging coronavirus vaccine results. Then top execs dumped nearly $30 million of stock
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html
Well I guess this answers my question of why they rushed an announcement without the trial even being fully analyzed yet.
Quote from: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 08:22:07 PM
Well I guess this answers my question of why they rushed an announcement without the trial even being fully analyzed yet.
And then there is this.
Established in 2010, Moderna has never brought a product to market, or gotten any of its nine or so vaccine candidates approved for use by the FDA. It has also never brought a product to the third and final phase of a clinical trial.
Quote from: forgetful on May 22, 2020, 07:04:24 PM
Yes, because sometimes we guess the wrong strains. But it proves the point that a 50% effective vaccine can be very beneficial.
Obviously we need to make sure that there are no major side effects. But if the side effects are a headache and possibly low grade fever as has been reported in the Chinese trial, I'll take them for 50% effectiveness.
What about possible long-term risks that would never be seen in a several week trial? As you well know, drugs often have consequences that don't show up for months to years.
If this gets approved by the end of the year (which would mean less than 6 months for phase II and III trials combined), we wouldn't have any idea...
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 22, 2020, 07:58:51 PM
Nor should he be. He's too busy figuring out how to beat himself and can now tell the color of one's skin just by knowing who they voted for. You're in good hands with Allstate, aina? 🤯
I mean, you're not wrong.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 22, 2020, 08:47:21 PM
I mean, you're not wrong.
I've heard that some of the best people love our current president.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on May 22, 2020, 10:12:48 PM
I've heard that some of the best people love our current president.
Some? All of our best people love him. And everyone else, too.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on May 22, 2020, 10:12:48 PM
I've heard that some of the best people love our current president.
Been the best president in my lifetime.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 22, 2020, 10:24:08 PM
Some? All of our best people love him. And everyone else, too.
LOL. Thanks Lenny.
Well in advance, lets remember this long weekend is to thank those who have given their lives so that we can debate stupid crap here. Brave men sent to battle. Answered that call no matter the cause. Bless them and their kin.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on May 22, 2020, 11:19:30 PM
LOL. Thanks Lenny.
Well in advance, lets remember this long weekend is to thank those who have given their lives so that we can debate stupid crap here. Brave men sent to battle. Answered that call no matter the cause. Bless them and their kin.
My 95 year old WWII vet dad thanks you for knowing that this holiday honors those that gave their lives, rather than honoring all veterans. One of his only pet peeves.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 22, 2020, 11:29:17 PM
My 95 year old WWII vet dad thanks you for knowing that this holiday honors those that gave their lives, rather than honoring all veterans. One of his only pet peeves.
"Happy Memorial day" is one of the biggest cringe moments going.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 22, 2020, 11:29:17 PM
My 95 year old WWII vet dad thanks you for knowing that this holiday honors those that gave their lives, rather than honoring all veterans. One of his only pet peeves.
Hard to forget. Decades ago I was one of those cub scouts placing flags on graves in our town.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 22, 2020, 11:47:27 PM
"Happy Memorial day" is one of the biggest cringe moments going.
I'll debate that too. While there's not much "happy" about the "holiday", most American workers work VERY hard just for a single holiday between New Years day and Independence day. Some excitement for a government holiday weekend is understandable in an otherwise 6 month drought of "free" days off of work. It's not the spirit of the day, but understandable.
Now back to your Vaccine/Antibody updates.
The meaning of Memorial Day is .. just not common (enough) knowledge. I was unaware until I was about ~45 years old and became involved in a Memorial Day ceremony. Had zero idea until then.
Since this thread has digressed to Memorial Day, I will throw this out there:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/30/amvets-scraps-plans-rolling-thunder-style-memorial-day-run-dc.html
AMVETS has scrapped plans to carry on the Rolling Thunder tradition in Washington, D.C. this Memorial Day because of the coronavirus restrictions on large gatherings, but pledged to hold similar events next year.
...
He stressed that action by AMVETS was not a formal "cancellation." Instead, AMVETS will sponsor virtual events during the Memorial Day weekend on the POW-MIA issue and other veterans' causes and also promote a "Rolling To Remember" challenge.
The challenge is for those with motorcycles to ride 22 miles wherever they are on Sunday, May 24, the day before Memorial Day, to call attention to the average of 20-22 veteran suicides daily, Chenelly said.
————————
Kind of a cool (and safer) way to continue a nice tradition in the time of Covid.
On the negative news side. The British vaccine that they were claiming could be ready by fall, and is already being mass produced, may not be that effective.
Despite resulting in neutralizing antibodies, the vaccine did not prevent Monkeys from being able to be infected with COVID and be able to spread the disease.
There claim of "positive results" in monkeys, was because none of the monkeys (very few) got viral pneumonia. The problem is, results are usually much better in monkeys than humans. So not so promising.
That also means that the neutralizing antibodies being produced in these other trials, may also be incapable of preventing infection and spread.
Quote from: forgetful on May 23, 2020, 11:46:20 PM
On the negative news side. The British vaccine that they were claiming could be ready by fall, and is already being mass produced, may not be that effective.
Despite resulting in neutralizing antibodies, the vaccine did not prevent Monkeys from being able to be infected with COVID and be able to spread the disease.
There claim of "positive results" in monkeys, was because none of the monkeys (very few) got viral pneumonia. The problem is, results are usually much better in monkeys than humans. So not so promising.
That also means that the neutralizing antibodies being produced in these other trials, may also be incapable of preventing infection and spread.
Ugh. Not good. This is why I am skeptical that we can find an effective vaccine and mass-produce it in time for widespread distribution within a year or less.
First, there are so many scientific hurdles - like showing that it produces antibodies, showing that they can actually prevent the disease in some significant percentage of vaccinated individuals, and showing that there aren't significant side effects (and knowing anything about long-term side effects in a couple of three-month studies). One narrow path to success, but so many opportunities for failure.
Then overlay the production issue. Our supposed solution is to ramp up production of the most promising candidates, so we have a few hundred million doses ready to go. But it wouldn't be economically feasible to do that with every possible candidate, so we have to gamble by making "educated guesses" on the ones we think have the best chance of running the gauntlet.
It is a noble and necessary goal, but a longshot at best....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on May 24, 2020, 10:24:20 AM
Ugh. Not good. This is why I am skeptical that we can find an effective vaccine and mass-produce it in time for widespread distribution within a year or less.
First, there are so many scientific hurdles - like showing that it produces antibodies, showing that they can actually prevent the disease in some significant percentage of vaccinated individuals, and showing that there aren't significant side effects (and knowing anything about long-term side effects in a couple of three-month studies). One narrow path to success, but so many opportunities for failure.
Then overlay the production issue. Our supposed solution is to ramp up production of the most promising candidates, so we have a few hundred million doses ready to go. But it wouldn't be economically feasible to do that with every possible candidate, so we have to gamble by making "educated guesses" on the ones we think have the best chance of running the gauntlet.
It is a noble and necessary goal, but a longshot at best....
I think we essentially have to take a gamble on scaling up the most promising candidates, but think it is also pretty much putting your last 5 dollars on a long-shot, in hopes of saving your house/business. It might work, but it has a lot of possibility for failure.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/24/coronavirus-vaccine-china-gottlieb-276763
This is the attitude that scares me about vaccines in development. We are viewing this as a race/competition against China. The world should be looking at this in unison.
What is interesting, is scientists are being the most transparent in human history, publishing breaking results immediately in open archives. So that we can all build off each other. The politicians are using this as a competition. That will result in a rushed vaccine that very likely could be risky, depending on if it is driven by the politician or the scientist. There is then also propaganda.
The Chinese vaccine that they discuss as being inferior and behind, published their preliminary results in the Lancet, peer reviewed. Moderna and Oxford have not. Oxfords is currently available in one of the archives (non peer reviewed). A casual examination of the three, says China's is ahead in effectiveness, but has mild side effects. Oxfords, was unable to prevent infection in monkeys. Moderna's had extremely low neutralizing antibody levels.
It really would be nice if the world worked together. That is our best chance for a safe effective vaccine.
Sadly, that is impossible in today's world.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 24, 2020, 12:49:46 PM
Sadly, that is impossible in today's world.
The rest of the world did agree to work together. Only one major nation abstained from that effort.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-usa/u-s-says-will-not-take-part-in-who-global-drugs-vaccine-initiative-launch-idUSKCN2261WJ
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-absent-global-conference-raise-money-coronavirus-vaccine/story?id=70493681
That same major nation has been trying to poach the top scientists, to corner the market on therapies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/world/europe/cornonavirus-vaccine-us-germany.html
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 22, 2020, 10:26:07 PM
Been the best president in my lifetime.
I place him second behind Ronaldus Magnus who was one of the greatest in the proud history of this noble Republic.
Quote from: forgetful on May 24, 2020, 01:41:05 PM
The rest of the world did agree to work together. Only one major nation abstained from that effort.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-usa/u-s-says-will-not-take-part-in-who-global-drugs-vaccine-initiative-launch-idUSKCN2261WJ
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-absent-global-conference-raise-money-coronavirus-vaccine/story?id=70493681
That same major nation has been trying to poach the top scientists, to corner the market on therapies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/world/europe/cornonavirus-vaccine-us-germany.html
Agreed. It is unfortunate that our current leader seems to see an advantage in putting us against the rest of the world.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 22, 2020, 10:24:08 PM
Some? All of our best people love him. And everyone else, too.
Realpolitik.
Yes, please.
America first.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 22, 2020, 11:47:27 PM
"Happy Memorial day" is one of the biggest cringe moments going.
@realDonaldTrump: HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!
Quote from: Pakuni on May 25, 2020, 07:25:13 AM
@realDonaldTrump: HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY!
I pity the people that have been conned by President Pandemic into thinking he remotely cares about them. Those being conned can rarely ever see it as it happens.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on May 25, 2020, 07:48:15 AM
I pity the people that have been conned by President Pandemic into thinking he remotely cares about them. Those being conned can rarely ever see it as it happens.
See, e.g., several of the posts from the geriatrics above. In order to resist the creeping notion they've been duped, they can only echo "America first" pitifully into their bowl of morning oats.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on May 25, 2020, 09:11:14 AM
See, e.g., several of the posts from the geriatrics above. In order to resist the creeping notion they've been duped, they can only echo "America first" pitifully into their bowl of morning oats.
Easier to con a man than for him to admit he's been conned.
Quote from: keefe on May 24, 2020, 02:04:33 PM
I place him second behind Ronaldus Magnus who was one of the greatest in the proud history of this noble Republic.
As James Mattis said, "I earned my spurs on the battlefield; Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor".
Of course Mattis was a man of honor. Trump's supporters can never claim that mantle.
So even if we get a vaccine, only half of Americans say they would get one.
https://apnews.com/dacdc8bc428dd4df6511bfa259cfec44
The people who say no or aren't sure are probably a combination of anti-vaxxers, people who still think "it's all a hoax," and people like me who always get recommended vaccines, but are concerned about long-term side effects that could be missed by speeding through this too quickly.
We need everyone to take social distancing more seriously, even if we keep ramping up the economy.
I'll take two!
I will as soon as one is available.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on May 27, 2020, 07:38:55 PM
So even if we get a vaccine, only half of Americans say they would get one.
https://apnews.com/dacdc8bc428dd4df6511bfa259cfec44
The people who say no or aren't sure are probably a combination of anti-vaxxers, people who still think "it's all a hoax," and people like me who always get recommended vaccines, but are concerned about long-term side effects that could be missed by speeding through this too quickly.
My decision on when to get it would depend on what mood Bill Gates is in, and what he'd make me do once I'm being controlled.
I'd likely wait to get it, to 1) let more vulnerable people have it and 2) make sure nothing goes wrong with it.
Quote from: MUfan12 on May 28, 2020, 10:57:08 AM
My decision on when to get it would depend on what mood Bill Gates is in, and what he'd make me do once I'm being controlled.
I'd likely wait to get it, to 1) let more vulnerable people have it and 2) make sure nothing goes wrong with it.
This. If someone's unemployed and needs to get back to work let them take it, let the vulnerable who are against the wall get it. My job was already three days a week from home and I can deal just running to Home Depot and the grocer for awhile longer while the vaccine is fine tuned.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 22, 2020, 08:16:22 PM
Wouldn't be counting on Moderna's vaccine. If it really was promising, execs wouldn't be dumping stock.
Moderna unveiled encouraging coronavirus vaccine results. Then top execs dumped nearly $30 million of stock
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html
Update:
Moderna's coronavirus vaccine announcement set off a frenzy on Wall Street. Now some are calling for an investigation
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/business/moderna-vaccine-stock-sales-invs/index.html
Just hours after revealing the promising vaccine results, Moderna (MRNA) sold 17.6 million shares to the public. That share sale, unveiled after the closing bell on May 18, was priced at $76; Moderna traded at just $48 as recently as May 6. The deal instantly raised $1.3 billion.
Days later, Moderna's leading shareholder, venture capital firm Flagship Pioneering, sold 1 million shares on May 21 and 22 at an average price of $69.47, according to filings reviewed by CNN Business. The sales raked in $69.5 million for the venture capital firm.
Flagship Pioneering was founded by Noubar Afeyan, the co-founder and chairman of Moderna. The VC firm owned nearly 51 million Moderna shares as of the end of March, according to the most recent filings.
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 01, 2020, 09:53:05 AM
Update:
Moderna's coronavirus vaccine announcement set off a frenzy on Wall Street. Now some are calling for an investigation
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/business/moderna-vaccine-stock-sales-invs/index.html
Just hours after revealing the promising vaccine results, Moderna (MRNA) sold 17.6 million shares to the public. That share sale, unveiled after the closing bell on May 18, was priced at $76; Moderna traded at just $48 as recently as May 6. The deal instantly raised $1.3 billion.
Days later, Moderna's leading shareholder, venture capital firm Flagship Pioneering, sold 1 million shares on May 21 and 22 at an average price of $69.47, according to filings reviewed by CNN Business. The sales raked in $69.5 million for the venture capital firm.
Flagship Pioneering was founded by Noubar Afeyan, the co-founder and chairman of Moderna. The VC firm owned nearly 51 million Moderna shares as of the end of March, according to the most recent filings.
Sad, but not uncommon at all. The rich remain rich because they have the advantage over others. There will never be a level playing field.
Quote from: Jockey on June 01, 2020, 03:39:56 PM
Sad, but not uncommon at all. The rich remain rich because they have the advantage over others. There will never be a level playing field.
Hmm.. whatever happened to the investigations of the congressional insider trading?
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 01, 2020, 04:49:45 PM
Hmm.. whatever happened to the investigations of the congressional insider trading?
It was dropped by DOJ for all except the NC senator that was critical of trump.
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 01, 2020, 04:49:45 PM
Hmm.. whatever happened to the investigations of the congressional insider trading?
Besides the NC senator, the DOJ investigated and didn't find a case.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/5/27/21271726/kelly-loeffler-senators-investigation-insider-trading (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/5/27/21271726/kelly-loeffler-senators-investigation-insider-trading)
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 02, 2020, 09:01:00 AM
It was dropped by DOJ for all except the NC senator that was critical of trump.
Good one! Your a genious.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 02, 2020, 11:04:46 AM
Good one! Your a genious.
Sometimes jokes write themselves.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 02, 2020, 12:03:08 PM
Sometimes jokes write themselves.
Apparently teal is still needed for smart people such as yourself.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 02, 2020, 12:07:38 PM
Apparently teal is still needed for smart people such as yourself.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlusteredCircularGalapagostortoise-max-1mb.gif)
Quote from: Pakuni on June 02, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlusteredCircularGalapagostortoise-max-1mb.gif)
Fair play.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 02, 2020, 12:03:08 PM
Sometimes jokes write themselves.
I see what you did there.
Scott Gottlieb's opinion on how fast a vaccine can progress. Interesting to not lose the over-arching goal -- convincing people to take the vaccine (trust).
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-fast-coronavirus-vaccine-without-cutting-corners-11590954444 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-fast-coronavirus-vaccine-without-cutting-corners-11590954444)
Ok, I'm fairly concerned about what is being said regarding vaccines by Fauci. He said today, that by the end of the year, there will be 100 million doses of one candidate vaccine. And then a couple 100 million doses in early 2021. Apparently that vaccine is the Moderna vaccine.
What concerns me is that hasn't been really fully tested yet. Moreover, looking at some of the vaccine candidates out there, it doesn't even strike me as the most promising, might not even be in the top 3 most promising. But we are putting all our eggs in that basket.
Something doesn't sound right about that.
Also, it pretty much guarantees they will push this vaccine, even if it isn't very effective. They will have little other option.
So why Moderna? They have failed at every vaccine/drug they've tried. Their data isn't that great. What is going on?
Quote from: forgetful on June 02, 2020, 10:03:23 PM
Ok, I'm fairly concerned about what is being said regarding vaccines by Fauci. He said today, that by the end of the year, there will be 100 million doses of one candidate vaccine. And then a couple 100 million doses in early 2021. Apparently that vaccine is the Moderna vaccine.
What concerns me is that hasn't been really fully tested yet. Moreover, looking at some of the vaccine candidates out there, it doesn't even strike me as the most promising, might not even be in the top 3 most promising. But we are putting all our eggs in that basket.
Something doesn't sound right about that.
Also, it pretty much guarantees they will push this vaccine, even if it isn't very effective. They will have little other option.
So why Moderna? They have failed at every vaccine/drug they've tried. Their data isn't that great. What is going on?
Yep. Completely understandable that they would manufacture the most promising vaccines ahead of time...but I share your concern with the Moderna vaccine being one of them. Hopefully they are making similar manufacturing arrangements with makers of more promising candidates.
If the Moderna is approved and released first, they may very well have a hard time convincing people to take it.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on June 02, 2020, 10:10:27 PM
Yep. Completely understandable that they would manufacture the most promising vaccines ahead of time...but I share your concern with the Moderna vaccine being one of them. Hopefully they are making similar manufacturing arrangements with makers of more promising candidates.
If the Moderna is approved and released first, they may very well have a hard time convincing people to take it.
I agree. Planning to mass manufacture the most promising vaccine ahead of time was a great idea. It is one of the things I thought that was forward thinking by the administration. I'm hoping that CNN misquoted him, saying that it was Moderna's vaccine that was going to be mass produced, and what he really meant/said was that the best candidate will be mass produced.
I'm just concerned, because people, including Trump and Fauci, seem politically and intellectually invested in Moderna's vaccine. I now fear it gets pushed regardless of which is best.
Quote from: forgetful on June 02, 2020, 10:03:23 PM
Ok, I'm fairly concerned about what is being said regarding vaccines by Fauci. He said today, that by the end of the year, there will be 100 million doses of one candidate vaccine. And then a couple 100 million doses in early 2021. Apparently that vaccine is the Moderna vaccine.
What concerns me is that hasn't been really fully tested yet. Moreover, looking at some of the vaccine candidates out there, it doesn't even strike me as the most promising, might not even be in the top 3 most promising. But we are putting all our eggs in that basket.
Something doesn't sound right about that.
Also, it pretty much guarantees they will push this vaccine, even if it isn't very effective. They will have little other option.
So why Moderna? They have failed at every vaccine/drug they've tried. Their data isn't that great. What is going on?
What's the worst that could happen? They had great results with ordering those masks from the company that never made them before.
Quote from: forgetful on June 02, 2020, 10:27:44 PM
I agree. Planning to mass manufacture the most promising vaccine ahead of time was a great idea. It is one of the things I thought that was forward thinking by the administration. I'm hoping that CNN misquoted him, saying that it was Moderna's vaccine that was going to be mass produced, and what he really meant/said was that the best candidate will be mass produced.
I'm just concerned, because people, including Trump and Fauci, seem politically and intellectually invested in Moderna's vaccine. I now fear it gets pushed regardless of which is best.
The most promising candidates seem to be from China and England. That shouldn't be a factor - I sure
hope it isn't- but you never know.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on June 02, 2020, 11:10:20 PM
The most promising candidates seem to be from China and England. That shouldn't be a factor - I sure hope it isn't- but you never know.
It certainly will be on who gets the vaccine first, as it will take years to create enough of them.
Quote from: forgetful on June 02, 2020, 10:27:44 PM
I agree. Planning to mass manufacture the most promising vaccine ahead of time was a great idea. It is one of the things I thought that was forward thinking by the administration. I'm hoping that CNN misquoted him, saying that it was Moderna's vaccine that was going to be mass produced, and what he really meant/said was that the best candidate will be mass produced.
I'm just concerned, because people, including Trump and Fauci, seem politically and intellectually invested in Moderna's vaccine. I now fear it gets pushed regardless of which is best.
Sounds like Fauci mis-spoke or maybe a misinterpretation what he was saying.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 04, 2020, 09:37:22 AM
Sounds like Fauci mis-spoke or maybe a misinterpretation what he was saying.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html)
I'm glad they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket...but I think it's unfortunate that Chinese companies CanSino and Sinovac aren't on the list, as they have two of the most promising candidates IMHO.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 04, 2020, 09:37:22 AM
Sounds like Fauci mis-spoke or maybe a misinterpretation what he was saying.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-moderna.html)
Very glad to hear that.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on June 04, 2020, 01:21:56 PM
I'm glad they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket...but I think it's unfortunate that Chinese companies CanSino and Sinovac aren't on the list, as they have two of the most promising candidates IMHO.
And agreed.
If this holds it doesn't bode well for ever achieving herd immunity.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 22, 2020, 07:37:07 AM
If this holds it doesn't bode well for ever achieving herd immunity.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/coronavirus-antibodies-may-last-only-2-to-3-months-after-infection-study-suggests.html)
I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate. I've seen a few estimates about what % of the population has been infected so far and no country is close to herd immunity, even if getting sick meant that you would be immune forever. With COVID's R0 at a currently estimated ~5.5, we would need 85% of the population to become immune before cases stop dropping on their own (assuming no treatment and no vaccine, which is where we'll be for the next 6+ months).
This isn't the best source for % of each country's population infected, but it's easy to read and it's in the ballpark of what I've read elsewhere.
(https://images.newscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/17143834/200620_n_seroprevalanceweb.jpg)
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 22, 2020, 07:46:36 AM
I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate. I've seen a few estimates about what % of the population has been infected so far and no country is close to herd immunity, even if getting sick meant that you would be immune forever. With COVID's R0 at a currently estimated ~5.5, we would need 85% of the population to become immune before cases stop dropping on their own (assuming no treatment and no vaccine, which is where we'll be for the next 6+ months).
This isn't the best source for % of each country's population infected, but it's easy to read and it's in the ballpark of what I've read elsewhere.
I agree with your judgement, but I heard it as recently as this weekend from a state leader in the south. So a not small percent of people think having the young people get the disease is a 'good thing'.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 22, 2020, 07:49:52 AM
I agree with your judgment, but I heard it as recently as this weekend from a state leader in the south. So a not small percent of people think having the young people get the disease is a 'good thing'.
Hah! I stand by my statement
> I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 22, 2020, 07:46:36 AM
I've only heard the herd immunity 'argument' from people that aren't scientifically literate. I've seen a few estimates about what % of the population has been infected so far and no country is close to herd immunity, even if getting sick meant that you would be immune forever. With COVID's R0 at a currently estimated ~5.5, we would need 85% of the population to become immune before cases stop dropping on their own (assuming no treatment and no vaccine, which is where we'll be for the next 6+ months).
This isn't the best source for % of each country's population infected, but it's easy to read and it's in the ballpark of what I've read elsewhere.
(https://images.newscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/17143834/200620_n_seroprevalanceweb.jpg)
Wow, Sweden's idea worked....well. ::)
Experimenting with radiation to treat patients on ventilators. Along the lines of an X-RAY blast.
I'm late to the game here, but that herd immunity graph contrasted against the dashboard directly above it is wild.
The UK has a population of 66.65 million. If estimates put contracting the virus at 25% (to use the closest round number) that would be 16,662,500 cases. And per the dashboard, the UK has had 309,456 confirmed cases as of this post. That would mean that 1.9% of cases are ever confirmed.
Doing that same math for the US at 5% of the population of a little over 328 million having contracted would be 16,410,000 cases and a confirmation rate of 14.8%.
I know I'm doing some rounding with the contraction percentages, but is the US doing that much better a job testing than the UK? And using the death numbers, are you really 3x more likely to die after contracting covid in the US vs the UK? Something seems off, those are some dramatic disparities.
Quote from: MUBurrow on June 26, 2020, 08:36:42 AM
I'm late to the game here, but that herd immunity graph contrasted against the dashboard directly above it is wild.
The UK has a population of 66.65 million. If estimates put contracting the virus at 25% (to use the closest round number) that would be 16,662,500 cases. And per the dashboard, the UK has had 309,456 confirmed cases as of this post. That would mean that 1.9% of cases are ever confirmed.
Doing that same math for the US at 5% of the population of a little over 328 million having contracted would be 16,410,000 cases and a confirmation rate of 14.8%.
I know I'm doing some rounding with the contraction percentages, but is the US doing that much better a job testing than the UK? And using the death numbers, are you really 3x more likely to die after contracting covid in the US vs the UK? Something seems off, those are some dramatic disparities.
The range is heavily dependent on which serological test results one uses. The antibody kits vary greatly in accuracy, and not all correct properly for statistics. I'd take those estimates with a grain of salt.
And there has been limited research on immunity and how long it lasts.
If it only lasts a few months.......
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 26, 2020, 09:31:02 AM
And there has been limited research on immunity and how long it lasts.
If it only lasts a few months.......
And there is some evidence that it does only last a couple months.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0965-6
And this case of a woman getting it twice 12-weeks apart.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-woman-battling-coronavirus-again/2389265/
Quote from: forgetful on June 26, 2020, 09:38:51 AM
And there is some evidence that it does only last a couple months.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0965-6
And this case of a woman getting it twice 12-weeks apart.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-woman-battling-coronavirus-again/2389265/
The other significant point - probably related to limited immunity - is that researchers appear to have identified two general categories of antibodies: those that show you have had COVID, and those that show you actually still have the capability to neutralize the virus. This distinction is behind Mayo Clinic offering two different serological tests.
https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-launches-neutralizing-antibody-test-to-advance-covid-19-therapies/
The new test measures the level of neutralizing antibodies against SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. Neutralizing antibodies are a subset of antibodies able to independently inactivate viruses, and are associated with protective immunity against re-infection for many infectious pathogens.
"The neutralizing antibody test is a critical addition to our COVID-19 testing, expanding on the capabilities of the molecular tests used to diagnose active infection and the serology test, which indicates previous infection by identifying antibodies for the SARS-CoV-2 virus," says William Morice, II, M.D., Ph.D., president of Mayo Clinic Laboratories. "This new test provides us with incredibly important information about how effective a person's antibodies are at neutralizing the virus. This will help us identify optimal convalescent plasma donors and ultimately help assess the efficacy of anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccines."
Pfizer vaccine - positive result.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/01/covid-19-vaccine-from-pfizer-and-biontech-shows-positive-results/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/01/covid-19-vaccine-from-pfizer-and-biontech-shows-positive-results/)
Public health experts in the U.K. and Australia have expressed alarm at the move by the U.S. to purchase almost the entire global supply of a drug to treat the coronavirus.
Remdesivir, made by Gilead was originally trialled during the Ebola epidemic and is the first drug that has been approved by licensing authorities in the U.S. to treat COVID-19 after trials showed that it helped some recover from the disease more quickly.
The Trump administration has purchased more than 500,000 doses, which is all of Gilead's production of the drug for this month and 90 percent of its projected supply for August and September. It is made under patent to Gilead, at a cost of around $3,200 per treatment of six doses for richer countries
Gilead should allow third parties to produce it then for a licesing fee. (If that's possible. I don't know.)
Quote from: Jockey on July 01, 2020, 04:06:35 PM
Public health experts in the U.K. and Australia have expressed alarm at the move by the U.S. to purchase almost the entire global supply of a drug to treat the coronavirus.
Remdesivir, made by Gilead was originally trialled during the Ebola epidemic and is the first drug that has been approved by licensing authorities in the U.S. to treat COVID-19 after trials showed that it helped some recover from the disease more quickly.
The Trump administration has purchased more than 500,000 doses, which is all of Gilead's production of the drug for this month and 90 percent of its projected supply for August and September. It is made under patent to Gilead, at a cost of around $3,200 per treatment of six doses for richer countries
I understand wanting to seek out all options for battling a pandemic. Whether hydroxy, remdesivir, whatever.
But why spend all this money and also not pursue other avenues. Especially masks?
Quote from: Jockey on July 01, 2020, 04:06:35 PM
Public health experts in the U.K. and Australia have expressed alarm at the move by the U.S. to purchase almost the entire global supply of a drug to treat the coronavirus.
Remdesivir, made by Gilead was originally trialled during the Ebola epidemic and is the first drug that has been approved by licensing authorities in the U.S. to treat COVID-19 after trials showed that it helped some recover from the disease more quickly.
The Trump administration has purchased more than 500,000 doses, which is all of Gilead's production of the drug for this month and 90 percent of its projected supply for August and September. It is made under patent to Gilead, at a cost of around $3,200 per treatment of six doses for richer countries
In addition to being a very selfish move by the administration, it might also come back and bite us in the a$$ if drugs or vaccines are developed by companies in other countries. Notably, the most promising vaccine candidates are made by Chinese companies. Might other countries band together and hoard initial supplies at our expense?
We have not taken part in collaborative efforts to develop treatments, we have pulled funding from the WHO, and now we're hoarding supplies of drugs. It would be hard to blame other countries from excluding us when their efforts pay off....
Moderna, which had previously announced that its Phase III trial would begin on July 9, announced a delay in the start date to make changes to the protocol. They still hope to begin before the end of July.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/02/trial-of-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-delayed-investigators-say-but-july-start-still-possible/
Not a huge surprise, and not necessarily a red flag. I have worked with IRBs reviewing clinical trials for years, and last-minute changes to study protocols are quite commonplace. Often they relate to safety measures, timetables for assessing side effects, informed consent issues, etc. The only truly 'bad' news is that a delay in this high-profile trial probably looks negative to the general public, and might end the hope to get this out (if approved) before the end of the year.
Moderna has never successfully brought a single product to market, right? Doesn't inspire confidence.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 02, 2020, 04:09:43 PM
Moderna has never successfully brought a single product to market, right? Doesn't inspire confidence.
Correct. Doesn't mean this won't be the one, but it certainly gives me pause.
My biggest concern is that the US seems to have put all its eggs on a few baskets...but specifically not the two Chinese vaccine candidates that I think are most promising.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on July 02, 2020, 05:13:13 PM
Correct. Doesn't mean this won't be the one, but it certainly gives me pause.
My biggest concern is that the US seems to have put all its eggs on a few baskets...but specifically not the two Chinese vaccine candidates that I think are most promising.
From what I have read this isn't this case. There are plenty in the race and the structure behind some of the Chinese vaccines are replicated by some American (And maybe Uk or eu) companies. The Comment I heard was they will either all work or they all won't.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 02, 2020, 05:15:01 PM
From what I have read this isn't this case. There are plenty in the race and the structure behind some of the Chinese vaccines are replicated by some American (And maybe Uk or eu) companies. The Comment I heard was they will either all work or they all won't.
It's possible that they will all work or they all won't...but if the vaccines aren't identical there will still be varying degrees of antibody response and side effects that could lead to some being noticeably better than others.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 02, 2020, 04:09:43 PM
Moderna has never successfully brought a single product to market, right? Doesn't inspire confidence.
Most of their revenue is from collabs with Merek, AstraZeneca, and Vertex. Basically, Moderna licensing the findings of their mRNA research (https://www.modernatx.com/modernas-mrna-technology) so that those companies can create and commercialize treatments based on it. They're a player fo sho.
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity
If true .. #EndTimes...
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 12, 2020, 09:21:01 AM
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity
If true .. #EndTimes...
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/69616c12f93ca31ac3d67d9c5475b5c4/tenor.gif)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 12, 2020, 09:21:01 AM
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity
If true .. #EndTimes...
Hm.. I don't doubt the
storyis true, but it is possible his first positive test result was a false positive (mild cough, sore throat) and he's actually got covid-19 now.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 12, 2020, 11:07:29 AM
Hm.. I don't doubt the storyis true, but it is possible his first positive test result was a false positive (mild cough, sore throat) and he's actually got covid-19 now.
I don't understand why there isn't more research on this. Maybe it is just that what you are saying is the accepted scenario. And hopefully accurate.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 12, 2020, 11:38:35 AM
I don't understand why there isn't more research on this. Maybe it is just that what you are saying is the accepted scenario. And hopefully accurate.
I think it's very difficult to research in people because it's not happening much (at all?). Also, those few that get it "a second time" don't have samples available from their first test / infection to verify.
The NIH had a study with 2 macaques monkeys (and other testing of patients), and determined reinfection is very unlikely. Though some patients can remain "sick" for a long time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7255905/
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 12, 2020, 11:07:29 AM
Hm.. I don't doubt the storyis true, but it is possible his first positive test result was a false positive (mild cough, sore throat) and he's actually got covid-19 now.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-woman-battling-coronavirus-again/2389265/
I think this case is the best evidence of multiple infections. Both times hospitalized. Not only positive tests both times, but positive antibody tests after the first bout (and donating plasma).
But the article says that her doctors don't believe it's a new infection. They believe that the virus went dormant and then re-emerged. Which is also not a good scenario.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on July 12, 2020, 12:30:52 PM
But the article says that her doctors don't believe it's a new infection. They believe that the virus went dormant and then re-emerged. Which is also not a good scenario.
I think this is because there is no obvious source of a 2nd transmission.
Regardless, the presence of antibodies did not grant protection. Whether it is re-emergence, or re-infection is a moot point in regards to undetectable levels of virus, and the inability of antibodies to protect from serious illness.
If antibodies don't confer immunity then the search for a vaccine is a fruitless effort and would also undermine most of what we know about virology in general. It's highly doubtful there isn't more to the story here.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on July 12, 2020, 01:31:12 PM
If antibodies don't confer immunity then the search for a vaccine is a fruitless effort and would also undermine most of what we know about virology in general. It's highly doubtful there isn't more to the story here.
Gooo has touched on this before, but there is a very specific type of antibody that is believed to generate some degree/form of immunity. The Mayo Clinic is working on a test for those antibodies, and some companies are manufacturing those antibodies as possible treatments.
So if you can develop a vaccine, that elicits a very high and long lasting degree of those antibodies, a vaccine may prove useful. Not all the vaccines currently in development are equivalent in developing these antibodies.
Quote from: forgetful on July 12, 2020, 02:53:39 PM
Gooo has touched on this before, but there is a very specific type of antibody that is believed to generate some degree/form of immunity. The Mayo Clinic is working on a test for those antibodies, and some companies are manufacturing those antibodies as possible treatments.
So if you can develop a vaccine, that elicits a very high and long lasting degree of those antibodies, a vaccine may prove useful. Not all the vaccines currently in development are equivalent in developing these antibodies.
That is still the current status as I understand it.
As you indicate, that doesn't make it impossible to develop a useful vaccine, but it greatly reduces the odds of coming up with one
soon.
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is leading a Trump administration effort to demand the Food and Drug Administration reverse course and grant a second emergency authorization for the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine to treat covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.
Quote from: Jockey on July 13, 2020, 11:20:26 AM
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is leading a Trump administration effort to demand the Food and Drug Administration reverse course and grant a second emergency authorization for the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine to treat covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.
Wtf.
Does someone in admin have ties to profit off this drug?
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 13, 2020, 12:42:30 PM
Wtf.
Does someone in admin have ties to profit off this drug?
https://www.propublica.org/article/republican-billionaire-group-pushes-unproven-covid-19-treatment-trump-promoted
https://theweek.com/speedreads/907277/trump-small-personal-financial-interest-hydroxycholorquine-drugmaker-allies-have-bigger-stakes
Quote from: Jockey on July 13, 2020, 11:20:26 AM
White House trade adviser Peter Navarro is leading a Trump administration effort to demand the Food and Drug Administration reverse course and grant a second emergency authorization for the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine to treat covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.
I'm just shocked that Navarro is doing something besides screaming and obsessing about China
Good news, but a long way to go.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/moderna-says-its-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-produced-robust-immune-response-in-all-patients.html
Quote from: BM1090 on July 14, 2020, 04:09:59 PM
Good news, but a long way to go.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/moderna-says-its-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-produced-robust-immune-response-in-all-patients.html
Good results, but I'm a bit confused. They say this is now the full data, but it seems to contradict some of their preliminary data released, where I don't believe they saw neutralizing antibodies in all groups. They also originally said due to side effects, they were going to cease the high-dose group/studies. But they report more and new results for that group.
I'll chalk that up to the prior release being incorrect, and solely to make money for the people that quickly sold options, and this release (which is suggested as peer reviewed), the more accurate one.
If so, good news.
Quote from: forgetful on July 14, 2020, 04:16:59 PM
Good results, but I'm a bit confused. They say this is now the full data, but it seems to contradict some of their preliminary data released, where I don't believe they saw neutralizing antibodies in all groups. They also originally said due to side effects, they were going to cease the high-dose group/studies. But they report more and new results for that group.
I'll chalk that up to the prior release being incorrect, and solely to make money for the people that quickly sold options, and this release (which is suggested as peer reviewed), the more accurate one.
If so, good news.
Agreed. If the numbers hold up and the study gets through Phase III trials without bad side effects, it would be a big step in the right direction.
https://apnews.com/e4d5259bfc6c74fcb090d885737c55a6?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
Update with quotes from Dr. Fauci and a few other doctors.
Quote from: BM1090 on July 14, 2020, 04:40:28 PM
https://apnews.com/e4d5259bfc6c74fcb090d885737c55a6?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow
Update with quotes from Dr. Fauci and a few other doctors.
Makes me feel better.
Good news and less good news regarding the vaccine hunt.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z?
Infections with the original SARS generates significant immunity 17-years later. Evidence that infection with other coronaviruses may also provide some protection, particularly other beta-coronaviruses. The immunity is driven by T-cells which recognize some of the non-structural proteins that are conserved between the viruses.
Less good news. The Moderna vaccine has a poor (or absent) T-cell response. It is suggested that this is by design, as previous SARS vaccines that drive a robust T-cell response have significant side effects. But if the more robust immunity is being driven by the T-cells, then the design strategy of Moderna may not function well, or be particularly durable. Hopefully worst case that means getting a vaccine every year.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022483?
Quote from: forgetful on July 15, 2020, 10:44:10 AM
Good news and less good news regarding the vaccine hunt.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z?
Infections with the original SARS generates significant immunity 17-years later. Evidence that infection with other coronaviruses may also provide some protection, particularly other beta-coronaviruses. The immunity is driven by T-cells which recognize some of the non-structural proteins that are conserved between the viruses.
Less good news. The Moderna vaccine has a poor (or absent) T-cell response. It is suggested that this is by design, as previous SARS vaccines that drive a robust T-cell response have significant side effects. But if the more robust immunity is being driven by the T-cells, then the design strategy of Moderna may not function well, or be particularly durable. Hopefully worst case that means getting a vaccine every year.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022483?
Or we start with #2 and later switch to a more robust vaccine for later shots.
Quote from: forgetful on July 15, 2020, 10:44:10 AM
Less good news. The Moderna vaccine has a poor (or absent) T-cell response. It is suggested that this is by design, as previous SARS vaccines that drive a robust T-cell response have significant side effects. But if the more robust immunity is being driven by the T-cells, then the design strategy of Moderna may not function well, or be particularly durable. Hopefully worst case that means getting a vaccine every year.
You had expressed concern earlier in this thread (though, could have been a similar thread) about Moderna's release of information very early in the process. There are legitimate reasons sometimes why companies get out in front of news stories.
Well you may be proven right. It sure seems like Moderna execs (i.e. insiders by SEC calculations) are doing a lot of selling of shares. That isn't so unusual.... a lot of reasons to sell shares (too big a portion of portfoliio, tax reasons, raise cash for a purchase of a house, etc.). What is suspicious though is very few insiders seem to be buying shares outside of option exercising. And only one reason to buy... knowing you will sell later at a higher price.
Perhaps the insiders know the news isn't all going to be good for them down the road?
This sounds good. I guess the Lancet will post data Monday.
https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html (https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
This sounds good. I guess the Lancet will post data Monday.
https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html (https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html)
Wow. Widely available in September? Is this far ahead of the Moderna vaccine?
Quote from: cheebs09 on July 16, 2020, 11:44:53 AM
Wow. Widely available in September? Is this far ahead of the Moderna vaccine?
It seems like they pump the brakes a bit on that later in the article. "most likely next year"
Quote from: MarquetteDano on July 15, 2020, 02:55:54 PM
You had expressed concern earlier in this thread (though, could have been a similar thread) about Moderna's release of information very early in the process. There are legitimate reasons sometimes why companies get out in front of news stories.
Well you may be proven right. It sure seems like Moderna execs (i.e. insiders by SEC calculations) are doing a lot of selling of shares. That isn't so unusual.... a lot of reasons to sell shares (too big a portion of portfoliio, tax reasons, raise cash for a purchase of a house, etc.). What is suspicious though is very few insiders seem to be buying shares outside of option exercising. And only one reason to buy... knowing you will sell later at a higher price.
Perhaps the insiders know the news isn't all going to be good for them down the road?
If I worked there I'd sell, Moderna hasn't had a profitable year yet. It's unlikely that producing a vaccine will be a windfall for any company, and this pandemic has been great marketing for Moderna's brand and stock. Also, they just went public late 2018 and this is the first time their stock popped (even though it was a pretty big IPO as far as biotechs go).
Their mRNA research hasn't yielded any marketable products yet, though other big boys in biotech have licensed their research which has generated a little revenue for them.
Again, no clear reason to buy or even hold Moderna unless you really believe that their mRNA research is going to turn them into a huge player. Right now their market cap is already 1/3 of Gilead's, which is a little nuts. Gilead prints money.
Quote from: cheebs09 on July 16, 2020, 11:44:53 AM
Wow. Widely available in September? Is this far ahead of the Moderna vaccine?
If it was actually available by September - yes, it would beat Moderna by at least six months.
My guess is that a cautiously optimistic estimate would be early 2021 for both...if everything goes well in their studies.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2020, 11:32:48 AM
This sounds good. I guess the Lancet will post data Monday.
https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html (https://news.yahoo.com/hopes-coronavirus-vaccine-boosted-reported-115924064.html)
IIRC, the Oxford group had a leg up because their vaccine had already previously been shown to be safe long term.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on July 15, 2020, 02:55:54 PM
You had expressed concern earlier in this thread (though, could have been a similar thread) about Moderna's release of information very early in the process. There are legitimate reasons sometimes why companies get out in front of news stories.
Well you may be proven right. It sure seems like Moderna execs (i.e. insiders by SEC calculations) are doing a lot of selling of shares. That isn't so unusual.... a lot of reasons to sell shares (too big a portion of portfoliio, tax reasons, raise cash for a purchase of a house, etc.). What is suspicious though is very few insiders seem to be buying shares outside of option exercising. And only one reason to buy... knowing you will sell later at a higher price.
Perhaps the insiders know the news isn't all going to be good for them down the road?
Skatastrophy already hit some of the main points.
The problem with vaccines is that they are not really profitable. If it works properly, you very quickly do not have much of a product to sell. The best case from a revenue perspective would be for this to need to be administered regularly (not a 1-off). But even then, there is so much competition right now, where they are all largely using similar technology, that no one will corner the market.
On top of that there are public pushes to minimize profit off these vaccines since they are so heavily financed by the taxpayer.
All that combines to leave Moderna few options for long-term growth/profits from these discoveries. So, cashing out now based on a bit of hysteria, makes a lot of sense.
It is also interesting to see, again, that right after Moderna releases this data, more promising results come out of other groups. In this case the Oxford studies, where they saw a robust T-cell response. That is promising in relation to other studies saying any long-term immunity will necessitate a robust T-cell response.
I'm just excited that we are seeing promising results from multiple efforts. A bit concerned about Moderna's safety profile though, especially when they put this in people over the age of 55 (haven't done so yet).
Wow. They look to be pursuing a challenge trial.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2020, 06:48:39 PM
Wow. They look to be pursuing a challenge trial.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/16/coronavirus-vaccine-oxford-team-volunteers-lab-controlled-human-challenge-trial)
Where do we sign up? I have a list of people I'd like to volunteer. ;D
Quote from: forgetful on July 16, 2020, 03:53:08 PM
Skatastrophy already hit some of the main points.
The problem with vaccines is that they are not really profitable. If it works properly, you very quickly do not have much of a product to sell. The best case from a revenue perspective would be for this to need to be administered regularly (not a 1-off). But even then, there is so much competition right now, where they are all largely using similar technology, that no one will corner the market.
On top of that there are public pushes to minimize profit off these vaccines since they are so heavily financed by the taxpayer.
All that combines to leave Moderna few options for long-term growth/profits from these discoveries. So, cashing out now based on a bit of hysteria, makes a lot of sense.
It is also interesting to see, again, that right after Moderna releases this data, more promising results come out of other groups. In this case the Oxford studies, where they saw a robust T-cell response. That is promising in relation to other studies saying any long-term immunity will necessitate a robust T-cell response.
I'm just excited that we are seeing promising results from multiple efforts. A bit concerned about Moderna's safety profile though, especially when they put this in people over the age of 55 (haven't done so yet).
Agreed on all points. I am much more optimistic about the Oxford vaccine because of the T-cell response you mentioned. Not that the Moderna one is doomed to failure, but it has a fair bit left to prove.
Not good, Bob.
Antibodies appear to be short-lived.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/With-coronavirus-antibodies-fading-fast-focus-15414533.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
Interesting discussion of getting immunity to the right point of the body. Our local Yale virologist is quoted.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html)
Quote from: Pakuni on July 17, 2020, 02:34:48 PM
Not good, Bob.
Antibodies appear to be short-lived.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/With-coronavirus-antibodies-fading-fast-focus-15414533.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
Everything I've read over the last week or so seems to point to this being an attention getting headline, but not exactly how things work. I guess we should not necessarily worry about this and immediately connect it to short lived immunity. More to come I'm sure.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 07:40:26 AM
Everything I've read over the last week or so seems to point to this being an attention getting headline, but not exactly how things work. I guess we should not necessarily worry about this and immediately connect it to short lived immunity. More to come I'm sure.
Agreed - this is not good news, as it increases the likelihood that it will take longer than we'd like to have this 'past' us. All the more reason to significantly pull back reopening in states seeing surges, and mandate masks and social distancing everywhere.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 17, 2020, 02:34:48 PM
Not good, Bob.
Antibodies appear to be short-lived.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/With-coronavirus-antibodies-fading-fast-focus-15414533.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity
Quote from: mufanatic on July 20, 2020, 08:50:34 AM
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/t-cells-found-covid-19-patients-bode-well-long-term-immunity
That's encouraging. One vaccine may be short lived but a t-cell one longer lasting.
https://www.cnn.com/webview/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-07-20-20-intl/h_92484624cf1b46c956eb665b422c7b09
Links and comment for the vaccine data released today (Oxford & CanSino)
https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21 (https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 09:31:02 AM
Links and comment for the vaccine data released today (Oxford & CanSino)
https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21 (https://twitter.com/drericding/status/1285210634032951299?s=21)
Right now these are the two vaccines I'm most excited/optimistic about. As I mentioned previously, their T-cell response (absent in the Modern vaccine candidate) is an important aspect of potential utility.
Quote from: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 10:53:55 AM
Right now these are the two vaccines I'm most excited/optimistic about. As I mentioned previously, their T-cell response (absent in the Modern vaccine candidate) is an important aspect of potential utility.
Step 2 is scale up
Step 3 is getting people injected (good luck with some folks)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 11:01:54 AM
Step 2 is scale up
Step 3 is getting people injected (good luck with some folks)
I still have concerns on what we will see in the phase 3 trials in Brazil. What happens when a person is exposed to SARS-CoV2 after getting these vaccines. Some previous SARS candidate vaccines ended up causing more severe illnesses. It seems, at least possibly, Moderna used their strategy to avoid some T-cell responses to avoid such a scenario.
We need to see what happens in exposed individuals.
Quote from: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
I still have concerns on what we will see in the phase 3 trials in Brazil. What happens when a person is exposed to SARS-CoV2 after getting these vaccines. Some previous SARS candidate vaccines ended up causing more severe illnesses. It seems, at least possibly, Moderna used their strategy to avoid some T-cell responses to avoid such a scenario.
We need to see what happens in exposed individuals.
Might we see a world where we take the first available vaccine to slow this down significantly, while waiting for a better vaccine to confer better immunity in the long term?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 11:01:54 AM
Step 2 is scale up
Step 3 is getting people injected (good luck with some folks)
I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means. But if I think they've rushed something out, I'll wait 6 months before getting an injection. I'll still be cautious about interactions with people in the meantime. I'm not judging anybody that chooses to wait a bit if a vaccine is out late this year/early next. That's a ridiculously fast timeline to be "fully vetted"
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 11:50:41 AM
I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means. But if I think they've rushed something out, I'll wait 6 months before getting an injection. I'll still be cautious about interactions with people in the meantime. I'm not judging anybody that chooses to wait a bit if a vaccine is out late this year/early next. That's a ridiculously fast timeline to be "fully vetted"
Problem is if everyone makes the same decision we are screwed.
I'll go first. Someone has to.
Can I get all of them?
Honestly Rocky the same thought has crossed my mind, specifically with the political desire to announce something successful within a certain timeframe. I am watching the commentary from doctors after phase 3 trials, and if they seem convinced, I'm in.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 11:26:30 AM
Might we see a world where we take the first available vaccine to slow this down significantly, while waiting for a better vaccine to confer better immunity in the long term?
I think this is exactly what we will see. If we have something that is 40-50% effective, places like NY will then be already at "herd immunity".
If we can find something upwards of 70% effective, and proven safe for everyone under 65 (arbitrary cutoff). We are still good at achieving herd immunity, with largely no restrictions.
The threshold for herd-immunity for COVID should be roughly in the 50-70% range (based on 1 - 1/R0) and assuming an R0 of 2-3.
Even something that is introduced and induces 25% overall immunity (so not 100% effective, and not 100% buy-in), would likely get us to a point where the combined effects of masks, no bars/dine-in restaurants) could eradicate the virus.
We do not need 100% effectiveness. We do need it to be proven safe though.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 12:00:18 PM
Problem is if everyone makes the same decision we are screwed.
I'd argue, if everyone makes the exact same decisions as me - we're in great shape. Masks everywhere, social distancing, very little contact with others.
But I understand your sentiment.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 20, 2020, 12:13:04 PM
Honestly Rocky the same thought has crossed my mind, specifically with the political desire to announce something successful within a certain timeframe. I am watching the commentary from doctors after phase 3 trials, and if they seem convinced, I'm in.
I do agree with this - I did specifically say if *I* think it's been rushed out. It''ll be a personal judgement, and I don't fault anyone for making it (Though if they don't take it, I also hope they're very careful like me)
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 12:24:53 PM
I'd argue, if everyone makes the exact same decisions as me - we're in great shape. Masks everywhere, social distancing, very little contact with others.
But I understand your sentiment.
I respect our caution and your perspective, but let's say you have a vaccine by Christmas. You're talking mid 2021, aka another full year of expecting/asking people to mask up and socially distance. That's a pretty big ask/hope if that's how it's gonna be beaten. Unless I am misunderstanding
You've been reasonable even when we disagree, so I'm not coming at you, but I'm just very curious on peoples perceptions of what they'd be "ok" with indefinitely if that's the case.
Wags. No one is talking about this yet (public policy wise), but you can have a vaccine and still need some of the measures you referenced.
I don't know if I'm ok or not ok with it but if you have only a partially effective vaccine you can still have problematic levels of spread.
I think once we have a vaccine that works even as good as the flu vaccine, the whole masking and social distancing thing will go away pretty quickly. People will still get sick, but the numbers will fall off and serious spikes will be isolated and no longer all that newsworthy.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 20, 2020, 12:09:24 PM
I'll go first. Someone has to.
Likewise. I was considering participating in a phase three trial.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 20, 2020, 01:12:15 PM
I think once we have a vaccine that works even as good as the flu vaccine, the whole masking and social distancing thing will go away pretty quickly. People will still get sick, but the numbers will fall off and serious spikes will be isolated and no longer all that newsworthy.
Treatments are just as important. Treatments that decrease deaths and need for ventilators and need for hospitalization in combination with a vaccine will be the key. Lots of good info on treatments starting to come out.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 20, 2020, 12:58:56 PM
I respect our caution and your perspective, but let's say you have a vaccine by Christmas. You're talking mid 2021, aka another full year of expecting/asking people to mask up and socially distance. That's a pretty big ask/hope if that's how it's gonna be beaten. Unless I am misunderstanding
I'm not expert, but I believe you're overestimating how quickly vaccines can be produced at scale and rolled out. Another year of social distancing is inevitable. The fastest multi-country new vaccine rollout in history took 2.5 years, and that was the new polio vaccine (so a well-known disease with a new variation of an existing vaccine).
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 11:50:41 AM
I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means. But if I think they've rushed something out, I'll wait 6 months before getting an injection. I'll still be cautious about interactions with people in the meantime. I'm not judging anybody that chooses to wait a bit if a vaccine is out late this year/early next. That's a ridiculously fast timeline to be "fully vetted"
If I am recalling correctly, the Oxford vaccine had gone through trials previously and been deemed safe long-term, so sign me up for that one.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 20, 2020, 01:12:15 PM
I think once we have a vaccine that works even as good as the flu vaccine, the whole masking and social distancing thing will go away pretty quickly. People will still get sick, but the numbers will fall off and serious spikes will be isolated and no longer all that newsworthy.
Once we have one as effective and it's in enough arms...
That's more why I said what I said.
Yeah, going "first" is uncomfortable.
You know what I think I'll do? Ask my doctor. That guy knows medical stuff.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on July 20, 2020, 04:37:34 PM
Yeah, going "first" is uncomfortable.
You know what I think I'll do? Ask my doctor. That guy knows medical stuff.
Not as much as the guy from my high school class who got a "C" in science freshman year and didn't even take the upper level high school science classes.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 20, 2020, 12:09:24 PM
I'll go first. Someone has to.
I will be in line 6 feet behind you.
If/when a vaccine is available. I encourage anyone getting it to get it in the morning, after at least 1-week of regular sleep cycles.
Quote from: forgetful on July 20, 2020, 05:13:28 PM
If/when a vaccine is available. I encourage anyone getting it to get it in the morning, after at least 1-week of regular sleep cycles.
Why?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 20, 2020, 11:26:30 AM
Might we see a world where we take the first available vaccine to slow this down significantly, while waiting for a better vaccine to confer better immunity in the long term?
Definitely.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 20, 2020, 05:50:44 PM
Why?
Studies in recent years have shown that antibody response tends to be greater in the morning than later in the day, and that healthy sleep patterns increase the effectiveness of vaccines. A couple of examples:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874947/
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/08/12458/sleep-affects-potency-vaccines
I've been flexing since March keeping that one good vein popping.
Let's go science, save the world again.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 20, 2020, 12:58:56 PM
I respect our caution and your perspective, but let's say you have a vaccine by Christmas. You're talking mid 2021, aka another full year of expecting/asking people to mask up and socially distance. That's a pretty big ask/hope if that's how it's gonna be beaten. Unless I am misunderstanding
You've been reasonable even when we disagree, so I'm not coming at you, but I'm just very curious on peoples perceptions of what they'd be "ok" with indefinitely if that's the case.
Yeah, I guess I'm mostly expecting masking for another year regardless. Now that I've acquired enough masks that fit comfortably, and for enough situations (cloth/disposable for around town, N95 for planes and airports) they don't bother me much at all.
And I'm *very* cautious, but I think I've been a little more "risky" than some here. I've been on 6 planes since May 1, another two coming up in the next couple weeks. Even stayed in a hotel for a couple nights. Masked up with N95 for the entire plane ride - and it was fine.
But beside that, as Skat said - new vaccines don't happen quickly (and I realize, there is a renewed focus here), but large trials usually go for 18 months (unless they stop early due to bad side effects). But also, why I said leave it up to my own research. I'm not a doctor, but I have studied the FDA approval process for a few drugs (meetings where experts question the results of drug trials from the company that presented the results). I'd be looking into that for a vaccine that gets approved. If they skip the scrutiny - I'm waiting. If they have it, I'll try to follow along and make my decision.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 20, 2020, 02:56:48 PM
If I am recalling correctly, the Oxford vaccine had gone through trials previously and been deemed safe long-term, so sign me up for that one.
I've heard the Oxford mentioned a bunch, but haven't looked into it yet. Thanks. I'll do some due diligence. They UK has a different drug review process - and I'm not familiar with it.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on July 20, 2020, 07:05:32 PM
Studies in recent years have shown that antibody response tends to be greater in the morning than later in the day, and that healthy sleep patterns increase the effectiveness of vaccines. A couple of examples:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874947/
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/08/12458/sleep-affects-potency-vaccines
Thanks.
Rocky, where did you acquire the N95 masks? Online seems like a crap shoot.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 20, 2020, 02:56:48 PM
If I am recalling correctly, the Oxford vaccine had gone through trials previously and been deemed safe long-term, so sign me up for that one.
I think this is AZD1222 (Oxford-AstraZeneca colab). They've gone through a phase 2 trial (~1000 people) with good results. The phase 3 is usually ~10,000 but they've got a bunch more signed up. That's good. Still, probably not available until next year though.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/20/study-provides-first-glimpse-of-efficacy-of-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine/
QuoteAstraZeneca and Oxford announced their partnership on the vaccine on April 30. A 10,000-patient study testing the vaccine is being run in the United Kingdom, and a separate 5,000-patient test began in Brazil in June. Soriot, the AstraZeneca CEO, said that phase 3 results could become available in September, October, or November.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 20, 2020, 07:53:55 PM
Rocky, where did you acquire the N95 masks? Online seems like a crap shoot.
Hah, I bough a 3M ten pack years ago for home improvement (asthma/old houses/lead/asbestos concerns). So I was lucky to have legit ones on hand (but only 3 left, and given the age, probably not good enough for hospital use).
I've since picked up some of the KN95 labeled cone style (Ace usually has these). I doubt they're medically certified, but construction seems good enough to be effective.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on July 20, 2020, 07:05:32 PM
Studies in recent years have shown that antibody response tends to be greater in the morning than later in the day, and that healthy sleep patterns increase the effectiveness of vaccines. A couple of examples:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4874947/
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/08/12458/sleep-affects-potency-vaccines
Thanks for getting to this.
I'll note the reason I specifically recommend it for these vaccines is that they are unlikely to provide 100% protection, so anything one can do to boost effectiveness will be important.
The correlation between our daily rhythms and our immune response are strong, and there is ample evidence that this carries over into vaccine responses.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 07:57:03 PM
I think this is AZD1222 (Oxford-AstraZeneca colab). They've gone through a phase 2 trial (~1000 people) with good results. The phase 3 is usually ~10,000 but they've got a bunch more signed up. That's good. Still, probably not available until next year though.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/20/study-provides-first-glimpse-of-efficacy-of-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine/
Found the original story from the end of April, copied below. But maybe the one with AZ is different?
In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead
"Most other teams have had to start with small clinical trials of a few hundred participants to demonstrate safety. But scientists at the university's Jenner Institute had a head start on a vaccine, having proved in previous trials that similar inoculations — including one last year against an earlier coronavirus — were harmless to humans.
"That has enabled them to leap ahead and schedule tests of their new coronavirus vaccine involving more than 6,000 people by the end of next month, hoping to show not only that it is safe, but also that it works.
"Scientists at the National Institutes of Health's Rocky Mountain Laboratory in Montana last month inoculated six rhesus macaque monkeys with single doses of the Oxford vaccine. The animals were then exposed to heavy quantities of the virus that is causing the pandemic — exposure that had consistently sickened other monkeys in the lab. But more than 28 days later all six were healthy, said Vincent Munster, the researcher who conducted the test."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/world/europe/coronavirus-vaccine-update-oxford.html?campaign_id=168&emc=edit_NN_p_20200428&instance_id=17997&nl=morning-briefing®i_id=98421546§ion=topNews&segment_id=26118&te=1&user_id=65badcb7c07b4cd4815fe5e758510381
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 20, 2020, 02:19:26 PM
I'm not expert, but I believe you're overestimating how quickly vaccines can be produced at scale and rolled out. Another year of social distancing is inevitable. The fastest multi-country new vaccine rollout in history took 2.5 years, and that was the new polio vaccine (so a well-known disease with a new variation of an existing vaccine).
I'm not over estimating, much like Hards alluded to, I'm trying to figure out what a word with a vaccine, even early stages or initial roll outs would look like for people and their risk management.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 20, 2020, 07:45:16 PM
Yeah, I guess I'm mostly expecting masking for another year regardless. Now that I've acquired enough masks that fit comfortably, and for enough situations (cloth/disposable for around town, N95 for planes and airports) they don't bother me much at all.
And I'm *very* cautious, but I think I've been a little more "risky" than some here. I've been on 6 planes since May 1, another two coming up in the next couple weeks. Even stayed in a hotel for a couple nights. Masked up with N95 for the entire plane ride - and it was fine.
Appreciate it. I think the concerning thing here is the populous is sufficiently freaked out, right or wrong, that even with masking and social distancing, we have so much amended behavior and caution that economic ripples are still coming.
I'm not seeing discretionary spending returning for big ticket items any time soon. Coming to grips with my business likely being DOA and realizing that even if we had deaths flattening out to near nothing, until we get preventative options in place we're gonna have general economic malaise for anything non-essential retail.
Your point about flying is interesting, cause based on a flight I took in June and second hand accounts from other people, I think with proper precautions flying is pretty manageable safe. But the sentiment has gotten so pervasive whether it be empirical, on travel websites, etc... that flying is reckless and selfish and irresponsible till we have a vaccine. That's gonna have a trickle effect to perceptions of business travel, especially international even if American bans are lifted, and that's a whole nother set of concerns. The novelty of Zoom or BlueJeans has wore off. I'm seeing gaps in the communication flows in the absence of trips that aren't being picked in other "virtual" ways.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 20, 2020, 10:26:08 PM
I'm not over estimating, much like Hards alluded to, I'm trying to figure out what a word with a vaccine, even early stages or initial roll outs would look like for people and their risk management.
Any thoughts from you guys in the know how a vaccine developed in another country would affect us?
We are pretty much going it alone on a vaccine and I wonder where in the pecking order we would be if it is developed elsewhere. I'm guessing they would take care of themselves first, but would they share their findings with us? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know how this works with proprietary products.
Quote from: Jockey on July 20, 2020, 11:36:45 PM
Any thoughts from you guys in the know how a vaccine developed in another country would affect us?
We are pretty much going it alone on a vaccine and I wonder where in the pecking order we would be if it is developed elsewhere. I'm guessing they would take care of themselves first, but would they share their findings with us? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know how this works with proprietary products.
Depends which one we are talking about. The Oxford one, we invested $1.2B in its development and have 300 million doses on priority delivery.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-astrazeneca/us-secures-300-million-doses-of-potential-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-idUSKBN22X0J9
If we are talking about the China vaccine candidate, I think we are SOL, we burned that bridge.
The big wrinkle in all of this could be that the bulk of production is in India. And if come fall, things are really bad there, they could sequester all doses until their population is treated first. That could get interesting.
Quote from: Jockey on July 20, 2020, 11:36:45 PM
Any thoughts from you guys in the know how a vaccine developed in another country would affect us?
We are pretty much going it alone on a vaccine and I wonder where in the pecking order we would be if it is developed elsewhere. I'm guessing they would take care of themselves first, but would they share their findings with us? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know how this works with proprietary products.
From a strictly regulatory perspective...if there is a market for it (and there will be for this), they will apply for approval by the FDA. This happens quite regularly with drugs that are developed and first approved overseas. The FDA has its own independent approval process, but it would take seriously any prior approval by a reputable regulatory authority elsewhere. The would likely go through the EMA and the MRHA (the EU & UK counterparts of FDA).
For those concerned about the 'quick' approval, this might give an extra measure of confidence.
Gracias, Goo & Forgetful.
Covered it from two different angles. Lots of knowledgeable Scoopers on this board.
Interesting note re the CanSino vaccine candidate:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/20/study-provides-first-glimpse-of-efficacy-of-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine/
"The Lancet also published results of another vaccine, from the Chinese biotech CanSino, that had been previously released. The Phase 2 results showed that, as was seen in the Phase 1 data, the vaccine induced neutralizing antibody responses — which could be vital to preventing the disease's dangerous symptoms — in most subjects. But further study continues to show that this vaccine works better in some people than others. And among those it didn't work as well in were people aged 55 and older, a key target for Covid-19 vaccination."
Quote from: JWags85 on July 20, 2020, 10:26:08 PM
I'm not over estimating, much like Hards alluded to, I'm trying to figure out what a word with a vaccine, even early stages or initial roll outs would look like for people and their risk management.
Yep, that's what the "2.5 years to rollout a vaccine" was referring to. That's after the vaccine was created and in production.
Getting a vaccination machinations in place worldwide is quite the ordeal. The timeline to the vaccine is probably 6 months to a year, but we may have a long time to go with social distancing and mask wearing guidelines.
Another question.
How long will be necessary to determine both dosage amounts and whether a booster will be needed? I'm guessing that would be the next step after determining whether a vaccine is effective.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 21, 2020, 08:48:04 AM
Yep, that's what the "2.5 years to rollout a vaccine" was referring to. That's after the vaccine was created and in production.
Getting a vaccination machinations in place worldwide is quite the ordeal. The timeline to the vaccine is probably 6 months to a year, but we may have a long time to go with social distancing and mask wearing guidelines.
Understood. As I mention, if this is indeed the case, the economic disaster is only beginning.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 21, 2020, 08:48:04 AM
Yep, that's what the "2.5 years to rollout a vaccine" was referring to. That's after the vaccine was created and in production.
Getting a vaccination machinations in place worldwide is quite the ordeal. The timeline to the vaccine is probably 6 months to a year, but we may have a long time to go with social distancing and mask wearing guidelines.
The time to rollout a vaccine also depends on the platform it is based off of. I believe that the technology that the leading vaccine candidates are built on can scale faster and should lead to a shorter time period for rollout.
The limiting factor may actually end up being delivery devices, not the vaccine itself.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 21, 2020, 10:05:03 AM
Understood. As I mention, if this is indeed the case, the economic disaster is only beginning.
The economic disaster is going to get worse before it gets better. With the virus not being managed well, there will continue to be higher unemployment and lower levels of economic activity.
Furthermore, while K-12 and higher education institutions WANT to start in person, it is looking increasingly unlikely that many districts will last through the fall in person. I think the psychological impact of this will be huge. And will significantly impact the holiday season.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 21, 2020, 10:43:00 AM
The economic disaster is going to get worse before it gets better. With the virus not being managed well, there will continue to be higher unemployment and lower levels of economic activity.
Furthermore, while K-12 and higher education institutions WANT to start in person, it is looking increasingly unlikely that many districts will last through the fall in person. I think the psychological impact of this will be huge. And will significantly impact the holiday season.
Yep, that's my biggest concern. I think the psychology of everything is starting to take a life of its own, beyond treatment options or numbers specific to a persons geography. And that's very bad for things that rely on positive consumer sentiment
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 21, 2020, 10:43:00 AM
The economic disaster is going to get worse before it gets better. With the virus not being managed well, there will continue to be higher unemployment and lower levels of economic activity.
Furthermore, while K-12 and higher education institutions WANT to start in person, it is looking increasingly unlikely that many districts will last through the fall in person. I think the psychological impact of this will be huge. And will significantly impact the holiday season.
Agreed on all levels.
Regarding the psychological impact, I suspect the mental trauma of prolonged uncertainty and isolation will long outlive the pandemic. And the quandary about reopening schools with the very real possibility that they might need to be shut down again begs an interesting question: Which is worse for kids - the
isolation of being away from their friends and teachers for prolonged periods, or the
uncertainty of repeatedly switching back and forth between open and closed schools. I don't know the answer to this question, but hopefully school districts are getting the input of psychiatrists and psychologists to consider this factor.
Quote from: mufanatic on July 20, 2020, 01:54:59 PM
Treatments are just as important. Treatments that decrease deaths and need for ventilators and need for hospitalization in combination with a vaccine will be the key. Lots of good info on treatments starting to come out.
I totally agree that better immediate treatments upon diagnosis may turn out to be the faster and better way to deal with this. A combination of both better treatments plus vaccines would be ideal. Right now certain steroids and Remdesivir are the only semi-effective treatments, but they aren't great, and hopefully some of the other ones in testing right now will be significantly better.
I want to see this disease get managed to the point that the deaths, hospitalizations, and serious side effects are down to a bad flu level or something better. We never shut things down for the 2017-2018 flu and that's the benchmark I want to see before we can consider this thing "controlled". Right now, it's way worse than that 2017-18 flu, but if enough treatments and vaccines are created to get this down to that level or better, at that point we go back to "business as usual". Business as usual to me means nothing shutdown and large gatherings allowed without worry.
My optimistic hope is that we get there by March 2021. Maybe I'm crazy for being that optimistic, but I see enough promise in treatments being developed that maybe by then this thing is under control.
I think there will be a big effect on adults as well. And that certainly relates to the economy. Too many families were caught cash-short when the shutdown started. I think getting a nest egg will become priority for many families over short term spending.
I stand by my 2-3 year prediction for the economy to get back to some sort is pre-pandemic levels.
But a bad 2nd wave could increase the time. That is a very real possibility considering this is America. Even in states like California and Ohio that did a great job early, things are getting really bad.
The mitigating factor is a vaccine. It's effectiveness will determine whether we slowly start moving to normal or do a 180 toward a major depression.
Looks like the front-runner vaccines will include a few days of feeling pretty crappy. Not the worst trade-off, but might deter folks too (ignore the headline, it's a fairly balanced writeup):
https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-with-minor-side-effects-could-still-be-pretty-bad/
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 21, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
Looks like the front-runner vaccines will include a few days of feeling pretty crappy. Not the worst trade-off, but might deter folks too (ignore the headline, it's a fairly balanced writeup):
https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-with-minor-side-effects-could-still-be-pretty-bad/
Honesty.
It's what was lacking from our leaders. Let's hope the creators of the vaccines are more open. If they aren't and stories get out about side effects, we'd be lucky to get 50% participation.
Side effects + no long term testing could prolong the pandemic. More honesty = greater participation.
U.S. paying Pfizer $1.95 billion for 100 million doses of their vaccine. May buy up to 600 million doses.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-07-22/pfizer-in-pact-with-u-s-for-100-million-covid-19-vaccine-doses-kcx9x3ww?__twitter_impression=true
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-07-22/pfizer-in-pact-with-u-s-for-100-million-covid-19-vaccine-doses-kcx9x3ww?__twitter_impression=true
It's being manufactured at the Pfizer St. Louis facility. SLU appears to be testing Moderna's vaccine. Not sure about Wash U. You can go to clinicaltrials.gov
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/washu-and-slu-announce-covid-19-vaccine-trials-in-st-louis/article_86b4031d-274a-53e3-8995-146bc3bc8418.html
Not a good sign for herd immunity
Rapid Decay of Anti–SARS-CoV-2 Antibodies in Persons with Mild Covid-1
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2025179
Our findings raise concern that humoral immunity against SARS-CoV-2 may not be long lasting in persons with mild illness, who compose the majority of persons with Covid-19. It is difficult to extrapolate beyond our observation period of approximately 90 days because it is likely that the decay will decelerate.3 Still, the results call for caution regarding antibody-based "immunity passports," herd immunity, and perhaps vaccine durability, especially in light of short-lived immunity against common human coronaviruses. Further studies will be needed to define a quantitative protection threshold and rate of decline of antiviral antibodies beyond 90 days.
I would be cautious with running with these anti-body studies from what I have read - at least extrapolate it to 'how long immunity lasts'.
The answer from what I gather is that no one knows yet and the fact that anti-bodies decay does not answer that question yet...despite many headlines trying to take it there.
By the way if anyone wants to claim they stayed in a holiday Inn last night re: immunology. Here is a great thread and short video.
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1285944893085491204?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1285944893085491204?s=21)
For those possibly interested in getting in on a trial.
https://www.niaid.nih.gov/clinical-trials/vaccine-research-center-clinical-studies
Sign up.
I would possibly consider it, if I knew I would get the vaccine and not a placebo.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 22, 2020, 09:44:42 AM
I would be cautious with running with these anti-body studies from what I have read - at least extrapolate it to 'how long immunity lasts'.
The answer from what I gather is that no one knows yet and the fact that anti-bodies decay does not answer that question yet...despite many headlines trying to take it there.
Exactly. This is one more reason that vaccines take so long to develop and test in normal circumstances.
Quote from: forgetful on July 22, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
For those possibly interested in getting in on a trial.
https://www.niaid.nih.gov/clinical-trials/vaccine-research-center-clinical-studies
Sign up.
I would possibly consider it, if I knew I would get the vaccine and not a placebo.
Hey fortgetful, what is the status of your friend who was working on creating antibodies in volume?
Pfizer hopes to get emergency approval by October
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/07/22/coronavirus-covid-19-and-vaccines-trump-masks-and-ex-cdc-director/5484636002/
"Pfizer and BioNTech announced a deal with the federal government for 100 million doses of their vaccine candidate once the companies obtain approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Americans will receive the vaccine for free, the firms said. If the ongoing studies are successful, Pfizer and BioNTech expect to be ready to seek Emergency Use Authorization or some form of regulatory approval as early as October."
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 22, 2020, 12:49:03 PM
Pfizer hopes to get emergency approval by October
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/07/22/coronavirus-covid-19-and-vaccines-trump-masks-and-ex-cdc-director/5484636002/
"Pfizer and BioNTech announced a deal with the federal government for 100 million doses of their vaccine candidate once the companies obtain approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Americans will receive the vaccine for free, the firms said. If the ongoing studies are successful, Pfizer and BioNTech expect to be ready to seek Emergency Use Authorization or some form of regulatory approval as early as October."
For what it's worth, I would not be confident getting a vaccine that has been approved through the EUA process. It was created by FDA to grant expedited 'approval' for products that might save the lives of people who are critically ill. As such, the approval criteria are more vague and lax than the 'safe and effective' standard required for standard approval.
I think EUA was totally appropriate for Remdesovir, because that is now used in patients who are already critically ill with COVID, and as such are willing to face some additional risk.
I don't think the same can be said for a vaccine, which by definition is given to healthy individuals.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 22, 2020, 12:49:03 PM
Pfizer hopes to get emergency approval by October
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/07/22/coronavirus-covid-19-and-vaccines-trump-masks-and-ex-cdc-director/5484636002/
"Pfizer and BioNTech announced a deal with the federal government for 100 million doses of their vaccine candidate once the companies obtain approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Americans will receive the vaccine for free, the firms said. If the ongoing studies are successful, Pfizer and BioNTech expect to be ready to seek Emergency Use Authorization or some form of regulatory approval as early as October."
This seems to fall clearly into what Rocky was calling out earlier. It would be interesting analysis to find out if rushed approval results in more immunizations over a 6-9 month period vs. getting the 30K plus through a phase 3 trial and then starting.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 22, 2020, 01:49:21 PM
This seems to fall clearly into what Rocky was calling out earlier. It would be interesting analysis to find out if rushed approval results in more immunizations over a 6-9 month period vs. getting the 30K plus through a phase 3 trial and then starting.
Yeah, I personally am going to be pretty cautious with a vaccine that was rushed, unless like the Oxford one it had preciously been deemed safe long term.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 22, 2020, 12:44:53 PM
Hey fortgetful, what is the status of your friend who was working on creating antibodies in volume?
It'll come down to two things.
1. Are these antibodies being used as treatments (less needed) or prophylactic. If we are using these in lieu of a vaccine as a protection before being infected, they probably can't handle the scale. The vaccines, depending on which is the winner, are going to be much easier to produce on scale. If we are only using them as treatments, they should be able to handle the scales needed.
2. Results from the antibody trials. We have to hope that the antibodies that have been selected as either monoclonals, or cocktails, are the best/right antibodies. There are reasonable ways to produce the antibodies on scale now, but the problem is there is a bit of a lead time to get to industrial scale. Those "lead times" phases are in progress, so if they are right on the antibody treatments, we should be good to go on scale. My personal preference for methods are using tobacco to produce antibodies on scale. Much cheaper than alternative methods.
There are potential efficacy problems with using plant derived antibodies though. So again, needs to be resolved in testing first. Good news is there are several different platforms in testing around the world, so let's just hope that whichever is most effective is also ready to go in terms of scaling.
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 22, 2020, 12:44:53 PM
Hey fortgetful, what is the status of your friend who was working on creating antibodies in volume?
An additional aspect of this. He was pretty certain that China would be ahead of the game here, for various reasons. That may not necessarily be the case, as China seems to be pivoting to a vaccine emphasis. They are already inoculating their military with their top vaccine candidate.
That may slow their development/emphasis in the antibody market.
Next phase of Moderna study begins today, 30,000 patients for the next several months...followed by Oxford's study in August, then J&J and Pfizer by Sept and Oct.
https://apnews.com/d9150647d677cd036c03b8d0ab52358b?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP
Russia set to approve Covid vaccine, even though the study is still in the midst of phase 2 studies. Frightening...
https://thehill.com/policy/international/509496-russia-aiming-to-approve-covid-19-vaccine-within-weeks-report
Russia's vaccine still needs to finish its second phase of testing, which officials say they expect to complete by Aug. 3. Then, the third phase of testing will be conducted at the same time that front-line health care workers are vaccinated, according to the network.
——————-
The Russians are calling this a "Sputnik moment," but it also has the very real potential to be more like Chernobyl.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on July 30, 2020, 07:23:21 PM
Russia set to approve Covid vaccine, even though the study is still in the midst of phase 2 studies. Frightening...
https://thehill.com/policy/international/509496-russia-aiming-to-approve-covid-19-vaccine-within-weeks-report
Russia's vaccine still needs to finish its second phase of testing, which officials say they expect to complete by Aug. 3. Then, the third phase of testing will be conducted at the same time that front-line health care workers are vaccinated, according to the network.
——————-
The Russians are calling this a "Sputnik moment," but it also has the very real potential to be more like Chernobyl.
China has already been vaccinating their military too.
Too bad we can't see transparent results on what happen in each of these experiments.
Quote from: forgetful on July 30, 2020, 07:42:27 PM
China has already been vaccinating their military too.
Too bad we can't see transparent results on what happen in each of these experiments.
Yep. Whatever information they do release will almost certainly be sanitized...especially since they're going to be vaccinating their general public soon.
Here is a follow up to my post about med profs saying that we should not necessarily be concerned about falling antibody counts. This is written by a virologist at Yale who has been putting out a lot of very interesting studies on covid.
It's an opinion piece but I found also very informative to a layperson like me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 31, 2020, 05:34:18 PM
Here is a follow up to my post about med profs saying that we should not necessarily be concerned about falling antibody counts. This is written by a virologist at Yale who has been putting out a lot of very interesting studies on covid.
It's an opinion piece but I found also very informative to a layperson like me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html)
Estimates of only 43% to 66%, not 90%, needed to be vaccinated to protect the unvaccinated.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on August 01, 2020, 07:03:04 AM
Estimates of only 43% to 66%, not 90%, needed to be vaccinated to protect the unvaccinated.
That has generally been the benchmark numbers. It is a very simple calculation for the approximation. You take the R0 value and plug it into 1- 1/R0 to get the fraction of the population needed to reach "herd immunity".
Estimates of the R0 without any quarantine measures, or any other restrictions range from 1.8-3. That gives you a range of 44-66%. That value can be achieved by a combination of immunity from both actual infections and vaccines.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 31, 2020, 05:34:18 PM
Here is a follow up to my post about med profs saying that we should not necessarily be concerned about falling antibody counts. This is written by a virologist at Yale who has been putting out a lot of very interesting studies on covid.
It's an opinion piece but I found also very informative to a layperson like me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/opinion/coronavirus-antibodies-immunity.html)
https://www.yahoo.com/news/dont-panic-waning-coronavirus-immunity-124700728.html
https://keyt.com/health/2020/08/02/do-some-people-have-protection-against-the-coronavirus/
AP poll shows that only 42% will get vaccine when made available.
If the vaccines is (optimistically) 60-70% effective, that is nowhere near enough for herd immunity.
Vaccines do not cure viruses. Vaccinations do
Quote from: Jockey on August 06, 2020, 02:15:20 PM
AP poll shows that only 42% will get vaccine when made available.
If the vaccines is (optimistically) 60-70% effective, that is nowhere near enough for herd immunity.
Vaccines do not cure viruses. Vaccinations do
IMHO, the low rate is a direct result of POTUS' history of forcing Executive Branch agencies to do exactly what he wants...regardless of their oath to the Constitution, and regardless of their professional expertise and ethics. For Exhibit A, I give you the CDC school reopening plan - released, then withdrawn and watered down.
I would not put it past him to exert the same kind of influence over FDA's vaccine review process. The poll seems to indicate that many others feel the same way.
Personally, I will only take a vaccine that has been approved by FDA
plus either the EU or UK regulatory agency.
One thing I will look for is whether or not Fauci endorses it. If we get word salad from him I would wait
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 06, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
One thing I will look for is whether or not Fauci endorses it. If we get word salad from him I would wait
Exactly my feelings. And if Biden is elected, my decision will STILL be based on the recommendations of experts.
New pre-print study showing 70% keep antibodies 6 months after infection. Good news potentially on the durability of immunity question.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.21.20159178v1 (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.21.20159178v1)
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1293903501765074944?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1293903501765074944?s=21)
NPR: Operation Warp Speed Top Adviser On The Status Of A Coronavirus Vaccine
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/03/909312697/operation-warp-speed-top-adviser-on-the-status-of-a-coronavirus-vaccine
It's a recorded interview with transcript, but here are the key points:
* It is "possible but very unlikely" that a vaccine will be ready by October or November
* If the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine is approved, we may have limited supply of approved vaccine for 70+ and first responders "by the end of the year."
* If the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine is approved, we may have enough for general population by "the middle of 2021."
Bottom line: For the vast majority of us, the social distancing, mask-wearing, risk balancing life of COVID will likely be with us for about another year...and that's if we are fortunate enough to have one of the vaccines bankrolled by the US pan out.
WEAR A MASK IN PUBLIC, AND STAY AWAY FROM CROWDED, HIGH-RISK SITUATIONS WHENEVER POSSIBLE
Getting charged $10,984 for an $8 antibody test...
https://twitter.com/propublica/status/1302185399121588224?s=19
Quote from: shoothoops on September 06, 2020, 08:57:32 PM
Getting charged $10,984 for an $8 antibody test...
https://twitter.com/propublica/status/1302185399121588224?s=19
Best healthcare system in the world!
I see there is a story that Aztra Zeneca is putting their Phase 3 vaccine trial on hold to study a patient who had adverse reaction.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on September 08, 2020, 08:30:01 PM
I see there is a story that Aztra Zeneca is putting their Phase 3 vaccine trial on hold to study a patient who had adverse reaction.
1 person in the UK had an adverse reaction, so AZ is stopping their trial.
UW@Madison was involved in the study.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on September 08, 2020, 08:30:01 PM
I see there is a story that Aztra Zeneca is putting their Phase 3 vaccine trial on hold to study a patient who had adverse reaction.
Yep, and this is of the most promising vaccines. No detail so far on what the reaction was, but it sounds like the participant will survive. Hopefully they quickly determine that it was unrelated to the vaccine, so they can resume without too much delay.
This is why they need to fully complete and analyze the phase 3 trials before the FDA approves anything. They did not see this type of reaction in the phase 1 or phase 2 trials, and a phase 3 trial is often the first time officials learn of a significant reaction to an investigational drug.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/09/08/report-covid-vaccine-candidate-created-oxford-university-and-astrazeneca-put-hold/5752569002/
Quote from: GooooMarquette on September 08, 2020, 08:53:46 PM
Yep, and this is of the most promising vaccines. No detail so far on what the reaction was, but it sounds like the participant will survive. Hopefully they quickly determine that it was unrelated to the vaccine, so they can resume without too much delay.
This is why they need to fully complete and analyze the phase 3 trials before the FDA approves anything. They did not see this type of reaction in the phase 1 or phase 2 trials, and a phase 3 trial is often the first time officials learn of a significant reaction to an investigational drug.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/09/08/report-covid-vaccine-candidate-created-oxford-university-and-astrazeneca-put-hold/5752569002/
Also a good example of why the phase 3 trials can take a long time. An adverse reaction, a death, and everything gets shut down until they can be 100% certain it was not related to the drug/vaccine.
Quote from: forgetful on September 08, 2020, 10:10:36 PM
Also a good example of why the phase 3 trials can take a long time. An adverse reaction, a death, and everything gets shut down until they can be 100% certain it was not related to the drug/vaccine.
Hey forgetful...maybe you missed it in the Covid thread, was wondering what your thoughts were on the Sturgis study? Whether we should take it seriously or not?
A little insight to the COVID-19 vaccine development at Pfizer.
Pfizer's CT site helped develop a COVID-19 vaccine. But will it work?
By Ana Radelat, CTMirror.org Updated 9:48 am EDT, Wednesday, September 9, 2020
https://www.nhregister.com/news/coronavirus/article/Pfizer-s-CT-site-helped-develop-a-COVID-19-15553337.php
https://www.pittwire.pitt.edu/news/pitt-scientists-discover-tiny-antibody-component-highly-effective-preventing-and-treating-sars
Pitt has been sciencing their asses off since the beginning of this. It sure would be helpful if this is shown to be effective in humans.
Quote from: tower912 on September 15, 2020, 07:38:33 AM
https://www.pittwire.pitt.edu/news/pitt-scientists-discover-tiny-antibody-component-highly-effective-preventing-and-treating-sars
Pitt has been sciencing their asses off since the beginning of this. It sure would be helpful if this is shown to be effective in humans.
The science makes sense - really hope it works out in clinical trials. Pitt has some top-notch researchers.
NIH closely evaluating the adverse event in the Astra Zeneca trial...but A-Z is not being very forthcoming. Glad to see NIH is pressing them on this serious event, and disappointed that A-Z is being so evasive. I hope NIH keeps the pressure on, and only gives the green light if and when satisfactory answers are provided.
NIH is 'very concerned' about serious side effect in coronavirus vaccine trial
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-09-15/nih-concerned-side-effect-in-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-trial
"The highest levels of NIH are very concerned," said Dr. Avindra Nath, intramural clinical director and a leader of viral research at the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke, a division of the NIH. "Everyone's hopes are on a vaccine, and if you have a major complication the whole thing could get derailed."
A great deal of uncertainty remains about what happened to the unnamed patient. AstraZeneca said the trial volunteer recovered from a severe inflammation of the spinal cord and is no longer hospitalized.
Nath and another neurologist said they understood that the patient was afflicted with transverse myelitis, though the company has not confirmed this. Transverse myelitis produces symptoms involving inflammation along the spinal cord that can cause pain, muscle weakness and paralysis.
AstraZeneca "need to be more forthcoming with a potential complication of a vaccine which will eventually be given to millions of people," Nath said. "We would like to see how we can help, but the lack of information makes it difficult to do so."
Quote from: GooooMarquette on September 15, 2020, 03:06:14 PM
NIH closely evaluating the adverse event in the Astra Zeneca trial...but A-Z is not being very forthcoming. Glad to see NIH is pressing them on this serious event, and disappointed that A-Z is being so evasive. I hope NIH keeps the pressure on, and only gives the green light if and when satisfactory answers are provided.
NIH is 'very concerned' about serious side effect in coronavirus vaccine trial
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-09-15/nih-concerned-side-effect-in-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine-trial
"The highest levels of NIH are very concerned," said Dr. Avindra Nath, intramural clinical director and a leader of viral research at the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke, a division of the NIH. "Everyone's hopes are on a vaccine, and if you have a major complication the whole thing could get derailed."
A great deal of uncertainty remains about what happened to the unnamed patient. AstraZeneca said the trial volunteer recovered from a severe inflammation of the spinal cord and is no longer hospitalized.
Nath and another neurologist said they understood that the patient was afflicted with transverse myelitis, though the company has not confirmed this. Transverse myelitis produces symptoms involving inflammation along the spinal cord that can cause pain, muscle weakness and paralysis.
AstraZeneca "need to be more forthcoming with a potential complication of a vaccine which will eventually be given to millions of people," Nath said. "We would like to see how we can help, but the lack of information makes it difficult to do so."
Just release it and then run 60 second ads with all of the side effects. They'll be fine, as they have people looking at the sky, running fingers through flowers, roller skating or drinking ice tea. Muzak is also necessary.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 15, 2020, 03:41:40 PM
Just release it and then run 60 second ads with all of the side effects. They'll be fine, as they have people looking at the sky, running fingers through flowers, roller skating or drinking ice tea. Muzak is also necessary.
Post of the day.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 15, 2020, 03:41:40 PM
Just release it and then run 60 second ads with all of the side effects. They'll be fine, as they have people looking at the sky, running fingers through flowers, roller skating or drinking ice tea. Muzak is also necessary.
Perfect!
I just love those drug ads. "So it'll clear up my skin, but might make my testicles fall off? Sign me up!"
When I see those ads I am like, I am never putting this in my body!
Crap, forgot to add that Big Pharma might be able to help if you can't afford your medication.... lmao.
FYI - If you donate blood through the Red Cross, they will test for antibodies and give you the results.
I am donating this afternoon.
Quote from: warriorchick on September 16, 2020, 07:59:22 AM
FYI - If you donate blood through the Red Cross, they will test for antibodies and give you the results.
I am donating this afternoon.
Shocked you found a time. My mother had to drive up to Fox lake to get a time that wasn't months out.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 16, 2020, 08:00:33 AM
Shocked you found a time. My mother had to drive up to Fox lake to get a time that wasn't months out.
It was a drive thru testing site in Madison. I waited less than 15 minutes in line.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 16, 2020, 08:00:33 AM
Shocked you found a time. My mother had to drive up to Fox lake to get a time that wasn't months out.
It seems to be totally regional. I couldnt find time for months in SE WI. Meanwhile, I have 2 friends in Columbus and 1 in LA who got donated blood within days and got their antibody results.
Monoclonal antibodies
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lilly-announces-proof-of-concept-data-for-neutralizing-antibody-ly-cov555-in-the-covid-19-outpatient-setting-301131785.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lilly-announces-proof-of-concept-data-for-neutralizing-antibody-ly-cov555-in-the-covid-19-outpatient-setting-301131785.html)
Quote from: JWags85 on September 16, 2020, 12:47:37 PM
It seems to be totally regional. I couldnt find time for months in SE WI. Meanwhile, I have 2 friends in Columbus and 1 in LA who got donated blood within days and got their antibody results.
Only an hour or two to Madison. Worth the drive!
I do not feel safe with the vaccine being rushed out. I'm not going to take it. I'd rather continue to wear a mask and social distance until there is more evidence of no awful side effects.
Quote from: shoothoops on September 06, 2020, 08:57:32 PM
Getting charged $10,984 for an $8 antibody test...
https://twitter.com/propublica/status/1302185399121588224?s=19
Yah capitalism!
I really wouldn't call the health insurance industry a shining example of capitalism.
Iodine. Who knew?
I have never seen anything like this in terms of drug/vaccine approval...but then again I have never seen anything like the disconnect between the scientists and the decisionmakers.
Cuomo is forming a panel to review federally authorized vaccines, citing concerns the process has become politicized.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/covid-19-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage#link-62bcea85
-----------
I have previously said I won't get a vaccine unless it has been approved by both FDA and the EU's drug regulatory agency, so I get where he is coming from...but it seems like Cuomo is trying to build a pretty complex review process on the fly....
I'm not taking anything approved right before the election. When Dr. Murphy from Northwestern announces on WGN-TV that it's good to go, I will be there.
Vaccine education for those that have interest.
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 27, 2020, 10:43:38 PM
Vaccine education for those that have interest.
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250?s=21)
If ever there was a time for ThreadReader, this is it.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310372301314101250.html
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on September 28, 2020, 08:14:00 AM
If ever there was a time for ThreadReader, this is it.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310372301314101250.html
138 tweets, jeeeeeesus.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on September 28, 2020, 08:26:23 AM
138 tweets, jeeeeeesus.
Here is the polished version.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2798-3 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2798-3)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on September 28, 2020, 08:26:23 AM
138 tweets, jeeeeeesus.
MFer coulda found the vaccine in the time it took to type all that out.
I thought this was an interesting view into Operation Warp Speed. I'm not disappointed that the military is involved, especially when it comes to logistics.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/)
Various news articles out there on the side effects of two of the vaccines in trials. I just had a flu vaccine 3 weeks ago with zero side effects. In terms of the COVID ones, high fevers, headaches, nausea. Typically after the second shot.
Good news is most people feel better 24-36 hours later.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on October 01, 2020, 11:45:08 AM
Various news articles out there on the side effects of two of the vaccines in trials. I just had a flu vaccine 3 weeks ago with zero side effects. In terms of the COVID ones, high fevers, headaches, nausea. Typically after the second shot.
Good news is most people feel better 24-36 hours later.
To be fair if that's the worst that happens and could get things relatively back to the way they should be I'd do it. Could be much worse in terms of side effects.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 28, 2020, 03:16:15 PM
I thought this was an interesting view into Operation Warp Speed. I'm not disappointed that the military is involved, especially when it comes to logistics.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/28/operation-warp-speed-vast-military-involvement/)
Military should be involved. They are very good at this.
They also
should have been put in charge of PPE, ventilators, and other needed equipment. Lots of lives could have been saved.
Moderna Therapeutics said Wednesday that the drug-making company's coronavirus vaccine won't be available for widespread distribution until at least next spring
CEO Stéphane Bancel told the Financial Times that Moderna would not apply for emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration until at least Nov. 25. An emergency use authorization lets frontline medical workers and at-risk individuals use the vaccine during the pandemic.
Bancel also told the publication that his company will not seek FDA approval for vaccine use in the general population until late January, adding that such an approval will more likely come closer to late March or early April.
The president said in the next couple weeks.
Who are you gonna believe?
Quote from: Jockey on October 01, 2020, 02:26:16 PM
Moderna Therapeutics said Wednesday that the drug-making company's coronavirus vaccine won't be available for widespread distribution until at least next spring
CEO Stéphane Bancel told the Financial Times that Moderna would not apply for emergency use authorization from the Food and Drug Administration until at least Nov. 25. An emergency use authorization lets frontline medical workers and at-risk individuals use the vaccine during the pandemic.
Bancel also told the publication that his company will not seek FDA approval for vaccine use in the general population until late January, adding that such an approval will more likely come closer to late March or early April.
And when the company says not until at least 'next spring,' they are giving you their educated guess on the
best-case scenario. Typical CEO trying to encourage shareholders without violating SEC rules. And it isn't surprising, or necessarily the company's fault - you can only speed things along so much in vaccine development, no matter how many resources you plough into it. Ethical review boards, data safety monitoring boards, unpredictable side effects - they all add time to a necessarily time-intensive process.
I will be pleasantly surprised if we have a vaccine in widespread distribution by mid-2021. Earlier might have been great, but it's a pipe dream IMO.
https://twitter.com/markmobility/status/1313263900062777344?s=19
"White House blocks new FDA COVID-19 Vaccine guidelines"
The F.D.A. releases advice for vaccine developers, including recommendations the White House had blocked.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/06/world/covid-coronavirus?name=styln-coronavirus-markets®ion=TOP_BANNER&block=storyline_menu_recirc&action=click&pgtype=Article&impression_id=cb63f870-0804-11eb-8e53-77965d24cd50&variant=1_Show#the-fda-releases-advice-for-vaccine-developers-including-recommendations-the-white-house-had-blocked
The Food and Drug Administration on Tuesday released a summary of the advice it has given to developers of vaccines for Covid-19. The advice contained key parts of new F.D.A. vaccine guidelines that the White House had blocked.
The advice was nestled at the end of a document the F.D.A. prepared for the meeting on Oct. 22 of the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee. The committee will be discussing the development, authorization and licensing of Covid vaccines.
-----------
Ballsy move by the FDA, and the right move if they want the public to have any confidence in the safety of any Covid vaccine that gets approved.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on October 06, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
Ballsy move by the FDA, and the right move if they want the public to have any confidence in the safety of any Covid vaccine that gets approved.
We need this. Interestingly Pfizer CEO also tweeted on this topic today as well as Scott Gottlieb on interviews (BOD member for Pfizer but former Head of FDA) try to support the integrity and independence of the FDA.
It seems like the CDC is also waking up that they need to do their jobs with yesterdays reinstitution of the aerosol guidance.
There seems to be something that emboldened the scientists recently. Not sure if its the Atlas dynamic or the admin just cutting the agencies out, but something happened to get them to speak up.
57-41
Quote from: tower912 on October 06, 2020, 02:07:55 PM
57-41
=16
The google search box will do math for you if you type in the equation 8-)
Random numbers
Perhaps.
Yeah, I knew. But it's only the swing states that matter.
Great news from Eli Lilly this morning. A reduction in ER/hospital visits from almost 6% in placebo to under 1% with this antibody cocktail.
Ready to roll out millions of doses, let's get it done!!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/eli-lilly-asks-fda-to-authorize-covid-19-antibody-drug-11602074998
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 07, 2020, 09:51:59 AM
Great news from Eli Lilly this morning. A reduction in ER/hospital visits from almost 6% in placebo to under 1% with this antibody cocktail.
Ready to roll out millions of doses, let's get it done!!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/eli-lilly-asks-fda-to-authorize-covid-19-antibody-drug-11602074998
Again, from very early on I've been a proponent of these monoclonal antibodies being the most likely to have an impact on COVID in a rapid manner.
It was a major strategic error by the administration not to include these in project Warp speed. There should have been billions of dollars guaranteed to these companies to backstop the cost in production (in case trials failed), and they should have been being pushed hard in accelerated trials. And financial support to ensure that every American could have access and afford these expensive drugs.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2020, 10:06:39 AM
Again, from very early on I've been a proponent of these monoclonal antibodies being the most likely to have an impact on COVID in a rapid manner.
It was a major strategic error by the administration not to include these in project Warp speed. There should have been billions of dollars guaranteed to these companies to backstop the cost in production (in case trials failed), and they should have been being pushed hard in accelerated trials. And financial support to ensure that every American could have access and afford these expensive drugs.
I would use negligence or denial rather than "strategic error", but you are 100% correct.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2020, 10:06:39 AM
Again, from very early on I've been a proponent of these monoclonal antibodies being the most likely to have an impact on COVID in a rapid manner.
It was a major strategic error by the administration not to include these in project Warp speed. There should have been billions of dollars guaranteed to these companies to backstop the cost in production (in case trials failed), and they should have been being pushed hard in accelerated trials. And financial support to ensure that every American could have access and afford these expensive drugs.
Have they ever been asked why these monoclonal antibodies weren't included? Would be interesting to see if the medical folks consulting Operation Warp Speed fought for the inclusion and told no for some reason or if it was really never discussed by Fauci, Birx, etc.. as an option.
It would be interesting to hear why it wasn't included.
I dont know why the conjecture about doctors opposing, you could as easily make a case that the head of the pandemic response was against them because they use stem cells in their development. But instead of unhelpful conjecture maybe there is a source that is out there.
Here are some:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/02/warp-speed-covid-antibody-treatments-425649 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/02/warp-speed-covid-antibody-treatments-425649)
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/08/operation-warp-speed-promised-to-do-the-impossible-how-far-has-it-come/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/08/operation-warp-speed-promised-to-do-the-impossible-how-far-has-it-come/)
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08/designer-antibodies-could-battle-covid-19-vaccines-arrive (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08/designer-antibodies-could-battle-covid-19-vaccines-arrive)
Conclusion: It's been long ID'd that we are not ramping up capacity here as part of Warp speed, just trial support. No discussion I could find about why or who.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 07, 2020, 10:47:46 AM
Have they ever been asked why these monoclonal antibodies weren't included? Would be interesting to see if the medical folks consulting Operation Warp Speed fought for the inclusion and told no for some reason or if it was really never discussed by Fauci, Birx, etc.. as an option.
The Whitehouse has been notified, the group of scientists in the COVID-19 advisory group (partnering with manufacturers and billionaires), clearly indicated the importance of monoclonal antibodies as the most likely bridge to a vaccine.
That groups insistence on its importance is what let the administration to work with Regeneron (possibly saving the president's life). It was highly prioritized.
Now, for the mea culpa. I know people on that advisory group. My criticism is in part unwarranted and incomplete. Operation Warp Speed did fund Regeneron's production, I had missed this. But only enough funding to backstop 70k-300k doses, far too low to be widely available to the public this calendar year. That is still a major strategic error.
Other promising candidates either did not obtain any funding, or simply received funding to help support trials (not production), with the priorities going to vaccines instead. The big cost and risks are in production, which is why in most drug developments, planning and scaling up production waits to after phase 3, when you have a good baseline for whether it will be approved or not.
The WH decided to prioritize vaccines and try to rush them out by Election Day. That was their strategic decision.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2020, 11:06:09 AM
The Whitehouse has been notified, the group of scientists in the COVID-19 advisory group (partnering with manufacturers and billionaires), clearly indicated the importance of monoclonal antibodies as the most likely bridge to a vaccine.
That groups insistence on its importance is what let the administration to work with Regeneron (possibly saving the president's life). It was highly prioritized.
Now, for the mea culpa. I know people on that advisory group. My criticism is in part unwarranted and incomplete. Operation Warp Speed did fund Regeneron's production, I had missed this. But only enough funding to backstop 70k-300k doses, far too low to be widely available to the public this calendar year. That is still a major strategic error.
Other promising candidates either did not obtain any funding, or simply received funding to help support trials (not production), with the priorities going to vaccines instead. The big cost and risks are in production, which is why in most drug developments, planning and scaling up production waits to after phase 3, when you have a good baseline for whether it will be approved or not.
The WH decided to prioritize vaccines and try to rush them out by Election Day. That was their strategic decision.
Interesting, thanks for detailed update. In hind sight you're saying those priorities should have been flipped with the antibody development taking precedent over the vaccine or both routes treated more equally in importance?
Glad to hear the task force helped with some of the support for trails/production in what appears to be a pretty promising treatment cocktail and it wasn't negligence/denial that jockey throws around with no evidence.
Your criticism is that they're should have been more support/funding if I'm reading you correctly? With more support these treatments you think might have been readily available by now?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 07, 2020, 11:32:13 AM
Interesting, thanks for detailed update. In hind sight you're saying those priorities should have been flipped with the antibody development taking precedent over the vaccine or both routes treated more equally in importance?
Glad to hear the task force helped with some of the support for trails/production in what appears to be a pretty promising treatment cocktail and it wasn't negligence/denial that jockey throws around with no evidence.
Your criticism is that they're should have been more support/funding if I'm reading you correctly? With more support these treatments you think might have been readily available by now?
I won't speak for forgetful, but my sense is that monoclonal antibody therapy should have been better funded generally - both at Regeneron and other companies.
The emphasis (overemphasis?) on getting a vaccine out before the election arguably took funds away from these monoclonal antibody studies, and the resources to produce and distribute them.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on October 07, 2020, 01:59:38 PM
I won't speak for forgetful, but my sense is that monoclonal antibody therapy should have been better funded generally - both at Regeneron and other companies.
The emphasis (overemphasis?) on getting a vaccine out before the election arguably took funds away from these monoclonal antibody studies, and the resources to produce and distribute them.
Eh, hindsight is 20/20. No win situation. If these therapies were unsuccessful, then the government would have caught criticism for wasting money, or a corporate giveaway. I'm fine with funding all of these therapies, but it's easy to say which one we should have thrown more money at after the fact.
Both/and, not either/or.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 07, 2020, 11:32:13 AM
Interesting, thanks for detailed update. In hind sight you're saying those priorities should have been flipped with the antibody development taking precedent over the vaccine or both routes treated more equally in importance?
Glad to hear the task force helped with some of the support for trails/production in what appears to be a pretty promising treatment cocktail and it wasn't negligence/denial that jockey throws around with no evidence.
Your criticism is that they're should have been more support/funding if I'm reading you correctly? With more support these treatments you think might have been readily available by now?
Gooo pretty much has it right. By no means should the priorities have been flipped. But the monoclonal antibody therapies should have been better funded, both at Regeneron and other options. For an extra $1-2B, we could have these treatments in widespread usage right now around the nation.
In my opinion, the WH lost sight of the forest for the trees. They looked at this as an election issue. Getting a vaccine by Election Day became priority number 1, 2, and 3. They lost focus on the overall picture and long term plan/goals.
Also my opinion, and not at all related to any information I have from others, but I believe that member of the Trump administration did not, and still do not, fully understand the difference between antibody treatments from convalescence plasma, and these monoclonal cocktails. I think this led some in the administration to simply decide, the convalescent plasma would be a sufficient bridge to a vaccine.
I also think their absurd belief that HCQ was truly a miracle cure, disrupted funding to more promising options.
Quote from: tower912 on October 07, 2020, 02:55:11 PM
Both/and, not either/or.
Yep. I only parenthetically added 'overemphasis?' for those who are concerned with the total $$$ outlay, in which case the funding could have been more balanced.
But on this one, I agree - we should have properly funded both, instead of focusing disproportionately on vaccines and practically ignoring monoclonal antibodies.
Quote from: forgetful on October 07, 2020, 02:55:29 PM
Also my opinion, and not at all related to any information I have from others, but I believe that member of the Trump administration did not, and still do not, fully understand the difference between antibody treatments from convalescence plasma, and these monoclonal cocktails. I think this led some in the administration to simply decide, the convalescent plasma would be a sufficient bridge to a vaccine.
I know that's just speculation on your part (which you acknowledge), but it would be an inexcusable misunderstanding given the gravity of the crisis. Not beyond belief...but inexcusable.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 07, 2020, 10:47:46 AM
Have they ever been asked why these monoclonal antibodies weren't included? Would be interesting to see if the medical folks consulting Operation Warp Speed fought for the inclusion and told no for some reason or if it was really never discussed by Fauci, Birx, etc.. as an option.
Because Trump put the Secretary of Failure in charge
Jared Kushner, leave it up to the states and the markets.
And
here
we
are
I think it is also only fair to add additional reasons for why Regeneron was largely the only monoclonal therapy targeted in operation warp speed.
Trump regularly golfs with the CEO of Regeneron, and as recently as 2017 (unknown about current status) owned stock in Regeneron.
Quote from: forgetful on October 08, 2020, 10:25:10 AM
I think it is also only fair to add additional reasons for why Regeneron was largely the only monoclonal therapy targeted in operation warp speed.
Trump regularly golfs with the CEO of Regeneron, and as recently as 2017 (unknown about current status) owned stock in Regeneron.
Makes one wonder if they would have ignored monoclonals altogether if not for Trump's golfing buddy.
On the treatments front. Anybody ever take dexamethasone? The more I read about it, it seems safe, but also seems that you shouldn't try to do your day job while taking it.
Curious of any firsthand experience?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 08, 2020, 05:42:50 PM
On the treatments front. Anybody ever take dexamethasone? The more I read about it, it seems safe, but also seems that you shouldn't try to do your day job while taking it.
Curious of any firsthand experience?
We also don't know if it was a single dose or he is getting it daily. He even forces his doctors to sign NDAs, so we may never know.
If he is taking it daily, buckle up. It's gonna be a rough ride.
Quote from: Jockey on October 08, 2020, 06:43:14 PM
We also don't know if it was a single dose or he is getting it daily. He even forces his doctors to sign NDAs, so we may never know.
If he is taking it daily, buckle up. It's gonna be a rough ride.
Today he also admitted he pushed/asked for some of his treatments. So, there's that.
This is pretty effen good:
The antibody cocktail for Covid-19 that President Trump touted on Wednesday afternoon was developed with cells originally derived from fetal tissue, a practice that his administration has moved to restrict.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/08/world/covid-coronavirus?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20201008&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=40317&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-treatment-that-trump-touted-as-a-cure-for-covid-19-was-developed-using-cells-derived-from-fetal-tissue
In June 2019, the Trump administration suspended federal funding for most new scientific research involving fetal tissue derived from abortions.
"Promoting the dignity of human life from conception to natural death is one of the very top priorities of President Trump's administration," the Department of Health and Human Services said in a statement in 2019, around the time of the ban.
"Intramural research that requires new acquisition of fetal tissue from elective abortions will not be conducted," the statement added.
Mr. Trump last week received Regeneron's cocktail of monoclonal antibodies — essentially, antibodies synthesized in living cells and administered to help the body fight off the infection.
To develop the antibodies, Regeneron relied on 293T, a cell line derived from the kidney tissue of an aborted fetus in the 1970s. At least two companies racing to produce vaccines against the coronavirus, Moderna and AstraZeneca, also are using the cell line.
Quote from: MU82 on October 08, 2020, 07:06:46 PM
This is pretty effen good:
The antibody cocktail for Covid-19 that President Trump touted on Wednesday afternoon was developed with cells originally derived from fetal tissue, a practice that his administration has moved to restrict.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/08/world/covid-coronavirus?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20201008&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=40317&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-treatment-that-trump-touted-as-a-cure-for-covid-19-was-developed-using-cells-derived-from-fetal-tissue
In June 2019, the Trump administration suspended federal funding for most new scientific research involving fetal tissue derived from abortions.
"Promoting the dignity of human life from conception to natural death is one of the very top priorities of President Trump's administration," the Department of Health and Human Services said in a statement in 2019, around the time of the ban.
"Intramural research that requires new acquisition of fetal tissue from elective abortions will not be conducted," the statement added.
Mr. Trump last week received Regeneron's cocktail of monoclonal antibodies — essentially, antibodies synthesized in living cells and administered to help the body fight off the infection.
To develop the antibodies, Regeneron relied on 293T, a cell line derived from the kidney tissue of an aborted fetus in the 1970s. At least two companies racing to produce vaccines against the coronavirus, Moderna and AstraZeneca, also are using the cell line.
Most biochemical research relies on 293T cells. You name a modern discovery and I'm almost certain those cells were used somewhere along the way.
Can I ask to my more science/biology informed people why that fetus was so special?
Why can the 293T cell not be used from others?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 08, 2020, 10:35:18 PM
Can I ask to my more science/biology informed people why that fetus was so special?
Why can the 293T cell not be used from others?
Some very general information. This is an old cell line, originally formed in the 1970s. The 293T has very little meaning relative to the original source material. It was simply the 293rd attempt at making a stable cell line from human embryonic kidney cells (hence them being more commonly referred to as HEK293 cells). The 293T is a later derivative where they have incorporated the simian vacuolating virus 40 T antigen (SV40). Incorporating SV40 T-antigen makes protein expression in these cell lines more efficient.
There was really nothing special about the fetus. Back then, it was just hard to generate a stable cell line, hence 293 attempts, it is believed that this cell line is not actually a kidney derived cell line but likely derived from adrenal tissue accidentally present in the sample.
In modern research there are tons of different cell lines used depending on what you are actually studying. The advantage of HEK293 cells is that they are very easy to maintain, very easy to introduce foreign DNA into (called transfection), which makes them very efficient producers of proteins of interest (recombinant protein expression).
And since they are easy to maintain and propagate, research labs around the world are still using cells derived from that first experiment in the 70's. Being quite honest, those cells from a single legally aborted fetus in the 70's has saved millions and millions of lives.
A second phase 3 vaccine study has been paused due to an adverse event in a participant. First the Astra Zeneca trial, and today the Johnson & Johnson trial.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/12/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-study-paused-due-to-unexplained-illness-in-participant/
This is not shocking – it happens all the time in clinical trials – but shows why it was foolish to promise aggressive timelines that clearly assumed everything would go perfectly. It never does in drug/vaccine research.
Has anyone gotten one of the 100 million doses of Covid 19 vaccines that White House CoS Mark Meadows promised would be ready to go by the end of October?
It's November after all.
Quote from: pbiflyer on November 01, 2020, 02:37:26 PM
Has anyone gotten one of the 100 million doses of Covid 19 vaccines that White House CoS Mark Meadows promised would be ready to go by the end of October?
It's November after all.
I hear you have to go to the wall that Mexico built to get it. Only way to get there is on all the new infrastructure. But, you can only get the vaccine, if you are enrolled in the big new beautiful health care plan.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Mink_-_Lower_Saranac_Lake.jpg)
Damn those cute little mink!
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Denmark-finds-covid-strain-that-might-hamper-15701598.php
Quote from: forgetful on November 01, 2020, 07:24:48 PM
I hear you have to go to the wall that Mexico built to get it. Only way to get there is on all the new infrastructure. But, you can only get the vaccine, if you are enrolled in the big new beautiful health care plan.
Wow, you really put a bow on that!
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on November 05, 2020, 02:21:02 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Mink_-_Lower_Saranac_Lake.jpg)
Damn those cute little mink!
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Denmark-finds-covid-strain-that-might-hamper-15701598.php
A nasal spray that blocks the virus worked well in a study that tested it on ferrets. If it works in humans, it could be a new way to fight the pandemic, with a daily spritz up the nose.
Maybe the mink can get ahold of that!
Quote from: MU82 on November 06, 2020, 08:31:02 AM
A nasal spray that blocks the virus worked well in a study that tested it on ferrets. If it works in humans, it could be a new way to fight the pandemic, with a daily spritz up the nose.
Maybe the mink can get ahold of that!
How would you like to be the lucky lab tech who got the spray stuff up ferrets' noses while trying not to get bitten?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 06, 2020, 03:44:50 PM
How would you like to be the lucky lab tech who got the spray stuff up ferrets' noses while trying not to get bitten?
I mean, it's probably better than having to administer a suppository!
Sounds like Pfizer vaccine is very effective. Great news if the trial gets some more safety data.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html
(https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 06:24:31 AM
Sounds like Pfizer vaccine is very effective. Great news if the trial gets some more safety data.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html
(https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html)
Amazing news!! Blows the doors off the expectations of 60-70% efficacy.
Congrats Pfizer, starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. With a vaccine now showing 90% efficacy and at the doorstep of being made available to the public should all federal funds move towards this one vaccine to ramp up production as quickly as possible?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on November 09, 2020, 07:00:59 AM
Amazing news!! Blows the doors off the expectations of 60-70% efficacy.
Congrats Pfizer, starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. With a vaccine now showing 90% efficacy and at the doorstep of being made available to the public should all federal funds move towards this one vaccine to ramp up production as quickly as possible?
I have read having multiple versions can be helpful, for example the I believe it is the Johnson & Johnson one that only requires one shot, versus 2 for this and the other ones. Some other trials also have vaccines that can be stored at different temperatures, which again can help with the scalability since not all medical offices have the right storage units to keep the vaccines cold enough.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-114500360.html
This is good news. However, I suspect that it will end up being an annual vaccine, like the flu shot. Unless the anti-bodies last.
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2020, 07:20:52 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-114500360.html
This is good news. However, I suspect that it will end up being an annual vaccine, like the flu shot. Unless the anti-bodies last.
Reason number 17 why Pfizer's stock will go to $99999999999 per share today.
If, a big if, Pfizer's vaccine becomes available in later 2021, the important part...
"The vaccine will be available for free to all Americans."
Also of note, Pfizer didn't take any federal money and was not a part of operation Warp Speed.
Pfizer is the hardest to distribute however. Two doses and cold storage.
I didn't know this...from the times article
"We were never part of the Warp Speed," she said. "We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone."
Good to see this quote from the Post report.
"The results are really quite good, I mean extraordinary," said Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, adding that the results might bode well for a vaccine being developed by biotech firm Moderna and his institute that uses a similar technology, "which gives you hope we might even have two vaccines."
Also great news. The fact the virologists are so excited really leave me encouraged. They have been a tough bunch urging caution with all treatments and developments along the way.
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1325806460937392128?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1325806460937392128?s=21)
So when do their trials conclude that this'd even begin to go to production?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 09, 2020, 08:40:39 AM
So when do their trials conclude that this'd even begin to go to production?
I think the latter is already happening. From what i have read, the trial will continue to conclusion, however this gives them almost enough info to do an emergency use authorization (need a few more weeks of safety data). That allows them to give it to healthcare workers and high risk in the interim. For the 'people' this is a 21 event (maybe even mid year or entering fall)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 08:48:20 AM
I think the latter is already happening. From what i have read, the trial will continue to conclusion, however this gives them almost enough info to do an emergency use authorization (need a few more weeks of safety data). That allows them to give it to healthcare workers and high risk in the interim. For the 'people' this is a 21 event (maybe even mid year or entering fall)
So now's the time to carb up to obese levels, start smoking and really play up seasonal asthma if I want to get it?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 09, 2020, 08:50:04 AM
So now's the time to carb up to obese levels, start smoking and really play up seasonal asthma if I want to get it?
I think you would have better luck if you move into a nursing home.
Join your local police/fire/EMS department.
This is great news!
As others have mentioned...given the temperature requirements and the need for two doses, we need to be prepared for several more months of masks, social distancing and other precautions. I hope the news doesn't cause the public to let its guard down even further than it already has.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 09, 2020, 08:40:39 AM
So when do their trials conclude that this'd even begin to go to production?
Roughly speaking, if all is successful, and, that is a big if, April ish at the earliest for more mass distribution according to those working on it.
The key takeaway from this story is the more about the 90% efficacy so far which is very encouraging.
The hope is that there could be multiple vaccines available, Spring, Summer, or Fall of 2021.
We'll see.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 09:06:09 AM
This is great news!
As others have mentioned...given the temperature requirements and the need for two doses, we need to be prepared for several more months of masks, social distancing and other precautions. I hope the news doesn't cause the public to let its guard down even further than it already has.
I am just so happy for the healthcare workers. It's going to be a tough winter and they will be protected.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 08:30:39 AM
I didn't know this...from the times article
"We were never part of the Warp Speed," she said. "We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone."
This hasn't stopped those in power from claiming credit.
But the important thing is they need 2 more months of data analysis/collection, and then can begin distribution. Excellent news.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 09:34:15 AM
This hasn't stopped those in power from claiming credit.
But the important thing is they need 2 more months of data analysis/collection, and then can begin distribution. Excellent news.
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum? Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on November 09, 2020, 09:44:44 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum? Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?
I would guess the timelines around vaccines are pretty rigid, even when being fast tracked. Regardless of when Inauguration Day is.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on November 09, 2020, 09:44:44 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum? Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?
Because there are specific protocols to go through. Pfizer says they won't be done with their test before the end of November. Then they will present their findings.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-114500360.html
Actually in the link provided earlier in the thread. I know, because I read the link before I shared it.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on November 09, 2020, 09:44:44 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum? Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?
For EUA it is being reported they need a few more weeks (not months) of safety data -- which will give them the 2 months required.
From the NY Times report:
"Pfizer plans to ask the Food and Drug Administration for emergency authorization of the two-dose vaccine later this month, after it has collected the recommended two months of safety data. By the end of the year it will have manufactured enough doses to immunize 15 to 20 million people, company executives have said."
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on November 09, 2020, 09:44:44 AM
Why 2 more months before they can get EUA at minimum? Why such a specific timeline needed before distribution?
The article I read said they wanted 2 more months of data. I think it was partially inaccurate (likely journalist mis-stating aspects of an interview), in that they need a minimum of 2-months of safety data. Looks to be on track for initial use by late December.
Multiple healthcare profs are highlighting this thread if you want to know what this means and doesn't mean (trial wise) and why continuing the trial is important.
https://twitter.com/nataliexdean/status/1325820512946302977?s=21 (https://twitter.com/nataliexdean/status/1325820512946302977?s=21)
Interesting question now regarding possible shutdowns. Does this change the calculus. We can be reasonably confident now that there will be a vaccine readily available in 3-6 months.
With things as bad as they are, and getting worse. Do you focus on saving lives with another shutdown, knowing that in 3-6 months no more shutdowns would be needed?
If for no other reason, to avoid the risk of a mutated form (see minks) that may be resistant to the vaccine. More spread, more chance of mutation.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 10:07:54 AM
Interesting question now regarding possible shutdowns. Does this change the calculus. We can be reasonably confident now that there will be a vaccine readily available in 3-6 months.
With things as bad as they are, and getting worse. Do you focus on saving lives with another shutdown, knowing that in 3-6 months no more shutdowns would be needed?
If for no other reason, to avoid the risk of a mutated form (see minks) that may be resistant to the vaccine. More spread, more chance of mutation.
From a scientific perspective, you have a great point. There is a very good argument that can be made to shut things down for several weeks to tamp down the current exponential growth, and to reduce the risk of further mutations.
But I fear politicians and the general public will be influenced by the headline, making it a difficult (impossible?) sell. As I indicated earlier, my biggest fear is that this causes even more lax compliance with, and enforcement of, social distancing and mask requirements.
If I were to bet, from here forward shut-downs are going to be dictated at the local and state level and will be based on hospital stress. Also, we know more about what needs to close, so more targeted versus blanket.
Like this:
https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge (https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge)
Also notice who was referenced as providing advice from the the Feds.
All this news makes the Scott Atlas experiment look really silly...
Really great summary of the implications of today's news.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/09/four-reasons-for-encouragement-based-on-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-results/ (https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/09/four-reasons-for-encouragement-based-on-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-results/)
Quote from: tower912 on November 09, 2020, 09:54:46 AM
Actually in the link provided earlier in the thread. I know, because I read the link before I shared it.
Nice
Dr.Murphy from Northwestern on the radio right now says that they are waiting two months after the last participant got the second dose.
Apologies for being lazy and not looking it up myself. How is the 90% calculated? Is it that 90% less trial participants have contracted covid than a similar representative control group? Or 90% more show antibodies? Just curious.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 09, 2020, 12:19:13 PM
Apologies for being lazy and not looking it up myself. How is the 90% calculated? Is it that 90% less trial participants have contracted covid than a similar representative control group? Or 90% more show antibodies? Just curious.
Here is a link from the NIH, but I'm not smart enough to read it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/)
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 10:01:17 AM
The article I read said they wanted 2 more months of data. I think it was partially inaccurate (likely journalist mis-stating aspects of an interview), in that they need a minimum of 2-months of safety data. Looks to be on track for initial use by late December.
I saw it the same way. There are 2 main questions with a vaccine. Does it work? Is it safe?
The first is the easiest to answer and the news is good. The second requires time. Even then, safety is not a certainty. As we have seen with many drugs over the years - they appear to be safe, until they aren't. Two months is not long enough to determine if there are long-term affects, but the trade-off is probably worth it in this case because of the rate at which people are dying.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 12:27:17 PM
Here is a link from the NIH, but I'm not smart enough to read it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7361120/)
Hah. I can read it, but I don't understand it! Fine, I searched myself, the CDC has a easier-to-understand answer:
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dsepd/ss1978/lesson3/section6.html
"So a VE of 90% indicates a 90% reduction in disease occurrence among the vaccinated group, or a 90% reduction from the number of cases you would expect if they have not been vaccinated."
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 10:47:44 AM
If I were to bet, from here forward shut-downs are going to be dictated at the local and state level and will be based on hospital stress. Also, we know more about what needs to close, so more targeted versus blanket.
Like this:
https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge (https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-herbert-declares-new-state-of-emergency-to-address-hospital-overcrowding-case-surge)
Also notice who was referenced as providing advice from the the Feds.
All this news makes the Scott Atlas experiment look really silly...
I have a feeling more and more state and local officials will be listening directly to Fauci, Birx and Redfield, and simply ignoring the background noise from the White House.
I also suspect that if any of them get fired by POTUS for speaking up (a very real possibility), Biden will scoop them up and put them on his task force.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 09, 2020, 01:53:59 PM
I have a feeling more and more state and local officials will be listening directly to Fauci, Birx and Redfield, and simply ignoring the background noise from the White House.
I also suspect that if any of them get fired by POTUS for speaking up (a very real possibility), Biden will scoop them up and put them on his task force.
I'm hoping Biden will put whoever he feels can best perform the job, and not just take someone to spite Donald Trump.
Quote from: BLM on November 09, 2020, 02:15:55 PM
I'm hoping Biden will put whoever he feels can best perform the job, and not just take someone to spite Donald Trump.
Agreed. But they have been in the midst of this since the beginning, so it's hard to imagine many people who would be more qualified. Fauci and Birx in particular have unparalleled credentials and experience. Redfield perhaps a little less so, but his time at the top of CDC would at least have made him privy to information that hardly anyone else would have.
Perhaps another way to say the same thing - IMO, they
would be the most qualified people if they suddenly became available.
A question for the experts here.
Obviously there is promising news from Pfizer. The bad news is that their vaccine requires cold storage - up to 100 degrees below zero.
My question is - do we have the capability to do this on a large scale? It would seem to preclude giving the vaccine at a doctor's office. I don't know that Walgreens or CVS have the capability for storage on the scale that is needed.
From what I read, they have developed special cold storage containers to get the vaccine though the distribution process.
We?
Sounds like Pfizer is planning on doing it themselves:
https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/pfizer-sidelines-us-government-covid-19-vaccine-distribution-plan-favor-its-own-reports
https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-designed-new-container-and-plans-to-tap-shipping-companies-for-covid-19
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 09, 2020, 03:47:36 PM
We?
Sounds like Pfizer is planning on doing it themselves:
https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/pfizer-sidelines-us-government-covid-19-vaccine-distribution-plan-favor-its-own-reports
https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/pfizer-designed-new-container-and-plans-to-tap-shipping-companies-for-covid-19
Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today. I wonder why.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 03:55:26 PM
Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today. I wonder why.
They did not take money from the US government if I remember correctly. They were not a part of Warp Speed despite what Pence claimed today.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 03:55:26 PM
Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today. I wonder why.
Because the WH has been really overt about (erroneously) claiming that Pifzer's project was funded by OWS, and Pfizer wants full credit for their efforts.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-celebrates-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-but-government-didnt-fund-2020-11
"We were never part of the Warp Speed," Kathrin Jansen, a senior vice president and the head of vaccine research and development at Pfizer, told The New York Times. "We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone."
Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla in September told CBS News' Margaret Brennan that the company was taking somewhat of a risk by not taking taxpayer money to help with the vaccine, but that it wouldn't "break" the pharmaceutical giant.
"I wanted to liberate our scientists from any bureaucracy," Bourla said. "When you get money from someone, that always comes with strings. They want to see how we are growing to progress, what types of moves you are going to do. They want reports. I didn't want to have any of that."
Quote from: Jockey on November 09, 2020, 03:39:58 PM
A question for the experts here.
Obviously there is promising news from Pfizer. The bad news is that their vaccine requires cold storage - up to 100 degrees below zero.
My question is - do we have the capability to do this on a large scale? It would seem to preclude giving the vaccine at a doctor's office. I don't know that Walgreens or CVS have the capability for storage on the scale that is needed.
Although non-trivial, there are ways to get this to work. My lab alone, probably has enough storage for 10k-20k doses or more (depending on size).
In other areas, there are alternatives that can be designed. For instance, a storage container surrounded by dry-ice and isopropanol (isopropyl-alcohol), will maintain a temperature cold enough, and can be resupplied with more dry-ice.
And Pfizer has a lot of really bright people working on this exact issue for awhile. Off the top of my head, I can come up with about a dozen possible strategies, that given an engineering team and a modest budget and I'm pretty confident I could come up with something that would work. That's just me, who doesn't do logistics for a living. Pfizer has teams of people that have done this a lifetime.
Quote from: Jockey on November 09, 2020, 04:17:51 PM
They did not take money from the US government if I remember correctly. They were not a part of Warp Speed despite what Pence claimed today.
Correct me if I am wrong.
They have not taken money from Warp Speed to help develop the vaccine.
However, they are part of Warp Speed's purchase program. The US will buy 100 million doses of an effective vaccine for nearly $2 billion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine.html
So Pence isn't 100% wrong when he says they are part of OWS, but federal money had no bearing on the development of the vaccine.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 09, 2020, 04:26:23 PM
They have not taken money from Warp Speed to help develop the vaccine.
However, they are part of Warp Speed's purchase program. The US will buy 100 million doses of an effective vaccine for nearly $2 billion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine.html
So Pence isn't 100% wrong when he says they are part of OWS, but federal money had no bearing on the development of the vaccine.
Pence said this was the result of their unprecedented public-private partnership. That is false. It was done without government funds or direction.
If someone wants to give a president credit. First credit goes to George Bush, who created the initiative to greatly expand vaccine technology that directly led to the methodologies used here. Second credit goes to Obama, who expanded that initiative.
Without them, the decades+ of research that allowed this to be done at all, and also as quickly as it was, would be non-existent.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 04:31:07 PM
Pence said this was the result of their unprecedented public-private partnership. That is false. It was done without government funds or direction.
If someone wants to give a president credit. First credit goes to George Bush, who created the initiative to greatly expand vaccine technology that directly led to the methodologies used here. Second credit goes to Obama, who expanded that initiative.
Without them, the decades+ of research that allowed this to be done at all, and also as quickly as it was, would be non-existent.
Yep.
Taking credit for a public/private partnership that didn't exist is just par for the course for this Administration.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 04:24:57 PM
Although non-trivial, there are ways to get this to work. My lab alone, probably has enough storage for 10k-20k doses or more (depending on size).
In other areas, there are alternatives that can be designed. For instance, a storage container surrounded by dry-ice and isopropanol (isopropyl-alcohol), will maintain a temperature cold enough, and can be resupplied with more dry-ice.
And Pfizer has a lot of really bright people working on this exact issue for awhile. Off the top of my head, I can come up with about a dozen possible strategies, that given an engineering team and a modest budget and I'm pretty confident I could come up with something that would work. That's just me, who doesn't do logistics for a living. Pfizer has teams of people that have done this a lifetime.
Thanks, man. That is the type of answer I was looking for.
Potentially life-saving news here ...
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/09/world/covid-19-coronavirus-live-updates?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20201109&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=44072&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#the-fda-gave-emergency-approval-to-eli-lillys-antibody-treatment
The Food and Drug Administration has granted emergency authorization of a Covid-19 treatment made by Eli Lilly that was given to Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor, when he was infected with the coronavirus.
The decision, announced on Monday by the agency, applies only to people newly infected with the virus, and came with a warning that it should not be used in hospitalized patients. The treatment is approved for people 12 and older, who have tested positive, and who are at risk for developing a severe form of Covid-19 or being hospitalized for the condition. That includes people who are over 65 and obese, the agency said — a key group that early studies have shown can benefit the most from the treatment.
Eli Lilly said that its treatment, called bamlanivimab, should be administered as soon as possible after a positive test, and within 10 days of developing symptoms.
It comes with a warning that it shouldn't be used in hospitalized patients? Wasn't Christie hospitalized when he got it?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 09, 2020, 03:55:26 PM
Pfizer has been really overt about pointing out that they are doing their own thing separate from OWS today. I wonder why.
I read this decision was an attempt to distance itself from the potential politics and maximize the number of people willing to take the vaccine, if successful. Not pointed out to say they didn't benefit from the govt infrastructure that has been helping to speed trials and pre buying doses.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-coronavirus-drug-vaccine-status/
Bloomberg with a solid graphic updating us on where all these companies are with their vaccine candidates. Nice to see graphically because this has all been a bit much to keep straight.
(https://i.imgur.com/4EB1pSs.png) (https://i.imgur.com/4EB1pSs.png)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 10, 2020, 06:05:04 AM
I read this decision was an attempt to distance itself from the potential politics and maximize the number of people willing to take the vaccine, if successful. Not pointed out to say they didn't benefit from the govt infrastructure that has been helping to speed trials and pre buying doses.
Had two people tell me yesterday they won't take it
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 10, 2020, 06:57:09 AM
Had two people tell me yesterday they won't take it
Did they give a reason? It seems to be far enough removed from the government that a substandard vaccine isn't being approved for political reasons.
Quote from: cheebs09 on November 10, 2020, 08:33:07 AM
Did they give a reason? It seems to be far enough removed from the government that a substandard vaccine isn't being approved for political reasons.
One said they've never taken a flu shot, so he's not going to take this one. The other one said he just wasn't taking it. Both lean right, one way right. To be fair, another person I know that lean way right is taking it as soon as he can
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 10, 2020, 08:38:13 AM
One said they've never taken a flu shot, so he's not going to take this one. The other one said he just wasn't taking it. Both lean right, one way right. To be fair, another person I know that lean way right is taking it as soon as he can
Sounds like it's a view on vaccines in general versus the politicization risk that was building pre election
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 10, 2020, 06:57:09 AM
Had two people tell me yesterday they won't take it
I'd wait a few months before taking it to see if any zombie-like side effects appear.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 10, 2020, 09:05:15 AM
Sounds like it's a view on vaccines in general versus the politicization risk that was building pre election
Yep...especially the person who said they'd never had a flu shot.
Anyhow, I hope your theory plays out the way you suggest...that the distance Pfizer kept between their vaccine and the politics will encourage more people to be confident in its safety and efficacy.
On a related note, infectious disease experts at Mayo Clinic are very excited about the potential of this vaccine.
https://www.medcitybeat.com/news-blog/2020/mayo-researchers-respond-pfizer-vaccine-results
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 10, 2020, 10:05:33 AM
I'd wait a few months before taking it to see if any zombie-like side effects appear.
I have a feeling that anyone outside of frontline healthcare workers will be waiting a few months whether they like it or not. If our doctors and nurses aren't turning into zombies by the time the rest of us can get it, that will be good enough for me.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 10, 2020, 09:05:15 AM
Sounds like it's a view on vaccines in general versus the politicization risk that was building pre election
Entirely possible but it's still disappointing
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 10, 2020, 10:08:01 AM
I have a feeling that anyone outside of frontline healthcare workers will be waiting a few months whether they like it or not. If our doctors and nurses aren't turning into zombies by the time the rest of us can get it, that will be good enough for me.
^^^^
This, I want to know its safe and effective, but there's really no chance "regular folks" are getting a vaccine until maybe March (earliest - I've head that's the target for elder/at risk patients). In a perfect world first doses are in Dec, but quantities won't be there until mid-late 2021 for the rest of us.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2020, 10:59:45 AM
^^^^
This, I want to know its safe and effective, but there's really no chance "regular folks" are getting a vaccine until maybe March (earliest - I've head that's the target for elder/at risk patients). In a perfect world first doses are in Dec, but quantities won't be there until mid-late 2021 for the rest of us.
That's what the experts have said all along, but people don't wanna do science.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2020, 10:59:45 AM
^^^^
This, I want to know its safe and effective, but there's really no chance "regular folks" are getting a vaccine until maybe March (earliest - I've head that's the target for elder/at risk patients). In a perfect world first doses are in Dec, but quantities won't be there until mid-late 2021 for the rest of us.
As long as I get to go to first round NCAAs this year. Vaccine March 1st, on a plane March 17th, hanging with 20k other vaccinated folks March 18th/20th.
Holding out hope for the J&J one, as I believe it is the only major player testing out a single dose.
Quote from: pbiflyer on November 10, 2020, 01:26:59 PM
As long as I get to go to first round NCAAs this year. Vaccine March 1st, on a plane March 17th, hanging with 20k other vaccinated folks March 18th/20th.
I've got some bridges (and vials of vaccines) to sell you :)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 10, 2020, 10:08:01 AM
I have a feeling that anyone outside of frontline healthcare workers will be waiting a few months whether they like it or not. If our doctors and nurses aren't turning into zombies by the time the rest of us can get it, that will be good enough for me.
So you arent waiting for EU approval anymore? Hyperbole much?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2020, 01:36:38 PM
I've got some bridges (and vials of vaccines) to sell you :)
Quit crushing my fantasy world.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on November 10, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
So you arent waiting for EU approval anymore? Hyperbole much?
My guess is of had been an OWS company that he'd still be waiting on EU approval. Different situation when it a non politicized company.
Quote from: forgetful on November 09, 2020, 04:31:07 PM
Pence said this was the result of their unprecedented public-private partnership. That is false. It was done without government funds or direction.
If someone wants to give a president credit. First credit goes to George Bush, who created the initiative to greatly expand vaccine technology that directly led to the methodologies used here. Second credit goes to Obama, who expanded that initiative.
Without them, the decades+ of research that allowed this to be done at all, and also as quickly as it was, would be non-existent.
Didn't the government pre-pay for $2 billion worth of doses
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 10, 2020, 03:01:20 PM
Didn't the government pre-pay for $2 billion worth of doses
No. The government agreed to pay $2 billion for 100 million doses if it proved to be effective. This purchasing program is part of Warp Speed as well.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 10, 2020, 03:04:03 PM
No. The government agreed to pay $2 billion for 100 million doses if it proved to be effective. This purchasing program is part of Warp Speed as well.
Thanks.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 10, 2020, 02:43:05 PM
My guess is of had been an OWS company that he'd still be waiting on EU approval. Different situation when it a non politicized company.
We have a winner!
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 10, 2020, 02:43:05 PM
My guess is of had been an OWS company that he'd still be waiting on EU approval. Different situation when it a non politicized company.
Yeah it takes just a little common sense to figure out.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 10, 2020, 03:36:48 PM
We have a winner!
FDA still has to approve it. Too political still?
Mainly busting balls, BLM doesnt get it (doesnt get much) but figured you would.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on November 11, 2020, 12:12:36 PM
FDA still has to approve it. Too political still?
Mainly busting balls, BLM doesnt get it (doesnt get much) but figured you would.
Ouch!
Can you blame me, though? I'm just a rich white kid, ai'na?
Quote from: BLM on November 11, 2020, 12:27:48 PM
Ouch!
Can you blame me, though? I'm just a rich white kid, ai'na?
You should change your screen name to white privilege.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on November 11, 2020, 03:51:42 PM
You should change your screen name to white privilege.
Appreciate the recommendation. BLM triggers enough snowflakes around here, so I think I'll stick with what I've got.
Not the best optics ...
From the WSJ:
Shortly after Pfizer's share price surged Monday on news that its coronavirus vaccine was 90 percent effective, CEO Albert Bourla sold $5.6 million in company shares, amounting to 60 percent of his holdings. And he's not alone: Execs at Moderna and Novavax did the same thing after positive news broke about their vaccines.
The companies, and even savvy investors, say it's not unusual. Such executives often keep their shares in programs that unload company stock on predetermined dates or when prices hit certain targets. Nonetheless, some experts say it could erode confidence in the vaccines, which most Americans are already skeptical of.
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2020, 07:03:20 AM
Not the best optics ...
From the WSJ:
Shortly after Pfizer's share price surged Monday on news that its coronavirus vaccine was 90 percent effective, CEO Albert Bourla sold $5.6 million in company shares, amounting to 60 percent of his holdings. And he's not alone: Execs at Moderna and Novavax did the same thing after positive news broke about their vaccines.
The companies, and even savvy investors, say it's not unusual. Such executives often keep their shares in programs that unload company stock on predetermined dates or when prices hit certain targets. Nonetheless, some experts say it could erode confidence in the vaccines, which most Americans are already skeptical of.
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.
Some would say it is bad optics to tout snake oil. Or go public before you have your ducks in a row
Quote from: tower912 on November 12, 2020, 07:29:07 AM
Some would say it is bad optics to tout snake oil. Or go public before you have your ducks in a row
I am not defending Trump (I can't stand him), but for people to say Pfizer, or it's announcement is nonpolitical is disingenuous.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 07:26:09 AM
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.
They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either way, 70m+ people are going to be salty.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 07:48:39 AM
I am not defending Trump (I can't stand him), but for people to say Pfizer, or it's announcement is nonpolitical is disingenuous.
Hogwash. They have nothing to gain from a later announcement. Put the conspiracy theories to rest.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 07:26:09 AM
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ce7639ae29551105309e02665c155f86/tenor.gif?itemid=12023643)
Iz hogwash anythin' moor dan soap and water? Axin' four a friend, hey?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 12, 2020, 07:59:51 AM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ce7639ae29551105309e02665c155f86/tenor.gif?itemid=12023643)
Why did Ezekial Emanuel (Biden's guy) author a letter to Bouria is September telling him to slow down the predictions of when the vaccine would be ready?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 12, 2020, 08:05:09 AM
Iz hogwash anythin' moor dan soap and water? Axin' four a friend, hey?
It's pig food, not what you clean them with.
Voter fraud. Conspiracies about vaccines (and news about vaccines) being held off to make sure Sleepy Joe gets elected president. I'm loving this stuff. Highly entertaining.
Can we please not get this thread locked and move onto another topic. This has been a helpful source of info.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 07:48:39 AM
I am not defending Trump (I can't stand him), but for people to say Pfizer, or it's announcement is nonpolitical is disingenuous.
Or: Science
https://ldi.upenn.edu/news/five-ldi-senior-fellows-among-65-top-health-experts-letter-cautioning-pfizer-ceo-against
Eroding public trust
"In a Sept. 25 letter to Bouria, 65 of the nation's top academic health authorities told the CEO Pfizer's accelerated vaccine process was eroding public trust in ways that could ultimately cause enough people to refuse to take the drug, preventing the achievement of national herd immunity. Signing the letter were individual leaders from U.S. medical schools, including the University of Pennsylvania, University of California, Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Duke, Vanderbilt, George Washington, California, Tulane, Washington, and others."
<snip>
Rigorous safety standard
"If your vaccine is 75 percent effective," their letter told the Pfizer executive, "an estimated two thirds of the population would need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. This vaccination rate would far exceed that of the annual influenza vaccine. To be successful, the public needs to have the utmost trust in the vaccine and the science behind it. This is why a rigorous safety standard based on science is so essential."
An unfortunately large swatch of the electorate listens to Scott Atlas, promotes Dr. Demon Sperm's remedies, and sees George Soros around every corner, but we'd be far better off as a country if we'd listen to science.
Quote from: lawdog77 on November 12, 2020, 07:26:09 AM
Some would say it was bad optics to hold off the announcement of 90% effectiveness until1 week after the election.
There are at least 3 guiding factors on when to make the announcement.
1. Most importantly, they need to have sufficient data and analysis to ensure that their vaccine is as effective as they want to/can claim. For instance, if they want to make the 90% announcement (instead of say a 75% announcement) they need more data and have to wait longer. The 90% number is a big one, and even if they had sufficient data to announce, say 75%, they would wait for the 90% number.
2. Next most important. Competition. They would like to make sure that their announcement is preferentially first, and most effective. So they will be keeping an eye on other vaccine progress. It is then a bit of a game of chicken, wait longer to make a higher effectiveness claim (be best) and make the all early enough to be first.
3. News cycles. For stock price purposes, and public perception, you want to make your announcement when it will dominate the news cycle.
What is absolutely not part of the process is politics.
Quote from: forgetful on November 12, 2020, 09:44:43 AM
There are at least 3 guiding factors on when to make the announcement.
1. Most importantly, they need to have sufficient data and analysis to ensure that their vaccine is as effective as they want to/can claim. For instance, if they want to make the 90% announcement (instead of say a 75% announcement) they need more data and have to wait longer. The 90% number is a big one, and even if they had sufficient data to announce, say 75%, they would wait for the 90% number.
2. Next most important. Competition. They would like to make sure that their announcement is preferentially first, and most effective. So they will be keeping an eye on other vaccine progress. It is then a bit of a game of chicken, wait longer to make a higher effectiveness claim (be best) and make the all early enough to be first.
3. News cycles. For stock price purposes, and public perception, you want to make your announcement when it will dominate the news cycle.
What is absolutely not part of the process is politics.
Agreed. There is HUGE $$$$ and prestige on the line, so it would be monumentally stupid to delay the announcement for anything but scientific or financial reasons.
Quote from: TSmith34 on November 12, 2020, 08:56:46 AM
Or: Science
https://ldi.upenn.edu/news/five-ldi-senior-fellows-among-65-top-health-experts-letter-cautioning-pfizer-ceo-against
Eroding public trust
"In a Sept. 25 letter to Bouria, 65 of the nation's top academic health authorities told the CEO Pfizer's accelerated vaccine process was eroding public trust in ways that could ultimately cause enough people to refuse to take the drug, preventing the achievement of national herd immunity. Signing the letter were individual leaders from U.S. medical schools, including the University of Pennsylvania, University of California, Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Duke, Vanderbilt, George Washington, California, Tulane, Washington, and others."
That quote does not sound like science to me. Sounds like these health authorities did not like who was giving the message.
Saw a chart today (Colorado, but likely standard) on the phases of vaccine distro.
Phase 1 was about medical/first responders, 1B was "highest risk" elderly.
Next was "Congregate Housing" people .. homeless shelters, adults in group homes, students in dorms (!!!) and adults in jail (!!!!) -- and also workers who were in those buildings.
Next, Higher Risk people .. Age 65+, others with risk factors, diabetes, obesity, lung disease, etc.
Last was the rest of us schlubs.
I'm having a bucket of KFC tonight to jump the line. Or rob a bank?
Also .. will you need to prove your health risk? "Yeah, I have asthma, gimme the shot now please."
I (and I think I can speak for many others here), wish to wholeheartedly thank Forgetful and Goo for all of the information that they have shared here.
There have been a few others as well, but I think those 2 guys stand out.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 13, 2020, 04:49:16 PM
Saw a chart today (Colorado, but likely standard) on the phases of vaccine distro.
Phase 1 was about medical/first responders, 1B was "highest risk" elderly.
Next was "Congregate Housing" people .. homeless shelters, adults in group homes, students in dorms (!!!) and adults in jail (!!!!) -- and also workers who were in those buildings.
Next, Higher Risk people .. Age 65+, others with risk factors, diabetes, obesity, lung disease, etc.
Last was the rest of us schlubs.
I'm having a bucket of KFC tonight to jump the line. Or rob a bank?
Also .. will you need to prove your health risk? "Yeah, I have asthma, gimme the shot now please."
More Arby's will be just fine.
With more than 100,000 new confirmed U.S. cases reported daily for more than a week, Trump has been more focused on tracking the rollout of a vaccine, which won't be widely available for months. He has fumed that Pfizer intentionally withheld an announcement about progress on its vaccine trial until after Election Day, according to a White House official who was not authorized to publicly comment and spoke on condition of anonymity. Pfizer said it did not purposely withhold trial results.
Because, as usual, it's all about one person. Every human and corporation is doing everything just to punish that one person. Such a victim. So sad.
It's a pre-planned stock sale for Pfizer CEO. What was not pre-planned was the date of the announcement, which could have been any other day. The announcement just so happened to be on the same day as his stock sale, and he pockets $5.6 million.
Quote from: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 09:21:15 AM
It's a pre-planned stock sale for Pfizer CEO. What was not pre-planned was the date of the announcement, which could have been any other day. The announcement just so happened to be on the same day as his stock sale, and he pockets $5.6 million.
I don't think this is precisely right. He likely had a 10b5-1 program in place that said if the stock hit a certain value sell automatically. This is used by people who are frequently locked out of the market for purposes of insider information and gives safe harbor since it is set up in advance. This would be particularly true in the case of a vaccine news coming. It would make it very difficult for executives to realize that portion of their compensation.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 14, 2020, 09:40:22 AM
I don't think this is precisely right. He likely had a 10b5-1 program in place that said if the stock hit a certain value sell automatically. This is used by people who are frequently locked out of the market for purposes of insider information and gives safe harbor since it is set up in advance. This would be particularly true in the case of a vaccine news coming. It would make it very difficult for executives to realize that portion of their compensation.
He announced that he was modifying/adopting the 10b5-1 plan ONE DAY before announce phase results data. And this came shortly before this weeks announcement. Many of course are wondering what he knew and when. But I am sure it's just a big coincidence. (Maybe he will be donating all of that money.)
Quote from: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 10:09:03 AM
He announced that he was modifying/adopting the 10b5-1 plan ONE DAY before announce phase results data. And this came shortly before this weeks announcement. Many of course are wondering what he knew and when. But I am sure it's just a big coincidence. (Maybe he will be donating all of that money.)
These are highly regulated processes involving corporate legal review. I'm sure he wanted to benefit from the fact that his company knocked it out of the park with both the first vaccine and a 90% effective vaccine. He however did not profit from that until the market knew the same information.
I can see why this is a story, but the mechanics of it are all proper and in place to ensure one doesn't trade on info until public.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 14, 2020, 11:09:24 AM
These are highly regulated processes involving corporate legal review. I'm sure he wanted to benefit from the fact that his company knocked it out of the park with both the first vaccine and a 90% effective vaccine. He however did not profit from that until the market knew the same information.
I can see why this is a story, but the mechanics of it are all proper and in place to ensure one doesn't trade on info until public.
Being technically legal and being a good thing are not necessarily the same thing.
Quote from: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 11:13:09 AM
Being technically legal and being a good thing are not necessarily the same thing.
If the stock didn't hit the price point he picked and it didn't trigger a sale it would be non-news. Being a covered employee is a huge pain in the ass, and they watch ALL of the trades you make not just the ones involving stock options. It's incredibly highly regulated. You're barking up the wrong tree here.
I have to call in and tell a central office every planned purchase or sale of anything in the stock market because of reasons. They get to approve or deny it. They literally have access to my brokerage/retirement accounts to monitor it all. It's a wild amount of oversight, and super hard to make money off of the information we know in advance.
Quote from: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 11:13:09 AM
Being technically legal and being a good thing are not necessarily the same thing.
You should just say your issue more plainly then. You don't believe people in the company should benefit from the value they created by solving a huge public need created by the virus.
This literally has been the best news and biggest positive surprise of the pandemic.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 14, 2020, 11:36:24 AM
You should just say your issue more plainly then. You don't believe people in the company should benefit from the value they created by solving a huge public need created by the virus.
This literally has been the best news and biggest positive surprise of the pandemic.
Agreed. Employees who own company stock should most definitely benefit from the value of what they created.
I only get upset about alleged insider trading when someone on the inside sells just before the stock price plummets...which clearly is NOT what happened here.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 14, 2020, 11:36:24 AM
You should just say your issue more plainly then. You don't believe people in the company should benefit from the value they created by solving a huge public need created by the virus.
This literally has been the best news and biggest positive surprise of the pandemic.
If anything, this is my issue:
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
Quote from: shoothoops on November 14, 2020, 03:26:42 PM
If anything, this is my issue:
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
A fair issue for debate, but it goes WAY beyond Pfizer, its vaccine and the recent stock sales.
nm
Moderna 95% effective....
We now have at least two vaccines!
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 16, 2020, 06:06:51 AM
Moderna 95% effective....
We now have at least two vaccines!
Reading the science behind these is fascinating. The capabilities of humanity is amazing. I don't think we can celebrate the work these people are putting in enough
Are they able to be used in conjunction with another like how Pfizer's needs a 2nd dose, could you instead get moderna's? It'd help scaling it up in a huge way
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 16, 2020, 07:58:54 AM
Are they able to be used in conjunction with another like how Pfizer's needs a 2nd dose, could you instead get moderna's? It'd help scaling it up in a huge way
Looking for the Long Island Tea approach to vaccine management?
Fantastic news on the Moderna vaccine!
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 16, 2020, 07:58:54 AM
Are they able to be used in conjunction with another like how Pfizer's needs a 2nd dose, could you instead get moderna's? It'd help scaling it up in a huge way
I don't think you'd use them together, but you could market both and people/docs could choose. Or maybe they'll restrict Moderna's initially to frontline workers and high risk patients, and Pfizer's to everyone else. Either way, BOTH are more effective than most have expected.
Moderna doesn't have the extreme requirements for storage and transport. That will probably make it the vaccine of choice in the long run. Each require two shots. And we don't know how long they last.
Still, progress.
Moderna is partnered with someone, iirc? They have never released a commercially viable product before...
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 16, 2020, 06:06:51 AM
Moderna 95% effective....
We now have at least two vaccines!
One point of clarity. These effectiveness claims are what they can currently claim based on existing data. The Moderna claim is based 95 total infections (90 in placebo; 5 in vaccine). Since both groups contained the same total number of patients (15,000), you can simplify the math to: (90-5)/90=94.4% efficacy.
Based on the numbers, I bet Moderna was close to being able to make their announcement around when Pfizer did, but Pfizer beat them to it, so they targeted the 95% effectiveness claim and needed to wait until a few more cases in the control group emerged.
Also, in both cases I wouldn't be surprised if the actual efficacy is higher. Without seeing all the data, some of the 5 infections in the vaccine group may have been before full immunity was achieved.
The good news is this means we have 2 highly effective vaccines. The bad news is by the end of the year, they think they will only have enough doses to vaccinate 35 million people combined, and not all of those will go to the US.
We really have to thank decisions made during the Bush (and accelerated under Obama) for these breakthroughs. Bush recognized a need to develop new and improved technology for vaccines and funded DARPA to do it. These results emerged from those initiatives. Incidentally, because of the first SARS outbreak at a similar time as the initial rounds of funding, we also benefitted from prior experience on a very closely related disease with this technology.
Both administrations created pandemic plans.
Quote from: forgetful on November 16, 2020, 09:27:09 AM
We really have to thank decisions made during the Bush (and accelerated under Obama) for these breakthroughs. Bush recognized a need to develop new and improved technology for vaccines and funded DARPA to do it. These results emerged from those initiatives. Incidentally, because of the first SARS outbreak at a similar time as the initial rounds of funding, we also benefitted from prior experience on a very closely related disease with this technology.
We all stand on the shoulders of Giants.
Really glad to see the upcoming administration and the current bureaucrats changing the messaging on what we need to do. Targeted interventions, light at the end of the tunnel, short-term sacrifice for a big payoff of normalcy. I hope others jump on board.
By the way its great to see France checking their resurgence. It shows that the targeted intervention method works. It is broadly the same as what MI implemented....
Also, big Kudos to CEPI and the Gates foundation for pioneering and funding work on these vaccines within 2-days of China announcing the sequence.
I think they are not getting credit for their contributions, because of the backlash and conspiracy theories revolving around Gates.
Note: Not surprising that a certain individual is claiming credit for what these groups led, funded, and pioneered.
Quote from: forgetful on November 16, 2020, 10:23:21 AM
Also, big Kudos to CEPI and the Gates foundation for pioneering and funding work on these vaccines within 2-days of China announcing the sequence.
I think they are not getting credit for their contributions, because of the backlash and conspiracy theories revolving around Gates.
Note: Not surprising that a certain individual is claiming credit for what these groups led, funded, and pioneered.
Gates Foundation was vital to not just this effort, but to health initiatives - especially for women - around the world.
Melinda is very smart women who has made a difference in many countries. When she was asked a couple months ago to give a grade to trump's actions on Covid, she gave him a D-. I think she was trying to be nice.
Quote from: pbiflyer on November 10, 2020, 01:26:59 PM
As long as I get to go to first round NCAAs this year. Vaccine March 1st, on a plane March 17th, hanging with 20k other vaccinated folks March 18th/20th.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2020, 01:36:38 PM
I've got some bridges (and vials of vaccines) to sell you :)
I blame you Rocky: ;D
NCAA planning to host the entire men's March Madness in Indianapolis
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/16/us/ncaa-march-madness-indianapolis-trnd-spt/index.html
Quote from: pbiflyer on November 16, 2020, 04:55:05 PM
I blame you Rocky: ;D
Unlike some, I accept full blame! But I still have some bridges left if you're in need :)
Late to the game but signed up for J&J's vaccine trials at U of Chicago.
Hope I get selected
With the first vaccine rollouts about a month away, who thinks the distribution will be even remotely equitable?
Or will rollouts to non-medical workers largely based on access and financial well being.
I have a feeling there will be a lot of wealthy people with bone-spurs qualifying as "high-risk".
Quote from: forgetful on November 17, 2020, 09:17:25 AM
With the first vaccine rollouts about a month away, who thinks the distribution will be even remotely equitable?
Or will rollouts to non-medical workers largely based on access and financial well being.
I have a feeling there will be a lot of wealthy people with bone-spurs qualifying as "high-risk".
Absolutely.
Ever seen the movie Elysium? That's where we're headed.
Quote from: forgetful on November 17, 2020, 09:17:25 AM
With the first vaccine rollouts about a month away, who thinks the distribution will be even remotely equitable?
Or will rollouts to non-medical workers largely based on access and financial well being.
I have a feeling there will be a lot of wealthy people with bone-spurs qualifying as "high-risk".
You mean the same ones that get to go on vacation all over the world on private jets?
I'm truly shocked.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 17, 2020, 10:28:34 AM
You mean the same ones that get to go on vacation all over the world on private jets?
I'm truly shocked.
Places like Maui?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 17, 2020, 10:45:22 AM
I don't get this reference.
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605)
Thee, not me.
Well, that is dumb.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on November 17, 2020, 10:52:56 AM
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605)
Thee, not me.
That's bad optics and uncool, really owe the public an apology. See what we did there? Now you try it with all the stupid stuff your guys have done :)
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on November 17, 2020, 10:52:56 AM
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/11/16/california-lawmakers-head-to-maui-with-lobbyists-despite-pandemic-travel-warnings-1336605)
Thee, not me.
Reprehensible behavior, and a terrible headline. It was lawmakers from four states, including Texas and Washington. Very misleading to make this appear like it was California only.
Quote from: forgetful on November 17, 2020, 11:06:55 AM
Reprehensible behavior, and a terrible headline. It was lawmakers from four states, including Texas and Washington. Very misleading to make this appear like it was California only.
Direct your concerns to politico then.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 17, 2020, 10:59:36 AM
That's bad optics and uncool, really owe the public an apology. See what we did there? Now you try it with all the stupid stuff your guys have done :)
Both sides, aina.
What a dumb thing to do. Dumb for the group organizing it, and dumb for the people who went.
The news keeps getting better. There is a new study that points to long term immunity potential. Would be great news both for those who already had the disease but could also be good news for vaccination (don't need annual shot). Let's hope the study holds up and plays out in practice.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html)
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1328764862487351296?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1328764862487351296?s=21)
It would be nice to not get this again for a few years.
But instead of an annual vaccine, a la a flu shot, get a 5 year booster, similar to a tetanus shot.
What's tower always say? Always be science-ing.
Good news in the mid-term future if this pans out.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on November 17, 2020, 03:46:54 PM
What's tower always say? Always be science-ing.
Good news in the mid-term future if this pans out.
#keepsciencing
Looks like we have Miss Dolly Parton to thank (at least partially) for the Moderna vaccine:
https://slate.com/culture/2020/11/dolly-parton-coronavirus-vaccine-podcast-explained.html
Quote from: warriorchick on November 18, 2020, 12:07:26 AM
Looks like we have Miss Dolly Parton to thank (at least partially) for the Moderna vaccine:
https://slate.com/culture/2020/11/dolly-parton-coronavirus-vaccine-podcast-explained.html
I saw a funny line yesterday that called for her next act to record a PSA for Vaccine to the tune of Jolene
More good news from Pfizer ...
Pfizer releases the final results of its Covid-19 vaccine trial. The drugmaker said today that its treatment was 95 percent effective and had no serious side effects, two weeks after its initial findings propelled hopes about coronavirus vaccines. Pfizer said it planned to apply for F.D.A. emergency authorization "within days," and could have enough doses for 25 million people available by year end.
Quote from: MU82 on November 18, 2020, 07:25:31 AM
More good news from Pfizer ...
Pfizer releases the final results of its Covid-19 vaccine trial. The drugmaker said today that its treatment was 95 percent effective and had no serious side effects, two weeks after its initial findings propelled hopes about coronavirus vaccines. Pfizer said it planned to apply for F.D.A. emergency authorization "within days," and could have enough doses for 25 million people available by year end.
Applying for the EUA is great news. And based on what is available on the safety side, it will absolutely be granted.
Now the rollout and ramping up production.
...technically I could craft my own vaccine based on the Pfizer data.
Quote from: forgetful on November 18, 2020, 09:25:10 AM
Applying for the EUA is great news. And based on what is available on the safety side, it will absolutely be granted.
Now the rollout and ramping up production.
...technically I could craft my own vaccine based on the Pfizer data.
Agreed - this is great news.
But the transition from producing
thousands of doses for clinical trials, to
hundreds of millions of doses for widespread public use is a challenge in the best of circumstances. Therefore the goal of vaccinating 22.5 to 25 million by the end of the year, or even the end of January, is a best-case scenario. And CDC estimates there are currently about 18 million healthcare workers in the US. When you add first responders like firefighters, police and such, it will probably take until February or March before they even get to the next high-risk groups like the elderly and seriously ill.
The rest of us can hope for vaccinations by maybe May or June if things go well.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2020, 09:47:05 AM
Agreed - this is great news.
But the transition from producing thousands of doses for clinical trials, to hundreds of millions of doses for widespread public use is a challenge in the best of circumstances. Therefore the goal of vaccinating 22.5 to 25 million by the end of the year, or even the end of January, is a best-case scenario. And CDC estimates there are currently about 18 million healthcare workers in the US. When you add first responders like firefighters, police and such, it will probably take until February or March before they even get to the next high-risk groups like the elderly and seriously ill.
The rest of us can hope for vaccinations by maybe May or June if things go well.
In my state educators are considered front-line workers so we are on the same tier as medical workers. Not sure that I agree with that assessment, but it could mean that I am closer to the early rounds of dosing. Really all depends on which organizations though apply as "providers" and how the states approve each provider.
And although I could technically make my own. I wouldn't trust injecting it into an enemy. Too many variables and too much potential risk (although there are people out there already vaccinating themselves).
From NYT:
Dr. Anthony Fauci said that at least 75 percent of society would need to take the Covid-19 vaccine, even if it had 95 percent efficacy, before it was safe to stop wearing masks and social distancing. That's a very high threshold considering how polarized things are in the U.S. over basic steps like masking, let alone getting a shot (perhaps twice). So returning to normality could take longer than imagined, which will matter for business plans and government policies.
There was a good WSJ podcast episode with Biden's coronavirus task force lead. She harped on the fact that the vaccine may prevent you from getting symptoms, but you could still spread the disease. They still don't have their hands wrapped around how many asymptomatic spreaders there are.
This was an interesting read ..
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/19/self-interest-nudged-me-to-join-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-trial/
TLDR: Signed up for the study. Got a shot, half chance it was a placebo but felt like he had a mild flu the next morning, knew it was real.
Month later, 2nd shot. Doc told him the reaction to shot#2 is stronger. Hours after shot, every muscle hurt, temp spiked to 99.9, felt like real flu. Resolved 24 hours later.
In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 19, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
This was an interesting read ..
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/19/self-interest-nudged-me-to-join-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-trial/
TLDR: Signed up for the study. Got a shot, half chance it was a placebo but felt like he had a mild flu the next morning, new it was real.
Month later, 2nd shot. Doc told him the reaction to shot#2 is stronger. Hours after shot, every muscle hurt, temp spiked to 99.9, felt like real flu. Resolved 24 hours later.
In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.
Basically, everyone that gets the second shot will have a sick day the day after. Or they get their shots on Fridays and Saturdays.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 19, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.
Let me tell you about my last 12 days...
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 19, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
This was an interesting read ..
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/19/self-interest-nudged-me-to-join-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-trial/
TLDR: Signed up for the study. Got a shot, half chance it was a placebo but felt like he had a mild flu the next morning, knew it was real.
Month later, 2nd shot. Doc told him the reaction to shot#2 is stronger. Hours after shot, every muscle hurt, temp spiked to 99.9, felt like real flu. Resolved 24 hours later.
In conclusion .. if this story is consistent .. the two shots are not gonna be particularly fun.
Unfortunate...but it beats the he!! out of getting Covid.
FWIW, the prevalence and severity of adverse reactions
seems to be lower with the Pfizer vaccine. If this holds true, I'm gonna fight too get that one if I can...but I would still take the Moderna if it's the only one available to me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/18/health/pfizer-covid-vaccine.html
Pfizer and BioNTech said that the vaccine's efficacy was consistent across age, race and ethnicity. The most common serious adverse event was fatigue, with 3.7 percent of volunteers reporting tiredness after they took the second dose. Two percent of volunteers reported a headache after the second dose. Older adults reported fewer and milder side effects, the companies said.https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-covid-2020-11
The one serious side effect that occurred after the first dose was injection site pain, reported by 2.7% of participants. Here are the severe side effects that people in the trial reported after the second dose:
Fatigue in 9.7% of participants
Muscle aches in 8.9%
Joint aches in 5.2%
Headache in 4.5%
Pain at the injection site in 4.1%
Redness around the injection site in 2%
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2020, 06:13:05 AM
From NYT:
Dr. Anthony Fauci said that at least 75 percent of society would need to take the Covid-19 vaccine, even if it had 95 percent efficacy, before it was safe to stop wearing masks and social distancing. That's a very high threshold considering how polarized things are in the U.S. over basic steps like masking, let alone getting a shot (perhaps twice). So returning to normality could take longer than imagined, which will matter for business plans and government policies.
The ultimate irony: the people who complain most loudly about masks, business restrictions and vaccines will be the very ones to make masks and business restrictions necessary for a longer period oof time.
And they are completely oblivious to this reality.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 19, 2020, 09:54:33 AM
Unfortunate...but it beats the he!! out of getting Covid.
FWIW, the prevalence and severity of adverse reactions seems to be lower with the Pfizer vaccine. If this holds true, I'm gonna fight too get that one if I can...but I would still take the Moderna if it's the only one available to me.
I too would prefer the Pfizer vaccine.
And based on what I've seen friends who are in tremendous shape go through. I'd do just about anything to get a vaccine now, I'll gladly take one day of mild flu like symptoms. Heck, I'll take a weekend of flu-like symptoms.
I have a feeling preferences are not going to matter. Hopefully we have more choices by then too...I hear Oxford is close to reporting out.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 19, 2020, 10:15:45 AM
I have a feeling preferences are not going to matter. Hopefully we have more choices by then too...I hear Oxford is close to reporting out.
Every new one approved brings the timeline for everyone getting vaccinated and a return to normalcy that much closer.
If a vaccine were released that was say 70-80% effective would that still be put into production?
Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2020, 06:13:05 AM
From NYT:
Dr. Anthony Fauci said that at least 75 percent of society would need to take the Covid-19 vaccine, even if it had 95 percent efficacy, before it was safe to stop wearing masks and social distancing.
Did he explain that better?
I mean .. say my family gets the vaccine, two shots, and yeah, wait a month for it to reach full efficacy.
We could be exposed to the virus and our immune system would fight it with ~90% effectiveness. Pretty good odds we don't get sick, nor spread the virus further.
What would be the purpose for wearing masks after a full dose of the vaccine?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 19, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
Did he explain that better?
I mean .. say my family gets the vaccine, two shots, and yeah, wait a month for it to reach full efficacy.
We could be exposed to the virus and our immune system would fight it with ~90% effectiveness. Pretty good odds we don't get sick, nor spread the virus further.
What would be the purpose for wearing masks after a full dose of the vaccine?
I think the misunderstanding is that you still get sick when you have a vaccine, your body just knows how to fight off the infection. You can still be an asymptomatic spreader if you're vaccinated.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 19, 2020, 11:04:24 AM
I think the misunderstanding is that you still get sick when you have a vaccine, your body just knows how to fight off the infection. You can still be an asymptomatic spreader if you're vaccinated.
Isn't more that they don't know if you can be an asymptomatic spreader versus "you can...".
Hopefully they study this with the trial group and have a stronger POV by the time everyone is lining up for the vaccine.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 19, 2020, 11:50:40 AM
Isn't more that they don't know if you can be an asymptomatic spreader versus "you can...".
Hopefully they study this with the trial group and have a stronger POV by the time everyone is lining up for the vaccine.
You're right, the vaccine could be 100% effective. Unlikely but possible.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 19, 2020, 01:49:31 PM
You're right, the vaccine could be 100% effective. Unlikely but possible.
I see what you were implying. I was referring to people within the 90%. I've read that they don't know yet if they can spread.
I think we all agree that medical professionals and 1st responders should be the first to get the vaccine. But, then who is next?
Should we vaccinate the most vulnerable (elderly, those with pre-existing conditions, etc.) or might it be better to vaccinate those who are spreading the disease (18-30 years old) first?
I tend toward the vulnerable, but understand the other argument as well. I think the thing that seals the argument for me is that the vulnerable will be much, much easier to vaccinate.
Pretty sure those incarcerated at next in line, hey?
Educators next?
Elderly so they can enjoy time left on this mortal coil?
Anti maskers? Very last people in line.
If you have had it, do you give up your place in line? I know I am going to be offered the vaccine in the next 3 months. Will the vaccine double down on protection? Which will provide longer protection?
My instinct is to move back in the line.
Quote from: tower912 on November 21, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
If you have had it, do you give up your place in line? I know I am going to be offered the vaccine in the next 3 months. Will the vaccine double down on protection? Which will provide longer protection?
My instinct is to move back in the line.
I thought about this before, actually had a post related to it that I changed to nm.
I think in an ideal world, we would test everyone for antibodies before vaccination. If you have a prior positive test in the last 6-months, or antibodies indicating a previous infection, do not vaccinate now. Place priority on others. That way we can get to herd immunity faster.
The problem with this is two fold. 1) What about false positive tests in either prior infection, or antibodies. 2) We know people can be infected a 2nd time, and we do not know about the added benefit of the vaccine on top of prior infections. It may be prudent to vaccinate them again.
A third aspect. Has the vaccine's safety been tested in people with prior infections? I don't think issues would be likely, but I also don't think we can know for certain until it has been tested.
Educators should be next up after healthcare and emergency services.
My 40 year old self in good health ain't getting shizz until like July.
Quote from: tower912 on November 21, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
If you have had it, do you give up your place in line? I know I am going to be offered the vaccine in the next 3 months. Will the vaccine double down on protection? Which will provide longer protection?
My instinct is to move back in the line.
I have not gotten an antibody test because it likely would not have made a difference in my behavior.
I may have had it early on before testing was available.
You bring up a really good reason to pull the trigger on a test now though. Will look into it.
Quote from: Retire0 on November 21, 2020, 02:11:52 PM
Educators should be next up after healthcare and emergency services.
I think the first after healthcare and emergency services should be the less obvious 'essential' workers who
really are essential for our basic day-to-day survival, like grocery store clerks, food production and delivery personnel, people who maintain our utilities, etc.
Educators are critically important for society and should be in the next group, but they aren't as immediately necessary for our basic day-to-day survival as people who give us access to food, water, heat, etc.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 21, 2020, 02:36:17 PM
I think the first after healthcare and emergency services should be the less obvious 'essential' workers who really are essential for our basic day-to-day survival, like grocery store clerks, food production and delivery personnel, people who maintain our utilities, etc.
Educators are critically important for society and should be in the next group, but they aren't as immediately necessary for our basic day-to-day survival as people who give us access to food, water, heat, etc.
Nah. Education.
You can shop while distancing with masks and be safe.
Quote from: Retire0 on November 21, 2020, 03:26:50 PM
Nah. Education.
You can shop while distancing with masks and be safe.
How much spread has been in schools by teachers? My wife is an elementary teacher. There has been no psread that she knows of in school. All come from outside activities (dance teams going to tournaments and hanging out with several other teams inside for 6-8 hours).
Hopefully the research is being done to figure this out. Maybe it is teachers and our district is the exception.
Whatever it is it will be good to start getting people vaccinated and getting back to normal slowly
Quote from: Retire0 on November 21, 2020, 03:26:50 PM
Nah. Education.
You can shop while distancing with masks and be safe.
You can teach with masks and social distancing too. And you can also survive for a few months without in-person learning, but you can't without food and clean water.
I have HUGE respect for educators - my wife works in the local public school system - and I understand the critical
long-term importance of education. But if we are going to prioritize based on necessity, we should start with the functions we need
just to get by from day to day. Healthcare, emergency workers, food, clean water, electricity.
Quote from: injuryBug on November 21, 2020, 03:36:11 PM
How much spread has been in schools by teachers? My wife is an elementary teacher. There has been no psread that she knows of in school. All come from outside activities (dance teams going to tournaments and hanging out with several other teams inside for 6-8 hours).
Hopefully the research is being done to figure this out. Maybe it is teachers and our district is the exception.
Whatever it is it will be good to start getting people vaccinated and getting back to normal slowly
Here's a post from earlier this month in the K-12 thread.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on November 08, 2020, 06:16:43 PM
Studies are finally coming out that state the obvious: Schools reopening is dramatically increasing the R0 of coronavirus when analyzing the impact of 790 'phases' across 131 countries
> Reopening schools was associated with a 24-per-cent increase in R after 28 days, although the researchers cautioned they were unable to account for different precautions some countries implemented for reopening schools, such as limiting class sizes, social distancing, cleaning, personal hygiene, face masks, and temperature checks.
The article: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/coronavirus-r-rate-school-closures-lockdown-lancet-study-b1251617.html
The study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30785-4/fulltext
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 21, 2020, 02:36:17 PM
I think the first after healthcare and emergency services should be the less obvious 'essential' workers who really are essential for our basic day-to-day survival, like grocery store clerks, food production and delivery personnel, people who maintain our utilities, etc.
Educators are critically important for society and should be in the next group, but they aren't as immediately necessary for our basic day-to-day survival as people who give us access to food, water, heat, etc.
But those people are really just minimum wage workers, they should just be happy they have jobs.
Not to mention, what are their supervisors supposed to bet on if the COVID risk decreases?
...this doesn't actually need teal does it?
I can shop with a mask and distance and be reasonably safe. But the workers have to deal with the anti-maskers and those who won't distance for whatever reason, plus they are in the environment all day. You cannot compare shoppers with workers.
Quote from: forgetful on November 21, 2020, 04:34:28 PM
But those people are really just minimum wage workers, they should just be happy they have jobs.
Not to mention, what are their supervisors supposed to bet on if the COVID risk decreases?
...this doesn't actually need teal does it?
A great post (until you added the rider at the end). ;)
If people are unable to recognize snark and/or sarcasm, it's their problem - not yours.
A new Gallup poll shows Americans' willingness to get Covid vaccine is increasing...from 50% in September to 58% in late October. And this was before Pfizer and Moderna both showed high effectiveness and a low level of side effects.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/325208/americans-willing-covid-vaccine.aspx
There are probably lots of reasons for the increase, from the fall surge to the economic toll of the pandemic. For me though, it's largely two things: (1) the fact that the companies seem to be following a more realistic timeline than the ones hailed by the Administration a few months ago (respecting science over politics?); and (2) the fact that two companies making the same type of vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna use mRNA) showed very similar results.
It also helps that the rollout will be more gradual than the Administration predicted...meaning that average, relatively healthy middle aged guys like me probably won't have access until late spring or early summer. By then, researchers will know even more about possible long-term side effects, since it will be several months post-vaccination for the clinical trial participants.
Discussed with my 13 YO while hiking in the woods the philosophical and ethical issues of whether I should get the vaccine early or move to the back of the line. He immediately said that I should go to the end of the line. He rightly points out that in 6-8 months it will be like getting a booster.
Raising another smart one.
Fahrenheit, my ass is takin' dat vaccine da furst moment itz available ta mee, hey?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 22, 2020, 03:19:15 PM
A new Gallup poll shows Americans' willingness to get Covid vaccine is increasing...from 50% in September to 58% in late October. And this was before Pfizer and Moderna both showed high effectiveness and a low level of side effects.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/325208/americans-willing-covid-vaccine.aspx
There are probably lots of reasons for the increase, from the fall surge to the economic toll of the pandemic. For me though, it's largely two things: (1) the fact that the companies seem to be following a more realistic timeline than the ones hailed by the Administration a few months ago (respecting science over politics?); and (2) the fact that two companies making the same type of vaccine (both Pfizer and Moderna use mRNA) showed very similar results.
It also helps that the rollout will be more gradual than the Administration predicted...meaning that average, relatively healthy middle aged guys like me probably won't have access until late spring or early summer. By then, researchers will know even more about possible long-term side effects, since it will be several months post-vaccination for the clinical trial participants.
This is good news. Thanks for posting.
Quote from: tower912 on November 22, 2020, 04:00:43 PM
Discussed with my 13 YO while hiking in the woods the philosophical and ethical issues of whether I should get the vaccine early or move to the back of the line. He immediately said that I should go to the end of the line. He rightly points out that in 6-8 months it will be like getting a booster.
Raising another smart one.
If it were me, I would consult someone who is an expert in the field versus banking on an immune response assumption. I don't think this is as clear-cut as you would like to believe to only bucket it as an ethical question versus one of safety for front for a frontline worker.
You are saying you don't trust the antibodies developed through the virus. Is it the strength or the duration that concerns you?
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2020, 08:38:46 AM
You are saying you don't trust the antibodies developed through the virus. Is it the strength or the duration that concerns you?
I've read that there is some predictability & strength benefits of a vaccine versus natural infection. I am not a medical professional and don't know enough to make a recommendation. I've just seen enough discussion about the topic by experts that would make me do more homework before declining.
Edit: by the way, you will probably have a good set of role models soon. If ER docs who have had infection start posting that they got the vaccine (or for that matter are forgoing), that should be a good signal of which way you should go.
Interesting that Astra Zeneca is feeling pressure by Pfizer/Moderna to show 90% efficacy results (could happen with 2 shots). 70% is still pretty good with one shot.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-oxford-astra-zeneca-vaccine-shows-over-70-efficacy-080349205.html
edit: incorrect information
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 23, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
Interesting that Astra Zeneca is feeling pressure by Pfizer/Moderna to show 90% efficacy results (could happen with 2 shots). 70% is still pretty good with one shot.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-oxford-astra-zeneca-vaccine-shows-over-70-efficacy-080349205.html
My understanding is that both efficacy numbers are two shots. It's just that the higher efficacy was half dose then full and the lower efficacy was full dose & full dose.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 23, 2020, 12:47:03 PM
My understanding is that both efficacy numbers are two shots. It's just that the higher efficacy was half dose then full and the lower efficacy was full dose & full dose.
Thanks for the correction. 70% was the average of the two dosing schemes
https://apnews.com/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-third-cheaper-oxford-c99d26eb2946f6fde45a1edc002ff028
QuoteThe AstraZeneca trial looked at two different dosing regimens. A half-dose of the vaccine followed by a full dose at least one month later was 90% effective. Another approach, giving patients two full doses one month apart, was 62% effective.
That means that, overall, when both ways of dosing are considered, the vaccine showed an efficacy rate of 70%.
Seems like one of those dosing methods should not be used :)
Also, pricing is nice:
QuoteAstraZeneca, which has pledged it won't make a profit on the vaccine during the pandemic, has reached agreements with governments and international health organizations that put its cost at about $2.50 a dose. Pfizer's vaccine costs about $20, while Moderna's is $15 to $25, based on agreements the companies have struck to supply their vaccines to the U.S. government.
I'm guessing the less extreme temperature requirements and price will make AZ the vaccine of choice in less developed countries.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 23, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
Interesting that Astra Zeneca is feeling pressure by Pfizer/Moderna to show 90% efficacy results (could happen with 2 shots). 70% is still pretty good with one shot.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-oxford-astra-zeneca-vaccine-shows-over-70-efficacy-080349205.html
edit: incorrect information
I'm interested in seeing some of the finer grain detail in how these calculations have been made. Particularly as it relates to identifying and defining "positive cases."
AZ has suggested that their lower efficacy is in part based on more stringent definition of positive cases than Pfizer and Moderna used. Without seeing full reports, I can't evaluate the validity of that claim, or how one can define a positive case differently.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 23, 2020, 12:47:03 PM
My understanding is that both efficacy numbers are two shots. It's just that the higher efficacy was half dose then full and the lower efficacy was full dose & full dose.
Can you sciencey type folks explain why a half dose/full dose regimen is more effective than a full dose/full dose regimen? Just curious.
Quote from: TSmith34 on November 23, 2020, 09:11:20 PM
Can you sciencey type folks explain why a half dose/full dose regimen is more effective than a full dose/full dose regimen? Just curious.
Honestly, not relly. And I'm not sure they can explain it either. The best anyone can really do on that is make a couple educated guesses.
My best guess would be something along the first lower dose priming the whole system for a more robust and highly-specific response upon the second full dose.
In the other dosing regime, the first full dose may elicit a more full immune response, that is simply re-initiated upon the second dose.
But that is merely a guess.
Quote from: TSmith34 on November 23, 2020, 09:11:20 PM
Can you sciencey type folks explain why a half dose/full dose regimen is more effective than a full dose/full dose regimen? Just curious.
It's a really odd situation, which I found very surprising.
The article below suggests that it might just be a statistical anomaly, based on the fact that only a small number of participants got the half-dose regimen. And if it isn't an anomaly, the article suggests two possible mechanisms that could explain the result.
Bottom line: lots of immunologists and biostatisticians are scratching their heads right now.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03326-w
She has two leading theories for why a lower first dose might have led to better protection against COVID. It's possible that lower doses of vaccine do a better job at stimulating the subset of immune cells called T cells that support the production of antibodies, she says.
Another potential explanation is the immune system's response against the chimpanzee virus. The vaccine triggers an immune response not only to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, but also to components of the viral vector. It's possible that the full first dose blunted this reaction, says Ewer. She plans to look at antibody responses against the chimpanzee virus to help address this question.
It was also an accident. No one was supposed to receive a half dose.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 24, 2020, 05:34:49 AM
It was also an accident. No one was supposed to receive a half dose.
Yeah - I first heard that late last night.
It shows how sometimes we might stumble into some of the best answers by chance. The first pacemaker was the result of a guy who accidentally put the wrong transistor into a heart rhythm recording device he was building....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 23, 2020, 10:40:03 PM
It's a really odd situation, which I found very surprising.
The article below suggests that it might just be a statistical anomaly, based on the fact that only a small number of participants got the half-dose regimen. And if it isn't an anomaly, the article suggests two possible mechanisms that could explain the result.
Bottom line: lots of immunologists and biostatisticians are scratching their heads right now.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03326-w
She has two leading theories for why a lower first dose might have led to better protection against COVID. It's possible that lower doses of vaccine do a better job at stimulating the subset of immune cells called T cells that support the production of antibodies, she says.
Another potential explanation is the immune system's response against the chimpanzee virus. The vaccine triggers an immune response not only to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, but also to components of the viral vector. It's possible that the full first dose blunted this reaction, says Ewer. She plans to look at antibody responses against the chimpanzee virus to help address this question.
The statistical anomaly is likely the best explanation. Otherwise it is pretty much guesswork.
I think .. this is relatively impressive.
All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing. $25 .. and results in 15 minutes.
https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2020, 09:34:40 AM
I think .. this is relatively impressive.
All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing. $25 .. and results in 15 minutes.
https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody
Most insurances will cover it for free. 15 min is impressive, though.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2020, 09:34:40 AM
I think .. this is relatively impressive.
All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing. $25 .. and results in 15 minutes.
https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody
Wow really? If that gets picked up around the other associated stores they own (marianos) it could be a big tool in getting the world back to normal in the Midwest and having a vaccine roll out that focuses on people without antibodies first.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2020, 09:34:40 AM
I think .. this is relatively impressive.
All Pick n Save / Metro Market pharmacy locations are offering COVID anti-body testing. $25 .. and results in 15 minutes.
https://www.picknsave.com/rx/guest/antibody
FWIW, this is the test I mentioned in the Close to Home thread that returned that my GF was still "COVID positive". It's very good for the antibodies, but in terms of antigen, take with a grain of salt and don't expect questions to be readily answered by the technician
I went and got a rapid test at UWM yesterday and it couldn't have been easier. The only thing is the waiting... the seating is spaced, but you're still in a ballroom with a bunch of people. Thankfully it was nice enough to go outside on the balcony.
Quote from: MUfan12 on November 24, 2020, 12:03:29 PM
I went and got a rapid test at UWM yesterday and it couldn't have been easier. The only thing is the waiting... the seating is spaced, but you're still in a ballroom with a bunch of people. Thankfully it was nice enough to go outside on the balcony.
I went there as well, and saw zero reason to wait. The results are emailed. What's the point of waiting in that (admittedly large) ballroom for results, when the result is emailed? All it took for me to walk straight out, down the steps and out the door was a young gal hacking into her mask. But it was a very easy and efficient process.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on November 24, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
I went there as well, and saw zero reason to wait. The results are emailed. What's the point of waiting in that (admittedly large) ballroom for results, when the result is emailed? All it took for me to walk straight out, down the steps and out the door was a young gal hacking into her mask. But it was a very easy and efficient process.
It's the lack of accuracy. If you're there, they would then administer a PCR test if you test positive, or are symptomatic and test negative.
Quote from: MUfan12 on November 24, 2020, 08:09:27 PM
It's the lack of accuracy. If you're there, they would then administer a PCR test if you test positive, or are symptomatic and test negative.
Ah. Makes sense. Thx.
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on November 05, 2020, 02:21:02 PM
Damn those cute little mink!
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Denmark-finds-covid-strain-that-might-hamper-15701598.php
They might still get the last laugh: "Culled mink rise from the dead to Denmark's horror"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/25/culled-mink-rise-from-the-dead-denmark-coronavirus
Looks like the AstraZeneca vaccine might be a little further off than we realized, due to the dosing mistake discussed earlier, but also some spotty disclosure practices and other 'irregularities' discovered by regulators.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/business/coronavirus-vaccine-astrazeneca-oxford.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
But since unveiling the preliminary results, AstraZeneca has acknowledged a key mistake in the vaccine dosage received by some study participants, adding to questions about whether the vaccine's apparently spectacular efficacy will hold up under additional testing.
Scientists and industry experts said the error and a series of other irregularities and omissions in the way AstraZeneca initially disclosed the data have eroded their confidence in the reliability of the results.
Officials in the United States have noted that the results were not clear. The head of the flagship federal vaccine initiative suggested that the vaccine's most promising results may not have reflected data from older people.
The upshot, the experts said, is that the odds of regulators in the United States and elsewhere quickly authorizing the emergency use of the AstraZeneca vaccine are declining, an unexpected setback in the global campaign to corral the devastating pandemic.
--------------
Good thing the Pfizer/Biontech and Moderna vaccines seem to be very close....
Some pretty strong side effects from vaccine.
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/11/doctors-urge-cdc-admit-side-effects
Quote from: Jockey on November 26, 2020, 02:36:58 PM
Some pretty strong side effects from vaccine.
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/11/doctors-urge-cdc-admit-side-effects
They absolutely need to be upfront and honest about the side effects. Some people may choose they don't want to vaccinate, but at least they were honest, and gave the person a choice.
If they aren't honest, word will get out about the severity of side effects, and a lot of people will feel like they were lied to and risks were hidden. Feeling like you were lied to will fuel conspiracy theories, and could lead to A LOT of people forgoing a vaccine.
Quote from: forgetful on November 26, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
They absolutely need to be upfront and honest about the side effects. Some people may choose they don't want to vaccinate, but at least they were honest, and gave the person a choice.
If they aren't honest, word will get out about the severity of side effects, and a lot of people will feel like they were lied to and risks were hidden. Feeling like you were lied to will fuel conspiracy theories, and could lead to A LOT of people forgoing a vaccine.
Exactly. Well said.
Quote from: forgetful on November 26, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
They absolutely need to be upfront and honest about the side effects. Some people may choose they don't want to vaccinate, but at least they were honest, and gave the person a choice.
If they aren't honest, word will get out about the severity of side effects, and a lot of people will feel like they were lied to and risks were hidden. Feeling like you were lied to will fuel conspiracy theories, and could lead to A LOT of people forgoing a vaccine.
Honesty and transparency with mucho dinero on the line?? Ya. Right.
Quote from: Jockey on November 26, 2020, 02:36:58 PM
Some pretty strong side effects from vaccine.
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/11/doctors-urge-cdc-admit-side-effects
The press releases from the companies certainly did not make the side effects sound that distressing. I can't ever remember feeling bad enough to take a day off work after a vaccination. Granted, it sounds far less troublesome than Covid does, but people need to hear what they should expect.
If it really is that bad and they don't do a better job of publicizing it, I fear two consequences: (1) people will not come back for their second dose, as indicated in the article; and (2) people who are further down the queue might not even come in for their first dose. Obviously, both of those things would be problematic.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 26, 2020, 04:02:50 PM
The press releases from the companies certainly did not make the side effects sound that distressing. I can't ever remember feeling bad enough to take a day off work after a vaccination. Granted, it sounds far less troublesome than Covid does, but people need to hear what they should expect.
If it really is that bad and they don't do a better job of publicizing it, I fear two consequences: (1) people will not come back for their second dose, as indicated in the article; and (2) people who are further down the queue might not even come in for their first dose. Obviously, both of those things would be problematic.
I think there will be a lot more trust in the future when the government talks about Covid and the vaccine.
The 260K dead Americans ... the hundreds of thousands of permanently closed businesses ... the millions upon millions of unemployed ... the emperor doesn't care about any of those.
Here is what he cares about:
"Don't let Joe Biden take credit for the vaccine. Don't let him take credit for the vaccines, because the vaccines were me."
Fact doe, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on November 26, 2020, 09:37:11 PM
The 260K dead Americans ... the hundreds of thousands of permanently closed businesses ... the millions upon millions of unemployed ... the emperor doesn't care about any of those.
Here is what he cares about:
"Don't let Joe Biden take credit for the vaccine. Don't let him take credit for the vaccines, because the vaccines were me."
Give Diaper Don a break. Did you see that desk? Tiny hands, tiny desk
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 27, 2020, 05:07:21 AM
Fact doe, hey?
Sure. As long as your emperor takes "credit" for all the deaths, lost jobs and closed businesses, too.
Hey.
If he wants credit for something he didn't actively lead, ok. Thanks for doing the bare minimum and staying out of the way of the scientists. Should have listened to more of them.
Obviously, Obama gets 100% of the credit for the stock market continuing to rise these last 4 years ... even if it didn't rise quite as high, percentage-wise, as it did during his 8 years in office.
"Don't let Don Trump take credit for the stock market. Don't let him take credit for the stock market, because the stock market was me."
I'm really worried about the vaccine roll-out. The logistics for who to prioritize, and how to deliver the vaccine to those groups has been left up to the States, and it is a monumental task. As of right now, sufficient funds to do this hasn't been provided to them, nor has suitable resources to implement and execute a vaccination process as difficult as this will be.
With limited vaccines, and such a dire situation, this needs to have all the leg work and planning already done, with supplies, and a delivery apparatus at the local level already established and waiting. I fear we are far from that, particularly in rural, and poor areas hard hit by this virus.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 27, 2020, 05:56:06 AM
Give Diaper Don a break. Did you see that desk? Tiny hands, tiny desk
I'm guessing he will be on NPR for one of their Tiny Desk concerts soon. Don't know if he will be able to wrap those tiny fingers all of the way around the guitar neck, though.
Ahem...the past few posts have not been productive...
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 27, 2020, 01:09:21 PM
Ahem...the past few posts have not been productive...
Scoop is supposed to be productive?
Who knew?
Quote from: Jockey on November 27, 2020, 01:41:21 PM
Scoop is supposed to be productive?
Who knew?
(https://media.tenor.com/images/9ec1b10a43e9bae7b277527a1006f468/tenor.gif)
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2020, 08:38:46 AM
You are saying you don't trust the antibodies developed through the virus. Is it the strength or the duration that concerns you?
Tower I saw this today and thought it could be helpful for you.
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1333445089243373569?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1333445089243373569?s=21)
Is it crazy to think there may not be full capacity crowds allowed next season? Alot of people arent getting the vaccine no matter what.
It's nuts to look at this timeline and see the moderna vaccine was designed in mid-Jan with the NIH and in testing already in March. Just unbelievable to think of the speed with this new technology.
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 30, 2020, 11:19:23 AM
It's nuts to look at this timeline and see the moderna vaccine was designed in mid-Jan with the NIH and in testing already in March. Just unbelievable to think of the speed with this new technology.
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21)
Agreed. Part of the credit goes to the Trump Administration for implementing OWS (the one truly beneficial thing he has done during the pandemic), but we are also fortunate that companies have developed mRNA technology, which allows for more rapid development of vaccines without the inherent risks of actually injecting live or attenuated viruses into people.
#keepsciencing
Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 30, 2020, 01:46:23 PM
Agreed. Part of the credit goes to the Trump Administration for implementing OWS (the one truly beneficial thing he has done during the pandemic), but we are also fortunate that companies have developed mRNA technology, which allows for more rapid development of vaccines without the inherent risks of actually injecting live or attenuated viruses into people.
#keepsciencing
1 downside to the new technology is the unknown long-term risk
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 30, 2020, 02:11:22 PM
1 downside to the new technology is the unknown long-term risk
Agreed. In theory, there are reasons to believe long-term effects will be less common and severe than with viral vaccines, but in practice we never know for sure until it is tried.
Fortunately, by the time most of us get access to the vaccine (likely May or June if you are <65 and otherwise relatively healthy), it will have been nearly a year since participants got the vaccine in the Phase 2 studies. While that doesn't eliminate the possibility that there could be side effects that take many months or years to develop, it still tells us about the vast majority of likely side effects.
Not perfect, but still pretty good in the midst of a pandemic....
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 30, 2020, 11:19:23 AM
It's nuts to look at this timeline and see the moderna vaccine was designed in mid-Jan with the NIH and in testing already in March. Just unbelievable to think of the speed with this new technology.
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1332771238771630080?s=21)
There is a lot more to this than just the timeline reported here.
What is key is that back under Bush, he recognized the need to prepare for a pandemic, particularly in technology for rapid vaccine development, which he funded. That led to some of the first uses of new vaccine technology in 2003 for SARS. At that time, they were able to go from sequence information to a testable vaccine in 20-months (technology very crude still). By that time, the SARS virus was gone. But those vaccines have been tested and optimized in animal studies for the past 17 years.
Obama took Bush's mantle and expanded investment in new vaccine technology, particularly pushing forward mRNA based approaches which were proving successful in animal studies, and had the capacity to be rolled out in extremely fast timescales ($25M investment to drive Moderna's research into mRNA technology). That investment is what built the infrastructure that the current vaccines are built off of.
You also have massive investments by the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) (really emerged from Bush's focus on protecting the US from Pandemic's and Biowarfare), focusing on this technology.
So technically we went from recognizing this to a vaccine in roughly 12-months, but the ground work, technology development, testing and optimization against SARS has been going on for 17-years. In January, everything was already in place and ready to get this done, all that really needed to be done was get the DNA sequence, and get out of the way of science.
Side note. The importance of a president who likes to read. Much of this was spurred by George Bush reading an advanced copy of "The Great Influenza" by John M. Barry during a vacation, and then him reading more on vaccine technology and how out of date it was. In some regards, having a president who loved to read is now saving lives.
forgetful - you are right that Bush, Obama and many diligent scientists deserve the lion's share of credit for getting it to the point where Moderna, Pfizer/Biontech and others can even dream of an mRNA vaccine.
Kudos to those who laid the groundwork for making this even remotely possible.
Hopefully that will not get lost in a diatribe started by by one man trying to take credit for the entire thing.
Very interesting background explanation, thank you.
I read that book too. Plus American Experience did an episode on it some years ago.
In a Massachusetts poll this week, 38 percent of respondents said they were unlikely or very unlikely to get a vaccine.
A Gallup poll last month showed 42 percent of Americans were unwilling to take a COVID-19 vaccine, even if it were FDA-approved and free.
Other polls have showed similar reluctance nationally and at the state level, although the numbers have improved since news of successful vaccine trials broke in the past month.
Quote from: MU82 on December 03, 2020, 07:44:37 AM
In a Massachusetts poll this week, 38 percent of respondents said they were unlikely or very unlikely to get a vaccine.
A Gallup poll last month showed 42 percent of Americans were unwilling to take a COVID-19 vaccine, even if it were FDA-approved and free.
Other polls have showed similar reluctance nationally and at the state level, although the numbers have improved since news of successful vaccine trials broke in the past month.
People say one thing and will do another when they get a taste of normality.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 08:10:47 AM
People say one thing and will do another when they get a taste of normality.
Here's hoping. Also encouraging that the numbers who say no have been decreasing.
I had a routine doctor's appointment yesterday.
My doctor said they would offer COVID vaccines for the general public starting April because he said they're a part of Yale Health System and Yale Health will be receiving vaccines. He said he expects the vaccines will be available sooner to the public because "there are too many stupid people who won't take the vaccine, so there will be vaccines available to the public sooner."
He also said he preferred the Moderna vaccine based on the temperature storage issue.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 03, 2020, 08:21:12 AM
I had a routine doctor's appointment yesterday.
My doctor said they would offer COVID vaccines for the general public starting April because he said they're a part of Yale Health System and Yale Health will be receiving vaccines. He said he expects the vaccines will be available sooner to the public because "there are too many stupid people who won't take the vaccine, so there will be vaccines available to the public sooner."
He also said he preferred the Moderna vaccine based on the temperature storage issue.
Personally, I will take whichever I can get first. Having said that, Moderna is not my favorite company.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 08:44:40 AM
Personally, I will take whichever I can get first. Having said that, Moderna is not my favorite company.
Moderna: Because Moderna has never brought a product to market before? Or that it's based on mRNA technology and the first ever mRNA therapy was approved in 2019?
I'm not that confident that production + logistics is going to go as smoothly as people are expecting.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 03, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Moderna: Because Moderna has never brought a product to market before? Or that it's based on mRNA technology and the first ever mRNA therapy was approved in 2019?
I'm not that confident that production + logistics is going to go as smoothly as people are expecting.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e58fdf168818bf78e6cabaab04503b3b/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 08:44:40 AM
Personally, I will take whichever I can get first. Having said that, Moderna is not my favorite company.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 03, 2020, 09:10:30 AM
Moderna: Because Moderna has never brought a product to market before? Or that it's based on mRNA technology and the first ever mRNA therapy was approved in 2019?
I'm not that confident that production + logistics is going to go as smoothly as people are expecting.
I used to also not be a big fan of Moderna. Seemed sketchy, and had concerns about the fact that they have never brought a product to market. Having talked to colleagues, in the know, I have much more faith in them in terms of the vaccine. Would be very happy to get it.
But, I have concerns about production and logistics too. Could limit the availability of the Moderna vaccine.
Overall though, I have major concerns regarding the vaccine roll-outs. States still haven't been provided the finances and resources to be able to execute any plans.
Once we all start getting vacines, are we still gonna have to wear masks? Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask. Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?
Part sarcasm but part serious question.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on December 03, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Once we all start getting vacines, are we still gonna have to wear masks? Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask. Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?
Part sarcasm but part serious question.
Someone stated on CNN last night that there's talks of an Vaccination ID that people will receive. I would guess that would cover you to not wear a mask
Maybe we could get one for each vaccine we've received and then just pin them to our shirts like pieces of flair?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on December 03, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Once we all start getting vacines, are we still gonna have to wear masks? Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask. Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?
Part sarcasm but part serious question.
Quite simply. Yes.
We don't know if you can be a vector for disease spread still after vaccination. But you would be more likely to have a asymptomatic case. Which means, if you can still be a disease vector, you may be more likely to be a super spreader.
So masks are still absolutely necessary for those that get vaccinated, unless you only care about your self, and don't give a damn if you spread this to dozens of others.
What real presidents who really care about real Americans do ...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/02/covid-vaccine-obama-will-take-doses-might-film-to-build-confidence.html
Former Presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton have said they will take a coronavirus vaccine once one is available and may film it to build confidence in the U.S. about vaccine safety.
Quote from: MU11W on December 03, 2020, 09:59:59 AM
Maybe we could get one for each vaccine we've received and then just pin them to our shirts like pieces of flair?
Must.
Not.
Quote.
Office.
Space.
Here.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 03, 2020, 09:57:16 AM
Someone stated on CNN last night that there's talks of an Vaccination ID that people will receive. I would guess that would cover you to not wear a mask
Microchip or gold star?
I kid of course.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on December 03, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Once we all start getting vacines, are we still gonna have to wear masks? Like, if I get mine in April, but most people dont until June, am i the asshöle for not wearing a mask. Or do i get a hat or a sticker to wear, "vaccinated", and then I'm good?
Part sarcasm but part serious question.
You're usually the a-hole. Seriously, though, I don't think anyone has that answer yet.
Quote from: forgetful on December 03, 2020, 10:08:29 AM
Quite simply. Yes.
We don't know if you can be a vector for disease spread still after vaccination. But you would be more likely to have a asymptomatic case. Which means, if you can still be a disease vector, you may be more likely to be a super spreader.
So masks are still absolutely necessary for those that get vaccinated, unless you only care about your self, and don't give a damn if you spread this to dozens of others.
I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.
And I do hope they have a vaccine ID. I think it would open things up more quickly. For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.
FWIW, I am still wearing a mask in public. Common courtesy, really.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 03, 2020, 11:12:55 AM
I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.
And I do hope they have a vaccine ID. I think it would open things up more quickly. For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.
Agreed. As much as people would freak out about it being invasive it'd be good for the economy and a return to normalcy. Sports games, concerts, bars, restaurants, etc etc. I'd still wear a mask as a courtesy but would gladly waltz right into all my old favorite activities.
I'm going to corner the market on fake vaccine IDs.
Quote from: forgetful on December 03, 2020, 10:08:29 AM
Quite simply. Yes.
We don't know if you can be a vector for disease spread still after vaccination. But you would be more likely to have a asymptomatic case. Which means, if you can still be a disease vector, you may be more likely to be a super spreader.
So masks are still absolutely necessary for those that get vaccinated, unless you only care about your self, and don't give a damn if you spread this to dozens of others.
So the mask-related value projecting pissing match of 2021 is going to be about threading the needle between "the vaccine has been available long enough that anyone that wanted one has gotten one so you can take off your masks" and "the immunity of the first people to get vaccines might be wearing off so put your masks back on"? Looking forward to it.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 03, 2020, 01:00:18 PM
So the mask-related value projecting pissing match of 2021 is going to be about threading the needle between "the vaccine has been available long enough that anyone that wanted one has gotten one so you can take off your masks" and "the immunity of the first people to get vaccines might be wearing off so put your masks back on"? Looking forward to it.
We might as well sew 'em to our faces, hey?
In our current Presidential leadership vacuum, three former Presidents (Bush, Clinton and Obama) consider getting vaccinated on camera to bolster public confidence in the vaccines.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/12/03/covid-vaccine-obama-bush-clinton-said-theyll-take-publicly/3806592001/
Sure would be nice if the current occupant did more than just taking credit for OWS....
This is really cool .. shows a guess where you are in line for the vaccine:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/03/opinion/covid-19-vaccine-timeline.html
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 03, 2020, 02:14:15 PM
This is really cool .. shows a guess where you are in line for the vaccine:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/03/opinion/covid-19-vaccine-timeline.html
Anybody know if having a Left Bundle Branch Block would be considered a "covid related health risk" or "heart disease?" If so I am a little over 25% back in the line. If not (and I don't think it would be) I am the very last person in line in this exercise.
Quote from: BLM on December 03, 2020, 02:25:30 PM
Anybody know if having a Left Bundle Branch Block would be considered a "covid related health risk" or "heart disease?" If so I am a little over 25% back in the line. If not (and I don't think it would be) I am the very last person in line in this exercise.
yes it is a risk
So, on the obesity thing, are they going to have scales at the vaccination sites? Because I can always wear loose clothing and put rocks in my pockets.
Honestly, I can't help but be a little pissed that my cousin who hasn't left the couch or eaten a vegetable in 30 years is going get prioritized over those of us who made an effort to take care of ourselves.
My future Mother-in-law is a nurse at Elmbrook Hospital in Brookfield WI and she was notified that they would be getting shipments of the vaccine on the 11th. She also works as a nurse at the VA in Milwaukee and they will receive shipments on the 20th. These are for front-line workers.
Probably a dumb question, but how are they scheduled to get the vaccine before it is approved in the United States? Does this mean approval is imminent in the coming days?
Does anybody else have a dual citizenship and is monitoring EU approval?
I'm wondering if it would make more sense to head overseas for a bit and skip my place in line after I just saw my theoretical place in line using the link Topper posted.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 03, 2020, 02:34:16 PM
So, on the obesity thing, are they going to have scales at the vaccination sites? Because I can always wear loose clothing and put rocks in my pockets.
Honestly, I can't help but be a little pissed that my cousin who hasn't left the couch or eaten a vegetable in 30 years is going get prioritized over those of us who made an effort to take care of ourselves.
Based on that tool, I as an educator, who is required to teach in person.
And as a COVID researcher (considered essential by my University), and required to run a research group in person, and train researchers in person.
Will be behind those suffering from "obesity".
Quote from: BM1090 on December 03, 2020, 02:39:41 PM
Probably a dumb question, but how are they scheduled to get the vaccine before it is approved in the United States? Does this mean approval is imminent in the coming days?
The timelines are all based on the assumption that it gets approved this week.
I'm number 40. My only risk factor is being over 65.
A guy called WGN radio today to say that his mother, who lives in a nursing facility, has already been scheduled for her first shot at the end of December.
I'm number 4 out of 100.
I won't get the moderna vaccine.
I MIGHT get another version.
I've been leaning toward not getting one at all.
I'm gonna toggle the Covid health-risk button.
I'll wear two sweatshirts and a bulky Arby's jacket and say I'm obese.
How are they gonna check? Probably a health privacy violation to ask what the condition is anyhow.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 03, 2020, 04:48:19 PM
I'm gonna toggle the Covid health-risk button.
I'll wear two sweatshirts and a bulky Arby's jacket and say I'm obese.
How are they gonna check? Probably a health privacy violation to ask what the condition is anyhow.
You will probably have to get approval from a doc if you want to skip anywhere in the line.... just guessing.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 03, 2020, 04:25:05 PM
I'm number 4 out of 100.
I won't get the moderna vaccine.
I MIGHT get another version.
I've been leaning toward not getting one at all.
I certainly lean your way politically, but I'm hopeful you are not making your decisions based on politics.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 03, 2020, 11:12:55 AM
I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.
And I do hope they have a vaccine ID. I think it would open things up more quickly. For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.
Won't the tracker Gates puts in the vaccine cover that for us?
Quote from: reinko on December 03, 2020, 05:20:34 PM
I certainly lean your way politically, but I'm hopeful you are not making your decisions based on politics.
It isn't.
It's based on the unknown of long term safety monitoring. Especially for new tech like modernas
time to gain about 100 lbs
Y'all should have become police officers and firefighters when you had the chance.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 03, 2020, 11:12:55 AM
I wouldn't mind wearing a mask after getting the vaccine, even if its only purpose was to make other people more comfortable to be around me.
And I do hope they have a vaccine ID. I think it would open things up more quickly. For example, they could start letting people into basketball games, but you would have to show your vaccination ID as well as your ticket to get in.
Maybe wear da scarlet letter, aina?
I'm 95th in line.
As I expected, I'll probably get my first shot in late spring...
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 03, 2020, 04:59:04 PM
You will probably have to get approval from a doc if you want to skip anywhere in the line.... just guessing.
I very much doubt that. Same thing with saying you are a teacher. There'll be a box to check on the form, and in you go. Zero chance there'll be folks even asking for documents, let alone verifying they are true.
There will be elevendy million people showing up without a "note from their doctor." -- I have asthma, give me the shot now. No way they turn people away.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 03, 2020, 06:08:36 PM
I'm 95th in line.
As I expected, I'll probably get my first shot in late spring...
Same here.
I'm 53rd in line. Age 30. Non-essential. No risk factors. Surprised I'm not further back.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 03, 2020, 05:46:44 PM
It isn't.
It's based on the unknown of long term safety monitoring. Especially for new tech like modernas
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 03, 2020, 07:10:47 PM
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21 (https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1332077763809996801?s=21)
Still little comfort for me.
But I appreciate the info.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 03, 2020, 06:08:36 PM
I'm 95th in line.
As I expected, I'll probably get my first shot in late spring...
Late spring! Aren't you the optimist! People are going crazy over these calculators and rumors in healthcare circles that "it's coming", but the FDA isn't meeting until Dec 10 to talk about Pfizer, and Dec 17 to talk about Moderna. Nothing happens before those meetings.
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines
Quote from: cheebs09 on December 03, 2020, 05:26:34 PM
Won't the tracker Gates puts in the vaccine cover that for us?
If Gates wants to track my boring life inject me!
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 04, 2020, 12:35:07 AM
Late spring! Aren't you the optimist! People are going crazy over these calculators and rumors in healthcare circles that "it's coming", but the FDA isn't meeting until Dec 10 to talk about Pfizer, and Dec 17 to talk about Moderna. Nothing happens before those meetings.
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines
That isn't entirely true. I am almost positive they started distributing the vaccine. If that's the case shots for h/c workers can behind upon approval.
Yesterday though Pfizer lowered their expectation for number of doses in 2020 due to insufficient raw material. My bet is production and individual acceptance of the vaccine quickly become the biggest bottlenecks.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 03, 2020, 06:22:05 PM
I very much doubt that. Same thing with saying you are a teacher. There'll be a box to check on the form, and in you go. Zero chance there'll be folks even asking for documents, let alone verifying they are true.
There will be elevendy million people showing up without a "note from their doctor." -- I have asthma, give me the shot now. No way they turn people away.
Personally, I hope there is more organization than, 'just show up'. Not sure why they can't send people a post card with their date and place for their shot. Especially FRs, teachers, and etc. Occupation is listed on plenty of government forms. But I guess who knows.
Here's to hoping I guess!
Our department does not yet have any information about scheduling. We are hoping to have some clarity by the end of the year.
I was thankful to see Fauci blast the UK for their early vaccine approval. He's my chosen bellwether for whether things are above-board these past few months, and it would have cost him nothing to say nothing about the UK not following any real approvals process. Fauci coming out guns firing made me doubly sure that I picked a winning horse. If he thinks that while we're moving so fast to get a vaccine out that we're cutting too many corners? He'll say so.
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2020, 08:10:08 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontifications, hey?
No, not really.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2020, 08:10:08 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?
Wait you just admitted that trump's been wrong about something?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2020, 08:10:08 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?
Early on, many were wrong. It's not an excuse for Fauci, and it's bad that it happened.
Since April, as the experts learned what really made the coronavirus tick, Fauci and other top epidemiologists have been right about most things. Meanwhile, your emperor simply declared victory over COVID-19, didn't even follow his own guidelines, pretended that "it affects virtually nobody," held deadly super-spreader events, and lied non-stop for months and months.
But nice try.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2020, 08:10:08 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?
I agree! When he said 14 cases soon to be zero! Or pack the pews for Easter, or,
Should I continue and make you look even more foolish?
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 04, 2020, 10:26:36 AM
I agree! When he said 14 cases soon to be zero! Or pack the pews for Easter, or,
Should I continue and make you look even more foolish?
It's an easy task that many here have done repeatedly.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 04, 2020, 08:10:08 AM
Fauci's detached from reality. Been completely wrong in so many pontification. Trump should never have made him the face of Covid, hey?
Like Trump, you are so wrong about so much that I have to believe it is intentional.
Quote from: tower912 on December 04, 2020, 01:19:22 PM
Like Trump, you are so wrong about so much that I have to believe it is intentional.
Hanlon's razor
Another article that deals with vaccine driven immunity vs natural.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/covid-natural-immunity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/covid-natural-immunity.html)
How worried are people here about vaccine distribution? I don't anticipate a big problem with phase one, but think there will be serious issues going forward from there.
The prez has abdicated any responsibility. States will be expected to carry out phase 2 and beyond. States aren't getting money. States aren't getting any direction. I think this is an intentional plan so that when problems arise, it will all be put on Biden - who as someone who holds no office as all now - is doing way, way more than our so-called leader to deal with Covid.
There will be problems until January 20. Then there will be a all hands on deck effort to bring some order. Sorted out by St Patrick's day.
I have a friend with a winter hone in The Villages in Florida, he often shares links from their local news site ( the most ridiculous stuff goes on there). I saw a letter to the editor this morning that actually publicly said that the residents there should get priority over the rest of the state because they supported DeSantis and Trump in a big way. So problem solved.
If you're ever really bored, their news is a hoot. They are having a Trump golf cart rally today, for some completely unexplainable reason, as nobody is attacking Florida's vote, as far as I know.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on December 05, 2020, 01:09:32 PM
I have a friend with a winter hone in The Villages in Florida, he often shares links from their local news site ( the most ridiculous stuff goes on there). I saw a letter to the editor this morning that actually publicly said that the residents there should get priority over the rest of the state because they supported DeSantis and Trump in a big way. So problem solved.
If you're ever really bored, their news is a hoot. They are having a Trump golf cart rally today, for some completely unexplainable reason, as nobody is attacking Florida's vote, as far as I know.
I've got a friend whose mother lived there until she died 3 months ago. She has told me some of the crazy stuff down there. She's debating if it is worth being around these people for several weeks a year as she decides whether to keep the condo or sell. She is a lifelong republican who detest the mad king.
Quote from: Jockey on December 05, 2020, 12:05:58 PM
How worried are people here about vaccine distribution? I don't anticipate a big problem with phase one, but think there will be serious issues going forward from there.
The prez has abdicated any responsibility. States will be expected to carry out phase 2 and beyond. States aren't getting money. States aren't getting any direction. I think this is an intentional plan so that when problems arise, it will all be put on Biden - who as someone who holds no office as all now - is doing way, way more than our so-called leader to deal with Covid.
I'm worried about both supply chain issues (Pfizer is already decreasing estimates on vaccine due to reagent shortages), and distribution.
States haven't been provided the resources and money to actually execute this, and the WH has abdicated all the difficult aspects of distribution to the states.
Quote from: forgetful on December 05, 2020, 08:23:06 PM
I'm worried about both supply chain issues (Pfizer is already decreasing estimates on vaccine due to reagent shortages), and distribution.
States haven't been provided the resources and money to actually execute this, and the WH has abdicated all the difficult aspects of distribution to the states.
Yep. I worry that states will be on their own until late January. And they have neither the resources nor expertise to pull this off in the publicized timeframes.
I'm optimistic about distribution. There's a lot of federal money sloshing around.
It's an expectations game though. If your expectation is 350m US citizens will get 1-2 doses in 90 days, you will be unhappy.
Will it go as fast as people want? No. Will there be chaotic days and long lines? Probably. Will sites, states, and regions run out? Sure.
If you expect this to take 6-12 months and meet small, medium, and large issues along the way, it'll be the most successful public health episode in history.
I love it when people take pragmatic, big picture views.
I am sure there will be bottlenecks and glitches. Getting this done at all will be a huge accomplishment.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 06, 2020, 08:27:46 AM
I'm optimistic about distribution. There's a lot of federal money sloshing around.
It's an expectations game though. If your expectation is 350m US citizens will get 1-2 doses in 90 days, you will be unhappy.
Will it go as fast as people want? No. Will there be chaotic days and long lines? Probably. Will sites, states, and regions run out? Sure.
If you expect this to take 6-12 months and meet small, medium, and large issues along the way, it'll be the most successful public health episode in history.
The problem is all that federal money has been focused on how to get this to the states. That is actually the easy part. The hard part is the logistics of local delivery and execution. As far as I understand that, the "Operation Warp Speed" plan is to just leave that up to the States to figure out on their own, and the States have not been provided the finances and logistical support needed to execute.
Not a guarantee of a disaster, but if you were trying to cause one, that is a good way to do it.
Quote from: forgetful on December 06, 2020, 11:30:42 AM
The problem is all that federal money has been focused on how to get this to the states. That is actually the easy part. The hard part is the logistics of local delivery and execution. As far as I understand that, the "Operation Warp Speed" plan is to just leave that up to the States to figure out on their own, and the States have not been provided the finances and logistical support needed to execute.
Not a guarantee of a disaster, but if you were trying to cause one, that is a good way to do it.
Correct. The article below does a nice job of explaining the gap in OWS that you highlighted above, and highlighting the issues state officials are grappling with.
https://www.propublica.org/article/most-states-arent-ready-to-distribute-the-leading-covid-19-vaccine
The government's vaccine program, Operation Warp Speed, has projected optimism about its readiness to distribute the vaccine. On Monday, Gen. Gustave Perna told NPR, "I think we're in a good place," saying that "with the right planning, we can execute it with zero loss of vaccine." But the federal program is only going to be responsible for delivering vaccines to the states, which must then figure out on their own how to get the shots to the people who need them most. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention asked each state to turn in distribution plans on Nov. 2, imagining a scenario in which a vaccine with Pfizer's specifications came first.
ProPublica obtained full preliminary plans for 47 states (Hawaii, Pennsylvania and Minnesota say they're still working on theirs). Many struggled with how to handle a Pfizer-like vaccine. Washington state's Health Department does not have its own warehouse that can store the Pfizer vaccine at a cold enough temperature. Arizona expects the Pfizer vaccine cannot be handled by the state's rural communities and tribal lands. North Dakota and Oregon aren't sure how to take care of migrant workers. Kansas' plan appears to mistakenly assume shipments will be far smaller than 1,000 doses. Georgia's Public Health Department is relying on local districts and counties to work out their own details.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 06, 2020, 01:51:32 PM
Kansas' plan appears to mistakenly assume shipments will be far smaller than 1,000 doses. [/u].
I don't know anything about anything, but to anyone who has like, seen a truck on the highway, or received a shot from a syringe, this sounds sounds criminally stupid to me.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 06, 2020, 02:23:41 PM
I don't know anything about anything, but to anyone who has like, seen a truck on the highway, or received a shot from a syringe, this sounds sounds criminally stupid to me.
My daughter lived in Kansas for a year. She has always struggled with self-confidence, but told me she felt really smart there....
JB takes a lot of flack here in Illinois, but it seems to me that they laid out a solid plan this week ( unlike what was implied by the nurse quoted in the article, which was written a month ago), involving regional hospitals for storage, and partnering with CVS and Walgreens to go to care facilities, although we are only getting 1/4 of the original estimate. The city gets a separate allocation directly from the CDC.
It does appear that now some will be shipped in smaller amounts.
I live in Florida. We've already beaten the virus according to DeathSantis, so no real need for plans for distribution of the vaccine. Winning!
From the NYT:
Essential workers are expected to be among the first in line to receive vaccinations as they become available in the weeks and months ahead. But not all are guaranteed to take them. In New York City, the fire department is set to be among the first to receive the Pfizer vaccine that recently passed clinical trials and is now awaiting F.D.A. approval.
But the department announced last week that it would not require firefighters to take the vaccine, and a survey released over the weekend conducted for the firefighters' union found that more than half of the union's members didn't plan to take the vaccine when it became available to them.
This dovetails with the results of an Axios-Ipsos poll released late last month, showing that only about half of Americans were willing to take the first-generation vaccine immediately upon arrival, while the number jumped to 64 percent for a vaccine that had been around for a few months — and to 70 percent for a vaccine that had "been proven safe by public health officials."
Quote from: MU82 on December 07, 2020, 07:33:41 AM
From the NYT:
Essential workers are expected to be among the first in line to receive vaccinations as they become available in the weeks and months ahead. But not all are guaranteed to take them. In New York City, the fire department is set to be among the first to receive the Pfizer vaccine that recently passed clinical trials and is now awaiting F.D.A. approval.
But the department announced last week that it would not require firefighters to take the vaccine, and a survey released over the weekend conducted for the firefighters' union found that more than half of the union's members didn't plan to take the vaccine when it became available to them.
This dovetails with the results of an Axios-Ipsos poll released late last month, showing that only about half of Americans were willing to take the first-generation vaccine immediately upon arrival, while the number jumped to 64 percent for a vaccine that had been around for a fewg months — and to 70 percent for a vaccine that had "been proven safe by public health officials."
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
That isn't true
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
To be accurate, Biden said all along that he trusted the scientists, but not Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/us/politics/biden-trump-coronavirus-vaccine.html
With deaths from the coronavirus nearing 200,000 in the United States, Joseph R. Biden Jr. on Wednesday assailed President Trump for playing politics with a potential coronavirus vaccine, saying he did not trust Mr. Trump to determine when a vaccine was ready for Americans.
"Let me be clear: I trust vaccines," Mr. Biden said. "I trust scientists. But I don't trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can't either."
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
False.
Geez, QAnonesque.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
LOL.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
What right-wing crackpot website did you pull this little gem from?
https://www.thewrap.com/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/
Here's just one. Lots more out there. I've seen and heard both Biden and Harris casting doubts pre election.
He said he would trust the scientists. The fear was that a vaccine would be rushed out just to help Trump get re-elected, due to WH pressure. That did not happen.
I always said that when people like Dr. Fauci and, locally, Dr. Murphy said it was good to go, I would be fine with it. I have not heard anyone of my Dem friends say so far that they won't get it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 10:40:51 AM
https://www.thewrap.com/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/
Here's just one. Lots more out there. I've seen and heard both Biden and Harris casting doubts pre election.
Did you actually read that? It's quoted in the article:
"If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it, absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I'm not taking it," Harris said.
Essentially Harris and Biden wanted to be clear that they weren't going to jump on the vaccine equivalent of Hydroxy. They were going to wait till it was properly studied and vetted by scientists.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 10:40:51 AM
https://www.thewrap.com/kamala-harris-says-she-wouldnt-trust-a-vaccine-trump-recommended/
Here's just one. Lots more out there. I've seen and heard both Biden and Harris casting doubts pre election.
Your own link contradicts your statement about not trusting the vaccine:
Asked at Wednesday's vice-presidential debate whether she would take a vaccine approved by the Trump administration before or after the election, Harris said she'd be the "first in line" to take the vaccine if health experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci recommended it.
"If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it, absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I'm not taking it," Harris said.
Guys, Lenny's is trying really hard.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/22/biden-challenge-vaccine-messaging/
Here's another. Biden, Harris, et al absolutely cast doubts on any vaccine developed under Trump's watch. Of course (duh) they've walked back their knowingly false statements made during the campaign. But to say those statements had no consequences is purely partisan.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 10:55:17 AM
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/22/biden-challenge-vaccine-messaging/
Here's another. Biden, Harris, et al absolutely cast doubts on any vaccine developed under Trump's watch. Of course (duh) they've walked back their knowingly false statements made during the campaign. But to say those statements had no consequences is purely partisan.
All these comments were in the background of Trump suggesting he would overrule the FDA requiring 2-months of safety data, and overrule the independent advisory boards requiring 2-months of safety data, to force approval before the election, at largely his discretion.
Harris and Biden, rightfully said, let the science guide us. You are right, there is partisan politics going on here, but that partisan politics is on the GOP reframing their statements as anti-vax.
Quote from: forgetful on December 07, 2020, 11:03:15 AM
All these comments were in the background of Trump suggesting he would overrule the FDA requiring 2-months of safety data, and overrule the independent advisory boards requiring 2-months of safety data, to force approval before the election, at largely his discretion.
Harris and Biden, rightfully said, let the science guide us. You are right, there is partisan politics going on here, but that partisan politics is on the GOP reframing their statements as anti-vax.
Lenny's is trying SOOOOO hard!!!!
I can tell you he is not going to find the statements that he made anywhere (at least attributed to the people he put forth).
The medical/scientist crew that Biden is actively courting and bringing onto his staff would have lost their stuff if those statements were made. Plus, everyone who wants this to end knows that the barrier is people taking the vaccine. It's in all of our best interests that the President and the President-elect both remain active supporters of this.
We should all be afraid of the anti-vax/science campaign that is building steam. That is a HUGE threat and its the next thing that foreign countries are fanning the flames of.
Pretty sure Biden is going to join Clinton, Bush, and Obama and publicly get the vaccine, if Fauci says it safe. Oh, poor Lenny.
Lenny, I have so much respect for you. Please don't turn into one of those people who post links that say the opposite of what you claim thinking you are making a point. A la, Chicos, Warriordad, PA2, Guru.
Lenny's just doing some good-natured trolling.
At least I hope so, otherwise I'm a little worried about his reading comprehension.
"I'm anti-vax because Kamala Harris told me to be" - The alt-right
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
I was just going to reply and realized there were already 15 other excellent replies already flushing this one down for good.
Moving on.............
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 07, 2020, 11:48:21 AM
"I'm anti-vax because Kamala Harris told me to be" - The alt-right
I was thinking the same thing.
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn't take the "Trump Vaccine" what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a "Trump Vaccine". No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 12:43:02 PM
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn't take the "Trump Vaccine" what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a "Trump Vaccine". No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.
Lenny - You keep putting these items in quotes, but none of your support has anyone saying those words. Where was it said and what is the context?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 12:43:02 PM
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn't take the "Trump Vaccine" what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a "Trump Vaccine". No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.
Keep it up Lenny!! Someday you'll get there!!!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
Oh Jesus...
:o
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 12:43:02 PM
When Harris or Biden said they wouldn't take the "Trump Vaccine" what exactly do you think they meant? There was never going to be a "Trump Vaccine". No vaccine was going to be developed, approved and distributed by Trump. Development, approval and distribution were about drug companies and the FDA - whether Trump or Biden was President mattered not at all. What if Pfizer and Moderna had announced a month earlier? And the FDA set their approval date at Nov 1? And if Fauci gave his blessing? That was the scenario that would have resulted in what Harris and Biden were falsely calling the Trump Vaccine. And had that been the timeline, Because of the election they would have gone after the FDA and Fauci - because any vaccine that stood in the way of their election had to be so characterized. They admitted as much in their statements.
I'm going to try to keep this simple.
The bolded would violate the FDA and independent advisory board requirement of 2-months of data. Pfizer/Moderna said they were going to follow the FDA and independent advisory board requirements. So there was no situation where Pfizer and Moderna would announce earlier with Fauci's approval.
But...
Trump tried to circumvent that to reach his "promised timeline," and called the FDA and independent advisory board's requirements a "political move" by the "deep-state" trying to hurt his re-election.
Biden and Harris said if Trump did so (e.g. Trump's vaccine), they wouldn't trust it, as they shouldn't because the safety profile wouldn't have been vetted yet.
This article provides context.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/519841-fda-asking-covid-19-vaccine-developers-for-safety-data-likely-pushing
By the way, while we all wait to hear about where the bogeyman statements came from, this person is invited to capital hill to testify.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/doctor-critical-vaccine-mandates-testify-senate-covid-treatments-n1250260 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/doctor-critical-vaccine-mandates-testify-senate-covid-treatments-n1250260)
Lenny, will it make you feel better if I say the vaccine was 100% developed while Trump was president?
Now, what exactly does that now change to our current situation? Does that make the vaccine more effective to you? Are you less likely to get it because the results were announced after the election?
Shut up, mask up
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2020, 11:34:30 AM
Pretty sure Biden is going to join Clinton, Bush, and Obama and publicly get the vaccine, if Fauci says it safe. Oh, poor Lenny.
Lenny, I have so much respect for you. Please don't turn into one of those people who post links that say the opposite of what you claim thinking you are making a point. A la, Chicos, Warriordad, PA2, Guru.
1. To your 1st point, what do you think the over/under will be (in hours) until the right says that it's a hoax and they just got a placebo? I'd put the number at 1 and take the under.
2. I think almost to a man we respect Lenny on this board. A quality poster for a long time. But like all of us have done on more than one occasion, he made a dumb post and took flak for it. No harm / no foul.
Quote from: Jockey on December 07, 2020, 03:12:08 PM
2. I think almost to a man we respect Lenny on this board. A quality poster for a long time. But like all of us have done on more than one occasion, he made a dumb post and took flak for it. No harm / no foul.
This. And I point out clarifications not to give flak, but on the honest belief that sometimes people simply misunderstand something said/done, or were misled.
Great. How incompetent.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/07/world/covid-19-coronavirus?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes#trump-administration-officials-passed-when-pfizer-offered-in-late-summer-to-sell-the-us-more-vaccine-doses
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 07, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
Great. How incompetent.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/07/world/covid-19-coronavirus?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes#trump-administration-officials-passed-when-pfizer-offered-in-late-summer-to-sell-the-us-more-vaccine-doses
Classic.
All happening while patting themselves on the back.
Quote from: Jockey on December 07, 2020, 03:12:08 PM
2. I think almost to a man we respect Lenny on this board. A quality poster for a long time. But like all of us have done on more than one occasion, he made a dumb post and took flak for it. No harm / no foul.
Agreed. Good quality poster who seems to have been misled on this issue. I value Lenny's contributions to Scoop, and hope he's here for a long time to come.
Oh look, Dick Uihlein and his funded rag going full anti-vaxx.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/12/07/science-says-im-in-the-back-of-the-covid-vaccine-line-but-government-and-corporations-will-force-me-through-it/
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 10:55:17 AM
https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/22/biden-challenge-vaccine-messaging/
Here's another. Biden, Harris, et al absolutely cast doubts on any vaccine developed under Trump's watch. Of course (duh) they've walked back their knowingly false statements made during the campaign. But to say those statements had no consequences is purely partisan.
Providing links that actually disprove your point? Check
Doubling down after being shown that you are wrong? Check
You're acting like Chicos. Don't be a Chicos.
Quote from: forgetful on December 07, 2020, 01:23:44 PM
I'm going to try to keep this simple.
The bolded would violate the FDA and independent advisory board requirement of 2-months of data. Pfizer/Moderna said they were going to follow the FDA and independent advisory board requirements. So there was no situation where Pfizer and Moderna would announce earlier with Fauci's approval.
But...
Trump tried to circumvent that to reach his "promised timeline," and called the FDA and independent advisory board's requirements a "political move" by the "deep-state" trying to hurt his re-election.
Biden and Harris said if Trump did so (e.g. Trump's vaccine), they wouldn't trust it, as they shouldn't because the safety profile wouldn't have been vetted yet.
This article provides context.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/519841-fda-asking-covid-19-vaccine-developers-for-safety-data-likely-pushing
Forgetful
I very much respect your knowledge in the these matters, but (IMO) when Kamala Harris says, "If Donald Trump says take the vaccine, I ain't takin' it" (direct quote) she's being disingenuous and undermining faith in a vaccine developed while Trump is president. She (and everybody else) knows that a vaccine can't be approved without the drug companies, FDA, etc. putting their stamp of approval on it. It's not like we'd get a vaccine based on Trump's senseless ramblings (hydroxy, bleach, etc.). It'll only be available when it's proven safe and effective, regardless of who is President. Suggesting a scenario under which an unsafe, ineffective vaccine would be available because the Donald wanted it that way was (IMO) bullish!t. And she knew that. On all of this, I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks, too, to Tower, Goooo, Jockey and 82 (and anyone else I'm missing). Sticking up for me even when you think I've driven off the rails is kind and very much appreciated.
Found out today that I'm in Tier 1 at work. Wisconsin is expecting about 50k at first and our hospital is expecting that health care workers will get the first doses.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:16:57 PM
Forgetful
I very much respect your knowledge in the these matters, but (IMO) when Kamala Harris says, "If Donald Trump says take the vaccine, I ain't takin' it" (direct quote) she's being disingenuous and undermining faith in a vaccine developed while Trump is president. She (and everybody else) knows that a vaccine can't be approved without the drug companies, FDA, etc. putting their stamp of approval on it. It's not like we'd get a vaccine based on Trump's senseless ramblings (hydroxy, bleach, etc.). It'll only be available when it's proven safe and effective, regardless of who is President. Suggesting a scenario under which an unsafe, ineffective vaccine would be available because the Donald wanted it that way was (IMO) bullish!t. And she knew that. On all of this, I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks, too, to Tower, Goooo, Jockey and 82 (and anyone else I'm missing). Sticking up for me even when you think I've driven off the rails is kind and very much appreciated.
A word in your defense, Lenny. Libs all knew what Kamala meant - she would not take a virus if trump put his thumb on the scales to get it approved. But,.... we dont all use the same news sources and many reported it the way you wrote about.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:16:57 PM
Forgetful
I very much respect your knowledge in the these matters, but (IMO) when Kamala Harris says, "If Donald Trump says take the vaccine, I ain't takin' it" (direct quote) she's being disingenuous and undermining faith in a vaccine developed while Trump is president. She (and everybody else) knows that a vaccine can't be approved without the drug companies, FDA, etc. putting their stamp of approval on it. It's not like we'd get a vaccine based on Trump's senseless ramblings (hydroxy, bleach, etc.). It'll only be available when it's proven safe and effective, regardless of who is President. Suggesting a scenario under which an unsafe, ineffective vaccine would be available because the Donald wanted it that way was (IMO) bullish!t. And she knew that. On all of this, I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Thanks for the kinds words. Thanks, too, to Tower, Goooo, Jockey and 82 (and anyone else I'm missing). Sticking up for me even when you think I've driven off the rails is kind and very much appreciated.
So you are quadrupling down on this? Are you trying to out-stupid your "BLM is Marxist" statements over the summer?
Lots of good vaccine news.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-set-to-release-analyses-of-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-11607423403 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-set-to-release-analyses-of-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-11607423403)
Great to hear the Pfizer vaccine can confer some protection after the first dose. I just hope that doesn't lead to large numbers skipping the second dose, assuming they're all protected.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2020, 08:21:34 AM
Great to hear the Pfizer vaccine can confer some protection after the first dose. I just hope that doesn't lead to large numbers skipping the second dose, assuming they're all protected.
Its a shame that the WH turned down buying more of these vaccines to ensure American's got it first. Now, Europe is already being vaccinated by the Pfizer vaccine, while there will be shortages in the US.
Quote from: forgetful on December 08, 2020, 09:07:20 AM
Its a shame that the WH turned down buying more of these vaccines to ensure American's got it first. Now, Europe is already being vaccinated by the Pfizer vaccine, while there will be shortages in the US.
Yep. I have long believed that it will likely be late spring or early summer before vaccines are widely available to the general public. And even that may be optimistic if the federal government doesn't wake up and provide resources for distribution and administration.
OWS was a good and necessary thing, but the execution seems questionable. If they were only going to choose to support and purchase from one mRNA vaccine manufacturer, it makes no sense to choose an unproven company like Moderna over a company with a long and successful track record like Pfizer.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2020, 08:21:34 AM
Great to hear the Pfizer vaccine can confer some protection after the first dose. I just hope that doesn't lead to large numbers skipping the second dose, assuming they're all protected.
Here is a good explanation as to why that's bad (or conversely the suggestions to one-dose more people rather than full dose less)
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1336323008755978241?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1336323008755978241?s=21)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2020, 09:55:31 AM
Yep. I have long believed that it will likely be late spring or early summer before vaccines are widely available to the general public. And even that may be optimistic if the federal government doesn't wake up and provide resources for distribution and administration.
OWS was a good and necessary thing, but the execution seems questionable. If they were only going to choose to support and purchase from one mRNA vaccine manufacturer, it makes no sense to choose an unproven company like Moderna over a company with a long and successful track record like Pfizer.
I agree, and a certain contingent will blame it all on the new administration and claim that if the other party was in power everyone would have been vaccinated by the end of February with no problems.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 08, 2020, 09:55:31 AM
Yep. I have long believed that it will likely be late spring or early summer before vaccines are widely available to the general public. And even that may be optimistic if the federal government doesn't wake up and provide resources for distribution and administration.
OWS was a good and necessary thing, but the execution seems questionable. If they were only going to choose to support and purchase from one mRNA vaccine manufacturer, it makes no sense to choose an unproven company like Moderna over a company with a long and successful track record like Pfizer.
Gottlieb who carries a lot of weight in general but even more so as a board member of Pfizer confirming the reports.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/529212-trump-officials-passed-on-multiple-offers-to-buy-more-pfizer-vaccine (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/529212-trump-officials-passed-on-multiple-offers-to-buy-more-pfizer-vaccine)
I get the position by Slaoui we could be fine without more from Pfizer. But if Moderna has production problems or either Oxford or J&J have issues getting approved it's not going to look good at all.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 08, 2020, 07:48:23 AM
So you are quadrupling down on this? Are you trying to out-stupid your "BLM is Marxist" statements over the summer?
Shocking that you are the one trying to keep the argument going. ::)
Quote from: forgetful on December 08, 2020, 09:07:20 AM
Its a shame that the WH turned down buying more of these vaccines to ensure American's got it first. Now, Europe is already being vaccinated by the Pfizer vaccine, while there will be shortages in the US.
Forgetful, could you (or anyone else) explain a little about how these pre-purchases work? I'm generally far from a Trump administration apologist, but it seems like a really tough spot to determine how to purchase/reserve from a number of competing vaccines, all before any have received any approvals and it seems even before release of sufficient testing data to project which will be the most successful? I'm not jazzed about what I'm hearing about the untested nature of the Moderna technology nor their track record of bringing products to market, but was the alternative to put all of our eggs in the Pfizer basket? In that case, would it have been possible that another vaccine proved more effective than Pfizer, and we'd be blaming the administration for just throwing gobs of money at Pfizer without sufficient evidence that it shouldn't have been diversifying among the vaccine candidates?
I just watched the video of Dr. Murphy from Northwestern who is on the WGN morning news everyday. He said that the feds bought millions of doses from a number of different companies working on possible vaccines, which he said is what they had to do. And sometimes those work out great, and sometimes the vaccines don't work out, so basically you are hedging your bets. You cannot put all your eggs in one basket. He was more optimistic about the Moderna also entering the picture right now than the Astra-Zeneca.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 08, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
Forgetful, could you (or anyone else) explain a little about how these pre-purchases work? I'm generally far from a Trump administration apologist, but it seems like a really tough spot to determine how to purchase/reserve from a number of competing vaccines, all before any have received any approvals and it seems even before release of sufficient testing data to project which will be the most successful? I'm not jazzed about what I'm hearing about the untested nature of the Moderna technology nor their track record of bringing products to market, but was the alternative to put all of our eggs in the Pfizer basket? In that case, would it have been possible that another vaccine proved more effective than Pfizer, and we'd be blaming the administration for just throwing gobs of money at Pfizer without sufficient evidence that it shouldn't have been diversifying among the vaccine candidates?
First, we didn't have to fund only one mRNA vaccine manufacturer. That was an Administration decision. They could just as easily funded both Pfizer and Moderna. Frankly, that would have been my choice.
But once it got down to a choice between the two, my preference would have been for a company that has successfully brought many products to market. Even a 6-month delay due to a supply chain issue would be devastating, so I'd rather bet on a company who has vast experience with such matters.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 08, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
Forgetful, could you (or anyone else) explain a little about how these pre-purchases work? I'm generally far from a Trump administration apologist, but it seems like a really tough spot to determine how to purchase/reserve from a number of competing vaccines, all before any have received any approvals and it seems even before release of sufficient testing data to project which will be the most successful? I'm not jazzed about what I'm hearing about the untested nature of the Moderna technology nor their track record of bringing products to market, but was the alternative to put all of our eggs in the Pfizer basket? In that case, would it have been possible that another vaccine proved more effective than Pfizer, and we'd be blaming the administration for just throwing gobs of money at Pfizer without sufficient evidence that it shouldn't have been diversifying among the vaccine candidates?
Gooo has already hit on some important details, but I'll add another.
Eventually we will need 600+M doses for our country. Does that mean you only order 400M..., 600M doses? For an extra $2-3B we could have secured another 100M doses from Pfizer. Worst case scenario, we don't need them and can donate/sell them to other countries.
We should have over bought if anything. Make sure that we have insurance plans in case some don't pan out, don't skimp.
Not to mention that prepurchasing more, would have likely led them to invest more in production allowing more doses to come online faster.
Extremely short-sighted and odd move.
Quote from: forgetful on December 08, 2020, 01:59:42 PM
Extremely short-sighted and odd move.
Not really for the most incompetent administration of all time.
Thanks to everyone that responded. I am pretty ignorant on how the particulars of buying doses before approval or full development of the data, so this has been helpful.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 08, 2020, 04:24:10 PM
Thanks to everyone that responded. I am pretty ignorant on how the particulars of buying doses before approval or full development of the data, so this has been helpful.
Forgetful and Goo have been outstanding resources here.
Looks like WI heath officials are guessing that the population of WI will be vaccinated by Fall 2021
https://www.wisn.com/article/covid-19-wisconsin-warns-most-wont-get-vaccine-until-fall-of-2021/34908664
> Department of Health Services Secretary Andrea Palm: "It really is hard to express how long it will take to vaccinate enough folks to get to a place where we can get back to normal," she said. "I think our best guess is the late summer, fall timeframe."
> She added that of the COVID-19 tests done in Wisconsin to date, about 2.6 million, are still fewer than the number of Wisconsinites who must be vaccinated.
Somewhere in one of these threads, somebody asked if a person still needs to wear a mask once they get the vaccine. I believe forgetful already answered that question (YES) and briefly explained why, but I found this NYTimes article to be a good reminder as well:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask.html?action=click&algo=lda&block=editors_picks_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=415636143&impression_id=18cfdcc2-3b20-11eb-9899-d99550749359&index=2&pgtype=Article®ion=ccolumn&req_id=44031104&surface=home-featured&variant=1_lda&action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article®ion=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending
The advisory panel voted 17-4 for approval of the vaccine.
Is it normal to have about 20% of the panel go against a vaccine and still have it OK'd? Is it usually unanimous or closer to it?
Quote from: Jockey on December 10, 2020, 11:06:40 PM
The advisory panel voted 17-4 for approval of the vaccine.
Is it normal to have about 20% of the panel go against a vaccine and still have it OK'd? Is it usually unanimous or closer to it?
Drugs are often approved with split votes. In this case, I would not be too troubled by the four dissenting votes. As I understand it, the chief concern was use in 16 and 17-year-olds. Frankly, I was surprised that they even considered this, and expected it only to be considered (and approved) for ages 18 and up.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 10, 2020, 11:24:41 PM
Drugs are often approved with split votes. In this case, I would not be too troubled by the four dissenting votes. As I understand it, the chief concern was use in 16 and 17-year-olds. Frankly, I was surprised that they even considered this, and expected it only to be considered (and approved) for ages 18 and up.
Thanks, Goo. Kinda what I thought, but wasn't sure.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 10, 2020, 11:24:41 PM
Drugs are often approved with split votes. In this case, I would not be too troubled by the four dissenting votes. As I understand it, the chief concern was use in 16 and 17-year-olds. Frankly, I was surprised that they even considered this, and expected it only to be considered (and approved) for ages 18 and up.
I didn't realize they approved it for 16 an 17 year olds. That is surprising, and kind of odd, as I think it is completely unnecessary to authorize it for 16 and 17 year olds at the moment as they will not be remotely near any priority groups.
I just saw that Pfizer said that the 100 million doses might be all we get until June.
Not good news.
Quote from: Jockey on December 10, 2020, 11:36:45 PM
I just saw that Pfizer said that the 100 million doses might be all we get until June.
Not good news.
That's what happens when the US government passes on buying more doses and the rest of the world is beating down their door.
Quote from: forgetful on December 10, 2020, 11:36:17 PM
I didn't realize they approved it for 16 an 17 year olds. That is surprising, and kind of odd, as I think it is completely unnecessary to authorize it for 16 and 17 year olds at the moment as they will not be remotely near any priority groups.
Yep.
In addition to being unnecessary, I think it was a really bad strategic move. They needed to bolster public confidence in the midst of widespread concerns about people declining to take the vaccine, and a unanimous vote might have helped. Instead, they virtually guaranteed dissenting votes by including minors. And in so doing, they just made public health officials' jobs harder....
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccine-priority-enforcement-b42245dc-cdf0-4eec-9d6b-0769af4f63e6.html
Jumping the line for a vaccine will be pretty easy
..Experts have spent months debating the ins and outs of a complex prioritization system for these vaccines, all in the hopes of saving as many lives as possible. But the actual process will likely rely heavily on the honor system.
..providers will likely have to take people's claims that they're members of certain priority groups at face value.
..If you say you have diabetes, they're not going to want to see your blood sugar," said Eric Toner, a senior scholar with the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security.
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.
Quote from: Jockey on December 11, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.
I suspect he is actually
trying to undermine public confidence in the vaccine by creating the illusion that it was approved due to political pressure...so then he can blame Biden later when distribution and administration of the vaccine hits roadblocks.
Or it could just be his Napoleon complex....
Quote from: Jockey on December 11, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.
That's so delicious.
Quote from: Jockey on December 11, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.
For those saying Trump wouldn't/couldn't do something like this. Well here you go.
Fortunately, they've at least been able to collect the 2-months of safety data, and have the panel undergo a full review of the data.
Still...seriously, WTF.
This is exactly what Vice President-Elect Harris was talking about when she said she absolutely would listen to the scientists but would not take it just because the outgoing, lame-duck president was pushing it.
Exactly.
Maybe it's a controlling rights and patent issue thing, but could say Phizer and Moderna contract out production of the vaccine recipes to other pharmaceutical companies to ramp up production and availability way quicker?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 11, 2020, 03:50:49 PM
Maybe it's a controlling rights and patent issue thing, but could say Phizer and Moderna contract out production of the vaccine recipes to other pharmaceutical companies to ramp up production and availability way quicker?
Absolutely; this happens all the time. They just need to make sure the facility meets FDA guidelines for manufacturing ("Good Manufacturing Practices"). As a matter of fact, I'd be very surprised if smaller companies like Moderna haven't done this.
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/pharmaceutical-quality-resources/current-good-manufacturing-practice-cgmp-regulations
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 11, 2020, 03:50:49 PM
Maybe it's a controlling rights and patent issue thing, but could say Phizer and Moderna contract out production of the vaccine recipes to other pharmaceutical companies to ramp up production and availability way quicker?
I've wondered bout this myself, from the standpoint of the defense production act. I really don't think it is a rights/patent issue thing. Although I don't know the exact formulation, which is important for long-term stability and other factors, I could pretty much vaccinate myself (will not, because 1) its dangerous. 2) I don't know the exact formulations).
I think the bigger issue is that we really haven't ever mass produced an mRNA vaccine, so the types of production facilities for making these formulations on scale, and also even making and validating the mRNA sequences on this type of scale, never really existed until Moderna and Pfizer built it.
So really not excess production ability out there. Could be made on smaller scales in more localized places, but validation/quality control still becomes a bit of an issue, and is part of the overall approval.
I think in terms of production infrastructure, this would have needed to be done earlier...maybe that is what Moderna did, as Goooo suggests.
Quote from: forgetful on December 11, 2020, 04:11:20 PM
I think the bigger issue is that we really haven't ever mass produced an mRNA vaccine, so the types of production facilities for making these formulations on scale, and also even making and validating the mRNA sequences on this type of scale, never really existed until Moderna and Pfizer built it.
Excellent point. Even though they could
theoretically contract out the manufacturing, the
practical aspect of finding a GMP-certified facility for mRNA vaccines might be a problem.
Quote from: Jockey on December 11, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Trump orders FDA chief to authorize vaccine today or he will be fired.
Dr. Hahn denied that occurred,
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 04:40:44 PM
Dr. Hahn denied that occurred,
The president tweeted it. So it happened, Not sure though if Hahn knew about it.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 11, 2020, 04:42:23 PM
The president tweeted it. So it happened, Not sure though if Hahn knew about it.
I dont read his tweets did he say he would be fired?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 11, 2020, 04:42:23 PM
The president tweeted it. So it happened, Not sure though if Hahn knew about it.
Part of the bizarro world of this dysfunctional administration.
Like when Comey learned that he had 'resigned' by seeing it on a newscast when he was at FBI's LA field office...
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 04:51:22 PM
I dont read his tweets did he say he would be fired?
Meadows told him to 'submit his resignation' if it isn't approved by the end of the day....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-stephen-hahn-fda-covid-vaccine/
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2020, 04:56:32 PM
Meadows told him to 'submit his resignation' if it isn't approved by the end of the day....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-stephen-hahn-fda-covid-vaccine/
the cnn article states Hahn denied this.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 04:51:22 PM
I dont read his tweets did he say he would be fired?
My mistake. It does not say those words. I was mixed what the tweet said (get the vaccines out now) with an article that attributed the firing thing to meadows.
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1337369403638362114?s=21 (https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1337369403638362114?s=21)
Hahn has been quoted saying that was not what happened on the call.
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 05:01:28 PM
Hahn has been quoted saying that was not what happened on the call.
Yes I know. I admitted that I was mistaken about the tweet
Hahn has to deny it. If he doesn't, he plays along with Trump's game of undermining public trust in the vaccine.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 11, 2020, 05:04:13 PM
Yes I know. I admitted that I was mistaken about the tweet
No worries, wasnt trying to call you out, and I am no means a Trump guy. He's done enough stupid and dangerous stuff, but even hes not that stupid. The public has to trust the vaccine
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 11, 2020, 05:11:18 PM
No worries, wasnt trying to call you out, and I am no means a Trump guy. He's done enough stupid and dangerous stuff, but even hes not that stupid. The public has to trust the vaccine
Absolutely critical. Whether it happened or not, Hahn did the right thing by denying it.
apologize if this has been mentioned as i haven't read all 700+ comments in this thread, but how long does it take for one to develop immune defense against virus after receiving the vaccine?
(https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/F10B/production/_115770716_aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavaccine_dose_calendar_640_3x-nc.png)
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 11, 2020, 09:42:01 PM
(https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/F10B/production/_115770716_aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavaccine_dose_calendar_640_3x-nc.png)
thanks rock! but damn! i hate needles :D
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 11, 2020, 10:12:07 PM
thanks rock! but damn! i hate needles :D
Hopefully the person administering yours won't be a female with a shaved head
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 11, 2020, 10:51:03 PM
Hopefully the person administering yours won't be a female with a shaved head
and why would that be mr jesmu84? hell, i wouldn't mind if the female had all her business taken care of and well landscaped
I was wondering if it was legal for businesses, and even government entities, could require employees to get vaccinated. Well, thanks to the NYT, I found out the answer: Yes, totally legal.
In 1905, the Supreme Court ruled against a pastor, Henning Jacobson, who had sued the state of Massachusetts for requiring residents to take a vaccine after an outbreak of smallpox. "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others," the court ruled. "It is, then, liberty regulated by law."
That ruling, and others after, it have repeatedly reaffirmed this principle. As for private businesses, they can choose to hire, fire and transact with anyone, unless they discriminate based on a protected category.
That will get challenged. For some religious freedom reason, so it will have a decent chance of being overturned.
Opinion piece about Coivd 19 vaccines being worthless if people aren't vaccinated
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529856-covid-19-vaccines-are-worthless-if-people-arent-vaccinated
Quote from: Marquette Fan on December 12, 2020, 08:52:41 AM
Opinion piece about Coivd 19 vaccines being worthless if people aren't vaccinated
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529856-covid-19-vaccines-are-worthless-if-people-arent-vaccinated
Vaccines don't stop epidemics. Vaccinations do.
Quote from: tower912 on December 12, 2020, 08:26:03 AM
That will get challenged. For some religious freedom reason, so it will have a decent chance of being overturned.
It will likely be challenged, but I am not so sure it will be overturned. Even with the conservative makeup of the Supreme Court, clear established precedent is difficult to overturn.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 12, 2020, 09:32:48 AM
It will likely be challenged, but I am not so sure it will be overturned. Even with the conservative makeup of the Supreme Court, clear established precedent is difficult to overturn.
This would be my take as well. Overturning this would require the Supreme Court to completely disregard very well established legal precedent, including multiple SCOTUS decisions.
Wouldn't entirely rule it out, as we have a couple new jurists that really don't care about precedent, but would be a bit surprised.
I was a bit embarrassed by the President's proclamation on the USA ending the pandemic with "their" vaccine.
This vaccine is jointly developed by Pfizer (US) and BioNtech (German). BioNtech has the specific expertise in mRNA technology, development, and production. They are essential to this vaccine.
It is more an example of how international collaboration can lead to major breakthroughs. Instead of celebrating international collaboration, he decided to make it political, and about us being better than others. It honestly is a sign of why we can't have nice things. Ego, and privilege "trumping," cooperation and equality.
Quote from: forgetful on December 12, 2020, 12:33:23 PM
I was a bit embarrassed by the President's proclamation on the USA ending the pandemic with "their" vaccine.
This vaccine is jointly developed by Pfizer (US) and BioNtech (German). BioNtech has the specific expertise in mRNA technology, development, and production. They are essential to this vaccine.
It is more an example of how international collaboration can lead to major breakthroughs. Instead of celebrating international collaboration, he decided to make it political, and about us being better than others. It honestly is a sign of why we can't have nice things. Ego, and privilege "trumping," cooperation and equality.
From the snippet of an interview I heard, BioN really did the majority of the science, but they needed a much larger partner in order to get through all the steps to get it to market. They did not have the resources to get it through Phase III and so used Pfizer for all their infrastructure.
Quote from: forgetful on December 12, 2020, 12:33:23 PM
I was a bit embarrassed by the President's proclamation on the USA ending the pandemic with "their" vaccine.
This vaccine is jointly developed by Pfizer (US) and BioNtech (German). BioNtech has the specific expertise in mRNA technology, development, and production. They are essential to this vaccine.
It is more an example of how international collaboration can lead to major breakthroughs. Instead of celebrating international collaboration, he decided to make it political, and about us being better than others. It honestly is a sign of why we can't have nice things. Ego, and privilege "trumping," cooperation and equality.
It's only the 73,552th time he has humiliated our democratic republic and the Office of the Presidency.
I am probably going to defer getting the shot until spring. I am not anti-vaxx. But there are a limited number of initial doses and I have the antibodies. I can't morally or ethically justify staying at the front of the line. When the vaccine is available to all, I will get it then.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 13, 2020, 08:13:17 AM
From the snippet of an interview I heard, BioN really did the majority of the science, but they needed a much larger partner in order to get through all the steps to get it to market. They did not have the resources to get it through Phase III and so used Pfizer for all their infrastructure.
Correct. This is verified by Pfizer's press release announcing the collaboration.
https://investors.pfizer.com/investor-news/press-release-details/2020/Pfizer-and-BioNTech-to-Co-Develop-Potential-COVID-19-Vaccine/default.aspx
The collaboration aims to accelerate development of BioNTech's potential first-in-class COVID-19 mRNA vaccine program, BNT162, which is expected to enter clinical testing by the end of April 2020. The rapid advancement of this collaboration builds on the research and development collaboration into which Pfizer and BioNTech entered in 2018 to develop mRNA-based vaccines for prevention of influenza.
"We are proud that our ongoing, successful relationship with BioNTech gives our companies the resiliency to mobilize our collective resources with extraordinary speed in the face of this worldwide challenge," said Mikael Dolsten, Chief Scientific Officer and President, Worldwide Research, Development & Medical, Pfizer. "We believe that by pairing Pfizer's development, regulatory and commercial capabilities with BioNTech's mRNA vaccine technology and expertise as one of the industry leaders, we are reinforcing our commitment to do everything we can to combat this escalating pandemic, as quickly as possible."
These vaccines are a product of globalism. Efficiencies of scale plus innovation in startups. Plus a chip for both capitalism and socialism and how they can interact.
But bad, I guess.
Quote from: tower912 on December 13, 2020, 09:23:39 AM
I am probably going to defer getting the shot until spring. I am not anti-vaxx. But there are a limited number of initial doses and I have the antibodies. I can't morally or ethically justify staying at the front of the line. When the vaccine is available to all, I will get it then.
good points tower. i'm going to get tested for antibodies first. i have been seeing patients since may 1st. i don't even want to guess how many people i have been in contact with since then...a few thousand?? if i had covid, it had to have been a very mild form because i never noted any of the symptoms i've been reading of. i haven't missed a day of work due to any illness for multiple years. i know i am not invincible, and i thank the good Lord every day for my good health...today. i owe it to one who may need it more than i
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 13, 2020, 10:25:47 AM
good points tower. i'm going to get tested for antibodies first. i have been seeing patients since may 1st. i don't even want to guess how many people i have been in contact with since then...a few thousand?? if i had covid, it had to have been a very mild form because i never noted any of the symptoms i've been reading of. i haven't missed a day of work due to any illness for multiple years. i know i am not invincible, and i thank the good Lord every day for my good health...today. i owe it to one who may need it more than i
Many locations are hurting for blood donors. If you donate through the Red Cross, they will do an antibody test for free and it just takes a couple of days.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 14, 2020, 08:53:40 AM
Many locations are hurting for blood donors. If you donate through the Red Cross, they will do an antibody test for free and it just takes a couple of days.
This is exactly how my parents found out they had antibodies.
Chief of Critical Care at United Memorial Medical Center in Houston, said more than 50% of his nursing staff does not want to get the Coronavirus vaccine. When he asked them why, the reasons were political:
It's towards the end of the 6 minutes.
https://twitter.com/BrandyZadrozny/status/1339182966082310144?s=19
My mother, who has been in the hospital for the last 2+ months for stuff other than COVID, told me that she wasn't going to get the vaccine as long as Trump was in office. I yelled at her. Told her that was one of the dumbest things she had ever said and that if she didn't take the vaccine when offered she was a damn fool.
Obviously, I am past the point of worrying about my parent's feelings.
I feel for ya, Tower. My parents apparently get their medical news from right-wing Catholic sources who ran with the "made with real aborted fetus!" story about the vaccine, and now they refuse to take it.
Oh, and dad's a immunocompromised transplant recipient.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 16, 2020, 09:03:33 AM
I feel for ya, Tower. My parents apparently get their medical news from right-wing Catholic sources who ran with the "made with real aborted fetus!" story about the vaccine, and now they refuse to take it.
Oh, and dad's a immunocompromised transplant recipient.
Everything happens so fast today. I can see it in business just over the 20 years I have been involved in economic cycles, etc. I wonder if some of this is a symptom of people just trying to keep up. In some ways its easier to believe false-hoods than wrap your mind around the amazing progress that has occurred.
At home tests now approved results in 20 minutes. I know the accuracy will not be 100% but I think this is what we have needed. Sure some will feel sick take a test and it is negative and then go about their business.
Quote from: injuryBug on December 16, 2020, 10:16:31 AM
At home tests now approved results in 20 minutes. I know the accuracy will not be 100% but I think this is what we have needed. Sure some will feel sick take a test and it is negative and then go about their business.
Which isn't a very good idea right now. If you feel sick, call your doctor, and get tested.
People shouldn't be "going about their business" if they are sick anyway, regardless of Covid or not.
Last Friday, my 14 year old woke up with a sore throat. Poop. At our airport, they opened a quick test drive through, ostensibly for anyone who wants to fly. Went out there, got the test (paid $75 out of my pocket), by the time we got back home, the e-mail had arrived saying he was negative. Called the school, told them what we had done, and asked if they minded if he came in with a sore throat. They said no and he was at school by 9:30.
Quote from: shoothoops on December 16, 2020, 08:24:12 AM
Chief of Critical Care at United Memorial Medical Center in Houston, said more than 50% of his nursing staff does not want to get the Coronavirus vaccine. When he asked them why, the reasons were political:
It's towards the end of the 6 minutes.
https://twitter.com/BrandyZadrozny/status/1339182966082310144?s=19
Nurses are often required to get other vaccines, including an annual flu shot.
I don't know why they would make an exception for the Covid vaccine. I think a hospital would be perfectly within their rights to suspend nurses and other medical personnel pending proof of vaccination.
The insanity of letting politics of either persuasion stopping people from getting vaccinated boggles my mind. Perhaps there is a lesson in this for everyone going forward about the long term ramifications of political tribalism, but I fear it's a message people don't want to hear.
I'm in healthcare and have routinely explained to patients, family, friends, whoever that this only ends when enough people have immunity, albeit natural or acquired. So if you want to get out of this dystopian universe quicker, when it's your turn, get the vaccine. It's the simplest way to put it.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 16, 2020, 10:30:44 AM
Which isn't a very good idea right now. If you feel sick, call your doctor, and get tested.
People shouldn't be "going about their business" if they are sick anyway, regardless of Covid or not.
exactly, it will be interesting the impact at home testing has on things going forward. How does it impact quarantine for close contact?
Quote from: Warrior2008 on December 16, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
The insanity of letting politics of either persuasion stopping people from getting vaccinated boggles my mind. Perhaps there is a lesson in this for everyone going forward about the long term ramifications of political tribalism, but I fear it's a message people don't want to hear.
I'm in healthcare and have routinely explained to patients, family, friends, whoever that this only ends when enough people have immunity, albeit natural or acquired. So if you want to get out of this dystopian universe quicker, when it's your turn, get the vaccine. It's the simplest way to put it.
I feel that the attempted regulatory capture of the CDC led to valid concerns about whether a vaccine would be approved too early. If politicians had stayed out of the CDC then the anti-vax movement would be the only people concerned about getting vaccinated.
Quote from: Warrior2008 on December 16, 2020, 10:57:42 AM
The insanity of letting politics of either persuasion stopping people from getting vaccinated boggles my mind. Perhaps there is a lesson in this for everyone going forward about the long term ramifications of political tribalism, but I fear it's a message people don't want to hear.
I'm in healthcare and have routinely explained to patients, family, friends, whoever that this only ends when enough people have immunity, albeit natural or acquired. So if you want to get out of this dystopian universe quicker, when it's your turn, get the vaccine. It's the simplest way to put it.
Completely agree. The internet is not always your friend. Seems like doubling down on dumb.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 16, 2020, 10:57:32 AM
Nurses are often required to get other vaccines, including an annual flu shot.
I don't know why they would make an exception for the Covid vaccine. I think a hospital would be perfectly within their rights to suspend nurses and other medical personnel pending proof of vaccination.
Not exactly. Nothing is "required" pending your reason for exemption.
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?
No. You should definitely fear the virus more.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 12:22:55 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?
The physician that licenses my mom's medispa has said there could be some concern regarding infertility in women from Pfizer's something about synthesizing some natural protein always has the potential of causing issues. That being said we've seen enough physicians look foolish during this that is take it will a grain of salt
I'm 66. I'll take my chances with a long-term effect versus getting Covid.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 12:22:55 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?
No
Quote from: injuryBug on December 16, 2020, 10:59:41 AM
exactly, it will be interesting the impact at home testing has on things going forward. How does it impact quarantine for close contact?
I saw a news story that indicated rollout in the US will take some time. According to the story, the test probably won't be widely available in the US until sometime in the spring. By then, a pretty good percentage of folks who want a vaccine will have had a chance to get one. And the people who have chosen not to get one probably don't care much about their test result....
So yeah - it might impact numbers and quarantining a bit, but not nearly as much as if you could buy it at Walgreens today.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 16, 2020, 09:03:33 AM
I feel for ya, Tower. My parents apparently get their medical news from right-wing Catholic sources who ran with the "made with real aborted fetus!" story about the vaccine, and now they refuse to take it.
Oh, and dad's a immunocompromised transplant recipient.
Show this to your mom.
https://twitter.com/CatholicRGV/status/1338995144654123010?s=20
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 12:22:55 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?
Actually I am a little, yeah. Probably more out of suspicious predisposition than anything. But this virus is ravaging the planet, and the only way to stop it will be for everyone to get this vaccine. So I just don't think my vague distrust of pharma and our political instututions is a valid reason to not roll up my sleeve.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 12:22:55 PM
So, does anyone have any concerns about long-term safety of this vaccine? Either version?
I always have concerns when I take something new, and these vaccines are no different.
But given the huge risks of Covid (even for people who survive), it's a chance I am more than willing to take.
Another dumb question. Should I expect my healthcare to provider to contact me when a vaccine is available to me? Or should I reach out to them to let them know I'd be interested after it was sufficiently offered to higher-risk groups?
Found this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/kdm82i/askscience_ama_series_got_questions_about/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Good answers here. Generally, the answer on long term safety/side effects is theorized as minimal, but we just don't know.
I am more likely to seek out the Moderna version just based on their safety monitoring during trials
Quote from: BM1090 on December 16, 2020, 01:30:47 PM
Another dumb question. Should I expect my healthcare to provider to contact me when a vaccine is available to me? Or should I reach out to them to let them know I'd be interested after it was sufficiently offered to higher-risk groups?
Was chatting about that with my wife this AM. It's easy to tell hospital workers and long term senior facilities when their vaccines are ready, but I don't think states have figured out how to notify the general public yet (and keep it orderly).
I'm imagining "Last names beginning with G can begin to go on <day>". But who knows. This is going to be an adventure in tracking which doses are "first" and "second" and "whoops, we were supposed to save that case for second doses???".
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 16, 2020, 02:31:08 PM
Was chatting about that with my wife this AM. It's easy to tell hospital workers and long term senior facilities when their vaccines are ready, but I don't think states have figured out how to notify the general public yet (and keep it orderly).
I'm imagining "Last names beginning with G can begin to go on <day>". But who knows. This is going to be an adventure in tracking which doses are "first" and "second" and "whoops, we were supposed to save that case for second doses???".
That, plus not everyone who's "at risk" is in a long term care facility.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 16, 2020, 02:31:08 PM
Was chatting about that with my wife this AM. It's easy to tell hospital workers and long term senior facilities when their vaccines are ready, but I don't think states have figured out how to notify the general public yet (and keep it orderly).
I'm imagining "Last names beginning with G can begin to go on <day>". But who knows. This is going to be an adventure in tracking which doses are "first" and "second" and "whoops, we were supposed to save that case for second doses???".
Using Wisconsin as an example and listening to the WI DHS discuss this today on their teleconference, the priority has been rightly placed on healthcare workers with daily direct covid exposure and nursing homes. From what I can tell, those groups seem to have a somewhat clear plan over the course of the next month or two. After that, the rest of the state's 1a group is basically the entirety of the healthcare field from doctors, to dentists, to PTs, to medical transport. Its roughly 400k people and as of today, there doesn't seem to be a clear plan for vaccinating this group. That's not be alarmist, but depending on how this group has their vaccines delivered should tell the public what to expect on how it will have its vaccines administered.
Lake County in Illinois has a registration program of some sort, MU alum Steve Bertrand mentioned it I think yesterday on the radio.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 01:53:44 PM
Found this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/kdm82i/askscience_ama_series_got_questions_about/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Good answers here. Generally, the answer on long term safety/side effects is theorized as minimal, but we just don't know.
I am more likely to seek out the Moderna version just based on their safety monitoring during trials
What safety monitoring information are you referring to? Most of the information I have seen indicates that side effects are slightly more common and serious with the Moderna vaccine:
https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-comparison-how-the-shots-compare-2020-12
Pfizer: Compared to Moderna's shot, there were fewer reports of pain, fatigue, and headaches in Pfizer's vaccine trials. The most common side effects were injection site pain (84%), fatigue (63%), and headache (55%). Severe side effects after the second dose happened with less frequency than Moderna's trial, with the highest rates among volunteers under 55 years old: 5% recorded severe fatigue, 3% had severe headaches, 2% had severe chills, and 2% had new or worsened muscle pain.
Moderna: More than nine in 10 people registered some level of side effects, with most being mild or moderate. The most common reactions were injection site pain (92%), fatigue (69%), headache (63%), and muscle pain (60%). Younger participants recorded more side effects. Among volunteers ages 18-64, nearly 1 in 5 had a severe reaction after the second booster dose.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 16, 2020, 04:31:15 PM
What safety monitoring information are you referring to? Most of the information I have seen indicates that side effects are slightly more common and serious with the Moderna vaccine:
https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-comparison-how-the-shots-compare-2020-12
Pfizer: Compared to Moderna's shot, there were fewer reports of pain, fatigue, and headaches in Pfizer's vaccine trials. The most common side effects were injection site pain (84%), fatigue (63%), and headache (55%). Severe side effects after the second dose happened with less frequency than Moderna's trial, with the highest rates among volunteers under 55 years old: 5% recorded severe fatigue, 3% had severe headaches, 2% had severe chills, and 2% had new or worsened muscle pain.
Moderna: More than nine in 10 people registered some level of side effects, with most being mild or moderate. The most common reactions were injection site pain (92%), fatigue (69%), headache (63%), and muscle pain (60%). Younger participants recorded more side effects. Among volunteers ages 18-64, nearly 1 in 5 had a severe reaction after the second booster dose.
This is from the reddit thread:
QuoteThey are similar in the technology of mRNA for S protein production as the immunogen. They differ in the amount required of their formulation and in the temperature for storage. Moderna had more of a range of people in the study and followed them more closely from the time of enrollment. Pfizer had participants keep an e-diary and to self-report if they had symptoms.
Chick Jr just texted me that since it has been fewer than 90 days since she contracted Covid-19, she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital.
She is okay with that; she thinks that folks that have no antibodies at all should go ahead of her.
"she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital"
I assume that means she is currently ineligible to receive it with the supplies the have, but will still get one before most of us.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 16, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Chick Jr just texted me that since it has been fewer than 90 days since she contracted Covid-19, she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital.
She is okay with that; she thinks that folks that have no antibodies at all should go ahead of her.
I have the option, but I am going to go to the back of the line.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 06:19:34 PM
This is from the reddit thread:
Perhaps I missed it, but I still don't see where it says that Moderna's vaccine has fewer side effects. All I see is that they monitored them differently. But having been involved with the oversight clinical trials for a couple of decades, both methods are very common and widely accepted and I don't necessarily see one as "better" or "worse" than the other.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 16, 2020, 07:31:46 PM
"she is ineligible to receive the vaccination at her hospital"
I assume that means she is currently ineligible to receive it with the supplies the have, but will still get one before most of us.
I assume so. She will be 90 days out from her diagnosis in late February.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 16, 2020, 08:12:17 PM
I assume so. She will be 90 days out from her diagnosis in late February.
Hah, I only interpret the 90 days as a line in the sand in terms of determining eligibility - not that she has to wait 90 days. More like she'll be in the tier of hospital workers that includes those with possible antibodies already (whenever that is). But keep us updated - it's interesting (to me) to follow the vaccine rollout.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 16, 2020, 08:12:17 PM
I assume so. She will be 90 days out from her diagnosis in late February.
I don't believe there is safety data on people recently infected with COVID. So the guidance on vaccine states that those recently infected should wait.
I know I had heard previously at least 1 month post recovery, maybe it is actually 90 days.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 16, 2020, 07:44:53 PM
Perhaps I missed it, but I still don't see where it says that Moderna's vaccine has fewer side effects. All I see is that they monitored them differently. But having been involved with the oversight clinical trials for a couple of decades, both methods are very common and widely accepted and I don't necessarily see one as "better" or "worse" than the other.
You asked me to clarify what I initially said with regards to safety monitoring.
I never said anything about the % or severity of side effects
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 16, 2020, 09:58:29 PM
You asked me to clarify what I initially said with regards to safety monitoring.
I never said anything about the % or severity of side effects
So even though there is a higher incidence of side effects, you want their vaccine because they used a different process?
Just trying to understand.
trump already screwing up the vaccine. Should we be surprised?
Millions of doses of the COVID-19 vaccine are languishing in warehouses awaiting shipment instructions from the Trump administration — even as states are clamoring for them — vaccine manufacturer Pzifer said in a statement Thursday.
The startling bottleneck is occurring as America is breaking daily COVID-19 death tolls. The U.S. lost more people on Wednesday alone (3,611) than the number of people who died on 9/11.
Officials in several states said they were told Wednesday that their second shipments of Pfizer-BioNTech's vaccine next week has been mysteriously reduced, CNN reported. That triggered fears by states that the Trump administration may be incapable of hitting the target of delivering enough vaccine doses for 20 million injections by the end of the year. A source told The Washington Post that Pfizer executives were "baffled" that the Trump administration wasn't immediately shipping out all of the vaccine.
Pfizer defended itself amid the rising fears about vaccine delivery, noting that it has no production problems — and has doses ready to go.
"This week, we successfully shipped all 2.9 million doses that we were asked to ship by the U.S. Government to the locations specified by them," Pzifer said in its statement. "We have millions more doses sitting in our warehouse but, as of now, we have not received any shipment instructions for additional doses," the company added.
Pence gets vaccine.
It only took 9 months for one member of the Trump Administration to finally be a decent role model one time regarding COVID-19.
Now ... resume planning the Super-Spreader Xmas parties!
Quote from: MU82 on December 18, 2020, 07:33:08 AM
Pence gets vaccine.
It only took 9 months for one member of the Trump Administration to finally be a decent role model one time regarding COVID-19.
Now ... resume planning the Super-Spreader Xmas parties!
To be fair, Pence is about the only person in the administration who doesn't have antibodies, and will need the vaccine. ;D
Pence wasn't listening to Tucker Carlson, who told his viewing audience to not trust the vaccines.
Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-doses.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Interesting opinion piece in the NYT. It proposes a single-dose trial among young, healthy frontline workers to see if a single dose provides sufficient protection.
But to me, the more tantalizing answer actually lies buried in the article, almost as an afterthought: There is no 'magic timeframe' for giving the second dose, and we might get the same ~95% efficacy if we lengthen the time to the booster shot. The 21-day and 28-day timeframes in the Pfizer and Moderna trials were just guesses...and likely chosen so they could finish the studies more quickly. If we changed those timeframes, it's quite plausible the protection for the first shot would still exist for a few months...thus freeing up more shots for people to get their initial vaccinations now.
Not the most scientific approach, and I seriously doubt they'll change anything at this point, but an interesting possibility given the extreme situation we're living through.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 08:46:59 AM
Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-doses.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Interesting opinion piece in the NYT. It proposes a single-dose trial among young, healthy frontline workers to see if a single dose provides sufficient protection.
But to me, the more tantalizing answer actually lies buried in the article, almost as an afterthought: There is no 'magic timeframe' for giving the second dose, and we might get the same ~95% efficacy if we lengthen the time to the booster shot. The 21-day and 28-day timeframes in the Pfizer and Moderna trials were just guesses...and likely chosen so they could finish the studies more quickly. If we changed those timeframes, it's quite plausible the protection for the first shot would still exist for a few months...thus freeing up more shots for people to get their initial vaccinations now.
Not the most scientific approach, and I seriously doubt they'll change anything at this point, but an interesting possibility given the extreme situation we're living through.
I was thinking of something similar to this. A couple ways to get to a "herd" immunity faster.
1. Estimates say that the actual number the have been infected is closer to 60M (I don't think it is nearly this high, but the fact remains that a lot have been infected and don't know). Those already have some level of immunity. If we could screen those to be vaccinated with rapid antibody tests first, and only give vaccines to those without antibodies we could vaccinate more faster.
2. For those that are young, and otherwise healthy. Give 1 dose. I believe the Moderna vaccine proved to be ~70% effective with a single dose. Prioritize the Moderna vaccine to that group.
3. Possibly, in general give everyone 1-dose. The actual studies showed 50-70% efficacy after one dose, and decreased severity in general. Although not perfect, this will drastically decrease the hospital burden, and save more lives. Possibly only give 2-dose regimes to nursing home/high-risk elderly.
4. Quit prioritizing work-from-home medical staff.
If it were me, I would just try to execute the plan rather than getting creative. We have a hard enough time with the simple things.
A potential kick in the groin for Michiganians.
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/12/pfas-exposure-may-reduce-covid-19-vaccine-potency-experts-warn.html
PFAS exposure may reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine.
https://twitter.com/Emaperidol/status/1339224471731843073
QuoteMy boyfriend got his covid vaccine yesterday and I can tell you the most prominent side effect is the inability to shut up about getting the covid vaccine
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 10:19:44 AM
A potential kick in the groin for Michiganians.
https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/12/pfas-exposure-may-reduce-covid-19-vaccine-potency-experts-warn.html
PFAS exposure may reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine.
Great, we have a bunch of them here too.
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1339704802964615168?s=19
Quote from: forgetful on December 18, 2020, 09:40:58 AM
I was thinking of something similar to this. A couple ways to get to a "herd" immunity faster.
1. Estimates say that the actual number the have been infected is closer to 60M (I don't think it is nearly this high, but the fact remains that a lot have been infected and don't know). Those already have some level of immunity. If we could screen those to be vaccinated with rapid antibody tests first, and only give vaccines to those without antibodies we could vaccinate more faster.
2. For those that are young, and otherwise healthy. Give 1 dose. I believe the Moderna vaccine proved to be ~70% effective with a single dose. Prioritize the Moderna vaccine to that group.
3. Possibly, in general give everyone 1-dose. The actual studies showed 50-70% efficacy after one dose, and decreased severity in general. Although not perfect, this will drastically decrease the hospital burden, and save more lives. Possibly only give 2-dose regimes to nursing home/high-risk elderly.
4. Quit prioritizing work-from-home medical staff.
The other alternative: Start with one dose until everybody who wants one gets it...then move on to the second dose, whether it's three months or a year later. It gets one shot in everybody's arm faster, but doesn't eliminate the added boost from the second shot.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2020, 08:46:59 AM
Can We Do Twice as Many Vaccinations as We Thought?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-doses.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Interesting opinion piece in the NYT. It proposes a single-dose trial among young, healthy frontline workers to see if a single dose provides sufficient protection.
But to me, the more tantalizing answer actually lies buried in the article, almost as an afterthought: There is no 'magic timeframe' for giving the second dose, and we might get the same ~95% efficacy if we lengthen the time to the booster shot. The 21-day and 28-day timeframes in the Pfizer and Moderna trials were just guesses...and likely chosen so they could finish the studies more quickly. If we changed those timeframes, it's quite plausible the protection for the first shot would still exist for a few months...thus freeing up more shots for people to get their initial vaccinations now.
Not the most scientific approach, and I seriously doubt they'll change anything at this point, but an interesting possibility given the extreme situation we're living through.
The confidence interval on the low end of 1 dose of Pfizer was 28%? effective. Too low.
I work in Madison, at one of the three main hospitals. Hospital A is affiliated with the university who thinks they are good at basketball. Hospital B is us, who are "partners" of hospital A. Hospital C is down the street. Madison got vaccines on Tuesday.
Hospital A is vaccinating their top two tiers.
Hospital C is vaccinating every employee.
Hospital B has no vaccines and no idea when they are getting them.
Hospital A's Covid population has been around 65-70.
Hospital B's Covid population has been around 50-60 (a majority of which have come from Hospital A).
Hospital C's Covid population has been around 30-40.
We were told Hospital B didn't get initial vaccines because they didn't have as many employees.
AMERICA!!!
Quote from: MUDPT on December 18, 2020, 12:36:06 PM
The confidence interval on the low end of 1 dose of Pfizer was 28%? effective. Too low.
Agreed. That's why I think we should stick with 2 doses, but just split them a little further apart. The difference between 21 days and 3 months is likely to be inconsequential, and would help us to return to a semblance of normalcy more quickly.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2020, 11:12:38 AM
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1339704802964615168?s=19
As I have said here often, cruelty IS the point.
By withholding the vaccine, they are choosing to kill people. Sounds like murder to me.
Quote from: MUDPT on December 18, 2020, 12:42:17 PM
I work in Madison, at one of the three main hospitals. Hospital A is affiliated with the university who thinks they are good at basketball. Hospital B is us, who are "partners" of hospital A. Hospital C is down the street. Madison got vaccines on Tuesday.
Hospital A is vaccinating their top two tiers.
Hospital C is vaccinating every employee.
Hospital B has no vaccines and no idea when they are getting them.
Hospital A's Covid population has been around 65-70.
Hospital B's Covid population has been around 50-60 (a majority of which have come from Hospital A).
Hospital C's Covid population has been around 30-40.
We were told Hospital B didn't get initial vaccines because they didn't have as many employees.
AMERICA!!!
Eye'd recommend quittin' B and gettin' a gig @ A. America, aina?
Quote from: MUDPT on December 18, 2020, 12:42:17 PM
I work in Madison, at one of the three main hospitals. Hospital A is affiliated with the university who thinks they are good at basketball. Hospital B is us, who are "partners" of hospital A. Hospital C is down the street. Madison got vaccines on Tuesday.
Hospital A is vaccinating their top two tiers.
Hospital C is vaccinating every employee.
Hospital B has no vaccines and no idea when they are getting them.
Hospital A's Covid population has been around 65-70.
Hospital B's Covid population has been around 50-60 (a majority of which have come from Hospital A).
Hospital C's Covid population has been around 30-40.
We were told Hospital B didn't get initial vaccines because they didn't have as many employees.
AMERICA!!!
A = UW Hospital
B = Meriter
C = SSM Health
Pretty obvious.
Just received mine. Pfizer.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2020, 04:19:17 PM
Just received mine. Pfizer.
I think you're the first here. Hope it goes uneventfully.
Eye'm jellus. If ya score sum xtra Pfizer or Moderna, help a bro out, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 18, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Eye'm jellus. If ya score sum xtra Pfizer or Moderna, help a bro out, hey?
Even though you aren't a first responder or ER or ICU provider, it would seem a dentist oughta be pretty high on the list. Any idea what level of priority you have?
1A in Wisconsin, hey?
FDA just officially approved Moderna vaccine for emergency use.
Facilities should begin receiving doses by Monday.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 18, 2020, 01:54:18 PM
A = UW Hospital
B = Meriter
C = SSM Health
Pretty obvious.
Bingo. A keeps sending positives to B, where no vaccinated workers work.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/us/covid-vaccine-wealthy-california-patients/index.html
And then there's these entitled people.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 07:51:33 AM
Pence wasn't listening to Tucker Carlson, who told his viewing audience to not trust the vaccines.
From today's AP article ...
Pence didn't flinch during the quick prick, nor did his wife, Karen ... ... who is used to her husband's quick prick.
vaccine drive immunity on top of illness driven immunity topic.
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1339998897498775552?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1339998897498775552?s=21)
Can't get the vaccine quick enough, being 10 inches from people's grills and such all day, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2020, 10:54:06 AM
Can't get the vaccine quick enough, being 10 inches from people's grills and such all day, aina?
That's very close, get your eyes checked?
To do well what you see, you must see well what you do, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2020, 11:46:59 AM
To do well what you see, you must see well what you do, aina?
ADA/WDA says dental and support personnel will be front of the line
gotta love pfizer though-they have a drug(that little blue vitamin) that "raises" something from the dead and now, hopefully one that can save one from death
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people?? have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet? didn't think so. she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk. all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries. stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 20, 2020, 06:17:03 PM
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people?? have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet? didn't think so. she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk. all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries. stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple
You realize that all members of Congress are getting it right? Even those who denied it was a big deal just a few months ago.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 20, 2020, 06:17:03 PM
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people?? have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet? didn't think so. she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk. all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries. stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple
All politicians should get it after health care personnel and other essential people
Anyone know if Waukesha Memorial has gotten vaccines yet? If not, means 3 out of the top 6 with COVID+ patients in Wisconsin did not get vaccines yet.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 20, 2020, 06:17:03 PM
so AOC gets vaccine before many other "more essential" people?? have all the doc, nurses and other front line health care workers received it yet? didn't think so. she is not only NOT essential, but in an age group that is less at risk. all she has to do is what cuomo says and no worries. stay home, wash your hands and wear a mask...simple
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm in the camp that everyone in congress and the white house (incoming and outgoing) should get it because we want a functioning government - and lets face it - several in government are old enough to be "at risk". So AOC should get it for the exact same reason everyone in congress should continue to wear a mask.
Plus, if they all are vaccinated no reason they can't be back in session working for us in 28 days!
Now, i also want a functioning healthcare system - so yes, lines need to be drawn for our priorities, but federal government will probably receive far less than 1% of the initial 20 million doses (200k would be 1%). If it's significantly over that - we should be scrutinizing where things are going.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 20, 2020, 06:20:10 PM
You realize that all members of Congress are getting it right? Even those who denied it was a big deal just a few months ago.
He does not realize that, no.
Quote from: BLM on December 20, 2020, 06:26:11 PM
He does not realize that, no.
I would actually bet he does know it
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 20, 2020, 06:27:40 PM
I would actually bet he does know it
Nah. People read a headline, irrationally react and make a fool of themselves, then get the information that's easily available to everyone and go in hiding.
Quote from: BLM on December 20, 2020, 06:30:39 PM
Nah. People read a headline, irrationally react and make a fool of themselves, then get the information that's easily available to everyone and go in hiding.
I've read that part - but are there any congress idiots rejecting a vaccine?
AOC definitely needs a shot..., hey?
That's ok, rocket, I had the exact same thought about Pence and Mrs. Pence.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 20, 2020, 06:20:10 PM
You realize that all members of Congress are getting it right? Even those who denied it was a big deal just a few months ago.
Fox didn't tell him that, so how could he possibly know?
Pavlov (Fox) has trained the dogs to slaver when the AOC bell is rung, that's as far as their "thinking" goes.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 20, 2020, 07:49:05 PM
Fox didn't tell him that, so how could he possibly know?
Pavlov (Fox) has trained the dogs to slaver when the AOC bell is rung, that's as far as their "thinking" goes.
I'm all for making fun of news sources, but fox actually covered the fact that Congress is getting them:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/aoc-coronavirus-vaccine-social-media-congress-pfizer
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 20, 2020, 07:29:40 PM
AOC definitely needs a shot..., hey?
Didn't think AOC was your type of gal.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 20, 2020, 06:24:45 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm in the camp that everyone in congress and the white house (incoming and outgoing) should get it because we want a functioning government - and lets face it - several in government are old enough to be "at risk". So AOC should get it for the exact same reason everyone in congress should continue to wear a mask.
Plus, if they all are vaccinated no reason they can't be back in session working for us in 28 days!
Now, i also want a functioning healthcare system - so yes, lines need to be drawn for our priorities, but federal government will probably receive far less than 1% of the initial 20 million doses (200k would be 1%). If it's significantly over that - we should be scrutinizing where things are going.
i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking. initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics. showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 20, 2020, 08:45:14 PM
i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking. initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics. showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families.
Agree, just after the essential workers who are begging for one and have been "in the face" of COVID patient since April (like me).
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 20, 2020, 08:45:14 PM
i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking. initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics. showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families.
So did you make your original post while knowing all of congress was receiving the vaccine?
The good news is that there isn't a single file line so this is all seriously silly.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 20, 2020, 08:45:14 PM
i respect the most level headed response here-also got me to thinking. initially there were many irresponsible responses based solely on partisan politics. showing ones favorite pol endorsing and getting it will hopefully quell the fears of those who want to get it for themselves and their families.
So let's see...
1) You don't want to own up to the fact that you had no idea what you were talking about, per usual
2) You harped on AOC, but it it was
other people's partisan politics that were to blame.
Just..... f'ing..... stop. Get the vaccine.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 21, 2020, 07:36:05 AM
So let's see...
1) You don't want to own up to the fact that you had no idea what you were talking about, per usual
2) You harped on AOC, but it it was other people's partisan politics that were to blame.
rocket being rocket per usual.
Lighten up guys.
Low hanging fruit.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 20, 2020, 06:32:54 PM
I've read that part - but are there any congress idiots rejecting a vaccine?
One that should turn a few people into a pretzel.
Quote from: BLM on December 20, 2020, 06:30:39 PM
Nah. People read a headline, irrationally react and make a fool of themselves, then get the information that's easily available to everyone and go in hiding.
"...go in hiding." ?? umm, no. so many of the responses are not worth dignifying and certainly not worth the bump.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 21, 2020, 08:13:29 PM
"...go in hiding." ?? umm, no. so many of the responses are not worth dignifying and certainly not worth the bump.
Dude you routinely are shown to parrot certain news sources that are easily debunked. We can't help that you've lost your dignity as well.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 21, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
One that should turn a few people into a pretzel.
Are you referring to this?
https://www.businessinsider.com/ilhan-omar-wont-get-covid-19-vaccine-immediately-2020-12
Vatican OKs Receiving COVID-19 Vaccines, Even If Research Involved Fetal Tissue
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/12/21/948806643/vatican-oks-receiving-covid-19-vaccines-even-if-research-involved-fetal-tissue
The Vatican says that it's "morally acceptable" to receive a vaccination for COVID-19, even if the vaccine's research or production involved using cell lines derived from aborted fetuses, given the "grave danger" of the pandemic.
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office charged with promoting and defending church morals and traditions, said in a document released Monday that "when ethically irreproachable Covid-19 vaccines are not available ... it is morally acceptable to receive Covid-19 vaccines that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses in their research and production process."
Pope Francis approved the text on Thursday, Vatican News reported.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 21, 2020, 08:24:59 PM
Dude you routinely are shown to parrot certain news sources that are easily debunked. We can't help that you've lost your dignity as well.
what makes you and your cabal of sycophants think you are right? i have a viewpoint, you have yours. right/wrong? so what are you to debunk? AOC got the vaccine, right? my point was for her to advertise it, was beneficial only in that it may remove some of the political stigma they previously attached to it. as for AOC and the rest of the pols to be getting it before many other "more essential" people? many on both sides of the aisle felt they should be allowing other more essential people to get the vaccine before them. who's wrong? what do you think...or, what have your such reliable sources told you to think?
so tell me wise one, what are the sanctified "news sources" we all need to be enlightened by? you know, the ones that aren't so "easily debunked". i know who your sources are, and they've been factually wrong and/or inconsistent as much as any, depending on your viewpoint of course. things can be spun many ways.
if i've lost my dignity in the eyes of "your people" then i know that i must doing alright-thank you for that
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 22, 2020, 08:44:19 AM
what makes you and your cabal of sycophants think you are right? i have a viewpoint, you have yours. right/wrong? so what are you to debunk? AOC got the vaccine, right? my point was for her to advertise it, was beneficial only in that it may remove some of the political stigma they previously attached to it. as for AOC and the rest of the pols to be getting it before many other "more essential" people? many on both sides of the aisle felt they should be allowing other more essential people to get the vaccine before them. who's wrong? what do you think...or, what have your such reliable sources told you to think?
so tell me wise one, what are the sanctified "news sources" we all need to be enlightened by? you know, the ones that aren't so "easily debunked". i know who your sources are, and they've been factually wrong and/or inconsistent as much as any, depending on your viewpoint of course. things can be spun many ways.
if i've lost my dignity in the eyes of "your people" then i know that i must doing alright-thank you for that
Where was your faux outrage when Pence got the vaccine?
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket. I know he said something, which he said he thought about more... but maybe when someone regrets their previous stance we should be more encouraging rather than stepping on their neck. We all knew what response it would elicit.
Something we could all do better on this board is saying, "yep I was wrong" and then people letting that be.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 22, 2020, 08:52:36 AM
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket. I know he said something, which he said he thought about more... but maybe when someone regrets their previous stance we should be more encouraging rather than stepping on their neck. We all knew what response it would elicit.
Something we could all do better on this board is saying, "yep I was wrong" and then people letting that be.
You're wrong!
(yep I was wrong to say that)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 22, 2020, 08:52:36 AM
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket. I know he said something, which he said he thought about more... but maybe when someone regrets their previous stance we should be more encouraging rather than stepping on their neck. We all knew what response it would elicit.
Something we could all do better on this board is saying, "yep I was wrong" and then people letting that be.
Only if he admits he didn't know all politicians were getting the vaccine before he posted about AOC. Which he didn't do
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 22, 2020, 11:27:03 AM
Only if he admits he didn't know all politicians were getting the vaccine before he posted about AOC. Which he didn't do
Are all politicians going to the head of the line to get the vaccine? It's true they're eligible, but aren't some of them showing a bit of principle and waiting for their age group to be called?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2020, 07:03:53 PM
Are all politicians going to the head of the line to get the vaccine? It's true they're eligible, but aren't some of them showing a bit of principle and waiting for their age group to be called?
Is that really "showing a bit of principle?" I mean, I have a heart condition that I don't consider to be serious (nor does my doctor), but it puts me in the "at risk" category, which bumps me up past a lot of people who are more than likely more "at risk" than I am. I'll be able to get it before my parents, who are both in their 60s (but neither have health risks). They're probably overall more "at risk" than I am. But I'm not going to pass on getting the vaccine when I first can. If I could take one of them in and say, "I'm passing my vaccine along to them!" Sure I'd do that. But that's not really how it works. And by getting vaccinated when I can, I'm making those around me safer.
Getting vaccinated when you can IS "showing a bit of principle."
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?
Quote from: warriorchick on December 22, 2020, 08:05:19 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?
She's part of a group where all members have access regardless of "at-risk" variables.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 22, 2020, 08:05:19 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?
Stupidity, Marxist-Leninist, Anti-American, Anti- Semitic, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 22, 2020, 08:21:56 PM
Stupidity, Marxist-Leninist, Anti-American, Anti- Semitic, hey?
What is the point of this.
AOC? Rubio? Others.
What about Ohmar. Or others. What do you label them.
Weird.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 22, 2020, 08:05:19 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but hey, I'm JUST ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT STUFF I HAVENT READ ABOUT.
Not weird, considering the source, ai'na?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 22, 2020, 08:26:55 PM
What is the point of this.
AOC? Rubio? Others.
What about Ohmar. Or others. What do you label them.
Weird.
What's ironic is that his words say way more about him than about AOC.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 22, 2020, 08:06:40 PM
She's part of a group where all members have access regardless of "at-risk" variables.
435 + 100 members
Quote from: warriorchick on December 22, 2020, 08:05:19 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?
Congress, government, get your ass back to the damn office and do some work for us group!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
For month Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their supporters banged the drum: "Don't trust the vaccine that's coming! It's the 'Trump Vaccine' - it is political, not based in science! I wouldn't take it, it's too dangerous!!
Now that the election is over, of course they're changing the tune. The damage to public confidence, though, has been done. As Reverend Wright was fond of saying, "The chickens have come home to roost!"
So Democrats are responsible for undermining the trust in vaccines...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 22, 2020, 07:03:53 PM
Are all politicians going to the head of the line to get the vaccine? It's true they're eligible, but aren't some of them showing a bit of principle and waiting for their age group to be called?
Ohh...I get it now, it was the long play. Undermine public trust so you can get it first! Wait. That's not what you were saying.
Are they restoring public trust? Or stealing vaccines?
As you know, my opinion is all of congress and white house (incoming and outgoing for both) should get it so we can have a continuation of government, and they get be back in session face to face in Jan.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 22, 2020, 08:21:56 PM
Stupidity, Marxist-Leninist, Anti-American, Anti- Semitic, hey?
Always on brand, aren't ya, big boy.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 22, 2020, 08:52:36 AM
It'd be nice if we stopped pushing down rocket.
He routinely posts bullsh*t that's easily swatted down. If he doesn't want to be "pushed down," he should post stuff that is more than a simple talking point.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 22, 2020, 08:05:19 PM
I haven't read all of the news articles about it, but what condition does AOC have that puts her in the front of the line?
"I am going to reach up on this issue, but decided to ask a politically loaded question on a board instead."
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 22, 2020, 08:44:19 AM
what makes you and your cabal of sycophants think you are right? i have a viewpoint, you have yours.
A viewpoint? You posted something pavlovian about AOC without understanding that every member of Congress was offered the shot. Some have said yes, others have said no. I mean, Kevin McCarthy got it as well. Why aren't you mocking him "going to the front of the line?"
That's not a viewpoint. That is an accurate fact. But instead of doing a bit of Googling and reading to understand more of the issue, you post something parroted elsewhere, then pass it off as "fact" or a "viewpoint."
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 22, 2020, 11:05:57 PM
As you know, my opinion is all of congress and white house (incoming and outgoing for both) should get it so we can have a continuation of government, and they get be back in session face to face in Jan.
Agree completely. Every member of Congress, the White House, and other high-level governmental employees (federal AND state) should be in the first wave with front-line providers.
To me, the reason is twofold: (1) to get back to the day-to-day running of our country ASAP, and (2) to serve our national security interests, as healthy leaders are essential to crisis management.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 23, 2020, 08:36:39 AM
Agree completely. Every member of Congress, the White House, and other high-level governmental employees (federal AND state) should be in the first wave with front-line providers.
To me, the reason is twofold: (1) to get back to the day-to-day running of our country ASAP, and (2) to serve our national security interests, as healthy leaders are essential to crisis management.
And (3) we don't need anymore confusion or "room for opinion" on whether to take the vaccine or when is the most moral time to take the vaccine. Regardless of intention, anyone in leadership not taking the vaccine immediately when offered clouds what should be unanimous messaging for their own political gain and to the detriment of the country.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 23, 2020, 09:27:01 AM
And (3) we don't need anymore confusion or "room for opinion" on whether to take the vaccine or when is the most moral time to take the vaccine. Regardless of intention, anyone in leadership not taking the vaccine immediately when offered clouds what should be unanimous messaging for their own political gain and to the detriment of the country.
This is where I am at. I'm even more concerned if any go down the antivax talking points or now create a brand new lens to judge people.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 23, 2020, 10:04:10 AM
This is where I am at. I'm even more concerned if any go down the antivax talking points or now create a brand new lens to judge people.
Exactly. If my health care provider calls me tomorrow and says I am eligible to take the vaccine, I am not going to engage in some moral back and forth about whether or not I am worthy at this point in time. I am going to take it because I trust the process and by taking it I am helping society recover.
But no. Instead of being seen as progress for the sake of the common good, it's been politicized.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 23, 2020, 10:08:11 AM
Exactly. If my health care provider calls me tomorrow and says I am eligible to take the vaccine, I am not going to engage in some moral back and forth about whether or not I am worthy at this point in time. I am going to take it because I trust the process and by taking it I am helping society recover.
But no. Instead of being seen as progress for the sake of the common good, it's been politicized.
agree 100%
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 23, 2020, 07:44:32 AM
He routinely posts bullsh*t that's easily swatted down. If he doesn't want to be "pushed down," he should post stuff that is more than a simple talking point.
Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies. Rocky's approach was positive. That's all I'm saying. Negative slapping (I'm extremely guilty of this) just pushes people into corners or back into the open arms of what they're used to.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 10:46:59 AM
Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies. Rocky's approach was positive. That's all I'm saying. Negative slapping (I'm extremely guilty of this) just pushes people into corners or back into the open arms of what they're used to.
"I have extremist viewpoints because someone on the MU message boards wasn't nice when he explained how wrong I am"
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 10:46:59 AM
Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies. Rocky's approach was positive. That's all I'm saying. Negative slapping (I'm extremely guilty of this) just pushes people into corners or back into the open arms of what they're used to.
What if those people aren't repeating lies but intentionally trolling?
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 23, 2020, 09:27:01 AM
And (3) we don't need anymore confusion or "room for opinion" on whether to take the vaccine or when is the most moral time to take the vaccine. Regardless of intention, anyone in leadership not taking the vaccine immediately when offered clouds what should be unanimous messaging for their own political gain and to the detriment of the country.
Excellent point.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 23, 2020, 11:00:40 AM
What if those people aren't repeating lies but intentionally trolling?
Oh, he's not trolling.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 23, 2020, 10:58:53 AM
"I have extremist viewpoints because someone on the MU message boards wasn't nice when he explained how wrong I am"
Yeah, that isn't what i was alluding to at all. If you want to have these folks never wake up, keep treating them like crap. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 10:46:59 AM
Hey man, I get it, but at some point we have to rehab these people who are constantly lied to and then repeat the lies.
While it is a nice, optimistic thought, it simply ain't happening. There is no rehabbing these people who so gladly swallow easily proven lies and will fight tooth and nail to defend those lies in the face of every fact.
It would be nice if it were possible, but sadly it isn't.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 23, 2020, 02:22:17 PM
While it is a nice, optimistic thought, it simply ain't happening. There is no rehabbing these people who so gladly swallow easily proven lies and will fight tooth and nail to defend those lies in the face of every fact.
It would be nice if it were possible, but sadly it isn't.
I disagree. I don't think Biden is perfect. I could do 500 words on votes of his I disagree with. But, if he keeps the 'Uncle Joe' thing going and stays focused on common sense solutions and pragmatism, there is a percentage of people whom you write off who will recognize competence and realize that they were in a MAGA haze. What percentage? I don't know. But enough. Not all. There are closed minded extremists of both ilks who will never be won over by common sense.
Quote from: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 02:29:08 PM
I disagree. I don't think Biden is perfect. I could do 500 words on votes of his I disagree with. But, if he keeps the 'Uncle Joe' thing going and stays focused on common sense solutions and pragmatism, there is a percentage of people whom you write off who will recognize competence and realize that they were in a MAGA haze. What percentage? I don't know. But enough. Not all. There are closed minded extremists of both ilks who will never be won over by common sense.
Exactly.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 02:38:19 PM
Exactly.
Good luck to you both. It's an extremely Quixotic endeavor IMO. Sure, there are people in the middle who might be swayed, but the MAGAs? Not a chance. They live for the lies they are told.
Biden could be the greatest President ever for the next four years and it will not sway people like guru, 4ever, or rocket one iota.
So you shouldn't do the right thing for the most people because it won't convince the hardest core of the opposition party? Do the virtuous thing anyway. Let the haters hate.
FWIW, my driver, the UM alum with multiple degrees, is equally annoying, equally sanctimonious, equally wrong, from the left. Feels like AOC and Bernie are sellouts. Dude is annoying as hell, even though I love him like a brother. Actively rooting for Biden to fail. I tell him regularly there isn't a hair of difference between him and the MAGA on the pain in the ass divorced from reality spectrum.
So, do the virtuous, right thing and don't concern yourself with the fringes.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 01:01:13 PM
Yeah, that isn't what i was alluding to at all. If you want to have these folks never wake up, keep treating them like crap. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
I have read a hundred articles and heard it on TV dozens of times that the left needs to reach out to trump supporters.
I have seen zero articles and zero comments on TV that trump supporters need to reach out to the left.
Until I do, they can all get screwed.
Quote from: Jockey on December 23, 2020, 04:38:59 PM
I have read a hundred articles and heard it on TV dozens of times that the left needs to reach out to trump supporters.
I have seen zero articles and zero comments on TV that trump supporters need to reach out to the left.
Until I do, they can all get screwed.
I never said reach out. I said when they reach out, don't spit in their face. That's it.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2020, 04:45:56 PM
I never said reach out. I said when they reach out, don't spit in their face. That's it.
Which one of them reached out?
Quote from: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 03:52:26 PM
So you shouldn't do the right thing for the most people because it won't convince the hardest core of the opposition party? Do the virtuous thing anyway. Let the haters hate.
What is virtuous about spending your time trying to convince people that will never be convinced? Why is the right thing to do to waste your time on people that revel in racism, misogyny, and hate? Nothing is going to change their minds. Good luck if you wish to spend your time trying to do so, but it isn't virtuous.
Quote from: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 03:52:26 PM
So, do the virtuous, right thing and don't concern yourself with the fringes.
They aren't the fringes. 70% of Republicans believe Trump's bullchit about a stolen election. 30% of Republicans believe in a conspiracy that Democrats run a pedophile ring that drinks the blood of children. Thirty. Fucking. Percent.
More than 100 elected Republican Representatives are on record supporting overturning the Constitution to keep Trump in power. Yes, 100 Republican members of the House of Representatives have formally stated that are in favor of a coup and it has become so mainstream that people barely blink.
That's the "fringe" these days.
If you lower yourself to their bat crap level, what exactly have you accomplished in the big picture and what have you done to yourself? Be the difference. Virtue for virtue's sake.
Quote from: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
If you lower yourself to their bat crap level, what exactly have you accomplished in the big picture and what have you done to yourself? Be the difference.
Well first of all, I don't think this statement has anything at all to do with the (in my opinion misguided) idea that reaching out to them is somehow virtuous.
More importantly, the whole point is that I haven't lowered myself to their level. I don't believe a secret cabal of Republicans drink the blood of children. I don't praise Nazis and Klansman as very fine people. I don't revel in white nationalists supporting my cause. I don't support putting children in cages and separating them from their parents in some cases forever. I don't insist it is my right to potentially kill my fellow Americans because I don't want to wear a strip of cloth.
All of these, and many more morally abhorrent positions are not fringe, they are vociferously promoted by the mainstream Republican party. So no, I haven't lowered myself to their batcrap level, and neither do I think it is virtuous to spend my time trying to convince people who not only believe these things, but revel in them.
Great stuff on the vaccine.
I am pleased that the government is purchasing another 100 million doses from Pfizer. I expect there are still going to be supply chain issues and rollout challenges. The logistics of something this charge are just so intricate and massive that there is no way to avoid it. The notion that every adult who wants the vaccine will have it by June is heartening.
Quote from: tower912 on December 23, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
If you lower yourself to their bat crap level, what exactly have you accomplished in the big picture and what have you done to yourself? Be the difference. Virtue for virtue's sake.
Ok Tower, you're the perfect picture of virtue. You've been equally nasty on this board as Jockey, TSmith, etc..
Practice what you preach.
Only to you. For very specific reasons.
Quote from: tower912 on December 24, 2020, 08:16:18 AM
Only to you. For very specific reasons.
Ahh, as long as it's only directed at me then it's ok.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on December 24, 2020, 08:31:17 AM
Ahh, as long as it's only directed at me then it's ok.
We should start a poll but I suspect a lot would agree.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on December 24, 2020, 08:31:17 AM
Ahh, as long as it's only directed at me then it's ok.
I assumed you were Chico's. If you are, then I don't owe you an apology. If you aren't, I apologize for wrongly assuming you were Chico. But you were still wrong about the virus. Although this martyrdom thing tilts the scale toward Chico.
Quote from: tower912 on December 24, 2020, 09:01:42 AM
I assumed you were Chico's. If you are, then I don't owe you an apology. If you aren't, I apologize for wrongly assuming you were Chico. But your were still wrong about the virus. Although this martyrdom thing tilts the scale toward Chico.
Like I've said before. I'm not Chico
What's a chicos?
Sad.
Largest hospital system in the southeast cancels some employees' COVID-19 vaccinations because of reports that some jumped ahead in line.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article248078950.html?ac_cid=DM350921&ac_bid=-1049799944
Some at Atrium Health who were scheduled to get their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine next month will be delayed, following a controversy this week over non-medical employees being included in the first phase of vaccine distribution.
Officials at Atrium told the Observer on Thursday as many as 97 employees will have vaccination appointments canceled. Based on North Carolina health officials' vaccine guidance published in October, those first in line should be "healthcare workers and medical first responders who are at high risk of exposure based on work duties or who are vital to the initial COVID-19 vaccine distribution."
"I can assure you that the only people who have received vaccines by Atrium Health were categorized by (Phase) 1a..." Dr. Scott Rissmiller, Atrium's executive vice president and chief physician executive, told the Observer. "The key is to get those most at risk and those who are on the frontlines risking their lives for the community. We get the vaccine to them so they can care for those who need it as others are waiting."
FYI, my wife is a pediatric RN at this hospital. She does not directly work with COVID-19 patients most of the time. She is part of the hospital's third group scheduled to get the vaccine. Her appointment for the first injection is for 2 weeks from now.
Quote from: MU82 on December 25, 2020, 11:38:48 AM
Largest hospital system in the southeast cancels some employees' COVID-19 vaccinations because of reports that some jumped ahead in line.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article248078950.html?ac_cid=DM350921&ac_bid=-1049799944
Some at Atrium Health who were scheduled to get their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine next month will be delayed, following a controversy this week over non-medical employees being included in the first phase of vaccine distribution.
Officials at Atrium told the Observer on Thursday as many as 97 employees will have vaccination appointments canceled. Based on North Carolina health officials' vaccine guidance published in October, those first in line should be "healthcare workers and medical first responders who are at high risk of exposure based on work duties or who are vital to the initial COVID-19 vaccine distribution."
"I can assure you that the only people who have received vaccines by Atrium Health were categorized by (Phase) 1a..." Dr. Scott Rissmiller, Atrium's executive vice president and chief physician executive, told the Observer. "The key is to get those most at risk and those who are on the frontlines risking their lives for the community. We get the vaccine to them so they can care for those who need it as others are waiting."
FYI, my wife is a pediatric RN at this hospital. She does not directly work with COVID-19 patients most of the time. She is part of the hospital's third group scheduled to get the vaccine. Her appointment for the first injection is for 2 weeks from now.
Not this hospital, but I know a bunch of health care workers from around the country that never see patients, and work from home, magically already haven got the vaccine.
Also, even some family members of health care workers.
Quote from: forgetful on December 26, 2020, 10:29:35 AM
Not this hospital, but I know a bunch of health care workers from around the country that never see patients, and work from home, magically already haven got the vaccine.
Also, even some family members of health care workers.
Yep. And on the flip side, health care workers with direct patient contact are waiting longer because of this and other line-jumpers or distribution issues. I know a few who have been told their appointments have been pushed back because of a variety of issues.
Disappointing, but not terribly surprising.
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher. The email said teachers have been named as front line workers. Email gave a list of places she can go receive.
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 26, 2020, 06:15:26 PM
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher. The email said teachers have been named as front line workers. Email gave a list of places she can go receive.
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.
I know there was some talk of wanting this designation for Wisconsin teachers so they could get vaccines sooner but I don't think anything has happened here for that yet.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 26, 2020, 06:15:26 PM
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher. The email said teachers have been named as front line workers. Email gave a list of places she can go receive.
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.
Depends on the state. Some states have given them priority after police/fireman etc.
Some are giving them zero priority.
Some don't even give police/fireman a priority (absolutely ridiculous).
The CDC only gives guidance, and they guided that teachers should be a priority, states decide what they will actually do.
Wait, there isn't a coherent national strategy?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 26, 2020, 06:15:26 PM
My wife got an email today that she is vaccine eligible now as a teacher. The email said teachers have been named as front line workers. Email gave a list of places she can go receive.
I thought teachers were farther down the line and I don't know if this is a Connecticut thing.
There is talk of doing that in MN, but I am not sure if they made an official decision. My wife will definitely get one if it's allowed.
Quote from: tower912 on December 26, 2020, 07:07:32 PM
Wait, there isn't a coherent national strategy?
trump is working on it this weekend. IF he has time after he gets off the golf course.
Quote from: tower912 on December 26, 2020, 07:07:32 PM
Wait, there isn't a coherent national strategy?
Up to the states to plan/carry out distribution. And that's the way it should be. One size doesn't fit all. In Florida, the governor has moved the priority cut off from 75 to 65. We have a lot of seniors here and he (reasonably IMO) thinks a 74 year old (or a 66 year old) should get it before a healthy 24 year old who works in a grocery store. Slight departure from guidelines I've seen but given Florida's demographic it makes sense.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 07:44:15 PM
Up to the states to plan/carry out distribution. And that's the way it should be. One size doesn't fit all. In Florida, the governor has moved the priority cut off from 75 to 65. We have a lot of seniors here and he (reasonably IMO) thinks a 74 year old (or a 66 year old) should get it before a healthy 24 year old who works in a grocery store. Slight departure from guidelines I've seen but given Florida's demographic it makes sense.
Why does he believe this. Does he have better information?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 07:44:15 PM
Up to the states to plan/carry out distribution. And that's the way it should be. One size doesn't fit all. In Florida, the governor has moved the priority cut off from 75 to 65. We have a lot of seniors here and he (reasonably IMO) thinks a 74 year old (or a 66 year old) should get it before a healthy 24 year old who works in a grocery store. Slight departure from guidelines I've seen but given Florida's demographic it makes sense.
What makes the 74 (or 66) year old in Montana any less at risk than the 74 (or 66) year old in Florida? Or the 24 year old grocery store worker in Montana any more at risk than the 24 year old grocery worker in Florida? Seems like that would be something that fits all the states.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 26, 2020, 07:46:03 PM
Why does he believe this. Does he have better information?
I assume he has the same information as the CDC - just a little more common sense. That information shows that Covid is most lethal to those 75+. Next at greatest risk are those 65-74. So, after long term care facility workers and staff, health care workers with direct patient contact and people hospitals deem extremely vulnerable to Covid 19 are vaccinated it goes to the general population. Here, that will be seniors 65+ (rather than those 75+) followed by those deemed essential workers (firemen, school teachers, grocery clerks, etc). If the object is less deaths, moving the 65-74 group up in priority certainly makes sense. He's an "essential worker", of course, but will wait in line until the most vulnerable have been served. Good for him.
The cynic in me believes that DeSantis is only concerned with how the seniors vote. The fact that he made this announcement in The Villages is very telling.
Quote from: BLM on December 26, 2020, 07:47:24 PM
What makes the 74 (or 66) year old in Montana any less at risk than the 74 (or 66) year old in Florida? Or the 24 year old grocery store worker in Montana any more at risk than the 24 year old grocery worker in Florida? Seems like that would be something that fits all the states.
Good point, Wades. The Florida plan makes more sense in all states, but given our population it will save more lives (by sheer numbers and %) here than most other places. So, even more essential in Florida than Montana would be a better way to put it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 09:44:39 PM
I assume he has the same information as the CDC - just a little more common sense. That information shows that Covid is most lethal to those 75+. Next at greatest risk are those 65-74. So, after long term care facility workers and staff, health care workers with direct patient contact and people hospitals deem extremely vulnerable to Covid 19 are vaccinated it goes to the general population. Here, that will be seniors 65+ (rather than those 75+) followed by those deemed essential workers (firemen, school teachers, grocery clerks, etc). If the object is less deaths, moving the 65-74 group up in priority certainly makes sense. He's an "essential worker", of course, but will wait in line until the most vulnerable have been served. Good for him.
So he's smarter or has better judgement than the cdc in your opinion. Look I am not debating order. Everyone has to determine the rollout thanks to our system. But to exalt a governor points to something unclear as to why FL is different.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on December 26, 2020, 09:52:23 PM
The cynic in me believes that DeSantis is only concerned with how the seniors vote. The fact that he made this announcement in The Villages is very telling.
The cynic in me believes that there's a political consideration in every one of their utterances. If they were altruists they never would have become politicians in the first place. His motives are his motives - I don't know and couldn't care less. The policy is what I care about. It's a departure from what the CDC is recommending and IMO a sensible one that will save lives. Isn't that what we're trying to do?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 26, 2020, 09:59:22 PM
So he's smarter or has better judgement than the cdc in your opinion. Look I am not debating order. Everyone has to determine the rollout thanks to our system. But to exalt a governor points to something unclear as to why FL is different.
I'm not "exalting" anyone. But I do, I guess, exalt the fact that there are some people who haven't completely abdicated basic judgement and common sense to government agencies because they are manned by "experts". Listen to them, sure. But are they above being questioned? Are they speaking ex cathedral? C'mon, Frenns - you know better than that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 10:20:54 PM
I'm not "exalting" anyone. But I do, I guess, exalt the fact that there are some people who haven't completely abdicated basic judgement and common sense to government agencies because they are manned by "experts". Listen to them, sure. But are they above being questioned? Are they speaking ex cathedral? C'mon, Frenns - you know better than that.
Nm
Sorry for the diversion.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 10:05:06 PM
The cynic in me believes that there's a political consideration in every one of their utterances. If they were altruists they never would have become politicians in the first place. His motives are his motives - I don't know and couldn't care less. The policy is what I care about. It's a departure from what the CDC is recommending and IMO a sensible one that will save lives. Isn't that what we're trying to do?
When you stop caring about the motives of people's actions, methinks you might need some introspection.
Quote from: reinko on December 27, 2020, 06:46:23 AM
When you stop caring about the motives of people's actions, methinks you might need some introspection.
When you stop listening to common sense, life saving ideas because of a political bias that you (in your infinite wisdom) think "might" be self serving, methinks you might need more than some introspection.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 07:32:26 AM
When you stop listening to common sense, life saving ideas because of a political bias that you (in your infinite wisdom) think "might" be self serving, methinks you might need more than some introspection.
Did you notice, I didn't attack DeSantis's plan, it could very well be the right one. I'm not an infectious disease expert, but my point was, you said you didn't care about his motives...they could self-serving, self-less, my guess is probably somewhere in the middle.
I just think it's a slippery slope, that what I implied from your comment is well, I agree with what xxx politician said, so I don't care what their motives are and in the end it doesn't really matter, because I think they're right.
Honest question, do you question the motives of politicians you disagree with?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 26, 2020, 09:44:39 PM
I assume he has the same information as the CDC - just a little more common sense. That information shows that Covid is most lethal to those 75+. Next at greatest risk are those 65-74. So, after long term care facility workers and staff, health care workers with direct patient contact and people hospitals deem extremely vulnerable to Covid 19 are vaccinated it goes to the general population. Here, that will be seniors 65+ (rather than those 75+) followed by those deemed essential workers (firemen, school teachers, grocery clerks, etc). If the object is less deaths, moving the 65-74 group up in priority certainly makes sense. He's an "essential worker", of course, but will wait in line until the most vulnerable have been served. Good for him.
He has also said no essential workers like police, first responders, teachers have priority.
Oh, and he SAID a lot of things, but Florida has no real plan. Well, other than making sure all The Villages got their shots first. Wonder why that is a priority? Meanwhile my 96 yo WWII vet dad waits.
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 27, 2020, 08:01:42 AM
He has also said no essential workers like police, first responders, teachers have priority.
Oh, and he SAID a lot of things, but Florida has no real plan. Well, other than making sure all The Villages got their shots first. Wonder why that is a priority? Meanwhile my 96 yo WWII vet dad waits.
That was my point earlier. I don't know the right order and a group of infectious disease experts got together and made a recommendation. Now everyone is making the "common sense calls"
Just feels like another step of ignoring the cdc. Which has not really worked that well so far.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 27, 2020, 08:06:15 AM
That was my point earlier. I don't know the right order and a group of infectious disease experts got together and made a recommendation. Now everyone is making the "common sense calls"
Just feels like another step of ignoring the cdc. Which has not really worked that well so far.
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn't. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn't make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but "because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so" isn't a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn't. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn't make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but "because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so" isn't a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.
I don't know. Maybe you should research their logic rather than just shooting from the hip.
Everyone isn't as lucky as we are and preventing community spread or controlling a pandemic is not just binary based on your or my hot take.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn't. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn't make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but "because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so" isn't a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.
Shouldn't there be a happy medium between at-risk patients and essential workforce so spread decreases?
Otherwise, the economy is going to suffer because we can't open up as quickly as we otherwise could. If you give all available vaccine to retirees, we're not opening up anytime soon.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
That this is even debatable blows my mind.
I've felt that way for 10 months. Or, in the spirit of the season, 'Welcome to the party, pal'.
But I am going to assume we could endlessly debate that which neither of us sees as debatable.
Be safe, Lenny. Get that vaccine as soon as you can.
I have friends who winter in the Villages, so I hear a lot about what goes on there. If we are already mad at the politicians who downplayed the virus and are getting vaccinated ahead of essential workers, we should be equally mad at the retirees down there who still insist on maskless gatherings and also downplayed the virus getting the vaccine ahead of essential workers. Many people there take zero precautions and sneer at those who do. But I suppose if it protects the grocery and other workers there to have the seniors get it first, then maybe there is a silver lining.
My wife has said she will take half of everything before she lets us move there.
I have a friend in the Miami area who inherited her father's house there. She rents it out for the winter, and otherwise they go there to golf. Every time she mentions maybe moving there because of the golf and all the clubs and activities, her husband is like, over my dead body.....
Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2020, 12:02:01 PM
My wife has said she will take half of everything before she lets us move there.
Take dat deel, kin. Ya kan allweys hook up wit a rich widow down der, hey?
Nope. I would rather have her than be rich.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn't. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn't make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but "because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so" isn't a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.
Probably because they're more important to society.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn't. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn't make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but "because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so" isn't a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.
During a pandemic that is killing some people, making others very sick, overwhelming our hospitals and spreading like wildfire, saving lives is a complex calculus involving (1) controlling the spread; (2) protecting those who care for the most severely affected, and (3) preventing the most vulnerable. The CDC has the most knowledge about how to balance all of these factors.
Sorry if this blows your mind.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
We know who Covid kills and who it doesn't. The CDC is one of the sources of that knowledge. That doesn't make them policy experts. If the goal of the vaccine is to save lives why should people at almost no risk be put in front of people 6x, 10x or more likely to die if they contract it? Sorry, but "because the CDC (at this point, anyway) says so" isn't a good enough reason for more needless and preventable deaths. That this is even debatable blows my mind.
You're not thinking this through. If our HCWs and other who are essential are getting sick from covid then they can't do their ESSENTIAL jobs. You used the example of a 24 year old getting the vaccine over a 65 year old... well if the 65 year old is sitting home or masking and going to the store and NOT doing all the irresponsible crap they shouldn't be doing, then they have low risk. Meanwhile the 24 year old nurse is doing the best she can, working overtime to care for the 65 year olds who are running around town, going to bars, and seeing family. If she gets sick, it puts her family at risk, and she can't do her job to care for people. THIS PUTS THE 65 YEAR OLD AT RISK IN A DIFFERENT, BUT MORE DEADLY WAY.
Not to mention there are a hell of a lot less essential workers than there are 65+ year olds in Florida. The issue here ISN'T the potential for death, its the potential for health care and essential worker collapse.
DeSantis knows who votes in Florida, and that there are a lot more 65+ voters than there are essential workers. He did simple math, period.
Biden will invoke Defense Production Act to boost Covid vaccine production, advisor says
PUBLISHED MON, DEC 28 20209:41 AM ESTUPDATED MON, DEC 28 20209:56
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/28/biden-will-invoke-defense-production-act-to-boost-covid-vaccine-production-advisor-says.html
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 28, 2020, 11:45:00 AM
Biden will invoke Defense Production Act to boost Covid vaccine production, advisor says
PUBLISHED MON, DEC 28 20209:41 AM ESTUPDATED MON, DEC 28 20209:56
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/28/biden-will-invoke-defense-production-act-to-boost-covid-vaccine-production-advisor-says.html
That doesn't make Biden a genius. Anyone with any intelligence at all would do the same. Hence, that is the reason it hasn't been done.
No, he's not. Nor is he a miracle worker. But he is actually going to make an effort and attempt to lead.
Quote from: tower912 on December 28, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
No, he's not. Nor is be a miracle worker. But he is actually going to make an effort and attempt to lead.
Exactly. If he had been president last January, this country would be quite different.
In Trump's defense (a phrase I don't invoke often), there was a lot we didn't know in January and February; even Fauci and other experts got some things wrong. And Trump actually was pretty engaged (for him, anyway). He did close off some of the travel from China, and he did buy into states shutting down in mid-March. One could argue that he should have acted more quickly, that he shouldn't have scrapped Obama's pandemic playbook and staff, that he should have been as honest with the American public as he was with Bob Woodward, etc, but he at least pretended the virus actually was a threat.
It was in mid-April that he fell off the rails. He encouraged thugs to protest violently against states that hadn't met his own guidelines. Then he sent Jared out on April 29 to declare victory over COVID-19. Then he started referring to the virus by racist names. Then he got wackier and wackier in regards to potential treatments/preventatives. Then he conducted a misinformation campaign against masks and social distancing. Then he resumed deadly super-spreader rallies.Then he said COVID-19 "affects virtually nobody." Etc, etc, etc.
Objectively, while Trump's response was flawed at first, at least he seemed willing to try to lead. It was in mid-April that the epic failure began, and more than 300K Americans have died since then. If we had an effective leader who cared about anybody but himself, how many of those lives might have been saved?
Ultimately, in addition to the deaths and sickness and jobs lost and businesses shuttered forever, his failure cost him the presidency.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 28, 2020, 10:12:16 AM
You're not thinking this through. If our HCWs and other who are essential are getting sick from covid then they can't do their ESSENTIAL jobs. You used the example of a 24 year old getting the vaccine over a 65 year old... well if the 65 year old is sitting home or masking and going to the store and NOT doing all the irresponsible crap they shouldn't be doing, then they have low risk. Meanwhile the 24 year old nurse is doing the best she can, working overtime to care for the 65 year olds who are running around town, going to bars, and seeing family. If she gets sick, it puts her family at risk, and she can't do her job to care for people. THIS PUTS THE 65 YEAR OLD AT RISK IN A DIFFERENT, BUT MORE DEADLY WAY.
Not to mention there are a hell of a lot less essential workers than there are 65+ year olds in Florida. The issue here ISN'T the potential for death, its the potential for health care and essential worker collapse.
DeSantis knows who votes in Florida, and that there are a lot more 65+ voters than there are essential workers. He did simple math, period.
You're misrepresenting. HCW are at the front of the line in Florida and in my area have already received the first dose. But the 22 year old grocery clerk and the 40 year old teacher (who have almost no chance of dying from Covid) will now wait in line behind those 65+ instead of those 75+. And those between 65 and 74 are in much greater danger of death than those younger.
I have 4 kids, ages 36, 37, 39 and 42. They have kids. None of them voted for Trump and (if eligible) none of them would have voted for DeSantis. Two are deemed essential workers. But they're aware that their parents (ages 69 and 72) are much more vulnerable to Covid than they are. They would all give up their place in line for a senior and are very grateful that their (at greater risk) parents will get the vaccine more quickly because they live in Florida. I recall that when your parents were stuck on that cruise ship you were very concerned. Assuming they're both 72, do you think that should wait until 118 million have been vaccinated to get the shot? Based on CDC guidelines that was the New York Times estimate for me. There are evidently a hell of a lot more workers deemed essential than you think.
The line drawn for essential workers is ridiculous. My 39yr old sister and 68yr old mom are both getting vaccinated tomorrow because as nurses they're deemed essential... they run a medispa. Granted they did some volunteer work in clinics for a bit earlier on in the shut down but not anymore.
I don't know if every state is just saying "this person is a licensed medical professional of some sort so vaccinate them" but if so that's ridiculous and we could've done better.
I hadn't noticed until now .. one of the triggers to be in the Phase 1c vaccine group?
Being a past or current smoker.
I guess I can stop trying to be obese now. I smoked a few cigars years ago. Or not, but who would know?
Maybe I'll buy a pack of Lucky's on the way to the vaccination, just to be safe.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 11:19:13 PM
The line drawn for essential workers is ridiculous. My 39yr old sister and 68yr old mom are both getting vaccinated tomorrow because as nurses they're deemed essential... they run a medispa. Granted they did some volunteer work in clinics for a bit earlier on in the shut down but not anymore.
I don't know if every state is just saying "this person is a licensed medical professional of some sort so vaccinate them" but if so that's ridiculous and we could've done better.
I actually think the bolded is fine. We just need to to do our best to get this as right as we can, and the red tape of "Are you a medical professional? Do you work in a REAL healthcare setting? If not would you consider working temporarily in a covid unit if we have a shortage?" and on and on isn't worth the delay just to reorder when two people get their doses. Set your categories, work them through, and just hope you get it mostly right.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 28, 2020, 10:03:17 PM
You're misrepresenting. HCW are at the front of the line in Florida and in my area have already received the first dose. But the 22 year old grocery clerk and the 40 year old teacher (who have almost no chance of dying from Covid) will now wait in line behind those 65+ instead of those 75+. And those between 65 and 74 are in much greater danger of death than those younger.
I have 4 kids, ages 36, 37, 39 and 42. They have kids. None of them voted for Trump and (if eligible) none of them would have voted for DeSantis. Two are deemed essential workers. But they're aware that their parents (ages 69 and 72) are much more vulnerable to Covid than they are. They would all give up their place in line for a senior and are very grateful that their (at greater risk) parents will get the vaccine more quickly because they live in Florida. I recall that when your parents were stuck on that cruise ship you were very concerned. Assuming they're both 72, do you think that should wait until 118 million have been vaccinated to get the shot? Based on CDC guidelines that was the New York Times estimate for me. There are evidently a hell of a lot more workers deemed essential than you think.
I'm not misrepresenting. I didn't say just HCW's either. I said essential employees. My parents got covid and were asymptomatic. Furthermore, we discussed this, and had they not gotten covid they wouldn't put themselves before essential workers. Their lives are barely affected by the virus. Except for going on vacation outside of the US... which no one will be doing for the foreseeable future. We need to vaccinate our HCWs, supply chain, and essential services workers asap. When I say this, I don't mean the crazy crap that we have considered 'essential' over the last 9 months. I'm talking about actually essential... like society breaks down without them. If you want me to be specific, I can be. But as a simple example, daycare teachers and teachers are absolutely essential. If you vaccinate one of these people, you bring down the spread, and you take secure society. People who IF they get sick cannot easily be replaced. I'm talking disruption of society vs another month of grandma doing what she has been doing for the last 9 months.
I'll use your example of a 40 year old teacher. Teacher gets sick and school has to find a sub... except there isn't a pool for those right now. So those 30 kids from that class don't have a teacher for a week or two. Okay, so they stay home now? Parent's need to find a place for those kids to stay. I'm sure that a lot of people can find somewhere for their kid for a day or two, but two weeks off is financially crippling to a lot of families. Especially at the drop of a hat. So as a result, mom or dad has to stay home with the kid for a week or two while teacher recovers. So now, how many people has one teacher getting sick affected? Of course, no one dies, but there is probably another family that is slipping closer or deeper into poverty. And we've made this decision so that grandma can get a hug? I don't get it. Where is your logic. If grandma has been able to weather the storm for 9 months, and knows the techniques for making herself safe then why is she a priority? Her chance of getting covid is low already. So why rush her a vaccine?
Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first. It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality. You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now! It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people. What a total crock of sh!t.
Some on here, and De Santis (and other governors) are trying to over-simplify the calculus on saving lives.
The best way to save lives is to stop the spread. The CDC closely examines which populations are contributing most to the spread. Those are the essential workers, who are unable to stay home and WFH.
If there is no spread their can't be deaths.
The best way to save lives is:
1. Mandate WFH if possible. Emphasize that those 65+ who have retired should be sheltering in place as best as possible.
2. Vaccinate all front-line health personnel, this should/must include police, firemen, EMTs. That must not include administrators, staff, etc., that work from home and have zero patient interaction.
3. Vaccinate all nursing home patients, or those requiring in home care, who are especially vulnerable to severe illness.
4. Vaccinate all other essential persons, e.g food industry, teachers, etc., that are being mandated to work in person regardless of health risks.
5. Vaccinate the rest of the population starting with most vulnerable first.
This strategy allows one to protect the elderly, provided they follow WFH and shelter in place rules, and stop the spread to begin with.
That CDC policy, both saves the most lives, and gets us out of this pandemic faster and with less impact on the economy. It requires those more at risk to ride this out at home, where they are safe for about 4 more months.
I'm 65+, retired, with no other high risk factors. I'd be pretty much good with that vaccine priority.
I might push employed 65+ people who cannot WFH into a category like essential workers, though they might be there already.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 28, 2020, 11:19:13 PM
My 39yr old sister and 68yr old mom are both getting vaccinated tomorrow because as nurses they're deemed essential... they run a medispa.
Curious...what state? This seems to be a crapshoot depending on state.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 29, 2020, 11:46:21 AM
Curious...what state? This seems to be a crapshoot depending on state.
Arizona, I suppose in Scottsdale Botox and lasers are medical necessities
Instead of worrying so much about WHO gets vaccinated, how about worrying about HOW we get people vaccinated?
At the current pace, we are looking at close to a decade to get everyone vaccinated.
I realize we will replace a madman with a real president in 22 days (the coup attempt will fail), but we need to pick up the pace dramatically.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 29, 2020, 12:11:03 PM
Arizona, I suppose in Scottsdale Botox and lasers are medical necessities
You wouldnt want to see what happens to that place without them!!
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 29, 2020, 08:59:18 AM
I hadn't noticed until now .. one of the triggers to be in the Phase 1c vaccine group?
Being a past or current smoker.
I guess I can stop trying to be obese now. I smoked a few cigars years ago. Or not, but who would know?
Maybe I'll buy a pack of Lucky's on the way to the vaccination, just to be safe.
Excellent. I breathed in scads of secondhand smoke from the 60s through the 80s, and we know that smoke doesn't become any less toxic just because someone else is holding the cigarette. Former smoker here.
I'm gonna go put on my parka and get in line!
Quote from: forgetful on December 29, 2020, 10:37:51 AM
Some on here, and De Santis (and other governors) are trying to over-simplify the calculus on saving lives.
The best way to save lives is to stop the spread. The CDC closely examines which populations are contributing most to the spread. Those are the essential workers, who are unable to stay home and WFH.
Yep. I tried to emphasize the complexity of the task and the unique position of the CDC to best assess all the moving parts earlier, but my post went largely unnoticed.
Your post does an excellent job of fleshing out more of the details. Hopefully it will help more people understand...
https://abc11.com/moderna-vaccine-side-effects-covid-19-fda-dr-shirley-chi/9083838/
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 29, 2020, 01:22:12 PM
https://abc11.com/moderna-vaccine-side-effects-covid-19-fda-dr-shirley-chi/9083838/
It is 3 pts out of 30,000 and the filler is not identified.
We were promised 20,000,000 vaccinations by Thursday.
We will barely be 10% of that.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 29, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
It is 3 pts out of 30,000 and the filler is not identified.
Got it. I won't share vaccine info any more.
[quote author=Hards_Alumni link=topic=60399.msg1292309#msg1292309 date=1609257751
Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first. It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality. You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now! It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people. What a total crock of sh!t.
[/quote]
Hards
I started on the CBOE as a runner making $500 a month. Left the firm I worked for 6 years later, borrowed money from a bank to open a trading account, leased a seat and went to work for myself. I was barely 30 and already had one of four kids and a wife to support. Nothing was "handed" to me, and there were plenty of ups and downs. I'm grateful for all of them, but mostly for my family and the friends I made along the way. Your hatred of my (and your parent's) generation puzzles me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you given the family business to run by your parents? I would think gratitude rather than bitterness would be what you feel towards those boomers.
Re the Covid, this board has scores of posts on the horrendous death count. We know who it kills. Florida has a plan that will better protect those people - which I thought was the idea. I guess it's not for you - off with their heads, death to the entitled!
Edit: I'm told you work in your in-laws family business, not your parent's. Sorry for the misstatement but the point still stands.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2020, 07:00:12 PM
[quote author=Hards_Alumni link=topic=60399.msg1292309#msg1292309 date=1609257751
Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first. It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality. You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now! It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people. What a total crock of sh!t.
Hards
I started on the CBOE as a runner making $500 a month. Left the firm I worked for 6 years later, borrowed money from a bank to open a trading account, leased a seat and went to work for myself. I was barely 30 and already had one of four kids and a wife to support. Nothing was "handed" to me, and there were plenty of ups and downs. I'm grateful for all of them, but mostly for my family and the friends I made along the way. Your hatred of my (and your parent's) generation puzzles me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you given the family business to run by your parents? I would think gratitude rather than bitterness would be what you feel towards those boomers.
Re the Covid, this board has scores of posts on the horrendous death count. We know who it kills. Florida has a plan that will better protect those people - which I thought was the idea. I guess it's not for you - off with their heads, death to the entitled!
Says the guy who says he doesn't care about motive anymore, yet this new rule just by happenstance benefits YOU.
Not sure where all the over-generalizations about and resentment toward Boomers is coming from. It's a form of bigotry.
And I say the same about those who harp on Millennials. It's stupid, unproductive and quite often wrong.
Quote from: reinko on December 29, 2020, 07:18:55 PM
Says the guy who says he doesn't care about motive anymore, yet this new rule just by happenstance benefits YOU.
It's high comedy from the Tap. Just bask in the egotism.
Quote from: reinko on December 29, 2020, 07:18:55 PM
Says the guy who says he doesn't care about motive anymore, yet this new rule just by happenstance benefits YOU.
Do the 4000 black men freed due to the Prison Reform Bill have to oppose it on philosophical grounds because it benefits them? Is it logical to oppose a policy that makes sense just because you may benefit? Mean spirited nonsense.
Quote from: Retire0 on December 29, 2020, 08:18:33 PM
It's high comedy from the Tap. Just bask in the egotism.
Sorry if I blew my own horn too loudly. But when Hards accused me of stealing his birthright I thought it was fair to set the record straight.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2020, 08:56:16 PM
Do the 4000 black men freed due to the Prison Reform Bill have to oppose it on philosophical grounds because it benefits them? Is it logical to oppose a policy that makes sense just because you may benefit? Mean spirited nonsense.
A 70 year old white dude using Black men as a straw man for a bullcrap argument. Lenny, you went down a weird twisted path the last 10 months. Congrats you can get a vaccine before my daughters teacher while she sits in front of computer for the next 5 months, but you and the Mrs can go to your Del Boca Vista clubhouse for happy hour 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
edit: no ban, just edited.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 29, 2020, 07:00:12 PM
[quote author=Hards_Alumni link=topic=60399.msg1292309#msg1292309 date=1609257751
Additionally, I think it is quite telling to see the people who were harping how we 'cant shut down the economy' think that retirees who can literally shelter in place for months NEED the vaccine first. It would be funny, if it weren't such a ME FIRST boomer mentality. You guys have had everything handed to your generation your entire lives... why stop now! It was all about saving the economy for months, and now its all about saving people. What a total crock of sh!t.
Hards
I started on the CBOE as a runner making $500 a month. Left the firm I worked for 6 years later, borrowed money from a bank to open a trading account, leased a seat and went to work for myself. I was barely 30 and already had one of four kids and a wife to support. Nothing was "handed" to me, and there were plenty of ups and downs. I'm grateful for all of them, but mostly for my family and the friends I made along the way. Your hatred of my (and your parent's) generation puzzles me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you given the family business to run by your parents? I would think gratitude rather than bitterness would be what you feel towards those boomers.
Re the Covid, this board has scores of posts on the horrendous death count. We know who it kills. Florida has a plan that will better protect those people - which I thought was the idea. I guess it's not for you - off with their heads, death to the entitled!
Edit: I'm told you work in your in-laws family business, not your parent's. Sorry for the misstatement but the point still stands.
Odd that you can read, but can't comprehend. Reread my post, Lenny, and come back with a substantive argument. You're being pedantic to disagree for disagreements sake.
Florida and the vaccination process
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/12/29/covid-vaccine-floridas-roll-out-seniors-gets-off-rocky-start/4067324001/
Quote from: Mutaman on December 30, 2020, 01:28:18 AM
Florida and the vaccination process
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/12/29/covid-vaccine-floridas-roll-out-seniors-gets-off-rocky-start/4067324001/
Once again, our governor living up to his name, DeathSantis.
And the morons in our state will probably reelect him.
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 30, 2020, 07:30:24 AM
Once again, our governor living up to his name, DeathSantis.
And the morons in our state will probably reelect him.
Poor implementation (at least initially) of a policy is his fault/responsibility. Doesn't have anything to do with whether the policy itself is a good one.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2020, 08:01:08 AM
Poor implementation (at least initially) of a policy is his fault/responsibility. Doesn't have anything to do with whether the policy itself is a good one.
While I agree with your point, he has shown incompetence on so many levels, why trust his policy?> My god, he has an uber driving conspiracy theorist heading up the information he is using to base his decisions on.
Part of controlling the initial implementation of the vaccine is to build the infrastructure to administer large amounts of vaccine and control demand as for quite some time it will be in excess of supply.
It's a nice headline though.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 30, 2020, 09:00:57 AM
Part of controlling the initial implementation of the vaccine is to build the infrastructure to administer large amounts of vaccine and control demand as for quite some time it will be in excess of supply.
It's a nice headline though.
By the way FL isn't alone. All 50 states are doing their own thing and the feds are washing their hands of this as soon as the vaccine is 'distributed' according to both Pres and VP. I hope the money in the CARES II act is enough to get this going but there clearly is going to be a looming problem in Jan/Feb when everyone wants their vaccine.
My daughter, the occupational therapist in Maryland, got the first dose of the vaccine this morning.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 30, 2020, 09:27:04 AM
By the way FL isn't alone. All 50 states are doing their own thing and the feds are washing their hands of this as soon as the vaccine is 'distributed' according to both Pres and VP. I hope the money in the CARES II act is enough to get this going but there clearly is going to be a looming problem in Jan/Feb when everyone wants their vaccine.
I'll repeat myself again. Vaccines don't end epidemics. Vaccinations do.
We have had more than enough time to coordinate a national vaccination policy. The killers in the WH and Vice President's mansion simply don't care if any of you live or die.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 30, 2020, 09:27:04 AM
By the way FL isn't alone. All 50 states are doing their own thing and the feds are washing their hands of this as soon as the vaccine is 'distributed' according to both Pres and VP. I hope the money in the CARES II act is enough to get this going but there clearly is going to be a looming problem in Jan/Feb when everyone wants their vaccine.
Sad but true; the Trump administration has no interest in helping the states out on distribution. As a result, disagreements about prioritization are far less worrisome than the lack of resources for states to actually implement a distribution plan.
Hopefully, the Biden administration can quickly get the states what they need. If it doesn't, we all may still be wearing masks on the Fourth of July....
We're doing 1 million vaccines/week.
For 80% herd immunity that will take 10 years.
To get herd immunity by 6 months (the original federal timeline), we'd need 3.5 million vaccines per day.
(Numbers taken from CNN interview)
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 30, 2020, 01:38:19 PM
We're doing 1 million vaccines/week.
For 80% herd immunity that will take 10 years.
To get herd immunity by 6 months (the original federal timeline), we'd need 3.5 million vaccines per day.
(Numbers taken from CNN interview)
Yep. States, hospitals and pharmacies are doing their best, but it's a monumental task that begs for centralized coordination and resources.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 30, 2020, 01:07:18 PM
Hopefully, the Biden administration can quickly get the states what they need. If it doesn't, we all may still be wearing masks on the Fourth of July....
Agree ... except who is "we"? Millions of Americans are proud mouth-breathers who scream "MAGA! Freedom!" whenever masks are mentioned.
I originally heard 500 vaccine doses had to be discarded after a human error resulting in them not being refrigerated properly at Aurora Medical Center-Grafton and thought that's not so great but yeah sh*t happens. But I just read today that someone did this on purpose - what the heck? They were fired of course and imagine they might face some charges:
https://www.fox6now.com/news/aurora-grafton-discarded-covid-19-vaccine-incident-was-intentional?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%20Manual&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3Jg2QAn2PzdAqAzqUzKULa0lUupKEhMpc8mPffai7kT7W4Z43g8GRdjro
Quote from: Marquette Fan on December 30, 2020, 08:00:26 PM
I originally heard 500 vaccine doses had to be discarded after a human error resulting in them not being refrigerated properly at Aurora Medical Center-Grafton and thought that's not so great but yeah sh*t happens. But I just read today that someone did this on purpose - what the heck? They were fired of course and imagine they might face some charges:
https://www.fox6now.com/news/aurora-grafton-discarded-covid-19-vaccine-incident-was-intentional?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%20Manual&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3Jg2QAn2PzdAqAzqUzKULa0lUupKEhMpc8mPffai7kT7W4Z43g8GRdjro
That is absolutely appalling.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 30, 2020, 08:22:35 PM
That is absolutely appalling.
It never occurred to me that someone would do this on purpose - how awful :(
I just read this on another site. I am speechless. It's jaw-dropping really.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on December 30, 2020, 08:26:08 PM
It never occurred to me that someone would do this on purpose - how awful :(
Is it really? I'm sure you know plenty of people like I do, who crowd themselves into bars, restaurants, and hosted big indoor holiday gatherings...essentially the same thing.
America - Eff Yeah!
Quote from: reinko on December 30, 2020, 09:16:53 PM
Is it really? I'm sure you know plenty of people like I do, who crowd themselves into bars, restaurants, and hosted big indoor holiday gatherings...essentially the same thing.
America - Eff Yeah!
Both are bad but I honestly never thought someone would do something like this on person and it's pretty awful in my opinion. I guess maybe I'm naive to think that someone wouldn't do that though...
Are they an anti vaxxer? Were they trying to take them for friends and family?
The doses were left out to spoil, so they weren't intended for friends and family,
Healthcare workers say 'no thanks' to the COVID vaccine:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-frontline-workers-refuse-covid-201555764.html
Quote from: Eldon on December 31, 2020, 03:25:19 PM
Healthcare workers say 'no thanks' to the COVID vaccine:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-frontline-workers-refuse-covid-201555764.html
I didn't expect 100% compliance, but this just blows my mind.
If it had been approved this past fall before the the safety data had been properly analyzed, I could have understood. I personally was concerned when they were talking approval before the election. But once the companies and NIH made it clear that they weren't going to rush the data analysis or strong-arm the DSMBs, I grew much more open-minded. And once the data were made public, I thought it would be a no-brainer for frontline workers.
This really gives me concern about what we'll see once we get past the 65+ and other high-risk groups.
We've got some real effed-up dopes in this country.
Quote from: MU82 on December 31, 2020, 06:00:41 PM
We've got some real effed-up dopes in this country.
Again, try to hold judgement. For example, I have an older sister in ohio that is an rn at a nursing home. I haven't talked to her yet, but she's already "survived" covid and I wouldn't be surprised if she declined a vaccine thinking that someone else might need "her dose" more.
The logistics have been a nightmare, and those forgoing doses might unwittingly be letting those go to waste (assuming better organization). But the truth is, unless you're directly connected to a hospital or elderly care facility there's not been much planning for this by the states (even though we'd hope otherwise).
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 01, 2021, 04:40:02 AM
Again, try to hold judgement. For example, I have an older sister in ohio that is an rn at a nursing home. I haven't talked to her yet, but she's already "survived" covid and I wouldn't be surprised if she declined a vaccine thinking that someone else might need "her dose" more.
The logistics have been a nightmare, and those forgoing doses might unwittingly be letting those go to waste (assuming better organization). But the truth is, unless you're directly connected to a hospital or elderly care facility there's not been much planning for this by the states (even though we'd hope otherwise).
I wasn't speaking to any particular group of people, rocky. Obviously, your sister has an outstanding reason for making that decision.
Sounds like quite a free-for-all shyte-show being run by DeSantis down in Florida:
TALLAHASSEE, FLA. Terry Beth Hadler was so eager to get a lifesaving COVID-19 vaccination that the 69-year-old piano teacher stood in line overnight in a parking lot with hundreds of other senior citizens.
She wouldn't do it again.
Hadler said that she waited 14 hours and that a brawl nearly erupted before dawn on Tuesday when people cut in line outside the library in Bonita Springs, Florida, where officials were offering shots on a first-come, first-served basis to those 65 or older.
"I'm afraid that the event was a super-spreader," she said. "I was petrified."
The race to vaccinate millions of Americans is off to a slower, messier start than public health officials and leaders of the Trump administration's Operation Warp Speed had expected.
Overworked, underfunded state public health departments are scrambling to patch together plans for administering vaccines. Counties and hospitals have taken different approaches, leading to long lines, confusion, frustration and jammed phone lines. A multitude of logistical concerns have complicated the process of trying to beat back the scourge that has killed over 340,000 Americans.
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is asking for patience, noting the vaccine supply is limited.
"It may not be today for everyone, may not be next week. But over the next many weeks, as long as we continue getting the supply, you're going to have the opportunity to get this," he said Wednesday.
Come one, come all, get your shots! First come, first served! Stand in a super-spreader line for more than half a day! You finally got near the front of the line after 12, 13, 14 hours? Sorry ... we're out of the vaccine ... but come back next week, y'all! Standing in line for 12 hours in the sun is no problem for septuagenarians, anyhoo ... you ain't got nuthin' better to do!"
Maybe at least what's happening in Florida with the roll-out will help other states come up with a better plan.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on January 01, 2021, 09:13:42 AM
Maybe at least what's happening in Florida with the roll-out will help other states come up with a better plan.
Had the same thought.
That being said, I think the vaccine program will be fine once the logistics are sorted out. Just like the testing. It took too long to ramp up, but once it did, things have largely been fine.
So far going very smoothly here. The state has the highest level of utilization of allocated doses. I haven't looked into why it's going well, but I know the local govt and health systems are working together and taking it seriously.
https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/ (https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/)
Well, everything happened so fast that there wasn't really time to come up with a plan.
The Grafton pharmacist should be put in stocks in front of the village hall for everyone to throw curds and cabbage at for a week before going to prison.
My old neighbors where I grew up in Connecticut live in Bonita Springs now.
Quote from: Retire0 on January 01, 2021, 11:26:04 AM
The Grafton pharmacist should be put in stocks in front of the village hall for everyone to throw curds and cabbage at for a week before going to prison.
I am good with that. I might add hospital bed sheets from COVID patients as his toga.
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2021, 11:45:52 AM
I am good with that. I might add hospital bed sheets from COVID patients as his toga.
Covid patients should be allowed to cough in his face.
Or he should have to go work the AFC homes for unleash Diener.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 01, 2021, 10:41:03 AM
So far going very smoothly here. The state has the highest level of utilization of allocated doses. I haven't looked into why it's going well, but I know the local govt and health systems are working together and taking it seriously.
https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/ (https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/whos-next-plans-for-second-round-of-covid-19-vaccines-expected-in-conn-next-week/2394129/)
I think the underlined is a good part of the reason things are going smoothly there. I don't know how well the local government and health systems are working together in FL, but DeSantis has shown a history of stepping in and overruling local actions by mayors and health departments, so I can imagine they're unclear about who is in charge and reluctant to get overruled (again).
The COVID-19 vaccination process is already pretty much a disaster. Romney was right today in saying that we have failed, with the easiest part of the process (frontline workers and long-term care).
You have many entities blatantly violating the priority lists. You have each state doing their own thing for political reasons, you have people camping outside hoping and praying to get a vaccine, and all this is in the easiest part of the vaccination roll out.
What happens when more become available, and there is still no orderly plan. Someone is going to end up being shot camping out in lines fighting over who gets a vaccine.
Not to mention that we have only vaccinated around 20% of the goal amount to this point. All that with ample supply sitting in warehouses.
Not a surprise that this is a failure so far, but the magnitude of the ineptitude so far is blinding.
Well said, forget
Quote from: forgetful on January 01, 2021, 08:42:02 PM
Not a surprise that this is a failure so far, but the magnitude of the ineptitude so far is blinding.
You could say that about almost any part of our COVID response so far. Messaging, PPE acquisition, testing, contact tracing, coordination of lockdowns. The only real success has been vaccine development...so of course we have to screw up the distribution. Ugh...
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 01, 2021, 09:06:19 PM
You could say that about almost any part of our COVID response so far. Messaging, PPE acquisition, testing, contact tracing, coordination of lockdowns. The only real success has been vaccine development...so of course we have to screw up the distribution. Ugh...
Thanks a lot, Obama!
Quote from: forgetful on January 01, 2021, 08:42:02 PM
Not a surprise that this is a failure so far, but the magnitude of the ineptitude so far is blinding.
The magnitude is not really surprising since Trump had always been incompetent. 6 bankruptcies and 7 if you count what he did to the USA.
He's always been the gardener from
Being There . Purple thought he was more than he really was.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 02, 2021, 08:33:40 AM
The magnitude is not really surprising since Trump had always been incompetent. 6 bankruptcies and 7 if you count what he did to the USA.
He's always been the gardener from Being There . Purple thought he was more than he really was.
Finally!!
The perfect analogy.
Quote from: Jockey on January 02, 2021, 11:28:38 AM
Finally!!
The perfect analogy.
It is a great analogy in terms of how others view him - something dramatically greater/smarter than he really is.
But in terms of how he views himself, it's totally wrong if I recall the movie correctly. Didn't the gardener always know he knew was 'just' a gardener, so that he was unaffected (and rather perplexed) by others putting him on a pedestal?
If my recollection is right - spot on in terms of public image, but 180-degree opposite in terms of self-image.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 02, 2021, 12:21:51 PM
It is a great analogy in terms of how others view him - something dramatically greater/smarter than he really is.
But in terms of how he views himself, it's totally wrong if I recall the movie correctly. Didn't the gardener always know he knew was 'just' a gardener, so that he was unaffected (and rather perplexed) by others putting him on a pedestal?
If my recollection is right - spot on in terms of public image, but 180-degree opposite in terms of self-image.
You are correct, Goo.
My dad forwarded this to me. I thought it was spot on:
A message to Vanderbilt University Medical Center and colleagues, patients and friends, from Dr. Jeffrey R. Balser, President & CEO
A Holiday Gift
Against the noisy background of masking debates, surges, flattening curves, warp speed initiatives, conflicting messages, misinformation and political controversies -- not to mention a revolutionary mRNA technology -- millions of people are deciding whether to take the COVID-19 vaccine.
This, however, is clear: In the U.S., more than 325,000 people have died from COVID-19, with over 3,000 people dying each day. Vanderbilt University Medical Center, like other hospitals and health systems across the nation, is experiencing what promises to be a long and very dark winter.
As much as we all might wish, the ills of 2020 will not vanish at the stroke of midnight as we welcome 2021. The next year will be ushered in with record numbers of people still becoming ill and requiring hospitalization — and the death toll will keep rising.
Today we are vaccinating those at greatest risk: the people working at our nation's hospitals and medical centers. But soon there will be sufficient vaccine supplies to begin the much-anticipated process of vaccinating the millions of people living and working throughout our country.
Yet finding that light at the end of the tunnel requires much more than giving two doses to everyone who wants to be vaccinated. As if the most ambitious vaccination effort in human history isn't enough of a challenge, conquering COVID-19 means we need to build a cocoon of safety for those we can't effectively immunize -- our young children and our loved ones with conditions that suppress their immune systems. People who cannot be safeguarded by taking the vaccine themselves, because it isn't yet available to them, or because their immune systems won't respond even if they do take it.
This is why we so desperately need to achieve so-called "herd immunity." An often-discussed term, it's when a sufficient number of us are immune to COVID-19 that indirect protection is provided to those who are not actually immune to the disease. Essentially, it's when so many people are immune that the virus can't spread through the population. Achieving herd immunity for COVID-19 is a huge challenge. Unlike the flu, where many of us have some level of immunity from years of exposure to similar flu strains, this is a new virus for all of us so the projections show we need 70-90% of the population to be vaccinated, to protect those who cannot protect themselves.
Given the COVID-19 vaccines are more than 90% effective, it is understandable that many people will take the vaccine to protect themselves. But we also know that many people — up to half of all Americans in some surveys — are considering not taking it. The reasons range from concerns about the newness of the vaccine and its safety, to general mistrust of research stemming from historical abuses such as the Tuskegee syphilis study, to skepticism about whether COVID-19 is even a serious problem.
So, if the only rationale to take the vaccine is "I will be protected," then how do we convince those already reluctant to get vaccinated, especially when their personal risk of becoming seriously ill with COVID-19 may be small?
Just as Lincoln opined in his first inaugural address, this is a time for us to express "the better angels of our nature." Beyond protecting ourselves directly, taking the vaccine to help achieve herd immunity isn't an abstraction of epidemiology and science — it is a work of compassion. For those healthy and young, it's a selfless act: "I'm doing this for you, even more than for me." It's an expression of concern for someone requiring immunosuppressants after an organ transplant whom we don't even know. It's an expression of care for someone who has been unemployed since the pandemic began, now struggling with food insecurity and homelessness.
It is this compassion for all in the face of uncertainty that we are asking everyone in our country to embrace. During World War II many of our citizens sent their family members overseas to fight in a war that threatened our way of life. Of the 16 million Americans who served in our military forces during the war, over 400,000 died, so the chances of dying were in retrospect about 3%. That's not much different than the average risk of dying, across all ages and conditions, when someone has been diagnosed with COVID-19 in the U.S. Wouldn't we agree the pandemic threatens our way of life today, causing the most unemployment since the Great Depression and more than 325,000 deaths so far?
Compassion flows from understanding, and we need to build that understanding with our neighbors, friends and family. And we need to listen.
Many people have fears about taking this vaccine. It is comforting that it has been tested exhaustively in many thousands of people, with clinical trials that are even larger and more diverse than those we have used for vaccines in the past. But it is still the case that the technology is new and we completed the work in record time — and for some, that's unsettling. And there is always an element of faith when people take a new treatment, including a vaccine.
However, what feels to many of us like the "sudden" appearance of two remarkably effective RNA-based vaccines isn't very surprising at all. It's the result of decades of public investment in government-funded research, alongside investments by industry and foundations, coupled with painstaking work by thousands of researchers over decades. This is no different than landing on the moon or sequencing the genome. Much to celebrate, but also based on our history of swift scientific innovation in this country, practically inevitable.
We also need to engage our communities by singing, not shouting. Most people are not looking for a lecture. Instead, people want us to listen and to hear what they're not saying: is it the nitty-gritty science they want, or is it validation that it's OK to be apprehensive? Are they looking for someone who empathizes and understands they're afraid — a fear that may be more agonizing to them than COVID-19?
This is one of those communication challenges where we need to harmonize like a chorus. The beauty of a chorus is that while everyone is singing from the same musical composition, the notes are not the same for each member. The full range of tones, with varied pitches, intensities and timbres, all create the resonating mixture of sound that attracts us to listen and holds our attention. Our diversity as a nation provides that complex range of singing voices, with varied communication styles and personal experiences — all influenced by our races, ages, gender preferences, and social and political backgrounds. Our chorus of perspectives is essential to making the case for immunization.
And finally — what better message at the holiday season? Before we can all remove our masks and be confident that we are truly caring for our neighbor, we need to give everyone a gift — including many people we don't even know. The gift of vaccinating ourselves.
For more information, please visit vumc.org/coronavirus.
Sincerely,
Jeff Balser Signature
Jeff Balser, MD, PhD
President and CEO, Vanderbilt University Medical Center
Dean, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine
That is awesome. Thanks for sharing, chick!
You can't tell me what to do with my body! This guy is a commie. I'm not a sheeple. Freedom!
Obviously I'm being sarcastic, but sadly a huge chunk of the country actually feels that way. Add the incompetent distribution and it will be a long year. And for someone like me that falls into the category of needing the herd immunity, it makes me angry.
Thanks for posting this chick!
Quote from: pbiflyer on January 03, 2021, 08:39:18 AM
You can't tell me what to do with my body! This guy is a commie. I'm not a sheeple. Freedom!
Obviously I'm being sarcastic, but sadly a huge chunk of the country actually feels that way. Add the incompetent distribution and it will be a long year. And for someone like me that falls into the category of needing the herd immunity, it makes me angry.
Thanks for posting this chick!
Seriously it is such an easy decision. amazing how ignorrant people can be.
Quote from: injuryBug on January 03, 2021, 11:17:28 AM
Seriously it is such an easy decision. amazing how ignorrant people can be.
It is amazing. It is absolutely not surprising.
Called the Vaccine Appointment number in Lee County Florida today. Minutes of busy signals/call can't go through but I eventually got into the queue. They took my information (birthdate, phone #) via tape, said they would call me back. 5 hours later a real person called me back. I have a 9am appointment for Wednesday (day after tomorrow).
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 04, 2021, 03:08:45 PM
Called the Vaccine Appointment number in Lee County Florida today. Minutes of busy signals/call can't go through but I eventually got into the queue. They took my information (birthdate, phone #) via tape, said they would call me back. 5 hours later a real person called me back. I have a 9am appointment for Wednesday (day after tomorrow).
Congrats Lenny. Exciting news
Good man, Lenny.
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.
Good luck, Lenny.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 04, 2021, 03:28:42 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.
For the 5000 who were lucky enough to get appointments today, good news. But for every lucky one, many (30 or 40?) didn't get through. Unfortunately, supply still well short of demand.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 04, 2021, 04:08:17 PM
For the 5000 who were lucky enough to get appointments today, good news. But for every lucky one, many (30 or 40?) didn't get through. Unfortunately, supply still well short of demand.
What's the Florida policy for essential workers?
Quote from: Jockey on January 04, 2021, 05:41:36 PM
What's the Florida policy for essential workers?
Health care workers and anyone working in nursing homes were first, along with nursing home residents. Next come seniors (65+). Then essential, non health care employees (teachers, police, fire fighters, grocery store employees, etc.). Then the public at large. At least that's my understanding.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 04, 2021, 09:11:59 PM
Health care workers and anyone working in nursing homes were first, along with nursing home residents. Next come seniors (65+). Then essential, non health care employees (teachers, police, fire fighters, grocery store employees, etc.). Then the public at large. At least that's my understanding.
There are a lot of frontline health-care workers that have not had an opportunity to get vaccinated in Florida yet. They just aren't allocating the vaccine to areas where it is still needed by healthcare workers.
Similar story in other states.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 04, 2021, 03:28:42 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.
It goes county by county. Ours is a cluster. But hey, in some counties here you can book your vaccination and a concert with one fee!
Florida counties use Eventbrite to schedule COVID-19 vaccine appointments
https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/4/22213307/covid-vaccine-florida-eventbrite
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 04, 2021, 03:28:42 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.
Or not:
'It's a disgrace': Seniors rage over rollout of coronavirus vaccine
Distributing the coronavirus vaccine to the state's 4.4 million seniors appears to be going slowly.
Arthur and Barbara Tolkin have a new morning ritual. They get up early, grab their phones and start making calls, desperately trying to schedule an appointment to get a coronavirus vaccine.
Although the North Palm Beach couple have made scores of phone calls to health-care providers in Palm Beach County and beyond, the results have been the same.
"You cannot get through," said 86-year-old Barbara Tolkin, who is recovering from open heart surgery. "It's horrendous. It's a disgrace."She is not alone in her view.
Countless other senior citizens throughout the county have tried and failed to successfully navigate jammed phone lines to get information about the long-hoped-for vaccine.
"Nobody knows anything," said Mildred Smiley, an 80-plus widow who lives west of Boynton Beach. "My own doctors know nothing. Hospitals know nothing. Health clinics know nothing.The county had to scrap its initial vaccine rollout plan, which included first responders, after Gov. Ron DeSantis on Dec. 23 unexpectedly announced seniors would join health-care workers and nursing home residents and staff at the front of the line.
So is the second shot booster the exact same as the first shot? Or is the dosage, etc different? If getting the first shot is this much of a free for all, how are we going to manage making sure people that have gotten the first shot get their booster within the acceptable time period per the clinical trials, and also distinguish those folks from the crush of people still trying to get their first dose?
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 05, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
So is the second shot booster the exact same as the first shot? Or is the dosage, etc different? If getting the first shot is this much of a free for all, how are we going to manage making sure people that have gotten the first shot get their booster within the acceptable time period per the clinical trials, and also distinguish those folks from the crush of people still trying to get their first dose?
When you receive your first round, you get scheduled for the 2nd.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 04, 2021, 03:28:42 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.
Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.
Many states are similar. Somehow "concierge doctors" are getting supplies that they are authorized to give to seniors or people with pre-existing conditions, while individual counties can't get doses delivered to vaccinate their first responders and critical hospital staff.
Good news for people thought that can/want to get on a list. The CDC list of conditions is pretty lengthy, and includes things like being a current or former smoker, having asthma, high blood pressure, and others.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
So pretty much most people can qualify if they want to.
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2021, 12:43:11 PM
Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.
Many states are similar. Somehow "concierge doctors" are getting supplies that they are authorized to give to seniors or people with pre-existing conditions, while individual counties can't get doses delivered to vaccinate their first responders and critical hospital staff.
Good news for people thought that can/want to get on a list. The CDC list of conditions is pretty lengthy, and includes things like being a current or former smoker, having asthma, high blood pressure, and others.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
So pretty much most people can qualify if they want to.
OK thank you.
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2021, 12:43:11 PM
Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.
Many states are similar. Somehow "concierge doctors" are getting supplies that they are authorized to give to seniors or people with pre-existing conditions, while individual counties can't get doses delivered to vaccinate their first responders and critical hospital staff.
Good news for people thought that can/want to get on a list. The CDC list of conditions is pretty lengthy, and includes things like being a current or former smoker, having asthma, high blood pressure, and others.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
So pretty much most people can qualify if they want to.
Source?
Health care worker getting my first round of Moderna today.
I know it doesn't seem like it, but its coming everyone. Just gotta hang in there a little longer.
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2021, 12:43:11 PM
Nope. They are also directing doses specifically to high income areas in much higher supplies. So if you are in a county with high wealth, you can get a vaccine. If you are a first responder in areas of low wealth...you don't matter and are still waiting.
What could be more Amurican than this?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 05, 2021, 12:49:42 PM
Source?
It's difficult to provide a formal source for this, what I can do is give you what I am basing this off of.
1. I have friends/colleagues that have their physicians associated with a ritzy private hospital. They had been notified that they are eligible for the vaccine. That hospital is now providing 700-1000 doses a day, limited only by available doctors to inject in arm. It is only available though to patients currently associated with a doctor in their hospital network, regardless of status. So I have friends who are frontline workers, that can't get a vaccine, but a 30-year old obese individual with a doctor at that hospital is getting it.
2. In my area, family practices have started to like to go to a "concierge" model. Where even if you have insurance, you must pay an extra fee (often $10k+ per year) to be a part of their practice. I have friends in 2-states (Florida being one of them) that have been told they can make an appointment for their vaccine and will be getting it this week.
That led me to investigate a little deeper, as these types of things intrigue me.
In some areas they publicly disclose where doses (and how many) have been allocated. I've looked through some of those lists and you can see some concierge practices listed. It is slightly above board as a friend explained, here is the trick.
First, your clinic applies to be a vaccine provider. You then justify that you need doses to vaccinate your front-line workers. If approved, the smallest order is for 100-doses of Moderna. You then get allocated 100-doses. But because you are a small concierge practice with minimal staff/doctors, you maybe use up 40 doses for staff. You are then required to use up the remaining doses so they do not go to waste, where you make an effort to follow the guidelines (currently phase 1a and 1b).
You then use those remaining doses for your high-paying clients that "loosely" fit the CDC guidelines, or if you have no one else in the priority categories you are allowed to call family and friends to ensure that they do not go to waste.
So technically above board, and following the guidelines, but then you have 100 doses going to a concierge practice, when a neighboring rural county can't vaccinate their front line medical workers.
It is a bit anecdotal in that the data I can see is limited.
While Florida and specifically Palm Beach county remain a cluster, I was able to get my 96 year old dad an appointment to get a shot at the local VA. No wait on the phone. Multiple appointment time options.
So, to the vets out there, it may be worth a shot (pun intended) to reach out to your local VA.
Another factor driving inequity are the algorithms used to decide which locations/counties get vaccines.
Most states use an algorithm that includes storage availability. The low-temperature freezers needed to store the vaccine are not traditionally available in some poorer locations, and they didn't have more money to go out and buy a bunch.
Other wealthier locations stockpiled -80 C freezers. They now benefit from the algorithm, as they can prove significant unused storage capacity.
Quote from: forgetful on January 05, 2021, 03:24:57 PM
It's difficult to provide a formal source for this, what I can do is give you what I am basing this off of.
1. I have friends/colleagues that have their physicians associated with a ritzy private hospital. They had been notified that they are eligible for the vaccine. That hospital is now providing 700-1000 doses a day, limited only by available doctors to inject in arm. It is only available though to patients currently associated with a doctor in their hospital network, regardless of status. So I have friends who are frontline workers, that can't get a vaccine, but a 30-year old obese individual with a doctor at that hospital is getting it.
2. In my area, family practices have started to like to go to a "concierge" model. Where even if you have insurance, you must pay an extra fee (often $10k+ per year) to be a part of their practice. I have friends in 2-states (Florida being one of them) that have been told they can make an appointment for their vaccine and will be getting it this week.
That led me to investigate a little deeper, as these types of things intrigue me.
In some areas they publicly disclose where doses (and how many) have been allocated. I've looked through some of those lists and you can see some concierge practices listed. It is slightly above board as a friend explained, here is the trick.
First, your clinic applies to be a vaccine provider. You then justify that you need doses to vaccinate your front-line workers. If approved, the smallest order is for 100-doses of Moderna. You then get allocated 100-doses. But because you are a small concierge practice with minimal staff/doctors, you maybe use up 40 doses for staff. You are then required to use up the remaining doses so they do not go to waste, where you make an effort to follow the guidelines (currently phase 1a and 1b).
You then use those remaining doses for your high-paying clients that "loosely" fit the CDC guidelines, or if you have no one else in the priority categories you are allowed to call family and friends to ensure that they do not go to waste.
So technically above board, and following the guidelines, but then you have 100 doses going to a concierge practice, when a neighboring rural county can't vaccinate their front line medical workers.
It is a bit anecdotal in that the data I can see is limited.
I have no doubt that some states are doing that. But here in MN, money and prestige seem not to be factors. Mayo Clinic is a vaccination site, sees lots of high profile patients and has been prominent in the fight against COVID. Yet when the Pfizer supply began coming out, Mayo reportedly got proportionately less vaccine than some smaller, more rural places. The state's rationale - and a legitimate one if they have the data to support it - was that staff at smaller facilities have to multitask more often, so larger proportions are likely to work directly with COVID patients (as opposed to Mayo's more specialized practice).
Probably an outlier, though....
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19
Quote from: shoothoops on January 05, 2021, 09:06:17 PM
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19
Good lord. How immoral.
Quote from: shoothoops on January 05, 2021, 09:06:17 PM
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19
Anything gonna happen to those business/executives for employing those folks? No?
Quote from: shoothoops on January 05, 2021, 09:06:17 PM
Nebraska Governor says undocumented workers at meatpacking plants won't be given the vaccine.
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1346525695879614467?s=19
Appalling and inhumane....
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 05, 2021, 10:06:41 PM
Anything gonna happen to those business/executives for employing those folks? No?
Tax cuts?
Had a 9am appointment to be vaccinated this morning. Arrived 25 minutes early, had the needle in my arm at 8:55. Well staffed, courteous, extremely efficient. I was issued a card which allows me to set up my 2nd dose any time 28+ days from now. Major kudos to our governor - there were problems with the rollout last week, but the site where I was vaccinated was beyond any of my hopes/expectations. Probably won't be enough to impress CNN but it certainly did me.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 06, 2021, 09:16:43 AM
Had a 9am appointment to be vaccinated this morning. Arrived 25 minutes early, had the needle in my arm at 8:55. Well staffed, courteous, extremely efficient. I was issued a card which allows me to set up my 2nd dose any time 28+ days from now. Major kudos to our governor - there were problems with the rollout last week, but the site where I was vaccinated was beyond any of my hopes/expectations. Probably won't be enough to impress CNN but it certainly did me.
Way to go Lenny.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/01/05/florida-nursing-home-covid-vaccine/
Congrats, Lenny.
You old guys need to be careful. ;D
JB lowering the age for the next round in Illinois to 65, originally it was 75. Statistics show that the average of death for Hispanics and African -Americans is a lot lower than for whites, so he is worried about disparate impact. Said that Illinois is about 1/3 through the first round, health care workers and nursing home residents.
My wife got an email from her school district this week that they expect to begin vaccinating the teachers the 3rd or 4th week of January.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 06, 2021, 03:27:12 PM
My wife got an email from her school district this week that they expect to begin vaccinating the teachers the 3rd or 4th week of January.
That's good to hear.
I haven't heard yet if they plan on giving preference for vaccinations to teachers. I know it was mentioned at a school board committee meeting last night that the Waukesha school board wanted to ask the County to give some kind of preference to teachers but I'm not sure if anything will happen with that. And there's also the problem where the vaccination rollout in Wisconsin is behind most other Midwest states: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/05/wisconsin-covid-19-vaccine-rollout-schedule-behind-midwest-states-health-care-workers-get-vaccinated/4127810001/
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 06, 2021, 03:27:12 PM
My wife got an email from her school district this week that they expect to begin vaccinating the teachers the 3rd or 4th week of January.
Great to hear. Glad Connecticut seems to have its act together.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1347235949500116994
So what Florida is doing is what he's recommending if I understand everything correctly??
Shocking that we can't find enough healthcare workers to take the vaccine that we now have stockpiles scattered across the country.
A Dallas area hospital is now offering vaccines to extended family of front line workers due to excessive vaccines.
Florida is still a cluster. Unless of course, you are a rich white person. In a couple areas, they have skipped to the front of the line.
Quote from: pbiflyer on January 08, 2021, 08:52:38 AM
A Dallas area hospital is now offering vaccines to extended family of front line workers due to excessive vaccines.
Florida is still a cluster. Unless of course, you are a rich white person. In a couple areas, they have skipped to the front of the line.
Interesting, do you have a source on that (or name of hospital)? Seems like the Dallas area was likely well supplied.
Wonder if this is a people turning down the vaccine issue, or just a large supply.
Quote from: forgetful on January 08, 2021, 09:21:45 AM
Interesting, do you have a source on that (or name of hospital)? Seems like the Dallas area was likely well supplied.
Wonder if this is a people turning down the vaccine issue, or just a large supply.
Source is a nurse there. Children's Medical Center.
I was always confused why the front line workers got it, but not their immediate families. Seems that just like like bubbles, you need to create one with the vaccines.
Quote from: pbiflyer on January 08, 2021, 09:49:19 AM
Source is a nurse there. Children's Medical Center.
I was always confused why the front line workers got it, but not their immediate families. Seems that just like like bubbles, you need to create one with the vaccines.
The general argument against immediate family members is that if you protect the frontline worker, there isn't a risk to the family anymore.
Regarding Children's. It appears this isn't an example of effective distribution, rather oddities in the process.
Children's doesn't vaccinate the general public. Their doses were earmarked for frontline workers employed by Children's or associated clinics. Any excess is required to be used, but they are not vaccinating the general public.
Usually, they would then move on to patients of their associated clinics who are eligible. But, since the vaccines are not authorized for children, their patient population is absent. That means they are allowed to use it for extended family. It also means, that there are front-line workers employed by other clinics, etc., that still haven't been vaccinated, but are not eligible at Children's either.
It is one of the reasons that an organized public distribution/vaccination would have been more efficient at targeting at-risk groups.
https://mobile.twitter.com/winsjuliet/status/1347584146986692609
Stories everywhere about vaccines going to waste and mismanagement of the roll out in NY and now the above story.
Stunning that state leadership continues to dig their heels in by not allowing a little more flexibility to who can get it right now.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on January 08, 2021, 11:41:11 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/winsjuliet/status/1347584146986692609
Stories everywhere about vaccines going to waste and mismanagement of the roll out in NY and now the above story.
Stunning that state leadership continues to dig their heels in by not allowing a little more flexibility to who can get it right now.
Lots of added levels of bureaucracy in NY. And then in other states where it's more free-for-all, you've got people jumping the line.
Tough situation to handle.
I noticed you haven't said anything about line jumpers. Weird.
Quote from: forgetful on January 08, 2021, 10:18:39 AM
It appears this isn't an example of effective distribution, rather oddities in the process.
[snip]
It is one of the reasons that an organized public distribution/vaccination would have been more efficient at targeting at-risk groups.
You're correct, but unfortunately, I think the "oddities" are widespread.
What I'm seeing (from a good personal source), is that states are realizing their distribution plan was insufficient, they aren't getting the quantities out that they need, instead they've been sitting in storage, so they're offering up quantities to more localized healthcare practices now to ramp up "shots in arms". This initial drop to the localized places is intended for healthcare workers, but with the footnote of "If you can succeed in getting these used, you'll get more to distribute next week".
Considering that the surgeon general's recent comments about vaccine phases "If the demand isn't there in 1a, go to 1b and continue on down. If the demand isn't there in one location, move those vaccines to another location.""
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/world/the-us-surgeon-general-warns-not-to-let-priority-guidelines-slow-down-vaccinations.html
They're still a priority list, but states are quickly willing to abandon that to get the vaccine out (as they should...I think).
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 08, 2021, 11:45:26 AM
Lots of added levels of bureaucracy in NY. And then in other states where it's more free-for-all, you've got people jumping the line.
Tough situation to handle.
I noticed you haven't said anything about line jumpers. Weird.
Why is that weird? I frankly don't care about line jumpers as long as vaccines aren't going to waste. If the goal is to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible hearing these stories of wasted vials is maddening.
Do I think the line jumpers are a bunch of assholes sure but that seems to be the least of our problems right now.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 08, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
They're still a priority list, but states are quickly willing to abandon that to get the vaccine out (as they should...I think).
I agree with this...once the nursing homes and hospital workers have a reasonable shot its time to create demand by opening up to more people. It's the only way these clinics, pharmacy's, etc are going to get to scale.
You can keep a priority list while doing this....so hopefully it doesnt turn into a free for all.
A head of a local health system was on the news yesterday, and you could tell he was extremely frustrated with the State of Wisconsin and how it is managing its priority lists.
I am all for priorities, but I am also for blurring the lines a little if it gets it out.
Come on guys, what did you expect? We've only had 10 months to plan a vaccine distribution network!
The tweet you linked to is now gone, apparently.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 08, 2021, 01:02:06 PM
Come on guys, what did you expect? We've only had 10 months to plan a vaccine distribution network!
Well I am willing to be a little forgiving due to the unprecedented nature of what we are trying to accomplish here. But I also think its important to learn and adjust on the fly. But those are two qualities that bureaucracies lack.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 08, 2021, 01:02:06 PM
Come on guys, what did you expect? We've only had 10 months to plan a vaccine distribution network!
Wisconsin Dept. of Health Services is controlling the distribution in Wisconsin. Pretty sure they're are getting directives from Worst Gov. Evers, aina?
This is the largest vaccination effort in our country's history.
Priority lists are important, but at the end of the day, we really just need to stick as many needles into arms as we can. I would rather have the problem of line-jumping than seeing vaccine going unused.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 08, 2021, 01:27:39 PM
Wisconsin Dept. of Health Services is controlling the distribution in Wisconsin. Pretty sure they're are getting directives from Worst Gov. Evers, aina?
I'm sure you have gone to the local free clinic and offered your experience with a syringe.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 08, 2021, 01:34:03 PM
This is the largest vaccination effort in our country's history.
Seems like, I dunno know, maybe the largest ever vaccination effort should have been coordinated by our largest bureaucracy then.
But you know, golf.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 08, 2021, 01:34:03 PM
This is the largest vaccination effort in our country's history.
Priority lists are important, but at the end of the day, we really just need to stick as many needles into arms as we can. I would rather have the problem of line-jumping than seeing vaccine going unused.
Bigger than polio? Or the first flu vaccine? (Serious questions)
Off the top of my head, without looking at numbers or Wikipedia or Google, I would think polio might be comparable, but polio was perhaps easier because it targeted children and we were vaccinated, at least as I remember, lined up in school. Everybody in the school got it at the same time.
I don't remember anything happening with the flu vaccine frankly, except that I got it for free at work.
Quote from: tower912 on January 08, 2021, 01:40:39 PM
I'm sure you have gone to the local free clinic and offered your experience with a syringe.
I've heard that the legislature in Wisconsin is proposing to adopt language from other states (California, for example) that would authorize dentists to administer the vaccine. Makes sense, as dentists are pretty handy with syringes.
I would accept into my gum. Walk out of their like JarJarBinks after getting too close to a pod-racer.
4never going full Dr. Scrivello.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on January 08, 2021, 03:53:10 PM
I've heard that the legislature in Wisconsin is proposing to adopt language from other states (California, for example) that would authorize dentists to administer the vaccine. Makes sense, as dentists are pretty handy with syringes.
It's all up to the states, in many, RNs, Physicians Assistants, and Medical Assistants, can all give shots (especially vaccines). Though some states don't allow those groups to do it. So if you're in a state that severely limits who is allowed to handle an "injection" then yes, it's possible dentists might be able to help. Though in many states there's plenty people available to give injections, but those people have no vaccines to give.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 08, 2021, 04:52:38 PM
It's all up to the states, in many, RNs, Physicians Assistants, and Medical Assistants, can all give shots (especially vaccines). Though some states don't allow those groups to do it. So if you're in a state that severely limits who is allowed to handle an "injection" then yes, it's possible dentists might be able to help. Though in many states there's plenty people available to give injections, but those people have no vaccines to give.
I have gotten flu shots on several occasions from Marquette nursing students. They have traditionally offered them on Parents Weekend.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 08, 2021, 03:31:41 PM
Bigger than polio? Or the first flu vaccine? (Serious questions)
Yes.
The US polio vaccination effort was the biggest before this, but the population back in the 50s and 60s was less than half of what it is today. And there were supply shortages and issues with unexpected deaths from the beginning, so it went in fits and starts for a few years. Finally, I believe they generally just vaccinated children. All told, a huge effort, but far more gradual and in a more limited population.
Flu vaccines - even for the most serious flu epidemics - typically are given only to middle-aged people and older (plus anyone at high risk). Again, a far more limited population.
This one is currently targeting everyone in America above age 18, with the hope of getting safety and efficacy data on kids soon so they may be added as well. If things go well, we might vaccinate upwards of 300 million people in the next several months...
more than double the entire US population during the polio epidemic.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 08, 2021, 04:52:38 PM
It's all up to the states, in many, RNs, Physicians Assistants, and Medical Assistants, can all give shots (especially vaccines). Though some states don't allow those groups to do it. So if you're in a state that severely limits who is allowed to handle an "injection" then yes, it's possible dentists might be able to help. Though in many states there's plenty people available to give injections, but those people have no vaccines to give.
Pharmacists are also allowed to administer vaccines under various circumstances in all 50 states. In normal times, there are limitations on types of vaccines or age groups, but this could easily be broadened to assist in the COVID vaccination effort.
Do we have enough vaccines available that a lack of people able to administer the vaccines is an issue?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 08, 2021, 05:36:47 PM
Pharmacists are also allowed to administer vaccines under various circumstances in all 50 states. In normal times, there are limitations on types of vaccines or age groups, but this could easily be broadened to assist in the COVID vaccination effort.
Hah yes, shouldn't have left them out. I have a few pharmacist friends, and they are some of my close sources :)
Quote from: BLM on January 08, 2021, 06:16:54 PM
Do we have enough vaccines available that a lack of people able to administer the vaccines is an issue?
No. And that's really my point. Sure dentists are an option, but most states should have plenty of people available (though I don't know all state restrictions).
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 08, 2021, 06:22:05 PM
No. And that's really my point. Sure dentists are an option, but most states should have plenty of people available (though I don't know all state restrictions).
At this point, I am fairly certain you are correct. There might be limited areas where resources are stretched thin because COVID is surging (LA County) or rural areas where providers are generally scarce, but by and large the biggest limitation right now is in the supply chain. As time goes by, that could change.
Bartenders have a lot of experience administering shots.
Just sayin'.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 04, 2021, 03:28:42 PM
Honestly Florida may have this thing right.
No.
Florida Sen. Rick Scott on Thursday called for a congressional investigation into what he called "vaccine distribution mismanagement," following multiple reports that a West Palm Beach nursing home and assisted-living facility steered highly sought after vaccine shots to its board members and major donors.
Quote from: Jockey on January 08, 2021, 11:41:32 PM
No.
Florida Sen. Rick Scott on Thursday called for a congressional investigation into what he called "vaccine distribution mismanagement," following multiple reports that a West Palm Beach nursing home and assisted-living facility steered highly sought after vaccine shots to its board members and major donors.
When Rick Scott thinks you're slimy........
Quote from: Jockey on January 08, 2021, 11:41:32 PM
No.
Florida Sen. Rick Scott on Thursday called for a congressional investigation into what he called "vaccine distribution mismanagement," following multiple reports that a West Palm Beach nursing home and assisted-living facility steered highly sought after vaccine shots to its board members and major donors.
Yeah, I stated this five days ago when some of the bottlenecks were worse and before forgetful ran through why it was a problem.
But I do think overall that states need to loosen up the reigns a bit.
Quote from: MU82 on January 08, 2021, 09:41:40 PM
Bartenders have a lot of experience administering shots.
Just sayin'.
Heyo
Quote from: forgetful on January 08, 2021, 10:18:39 AM
The general argument against immediate family members is that if you protect the frontline worker, there isn't a risk to the family anymore.
Regarding Children's. It appears this isn't an example of effective distribution, rather oddities in the process.
Children's doesn't vaccinate the general public. Their doses were earmarked for frontline workers employed by Children's or associated clinics. Any excess is required to be used, but they are not vaccinating the general public.
Usually, they would then move on to patients of their associated clinics who are eligible. But, since the vaccines are not authorized for children, their patient population is absent. That means they are allowed to use it for extended family. It also means, that there are front-line workers employed by other clinics, etc., that still haven't been vaccinated, but are not eligible at Children's either.
It is one of the reasons that an organized public distribution/vaccination would have been more efficient at targeting at-risk groups.
Thanks for explaining that.
A local Palm Beach wife of an oral surgeon was showing off her vaccine. She explained that because her husband has privileges at the local hospital, staff was able to get it. She didn't explain how her and her son got it.
Good year for her son, got the shot and a Porsche for his birthday.
How exactly do you "show off" a vaccine?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 09, 2021, 12:18:55 PM
How exactly do you "show off" a vaccine?
Maybe she got an "I vaccinated" sticker, sane as what you get when you vote.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 09, 2021, 12:18:55 PM
How exactly do you "show off" a vaccine?
Wore a sleeveless top, and kept the band-aid on?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 09, 2021, 05:25:41 AM
Yeah, I stated this five days ago when some of the bottlenecks were worse and before forgetful ran through why it was a problem.
But I do think overall that states need to loosen up the reigns a bit.
Thanks for the reply. I agree with your statement.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 09, 2021, 12:18:55 PM
How exactly do you "show off" a vaccine?
Take the hat off the second head growing out of your shoulder.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 08, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
You're correct, but unfortunately, I think the "oddities" are widespread.
What I'm seeing (from a good personal source), is that states are realizing their distribution plan was insufficient, they aren't getting the quantities out that they need, instead they've been sitting in storage, so they're offering up quantities to more localized healthcare practices now to ramp up "shots in arms". This initial drop to the localized places is intended for healthcare workers, but with the footnote of "If you can succeed in getting these used, you'll get more to distribute next week".
Considering that the surgeon general's recent comments about vaccine phases "If the demand isn't there in 1a, go to 1b and continue on down. If the demand isn't there in one location, move those vaccines to another location.""
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/world/the-us-surgeon-general-warns-not-to-let-priority-guidelines-slow-down-vaccinations.html
They're still a priority list, but states are quickly willing to abandon that to get the vaccine out (as they should...I think).
I waited a bit to respond to this to reflect on it a bit. The bolded I think is correct, based on where we are now. The problem is, we shouldn't be at this point now. People dropped the ball. I'll explain why. First, the timeline to get this vaccine out was always 12-18 months, so it was expected to likely be available now, unless things went woefully wrong. This wasn't unexpected.
That means they had months, and months to make a concerted nationwide plan. That plan could/should include nationwide priority groups. We should have been: 1) Funding a plan, and 2) Developing a detailed plan for the past 9-10 months. We really didn't. States weren't given sufficient funds, DC punted on executing a top down plan, instead let states develop their own. That means we have 50 different policies on priorities, and 50 different plans on delivery. Really the worst way to set up one of the largest vaccination efforts undertaken.
What they should have done starting back in February/March.
0a) Dedicate massive funding to state and local levels for all of the below. Plan at the federal level.
0b) Enact the defense production act to produce more vaccines faster.
1) Develop a concerted nationwide top down plan, that includes priority lists.
2) Develop a national registry for signing up for each priority group. This could have been done months ago.
3) States/counties would then have the priority list of all people desiring the vaccine already ready, and could work down the list when vaccines were available.
4) States in consultation with the US government, should have established dedicated vaccination sites in all counties (think polling places/precincts), and planned staffing. They would know how many vaccines need to go to each precinct already based on the national registry, and could use that to deliver vaccines.
5) When vaccines are shipped, the registration lists should be consulted, and people notified to set up an appointment in the next 72-hours. If they do not show, move down the list. Give people the opportunity to keep near the top of the list if they contact in the 72-hour window and indicate a time conflict.
6) Execute. Use national guard if necessary to streamline process. If we can get 160M to vote over a couple week period, we can deliver vaccines in the same manner.
Instead, we didn't do any of this. Priority groups were decided days/weeks before vaccination. States were told they were on their own to plan how to execute this, and were not given adequate funding. On top of that, even after they had plans, the Govt' unexplainably changed the plan on how many vaccines were shipped. it became a cluster F.
So now, yes, abandon the priorities if needed to just get shots in arms. That is better than a failed rollout.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 06, 2021, 03:27:12 PM
My wife got an email from her school district this week that they expect to begin vaccinating the teachers the 3rd or 4th week of January.
Yesterday it was announced that the state has completed the first shot at every nursing home in the state. The first state to do so.
Quote from: forgetful on January 09, 2021, 02:35:57 PM
I waited a bit to respond to this to reflect on it a bit. The bolded I think is correct, based on where we are now. The problem is, we shouldn't be at this point now. People dropped the ball. I'll explain why. First, the timeline to get this vaccine out was always 12-18 months, so it was expected to likely be available now, unless things went woefully wrong. This wasn't unexpected.
That means they had months, and months to make a concerted nationwide plan. That plan could/should include nationwide priority groups. We should have been: 1) Funding a plan, and 2) Developing a detailed plan for the past 9-10 months. We really didn't. States weren't given sufficient funds, DC punted on executing a top down plan, instead let states develop their own. That means we have 50 different policies on priorities, and 50 different plans on delivery. Really the worst way to set up one of the largest vaccination efforts undertaken.
What they should have done starting back in February/March.
0a) Dedicate massive funding to state and local levels for all of the below. Plan at the federal level.
0b) Enact the defense production act to produce more vaccines faster.
1) Develop a concerted nationwide top down plan, that includes priority lists.
2) Develop a national registry for signing up for each priority group. This could have been done months ago.
3) States/counties would then have the priority list of all people desiring the vaccine already ready, and could work down the list when vaccines were available.
4) States in consultation with the US government, should have established dedicated vaccination sites in all counties (think polling places/precincts), and planned staffing. They would know how many vaccines need to go to each precinct already based on the national registry, and could use that to deliver vaccines.
5) When vaccines are shipped, the registration lists should be consulted, and people notified to set up an appointment in the next 72-hours. If they do not show, move down the list. Give people the opportunity to keep near the top of the list if they contact in the 72-hour window and indicate a time conflict.
6) Execute. Use national guard if necessary to streamline process. If we can get 160M to vote over a couple week period, we can deliver vaccines in the same manner.
Instead, we didn't do any of this. Priority groups were decided days/weeks before vaccination. States were told they were on their own to plan how to execute this, and were not given adequate funding. On top of that, even after they had plans, the Govt' unexplainably changed the plan on how many vaccines were shipped. it became a cluster F.
So now, yes, abandon the priorities if needed to just get shots in arms. That is better than a failed rollout.
Wow, you're a real dreamer, Forgetful. ;)
Of course every recommendation you gave is spot on. Sadly, we ALL knew there was a 0% chance of this being done by the trump/pence team. I have always been tough on trump and even accused him of being a mass killer. But let's not let pence off the hook. Unlike trump, pence is smart enough to know what to do and what is right. He was utterly unwilling to put his christian beliefs into action because his sole purpose was to glorify trump.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 09, 2021, 01:38:48 PM
Wore a sleeveless top, and kept the band-aid on?
Occum, is that you?
Yes, obviously that is what she did.
Gonna bee a bitch rippin' dat band-aide off if she's got harey arms, hey?
Quote from: forgetful on January 09, 2021, 02:35:57 PM
6) Execute. Use national guard if necessary to streamline process. If we can get 160M to vote over a couple week period, we can deliver vaccines in the same manner.
Dang, I got to this one and though we were gonna shoot people that refused a vaccine ;D
But seriously, I generally agree. I'm disappointed there wasn't a better "national" plan, I also hold states accountable if they didn't come up with a good plan on their own (and many didn't).
This appears to be the plan in New York. Cuomo overthinking.
https://youtu.be/qhxlZC8BZJ4
Received my booster yesterday at 9AM. So far, so good - no side effects. I have been taking 500mg naproxen every 12 hours as a precaution.
Edit: My Oura ring is telling me my body temp is elevated by 1.5 degrees today. Interesting
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 09, 2021, 08:32:43 PM
But seriously, I generally agree. I'm disappointed there wasn't a better "national" plan, I also hold states accountable if they didn't come up with a good plan on their own (and many didn't).
I would love to know what was in the 69 page pandemic plan that the Obama administration left behind that was promptly shitcanned. Betcha a Roast Beef Deluxe that vaccine distribution was covered.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2021, 09:47:18 AM
Received my booster yesterday at 9AM. So far, so good - no side effects. I have been taking 500mg naproxen every 12 hours as a precaution.
Edit: My Oura ring is telling me my body temp is elevated by 1.5 degrees today. Interesting
Maybe you are ovulating.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2021, 09:47:18 AM
Received my booster yesterday at 9AM. So far, so good - no side effects. I have been taking 500mg naproxen every 12 hours as a precaution.
Edit: My Oura ring is telling me my body temp is elevated by 1.5 degrees today. Interesting
Getting much worse as day goes on. Fever, chills, body aches, headache.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2021, 02:35:25 PM
Getting much worse as day goes on. Fever, chills, body aches, headache.
Hope it doesn't last too long. Be well, jesmu....
Hang in there, brother.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2021, 02:35:25 PM
Getting much worse as day goes on. Fever, chills, body aches, headache.
Hope you feel better soon. Keep us informed.
Here's the little capsule I received in my news feed this morning:
U.S. states struggle to roll out coronavirus vaccines. New York abruptly loosened its guidelines, after medical providers were forced to discard doses because of difficulties finding qualified patients. Florida's distribution plans are in disarray as demand far outstrips supply. And federal officials are being criticized for supplying syringes that can't efficiently extract all the liquid from vials.
Ugh.
96 year old dad got the shot Thursday. No complaints. Said he felt fine the day after. But tough as nails, so unless he was really hurting, that is what he would say.
Got it through the VA, not the cluster that is Florida Dept of Health.
Update: feeling normal-ish today.
I highly recommend taking nsaids for the first 24-48 hours after the booster to reduce symptoms.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ashishkjha/status/1348489177491501063
What in God's name are we doing here?!?!?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 11, 2021, 08:26:33 AM
Update: feeling normal-ish today.
I highly recommend taking nsaids for the first 24-48 hours after the booster to reduce symptoms.
It is good to hear that the symptoms were relatively brief.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on January 11, 2021, 08:37:25 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/ashishkjha/status/1348489177491501063
What in God's name are we doing here?!?!?
Honestly there should just be a daily line for EOD extra vaccines. If the hospital is going to discard them with an hour left in the day give it to whoever showed up.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 11, 2021, 08:40:16 AM
Honestly there should just be a daily line for EOD extra vaccines. If the hospital is going to discard them with an hour left in the day give it to whoever showed up.
Yea, if I could get on a list that said I can be at X hospital within 2 hours for a vaccine, I'd be all over it. I understand prioritizing is important. However, to do that at the expense of vaccines is not good.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 11, 2021, 08:40:16 AM
Honestly there should just be a daily line for EOD extra vaccines. If the hospital is going to discard them with an hour left in the day give it to whoever showed up.
Agree 100%.
Was just told that no more vaccines are available to firefighters in my area until at least February 1.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 11, 2021, 08:40:16 AM
Honestly there should just be a daily line for EOD extra vaccines. If the hospital is going to discard them with an hour left in the day give it to whoever showed up.
That is a terrific idea.
Follow the priority list in making appointments, to get as much vaccine as possible into the arms of priority patients. But have a "backup" line system in place. Maybe a line that forms at the end of the day (ideally in a parking lot, so people stay in their cars while waiting); maybe an opt-in text message system where people can be notified of extra doses; maybe something else. Just get the 'about to discard' doses into arms.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on January 11, 2021, 08:37:25 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/ashishkjha/status/1348489177491501063
What in God's name are we doing here?!?!?
Most of us have been asking that since last March. Welcome.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 11, 2021, 08:40:16 AM
Honestly there should just be a daily line for EOD extra vaccines. If the hospital is going to discard them with an hour left in the day give it to whoever showed up.
Great idea how hard is it to get the vaccine out to as many people as possible. Move to the families of those that work in the hospital. So stupid to throw away something that is in such high demand
This is great news. Including federal support to help states with mass vaccination clinics.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/533776-trump-administration-makes-sweeping-changes-to-speed-up-pace-of-covid?fbclid=IwAR0jqTWmXoXLUfiOfuYMpF1Q7ppoqd0d8OJOBv7Idb5V8izSFIxL8rqdAo8 (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/533776-trump-administration-makes-sweeping-changes-to-speed-up-pace-of-covid?fbclid=IwAR0jqTWmXoXLUfiOfuYMpF1Q7ppoqd0d8OJOBv7Idb5V8izSFIxL8rqdAo8)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 12, 2021, 08:34:39 AM
This is great news. Including federal support to help states with mass vaccination clinics.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/533776-trump-administration-makes-sweeping-changes-to-speed-up-pace-of-covid?fbclid=IwAR0jqTWmXoXLUfiOfuYMpF1Q7ppoqd0d8OJOBv7Idb5V8izSFIxL8rqdAo8 (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/533776-trump-administration-makes-sweeping-changes-to-speed-up-pace-of-covid?fbclid=IwAR0jqTWmXoXLUfiOfuYMpF1Q7ppoqd0d8OJOBv7Idb5V8izSFIxL8rqdAo8)
Agreed on good news, but federal support to help states with mass vaccination clinics was an absolute no brainer. The fact that this wasn't already in the plan is gross negligence at best.
Seems a bit like the current administration is doing their best to look over at Biden's test and write down the same answers. Hopefully, they are transcribing his work correctly. Too bad they didn't just follow the pandemic plan that they left on Trump's desk 4 years ago.
Quote from: forgetful on January 12, 2021, 09:22:13 AM
Seems a bit like the current administration is doing their best to look over at Biden's test and write down the same answers. Hopefully, they are transcribing his work correctly. Too bad they didn't just follow the pandemic plan that they left on Trump's desk 4 years ago.
Fair but I am choosing to take a less cynical approach....kind of like when Bush started prioritizing Obama's priorities on how to address the great recession.
Metro Nashville iHealth Deparatment is creating a standby procedure for leftover doses.
QuoteTo make sure no doses of the COVID-19 vaccine are wasted, MPHD will be introducing a "Standby List" on Tuesday afternoon. Each vial contains five doses of vaccine, meaning a maximum of four doses would be given through the Standby List on a given day.
Each day, the public is invited to enter their name onto the Standby List. That is done by emailing your name and phone number to COVID19VaccineStandby@Nashville.gov. When the end of the vaccination day approaches at 2:30pm, MPHD nurses will determine the number of unused doses. Those unused doses will then be offered to those randomly selected from the Standby List. Those selected will need to be able to get to the clinic in the Five Points area within 30 minutes of 2:30pm. They will also be given instructions for their second dose.
Once the remaining doses have been allocated, the list of entries will be deleted in its entirety. This will ensure those who enter each day will be available for their vaccination, should their entry be chosen. Feel free to enter one time each day you satisfy the requirements. Evidence of multiple entries on the same day will lead to disqualification.
Today, which I believe that the first day this program was implemented, 15,000 signed up and 2 people received doses.
Quote from: warriorchick on January 12, 2021, 06:46:59 PM
Metro Nashville iHealth Deparatment is creating a standby procedure for leftover doses.
Today, which I believe that the first day this program was implemented, 15,000 signed up and 2 people received doses.
They must follow me here on scoop 😎
Quote from: warriorchick on January 12, 2021, 06:46:59 PM
Metro Nashville iHealth Deparatment is creating a standby procedure for leftover doses.
Today, which I believe that the first day this program was implemented, 15,000 signed up and 2 people received doses.
I do believe the "wasted doses" news, while disappointing, is very limited. I haven't seen a single case of even 100 doses going to waste (except for malice), it's generally been in the single digits, occasionally up to 20. And while those small numbers do add up over time, it's not like millions of doses are going to waste.
Nonetheless, glad to hear programs are being developed to avoid many more.
Quote from: warriorchick on January 12, 2021, 06:46:59 PM
Metro Nashville iHealth Deparatment is creating a standby procedure for leftover doses.
Today, which I believe that the first day this program was implemented, 15,000 signed up and 2 people received doses.
Good to see someone trying to ensure less waste. If every vaccine administration site in the country did this, that could extrapolate to thousands of doses per day.
I think the anti waste program is great but why are we stopping at 230. Is it still a lack of vaccines at this point?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 12, 2021, 07:56:31 PM
I think the anti waste program is great but why are we stopping at 230. Is it still a lack of vaccines at this point?
On the CNBC news tonight they had interviews with staff at vaccination sites around the country. Several complained about lack of availability of vaccines. One site requested 24,000 doses and received only 4000.
Anyone see the process needed to get a vaccine in NYC? 50 question online form with multiple attachments needed to be uploaded including photos. Not at all confusing or difficult for senior citizens or low income front line workers who may not have ready internet access. As of yesterday evening, there were hundreds of appointments for vaccines the very next day. What a mess
Good news/bad news from JNJ.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/health/covid-vaccine-johnson-johnson.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/health/covid-vaccine-johnson-johnson.html)
A good reading. We aren't doing that bad.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-is-covid-vaccine-going-in-usa_n_600050a4c5b66f3f79647702
Quote from: JWags85 on January 12, 2021, 09:39:00 PM
Anyone see the process needed to get a vaccine in NYC? 50 question online form with multiple attachments needed to be uploaded including photos. Not at all confusing or difficult for senior citizens or low income front line workers who may not have ready internet access. As of yesterday evening, there were hundreds of appointments for vaccines the very next day. What a mess
New York is a mess on this? Shocking.
As they bungle along, they'll go over 40,000 deaths tomorrow.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 14, 2021, 10:24:35 PM
New York is a mess on this? Shocking.
As they bungle along, they'll go over 40,000 deaths tomorrow.
And yet, Cuomo will run for pres in 2024. He has had good moments, and absolutely terrible moments.
The data is backing up my decision to hold off for a few months on getting vaccinated. Antibodies from having it are showing to be as effective as the vaccine. At least though three months and some of the data says 6 months
Now, if Moderna's claims are accurate and their vaccine generates antibodies that last a year, this becomes an annual thing like a flu shot. And I anticipate there will not be a follow up shot necessary.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 14, 2021, 10:24:35 PM
New York is a mess on this? Shocking.
As they bungle along, they'll go over 40,000 deaths tomorrow.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 15, 2021, 06:21:56 AM
And yet, Cuomo will run for pres in 2024. He has had good moments, and absolutely terrible moments.
While I'm not going to say NY is doing a good job. Right now, it looks like Connecticut is performing the best. If you look at the data, NY is outperforming many states in getting shots into arms. They are vaccinating their population faster than the bulk of the country.
The criticism of them being widespread is to a large part a result of their being far far more media outlets reporting on every possible detail in NY.
Quote from: forgetful on January 15, 2021, 08:18:45 AM
While I'm not going to say NY is doing a good job. Right now, it looks like Connecticut is performing the best. If you look at the data, NY is outperforming many states in getting shots into arms. They are vaccinating their population faster than the bulk of the country.
The criticism of them being widespread is to a large part a result of their being far far more media outlets reporting on every possible detail in NY.
The vaccine rollout is going very well here.
I'm reading the state is already moving on to the next round.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 15, 2021, 08:26:09 AM
The vaccine rollout is going very well here.
I'm reading the state is already moving on to the next round.
Not only that we got assigned some bonus doses because of the good utilization and are opening up 1b to 65+ & 16+ with comorbities in the next few weeks. If we could just get another vaccine on board, it feels like we can really start moving fast.
If this is accurate it's not good. Spooling everyone up to expect more doses then having supply be the limiter would be really bad for the states trying to gain momentum.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/01/15/trump-vaccine-reserve-used-up/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/01/15/trump-vaccine-reserve-used-up/)
Yeah, looks like Florida really has this hammered down perfectly.
https://www.cltampa.com/news-views/florida-news/article/21148001/as-of-now-publix-stores-are-only-offering-vaccine-in-florida-counties-won-by-republicans
These people should be embarrassed.
So...carrying on the conversation stared in the Al about vaccines per day. We're doing about 1M per day now? (I haven't fact checked that). Great, only ~300 more days to herd immunity :(
OK, lets say we can get that to 2M per day, then I guess we'd be mid summer (which we all hoped for/expected), but that ignores that *so far* it's a 2 shot vaccine, so are we back to the end of 2021?
I'm really just bellyaching selfishly because I want want to get back to a more pre-covid life. But it does look like I *may* have been a little optimistic thinking we could largely get vaccines to everyone by June.
* I'm also ignoring those who decline the vaccine. From a local source I've heard about 20% of healthcare workers are, but perhaps they are in Tower's situation where they believe they have antibodies so are passing on it for now...
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 15, 2021, 12:08:53 PM
So...carrying on the conversation stared in the Al about vaccines per day. We're doing about 1M per day now? (I haven't fact checked that). Great, only ~300 more days to herd immunity :(
OK, lets say we can get that to 2M per day, then I guess we'd be mid summer (which we all hoped for/expected), but that ignores that *so far* it's a 2 shot vaccine, so are we back to the end of 2021?
I'm really just bellyaching selfishly because I want want to get back to a more pre-covid life. But it does look like I *may* have been a little optimistic thinking we could largely get vaccines to everyone by June.
* I'm also ignoring those who decline the vaccine. From a local source I've heard about 20% of healthcare workers are, but perhaps they are in Tower's situation where they believe they have antibodies so are passing on it for now...
I think the goal is 3M/day - that can get us to mid-year. The only way that happens in my opinion is we get a third and maybe fourth vaccine in the mix.
Also, this will get better when the susceptible populations are immune. That alone will take the burden off the hospitals which helps everyone
I bet you we can do this, but need less of everyone doing whatever the f they want and more coordination and funding for success....
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 15, 2021, 12:17:08 PM
Also, this will get better when the susceptible populations are immune. That alone will take the burden off the hospitals which helps everyone
That's a good point. I was reading an article yesterday about China's vaccine, only about 50-60% efficacy, but 100% reduction in severe cases of covid. If we can keep people from ending up in the hospital -this gets 100% better!
I'm not necessarily advocating to use China's vaccine, but any relief like that for healthcare is welcome now.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 15, 2021, 11:14:03 AM
If this is accurate it's not good. Spooling everyone up to expect more doses then having supply be the limiter would be really bad for the states trying to gain momentum.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/01/15/trump-vaccine-reserve-used-up/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/01/15/trump-vaccine-reserve-used-up/)
What this looks like to me is that they pushed out the reserve vaccines trying to get closer to their "20 million" goal by the end of the year. But lied about holding the reserve as to not concern people/states about not getting a 2nd dose.
They thought they'd be fine, until Biden announced he intended to release reserves. They'd be busted when Biden came into office, so they announced the same...they would be released.
Then states started asking where the reserves were and they were busted anyway.
I agree with pushing the reserves out to vaccinate more faster, but the lying/hiding info from the public is kind of disgusting and reeks of incompetence.
Did anyone else hear/read (and maybe I missed it hear) that now Trump's (and Bidens) plan is to release all vaccines for everyone to get one dose and not reserving any doses for 2nd doses?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 15, 2021, 01:42:52 PM
Did anyone else hear/read (and maybe I missed it hear) that now Trump's (and Bidens) plan is to release all vaccines for everyone to get one dose and not reserving any doses for 2nd doses?
This isn't the case based on what I have read. It is that they will rely on current production for the second dose instead of holding it back in reserve. So what it means is if there is a mfg hiccup they will stop vaccinating new people and instead prioritize second doses
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 15, 2021, 02:04:53 PM
This isn't the case based on what I have read. It is that they will rely on current production for the second dose instead of holding it back in reserve. So what it means is if there is a mfg hiccup they will stop vaccinating new people and instead prioritize second doses
Thanks for clarifying
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 15, 2021, 02:04:53 PM
This isn't the case based on what I have read. It is that they will rely on current production for the second dose instead of holding it back in reserve. So what it means is if there is a mfg hiccup they will stop vaccinating new people and instead prioritize second doses
That's my understanding as well. Essentially, just-in-time manufacturing instead of warehousing half of the supply.
This is a comprehensive piece. I don't expect things to go perfect but I am really tired of bad faith efforts.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-leaders-waited-months-to-approve-distribution-plans-11610737935
I like the reports that Biden is ticked at his COVID team for not already having a plan. Good. Find a way. There are a lot of resources available.
Amy reaction to this approach from the board experts?
https://pharmaphorum.com/r-d/views-analysis-r-d/a-new-approach-to-covid-19-treatment/
Zyesami was developed in conjunction with partner Relief Therapeutics, and NeuroRx is currently awaiting results from a Phase 2b/3 trial (COVID-AIV) evaluating the therapeutic for the treatment of respiratory failure in COVID-19 patients.
Based on years of research by Professor Sami Said at New York's Stony Brook University, the drug is a synthetic formulation of Vasoactive Intestinal Peptide (VIP), a naturally occurring peptide that is highly concentrated in the lungs. VIP is known to have potent anti-inflammatory effects and can inhibit coronavirus replication and block the formation of inflammatory cytokines.
"Every air-breathing warm-blooded animal makes this peptide to protect the lungs from the toxic effects of breathing air," NeuroRx CEO, Jonathan Javitt, MD, MPH, told pharmaphorum. "It protects the lungs against all injuries and turns out it has some extraordinarily valuable properties for patients with COVID-19."
I registered with the Meijer Pharmacy yesterday for the vaccine. They'll text me when I"m eligible for the vaccine and I'll have 24 hours to accept or decline the appointment. I figured it wouldn't hurt to do so - I can still look around for places that I can get it sooner too. I'm figuring it will be June at least before I can get it in Wisconsin though since I'm not in a priority group.
Our middle and secondary schools are going back 5 days face to face the week of 1/25 ( had been hybrid since late November) but the staff that wants to hasn't been able to get vaccinated yet. I know there are people trying to make it happen for them - hoping it happens soon. I do think medical professionals and first responders should go before them but would like to see teachers in the next group.
My fiancé (MPS teacher) was emailed saying she was in 1A and she was jumping for joy for about 30min before they emailed again saying disregard first email. I guess it supposed to only go to school nurses but all the MOS received this email instead. Talk about a big swing in emotions
Forgetful, any insight on the early J&J vaccine data?
Quote from: reinko on January 16, 2021, 08:40:00 AM
Forgetful, any insight on the early J&J vaccine data?
Right now the J&J data is very preliminary. I can briefly summarize the take home message, and offer some insights as to promising and concerning aspects.
1. They have not evaluated if this actually prevents COVID yet. Rather they just assayed the immunogenic response and safety in a smaller Phase 1/2 study. Those results indicated that the vaccine appears safe, and generates production of neutralizing antibodies at levels equivalent to natural infection. This suggests, but does not prove, that the vaccine will be effective and safe.
2. Immunogenic responses did not seem to be altered tremendously by a 2nd dose, which suggests a single dose is likely sufficient.
3. In addition to developing an antibody response, they also observed a T-cell response. The T-cell response is important for developing immunity. In general, there are two types of T-cell responses, a Th1 response, and a Th2 response. These responses are antagonistic, so if you develop a Th1 response it will inhibit development of a Th2 response. If you develop a Th2 response, you inhibit development of a Th1 response. For fighting a viral infection, you need a Th1 response, so in vaccine design you are trying to target a Th1 response. In their study, they observed a Th1 response in those given either a low dose or high dose. These parts all look promising (see caveat below).
4. They did observe a Th2 response in 2 individuals. 1 each in low dose-young age group, and high-dose older group. This could be a cause of concern. For some diseases a Th2 response can actually make the disease more severe, whether this is the case for COVID, we don't know yet. The good news is that even in the patients that showed some Th2 responses, the overall T-cell response was biased towards Th1 (they look at a T1/T2 ratio), so its likely not too concerning.
What this all means in terms of efficacy in preventing disease, and severe disease will need to be determined in Phase 3 trials that are ongoing. Overall, it looks promising.
Thanks forgetful, for preparing a summary that someone like me can understand 😀
Good stuff Forgetful, and I read their vaccine can just be refrigerated for months at a time too?
If we can a one shot vaccine with this easy of a storage could be a gamechanger (although I've read they are already experiencing some manufacturing hurdles).
So .. my elderly Michigan in-laws have registered for notification at a variety vaccination spots. -- Frankly, this is no way to run a railroad. Insane that you'd need to register at multiple places to get in somewhere.
As far as I can google .. Meijer is the only notification list I could find (in Wisconsin.)
Apparently that is a thing here. Local health departments are trying to discourage it.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 16, 2021, 03:02:43 PM
So .. my elderly Michigan in-laws have registered for notification at a variety vaccination spots. -- Frankly, this is no way to run a railroad. Insane that you'd need to register at multiple places to get in somewhere.
As far as I can google .. Meijer is the only notification list I could find (in Wisconsin.)
Yeah I registered on Meijer's site last night and plan to register anywhere else I can too. But I'm not expecting to be able to get the vaccine anywhere for quite a few months.
Potentially big news from Israel- https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/01/18/covid-vaccine-over-98-effective-in-creating-antibodies/
That would be great news. Seriously don't know why this has become the latest argument-Politicians getting into the mix, etc.
It's something that will be known after a little time passes...and it's not like it's something that no one wants to study.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 18, 2021, 01:26:37 PM
Potentially big news from Israel- https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/01/18/covid-vaccine-over-98-effective-in-creating-antibodies/
The last line of the article is the important part. The data makes it "reasonable to assume" that one cannot transmit the virus after the 2nd does. But this study didn't look into whether that was actually the case.
This study simply confirms the original Pfizer data regarding antibody production, it does not test the hypothesis that one cannot transmit the virus after vaccination.
A year of COVID. New guys walk in to find no, zero, zip, nada, bupkes federal vaccine distribution plan.
Feels like the Detroit Lions leadership was in charge.
So, starting from scratch, there are going to have to be a lot of vaccines on the back end to reach 100 million in 100 days.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 11:50:10 AM
A year of COVID. New guys walk in to find no, zero, zip, nada, bupkes federal vaccine distribution plan.
Feels like the Detroit Lions leadership was in charge.
So, starting from scratch, there are going to have to be a lot of vaccines on the back end to reach 100 million in 100 days.
Way more incompetent than the Detroit Lions.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 11:50:10 AM
A year of COVID. New guys walk in to find no, zero, zip, nada, bupkes federal vaccine distribution plan.
Feels like the Detroit Lions leadership was in charge.
So, starting from scratch, there are going to have to be a lot of vaccines on the back end to reach 100 million in 100 days.
We have been near 1 million per day for the past few. I actually don't think this is going to be as difficult as you think.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 21, 2021, 12:28:27 PM
We have been near 1 million per day for the past few. I actually don't think this is going to be as difficult as you think.
Yup no plan but currently 1 million shots a day which falls in line with the goal of Biden administration of 100 million in 100 days. So keep doing what we're doing I guess?
That will be the floor. I hope.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 12:53:53 PM
That will be the floor. I hope.
I hope so too. But it was announced as a goal not a guarantee which usually represents what they perceive as a realistic ceiling?
If they guaranteed a minimum of 1 million a day avg then I think it's fair to categorize it as the floor.
Finally heard back from a vaccine trial. Trying to decide whether to participate or not now that two have been approved.
Going to have to be more and better production. Going to actually need coordination with logistics. Locally, the medical facilities are desperate for doses. Having opted out of the first round due to existing antibodies, I am now being told my next opportunity, originally thought to be the first week of February, is now probably thought to be early March.
No idea if this is universal. Just know that locally the problem is supply, not demand.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 01:17:44 PM
Going to have to be more and better production. Going to actually need coordination with logistics. Locally, the medical facilities are desperate for doses. Having opted out of the first round due to existing antibodies, I am now being told my next opportunity, originally thought to be the first week of February, is now probably thought to be early March.
No idea if this is universal. Just know that locally the problem is supply, not demand.
But I think the good news is despite the lack of plan, distribution is going decent. I think production is the problem. The local health system here is saying that they have the time and personnel to ramp up shots in arms, but just don't have the doses.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 11:50:10 AM
A year of COVID. New guys walk in to find no, zero, zip, nada, bupkes federal vaccine distribution plan.
Feels like the Detroit Lions leadership was in charge.
So, starting from scratch, there are going to have to be a lot of vaccines on the back end to reach 100 million in 100 days.
Lions leadership should be terribly insulted with this comparison. The Lions actually won 5 of 16 games this season.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 21, 2021, 01:30:18 PM
Lions leadership should be terribly insulted with this comparison. The Lions actually won 5 of 16 games this season.
Well, Matthew Stafford did.
I signed up yesterday...earliest I get in is Feb 5th, so I a grateful for that.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 11:50:10 AM
A year of COVID. New guys walk in to find no, zero, zip, nada, bupkes federal vaccine distribution plan.
Feels like the Detroit Lions leadership was in charge.
So, starting from scratch, there are going to have to be a lot of vaccines on the back end to reach 100 million in 100 days.
Fauci said this reporting is false. But we can all agree that guy is less then reliable with accurate information so who knows.
Go get 'em, Sparky.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 05:32:30 PM
Go get 'em, Sparky.
Keep spreading misinformation tower!
You mean 'start'. And Fauci also said he felt liberated and that it felt good to be able to talk honestly about the virus. Science. But thanks, spanky.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
You mean 'start'. And Fauci also said he felt liberated and that it felt good to be able to talk honestly about the virus. Science. But thanks, spanky.
Fauci saying he feels liberated to talk science isn't what your OP said....chief
You are correct, binky. I did not use the entire interview. Shame on me.
Quote from: tower912 on January 22, 2021, 07:48:32 AM
You are correct, binky. I did not use the entire interview. Shame on me.
Is it that hard to say the information you posted from a CNN article turned out to be inaccurate?
https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-retains-neutralizing-activity-against
Not good news. Although the Moderna vaccine appears to still retain efficacy against the UK and South African strains, the neutralizing antibodies are 6-fold less active against the South African strain, which means there will likely be a decrease in efficacy for the vaccine.
The new Brazil strain hasn't been tested yet, but is similar to the South African strain, and is driving a second wave in Manaus.
If this keeps up, we will have an escape mutant before we even vaccinate 30% of our population.
We might want to consider shutting things down for awhile to stop the spread, and mutation of this virus. Or we will be seeing an escape mutant.
There is zero chance we are shutting down anything. The political environment would never allow it. I'm just hoping people do mitigation through the Spring because I think there will be zero appetite for a summer like last year's.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 25, 2021, 08:42:58 AM
There is zero chance we are shutting down anything. The political environment would never allow it. I'm just hoping people do mitigation through the Spring because I think there will be zero appetite for a summer like last year's.
I fear you are right. I also fear this will cause another huge spike in cases, suffering and deaths because the vaccination rate is not nearly fast enough to prevent it.
If we followed science instead of politics, we would be in a much better place.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 25, 2021, 08:42:58 AM
There is zero chance we are shutting down anything. The political environment would never allow it. I'm just hoping people do mitigation through the Spring because I think there will be zero appetite for a summer like last year's.
I agree in all regards. Unfortunately, I'm now fearing that we may be living in a new normal. I think we have some time to avoid it, but there are some red flags popping up that threatens a return to the old normal.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 25, 2021, 08:42:58 AM
There is zero chance we are shutting down anything. The political environment would never allow it. I'm just hoping people do mitigation through the Spring because I think there will be zero appetite for a summer like last year's.
I agree. And if this thing is gonna keep mutating, at what point do we just get shots in arms and just have to live with it? This could go on forever if we shut down for every new threatening strain.
I assume that this will become like a second flu shot. Getting an annual vaccine that most closely approximates what is needed to fight the dominant strain du jour.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 25, 2021, 08:55:45 AM
I agree. And if this thing is gonna keep mutating, at what point do we just get shots in arms and just have to live with it? This could go on forever if we shut down for every new threatening strain.
The point of shutting down - if we do it right - would be to minimize the rate of transmission and thereby minimize the rate of mutations, so we don't have to keep shutting down in the future. If we don't shut down now, the future state will likely be very unpleasant..and considerably worse than we are living in today.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 25, 2021, 08:49:47 AM
I fear you are right. I also fear this will cause another huge spike in cases, suffering and deaths because the vaccination rate is not nearly fast enough to prevent it.
We may not have enough people vaccinated for herd immunity, but we may have "the right" people largely vaccinated to significantly lessen hospitalizations and deaths.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 25, 2021, 09:16:49 AM
The point of shutting down - if we do it right - would be to minimize the rate of transmission and thereby minimize the rate of mutations, so we don't have to keep shutting down in the future.
So.. flattening the curve?
In theory, you're correct. But I just have a growing skepticism about how effective these measures are in reality.
It will be interesting to see how things go with these new strains and the restlessness of people. It looks like some states are allowing indoor dining. I'm hearing more and more about back to work.
Which from my perspective, has anything changed regarding cases/death/spread to warrant this? Or are we just getting restless and wanting to get back to some normal and live with the risks?
I see Wuhan is back to normal but yet we have the new strains popping up. At any moment we could see the new strains surface any place, so is it not dangerous that places are back to normal?
Hopefully with us back in the WHO we can collaborate and have much better results than the past year
Quote from: cheebs09 on January 25, 2021, 10:20:59 AM
It will be interesting to see how things go with these new strains and the restlessness of people. It looks like some states are allowing indoor dining. I'm hearing more and more about back to work.
Which from my perspective, has anything changed regarding cases/death/spread to warrant this? Or are we just getting restless and wanting to get back to some normal and live with the risks?
I think clearly people want to get back to normal. There is no way we are having another year of remote schooling after this one. There will be no political appetite for another round of financial stimulus.
So IMO the next few months are going to be about getting the vaccine to those who most need it, and telling everyone else to be patient. But by summer? I think people are going to pretty much want to return to what they want to do. Maybe large sporting events and things like Summerfest still have limitations, but indoor dining, etc. will look similar to what it was.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 25, 2021, 09:16:49 AM
The point of shutting down - if we do it right - would be to minimize the rate of transmission and thereby minimize the rate of mutations, so we don't have to keep shutting down in the future. If we don't shut down now, the future state will likely be very unpleasant..and considerably worse than we are living in today.
https://fortune.com/2021/01/06/covid-pandemic-recession-unemployment-mortality-rate-increase/
Kind of a no win situation right now when juggling the idea of shutting down again or not. Damned if we do, damned if we don't according to this John Hopkins study
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on January 25, 2021, 11:17:50 AM
https://fortune.com/2021/01/06/covid-pandemic-recession-unemployment-mortality-rate-increase/
Kind of a no win situation right now when juggling the idea of shutting down again or not. Damned if we do, damned if we don't according to this John Hopkins study
No, that is not what that study says. And no, in general that is not a correct assessment of the data. And that's all that I will entertain on this topic.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 25, 2021, 09:54:12 AM
We may not have enough people vaccinated for herd immunity, but we may have "the right" people largely vaccinated to significantly lessen hospitalizations and deaths.
Possibly. But with evidence indicating that the UK strain may be more virulent (and possibilities that others might be as well), combined with the possibility of new mutations that can infect even previously infected people, it's also possible that the decrease may not be all that significant. And if we get mutations that get around even vaccinated people, well...
I know the political will probably doesn't exist to shut down again. I'm just giving the medical/scientific viewpoint.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 25, 2021, 09:54:12 AM
We may not have enough people vaccinated for herd immunity, but we may have "the right" people largely vaccinated to significantly lessen hospitalizations and deaths.
I think you are probably right, but the problem remains that the vaccine is not widely available - even to groups that are currently on the list.
I can only speak for Racine, but they don't have supplies to vaccinate those people who have been told they can be vaccinated. Neither Ascension nor Walgreens - probably the 2 biggest providers have available doses.
Supposedly, we have deals with Pfizer and Moderna for 400 Mil by summer - but I don't know that we will have the supplies or vaccine to do 100M in 100 days.
Quote from: Jockey on January 25, 2021, 01:58:11 PM
I think you are probably right, but the problem remains that the vaccine is not widely available - even to groups that are currently on the list.
I can only speak for Racine, but they don't have supplies to vaccinate those people who have been told they can be vaccinated. Neither Ascension nor Walgreens - probably the 2 biggest providers have available doses.
Supposedly, we have deals with Pfizer and Moderna for 400 Mil by summer - but I don't know that we will have the supplies or vaccine to do 100M in 100 days.
Right. I originally said keeping people in serious mitigation mode through the Spring. So by summer. We have four-plus months to get there.
Moderna announces their vaccine is effective against the British and South African variants.
No word on the Brazil strain.
Well, shhheeeeeeiiitttt, now they are working on a booster for the south African strain.
Again, we aren't doing that bad with vaccinations. Our rate per 100 is better than pretty much everyone else.
https://twitter.com/jbarro/status/1353827231462797312?s=20
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on January 25, 2021, 02:17:01 PM
Moderna announces their vaccine is effective against the British and South African variants.
No word on the Brazil strain.
Well, shhheeeeeeiiitttt, now they are working on a booster for the south African strain.
Yes and no. They believe it will likely be less effective against the South African variant, how much so, they don't know, hence the idea of a booster.
But any booster will have to undergo clinical testing still.
Quote from: forgetful on January 25, 2021, 04:43:21 PM
Yes and no. They believe it will likely be less effective against the South African variant, how much so, they don't know, hence the idea of a booster.
But any booster will have to undergo clinical testing still.
It will be interesting to see how much clinical testing FDA requires for any boosters. Will it be the very abbreviated testing undergone by the annual flu vaccine, or a more extensive investigation like the original Covid vaccines? mRNA vaccines are still new, so I could see an argument in favor of the latter. But given the urgency of the situation, I suspect they will go with an abbreviated review process.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 25, 2021, 05:21:04 PM
It will be interesting to see how much clinical testing FDA requires for any boosters. Will it be the very abbreviated testing undergone by the annual flu vaccine, or a more extensive investigation like the original Covid vaccines? mRNA vaccines are still new, so I could see an argument in favor of the latter. But given the urgency of the situation, I suspect they will go with an abbreviated review process.
I'd be concerned if they abbreviated the review process. Although unlikely, there would be the possibility that any booster designed against the mutated virus, could cause vaccine-induced enhancement of the viral infection (similar to what happened with some early Measles vaccines).
I agree, we might see it rushed due to urgency, but if they asked me I'd be cautioning against it.
Quote from: forgetful on January 25, 2021, 09:51:16 PM
I'd be concerned if they abbreviated the review process. Although unlikely, there would be the possibility that any booster designed against the mutated virus, could cause vaccine-induced enhancement of the viral infection (similar to what happened with some early Measles vaccines).
I agree, we might see it rushed due to urgency, but if they asked me I'd be cautioning against it.
I totally agree.
Unfortunately, without the political will to do another shutdown, I fear that a complete review could take so long that the vaccine may be rendered obsolete by new mutations before they are finished.
The poor decisionmaking a year ago keeps haunting us every step of the way.
From the NYT:
In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio announced that he would delay the openings of mass vaccination sites at Yankee Stadium and Citi Field because the city didn't have enough doses to distribute. Many New Yorkers have had their inoculation appointments canceled as the city waits on more vaccines. ...
Meanwhile, there's growing evidence that the virus is morphing more quickly than experts had thought, with new variants emerging that make it more difficult to contain. Yesterday, two drug makers reported that their vaccines, while still effective, are slightly less potent against the variant from South Africa.
Quote from: MU82 on January 26, 2021, 06:27:06 AM
From the NYT:
In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio announced that he would delay the openings of mass vaccination sites at Yankee Stadium and Citi Field because the city didn't have enough doses to distribute. Many New Yorkers have had their inoculation appointments canceled as the city waits on more vaccines. ...
Meanwhile, there's growing evidence that the virus is morphing more quickly than experts had thought, with new variants emerging that make it more difficult to contain. Yesterday, two drug makers reported that their vaccines, while still effective, are slightly less potent against the variant from South Africa.
This is a joke. NY continues to bumble this. My GF's boss was vaccinated in NY yesterday. He was trying to schedule a vaccine for his wife as she has a family history of breathing issues. They asked if either of them had "qualifying" issues or underlying medical conditions that would make them eligible for early vaccination...except they didn't have to detail which due to HIPAA. He said "umm yes?" And he and his wife were both scheduled, no issue. He's a perfectly healthy 39 year old who works in an office building.
If NY doesn't have doses, it's cause they have no clue what they are doing, but naturally de Blasio will find someone else to blame.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 26, 2021, 10:41:44 AM
This is a joke. NY continues to bumble this. My GF's boss was vaccinated in NY yesterday. He was trying to schedule a vaccine for his wife as she has a family history of breathing issues. They asked if either of them had "qualifying" issues or underlying medical conditions that would make them eligible for early vaccination...except they didn't have to detail which due to HIPAA. He said "umm yes?" And he and his wife were both scheduled, no issue. He's a perfectly healthy 39 year old who works in an office building.
If NY doesn't have doses, it's cause they have no clue what they are doing, but naturally de Blasio will find someone else to blame.
Not sure how that story is "NY and de Blasio bumbling this". It is the same story everywhere. You are not required to provide proof of a medical condition. It's all on the honor system. Even then, group 1b includes people that are overweight (BMI above 25) and people that were previously smokers. It isn't hard to get included in phase 1b.
That isn't a NY thing, it is a US thing. Like most places, NY is now out of vaccine doses. Nationwide there is more demand than supply for the groups currently authorized to be vaccinated, so you see cancelation of appointments and suspension of vaccine campaigns because there is no vaccine. We need more supply, which is why months ago, they should have enacted the defense production act to facilitate supply.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 26, 2021, 10:41:44 AM
If NY doesn't have doses, it's cause they have no clue what they are doing, but naturally de Blasio will find someone else to blame.
Errr, what? Unless NY is producing their own vaccine doses, your statement doesn't make any sense.
Quote from: JWags85 on January 26, 2021, 10:41:44 AM
This is a joke. NY continues to bumble this. My GF's boss was vaccinated in NY yesterday. He was trying to schedule a vaccine for his wife as she has a family history of breathing issues. They asked if either of them had "qualifying" issues or underlying medical conditions that would make them eligible for early vaccination...except they didn't have to detail which due to HIPAA. He said "umm yes?" And he and his wife were both scheduled, no issue. He's a perfectly healthy 39 year old who works in an office building.
If NY doesn't have doses, it's cause they have no clue what they are doing, but naturally de Blasio will find someone else to blame.
I'm not gonna defend DiBlasio because he has messed up plenty of times...but
if NY doesn't have doses, it's because they haven't been delivered. And NY isn't alone in this; state and local public health officials have been quite uniform in their comments about not receiving the doses they had been promised.
There were stories coming out of NYC less than a month ago that there were countless appointments available because the registration/appointment scheduling process online was too confusing or complicated for many members of the priority groups. Now they have no doses available. Im just saying it's a mess. They messed up the initial phase, and now it's a disaster (mostly due to things out of their control), but it's not like it's been a tightly run ship that suddenly is off course due to no fault of their own. I didn't convey that well at first and mixed points, but I'm just very slow to feel bad for BDB on anything and trust they did everything right up to that point after living through his COVID crapshow March-June
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 25, 2021, 04:16:23 PM
Again, we aren't doing that bad with vaccinations. Our rate per 100 is better than pretty much everyone else.
https://twitter.com/jbarro/status/1353827231462797312?s=20
Yah, we are one of the tallest midgets!
If you think things are bad here with distribution, they are really messed up in the European Union. They were late to sign agreements and bet too big on the AZ vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/world/europe/europe-covid-vaccinations.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes
This is going to hand Boris Johnson and other Brexit opponents a big political victory as well since England is doing very well with its roll out.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2021, 02:57:59 PM
If you think things are bad here with distribution, they are really messed up in the European Union. They were late to sign agreements and bet too big on the AZ vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/world/europe/europe-covid-vaccinations.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes
This is going to hand Boris Johnson and other Brexit proponents opponents a big political victory as well since England is doing very well with its roll out.
It is kinda ironic that the UK got the better end of the first big post-Brexit 'contest' between the UK and the EU. In the long term, the EU will be just fine, but they really screwed the pooch on this one.
(And FIFY)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 27, 2021, 04:07:50 PM
It is kinda ironic that the UK got the better end of the first big post-Brexit 'contest' between the UK and the EU. In the long term, the EU will be just fine, but they really screwed the pooch on this one.
(And FIFY)
Oh I agree with you. I just think its interesting that this is reinforcing all of the criticisms about the EU.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2021, 04:09:50 PM
Oh I agree with you. I just think its interesting that this is reinforcing all of the criticisms about the EU.
Absolutely. Interesting how things work sometimes....
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 27, 2021, 04:09:50 PM
Oh I agree with you. I just think its interesting that this is reinforcing all of the criticisms about the EU.
My colleagues in Belgium, the heart of the EU's driving mentality, always say their 3 most impactful exports are beer, chocolate, and ineffective bureaucracy
Quick thinking by stranded Oregon public health workers prevents waste of several doses of Covid vaccine. Just a drop in the bucket, but we need more vaccination officials thinking this way to get as many shoots in arms as humanly possible.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/us/oregon-vaccine-stuck-in-the-snow-drivers.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage
The public health workers were driving back from a vaccination site in rural Cave Junction, Ore., on Tuesday when they got stuck in a snowstorm on the highway.
They knew they had only six hours to get the remaining doses of coronavirus vaccine back to people who were waiting for their shots in Grants Pass, roughly 30 miles away. Normally, the trip takes about 45 minutes.
But with a jackknifed tractor-trailer ahead of them, the crew realized they could be stuck for hours and the doses would expire.
So the workers made the decision to walk from car to car asking stranded drivers if they wanted to be vaccinated, right there on the spot.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 28, 2021, 10:00:06 AM
Quick thinking by stranded Oregon public health workers prevents waste of several doses of Covid vaccine. Just a drop in the bucket, but we need more vaccination officials thinking this way to get as many shoots in arms as humanly possible.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/us/oregon-vaccine-stuck-in-the-snow-drivers.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage
The public health workers were driving back from a vaccination site in rural Cave Junction, Ore., on Tuesday when they got stuck in a snowstorm on the highway.
They knew they had only six hours to get the remaining doses of coronavirus vaccine back to people who were waiting for their shots in Grants Pass, roughly 30 miles away. Normally, the trip takes about 45 minutes.
But with a jackknifed tractor-trailer ahead of them, the crew realized they could be stuck for hours and the doses would expire.
So the workers made the decision to walk from car to car asking stranded drivers if they wanted to be vaccinated, right there on the spot.
Clever, but not sure if i would take a shot in the arm from 2 cats walking around in a snowstorm. ;D
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on January 28, 2021, 11:08:05 AM
Clever, but not sure if i would take a shot in the arm from 2 cats walking around in a snowstorm. ;D
Lol
Give that storyline to Stephen King and you have the makings of a bestseller.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55850352
Novavax report from the UK
Quote from: Warriors4ever on January 28, 2021, 05:34:39 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55850352
Novavax report from the UK
A bit concerning that it was only 60% effective against the South African variant. That would suggest also only around 60% effective against the Brazil variant.
While still offering protection, that is a pretty significant drop-off.
Know it's just a press release, but from the people I read and have trusted online, J&J results (if backed up by data), is good, but not great news. Think the key % some experts I've read is 85% effective against severe cases.
All this being said, if approved by the FDA with same protocols as before, would take this thing tomorrow if it was available to me.
Quote from: reinko on January 29, 2021, 07:55:01 AM
All this being said, if approved by the FDA with same protocols as before, would take this thing tomorrow if it was available to me.
Same. I think the possibility that we'll be taking vaccines and boosters annually for different strains is very high .. so might as well take the 85% shot since you'll be taking another one anyhow.
I wish the writing/coverage would pivot to also highlight the prevention of severe cases. I believe a read that with the SA variant, Novavax still has a high prevention of severe COVID.
At the end of the day I would love a bullet proof 95% effective vaccine, but really all we need is something that greatly reduces the severity. We're never going to prevent everyone from getting sick. As topper says its inevitable that we get our mRNA boost every year for whatever this morphs into. The spread is just too far and wide for this not to happen at this point.
Keep rolling the more effective ones for the high risk and front line personnel and roll out the J&J for the general population.
Quote from: reinko on January 29, 2021, 07:55:01 AM
Know it's just a press release, but from the people I read and have trusted online, J&J results (if backed up by data), is good, but not great news. Think the key % some experts I've read is 85% effective against severe cases.
All this being said, if approved by the FDA with same protocols as before, would take this thing tomorrow if it was available to me.
I think it's really good news. Single shot, easier storage, no cases reported after 49 days.
I feel like I've read multiple times since the beginning of the pandemic that the consensus thought was after a vaccine was developed we would go from "Cold & Flu Season" to "Cold & Flu & Coronavirus Season".
It's sure is sounding that way.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 29, 2021, 08:09:44 AM
I wish the writing/coverage would pivot to also highlight the prevention of severe cases. I believe a read that with the SA variant, Novavax still has a high prevention of severe COVID.
Agreed, and I've read that too. In fact, I beloved I saw that high % as 100%. That would be fantastic, and worthwhile even if the vaccine had 0% efficacy.
Edit: Novavax seems to be 85% at preventing severe cases. It was Sinovac/CoronaVac (China's vaccine) that was doing very well preventing severe cases, despite very meh efficacy numbers:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-55642648
QuoteBut Butantan stressed that the vaccine is 78% effective in preventing mild cases that needed treatment and 100% effective in staving off moderate to serious cases.
Edit again: And I just read J&Js release. "complete protection" on day 28 is good.
https://www.jnj.com/johnson-johnson-announces-single-shot-janssen-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-met-primary-endpoints-in-interim-analysis-of-its-phase-3-ensemble-trial
Quote85% Effective Overall in Preventing Severe Disease and Demonstrated Complete Protection Against COVID-19 related Hospitalization and Death as of Day 28
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 29, 2021, 10:01:52 AM
I think it's really good news. Single shot, easier storage, no cases reported after 49 days.
I believe it was no severe cases requiring hospitlization after 49 days. That's still very good.
But, the best use of this vaccine is actually going to be in developing countries, where the easier storage is a huge deal, and where history shows compliance on multi-shot vaccines is exceedingly poor.
This is how the info should be presented in my opinion
https://twitter.com/helenbranswell/status/1355145433899794433?s=21 (https://twitter.com/helenbranswell/status/1355145433899794433?s=21)
Quote from: forgetful on January 29, 2021, 12:46:54 PM
But, the best use of this vaccine is actually going to be in developing countries, where the easier storage is a huge deal, and where history shows compliance on multi-shot vaccines is exceedingly poor.
Agree. I suspect most in the USA (at least this first time around) will be getting the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. Storage and the two-shot regimen are less of an issue, and by the time others like J&J get approved and distributed, the need here will have diminished.
Vaccines like J&J will be great for developing countries, though.
ok ok, here's the new order for receiving the vaccine-
1. hollywood and important gubmint people
2. the rich and famous-oops 2nd verse, same as the first...i'm henry the 8th i am, henry the 8th i am, i am....
3. please sir, can we have more crowd
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30800506/milwaukee-bucks-executive-alex-lasry-33-got-lucky-covid-19-vaccine
little al must not have gotten the message-wear a mask, wash your hands and stay home
btw, i had to really work, make a lot of calls to get the vaccine, some weeks after they made it available to "front line". my own professional organization was useless as tata's on a bull and i told them. if not for my relationship with the people at my home medical clinic, where i've received my health care for the past 20 years, i'd still be calling and waiting for that email. my staff has still not been contacted but al lasry got it
Yes, and he has been roundly criticized in another thread for it. Welcome to the party, pal.
Quote from: tower912 on January 29, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
Yes, and he has been roundly criticized in another thread for it. Welcome to the party, pal.
well then i must be in with the cool guys-yay!! you think i have time to read post of every thread?
so nice to see lunch pail joe getting the vaccine to the gitmo "miscreants" before most of our level 1, 2 and even 3 CITIZENS get it are we out of our collective minds? get the damn thing to our teachers so we can justify their paychecks at least and get our kids back in school. gitmo should be the least of our worries
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/536431-guantanamo-bay-prisoners-to-be-offered-coronavirus-vaccines
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 30, 2021, 07:52:20 AM
so nice to see lunch pail joe getting the vaccine to the gitmo "miscreants" before most of our level 1, 2 and even 3 CITIZENS get it are we out of our collective minds? get the damn thing to our teachers so we can justify their paychecks at least and get our kids back in school. gitmo should be the least of our worries
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/536431-guantanamo-bay-prisoners-to-be-offered-coronavirus-vaccines
If we are vaccinating the 6,000 citizens who are there, using 40 of them on the detainees is fine.
If your best 'whataboutism' is not liking the order that people are getting vaccinated....
Let's get back to talking about vaccines, people.
Did I hear this correctly? J&J says that while their vaccine only prevents 66%, no one who has taken their vaccine has died of COVID.
If accurate, an interesting standard. You still may get it, but it won't kill you. Actually, I can see that being the one in developing nations and being given to kids.
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2021, 09:49:01 AM
Did I hear this correctly? J&J says that while their vaccine only prevents 66%, no one who has taken their vaccine has died of COVID.
If accurate, an interesting standard. You still may get it, but it won't kill you. Actually, I can see that being the one in developing nations and being given to kids.
Correct. And it was only 57% effective in South Africa...against the strain that will likely be the dominant one here soon.
It will be good in developing countries where the single-shot regimen and easy storage are huge issues, but I don't see it helping much here.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 30, 2021, 01:24:41 PM
It will be good in developing countries where the single-shot regimen and easy storage are huge issues, but I don't see it helping much here.
Disagree - there are still big hurdles (transport/storage) using just Pfizer & Moderna. To vaccinate everyone in the US we're gonna' need the 100M doses we agreed to buy from J&J.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 30, 2021, 01:31:05 PM
Disagree - there are still big hurdles (transport/storage) using just Pfizer & Moderna. To vaccinate everyone in the US we're gonna' need the 100M doses we agreed to buy from J&J.
We agreed to buy 100M doses...but there are reports that production is behind schedule, and they
hope to have 30M by the end of April, with the full 100M by mid summer. With the ever-evolving variants, we're gonna be in a world of hurt if we still have that many people waiting for a shot in June.
I'm sure a few million in remote areas will get them, but it will be a drop in the bucket compared to Moderna and Pfizer.
I think the J&J vaccine sounds great for the younger and healthier set. Personally I'm just not trying to spread or get hospitalized. One of those likely comes off the table with JNJ. So a less effective vaccine sounds great.
Why in the hell would Biden give the vaccine to the 9/11 mastermind before Americans? They can all rot in motherfookin' hell, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 30, 2021, 04:03:41 PM
Why in the hell would Biden give the vaccine to the 9/11 mastermind before Americans? They can all rot in motherfookin' hell, aina?
I the outrage machine has been gassed up again.
I'm assuming because they are giving it to the soldiers that are holding them indefinitely.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 30, 2021, 04:03:41 PM
Why in the hell would Biden give the vaccine to the 9/11 mastermind before Americans? They can all rot in motherfookin' hell, aina?
We were told all year that federal government has no ability to do anything with regards to covid. That changed with the change of administration?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 30, 2021, 03:18:34 PM
I think the J&J vaccine sounds great for the younger and healthier set. Personally I'm just not trying to spread or get hospitalized. One of those likely comes off the table with JNJ. So a less effective vaccine sounds great.
Further to my point. No hospitalization and death in the trial in the vaccine group even in SA
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1355627162678644739?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1355627162678644739?s=21)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 30, 2021, 04:03:41 PM
Why in the hell would Biden give the vaccine to the 9/11 mastermind before Americans? They can all rot in motherfookin' hell, aina?
Do you want to know the actual reason?
The real reason is because they want them to face trial as soon as possible for war crimes, and the fasted way to get that done is if they are vaccinated. And since the minimum number of doses that can be sent is 100 (moderna), they can vaccinate the prisoners with the same shipment as the staff that need to be vaccinated.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 30, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Further to my point. No hospitalization and death in the trial in the vaccine group even in SA
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1355627162678644739?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1355627162678644739?s=21)
Right. I guess I don't understand the issue. I never thought the realistic goal was zero hospitalizations and deaths. This type of shot is going to help tremendously.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 30, 2021, 04:05:38 PM
I the outrage machine has been gassed up again.
I'm assuming because they are giving it to the soldiers that are holding them indefinitely.
LOL.
"40 people getting the vaccine that shouldn't?!?!? I'm outraged!"
"Coming up 78 million doses short of 2020 goal? 150x as many dead as on 9-11 and counting? Meh, he couldn't have possibly done better."
Rage and grievance; its the only fuel they know.
Quote from: forgetful on January 30, 2021, 04:34:10 PM
Do you want to know the actual reason?
The real reason is because they want them to face trial as soon as possible for war crimes, and the fasted way to get that done is if they are vaccinated. And insect you the minimum number of doses that can be sent is 100 (moderna), they can vaccinate the prisoners with the same shipment as the staff that need to be vaccinated.
And protect the community in the process.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 30, 2021, 04:29:50 PM
Further to my point. No hospitalization and death in the trial in the vaccine group even in SA
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1355627162678644739?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1355627162678644739?s=21)
Agree; this vaccine
will make a difference. Given that it won't be available for broad distribution until late spring or early summer, it won't get into nearly as many American adults' arms as the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. Instead, in the US it will likely be limited to people at the very end of the line (kids?) and in remote places where the storage requirements are a bigger issue.
In developing countries, it will likely become a vaccine of choice. And that's good news for everyone, because we have seen how quickly this virus can spread around the globe.
My only concern is whether they can get this mass-produced and distributed before the virus mutates into a form that renders it useless. The mutation from the original to the SA variant already decreased efficacy significantly. If that happens again before it gets widely distributed, we may be looking for a new vaccine.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 30, 2021, 04:53:26 PM
And protect the community in the process.
Yes, that is the most significant reason. It will be great if we can try and convict them for war crimes, but the reality is that it has been almost 20 years since 9/11. If they live long enough to be tried, great. I just don't want them to inadvertently contribute to the spread of the virus in the meantime.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 30, 2021, 04:53:27 PM
Agree; this vaccine will make a difference. Given that it won't be available for broad distribution until late spring or early summer, it won't get into nearly as many American adults' arms as the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. Instead, in the US it will likely be limited to people at the very end of the line (kids?) and in remote places where the storage requirements are a bigger issue.
In developing countries, it will likely become a vaccine of choice. And that's good news for everyone, because we have seen how quickly this virus can spread around the globe.
My only concern is whether they can get this mass-produced and distributed before the virus mutates into a form that renders it useless. The mutation from the original to the SA variant already decreased efficacy significantly. If that happens again before it gets widely distributed, we may be looking for a new vaccine.
The counterpoint to this is that it is still an incredible vaccine development from a speed perspective. We need as many as soon as possible — to essentially have supply severely outstrip demand. This helps with that.
It's clear that the mutations mean we need a second round but the mRNA sure seems like a proven nimble solution for boosters at that point.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 30, 2021, 05:28:54 PM
The counterpoint to this is that it is still an incredible vaccine development from a speed perspective. We need as many as soon as possible — to essentially have supply severely outstrip demand. This helps with that.
It's clear that the mutations mean we need a second round but the mRNA sure seems like a proven nimble solution for boosters at that point.
I don't disagree, and hope I haven't led you to believe otherwise.
From a general historical perspective, the development and testing of a safe and effective vaccine less than a year after the detection of a new virus is
incredible. In most past situations, new vaccines take several years, if not longer.
And yes, this will add to the push to get more vaccine into more arms. But again, by the time this gets approved and production and distribution are ramped up, most of the need will be in rural areas and to others at the end of the line. A good 'booster' to the nationwide vaccination efforts, but a relative footnote compared to Moderna and Pfizer.
The biggest difference for this vaccine is the ability to get to remote areas and help in developing countries. In those places, it will be huge.
Bigger picture, I hope this shows Americans what can happen when more $$$ go to biomedical research. We need to continue to do that on an ongoing basis, instead of just in response to a disaster. And it's a win-win: we employ more Americans in good-paying jobs, and will be better prepared for the next global health disaster.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 30, 2021, 03:18:34 PM
I think the J&J vaccine sounds great for the younger and healthier set. Personally I'm just not trying to spread or get hospitalized. One of those likely comes off the table with JNJ. So a less effective vaccine sounds great.
Hoping to have a normal wedding in September and would like to celebrate our honeymoon in SE Asia. I would prefer Moderna or Pfizer but would gladly take the J&J vaccine if it allows us to do those things.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 30, 2021, 04:03:41 PM
Why in the hell would Biden give the vaccine to the 9/11 mastermind before Americans? They can all rot in motherfookin' hell, aina?
Oopsie. Sorry to stoop so low as to use facts. I know they scare you.
Vaccines started arriving in Gitmo January 8th, when Trump was still President. Biden had nothing to do with this. The guy who signed the order is a Pentagon employee who served under Trump. Trump started vaccinating Federal prisoners back in December. Federal Correctional Complex in Butner, North Carolina; federal medical centers in Carswell and Fort Worth, Texas; and FCI Seagoville, all started vaccinating prisoners' over a month ago. Does it bother you that Trump had Bernie Madoff vaccinated before the rest of America?
Once Joe found out about he shut it down
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9205487/Pentagon-pauses-plan-vaccinate-9-11-mastermind-40-terrorists-against-COVID.html
Quote from: pbiflyer on January 30, 2021, 09:28:58 PM
Oopsie. Sorry to stoop so low as to use facts. I know they scare you.
Vaccines started arriving in Gitmo January 8th, when Trump was still President. Biden had nothing to do with this. The guy who signed the order is a Pentagon employee who served under Trump. Trump started vaccinating Federal prisoners back in December. Federal Correctional Complex in Butner, North Carolina; federal medical centers in Carswell and Fort Worth, Texas; and FCI Seagoville, all started vaccinating prisoners' over a month ago. Does it bother you that Trump had Bernie Madoff vaccinated before the rest of America?
Once Joe found out about he shut it down
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9205487/Pentagon-pauses-plan-vaccinate-9-11-mastermind-40-terrorists-against-COVID.html
Republicans have become such sheep.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 30, 2021, 09:45:51 PM
Republicans have become such sheep.
I know a prince in Nigeria that would love to have their emails.
Quote from: pbiflyer on January 30, 2021, 09:28:58 PM
Oopsie. Sorry to stoop so low as to use facts. I know they scare you.
Vaccines started arriving in Gitmo January 8th, when Trump was still President. Biden had nothing to do with this. The guy who signed the order is a Pentagon employee who served under Trump. Trump started vaccinating Federal prisoners back in December. Federal Correctional Complex in Butner, North Carolina; federal medical centers in Carswell and Fort Worth, Texas; and FCI Seagoville, all started vaccinating prisoners' over a month ago. Does it bother you that Trump had Bernie Madoff vaccinated before the rest of America?
Once Joe found out about he shut it down
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9205487/Pentagon-pauses-plan-vaccinate-9-11-mastermind-40-terrorists-against-COVID.html
It was Biden's appointed deputy assistant secretary of defense for health affairs sworn in on Election Day who signed the order. The order was signed January 27th and granted US held Gitmo detainees to receive the COVID vaccination.
Take your lying crap elsewhere. The story you linked and every other story about the detainees getting vaccinated has only Biden and his appointee's fingerprints on it.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 30, 2021, 04:05:38 PM
I the outrage machine has been gassed up again.
I'm assuming because they are giving it to the soldiers that are holding them indefinitely.
Maybe you should have bothered to read up on what actually happened in this story instead of assuming.
Quote from: forgetful on January 30, 2021, 04:34:10 PM
Do you want to know the actual reason?
The real reason is because they want them to face trial as soon as possible for war crimes, and the fasted way to get that done is if they are vaccinated. And since the minimum number of doses that can be sent is 100 (moderna), they can vaccinate the prisoners with the same shipment as the staff that need to be vaccinated.
Finally, someone not lying or assuming. Just that this was authorized by a Biden appointee, and only realizing 3 days later how bad the optics looked on this, paused it.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 30, 2021, 11:07:25 PM
Finally, someone not lying or assuming. Just that this was authorized by a Biden appointee, and only realizing 3 days later how bad the optics looked on this, "paused" it.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 30, 2021, 11:02:01 PM
It was Biden's appointed deputy assistant secretary of defense for health affairs sworn in on Election Day who signed the order. The order was signed January 27th and granted US held Gitmo detainees to receive the COVID vaccination.
Take your lying crap elsewhere. The story you linked and every other story about the detainees being authorized to get vaccinated has only Biden and his appointee's fingerprints on it.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 30, 2021, 11:02:01 PM
It was Biden's appointed deputy assistant secretary of defense for health affairs sworn in on Election Day who signed the order. The order was signed January 27th and granted US held Gitmo detainees to receive the COVID vaccination.
Take your lying crap elsewhere. The story you linked and every other story about the detainees getting vaccinated has only Biden and his appointee's fingerprints on it.
The original order to vaccinate ALL federal prisoners was signed in December. Or are you saying Gitmo detainees aren't in official US custody?
Quote from: pbiflyer on January 30, 2021, 11:31:32 PM
The original order to vaccinate ALL federal prisoners was signed in December. Or are you saying Gitmo detainees aren't in official US custody?
Gitmo detainees are not part of our federal prison system. They're being held in a military prison. And the order or memo (seen it called both) signed last Wednesday, cleared the Gitmo detainees to be vaccinated. Before Wednesday that wasn't the case.
This story can't be spun to fit your political biases.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 30, 2021, 11:51:21 PM
Gitmo detainees are not part of our federal prison system. They're being held in a military prison. And the order or memo (seen it called both) signed last Wednesday, cleared the Gitmo detainees to be vaccinated. Before Wednesday that wasn't the case.
This story can't be spun to fit your political biases.
Just to be cleared about where I should be sending my faux outrage. Federal prison inmates? Totally cool to get them vaccinated before high risk population. Guantanamo Bay inmates? SLEEPY JOE SUCKS!
Got it.
People need to stop getting their britches in any kind of bunch when they hear about other folks getting vaccines. Most of us aren't going to get it for a good long time still -and that's just numbers. There will be some odd ones - most not famous - but some famous. Save your pout-rage for something more important.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 30, 2021, 11:03:44 PM
Maybe you should have bothered to read up on what actually happened in this story instead of assuming.
Here is my opinion. I don't care who gave the order, be it the Trump or the Biden administration.
Using 40 vaccines on Gitmo detainees is fine by me, and getting outraged over this is dumb.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 31, 2021, 01:00:50 AM
People need to stop getting their britches in any kind of bunch when they hear about other folks getting vaccines. Most of us aren't going to get it for a good long time still -and that's just numbers. There will be some odd ones - most not famous - but some famous. Save your pout-rage for something more important.
Exactly. The distribution and administration of the vaccine isn't some big morality play. Its about keeping people healthy so society can return to normal.
When I am told to get it, I will get it. If I am asked tomorrow if I want one, I will get one. If I don't get it until June, that's fine by me.
Not everything needs to be controversial.
Another example of the headlines that should be written about JNJ.
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1355149007220310019?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1355149007220310019?s=21)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 31, 2021, 06:52:29 AM
Here is my opinion. I don't care who gave the order, be it the Trump or the Biden administration.
Using 40 vaccines on Gitmo detainees is fine by me, and getting outraged over this is dumb.
Where have I shown outrage over this? I presented facts to counter pbi's crap filled post of lies. I said the optics look bad. If you, Rocky, and I'mClearlyBiased count that as "outrage", you're the ones who can't handle or defend the b.s. debunked, and instead of moving on, more crap is made up about "outrage" to distract from the truths.
Outraged about 40 shots that never happened but not about the 20 million promised yet not delivered in December or the lies about doses in reserve.
Who's spinning?
6 people were in the right place at the right time during a snowstorm in Oregon and were able to get Covid vaccinations that would have otherwise gone to waste - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-health-workers-administer-vaccines-snowstorm-stranded-motorists-n1256054
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 31, 2021, 07:04:46 AM
Where have I shown outrage over this? I presented facts to counter pbi's crap filled post of lies. I said the optics look bad. If you, Rocky, and I'mClearlyBiased count that as "outrage", you're the ones who can't handle or defend the b.s. debunked, and instead of moving on, more crap is made up about "outrage" to distract from the truths.
Sorry, I didn't mean you expressed outrage. I meant the outrage in general about this, which seeped into Scoop by people like rocket and 4ever.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 31, 2021, 07:51:21 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean you expressed outrage. I meant the outrage in general about this, which seeped into Scoop by people like rocket and 4ever.
Same for me.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 31, 2021, 06:56:13 AM
Exactly. The distribution and administration of the vaccine isn't some big morality play. Its about keeping people healthy so society can return to normal.
When I am told to get it, I will get it. If I am asked tomorrow if I want one, I will get one. If I don't get it until June, that's fine by me.
Not everything needs to be controversial.
This. So much this.
More science, less politics.
Some things.
There is no way a mass vaccination is going to go off without a hitch. Or someone feeling like someone else cut in line.
To even come close requires great planning, preparation and coordination.
There is a supply issue right now.
If it wasn't Guantanamo, it would be something else.
Aside from the issue that many people feel prisoners and detainees are of less importance, in the case of pretrial detainees especially, many will be back out in the community whether sooner or later, and all of them come into contact with other employees, guards, food and maintenance workers, court personnel. An assistant public defender in Cook County died from Covid January 20, and others have contracted it. At least one courthouse completely paused work due to outbreaks among judges and clerical personnel just a month ago.
As far as I'm concerned, if they're vaccinating others in Guantanamo it just makes sense to do everyone.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 30, 2021, 04:05:38 PM
I the outrage machine has been gassed up again.
I'm assuming because they are giving it to the soldiers that are holding them indefinitely.
you are "assuming"? well then, why don't they just say they are giving it to our brave prison guards but NOT to the terrorists?
so mr. sedate, what does it take to "outrage" you if not for getting vaccine to the guys that assassinated over 3,000 of our innocent citizens when so many of our people need it yet?
yes, i realize that since word got out of one of sleepys little brain farts that they had to back pedal a little. i have a feeling that's going to be happening quite a bit over the next 2 years...oh chit, how did they find out...damn leakers eyna?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 31, 2021, 01:00:50 AM
People need to stop getting their britches in any kind of bunch when they hear about other folks getting vaccines. Most of us aren't going to get it for a good long time still -and that's just numbers. There will be some odd ones - most not famous - but some famous. Save your pout-rage for something more important.
just running it thru the same filter as pre jan 20. no matter who is in charge though eyna? waiting for how many scoops of ice cream everyone got at first official WH dinner making sure sleepy didn't sneak an extra scoop :D
We were losing that many per day to COVID while an administration was trying to do away with democracy instead of planning for distribution, supplies, etc.
Yup, bad optics at Gitmo.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 31, 2021, 01:26:06 PM
just running it thru the same filter as pre jan 20. no matter who is in charge though eyna? waiting for how many scoops of ice cream everyone got at first official WH dinner making sure sleepy didn't sneak an extra scoop :D
The "pre jan 20 filter" was that there was nothing anyone could do at a federal level. No? So...I'm confused why you're rambling so much.
Quote from: BLM on January 31, 2021, 01:28:56 PM
The "pre jan 20 filter" was that there was nothing anyone could do at a federal level. No? So...I'm confused why you're rambling so much.
His pals tell him to be outraged. So he's outraged.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 31, 2021, 01:17:50 PM
what does it take to "outrage" you if not for getting vaccine to the guys that assassinated over 3,000 of our innocent citizens when so many of our people need it yet?
yes, i realize that since word got out of one of sleepys little brain farts that they had to back pedal a little. i have a feeling that's going to be happening quite a bit over the next 2 years...oh chit, how did they find out...damn leakers eyna?
if only you were even one iota outraged by the Jan 6 terrorists who staged a deadly insurrection as incited by the then-potus oona?
Prisoners deserve medical care. That includes vaccines, especially during a pandemic.
OT - if you're going to cry about terrorism, then you better espouse the same views toward the Capitol mob, saudi princes, the US military, Israel...anyone commiting acts of terrorism across the globe.
Otherwise, you're no different than any other partisan hack
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 31, 2021, 02:29:23 PM
Prisoners deserve medical care. That includes vaccines, especially during a pandemic.
OT - if you're going to cry about terrorism, then you better espouse the same views toward the Capitol mob, saudi princes, the US military, Israel...anyone commiting acts of terrorism across the globe.
Otherwise, you're no different than any other partisan hack
I think the Q'Anon Shaman deserves to be vaccinated despite the fact that he engaged in an insurrection meant to overturn the result of a legitimate election.
Quote from: MU82 on January 31, 2021, 02:10:33 PM
if only you were even one iota outraged by the Jan 6 terrorists who staged a deadly insurrection as incited by the then-potus oona?
oh, i was outraged as much as anyone, but please try to get yer chit straight and stop watching CNN et al. they've all proven to be nothing but propagandists and wrong so many times if you just allow the real story to come out. that was all bad, but it was more than previous potus....way more. now that they've got tiananmen square all protected, careful what they wish for. they are poking the sleeping dog buddy. all of us should be very concerned for what "they" can do to any of us
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 31, 2021, 02:57:34 PM
oh, i was outraged as much as anyone, but please try to get yer chit straight and stop watching CNN et al. they've all proven to be nothing but propagandists and wrong so many times if you just allow the real story to come out. that was all bad, but it was more than previous potus....way more. now that they've got tiananmen square all protected, careful what they wish for. they are poking the sleeping dog buddy. all of us should be very concerned for what "they" can do to any of us
I'm terrified.
sleepy better get his chit together cuz the clock is ticking and people are dying. he promised 100 million vaccinations in 100 days starting on day one. and no fuzzy math like that of the emmy award winning cuomo guy
https://rfangle.com/politics/biden-administration-loses-20-million-vaccine/
They increased the target and are vaccinating over 1.5 million per day as of last week. So the promise from the admin is not 100 million in 100 days.
Oh, sew dat's da plan, hey?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 31, 2021, 05:34:55 PM
sleepy better get his chit together cuz the clock is ticking and people are dying. he promised 100 million vaccinations in 100 days starting on day one. and no fuzzy math like that of the emmy award winning cuomo guy
https://rfangle.com/politics/biden-administration-loses-20-million-vaccine/
Dude complains about propaganda, then posts an article from the RFAngle.
Is that better or worse than the russian state media source from that other guy.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 31, 2021, 06:00:03 PM
Is that better or worse than the russian state media source from that other guy.
That's a legit question, had to look it up. Sounds like worse source than Russian state media:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-rfangle/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rt-news/amp/
Anyhow, back to vaccines. 49M distributed, and 31M administered as of today. Sounds like it's going fine. Though admittedly, that count may need to be 200M distributed to get to 100M vaccinated. I'm not sure how they're counting.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations
Good news, early this week there will be more people vaccinated than total (counted) covid positive people.
Can anyone translate this?
"now that they've got tiananmen square all protected" --> what is tiananmen square in this sentence?
"they are poking the sleeping dog buddy." --> Who is "they" and who is "the sleeping dog"? And in what way has the dog been poked?
Quote from: reinko on January 31, 2021, 05:47:19 PM
Dude complains about propaganda, then posts an article from the RFAngle.
This had me literally laughing out loud.
Quote from: TSmith34 on January 31, 2021, 06:35:58 PM
Can anyone translate this?
"now that they've got tiananmen square all protected" --> what is tiananmen square in this sentence?
"they are poking the sleeping dog buddy." --> Who is "they" and who is "the sleeping dog"? And in what way has the dog been poked?
Using context clues I think the sleeping dog is named Buddy.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 31, 2021, 06:11:32 PM
That's a legit question, had to look it up. Sounds like worse source than Russian state media:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-rfangle/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rt-news/amp/
Anyhow, back to vaccines. 49M distributed, and 31M administered as of today. Sounds like it's going fine. Though admittedly, that count may need to be 200M distributed to get to 100M vaccinated. I'm not sure how they're counting.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations
Good news, early this week there will be more people vaccinated than total (counted) covid positive people.
and if J&J gets approval soon many more doses will be ready in the very near future.
Quote from: injuryBug on January 31, 2021, 07:14:59 PM
and if J&J gets approval soon many more doses will be ready in the very near future.
I'm not sure how you define 'many more' doses or the 'very near future' but an article I read the other day says they expect to have 30 million available by late April. That's three months away.
A nice thing to have, but that won't even fill the need in remote areas that don't have refrigeration for the mRNA vaccines.
Interesting op-ed in the NYT by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on how vaccinating professional athletes would be good role-modeling for Black people, many of whom are skeptical about vaccines because of heinous acts perpetrated against the race in past decades. He says it would be similar to when Elvis got the polio vaccine.
Kareem disagrees with Barkley that athletes should step to the front of the line because they pay more taxes than others.
That argument suggests that the lives of those who make more money (and presumably pay more taxes) are somehow more valuable than the nurses, police officers, emergency medical workers, grocery clerks, and others risking their lives daily. This is, of course, untrue. NBA players don't deserve to move to the front of the line because they are rich or because the country needs basketball during these isolating times. It's not a matter of deserving as much as a way to get to herd immunity faster.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/opinion/nba-covid-vaccine-kareem-abdul-jabbar.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210201&instance_id=26625&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=50744&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Really good tweet that shows how the vaccines are all really going to help.
https://twitter.com/dankmccoy/status/1356243098146385920?s=20
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 01, 2021, 08:21:23 AM
Really good tweet that shows how the vaccines are all really going to help.
https://twitter.com/dankmccoy/status/1356243098146385920?s=20
That was a great piece. For those who want to read the whole article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/briefing/vaccination-myanmar-coup-rochester-police.html
Another interesting paragraph:
Last week, Dr. William Schaffner of Vanderbilt University told my colleague Denise Grady about a conversation he had with other experts. During it, they imagined that a close relative had to choose between getting the Johnson & Johnson vaccine now or waiting three weeks to get the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine. "All of us said, 'Get the one tomorrow,'" Schaffner said. "The virus is bad. You're risking three more weeks of exposure as opposed to getting protection tomorrow."
https://www.radio.com/wbbm780/news/soulcycle-instructor-gets-covid-vaccine-sparks-controversy
Don't be this person...
Quote from: Warriors4ever on February 01, 2021, 12:10:59 PM
https://www.radio.com/wbbm780/news/soulcycle-instructor-gets-covid-vaccine-sparks-controversy
Don't be this person...
Vaccine shaming is going to be a thing for awhile I guess.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 01, 2021, 12:14:16 PM
Vaccine shaming is going to be a thing for awhile I guess.
Yep. And it'll probably take lots of forms.
I heard a troubling one the other day, but can't find the link. A pregnant teacher went to get her shot, which was being administered by National Guard troops who were not healthcare professionals, but trained just to give the shots to pre-screened people. When the teacher got to the front of the line, the person administering the vaccine tried to talk her out of it, and said she was going to 'hurt her baby' by getting vaccinated while pregnant. This, despite the fact that leading experts (the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine and the CDC) all say the mRNA vaccines are safe for pregnant women.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/wondering-about-covid-19-vaccines-if-youre-pregnant-or-breastfeeding-2021010721722
Quote from: Warriors4ever on February 01, 2021, 12:10:59 PM
https://www.radio.com/wbbm780/news/soulcycle-instructor-gets-covid-vaccine-sparks-controversy
Don't be this person...
In all fairness, what did she do wrong? The rules in her state permit her to get the vaccine.
In states where they consider a former smoker, or someone who is overweight, phase 1B, are they wrong for getting the vaccine when available to them? What about states letting restaurant and food service workers to get the vaccine?
I'd argue, the only thing she did wrong, was be insensitive to the fact that a lot of people are struggling to find the vaccine, and boasting about the fact that she was able to get it is a bit insensitive. But the act of getting it, nothing wrong with it.
Quote from: forgetful on February 01, 2021, 01:45:59 PM
In all fairness, what did she do wrong? The rules in her state permit her to get the vaccine.
In states where they consider a former smoker, or someone who is overweight, phase 1B, are they wrong for getting the vaccine when available to them? What about states letting restaurant and food service workers to get the vaccine?
I'd argue, the only thing she did wrong, was be insensitive to the fact that a lot of people are struggling to find the vaccine, and boasting about the fact that she was able to get it is a bit insensitive. But the act of getting it, nothing wrong with it.
Exactly. Again we need to stop the morality play around this.
Quote from: forgetful on February 01, 2021, 01:45:59 PM
In all fairness, what did she do wrong? The rules in her state permit her to get the vaccine.
In states where they consider a former smoker, or someone who is overweight, phase 1B, are they wrong for getting the vaccine when available to them? What about states letting restaurant and food service workers to get the vaccine?
I'd argue, the only thing she did wrong, was be insensitive to the fact that a lot of people are struggling to find the vaccine, and boasting about the fact that she was able to get it is a bit insensitive. But the act of getting it, nothing wrong with it.
Competent agree. If the end goal is a high percentage of the population vaccinated, let it happen. Outside of outright fraud or shady "pay to play" scenarios, which this clearly is not, people need to chill and stop being the arbiter of "fair"
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 01, 2021, 01:13:35 PM
Yep. And it'll probably take lots of forms.
I heard a troubling one the other day, but can't find the link. A pregnant teacher went to get her shot, which was being administered by National Guard troops who were not healthcare professionals, but trained just to give the shots to pre-screened people. When the teacher got to the front of the line, the person administering the vaccine tried to talk her out of it, and said she was going to 'hurt her baby' by getting vaccinated while pregnant. This, despite the fact that leading experts (the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine and the CDC) all say the mRNA vaccines are safe for pregnant women.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/wondering-about-covid-19-vaccines-if-youre-pregnant-or-breastfeeding-2021010721722
From the Harvard blog you linked: "However, the World Health Organization (WHO) recommends against using mRNA vaccines in pregnant women unless the benefit to an individual outweighs potential vaccine risks." My youngest is due with her first this month. Her OB/GYN had OK'ed her schedule for the vaccine (she's a teacher) but then told her to cancel, citing the WHO advisory.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on February 01, 2021, 02:00:35 PM
From the Harvard blog you linked: "However, the World Health Organization (WHO) recommends against using mRNA vaccines in pregnant women unless the benefit to an individual outweighs potential vaccine risks." My youngest is due with her first this month. Her OB/GYN had OK'ed her schedule for the vaccine (she's a teacher) but then told her to cancel, citing the WHO advisory.
You missed my point: that it was inappropriate for the National Guard person, who was NOT a trained healthcare provider, to be giving her advice on this, and trying to shame her by saying she would 'hurt her baby.'
And frankly, when the CDC, ACOG and SMFM all say 'yes' and WHO says 'maybe,' the great majority of experts seem to be comfortable with it. If there were any real concerns, they would all be saying 'NO' in big, bold capital letters.
Gotcha. Unless the National Guard troops were instructed not to give it to pregnant women? I haven't seen the story you referenced, so I'll take your word on the inappropriateness.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on February 01, 2021, 02:53:04 PM
Gotcha. Unless the National Guard troops were instructed not to give it to pregnant women? I haven't seen the story you referenced, so I'll take your word on the inappropriateness.
Yeah - sorry I can't find the story. It was either on the TV news or maybe NPR, and I can't find a transcript or story. But they made it quite apparent that it was just one NG member expressing his opinion that she was making a bad decision. When she insisted, they gave her the shot.
Anyway, I think it's reasonable for a pregnant woman to go whichever way she feels most comfortable with, after consulting with her doc. If some percentage of pregnant women are the only people who decide to wait, our national vaccine effort will be just fine.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 01, 2021, 01:47:46 PM
Exactly. Again we need to stop the morality play around this.
yes and if we could "circle back" on any number of topics here, i wish the same attitude would have been taken
I'm going to disagree -the reason I posted it is because it's questionable whether she is an educator as envisioned by the tiers -by her logic, my personal trainer is an educator too. I think that's why she is getting flack.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 01, 2021, 08:15:28 PM
yes and if we could "circle back" on any number of topics here, i wish the same attitude would have been taken
Like pushing the use of Hydroxy?
Quote from: Warriors4ever on February 01, 2021, 08:24:38 PM
I'm going to disagree -the reason I posted it is because it's questionable whether she is an educator as envisioned by the tiers -by her logic, my personal trainer is an educator too. I think that's why she is getting flack.
The state where she resides allowed her to get the shot. As long as she was truthful with her replies, thats the only thing she has to worry about.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 01, 2021, 08:15:28 PM
yes and if we could "circle back" on any number of topics here, i wish the same attitude would have been taken
Care to list a few of those topics?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 01, 2021, 08:28:49 PM
The state where she resides allowed her to get the shot. As long as she was truthful with her replies, thats the only thing she has to worry about.
That's the part that makes the difference, IMO. If she answered the questions honestly and the state allowed her to get a vaccine, then any issue is with the state and not her.
It could be in the wording, but New York guidelines refer to preschool through high school educators, in-person college, and child care instructors/ providers though I haven't looked at their questionnaire. And the Mayor's office says she didn't fit. Which leads me to believe that she stretched the definition of educator.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 30, 2021, 07:52:20 AM
so nice to see lunch pail joe getting the vaccine to the gitmo "miscreants" before most of our level 1, 2 and even 3 CITIZENS get it are we out of our collective minds? get the damn thing to our teachers so we can justify their paychecks at least and get our kids back in school. gitmo should be the least of our worries
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/536431-guantanamo-bay-prisoners-to-be-offered-coronavirus-vaccines
Spare me your outrage, just pop some HCQ.
Checking in with everyone's favorite in over his head, Barney Fife Sheriff, Missouri Governor, Mike Anti-Masker Parson...
After fumbling all things Pandemic, (and anything and everything else,)
Surely the Vaccine rollout has to be going well, right?
Wait, what's that Missouri has been in a fierce battle with Alabama for 50 out of 50 ranking for state Vaccines. Several hundred thousand in the state's largest country registered and waiting while 5k had been vaccinated as of this past week.
I wonder if there is anything else. Oh wait, there is. Interesting vaccination site strategy here:
https://twitter.com/tonymess/status/1356747511789219840?s=19
'Tale of two cities.' Racial disparity found in who gets vaccines in Charlotte
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article248956709.html?ac_cid=DM378104&ac_bid=-657420267
More than two-thirds of the people vaccinated by Mecklenburg County Public Health are white, according to data released Tuesday that provided a race and ethnicity breakdown for the first time at the local level.
Only 16% of people given first doses of the COVID-19 vaccines by the health department have been Black. That's a big disparity compared to the county's demographics, which show nearly 32% of people in Mecklenburg are Black, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates.
By contrast, 69% of people given first doses by the county are white, and white people comprise 54% of the county population.
And people living in the "wedge" of Charlotte — a collection of affluent neighborhoods in south Charlotte — are receiving vaccines at a higher rate than many other Charlotteans, a ZIP code map released by county Public Health Director Gibbie Harris Tuesday shows.
"We do see some under-representation in our people of color," Harris told county commissioners during their board meeting Tuesday night. "It is not what we would want it to be. We know we need to continue our work in these areas."
People in the "crescent" of Charlotte — a band of high-poverty neighborhoods in the west, north and east of Charlotte —are receiving vaccines at lower rates than those in the wedge.
"You literally have a tale of two cities," the Rev. Willie Keaton, chairman of social justice advocacy group Restorative Justice CLT, told the Observer. "You have a deeply segregated city, of rich and poor. You have the wedge and the crescent."
Quote from: MU82 on February 03, 2021, 07:54:59 AM
'Tale of two cities.' Racial disparity found in who gets vaccines in Charlotte
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article248956709.html?ac_cid=DM378104&ac_bid=-657420267
More than two-thirds of the people vaccinated by Mecklenburg County Public Health are white, according to data released Tuesday that provided a race and ethnicity breakdown for the first time at the local level.
Only 16% of people given first doses of the COVID-19 vaccines by the health department have been Black. That's a big disparity compared to the county's demographics, which show nearly 32% of people in Mecklenburg are Black, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates.
By contrast, 69% of people given first doses by the county are white, and white people comprise 54% of the county population.
And people living in the "wedge" of Charlotte — a collection of affluent neighborhoods in south Charlotte — are receiving vaccines at a higher rate than many other Charlotteans, a ZIP code map released by county Public Health Director Gibbie Harris Tuesday shows.
"We do see some under-representation in our people of color," Harris told county commissioners during their board meeting Tuesday night. "It is not what we would want it to be. We know we need to continue our work in these areas."
People in the "crescent" of Charlotte — a band of high-poverty neighborhoods in the west, north and east of Charlotte —are receiving vaccines at lower rates than those in the wedge.
"You literally have a tale of two cities," the Rev. Willie Keaton, chairman of social justice advocacy group Restorative Justice CLT, told the Observer. "You have a deeply segregated city, of rich and poor. You have the wedge and the crescent."
Allow me to break this down a bit. I'm not trying to rationalize that inherent systemic racism in our society, but look at it like this. I would wager a healthy amount of money that the vast majority of health care workers and folks in 1a are white. This explains some of the disparity. Additionally, BIPOC tend to be more hesitant about vaccines. And they have every right to have these views considering the despicable past that our society has of experimenting on them.
I'm not sure that vaccines are being held back from BIPOC, but our country's past actions and current systemic racism probably have a lot more to do with it.
I'm not as sure as you are Hards about the demographics of 1A. There's a huge Indian and East Asian population of doctors, latinx populations are filling the nursing shortages, and support staff in healthcare tends to be BIPOC. I mean it may still be majority white but not as disproportionately so that it accounts for the lack of vaccine in BIPOC populations.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 03, 2021, 12:41:39 PM
I'm not as sure as you are Hards about the demographics of 1A. There's a huge Indian and East Asian population of doctors, latinx populations are filling the nursing shortages, and support staff in healthcare tends to be BIPOC. I mean it may still be majority white but not as disproportionately so that it accounts for the lack of vaccine in BIPOC populations.
I don't disagree with you, but this article specifically mentioned Black. I should have been more clear.
Milwaukee site opened early, scored for my 65+ parents vaccine appointments for one today, and one tomorrow.
https://city.milwaukee.gov/CoronavirusResources/Covid19-Vaccination
***Do need to be an City of MKE resident or City of MKE employee
Good conversation, Hards and Galway. Appreciate your perspective.
I mean, it's not surprising that ethnic minorities and/or the poor are falling behind in vaccinations. It's a population that has relatively poor access to health care overall.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 03, 2021, 03:25:48 PM
I mean, it's not surprising that ethnic minorities and/or the poor are falling behind in vaccinations. It's a population that has relatively poor access to health care overall.
That, plus many still harbor a distrust of a system that has abused them in the past (
see, Tuskegee Syphilis Study, Henrietta Lacks).
NFL offers the use of all NFL stadiums for Covid mass-vaccination efforts.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/nfl-offers-biden-football-stadiums-for-covid-vaccination-sites-.html
Great gesture. Hopefully we can speed up the supply lines so we need huge vaccination sites....
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 03, 2021, 03:25:48 PM
I mean, it's not surprising that ethnic minorities and/or the poor are falling behind in vaccinations. It's a population that has relatively poor access to health care overall.
Part of it could be lack of access to computers. Can only speak for Florida, but most of the appointments available here are made via computer.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 05, 2021, 02:01:52 PM
NFL offers the use of all NFL stadiums for Covid mass-vaccination efforts.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/nfl-offers-biden-football-stadiums-for-covid-vaccination-sites-.html
Great gesture. Hopefully we can speed up the supply lines so we need huge vaccination sites....
Read today that with the defense production act measures Biden is putting in place, they think they can get over 400M doses of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines by early summer. Possibly enough to vaccinate every American by the end of summer. Obviously, there could be/will be some hiccups but that's a heck of an improvement from thinking vaccination would take into 2022.
Quote from: forgetful on February 05, 2021, 09:19:21 PM
Read today that with the defense production act measures Biden is putting in place, they think they can get over 400M doses of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines by early summer. Possibly enough to vaccinate every American by the end of summer. Obviously, their could be/will be some hiccups but that's a heck of an improvement from thinking vaccination would take into 2022.
That would be absolutely remarkable.
A good summary in vaccine efficacy.
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1358497428706635776?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1358497428706635776?s=21)
South Africa halts use of Astra Zeneca vaccine because it does not prevent illness caused by the SA variant. Another reason to step on the gas and get everybody vaccinated as quickly as possible, before too many more resistant variance arise.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/02/07/world/covid-19-coronavirus#south-africa-astrazeneca-vaccine
South Africa halted use of the AstraZeneca-Oxford coronavirus vaccine on Sunday after evidence emerged that the vaccine did not protect clinical-trial participants from mild or moderate illness caused by the more contagious virus variant that was first seen there.
The findings were a devastating blow to the country's efforts to combat the pandemic.
Scientists in South Africa said on Sunday that a similar problem held among people who had been infected by earlier versions of the coronavirus: the immunity they acquired naturally did not appear to protect them from mild or moderate cases when reinfected by the variant, known as B.1.351.
That truly is craptity news. We really need to crank up production of the mRNA vaccines.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55975052
As the average age in the trial was 32, they cannot make any conclusions as to whether it protects against severe cases.
It apparently does help against the UK variant, but this is clearly a big setback.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 07, 2021, 04:30:26 PM
That truly is craptity news. We really need to crank up production of the mRNA vaccines.
Yep. Invoke the DPA, find every facility qualified to make the vaccines, and run them 24/7.
That is the plan.
Quote from: tower912 on February 07, 2021, 06:19:10 PM
That is the plan.
Imagine if that was the plan months ago.
Quote from: pbiflyer on February 07, 2021, 08:44:22 PM
Imagine if that was the plan months ago.
What? The "waiting for a miracle" plan already was in place. So was the "declare victory" plan.
How could anybody have known those wouldn't work?
I dont know what this means for safety/efficacy re-trials or how quickly the production line can be changed, but AZ already working on a tweak to the vaccine to cover mutations and will be read in 6 weeks.
Additionally, the SA trial that necessitated the pause could not assess protection against severe COVID or death because the trial skewed too small and too young. Seems like an odd move by the government to shut it down based on that info.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/astrazeneca-races-to-adapt-covid-vaccine-as-south-africa-halts-rollout.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/astrazeneca-races-to-adapt-covid-vaccine-as-south-africa-halts-rollout.html)
Clearly we are all getting boosters for a foreseeable amount of time....so knowing that, all i need to know to take a vaccine is that it offers some protection.
PS it seems like AZ has not had a clear cut trial yet. What a failure versus some of the others.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 08, 2021, 01:33:33 PM
I dont know what this means for safety/efficacy re-trials or how quickly the production line can be changed, but AZ already working on a tweak to the vaccine to cover mutations and will be read in 6 weeks.
Additionally, the SA trial that necessitated the pause could not assess protection against severe COVID or death because the trial skewed too small and too young. Seems like an odd move by the government to shut it down based on that info.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/astrazeneca-races-to-adapt-covid-vaccine-as-south-africa-halts-rollout.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/astrazeneca-races-to-adapt-covid-vaccine-as-south-africa-halts-rollout.html)
Clearly we are all getting boosters for a foreseeable amount of time....so knowing that, all i need to know to take a vaccine is that it offers some protection.
PS it seems like AZ has not had a clear cut trial yet. What a failure versus some of the others.
Interesting, and disappointing.
Regarding the question of safety and efficacy trials for vaccines that are changed to deal with variants: for 'traditional' vaccines using platforms that have long safety profiles (like the annual flu shot), regulators don't require much. That will probably be the case for the AZ vaccine, which uses an adenovirus platform. For the new are mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna, the question is still unresolved as far as I know.
I've always found Gottlieb to be pretty accurate in his assessments. It would be great if his prediction on the point where supply > demand is right.
https://twitter.com/scottgottliebmd/status/1359532849553158145?s=21 (https://twitter.com/scottgottliebmd/status/1359532849553158145?s=21)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 10, 2021, 03:03:48 PM
I've always found Gottlieb to be pretty accurate in his assessments. It would be great if his prediction on the point where supply > demand is right.
https://twitter.com/scottgottliebmd/status/1359532849553158145?s=21 (https://twitter.com/scottgottliebmd/status/1359532849553158145?s=21)
Yes, it would be fabulous if we get to that point by April. My personal prediction is that I'll get it in June because I'm near the end of the priority line...but I would
love to be wrong.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/us/houston-doctor-fired-covid-vaccine.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
This is without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read regarding the vaccine rollout and a perfect example of bureaucratic incompetence and a DA who is a moron. Everyone agrees with following the priority groups and its pretty clear this doctor tried to do that, but given how the vaccine is distributed, there are real situations where vaccine is leftover. The vaccine comes in large vials where you get 10 or even 11 doses in each vial. Once the seal is broken, the vaccine needs to be used asap(6 hours). Anyone arguing for throwing good vaccine away fails to miss the very simple point that vaccines only work when in someone's arm. Obviously you would want that vaccine in a 1a or 1b individual, but if that's not possible for whatever reason, then anyone is better than no one.
Its not about fairness or equity when the alternative is throwing away perfectly good vaccine, but being resourceful so it doesn't take double the amount of vaccine to vaccinate one person.
It's doubtful he gets indicted, and no way he is getting convicted. The district attorney is an idiot. His superiors should have threatened to resign en masse.
Quote from: Warrior2008 on February 11, 2021, 08:44:47 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/us/houston-doctor-fired-covid-vaccine.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
This is without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read regarding the vaccine rollout and a perfect example of bureaucratic incompetence and a DA who is a moron. Everyone agrees with following the priority groups and its pretty clear this doctor tried to do that, but given how the vaccine is distributed, there are real situations where vaccine is leftover. The vaccine comes in large vials where you get 10 or even 11 doses in each vial. Once the seal is broken, the vaccine needs to be used asap(6 hours). Anyone arguing for throwing good vaccine away fails to miss the very simple point that vaccines only work when in someone's arm. Obviously you would want that vaccine in a 1a or 1b individual, but if that's not possible for whatever reason, then anyone is better than no one.
Its not about fairness or equity when the alternative is throwing away perfectly good vaccine, but being resourceful so it doesn't take double the amount of vaccine to vaccinate one person.
It should be about that, but...
Just got my second Shingles vax shot, and was informed that the advice is to not get the COVID vax for two weeks. Shouldn't be an issue, unfortunately.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on February 11, 2021, 02:43:32 PM
Just got my second Shingles vax shot, and was informed that the advice is to not get the COVID vax for two weeks. Shouldn't be an issue, unfortunately.
Yeah its one of the questions they ask you when you register for your covid vax.
Biden has secured enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone by July. Of 2020!
This has been done in 3 weeks with almost nothing in place when he took over.
How many of the almost 500,000 deaths are now on one incompetent fool? And those who voted for and supported him?
Yeah, dat fookin' fool only got da vaccine in motion, and in warp speed, while in office so C'mon Man Joe could be the hero and place an order, with one swift stroke of his pen. Oh, how easy, but we won't go there, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2021, 09:29:42 AM
Yeah, dat fookin' fool only got da vaccine in motion, and in warp speed, while in office so C'mon Man Joe could be the hero and place an order, with one swift stroke of his pen. Oh, how easy, but we won't go there, hey?
I'm just happy he remembers what a pen is and how to use it at his advanced age, hey doc?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2021, 09:29:42 AM
Yeah, dat fookin' fool only got da vaccine in motion, and in warp speed, while in office so C'mon Man Joe could be the hero and place an order, with one swift stroke of his pen. Oh, how easy, but we won't go there, hey?
Didn't Pfizer only take funds from the German version of warp speed?
For now, until the Party ushers him outta office. Doubt folks in the energy industry are thrilled with his penmanship, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2021, 09:29:42 AM
Yeah, dat fookin' fool only got da vaccine in motion, and in warp speed, while in office so C'mon Man Joe could be the hero and place an order, with one swift stroke of his pen. Oh, how easy, but we won't go there, hey?
Yep. He managed to do one thing right in 10 months.
Best President of your lifetime ai'na?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 12, 2021, 09:33:47 AM
Didn't Pfizer only take funds from the German version of warp speed?
Yes, and because they did not accept funds from warp speed, Trump's government refused to give them any priorities for essential reagents, and refused to give them priority for essential infrastructure/equipment, delaying production.
Biden immediately undid that, use the DPA to secure reagents and equipment, so that we could likely 1/2 the time needed to vaccinate everyone.
Quote from: forgetful on February 12, 2021, 10:48:25 AM
Yes, and because they did not accept funds from warp speed, Trump's government refused to give them any priorities for essential reagents, and refused to give them priority for essential infrastructure/equipment, delaying production.
Biden immediately undid that, use the DPA to secure reagents and equipment, so that we could likely 1/2 the time needed to vaccinate everyone.
This makes sense. Was wondering why my question was ignored.
Quote from: Jockey on February 12, 2021, 09:24:52 AM
How many of the almost 500,000 deaths are now on one incompetent fool?
False!
I think you ae overlooking the substantial help from Secretary Of Failure Jared.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2021, 09:34:39 AM
For now, until the Party ushers him outta office. Doubt folks in the energy industry are thrilled with his penmanship, hey?
You want to compare the energy industry versus all the industries Trump left empty promises with?
Blood on your hands, but keep going.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 12, 2021, 09:43:09 AM
Yep. He managed to do one thing right in 10 months.
Best President of your lifetime ai'na?
Warp speed was great and accelerated the trials. My question is that we put up all that money up front to get those companies to manufacture immediately regardless of the outcome of the trial -- doesn't seem to have worked on that front. JNJ in particular.
F.D.A. Agrees Moderna Can Increase Vaccine Supply in Each Vial
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/12/us/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-supply.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
A good move, but it will likely take Moderna until April to retool production to accommodate the change. Seems like this is something the company and regulators should have discussed months ago.
That would have required caring, planning, and coordination.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on February 11, 2021, 02:43:32 PM
Just got my second Shingles vax shot, and was informed that the advice is to not get the COVID vax for two weeks. Shouldn't be an issue, unfortunately.
I was offered the Shingles vax a month ago, and declined for this very reason. I can wait a year, hopefully.
The past four days, 7.6 million doses have been administered in the US.
Quote from: BM1090 on February 14, 2021, 11:33:46 AM
The past four days, 7.6 million doses have been administered in the US.
This is great news and with the supply increases on the horizon, should really open up the floodgates. Maybe I should temper my enthusiasm, but I actually believe I may get a chance at vaccine in April.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 14, 2021, 11:54:28 AM
This is great news and with the supply increases on the horizon, should really open up the floodgates. Maybe I should temper my enthusiasm, but I actually believe I may get a chance at vaccine in April.
When we first saw the haphazard rollout and learned about the illusory 'stockpile,' I was expecting mine in June or July. Now that the DPA has been invoked and we are seeing more federal-state coordination, I am hoping my vax date might move up a couple of months. I would be happy with May, and elated with anything earlier.
I have also been checking websites of the local public health department and other providers, to see if they start a signup for 'on call' backups in case people with appointments don't show up. Nothing here yet, but as they get past the frontline workers and very elderly, that might change. And I would drop most anything if I got a call saying I could get a shot that would otherwise be discarded.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 14, 2021, 01:00:07 PM
When we first saw the haphazard rollout and learned about the illusory 'stockpile,' I was expecting mine in June or July. Now that the DPA has been invoked and we are seeing more federal-state coordination, I am hoping my vax date might move up a couple of months. I would be happy with May, and elated with anything earlier.
I have also been checking websites of the local public health department and other providers, to see if they start a signup for 'on call' backups in case people with appointments don't show up. Nothing here yet, but as they get past the frontline workers and very elderly, that might change. And I would drop most anything if I got a call saying I could get a shot that would otherwise be discarded.
I'm with yooooooo, Gooooooo.
I'm waiting hopefully for the day that NC or our county or whomever is in charge starts doing this. I'd be happy to be on an on-call list, and would hot-foot it to the vaccination site if called.
My only concern would be the second shot. Would I be guaranteed that I'd get it within 3-4 weeks as is mandated if I got my first one as an on-call recipient?
Quote from: MU82 on February 14, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
My only concern would be the second shot. Would I be guaranteed that I'd get it within 3-4 weeks as is mandated if I got my first one as an on-call recipient?
Oh course, this is all up to the provider/state. But most providers that give a 1st shot will put you on a list to schedule for a second shot. You *shouldn't* have to chase down the 2nd shot yourself - you'd likely receive a call about when it can be/has been scheduled for you. If they're really organized, they might even schedule the 2nd when you get the first.
Quote from: MU82 on February 14, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
I'm with yooooooo, Gooooooo.
I'm waiting hopefully for the day that NC or our county or whomever is in charge starts doing this. I'd be happy to be on an on-call list, and would hot-foot it to the vaccination site if called.
My only concern would be the second shot. Would I be guaranteed that I'd get it within 3-4 weeks as is mandated if I got my first one as an on-call recipient?
Most vaccine clinics I've heard about plan to have the same number of doses available for the second shots in 3/4 weeks. Here, we had recent 'first dose' clinics for people over 65, teachers and childcare providers. The following excerpt from the county health department's website describes the 'follow up' clinic:
State of Minnesota COVID-19 Vaccine Pilot Program: The state held two COVID-19 Vaccine Pilot Program (VPP) clinics in Rochester in January for educators, childcare providers and individuals over the age of 65. Second doses will be administered in Rochester on February 11, 12 and 13 and February 18, 19 and 20. Only those who received the first dose at one of the January clinics are eligible to attend the clinic.My guess: If there is a 'no-show' program, once you 'filled in' for the no-show, you would be given his/her place in line to receive the second dose...perhaps with the first-dose vaccine card as your admission ticket.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 14, 2021, 01:00:07 PM
When we first saw the haphazard rollout and learned about the illusory 'stockpile,' I was expecting mine in June or July. Now that the DPA has been invoked and we are seeing more federal-state coordination, I am hoping my vax date might move up a couple of months. I would be happy with May, and elated with anything earlier.
Same, I was looking at end of May based on where I was on the waiting list originally, but I've already moved up to mid-April and expect that to improve further with the way things are moving.
I've seen some tweets talking about a demand shortage sometime in April. Since there are a lot of skeptical people, those of us that want it maybe getting it sooner than expected. Selfishly, that gets my hopes up to get the vaccine sooner, but that's probably not the best for us as a cou try.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 14, 2021, 03:18:02 PM
I've seen some tweets talking about a demand shortage sometime in April. Since there are a lot of skeptical people, those of us that want it maybe getting it sooner than expected. Selfishly, that gets my hopes up to get the vaccine sooner, but that's probably not the best for us as a cou try.
Yep. I would love to get my vaccine sooner, but eventually we need to get the doubters on board as well. Hopefully there will be no reports of widespread side effects and people will gradually join in.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 14, 2021, 04:02:03 PM
...eventually we need to get the doubters on board as well...
I haven't heard much relative to the "HOW" for that issue. I'd personally hope that some form of incentive can address part of the issue (like what Kroger is doing: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kroger-covid-vaccine-workers-100-dollars/) but suspect there may need to be some level of penalty. Can health insurance providers bump up rates not dissimilar to discounts for non-smokers? Any plans already being made for when supply overtakes demand?
Quote from: lostpassword on February 14, 2021, 06:55:38 PM
I haven't heard much relative to the "HOW" for that issue. I'd personally hope that some form of incentive can address part of the issue (like what Kroger is doing: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kroger-covid-vaccine-workers-100-dollars/) but suspect there may need to be some level of penalty. Can health insurance providers bump up rates not dissimilar to discounts for non-smokers? Any plans already being made for when supply overtakes demand?
Yeah, maybe incentives, or maybe requiring proof of vaccination to get into places like sporting events and festivals. And eventually when we get vaccines approved for kids, proof of vaccination to go to school.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 14, 2021, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah, maybe incentives, or maybe requiring proof of vaccination to get into places like sporting events and festivals. And eventually when we get vaccines approved for kids, proof of vaccination to go to school.
Yeah but in some states you can opt out of the vaccinations for your kids for religious or personal reasons so I'm not sure how effective that would be for schools.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 14, 2021, 01:10:14 PM
Oh course, this is all up to the provider/state. But most providers that give a 1st shot will put you on a list to schedule for a second shot. You *shouldn't* have to chase down the 2nd shot yourself - you'd likely receive a call about when it can be/has been scheduled for you. If they're really organized, they might even schedule the 2nd when you get the first.
This has been the case with everyone I know who has gotten the first shot - in three different states/health systems. They walked out after their first shot with an appointment for their second shot.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on February 14, 2021, 07:41:26 PM
Yeah but in some states you can opt out of the vaccinations for your kids for religious or personal reasons so I'm not sure how effective that would be for schools.
True, but statistics show that almost 99% of children get vaccinated for most common illnesses, despite the ability to object. If we can get anywhere near that number for Covid, we will be fine.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 14, 2021, 08:40:29 PM
True, but statistics show that almost 99% of children get vaccinated for most common illnesses, despite the ability to object. If we can get anywhere near that number for Covid, we will be fine.
I got notice of a Chicken Pox case in my 8th grader's school recently - that was a first for me since she's been in school. I wasn't too concerned about it but it brought to mind that people can opt out of the vaccines. And heck in our District there are still parents sending kids to school who they know are Covid positive (very frustrating) - can see a number of parents opting out for the vaccine for their kids.
Quote from: lostpassword on February 14, 2021, 06:55:38 PM
I haven't heard much relative to the "HOW" for that issue. I'd personally hope that some form of incentive can address part of the issue (like what Kroger is doing: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kroger-covid-vaccine-workers-100-dollars/) but suspect there may need to be some level of penalty. Can health insurance providers bump up rates not dissimilar to discounts for non-smokers? Any plans already being made for when supply overtakes demand?
Certainly your employer can require you to get the vaccination in order to remain in their employment. Anti-vaxxers are not a protected class.
And I would not be surprised if major gatherings (such as concerts and sports events) required proof of vaccination to get it.
Half dose for Moderna looks to be effective as current full dose.
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1361093865554411521?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1361093865554411521?s=21)
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2021, 08:11:43 PM
This has been the case with everyone I know who has gotten the first shot - in three different states/health systems. They walked out after their first shot with an appointment for their second shot.
I got an email to sign up for my 2nd dose 18 days after my initial dose.
Leaving my 90 day window. First vaccine tomorrow.
Got my second Pfizer dose today at Alliant Energy Center in Madison. Three weeks ago I waited for about an hour before driving into the building where they give the shot. Today I drove right in with no wait. The woman that gave me the shot said it was definitely related to the number of doses available this week. Hopefully that turns around quickly.
Quote from: larrym on February 16, 2021, 04:06:01 PM
Got my second Pfizer dose today at Alliant Energy Center in Madison. Three weeks ago I waited for about an hour before driving into the building where they give the shot. Today I drove right in with no wait. The woman that gave me the shot said it was definitely related to the number of doses available this week. Hopefully that turns around quickly.
3 weeks ago there was a delay in deliver of vaccines. They had to pull from the hospitals for doses. I know this because I got an email and I got my first dose that day. Waited about an hour at noon.
Today I was in an out in about 45 minutes.
The weather is causing shipping delays from both UPS (Louisville) and FedEx (Memphis).
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2021, 09:36:15 PM
Certainly your employer can require you to get the vaccination in order to remain in their employment. Anti-vaxxers are not a protected class.
And I would not be surprised if major gatherings (such as concerts and sports events) required proof of vaccination to get it.
this is a real slippery slope chick. so where do we draw the line? what if someone has a nasty cough? what if they look a little pale? and i mean for anyone trying to enter an event, a flight.
then there's the school issue- i recall many times, hearing from a parent..."there must be a little something going around" there were "x" number of kids missing from school today. what is the next "illness" du jour? i am not by any means trying to downplay covid, but honestly, science is not being followed anymore. how bout we blow the doors off sleepy's goals for the first 100 days and get 100% of the schools open for 2 days a week ?-(...cue in alice cooper
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 16, 2021, 10:16:17 PM
this is a real slippery slope chick. so where do we draw the line? what if someone has a nasty cough? what if they look a little pale? and i mean for anyone trying to enter an event, a flight.
That's the whole point of requiring proof of vaccination; if someone can show they were vaccinated, it's reasonable to assume the nasty cough is something other than Covid. Simple.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 16, 2021, 10:22:44 PM
That's the whole point of requiring proof of vaccination; if someone can show they were vaccinated, it's reasonable to assume the nasty cough is something other than Covid. Simple.
yes, BUT employers providing an "incentive' is the big question. the ADA is asking the EEOC for a quick clarification. also, proof of vaccination is also somewhat Orwellian. as i said, this could get slippery. don't remember people having to prove if they were HIV positive/negative back in the day. because it didn't happen. why not? as a healthcare provider, our lives were at risk. we were a blood spatter away from getting very very ill. we have run into this issue with fluoride for chriminey's sake. personally, i could care less if someone wants fluoride or not. i think it decreases decay, but wtf do i know. that doesn't mean i'm going to be putting it into everyone's drinking water-gasp
https://www.ada.org/en/publications/ada-news/2021-archive/february/coalition-asks-equal-employment-opportunity-commission-to-issue-guidance-on-covid-19-vaccination
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 16, 2021, 10:36:20 PM
yes, BUT employers providing an "incentive' is the big question. the ADA is asking the EEOC for a quick clarification. also, proof of vaccination is also somewhat Orwellian. as i said, this could get slippery. don't remember people having to prove if they were HIV positive/negative back in the day. because it didn't happen. why not? as a healthcare provider, our lives were at risk. we were a blood spatter away from getting very very ill. we have run into this issue with fluoride for chriminey's sake. personally, i could care less if someone wants fluoride or not. i think it decreases decay, but wtf do i know. that doesn't mean i'm going to be putting it into everyone's drinking water-gasp
https://www.ada.org/en/publications/ada-news/2021-archive/february/coalition-asks-equal-employment-opportunity-commission-to-issue-guidance-on-covid-19-vaccination
Employers could *strongly suggest* their employees rethink skipping out on the vaccine. Kinda like employers *stronly suggest* their female employees not buzz their hair.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 16, 2021, 10:36:20 PM
yes, BUT employers providing an "incentive' is the big question. the ADA is asking the EEOC for a quick clarification. also, proof of vaccination is also somewhat Orwellian. as i said, this could get slippery. don't remember people having to prove if they were HIV positive/negative back in the day. because it didn't happen. why not? as a healthcare provider, our lives were at risk. we were a blood spatter away from getting very very ill. we have run into this issue with fluoride for chriminey's sake. personally, i could care less if someone wants fluoride or not. i think it decreases decay, but wtf do i know. that doesn't mean i'm going to be putting it into everyone's drinking water-gasp
https://www.ada.org/en/publications/ada-news/2021-archive/february/coalition-asks-equal-employment-opportunity-commission-to-issue-guidance-on-covid-19-vaccination
The post of chick's that you replied to didn't talk about employer incentives. It talked about employers requiring vaccination as a condition of employment. Those are two totally different things, and the latter happens all the time.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 16, 2021, 10:36:20 PM
yes, BUT employers providing an "incentive' is the big question. the ADA is asking the EEOC for a quick clarification. also, proof of vaccination is also somewhat Orwellian. as i said, this could get slippery. don't remember people having to prove if they were HIV positive/negative back in the day. because it didn't happen. why not? as a healthcare provider, our lives were at risk. we were a blood spatter away from getting very very ill. we have run into this issue with fluoride for chriminey's sake. personally, i could care less if someone wants fluoride or not. i think it decreases decay, but wtf do i know. that doesn't mean i'm going to be putting it into everyone's drinking water-gasp
https://www.ada.org/en/publications/ada-news/2021-archive/february/coalition-asks-equal-employment-opportunity-commission-to-issue-guidance-on-covid-19-vaccination
One other thought: this entire thread is about Covid vaccines. Whether people will get them, whether employers can require them, and whether schools can require them. Bringing HIV into the discussion is a complete non sequitur, as there still is no HIV vaccine.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 16, 2021, 10:47:22 PM
One other thought: this entire thread is about Covid vaccines. Whether people will get them, whether employers can require them, and whether schools can require them. Bringing HIV into the discussion is a complete non sequitur, as there still is no HIV vaccine.
Not only that, but there is a complete difference between a blood borne pathogen like HIV and COVID. For 99% of workers, HIV transmission in the workplace isn't an issue whatsoever.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 16, 2021, 10:36:20 PM
yes, BUT employers providing an "incentive' is the big question. the ADA is asking the EEOC for a quick clarification. also, proof of vaccination is also somewhat Orwellian.
Someone doesn't know what Orwellian means.
Getting Dose 1 tonight
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 16, 2021, 10:40:10 PM
The post of chick's that you replied to didn't talk about employer incentives. It talked about employers requiring vaccination as a condition of employment. Those are two totally different things, and the latter happens all the time.
yes, but let's be real here goooo. yes they are 2 different things, but i'm sure you've heard about getting an "offer you couldn't refuse". these things can be mutually, hint hint, inclusive
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 07:46:32 AM
Someone doesn't know what Orwellian means.
if you don't see the "orwellian" analogy here, go back and read orwell, just as you are being equally naïve or purposely vacuous about the cancel culture. for you puffy, everything goes thru your woke crap
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 17, 2021, 09:00:01 AM
if you don't see the "orwellian" analogy here, go back and read orwell, just as you are being equally naïve or purposely vacuous about the cancel culture. for you puffy, everything goes thru your woke crap
Big yikes
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 17, 2021, 08:52:53 AM
yes, but let's be real here goooo. yes they are 2 different things, but i'm sure you've heard about getting an "offer you couldn't refuse". these things can be mutually, hint hint, inclusive
You wanna be real? Employers have required pre-employment physicals and evidence of vaccination status for years. I have an annual requirement to provide documentation of a flu shot, or register a religious objection. They withhold paychecks for anyone who doesn't comply. Schools have required documentation of vaccinations for ages, again with a religious exception. And people who have been talking about Covid vaccination requirements are likewise proposing a religious exception.
You try to portray this as something new or 'Orwellian,' but the reality is it has been going on for many years.
First dose on board.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 17, 2021, 09:00:01 AM
if you don't see the "orwellian" analogy here, go back and read orwell, just as you are being equally naïve or purposely vacuous about the cancel culture. for you puffy, everything goes thru your woke crap
LOL, we are now applying "cancel culture" to a workplace requirement? Like if my employer doesn't allow me to show up to work naked, I am getting "cancelled?"
It's become such a meaningless phrase because apparently it now means that someone can do what ever the f*ck they want without consequence.
And no. You don't know what Orwellian means.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 17, 2021, 09:36:18 AM
You wanna be real? Employers have required pre-employment physicals and evidence of vaccination status for years. I have an annual requirement to provide documentation of a flu shot, or register a religious objection. They withhold paychecks for anyone who doesn't comply. Schools have required documentation of vaccinations for ages, again with a religious exception. And people who have been talking about Covid vaccination requirements are likewise proposing a religious exception.
You try to portray this as something new or 'Orwellian,' but the reality is it has been going on for many years.
WiThOlDiNg PaY? YoU'rE gEttInG "CANCELLED!!!"
Are vaccine requirements or not allowing shaved heads more orwellian?
Quote from: tower912 on February 17, 2021, 09:51:52 AM
First dose on board.
Great to hear, tower.
I know it's been a tough road with your bout with Covid and lingering smell issues. Glad to hear you're getting your immunity boosted with the vaccine.
Quote from: tower912 on February 17, 2021, 09:51:52 AM
First dose on board.
Glad to see people getting shot. Wish it was that easy here. But at least I am now on the list. My 1st shot won't be until March 11.
I said many times I was willing to wait a lot longer for the vaccine, but city hall kind of forced my hand.
No longer considered workman's comp after March 31 without the vaccine.
Not allowed to attend training out of town without the vaccine.
I wasn't particularly worried about reinfection, but the higher ups are.
So, I took a dose away from somebody else in the interest of getting 'the man' off my back.
If things were to go just "as expected," when will we be (responsibly) able to fill a sports arena without wearing masks? Even if it means showing your proof of vaccination for entry.
IMO, autumn.
Baseball and other outdoor sports will be at 50% capacity by late summer/early fall. Indoor sports will take longer, IMO.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on February 17, 2021, 01:27:30 PM
Baseball and other outdoor sports will be at 50% capacity by late summer/early fall. Indoor sports will take longer, IMO.
I don't anticipate full arenas being allowed for at least two years. Unmasked, maybe never.
I just get the vibe from public health officials that they want some measures in place in perpetuity, even if the vaccination campaign is effective.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on February 17, 2021, 01:27:30 PM
Baseball and other outdoor sports will be at 50% capacity by late summer/early fall. Indoor sports will take longer, IMO.
Yup, agree. Assuming things progress they way they have been.
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 17, 2021, 01:46:55 PM
I don't anticipate full arenas being allowed for at least two years. Unmasked, maybe never.
I just get the vibe from public health officials that they want some measures in place in perpetuity, even if the vaccination campaign is effective.
Disagree, wholeheartedly. I've seen nothing to suggest this.
Mommy, the counties are being mean to me! DeathSantis trying to live up to his nickname!
Ron DeSantis suggests he might divert vaccines to parts of Florida that aren't criticizing him
https://www.rawstory.com/ron-desantis/
On Wednesday, at a press conference in Lakewood Ranch, Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) appeared to suggest that if county officials want to criticize how he's distributing vaccines, he's happy to divert vaccines from counties critical of him to counties that aren't.
Quote from: pbiflyer on February 17, 2021, 02:23:02 PM
Mommy, the counties are being mean to me! DeathSantis trying to live up to his nickname!
Ron DeSantis suggests he might divert vaccines to parts of Florida that aren't criticizing him
https://www.rawstory.com/ron-desantis/
On Wednesday, at a press conference in Lakewood Ranch, Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) appeared to suggest that if county officials want to criticize how he's distributing vaccines, he's happy to divert vaccines from counties critical of him to counties that aren't.
Kind of like when Trump was telling people he would send ventilators to states that were kind to him.
Disagree, wholeheartedly. I've seen nothing to suggest this.
[/quote]
Maybe in Dane county
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 17, 2021, 02:12:16 PM
Disagree, wholeheartedly. I've seen nothing to suggest this.
I hope you're right. But when I hear Fauci and co. moving the goalposts back on herd immunity, Biden saying we'll need masks into 2022, it doesn't make me optimistic.
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 17, 2021, 02:36:15 PM
I hope you're right. But when I hear Fauci and co. moving the goalposts back on herd immunity, Biden saying we'll need masks into 2022, it doesn't make me optimistic.
I could see masks into 22 but that's different than no travel, no bars, no restaurants, no sports etc.
1st dose done. Not bad at all.
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 17, 2021, 01:46:55 PM
I don't anticipate full arenas being allowed for at least two years. Unmasked, maybe never.
I just get the vibe from public health officials that they want some measures in place in perpetuity, even if the vaccination campaign is effective.
Ridiculous. I'd be shocked if we aren't largely back to a normal basketball season by the time MU tips off in November.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 08:23:57 PM
Ridiculous. I'd be shocked if we aren't largely back to a normal basketball season by the time MU tips off in November.
I think it's 50/50 on whether or not we'll be back at FF anytime soon...as all of these different strands emerge if the current vaccines are only partially effective against those I don't see how anyone can justify getting back to gatherings involving multiple households much less 18,000 fans packed into an arena. Why risk it just to watch a game, concert, etc?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on February 17, 2021, 08:35:53 PM
I think it's 50/50 on whether or not we'll be back at FF anytime soon...as all of these different strands emerge if the current vaccines are only partially effective against those I don't see how anyone can justify getting back to gatherings involving multiple households much less 18,000 fans packed into an arena. Why risk it just to watch a game, concert, etc?
Because the illness won't be as severe and the $$$ pressure will be too great.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 08:36:59 PM
Because the illness won't be as severe and the $$$ pressure will be too great.
Aren't all these new strands more contagious/more deadly?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on February 17, 2021, 08:38:11 PM
Aren't all these new strands more contagious/more deadly?
Contagious, yes.
Deadly, no.
Severe illness stopped by vaccine, yes.
edit: well, maybe.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pfizer-says-south-african-variant-222209427.html
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 18, 2021, 06:18:25 AM
Contagious, yes.
Deadly, no.
Severe illness stopped by vaccine, yes.
edit: well, maybe.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pfizer-says-south-african-variant-222209427.html
But people's appetite for doing this into and after the summer will be done. As with the flu, speeding, gun ownership, etc., there will be a level of illness and death that will be considered a reasonable trade off for getting life to normal.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 18, 2021, 07:35:04 AM
But people's appetite for doing this into and after the summer will be done. As with the flu, speeding, gun ownership, etc., there will be a level of illness and death that will be considered a reasonable trade off for getting life to normal.
I think the prevention of severe illness aspect isn't being talked about enough. I think I saw a tweet that with the vaccines, we'd expect far less deaths per year than the flu. If I'm told the extent of risk of Covid is being sick a few days, then I'm very comfortable going into the world. It seems a lot of people are focused on the fact that it's not 100% preventing disease.
My only question would be, does that include preventing the long term impacts (heart issues, respiratory issues, etc.)?
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 18, 2021, 08:24:52 AM
I think the prevention of severe illness aspect isn't being talked about enough. I think I saw a tweet that with the vaccines, we'd expect far less deaths per year than the flu. If I'm told the extent of risk of Covid is being sick a few days, then I'm very comfortable going into the world. It seems a lot of people are focused on the fact that it's not 100% preventing disease.
My only question would be, does that include preventing the long term impacts (heart issues, respiratory issues, etc.)?
YES on the bolded. EXACTLY.
There was the head of the local health system on this morning talking about this exact thing. How people are not getting the vaccine because it isn't 100% effective. But it doesn't need to be! And I don't think these messages are getting out enough.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 18, 2021, 06:18:25 AM
Contagious, yes.
Deadly, no.
Severe illness stopped by vaccine, yes.
edit: well, maybe.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pfizer-says-south-african-variant-222209427.html
They should get booster shots ready. Have a very high level of surveillance on new strains. When one pops up that has high levels of immunity to the vaccine, quickly offer boosters to the entire surrounding communities to hopefully stop the spread of resistant variants.
Might be able to get ahead of the variants with a proactive approach.
Quote from: forgetful on February 18, 2021, 10:10:07 AM
They should get booster shots ready. Have a very high level of surveillance on new strains. When one pops up that has high levels of immunity to the vaccine, quickly offer boosters to the entire surrounding communities to hopefully stop the spread of resistant variants.
Might be able to get ahead of the variants with a proactive approach.
That's a good proactive plan. One of the benefits of the mRNA platform is that we should be able to quickly develop a vaccine to combat evolving variants. Hopefully by then we'll have enough experience with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines that FDA will let it through without a full regulatory review.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 17, 2021, 08:23:57 PM
Ridiculous. I'd be shocked if we aren't largely back to a normal basketball season by the time MU tips off in November.
Unless there is a new vaccine-resistant strain this spring/summer, I completely agree. I will be getting the shots in march and am currently planning 2 different vacations. If still necessary, I will follow protocols with masks, but I will no longer have a problem with being in crowds.
By Fall, we should be closing in on normal. Those who refuse the virus will be left behind (available to be sick or dead). By the fall, society in general will have lost all patience for those refuseniks.
Quote from: Jockey on February 18, 2021, 01:10:34 PM
Unless there is a new vaccine-resistant strain this spring/summer, I completely agree. I will be getting the shots in march and am currently planning 2 different vacations. If still necessary, I will follow protocols with masks, but I will no longer have a problem with being in crowds.
By Fall, we should be closing in on normal. Those who refuse the virus will be left behind (available to be sick or dead). By the fall, society in general will have lost all patience for those refuseniks.
I'm going to refuse the virus. Why should that leave me behind?
Quote from: BrewCity83 on February 18, 2021, 04:23:09 PM
I'm going to refuse the virus. Why should that leave me behind?
Yes I deserve your ridicule. Fingers and brain are not always in sync.
I'm curious as to what point in the vaccination progress cycle we will see travel shaming/outrage start to wane. Cause it's still hot and heavy, even towards people who are already vaccinated.
Got Moderna #1 this afternoon, pleasant experience. Will go again.
Probably because I still have the antibodies, shot 1 is hitting me like the anecdotes say shot 2 hits you.
Pfizer.
Pfizer
I'm really tired today and arm feels like a couple flu shots. Was really impressed with how quick the shot was. Barely even registered it was in and then she said she was done
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 18, 2021, 09:27:14 PM
Pfizer
I'm really tired today and arm feels like a couple flu shots. Was really impressed with how quick the shot was. Barely even registered it was in and then she said she was done
Irish curse, aina?
Never really had any side effects from either shot. Maybe a really weak headache.
I've had 30+ flu shots over the years. Sometimes the vaccinator is great, the needle goes in, bam, out, in half a second .. other times not so much, the slow deliberate vaccinator is the worst.
One time a lady inserted the needle and then said "OOPS!" and left it there for a moment as she collected herself. The syringe was empty, she'd forgotten to fill it. Oops, indeed.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 19, 2021, 07:56:36 AM
I've had 30+ flu shots over the years. Sometimes the vaccinator is great, the needle goes in, bam, out, in half a second .. other times not so much, the slow deliberate vaccinator is the worst.
One time a lady inserted the needle and then said "OOPS!" and left it there for a moment as she collected herself. The syringe was empty, she'd forgotten to fill it. Oops, indeed.
I used to give blood every 8 weeks. I'm a fairly thin guy so once they tie that band around your arm and have you squeeze like a stress ball a couple times it's pretty easy to find a vein to poke the needle into on me. It always went quick, to the point sometimes they would comment on how quickly the bag was filling up. Usually like 10 minutes and it was done, no bruising. One time they asked me if I was okay with a nurse in training or something getting the bloodwork going. I don't really care, so I said no problem. She gets the band around my arm, has me squeeze the stress ball, the vein is sticking out clear as day to see, yet she continues to poke around other areas. Ultimately she decides the vein sticking way out is the way to go. She poked around a couple times with the needle, finally gets the needle in, then is like examining it and asks if they ever have trouble with getting blood to flow or whatever. I told her no, usually it's very quick. She walks away, leaving the needle totally uncovered, and comes back with one of the full time nurses. Eventually they pull the needle out and poke it back in and finish it up. I had a bruise damn near from my shoulder to my wrist when I woke up the next day.
Quote from: BLM on February 19, 2021, 08:16:02 AM
I used to give blood every 8 weeks. I'm a fairly thin guy so once they tie that band around your arm and have you squeeze like a stress ball a couple times it's pretty easy to find a vein to poke the needle into on me. It always went quick, to the point sometimes they would comment on how quickly the bag was filling up. Usually like 10 minutes and it was done, no bruising. One time they asked me if I was okay with a nurse in training or something getting the bloodwork going. I don't really care, so I said no problem. She gets the band around my arm, has me squeeze the stress ball, the vein is sticking out clear as day to see, yet she continues to poke around other areas. Ultimately she decides the vein sticking way out is the way to go. She poked around a couple times with the needle, finally gets the needle in, then is like examining it and asks if they ever have trouble with getting blood to flow or whatever. I told her no, usually it's very quick. She walks away, leaving the needle totally uncovered, and comes back with one of the full time nurses. Eventually they pull the needle out and poke it back in and finish it up. I had a bruise damn near from my shoulder to my wrist when I woke up the next day.
No one was observing the trainee stick a needle in your arm????????????????
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 19, 2021, 08:19:51 AM
No one was observing the trainee stick a needle in your arm????????????????
I think they actually were. This was over a decade ago now, so I can't remember exactly but I do remember having like 3 nurses around me, 2 observing the trainee. But I also just remember having the needle sticking in my arm completely uncovered. I'm normally fine with needles, but when you can see it poking your skin up it was kind of weird.
Quote from: BLM on February 19, 2021, 08:16:02 AM
I used to give blood every 8 weeks. I'm a fairly thin guy so once they tie that band around your arm and have you squeeze like a stress ball a couple times it's pretty easy to find a vein to poke the needle into on me. It always went quick, to the point sometimes they would comment on how quickly the bag was filling up. Usually like 10 minutes and it was done, no bruising. One time they asked me if I was okay with a nurse in training or something getting the bloodwork going. I don't really care, so I said no problem. She gets the band around my arm, has me squeeze the stress ball, the vein is sticking out clear as day to see, yet she continues to poke around other areas. Ultimately she decides the vein sticking way out is the way to go. She poked around a couple times with the needle, finally gets the needle in, then is like examining it and asks if they ever have trouble with getting blood to flow or whatever. I told her no, usually it's very quick. She walks away, leaving the needle totally uncovered, and comes back with one of the full time nurses. Eventually they pull the needle out and poke it back in and finish it up. I had a bruise damn near from my shoulder to my wrist when I woke up the next day.
Similar experience here.
All my life, I have been considered an easy draw or IV stick, with a roadmap of well-defined veins on each arm. Then about a year ago a nurse was starting an IV for a minor procedure. After poking around a bit she asks "has anyone ever told you that you have tough veins?" Ummmmm, no. She calls in their 'best' IV starter, who has it flowing in 30 seconds. ?-(
Last time I gave blood, I had no problem with the needle prick, but the nurse went on and on about how she was going to a wedding that evening with a couple of colleagues and was planning on calling in sick the next day. "The last time I went out with these girls, I was calling my son to come pick me up from a Park and Ride at 1:00 AM."
I am a tough blood draw. Vasovagal reaction due to needle phobia. Weird, because I can be carrying on a normal conversation but my veins just collapse. A few years back, for the blood draw for my annual work physical, the young lady sent to draw blood ended up in tears after sticking me 5 times. Had to take 10 minutes to collect herself before she could try anybody else. They shipped me off to the clinic where I ran my hands under scalding water for 5 minutes before they drew blood from the back of my hand.
A total of 7 tries that day. I looked like a junkie.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 19, 2021, 08:41:04 AM
Last time I gave blood, I had no problem with the needle prick, but the nurse went on and on about how she was going to a wedding that evening with a couple of colleagues and was planning on calling in sick the next day. "The last time I went out with these girls, I was calling my son to come pick me up from a Park and Ride at 1:00 AM."
I donated blood twice this year. The first time, I'm not sure what happened but the needle prick was incredibly painful. It throbbed for a minute or so. I've never had an issue with it before so I have no idea what happened.
The second time everything went perfectly. No pain. Except this was in July and the administrator was telling me how she never wore a mask outside of work and had just returned from a 50+ person 4th of July party a few days prior. She told me this after she had taken all my vitals and had been touching me for the past five minutes. It was a bit unsettling.
I gave semen twice this month. First time the nurse had difficulty, but the 2nd was smooth
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 19, 2021, 01:35:22 PM
I gave semen twice this month. First time the nurse had difficulty, but the 2nd was smooth
RIP
This was an interesting vaccine finding
https://twitter.com/apoorva_nyc/status/1362777230972231680?s=21 (https://twitter.com/apoorva_nyc/status/1362777230972231680?s=21)
I am invincible!
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 19, 2021, 03:50:24 PM
This was an interesting vaccine finding
https://twitter.com/apoorva_nyc/status/1362777230972231680?s=21 (https://twitter.com/apoorva_nyc/status/1362777230972231680?s=21)
Would that work in reverse? If you got both shots, but then contracted covid, would your body respond the same way? Or is the fact that you were unlucky enough to get covid after a vaccine enough to counteract all the "good" (5% ers)
A Michigan business is offering an interesting incentive for getting a COVID vaccine.
https://www.theoaklandpress.com/business/marijuana-store-continues-promotion-of-pot-for-shots-through-march-31/article_b3522228-72f0-11eb-be1a-cb747f862a8e.html
A marijuana store in Oakland County is extending its "Pot for Shots" program through March 31, giving a free pre-roll to people who can provide proof of having a COVID-19 vaccination.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 19, 2021, 08:07:45 PM
A marijuana store in Oakland County is extending its "Pot for Shots" program through March 31, giving a free pre-roll to people who can provide proof of having a COVID-19 vaccination.
Hah. Given that phase 1 is generally medical and elderly, I hope the old folks are toking up! Though the medical workers deserve to after the past year.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 19, 2021, 10:20:50 PM
Hah. Given that phase 1 is generally medical and elderly, I hope the old folks are toking up! Though the medical workers deserve to after the past year.
I think most people would be surprised at how many elderly take mj in some form..
Quote from: Jockey on February 21, 2021, 12:38:24 PM
I think most people would be surprised at how many elderly take mj in some form..
Grandma always baked the most
wonderful brownies.
Seriously though, I think you're right. And it's a heck of a lot less harmful than cigarettes or even alcohol.
Quote from: Jockey on February 21, 2021, 12:38:24 PM
I think most people would be surprised at how many elderly take mj in some form..
The ingestibles are quite popular. Because the boomers grew up with it, why should they fear it in gummie form?
Quote from: tower912 on February 21, 2021, 02:02:40 PM
The ingestibles are quite popular. Because the boomers grew up with it, why should they fear it in gummie form?
My grandma is in her 80s, on oxygen, so she obviously can't smoke, but she's an avid user of CBD products for some of her ailments. One of her nephews brought her a THC gummy not long ago (Grandma the criminal deviant!!) and she loved the effects. If WI legalizes, she will absolutely use.
Quote from: tower912 on February 18, 2021, 08:49:53 PM
Probably because I still have the antibodies, shot 1 is hitting me like the anecdotes say shot 2 hits you.
Pfizer.
Chick Jr got knocked on her butt from Pfizer shot #1 as well, and that was my thought - that her bout of Covid acted like her first shot in terms of antibody reaction.
Preliminary data says people in the same boat as Chick jr and I don't need the second shot. I strongly suspect our employers won't see it that way.
Quote from: tower912 on February 22, 2021, 05:05:20 AM
Preliminary data says people in the same boat as Chick jr and I don't need the second shot. I strongly suspect our employees won't see it that way.
Makes a lot of sense from an immunologic standpoint. Your initial infection likely triggered the same type of immune response that others generate from the first shot.
My 91 year old Auntie now has two different location options to get the vaccine. Previously, up until the end of last week, she had no options. Progress. Looks as though it will be Moderna for her next week.
Quote from: shoothoops on February 22, 2021, 01:55:19 PM
My 91 year old Auntie now has two different location options to get the vaccine.
The arm or the ass?
Quote from: BrewCity83 on February 22, 2021, 03:56:20 PM
The arm or the ass?
Four options, then.
Left or right arm. Left or right cheek.
Cool video from NPR showing how herd immunity can prevent little outbreaks from getting too big.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLm8T-UMAeS/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Connecticut released it's full vaccination schedule yesterday.
Schedule for CT:
March 1: Expands to the age group 55 to 64 and all teachers.
March 22: Expands to age group 45 to 54
April 12: Expands to age group 35 to 44
May 3: Expands to age group 16 to 34
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on February 23, 2021, 08:41:29 AM
Connecticut released it's full vaccination schedule yesterday.
Schedule for CT:
March 1: Expands to the age group 55 to 64 and all teachers.
March 22: Expands to age group 45 to 54
April 12: Expands to age group 35 to 44
May 3: Expands to age group 16 to 34
That is amazing! If they actually get the supply and can vaccinate everyone in each age group that wants it on that schedule, it will be a remarkable success. My fear would be if they open to younger groups before all willing members of the older groups have been vaccinated...in which case it could become a free for all. Hope they have a plan to maintain the relative priorities.
They should provide better guidance like that in more states. Even if they don't give exact dates, it would be nice to confirm whether or not they are going to incrementally prioritize by age like in CT, or just open it up after the 65+ crowd is done. I have tried to find the answer here in MN, and nobody can tell me.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 23, 2021, 09:22:12 AM
That is amazing! If they actually get the supply and can vaccinate everyone in each age group that wants it on that schedule, it will be a remarkable success. My fear would be if they open to younger groups before all willing members of the older groups have been vaccinated...in which case it could become a free for all. Hope they have a plan to maintain the relative priorities.
They should provide better guidance like that in more states. Even if they don't give exact dates, it would be nice to confirm whether or not they are going to incrementally prioritize by age like in CT, or just open it up after the 65+ crowd is done. I have tried to find the answer here in MN, and nobody can tell me.
One item that was also communicated as part of this - 39% of 65-74 age group has received their first shot and 75+ is at 70%. The 75+ seems to have hit a ceiling as it was 68% as of last wed. The 65-74 group added about 10 points since last Wed. So they are rolling...
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on February 23, 2021, 08:41:29 AM
Connecticut released it's full vaccination schedule yesterday.
Schedule for CT:
March 1: Expands to the age group 55 to 64 and all teachers.
March 22: Expands to age group 45 to 54
April 12: Expands to age group 35 to 44
May 3: Expands to age group 16 to 34
Born and raised in Milford. Can I show up on March 1 and get the vaccine?
Quote from: MU82 on February 23, 2021, 11:34:48 AM
Born and raised in Milford. Can I show up on March 1 and get the vaccine?
I've been to Hartford and New Haven. Maybe I'll head on over....
Quote from: MU82 on February 23, 2021, 11:34:48 AM
Born and raised in Milford. Can I show up on March 1 and get the vaccine?
It'll give you a chance to see the Silver Sands & Walnut Beach Boardwalk and then visit the Walnut Beach Creamery (owned by Dan Patrick's wife) for some ice cream.
If the group of guys I play basketball with all get vaccinated, I assume we should be okay to play basketball maskless even if it is still best practice to be masked up for public gatherings? I don't think this will be happening for a number of months still, but I can't wait to start playing basketball again.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on February 23, 2021, 01:19:17 PM
It'll give you a chance to see the Silver Sands & Walnut Beach Boardwalk and then visit the Walnut Beach Creamery (owned by Dan Patrick's wife) for some ice cream.
None of those existed when I lived there. I need to get back!
Quote from: BLM on February 23, 2021, 02:55:52 PM
If the group of guys I play basketball with all get vaccinated, I assume we should be okay to play basketball maskless even if it is still best practice to be masked up for public gatherings? I don't think this will be happening for a number of months still, but I can't wait to start playing basketball again.
Probably not a huge risk if you've all been vaccinated.
If you all mask up in public, the real (potential) risk is that one of you is a carrier and passes the virus to other players...who then take it home to their families or other people with whom they interact maskless. So say your wife hasn't gotten the vaccine yet, you might pass it on to her.
But if all of you (and your respective family members) regularly mask up in public, the spread would be limited.
Quote from: BLM on February 23, 2021, 02:55:52 PM
If the group of guys I play basketball with all get vaccinated, I assume we should be okay to play basketball maskless even if it is still best practice to be masked up for public gatherings? I don't think this will be happening for a number of months still, but I can't wait to start playing basketball again.
That's my plan as well, and you should be fine.
Quote from: BLM on February 23, 2021, 02:55:52 PM
If the group of guys I play basketball with all get vaccinated, I assume we should be okay to play basketball maskless even if it is still best practice to be masked up for public gatherings? I don't think this will be happening for a number of months still, but I can't wait to start playing basketball again.
Maybea ax Hards 'cuz he's da a final word on all thins Covid, aina?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 23, 2021, 03:14:55 PM
Probably not a huge risk if you've all been vaccinated.
If you all mask up in public, the real (potential) risk is that one of you is a carrier and passes the virus to other players...who then take it home to their families or other people with whom they interact maskless. So say your wife hasn't gotten the vaccine yet, you might pass it on to her.
But if all of you (and your respective family members) regularly mask up in public, the spread would be limited.
Excellent, thank you. I'm guessing most of the guys I play with will be the least group of people to be vaccinated, so the people we will be interacting with outside of pickup basketball will most likely be vaccinated at least right around the same time we will be if they choose to.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/science/johnson-johnson-vaccine-update.html?smid=tw-nythealth&smtyp=cur
"The one-shot coronavirus vaccine made by Johnson & Johnson provides strong protection against severe disease and death from Covid-19, and may reduce the spread of the virus by vaccinated people, according to new analyses posted online by the Food and Drug Administration on Wednesday.
The vaccine had a 72 percent overall efficacy rate in the United States and 64 percent in South Africa, where a highly contagious variant emerged in the fall and is now driving most cases. The efficacy in South Africa was seven points higher than earlier data released by the company.
The vaccine also showed 86 percent efficacy against severe forms of Covid-19 in the United States, and 82 percent against severe disease in South Africa. That means that a vaccinated person has a far lower risk of being hospitalized or dying from Covid-19.
The analyses confirmed that Americans are likely to benefit soon from a third effective coronavirus vaccine developed in under a year, as demand for inoculations greatly outstrips supply. The F.D.A. could authorize the vaccine as early as Saturday, depending on a vote of its vaccine advisory panel on Friday after it discusses the newly released documents."
Well that's a big game changer. Start rolling that out, ideally to non at risk individuals, and continue Pfizer and moderna to at risk.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 24, 2021, 08:10:06 AM
Well that's a big game changer. Start rolling that out, ideally to non at risk individuals, and continue Pfizer and moderna to at risk.
Exactly what I was thinking. I would take the J&J shot tomorrow and be done with it if I could.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 24, 2021, 08:10:06 AM
Well that's a big game changer. Start rolling that out, ideally to non at risk individuals, and continue Pfizer and moderna to at risk.
J&J is way behind on production. Pfizer and Moderna will deliver well over 200M doses before J&J can deliver their first 20M.
Based on the current production projections, Pfizer and Moderna will deliver enough doses by the end of summer to vaccinate every American that wants a vaccine.
I'd start prioritizing J&J for overseas use where mutations are brewing and vaccine distribution is complicated.
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2021, 08:27:39 AM
J&J is way behind on production. Pfizer and Moderna will deliver well over 200M doses before J&J can deliver their first 20M.
Based on the current production projections, Pfizer and Moderna will deliver enough doses by the end of summer to vaccinate every American that wants a vaccine.
I'd start prioritizing J&J for overseas use where mutations are brewing and vaccine distribution is complicated.
I thought J&J had already ramped up production with the expectation of getting cleared? Maybe I just mistook the company.
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2021, 08:27:39 AM
J&J is way behind on production. Pfizer and Moderna will deliver well over 200M doses before J&J can deliver their first 20M.
Based on the current production projections, Pfizer and Moderna will deliver enough doses by the end of summer to vaccinate every American that wants a vaccine.
I'd start prioritizing J&J for overseas use where mutations are brewing and vaccine distribution is complicated.
Why do you hate capitalism? Free markets should determine how it gets distributed, not invasive nanny governments! (yes, this was sarcasm)
But this is only good news for some
https://www.yahoo.com/news/new-yahoo-news-you-gov-poll-covid-19-vaccine-acceptance-is-rising-except-among-republicans-003242019.html
Quote from: Galway Eagle on February 24, 2021, 08:36:57 AM
I thought J&J had already ramped up production with the expectation of getting cleared? Maybe I just mistook the company.
J&J was trying to ramp up production, but it hasn't gone as planned.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/13/johnson-johnson-vaccine-production-458941
Johnson & Johnson has fallen behind on production of its Covid-19 vaccine, a delay that could put it as much as two months behind schedule, a person briefed on the matter told POLITICO.
The company had originally pledged to deliver 12 million doses by the end of February, with plans to reach 100 million over the next four months.
But Johnson & Johnson has since warned officials that it could take until the end of April to catch up to its original projections, the person briefed on the matter said.-------------
Some have suggested we use the J&J vaccine for lower risk populations. I suspect that will happen by default because it will take a while to get it made and distributed.
Quote from: tower912 on February 24, 2021, 09:20:14 AM
But this is only good news for some
https://www.yahoo.com/news/new-yahoo-news-you-gov-poll-covid-19-vaccine-acceptance-is-rising-except-among-republicans-003242019.html
Selfishly, this makes me hope I'll get my vaccine sooner. However, this isn't a great trend.
Unless there are severe restrictions for those that aren't vaccinated, I'm not sure what will convince them. Many are probably those that think it is the flu and the odds of severe illness are low. They probably are already gathering in groups without masks, going to bars, etc.
The big one I think will be if a vaccine is required to work or travel. But I don't know if a loophole for people saying they are concerned for their health by taking it or citing religious beliefs would negate that. Sort of like the places that say if you aren't wearing a mask, we will assume you have a health issue.
Quote from: tower912 on February 24, 2021, 09:20:14 AM
But this is only good news for some
https://www.yahoo.com/news/new-yahoo-news-you-gov-poll-covid-19-vaccine-acceptance-is-rising-except-among-republicans-003242019.html
This might help explain the post yesterday by Frenns regarding the rollout in CT:
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 23, 2021, 09:38:54 AM
One item that was also communicated as part of this - 39% of 65-74 age group has received their first shot and 75+ is at 70%. The 75+ seems to have hit a ceiling as it was 68% as of last wed. The 65-74 group added about 10 points since last Wed. So they are rolling...
If there is an apparent plateau at about 70% of the 75+ age group (a group that is high risk by definition), many of us will probably get our vaccines sooner than expected...but it could take longer than expected to reach herd immunity.
Quote from: tower912 on February 24, 2021, 09:20:14 AM
But this is only good news for some
https://www.yahoo.com/news/new-yahoo-news-you-gov-poll-covid-19-vaccine-acceptance-is-rising-except-among-republicans-003242019.html
We'll miss them dearly.
Looks like JNJ vaccine is gonna start being distributed in the U.S. within days after being greenlit by FDA advisers today.
Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
Looks like JNJ vaccine is gonna start being distributed in the U.S. within days after being greenlit by FDA advisers today.
The beginning of the end 🙏🙏
Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
Looks like JNJ vaccine is gonna start being distributed in the U.S. within days after being greenlit by FDA advisers today.
Excellent news.
Three safe and effective vaccines against a novel virus, all in less than a year. Unprecedented process.
A disability group is suing the state of Connecticut because they didn't include a carve out for people with disabilities in one of the earlier phases. Article in yesterday's paper explained how they came to the strictly age based plan except for the teacher carve out.
Based on the first few weeks and experience witnessed from other states, Connecticut noticed the simpler the plan the faster and more people you can vaccinate.
If you added carve outs it put way too many people in a phase plus it was difficult to verify some of the disabilities that would just slow things down.
It also added to many questions. If we vaccinate transit workers does that include Uber and Lyft?
It we vaccinate USPS employees, shouldn't we vaccinate FedEx and UPS workers?
Does grocery store workers mean convenience store workers, etc?
Get a plan, work the plan. All of this becomes moot as production ramps up.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on February 27, 2021, 06:57:14 AM
A disability group is suing the state of Connecticut because they didn't include a carve out for people with disabilities in one of the earlier phases. Article in yesterday's paper explained how they came to the strictly age based plan except for the teacher carve out.
Based on the first few weeks and experience witnessed from other states, Connecticut noticed the simpler the plan the faster and more people you can vaccinate.
If you added carve outs it put way too many people in a phase plus it was difficult to verify some of the disabilities that would just slow things down.
It also added to many questions. If we vaccinate transit workers does that include Uber and Lyft?
It we vaccinate USPS employees, shouldn't we vaccinate FedEx and UPS workers?
Does grocery store workers mean convenience store workers, etc?
It was a smart move to simplify. There would have been exclusion complaints and maybe lawsuits no matter where the line was drawn. As long as no hiccups in supply, this will be over before anything can be fully litigated.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 27, 2021, 09:43:30 AM
It was a smart move to simplify. There would have been exclusion complaints and maybe lawsuits no matter where the line was drawn. As long as no hiccups in supply, this will be over before anything can be fully litigated.
Agree. Simplicity is good. I wish more states were following CT's lead.
And the alternative they're using in most states - complicated schemes based on jobs, types of living arrangements, medical conditions, etc. - opens a Pandora's box of complicated questions, and rife with opportunities to game the system. What if someone comes in claiming a medical condition, but refuses to provide evidence of it? What if someone knows the manager of a grocery store and gets 'hired' just to get an earlier shot? What if I (a lifelong non-smoker) claim I just started smoking so I get priority?
Once they get past the healthcare workers, nursing home residents and teachers, it's easier - and FASTER - just to use a single, easily documented criterion.
By the way I felt differently about that early on but now that it's becoming more about throughput instead of supply constraint, I think that just changes this whole thing.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 27, 2021, 09:52:57 AM
Agree. Simplicity is good. I wish more states were following CT's lead.
And the alternative they're using in most states - complicated schemes based on jobs, types of living arrangements, medical conditions, etc. - opens a Pandora's box of complicated questions, and rife with opportunities to game the system. What if someone comes in claiming a medical condition, but refuses to provide evidence of it? What if someone knows the manager of a grocery store and gets 'hired' just to get an earlier shot? What if I (a lifelong non-smoker) claim I just started smoking so I get priority?
Once they get past the healthcare workers, nursing home residents and teachers, it's easier - and FASTER - just to use a single, easily documented criterion.
Right. The alternative is create a bunch of busy work that creates all sorts of backlogs. We just need to trust that people will wait their turn. Will some skip? Undoubtedly. But the alternative of providing documentation is much worse.
I agree. I joined a FB group yesterday called Chicago Vaccine Hunters ( there is one for Milwaukee too) trying to get info for people. The Illinois expansion into phase 1b+ is causing mass confusion and causing seniors who aren't that tech savvy to despair. Some counties in the Chicago area opted out, but the private providers like pharmacies are following state guidelines in some cases not county. So 1b+, people with pre-existing conditions younger than 65, are all over the place trying to get appointments in the city, being told to answer 'yes' to whether they are eligible in their county when they aren't, some places ask for documentation while others don't....it's a mess. The honor system doesn't work. And if you raise that issue even a teeny bit, people think you want them dead.
The simpler the better. Always.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 27, 2021, 09:43:30 AM
It was a smart move to simplify. There would have been exclusion complaints and maybe lawsuits no matter where the line was drawn. As long as no hiccups in supply, this will be over before anything can be fully litigated.
I totally agree. The faster people are vaccinated the sooner we all benefit.
Plus it follows one of the dictums I learned in Marquette Engineering School.
KISS Principle - Keep it simple stupid!
J&J vaccine officially given emergency use authorization by FDA. Not surprising given the news from the last few days, but another huge win for science and the world.
This will help in the US, especially in rural areas and communities where follow-up is a challenge, and be an absolute game-changer in lower income countries.
If science is real, why the angst about contracting covid after being vaccinated? Either you trust science and the vaccine is 95% effective or science isn't real, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 09:11:56 PM
If science is real, why the angst about contracting covid after being vaccinated? Either you trust science and the vaccine is 95% effective or science isn't real, hey?
As your post says, it isn't 100% effective. So people who have been vaccinated can still contract even the original virus. And we don't know how effective the vaccine is against emerging strains, so it would be perfectly reasonable to be anxious about the possibility of weaker immunity against them as well. And then there is the chance of carrying and transmitting the virus to friends or loved ones.
Strongly disagree. Even with 95% immunity, you have a 99% chance of surviving covid , if you contract it. Pretty good odds, wouldn't you say? Those who are skeptical and/or afraid need to do whatever makes them comfortable. Just don't impose any restrictions on the rest of us who are vaccinated or willing to live "normally." Life is a gamble every day. People die in their sleep or can die during sexual intercourse. So, pick your poison. Carrying on, as we have for nearly a year now is crazy. Time to end this nonsense and all that goes with it.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 09:46:02 PM
Strongly disagree. Even with 95% immunity, you have a 99% chance of surviving covid , if you contract it. Pretty good odds, wouldn't you say?
Again, you are just talking about the original variant. It is likely less effective against some of the other current variants. And we don't yet know how effective it will be against variants that evolve over the coming months.
And of course you ignored the my comment about the possibility of carrying the virus and passing it on to friends or loved ones.
It's hard for people to prevent you from going out and doing stupid stuff if you are so inclined. But don't expect everyone else to follow.
Let me clarify in a way many of you should understand. Science is real, aina? So, once vaccinated, its time to eliminate the absurdity. As I said, those who still insist on staying in their hidey hole, you be you. The rest of us want no part of this craziness any more.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 10:01:45 PM
Let me clarify in a way many of you should understand. Science is real, aina? So, once vaccinated, its time to eliminate the absurdity. As I said, those who still insist on staying in their hidey hole, you be you. The rest of us want no part of this craziness any more.
Once we have herd immunity, yes. We aren't close to that right now. But thankfully due to what transpired in November, we'll get there much faster than we would've with 4 more years of the Orange dude, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 10:01:45 PM
Let me clarify in a way many of you should understand. Science is real, aina? So, once vaccinated, its time to eliminate the absurdity. As I said, those who still insist on staying in their hidey hole, you be you. The rest of us want no part of this craziness any more.
Good call doc! I'll start recommending everyone with TB to visit your office since they're sick of the craziness that the world imposes on them!
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 28, 2021, 12:52:04 AM
Good call doc! I'll start recommending everyone with TB to visit your office since they're sick of the craziness that the world imposes on them!
didn't see anything in doc's post saying if one has active covid to run around coughing in everyone's food. between herd immunity and vaccinations, this thing will become like any other "thing" going around. the variants tend to be weakened versions of the original monster from wuhan. we aren't going to completely eradicate this thing like fowsi thinks. but it's time for people to come out of their basements and schools, churches and restaurants open. time for the gubmint to take their boots off the necks of the people
speakin of "orange things" that orange press secretary, saki girl circle around gig ought to be done pretty soon eyn'a
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 09:46:02 PM
Strongly disagree. Even with 95% immunity, you have a 99% chance of surviving covid , if you contract it. Pretty good odds, wouldn't you say? Those who are skeptical and/or afraid need to do whatever makes them comfortable. Just don't impose any restrictions on the rest of us who are vaccinated or willing to live "normally." Life is a gamble every day. People die in their sleep or can die during sexual intercourse. So, pick your poison. Carrying on, as we have for nearly a year now is crazy. Time to end this nonsense and all that goes with it.
By and large I agree with you except the science says that those who are vaccinated may still be able to carry and pass along the disease. Therefore we need to wait until significantly more of the population is vaccinated. My goal is Memorial Day. By that point, almost all of those who have either significant conditions or who could face significant viral loads should be taken care of.
I also wonder where your can't live your life "normally." Restaurants and bars are largely open. There aren't any domestic travel restrictions.
But as I have said before, telling people we may be living like this until 2022 is exactly the wrong message if you want to encourage vaccination.
"I also wonder where your can't live your life "normally."
depends on how you describe 'normally"
there are some states, i.e. california, illinois, michigan, new york which might not even be at 25% plus no school. if someone wants to try to avoid any viral contact, stay home or wear a mask even though mask are of dubious defense. however, if i have had the vaccine(which i have) and others who haven't been vaccinated are wearing a mask, then they have nothing to worry about along with practicing the other "safe practices"
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 07:17:15 AM
"I also wonder where your can't live your life "normally."
depends on how you describe 'normally"
there are some states, i.e. california, illinois, michigan, new york which might not even be at 25% plus no school. if someone wants to try to avoid any viral contact, stay home or wear a mask even though mask are of dubious defense. however, if i have had the vaccine(which i have) and others who haven't been vaccinated are wearing a mask, then they have nothing to worry about along with practicing the other "safe practices"
4ever lives in Wisconsin and does not have school age children.
And masks are about limiting your ability to spread. And if you can still spread while vaccinated, wearing a mask until more people are fully vaccinated makes perfect sense. Mask wearing sucks but is hardly a significant inconvenience.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 28, 2021, 07:21:46 AM
4ever lives in Wisconsin and does not have school age children.
And masks are about limiting your ability to spread. And if you can still spread while vaccinated, wearing a mask until more people are fully vaccinated makes perfect sense. Mask wearing sucks but is hardly a significant inconvenience.
So the mask wearing is about protecting other people? Who knew? ;D
But doc and many of the other anti Covid prevention measure folks have made it abundantly clear that they don't give a flying f about other people, it's all about them,
By the way, when I say Memorial Day, I fully believe by that point that we will have the supply and distribution problems largely managed. That those who still haven't been vaccinated will be those who either refuse or who haven't gotten around to it, like many do with other routine medical procedures. In other words, it will become an issue of demand rather than supply.
And my willingness to continue to live this way for the sake of the ignorant and lazy isn't very high.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 06:50:36 AM
didn't see anything in doc's post saying if one has active covid to run around coughing in everyone's food. between herd immunity and vaccinations, this thing will become like any other "thing" going around. the variants tend to be weakened versions of the original monster from wuhan. we aren't going to completely eradicate this thing like fowsi thinks. but it's time for people to come out of their basements and schools, churches and restaurants open. time for the gubmint to take their boots off the necks of the people
speakin of "orange things" that orange press secretary, saki girl circle around gig ought to be done pretty soon eyn'a
Rocket, you need to brush up on your understanding of basic science and medicine. First, the problem is a good chunk of the spread is from asymptomatic individuals, or pre-symptomatic individuals, so they have no idea if they are running around with infectious COVID. If you argue for people just doing what they want, then you will have people with actively infectious COVID running around with zero precautions.
Second, you are 100% wrong on variants. COVID variants emerge because they are more infectious. They spread easier, so they start to dominate amongst circulating variants. These can then be either equally, more, or less virulent. Most of the strains that have emerged are either equally or more virulent.
For people in the medical profession, you and 4ever seriously lack even a basic understanding of health and disease.
Quote from: forgetful on February 28, 2021, 09:19:06 AM
Rocket, you nee to brush up on your understanding of basic science and medicine. First, the problem is a good chunk of the spread is from asymptomatic individuals, or pre-symptomatic individuals, so they have no idea if they are running around with infectious COVID. If you argue for people just doing what they want, then you will have people with actively infectious COVID running around with zero precautions.
Second, you are 100% wrong on variants. COVID variants emerge because they are more infectious. They spread easier, so they start to dominate amongst circulating variants. These can then be either equally, more, or less virulent. Most of the strains that have emerged are either equally or more virulent.
For people in the medical profession, you and 4ever seriously lack even a basic understanding of health and disease.
And empathy for the vast majority of us who haven't yet gotten the vaccine, and are desperately waiting our turn to be protected from a virus that could make us terribly sick, lead to long-term complications, or even kill us.
We're all waiting for basic safety, and they come here whining about the inconvenience to their vaccine-protected selves. Nice.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 09:46:02 PM
Strongly disagree. Even with 95% immunity, you have a 99% chance of surviving covid , if you contract it. Pretty good odds, wouldn't you say? Those who are skeptical and/or afraid need to do whatever makes them comfortable. Just don't impose any restrictions on the rest of us who are vaccinated or willing to live "normally." Life is a gamble every day. People die in their sleep or can die during sexual intercourse. So, pick your poison. Carrying on, as we have for nearly a year now is crazy. Time to end this nonsense and all that goes with it.
First you talk about contacting covid. Now you talk about surviving it.
So, which is it?
Quote from: pbiflyer on February 28, 2021, 08:21:14 AM
So the mask wearing is about protecting other people? Who knew? ;D
But doc and many of the other anti Covid prevention measure folks have made it abundantly clear that they don't give a flying f about other people, it's all about them,
"anti Covid prevention measure folks" are you kidding me??
listen up pb!!
we have been open and treating patients since may 1. a rough estimate is that we have probably had 40-50 patients per day walk thru our doors for 10 months now. that's 200-250/week (5 day work week) so approx 10,000 patients since may 1. we have had ONE employee become ill and we know that she caught it from her mother outside our clinic. i have had NO patient come back to us telling us that they have suspected of contacting or contact traced an illness back to us.
i come home from work every day, stripped out of my clothes, shower. my scrubs stay at office and are laundered there. my wife who has just come off of a successful breast cancer therapy during which her immune response was very compromised, has been covid free. my 86 year old mother whom i've had multiple contacts with, has been covid free. my father who is in a nursing home came down with a very (thank God) mild case of covid, not from me, has recovered just fine. my 2 sons and their friends are covid free.
so you can walk your very misguided, short sighted, generalized and libelous statement back any time now. i won't be holding my breath, but speaking of which, now i believe i know where the initials "pb" come from, or should anyway
I think the communication from Biden and Fauci hasn't been great recently. Maybe because I'm scanning articles, but it seems to me they are saying even with the vaccine, we will be masked into 2022 with limited things open. Almost similar to what we are doing now. Is that the case? Or is that a case of just reading biased tweets without actually reading the articles?
I mean, if we are mostly back to normal going into 2022 and masked when going to stadium events where there's 10k-70k people in close quarters, I could live with that. But my thought is once I get the vaccine, I'll be expanding my bubble and there would be very limited masking by this fall.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 28, 2021, 11:13:41 AM
I think the communication from Biden and Fauci hasn't been great recently. Maybe because I'm scanning articles, but it seems to me they are saying even with the vaccine, we will be masked into 2022 with limited things open. Almost similar to what we are doing now. Is that the case? Or is that a case of just reading biased tweets without actually reading the articles?
I mean, if we are mostly back to normal going into 2022 and masked when going to stadium events where there's 10k-70k people in close quarters, I could live with that. But my thought is once I get the vaccine, I'll be expanding my bubble and there would be very limited masking by this fall.
I think the messaging is bad and doing a disservice to the vaccination campaign, which could be severely hampered by a "what's the point" reaction.
Look the goal shouldn't be to eliminate Covid or even Covid deaths or hospitalizations. People will continue to get Covid. The vast majority will be OK. Some will die.
But if we haven't masked and distanced for the flu in recent years, why would we do for this?
There should be a huge "get the vaccination" campaign with light at the end of the tunnel type messaging. Look at Neyetanyahu in Israel and some of the add they are putting out. Let's copy those.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 09:46:02 PM
Time to end this nonsense and all that goes with it.
No, it isn't nonsense. And no, it isn't time to end it until we achieve herd immunity.
So simple even a healthcare professional can grasp it.
Downside... my mother in law now has two doses on board and now wants to start visiting again.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 10:54:58 AM
"anti Covid prevention measure folks" are you kidding me??
listen up pb!!
we have been open and treating patients since may 1. a rough estimate is that we have probably had 40-50 patients per day walk thru our doors for 10 months now. that's 200-250/week (5 day work week) so approx 10,000 patients since may 1. we have had ONE employee become ill and we know that she caught it from her mother outside our clinic. i have had NO patient come back to us telling us that they have suspected of contacting or contact traced an illness back to us.
i come home from work every day, stripped out of my clothes, shower. my scrubs stay at office and are laundered there. my wife who has just come off of a successful breast cancer therapy during which her immune response was very compromised, has been covid free. my 86 year old mother whom i've had multiple contacts with, has been covid free. my father who is in a nursing home came down with a very (thank God) mild case of covid, not from me, has recovered just fine. my 2 sons and their friends are covid free.
so you can walk your very misguided, short sighted, generalized and libelous statement back any time now. i won't be holding my breath, but speaking of which, now i believe i know where the initials "pb" come from, or should anyway
If you are so pro-science and truly understand the risks, why not have more empathy for the great majority of us who are still awaiting our turn for the vaccine?
Your '
I got to the front of the line, so let ME get back to normal' rings pretty hollow when most of us are still worried about contracting a potentially very serious (or deadly) illness. Cura personalis, ai'na?
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 28, 2021, 12:29:10 PM
No, it isn't nonsense. And no, it isn't time to end it until we achieve herd immunity.
So simple even a healthcare professional can grasp it.
Tony, you be you and I just want to be me. Doesn't bother me if you stay in your hidey hole from now until MU wins its next Natty. Just I want less government intervention, not more. For the record, Fauci is an idiot who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 28, 2021, 01:04:37 PM
Tony, you be you and I just want to be me. Doesn't bother me if you stay in your hidey hole from now until MU wins its next Natty. Just I want less government intervention, not more. For the record, Fauci is an idiot who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
Between him and you, I know which "health care professional" I would trust more.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 28, 2021, 01:16:01 PM
Between him and you, I know which "health care professional" I would trust more.
Knowing we need 75% of the population vaccinated, I'll take the one who is saying, "Just open everything up and let me be me!" while we're sitting at 7.1% fully vaccinated.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 28, 2021, 12:57:49 PM
If you are so pro-science and truly understand the risks, why not have more empathy for the great majority of us who are still awaiting our turn for the vaccine?
Your 'I got to the front of the line, so let ME get back to normal' rings pretty hollow when most of us are still worried about contracting a potentially very serious (or deadly) illness. Cura personalis, ai'na?
where did i say i have no empathy for anyone? i just got done outlining how careful we've been for the last 10 months and the obvious effectiveness of that "empathy"
as doc just said earlier, i want the gubmint out of the way. on the one hand, they say this shouldn't be politicized, but then do nothing but politicize it. they continue to do a huge disservice to people, scaring the chit out of them so much so that many are afraid to even go to the hospital to take care of other medical issues. they kowtow to the teachers union even though the science says open the hell up. they continue to genuflect in front of fauci who has been about as consistent as gas station sushi. their attitude to this unfortunate pandemic is, let not us show any light at the end of the tunnel for they may actually go back to church and school or something. i just detect a little "not letting a good crtisis go to waste" here.
if
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
where did i say i have no empathy for anyone? i just got done outlining how careful we've been for the last 10 months and the obvious effectiveness of that "empathy"
as doc just said earlier, i want the gubmint out of the way. on the one hand, they say this shouldn't be politicized, but then do nothing but politicize it. they continue to do a huge disservice to people, scaring the chit out of them so much so that many are afraid to even go to the hospital to take care of other medical issues. they kowtow to the teachers union even though the science says open the hell up. they continue to genuflect in front of fauci who has been about as consistent as gas station sushi. their attitude to this unfortunate pandemic is, let not us show any light at the end of the tunnel for they may actually go back to church and school or something. i just detect a little "not letting a good crtisis go to waste" here.
if
The government has been way more right than you have been.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM
where did i say i have no empathy for anyone? i just got done outlining how careful we've been for the last 10 months and the obvious effectiveness of that "empathy"
as doc just said earlier, i want the gubmint out of the way. on the one hand, they say this shouldn't be politicized, but then do nothing but politicize it. they continue to do a huge disservice to people, scaring the chit out of them so much so that many are afraid to even go to the hospital to take care of other medical issues. they kowtow to the teachers union even though the science says open the hell up. they continue to genuflect in front of fauci who has been about as consistent as gas station sushi. their attitude to this unfortunate pandemic is, let not us show any light at the end of the tunnel for they may actually go back to church and school or something. i just detect a little "not letting a good crtisis go to waste" here.
You didn't say it. That's kinda the point. People who lack empathy often don't realize it.
But it shines through with your '
now that I have MY vaccine, it's time for us all to go back to normal' tirades.
Empathy would cause you to
feel and understand the anxiety and fear of the ~85% of the population who still haven't been able to get their first dose of the vaccine, instead of having to be
told about it.
texas wanted gubmint out of the way, too ... until they had to beg gubmint to bail them out for their massive failure with their grid -- one they lied about and tried to blame on a green new deal that doesn't even exist.
lotsa folks want gubmint out of the way ... until they need gubmint.
i'll bet you'll accept your social security and medicare checks, you'll drive on the interstate highway system, you'll go to a national park or two, you'll be happy firefighters show up if your house catches fire, etc etc etc.
damn gubmint!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 27, 2021, 10:01:45 PM
Let me clarify in a way many of you should understand. Science is real, aina? So, once vaccinated, its time to eliminate the absurdity. As I said, those who still insist on staying in their hidey hole, you be you. The rest of us want no part of this craziness any more.
Why dentists shouldn't be considered medical professionals, MUScoop V2.0.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 28, 2021, 01:04:37 PM
Tony, you be you and I just want to be me. Doesn't bother me if you stay in your hidey hole from now until MU wins its next Natty. Just I want less government intervention, not more. For the record, Fauci is an idiot who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
It is important to admit when you are wrong, and I have to admit I was wrong.
I should have said, "So simple even
some healthcare professionals can grasp it."
You should protest the horrors of government. Don't wear your seat belt. Drive around drunk. And definitely don't pay attention to traffic lights; why does government get to dictate when you should stop anyway? Shouldn't you just be allowed to be you? Shouldn't you be the one to decide when you can go through a busy intersection?
Odd, I thought 4ever was all about 'submitting' to government officials.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 10:54:58 AM
"anti Covid prevention measure folks" are you kidding me??
listen up pb!!
we have been open and treating patients since may 1. a rough estimate is that we have probably had 40-50 patients per day walk thru our doors for 10 months now. that's 200-250/week (5 day work week) so approx 10,000 patients since may 1. we have had ONE employee become ill and we know that she caught it from her mother outside our clinic. i have had NO patient come back to us telling us that they have suspected of contacting or contact traced an illness back to us.
i come home from work every day, stripped out of my clothes, shower. my scrubs stay at office and are laundered there. my wife who has just come off of a successful breast cancer therapy during which her immune response was very compromised, has been covid free. my 86 year old mother whom i've had multiple contacts with, has been covid free. my father who is in a nursing home came down with a very (thank God) mild case of covid, not from me, has recovered just fine. my 2 sons and their friends are covid free.
so you can walk your very misguided, short sighted, generalized and libelous statement back any time now. i won't be holding my breath, but speaking of which, now i believe i know where the initials "pb" come from, or should anyway
Given your whining about all the Covid restrictions and desire for your vaccinated body to do whatever the hell you want, it is even more stunning that you go through what you described and aren't supporting distancing and mask wearing and limits.
And I am not only a care taker for my 96 year old father, but also battling cancer right now. So excuse me if I don't fall over and succumb to your demands.
Quote from: pbiflyer on February 28, 2021, 04:52:22 PM
Given your whining about all the Covid restrictions and desire for your vaccinated body to do whatever the hell you want, it is even more stunning that you go through what you described and aren't supporting distancing and mask wearing and limits.
And I am not only a care taker for my 96 year old father, but also battling cancer right now. So excuse me if I don't fall over and succumb to your demands.
You could just apologize to the guy for a silly comment.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on February 28, 2021, 05:34:54 PM
You could just apologize to the guy for a silly comment.
Sorry, I spent 3 months knowing that if I get Covid, it could put me in serious danger, that if my father got it, he could die.
To endlessly listen to people poopooing science, whining about measures to stop the spread, cheering the idiot who said it would magically go away is exhausting.
If he got butt hurt for being called out about it, not my issue. Sorry, but not really.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 28, 2021, 02:56:02 PM
You didn't say it. That's kinda the point. People who lack empathy often don't realize it.
But it shines through with your 'now that I have MY vaccine, it's time for us all to go back to normal' tirades.
Empathy would cause you to feel and understand the anxiety and fear of the ~85% of the population who still haven't been able to get their first dose of the vaccine, instead of having to be told about it.
that's just not right. you are assuming i am non empathetic because of my politics, i just got vaccine #2 last friday. as i told you, we've been in people's mouths since may 1, 2020. if i was so non empathetic, ya think there might have been a few more infections coming out of our office? just a few?? maybe 3, 4 5? we had ONE employee, and that was from her mother who is a nurse. she got tested the minute she found out her mother was covid positive and she was paid for the days she had to be out of work!! i did what it took to keep my patients, my employees and my family safe.
actions are louder than words!!
so what makes you or anyone else here care MORE than i do??
Quote from: pbiflyer on February 28, 2021, 06:07:56 PM
Sorry, I spent 3 months knowing that if I get Covid, it could put me in serious danger, that if my father got it, he could die.
To endlessly listen to people poopooing science, whining about measures to stop the spread, cheering the idiot who said it would magically go away is exhausting.
If he got butt hurt for being called out about it, not my issue. Sorry, but not really.
butt hurt? ohhh, now it's about you? so let's see who's stream is longer?
if i get covid, i put my dad, my mom, my wife, my patients in serious danger not to mention put my employees livelihood at risk. so get off your high horse and realize you were just wrong about me
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 06:20:24 PM
butt hurt? ohhh, now it's about you? so let's see who's stream is longer?
if i get covid, i put my dad, my mom, my wife, my patients in serious danger not to mention put my employees livelihood at risk. so get off your high horse and realize you were just wrong about me
Right. So now you're vaccinated. But you're one of 7.5% of America's population. So maybe slow the idea of "gubmint" stepping aside and letting people do as they want. There's still a long way to go. Even if YOU are vaccinated. Sometimes the world is bigger than just YOU.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 28, 2021, 06:13:49 PM
that's just not right. you are assuming i am non empathetic because of my politics, i just got vaccine #2 last friday. as i told you, we've been in people's mouths since may 1, 2020. if i was so non empathetic, ya think there might have been a few more infections coming out of our office? just a few?? maybe 3, 4 5? we had ONE employee, and that was from her mother who is a nurse. she got tested the minute she found out her mother was covid positive and she was paid for the days she had to be out of work!! i did what it took to keep my patients, my employees and my family safe.
actions are louder than words!!
so what makes you or anyone else here care MORE than i do??
It isn't about politics and it isn't about just being a good son, husband, dad or employer. That's looking out for your own. Not a bad thing, but it isn't what I'm talking about.
If you were truly an empathetic person, you would be able to put yourself in the shoes of all the unvaccinated people out there and understand their fear instead of mocking it. You would understand the bigger picture, and intuitively make the sacrifice for the greater good instead of complaining about your petty inconveniences.
Great. Bickering about politics...
Below is a link to something that is being noticed anecdotally...vaccines are helping long haulers feel better. Dr Iwasaki has some hypotheses and knowing the types of research they have been pursuing — hopefully starting a study.
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1366067849480048643?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1366067849480048643?s=21)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 28, 2021, 06:42:39 PM
Great. Bickering about politics...
Below is a link to something that is being noticed anecdotally...vaccines are helping long haulers feel better. Dr Iwasaki has some hypotheses and knowing the types of research they have been pursuing — hopefully starting a study.
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1366067849480048643?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1366067849480048643?s=21)
Yep. The politics is getting old. Even when you make a comment about empathy, people try to turn it into politics. Crazy place...
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 28, 2021, 06:42:39 PM
Below is a link to something that is being noticed anecdotally...vaccines are helping long haulers feel better. Dr Iwasaki has some hypotheses and knowing the types of research they have been pursuing — hopefully starting a study.
https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1366067849480048643?s=21 (https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1366067849480048643?s=21)
It is great that they are seeing evidence that the vaccine might help long-haulers. I never would have imagined that, and I hope it turns out to be true after further scientific study.
It must be awful to suffer through the initial illness, think you have finally put it past you, and then have symptoms for months on end.
I don't know if it is a coincidence or causality, but I got round 1 on February 17 and my sense of smell is slowly returning. After no real improvement for 3 months.
Quote from: tower912 on February 28, 2021, 06:51:11 PM
I don't know if it is a coincidence or causality, but I got round 1 on February 17 and my sense of smell is slowly returning. After no real improvement for 3 months.
Great to hear - hope it continues tower!
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 28, 2021, 06:44:18 PM
Yep. The politics is getting old. Even when you make a comment about empathy, people try to turn it into politics. Crazy place...
Ya and you have no role in the political bickering right?!? Crazy place indeed
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on February 28, 2021, 08:09:55 PM
Ya and you have no role in the political bickering right?!? Crazy place indeed
Used to on occasion. Got old, so I gave it up and now stick with Covid, MU hoops or whatever.
Have a nice night.
Three straight says of over 2 million vaccinated. Hopefully we can keep the pace.
Quote from: tower912 on February 28, 2021, 06:51:11 PM
I don't know if it is a coincidence or causality, but I got round 1 on February 17 and my sense of smell is slowly returning. After no real improvement for 3 months.
Mine is still 100 percent gone.
I feel ya. Big odorless pile of suck.
Quote from: tower912 on March 01, 2021, 05:58:32 AM
I feel ya. Big odorless pile of suck.
Can't smell the old lady's farts though.
Yesterday we had some bacon that .. had no flavor. Super odd, just flat pieces of flavorless bacon. Everything else tasted fine though.
If COVID-21 just eliminates your taste of bacon, just kill us now.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 01, 2021, 08:52:32 AM
Can't smell the old lady's farts though.
my gas never stinks...they do now though! no wonder they still recommend a mask or 3
Thought this was worth a read- https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/
In relation to the discussion here, these passages stood out:
And the public behavior of the vaccinated cannot change overnight—even if they are at much lower risk, it's not reasonable to expect a grocery store to try to verify who's vaccinated, or to have two classes of people with different rules. For now, it's courteous and prudent for everyone to obey the same guidelines in many public places... But it is time to imagine a better future, not just because it's drawing nearer but because that's how we get through what remains and keep our guard up as necessary. It's also realistic—reflecting the genuine increased safety for the vaccinated.
We should encourage people to dream about the end of this pandemic by talking about it more, and more concretely: the numbers, hows, and whys. Offering clear guidance on how this will end can help strengthen people's resolve to endure whatever is necessary for the moment—even if they are still unvaccinated—by building warranted and realistic anticipation of the pandemic's end.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 01, 2021, 10:40:46 AM
Thought this was worth a read- https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/
In relation to the discussion here, these passages stood out:
And the public behavior of the vaccinated cannot change overnight—even if they are at much lower risk, it's not reasonable to expect a grocery store to try to verify who's vaccinated, or to have two classes of people with different rules. For now, it's courteous and prudent for everyone to obey the same guidelines in many public places... But it is time to imagine a better future, not just because it's drawing nearer but because that's how we get through what remains and keep our guard up as necessary. It's also realistic—reflecting the genuine increased safety for the vaccinated.
We should encourage people to dream about the end of this pandemic by talking about it more, and more concretely: the numbers, hows, and whys. Offering clear guidance on how this will end can help strengthen people's resolve to endure whatever is necessary for the moment—even if they are still unvaccinated—by building warranted and realistic anticipation of the pandemic's end.
But fear porn drives eyeballs and clicks.
That is a great article. So spot on. There is so much reason for hope and we are just months away.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 01, 2021, 10:40:46 AM
Thought this was worth a read- https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/
In relation to the discussion here, these passages stood out:
And the public behavior of the vaccinated cannot change overnight—even if they are at much lower risk, it's not reasonable to expect a grocery store to try to verify who's vaccinated, or to have two classes of people with different rules. For now, it's courteous and prudent for everyone to obey the same guidelines in many public places... But it is time to imagine a better future, not just because it's drawing nearer but because that's how we get through what remains and keep our guard up as necessary. It's also realistic—reflecting the genuine increased safety for the vaccinated.
We should encourage people to dream about the end of this pandemic by talking about it more, and more concretely: the numbers, hows, and whys. Offering clear guidance on how this will end can help strengthen people's resolve to endure whatever is necessary for the moment—even if they are still unvaccinated—by building warranted and realistic anticipation of the pandemic's end.
That's a great perspective. For me a vaccine would mean going out and about more, but I would still happily oblige masks and distancing requirements as more get vaccinated. We've done minimal shopping and limited in person gatherings quite a bit. Being able to expand our circle and activities would do a lot, even if it is still masked.
I never really thought about the difficulty of enforcing the vaccinated versus non-vaccinated.
I've had it, I've had my first vaccine. Still wearing a mask in public buildings. Two reasons. 1. Common courtesy. 2. I'm better looking with the mask.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 01, 2021, 11:30:37 AM
That's a great perspective. For me a vaccine would mean going out and about more, but I would still happily oblige masks and distancing requirements as more get vaccinated. We've done minimal shopping and limited in person gatherings quite a bit. Being able to expand our circle and activities would do a lot, even if it is still masked.
I never really thought about the difficulty of enforcing the vaccinated versus non-vaccinated.
Agreed. My vaccine is still likely several weeks off, but if the CDC is still recommending masks at that point, I will happily do so to protect those not yet vaccinated.
I will just be thrilled to go out in public without the fear of getting infected. Masking to protect others is a small price to pay.
Quote from: tower912 on March 01, 2021, 11:56:26 AM
I've had it, I've had my first vaccine. Still wearing a mask in public buildings. Two reasons. 1. Common courtesy. 2. I'm better looking with the mask.
Sure. It's all about you!
Taking pity on others.
I keep seeing people post about getting vaccinated and I *know* they are not eligible yet.
Are the vaccinators checking at all?
Am I a sucker for not hunting for a shot and jumping the line?
Asking for a friend.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 01, 2021, 03:49:22 PM
I keep seeing people post about getting vaccinated and I *know* they are not eligible yet.
Are the vaccinators checking at all?
Am I a sucker for not hunting for a shot and jumping the line?
Asking for a friend.
We have a friend or two that I'm curious how they fit in. Unless the child caregiver or teacher categories are extremely broad.
It's basically on the honor system.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 01, 2021, 03:49:22 PM
I keep seeing people post about getting vaccinated and I *know* they are not eligible yet.
Are the vaccinators checking at all?
Am I a sucker for not hunting for a shot and jumping the line?
Asking for a friend.
I'm not going to lie, I did very little consulting work to get mine. That being said I'm ok with getting it on a technicality given the whole "add smokers to 1B" thing.
They did not check my pay stub or my signed letter saying I was working for the company. The lady said "which category?" I said "manufacturing" she gave me my first vaccine card and injected me.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 01, 2021, 03:49:22 PM
I keep seeing people post about getting vaccinated and I *know* they are not eligible yet.
Are the vaccinators checking at all?
Am I a sucker for not hunting for a shot and jumping the line?
Asking for a friend.
Which si why Connecticut is doing age based approach only to limit this stuff.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 01, 2021, 03:49:22 PM
I keep seeing people post about getting vaccinated and I *know* they are not eligible yet.
Are the vaccinators checking at all?
Am I a sucker for not hunting for a shot and jumping the line?
Asking for a friend.
The teaching category is pretty wide open. Marquette has issued letters to adjunct profs indicating that they qualify, yet some are 100% remote instructing. I have a neighbor who volunteered to work at a vaccination site, so she (as she should, IMO) received the vax, even though she is in her 40's and would not otherwise qualify. And I'm aware of a few that have been called to the convention center at the end of the day to fill in for no-shows as the vaccine apparently would otherwise have gone to waste.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 01, 2021, 03:56:38 PM
It's basically on the honor system.
Yep. I know a number of people in the Tri State as well as CA who don't fall into the age or employment categories who have gotten vaccines. A few took advantage of the honor system, but others just got them cause of flaws in the system that they just shrugged and accepted
The article mentioned it, and I "get" fear sells and gets more clicks, but the vaccine work is a modern day miracle. I don't think people appreciate how quickly and how decisively strong these vaccines are against Covid-19.
If these vaccines hadn't arrived until late 2021, I can't imagine how miserable I'd be. Without supply chain issues, anyone who wants a vaccine should be able to almost have both doses by Memorial Day. That's eff'n amazing.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 01, 2021, 05:04:49 PM
The article mentioned it, and I "get" fear sells and gets more clicks, but the vaccine work is a modern day miracle. I don't think people appreciate how quickly and how decisively strong these vaccines are against Covid-19.
If these vaccines hadn't arrived until late 2021, I can't imagine how miserable I'd be. Without supply chain issues, anyone who wants a vaccine should be able to almost have both doses by Memorial Day. That's eff'n amazing.
Amazing indeed.
I'm near the end of the line, and a few months ago thought I'd be lucky to get vaccinated by next fall or winter. And even
that would have been amazing when you consider that it usually takes several years to produce new vaccines. Then when Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines got approved in quick succession, I thought I'd move up to June or July. Now with increased production plus J&J on the way, I am expecting my first dose by April or May. Wow!
My wife and I just scheduled our 1st shots for tomorrow.
I can't find a written story, but I just heard on the NBC news that CDC is actively studying whether people who previously had Covid only need a single dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine.
If this strategy is ultimately approved, it would accelerate the rollout even further.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 01, 2021, 05:04:49 PM
The article mentioned it, and I "get" fear sells and gets more clicks, but the vaccine work is a modern day miracle. I don't think people appreciate how quickly and how decisively strong these vaccines are against Covid-19.
If these vaccines hadn't arrived until late 2021, I can't imagine how miserable I'd be. Without supply chain issues, anyone who wants a vaccine should be able to almost have both doses by Memorial Day. That's eff'n amazing.
Right. Growing weary of the "but is a third way coming?" ...when there is no real indication one is actually coming.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 01, 2021, 07:44:26 PM
Right. Growing weary of the "but is a third way coming?" ...when there is no real indication one is actually coming.
Total cases in the US have plateaued in the past few days at levels that are still higher than the summer surge. With more contagious variants spreading and states rolling back restrictions, another increase is a real possibility.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/01/cdc-director-really-worried-about-states-rolling-back-covid-measures-as-cases-appear-to-plateau-.html
The declines in Covid-19 cases seen since early January now appear to be stalling at around 70,000 new cases per day, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said during a White House news briefing. "With these statistics, I am really worried about more states rolling back the exact public health measures we have recommended to protect people from Covid-19."———————
We need to stay vigilant.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 01, 2021, 07:44:26 PM
Right. Growing weary of the "but is a third way coming?" ...when there is no real indication one is actually coming.
Maybe it's because spring is almost here, but I personally feel like there is a beaming light at the end of the tunnel and we are so close to getting there. I don't expect things to immediately get back to normal over night, but people should be borderline jubilant at how close we are getting.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 01, 2021, 07:51:26 PM
Total cases in the US have plateaued in the past few days at levels that are still higher than the summer surge. With more contagious variants spreading and states rolling back restrictions, another increase is a real possibility.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/01/cdc-director-really-worried-about-states-rolling-back-covid-measures-as-cases-appear-to-plateau-.html
The declines in Covid-19 cases seen since early January now appear to be stalling at around 70,000 new cases per day, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said during a White House news briefing. "With these statistics, I am really worried about more states rolling back the exact public health measures we have recommended to protect people from Covid-19."
———————
We need to stay vigilant.
I know all that.
Just tired of a teaspoon of fantastic news being followed by a gallon of pessimism.
And a lot of the increase makes sense. Schools and colleges are back (although we are seeing minuscule numbers compared to last semester). The real question is will hospitalizations and deaths follow at the same rate?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 01, 2021, 08:27:40 PM
I know all that.
Just tired of a teaspoon of fantastic news being followed by a gallon of pessimism.
And a lot of the increase makes sense. Schools and colleges are back (although we are seeing minuscule numbers compared to last semester). The real question is will hospitalizations and deaths follow at the same rate?
Deaths and hospitalizations likely won't rise at the previous rate because most of the highest risk people have been vaccinated. The bigger concern this time - other than people getting really sick - is that continued spread will leads to more different strains emerging. If enough spread continues, we could see vaccine-resistant strains.
You might call this pessimism, but it is simple virology. Reality.
If you want optimism, try this.
If we continue with masks and social distancing for a few more months and get most people vaccinated, we might get out of this without a vaccine-resistant strain emerging. There's your optimism.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 01, 2021, 09:08:51 PM
If you want optimism, try this. If we continue with masks and social distancing for a few more months and get most people vaccinated, we might get out of this without a vaccine-resistant strain emerging. There's your optimism.
This won't make sense to you because your caution and patience is well established but that's not optimism at all. That's more of what we've been hearing for quite some time. "Just hold the line and mask up/lockdown/social distance for x amount of time and we'll get through this". That may be the best advice and guidance, but more of that guidance, even with vaccine progress, isn't going to be some optimistic burst that gets people's spirits up.
Quote from: JWags85 on March 01, 2021, 10:08:39 PM
This won't make sense to you because your caution and patience is well established but that's not optimism at all. That's more of what we've been hearing for quite some time. "Just hold the line and mask up/lockdown/social distance for x amount of time and we'll get through this". That may be the best advice and guidance, but more of that guidance, even with vaccine progress, isn't going to be some optimistic burst that gets people's spirits up.
I get what you're saying, but I think a realistic prediction is better than an overly optimistic prediction which we then don't achieve.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 01, 2021, 03:49:22 PM
I keep seeing people post about getting vaccinated and I *know* they are not eligible yet.
Are the vaccinators checking at all?
Am I a sucker for not hunting for a shot and jumping the line?
Asking for a friend.
A lot of it depends on the state. Some have very vague definitions of phase 1b, where almost anyone will fit one of the categories. Others, also give a lot of leeway to providers (e.g. hospitals/major institutions in determining who qualifies). Some examples:
1. A professor is considered essential emergency personnel due to requirements that they are always on call in case of a fire/emergency in a lab with biosafety precautions. The university views them as a first responder, as they have to be on the scene immediately in the case of building emergency. The university can vaccinate them from their own pool of doses.
2. A professor does regular research in a medical building that also sees patients. Even thought they don't directly treat patients, some states give the university freedom to deem them "patient contact" personnel as they will encounter patients on a regular basis as a part of work functions.
3. An individual was treated previously for peripheral issues that may be a risk category: e.g. previous lung injury, previous blood clots, asthma. If it is in their records of patient treatment, some hospitals/clinics that are vaccine providers, reach out to these patients to give their patients with a documented issue on file priority, even if some of these issues may have resolved.
In all three of these, many peers of the people, may say they "know" their friend is not eligible yet, but by state guidelines they actually qualify.
Then there are the states where being a previous smoker, or simply overweight (who isn't by the BMI these days) are grounds for inclusion.
Bottom line, is in some states the systems are very vague and give a lot of deference to the providers on who gets included, leading to some thinking that people got vaccinated that shouldn't, but were within the guidelines of the state.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 01, 2021, 10:12:57 PM
I get what you're saying, but I think a realistic prediction is better than an overly optimistic prediction which we then don't achieve.
I never said anything about overly optimistic predictions. I actually am not talking about Scoop discussion at all.
I am talking about the overall messaging around Covid and the vaccination campaign. We are selling it wrong. We need to be doing everything we can to sell people on this, and the way you do that is through hope and optimism. Not through "yeah you better get your shot before more variants pop up and oh yeah plan on wearing masks through 2021."
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 01, 2021, 07:34:56 PM
I can't find a written story, but I just heard on the NBC news that CDC is actively studying whether people who previously had Covid only need a single dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine.
If this strategy is ultimately approved, it would accelerate the rollout even further.
Don't we already know the answer more or less? If the first shot of Moderna or Pfizer gets you to ~92% protection, that is already significantly better than the single shot of J&J.
Does Moderna/Pfizer also protect against serious illness and hospitalization with similar efficacy to J&J? We should already have that data between trials and now all the people receiving first doses, and if they do afford similar protection is seems the obvious answer is to get everyone single dosed first, and then treat the second dose as a booster shot.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 02, 2021, 06:19:27 AM
I never said anything about overly optimistic predictions. I actually am not talking about Scoop discussion at all.
I am talking about the overall messaging around Covid and the vaccination campaign. We are selling it wrong. We need to be doing everything we can to sell people on this, and the way you do that is through hope and optimism. Not through "yeah you better get your shot before more variants pop up and oh yeah plan on wearing masks through 2021."
One other thing. We have about two and a half months left of us having the political and social will to mitigate like we have for the last year. If we are lucky. Therefore we need to do all we can to drive people to get vaccinated because I think that is going to be more of a demand issue than a supply one in about six weeks.
Do you honestly think that Evers for instance will have the political will to extend a mask mandate into the summer? Doubtful. It will soon become an albatross. We are already having questions from parents and students about what next year will look like. They have no desire to go through another year like this one, and we are thinking very carefully about what precautions we are going to keep.
Unless something changes drastically for the worse, people are going to be done. Restaurants and bars will open to near capacity. Schools will be likely fully in-person. Family events will be taking place. Let's make sure people are protected first and foremost.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 02, 2021, 06:19:27 AM
I never said anything about overly optimistic predictions. I actually am not talking about Scoop discussion at all.
I am talking about the overall messaging around Covid and the vaccination campaign. We are selling it wrong. We need to be doing everything we can to sell people on this, and the way you do that is through hope and optimism. Not through "yeah you better get your shot before more variants pop up and oh yeah plan on wearing masks through 2021."
Good point. Make some localized commercials of people enjoying punts in a pub, at a festival, hugging family members at the holidays, etc and go for emotional appeal to return to life as it could be.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 02, 2021, 07:31:44 AM
One other thing. We have about two and a half months left of us having the political and social will to mitigate like we have for the last year. If we are lucky. Therefore we need to do all we can to drive people to get vaccinated because I think that is going to be more of a demand issue than a supply one in about six weeks.
Do you honestly think that Evers for instance will have the political will to extend a mask mandate into the summer? Doubtful. It will soon become an albatross. We are already having questions from parents and students about what next year will look like. They have no desire to go through another year like this one, and we are thinking very carefully about what precautions we are going to keep.
Unless something changes drastically for the worse, people are going to be done. Restaurants and bars will open to near capacity. Schools will be likely fully in-person. Family events will be taking place. Let's make sure people are protected first and foremost.
💯!!!! MU announced yesterday fall semester willlargely be normal with vast majority of classes being held in person. Alabama is lifting attendance restrictions for football games and plan to pack 80,000 in every Saturday, etc etc. I think you're spot on with your timeline, we have 60 days to get as many people vaccinated before the flood gates open with a return to normalcy, thank god.
And with savings accounts at historical highs get ready for an economic boom, we're back!!!!
I was listening to a WSJ podcast, and it sounds like the only reason J&J is one dose is that is how they ran their clinical trials. They didn't test on the impact of two doses.
If they go back and do that, their efficacy numbers would likely increase. They also said, don't pass up the J&J vaccine to wait for one of the others. It's still a very effective drug. Plus, we don't really have the luxury of choosing our brand.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 02, 2021, 08:46:50 AM
I was listening to a WSJ podcast, and it sounds like the only reason J&J is one dose is that is how they ran their clinical trials. They didn't test on the impact of two doses.
If they go back and do that, their efficacy numbers would likely increase. They also said, don't pass up the J&J vaccine to wait for one of the others. It's still a very effective drug. Plus, we don't really have the luxury of choosing our brand.
I'll also add that I bet you see J&J add in a booster based off the South African strain. That will give them their equivalent "2 dose" regime and likely boost their overall efficacy to match those of Pfizer and Moderna.
Had Pfizer and Moderna went with a 1-dose trial, they would have been approved as such.
Under a White House-brokered deal, Merck will help boost supplies of its rival Johnson & Johnson's vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/02/world/covid-19-coronavirus?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210302&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=52619&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#under-a-white-house-brokered-deal-merck-will-help-boost-supplies-of-its-rival-johnson-johnsons-vaccine
The pharmaceutical giant Merck & Co will help manufacture the new Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine under a highly unusual deal, brokered by the White House. The move could substantially increase the supply of the new vaccine and ramp up the pace of vaccination just as worrisome new variants of the virus are taking hold in the United States.
President Biden is expected to announce the arrangement, first reported by The Washington Post, on Tuesday, according to two senior administration officials, who confirmed the arrangement on condition of anonymity to discuss a matter that has not yet been made public. It comes just days after the Food and Drug Administration granted emergency authorization to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
Merck is an experienced vaccine manufacturer whose own attempt at making a coronavirus vaccine was unsuccessful. Officials described the partnership between the two competitors as "historic," and said it harkens back to Mr. Biden's vision of a wartime effort to fight the coronavirus, similar to the manufacturing campaigns waged during World War II.
According to one official involved, the administration has been scouring the manufacturing landscape for weeks, ever since it became evident that Johnson & Johnson's was running behind on its manufacturing. But just how quickly Merck will be able to ramp up is unclear. It will take months for the company to be able to convert its facilities to manufacture and package a vaccine that it did not invent.
Under the agreement, Merck will dedicate two of its facilities to production of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, which unlike the other two vaccines that have emergency approval in the U.S. requires only one shot.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 02, 2021, 06:19:27 AM
I never said anything about overly optimistic predictions. I actually am not talking about Scoop discussion at all.
I am talking about the overall messaging around Covid and the vaccination campaign. We are selling it wrong. We need to be doing everything we can to sell people on this, and the way you do that is through hope and optimism. Not through "yeah you better get your shot before more variants pop up and oh yeah plan on wearing masks through 2021."
The clarification helps.
You're talking public messaging and what the general public will probably accept. I'm talking science and what we should do to best mitigate the threat. Very different targets, and you're right: the general public likely would see my realistic message as pessimistic.
Things would probably have been different if the first message back in early 2020 was 'this is going to be a difficult fight, and we are going to have to make real sacrifices.' Instead, the messaging started with 'just the flu,' and public health officials have been fighting an uphill battle ever since.
Quote from: forgetful on March 02, 2021, 08:55:32 AM
I'll also add that I bet you see J&J add in a booster based off the South African strain. That will give them their equivalent "2 dose" regime and likely boost their overall efficacy to match those of Pfizer and Moderna.
Had Pfizer and Moderna went with a 1-dose trial, they would have been approved as such.
I think you're right on both. I also think there's a good chance that FDA and CDC will recommend going down to 1 dose on Pfizer and Moderna for people who had Covid earlier.
Quote from: MU82 on March 02, 2021, 09:30:27 AM
Under a White House-brokered deal, Merck will help boost supplies of its rival Johnson & Johnson's vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/02/world/covid-19-coronavirus?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210302&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=52619&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#under-a-white-house-brokered-deal-merck-will-help-boost-supplies-of-its-rival-johnson-johnsons-vaccine
The pharmaceutical giant Merck & Co will help manufacture the new Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine under a highly unusual deal, brokered by the White House. The move could substantially increase the supply of the new vaccine and ramp up the pace of vaccination just as worrisome new variants of the virus are taking hold in the United States.
President Biden is expected to announce the arrangement, first reported by The Washington Post, on Tuesday, according to two senior administration officials, who confirmed the arrangement on condition of anonymity to discuss a matter that has not yet been made public. It comes just days after the Food and Drug Administration granted emergency authorization to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
Merck is an experienced vaccine manufacturer whose own attempt at making a coronavirus vaccine was unsuccessful. Officials described the partnership between the two competitors as "historic," and said it harkens back to Mr. Biden's vision of a wartime effort to fight the coronavirus, similar to the manufacturing campaigns waged during World War II.
According to one official involved, the administration has been scouring the manufacturing landscape for weeks, ever since it became evident that Johnson & Johnson's was running behind on its manufacturing. But just how quickly Merck will be able to ramp up is unclear. It will take months for the company to be able to convert its facilities to manufacture and package a vaccine that it did not invent.
Under the agreement, Merck will dedicate two of its facilities to production of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, which unlike the other two vaccines that have emergency approval in the U.S. requires only one shot.
This is another piece of positive news.
Given the underlined part about the delay in Merck production, I suspect the impact in the US will be limited to vaccinating children once the vaccine is approved for them. The bigger impact - and this is HUGE - will be a faster rollout to developing countries to tamp down the worldwide spread.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 02, 2021, 09:34:30 AM
The clarification helps.
You're talking public messaging and what the general public will probably accept. I'm talking science and what we should do to best mitigate the threat. Very different targets, and you're right: the general public likely would see my realistic message as pessimistic.
Things would probably have been different if the first message back in early 2020 was 'this is going to be a difficult fight, and we are going to have to make real sacrifices.' Instead, the messaging started with 'just the flu,' and public health officials have been fighting an uphill battle ever since.
The initial message was also 2 weeks to flatten the curve.
People chose to remember what they want. For a lot of people, Fauci's credibility was shot then.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 02, 2021, 09:53:50 AM
The initial message was also 2 weeks to flatten the curve.
People chose to remember what they want. For a lot of people, Fauci's credibility was shot then.
As previously discussed, early on messaging was all over the place coming from all angles. Today is the one year anniversary of NY political leaders jointly urging New Yorkers to go on about their normal daily lives. Ride the subways, go to a movie etc cause as they said in the release this virus is very difficult to "pass to one another".
In fairness to Fauci and the rest of the task force, the initial 15 days to slow the spread message was largely in the context of making sure hospitals don't get overrun. I don't believe the goal of that timeline was 15 days of good behavior will wipe the virus from existence, unfortunately as things got politicized the goalposts of what that 15-30 day "lockdown" period was supposed to achieve got shifted.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 02, 2021, 09:53:50 AM
The initial message was also 2 weeks to flatten the curve.
People chose to remember what they want. For a lot of people, Fauci's credibility was shot then.
True enough. Either way, we have been forced into the unfortunate reality that current messaging is hampered by overly optimistic statements from the past.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Acosta/status/1234662406443241478
It's been strangely interesting and looking at the daily updates as each day in 2021 brings the "what happened a year ago today" pandemic timeline.
This quote of "I think he finally got it" from a pharmaceutical eXpeRT implying the idea of a vaccine being ready in less then a year is moronic and impossible was thankfully wrong.
It's troubling that the then-president willingly and admittedly lied to the public for months about the severity of a virus that he privately acknowledged was 5 times "more deadly than even your strenuous flus" while publicly saying it was just like the flu. But I seriously give him some slack for much of what he said in February and into March for the very reasons we're discussing now: The messaging by the supposed experts WAS all over the place.
I mean, Fauci and others WERE saying that masks not only were unnecessary but actually bad. They theoretically were doing it to protect the supply of masks for health-care workers, but it still wasn't true. Why should the then-president be blamed for saying similar things?
However, by mid-March into April, the messaging from the scientists changed quite significantly. Masks were being strongly recommended, as was social distancing and other mitigation efforts. And the then-president was mostly going along ... until mid-April when he got impatient and just chucked the entire thing. It didn't matter that he, himself, had laid out guidelines for re-opening; he simply said "screw it." And he started telling his followers to screw it, too.
That's where the dishonest, dangerous messaging became all his. "Damn the science! Full steam ahead!" It led to hundreds of thousands of Americans dying from COVID-19, and it ultimately led to him getting fired.
Quote from: MU82 on March 02, 2021, 11:52:39 AM
It's troubling that the then-president willingly and admittedly lied to the public for months about the severity of a virus that he privately acknowledged was 5 times "more deadly than even your strenuous flus" while publicly saying it was just like the flu. But I seriously give him some slack for much of what he said in February and into March for the very reasons we're discussing now: The messaging by the supposed experts WAS all over the place.
I mean, Fauci and others WERE saying that masks not only were unnecessary but actually bad. They theoretically were doing it to protect the supply of masks for health-care workers, but it still wasn't true. Why should the then-president be blamed for saying similar things?
However, by mid-March into April, the messaging from the scientists changed quite significantly. Masks were being strongly recommended, as was social distancing and other mitigation efforts. And the then-president was mostly going along ... until mid-April when he got impatient and just chucked the entire thing. It didn't matter that he, himself, had laid out guidelines for re-opening; he simply said "screw it." And he started telling his followers to screw it, too.
That's where the dishonest, dangerous messaging became all his. "Damn the science! Full steam ahead!" It led to hundreds of thousands of Americans dying from COVID-19, and it ultimately led to him getting fired.
Ya his messaging around masks was dumb, confusing and inconsistent.
But he often times encouraged the use of masks/face coverings and repeatedly said he has no problem with them but that it's simply not for him. In late March/early April he was criticized for encouraging people to use a scarf or other cloth covering on their face since hospitals needed the n95 and surgical masks saved for them. I agree in that his mask messaging was not great and cost us/him dearly but to say he said "f " it isn't exactly the case either.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/coronavirus-trumps-idea-to-use-scarf-is-unproven-doctors-say.html
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 02, 2021, 01:21:59 PM
Ya his messaging around masks was dumb, confusing and inconsistent.
But he often times encouraged the use of masks/face coverings and repeatedly said he has no problem with them but that it's simply not for him. In late March/early April he was criticized for encouraging people to use a scarf or other cloth covering on their face since hospitals needed the n95 and surgical masks saved for them. I agree in that his mask messaging was not great and cost us/him dearly but to say he said "f " it isn't exactly the case either.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/coronavirus-trumps-idea-to-use-scarf-is-unproven-doctors-say.html
On April 16, the then-president had the most presidential day of his term, calmly and thoroughly telling America about guidelines that states needed to reach to re-open.
Eighteen hours later, he encouraged thugs to storm several state capitols and "LIBERATE MINNESOTA! LIBERATE MICHIGAN! LIBERATE VIRGINIA!" even though not a single one of those states were anywhere near having met the guidelines that he, himself, had presented. (Fun fact: Many of the thugs who stormed the Michigan capitol at Trump's urging later tried to kidnap, torture and kill the governor.)
That was the beginning of the end. On April 29, Jared called the administration's response to the virus "a great success story." (Yes! Victory over COVID-19 was achieved by the noble Donald F. Trump! Only about 500K more Americans would die after that, thanks to his successful handling of the virus!)
From then on, it was one dereliction of duty after another. No-mask, no-social-distancing, super-spreader rallies that killed and/or hospitalized his own supporters (and himself) ... not only refusing to wear a mask himself but actually mocking those who did wear masks ... using racist names to describe the virus ... lies and more lies and more lies, etc.
It was more than a little bad messaging about masks, but if that's what you need to believe to feel good about your hero, that's cool.
Wow. Biden announcing there will be enough to vaccinate every adult by the end of May. Can't say I was expecting that.
Happy Summer!!
Quote from: MU82 on March 02, 2021, 03:56:58 PM
On April 16, the then-president had the most presidential day of his term, calmly and thoroughly telling America about guidelines that states needed to reach to re-open.
Eighteen hours later, he encouraged thugs to storm several state capitols and "LIBERATE MINNESOTA! LIBERATE MICHIGAN! LIBERATE VIRGINIA!" even though not a single one of those states were anywhere near having met the guidelines that he, himself, had presented. (Fun fact: Many of the thugs who stormed the Michigan capitol at Trump's urging later tried to kidnap, torture and kill the governor.)
That was the beginning of the end. On April 29, Jared called the administration's response to the virus "a great success story." (Yes! Victory over COVID-19 was achieved by the noble Donald F. Trump! Only about 500K more Americans would die after that, thanks to his successful handling of the virus!)
From then on, it was one dereliction of duty after another. No-mask, no-social-distancing, super-spreader rallies that killed and/or hospitalized his own supporters (and himself) ... not only refusing to wear a mask himself but actually mocking those who did wear masks ... using racist names to describe the virus ... lies and more lies and more lies, etc.
It was more than a little bad messaging about masks, but if that's what you need to believe to feel good about your hero, that's cool.
So if he tweeted "Liberate Michigan but remember keep 6ft of distance and wear your masks" he would have been fine?
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 02, 2021, 03:58:05 PM
Wow. Biden announcing there will be enough to vaccinate every adult by the end of May. Can't say I was expecting that.
Amazing news!!! So with states already opening up fully and able bodied adults who want a vaccine being able to get one in the next 60-90 days why in the hell are we trying to pass another 1.9 trillion worth of Covid aid? There are hundreds of billions left already unspent, reallocate those leftovers more appropriately and let's get the show on the road.
Dolly 'effin Parton is a national treasure.
https://twitter.com/DollyParton/status/1366866210852323328?s=20
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 02, 2021, 04:13:34 PM
Dolly 'effin Parton is a national treasure.
https://twitter.com/DollyParton/status/1366866210852323328?s=20
She's got a damn good plastic surgeon
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 02, 2021, 04:18:58 PM
She's got a damn good plastic surgeon
And she owns it too.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2019/09/03/dolly-parton-talks-plastic-surgery-i-wasnt-naturally-pretty/2196407001/
And a damn good voice.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 02, 2021, 04:12:41 PM
Amazing news!!! So with states already opening up fully and able bodied adults who want a vaccine being able to get one in the next 60-90 days why in the hell are we trying to pass another 1.9 trillion worth of Covid aid? There are hundreds of billions left already unspent, reallocate those leftovers more appropriately and let's get the show on the road.
There is an awful amount of back rent, bills, and lost jobs to recover from. Reopening doesn't just magically solve that.
Quote from: ZaLiN on March 02, 2021, 05:05:59 PM
There is an awful amount of back rent, bills, and lost jobs to recover from. Reopening doesn't just magically solve that.
Too bad that's not where Congress is targeting most of the 1.9 trillion.
Merck helping J&J. Talk about the art of the deal.
I liked reading about how many people worked here to make sure no vaccines went to waste after a freezer failure late at night:
https://www.king5.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/seattle-university-moderna-coronavirus-vaccine/281-901b8aa3-0c32-489b-a065-e1b276621d6e?fbclid=IwAR3VXlEeBjUsdSjQmv4ifEDE4tDZDmpEpMXm2s5pufXBu4Yijc3g1sxMyG0
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 02, 2021, 04:08:14 PM
So if he tweeted "Liberate Michigan but remember keep 6ft of distance and wear your masks" he would have been fine?
Exactly.
But maybe - probably not, but maybe - you'll stop saying his only failing regarding COVID-19 was his "messaging."
The way he handled it from mid-April on was a national disgrace and a national disaster.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 02, 2021, 04:33:22 PM
And she owns it too.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2019/09/03/dolly-parton-talks-plastic-surgery-i-wasnt-naturally-pretty/2196407001/
And a damn good voice.
Yeah, to able to sing like that at 73 is pretty amazing
Quote from: MU82 on March 02, 2021, 07:15:55 PM
Exactly.
But maybe - probably not, but maybe - you'll stop saying his only failing regarding COVID-19 was his "messaging."
The way he handled it from mid-April on was a national disgrace and a national disaster.
We were taking about masks so my comments were on his messaging around masks given the context of the conversation. Of course it wasn't his or the administrations only mistake but I think it was the most egregious. But to say their response was a national disaster is hyperbole, even for you amigo.
Fauci's boss just recently gave some glowing remarks on the accomplishments of operation warp speed.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 02, 2021, 03:58:05 PM
Wow. Biden announcing there will be enough to vaccinate every adult by the end of May. Can't say I was expecting that.
It's what competentcy looks like.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 02, 2021, 08:52:01 PM
It's what competentcy looks like.
Get da fuq outta here.
Droolin Joe didn't do a GD thing. "Why am I here?"
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 02, 2021, 10:10:50 PM
Get da fuq outta here.
Droolin Joe didn't do a GD thing. "Why am I here?"
I wonder what it's like to be so ignorant.
Quote from: BLM on March 02, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
I wonder what it's like to be so ignorant.
Mirror, brah. Mirror.
Quote from: BLM on March 02, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
I wonder what it's like to be so ignorant.
Not ignorant, reality-proofed. Observable reality doesn't stand a chance against the fantasy world they've constructed for themselves.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 02, 2021, 07:42:06 PM
We were taking about masks so my comments were on his messaging around masks given the context of the conversation. Of course it wasn't his or the administrations only mistake but I think it was the most egregious. But to say their response was a national disaster is hyperbole, even for you amigo.
More dead Americans than in all the wars combined since 1950. I'd hate to see what you consider a national disaster. Amigo.
Quote from: MU82 on March 02, 2021, 11:07:24 PM
More dead Americans than in all the wars combined since 1950. I'd hate to see what you consider a national disaster. Amigo.
Oh Covid is no doubt a national disaster, never questioned that. When a once in a lifetime pandemic hits death follows and over 20% of those deaths have happened on your boys watch after promising us he'd shut this virus down. The federal govt threw everything and the kitchen sink at this thing, some of it worked and some of it didn't.
You know as well as I there was little any elected official could do to slow this thing down anymore then we did.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 02, 2021, 11:01:18 PM
Not ignorant, reality-proofed. Observable reality doesn't stand a chance against the fantasy world they've constructed for themselves.
You 3 numbnuts, tell me exactly what Joe Biden has done to contribute to vaccine production and distribution. No whataboutisms, no name calling, no references to Trump. Just tell me exactly Joe Biden has done in 6 weeks to make this happen.
Put up or shut up.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
there was little any elected official could do to slow this thing down anymore then we did.
HAH!
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 02, 2021, 11:17:22 PM
You 3 numbnuts, tell me exactly what Joe Biden has done to contribute to vaccine production and distribution. No whataboutisms, no name calling, no references to Trump. Just tell me exactly Joe Biden has done in 6 weeks to make this happen.
Put up or shut up.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-merck-co-dpa/white-house-using-defense-production-act-to-equip-merck-plants-for-johnson-johnson-vaccine-idUSKCN2AU2AX?il=0
Here is one thing.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 02, 2021, 11:17:22 PM
You 3 numbnuts, tell me exactly what Joe Biden has done to contribute to vaccine production and distribution. No whataboutisms, no name calling, no references to Trump. Just tell me exactly Joe Biden has done in 6 weeks to make this happen.
Put up or shut up.
They used the defense production act to help Pfizer get equipment. Since Pfizer wasn't accepting money in OWS they weren't previously getting support
They worked with moderna to increase the vial size to Eliminate a manufacturing bottleneck.
They improved the dose forecasting and extended the window of the forecast so the states knew what to expect and could plan vaccinations with better certainty
They did the work to authorize pharmacy delivered vaccine and are supporting starting clinics
It's boring stuff and I guess you could argue none of it means anything...but it's hard to say they haven't done things to try to increase production or vaccines in arms.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 03, 2021, 05:15:43 AM
They used the defense production act to help Pfizer get equipment. Since Pfizer wasn't accepting money in OWS they weren't previously getting support
They worked with moderna to increase the vial size to Eliminate a manufacturing bottleneck.
They improved the dose forecasting and extended the window of the forecast so the states knew what to expect and could plan vaccinations with better certainty
They did the work to authorize pharmacy delivered vaccine and are supporting starting clinics
It's boring stuff and I guess you could argue none of it means anything...but it's hard to say they haven't done things to try to increase production or vaccines in arms.
I'll note that between these and the J&J/Merck agreement it has accelerated the timeline to deliver doses to the adult US population to be completed this summer, instead of the timeline under Trump policies of sometime in 2022.
That's kind of a big deal and will save 100's of thousands of lives.
Can't wait to hear this spin coming. I'd imagine we'll get silence instead though. To pretend the Biden administration has done absolutely nothing besides let things continue as they were to accelerate the timeline of getting past this pandemic is willful ignorance to the extreme.
You know they also bought more Pfizer and Moderna to cover the country. This put an end date on things and used J&J as an upside (pulling forward the full vaccination period). The strategy in the fall was to not contract more and use j&j to be the doses that get us to full vaccine.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
You know as well as I there was little any elected official could do to slow this thing down anymore then we did.
I do not know that at all, and neither do you if you're willing to finally be honest.
For starters, not only did the previous president fail to make things better, he personally contributed to the spreading of death and disease by insisting upon holding super-spreader events against the strong recommendation of his own science advisers. That's not "bad messaging." That's willful neglect - sacrificing Americans just so he could hear his worshipers chant his name.
Anybody who cares about facts could list a dozen or more examples of his ineptitude, selfishness and dishonesty contributing significantly to America having 4% of the world's population but 20% of its COVID-19 deaths. You simply prefer not to acknowledge what likely will go down in history as the biggest failure in the history of the presidency.
Thank goodness we now have a president who doesn't simply shrug and say, "They are dying. That's true. It is what it is."
As I said two 6 weeks ago, 100 million in a hundred days was the base. Will far exceed that.
Quote from: forgetful on March 03, 2021, 06:17:55 AM
I'll note that between these and the J&J/Merck agreement it has accelerated the timeline to deliver doses to the adult US population to be completed this summer, instead of the timeline under Trump policies of sometime in 2022.
That's kind of a big deal and will save 100's of thousands of lives.
Psaki admitted yesterday after being called out by the media for taking credit for something they didn't have much involvement with Merck/j&j news.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 03, 2021, 05:15:43 AM
They used the defense production act to help Pfizer get equipment. Since Pfizer wasn't accepting money in OWS they weren't previously getting support
They worked with moderna to increase the vial size to Eliminate a manufacturing bottleneck.
They improved the dose forecasting and extended the window of the forecast so the states knew what to expect and could plan vaccinations with better certainty
They did the work to authorize pharmacy delivered vaccine and are supporting starting clinics
It's boring stuff and I guess you could argue none of it means anything...but it's hard to say they haven't done things to try to increase production or vaccines in arms.
To add:
-- They've used FEMA to set up vaccination centers, leasing the needed sites and equipment, provide doses, provide PPE, provide training, provide logistics, and provide personnel to community centers to increase vaccinations
-- They are reimbursing local authorities for using the National Guard to speed up distribution
-- They are working directly with retailers (CVS, Walgreens) to speed up vaccination rate
-- They've almost doubled the rate vaccine production
-- As noted above, states now have insight in advance on how many doses to expect so that they can optimize distribution.
The Trump admin philosophy was that their responsibility ended at getting the drugs approved and thereafter all the responsibility fell on the states and jurisdictions, which meant 58 different ways to do things, all uncoordinated with the supply.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 03, 2021, 07:33:52 AM
To add:
-- They've used FEMA to set up vaccination centers, leasing the needed sites and equipment, provide doses, provide PPE, provide training, provide logistics, and provide personnel to community centers to increase vaccinations
-- They are reimbursing local authorities for using the National Guard to speed up distribution
-- They are working directly with retailers (CVS, Walgreens) to speed up vaccination rate
-- They've almost doubled the rate vaccine production
-- As noted above, states now have insight in advance on how many doses to expect so that they can optimize distribution.
The Trump admin philosophy was that their responsibility ended at getting the drugs approved and thereafter all the responsibility fell on the states and jurisdictions, which meant 58 different ways to do things, all uncoordinated with the supply.
Slurp slurp
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 03, 2021, 07:30:44 AM
Psaki admitted yesterday after being called out by the media for taking credit for something they didn't have much involvement with Merck/j&j news.
Actually, she didn't ... and you forgot to include the Fox News link.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/psaki-biden-trump-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-merck
After Psaki acknowledged JNJ and MRK had been planning the partnership earlier, she then outlined how the Biden Administration helped move it along. Her explanation went unchallenged by the Fox News reporter, who surely would have found a way to belittle it if he had grounds to do so.
Joe Biden Botches Democrats' Names, Asks 'What Am I Doing Here?'
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 02, 2021, 11:17:22 PM
You 3 numbnuts, tell me exactly what Joe Biden has done to contribute to vaccine production and distribution. No whataboutisms, no name calling, no references to Trump. Just tell me exactly Joe Biden has done in 6 weeks to make this happen.
Put up or shut up.
It's particularly awesome that we "numbnuts" are required to prove it with "no name calling".
Quote from: MU82 on March 03, 2021, 07:39:09 AM
Actually, she didn't ... and you forgot to include the Fox News link.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/psaki-biden-trump-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-merck
After Psaki acknowledged JNJ and MRK had been planning the partnership earlier, she then outlined how the Biden Administration helped move it along. Her explanation went unchallenged by the Fox News reporter, who surely would have found a way to belittle it if he had grounds to do so.
She tried to spin her way out of it but it's obvious to anyone without a 100% partisan view to the timeline of that partnership.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 03, 2021, 05:15:43 AM
They used the defense production act to help Pfizer get equipment. Since Pfizer wasn't accepting money in OWS they weren't previously getting support
They worked with moderna to increase the vial size to Eliminate a manufacturing bottleneck.
They improved the dose forecasting and extended the window of the forecast so the states knew what to expect and could plan vaccinations with better certainty
They did the work to authorize pharmacy delivered vaccine and are supporting starting clinics
It's boring stuff and I guess you could argue none of it means anything...but it's hard to say they haven't done things to try to increase production or vaccines in arms.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 03, 2021, 07:33:52 AM
To add:
-- They've used FEMA to set up vaccination centers, leasing the needed sites and equipment, provide doses, provide PPE, provide training, provide logistics, and provide personnel to community centers to increase vaccinations
-- They are reimbursing local authorities for using the National Guard to speed up distribution
-- They are working directly with retailers (CVS, Walgreens) to speed up vaccination rate
-- They've almost doubled the rate vaccine production
-- As noted above, states now have insight in advance on how many doses to expect so that they can optimize distribution.
The Trump admin philosophy was that their responsibility ended at getting the drugs approved and thereafter all the responsibility fell on the states and jurisdictions, which meant 58 different ways to do things, all uncoordinated with the supply.
Kinda hilarious that Ziggy tells people to "put up or shut up" and then just disappears when people actually accept his challenge.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 03, 2021, 07:43:22 AM
Joe Biden Botches Democrats' Names, Asks 'What Am I Doing Here?'
Biden's been botching names for years.
Honestly if that's all ya got, why do you even try?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 03, 2021, 08:18:03 AM
Biden's been botching names for years.
Honestly if that's all ya got, why do you even try?
My favorite Trump ones were him calling Nepal, "Nipple," and Bhutan, "Button,".
Speaking of vaccines....
Some good news and bad news from the most recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll on the willingness of American adults to voluntarily get a Covid vaccine. Good news: more people are ready to get it asap. Bad news: 22% still say they won't get it at all, or will get it only if mandated by the gubmint.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-february-2021/
Good to see the numbers trending upward, but we still need them to get higher if we want to be fairly certain to achieve herd immunity.
NM
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2021, 08:55:17 AM
Speaking of vaccines....
Some good news and bad news from the most recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll on the willingness of American adults to voluntarily get a Covid vaccine. Good news: more people are ready to get it asap. Bad news: 22% still say they won't get it at all, or will get it only if mandated by the gubmint.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-february-2021/
Good to see the numbers trending upward, but we still need them to get higher if we want to be fairly certain to achieve herd immunity.
If by the end of May you're an able bodied adult who willingly chose not to get one of the vaccines then any illness or death that comes from it is something they'll need to reconcile with. You can lead a horse to water.....
Come June 1 every state should announce they're back to a full reopening, any delay beyond that is nothing more then gubmint trying to keep their boots on the throats of us little guys.
Quote from: forgetful on March 03, 2021, 08:44:25 AM
My favorite Trump ones were him calling Nepal, "Nipple," and Bhutan, "Button,".
Don't forget key executives Tim Apple and Marillyn Lockheed.
With so many speaking opportunities, and eye balls, people are going to make mistakes and others will jump on them. I don't know that it's the biggest thing to get worked up about.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 03, 2021, 09:03:47 AM
If by the end of May you're an able bodied adult who willingly chose not to get one of the vaccines then any illness or death that comes from it is something they'll need to reconcile with. You can lead a horse to water.....
Come June 1 every state should announce they're back to a full reopening, any delay beyond that is nothing more then gubmint trying to keep their boots on the throats of us little guys.
I agree. I guess the only thing is are we expecting people to be fully vaccinated by May 31? Or we will just have enough doses? My guess is from a logistics perspective the full vaccination might still go into June or July.
Quote from: forgetful on March 03, 2021, 08:44:25 AM
My favorite Trump ones were him calling Nepal, "Nipple," and Bhutan, "Button,".
I still like Covfefe
I like 'I won'.
I don't understand why we can't acknowledge neither is exactly a gaff free genius. I prefer Biden, but his history filled with senile moments. So is Trump's so it's pointless to bring it up acting like your guy never had them (4ever)
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 03, 2021, 07:49:54 AM
She tried to spin her way out of it but it's obvious to anyone without a 100% partisan view to the timeline of that partnership.
You've been trying to spin your way out of holding 45 accountable for nearly a year now. It's obvious to anyone without a 100% partisan view that his response to the pandemic was actually worse than mere failure, as he personally contributed to Americans dying and getting severely ill.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 03, 2021, 09:03:47 AM
If by the end of May you're an able bodied adult who willingly chose not to get one of the vaccines then any illness or death that comes from it is something they'll need to reconcile with. You can lead a horse to water.....
Come June 1 every state should announce they're back to a full reopening, any delay beyond that is nothing more then gubmint trying to keep their boots on the throats of us little guys.
That would be great, except for two things:
1. This doesn't account for the fact that kids under 16 still can't be vaccinated, so it will likely take several more months to get them vaccinated. (And yes I understand that they generally don't get severe disease, but we down to point number two before you jump to unwarranted conclusions); and
2. Continued spread of the virus (whether among kids or among adults who have chosen not to get vaccinated) can lead to vaccine-resistant variants. And if they keep evolving, some of those variants could come back to infect and possibly kill those of us who will choose to get the vaccine when we can.
As a result, it is an overly simplistic (and scientifically unsupported) view to assume that any risk after June 1 will applies only to adults who have voluntarily chosen not to get vaccinated.
I am definitely not a Trump guy, but I think he deserves some credit for clearing the way so that companies could fast track these vaccines. That said, I am surprised at the number of people that say they won't take the vaccine because it wasn't tested enough or some other skeptical reason. Most of them seem to be Trumpers. So one of the good things Trump does is being ignored by his followers and worse, lies are being spread about the vaccines.
Can someone explain that to me? I just don't get Trumpers I guess.
Trump was vaccinated in secret before he left the White House. His VP got a public vaccination. Other politicians got vaccinated publicly.
Trump got it secretly so as not to disturb the narrative of his base.
Quote from: SERocks on March 03, 2021, 09:34:23 AM
I am definitely not a Trump guy, but I think he deserves some credit for clearing the way so that companies could fast track these vaccines. That said, I am surprised at the number of people that say they won't take the vaccine because it wasn't tested enough or some other skeptical reason. Most of them seem to be Trumpers. So one of the good things Trump does is being ignored by his followers and worse, lies are being spread about the vaccines.
Can someone explain that to me? I just don't get Trumpers I guess.
Two efforts in particular that occurred in his administration...
- NIH designed the Moderna vaccine within days of the sequencing of the virus. Moderna is just the contract mfg/partner for a GOVT designed vaccine. They made a big bet on targeting the spike. It's a fascinating story.
- Accelerating the testing protocols was really well done. Plus the studies were designed really well with Pfizer and Moderna (and now J&J). Just seeing the alternative muddiness with AZ/Oxford shows this was executed well.
The thing that nags at me with OWS is that the whole idea wasn't to accelerate the science (that was done)....it was to lower the risk/cost of failure in trial, speed the approval process and speed production. I think they succeeded in 1 & 2...I really think the joint military and health expert effort on production seemed lacking. Why doesn't JNJ have 30M doses by now (made up number) if we guaranteed dose purchases? Finally, ignoring the dose in arm aspect of the process could have definitely been better--you cant just drop things off at shipment.
Quote from: SERocks on March 03, 2021, 09:34:23 AM
I am definitely not a Trump guy, but I think he deserves some credit for clearing the way so that companies could fast track these vaccines. That said, I am surprised at the number of people that say they won't take the vaccine because it wasn't tested enough or some other skeptical reason. Most of them seem to be Trumpers. So one of the good things Trump does is being ignored by his followers and worse, lies are being spread about the vaccines.
Can someone explain that to me? I just don't get Trumpers I guess.
People are stupid, and stubborn. And for me, it isn't just Trumpers that are refusing the vaccine, there are a bunch of people who I know personally who are not getting it. And they're stupid. They're the same people who smoke and then try to tell me they only eat organic food because 'food is filled with chemicals'. They tell me GMO food is all bad and made in a lab. They're the same people who stare at the stars and believe in astrology and crystals. They're s same people who wear gloves all day long... even after I've explained that they only need to wash their hands and use hand sanitizer when they can't wash. They're kooks. They barely have their lives together, and believe what they hear in their echo chambers. And they're definitely not all Trumpers.
Social media has absolutely led us down this path.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2021, 09:31:42 AM
That would be great, except for two things:
1. This doesn't account for the fact that kids under 16 still can't be vaccinated, so it will likely take several more months to get them vaccinated. (And yes I understand that they generally don't get severe disease, but we down to point number two before you jump to unwarranted conclusions); and
2. Continued spread of the virus (whether among kids or among adults who have chosen not to get vaccinated) can lead to vaccine-resistant variants. And if they keep evolving, some of those variants could come back to infect and possibly kill those of us who will choose to get the vaccine when we can.
As a result, it is an overly simplistic (and scientifically unsupported) view to assume that any risk after June 1 will applies only to adults who have voluntarily chosen not to get vaccinated.
The idea of returning to normal cannot be viewed through the sole lens of Covid science. The science of mental health needs to be weighed as well and plenty of documentation shows those mental health risks will outweigh the risks you laid out above come June 1.
There is no risk free return to normal but imo come summer it's time.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 03, 2021, 08:17:10 AM
Kinda hilarious that Ziggy tells people to "put up or shut up" and then just disappears when people actually accept his challenge.
Some people sleep and actually work, but yeah, I disappeared. ::)
Quote from: forgetful on March 03, 2021, 08:44:25 AM
My favorite Trump ones were him calling Nepal, "Nipple," and Bhutan, "Button,".
Thighland. And when he made up the country of Nambia.
heh
https://twitter.com/JuliaLMarcus/status/1367159066531880961?s=20
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 03, 2021, 10:17:25 AM
The idea of returning to normal cannot be viewed through the sole lens of Covid science. The science of mental health needs to be weighed as well and plenty of documentation shows those mental health risks will outweigh the risks you laid out above come June 1.
There is no risk free return to normal but imo come summer it's time.
True. But you called for a "
full reopening" in "
every state." That's pretty absolute for someone who wants to
weigh Covid science against mental health.
I would submit that if you truly want to
balance Covid science and mental health, you will likely come to an answer somewhere in between. Maybe some states can reopen everything completely. Or maybe the best balance would include mask mandates for indoor gatherings above a certain threshold, but no masks outside.
We never totally shut things down because of Covid; I would submit that while Covid is still widely circulating and mutating, and before most kids get vaccinated, we probably shouldn't totally open them up either.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 03, 2021, 12:21:18 PM
heh
https://twitter.com/JuliaLMarcus/status/1367159066531880961?s=20
Not what I had in mind when they said the shot might cause swelling.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 03, 2021, 12:21:18 PM
heh
https://twitter.com/JuliaLMarcus/status/1367159066531880961?s=20
Twitter reply: Nice Johnson (& Johnson)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2021, 01:36:31 PM
True. But you called for a "full reopening" in "every state." That's pretty absolute for someone who wants to weigh Covid science against mental health.
I would submit that if you truly want to balance Covid science and mental health, you will likely come to an answer somewhere in between. Maybe some states can reopen everything completely. Or maybe the best balance would include mask mandates for indoor gatherings above a certain threshold, but no masks outside.
We never totally shut things down because of Covid; I would submit that while Covid is still widely circulating and mutating, and before most kids get vaccinated, we probably shouldn't totally open them up either.
Ya my my full throated support of a complete reopening might have been a little reactionary to all the hood news of the week. I think mask requirements are good for awhile yet especially if that means gathering restrictions are lifted.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 03, 2021, 09:56:43 AM
People are stupid, and stubborn. And for me, it isn't just Trumpers that are refusing the vaccine, there are a bunch of people who I know personally who are not getting it. And they're stupid. They're the same people who smoke and then try to tell me they only eat organic food because 'food is filled with chemicals'. They tell me GMO food is all bad and made in a lab. They're the same people who stare at the stars and believe in astrology and crystals. They're s same people who wear gloves all day long... even after I've explained that they only need to wash their hands and use hand sanitizer when they can't wash. They're kooks. They barely have their lives together, and believe what they hear in their echo chambers. And they're definitely not all Trumpers.
Social media has absolutely led us down this path.
For sure. Hell the majority of "anti-vaxxers" I've encountered are super liberal looney tunes who have very little in common philosophically with Trumpers. Idiots come in all forms and ideologies
Quote from: JWags85 on March 03, 2021, 05:49:40 PM
For sure. Hell the majority of "anti-vaxxers" I've encountered are super liberal looney tunes who have very little in common philosophically with Trumpers. Idiots come in all forms and ideologies
+1 they're either super religious right or super hippie far left au natural in my experience
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 03, 2021, 06:00:58 PM
+1 they're either super religious right or super hippie far left au natural in my experience
This is a nice story, and we all know the types. But it doesn't match up with the actual numbers.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-february-2021/
QuoteThe Monitor also reports changes in vaccine enthusiasm across partisans, with large gaps in enthusiasm remaining between groups. Between December and February, there was a large increase in the share of Democrats who report being vaccinated or wanting to do so as soon as possible (from 47% to 75%) and a more modest increase among Republicans (from 28% to 41%). A substantial share of Republicans remain more resistant to getting vaccinated, with 28% saying they will "definitely not" get the shot.
FWIW Definitely not Dems are at 2% and Independents at 18% .
Here's a weird one: I was talking with a physician's assistant today, and during the course of the conversation I sensed she was concerned about the vaccine.
me: So you are thinking about not getting the vaccine?
her: I'm not sure yet
me: why is that?
her: Because 7 of the 10 people I know that got the vaccine got Bell's Palsy
i wasn't quite sure how to respond to that one so I just sort of floated on to a different discussion...
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 03, 2021, 06:56:01 PM
Here's a weird one: I was talking with a physician's assistant today, and during the course of the conversation I sensed she was concerned about the vaccine.
me: So you are thinking about not getting the vaccine?
her: I'm not sure yet
me: why is that?
her: Because 7 of the 10 people I know that got the vaccine got Bell's Palsy
i wasn't quite sure how to respond to that one so I just sort of floated on to a different discussion...
Interesting. According to CDC, Bell's Palsy does not occur after the vaccine at a rate any higher than just expected in the normal course of events.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/underlying-conditions.html
Cases of Bell's palsy were reported in participants in the mRNA COVID-19 vaccine clinical trials. However, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not consider these to be above the rate expected in the general population. Since the 'normal' annual incidence in the US is estimated to be 15-30 per 100,000, your PA seems to know a pretty atypical group of people.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 03, 2021, 09:50:40 AM
Two efforts in particular that occurred in his administration...
- NIH designed the Moderna vaccine within days of the sequencing of the virus. Moderna is just the contract mfg/partner for a GOVT designed vaccine. They made a big bet on targeting the spike. It's a fascinating story.
- Accelerating the testing protocols was really well done. Plus the studies were designed really well with Pfizer and Moderna (and now J&J). Just seeing the alternative muddiness with AZ/Oxford shows this was executed well.
The thing that nags at me with OWS is that the whole idea wasn't to accelerate the science (that was done)....it was to lower the risk/cost of failure in trial, speed the approval process and speed production. I think they succeeded in 1 & 2...I really think the joint military and health expert effort on production seemed lacking. Why doesn't JNJ have 30M doses by now (made up number) if we guaranteed dose purchases? Finally, ignoring the dose in arm aspect of the process could have definitely been better--you cant just drop things off at shipment.
The bolded aren't entirely true. Curious as to the source of that. The mRNA vaccines were based on about 17 years of data studying SARS and MERS vaccines. They already knew the optimal part of the Spike protein, and which adjuvants would lead to strong and proper immune responses. It really was not a big bet targeting the RBD domain of the Spike protein, which is why pretty much everyone did the same. They did so, because of 17 years of research including clinical trials of both SARS and MERS candidates (this is also why the timeline was so much faster). But yes, technically the NIH designed the mRNA construct that Moderna used, but honestly that was the easy part. Its something your average molecular biologist can do on their own...the formulation/packaging of that mRNA is more challenging (that was the big role of Moderna and BioNtech).
And Moderna is much more than a "contract" partner. They have been actively working on a MERS vaccine for a couple years, and developed these mRNA platforms. It was partnered with the US government as part of an original focus on new vaccine technology under Bush, and expanded under Obama, but to call it a GOVT designed vaccine, is a bit inaccurate. I've said it on here before, but if you really want to give a president credit for the vaccines, that should go to Bush.
The big place where the former administration did things right, was what you mention in the 2nd (non-bolded) paragraph. They ensured that the costs of the trials would be covered by guaranteed purchases. That let the pharmaceutical companies take the risk of concurrent phase 1/2 trials, and accelerated transition into phase 3.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 03, 2021, 06:56:01 PM
Here's a weird one: I was talking with a physician's assistant physician assistant today, and during the course of the conversation I sensed she was concerned about the vaccine.
me: So you are thinking about not getting the vaccine?
her: I'm not sure yet
me: why is that?
her: Because 7 of the 10 people I know that got the vaccine got Bell's Palsy
i wasn't quite sure how to respond to that one so I just sort of floated on to a different discussion...
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 03, 2021, 07:09:29 PM
Since the 'normal' annual incidence in the US is estimated to be 15-30 per 100,000, your PA seems to know a pretty atypical group of people.
Right...unless they are all related and have a genetic pre-disposition? (I don't even know if that is a thing with Bell's). Didn't seem appropriate to really ask more questions, but struck me as highly, highly unlikely in any normal distribution.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 03, 2021, 09:14:41 PM
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Ha ha, point taken.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 03, 2021, 09:34:06 PM
Right...unless they are all related and have a genetic pre-disposition? (I don't even know if that is a thing with Bell's). Didn't seem appropriate to really ask more questions, but struck me as highly, highly unlikely in any normal distribution.
This one boils my blood a little bit. I've heard the same thing repeated, and its from a news story from months ago written by someone who doesn't understand how data is reported. Goooo is right as usual, the incidence is the same as it would be in a group of the general public that hadn't taken the vaccine, but you know... people don't read everything, and when stupidity is put out there like this, people pick up on it, and it goes viral faster than the truth can come out.
PSA .. interesting website for finding open vaccination appointments across the US:
https://www.vaccinespotter.org
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 04, 2021, 08:30:20 AM
PSA .. interesting website for finding open vaccination appointments across the US:
https://www.vaccinespotter.org
Yeah my guess is that this is going to cause more issues than anything. The last thing the Walgreens in Beloit needs is a bunch of people from across the state calling them saying that they saw they had an opening, when it is my understanding you can't register over the phone anyway.
Locally the stories I have heard is that the local health system's process is very smooth...and the Walgreens is lacking.
Walgreens had a huge nationwide glitch starting Sunday. Their platform is not user-friendly.
I got my second Moderna at Walgreens yesterday. So far other than some soreness at the site, I am doing okay.
As an aside .. my health dept (6 communities) .. their shot signup is via Signup Genius.
Very high tech. /s
Second shot scheduled. Max antibodies.
Need the Vaccine?
Florida Man.
Former Illinois Governor.
$250k.
https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article249666463.html?__twitter_impression=true
Props to Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds for getting the J&J vaccine at her press conference.
I have been a vocal critic of Reynolds and many other governors - mostly Republicans - who have not taken adequate steps to limit the spread of the virus. But I will give credit where credit is due; she has heard about people's reluctance to take the 'less effective' J&J vaccine, and wanted to allay those concerns by taking it herself. Kudos.
https://www.kcci.com/article/iowa-gov-kim-reynolds-receives-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine/35713906#
I would happily take the JNJ vaccine ... or any vaccine. Please.
Nads, pretty sure someone on this board would be happy to accommodate you with a virtual vaccination, if you were to drop your drawers and bend over, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on March 04, 2021, 10:39:37 AM
I would happily take the JNJ vaccine ... or any vaccine. Please.
http://getmyvaccine.org/
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 04, 2021, 09:49:03 AM
Props to Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds for getting the J&J vaccine at her press conference.
I have been a vocal critic of Reynolds and many other governors - mostly Republicans - who have not taken adequate steps to limit the spread of the virus. But I will give credit where credit is due; she has heard about people's reluctance to take the 'less effective' J&J vaccine, and wanted to allay those concerns by taking it herself. Kudos.
https://www.kcci.com/article/iowa-gov-kim-reynolds-receives-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine/35713906#
I will take whatever Covid vaccine I can get. But since I'm not in a priority group I feel like I'm going to have to wait quite awhile yet...
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 02, 2021, 11:17:22 PM
You 3 numbnuts, tell me exactly what Joe Biden has done to contribute to vaccine production and distribution. No whataboutisms, no name calling, no references to Trump. Just tell me exactly Joe Biden has done in 6 weeks to make this happen.
Put up or shut up.
I've been waiting breathlessly on whether we numbnuts need to shut up, or whether you accept reality. Can I get a ruling?
While I wait, here is a link about the 441 Federally supported vaccination centers the new administration has supported in its first month:https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/02/26/fact-sheet-441-federally-supported-community-vaccination-centers-in-first-month-of-biden-harris-administration/
And here is a story about on the FEMA supersites, this one in Philadelphia:https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/vaccine-philadelphia-fema-clinic-mass-site-federal-20210303.html
47,000 doses a week at this center alone--not bad!
Here is one about a couple of the sites in California: https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/us/california-fema-mass-vaccination-sites/index.html
And here is one about a site in Texas that will be administering its 100,000th dose today:
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/denton-county-to-administer-100000th-covid-19-vaccination-at-texas-motor-speedway-thursday/2570263/
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 04, 2021, 10:44:21 AM
Nads, pretty sure someone on this board would be happy to accommodate you with a virtual vaccination, if you were to drop your drawers and bend over, hey?
Ah, we're doing homophobic jokes now.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 04, 2021, 12:43:58 PM
Ah, we're doing homophobic jokes now.
Cancel culture ruins everything, hey?
Quote from: Marquette Fan on March 04, 2021, 11:05:25 AM
I will take whatever Covid vaccine I can get. But since I'm not in a priority group I feel like I'm going to have to wait quite awhile yet...
Ditto. Even with accelerating production and the third option, I suspect my number won't come up until May.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 04, 2021, 10:52:30 AM
http://getmyvaccine.org/
Thanks. Already been on that.
I just found out that SC on Monday is gonna start vaccinations for folks in the 55-64 group, and I live pretty close to the border. So hopefully I'll get an appointment fairly soon.
I'm not trying to jump any queues. Just want a vaccine as soon as it's my turn!
No residency requirements in SC?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 04, 2021, 12:52:32 PM
Ditto. Even with accelerating production and the third option, I suspect my number won't come up until May.
I wasn't sure I'd even be able to get a vaccine until the end of the summer. I'm not feeling real good about how distribution is going in Wisconsin especially in my county.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 04, 2021, 08:44:20 AM
Yeah my guess is that this is going to cause more issues than anything. The last thing the Walgreens in Beloit needs is a bunch of people from across the state calling them saying that they saw they had an opening, when it is my understanding you can't register over the phone anyway.
Locally the stories I have heard is that the local health system's process is very smooth...and the Walgreens is lacking.
In my area, the local health department decided to cancel all the educator appointments for this week even though they're eligible (they wanted to get more 65+ people vaccinated first). But Walgreens was more than willing to accomodate the educators who are eligible so most teachers I know of had made appointments for Walgreens now.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 04, 2021, 03:36:51 PM
No residency requirements in SC?
Not according to the SC dept of health official I spoke to today.
Ok that's interesting.
Thursday the United Center site opening Ed its registration for appointments starting next week. From Thursday until Sunday seniors 65+ get first crack, clearly stated on the zocdoc portal on the appointment availability page. I saw reports earlier on the Chicago Vaccine Hunters FB page of people making appointments whether they were 65 or not, or recommending it to people not in that tier.
The good news is, zocdoc has started cancelling those appointments. It was clearly stated that if you reserved without being 65 your appointment could get cancelled.
BTW if you dare bring up that people were supposed to wait, you are practically accused of wanting them dead.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on March 04, 2021, 08:25:12 PM
I wasn't sure I'd even be able to get a vaccine until the end of the summer. I'm not feeling real good about how distribution is going in Wisconsin especially in my county.
We are at over 2 million doses per day nationally. And Wisconsin is doing quite well compared to the rest of the US, I think you'll be fine by the end of May.
Yesterday in the Chicago Vaccine Hunters group a poster reported that her anti-vaxx relative is part of a group of anti-vaxxers who make appointments and then no show in hopes that the dose will need to be thrown out. They believe they are on a mission from God.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 05, 2021, 09:23:22 AM
Yesterday in the Chicago Vaccine Hunters group a poster reported that her anti-vaxx relative is part of a group of anti-vaxxers who make appointments and then no show in hopes that the dose will need to be thrown out. They believe they are on a mission from God.
That's f*cked up
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 05, 2021, 06:03:29 AM
We are at over 2 million doses per day nationally. And Wisconsin is doing quite well compared to the rest of the US, I think you'll be fine by the end of May.
And if someone is super concerned about the whole thing but not considered high risk you can still easily setup an appointment at Walgreens and get the shot. No one is checking a paystub or employment verification to make sure you're 1A or 1B and with supply ramping up I also don't think you need to beat yourself up over "skipping to the head of the line".
The last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for a lot of folks and if anyone who falls into that category can be put at ease, I say go right ahead and get to the front of the line.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 05, 2021, 10:31:06 AM
And if someone is super concerned about the whole thing but not considered high risk you can still easily setup an appointment at Walgreens and get the shot. No one is checking a paystub or employment verification to make sure you're 1A or 1B and with supply ramping up I also don't think you need to beat yourself up over "skipping to the head of the line".
The last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for a lot of folks and if anyone who falls into that category can be put at ease, I say go right ahead and get to the front of the line.
I am not opposed to people who have unmanageable anxiety regarding the virus being moved towards the front.
Sorry but seeing the pleas for help on the FB page from seniors and really ill people trying to get shots scheduled, I can't agree. The supply is ramping up considerably and it won't be long before the rest can get their shots. And then there's the problem if the homebound and less mobile people. Many seniors would rather go to Walgreens where they live and they can't get appointments because younger people are grabbing them.
Book as soon as you are eligible, but not before.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 05, 2021, 11:15:12 AM
Sorry but seeing the pleas for help on the FB page from seniors and really ill people trying to get shots scheduled, I can't agree. The supply is ramping up considerably and it won't be long before the rest can get their shots. And then there's the problem if the homebound and less mobile people. Many seniors would rather go to Walgreens where they live and they can't get appointments because younger people are grabbing them.
Book as soon as you are eligible, but not before.
Right. Don't be selfish. There is a logic behind the guidelines. Follow them even if you don't agree with them.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2021, 11:23:05 AM
Right. Don't be selfish. There is a logic behind the guidelines. Follow them even if you don't agree with them.
Overall I agree with this and I'm considered a 1A employee but have yet to get in line for one cause I'm not high risk and for the reasons mentioned above. With that said I would certainly have some grace if someone decided to skip the line because of the anxiety this has caused, that's all.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2021, 11:23:05 AM
Right. Don't be selfish. There is a logic behind the guidelines. Follow them even if you don't agree with them.
Agree but the guidelines are a little blurry. They have no one but themselves to blame that everyone's who ever smoked a cigarette now feels they're eligible.
Should have stuck with clearly defined Age brackets and career eligibility. And let doctors independently recommend people with severe illnesses, cancer recovery patients etc.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 05, 2021, 11:43:24 AM
Agree but the guidelines are a little blurry. They have no one but themselves to blame that everyone's who ever smoked a cigarette now feels they're eligible.
Should have stuck with clearly defined Age brackets and career eligibility. And let doctors independently recommend people with severe illnesses, cancer recovery patients etc.
In Wisconsin I don't believe people with comorbidities under the age of 65 are eligible. So if the only "qualification" someone has to be eligible to receive the vaccine earlier is they are a smoker, they would not currently be eligible.
Quote from: BLM on March 05, 2021, 11:44:50 AM
In Wisconsin I don't believe people with comorbidities under the age of 65 are eligible. So if the only "qualification" someone has to be eligible to receive the vaccine earlier is they are a smoker, they would not currently be eligible.
Based on type employment plenty of people under the age of 65 in Wisconsin are eligible who are healthy as horses.
I do agree that the guidelines are blurry, depending on the state. I know on one of these threads we talked about the need for simplicity. Illinois right now frankly is just way too complicated, and I've generally been on board with Pritzker's decisions.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 05, 2021, 11:43:24 AM
Agree but the guidelines are a little blurry. They have no one but themselves to blame that everyone's who ever smoked a cigarette now feels they're eligible.
Should have stuck with clearly defined Age brackets and career eligibility. And let doctors independently recommend people with severe illnesses, cancer recovery patients etc.
The guidelines are blurry intentionally. And Pace isn't talking about people saying "I'm not sure if I qualify." He is talking about people skipping ahead because they are "anxious."
The guidelines were put in place so as to not overwhelm the system and give some sense of logical prioritization.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 05, 2021, 11:47:54 AM
Based on type employment plenty of people under the age of 65 in Wisconsin are eligible who are healthy as horses.
Right. But not based on comorbidities (being a smoker).
Also, I'm fine with smoking being considered a comorbidity. Those people are at higher risk. Yes, they did that to themselves. But they didn't know they would also be facing a pandemic at some point in their lifetime and that smoking would make the health risks they are already taking even worse. It's not that much different than SOME of the people who are obese being so because of their choice to eat certain foods and to not exercise (while realizing that some obese people have at least attempted to live a healthier lifestyle and got the short end of the genetic stick).
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 05, 2021, 10:31:06 AM
And if someone is super concerned about the whole thing but not considered high risk you can still easily setup an appointment at Walgreens and get the shot. No one is checking a paystub or employment verification to make sure you're 1A or 1B and with supply ramping up I also don't think you need to beat yourself up over "skipping to the head of the line".
The last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for a lot of folks and if anyone who falls into that category can be put at ease, I say go right ahead and get to the front of the line.
Walgreens and CVS have had very limited availability in their locations. Many states that have Walgreens and CVS have not yet had vaccines available.
Still a ways to go for pharmacy availability.
I sort of smoked from fall 2014- 2015. (MUBB you did this to me!) does that make me qualify? See what I mean? Almost everybody can look back and say "well I used to smoke when I was drunk" "I've been to a bunch of hookah bars" "I've smoked crack" but it's wayyy too blurry.
I'm all for the honors system and can't speak for Wiscon's system but when they see a massive influx of people coming in saying they qualify it's their own fault.
Another example at last here in Illinois is construction being 1c. Cant wait to see how many people who've done 1 job in their life show up.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 05, 2021, 10:31:06 AM
And if someone is super concerned about the whole thing but not considered high risk you can still easily setup an appointment at Walgreens and get the shot. No one is checking a paystub or employment verification to make sure you're 1A or 1B and with supply ramping up I also don't think you need to beat yourself up over "skipping to the head of the line".
The last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for a lot of folks and if anyone who falls into that category can be put at ease, I say go right ahead and get to the front of the line.
As someone who set up a shot at Walgreens, they absolutely DO check if you are 1A or 1B or lower.
Secondly, it is not easy to set up an appointment. They have no guaranteed flow of the vaccine. As a matter of fact, they don't even know what version of the vaccine they will be getting each week. That is why you are automatically set up for the 2nd shot in 4 weeks (Moderna has a 4 week waiting time) - even though Pfizer (which is what I got recommends 3 weeks.
Walgreens stores find out Monday morning how many doses they will get. They then post it online to sign up. Generally, if you don't sign up on Monday or on Tuesday morning, there is no availability.
Of course I am only speaking of Racine, but have been told that this is the process for all Walgreens. Hopefully, with more availability of the vaccine, this process will improve.
What you have been told about Walgreens is the process many places use. Mostly because they don't want to cancel appointments.
Your best chance at appointments I have been told is to look them up Monday evenings.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 05, 2021, 12:42:12 PM
I sort of smoked from fall 2014- 2015. (MUBB you did this to me!) does that make me qualify? See what I mean? Almost everybody can look back and say "well I used to smoke when I was drunk" "I've been to a bunch of hookah bars" "I've smoked crack" but it's wayyy too blurry.
I'm all for the honors system and can't speak for Wiscon's system but when they see a massive influx of people coming in saying they qualify it's their own fault.
Another example at last here in Illinois is construction being 1c. Cant wait to see how many people who've done 1 job in their life show up.
Not surprised you're a crack head, kin. Answers so many questions.
;D 8-)
In the Chicago area at least 6 am is now the sweet spot for Walgreens, weekends for Jewel-Osco. A couple places do theirs T midnight.
If you're in the Chicago area and in FB join Chicago Vaccine Hunters, there is one for Milwaukee too. Your head will explode but there is lots of good information if you can get through some of the chaff.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 03, 2021, 10:51:59 AM
Some people sleep and actually work, but yeah, I disappeared. ::)
Oh hey, still too busy at work?
Quote from: Jockey on March 05, 2021, 12:51:11 PM
As someone who set up a shot at Walgreens, they absolutely DO check if you are 1A or 1B or lower.
Secondly, it is not easy to set up an appointment. They have no guaranteed flow of the vaccine. As a matter of fact, they don't even know what version of the vaccine they will be getting each week. That is why you are automatically set up for the 2nd shot in 4 weeks (Moderna has a 4 week waiting time) - even though Pfizer (which is what I got recommends 3 weeks.
Walgreens stores find out Monday morning how many doses they will get. They then post it online to sign up. Generally, if you don't sign up on Monday or on Tuesday morning, there is no availability.
Of course I am only speaking of Racine, but have been told that this is the process for all Walgreens. Hopefully, with more availability of the vaccine, this process will improve.
I know a handful of people who have not been asked for any verification showing they're 1A or 1B that have gone to Walgreens.
Quote from: BLM on March 05, 2021, 12:37:08 PM
Right. But not based on comorbidities (being a smoker).
Also, I'm fine with smoking being considered a comorbidity. Those people are at higher risk. Yes, they did that to themselves. But they didn't know they would also be facing a pandemic at some point in their lifetime and that smoking would make the health risks they are already taking even worse. It's not that much different than SOME of the people who are obese being so because of their choice to eat certain foods and to not exercise (while realizing that some obese people have at least attempted to live a healthier lifestyle and got the short end of the genetic stick).
My problem with smoking, by itself, being listed as a qualifying comorbidity is that it is a
behavior, whereas all the other listed comorbidities are
medical diagnoses.
If they are going to start listing behaviors, why not also list overeating...because it might lead to obesity, diabetes or cardiovascular disease in the same way smoking might lead to lung disease?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 05, 2021, 01:04:13 PM
Not surprised you're a crack head, kin. Answers so many questions.
;D 8-)
Tyrone Biggums is my name
Quote from: Jockey on March 05, 2021, 12:51:11 PM
As someone who set up a shot at Walgreens, they absolutely DO check if you are 1A or 1B or lower.
Secondly, it is not easy to set up an appointment. They have no guaranteed flow of the vaccine. As a matter of fact, they don't even know what version of the vaccine they will be getting each week. That is why you are automatically set up for the 2nd shot in 4 weeks (Moderna has a 4 week waiting time) - even though Pfizer (which is what I got recommends 3 weeks.
Walgreens stores find out Monday morning how many doses they will get. They then post it online to sign up. Generally, if you don't sign up on Monday or on Tuesday morning, there is no availability.
Of course I am only speaking of Racine, but have been told that this is the process for all Walgreens. Hopefully, with more availability of the vaccine, this process will improve.
This was not my experience. Wahen I checked this morning, Walgreens in the Milwaukee area had 50+ appointments available within the next three days. I checked every day for the past week out of curiosity. There were always more than 10 appointments available.
I am not in a priority group. I called Walgreens last week and said if they have
cancelled appointments and doses were going to go to waste to give me a call. They had multiple cancellations this morning. They called me. I got my first dose of Moderna a few hours ago. They did not ask me for anything beyond an ID, but that may be because they knew I wasn't in a priority group.
I don't believe I skipped the line in this case. I took a dose that was offered to me and did not make an appointment. But there also look to be tons of appointments available so maybe the supply is outpacing the demand.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2021, 12:55:27 PM
What you have been told about Walgreens is the process many places use. Mostly because they don't want to cancel appointments.
Your best chance at appointments I have been told is to look them up Monday evenings.
Yes. they find out their weekly allotment on Monday, so Monday night is the best time to get in.
But people should also look at local family owned pharmacies as well. They can google "vaccinations [city]" and a list of places offering should be there. For Racine there were 5 listings, one of which (WalMart) was not offering any vaccines even though they were listed. Two of the other 4 were for local pharmacies. Was able to sign up my mother-in-law on a Friday for a Tuesday dose.
Quote from: BM1090 on March 05, 2021, 01:53:50 PM
This was not my experience. Walgreens in the Milwaukee area have 50+ appointments available within the next three days. I checked every day for theboast week out of curiosity. There were always more than 10 appointments available.
I am not in a priority group. I called Walgreens last week and said if they have
cancelled appointments and doses were going to go to waste to give me a call. They had multiple cancellations this morning. They called me. I got my first dose of Moderna a few hours ago. They did not ask me for anything beyond an ID, but that may be because they knew I wasn't in a priority group.
I don't believe I skipped the line in this case. I took a dose that was offered to me and did not make an appointment. But there also look to be tons of appointments available so maybe the supply is outpacing the demand.
Glad you got in. getting cancelled doses is certainly not "jumping" the line.
My post was strictly for the Racine area.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 05, 2021, 01:23:42 PM
Oh hey, still too busy at work?
Super busy. The economy is good.
Thanks for the Pavlovian response.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2021, 12:55:27 PM
What you have been told about Walgreens is the process many places use. Mostly because they don't want to cancel appointments.
Your best chance at appointments I have been told is to look them up Monday evenings.
I was told at 6am Walgreens posts the openings for 3 days out. That's the time I was able to get through.
Yup Walgreens is 6am - Some days a bit later (closer to 8 or 9am) if they are having any issues w/ the system.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 05, 2021, 02:45:32 PM
Super busy. The economy is good.
Thanks for the Pavlovian response.
Right, because when you challenge people to "put up" and you are given a long list of facts in response...that's a "Pavlovian response".
What a chickensh!t.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 05, 2021, 04:50:31 PM
Right, because when you challenge people to "put up" and you are given a long list of facts in response...that's a "Pavlovian response".
What a chickensh!t.
Snowflake.
Question for you: who's under the bridge in 3 Billy Goats Gruff?
No side effects six hours after first moderna dose.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 05, 2021, 04:50:31 PM
Right, because when you challenge people to "put up" and you are given a long list of facts in response...that's a "Pavlovian response".
What a chickensh!t.
You're wasting your time with people who don't want to have genuine discussion.
These types of people know they'll be embarrassed by actual discussion, so they troll.
Quote from: BM1090 on March 05, 2021, 01:53:50 PM
I am not in a priority group. I called Walgreens last week and said if they have
cancelled appointments and doses were going to go to waste to give me a call. They had multiple cancellations this morning. They called me. I got my first dose of Moderna a few hours ago. They did not ask me for anything beyond an ID, but that may be because they knew I wasn't in a priority group.
That's really interesting. I'm curious about your 2nd shot. Did they schedule it already? Do you have to have the same cancellation thing happen?
If it's similar to what happens here in Chicago, you can schedule a second dose at Walgreens when you are about three days out from the day it is due. Otherwise the Cook county sites will let you schedule just a second dose but it has to be by phone, and they have started requesting copies of your CDC card showing your first dose. Mariano's will also let you schedule just a second dose.
Of course this can all change in the next few weeks.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 05, 2021, 07:05:59 PM
That's really interesting. I'm curious about your 2nd shot. Did they schedule it already? Do you have to have the same cancellation thing happen?
Nothing scheduled but the pharmacist said they would call back in three weeks to get something scheduled for April 1st or 2nd.
If I don't hear back in three weeks I'll give them a call.
The post above mine outlines the fallback option. The Walgreens website saves some slots every day solely for second doses so I should be able to find a pharmacy near me to schedule it if it comes to that.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 05, 2021, 07:05:59 PM
That's really interesting. I'm curious about your 2nd shot. Did they schedule it already? Do you have to have the same cancellation thing happen?
I had to schedule my 1st and 2nd shots at the same time for Walgreens.
I hope the pharmacist does call back, but I've not heard of that happening.
Lets sum up:
Ziggy : Put up or shut up.
Everybody immediately puts up.
Ziggy (Much later): You are snow flakes.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 05, 2021, 05:35:34 PM
Snowflake.
Question for you: who's under the bridge in 3 Billy Goats Gruff?
If you didn't have hypocrisy and cowardice, what would you have?
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 05, 2021, 11:19:56 PM
If you didn't have hypocrisy and cowardice, what would you have?
A big dick.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 05, 2021, 06:47:06 PM
You're wasting your time with people who don't want to have genuine discussion.
These types of people know they'll be embarrassed by actual discussion, so they troll.
Yup, though in this case, he's
pretending to be trolling because he has determined that looking like a troll is less embarrassing looking like the idiot he is and having to admit that his fantasy world of senile Biden is completely false.
Fake trolling is better than admitting reality.
2.9M vaccines given today per the CDC. Good job droolin' Joe.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 03, 2021, 07:43:22 AM
Joe Biden Botches Democrats' Names, Asks 'What Am I Doing Here?'
You asked what he did, you got it, yet still just hurl childish insults. You're embarrassing yourself. Really.
Biden's just a conduit. Guaranteed he makes no decisions of his own.
Not to mention one of the most important pieces of legislation in the last 25 years w/o one Know Nothing vote
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2021, 04:42:35 PM
Biden's just a conduit. Guaranteed he makes no decisions of his own.
Good. I wouldn't want Biden (or his son) deciding how to handle a pandemic. We saw how that went over the last year, and it wasn't good. I don't know why you'd want him making those decisions. Unlike Trump, he'll get out of the way and let the people who are qualified to make these decisions do their work. And that is a very good thing for this country. You want this country open. You should be thanking your lucky stars for the change in administration.
Quote from: BLM on March 06, 2021, 04:55:26 PM
Good. I wouldn't want Biden (or his son) deciding how to handle a pandemic. We saw how that went over the last year, and it wasn't good. I don't know why you'd want him making those decisions. Unlike Trump, he'll get out of the way and let the people who are qualified to make these decisions do their work. And that is a very good thing for this country. You want this country open. You should be thanking your lucky stars for the change in administration.
Pretty certain states would be heavily encouraged to be open by now if Trump were in his second term and teachers would be in classrooms, where they belong. Fauci would have been chit-canned and left to write his book, for which he'll profit handsomely, from his hidey hole.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2021, 05:02:45 PM
Pretty certain states would be heavily encouraged to be open by now if Trump were in his second term and teachers would be in classrooms, where they belong. Fauci would have been chit-canned and left to write his book, for which he'll profit handsomely, from his hidey hole.
Yup. And people would be dying at higher rates, vaccines rolling out slowly and getting into fewer arms, hospitals filling up, but we'd be open so hooray!
Had Trump not put the wheels of vaccine production in motion, and at the speed of light, Biden would have no vaccine to purchase and distribute at this point. Talk 'bout savin' lives, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2021, 05:02:45 PM
Pretty certain states would be heavily encouraged to be open by now if Trump were in his second term and teachers would be in classrooms, where they belong.
And we'd be 'winning' the pandemic death toll by an even larger margin.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2021, 05:15:03 PM
Had Trump not put the wheels of vaccine production in motion, and at the speed of light, Biden would have no vaccine to purchase and distribute at this point. Talk 'bout savin' lives, hey?
What exactly did he do to "put the wheels of vaccine production in motion"? Say FedEx and Walgreens will handle it all?
Again, I wonder what it's like to live this ignorantly. As they say, ignorance is bliss.
Quote from: BLM on March 06, 2021, 07:57:23 PM
Again, I wonder what it's like to live this ignorantly. As they say, ignorance is bliss.
When you create a hidey-hole in your head, you do things like try to have an accent on a message board.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2021, 05:02:45 PM
Pretty certain states would be heavily encouraged to be open by now if Trump were in his second term and teachers would be in classrooms, where they belong. Fauci would have been chit-canned and left to write his book, for which he'll profit handsomely, from his hidey hole.
Right.
Good thing Trump lost ai'na?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2021, 05:02:45 PM
Pretty certain states would be heavily encouraged to be open by now if Trump were in his second term and teachers would be in classrooms, where they belong. Fauci would have been chit-canned and left to write his book, for which he'll profit handsomely, from his hidey hole.
I agree 100% with you, its a good thing Drumpf is not in his second term. Cheers!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 06, 2021, 05:15:03 PM
Had Trump not put the wheels of vaccine production in motion, and at the speed of light, Biden would have no vaccine to purchase and distribute at this point. Talk 'bout savin' lives, hey?
Yes. Warp speed was great. No doubt.
His plans for distribution were awful. Good thing Biden was elected to fix that.
Glad you've seen the light.
Informative charts on vaccination rates.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/01/28/960901166/how-is-the-covid-19-vaccination-campaign-going-in-your-state
We're up to 1 in 6 Americans vaccinated with at least one dose. There is a common denominator amongst all the states in the bottom quartile, I just can't quite put my finger on it...
Props to the bureau of prisons for using more than 100% of their doses.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 07, 2021, 07:31:41 AM
Informative charts on vaccination rates.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/01/28/960901166/how-is-the-covid-19-vaccination-campaign-going-in-your-state
We're up to 1 in 6 Americans vaccinated with at least one dose. There is a common denominator amongst all the states in the bottom quartile, I just can't quite put my finger on it...
Even then I would like to see what these look like in a month because every state has over ten percent with the first shot. Not sure if the end of May is realistic, but the progress is good and looks to be accelerating at this point.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 07, 2021, 07:42:24 AM
Props to the bureau of prisons for using more than 100% of their doses.
They put the skills of some of their guests to good use.
Quote from: BLM on March 06, 2021, 07:57:23 PM
Again, I wonder what it's like to live this ignorantly. As they say, ignorance is bliss.
Brawndo's got what plants crave.
Quote from: BLM on March 06, 2021, 04:55:26 PM
Good. I wouldn't want Biden (or his son) deciding how to handle a pandemic. We saw how that went over the last year, and it wasn't good. I don't know why you'd want him making those decisions. Unlike Trump, he'll get out of the way and let the people who are qualified to make these decisions do their work. And that is a very good thing for this country. You want this country open. You should be thanking your lucky stars for the change in administration.
Biden did make a decision. "I'll let the qualified people make the call and then make it happen through my office."
Denying trumps involvement of getting the vaccine out very fast is stupid. Acting like the guy wasn't an absolute stain on the world is also stupid.
Quote from: #UnleashDiener on March 07, 2021, 09:46:32 AM
Denying trumps involvement of getting the vaccine out very fast is stupid. Acting like the guy wasn't an absolute stain on the world is also stupid.
Absolutely.
Quote from: #UnleashDiener on March 07, 2021, 09:46:32 AM
Denying trumps involvement of getting the vaccine out very fast is stupid. Acting like the guy wasn't an absolute stain on the world is also stupid.
Yes. Trump's Warp Speed was excellent. Biden's vaccine rollout is excellent. Overall, modern medicine and modern science are absolutely incredible.
Here's a sign-up for a clearinghouse that makes sure unused vaccines (due to appointment no-shows, etc.) don't go to waste. If they contact you, you have 15 minutes to respond, and you have 2 hours to get to the vaccination spot.
https://hidrb.com/
Quote from: warriorchick on March 09, 2021, 11:53:20 AM
Here's a sign-up for a clearinghouse that makes sure unused vaccines (due to appointment no-shows, etc.) don't go to waste. If they contact you, you have 15 minutes to respond, and you have 2 hours to get to the vaccination spot.
https://hidrb.com/
👏👏 i figured it was time to get my first dose lined up this morning and was shocked at the appointment availability through Walgreens online scheduling. At my local Walgreens there were 40 available appointments for tomorrow and hundreds available at surrounding Walgreens sites
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 09, 2021, 12:07:30 PM
👏👏 i figured it was time to get my first dose lined up this morning and was shocked at the appointment availability through Walgreens online scheduling. At my local Walgreens there were 40 available appointments for tomorrow and hundreds available at surrounding Walgreens sites
You're in a priority group?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 09, 2021, 12:17:42 PM
You're in a priority group?
1A cause job. Far from high risk which is why I've been waiting but given the wide open availability seems to make sense to do it now.
In my head I told myself if after logging into Walgreens there was only a handful of available appointments I would have continued to wait it out but company I work for is really starting to lean on employees to get it ASAP so here goes nothing.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 09, 2021, 12:21:13 PM
here goes nothing.
It's quick and easy. Get the 2nd near the end of your day, that way you can sleep off the side-effects if you have them.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 09, 2021, 12:07:30 PM
👏👏 i figured it was time to get my first dose lined up this morning and was shocked at the appointment availability through Walgreens online scheduling. At my local Walgreens there were 40 available appointments for tomorrow and hundreds available at surrounding Walgreens sites
The amount of openings is staggering where I work. Where I live it's a rush when Walgreens opens appointments.
I don't shame anyone getting a vaccine if there's appointments available the same day.
I know a volunteer working at the county, she texts her entire address book at 3p daily to find arms for vaccines.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 09, 2021, 12:34:13 PM
It's quick and easy. Get the 2nd near the end of your day, that way you can sleep off the side-effects if you have them.
👍👍
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 09, 2021, 12:34:13 PM
It's quick and easy. Get the 2nd near the end of your day, that way you can sleep off the side-effects if you have them.
Get my second tomorrow at 5ish. Maybe I'll take some melatonin and ibuprofen right after and just pass right out.
Quote from: Retire0 on March 09, 2021, 01:04:07 PM
The amount of openings is staggering where I work. Where I live it's a rush when Walgreens opens appointments.
I don't shame anyone getting a vaccine if there's appointments available the same day.
I know a volunteer working at the county, she texts her entire address book at 3p daily to find arms for vaccines.
I have a friend who is a pharmacist at Walgreens. He texted me Sunday morning saying they'd had a number of cancellations and if I came in I could probably get my first dose, so I walked in and got it Sunday.
Quote from: BLM on March 09, 2021, 01:45:04 PM
I have a friend who is a pharmacist at Walgreens. He texted me Sunday morning saying they'd had a number of cancellations and if I came in I could probably get my first dose, so I walked in and got it Sunday.
Yep. Need arms, in many areas phases should just stop.
Where are y'all finding these openings at Walgreens? My 65+ parents in northwest IL can't find anything.
There was an interview on television this morning saying that there is more availability in Wisconsin than people realize. That people should stop "self selecting" themselves out if they are members of an otherwise eligible group. I think we are just a couple weeks away from "procrastination" and "lack of transportation" being the primary factors for people in eligible populations not being vaccinated.
Quote from: Retire0 on March 09, 2021, 01:57:16 PM
Yep. Need arms, in many areas phases should just stop.
And I think that might be the best way to manage the situation above if it actually becomes a serious problem.
Honestly almost everyone I know who has gotten it in Milwaukee has had their appointment at the Walgreens on 27th and Wisconsin. If Walgreens does get their doses for the week on Mondays, I wouldn't be surprised if that location just asks people dropping off prescriptions on Sunday afternoons if they would like to get a vaccine while they drop off prescriptions. While I was waiting to fill out paperwork to get the vaccine, an older man came in saying he had an appointment for his second dose, they checked their list and said his name was not on it, but they told him they could give it to him if he wanted or he would need to call a number to reschedule his second dose. And then he told them he would just call and reschedule, hah.
A coworker of mine was dropping off a prescription (not sure this was a Walgreens though) and just asked basically how she can sign up for the vaccine and they asked her right there if she would like one. I bet a good amount of people could do that and end up with one at the same time.
I just checked the Walgreens website, and they within 10 miles of where I am in Las Vegas, there are 98 appointments available for tomorrow.
Ziggys if you are in FB join Chicago Vaccine Hunters, people post lord of useful info there not just for Chicago, but you do have to work through some of the crap like people posting the same question 850 times.
Walgreens tends to post appointments at around 6 am though today it was more like 7 am. and sometimes there will be a lot in one area as opposed to another, today people were posting that they got appointments in Harvard and Marengo. If I hear of any other info I will try to let you know, I've had my two shots but am trying to gather info for others ( and actually found something that helped someone book their 95 year old aunt, woohoo!).
Walgreens and CVS are very hit or miss depending on the state, and the competency of that state. Some states have had zero, Walgreens etc big pharmacy availability. Some of this has to do with an over availability in rural parts of some states, while not having enough availability in more urban areas.
My 91 year old auntie was able to get her first dose this past week privately, only because some other elderly people got together as a group and worked with the local health department on their own. She has removed her name from consideration for next MUBB Coach, but, she is available to provide motion offense, and lateral quickness, on a consulting basis.
I was talking to a pharmacist at a grocery store, and he mentioned reaching out to the schools to get their teachers vaccinated. He reached out to 10 and all declined. It sounded like the pharmacy was moving towards the "let's just give it to anyone who wants it" mentality.
I have discovered a strange dichotomy in the delivery system here in Minnesota: chain pharmacies are getting better vaccine supply than big hospital and clinic systems.
We are moving to phase 1C tomorrow (45-64 with a preexisting condition, and several new categories of 'less' essential workers). There were lots of appointments for these groups earlier today through a local grocery store pharmacy (Hy-Vee). OTOH, Mayo and the other local clinics are still struggling to get the 70+ crowd vaccinated. My doc at Mayo told me I'd probably have to wait several weeks longer if I want to get it there...so I'm gonna go the Hy-Vee pharmacy route.
IMO, this is rather unfortunate. Mayo has legions of nurses ready and waiting to administer huge volumes of vaccines. The pharmacies, on the other hand, seem to be stretched thin, and are struggling to get people through.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 09, 2021, 05:30:03 PM
I have discovered a strange dichotomy in the delivery system here in Minnesota: chain pharmacies are getting better vaccine supply than big hospital and clinic systems.
We are moving to phase 1C tomorrow (45-64 with a preexisting condition, and several new categories of 'less' essential workers). There were lots of appointments for these groups earlier today through a local grocery store pharmacy (Hy-Vee). OTOH, Mayo and the other local clinics are still struggling to get the 70+ crowd vaccinated. My doc at Mayo told me I'd probably have to wait several weeks longer if I want to get it there...so I'm gonna go the Hy-Vee pharmacy route.
IMO, this is rather unfortunate. Mayo has legions of nurses ready and waiting to administer huge volumes of vaccines. The pharmacies, on the other hand, seem to be stretched thin, and are struggling to get people through.
Maybe Mayo should send some nurses out to the Hy-Vees.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 09, 2021, 05:32:28 PM
Maybe Mayo should send some nurses out to the Hy-Vees.
Possibly. But personnel isn't the only issue at Hy-Vee. Space is a huge issue as well. Most of the Pharmacy setups just have walk-up windows and maybe one or two chairs to sit while you are waiting for your prescription. I have heard it gets pretty crowded when you add a bunch of people waiting for vaccines to the mix. Adding a bunch of nurses might add expertise, but make the logjam even worse.
IMO The better solution would be to send more of the vaccine to Mayo and the other clinics in the area, but my opinion doesn't seem to carry a whole lot of weight with the Department of Health. 🤷♂️
lol that was me at my second Walgreens shot in Lakeview in Chicago. I took a selfie of me sitting in my chair waiting my thirty minutes afterwards right in front of the nail polish section.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 09, 2021, 05:49:29 PM
lol that was me at my second Walgreens shot in Lakeview in Chicago. I took a selfie of me sitting in my chair waiting my thirty minutes afterwards right in front of the nail polish section.
Yeah. I completely get the idea of using retail pharmacies in rural areas or places where hospital access is a problem. But in places where hospitals and clinics are relatively plentiful, they would seem to be a better option than Walgreens, CVS or Hy-Vee.
Oh, well. I'll go wherever I can get my shot soonest...even if that means I will soon take a selfie sitting between the nail polish and the laxatives.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 09, 2021, 02:40:44 PM
Ziggys if you are in FB join Chicago Vaccine Hunters, people post lord of useful info there not just for Chicago, but you do have to work through some of the crap like people posting the same question 850 times.
Walgreens tends to post appointments at around 6 am though today it was more like 7 am. and sometimes there will be a lot in one area as opposed to another, today people were posting that they got appointments in Harvard and Marengo. If I hear of any other info I will try to let you know, I've had my two shots but am trying to gather info for others ( and actually found something that helped someone book their 95 year old aunt, woohoo!).
Muchas grassyass. Appreciate the info, Marengo isn't too far for them.
According to a searching site, Florida has a few appointments available statewide. None in South Florida. Such a great job our gov is doing. Thank giod he refused outside help and just left it in the hands of his biggest donors.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 09, 2021, 01:24:41 PM
Get my second tomorrow at 5ish. Maybe I'll take some melatonin and ibuprofen right after and just pass right out.
Don't take the NSAID. It lessens your immune response.
Moving from the logistics back to the science...a new study shows that the Pfizer vaccine appears to be highly effective against the Brazilian variant of the virus.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/03/09/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/
Herd it werks on da manscape variant two, hey?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 09, 2021, 06:18:30 PM
Don't take the NSAID. It lessens your immune response.
Agreed. Any anti-inflammatory drug could impact the immune response. When I get vaccinated, I plan to avoid them if I can...and will only take them of the symptoms are bad and persistent.
When I get my shot, I'm gonna go home and take a nap.
In Nevada, there are so many appointments going unfilled (thousands per day), they are considering lowering the qualifying age to 55.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/thousands-of-covid-vaccine-appointments-going-unfilled-2298295/
Quote from: warriorchick on March 09, 2021, 07:19:12 PM
In Nevada, there are so many appointments going unfilled (thousands per day), they are considering lowering the qualifying age to 55.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/thousands-of-covid-vaccine-appointments-going-unfilled-2298295/
Seems like a no brainer. Any vaccine that goes on used is a crying shame.
This surprises me: people in NJ are canceling appointments for Pfizer or Moderna vaccines in order to get the one-shot J&J vaccine. If anything, I thought people would turn down the J&J because of the lower efficacy rate, but apparently many like the one–dose convenience. Just get the first one you can!
https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/03/08/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-nj-doses-not-coming/4632150001/
Demand for the single-shot COVID vaccine made by Johnson & Johnson is so great in New Jersey that some residents are canceling appointments for two-shot Pfizer and Moderna doses, officials said Monday.
But after receiving more than 70,000 J&J doses last week, New Jersey is not expected to get any more for the next three weeks. And those holding out for the one-shot vaccine will lose their spot on a very long line.
"If you choose to wait for the J&J vaccine, you will go back into the queue," Health Commissioner Judy Persichilli said at a briefing Monday. "If that is your choice, we respect that."
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 09, 2021, 07:27:14 PM
Seems like a no brainer. Any vaccine that goes on used is a crying shame.
Technically, they aren't used; if there's no appointment, they stay in the freezer.
But yeah, the sooner we reach herd immunity the better.
I'm now of the opinion that the eligibility requirements have had their shelf life, and open up vaccines to anyone that wants them. The amount of people under 55 (in IL) without pre-existing conditions or other eligibility requirements that should have been met, in my own extended family, that have gotten both doses is crazy. My wife, myself and my 39 year old brother are the only ones who haven't gotten them yet (we are/were patiently waiting).
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 09, 2021, 01:24:41 PM
Get my second tomorrow at 5ish. Maybe I'll take some melatonin and ibuprofen right after and just pass right out.
Sounds like a case for Whiskey and Weed.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 09, 2021, 09:14:08 PM
I'm now of the opinion that the eligibility requirements have had their shelf life, and open up vaccines to anyone that wants them.
Agreed. Let's get this thing cranking now that the supply issues will be largely solved.
People in the greater Chicago metro area are still going nuts trying to find appointments. Many now are making the trek to the state sites in Springfield and Quincy, even Carbondale. Quincy has the J&J, so it's only one long car trip.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 09, 2021, 09:38:15 PM
Agreed. Let's get this thing cranking now that the supply issues will be largely solved.
I read an article yesterday about Wisconsin likely starting 1C soon which sounds like it will be people with health issues. I understand prioritizing them also but am really wondering when they will get to people not in the priority groups..
I think there's a tipping point on the phases where it's going to get silly and worse, frustrating for a larger majority of people. I don't pretend that vaccines are like Big Mac's, and anyone can right now just drive and get one immediately. But I've seen some of the 1C guidelines IL is thinking of putting out there, and it just seems silly. If need be, give folks 65 and older an early morning window (7am - 11am), and if vaccines are available after 12pm, come one, come all.
I agree that the phases are getting to be a little much. It certainly made sense to give highest priority to frontline healthcare workers, people in nursing homes and generally those 65+. But now we're seeing complicated guidelines that may be staged by age, comorbidities, categories of work, or some combination thereof. And they vary from state to state.
Seems like it might be time to open the gates and just let things happen. I recently saw an interview with an epidemiologist from Baylor College of Medicine, and he seemed to feel that way as well.
Just saw that Alaska has opened up vaccines to anyone and everyone 16 and older. First state to do so.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 09, 2021, 07:57:15 PM
This surprises me: people in NJ are canceling appointments for Pfizer or Moderna vaccines in order to get the one-shot J&J vaccine. If anything, I thought people would turn down the J&J because of the lower efficacy rate, but apparently many like the one–dose convenience. Just get the first one you can!
https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/03/08/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-nj-doses-not-coming/4632150001/
Demand for the single-shot COVID vaccine made by Johnson & Johnson is so great in New Jersey that some residents are canceling appointments for two-shot Pfizer and Moderna doses, officials said Monday.
But after receiving more than 70,000 J&J doses last week, New Jersey is not expected to get any more for the next three weeks. And those holding out for the one-shot vaccine will lose their spot on a very long line.
"If you choose to wait for the J&J vaccine, you will go back into the queue," Health Commissioner Judy Persichilli said at a briefing Monday. "If that is your choice, we respect that."
J&J being 100% effective in preventing hospitalization and death is all people care about, imo. If I have the choice later this week I will absolutely go with J&J, not too concerned about getting the virus after being vaccinated if I know it won't wipe me on my ass.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 09, 2021, 06:04:17 PM
Muchas grassyass. Appreciate the info, Marengo isn't too far for them.
Their county finally got some Moderna, so they got appts.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 09, 2021, 09:43:11 PM
People in the greater Chicago metro area are still going nuts trying to find appointments. Many now are making the trek to the state sites in Springfield and Quincy, even Carbondale. Quincy has the J&J, so it's only one long car trip.
Quincy! I have 4 Marquette friends from Quincy, 2 of which were roommates Jr & Sr year. I've actually visited at least four times.
Oh great news Ziggy!
I was just looking through the FB group to see if there was anything to pass along , apparently supplies have jumped.
I agree that the tiers can be way too complicated
Right. Because the next step in Wisconsin is going to be people with pre-existing health issues. What issues count? Will documentation be required? Approval from your doctor?
In a perfect world, this makes sense. But it's going to be full of confusion. It would simply be smoother to get rid of the prioritization and let people sign up and get the shots.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 10, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Right. Because the next step in Wisconsin is going to be people with pre-existing health issues. What issues count? Will documentation be required? Approval from your doctor?
In a perfect world, this makes sense. But it's going to be full of confusion. It would simply be smoother to get rid of the prioritization and let people sign up and get the shots.
Personally, it should just be done by age at this point, since it is less confusing and easy to message. Also, the older a person is, the more serious health risks they are likely to have.
If someone has a pre-existing condition, they can get a referral from their GP. And anything that the doc feels is a PEC should be enough to get a vax. And if a few people slip through and get vaccines ahead of time, so be it.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 10, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Right. Because the next step in Wisconsin is going to be people with pre-existing health issues. What issues count? Will documentation be required? Approval from your doctor?
In a perfect world, this makes sense. But it's going to be full of confusion. It would simply be smoother to get rid of the prioritization and let people sign up and get the shots.
This is why Connecticut said age only except teachers. The state was sending nurses to school districts and vaccinating a whole district in a day.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 10, 2021, 08:07:46 AM
This is why Connecticut said age only except teachers. The state was sending nurses to school districts and vaccinating a whole district in a day.
I've wanted local health officials to do this with retirement homes. Saves a bunch on travel, and realistically, they could just go door to door in a large complex and hit up a large portion of the retired population that can't/doesn't drive much.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 10, 2021, 08:07:46 AM
This is why Connecticut said age only except teachers. The state was sending nurses to school districts and vaccinating a whole district in a day.
So smart!! My wife just told me last night our kids have off on Monday for the same reason. Mass vaccination effort for all teachers in the district in one day.
If pre-existing issues are the next tier in Wisconsin expect a world of confusion. It was compounded here in Illinois because Cook and the surrounding counties opted out due to the fact that they still had hundreds of thousands of seniors that had not been able to schedule shots. But the pharmacies opted to follow the state and not the county guidelines -except not all in the city did. And then some have required some type of documentation and some haven't. Well -intentioned but created a mess.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 10, 2021, 08:10:15 AM
I've wanted local health officials to do this with retirement homes. Saves a bunch on travel, and realistically, they could just go door to door in a large complex and hit up a large portion of the retired population that can't/doesn't drive much.
This is being done in Indy.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 09, 2021, 06:18:30 PM
Don't take the NSAID. It lessens your immune response.
Thanks for the heads up didn't know that. I'll stick to my zinc, d3 and vit C and maybe ziggys recommendation to knock me out.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 10, 2021, 10:54:44 AM
Thanks for the heads up didn't know that. I'll stick to my zinc, d3 and vit C and maybe ziggys recommendation to knock me out.
I mean, you can take all of that, but just remember that you really aren't sick. You're just having an immune response - and that's a good thing!
This is kind of funny but demonstrated how our new vaccine platform works.
https://twitter.com/shanselman/status/1369139327763054594?s=21 (https://twitter.com/shanselman/status/1369139327763054594?s=21)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 10, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Right. Because the next step in Wisconsin is going to be people with pre-existing health issues. What issues count? Will documentation be required? Approval from your doctor?
In a perfect world, this makes sense. But it's going to be full of confusion. It would simply be smoother to get rid of the prioritization and let people sign up and get the shots.
I think I would be fine with prior conditions being on the honor system? Just release a list of however many conditions doctors think are relevant and say "Age 60+ and anyone with the following conditions." Then just make everyone check a box with the condition they have when scheduling their appt. Of course droves of people will fake it to get their shot first, but if like, 60% of people don't try to jump the line, it'll still give people with actual conditions a better/earlier chance.
I would then just do it by age if we are going by the honor system with pre-existing conditions.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 10, 2021, 10:56:31 AM
I mean, you can take all of that, but just remember that you really aren't sick. You're just having an immune response - and that's a good thing!
My understanding is by taking that, it helps boost our immune system to generate a greater immune response to make the vaccine more effective.
I don't know if that's proven to happen or just theories by some medical professionals. I guess some of it is just that it can't hurt.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 10, 2021, 11:56:36 AM
I would then just do it by age
This is really the way it should have been done nationwide. But alas, no national plan.
Regardless, I'm gonna make the bold prediction that based on supplies coming available, everyone that wants a vaccine (~70% of the population) will be fully vaccinated by the end of May (meaning 1st shot end of April/beginning of May). Party on.
(Not really that bold, prez has enough vaccine secured for 100% 1st shots by the end of may)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 10, 2021, 11:56:36 AM
I would then just do it by age if we are going by the honor system with pre-existing conditions.
Yep. The preexisting conditions criteria are getting all messed up and confusing. In addition to the question of how people demonstrate a condition, states are tinkering with the CDC list. For example, CDC listed only Type 2 diabetes as a qualifying condition, but MN added Type 1 diabetes to the list. And neither list includes hypertension, even though a recent study found that it poses a greater risk than diabetes. Crazy.
Quote from: #UnleashDiener on March 07, 2021, 09:46:32 AM
Denying trumps involvement of getting the vaccine out very fast is stupid. Acting like the guy wasn't an absolute stain on the world is also stupid.
Here is a post from a guy referencing a NYT article:
I spent eight years in pharma and biotech. Sorry but Trump and Co. mainly deserve a participation trophy. At most.
Yes, they did the obvious, the least they could do, and got pharma to work on the vaccines. Pfizer and Moderna (and many others) did what they do best in their labs and conducting trials. They're heroes. They bulked up---to a point--- for the production process but did not, arguably COULD NOT, scale sufficiently while Trump and his Keystone Kops, dithered.
Once pharma did its job, Trump dropped the ball. Or, to be accurate, never picked it up.
The failure to scale up and then effectively address mass distribution/mass inoculation was what helped kill Americans. And Trump's refusal to get the Federal government into the role it should have been playing all along was what set the U.S. on a record-breaking mortality rate.
President Biden, and his administration, immediately spotted the gap and moved to address it. The hand-off from pharma to scale-up, distribution and inoculation---the vital link, the government's main job---came under control.
Trump acted purely in his best interest in trying to get a vaccine created. He thought he'd be glorified and it would help him win the election.
Fortunately for the country, it was an exceedingly rare time where his interest the country's aligned. After November 3rd, he had no interest in getting the vaccine rolled out, there was nothing in it for him. So he dumped responsibility solely on the states while he and Secretary of Fail Jared looked on.
Trump's handling of the virus was a colossal failure. You couldn't have possibly had a worse person at the top to get through it.
But what really the world has done in terms of vaccination has been truly remarkable. We're just extremely lucky Trump's term was up when it was. We're in a much, much better place than we would have been had this happened in the middle of Trump's term instead of at the end of it. In terms of getting even one effective vaccine rolled out, it really couldn't have gone better. The fact that we now have 3 options available? Science is amazing.
To further illustrate the craziness and confusion of the tiering system: Here in MN, we have tiers 1a, 1b (phases 1-4), 1c and 2. We just officially moved to phase 3 of tier 1b...but reportedly some providers (WalMart) are refusing to vaccinate people in the new phase, even if they show up with a valid appointment. Others are allowing them, if people provide documentation. Still others are just vaccinating anyone who shows up with an appointment.
So even if you know and follow the state's complex rules, you still might be turned away...or not.
On a happier note: GooooMarquette got vaccinated today! I learned that some voluntary peer counseling for a local mental health nonprofit qualifies me as a 'healthcare worker.' It never occurred to me that that would qualify, until I noticed the other day that volunteers can qualify as healthcare workers if they interact with patients or clients. First shot today; second on 3/31!
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 10, 2021, 05:05:36 PM
On a happier note: GooooMarquette got vaccinated today! I learned that some voluntary peer counseling for a local mental health nonprofit qualifies me as a 'healthcare worker.' It never occurred to me that that would qualify, until I noticed the other day that volunteers can qualify as healthcare workers if they interact with patients or clients. First shot today; second on 3/31!
I thought you were a Medical Doctor, grad from MCW if my memory serves me.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on March 10, 2021, 05:15:40 PM
I thought you were a Medical Doctor, grad from MCW if my memory serves me.
I am (MCW class of '87), but I left practice many years back and switched to law. Medicine just didn't suit me.
I have a tremendous respect for people who can serve patients all day every day, and have been working as a lawyer for doctors for the past ~30 years. But being a lawyer for doctors didn't give me priority access. My volunteer work did. Go figure.
Ah, gotcha. Glad you were able to get your shot. Which brand? And where did you get it (extension of your comments on clinic vs. pharmacy recently)? I've been hearing about some of my younger employees getting vaccinated here in Wisconsin--one has an occasional part time job working for Door Dash, and is using that as a "food distribution" worker, which I think is in the current phase.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on March 10, 2021, 05:47:42 PM
Ah, gotcha. Glad you were able to get your shot. Which brand? And where did you get it (extension of your comments on clinic vs. pharmacy recently)? I've been hearing about some of my younger employees getting vaccinated here in Wisconsin--one has an occasional part time job working for Door Dash, and is using that as a "food distribution" worker, which I think is in the current phase.
I got the Pfizer vaccine. Five hours and no side effects, so I am probably in the clear for this first shot.
I decided to get the shot at a local pharmacy (Hy-Vee in the Rochester area), mainly because getting into the clinic would have been more of a hassle with their backlog. The pharmacy was cramped, but quick and efficient.
got a message through MyChart tonight from UW Health. With pre-existing conditions eligibility opening up on TH in WI, I thought maybe my carcass was up for a shot.
Not to be, they wanted participants in a general study.
Back to being slightly nervous hanging at the bar without a mask.
Quote from: BLM on March 10, 2021, 02:00:04 PM
Trump's handling of the virus was a colossal failure. You couldn't have possibly had a worse person at the top to get through it.
But what really the world has done in terms of vaccination has been truly remarkable. We're just extremely lucky Trump's term was up when it was. We're in a much, much better place than we would have been had this happened in the middle of Trump's term instead of at the end of it. In terms of getting even one effective vaccine rolled out, it really couldn't have gone better. The fact that we now have 3 options available? Science is amazing.
racist marxist extortionists must still be an accepted practice? real nice sounding appellation ya got there, but do they really believe that? i am not the only one here who deems this group highly offensive.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 10, 2021, 11:24:50 PM
racist marxist extortionists must still be an accepted practice? real nice sounding appellation ya got there, but do they really believe that? i am not the only one here who deems this group highly offensive.
Who? Trump? Agreed.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 10, 2021, 11:24:50 PM
racist marxist extortionists must still be an accepted practice? real nice sounding appellation ya got there, but do they really believe that? i am not the only one here who deems this group highly offensive.
I had to read this 4 times to try to figure out what you're trying to convey. And then this was all I could think of.
(https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/5e/6b/c2/5e6bc2b5289ca174351d90b07fc2a96e.jpg)
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 10, 2021, 11:24:50 PM
racist marxist extortionists must still be an accepted practice? real nice sounding appellation ya got there, but do they really believe that? i am not the only one here who deems this group highly offensive.
The next time I understand what you're talking about, I'll be very scared for myself.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 10, 2021, 11:24:50 PM
racist marxist extortionists must still be an accepted practice? real nice sounding appellation ya got there, but do they really believe that? i am not the only one here who deems this group highly offensive.
WTF are you even talking about with this random word salad?
Averaging 2.17M doses per day now, expected to have 3M doses/day available at the end of the month. Now 40% of people either vaccinated or have anti-bodies from prior infection.
This is moving a lot faster than expected. Going from "late summer or early fall" to "end of May" for reaching normal is pretty great.
AZ vaccine is being suspended in a few countries after reports of side effects.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-denmark-idUSKBN2B319K?taid=604a25f0d52b5600013a51e5&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
The EU's infection rate is now above the UK's and US's.
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1370048164997251077?s=20
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 11, 2021, 10:35:03 AM
AZ vaccine is being suspended in a few countries after reports of side effects.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-denmark-idUSKBN2B319K?taid=604a25f0d52b5600013a51e5&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
At first glance, I thought Arizona was suspending vaccinations and wondered which of the three US vaccines was having problems. :-[
Back to AstraZeneca, I wonder if there was some behind the scenes information related to this that led to the much slower (and still uncertain) road to approval in the US.
Issues with Astra Zeneca would be very bad from a global standpoint.
better correct this before his state of the union address whenever that is supposed to be. "...share the truth even when it's hard to hear
https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-joe-biden-politics-pandemics-coronavirus-pandemic-71b80db13ee03ace2858228bbe52f099
and why the heck is he still wearing a mask? he had vaccine over a month ago and he is more than properly distanced. maybe he doesn't even know they put the mask on him before they shoved him onto the stage
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 11, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
better correct this before his state of the union address whenever that is supposed to be. "...share the truth even when it's hard to hear
https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-joe-biden-politics-pandemics-coronavirus-pandemic-71b80db13ee03ace2858228bbe52f099
and why the heck is he still wearing a mask? he had vaccine over a month ago and he is more than properly distanced. maybe he doesn't even know they put the mask on him before they shoved him onto the stage
Still butthurt that this guy has accomplished more in two months than your guy did in four years huh?
(I know you need to go check with Tucker and Co to see how to properly respond to that. Don't worry. I'll give you time.)
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 11, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
and why the heck is he still wearing a mask? he had vaccine over a month ago and he is more than properly distanced. maybe he doesn't even know they put the mask on him before they shoved him onto the stage
Just a coupla thoughts: Leading by example. Following CDC guidance for interactions where you don't know the full vaccine status of every person you encounter.
It isn't nearly as complicated as you apparently think.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 11, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
better correct this before his state of the union address whenever that is supposed to be. "...share the truth even when it's hard to hear
https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-joe-biden-politics-pandemics-coronavirus-pandemic-71b80db13ee03ace2858228bbe52f099
and why the heck is he still wearing a mask? he had vaccine over a month ago and he is more than properly distanced. maybe he doesn't even know they put the mask on him before they shoved him onto the stage
And also racist marxist extortionists must still be an accepted practice? real nice sounding appellation ya got there, but do they really believe that? i am not the only one here who deems this group highly offensive. Amiright?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 11, 2021, 12:37:17 PM
better correct this before his state of the union address whenever that is supposed to be. "...share the truth even when it's hard to hear
https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-check-joe-biden-politics-pandemics-coronavirus-pandemic-71b80db13ee03ace2858228bbe52f099
and why the heck is he still wearing a mask? he had vaccine over a month ago and he is more than properly distanced. maybe he doesn't even know they put the mask on him before they shoved him onto the stage
Ah, NOW the truth matters to you.
He is still wearing a mask for the same reason everyone should still be wearing a mask. Allow me to fix the font size so your old eyes can read it this time.
There is no evidence that vaccinated individuals do not asymptomatically spread covid 19.You wear the mask for other people, not yourself. This shouldn't be news to you... but it somehow is?
1. Set an example.
2. Common courtesy.
3. Protecting himself and others.
I think the laughing gas has been leaking in rocket's offices for years.
WI released new eligibility guidelines today. Fat guys with hypertension are now eligible. (Fat chicks too but I still identify as a fat guy)
Get.
In.
My.
Arm.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2021, 01:09:51 PM
WI released new eligibility guidelines today. Fat guys with hypertension are now eligible. (Fat chicks too but I still identify as a fat guy)
Get.
In.
My.
Arm.
Another example of the inconsistency of the guidelines among states. WI includes several conditions (like hypertension and asthma) that aren't in the CDC guidelines. FWIW, the data seem to indicate that WI is right and CDC is wrong. Still, the state to stat inconsistencies are maddening.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 11, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Another example of the inconsistency of the guidelines among states. WI includes several conditions (like hypertension and asthma) that aren't in the CDC guidelines. FWIW, the data seem to indicate that WI is right and CDC is wrong. Still, the state to stat inconsistencies are maddening.
WI 1) has a TON of fatfůcks and 2) is doing really well with vaccine numbers.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2021, 03:56:06 PM
WI 1) has a TON of fatfůcks and 2) is doing really well with vaccine numbers.
1 is actually an untrue stereotype. WI is in the middle of the pack for obesity.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 11, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Another example of the inconsistency of the guidelines among states. WI includes several conditions (like hypertension and asthma) that aren't in the CDC guidelines. FWIW, the data seem to indicate that WI is right and CDC is wrong. Still, the state to stat inconsistencies are maddening.
I really don't know if this is a problem. Most people don't really pay attention to anything that is going on in other states. Would strict national standards be better? I am not sure that's a question I can answer.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 11, 2021, 03:58:22 PM
1 is actually an untrue stereotype. WI is in the middle of the pack for obesity.
So serious.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2021, 03:56:06 PM
WI 1) has a TON of fatfůcks and 2) is doing really well with vaccine numbers.
Over 65s and teachers should all be vaccinated soon. Evers should open it to all after that.
Quote from: Jockey on March 11, 2021, 05:27:19 PM
Over 65s and teachers should all be vaccinated soon. Evers should open it to all after that.
May for general public seems like the current target.
Supposedly Biden wants everyone eligible May 1.
Quote from: #UnleashDiener on March 11, 2021, 05:38:13 PM
May for general public seems like the current target.
Yeah, I figured it would be late April - May. I just think that with all of the supply we are now getting, as well as the most vulnerable taken care of, we just need to get shots in arms as fast as possible. Do that and we could get rid of the mask mandate in 60 days or less. Get back to feeling more normal.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 11, 2021, 04:28:01 PM
I really don't know if this is a problem. Most people don't really pay attention to anything that is going on in other states. Would strict national standards be better? I am not sure that's a question I can answer.
I have been following a MN vaccine hunters group on FB, and many people are
very aware of the different standards, especially in neighboring states. And I have seen it promote a feeling of unfairness when a person would be eligible in a neighboring state but not in their own. I also think inconsistent standards undermine public trust in the 'legitimacy' of the tiering system.
I don't know what the best system is, but I do think it would promote faith in the vaccine and the system generally if we at least had consistent standards.
I guess all the beer I've been drinking during the pandemic will help me now since I meet the overweight criteria for 1C in Wisconsin - I won't complain about being overweight this time :). That really surprised me - thought they were going to start with a BMI over 30 but I don't mind if I can get a shot sooner. Although I'm guessing it's going to be hard to get an appointment come March 29th - a lot of people in Wisconsin are going to meet that criteria.
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/pfizer-data-israel-finds-vaccine-123920134.html?guccounter=1
Seashells and balloons, guys.
Best news in a year.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 11, 2021, 06:06:05 PM
Supposedly Biden wants everyone eligible May 1.
With the hope of maybe (if we're lucky) then being able to get together with family and close friends for a 4th of July bbq 🤦♂️
Not the speech I was hoping to hear. Between the threat of imposing restrictions again and the general negativity around the message it just didn't seem to meet the moment or optimistic forward look after such a sh*tty last twelve months.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 11, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/pfizer-data-israel-finds-vaccine-123920134.html?guccounter=1
Seashells and balloons, guys.
Best news in a year.
💥💥💥💥💥💥 got Pfizer dose 1 this morning!
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 11, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/pfizer-data-israel-finds-vaccine-123920134.html?guccounter=1
Seashells and balloons, guys.
Best news in a year.
Terrific news! The development of so many highly effective vaccines in such a short period of time is one of the most remarkable things I have ever seen.
If everybody does their respective parts (getting vaccinated, wearing masks, etc), we should soon be back to normalcy.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 11, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/pfizer-data-israel-finds-vaccine-123920134.html?guccounter=1
Seashells and balloons, guys.
Best news in a year.
Doc was right, aina?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 11, 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Another example of the inconsistency of the guidelines among states. WI includes several conditions (like hypertension and asthma) that aren't in the CDC guidelines. FWIW, the data seem to indicate that WI is right and CDC is wrong. Still, the state to stat inconsistencies are maddening.
The CDC does include hypertension an asthma.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
It is just in a lower tier of confidence based on the number of available studies. They are included in "might be at increased risk". Many states simply link to the CDC page, and leave it up to physicians or the individual on where the cut off for "risk" occurs. I know may states include all of the "might be at increased risk" disorders.
Many also include a carve out indicating the list of disorders that qualify is not exhaustive, which makes it even harder to determine what is included.
Tons of confusion. That is one of the reasons I will not fault anyone for just signing up if they think they qualify based on medical conditions, provided they have a condition listed somewhere on the CDC page.
Quote from: forgetful on March 11, 2021, 09:56:49 PM
The CDC does include hypertension an asthma.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
It is just in a lower tier of confidence based on the number of available studies. They are included in "might be at increased risk". Many states simply link to the CDC page, and leave it up to physicians or the individual on where the cut off for "risk" occurs. I know may states include all of the "might be at increased risk" disorders.
Many also include a carve out indicating the list of disorders that qualify is not exhaustive, which makes it even harder to determine what is included.
Tons of confusion. That is one of the reasons I will not fault anyone for just signing up if they think they qualify based on medical conditions, provided they have a condition listed somewhere on the CDC page.
You are correct. I should have been more clear about the distinction.
But as you said, some states lump them all together and give them the same level of priority, whereas some (like here in Minnesota) leave hypertension and asthma until the end, so they are essentially in the general public pool. And there could be a third category, which might leave it up to the discretion of individual physicians. At the end of the day, the inconsistencies have led to considerable frustration.
Does it count if the anxiety over being unvaccinated is raising my blood pressure?
Quote from: warriorchick on March 11, 2021, 10:30:19 PM
Does it count if the anxiety over being unvaccinated is raising my blood pressure?
Worth a try. ::)
But the emotional/anxiety relief after getting the shots is a real thing. My wife and I are already planning a couple vacations starting in May.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2021, 09:40:00 PM
Doc was right, aina?
A clock tells you what time it's precise set of gears have turned the hands towards (after being set by someone else). That's the kind of information we get from 4ever.
This link, sez one particular vaccine does a pretty good job at preventing killing other people. Only a 6 percent chance you could make them sick and die. Yay!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 11, 2021, 09:19:08 PM
With the hope of maybe (if we're lucky) then being able to get together with family and close friends for a 4th of July bbq 🤦♂️
Not the speech I was hoping to hear. Between the threat of imposing restrictions again and the general negativity around the message it just didn't seem to meet the moment or optimistic forward look after such a sh*tty last twelve months.
So you watched this whole thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtQ-goeYY8s
And what you got out of it was that 'I can't go on a party cruise on the 4th of July?'??? Vaccine timeline has been pulled way up, things are on track to "normal" sooner than expected, and the front-man is 100% being honest and up-front. For all that, I'd expect a 🙏🙏 from you.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2021, 09:40:00 PM
Doc was right, aina?
Yeah butt, eye'm a pseudo health professional hoo duzant no stink 'bout medicine. Science iz reel, peeple ar knot, aina?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2021, 03:00:04 AM
So you watched this whole thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtQ-goeYY8s
And what you got out of it was that 'I can't go on a party cruise on the 4th of July?'??? Vaccine timeline has been pulled way up, things are on track to "normal" sooner than expected, and the front-man is 100% being honest and up-front. For all that, I'd expect a 🙏🙏 from you.
Yup that one.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2021, 05:10:58 PM
So serious.
Oh, it was supposed to be a joke. Hard to tell by the way it landed.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2021, 09:40:00 PM
Doc was right, aina?
Despite not knowing the results of the study, he did guess right. But you know what they say about blind squirrels, right?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 12, 2021, 05:14:15 AM
Everything kin, everything, hey?
If we're doing dick measuring about who was right and who was wrong regarding covid for the last twelve months, I think its safe to say your micropeen can be put back in your tighty whities. I'll get back to you when I'm done measuring mine, but menards was all out of tape measures last I checked. Anyone got one of these sitting around?
(https://media.tractorsupply.com/is/image/TractorSupplyCompany/4009666?$456$)
Stick to teeth.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 11, 2021, 09:19:08 PM
With the hope of maybe (if we're lucky) then being able to get together with family and close friends for a 4th of July bbq 🤦♂️
Not the speech I was hoping to hear. Between the threat of imposing restrictions again and the general negativity around the message it just didn't seem to meet the moment or optimistic forward look after such a sh*tty last twelve months.
Blind optimism are predictions that we will be able to get together over Easter. July 4 is realistic and can always be moved up if things go well.
(I do think the "no large crowds" thing is going to be completely ignored.)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 12, 2021, 07:46:58 AM
Blind optimism are predictions that we will be able to get together over Easter. July 4 is realistic and can always be moved up if things go well.
(I do think the "no large crowds" thing is going to be completely ignored.)
Memorial day I think we are looking at full open unless we run into shortages and/or problems.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 12, 2021, 07:46:58 AM
Blind optimism are predictions that we will be able to get together over Easter. July 4 is realistic and can always be moved up if things go well.
(I do think the "no large crowds" thing is going to be completely ignored.)
When I first heard July 4th, I thought WTF. However, if everyone gets their first dose by end of May, you'd probably be fully vaccinated mid-June with the second dose plus time needed to gain the immunity.
It kind of strikes me as a low bar. Similar to the 1M/day when we were doing that before Biden took office. I mean unvaccinated people are already gathering in that way. I agree that Memorial Day is more likely.
OT: MU's Center for Supply Chain did a cool presentation with executives from UPS on their process to distribute the vaccine. It was really interesting.
https://www.marquette.edu/business/supply-chain/symposium.php
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 12, 2021, 07:54:39 AM
Memorial day I think we are looking at full open unless we run into shortages and/or problems.
Agree. Easier to move the deadline earlier than later.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 12, 2021, 06:07:20 AM
If we're doing dick measuring about who was right and who was wrong regarding covid for the last twelve months, I think its safe to say your micropeen can be put back in your tighty whities. I'll get back to you when I'm done measuring mine, but menards was all out of tape measures last I checked. Anyone got one of these sitting around?
(https://media.tractorsupply.com/is/image/TractorSupplyCompany/4009666?$456$)
Stick to teeth.
Deal kin, if you promise to stick to medical transportation, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 12, 2021, 08:55:19 AM
Deal kin, if you promise to stick to medical transportation, hey?
I guess it hurts to be constantly owned by someone who only holds a BS.
Always better to under-promise and over-deliver than vice versa.
Better to say July 4 when Memorial Day likely than to say cases "will be close to zero within days" or "like a miracle it will disappear."
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 12, 2021, 09:00:14 AM
I guess it hurts to be constantly owned by someone who only holds a BS.
Owned? You'd soon be outbid on Ebay, aina?
Quote from: MU82 on March 12, 2021, 09:08:16 AM
Always better to under-promise and over-deliver than vice versa.
Better to say July 4 when Memorial Day likely than to say cases "will be close to zero within days" or "like a miracle it will disappear."
Plus its dependent on all of us taking the vaccine. If you paint something too optimistic and we don't get uptake on the behavior/have a big spike somewhere, then you look like an idiot.
Also the May date in my opinion should be a slam dunk that everyone will have access....my guess is that one was more for the laggard states in vaccine deployment.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 12, 2021, 09:42:55 AM
Owned? You'd soon be outbid on Ebay, aina?
Sorry, I'll stop using internet jargon around you, fam.
Quote from: MU82 on March 12, 2021, 09:08:16 AM
Always better to under-promise and over-deliver than vice versa.
Better to say July 4 when Memorial Day likely than to say cases "will be close to zero within days" or "like a miracle it will disappear."
Scotty G should be the one and only voice on marketing the back to normal message, guy is just amazing. I certainly understand the under promise over deliver approach but when you under promise so extremely that it makes you look detached/uninformed it hurts credibility and a good chunk of the country will tune you out.
I mean the vast majority of the country was getting together for outdoor 4th celebrations last year for crying out loud.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CNBC/status/1370393141413609476
Well thats a weird thing to get hung up on.
If people got together last july 4th, they are probably getting together regardless of what date is thrown out.
I think its realistic that by the end of June everyone who wants to be is fully vaccinated. For some that's important and putting a date on it, even if it proves to be conservative, and is how you communicate in crises.
I think, like the 100 million doses in the first 100 days, it is an easy, alliterative shorthand for the goal. The 100 million doses are going to be given in the first 60 days. If production holds up, opening it up to all before May 1 is doable, but May 1 is a clear and easy target. And if that happens, almost everybody is going to be peeling their masks off on their own before that. But July 4 is an easily recognizable national celebration. Tying the vaccinations to a patriotic theme is just good marketing.
Potential potholes are variants infecting teenagers, side effects, and production issues. Also, I have to assume they are already planning on booster shots for the fall.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 12, 2021, 10:05:11 AM
I mean the vast majority of the country was getting together for outdoor 4th celebrations last year for crying out loud.
And that turned out so well, ai'na?
Quote from: MU82 on March 12, 2021, 09:08:16 AM
Always better to under-promise and over-deliver than vice versa.
Better to say July 4 when Memorial Day likely than to say cases "will be close to zero within days" or "like a miracle it will disappear."
Bingo. The former occupant made one failed promise after another ("You have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero." (Feb 26, 2020); "Just stay calm. It will go away." (March 10, 2020); "One day, it's like a miracle, it will disappear." (Feb 28, 2020); back to normal before Easter; approved vaccines by last October; etc). It's refreshing to have someone give us goals we can actually achieve, while also delivering the realistic tone that we are all responsible for making it happen.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 12, 2021, 10:20:58 AM
Well thats a weird thing to get hung up on.
If people got together last july 4th, they are probably getting together regardless of what date is thrown out.
Yep. Especially since July 4th gatherings likely contributed to last year's summertime peak (~70k cases/day on July 24).
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 12, 2021, 10:27:32 AM
And that turned out so well, ai'na?
Bingo. The former occupant made one failed promise after another ("You have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero." (Feb 26, 2020); "Just stay calm. It will go away." (March 10, 2020); "One day, it's like a miracle, it will disappear." (Feb 28, 2020); back to normal before Easter; approved vaccines by last October; etc). It's refreshing to have someone give us goals we can actually achieve, while also delivering the realistic tone that we are all responsible for making it happen.
I thought we're forgiving the misguidance given early on by damn near everyone? Behind the scenes and publicly the experts were saying the same damn thing.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 12, 2021, 10:31:13 AM
Yep. Especially since July 4th gatherings likely contributed to last year's summertime peak (~70k cases/day on July 24).
How do you know the summer surge wouldn't have been worse if everyone who gathered outside decided to go to a grocery store, go into work instead of taking vacation, etc..
Quote from: tower912 on March 12, 2021, 10:26:49 AM
I think, like the 100 million doses in the first 100 days, it is an easy, alliterative shorthand for the goal. The 100 million doses are going to be given in the first 60 days. If production holds up, opening it up to all before May 1 is doable, but May 1 is a clear and easy target. And if that happens, almost everybody is going to be peeling their masks off on their own before that. But July 4 is an easily recognizable national celebration. Tying the vaccinations to a patriotic theme is just good marketing.
Potential potholes are variants infecting teenagers, side effects, and production issues. Also, I have to assume they are already planning on booster shots for the fall.
I agree attaching it the 4th could have been a great patriotic link. If the message would have been if everyone gets vaccinated before then we'll have a country with full baseball stadiums, packed fields of Americans watching firework shows, and a return to normal.
Not the message of if we all get vaccinated we can go see mom and dad and our siblings for a small bbq gathering.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 12, 2021, 10:20:58 AM
Well thats a weird thing to get hung up on.
If people got together last july 4th, they are probably getting together regardless of what date is thrown out.
I think its realistic that by the end of June everyone who wants to be is fully vaccinated. For some that's important and putting a date on it, even if it proves to be conservative, and is how you communicate in crises.
I'm not hung up on it was just disappointed. We've talked about it on and off on Scoop the importance of messaging a return to normal to encourage as many folks as possible to get shots asap. Simply made a comment that I feel his address last night missed that mark.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 12, 2021, 10:37:17 AM
I thought we're forgiving the misguidance given early on by damn near everyone? Behind the scenes and publicly the experts were saying the same damn thing.
Only selectively when it suits agendas, hey.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 12, 2021, 09:43:48 AM
Plus its dependent on all of us taking the vaccine.
That could be the bump in the road. We have 30% of people saying they aren't going to take the vaccine. If we get to 70% vaccinated plus whatever additional % has already had COVID maybe we reach herd immunity (?)
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 12, 2021, 10:44:42 AM
I'm not hung up on it was just disappointed. We've talked about it on and off on Scoop the importance of messaging a return to normal to encourage as many folks as possible to get shots asap. Simply made a comment that I feel his address last night missed that mark.
I am fine with you bringing something up, you seemed hung up on it because you brought it up multiple times.
IMO, It's not realistic to be more optimistic.
We are six weeks out from first shots available to all in my state - which is one of the best in the country on 1st shot coverage. Its another ~5 weeks or so to full immunity (guess but probably close) assuming you get the second shot at the right time. So if everyone received the vaccine on that timeline, we hit memorial day. Reality is probably closer to 'everyone you can make an appt beginning in 6 weeks. So my timeline is aggressive by a few weeks + things never go perfect so add a few more weeks. That's July 4th.
My state is ahead of the country which means many states are still weeks (if not more) behind us.
Realism is very important as long as this remains a supply, demand, throughput problem.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 12, 2021, 11:03:49 AM
which is one of the best in the country on 1st shot coverage.
Connecticut (I think ?) is doing great - and many states are hot on their tail. But clicking through the CDC map, I was surprised how much ass NM and AK were kicking in the shots/100k metric (over 40k), especially given a difficult population density. Followed by ND and SD.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 12, 2021, 11:03:49 AM
I am fine with you bringing something up, you seemed hung up on it because you brought it up multiple times.
IMO, It's not realistic to be more optimistic.
He was hoping for a more honest President. Biden should have told us that the miracle has happened and the virus has magically disappeared.
Instead he listened to the crazies on FQX and parroted their ramblings here.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/03/12/covid-vaccine-michigan-eligibility/4665331001/
I will be on spring break then. With my vaccinated daughter in Maryland. But Michigan opening up to anyone over 16 on April 5.
May 1 is an easy demarcation. As is July 4.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2021, 11:46:07 AM
Connecticut (I think ?) is doing great - and many states are hot on their tail. But clicking through the CDC map, I was surprised how much ass NM and AK were kicking in the shots/100k metric (over 40k), especially given a difficult population density. Followed by ND and SD.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations
Yes CT here - I hope everyone catches up to us.
AK is interesting, they opened it up to all. Which makes sense with the lower population density. If the shot comes to town, everyone line up and take it.
Quote from: Jockey on March 12, 2021, 12:14:23 PM
He was hoping for a more honest President. Biden should have told us that the miracle has happened and the virus has magically disappeared.
Instead he listened to the crazies on FQX and parroted their ramblings here.
You are not a serious person.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on March 12, 2021, 10:37:17 AM
I thought we're forgiving the misguidance given early on by damn near everyone? Behind the scenes and publicly the experts were saying the same damn thing.
Guidance that was based on the best medical information available at the time - yes.
Guidance that was recognized as bat-sh!t crazy even at the time - no.
Use your intelligence to distinguish the two, instead of making sweeping generalizations in a feeble attempt to excuse the latter.
I don't hold grudges for mistakes made early. I hold grudges for not learning and doubling down on dumb.
Quote from: tower912 on March 12, 2021, 01:04:27 PM
I don't hold grudges for mistakes made early. I hold grudges for not learning and doubling down on dumb.
Agree. But I also distinguish between honest mistakes and deliberate misinformation.
Honest mistake: uncertainty a year ago about whether masks helped, because we were still learning about the virus and its transmissibility.
Deliberate misinformation: "just the flu."
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 12, 2021, 12:55:42 PM
Guidance that was based on the best medical information available at the time - yes.
Guidance that was recognized as bat-sh!t crazy even at the time - no.
Use your intelligence to distinguish the two, instead of making sweeping generalizations in a feeble attempt to excuse the latter.
Ahhh, thanks for clarifying the rules.
Rolling 7-day average now > 2.5m shots/day
https://twitter.com/ArmstrongDrew/status/1370879433746305025
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 14, 2021, 10:02:26 AM
Rolling 7-day average now > 2.5m shots/day
https://twitter.com/ArmstrongDrew/status/1370879433746305025
I think it's more amazing to think that .. 10 days .. ~25m people. That's mind boggling.
(*Yes, 2nd doses.)
Yikes! More major EU countries halting use of the AZ vaccine over concern about blood clots. Still no causal link, but there must be pretty serious concern to slow the vaccination process just as Europe is encountering its third wave of cases.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/15/world/covid-19-coronavirus#germany-france-and-italy-are-the-latest-to-suspend-use-of-astrazenecas-vaccine
Found one place today starting to schedule for the week of 3/29 when 1C starts in Wisconsin - pretty excited to have an appointment scheduled now for 3/29. And I owe it all to the local Facebook group dedicated to helping people find vaccine doses - read about the place scheduling that week in there.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on March 15, 2021, 08:03:46 PM
Found one place today starting to schedule for the week of 3/29 when 1C starts in Wisconsin - pretty excited to have an appointment scheduled now for 3/29. And I owe it all to the local Facebook group dedicated to helping people find vaccine doses - read about the place scheduling that week in there.
Congratulations!
There is a Facebook group like that here in Minnesota as well, and it's absolutely amazing. I found an appointment by following tips I learned from the group. Then I got calls from a waitlist after I had already been vaccinated, so I passed those tips to other group members. At least two people got last-minute vaccines based on information I passed on.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 15, 2021, 08:09:08 PM
Congratulations!
There is a Facebook group like that here in Minnesota as well, and it%u2019s absolutely amazing. I found an appointment by following tips I learned from the group. Then I got calls from a waitlist after I had already been vaccinated, so I passed those tips to other group members. At least two people got last-minute vaccines based on information I passed on.
Thanks.
I joined the group last week trying to get tips on finding wait lists that would take you if you weren't already eligible for the vaccine. I thought I wasn't going to be eligible in 1C either so was worried about potentially waiting until May for my first shot. But then I found out Thursday afternoon I qualified for 1C but still worried about getting an appointment with so many people in that 1C group. But the Facebook group has been a great resource so far and it's restored some of my faith in humanity to see people so willing to help out others.
I passed along the scheduling tip for the week of 3/29 at work today and had a few people thank me. I'm just trying to return the favor by sharing the helpful information I found on the Facebook group.
I'm in the Chicago Vaccine Hunters group, and this morning I looked at my phone after I woke up, and immediately texted a friend alerting her that Walgreens had dropped a slew of appointments, she texted her sister, and her sister was scheduled within ten minutes. Last week I posted a link to some clinics in underserved communities that I found, and the next day someone posted to thank whoever posted it, as she had been able to schedule a couple of 90+ year old relatives at a park around the corner from their house. Score!
But man it is complicated - Walgreens drops appointments early, Jewel-Osco on weekends, a few medical practices at midnight - it's mind-boggling.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 15, 2021, 09:13:51 PM
I'm in the Chicago Vaccine Hunters group, and this morning I looked at my phone after I woke up, and immediately texted a friend alerting her that Walgreens had dropped a slew of appointments, she texted her sister, and her sister was scheduled within ten minutes. Last week I posted a link to some clinics in underserved communities that I found, and the next day someone posted to thank whoever posted it, as she had been able to schedule a couple of 90+ year old relatives at a park around the corner from their house. Score!
But man it is complicated - Walgreens drops appointments early, Jewel-Osco on weekends, a few medical practices at midnight - it's mind-boggling.
And some days Walgreens is later than others - I read today in Milwaukee that they were late dropping the appointments today. I've learned so much already about this process from about 5 days in the Facebook group. And heck the place I have my appointment at in two weeks I had never heard of until recently.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on March 15, 2021, 09:30:54 PM
And some days Walgreens is later than others - I read today in Milwaukee that they were late dropping the appointments today. I've learned so much already about this process from about 5 days in the Facebook group. And heck the place I have my appointment at in two weeks I had never heard of until recently.
It was the same with me. I got called off of waitlists from two places I didn't even know about before looking for vaccine appointments.
And it's really nice to have inadvertently developed some knowledge I can use to help others.
Connecticut just moved up the dates for all age groups yesterday. I can schedule mine on Friday (up from March 22).
My kids were originally May 2 and are now like April 19.
I love the fact that states are continuing to accelerate their vaccination timetables. Certainly a testament to everybody working to produce, distribute and administer the vaccines at an incredible pace.
But I worry that part of the acceleration is due to a distressingly high number of people who aren't getting the vaccine when eligible. A recent NPR/PBS/Marist survey showed that 49% of Republican men don't intend to get vaccinated. Add a general reluctance among blacks and latinos, and we have a recipe for another wave and the possible development of more new strains.
https://www.axios.com/concern-republican-coronavirus-vaccine-hesitancy-trump-6220b95e-f334-49c4-ad4f-854d5af6b76b.html
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 16, 2021, 09:06:14 AM
Connecticut just moved up the dates for all age groups yesterday. I can schedule mine on Friday (up from March 22).
My kids were originally May 2 and are now like April 19.
I got accelerated a week -- however -- they changed it to 16+ starting 4/5. So the free for is coming.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 16, 2021, 09:06:14 AM
Connecticut just moved up the dates for all age groups yesterday. I can schedule mine on Friday (up from March 22).
My kids were originally May 2 and are now like April 19.
Florida takes the free market Hunger Games approach. May the odds be ever in your favor, while skewing it in favor of the leadership favorites. Vaccines are far more available in the reddest parts of our state.
Just found out I'm a 1B as a "youth sports volunteer". I'm a 1C as a fat-ass, but I'll take what I can get.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 16, 2021, 11:37:51 AM
Just found out I'm a 1B as a "youth sports volunteer". I'm a 1C as a fat-ass, but I'll take what I can get.
Grats!
I would volunteer for youth sports, but there's a court order saying that's a no-no.
Wisconsin has moved up those with chronic illnesses to start next week March 22. My guess is that they will be open to everyone starting by mid April.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 16, 2021, 12:56:04 PM
Wisconsin has moved up those with chronic illnesses to start next week March 22. My guess is that they will be open to everyone starting by mid April.
So glad they did move it up as I was noticing there were a ton of appointments to be had now but didn't seem like there were a lot of 1A and 1B eligible people left who wanted a vaccine who hadn't gotten one yet. I was able to move up my appointment from 3/29 to 3/22 and am very excited about getting the vaccine soon. For awhile I wondered if I'd even have one shot before June and now I should have both doses by the end of April. And then sometime in May I should hopefully be able to see my parents in person for the first time in almost a year and a half...
https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1371593036166090755?s=19
Hmm
Posters on the Chicago Vaccine Hunters Group keep saying that there is a good amount of availability in places like Kenosha.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 16, 2021, 09:54:03 PM
Posters on the Chicago Vaccine Hunters Group keep saying that there is a good amount of availability in places like Kenosha.
Told ya, Jockey! ;D
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 16, 2021, 09:54:03 PM
Posters on the Chicago Vaccine Hunters Group keep saying that there is a good amount of availability in places like Kenosha.
The Kenosha vaccination clinic is a 3 wood from my office. The parking lot is filled with Illinois plates daily.
They truly do not care who gets the vaccine, just getting it into arms.
Second shot on Friday.
Could be people working in Wisconsin too
Is that a state or county run clinic , a private medical group , or what? People keep asking if they'll be turned away, and we generally tell them there's a residency requirement so they should call and check.
Nice to see the former president speak directly to his voters to tell them they should get the vaccine.
Seriously, it was important, and I hope it helps the nation's recovery effort.
Here y'all...I may be able to save your life.
If you fit into the categories now eligible for vaccinations, and are in the area, contact:
Infinity Pharmacy
2700 S. 60 St. 53219
(414) 988-0008
Time slots are readily available. Full disclosure, I receive no compensation for referrals. This is done from the goodness of my heart and the desire to get everyone vaccinated asap, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 17, 2021, 07:58:00 AM
Here y'all...I may be able to save your life.
If you fit into the categories now eligible for vaccinations, and are in the area, contact:
Infinity Pharmacy
2700 S. 60 St. 53219
(414) 988-0008
Time slots are readily available. Full disclosure, I receive no compensation for referrals. This is done from the goodness of my heart and the desire to get everyone vaccinated asap, hey?
Props, doc! 👍
Thanks I just texted it to someone I know.
First baby in U.S. born with antibodies against COVID-19 after mom receives dose of Moderna vaccine while pregnant
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-moderna-baby-born-antibodies/#app
At 36 weeks pregnant, a South Florida frontline health care worker received her first shot of the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine. She gave birth three weeks later to a healthy baby girl — with COVID-19 antibodies.
Doctors believe the newborn marks the first known case of a baby born with coronavirus antibodies in the U.S., which may offer her some protection against the virus.
Dose dos on board.
Quote from: tower912 on March 18, 2021, 01:18:46 PM
Dose dos on board.
Your language change there made me think you were loopy. dosis dos a bordo
Some think i am loopy for a number of reasons. Just going for alliteration.
The city of Greenfield sent me an email to schedule my 1st dose next Thursday.
Got my first dose yesterday.
100,000,000 landing Sunday. 58 days.
Quote from: tower912 on March 18, 2021, 01:18:46 PM
Dose dos on board.
Hope you're doing well. I seem to recall that dose uno was problematic for you, likely because of your earlier bout with Covid.
3.5 hours in. No issues so far. Knocking on my wooden noggin.
Quote from: tower912 on March 18, 2021, 04:44:41 PM
3.5 hours in. No issues so far. Knocking on my wooden noggin.
Pfizer or Moderna?
Now for some levity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeCwwYjf8gw
Don't click if you hate music, a man in his underwear, or foul language.
Do click if you're ain't no punk azz betch.
My wife is freaking out about friends and family in Poland.
Her friend in Poland got the first dose of AZ vaccine 4 weeks ago. Had been feeling fatigued & sick for a few days and just tested positive for COVID-19. I've been trying to explain about AZ possible limitable effectiveness for variants and still only 1 dose in. To compound fears, her friends brother is a anti-vaxxer doctor in Chicago of all things.
My wife is worried about her parents who I believe have had 2 doses of AZ already.
Quote from: tower912 on March 19, 2021, 07:01:22 AM
Pfizer.
So now that you've had both doses, how were the side effects?
Asking for a 'friend' who is due to get his second Pfizer shot in two weeks....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 19, 2021, 08:37:27 AM
So now that you've had both doses, how were the side effects?
Asking for a 'friend' who is due to get his second Pfizer shot in two weeks....
I got Pfizer and was pretty out of it after the second dose for about 24hrs. My fiancé also had Pfizer and was fine. No chills or anything crazy though.
I just scheduled my 1st shot for April 3.
Pfizer
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 19, 2021, 08:37:27 AM
So now that you've had both doses, how were the side effects?
Asking for a 'friend' who is due to get his second Pfizer shot in two weeks....
Pfizer. Headache the day after the first, nothing the day after the second. Sore arms both times.
Sore arms both times. More sore than flu shots. I have no idea what the side effects were with the second one as I got absolutely crushed at work and don't know whether the all over body aches are from the vaccine or fighting a fire all night. Probably a little of both.
As long as it's not like the 2nd shingles shot I had last week.
I was shivering all night even after alternating Tylenol & Motrin every 3 hours.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 19, 2021, 02:38:51 PM
As long as it's not like the 2nd shingles shot I had last week.
I was shivering all night even after alternating Tylenol & Motrin every 3 hours.
Shingles is basically the roughest vaccine that exists, so you should be fine.
Other than being exhausted the next day I was fine afterwards.
I'll still take the shivering for one night than getting shingles.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 19, 2021, 02:46:33 PM
Shingles is basically the roughest vaccine that exists, so you should be fine.
I had a horrible day after my second shingles shot. Felt like I had gotten hit by a truck -- twice. But my dad had shingles and was miserable for weeks, so a bad day or two from the shot was a small price to pay.
Here's hoping my second Moderna vaccine in a couple weeks isn't too bad. But again, I'd rather have a bad day than COVID-19.
Got second Moderna shot at 9am. Arm is significantly more sore than the first shot. Did get half a bucket of balls in.
No other effects yet...will update.
I know 2 people who are supposed get their second Pfizer dose at Walgreens this weekend but have not heard anything and are not able to schedule anything on their website (everything within 25 miles booked).
Any recommendations? Can they sign up at a different location/one of the vaccine specific sites like UWM?
I'll be in the same boat next weekend.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 19, 2021, 05:34:57 PM
I know 2 people who are supposed get their second Pfizer dose at Walgreens this weekend but have not heard anything and are not able to schedule anything on their website (everything within 25 miles booked).
Any recommendations? Can they sign up at a different location/one of the vaccine specific sites like UWM?
I'll be in the same boat next weekend.
To put your mind at ease a bit, you don't need your second shot 3 weeks to the day. It only needs to be longer than 3 weeks before you get your second shot.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 19, 2021, 05:42:01 PM
To put your mind at ease a bit, you don't need your second shot 3 weeks to the day. It only needs to be longer than 3 weeks before you get your second shot.
Gotcha, thanks. I thought there was like a 5 day window. So wasn't panicking, but with eligibility opening up it was a little worrisome.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 19, 2021, 05:43:13 PM
Gotcha, thanks. I thought there was like a 5 day window. So wasn't panicking, but with eligibility opening up it was a little worrisome.
Agree not to worry much - just keep trying to schedule.
There is a window, that was largely defined by how their trials were run. And in fact > 3 weeks isn't really known (again, just what they trialed). You've got about 85% effectiveness with one shot, get your second "booster" sometime, and as long your body reacts to it in some way you'll probably end up with 95%ish effectiveness.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 19, 2021, 05:34:57 PM
I know 2 people who are supposed get their second Pfizer dose at Walgreens this weekend but have not heard anything and are not able to schedule anything on their website (everything within 25 miles booked).
Any recommendations? Can they sign up at a different location/one of the vaccine specific sites like UWM?
I'll be in the same boat next weekend.
I know numerous people - including my wife and myself - who went to Walgreens. They scheduled the 2nd shot at the time we got the first onr. All of us.
Have your friend check the paperwork they received at the time of their 1st shot. It should be in there even if they weren't told about it.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 19, 2021, 05:42:01 PM
To put your mind at ease a bit, you don't need your second shot 3 weeks to the day. It only needs to be longer than 3 weeks before you get your second shot.
For Pfizer, they recommend 3 weeks, but it can be up to 6 weeks. My Pfizer shots are 4 weeks apart - because Walgreens never knew until each Monday whether they were getting Pfizer or Moderna (which recommends 4 weeks). So they just scheduled every 2nd shot 4 weeks out.
Walgreens has been a mess the last few weeks in scheduling , at least three glitches they have acknowledged. Their website supposedly allows scheduling a second shot if it wasn't able to be scheduled when the first was scheduled ( one of their glitches )like one day before it's due. If it is already in the system there should be an email the day before.
Here in the Chicago area if people are Cook or Lake county residents they can call the county scheduling lines -otherwise it's either CVS or Osco, I can't remember which.
I go today to the Wisconsin Center for my first shot - woo hoo! I've heard they have a very efficient operation going there.
Quote from: WithoutBias on March 19, 2021, 05:34:57 PM
I know 2 people who are supposed get their second Pfizer dose at Walgreens this weekend but have not heard anything and are not able to schedule anything on their website (everything within 25 miles booked).
Any recommendations? Can they sign up at a different location/one of the vaccine specific sites like UWM?
I'll be in the same boat next weekend.
You can go anywhere for the second, but it's not encouraged.
Quote from: Retire0 on March 20, 2021, 07:47:31 AM
You can go anywhere for the second, but it's not encouraged.
On the Wisconsin Vaccine Facebook group I'm in, I've seen a lot of posts saying that many places will not allow you to schedule a 2nd shot if you didn't get your first shot at that location.
I got both of mine at a local convention center with the process being overseen and staffed by the large local medical organizations. Staffing augmented by national guard. Doing several thousand vaccines a day. Lines feel a little like a ride at an amusement park.
Thanks all. The two who have their upcoming second doses were able to get something scheduled for tomorrow. One called the Walgreens, and they said they should get a call to schedule a second dose but that they have a window of 21-45 days or something. But then they got a call a couple hours later.
I'll probably call Walgreens next Friday if I don't hear anything. They did put 3/28/21 as the date on the back of my card to get the second shot, but I thought that was just telling you when you should get it and not an actual appointment for the shot. Worst case scenario I'll just go in on the 28th and at the very least try to get something scheduled with them in person.
I just scheduled first dose for Monday here in Burlington. Walgreens had me schedule the second dose at the same time. Walgreens website is not setup yet for the new eligibility next week, so I called and they said if you will be eligible, go ahead and choose a class that allows you to make the appointment and when you arrive you need to fill out paperwork to show you are eligible. So all set.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on March 20, 2021, 06:52:45 AM
I go today to the Wisconsin Center for my first shot - woo hoo! I've heard they have a very efficient operation going there.
I run with a nurse giving shots at the Wisconsin Center. Yes, she claims things have gone pretty smoothly.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 04, 2021, 08:30:20 AM
PSA .. interesting website for finding open vaccination appointments across the US:
https://www.vaccinespotter.org
Was able to schedule a J&J shot for tomorrow, thanks to this site. Best search one I have seen.
Thanks!
Quote from: bananahammock on March 20, 2021, 01:23:48 PM
I run with a nurse giving shots at the Wisconsin Center. Yes, she claims things have gone pretty smoothly.
The hardest part of the process was crossing the street safely afterwards to get to our car :). We were in and out of there pretty quickly and have our 2nd dose setup in 4 weeks - could have gone back in 3 weeks but they didn't have appointments then - oh well - I'll make it another week...
Does anyone have any good leads/tips for getting on wasted dose lists in the Milwaukee/Waukesha area? I have a friend who isn't eligible yet and is trying to get her vaccine as soon as possible. I know I ran into issues when I tried to get on waiting lists where a lot of places were only adding you to a waiting list if you were already eligible.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on March 20, 2021, 05:38:09 PM
Does anyone have any good leads/tips for getting on wasted dose lists in the Milwaukee/Waukesha area? I have a friend who isn't eligible yet and is trying to get her vaccine as soon as possible. I know I ran into issues when I tried to get on waiting lists where a lot of places were only adding you to a waiting list if you were already eligible.
I called Walgreens and the Wisconsin Center about a month ago and both said they'd put me on their lists. She could try that.
Quote from: BM1090 on March 20, 2021, 07:19:51 PM
I called Walgreens and the Wisconsin Center about a month ago and both said they'd put me on their lists. She could try that.
I passed along Walgreens to her but I ran into an issue with them with 3 different ones I called who wouldn't put me on their list because I wasn't eligible yet. But I also told her I have heard of a number of people getting extra doses by either calling Walgreens or stopping in near the end of the day.
Wisconsin Center switched from being run by the Milwaukee health department to FEMA recently and I thought I heard they weren't doing waiting lists now but it's worth checking out.
Thanks
J&J vaccine today at Walmart. Well run.
5 hours in, no side effects. Guy giving vaccine said he had same one and other than sore arm, no impact.
Found it through vaccinespotter.org. It seems most Floridians think you can only get the shot at Publix. Walmart and Walgreens seem to drop appointments after midnight.
Though now it should be harder with only 2 day notice dropping the age to 50. Sites will be slammed.
If you're still looking to book an appointment, just set your phone clock to an international time zone, Australia is what my wife and I used. Works like a charm, we both easily got appointments for tomorrow. I even was able to have options as to which vaccine with this method (went with Pfizer only because it was much closer than the J&J).
I was pleasantly surprised to see how many choices I had for sites and dates/times for vaccines in the greater Milwaukee area as a 1C eligible person. I got my first shot yesterday even when 1C officially starts tomorrow. I was expecting it to be much harder to get an appointment than it was.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 21, 2021, 04:29:57 PM
If you're still looking to book an appointment, just set your phone clock to an international time zone, Australia is what my wife and I used. Works like a charm, we both easily got appointments for tomorrow. I even was able to have options as to which vaccine with this method (went with Pfizer only because it was much closer than the J&J).
I have heard of that working here in Minnesota as well. People have been setting their clocks to London time, and grabbing appointments late at night, before other locals can see them.
Never tried it myself, as I got called from a wait list. Final Pfizer shot in 10 days!
Got appts for me and the old lady in Dodgeville this week.
A friend went to Janesville from Madison.
Seems to be more spots in rural/small cities than Madison/Milwaukee.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 21, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Got appts for me and the old lady in Dodgeville this week.
A friend went to Janesville from Madison.
Seems to be more spots in rural/small cities than Madison/Milwaukee.
Same here in MN. Lotsa people in twin cities are heading out of town to minimize the wait.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 21, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Got appts for me and the old lady in Dodgeville this week.
A friend went to Janesville from Madison.
Seems to be more spots in rural/small cities than Madison/Milwaukee.
I found a ton of openings in the greater Milwaukee area for this upcoming week and that's without even looking at Walgreen's where I know a lot of people have gone for the vaccine. I had my choice of several locations to go to and ended up picking the Wisconsin Center because they were taking 1C people a few days early and I could get in there yesterday. They had a super efficient operation going there too.
Same thing in the Chicago area. People heading to the state sites in Quincy for J&J, or to Springfield, Danville, even Carbondale. Booking Walgreens in the Peoria area. The state sites downstate, you could practically walk in right now and get a shot.
Maybe somewhat surprisingly, people have also been having more difficulty in the suburban collar counties, their health departments don't seem to have organized mass sites as quickly. Nor have most of the suburban areas announced plans for homebound people.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 21, 2021, 09:18:44 PM
Same thing in the Chicago area. People heading to the state sites in Quincy for J&J, or to Springfield, Danville, even Carbondale. Booking Walgreens in the Peoria area. The state sites downstate, you could practically walk in right now and get a shot.
Maybe somewhat surprisingly, people have also been having more difficulty in the suburban collar counties, their health departments don't seem to have organized mass sites as quickly. Nor have most of the suburban areas announced plans for homebound people.
You're not wrong, but I got mine scheduled for a Walgreens in Wheeling tomorrow (I'm in Elgin). But there are a ton available south of I-80, that's for sure.
fwiw, i have a nephew who has worked as an animator for south park for 10 + years. not exactly a hot bed of conservatives. viacom has sent all employees a contract with one of the stipulations that they MUST GET VACCINATED in order to return. they were supposed to resume writing 2 weeks or so ago, then it became last week. now, he has no idea when they will resume writing. according to him, he estimates about 40% are against the vaccine and may not sign the contract. hmmmm and this is los angeles, believe it or not. just saying
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 21, 2021, 09:52:17 PM
fwiw, i have a nephew who has worked as an animator for south park for 10 + years. not exactly a hot bed of conservatives. viacom has sent all employees a contract with one of the stipulations that they MUST GET VACCINATED in order to return. they were supposed to resume writing 2 weeks or so ago, then it became last week. now, he has no idea when they will resume writing. according to him, he estimates about 40% are against the vaccine and may not sign the contract. hmmmm and this is los angeles, believe it or not. just saying
So you're saying...about 40% of the population isn't exactly racing for the vaccine? Shocking:
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-february-2021/
Please get vaccinated folks.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 21, 2021, 10:27:48 PM
So you're saying...about 40% of the population isn't exactly racing for the vaccine? Shocking:
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-february-2021/
Please get vaccinated folks.
no, just a btw kinda thing. "rumor' has it that the vaccine thing was more along party lines. yes, i do realize it still may be heavier on the "R" side, but again, just saying...many people are wary of any kind of "forced" inoculations including fluoride. oh, and another btw, i'm all good with people not wanting fluoride. i'm just here to help...i do root canals and extractions too ;D
and btw III - i am vaccinated
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 21, 2021, 11:15:19 PM
no, just a btw kinda thing. "rumor' has it that the vaccine thing was more along party lines. yes, i do realize it still may be heavier on the "R" side, but again, just saying...many people are wary of any kind of "forced" inoculations including fluoride. oh, and another btw, i'm all good with people not wanting fluoride. i'm just here to help...i do root canals and extractions too ;D
and btw III - i am vaccinated
Please just read the link. It's not just an R thing. That may be the largest segment, but the link breaks it down well. For instance: "One-Third Of Young Adults And Black Adults, One-Quarter Of Hispanic Adults Want To "Wait And See" Before Getting Vaccinated".
Not everything is as partisan as you want to make it. Just pointing out the polls have shown slightly more than 40% are waiting or worse.. We need to encourage all to get vaccinated.
US study shows Astra Zeneca vaccine 79% effective with no serious side effects. The company plans to seek emergency use authorization soon. As the article below mentions, it probably won't make a huge difference in the US, but it might help bolster worldwide confidence in the vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/22/business/astrazeneca-covid-vaccine.html
Quote from: Marquette Fan on March 21, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
I found a ton of openings in the greater Milwaukee area for this upcoming week and that's without even looking at Walgreen's where I know a lot of people have gone for the vaccine. I had my choice of several locations to go to and ended up picking the Wisconsin Center because they were taking 1C people a few days early and I could get in there yesterday. They had a super efficient operation going there too.
My wife and I were both able to find openings through the Pick n Save pharmacy this week. The process would often show an opening which would be claimed before I could hit submit, but through a number of refreshes, I was able to get in tomorrow. I also tried a few different zip codes, since the radius offered is only 20 miles. That seemed to help find new openings as well.
First one done. Shots in, so I can finally get some shots up.
Evers OKs dentists to vaccinate as millions become eligible
https://apnews.com/article/wisconsin-coronavirus-pandemic-cde50b0da629795387dab573a2f0aac2
Perhaps Scoop's resident dentists can help get WI vaccinated more quickly.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 22, 2021, 04:08:27 PM
Evers OKs dentists to vaccinate as millions become eligible
https://apnews.com/article/wisconsin-coronavirus-pandemic-cde50b0da629795387dab573a2f0aac2
Perhaps Scoop's resident dentists can help get WI vaccinated more quickly.
break out the nitrous oxide.
First dose in for me as well. Quite honestly feels invigorating and a real sense of hope.
Holy mother of god:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/krispy-kreme-free-doughnut-every-day-2021-covid-19-vaccination-card/
When arby's follows suit, look out.
Is there a list of participating locations?
I was able to smell sulfur off a powder gun yesterday!
AstraZeneca has been a bit of a mess.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/03/23/astrazeneca-may-have-used-outdated-information-in-announcing-covid19-vaccine-results/
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 21, 2021, 11:41:48 PM
Please just read the link. It's not just an R thing. That may be the largest segment, but the link breaks it down well. For instance: "One-Third Of Young Adults And Black Adults, One-Quarter Of Hispanic Adults Want To "Wait And See" Before Getting Vaccinated".
Not everything is as partisan as you want to make it. Just pointing out the polls have shown slightly more than 40% are waiting or worse.. We need to encourage all to get vaccinated.
i saw that rocky and if you read my post, you would've noted that my example, southpark employees, anecdotal as it may seem to some, shows that vaccine/no vaccine does not follow party lines and therefore NOT partisan. both sides, for their own reasons, are choosing not to get vaccinated. that's kinda what i was trying to point out while at the same time, proactively noting that some of the polls were showing it to be a partisan thing. i really don't care. i respect individuals own choices. just as not everyone likes to floss, i may not agree with them, i'm just here to help
Quote from: rocket surgeon on March 23, 2021, 12:21:22 PM
i saw that rocky and if you read my post, you would've noted that my example, southpark employees, anecdotal as it may seem to some, shows that vaccine/no vaccine does not follow party lines and therefore NOT partisan. both sides, for their own reasons, are choosing not to get vaccinated. that's kinda what i was trying to point out while at the same time, proactively noting that some of the polls were showing it to be a partisan thing. i really don't care. i respect individuals own choices. just as not everyone likes to floss, i may not agree with them, i'm just here to help
Your story is appreciated, though anecdotal.
Vaccine acceptance and acquirement IS a partisan divide:
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2021/03/05/growing-share-of-americans-say-they-plan-to-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-or-already-have/
"Partisan differences, which have long characterized views about the outbreak, are increasingly seen in vaccine intent. Democrats are now 27 percentage points more likely than Republicans to say they plan to get, or have already received, a coronavirus vaccine (83% to 56%). This gap is wider than those seen at multiple points in 2020."
That's the non-anecdotal reality.
Quote from: Non-Salesperson Time-Waster on March 23, 2021, 12:08:52 PM
AstraZeneca has been a bit of a mess.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/03/23/astrazeneca-may-have-used-outdated-information-in-announcing-covid19-vaccine-results/
Wow. Having worked in the regulatory side of the clinical research enterprise for 20+ years, I find it astonishing that AZ would issue a press release that totally ignores significant concerns raised by the DSMB. In addition to the reputational hit from this ethically questionable move, they just opened themselves up to potential shareholder lawsuits.
Very disappointing.
Part of that Pfizer gang...round 1 done, only side effects was a sore ass arm the next day, day two was fine...just iced from time to time.
Last fall and early winter, the upper midwest was the epicenter of the Covid surge in the US, and everything seemed to be going wrong. But to give credit where credit is due, the upper midwest now has 4 of the top 7 states in terms of percentage of Covid vaccines getting into arms:
1. Wisconsin (94.15%)
3. North Dakota (92.29%)
4. Minnesota (91.74%)
7. Iowa (89.39%)
Illinois, Michigan, Indiana and South Dakota are also in the top half.
Kudos to midwesterners for getting it done!
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-covid-19-vaccines-administered.html
Anyone else get Moderna and feel super fatigued the day after? My arm obviously still hurts (which is fine and expected), but I'm super groggy and tired the day after.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 23, 2021, 06:04:42 PM
Anyone else get Moderna and feel super fatigued the day after? My arm obviously still hurts (which is fine and expected), but I'm super groggy and tired the day after.
My daughter got Moderna last week and said she was really tired for a couple of days. She was back to normal by day 3. She also had a sore arm for 2-3 days, but was otherwise fine.
I was tired the day after my second.
There are at least two counties in downstate Illinois giving the vaccine to any of their residents over 18 ( Moderna) because appointments are going begging
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 23, 2021, 06:40:09 PM
My daughter got Moderna last week and said she was really tired for a couple of days. She was back to normal by day 3. She also had a sore arm for 2-3 days, but was otherwise fine.
Thanks, that's good to know. It honestly feels like bad jet lag is how I would describe it. Hoping like your daughter, it goes away by like Thursday.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 23, 2021, 06:41:53 PM
I was tired the day after my second.
There are at least two counties in downstate Illinois giving the vaccine to any of their residents over 18 ( Moderna) because appointments are going begging
Appointments have been much easier to come by in the Milwaukee area than I expected since 1C started. I have a feeling they'll be moving to making everyone eligible a good bit before May 1st. But I also hope that vaccination sites do have some sort of waiting list they are using so doses aren't wasted. I know many places had only been allowing people to go on waiting lists who were already eligible. But I think we're getting close to the point in Wisconsin that most people who want to get vaccinated have been able to make appointments.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 23, 2021, 06:04:42 PM
Anyone else get Moderna and feel super fatigued the day after? My arm obviously still hurts (which is fine and expected), but I'm super groggy and tired the day after.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 23, 2021, 06:40:09 PM
My daughter got Moderna last week and said she was really tired for a couple of days. She was back to normal by day 3. She also had a sore arm for 2-3 days, but was otherwise fine.
This was my experience after the 2nd Moderna dose also. Jetlag was a good way to describe it.
Wife got her first Pfizer shot today, I'm set up for mine next Tuesday. Georgia just opened up to anybody over 16 today officially so pretty amazing she was able to find appointments that quickly at a small compounding pharmacy. All the large retail chains were showing no availability.
Georgia is near the bottom in terms of distribution per the CDC- are they opening it to everyone because people aren't taking it?
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 25, 2021, 06:44:33 PM
Georgia is near the bottom in terms of distribution per the CDC- are they opening it to everyone because people aren't taking it?
I don't know why, and I don't really care. I'm just happy to finally get it.
With the large AA and MAGA populations here, I suspect that a lot of folks are not that interested but that's just speculation.
arizona just opened up vaccinations to all 16 and up
rutgers is only allowing vaccinated students back this fall
https://news.yahoo.com/rutgers-university-require-vaccination-students-195600441.html
Got my second yesterday afternoon. Was feeling fine until this afternoon. Maybe it was the Shaka induced adrenaline that got me through the morning!
Now I just feel blah. Slight fever. Slightly tired.
2nd moderna for my wife and I yesterday around 1pm. both of just feel like we have total lack of energy. also some body ache. arm pain is way less than 1. had a slight fever. heard this is just the thing. looking forward to other side.
Scumbags are gonna be scumbags.
Criminal groups selling fake COVID-19 vaccines on dark web, WHO warns
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/consumerism/criminal-groups-selling-fake-covid-19-vaccines-on-dark-web-who-warns.html
Chili & Fluff...glad to hear you're done. That day after was ROUGH, my fever had been hovering around 99.6 most of the day and by 8pm I was beyond wiped out and spiked over 100.
Woke up the next day totally fine (except sore arm). 3 weeks until I get the second dose and will be ecstatic to be done (sans feeling that groggy jet lag type tiredness again).
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 26, 2021, 07:13:15 PM
Scumbags are gonna be scumbags.
Criminal groups selling fake COVID-19 vaccines on dark web, WHO warns
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/consumerism/criminal-groups-selling-fake-covid-19-vaccines-on-dark-web-who-warns.html
That's why you don't get your shot at the off-brand dollar store.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 26, 2021, 10:00:56 PM
Chili & Fluff...glad to hear you're done. That day after was ROUGH, my fever had been hovering around 99.6 most of the day and by 8pm I was beyond wiped out and spiked over 100.
Woke up the next day totally fine (except sore arm). 3 weeks until I get the second dose and will be ecstatic to be done (sans feeling that groggy jet lag type tiredness again).
Wife and I got the 1st dose of moderna this week, no issues.
Did you have covid? I've heard that people that had it, even asymptomatic, the 1st shot is the one
that kills them knocks them on their ass. Anyone else hear this?
Edit: changed a very poorly used phrase.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 26, 2021, 10:36:37 PM
Wife and I got the 1st dose of moderna this week, no issues.
Did you have covid? I've heard that people that had it, even asymptomatic, the 1st shot is the one that kills them. Anyone else hear this?
Yep. I'm pretty sure that's what happened to tower.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 26, 2021, 10:13:36 PM
That's why you don't get your shot at the off-brand dollar store.
Worse thing is then they get fake Krispy Kreme donuts.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 26, 2021, 10:36:37 PM
Wife and I got the 1st dose of moderna this week, no issues.
Did you have covid? I've heard that people that had it, even asymptomatic, the 1st shot is the one that kills them knocks them on their ass. Anyone else hear this?
Edit: changed a very poorly used phrase.
To my knowledge I never had it.
I had the Pfizer. And I had a moderate case in November. Day after dose 1 was mild body aches, chills, lack of wind. Like a very mild case for me.
Dose 2 was compounded by a big fire and I am old. So I don't know where the causality for the body aches lies.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on March 26, 2021, 10:00:56 PM
Chili & Fluff...glad to hear you're done. That day after was ROUGH, my fever had been hovering around 99.6 most of the day and by 8pm I was beyond wiped out and spiked over 100.
Woke up the next day totally fine (except sore arm). 3 weeks until I get the second dose and will be ecstatic to be done (sans feeling that groggy jet lag type tiredness again).
That is exactly how my day went yesterday. Kept getting worse and worse until I called it a day and went to bed around 8:30. I am still pretty groggy this morning but we will see what happens when I get some coffee in me. And my wife, who has two or three bad colds every year, is bouncing around the house with no side effects.
Quote from: tower912 on March 27, 2021, 05:52:00 AM
I had the Pfizer. And I had a moderate case in November. Day after dose 1 was mild body aches, chills, lack of wind. Like a very mild case for me.
Dose 2 was compounded by a big fire and I am old. So I don't know where the causality for the body aches lies.
My wife and I - and 92 year old mother-in law - all felt fine after the 2nd pfizer. The 2nd day our arms were very slightly sore - only felt it when pressing the spot.
Was expecting issues as we heard numerous stories from friends about after effects.
Quote from: Jockey on March 27, 2021, 12:22:45 PM
My wife and I - and 92 year old mother-in law - all felt fine after the 2nd pfizer. The 2nd day our arms were very slightly sore - only felt it when pressing the spot.
Was expecting issues as we heard numerous stories from friends about after effects.
I hope my experience is like yours. I'm getting my 2nd Pfizer shot Wednesday.
Tylenol and Benadryl.
Quote from: tower912 on March 27, 2021, 04:58:56 PM
Tylenol and Benadryl.
I was worried and had them ready just in case, but didn't need either.
It has been 48 hours since my first shot of Modena. My moderate shoulder pain is starting to dissipate. It is not painful enough to interrupt sleep, it's about as bad as the shoulder pain from the Typhoid vaccination.
Have you all signed up for v-safe? Helps the CDC track side effects with a daily text that you respond to. I told people Dr Fauci was checking on me everyday
Getting my second Pfizer shot now. They said they are doing walk ins today. 2625 W. National Ave. if anyone needs. Would probably try to get in as early as possible.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 28, 2021, 08:46:34 AM
Have you all signed up for v-safe? Helps the CDC track side effects with a daily text that you respond to. I told people Dr Fauci was checking on me everyday
Hadn't heard of this .. links for the lazy:
https://vsafe.cdc.gov/en/
Video explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxl-gGXkMw
Basically you register your vacination date, brand, and maybe lot#, and it texts you every day with a link. You click the link, then answer whether you are good, ok, or poor.
So day 3, and although I had one too many Foggy Geezers last night, am feeling just fine. Arm soreness even completely gone.
so update. the day after side effects (lethargic, body ache, fever spiked to 100.7) were all manageable but annoying af. i tried to do some excel work and it was a pain to concentrate and pretty sure i would have to redo any strings i would type. woke up yesterday (2 days after 2nd dose) felt like normal with just a twinge of arm pain. today, 3 days post shot, 100%. now looking forward to getting this ship sailing again - just not thru suez.
Got my first Moderna shot on Friday. Arm is still a little sore, but otherwise no adverse symptoms.
While we were waiting to get our shots, a middle-aged guy who was shopping in the store came up to us and said something along the lines of, "So, you aren't afraid to do this?" We told him absolutely not; our nurse daughter, who caught Covid while working on the Covid floor of her hospital, got the shot a few weeks ago, and we will be doing the same.
Let's hope that was enough for him to get it.
Yesterday besides the sore arm I had a headache and felt a bit 'off' much of the day. By evening the latter two symptoms were essentially gone and chick and I went to the drive-in movie. Saw Nobody. Enjoyed it.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 28, 2021, 09:17:50 AM
Hadn't heard of this .. links for the lazy:
https://vsafe.cdc.gov/en/
Video explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxl-gGXkMw
Basically you register your vacination date, brand, and maybe lot#, and it texts you every day with a link. You click the link, then answer whether you are good, ok, or poor.
Everyone should do this. It is one way in which the CDC can track those that got the vaccine.
Quote from: Jockey on March 28, 2021, 03:35:14 PM
Everyone should do this. It is one way in which the CDC can track those that got the vaccine.
You mean besides the 5G chips...
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 28, 2021, 08:46:34 AM
Have you all signed up for v-safe? Helps the CDC track side effects with a daily text that you respond to. I told people Dr Fauci was checking on me everyday
Yep. This is some thing everyone should do. For those who haven't signed up yet, the questionnaires take about a minute to answer. Simple, and provides even more detailed information on rates of side effects.
Quote from: TSmith34 on March 28, 2021, 03:43:25 PM
You mean besides the 5G chips...
If we get one of the two-shot vaccines, do they work together to make it a 10G chip?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 28, 2021, 03:45:28 PM
If we get one of the two-shot vaccines, do they work together to make it a 10G chip?
Don't be stupid. One is for GSM chip and one is for CDMA, so that they can track you regardless of what cell tower is close by. ;D :P
How long after the shot did people start getting side effects?
Quote from: BLM on March 28, 2021, 09:21:27 PM
How long after the shot did people start getting side effects?
Ears started ringing within an hour.
Bill Gates was calling. Did you pick up?
Quote from: BLM on March 28, 2021, 09:21:27 PM
How long after the shot did people start getting side effects?
Middle leg fell off the next day, hey?
Quote from: BLM on March 28, 2021, 09:21:27 PM
How long after the shot did people start getting side effects?
Started feeling really groggy after about 18 hours. Went to bed with a slight fever about six hours after that. Woke up the next morning with no fever but still tired. Pretty much 100% 24 hours after onset of symptoms.
Got the J&J vaccine last Wednesday, no side effects at all.
Got my second Pfizer shot on Friday. Was a little achy and tired on Saturday, but that was pretty minor. My arm was less sore than the first.
My phone is searching stuff even before I think of it. So that's a nice perk.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 29, 2021, 09:35:29 AM
Got my second Pfizer shot on Friday. Was a little achy and tired on Saturday, but that was pretty minor. My arm was less sore than the first.
My phone is searching stuff even before I think of it. So that's a nice perk.
;D
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 29, 2021, 09:35:29 AM
Got my second Pfizer shot on Friday. Was a little achy and tired on Saturday, but that was pretty minor. My arm was less sore than the first.
My phone is searching stuff even before I think of it. So that's a nice perk.
My computer automatically bought a lifetime subscription to Office 360.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 29, 2021, 03:38:09 PM
My computer automatically bought a lifetime subscription to Office 360.
Is that the counterfeit version of office 365? 5 days a year it posts spam on Scoop?
Almost 36 hours after dose 2 and the only side effect I've had was a sore shoulder for about 6 hours.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 29, 2021, 06:04:55 PM
If that the counterfeit version of office 365? 5 days a year is posts spam on Scoop?
It's counterfeit, but more expensive. And owned directly by Bill Gates.
Mecklenburg County, the largest county in NC, is allowing anybody 16+ and older to be vaccinated. Love hearing that!
13 hours post shot #2. No issues...so far🤞
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 29, 2021, 06:04:55 PM
Is that the counterfeit version of office 365? 5 days a year it posts spam on Scoop?
It doesn't work on Xmas, Thanksgiving, 4th of July, Labor Day or Memorial day. It's the unionized version.
Are people in NC not taking the vaccine, so that's why Mecklenburg is expanding? I mean NC isn't anywhere near the top in rollout looking at the CDC data
Quote from: Warriors4ever on March 30, 2021, 09:47:39 AM
Are people in NC not taking the vaccine, so that's why Mecklenburg is expanding? I mean NC isn't anywhere near the top in rollout looking at the CDC data
Yes, vaccinations have been growing steadily here. We have been vaccinating health-care workers, teachers, those with underlying medical conditions, etc, like most of the country has. Starting next week, any adult in this county who wants a vaccine can get an appointment; the overall state is not quite there yet, but many counties are.
Quote from: MU82 on March 30, 2021, 06:51:28 AM
Mecklenburg County, the largest county in NC, is allowing anybody 16+ and older to be vaccinated. Love hearing that!
As mentioned in another thread, Sconnie goes 'full eligibility' next Monday. Good news.
CDC Director on MSNBC- "Our data from the CDC today suggest that vaccinated people do not carry the virus." Mentions both clinical and real-world studies.
This needs to be at the heart of the messaging addressing vaccine hesitancy.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 30, 2021, 02:46:15 PM
CDC Director on MSNBC- "Our data from the CDC today suggest that vaccinated people do not carry the virus." Mentions both clinical and real-world studies.
This needs to be at the heart of the messaging addressing vaccine hesitancy.
100% agree! Get that info out there and get a passport out, and those who have decided to participate in society responsibly vaccinated should be able to.
Got the first shot today and counting the days until April 27th.
Quote from: Goose on March 30, 2021, 05:19:10 PM
Got the first shot today and counting the days until April 27th.
You can't even imagine how liberated you will feel after finishing with the vaccine.
Here's hoping you get no side effects - I think they are less common than we are led to believe.
My company did a smart thing just now .. hourly folks get +2 hours of pay to get vaccinated, and everyone +8 into PTO when you are fully vaccinated.
Nice move on their part.
Quote from: Goose on March 30, 2021, 05:19:10 PM
Got the first shot today and counting the days until April 27th.
Same. First shot in at 9:15 this morning. Feeling fine so far
Quote from: Jockey on March 30, 2021, 05:53:48 PM
You can't even imagine how liberated you will feel after finishing with the vaccine.
Here's hoping you get no side effects - I think they are less common than we are led to believe.
It will be interesting to see how common side effects are once we have a dataset of hundreds of millions of patients. My anecdotal data from friends, family and Scoop is consistent with your suspicion that side effects are pretty rare.
At least I hope that's true, since my second Pfizer shot is tomorrow....
CDC says that 1 dose of moderna and Pfizer is 80% effective.
Also, CDC said that vaccinated people can't spread.
Both are yuge.
2nd round of moderna in for my wife and I. Next up will be making appointments for my 16 and 18 year olds
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 30, 2021, 02:46:15 PM
CDC Director on MSNBC- "Our data from the CDC today suggest that vaccinated people do not carry the virus." Mentions both clinical and real-world studies.
This needs to be at the heart of the messaging addressing vaccine hesitancy.
Does that mean no mask with a passport?
Quote from: injuryBug on March 30, 2021, 07:16:23 PM
Does that mean no mask with a passport?
We all wear the mask until we all don't wear the mask. Otherwise enforcement will be impossible.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 30, 2021, 07:08:57 PM
CDC says that 1 dose of moderna and Pfizer is 80% effective.
Also, CDC said that vaccinated people can't spread.
Both are yuge.
Whoa, that is indeed huge.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/03/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html
"Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don't get sick," Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, told MSNBC's Rachel Maddow on Tuesday. That's "not just in the clinical trials, but it's also in real-world data."
Walensky was referring to a new CDC study that suggests those fully inoculated with the vaccines produced by Moderna and Pfizer don't transmit the virus.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 30, 2021, 07:08:57 PM
CDC says that 1 dose of moderna and Pfizer is 80% effective.
Also, CDC said that vaccinated people can't spread.
Both are yuge.
Yes, both pieces of news are absolutely remarkable, and strong evidence that we can get COVID mostly behind us if everybody gets vaccinated as soon as possible.
And another piece of great news on the vaccine front:
Pfizer-BioNTech says Covid vaccine is 100% effective in kids ages 12 to 15
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/31/covid-vaccine-pfizer-says-shot-is-100percent-effective-in-kids-ages-12-to-15.html
Hopefully, usage in 12-15 year olds will be approved so middle and high school aged kids can be vaccinated by the fall.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 31, 2021, 09:20:24 AM
And another piece of great news on the vaccine front:
Pfizer-BioNTech says Covid vaccine is 100% effective in kids ages 12 to 15
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/31/covid-vaccine-pfizer-says-shot-is-100percent-effective-in-kids-ages-12-to-15.html
Hopefully, usage in 12-15 year olds will be approved so middle and high school aged kids can be vaccinated by the fall.
I see no reason why that timeline can't be reached.
My kids are 12 and 14 .. I'm thinking I should McLovin their IDs and bump them to 16 so they can get vaccinated now instead of waiting.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 31, 2021, 09:57:17 AM
My kids are 12 and 14 .. I'm thinking I should McLovin their IDs and bump them to 16 so they can get vaccinated now instead of waiting.
Do they look like Irish R&B singers?
But in all honesty, that's great news. Get schools vaccinated and a big transmission vector closes down.
Wow! A lot of great news the last few days. Science is amazing.
12 is 6th grade. i could never remember ages to grades before I had kids/had kids that age. So basically, all of high school and middle school can be vaccinated.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 30, 2021, 06:13:07 PM
My company did a smart thing just now .. hourly folks get +2 hours of pay to get vaccinated, and everyone +8 into PTO when you are fully vaccinated.
Nice move on their part.
I'm not sure if thats actually legal or not.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on March 31, 2021, 12:32:10 PM
I'm not sure if thats actually legal or not.
Don't know if it's illegal, but it might open companies up for preferential treatment/discrimination claims.
I don't think it is any different than giving someone a benefit for participating in wellness activities.
Quote from: Non-Salesperson Time-Waster on March 31, 2021, 01:24:40 PM
I don't think it is any different than giving someone a benefit for participating in wellness activities.
Agreed. In fact, it's far less restrictive than companies requiring proof of vaccination as a condition of employment. And even
that is probably legal if there are exemptions based on religious beliefs or health issues.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 31, 2021, 02:34:55 PM
Agreed. In fact, it's far less restrictive than companies requiring proof of vaccination as a condition of employment. And even that is probably legal if there are exemptions based on religious beliefs or health issues.
I think your profession is going to be busy in the coming years testing the reasonable border of these various restrictions. Should prove interesting case law reading.
Got my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine today.
The new chip is awesome! Anyone know how long the CIA covers the data plan?
Does yours help you read scoop on the inside of the lenses on your glasses?
Quote from: Non-Salesperson Time-Waster on March 31, 2021, 01:24:40 PM
I don't think it is any different than giving someone a benefit for participating in wellness activities.
This is correct. Or giving someone time off to participate in volunteer activities.
Quote from: tower912 on March 31, 2021, 03:22:08 PM
Does yours help you read scoop on the inside of the lenses on your glasses?
Yep, but there seems to be a glitch. I am seeing way too many posts by people who seem optimistic about the future of MU hoops.
Conspiracy. The CIA is controlling what you see in your glasses.
Not great J&J, 15 million doses ruined.
JFC
Quote from: reinko on March 31, 2021, 04:36:11 PM
Not great J&J, 15 million doses ruined.
This probably speaks to the hurried nature of this, and trying to get it out quickly, but usually you bake a test cake before you bake 15M of them. Sell Emergent!
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/545856-shipments-of-johnson-johnson-vaccine-halted
QuoteThe plant in Baltimore is run by Emergent Biosolutions, and workers mixed up the ingredients in the vaccine, the Times reported.
The error does not affect doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine that have already been distributed, since those were made in the Netherlands, but it impacts future shipments of the vaccine, according to the Times.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 31, 2021, 03:02:51 PM
Got my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine today.
The new chip is awesome! Anyone know how long the CIA covers the data plan?
The automatic upgrade to 5G is a nice feature of the vaccine, too.
Quote from: Jockey on March 31, 2021, 05:23:48 PM
The automatic upgrade to 5G is a nice feature of the vaccine, too.
That's overrated - you can get that from AT&T. The ability to crush rocks with my bare hand however - that's cool.
I can see the aliens everywhere through my glasses.
I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum. And I am all out of bubblegum.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 31, 2021, 05:51:24 PM
That's overrated - you can get that from AT&T. The ability to crush rocks with my bare hand however - that's cool.
I like the x-ray vision.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pfizer-says-trials-suggest-covid-vaccine-works-against-south-african-n1262710
Little bit of a mixed bag. Works against the variants, only lasts 6 months. So we'll be doing this whole dance again in the fall.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 01, 2021, 08:25:25 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pfizer-says-trials-suggest-covid-vaccine-works-against-south-african-n1262710
Little bit of a mixed bag. Works against the variants, only lasts 6 months. So we'll be doing this whole dance again in the fall.
Note the second to last sentence is not correct. They don't know how long the duration lasts, but have proved that it lasts 6 months.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 01, 2021, 08:49:29 AM
Note the second to last sentence is not correct. They don't know how long the duration lasts, but have proved that it lasts 6 months.
Right - and the following is *just a guess*. But, we're likely going to need booster shots for the next few years (ala the flu), but if the world can eliminate the virus with vaccines/herd immunity over that time, there's a small chance we can claim "we won". But more likely, we're all gonna need a booster shot every year or two.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 01, 2021, 08:53:55 AM
Right - and the following is *just a guess*. But, we're likely going to need booster shots for the next few years (ala the flu), but if the world can eliminate the virus with vaccines/herd immunity over that time, there's a small chance we can claim "we won". But more likely, we're all gonna need a booster shot every year or two.
I think you're right...and I'll elaborate with a prediction based on the two alternatives:
1 - Enough people get vaccinated over the next couple of years to achieve true herd immunity. If that happens, we can limit spread and the development of new variants. In this scenario, I predict we will all (worldwide) need a subsequent booster or two...but after that, boosters will be mostly limited to higher risk groups, like we do with the flu.
2 - We don't achieve herd immunity because of vaccine hesitancy, so the spread continues and new variants continue to emerge regularly. In this scenario, I predict we will continue to chase variants until they are so out of control that everyone needs a shot just to keep up. Regular boosters become a way of life for everyone, and not just higher risk groups.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 01, 2021, 09:16:16 AM
I think you're right...and I'll elaborate with a prediction based on the two alternatives:
1 - Enough people get vaccinated over the next couple of years to achieve true herd immunity. If that happens, we can limit spread and the development of new variants. In this scenario, I predict we will all (worldwide) need a subsequent booster or two...but after that, boosters will be mostly limited to higher risk groups, like we do with the flu.
2 - We don't achieve herd immunity because of vaccine hesitancy, so the spread continues and new variants continue to emerge regularly. In this scenario, I predict we will continue to chase variants until they are so out of control that everyone needs a shot just to keep up. Regular boosters become a way of life for everyone, and not just higher risk groups.
Whatever it takes.
BTW, I get my second Moderna dose tomorrow.
I heard on the radio that Moderna is working on a combo flu/ Covid shot.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on April 01, 2021, 11:49:29 AM
I heard on the radio that Moderna is working on a combo flu/ Covid shot.
And then Trump will be right about a Flu shot working to take care of Covid!
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 01, 2021, 08:25:25 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pfizer-says-trials-suggest-covid-vaccine-works-against-south-african-n1262710
Little bit of a mixed bag. Works against the variants, only lasts 6 months. So we'll be doing this whole dance again in the fall.
Good. I was worried the pharma companies were not going to profit hugely off this
This is incredibly good news...if the trend holds.
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1377724968893624331?s=20
Quote from: Non-Salesperson Time-Waster on April 01, 2021, 03:52:04 PM
This is incredibly good news...if the trend holds.
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1377724968893624331?s=20
Vaccinating almost 80% of American adults by July 4th would be a remarkable accomplishment. The production delays and issues with the rollout have been ironed out incredibly well, given the scale of the operation. At this point, my biggest concern is people refusing the vaccine. I hope Americans pull together and roll up their sleeves.
Dose #2 of Moderna tomorrow!
Currently ~30 hours past dose 2 of Pfizer. Only a bit of arm soreness and very minor fatigue.
Quote from: BM1090 on April 01, 2021, 06:57:42 PM
Dose #2 of Moderna tomorrow!
Congratulations! Hope your side effects are minimal (or non-existent).
Got my first vaccine today. Somehow managed to get my younger daughter in also.
Pfizer vaccine for both of us.
My wife got her second Moderna on Thursday and has been lethargic yesterday and today so far.
Older daughter home for Easter weekend and she scheduled the J&J vaccine for this Wednesday when she's back on the Xavier campus.
As of today, the US reached a new record seven-day average of 3 million COVID vaccinations per day. It is astonishing how far we have come in a few weeks. I hope this keeps up throughout the spring and summer.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/03/covid-vaccinations-hit-another-record-average-now-above-3-million-daily.html
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 03, 2021, 06:15:02 PM
As of today, the US reached a new record seven-day average of 3 million COVID vaccinations per day. It is astonishing how far we have come in a few weeks. I hope this keeps up throughout the spring and summer.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/03/covid-vaccinations-hit-another-record-average-now-above-3-million-daily.html
That's really good. It's only about 100 days ago when the first shots went into the arms of nurses in the Covid units across the country.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 03, 2021, 06:15:02 PM
As of today, the US reached a new record seven-day average of 3 million COVID vaccinations per day. It is astonishing how far we have come in a few weeks. I hope this keeps up throughout the spring and summer.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/03/covid-vaccinations-hit-another-record-average-now-above-3-million-daily.html
I am 74 and applied Feb 1, 2021 on the NJ state website to schedule my vaccine shots at my local hospital which is 10 minutes away. I was just notified that I could make an appointment but the site is 70 miles from my home. I'm still waiting which is OK because I know I'll eventually get it, but to say people my age are a priority is not true.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on April 04, 2021, 06:09:58 AM
I am 74 and applied Feb 1, 2021 on the NJ state website to schedule my vaccine shots at my local hospital which is 10 minutes away. I was just notified that I could make an appointment but the site is 70 miles from my home. I'm still waiting which is OK because I know I'll eventually get it, but to say people my age are a priority is not true.
Where in Jersey are you?
Have you looked into signing up at a pharmacy hundreds of appointments available statewide.
https://www.vaccinespotter.org/NJ/
It looks there are a couple of vaccine hunter FB groups for New Jersey. Just looking at one now, one poster mentioned that her brother signed up with the state on January 14 and still hasn't been notified of anything either, but in the meantime went elsewhere.
Based on the questions, very similar to the Chicago group in terms of the problems being raised.
I think what states are seeing is that the pharmacies, after some initial screw ups, are really doing a great job at getting shots into arms. So states are allocating a bunch of vaccine to those pharmacies. I have no idea what is going on in New Jersey, but I think a lot of places who thought they were going to have a lot of shots to distribute, aren't getting as many. But that's because others are getting a lot more and doing a good job with them.
Had Moderna #2 about 48 hours ago.
Felt sore and blah, with a lingering headache, most of yesterday, but felt better as the day went on. Enjoyed Gonzaga-UCLA last night, got a decent night of sleep and feel quite good today. Arm's still sore, but otherwise nothing terrible.
Better than I had hoped for given some of the horror stories. And much better than the day after my second shingles shot last year -- when I felt like I had been run over by a truck, which then backed up and ran me over again.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 01, 2021, 08:25:25 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pfizer-says-trials-suggest-covid-vaccine-works-against-south-african-n1262710
Little bit of a mixed bag. Works against the variants, only lasts 6 months. So we'll be doing this whole dance again in the fall.
No where in that article did it say the vaccine losses its strength after 6 months. In fact, it states the opposite.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 04, 2021, 08:07:54 AM
I think what states are seeing is that the pharmacies, after some initial screw ups, are really doing a great job at getting shots into arms. So states are allocating a bunch of vaccine to those pharmacies. I have no idea what is going on in New Jersey, but I think a lot of places who thought they were going to have a lot of shots to distribute, aren't getting as many. But that's because others are getting a lot more and doing a good job with them.
That's what seems to have happened here in MN.
I assumed that major healthcare systems like Mayo Clinic would get the bulk of the shots. And that was true for the first few weeks when they were vaccinating healthcare workers and nursing home residents. When they got beyond that, the bulk switched to pharmacies. I was on the waiting list at Mayo, but got my shot much earlier through a small local pharmacy.
I am now four days past my second shot. If I had waited for Mayo to call, I'd still be waiting for the first.
Walgreens at least here in Illinois seems to have one glitch after another though.
Supply seems to be opening up though, at least until everyone becomes eligible statewide next week. The mass vax sites up in the Chicago area are filling almost as fast as they open.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on April 04, 2021, 10:24:41 AM
Walgreens at least here in Illinois seems to have one glitch after another though.
Supply seems to be opening up though, at least until everyone becomes eligible statewide next week. The mass vax sites up in the Chicago area are filling almost as fast as they open.
That's a good thing - not a glitch.
As far as Walgreen's go, I think you are right. I got mine there (walgreens in Wisconsin) with no trouble over a month ago, but at the time they never knew how much or which vaccine they were getting - so they couldn't post openings until they received word what they were getting each Monday.
Quote from: MU82 on April 04, 2021, 08:27:17 AM
Had Moderna #2 about 48 hours ago.
Felt sore and blah, with a lingering headache, most of yesterday, but felt better as the day went on. Enjoyed Gonzaga-UCLA last night, got a decent night of sleep and feel quite good today. Arm's still sore, but otherwise nothing terrible.
Better than I had hoped for given some of the horror stories. And much better than the day after my second shingles shot last year -- when I felt like I had been run over by a truck, which then backed up and ran me over again.
Similar for me. I had a low fever and some chills for a few hours last night, about 24 hours after receiving the shot. Felt better when I woke up this morning.
I didn't say the mass vax sites were in a glitch, I was just saying that some of them are very popular.
We're still dealing with the fallout from Walgreens glitching in early March not scheduling second doses, or people getting cancelled out now because the pharmacy switched supplies ( the problem there is Walgreens doing nothing to help them). What's happening there is that Lake will take care of its residents, DuPage wont, it's patchy on the others, and Cook is picking up the slack for the stand-alone second doses , which includes people getting standby shots so not having a second scheduled. Then there are the people who got their first shot elsewhere in the state or out of state, and are looking for second shots now. I tell people that I want them to remember that when the collar County pols snipe at Cook...😁
The local health system today mentioned that they are getting more vaccines this week than they can distribute at their mass vaccination site. So they are starting to take their J&J shots on the road to some rural locations.
I think you are going to see vaccinations skyrocket in the next few weeks.
**Appointments are open for adults in almost every state without restriction.
**J&J is going to be highly sought after, especially by the young and healthy. (My adult son and his friends were searching out J&J shots yesterday. He found one at a Wal-Mart about two miles from where he lives.)
**Another surge, and news about variants, is going to drive more people to get vaccinated. We aren't at herd immunity yet folks. But we can get there soon!!!
I agree that vaccinations are going to skyrocket.
Last night for the first time there were tons of J&J appointments at Walgreens stores in the Chicago area when they dropped appointments. Many many people are asking specifically for the J&J in the Vaccine Hunters group, some of it due to allergy concerns, but not most of it. Plus that's the vaccine going to the homebound and in the mobile strike forces the state is sending out to rural areas facing a surge. Given the perceived differences in efficacy it's been surprisingly popular.
Next week Illinois opens to everyone so we'll see what happens then, ( though 80 counties have already opened) but at the moment it's much easier to get a shot than it was six weeks ago.
I think a lot of people are interested in J&J because of the "one and done" nature of the shot.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 06, 2021, 08:43:37 AM
I think a lot of people are interested in J&J because of the "one and done" nature of the shot.
That, and the more traditional nature of it's development vs the new mRNA.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 06, 2021, 08:12:57 AM
The local health system today mentioned that they are getting more vaccines this week than they can distribute at their mass vaccination site. So they are starting to take their J&J shots on the road to some rural locations.
I think you are going to see vaccinations skyrocket in the next few weeks.
**Appointments are open for adults in almost every state without restriction.
**J&J is going to be highly sought after, especially by the young and healthy. (My adult son and his friends were searching out J&J shots yesterday. He found one at a Wal-Mart about two miles from where he lives.)
**Another surge, and news about variants, is going to drive more people to get vaccinated. We aren't at herd immunity yet folks. But we can get there soon!!!
Things are definitely looking up. As long as people keep getting vaccinated, we have a legitimate chance of getting near herd immunity within the next few months.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 06, 2021, 08:58:09 AM
Things are definitely looking up. As long as people keep getting vaccinated, we have a legitimate chance of getting near herd immunity within the next few months.
It's happening. In CT 65+ is now 82% and 55+ 75% and 45+ 67% (all first shot data). Great sign that vaccine hesitancy may be eroding.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 06, 2021, 08:43:37 AM
I think a lot of people are interested in J&J because of the "one and done" nature of the shot.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 06, 2021, 08:56:23 AM
That, and the more traditional nature of it's development vs the new mRNA.
Yes, I have heard both of those reasons. And as others have mentioned, the difference in efficacy could be attributable to the different timeframe in which the J&J vaccine was tested (when there was higher community spread).
Bottom line: they all can help us get out of this, so if some prefer J&J while others prefer Pfizer or Moderna, all the better to get us vaccinated faster.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 06, 2021, 09:01:53 AM
It's happening. In CT 65+ is now 82% and 55+ 75% and 45+ 67% (all first shot data). Great sign that vaccine hesitancy may be eroding.
Cuz you have more Dems (and fewer evangelicals). The opposite of Wisconsin. :-\ :-\
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2021, 01:47:28 PM
Cuz you have more Dems (and fewer evangelicals). The opposite of Wisconsin. :-\ :-\
I don't think this is the case. Maybe there could be a religious aspect, but I dont think it has to do with politics.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2021, 01:47:28 PM
Cuz you have more Dems (and fewer evangelicals). The opposite of Wisconsin. :-\ :-\
A very quick googling showed the percentage of evangelicals in the US to be 35% and in Wisconsin to be 22%. I've never really observed an overly evangelical strain of influence here. I sort of attributed it to the Great Lakes settlement of Catholics, but I've certainly never done any actual research on the topic.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2021, 01:47:28 PM
Cuz you have more Dems (and fewer evangelicals). The opposite of Wisconsin. :-\ :-\
WI is at 35% of total population with at least 1 shot. Not sure what you are complaining about.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2021, 01:47:28 PM
Cuz you have more Dems (and fewer evangelicals). The opposite of Wisconsin. :-\ :-\
source?
i did not see any breakdown by political party or religion
if it was supposed to be funny-ouch!
It looks like Wisconsin and the upper Midwest is doing pretty well with rollout. Almost every state in the region has 35% with at least one dose (and Iowa is at 34%).
Rollout seems to be a bigger issue in the southeast, with Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Tennessee all being in the 26-27% range. Those are the places that need to get their acts together.
I was getting my haircut today. We got to talking about vaccination, he said he didn't like shots but was going tomorrow and was concerned the 2nd shot was 4 weeks out. I told him that was normal, I thought Moderna was a 4 week wait.
"Moderna? Oh no no no, I'm not getting Moderna. That shot paralyzes you. I'm cancelling."
Facepalm. I laughed but realized he was serious. "This is false, tens of millions of people have safely gotten Moderna. Call your doctor if you are concerned." He was not persuaded.
I should post this in the Doom thread.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 06, 2021, 07:59:38 PM
I was getting my haircut today. We got to talking about vaccination, he said he didn't like shots but was going tomorrow and was concerned the 2nd shot was 4 weeks out. I told him that was normal, I thought Moderna was a 4 week wait.
"Moderna? Oh no no no, I'm not getting Moderna. That shot paralyzes you. I'm cancelling."
Facepalm. I laughed but realized he was serious. "This is false, tens of millions of people have safely gotten Moderna. Call your doctor if you are concerned." He was not persuaded.
I should post this in the Doom thread.
That's pretty sad, topper.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 06, 2021, 07:59:38 PM
I was getting my haircut today. We got to talking about vaccination, he said he didn't like shots but was going tomorrow and was concerned the 2nd shot was 4 weeks out. I told him that was normal, I thought Moderna was a 4 week wait.
"Moderna? Oh no no no, I'm not getting Moderna. That shot paralyzes you. I'm cancelling."
Facepalm. I laughed but realized he was serious. "This is false, tens of millions of people have safely gotten Moderna. Call your doctor if you are concerned." He was not persuaded.
I should post this in the Doom thread.
Curious...did you ask him how he knew this or where he got that information from?
The vaccine is the end game, hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 07, 2021, 06:50:35 AM
Curious...did you ask him how he knew this or where he got that information from?
"They say" is where he got the info.
I knew my ability to persuade was small, so I dropped it. I rathered him focusing on my haircut.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 07, 2021, 07:50:47 AM
The vaccine is the end game, hey?
Yep. And truly getting back to 'normal' depends on most everyone rolling up their sleeves.
After earlier stating there was no link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots, the EU regulators now find a 'possible link.'
U.K. says AstraZeneca alternative should be offered for under 30s, and E.U. finds a 'possible link' to rare clots.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/07/world/astrazeneca-blood-clots.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210407&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=88591053&segment_id=55059&user_id=a4394b6a5672354a123af665691a6f2d
Not good news....
Just got J&J last night. I feel hungover
Quote from: ZaLiN on April 07, 2021, 11:01:55 AM
Just got J&J last night. I feel hungover
That was a J&B shot, yo.
topper
My wife works for Moderna on the vaccine study and I still got the Moderna shot. Seriously, I have learned more science in the past year than I have in my previous 56 years on the planet and hope everyone gets the vaccine today. The amount of work going on in regard the variants is simply amazing. I do not think we are out of the woods globally and am still reading the new info daily.
I have spent my whole life traveling for work and have my fingers crossed I can start my routine back up again in 2021. We have all had a trying year and I believe everyone getting the vaccine is our best shot at returning to normal. I will add that I am amazed by the "smart" people I know that want nothing to do with the vaccine.
Quote from: Goose on April 07, 2021, 05:21:05 PM
topper
My wife works for Moderna on the vaccine study and I still got the Moderna shot. Seriously, I have learned more science in the past year than I have in my previous 56 years on the planet and hope everyone gets the vaccine today. The amount of work going on in regard the variants is simply amazing. I do not think we are out of the woods globally and am still reading the new info daily.
I have spent my whole life traveling for work and have my fingers crossed I can start my routine back up again in 2021. We have all had a trying year and I believe everyone getting the vaccine is our best shot at returning to normal. I will add that I am amazed by the "smart" people I know that want nothing to do with the vaccine.
If you are still traveling to the Far East, how are they dealing with the variants?
I am a bit more hopeful today.
My daughter-in-law has been in a full panic for the last year, not leaving the house at all. My son has also been working from home 4 out of 5 days a week. I told him Saturday that everyone is eligible now. Monday morning he signed up for himself and the kids. When he told his wife, she actually went online and signed up. We were all shocked considering her earlier attitude that the vaccine was gonna kill us all.
So, there is hope that some of these science deniers will do the right thing.
Wife and I had #2 modern a week ago. I only had a sore arm for a few days. My wife had a bad attitude about the shot (as she does with all things with a needle) she had bad headache for a week and the classic covid arm with the swelling under the arm and rash.
18 year old son came home from working out monday and asked how he can get the vaccine. He is scheduled for J&J tomorrow.
Jockey
I am still on the IR for international travel. Our staff in China, Vietnam and India are put and about with no limitations in China and Vietnam. That said, no international for our team without quarantine.
We're pretty sure my cousin got the shot only because her doctors made her. The rest of her family won't take any vaccines, apparently. .
Quote from: Jockey on April 07, 2021, 05:57:09 PM
I am a bit more hopeful today.
My daughter-in-law has been in a full panic for the last year, not leaving the house at all. My son has also been working from home 4 out of 5 days a week. I told him Saturday that everyone is eligible now. Monday morning he signed up for himself and the kids. When he told his wife, she actually went online and signed up. We were all shocked considering her earlier attitude that the vaccine was gonna kill us all.
So, there is hope that some of these science deniers will do the right thing.
This makes me hopeful.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on April 07, 2021, 06:42:05 PM
We're pretty sure my cousin got the shot only because her doctors made her. The rest of her family won't take any vaccines, apparently. .
This scares the heck out of me.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 07, 2021, 06:49:04 PM
This makes me hopeful.
This scares the heck out of me.
he said "pretty sure" and then followed that up with a big anecdotal statement and that scares you? i'm sure you meant that in a concerned citizen/health care professional sort of way, but it must scare you enough to verbalize it publicly on a message board.
first off, you cannot control everyone. in my job as i'm sure you do as well, we advise. if they trust and value what we advise, they act. not everyone heeds our advice. some go for 2nd opinions; i encourage this. many people do not like scare tactics; they push back.
with that being said, if you get vaccinated(which you have) and those around you get vaccinated, or most do or soon to be most, what do you have to worry about? variants, vaccines efficacy, duration of immunity, these are all things that are out of our hands. we cannot continue to keep people holed up and afraid. those who choose not to get vaccinated will probably eventually get sick. if they aren't compromised and live, they develop their own immunity. you shouldn't have to worry as you've been vaccinated. this is not a sickness that we can prevent everyone from getting. what happens with the next "covid"? that scares the hell out of me. not the sickness, but how we all are forced to react to it
we are going to look back on this and hopefully learn. if we don't, that scares me
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 07, 2021, 07:49:25 PM
he said "pretty sure" and then followed that up with a big anecdotal statement and that scares you? i'm sure you meant that in a concerned citizen/health care professional sort of way, but it must scare you enough to verbalize it publicly on a message board.
It had nothing to do with the "pretty sure" statement about his sister, and everything to do with what he said about the rest of the family.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 07, 2021, 07:49:25 PM
with that being said, if you get vaccinated(which you have) and those around you get vaccinated, or most do or soon to be most, what do you have to worry about?
Variants that break through the immunity. If that happens, then all of us are right back where we started. If that thought doesn't scare you, you aren't paying attention. Or you're naive.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 07, 2021, 07:49:25 PM
with that being said, if you get vaccinated(which you have) and those around you get vaccinated, or most do or soon to be most, what do you have to worry about? variants, vaccines efficacy, duration of immunity, these are all things that are out of our hands. we cannot continue to keep people holed up and afraid. those who choose not to get vaccinated will probably eventually get sick. if they aren't compromised and live, they develop their own immunity. you shouldn't have to worry as you've been vaccinated.
My close friend with Lupus among other maladies who can't get the immunization, worries me.
Quote from: ZaLiN on April 07, 2021, 08:57:26 PM
My close friend with Lupus among other maladies who can't get the immunization, worries me.
I worry about people like that too.
That's interesting, I have a good friend with lupus and some other related maladies, and she was able to get vaccinated.
And oh, if you were referring to my statement about my cousin, I know that she got the shot due to strenuous advice from her doctors, just not how strenuous. I'm also not a 'he'.
Quote from: ZaLiN on April 07, 2021, 08:57:26 PM
My close friend with Lupus among other maladies who can't get the immunization, worries me.
I don't what the "other maladies" are, but I had a relative in their 80's who has Lupus and has had both shots of Pfizer and had zero side effects.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 07, 2021, 07:49:25 PM
we cannot continue to keep people holed up
Where, in America now, are people being kept "holed up"?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 07, 2021, 07:49:25 PM
he said "pretty sure" and then followed that up with a big anecdotal statement and that scares you? i'm sure you meant that in a concerned citizen/health care professional sort of way, but it must scare you enough to verbalize it publicly on a message board.
first off, you cannot control everyone. in my job as i'm sure you do as well, we advise. if they trust and value what we advise, they act. not everyone heeds our advice. some go for 2nd opinions; i encourage this. many people do not like scare tactics; they push back.
with that being said, if you get vaccinated(which you have) and those around you get vaccinated, or most do or soon to be most, what do you have to worry about? variants, vaccines efficacy, duration of immunity, these are all things that are out of our hands. we cannot continue to keep people holed up and afraid. those who choose not to get vaccinated will probably eventually get sick. if they aren't compromised and live, they develop their own immunity. you shouldn't have to worry as you've been vaccinated. this is not a sickness that we can prevent everyone from getting. what happens with the next "covid"? that scares the hell out of me. not the sickness, but how we all are forced to react to it
we are going to look back on this and hopefully learn. if we don't, that scares me
Agreed that we should look back and learn. I think the important lessons are that we should approach another pandemic like new zealand, australia, vietnam, south korea, etc. Those countries who contained the virus extraordinarily well and didn't significantly impact their economies.
Quote from: MU82 on April 08, 2021, 06:34:25 AM
Where, in America now, are people being kept "holed up"?
All over. There are many people spooked by the govt, wasting their lives away and going bonkers
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 06:58:13 AM
All over. There are many people spooked by the govt, wasting their lives away and going bonkers
They're keeping themselves holed up. They aren't being kept holed up.
Big difference.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 08, 2021, 07:02:05 AM
They're keeping themselves holed up. They aren't being kept holed up.
Big difference.
No. Everyone is free to do anything they please. People make decisions because of rules, circumstances, beliefs, etc.
When you have the government officials scaring people with nonsense, it influences many. In effect, people are being directed toward dumb and dangerous behavior.
Quote from: Goose on April 07, 2021, 06:15:58 PM
Jockey
I am still on the IR for international travel. Our staff in China, Vietnam and India are put and about with no limitations in China and Vietnam. That said, no international for our team without quarantine.
My corporation is still not allowing international travel. Personnel from the China facilities has been traveling within China only.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:22:21 AM
When you have the government officials scaring people with nonsense, it influences many. In effect, people are being directed toward dumb and dangerous behavior.
Kinda like all the righties scaring people about the vaccine?
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 08, 2021, 07:28:49 AM
Kinda like all the righties scaring people about the vaccine?
On the vaccine front, the biggest equity issue doesn't have anything to do with "righties".
Here in the Twin Cities, we're opening up a huge new location next week that is only serving those living in the highest "Social Vulnerability Index" zip codes (which happens to include the one I grew up in and the one I now live in).
The vaccine issue isn't about a small piece of the population tapping nonsense, it's actually about the "non-righties"
So, no
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:22:21 AM
No. Everyone is free to do anything they please. People make decisions because of rules, circumstances, beliefs, etc.
When you have the government officials scaring people with nonsense, it influences many. In effect, people are being directed toward dumb and dangerous behavior.
So you agree, no one is being kept holed up.
Thanks.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 08, 2021, 07:46:55 AM
So you agree, no one is being kept holed up.
Thanks.
The govt is simply heavily influencing people to be holed up. Without the govt, many of those holed up would not be. They are holed up because of govt — does that mean "being kept holed up"? Probably semantics.
But I'll agree they are not being forcefully imprisoned... if that's your definition of being kept holed up, then you would say no, they are not being kept holed up.
There is all sorts of official, government advice about how you can not be "holed up" and still be safe. Those people who are "scared" and "spooked" and being holed up to the extreme aren't really following government advice.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:59:38 AM
The govt is simply heavily influencing people to be holed up. Without the govt, many of those holed up would not be. They are holed up because of govt — does that mean "being kept holed up"? Probably semantics.
But I'll agree they are not being forcefully imprisoned... if that's your definition of being kept holed up, then you would say no, they are not being kept holed up.
Yes, that is my definition. Otherwise, why state it that way.
There is risk in living every day. Get your vaccination and start living again. That's the end game. Just do it, aina?
I've followed a lot of what's happened in other countries. Americans were never kept 'holed up'.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 08, 2021, 08:14:05 AM
There is all sorts of official, government advice about how you can not be "holed up" and still be safe. Those people who are "scared" and "spooked" and being holed up to the extreme aren't really following government advice.
💯 like most things I blame the media who have scared the living sh*t out of some people with the slanted/over the top negative coverage the last year.
If the news would just report what the guidelines, data, and gov't recommendations say without such a dooms day cloud over it all the division and mental stability for a lot of people would be in a much better spot.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 08, 2021, 10:34:31 AM
💯 like most things I blame the media who have scared the living sh*t out of some people with the slanted/over the top negative coverage the last year.
If the news would just report what the guidelines, data, and gov't recommendations say without such a dooms day cloud over it all the division and mental stability for a lot of people would be in a much better spot.
If only that got the ratings....
Including the numbers infected, hospitalized, and killed is kind of important.
Quote from: tower912 on April 08, 2021, 11:03:07 AM
Including the numbers infected, hospitalized, and killed is kind of important.
Very important which is why I said report the data. For instance include in the reporting that over 80% of those deaths/hospitalizations happened to obese folks is an example of possibly providing a little context to the numbers. Follow that up with stressing the importance of getting outside to exercise and to the gym to give your body a better chance of fighting the virus if you get it.
Maybe highlight that 98% folks who do get it will survive it. My point is the media zeroed in on only the negative which drove a certain percentage of the population into a dark spot mentally.
I blame Fauci and Birx, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 08, 2021, 11:17:37 AM
I blame Fauci and Birx, hey?
Nope I get they had to look at things through a singular lense of disease mitigation. The paranoia, panic, and fear monger is fully the fault of a broken media system desperate for clicks and viewership. Like Fluffy stated, drama and negativity drives those numbers unfortunately, especially during an election year.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 08, 2021, 11:10:47 AM
Very important which is why I said report the data. For instance include in the reporting that over 80% of those deaths/hospitalizations happened to obese folks is an example of possibly providing a little context to the numbers. Follow that up with stressing the importance of getting outside to exercise and to the gym to give your body a better chance of fighting the virus if you get it.
Maybe highlight that 98% folks who do get it will survive it. My point is the media zeroed in on only the negative which drove a certain percentage of the population into a dark spot mentally.
I agree. When we talk about people killed in traffic accidents, we need to also talk about those who don't get killed. Getting in an accident has gotten a bad name even though 99% of the people involved survive.
Quote from: warriorchick on April 07, 2021, 10:23:26 PM
I don't what the "other maladies" are, but I had a relative in their 80's who has Lupus and has had both shots of Pfizer and had zero side effects.
It's not just the lupus, it is various allergies and other Autoimmune problems as well that's exacerbated by the Lupus. She is in and out of the hospital at least once a month for something.
Quote from: Jockey on April 08, 2021, 12:15:42 PM
I agree. When we talk about people killed in traffic accidents, we need to also talk about those who don't get killed. Getting in an accident has gotten a bad name even though 99% of the people involved survive.
If we start having wall to wall news coverage on automobile deaths which leads to restrictions put on business, schools, travel, etc because it's not safe to drive and the risk is too great then yes I would then encourage the media to not focus solely on the deaths that come from car accidents but to provide a little context to it and recommendations for how to drive safely while still encouraging folks to drive in hopes of not causing unnecessary panic.
What a silly non-serious analogy. But you've proven over time to not be interested in conversing like an adult on anything Covid/politics related so the response was unfortunately also predictable.
The news entertainment programs are counting on people staying inside and watching in fear. Be scared of everything and gravitate back to the comfort of your couch, being told what to fear or be mad at each evening.
It's an effective business model and it makes it very difficult to employ common sense public health measures, as is evidenced by the last year.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 08, 2021, 12:43:14 PM
If we start having wall to wall news coverage on automobile deaths which leads to restrictions put on business, schools, travel, etc because it's not safe to drive and the risk is too great then yes I would then encourage the media to not focus solely on the deaths that come from car accidents but to provide a little context to it and recommendations for how to drive safely while still encouraging folks to drive in hopes of not causing unnecessary panic.
What a silly non-serious analogy. But you've proven over time to not be interested in conversing like an adult on anything Covid/politics related so the response was unfortunately also predictable.
I'll let you argue against yourself.
Quote from: ZaLiN on April 08, 2021, 01:17:50 PM
The news entertainment programs are counting on people staying inside and watching in fear. Be scared of everything and gravitate back to the comfort of your couch, being told what to fear or be mad at each evening.
It's an effective business model and it makes it very difficult to employ common sense public health measures, as is evidenced by the last year.
The Fox News business model!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 08, 2021, 12:43:14 PM
If we start having wall to wall news coverage on automobile deaths which leads to restrictions put on business, schools, travel, etc because it's not safe to drive and the risk is too great then yes I would then encourage the media to not focus solely on the deaths that come from car accidents but to provide a little context to it and recommendations for how to drive safely while still encouraging folks to drive in hopes of not causing unnecessary panic.
What a silly non-serious analogy. But you've proven over time to not be interested in conversing like an adult on anything Covid/politics related so the response was unfortunately also predictable.
Do you think the government should require citizens to wear seat belt?
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 08, 2021, 01:56:03 PM
Do you think the government should require citizens to wear seat belt?
I do. What does that have to do with media coverage?
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:42:13 AM
On the vaccine front, the biggest equity issue doesn't have anything to do with "righties".
Here in the Twin Cities, we're opening up a huge new location next week that is only serving those living in the highest "Social Vulnerability Index" zip codes (which happens to include the one I grew up in and the one I now live in).
The vaccine issue isn't about a small piece of the population tapping nonsense, it's actually about the "non-righties"
So, no
You are misunderstanding my argument, or choosing to answer something completely different. You said the government was scaring people nonsense; I pointed out the right is scaring people with nonsense about the vaccines.
So, yes.
I thought you'd be more concerned about inequities and maybe explain to us dummies why vaccines are not being administered to minorities at the same rate as certain other, large groups (including... as you say... "righties")
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:42:13 AM
On the vaccine front, the biggest equity issue doesn't have anything to do with "righties".
Here in the Twin Cities, we're opening up a huge new location next week that is only serving those living in the highest "Social Vulnerability Index" zip codes (which happens to include the one I grew up in and the one I now live in).
The vaccine issue isn't about a small piece of the population tapping nonsense, it's actually about the "non-righties"
So, no
So, if I am understanding your point - you are complaining about minorities getting preferred treatment. AFTER white and wealthier communities got preferred treatment for the first 4 months.
OK, then.
Quote from: Jockey on April 08, 2021, 06:51:31 PM
So, if I am understanding your point - you are complaining about minorities getting preferred treatment. AFTER white and wealthier communities got preferred treatment for the first 4 months.
OK, then.
No. I'm questioning why a lunatic is yapping about "righties" being an issue in getting people vaccinated when a real issue is minorities not getting vaccinated, which is not a result of "righties"
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:44:16 PM
No. I'm questioning why a lunatic is yapping about "righties" being an issue in getting people vaccinated when a real issue is minorities not getting vaccinated, which is not a result of "righties"
Actually it kind of is. A more accessible and affordable health care system would likely see a reduction in the economic disparities between the people receiving the vaccine and not receiving it. "Righties" really aren't for that.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 08, 2021, 07:48:34 PM
Actually it kind of is. A more accessible and affordable health care system would likely see a reduction in the economic disparities between the people receiving the vaccine and not receiving it. "Righties" really aren't for that.
So affordability is what is keeping minorities from getting free vaccinations? Okiiieeee
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 08:02:19 PM
So affordability is what is keeping minorities from getting free vaccinations? Okiiieeee
No. A healthcare system that has traditionally been difficult for the poor to access has lead to mistrust and underuse of healthcare overall. That has just manifested itself in the vaccination effort.
If we had a more robust public health system and a better method of health financing, it would have lead to more equitable vaccine distribution.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:44:16 PM
No. I'm questioning why a lunatic is yapping about "righties" being an issue in getting people vaccinated when a real issue is minorities not getting vaccinated, which is not a result of "righties"
No, because you are choosing to answer something that I did not opine on. You stated that the government was "scaring people with nonsense". I pointed out that many people are choosing not to get the vaccine, which could end up fucking everyone over, because of rightwing media with a constant drumbeat of disinformation scaring people with nonsense.
The inequitable distribution of the vaccine is an entirely different issue. Worthy of discussion, but an entirely different issue. Perhaps we could bring in Florida Man DeSantis to weigh in?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 08, 2021, 08:10:54 PM
No. A healthcare system that has traditionally been difficult for the poor to access has lead to mistrust and underuse of healthcare overall. That has just manifested itself in the vaccination effort.
Ahh, I get it. Similar to how the govt has effectively kept people holed up. Thanks
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 08, 2021, 02:21:46 PM
I do. What does that have to do with media coverage?
Why do you oppose individual freedoms?
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 08, 2021, 07:44:16 PM
No. I'm questioning why a lunatic is yapping about "righties" being an issue in getting people vaccinated when a real issue is minorities not getting vaccinated, which is not a result of "righties"
Thank you, JB.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 08, 2021, 07:48:34 PM
Actually it kind of is. A more accessible and affordable health care system would likely see a reduction in the economic disparities between the people receiving the vaccine and not receiving it. "Righties" really aren't for that.
Black people are (justifiably) hesitant to get vaccines due to past treatment by the gov't. (experimental vaccines and whatnot.) It's a huge generational hurdle to over come, especially for something so new and relatively untested.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 08, 2021, 10:03:48 PM
Black people are (justifiably) hesitant to get vaccines due to past treatment by the gov't. (experimental vaccines and whatnot.) It's a huge generational hurdle to over come, especially for something so new and relatively untested.
Definitely a big hurdle to overcome. Hopefully it will help that they see white people getting the same vaccines in droves.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 08, 2021, 10:03:48 PM
Black people are (justifiably) hesitant to get vaccines due to past treatment by the gov't. (experimental vaccines and whatnot.) It's a huge generational hurdle to over come, especially for something so new and relatively untested.
That too.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 08, 2021, 10:03:48 PM
Black people are (justifiably) hesitant to get vaccines due to past treatment by the gov't. (experimental vaccines and whatnot.) It's a huge generational hurdle to over come, especially for something so new and relatively untested.
Now add social media and pseudo science in on top of that.
Look no further than health care workers refusing the vaccine. A lot of them have absolutely zero idea of how vaccines work... yet will tell their friends and family that it was too rushed or not safe because it is "Emergency" use only. Personally, a coworker's cousin has convinced our coworker of this. When I ask my coworker what her cousin does, I'm told that she is a physical therapist in rural Wisconsin. My jaw visibly dropped... but there you have it. People listen to their friends and family who they consider to be experts... when they have near zero understanding.
The cousin has my coworker convinced that the vaccine isn't safe, and could cause infertility.
Another employee who can barely function as an adult, has told me that he won't get it because vaccines aren't natural, and he is all about the natural lifestyle. Yeah buddy, those cigs you're huffing down 10 times a day are totally natural and not loaded with chemicals. I've had other people complain about mercury in vaccines. Well yes, Thimerosal has been used in vaccines for decades and hasn't really been used in vaccines since 1999. Oh, also, it is commonly used during tattoo application... oh, and it isn't even an ingredient in any of the vaccines available.
BUT I GUESS SINCE YOU READ IT ON FACEBOOK FROM YOUR AUNT KAREN IT MUST BE TRUE. SHE IS A CNA AFTERALL, AND SHE HAD THIS HILARIOUS MINIONS MEME THAT MADE FUN OF SHEEPLE.
I could go on for hours, but it is so exhausting trying to convince stupid people to not be so goddamn stupid.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 09, 2021, 06:16:43 AM
Now add social media and pseudo science in on top of that.
Look no further than health care workers refusing the vaccine. A lot of them have absolutely zero idea of how vaccines work... yet will tell their friends and family that it was too rushed or not safe because it is "Emergency" use only. Personally, a coworker's cousin has convinced our coworker of this. When I ask my coworker what her cousin does, I'm told that she is a physical therapist in rural Wisconsin. My jaw visibly dropped... but there you have it. People listen to their friends and family who they consider to be experts... when they have near zero understanding.
The cousin has my coworker convinced that the vaccine isn't safe, and could cause infertility.
Another employee who can barely function as an adult, has told me that he won't get it because vaccines aren't natural, and he is all about the natural lifestyle. Yeah buddy, those cigs you're huffing down 10 times a day are totally natural and not loaded with chemicals. I've had other people complain about mercury in vaccines. Well yes, Thimerosal has been used in vaccines for decades and hasn't really been used in vaccines since 1999. Oh, also, it is commonly used during tattoo application... oh, and it isn't even an ingredient in any of the vaccines available.
BUT I GUESS SINCE YOU READ IT ON FACEBOOK FROM YOUR AUNT KAREN IT MUST BE TRUE. SHE IS A CNA AFTERALL, AND SHE HAD THIS HILARIOUS MINIONS MEME THAT MADE FUN OF SHEEPLE.
I could go on for hours, but it is so exhausting trying to convince stupid people to not be so goddamn stupid.
Couple people you left off your list who weren't exactly giving their full throated support of the vaccine during development and after initial approval.
I'd hate to think the people I have in mind would have been playing politics with something as serious as a vaccine for the worst pandemic of our lives but going back and reading some of their statements one could understand why people would have hesitation.
"I could go on for hours, but it is so exhausting trying to convince stupid people to not be so goddamn stupid."
Kinda like sum of us feel 'bout conversin' heer on Scoop wit y'all, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 09, 2021, 06:34:29 AM
"I could go on for hours, but it is so exhausting trying to convince stupid people to not be so goddamn stupid."
Kinda like sum of us feel 'bout conversin' heer on Scoop wit y'all, aina?
That's the problem with stupid people, they think they're smarter than they are. ;)
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 09, 2021, 06:31:20 AM
Couple people you left off your list who weren't exactly giving their full throated support of the vaccine during development and after initial approval.
Agree. Don and Melania should have gotten their vaccinations in public -- like Biden and Harris did -- instead of behind closed doors.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 09, 2021, 06:16:43 AM
Now add social media and pseudo science in on top of that.
Look no further than health care workers refusing the vaccine. A lot of them have absolutely zero idea of how vaccines work... yet will tell their friends and family that it was too rushed or not safe because it is "Emergency" use only. Personally, a coworker's cousin has convinced our coworker of this. When I ask my coworker what her cousin does, I'm told that she is a physical therapist in rural Wisconsin. My jaw visibly dropped... but there you have it. People listen to their friends and family who they consider to be experts... when they have near zero understanding.
The cousin has my coworker convinced that the vaccine isn't safe, and could cause infertility.
Another employee who can barely function as an adult, has told me that he won't get it because vaccines aren't natural, and he is all about the natural lifestyle. Yeah buddy, those cigs you're huffing down 10 times a day are totally natural and not loaded with chemicals. I've had other people complain about mercury in vaccines. Well yes, Thimerosal has been used in vaccines for decades and hasn't really been used in vaccines since 1999. Oh, also, it is commonly used during tattoo application... oh, and it isn't even an ingredient in any of the vaccines available.
BUT I GUESS SINCE YOU READ IT ON FACEBOOK FROM YOUR AUNT KAREN IT MUST BE TRUE. SHE IS A CNA AFTERALL, AND SHE HAD THIS HILARIOUS MINIONS MEME THAT MADE FUN OF SHEEPLE.
I could go on for hours, but it is so exhausting trying to convince stupid people to not be so goddamn stupid.
I don't think the average person realizes how little science is actually required to become a "health care professional". Training/education largely focuses on the practical aspects of doing the job, not the educational underpinnings of why.
Quote from: MU82 on April 09, 2021, 08:31:33 AM
Agree. Don and Melania should have gotten their vaccinations in public -- like Biden and Harris did -- instead of behind closed doors.
Dat wuzant da vaccine shot inta Jo. Herd dey pump amphetamines regularly ta help keep 'im sharp, hey?
As vaccine supplies catch up with demand, we are seeing real-life evidence of vaccine hesitancy in Mississippi:
In Mississippi, 73,000 Vaccine Slots and Few Takers
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/09/health/vaccine-mississippi-demand.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210409&instance_id=29033&nl=the-morning®i_id=88591053&segment_id=55256&te=1&user_id=a4394b6a5672354a123af665691a6f2d
Quote from: forgetful on April 09, 2021, 08:47:44 AM
I don't think the average person realizes how little science is actually required to become a "health care professional". Training/education largely focuses on the practical aspects of doing the job, not the educational underpinnings of why.
Exactly. People here CNA and think, oh that's a nurse, they must know what they're talking about regarding all things health care. As if they were privy to some secret information that the public doesn't have. When in reality, a CNA cert takes between 4 and 12 weeks.
Hell, I've had a nurse at urgent care tell me that poison ivy is contagious. Now, I don't expect them to know whether or not it is... but I expect them to consult someone or look up the answer if they aren't sure.
I think that is the problem with a lot of people these days. The absolute inability or to determine what is and what isn't a reliable source of information. Especially if that information runs contrary to their ethos.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 09, 2021, 09:00:00 AM
Dat wuzant da vaccine shot inta Jo. Herd dey pump amphetamines regularly ta help keep 'im sharp, hey?
Wenz do da Q folk show up ta Mr Gaetz howse to take out da trash? Dynastic polatishuns nawt eleet enuf deez dayz?
But Brawndo's got what plants crave.
https://theintercept.com/2021/04/08/howard-dean-biden-covid-vaccines/
Scum bag alert.
Disappointing news, especially as minority communities seem to favor the one-shot convenience of the J&J vaccine.
Johnson & Johnson vaccine deliveries are about to take a big dip in the U.S.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/04/09/world/covid-vaccine-coronavirus-cases?type=styln-live-updates&label=coronavirus%20updates&index=0&action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage#johnson-johnson-vaccine-deliveries-are-about-to-take-a-big-dip-in-the-us
Johnson & Johnson will allocate 86 percent fewer doses across the United States next week than are currently being allocated, according to data provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, dealing a setback to a national vaccination campaign that has just found its footing.
The distribution of the drug, a single-shot vaccine, has been inconsistent since Johnson & Johnson delivered its first batch at the beginning of March, sending 2.8 million doses across the country before dipping below 400,000 in the following weeks.
Last week, about 1.9 million doses were sent across the country, and this week, 4.9 million shots went out. Next week, that number will drop to 700,000.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 09, 2021, 09:00:00 AM
Dat wuzant da vaccine shot inta Jo. Herd dey pump amphetamines regularly ta help keep 'im sharp, hey?
Your deposed Mad King don't need no greenies, Doc. He drinks at least a dozen Diet Cokes a day, including the one that was on his desk when he was telling his cultists to boycott Coca-Cola, nu?
Quote from: MU82 on April 09, 2021, 12:52:15 PM
Your deposed Mad King don't need no greenies, Doc. He drinks at least a dozen Diet Cokes a day, including the one that was on his desk when he was telling his cultists to boycott Coca-Cola, nu?
Jesus, give it a rest.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 09, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Jesus, give it a rest.
Shouldn't you include Pace and 4ever in that with 82 they're just as culpable in this instance as 82 is. Just saying, maybe play it fair to people on your side and the other if you're going to be against the politics?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 09, 2021, 01:52:58 PM
Jesus, give it a rest.
Appreciate you calling me Jesus, one of our boys who made it big, but I was only responding to the political comments of others. As you also sometimes do.
Have a nice weekend, Zig.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 09, 2021, 01:54:15 PM
Shouldn't you include Pace and 4ever in that with 82 they're just as culpable in this instance as 82 is. Just saying, maybe play it fair to people on your side and the other if you're going to be against the politics?
Nads is a big boy, he knows what he's doing. (Maybe) Many others continue with their TDS, but Nads has it the worst.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 09, 2021, 04:39:34 PM
Nads is a big boy, he knows what he's doing. (Maybe) Many others continue with their TDS, but Nads has it the worst.
I mean I'm all for calling out the TDS but I'm saying maybe call it both ways if you're gonna be an umpire here. There's some clear BDS going on that was ignored.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 09, 2021, 04:42:41 PM
I mean I'm all for calling out the TDS but I'm saying maybe call it both ways if you're gonna be an umpire here. There's some clear BDS going on that was ignored.
Have ya been on this board for the past year?
Yes, those of us on the right are enjoying taking shots at Dementia Joe. Nothing like the frothy mouthed rants from April 2020 to present about Trump.
Hey, you other righties, stop ripping on Biden. He can't help it. Let's all be polite and civil, aina?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 09, 2021, 04:53:13 PM
Have ya been on this board for the past year?
Yes, those of us on the right are enjoying taking shots at Dementia Joe. Nothing like the frothy mouthed rants from April 2020 to present about Trump.
Hey, you other righties, stop ripping on Biden. He can't help it. Let's all be polite and civil, aina?
What's that adage we try to teach kids? Two wrongs don't make a right?
I'm just saying don't be a referee if you're only gonna call a foul on one team when there's multiple players involved.
Speaking of vaccines...
Hundreds of thousands of vaccine doses go unordered
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/09/vaccine-distribution-delays/
States have delayed ordering hundreds of thousands of vaccine doses available to them even as coronavirus outbreaks escalate — a sign the nation is moving past its supply pinch and now faces more acute challenges related to demand, staffing and inoculation of hard-to-reach populations.
...
At one point last week, 13 states had more than 100,000 doses apiece available and not ordered, according to a federal official familiar with the figures who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the matter's sensitivity. Indiana had only pulled down 90 percent of doses available to the state, leaving 306,000 on the shelves. Texas had ordered 95 percent of its share, leaving 673,000 doses temporarily untouched.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on April 09, 2021, 04:55:39 PM
What's that adage we try to teach kids? To wrongs don't make a right?
I'm just saying don't be a referee if you're only gonna call a foul on one team when there's multiple players involved.
Also,
too wrongs don't make a right. :)
Speaking of vaccines...huge news that could improve the chance of normalcy news school year...
Pfizer requests FDA clearance for vaccine in kids ages 12 to 15
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/pfizer-requests-fda-clearance-vaccine-kids-ages-12-15-n1263649
Pfizer on Friday requested to expand use of its Covid-19 vaccine to adolescents ages 12 to 15.
The request asks the Food and Drug Administration to amend the emergency use authorization, which the FDA originally granted late last year for people ages 16 and up.
Last week, Pfizer-BioNTech said its Phase 3 clinical trials showed its vaccine was safe and 100 percent effective in 12- to 15-year-olds, though the findings have not been peer-reviewed.
"The hope of starting to vaccinate this age group before the start of the next school year," CEO Albert Bourla said in a statement when those results were released.
Quote from: Jockey on April 09, 2021, 05:47:09 PM
Also, too wrongs don't make a right. :)
;D oops my bad!
Quote from: Jockey on April 09, 2021, 05:47:09 PM
Also, too wrongs don't make a right. :)
2 wrongs do make a lefty, doe.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 09, 2021, 06:19:11 PM
2 wrongs do make a lefty, doe.
You calling my parents wrongs, kin?
Question: After your 2nd dose, are you fully vaccinated if you neglect to post your vaccination card on Facebook?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 09, 2021, 07:12:32 PM
Question: After your 2nd dose, are you fully vaccinated if you neglect to post your vaccination card on Facebook?
No.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 09, 2021, 06:56:21 PM
You calling my parents wrongs, kin?
Parents isn't woke. Gotta call them your folks.
I wonder if vaccine reactions "run in the family."
A friend of mine told me him, his brother, and his daughter .. got Pfizer and nearly exactly 12 hours later, all were sick, in bed, chills, sick for the day. Fine the following day. His wife had no reaction.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 09, 2021, 09:05:17 PM
I wonder if vaccine reactions "run in the family."
A friend of mine told me him, his brother, and his daughter .. got Pfizer and nearly exactly 12 hours later, all were sick, in bed, chills, sick for the day. Fine the following day. His wife had no reaction.
My friend got her 2nd Moderna shot yesterday and was fine yesterday but was not doing real well today. I moved up my 2nd Pfizer shot from 4/19 to 4/11 (was going to be 30 days between doses and now will be 22) and am a little worried about how I'll feel afterwards. But I'm also excited to be closer to being fully vaccinated.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 09, 2021, 07:12:32 PM
Question: After your 2nd dose, are you fully vaccinated if you neglect to post your vaccination card on Facebook?
No, only if you also post on social media how you still won't change any behavior and will still wear 3 masks and cross the street if people approach in the opposite direction.
I find it hilarious that those that are most vocal complaining about vaccination hesitancy or whatnot, are also super vocal in opposition to anyone who wants to vacation, go ANYWHERE massless, or otherwise regain some of what they sacrificed to help fight the pandemic.
Common courtesy at this point.
Now know of two people who are positive for Covid who were vaccinated back in January. Hmmm.
Looking forward to my 2nd dose on Monday.
Well, if you know about 50 folks who are vaccinated, that's pretty good. And, what are their symptoms? Science is real, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 10, 2021, 08:07:54 AM
Well, if you know about 50 folks who are vaccinated, that's pretty good. And, what are their symptoms? Science is real, hey?
It's rare I've agreed with anything you posted on this sub-board, but this is one. The vaccine at a min knocks this thing down in severity and at best protects.
We have a lot of spread - 5% is a large amount of people and that number is going to get bigger the further you are from the shot. Just as an example most of us know someone that died in the past year. That percent is definitely lower than those getting COVID after being vaccinated.
"Nearly 40% of Marines have declined getting the COVID-19 Vaccine."
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/04/09/politics/marines-coronavirus-vaccines/index.html?__twitter_impression=true
Quote from: shoothoops on April 10, 2021, 08:26:32 AM
"Nearly 40% of Marines have declined getting the COVID-19 Vaccine."
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/04/09/politics/marines-coronavirus-vaccines/index.html?__twitter_impression=true
Marines we never known for their intelligence.
don't @me, marines, it's a joke.
Quote from: JWags85 on April 09, 2021, 10:28:20 PM
I find it hilarious that those that are most vocal complaining about vaccination hesitancy or whatnot, are also super vocal in opposition to anyone who wants to vacation, go ANYWHERE massless, or otherwise regain some of what they sacrificed to help fight the pandemic.
I just can't imagine someone virtue signaling on the internet!
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 10, 2021, 09:14:04 AM
Marines we never known for their intelligence.
don't @me, marines, it's a joke.
hopefully this isn't your intro as keynote speaker at the commencement ceremonies
so anyone who is hesitant to get vaccine is dumb?
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 10, 2021, 12:38:19 PM
hopefully this isn't your intro as keynote speaker at the commencement ceremonies
so anyone who is hesitant to get vaccine is dumb?
I would say more ignorant than dumb.
I've been pretty loose for the past year (#NoGBWTIITA) and haven't really worried about being in big, close groups.. but, went out last night for the first time since coming out of quarantine after being infected with Covid-19... bowling alley/bar...tons of people... and felt a bit relieved that I already have had Covid-19.
Twins game tomorrow, TWolves/Nets Monday. I'm ready to book a flight to Charleston!!
More bad news for the AstraZeneca vaccine, as it appeared to trigger an antibody that activated platelets, leading to serious and sometimes fatal clotting. The reaction is extremely rare (~1 in 100,000 in the UK & EU), but significant due to the potentially devastating consequences. Researchers are trying to identify a predisposing condition that might help identify people who might have this reaction.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/09/health/vaccine-blood-clots-astra-zeneca.html
If they can't figure out a way to prevent or limit these reactions, it could be a huge blow to worldwide vaccination efforts.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 10, 2021, 02:22:09 PM
More bad news for the AstraZeneca vaccine, as it appeared to trigger an antibody that activated platelets, leading to serious and sometimes fatal clotting. The reaction is extremely rare (~1 in 100,000 in the UK & EU), but significant due to the potentially devastating consequences. Researchers are trying to identify a predisposing condition that might help identify people who might have this reaction.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/09/health/vaccine-blood-clots-astra-zeneca.html
If they can't figure out a way to prevent or limit these reactions, it could be a huge blow to worldwide vaccination efforts.
Easy fix just vaccinate 99,999 people at a time with it then skip the next person
Russian and Chinese vaccines are probably going to end up vaccinating most of the worlds population - and give them a PR win in the process even if they aren't as effective.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2021, 02:33:47 PM
Russian and Chinese vaccines are probably going to end up vaccinating most of the worlds population - and give them a PR win in the process even if they aren't as effective.
Agreed. They're just going for bulk. And that's honestly probably the right move if you're peddling influence. If you had any doubt of the decline of American influence worldwide, look at that and the hoarding of vaccines domestically.
Quote from: ZaLiN on April 10, 2021, 03:52:18 PM
Agreed. They're just going for bulk. And that's honestly probably the right move if you're peddling influence. If you had any doubt of the decline of American influence worldwide, look at that and the hoarding of vaccines domestically.
Remember that the leadership of China and Russia doesn't have to deal with the negative political consequences of sending vaccine abroad.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2021, 03:54:20 PM
Remember that the leadership of China and Russia doesn't have to deal with the negative political consequences of sending vaccine abroad.
I get that for sure. And there's most certainly some abject effects being covered up. But that's gonna help them very much in terms of trust. Because it's so much harder to isolate those effects in developing nations with everything else
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2021, 02:33:47 PM
Russian and Chinese vaccines are probably going to end up vaccinating most of the worlds population - and give them a PR win in the process even if they aren't as effective.
we already have enough people afraid to get the vaccine...i trust china and russia with a vaccine like hunter in charge of the parmesan cheese
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 10, 2021, 06:27:53 PM
we already have enough people afraid to get the vaccine...i trust china and russia with a vaccine like hunter in charge of the parmesan cheese
I don't think anyone is arguing for the use of the Russian or Chinese vaccines here in the US. They are just saying that they will probably be used in the majority of the rest of the world. And I think they're right.
I heard some anecdotes (person who took it on a vent) about this but now there is a story. China vaccine not that effective.
https://apnews.com/article/beijing-immunizations-chengdu-coronavirus-pandemic-china-675bcb6b5710c7329823148ffbff6ef9 (https://apnews.com/article/beijing-immunizations-chengdu-coronavirus-pandemic-china-675bcb6b5710c7329823148ffbff6ef9)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 10, 2021, 06:36:32 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing for the use of the Russian or Chinese vaccines here in the US. They are just saying that they will probably be used in the majority of the rest of the world. And I think they're right.
exhibit A-"Remember that the leadership of China and Russia doesn't have to deal with the negative political consequences of sending vaccine abroad."
this is my reference
so everywhere else but us? i can already hear the adjectives flying...come on GOOOO. just think if this virus were to come out of a lab in US. there needs to be consequences for this global catastrophe.
hey, let's start with calling them out on their gross human rights, concentration camps among many other issues and start divesting until they start paying for all the mayhem they have caused. if we put out a movie censoring out the references to a person being gay...well, to say we would get our a$$'s handed to us is putting it kindly. the ccp is beyond evil except institutions such as NBA, apple and micorsoft and people like bill gates, hunter biden...well you get the picture...i think. now let's talk about reparations
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 11, 2021, 07:42:56 AM
exhibit A-"Remember that the leadership of China and Russia doesn't have to deal with the negative political consequences of sending vaccine abroad."
this is my reference
so everywhere else but us? i can already hear the adjectives flying...come on GOOOO. just think if this virus were to come out of a lab in US. there needs to be consequences for this global catastrophe.
hey, let's start with calling them out on their gross human rights, concentration camps among many other issues and start divesting until they start paying for all the mayhem they have caused. if we put out a movie censoring out the references to a person being gay...well, to say we would get our a$$'s handed to us is putting it kindly. the ccp is beyond evil except institutions such as NBA, apple and micorsoft and people like bill gates, hunter biden...well you get the picture...i think. now let's talk about reparations
What the f*ck are you even saying here? It's like someone dumped a bunch of incoherent talking points in your head and you vomited it out on your keyboard.
Here is what I am saying. China and Russia are using their vaccines as an opportunity to further their worldwide diplomatic goals even though the vaccination rates in their respective countries remain relatively low. They can do this because they do not fear the internal political fallout of shipping vaccines abroad.
The US and Western Europe have engaged in a me-first approach. Politically, exporting vaccines to other countries would be seen as a huge negative. And IMO that's fine. For now. But eventually we should be in a position to export those vaccines, and we should do so because it will end the pandemic, but it is the right thing to do.
I agree with this. This isn't helping.
https://twitter.com/dylanlscott/status/1381238747908485127
The "greatest country on earth" should be freely giving this vaccine out to the entire world.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 11, 2021, 09:20:18 AM
The "greatest country on earth" should be freely giving this vaccine out to the entire world.
Agree. But I don't mind, and completely understand, how we have kept it internal for the first few months. As more vaccine is produced I would hope we start to export it abroad. Oh and we have to get over ourselves and vaccinate those who are undocumented, in prison, etc.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 11, 2021, 08:12:02 AM
What the f*ck are you even saying here? It's like someone dumped a bunch of incoherent talking points in your head and you vomited it out on your keyboard.
Here is what I am saying. China and Russia are using their vaccines as an opportunity to further their worldwide diplomatic goals even though the vaccination rates in their respective countries remain relatively low. They can do this because they do not fear the internal political fallout of shipping vaccines abroad.
The US and Western Europe have engaged in a me-first approach. Politically, exporting vaccines to other countries would be seen as a huge negative. And IMO that's fine. For now. But eventually we should be in a position to export those vaccines, and we should do so because it will end the pandemic, but it is the right thing to do.
You did not say anything close to that in your initial statement. But thank you for clarifying.
Either you are so purposely simplistically minded or Kumba ya is still ringing in your ears. You continually minimize any opinion but your own of course. My points are not talking points nor are they from fox or newsmax or whatever source I use that you don't agree with
So you are just fine with ccp getting away with murder?
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 10, 2021, 02:19:02 PM
I've been pretty loose for the past year (#NoGBWTIITA) and haven't really worried about being in big, close groups.. but, went out last night for the first time since coming out of quarantine after being infected with Covid-19... bowling alley/bar...tons of people... and felt a bit relieved that I already have had Covid-19.
Twins game tomorrow, TWolves/Nets Monday. I'm ready to book a flight to Charleston!!
Keep track of your dates JB. You're not immune from Covid forever. My parents antibodies faded after about 6 months.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 11, 2021, 07:42:56 AM
exhibit A-"Remember that the leadership of China and Russia doesn't have to deal with the negative political consequences of sending vaccine abroad."
this is my reference
so everywhere else but us? i can already hear the adjectives flying...come on GOOOO. just think if this virus were to come out of a lab in US. there needs to be consequences for this global catastrophe.
hey, let's start with calling them out on their gross human rights, concentration camps among many other issues and start divesting until they start paying for all the mayhem they have caused. if we put out a movie censoring out the references to a person being gay...well, to say we would get our a$$'s handed to us is putting it kindly. the ccp is beyond evil except institutions such as NBA, apple and micorsoft and people like bill gates, hunter biden...well you get the picture...i think. now let's talk about reparations
Wow, wipe your mouth there, big fella.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2021, 02:33:47 PM
Russian and Chinese vaccines are probably going to end up vaccinating most of the worlds population - and give them a PR win in the process even if they aren't as effective.
I mean, India will probably rip past them both.
Speaking of vaccines....
Should colleges require COVID-19 vaccines for fall? More campuses are saying yes
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2021/04/11/npr-should-colleges-require-covid-19-vaccines-for-fall-more-campuses-are-saying-yes
Duke University in North Carolina has announced that it will require students to have a COVID-19 vaccine when they return this fall. And the list of campuses with such policies is growing.
Rutgers University in New Jersey was the first, and since then more than a dozen residential colleges have followed. Notre Dame; two Ivy League schools, Brown and Cornell; and Northeastern University in Massachusetts are among those requiring the vaccine for fall. Cleveland State University will do so for all all students living on campus.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 11, 2021, 09:29:41 AM
You did not say anything close to that in your initial statement. But thank you for clarifying.
Either you are so purposely simplistically minded or Kumba ya is still ringing in your ears. You continually minimize any opinion but your own of course. My points are not talking points nor are they from fox or newsmax or whatever source I use that you don't agree with
So you are just fine with ccp getting away with murder?
1. Actually if you read the thread in context, my statement made perfect sense.
2. Getting away with murder...how? Are we talking Uyghurs? Need more clarity.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 11, 2021, 09:29:41 AM
You did not say anything close to that in your initial statement. But thank you for clarifying.
Either you are so purposely simplistically minded or Kumba ya is still ringing in your ears. You continually minimize any opinion but your own of course. My points are not talking points nor are they from fox or newsmax or whatever source I use that you don't agree with
So you are just fine with ccp getting away with murder?
Is your stance that murder by any country is bad?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 11, 2021, 09:23:41 AM
Agree. But I don't mind, and completely understand, how we have kept it internal for the first few months. As more vaccine is produced I would hope we start to export it abroad. Oh and we have to get over ourselves and vaccinate those who are undocumented, in prison, etc.
Sure, of course.
But as of now, we aren't doing everything we could to make sure the globe gets vaccinated. USA could easily release the production methods to the world right now. Those with production capabilities could be ramping up tomorrow.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 11, 2021, 08:42:07 AM
I agree with this. This isn't helping.
https://twitter.com/dylanlscott/status/1381238747908485127
We've somehow gotten to this all-or-nothing approach to COVID for many. NO new cases. NO deaths or hospitalizations. 100% efficacy vaccine with ZERO side effects. It's just not logical. And not at all conducive to making true progress to next levels of fighting this thing.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 11, 2021, 10:20:06 AM
2. Getting away with murder...how? Are we talking Uyghurs? Need more clarity.
I mean, it's not hard to find prominent dissidents or opponents of the government in China vanishing.
I've heard some fairly supported speculation from people in the know in China that Lin Qi, the billionaire who was poisoned around Christmas, wasn't playing nice with kickbacks and payments to his connections and supporters higher up in the government
It's not as bad as Russia, but they don't react well to dissension
I know. I just don't know why rocket was bringing this up in the vaccine thread. Not sure what his point was and if it tied back to the topic.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 11, 2021, 09:20:18 AM
The "greatest country on earth" should be freely giving this vaccine out to the entire world.
Should we be exporting vaccines before we ourselves reach the immunity needed?
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on April 11, 2021, 03:00:16 PM
Should we be exporting vaccines before we ourselves reach the immunity needed?
No. But as per my most recent post, we can explain to others how to produce the vaccine for themselves.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 11, 2021, 03:25:07 PM
No. But as per my most recent post, we can explain to others how to produce the vaccine for themselves.
That is an issue for the individual companies that own the intellectual property rights to the vaccines, not the government. So when you say 'we' can explain it, you really mean 'they' (the companies).
And yeah - I think it would be awesome if they did. Just wanted to make it clear who has the ability to share this info.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 11, 2021, 03:45:21 PM
That is an issue for the individual companies that own the intellectual property rights to the vaccines, not the government. So when you say 'we' can explain it, you really mean 'they' (the companies).
And yeah - I think it would be awesome if they did. Just wanted to make it clear who has the ability to share this info.
Not entirely. The government has the ability to step in in this case and demand the IP. Not sure if that rule is tied to OWS or emergency status
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 11, 2021, 03:45:21 PM
That is an issue for the individual companies that own the intellectual property rights to the vaccines, not the government. So when you say 'we' can explain it, you really mean 'they' (the companies).
And yeah - I think it would be awesome if they did. Just wanted to make it clear who has the ability to share this info.
Can you speak to the same subject when considering the huge sums of money that the US gov't gave for development for the Moderna and Astra Zeneca? Does that give a voice to the US government in dispensing the virus around the world?
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 11, 2021, 05:25:44 PM
Not entirely. The government has the ability to step in in this case and demand the IP. Not sure if that rule is tied to OWS or emergency status
Are you saying they have that ability to ensure Americans get a vaccine or that ability in a blanket sense.
It's hard to imagine that standing up in court for a global company like Pfizer that didn't take funds but used the trial infrastructure.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 11, 2021, 05:25:44 PM
Not entirely. The government has the ability to step in in this case and demand the IP. Not sure if that rule is tied to OWS or emergency status
I would be interested in seeing the law that allows the US to take away a company's intellectual property rights. Not saying it isn't true, but I have never heard of anything like that.
Quote from: Jockey on April 11, 2021, 05:41:09 PM
Can you speak to the same subject when considering the huge sums of money that the US gov't gave for development for the Moderna and Astra Zeneca? Does that give a voice to the US government in dispensing the virus around the world?
I don't know why US government funding of the vaccine development would give them the right to take away the IP rights. The government funds research all the time through NIH, DOD and other agencies and offices, and medical centers and companies routinely get to retain those rights.
Maybe there is something unique about the law in this case, but I am not aware of it. Again, if anyone knows otherwise, I would love to see the reference.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 11, 2021, 06:29:26 PM
I would be interested in seeing the law that allows the US to take away a company's intellectual property rights. Not saying it isn't true, but I have never heard of anything like that.
I'll have to see if I can find the reference. I spoke pretty confidently earlier. But it was merely something I had heard/read
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 11, 2021, 07:57:38 PM
I'll have to see if I can find the reference. I spoke pretty confidently earlier. But it was merely something I had heard/read
With the defense production act the govt can force a company to produce X widgets in Y time, and if the company can't get it done the govt can force the company to partner with other companies to hit the timeline. IANAL
As of now, absolutely ANYONE 16 or older can literally walk into the Wisconsin Center and get their shot. No identification; no insurance card. And no questions about anyone's immigration status.
9a - 6p Monday through Saturday
8a - 4p Sundays
If you flatlanders can't find somewhere close to home.......
take the drive, enjoy campus and grab a bowl of Chili.
By July 4th everyone who wants the vaccine will have had ample opportunity. If you haven't availed yourself by then, it's not gonna be my problem. Expect full fledged beer and brat breath from me.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/2021/04/11/where-get-covid-19-vaccine-appointments-open-wisconsin-center/7183048002/
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 11, 2021, 06:32:26 PM
I don't know why US government funding of the vaccine development would give them the right to take away the IP rights. The government funds research all the time through NIH, DOD and other agencies and offices, and medical centers and companies routinely get to retain those rights.
Maybe there is something unique about the law in this case, but I am not aware of it. Again, if anyone knows otherwise, I would love to see the reference.
Thanks, Goo. I thought that was the case, but wasn't sure.
either they are being dumb like foxes or in a very rare moment of candidness
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/official-chinese-vaccines-effectiveness-low_n_6072e2bbc5b6ed595280630c
hoping like hell ours is better than theirs. the mRNA vaccines potential long term efficacy and/or side effects are evidently dubious, but thinking out of the tens of millions of doses given out so far seem to be more effective than not. sure there are going to be "duds" and side effects, but it's all we have so far. not sure what their vaccine's mode of immunity is based on. on the plus side, if they are being honest, it tells us, whatever mode they are using is not very effective and we can scratch that one off our list
or they are blowing smoke
Quote from: jsglow on April 11, 2021, 09:03:22 PM
By July 4th everyone who wants the vaccine will have had ample opportunity. If you haven't availed yourself by then, it's not gonna be my problem. Expect full fledged beer and brat breath from me.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/2021/04/11/where-get-covid-19-vaccine-appointments-open-wisconsin-center/7183048002/
This I *generally* agree with. Hopefully no major problems with the 16 & under crowd before then (or after).
It's a race to the finish line, stay safe before then.
Quote from: jsglow on April 11, 2021, 09:03:22 PM
By July 4th everyone who wants the vaccine will have had ample opportunity. If you haven't availed yourself by then, it's not gonna be my problem.
Mostly agree...unless continued circulation leads to a variant that is resistant to the immunity generated by current vaccines.
Then it will be everybody's problem all over again.
We just need to build it into our thinking that there will be a strain that evades the vaccine, its just a matter of time. There is too much spread globally at this point for that not to happen. This will be globally endemic...
So sign me up for my annual booster. Hopefully we restore/invest in global monitoring so that the mRNA companies can plug in the new/scary sequence/sequences and make enough before the fall hits.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 12, 2021, 09:18:12 AM
We just need to build it into our thinking that there will be a strain that evades the vaccine, its just a matter of time. There is too much spread globally at this point for that not to happen. This will be globally endemic...
Likely true...but the longer we can put it off, and the fewer vaccine-resistant variants that develop, the better chance we can get back to some semblance of normal.
If a highly vaccine-resistant variant evolves next month in Jackson, Mississippi because unvaccinated people keep gathering without masks, it would be very different for us than if it doesn't occur until six months from now in some remote region of a developing country where they're still awaiting the first vaccines.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 12, 2021, 09:18:12 AM
We just need to build it into our thinking that there will be a strain that evades the vaccine, its just a matter of time. There is too much spread globally at this point for that not to happen. This will be globally endemic...
So sign me up for my annual booster. Hopefully we restore/invest in global monitoring so that the mRNA companies can plug in the new/scary sequence/sequences and make enough before the fall hits.
That's exactly how I think it will end up working.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 12, 2021, 09:46:47 AM
Likely true...but the longer we can put it off, and the fewer vaccine-resistant variants that develop, the better chance we can get back to some semblance of normal.
If a highly vaccine-resistant variant evolves next month in Jackson, Mississippi because unvaccinated people keep gathering without masks, it would be very different for us than if it doesn't occur until six months from now in some remote region of a developing country where they're still awaiting the first vaccines.
At this point, I'm not sure it would be very different -- at least not from a "get back to some semblance of normal" standpoint.
Unless something truly different and horrific is unleashed, I don't think we're gonna see the government going back to lockdowns. Americans are fatigued. Even mask-wearing is a flashpoint.
In Michigan, where it seems to be getting quite bad again, a governor who was very aggressive in trying to combat the virus is now reluctant to issue new restrictions.
So I hope continued development of vaccines continues, that they can handle new strains, etc.
Quote from: MU82 on April 12, 2021, 11:07:30 AM
At this point, I'm not sure it would be very different -- at least not from a "get back to some semblance of normal" standpoint.
Unless something truly different and horrific is unleashed, I don't think we're gonna see the government going back to lockdowns. Americans are fatigued. Even mask-wearing is a flashpoint.
In Michigan, where it seems to be getting quite bad again, a governor who was very aggressive in trying to combat the virus is now reluctant to issue new restrictions.
So I hope continued development of vaccines continues, that they can handle new strains, etc.
You are probably right. And it's a shame that medical and research infrastructure has to fight both a virus and stubborn people who refuse to do the right things.
We'd just better be prepared to fund the he!! out of biomedical research for the next few decades, to try to stay on top of things like this, and people who make it more difficult.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 11, 2021, 07:57:38 PM
I'll have to see if I can find the reference. I spoke pretty confidently earlier. But it was merely something I had heard/read
Mea culpa.
Not a law or anything related...at least not yet.
I guess you miss the details when you're half-listening to audio news.
Anyway, here's the details on a proposed IP waiver. And more interesting info on a US government-held patent that could also change things significantly.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00863-w
Of course, big pharma already owns most of the Democratic party, so we know how this is gonna end. Can't risk pharma profits!! (Despite so much of pharma profits being made on the backs of publicly-funded research. Nationalize big pharma!)
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 12, 2021, 08:57:53 PM
Mea culpa.
Not a law or anything related...at least not yet.
I guess you miss the details when you're half-listening to audio news.
Anyway, here's the details on a proposed IP waiver. And more interesting info on a US government-held patent that could also change things significantly.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00863-w
Of course, big pharma already owns most of the Democratic party, so we know how this is gonna end. Can't risk pharma profits!! (Despite so much of pharma profits being made on the backs of publicly-funded research. Nationalize big pharma!)
I'm really not sure it makes sense to waive IP rights right now. It would likely create a new free for all that doesn't really help anyone.
Right now, production is limited by two primary factors: 1) Raw reagents for the lipids necessary to create the lipid nano-particles, and 2) Sophisticated custom designed/built injectors to ensure that the lipids and mRNA are delivered in the right proportions and mixed in the proper manner to generate the lipid nano-particles.
As more of these components are ready, they are immediately put into the existing production pipelines, where there is still excess capacity provided the machinery and reagents are available.
What would make the most sense is to have these other countries focus on expanding production of lipids, and machinery to get more production lines online in exchange for purchase/delivery agreements of doses.
Once excess capacity is filled for existing pipelines, then one can think about lifting IP requirements.
As an aside, there is always a way around these patents. They almost always do not do entire world patents, as it is not financially lucrative. There are a couple countries that are almost always left off the list, as it just doesn't make financial sense. That is almost assuredly true for the 2016 US patents discussed in that article, as Universities in particular are reluctant to invest too heavily in patent rights in many countries.
Quote from: forgetful on April 12, 2021, 10:38:05 PM
I'm really not sure it makes sense to waive IP rights right now. It would likely create a new free for all that doesn't really help anyone.
Right now, production is limited by two primary factors: 1) Raw reagents for the lipids necessary to create the lipid nano-particles, and 2) Sophisticated custom designed/built injectors to ensure that the lipids and mRNA are delivered in the right proportions and mixed in the proper manner to generate the lipid nano-particles.
As more of these components are ready, they are immediately put into the existing production pipelines, where there is still excess capacity provided the machinery and reagents are available.
Thanks. I wondered whether that might have been the case, but wasn't sure.
Well this sucks...
Johnson & Johnson Covid Vaccine: US Calls for Pause After Clotting Cases
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/u-s-calls-for-pause-on-johnson-johnson-vaccine-after-clotting-cases/ar-BB1fB8wg?ocid=msedgntp
"Federal health agencies on Tuesday called for an immediate pause in use of Johnson & Johnson's single-dose coronavirus vaccine after six recipients in the United States developed a rare disorder involving blood clots within about two weeks of vaccination."
Incidence seems to be less than 1 in 1 million.
I think this will be viewed as a highly irresponsible act by the FDA. Those odds with these side effects are so miniscule, it isn't worth pausing during a pandemic that is now largely being fueled by a more highly transmissable form of the virus.
And you have also given anti-vaxxers another reason to not get the shot.
I agree with Nate Silver here.
Nate Silver
@NateSilver538
·
10m
Replying to
@NateSilver538
Why did the FDA recommend the pause anyway? Because of a combination of institutional culture, cognitive biases, and bureaucratic imperatives incentives, they greatly overweight the importance of rare adverse effects relative to people dying from COVID.
I don't know that is highly irresponsible. Reviewing data will comfort some people. As an example someone was texting me this morning saying their son was worried about getting JNJ at his appointment today. They hadnt yet heard about the pause.
There isn't great answers but I'm fine if the FDA does it's job and reviews the facts for a few days.
Fauci's tryin' his best to kill the restaurant business singlehandedly by telling vaccinated people not to eat indoors. Gonna extend that 15 minutes of fame come hell or high water, hey?
#idiot
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 13, 2021, 07:59:15 AM
I don't know that is highly irresponsible. Reviewing data will comfort some people. As an example someone was texting me this morning saying their son was worried about getting JNJ at his appointment today. They hadnt yet heard about the pause.
There isn't great answers but I'm fine if the FDA does it's job and reviews the facts for a few days.
Even if the J&J vaccine causes blood clots in 1 / 1,000,000, they shouldn't pause giving the vaccine.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 13, 2021, 07:40:19 AM
I think this will be viewed as a highly irresponsible act by the FDA. Those odds with these side effects are so miniscule, it isn't worth pausing during a pandemic that is now largely being fueled by a more highly transmissable form of the virus.
And you have also given anti-vaxxers another reason to not get the shot.
I agree with Nate Silver here.
Nate Silver
@NateSilver538
·
10m
Replying to
@NateSilver538
Why did the FDA recommend the pause anyway? Because of a combination of institutional culture, cognitive biases, and bureaucratic imperatives incentives, they greatly overweight the importance of rare adverse effects relative to people dying from COVID.
💯!!!!!!
6 out of over 4 million and they're putting a pause on it?!?!?!?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 13, 2021, 08:58:46 AM
💯!!!!!!
6 out of over 4 million and they're putting a pause on it?!?!?!?
according to the fda we should stay in our basement during the next thunder storm so lightening does not strike us
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 13, 2021, 07:59:15 AM
I don't know that is highly irresponsible. Reviewing data will comfort some people. As an example someone was texting me this morning saying their son was worried about getting JNJ at his appointment today. They hadnt yet heard about the pause.
There isn't great answers but I'm fine if the FDA does it's job and reviews the facts for a few days.
I haven't seen enough of the real data to know if this is a good decision or not. I fear it isn't.
But the underlined might be the most significant argument in favor of halting.
I heard a long NPR discussion about why many people are still vaccine-hesitant. One of the primary reasons was a fear that FDA rushed through the process. Maybe this gives them an opportunity to say "see - we are taking even statistically tiny side effects very seriously." Hopefully they restart soon...and very loudly advertise the fact that they have taken every side effect very seriously.
There is absolutely no way that in the end this pause is a net-positive for public confidence in the J&J vaccine.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 13, 2021, 09:21:24 AM
There is absolutely no way that in the end this pause is a net-positive for public confidence in the J&J vaccine.
Exactly. There is yet another hill that the those pushing the vaccine are going to have to climb.
Most people posting in the Chicago Vaccine Hunters group are unhappy with the pause and would get it today if they could.
Dr Murphy did broach the possibility this morning that perhaps in the future it might be recommended for certain population groups and not others.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on April 13, 2021, 10:28:42 AM
Most people posting in the Chicago Vaccine Hunters group are unhappy with the pause and would get it today if they could.
Seems fair. I would definitely buy a ticket for a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance at a blood clot if it gets me in a dive bar sooner.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mattsgorman/status/1381938136071176194
This is starting to remain me of Obama's quote about Biden and not underestimating his ability to "F this up".
Easy to stand on stage and say a rehearsed line of "I won't shut down the economy but I will shut down the virus" during a debate but not quite as easy when you're sitting in the chair to back that up unfortunately.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 13, 2021, 07:59:15 AM
There isn't great answers but I'm fine if the FDA does it's job and reviews the facts for a few days.
With 1 in a million cases, they couldn't review this data behind the scenes while continuing to administer vaccines?
This is a massive fook up.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 13, 2021, 11:59:32 AM
With 1 in a million cases, they couldn't review this data behind the scenes while continuing to administer vaccines?
This is a massive fook up.
Having followed biotech and the FDA for ages, this isn't outside their norm - especially for an emergency use situation. If significant side effects (i.e. blood clots, or a significant risk of death) pop up, they'll stop and look at the data to see if they are within statistical norm of blood clots, or the vaccine is increasing risk.
They also know there are 2 vaccines available in the US that do not have this issue - so better to proceed with those until facts are known. Especially when most un-vaccinated people can reduce their own risk by limiting contact and wearing masks.
The rage is unfounded.
Quote from: jsglow on April 11, 2021, 09:03:22 PM
As of now, absolutely ANYONE 16 or older can literally walk into the Wisconsin Center and get their shot. No identification; no insurance card. And no questions about anyone's immigration status.
9a - 6p Monday through Saturday
8a - 4p Sundays
If you flatlanders can't find somewhere close to home.......
take the drive, enjoy campus and grab a bowl of Chili.
By July 4th everyone who wants the vaccine will have had ample opportunity. If you haven't availed yourself by then, it's not gonna be my problem. Expect full fledged beer and brat breath from me.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/2021/04/11/where-get-covid-19-vaccine-appointments-open-wisconsin-center/7183048002/
I just made an appointment for my first round in Illinois. Valid State DL or ID and proof insurance required, unless one doesn't have insurance, then only the DL or State ID required, but still can't get vaccinated without it.
I guess those in Illinois who aren't able to get a DL or ID, either because it's too costly to get one or the DMV is too far away, will just have to take the drive, enjoy campus and grab a bowl of chili, hey?
(PS......Glow-that's not a knock on your comment)
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 13, 2021, 12:04:48 PM
Having followed biotech and the FDA for ages, this isn't outside their norm - especially for an emergency use situation. If significant side effects (i.e. blood clots, or a significant risk of death) pop up, they'll stop and look at the data to see if they are within statistical norm of blood clots, or the vaccine is increasing risk.
They also know there are 2 vaccines available in the US that do not have this issue - so better to proceed with those until facts are known. Especially when most un-vaccinated people can reduce their own risk by limiting contact and wearing masks.
The rage is unfounded.
Agreed. It is far from ideal and I am still torn on the decision, but there was less data to begin with because this was an EUA, so FDA will always more careful in those cases. And there are two other highly effective alternatives available. And J&J shipments were going to plummet for the next week anyway due to manufacturing issues.
All told, pausing
this specific vaccine at this specific time is probably less damaging to the US vaccination efforts than people think. Certainly not a 'non-issue,' but also not the catastrophic development some are making it out to be.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 13, 2021, 01:17:55 PM
All told, pausing this specific vaccine at this specific time is probably less damaging to the US vaccination efforts than people think. Certainly not a 'non-issue,' but also not the catastrophic development some are making it out to be.
They've also recommended a pause, not mandated. Providers can still use shots today. And they're meeting tomorrow
morning afternoon to review data - will probably have updated guidance by
noon COB tomorrow.
Give the J&J to men, the other 2 to women.
Lighthouse, there are all sorts of ids that people are able to use, it doesn't have to be a DL or a state ID. Almost any type of a photo id will work.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 13, 2021, 08:58:46 AM
💯!!!!!!
6 out of over 4 million and they're putting a pause on it?!?!?!?
what are the side effects of birth control pills, statins, metformin, antidepressants, etc?
J & J must not have donated enough to BLM
and now, even with the vaccinations the cdc is saying we need to shut down again like last spring?
next up, let's see if we can get them to hop on one leg, hold their tongues and say i was born on a pirate ship
It's funny how much Faux News get some of you all riled up.
Just drive to Kenosha, get it through the county. No ID or insurance necessary.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 13, 2021, 08:03:15 PM
It's funny how much Faux News get some of you all riled up.
Yeah, after reading posts here I oftentimes check the tabloids to connect the dots between talking points.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 14, 2021, 09:54:03 AM
Yeah, after reading posts here I oftentimes check the tabloids to connect the dots between talking points.
Being concerned that this action could increase vaccine hesitancy is a Fox News talking point?
I haven't watched that network in years. My issue with the decision comes strictly from a place of getting as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible, to avoid more needless suffering and death.
Might as well call me Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 12, 2021, 08:57:53 PM
Mea culpa.
Not a law or anything related...at least not yet.
I guess you miss the details when you're half-listening to audio news.
Anyway, here's the details on a proposed IP waiver. And more interesting info on a US government-held patent that could also change things significantly.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00863-w
Of course, big pharma already owns most of the Democratic party, so we know how this is gonna end. Can't risk pharma profits!! (Despite so much of pharma profits being made on the backs of publicly-funded research. Nationalize big pharma!)
For anyone who is interested, there is a discussion of this proposal right now (noon- 1:00) on MPR news.
https://www.mprnews.org/
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 14, 2021, 11:21:19 AM
Being concerned that this action could increase vaccine hesitancy is a Fox News talking point?
I haven't watched that network in years. My issue with the decision comes strictly from a place of getting as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible, to avoid more needless suffering and death.
Might as well call me Tucker Carlson.
Hey now, you're not a white nationalist, are ya?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 13, 2021, 08:03:15 PM
It's funny how much Faux News get some of you all riled up.
Outrage and grievance is their business model.
weird how fox news really freaks most of you guys out, but none of ALL the others.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 14, 2021, 12:56:27 PM
weird how fox news really freaks most of you guys out, but none of ALL the others.
Red Herring must be on sale today!
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 14, 2021, 11:21:19 AM
Being concerned that this action could increase vaccine hesitancy is a Fox News talking point?
I haven't watched that network in years. My issue with the decision comes strictly from a place of getting as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible, to avoid more needless suffering and death.
Might as well call me Tucker Carlson.
Standing up strawmen to knock down must be exhausting.
Ok .. need some help here. A guy at work was mouthing off about how the J&J vaccine issue was just the tip of the iceberg and there were *thousands* of deaths from the shots that were being swept under the rug.
I called his bluff and told him to send me a link to that data, as it would be a massive story beyond 6 blood clots for J&J.
He sent a screenshot of the CDC's VAERS system, (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) with the data. I ran the reports myself and got the same data .. (https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html if you want to see yourself.)
It reports 1000+ deaths for Moderna and Pfizer, ~50 for Jannsen (which apparently is J&J).
Now .. this is a reporting system, so maybe those issues haven't been investigated? Maybe they got the shot, then later died from something else?
Can anyone who has stayed at a Holiday Inn Express explain what I'm seeing?
"Note: Submitting a report to VAERS does not mean that healthcare personnel or the vaccine caused or contributed to the adverse event (possible side effect)."
(https://snipboard.io/sCp96P.jpg)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 14, 2021, 07:29:06 PM
Ok .. need some help here. A guy at work was mouthing off about how the J&J vaccine issue was just the tip of the iceberg and there were *thousands* of deaths from the shots that were being swept under the rug.
I called his bluff and told him to send me a link to that data, as it would be a massive story beyond 6 blood clots for J&J.
He sent a screenshot of the CDC's VAERS system, (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) with the data. I ran the reports myself and got the same data .. (https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html if you want to see yourself.)
It reports 1000+ deaths for Moderna and Pfizer, ~50 for Jannsen (which apparently is J&J).
It sez, matta know matta. Get da mf'in' shot, hey?
Now .. this is a reporting system, so maybe those issues haven't been investigated? Maybe they got the shot, then later died from something else?
Can anyone who has stayed at a Holiday Inn Express explain what I'm seeing?
"Note: Submitting a report to VAERS does not mean that healthcare personnel or the vaccine caused or contributed to the adverse event (possible side effect)."
(https://snipboard.io/sCp96P.jpg)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 14, 2021, 07:29:06 PM
Now .. this is a reporting system, so maybe those issues haven't been investigated? Maybe they got the shot, then later died from something else?
Can anyone who has stayed at a Holiday Inn Express explain what I'm seeing?
I think that's it - and this is my HIE answer. Millions of 65+ people have been given Pfizer/Moderna since Jan. ~2000 of those "older" people have died. At least that'd be my guess.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 14, 2021, 07:29:06 PM
Ok .. need some help here. A guy at work was mouthing off about how the J&J vaccine issue was just the tip of the iceberg and there were *thousands* of deaths from the shots that were being swept under the rug.
I called his bluff and told him to send me a link to that data, as it would be a massive story beyond 6 blood clots for J&J.
He sent a screenshot of the CDC's VAERS system, (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) with the data. I ran the reports myself and got the same data .. (https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html if you want to see yourself.)
It reports 1000+ deaths for Moderna and Pfizer, ~50 for Jannsen (which apparently is J&J).
Now .. this is a reporting system, so maybe those issues haven't been investigated? Maybe they got the shot, then later died from something else?
Can anyone who has stayed at a Holiday Inn Express explain what I'm seeing?
"Note: Submitting a report to VAERS does not mean that healthcare personnel or the vaccine caused or contributed to the adverse event (possible side effect)."
(https://snipboard.io/sCp96P.jpg)
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deaths-idUSL1N2LV0NY (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deaths-idUSL1N2LV0NY)
Aaaannnnddd another batch!t stupid, dangerous conspiracy theory goes down in flames. But that won't stop it from being repeated and believed by the weak minded.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 14, 2021, 07:36:46 PM
I think that's it - and this is my HIE answer. Millions of 65+ people have been given Pfizer/Moderna since Jan. ~2000 of those "older" people have died. At least that'd be my guess.
Yep. If you keep the reporting system going long enough, we are all eventually going to die...but that doesn't mean the vaccine contributed to our demise.
Quote from: tower912 on April 14, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
Aaaannnnddd another batch!t stupid, dangerous conspiracy theory goes down in flames. But that won't stop it from being repeated and believed by the weak minded.
I'd also like to point out that even if the vaccine were "killing people" they're willing to accept that it's killed 2,000 people in ~4 months. As opposed to the ~230,000 that have died from Covid in the same timeframe. Genius.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 14, 2021, 07:46:30 PM
I'd also like to point out that even if the vaccine were "killing people" they're willing to accept that it's killed 2,000 people in ~4 months. As opposed to the ~230,000 that have died from Covid in the same timeframe. Genius.
Maybe that's what they mean by tip of the iceberg.
Whew, thanks fellas.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 14, 2021, 08:07:12 PM
Whew, thanks fellas.
I think you dropped this:
(https://thewestsider.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/can-of-worms-640x480.jpg)
Quote from: BigWilly77 on April 14, 2021, 07:37:28 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deaths-idUSL1N2LV0NY (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deaths-idUSL1N2LV0NY)
My man!
We have been giving shots to elderly people and those with preexisting conditions as a priority. Those people are even MORE likely to die because they are old and sick than the general population.
CDC reports 5,800 breakthrough cases. Out of 66 million. These things are a miracle.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-identifies-small-group-of-covid-19-infections-among-fully-vaccinated-patients-11618490232?mod=hp_lead_pos7
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 15, 2021, 09:02:45 AM
CDC reports 5,800 breakthrough cases. Out of 66 million. These things are a miracle.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-identifies-small-group-of-covid-19-infections-among-fully-vaccinated-patients-11618490232?mod=hp_lead_pos7
Absolutely incredible. We've literally found a cure for this terrible disease in less than a year and yet folks continue to complain.
Quote from: jsglow on April 15, 2021, 12:01:11 PM
Absolutely incredible. We've literally found a cure for this terrible disease in less than a year and yet folks continue to complain.
Yep. Truly heroic efforts by the medical and scientific communities.
I truly hope we can get 85+ percent of the US population to take them as promptly as possible, and help with distribution to the rest of the world.
This counts as an update right?
Budweiser is offering a free round of beer for anyone over the age of 21 who can show they have been vaccinated.
https://www.mycooler.com/en/free-bud/register.html
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 15, 2021, 03:26:59 PM
This counts as an update right?
Budweiser is offering a free round of beer for anyone over the age of 21 who can show they have been vaccinated.
https://www.mycooler.com/en/free-bud/register.html
I thought we were trying to encourage people to get vaccinated.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 15, 2021, 03:26:59 PM
This counts as an update right?
Budweiser is offering a free round of beer for anyone over the age of 21 who can show they have been vaccinated.
https://www.mycooler.com/en/free-bud/register.html
Hello, Walgreens? I'd like to cancel my appointment.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 15, 2021, 03:26:59 PM
This counts as an update right?
Budweiser is offering a free round of beer for anyone over the age of 21 who can show they have been vaccinated.
https://www.mycooler.com/en/free-bud/register.html
Someone wake me up when Pappy Van Winkle follows this trend.
From NYT columnist David Leonhardt:
In the early weeks of Covid-19 vaccinations, the shining examples of success were all places with politically conservative leaders. Globally, the countries with the largest share of vaccinated people were Britain, Israel and the United Arab Emirates. In the U.S., the states that got off to the fastest starts were Alaska and West Virginia.
This pattern made me wonder whether many progressive-led governments were spending so much effort designing fair-seeming processes that they were failing at the most basic goal of a mass vaccination program: getting shots into arms. That error has held down vaccination rates across much of continental Europe. And it appeared to be an early problem in California and New York.
But it has not turned out to be much of an issue in the U.S. Instead, the states with the highest vaccination rates are now mostly Democratic-leaning, and the states with the lowest rates are deeply conservative.
"The parts of the U.S. that are excelling and those that are struggling with vaccinations are starting to look like the nation's political map: deeply divided between red and blue states," Russ Bynum of The Associated Press wrote this week.
Why? There seem to be two main reasons.
1. Democrats believe more strongly than Republicans in the power of government. Compare, for example, the chaos of the Trump administration's virus response to the Biden administration's. Democrats' belief in the power of government certainly doesn't ensure they will manage it competently, but it may improve the odds.
In the most successful state programs, one theme is what you might call centralized simplicity. In Connecticut, Gov. Ned Lamont gave priority to older residents, including people in their 50s, rather than creating an intricate list of medical conditions and job categories that qualified people for shots (and that more privileged families often figure out how to game).
In New Mexico — which has the country's highest rate of fully vaccinated people, despite also having a high poverty rate — Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham has overseen the creation of a centralized sign-up system. The state has one vaccine portal that all residents can use to sign up for shots, rather than the piecemeal, confusing systems in many other states, my colleague Simon Romero reports from Albuquerque.
South Dakota, the red state with the highest share of vaccinated residents, has also taken a centralized approach, NPR's Ailsa Chang points out.
2. Vaccine hesitancy has declined substantially, polls show. But it is still notably high among registered Republicans.
Hesitancy is also somewhat higher among Black Americans than white or Hispanic Americans — and the south has a large Black population. "Most of the states where vaccination rates are lowest happen to be ones where the Black population is high and where the percentage who graduated from college was low," CNN's Harry Enten writes, "while the reverse is true in the states with high vaccination rates."
Dr. Vernon Rayford, an internal medicine doctor in Tupelo, Miss., told The Times that he had noticed a difference in the sources of skepticism. White skeptics often express a general distrust of government. Black skeptics are particularly mistrustful of the medical system, which has a long history of giving them substandard care — and even outright harmful treatments.
Across much of Mississippi — the state with the smallest share of residents to have received a shot — vaccine appointments are going unfilled largely because of a lack of demand. Two big reasons for the skepticism, Dr. Brian Castrucci, a public health expert, told The Times's Andrew Jacobs, are misinformation on social media and mixed messages from Republican governors about the urgency of vaccination.
"It's time to do the heavy lifting needed to overcome the hesitancy we're encountering," said Dr. Obie McNair, an internal medicine physician in Jackson.
I'm surprised there were not more centralized sign-up systems.
Connecticut had a centralized list, but then you had click a separate link whether it was MyChart, Walgreens, Walmart or the Federal VAMS system. It was somewhat confusing. I just took the first appointment in MyChart since I had an account.
I remember reading somewhere that the private providers wanted to use their own systems.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 16, 2021, 09:07:21 AM
I surprised there were not more centralized sign-up systems.
Connecticut had a centralized list, but then you had click a separate link whether it was MyChart, Walgreens, Walmart or the Federal VAMS system. It was somewhat confusing. I just took the first appointment in MyChart since I had an account.
Minnesota also has a centralized sign-up system, but I question its usefulness because everyone I know (myself included) got their appointments directly through the provider or pharmacy.
Maybe it catches people who are still waiting once supply exceeds demand, but I have yet to hear of a single person who got their appointment through the state's system.
Mrs pbiflyer with 2nd jab of Pfizer Friday. Sore arm but no other side effects.
Young pbiflyer first Pfizer jab, same results.
Good to hear.
While side effects are real for some people, I think when we hear the stories, we get the impression that they are more widespread than they really are.
Quote from: Jockey on April 18, 2021, 12:43:02 PM
Good to hear.
While side effects are real for some people, I think when we hear the stories, we get the impression that they are more widespread than they really are.
Agree. I am 2+ weeks out after my second dose of Pfizer, and all I had from either one was a little bit of arm soreness.
And while many people do get very real side effects, they pale in comparison to what could happen if they caught the virus.
From the Charlotte Observer:
Evangelist Franklin Graham is still catching grief from some of his Facebook followers weeks after saying Jesus would have supported getting a COVID-19 vaccine.
"You my friend Franklin Graham are leading your sheep to slaughter," a woman posted Friday.
"Satanic sell out," another woman posted.
"STOP," said another last week. "It is NOT your job as a pastor to try and talk people into taking a vaccine that is considered experimental."
"I WILL NOT GET THE VACCINE!!!" yet another woman posted. "God knew when I was conceived when and how I was to die."
The woman said she's twice had cancer "and I am still here. I am 77 years old. My God is good."
Wow.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/17/us/vaccine-hesitancy-politics.html?referringSource=articleShare
Quote from: MU82 on April 18, 2021, 02:18:29 PM
"I WILL NOT GET THE VACCINE!!!" yet another woman posted. "God knew when I was conceived when and how I was to die."
Sounds like a great way to avoid taking responsibility for your actions.
"It was all God's plan."
God knows when I am going to die, why should I take these antibiotics? If god wants my raging staph infection to go away he has the power! Who am I to intervene in his plan?
Quote from: Jockey on April 18, 2021, 12:43:02 PM
Good to hear.
While side effects are real for some people, I think when we hear the stories, we get the impression that they are more widespread than they really are.
I got my 2nd Pfizer last Sunday and felt the worst I've felt in many years on Monday. But I woke up Tuesday morning feeling so much better and like a new person. I wasn't even sick for 24 hours - that was no big deal. Yet a friend told me the reactions after the 2nd dose are keeping some people she knows from getting vaccinated. I know many people who have had no reaction at all to the vaccine. One more week until I'm fully vaccinated - woo hoo! And a little over a month until I go visit my parents who I haven't seen in almost 1.5 years...
Quote from: Marquette Fan on April 18, 2021, 07:48:37 PM
I got my 2nd Pfizer last Sunday and felt the worst I've felt in many years on Monday. But I woke up Tuesday morning feeling so much better and like a new person. I wasn't even sick for 24 hours - that was no big deal. Yet a friend told me the reactions after the 2nd dose are keeping some people she knows from getting vaccinated. I know many people who have had no reaction at all to the vaccine. One more week until I'm fully vaccinated - woo hoo! And a little over a month until I go visit my parents who I haven't seen in almost 1.5 years...
It's a really liberating feeling, my brother.
Quote from: MU82 on April 18, 2021, 02:18:29 PM
From the Charlotte Observer:
Evangelist Franklin Graham is still catching grief from some of his Facebook followers weeks after saying Jesus would have supported getting a COVID-19 vaccine.
"You my friend Franklin Graham are leading your sheep to slaughter," a woman posted Friday.
"Satanic sell out," another woman posted.
"STOP," said another last week. "It is NOT your job as a pastor to try and talk people into taking a vaccine that is considered experimental."
"I WILL NOT GET THE VACCINE!!!" yet another woman posted. "God knew when I was conceived when and how I was to die."
The woman said she's twice had cancer "and I am still here. I am 77 years old. My God is good."
Wow.
Franklin Graham Sowing: Haha yes, this rules.
Franklin Graham Reaping: OMG, this sucks, wtf?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/17/us/vaccine-hesitancy-politics.html
Quote from: SERocks on April 19, 2021, 09:58:04 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/17/us/vaccine-hesitancy-politics.html
Just death-cult things
Did anybody else think the timing of last night's TV special to encourage everyone to get vaccinated was a little premature? We can debate until the cows come home whether PR like that is effective in the first place, but if it is - why last night when demand is still outstripping supply? Shouldn't that be airing when anyone who wants a vaccine can stroll into their neighborhood drug store and get one?
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 19, 2021, 05:38:34 PM
Did anybody else think the timing of last night's TV special to encourage everyone to get vaccinated was a little premature? We can debate until the cows come home whether PR like that is effective in the first place, but if it is - why last night when demand is still outstripping supply? Shouldn't that be airing when anyone who wants a vaccine can stroll into their neighborhood drug store and get one?
Demand is not outstripping supply everywhere.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 19, 2021, 06:22:15 PM
Demand is not outstripping supply everywhere.
Correct. Just one example:
https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/health-science/2021/04/19/396131/nrg-mass-vaccination-site-no-longer-requiring-appointments/
But as the number of vaccines allocated has increased, the number of people looking to get vaccinated has not kept pace, Hidalgo said.
"Demand hasn't just caught up with supply," she said "There is more supply than there is demand."
...
The NRG site was at one point able to consistently vaccinate 6,000-7,000 people a day. Last week, that number dropped by about half, Hidalgo said.
"Over the weekend, and even today, we're seeing very low numbers that show us we're leaving vaccines on the table," Hidalgo said. "We're leaving this resource unused."
Very true in many places. You can pretty much drive up to the FEMA site in Gary, Indiana, they don't care where you're from. And the Quincy mass vaccination site in Illinois is not scheduling first doses after this Saturday. They were doing a lot of J&J but will only be doing second doses now. And there are plenty of last minute appointments in the greater Chicago area.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on April 19, 2021, 08:55:47 PM
Very true in many places. You can pretty much drive up to the FEMA site in Gary, Indiana, they don't care where you're from. And the Quincy mass vaccination site in Illinois is not scheduling first doses after this Saturday. They were doing a lot of J&J but will only be doing second doses now. And there are plenty of last minute appointments in the greater Chicago area.
My daughter lives in Fargo and got her second Moderna shot earlier in the week. She said attendance was very sparse, with nurses sitting around waiting for people to show up. She chatted with one while she was waiting her requisite 15 minutes, and the nurse said they had plenty of vaccine and underutilized staff.
Second shot in this afternoon. My appointment was supposed to be at 4:15, but I showed up at 2, and no line whatsoever. First dose line was 6 deep.
Anxious to see how I feel when I wake up tomorrow.
Not directly related to the COVID vaccine. This just happened this morning.
Connecticut State House votes to eliminate religious exemptions for mandatory school immunizations
CT Governor already said he would sign and it's expected to pass the State Senate.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 20, 2021, 08:18:17 AM
Not directly related to the COVID vaccine. This just happened this morning.
Connecticut State House votes to eliminate religious exemptions for mandatory school immunizations
CT Governor already said he would sign and it's expected to pass the State Senate.
Good.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 19, 2021, 06:22:15 PM
Demand is not outstripping supply everywhere.
Got it. Probably better timed than I thought while hiding here in my bubble.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 20, 2021, 08:18:17 AM
Not directly related to the COVID vaccine. This just happened this morning.
Connecticut State House votes to eliminate religious exemptions for mandatory school immunizations
CT Governor already said he would sign and it's expected to pass the State Senate.
Excellent, all states should follow. It's a bogus exemption to begin with.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 20, 2021, 08:18:17 AM
Not directly related to the COVID vaccine. This just happened this morning.
Connecticut State House votes to eliminate religious exemptions for mandatory school immunizations
CT Governor already said he would sign and it's expected to pass the State Senate.
Outstanding. Thanks for posting.
Quote from: DegenerateDish on April 19, 2021, 10:30:21 PM
Second shot in this afternoon. My appointment was supposed to be at 4:15, but I showed up at 2, and no line whatsoever. First dose line was 6 deep.
Anxious to see how I feel when I wake up tomorrow.
Hope you're doing well, Dish.
In Charlotte, anybody 16-up can walk into a vaccine site and get a shot.
https://nypost.com/2021/04/20/herpes-infection-possibly-linked-to-covid-19-vaccine/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Anyone out here who got the Pfizer shot now have herpes?? I dodged that bullet, I think!?!?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 20, 2021, 11:19:13 AM
https://nypost.com/2021/04/20/herpes-infection-possibly-linked-to-covid-19-vaccine/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Anyone out here who got the Pfizer shot now have herpes?? I dodged that bullet, I think!?!?
Not digging at you, but: Herpes Zoster is shingles, not herpes.
Go ahead and dig.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 20, 2021, 11:25:42 AM
Not digging at you, but: Herpes Zoster is shingles, not herpes.
I didn't say it wasn't. I have no interest in getting shingles either
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 20, 2021, 11:25:42 AM
Not digging at you, but: Herpes Zoster is shingles, not herpes.
My FIL is dealing with a terrible outbreak of shingles that started within days of getting his second Moderna shot.
Would it make sense that if this is a possible side affect of Pfizer that Moderna would also carry that risk?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 20, 2021, 11:45:49 AM
My FIL is dealing with a terrible outbreak of shingles that started within days of getting his second Moderna shot.
Would it make sense that if this is a possible side affect of Pfizer that Moderna would also carry that risk?
The study you linked was referencing folks that had autoimmune inflammatory rheumatic diseases (AIIRD) + the vaccine having 1.2% incidence of a shingles outbreak. Is your FIL immunocompromised?
You don't 'catch' herpes zoster. It's a reemergence of varicella zoster (chicken pox). Doctors aren't 100% on what causes herpes zoster to reemerge, but there's a strong belief it's from a weakened immune system. I had shingles at ~30 years old during a particularly stressful personal time and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Thankfully there's a shingles vaccine, though too late for your FIL's outbreak.
I wish him well. It's hard to describe the pain of exposed nerve endings.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 20, 2021, 11:45:49 AM
My FIL is dealing with a terrible outbreak of shingles that started within days of getting his second Moderna shot.
Would it make sense that if this is a possible side affect of Pfizer that Moderna would also carry that risk?
Here's the actual study - they still don't know if there's a link, or it's just activated by elevated stress. But it's of primary concern when AIIRD are also involved.
https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/advance-article/doi/10.1093/rheumatology/keab345/6225015
QuoteConclusion
Epidemiologic studies on the safety of the mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines in patients with autoimmune inflammatory rheumatic diseases (AIIRD) are needed to clarify the association between the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccination and reactivation of zoster.
edit: skat beat me to the punch. But link and quote still useful :)
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 20, 2021, 12:07:45 PM
The study you linked was referencing folks that had autoimmune inflammatory rheumatic diseases (AIIRD) + the vaccine having 1.2% incidence of a shingles outbreak. Is your FIL immunocompromised?
You don't 'catch' herpes zoster. It's a reemergence of varicella zoster (chicken pox). Doctors aren't 100% on what causes herpes zoster to reemerge, but there's a strong belief it's from a weakened immune system. I had shingles at ~30 years old during a particularly stressful personal time and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Thankfully there's a shingles vaccine, though too late for your FIL's outbreak.
I wish him well. It's hard to describe the pain of exposed nerve endings.
Ya the way he's explained the symptoms it sounds just brutal, primarily in his eyes/face area. He's 78 but don't believe he's immunocomprimised at least with anything obvious. Still very active healthy guy given his age who repeatedly turned down the shingles vaccine cause he didn't want to spend the $80.
While I'm all for the vaccines, I also understand the hesitancy while some of this stuff gets figured out.
I had shingles in 1979 at age 18 and a very stressful point in my life. It was brutal, alcohol was the thing that brought any relief, fortunately my boss @ Suburpia let me drink as long as I didn't work the counter.
Undecided if I will get that vaccine, it's my understanding that if I get it again it will pale compared to how it affected me then.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 20, 2021, 12:07:45 PM
The study you linked was referencing folks that had autoimmune inflammatory rheumatic diseases (AIIRD) + the vaccine having 1.2% incidence of a shingles outbreak. Is your FIL immunocompromised?
You don't 'catch' herpes zoster. It's a reemergence of varicella zoster (chicken pox). Doctors aren't 100% on what causes herpes zoster to reemerge, but there's a strong belief it's from a weakened immune system. I had shingles at ~30 years old during a particularly stressful personal time and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Thankfully there's a shingles vaccine, though too late for your FIL's outbreak.
I wish him well. It's hard to describe the pain of exposed nerve endings.
Early in the pandemic there were a ton of these cases popping up as people dealt with the stress in front of them. Medical Twitter has been trying to promote getting the vaccine even if you are not yet to the recommended age quite yet. These are all anecdotes, but it would seem this has been more prevalent. Since there is probably data now, it would be a really interesting study.
Also, Pace hasn't said his age, but I were a betting man, I would guess his FIL is clearly within the age that the Shingles vaccine is recommended--potentially avoiding this.
I got a mild case of hives after my first Shingrix shot last year, never reacted to any other vaccine. I had the original shingles shot a few years ago so hopefully have some protection.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on April 20, 2021, 01:15:08 PM
Ya the way he's explained the symptoms it sounds just brutal, primarily in his eyes/face area. He's 78 but don't believe he's immunocomprimised at least with anything obvious. Still very active healthy guy given his age who repeatedly turned down the shingles vaccine cause he didn't want to spend the $80.
While I'm all for the vaccines, I also understand the hesitancy while some of this stuff gets figured out.
American healthcare. So great.
As earlier reported, I had my 2nd shingles shot the first week of March. Was up all night with a fever and the shivers. Was OK the next day.
Hard to predict if they will ever establish a direct link between shingles and either of the vaccines, but I think it's fairly likely that stress is causing a compromised immune system.
Gonna go meditate now 🧘
My dad had shingles and it was a miserable month for him. He was one of the happiest and kindest in the world, a guy who was almost always "on," even when he was dealing with cancer late in his life. But shingles beat the shyte out of him.
In addition to the possible hereditary aspect of it, I had chickenpox as an adult (caught if from my son when I was 31), so I was told I had I had a pretty high risk of getting shingles.
So I got the Shingrix series last year. Second one beat me up for about 24 hours but I recovered quickly after that. I'd gladly trade that unpleasant day for not getting shingles.
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on April 20, 2021, 02:37:11 PM
I had shingles in 1979 at age 18 and a very stressful point in my life. It was brutal, alcohol was the thing that brought any relief, fortunately my boss @ Suburpia let me drink as long as I didn't work the counter.
Undecided if I will get that vaccine, it's my understanding that if I get it again it will pale compared to how it affected me then.
That sucks and is a hilarious story at the same time.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 20, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
That sucks and is a hilarious story at the same time.
Yep. Hopefully the passage of a few decades has allowed Billy to laugh about this too.
Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic have partnered in an initiative to (hopefully) address COVID vaccine hesitancy.
https://ourshot2savelives.org
It does a good job dispelling myths about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines, mRNA and what it does (and doesn't do), etc.
Many other large, respected medical centers have also signed on to promote the initiative, including Mass General, Emory Healthcare, Northwestern Medicine, University of Chicago Medicine, Yale New Haven Health and others. The initiative is also getting support from many local/regional systems, like ThedaCare and Essentia Health.
I'm not expecting a dramatic shift, but hopefully this can move the needle a bit.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 21, 2021, 01:34:52 PM
Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic have partnered in an initiative to (hopefully) address COVID vaccine hesitancy.
https://ourshot2savelives.org
It does a good job dispelling myths about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines, mRNA and what it does (and doesn't do), etc.
Many other large, respected medical centers have also signed on to promote the initiative, including Mass General, Emory Healthcare, Northwestern Medicine, University of Chicago Medicine, Yale New Haven Health and others. The initiative is also getting support from many local/regional systems, like ThedaCare and Essentia Health.
I'm not expecting a dramatic shift, but hopefully this can move the needle a bit.
They should get Donald Trump to cut television commercials in red states urging people to get shots. Take all the credit. Call it the China virus. Whatever.
This website's not going to do it. Rational arguments don't really help change the minds of anti-intellectual morons.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 21, 2021, 03:27:08 PM
They should get Donald Trump to cut television commercials in red states urging people to get shots. Take all the credit. Call it the China virus. Whatever.
This website's not going to do it. Rational arguments don't really help change the minds of anti-intellectual morons.
I totally agree that this isn't going to eliminate the crazies who view this as political, and I said in my post that I'm not expecting a dramatic shift.
But there are still some people raising scientific questions, and these institutions are doing what they can. If this effort even gets the overall numbers up 1 or 2%, it will have been more than worth it.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 21, 2021, 04:01:33 PM
But there are still some people raising scientific questions, and these institutions are doing what they can. If this effort even gets the overall numbers up 1 or 2%, it will have been more than worth it.
I certainly know some that are hesitant due to the EUA status. Full approval might sway them (since apparently 134M individuals being OK with a shot hasn't). There's still a bunch of "the virus isn't that dangerous healthy individuals younger than 70", and I'm not sure how you ever get through to those people.
Then again, once it gets full approval, the military and government organizations can mandate it (as they do other vaccines). That will bump numbers up a bit.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 21, 2021, 04:10:59 PM
I certainly know some that are hesitant due to the EUA status. Full approval might sway them (since apparently 134M individuals being OK with a shot hasn't). There's still a bunch of "the virus isn't that dangerous healthy individuals younger than 70", and I'm not sure how you ever get through to those people.
Then again, once it gets full approval, the military and government organizations can mandate it (as they do other vaccines). That will bump numbers up a bit.
Absolutely agree there are other things that would have a bigger impact than this. Full FDA approval would be HUGE, and adoption of vaccine passports or a PSA by Covfefe would be big as well.
Just pointing out that these institutions are doing what they can. Every little bit.
Operation warp speed success! Yah capitalism!
Trump administration awarded a firm $1.3 billion to make Covid vaccine syringes. Where are the syringes?
A year after a Connecticut company was awarded almost $1.3 billion in federal loans and contracts to supply an essential syringe for the Covid-19 vaccine rollout, no syringes have been made. The syringe hasn't received even the first of a series of approvals it needs from the federal government before it can be manufactured, and a factory promising 650 jobs remains unbuilt.
ApiJect Systems Corp. positioned itself as the company that would make the difference between a stumbling rollout and delivery of lifesaving vaccines. But as the U.S. vaccine rollout hits full stride, with about half of adults in the U.S. having already received at least one injection, the need for ApiJect's device has waned, leaving the contracts and loans in question.
ApiJect's plant is supposed to be built in an industrial park in North Carolina, but Morgan Weston, a spokesperson for the foundation that runs the park, said that the plant hasn't been built and that "they have not moved their operation in on any level."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1263872
ApiJect Systems Corp. meet Foxconn.
The only ingredient necessary is a republican stooge ready to screw taxpayers. (Hint: that is a very long line.)
We kinda knew that some of this was going to happen with warp speed. And probably would have happened regardless of who was president at the time.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 21, 2021, 08:03:54 PM
We kinda knew that some of this was going to happen with warp speed. And probably would have happened regardless of who was president at the time.
No no. Only Republican politicians engage in shenanigans to benefit themselves and their interests, hard stop
Do solyndra and the healthcare.gov company next.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/health/vaccine-nursing-homes-infections.html
tldr: Nursing home with 90% of elderly vaccinated is infected by unvaccinated staff, sets off outbreak.
What caught my attention was this line:
Resistance to vaccines has been steep among nursing home staffs nationwide,
What? I mean, of all the people, you're caring for the elderly who are ground zero for COVID deaths.
Maybe they want to kill off their customers.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 22, 2021, 08:11:18 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/health/vaccine-nursing-homes-infections.html
tldr: Nursing home with 90% of elderly vaccinated is infected by unvaccinated staff, sets off outbreak.
What caught my attention was this line:
Resistance to vaccines has been steep among nursing home staffs nationwide,
What? I mean, of all the people, you're caring for the elderly who are ground zero for COVID deaths.
Maybe they want to kill off their customers.
My theory:
Frontline workers have had a very challenging year, from Walgreens workers and dentists all the way up to actual healthcare professionals. In order to get over the mental hurdle of going to work every day during a pandemic, they needed to compartmentalize the risk to themselves in order to get to work every day no matter how bad it got. I think a surprising % of those people compartmentalized a little too hard and are now unwilling to consider the risk that the pandemic is still putting them, their loved ones, and their community in.
I appreciate that so many people put on their proverbial hard-hats and physically went to work during this thing. Now it's our job to give them a little counseling to get them through the traumatic stress.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 22, 2021, 08:11:18 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/health/vaccine-nursing-homes-infections.html
tldr: Nursing home with 90% of elderly vaccinated is infected by unvaccinated staff, sets off outbreak.
What caught my attention was this line:
Resistance to vaccines has been steep among nursing home staffs nationwide,
What? I mean, of all the people, you're caring for the elderly who are ground zero for COVID deaths.
Maybe they want to kill off their customers.
CNA licensing is easy to acquire. Pay is low. Can't force people to get vaccinated and nursing homes is already dangerously understaffed. If you require it quite a few will probably walk off the job. The way we treat our elderly and the way we treat those who care for them is shameful.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 21, 2021, 09:19:43 PM
Do solyndra and the healthcare.gov company next.
This isn't really a fair comparison. Solyndra did have some transformative technology, in a need area. What did them under was an unexpected 90% drop in the price of raw materials for silicon-based solar power devices, and illegal dumping and price fixing by Chinese manufacturers.
Apiject, was a bad choice from the get go, I believe I even commented on it here. They were never going to have anything ready in the timeframe needed, and didn't have the experience or preliminary data to support such a large investment.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 22, 2021, 08:36:15 AM
My theory:
Frontline workers have had a very challenging year, from Walgreens workers and dentists all the way up to actual healthcare professionals. In order to get over the mental hurdle of going to work every day during a pandemic, they needed to compartmentalize the risk to themselves in order to get to work every day no matter how bad it got. I think a surprising % of those people compartmentalized a little too hard and are now unwilling to consider the risk that the pandemic is still putting them, their loved ones, and their community in.
I appreciate that so many people put on their proverbial hard-hats and physically went to work during this thing. Now it's our job to give them a little counseling to get them through the traumatic stress.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 22, 2021, 08:38:40 AM
CNA licensing is easy to acquire. Pay is low. Can't force people to get vaccinated and nursing homes is already dangerously understaffed. If you require it quite a few will probably walk off the job. The way we treat our elderly and the way we treat those who care for them is shameful.
I think there is a lot of truth in both of these theories.
The other point - which Hards hints at it in his comment - is that many nursing home staff are not educated in the sense that most people think of when they hear 'healthcare professional.' Typically, they have little if any knowledge of biology, virology, epidemiology, etc. In that sense, although they do a critically important job that is worthy of respect (and higher pay), they probably don't have any more understanding of vaccine research and development than the average person on the street.
I wish their real-world experience with the elderly made them more likely to get the vaccine...but I understand why it isn't a given.
The ones that mystify me are the doctors and nurses who refuse.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 22, 2021, 08:53:15 AM
The ones that mystify me are the doctors and nurses who refuse.
The nurses I know (that went to MU) are deep into using and selling essential oils. It's a small sample size, but I'm not surprised that some are anti-vaxxers.
Excellent conversation about a sad story, Ska and Goooooooo.
Just got my 2nd Moderna shot. See you guys in 24 hours with a sob story. I'm pretty whiny when it comes to getting sick.
Got 2nd round of Pfizer 24 hours ago. Sore arm (like 1st dose) and a little chilly is about it so far.
2nd pfizer on Tuesday. A little achy yesterday, but still able to work. Fine today.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 22, 2021, 08:53:15 AM
I think there is a lot of truth in both of these theories.
The other point - which Hards hints at it in his comment - is that many nursing home staff are not educated in the sense that most people think of when they hear 'healthcare professional.' Typically, they have little if any knowledge of biology, virology, epidemiology, etc. In that sense, although they do a critically important job that is worthy of respect (and higher pay), they probably don't have any more understanding of vaccine research and development than the average person on the street.
I wish their real-world experience with the elderly made them more likely to get the vaccine...but I understand why it isn't a given.
The ones that mystify me are the doctors and nurses who refuse.
Re: "Some" Nurses and Doctors...
Fanaticism > science education
Fanaticism > anything
The learning curve for some people is just how far fanaticism goes in some situations. It's difficult to believe and difficult to understand because it defies logic and common sense.
My second Pfizer was last week... woke up briefly shivering that night. Next day had a small headache and a little brain fog but was back to normal by lunchtime. Felt like I got off easy based on some of the things I've heard.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 22, 2021, 01:49:38 PM
Just got my 2nd Moderna shot. See you guys in 24 hours with a sob story. I'm pretty whiny when it comes to getting sick.
Day 2 for me, brain fog, aches, and took a nap today. Surprised it didn't hit me harder.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 22, 2021, 03:36:16 PM
2nd pfizer on Tuesday. A little achy yesterday, but still able to work. Fine today.
Ditto. Arm a bit sore and a bit tired but otherwise nothing.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 22, 2021, 06:45:23 PM
Day 2 for me, brain fog, aches, and took a nap today. Surprised it didn't hit me harder.
Isn't that a normal day for you?
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 22, 2021, 07:57:47 PM
Isn't that a normal day for you?
The nap was a weekday addition.
Stupid motherfucker.
GOP Sen. Ron Jonhson Criticizes 'Big Push' To Get Everyone Vaccinated
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/04/22/gop-sen-ron-jonhson-criticizes-big-push-to-get-everyone-vaccinated/?sh=3aa5ee1c6b77
"Johnson said he is "getting highly suspicious" of the "big push to make sure everybody gets the vaccine," stating it's "not a fully approved vaccine" but also arguing that the fact it is 95% effective means only a limited number of people need to be vaccinated.
The comments put Johnson at odds with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who spent much of the last Senate recess urging Republican men to get vaccinated amid public opinion polling that shows they are the least likely to do so.
Johnson is one of the Senate's most prolific promoters of coronavirus pseudoscience, holding hearings last year as the chair of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee to promote unproven treatments like Hydroxychloroquine."
Russian tool.
Wisconsinites voted for him over Russ Fengold...twice. Think about that.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 22, 2021, 08:20:21 PM
Wisconsinites voted for him over Russ Fengold...twice. Think about that.
I think that also speaks to Feingold and people who were getting tired of him drifting further and further left. I can't believe they ran him again when Johnson got re-elected. Same way Evers won the other way, cause enough people were sick of Walker, not cause they were energized by Evers
And Johnson isn't a Russian pawn, he's just a fucking moron. A business career riding the coattails of his wife's family, literally from the minute he got out of school, I think any Republican with a functioning brain and a pulse beats Feingold in 2010, and indeed it was one who barely qualifies for those metrics. I mean he's stupid enough to think he can go against McConnell.
Quote from: JWags85 on April 22, 2021, 08:35:51 PM
I think that also speaks to Feingold and people who were getting tired of him drifting further and further left. I can't believe they ran him again when Johnson got re-elected. Same way Evers won the other way, cause enough people were sick of Walker, not cause they were energized by Evers
And Johnson isn't a Russian pawn, he's just a unnatural carnal knowledgeing moron. A business career riding the coattails of his wife's family, literally from the minute he got out of school, I think any Republican with a functioning brain and a pulse beats Feingold in 2010, and indeed it was one who barely qualifies for those metrics. I mean he's stupid enough to think he can go against McConnell.
Maybe not knowingly, anyway. But he has pushed Putin's agenda. He has claimed Putin has not interfered in our elections. His investigations involving Ukraine have greatly benefitted Russian disinformation. Russian linked spies have spoken to Johnson and his staff to push lies to the US public.
But, as you say, he is too stoopid to know that he is being used as a Russian asset
Quote from: JWags85 on April 22, 2021, 08:35:51 PM
I think that also speaks to Feingold and people who were getting tired of him drifting further and further left. I can't believe they ran him again when Johnson got re-elected. Same way Evers won the other way, cause enough people were sick of Walker, not cause they were energized by Evers
And Johnson isn't a Russian pawn, he's just a unnatural carnal knowledgeing moron. A business career riding the coattails of his wife's family, literally from the minute he got out of school, I think any Republican with a functioning brain and a pulse beats Feingold in 2010, and indeed it was one who barely qualifies for those metrics. I mean he's stupid enough to think he can go against McConnell.
lmao, yes that's what they were tired of, and then they proceeded to elect Tammy Baldwin. Hot take, buddy.
Ron Johnson got elected because he was an 'outsider' and a successful businessman. Now he is no longer an outsider, and has walked back his promise to only serve two terms.
He's going to get crushed in the general by almost anyone the Dems run against him. He is widely acknowledged as one of the most vulnerable senate seats to the point where the Dems hope he runs for a third term because he is that far down in polling.
Quote from: Jockey on April 22, 2021, 10:32:50 PM
Maybe not knowingly, anyway. But he has pushed Putin's agenda. He has claimed Putin has not interfered in our elections. His investigations involving Ukraine have greatly benefitted Russian disinformation. Russian linked spies have spoken to Johnson and his staff to push lies to the US public.
But, as you say, he is too stoopid to know that he is being used as a Russian asset
Beat me to it. He has carried Putin's water, and amplified Russian disinformation at every turn.
Perhaps it really is a case of him being monumentally stupid, but the consistency with which he aided Russia's efforts, coupled with his weird Fourth of July trip to Moscow, certainly raises the possibility it is intentional. He has literally parroted, time and time again, the disinformation of a known Russian spy.
Of course being a moron and being a Russian tool aren't mutually exclusive.
Quote from: JWags85 on April 22, 2021, 08:35:51 PM
I think that also speaks to Feingold and people who were getting tired of him drifting further and further left.
That really isn't accurate.
Last night (the evening after a 12 pm 2nd dose of Moderna) I felt baked, so I ordered Jet's pizza and chocolate ice cream. It was great. I made it until 10 pm and fell asleep immediately listening to the sultry voice of Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
Overnight I didn't have a fever, but my temperature control was all out of whack starting at midnight. Muscle aches and joint pain set in, which was mildly frustrating but nothing totally abnormal for a middle-aged dude. This morning I woke up and the muscle aches and swollen joints persisted, along with a serious case of foggy brain. It's about noon now, the day after the vaccine, and I'm feeling markedly better than this morning. I'm going to have soup for lunch and take it easy. Maybe eat a gummy and take a bath with Japanese mineral bath salts?
Not a bad experience overall compared to having the flu/cold, but I'm thankful I took yesterday afternoon and this morning off.
Chick and I get our second Moderna this afternoon. Trying to be as productive as possible in the run-up as we're not sure how well we'll feel tomorrow.
Good to see that most of Scoop are getting vaccinated.
A few anti-science outliers, but less than I expected.
Quote from: Jockey on April 23, 2021, 12:32:23 PM
Good to see that most of Scoop are getting vaccinated.
A few anti-science outliers, but less than I expected.
Absolutely! Way to go, Scoopers!
Quote from: jsglow on April 23, 2021, 11:59:35 AM
Chick and I get our second Moderna this afternoon. Trying to be as productive as possible in the run-up as we're not sure how well we'll feel tomorrow.
Got my 2nd Pfizer on Wednesday at 11am. Wednesday was fine until about 8pm. Thursday was definitely rougher than that. Almost back to 100% today.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 23, 2021, 11:35:58 AM
Last night (the evening after a 12 pm 2nd dose of Moderna) I felt baked, so I ordered Jet's pizza and chocolate ice cream. It was great. I made it until 10 pm and fell asleep immediately listening to the sultry voice of Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
Overnight I didn't have a fever, but my temperature control was all out of whack starting at midnight. Muscle aches and joint pain set in, which was mildly frustrating but nothing totally abnormal for a middle-aged dude. This morning I woke up and the muscle aches and swollen joints persisted, along with a serious case of foggy brain.
So no reaction to the vaccine at all? Just typical post-Jet's symptoms? ;D ;D
But from one Jet's fan to another, glad you're feeling better already, Skat.
Glad to hear Dano and Ska are doing better.
I do think this is important:
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 23, 2021, 11:35:58 AM
Not a bad experience overall compared to having the flu/cold, but I'm thankful I took yesterday afternoon and this morning off.
Employers should give those recovering from the vaccine a day off with pay.
I had the first Pfizer vaccine. No issues, mild delayed temporary site soreness for a few hours. (My 91 year old relative completed both Moderna doses earlier in April and had no problems either time. Everyone else in our family/group had Pfizer, no side effects.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on April 23, 2021, 12:52:42 PM
Got my 2nd Pfizer on Wednesday at 11am. Wednesday was fine until about 8pm. Thursday was definitely rougher than that. Almost back to 100% today.
We're hoping to be 100% by Sunday, Monday at the latest.
Quote from: jsglow on April 23, 2021, 11:59:35 AM
Chick and I get our second Moderna this afternoon. Trying to be as productive as possible in the run-up as we're not sure how well we'll feel tomorrow.
Workin' the weekend? ;D
Went to the chiropractor today for my weekly adjustment. After all.of the joint pain, had a bunch of joints in my back and neck loosen up, which is a bonus.
Quote from: jsglow on April 23, 2021, 02:01:44 PM
We're hoping to be 100% by Sunday, Monday at the latest.
Hoping you are close to 100% tonight.
Quote from: Jockey on April 23, 2021, 05:59:22 PM
Hoping you are close to 100% tonight.
:) I may need a medicinal beverage. Doctor's orders.
Wife and I got 2nd dose of Pfizer last Saturday. I had some moderate body aches on Saturday night/Sun Morn but after a couple Tylenol i felt fine and they never returned. Wife had a sore arm but no other side effects.
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 23, 2021, 01:04:15 PM
So no reaction to the vaccine at all? Just typical post-Jet's symptoms? ;D ;D
But from one Jet's fan to another, glad you're feeling better already, Skat.
I just had more Jet's to test this theory, lol
Quote from: MU82 on April 23, 2021, 01:13:59 PM
Glad to hear Dano and Ska are doing better.
I do think this is important:
Employers should give those recovering from the vaccine a day off with pay.
My employer told us we didn't have to take PTO if we weren't feeling well after getting the vaccine. I originally sent out an email saying I was going to be offline most of the day after my 2nd Pfizer dose as I wasn't feeling well. The problem with working from home though is it's too easy to check in on things like I did when I couldn't sleep and I ended up working quite a bit that day. But it definitely wasn't a full day that I put in and I was appreciative that they said you didn't have to take PTO. They also said you didn't have to take PTO if you were going to get your vaccine during a work day.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on April 23, 2021, 09:14:07 PM
My employer told us we didn't have to take PTO if we weren't feeling well after getting the vaccine. I originally sent out an email saying I was going to be offline most of the day after my 2nd Pfizer dose as I wasn't feeling well. The problem with working from home though is it's too easy to check in on things like I did when I couldn't sleep and I ended up working quite a bit that day. But it definitely wasn't a full day that I put in and I was appreciative that they said you didn't have to take PTO. They also said you didn't have to take PTO if you were going to get your vaccine during a work day.
Bravo to your employer.
I get my second Pfizer vaccine today.
Regarding nursing home staff not being vaccinated, that should be expected.
The three craziest Q/Trumpers I used to see on Facebookare all friends and 'nurses'. They all work at one big nursing home between McHenry and Crystal Lake.
They all work there after previously having hospital experience. Just seemed off, so I asked a mutual friend during the pandemic as these 'healthcare professionals' were routinely sounding off against science.
They were all terminated from their previous jobs due for refusing to get the flu shot. A couple bounced around between locations, but they all ended up at one nursing home that doesn't require the flu shot. Clearly won't require the vaccine.
For those with family in homes, it's a question worthy of asking.
Quote from: Retire0 on April 24, 2021, 07:44:37 AM
Regarding nursing home staff not being vaccinated, that should be expected.
The three craziest Q/Trumpers I used to see on Facebookare all friends and 'nurses'. They all work at one big nursing home between McHenry and Crystal Lake.
They all work there after previously having hospital experience. Just seemed off, so I asked a mutual friend during the pandemic as these 'healthcare professionals' were routinely sounding off against science.
They were all terminated from their previous jobs due for refusing to get the flu shot. A couple bounced around between locations, but they all ended up at one nursing home that doesn't require the flu shot. Clearly won't require the vaccine.
For those with family in homes, it's a question worthy of asking.
That's a great pro-tip. It should be in the marketing for those homes, too, that there are basic safety requirements for all staff hired (got your shot, no elder-abuse history, no violent felonies, etc).
For those who think vaccine passports will never happen, consider what the New York Yankees are currently doing:
https://www.mlb.com/yankees/ballpark/health-and-safety/testing-requirements-faq
If state and local governments continue to restrict access to sporting events, teams and leagues could create demand for the development of a full vaccine passport system in an attempt to get exemptions from the restrictions.
And California baseball teams are now relaxing social distancing guidelines for certain sections were fans have provided proof of vaccination.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31317945/san-francisco-giants-los-angeles-dodgers-relax-protocols-fully-vaccinated-fans
Just met up with 2 other couples that think covid deaths were being written down for profits, and that it's not that dangerous unless you have 2 or more comorbidities, but all were vaccinated. Good news.
anecdotal, but we've seen it with a few posters here too.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on April 24, 2021, 07:18:58 PM
For those who think vaccine passports will never happen, consider what the New York Yankees are currently doing:
https://www.mlb.com/yankees/ballpark/health-and-safety/testing-requirements-faq
If state and local governments continue to restrict access to sporting events, teams and leagues could create demand for the development of a full vaccine passport system in an attempt to get exemptions from the restrictions.
How about people have the option. A vaccine passport, or to go to many places, you have to get a 15-min rapid test, and cannot enter til you test negative. Charge those people $50-100 for the test.
So they have the entire right to not get vaccinated, it will just end up costing them.
I'm starting to get concerned, and irritated that we will likely see COVID persist indefinitely, because people refuse to get a vaccine.
My guess is that we will see a surge in the fall. Rates are starting to drop as people get vaccinated and the weather gets warmer. Hopefully we will see enough vaccination to make a difference.
EDIT: And I have noticed that people are just done. At least here, no one is enforcing local mask mandates or distancing requirements. For better or worse, this is the course we are on.
Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I think vaccine surveys are overestimating vaccine hesitancy.
I think people who are private and more conservative by nature, are conditioned not to tell a stranger from Gallup a piece of medical information, so their default is a no, or not right now. A bit like the Trump effect in polling back in 2016...but this is just a hunch, but I remain hopeful that as more and more people get it, it will have some carryover effect of neighbors, friends, family, church members, seeing people they care and trust get it, and in turn they will get it too. I remind myself, the vaccine has really been available to the public for 3-4 months, give people a bit more time, and continue to work on those who are hesitant, not the hardcore 10-15% who are nutso wackaloon about it.
What supports your POV reinko is that vaccination rates continue to grow steadily. It topped off this week due to J&J, but we will see if prior trends continue for the next couple of months.
Quote from: reinko on April 25, 2021, 07:24:36 AM
Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I think vaccine surveys are overestimating vaccine hesitancy.
I think people who are private and more conservative by nature, are conditioned not to tell a stranger from Gallup a piece of medical information, so their default is a no, or not right now. A bit like the Trump effect in polling back in 2016...but this is just a hunch, but I remain hopeful that as more and more people get it, it will have some carryover effect of neighbors, friends, family, church members, seeing people they care and trust get it, and in turn they will get it too. I remind myself, the vaccine has really been available to the public for 3-4 months, give people a bit more time, and continue to work on those who are hesitant, not the hardcore 10-15% who are nutso wackaloon about it.
A contact at one of my suppliers is a Trumper and did not want to get a vaccine. He did get it as his wife made him and he said he feels pretty good now that he did.
Quote from: reinko on April 25, 2021, 07:24:36 AM
Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I think vaccine surveys are overestimating vaccine hesitancy.
I think people who are private and more conservative by nature, are conditioned not to tell a stranger from Gallup a piece of medical information, so their default is a no, or not right now. A bit like the Trump effect in polling back in 2016...but this is just a hunch, but I remain hopeful that as more and more people get it, it will have some carryover effect of neighbors, friends, family, church members, seeing people they care and trust get it, and in turn they will get it too. I remind myself, the vaccine has really been available to the public for 3-4 months, give people a bit more time, and continue to work on those who are hesitant, not the hardcore 10-15% who are nutso wackaloon about it.
I think you are probably right. But I hope those people don't wait too long, so we can avoid another big surge in the summer or fall.
Quote from: reinko on April 25, 2021, 07:24:36 AM
Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I think vaccine surveys are overestimating vaccine hesitancy.
I think people who are private and more conservative by nature, are conditioned not to tell a stranger from Gallup a piece of medical information, so their default is a no, or not right now. A bit like the Trump effect in polling back in 2016...but this is just a hunch, but I remain hopeful that as more and more people get it, it will have some carryover effect of neighbors, friends, family, church members, seeing people they care and trust get it, and in turn they will get it too. I remind myself, the vaccine has really been available to the public for 3-4 months, give people a bit more time, and continue to work on those who are hesitant, not the hardcore 10-15% who are nutso wackaloon about it.
And not even the full public that long. WI opened up full eligibility the last week of March. That's a month. And WI is doing very well in terms of % of the population vaxxed.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 25, 2021, 02:18:04 PM
And not even the full public that long. WI opened up full eligibility the last week of March. That's a month. And WI is doing very well in terms of % of the population vaxxed.
I think JNJ coming back will be popular with the younger set as well. We've entered a new phase in CT where vaccine supply is always open. Now its convincing people to take it. Even with that, the 1st dose coverage seems linear (65+ 89% -- then basically steps down 10 pts per 10 year band thereafter) -- so every age group seems to be taking based on when the doses became available to them.
35 hours after Pfizer shot #2 and limited arm soreness. That's it hopefully (knock on wood).
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 25, 2021, 07:07:59 AM
EDIT: And I have noticed that people are just done. At least here, no one is enforcing local mask mandates or distancing requirements. For better or worse, this is the course we are on.
Where is "here" for you? Admittedly my perspective is skewed by a) going into quarantine/mask/distancing later than most but still over a year ago and b) I'm an old family guy so even though we live in a very bar/restaurant dense area my exposure is mostly pre 9PM. But in KC I don't see anyone unmasked or not socially distancing when out and about.
I'm sure if I was in my 20's and lived a couple miles closer to downtown I may have a different experience.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 25, 2021, 08:08:49 PM
35 hours after Pfizer shot #2 and limited arm soreness. That's it hopefully (knock on wood).
Yeah, you're in the clear. ;D
JNJ shots ready to roll again, thank goodness.
Quote from: MU82 on April 26, 2021, 12:52:10 PM
JNJ shots ready to roll again, thank goodness.
Yep. Great for all the people who are hesitant about the novelty of mRNA vaccines and/or the inconvenience of two-shot regimens.
Saw a survey today where 43% of republicans say they will never get the vaccine.
There is a reason why we (liberals) think republicans are stupid. They keep showing us that they are.
Two thirds of CT residents over 16 have received the first shot.
The next frontier is work and university where people want to go back and companies/schools are bringing the vaccine there. Now that the supply is unlimited it's another peer pressure oppty to convince people.
I think the polls and attempt to sort people will prove to be hyperbole/overstated. We all need to get back to reality vs what digital world portrays.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 26, 2021, 07:21:30 PM
Two thirds of CT residents over 16 have received the first shot.
The next frontier is work and university where people want to go back and companies/schools are bringing the vaccine there. Now that the supply is unlimited it's another peer pressure oppty to convince people.
I think the polls and attempt to sort people will prove to be hyperbole/overstated. We all need to get back to reality vs what digital world portrays.
I disagree with your last point. The 20 states that have used the lowest percentage of vaccines received are red states. These people have bought what trump and Fox are selling. That isn't going to change.
Quote from: Jockey on April 26, 2021, 07:01:39 PM
Saw a survey today where 43% of republicans say they will never get the vaccine.
There is a reason why we (liberals) think republicans are stupid. They keep showing us that they are.
Literally a life and death issue that they've turned into another ridiculously partisan issue. They simultaneously want to reign accolades on Trump for single handedly creating the vaccine while also refusing to take it.
The definition of 'republican' is always narrower than you think and inspired to spark exasperation.
90%+ of CT over 65 is vaccinated and a lot of republicans (both registered and independent) are in that number.
We need to improve access and education/peer pressure and not sort people.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 26, 2021, 08:03:20 PM
The definition of 'republican' is always narrower than you think and inspired to spark exasperation.
90%+ of CT over 65 is vaccinated and a lot of republicans (both registered and independent) are in that number.
We need to improve access and education/peer pressure and not sort people.
Ideally, you are right. But if you think republicans in Connecticut are the same as republicans in red states, I got a bridge to sell you.
I received my 2nd dose this morning and the place was a ghost town. Day of my first shot over 1500 registered and today under 700. I think the % that skip the second dose is going to be much higher than current reports.
I know everyone has had different experiences with side effects, but how long after the shot will I be in the clear?
Quote from: Goose on April 27, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
I received my 2nd dose this morning and the place was a ghost town. Day of my first shot over 1500 registered and today under 700. I think the % that skip the second dose is going to be much higher than current reports.
I know everyone has had different experiences with side affects, but how long after the shot will I be in the clear?
I saw a figure yesterday that 5-8% are past due for the second dose.
Quote from: Goose on April 27, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
I received my 2nd dose this morning and the place was a ghost town. Day of my first shot over 1500 registered and today under 700. I think the % that skip the second dose is going to be much higher than current reports.
I know everyone has had different experiences with side effects, but how long after the shot will I be in the clear?
FWIW - I got mine at about 5 pm on Day 1, no impact outside sore arm on Day 1. Woke up fuzzy headed on Day 2, was pretty tired all day, crashed about an hour or two ahead of normal. Woke up with no lingering side effects on Day 3.
Putting the duh in Flori-duh.
Florida private school won't allow teachers, staff to get COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/2021/04/27/florida-private-school-wont-allow-teachers-staff-to-get-covid-19-vaccine/
A private school in Miami is warning its staff against getting a COVID-19 vaccine.
Centner Academy said its school policy, to the extent possible, not to employ anyone who has gotten a coronavirus vaccine until further information is known.
"This is a private school. It's not a public school. So, generally, a private employer in Florida can fire someone for any reason or no reason at all," said Carter Sox, an employment lawyer.
Quote from: pbiflyer on April 27, 2021, 12:04:28 PM
Putting the duh in Flori-duh.
Florida private school won't allow teachers, staff to get COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/2021/04/27/florida-private-school-wont-allow-teachers-staff-to-get-covid-19-vaccine/
A private school in Miami is warning its staff against getting a COVID-19 vaccine.
Centner Academy said its school policy, to the extent possible, not to employ anyone who has gotten a coronavirus vaccine until further information is known.
"This is a private school. It's not a public school. So, generally, a private employer in Florida can fire someone for any reason or no reason at all," said Carter Sox, an employment lawyer.
That's pretty insane, even for Florida. I have to wonder (legal folks?) if a teacher got COVID and died, because they work at the school and couldn't get the vaccine, would there be potential liability for the school?
Beyond just financial liability, could a decision maker actually be criminally liable, e.g. negligent homicide. I know other institutions and decision makers have faced criminal liability for failure to provide workplace safety/training when deaths or injury arise, why not the same for directly putting workers in danger of COVID.
Quote from: pbiflyer on April 27, 2021, 12:04:28 PM
Putting the duh in Flori-duh.
Florida private school won't allow teachers, staff to get COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/2021/04/27/florida-private-school-wont-allow-teachers-staff-to-get-covid-19-vaccine/
A private school in Miami is warning its staff against getting a COVID-19 vaccine.
Centner Academy said its school policy, to the extent possible, not to employ anyone who has gotten a coronavirus vaccine until further information is known.
"This is a private school. It's not a public school. So, generally, a private employer in Florida can fire someone for any reason or no reason at all," said Carter Sox, an employment lawyer.
Where are the right-wingers to complain about this school intruding on people's freedom?
Canceling jobs.
Quote from: Goose on April 27, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
I received my 2nd dose this morning and the place was a ghost town. Day of my first shot over 1500 registered and today under 700. I think the % that skip the second dose is going to be much higher than current reports.
I know everyone has had different experiences with side effects, but how long after the shot will I be in the clear?
If you don't have side effects by tomorrow morning, you should be good to go.
BTW, testing has shown that for those who only get the 1st dose, it is about 80% preventing Covid.
Quote from: TSmith34 on April 27, 2021, 01:09:33 PM
Where are the right-wingers to complain about this school intruding on people's freedom?
This school is idiotic. Happy?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 27, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
This school is idiotic. Happy?
I was more thinking of the blabbers on 1,500 Am radio stations, Fox, Oan, Newsmax, Blaze, Red State, dipshytes in Congress with GEDs, etc. etc.
Not that you don't broadcast to a massive audience yourself or anything.
Quote from: Jockey on April 27, 2021, 01:35:52 PM
If you don't have side effects by tomorrow morning, you should be good to go.
BTW, testing has shown that for those who only get the 1st dose, it is about 80% preventing Covid.
Our neighbor's brother just got COVID-19 about 6 days after getting his first dose. I don't know whether it was Moderna or Pfizer. Not 100% sure where he got it, but he did take a commercial flight, so either on the plane or at the airport is a decent guess. He had to go to the hospital because he was having trouble breathing, but now back home and doing pretty well.
But yes, I also have seen that a couple weeks after the first dose it's highly unlikely that one will catch COVID-19.
Keep in mind, it can still take a couple weeks after exposure to develop symptoms (which has been the crazy/difficult part of covid). So this person may have been infected before being vaccinated.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 27, 2021, 08:49:31 PM
Keep in mind, it can still take a couple weeks after exposure to develop symptoms (which has been the crazy/difficult part of covid). So this person may have been infected before being vaccinated.
True.
Connecticut State Senate passed last night ending the religious exemption for vaccines.
Going to the Governor for signature.
There were 4,000 protestors trying to stop it claiming the usual "freedom", "liberty" and " just like forcing us to wear masks" led by Robert Kennedy Jr of course.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 28, 2021, 05:31:05 AM
Connecticut State Senate passed last night ending the religious exemption for vaccines.
Going to the Governor for signature.
There were 4,000 protestors trying to stop it claiming the usual "freedom", "liberty" and " just like forcing us to wear masks" led by Robert Kennedy Jr of course.
Good.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 28, 2021, 05:31:05 AM
Connecticut State Senate passed last night ending the religious exemption for vaccines.
Going to the Governor for signature.
There were 4,000 protestors trying to stop it claiming the usual "freedom", "liberty" and " just like forcing us to wear masks" led by Robert Kennedy Jr of course.
What religions prohibit vaccines? I did a quick Google and couldn't find any.
This kind of reminds me of people pulling the HIPAA card when it doesn't apply.
Quote from: MU82 on April 27, 2021, 07:06:57 PM
Our neighbor's brother just got COVID-19 about 6 days after getting his first dose. I don't know whether it was Moderna or Pfizer. Not 100% sure where he got it, but he did take a commercial flight, so either on the plane or at the airport is a decent guess. He had to go to the hospital because he was having trouble breathing, but now back home and doing pretty well.
But yes, I also have seen that a couple weeks after the first dose it's highly unlikely that one will catch COVID-19.
Uhhhhh he got it because he didn't fully develop antibodies. Amazing that some folks will act like they're invincible the second they get their first jab.
The real strength of the vaccine isn't realized until 2 weeks after the final dose.
Yes, I'm fully aware that there is some resistance shortly after getting any dose... but there are more than a few people who are rolling the dice when they shouldn't be.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 28, 2021, 05:31:05 AM
Connecticut State Senate passed last night ending the religious exemption for vaccines.
Going to the Governor for signature.
There were 4,000 protestors trying to stop it claiming the usual "freedom", "liberty" and " just like forcing us to wear masks" led by Robert Kennedy Jr of course.
Protestors screamed "My child, My choice". These same protestors demonize women who say "My body, My choice".
Irony lives.
Quote from: Jockey on April 28, 2021, 12:10:21 PM
Protestors screamed "My child, My choice". These same protestors demonize women who say "My body, My choice".
Irony lives.
At first that was on purpose to get people tilted. Just like any ironic joke that gains steam on the internet, it quickly attracted idiots that took up the mantle to make it a reality.
Quote from: Jockey on April 28, 2021, 12:10:21 PM
Protestors screamed "My child, My choice". These same protestors demonize women who say "My body, My choice".
Irony lives.
And it's so stupid!
"My child, my choice that my kid doesn't get mumps from unvaccinated kid!"
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 28, 2021, 12:08:44 PM
Uhhhhh he got it because he didn't fully develop antibodies. Amazing that some folks will act like they're invincible the second they get their first jab.
The real strength of the vaccine isn't realized until 2 weeks after the final dose.
Yes, I'm fully aware that there is some resistance shortly after getting any dose... but there are more than a few people who are rolling the dice when they shouldn't be.
We agree. I just said it wasn't known where he got it; how he got it is easier to figure.
A new program from the State of Connecticut to encourage people to get vaccinated.
https://www.ctvisit.com/articles/DrinksOnUs
Drinks Are On Us!
LAST UPDATED: APRIL 2021
Have you been vaccinated? Then you're eligible for a free drink! The Connecticut Restaurant Association is partnering with Governor Lamont and the State of Connecticut to launch the #CTDrinksOnUs campaign, where participating Connecticut restaurants will offer complimentary drinks to patrons beginning on May 19. To take part in the promotion which will run through the end of May, customers simply show that they have received either one or both doses of a COVID vaccine, at which point they can select from a list of pre-set drinks (alcoholic or non-alcoholic) established by each participating restaurant. The promotion limits drinks to one per person and the purchase of food is required.
Here's a list of restaurants participating in #CTDrinksOnUs.
If you are a restaurant and want to participate in this program, click here to register.
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1387823927381184515?s=20
Concerning stats about the drop off in vaccination rates since the J&J pause. As I suspected at the time, I think that is going to go down as a completely irresponsible decision by the FDA. It has fueled anti-vax beliefs and killed the momentum that had been building for weeks.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2021, 12:47:29 PM
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1387823927381184515?s=20
Concerning stats about the drop off in vaccination rates since the J&J pause. As I suspected at the time, I think that is going to go down as a completely irresponsible decision by the FDA. It has fueled anti-vax beliefs and killed the momentum that had been building for weeks.
Quoting Nate Silver is about as impactful as quoting me.
here is a counter-point.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-preference/2021/04/28/75ee6662-a770-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-preference/2021/04/28/75ee6662-a770-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 29, 2021, 12:52:56 PM
Quoting Nate Silver is about as impactful as quoting me.
here is a counter-point.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-preference/2021/04/28/75ee6662-a770-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-preference/2021/04/28/75ee6662-a770-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html)
Silver's stuff is based on math and science. I understand why many people reject it.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 29, 2021, 12:52:56 PM
Quoting Nate Silver is about as impactful as quoting me.
here is a counter-point.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-preference/2021/04/28/75ee6662-a770-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-preference/2021/04/28/75ee6662-a770-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html)
Nothing that is said there counters the actual numbers. And Silver is quoting someone else. Who has...you know...actual data to back it up.
Would have been better to quote "people are saying."
Quote from: Jockey on April 29, 2021, 01:31:12 PM
Silver's stuff is based on math and science. I understand why many people reject it.
And he is frequently wrong. See: Presidential Election 2016 Also: Presidential Election 2020.
His reliance on faulty info and then basing his conclusions on this info has made him lose a ton of credibility.
Again, he is simply retweeting someone else.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2021, 02:07:53 PM
Again, he is simply retweeting someone else.
Really? He added his commentary as well. I'm just saying he kind of sucks... often.
Nate Silver
@NateSilver538
·
1h
Fairly convincing data that the J&J pause was responsible for a considerable decline in vaccination rates. Hopefully these trends will level off or reverse themselves.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 29, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
Really? He added his commentary as well. I'm just saying he kind of sucks... often.
Nate Silver
@NateSilver538
·
1h
Fairly convincing data that the J&J pause was responsible for a considerable decline in vaccination rates. Hopefully these trends will level off or reverse themselves.
Well he's right. Vaccination rates, including the Pfizer and Modera shots, have dropped off since the J&J pause.
Glad that you guys are obsessed with who is sending the message instead of the FDA's f*ck up.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2021, 02:37:31 PM
Well he's right. Vaccination rates, including the Pfizer and Modera shots, have dropped off since the J&J pause.
And you and I both know that correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 29, 2021, 02:39:53 PM
And you and I both know that correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation.
I'm sure you have another valid explanation right?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2021, 02:44:59 PM
I'm sure you have another valid explanation right?
People with easy access and high enthusiasm are vaccinated. So numbers will naturally decrease.
easy.
Right. And this all happened right after the J&J pause. Just a massive coincidence.
Cmon....states started opening up to all adults 16+ a week or two earlier. There SHOULD have been a massive surge in vaccinations. Not a decrease.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2021, 02:50:51 PM
Right. And this all happened right after the J&J pause. Just a massive coincidence.
Cmon....states started opening up to all adults 16+ a week or two earlier. There SHOULD have been a massive surge in vaccinations. Not a decrease.
I'm just offering another correlation without causation as well. That's what you wanted, after all.
Just got exposed. Patient who tested positive within the last 48 hours. Going to be interested to see how the anti bodies plus two vaccines hold up.
Quote from: tower912 on April 29, 2021, 03:10:38 PM
Just got exposed. Patient who tested positive within the last 48 hours. Going to be interested to see how the anti bodies plus two vaccines hold up.
You have to have a Teflon immune system by now.
I hope so.
Quote from: tower912 on April 29, 2021, 04:19:06 PM
I hope so.
If not, we are all screwed. Good luck and good health!
Quote from: tower912 on April 29, 2021, 03:10:38 PM
Just got exposed. Patient who tested positive within the last 48 hours. Going to be interested to see how the anti bodies plus two vaccines hold up.
Good luck. The stats on the vaccines' effectiveness give you a great chance to get by unscathed, and the fact that you had COVID should help even more.
Quote from: tower912 on April 29, 2021, 03:10:38 PM
Just got exposed. Patient who tested positive within the last 48 hours. Going to be interested to see how the anti bodies plus two vaccines hold up.
I hope for, and expect a good result for you.
Just in case though, make sure your will is updated to include who should take over for game re-caps. 8-)
Nah. Next man up, ai'na?
Quote from: tower912 on April 30, 2021, 02:33:37 PM
Nah. Next man up, ai'na?
Shut up and cough.
(Best wishes on a strong immune system.)
Here is a chart that shows when supply started to exceed demand and the gradual building of excess doses. I am hard pressed to think 4/13 was the main catalyst with this view. So many things go into vaccine hesitancy at this stage...
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1388885929809498115?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1388885929809498115?s=21)
Quote from: tower912 on April 29, 2021, 03:10:38 PM
Just got exposed. Patient who tested positive within the last 48 hours. Going to be interested to see how the anti bodies plus two vaccines hold up.
any test yet? stay healthy-we're all pulling for ya!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html
Reaching 'Herd Immunity' Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe
Widely circulating coronavirus variants and persistent hesitancy about vaccines will keep the goal out of reach. The virus is here to stay...
Great, great great. :(
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on May 03, 2021, 07:43:00 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html
Reaching 'Herd Immunity' Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe
Widely circulating coronavirus variants and persistent hesitancy about vaccines will keep the goal out of reach. The virus is here to stay...
Great, great great. :(
Jeez you just lopped off the second half of the sentence.
"...but vaccinating the most vulnerable may be enough to restore normalcy."
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 03, 2021, 07:55:41 AM
Jeez you just lopped off the second half of the sentence.
"...but vaccinating the most vulnerable may be enough to restore normalcy."
I err on the side of doom.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 03, 2021, 07:55:41 AM
Jeez you just lopped off the second half of the sentence.
"...but vaccinating the most vulnerable may be enough to restore normalcy."
It still means the virus is here to stay. Which moving forward means a lot of unnecessary death and disability from something we have the capacity to eradicate.
Quote from: forgetful on May 03, 2021, 08:50:31 AM
It still means the virus is here to stay. Which moving forward means a lot of unnecessary death and disability from something we have the capacity to eradicate.
I don't believe the goal was ever eradication.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 03, 2021, 09:03:58 AM
I don't believe the goal was ever eradication.
If you have a vaccine the goal is eradication.
https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/phase-3-trial-shows-regen-covtm-casirivimab-imdevimab-antibody
Great news. If vaccine hesitancy or refusal remains around 30% of population the monoclonal antibody work being done will go along way to treating/managing the low level of activity that does appear to be here moving forward.
Hopefully the general takeaway from the last 12+ months is to get healthy. If you're overweight lose some lbs. If you have underlying health issues because of bad diet or habits make the necessary changes.
If you're healthy Covid is very manageable, not 100% obviously but what is in life.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on May 03, 2021, 09:22:31 AM
If you have a vaccine the goal is eradication.
That's never been the goal for the flu.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 03, 2021, 11:11:27 AM
That's never been the goal for the flu.
Based on where we are at, is future state going to be similar to what the flu is now? Can cause deaths to the elderly and those with health issues. Annual vaccine.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 03, 2021, 11:11:27 AM
That's never been the goal for the flu.
The flu is a very different beast, both from a genetics and epidemiological perspective. It is actually quite unreasonable to eradicate it.
SARS-COV2 could be, and should be eradicated.
Chick and I were at an important social function this weekend, delayed exactly 364 days from when it had been originally scheduled. There were many lifelong friends there we hadn't seen in person in over a year. Most folks the topic came up with either had one or both shots in their arm already. A very few were choosing not to but to a person expected no special treatment from anyone. It was the best social gathering we've had in over a year by far. And it was about damned time.
Reports that Pfizer will be OK'd for 12-15 year olds. As soon as it is official, we will be scheduling.
There have been people chomping at the bit on the Vaccine Hunters group for a while now wondering what's taking so long -I've been like dude, let them do the job right....
At least two people wondered if they could get their fifteen year olds vaccinated now with parental consent because 'they are very tall and look adult'..... We were like, Um, no, and don't try it...
"anonymous sources" must of have whispered this to ole sleepy during one of his story time naps-over 200 million vaccines?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-announces-200-million-vaccine-dose-goal-met/story?id=77216487
did his subscription to wapo expire?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/
no need to fact check anymore though cuz sleepy chooses "truth over facts"...and this is easy stuff man. if his kiddo is the smartest guy he knows, we are in bigger trouble than getting vaccinated or not. we need the truth AND the facts. we're only 100 days in and my boots don't go any higher man
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 03, 2021, 08:24:43 PM
"anonymous sources" must of have whispered this to ole sleepy during one of his story time naps-over 200 million vaccines?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-announces-200-million-vaccine-dose-goal-met/story?id=77216487
did his subscription to wapo expire?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/
no need to fact check anymore though cuz sleepy chooses "truth over facts"...and this is easy stuff man. if his kiddo is the smartest guy he knows, we are in bigger trouble than getting vaccinated or not. we need the truth AND the facts. we're only 100 days in and my boots don't go any higher man
I might not be following the outrage here but is it in reference to 200 million vs. 147.5 million? The former references doses, the latter individuals.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 03, 2021, 08:24:43 PM
"anonymous sources" must of have whispered this to ole sleepy during one of his story time naps-over 200 million vaccines?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-announces-200-million-vaccine-dose-goal-met/story?id=77216487
did his subscription to wapo expire?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/
no need to fact check anymore though cuz sleepy chooses "truth over facts"...and this is easy stuff man. if his kiddo is the smartest guy he knows, we are in bigger trouble than getting vaccinated or not. we need the truth AND the facts. we're only 100 days in and my boots don't go any higher man
BDS
Quote from: lostpassword on May 03, 2021, 08:53:57 PM
I might not be following the outrage here but is it in reference to 200 million vs. 147.5 million? The former references doses, the latter individuals.
Lol.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 03, 2021, 08:24:43 PM
"anonymous sources" must of have whispered this to ole sleepy during one of his story time naps-over 200 million vaccines?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-announces-200-million-vaccine-dose-goal-met/story?id=77216487 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-announces-200-million-vaccine-dose-goal-met/story?id=77216487)
did his subscription to wapo expire?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/health/covid-vaccine-states-distribution-doses/)
no need to fact check anymore though cuz sleepy chooses "truth over facts"...and this is easy stuff man. if his kiddo is the smartest guy he knows, we are in bigger trouble than getting vaccinated or not. we need the truth AND the facts. we're only 100 days in and my boots don't go any higher man
From your WAPO link headlines: This includes more than 105.5 million people who have been fully vaccinated.
312.5 million doses have been distributed.
We need our boots for your posts.
Fucker Carlson once again spreading disinformation and doubt about the vaccine. Good job Fux News Republics.
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1389373008276557829?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1389373008276557829%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffpost.com%2Fentry%2Ftucker-carlson-creepy-barack-obama_n_6090ec7ce4b05af50dc72e80
Quote from: lostpassword on May 03, 2021, 08:53:57 PM
I might not be following the outrage here but is it in reference to 200 million vs. 147.5 million? The former references doses, the latter individuals.
Cur him some slack, its hard work showing exactly how painfully stupid you are day after day, and boy is he working hard.
Quote from: tower912 on May 03, 2021, 05:13:56 PM
Reports that Pfizer will be OK'd for 12-15 year olds. As soon as it is official, we will be scheduling.
Us too!
WaPo with an article on the many vaccine cynics who changed their minds, going from "no" to "yes."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/05/03/vaccine-hesitant-americans-change-minds-debeaumont-foundation/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F322c9ca%2F60916f759d2fdae30242b1aa%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F8%2F69%2F60916f759d2fdae30242b1aa
Kim Simmons, a 61-year-old small-business owner in Illinois, vividly remembers the moment she went from vaccine skeptic to vaccine-ready: watching a Johns Hopkins University doctor on C-SPAN make the case for why the shots are safe.
For Lauren Bergner, a 39-year-old homemaker in New Jersey, it was when she realized it would make it easier for her family to attend New York Yankees games, after the team announced fans would need to show proof of a negative coronavirus test or that they had been vaccinated.
And for Elizabeth Greenaway, a 34-year-old communications consultant in Pennsylvania, it was the sudden fear that if she got sick, she wasn't sure who would take care of her 2-year-old daughter, who has a rare health condition.
"Thinking about herd immunity, thinking about my daughter, thinking about all of that, I just realized — it's about being a part of something bigger than yourself," said Greenaway, who's had to cut back on work to care for her daughter.
Simmons, Bergner and Greenaway are among the growing number of vaccine skeptics turned vaccinated Americans, a sign of hope amid the slowing pace of vaccinations nationwide. Almost half of all adults have yet to receive a first shot although they are now eligible, and the rolling rate of new shots has dropped to its lowest level since mid-March.
The emergence of these mind-changers suggests that at least some vaccine-wary Americans are willing to reconsider when their concerns are addressed by those they regard as credible.
Their conversions — along with those of 16 other former skeptics who joined a focus group last week — have drawn intense interest from White House officials and public health experts, hoping to re-create those moments for the tens of millions of Americans who remain in the "no" camp. Experts fear that failing to achieve high levels of immunity could prolong the pandemic in the United States, particularly if unvaccinated people continue to be infected and the virus continues to mutate as it spreads.
A cop friend of mine told me a story about taking his 17 year old daughter to get her shot past some aggressive protestors. Yelling at her that she would never have children, accusing him of being a bad parent. He had words with them after.
I am half hoping I get d!psh!ts like that when I take my son. That would be fun. Plus, he gets the giggles every time somebody swears, so I will have him in stitches for an extended period of time.
Quote from: tower912 on May 04, 2021, 01:02:25 PM
A cop friend of mine told me a story about taking his 17 year old daughter to get her shot past some aggressive protestors. Yelling at her that she would never have children, accusing him of being a bad parent. He had words with them after.
I am half hoping I get d!psh!ts like that when I take my son. That would be fun. Plus, he gets the giggles every time somebody swears, so I will have him in stitches for an extended period of time.
What the eff is wrong with people?
And now ... here is the single most effed-up vaccine-related thing I have read, and that's really saying something given all the effed up sh!t out there ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/02/us/miami-centner-academy-coronavirus-vaccine.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20210504&instance_id=30199&nl=updates-from-the-newsroom®i_id=108420427&segment_id=57198&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
MIAMI — A fifth-grade math and science teacher peddled a bogus conspiracy theory on Wednesday to students at Centner Academy, a private school in Miami, warning them that they should not hug parents who had been vaccinated against the coronavirus for more than five seconds because they might be exposed to harmful vaccine shedding.
"Hola Mami," one student wrote in an email to her parents from school, saying that the teacher was "telling us to stay away from you guys."
Nearly a week before, the school had threatened teachers' employment if they got a coronavirus vaccine before the end of the school year.
Alarmed parents frantically texted one another on WhatsApp, trying to find a way to pull their children out at the end of the term.
Inside Centner Academy, however, "hundreds of queries from all over the world" came in for teaching positions, according to the administration. More came from people who wanted to enroll their children at the school, where tuition runs up to $30,000 a year.
The small school in Miami's trendy Design District became a national beacon for anti-vaccination activists practically overnight last week, just as public health officials in the United States wrestled with how to overcome vaccine skepticism.
The policy barring teachers from contact with students after getting the vaccine brought a flurry of television news crews who parked outside the school for days, prompting teachers to keep children indoors for physical education and recess. Leila Centner, the school's co-founder, who says she is not against fully tested vaccines, wrote on Instagram that journalists are "trying to destroy my reputation because I went against their narrative."
Devoted supporters cheered her on.
"We won't let them take you down!" one of them wrote on Instagram. "We stand strong with you! You're an angel trying to save our kids and teachers."
Ms. Centner, an avid social media user who has long used her accounts to document her luxurious lifestyle, took effective control of the school last year, in the midst of the pandemic. She told the community that the school, with prekindergarten through eighth grades, would focus on "happiness" and espouse "medical freedom."
But interviews with 21 current and former parents and teachers, as well as a review of social media posts and of school documents, emails, text messages and videos, show how the wealthy and well-connected Ms. Centner brought her anti-vaccination and anti-masking views into the school's day-to-day life, turning what had been a tightknit community into one bitterly split between those who support her views on vaccinations and those who do not.
"Every afternoon I have to explain things to my child when she comes home and says, 'How come the school says what you're saying is not right?'" said Iris Acosta-Zobel, referring to the importance she gives at home to masking and vaccinations. She pulled her daughter out of the school on Friday.
David J. Centner, a former electronic highway tolling entrepreneur who co-founded the school in its current iteration with his wife, said in written responses to questions that the school was listening to families. "We have met with more than 70 parents, and we are pleased that so many families continue to support our mission and trust us with their children," he said.
Sara Dagan, who has four children at the school, said she was not troubled by the controversy. "Everything was blown out of proportion," she said. "I'm comfortable with holding off on the vaccine. My main concern is the happiness of the kids."
Most people interviewed for this article requested anonymity to protect their children or their employment. Some former parents and teachers said they feared retaliation if they spoke publicly. Others declined to comment because the school had made them sign nondisclosure agreements.
The anti-vaccination policy requires recently vaccinated teachers to maintain a distance from students — Ms. Centner told teachers not to hug the children, for example. It caused such a frenzy that a reporter asked about it during a White House briefing. (The school received $804,375 from the federal Paycheck Protection Program during the pandemic.) Jen Psaki, the press secretary, noted that public health guidelines strongly encourage vaccines against the coronavirus and are meant to keep people safe.
Centner Academy opened in its current form last year, after the Centners, who previously owned just the preschool, took over the Metropolitan International School, an established private school that focused on foreign languages and served an international clientele. Its owner retired and said the school would merge with the preschool owned by the Centners, who have donated heavily in recent years to the Republican Party and former President Donald J. Trump.
By the time the pandemic hit, the school's old identity and leaders were gone, and the Centners were at the helm.
Things began to change, parents said. Surveillance cameras were installed to record both video and audio, for what Mr. Centner said were security and insurance purposes. Ms. Centner once remarked that children should be kept away from windows, for fear of radiation from 5G cell towers, another baseless conspiracy theory. (The windows at the preschool now have electromagnetic frequency "shielding blockers," Mr. Centner said in response to a question about the school's 5G concerns.) The school opposed feeding children sugar and gluten, and required that students have different shoes for indoors and outdoors. Some parents said they thought such ideas odd but inoffensive — unlike what began to happen with the school's response to the coronavirus.
The school opened for in-person instruction in September and initially pledged to follow Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines, as well as a local mask mandate. But teachers said they found no attempt at social distancing during orientation in August, and Ms. Centner discouraged mask use. Teachers had to sign waivers acknowledging that there was a health risk associated with returning to work in person.
Parents were offered forms to exempt their children from any need to wear masks, similar to a school policy that also exempts children from vaccines of all kinds if their parents wish.
Ms. Centner operated a WhatsApp group called "Knowledge Is Key" (joining was optional, Mr. Centner said) on which she shared anti-vaccination material with teachers. When a parent asked if the school would mandate the flu vaccine, Ms. Centner laid out her skepticism about vaccines in a letter to parents. She cited a nonprofit organization started by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., an anti-vaccination crusader.
"As many of you may have learned by now, we are not blind followers, and we try not to make fear-based decisions," she wrote.
In November, two grade levels in the preschool added two days of online-only instruction to their long Thanksgiving break after several Covid-19 cases were confirmed.
Once Florida began administering coronavirus vaccines, Ms. Centner invited members of the school community to a virtual talk with an anti-vaccination pediatrician to discuss potential dangers of the vaccines. Mr. Kennedy visited the school and met with teachers. So did another anti-vaccination activist, who also met with students.
Then came the announcement that vaccinated teachers would have to stay away from students, or would not be allowed to return for now if they get the vaccine over the summer. "If you want to get it, this is not going to be the right school for you," Ms. Centner told teachers about the vaccine on a virtual call.
Nobody spoke up with concerns, said Jimena Hills, a faculty member who supports Ms. Centner and said she had no problem with the school's policies on vaccinations and thought they should not have been leaked to the news media. "All of this controversy could have really been avoided," she said.
School officials insisted that they were not discouraging students from coming close to their vaccinated parents.
Ms. Centner told parents during a meeting on Thursday that the teacher mentioned by the fifth-grade student in her email had been speaking out of turn; the teacher has since apologized and retracted her statement, she said. Still, the meeting was sometimes tense, several parents said. One father, they said, got in the face of a faculty member who had spoken out on behalf of the school and the teacher vaccination policy.
The school continued to defend the policy on Friday. "At our school, we have asked our teachers to take a prudent precautionary pause and get through these remaining weeks until the claims being made are further researched," Mr. Centner said. "We encourage teachers to consult their health care providers as they make these medical decisions."
The local state senator, Jason W.B. Pizzo, a Democrat, said he was told that neither the Department of Education nor the Department of Health had jurisdiction over the school's vaccination policies. (Centner Academy had one student receiving a public voucher this school year.)
On Thursday, Mr. Pizzo introduced a legislative amendment that he hoped would prevent schools and businesses from prohibiting people from getting vaccinated, calling such a policy "quackery."
He had some bipartisan support. "Let's show that the Senate is not insane," said State Senator Jeff Brandes of St. Petersburg, a Republican.
It failed on a tied vote.
Back in Miami, Ms. Centner appeared unbothered. On Friday, she posted on Instagram that she would speak next month at a "freedom-fighting festival" with several conservative political luminaries, including Michael T. Flynn and Roger J. Stone Jr. Its theme: "Reopen America."
Mike, I have reached my limit with these anti-vaxxers. I no longer care if they live or die. In reality, the world would be a better place without them.
Floriduh. Its like all the stupid is being magically pulled there.
Quote from: MU82 on May 04, 2021, 02:43:43 PM
What the eff is wrong with people?
And now ... here is the single most effed-up vaccine-related thing I have read, and that's really saying something given all the effed up sh!t out there ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/02/us/miami-centner-academy-coronavirus-vaccine.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20210504&instance_id=30199&nl=updates-from-the-newsroom®i_id=108420427&segment_id=57198&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
It is one thing to be a anti-vaxxer. I mean the vaccine can cause negative outcomes for a super small segment of society, albeit you are still better rolling the dice with the vaccine than getting COVID and passing it onto others.
But it is quite another thing to spread ridiculous rumors about "vaccine shedding" and scaring people who are vaccine hesitant from getting vaccines because the vaccine they got will impact others.
Quote from: MU82 on May 04, 2021, 02:43:43 PM
What the eff is wrong with people?
And now ... here is the single most effed-up vaccine-related thing I have read, and that's really saying something given all the effed up sh!t out there ...
Did not read the entire article, so it may have addressed this, but there is a subset of society out there that believes the vaccine is designed to eliminate a huge percentage of the population within two years. It is a huge conspiracy to save resources for those "in the know" and the world will go on without the lemmings that got that vaccine. It is absolutely astonishing that people can buy into this crap. Crazysauce times ten.
Quote from: SERocks on May 04, 2021, 04:02:42 PM
Did not read the entire article, so it may have addressed this, but there is a subset of society out there that believes the vaccine is designed to eliminate a huge percentage of the population within two years. It is a huge conspiracy to save resources for those "in the know" and the world will go on without the lemmings that got that vaccine. It is absolutely astonishing that people can buy into this crap. Crazysauce times ten.
Anyone can make up a conspiracy. Heck I can even do it and make it sound logical.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 04, 2021, 03:18:09 PM
Floriduh. Its like all the stupid is being magically pulled there.
The gravity in Texas is pretty strong, too. The Jerry Springer Show never would have succeeded without Florida and Texas.
Quote from: Jockey on May 04, 2021, 02:56:41 PM
Mike, I have reached my limit with these anti-vaxxers. I no longer care if they live or die. In reality, the world would be a better place without them.
Very nice.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22409938/covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-moderna-pfizer-johnson-astrazeneca-uk
Interesting comparisons on the differences between UK and US in vaccine enthusiasm. So why is there more enthusiasm in the UK?
1. UK restrained reaction to bad news about rare side effects.
2. More convenient to get vaccinated in UK
3. The "getting as many first shots into arms as possible" approach.
4. The right wing press is more pro-vaccine in the UK than it is here. (Both owned by Murdoch.)
Quote from: SERocks on May 04, 2021, 04:02:42 PM
Did not read the entire article, so it may have addressed this, but there is a subset of society out there that believes the vaccine is designed to eliminate a huge percentage of the population within two years. It is a huge conspiracy to save resources for those "in the know" and the world will go on without the lemmings that got that vaccine. It is absolutely astonishing that people can buy into this crap. Crazysauce times ten.
What shocks me is that they believe this, and somehow believe that they're in the know. As if some hog from the sticks has the inside secret information.
Also, all of their heroes have been vaxxed, including former President Trump. Cult of stupidity.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 05, 2021, 12:54:56 PM
What shocks me is that they believe this....
Reminds me of the Iraqi Dinar revaluation scam, or the Q crapola. I mean seriously. How can anyone not read that stuff and say, hey, wait a minute here....something does not seem right. Kinda like the news media's defense in the Dominion cases...."no rational person would believe what we said."
I think all of the above examples are indicative of something missing in the lives of the believers. I am not sure what exactly it is, or if there is brain damage or some kind of psychosis. I am not smart enough to figure that all out...but dang, why do people flock to this nonsense time and again?
Quote from: SERocks on May 05, 2021, 01:01:53 PM
Reminds me of the Iraqi Dinar revaluation scam, or the Q crapola. I mean seriously. How can anyone not read that stuff and say, hey, wait a minute here....something does not seem right. Kinda like the news media's defense in the Dominion cases...."no rational person would believe what we said."
I think all of the above examples are indicative of something missing in the lives of the believers. I am not sure what exactly it is, or if there is brain damage or some kind of psychosis. I am not smart enough to figure that all out...but dang, why do people flock to this nonsense time and again?
IMO, they want to feel like they're smart. For once in their lives.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 05, 2021, 12:43:10 PM
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22409938/covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-moderna-pfizer-johnson-astrazeneca-uk
Interesting comparisons on the differences between UK and US in vaccine enthusiasm. So why is there more enthusiasm in the UK?
1. UK restrained reaction to bad news about rare side effects.
2. More convenient to get vaccinated in UK
3. The "getting as many first shots into arms as possible" approach.
4. The right wing press is more pro-vaccine in the UK than it is here. (Both owned by Murdoch.)
Boris Johnson received his vaccination and urged everyone to get one. The US has Bunker Boy and Fox News.
Pretty simple.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 05, 2021, 08:43:16 AM
Very nice.
Thank you. You apparently are fine with them taking no responsibility for their own safety or the safety of anyone that they are in contact with.
I still remember when it was convenient for those people to say that their party was the party of personal responsibility as a way to attack people who were less fortunate.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 05, 2021, 12:54:56 PM
What shocks me is that they believe this, and somehow believe that they're in the know. As if some hog from the sticks has the inside secret information.
Also, all of their heroes have been vaxxed, including former President Trump. Cult of stupidity.
What shocks me - is that you are shocked by any of this. ;)
If only JFK Jr would emerge from hiding with a big dose of Moderna sticking out of his arm. Alas.
Fauci "agnostic" about the Trips Waiver.
What a douche
Also, video going around of Biden during the campaign re: patents is damning.
Completely irresponsible.
https://twitter.com/tuckwatch/status/1390096491860172804?s=21
(https://images2.imgbox.com/f5/a0/DhPlxSCl_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/DhPlxSCl)
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 04, 2021, 09:12:40 AM
Cur him some slack, its hard work showing exactly how painfully stupid you are day after day, and boy is he working hard.
The opposite. He's a genius laughing all the way to the bank spreading lies and getting ratings from rubes. I doubt he believes what he say, he's playing a role.
I see and hear more about Fox from you guys and the crazed lefties on Twatter than anywhere else.
These show draw 2-3m viewers per night. 1% of the country watches fox and maybe .8% watches mslsd.
Who cares what these "entertainers" say.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 05, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I see and hear more about Fox from you guys and the crazed lefties on Twatter than anywhere else.
These show draw 2-3m viewers per night. 1% of the country watches fox and maybe .8% watches mslsd.
Who cares what these "entertainers" say.
I care when media companies spread misinformation for political purposes.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 05, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I see and hear more about Fox from you guys and the crazed lefties on Twatter than anywhere else.
Oh man, Twatter - like Twitter w/ an A! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Do you call it that bc only twats are on there?!?! Hahahahahahaha
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 05, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I see and hear more about Fox from you guys and the crazed lefties on Twatter than anywhere else.
These show draw 2-3m viewers per night. 1% of the country watches fox and maybe .8% watches mslsd.
Who cares what these "entertainers" say.
Fox is merely one voice, albeit the loudest, in the self-reinforcing echo chamber of lies. But I guess if only 1% of the country is actually watching it an any given time, spewing lies to create vaccine hesitancy, dragging out this pandemic, and creating greater and greater divides in this country is perfectly fine.
Your logic that this is fine because of the number of viewers is just about as good as your take that we can't write new guns laws because criminals will ignore them.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 05, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I see and hear more about Fox from you guys and the crazed lefties on Twatter than anywhere else.
These show draw 2-3m viewers per night. 1% of the country watches fox and maybe .8% watches mslsd.
Who cares what these "entertainers" say.
Yeah same. When people on the internet tell me I watch too much CNN and MSNBC it's pretty funny. Cable news is cancer.
I pay for the NYT, Bloomberg, and WSJ subscriptions. I have a pretty well rounded view of current events, mostly market news that I care about, from actual journalists. Just gotta skip the Opinion pieces, I come to MUScoop for that.
Quote from: MU11W on May 06, 2021, 07:25:43 AM
Oh man, Twatter - like Twitter w/ an A! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Do you call it that bc only twats are on there?!?! Hahahahahahaha
Da fuq are you?
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 06, 2021, 07:34:27 AM
Fox is merely one voice, albeit the loudest, in the self-reinforcing echo chamber of lies. But I guess if only 1% of the country is actually watching it an any given time, spewing lies to create vaccine hesitancy, dragging out this pandemic, and creating greater and greater divides in this country is perfectly fine.
Your logic that this is fine because of the number of viewers is just about as good as your take that we can't write new guns laws because criminals will ignore them.
Your frothing at the mouth says I'm on to something. Try a Fresca.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 05, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I see and hear more about Fox from you guys and the crazed lefties on Twatter than anywhere else.
These show draw 2-3m viewers per night. 1% of the country watches fox and maybe .8% watches mslsd.
Who cares what these "entertainers" say.
This is true, but those who watch them are almost guaranteed to vote and be in contact with their legislators.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on May 06, 2021, 11:59:53 AM
This is true, but those who watch them are almost guaranteed to vote and be in contact with their legislators.
And they overwhelmingly supported the attempted overthrow of the gov't.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 06, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
Your frothing at the mouth says I'm on to something. Try a Fresca.
"The fact that you disagree proves I'm right!" More brilliance.
Yes, I'm on to the fact that you make shi!tbrained arguments and are perfectly fine with influencers spewing lies about the vaccine, stretching out the pandemic, and further dividing the country.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on May 06, 2021, 11:59:53 AM
This is true, but those who watch them are almost guaranteed to vote and be in contact with their legislators.
Add in that it isn't just the people who tune into the 'opinion programming'. Fox has their "news" programs air portions of the opinion programming to ask their guests to react to them therefore a) allowing the falsehoods to reach a broader audience, and b) giving the falsehoods an air of credibility.
Quote from: Jockey on May 06, 2021, 12:15:07 PM
And they overwhelmingly supported the attempted overthrow of the gov't.
^^^.8%er.
Quote from: Jockey on May 06, 2021, 03:35:56 PM
No lo comprende.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 05, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I see and hear more about Fox from you guys and the crazed lefties on Twatter than anywhere else.
These show draw 2-3m viewers per night. 1% of the country watches fox and maybe .8% watches mslsd.
Who cares what these "entertainers" say.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 06, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
^^^.8%er.
Big lie. Sedition. Treason. Embrace them or end up like Liz Cheney.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 06, 2021, 11:40:23 AM
Da fuq are you?
Just a big fan of yours!!! Love all of your quips, they're so witty!
Still laughing about Twatter!!
Quote from: tower912 on May 06, 2021, 03:59:29 PM
Big lie. Sedition. Treason. Embrace them or end up like Liz Cheney.
Good to see I am not the only one to throw around the 'T' word.
Quote from: tower912 on May 06, 2021, 03:59:29 PM
Embrace them or end up like Liz Cheney.
An entire party trying to cancel one of their own -- one who happens to be a lifelong, conservative Republican who overwhelmingly voted with Trump on legislation.
But she spoke the truth about the election, and she was outraged about 1/6/21 ... so gotta cancel her!
She wrote an outstanding op-ed for today's Washington Post BTW.
Fascinating vaccine talk guys ::)
Typical Scoop thread, huh?
Jockey and MU82. The usual suspects...
From The Athletic:
Golden State Warriors forward Damion Lee said he tested positive for COVID-19 two weeks ago despite receiving the COVID-19 vaccination in March.
"Essentially, this was just a rare breakthrough case," Lee said prior to the Warriors' Thursday night game against the Oklahoma City Thunder. "After doing the research, there's been about 6,000 people who have tested positive with a breakthrough case out of the over 80 million people who have been fully vaccinated."
Lee went on to describe the symptoms he experienced, including headache, chills, sneezing, congestion, soreness, body aches, and what he described as "brain fog" — where he'd lost track of what he was talking about five minutes into a conversation. "It felt like I was hit by a car, hit by two cars at once," he added.
The 28-year-old hasn't played a game since April 19. In 57 games this season, Lee averaged 6.5 points, 3.2 rebounds and 1.3 assists — shooting 46.7 percent from the field.
"Right now there's no timeline in the immediate future for me coming back and playing," Lee said. "Still have protocols and hurdles for me to clear from the medical side. After that, it's a matter of getting back into basketball shape."
Quote from: MU82 on May 07, 2021, 08:32:04 AM
From The Athletic:
Golden State Warriors forward Damion Lee said he tested positive for COVID-19 two weeks ago despite receiving the COVID-19 vaccination in March.
"Essentially, this was just a rare breakthrough case," Lee said prior to the Warriors' Thursday night game against the Oklahoma City Thunder. "After doing the research, there's been about 6,000 people who have tested positive with a breakthrough case out of the over 80 million people who have been fully vaccinated."
I mean, J&J is ~86% effective and the two-shot versions are ~93% effective, someone still getting COVID doesn't seem like "breakthrough" territory.
Quote from: TSmith34 on May 06, 2021, 07:34:27 AM
Fox is merely one voice, albeit the loudest, in the self-reinforcing echo chamber of lies. But I guess if only 1% of the country is actually watching it an any given time, spewing lies to create vaccine hesitancy, dragging out this pandemic, and creating greater and greater divides in this country is perfectly fine.
Your logic that this is fine because of the number of viewers is just about as good as your take that we can't write new guns laws because criminals will ignore them.
if the vaccine works, which i believe it does, why does our demented potus in name only, his "doctor" wifey and so many more in power still wear a mask outside and in some instances inside? they show him walking by himself thru arlington nat'l with not a person in sight and he's got a mask on? he gets in front of the people so very few times and mumbles from his teleprompter, oatmeal dripping of his chin, saying it's "patriotic" to wear a mask? that's not exactly pumping confidence into anyone who has their concerns about the mask, rush out to get the vaccine. the numbers of people NOT getting the vaccine do not fit any particular demographic as your pitiful sources would have you believe.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 08, 2021, 07:01:39 AM
if the vaccine works, which i believe it does, why does our demented potus in name only, his "doctor" wifey and so many more in power still wear a mask outside and in some instances inside? they show him walking by himself thru arlington nat'l with not a person in sight and he's got a mask on? he gets in front of the people so very few times and mumbles from his teleprompter, oatmeal dripping of his chin, saying it's "patriotic" to wear a mask? that's not exactly pumping confidence into anyone who has their concerns about the mask, rush out to get the vaccine. the numbers of people NOT getting the vaccine do not fit any particular demographic as your pitiful sources would have you believe.
Do you have a source for this?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 08, 2021, 07:01:39 AM
our demented potus in name only
Your deposed Mad King appreciates your cultish fealty in continuing to spread the biggest of his 30,000+ lies. And he also appreciates your BDS.
New Gallup poll re "vaccine passports":
Fifty-seven percent of respondents said they would approve of vaccine passports as a requirement for airplane travel while 55% favored passports before someone could attend events with large crowds such as sporting events and concerts. There was less support for requiring vaccination passports for going to work (45%), staying at a hotel (44%) and dining at a restaurant indoors (40%).
https://news.gallup.com/poll/349580/support-vaccination-proof-varies-activity.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 08, 2021, 07:01:39 AM
if the vaccine works, which i believe it does, why does our demented potus in name only, his "doctor" wifey and so many more in power still wear a mask outside and in some instances inside? they show him walking by himself thru arlington nat'l with not a person in sight and he's got a mask on? he gets in front of the people so very few times and mumbles from his teleprompter, oatmeal dripping of his chin, saying it's "patriotic" to wear a mask? that's not exactly pumping confidence into anyone who has their concerns about the mask, rush out to get the vaccine. the numbers of people NOT getting the vaccine do not fit any particular demographic as your pitiful sources would have you believe.
How about fully vaccinated Kamala and Doug kissing through their masks. Is it possible to be more ridiculous than that?
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on May 08, 2021, 09:58:13 AM
How about fully vaccinated Kamala and Doug kissing through their masks. Is it possible to be more ridiculous than that?
Easy - how about knowing the dangers, downplaying them, not wearing a mask, hiding the fact you got vaccinated, and sowing doubt in the professionals - therefore directly and indirectly encouraging millions of people to follow your lead causing tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths?
Now THAT is ridiculous. But let's focus on those being overly cautious in the midst of a global pandemic (equally ridiculous).
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 08, 2021, 07:01:39 AM
if the vaccine works, which i believe it does, why does our demented potus in name only, his "doctor" wifey and so many more in power still wear a mask outside and in some instances inside? they show him walking by himself thru arlington nat'l with not a person in sight and he's got a mask on? he gets in front of the people so very few times and mumbles from his teleprompter, oatmeal dripping of his chin, saying it's "patriotic" to wear a mask? that's not exactly pumping confidence into anyone who has their concerns about the mask, rush out to get the vaccine. the numbers of people NOT getting the vaccine do not fit any particular demographic as your pitiful sources would have you believe.
He is setting a positive example that it okay to still wear masks for people who have not been vaccinated yet.
This isn't hard.
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 08, 2021, 08:24:25 AM
Do you have a source for this?
Here's something I found recent:
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-donald-trump-alabama-georgia-savannah-941ef2bf9b60ee39d6b9fd5e2ce861f7
Why do people care so much if others choose to wear a mask? If Biden wants to wear one outside, let him. Does it impact your life in any way?
I will wear a mask outside in crowds for the foreseeable future. I am required to wear a mask whenever I am on duty and outside the station. It isn't a burden.
As a very smart man recently said, and I paraphrase, wearing a mask after covid 19 vaccination, is like a man wearing a condom after a vasectomy, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 08, 2021, 06:19:46 PM
As a very smart man recently said, and I paraphrase, wearing a mask after covid 19 vaccination, is like a man wearing a condom after a vasectomy, aina?
Both are good ways to stay disease free when mingling with strangers.
Quote from: tower912 on May 08, 2021, 06:24:31 PM
Both are good ways to stay disease free when mingling with strangers.
Yep. People just don't get that.
As well as being potentially contagious for a while after both. So, yeah, that metaphor isn't that far off.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 08, 2021, 12:30:08 PM
Why do people care so much if others choose to wear a mask? If Biden wants to wear one outside, let him. Does it impact your life in any way?
Not to be overly argumentative, but haven't you been pretty insistent on messaging being wrong in efforts to get people vaccinated, need more carrots and less of the stick. If the fully vaccinated President is still wearing a mask alone outdoors, that's gonna contribute far more to "what's the point of the vaccine" than "oh he's being respectful I should be too"
I feel like the biggest need in compliance during the final stretch is hope, and highly visible and influential people acting the exact same way as they would have in mid-2020, during a largely successful and widespread vaccination push, is anything but
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 08, 2021, 10:55:20 AM
He is setting a positive example that it okay to still wear masks for people who have not been vaccinated yet.
This isn't hard.
yes it is...as wags said, and may i add, people who are leery of the vaccine's efficacy will rationalize their way out of getting the vaccine. seeing potus out and about in obviously safe places will reinforce the vaccine is ok even though i don't believe he even knows when he's wearing it or not. hell, he had a panic attack at the podium when he couldn't find the damn thing(mask). it was right in his pocket or folded up in his papers or something. good thing dr j was there to calm him down with a big hug and some hot cocoa
I look at what is going on in India and South America and wonder if those poor souls would refuse the vaccine for political reasons. America has an opportunity for greatness. And some are willfully choosing failure.
The path to normalcy is right in front of us. Some are choosing stupidity.
I'm fully vaccinated and wore a mask to an outdoor event today that a lot of people were at. I fail to see the big deal in wearing masks and if it protects one person, it's worth it. If it didn't protect anyone, that's ok too as it wasn't really a big deal for me to do.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 08, 2021, 08:40:40 PM
yes it is...as wags said, and may i add, people who are leery of the vaccine's efficacy will rationalize their way out of getting the vaccine. seeing potus out and about in obviously safe places will reinforce the vaccine is ok even though i don't believe he even knows when he's wearing it or not. hell, he had a panic attack at the podium when he couldn't find the damn thing(mask). it was right in his pocket or folded up in his papers or something. good thing dr j was there to calm him down with a big hug and some hot cocoa
You making fun of someone else's cognitive abilities is probably the most ironic thing ever posted here.
Quote from: Marquette Fan on May 08, 2021, 09:43:32 PM
I'm fully vaccinated and wore a mask to an outdoor event today that a lot of people were at. I fail to see the big deal in wearing masks and if it protects one person, it's worth it. If it didn't protect anyone, that's ok too as it wasn't really a big deal for me to do.
I'm also fully vaccinated. And while I fully support your choice to mask up outdoors I won't be joining you. For me, it's uncomfortable and has given me infections on multiple occasions. I had dinner with a friend at The Moorings in Naples tonight - a community of the most vulnerable (my friend is 90, average age over 80). The community (and the staff) is fully vaccinated and have been maskless for nearly a month. No infections.
A friend of mine's MIL headed back to Canada today. She is fully vaccinated and has the proof. She has to have a negative test in the USA within 72 hours of entering Canada. Once she sets foot in Canada she takes another test. Then she must quarantine at home for 14 days - 8 days into quarantine they come to her home and administer another test. This is insanity IMHO.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 08, 2021, 10:37:27 PM
I'm also fully vaccinated. And while I fully support your choice to mask up outdoors I won't be joining you. For me, it's uncomfortable and has given me infections on multiple occasions. I had dinner with a friend at The Moorings in Naples tonight - a community of the most vulnerable (my friend is 90, average age over 80). The community (and the staff) is fully vaccinated and have been maskless for nearly a month. No infections.
A friend of mine's MIL headed back to Canada today. She is fully vaccinated and has the proof. She has to have a negative test in the USA within 72 hours of entering Canada. Once she sets foot in Canada she takes another test. Then she must quarantine at home for 14 days - 8 days into quarantine they come to her home and administer another test. This is insanity IMHO.
Millions of people dead around the world and this very minor inconvenience is insanity?
How about people on your team discouraging people from getting vaccinated OR wearing a mask. THAT is insanity!
The purpose of the actions in Canada is to save lives. The purpose of your side is to kill.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 08, 2021, 10:37:27 PM
I'm also fully vaccinated. And while I fully support your choice to mask up outdoors I won't be joining you. For me, it's uncomfortable and has given me infections on multiple occasions. I had dinner with a friend at The Moorings in Naples tonight - a community of the most vulnerable (my friend is 90, average age over 80). The community (and the staff) is fully vaccinated and have been maskless for nearly a month. No infections.
A friend of mine's MIL headed back to Canada today. She is fully vaccinated and has the proof. She has to have a negative test in the USA within 72 hours of entering Canada. Once she sets foot in Canada she takes another test. Then she must quarantine at home for 14 days - 8 days into quarantine they come to her home and administer another test. This is insanity IMHO.
Wearing a mask has given you infections?
Quote from: Jockey on May 08, 2021, 11:49:35 PM
Millions of people dead around the world and this very minor inconvenience is insanity?
How about people on your team discouraging people from getting vaccinated OR wearing a mask. THAT is insanity!
The purpose of the actions in Canada is to save lives. The purpose of your side is to kill.
He's not talking about masking. He's talking about 2 negative tests in 72 hours while fully vaccinated, and still needing to quarantine for 2 weeks and submit to yet another test. Nothing about that is "minor"
I've been dutifully wearing masks as long it's been recommended but people that keep saying it's NBD are disingenuous to me. Walking in a store? Fine. But trying to work out? Flying on a plane or riding a train for hours? Being outside in warm temps where you perspire under your mask? All of those suck, and it's not some absurd selfish defiance to admit so.
The whole discussion is that the totally fair question of "when will masks end for the fully vaccinated" can't be met with a logical answer or discussion without insults being thrown or political BS.
History aside, nothing Lenny said in that message was combative or political but we had to run right back to MAGA and murderous intent just cause he disagreed with you. It's f-ing exhausting
Solid advice, hey?
Things are moving back to normal and My guess is the next month will be the most frustrating in that regard.
I mean Lenny the situation you describe is what we are trying to do everywhere (high community vaccinations/low spread). So yeah of course it has been working and of course you don't need to wear a mask in that environment.
My state is up to 70% eligible with first shot better than everywhere in the US and most of the world. Spread and hospitalizations are crashing. Most restrictions are ending very soon. But I guess people have to fight and complain about something.
Get vaccinated and this ends.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 09, 2021, 07:46:34 AM
Yes
You aren't in the medical or scientific fields are you?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 09, 2021, 07:46:34 AM
Yes
Can you explain this? What type of infections? The only thing I can think of is skin irritation that gets infected?
Before and after covid I wear masks for hours every day. Never had any infections from wearing them.
Quote from: JWags85 on May 09, 2021, 12:46:07 AM
He's not talking about masking. He's talking about 2 negative tests in 72 hours while fully vaccinated, and still needing to quarantine for 2 weeks and submit to yet another test. Nothing about that is "minor"
About 4 weeks ago, with one shot in my arm at the time, I subjected myself to the 72 hr. pre-test requirement at my own expense to facilitate our recent trip to Maui. When I was there, I basically acquiesced to what I regarded as overly conservative masking requirements, especially outdoors, because I was a 'guest' although I refused to wear one at the beach where I think one was still technically required. I'd speculate that most tourists played it about like I did.
Upon returning to the mainland, I got my second dose and traveled cross country back to Wisconsin. I still carry a mask in my pocket at all times and gladly put it on when entering a big box retailer, for example. But my days of subjecting myself to intrusive government oversight are over unless something were to dramatically change in the trajectory of the disease and I spend my time and dollars with that as a material factor in my decisioning process. I suspect that's where many Americans are right now.
Quote from: JWags85 on May 08, 2021, 07:30:40 PM
Not to be overly argumentative, but haven't you been pretty insistent on messaging being wrong in efforts to get people vaccinated, need more carrots and less of the stick. If the fully vaccinated President is still wearing a mask alone outdoors, that's gonna contribute far more to "what's the point of the vaccine" than "oh he's being respectful I should be too"
That's actually a pretty good point. It's a fine line at least.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 09:20:03 AM
About 4 weeks ago, with one shot in my arm at the time, I subjected myself to the 72 hr. pre-test requirement at my own expense to facilitate our recent trip to Maui. When I was there, I basically acquiesced to what I regarded as overly conservative masking requirements, especially outdoors, because I was a 'guest' although I refused to wear one at the beach where I think one was still technically required. I'd speculate that most tourists played it about like I did.
Upon returning to the mainland, I got my second dose and traveled cross country back to Wisconsin. I still carry a mask in my pocket at all times and gladly put it on when entering a big box retailer, for example. But my days of subjecting myself to intrusive government oversight are over unless something were to dramatically change in the trajectory of the disease and I spend my time and dollars with that as a material factor in my decisioning process. I suspect that's where many Americans are right now.
And this is why we are going to have to reach the point where we just have to rip off the band-aid. People's tolerance for putting up with restrictions, especially when they are fully vaccinated, is going to wear thin.
For instance, remember all the hand wringing when the Texas Rangers allowed full crowds at their games? Well....
https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/mlb/texas-rangers/article251216364.html
I very much don't want to go down this path too far here Sultan, but I have a firm belief than many in the political class enjoy their power more than they should. I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 09:44:31 AM
I very much don't want to go down this path too far here Sultan, but I have a firm belief than many in the political class enjoy their power more than they should. I'll leave it at that.
Nah. I think the fear of making a premature mistake that will cause cases and deaths to spike is the biggest driver. I don't understand what political power is gained by preventing people doing what they used to do. Every governor knows that the political backlash from keeping restrictions in place too long is going to end their career.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 09:20:03 AM
About 4 weeks ago, with one shot in my arm at the time, I subjected myself to the 72 hr. pre-test requirement at my own expense to facilitate our recent trip to Maui. When I was there, I basically acquiesced to what I regarded as overly conservative masking requirements, especially outdoors, because I was a 'guest' although I refused to wear one at the beach where I think one was still technically required. I'd speculate that most tourists played it about like I did.
Upon returning to the mainland, I got my second dose and traveled cross country back to Wisconsin. I still carry a mask in my pocket at all times and gladly put it on when entering a big box retailer, for example. But my days of subjecting myself to intrusive government oversight are over unless something were to dramatically change in the trajectory of the disease and I spend my time and dollars with that as a material factor in my decisioning process. I suspect that's where many Americans are right now.
I'd love to hear where this line is for different folks.
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 09, 2021, 09:50:00 AM
I'd love to hear where this line is for different folks.
We may find out in the 2022 elections, eh?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 09, 2021, 09:49:18 AM
Nah. I think the fear of making a premature mistake that will cause cases and deaths to spike is the biggest driver. I don't understand what political power is gained by preventing people doing what they used to do. Every governor knows that the political backlash from keeping restrictions in place too long is going to end their career.
either you are a very naive person or lying.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 09, 2021, 09:49:18 AM
Nah. I think the fear of making a premature mistake that will cause cases and deaths to spike is the biggest driver. I don't understand what political power is gained by preventing people doing what they used to do. Every governor knows that the political backlash from keeping restrictions in place too long is going to end their career.
Perhaps. I guess you have more faith in politicians than I do.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 09, 2021, 09:49:18 AM
Nah. I think the fear of making a premature mistake that will cause cases and deaths to spike is the biggest driver. I don't understand what political power is gained by preventing people doing what they used to do. Every governor knows that the political backlash from keeping restrictions in place too long is going to end their career.
Nah, power and control are the drivers, hey?
Quote from: JWags85 on May 09, 2021, 12:46:07 AM
He's not talking about masking. He's talking about 2 negative tests in 72 hours while fully vaccinated, and still needing to quarantine for 2 weeks and submit to yet another test. Nothing about that is "minor"
I've been dutifully wearing masks as long it's been recommended but people that keep saying it's NBD are disingenuous to me. Walking in a store? Fine. But trying to work out? Flying on a plane or riding a train for hours? Being outside in warm temps where you perspire under your mask? All of those suck, and it's not some absurd selfish defiance to admit so.
The whole discussion is that the totally fair question of "when will masks end for the fully vaccinated" can't be met with a logical answer or discussion without insults being thrown or political BS.
History aside, nothing Lenny said in that message was combative or political but we had to run right back to MAGA and murderous intent just cause he disagreed with you. It's f-ing exhausting
Fabulous post. Nailed everything.
If Fr. Fauci says its over, his 15 minutes of fame are up and he becomes irrelevant, hey?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 09, 2021, 09:55:49 AM
either you are a very naive person or lying.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 09:56:43 AM
Perhaps. I guess you have more faith in politicians than I do.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 09, 2021, 09:57:10 AM
Nah, power and control are the drivers, hey?
I know I've nailed a point when these three disagree with me. Thanks guys!
The vaccine essentially takes hospitalization and death off the table even if you are one of the unlucky 5-28% who could be infected after full vaccination. If I told you to buy a lottery ticket for tonight's drawing since you would have a 72-95% chance of winning the jackpot, everyone would run to the corner gas station with dollars in hand. So, what's the big deal? Those who are still skeptical or fearful can remain that way and don't have to change. But, let the rest of us carry on as we did pre-March 2020. Follow the science because its real, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 09, 2021, 10:10:15 AM
The vaccine essentially takes hospitalization and death off the table even if you are one of the unlucky 5-28% who could be infected after full vaccination. If I told you to buy a lottery ticket for tonight's drawing since you would have a 72-95% chance of winning the jackpot, everyone would run to the corner gas station with dollars in hand. So, what's the big deal? Those who are still skeptical or fearful can remain that way and don't have to change. But, let the rest of us carry on as we did pre-March 2020. Follow the science because its real, hey?
Agreed.
I may have missed it, but has anything definitive come out yet about vaccinated people spreading the disease? Between that and the just making it easier for places to enforce mask requirements, I am not too annoyed about wearing a mask.
However, I think we are getting close to the point of if you aren't willing to get vaccinated, I shouldn't have to inconvenience myself with a mask to protect you.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 09, 2021, 10:01:36 AM
I know I've nailed a point when these three disagree. Thanks guys!
Actually my friend, I think all three of us agree which might just mean you're wrong! Oh, the horror!!! ;D Unfortunately, some of us get unnecessarily belligerent at times. :( Have an awesome day Sultan.
Oh, and thanks for that tidbit on the Rangers opener. I hadn't heard anything since the breathless uproar 6 weeks ago. Somehow I'm not surprised one bit.
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 09, 2021, 10:26:58 AM
However, I think we are getting close to the point of if you aren't willing to get vaccinated, I shouldn't have to inconvenience myself with a mask to protect you.
Agreed - we're *close*. I think that essentially comes Jul 1. Hopefully...
Quote from: rocky_warrior on May 09, 2021, 10:31:48 AM
Agreed - we're *close*. I think that essentially comes Jul 1. Hopefully...
Rocky, by Memorial Day every American 16 and over who want 2 doses can have 2 doses but let's not quarrel over 30 days. And 'stressing the system' over the summer is probably a good thing.
Slightly off topic, I was heartened to hear a Summerfest official when announcing the Fall line-up answer 'Absolutely Not!' when asked a question about any possible Covid cancellation during the presser.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 09, 2021, 10:10:15 AM
The vaccine essentially takes hospitalization and death off the table even if you are one of the unlucky 5-28% who could be infected after full vaccination. If I told you to buy a lottery ticket for tonight's drawing since you would have a 72-95% chance of winning the jackpot, everyone would run to the corner gas station with dollars in hand. So, what's the big deal? Those who are still skeptical or fearful can remain that way and don't have to change. But, let the rest of us carry on as we did pre-March 2020. Follow the science because its real, hey?
So get the vaccine. Anti-vaxxers are just gumming the works.
Quote from: tower912 on May 09, 2021, 11:21:26 AM
So get the vaccine. Anti-vaxxers are just gumming the works.
Yep.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 10:42:27 AM
Rocky, by Memorial Day every American 16 and over who want 2 doses can have 2 doses but let's not quarrel over 30 days. And 'stressing the system' over the summer is probably a good thing.
Slightly off topic, I was heartened to hear a Summerfest official when announcing the Fall line-up answer 'Absolutely Not!' when asked a question about any possible Covid cancellation during the presser.
The summer is going to be fine so things should largely go back to normal. The test is going to be the fall when things go back indoors. That will tell us where we actually are. Because of that colleges and universities are still planning for testing and isolation protocols.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 09:52:06 AM
We may find out in the 2022 elections, eh?
Ya
But I more meant: is the "line" mask regulation? Seatbelts? Drug use? Taxes?
Etc
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 09, 2021, 11:35:02 AM
The summer is going to be fine so things should largely go back to normal. The test is going to be the fall when things go back indoors. That will tell us where we actually are. Because of that colleges and universities are still planning for testing and isolation protocols.
Good point.
Quote from: tower912 on May 09, 2021, 11:21:26 AM
So get the vaccine. Anti-vaxxers are just gumming the works.
Sure, but my point is if they won't, don't hold up the rest of us from living. Aka, fook 'em, hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 09, 2021, 11:39:32 AM
Ya
But I more meant: is the "line" mask regulation? Seatbelts? Drug use? Taxes?
Etc
IDK, but I do think the line is long before 'no dancing at weddings'. Stuff like that become an immediate disqualifier. I think most Americans are very reasonable people and have pretty broad tolerance but can smell horse crap from a great distance.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 11:48:17 AM
IDK, but I do think the line is long before 'no dancing at weddings'. Stuff like that become an immediate disqualifier. I think most Americans are very reasonable people and have pretty broad tolerance but can smell horse crap from a great distance.
I generally agree.
And, as usual, the most extremes are likely to be the loudest, thus implying the extremes are the majority when actually a small minority
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 09, 2021, 11:46:17 AM
Sure, but my point is if they won't, don't hold up the rest of us from living. Aka, fook 'em, hey?
Agreed.
Make them (anti vaxx) restricted from enjoying normal society with passports/verification
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 09, 2021, 11:35:02 AM
The summer is going to be fine so things should largely go back to normal. The test is going to be the fall when things go back indoors. That will tell us where we actually are. Because of that colleges and universities are still planning for testing and isolation protocols.
Things move indoors for the summer in the deep South. That's why their cases really climbed at the end of June last year. The South is behind on vaccinations so far so we should have an early test.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on May 09, 2021, 12:10:25 PM
Things move indoors for the summer in the deep South. That's why their cases really climbed at the end of June last year. The South is behind on vaccinations so far so we should have an early test.
Good point.
Quote from: jsglow on May 09, 2021, 10:42:27 AM
Rocky, by Memorial Day every American 16 and over who want 2 doses can have 2 doses but let's not quarrel over 30 days. And 'stressing the system' over the summer is probably a good thing.
I agree, but would like to se the 18+ number get closer to 70% vaccinated (currently 57%) and also likely quite a few 12+ will be able to have shot(s) by July 1.
I'd like to be "done" with everything today, but just because some people have had shots for months, doesn't mean that we shouldn't allow the full gambit to get in for their shots. It took a 3-4 months to get vaccines available to all the 65+ folks, 18-45 have only had it available for a month or so. It's a process and I'm willing to respect that.
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 09, 2021, 08:19:14 AM
Can you explain this? What type of infections? The only thing I can think of is skin irritation that gets infected?
Before and after covid I wear masks for hours every day. Never had any infections from wearing them.
So since you have never had an infection from wearing a mask it never happens. OK.
Quote from: Jockey on May 08, 2021, 11:49:35 PM
Millions of people dead around the world and this very minor inconvenience is insanity?
How about people on your team discouraging people from getting vaccinated OR wearing a mask. THAT is insanity!
The purpose of the actions in Canada is to save lives. The purpose of your side is to kill.
Totally, unequivocally unhinged.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 09, 2021, 01:26:54 PM
So since you have never had an infection from wearing a mask it never happens. OK.
I didn't read his questions as saying it can't happen, but rather wondering what the infections were.
Can wearing a mask for extended time periods contribute to certain types of infections. Yes. Bacterial, fungal, and yeast infections can be exacerbated by masks. Technically wearing a mask for extended periods could contribute to even things like fungal pneumonia.
But in all those instances, the issue isn't wearing a mask, but poor hygiene and wearing dirty masks.
It's like saying that wearing dirty underwear caused a nasty case of jock-itch, because you wore the same pair of underwear for a month straight.
That's not a reason to not wear underwear, it is a reason to have even just moderate hygiene practices.
Wearing a mask on its own cannot cause infections; but yes, wearing excessively dirty masks can contribute to the development of certain types of infections.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 09, 2021, 01:26:54 PM
So since you have never had an infection from wearing a mask it never happens. OK.
I never said that. I gave my anecdotal experience, just as you did.
Would you mind explaining the infections though?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 09, 2021, 09:49:18 AM
Nah. I think the fear of making a premature mistake that will cause cases and deaths to spike is the biggest driver. I don't understand what political power is gained by preventing people doing what they used to do. Every governor knows that the political backlash from keeping restrictions in place too long is going to end their career.
South Park clearly explained this plan in the gnome-underwear episode.
Phase 1. Make everyone wear masks
Phase 2. ?????????
Phase 3. Profit!
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 09, 2021, 12:07:30 PM
I generally agree.
And, as usual, the most extremes are likely to be the loudest, thus implying the extremes are the majority when actually a small minority
This. We have people here in Florida that they are screaming they are oppressed because everything is locked down. Yet nothing is locked down. Until recently, you had to wear a mask in public buildings. Oh the horror. Bars are open, restaurants are open, stadiums have been allowed to be at full capacity for over 6 months. Sports venues other than the WWE chose to be smarter.
And let's talk about extremes. It's illegal for a business to ask for proof of vaccination here. Yet it is also now legal to run over a protester.
Thankfully, the making it illegal to ask for proof of vaccination will seem to eliminate the god awful cruise industry from Florida, so there is an upside.
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 09, 2021, 01:53:32 PM
I never said that. I gave my anecdotal experience, just as you did.
Would you mind explaining the infections though?
Basic, common yeast infection.
So bad hygiene on my part, I guess.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 09, 2021, 03:12:02 PM
This. We have people here in Florida that they are screaming they are oppressed because everything is locked down. Yet nothing is locked down. Until recently, you had to wear a mask in public buildings. Oh the horror. Bars are open, restaurants are open, stadiums have been allowed to be at full capacity for over 6 months. Sports venues other than the WWE chose to be smarter.
And let's talk about extremes. It's illegal for a business to ask for proof of vaccination here. Yet it is also now legal to run over a protester.
Thankfully, the making it illegal to ask for proof of vaccination will seem to eliminate the god awful cruise industry from Florida, so there is an upside.
Had dinner at The Moorings (a senior community)in Naples last night with a friend. We had to show our vaccination proof to get into the dining room. Are you saying they were breaking the law?
And your "legal to run over a protester" is an absolute joke.
You're right about Florida being open though. Better for our school children and their mental health, better for our economy and better than most of the h
big states vs Covid. I gather that some people think that's a bad thing. Politics.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 09, 2021, 04:25:36 PM
Basic, common yeast infection.
So bad hygiene on my part, I guess.
Thank you.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 09, 2021, 04:25:36 PM
Basic, common yeast infection.
So bad hygiene on my part, I guess.
Rereading my statement above, I realize the wording was a bit harsh.
Some people are more prone to them in general, and moist environments can cause a flare up (e.g. masks). For those individuals, it is important to be extra cautious regarding keeping masks clean.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 09, 2021, 04:36:36 PM
Had dinner at The Moorings (a senior community)in Naples last night with a friend. We had to show our vaccination proof to get into the dining room. Are you saying they were breaking the law?
And your "legal to run over a protester" is an absolute joke.
You're right about Florida being open though. Better for our school children and their mental health, better for our economy and better than most of the h
big states vs Covid. I gather that some people think that's a bad thing. Politics.
Yes, what they did was illegal.
https://www.govtech.com/health/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-banning-vaccine-passports
Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that prohibits businesses and government agencies in the state from asking people for proof — digital passport or otherwise — of a COVID-19 vaccination.
DeSantis on April 2 issued an executive order blocking COVID-19 passports, which he said would create "huge" privacy issues that could result in people handing over medical information to a "big corporation." The law now makes the executive order permanent.
But yeah, great thing Florida is open. Nothing bad happened.
Florida had more new COVID-19 cases just in *schools* over the last 7 days than most states had across their entire population.
Nearly 3,700 this week in K12 cases alone.
Total new cases for all of Florida7 days: 27,125.
Rank in country: #51
(1 is best- 51 is worst)
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 08, 2021, 08:40:40 PM
yes it is...as wags said, and may i add, people who are leery of the vaccine's efficacy will rationalize their way out of getting the vaccine. seeing potus out and about in obviously safe places will reinforce the vaccine is ok even though i don't believe he even knows when he's wearing it or not. hell, he had a panic attack at the podium when he couldn't find the damn thing(mask). it was right in his pocket or folded up in his papers or something. good thing dr j was there to calm him down with a big hug and some hot cocoa
What is it like to live in this fantasy world?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 10, 2021, 06:11:58 AM
What is it like to live in this fantasy world?
It's difficult for rocket to fathom that the First Lady actually would hug the president or share a bed with him -- and that's understandable given that the previous FLOTUS couldn't stand being in the same room as her husband, even repeatedly slapped away his hand when he tried to hold hers.
I see this story making national rounds this morning. Nothing like free beer to entice people..........
Free beer offer results in more vaccinations than all Erie County first-dose clinics last week
Sandra Tan May 8, 2021 Updated May 9, 2021 13
https://buffalonews.com/news/local/free-beer-offer-results-in-more-vaccinations-than-all-erie-county-first-dose-clinics-last/article_34b5d0d2-b011-11eb-92fd-8b7017585dc1.html
Quote from: rocky_warrior on May 09, 2021, 12:56:53 PM
I agree, but would like to se the 18+ number get closer to 70% vaccinated (currently 57%) and also likely quite a few 12+ will be able to have shot(s) by July 1.
I'd like to be "done" with everything today, but just because some people have had shots for months, doesn't mean that we shouldn't allow the full gambit to get in for their shots. It took a 3-4 months to get vaccines available to all the 65+ folks, 18-45 have only had it available for a month or so. It's a process and I'm willing to respect that.
While I generally agree Rocky and would absolutely like the numbers to go up, my hurdle has long been the
opportunity to get vaccinated. 60 days ago we all still necessarily had a hand in protecting the population because vax distribution was quite limited. That said, I have little sympathy for the 'when I get around to it' crowd. So take July 4th for example. If the guidance is 'only small groups because we need to protect the unvaccinated', I'll ignore it. At some point in the very short term, the unvaccinated must become 100% responsible for their own health decisions and consequences. I don't think we disagree.
Pa, dat tyme iz now, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 10, 2021, 08:57:05 AM
Pa, dat tyme iz now, hey?
It sounds like we are at the point of supply outpacing demand. We do need to factor in the timing of the second shot plus 2 weeks. So, we may still be a month away from everyone who wants a vaccine is fully vaccinated.
I think some think they have immunity the second the needle is in their arm.
So I just found out that one of the leading researchers on the rona and the vaccines is a UW doc that has a kid in my kid's class.
He was quoted in a news story saying that the first shot gets your immune system warmed up, but the 2nd shot is what will protect you 1) fully and 2) from the variants. (Paraphrasing)
He's also a big believer in the safety of the Pfizer for 12-16 year olds. His 12 year old is getting his shot this week on the news to help move the needle on getting that age group vaxxed.
The day it is OK'd, my 14 year old will get his first shot.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 10, 2021, 09:59:39 AM
So I just found out that one of the leading researchers on the rona and the vaccines is a UW doc that has a kid in my kid's class.
He was quoted in a news story saying that the first shot gets your immune system warmed up, but the 2nd shot is what will protect you 1) fully and 2) from the variants. (Paraphrasing)
He's also a big believer in the safety of the Pfizer for 12-16 year olds. His 12 year old is getting his shot this week on the news to help move the needle on getting that age group vaxxed.
Thanks for this info. I believe every word of it. If I had a teenage kid, he or she would get the vaccine the day it became available to him or her.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 09, 2021, 09:54:41 PM
Yes, what they did was illegal.
https://www.govtech.com/health/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-banning-vaccine-passports
Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that prohibits businesses and government agencies in the state from asking people for proof — digital passport or otherwise — of a COVID-19 vaccination.
DeSantis on April 2 issued an executive order blocking COVID-19 passports, which he said would create "huge" privacy issues that could result in people handing over medical information to a "big corporation." The law now makes the executive order permanent.
But yeah, great thing Florida is open. Nothing bad happened.
Florida had more new COVID-19 cases just in *schools* over the last 7 days than most states had across their entire population.
Nearly 3,700 this week in K12 cases alone.
Total new cases for all of Florida7 days: 27,125.
Rank in country: #51
(1 is best- 51 is worst)
The bill that DeSantis signed (per your own link) does not go into effect until July Ist. Long before then everyone who wants the vaccine in Florida will have received it. So I'm good with it.
Take a snapshot, cherry pick, whatever. Florida has done better than many of the bigger states and as well as virtually all of them with considerably less suffering by its citizens. But I guess bankruptcies, unemployment, all the terrible issues that result from remote learning, etc., etc., are meaningless to you. You should move someplace where the policies have been (in your opinion) effective. New York, New Jersey, Texas, California, Illinois and Michigan are good comps. All things considered, I'd choose Florida over all of them. I think I'm in a pretty solid majority in that thinking. I'd rather consider the empirical evidence, you'd rather argue politics. So be it.
Quote from: jsglow on May 10, 2021, 08:17:19 AM
While I generally agree Rocky and would absolutely like the numbers to go up, my hurdle has long been the opportunity to get vaccinated. 60 days ago we all still necessarily had a hand in protecting the population because vax distribution was quite limited. That said, I have little sympathy for the 'when I get around to it' crowd. So take July 4th for example. If the guidance is 'only small groups because we need to protect the unvaccinated', I'll ignore it. At some point in the very short term, the unvaccinated must become 100% responsible for their own health decisions and consequences. I don't think we disagree.
Wow. You are treated with kid gloves around here. ;)
I got nailed when I said I am done caring about people who refuse to get vaccinated and when I criticized Corbin Burnes for his refusal.
Obviously I worry about people dying after getting Covid from an unvaccinated person, but screw the anti-vaxxers.
Maybe I'm being unusually optimistic, but I think we'll see a little bump in June. A lot of people were "wait and see" when it came to this, and the more time that passes without adverse events will help.
That said, I think we all agree that at some point the risk is shifted onto the people who refuse to get it. What I think some, myself included, are worried about is that it seems a lot of public officials want to wait until almost all risk is eliminated. For instance, the MKE Health Dept. gating criteria requires an 80% vaccination rate to drop all restrictions. That was never going to happen.
It'll be an interesting next couple months.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a36381674/vaccines-prevent-transmission-spread/
"If You're Vaccinated You Can Live Your Life Again. It Really Is That Simple."
"But we are getting to a place in this country where we can start to do the things that make life worth living again. We must honor those we lost, and acknowledge that we lost more than we should have, and learn from that. But it's hard to believe that anyone who died from this vicious disease would want we, the living, to delay going back to some of the best things in life longer than is necessary. We can honor them with monuments and remembrances, but we can also honor them by enjoying ourselves. Raise a glass—your free vaccination beer, maybe—with a promise to devote yourself to a life well-lived. As it stands, I intend to go to some concerts this summer. Maybe even a club. That doesn't mean you have to do the same. If being vaccinated means you are not putting others at risk, and this lack of spread means cases and hospitalizations and deaths continue to drop, it's time to choose your own path through the world, just like you did a year and a half ago."
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 10, 2021, 09:59:39 AM
So I just found out that one of the leading researchers on the rona and the vaccines is a UW doc that has a kid in my kid's class.
He was quoted in a news story saying that the first shot gets your immune system warmed up, but the 2nd shot is what will protect you 1) fully and 2) from the variants. (Paraphrasing)
He's also a big believer in the safety of the Pfizer for 12-16 year olds. His 12 year old is getting his shot this week on the news to help move the needle on getting that age group vaxxed.
Wow we are at the point in the pandemic where vaccine puns are being thrown about
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 10, 2021, 01:08:23 PM
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a36381674/vaccines-prevent-transmission-spread/
"If You're Vaccinated You Can Live Your Life Again. It Really Is That Simple."
"But we are getting to a place in this country where we can start to do the things that make life worth living again. We must honor those we lost, and acknowledge that we lost more than we should have, and learn from that. But it's hard to believe that anyone who died from this vicious disease would want we, the living, to delay going back to some of the best things in life longer than is necessary. We can honor them with monuments and remembrances, but we can also honor them by enjoying ourselves. Raise a glass—your free vaccination beer, maybe—with a promise to devote yourself to a life well-lived. As it stands, I intend to go to some concerts this summer. Maybe even a club. That doesn't mean you have to do the same. If being vaccinated means you are not putting others at risk, and this lack of spread means cases and hospitalizations and deaths continue to drop, it's time to choose your own path through the world, just like you did a year and a half ago."
My like has already been as normal as I could make it over the last 14 months. When my son is vaccinated, I will be able to celebrate.
Quote from: Jockey on May 10, 2021, 11:12:06 AM
Wow. You are treated with kid gloves around here. ;)
I got nailed when I said I am done caring about people who refuse to get vaccinated and when I criticized Corbin Burnes for his refusal.
Obviously I worry about people dying after getting Covid from an unvaccinated person, but screw the anti-vaxxers.
I actually do care about them. I'm simply saying that their health decisions on a going forward basis once everyone has a reasonable chance to get 2 shots are their responsibility, not mine.
I may have told this story last week. I was at a wedding last weekend where a couple folks indicated that they had no plans to vaccinate. They also didn't expect me to wear a mask in their presence. All good. We're all responsible for ourselves.
Quote from: jsglow on May 10, 2021, 01:55:27 PM
I actually do care about them. I'm simply saying that their health decisions on a going forward basis once everyone has a reasonable chance to get 2 shots are their responsibility, not mine.
I may have told this story last week. I was at a wedding last weekend where a couple folks indicated that they had no plans to vaccinate. They also didn't expect me to wear a mask in their presence. All good. We're all responsible for ourselves.
Amen.
Quote from: jsglow on May 10, 2021, 01:55:27 PM
I actually do care about them. I'm simply saying that their health decisions on a going forward basis once everyone has a reasonable chance to get 2 shots are their responsibility, not mine.
I may have told this story last week. I was at a wedding last weekend where a couple folks indicated that they had no plans to vaccinate. They also didn't expect me to wear a mask in their presence. All good. We're all responsible for ourselves.
I agree Glow. Allowing people to make their own choices and live with the consequences doesn't mean you don't care about them. I wish people wouldn't smoke, drink or use drugs to excess, be inactive, become obese, etc., etc.,.
But I'm not for taking their Lucky Strikes, Jack Daniels or Big Gulps away from them because I (or the government) decides "they would be better off without them". I'll pay higher insurance, risk driving our highways, etc., because prohibition and a free society don't mix well. All of the awful things that happen because of our poor choices don't add up to the awful not having those choices would bring.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 10:27:48 AM
The bill that DeSantis signed (per your own link) does not go into effect until July Ist. Long before then everyone who wants the vaccine in Florida will have received it. So I'm good with it.
Take a snapshot, cherry pick, whatever. Florida has done better than many of the bigger states and as well as virtually all of them with considerably less suffering by its citizens. But I guess bankruptcies, unemployment, all the terrible issues that result from remote learning, etc., etc., are meaningless to you. You should move someplace where the policies have been (in your opinion) effective. New York, New Jersey, Texas, California, Illinois and Michigan are good comps. All things considered, I'd choose Florida over all of them. I think I'm in a pretty solid majority in that thinking. I'd rather consider the empirical evidence, you'd rather argue politics. So be it.
And in the same article, it says that his executive order for the same thing was effective April 2nd. So, yeah, they were violating his order. Surprised you would give your business to such a heavy handed place.
Florida had a ton of visitors that visited, then left and DeSantis ensured that we would never contact trace them back to Florida. And we have a conspiracry loving Uber driver in charge of our counts.
Once again, we are leading the nation in cases. And we are seriously lagging most of the country in vaccine rates. Empirical evidence, indeed.
I think you are leading the country in number of variants, too.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 02:23:02 PM
I agree Glow. Allowing people to make their own choices and live with the consequences doesn't mean you don't care about them. I wish people wouldn't smoke, drink or use drugs to excess, be inactive, become obese, etc., etc.,.
But I'm not for taking their Lucky Strikes, Jack Daniels or Big Gulps away from them because I (or the government) decides "they would be better off without them". I'll pay higher insurance, risk driving our highways, etc., because prohibition and a free society don't mix well. All of the awful things that happen because of our poor choices don't add up to the awful not having those choices would bring.
And your stance on drugs and prostitution are what?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 02:23:02 PM
I agree Glow. Allowing people to make their own choices and live with the consequences doesn't mean you don't care about them. I wish people wouldn't smoke, drink or use drugs to excess, be inactive, become obese, etc., etc.,.
But I'm not for taking their Lucky Strikes, Jack Daniels or Big Gulps away from them because I (or the government) decides "they would be better off without them". I'll pay higher insurance, risk driving our highways, etc., because prohibition and a free society don't mix well. All of the awful things that happen because of our poor choices don't add up to the awful not having those choices would bring.
I agree up to the point where an individuals bad choices have a negative impact to those around them. Drink as much as you want but as soon as you get behind the wheel it negatively impacts those around you - therefore it's illegal. Smoke until your lungs are briquettes but second hand smoke causes damage to others - therefore it's prohibited in public. Don't get the vaccine but the more people who choose to go unvaccinated the higher likelihood of a variant developing that will make all our vaccinations much less effective - therefore feel free to return to normal social interaction without any responsibility?
Again, totally agree that not getting vaccinated is a choice and I wouldn't force people to get it (or outlaw cigs, or ban booze) but that choice could have an impact on others and therefore there should be limits to what that impact is.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 10, 2021, 04:05:03 PM
And your stance on drugs and prostitution are what?
Legal, regulated.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 05:30:46 PM
Legal, regulated.
How much heroin should I be allowed to buy at once?
Quote from: naginiF on May 10, 2021, 05:08:21 PM
I agree up to the point where an individuals bad choices have a negative impact to those around them. Drink as much as you want but as soon as you get behind the wheel it negatively impacts those around you - therefore it's illegal. Smoke until your lungs are briquettes but second hand smoke causes damage to others - therefore it's prohibited in public. Don't get the vaccine but the more people who choose to go unvaccinated the higher likelihood of a variant developing that will make all our vaccinations much less effective - therefore feel free to return to normal social interaction without any responsibility?
Again, totally agree that not getting vaccinated is a choice and I wouldn't force people to get it (or outlaw cigs, or ban booze) but that choice could have an impact on others and therefore there should be limits to what that impact is.
naginiF,
Do we know that unvaccinated people present a danger to others? If and when we do, restrictions on those folks would make sense. But unless a direct link of the type you mention is established, I'll stick with the idea that the idiots who won't get vaxxed are only endangering themselves.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 10, 2021, 05:38:10 PM
How much heroin should I be allowed to buy at once?
I'll leave that to the FDA.
How much booze can you buy at once? Enough to kill yourself and then some, ai'na?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 05:45:37 PM
I'll leave that to the FDA.
How much booze can you buy at once? Enough to kill yourself and then some, ai'na?
I doubt the FDA would weigh in. ;) ;)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 05:43:21 PM
naginiF,
Do we know that unvaccinated people present a danger to others? If and when we do, restrictions on those folks would make sense. But unless a direct link of the type you mention is established, I'll stick with the idea that the idiots who won't get vaxxed are only endangering themselves.
We know unvaccinated people can get Covid. We know people with Covid spread it to others. We know a small percentage of those people will die.
Hardly just endangering themselves.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 05:43:21 PM
naginiF,
Do we know that unvaccinated people present a danger to others? If and when we do, restrictions on those folks would make sense. But unless a direct link of the type you mention is established, I'll stick with the idea that the idiots who won't get vaxxed are only endangering themselves.
My understanding is that unvaccinated people do present a danger to others, not with the existing COVID virus but for the next one (variant):
- variants are caused by mutations that 'take hold'
- the majority of mutations don't take hold
- the more mutations there are the higher the likelihood one takes hold
- the more mutations that take hold the more likely one is a variant that existing vaccines are not effective against
- therefore, the more unvaccinated people = more opportunity for a mutation = higher chance existing vaccine is not effective
If we don't get enough people vaccinated the likely ongoing scenario is the rest of us will need to get yearly boosters (I'm throwing out the "full blown lockdown for another year" and "it'll just go away" extremes). I for one think that if we have to go through anything close to the 24hrs after the second shot on a yearly basis because people choose not to get vaccinated it would definitely a) be a negative impact on others and b) be a situation where those not vaccinated have restrictions.
As far as what those restrictions are? This is a rabbit hole, but call me Alice......On the local level I'm OK with the CDC publishing guidelines, individual venues deciding what to enforce, and people choosing where to go depending on their comfort level. For travel, the gov would have to establish the rules, just add it to the existing TSA list of rules.
Quote from: Jockey on May 10, 2021, 06:30:18 PM
We know unvaccinated people can get Covid. We know people with Covid spread it to others. We know a small percentage of those people will die.
Hardly just endangering themselves.
In your world we'll never get back to normal. As long as there is ANY risk, stay hidden in your closet. Guess what, there will always be SOME risk in everything you do. And someday, you're going to die from SOMETHING.
The vast majority of the people put at risk by the unvaxxed will be others who are unvaxxed. And you're on record that you don't even care about them anyway. You hope they get sick and die. I don't, but it's a dumb risk they're taking. For them, it's que sera, sera.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 10, 2021, 05:43:21 PM
naginiF,
Do we know that unvaccinated people present a danger to others? If and when we do, restrictions on those folks would make sense. But unless a direct link of the type you mention is established, I'll stick with the idea that the idiots who won't get vaxxed are only endangering themselves.
Yes. We do.
There is a certain segment of the population that cannot take the vaccine.
Unvaccinated folks who become infected can spread to those who cannot take the vaccine.
There's your present danger.
Quote from: tower912 on May 10, 2021, 10:02:30 AM
The day it is OK'd, my 14 year old will get his first shot.
15 year old scheduled for next Tuesday. Would have been sooner, but Pfizer is hard to get here.
I get the discussion about variants/spread etc but it's just not feasible to prevent that. Too much global travel and too many countries in worse situations.
Honestly the best carrot will be when states with high vaccination rates start doing normal things. We're getting to the point in many states (and world with UK and Israel) that the spread has been absolutely crushed by the vaccine. Time to get back to normal and get your annual booster.
By the way I am all for employers/businesses and schools putting whatever vaccine requirement they want in place to keep their environments safe. But it's unrealistic to think broad based anything is feasible sans an absolute breakout mutation that sets us back to square one.
All my opinion of course.
Quote from: naginiF on May 10, 2021, 07:11:39 PM
My understanding is that unvaccinated people do present a danger to others, not with the existing COVID virus but for the next one (variant):
- variants are caused by mutations that 'take hold'
- the majority of mutations don't take hold
- the more mutations there are the higher the likelihood one takes hold
- the more mutations that take hold the more likely one is a variant that existing vaccines are not effective against
- therefore, the more unvaccinated people = more opportunity for a mutation = higher chance existing vaccine is not effective
If we don't get enough people vaccinated the likely ongoing scenario is the rest of us will need to get yearly boosters (I'm throwing out the "full blown lockdown for another year" and "it'll just go away" extremes). I for one think that if we have to go through anything close to the 24hrs after the second shot on a yearly basis because people choose not to get vaccinated it would definitely a) be a negative impact on others and b) be a situation where those not vaccinated have restrictions.
As far as what those restrictions are? This is a rabbit hole, but call me Alice......On the local level I'm OK with the CDC publishing guidelines, individual venues deciding what to enforce, and people choosing where to go depending on their comfort level. For travel, the gov would have to establish the rules, just add it to the existing TSA list of rules.
There are consequences of bad behavior that we legislate against (drunk driving) and those that we live with. All of us who take care of ourselves, eat right, stay in shape, etc, pay for those who choose to drink, smoke and eat themselves into medical problems. Rather than legislate against the bad behavior, the healthy (with higher insurance premiums, for examples) subsidize it. Responsible people will always take care of the irresponsible. So, if necessary, we'll get the boosters and put up with it. It's the price of a free society. IMO it's worth it.
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 10, 2021, 07:19:06 PM
Yes. We do.
There is a certain segment of the population that cannot take the vaccine.
Unvaccinated folks who become infected can spread to those who cannot take the vaccine.
There's your present danger.
So what do you propose for those who cannot take the vaccine? COVID will never be eradicated, so we cant just say "oh everyone hold the line until it's gone and those unvaccinated are protected"
Quote from: JWags85 on May 10, 2021, 08:24:10 PM
So what do you propose for those who cannot take the vaccine? COVID will never be eradicated, so we cant just say "oh everyone hold the line until it's gone and those unvaccinated are protected"
plasma antibodies
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 10, 2021, 05:38:10 PM
How much heroin should I be allowed to buy at once?
Probably just stick to your usual amount.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 10, 2021, 01:35:21 PM
Wow we are at the point in the pandemic where vaccine puns are being thrown about
Ha, totally unintentional.
seems doc fettucine could have played a major role in preventing covid from getting out of lab? from a very well written article, i'll cut to the chase-he exploited a funding "loophole" allowing the research to move forward because it was necessary to "protect public health"???
but if we aren't open and honest about where the hell this virus came from and how, get ready for another one, more masks, vaccines and $pending. and this from a country who can't seem to control the re-entry of their rocket parts? good thing they don't fill that thing with contagious bugs err anything
https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
"The responsibility of the NIAID and NIH is even more acute because for the first three years of the grant to EcoHealth Alliance, there was a moratorium on funding gain-of-function research. Why didn't the two agencies therefore halt the federal funding, as apparently required to do so by law? Because someone wrote a loophole into the moratorium.
The moratorium specifically barred funding any gain-of-function research that increased the pathogenicity of the flu, MERS, or SARS viruses. But then a footnote on page 2 of the moratorium document states that "[a]n exception from the research pause may be obtained if the head of the USG funding agency determines that the research is urgently necessary to protect the public health or national security."
This seems to mean that either the director of the NIAID, Anthony Fauci, or the director of the NIH, Francis Collins, or maybe both, would have invoked the footnote in order to keep the money flowing to Shi's gain-of-function research.
"Unfortunately, the NIAID director and the NIH director exploited this loophole to issue exemptions to projects subject to the Pause—preposterously asserting the exempted research was 'urgently necessary to protect public health or national security' — thereby nullifying the Pause," Ebright said in an interview with Independent Science News."
Quote from: JWags85 on May 10, 2021, 08:24:10 PM
So what do you propose for those who cannot take the vaccine? COVID will never be eradicated, so we cant just say "oh everyone hold the line until it's gone and those unvaccinated are protected"
I don't have a good answer to your question.
I was merely pointing out to Lenny that there is a current danger posed to others by the anti vaxx folks.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 10, 2021, 09:04:20 PM
seems doc fettucine could have played a major role in preventing covid from getting out of lab? from a very well written article, i'll cut to the chase-he exploited a funding "loophole" allowing the research to move forward because it was necessary to "protect public health"???
but if we aren't open and honest about where the hell this virus came from and how, get ready for another one, more masks, vaccines and $pending. and this from a country who can't seem to control the re-entry of their rocket parts? good thing they don't fill that thing with contagious bugs err anything
https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
"The responsibility of the NIAID and NIH is even more acute because for the first three years of the grant to EcoHealth Alliance, there was a moratorium on funding gain-of-function research. Why didn't the two agencies therefore halt the federal funding, as apparently required to do so by law? Because someone wrote a loophole into the moratorium.
The moratorium specifically barred funding any gain-of-function research that increased the pathogenicity of the flu, MERS, or SARS viruses. But then a footnote on page 2 of the moratorium document states that "[a]n exception from the research pause may be obtained if the head of the USG funding agency determines that the research is urgently necessary to protect the public health or national security."
This seems to mean that either the director of the NIAID, Anthony Fauci, or the director of the NIH, Francis Collins, or maybe both, would have invoked the footnote in order to keep the money flowing to Shi's gain-of-function research.
"Unfortunately, the NIAID director and the NIH director exploited this loophole to issue exemptions to projects subject to the Pause—preposterously asserting the exempted research was 'urgently necessary to protect public health or national security' — thereby nullifying the Pause," Ebright said in an interview with Independent Science News."
You really should stop watching Tucker Carlson.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 10, 2021, 08:32:19 PM
Probably just stick to your usual amount.
It's really strange that you keep buying from me when you could be buying wholesale from my guy.
Thanks for the dono!
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 10, 2021, 09:04:20 PM
. and this from a country who can't seem to control the re-entry of their rocket parts?
jeez, your handle includes rocket lol, you think we've never had space junk crash back to earth? Skylab anyone?
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on May 11, 2021, 11:33:11 AM
jeez, your handle includes rocket lol, you think we've never had space junk crash back to earth? Skylab anyone?
You don't remember all the investigations into the total incompetence of the CDC and FDA after Challenger blew up?
Quote from: forgetful on May 10, 2021, 11:32:30 PM
You really should stop watching Tucker Carlson.
you guys really hate opposition research eyn'a? just toe the line and shut up? that's scary thinking. btw, did you even bother reading the article? how about commenting on the substance rather than the person who's popularizing an opposing view. you still watching don lemon or jake tapper? well stop it
LFG America, keep getting those 💉's.
https://twitter.com/aslavitt46/status/1392166129712381954?s=21
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 02:47:20 PM
you guys really hate opposition research eyn'a? just toe the line and shut up? that's scary thinking. btw, did you even bother reading the article? how about commenting on the substance rather than the person who's popularizing an opposing view. you still watching don lemon or jake tapper? well stop it
lmao
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 02:47:20 PM
you guys really hate opposition research eyn'a? just toe the line and shut up? that's scary thinking. btw, did you even bother reading the article? how about commenting on the substance rather than the person who's popularizing an opposing view. you still watching don lemon or jake tapper? well stop it
I read the first few pages before it got too complex for my brain. I thought it was interesting and made some good points. I would like to see it validated by other sources.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 02:47:20 PM
you guys really hate opposition research eyn'a? just toe the line and shut up? that's scary thinking. btw, did you even bother reading the article? how about commenting on the substance rather than the person who's popularizing an opposing view. you still watching don lemon or jake tapper? well stop it
I did, there was no substance to it, just like the space between Tucker Carlson's ears.
And, actually I don't watch either of those. I like my news in print, where I can read and think for myself.
edit: decided to at least give the original link's argument a moments effort to refute. Since the origin debate has been addressed extensively previously, I'll address the latter part, that somehow Fauci and/or Collins share some blame. It is a moronic idea, that anyone with even a modicum of interest in the idea can disprove in minutes.
1. The original grant was approved for funding before the moratorium on gain of function research. So no extra approvals needed.
2. The grant doing the recent research was re-reviewed in 2019, after the moratorium ended.
3. The moratorium ended in 2017, at the direction of Donald J. Trump and his HHS secretary, who said it was no longer needed because they created a special secret panel that would review any grants conducting such research. The members of that secret panel are unknown.
Now, quick question. If this information is readily available, why didn't Tucker or your article bring up this information. Especially that last tidbit?
Quote from: forgetful on May 11, 2021, 04:38:59 PM
I did, there was no substance to it, just like the space between Tucker Carlson's ears.
And, actually I don't watch either of those. I like my news in print, where I can read and think for myself.
edit: decided to at least give the original link's argument a moments effort to refute. Since the origin debate has been addressed extensively previously, I'll address the latter part, that somehow Fauci and/or Collins share some blame. It is a moronic idea, that anyone with even a modicum of interest in the idea can disprove in minutes.
1. The original grant was approved for funding before the moratorium on gain of function research. So no extra approvals needed.
2. The grant doing the recent research was re-reviewed in 2019, after the moratorium ended.
3. The moratorium ended in 2017, at the direction of Donald J. Trump and his HHS secretary, who said it was no longer needed because they created a special secret panel that would review any grants conducting such research. The members of that secret panel are unknown.
Now, quick question. If this information is readily available, why didn't Tucker or your article bring up this information. Especially that last tidbit?
ok, this is not from tucker-
"And now we know that Dr. Tony Fauci and the NIH funded the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2015"
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/breaking-dr-fauci-obama-admin-gave-wuhan-lab-3-7-million-top-dr-shi-zhengli-us-project-shut-sent-back-china/
and btw, dr shi lists uncle tony as one of the money donors to the project
"At least some of the U.S. tax subsidies that went to the Wuhan Institute of Virology came from Dr. Anthony Fauci's National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases."
https://thenewamerican.com/newsweek-fauci-s-virus-outfit-subsidized-wuhan-virus-lab-famed-virus-fighter-backs-controversial-research/
you guys better keep up. you ain't gonna see this on CNN tonight, nor msnbc, abc, cbs, nbc, twitter, facebook, faceplant, nopanties, xyz...guess ya'll just have to watch tucker
listen, if we do not get to the bottom of this, the next one will be worse. history my friend
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 06:43:05 PM
ok, this is not from tucker-
"And now we know that Dr. Tony Fauci and the NIH funded the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2015"
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/breaking-dr-fauci-obama-admin-gave-wuhan-lab-3-7-million-top-dr-shi-zhengli-us-project-shut-sent-back-china/
and btw, dr shi lists uncle tony as one of the money donors to the project
"At least some of the U.S. tax subsidies that went to the Wuhan Institute of Virology came from Dr. Anthony Fauci's National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases."
https://thenewamerican.com/newsweek-fauci-s-virus-outfit-subsidized-wuhan-virus-lab-famed-virus-fighter-backs-controversial-research/
you guys better keep up. you ain't gonna see this on CNN tonight, nor msnbc, abc, cbs, nbc, twitter, facebook, faceplant, nopanties, xyz...guess ya'll just have to watch tucker
listen, if we do not get to the bottom of this, the next one will be worse. history my friend
Pretty sure that was well known a year ago.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 06:43:05 PM
ok, this is not from tucker-
"And now we know that Dr. Tony Fauci and the NIH funded the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2015"
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/breaking-dr-fauci-obama-admin-gave-wuhan-lab-3-7-million-top-dr-shi-zhengli-us-project-shut-sent-back-china/
and btw, dr shi lists uncle tony as one of the money donors to the project
"At least some of the U.S. tax subsidies that went to the Wuhan Institute of Virology came from Dr. Anthony Fauci's National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases."
https://thenewamerican.com/newsweek-fauci-s-virus-outfit-subsidized-wuhan-virus-lab-famed-virus-fighter-backs-controversial-research/
you guys better keep up. you ain't gonna see this on CNN tonight, nor msnbc, abc, cbs, nbc, twitter, facebook, faceplant, nopanties, xyz...guess ya'll just have to watch tucker
listen, if we do not get to the bottom of this, the next one will be worse. history my friend
Quit reading crap news sources that don't even spend 2-minutes trying to get the facts. None of what you say above is new, but it is crap news that reiterates false talking points.
1. The entire grant was $3.7M. You can find details of the grant and $ amounts, here.
https://grantome.com/search?q=Peter%20Daszak
2. It was awarded to Eco Health Alliance and Peter Daszak, with Erik Stemmy as the program officer in charge of reviewing the grant. Of that total amount only $199,000 was subcontracted to the Wuhan Virology institute. This was all awarded before the moratorium on gain of function research.
3. In July of 2019, the grant was re-approved under the Trump administration. At that point, the Wuhan institute was budgeted an additional $76,000.
4. In 2020 (awarded), but reviewed in 2019, again under the Trump administration, Eco Health Alliance with Wuhan institute as a subcontractor was awarded an additional massive grant amounting to $1.55M in the first year alone, of a 5-year grant.
These latter two aspects were after, at the direction of the Trump administration and his secretary of HHS, they reversed the moratorium on gain of function research.
All of this is despite the fact that the current evidence indicates the virus is of natural origin, and ignores the fact that the research that came from the 2014 grant was helpful in developing improved vaccines.
Quote from: forgetful on May 11, 2021, 07:52:05 PM
Quit reading crap news sources that don't even spend 2-minutes trying to get the facts. None of what you say above is new, but it is crap news that reiterates false talking points.
1. The entire grant was $3.7M. You can find details of the grant and $ amounts, here.
https://grantome.com/search?q=Peter%20Daszak
2. It was awarded to Eco Health Alliance and Peter Daszak, with Erik Stemmy as the program officer in charge of reviewing the grant. Of that total amount only $199,000 was subcontracted to the Wuhan Virology institute. This was all awarded before the moratorium on gain of function research.
3. In July of 2019, the grant was re-approved under the Trump administration. At that point, the Wuhan institute was budgeted an additional $76,000.
4. In 2020 (awarded), but reviewed in 2019, again under the Trump administration, Eco Health Alliance with Wuhan institute as a subcontractor was awarded an additional massive grant amounting to $1.55M in the first year alone, of a 5-year grant.
These latter two aspects were after, at the direction of the Trump administration and his secretary of HHS, they reversed the moratorium on gain of function research.
All of this is despite the fact that the current evidence indicates the virus is of natural origin, and ignores the fact that the research that came from the 2014 grant was helpful in developing improved vaccines.
so my news is "crap news" but yours is all good? interesting
AND
dr rand paul is all full of chit too? interesting
i believe fauci lost all credibility long ago. he might have had his day and his fans, but as a "doctor", he embarrassed himself and should have quit before going "hollywood"
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 08:11:26 PM
so my news is "crap news" but yours is all good? interesting
AND
dr rand paul is all full of chit too? interesting
i believe fauci lost all credibility long ago. he might have had his day and his fans, but as a "doctor", he embarrassed himself and should have quit before going "hollywood"
Just to be clear. You think we should be following the eye doctor's guidance about infectious diseases? And you don't view Fauci as a real doctor?
Quote from: forgetful on May 11, 2021, 07:52:05 PM
Quit reading crap news sources that don't even spend 2-minutes trying to get the facts. None of what you say above is new, but it is crap news that reiterates false talking points.
1. The entire grant was $3.7M. You can find details of the grant and $ amounts, here.
https://grantome.com/search?q=Peter%20Daszak
2. It was awarded to Eco Health Alliance and Peter Daszak, with Erik Stemmy as the program officer in charge of reviewing the grant. Of that total amount only $199,000 was subcontracted to the Wuhan Virology institute. This was all awarded before the moratorium on gain of function research.
3. In July of 2019, the grant was re-approved under the Trump administration. At that point, the Wuhan institute was budgeted an additional $76,000.
4. In 2020 (awarded), but reviewed in 2019, again under the Trump administration, Eco Health Alliance with Wuhan institute as a subcontractor was awarded an additional massive grant amounting to $1.55M in the first year alone, of a 5-year grant.
These latter two aspects were after, at the direction of the Trump administration and his secretary of HHS, they reversed the moratorium on gain of function research.
All of this is despite the fact that the current evidence indicates the virus is of natural origin, and ignores the fact that the research that came from the 2014 grant was helpful in developing improved vaccines.
Quit reading CRAP news cause my NOT crap news tells me all the evidence points to natural origin. Which tells anyone with a lick of objectivity that your news sources are indeed EQUALLY crappy.
Man are we a broken country right now.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 08:11:26 PM
so my news is "crap news" but yours is all good? interesting
AND
dr rand paul is all full of chit too? interesting
i believe fauci lost all credibility long ago. he might have had his day and his fans, but as a "doctor", he embarrassed himself and should have quit before going "hollywood"
I'm not getting any of my info on this from the news. I'm getting it from the science and public documents.
All these grants are public information.
The public documents definitively prove you and your news sources wrong. You can keep your head in the sand all you want, but there are no facts to support your assertions.
And yes, Rand Paul is full of chit.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on May 11, 2021, 09:01:23 PM
Quit reading CRAP news cause my NOT crap news tells me all the evidence points to natural origin. Which tells anyone with a lick of objectivity that your news sources are indeed EQUALLY crappy.
Man are we a broken country right now.
See above, I'm not citing any news, I'm citing public documents. Those definitively prove the arguments Rocket and his "Crap News" wrong.
Ask yourself, why any credible news agency would publish reports without citing any evidence, when a 2-minute google search will provide you with public documentation that your story is false.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on May 11, 2021, 09:01:23 PM
Quit reading CRAP news cause my NOT crap news tells me all the evidence points to natural origin. Which tells anyone with a lick of objectivity that your news sources are indeed EQUALLY crappy.
Man are we a broken country right now.
I love how the Gateway Pundit now equates to an actual professional (forgetful) who has studied this topic for years, and has been nothing but open, knowledgeable and transparent about what they know, and who has been both critical and praising of officials regardless of political affiliation.
But yeah, same thing as the Gateway Pundit.
Quote from: reinko on May 11, 2021, 09:14:21 PM
I love how the Gateway Pundit now equates to an actual professional (forgetful) who has studied this topic for years, and has been nothing but open, knowledgeable and transparent about what they know, and who has been both critical and praising of officials regardless of political affiliation.
But yeah, same thing as the Gateway Pundit.
I didn't say a word about gateway pundit or forgetful's work done in this area. I know little to none about either.
Just the general discourse back and forth and lack of respect from each "side" towards differing opinions is frustrating. Everyone is an expert and everything has turned into a right/wrong with no grey in between bickering match.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on May 11, 2021, 09:23:35 PM
Just the general discourse back and forth and lack of respect from each "side" towards differing opinions is frustrating.
That's the problem--there aren't differing opinions. One is a verifiable, objective fact supported by public documents and the other is...well, it isn't even an opinion, it is a lie that is directly contradicted by the verifiable facts. But one side has bought into this fantasy that what they *want* to be true is just as valid as the actual truth.
Kelly Ann's "alternative facts"...also known as lies.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 06:43:05 PM
ok, this is not from tucker-
"And now we know that Dr. Tony Fauci and the NIH funded the Wuhan Institute of Virology in 2015"
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/breaking-dr-fauci-obama-admin-gave-wuhan-lab-3-7-million-top-dr-shi-zhengli-us-project-shut-sent-back-china/
and btw, dr shi lists uncle tony as one of the money donors to the project
"At least some of the U.S. tax subsidies that went to the Wuhan Institute of Virology came from Dr. Anthony Fauci's National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases."
https://thenewamerican.com/newsweek-fauci-s-virus-outfit-subsidized-wuhan-virus-lab-famed-virus-fighter-backs-controversial-research/
you guys better keep up. you ain't gonna see this on CNN tonight, nor msnbc, abc, cbs, nbc, twitter, facebook, faceplant, nopanties, xyz...guess ya'll just have to watch tucker
listen, if we do not get to the bottom of this, the next one will be worse. history my friend
(https://media.tenor.com/images/7b26fa4e4ed0f152c81fe8c2f3345abe/tenor.gif)
This thread would be a lot more hilarious if it weren't so sad.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 12, 2021, 06:03:42 AM
This thread would be a lot more hilarious if it weren't so sad.
Shhhh! I'm waiting for him to bring up Hunter Biden's laptop or Mike Lindell
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 11, 2021, 08:11:26 PM
so my news is "crap news" but yours is all good? interesting
AND
dr rand paul is all full of chit too? interesting
i believe fauci lost all credibility long ago. he might have had his day and his fans, but as a "doctor", he embarrassed himself and should have quit before going "hollywood"
Yet, if the President in place at the time had listened to his advice, he may still be President today and not overseen a "response" that killed hundreds of thousands of Americans.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 10, 2021, 07:29:33 PM
15 year old scheduled for next Tuesday. Would have been sooner, but Pfizer is hard to get here.
12 & 14 year olds have appts for Friday
I don't usually say this, but what Ohio is doing is brilliant.
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 05:57:09 AM
I don't usually say this, but what Ohio is doing is brilliant.
Their governor has repeatedly made choices in the past year that show he is scientifically literate, or has decent advisors.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/rebekah-jones-the-covid-whistleblower-who-wasnt/amp/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=breaking&utm_campaign=newstrack&utm_term=23831066&__twitter_impression=true
Another Covid "speak truth to power" hero who was highlighted on cable news turns out to be a total fraud. Ms Jones joins an increasingly growing list.
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 05:57:09 AM
I don't usually say this, but what Ohio is doing is brilliant.
It's both a good idea, and, equally sad that it has come that. Giving away large sums of money randomly who get vaccinated.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on May 13, 2021, 07:46:33 AM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/05/rebekah-jones-the-covid-whistleblower-who-wasnt/amp/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=breaking&utm_campaign=newstrack&utm_term=23831066&__twitter_impression=true
Another Covid "speak truth to power" hero who was highlighted on cable news turns out to be a total fraud. Ms Jones joins an increasingly growing list.
We found Flyer's source of info on Florida. 🤣🤣🤣
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 05:57:09 AM
I don't usually say this, but what Ohio is doing is brilliant.
Carrots and sticks help.
Just give everyone $500 who gets it. Make concerts/sports/etc not accessible for those who don't.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 13, 2021, 09:18:00 AM
We found Flyer's source of info on Florida. 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, that's it. I haven't had regular conversations with Florida DOH staff for over a decade. ::) I haven't spent almost 2 decades dealing directly with various Florida state agencies and have friends on both sides of the aisle in Florida state government. ::)
And an opinion piece in a right wing source is what is being used as proof? Solid!
Quote from: naginiF on May 12, 2021, 06:53:17 PM
12 & 14 year olds have appts for Friday
Got it moved up to today! A non Florida based entity comes to the rescue.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 13, 2021, 11:04:39 AM
Yeah, that's it. I haven't had regular conversations with Florida DOH staff for over a decade. ::) I haven't spent almost 2 decades dealing directly with various Florida state agencies and have friends on both sides of the aisle in Florida state government. ::)
And an opinion piece in a right wing source is what is being used as proof? Solid!
Well, if you did have that we'd finally be able to take you seriously.
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 05:57:09 AM
I don't usually say this, but what Ohio is doing is brilliant.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1OnMHbWYAMBlTG?format=jpg&name=small)
Quote from: cheebs09 on May 13, 2021, 11:14:08 AM
Well, if you did have that we'd finally be able to take you seriously.
Imagine the credibility I would have if I had a personal relationship with 2 former DOH CIOs that still have tons of contacts there and talk to those two regularly. If only I had that kind of insight. Heck, then I would even know the new preferred place for off site meetings after the Silver Slipper shut down when government in the sunshine laws passed. ;)
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on May 11, 2021, 09:01:23 PM
Man are we a broken country right now.
Do something to fix it, Pace. Join these lifelong conservative Republicans and their allies who are desperately trying to save our democracy:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/05/13/new-gop-alliance-dent-peters-riggleman-steele-whitman/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F32555e7%2F609d55749d2fdae3024e68b8%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F17%2F68%2F609d55749d2fdae3024e68b8
Tragically, the Republican Party has lost its way, perverted by fear, lies and self-interest. What's more, GOP attacks on the integrity of our elections and our institutions pose a continuing and material threat to the nation.
The Jan. 6 insurrection was a wake-up call for many who had remained loyal to the party, even while harboring concerns about its direction.
Many have since left. The GOP has effectively become a privileged third party, ranking behind independents and Democrats in voter registration.
Meanwhile, Republican legislators are trying to impede voting rights across the country as a last-ditch effort to retain power.
We will not wait forever for the GOP to clean up its act. If we cannot save the Republican Party from itself, we will help save America from extremist elements in the Republican Party.
Seems to be heading toward a schism. Sedition caucus vs modicum of sanity.
14 year old scheduled for tomorrow
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 01:12:06 PM
14 year old scheduled for tomorrow
Hopefully, million of others will follow.
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 01:12:06 PM
14 year old scheduled for tomorrow
you rented him an apartment just over the border in OH to establish residency first right?
Dammit. Although, for the under 18, it is free tuition at a state university. Free tuition, but in Ohio. Mixed blessing.
The "Disinformation Dozen" list of 12 people responsible for 60% of all vaccine falsehoods on the internet:
Link .. Disinfo Dozen .. people start on page 12 (https://252f2edd-1c8b-49f5-9bb2-cb57bb47e4ba.filesusr.com/ugd/f4d9b9_b7cedc0553604720b7137f8663366ee5.pdf)
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 01:12:06 PM
14 year old scheduled for tomorrow
My 15yo got it last night. Sore arm today. That's it.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 14, 2021, 05:09:16 PM
My 15yo got it last night. Sore arm today. That's it.
Good job. I am guessing that the Scoop community is better than the public at large.
Quote from: tower912 on May 13, 2021, 01:12:06 PM
14 year old scheduled for tomorrow
My 14 year old got hers yesterday too. She hates shots and really didn't want to get it but we told her why we thought it was important. The mask requirement was just removed in our District and now she's in the minority wearing a mask to school - that's not the only reason we had her get the vaccine but was one factor in wanting her to get her first dose soon.
Now I have to hope that it's approved for younger kids before September so my 9 year old can get vaccinated before school starts in the fall.
My 12 and 14 year olds will get it tomorrow, here:
http://www.blackhuskybrewing.com/news-events
A free beer (or soda) for vaxxers and their friend? Eff Walgreens. 8-)
14 YOS got it last night. Arm is not even sore this morning. Kids suck.
What are the morals/ethics on removing IP protections for the covid vaccine so other countries have access? I've heard it called "genocidal" to deny other countries access to manufacture this vaccine.
Thoughts?
Quote from: tower912 on May 15, 2021, 08:16:57 AM
14 YOS got it last night. Arm is not even sore this morning. Kids suck.
Punch them in the arm to give them the full experience.
None of his three arms are sore. And he is enjoying the faster 5G gaming.
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 15, 2021, 08:57:00 AM
What are the morals/ethics on removing IP protections for the covid vaccine so other countries have access? I've heard it called "genocidal" to deny other countries access to manufacture this vaccine.
Thoughts?
The morals/ethics would seem to be morality and decency. $$$ normally overrides human decency, but we can hop that isn't the case this time when 10s of millions of lives are on the line.
The other side is why would anyone want to help sh*thole people in sh*thole countries?
Quote from: jesmu84 on May 15, 2021, 08:57:00 AM
What are the morals/ethics on removing IP protections for the covid vaccine so other countries have access? I've heard it called "genocidal" to deny other countries access to manufacture this vaccine.
Thoughts?
People vastly overuse the term genocidal. And also have no idea the true cost of researching and developing drugs. I'm not saying they shouldn't remove IP protections, but it's not cut and dry and simple and refusal to do so isn't necessarily just money grubbing and selfishness
Quote from: JWags85 on May 15, 2021, 11:25:25 AM
People vastly overuse the term genocidal. And also have no idea the true cost of researching and developing drugs. I'm not saying they shouldn't remove IP protections, but it's not cut and dry and simple and refusal to do so isn't necessarily just money grubbing and selfishness
Normally this is the case, but when gov'ts are subsidizing $100s of millions (other than Pfizer) to defray the cost, I think the responsibility is different.
Even the cost isn't what it would be to develop a drug for a specific disease. The structure was in place already due to 2 main things. Genetic sequencing - they had it for Covid within 10 days of knowing about the disease. Second was the work done by the Bush and Obama administrations to quickly develop a SARS or Covid vaccine. It wasn't a years-long trial and error situation like it would have been a generation ago.
Interesting polling by the Kaiser Family Foundation shows that economic class is the main dividing line between those who are getting vaccinated and those who aren't
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2021%2F05%2F24%2Fmultimedia%2F24-MORNING-VACCINEATTITUDES-B%2F24-MORNING-VACCINEATTITUDES-B-articleLarge.png&t=1621859985&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c9a-97021801ca00&sig=KSSZsQbd1SvSWaFOvJgjpw--~D)
From the NYT:
It is common to hear about two different demographic groups that are hesitant to receive a Covid-19 vaccination: Republican voters and racial minorities, especially Black and Latino Americans.
The two groups seem to have different motivations. For Republicans, the attitude is connected to a general skepticism of government and science. For Black and Hispanic Americans, it appears to stem from the country's legacy of providing substandard medical treatment, and sometimes doing outright harm, to minorities.
These ideas all have some truth to them. But they also can obscure the fact that many unvaccinated Republicans and minorities have something in common: They are working class. And there is a huge class gap in vaccination behavior.
As you can see, working-class members of every group are less likely to have received a vaccine and more likely to be skeptical. "No matter which of these groups we looked at, we see an education divide," Mollyann Brodie, who oversees the Kaiser surveys, told me. In some cases, different racial groups with the same education levels — like Black and white college graduates — look remarkably similar.
This poll did not break out Asian-Americans, but other Kaiser surveys have, and it's consistent: Asian-Americans have a higher median income than Black, Hispanic or white Americans and also a higher vaccination rate.
All of which points to the fact that the class divide is bigger than the racial divide.
Great if these findings hold on durability of vaccine efficacy.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/health/coronavirus-immunity-vaccines.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/health/coronavirus-immunity-vaccines.html)
Quote from: MU82 on May 24, 2021, 07:47:25 AM
Interesting polling by the Kaiser Family Foundation shows that economic class is the main dividing line between those who are getting vaccinated and those who aren't
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2021%2F05%2F24%2Fmultimedia%2F24-MORNING-VACCINEATTITUDES-B%2F24-MORNING-VACCINEATTITUDES-B-articleLarge.png&t=1621859985&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c9a-97021801ca00&sig=KSSZsQbd1SvSWaFOvJgjpw--~D)
From the NYT:
It is common to hear about two different demographic groups that are hesitant to receive a Covid-19 vaccination: Republican voters and racial minorities, especially Black and Latino Americans.
The two groups seem to have different motivations. For Republicans, the attitude is connected to a general skepticism of government and science. For Black and Hispanic Americans, it appears to stem from the country's legacy of providing substandard medical treatment, and sometimes doing outright harm, to minorities.
These ideas all have some truth to them. But they also can obscure the fact that many unvaccinated Republicans and minorities have something in common: They are working class. And there is a huge class gap in vaccination behavior.
As you can see, working-class members of every group are less likely to have received a vaccine and more likely to be skeptical. "No matter which of these groups we looked at, we see an education divide," Mollyann Brodie, who oversees the Kaiser surveys, told me. In some cases, different racial groups with the same education levels — like Black and white college graduates — look remarkably similar.
This poll did not break out Asian-Americans, but other Kaiser surveys have, and it's consistent: Asian-Americans have a higher median income than Black, Hispanic or white Americans and also a higher vaccination rate.
All of which points to the fact that the class divide is bigger than the racial divide.
This may sound pedantic, but economic class is not necessarily college graduate vs non college graduate. Some pollsters and economists define it that way, but that is lazy. Social scientists use 3 common methods to define class—by occupation, income, or education—and there is really no consensus about the "right" way to do it. Michael Zweig, a leading scholar in working-class studies, defines the working class as "people who, when they go to work or when they act as citizens, have comparatively little power or authority. They are the people who do their jobs under more or less close supervision, who have little control over the pace or the content of their work, who aren't the boss of anyone."
Michael Zweig, ed., What's Class Got to Do with It? American Society in the Twenty-First Century (New York: ILR Books, 2004)That sounds like most people, even those fresh out of college.
This poll should have been defined by formal education. Plus its only 2000 people.
The single highest discrepancy is still between educated Ds and Rs
12 times as many educated Rs say they will never get the shots.
Quote from: MU82 on May 24, 2021, 07:47:25 AM
Interesting polling by the Kaiser Family Foundation shows that economic class is the main dividing line between those who are getting vaccinated and those who aren't
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2021%2F05%2F24%2Fmultimedia%2F24-MORNING-VACCINEATTITUDES-B%2F24-MORNING-VACCINEATTITUDES-B-articleLarge.png&t=1621859985&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c9a-97021801ca00&sig=KSSZsQbd1SvSWaFOvJgjpw--~D)
If you look at that chart, if we can get 90% of the yellow area to get their vaccine we will be sitting pretty and not need the red area. If a small portion of the yellows get their vaccine, I think next winter will suck again.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 26, 2021, 01:14:25 PM
Great if these findings hold on durability of vaccine efficacy.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/health/coronavirus-immunity-vaccines.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/health/coronavirus-immunity-vaccines.html)
That is great news!
Quote from: MarquetteDano on May 26, 2021, 03:48:21 PM
If you look at that chart, if we can get 90% of the yellow area to get their vaccine we will be sitting pretty and not need the red area. If a small portion of the yellows get their vaccine, I think next winter will suck again.
I hope you're right about the yellow area, and wrong about the suckage.
DeSantis orders cruise ships to allow unvaccinated passengers.
Quote from: Jockey on May 30, 2021, 06:46:46 PM
DeSantis orders cruise ships to allow unvaccinated passengers.
Why does he hate capitalism?
Quote from: Jockey on May 30, 2021, 06:46:46 PM
DeSantis orders cruise ships to allow unvaccinated passengers.
So I will ask the obvious question. What power does he have to issue that order?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on May 30, 2021, 07:40:48 PM
So I will ask the obvious question. What power does he have to issue that order?
The executive order is in place until a state law saying the same thing begins July 1. My guess is that it doesn't stand due to the federal government oversight of interstate commerce, but who knows...
It's mostly political grandstanding.
Just trying to live up to his nickname, "DeSatan".
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 31, 2021, 07:36:11 AM
Just trying to live up to his nickname, "DeSatan".
Florida has cured covid. We just stopped reporting numbers. Problem solved!
Vaccine Conspiracy Theorist Rick Wiles Hospitalized With COVID-19
https://hillreporter.com/vaccine-conspiracy-theorist-rick-wiles-hospitalized-with-covid-19-102360
"I am not going to be vaccinated. I'm going to be one of the survivors. I'm going to survive the genocide,"
"The only good thing that will come out of this is a lot of stupid people will be killed off, and I say stupid because they're not using their brain – their God-given brain – to make a decision for their own good," Wiles said
"Today, he was taken to the emergency room, and under medical advice, was admitted to the hospital. He is currently on oxygen and is expected to remain there for a number of days.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 31, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
Vaccine Conspiracy Theorist Rick Wiles Hospitalized With COVID-19
https://hillreporter.com/vaccine-conspiracy-theorist-rick-wiles-hospitalized-with-covid-19-102360
"I am not going to be vaccinated. I'm going to be one of the survivors. I'm going to survive the genocide,"
"The only good thing that will come out of this is a lot of stupid people will be killed off, and I say stupid because they're not using their brain – their God-given brain – to make a decision for their own good," Wiles said
"Today, he was taken to the emergency room, and under medical advice, was admitted to the hospital. He is currently on oxygen and is expected to remain there for a number of days.
Deep State got him.
Karma's a b*tch.
once again, the media could've done it's part in helping us combat this deadly disease in so many ways. if the media is going to lie about this, what else? this is being widely reported btw. it'll just be a few more days before the other "msm" will report(admit) this, but not until they figure what kind of spin to put on it
https://www.westernjournal.com/dubious-journalism-major-outlet-admits-anti-trump-bias-impacted-reports-covid-origins/
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on May 31, 2021, 06:10:48 PM
once again, the media could've done it's part in helping us combat this deadly disease in so many ways. if the media is going to lie about this, what else? this is being widely reported btw. it'll just be a few more days before the other "msm" will report(admit) this, but not until they figure what kind of spin to put on it
https://www.westernjournal.com/dubious-journalism-major-outlet-admits-anti-trump-bias-impacted-reports-covid-origins/
We agree on this one rocket. Imagine is the media DIDN'T claim COVID was a hoax and encourage people to not take it seriously. Imagine if the media didn't promote useless medicines such as HCQ as miracle cures. Imagine if the media didn't claim COVID was a partisan issue, didn't tell people not to wear masks, and didn't encourage people to "liberate" their statehouses. A lot fewer Americans would have died if not for the disinformation put forth by the media.
The media certainly has a lot to answer for.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 31, 2021, 11:58:06 AM
Deep State got him.
Yet again you have used the slightest opening to go off topic and inject your political opinions.
Oooh ... I can see why it's fun for you to play Scoop Police ... even if you often do the same stuff you rail on others for.
Peace!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-57309538
75% seemed to be the herd immunity threshold in a Brazilian experiment using the Chinese vaccine.
White House outlines a plan for how the U.S. would distribute an initial 25 million doses around the world:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/03/us/politics/world-covid-vaccine-supply-biden.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210603&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=59768&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
The White House, besieged with requests from other nations to share excess doses of coronavirus vaccine, on Thursday announced it will distribute an initial 25 million doses this month across a "wide range of countries" within Latin America and the Caribbean, South and Southeast Asia, and Africa, as well as the war-ravaged Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.
The 25 million represent an initial tranche of a total of 80 million doses President Biden has pledged to send overseas by the end of this month. Three quarters of the first batch will be given to the international vaccine effort known as Covax, officials said. The rest will be reserved for "immediate needs and to help with surges around the world," they said, including in India and Iraq as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
I'm not impressed. If 46 were a real president, he'd have said only countries whose leaders are "nice" to him would get doses, just as 45 made governors grovel for PPE, ventilators and other supplies last spring.
Quote from: MU82 on June 03, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
White House outlines a plan for how the U.S. would distribute an initial 25 million doses around the world:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/03/us/politics/world-covid-vaccine-supply-biden.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210603&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=59768&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
The White House, besieged with requests from other nations to share excess doses of coronavirus vaccine, on Thursday announced it will distribute an initial 25 million doses this month across a "wide range of countries" within Latin America and the Caribbean, South and Southeast Asia, and Africa, as well as the war-ravaged Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.
The 25 million represent an initial tranche of a total of 80 million doses President Biden has pledged to send overseas by the end of this month. Three quarters of the first batch will be given to the international vaccine effort known as Covax, officials said. The rest will be reserved for "immediate needs and to help with surges around the world," they said, including in India and Iraq as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
I'm not impressed. If 46 were a real president, he'd have said only countries whose leaders are "nice" to him would get doses, just as 45 made governors grovel for PPE, ventilators and other supplies last spring.
Can we make the banhammer portion of the new covid board retroactive to today? ::) ::)
Quote from: MU82 on June 03, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
White House outlines a plan for how the U.S. would distribute an initial 25 million doses around the world:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/03/us/politics/world-covid-vaccine-supply-biden.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210603&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=59768&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
The White House, besieged with requests from other nations to share excess doses of coronavirus vaccine, on Thursday announced it will distribute an initial 25 million doses this month across a "wide range of countries" within Latin America and the Caribbean, South and Southeast Asia, and Africa, as well as the war-ravaged Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.
The 25 million represent an initial tranche of a total of 80 million doses President Biden has pledged to send overseas by the end of this month. Three quarters of the first batch will be given to the international vaccine effort known as Covax, officials said. The rest will be reserved for "immediate needs and to help with surges around the world," they said, including in India and Iraq as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
I'm not impressed. If 46 were a real president, he'd have said only countries whose leaders are "nice" to him would get doses, just as 45 made governors grovel for PPE, ventilators and other supplies last spring.
I was hoping that we'd prioritize Canada + Mexico + Central America to improve our nation's security. It's interesting that they went with the smorgasbord option.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 03, 2021, 12:23:11 PM
I was hoping that we'd prioritize Canada + Mexico + Central America to improve our nation's security. It's interesting that they went with the smorgasbord option.
I hadn't seen that discussed, Ska. What you're saying does make sense.
Quote from: MU82 on June 03, 2021, 07:04:38 PM
I hadn't seen that discussed, Ska. What you're saying does make sense.
I came up with it in my brain. If I was in charge I would want healthy, stable neighbors with awesome economies so that we could do business with them. Or a wall, I guess, to keep the Canadians out.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 03, 2021, 12:23:11 PM
I was hoping that we'd prioritize Canada + Mexico + Central America to improve our nation's security. It's interesting that they went with the smorgasbord option.
I actually thought this also. It's a result of a teleconference I had with a Mexico customer about 6-7 weeks ago. They thought the USA would supply excess vaccines to Mexico because it would be in the best interest of both countries due to the large amount of industrial border traffic. They thought at minimum the USA should rapidly vaccinate Mexican citizens along the border.
FWIW
Whoa .. my village is up to 97.8% vaccinated.
I didn't think you could get 14,000 people to agree that water is wet.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on June 04, 2021, 08:56:38 AM
Whoa .. my village is up to 97.8% vaccinated.
I didn't think you could get 14,000 people to agree that water is wet.
Must be a lotta old people?
Quote from: Jockey on June 04, 2021, 09:05:57 AM
Must be a lotta old people?
Not really .. 14% are over 65 .. 12% are 55-65. Pretty standard distribution, may even skew young.
Quote from: MU82 on June 03, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
White House outlines a plan for how the U.S. would distribute an initial 25 million doses around the world:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/03/us/politics/world-covid-vaccine-supply-biden.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210603&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=59768&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
The White House, besieged with requests from other nations to share excess doses of coronavirus vaccine, on Thursday announced it will distribute an initial 25 million doses this month across a "wide range of countries" within Latin America and the Caribbean, South and Southeast Asia, and Africa, as well as the war-ravaged Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.
The 25 million represent an initial tranche of a total of 80 million doses President Biden has pledged to send overseas by the end of this month. Three quarters of the first batch will be given to the international vaccine effort known as Covax, officials said. The rest will be reserved for "immediate needs and to help with surges around the world," they said, including in India and Iraq as well as the West Bank and Gaza.
I'm not impressed. If 46 were a real president, he'd have said only countries whose leaders are "nice" to him would get doses, just as 45 made governors grovel for PPE, ventilators and other supplies last spring.
Ya Cuomo and 45 were besties.
My 12 year old got his 2nd yesterday at 9:30am. Was fine until 9pm last night and then got hit by a ton of bricks. Stayed home from school today, just got out of bed. Seems a little better now.
Quote from: The Lens on June 04, 2021, 10:19:01 AM
My 12 year old got his 2nd yesterday at 9:30am. Was fine until 9pm last night and then got hit by a ton of bricks. Stayed home from school today, just got out of bed. Seems a little better now.
15 yo got his 2nd yesterday at 3pm. So far, so good.
Quote from: The Lens on June 04, 2021, 10:19:01 AM
My 12 year old got his 2nd yesterday at 9:30am. Was fine until 9pm last night and then got hit by a ton of bricks. Stayed home from school today, just got out of bed. Seems a little better now.
Ouch. So .. my 12 and 14 year olds got #1 three weeks ago Sunday. I'd rather have them get the shot Saturday, so if they're sick, it'd be Sunday and not a school day.
Think they'd give a shot after 20 days instead of 21?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on June 04, 2021, 11:40:33 AM
Ouch. So .. my 12 and 14 year olds got #1 three weeks ago Sunday. I'd rather have them get the shot Saturday, so if they're sick, it'd be Sunday and not a school day.
Think they'd give a shot after 20 days instead of 21?
Walgreens wouldn't let me schedule it for 20 days. But not sure if I would have fudged the first shot date what would have happened if we showed up and said oops.
Walgreens isn't gonna break protocol for individual people. They are a licensed pharmacy that has to follow medication guidelines.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on June 04, 2021, 11:40:33 AM
Ouch. So .. my 12 and 14 year olds got #1 three weeks ago Sunday. I'd rather have them get the shot Saturday, so if they're sick, it'd be Sunday and not a school day.
Think they'd give a shot after 20 days instead of 21?
SSM Health in Madison said that you can go 19 days up to 60 days for round 2. They'll give you 2 days prior. I would confirm that before you go, but that was what I was told. Pfizer.
This has come up a lot in the Vaccine Hunters group. The CDC says a shot given up to four days before is still considered valid, but they do not recommend scheduling it that way. Whether a place will give it or not is of course up to them, but it's allowed.
Just for further food for thought, the recommended interval goes up to 42 days and most recommendations would be to go a few days longer as opposed to shorter.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 04, 2021, 01:39:41 PM
SSM Health in Madison said that you can go 19 days up to 60 days for round 2. They'll give you 2 days prior. I would confirm that before you go, but that was what I was told. Pfizer.
I got my first last week. I'm traveling to a wedding the day after what would be the timeframe for my second. We asked the pharmacist if we could do it a day earlier so in case there are side effects, they can hopefully be out of the way. He said not a problem
Good news for many "long-haulers":
Wendy French of Chicago used to run 10 miles a day several times a week before she caught COVID-19 in September, which left her fatigued and suffering from a variety of symptoms for months after the virus was supposedly gone.
The previously healthy 45-year-old stopped running and even began dreading typical household chores such as doing laundry, because it required standing for so long that she grew tired.
But after French got her first dose of the Pfizer vaccine in mid-April, she described feeling healthy for the first time in more than seven months.The second dose in May brought greater improvement to her health.
"I felt really good the next day after the first one," she said. "I had more energy than I've had in weeks."
It's a phenomenon that has surprised – and elated – medical experts: A growing number of COVID-19 "long-haulers," those with lingering long-term symptoms linked to the virus, are reporting sudden improvement after getting a COVID-19 vaccine.
Initial research has found that anywhere from 30% to 40% of these patients describe some symptom relief post-vaccination.
It's still unclear why some coronavirus survivors don't seem to get better weeks or even months after infection. Now scientists and physicians are trying to understand why many of these patients seem to feel better after getting vaccinated, improvements that range from a mild decline in symptoms to a return to their pre-COVID-19 health.
Theories include the possibility that the vaccine might be stopping a harmful immune response in long-haulers or that the shot could be resetting their immune systems. Some clinicians and scientists have theorized that long-haulers suffer from residual amounts of virus remaining in their bodies, and vaccination might help their immune systems fight off what's left over.
Equally puzzling is why the shots seem to help some long-haul patients recuperate while others report no improvement after getting immunized.
"We don't have a lot else to offer people with long-COVID," said Dr. Daniel Griffin, an infectious disease physician at Columbia University in New York. "So the thing we encourage across the board is get those vaccine doses, see if it makes a difference."
A survey on the Survivor Corps Facebook site found that roughly 40% of participants experienced some health improvement post-vaccination. The poll, which was tallied in May, includes nuanced questions about which vaccine the respondent took and the degree of improvement, as well as which symptoms seemed to have lessened or disappeared. Other respondents indicated no change post-vaccination, and some did report feeling worse.
That's good to hear. Two friends of mine ~40 have persistent arthritis symptoms & diminished lung capacity, and they're about 6 months post covid. One has tinnitus, which I wouldn't wish on anyone except for the muscoop admins. I'm hopeful that my friends recover fully sometime soon here...
Marquette to require all to be vaxxed.
https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/)
Nice to see.
Quote from: The Lens on June 07, 2021, 11:16:59 AM
Marquette to require all to be vaxxed.
https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/)
Nice to see.
Good!
Quote from: The Lens on June 07, 2021, 11:16:59 AM
Marquette to require all to be vaxxed.
https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/)
Nice to see.
Good.
Quote from: The Lens on June 07, 2021, 11:16:59 AM
Marquette to require all to be vaxxed.
https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/ (https://today.marquette.edu/2021/06/a-message-from-president-lovell-student-vaccination-requirement/)
Nice to see.
Just to tweak your intro comment a bit Lens. It's All students. Faculty, staff, admin strongly encouraged. :)
Quote from: jsglow on June 07, 2021, 12:47:23 PM
Just to tweak your intro comment a bit Lens. It's All students. Faculty, staff, admin strongly encouraged. :)
Good catch, thx
This sounds good and all, but if you look at the FAQ under "Compliance and Exemptions," you will find this:
"In alignment with our current vaccination policy, vaccine exemptions will be granted for medical, religious and personal conviction reasons."
"Personal conviction" is basically a catch-all for people who just don't want to get it.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 07, 2021, 01:30:01 PM
This sounds good and all, but if you look at the FAQ under "Compliance and Exemptions," you will find this:
"In alignment with our current vaccination policy, vaccine exemptions will be granted for medical, religious and personal conviction reasons."
"Personal conviction" is basically a catch-all for people who just don't want to get it.
In other words, the people who aren't vaccinated will not need to be vaccinated.
Why even have a policy?
Quote from: Jockey on June 07, 2021, 01:51:15 PM
In other words, the people who aren't vaccinated will not need to be vaccinated.
Why even have a policy?
My guess is that those who aren't vaccinated are still going to have to do things like wear masks indoors, quarantine as a close contact, not have overnight visitors in dorm room, etc.
So you have a policy to make it clear that those who are vaccinated are going to be able to have a much more normal college experience.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 07, 2021, 02:24:49 PM
My guess is that those who aren't vaccinated are still going to have to do things like wear masks indoors, quarantine as a close contact, not have overnight visitors in dorm room, etc.
So you have a policy to make it clear that those who are vaccinated are going to be able to have a much more normal college experience.
From the FAQs:
What constitutes a "personal conviction?"
Students who request an exemption based on their personal beliefs must complete and submit an exemption form that requires them to 1) acknowledge the availability of a vaccine; 2) acknowledge the public good of being vaccinated; 3) acknowledge the personal risks of not being vaccinated; and 4) signing (or if a minor, having parent/legal guardian sign) the form to request the exemption based on their personal beliefs.
If a student is approved for a vaccine exemption, what will they be required to participate in related to COVID mitigation on campus?
Students who are granted an exemption will be required to complete the daily COVID Cheq screening process, participate in surveillance testing, quarantine for 14 days if contact tracing determines they came into close contact with someone infected with COVID-19, and any other university-wide protocols related to COVID-19 mitigation.
While there will no longer be a mask requirement in place, we support guidance from health officials that mask wearing indoors decreases the spread of COVID-19. We encourage members of our community who are unvaccinated, immunocompromised or at high risk for COVID-19 complications to continue wearing a mask while indoors.
https://www.marquette.edu/coronavirus/faq-top-ten.php?fbclid=IwAR2kwG8hetkoTvnz6CeDy5yiwTs_6h-KvCUT43ep-u4LMSVU7QKRMTFfVNI
Quote from: warriorchick on June 07, 2021, 02:33:56 PM
From the FAQs:
What constitutes a "personal conviction?"
Students who request an exemption based on their personal beliefs must complete and submit an exemption form that requires them to 1) acknowledge the availability of a vaccine; 2) acknowledge the public good of being vaccinated; 3) acknowledge the personal risks of not being vaccinated; and 4) signing (or if a minor, having parent/legal guardian sign) the form to request the exemption based on their personal beliefs.
If a student is approved for a vaccine exemption, what will they be required to participate in related to COVID mitigation on campus?
Students who are granted an exemption will be required to complete the daily COVID Cheq screening process, participate in surveillance testing, quarantine for 14 days if contact tracing determines they came into close contact with someone infected with COVID-19, and any other university-wide protocols related to COVID-19 mitigation.
While there will no longer be a mask requirement in place, we support guidance from health officials that mask wearing indoors decreases the spread of COVID-19. We encourage members of our community who are unvaccinated, immunocompromised or at high risk for COVID-19 complications to continue wearing a mask while indoors.
https://www.marquette.edu/coronavirus/faq-top-ten.php?fbclid=IwAR2kwG8hetkoTvnz6CeDy5yiwTs_6h-KvCUT43ep-u4LMSVU7QKRMTFfVNI
Yep. Thank you.
Quote from: warriorchick on June 07, 2021, 02:33:56 PM
From the FAQs:
What constitutes a "personal conviction?"
Students who request an exemption based on their personal beliefs must complete and submit an exemption form that requires them to 1) acknowledge the availability of a vaccine; 2) acknowledge the public good of being vaccinated; 3) acknowledge the personal risks of not being vaccinated; and 4) signing (or if a minor, having parent/legal guardian sign) the form to request the exemption based on their personal beliefs.
If a student is approved for a vaccine exemption, what will they be required to participate in related to COVID mitigation on campus?
Students who are granted an exemption will be required to complete the daily COVID Cheq screening process, participate in surveillance testing, quarantine for 14 days if contact tracing determines they came into close contact with someone infected with COVID-19, and any other university-wide protocols related to COVID-19 mitigation.
While there will no longer be a mask requirement in place, we support guidance from health officials that mask wearing indoors decreases the spread of COVID-19. We encourage members of our community who are unvaccinated, immunocompromised or at high risk for COVID-19 complications to continue wearing a mask while indoors.
https://www.marquette.edu/coronavirus/faq-top-ten.php?fbclid=IwAR2kwG8hetkoTvnz6CeDy5yiwTs_6h-KvCUT43ep-u4LMSVU7QKRMTFfVNI
Outstanding info, thanks for providing.
What we have here is this:
You have the freedom of choice, but with that freedom comes responsibilities and consequences.As it should be. Seems like job well-done by our alma mater!
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 07, 2021, 02:24:49 PM
My guess is that those who aren't vaccinated are still going to have to do things like wear masks indoors, quarantine as a close contact, not have overnight visitors in dorm room, etc.
So you have a policy to make it clear that those who are vaccinated are going to be able to have a much more normal college experience.
I actually hope that broadly speaking that's the way it is for all of us. If you're vaccinated, live life to its fullest with absolutely zero restrictions related to Covid. If you're unvaccinated, here's the laundry list of protocols you'll have to follow. Oh, and we as a business have every right NOT to make our product/service available to you. (I'm thinking cruise ships, for example.) Still, nobody is forcing you to be poked.
Need full approval by the FDA before mandates can be made. It's an important next step. There is just emergency approval right now that people forget.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/05/18/covid-vaccines-what-full-fda-approval-means-for-you.html
Also, tie the next stimulus check to the vaccine. Should have been done to start with. The choice remains with the individual.
Quote from: jsglow on June 07, 2021, 04:07:37 PM
I actually hope that broadly speaking that's the way it is for all of us. If you're vaccinated, live life to its fullest with absolutely zero restrictions related to Covid. If you're unvaccinated, here's the laundry list of protocols you'll have to follow. Oh, and we as a business have every right NOT to make our product/service available to you. (I'm thinking cruise ships, for example.) Still, nobody is forcing you to be poked.
How would businesses verify vaccination?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on June 07, 2021, 04:19:43 PM
Need full approval by the FDA before mandates can be made. It's an important next step. There is just emergency approval right now that people forget.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/05/18/covid-vaccines-what-full-fda-approval-means-for-you.html
Also, tie the next stimulus check to the vaccine. Should have been done to start with. The choice remains with the individual.
Next stimulus check? Lolz
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 07, 2021, 04:36:05 PM
How would businesses verify vaccination?
I think that depends on the business. I'm not worried about the corner store or restaurant. I'm thinking things like international travel, university on campus experiences, stuff like that. I'm sorta back where I've been for awhile. I'm vaccinated so leave me alone to do as I please.
Quote from: jsglow on June 07, 2021, 04:57:10 PM
I think that depends on the business. I'm not worried about the corner store or restaurant. I'm thinking things like international travel, university on campus experiences, stuff like that. I'm sorta back where I've been for awhile. I'm vaccinated so leave me alone to do as I please.
I ultimately agree with you that life should be fully open to vaccinated folks and that unvaccinated folks may (should?) have doors closed to them.
But how are private businesses to verify vaccine status? What are the possible choice for how to go about that right now?
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 07, 2021, 04:36:21 PM
Next stimulus check? Lolz
The President (nose picker in chief in this funny picture) says there will be one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/fourth-stimulus-check-white-house-163100028.html
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 07, 2021, 02:24:49 PM
My guess is that those who aren't vaccinated are still going to have to do things like wear masks indoors, quarantine as a close contact, not have overnight visitors in dorm room, etc.
So you have a policy to make it clear that those who are vaccinated are going to be able to have a much more normal college experience.
I hope you are right.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on June 07, 2021, 05:07:07 PM
The President (nose picker in chief in this funny picture) says there will be one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/fourth-stimulus-check-white-house-163100028.html
Anyone ever tell da dude dat ya pick yo nose from da inside out, knot outside inn, hey?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on June 07, 2021, 05:07:07 PM
The President (nose picker in chief in this funny picture) says there will be one.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/fourth-stimulus-check-white-house-163100028.html
I'll believe it when I see it.
Much like any of bidens other proposals.
Quote from: jesmu84 on June 07, 2021, 05:05:16 PM
But how are private businesses to verify vaccine status? What are the possible choice for how to go about that right now?
Show your vaccination card and your ID.
Quote from: warriorchick on June 08, 2021, 03:29:45 PM
Show your vaccination card and your ID.
Yep. The same folks who say ID should be mandatory for voting "because everybody has an ID, and you need ID for everything," should have absolutely no problem with this.
Quote from: MU82 on June 08, 2021, 04:55:33 PM
Yep. The same folks who say ID should be mandatory for voting "because everybody has an ID, and you need ID for everything," should have absolutely no problem with this.
They don't have to like it.
Quote from: MU82 on June 08, 2021, 04:55:33 PM
Yep. The same folks who say ID should be mandatory for voting "because everybody has an ID, and you need ID for everything," should have absolutely no problem with this.
apples and crotch-less panties. let's get the voting thing right first. make sure those who vote have a pulse, vote once and are citizens. now 'bout those panties ;D
https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx?__twitter_impression=true
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on June 08, 2021, 08:33:09 PM
https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx?__twitter_impression=true
From the article you cite: that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection.
I wasn't aware that there was long waiting lists for vaccines. Certainly not here, but perhaps in your world.
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 08, 2021, 09:01:01 PM
From the article you cite: that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection.
I wasn't aware that there was long waiting lists for vaccines. Certainly not here, but perhaps in your world.
Never suggested that. Just saying there's millions of people who unnecessarily went through the vaccination process. In an effort to learn as much as we can about a novel virus I posted it simply in the spirit of #keepsciencing.
Also remember a few posters on here who said they had pretty rough reactions to the vaccine and they thought it might have been from the fact they naturally already had been infected. Too bad they had to go through the unnecessary discomfort.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on June 08, 2021, 08:24:52 PM
apples and crotch-less panties. let's get the voting thing right first. make sure those who vote have a pulse, vote once and are citizens. now 'bout those panties ;D
There has been scant evidence of pulse-less, multiple-voting, non-citizens in the most recent election cycle.
Indeed, the last U.S. election in which widespread fraud was proven was the 2018 election for the U.S. House seat in North Carolina's 9th District. A Republican operative cheated like hell on behalf of the party's candidate, the result got thrown out (over the objections of your hero, who was wrong again), and a new election had to be held.
The results of the 2020 presidential election were subject to dozens of recounts and contested in dozens upon dozens of courts. The recounts, many done by Republicans, confirmed the results. Numerous judges appointed by your hero, including 3 Supreme Court justices, saw no evidence of pulse-less, multiple-voting, non-citizens. Neither did his lapdog of an attorney general, who two years earlier had lied on your hero's behalf about the Mueller Report. A 5-person election panel in Arizona, which includes 4 Republicans, has called the "audit" going on there a sham.
But your loser of a hero is desperate to prove he did not lose, so he lies over and over and over again. And his cultists just parrot everything he says.
It's all enough to make ya just wanna hang Mike Pence, nu?
And..... Locked
Quote from: MU82 on June 08, 2021, 10:33:06 PM
There has been scant evidence of pulse-less, multiple-voting, non-citizens in the most recent election cycle.
Indeed, the last U.S. election in which widespread fraud was proven was the 2018 election for the U.S. House seat in North Carolina's 9th District. A Republican operative cheated like hell on behalf of the party's candidate, the result got thrown out (over the objections of your hero, who was wrong again), and a new election had to be held.
The results of the 2020 presidential election were subject to dozens of recounts and contested in dozens upon dozens of courts. The recounts, many done by Republicans, confirmed the results. Numerous judges appointed by your hero, including 3 Supreme Court justices, saw no evidence of pulse-less, multiple-voting, non-citizens. Neither did his lapdog of an attorney general, who two years earlier had lied on your hero's behalf about the Mueller Report. A 5-person election panel in Arizona, which includes 4 Republicans, has called the "audit" going on there a sham.
But your loser of a hero is desperate to prove he did not lose, so he lies over and over and over again. And his cultists just parrot everything he says.
It's all enough to make ya just wanna hang Mike Pence, nu?
The mods ran a poll about shutting down the Covid board because of politics. Don't ruin it for everyone because you can't help yourself.
Sigh ...
Panthers quarterback Sam Darnold shared Wednesday that he is among the players who have not yet been vaccinated.
"I still gotta think about all those certain things that go into it," Darnold said. "Again, it's everyone's choice whether they want to get vaccinated or not. So, that's really all I got on it. I don't want to go too into detail.
" ... I'm just staying by myself right now. I don't have a family or anything like that ... I'm gonna evaluate that on my own and make the best decision that I feel like, again, is the best for myself."
Players that are inoculated only have to get tested for COVID-19 once a week, no longer have to wear masks inside the facility, do not have to quarantine for contact-tracing and will not have any restrictions related to travel.
Those who are not vaccinated still have to test daily, wear masks at the facility, be subject to physical distancing, quarantine after possibly exposure and will have travel restrictions, including not being able to see family and friends on the road.
14 YOS got his 'Fauci Ouchie Dos' yesterday. Body aches, slept 13 hours. Tylenol and hydrating today.
Anyone see the report (from FDA I believe) that was released this morning warning of higher then expected incidents of myocarditis in teen wagers who got the vaccine?
I believe that was the condition that a lot of conferences used to delay/shutdown their seasons last year. Will they do the same this year?
Quote from: tower912 on June 10, 2021, 09:26:39 AM
14 YOS got his 'Fauci Ouchie Dos' yesterday. Body aches, slept 13 hours. Tylenol and hydrating today.
Both of our teen boys got them on Tues. Felt like crap yesterday, but nothing as bad as mom and dad had in terms of side effects.
Quote from: MU82 on June 10, 2021, 07:23:23 AM
Sigh ...
Panthers quarterback Sam Darnold shared Wednesday that he is among the players who have not yet been vaccinated.
"I still gotta think about all those certain things that go into it," Darnold said. "Again, it's everyone's choice whether they want to get vaccinated or not. So, that's really all I got on it. I don't want to go too into detail.
" ... I'm just staying by myself right now. I don't have a family or anything like that ... I'm gonna evaluate that on my own and make the best decision that I feel like, again, is the best for myself."
Players that are inoculated only have to get tested for COVID-19 once a week, no longer have to wear masks inside the facility, do not have to quarantine for contact-tracing and will not have any restrictions related to travel.
Those who are not vaccinated still have to test daily, wear masks at the facility, be subject to physical distancing, quarantine after possibly exposure and will have travel restrictions, including not being able to see family and friends on the road.
Being a good teammate is always about being selfish. ::)
No different than selfish guys like Sogard and Arrieta on the Cubs. The whole team has to follow stricter protocols because of a few nuts. Teammates need to start ostracizing these guys.
Quote from: Jockey on June 10, 2021, 10:33:40 AM
Being a good teammate is always about being selfish. ::)
No different than selfish guys like Sogard and Arrieta on the Cubs. The whole team has to follow stricter protocols because of a few nuts. Teammates need to start ostracizing these guys.
As a Panthers fan, it certainly makes me question our new QB's judgment, decision-making ability and leadership.
When I sent the link to my wife (an RN, and also a Panthers fan), here was her exact response:
Perfect. An idiot at the helm.Couldn't have said it better myself.
Curious about the above reports of Scoop kids with side-effects. Did a parent (or both) have side effects? Wondering if it "runs in the family."
.. Our fam, no one got side effects.
Quote from: Jockey on June 10, 2021, 10:33:40 AM
Being a good teammate is always about being selfish. ::)
No different than selfish guys like Sogard and Arrieta on the Cubs. The whole team has to follow stricter protocols because of a few nuts. Teammates need to start ostracizing these guys.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on June 10, 2021, 05:02:47 PM
Curious about the above reports of Scoop kids with side-effects. Did a parent (or both) have side effects? Wondering if it "runs in the family."
.. Our fam, no one got side effects.
The old lady and I both got hit harder than the kids.
Both boys and my wife had armpit pain. I didn't. Only major difference.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on June 10, 2021, 05:02:47 PM
Curious about the above reports of Scoop kids with side-effects. Did a parent (or both) have side effects? Wondering if it "runs in the family."
.. Our fam, no one got side effects.
My wife was wiped out for a weekend. I have no idea if I had a reaction to the second shot. 14 YOS had one achy, lethargic day.
Quote from: tower912 on June 11, 2021, 05:50:07 AM
My wife was wiped out for a weekend. I have no idea if I had a reaction to the second shot. 14 YOS had one achy, lethargic day.
One kid has a bad few hours, the other nothing.
I had one tired day, wife similar.
I've been told I have a magnetic personality. But maybe it was just the vaccine.
Dr. Tenpenny is claiming there is metal in the vaccine that causes forks to stick to your forehead. She saw videos of it on the internet, you see.
Also promoting the 5G cell phone network vaccine theory.
https://twitter.com/Tylerjoelb/status/1402288748575002632?s=20
And proof!
https://twitter.com/Tylerjoelb/status/1402650496104534016?s=20
Quote from: pbiflyer on June 11, 2021, 09:07:06 AM
I've been told I have a magnetic personality. But maybe it was just the vaccine.
https://twitter.com/Tylerjoelb/status/1402288748575002632?s=20
Untrue on both counts ;D
Quote from: warriorchick on June 11, 2021, 09:08:32 AM
Untrue on both counts ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D >:( ;D ;D ;D ;D
NFL -- and the NFLPA -- getting concerned that misinformed players are delaying or skipping getting vaccine.
Start of article in The Athletic:
With the start of NFL training camps now less than seven weeks away, the relatively slow pace of players to get the COVID-19 vaccination has become one of the league's most pressing issues. And there are real ramifications for individual players and teams as a whole come July.
The NFL won't require players to get the vaccine, while the NFL Players Association continues to say it will encourage it. Soon, though, players will be split into two groups: Those who are vaccinated and those who aren't, and the NFLPA doesn't want to hear those in the latter group say their decision is due to a lack of information.
"We've talked about this now for four months," NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith said Thursday. "Their agents know, their contract advisers know, their financial advisers know. They've got access to team doctors, they've got access to our website, they have access to me, they have access to the folks who were touring and going around to camps now. There really shouldn't be any excuse for not having the answers to the questions that you have."
But this week has revealed just how varied opinions are around the NFL about the vaccine. Carolina Panthers quarterback Sam Darnold told reporters he's not vaccinated. Seahawks cornerback DJ Reed said that he was still "50-50" on his vaccination decision as he seeks more information. Washington defensive end Montez Sweat said he "wasn't a fan" of his team bringing in a public health expert to answer vaccine questions via video conference and that he wanted "more facts."
"I haven't caught COVID yet. I don't see me treating COVID until I actually get COVID," Sweat said Wednesday.
This is sad stuff, but really a reflection of society as a whole.
One more paragraph from the article that I think is spot-on:
NFLPA medical director Thom Mayer said Thursday that when he hears players say they want more information before making a decision about getting the vaccine, he doesn't necessarily think that it's about those players not having the relevant information. He said it's that players are struggling to make a decision between what they might personally want to do, and what the league and coaches are saying they should do.
Entire article, for those with access (and interest):
https://theathletic.com/2645295/2021/06/10/slow-pace-for-nfl-player-vaccination-causes-nflpa-coaches-and-agents-to-push-for-action/?source=dailyemail
Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2021, 09:20:55 AM
Washington defensive end Montez Sweat said he "wasn't a fan" of his team bringing in a public health expert to answer vaccine questions via video conference and that he wanted "more facts."
This is just hilariously stupid.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 11, 2021, 09:38:43 AM
This is just hilariously stupid.
It so is.
"I've never been in a car accident, so I'm not gonna wear my seat belt until after I get in one."
Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2021, 09:58:32 AM
It so is.
"I've never been in a car accident, so I'm not gonna wear my seat belt until after I get in one."
I'm guessing his first football game he didn't wear pads because he hadn't been hit yet?
So he doesn't want to get a vaccine to hopefully prevent Covid until he gets covid, and he wants information but not from a public health expert....
Perhaps the first but if education should be to explain what vaccines are.
Just replace the word COVID with "polio" if you want to see how monumentally fucked up their rationalizations are.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 11, 2021, 09:38:43 AM
This is just hilariously stupid.
These guys weren't in college for their academic skills. You would think that, at the least, a bit of knowledge would leak into their brains while they were in class.
Quote from: Jockey on June 11, 2021, 12:10:36 PM
These guys weren't in college for their academic skills. You would think that, at the least, a bit of knowledge would leak into their brains while they were in class.
Come on. Just because people sometimes say stupid stuff, it doesn't mean they're stupid. I mean, all of us here say stupid stuff sometimes. And badness knows, our well-educated elected officials, with their Ivy League advanced degrees, say incredibly stupid stuff all the time.
And if Sweat does happen to be stupid, it doesn't mean all of "these guys" are stupid.
But yes, it was a stupid thing for Sweat to have said.
I'll venture that Sweat's views on vaccination might be a bellwether for his intelligence.
Quote from: GB Warrior on June 12, 2021, 01:23:11 AM
I'll venture that Sweat's views on vaccination might be a bellwether for his intelligence.
Add Anthony Rizzo to the list. He's waiting for more science. ::)
I remember that he believed in science 100% when he had cancer. But, of course, that was all about him. Now, it is about the people around us. He ain't gonna go out of his way for his teammates.
Quote from: Jockey on June 12, 2021, 12:22:50 PM
Add Anthony Rizzo to the list. He's waiting for more science. ::)
It's amazing to me. If you count the 165,387,602 people that have gotten the vaccine, it has been studied (starting Pfizer phase 1) for about 15 months. No major problems - and certainly has saved lives. Even the cardio stuff they're looking at has been in a very small % of people. Maybe in 10 years we'll figure out we really screwed something up, is that how long these people are going to wait? Probably.
Quote from: Jockey on June 12, 2021, 12:22:50 PM
I remember that he believed in science 100% when he had cancer. But, of course, that was all about him. Now, it is about the people around us. He ain't gonna go out of his way for his teammates.
That's completely uncalled for and not even a remotely comparable situation.
Quote from: Jockey on June 12, 2021, 12:22:50 PM
Add Anthony Rizzo to the list. He's waiting for more science. ::)
I remember that he believed in science 100% when he had cancer. But, of course, that was all about him. Now, it is about the people around us. He ain't gonna go out of his way for his teammates.
Can't take the Florida out of Florida Man.
Definitely not supporting the Rizzo Foundation at the Jewels checkout anymore.
Quote from: Retire0 on June 12, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
Can't take the Florida out of Florida Man.
Definitely not supporting the Rizzo Foundation at the Jewels checkout anymore.
Yea, f all those kids with cancer and their families.
Quote from: JWags85 on June 12, 2021, 03:25:08 PM
Yea, f all those kids with cancer and their families.
I'm more concerned about the vaccine-ready virus that has completely derailed our world that could be eradicated with the help of a Anthony Rizzo. Instead he is a detriment to that.
He can help the cancer kids the most by getting vaccinated and promoting others to do the same.
Rizzo should stop being a detriment to science, vaccinations and ultimately kids with cancer.
Sorry you can't see that.
Quote from: Retire0 on June 12, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
Can't take the Florida out of Florida Man.
Definitely not supporting the Rizzo Foundation at the Jewels checkout anymore.
I'll add $0.10 to my donation and negate your protest.
Quote from: Retire0 on June 12, 2021, 03:29:51 PM
Rizzo should stop being a detriment to science, vaccinations and ultimately kids with cancer.
Sorry you can't see that.
That is a magnificent leap, but go for it. I love how a single vaccine in an incredibly unique scenario is now somehow equivalized to all vaccines, all medical science, and all treatment
I'm vaccinated, I'm not in the camp of fearing it, but I'm also over cancelling anyone and everyone who isn't shouting for vaccines from the rooftop IMMEDIATELY. He is someone with a complicated medical history that you know NOTHING about his conversations with his medical team. He didn't speak poorly of vaccines and only spoke to his personal choice.
He's done more for people with life threading illness, financially and emotionally, than you and I ever will. To wipe that away and deem him some toxic monster is the bullshit black and white hysterical reductivism that this country seems to now thrive on.
Everyone loves screaming about personal responsibility when it fits them. If a grown adult isn't getting vaccinated cause their favorite baseball player or football player isn't, they weren't going to anyways. Especially with how much pro-vaccine marketing and advertising is going on. Claiming otherwise is just an excuse to bag on someone. This isn't some pre-teen choosing to avoid drugs cause a superstar was in an ad campaign.
Quote from: JWags85 on June 12, 2021, 03:39:26 PM
That is a magnificent leap, but go for it. I love how a single vaccine in an incredibly unique scenario is now somehow equivalized to all vaccines, all medical science, and all treatment
I'm vaccinated, I'm not in the camp of fearing it, but I'm also over cancelling anyone and everyone who isn't shouting for vaccines from the rooftop IMMEDIATELY. He is someone with a complicated medical history that you know NOTHING about his conversations with his medical team. He didn't speak poorly of vaccines and only spoke to his personal choice.
He's done more for people with life threading illness, financially and emotionally, than you and I ever will. To wipe that away and deem him some toxic monster is the bullcrap black and white hysterical reductivism that this country seems to now thrive on.
Everyone loves screaming about personal responsibility when it fits them. If a grown adult isn't getting vaccinated cause their favorite baseball player or football player isn't, they weren't going to anyways. Especially with how much pro-vaccine marketing and advertising is going on. Claiming otherwise is just an excuse to bag on someone. This isn't some pre-teen choosing to avoid drugs cause a superstar was in an ad campaign.
Anyone call Rizzo a toxic monster is the huge leap being made here. Probably Arrieta for sure.
If you don't understand how vaccination of the population is the single greatest health crisis right now, not sure what else will lead you there.
Leukemia Society is urging all those 12 and older to get the vaccine. Rizzo could help get the word out that it's safe for those with and recovering form the illness.
Those choosing not to get vaccinated deserved to get bagged. Selfish, detriment to society.
Quote from: JWags85 on June 12, 2021, 03:39:26 PM
He is someone with a complicated medical history that you know NOTHING about his conversations with his medical team. He didn't speak poorly of vaccines and only spoke to his personal choice.
"Given my past medical history, my doctor's recommended against getting the vaccine" would have been the correct answer in that case. But that's not what he said (and likely not what his doctor's said).
But otherwise I agree with you. As "humankind" the best we can do is keep talking people through their concerns and onto the greater good. I'd prefer to have honest conversations with those hesitant, not throw them under the bus
Our family received financial considerations from Anthony Rizzo's foundation. I have a nice letter from his agent as well. Even though we are Sox fans, we are also Anthony Rizzo fans for what he's done for Lurie's and children with blood cancers.
My son is 11, nine months from the 12 - 16 vaccine. The day he's eligible to get a vaccine, he will. That last sentence is both his, and mine.
Quote from: Retire0 on June 12, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
Can't take the Florida out of Florida Man.
Definitely not supporting the Rizzo Foundation at the Jewels checkout anymore.
I can see not buying Rizzo jerseys, not watching the Cubs in person or on TV, calling out Rizzo on interwebs sites, or not supporting Rizzo in any way.
But taking it out on kids with cancer?
You can't possibly separate donating to a foundation fighting childhood cancer with one of the people promoting the foundation? Really?
Quote from: MU82 on June 14, 2021, 07:30:16 AM
I can see not buying Rizzo jerseys, not watching the Cubs in person or on TV, calling out Rizzo on interwebs sites, or not supporting Rizzo in any way.
But taking it out on kids with cancer?
You can't possibly separate donating to a foundation fighting childhood cancer with one of the people promoting the foundation? Really?
Does he profit from his foundation? If so there's other cancer foundations out there, I could see electing to donate to those. If he cornered the market on cancer foundations then withholding is pretty absurd.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 14, 2021, 09:32:33 AM
Does he profit from his foundation? If so there's other cancer foundations out there, I could see electing to donate to those. If he cornered the market on cancer foundations then withholding is pretty absurd.
I like to think he doesn't profit on it, but I don't know. And of course there are a zillion cancer-related charities out there. My wife is heavily involved with one of them.
It just seems an odd stance to take -- "He won't get vaccinated, therefore I'll never give a nickel to his potentially life-saving charity."
Quote from: Galway Eagle on June 14, 2021, 09:32:33 AM
Does he profit from his foundation? If so there's other cancer foundations out there, I could see electing to donate to those. If he cornered the market on cancer foundations then withholding is pretty absurd.
I think the issue of the idea is less "ill write my checks to a different foundation" and more "I'll stop doing this smaller act of goodwill to a great foundation cause I no longer like Rizzo" which is quite sad, IMO.
"Correlation of Biden vote share and adult Covid vaccination rate is now at .847. (CDC data)"
https://twitter.com/smotus/status/1404483957647831046
Perhaps blue states should require voter ID, but your vaccination proof is the only ID accepted.
Get the fucking vaccine morons.
Quote from: JWags85 on June 14, 2021, 10:13:08 AM
I think the issue of the idea is less "ill write my checks to a different foundation" and more "I'll stop doing this smaller act of goodwill to a great foundation cause I no longer like Rizzo" which is quite sad, IMO.
I switched my Amazon Smile from Anthony Rizzo Foundation to American Cancer Society.
I'll write an email to Jewels tonight requesting they switch charities as well.
I have no interest in supporting a foundation of a guy that doesn't grasp science unless it directly effects himself.
Quote from: Retire0 on June 12, 2021, 04:11:22 PM
Anyone call Rizzo a toxic monster is the huge leap being made here. Probably Arrieta for sure.
If you don't understand how vaccination of the population is the single greatest health crisis right now, not sure what else will lead you there.
Leukemia Society is urging all those 12 and older to get the vaccine. Rizzo could help get the word out that it's safe for those with and recovering form the illness.
Those choosing not to get vaccinated deserved to get bagged. Selfish, detriment to society.
My family has been immersed in the world of childhood cancer / blood disorders for the past 35 years. In that time we have met some of the titans in that fight; doctors, researchers, etc. All my conversations with them point "get vaccinated now". I really hope Rizzo will reconsider, he's done an incredible amount of good but he's failing people now.
Our nextdoor neighbor needed to go to the emergency room a week ago and they found an abscess outside her colon. They are treating her with aggressive antibiotics and she's doing better, but she'll be in the hospital for several more days.
Her son and his wife wanted to visit her ... but they can't ... because they're anti-vax idiots, and the hospital requires visitors to show proof of having been vaccinated.
So there's an example of how not getting vaccinated doesn't only affect oneself. That poor woman can't receive a visit from her only son and grandkids because of her son's selfishness.
As someone who was facing major surgery during the peak of the pandemic, the thought of facing it alone, with 4-5 days of recovery was unsettling to say the least.
To have your loved ones essentially voluntarily not show up would be devastating.
Thankfully only minor surgery was required and was out in a day.
Quote from: MU82 on June 20, 2021, 08:46:26 AM
Our nextdoor neighbor needed to go to the emergency room a week ago and they found an abscess outside her colon. They are treating her with aggressive antibiotics and she's doing better, but she'll be in the hospital for several more days.
Her son and his wife wanted to visit her ... but they can't ... because they're anti-vax idiots, and the hospital requires visitors to show proof of having been vaccinated.
So there's an example of how not getting vaccinated doesn't only affect oneself. That poor woman can't receive a visit from her only son and grandkids because of her son's selfishness.
SMH.
I'm hearing anecdotal stories about how when these things are 'fully approved' numerous employers will be going 'required as a condition of employment'. Good.
So frustrating to hear folks quote some side effect that has affected 6 or 8 people out of hundreds of millions. These vaccines are literally miracles. And if and when chick and I need some booster, we'll be right there in line.
Quote from: jsglow on June 21, 2021, 06:57:55 AM
SMH.
I'm hearing anecdotal stories about how when these things are 'fully approved' numerous employers will be going 'required as a condition of employment'. Good.
So frustrating to hear folks quote some side effect that has affected 6 or 8 people out of hundreds of millions. These vaccines are literally miracles. And if and when chick and I need some booster, we'll be right there in line.
Given the reaction by so many to these incredible vaccines, I do worry that participation in boosters will be too low to ward off significant harm by Delta or other variants.
Quote from: jsglow on June 21, 2021, 06:57:55 AM
SMH.
I'm hearing anecdotal stories about how when these things are 'fully approved' numerous employers will be going 'required as a condition of employment'. Good.
So frustrating to hear folks quote some side effect that has affected 6 or 8 people out of hundreds of millions. These vaccines are literally miracles. And if and when chick and I need some booster, we'll be right there in line.
Again, we have a messaging problem. People waiting for "fully approved" have no idea what that even means. It doesn't mean it's safe, that's for sure. As we all know, plenty of drugs become 'fully approved' only to be pulled back months or years later because they weren't as safe as expected. There has never been a drug that has been rolled out this quickly and been this safe. There are hundreds of millions of people that have been protected from Covid by these vaccines. And all it took was society deciding to throw money and resources at the problem. And now we may have a new way to treat a myriad of other diseases including cancer and HIV/AIDS.
When you say they are miracles, you're absolutely right. They're species changing medical miracles.
If we're gonna argue for safety in pharmaceuticals, then we need to go back to the drug makers proving safety instead of shifting that burden to the FDA (that we then decreased budget)
Alas, if only we could get the LatinX population vaccinated....
North Carolina State is out of the Baseball College World Series semifinals after several players tested positive for COVID-19, some with symptoms. (Vaccinated players were not required to due daily testing.)
Other teams had their entire roster, staff, and travel parties vaccinated long ago to avoid this possibility.
When NC State's coach Elliott Avent was asked about why his team wasn't vaccinated long ago, he said,
"If you wanna talk baseball, we can talk baseball. If you wanna talk politics, or stuff like that, you can go talk to my head of sports medicine."
"I don't try to indoctrinate my players with my values, or...my opinions. These are young men who can make their own decisions, and, that's what they did."
Quote from: shoothoops on June 26, 2021, 10:07:49 AM
North Carolina State is out of the Baseball College World Series semifinals after several players tested positive for COVID-19, some with symptoms. (Vaccinated players were not required to due daily testing.)
Other teams had their entire roster, staff, and travel parties vaccinated long ago to avoid this possibility.
When NC State's coach Elliott Avent was asked about why his team wasn't vaccinated long ago, he said,
"If you wanna talk baseball, we can talk baseball. If you wanna talk politics, or stuff like that, you can go talk to my head of sports medicine."
"I don't try to indoctrinate my players with my values, or...my opinions. These are young men who can make their own decisions, and, that's what they did."
They should have been vaccinated but the NCAA should NOT have tested the vaccinated players as close contacts. It's not a surprise they tested positive but weren't sick and aren't spreading the disease with the low amounts they are carrying.
Quote from: shoothoops on June 26, 2021, 10:07:49 AM
When NC State's coach Elliott Avent was asked about why his team wasn't vaccinated long ago, he said,
"If you wanna talk baseball, we can talk baseball. If you wanna talk politics, or stuff like that, you can go talk to my head of sports medicine."
This is exactly why people are still dying.
I'm sure all of the vaccinated guys appreciate those selfish nuts who just destroyed their dream.
Even that liberal stronghold of our democracy, UW-Madison, isn't requiring its students to be vaccinated for the fall semester. What do they know that Fr. Fauci doesn't, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 26, 2021, 11:01:30 AM
Even that liberal stronghold of our democracy, UW-Madison, isn't requiring its students to be vaccinated for the fall semester. What do they know that Fr. Fauci doesn't, hey?
That's because state law has exemptions that are a hole so wide that requiring it doesn't really matter. Better to incentivize through showing students what the unvaccinated can't participate in.
So here's a hypothetical that hearing a legal opinion on would be interesting. Do we have any attorneys on this board? With regards to HIPAA and protected health information, can someone refuse to divulge their covid vaccination status, citing HIPAA? Or more importantly, can a person legally be forced to state their vaccination status, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 26, 2021, 11:39:13 AM
So here's a hypothetical that hearing a legal opinion on would be interesting. Do we have any attorneys on this board? With regards to HIPAA and protected health information, can someone refuse to divulge their covid vaccination status, citing HIPAA? Or more importantly, can a person legally be forced to state their vaccination status, hey?
Neither HIPAA nor FERPA prevent a school from requiring vaccination or asking for that information.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 26, 2021, 11:39:13 AM
So here's a hypothetical that hearing a legal opinion on would be interesting. Do we have any attorneys on this board? With regards to HIPAA and protected health information, can someone refuse to divulge their covid vaccination status, citing HIPAA? Or more importantly, can a person legally be forced to state their vaccination status, hey?
Schools have been requiring vaccination status for decades, what changed?
Quote from: Retire0 on June 26, 2021, 11:48:41 AM
Schools have been requiring vaccination status for decades, what changed?
I know this question is rhetorical... but I want to answer.
My question is not confined to school situations, rather just situations that arise on a daily basis.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 26, 2021, 11:39:13 AM
So here's a hypothetical that hearing a legal opinion on would be interesting. Do we have any attorneys on this board? With regards to HIPAA and protected health information, can someone refuse to divulge their covid vaccination status, citing HIPAA? Or more importantly, can a person legally be forced to state their vaccination status, hey?
Children are forced by the state to divulge their status.
Quote from: shoothoops on June 26, 2021, 10:07:49 AM
North Carolina State is out of the Baseball College World Series semifinals after several players tested positive for COVID-19, some with symptoms. (Vaccinated players were not required to due daily testing.)
Other teams had their entire roster, staff, and travel parties vaccinated long ago to avoid this possibility.
When NC State's coach Elliott Avent was asked about why his team wasn't vaccinated long ago, he said,
"If you wanna talk baseball, we can talk baseball. If you wanna talk politics, or stuff like that, you can go talk to my head of sports medicine."
"I don't try to indoctrinate my players with my values, or...my opinions. These are young men who can make their own decisions, and, that's what they did."
Says all we need to know about the sad state of affairs:
Vaccinations are "politics," and discussing their importance during a global pandemic amounts to "indoctrination."
Quote from: MU82 on June 26, 2021, 03:11:19 PM
Says all we need to know about the sad state of affairs:
Vaccinations are "politics," and discussing their importance during a global pandemic amounts to "indoctrination."
It doesn't help when organizations don't follow the science though.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 26, 2021, 11:57:30 AM
I know this question is rhetorical... but I want to answer.
You know the smart kid the answers all the teachers questions without giving anyone else a turn?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 26, 2021, 12:10:28 PM
My question is not confined to school situations, rather just situations that arise on a daily basis.
No. HIPAA only applies to healthcare organizations and patients would be self-disclosing their status.
Nice summary by a Raleigh columnist on the NC State baseball situation:
The NFL at large figured this out a while ago, if not Sam Darnold: getting your whole team vaccinated is a competitive advantage. In any pro or NCAA sport, getting vaccinated not only restores quality of life, but also buys your way out of most, if not all, protocols if there is a positive test.
Yes, not getting vaccinated against COVID-19 may be a personal choice, but it unquestionably affects others, and you may face discrete and significant consequences for that choice.
N.C. State found that out the hard way. It cost the team a shot at a national title.
Quote from: MU82 on June 27, 2021, 08:22:07 AM
Nice summary by a Raleigh columnist on the NC State baseball situation:
The NFL at large figured this out a while ago, if not Sam Darnold: getting your whole team vaccinated is a competitive advantage. In any pro or NCAA sport, getting vaccinated not only restores quality of life, but also buys your way out of most, if not all, protocols if there is a positive test.
Yes, not getting vaccinated against COVID-19 may be a personal choice, but it unquestionably affects others, and you may face discrete and significant consequences for that choice.
N.C. State found that out the hard way. It cost the team a shot at a national title.
"May" have cost them a shot at a National Title.
Technically, it cost them a shot at the semifinals playing against a better seeded team. They would not have been favored in the semifinals or finals if they made that too. Sure, they had a chance to win both. So did the other teams.
I agree with the rest, and, having full teams vaccinated is what some other teams did first chance they were able to do it. Their opponent lost their best player to COVID-19 a little while, earlier in the season. They had their team vaccinated when it became available. That team is also missing 4 pitchers with year ending injury, and they are missing two field position starters with injury. (But you aren't going to hear much about that with this weekend's story line) Had they played, they wouldn't have been the only team with adversity. But they had a good team they made a strong run later in the season and into the postseason.
This is NC State's coach calling COVID-19 "The Bug," and it gives an example of how their team leaders treated the situation:
https://twitter.com/dylannm17/status/1408866792278200326?s=21
Quote from: MU82 on June 27, 2021, 08:22:07 AM
Nice summary by a Raleigh columnist on the NC State baseball situation:
The NFL at large figured this out a while ago, if not Sam Darnold: getting your whole team vaccinated is a competitive advantage. In any pro or NCAA sport, getting vaccinated not only restores quality of life, but also buys your way out of most, if not all, protocols if there is a positive test.
Yes, not getting vaccinated against COVID-19 may be a personal choice, but it unquestionably affects others, and you may face discrete and significant consequences for that choice.
N.C. State found that out the hard way. It cost the team a shot at a national title.
Weren't the majority of the players who tested positive already vaccinated?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on June 27, 2021, 10:54:52 AM
Weren't the majority of the players who tested positive already vaccinated?
Unvaccinated NC State players contracted COVID-19 and transmitted it to other NC State players. Had NC State had their team get vaccinated long ago, similar to some other teams, they wouldn't be in this position.
This was caused by unvaccinated players on their team.
Also, if you watch the brief video posted above, their coach discusses some of the several players and coaches on their team that have had symptoms.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on June 27, 2021, 10:54:52 AM
Weren't the majority of the players who tested positive already vaccinated?
You're fun.
Quote from: MU82 on June 27, 2021, 09:15:43 PM
You're fun.
He's making a good point. No need to test asymptotic close contacts. Follow the science.
Quote from: MU82 on June 27, 2021, 09:15:43 PM
You're fun.
It was an accurate statement. 4 of the 6 who tested positive were vaccinated from what I've read at least.
To me it would of made a lot more sense to sit the 2 unvaccinated positive players and let the show go on.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on June 27, 2021, 10:47:04 PM
It was an accurate statement. 4 of the 6 who tested positive were vaccinated from what I've read at least.
To me it would of made a lot more sense to sit the 2 unvaccinated positive players and let the show go on.
No. Your statement was inaccurate.
4 unvaccinated players tested positive and all four had symptoms. And, the number of positives was growing past 8. Other players also had symptoms, including before Monday's game and throughout the week.
NC State tried to change the testing process throughout the week. They also tried to reschedule Friday's game by pushing it back to Saturday as a doubleheader. NCAA said no.
https://d1baseball.com/analysis/nc-states-cws-removal-the-timeline-of-events/
Quote from: shoothoops on June 27, 2021, 11:12:07 PM
No. Your statement was inaccurate.
4 unvaccinated players tested positive and all four had symptoms. And, the number of positives was growing past 8. Other players also had symptoms, including before Monday's game and throughout the week.
NC State tried to change the testing process throughout the week. They also tried to reschedule Friday's game by pushing it back to Saturday as a doubleheader. NCAA said no.
https://d1baseball.com/analysis/nc-states-cws-removal-the-timeline-of-events/
Thanks for correction. 4 were vaccinated, 4 were not. So instead of removing the 2 unvaccinated positive players remove the 4 and play on.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on June 27, 2021, 11:19:00 PM
Thanks for correction. 4 were vaccinated, 4 were not. So instead of removing the 2 unvaccinated positive players remove the 4 and play on.
No.
Two NC State player roommates were unvaccinated. Both tested positive, one on Tuesday (the day after their Monday game) the other later in the week. Two additional unvaccinated players tested positive Friday. The numbers of unvaccinated positives were growing. And, earlier in the CWS, their coach referenced additional players that also had symptoms, both before, and during the CWS.
NC State had a chance to have their entire team, coaches, travel party vaccinated long ago, similar to other teams, and didn't.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 27, 2021, 09:19:49 PM
He's making a good point. No need to test asymptotic close contacts. Follow the science.
His point was inaccurate. He desperately wants to believe and promote stuff to support "his side." He often uses factually incorrect data. Then, even when proven incorrect, he shrugs and says, "Well, do it anyway."
Quote from: MU82 on June 28, 2021, 07:01:50 AM
His point was inaccurate. He desperately wants to believe and promote stuff to support "his side." He often uses factually incorrect data. Then, even when proven incorrect, he shrugs and says, "Well, do it anyway."
How ironic.
Areas with low vaccination rates are seeing upticks on COVID-19. It's not "done."
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2021%2F06%2F28%2Fmultimedia%2F28-MORNING-subCASESBYVACC%2F28-MORNING-subCASESBYVACC-articleLarge.png&t=1624881498&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c15-75009a01a000&sig=HHVgbG96tqAIwyFYv7yaIQ--~D)
From the NYT:
One likely explanation is that vaccination rates have risen high enough in some communities to crush the spread of Covid. In the spring, these places were still coping with significant outbreaks, but they aren't anymore.
In Marin County, just over the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco, for instance, more than 90 percent of people aged 12 and above have received at least one shot. As a result, Marin has virtually extinguished the virus, with only three new confirmed cases per day in recent weeks.
A second explanation for the new divergence between more and less vaccinated places is the Delta variant. It appears to be making vaccination even more valuable. The vaccines are effective against Delta, sharply reducing the chances of infection and nearly eliminating any chance of serious illness. For unvaccinated people, however, Delta is significantly more contagious than earlier variants.
Missouri offers the clearest example. Over the past week, it has reported more new Covid cases per capita than any other state, and they are concentrated in rural areas that have low vaccination rates, as Charles Gaba, a health care analyst, has noted. In the parts of the state with high vaccination rates — like the metro areas of Kansas City, St. Louis and Columbia — the number of new cases remains very low.
Get the effen shot.
Quote from: shoothoops on June 27, 2021, 11:45:38 PM
No.
Two NC State player roommates were unvaccinated. Both tested positive, one on Tuesday (the day after their Monday game) the other later in the week. Two additional unvaccinated players tested positive Friday. The numbers of unvaccinated positives were growing. And, earlier in the CWS, their coach referenced additional players that also had symptoms, both before, and during the CWS.
NC State had a chance to have their entire team, coaches, travel party vaccinated long ago, similar to other teams, and didn't.
The link you provided literally said there were 8 positive tests....4 vaccinated and 4 unvaccinated, not sure what's so controversial about that.
And that after the first couple positive tests came through NCAA allowed NC State to play Vandy with their vaccinated players who tested negative, there were 17 of them I believe who were able to play. My argument is they should have been able to continue to play that way, with their vaccinated players.
Quote from: MU82 on June 28, 2021, 07:01:50 AM
His point was inaccurate. He desperately wants to believe and promote stuff to support "his side." He often uses factually incorrect data. Then, even when proven incorrect, he shrugs and says, "Well, do it anyway."
Only if you view literally anything and everything as having partisan sides could you believe this.
Quote from: MU82 on June 28, 2021, 07:06:48 AM
Areas with low vaccination rates are seeing upticks on COVID-19. It's not "done."
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2021%2F06%2F28%2Fmultimedia%2F28-MORNING-subCASESBYVACC%2F28-MORNING-subCASESBYVACC-articleLarge.png&t=1624881498&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c15-75009a01a000&sig=HHVgbG96tqAIwyFYv7yaIQ--~D)
From the NYT:
One likely explanation is that vaccination rates have risen high enough in some communities to crush the spread of Covid. In the spring, these places were still coping with significant outbreaks, but they aren't anymore.
In Marin County, just over the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco, for instance, more than 90 percent of people aged 12 and above have received at least one shot. As a result, Marin has virtually extinguished the virus, with only three new confirmed cases per day in recent weeks.
A second explanation for the new divergence between more and less vaccinated places is the Delta variant. It appears to be making vaccination even more valuable. The vaccines are effective against Delta, sharply reducing the chances of infection and nearly eliminating any chance of serious illness. For unvaccinated people, however, Delta is significantly more contagious than earlier variants.
Missouri offers the clearest example. Over the past week, it has reported more new Covid cases per capita than any other state, and they are concentrated in rural areas that have low vaccination rates, as Charles Gaba, a health care analyst, has noted. In the parts of the state with high vaccination rates — like the metro areas of Kansas City, St. Louis and Columbia — the number of new cases remains very low.
Get the effen shot.
Yep. there is a big difference between KC, Columbia, St. Louis, and, the rest of Missouri. The new strain is prominent in Southwest Missouri (Springfield is the largest city) Ozarks, Branson, Arkansas, and all rural areas outside of there. And Northwest Missouri near Nebraska, Iowa etc...rural Kansas is also a problem. The Mountain West is also struggling with it.
The Governor of Missouri never issued a mask mandate but local major metros did quickly during the pandemic. (Example: St. Louis County Executive is an Anesthesiologist by trade).
This can be said in many major metros. There is a big difference between Washington D.C. and 35 miles away in Loudon, VA or wherever.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on June 28, 2021, 07:19:31 AM
Only if you view literally anything and everything as having partisan sides could you believe this.
No, it's impossible to tell if you're posting dumb stuff because you believe it or because you're trolling. He's just one of the last willing to respond to the dumb stuff.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 28, 2021, 07:49:38 AM
No, it's impossible to tell if you're posting dumb stuff because you believe it or because you're trolling. He's just one of the last willing to respond to the dumb stuff.
Guilty. And you're right, it's not worth it.
Time to go golfin'!
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 28, 2021, 07:49:38 AM
No, it's impossible to tell if you're posting dumb stuff because you believe it or because you're trolling. He's just one of the last willing to respond to the dumb stuff.
Pointing out 4 of the 8 were vaccinated is dumb stuff? Okay dokie
Perfect. Another d-bag comparing vaccine mandates to being like a European Jew during the Holocaust.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/washington-lawmaker-star-david-holocaust-mask-mandate
A Washington lawmaker wore a yellow Star of David, a symbol Nazis forced upon Jews as an identification marker throughout the Holocaust, during a speech in which he railed against vaccine mandates.
State Rep. Jim Walsh, a Republican, placed the star on his shirt as he addressed a crowd of conservative activists at a church basketball gym in Lacey on Saturday, according to the Seattle Times. He did not explicitly refer to the Nazis, the Holocaust, or Adolf Hitler.
The lawmaker posted the video on social media, and in the comments section, when someone asked if it was appropriate for him to be wearing the star, Walsh responded, "It's an echo from history. ... In the current context, we're all Jews."
So, what's next? The non-apology apology, or the doubling and tripling down?
Interesting that it is always republicans who want to channel nazis.
I would like to hear the opinions of some of our Scoopers who are right of center. We do have a handful of the real crazies here, but I am not interested in what they say.
Quote from: Jockey on June 30, 2021, 11:47:34 AM
I would like to hear the opinions of some of our Scoopers who are right of center.
On vaccine mandates or the GOP's behavior?
For the former, let private entities do what they want, but certainly not in favor of government mandated vaccines.
The latter? I am right of center, was involved in GOP politics in my college/early professional years, and it's really shameful what the party has devolved into. I'm a political orphan now. While my views on some issues have shifted left, I'm not a democrat. And frankly don't want to be associated with this GOP. I foresee a lot of write in votes in my future.
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 30, 2021, 12:21:14 PM
On vaccine mandates or the GOP's behavior?
For the former, let private entities do what they want, but certainly not in favor of government mandated vaccines.
The latter? I am right of center, was involved in GOP politics in my college/early professional years, and it's really shameful what the party has devolved into. I'm a political orphan now. While my views on some issues have shifted left, I'm not a democrat. And frankly don't want to be associated with this GOP. I foresee a lot of write in votes in my future.
I feel for you Fan. People like you have been put in a tough position.
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 30, 2021, 12:21:14 PM
On vaccine mandates or the GOP's behavior?
For the former, let private entities do what they want, but certainly not in favor of government mandated vaccines.
The latter? I am right of center, was involved in GOP politics in my college/early professional years, and it's really shameful what the party has devolved into. I'm a political orphan now. While my views on some issues have shifted left, I'm not a democrat. And frankly don't want to be associated with this GOP. I foresee a lot of write in votes in my future.
Pretty spot on. I'm vaccinated, I'm in favor of the vaccine, but I'm not big on government mandated.
As for the rest, I imagine you're a bit older than me, but you've summed up a sizeable millenial faction. I have numerous friends in the 25-35 range like me who lean right, especially on financial and business issues, but are decidedly a left of center on stuff like the environment, LGBTQ and social issues, etc... I've been homeless for awhile. It's incredible frustrating to not want to be associated with the lunatic Bible Belt fringe that is prominent in the GOP, but also have precious little in common with the louder voices on the left and less with my peer demo who enthusiastically supports them
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 30, 2021, 12:21:14 PM
I am right of center, was involved in GOP politics in my college/early professional years, and it's really shameful what the party has devolved into. I'm a political orphan now. While my views on some issues have shifted left, I'm not a democrat. And frankly don't want to be associated with this GOP. I foresee a lot of write in votes in my future.
This describes me to a T.
Quote from: JWags85 on June 30, 2021, 06:42:05 PM
Pretty spot on. I'm vaccinated, I'm in favor of the vaccine, but I'm not big on government mandated.
As for the rest, I imagine you're a bit older than me, but you've summed up a sizeable millenial faction. I have numerous friends in the 25-35 range like me who lean right, especially on financial and business issues, but are decidedly a left of center on stuff like the environment, LGBTQ and social issues, etc... I've been homeless for awhile. It's incredible frustrating to not want to be associated with the lunatic Bible Belt fringe that is prominent in the GOP, but also have precious little in common with the louder voices on the left and less with my peer demo who enthusiastically supports them
You're essentially a New England Republican.
Quote from: warriorchick on July 01, 2021, 12:01:14 PM
Me. too.
So, to you guys - what do you do now?
Reminds me of the dilemma with the Catholic Church. Many people left after the scandal. Many stayed.
Quote from: Jockey on July 01, 2021, 12:48:44 PM
So, to you guys - what do you do now?
Wait for the libertarians to stop being weirdos or a legit third party to emerge?
Not sure, to be honest.
Quote from: Jockey on July 01, 2021, 12:48:44 PM
So, to you guys - what do you do now?
Reminds me of the dilemma with the Catholic Church. Many people left after the scandal. Many stayed.
Similar to MUfan12's thoughts, but also just hoping for the success of moderates, regardless of party. The problem with the 2 party system is this mentality that if you're disgusted by the far right (which I am), then you must gravitate to the other side. And if you don't, regardless of not supporting or voting for the far right, then you're complicit or enabling them.
I'm never gonna ideologically be able to get down with Bernie or Elizabeth Warren or AOC, but at the same time, I'm certainly not going to cheer for MTG or Josh Hawley or other GOP dinosaurs. Its a frustrating place to be, especially when they become loud or prevailing voices in their respective parties.
I completely get the moderate dilemma. I consider myself just left of center. So, two election cycles ago, I was torn between a socialist and a politician whose family and history I detested. If the R's had put up Kasich or Bush, I probably would have voted R. However, when they put up Trump, I had to vote Clinton. Nothing that happened under his watch surprised me based on his history.
If 0 is Bernie and 100 is Q, I rate myself in the low 40's. If I am hearing you guys correctly, you put yourself in the upper 50's, lower 60's. I have little doubt that there is room for us in the same party, or at least room for people like us to sit down in a room and hammer out some decent policy.
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2021, 07:26:12 AM
I completely get the moderate dilemma. I consider myself just left of center. So, two election cycles ago, I was torn between a socialist and a politician whose family and history I detested. If the R's had put up Kasich or Bush, I probably would have voted R. However, when they put up Trump, I had to vote Clinton. Nothing that happened under his watch surprised me based on his history.
If 0 is Bernie and 100 is Q, I rate myself in the low 40's. If I am hearing you guys correctly, you put yourself in the upper 50's, lower 60's. I have little doubt that there is room for us in the same party, or at least room for people like us to sit down in a room and hammer out some decent policy.
The problem is the politics of today, and gerrymandering only heightens this, is that the norm for the parties is about 20 and 80 on your scale.
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2021, 07:26:12 AM
I completely get the moderate dilemma. I consider myself just left of center. So, two election cycles ago, I was torn between a socialist and a politician whose family and history I detested. If the R's had put up Kasich or Bush, I probably would have voted R. However, when they put up Trump, I had to vote Clinton. Nothing that happened under his watch surprised me based on his history.
If 0 is Bernie and 100 is Q, I rate myself in the low 40's. If I am hearing you guys correctly, you put yourself in the upper 50's, lower 60's. I have little doubt that there is room for us in the same party, or at least room for people like us to sit down in a room and hammer out some decent policy.
Clinton is a socialist? Hmmmm.
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2021, 07:26:12 AM
I completely get the moderate dilemma. I consider myself just left of center. So, two election cycles ago, I was torn between a socialist and a politician whose family and history I detested. If the R's had put up Kasich or Bush, I probably would have voted R. However, when they put up Trump, I had to vote Clinton. Nothing that happened under his watch surprised me based on his history.
If 0 is Bernie and 100 is Q, I rate myself in the low 40's. If I am hearing you guys correctly, you put yourself in the upper 50's, lower 60's. I have little doubt that there is room for us in the same party, or at least room for people like us to sit down in a room and hammer out some decent policy.
Our political philosophies are similar, tower. I am a registered Unaffiliated (what NC calls Independents) who is mostly centrist on economic issues and left of center on social issues. I try to vote based on the person, not the party. Though I usually have voted for moderate Dems when given the choice, I have voted for Bush Sr., Reagan, the Republican gubernatorial candidate in NC in 2012, both of Blagojevich's opponents when I lived in Illinois, and many lower-ballot Republicans. I definitely would have voted for Kasich, and I sigh every time I hear him speak now because it's so obvious that he'd have been a significantly better president than the one we got stuck with.
My Republican friends are much like Wags and MUfan - great people who do not like seeing our republic co-opted by a truly horrible man, his cowardly political enablers and his cultish followers.
The good thing is that politics has its ebbs and flos. There have been so many times in my voting lifetime that one party or the other has been written off -- especially the D's after Bush Sr. won and the R's after Obama's second win. Here's hoping Republicans come to their senses and put up a true Republican candidate, one with both great ideas and common decency, in 2024. Given the party leadership's total capitulation to the previous president, however, it's looking unlikely.
Of course, as you and others have noted, gerrymandering makes the problem much deeper at the state levels. Here in NC, Dems and Unaffiliateds each easily outnumber Republicans, but R's were swept into power in 2010, just in time to gerrymander the hell out of the state. It's not quite apartheid, but it is minority rule.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 02, 2021, 08:02:54 AM
Clinton is a socialist? Hmmmm.
Nice. To be clear, I meant 'in the democratic primary.'
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2021, 08:31:03 AM
Nice. To be clear, I meant 'in the democratic primary.'
Sorry, I misunderstood. My bad! And my apologies.
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2021, 07:26:12 AM
If 0 is Bernie and 100 is Q, I rate myself in the low 40's.
The fact that Q is even on the scale is a reflection of how skewed the view of 'conservative' is. I don't agree with many of Bernie's positions but I don't think there's any question that his policies are rooted in what he believes will help the majority of people in the country. You can have a debate on the shortcomings/merits/+ - impacts of those policies.
Q is an insane combination of delusional conspiracy beliefs that politicians use as a grift to further their personal ambitions. There is no debating Q because it's 90% emotion and 10% substance and there is no policy associated with it.
If Q is the equivalent of Bernie I'm like a 5 (everyone needs a little insanity in them). On a Bernie to Mitt Romney scale I'm somewhere in the 50's.
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2021, 07:26:12 AM
I completely get the moderate dilemma. I consider myself just left of center. So, two election cycles ago, I was torn between a socialist and a politician whose family and history I detested. If the R's had put up Kasich or Bush, I probably would have voted R. However, when they put up Trump, I had to vote Clinton. Nothing that happened under his watch surprised me based on his history.
If 0 is Bernie and 100 is Q, I rate myself in the low 40's. If I am hearing you guys correctly, you put yourself in the upper 50's, lower 60's. I have little doubt that there is room for us in the same party, or at least room for people like us to sit down in a room and hammer out some decent policy.
I feel like Norway is 0. I mean Bernie's far left by USA standards but he's just another democratic socialist anywhere else.
Quote from: naginiF on July 02, 2021, 09:18:11 AM
The fact that Q is even on the scale is a reflection of how skewed the view of 'conservative' is. I don't agree with many of Bernie's positions but I don't think there's any question that his policies are rooted in what he believes will help the majority of people in the country. You can have a debate on the shortcomings/merits/+ - impacts of those policies.
Q is an insane combination of delusional conspiracy beliefs that politicians use as a grift to further their personal ambitions. There is no debating Q because it's 90% emotion and 10% substance and there is no policy associated with it.
If Q is the equivalent of Bernie I'm like a 5 (everyone needs a little insanity in them). On a Bernie to Mitt Romney scale I'm somewhere in the 50's.
Outstanding points.
And something like 20% of those who call themselves Republicans also believe Q has merit. It's effen scary.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 02, 2021, 09:10:27 AM
Sorry, I misunderstood. My bad! And my apologies.
We're good. I laughed at you pouncing on my omission.
Here's a good one that I read in this morning's Charlotte Observer ...
At the YMCA of Greater Charlotte, staff balance personal safety with feasibility. The organization recommends that unvaccinated people — more than half the county's population — wear a mask indoors, said Pamela Hempstead, the Y's group exercise and health equity director.
Hempstead, who oversees upward of 20 weekly classes, from spin to water aerobics, said enforcing these guidelines is tricky.
"We are a Christian organization and it would be entirely too messy to ask people to show proof of vaccination," she said.
Dear Christian Scoopers:
Can any of you explain why being Christian would make it "too messy to ask people to show proof of vaccination"?
Do Christian police officers decline to ask drunk driving suspects for license and registration because, well, it would just be too messy?
Do Christian pharmacists just hand out medications to anybody because asking for prescriptions would just be too messy?
Of all the ridiculous things we've all read and heard during the pandemic -- and there have been hundreds, if not thousands -- that might be No. 1.
Easy to explain. Gun toting, capitalism loving white Jesus preaches freedom!!!!!
Quote from: MU82 on July 04, 2021, 06:45:36 AM
Here's a good one that I read in this morning's Charlotte Observer ...
At the YMCA of Greater Charlotte, staff balance personal safety with feasibility. The organization recommends that unvaccinated people — more than half the county's population — wear a mask indoors, said Pamela Hempstead, the Y's group exercise and health equity director.
Hempstead, who oversees upward of 20 weekly classes, from spin to water aerobics, said enforcing these guidelines is tricky.
"We are a Christian organization and it would be entirely too messy to ask people to show proof of vaccination," she said.
Dear Christian Scoopers:
Can any of you explain why being Christian would make it "too messy to ask people to show proof of vaccination"?
Do Christian police officers decline to ask drunk driving suspects for license and registration because, well, it would just be too messy?
Do Christian pharmacists just hand out medications to anybody because asking for prescriptions would just be too messy?
Of all the ridiculous things we've all read and heard during the pandemic -- and there have been hundreds, if not thousands -- that might be No. 1.
Why are asking people on this board? None of us said it. You're a reporter, go and ask the source.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on July 04, 2021, 07:34:31 AM
Why are asking people on this board? None of us said it. You're a reporter, go and ask the source.
Exactly.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on July 04, 2021, 07:34:31 AM
Why are asking people on this board? None of us said it. You're a reporter, go and ask the source.
I thought maybe some Christians here might be able to offer some insight for nonbelievers why it would be "entirely too messy" for employees of a Christian organization "to ask people to show proof of vaccination."
I really wasn't fishing for the kind of snarky response pbiflyer made.
I'll mark you down to as either not willing or not able to discuss the subject. Thanks!
Quote from: MU82 on July 04, 2021, 10:23:46 AM
I thought maybe some Christians here might be able to offer some insight for nonbelievers why it would be "entirely too messy" for employees of a Christian organization "to ask people to show proof of vaccination."
I really wasn't fishing for the kind of snarky response pbiflyer made.
I'll mark you down to as either not willing or not able to discuss the subject. Thanks!
Okay, the real answer is that there is no basis in christianity to claim a reason not to ask. It was a pathetic deflection.
Less snarky, more honest. Better?
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 04, 2021, 08:21:17 PM
Okay, the real answer is that there is no basis in christianity to claim a reason not to ask. It was a pathetic deflection.
Less snarky, more honest. Better?
Yes.
FWIW ... I like snark. I just wasn't fishing for it with my question.
Several L.A. County numbers:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-07-06/california-delta-variant-spread-impact-masks-vaccines
99.8% of COVID-19 deaths since December have been from unvaccinated people.
From the NYT's David Leonhardt:
In many urban and suburban communities, Covid continues to plummet. The rate of new daily cases has fallen below three per 100,000 residents in large cities like Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Minneapolis, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Washington. As a point of comparison, the national rate of new daily cases peaked last winter above 75 per 100,000 people.
But in less populated areas — which tend to be more politically conservative and skeptical of vaccines — the virus is now surging, largely from the contagious Delta variant. The states with the worst outbreaks are Arkansas and Missouri (each with more than 16 new daily cases per 100,000 people) followed by Florida (10), Nevada (10), Wyoming (nine) and Utah (eight).
There is a clear relationship between a state's Covid death rate over the past week and its overall vaccination rate:
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2021%2F07%2F07%2Fmultimedia%2F07-MORNING-subVACCXDEATHS%2F07-MORNING-subVACCXDEATHS-articleLarge.png&t=1625660240&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c2f-8200e601ee00&sig=llMNeNHWl3hUxr9PUOqnRA--~D)
The biggest tragedy is that this situation is avoidable. Highly effective vaccines are available to virtually any American adult who wants one — a privilege that residents of many other countries do not have. Hundreds of U.S. clinics, including in rural communities, offer immediate, walk-in shots.
Still, only 54 percent of adults in rural areas have received at least one vaccine shot, according to the most recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll, compared with 72 percent of urban residents.
"It is the unvaccinated people who are dying," Dr. Thomas Dobbs, Mississippi's state health officer, said, according to the television station WLBT. "The unvaccinated people who are going to the hospital. The unvaccinated people who are getting diagnosed, for the most part."
Tricia Jones, a 45-year-old mother of two in Grain Valley, a small city in western Missouri, did not get the vaccine because she was concerned about the side effects. Her mother had felt sick after getting a shot, and Jones decided to wait. This spring, Jones caught the virus. She was hospitalized May 13 and died June 9.
Marc Johnson, a University of Missouri immunologist, told The Missouri Independent that he expected the state's outbreak to continue worsening for much of July. In some communities, the Delta variant has only recently arrived, suggesting a coming surge.
Despite the rise in caseloads and deaths, many Republican politicians have declined to offer a full-throated call for vaccination. Instead, state legislators in Missouri have warned hospitals not to require employees to get vaccinated. And Gov. Mike Parson has sent mixed messages.
"You're gonna have to take responsibility, to take the vaccine, if you so choose to," Parson said last week. "But you know, I think it's important to understand that there's risk involved."
A few Republican governors have taken a different approach. "We're in a race against this Delta variant," Gov. Asa Hutchinson of Arkansas said on Sunday. "The solution is the vaccinations." Gov. Jim Justice of West Virginia was blunter: Anybody who is not vaccinated, he said, has entered "the death lottery."
Quote from: Galway Eagle on July 02, 2021, 09:30:19 AM
I feel like Norway is 0. I mean Bernie's far left by USA standards but he's just another democratic socialist anywhere else.
That is kind of funny to think about. The CDU/CSU in Germany is a "conservative" party, and they'd be excoriated as commie swine here.
I will get the Pfizer booster when offered.
Quote from: tower912 on July 08, 2021, 08:06:40 PM
I will get the Pfizer booster when offered.
Why? You've been vaccinated and have had covid. People are making decisions on a daily basis without understanding the science. It makes zero sense, hey?
Quote from: tower912 on July 08, 2021, 08:06:40 PM
I will get the Pfizer booster when offered.
Would make more sense to get a titer first.
If titers are even a thing with mRNA vaccines
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 08, 2021, 08:29:44 PM
Why? You've been vaccinated and have had covid. People are making decisions on a daily basis without understanding the science. It makes zero sense, hey?
Pfizer says their vaccine antibodies diminishes over time. Delta is coming. Stupid not to. I've had it. It sucks. I don't want it again.
You need to keep up.
Quote from: tower912 on July 08, 2021, 08:42:58 PM
Pfizer says their vaccine antibodies diminishes over time. Delta is coming. Stupid not to. I've had it. It sucks. I don't want it again.
You need to keep up.
Yep I will get a booster when it's suggested.
Fahrenheit, you likely have immunity having contracted the disease.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 08, 2021, 08:47:36 PM
Fahrenheit, you likely have immunity having contracted the disease.
For now...
Just announced. No booster needed.
https://twitter.com/saraecook/status/1413307740026507269?s=21
Reality is we don't know the long term effects of the disease, nor do we know the long term effects of the vaccine.
Not yet. I have always assumed that there would be an annual booster, similar to a flu shot. I don't consider it that interesting or controversial. But I never felt like was mask was a burden either.
Quote from: tower912 on July 08, 2021, 08:52:56 PM
Not yet. I have always assumed that there would be an annual booster, similar to a flu shot. I don't consider it that interesting or controversial. But I never felt like was mask was a burden either.
I firmly disagree on the last point, but otherwise I agree. Many common vaccines need boosters or annual shots. Not sure why people are stressing about it
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 08, 2021, 08:51:17 PM
Reality is we don't know the long term effects of the disease, nor do we know the long term effects of the vaccine.
There aren't long term effects of the vaccine. That's nonsense.
For a booster, is it the same exact shot? Or tweaked from the initial vaccine? I'm curious from a production standpoint if things will be pretty smooth, especially as demand has dropped. Or if a ramp up will be needed.
I think everyone is getting ahead of themselves. Give it a week or two. We can argue then.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 08, 2021, 08:50:14 PM
Just announced. No booster needed.
https://twitter.com/saraecook/status/1413307740026507269?s=21
Pfizer disagrees:
Pfizer sees waning immunity from its Covid-19 vaccine, says developing new booster.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity-bn/index.html
"As seen in real world data released from the Israel Ministry of Health, vaccine efficacy in preventing both infection and symptomatic disease has declined six months post-vaccination, although efficacy in preventing serious illnesses remains high," the company said in a statement emailed to CNN.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 08, 2021, 09:29:51 PM
Pfizer disagrees:
Pfizer sees waning immunity from its Covid-19 vaccine, says developing new booster.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity-bn/index.html
"As seen in real world data released from the Israel Ministry of Health, vaccine efficacy in preventing both infection and symptomatic disease has declined six months post-vaccination, although efficacy in preventing serious illnesses remains high," the company said in a statement emailed to CNN.
I trust the CDC, FDA and NIH more than Pfizer.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 08, 2021, 09:34:34 PM
I trust the CDC, FDA and NIH more than Pfizer.
In other news, Moderna and J&J agree with Pfizer, hey?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 08, 2021, 09:34:34 PM
I trust the CDC, FDA and NIH more than Pfizer.
At this point, I'm so confused on who we're supposed to trust when.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 08, 2021, 09:34:34 PM
I trust the CDC, FDA and NIH more than Pfizer.
The statement from them indicated that a booster is not needed now, but indicated they are actively testing boosters.
Translation for the lay-person. You will need a booster soon, but one isn't approved, or ready yet, so we will tell you one isn't needed (most have been vaccinated in the past 6-months). This statement will change as soon as boosters are ready.
The real world data in places like Israel clearly shows we will require boosters as soon as they are ready.
Immunity to the Delta variant down to 63%.
Quote from: forgetful on July 08, 2021, 10:33:34 PM
Immunity to the Delta variant down to 63%.
Can you explain this? 63% of the vaccinated population is immune to the variant?
Quote from: forgetful on July 08, 2021, 10:33:34 PM
The statement from them indicated that a booster is not needed now, but indicated they are actively testing boosters.
Translation for the lay-person. You will need a booster soon, but one isn't approved, or ready yet, so we will tell you one isn't needed (most have been vaccinated in the past 6-months). This statement will change as soon as boosters are ready.
The real world data in places like Israel clearly shows we will require boosters as soon as they are ready.
Immunity to the Delta variant down to 63%.
Gotcha
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 08, 2021, 10:23:04 PM
At this point, I'm so confused on who we're supposed to trust when.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 08, 2021, 09:29:51 PM
Pfizer disagrees:
Pfizer sees waning immunity from its Covid-19 vaccine, says developing new booster.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity-bn/index.html
"As seen in real world data released from the Israel Ministry of Health, vaccine efficacy in preventing both infection and symptomatic disease has declined six months post-vaccination, although efficacy in preventing serious illnesses remains high," the company said in a statement emailed to CNN.
Follow the cash
Quote from: JWags85 on July 08, 2021, 10:41:04 PM
Can you explain this? 63% of the vaccinated population is immune to the variant?
The value is calculated as the relative difference in risk between two populations, divided by the risk in the unvaccinated group, or 1-risk ratio.
So if 10% of the unvaccinated population was testing positive, and only 0.5% of the vaccinated the efficacy would be:
(0.10-0.005)/0.10 or 95%. That was the original efficacy. Or equivalently, 1 - (0.5/10)=0.95 (95% fewer cases)
For delta in Israel, right now they are seeing an efficacy of 63%, so if we assume the same 10% rate in unvaccinated, it would imply the risk to the vaccinated is now 3.7%.
Quote from: forgetful on July 09, 2021, 09:41:12 AM
The value is calculated as the relative difference in risk between two populations, divided by the risk in the unvaccinated group, or 1-risk ratio.
So if 10% of the unvaccinated population was testing positive, and only 0.5% of the vaccinated the efficacy would be:
(0.10-0.005)/0.10 or 95%. That was the original efficacy. Or equivalently, 1 - (0.5/10)=0.95 (95% fewer cases)
For delta in Israel, right now they are seeing an efficacy of 63%, so if we assume the same 10% rate in unvaccinated, it would imply the risk to the vaccinated is now 3.7%.
Forgetful - is this calc against a positive test, symptomatic disease or severe disease. My understanding are more people are getting infections, but most are not serious. Still the case in Israel right?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 09, 2021, 09:49:15 AM
Forgetful - is this calc against a positive test, symptomatic disease or severe disease. My understanding are more people are getting infections, but most are not serious. Still the case in Israel right?
This is the calculation in general. The 63% are for active infections. I believe the number for severe cases from the delta-variant is 93% right now. So still very effective on that front.
But remember that a lot of mild cases lead to long term effects and problems.
My guess, and it is only a guess. Is 50% efficacy for active infections is the breaking point where you will see the CDC/FDA etc. advocate for boosters.
The companies are looking at different types of boosters right now:
1) Simply another dose.
2) An equivalent dose, but using mRNA that codes for an active variant.
3) A new type of dose that uses RNA that encodes for the entire spike protein instead of just the portion being used in current vaccines.
Of these, 1 is the easiest. My guess, Pfizer/Moderna could get that approved in a month. 2 is also easy, but since it is a new formulation (technically), slightly longer. In all honesty, 3 I'm a bit wary of. I'd like to pour over the data on that guy before lining up.
Quote from: forgetful on July 08, 2021, 10:33:34 PM
The statement from them indicated that a booster is not needed now, but indicated they are actively testing boosters.
Translation for the lay-person. You will need a booster soon, but one isn't approved, or ready yet, so we will tell you one isn't needed (most have been vaccinated in the past 6-months). This statement will change as soon as boosters are ready.
The real world data in places like Israel clearly shows we will require boosters as soon as they are ready.
Immunity to the Delta variant down to 63%.
Sultan doesn't really put things in context.
Seriously, though, I actually have a friend who is in the test group for the booster shot. He also had been in the test group for the original Pfizer vaccine, having received his last August.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on May 09, 2021, 12:10:25 PM
Things move indoors for the summer in the deep South. That's why their cases really climbed at the end of June last year. The South is behind on vaccinations so far so we should have an early test.
Cases up 45% week over week in the US (highest since mid-May, so nothing crazy). Vaccinations are way down, lowest weekly shots since early January.
States that are struggling with a big >80% rise in new cases?
Arkansas, Missouri, Florida, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi
Of that group only Florida has above 40% of their population vaccinated, yet 67.5% of American adults have at least one shot.
surprisedPikachu.jpg
No surprise. The best defense is viewed with skepticism and plagued by lies on the internet. Nowhere near herd immunity.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 11, 2021, 10:48:31 AM
Cases up 45% week over week in the US (highest since mid-May, so nothing crazy). Vaccinations are way down, lowest weekly shots since early January.
States that are struggling with a big >80% rise in new cases?
Arkansas, Missouri, Florida, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi
Of that group only Florida has above 40% of their population vaccinated, yet 67.5% of American adults have at least one shot.
surprisedPikachu.jpg
That's SEC Country. It just means more
Newsmax host says vaccines are against nature, and some diseases are supposed to wipe out parts of the population.
I mean, it's literally a death cult at this point.
https://theweek.com/news/1002522/newsmax-host-suggests-vaccines-are-against-nature-because-some-diseases-are-supposed
Quote from: Pakuni on July 12, 2021, 03:13:33 PM
Newsmax host says vaccines are against nature, and some diseases are supposed to wipe out parts of the population.
I mean, it's literally a death cult at this point.
https://theweek.com/news/1002522/newsmax-host-suggests-vaccines-are-against-nature-because-some-diseases-are-supposed
That what I've been saying. At CPAC over the weekend, they were thunderously cheering every anti-vaxxer message.
Thankfully, they are killing their own people.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 12, 2021, 03:13:33 PM
Newsmax host says vaccines are against nature, and some diseases are supposed to wipe out parts of the population.
I mean, it's literally a death cult at this point.
https://theweek.com/news/1002522/newsmax-host-suggests-vaccines-are-against-nature-because-some-diseases-are-supposed
The best thing for this planet would be for humans to die off. I bet he's an evangelical tree hugger at heart.
"Save the whales, kill all humans!"
Quote from: Jockey on July 12, 2021, 04:46:07 PM
That what I've been saying. At CPAC over the weekend, they were thunderously cheering every anti-vaxxer message.
Thankfully, they are killing their own people.
While simultaneously heaping praise on Trump for, apparently, single-handedly creating the vaccine...which they refuse to take.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 12, 2021, 05:20:15 PM
The best thing for this planet would be for humans to die off.
Sounds like Thanos.
Of course, he'd be a cultist, worshiping You Know Who.
Quote from: MU82 on July 12, 2021, 07:18:17 PM
Sounds like Thanos.
Of course, he'd be a cultist, worshiping You Know Who.
Or see Dan Brown's book and movie,
Inferno .
On numerous occasions during the T-PAC conference over the weekend, attendees cheered enthusiastically anytime one of the many anti-vaxxer speakers criticized the vaccines.
Quote from: MU82 on July 12, 2021, 10:37:50 PM
On numerous occasions during the T-PAC conference over the weekend, attendees cheered enthusiastically anytime one of the many anti-vaxxer speakers criticized the vaccines.
I think that is what I said.
Quote from: Jockey on July 12, 2021, 10:41:01 PM
I think that is what I said.
Sorry. Somehow missed that earlier. My bad.
Death Cult.
Tennessee abandons vaccine outreach to minors — not just for COVID-19
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-halts-all-vaccine-outreach-minors-not-just-covid-19/7928701002/
"The Tennessee Department of Health will halt all adolescent vaccine outreach – not just for coronavirus, but all diseases – amid pressure from Republican state lawmakers, according to an internal report and agency emails obtained by the Tennessean. If the health department must issue any information about vaccines, staff are instructed to strip the agency logo off the documents.
"Decisions to ratchet back outreach comes amid pressure from conservative lawmakers, who have embraced misinformation about the coronavirus vaccine, said Dr. Michelle Fiscus, Tennessee's former top vaccine official.
Fiscus was fired without explanation on Monday. Fiscus said she was scapegoated to appease lawmakers, who had described routine vaccine outreach as "reprehensible."
This rush to stake out ever more extreme positions is not going to end well.
Wow, that's absolutely crazy stuff, TS!
Here's a Charlotte Observer article about an otherwise healthy 26-year-old firefighter who didn't think he needed the vaccine. He got COVID-19 in May and it almost killed him -- was in a coma and was hospitalized for 6 weeks.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article252727513.html?
"I never thought it would happen to me. I was hard-headed. I was thinking: I'm young .... It hit me harder than it hit anybody else I know. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy."
Norwegian Cruise Lines wants to require passengers to show proof that they have had the COVID-19 vaccine. It's common sense for an industry that, basically, is huge, floating petri dishes.
But the "pro-business, hands-off, small-government" GOP in Florida passed a law taking this power away from businesses in the state.
Norwegian is suing.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3714950-norwegian-cruise-line-sues-florida-official-over-vaccine-proof
The company claims the ban restricts the flow of information - i.e., vaccine documentation - and thus inhibits freedom of speech, and disrupts the flow of interstate and international commerce, which is regulated only by the U.S. Congress.
Glad it's all over.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/really-surprising-vaccinated-chicago-man-who-got-covid-after-vacation-warns-others/2555320/
https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-vaccine-breakthrough-infection-delta-variant-fully-vaccinated-las-vegas-2021-7
Quote from: Galway Eagle on July 15, 2021, 12:24:07 PM
Glad it's all over.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/really-surprising-vaccinated-chicago-man-who-got-covid-after-vacation-warns-others/2555320/
https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-vaccine-breakthrough-infection-delta-variant-fully-vaccinated-las-vegas-2021-7
I'm not directing this at you personally, GE, so please don't take it that way. ;D
Something like 99.6% of all hospitalizations in the US from Covid are from the unvaccinated. You can't cite stories like this as though they are common. They're wildly rare, but they get people riled up and drive clicks. So they accomplish their goal.
If you're vaccinated, stop worrying.
And if the goal here is to make people feel bad about being unvaccinated, I'm sure they've gotten that message for the last four months. Beating them over their heads with information, facts and the like isn't going to work. These folks are entrenched in their illogical beliefs, and there is really no helping them.
We can encourage people to continue to get vaccinated, but my guess is that there is massive diminishing returns from doing that. Furthermore, we can worry about a new variant spreading in the US from the unvaccinated, but until the rest of the world has access to the vaccines is isn't something to worry about. Our society needs to stop thinking that imaginary borders stop the spread of the virus. If another variant pops up across the globe, it will inevitably spread to the US despite our efforts.
Basically, just worry about yourself and your family getting vaccinated, and then you have nothing to really worry about (statistically speaking). You can't control all of society, so don't worry about it.
Spot on. We knew from the start that the vaccines were approximately 95%+ effective. That is why we hear the alarmist tales. The reason they dribble out one at a time is because they are rare.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 15, 2021, 12:35:02 PM
I'm not directing this at you personally, GE, so please don't take it that way. ;D
Something like 99.6% of all hospitalizations in the US from Covid are from the unvaccinated. You can't cite stories like this as though they are common. They're wildly rare, but they get people riled up and drive clicks. So they accomplish their goal.
If you're vaccinated, stop worrying.
And if the goal here is to make people feel bad about being unvaccinated, I'm sure they've gotten that message for the last four months. Beating them over their heads with information, facts and the like isn't going to work. These folks are entrenched in their illogical beliefs, and there is really no helping them.
We can encourage people to continue to get vaccinated, but my guess is that there is massive diminishing returns from doing that. Furthermore, we can worry about a new variant spreading in the US from the unvaccinated, but until the rest of the world has access to the vaccines is isn't something to worry about. Our society needs to stop thinking that imaginary borders stop the spread of the virus. If another variant pops up across the globe, it will inevitably spread to the US despite our efforts.
Basically, just worry about yourself and your family getting vaccinated, and then you have nothing to really worry about (statistically speaking). You can't control all of society, so don't worry about it.
Yeah I'm not worrying, I'm going to St. Louis this weekend, traveled to a large wedding in Minneapolis, visited Denver all since getting my vaccine. But stats mean nothing to the individual and given nobody believed my anecdotal evidence about my sister and brother in law getting it after being vaccinated I decided to post more instances to get a certain someone to STFU.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 15, 2021, 12:35:02 PM
I'm not directing this at you personally, GE, so please don't take it that way. ;D
Something like 99.6% of all hospitalizations in the US from Covid are from the unvaccinated. You can't cite stories like this as though they are common. They're wildly rare, but they get people riled up and drive clicks. So they accomplish their goal.
If you're vaccinated, stop worrying.
And if the goal here is to make people feel bad about being unvaccinated, I'm sure they've gotten that message for the last four months. Beating them over their heads with information, facts and the like isn't going to work. These folks are entrenched in their illogical beliefs, and there is really no helping them.
We can encourage people to continue to get vaccinated, but my guess is that there is massive diminishing returns from doing that. Furthermore, we can worry about a new variant spreading in the US from the unvaccinated, but until the rest of the world has access to the vaccines is isn't something to worry about. Our society needs to stop thinking that imaginary borders stop the spread of the virus. If another variant pops up across the globe, it will inevitably spread to the US despite our efforts.
Basically, just worry about yourself and your family getting vaccinated, and then you have nothing to really worry about (statistically speaking). You can't control all of society, so don't worry about it.
Bang on. Its news blurbs that ignite the unique intersection of anti-vaxxers and panicked doomers who miss being able to breathlessly spaz over each COVID mania headline of mid 2020, obviously for different reasons.
And if you want to mock some "its over" people. Ive had a half dozen people I work with in India say Covid is done and its an after thought there :o....while also saying they expect to wear masks into Spring 2022
Its over for the vaccinated, unless you continue to drink the government's kool-aid, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 16, 2021, 10:06:55 AM
Its over for the vaccinated, unless you continue to drink the government's kool-aid, hey?
The government is doing their job. This is still a pandemic, despite your selfishness. Too many unvaccinated returned to normal life, too many unvaccinated will die.
Schools will return with return in the Fall, maskless. This is a large looming petri dish for children under 12.
How is 4ever being "selfish."
Speaking of India, I just had a friend there tell me he's unsure about a trip to the US for a conference in late August. He's waiting to see if he'll have his second dose in time. He got his first back in late May but they are requiring EIGHT FOUR DAYS, yes 84 days, in between doses, presumably due to availability. Just astounding. And this is a guy who is from a very notable family and helps run a sizeable business and thus could pull strings if there was a way.
France:
https://twitter.com/redouad/status/1415286691615678471?s=21
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 16, 2021, 10:06:55 AM
Its over for the vaccinated, unless you continue to drink the government's kool-aid, hey?
I agree with the first part. The head of the CDC said the same thing today. So not sure where the second part is coming from.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on July 16, 2021, 01:03:24 PM
I agree with the first part. The head of the CDC said the same thing today. So not sure where the second part is coming from.
Not to justify the insanity, but places like LA County putting in mask mandates regardless of vaccine status would probably lead one to a conclusion like that, albeit not as hysterical.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 16, 2021, 12:29:59 PM
Speaking of India, I just had a friend there tell me he's unsure about a trip to the US for a conference in late August. He's waiting to see if he'll have his second dose in time. He got his first back in late May but they are requiring EIGHT FOUR DAYS, yes 84 days, in between doses, presumably due to availability. Just astounding. And this is a guy who is from a very notable family and helps run a sizeable business and thus could pull strings if there was a way.
Astra Zeneca vaccine or India one may be like this?
Delta outbreaks in North Carolina's largest county, mostly among young and unvaccinated.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article252827353.html?
Mecklenburg County has seen at least one outbreak of the highly contagious delta variant of COVID-19, including cases at a local homeless shelter, Deputy Health Director Dr. Raynard Washington told reporters Friday.
At least five cases of a COVID-19 outbreak at the Salvation Army Center of Hope, an emergency shelter for women and children, have been confirmed to be delta variant cases, Washington said.
That shelter has had 30 cases among residents, a data release from the county showed as of Wednesday. Just eight of those cases were sent for delta testing. No deaths have been reported in that outbreak.
The delta variant of COVID-19 is a strain of the coronavirus first identified in India that may be more transmissible than the original strain, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The county has partnered with StarMed Healthcare and UNC Charlotte to genetically sequence COVID-19 tests for the delta variant in Mecklenburg, surveillance that has previously not been available at the county level, Washington said.
Most new COVID-19 cases in Mecklenburg are among people who are not vaccinated, County Public Health Director Gibbie Harris said. And COVID-19 cases are increasing in Mecklenburg, especially in young people.
"All of our numbers are going in the wrong direction," Harris said Friday.
About 71% of COVID-19 cases in the past week have occurred in people younger than 30, Harris said, a dramatic change from the early days of the pandemic when the majority of cases occurred in senior adults. And a quarter of Mecklenburg cases have occurred in people younger than 20, she said.
Fewer than 8% of Mecklenburg cases in the past week have occurred in people age 65 and older, Harris said. That's because that age group is the most vaccinated population in the country, she said.
"We always ask, what will be the last straw? What will be the moment that we lose the ability to communicate and cooperate and get things done?" said Frank Luntz, a longtime GOP pollster who's been working to encourage vaccinations. "Well, we've reached it. This is it."
He added, "Now decisions are being made not because of evidence or facts or statistics, but strictly on political lines. And now people are going to die."
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 16, 2021, 02:46:42 PM
Astra Zeneca vaccine or India one may be like this?
Astra Zeneca. Experiences vary for the domestic one. Another associate had to wait a month between doses for the Indian vaccine.
Quote from: Retire0 on July 16, 2021, 12:23:54 PM
The government is doing their job. This is still a pandemic, despite your selfishness. Too many unvaccinated returned to normal life, too many unvaccinated will die.
Schools will return with return in the Fall, maskless. This is a large looming petri dish for children under 12.
why is 4ever selfish? he's been vaccinated and follows osha safe practice standards
as for for hysteria regarding children under 12? please listen to the real experts and not those fb/wh approve of
"Our findings show children under 12 to 14 years appear significantly less likely to contract COVID-19 from infected others."
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-09-largest-children-significantly-covid-.html
10 months old. Pre delta variant.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 16, 2021, 06:14:00 PM
Astra Zeneca. Experiences vary for the domestic one. Another associate had to wait a month between doses for the Indian vaccine.
My nother-in-law got AZ in Poland and had to wait 8 weeks between doses because thats what was recommended. Our friend in Canada got AZ for first dose and Pfizer for a second.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 16, 2021, 07:26:39 PM
why is 4ever selfish? he's been vaccinated and follows osha safe practice standards
as for for hysteria regarding children under 12? please listen to the real experts and not those fb/wh approve of
"Our findings show children under 12 to 14 years appear significantly less likely to contract COVID-19 from infected others."
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-09-largest-children-significantly-covid-.html
My wife is a pediatric RN. Yesterday, she saw an 8-year-old with COVID-19 who was having significant problems. He caught it from relatives who have refused to get vaccinated.
Don't ALL lives matter? What responsibility do his anti-vax parents bear for this? Is it OK that the child suffers because his adult family members are taking advantage of their "freedom"?
Also, why do many of the same people who sing the praises of the previous president's work to get vaccines out quickly now actively undermine the vaccination process?
Thanks!
Quote from: MU82 on July 17, 2021, 07:57:23 AM
My wife is a pediatric RN. Yesterday, she saw an 8-year-old with COVID-19 who was having significant problems. He caught it from relatives who have refused to get vaccinated.
Don't ALL lives matter? What responsibility do his anti-vax parents bear for this? Is it OK that the child suffers because his adult family members are taking advantage of their "freedom"?
Also, why do many of the same people who sing the praises of the previous president's work to get vaccines out quickly now actively undermine the vaccination process?
Thanks!
I don't believe that rocket is arguing against vaccines.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 17, 2021, 07:59:33 AM
I don't believe that rocket is arguing against vaccines.
He's arguing that kids don't get COVID-19.
And he enthusiastically supports those who do to argue against vaccines -- including people who actually actively undermine the vaccination process. Watching CPAC, that looks like a significant percentage of the GOP, including the ex-president's own family members.
rocket's a big boy. Please let him speak for himself.
Quote from: MU82 on July 17, 2021, 08:05:36 AM
He's arguing that kids don't get COVID-19.
No he isn't. You're being intellectually dishonest again.
Quote from: MU82 on July 17, 2021, 07:57:23 AM
My wife is a pediatric RN. Yesterday, she saw an 8-year-old with COVID-19 who was having significant problems. He caught it from relatives who have refused to get vaccinated.
Don't ALL lives matter? What responsibility do his anti-vax parents bear for this? Is it OK that the child suffers because his adult family members are taking advantage of their "freedom"?
Also, why do many of the same people who sing the praises of the previous president's work to get vaccines out quickly now actively undermine the vaccination process?
Thanks!
Look, ya can't make ignorant people smart. All that can be done is to take care of your house and the pieces will fall where they may. Irreparable harm occurs everyday that we continue to carry on with all these safe covid practices. Get your vaccination and go on like its March 9, 2020, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 17, 2021, 08:58:33 AM
Look, ya can't make ignorant people smart. All that can be done is to take care of your house and the pieces will fall where they may. Irreparable harm occurs everyday that we continue to carry on with all these safe covid practices. Get your vaccination and go on like its March 9, 2020, hey?
I agree with your vax take but there isn't irreparable harm occurring. Just terribly annoying and unnecessary.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 17, 2021, 08:18:06 AM
No he isn't. You're being intellectually dishonest again.
This is intellectually dishonest from you, and not your first such post today. But rocket is lucky to suddenly have you as a spokesperson.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 17, 2021, 08:58:33 AM
All that can be done is to take care of your house and the pieces will fall where they may.
Excellent. I will look forward to this same take from you when it comes to women's reproductive rights and a variety of other issues.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 17, 2021, 10:01:11 AM
I agree with your vax take but there isn't irreparable harm occurring. Just terribly annoying and unnecessary.
I'm referring to the financial damage done to businesses plus the psychological havoc on the young and elderly, hey?
Big local stories.
868 COVID deaths
In 2020...
63 suicides (A total of 3 mentioned the pandemic as a contributing factor) Fewer than 2019
121 Overdose deaths. 12 more than 2019
Nationwide, suicides down by 5% in 2020 compared to 2019.
COVID still winning.
Quote from: MU82 on July 17, 2021, 10:02:40 AM
This is intellectually dishonest from you, and not your first such post today. But rocket is lucky to suddenly have you as a spokesperson.
BS. You said that rocket claimed that kids don't get Covid. He never said that. Stop lying.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 17, 2021, 10:36:07 AM
BS. You said that rocket claimed that kids don't get Covid. He never said that. Stop lying.
Intellectually dishonest of you, Scoop Police. Again.
Quote from: MU82 on July 17, 2021, 10:58:08 AM
Intellectually dishonest of you, Scoop Police. Again.
Lol. Since you can't really point how how your lies are intellectually dishonest on my end, and resort to labeling me in the process, I'll take this post as the equivalent of a white flag.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 17, 2021, 11:09:12 AM
Lol. Since you can't really point how how your lies are intellectually dishonest on my end, and resort to labeling me in the process, I'll take this post as the equivalent of a white flag.
My post was to rocket. You apparently believe he is incapable of reading and, if warranted, challenging what I said. So you resort to name-calling and intellectual dishonesty.
Because ...
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DevotedUnsteadyBluefish-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: MU82 on July 17, 2021, 11:36:37 AM
My post was to rocket. You apparently believe he is incapable of reading and, if warranted, challenging what I said. So you resort to name-calling and intellectual dishonesty.
Because ...
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DevotedUnsteadyBluefish-size_restricted.gif)
If you don't want others to respond, PM him. And stop lying.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 17, 2021, 11:56:43 AM
If you don't want others to respond, PM him. And stop lying.
Are you the new mod? Hopefully no one here takes anything you say seriously. You've become the stereotype know-it-all.
Infightin' amongst da woke...priceless. Hate has know home heer, aina?
They do need to get a room.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 17, 2021, 12:36:38 PM
Infightin' amongst da woke...priceless. Hate has know home heer, aina?
Big tent, bro'.
We'll even let you in :)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 17, 2021, 07:59:33 AM
I don't believe that rocket is arguing against vaccines.
just got back from day 2 of our golf club's president's cup and catching up...hey fluff, regardless of what they say about you...thanks for the truth!
you are right on both accounts-i am vaccinated, but respect those who are afraid, skeptical or allergic to gubmint computer chips or whatever. people have a right to their own body and it's between their doctor and them.
kids can get covid however less likely but also less symptomatic, less contagious, next to nil morbidity AND making them wear masks is not only less effective(or no effect) but abuse nonetheless
and 82 claims to be an umpire? better check the right boxes to play in front of him
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 17, 2021, 02:42:08 PM
just got back from day 2 of our golf club's president's cup and catching up...hey fluff, regardless of what they say about you...thanks for the truth!
you are right on both accounts-i am vaccinated, but respect those who are afraid, skeptical or allergic to gubmint computer chips or whatever. people have a right to their own body and it's between their doctor and them.
kids can get covid however less likely but also less symptomatic, less contagious, next to nil morbidity AND making them wear masks is not only less effective(or no effect) but abuse nonetheless
and 82 claims to be an umpire? better check the right boxes to play in front of him
Yup
How about their hair choices?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 17, 2021, 02:42:08 PM
just got back from day 2 of our golf club's president's cup and catching up...hey fluff, regardless of what they say about you...thanks for the truth!
you are right on both accounts-i am vaccinated, but respect those who are afraid, skeptical or allergic to gubmint computer chips or whatever. people have a right to their own body and it's between their doctor and them.
kids can get covid however less likely but also less symptomatic, less contagious, next to nil morbidity AND making them wear masks is not only less effective(or no effect) but abuse nonetheless
and 82 claims to be an umpire? better check the right boxes to play in front of him
Rocket, make that, "check the left boxes," hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 17, 2021, 03:14:04 PM
Yup
Good to see that people on the right are starting to fully accept abortion rights.
Quote from: Jockey on July 17, 2021, 12:32:03 PM
Are you the new mod? Hopefully no one here takes anything you say seriously. You've become the stereotype know-it-all.
Oh my God. Irony abounds.
December:
Libs won't give Trump credit for inventing vaccines! Biden won't give him credit! Harris won't give him credit! Pelosi won't give him credit! The lamestream media won't give him credit! Trump saved America by inventing vaccines!
July:
Who the hell does Biden think he is, pushing us to get these vaccines?!?! These vaccines are a plot by Gates, Soros and Zuckerberg to control us! These vaccines are the real killers, way worse than the China Virus! Ain't nobody making me get no Fauci Ouchie! Freedom!!!!
Nads, maybe just concentrate on yo backswing. Herd dat kneeds summ werk, aina?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 17, 2021, 02:42:08 PM
just got back from day 2 of our golf club's president's cup and catching up...hey fluff, regardless of what they say about you...thanks for the truth!
you are right on both accounts-i am vaccinated, but respect those who are afraid, skeptical or allergic to gubmint computer chips or whatever. people have a right to their own body and it's between their doctor and them.
kids can get covid however less likely but also less symptomatic, less contagious, next to nil morbidity AND making them wear masks is not only less effective(or no effect) but abuse nonetheless
and 82 claims to be an umpire? better check the right boxes to play in front of him
Thanks for taking the time to answer, even if we disagree on some of this stuff.
As a couple others have said, nice to see you so strongly support a woman's right to control her own body, and I assume you'll be voting against all politicians who want to take away those rights.
Not even sure what your last line means, but whatevs.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 17, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
Nads, maybe just concentrate on yo backswing. Herd dat kneeds summ werk, aina?
Damn, poetic as Maya Angelo.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 17, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
Nads, maybe just concentrate on yo backswing. Herd dat kneeds summ werk, aina?
Backswing ... follow-through ... putting ... pitching ... chipping ... it all needs work. Especially effen chipping, the bane of my golf existence.
Of course, the message in my previous post is indisputably true -- bazillions of the same people who bragged about Operation Warp Speed now refuse to take the vaccines for idiot, selfish, and often political reasons. And in some cases, their own family members, including kids, suffer the consequences.
But no, I haven't broken 90 yet this season, dammit. Thanks for your concern!
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 17, 2021, 02:42:08 PM
just got back from day 2 of our golf club's president's cup and catching up...hey fluff, regardless of what they say about you...thanks for the truth!
you are right on both accounts-i am vaccinated, but respect those who are afraid, skeptical or allergic to gubmint computer chips or whatever. people have a right to their own body and it's between their doctor and them.
kids can get covid however less likely but also less symptomatic, less contagious, next to nil morbidity AND making them wear masks is not only less effective(or no effect) but abuse nonetheless
and 82 claims to be an umpire? better check the right boxes to play in front of him
I was today years old when I found out I was an abusive parent because I have my six year old wear a mask in certain situations.
Quote from: reinko on July 18, 2021, 08:41:58 AM
I was today years old when I found out I was an abusive parent because I have my six year old wear a mask in certain situations.
Even when I compliment the guy, he says something dumb.
Quote from: reinko on July 18, 2021, 08:41:58 AM
I was today years old when I found out I was an abusive parent because I have my six year old wear a mask in certain situations.
Rocket: I'm a free thinker
Also Rocket: Here's one of Laura Ingram's dumbest takes ever
Our youngest sons school,Toddler - 8, is considering masks for grades 1-8 with the only exception being proof of vaccination if you child is 12+....remote learning available for those who are not comfortable. I live in a community of child abusers and enablers of child abuse.
As an aside, our eldests HS is taking a similar approach, proof of vaccination or your son wears a mask (and you sign a waiver saying you are ignoring health recommendations). I imagine the peer pressure for teenagers (down to 7th grade) will close the gap between "would've been vaccinated anyway" and 99+%.
I admire the efforts of Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson to try to reach some of his state's scores of anti-vaxxers.
https://apnews.com/article/arkansas-governor-hutchinson-covid-vaccine-hesitancy-09cadd2e75ddd5a4c0758b2cb1b6cbfd
He's a staunch Republican, and he's telling his constituents: "You don't have to trust the federal government. You don't have to like Biden, Harris or anything the Dems do. But trust the science; get vaccinated."
Not sure how many people he'll convince, but I'm glad he's trying and I wish more southern governors would do the same.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 17, 2021, 02:42:08 PM
just got back from day 2 of our golf club's president's cup and catching up...hey fluff, regardless of what they say about you...thanks for the truth!
you are right on both accounts-i am vaccinated, but respect those who are afraid, skeptical or allergic to gubmint computer chips or whatever. people have a right to their own body and it's between their doctor and them.
kids can get covid however less likely but also less symptomatic, less contagious, next to nil morbidity AND making them wear masks is not only less effective(or no effect) but abuse nonetheless
and 82 claims to be an umpire? better check the right boxes to play in front of him
Arrest me now, since I force my kids to wear bike helmets, seat belts and life vests on a boat.
My worry is that the virus continues to mutate, making it much worse for children. It hasn't happened yet. The hope is that people get vaccinated, so the virus doesn't have the ability to do that and it burns out. That's why I would like everyone to get vaccinated.
Quote from: MUDPT on July 18, 2021, 11:14:15 AM
Arrest me now, since I force my kids to wear bike helmets, seat belts and life vests on a boat.
My worry is that the virus continues to mutate, making it much worse for children. It hasn't happened yet. The hope is that people get vaccinated, so the virus doesn't have the ability to do that and it burns out. That's why I would like everyone to get vaccinated.
comparing apples and clothing optional beaches yo. helmits, life vests and seat belts always good...so are parachutes, and covering your mouth when ya sneeze and/or cough, but i digress
follow the science, not your worries. get yourself vaccinated and live
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 18, 2021, 11:28:13 AM
comparing apples and clothing optional beaches yo. helmits, life vests and seat belts always good...so are parachutes, and covering your mouth when ya sneeze and/or cough, but i digress
follow the science, not your worries. get yourself vaccinated and live
The irony
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 18, 2021, 11:28:13 AM
comparing apples and clothing optional beaches yo. helmits, life vests and seat belts always good...so are parachutes, and covering your mouth when ya sneeze and/or cough, but i digress
follow the science, not your worries. get yourself vaccinated and live
Seat belts have been known to cause injury, and possibly even death.
Some studies show that bike helmets causes more injuries.
https://road.cc/content/news/268605-wearing-cycle-helmet-may-increase-risk-injury-says-new-research
Life jackets can also cause injuries and death.
But like masks, the science shows that they lead to a net decrease in deaths. Kids should be wearing masks if they are not vaccinated. Suggesting that it is child abuse to have a kid wear a mask is moronic, and defies scientific data.
If you want to find outlier cases where harm is caused, you can find it for anything. Heck, water is toxic. People die from drinking water. Wear a freaking mask if you aren't vaccinated, and make your kid do so too.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 18, 2021, 11:28:13 AM
comparing apples and clothing optional beaches yo. helmits, life vests and seat belts always good...so are parachutes, and covering your mouth when ya sneeze and/or cough, but i digress
follow the science, not your worries. get yourself vaccinated and live
Doesn't the science say masks work?
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 18, 2021, 01:53:39 PM
Doesn't the science say masks work?
Now up to 5 members of the Texas house who are on this silly publicity stunt have tested positive, all of which who have been fully vaccinated. Just can't make this stuff up.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 18, 2021, 08:09:20 PM
Now up to 5 members of the Texas house who are on this silly publicity stunt have tested positive, all of which who have been fully vaccinated. Just can't make this stuff up.
Are they sick? Hospitalized? Dead? If not, then yah science, it works.
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 18, 2021, 08:18:46 PM
Are they sick? Hospitalized? Dead? If not, then yah science, it works.
They sent our beloved VP to the hospital?!?!
This behavior is reckless and unnecessary. In the past few days they've met with VP, Manchin, and other prominent DC politicians with each meeting now serving as mini super spreader events.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 18, 2021, 11:28:13 AM
comparing apples and clothing optional beaches yo. helmits, life vests and seat belts always good...so are parachutes, and covering your mouth when ya sneeze and/or cough, but i digress
Until the jackasses at Fox decide to tell, for purely political purposes, that helmets, life vests, and/or seat belts are bad. Then you'll instantly report to Scoop to vomit up whatever disinformation they tell you.
And LOL on sneezes/or coughs. Again, it would be so much better for our species if stupidity this breathtaking were actually physically painful.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 18, 2021, 09:28:53 PM
This behavior is reckless and unnecessary. In the past few days they've met with VP, Manchin, and other prominent DC politicians with each meeting now serving as mini super spreader events.
Spreading the virus is irresponsible, and I wish it didn't happen. The Texas Dems knew it was likely they were going to have to leave their state, and they should have gotten themselves tested in advance so that those who tested positive could have gone into quarantine upon leaving.
But it's more than a "publicity stunt," and one could argue that fighting the GOP's attempts to suppress the vote is the opposite of "unnecessary."
The previous president held one superspreader event after another, before vaccines, no masks required, no social distancing necessary, against the advice of the experts he himself hired, when COVID-19 was killing thousands of people a day. (RIP Herman Cain.) And the only cause he was interested in was his own power. I'm trying to remember if you called those "reckless and unnecessary." Maybe you did; if so, thanks!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 18, 2021, 09:28:53 PM
They sent our beloved VP to the hospital?!?!
This behavior is reckless and unnecessary. In the past few days they've met with VP, Manchin, and other prominent DC politicians with each meeting now serving as mini super spreader events.
Let me get this straight. You are advocating immediate stopping of domestic air travel without a negative covid test?
Otherwise it's irresponsible? Good to know.
I absolutely love that this has devolved into a place of partisan stupidity and bad takes.
Well done guys, well fukcin done!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 18, 2021, 09:28:53 PM
They sent our beloved VP to the hospital?!?!
This behavior is reckless and unnecessary. In the past few days they've met with VP, Manchin, and other prominent DC politicians with each meeting now serving as mini super spreader events.
I don't think you understand the implications of testing positive when you are vaccinated.
From the NYT's David Leonhardt:
When the Kaiser Family Foundation conducted a poll at the start of the year and asked American adults whether they planned to get vaccinated, 23 percent said no.
But a significant portion of that group — about one quarter of it — has since decided to receive a shot. The Kaiser pollsters recently followed up and asked these converts what led them to change their minds. The answers are important, because they offer insight into how the millions of still unvaccinated Americans might be persuaded to get shots, too.
Kaiser findings: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-in-their-own-words-six-months-later/?_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8scN9wbsrWvv-Y18QA0SVjrwEWGDQPf0vCqHPSNkpfdaQ1kePTFMG556sItFkui_N2iQ7FuBKdiZsSLkLOMh7HNFhPTg&_hsmi=2&campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210719&instance_id=35675&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=63826&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa&utm_campaign=KFF-2021-polling-surveys&utm_content=2&utm_medium=email&utm_source=hs_email
The three themes
What helps move people from vaccine skeptical to vaccinated? The Kaiser polls point to three main themes.
(The themes apply to both the 23 percent of people who said they would not get a shot, as well as to the 28 percent who described their attitude in January as "wait and see." About half of the "wait and see" group has since gotten a shot.)
1. Seeing that millions of other Americans have been safely vaccinated.
2. Hearing pro-vaccine messages from doctors, friends and relatives.
3. Learning that not being vaccinated will prevent people from doing some things.
And here's the latest info on who is and isn't getting the vaccine in America:
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2021%2F07%2F18%2Fbriefing%2FoakImage-1626626096450%2FoakImage-1626626096450-articleLarge.png&t=1626701681&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1cd1-3c0203019600&sig=T4lYWvisg7Sm6qxVRjIodw--~D)
Quote from: pbiflyer on July 18, 2021, 08:18:46 PM
Are they sick? Hospitalized? Dead? If not, then yah science, it works.
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-60-of-people-being-admitted-to-hospital-with-coronavirus-have-been-double-jabbed-says-vallance-12359317
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 19, 2021, 01:21:09 PM
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-60-of-people-being-admitted-to-hospital-with-coronavirus-have-been-double-jabbed-says-vallance-12359317
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1417166802736537618
https://twitter.com/kennyshirley/status/1417177778013843456
Quote from: BM1090 on July 19, 2021, 01:25:13 PM
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1417166802736537618
https://twitter.com/kennyshirley/status/1417177778013843456
Is 95% of their population vaccinated or just those 65+? Not familiar with their overall numbers
And wasn't Pfizer supposed to be 98 or 99% effective against hospitalization not 90?
Federal judge allows Indiana University to continue with its COVID-19 vaccine requirement for all students and employees.
https://apnews.com/article/health-government-and-politics-education-indiana-coronavirus-pandemic-39f985eeca76c23ad5b47f856ef034dc
A ruling from a judge in South Bend has rejected a request from eight IU students who sought to block the requirement while they pursued a lawsuit claiming that the university's policy violated both their constitutional rights and the state's new law banning vaccine passports.
The judge held a hearing on the case last week and wrote in his ruling dated Sunday that evidence so far shows that IU has pursued a reasonable policy in the "legitimate interest of public health for its students, faculty and staff."
The judge said the students who object to receiving the vaccine shots can seek medical and religious exemptions offered by the university, while also having the option of taking the fall semester off or attending another school.
IU said in a statement that the ruling allows the school to focus on "a full and safe return" for the fall semester on all its campuses.
Quote from: BM1090 on July 19, 2021, 01:25:13 PM
https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1417166802736537618
https://twitter.com/kennyshirley/status/1417177778013843456
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/b82bdd856d03a8d311c255a03262db2b/tenor.gif?itemid=13448144)
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 19, 2021, 01:44:40 PM
Is 95% of their population vaccinated or just those 65+? Not familiar with their overall numbers
And wasn't Pfizer supposed to be 98 or 99% effective against hospitalization not 90?
Answered my own questions. They as a whole are only 53% fully vaccinated, not 95% as your links suggested. Looks like majority of those vaccinated are doing either Pfizer (97% effective against hospitalizations) or AZ (90% effective).
Either way something isn't jiving
https://mobile.twitter.com/uksciencechief/status/1417204235356213252
Thank goodness
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 19, 2021, 03:13:06 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/uksciencechief/status/1417204235356213252
Thank goodness
40% seems high still. Although if most are from a non-MRNA vaccine, that makes sense. Also, I don't know what their standards to admit someone to the hospital is. Maybe they are extra conservative with those who are elderly and test positive regardless of vaccination status.
Quote from: cheebs09 on July 19, 2021, 03:41:49 PM
40% seems high still. Although if most are from a non-MRNA vaccine, that makes sense. Also, I don't know what their standards to admit someone to the hospital is. Maybe they are extra conservative with those who are elderly and test positive regardless of vaccination status.
Go back and look at the linked tweet for kenny shirley
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-hospitalization-kids-11626706868?redirect=amp#click=https://t.co/j9yoE88i0i
John Hopkins found a 0% mortality in kids without pre-existing condition.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 20, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-hospitalization-kids-11626706868?redirect=amp#click=https://t.co/j9yoE88i0i
John Hopkins found a 0% mortality in kids without pre-existing condition.
Stop reading opinion sections and your life will improve.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 16, 2021, 10:06:55 AM
Its over for the vaccinated, unless you continue to drink the government's kool-aid, hey?
What kool-aid is that? Isn't the CDC basically saying the same thing you are?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 20, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-hospitalization-kids-11626706868?redirect=amp#click=https://t.co/j9yoE88i0i
John Hopkins found a 0% mortality in kids without pre-existing condition.
Is not dying the only benefit of getting vaccinated? If not, this is a stupid and worthless argument.
The mortality rate for chickenpox was virtually nil before a vaccine was available, and yet we still see the benefit of vaccinating children, and in most places require it, right?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 20, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cdc-covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-hospitalization-kids-11626706868?redirect=amp#click=https://t.co/j9yoE88i0i
John Hopkins found a 0% mortality in kids without pre-existing condition.
I would wager that at least 85% of the adult mortality has a pre existing condition. At least the ones. I've worked with.
From McClatchey News:
With the delta variant on the rise across America, more top Republicans, including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, are urging people to get vaccinated. "The way to avoid getting back into the hospital is to get vaccinated," McConnell said.
But the GOP is still not united, with other legislators refusing to condemn vaccine skepticism. Rep. Jason Smith of Missouri recently described President Joe Biden's vaccine outreach policy as "KGB-style."
New coronavirus cases across the U.S. have risen almost 200% over the past two weeks, and conservative parts of the country are being hit the hardest.
Quote from: MUDPT on July 21, 2021, 12:08:26 AM
I would wager that at least 85% of the adult mortality has a pre existing condition. At least the ones. I've worked with.
But the vast majority of those pre-existing conditions were not terminal, if not for the COVID infection, right?
Quote from: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 09:27:40 AM
But the vast majority of those pre-existing conditions were not terminal, if not for the COVID infection, right?
Yep. A 65-year-old woman has diabetes. She's been managing it successfully for 20 years with meds and diet. There is no reason to believe she won't live another 10 or 15 or 20 years, get to enjoy her grandchildren and friends. Then she gets COVID-19 and dies.
Without the pre-existing condition, yes, she might still be alive. But without COVID-19, she almost certainly would have lived many more years. And yet there are many who would argue that isn't really a "COVID-19 death." (I am NOT saying or suggesting MUDPT is arguing that.)
Quote from: MU82 on July 21, 2021, 09:42:03 AM
Yep. A 65-year-old woman has diabetes. She's been managing it successfully for 20 years with meds and diet. There is no reason to believe she won't live another 10 or 15 or 20 years, get to enjoy her grandchildren and friends. Then she gets COVID-19 and dies.
Without the pre-existing condition, yes, she might still be alive. But without COVID-19, she almost certainly would have lived many more years. And yet there are many who would argue that isn't really a "COVID-19 death." (I am NOT saying or suggesting MUDPT is arguing that.)
Thats fine, but at the same time, broad brush comparing those with pre-existing conditions and the general population when it comes to infection and mortality statistics isnt exactly kosher, especially when it comes to things like diabetes or asthma or the like. This entire pandemic has had news sources or commentators playing fast and loose with percentages to drum up anxiety and gain eyeballs.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 21, 2021, 10:40:03 AM
Thats fine, but at the same time, broad brush comparing those with pre-existing conditions and the general population when it comes to infection and mortality statistics isnt exactly kosher, especially when it comes to things like diabetes or asthma or the like. This entire pandemic has had news sources or commentators playing fast and loose with percentages to drum up anxiety and gain eyeballs.
I suppose. But of course, those who are playing fast and loose with the numbers in making believe this hasn't been a catastrophic event, that it's the flu or even the common cold, to gain eyeballs ... that definitely "isn't exactly kosher." And as a bonus, it's no doubt contributed to many choosing not to get vaccinated.
I have seen numerous studies that show the actual COVID-19 death toll actually has been underreported, and likely significantly so. (Such as this one -- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/05/210520145335.htm -- and there are plenty more.)
I guess we'll never know who is "right." But I hope we all can agree the pandemic has been a horrific, tragic event.
And what percentage of Americans have a comorbidity?
Quote from: JWags85 on July 21, 2021, 10:40:03 AM
Thats fine, but at the same time, broad brush comparing those with pre-existing conditions and the general population when it comes to infection and mortality statistics isnt exactly kosher, especially when it comes to things like diabetes or asthma or the like. This entire pandemic has had news sources or commentators playing fast and loose with percentages to drum up anxiety and gain eyeballs.
40 percent of American adults are obese.
13 percent of American adults have diabetes.
8 percent of American adults have asthma.
14 percent of American adults suffer chronic kidney disease.
About 1.7 million Americans are diagnosed with cancer every year, and one in three will have it in their lifetime.
These are not insignificant populations we're talking about, Wags. And again, the vast majority of COVID fatalities with comorbidities are people who would not have died if not for the COVID. Any effort to distinguish these people as "not the general population" is simply downplaying their deaths and the ravages of the disease. If 40 percent, or 1 in 3, isn't the general population, what is?
Quote from: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 11:25:03 AM
40 percent of American adults are obese.
13 percent of American adults have diabetes.
8 percent of American adults have asthma.
14 percent of American adults suffer chronic kidney disease.
About 1.7 million Americans are diagnosed with cancer every year, and one in three will have it in their lifetime.
These are not insignificant populations we're talking about, Wags. And again, the vast majority of COVID fatalities with comorbidities are people who would not have died if not for the COVID. Any effort to distinguish these people as "not the general population" is simply downplaying their deaths and the ravages of the disease. If 40 percent, or 1 in 3, isn't the general population, what is?
Ok, what are those percentages for adults under 65? (I believe something like 25% of adults over 65 have some form of diabetes). Same for kidney disease. We already well know the risk factors of COVID and advancing age.
Obesity is also tricky. Cause nearly half the adult population qualifying as obese yet there are still barely 25K deaths in the under 50 demographic.
Nobody in this discussion here is downplaying this or saying its not "catastrophic". But not everyone's situation is created equal and calling that out isn't being insensitive to their struggles. I'm not defending anti-vaxxers or those politicizing the BS. But when discussing children, using percentages and risk factors for adult populations seems out of bounds.
I'm vaccinated. Im fully in favor for vaccination. Im all for the argument about vaccinating to protect others around you. But I'm tired, and have been tired, for a long time about the fearmongering over individual risk for many segments of the population.
And again, we're talking mortality. Please don't anybody pivot this and start throwing out stuff about long haulers and "non fatal" consequences. I'm not a COVID denier
Wags ... What's your point, then? I've never thought of you as an anti-vaxxer or COVID denier, but I have no idea exactly what you're getting at
That the deaths of those with survivable pre-existing conditions - which includes hundreds of millions of Americans - is somehow different than other deaths?
That the lives of those over the age of 65 are less valuable?
And of course you don't want to talk about long haulers and finger quotes - nonfatal - finger quotes consequences, because doing so kind of ruins whatever point you're making.
You can't seriously claims to be a person who takes science and COVID seriously while making the case that some people - excepting those with medical issues preventing it - shouldn't be vaccinated.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 12:45:55 PM
Wags ... What's your point, then? I've never thought of you as an anti-vaxxer or COVID denier, but I have no idea exactly what you're getting at
That the deaths of those with survivable pre-existing conditions - which includes hundreds of millions of Americans - is somehow different than other deaths?
That the lives of those over the age of 65 are less valuable?
And of course you don't want to talk about long haulers and finger quotes - nonfatal - finger quotes consequences, because doing so kind of ruins whatever point you're making.
You can't seriously claims to be a person who takes science and COVID seriously while making the case that some people - excepting those with medical issues preventing it - shouldn't be vaccinated.
We talk about differing risks all the time. Its in every medicine/pharmaceutical ad. Of course those over 65 aren't less valuable. But talking about them and 20/30/40 somethings in the same breath about anything related to COVID (except the critical need to be vaccinated) is bad messaging.
And nowhere did I say people shouldn't be vaccinated. If people are waiting for more approvals or whatnot before children are vaccinated, thats something i suppose but I was just agreeing that threat of death or serious illness is disingenuous messaging when discussing kids.
Whats my overall point? As I said, over a year later and we still seemingly miss the point that for many many people, the reason for vaccination is protecting the most vulnerable. Yet I feel like so much of the messaging is "get vaccinated or die/be hospitalized" which isn't likely for many people under the age of 65 and thus easy for selfish idiots to ignore. Doom and gloom isn't effective anymore other than driving clicks. I'm exhausted by the messaging so I call it out. Many others just ignore it.
Quote from: JWags85 on July 21, 2021, 01:13:52 PM
Whats my overall point? As I said, over a year later and we still seemingly miss the point that for many many people, the reason for vaccination is protecting the most vulnerable. Yet I feel like so much of the messaging is "get vaccinated or die/be hospitalized" which isn't likely for many people under the age of 65 and thus easy for selfish idiots to ignore. Doom and gloom isn't effective anymore other than driving clicks. I'm exhausted by the messaging so I call it out. Many others just ignore it.
Why is "protecting the vulnerable" suddenly the reason for vaccination? And why is death the only outcome that matters to you?
People don't get their annual influenza shot to "protect the vulnerable." They do it to avoid getting sick.
As I mentioned earlier, before the chickenpox vaccine, the chances of dying from it were less than 1 in 1,000,000. And yet we require it for schoolchildren and hardly anyone makes a fuss. Same with measles. Why is COVID different?
Unlike a medicine that someone gets at the pharmacy, vaccination doesn't just protect the person receiving it, but it helps a communicable disease from spreading. Most people are going to survive many diseases just fine. Something like 3% of those who get polio for instance are going to end up with paralysis. It is really a way for even healthy people to step up and help their community. Which is exactly why people in our selfish society are only thinking of themselves or their close loved ones, and not the vulnerable person two blocks over who can't get vaccinated for whatever reason.
The reasons for the vaccine is to protect everybody, Wags.
Some people don't even know they are among the "most vulnerable" until it's too late.
It took them long enough, but I'm heartened that many Republicans and even some of the Fox News anti-everythingers are getting on board.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/growing-number-of-republicans-urge-vaccinations-amid-delta-surge/2021/07/20/52a06e9c-e999-11eb-8950-d73b3e93ff7f_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F3433389%2F60f84b259d2fda945a1005ab%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F43%2F70%2F60f84b259d2fda945a1005ab
Obviously, some are lost causes like dangerous Q-Anon wingnut MTG, but it's good to see that even some who called COVID-19 a "hoax" are saying everybody should get vaccinated.
I don't say "get vaccinated or die/be hospitalized." I say get vaccinated - period. Or at the very least, don't obstruct those who are trying to get people vaccinated.
And sorry, but I don't feel guilty for talking about cases of previously healthy 8-year-olds catching COVID-19 from unvaccinated relatives and ending up in bad shape, even if it's only a few of them. Those 8-year-olds matter, and so do the next 8-year-olds who might be at risk because of the selfish adults in their lives.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 21, 2021, 01:40:28 PM
Why is "protecting the vulnerable" suddenly the reason for vaccination? And why is death the only outcome that matters to you?
People don't get their annual influenza shot to "protect the vulnerable." They do it to avoid getting sick.
As I mentioned earlier, before the chickenpox vaccine, the chances of dying from it were less than 1 in 1,000,000. And yet we require it for schoolchildren and hardly anyone makes a fuss. Same with measles. Why is COVID different?
"Protecting the vulnerable" is the reason for measles vaccinations. That is why the vaccine is given to infants as most deaths are in children under 5. Measles killed more than 140,000 people 2018, according to estimates from WHO and the CDC.
I am not arguing with your overall point.
I'm admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections," wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional Facebook post Sunday. "One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late."
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html
Quote from: shoothoops on July 21, 2021, 02:11:27 PM
I'm admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections," wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional Facebook post Sunday. "One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late."
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html
Just sayin'
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 21, 2021, 02:30:51 PM
Just sayin'
More or less believable than an emotional MUScoop post?
More than half of of the 146 COVID-19 patients at Mercy Springfield are under the age of 60. They will be needing a 3rd COVID-19 ICU. 8 percent vaccinated:
https://twitter.com/caomercysgf/status/1417871150722453506?s=21
Quote from: shoothoops on July 21, 2021, 04:07:30 PM
More than half of of the 146 COVID-19 patients at Mercy Springfield are under the age of 60. They will be needing a 3rd COVID-19 ICU. 8 percent vaccinated:
https://twitter.com/caomercysgf/status/1417871150722453506?s=21
Apparently, they don't care if they die.
NYT just ran an article about what some were talking about earlier: Many hospitals, clinics and other health-care systems do not require employees to be vaccinated, though every week more are mandating them:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/21/health/covid-vaccine-hospitals.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210722&instance_id=35950&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=64106&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
UPDATE:
My wife's employer and the other major hospital/medical group in NC just today announced that all employees must be vaccinated.
My wife is friends with her department head, who said that they ultimately decided that if requiring vaccinations leads to some employees leaving, those employees weren't the ones they wanted trying to keep/get their patients healthy anyway.
Or as the CEO concluded in his email to employees:
We also want to assure you that this was not a decision we took lightly. The reason for this policy is simply stated: We must take all necessary measures to protect each other, our patients and the communities we serve – especially in combating the various new and very concerning variants.
It's about time!
Have we had the discussion yet about costs of vaccinated vs unvaccinated?
Those who choose to go without the vaccine, get sick and require medical treatment, are (if they have insurance) paying their deductible/co pay and then relying on the vaccinated to pay for the treatment.
Seems... screwed up to me.
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 22, 2021, 01:21:35 PM
Have we had the discussion yet about costs of vaccinated vs unvaccinated?
Those who choose to go without the vaccine, get sick and require medical treatment, are (if they have insurance) paying their deductible/co pay and then relying on the vaccinated to pay for the treatment.
Seems... screwed up to me.
Yep. I had thought about this a lot. It's kind of like ... um ... what's that evil word? ...
welfare!
Quote from: MU82 on July 22, 2021, 01:50:21 PM
Yep. I had thought about this a lot. It's kind of like ... um ... what's that evil word? ... welfare!
Or, um, you know, insurance. ::)
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 22, 2021, 02:36:46 PM
Or, um, you know, insurance. ::)
Uh, do you honestly think that everyone who is turning up at the hospital has insurance?
A Yahoo News/YouGov poll conducted July 13-15 and released Tuesday found that more unvaccinated Americans think the COVID-19 vaccines pose the greater risk to their personal health than think the coronavirus poses the greater risk.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article252919518.html?
Overall, 61% of respondents said the coronavirus poses a greater risk to their personal health than the COVID-19 vaccines, while 18% said the vaccines pose a greater risk than the coronavirus and 21% said they are not sure.
But when broken down by vaccination status, the poll found 29% of respondents who are not vaccinated think the virus poses the greater risk and 37% think the vaccines pose the greater risk. Another 34% said they are not sure.
In other news, the majority of unvaccinated Americans are not very bright.
Quote from: MU82 on July 22, 2021, 07:39:16 PM
A Yahoo News/YouGov poll conducted July 13-15 and released Tuesday found that more unvaccinated Americans think the COVID-19 vaccines pose the greater risk to their personal health than think the coronavirus poses the greater risk.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article252919518.html?
Overall, 61% of respondents said the coronavirus poses a greater risk to their personal health than the COVID-19 vaccines, while 18% said the vaccines pose a greater risk than the coronavirus and 21% said they are not sure.
But when broken down by vaccination status, the poll found 29% of respondents who are not vaccinated think the virus poses the greater risk and 37% think the vaccines pose the greater risk. Another 34% said they are not sure.
In other news, the majority of unvaccinated Americans are not very bright.
Then they whine when we call them ignorant.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 22, 2021, 02:54:20 PM
Uh, do you honestly think that everyone who is turning up at the hospital has insurance?
Obamacare shoulda fixed that, no?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 23, 2021, 12:10:20 AM
Obamacare shoulda fixed that, no?
Nope. There is no law that says you have to carry health insurance. Just that it is available.
But you know this.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 23, 2021, 05:58:50 AM
Nope. There is no law that says you have to carry health insurance. Just that it is available.
But you know this.
Actually the law still mandates that you get health insurance, but the 2017 tax bill eliminated any tax penalties for not having it. Supreme Court just upheld it last month.
The opening paragraphs of NYT's David Leonhardt's latest piece on vaccines:
Vaccine mandates are controversial. They're also effective.
++ Before Houston Methodist became one of the first hospital systems in the U.S. to mandate Covid-19 vaccines, about 85 percent of its employees were vaccinated. After the mandate, the share rose to about 98 percent, with the remaining 2 percent receiving exemptions for medical or religious reasons, Bloomberg's Carey Goldberg reported. Only about 0.6 percent of employees quit or were fired.
++ Schools — including Indiana University and many private colleges — that require students and workers to get vaccinated have reported extremely high uptake.
++ A recent Kaiser Family Foundation survey of Americans who had been opposed to getting vaccinated and later changed their minds found that mandates — or restrictions on the unvaccinated — were one common reason. One 51-year-old man told Kaiser that he began to feel as if he had "limited options without it."
++ The French government will soon require that people show proof of vaccination or a recent negative test to eat at a restaurant, attend a movie or participate in many other activities. After President Emmanuel Macron announced the policy last week, the number of vaccine appointments surged. Italy announced a similar policy yesterday, The Times's Marc Santora explains.
It's true that these mandates often generate intense criticism. In France, more than 100,000 people marched to protest Macron's policy. In the U.S., critics sued, unsuccessfully so far, to stop Indiana University's mandate. Some Republican politicians have also tried to stop mandates, including Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida and Gov. Mike DeWine of Ohio.
The mandates are also not 100 percent effective. Some people will receive exemptions, as was the case at Houston Methodist. A small number may forge vaccine records. And some vaccinated people will still contract mild versions of Covid, through so-called breakthrough infections.
But even with the opposition and the exceptions, mandates can play a major role in reducing the spread of Covid and saving lives. That's especially true now that the Delta variant is fueling a rise in cases. "The takeaway message remains, if you're vaccinated, you are protected," Dr. Céline Gounder, an infectious disease specialist, told our colleague Apoorva Mandavilli. "You are not going to end up with severe disease, hospitalization or death."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-hospitalized-covid-19-told-160432588.html
Guy hospitalized with Covid would rather do that than be vaccinated.
I'm not surprised Dak sounds like a complete idiot, always struck me as not the sharpest pencil in the drawer.
"I'm not saying whether or not I'm vaccinated " = "I'm a dope who isn't vaccinated."
One of my former students, now an ICU doc in a conservative state has been adamant about people getting vaccinated. They are getting slammed in the ICU again, but this time it is different. The vast majority of ICU patients, many dying, are young and otherwise healthy.
This isn't over, and its hitting a different population hard now.
For those that are vaccinated, if you get infected you can pass it on to individuals that are young and can't get the vaccine yet. You infecting them can put them in the ICU, no matter what their age.
Quote from: forgetful on July 23, 2021, 09:48:08 PM
One of my former students, now an ICU doc in a conservative state has been adamant about people getting vaccinated. They are getting slammed in the ICU again, but this time it is different. The vast majority of ICU patients, many dying, are young and otherwise healthy.
This isn't over, and its hitting a different population hard now.
For those that are vaccinated, if you get infected you can pass it on to individuals that are young and can't get the vaccine yet. You infecting them can put them in the ICU, no matter what their age.
As someone who is vaccinated, and who is in the age group that seems to be more susceptible lately, would you recommend getting tested on a consistent basis, because TBH I haven't been tested since I got my second dose (pfizer, first dose March, second early April, if it matters).
Quote from: Its DJOver on July 23, 2021, 09:54:05 PM
As someone who is vaccinated, and who is in the age group that seems to be more susceptible lately, would you recommend getting tested on a consistent basis, because TBH I haven't been tested since I got my second dose (pfizer, first dose March, second early April, if it matters).
Only if symptomatic.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 24, 2021, 06:24:31 AM
Only if symptomatic.
I agree with this.
The only thing that I would add, is that with where things currently are with Delta, if you are regularly around people who are unvaccinated (e.g. Children), it was be courteous/smart to mask if you are in crowded areas.
Also, might be time to start canceling trips out to the bar, if you are a bar goer.
I personally think what we're seeing is the impact the unvaccinated are having when they foolishly adopt the protocols appropriate for the 'vaccinated only' crowd. It's a classic case of having their cake and eating it too. And now they are paying the price.
I've certainly not followed the literature closely but I do think I understand that this new Delta is more contagious but likely less deadly, the latter possibly at least partially due to lower rates simply associated with being young, healthy, and able to fight it off. I guess we're back to everyone eventually getting immunity one way or the other. I know the decision I made.
I was telling chick the other day that I see parallels to the emerald ask borer 'pandemic'. Remember how 'don't transport firewood' was going to save the trees? Yeah, that worked. Like for a few years. Look at all the dead timber now as you drive.
Get the damn shot and save your family a lot of anguish.
Australia does a lot of contact tracing. They are very sure one person got infected walking past another person in a mall. Another older person got it who was sitting in front of a cafe where the limo driver who picked it up transporting an international flight crew was eating - he is the probable source of the current community outbreak.
That's how contagious Delta appears to be.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 24, 2021, 06:24:31 AM
Only if symptomatic.
Yes and also if you have a known exposure: inside, unmasked, close proximity for a long periods of time.
Quote from: forgetful on July 23, 2021, 09:48:08 PM
One of my former students, now an ICU doc in a conservative state has been adamant about people getting vaccinated. They are getting slammed in the ICU again, but this time it is different. The vast majority of ICU patients, many dying, are young and otherwise healthy.
This isn't over, and its hitting a different population hard now.
For those that are vaccinated, if you get infected you can pass it on to individuals that are young and can't get the vaccine yet. You infecting them can put them in the ICU, no matter what their age.
If you discuss the first-hand knowledge that medical personnel have, and accompany that with all of the associated facts, some will accuse you of fearmongering.
If you say "this isn't over," you will be met immediately with "yeah, but only for the unvaccinated." Because unvaccinated kids -- like the 8-year-old currently in my wife's ICU because her unvaccinated relatives infected her -- getting the virus apparently is not yet common enough for us to really care.
Quote from: MU82 on July 24, 2021, 01:53:06 PM
If you discuss the first-hand knowledge that medical personnel have, and accompany that with all of the associated facts, some will accuse you of fearmongering.
If you say "this isn't over," you will be met immediately with "yeah, but only for the unvaccinated." Because unvaccinated kids -- like the 8-year-old currently in my wife's ICU because her unvaccinated relatives infected her -- getting the virus apparently is not yet common enough for us to really care.
I think those that say it's over have added the caveat that it's over for those that are vaccinated.
As someone with an infant, I don't view it as over for me. We still try to eat outdoors and only hang out with vaccinated people when she is with us. However, when she's not with us, we feel pretty comfortable going to restaurants and doing normal things we'd do before Covid. Also, I believe there's some research showing those who are vaccinated and breast feeding can pass on some antibodies, so we hope that is the case as well.
Quote from: cheebs09 on July 24, 2021, 01:59:02 PM
I think those that say it's over have added the caveat that it's over for those that are vaccinated.
As someone with an infant, I don't view it as over for me. We still try to eat outdoors and only hang out with vaccinated people when she is with us. However, when she's not with us, we feel pretty comfortable going to restaurants and doing normal things we'd do before Covid. Also, I believe there's some research showing those who are vaccinated and breast feeding can pass on some antibodies, so we hope that is the case as well.
Yes, they use that caveat, but don't add the caveat to the caveat -- that millions of unvaccinated Americans haven't made the choice for themselves. Either they are too young to get vaccinated yet or they are old enough (12-17) but their parents won't let them get it. Or they are adults with mental disabilities whose parents or caregivers won't help them get it.
IMHO, it's not fair to lump these innocent victims in with the selfish, idiotic adults in their lives.
I appreciate how responsible you are with your daughter, and I wish your family great health and happiness.
Quote from: MUDPT on July 24, 2021, 12:58:38 PM
Yes and also if you have a known exposure: inside, unmasked, close proximity for a long periods of time.
Actually known exposure if vaccinated isn't much of a concern.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 24, 2021, 03:17:07 PM
Actually known exposure if vaccinated isn't much of a concern.
Define concern. As a medical professional in Covid positive rooms every week, with unvaccinated children at home, with evidence of reduced transmission of vaccinated (not 100%), I'm still concerned.
Quote from: MUDPT on July 24, 2021, 03:49:11 PM
Define concern. As a medical professional in Covid positive rooms every week, with unvaccinated children at home, with evidence of reduced transmission of vaccinated (not 100%), I'm still concerned.
Follow the science. You shouldn't be.
Quote from: jsglow on July 24, 2021, 09:01:19 AM
I've certainly not followed the literature closely but I do think I understand that this new Delta is more contagious but likely less deadly, the latter possibly at least partially due to lower rates simply associated with being young, healthy, and able to fight it off.
I don't think your hypothesis has anything to do with delta being more or less deadly—rather the vaccinated status of vulnerable and those likely getting impacted.
Quote from: forgetful on July 24, 2021, 08:37:51 AM
I agree with this.
The only thing that I would add, is that with where things currently are with Delta, if you are regularly around people who are unvaccinated (e.g. Children), it was be courteous/smart to mask if you are in crowded areas.
Also, might be time to start canceling trips out to the bar, if you are a bar goer.
What about dining out, would that still be safe to do? Movie theaters? What would you be comfortable doing indoors right now? Being that Covid is airborne and not only transmitted via respiratory droplets (singing and screaming in a bar) wondering why you picked out bars specifically?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 24, 2021, 05:54:51 PM
Follow the science. You shouldn't be.
Delta has much higher viral loads and a shorter incubation period. Vaccines are also less effective at preventing mild symptoms. If you find yourself in the pretty specific situation that I mentioned and are at risk of infecting an unvaccinated person, you absolutely should test. Just because you are "asymptomatic" today, doesn't mean you won't be tomorrow and could be out spreading the virus to unvaccinated people.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrsT106/status/1418978938928369667
Wait?? So the PCR tests being run up til this point couldn't differentiate between the flu and Covid?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 24, 2021, 10:10:19 PM
What about dining out, would that still be safe to do? Movie theaters? What would you be comfortable doing indoors right now? Being that Covid is airborne and not only transmitted via respiratory droplets (singing and screaming in a bar) wondering why you picked out bars specifically?
I can't speak for forgetful, but the states that made bars among the last to reopen during the pre-Delta COVID-19 waves made the argument that bars are uniquely positioned to spread the virus.
Lots of people in cramped quarters, often speaking loudly or even yelling right into each others' faces because bars tend to be loud environments (music, multiple conversations, dancing, hookup attempts, general din). As the night goes on, people get more drunk. So more yelling, lowered inhibitions, etc. The latter is why as bars gradually were allowed to reopen, they faced mandatory closing times like 10 or 11 pm.
The above is also why some states allowed breweries with taprooms to be open while not letting bars reopen. Some saw this as hypocritical, but patrons at taprooms tend to exhibit significantly different behaviors than those at bars/clubs.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 24, 2021, 10:56:56 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrsT106/status/1418978938928369667
Wait?? So the PCR tests being run up til this point couldn't differentiate between the flu and Covid?
No. Two separate tests were run on a single sample, flu and Covid. Now it can be accomplished with one test.
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html
Read instead of react.
Quote from: Retire0 on July 25, 2021, 08:28:07 AM
No. Two separate tests were run on a single sample, flu and Covid. Now it can be accomplished with one test.
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html
Read instead of react.
Trolly troll is "just asking questions" don't ya know. Weird that his questions are always based on rightwing misinformation.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 24, 2021, 10:56:56 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrsT106/status/1418978938928369667
Wait?? So the PCR tests being run up til this point couldn't differentiate between the flu and Covid?
Village idiot continues to get his news from random people on twitter.
Quote from: Retire0 on July 25, 2021, 08:28:07 AM
No. Two separate tests were run on a single sample, flu and Covid. Now it can be accomplished with one test.
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html
Read instead of react.
Reading has a well known liberal bias.
As does reading with comprehension.
Nm
Wait? So the "Kung Flu" didn't just disappear "like a miracle" in the spring of 2020?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 24, 2021, 10:56:56 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrsT106/status/1418978938928369667
Wait?? So the PCR tests being run up til this point couldn't differentiate between the flu and Covid?
No, she's stupid.
QuoteAmy Tarkanian
@MrsT106
Mom of 4 | Hubby is @Dannytarkanian
| Former NV GOP Chairwoman | GenX | TV Political Pundit & Strategist
She is a nobody and can't read critically. https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html
Check your sources before freaking out.
Here is the full paragraph in question.
QuoteIn preparation for this change, CDC recommends clinical laboratories and testing sites that have been using the CDC 2019-nCoV RT-PCR assay select and begin their transition to another FDA-authorized COVID-19 test. CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses. Such assays can facilitate continued testing for both influenza and SARS-CoV-2 and can save both time and resources as we head into influenza season. Laboratories and testing sites should validate and verify their selected assay within their facility before beginning clinical testing.
Stop he's already dead.gif
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2021, 07:38:58 AM
I can't speak for forgetful, but the states that made bars among the last to reopen during the pre-Delta COVID-19 waves made the argument that bars are uniquely positioned to spread the virus.
Lots of people in cramped quarters, often speaking loudly or even yelling right into each others' faces because bars tend to be loud environments (music, multiple conversations, dancing, hookup attempts, general din). As the night goes on, people get more drunk. So more yelling, lowered inhibitions, etc. The latter is why as bars gradually were allowed to reopen, they faced mandatory closing times like 10 or 11 pm.
The above is also why some states allowed breweries with taprooms to be open while not letting bars reopen. Some saw this as hypocritical, but patrons at taprooms tend to exhibit significantly different behaviors than those at bars/clubs.
And that all made sense when we thought the primary mode of transmitting the virus was through respiratory droplets. From what I understand being that it is now known to be airborne it doesn't matter if you're in an environment with yelling, singing, etc.
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 25, 2021, 01:56:52 PM
Stop he's already dead.gif
Haha, exactly. Thanks for the clarification fellas. Over and over and over again.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 25, 2021, 02:03:05 PM
Haha, exactly. Thanks for the clarification fellas. Over and over and over again.
It's fine, you can see none her replies read the release either. Not surprising though. Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 25, 2021, 02:02:29 PM
And that all made sense when we thought the primary mode of transmitting the virus was through respiratory droplets. From what I understand being that it is now known to be airborne it doesn't matter if you're in an environment with yelling, singing, etc.
Sigh.
From the very top of the CDC site (updated July 14, 2021):
COVID-19 spreads when an infected person breathes out droplets and very small particles that contain the virus. These droplets and particles can be breathed in by other people or land on their eyes, noses, or mouth. In some circumstances, they may contaminate surfaces they touch. People who are closer than 6 feet from the infected person are most likely to get infected.
COVID-19 is spread in three main ways:
++ Breathing in air when close to an infected person who is exhaling small droplets and particles that contain the virus.
++ Having these small droplets and particles that contain virus land on the eyes, nose, or mouth, especially through splashes and sprays like a cough or sneeze.
++ Touching eyes, nose, or mouth with hands that have the virus on them.https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html
In other words, a bar is about the best place an unvaccinated human being can go if he or she wants to get COVID-19.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2021, 03:19:28 PM
Sigh.
From the very top of the CDC site (updated July 14, 2021):
COVID-19 spreads when an infected person breathes out droplets and very small particles that contain the virus. These droplets and particles can be breathed in by other people or land on their eyes, noses, or mouth. In some circumstances, they may contaminate surfaces they touch. People who are closer than 6 feet from the infected person are most likely to get infected.
COVID-19 is spread in three main ways:
++ Breathing in air when close to an infected person who is exhaling small droplets and particles that contain the virus.
++ Having these small droplets and particles that contain virus land on the eyes, nose, or mouth, especially through splashes and sprays like a cough or sneeze.
++ Touching eyes, nose, or mouth with hands that have the virus on them.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html
In other words, a bar is about the best place an unvaccinated human being can go if he or she wants to get COVID-19.
Double sigh.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on July 25, 2021, 03:36:03 PM
Double sigh.
Indeed. You sometimes work so hard to spread misinformation, I imagine it must be exhausting for you to have to deal with facts.
Oh, and here's the top of a column by the Washington Post's E.J. Dionne that I thought you might like:
Bad news is leading to at least a bit of good news: The surge of the covid-19 delta variant seems to have lit a fire under many Republican politicians. As the virus spreads largely in GOP regions with low vaccination rates, leaders of a party where anti-vax sentiment has run rampant have started sounding the alarm: Not getting vaccinated really can kill you.
One of the most unequivocal statements came from Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.). "These shots need to get in everybody's arm as rapidly as possible," he said last week, adding a swipe at those pushing falsehoods about vaccines, who happen to include many in his own party:
"I want to encourage everybody . . . to ignore all of these other voices that are giving demonstrably bad advice."
As Republican pollster Whit Ayres notes, McConnell, who endured polio as a child, has always embraced the power of vaccination. More surprising was a vaccine plug from Florida's Republican governor, Ron DeSantis, a longtime baiter of federal authorities whose reelection campaign is selling merchandise mocking Anthony S. Fauci, the White House health adviser.
Yes, even the man peddling "Don't Fauci My Florida" T-shirts seems to have noticed that over the past two weeks, 20 percent of all the nation's new covid-19 cases were in his state.
"If you look at the people that are being admitted to hospitals, over 95 percent of them are either not fully vaccinated or not vaccinated at all," DeSantis said Wednesday. "And so these vaccines are saving lives. They are reducing mortality."
The pro-vaccine message is even reaching the heart of Trump country. "Folks [are] supposed to have common sense," Alabama Republican Gov. Kay Ivey said on Thursday. "But it's time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks. It's the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down." You might say the scolding was overdue: Ivey leads the country's least vaccinated state.
We should cheer all Republicans joining the fight against the anti-vaccine undertow in their party — and be especially appreciative of Republican officials who have been there from the beginning.
Interesting story from the BBC.
A marketing company registered in the UK and Russia has been offeringto pay social media influencers to spread false claims about the Pfizer vaccine killing people. In some cases, the influences accepted and spread the fake news. The company claimed to be acting on behalf of an anonymous client.
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57928647
Quote from: Pakuni on July 25, 2021, 04:58:56 PM
The company claimed to be acting on behalf of an anonymous client.
But enough about Marjorie Taylor Greene.
My wife just told me that the night nurse on one floor at the children's hospital here actually was bragging to a patient's mother that she was unvaccinated, that she's been living a "normal" life with nights out on the town and everything, and that she "can't wait till we don't have to wear these stupid masks anymore."
Talk about an idiot. It's idiotic enough to refuse to be vaccinated, but bragging about it to the mother of a hospitalized child? That's a special kind of idiot.
The mother, whose child is immuno-comprised, complained the next day to the nurse's supervisor and insisted that her child only be seen in the future by vaccinated personnel. The nurse was "officially reprimanded" but otherwise not punished.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2021, 06:55:15 PM
My wife just told me that the night nurse on one floor at the children's hospital here actually was bragging to a patient's mother that she was unvaccinated, that she's been living a "normal" life with nights out on the town and everything, and that she "can't wait till we don't have to wear these stupid masks anymore."
Talk about an idiot. It's idiotic enough to refuse to be vaccinated, but bragging about it to the mother of a hospitalized child? That's a special kind of idiot.
The mother, whose child is immuno-comprised, complained the next day to the nurse's supervisor and insisted that her child only be seen in the future by vaccinated personnel. The nurse was "officially reprimanded" but otherwise not punished.
Must have a strong nurses union, hey?
"It's idiotic enough to refuse to be vaccinated"
so much for tolerance among yous guys...coexist, eyn'a?
so everyone you have a disagreement with is an "idiot'? tells us all we need to know
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2021, 06:55:15 PM
My wife just told me that the night nurse on one floor at the children's hospital here actually was bragging to a patient's mother that she was unvaccinated, that she's been living a "normal" life with nights out on the town and everything, and that she "can't wait till we don't have to wear these stupid masks anymore."
Talk about an idiot. It's idiotic enough to refuse to be vaccinated, but bragging about it to the mother of a hospitalized child? That's a special kind of idiot.
The mother, whose child is immuno-comprised, complained the next day to the nurse's supervisor and insisted that her child only be seen in the future by vaccinated personnel. The nurse was "officially reprimanded" but otherwise not punished.
Sounds like someone that should have been fired.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 25, 2021, 07:52:35 PM
Must have a strong nurses union, hey?
This is North Carolina. There ain't no nurse's union here. Unions are few and far between at all.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 25, 2021, 09:29:13 PM
"It's idiotic enough to refuse to be vaccinated"
so much for tolerance among yous guys...coexist, eyn'a?
so everyone you have a disagreement with is an "idiot'? tells us all we need to know
No, only idiots who would put children's lives in danger are idiots.
She's an effen nurse who works with immuno-compromised kids, and she's bragging about not being vaccinated. So yes, she's an idiot.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sarah-huckabee-sanders-encourages-arkansans-211400306.html
Sarah Huckabee Sanders, candidate for governor of Arkansas, got vaccinated several months ago after being 'reassured' by President Trump getting vaccinated and is now encouraging residents of Arkansas to get the 'Trump vaccine'. Blames President Biden, VP Harris, Dr Fauci and the media for vaccine hesitancy.
Quote from: MU82 on July 25, 2021, 09:43:49 PM
No, only idiots who would put children's lives in danger are idiots.
She's an effen nurse who works with immuno-compromised kids, and she's bragging about not being vaccinated. So yes, she's an idiot.
i was referring to your label on her for being unvaccinated
the rest of your story is pretty convenient...i'm sure there is a little more to the story, but if it works for ya...carry on
Quote from: Warriors4ever on July 25, 2021, 09:45:06 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sarah-huckabee-sanders-encourages-arkansans-211400306.html
Sarah Huckabee Sanders, candidate for governor of Arkansas, got vaccinated several months ago after being 'reassured' by President Trump getting vaccinated and is now encouraging residents of Arkansas to get the 'Trump vaccine'. Blames President Biden, VP Harris, Dr Fauci and the media for vaccine hesitancy.
as she should. it wasn't but 8-10 months ago, they were saying they didn't trust the vaccine. after november 2, the vaccine was the nectar of the gods
Quote from: Warriors4ever on July 25, 2021, 09:45:06 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sarah-huckabee-sanders-encourages-arkansans-211400306.html
Sarah Huckabee Sanders, candidate for governor of Arkansas, got vaccinated several months ago after being 'reassured' by President Trump getting vaccinated and is now encouraging residents of Arkansas to get the 'Trump vaccine'. Blames President Biden, VP Harris, Dr Fauci and the media for vaccine hesitancy.
Even though the latter part of that is a lie, that's the way GOP candidates who want to win should play it.
Get the vaccine, encourage others to get it, bend the knee to the deposed Mad King, lie about vaccine hesitancy being all the Dems' fault.
And while you're on a roll, make sure to mention antifa and Critical Race Theory.
Voilà! A winning message!
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 25, 2021, 10:04:57 PM
they were saying they didn't trust the vaccine.
That, of course, is a lie. But you worship the biggest liar in American history, so it's not surprising.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 25, 2021, 10:04:57 PM
as she should. it wasn't but 8-10 months ago, they were saying they didn't trust the vaccine. after november 2, the vaccine was the nectar of the gods
So Trump voters are vaccine hesitant because they take their cues from Buden and Harris?
Did you ever stop to think how dumb that sounds before you took the time to type it?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 25, 2021, 09:29:13 PM
"It's idiotic enough to refuse to be vaccinated"
so much for tolerance among yous guys...coexist, eyn'a?
so everyone you have a disagreement with is an "idiot'? tells us all we need to know
You called me a child abuser because I have my 6 year old wear a mask in certain situations.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 25, 2021, 10:20:25 PM
So Trump voters are vaccine hesitant because they take their cues from Buden and Harris?
Did you ever stop to think how dumb that sounds before you took the time to type it?
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe-biden-kamala-harris-led-covid-vaccine-skepticism-parade-before-election-1105376/
everybody is so dumb here except the majesty of pak...everyone please bow
also, they aren't necessarily referring to trump voters. you do knoe the african american population is lagging as well. there are people from all walks of life who are vaccine skeptics
Quote from: reinko on July 26, 2021, 05:25:55 AM
You called me a child abuser because I have my 6 year old wear a mask in certain situations.
i hope it's only limited to masks
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 26, 2021, 06:21:09 AM
i hope it's only limited to masks
You're an embarrassment to Marquette
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 26, 2021, 06:20:24 AM
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/07/18/im-not-taking-it-joe-biden-kamala-harris-led-covid-vaccine-skepticism-parade-before-election-1105376/
everybody is so dumb here except the majesty of pak...everyone please bow
also, they aren't necessarily referring to trump voters. you do knoe the african american population is lagging as well. there are people from all walks of life who are vaccine skeptics
There are a lot of vaccine skeptics of various types no doubt.
But it is undoubtedly true that conservative news sources fueled the vaccine skepticism that has lead to lower vaccine numbers in red states. It is painfully obvious that the Covid vaccine is extremely effective, yet people have said that it was better for them to risk getting Covid than getting the vaccine while laying in their hospital beds.
Fox and other similar news sources have needlessly caused the deaths of hundreds of Americans because a virus they hailed as Trump's, is no longer a big thing because of the guy in the White House. Pretty said.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 26, 2021, 06:21:09 AM
i hope it's only limited to masks
Remember to tell your pastor about this one in the magic sorry box next Sunday.
Quote from: reinko on July 26, 2021, 05:25:55 AM
You called me a child abuser because I have my 6 year old wear a mask in certain situations.
Imagine if you shave his/her head...
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 26, 2021, 06:21:09 AM
i hope it's only limited to masks
Plenty of folks have reported this. Rocket - see your PMs.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 26, 2021, 09:15:27 AM
Remember to tell your pastor about this one in the magic sorry box next Sunday.
Do they have confessionals big enough to ride your golf cart into now?
Quote from: TSmith34 on July 26, 2021, 10:16:06 AM
Do they have confessionals big enough to ride your golf cart into now?
LOL
All NYC municipal workers are being required to get the vaccine or face weekly testing. Only 43% of NYPD snd support staff are vaccinated. (meaning actual police vaccinated could be lower than 43%) The municipal workers includes teachers.
The Department of Veterans Affairs will require health care workers to be vaccinated, the first federal agency to do so for its employees.
The mandate will apply to roughly 115,000 workers who are "the most patient-facing," Denis McDonough, the secretary of veterans affairs, said.
Beginning Wednesday, those health care workers will have eight weeks to get fully vaccinated or face penalties including possible removal, he said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/26/us/politics/veterans-affairs-coronavirus-covid-19.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210726&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=64460&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
ALSO ...
Vaccination should be mandatory for U.S. health care workers, a group of nearly 60 major medical organizations said.
The groups, which included the American Medical Association and the American Nurses Association, said in a statement that vaccination is an ethical obligation for health care workers, as the highly contagious Delta variant drives a new surge of coronavirus cases.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/26/health/health-care-workers-vaccine-requirement.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210726&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=64452&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
No-brainer No. 1 and No-brainer No. 2. Not sure how anybody could argue against either of these.
I have an uncle in a group home at the VA. He hasn't been allowed to step in another building (family member's home, Culver's etc) since March 2020.
About a month ago he got weekly visits up to an hour each. Now he's at 4 hours a week. But he still can't attend family baptisms, birthdays, First Communions etc. But staff of the house can come and go.
It's been extremely frustrating. I hope this is a step forward for him. He last saw most family in a group setting for Christmas 2019. His absence from his family is now longer than his tour in Vietnam. And he's been double vaxxed since January.
Quote from: The Lens on July 26, 2021, 02:56:54 PM
I have an uncle in a group home at the VA. He hasn't been allowed to step in another building (family member's home, Culver's etc) since March 2020.
About a month ago he got weekly visits up to an hour each. Now he's at 4 hours a week. But he still can't attend family baptisms, birthdays, First Communions etc. But staff of the house can come and go.
It's been extremely frustrating. I hope this is a step forward for him. He last saw most family in a group setting for Christmas 2019. His absence from his family is now longer than his tour in Vietnam. And he's been double vaxxed since January.
This some bullshit
California will require all state employees and health care workers to be vaccinated or face regular testing.
The new requirement will apply to roughly 246,000 public employees beginning on Aug. 9 and be implemented by Aug. 23.
THIS is an example of why it's more than "because ... freedom!" ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/covid-vaccine-regrets/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F343d6f1%2F60fedcf59d2fda945a1931e5%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F50%2F70%2F60fedcf59d2fda945a1931e5
An Alabama mother who lost her son to covid says not getting the vaccine is her biggest regret
These days, Christy Carpenter finds strength in her family and faith. But on some days, one question keeps ringing in her head: "Why?"
After weeks of battling through oxygen treatments, her 28-year-old son died in the hospital two months after being diagnosed with covid-19.
Now in Carpenter's Alabama home, the room belonging to Curt, her "beautiful baby boy" and firstborn, remains empty — a painful reminder of a life that could have been saved if the family had decided to get vaccinated, she said.
"It took watching my son die and me suffering the effects of covid for us to realize we need the vaccine," the mother said. "We did not get vaccinated when we had the opportunity and regret that so much now."
Curt Carpenter was a young and otherwise healthy man. While at home, his mother said, he would spoil her with the "best hugs" and a daily dosage of kindness. Curt was autistic, and Christy Carpenter said he "lived life to the fullest" and had a passion for all things Pokémon, trains, video games and frogs.
The pandemic dealt a big blow to the tightknit Carpenter family on March 5, when Curt, his younger sister and his mother were diagnosed with the virus, which has claimed about 610,000 lives across the nation.
At first, the three experienced mild symptoms that slowly began to alleviate. Then, a week later, everything took a turn for the worse.
When their oxygen saturation levels dropped dangerously, the mother and son were rushed to Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham. A day later, they both developed pneumonia, and Curt Carpenter was put on a ventilator.
The constantly changing oxygen levels paired with a pneumothorax — a collapsed lung — were too much for Curt Carpenter's body. His organs began shutting down. He was declared dead May 2.
This adult woman wasn't willing to take such a "new" vaccine, so she wouldn't let her son take it either. And now her son -- through no fault of his own -- is dead.
Quote from: MU82 on July 26, 2021, 10:00:58 PM
California will require all state employees and health care workers to be vaccinated or face regular testing.
The new requirement will apply to roughly 246,000 public employees beginning on Aug. 9 and be implemented by Aug. 23.
New York City will be doing the same thing.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on July 27, 2021, 08:44:37 AM
New York City will be doing the same thing.
I'll be in NYC in three weeks. Hope we can actually enjoy our time there.
Pack lots of masks. Bring proof of vaccination.
Lovell's got da chit, hey?
Fully vaccinated. Good luck to him.
Lake of The Ozarks:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/07/27/ozarks-lake-covid-unvaccinated-500784
Quote from: The Lens on July 26, 2021, 02:56:54 PM
I have an uncle in a group home at the VA. He hasn't been allowed to step in another building (family member's home, Culver's etc) since March 2020.
About a month ago he got weekly visits up to an hour each. Now he's at 4 hours a week. But he still can't attend family baptisms, birthdays, First Communions etc. But staff of the house can come and go.
It's been extremely frustrating. I hope this is a step forward for him. He last saw most family in a group setting for Christmas 2019. His absence from his family is now longer than his tour in Vietnam. And he's been double vaxxed since January.
Lens
This is awful.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 27, 2021, 09:55:47 PM
Lens
This is awful.
It gets worse. The VA's new position of 8 weeks for staff to get vaxxed or out, sounds great and probably promised my Uncle freedom that he has not enjoyed in 16+ months...however 5 of the regular nurses and orderlies in his group home (all African American) have told him they now have to quit. My uncle is beside himself. He wants his "freedom" but he also has grown to see these "staffers" as family and it's killing him that they may leave. He told me today, "we've done a pretty bad job treating black people over the past 60 years so I can't judge their hesitancy". Mind you, my Uncle is no liberal, he'd spit in Bill Clinton's face if they ever crossed paths, but he's been around the block to understand certain things.
What is so sad to me, and IMO is a huge failing of this admin is the lack of an organized campaign to reach out to people of color. Vaccine benefit awareness should be the biggest PSA in history. African Americans by and large drive cultural trends, why haven't we harnessed those voices from literature, the arts, entertainment and sports to hammer home how we all win with the vaccine. Such a missed opportunity.
Back to my Uncle...who knows. Maybe in 2 months or so he'll be sprung. One can hope. He's a huge part of our life and our family get togethers. His life was never the same after 'Nam but he always had his brothers, and his nieces & nephews. I hope he gets that back.
Celebrities won't do it. One of the active members of the Chicago vaccine hunters group is the guy spearheading the effort from Roseland Hospital on the far south side of Chicago. He has written more than once about how hard they are working to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the community - I watched a video he posted of an outreach and honestly it was practically one-on-one in basically a town hall type community meeting. I know Chicago has put a ton of effort into outreach to the minority and disadvantaged communities, partnering with churches and other community groups.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on July 27, 2021, 11:37:15 PM
Celebrities won't do it. One of the active members of the Chicago vaccine hunters group is the guy spearheading the effort from Roseland Hospital on the far south side of Chicago. He has written more than once about how hard they are working to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the community - I watched a video he posted of an outreach and honestly it was practically one-on-one in basically a town hall type community meeting. I know Chicago has put a ton of effort into outreach to the minority and disadvantaged communities, partnering with churches and other community groups.
I'll admit, there's no easy answers. I'd like read up on your guy.
From the Charlotte Observer:
As of July 26, 92% of players on the Carolina Panthers' roster were at least partially vaccinated, a vaccination rate trailing only Pittsburgh and Seattle.
On June 9, Panthers quarterback Sam Darnold said he had not gotten the vaccine and was still pondering the decision.
Darnold, Christian McCaffrey and Shaq Thompson all declined to say whether they were vaccinated Tuesday, adding that it was a personal choice. Unvaccinated players are required to wear masks when speaking with the media, a Panthers spokesperson confirmed. Neither Darnold, McCaffrey or Thompson wore a mask when speaking with the media Tuesday.
Panthers offensive tackle Taylor Moton said Tuesday that he was fully vaccinated.
"Personally, I just knew it was going to be a lot smoother going through the season and I was going to be able to do a lot more, and not hold the team back in any way," Moton said. "And also, keep my family safe. Especially the older people in my family."
I appreciate Moton for making his decision public and articulating an intelligent reason for it. I'm disappointed in the others for not speaking out; even if one hesitant person would change his or her mind, it could be a life saved.
Quote from: The Lens on July 27, 2021, 10:11:12 PM
What is so sad to me, and IMO is a huge failing of this admin is the lack of an organized campaign to reach out to people of color. Vaccine benefit awareness should be the biggest PSA in history. African Americans by and large drive cultural trends, why haven't we harnessed those voices from literature, the arts, entertainment and sports to hammer home how we all win with the vaccine. Such a missed opportunity.
This just isn't accurate. They have sponsored PSAs, they have developed messaging tool kits of various types, provided resources for community based orgs to get out and vaccinate people, etc.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 28, 2021, 07:48:39 AM
This just isn't accurate. They have sponsored PSAs, they have developed messaging tool kits of various types, provided resources for community based orgs to get out and vaccinate people, etc.
I talking FLOODING the zone with LeBron, KD, Oprah, The Weeknd, Megan Thee, Micheal B Jordan etc, etc. Billboards all over, targeted social media etc. A very big showy "Dope on the table" type campaign.
IMO, it can't hurt.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 27, 2021, 06:29:37 PM
I'll be in NYC in three weeks. Hope we can actually enjoy our time there.
You'll be fine.
NYC just announced a big concert for Central Park on August 21, including concerts in every borough the day before leading up to this.
Pretty interesting to assume that the way the administration has handled outreach is okay despite the results.
Did they bother asking POC how they get their information or why they're hesitant?
There was an NPR feature the other week that said the majority of Latinos decide for themselves based on what their friends and family are doing. They're not influenced by celebrities or billboards.
Food for thought.
So you believe that a few months of messaging is going to overcome generations of mistrust and hesitancy?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 28, 2021, 12:55:05 PM
So you believe that a few months of messaging is going to overcome generations of mistrust and hesitancy?
Me? Of course not. But learning how people communicate should be step one.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 28, 2021, 12:55:05 PM
So you believe that a few months of messaging is going to overcome generations of mistrust and hesitancy?
No, but in a once in a 100 year pandemic, I'm willing to take every swing I got.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 28, 2021, 12:40:57 PM
Pretty interesting to assume that the way the administration has handled outreach is okay despite the results.
Did they bother asking POC how they get their information or why they're hesitant?
There was an NPR feature the other week that said the majority of Latinos decide for themselves based on what their friends and family are doing. They're not influenced by celebrities or billboards.
Food for thought.
This is a good point. I just found out my good friend's parents, who are African American, got the vaccine. They are both in their mid 70s. This was the the first vaccine they got since polio. And they both have masters degrees. They vaccinated their kids in accordance with school guidelines but remained skeptical themselves due to many of the issues involving the black community we've discussed here. He also said they tried to convince extended family and were largely met with "you guys made a mistake trusting it"
Interesting couple of grafs in a NYT article about some folks -- even Republicans -- losing patience with anti-vaxxers:
The primary cause of all these problems, many experts say, is the large share of Americans who are unvaccinated — about one third of those eligible. The biggest costs of their refusal fall directly on them: They are risking their lives. But vaccinated people also pay a price, through restrictions on daily life — and the increased chances of future outbreaks, which could produce vaccine-resistant variants.
"I think there's some real anger brewing out there among vaccinated folks that's not getting much attention," David Nir, the political director of Daily Kos, wrote. My colleague Roni Caryn Rabin reported, "Many inoculated Americans are losing patience with vaccine holdouts." Kay Ivey, Alabama's Republican governor, was harsher: "Time to start blaming the unvaccinated."
I agree, Kay. And secondarily, I blame those who might be vaccinated but keep defending and/or enabling the selfish anti-vaxxers. "I'm vaccinated, and I think people should get vaccinated, but it's their choice and people should respect that." No, people who actually want a return to normalcy, as they claim, shouldn't respect that.
EU has now administered more doses per capita than the United States.
Quote from: MU82 on July 29, 2021, 09:35:25 AM
I agree, Kay. And secondarily, I blame those who might be vaccinated but keep defending and/or enabling the selfish anti-vaxxers. "I'm vaccinated, and I think people should get vaccinated, but it's their choice and people should respect that." No, people who actually want a return to normalcy, as they claim, shouldn't respect that.
We should all be vocal about that disdain. As I said earlier, those are the people prolonging the epidemic and killing people. They should be publicly shamed and treated as such.
Quote from: Jockey on July 29, 2021, 11:40:41 AM
We should all be vocal about that disdain. As I said earlier, those are the people prolonging the epidemic and killing people. They should be publicly shamed and treated as such.
Just Republicans (as you claim) or are you going to throw Black folks in that hatred?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 29, 2021, 12:19:45 PM
Just Republicans (as you claim) or are you going to throw Black folks in that hatred?
I agree, Zig. Peep the numbers in 53206. This is just as much, if not more of an issue, than the anti-vax right.
Now the CDC dropped this gem:
"UPDATED testing guidance: If a fully vaccinated person has a known exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19,
@CDCgov recommends getting tested 3-5 days after exposure and wearing a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative result."
Right back at square one, giving fuel to the vaccine skeptics. JTFC.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 29, 2021, 12:19:45 PM
Just Republicans (as you claim) or are you going to throw Black folks in that hatred?
All of them.
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 29, 2021, 12:44:34 PM
Now the CDC dropped this gem:
"UPDATED testing guidance: If a fully vaccinated person has a known exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19,
@CDCgov recommends getting tested 3-5 days after exposure and wearing a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative result."
Right back at square one, giving fuel to the vaccine skeptics. JTFC.
Yeah the messaging on this has really gone sideways. My understanding pre-Delta was that it was virtually impossible for a vaccinated person with a breakthrough case to infect another vaccinated person. And the chances are low, but not non-existent that a vaccinated person with a breakthrough case could infect an unvaccinated person - most importantly, kids.
Is the position on that for Delta basically morphing to "we don't know so just wear a mask all the time" ?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on July 29, 2021, 12:19:45 PM
Just Republicans (as you claim) or are you going to throw Black folks in that hatred?
Well, "black folks" that are untrusting are likely going to be made even moreso by conservative spread anti-vax propaganda.
But yes, all unvaccinated are harmful. I would say there's nuance in people's reasoning for remaining unvaccinated though
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 29, 2021, 12:59:19 PM
Is the position on that for Delta basically morphing to "we don't know so just wear a mask all the time" ?
Thats what I fear is coming.
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 29, 2021, 01:04:28 PM
Well, "black folks" that are untrusting are likely going to be made even moreso by conservative spread anti-vax propaganda.
But yes, all unvaccinated are harmful. I would say there's nuance in people's reasoning for remaining unvaccinated though
I don't disagree, but the all or nothing crowd does.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 29, 2021, 12:59:19 PM
Is the position on that for Delta basically morphing to "we don't know so just wear a mask all the time" ?
Delta, then every variant to follow.
If we have to wear a mask again, then let's wear a mask.
It's a once in a 100 year pandemic. 600K Americans are dead. Beating it is going to require some sacrifice. Sorry you're so put out.
Quote from: The Lens on July 29, 2021, 01:59:50 PM
Beating it is going to require some sacrifice.
And what have the majority of people been doing since last March?
Yeah the issue isn't that wearing a mask is hard. It's that we have to wear one because certain segments of our society won't take care of themselves.
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 29, 2021, 02:08:57 PM
And what have the majority of people been doing since last March?
I'm talking to mouth breathers, not you
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 29, 2021, 12:44:34 PM
I agree, Zig. Peep the numbers in 53206. This is just as much, if not more of an issue, than the anti-vax right.
Now the CDC dropped this gem:
"UPDATED testing guidance: If a fully vaccinated person has a known exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19,
@CDCgov recommends getting tested 3-5 days after exposure and wearing a mask in public indoor settings for 14 days or until they receive a negative result."
Right back at square one, giving fuel to the vaccine skeptics. JTFC.
Riiiiiggghhhtt ... this is why there are vaccine skeptics.
Quote from: The Lens on July 29, 2021, 01:59:50 PM
If we have to wear a mask again, then let's wear a mask.
It's a once in a 100 year pandemic. 600K Americans are dead. Beating it is going to require some sacrifice. Sorry you're so put out.
If you are asking everyone to sacrifice, OK.
If only the people who have already sacrificed are being asked to do it again while those that are killing people continue to skate, no thanks.
We had many politicians and TV stations that pushed death, called for more death. Let them sacrifice now.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 29, 2021, 02:22:16 PM
Riiiiiggghhhtt ... this is why there are vaccine skeptics.
That's not what I said, and you know it.
It's another thing for the hesitant to point to and say "Why should I get it, then?"
I'm not defending that POV at all. But when there's this sharp reversal of course, it detracts from their pro-vaccine message.
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 29, 2021, 03:34:26 PM
That's not what I said, and you know it.
It's another thing for the hesitant to point to and say "Why should I get it, then?"
I'm not defending that POV at all. But when there's this sharp reversal of course, it detracts from their pro-vaccine message.
I know what you mean, but the message has to be real. If the virus mutates and vaccinated people transmit. Then we need to change. It doesnt change the fact that it greatly reduces severity and infections.
Scott Gottlieb made a good point that is dead on for Delta. The CDC is a retroactive agency. It studies outbreak and then publishes findings/recommendations. We need something much more proactive so that we arent tacking mid outbreak when it is likely already too late.
Conversely, the guidance will change again and we will learn more....people need to have that mindset and not be 'shocked or offended' when it happens.
The virus is relentless. It will do whatever it takes to survive. Mutate, adapt.
Humans aren't relentless. They won't do whatever it takes to beat the virus. Whine, blame, look for shortcuts, choose ignorance.
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 29, 2021, 03:34:26 PM
That's not what I said, and you know it.
It's another thing for the hesitant to point to and say "Why should I get it, then?"
I'm not defending that POV at all. But when there's this sharp reversal of course, it detracts from their pro-vaccine message.
My point isn't that you're defending their POV. My point is that it's asinine to blame CDC messaging for encouraging or entrenching their POV.
If these people listened to what CDC says or took its messaging seriously, they'd have been vaccinated long ago. But they haven't been vaccinated, because they ignore the CDC.
You can't blame CDC messaging for the behavior of people
who we know ignore CDC messaging.
It's just a false rationalization and feeble excuse for their anti-science stupidity, which in the vast majority of instances is born out of belief in conspiracy theories and junk science, not any legitimate concern about the CDC or its messaging.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 29, 2021, 04:07:32 PM
My point isn't that you're defending their POV. My point is that it's asinine to blame CDC messaging for encouraging or entrenching their POV.
If these people listened to what CDC says or took its messaging seriously, they'd have been vaccinated long ago. But they haven't been vaccinated, because they ignore the CDC.
You can't blame CDC messaging for the behavior of people who we know ignore CDC messaging.
It's just a false rationalization and feeble excuse for their anti-science stupidity, which in the vast majority of instances is born out of belief in conspiracy theories and junk science.
And you know it.
The CDC has opened themselves to being vilified. They've been a disaster from the beginning of the pandemic up to now. A lot of it is political and a lot of it is institutional fear of being over cautious. This began at the CDC a long time ago when it went from an independent entity to a government controlled agency.
That doesn't excuse the anti-science, anti-vax backlash, however. All these things mixed in a cauldron brew a toxic potion
Quote from: MUfan12 on July 29, 2021, 03:34:26 PM
That's not what I said, and you know it.
It's another thing for the hesitant to point to and say "Why should I get it, then?"
I'm not defending that POV at all. But when there's this sharp reversal of course, it detracts from their pro-vaccine message.
No it doesn't.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 29, 2021, 04:13:07 PM
The CDC has opened themselves to being vilified. They've been a disaster from the beginning of the pandemic up to now. A lot of it is political and a lot of it is institutional fear of being over cautious. This began at the CDC a long time ago when it went from an independent entity to a government controlled agency.
That doesn't excuse the anti-science, anti-vax backlash, however. All these things mixed in a cauldron brew a toxic potion
You're not wrong. But it doesn't matter. Anti-vaxxers aren't anti-vaxxers because of anything the CDC has done or failed to do.
People have this mistaken (IMO) idea that if only the CDC had said "X" instead of "Y,"these people would have taken the shot. Maybe in a handful of instances that's true, but the vast, vast majority aren't taking their cues the CDC and never have. Their listening to Facebook or Reddit or OANN, etc.
By and large, these people are well beyond being persuaded by fact and reason. The only thing that might change their minds at this point is they or someone they love ends up in a hospital bed or a coffin.
Quote from: MUBurrow on July 29, 2021, 12:59:19 PM
Yeah the messaging on this has really gone sideways. My understanding pre-Delta was that it was virtually impossible for a vaccinated person with a breakthrough case to infect another vaccinated person. And the chances are low, but not non-existent that a vaccinated person with a breakthrough case could infect an unvaccinated person - most importantly, kids.
Is the position on that for Delta basically morphing to "we don't know so just wear a mask all the time" ?
I think there was widespread misunderstanding of the concept that a vaccinated person with a breakthrough case could not infect others. That was never true.
Breakthrough cases in vaccinated people can most certainly infect others, and has infected others. For symptomatic breakthrough cases the viral load was slightly lower, but most definitely sufficient for being infectious.
The question was whether an asymptomatic breakthrough case could infect others. The early studies of these cases suggested that the viral loads were low enough that the risk of infecting others would be minimal, but non-zero.
For Delta, the viral loads in general are substantially higher. And there is a much higher likelihood of symptomatic breakthrough cases. In these instances, like regular COVID, vaccinated breakthrough cases will be infectious prior to becoming symptomatic. Which means it is essential for people with known exposure to quarantine whether they are vaccinated or not.
It is not a "we don't know." We do know, but definitive confirmation of these things requires a lot of data, and review. Things are now to the point where there is enough internal data to verify how much worse Delta was. The larger datasets essentially confirmed what was being observed in smaller datasets around the world.
How about we come to a compromise:
Vaccine passports that double as voter ID.
Who says no?
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 30, 2021, 08:10:11 AM
How about we come to a compromise:
Vaccine passports that double as voter ID.
Who says no?
I've definitely drifted left politically in the past 5 years but this is still one that I can't wrap my head around. You need an ID for everything. Make them free and create a 4 year clock to requirement. Shouldn't be that hard.
Quote from: The Lens on July 30, 2021, 08:28:34 AM
I've definitely drifted left politically in the past 5 years but this is still one that I can't wrap my head around. You need an ID for everything. Make them free and create a 4 year clock to requirement. Shouldn't be that hard.
The problem is in many rural African American communities, child births were often done at home in the past, and birth certificates weren't exactly obtained. For these individuals, getting an ID is nearly impossible, especially with their income levels.
So do they get excluded? If so it is likely a constitutional violation.
Quote from: The Lens on July 30, 2021, 08:28:34 AM
I've definitely drifted left politically in the past 5 years but this is still one that I can't wrap my head around. You need an ID for everything. Make them free and create a 4 year clock to requirement. Shouldn't be that hard.
You can legally buy a gun in dozens of states (at gun shows, online, in private transactions) without an ID.
If you thought the Venn diagram between these states and the states pushing hardest for voter ID laws looks an awful lot like a circle, you'd be correct.
Biden authorizing $100 for anyone getting vaccinated.
There's the "carrot".
When will the "stick" come out?
Quote from: forgetful on July 30, 2021, 09:16:57 AM
The problem is in many rural African American communities, child births were often done at home in the past, and birth certificates weren't exactly obtained. For these individuals, getting an ID is nearly impossible, especially with their income levels.
So do they get excluded? If so it is likely a constitutional violation.
is this a problem? i hear about it being thrown out there a lot, but haven't seen many documented cases to put it into the category of being a "problem". they mandate an ID for cigarettes for God's sake even when one is clearly over 21. most polls i see show a majority of people in agreement for voter ID. if one can get gubmint assistance, they must have some sort of ID...please
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 30, 2021, 07:46:28 PM
is this a problem? i hear about it being thrown out there a lot, but haven't seen many documented cases to put it into the category of being a "problem". they mandate an ID for cigarettes for God's sake even when one is clearly over 21. most polls i see show a majority of people in agreement for voter ID. if one can get gubmint assistance, they must have some sort of ID...please
So, does this mean you support any populist stance? Or are you merely using this as a data point in your support for voter ID?
Quote from: Pakuni on July 30, 2021, 11:51:14 AM
You can legally buy a gun in dozens of states (at gun shows, online, in private transactions) without an ID.
If you thought the Venn diagram between these states and the states pushing hardest for voter ID laws looks an awful lot like a circle, you'd be correct.
people love to make this argument, but purchases of a gun without an ID amounts to only a "SMALL fraction". unfortunately, the people who use guns to carry out illegal activities probably make up a majority of these.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/feb/22/viral-image/fact-checking-meme-id-requirements-buying-guns-vot/
if you distinguish between licensed and UN-licensed sellers-
"While it is possible in many states to buy a firearm without an ID by seeking out an unlicensed seller, such purchases account for a fraction of all sales. Gun shops and other types of brick-and-mortar stores — where background checks are required — account for a majority of purchases."
Quote from: jesmu84 on July 30, 2021, 07:58:35 PM
So, does this mean you support any populist stance? Or are you merely using this as a data point in your support for voter ID?
not going to step into that steamer, but fwiw, just sayin
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 30, 2021, 08:04:04 PM
not going to step into that steamer, but fwiw, just sayin
So so weak.
The id problem happens more often than you think. In my own extended family, I once went to get a birth certificate for an aunt, back when that's all you needed to drive to Canada. They couldn't find it, until the woman helping me figured out that her birth certificate was registered under her name in Polish, not the English version that we all knew her by and that she had used her entire adult life. In my own case, my parents registered me under Social Security using a shortened version of my actual birth name - I was advised to get it changed before applying for Medicare, which I did.
I remember reading about situations where people used one name and had all their ids under that name their whole life, and then it turned out their birth name was different, their birth certificate was in a different state, and they had great trouble obtaining it.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on July 30, 2021, 08:21:42 PM
So so weak.
i disagree fluffster-sign of strength to know one's limitations. btw, i follow the law, oh, and what's your stance? i'll hang up and listen
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 30, 2021, 09:43:13 PM
i disagree fluffster-sign of strength to know one's limitations. btw, i follow the law, oh, and what's your stance? i'll hang up and listen
Good to know you're in the far right lane then when driving
Quote from: Uncle Rico on July 31, 2021, 05:22:05 AM
Good to know you're in the far right lane then when driving
I don't think golf carts are street legal.
Yipes Wisconsin:
https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1421307620980236288?s=21
Quote from: shoothoops on July 31, 2021, 09:33:32 AM
Yipes Wisconsin:
https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1421307620980236288?s=21
Known far and wide as the "dumbest man in the Senate". He proves it on an almost daily basis.
Quote from: Jockey on July 31, 2021, 02:10:24 PM
Known far and wide as the "dumbest man in the Senate". He proves it on an almost daily basis.
"known far and wide'?? it must be after 12:00
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 31, 2021, 04:43:20 PM
"known far and wide'?? it must be after 12:00
Hate to admit I agree with this POS. Gohmert is BY FAR the dumbest, Johnson is top 3 without a doubt and probably #2.
Quote from: naginiF on July 31, 2021, 05:04:59 PM
Hate to admit I agree with this POS. Gohmert is BY FAR the dumbest, Johnson is top 3 without a doubt and probably #2.
O boy Gohmert is the house, which honestly 1/2 (if not more) are morons (not for their beliefs, but literal dumb dumbs), across party lines
Quote from: reinko on July 31, 2021, 05:20:40 PM
O boy Gohmert is the house, which honestly 1/2 (if not more) are morons (not for their beliefs, but literal dumb dumbs), across party lines
And Gohmert has a lot of company. Ron Johnson is a great disappointment. I admit I voted for him in 2010 because 18 years was enough for his opponent and Johnson seemed genuine. His transformation this last decade is sad. I have little doubt he's compromised in some form.
Where would you put Tommy ' the three branches of government, the House, the Senate and the Executive ' Tuberville in the pantheon? You know, the guy whose father fought in World War II to free us from socialism.....
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/06/30/science.abi7994?utm_campaign=SciMag&utm_source=Social&utm_medium=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0GszTP9HlpFRdwT0Ojxg0YWMn9SUo82IdpLbTsA_VBKm-xzfMV87SUvP8
DiFi ain't getting letters asking her to join Mensa, hey? You know, that whole Chinese spy on her staff for a decade or so.
Quote from: naginiF on July 31, 2021, 05:04:59 PM
Hate to admit I agree with this POS. Gohmert is BY FAR the dumbest, Johnson is top 3 without a doubt and probably #2.
you can disagree with people, but doesn't mean they are "dumb"
just an updated fyi-less than half the "young people" and only about 36% of the african americans are vaccinated. over 92% of "older people are vaccinated. has little to do with party line unless those unvaccinated have swung over to the "good guys" ;D
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 31, 2021, 09:21:33 PM
ust an updated fyi-less than half the "young people" and only about 36% of the african americans are vaccinated. over 92% of "older people are vaccinated. has little to do with party line unless those unvaccinated have swung over to the "good guys" ;D
Are you actually trying to claim there isn't a difference in vaccination rates among political parties?
https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates-is-growing/
I do believe though, that the divide is growing smaller.
Local bar offers $200 to employees who are vaxxed, free admission with proof of shot to customers!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbbUjrgqcf4
Quote from: rocky_warrior on July 31, 2021, 09:26:57 PM
Are you actually trying to claim there isn't a difference in vaccination rates among political parties?
https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates-is-growing/
I do believe though, that the divide is growing smaller.
umm, yes, the truth always prevails
https://www.newsdesk.io/data-shows-its-not-just-republicans-refusing-the-covid-vaccine/
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 31, 2021, 11:52:38 PM
umm, yes, the truth always prevails
https://www.newsdesk.io/data-shows-its-not-just-republicans-refusing-the-covid-vaccine/
You do realize that your article agrees that there's a difference in vaccination rates among political parties. Right?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on August 01, 2021, 12:26:35 AM
You do realize that your article agrees that there's a difference in vaccination rates among political parties. Right?
Of course there are going to be differences, but just not to the extent the "Pravda" has been hammering us with every day. It's not about political party that has been hurting us but key demographic within each party that have. If African American demographic is remiss, one has to believe they are mostly dem voters right? And younger people, if they are of voting age, are probably mostly dem voters
So yeah, the article points out some differences, just not what we have been hammered and hammered with over the past 6 mos that Republicans are responsible for refusing the vax
There are many segmentations that explain slow uptake on the vaccine. Top ones I've seen is political party, education, income, religion and race. Many times someone can represent multiple categories within there. Unfortunately multiple of those cross points coalesce to a major explanation being an R. It doesnt for D even though there are segments that certainly haven't gotten the vaccine.
Unfortunately quantitative analysis doesn't care about sides and apparently feelings.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 01, 2021, 01:14:51 AM
Of course there are going to be differences, but just not to the extent the "Pravda" has been hammering us with every day. It's not about political party that has been hurting us but key demographic within each party that have. If African American demographic is remiss, one has to believe they are mostly dem voters right? And younger people, if they are of voting age, are probably mostly dem voters
So yeah, the article points out some differences, just not what we have been hammered and hammered with over the past 6 mos that Republicans are responsible for refusing the vax
Actually the idea that the press is leading people to believe it is primarily conservatives that are refusing to vaccinate is absolutely false. I know you like to blame the media constantly, but I have seen PLENTY of articles that say it is a widespread problem. For instance, yesterday's New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes
So instead of constantly wasting your breath here complaining about the media, try to get some of your conservative types to get vaccinated. It would be more helpful and less whiney.
Republicans get a bad rap with vaccinations bc people like Tucker Carlson go on tv every night and question vaccines.
You don't have a prominent voice like his in the African American or young people community doing the same.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on July 31, 2021, 11:52:38 PM
umm, yes, the truth always prevails
https://www.newsdesk.io/data-shows-its-not-just-republicans-refusing-the-covid-vaccine/
All of this has been well documented. It's been discussed here often. And it's been acknowledged repeatedly by the legitimate media.
Now, which "side's" political leaders and misinformation outlets have actively, aggressively worked to undermine vaccine distribution and sow doubt about the efficacy of the vaccines these last 6-7 months?
Quote from: MU82 on August 01, 2021, 08:22:56 AM
All of this has been well documented. It's been discussed here often. And it's been acknowledged repeatedly by the legitimate media.
Now, which "side's" political leaders and misinformation outlets have actively, aggressively worked to undermine vaccine distribution and sow doubt about the efficacy of the vaccines these last 6-7 months?
Right. And are blocking vaccine mandates...preventing the UW System from implementing Covid rules...and holding forums claiming that they are unsafe...
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 01, 2021, 01:14:51 AM
Of course there are going to be differences, but just not to the extent the "Pravda" has been hammering us with every day. It's not about political party that has been hurting us but key demographic within each party that have. If African American demographic is remiss, one has to believe they are mostly dem voters right? And younger people, if they are of voting age, are probably mostly dem voters
So yeah, the article points out some differences, just not what we have been hammered and hammered with over the past 6 mos that Republicans are responsible for refusing the vax
Ever just think about taking the loss and moving on?
I will also point out that Murdoch run media has largely been pro-vax in Britain, echoing the messaging of Boris Johnson.
While in the US, Murdoch owned media has been rife with anti-vax conspiracy theorists. I wonder why? It's a mystery.
Anyway, its seems like rocket is right. The media is to blame for something. He's just wrong on the details.
Hmm
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on August 01, 2021, 07:56:09 AM
Actually the idea that the press is leading people to believe it is primarily conservatives that are refusing to vaccinate is absolutely false. I know you like to blame the media constantly, but I have seen PLENTY of articles that say it is a widespread problem. For instance, yesterday's New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes
So instead of constantly wasting your breath here complaining about the media, try to get some of your conservative types to get vaccinated. It would be more helpful and less whiney.
i'm not whiney, i just don't trust our media as most "thinking" people do either. there is a large segment that loves to sow divisions among us as opposed to bring us together. you can see it in this board. look at retireO's comment-he'd rather some just shut up because he doesn't want to hear anything different than what he's been indoctrinated with.
there is nothing wrong with questions. as we found out, the "experts" are not experts. naturally, we seek safe havens. we gravitate toward those who make sense to us. when we hear conflicting answers, more questions are going to be sought to be answered. when there's push back, it creates more questions and then doubt. when some are deified while others are shunned, more questions are created and trusts are violated. whose interests are being satiated? follow the money? do as i say and not as i do knows no bonds.
the seeds of division were sown before jan. 6. asking those in opposition to #45 and they sent out a blow horn message that the vaccine was not to be trusted. now...??
there are also many people who are fearful of anything they put into their bodies. now you want to FORCE something? this crosses political lines
for many people, we are still only the 3rd phase of trials for the vaccines
many want to see the source of this virus punished. we as a world need to unify against china for which words have no justification. if we do not push for resolutions and "reparations" on this, it WILL happen again. once again, follow the money and the control
as for your answer sully-" I know you like to blame the media constantly, but I have seen PLENTY of articles that say it is a widespread problem. For instance, yesterday's New York Times."
they all do it answer rings very hollow and lazy. there are no more standards for our media to follow as they once used to-case in point-don lemon, jim acosta, chris cuomo et.al. purport to be a "journalists" tucker carlson and laura ingraham are pundits
unless questions are raised, we will only continue to be pawns. for some to be censored on social media raises alarm bells. not that they can or cannot be censored, but the reasons and subjects they are being censored for does not help the cause
if you want to go with the status quo here, then you are not part of the solution
https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1421825159917342726
I love Scotty. Glad to see some trusted voices are now highlighting those that die from Covid and those that die with Covid.
I'd be interested in the breakthrough cases by vaccine. With J&J being 65% effective in preventing disease, I would imagine most cases are coming from that, which would be expected. Still preventing serious illness and death. Also, I haven't read if J&J is as effective against Deta as the MRNA vaccines.
Maybe I'm interpreting the math wrong, but think we are seeing that with the Brewers. They just had 2 guys go on the IL who were vaccinated and Yelich who was vaccinated. I know the Brewers were vaccinated with J&J, so would assume Yelich was. I don't think the other two were up at the time. However, if an entire team is vaccinated with J&J and has a breakthrough case, it's likely to result in a few other positives, but not serious illness.
Granted this wouldn't be a great headline to sell papers. "Vaccines working as we expected. Go get vaccinated."
Also, rocket, that nickname is totally inappropriate and should be deleted.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 01, 2021, 09:42:58 AM
i'm not whiney, i just don't trust our media as most "thinking" people do either. there is a large segment that loves to sow divisions among us as opposed to bring us together. you can see it in this board. look at retardO's comment-he'd rather some just shut up because he doesn't want to hear anything different than what he's been indoctrinated with.
there is nothing wrong with questions. as we found out, the "experts" are not experts. naturally, we seek safe havens. we gravitate toward those who make sense to us. when we hear conflicting answers, more questions are going to be sought to be answered. when there's push back, it creates more questions and then doubt. when some are deified while others are shunned, more questions are created and trusts are violated. whose interests are being satiated? follow the money? do as i say and not as i do knows no bonds.
the seeds of division were sown before jan. 6. asking those in opposition to #45 and they sent out a blow horn message that the vaccine was not to be trusted. now...??
there are also many people who are fearful of anything they put into their bodies. now you want to FORCE something? this crosses political lines
for many people, we are still only the 3rd phase of trials for the vaccines
many want to see the source of this virus punished. we as a world need to unify against china for which words have no justification. if we do not push for resolutions and "reparations" on this, it WILL happen again. once again, follow the money and the control
as for your answer sully-" I know you like to blame the media constantly, but I have seen PLENTY of articles that say it is a widespread problem. For instance, yesterday's New York Times."
they all do it answer rings very hollow and lazy. there are no more standards for our media to follow as they once used to-case in point-don lemon, jim acosta, chris cuomo et.al. purport to be a "journalists" tucker carlson and laura ingraham are pundits
unless questions are raised, we will only continue to be pawns. for some to be censored on social media raises alarm bells. not that they can or cannot be censored, but the reasons and subjects they are being censored for does not help the cause
if you want to go with the status quo here, then you are not part of the solution
Yea rocket. You are the wise and discerning one here. Lol.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 01, 2021, 09:42:58 AM
i'm not whiney, i just don't trust our media as most "thinking" people do either. there is a large segment that loves to sow divisions among us as opposed to bring us together. you can see it in this board. look at retireO's comment-he'd rather some just shut up because he doesn't want to hear anything different than what he's been indoctrinated with.
there is nothing wrong with questions. as we found out, the "experts" are not experts. naturally, we seek safe havens. we gravitate toward those who make sense to us. when we hear conflicting answers, more questions are going to be sought to be answered. when there's push back, it creates more questions and then doubt. when some are deified while others are shunned, more questions are created and trusts are violated. whose interests are being satiated? follow the money? do as i say and not as i do knows no bonds.
the seeds of division were sown before jan. 6. asking those in opposition to #45 and they sent out a blow horn message that the vaccine was not to be trusted. now...??
there are also many people who are fearful of anything they put into their bodies. now you want to FORCE something? this crosses political lines
for many people, we are still only the 3rd phase of trials for the vaccines
many want to see the source of this virus punished. we as a world need to unify against china for which words have no justification. if we do not push for resolutions and "reparations" on this, it WILL happen again. once again, follow the money and the control
as for your answer sully-" I know you like to blame the media constantly, but I have seen PLENTY of articles that say it is a widespread problem. For instance, yesterday's New York Times."
they all do it answer rings very hollow and lazy. there are no more standards for our media to follow as they once used to-case in point-don lemon, jim acosta, chris cuomo et.al. purport to be a "journalists" tucker carlson and laura ingraham are pundits
unless questions are raised, we will only continue to be pawns. for some to be censored on social media raises alarm bells. not that they can or cannot be censored, but the reasons and subjects they are being censored for does not help the cause
if you want to go with the status quo here, then you are not part of the solution
Right on time. Thanks for illustrating the point.
Even before removing "retard0" from the original post, it's high comedy. I appreciate you, keeps perspective for the rest of us in a world of algorithmic echo chambers.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 01, 2021, 09:42:58 AM
i'm not whiney, i just don't trust our media as most "thinking" people do either. there is a large segment that loves to sow divisions among us as opposed to bring us together. you can see it in this board. look at retireO's comment-he'd rather some just shut up because he doesn't want to hear anything different than what he's been indoctrinated with.
there is nothing wrong with questions. as we found out, the "experts" are not experts. naturally, we seek safe havens. we gravitate toward those who make sense to us. when we hear conflicting answers, more questions are going to be sought to be answered. when there's push back, it creates more questions and then doubt. when some are deified while others are shunned, more questions are created and trusts are violated. whose interests are being satiated? follow the money? do as i say and not as i do knows no bonds.
the seeds of division were sown before jan. 6. asking those in opposition to #45 and they sent out a blow horn message that the vaccine was not to be trusted. now...??
there are also many people who are fearful of anything they put into their bodies. now you want to FORCE something? this crosses political lines
for many people, we are still only the 3rd phase of trials for the vaccines
many want to see the source of this virus punished. we as a world need to unify against china for which words have no justification. if we do not push for resolutions and "reparations" on this, it WILL happen again. once again, follow the money and the control
as for your answer sully-" I know you like to blame the media constantly, but I have seen PLENTY of articles that say it is a widespread problem. For instance, yesterday's New York Times."
they all do it answer rings very hollow and lazy. there are no more standards for our media to follow as they once used to-case in point-don lemon, jim acosta, chris cuomo et.al. purport to be a "journalists" tucker carlson and laura ingraham are pundits
unless questions are raised, we will only continue to be pawns. for some to be censored on social media raises alarm bells. not that they can or cannot be censored, but the reasons and subjects they are being censored for does not help the cause
if you want to go with the status quo here, then you are not part of the solution
Eat at Arby's
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 01, 2021, 09:42:58 AM
i'm not whiney, i just don't trust our media as most "thinking" people do either. there is a large segment that loves to sow divisions among us as opposed to bring us together.
This.Is.Awesome.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 01, 2021, 09:42:58 AM
i'm not whiney, i just don't trust our media as most "thinking" people do either. there is a large segment that loves to sow divisions among us as opposed to bring us together. you can see it in this board. look at retireO's comment-he'd rather some just shut up because he doesn't want to hear anything different than what he's been indoctrinated with.
there is nothing wrong with questions. as we found out, the "experts" are not experts. naturally, we seek safe havens. we gravitate toward those who make sense to us. when we hear conflicting answers, more questions are going to be sought to be answered. when there's push back, it creates more questions and then doubt. when some are deified while others are shunned, more questions are created and trusts are violated. whose interests are being satiated? follow the money? do as i say and not as i do knows no bonds.
the seeds of division were sown before jan. 6. asking those in opposition to #45 and they sent out a blow horn message that the vaccine was not to be trusted. now...??
there are also many people who are fearful of anything they put into their bodies. now you want to FORCE something? this crosses political lines
for many people, we are still only the 3rd phase of trials for the vaccines
many want to see the source of this virus punished. we as a world need to unify against china for which words have no justification. if we do not push for resolutions and "reparations" on this, it WILL happen again. once again, follow the money and the control
as for your answer sully-" I know you like to blame the media constantly, but I have seen PLENTY of articles that say it is a widespread problem. For instance, yesterday's New York Times."
they all do it answer rings very hollow and lazy. there are no more standards for our media to follow as they once used to-case in point-don lemon, jim acosta, chris cuomo et.al. purport to be a "journalists" tucker carlson and laura ingraham are pundits
unless questions are raised, we will only continue to be pawns. for some to be censored on social media raises alarm bells. not that they can or cannot be censored, but the reasons and subjects they are being censored for does not help the cause
if you want to go with the status quo here, then you are not part of the solution
Brother, once you realize you're the one who is absolutely lost in the sauce you might come back around.
Also, your license to practice should be revoked. I'd be terrified to let you make a medical decision for anyone I know.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 01, 2021, 11:51:34 AM
Brother, once you realize you're the one who is absolutely lost in the sauce you might come back around.
Also, your license to practice should be revoked. I'd be terrified to let you make a medical decision for anyone I know.
Maybe keefe will contact the Department of Safety and Public Services this time.
Representative Gosar, is that you?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 01, 2021, 09:49:35 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1421825159917342726
I love Scotty. Glad to see some trusted voices are now highlighting those that die from Covid and those that die with Covid.
Your statement isn't the same thing as what Scott said. He indicated that detection of COVID was secondary to the primary cause of hospitalization or death.
So for instance, a person could have a heart attack and be hospitalized. From routine testing they determine that they had COVID. They could still die from COVID after hospitalization for the primary event.
For asymptomatic cases, obviously they are not dying from COVID. But at no time during the pandemic would an asymptomatic individual have been counted as a COVID death, no matter how much you or the right-wing media want to believe it.
I think gottliebs statement is nothing more than statistical reassurance that the vaccine works.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 01, 2021, 05:42:17 PM
I think gottliebs statement is nothing more than statistical reassurance that the vaccine works.
I agree. His statement is correct and accurate. That doesn't stop it from already being used as proof to conspiracy theories where people believe no one actually dies from COVID.
Just like people are now saying that the development of PCR tests that can simultaneously differentiate flu vs COVID, is proof that the tests were flawed...inaccurate, and more. Too many people not understanding the data/science blatantly manipulating statements/data to support their agendas.
Good opinion piece about the possibility of unvaccinated people getting COVID-19 getting punished with higher insurance rates:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/opinion/health-insurance-unvaccinated.html?action=click&campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20210803&instance_id=36960&module=Opinion&nl=dealbook&pgtype=Homepage®i_id=108420427&segment_id=65203&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
This paragraph did a good job of capturing my thoughts in response to: "But who are they hurting but themselves?"
The logic behind the policies is that the offenders' behavior can hurt others and costs society a lot of money. If a person decides not to get vaccinated and contracts a bad case of Covid, they are not only exposing others in their workplace or neighborhoods; the tens or hundreds of thousands spent on their care could mean higher premiums for others as well in their insurance plans next year. What's more, outbreaks in low-vaccination regions could help breed more vaccine-resistant variants that affect everyone.
Yep. Some of the same people who are constantly whining about "lazy" folks collecting unemployment or about "welfare cheats" ... well, they don't seem to have a problem with these selfish weasels running up everybody's insurance costs. Not to mention them spreading potential horrific variants of the virus to all of us.
A thousand times, yes. Plenty of employers/insurers charge more for health insurance if you are a smoker. Absolutely they should charge more for the unvaccinated.
Or develop a new service tier .. "In-Network" and "out-of-network" have different rates to push you to use network providers because the network is far less expensive. You know what's also 9999x less expensive? Getting a $20 vaccination instead of going to the hospital for 3 weeks.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/teachers-unions-opposing-vaccine-mandate-schools-open-closed.html
Damn Republican virus huggers.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 03, 2021, 06:25:06 PM
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/teachers-unions-opposing-vaccine-mandate-schools-open-closed.html
Damn Republican virus huggers.
Not a single person here said only Republicans were foolishly opposing vaccines.
What we said was that many Republican political leaders and right-wing media outlets are actively trying to undermine the distribution of these life-saving vaccines.
As for specifics of that article ...
Teachers should be vaccinated. Period.
Quote from: MU82 on August 03, 2021, 09:04:07 PM
Not a single person here said only Republicans were foolishly opposing vaccines.
What we said was that many Republican political leaders and right-wing media outlets are actively trying to undermine the distribution of these life-saving vaccines.
As for specifics of that article ...
Teachers should be vaccinated. Period.
From what I've seen damn near all Republican leaders are lock step with the opinion of the teacher unions. They support the vaccine, believe it saves lives, but are against any sort of mandate for it.
I'm sure you can point to a few yahoo Republican leaders who might have actually said they don't believe in the vaccine but every party has their wing nut members. I'd be shocked to see an actual quote or article from a Republican gov, senator, etc who has said they don't believe in the efficacy of the vaccine.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 03, 2021, 09:24:50 PM
From what I've seen damn near all Republican leaders are lock step with the opinion of the teacher unions. They support the vaccine, believe it saves lives, but are against any sort of mandate for it.
I'm sure you can point to a few yahoo Republican leaders who might have actually said they don't believe in the vaccine but every party has their wing nut members. I'd be shocked to see an actual quote or article from a Republican gov, senator, etc who has said they don't believe in the efficacy of the vaccine.
Unions also likely have a secondary motive here. They don't want to "agree" to something without getting something in return. Everything is a negotiation for them.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 03, 2021, 09:24:50 PM
I'd be shocked to see an actual quote or article from a Republican gov, senator, etc who has said they don't believe in the efficacy of the vaccine.
You're kidding, right? At CPAC, for example, they marched out one after another who mocked the very idea of the vaccine and efforts to get it distributed, and they got standing ovations for their idiocy. Many have actively, aggressively sowed doubt in the efficacy of the vaccine.
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 02:36:15 AM
You're kidding, right? At CPAC, for example, they marched out one after another who mocked the very idea of the vaccine and efforts to get it distributed, and they got standing ovations for their idiocy. Many have actively, aggressively sowed doubt in the efficacy of the vaccine.
I'm not saying one or a handful of the speakers didn't do what your saying but there are a lot more then just elected officials speaking at CPAC.
Is there a link or article you could send over, I can't find anything.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 06:16:26 AM
I'm not saying one or a handful of the speakers didn't do what your saying but there are a lot more then just elected officials speaking at CPAC.
Is there a link or article you could send over, I can't find anything.
Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.) on Monday joined a growing wing of the GOP expressing skepticism about coronavirus vaccines, blasting them as "experimental" while urging President Joe Biden to reverse a mask mandate for unvaccinated soldiers on a base in Alabama.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/07/19/gop-rep-brooks-pushes-anti-vaccine-talking-points-in-letter-to-biden/
Quote from: Pakuni on August 04, 2021, 07:21:27 AM
Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.) on Monday joined a growing wing of the GOP expressing skepticism about coronavirus vaccines, blasting them as "experimental" while urging President Joe Biden to reverse a mask mandate for unvaccinated soldiers on a base in Alabama.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/07/19/gop-rep-brooks-pushes-anti-vaccine-talking-points-in-letter-to-biden/
Sweet home Alabama!!! Didn't see this and definitely don't agree with it. I'll be sure to not support him in his run for senate.
The only other reference to an elected official that they called a "growing list" was Massie from Kentucky who is against mandating military from having to get the vaccine. I know there are a lot who don't support mandates but if Mo Brooks is the only one I think it's safe to say both parties are pretty well aligned behind getting the vaccine.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/nation/2021/07/31/unvaccinated-las-vegas-man-died-regretting-not-getting-vaccine-fiance/5442240001/
Quote from: warriorchick on August 04, 2021, 07:44:14 AM
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/nation/2021/07/31/unvaccinated-las-vegas-man-died-regretting-not-getting-vaccine-fiance/5442240001/
Terribly story, read this yesterday. Unfortunately I feel like there is a good % of people out there just like this family who have decided to wait for a bit before being fully comfortable with getting the vaccine.
Science is real, unfortunately, so is stupidity, hey?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 07:32:32 AM
Sweet home Alabama!!! Didn't see this and definitely don't agree with it. I'll be sure to not support him in his run for senate.
The only other reference to an elected official that they called a "growing list" was Massie from Kentucky who is against mandating military from having to get the vaccine. I know there are a lot who don't support mandates but if Mo Brooks is the only one I think it's safe to say both parties are pretty well aligned behind getting the vaccine.
Ron Johnson hasn't exactly been helpful.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 06:16:26 AM
I'm not saying one or a handful of the speakers didn't do what your saying but there are a lot more then just elected officials speaking at CPAC.
Is there a link or article you could send over, I can't find anything.
Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself. I mean, the idiot rep from Colorado, Lauren Boebert, all but did a song and dance ripping into the "Fauci Ouchie." DeSantis is selling anti-vaccine stuff to raise campaign funds. So many others. Learn how to use the googles.
And then there's this:
Ten states have passed legislation to prohibit schools, businesses and state governments from mandating the vaccine, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Fourteen have passed legislation to prohibit vaccine passports or proof of vaccination in general.
"If you aren't going to help," Biden said, addressing the governors of these states, "at least get out of the way of the people who are trying to do the right thing."The president is right. These governors aren't leaders ... unless you're talking about leading their death cult into the grave.
Why do you keep making excuses for these misguided, hyper-partisan people?
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 11:24:07 AM
Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself. I mean, the idiot rep from Colorado, Lauren Boebert, all but did a song and dance ripping into the "Fauci Ouchie." DeSantis is selling anti-vaccine stuff to raise campaign funds. So many others. Learn how to use the googles.
And then there's this:
Ten states have passed legislation to prohibit schools, businesses and state governments from mandating the vaccine, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Fourteen have passed legislation to prohibit vaccine passports or proof of vaccination in general.
"If you aren't going to help," Biden said, addressing the governors of these states, "at least get out of the way of the people who are trying to do the right thing."
The president is right. These governors aren't leaders ... unless you're talking about leading their death cult into the grave.
Why do you keep making excuses for these misguided, hyper-partisan people?
You're either a madman or not reading what I'm posting. I acknowledge many (R)s are against mandating it, just like the teachers union which is why I said they're lock stop.
I also acknowledged there are a couple crazies in the party which isn't unique to the Republican Party. Thankfully no one is taking their marching orders from the first term congresswoman Boebert. Being against a vaccine mandate/passport is not being against the vaccine.
That's not true about DeSantis either which has already been discussed.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 11:43:37 AM
You're either a madman or not reading what I'm posting. I acknowledge many (R)s are against mandating it, just like the teachers union which is why I said they're lock stop.
I also acknowledged there are a couple crazies in the party which isn't unique to the Republican Party. Thankfully no one is taking their marching orders from the first term congresswoman Boebert. Being against a vaccine mandate/passport is not being against the vaccine.
That's not true about DeSantis either which has already been discussed.
Governors and other legislative leaders saying "Folks should get the vaccine" and then actively working against getting people vaccinated might be even worse than what the "crazies" are saying. It's disingenuous at best, extremely dangerous at worst.
Stop being a "madman." Stop supporting them.
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 11:24:07 AM
Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself.
Nah, he's achieving exactly what he aimed to do.
Advocate Aurora Health just announced mandatory vaccination for its employees.
Good
Do not suspend people who refuse. Fire them.
Quote from: Jockey on August 04, 2021, 01:55:13 PM
Do not suspend people who refuse. Fire them.
That's actually what I'm seeing come out. 28 days to get the jabs, then 30 days unpaid leave to think it over, then termination.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 11:43:37 AM
You're either a madman or not reading what I'm posting. I acknowledge many (R)s are against mandating it, just like the teachers union which is why I said they're lock stop.
I also acknowledged there are a couple crazies in the party which isn't unique to the Republican Party. Thankfully no one is taking their marching orders from the first term congresswoman Boebert. Being against a vaccine mandate/passport is not being against the vaccine.
That's not true about DeSantis either which has already been discussed.
This guy? 'I am standing in your way': DeSantis blasts Biden after president tells him to 'get out of the way' on COVID
DeSantis veered away from the economy and instead blasted President Joe Biden "importing more virus from around the world" via illegal immigrants.
The governor said people are "pouring through."
"He's facilitating," DeSantis said. "Whatever variants are around the world, they're coming across that southern border. He's not shutting down the virus, he's helping to facilitate it."
Yeah, its the people pouring over the border that is making Florida number 1 in new infections. ::)
Quote from: warriorchick on August 04, 2021, 01:45:19 PM
Advocate Aurora Health just announced mandatory vaccination for its employees.
Good
My firm announced the same this week. We tried carrots in the form of gift cards and got a very good response (85% with at least one shot), now it is stick time.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 04, 2021, 01:59:30 PM
This guy? 'I am standing in your way': DeSantis blasts Biden after president tells him to 'get out of the way' on COVID
DeSantis veered away from the economy and instead blasted President Joe Biden "importing more virus from around the world" via illegal immigrants.
The governor said people are "pouring through."
"He's facilitating," DeSantis said. "Whatever variants are around the world, they're coming across that southern border. He's not shutting down the virus, he's helping to facilitate it."
Yeah, its the people pouring over the border that is making Florida number 1 in new infections. ::)
Are you saying there is no Florida-Mexico border?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on August 04, 2021, 01:59:07 PM
That's actually what I'm seeing come out. 28 days to get the jabs, then 30 days unpaid leave to think it over, then termination.
legit.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on August 04, 2021, 01:59:07 PM
That's actually what I'm seeing come out. 28 days to get the jabs, then 30 days unpaid leave to think it over, then termination.
That seems pretty generous to me. I would do six weeks to get your shots (one or both, as applicable) or you are done on day 43.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 04, 2021, 01:59:30 PM
This guy? 'I am standing in your way': DeSantis blasts Biden after president tells him to 'get out of the way' on COVID
DeSantis veered away from the economy and instead blasted President Joe Biden "importing more virus from around the world" via illegal immigrants.
The governor said people are "pouring through."
"He's facilitating," DeSantis said. "Whatever variants are around the world, they're coming across that southern border. He's not shutting down the virus, he's helping to facilitate it."
Yeah, its the people pouring over the border that is making Florida number 1 in new infections. ::)
DeSantis is "facilitating" the deaths of Floridians; and just like his mentor, he's a narcissistic liar.
He is actively, aggressively working to prevent vaccinations from taking place in Florida, despite sometimes saying otherwise.
Blaming infections in Florida and Missouri on what's happening at "the border" is just like constantly invoking "cancel culture" or "Critical Race Theory" or "they're coming for your guns" or "shariah law!" It's GOP Fearmongering 101 at heart, but it's been nuclearized by Trumpism.
Always, always, always, FEAR THE "OTHER!" because he wants to rape your women, eat your babies and steal your Ozzie & Harriet image of American life.
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
DeSantis is "facilitating" the deaths of Floridians; and just like his mentor, he's a narcissistic liar.
He is actively, aggressively working to prevent vaccinations from taking place in Florida, despite sometimes saying otherwise.
Blaming infections in Florida and Missouri on what's happening at "the border" is just like constantly invoking "cancel culture" or "Critical Race Theory" or "they're coming for your guns" or "shariah law!" It's GOP Fearmongering 101 at heart, but it's been nuclearized by Trumpism.
Always, always, always, FEAR THE "OTHER!" because he wants to rape your women, eat your babies and steal your Ozzie & Harriet image of American life.
Asking because I don't know. How is he preventing vaccinations? I know he isn't incentivizing them or making life more difficult on the unvaccinated, but didn't know he was preventing them.
Quote from: cheebs09 on August 04, 2021, 04:57:30 PM
Asking because I don't know. How is he preventing vaccinations? I know he isn't incentivizing them or making life more difficult on the unvaccinated, but didn't know he was preventing them.
He is not allowing private businesses to mandate vaccinations.
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 05:16:14 PM
He is not allowing private businesses to mandate vaccinations.
Find me that language. Because he doesn't have that power.
Someone is reading his executive order incorrectly. The EO only says that businesses can't mandate it for their customers, or that if they do they won't get state grants or checks.
He has the power to say that the GOVERNMENT won't mandate them only.
https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf sorry, forgot to add my source.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 04, 2021, 05:45:08 PM
Find me that language. Because he doesn't have that power.
Someone is reading his executive order incorrectly. The EO only says that businesses can't mandate it for their customers, or that if they do they won't get state grants or checks.
He has the power to say that the GOVERNMENT won't mandate them only.
https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf sorry, forgot to add my source.
Knock me over with a feather. MU82 ran with a talking point he heard on cable news that turns out to be at best a half truth.
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 11:24:07 AM
Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself. I mean, the idiot rep from Colorado, Lauren Boebert, all but did a song and dance ripping into the "Fauci Ouchie." DeSantis is selling anti-vaccine stuff to raise campaign funds. So many others. Learn how to use the googles.
And then there's this:
Ten states have passed legislation to prohibit schools, businesses and state governments from mandating the vaccine, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Fourteen have passed legislation to prohibit vaccine passports or proof of vaccination in general.
"If you aren't going to help," Biden said, addressing the governors of these states, "at least get out of the way of the people who are trying to do the right thing."
The president is right. These governors aren't leaders ... unless you're talking about leading their death cult into the grave.
Why do you keep making excuses for these misguided, hyper-partisan people?
Is this the same president who's allowing covid positive immigrants to cross the border from Mexico, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 05:16:14 PM
He is not allowing private businesses to mandate vaccinations.
Ok, so just a different definition of preventing I was using. I thought of preventing as doing something to impede people who wanted the vaccine from getting it.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 04, 2021, 06:53:30 PM
Is this the same president who's allowing covid positive immigrants to cross the border from Mexico, hey?
Yes and then he takes there guns and bibles and makes them gender neutral, too. Sad!
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 04, 2021, 05:45:08 PM
Find me that language. Because he doesn't have that power.
Someone is reading his executive order incorrectly. The EO only says that businesses can't mandate it for their customers, or that if they do they won't get state grants or checks.
He has the power to say that the GOVERNMENT won't mandate them only.
https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf sorry, forgot to add my source.
Yes, he is working aggressively to prevent private businesses from mandating vaccines. It's right in the order.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 06:23:12 PM
Knock me over with a feather. MU82 ran with a talking point he heard on cable news that turns out to be at best a half truth.
I was right. Read the order. Stop supporting politicians who are undermining the vaccination distribution.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 04, 2021, 06:53:30 PM
Is this the same president who's allowing covid positive immigrants to cross the border from Mexico, hey?
Nonsensical dribble, as usual, nu?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 04, 2021, 06:53:30 PM
Is this the same president who's allowing covid positive immigrants to cross the border from Mexico, hey?
So I'm sure you agree anyone within our borders should be vaccinated.
Quote from: warriorchick on August 04, 2021, 01:45:19 PM
Advocate Aurora Health just announced mandatory vaccination for its employees.
Good
Detailed announcement. The mandate includes remote workers and those who have no direct patient contact.
https://www.advocateaurorahealth.org/news/advocate-aurora-health-announces-covid-19-vaccination-requirement-for-team-members
Texas GOP Official Mocked COVID Five Days Before He Died of Virus
A GOP official from Texas who regularly espoused anti-vaccine and anti-mask views online has died from COVID-19, five days after posting a meme on Facebook questioning the wisdom of getting inoculated against COVID.
Apley is a staunch conservative and devout Christian. But based on his social media activity, Apley didn't believe COVID was going to affect him or his family.
In May, Apley posted an invitation for a "mask burning" being held at a bar in Cincinnati, commenting, "I wish I lived in the area!" A couple of weeks earlier, he posted a news article about giveaways and incentives meant to encourage people to get vaccinated, writing, "Disgusting." Apley also railed against so-called vaccine passports, which restrict high-risk activities, such as indoor dining, to the fully vaccinated.
Recently, he suggested that mask mandates in Germany were akin to Nazism.
https://www.galvnews.com/news/free/article_ecb2fe5f-cee6-5106-9fdb-13b09245ab72.html
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 04, 2021, 09:06:38 PM
Texas GOP Official Mocked COVID Five Days Before He Died of Virus
A GOP official from Texas who regularly espoused anti-vaccine and anti-mask views online has died from COVID-19, five days after posting a meme on Facebook questioning the wisdom of getting inoculated against COVID.
Apley is a staunch conservative and devout Christian. But based on his social media activity, Apley didn't believe COVID was going to affect him or his family.
In May, Apley posted an invitation for a "mask burning" being held at a bar in Cincinnati, commenting, "I wish I lived in the area!" A couple of weeks earlier, he posted a news article about giveaways and incentives meant to encourage people to get vaccinated, writing, "Disgusting." Apley also railed against so-called vaccine passports, which restrict high-risk activities, such as indoor dining, to the fully vaccinated.
Recently, he suggested that mask mandates in Germany were akin to Nazism.
https://www.galvnews.com/news/free/article_ecb2fe5f-cee6-5106-9fdb-13b09245ab72.html
Don't hate to see it.
Quote from: Retire0 on August 04, 2021, 09:09:45 PM
Don't hate to see it.
New father, sad story. You are one sick puppy celebrating the death of what appeared to be a good man so you can make yourself feel better or score cheap political points. #curapersonalis
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 09:36:54 PM
New father, sad story. You are one sick puppy celebrating the death of what appeared to be a good man so you can make yourself feel better or score cheap political points. #curapersonalis
How exactly was someone who mocked and spewed hate a good man in your books?
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 04, 2021, 09:48:30 PM
How exactly was someone who mocked and spewed hate a good man in your books?
Because of what was said about him in the story. Despite the mocking and less then kind words shared by posters here I hope everyone lives better lives out in the real world.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 09:36:54 PM
New father, sad story. You are one sick puppy celebrating the death of what appeared to be a good man so you can make yourself feel better or score cheap political points. #curapersonalis
No, that's bad man spreading disinformation to people that need to be encouraged otherwise.
No one is celebrating, but can't say it wasn't coming. Hopefully his followers learn from his fatal mistake.
The virus doesn't care about your political beliefs, don't let your political beliefs let the virus get the best of you.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 09:56:01 PM
Because of what was said about him in the story. Despite the mocking and less then kind words shared by posters here I hope everyone lives better lives out in the real world.
He didn't. He mocked and had unkind things to say about people. But he's a good guy in your eyes. Odd.
In May, Apley posted an invitation for a "mask burning" being held at a bar in Cincinnati, commenting, "I wish I lived in the area!" A couple of weeks earlier, he posted a news article about giveaways and incentives meant to encourage people to get vaccinated, writing, "Disgusting." Apley also railed against so-called vaccine passports, which restrict high-risk activities, such as indoor dining, to the fully vaccinated.
Recently, he suggested that mask mandates in Germany were akin to Nazism. And when former Baltimore health commissioner Leana Wen celebrated good news this spring about the Pfizer vaccine's efficacy, a seemingly outraged Apley called her "an absolute enemy of a free people."
Quote from: Retire0 on August 04, 2021, 10:09:42 PM
No, that's bad man spreading disinformation to people that need to be encouraged otherwise.
No one is celebrating, but can't say it wasn't coming. Hopefully his followers learn from his fatal mistake.
His followers?!?!?!? He was a fricking city councilman, goodness.
The virus doesn't care about your political beliefs, don't let your political beliefs let the virus get the best of you.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 04, 2021, 10:09:58 PM
He didn't. He mocked and had unkind things to say about people. But he's a good guy in your eyes. Odd.
In May, Apley posted an invitation for a "mask burning" being held at a bar in Cincinnati, commenting, "I wish I lived in the area!" A couple of weeks earlier, he posted a news article about giveaways and incentives meant to encourage people to get vaccinated, writing, "Disgusting." Apley also railed against so-called vaccine passports, which restrict high-risk activities, such as indoor dining, to the fully vaccinated.
Recently, he suggested that mask mandates in Germany were akin to Nazism. And when former Baltimore health commissioner Leana Wen celebrated good news this spring about the Pfizer vaccine's efficacy, a seemingly outraged Apley called her "an absolute enemy of a free people."
Thanks for essentially repeating your earlier post.
Over 3,000 followers on his socials, yeah, not a good guy.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 04, 2021, 10:09:58 PM
He didn't. He mocked and had unkind things to say about people. But he's a good guy in your eyes. Odd.
In May, Apley posted an invitation for a "mask burning" being held at a bar in Cincinnati, commenting, "I wish I lived in the area!" A couple of weeks earlier, he posted a news article about giveaways and incentives meant to encourage people to get vaccinated, writing, "Disgusting." Apley also railed against so-called vaccine passports, which restrict high-risk activities, such as indoor dining, to the fully vaccinated.
Recently, he suggested that mask mandates in Germany were akin to Nazism. And when former Baltimore health commissioner Leana Wen celebrated good news this spring about the Pfizer vaccine's efficacy, a seemingly outraged Apley called her "an absolute enemy of a free people."
Why are you plagiarizing the Daily Beast?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/h-scott-apley-chair-of-galveston-county-texas-gop-mocked-covid-days-before-he-died-of-virus (https://www.thedailybeast.com/h-scott-apley-chair-of-galveston-county-texas-gop-mocked-covid-days-before-he-died-of-virus)
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 09:36:54 PM
New father, sad story. You are one sick puppy celebrating the death of what appeared to be a good man so you can make yourself feel better or score cheap political points. #curapersonalis
Sounds like Apley was a truly terrible human being who didn't care about truth or about the lives of his fellow human being.
But yes, it's still sad he died of the virus he mocked. I sincerely wish that hadn't happened.
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 04, 2021, 08:25:09 PM
So I'm sure you agree anyone within our borders should be vaccinated.
Got no problem with the 'hole fookin' adult wurld gettin' poked, hey?
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 08:04:09 PM
Yes, he is working aggressively to prevent private businesses from mandating vaccines. It's right in the order.
So, not what you stated. Also, I said show me the language. I'm just asking for honesty here. What you claimed does not exists.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 04, 2021, 11:52:33 PM
Why are you plagiarizing the Daily Beast?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/h-scott-apley-chair-of-galveston-county-texas-gop-mocked-covid-days-before-he-died-of-virus (https://www.thedailybeast.com/h-scott-apley-chair-of-galveston-county-texas-gop-mocked-covid-days-before-he-died-of-virus)
Quoting. I cited the article in the original post about him.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 05, 2021, 03:58:37 AM
Got no problem with the 'hole fookin' adult wurld gettin' poked, hey?
Phrasing
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 09:36:54 PM
New father, sad story. You are one sick puppy celebrating the death of what appeared to be a good man so you can make yourself feel better or score cheap political points. #curapersonalis
It is a sad story for his wife and baby. They have my sympathies.
I have no sympathy for him. He was encouraging innocent people to die and to kill others.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 05, 2021, 05:58:00 AM
So, not what you stated. Also, I said show me the language. I'm just asking for honesty here. What you claimed does not exists.
Here is what I said about DeSantis:
He is actively, aggressively working to prevent vaccinations from taking place in Florida, despite sometimes saying otherwise.Again, it's right in sections 2, 3 and 4 of his executive order. When you threaten private businesses with extreme penalties if they require proof of vaccinations, you are actively and aggressively working to prevent vaccinations from taking place in your state.
I'm pretty surprised you don't agree with that, Hards. DeSantis is definitely not helping the vaccine distribution process in Florida. Indeed, he is undermining it. Which helps explain why Florida has become Delta Central.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 05, 2021, 07:41:52 AM
Quoting. I cited the article in the original post about him.
No, you cited the local rag.
You then took the commentary from daily Beast verbatim. The beast had the original article, plus commentary.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 05, 2021, 12:23:03 PM
No, you cited the local rag.
You then took the commentary from daily Beast verbatim. The beast had the original article, plus commentary.
Sorry, I obviously went back and clicked the wrong link. As you noted, it had the article and commentary. Sorry you think that quoting his words is somehow plagiarizing.
If you would like, I can go back and find many more examples of his words directly. Would that make you happy?
Just curious why anyone would think this guy was a fine individual. Sad really.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 05, 2021, 12:38:06 PM
Sorry, I obviously went back and clicked the wrong link. As you noted, it had the article and commentary. Sorry you think that quoting his words is somehow plagiarizing.
If you would like, I can go back and find many more examples of his words directly. Would that make you happy?
Just curious why anyone would think this guy was a fine individual. Sad really.
Just commenting on the plagiarizing, that's all. Don't care about this dude one way or another.
Plagiarizing is frowned upon in these parts.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 05, 2021, 12:49:22 PM
Just commenting on the plagiarizing, that's all. Don't care about this dude one way or another.
Plagiarizing is frowned upon in these parts.
Full articles yes. Most quotes, including the ones used in the last page, are fair use for discussion.
Wild U.S. deer found with coronavirus antibodies
A new study detected coronavirus antibodies in 40 percent of deer tested this year. Here's why that matters.
BYDINA FINE MARON
PUBLISHED AUGUST 2, 2021
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/wild-us-deer-found-with-coronavirus-antibodies?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=SubWeekly_20210805&rid=241BA4D41597465E5702C58F7203475B
Quote from: MU82 on August 05, 2021, 11:40:22 AM
Here is what I said about DeSantis:
He is actively, aggressively working to prevent vaccinations from taking place in Florida, despite sometimes saying otherwise.
Again, it's right in sections 2, 3 and 4 of his executive order. When you threaten private businesses with extreme penalties if they require proof of vaccinations, you are actively and aggressively working to prevent vaccinations from taking place in your state.
I'm pretty surprised you don't agree with that, Hards. DeSantis is definitely not helping the vaccine distribution process in Florida. Indeed, he is undermining it. Which helps explain why Florida has become Delta Central.
No, give the order a read. You're misinterpreting it.
Also, I quoted what you originally said. I'll do it again for you:
Quote from: MU82 on August 04, 2021, 05:16:14 PM
He is not allowing private businesses to mandate vaccinations.
He has no authority derived from his EO to do this. Section 2 pertains to 'vaccine passports' being unlawful for entry to private business. Section 3 outlines enforcement of this. Section 4 states that private businesses who have grants or contracts with Florida must also follow this EO. Boiler plate stuff. It is a vaccine passport ban, period.
There is absolutely zero mention of the EO disallowing private businesses from mandating vaccinations.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 05, 2021, 04:43:41 PM
No, give the order a read. You're misinterpreting it.
Also, I quoted what you originally said. I'll do it again for you:
He has no authority derived from his EO to do this. Section 2 pertains to 'vaccine passports' being unlawful for entry to private business. Section 3 outlines enforcement of this. Section 4 states that private businesses who have grants or contracts with Florida must also follow this EO. Boiler plate stuff. It is a vaccine passport ban, period.
There is absolutely zero mention of the EO disallowing private businesses from mandating vaccinations.
Hence Disney requiring employees to be fully vaccinated without issue from the state.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1423243926421614595/photo/1
If the unvaxed get vaxed, we can hit flu mortality rates like the UK, Delta included.
Governor Evers announces that if you get jabbed at the Wisconsin State Fair, you get a free cream puff.
Everyone in Wisconsin is officially out of excuses.
Oh yeah, datta due it. Thank ya Worst Governor Evers, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 05, 2021, 07:16:01 PM
Oh yeah, datta due it. Thank ya Worst Governor Evers, aina?
The giant undeveloped land surrounded by massive public infrastructure in Mount Pleasant is the worst governor's grave.
Right ana'l boys?
Quote from: warriorchick on August 05, 2021, 07:06:10 PM
Governor Evers announces that if you get jabbed at the Wisconsin State Fair, you get a free cream puff.
Everyone in Wisconsin is officially out of excuses.
Get vaccinated but still give COVID a fighting chance by ramping up your obesity co-morbidities!
Quote from: JWags85 on August 05, 2021, 08:45:21 PM
Get vaccinated but still give COVID a fighting chance by ramping up your obesity co-morbidities!
One cream puff isn't going to kill you. Not getting vaccinated might.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 04, 2021, 07:32:32 AM
Sweet home Alabama!!! Didn't see this and definitely don't agree with it. I'll be sure to not support him in his run for senate.
The only other reference to an elected official that they called a "growing list" was Massie from Kentucky who is against mandating military from having to get the vaccine. I know there are a lot who don't support mandates but if Mo Brooks is the only one I think it's safe to say both parties are pretty well aligned behind getting the vaccine.
Does North Carolina count?
@RonFilipkowski: NC Republican Lt. Gov. Mark Robinson says that any politician who promotes or encourages people to get a covid vaccine should be voted out of office. https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1423303745165692929/video/1
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 05, 2021, 04:43:41 PM
No, give the order a read. You're misinterpreting it.
Also, I quoted what you originally said. I'll do it again for you:
He has no authority derived from his EO to do this. Section 2 pertains to 'vaccine passports' being unlawful for entry to private business. Section 3 outlines enforcement of this. Section 4 states that private businesses who have grants or contracts with Florida must also follow this EO. Boiler plate stuff. It is a vaccine passport ban, period.
There is absolutely zero mention of the EO disallowing private businesses from mandating vaccinations.
The executive order states:
"Section 2 Businesses in Florida are prohibited from requiring patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business."Succeeding sections go into the penalty business owners who have the temerity to actually want to see proof of vaccines before allowing selfish, possibly infected people into their places of business.
I mean, it's as clear as day, Hards. DeSantis' order won't let businesses verify whether customers have been vaccinated. It clearly undermines the entire vaccination process and this and other similar anti-vax attitudes have contributed significantly to DeSantis' state being Delta Central.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 05, 2021, 10:14:05 PM
Does North Carolina count?
@RonFilipkowski: NC Republican Lt. Gov. Mark Robinson says that any politician who promotes or encourages people to get a covid vaccine should be voted out of office. https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1423303745165692929/video/1
Yeah, this guy is a piece of work.
Quote from: warriorchick on August 05, 2021, 07:06:10 PM
Governor Evers announces that if you get jabbed at the Wisconsin State Fair, you get a free cream puff.
Everyone in Wisconsin is officially out of excuses.
I'd rather get the shot again than have a cream puff.
*ducks*
Quote from: MU82 on August 05, 2021, 11:54:47 PM
The executive order states:
"Section 2 Businesses in Florida are prohibited from requiring patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business."
Succeeding sections go into the penalty business owners who have the temerity to actually want to see proof of vaccines before allowing selfish, possibly infected people into their places of business.
I mean, it's as clear as day, Hards. DeSantis' order won't let businesses verify whether customers have been vaccinated. It clearly undermines the entire vaccination process and this and other similar anti-vax attitudes have contributed significantly to DeSantis' state being Delta Central.
I can explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it. The EO merely disallows vaccine passports as a requirement for entry to a business. Florida isn't the only state with this mandate either. I don't care for DeSantis, but at least be honest with your claims lest you end up sounding like the liberal version of rocket.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 05, 2021, 11:59:30 PM
I'd rather get the shot again than have a cream puff.
*ducks*
You have said some outlandish stuff before, but this takes the cake! ;D
Quote from: Pakuni on August 05, 2021, 10:14:05 PM
Does North Carolina count?
@RonFilipkowski: NC Republican Lt. Gov. Mark Robinson says that any politician who promotes or encourages people to get a covid vaccine should be voted out of office. https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1423303745165692929/video/1
I see your gov. and raise you a US congress person:
Marjorie Taylor Greene Ripped For 'Encouraging Violence' With Anti-Vaccine Speech
https://finance.yahoo.com/huffpost/marjorie-taylor-greene-ripped-encouraging-080243135.html
Greene suggested Biden would send "one of his police state friends to your front door, to knock on the door, take down your name, your address, your family members' names, your phone numbers, your cellphone numbers, probably ask for your Social Security number, and whether you've taken the vaccine or not."
"Yeah, well, what they don't know is in the South we all love our Second Amendment rights," she added. "And we're not real big on strangers showing up at our front door, are we? They might not like the welcome they get."
Ar da creem puffs gluten free, hey?
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 06, 2021, 07:39:43 AM
I see your gov. and raise you a US congress person:
Marjorie Taylor Greene Ripped For 'Encouraging Violence' With Anti-Vaccine Speech
https://finance.yahoo.com/huffpost/marjorie-taylor-greene-ripped-encouraging-080243135.html
Greene suggested Biden would send "one of his police state friends to your front door, to knock on the door, take down your name, your address, your family members' names, your phone numbers, your cellphone numbers, probably ask for your Social Security number, and whether you've taken the vaccine or not."
"Yeah, well, what they don't know is in the South we all love our Second Amendment rights," she added. "And we're not real big on strangers showing up at our front door, are we? They might not like the welcome they get."
When the feds start asking for your Social Security number, it's time to bring out the guns.
Dear God, these people are stupid.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 06, 2021, 08:23:08 AM
When the feds start asking for your Social Security number, it's time to bring out the guns.
Dear God, these people are stupid.
As I noted before, they've quickly learned that being mouth-breathing ignoramuses pays exceedingly well.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 06, 2021, 07:39:43 AM
I see your gov. and raise you a US congress person:
Marjorie Taylor Greene Ripped For 'Encouraging Violence' With Anti-Vaccine Speech
https://finance.yahoo.com/huffpost/marjorie-taylor-greene-ripped-encouraging-080243135.html
Greene suggested Biden would send "one of his police state friends to your front door, to knock on the door, take down your name, your address, your family members' names, your phone numbers, your cellphone numbers, probably ask for your Social Security number, and whether you've taken the vaccine or not."
"Yeah, well, what they don't know is in the South we all love our Second Amendment rights," she added. "And we're not real big on strangers showing up at our front door, are we? They might not like the welcome they get."
She's a moron and should not be taken seriously, unfortunately some do listen. I'll give you this one, she has done nothing but embarrass the party and serve as a distraction.
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 06, 2021, 09:49:05 AM
As I noted before, they've quickly learned that being mouth-breathing ignoramuses pays exceedingly well.
Yes unfortunately there is a segment of the party that eats this type of rhetoric up.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 06, 2021, 10:08:04 AM
Yes unfortunately there is a segment of the party that eats this type of rhetoric up.
Yes, 80-90% of the party. Which is why the GOP panders to them.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 06, 2021, 06:05:28 AM
I can explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it. The EO merely disallows vaccine passports as a requirement for entry to a business. Florida isn't the only state with this mandate either.
OK, fair enough. I call it proof of vaccination; you and some others call it "vaccination passport," which I guess has become an evil term or something?
IMHO it's wrong for the government to deny a private business the option of asking for proof of vaccination, regardless of what it's called. And no, sadly, Florida isn't the only state with that kind of mandate. It's just one of the red states seeking to prohibit private businesses from protecting their employees and customers by requiring proof of vaccination.
Quote from: forgetful on August 06, 2021, 10:09:51 AM
Yes, 80-90% of the party. Which is why the GOP panders to them.
I'd flip those %s around....maybe 10-20% of the party eats that up, I hope that's it at least.
Quote from: MU82 on August 06, 2021, 10:16:57 AM
OK, fair enough. I call it proof of vaccination; you and some others call it "vaccination passport," which I guess has become an evil term or something?
IMHO it's wrong for the government to deny a private business the option of asking for proof of vaccination, regardless of what it's called. And no, sadly, Florida isn't the only state with that kind of mandate. It's just one of the red states seeking to prohibit private businesses from protecting their employees and customers by requiring proof of vaccination.
If I'm understanding the EO correctly based off Hards comments and the little I've read about it. A private business can still require proof of vaccination if they want they would just lose any grant money or funding from the state I believe.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/safrican-study-shows-jj-vaccine-protects-against-death-co-lead-investigator-says-2021-08-06/
Great news!! Vaccines seem to be holding up well against Delta.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 06, 2021, 10:48:27 AM
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/safrican-study-shows-jj-vaccine-protects-against-death-co-lead-investigator-says-2021-08-06/
Great news!! Vaccines seem to be holding up well against Delta.
How do you know when they didn't link to the study?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 06, 2021, 10:20:46 AM
If I'm understanding the EO correctly based off Hards comments and the little I've read about it. A private business can still require proof of vaccination if they want they would just lose any grant money or funding from the state I believe.
Yes, as I said, they face a penalty for wanting to protect their employees and customers from selfish anti-vax douchenozzles.
But you don't have to read my posts or Hards' posts to understand it. Read your new hero's EO. It's quite easy to follow.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 06, 2021, 08:07:24 AM
Ar da creem puffs gluten free, hey?
Yeah, but they come with 5G inside.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 06, 2021, 09:55:31 AM
She's a moron and should not be taken seriously, unfortunately some do listen. I'll give you this one, she has done nothing but embarrass the party and serve as a distraction.
She's a duly elected us congress person. Sadly, she has to be taken seriously. And she was overwhelmingly elected in her district.
This is the GOP now.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 06, 2021, 10:17:43 AM
I'd flip those %s around....maybe 10-20% of the party eats that up, I hope that's it at least.
I'd say like 30-40% of GOPers eat it up. But an equal amount of Dems devour it as hate juice as well. If people went back to ignoring the weirdos in congress they'd stop raising so much money from triggering the libs.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 06, 2021, 05:23:04 PM
I'd say like 30-40% of GOPers eat it up. But an equal amount of Dems devour it as hate juice as well. If people went back to ignoring the weirdos in congress they'd stop raising so much money from triggering the libs.
It's way more than that. In a poll this week, almost 70% think the election was stolen.
It may only be 20 or 30 % that are vocal, but the quiet ones believe the same. They supported the coup attempt.
Quote from: Jockey on August 06, 2021, 05:34:50 PM
It's way more than that. In a poll this week, almost 70% think the election was stolen.
It may only be 20 or 30 % that are vocal, but the quiet ones believe the same. They supported the coup attempt.
I see the hate juice is flowing into your veins right on schedule. ;D
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 06, 2021, 05:41:29 PM
I see the hate juice is flowing into your veins right on schedule. ;D
His numbers are correct, though. More than 2/3rds of Republicans believe the Big Lie.
Meanwhile, Floriduh Man:
Vocal anti-vaccine broadcaster dies from COVID-19 complicationshttps://www.wptv.com/lifestyle/taste-and-see/vocal-anti-vaccine-broadcaster-dies-from-covid-19-complications
"WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Former South Florida talk show host Dick Farrel, known and beloved by fans for his over-the-top right-wing opinions, has died from complications from COVID-19.
On Facebook, Farrel advocated against getting the coronavirus vaccine and was skeptical of Dr. Anthony Fauci, Chief of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, and his recommendations concerning the coronavirus. Friends said after contracting the virus he changed his point of view."
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 06, 2021, 07:20:29 PM
His numbers are correct, though. More than 2/3rds of Republicans believe the Big Lie.
Meanwhile, Floriduh Man:
Vocal anti-vaccine broadcaster dies from COVID-19 complications
https://www.wptv.com/lifestyle/taste-and-see/vocal-anti-vaccine-broadcaster-dies-from-covid-19-complications
"WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Former South Florida talk show host Dick Farrel, known and beloved by fans for his over-the-top right-wing opinions, has died from complications from COVID-19.
On Facebook, Farrel advocated against getting the coronavirus vaccine and was skeptical of Dr. Anthony Fauci, Chief of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, and his recommendations concerning the coronavirus. Friends said after contracting the virus he changed his point of view."
These dopes are like death-row criminals who suddenly find religion on the way to execution.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 06, 2021, 05:41:29 PM
I see the hate juice is flowing into your veins right on schedule. ;D
Good deflection, Hards. You made the accusation about them. Then criticized me when I corrected your numbers. ;D
Quote from: Jockey on August 06, 2021, 11:55:43 PM
Good deflection, Hards. You made the accusation about them. Then criticized me when I corrected your numbers. ;D
No he didn't. He adjusted the original hypothesized GOP percentage. Then made a comment about their Dem counterparts. You then presented a vague, uncited poll about GOP members saying its actually 70%.
Meanwhile, as I called out previously, you flip out about GOP "murderers" and "killers" death squads in 90% of the COVID and 50% of the Superbar threads daily with the same rhetoric, and others here quote LITERALLY every dumb thing morons like MTG or Handsy McLiar Cawthorne say on a weekly basis.
I think he summed it up pretty well. And Hards and I disagree on PLENTY ;D
Quote from: JWags85 on August 07, 2021, 01:39:33 AM
No he didn't. He adjusted the original hypothesized GOP percentage. Then made a comment about their Dem counterparts. You then presented a vague, uncited poll about GOP members saying its actually 70%.
Meanwhile, as I called out previously, you flip out about GOP "murderers" and "killers" death squads in 90% of the COVID and 50% of the Superbar threads daily with the same rhetoric, and others here quote LITERALLY every dumb thing morons like MTG or Handsy McLiar Cawthorne say on a weekly basis.
I think he summed it up pretty well. And Hards and I disagree on PLENTY ;D
Well, 600,000+ have died in this country and only one party has fought tooth and nail against measures to mitigate those numbers. Inconvenient, but true.
Do I state this (too) often? Obviously I do. But it is important to remember why so many have died needlessly.
As for the GOP percentages, don't be fooled. The GOP exists now in name only. In reality, it is the party of Trump. Their beliefs rely on what he says.
Alabama crowd cheers state's low vaccination rate during Marjorie Taylor Greene event
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/566814-alabama-crowd-cheers-states-low-vaccination-rates-during-marjorie-taylor
Greene, who has previously compared mask and vaccine mandates to Nazi Germany, continued in the video by arguing that Biden would be "sending one of his police state friends to your front door" to take down residents' personal information and "whether you've taken the vaccine or not."
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 07, 2021, 11:54:20 AM
Alabama crowd cheers state's low vaccination rate during Marjorie Taylor Greene event
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/566814-alabama-crowd-cheers-states-low-vaccination-rates-during-marjorie-taylor
Greene, who has previously compared mask and vaccine mandates to Nazi Germany, continued in the video by arguing that Biden would be "sending one of his police state friends to your front door" to take down residents' personal information and "whether you've taken the vaccine or not."
I mean, they're mostly just killing their voting base. It's pretty self destructive.
Three positive developments over the weekend ...
++ A federal judge on Sunday granted Norwegian Cruise Line's request for a preliminary injunction, temporarily allowing the company to require proof of vaccination from passengers despite a Florida law that bans businesses from doing so. The ruling is likely to draw backlash from Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida, who in May signed a state law that set fines for businesses requiring customers to provide proof of vaccination. Norwegian's next cruise ship to sail from Florida is set for Aug. 15, out of Miami. In a statement on Sunday, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings said the ruling would allow it to "operate in the safest way possible."
++ Randi Weingarten, the head of the powerful American Federation of Teachers, expressed her strongest support to date for mandatory vaccination of educators against Covid-19, saying on Sunday that she would urge her union's leadership to reconsider its position against vaccine mandates. "It's not a new thing to have immunizations in schools," Ms. Weingarten said on the NBC program "Meet the Press." "And I think that on a personal matter, as a matter of personal conscience, I think that we need to be working with our employers, not opposing them, on vaccine mandates." She called the rising number of coronavirus cases in the United States a "public health crisis. And the politics are infecting it."
++ On Friday, a judge temporarily blocked Arkansas' law banning mask mandates, allowing schools and other government entities in Arkansas to require masks. Gov. Asa Hutchinson told Face the Nation on Sunday: "It was an error to sign that law. I admit that. ... Facts change, and leaders have to adjust to the new facts and the reality of what you have to deal with. Whenever I signed that law, our cases were low, we were hoping that the whole thing was gone, in terms of the virus, but it roared back with the Delta variant." Arkansas, which has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country, has seen cases approach last winter's surge counts. It now has a seven-day rolling average of 2,351 new daily cases.
Info in all of the above culled from the NYT.
Quote from: MU82 on August 09, 2021, 08:02:08 AM
Three positive developments over the weekend ...
++ A federal judge on Sunday granted Norwegian Cruise Line's request for a preliminary injunction, temporarily allowing the company to require proof of vaccination from passengers despite a Florida law that bans businesses from doing so. The ruling is likely to draw backlash from Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida, who in May signed a state law that set fines for businesses requiring customers to provide proof of vaccination. Norwegian's next cruise ship to sail from Florida is set for Aug. 15, out of Miami. In a statement on Sunday, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings said the ruling would allow it to "operate in the safest way possible."
++ Randi Weingarten, the head of the powerful American Federation of Teachers, expressed her strongest support to date for mandatory vaccination of educators against Covid-19, saying on Sunday that she would urge her union's leadership to reconsider its position against vaccine mandates. "It's not a new thing to have immunizations in schools," Ms. Weingarten said on the NBC program "Meet the Press." "And I think that on a personal matter, as a matter of personal conscience, I think that we need to be working with our employers, not opposing them, on vaccine mandates." She called the rising number of coronavirus cases in the United States a "public health crisis. And the politics are infecting it."
++ On Friday, a judge temporarily blocked Arkansas' law banning mask mandates, allowing schools and other government entities in Arkansas to require masks. Gov. Asa Hutchinson told Face the Nation on Sunday: "It was an error to sign that law. I admit that. ... Facts change, and leaders have to adjust to the new facts and the reality of what you have to deal with. Whenever I signed that law, our cases were low, we were hoping that the whole thing was gone, in terms of the virus, but it roared back with the Delta variant." Arkansas, which has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country, has seen cases approach last winter's surge counts. It now has a seven-day rolling average of 2,351 new daily cases.
Info in all of the above culled from the NYT.
I give the Arkansas governor a little respect for acknowledging her law was a mistake, and shouldn't have been done. A lot better than other leaders who keep their head in the sand and fight any legal attempts to block their orders.
Quote from: forgetful on August 09, 2021, 10:15:36 AM
I give the Arkansas governor a little respect for acknowledging her law was a mistake, and shouldn't have been done. A lot better than other leaders who keep their head in the sand and fight any legal attempts to block their orders.
Agreed. Most dig in, double-down and refuse to ever acknowledge a mistake.
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-vaccine-us-military-requirement-pentagon-3975940c732352f72e41f6e34a3a2669
Pentagon will require the vaccine for all troops on whichever comes first: Final FDA approval, or September 15th.
It's about time they started taking military readiness more seriously.
If vaccinated, severe break-through cases near nil.
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/less-than-0-01-percent-of-vaccinated-americans-developed-severe-covid-breakthrough-case-cdc-says/
Let's get these vaccines fully approved so the focus shifts to the under 12s with the trials already in place on dosage.
Debunking the unvaxed myth. Still, access needs to be a priority.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/opinion/covid-delta-vaccines-unvaccinated.html?algo=clicks_decay_96&block=5&campaign_id=142&emc=edit_fory_20210809&fellback=false&imp_id=642510564&instance_id=37519&nl=for-you&nlid=97581647&pool=pool%2F5e7731fa-5316-4a02-a8e4-6b70e6919705&rank=1®i_id=97581647&req_id=282256083&segment_id=65802&surface=for-you-email-rotating-opinion&user_id=617e6e7d6f3906e0024ea9df05bd6e53&variant=0_clicks_decay_96
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 09, 2021, 06:11:48 PM
Debunking the unvaxed myth. Still, access needs to be a priority.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/opinion/covid-delta-vaccines-unvaccinated.html?algo=clicks_decay_96&block=5&campaign_id=142&emc=edit_fory_20210809&fellback=false&imp_id=642510564&instance_id=37519&nl=for-you&nlid=97581647&pool=pool%2F5e7731fa-5316-4a02-a8e4-6b70e6919705&rank=1®i_id=97581647&req_id=282256083&segment_id=65802&surface=for-you-email-rotating-opinion&user_id=617e6e7d6f3906e0024ea9df05bd6e53&variant=0_clicks_decay_96
Thanks for that link, Dr. B. The op-ed writer does a nice job of debunking some of the myths.
I was encouraged by quotes like this:
"We pretty quickly exhausted those who were easiest to reach and vaccinate," Tara Smith, a public health professor at Kent State, told me. "This next phase is more difficult, but I don't think it's impossible to continue to get more people vaccinated. We just have to get creative."
The writer suggested going home-to-home to distribute vaccines, something that a certain segment has equated with the government coming to do evil things.
In addition, she suggested guaranteed paid leave for those who get sick from the vaccine for a day or two, as routinely happens, as well as paid child-care where necessary. Both of which, of course, a segment of society would consider just another "handout" to the "takers."
One thing the writer doesn't really do is present factual evidence showing that for a large percentage (perhaps a majority?) of the un-vaxxed, it's simply been a choice -- "Don't Fauci my Ouchie!"
FWIW, here's a graphic from today's Washington Post that breaks things down by race and religion.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/IHDNRMAINZFJJBJKD2JTGJABKU.jpg&w=767)
Of those groups, the one most likely to say, "No way ... I'm not getting that nasty shot," are white evangelical Christians.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on August 09, 2021, 06:11:48 PM
Debunking the unvaxed myth. Still, access needs to be a priority.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/opinion/covid-delta-vaccines-unvaccinated.html?algo=clicks_decay_96&block=5&campaign_id=142&emc=edit_fory_20210809&fellback=false&imp_id=642510564&instance_id=37519&nl=for-you&nlid=97581647&pool=pool%2F5e7731fa-5316-4a02-a8e4-6b70e6919705&rank=1®i_id=97581647&req_id=282256083&segment_id=65802&surface=for-you-email-rotating-opinion&user_id=617e6e7d6f3906e0024ea9df05bd6e53&variant=0_clicks_decay_96
This is a very good point, and one I did not fully realize/internalize. For many poor Americans, simply getting to a health care facility to get the vaccine is a challenge (poor public transportation/cost). In many of these settings access to information through the internet is also absent, as these homes do not have internet access.
So even finding a location to get a vaccine can be a challenge, and being informed of the safety of the vaccine is even more of a challenge.
It is not surprising that these communities have low vaccination rates. What is sad, is how little most care about this, as most Americans have zero idea about what living in actual poverty looks like.
Quote from: MU82 on August 09, 2021, 07:12:11 PM
Thanks for that link, Dr. B. The op-ed writer does a nice job of debunking some of the myths.
I was encouraged by quotes like this:
"We pretty quickly exhausted those who were easiest to reach and vaccinate," Tara Smith, a public health professor at Kent State, told me. "This next phase is more difficult, but I don't think it's impossible to continue to get more people vaccinated. We just have to get creative."
The writer suggested going home-to-home to distribute vaccines, something that a certain segment has equated with the government coming to do evil things.
In addition, she suggested guaranteed paid leave for those who get sick from the vaccine for a day or two, as routinely happens, as well as paid child-care where necessary. Both of which, of course, a segment of society would consider just another "handout" to the "takers."
One thing the writer doesn't really do is present factual evidence showing that for a large percentage (perhaps a majority?) of the un-vaxxed, it's simply been a choice -- "Don't Fauci my Ouchie!"
FWIW, here's a graphic from today's Washington Post that breaks things down by race and religion.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/IHDNRMAINZFJJBJKD2JTGJABKU.jpg&w=767)
Of those groups, the one most likely to say, "No way ... I'm not getting that nasty shot," are white evangelical Christians.
Yet depending on the definition of "hesitant", Hispanics are the largest group of "non-accepters" which is interesting
Quote from: JWags85 on August 09, 2021, 07:24:25 PM
Yet depending on the definition of "hesitant", Hispanics are the largest group of "non-accepters" which is interesting
Shhh...that doesn't fit the agenda.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 09, 2021, 07:24:25 PM
Yet depending on the definition of "hesitant", Hispanics are the largest group of "non-accepters" which is interesting
Agree. Hispanics are most "hesitant," which IMHO means reluctant to get the vaccine but perhaps able to be convinced eventually.
But white evangelicals are, as a group, most likely to outright refuse the vaccine — according to this study, anyway.
I don't think "Refuser" leaves much room for nuance, Wags, do you?
Quote from: JWags85 on August 09, 2021, 07:24:25 PM
Yet depending on the definition of "hesitant", Hispanics are the largest group of "non-accepters" which is interesting
WASHINGTON (AP) — Many Latinos are forgoing COVID-19 shots because of concerns about losing work hours, getting a bill, and for some, immigration worries. That's according to a new poll that offers insights into how to raise vaccination rates among the nation's largest ethnic minority.
The Kaiser Family Foundation Vaccine Monitor poll released Thursday found that many Hispanics who remain unvaccinated actually want a shot. In fact, they reported far less vaccine hesitancy than their white or Black counterparts.
One in 3 unvaccinated Latino adults said they want to get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as possible —twice the share among unvaccinated white adults (16%) or Blacks (17%).
Conversely, just 17% of unvaccinated Hispanics said they would definitely not get a shot, compared with 34% of whites and 26% of unvaccinated Black adults. https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-race-and-ethnicity-immigration-health-government-and-politics-869850c0690e7247579800a862890eb4
Quote from: JWags85 on August 09, 2021, 07:24:25 PM
Yet depending on the definition of "hesitant", Hispanics are the largest group of "non-accepters" which is interesting
Not surprised by this. Many hispanics are fearful of medical settings in general. Pakuni mentions some of the reasons. But I learned of this from one of my students who is a "Dreamer," their family and extended family are fearful of medical settings. I won't go into all the reasons why, but I'll say it was eye opening to hear a different perspective on something so simple as going to the doctor that I and many on here take for granted.
Quote from: forgetful on August 09, 2021, 07:19:55 PM
This is a very good point, and one I did not fully realize/internalize. For many poor Americans, simply getting to a health care facility to get the vaccine is a challenge (poor public transportation/cost). In many of these settings access to information through the internet is also absent, as these homes do not have internet access.
So even finding a location to get a vaccine can be a challenge, and being informed of the safety of the vaccine is even more of a challenge.
It is not surprising that these communities have low vaccination rates. What is sad, is how little most care about this, as most Americans have zero idea about what living in actual poverty looks like.
You can get the shot at most national chain drug stores and even a few grocery stores. At this point, the amount of people that don't have access to the vaccine is very small. Additionally, we've been providing free rides to vaccine sites (Dane county) since they've been available. IMHO, anyone who doesn't have a shot and wants one currently is just being a tad lazy about it.
There are many inner city areas that don't have national chain drug stores and grocery stores nearby.
There are probably also rural areas where people drive great distances to those locations as well.
We still get posts in the Vaccine Hunters group from suburbanites asking where they can go for a walk-in, or to get a specific vaccine.
Frankly I am kind of puzzled by that myself, but I'm just relating how it is. For some reason people seem really helpless, and I am not sure why.
And not to get off-track a little, but I've also been occasionally following a FB group of people trying to obtain passports for upcoming travel- I am gobsmacked by how people are routinely advised to contact their state representatives when they mean US House or Senate- one woman recently asked which county her US Senator represented - all I can think of at times is that these people are voting 😱
If only there were a place where anyone could look for information.
Alas, it doesn't exist.
Summerfest requiring proof of vaccination or negative Covid test to get in.
https://www.summerfest.com/covid-19-entry-protocols/
Pretty stupid for an outdoor activity. Who makes these decisions? The same idiots who enjoy shoving a glass rod up their johnson and then slamming it with a sledgehammer, hey?
Quote from: Warriors4ever on August 10, 2021, 09:17:30 AM
There are many inner city areas that don't have national chain drug stores and grocery stores nearby.
There are probably also rural areas where people drive great distances to those locations as well.
We still get posts in the Vaccine Hunters group from suburbanites asking where they can go for a walk-in, or to get a specific vaccine.
Frankly I am kind of puzzled by that myself, but I'm just relating how it is. For some reason people seem really helpless, and I am not sure why.
And not to get off-track a little, but I've also been occasionally following a FB group of people trying to obtain passports for upcoming travel- I am gobsmacked by how people are routinely advised to contact their state representatives when they mean US House or Senate- one woman recently asked which county her US Senator represented - all I can think of at times is that these people are voting 😱
Like where? Just googling walgreens in Chicago, and the city is dotted with them. Then add the CVS and there seems to be broad coverage. Also, these are likely not the only places to get vaccines, just ones that are easy to access.
I have serious doubts that lack of vaccination is due to lack of access.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 10, 2021, 09:39:47 AM
Pretty stupid of an outdoor activity. Who makes these decisions, hey?
Lollapalooza did it, and still something like 500 cases could be traced to the festival. Even while outside.
Guess the unvaccinated will have to stay home while the rest of us get to continue going about our daily lives enjoying normality (such as it is). As it should be.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 10, 2021, 09:39:47 AM
Pretty stupid for an outdoor activity. Who makes these decisions? The same idiots who enjoy shoving a glass rod up their johnson and then slamming it with a sledgehammer, hey?
I suppose they could just close the bathrooms, food, and beer vendors to make sure that everyone stays outside.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 10, 2021, 09:39:47 AM
Pretty stupid for an outdoor activity. Who makes these decisions? The same idiots who enjoy shoving a glass rod up their johnson and then slamming it with a sledgehammer, hey?
Summerfest is doing this to encourage people to get vaccinated.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on August 10, 2021, 10:44:37 AM
Summerfest is doing this to encourage people to get vaccinated.
Well, that and to stop the unnecessary spread of a deadly virus that will continue to gain more aggressive mutations the more it circulates.
Quote from: forgetful on August 10, 2021, 10:56:31 AM
Well, that and to stop the unnecessary spread of a deadly virus that will continue to gain more aggressive mutations the more it circulates.
Right. I should have said "also doing this..."
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 10, 2021, 09:43:38 AM
Like where? Just googling walgreens in Chicago, and the city is dotted with them. Then add the CVS and there seems to be broad coverage. Also, these are likely not the only places to get vaccines, just ones that are easy to access.
I have serious doubts that lack of vaccination is due to lack of access.
Agreed. Ive mentioned here that I have a good friend who has extended family in Englewood. Millenials who into their early 20s had never been to a restaurant where a server waited on you. He also has other family who live in areas with aggressive urban poverty, pretty close to destitute. As he tells it, vaccination hesitancy or lack of vaccination in that segment has nothing to do with access or availability. Nor is it an issue of internet access "there are people there that can't keep their lights or heat on that have cell phones with data".
Its a huge problem but its not an access issue. Its far more psychological and embedded.
Quote from: forgetful on August 10, 2021, 10:56:31 AM
Well, that and to stop the unnecessary spread of a deadly virus that will continue to gain more aggressive mutations the more it circulates.
Forgetful, sincere question and apologies if it's a dumb one. Been reading that because C19 also has animal hosts (recent report showing 40% of deer tested positive) it will be impossible to ever fully eradicate it? Even if humans are 100% vaccinated and or natural antibodies will the virus continue to mutate within animal populations and these new variants will constantly be popping up in humans from time to time?
Small pox was successfully eradicated because it didn't have an animal host capability? Is that right?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 10, 2021, 09:39:47 AM
Pretty stupid for an outdoor activity. Who makes these decisions? The same idiots who enjoy shoving a glass rod up their johnson and then slamming it with a sledgehammer, hey?
You have repeatedly supported vaccinations. You should be happy about this.
Plus, it's capitalism. A private entity exercising its rights. You should be happy about that, too.
Unvaccinated can find other venues and events to infect fellow unvaccinated folks.
Quote from: MU82 on August 10, 2021, 11:42:40 AM
Unvaccinated can find other venues and events to infect fellow unvaccinated folks.
Clapton's got their back.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 10, 2021, 09:39:47 AM
Pretty stupid for an outdoor activity. Who makes these decisions? The same idiots who enjoy shoving a glass rod up their johnson and then slamming it with a sledgehammer, hey?
So, if the anti-vaxxers refuse to 'submit', are you in favor of handcuffing them?
Quote from: MU82 on August 10, 2021, 11:42:40 AM
You have repeatedly supported vaccinations. You should be happy about this.
Plus, it's capitalism. A private entity exercising its rights. You should be happy about that, too.
Unvaccinated can find other venues and events to infect fellow unvaccinated folks.
You're right, I support the vaccination. That said, I think it's insane to require vaccination to attend an outdoor event. Furthermore, why would any business impose further penalties upon itself based on ill-conceived notions, hey?
Quote from: Pakuni on August 10, 2021, 11:58:44 AM
Clapton's got their back.
Had to look it up. Didn't know that about Clapton.
Said Brian May: "Anti-vax people, I'm sorry, I think they're fruitcakes."
Funny stuff. Can't make this shyte up!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 10, 2021, 01:26:50 PM
You're right, I support the vaccination. That said, I think it's insane to require vaccination to attend an outdoor event. Furthermore, why would any business impose further penalties upon itself based on ill-conceived notions, hey?
It's not your run-of-the-mill "outdoor event." It's a super-crowded outdoor event that will feature humans mashed together at concerts, in beer lines, etc.
Furthermore, I don't know why it bothers you that a private enterprise would regulate its own business, even if it "imposes further penalties upon itself."
Freedom! Capitalism! 'Murica!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 10, 2021, 01:26:50 PM
You're right, I support the vaccination. That said, I think it's insane to require vaccination to attend an outdoor event. Furthermore, why would any business impose further penalties upon itself based on ill-conceived notions, hey?
Your average family in the back at picnic tables during early sets would be fine. Your average younger person jumping around packed shoulder to shoulder shouting lyrics into the face of people 8inches away... would not.
A good comparison is Lollapalooza. I was in the back for foo fighters and am A-ok. Meanwhile a cousin of my cousin's (a soph at MU) was upfront and going nuts... he has Covid now despite having J&J, the required vaccination cards and negative tests.
Bottom line is you're so densely packed in, for so long, breathing heavily all over so many people that the outdoors is negated.
Get vaccinated fucking morons.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/29/e0/Bqo7ClRs_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/Bqo7ClRs)
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 10, 2021, 05:29:23 PM
Get vaccinated unnatural carnal knowledgeing morons.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/29/e0/Bqo7ClRs_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/Bqo7ClRs)
Ir's not like no one saw this coming.
From the Daily Beast in July 2016:
Donald Trump Is Turning Republicans Into Anti-Vaxxers
Republicans are more skeptical of vaccine science than we may have previously realized—and Donald Trump may bear some of the blame.
A new study, conducted for The Daily Beast by a researcher at Washington State University, found a relationship between Republican party affiliation and anti-vaccine sentiment. Survey participants who didn't plan to vaccinate themselves or their families most often named Donald Trump as a public figure they thought shared their views.
Anti-vaccine sentiment was also disturbingly high among Democrats who participated in the study, though not as prevalent as among Republicans.
Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee, has expressed significant skepticism about vaccine science over the years, even going so far as to suggest vaccines cause autism. As a result, he's become a hero to many in the anti-vaxx movement—the rare public figure willing to champion their dangerous and incorrect beliefs.https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-is-turning-republicans-into-anti-vaxxers
I've been saying this for months (as have some others).
this is not only cringe worthy, but really weird...don't be looking for an up-tick in vax numbers due to this joke
https://nypost.com/2021/08/10/tiktok-star-parades-around-white-house-to-boost-vaccines/
whoever thought this was a good idea should be fired. i hope they can do better
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 10, 2021, 08:04:10 PM
this is not only cringe worthy, but really weird...don't be looking for an up-tick in vax numbers due to this joke
https://nypost.com/2021/08/10/tiktok-star-parades-around-white-house-to-boost-vaccines/
whoever thought this was a good idea should be fired. i hope they can do better
Honestly, if it motivates one person to get vaccinated, I'm for it. I'm beyond caring about cheesiness.
Yep. I dont care if it is Teletubbies or Duck Dynasty if it inspires people to get vaccinated.
" It had been viewed more than 2.7 million times on TikTok and 850,000 times on Instagram as of Tuesday morning."
Yeah I don't see the problem here.
Survey says workers on both sides of vaccine-mandate issue have strong feelings.
https://qz.com/work/2045018/survey-shows-the-business-risk-of-not-adopting-a-vaccine-mandate/?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20210811&instance_id=37627&nl=dealbook®i_id=108420427&segment_id=65916&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
New research from Qualtrics suggests it's true that companies might alienate workers if they require vaccines. The portion of Americans who say they would consider leaving their jobs if their workplaces made vaccination necessary has ticked upward, from 39% in March to 44% in August. (Qualtrics surveyed a representative sample of more than 1,000 working adults.)
But employers may also want to consider another risk: The same Qualtrics survey shows that 38% of workers would consider leaving their current employer if the organization did not enact a vaccine mandate.
Quote from: MU82 on August 11, 2021, 07:11:42 AM
Survey says workers on both sides of vaccine-mandate issue have strong feelings.
https://qz.com/work/2045018/survey-shows-the-business-risk-of-not-adopting-a-vaccine-mandate/?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20210811&instance_id=37627&nl=dealbook®i_id=108420427&segment_id=65916&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
New research from Qualtrics suggests it's true that companies might alienate workers if they require vaccines. The portion of Americans who say they would consider leaving their jobs if their workplaces made vaccination necessary has ticked upward, from 39% in March to 44% in August. (Qualtrics surveyed a representative sample of more than 1,000 working adults.)
But employers may also want to consider another risk: The same Qualtrics survey shows that 38% of workers would consider leaving their current employer if the organization did not enact a vaccine mandate.
Hard to get anything from these numbers without knowing more information about people's specific job situation:
1. Force return to office/No vaccine mandate= bad
2. Force return to office/vaccine mandate= bad
3. Continue work from home/vaccine mandate= bad
4. Continue to work from home/no vaccine mandate= good
5. Job has always required employees onsite/vaccine mandate= good
Vaccine mandate for everyone in all contexts to do anything at all in society = good.
Anything else = bad.
FIFY
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 10, 2021, 11:39:04 AM
Forgetful, sincere question and apologies if it's a dumb one. Been reading that because C19 also has animal hosts (recent report showing 40% of deer tested positive) it will be impossible to ever fully eradicate it? Even if humans are 100% vaccinated and or natural antibodies will the virus continue to mutate within animal populations and these new variants will constantly be popping up in humans from time to time?
Small pox was successfully eradicated because it didn't have an animal host capability? Is that right?
It will mutate in these animal populations to become more infectious in those animals, while it is possible it develops mutations more likely to infect humans, a jump to humans is rare, unless you are working in close contact (e.g. farms), and/or butchering (wet markets).
So proper precautions should still allow it to be essentially eradicated in the US.
But a secondary important point. Those screaming...but it is outdoors so it is safe. Pretty sure deer and other wildlife are not hosting indoor parties with humans. Their spread is entirely through the outdoors.
There are two avenues for such large populations of animals being infected. 1) Animal to animal spread (read outdoor transmission at a high level), and 2) Contaminated waste water, e.g. release of infected human waste into lakes and streams. If the latter is a viable transmission possibility, what does that say about swimming in those same lakes and streams?
I only point this out to highlight how little we know about this virus yet, and to emphasize why we will never likely know its real origin. We don't have data from before the discovery (and never will) and still do not know how this circulates in animals.
Quote from: MU82 on August 11, 2021, 07:11:42 AM
New research from Qualtrics suggests it's true that companies might alienate workers if they require vaccines.
unnatural carnal knowledge'em. I have no more fucks to give for these assholes.
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/235454764_1876066982574622_3723160578805836645_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-4&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=us2BIG2RSNgAX-kTwuA&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=1364383b9a674a6cd35f6bb5052d2c2c&oe=613BB015)
Vaccine effectiveness dips to 40% for July infections. Concerning report and long term effectiveness of vaccines a true unknown.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-pfizer-moderna-delta-biden-e9be4bb0-3d10-4f56-8054-5410be357070.html
Quote from: CountryRoads on August 11, 2021, 06:38:39 PM
Vaccine effectiveness dips to 40% for July infections. Concerning report and long term effectiveness of vaccines a true unknown.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-pfizer-moderna-delta-biden-e9be4bb0-3d10-4f56-8054-5410be357070.html
QuoteYes, but: There has been no data so far that has found either vaccine's protection against severe disease and death is significantly less against Delta, and the study notes that there doesn't appear to be much of a difference in complications stemming from breakthrough infections based on which vaccine someone got.
And experts cautioned against rushing to conclusions.
"This is the kind of surprising finding that needs confirmation before we should accept its validity," said Cornell virologist John Moore.
What i get from your link, Country roads, is that you are advocating mask mandates, too.
Quote from: tower912 on August 11, 2021, 06:56:19 PM
What i get from your link, Country roads, is that you are advocating mask mandates, too.
I have mild social anxiety, so I personally don't mind wearing a mask. I'd give my opinion on mask effectiveness vs Covid, but you wouldn't want to hear it anyway so I won't waste the breath.
Quote from: CountryRoads on August 11, 2021, 07:52:23 PM
I have mild social anxiety, so I personally don't mind wearing a mask. I'd give my opinion on mask effectiveness vs Covid, but you wouldn't want to hear it anyway so I won't waste the breath.
Your opinion?
Or you'd relay what the science says?
Quote from: CountryRoads on August 11, 2021, 06:38:39 PM
Vaccine effectiveness dips to 40% for July infections. Concerning report and long term effectiveness of vaccines a true unknown.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-pfizer-moderna-delta-biden-e9be4bb0-3d10-4f56-8054-5410be357070.html
Did you read the "Yes but" part?
Yes, but: There has been no data so far that has found either vaccine's protection against severe disease and death is significantly less against Delta, and the study notes that there doesn't appear to be much of a difference in complications stemming from breakthrough infections based on which vaccine someone got.In other words, the vaccinated are still way better off than the unvaccinated ... and everybody would be
waaaaaay better off if everybody got the shot.
It also looks like the Moderna shot might end up being more effective than Pfizer in dealing with Delta, but it's really too early to say ... which leads to where the article said this:
And experts cautioned against rushing to conclusions.
"This is the kind of surprising finding that needs confirmation before we should accept its validity," said Cornell virologist John Moore.
So don't rush to conclusions!
Quote from: CountryRoads on August 11, 2021, 07:52:23 PM
I have mild social anxiety, so I personally don't mind wearing a mask. I'd give my opinion on mask effectiveness vs Covid, but you wouldn't want to hear it anyway so I won't waste the breath.
The Borg don't care, aina?
Quote from: CountryRoads on August 11, 2021, 07:52:23 PM
I have mild social anxiety, so I personally don't mind wearing a mask. I'd give my opinion on mask effectiveness vs Covid, but you wouldn't want to hear it anyway so I won't waste the breath.
I'm guessing your opinion on mask effectiveness is about as valid as my opinion on various quantum mechanics topics.
@ShannonBream
BREAKING: Justice Barrett denies emergency injunction request from Indiana Univ students challenging the school's vaccine mandate. She could have referred the matter to the full Court, but acted alone and denied the request. #SCOTUS
Quote from: Pakuni on August 12, 2021, 04:51:29 PM
@ShannonBream
BREAKING: Justice Barrett denies emergency injunction request from Indiana Univ students challenging the school's vaccine mandate. She could have referred the matter to the full Court, but acted alone and denied the request. #SCOTUS
The students made it easy for her. In their legal filing, they told the justices the university "
is treating its students as children who cannot be trusted to make mature decisions."
Um..., yeah.
pfizer 76%/42% vs moderna 86%/76%
you make the call...glad i got moderna. i just didn't like the fact that pfizer vaccine had to be kept at -76 to -112F. i don't know how much leeway it has from there, but who knows if the vaccine they got was kept within it's optimal temp zone until it went into your arm-yes i know it can't be at those temps at the time it's injected.
https://nypost.com/2021/08/10/moderna-may-be-superior-to-pfizer-against-delta-strain-study/
Those efficacy numbers are still to be determined for Moderna as a warning. The study had Moderna with less time elapsed-and the theory is MRNA fades with time and while effective against severe illness more breakthroughs are possible with symptoms.
So maybe party about your choice but I wouldn't start yet.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on August 12, 2021, 05:14:50 PM
Those efficacy numbers are still to be determined for Moderna as a warning. The study had Moderna with less time elapsed-and the theory is MRNA fades with time and while effective against severe illness more breakthroughs are possible with symptoms.
So maybe party about your choice but I wouldn't start yet.
no party, just saying i've always said that if i had a choice between the two, i'd pick door #1-moderna
with all due respect and i appreciate your insight, many of the things about this virus are still to be determined
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 05:22:03 PM
no party, just saying i've always said that if i had a choice between the two, i'd pick door #1-moderna
with all due respect and i appreciate your insight, many of the things about this virus are still to be determined
Ok,
Here is the study many are referencing. Eric Topol has been writing quite a bit on the topic recently if anyone is interested.
https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1425798861591777284?s=21 (https://twitter.com/erictopol/status/1425798861591777284?s=21)
it seems they are looking at the time between shots(hate the term jabs) as a reason for the improved efficacy numbers. i that continues to be the case, i would definitely be up for a booster, but this every 6 mos thing seems a bit premature. as long as i've already been implanted with the nano chip...what's the difference. unless other accredited studies say otherwise.
i don't recall (i guess i could look it up) why some vaccines confer pretty much a lifetime immunity(shingles, small pox, polio) while others need to be repeated every so many years, i.e. tetanus. could that be due to updated vaccines aimed at variants? some viruses don't mutate as much
I think the six months item is for the vulnerable/compromised. For example they are finding that those that are treated with many common arthritis medications did not get as big of a boost from the second shot as others.
I've seen someone describe this as potentially dosing learning versus needing a regular 'boost'. But who knows yet since we are in the middle of learning.
Also it comes down to what is your goal for prevention which didn't seem important 9 months ago but is now (infection or severe infection, etc).
While we are preoccupied with the efficacy news, this article puts it in perspective. 99.5+% of the recent new positives are among the non-fully vaccinated, and few are in the hospital or have died who are fully vaxed.
Before boosters, get the under 12 trials done (some pediatrician groups are saying a four month trial can be safely reduced to two).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-12/how-vaccines-are-affecting-california-covid-19-case-rates%3f_amp=true
only 27% of young Black New Yorkers are vaccinated. I guess blame for the reemergence isn't just confined to the MAGA and Q idiots. Real Horseshow Effect here too with the comments.
"Since when does America give anything good to Black people first?" said the activist, Hawk Newsome, a 44-year-old Black Lives Matter leader who is unvaccinated.
"They're experimenting on us," said Knya White, 21, of Canarsie, Brooklyn, a predominantly Black neighborhood.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/nyregion/covid-vaccine-black-young-new-yorkers.html
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on August 12, 2021, 06:50:56 PM
only 27% of young Black New Yorkers are vaccinated. I guess blame for the reemergence isn't just confined to the MAGA and Q idiots. Real Horseshow Effect here too with the comments.
"Since when does America give anything good to Black people first?" said the activist, Hawk Newsome, a 44-year-old Black Lives Matter leader who is unvaccinated.
"They're experimenting on us," said Knya White, 21, of Canarsie, Brooklyn, a predominantly Black neighborhood.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/nyregion/covid-vaccine-black-young-new-yorkers.html
That sucks. I wish it weren't the case.
But again, nationwide, white evangelicals are the most resistant group. And again, Republicans, especially those who consider themselves Trump followers, are far less likely to be vaccinated than Independents or Democrats. Which is especially crazy because their hero has been vaccinated and, after some prodding, he did finally urge his followers to get the vaccine that he actually worked to bring to fruition.
I wonder if Mike goes more than 4 hours without posting a "mad king", "their/your hero", "treasonous traitors" or some other catchy Trump supporter alliteration, or the like...if he starts to get the shakes ?-(
Quote from: JWags85 on August 12, 2021, 07:25:45 PM
I wonder if Mike goes more than 4 hours without posting a "mad king", "their/your hero", "treasonous traitors" or some other catchy Trump supporter alliteration, or the like...if he starts to get the shakes ?-(
I could use a shake. There's a place near us that makes great peanut butter shakes!
Quote from: JWags85 on August 12, 2021, 07:25:45 PM
I wonder if Mike goes more than 4 hours without posting a "mad king", "their/your hero", "treasonous traitors" or some other catchy Trump supporter alliteration, or the like...if he starts to get the shakes ?-(
seriously and did he forget(evidently) that #45 was the one who pushed operation warp speed?? the development of multiple vaccines!! from which came 2, maybe 3 depending on who's counting. the feat that all the "experts" said couldn't be done?? while the "others" were saying they wouldn't get it because #45 was behind it, they didn't trust it, etc etc
"Also it comes down to what is your goal for prevention which didn't seem important 9 months ago but is now (infection or severe infection, etc)."
i am assuming you don't mean me personally. we, as a world, need to come down hard on china. speaking of reparations, this was nasty evil. now the cover up is as bad as the crime. this cannot happen again. china could have prevented this from becoming a pandemic
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 07:50:03 PM
seriously and did he forget(evidently) that #45 was the one who pushed operation warp speed?? the development of multiple vaccines!! from which came 2, maybe 3 depending on who's counting. the feat that all the "experts" said couldn't be done?? while the "others" were saying they wouldn't get it because #45 was behind it, they didn't trust it, etc etc
"Also it comes down to what is your goal for prevention which didn't seem important 9 months ago but is now (infection or severe infection, etc)."
i am assuming you don't mean me personally. we, as a world, need to come down hard on china. speaking of reparations, this was nasty evil. now the cover up is as bad as the crime. this cannot happen again. china could have prevented this from becoming a pandemic
Vaccines don't really do much good if a significant portion of the population won't take them and businesses are disincentivized from mandating them.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on August 12, 2021, 08:05:19 PM
Vaccines don't really do much good if a significant portion of the population won't take them and businesses are disincentivized from mandating them.
this is news to me, but i'm all ears here. what about those who've already had and recovered? what's significant? approx 48% or 160 million have been fully vaccinated. now add those who have had and recovered. yes, i understand there will be some crossover. vaccines prevent illness in many cases and diminish severity in most others.
so back to my question-what's significant?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 08:18:43 PM
this is news to me, but i'm all ears here. what about those who've already had and recovered? what's significant? approx 48% or 160 million have been fully vaccinated. now add those who have had and recovered. yes, i understand there will be some crossover. vaccines prevent illness in many cases and diminish severity in most others.
so back to my question-what's significant?
No. People who had and recovered aren't as protected as the vaccinated. This has been stated multiple times here, and exactly why the CDC is recommending vaccination.
Significant is a lot more than we have now.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on August 12, 2021, 08:21:30 PM
No. People who had and recovered aren't as protected as the vaccinated. This has been stated multiple times here, and exactly why the CDC is recommending vaccination.
Significant is a lot more than we have now.
i understand it may have been stated here multiple times-doesn't mean it is correct. i've read natural is better, but i can agreee the jury is still out. they don't know enough yet which is very understandable as some of what we used to think was fact has been replaced by new, updated data. it is going to be some time before a standard will be developed
how much more? it used to be...flatten the curve...then it became-when we get a vaccine...
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 08:54:11 PM
i understand it may have been stated here multiple times-doesn't mean it is correct. i've read natural is better, but i can agreee the jury is still out. they don't know enough yet which is very understandable as some of what we used to think was fact has been replaced by new, updated data. it is going to be some time before a standard will be developed
how much more? it used to be...flatten the curve...then it became-when we get a vaccine...
We haven't flattened the curve in places like Texas and Florida. Fueled by the unvaccinated.
Anyway I trust the CDC more than a dentist using Google.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm7032e1_w
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on August 12, 2021, 08:57:27 PM
We haven't flattened the curve in places like Texas and Florida. Fueled by the unvaccinated.
Anyway I trust the CDC more than a dentist using Google.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm7032e1_w
i've got a degree in biology with a heavy concentration on microbio plus dental school and all the bio that included-i think i know a little bit, but i am open. all due respect to your profession, but i think i'm a tick ahead of a college admin guy though
the cdc has shown time after time to be polluted and untrustworthy- they have made A LOT of mistakes
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 09:09:44 PM
i've got a degree in biology with a heavy concentration on microbio plus dental school and all the bio that included-i think i know a little bit, but i am open. all due respect to your profession, but i think i'm a tick ahead of a college admin guy though
the cdc has shown time after time to be polluted and untrustworthy- they have made A LOT of mistakes
This must be why you've stated that we really don't need peer reviewed studies, your "health care professional" background.
Oh oh, the former guy is going to be very, very angry at his hand-picked, ramrodded through SCOTUS pick.
Coronavirus: Supreme Court's Barrett rejects challenge to Indiana University's vaccination mandate - as it happened
https://www.ft.com/content/0fc81133-3c8f-4b59-bc95-4ea79d5fca8f
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 12, 2021, 09:17:32 PM
This must be why you've stated that we really don't need peer reviewed studies, your "health care professional" background.
i'm really sick and tired of your bullchit smith- go f@*c yourself
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 09:33:54 PM
i'm really sick and tired of your bullchit smith- go f@*c yourself
It's exactly what you said. I guess I am a bad, bad man for using your actual words. Very unfair of me.
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 12, 2021, 09:25:20 PM
Oh oh, the former guy is going to be very, very angry at his hand-picked, ramrodded through SCOTUS pick.
Coronavirus: Supreme Court's Barrett rejects challenge to Indiana University's vaccination mandate - as it happened
https://www.ft.com/content/0fc81133-3c8f-4b59-bc95-4ea79d5fca8f
They mad.
@EmeraldRobinson:
Amy Commie Barrett.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 07:50:03 PM
seriously and did he forget(evidently) that #45 was the one who pushed operation warp speed??
Here is what I said:
Which is especially crazy because their hero has been vaccinated and, after some prodding, he did finally urge his followers to get the vaccine that he actually worked to bring to fruition.I guess you don't have a degree in reading, because I
literally gave your lord and master credit.
I mean, your boy totally effed up just about everything else regarding the pandemic, which is a big reason why 500K Americans died on his watch. But yes, I'm happy he found the time between playing golf, throwing superspreader rallies and fomenting insurrections to push for Operation Warp Speed.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 12, 2021, 09:56:18 PM
They mad.
@EmeraldRobinson:
Amy Commie Barrett.
You expected anything reasonable from Newsmax?
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 12, 2021, 09:25:20 PM
Oh oh, the former guy is going to be very, very angry at his hand-picked, ramrodded through SCOTUS pick.
Coronavirus: Supreme Court's Barrett rejects challenge to Indiana University's vaccination mandate - as it happened
https://www.ft.com/content/0fc81133-3c8f-4b59-bc95-4ea79d5fca8f
Especially because she ruled the way a conservative would.
San Francisco announces strict requirements barring the unvaccinated from indoor spaces.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/12/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210812&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=66118&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#san-francisco-announces-strict-requirements-barring-the-unvaccinated-from-indoor-spaces
San Francisco leaders on Thursday unveiled some of the nation's toughest restrictions on unvaccinated people, barring them from indoor dining, bars, nightclubs, gyms, large concerts, theaters and other events held inside. The new rules, which take effect on Aug. 20, would apply even to people who can show they have tested negative for the coronavirus.
"This is an important step towards our recovery," Mayor London Breed said during a briefing announcing the new requirements. "We all have to do our part. We need to get vaccinated."
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 08:54:11 PM
i've read natural is better
Surprised you're in actual dentistry then, and not just homeopathic dentistry. Because "I've read nature is better".
Quote from: MU82 on August 12, 2021, 10:27:50 PM
San Francisco announces strict requirements barring the unvaccinated from indoor spaces.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/12/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20210812&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=66118&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa#san-francisco-announces-strict-requirements-barring-the-unvaccinated-from-indoor-spaces
San Francisco leaders on Thursday unveiled some of the nation's toughest restrictions on unvaccinated people, barring them from indoor dining, bars, nightclubs, gyms, large concerts, theaters and other events held inside. The new rules, which take effect on Aug. 20, would apply even to people who can show they have tested negative for the coronavirus.
"This is an important step towards our recovery," Mayor London Breed said during a briefing announcing the new requirements. "We all have to do our part. We need to get vaccinated."
However, unvaccinated and vaccinated alike are still welcomed to defecate on any and all public sidewalks
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 09:09:44 PM
i've got a degree in biology with a heavy concentration on microbio plus dental school and all the bio that included-i think i know a little bit, but i am open. all due respect to your profession, but i think i'm a tick ahead of a college admin guy though
No I am simply smart enough to realize my limitations. That's why I leave it to experts....and you are not one.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on August 12, 2021, 09:09:44 PM
the cdc has shown time after time to be polluted and untrustworthy- they have made A LOT of mistakes
They have made some, but they have been right WAY more than they've been wrong. And right WAAYYY more than you've been for the past 18 months.
Right now multiple states are out of hospital beds for kids. ICUs full of dying 30-40 year old COVID patients.
Hospitals overwhelmed. Almost completely across the south, and GOP strongholds.
If you turn on most news networks, you have interviews with hospital administrators and local government health leaders (most likely actually traditional GOP supporters) imploring people to get vaccinated and talking about how this wave is unprecedented.
This should have an impact in those states....except...the GOP stronghold states where this is occurring are not watching traditional news networks. They are watching Foxnews, OANN, and Newsmax, where you will see almost zero reporting on any of this. Instead it is focusing on border security, Chinese conspiracy theories, and anything you can possibly spin as negative for Biden/Congress.
That absurd inaction is killing people.
I emphasize this because of a real conversation I had with a person from one of these states hard hit. Traditional Southern Republican, who was attacking a local official for putting a mask mandate in schools. I asked them what should be done, if no masks, given how overwhelmed hospitals are and the surge in cases amongst the young.
There response was that it is all lies, and that the PCR tests don't even work, and if it was real you'd see it being reported on the "real" news (e.g. Foxnews, OANN, Newsmax), but it isn't, its only on the "fake" news. They and their family are proudly unvaccinated.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 09:16:34 AM
There response was that it is all lies, and that the PCR tests don't even work, and if it was real you'd see it being reported on the "real" news (e.g. Foxnews, OANN, Newsmax), but it isn't, its only on the "fake" news. They and their family are proudly unvaccinated.
Vaccinated America is at the point of saying "unnatural carnal knowledge these assholes".
This is a case where stupidity really is lethal. If they were harming only themselves it would be one thing, but they are affecting everyone else as well.
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 13, 2021, 10:36:25 AM
Vaccinated America is at the point of saying "unnatural carnal knowledge these pretty boys".
This is a case where stupidity really is lethal. If they were harming only themselves it would be one thing, but they are affecting everyone else as well.
And most importantly, everyone else's kids. When kids in heavily vaccinated areas start passing this around their schools in a month, I think we might see some real venom toward the unvaccinated from the silent majority.
Anybody seeing these new articles popping up that have titles like "No, unvaccinated people aren't ignorant or stupid. Here's why" and then they go on about their own choice, and how side effects happen with the vaccine so it becomes a choice between that or the chance they may get Covid...
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 13, 2021, 10:36:25 AM
Vaccinated America is at the point of saying "unnatural carnal knowledge these pretty boys".
Or past the point. The ignorance is stunning. The gene pool gets stronger every time another vaccine denier dies.
My concern is for the kids of these ignorant clods and the innocent people who will suffer.
Quote from: Jockey on August 13, 2021, 11:24:20 AM
Or past the point. The ignorance is stunning. The gene pool gets stronger every time another vaccine denier dies.
My concern is for the kids of these ignorant clods and the innocent people who will suffer.
It's not ignorance. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge and using that word implies that if provided with knowledge a person would adjust their perspective/actions. This is a complete lack of concern or caring for other people.
The disheartening thing is that it's not just this subject, it's pretty much a universal approach to all issues.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 09:16:34 AM
Right now multiple states are out of hospital beds for kids. ICUs full of dying 30-40 year old COVID patients.
Hospitals overwhelmed. Almost completely across the south, and GOP strongholds.
If you turn on most news networks, you have interviews with hospital administrators and local government health leaders (most likely actually traditional GOP supporters) imploring people to get vaccinated and talking about how this wave is unprecedented.
This should have an impact in those states....except...the GOP stronghold states where this is occurring are not watching traditional news networks. They are watching Foxnews, OANN, and Newsmax, where you will see almost zero reporting on any of this. Instead it is focusing on border security, Chinese conspiracy theories, and anything you can possibly spin as negative for Biden/Congress.
That absurd inaction is killing people.
I emphasize this because of a real conversation I had with a person from one of these states hard hit. Traditional Southern Republican, who was attacking a local official for putting a mask mandate in schools. I asked them what should be done, if no masks, given how overwhelmed hospitals are and the surge in cases amongst the young.
There response was that it is all lies, and that the PCR tests don't even work, and if it was real you'd see it being reported on the "real" news (e.g. Foxnews, OANN, Newsmax), but it isn't, its only on the "fake" news. They and their family are proudly unvaccinated.
From what I've read while the number of kids being hospitalized has gone up with Delta but despite that it's nowhere near the number of hospitalizations in kids due to RSV. If you want parents who are against masks to get on board the media should start highlighting RSV over Covid, much more dangerous to kids.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 11:53:29 AM
From what I've read while the number of kids being hospitalized has gone up with Delta but despite that it's nowhere near the number of hospitalizations in kids due to RSV. If you want parents who are against masks to get on board the media should start highlighting RSV over Covid, much more dangerous to kids.
So the theory here is that 600K+ Americans dead, 10,000's of hours of media coverage of the seriousness of COVID, a complete upending of 'normal', etc. didn't convince these parents to believe masking is important but changing the message to RSV will convince them? Not a chance.
The only thing that has a shot at changing their minds, and even this is questionable, is if their own kids get serious ill.
Quote from: naginiF on August 13, 2021, 11:49:42 AM
It's not ignorance. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge and using that word implies that if provided with knowledge a person would adjust their perspective/actions. This is a complete lack of concern or caring for other people.
The disheartening thing is that it's not just this subject, it's pretty much a universal approach to all issues.
I thought I had as little respect as possible for these people. You just made me respect them even less.
Quote from: naginiF on August 13, 2021, 12:06:48 PM
So the theory here is that 600K+ Americans dead, 10,000's of hours of media coverage of the seriousness of COVID, a complete upending of 'normal', etc. didn't convince these parents to believe masking is important but changing the message to RSV will convince them? Not a chance.
The only thing that has a shot at changing their minds, and even this is questionable, is if their own kids get serious ill.
Which RSV is far more likely of doing to kids......of the 600K deaths you mention, how many of those were kids under the age of 12? Parents making the argument against masks as a mitigation effort for kids under 12 is because kids that young aren't the ones affected by C19. Those are the ones however getting absolutely hammered by RSV right now.
If you're older then 12, get the shot.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 11:53:29 AM
From what I've read while the number of kids being hospitalized has gone up with Delta but despite that it's nowhere near the number of hospitalizations in kids due to RSV. If you want parents who are against masks to get on board the media should start highlighting RSV over Covid, much more dangerous to kids.
Do you have #'s for current hospitalizations of delta vs RSV?
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 13, 2021, 01:10:02 PM
Do you have #'s for current hospitalizations of delta vs RSV?
I hope Pace has the data, all I can find is data per state, so choosing Wisconsin I see about 120 RSV positives per week, and about 8400 covid cases per week (both moving averages, though different timeframes).
https://www.cdc.gov/surveillance/nrevss/images/rsvstate/RSV4PPCent3AVG_StateWI.htm
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases
Quote from: rocky_warrior on August 13, 2021, 01:50:04 PM
I hope Pace has the data, all I can find is data per state, so choosing Wisconsin I see about 120 RSV positives per week, and about 8400 covid cases per week (both moving averages, though different timeframes).
https://www.cdc.gov/surveillance/nrevss/images/rsvstate/RSV4PPCent3AVG_StateWI.htm
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases
RSV almost exclusively hospitalizes kids...to compare weekly Covid cases to RSV is apples and oranges. I'll try to track down if there is RSV tracking data. Remember reading a story earlier this week from Texas that 90% of kids hospitalized of respiratory illness was because of RSV, not Covid but I'll do some digging.
Quote from: naginiF on August 13, 2021, 12:06:48 PM
So the theory here is that 600K+ Americans dead, 10,000's of hours of media coverage of the seriousness of COVID, a complete upending of 'normal', etc. didn't convince these parents to believe masking is important but changing the message to RSV will convince them? Not a chance.
The only thing that has a shot at changing their minds, and even this is questionable, is if their own kids get serious ill.
Yep.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 01:53:37 PM
RSV almost exclusively hospitalizes kids...to compare weekly Covid cases to RSV is apples and oranges. I'll try to track down if there is RSV tracking data. Remember reading a story earlier this week from Texas that 90% of kids hospitalized of respiratory illness was because of RSV, not Covid but I'll do some digging.
CDC averages certainly don't show that. Certainly a lot of outpatient visits, but not hospitalizations (vs the elderly at about 3x the rate).
https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/research/us-surveillance.html
QuoteEach year in the United States, RSV leads, on average, to approximately—
2.1 million outpatient visits among children younger than 5 years old1
58,000 hospitalizations among children younger than 5 years old2
177,000 hospitalizations among adults 65 years and older3
14,000 deaths among adults 65 years and older3
edit, and again, there were only 2200 RSV detections in the entire country last week. I have a feeling you've been misinformed about the # of hospitalizations:
https://www.cdc.gov/surveillance/nrevss/images/trend_images/RSV14Num_Nat.htm
Final edit: Not saying RSV & Hospitalizations aren't an issue that masking could help, I'm just not certain it's on the scale of covid, or something that going to get anti-mask parents to change their mind - when their kids have survived RSV before.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on August 13, 2021, 02:02:44 PM
CDC averages certainly don't show that. Certainly a lot of outpatient visits, but not hospitalizations (vs the elderly at about 3x the rate).
https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/research/us-surveillance.html
edit, and again, there were only 2200 RSV detections in the entire country last week. I have a feeling you've been misinformed about the # of hospitalizations:
https://www.cdc.gov/surveillance/nrevss/images/trend_images/RSV14Num_Nat.htm
I'm talking about hospitalizations of kids not overall or compared to elderly. Probably out my original post under the wrong thread but meant to have it framed in the mask or no mask as we go back to school. Was arguing if a lot of these mask hesitant parents saw more about RSV on the news maybe that would help move them to being more in favor of masks for 12 and under ages.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 01:53:37 PM
RSV almost exclusively hospitalizes kids...to compare weekly Covid cases to RSV is apples and oranges. I'll try to track down if there is RSV tracking data. Remember reading a story earlier this week from Texas that 90% of kids hospitalized of respiratory illness was because of RSV, not Covid but I'll do some digging.
Thanks. I'd just like to see the evidence you're referencing.
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 13, 2021, 02:40:43 PM
Thanks. I'd just like to see the evidence you're referencing.
https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/research/us-surveillance.html
Link above shows on average almost 60,000 hospitalizations a year with RSV just for kids 5 or younger. More then 2.1 million outpatient visits on average (for just 5 years and younger alone)
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html
In 2020 and 2021 combined per above link from CDC there were only 3500 hospitalizations for kids 17 and younger for Covid.
And if this RSV season is off to an earlier start then normal will be interesting to see how bad it gets once we hit the normal peak season of Nov/Dec.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 03:09:40 PM
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html
In 2020 and 2021 combined per above link from CDC there were only 3500 hospitalizations for kids 17 and younger for Covid.
Seems woefully out of date, given that 1,600 kids were hospitalized with COVID just last week alone.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/11/covid-children-hospitals-schools-reopen-503885
Quote from: Pakuni on August 13, 2021, 03:18:51 PM
Seems woefully out of date, given that 1,600 kids were hospitalized with COVID just last week alone.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/11/covid-children-hospitals-schools-reopen-503885
Last update was August 6th it says so lagging a bit for sure. These are also numbers for laboratory confirmed, not sure what exactly that means.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 03:09:40 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/research/us-surveillance.html
Link above shows on average almost 60,000 hospitalizations a year with RSV just for kids 5 or younger. More then 2.1 million outpatient visits on average (for just 5 years and younger alone)
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html
In 2020 and 2021 combined per above link from CDC there were only 3500 hospitalizations for kids 17 and younger for Covid.
And if this RSV season is off to an earlier start then normal will be interesting to see how bad it gets once we hit the normal peak season of Nov/Dec.
The Covid data isn't remotely accurate. TX alone has had 5800+ children hospitalized, 15% of which occurred in the last month alone.
Children's hospitals are filling up with COVID patients. Yes, it is made worse by RSV, but COVID is more dangerous for kids than RSV. This is just a fact.
Curious what right wing source is pumping these RSV arguments, because it is one that is widely circulating amongst the GOP base, and one contradicted by actual data.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 04:23:45 PM
The Covid data isn't remotely accurate. TX alone has had 5800+ children hospitalized, 15% of which occurred in the last month alone.
Children's hospitals are filling up with COVID patients. Yes, it is made worse by RSV, but COVID is more dangerous for kids than RSV. This is just a fact.
Curious what right wing source is pumping these RSV arguments, because it is one that is widely circulating amongst the GOP base, and one contradicted by actual data.
Sorry forgetful you're not following the science on this one. And I don't think the argument is what one is worse the. The other. They're both bad, one has just led to unbelievable social and educational disruption.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 04:23:45 PM
Curious what right wing source is pumping these RSV arguments, because it is one that is widely circulating amongst the GOP base, and one contradicted by actual data.
I think I found one of the sources, or at least a mouthpiece:
https://www.wftv.com/news/local/data-shows-kids-more-likely-get-rsv-than-covid-19-desantis-says/5N7E3RYHKRHORNS7UUTNJG3VSA/
Quote"COVID, I view as a very minor risk," DeSantis said. "RSV is a little more serious and it just shows certain things that are focused on versus not. I've had doctors tell me that parents have come in with kids who were sick that have gotten a negative COVID test and a positive RSV and the parents were relived at that."
The governor said that data shows that fewer kids are getting sick with COVID-19 and they are more likely to get respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, than COVID-19.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 05:17:51 PM
Sorry forgetful you're not following the science on this one. And I don't think the argument is what one is worse the. The other. They're both bad, one has just led to unbelievable social and educational disruption.
According to the CDC, kids severely infected by RSV often have pre-existing conditions.
So does that even count?
Those at greatest risk for severe illness from RSV include:
Premature infants
Very young infants, especially those 6 months and younger
Children younger than 2 years old with chronic lung disease or congenital (present from birth) heart disease
Children with weakened immune systems
Children who have neuromuscular disorders, including those who have difficulty swallowing or clearing mucus secretionshttps://www.cdc.gov/rsv/high-risk/infants-young-children.html
If it's such a bad problem, an easy fix out be to have kids....wear masks.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 13, 2021, 05:57:28 PM
If it's such a bad problem, an easy fix out be to have kids....wear masks.
Which if you go back and read this was exactly my point.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 13, 2021, 05:41:56 PM
According to the CDC, kids severely infected by RSV often have pre-existing conditions.
So does that even count?
Those at greatest risk for severe illness from RSV include:
Premature infants
Very young infants, especially those 6 months and younger
Children younger than 2 years old with chronic lung disease or congenital (present from birth) heart disease
Children with weakened immune systems
Children who have neuromuscular disorders, including those who have difficulty swallowing or clearing mucus secretions
https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/high-risk/infants-young-children.html
What's your point? With c19 it's the same thing. 80% of mortality from C19 is with just one ore-existing condition, obesity.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on August 13, 2021, 05:18:03 PM
I think I found one of the sources, or at least a mouthpiece:
https://www.wftv.com/news/local/data-shows-kids-more-likely-get-rsv-than-covid-19-desantis-says/5N7E3RYHKRHORNS7UUTNJG3VSA/
A virus the CDC tracks annually and something children's hospitals are constantly talking about when it's "in season" but ya it's Death Santis's fault. When your singular view in life is political then all things must be political I suppose.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 05:17:51 PM
Sorry forgetful you're not following the science on this one. And I don't think the argument is what one is worse the. The other. They're both bad, one has just led to unbelievable social and educational disruption.
You made an argument that RSV is worse. Claimed it is responsible for 90% of the hospitalizations right now. That is all false. You have provided little to no evidence of either, except pulling surveillance data from the CDC.
I indicated your choice of data for COVID is invalid, as it is surveillance data. If you believe that data, then it would say that only ~196,000 people total have been hospitalized with COVID period. Over 600,000 have died. This should be enough to prove that your data sources don't reflect what you think they do.
Children's hospitals are all full right now, the vast majority of cases are COVID. RSV has made it worse. but is a minor percentage of cases, and largely strictly under the age of 5. These are facts and widely confirmed in media.
That is the science. That is the data.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 07:06:48 PM
You made an argument that RSV is worse. Claimed it is responsible for 90% of the hospitalizations right now. That is all false. You have provided little to no evidence of either, except pulling surveillance data from the CDC.
I indicated your choice of data for COVID is invalid, as it is surveillance data. If you believe that data, then it would say that only ~196,000 people total have been hospitalized with COVID period. Over 600,000 have died. This should be enough to prove that your data sources don't reflect what you think they do.
Children's hospitals are all full right now, the vast majority of cases are COVID. RSV has made it worse. but is a minor percentage of cases, and largely strictly under the age of 5. These are facts and widely confirmed in media.
That is the science. That is the data.
That's not true. Children's hospitals are full, they are always full, some are Covid definitely not the majority.
What are the real numbers then? I'm not arguing Covid isn't a threat to kids (especially delta) but there are other very real threats that have been around forever that we just dealt with without implementing draconian measures.
By the end of the school year last year the argument was the masks weren't to protect the kids because it was acknowledged by all parties that kids were largely unaffected by C19 but the masks, virtual learning was all necessary still to protect the teachers/grandma and grandpa living in the basement. Well those people can now all get vaccinated so the goal posts have now been completely shifted.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 07:18:54 PM
That's not true. Children's hospitals are full, they are always full, some are Covid definitely not the majority.
What are the real numbers then? I'm not arguing Covid isn't a threat to kids (especially delta) but there are other very real threats that have been around forever that we just dealt with without implementing draconian measures.
By the end of the school year last year the argument was the masks weren't to protect the kids because it was acknowledged by all parties that kids were largely unaffected by C19 but the masks, virtual learning was all necessary still to protect the teachers/grandma and grandpa living in the basement. Well those people can now all get vaccinated so the goal posts have now been completely shifted.
Where did you get the numbers/evidence for your original statement regarding RSV vs covid?
But yeah, not Covid , hospitals are always full
Mississippi hospital puts beds in parking garage to cope with COVID-19 surge
https://www.compuserve.com/news/story/0002/20210814/KBN2FE1Z3_2
Jupiter Medical Center pauses elective surgeries in midst of COVID-19 surge
https://www.wptv.com/coronavirus/jupiter-medical-center-pauses-elective-surgeries-in-midst-of-covid-19-surge
Dallas is running out of pediatric ICU beds, official warns. 'Your child will wait for another child to die.'
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-fort-worth-childrens-hospitals-regain-icu-bed-availability/2717992/
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 07:18:54 PM
By the end of the school year last year the argument was the masks weren't to protect the kids because it was acknowledged by all parties that kids were largely unaffected by C19 but the masks, virtual learning was all necessary still to protect the teachers/grandma and grandpa living in the basement. Well those people can now all get vaccinated so the goal posts have now been completely shifted.
Delta happened. Delta is different. Hospitals and ICU's are full with people who are under 40. Lots of 20's and 30-somethings.
This variant is different, hitting kids very hard too.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 07:06:48 PM
You made an argument that RSV is worse. Claimed it is responsible for 90% of the hospitalizations right now. That is all false. You have provided little to no evidence of either, except pulling surveillance data from the CDC.
I indicated your choice of data for COVID is invalid, as it is surveillance data. If you believe that data, then it would say that only ~196,000 people total have been hospitalized with COVID period. Over 600,000 have died. This should be enough to prove that your data sources don't reflect what you think they do.
Children's hospitals are all full right now, the vast majority of cases are COVID. RSV has made it worse. but is a minor percentage of cases, and largely strictly under the age of 5. These are facts and widely confirmed in media.
That is the science. That is the data.
On August 12th, Texas which is obviously going through a sh*t storm right now with their Delta surge had beds occupancy of 88%. Of that less then 18% were Covid patients. That's the same for the vast vast majority of hospitals. 20% of a hospitals bed capacity being dedicated to one virus is nothing to ignore but to suggest it's all Covid people causing hospitals to be over run is not even close to true.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 08:05:52 PM
Delta happened. Delta is different. Hospitals and ICU's are full with people who are under 40. Lots of 20's and 30-somethings.
This variant is different, hitting kids very hard too.
You keep saying that, just don't think the data backs it up. I keep looking for it but can't find anything to support that. Do you have a link or anything with the actual data?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 06:59:46 PM
What's your point? With c19 it's the same thing. 80% of mortality from C19 is with just one ore-existing condition, obesity.
That is the point.
For 16 months people who insist on minimizing COVID - like you - have returned over and over to preexisting conditions. But now you're all pretending to be alarmed by RSV (not because you all actually care about RSV ... you almost certainly never even heard about RSV until it became a talking point this week), despite the fact most of the serious cases come with preexisting conditions.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 08:12:31 PM
You keep saying that, just don't think the data backs it up. I keep looking for it but can't find anything to support that. Do you have a link or anything with the actual data?
You keep making statements with zero data and then ask people to prove you wrong.
Here is the data.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admissions
(https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admissions)
During all of COVID, the highest rates of hospitalizations in 30-39 year olds was 2 per 100,000 population. Right now it is 2.52, a 25% increase. For 70+ age bracket, during the peaks it was near 20 per 100,000 population, now it is 7, a decline of of 65%. Similarly, hospitalization rates of 0-17, 18-29, and 40-49 are all at all-time highs increasing by 20-25% from previous peaks.
We also have record high hospitalizations in places like Florida and TX. That proves the demographics have shifted.
Right now every day, around 800 new kids are hospitalized with COVID. That incidence rate would amount to almost 300,000 child hospitalizations a year.
And that is the nationwide numbers. The age demographics and case reports from the south where Delta is hitting hard (e.g. Florida, Texas, etc.) is even worse. All that data is in the link above too.
There's the data that proves I'm following the science and speaking to truth. Where is yours?
Quote from: Pakuni on August 13, 2021, 08:33:05 PM
That is the point.
For 16 months people who insist on minimizing COVID - like you - have returned over and over to preexisting conditions. But now you're all pretending to be alarmed by RSV (not because you all actually care about RSV ... you almost certainly never even heard about RSV until it became a talking point this week), despite the fact most of the serious cases come with preexisting conditions.
I'm not alarmed by RSV nor am I alarmed by Covid when it comes to kids. Both are something that can be dangerous(same for influenza) but for 2 of those 3 we just live with the risk and the show goes on. With the 3rd it's if you're not fully in favor of masks, at home schooling, etc etc then you're a Covid denier.
Also, note that I linked to the actual on the ground data.
Not the surveillance testing that you tried to pass off as total numbers.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 08:56:36 PM
You keep making statements with zero data and then ask people to prove you wrong.
Here is the data.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admissions
(https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#new-hospital-admissions)
During all of COVID, the highest rates of hospitalizations in 30-39 year olds was 2 per 100,000 population. Right now it is 2.52, a 25% increase. For 70+ age bracket, during the peaks it was near 20 per 100,000 population, now it is 7, a decline of of 65%. Similarly, hospitalization rates of 0-17, 18-29, and 40-49 are all at all-time highs increasing by 20-25% from previous peaks.
We also have record high hospitalizations in places like Florida and TX. That proves the demographics have shifted.
Right now every day, around 800 new kids are hospitalized with COVID. That incidence rate would amount to almost 300,000 child hospitalizations a year.
And that is the nationwide numbers. The age demographics and case reports from the south where Delta is hitting hard (e.g. Florida, Texas, etc.) is even worse. All that data is in the link above too.
There's the data that proves I'm following the science and speaking to truth. Where is yours?
That data is 0-17. We've been talking 12 and under who currently can't get vaccinated. And i included my link to the RSV numbers?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 09:04:49 PM
That data is 0-17. We've been talking 12 and under who currently can't get vaccinated. And i included my link to the RSV numbers?
If we use the methodology from your link and apply it to COVID, then there are 300,000 COVID hospitalizations in children every year, 6x the rate of RSV (and I'm being more stringent on COVID than how the RSV method was conducted). This is consistent with the current data I linked.
Next were talking about children period. Only once has under 12 come up, a comment you made to someone else. Please don't try to move goal posts when data is presented to prove you wrong.
Now, you have supplied zero evidence that RSV is to blame for the current crises (your initial claim; regarding my statement re. hospitalizations in the South), your data on RSV indicates that it is 6x less dangerous than COVID in terms of hospitalizations. I'll note, that the study behind your link found ZERO deaths from RSV.
I've now gone far further down a rabbit hole of futility than I intended. I'm going to go wash down some Arbys with an 18-year old Sherry Oak Macallan.
Quote from: forgetful on August 13, 2021, 09:49:27 PM
If we use the methodology from your link and apply it to COVID, then there are 300,000 COVID hospitalizations in children every year, 6x the rate of RSV (and I'm being more stringent on COVID than how the RSV method was conducted). This is consistent with the current data I linked.
Next were talking about children period. Only once has under 12 come up, a comment you made to someone else. Please don't try to move goal posts when data is presented to prove you wrong.
Now, you have supplied zero evidence that RSV is to blame for the current crises (your initial claim; regarding my statement re. hospitalizations in the South), your data on RSV indicates that it is 6x less dangerous than COVID in terms of hospitalizations. I'll note, that the study behind your link found ZERO deaths from RSV.
I've now gone far further down a rabbit hole of futility than I intended. I'm going to go wash down some Arbys with an 18-year old Sherry Oak Macallan.
Well laaa deee daaaa, an 18 year old sherry oak Macallan....you don't say!
I'm going to go finish my 30 rack of Busch Light, how's that fancy pants?
By the way check your facts on RSV mortality, know it all.
https://www.medscape.com/answers/300455-107817/what-is-the-mortality-and-morbidity-of-respiratory-syncytial-virus-rsv-pneumonia
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 07:02:25 PM
A virus the CDC tracks annually and something children's hospitals are constantly talking about when it's "in season" but ya it's Death Santis's fault. When your singular view in life is political then all things must be political I suppose.
So you and DeSantis having the same talking point (which is false) is just a coincidence? I think not. Someone else wondered what news sources you were getting your talking point from, I just happened to find someone trying to say the exact same WRONG thing as you.
And if you think I'm singularly political, you don't know me at all.
the cdc has been wrong on too many things. very difficult to trust them as they seem to be a little too close to the political sun-
https://www.newsweek.com/florida-factcheck-covid-cdc-department-health-true-amend-figures-1618765
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/2338743345532/cdc-took-mistaken-data-on-delta-variant-transmissibility-from-a-new-york-times-infographic
i'm sure i could go on and on, but we need access to some alternative sources. problem is, too many worship the cdc while many alternative sources are immediately beat down, cancelled, etc...we need to think a little more outside the box. there are some very credible sources out there, but many are hesitant to speak out for fear of losing funding, peer support...
No. The problem is too many people are using completely bullsh!t sources.
We have a saying on our department. The idiot who thinks he is a genius will get you killed.
Quote from: tower912 on August 14, 2021, 07:25:19 AM
No. The problem is too many people are using completely bullsh!t sources.
Well whatever source was used that is making a man who got Covid naturally and is also double vaccinated wear a mask 24-7 aside from eating and sleeping should be lit on fire.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 13, 2021, 10:33:08 PM
Well laaa deee daaaa, an 18 year old sherry oak Macallan....you don't say!
I'm going to go finish my 30 rack of Busch Light, how's that fancy pants?
By the way check your facts on RSV mortality, know it all.
https://www.medscape.com/answers/300455-107817/what-is-the-mortality-and-morbidity-of-respiratory-syncytial-virus-rsv-pneumonia
My statement on RSV was clearly indicated in reference to the scientific study behind your linked numbers from the CDC. That study found zero deaths.
Your linking to a question/answer session on Medscape is not a valid source of data.
But the point wasn't that there are zero deaths from RSV, I'm well aware that there are. The point is two-fold: 1) Using surveillance data extrapolated to the entire population vs. even cumulative data on COVID is not a valid comparison, if you treat the data the same, you get results that prove you wrong. 2) We don't have accurate data for RSV, why? Because we don't test for it widely. RSV hospitalizations and death get lumped together with influenza-like-illnesses and pneumonia. All the "flu" data people have been reporting forever, includes RSV numbers, because that is how we do it in the US. Notably, even those numbers are projections to the entire population and not hard/fast data on actual cases.
So why do we lump all those together? Because even when combined, they are still an order of magnitude lower in death/hospitalization/disability than COVID alone. It is not worth our effort to isolate the specific illnesses.
Flu, RSV, other coronaviruses and a host of other diseases are all lumped together into influenza-like-illnesses and pneumonia. Combined they are a blip on the radar compared to COVID.
At this point, you are clearly arguing for the sake of arguing, and digging up random online sources that you think support your point of view (but don't).
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 14, 2021, 07:33:55 AM
Well whatever source was used that is making a man who got Covid naturally and is also double vaccinated wear a mask 24-7 aside from eating and sleeping should be lit on fire.
A colleague in that category just got COVID again, and spread it to several coworkers. They got it from their child, who acquired it at school where no masks are required.
Quote from: forgetful on August 14, 2021, 07:36:42 AM
A colleague in that category just got COVID again, and spread it to several coworkers. They got it from their child, who acquired it at school where no masks are required.
You have a friend who was been fully vaccinated and just got Covid a second time naturally?!?!? A couple to many 18 year olds last night for you forgetful??
I have had PA2 on ignore so long that i had no idea he was referencing me. Wow.
Statistically speaking, it is unlikely i will get a debilitating case of COVID in the near future. But i can still get and spread the delta variant quite easily. And as I am frequently in contact with the sick, elderly, compromised population, it is completely logical to protect them from me as well as myself from them.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 14, 2021, 07:41:23 AM
You have a friend who was been fully vaccinated and just got Covid a second time naturally?!?!? A couple to many 18 year olds last night for you forgetful??
Not a friend. A colleague that works with me. But yes, and actually more than one. For the one I mentioned, I'm just aware of the contact tracing side of it.
This isn't even that unheard of, as Tower correctly notes, statistically speaking it is not high, but it is occurring and the CDC and rule-governing bodies (schools, local government entities etc.) are aware of it and revised guidance.
In large institutions, think schools/universities, the statistics are sufficient that over the course of a school year you are going to have multiple of these incidences. And with Delta, in a room with a large number of unmasked people, each incidence will likely lead to 5-10 additional infections that then propagate exponentially, leading to a rapid shutdown in the ability to provide in person instruction. The only logical remedy to allow in person instruction to continue is for a universal mask policy. Anything else, logistically speaking, is a piss-poor decision.
Politics.
Politics.
I guess Chico's could only keep the ruse up for so long, blew way past my over/under.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 14, 2021, 07:41:23 AM
You have a friend who was been fully vaccinated and just got Covid a second time naturally?!?!? A couple to many 18 year olds last night for you forgetful??
No doubt the colleague is a southern red state gun owner too. ::)
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 14, 2021, 07:41:23 AM
You have a friend who was been fully vaccinated and just got Covid a second time naturally?!?!? A couple to many 18 year olds last night for you forgetful??
(https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/norwegian-troll-picture-id162595160?k=6&m=162595160&s=612x612&w=0&h=inoKGGNn2HMizFA7euYZMckjwo2zR-gKUFlqevH0QPM=)
Cardinal Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis, has COVID-19, is on ventilator
Caught it in Wisconsin.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cardinal-burke-has-covid-is-on-ventilator/article_28639900-9c76-5481-b7ad-62266e605d0b.html
According to the National Catholic Reporter, Burke "has expressed skepticism about the need for distancing measures to contain the coronavirus and has opposed mandatory vaccination schemes."
In a homily given last December, Burke called COVID the "Wuhan virus," and said, "It has been used by certain forces inimical to families and to the freedom of nations, to advance their evil agenda."
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 15, 2021, 04:31:04 PM
Cardinal Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis, has COVID-19, is on ventilator
Caught it in Wisconsin.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cardinal-burke-has-covid-is-on-ventilator/article_28639900-9c76-5481-b7ad-62266e605d0b.html
According to the National Catholic Reporter, Burke "has expressed skepticism about the need for distancing measures to contain the coronavirus and has opposed mandatory vaccination schemes."
In a homily given last December, Burke called COVID the "Wuhan virus," and said, "It has been used by certain forces inimical to families and to the freedom of nations, to advance their evil agenda."
Thoughts.
And prayers
Ah man, hate to see it.
Cardinal: "come on God. I DARE you to kill me'.
Quote from: Jockey on August 16, 2021, 01:25:26 PM
Cardinal: "come on God. I DARE you to kill me'.
Reminds me of the Gene Hackman scene near the end of The Poseidon Adventure.
I just don't even know what to say. There are people out there that believe the most bizarro things. I don't know, maybe I am the nutty one, but I just don't see how anyone can believe like this guy does...and this post is relatively mild. Anyway, here is a post from another message board. He is answering another poster that asked how his wife and son were doing because they got the vaccine.
------------------------
My wife and son -- neither one -- have had any explicit issues to date with being vaxxed.
Doesn't mean they won't. I hope and pray they won't. I strongly suspect that my son -- in getting vaxxed has surrendered his capacity to father children.
I can talk to my son about it ... but conversations about vaccination, covid or the fascists or the lying media ... all off limits with my wife.
At some point everyone has to think for themselves or decide ... not to think at all. Fear shuts down the ability to think rationally in some folks. There are also some who have a desperate need to conform and be in the majority -- that is perhaps worse.
What is clear to me is that the media, government officials are colluding in one massive psy op. The pandemic is truly one of mass psychosis.
Church I attend is close to split down the middle, I suppose ... but I don't ask folks or discuss my views there openly on covid, except obliquely as I remind others we are admonished in scripture to fear nothing, only God. This is a very sensitive subject as one of our own was recently killed .... probably not by covid, but by the covid treatment protocols when he was admitted to hospital for pneumonia. There are a few of our number that would recognize he was killed by the covid protocols -- but I think most would not.
I don't think vaccination ( it's not really vaccination -- that's when you are injected with a heat-killed virus -- not a bio-weapon) is the "mark of the beast."
But it is 1) terribly foolish to submit and 2) a war crime on the part of those offering without disclosure of resultant death and disabilities. I don't attribute sin to those who are deceived in one way or another, but they sure have to close their eyes to a lot at this point.
However, I do think there is a spiritual warfare aspect to it ... just not that the vaxx magically marks one out. I think instead ... demonic powers are at work in the likes of Fauci, Gates and, sad to say, even Francis Collins and others down the chain of "authority." My worldview can't but attribute the perpetuation of massive lies that cause great harms to others to the work of Satan or his minions. That's his business and he is not done yet -- but he will be.
As to whether I can be harmed by being in proximity to vaxxed individuals, including my wife? I suspect there is a chance of that as the vaxed are more, not less likely, to communicate covid to others while being "unsymptomatic." But I also believe I had covid without getting SARS in March of 2020.
I'm not leaving my wife or disowning my son because they have made what I consider to be an awful choice related to their own health. I will try to help them if they start to have significant side effects and I am very watchful to this end.
But the whole unsymptomatic thing before used to push everyone to mask up?
I agree with Yeadon on this -- people generally who are most covid contagious -- or contagious with any respiratory condition -- have manifest symptoms.
That may have changed with the vaccine. If the vaccines have any efficacy at all (in doubt, in my opinion) it's possible vaxxed carriers of covid could show less symptoms -- at least initially and be infectious to others?
Quote from: SERocks on August 16, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
I just don't even know what to say. There are people out there that believe the most bizarro things. I don't know, maybe I am the nutty one, but I just don't see how anyone can believe like this guy does...and this post is relatively mild. Anyway, here is a post from another message board. He is answering another poster that asked how his wife and son were doing because they got the vaccine.
------------------------
My wife and son -- neither one -- have had any explicit issues to date with being vaxxed.
Doesn't mean they won't. I hope and pray they won't. I strongly suspect that my son -- in getting vaxxed has surrendered his capacity to father children.
I can talk to my son about it ... but conversations about vaccination, covid or the fascists or the lying media ... all off limits with my wife.
At some point everyone has to think for themselves or decide ... not to think at all. Fear shuts down the ability to think rationally in some folks. There are also some who have a desperate need to conform and be in the majority -- that is perhaps worse.
What is clear to me is that the media, government officials are colluding in one massive psy op. The pandemic is truly one of mass psychosis.
Church I attend is close to split down the middle, I suppose ... but I don't ask folks or discuss my views there openly on covid, except obliquely as I remind others we are admonished in scripture to fear nothing, only God. This is a very sensitive subject as one of our own was recently killed .... probably not by covid, but by the covid treatment protocols when he was admitted to hospital for pneumonia. There are a few of our number that would recognize he was killed by the covid protocols -- but I think most would not.
I don't think vaccination ( it's not really vaccination -- that's when you are injected with a heat-killed virus -- not a bio-weapon) is the "mark of the beast."
But it is 1) terribly foolish to submit and 2) a war crime on the part of those offering without disclosure of resultant death and disabilities. I don't attribute sin to those who are deceived in one way or another, but they sure have to close their eyes to a lot at this point.
However, I do think there is a spiritual warfare aspect to it ... just not that the vaxx magically marks one out. I think instead ... demonic powers are at work in the likes of Fauci, Gates and, sad to say, even Francis Collins and others down the chain of "authority." My worldview can't but attribute the perpetuation of massive lies that cause great harms to others to the work of Satan or his minions. That's his business and he is not done yet -- but he will be.
As to whether I can be harmed by being in proximity to vaxxed individuals, including my wife? I suspect there is a chance of that as the vaxed are more, not less likely, to communicate covid to others while being "unsymptomatic." But I also believe I had covid without getting SARS in March of 2020.
I'm not leaving my wife or disowning my son because they have made what I consider to be an awful choice related to their own health. I will try to help them if they start to have significant side effects and I am very watchful to this end.
But the whole unsymptomatic thing before used to push everyone to mask up?
I agree with Yeadon on this -- people generally who are most covid contagious -- or contagious with any respiratory condition -- have manifest symptoms.
That may have changed with the vaccine. If the vaccines have any efficacy at all (in doubt, in my opinion) it's possible vaxxed carriers of covid could show less symptoms -- at least initially and be infectious to others?
That guy's wife should be a saint if not already.
Quote from: Jockey on August 16, 2021, 01:25:26 PM
Cardinal: "come on God. I DARE you to kill me'.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-02-2018/Xix-60.gif)
Quote from: cheebs09 on August 16, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
That guy's wife should be a saint if not already.
She should get out before this guy decides to take steps to make her martyrdom literal and not figurative.
The Las Vegas Raiders are the first NFL team to announce it will require all game attendees to provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination, which will allow fans to attend games without wearing a mask. The policy will take effect Sept. 13 against the Baltimore Ravens, the Raiders' regular-season home opener.
"Health and safety have always been our number one priority," Raiders owner Mark Davis said. "After consultation with Governor (Steve) Sisolak and other community leaders, this policy ensures that we will be able to operate at full capacity without masks for fully vaccinated fans for the entire season."
The Raiders will also offer vaccinations on site at Allegiant Stadium prior to Raiders home games, allowing newly vaccinated fans to attend wearing a mask.
Last week, the New Orleans Saints announced they will require fans to wear masks and show proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test taken within 72 hours of home games at Caesars Superdome.
https://theathletic.com/news/raiders-first-to-require-proof-of-covid-19-vaccinations-to-attend-home-games/EKJuXvJaVnPu?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
I love that the Raiders are also using this as an opportunity to distribute the vaccines!
Not surprising that booster shots are being advocated for 8 months after your second shot. I wish there was a way to get it this fall at the same time as the flu shot, but the timing is just wrong. Alas. Probably in 2022 there will be a twofer.
Quote from: tower912 on August 18, 2021, 02:29:39 PM
Not surprising that booster shots are being advocated for 8 months after your second shot. I wish there was a way to get it this fall at the same time as the flu shot, but the timing is just wrong. Alas. Probably in 2022 there will be a twofer.
Well...as a test, a person at my company walked into a local pharmacy night before last. He told them he was fully vaxxed, but if they had shots laying around he'd certainly take a booster. No at-risk conditions other than age, and he is only 5 months out from his original shots.
They gave it to him with no problem. He was basically doing it for research to see what would happen.
So...
Intriguing...
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 18, 2021, 02:34:27 PM
Well...as a test, a person at my company walked into a local pharmacy night before last. He told them he was fully vaxxed, but if they had shots laying around he'd certainly take a booster. No at-risk conditions other than age, and he is only 5 months out from his original shots.
They gave it to him with no problem. He was basically doing it for research to see what would happen.
So...
I think there are a fair number of people doing just that.
I joked with some people about picking up the Moderna and JNJ just to round out my existing Pfizer.
Pope Francis: Getting vaccinated is an act of love.
Shocked, I'm shocked!
As it turns out, DeSantis' No. 1 political donor has invested nearly $16 million in shares of Regeneron Pharmaceutical, the maker of the monoclonal antibody treatment.
https://www.rawstory.com/desantis-top-donor-has-invested-millions-in-antibody-treatment-he-s-been-promoting/
so im seeing vax effectiveness fades now as mentioned. are we gonna get 60% plus of americans to get a booster shot every 8 months?? when does apathy set in? seems like what this means is covid will just perpetually be common going forward. maybe not 100s of thoudands of cases a day but proablly 60k-90k a day just gonna be the norm for years. am i missing somthing just blows the shots dont retain their strenght
Quote from: Johnny B on August 18, 2021, 06:16:10 PM
so im seeing vax effectiveness fades now as mentioned. are we gonna get 60% plus of americans to get a booster shot every 8 months?? when does apathy set in? seems like what this means is covid will just perpetually be common going forward. maybe not 100s of thoudands of cases a day but proablly 60k-90k a day just gonna be the norm for years. am i missing somthing just blows the shots dont retain their strenght
I go to the dentist every six months and that's way less convenient than getting a vaccine.
But the more people who get vaccinated the less there will be a need for boosters.
https://www.audacy.com/wbbm780/news/local/chicago-cardinal-to-priests-dont-endorse-vaccine-exemption
Cardinal Cupich advises Chicago archdiocesan priests not to hand out religious exemption letters.
I have said since prior to the availability of the vaccines that I thought it would be an annual thing like flu shots. I assume we will be getting a twofer.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 18, 2021, 05:42:45 PM
Shocked, I'm shocked!
As it turns out, DeSantis' No. 1 political donor has invested nearly $16 million in shares of Regeneron Pharmaceutical, the maker of the monoclonal antibody treatment.
https://www.rawstory.com/desantis-top-donor-has-invested-millions-in-antibody-treatment-he-s-been-promoting/
You'll be more shocked when you find out how much he donated to Biden as well who is also pushing Regeneron.
When you're the runaway favorite for the Republican nomination you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 18, 2021, 09:28:14 PM
You'll be more shocked when you find out how much he donated to Biden as well who is also pushing Regeneron.
Please share the information. Enquiring minds want to know.
Quote from: MU82 on August 18, 2021, 09:46:47 PM
Please share the information. Enquiring minds want to know.
Come on Olberman, all those years in the media and you don't have a source for this?
End of the day it doesn't matter if $0 or $1 billion dollars was donated to a political leader. Regeneron has been getting pushed from all angles and will save lives. Death Santis is following the science on this one folks.
Quote from: MU82 on August 18, 2021, 09:46:47 PM
Please share the information. Enquiring minds want to know.
Fine.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KirbyWTweets/status/1427739234597851141
Sorry wrong thread. Here's the article.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatindera/2021/04/20/bill-gates-ken-griffin-among-billionaire-donors-to-president-bidens-inaugural-committee/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Regarding previous thread though. Was shocked to see Florida is top 20 in vaccination rate per Capita, would have figured they were bottom 3 or 4 with DEATH Santis leading the charge.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 18, 2021, 10:07:43 PM
Fine.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KirbyWTweets/status/1427739234597851141
Wow, he donated 0 to Biden. And over $10m to DeSantis. Thanks for pointing out that huge disparity.
Meanwhile Desantis again today downplayed the $20 vaccines and touted the $1000 treatment that can only be dispensed to a few hundred people a day, while Florida had over 20,000 new cases. He's both fiscally irresponsible and bad at math.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 18, 2021, 10:17:32 PM
Wow, he donated 0 to Biden. And over $10m to DeSantis. Thanks for pointing out that huge disparity.
Meanwhile Desantis again today downplayed the $20 vaccines and touted the $1000 treatment that can only be dispensed to a few hundred people a day, while Florida had over 20,000 new cases. He's both fiscally irresponsible and bad at math.
Posted the wrong thread lo siento. And it wasn't $20 million directly to DeSantis, quit telling half truths.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 18, 2021, 10:17:32 PM
Wow, he donated 0 to Biden. And over $10m to DeSantis. Thanks for pointing out that huge disparity.
Meanwhile Desantis again today downplayed the $20 vaccines and touted the $1000 treatment that can only be dispensed to a few hundred people a day, while Florida had over 20,000 new cases. He's both fiscally irresponsible and bad at math.
And what about the fact that the federal government bought every single available dose a long time ago. So it doesn't make a lick of difference if Florida uses it or not. You financial wizard.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 18, 2021, 09:55:26 PM
Come on Olberman, all those years in the media and you don't have a source for this?
End of the day it doesn't matter if $0 or $1 billion dollars was donated to a political leader. Regeneron has been getting pushed from all angles and will save lives. Death Santis is following the science on this one folks.
Come on, Tucker. He gave $0.00 to Biden. But nice try!
Quote from: MU82 on August 18, 2021, 10:28:55 PM
Come on, Tucker. He gave $0.00 to Biden. But nice try!
Not only do you lack originality but you also can't read. Maybe lack of fresh air, have you been outside lately?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 14, 2021, 07:33:55 AM
Well whatever source was used that is making a man who got Covid naturally and is also double vaccinated wear a mask 24-7 aside from eating and sleeping should be lit on fire.
What you're failing to acknowledge here is the segment of the population that is neither vaccinated nor wearing a mask cannot be trusted to do the right thing, and they're proving it quickly. So in lieu of trying to police who is vaccinated and who isn't, we are going back to mask mandates because of the callous actions of adults who are filling hospital beds at an alarming rate.
Is it right for the vaccinated/mask wearing people to bear the burden of full hospitals due to the unvaccinated fools? Of course not. And since we won't police vaccination status, we have to police mask mandates.
That's the thing. We can say stuff like, 'the unvaccinated made their decision and they understand the consequences'... but in the end we all pay for their choice. With full hospitals, delayed medical procedures, etc. So now, the responsible public will go along with the mandates in the hope that this minor sacrifice will save lives and blunt the spread again... just so we can repeat this process for the next several months.
Also, I keep hearing that you want this administration to 'do more with messaging' or something to that effect. How? Explain to me how you expect the Federal Government to convince the unvaccinated dipsh!ts of this country to stop being stubborn, ignorant, selfish little brats. Present your ideas. Please. I'd love to hear them. But you and I both know that for a lot of Americans there is absolutely no way to convince them to get vaccinated at this point in time. They've dug in their heels and joined the culture war on the side of stupidity.
And the rest of us have to suffer for it.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 19, 2021, 08:22:28 AM
Also, I keep hearing that you want this administration to 'do more with messaging' or something to that effect. How? Explain to me how you expect the Federal Government to convince the unvaccinated dipsh!ts of this country to stop being stubborn, ignorant, selfish little brats. Present your ideas. Please. I'd love to hear them. But you and I both know that for a lot of Americans there is absolutely no way to convince them to get vaccinated at this point in time. They've dug in their heels and joined the culture war on the side of stupidity.
And the rest of us have to suffer for it.
Especially when vaccine resistance is so often wedded to anti-government and anti-science sentiment, or a political ideology that's hostile to the current administration and health officials.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 19, 2021, 08:57:15 AM
Especially when vaccine resistance is so often wedded to anti-government and anti-science sentiment, or a political ideology that's hostile to the current administration and health officials.
I find it amazing that the kids I knew from high school who sat in science class and looked over my shoulder for answers to the tests are somehow the epidemiology experts now that they've been tacking drywall for 20 years.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 19, 2021, 08:57:15 AM
Especially when vaccine resistance is so often wedded to anti-government and anti-science sentiment, or a political ideology that's hostile to the current administration and health officials.
But they have their freedom! Just like this guy:
West Palm Beach police officer dies of complications from COVID-19;
Officer Robert Williams died Monday after experiencing complications from the virus, the police department said in a statement posted to its social media pages. He was 47. Williams is survived by his wife and sons.
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/08/17/west-palm-beach-police-officer-dies-complications-covid-19/8163650002/
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 19, 2021, 12:06:29 PM
But they have their freedom! Just like this guy:
West Palm Beach police officer dies of complications from COVID-19;
Officer Robert Williams died Monday after experiencing complications from the virus, the police department said in a statement posted to its social media pages. He was 47. Williams is survived by his wife and sons.
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/08/17/west-palm-beach-police-officer-dies-complications-covid-19/8163650002/
Very sad, and probably very avoidable.
All it takes is a few unvaxxed employee deaths for employers to realize it's bad for business to have unvaccinated employees...
https://www.adn.com/business-economy/2021/08/18/three-alaska-airlines-employees-die-of-covid-in-a-month-as-leadership-moves-toward-vaccination-mandate/
Connecticut governor made vaccines mandatory for state workers and just added mandatory for all teachers this afternoon.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 19, 2021, 08:22:28 AM
What you're failing to acknowledge here is the segment of the population that is neither vaccinated nor wearing a mask cannot be trusted to do the right thing, and they're proving it quickly. So in lieu of trying to police who is vaccinated and who isn't, we are going back to mask mandates because of the callous actions of adults who are filling hospital beds at an alarming rate.
Is it right for the vaccinated/mask wearing people to bear the burden of full hospitals due to the unvaccinated fools? Of course not. And since we won't police vaccination status, we have to police mask mandates.
That's the thing. We can say stuff like, 'the unvaccinated made their decision and they understand the consequences'... but in the end we all pay for their choice. With full hospitals, delayed medical procedures, etc. So now, the responsible public will go along with the mandates in the hope that this minor sacrifice will save lives and blunt the spread again... just so we can repeat this process for the next several months.
Also, I keep hearing that you want this administration to 'do more with messaging' or something to that effect. How? Explain to me how you expect the Federal Government to convince the unvaccinated dipsh!ts of this country to stop being stubborn, ignorant, selfish little brats. Present your ideas. Please. I'd love to hear them. But you and I both know that for a lot of Americans there is absolutely no way to convince them to get vaccinated at this point in time. They've dug in their heels and joined the culture war on the side of stupidity.
And the rest of us have to suffer for it.
1) I would take the exact opposite approach/tone then what he has been taking and you decided to take with this post. Instead of picking fights and calling names I would try to combat hesitancy with a little understanding and grace as to where/why the hesitation is coming from. God forbid point out the good things Republican elected leaders are doing once or twice and be the unifier he promised to be during the campaign. You catch more bees with honey.
2) Thank you for finally acknowledging/understanding that there is very little the federal gov't can do. It's been what I've been saying from day 1. This is ultimately a state/local issue and even more so an individual responsibility to make your own decision to get the poke or not. To wear a mask or not. To social distance or not. There is not much and nor should there be for elected officials to do.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 19, 2021, 09:31:15 PM
1) I would take the exact opposite approach/tone then what he has been taking and you decided to take with this post. Instead of picking fights and calling names I would try to combat hesitancy with a little understanding and grace as to where/why the hesitation is coming from. God forbid point out the good things Republican elected leaders are doing once or twice and be the unifier he promised to be during the campaign. You catch more bees with honey.
2) Thank you for finally acknowledging/understanding that there is very little the federal gov't can do. It's been what I've been saying from day 1. This is ultimately a state/local issue and even more so an individual responsibility to make your own decision to get the poke or not. To wear a mask or not. To social distance or not. There is not much and nor should there be for elected officials to do.
1. You'd fail. We've coddled these morons for well over a year and a half. They're petulant children who thrive on this exact type of behavior. You saw it play out in front of the Library of Congress yesterday. They do their own 'research' and shout down anyone who doesn't arrive at the same conclusion. They have ZERO interest in your compassion, understanding, or grace. Stop putting so much faith in the hands of your fellow man to make the right decision. They've proven repeatedly that they cannot.
2. That isn't what I said at all. There was and is a lot that the Federal Government should have and can still do. My point is that you can't fix these stupid people. And we shouldn't keep trying. The hogs were fed their slop in 2020 from social media, the President and his ilk, and they ate it up. They can't stand being the objective LOSERS they are so they want everyone else to play in the mud with them. Frankly, I'm sick of doing that.
This virus isn't a 'personal decision' thing. Frankly, if you don't want to wear your seat belt in your car, that is your decision, and it doesn't affect me (really, it does, but that is another discussion entirely). But when you jump behind the wheel of a car while drunk, you're not just putting yourself at risk; you are putting everyone else on the road at risk with your decision. You're advocating for seat belt choice to protect people while millions of drunk drivers are zipping around your neighborhood. You understand the folly in this, don't you?
We've tried all of the god damn carrots in the field, and it is well beyond time these dopes get the stick. Mask Mandates are back? YUP. You're job is going to require a vaccination? YUP. Can't go to restaurants and bars and events without vaccines? YUP. Too bad. So sad. We went their way for the last six months and here we are back at the start of another wave just in time for school to kick off. Oh, and this time the variant is making kids more sick at a much higher rate.
Mandate the vaccine for everyone, it's the only chance we have out of this situation. We did it for small pox so there is certainly precedent. Again, to hammer home my point:
Stop putting so much faith in the hands of your fellow man to make the right decision.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 20, 2021, 06:27:31 AM
1. You'd fail. We've coddled these morons for well over a year and a half. They're petulant children who thrive on this exact type of behavior. You saw it play out in front of the Library of Congress yesterday. They do their own 'research' and shout down anyone who doesn't arrive at the same conclusion. They have ZERO interest in your compassion, understanding, or grace. Stop putting so much faith in the hands of your fellow man to make the right decision. They've proven repeatedly that they cannot.
2. That isn't what I said at all. There was and is a lot that the Federal Government should have and can still do. My point is that you can't fix these stupid people. And we shouldn't keep trying. The hogs were fed their slop in 2020 from social media, the President and his ilk, and they ate it up. They can't stand being the objective LOSERS they are so they want everyone else to play in the mud with them. Frankly, I'm sick of doing that.
This virus isn't a 'personal decision' thing. Frankly, if you don't want to wear your seat belt in your car, that is your decision, and it doesn't affect me (really, it does, but that is another discussion entirely). But when you jump behind the wheel of a car while drunk, you're not just putting yourself at risk; you are putting everyone else on the road at risk with your decision. You're advocating for seat belt choice to protect people while millions of drunk drivers are zipping around your neighborhood. You understand the folly in this, don't you?
We've tried all of the god damn carrots in the field, and it is well beyond time these dopes get the stick. Mask Mandates are back? YUP. You're job is going to require a vaccination? YUP. Can't go to restaurants and bars and events without vaccines? YUP. Too bad. So sad. We went their way for the last six months and here we are back at the start of another wave just in time for school to kick off. Oh, and this time the variant is making kids more sick at a much higher rate.
Mandate the vaccine for everyone, it's the only chance we have out of this situation. We did it for small pox so there is certainly precedent. Again, to hammer home my point:
Stop putting so much faith in the hands of your fellow man to make the right decision.
8-)
Washington State football coach Nick Rolovich had been a staunch anti-vaxxer. But after Gov. Jay Inslee announced that all employees working in educational roles must be fully vaccinated as a condition of employment, Rolovich relented.
"I plan on following (Inslee's) mandate," Rolovich told reporters after practice Thursday in Pullman. "For sure."
Good. Mandates work. As Hards said, a carrot only goes so far. Time for the stick.
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/227582344_10159181682983145_3601053679455153291_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=YWQRqDZiHf0AX-V72CG&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=a331b1f359d8f6eacfa4dca17da63d3d&oe=61457943)
https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/status/1428841380126855172?s=21
MSDH: "At least 70% of the recent calls (to poison control) have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers."
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 20, 2021, 06:47:05 PM
https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/status/1428841380126855172?s=21
MSDH: "At least 70% of the recent calls (to poison control) have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers."
People are dumb
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on August 20, 2021, 07:11:22 PM
People are dumb
Wait a minute, I was told to approach these folks with grace and understanding.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on August 20, 2021, 07:11:22 PM
People are dumb
Let's be more specific. A certain subset of people are dumb. Really dumb.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on August 20, 2021, 09:29:53 PM
Wait a minute, I was told to approach these folks with grace and understanding.
Whoever told you that was dumb
Quote from: Jockey on August 20, 2021, 11:31:04 PM
Let's be more specific. A certain subset of people are dumb. Really dumb.
I think a whole lot of people are dumb, but I guess I can agree that within that group, some people are dumber than others.
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 20, 2021, 06:47:05 PM
https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/status/1428841380126855172?s=21
MSDH: "At least 70% of the recent calls (to poison control) have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers."
Yes, but they are poisoning themselves for only $3.00/dose, so it is totally a good deal. Or so I have been told.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b0/6f/kEBPtQaT_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/kEBPtQaT)
Well, guys, I found it: The single worst take on vaccinations yet to be published.
Enjoy!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/paul-klee-showing-vaccination-papers-035400738.html
The people we should treat with patience, grace and understanding:
Man threatens Springfield Walmart workers, tells them they will be executed for administering vaccines
Andrew Sullender
Springfield News-Leader
Livestreaming on Facebook, a man known online as the "vaccine police" harassed pharmacists at a Walmart in Springfield — saying the workers would be "executed" for administering the COVID-19 vaccine.
Invited from Alabama to last week's Mercy hospital rally, Christopher Key is an entrepreneur who came to prominence after convincing Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis to use his "deer antler spray" to treat his injury.
In recent months, Key has been speaking out against the COVID-19 vaccine. And since the Saturday rally, he has been in Springfield.
Monday evening, Key and his "Missouri crew" entered the Walmart Supercenter west of Springfield on Sunshine Street. Making a beeline to their pharmacy, Key yelled that he was putting the store's workers "on notice."
By the time Key and his group of about a half dozen reached the pharmacy, staff had locked the door, closed the window, and were hiding in the room.
"You are being put on notice!" he shouted outside the door. "And if they give one more vaccine, as of this day after being put on notice, then they can be hung up. And they can be executed."
https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/18/man-tells-springfield-walmart-pharmacy-they-executed-vaccinations-christopher-key/8160309002/
The best part of the article?
They prayed in the parking lot before going in to tell the pharmacist that he was going to be murdered.
They haven't just corrupted politics and medicine. They are working to destroy religion. Can anyone tell me the difference between American Christians and Taliban Muslims?
Quote from: Jockey on August 22, 2021, 07:13:53 PM
They haven't just corrupted politics and medicine. They are working to destroy religion. Can anyone tell me the difference between American Christians and Taliban Muslims?
Awesome job trying to make a dumb analogy by comparing a group of 200 million Christians to a militant sect of 50-100K radical Muslims.
Anyone think it's f'ed up that we're going to be getting booster shots before other countries even get a 1st shot? And that the only reason we need boosters - Delta variant - is around because other countries can't get access to the vaccine?
I *heart* the pharmaceutical industry (and pols without a backbone)
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 22, 2021, 08:53:44 PM
Anyone think it's f'ed up that we're going to be getting booster shots before other countries even get a 1st shot? And that the only reason we need boosters - Delta variant - is around because other countries can't get access to the vaccine?
I *heart* the pharmaceutical industry (and pols without a backbone)
I'm really torn on this one for a number of reasons, beyond simply the aspects you list above.
A good friend who is an emergency pediatrician in one of the areas super hard-hit by all this, is very outspoken against getting boosters, both for the morality aspect, but also based on the data guiding the decision to roll out boosters now.
Frankly, there is a lot of data I'd like to see, but haven't regarding the efficacy of the boosters and a long-term plan to continue to prevent adverse outcomes.
@drbobe57
Our meta-analysis of survival for ivermectin had to be retracted after one of the main studies was suspected of medical fraud. With the revised version, there is no statistically significant survival benefit for ivermectin. So the original version should not be quoted.
https://twitter.com/DrAndrewHill/status/1427637882773196826?s=19
Quote from: pbiflyer on August 23, 2021, 08:04:40 AM
@drbobe57
Our meta-analysis of survival for ivermectin had to be retracted after one of the main studies was suspected of medical fraud. With the revised version, there is no statistically significant survival benefit for ivermectin. So the original version should not be quoted.
https://twitter.com/DrAndrewHill/status/1427637882773196826?s=19
Have they talked to dentists who follow Qanon?
@Sarah_Boxer: Unvaccinated people cost US health system $2.3 billion in hospitalizations in June and July alone, analysis shows. Kaiser Family Foundation notes the # is likely an *understatement.* https://cnn.it/3kkgLoG via @CNN
The Pfizer booster shot boosts protection against infection by five to six times, after 10 days.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-finds-covid-19-vaccine-booster-significantly-lowers-infection-risk-2021-08-22/
Full FDA approval for Pfizer.
Great news: Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine is granted full approval by the FDA.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine
This will help businesses, school districts and other groups more easily justify mandates, as one of the lame defenses was, "They shouldn't be able to force us to take an experimental drug."
So now it's no longer experimental. And nobody was "forcing" anybody to do anything -- it was still a choice:
People have a choice to get vaccinated or not; if they choose not to, they are free to find another ____ (fill in the blank: employer, mode of travel, entertainment venue, university, etc).
Mandates are coming.
Lawsuits will follow.
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 23, 2021, 09:25:26 AM
Mandates are coming.
Lawsuits will follow.
Maybe lawsuits against governmental bodies mandating vaccines, though would it be any easier to win a suit against a mandate for a fully-approved COVID vaccine than mandates for the measles vaccine?
And I don't see how a private business could be sued successfully for mandating vaccines.
Of course, you said nothing about success, only that lawsuits will follow. And this being America, you're probably right.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on August 23, 2021, 09:05:28 AM
Full FDA approval for Pfizer.
I hope that has at least some positive impact on changing the minds of the vaccine hesitant folks. Even a 1% impact is a start.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 22, 2021, 07:43:34 PM
Awesome job trying to make a dumb analogy by comparing a group of 200 million Christians to a militant sect of 50-100K radical Muslims.
I'd say he was grouping closer to 90-100million (estimate of evangelical Christians) not the entirety of Christian America
Quote from: MU82 on August 23, 2021, 09:33:37 AM
Maybe lawsuits against governmental bodies mandating vaccines, though would it be any easier to win a suit against a mandate for a fully-approved COVID vaccine than mandates for the measles vaccine?
And I don't see how a private business could be sued successfully for mandating vaccines.
Of course, you said nothing about success, only that lawsuits will follow. And this being America, you're probably right.
Remind me. Haven't there already been a couple of failed lawsuits filed by some healthcare workers who were about to lose their jobs?
I think I agree with the notion that it'll never be 'mandatory' on a national level but that individual businesses will be able to require it as a condition of employment or attendance/participation.
Quote from: jsglow on August 23, 2021, 10:37:54 AM
Remind me. Haven't there already been a couple of failed lawsuits filed by some healthcare workers who were about to lose their jobs?
I think I agree with the notion that it'll never be 'mandatory' on a national level but that individual businesses will be able to require it as a condition of employment or attendance/participation.
I don't believe I've read about a successful suit, but I'm not a lawyer and I don't track these things.
Quote from: jsglow on August 23, 2021, 10:37:54 AM
I think I agree with the notion that it'll never be 'mandatory' on a national level but that individual businesses will be able to require it as a condition of employment or attendance/participation.
Right, just as with many other vaccines. And there will be some very narrow exceptions for medical conditions and religious beliefs.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on August 23, 2021, 09:56:52 AM
I'd say he was grouping closer to 90-100million (estimate of evangelical Christians) not the entirety of Christian America
Even still. Comparing that group off the actions of a few to someone like the Taliban is as stupid as comparing any mask mandates to Nazi Germany.
Quote from: JWags85 on August 23, 2021, 10:56:48 AM
Even still. Comparing that group off the actions of a few to someone like the Taliban is as stupid as comparing any mask mandates to Nazi Germany.
I generally agree with your point. Jockey paints with far too broad a brush. That said, it's more than "a few" on the Christian right whose views trend toward the theocratic, and more than a few who see political violence as a potential necessity.
And nothing is as dumb as comparing mask mandates to Nazi Germany.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on August 23, 2021, 09:56:52 AM
I'd say he was grouping closer to 90-100million (estimate of evangelical Christians) not the entirety of Christian America
They have only been referred to as the
American Taliban since we've know who the Taliban are.
Quote from: TSmith34 on August 23, 2021, 09:54:41 AM
I hope that has at least some positive impact on changing the minds of the vaccine hesitant folks. Even a 1% impact is a start.
Doubt it.
Prepare for goalposts to be moved again.
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 23, 2021, 11:27:03 AM
Doubt it.
Prepare for goalposts to be moved again.
Faux News is already asking if it got approved too quickly
It's incredible to me Trump was booed when urging people to get vaccinated.
Quote from: cheebs09 on August 23, 2021, 11:55:15 AM
It's incredible to me Trump was booed when urging people to get vaccinated.
That moment when Georges Danton realized that the Terror he'd helped to create had slipped from his ability to control.
Yikes
@TizzyEnt: Told you...
I've uncovered evidence of a scam allowing the unvaccinated to appear vaccinated, but how many? https://twitter.com/TizzyEnt/status/1430658074377924618/video/1
Quote from: Pakuni on August 25, 2021, 10:08:04 PM
Yikes
@TizzyEnt: Told you...
I've uncovered evidence of a scam allowing the unvaccinated to appear vaccinated, but how many? https://twitter.com/TizzyEnt/status/1430658074377924618/video/1
I wonder if anyone told her the fine and jail time associated with these actions. And we're not talking happy fun time prison....
The Panthers on Wednesday traded LB Denzel Perryman -- an anti-vaxxer -- to the Raiders.
He had been injured off and on during training camp and the Panthers realized quickly that he wouldn't help them after having signed him during the offseason. They wouldn't say whether his anti-vax stance contributed at all to the move, but he was one of the few players on the roster to have not been vaccinated.
Interestingly, the Raiders acquired him even though they have been very proactive with vaccination protocols and were the first NFL team to announce that fans would have to show proof of vaccinations to attend games.
Why are evangelical Christians so vaccine hesitant? Politics + "God's will" = lots of death.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-some-white-evangelical-republicans-are-so-opposed-to-the-covid-19-vaccine/?ex_cid=538twitter
After thoroughly viewing at all the evidence from Israel and elsewhere re potential booster shots, here's what the NYT's David Leonhardt had to say (bolded headings were his):
Here's my best attempt to give you an objective summary of the evidence, free from alarmism — and acknowledging uncertainty:
Immunity does probably wane modestly within the first year of receiving a shot. For this reason, booster shots make sense for vulnerable people, many experts believe. As Dr. Céline Gounder of Bellevue Hospital Center told my colleague Apoorva Mandavilli, the C.D.C.'s data "support giving additional doses of vaccine to highly immunocompromised persons and nursing home residents, not to the general public."
The current booster shots may do little good for most people. The vaccines continue to provide excellent protection against illness (as opposed to merely a positive Covid test). People will eventually need boosters, but it may make more sense to wait for one specifically designed to combat a variant. "We don't know whether a non-Delta booster would improve protection against Delta," Dr. Aaron Richterman of the University of Pennsylvania told me.
A national policy of frequent booster shots has significant costs, financially and otherwise. Among other things, the exaggerated discussion of waning immunity contributes to vaccine skepticism.
While Americans are focusing on booster shots, other policies may do much more to beat back Covid, including more vaccine mandates in the U.S.; a more rapid push to vaccinate the world (and prevent other variants from taking root); and an accelerated F.D.A. study of vaccines for children.
As always, we should be open to changing our minds as we get new evidence. As Richterman puts it, "We have time to gather the appropriate evidence before rushing into boosters."
https://www.heritage.org/public-health/report/statistical-analysis-covid-19-breakthrough-infections-and-deaths?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=thf-tw
Once you're vaccinated this thing is over. Similar odds to dying from Covid as you would have of dying by lightning strike per the data.
Get poked, live your life.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 30, 2021, 09:45:05 AM
https://www.heritage.org/public-health/report/statistical-analysis-covid-19-breakthrough-infections-and-deaths?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=thf-tw
Once you're vaccinated this thing is over. Similar odds to dying from Covid as you would have of dying by lightning strike per the data.
Get poked, live your life.
Dying, why is everyone only concerned about dying? Personally I'm concerned about the likelihood of myocarditis if I get even a mild case after vaccination. I'm still going out and what not, but why is it so black and white for you?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on August 30, 2021, 09:48:44 AM
Dying, why is everyone only concerned about dying? Personally I'm concerned about the likelihood of myocarditis if I get even a mild case after vaccination. I'm still going out and what not, but why is it so black and white for you?
You can get myocarditis from any viral infection? You could get it from the Covid vaccine?
I guess I don't understand your point. My post was to suggest that if vaccinated you can drop the mask and sleep easy. A lot of doom and gloom still being reported directed at those who are even vaccinated which is counterproductive imo.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 30, 2021, 11:23:26 AM
You can get myocarditis from any viral infection? You could get it from the Covid vaccine?
I guess I don't understand your point. My post was to suggest that if vaccinated you can drop the mask and sleep easy. A lot of doom and gloom still being reported directed at those who are even vaccinated which is counterproductive imo.
Myocarditis from the vaccine? Source?
Quote from: jesmu84 on August 30, 2021, 11:53:02 AM
Myocarditis from the vaccine? Source?
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782900
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 30, 2021, 01:10:29 PM
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782900
Huh. Thanks. Very interesting
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 30, 2021, 01:10:29 PM
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782900
At a MUCH lower rate than getting Covid. The broader point I was making is after hearing another poster's story of having a bad case of Covid despite vaccinated, after seeing my sister's case of it despite being vaccinated everything's a calculated risk, not necessarily "back to normal" if a person doesn't feel comfortable. And a major part of that calculated risk should be taking into account more than just death as there's plenty of other long term issues.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on August 30, 2021, 03:45:18 PM
At a MUCH lower rate than getting Covid. The broader point I was making is after hearing another poster's story of having a bad case of Covid despite vaccinated, after seeing my sister's case of it despite being vaccinated everything's a calculated risk, not necessarily "back to normal" if a person doesn't feel comfortable. And a major part of that calculated risk should be taking into account more than just death as there's plenty of other long term issues.
Sure. But here is my issue, not necessarily pointing the finger at you, but people are back to portraying risk the same as this time last year. They anchor on the small amount of breakthrough cases within the vaccinated population, and say "you can still get COVID when vaccinated and get all the negative non-death issues" and suddenly is fear and risk everywhere.
If we have substantial amounts of people with F-up senses of taste or smell or major lung issues as a result of contracting COVID while vaccinated, ok eyebrows raised. But Myocarditis from a minor case of COVID can easily also occur from a case of the flu, cold, or nasty bout of allergies. All things you naturally attempt to avoid, but isn't something you cautiously live your life around.
And with all due respect to your sister and the other poster, focusing on these isolated statistically unlikely cases as flawed as those fearing vaccinations cause of the random person they know that supposedly died from the vaccine or their neighbor who got super sick from it. Even though one side then defaults to an excess of caution and the other uses it as an excuse for recklessness, they both are using the statistics and science incorrectly
A fantastic Twitter thread about vaccines and American freedoms:
@michaelharriot
When anti-vaxxers cite their freedoms, constitutional rights, and–the whitest thing of all–the Founding Fathers to rail against vaccine mandates, do they know what they're talking about?
What if I told you this happens EXACTLY every 100 years?
[In 1706, the members of a Boston church gave the pastor Cotton Mather a gift bag with a very special present--an enslaved Black man named Onesimus.
( That's how they collected tithes and offerings, but times were very different back then)
But Mather couldn't STAND Onesimus.
Some of it was because Onesimus laughed his ass off when Mather tried to convince him that God was white. Mather said Onesimus was "wicked" because he was too smart. Plus, Onesimus tried to tell Mather something that was unbelievable.
In Africa, they had cured smallpox.
Smallpox was a deadly, contagious disease. When it came to the US, they blamed the pandemic on immigrants who came here on ships. Then...
You know what?
There's no way anyone living today would understand this part.
Anyway, Mather didn't believe Onesimus' BS.
But he told his pharmacist friend about it, and they decided to try it. So Mather & his doctor friend inoculated 248 of their friends and family.
When white people heard this, they lost their minds. One Boston newspaper stayed impartial. But the publisher and his little brother secretly printed pamphlets that said the slaves were trying to kill the white people by injecting them with smallpox.
It sparked the first anti-vaxxer movement. They even firebombed Mather's house with a note that said "I will inoculate you with this."
Then, in 1721, 5,889 people in Boston – about 1/2 the town– caught smallpox & 1 out of every 7 died.
Only 6 of the 248 people inoculated by Onesimus' recipe died—or one in 40.
Massachusetts quickly became the first state to promote public vaccination.
The next year, another smallpox epidemic hit. Less than 3% even caught it. It worked.
But that publisher's little brother, who was printing those anti-vaxx pamphlets, he was too embarrassed to get his kids vaccinated and his son died.
He regretted it so much that he moved to Philadelphia, opened America's first hospital.
I'm not saying this guy was more intelligent than you, but when you talk about your "freedoms" & what the Founders stood for, you should know that this guy was kinda like a Founding Father. His nickname was "The first American"
But most people just call him Ben Franklin.
Ben was all for vaccine mandates, but a lot of people weren't. States banned vaccines, & people rioted in Virginia in 1769. One Virginian wasn't worried because he had already gone to Philadelphia to get vaccinated.
Ben even helped him edit this breakup letter he wrote.
It was called the Declaration of Independence.
In his 2nd term as president, he began mandating vaccines.
Literally 100 years after someone put a human being in the offering plate, Jefferson wrote a doctor concerning vaccines calling it the greatest discovery in medical history.
A few years later, Jefferson's homeboy created the National Vaccine Agency. If you believe in the Founders, you should know the guy who created the Agency was some dude named James Madison, who also wrote this thing called the Constitution of the United States of America.
One last bit of proof:
During the Revolutionary War, smallpox ravaged British and American troops. So George Washington came up with an idea on how he could gain an advantage.
Yep, a VACCINE MANDATE literally helped a ragtag group of soldiers create this thing called America
There's more, which you can read here:
https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1432064300953346048
Stoopid George Washington canceled FREEDOM!
Quote from: Pakuni on August 30, 2021, 04:52:39 PM
A fantastic Twitter thread about vaccines and American freedoms:
@michaelharriot
When anti-vaxxers cite their freedoms, constitutional rights, and–the whitest thing of all–the Founding Fathers to rail against vaccine mandates, do they know what they're talking about?
What if I told you this happens EXACTLY every 100 years?
[In 1706, the members of a Boston church gave the pastor Cotton Mather a gift bag with a very special present--an enslaved Black man named Onesimus.
( That's how they collected tithes and offerings, but times were very different back then)
But Mather couldn't STAND Onesimus.
Some of it was because Onesimus laughed his ass off when Mather tried to convince him that God was white. Mather said Onesimus was "wicked" because he was too smart. Plus, Onesimus tried to tell Mather something that was unbelievable.
In Africa, they had cured smallpox.
Smallpox was a deadly, contagious disease. When it came to the US, they blamed the pandemic on immigrants who came here on ships. Then...
You know what?
There's no way anyone living today would understand this part.
Anyway, Mather didn't believe Onesimus' BS.
But he told his pharmacist friend about it, and they decided to try it. So Mather & his doctor friend inoculated 248 of their friends and family.
When white people heard this, they lost their minds. One Boston newspaper stayed impartial. But the publisher and his little brother secretly printed pamphlets that said the slaves were trying to kill the white people by injecting them with smallpox.
It sparked the first anti-vaxxer movement. They even firebombed Mather's house with a note that said "I will inoculate you with this."
Then, in 1721, 5,889 people in Boston – about 1/2 the town– caught smallpox & 1 out of every 7 died.
Only 6 of the 248 people inoculated by Onesimus' recipe died—or one in 40.
Massachusetts quickly became the first state to promote public vaccination.
The next year, another smallpox epidemic hit. Less than 3% even caught it. It worked.
But that publisher's little brother, who was printing those anti-vaxx pamphlets, he was too embarrassed to get his kids vaccinated and his son died.
He regretted it so much that he moved to Philadelphia, opened America's first hospital.
I'm not saying this guy was more intelligent than you, but when you talk about your "freedoms" & what the Founders stood for, you should know that this guy was kinda like a Founding Father. His nickname was "The first American"
But most people just call him Ben Franklin.
Ben was all for vaccine mandates, but a lot of people weren't. States banned vaccines, & people rioted in Virginia in 1769. One Virginian wasn't worried because he had already gone to Philadelphia to get vaccinated.
Ben even helped him edit this breakup letter he wrote.
It was called the Declaration of Independence.
In his 2nd term as president, he began mandating vaccines.
Literally 100 years after someone put a human being in the offering plate, Jefferson wrote a doctor concerning vaccines calling it the greatest discovery in medical history.
A few years later, Jefferson's homeboy created the National Vaccine Agency. If you believe in the Founders, you should know the guy who created the Agency was some dude named James Madison, who also wrote this thing called the Constitution of the United States of America.
One last bit of proof:
During the Revolutionary War, smallpox ravaged British and American troops. So George Washington came up with an idea on how he could gain an advantage.
Yep, a VACCINE MANDATE literally helped a ragtag group of soldiers create this thing called America
There's more, which you can read here:
https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1432064300953346048
History repeats itself because despite all our advances as humans, we're still pretty stupid and too many times tribal
Quote from: Pakuni on August 30, 2021, 04:52:39 PM
A fantastic Twitter thread about vaccines and American freedoms:
@michaelharriot
When anti-vaxxers cite their freedoms, constitutional rights, and–the whitest thing of all–the Founding Fathers to rail against vaccine mandates, do they know what they're talking about?
What if I told you this happens EXACTLY every 100 years?
[In 1706, the members of a Boston church gave the pastor Cotton Mather a gift bag with a very special present--an enslaved Black man named Onesimus.
( That's how they collected tithes and offerings, but times were very different back then)
But Mather couldn't STAND Onesimus.
Some of it was because Onesimus laughed his ass off when Mather tried to convince him that God was white. Mather said Onesimus was "wicked" because he was too smart. Plus, Onesimus tried to tell Mather something that was unbelievable.
In Africa, they had cured smallpox.
Smallpox was a deadly, contagious disease. When it came to the US, they blamed the pandemic on immigrants who came here on ships. Then...
You know what?
There's no way anyone living today would understand this part.
Anyway, Mather didn't believe Onesimus' BS.
But he told his pharmacist friend about it, and they decided to try it. So Mather & his doctor friend inoculated 248 of their friends and family.
When white people heard this, they lost their minds. One Boston newspaper stayed impartial. But the publisher and his little brother secretly printed pamphlets that said the slaves were trying to kill the white people by injecting them with smallpox.
It sparked the first anti-vaxxer movement. They even firebombed Mather's house with a note that said "I will inoculate you with this."
Then, in 1721, 5,889 people in Boston – about 1/2 the town– caught smallpox & 1 out of every 7 died.
Only 6 of the 248 people inoculated by Onesimus' recipe died—or one in 40.
Massachusetts quickly became the first state to promote public vaccination.
The next year, another smallpox epidemic hit. Less than 3% even caught it. It worked.
But that publisher's little brother, who was printing those anti-vaxx pamphlets, he was too embarrassed to get his kids vaccinated and his son died.
He regretted it so much that he moved to Philadelphia, opened America's first hospital.
I'm not saying this guy was more intelligent than you, but when you talk about your "freedoms" & what the Founders stood for, you should know that this guy was kinda like a Founding Father. His nickname was "The first American"
But most people just call him Ben Franklin.
Ben was all for vaccine mandates, but a lot of people weren't. States banned vaccines, & people rioted in Virginia in 1769. One Virginian wasn't worried because he had already gone to Philadelphia to get vaccinated.
Ben even helped him edit this breakup letter he wrote.
It was called the Declaration of Independence.
In his 2nd term as president, he began mandating vaccines.
Literally 100 years after someone put a human being in the offering plate, Jefferson wrote a doctor concerning vaccines calling it the greatest discovery in medical history.
A few years later, Jefferson's homeboy created the National Vaccine Agency. If you believe in the Founders, you should know the guy who created the Agency was some dude named James Madison, who also wrote this thing called the Constitution of the United States of America.
One last bit of proof:
During the Revolutionary War, smallpox ravaged British and American troops. So George Washington came up with an idea on how he could gain an advantage.
Yep, a VACCINE MANDATE literally helped a ragtag group of soldiers create this thing called America
There's more, which you can read here:
https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1432064300953346048
Cute story. If Covid was killing 1 out of 7 Americans no matter the age pretty sure there would be more support for a vaccine mandate.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 30, 2021, 08:23:37 PM
Cute story. If Covid was killing 1 out of 7 Americans no matter the age pretty sure there would be more support for a vaccine mandate.
There wouldn't be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9SMUzj-_4Q
Quote from: Uncle Rico on August 30, 2021, 08:34:31 PM
There wouldn't be
Hard to say for sure I guess. I imagine one day there will be a new virus with that kind of IFR and we'll find out.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 30, 2021, 08:47:21 PM
Hard to say for sure I guess. I imagine one day there will be a new virus with that kind of IFR and we'll find out.
No, it isn't hard to say at all. History always repeats itself
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on August 30, 2021, 08:23:37 PM
Cute story. If Covid was killing 1 out of 7 Americans no matter the age pretty sure there would be more support for a vaccine mandate.
In one thread today, you were critical of a teachers union for not mandating vaccines.
In another thread (this one), you scoff at vaccine mandates (apparently because COVID isn't killing enough* people).
But you're totally not a troll.
*Which begs the question, what's the acceptable number of easily preventable deaths in Pace's world?
Quote from: Pakuni on August 30, 2021, 08:52:07 PM
In one thread today, you were critical of a teachers union for not mandating vaccines.
In another thread (this one), you scoff at vaccine mandates (apparently because COVID isn't killing enough* people).
But you're totally not a troll.
*Which begs the question, what's the acceptable number of easily preventable deaths in Pace's world?
You're misstating what I said in the other thread. I asked you based off your post if you were upset with the lack of a vaccine mandate in place at that school for the teachers or that the masks on the kids didn't work.
I've clearly stated my thoughts on vaccine mandates. A private business has every right to do it but I don't believe it should be mandated by state or federal gov't.
And i was just simply pointing out if Covid had a higher IFR I'd imagine the vaccine would be more widely accepted. But when 99.95% of people under 50 survive it just doesn't seem to be too urgent for a lot of people. I believe it's selfish of them but I can at least understand where they're coming from.
https://mobile.twitter.com/davidzweig/status/1432711348903989251
https://mobile.twitter.com/HeidiBriones/status/1432732608102690816
But no mean tweets!!!
Quote from: Pakuni on August 25, 2021, 10:08:04 PM
Yikes
@TizzyEnt: Told you...
I've uncovered evidence of a scam allowing the unvaccinated to appear vaccinated, but how many? https://twitter.com/TizzyEnt/status/1430658074377924618/video/1
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1433046828577181711?s=19
Rekt.
I wonder what these counties have in common? ?-(
The five Florida counties with the lowest percentage of fully vaccinated residents are:
Holmes County (23%)
Washington County (25%)
Calhoun County (26%)
Union County (26%)
Dixie County (26%)
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/09/01/covid-19-florida-vaccinations-rising-amid-delta-variant-outbreak/5679887001
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on September 01, 2021, 08:19:49 AM
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1433046828577181711?s=19
Rekt.
People always trying to make a buck. No different than China selling millions of fake N95 masks, which could have caused thousands more infections and deaths on a much greater scale than a few suckers who bought fake vaccination cards.
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 01, 2021, 12:15:56 PM
People always trying to make a buck. No different than China selling millions of fake N95 masks, which could have caused thousands more infections and deaths on a much greater scale than a few suckers who bought fake vaccination cards.
A stupid American who is going to spend time in prison for breaking the law is similar to a nation selling junk items...
okay!
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 01, 2021, 12:15:56 PM
People always trying to make a buck. No different than China selling millions of fake N95 masks, which could have caused thousands more infections and deaths on a much greater scale than a few suckers who bought fake vaccination cards.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/049eed60-9ed4-43d2-a005-124466a78322/ddc9nrb-d925f469-63c4-4bd1-b52e-f4002df2be95.jpg/v1/fill/w_620,h_402,q_75,strp/whataboutism_by_chaser1992_ddc9nrb-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9NDAyIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMDQ5ZWVkNjAtOWVkNC00M2QyLWEwMDUtMTI0NDY2YTc4MzIyXC9kZGM5bnJiLWQ5MjVmNDY5LTYzYzQtNGJkMS1iNTJlLWY0MDAyZGYyYmU5NS5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NjIwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.efoeHKT_ml4lj7GXMlnjCMgbdhQ0hAp66NM5cLCUZPs)
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 01, 2021, 12:15:56 PM
People always trying to make a buck. No different than China selling millions of fake N95 masks, which could have caused thousands more infections and deaths on a much greater scale than a few suckers who bought fake vaccination cards.
Fucking moron post.
Hey tower ... you need to come down here to Charlotte and talk some sense into your fellow firefighters!
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article253927283.html?
Some 62% of nearly 8,000 Charlotte government employees are at least partially vaccinated, the city announced Wednesday.
That's based on a workforce survey that had a 95% response rate, city spokesman Cory Burkarth said.
Vaccination rates vary dramatically across city departments, with the Charlotte Fire Department — with 1,224 employees — posting the lowest rate: 49%. The Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department, with 2,407 employees, had a 63% vaccination rate, according to city data.
Charlotte is experiencing another coronavirus surge caused by the highly contagious delta variant. But local doctors say this is a surge of the unvaccinated, with unprotected people accounting for the overwhelming number of coronavirus patients requiring intensive care and ventilators.
In Mecklenburg County, 57% of residents are at least partially vaccinated as of Wednesday, according to the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services.
My department's vaccination rate is around 65%.
Fahrenheit, taught ewe sed it wuz mandatory inn yo department, hey?
If you catch it now and are unvaccinated, you no longer qualify for workman's comp and the days you miss come out of your sick leave. If you don't have enough, you go off payroll.
Not yet mandatory.
From the Washington Post:
A memo sent Wednesday to NBA teams warned that unvaccinated players for the New York Knicks, Brooklyn Nets and Golden State Warriors would not be able to play in home games this season at their respective arenas.
The NBA does not have a vaccine mandate for its players, but in a memo obtained by The Washington Post, the league pointed to requirements recently enacted in New York City and San Francisco that affect a broad spectrum of public activity. Those ordinances reportedly do not apply to out-of-town athletes, meaning that unvaccinated members of visiting teams could play at Barclays Center, Chase Center and Madison Square Garden.
Quote from: MU82 on September 02, 2021, 01:23:24 PM
From the Washington Post:
A memo sent Wednesday to NBA teams warned that unvaccinated players for the New York Knicks, Brooklyn Nets and Golden State Warriors would not be able to play in home games this season at their respective arenas.
The NBA does not have a vaccine mandate for its players, but in a memo obtained by The Washington Post, the league pointed to requirements recently enacted in New York City and San Francisco that affect a broad spectrum of public activity. Those ordinances reportedly do not apply to out-of-town athletes, meaning that unvaccinated members of visiting teams could play at Barclays Center, Chase Center and Madison Square Garden.
United Center said today that everyone entering the building must either be vaccinated or get tested every time they enter. I hope they take it further to require everyone entering to be vaccinated.
Also, unvaccinated NBA players will have lockers as far away as possible from their vaccinated teammates and will have to eat, fly and ride buses in different sections as part of the league's anticipated COVID-19 health and safety protocols. The protocols were released to teams Thursday in a memo obtained by ESPN.
The rules are not final and subject to ongoing talks with the National Basketball Players Association, but the guidelines make it clear that vaccinated and unvaccinated players will have very different off-court experiences during the upcoming season.
Unvaccinated players will have to undergo testing on game days and practice days and, depending on team schedules, could have to test twice on some game days. Vaccinated players will not undergo daily testing and will only be tested if they have symptoms themselves or are exposed to someone confirmed as COVID-19 positive.
Quote from: MU82 on September 02, 2021, 01:23:24 PM
From the Washington Post:
A memo sent Wednesday to NBA teams warned that unvaccinated players for the New York Knicks, Brooklyn Nets and Golden State Warriors would not be able to play in home games this season at their respective arenas.
The NBA does not have a vaccine mandate for its players, but in a memo obtained by The Washington Post, the league pointed to requirements recently enacted in New York City and San Francisco that affect a broad spectrum of public activity. Those ordinances reportedly do not apply to out-of-town athletes, meaning that unvaccinated members of visiting teams could play at Barclays Center, Chase Center and Madison Square Garden.
Hmm maybe Brooklyn will return to New Jersey for the year so Kyrie's dumba$$ can play.
Getting my booster tomorrow 8-)
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 03, 2021, 01:49:08 PM
Getting my booster tomorrow 8-)
Nice! When was your first round complete?
At the risk of kicking a hornets nest. Wondering why there is so much negativity towards ivermectin. Admittedly I have no opinion on it and hadn't heard about it til seeing it on Scoop but there seems to be enough positive data to at least study further??
The guy who developed the use ignition humans won the Nobel Prize for crying out loud and the use of it has been credited with saving millions of lives. Who knows what the real world benefits are as it relates to C19 but to cast it off as simply horse dewormer seems like a waste of an opportunity.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ofid/ofab358/6316214
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 03, 2021, 03:27:13 PM
At the risk of kicking a hornets nest. Wondering why there is so much negativity towards ivermectin. Admittedly I have no opinion on it and hadn't heard about it til seeing it on Scoop but there seems to be enough positive data to at least study further??
The guy who developed the use ignition humans won the Nobel Prize for crying out loud and the use of it has been credited with saving millions of lives. Who knows what the real world benefits are as it relates to C19 but to cast it off as simply horse dewormer seems like a waste of an opportunity.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ofid/ofab358/6316214
Mhm
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 03, 2021, 03:27:13 PM
At the risk of kicking a hornets nest. Wondering why there is so much negativity towards ivermectin. Admittedly I have no opinion on it and hadn't heard about it til seeing it on Scoop but there seems to be enough positive data to at least study further??
The guy who developed the use ignition humans won the Nobel Prize for crying out loud and the use of it has been credited with saving millions of lives. Who knows what the real world benefits are as it relates to C19 but to cast it off as simply horse dewormer seems like a waste of an opportunity.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ofid/ofab358/6316214
1. The negativity seems primarily directed at the people pushing an unproven, unvetted treatment to the extent that people are misusing a livestock version of it with sometimes terrible consequences. People are casting it off as "simply horse dewormer" because that's literally what people are ingesting.
2. Because the drug, under a doctor's guidance, can be used to treat one illness does not mean it can or should be used to treat another. Chemotherapy can be an effective treatment for cancer, but I'm not injecting chemo every time I get a headache. Simply put, at this time there is no solid evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID.
3. While he supports further study (which is happening), the inventor you mention, Dr. William Campbell, has said the probability of ivermectin being an effective treatment for COVID is low and that tests showing its potential as a treatment involve a concentration of the drug far higher than what's normal human use.
https://www.ria.ie/news/publications-covid-19-research-response/does-ivermectin-kill-covid-19-virus
4. The metastudy you linked has been withdrawn because some of the data they relied upon was fraudulent.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/8/8/ofab394/6346765
But other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?
Quote from: Pakuni on September 03, 2021, 04:33:32 PM
1. The negativity seems primarily directed at the people pushing an unproven, unvetted treatment to the extent that people are misusing a livestock version of it with sometimes terrible consequences. People are casting it off as "simply horse dewormer" because that's literally what people are ingesting.
2. Because the drug, under a doctor's guidance, can be used to treat one illness does not mean it can or should be used to treat another. Chemotherapy can be an effective treatment for cancer, but I'm not injecting chemo every time I get a headache. Simply put, at this time there is no solid evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID.
3. While he supports further study (which is happening), the inventor you mention, Dr. William Campbell, has said the probability of ivermectin being an effective treatment for COVID is low and that tests showing its potential as a treatment involve a concentration of the drug far higher than what's normal human use.
https://www.ria.ie/news/publications-covid-19-research-response/does-ivermectin-kill-covid-19-virus
4. The metastudy you linked has been withdrawn because some of the data they relied upon was fraudulent.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/8/8/ofab394/6346765
I'm not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid. But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there's even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into. 🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 03, 2021, 05:59:04 PM
I'm not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid. But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there's even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into. 🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!
It should be looked into, as with any other potential treatment.
But the negativity surrounding the use of the version intended for deworming livestock is justified. People who do so are dumb, and - as with much in this pandemic - being led down a dangerous path by people who know better.
Literally hundreds of calls to poison control. People pooping out their intestinal lining because they trust their facebook feed more than science. Willful stupidity.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 03, 2021, 05:59:04 PM
I'm not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid. But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there's even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into. 🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!
As Pakuni mentioned, the meta-study you linked to was withdrawn, as a key study within it was retracted due to fraudulent data. That fraudulent study was the only one showing a significant positive effect. Well, except for another earlier retracted paper that relied on Surgisphere, who was outed for manufacturing data.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w
(https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w)
Ivermectin has been looked into. Studies so far show no real effect, and contrary to what you say, it is not exactly the safest of drugs. It is also still continuing to be looked at; but if they were seeing real, tangible early benefits, we'd already have heard of preliminary results from these large controlled studies.
So people are attacking it, largely because it is being driven as a medication from quacks and conspiracy theorists, and as Tower mentions is causing actual physical harm to people.
We have a way to prevent COVID...the vaccine. We have ways proven to help treat it: monoclonals. Those taking horse medicine are frankly idiots following conspiracy theories.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 03, 2021, 05:59:04 PM
I'm not saying today it should/could be trusted for treating Covid. But the safety profile when you take the human version and not the animal version/dose seems sound so if there's even a hint of it working I think it should be looked into. 🤞the continual study of it brings some good news!!
Pace, do you get tired of getting dunked on every time you come here?
What happened to HCQ? Why is ivermectin the new hotness?
Contrariness. Conscious choice. Choosing facebook over facts.
Quote from: tower912 on September 03, 2021, 06:38:08 PM
Literally hundreds of calls to poison control. People pooping out their intestinal lining because they trust their facebook feed more than science. Willful stupidity.
I'm beginning to be pro Ivermectin. Darwin at work.
Patients overdosing on ivermectin backing up rural Oklahoma hospitals, ambulances
https://kfor.com/news/local/patients-overdosing-on-ivermectin-backing-up-rural-oklahoma-hospitals-ambulances/
Quote from: forgetful on September 03, 2021, 07:15:38 PM
As Pakuni mentioned, the meta-study you linked to was withdrawn, as a key study within it was retracted due to fraudulent data. That fraudulent study was the only one showing a significant positive effect. Well, except for another earlier retracted paper that relied on Surgisphere, who was outed for manufacturing data.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w
(https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w)
Ivermectin has been looked into. Studies so far show no real effect, and contrary to what you say, it is not exactly the safest of drugs. It is also still continuing to be looked at; but if they were seeing real, tangible early benefits, we'd already have heard of preliminary results from these large controlled studies.
So people are attacking it, largely because it is being driven as a medication from quacks and conspiracy theorists, and as Tower mentions is causing actual physical harm to people.
We have a way to prevent COVID...the vaccine. We have ways proven to help treat it: monoclonals. Those taking horse medicine are frankly idiots following conspiracy theories.
Is it also not prescribed millions of times a year for humans? I'm certainly not suggesting going to fleet farm and self medicating, but I heard it was prescribed 100,000 times just last week.
And if it showed enough promise to be looked at in large controlled trials is it really that extreme for people to be pushing it? I agree with you on just getting the vaccine but I don't think it's that crazy for someone to be promoting a drug that showed enough potential to still be actively studied.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 03, 2021, 07:23:15 PM
Pace, do you get tired of getting dunked on every time you come here?
Pakuni and I finally agree on something and you think that's me getting dunked on? I simply asked why so much hatred for it. Asked a few questions, got the answers but they were all with the caveat that it should still be studied. I wouldn't call that getting dunked on.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 03, 2021, 07:53:29 PM
Is it also not prescribed millions of times a year for humans? I'm certainly not suggesting going to fleet farm and self medicating, but I heard it was prescribed 100,000 times just last week.
And if it showed enough promise to be looked at in large controlled trials is it really that extreme for people to be pushing it? I agree with you on just getting the vaccine but I don't think it's that crazy for someone to be promoting a drug that showed enough potential to still be actively studied.
The guy who invented the drug says that levels for human treatment don't help with Covid. And since anti vaxxers are conservative, er, stupid, they ignore safety protocols.
Stupid people advocate an unproven drug to cure Covid, while ignoring a tested proven preventative measure, killing other stupid people, but more importantly, take resources from responsible people that need them.
Which group do you fall in?
Quote from: pbiflyer on September 03, 2021, 08:03:33 PM
The guy who invented the drug says that levels for human treatment don't help with Covid. And since anti vaxxers are conservative, er, stupid, they ignore safety protocols.
Stupid people advocate an unproven drug to cure Covid, while ignoring a tested proven preventative measure, killing other stupid people, but more importantly, take resources from responsible people that need them.
Which group do you fall in?
https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/SUMMARY-OF-THE-EVIDENCE-BASE-FINAL.pdf
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/90552
I'm in the group that reads things like these above articles (especially the second link) and think hell maybe these guys are right and maybe ignorantly or out of naivety get hopeful it might actually work. I don't disregard things just got Don Lemon tells me to.
I've been long ago vaccinated so 🤞I'll never have to worry about the idea of taking a treatment cocktail for Covid but I'm hopeful for continued progress on therapeutics etc so we can stop seeing the equivalent of 3 Pearl Harbors worth of American deaths every week.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 03, 2021, 07:53:29 PM
Is it also not prescribed millions of times a year for humans? I'm certainly not suggesting going to fleet farm and self medicating, but I heard it was prescribed 100,000 times just last week.
And if it showed enough promise to be looked at in large controlled trials is it really that extreme for people to be pushing it? I agree with you on just getting the vaccine but I don't think it's that crazy for someone to be promoting a drug that showed enough potential to still be actively studied.
It is prescribed, mostly in the developing world as a single dose treatment of ~150 micrograms/Kg body weight. You get a single dose once every year or two years. It is the only known treatment for specific parasitic infections. Compared to previous treatments, it is safe, but people still die from this treatment.
The original dosages tried in cell culture, where viral replication was moderately slowed (this is what led to clinical trials...they tried everything that might have a remote effect), required ~150x higher dose.
Even at the lower efficacy thresholds, it would require giving Ivermectin at 30-50x the recommended dose. For prevention, that type of dosage would kill you pretty quick. For treatment, it would make you far far more ill than COVID was.
Clinical trials are pushing the envelope on what is safe at ~2-3x the normal dose. Those are showing no effect.
But people are then taking horse medicine, to reach the dosage amounts in quack/conspiracy theory groups and damn near killing themselves.
If you wonder why people think you are a troll, or seal, it is because of this. You are pushing fringe conspiracy theories, with zero effort to look into this on your own, and instead linking articles that are retracted.
Quote from: forgetful on September 03, 2021, 08:41:34 PM
It is prescribed, mostly in the developing world as a single dose treatment of ~150 micrograms/Kg body weight. You get a single dose once every year or two years. It is the only known treatment for specific parasitic infections. Compared to previous treatments, it is safe, but people still die from this treatment.
The original dosages tried in cell culture, where viral replication was moderately slowed (this is what led to clinical trials...they tried everything that might have a remote effect), required ~150x higher dose.
Even at the lower efficacy thresholds, it would require giving Ivermectin at 30-50x the recommended dose. For prevention, that type of dosage would kill you pretty quick. For treatment, it would make you far far more ill than COVID was.
Clinical trials are pushing the envelope on what is safe at ~2-3x the normal dose. Those are showing no effect.
But people are then taking horse medicine, to reach the dosage amounts in quack/conspiracy theory groups and damn near killing themselves.
If you wonder why people think you are a troll, or seal, it is because of this. You are pushing fringe conspiracy theories, with zero effort to look into this on your own, and instead linking articles that are retracted.
The link I posted acknowledged and agreed about that one study from Egypt I believe getting retracted. But they said that was 1 of 28 in the meta analysis they performed which didn't change their opinion on the overall potential of it?
I don't have a ton of time to read about this stuff and like I said I just heard about this drug within the last week. I've read quite a few studies with some showing promising results with others not showing much affect at all but none of them raised safety concerns or crazy adverse events with taking it. Obviously taking any medication outside the guidance and watch of a doctor is insane so the people taking horse pills is an example of Darwinism at it's finest as a previous poster suggested.
Quote from: forgetful on September 03, 2021, 08:41:34 PM
It is prescribed, mostly in the developing world as a single dose treatment of ~150 micrograms/Kg body weight. You get a single dose once every year or two years. It is the only known treatment for specific parasitic infections. Compared to previous treatments, it is safe, but people still die from this treatment.
The original dosages tried in cell culture, where viral replication was moderately slowed (this is what led to clinical trials...they tried everything that might have a remote effect), required ~150x higher dose.
Even at the lower efficacy thresholds, it would require giving Ivermectin at 30-50x the recommended dose. For prevention, that type of dosage would kill you pretty quick. For treatment, it would make you far far more ill than COVID was.
Clinical trials are pushing the envelope on what is safe at ~2-3x the normal dose. Those are showing no effect.
But people are then taking horse medicine, to reach the dosage amounts in quack/conspiracy theory groups and damn near killing themselves.
If you wonder why people think you are a troll, or seal, it is because of this. You are pushing fringe conspiracy theories, with zero effort to look into this on your own, and instead linking articles that are retracted.
You're also way underestimating how often this is prescribed and at what dosage levels. CDC requires it for anyone coming in from different parts of the world.
https://mobile.twitter.com/drdrew/status/1433963943756636168/photo/1
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 03, 2021, 09:30:58 PM
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
Hopefully human crazy pills and not bovine
Quote from: Pakuni on September 03, 2021, 04:33:32 PM
1. The negativity seems primarily directed at the people pushing an unproven, unvetted treatment to the extent that people are misusing a livestock version of it with sometimes terrible consequences. People are casting it off as "simply horse dewormer" because that's literally what people are ingesting.
2. Because the drug, under a doctor's guidance, can be used to treat one illness does not mean it can or should be used to treat another. Chemotherapy can be an effective treatment for cancer, but I'm not injecting chemo every time I get a headache. Simply put, at this time there is no solid evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID.
3. While he supports further study (which is happening), the inventor you mention, Dr. William Campbell, has said the probability of ivermectin being an effective treatment for COVID is low and that tests showing its potential as a treatment involve a concentration of the drug far higher than what's normal human use.
https://www.ria.ie/news/publications-covid-19-research-response/does-ivermectin-kill-covid-19-virus
4. The metastudy you linked has been withdrawn because some of the data they relied upon was fraudulent.
https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/8/8/ofab394/6346765
Another article: You are not a horse
https://www.spencereveningworld.com/story/news/health/2021/08/23/covid-warning-treatment-ivermectin-fda-mississippi/8244302002/ (https://www.spencereveningworld.com/story/news/health/2021/08/23/covid-warning-treatment-ivermectin-fda-mississippi/8244302002/)
Quote from: forgetful on September 03, 2021, 07:15:38 PM
As Pakuni mentioned, the meta-study you linked to was withdrawn, as a key study within it was retracted due to fraudulent data. That fraudulent study was the only one showing a significant positive effect. Well, except for another earlier retracted paper that relied on Surgisphere, who was outed for manufacturing data.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w
(https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w)
Ivermectin has been looked into. Studies so far show no real effect, and contrary to what you say, it is not exactly the safest of drugs. It is also still continuing to be looked at; but if they were seeing real, tangible early benefits, we'd already have heard of preliminary results from these large controlled studies.
So people are attacking it, largely because it is being driven as a medication from quacks and conspiracy theorists, and as Tower mentions is causing actual physical harm to people.
We have a way to prevent COVID...the vaccine. We have ways proven to help treat it: monoclonals. Those taking horse medicine are frankly idiots following conspiracy theories.
Very reasonable answer to a very unreasonable troll. He knows there have been studies and continue to be studies. Disingenuous trolls will do what they do.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1434342610039095297
Amazing
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/us/coronavirus-booster-shots.html?partner=slack&smid=sl-share
Blind leading the blind.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 04, 2021, 09:36:19 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1434342610039095297
Amazing
That quote raised alarm bells for me right away. How many gun shot victims are there in Oklahoma? Ivermectin still sucks for COVID though.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/ivermectin-covid-study-suspect-data
https://gidmk.medium.com/is-ivermectin-for-covid-19-based-on-fraudulent-research-part-3-5066aa6819b3
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/judge-orders-ohio-hospital-treat-covid-patient-ivermectin-n1278267
Have we talked about this yet? Does this ruling set a precedent that patients can dictate their own medical treatment moving forward?
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 05, 2021, 08:25:19 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/judge-orders-ohio-hospital-treat-covid-patient-ivermectin-n1278267
Have we talked about this yet? Does this ruling set a precedent that patients can dictate their own medical treatment moving forward?
Seems like Fred Wagshul should have his medical license suspended.
Quote from: pbiflyer on September 03, 2021, 07:33:27 PM
I'm beginning to be pro Ivermectin. Darwin at work.
Patients overdosing on ivermectin backing up rural Oklahoma hospitals, ambulances
https://kfor.com/news/local/patients-overdosing-on-ivermectin-backing-up-rural-oklahoma-hospitals-ambulances/
If only it were true.
https://fox59.com/news/gunshot-victims-left-to-wait-as-oklahoma-hospitals-overwhelmed-with-horse-dewormer-overdoses-doctor-says/
The media is trying WAAAAY too hard to provide disinformation. I guess the left is tying to Out-Fox Fox. 70% is close to 2%, right?
https://www.sfgate.com/news/amp/Health-Dept-Stop-taking-livestock-medicine-to-16405982.php?__twitter_impression=true
Panthers starting guard John Miller, apparently one of only 2 unvaccinated players on the team (out of 69 on either the active roster or practice squad) will have to sit out 10 days and miss the team's opener after being placed on the Covid list.
But that's cool. It affects only him.
I agree with this tweet.
https://twitter.com/MonicaGandhi9/status/1433808689073328128?s=20
Quote from: naginiF on September 03, 2021, 03:04:38 PM
Nice! When was your first round complete?
Back in February. I know it's slightly early but Doc said it was fine since I was taking my mom to get hers anyways. They gave me moderna though which is weird since I had Pfizer... not sure if that's ok or not, hope so.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 07, 2021, 08:38:48 AM
I agree with this tweet.
https://twitter.com/MonicaGandhi9/status/1433808689073328128?s=20
I agree. As a vaxxed person, I am feeling a little uncomfortable without a mask in public places, however I know that's not totally rational. The actual data seems to tell me I'm going overboard, but the messaging seems to only be impacting those who are vaccinated and taking things seriously.
It seems like many unvaccinated people are saying that it doesn't stop you from Covid, so what's the point. I also think many people feel they are healthier than they are, so don't view themselves as high risk.
Quote from: MU82 on September 07, 2021, 08:24:26 AM
Panthers starting guard John Miller, apparently one of only 2 unvaccinated players on the team (out of 69 on either the active roster or practice squad) will have to sit out 10 days and miss the team's opener after being placed on the Covid list.
But that's cool. It affects only him.
They should have cut the ignorant fool. He showed what he thinks about the concept of "team".
I'm pretty comfortable how my wife and I are treating this whole thing.
We are fully vaccinated; my wife will soon get a booster shot, as will I when my turn comes if it's recommended. We obey all mask mandates. When in a crowd, whether indoors or outdoors, we put on our masks. When we go out to eat, which we did twice over the weekend, we prefer outside but will sit inside as long as we're more than a few feet away from other diners. I have resumed umpiring fall ball and I don't wear a mask because it's outside and I'm not in face-to-face situations with others. Etc etc etc. We know the delta variant is out there and there is a very slight chance we could get infected, but we also know we can't be 100% safe from anything, so we will live our lives as normally as possible using readily available, common-sense measures that show we care about our own health and that of our fellow human beings.
If I had a kid in school, I'd want there to be a mask mandate. It's a non-terrible extra layer of protection. Politics is the only reason to object to it IMHO.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 07, 2021, 09:05:31 AM
Back in February. I know it's slightly early but Doc said it was fine since I was taking my mom to get hers anyways. They gave me moderna though which is weird since I had Pfizer... not sure if that's ok or not, hope so.
I believe some small studies are actually suggesting that mixing vaccines is preferable (not sure how that plays with J&J). I think Israel or some other country had been studying that a bit to try to get folks fully vaxxed back in the earlier days of vaccine availability. Sorry that I'm not able to look up the study right now but I'm thinking it should be pretty googleable.
Quote from: MU82 on September 07, 2021, 11:41:59 AM
I'm pretty comfortable how my wife and I are treating this whole thing.
We are fully vaccinated; my wife will soon get a booster shot, as will I when my turn comes if it's recommended. We obey all mask mandates. When in a crowd, whether indoors or outdoors, we put on our masks. When we go out to eat, which we did twice over the weekend, we prefer outside but will sit inside as long as we're more than a few feet away from other diners. I have resumed umpiring fall ball and I don't wear a mask because it's outside and I'm not in face-to-face situations with others. Etc etc etc. We know the delta variant is out there and there is a very slight chance we could get infected, but we also know we can't be 100% safe from anything, so we will live our lives as normally as possible using readily available, common-sense measures that show we care about our own health and that of our fellow human beings.
If I had a kid in school, I'd want there to be a mask mandate. It's a non-terrible extra layer of protection. Politics is the only reason to object to it IMHO.
Would you support a mask mandate then forever moving forward? Covid isn't going away, there's plenty of other viruses that pose risk to kids and then the risk for them to bring those bugs home to their immune comprised family members or neighbors that pose an equally/possibly more threatening situation or how long would you have this mask mandate in place?
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 07, 2021, 11:48:34 AM
I believe some small studies are actually suggesting that mixing vaccines is preferable (not sure how that plays with J&J). I think Israel or some other country had been studying that a bit to try to get folks fully vaxxed back in the earlier days of vaccine availability. Sorry that I'm not able to look up the study right now but I'm thinking it should be pretty googleable.
That's good to hear. Having a reaction to moderna sucks had none to Pfizer but who cares as long as it works!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 07, 2021, 01:15:20 PM
Would you support a mask mandate then forever moving forward? Covid isn't going away, there's plenty of other viruses that pose risk to kids and then the risk for them to bring those bugs home to their immune comprised family members or neighbors that pose an equally/possibly more threatening situation or how long would you have this mask mandate in place?
I don't want to speak for '82, but its gotta be until we get a vaccine approved for kids, right? Provided no variants pop up between now and then that are landing the vaccinated in the hospital, that's the point where I go "Okay, that's enough of all this."
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 07, 2021, 01:31:21 PM
I don't want to speak for '82, but its gotta be until we get a vaccine approved for kids, right? Provided no variants pop up between now and then that are landing the vaccinated in the hospital, that's the point where I go "Okay, that's enough of all this."
I hope you're right. I was at our complex pool yesterday. A woman was sitting in a sun chair fairly separated in a bathing suit reading...while wearing a mask. She lives a few doors down from our friends in the same building. She and her husband are empty nesters, both fully vaccinated and healthy (she takes pilates with my wife occasionally), kids and grandkids live out of state, both vaccinated. Pool filled up as people took advantage of a nice Labor Day. Id say about 50% of chairs and benches were filled with people. She abruptly got up and left telling the group next to her "I don't feel comfortable, too many people here, its risky".
Again, anecdotal, but everyone has plenty of stories like that and its not science based. The truth is, regardless of spiked cases, vaccinated people are suddenly thinking like its mid 2020 again based on things they are hearing. And I worry thats going to drag on far longer than it should cause COVID Zero is not a thing that will ever happen.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 07, 2021, 02:33:16 PM
I hope you're right. I was at our complex pool yesterday. A woman was sitting in a sun chair fairly separated in a bathing suit reading...while wearing a mask. She lives a few doors down from our friends in the same building. She and her husband are empty nesters, both fully vaccinated and healthy (she takes pilates with my wife occasionally), kids and grandkids live out of state, both vaccinated. Pool filled up as people took advantage of a nice Labor Day. Id say about 50% of chairs and benches were filled with people. She abruptly got up and left telling the group next to her "I don't feel comfortable, too many people here, its risky".
Again, anecdotal, but everyone has plenty of stories like that and its not science based. The truth is, regardless of spiked cases, vaccinated people are suddenly thinking like its mid 2020 again based on things they are hearing. And I worry thats going to drag on far longer than it should cause COVID Zero is not a thing that will ever happen.
These people are
almost as unreasonable as those who refuse the vaccine.
I am vaccinated, will wear a mask when requested, but will not wear one when I attend Summerfest this week.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 07, 2021, 01:15:20 PM
Would you support a mask mandate then forever moving forward? Covid isn't going away, there's plenty of other viruses that pose risk to kids and then the risk for them to bring those bugs home to their immune comprised family members or neighbors that pose an equally/possibly more threatening situation or how long would you have this mask mandate in place?
I could make up something, but for now I'll settle for "I don't know." Because that's the truth.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 07, 2021, 02:33:16 PM
I hope you're right. I was at our complex pool yesterday. A woman was sitting in a sun chair fairly separated in a bathing suit reading...while wearing a mask. She lives a few doors down from our friends in the same building. She and her husband are empty nesters, both fully vaccinated and healthy (she takes pilates with my wife occasionally), kids and grandkids live out of state, both vaccinated. Pool filled up as people took advantage of a nice Labor Day. Id say about 50% of chairs and benches were filled with people. She abruptly got up and left telling the group next to her "I don't feel comfortable, too many people here, its risky".
Again, anecdotal, but everyone has plenty of stories like that and its not science based. The truth is, regardless of spiked cases, vaccinated people are suddenly thinking like its mid 2020 again based on things they are hearing. And I worry thats going to drag on far longer than it should cause COVID Zero is not a thing that will ever happen.
Yep, anecdotal ... like the no-mask-wearing guy in the sleeveless shirt (with a photo of a gun against an American flag backdrop, of course) who walked right past the "please wear a mask" sign and into my local Publix yesterday. In addition to the business not wanting un-masked people in the store, our county has an indoor mask mandate. The guy strutted around the store, and you could tell he was just begging for a confrontation. No store employee or shopper said anything to him, at least not that I saw. I admit I didn't, either, as I am rather fond of my teeth.
I'd argue that's a lot more infuriating, and potentially more dangerous to others, than an overly cautious lady who got up from your pool for the opposite reason, but I'd agree that neither is helpful.
Quote from: MU82 on September 07, 2021, 03:15:19 PM
Yep, anecdotal ... like the no-mask-wearing guy in the sleeveless shirt (with a photo of a gun against an American flag backdrop, of course) who walked right past the "please wear a mask" sign and into my local Publix yesterday. In addition to the business not wanting un-masked people in the store, our county has an indoor mask mandate. The guy strutted around the store, and you could tell he was just begging for a confrontation. No store employee or shopper said anything to him, at least not that I saw. I admit I didn't, either, as I am rather fond of my teeth.
I'd argue that's a lot more infuriating, and potentially more dangerous to others, than an overly cautious lady who got up from your pool for the opposite reason, but I'd agree that neither is helpful.
Sure, but in response to the post I quoted, the latter is what will still make tough sledding when vaccines are available for all kids. Much like endemic COVID, anti-vaxx dipshits will always be around. Just like they are for flu vaccines or MMR for school children.
People find it harder to ignore, or be convinced of the absurdity outside the bounds of reason or science, those who are being "extra cautious". And that stokes fear and panic
Mask wearing causes fear and panic? Holy bizarro world.
Quote from: tower912 on September 07, 2021, 04:28:16 PM
Mask wearing causes fear and panic? Holy bizarro world.
Way to miss the point. We all know you think nothing of wearing a mask indefinitely. Keep preaching.
The messaging surrounding vaccinations and after-risk is flawed. Thats the point. Plus saying stuff like "we are right back where we were last March" due to hospitalization or cases numbers regarding unvaccinated people is what freaks people out enough to wear a mask outside. Or not feel comfortable out in public or in stores, even masked. It ignores the data on asymptomatic spread by the vaccinated. It ignores the true percentages and data around breakthrough cases. Its not "wear a mask to protect others", its messaging that breeds "im wearing a mask cause even though I'm vaccinated I might get Delta" mentalities.
But hey, its just producing excess caution, so who cares right? Except its not meaningfully improving vaccination numbers and just bolsters the screams of the idiot anti-vaxxers and those who say that masks and vaccines don't actually do anything.
It does no harm. As opposed to going unvaccinated, which does cause harm.
To use the car accident analogy made in the NYT article, there are people who drive drunk while texting. There are people who drive beige Camry's and Corolla's at or below the posted speed limits. One is annoying to get stuck behind. One causes damage.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 07, 2021, 04:44:21 PM
Way to miss the point. We all know you think nothing of wearing a mask indefinitely. Keep preaching.
The messaging surrounding vaccinations and after-risk is flawed. Thats the point. Plus saying stuff like "we are right back where we were last March" due to hospitalization or cases numbers regarding unvaccinated people is what freaks people out enough to wear a mask outside. Or not feel comfortable out in public or in stores, even masked. It ignores the data on asymptomatic spread by the vaccinated. It ignores the true percentages and data around breakthrough cases. Its not "wear a mask to protect others", its messaging that breeds "im wearing a mask cause even though I'm vaccinated I might get Delta" mentalities.
But hey, its just producing excess caution, so who cares right? Except its not meaningfully improving vaccination numbers and just bolsters the screams of the idiot anti-vaxxers and those who say that masks and vaccines don't actually do anything.
Do you know why this particular person was wearing a mask at the pool? How do you know she's healthy? Because she occasionally does pilates with your wife sometimes?
Quote from: Pakuni on September 07, 2021, 04:58:10 PM
Do you know why this particular person was wearing a mask at the pool? How do you know she's healthy? Because she occasionally does pilates with your wife sometimes?
Because it's a mid sized apartment community and everyone talks. The point was that she wasn't a random stranger. My wife was talking to another of the group she spoke to on the way out. She's just simply freaked out about getting Delta COVID. And she's not alone.
Quote from: tower912 on September 07, 2021, 04:52:37 PM
It does no harm. As opposed to going unvaccinated, which does cause harm.
To use the car accident analogy made in the NYT article, there are people who drive drunk while texting. There are people who drive beige Camry's and Corolla's at or below the posted speed limits. One is annoying to get stuck behind. One causes damage.
Until articles every day that make it seem like you're as likely to get into a car wreck going by the speed limit as those drunk driving. So suddenly half the cars on the road are going under the speed limit and people will be apprehensive about driving the limit for months.
It's conflating two issues. Nobody is excusing the unvaccinated. You're a selfish idiot at this point if you're refusing vaccine. But at the same time, the messaging approach should be "get vaccinated, your risk to yourself and others is MASSIVELY decreased, here's the path to get back to normal" instead of "get vaxxed but fear every variant and here's another break through case. Here's how we're trending similar to 2020, etc...". We have boosters coming, why are we making people apprehensive and fearful about everything instead of amped knowing their next booster is the next phase towards a semblance or normality
And you are saying an over abundance of caution is as bad as being anti-vax. To which i say horse feathers. (Or paste) One is annoying. One has far more dire consequences.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 07, 2021, 05:26:18 PM
Because it's a mid sized apartment community and everyone talks. The point was that she wasn't a random stranger. My wife was talking to another of the group she spoke to on the way out. She's just simply freaked out about getting Delta COVID. And she's not alone.
Your point about some of the vaccinated being overly concerned about COVID may be fair. But I would suggest you're making a ton of assumptions about this particular woman to fit your narrative. Unless you're her husband or doctor, I very much doubt you have the intimate knowledge of her health or what's going on in her life to make the kind of judgements about her that you're making. Maybe she has good reason to be freaked about Delta, maybe she doesn't. You don't know.
And as tower has pointed out ... who cares? If she's taking precautions you feel are unnecessary because it makes her feel more comfortable, what's it to you? It affects you not one iota.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 07, 2021, 05:26:18 PM
Because it's a mid sized apartment community and everyone talks. The point was that she wasn't a random stranger. My wife was talking to another of the group she spoke to on the way out. She's just simply freaked out about getting Delta COVID. And she's not alone.
People like to blame 'the media' for everything.
The reality is that a not insignificant group of people are going to be scared until wacky stuff stops happening.
Two major cities in FL asked people to conserve water so that more Oxygen was available for hospitals, Rural areas hospitals are being over-run to the point health care workers (Louisiana) and Governors (AL, ID as examples) are begging people to take public health precautions, Sen Bill Frist wrote a breathless tweet chain to implore TN government to take this seriously and put in public health measures, Everyone probably knows someone with a breakthrough by now. The silver lining is that vaccines are holding up incredibly well and remain the best measure we can all take to end this (in addition to a few others when spread is high).
We all want this to be over but its not....until that time I will take crazy swimmer every day of the week over the people harassing health care workers and MANDATING against public health measures. At least she is the kind of crazy that isnt going to harm me.
Quote from: tower912 on September 07, 2021, 05:35:45 PM
And you are saying an over abundance of caution is as bad as being anti-vax. To which i say horse feathers. (Or paste) One is annoying. One has far more dire consequences.
Where did I ever say it was "as bad"? Never. Stop with the absolutism which has become very en vogue with COVID. It was just an observation about something that was obnoxious in response to tweets from an MD who was bemoaning some of the bad messaging and how it was affecting people. Thats all.
At the end of the day, no it doesn't affect me. And again, this is a messageboard, its not real life, its not like im sitting stewing at my desk unable to do work cause Janice wore a mask to the pool. This endless COVID news cycle is exhausting and you try to find silver linings but then stuff like this makes you think this is never ending. And thats whats obnoxious, cause it feels like its silly and correctable. The anti-vaxx rhetoric and champions are a different level of despair inducing but that feels like emptying the ocean with a bucket.
And you can all feel free to disagree, as is your right, but I firmly believe that if mask mandates are widespread (right or wrong) and loudly banged upon, booster adoption, to the current vaccine percentages, will be difficult.
Things we know slow the spread of COVID. Vaccines, masks, social distancing. I am sorry you are weary of it all. News flash, everybody is tired after the last 18 months.
But the virus isn't tired. It has shown itself to be more determined and resilient than society.
Quote from: tower912 on September 07, 2021, 06:21:53 PM
Things we know slow the spread of COVID. Vaccines, masks, social distancing. I am sorry you are weary of it all. News flash, everybody is tired after the last 18 months.
But the virus isn't tired. It has shown itself to be more determined and resilient than society.
::)
Quote from: tower912 on September 07, 2021, 06:21:53 PM
Things we know slow the spread of COVID. Vaccines, masks, social distancing. I am sorry you are weary of it all. News flash, everybody is tired after the last 18 months.
But the virus isn't tired. It has shown itself to be more determined and resilient than society.
+100
Quote from: tower912 on September 07, 2021, 06:21:53 PM
Things we know slow the spread of COVID. Vaccines, masks, social distancing. I am sorry you are weary of it all. News flash, everybody is tired after the last 18 months.
But the virus isn't tired. It has shown itself to be more determined and resilient than society.
Not really. This exaggeration doesn't do people any good. Assuming the woman at the pool was vaccinated and didn't have any serious underlying conditions, she should be more concerned about tripping, falling into the pool and drowning than she should be catching Covid.
This is where Wags is coming from. People are likely engaging in a different risk analysis with Covid than they would have any other issue prior to the pandemic. It's illogical.
Illogical happens everyday. Remember when we used to judge crazy on whether or not it caused harm?
Wake me up when the masked swimmer is the one preventing the pandemic from ending.
Which exaggeration, pray tell? That everyone is tired of it? That the virus doesn't care? That vaccines, masks, and social distancing are the best mitigation strategies?
The woman by the pool harmed no one. She chose her level of comfort.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 07, 2021, 08:14:19 PM
Illogical happens everyday. Remember when we used to judge crazy on whether or not it caused harm?
Wake me up when the masked swimmer is the one preventing the pandemic from ending.
She's being illogical. Your second paragraph is just goalpost shifting.
Quote from: tower912 on September 07, 2021, 08:14:42 PM
Which exaggeration, pray tell? That everyone is tired of it? That the virus doesn't care? That vaccines, masks, and social distancing are the best mitigation strategies?
The woman by the pool harmed no one. She chose her level of comfort.
" But the virus isn't tired. It has shown itself to be more determined and resilient than society." That's eye rolling stuff right there.
And again, I never said she was harming anyone. She's being illogical.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 07, 2021, 08:18:27 PM
She's being illogical. Your second paragraph is just goalpost shifting.
Since I didn't establish the goal posts I guess shifting them are an accomplishment.
I said she was harmless crazy in my only other post on the topic.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 07, 2021, 08:21:59 PM
Since I didn't establish the goal posts I guess shifting them are an accomplishment.
I said she was harmless crazy in my only other post on the topic.
Well what she did was harmless no doubt. It doesn't bother me in the least. It's just illogical.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 07, 2021, 08:20:14 PM
" But the virus isn't tired. It has shown itself to be more determined and resilient than society." That's eye rolling stuff right there.
And again, I never said she was harming anyone. She's being illogical.
Why do you consider it eye rolling stuff? The virus exists to spread to compatible hosts. It has mutated multiple times to do that more efficiently. It will continue until it runs out out of compatible hosts. Maybe it mutates to go through everybody again, maybe it doesn't.
Society has decided to argue about the existence of the virus. To resist doing the things that will stop it. If CS Lewis was writing the Screwtape Letters today, it could be about the virus, not the devil. Or Kaiser Soze talking about the devil. The greatest trick the virus ever pulled.....
I think that eventually COVID will be all but eradicated. Too many interesting discoveries from actual science coming out. Until then, I have the lady by the pool's back. I prefer her type of illogic to the screaming mouth breathers offering up their children at the altar of COVID.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 07, 2021, 08:20:14 PM
And again, I never said she was harming anyone. She's being illogical.
How do you deem it illogical. Maybe she simply doesn't want to risk getting sick at all, and possibly missing work, getting others sick etc.
In many Asian countries they wear masks to avoid getting colds/flus, and sometimes just because of air quality. They view the fact that we do not wear masks more regularly as...illogical.
You are forcing you views of things on others. If her goal is simply not to risk getting sick at all, and the mask doesn't bother her...she is being the most logical. Benefit outweighs cost to her.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 07, 2021, 08:18:27 PM
She's being illogical. Your second paragraph is just goalpost shifting.
Maybe she is. Maybe she's not.
You don't know, and you guys are trying way too hard to look down your noses at someone based on a bunch of assumptions.
I think the whole argument here is cuz Fluff is trying to do to Tower what chicos does to everyone. He was/is looking for an argument using any flimsy excuse to attack.
It's not like the rest of us don't see it.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 07, 2021, 05:51:36 PM
People like to blame 'the media' for everything.
The reality is that a not insignificant group of people are going to be scared until wacky stuff stops happening.
Two major cities in FL asked people to conserve water so that more Oxygen was available for hospitals, Rural areas hospitals are being over-run to the point health care workers (Louisiana) and Governors (AL, ID as examples) are begging people to take public health precautions, Sen Bill Frist wrote a breathless tweet chain to implore TN government to take this seriously and put in public health measures, Everyone probably knows someone with a breakthrough by now. The silver lining is that vaccines are holding up incredibly well and remain the best measure we can all take to end this (in addition to a few others when spread is high).
We all want this to be over but its not....until that time I will take crazy swimmer every day of the week over the people harassing health care workers and MANDATING against public health measures. At least she is the kind of crazy that isnt going to harm me.
Excellent post.
Idaho is the latest state that doesn't have a freakin' ICU bed available for non-COVID emergencies. That's not because of the media or because people are being overly cautious about wearing masks.
Quote from: forgetful on September 07, 2021, 08:58:41 PM
In many Asian countries they wear masks to avoid getting colds/flus, and sometimes just because of air quality. They view the fact that we do not wear masks more regularly as...illogical.
This isn't an attack, cause I always respect your perspective and opinion on this topic, agree or not, but I keep seeing this pop up when people talk masks. I've been fortunate to travel a bunch in Asia for work. HK, multiple parts of China, Thailand, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia, etc... and I've never seen this to be the case. Do you see it more than in the US during non-COVID times? Of course. But in all my travels, it's still infrequent enough that you do a double take. One of my trade shows is in HK in the heart of flu/cold season, people traveling from all over Asia to visit, and you won't see more than handful over the tens of thousands of people in and around the show. It just feels like people use evidence from the SARS epidemic and the masks surrounding that and the years after to make it seem like masks are widespread.
(Granted this isn't talking somewhere like Beijing where smog is literally hazardous to health)
One in 5000 chance of getting breakthrough COVID, maybe up to 1/10,000 depending on the locale, if vaxed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/briefing/risk-breakthrough-infections-delta.html
Adding free link:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/one-5-000-real-chances-183201138.html
Quote from: forgetful on September 07, 2021, 08:58:41 PM
How do you deem it illogical. Maybe she simply doesn't want to risk getting sick at all, and possibly missing work, getting others sick etc.
In many Asian countries they wear masks to avoid getting colds/flus, and sometimes just because of air quality. They view the fact that we do not wear masks more regularly as...illogical.
You are forcing you views of things on others. If her goal is simply not to risk getting sick at all, and the mask doesn't bother her...she is being the most logical. Benefit outweighs cost to her.
Oh FFS, I am not "forcing my views" on anyone.
Her risk of getting sick if she is vaccinated outdoors is basically zero. I don't know how she can possibly make it through life with that risk tolerance. Which I am quite certain she didn't, but Covid has caused people to make illogical decisions. This is a great example of that.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 07, 2021, 10:29:29 PM
This isn't an attack, cause I always respect your perspective and opinion on this topic, agree or not, but I keep seeing this pop up when people talk masks. I've been fortunate to travel a bunch in Asia for work. HK, multiple parts of China, Thailand, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia, etc... and I've never seen this to be the case. Do you see it more than in the US during non-COVID times? Of course. But in all my travels, it's still infrequent enough that you do a double take. One of my trade shows is in HK in the heart of flu/cold season, people traveling from all over Asia to visit, and you won't see more than handful over the tens of thousands of people in and around the show. It just feels like people use evidence from the SARS epidemic and the masks surrounding that and the years after to make it seem like masks are widespread.
(Granted this isn't talking somewhere like Beijing where smog is literally hazardous to health)
Yep. I have a family member who has spent a lot of time in Japan pre-Covid, and he said that the statement that they wear masks during cold and flu season to be a complete exaggeration. Maybe older people, but that's about it.
Quote from: Jockey on September 07, 2021, 09:55:10 PM
I think the whole argument here is cuz Fluff is trying to do to Tower what chicos does to everyone. He was/is looking for an argument using any flimsy excuse to attack.
It's not like the rest of us don't see it.
No. I understand why you are confused though. I am using logic and intelligence to make my points, whereas you basically rely on emotion and political talking points. So you may want to stay away for a bit.
And you call me preachy. Logic and evidence say this is nowhere near over.
Quote from: tower912 on September 08, 2021, 06:33:17 AM
And you call me preachy. Logic and evidence say this is nowhere near over.
Well, it's over for me since I am vaccinated as is everyone in my household. I mask where it is required, but otherwise am pretty much doing what was doing beforehand. I mean, that was the whole point of being vaccinated right?
But my risk tolerance seems higher than many here who are like the lady at the pool. Oh well...
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 08, 2021, 06:39:14 AM
Well, it's over for me since I am vaccinated as is everyone in my household. I mask where it is required, but otherwise am pretty much doing what was doing beforehand. I mean, that was the whole point of being vaccinated right?
But my risk tolerance seems higher than many here who are like the lady at the pool. Oh well...
Fluff, I think what a lot of folks like you and I are trying to do is simply live our lives. I do find it interesting that there seems to be a segment in society that feels the need to comment on our doing that. No doubt there's a cottage industry out there that profits on the fear. That fear is probably legitimate for the morons that don't get vaxxed. This crap can actually kill them. But for us, nope, at least statistically speaking. Meaning that if we do end up being a breakthrough, it's gonna cost us a week on our couch. So yeah, we went to Summerfest last weekend. Living our lives.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 08, 2021, 02:20:39 AM
One in 5000 chance of getting breakthrough COVID, maybe up to 1/10,000 depending on the locale, if vaxed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/briefing/risk-breakthrough-infections-delta.html
Adding free link:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/one-5-000-real-chances-183201138.html
Just to be clear, those numbers are "per day" chances. Which makes sense; as awesome as the vaccines have been they aren't 99.98% effective in preventing infections. But, they are amazing at keeping the vaccinated out of the hospital and out of the cemetary.
Sum folks at da pool have moore face coverin's dan ass coverin's, hey?
Quote from: jsglow on September 08, 2021, 06:52:26 AM
Fluff, I think what a lot of folks like you and I are trying to do is simply live our lives. I do find it interesting that there seems to be a segment in society that feels the need to comment on our doing that. No doubt there's a cottage industry out there that profits on the fear. That fear is probably legitimate for the morons that don't get vaxxed. This crap can actually kill them. But for us, nope, at least statistically speaking. Meaning that if we do end up being a breakthrough, it's gonna cost us a week on our couch. So yeah, we went to Summerfest last weekend. Living our lives.
I don't know who has the high ground in the race to claim aggrieved status. This recent circle around the toilet bowl all started by calling out someone wearing a mask in a pool.
The pandemic not being over yet and the vaccinated being able to and actually taking more risk can happen at the same time.
Quote from: jsglow on September 08, 2021, 06:52:26 AM
Fluff, I think what a lot of folks like you and I are trying to do is simply live our lives. I do find it interesting that there seems to be a segment in society that feels the need to comment on our doing that. No doubt there's a cottage industry out there that profits on the fear. That fear is probably legitimate for the morons that don't get vaxxed. This crap can actually kill them. But for us, nope, at least statistically speaking. Meaning that if we do end up being a breakthrough, it's gonna cost us a week on our couch. So yeah, we went to Summerfest last weekend. Living our lives.
I appreciate this, and it similar to how my wife and I are living our lives now.
However, there also is a segment of society that feels the need to belittle those who have lower risk-tolerance levels than you and I do. A little more understanding on both ends might be called for.
That being said, I have little understanding or tolerance for those who don't get the vaccine ... and even less for those in power and those in the extreme-right media who go out of their way to demonize the vaccines. Talk about a cottage industry that profits on fear!
Quote from: jsglow on September 08, 2021, 06:52:26 AM
Fluff, I think what a lot of folks like you and I are trying to do is simply live our lives. I do find it interesting that there seems to be a segment in society that feels the need to comment on our doing that. No doubt there's a cottage industry out there that profits on the fear. That fear is probably legitimate for the morons that don't get vaxxed. This crap can actually kill them. But for us, nope, at least statistically speaking. Meaning that if we do end up being a breakthrough, it's gonna cost us a week on our couch. So yeah, we went to Summerfest last weekend. Living our lives.
You're taking the necessary precautions, doing what's best for those around you by getting vaccinated and living your life as you see fit.
That's awesome. I'm doing the same. Parties, ballgames, restaurants, vacations, etc. All without a mask unless required by the venue.
Now, if someone you don't intimately know, for reasons you don't know, chooses to take some additional precaution because that makes him or her feel more comfortable - even if they're not the exact same precautions you decide are necessary for you - do you have a problem with that? Does it upset you? Make you feel the need to cast aspersions on or mock that person? Make judgements about that person and their state of mind based on a bunch of assumptions? Point to that person as a shining example of society trapped by fear?
Me, I just live my life and let them live theirs.
Plus, a lot of this stuff is based on personal experiences.
We all are getting to know the statistics: If you are vaccinated, you are unlikely to get COVID-19, and if you do, it is likely to be very mild. Also, if you are a child, although you are more likely to get Covid now than you were pre-delta, it still almost surely will be mild if you do get it.
Now, if a person you know and/or love gets Covid despite being vaccinated and/or despite being a child, and that person gets very ill or even dies, that very likely will shape your perspective.
My wife is somewhat less risk-tolerant than I am when it comes to this virus because she personally has seen a 2-year-old with serious Covid and has personally watched a fellow nurse -- perfectly healthy and vaccinated -- go on a ventilator for 2 weeks and still be messed up weeks later.
Most of us don't advocate for stricter laws against drunk driving ... until somebody we love is killed by a drunk driver.
What I learned from these last few pages: We're all really f*cking tired of this and are arguing about the 10% on the margins we disagree on.
Three Vermont state troopers resign amid investigation into their involvement in a face vaccine card scheme.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/08/us/vermont-troopers-fake-covid-vaccine-card.html
Quote from: JWags85 on September 07, 2021, 10:29:29 PM
This isn't an attack, cause I always respect your perspective and opinion on this topic, agree or not, but I keep seeing this pop up when people talk masks. I've been fortunate to travel a bunch in Asia for work. HK, multiple parts of China, Thailand, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia, etc... and I've never seen this to be the case. Do you see it more than in the US during non-COVID times? Of course. But in all my travels, it's still infrequent enough that you do a double take. One of my trade shows is in HK in the heart of flu/cold season, people traveling from all over Asia to visit, and you won't see more than handful over the tens of thousands of people in and around the show. It just feels like people use evidence from the SARS epidemic and the masks surrounding that and the years after to make it seem like masks are widespread.
(Granted this isn't talking somewhere like Beijing where smog is literally hazardous to health)
No offense or attack taken. Admittedly, I haven't traveled a lot in Asia, so am going off of what I have seen/read. It would appear that isn't exactly accurate. I appreciate the correction.
I would still argue that her personal actions are not illogical, as it is based on an individuals circumstances.
A mask mandate in such an environment (like the outdoor mandate in Oregon) would be illogical.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 08, 2021, 02:20:39 AM
One in 5000 chance of getting breakthrough COVID, maybe up to 1/10,000 depending on the locale, if vaxed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/briefing/risk-breakthrough-infections-delta.html
Adding free link:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/one-5-000-real-chances-183201138.html
If you use these numbers to calculate vaccine efficacy that results in an efficacy of around 80%.
I hate that media is using those 1/5,000 or 1/10,000 chance. It is an entirely misleading way of presenting the data and indicating vaccine efficacy. What they should be showing is what the efficacy is for a newly vaccinated person (likely 95% still), and one vaccinated in early Jan/Feb (now around 65%), for an average efficacy of ~80%.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 08, 2021, 02:20:39 AM
One in 5000 chance of getting breakthrough COVID, maybe up to 1/10,000 depending on the locale, if vaxed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/briefing/risk-breakthrough-infections-delta.html
Adding free link:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/one-5-000-real-chances-183201138.html
Yet as mentioned upstream, we likely all know people that have had break through cases. If your stats were correct, that likely would not be true, knowing people with break through cases would be rare.
I have coworkers, neighbors, and friends all with break through cases. Granted only one ended up in hospitalization (yah science!), but if your numbers were right, I would know an inordinately large percentage of the break through cases.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 08, 2021, 07:52:40 AM
You're taking the necessary precautions, doing what's best for those around you by getting vaccinated and living your life as you see fit.
That's awesome. I'm doing the same. Parties, ballgames, restaurants, vacations, etc. All without a mask unless required by the venue.
Now, if someone you don't intimately know, for reasons you don't know, chooses to take some additional precaution because that makes him or her feel more comfortable - even if they're not the exact same precautions you decide are necessary for you - do you have a problem with that? Does it upset you? Make you feel the need to cast aspersions on or mock that person? Make judgements about that person and their state of mind based on a bunch of assumptions? Point to that person as a shining example of society trapped by fear?
Me, I just live my life and let them live theirs.
So I'll use your comment to reply to what 82 and Frenns was alluding to as well. I'm not really concerned about the extra precautions others are taking. Their business. I can tell you that there were folks on the beach in Maui last Spring wearing masks in a 15mph sea breeze. Not me; no skin off my nose (no pun intended.)
Quote from: pbiflyer on September 08, 2021, 09:37:40 AM
Yet as mentioned upstream, we likely all know people that have had break through cases. If your stats were correct, that likely would not be true, knowing people with break through cases would be rare.
I have coworkers, neighbors, and friends all with break through cases. Granted only one ended up in hospitalization (yah science!), but if your numbers were right, I would know an inordinately large percentage of the break through cases.
The problem with the statistics as presented is manifold. 1) It uses per day odds. 2) It reports an estimated average daily rate of infections, and then a crudely estimated value for highly vaccinated areas...it does not do he same for weakly vaccinated areas, where the odds are likely closer to 1/2000 or 1/3000.
Right now you have two sides manipulating the presentation of data to push their narrative. Neither is helpful.
That is why I would prefer to simply see reports of vaccine efficacy, and even better emphasize this simple fact.
If we put in a vaccine mandate, in a matter of months we would have less total cases each day, then we are currently seeing deaths per day. In a matter of months, we could reduce the COVID case counts down to a value that tracking them no longer makes any sense at all and it could be lumped in with influenza-like-illnesses in terms of tracking (I'd still argue we need to test for and track variants...much like the flu).
I believe it is a dereliction of duty that our leaders have not instituted a vaccine mandate already (note this can legally be done by governors today if they wanted to).
Quote from: jsglow on September 08, 2021, 09:39:43 AM
So I'll use your comment to reply to what 82 and Frenns was alluding to as well. I'm not really concerned about the extra precautions others are taking. Their business. I can tell you that there were folks on the beach in Maui last Spring wearing masks in a 15mph sea breeze. Not me; no skin off my nose (no pun intended.)
We agree. It's their business and doesn't affect us at all.
I just don't understand the need of some here to belittle someone for taking extra precautions, especially when they have no idea what's going on in that person's life that might make those precautions reasonable.
Quote from: forgetful on September 08, 2021, 09:30:19 AM
I would still argue that her personal actions are not illogical, as it is based on an individuals circumstances.
A mask mandate in such an environment (like the outdoor mandate in Oregon) would be illogical.
That's fine. I tried to frame my use of illogical with the assumptions that she is vaccinated and doesn't have serious underlying health problems. If those assumptions aren't in place, her mask wearing would not be illogical.
Saw a new one in Madison today. Guy on a motorcycle, solo, wearing a helmet with a full faceshield (clear). So he was protected from bugs and other road debris.
Also had a covid mask on under the faceshield. Illogical.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 08, 2021, 10:46:38 AM
Saw a new one in Madison today. Guy on a motorcycle, solo, wearing a helmet with a full faceshield (clear). So he was protected from bugs and other road debris.
Also had a covid mask on under the faceshield. Illogical.
come on zig...duh, you must not ride much-the helmit and face shield help keep the the mask from blowing off
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 08, 2021, 10:46:38 AM
Saw a new one in Madison today. Guy on a motorcycle, solo, wearing a helmet with a full faceshield (clear). So he was protected from bugs and other road debris.
Also had a covid mask on under the faceshield. Illogical.
Is it possible he just forgot to take it off when he first got on the bike, decided it wasn't worth the trouble as he started riding and will wait till he gets to his destination?
I've caught myself with a mask in my car because I leave the hospital with it on and my mind is focused on other things until after a few minutes in the car.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 08, 2021, 11:27:24 AM
Is it possible he just forgot to take it off when he first got on the bike, decided it wasn't worth the trouble as he started riding and will wait till he gets to his destination?
I've caught myself with a mask in my car because I leave the hospital with it on and my mind is focused on other things until after a few minutes in the car.
first thing off leaving the operatory-micorscopes, gloves followed by mask all the while my mind is focusing on many other things, like getting my fantasy baseball team ready for tonights games
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 08, 2021, 10:46:38 AM
Saw a new one in Madison today. Guy on a motorcycle, solo, wearing a helmet with a full faceshield (clear). So he was protected from bugs and other road debris.
Also had a covid mask on under the faceshield. Illogical.
This probably clarified it for ya Ziggy.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 08, 2021, 11:53:49 AM
first thing off leaving the operatory-micorscopes, gloves followed by mask all the while my mind is focusing on many other things, like getting my fantasy baseball team ready for tonights games
Thanks for the anecdote?
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 08, 2021, 11:27:24 AM
Is it possible he just forgot to take it off when he first got on the bike, decided it wasn't worth the trouble as he started riding and will wait till he gets to his destination?
I've caught myself with a mask in my car because I leave the hospital with it on and my mind is focused on other things until after a few minutes in the car.
It was 745 am.
I'm not surprised that you are a in car masker.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 08, 2021, 11:53:49 AM
first thing off leaving the operatory-micorscopes, gloves followed by mask all the while my mind is focusing on many other things, like getting my fantasy baseball team ready for tonights games
Two commas but otherwise a weak effort. Sad! 2 of 10
Quote from: jsglow on September 08, 2021, 06:52:26 AM
Fluff, I think what a lot of folks like you and I are trying to do is simply live our lives. I do find it interesting that there seems to be a segment in society that feels the need to comment on our doing that. No doubt there's a cottage industry out there that profits on the fear. That fear is probably legitimate for the morons that don't get vaxxed. This crap can actually kill them. But for us, nope, at least statistically speaking. Meaning that if we do end up being a breakthrough, it's gonna cost us a week on our couch. So yeah, we went to Summerfest last weekend. Living our lives.
I do as you do. Go about my business. Will be going to Summerfest this week. Only wear a mask when required.
There seems to be a big difference between you and Fluff, though. My guess is that you and Chick respect those who choose to wear masks or take more precautions than we do. He would rather criticize them.
We should criticize those who refuse to be vaccinated. They deserve it for their recklessness and the havoc they are spreading. But people taking over precautions for Covid is NOT a problem in this country.
Quote from: Jockey on September 08, 2021, 02:10:14 PM
We should criticize those who refuse to be vaccinated. They deserve it for their recklessness and the havoc they are spreading. But people taking over precautions for Covid is NOT a problem in this country.
Again, at the core of my initial angst or what have you, is not the person taking over precautions, its the messaging, whether from the media, their healthcare professional, the friend group, whatever, that pushes them to worry in such an illogical fashion. I for one feel like hope and optimism is critical in everyone moving forward and get annoyed at attempts to snuff it out, whether it be for clicks, or fear mongering, or simple paranoia. I'm not saying be a Pollyanna, but not every week needs to be a new story of how we're doomed or how this random medical professional feels we're still only 5% of the way to getting beyond COVID.
Everyone involved in this discussion is pro-vaccination and nobody is saying they aren't worthy of annoyance and this other group is "just as bad"
After 2 teachers died, masks are now required in a small-town Texas school district -- defying Abbott's idiotic, obviously-political, all-lives-don't-really-matter order (since put on hold by a judge). Would a mask mandate have saved the teachers' lives? We'll never know.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/texas-teachers-died-covid-connally/2021/09/07/2e9165b8-0ffc-11ec-882f-2dd15a067dc4_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F349d0c2%2F6138e30e9d2fda9bb7b949f3%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F47%2F74%2F6138e30e9d2fda9bb7b949f3
Meanwhile ...
Weekly pediatric coronavirus cases surpassed 250,000 for the first time since the start of the pandemic, according to the most recent data published by the American Academy of Pediatrics. Its data shows that more than a quarter of weekly reported coronavirus cases in the United States were among children for the week ending Sept. 2. And while most pediatric cases are not severe, nearly 2,400 children were hospitalized nationwide with covid-19 in the seven days ending Tuesday — more than ever before, according to data tracked by The Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/08/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F349d0be%2F6138e30e9d2fda9bb7b949f3%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F22%2F74%2F6138e30e9d2fda9bb7b949f3
OK ... so let's talk about "messaging." Was the Washington Post supposed to pretend that both of the above didn't happen -- that 2 teachers didn't die, prompting a school district in deep-red Texas to require masking, and that hundreds of thousands of kids haven't been infected with Covid, including 2400 who got it bad enough that they had to be hospitalized?
I don't think either of these articles is "sensationalized." They are dealing facts, and pretty important ones IMHO. If a reader chooses to freak out or if a reader chooses to ignore the facts, that's on each reader. The Post is doing its job.
I feel bad for the dead teachers' families, now mourning deaths that very possibly were preventable.
Quote from: Jockey on September 08, 2021, 02:10:14 PM
There seems to be a big difference between you and Fluff, though. My guess is that you and Chick respect those who choose to wear masks or take more precautions than we do. He would rather criticize them.
Who was I criticizing? I said if the woman Wags was talking about was vaccinated and didn't have any underlying health conditions, that she was being illogical because the chances of her catching Covid was slim. But I would hardly disrespect this person if she was my neighbor. I wouldn't care in the least if she wore her mask to the pool.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 08, 2021, 07:38:40 AM
I don't know who has the high ground in the race to claim aggrieved status. This recent circle around the toilet bowl all started by calling out someone wearing a mask in a pool.
The pandemic not being over yet and the vaccinated being able to and actually taking more risk can happen at the same time.
Just one bone to pick with the idea that the pandemic isn't over yet. That implies it will end at some point. It seems pretty clear to me that COVID will be endemic going forward and we're all going to have to learn to live with it.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 08, 2021, 12:40:00 PM
It was 745 am.
I'm not surprised that you are a in car masker.
Probably for the best. I'm much prettier with it on vs off
I disagree. I think we are in year 2 of a 5 year process and at the end there will be a medicine to render it irrelevant. Hopefully, society will actually take it.
Quote from: tower912 on September 08, 2021, 04:19:03 PM
I disagree. I think we are in year 2 of a 5 year process and at the end there will be a medicine to render it irrelevant. Hopefully, society will actually take it.
What do you think that 5 years looks likes? Periodic mask mandates? Masked air travel until then? Borders opening and closing to certain countries depending?
Legitimately curious.
Predict the variants versus the improved treatments. I think the variants are going to take the lead, but the science will make rapid gains. IMO, periodic border closures. Continued masking on public transportation and flights for at least two more years.
Booster shots on a regular basis.
One man's opinion.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 08, 2021, 03:19:29 PM
Who was I criticizing? I said if the woman Wags was talking about was vaccinated and didn't have any underlying health conditions, that she was being illogical because the chances of her catching Covid was slim. But I would hardly disrespect this person if she was my neighbor. I wouldn't care in the least if she wore her mask to the pool.
Just to play Devil's Advocate, is it illogical to wear a seat belt since the chances of needing it are exceedingly slim?
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 08, 2021, 05:16:15 PM
Just to play Devil's Advocate, is it illogical to wear a seat belt since the chances of needing it are exceedingly slim?
That analogy doesn't work though. If COVID was injury in a car wreck, the vaccine would be the seatbelt. It's more akin to wearing a seatbelt but also only driving on deserted roads in dry conditions during the day.
I view it more like my old landlord in Chicago who insisted we had flood insurance, in addition to our renters insurance and all his homeowners insurance...because I had a 20 gallon aquarium and it might shatter
Quote from: JWags85 on September 08, 2021, 05:38:27 PM
I view it more like my old landlord in Chicago who insisted we had flood insurance, in addition to our renters insurance and all his homeowners insurance...because I had a 20 gallon aquarium and it might shatter
Yet another thing posted as something that can never happen that started a fire I have been to.
Quote from: tower912 on September 08, 2021, 06:01:08 PM
Yet another thing posted as something that can never happen that started a fire I have been to.
The shattered aquarium caused a fire and the flood insurance paid out?
I don't mean to be argumentative tower but what Wags said was that flood insurance for a fish tank feels like overkill. I actually thought his vaccine=seatbelt analogy was pretty spot on.
I'm confident there isn't a single horrible situation you haven't come across. I'm sure seeing the crap you see is tough, especially when way too much of it is directly tied to stupid. I think that everyone here agrees that being unvaxxed is like not wearing a seatbelt.... stupid. But I still drive my car in the rain and try to be careful when I do it. A risk I take, I suppose.
I also think Wags makes a solid point about the societal dangers of misinformation and those that disseminate it, something we all should oppose.
Quote from: jsglow on September 08, 2021, 06:26:09 PM
I don't mean to be argumentative tower but what Wags said was that flood insurance for a fish tank feels like overkill. I actually thought his vaccine=seatbelt analogy was pretty spot on.
I'm confident there isn't a single horrible situation you haven't come across. I'm sure seeing the crap you see is tough, especially when way too much of it is directly tied to stupid. I think that everyone here agrees that being unvaxxed is like not wearing a seatbelt.... stupid. But I still drive my car in the rain and try to be careful when I do it. A risk I take, I suppose.
I also think Wags makes a solid point about the societal dangers of misinformation and those that disseminate it, something we all should oppose.
Thank you. That was my meaning. It's not an impossibility, but it's not in any way common or remotely even regular. Between my father and I, there is 50 years of aquarium keeping, over 20 different tanks and sizes, and the worst we ever had was a leak over a long weekend that drained a bit and soaked some carpet. A friend was a super hobbyist who always had 5-10 home tanks and ran a speciality fish store for 10+ years. I remember asking him about it and he chuckled and said the only time he'd seen it happen was in Deuce Bigalow.
If we base our life around the absolute worst case super rare SNAFUs, it becomes a terrifying real life Final Destination
It isn't common. But it isn't impossible. Your example made me laugh, that's all.
Quote from: tower912 on September 08, 2021, 07:18:48 PM
It isn't common. But it isn't impossible. Your example made me laugh, that's all.
We've traded some barbs recently, so I'll take laughter ;D
Looks like a picked a good weekend for a vacation.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 08, 2021, 07:33:46 PM
We've traded some barbs recently, so I'll take laughter ;D
Nuthin but luv, wags
Most NFL fans regularly attending games want stadium COVID vaccine mandate, poll says
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article254075713.html?
This week marks the return of regular-season football, and NFL team owners are itching to get fans back in stadium seats to recover from the financial beating the league took last year thanks to COVID-19.
But how do fans feel? Especially the ones who regularly attend games and scream along with thousands of other people in close proximity.
In a new poll conducted by Morning Consult, 54% of those who commonly attend games "would me more interested in going to a game this season if all fans were required to present proof of vaccination against COVID-19."
Nineteen percent of those regular attendees said they would be less interested while 27% said they'd be neither more nor less interested.
According to Morning Consult, the poll was conducted Aug. 30-Sept. 2, 2021, among a sample of 2,200 adults based on gender, educational attainment, age, race and region.
Despite the response, only a handful of NFL teams will require vaccination documents to be presented at the stadium. On Tuesday, the Seattle Seahawks joined the Las Vegas Raiders and New Orleans Saints as teams requiring proof of full vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test within a 72-hour window prior to the start of the game, Yahoo Sports reported.
My wife and I usually go to 2-3 Panthers games a year. (Obviously none last season.) She would only agree to go this season with a vaccine mandate, but the Panthers don't have one.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on September 08, 2021, 03:39:09 PM
Just one bone to pick with the idea that the pandemic isn't over yet. That implies it will end at some point. It seems pretty clear to me that COVID will be endemic going forward and we're all going to have to learn to live with it.
Honestly I can't name a pandemic that lasts for ever. Either we die, our bodies adapt to make it less severe or we chemically treat it, right?. Maybe there is a scenario that it becomes endemic and is still filling up ICUs every year but my guess is if it is that severe something else will change.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v1
Not peer reviewed yet but this was discussed recently on scoop and it seems the problem might be more prevalent then originally thought.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 08, 2021, 10:47:15 PM
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v1
Not peer reviewed yet but this was discussed recently on scoop and it seems the problem might be more prevalent then originally thought.
I'm sure someone with greater knowledge of these things can explain this, but this doesn't seem to be much of an apples-to-apples comparison.
They're comparing reported cases of myocarditis (perhaps self-reported), without necessarily medical confirmation and with no regards to severity, against only the most severe confirmed cases of COVID, i.e. those that sent an otherwise healthy child to the hospital.
As I understand it - and please correct me if I'm wrong - most cases of myocarditis are mild and clear up on their own or with antibiotics. Hospitalization and long-term illness is rare.
So why would any and all cases of myocarditis be comparable to only the worst cases of COVID?
Studying whether there's an elevated risk of myocarditis post-vaccination seems worthwhile, but I do wonder if some of the choices here were made to produce a desired result.
Rut roh....
https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/ivermectin-causes-sterilization-in-85-percent-of-men-study-finds/
Quote from: warriorchick on September 09, 2021, 07:54:41 AM
Rut roh....
https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/ivermectin-causes-sterilization-in-85-percent-of-men-study-finds/
It might be best to cut off the flow of that gene pool.
Ironies abound.
And, one can only hope.
Probably not enough independent verification from reputable sources. Alas.
A little research shows the statement comes from a poorly done study from 10 years ago. Sadly, it has no more validity than the discredited Egyptian study.
So, good for a chuckle, but nowhere near definitive.
So, instead of poking fun at these people, we should be encouraging them?
I know I will now be recommending it to my republican friends.
Vaccine mandates for all Fed workers AND Fed contractors.
About time. Don't be afraid to terminate the slackers.
Quote from: warriorchick on September 09, 2021, 07:54:41 AM
Rut roh....
https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/ivermectin-causes-sterilization-in-85-percent-of-men-study-finds/
Debunked, per Snopes, as not credible.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ivermectin-sterility-in-men/
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 09, 2021, 10:35:57 AM
Debunked, per Snopes, as not credible.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ivermectin-sterility-in-men/
If Snopes said that, it will probably end up being true.
Quote from: Jockey on September 09, 2021, 09:04:50 AM
Vaccine mandates for all Fed workers AND Fed contractors.
About time. Don't be afraid to terminate the slackers.
Is that all? I was reading some rumors there will be a lot more restrictions than that. Guess we will find out when Biden gives his speech this afternoon.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 09, 2021, 10:35:57 AM
Debunked, per Snopes, as not credible.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ivermectin-sterility-in-men/
snopes is about as credible as a menstruating man
careful what you wish for re:vaccine mandates. can health care afford to lose 10% of it's staff? for the feds however, there's room for a lot more
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 09, 2021, 10:45:45 AM
Is that all? I was reading some rumors there will be a lot more restrictions than that. Guess we will find out when Biden gives his speech this afternoon.
I'm not sure there is a lot more Biden can do. Most power in regards to vaccine mandates, and emergency powers in a situation like this fall to the governors.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 09, 2021, 10:51:20 AM
snopes is about as credible as a menstruating man
I was unaware that the right wing disliked snopes. Is there a specific reason, or is just getting all your lies debunked that bothers you?
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 09, 2021, 11:32:40 AM
I was unaware that the right wing disliked snopes. Is there a specific reason, or is just getting all your lies debunked that bothers you?
Snopes isn't the standard for the best fact checking anymore apparently. I got called out for it awhile back. That being said fact checking is better than not fact checking.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 09, 2021, 11:46:47 AM
Snopes isn't the standard for the best fact checking anymore apparently. I got called out for it awhile back. That being said fact checking is better than not fact checking.
They were recently caught in a lie when they went to great lengths to cover up the fact Biden checked his watch many times during the service for the fallen military members. Essentially calling the families and witnesses liars. That probably rubbed some the wrong way.
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 09, 2021, 12:10:54 PM
They were recently caught in a lie when they went to great lengths to cover up the fact Biden checked his watch many times during the service for the fallen military members. Essentially calling the families and witnesses liars. That probably rubbed some the wrong way.
Jockey fact check:
You are lying.
Fun story about vaccines. Was in Vegas the beginning of the month for a trade show. Pair of my good friends in the industry, married couple, are unvaccinated cause they plan to try for a baby this fall (I know doctors have said otherwise, I've said as much cause my wife waffled for a bit for the same reason, it's silly, and they are otherwise reasonable intelligent and respectful people). They went to the same show with his business partner and his wife as well as another couple, all 4 are vaccinated. Vegas is mask mandated but not bars and restaurants.
2 days after returning, she tested positive. Yesterday, a week after returning, he has a fever and chills, almost assuredly is positive as well. The vaccinated 4 are all just fine and have had a pair of negative tests each.
Get poked, it works
Quote from: JWags85 on September 09, 2021, 12:52:18 PM
Fun story about vaccines. Was in Vegas the beginning of the month for a trade show. Pair of my good friends in the industry, married couple, are unvaccinated cause they plan to try for a baby this fall (I know doctors have said otherwise, I've said as much cause my wife waffled for a bit for the same reason, it's silly, and they are otherwise reasonable intelligent and respectful people). They went to the same show with his business partner and his wife as well as another couple, all 4 are vaccinated. Vegas is mask mandated but not bars and restaurants.
2 days after returning, she tested positive. Yesterday, a week after returning, he has a fever and chills, almost assuredly is positive as well. The vaccinated 4 are all just fine and have had a pair of negative tests each.
Get poked, it works
He shoulda poked her sooner, hey?
Quote from: JWags85 on September 09, 2021, 12:52:18 PM
Fun story about vaccines. Was in Vegas the beginning of the month for a trade show. Pair of my good friends in the industry, married couple, are unvaccinated cause they plan to try for a baby this fall (I know doctors have said otherwise, I've said as much cause my wife waffled for a bit for the same reason, it's silly, and they are otherwise reasonable intelligent and respectful people). They went to the same show with his business partner and his wife as well as another couple, all 4 are vaccinated. Vegas is mask mandated but not bars and restaurants.
2 days after returning, she tested positive. Yesterday, a week after returning, he has a fever and chills, almost assuredly is positive as well. The vaccinated 4 are all just fine and have had a pair of negative tests each.
Get poked, it works
Funny - my boss has a friend who was in Vegas last week or the week before and is vaccinated and came down with COVID. But the good news he just had some coughing and nothing else. Guess the vaccine works.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 09, 2021, 12:52:18 PM
Fun story about vaccines. Was in Vegas the beginning of the month for a trade show. Pair of my good friends in the industry, married couple, are unvaccinated cause they plan to try for a baby this fall (I know doctors have said otherwise, I've said as much cause my wife waffled for a bit for the same reason, it's silly, and they are otherwise reasonable intelligent and respectful people). They went to the same show with his business partner and his wife as well as another couple, all 4 are vaccinated. Vegas is mask mandated but not bars and restaurants.
2 days after returning, she tested positive. Yesterday, a week after returning, he has a fever and chills, almost assuredly is positive as well. The vaccinated 4 are all just fine and have had a pair of negative tests each.
Get poked, it works
Have they been dewormed? Seems far more reasonable than crazy talk like "get poked, it works." ;D
Quote from: forgetful on September 09, 2021, 11:19:40 AM
I'm not sure there is a lot more Biden can do. Most power in regards to vaccine mandates, and emergency powers in a situation like this fall to the governors.
Woah - mandate for vaccination or weekly testing for all employers with more than 100 employees. If there is any teeth on that, its a big deal.
Also glad to see the expanded testing. I found out first hand that testing is kind of hard again. Rapid tests are sold out everywhere, and the drugstores only get like a B- from me in terms of how easy/hard it is to get a PCR. I kind of think there's no reason to not be able to stumble backward into a rapid test at this point.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 09, 2021, 03:09:51 PM
Woah - mandate for vaccination or weekly testing for all employers with more than 100 employees. If there is any teeth on that, its a big deal.
Yeah I have a feeling this isn't holding up in court.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 09, 2021, 03:11:55 PM
Yeah I have a feeling this isn't holding up in court.
Also wonder what the enforcement of this looks like? Why just large businesses?
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 09, 2021, 03:09:51 PM
Woah - mandate for vaccination or weekly testing for all employers with more than 100 employees. If there is any teeth on that, its a big deal.
Also glad to see the expanded testing. I found out first hand that testing is kind of hard again. Rapid tests are sold out everywhere, and the drugstores only get like a B- from me in terms of how easy/hard it is to get a PCR. I kind of think there's no reason to not be able to stumble backward into a rapid test at this point.
...more than 100 employees working for or with the federal government. Which is still 100 million people, but before the dentist with 101 employees grabs his pitchfork, the context.
Quote from: Retire0 on September 09, 2021, 03:18:23 PM
...more than 100 employees working for or with the federal government. Which is still 100 million people, but before the dentist with 101 employees grabs his pitchfork, the context.
He would just let the one with the shaved head go.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 09, 2021, 11:32:40 AM
I was unaware that the right wing disliked snopes. Is there a specific reason, or is just getting all your lies debunked that bothers you?
you know pot is still illegal in wisconsin right? maybe one of the few things your snopesy web site might have right. what do they say about santa claus and the easter bunny?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 09, 2021, 03:54:24 PM
you know pot is still illegal in wisconsin right? maybe one of the few things your snopesy web site might have right. what do they say about santa claus and the easter bunny?
8 of 10. Good effort on this one. A Joy Behar drop would have upped it.
In Colorado, the head of Jefferson County Public Health pulled the agency's three vaccination vans off the road over Labor Day weekend after staffers were jeered at and harassed by the usual suspects. Via the Denver Post:
JCPH Executive Director Dawn Comstock in an interview late Tuesday said that on Saturday, staff manning a mobile vaccine clinic in Gilpin County, which contracts with Jeffco for health services, were yelled at and threatened by passing motorists.
One driver, she said, ran over and destroyed temporary signs the clinic had put up around its vaccine tent. That same day, someone threw unidentified liquid at a public health nurse who was working a different mobile clinic stationed in front of a Jefferson County restaurant, Comstock said.
"Additional cars drove by screaming obscenities at vaccine staff and throwing garbage at them," she said. "I will not put the hard-working public health staff in harm's way."
Comstock said she will only allow the vans to set up at places with security, and is asking state health officials about getting funding to hire their own security.
These inbred monsters just never quit.
Quote from: Retire0 on September 09, 2021, 03:18:23 PM
...more than 100 employees working for or with the federal government. Which is still 100 million people, but before the dentist with 101 employees grabs his pitchfork, the context.
My bad, I jumped the gun based on a skim of the CNN article. Partially in my defense it just says:
QuoteThe President will direct the Labor Department to require all businesses with 100 or more employees ensure their workers are either vaccinated or tested once a week. Companies could face thousands of dollars in fines per employee if they don't comply.
but the connection to the federal government makes more sense in terms of it holding up.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 09, 2021, 03:11:55 PM
Yeah I have a feeling this isn't holding up in court.
I'm not sure. I think the mandate to businesses is clever. It is within the legal authority of the Labor Department to enact rules to maintain the safety and welfare of employees.
Not having a testing policy, and/or vaccination is putting the safety and welfare of employees at risk. So it could hold.
And vaccine mandates date back to George Washington. We won the revolutionary war in part due to vaccine mandates, so there is some lengthy history/support for the idea.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 09, 2021, 04:06:11 PM
My bad, I jumped the gun based on a skim of the CNN article. Partially in my defense it just says:
but the connection to the federal government makes more sense in terms of it holding up.
I don't think retired is accurate. He is asking OSHA to mandate vaccinations or weekly testing for employers with 100 or more employees. He is also requiring vaccination for all federal employees and contractors or they will face disciplinary action up to and including termination.
I'm dusting off old memories, but I think that there are different rules/laws for different sized companies. FMLA type laws. I'm sure someone will know. But I'm guessing that the 100 EE threshold is tied to some kind of labor/workplace oversight.
ETA: looks like this is under OSHA.
Wow. Any company, OSHA enforced. Love it.
6 months late. But, he tried the carrot first, assuming most people were rational and would act in their enlightened self interest.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jacobbogage/status/1436077950936440839
Everyone who isn't vaccinated should be thrown in jail. Ugh!
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 09, 2021, 03:54:24 PM
what do they say about santa claus and the easter bunny?
Per snopes, they are as real as HCQ and ivermectin are as COVID treatments.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on September 09, 2021, 05:42:10 PM
Everyone who isn't vaccinated should be thrown in jail. Ugh!
Nah, just conform to this workplace requirement just like every other workplace requirement.
Wee gonna expand gubment bye creatin' da covid poolice, hey?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 09, 2021, 04:35:13 PM
I'm dusting off old memories, but I think that there are different rules/laws for different sized companies. FMLA type laws. I'm sure someone will know. But I'm guessing that the 100 EE threshold is tied to some kind of labor/workplace oversight.
ETA: looks like this is under OSHA.
OSHA came in to our hospital a couple months ago to restart screening protocols. After all local/state health departments said it was okay to stop. And, being OSHA, this isn't to protect guests/patients, it's to protect the workers of the hospital.
Why did they sit on their hands for 18 months?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 06:19:28 PM
Wee gonna expand gubment bye creatin' da covid poolice, hey?
No, Mexico is going to take care of it
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 06:19:28 PM
Wee gonna expand gubment bye creatin' da covid poolice, hey?
Probably more useful than Space Force.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 06:19:28 PM
Wee gonna expand gubment bye creatin' da covid poolice, hey?
the comatose dude with the ice cream cone and brain freeze(mutually exclusive btw) says this probably ain't going to hold up in court...then goes ahead and mandates it anyway. and #45 was the tyrant?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 09, 2021, 07:13:43 PM
the comatose dude with the ice cream cone and brain freeze(mutually exclusive btw) says this probably ain't going to hold up in court...then goes ahead and mandates it anyway. and #45 was the tyrant?
9 of 10, more electric work. No air quotes stops you short of a 10
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 09, 2021, 07:18:56 PM
9 of 10, more electric work. No air quotes stops you short of a 10
I was going to argue that you grade too easy but then I realized he doesn't know what the definition of a tyrant is so I can see the 9.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 09, 2021, 07:13:43 PM
the comatose dude with the ice cream cone and brain freeze(mutually exclusive btw) says this probably ain't going to hold up in court...then goes ahead and mandates it anyway. and #45 was the tyrant?
Ya gotta 'cuse Full Diaper 'cuz, you know, he's got stutterin' issues, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 07:39:21 PM
Ya gotta 'cuse Full Diaper 'cuz, you know, he's got stutterin' issues, aina?
😂😂😂
@FrankLuntz: Swing-state poll of employer vax mandates
𝗔𝗿𝗶𝘇𝗼𝗻𝗮
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32
𝗚𝗲𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 63%
• Oppose: 37
𝗠𝗶𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗻
• Favor: 61%
• Oppose: 39
𝗣𝗲𝗻𝗻𝘀𝘆𝗹𝘃𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 64%
• Oppose: 36
𝗪𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗻
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32 https://twitter.com/steveschale/status/1436060909470879749
Quote from: Pakuni on September 09, 2021, 08:40:21 PM
@FrankLuntz: Swing-state poll of employer vax mandates
𝗔𝗿𝗶𝘇𝗼𝗻𝗮
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32
𝗚𝗲𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 63%
• Oppose: 37
𝗠𝗶𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗻
• Favor: 61%
• Oppose: 39
𝗣𝗲𝗻𝗻𝘀𝘆𝗹𝘃𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 64%
• Oppose: 36
𝗪𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗻
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32 https://twitter.com/steveschale/status/1436060909470879749
Now we know why Rs are against it. They are on the wrong side of every issue, but through gerrymandering and minority rule are able to do what they want. That, and a complete lack of a killer instinct by Ds.
Vaccines, abortion, guns, immigration, gov't overthrow, infrastructure - wrong side of everything
Quote from: Pakuni on September 09, 2021, 08:40:21 PM
@FrankLuntz: Swing-state poll of employer vax mandates
𝗔𝗿𝗶𝘇𝗼𝗻𝗮
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32
𝗚𝗲𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 63%
• Oppose: 37
𝗠𝗶𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗻
• Favor: 61%
• Oppose: 39
𝗣𝗲𝗻𝗻𝘀𝘆𝗹𝘃𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 64%
• Oppose: 36
𝗪𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗻
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32 https://twitter.com/steveschale/status/1436060909470879749
The poll was for whether employers should mandate the vaccine and not whether the federal government should require employers to mandate the vaccine. Big difference.
I work remotely and so does the rest of my team who is scattered throughout the country, so it makes no sense for vaccines to be mandated by my company (100+ employees). It would make sense if I needed to be physically present and interact with and serve customers. Case by case basis. No one size fits all.
Although, I do think the mandates will be effective and many more corporate simps will end up vaccinated as a result.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 09, 2021, 07:18:56 PM
9 of 10, more electric work. No air quotes stops you short of a 10
Rounding back into form after a short slump. Encouraging.
I don't see the argument that this is unconstitutional. Vaccine mandates by the federal government date back to George Washington. And in this case it is a rule regulated by OSHA for worker health and safety. Not sure how one can say that isn't within the scope of their authority.
One could argue that the new rule has to go through the normal process, but Trump repeatedly violated those pathways under the guise of "emergency powers," and they held, so seems like that card was already played.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 06:19:28 PM
Wee gonna expand gubment bye creatin' da covid poolice, hey?
Just take a page from Texas' book and deputize Covid Vigilantes.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 07:39:21 PM
he's got stutterin' issues, aina?
stutterers r stoopid, nu?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 07:39:21 PM
Ya gotta 'cuse Full Diaper 'cuz, you know, he's got stutterin' issues, aina?
Classy. Do you point and giggle when you see someone in a wheelchair?
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 09, 2021, 10:02:42 PM
The poll was for whether employers should mandate the vaccine and not whether the federal government should require employers to mandate the vaccine. Big difference.
Not really. I think most people are growing weary of the anti-vaxxers ramping everything back up again, and if it takes a government mandate via OSHA, then that's what it takes.
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 09, 2021, 10:02:42 PM
I work remotely and so does the rest of my team who is scattered throughout the country, so it makes no sense for vaccines to be mandated by my company (100+ employees). It would make sense if I needed to be physically present and interact with and serve customers. Case by case basis. No one size fits all.
Although, I do think the mandates will be effective and many more corporate simps will end up vaccinated as a result.
Good.
Quote from: Jockey on September 09, 2021, 11:24:03 PM
Classy. Do you point and giggle when you see someone in a wheelchair?
Jockey calling someone out for being classless...
(http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv178/Blondin07/sproing.gif)
You literally said that you don't care if people die.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 09, 2021, 07:39:21 PM
Ya gotta 'cuse Full Diaper 'cuz, you know, he's got stutterin' issues, aina?
At least he can speak and write English. Unlike certain morons........
At this point I am hopeful that the actions of independent companies, universities, health care settings and the push by govt yesterday will give people who have developed an entrenched position against the vaccine the air cover to go get it. I bet that there are people now that are more willing but peer pressure is having a negative impact and causing illogical entrenched positions. They have a choice of course....but the consequences of their choice are becoming more negative.
Also this is the form of illogical choice that is harmful to others -- it fills our hospitals, furthers the pandemic and impacts the freedom of those who stepped up and got the vaccine. We have a right to a safe workplace and many of us don't want to be around unvaccinated people that have a higher likelihood of spreading a disease that is very common and prevalent in the US and the world.
Quote from: forgetful on September 09, 2021, 11:04:07 PM
I don't see the argument that this is unconstitutional. Vaccine mandates by the federal government date back to George Washington. And in this case it is a rule regulated by OSHA for worker health and safety. Not sure how one can say that isn't within the scope of their authority.
One could argue that the new rule has to go through the normal process, but Trump repeatedly violated those pathways under the guise of "emergency powers," and they held, so seems like that card was already played.
Even if it is eventually deemed unconstitutional, it most certainly give legal cover to a bunch of businesses that are concerned about the legality of vaccine mandates.
46 got a staff that mirrors his intellect. he just highlighted the real reason for putting OSHA as the enforcer. DOH!!
the ultimate "reach around" for the mandate more fodder for the courts to shoot this down as they already know it. they are just waiting for the inevitable to once again try to politicize the courts, in their favor or not. just another broken promise
Klain retweeted MSNBC's Stephanie Ruhle, who posted, "OSHA doing this vaxx mandate as an emergency workplace safety rule is the ultimate work-around for the Federal govt to require vaccinations."
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 10, 2021, 08:12:58 AM
Klain retweeted MSNBC's Stephanie Ruhle, who posted, "OSHA doing this vaxx mandate as an emergency workplace safety rule is the ultimate work-around for the Federal govt to require vaccinations."
Great! Hope it works.
My company released a policy similar to this about a week ago. Im going to guess there was some advisement that the overall mandate was coming.
How does this impact remote workers? Is the vaccine or testing strictly for on-site or all employees?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 10, 2021, 07:46:39 AM
Jockey calling someone out for being classless...
(http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv178/Blondin07/sproing.gif)
You literally said that you don't care if people die.
Actually, that is not what I said, Chico.
Quote from: pbiflyer on September 10, 2021, 07:51:22 AM
At least he can speak and write English. Unlike certain morons........
Amazin' how effective Aricept is, aina?
Quote from: Jockey on September 10, 2021, 08:48:11 AM
Actually, that is not what I said, Chico.
Really?
Quote from: Jockey on July 05, 2021, 11:34:55 AM
I think saying that we don't care if the unvaccinated live or die is a statement that would be supported by many.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1436320331510263828
Scotty G 2024 has my vote!! Perfect analysis, this "mandate" will have little to no affect on current delta surge. By the time it's ready to be enforced his best estimate was fall of 2022 and at current new daily vaccination rate we should be 85-90% vaccinated at that point (adults at least).
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 10, 2021, 09:15:53 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1436320331510263828
Scotty G 2024 has my vote!! Perfect analysis, this "mandate" will have little to no affect on current delta surge. By the time it's ready to be enforced his best estimate was fall of 2022 and at current new daily vaccination rate we should be 85-90% vaccinated at that point (adults at least).
With any luck it will cluster antivaxxers into public protests where they will be vulnerable to vaccine-administration-by-dart-gun, which ought to be phase 2 of the plan.
Quote from: jficke13 on September 10, 2021, 09:17:46 AM
With any luck it will cluster antivaxxers into public protests where they will be vulnerable to vaccine-administration-by-dart-gun, which ought to be phase 2 of the plan.
Haha, move straight out of Ace Ventura!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 10, 2021, 09:21:48 AM
Haha, move straight out of Ace Ventura!
I was picturing a scene from a movie that did not suck, namely Old School.
Quote from: jficke13 on September 10, 2021, 09:39:15 AM
I was picturing a scene from a movie that did not suck, namely Old School.
Fighting words!! While old school is undoubtedly better....Ace Ventura did not suck, that's a hill I'll die on!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 10, 2021, 10:01:24 AM
Fighting words!! While old school is undoubtedly better....Ace Ventura did not suck, that's a hill I'll die on!
I agree with this analysis.
Quote from: jficke13 on September 10, 2021, 09:17:46 AM
With any luck it will cluster antivaxxers into public protests where they will be vulnerable to vaccine-administration-by-dart-gun, which ought to be phase 2 of the plan.
If Biden was smart, he'd advertise free HCQ/ivermectin cocktail shots at your local pharmacy. Boom bait and switch and vaccines for all. If only we had true innovative leadership
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 10, 2021, 09:15:53 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1436320331510263828
Scotty G 2024 has my vote!! Perfect analysis, this "mandate" will have little to no affect on current delta surge. By the time it's ready to be enforced his best estimate was fall of 2022 and at current new daily vaccination rate we should be 85-90% vaccinated at that point (adults at least).
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the current new daily vaccination rate would continue linearly to that point.
Instead of cash, free ivermectin with your vaccine shot.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 10, 2021, 10:39:39 AM
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the current new daily vaccination rate would continue linearly to that point.
Take that up with Scott, his words not mine.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 10, 2021, 10:01:24 AM
Fighting words!! While old school is undoubtedly better....Ace Ventura did not suck, that's a hill I'll die on!
Eh, I find Jim Carrey to be very not funny at all. Every comedy he's ever been in has essentially rolled the ball to the middle of the court, given him the directive of "make funny faces, talk weird, and do the Jim-Carrey-Physical-Comedy-Routine (tm)" and... that's it. If that formula doesn't do it for you like it doesn't do it for me, there's nothing else to salvage from any of his movies.
Also, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind was terrible, transparent from minute 5, shallow, and that people love and wax poetic about it absolutely baffles me.
Quote from: jficke13 on September 10, 2021, 10:54:09 AM
Also, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind was terrible, transparent from minute 5, shallow, and that people love and wax poetic about it absolutely baffles me.
Thank you, that movie was mediocre. The only other "romance" movie that is raved about that I dislike more is 500 Days of Summer. F that film
Quote from: jficke13 on September 10, 2021, 10:54:09 AM
Eh, I find Jim Carrey to be very not funny at all. Every comedy he's ever been in has essentially rolled the ball to the middle of the court, given him the directive of "make funny faces, talk weird, and do the Jim-Carrey-Physical-Comedy-Routine (tm)" and... that's it. If that formula doesn't do it for you like it doesn't do it for me, there's nothing else to salvage from any of his movies.
Also, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind was terrible, transparent from minute 5, shallow, and that people love and wax poetic about it absolutely baffles me.
I hate Jim Carrey and his "humor" too
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 10, 2021, 11:33:48 AM
I hate Jim Carrey and his "humor" too
Very talented guy, but it's almost slapstick. It never appealed to me.
Truman Show was his best work. Like Stranger than Fiction for Ferrell.
Quote from: tower912 on September 10, 2021, 01:54:38 PM
Truman Show was his best work. Like Stranger than Fiction for Ferrell.
I agree it's fantastic, though if we're going dramatic there's a decent argument for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.
Personally I've outgrown some of his earlier slapstick stuff but still enjoy Fun with Dick & Jane, Yes Man, and Bruce Almighty that are entertaining but not slapstick like Liar Liar, Cable Guy, or Ace Venture
Quote from: tower912 on September 10, 2021, 01:54:38 PM
Truman Show was his best work. Like Stranger than Fiction for Ferrell.
I believe you mean after "The Other Guys"
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 10, 2021, 11:33:48 AM
I hate Jim Carrey and his "humor" too
he might be a better painter than hunter, but for some weird reason, hunter's stuff seems to be going like "hotcakes" for a lot more money
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 10, 2021, 03:43:09 PM
he might be a better painter than hunter, but for some weird reason, hunter's stuff seems to be going like "hotcakes" for a lot more money
9 of 10. Air quotes, bringing Hunter Biden into it and hinting at a conspiracy theory. Not enough misspelling for a 10.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 10, 2021, 10:39:39 AM
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the current new daily vaccination rate would continue linearly to that point.
Gottleib's problem is that when he deviates from pure science discussions, to policy his logic is clouded by politics and he ends up making ridiculous statements at times. He did so here.
I can say this, because every time you point a finger at someone there are three pointing back at you. We all have our faults once personal convictions and politics get involved. He fell off the wagon here...I've done the same before.
Nice to know that some governors care more about making political statements than they do about protecting their residents from a deadly, highly contagious virus.
From The AP:
President Joe Biden's sweeping new vaccine requirements have Republican governors threatening lawsuits. His unapologetic response: "Have at it."
The administration is gearing up for another major clash between federal and state rule. But while many details about the rules remain unknown, Biden appears to be on firm legal ground to issue the directive in the name of protecting employee safety, according to several experts interviewed by The Associated Press.
"My bet is that with respect to that statutory authority, they're on pretty strong footing given the evidence strongly suggesting . the degree of risk that (unvaccinated individuals) pose, not only to themselves but also unto others," said University of Connecticut law professor Sachin Pandya.
Republicans swiftly denounced the mandate that could impact 100 million Americans as government overreach and vowed to sue, and private employers who resist the requirements may do so as well. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott called it an "assault on private businesses" while Gov. Henry McMaster promised to "fight them to the gates of hell to protect the liberty and livelihood of every South Carolinian."
The White House is gearing up for legal challenges and believes that even if some of the mandates are tossed out, millions of Americans will get a shot because of the new requirements – saving lives and preventing the spread of the virus.
The stick is working after the carrot's limits were reached ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/us/politics/military-veterans-coronavirus-mandate.html?action=click&campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210912&instance_id=40234&module=RelatedLinks&nl=the-morning&pgtype=Article®i_id=108420427&segment_id=68744&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
WASHINGTON — President Biden's new coronavirus vaccination mandates have prompted some backlash, but the two federal departments that already require vaccinations say their actions are doing what they intended: getting more shots in arms.
Since the Pentagon announced last month that active-duty military personnel would be required to be vaccinated, the percentage of service members with at least one shot has risen to 83 percent from 76 percent, according to Defense Department data.
At the Department of Veterans Affairs, which issued a vaccine mandate for its 115,000 frontline health care workers seven weeks ago, 82 percent of those employees are now fully vaccinated, up from 77 percent, and the number of shots it has given to all of its workers has more than doubled since early July, said Terrence Hayes, a spokesman for the department.
Vaccine mandates in the military started with George Washington. Can't get much more American/founders intent/OG than that.
Meanwhile in the state where the governor touts treatment over vaccines:
Florida breaks COVID-19 deaths record fourth week in a row
The state added 2,448 people to its death toll.
The state Health Department continues to refuse to publish death tallies in each county.
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/2021/09/10/covid-19-deaths-record-broken-fourth-week-row-infections-slow/8281205002/
Good news is that at this point, he's killing off his own base.
Quote from: tower912 on September 12, 2021, 10:09:58 AM
Vaccine mandates in the military started with George Washington. Can't get much more American/founders intent/OG than that.
George was a RINO who hated America.
American Exceptionalism?
@peterbakernyt: With just 62% of Americans having received at least one vaccine shot, the United States has now fallen to last place among the G7 wealthiest democracies. @AlyssaLukpat https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/11/world/asia/us-vaccination-rate-low.html
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/vPp4FXfTK5yfgvsnycNJFw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTYxOS4zNTQ4Mzg3MDk2Nzc0/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/xCAZVsa1b.XfegjCB0kk8A--~B/aD00MDA7dz02MjA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/thewrap.com/ed17275e3685188456051ec107d0c17f)
Quote from: Pakuni on September 12, 2021, 02:50:58 PM
American Exceptionalism?
@peterbakernyt: With just 62% of Americans having received at least one vaccine shot, the United States has now fallen to last place among the G7 wealthiest democracies. @AlyssaLukpat https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/11/world/asia/us-vaccination-rate-low.html
While I'm not excusing anything, but its a bit splitting hairs. US is at 62-63%. Germany is at 66%. Japan is at like 62-63%. US adult vax rate is I believe 75% with at least one shot? Given the US has 4x or more the population of any of the G7 countries in front of them, its still hell of a lot of shots in arms.
While there isn't much excuse for that 62% not be closer to 80%, these reports make it seem like the US is 20% behind every other developed nation with less than half the population vaxxed
Quote from: JWags85 on September 12, 2021, 03:31:01 PM
While I'm not excusing anything, but its a bit splitting hairs. US is at 62-63%. Germany is at 66%. Japan is at like 62-63%. US adult vax rate is I believe 75% with at least one shot? Given the US has 4x or more the population of any of the G7 countries in front of them, its still hell of a lot of shots in arms.
While there isn't much excuse for that 62% not be closer to 80%, these reports make it seem like the US is 20% behind every other developed nation with less than half the population vaxxed
Japan started late and just rocketed by us (like this week). So far their vaccination curve isnt slowing.
Also that is first dose what you are quoting. We are in the 50's all in.
You were dismissing Canada a few weeks ago for the same reason -- only being a few points ahead of us (first dose) now they are close to 70% fully vaccinated.
We have a problem with vaccine uptake (particularly in certain areas) and it is impacting the length of time our hospitals are full. We also have a problem in certain areas completing their shot regimen (HI for example).
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 08, 2021, 10:47:15 PM
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v1
Not peer reviewed yet but this was discussed recently on scoop and it seems the problem might be more prevalent then originally thought.
I know Pakuni already kinda rebutted your stance here. But seems there's some new info out:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 12, 2021, 04:30:15 PM
Japan started late and just rocketed by us (like this week). So far their vaccination curve isnt slowing.
Also that is first dose what you are quoting. We are in the 50's all in.
You were dismissing Canada a few weeks ago for the same reason -- only being a few points ahead of us (first dose) now they are close to 70% fully vaccinated.
We have a problem with vaccine uptake (particularly in certain areas) and it is impacting the length of time our hospitals are full. We also have a problem in certain areas completing their shot regimen (HI for example).
FWIW, I was quoting everyone else's first dose amount as well. I wasn't picking and choosing.
I totally hear your point, I just think its worth the perspective of noting that a 10% increase for the US vs a 10% increase for Canada is a difference of literally 30MM people, or over 80% of the entire population of Canada.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 12, 2021, 10:44:16 PM
FWIW, I was quoting everyone else's first dose amount as well. I wasn't picking and choosing.
I totally hear your point, I just think its worth the perspective of noting that a 10% increase for the US vs a 10% increase for Canada is a difference of literally 30MM people, or over 80% of the entire population of Canada.
I know you are not trying to be disingenuous, but I think it's time to call the US vaccine effort for what it is instead of trying to find silver linings. Very mediocre considering we had access early, provided it free and had great distribution coverage.
I mean - if China vaccinated 400 million people we wouldnt be saying "oh thats wonderful, they vaccinated more people than anyone else."
Alabama man dies after being turned away from 43 hospitals as covid packs ICUs, family says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/12/alabama-ray-demonia-hospitals-icu/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_the7&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34a9398%2F613f2fdd9d2fda262757afa2%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F18%2F38%2F613f2fdd9d2fda262757afa2
Yeah, but don't worry. We keep getting reassured that staying unvaccinated affects only the noble patriot exercising his or her choice.
Freedom!
I just saw that as well. So sad.
Hospitals in Oklahoma are turning away gunshot victims because they're full of COVID patients. Ugh! I wish we could just round up all the unvaccinated and lock them up somewhere and throw away the key. They offer no value to society.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on September 13, 2021, 07:37:43 AM
They offer no value to society.
If you said they are actively working to harm society you'd be correct.
Columbus Blue Jackets replaced assistant coach Sylvain Lefebvre because he refused to get vaccinated. The NHL has mandated that all employees who interact with players have to be vaccinated.
Besides being barbaric, these governors continue to show their stupidity. They are killing their own voters.
Remember when there was some debate here over whether Ron DeSantis was discouraging vaccination or simply not doing enough to encourage it?
Does this change anyone's mind?
@KevinCate
Moments ago, @GovRonDeSantis let someone stand behind the Seal of Florida and say: "The vaccine changes your RNA."
It does not. No corrections. No shame.
https://twitter.com/KevinCate/status/1437461661724590082
Got to love the Onion.
Horrified Anti-Vaxxer Discovers Every American Who Got Smallpox Vaccine In 19th Century Now Dead
https://www.theonion.com/horrified-anti-vaxxer-discovers-every-american-who-got-1847644353?utm_source=TheOnion_Daily_RSS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2021-09-13
LYNCHBURG, VA—Astounded by the damning information, local anti-vaxxer Pete Dixon was reportedly horrified Thursday after discovering that every single American who got a smallpox vaccine in the 19th century was now deceased. "We're expected to follow along blindly with the CDC, but if people would simply look to the history, they'd see that the thousands of people who were inoculated against smallpox in the 1800s have since dropped dead," said Dixon, telling reporters that it was disgusting that the mainstream media had refused to share any stories about Americans who had taken the government-mandated vaccines, only to eventually perish from complications including respiratory failure, cancer, heart attack, stroke, or cholera. "They act like these shots are completely safe and tested, but I guarantee that future historians are going to look back on this time period centuries from now and discover that everyone who took the Covid vaccine is dead, too." Dixon added that despite the media's constant downplaying of alternative medicine, not a single person in the 19th century had died from ingesting ivermectin.
https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1437462941100646405?t=WfrqjqoRoeAoyXA432Ax2g&s=19
I mean...wtf. honestly, wtf.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 13, 2021, 06:29:43 PM
https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1437462941100646405?t=WfrqjqoRoeAoyXA432Ax2g&s=19
I mean...wtf. honestly, wtf.
I agree. Rs should never go to the emergency room. Definitely do not get the vaccine.
But, in reality, every one of these whiners would run to the ER and then raise a fuss if they aren't 1st in line for care.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 12, 2021, 03:06:28 PM
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/vPp4FXfTK5yfgvsnycNJFw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTYxOS4zNTQ4Mzg3MDk2Nzc0/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/xCAZVsa1b.XfegjCB0kk8A--~B/aD00MDA7dz02MjA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/thewrap.com/ed17275e3685188456051ec107d0c17f)
Well apparently Tucker now knows that the vaccine should be questioned because a friend of Nicki Minaj's cousin had a totally believable reaction to it. Looks like he's over his W.A.P. outrage if she's questioning the vaccine (disclaimer: I only saw the screen shot so my take may be off. He may have scoffed at the claim and proceeded to urge his viewers to get vaccinated.)
https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1437582103181504517 (https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1437582103181504517)
Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend's balls in Trinidad? Thanks Obama Biden!
Clever op-ed on how to get shots in arms of folks in "Mayberry":
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/article254146273.html?
Folks always say there's an episode of "The Andy Griffith Show" for everything. I think I'm starting to believe them.
In an episode from season two, Sheriff Andy Taylor joins the county nurse on a quest to get farmer Rafe Hollister to take the tetanus shot. They try a few things: a gentler approach with explanations, some shouting demands from Barney Fife, and an appeal for Rafe to think of the children.
Finally, Andy sits down with him, and says he gets it — Rafe wants to be famous, to be a martyr to show people that they need to get the vaccine or they'll end up dead like him. Andy even breaks out the guitar to sing a funeral dirge, complete with sod and silver spades and burials on snowy hills underneath "willer trees."
This gets Rafe. He fearfully tells Andy he doesn't want to die, and gets the shot from the nurse. Barney also has to get his tetanus shot, because despite all the antics he still didn't have his.
The episode, of course, is supposed to be funny and lighthearted. There's a laugh track dubbed over Rafe's face as Andy sings. No one would have expected that folks would be dying 60 years later after refusing to get a vaccine, that iPads and layers of protective gear would be required to get a last glimpse of your loved ones.
When I saw this episode mentioned by a Houston journalist, I thought about what would have happened in the real Mayberry, mine and Andy Griffith's hometown.
Mount Airy, North Carolina has not responded well to the pandemic, because folks have barely reacted at all. Only 43 percent of Surry County residents are fully vaccinated from COVID, and 47 percent have had at least one shot. ...
Biden's team tightens grip on state use of Covid antibody treatments
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden-s-team-tightens-grip-on-state-use-of-covid-antibody-treatments/ar-AAOrtzr?ocid=msedgntp
"Seven states — Texas, Florida, Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, Louisiana and Alabama — accounted for 70 percent of all orders in early September."
There is a lack of understanding by Southern Governor's that there isn't an unlimited supply of Monoclonals..
Quote from: pbiflyer on September 15, 2021, 11:28:54 AM
There is a lack of understanding by Southern Governor's
Could have stopped right there.
Watch for these same governors to accuse Biden of deliberately withholding treatment.
Can't rely on antibody treatment in lieu of vaccination and other mitigation measures. Not fair to the other states and territories.
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/denise-truffles-lyonnais-68-the-villiages-fl-anti-vaxxer-clown-dies-from-covid?fbclid=IwAR31lQ3w05Pf5T-jtN6Og9m1eULzh65kcbqGIrbpF_pAu46R2Xy2R4G3fFU
The Villages literally just lost an anti-vaxx clown.
Thoughts and prayers.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on September 15, 2021, 01:22:28 PM
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/denise-truffles-lyonnais-68-the-villiages-fl-anti-vaxxer-clown-dies-from-covid?fbclid=IwAR31lQ3w05Pf5T-jtN6Og9m1eULzh65kcbqGIrbpF_pAu46R2Xy2R4G3fFU
The Villages literally just lost an anti-vaxx clown.
A little song, a little dance, a little (ultimately deadly) anti-vaxx BS down her pants.
Nope ... Truffles was not nearly as lovable as Chuckles.
A littl
Quote from: Warriors4ever on September 15, 2021, 01:22:28 PM
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/denise-truffles-lyonnais-68-the-villiages-fl-anti-vaxxer-clown-dies-from-covid?fbclid=IwAR31lQ3w05Pf5T-jtN6Og9m1eULzh65kcbqGIrbpF_pAu46R2Xy2R4G3fFU
The Villages literally just lost an anti-vaxx clown.
That website is nuts.
Yeah, friend of mine with a winter home there posted the story.
If you ever want to feel good about yourself, go to their news website, villages-news.com. Full of the nuttiest stories. My friend puts up stuff from there too.
Biden's executive order gives cover and support to companies that wanted to mandate vaccines but didn't feel they could.
From the NYT:
Tim Boyle, the chief executive of Columbia Sportswear, said in an interview on Wednesday that his company had drafted a policy mandating vaccines months ago. But it had held off carrying it out until Mr. Biden announced last week that he was directing the Labor Department to issue an emergency safety declaration that would effectively function as a vaccine mandate for tens of millions of workers. Columbia Sportswear told its workers that it will put a vaccine requirement in place next week.
Mr. Boyle said Columbia was concerned that by acting alone it would risk losing as many as half of its workers in distribution centers and retail stores. Mr. Biden's order, he said, reduced the risk that workers who don't want to get vaccinated would quit to work elsewhere.
"There's much less opportunity for people to go somewhere they don't need to be vaccinated," he said.
Mr. Boyle said vaccinations had divided Columbia's work force. Managers in its Portland, Ore., headquarters have largely embraced the shots, he said, but retail and warehouse workers throughout the country have been more reluctant. He said that hesitancy had hurt the company, with infections and the threat of infection forcing closures and cleanings of locations.
"Those operations are predicated on people working together closely," he said. Having unvaccinated workers is "highly disruptive."
We won't really get back to "normal" until the vast majority of Americans are vaccinated.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 09, 2021, 10:54:57 AM
careful what you wish for re:vaccine mandates. can health care afford to lose 10% of it's staff? for the feds however, there's room for a lot more
Bluster. What are they going to do? Work at Mac D's?
A recurring theme among the lefties here is that Florida is a mess because of the low rate of vaccinations. Turns out Florida is above average in vax rates overall (21st) and way above average in the rate among the most vulnerable (seniors), ranking 13th. Among those lagging behind Florida are Wisconsin, Illinois and Michigan. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Not.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2021, 10:02:02 PM
A recurring theme among the lefties here is that Florida is a mess because of the low rate of vaccinations.
Has anyone actually said this?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2021, 10:02:02 PM
A recurring theme among the lefties here is that Florida is a mess because of the low rate of vaccinations. Turns out Florida is above average in vax rates overall (21st) and way above average in the rate among the most vulnerable (seniors), ranking 13th. Among those lagging behind Florida are Wisconsin, Illinois and Michigan. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Not.
No, we are a mess because of our governor making mask mandates and vaccine passports illegal. It's a mess because our governor advocates experimental costly limited treatment over cheap, proven, available prevention. It's a mess because our governor touts individual stupidity over greater good. It's a mess because we do limited reporting and no tracing.
But hey, we've killed off more voters than his margin of victory over a drug addict, so there is a positive maybe in 2022.
Quote from: pbiflyer on September 16, 2021, 10:29:17 PM
No, we are a mess because of our governor making mask mandates and vaccine passports illegal.
Where are "vaccine passports" a thing?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2021, 10:02:02 PM
A recurring theme among the lefties here is that Florida is a mess because of the low rate of vaccinations. Turns out Florida is above average in vax rates overall (21st) and way above average in the rate among the most vulnerable (seniors), ranking 13th. Among those lagging behind Florida are Wisconsin, Illinois and Michigan. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Not.
"We're a mess for different reasons than you think" is a hell of an own.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 16, 2021, 10:24:47 PM
Has anyone actually said this?
With all the crazy stuff being said about DeSantis in particular and Florida in general I'm honestly not sure. But given all the crap spewed here I was astounded that Florida 's gov was doing so well (especially compared to Midwestern states with science believing governors) getting his citizens vaccinated.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2021, 10:55:55 PM
Where are "vaccine passports" a thing?
New York for one, but I was using passports as a short hand as he is fining businesses $5,000 for asking for proof of vaccination. You either knew that or are spouting off about Florida without a clue of what is really going on.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 16, 2021, 10:58:10 PM
"We're a mess for different reasons than you think" is a hell of an own.
We're a mess because it's our turn. The mess moves around. At the end of the day Florida will fare better than some, worse than others. That's hardly the impression pushed by many here, though.
Quote from: pbiflyer on September 16, 2021, 11:05:54 PM
New York for one
New York? Seriously? Must be a great policy.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2021, 11:04:35 PM
With all the crazy stuff being said about DeSantis in particular and Florida in general I'm honestly not sure. But given all the crap spewed here I was astounded that Florida 's gov was doing so well (especially compared to Midwestern states with science believing governors) getting his citizens vaccinated.
So you came here to debunk a "recurring theme among the lefties" without knowing whether it had even been said, much less was a recurring theme?
You're a good guy, Lenny. Don't go full Chico's on us.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2021, 11:13:05 PM
New York? Seriously? Must be a great policy.
In New York, you get shuffled around the nursing home scene, collecting stamps in a passport book, althewhile spreading covid and winning emmys.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2021, 11:04:35 PM
With all the crazy stuff being said about DeSantis in particular and Florida in general I'm honestly not sure. But given all the crap spewed here I was astounded that Florida 's gov was doing so well (especially compared to Midwestern states with science believing governors) getting his citizens vaccinated.
Oh.. Ok. So you blatantly lied with your original post.
Thanks for making this easy
(https://www.sporcle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/festivus.png)
Starting Panthers guard John Miller had to miss the season opener because he had COVID-19. He is one of only 2 unvaccinated players/coaches in the organization.
From the Charlotte Observer:
Miller was activated off the reserve/COVID-19 list earlier this week and he could return to the starting lineup. But he might not be in game shape to do so.
Miller said he was down "pretty bad" for three of four days after contracting COVID-19. He began getting symptoms on Sept. 4. He said he got worse the next Monday. He stayed home throughout the process, but never felt he needed to go to the hospital.
"Running around on the field Wednesday morning, I did a little conditioning and I was like, 'Wow, my lung capacity is not what it used to be,' " Miller said.
"I had a lot of time to sit and think and reflect about different things, and obviously the most important thing that came up to me, was how much I love the game of football," Miller said.
Well, maybe the most important thing he should have learned was that if he had gotten vaccinated, none of that would have happened to him. Then he wouldn't have had to spend more than a week away from the game he loves and now wouldn't be struggling to catch his breath so he can go back to playing the game he loves.
Maybe even more important: He could get vaccinated and become a vocal advocate for the vaccine, thereby helping persuade others who are hesitant to get vaccinated.
I'm a little concerned that the Feds haven't done much to stop the hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated migrants coming across the southern border. Our hospitals are already full in these southern states with death merchant governers, and it's like is there going to be any room for any migrants that catch the virus? I know the VP told them not to come, but maybe they never got the message? What do we do?
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on September 17, 2021, 01:38:34 PM
I'm a little concerned that the Feds haven't done much to stop the hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated migrants coming across the southern border. Our hospitals are already full in these southern states with death merchant governers, and it's like is there going to be any room for any migrants that catch the virus? I know the VP told them not to come, but maybe they never got the message? What do we do?
Vaccinate them.
Use the 80,000 vaccine doses going unused in Arkansas.
Ahhhh, so about those booster shots?!?!? Good work by the administration on getting out ahead of the science on this one.
Still glad I'm boostered and would do it again.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 17, 2021, 02:54:35 PM
Still glad I'm boostered and would do it again.
Way to follow the science.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 17, 2021, 03:06:55 PM
Way to follow the science.
Your customers told me they'd still take the booster shot
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 17, 2021, 02:54:35 PM
Still glad I'm boostered and would do it again.
The information from Pfizer and Israel indicates diminished anti-bodies afte a few months. Yours is a wise decision. I still have the tiger blood ( decently rough case
plus vaccine) so current science indicates I can wait a few months.
Quote from: tower912 on September 17, 2021, 03:12:45 PM
The information from Pfizer and Israel indicates diminished anti-bodies afte a few months. Yours is a wise decision. I still have the tiger blood ( decently rough case
plus vaccine) so current science indicates I can wait a few months.
Haha, you guys are 🤡 s!!!
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 17, 2021, 03:13:04 PM
What a day for Biden. Pentagon confirmed we bombed/killed 10 innocent Afghans including 7 children with no ISIS-K members harmed.
France pulls their ambassadors from US after having their back stabbed. And now the FDA ruling. What a mess.
Your customers must be mad
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 17, 2021, 03:06:55 PM
Way to follow the science.
Thanks, I appreciate your genuine compassion.
https://mobile.twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1438958311886315520
Glad the adults are back in charge though!!
Quote from: tower912 on September 17, 2021, 03:37:16 PM
Truer words rarely spoken
I'd add disingenuous snowflake, too
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 17, 2021, 03:38:41 PM
I'd add disingenuous snowflake, too
This is more appropriate
I want to know what Pace's "hanging at the Al" screen name is
https://nypost.com/2021/09/17/fda-advisory-panel-refuses-to-green-light-booster-shots-for-people-16-and-over/
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 17, 2021, 03:33:41 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/redsteeze/status/1438958311886315520
Glad the adults are back in charge though!!
But you're not a troll...
Quote from: Pakuni on September 17, 2021, 04:43:28 PM
But you're not a troll...
Right wing hypocrite complaining that there is one day without a press briefing seems on brand.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 17, 2021, 05:00:13 PM
Right wing hypocrite complaining that there is one day without a press briefing seems on brand.
Redsteeze is one of the biggest lightweight intellectuals out there. I've read his stuff and beyond his grammatical errors, poor grasp of policy and history, he's made an entire schtick out of being a media watchdog, whatever that is. There are thousands of conservative intellectuals and pundits worth following. He isn't one. Anyone retweeting or linking to him is obviously unserious.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 17, 2021, 05:28:13 PM
Redsteeze is one of the biggest lightweight intellectuals out there. I've read his stuff and beyond his grammatical errors, poor grasp of policy and history, he's made an entire schtick out of being a media watchdog, whatever that is. There are thousands of conservative intellectuals and pundits worth following. He isn't one. Anyone retweeting or linking to him is obviously unserious.
His genre of media/schtick is the worst kind. Find snippets or stories of the "bad guys", smugly post it, and the add some dumb crowing barb. Ive unfollowed a bunch of formerly good Twitter follows who started to endlessly retweet idiots like him or his liberal counterparts. Anyone who can't post something without framing every Dem/Dem supporter as a socialist crony with a dastardly agenda or every Rep/conservative as some MAGA adoring callous lunatic while lifting their own intelligence is just worthless noise, unless you just want to snort some like minded echo chamber political pixie sticks
Quote from: JWags85 on September 17, 2021, 06:00:35 PM
His genre of media/schtick is the worst kind. Find snippets or stories of the "bad guys", smugly post it, and the add some dumb crowing barb. Ive unfollowed a bunch of formerly good Twitter follows who started to endlessly retweet idiots like him or his liberal counterparts. Anyone who can't post something without framing every Dem/Dem supporter as a socialist crony with a dastardly agenda or every Rep/conservative as some MAGA adoring callous lunatic while lifting their own intelligence is just worthless noise, unless you just want to snort some like minded echo chamber political pixie sticks
It's all nauseating
Quote from: JWags85 on September 17, 2021, 06:00:35 PM
His genre of media/schtick is the worst kind. Find snippets or stories of the "bad guys", smugly post it, and the add some dumb crowing barb. Ive unfollowed a bunch of formerly good Twitter follows who started to endlessly retweet idiots like him or his liberal counterparts. Anyone who can't post something without framing every Dem/Dem supporter as a socialist crony with a dastardly agenda or every Rep/conservative as some MAGA adoring callous lunatic while lifting their own intelligence is just worthless noise, unless you just want to snort some like minded echo chamber political pixie sticks
Whoa whoa whoa. Wait a minute....
What's wrong with snorting pixie sticks?
I just updated the sign in the Scoop break room. It now reads:
"It's been 7 0 days since Chico's has been repeatedly dunked on"
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 17, 2021, 04:40:16 PM
https://nypost.com/2021/09/17/fda-advisory-panel-refuses-to-green-light-booster-shots-for-people-16-and-over/
It will be interesting to follow up on whether this was the right decision in a couple months.
I've mentioned previously that this is a difficult call for the FDA as there are a lot of variables in this decision, some of which we do not have the full answers for yet. The lack of full answers is what ultimately left the advisory panel to recommend against a third dose for all. They are deciding being reactive is a better plan than proactive.
One key note: The advisory panel recommended the 3rd dose for a wider range than they report in this article. It is recommended for:
1. 65+
2. Certain medical conditions.
3. High risk occupations
The reason, is there is definitive data that the 3rd dose boosts efficacy, is safe, and enhances protection against both spread and severe infection. They pretty much universally agree that a 3rd dose is necessary, just concerned on the timeline on when that 3rd dose is best.
Israel was already seeing severe breakthroughs (they vaccinated earlier). Their models showed if they waited, hospitals would soon be overwhelmed. The argument from the advisory committee is that we haven't yet seen the wave of severe breakthroughs, so are uncertain on the optimal time to initiate a 3rd dose.
What the scientists, and administration are hoping is that increased vaccinations due to mandates via the OSHA rule decrease spread enough that we may not need the 3rd dose as early. Getting the unvaccinated to due the right thing is the current focus. Let's hope it works.
edit: Note that the pool of individuals being recommended a 3rd dose, are also the very first people on the initial priority list. So they would still be getting their 3rd dose at around the 8-10 month mark. That buys time to get data in the US on when the 3rd dose is most needed for the later vaccinated groups. This is a big factor in the final decisions, as it likely doesn't shift any of the WH's initial timelines.
For those interested in seeing all the data and discussions. They can be found here:
https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees/advisory-committee-calendar/vaccines-and-related-biological-products-advisory-committee-september-17-2021-meeting-announcement#event-information (https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees/advisory-committee-calendar/vaccines-and-related-biological-products-advisory-committee-september-17-2021-meeting-announcement#event-information)
and the data slides here.
https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees/advisory-committee-calendar/vaccines-and-related-biological-products-advisory-committee-september-17-2021-meeting-announcement#event-materials (https://www.fda.gov/advisory-committees/advisory-committee-calendar/vaccines-and-related-biological-products-advisory-committee-september-17-2021-meeting-announcement#event-materials)
Quote from: naginiF on September 17, 2021, 07:17:45 PM
I just updated the sign in the Scoop break room. It now reads:
"It's been 7 0 days since Chico's has been repeatedly dunked on"
Because people don't like a guy I linked a tweet to? Nothing that was said in the message was wrong, not sure that's getting dunked on.
Remember when I got "dunked" on because I brought up RSV and how that poses a significant risk to kids. I was told I was wrong and crazy.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/health/2021/09/17/wisconsin-pediatric-icus-fill-because-non-covid-viruses-like-rsv/5704313001/
I wasn't.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 18, 2021, 07:43:15 AM
Because people don't like a guy I linked a tweet to? Nothing that was said in the message was wrong, not sure that's getting dunked on.
Remember when I got "dunked" on because I brought up RSV and how that poses a significant risk to kids. I was told I was wrong and crazy.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/health/2021/09/17/wisconsin-pediatric-icus-fill-because-non-covid-viruses-like-rsv/5704313001/
I wasn't.
nm. Not worth my time.
More clear trolling.
Quote from: forgetful on September 18, 2021, 09:21:00 AM
nm. Not worth my time.
More clear trolling.
Your original post was correct
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on September 18, 2021, 07:43:15 AM
Remember when I got "dunked" on because I brought up RSV and how that poses a significant risk to kids. I was told I was wrong and crazy.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/health/2021/09/17/wisconsin-pediatric-icus-fill-because-non-covid-viruses-like-rsv/5704313001/
I wasn't.
This may no doubt shock many here, but this isn't what happened in the previous RSV discussions at all.
Rather, you claimed that RSV "almost exclusively hospitalizes kids," which is provably false, then posted outdated stats to compare COVID vs RSV hospitalizations among kids.
Nobody called you crazy. We just pointed out your selective/misleading data.
I'll post the receipts if you wish.
Oh, and the link you chose to prove you were right contains these paragraph, which proves you weren't.
Southern states are meanwhile seeing their pediatric ICUs fill with children infected by the more contagious delta variant of COVID-19. Children now account for more than a quarter of new cases nationwide, according to a Sept. 9 report from the American Academy of Pediatrics, and as more children get the virus, more will be hospitalized with it.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 18, 2021, 10:34:40 AM
Your original post was correct
Thanks, I just figured I was wasting my time and indulging the troll, so simply removed the factual rebuttal.
I'm positively convinced now that he knows he's inaccurate, shifting goal posts, and arguing in bad faith now as some kind of fun game to him.
Quote from: forgetful on September 18, 2021, 02:23:00 PM
Thanks, I just figured I was wasting my time and indulging the troll, so simply removed the factual rebuttal.
I'm positively convinced now that he knows he's inaccurate, shifting goal posts, and arguing in bad faith now as some kind of fun game to him.
Are you new here?
Quote from: forgetful on September 18, 2021, 02:23:00 PM
Thanks, I just figured I was wasting my time and indulging the troll, so simply removed the factual rebuttal.
I'm positively convinced now that he knows he's inaccurate, shifting goal posts, and arguing in bad faith now as some kind of fun game to him.
Yet there's of slew of dentists and jizz-moppers cheering him on and worse, believing he's correct.
So in addition to selfish, stupid people refusing to get vaccinated, getting infected and taking up so many ICU beds that hospitals in many states have to turn away non-covid patients ... dopes who are taking a horse de-wormer to treat the infection they wouldn't have gotten had they been vaccinated are messing things up for horses.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/19/ivermectin-horse-dewormer-owners-covid/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34b95d2%2F61475a989d2fda9d41d6ac89%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F43%2F74%2F61475a989d2fda9d41d6ac89
Equine ivermectin comes in small tubes and syringes and helps eliminate "many types of worms," often for less than $10. And lately it's been hard to find.
Amid the recent clamor for the deworming agent — commonly used on horses, livestock and sometimes dogs and cats — as an unproven covid-19 treatment for humans, people who need to treat their horses with the substance have been faced with empty shelves and the fear that they could be mistaken for the people who are using the drug on themselves.
Jealous of DeSantis, Noem, and whatever the dork's name is in Mississippi, Gov. Kemp points out that mandating the AIDS vaccine didn't work...
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1439573491481780231?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1439573491481780231%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F100215874503
Quote from: MU82 on September 19, 2021, 05:57:25 PM
So in addition to selfish, stupid people refusing to get vaccinated, getting infected and taking up so many ICU beds that hospitals in many states have to turn away non-covid patients ... dopes who are taking a horse de-wormer to treat the infection they wouldn't have gotten had they been vaccinated are messing things up for horses.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/19/ivermectin-horse-dewormer-owners-covid/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34b95d2%2F61475a989d2fda9d41d6ac89%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F43%2F74%2F61475a989d2fda9d41d6ac89
Equine ivermectin comes in small tubes and syringes and helps eliminate "many types of worms," often for less than $10. And lately it's been hard to find.
Amid the recent clamor for the deworming agent — commonly used on horses, livestock and sometimes dogs and cats — as an unproven covid-19 treatment for humans, people who need to treat their horses with the substance have been faced with empty shelves and the fear that they could be mistaken for the people who are using the drug on themselves.
If it comes down to either keeping horses alive or keeping republicans alive?
I love horses. They're smarter.
Quote from: Jockey on September 19, 2021, 08:01:49 PM
If it comes down to either keeping horses alive or keeping republicans alive?
I love horses. They're smarter.
Certainly true if we're talking about the thoroughbred. They're faster than any other animal, they can jump higher than any other animal. and they are the most beautiful of all animals. Take a thoroughbred over a republican and many democrats any day.
Quote from: Jockey on September 19, 2021, 08:01:49 PM
If it comes down to either keeping horses alive or keeping republicans alive?
I love horses. They're smarter.
Don't mess with my Triple Crown and Saratoga!
Looks like Tucker figured it out.
@justinbaragona: Tucker Carlson: "The point of mandatory vaccinations to identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the freethinkers, the men with high testosterone levels, and anybody else who doesn't love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately. It's a takeover of the U.S. military!" https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1440107390813212672/video/1
Tucker gotta Tucker.
From the Charlotte Observer:
A truck claiming to be from a funeral home was emblazoned with a blunt message Sunday while driving around Bank of America Stadium, where the Panthers were playing the New Orleans Saints: "Don't get vaccinated."
It remains unclear who might be behind the scare tactic urging people to finally get vaccinated against COVID-19.
The website for the "Wilmore Funeral Home" on the truck takes people to a site that simply says, "Get vaccinated now. If not, see you soon."
Quote from: Pakuni on September 20, 2021, 09:07:05 PM
Looks like Tucker figured it out.
@justinbaragona: Tucker Carlson: "The point of mandatory vaccinations to identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the freethinkers, the men with high testosterone levels, and anybody else who doesn't love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately. It's a takeover of the U.S. military!" https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1440107390813212672/video/1
Tuckums is vaccinated.
Charlotte's second-largest hospital system has stored the carrots and has gotten out the sticks ..
Novant Health employees had a deadline of Sept. 15 to be compliant with a new program that required them to either get a dose of the COVID vaccine or get a medical or religious exemption. Now, nearly 400 employees who failed to comply have been suspended and put on a five-day unpaid suspension period with the chance to follow original orders.
Refusal to comply after that five-day period will result in termination, according to Novant.
As the Observer's Hannah Smoot reports, 98.6% of more than 35,000 employees are compliant with the program. Workers who have gotten their first vaccine of Pfizer or Moderna have until Oct. 15 to get the second dose.
Employees who have an exemption must undergo weekly COVID testing, wear N95 masks or other PPE, and wear eye-protection while working on Novant premises, according to the hospital system.
The largest system, which also is the largest employer in the region, has a later deadline: Oct. 31.
How about instead of boosters, we focus on first shots in the unvax in the US -> Canada -> Mexico -> Central/South America?
Secure the virus on a global level.
You could MAYBE get buy-in from me on boosters for eldery/at-risk groups.
Otherwise, focus on obtaining herd immunity within our borders and then geographically close->far.
Of course, I'm guessing here, that's not the best way to guarantee top dollar for pfizer/moderna/jj
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 21, 2021, 05:41:26 PM
How about instead of boosters, we focus on first shots in the unvax in the US -> Canada -> Mexico -> Central/South America?
Secure the virus on a global level.
You could MAYBE get buy-in from me on boosters for eldery/at-risk groups.
Otherwise, focus on obtaining herd immunity within our borders and then geographically close->far.
Of course, I'm guessing here, that's not the best way to guarantee top dollar for pfizer/moderna/jj
We all know why that will never happen.
Canada? Canada is doing better than we are.
I heard today, that for the first time in Alabama's recorded history, more deaths have occurred in 2021 than births in the state.
I don't know why, but that seemed crazy to me.
"The coronavirus is the common cold, folks."
- Rush Limbaugh
Quote from: JWags85 on September 17, 2021, 06:00:35 PM
His genre of media/schtick is the worst kind. Find snippets or stories of the "bad guys", smugly post it, and the add some dumb crowing barb. Ive unfollowed a bunch of formerly good Twitter follows who started to endlessly retweet idiots like him or his liberal counterparts. Anyone who can't post something without framing every Dem/Dem supporter as a socialist crony with a dastardly agenda or every Rep/conservative as some MAGA adoring callous lunatic while lifting their own intelligence is just worthless noise, unless you just want to snort some like minded echo chamber political pixie sticks
You've just described the hell hole that is twitter. Outrage pushes retweets, so that's why it's so popular. It's all a disgusting performative dumpster fire that encourages dunking on stupid takes. It's a breeding ground for narcissists.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on September 22, 2021, 09:26:27 AM
You've just described the hell hole that is twitter. Outrage pushes retweets, so that's why it's so popular. It's all a disgusting performative dumpster fire that encourages dunking on stupid takes. It's a breeding ground for narcissists.
I hate to have to agree, but I quit twitter cold turkey probably two years ago or so and it was the right decision. There is a lot of really funny and incisive commentary on twitter, and I miss some of best accounts I followed - Spencer Hall, Patrick Monahan, Jon Bois, pre-barstool PFT Commenter - but on the whole the platform just became too much and was having a legitimate negative effect on my mental health.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 22, 2021, 12:23:57 PM
I hate to have to agree, but I quit twitter cold turkey probably two years ago or so and it was the right decision. There is a lot of really funny and incisive commentary on twitter, and I miss some of best accounts I followed - Spencer Hall, Patrick Monahan, Jon Bois, pre-barstool PFT Commenter - but on the whole the platform just became too much and was having a legitimate negative effect on my mental health.
100%. I have dramatically reduced my social media presence in the last five years. Once you realize that the negative aspects greatly outweigh the positives, you know it's time to step back.
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 22, 2021, 12:23:57 PM
I hate to have to agree, but I quit twitter cold turkey probably two years ago or so and it was the right decision. There is a lot of really funny and incisive commentary on twitter, and I miss some of best accounts I followed - Spencer Hall, Patrick Monahan, Jon Bois, pre-barstool PFT Commenter - but on the whole the platform just became too much and was having a legitimate negative effect on my mental health.
Mute is a great function but I don't blame anyone for reducing time on social media
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 22, 2021, 12:23:57 PM
I hate to have to agree, but I quit twitter cold turkey probably two years ago or so and it was the right decision. There is a lot of really funny and incisive commentary on twitter, and I miss some of best accounts I followed - Spencer Hall, Patrick Monahan, Jon Bois, pre-barstool PFT Commenter - but on the whole the platform just became too much and was having a legitimate negative effect on my mental health.
I got far more pro-active in unfollowing people, and that greatly improved my time on there. Its a great place for news, especially late breaking stuff, its a great place for some humor, but it can be so toxic. Accounts that used to be great that pivot to trash, outrage fishing, etc... Once I realized that and removed that stuff, it helped.
I also have a friend who REPEATEDLY tells me "just remember, Twitter isn't real life" or "are you actually hearing that, or is it just Twitter noise" and it helps re-ground me if I've floated into the mix too much.
I don't do the twitter, and I have never regretted that decision. Facebook and Instagram are "fun" enough.
Quote from: MU82 on September 22, 2021, 01:16:33 PM
I don't do the twitter, and I have never regretted that decision. Facebook and Instagram are "fun" enough.
I don't do Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. I don't feel like I am missing anything.
Quote from: Jockey on September 22, 2021, 03:32:57 PM
I don't do Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. I don't feel like I am missing anything.
Facebook is great for getting involved in community events and supporting new businesses, thats why I reactivated it after 3yrs. However, I don't understand Twitter, or Instagram and especially don't get Tik Tok.
Ranch. They'll probably put it in fucking ranch.
According to Michael Flynn, the Deep State is going to secretly put the vaccine in salad dressing.
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1440644282759614478
Only the best people!
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 22, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
Ranch. They'll probably put it in unnatural carnal knowledgeing ranch.
According to Michael Flynn, the Deep State is going to secretly put the vaccine in salad dressing.
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1440644282759614478
Only the best people!
It's not secret, but there is some validity to what he heard. They are trying to grow leafy vegetables containing mRNA...
https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2021/09/16/grow-and-eat-your-own-vaccines
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 22, 2021, 05:37:26 PM
It's not secret, but there is some validity to what he heard. They are trying to grow leafy vegetables containing mRNA...
https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2021/09/16/grow-and-eat-your-own-vaccines
Well I learn something new everyday.
Personally, I do not think that is a remotely viable approach.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 22, 2021, 05:32:18 PM
Ranch. They'll probably put it in unnatural carnal knowledgeing ranch.
According to Michael Flynn, the Deep State is going to secretly put the vaccine in salad dressing.
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1440644282759614478
Only the best people!
o
Our former National security adviser
Nearly half of the unvaccinated say they're willing to get a coronavirus shot. The challenge is trying to get it to them.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/23/covid-unvaccinated-but-willing/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_the7&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34c244b%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F8%2F38%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2
Gotta do a better job of informing people, transporting people, giving people time off to get the shot and to recuperate if it makes them sick for a day or two, etc.
Quote from: MU82 on September 23, 2021, 07:44:56 AM
Nearly half of the unvaccinated say they're willing to get a coronavirus shot. The challenge is trying to get it to them.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/23/covid-unvaccinated-but-willing/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_the7&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34c244b%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F8%2F38%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2
Gotta do a better job of informing people, transporting people, giving people time off to get the shot and to recuperate if it makes them sick for a day or two, etc.
Saw a digital billboard on the highway today that said 99% of those hospitalized with COVID were unvaccinated. Frankly, though, at this point, any more communication isn't going to be more effective. Reach is 100% and frequency is beyond saturation.
As I said before, the later stimulus checks and family credits should have been tied to vaccine status. Preaching and mandates are not going to be effective with these holdouts as they are dug in, whether politics or apathy or selfishness.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 23, 2021, 08:48:05 AM
As I said before, the later stimulus checks and family credits should have been tied to vaccine status. Preaching and mandates are not going to be effective with these holdouts as they are dug in, whether politics or apathy or selfishness.
That's fine. They can keep all their checks.
https://twitter.com/aaronparnas/status/1441052899430191117?s=21
What a state
An employee uprising over vaccine mandates? Not so much.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/article254435588.html?
Remember those vaccine mandates? They might be working after all.
North Carolina's major health care systems were some of the first employers in the state to announce a COVID vaccine mandate. Now, they're finding that the vast majority of workers are willing to comply.
The deadline for UNC Health's roughly 29,000 employees to get vaccinated was Tuesday. Nearly 95% of those workers are in compliance with the mandate, health system officials said, and just 60 have resigned.
Similarly, 98.6% of more than 35,000 Novant Health employees have either received a dose of the COVID-19 vaccines or have been granted a medical or religious exemption. Just about 1% of workers are non-compliant and have been suspended, according to the hospital system. Those workers have been given five days to get vaccinated, and it's likely at least some — and probably most — will comply.
The same is true of employers across the country. Delta Air Lines, for example, has seen a boost in its employee vaccination rate since announcing that unvaccinated employees would be penalized, with no increase in resignations, the airline said. Tyson Foods, which announced a vaccine requirement in August, cut the number of unvaccinated workers in half in less than a month.
Yeah, we are seeing similar things here. There was a huge protest when the vaccine mandates were first announced by the local health systems mid-summer, but those have pretty much died down and my understanding is that there are similar numbers to what you are reporting. I think it goes to show that there are a bunch of people who just don't get around to things until they have to. They are the same ones shopping for Christmas gifts on December 24.
I do want to clarify that the government/OSHA requirement isn't a mandate. Employees can still opt out of the vaccine and choose to get frequent testing instead. You aren't required to get the vaccine.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 23, 2021, 03:29:51 PM
I do want to clarify that the government/OSHA requirement isn't a mandate. Employees can still opt out of the vaccine and choose to get frequent testing instead. You aren't required to get the vaccine.
Also to clarify, it also hasn't been formalized with actual rules yet.
Saw a story yesterday that the two largest health care systems in Maine have phased in vaccine mandates (need to be fully vaccinated by 10/15 IIRC) and have only seen 65 out of 33,000+ employees quit because of it, or .19%.
Quote from: jesmu84 on September 23, 2021, 03:29:51 PM
I do want to clarify that the government/OSHA requirement isn't a mandate. Employees can still opt out of the vaccine and choose to get frequent testing instead. You aren't required to get the vaccine.
I think it gives cover, though, for companies wanting to do it.
Super-sad story about a beloved, 40-something, otherwise-healthy mom of 4 girls who died from COVID-19 because she didn't get vaccinated. One of her friends said that, as the woman was dying, she wished she had gotten the vaccine.
Yet another example of a "personal choice" that didn't affect only the person making it. Those 4 girls will go through the rest of their lives without a mother because of a totally preventable death.
A Wake County elementary school teacher who contracted COVID-19 has died.
In a letter sent Thursday to families at Scotts Ridge Elementary School in Apex, parents were told that Merridith Mongone had died that afternoon from complications due to COVID. Mongone, 43, was a fourth-grade teacher at the school.
"She will be greatly missed by the staff, students, and Scotts Ridge community and our hearts go out to her friends and family," said the letter from the school.
Mongone was not vaccinated, according to Christi Vereckey, a friend and fellow fourth-grade teacher at the school. Unvaccinated people are more than 15 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than those who are vaccinated, according to the N.C. Department of Health and Human Services.
Vereckey said Mongone contracted COVID in early August while on a family trip, back before the school year started at Scotts Ridge.
Mongone was too ill to come back to school, so Vereckey set up her friend's classroom. The school provided people to cover her class while hoping the beloved teacher would return.
"She was full of life, full of energy," Vereckey said in an interview Friday. "She never sat down. She loved teaching, loved seeing kids learn and grow."
Mongone wasn't feeling well so she was admitted to WakeMed in Cary. But her condition worsened, so she was moved to UNC Medical Center in Chapel Hill.
Mongone was put on ECMO, or extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, a machine that replaces the function of the heart and lungs by sucking blood out of the body, pushing it through an artificial lung that feeds it oxygen, then returning it to the heart
"Yesterday heaven gained another angel," said the GoFundMe page created to help the family pay the medical bills. "Merridith passed away with Frankie (her husband) at her side. Please pray for the family for the days to come."
Mongone also leaves behind four daughters.
Now those at the school, including the students, are processing her death. Mongone had worked at Scotts Ridge since August 2018.
"There's a lot of kids struggling today, not only her four girls," Vereckey said. "She really had an impact on a lot of people's lives."
Vereckey said that before her death, Mongone texted Vereckey saying she wished she had gotten the COVID vaccine. Vereckey said that after Mongone got sick she made sure to get her 17-year-old daughter vaccinated.
Mongone's other two teenage daughters will now get their shot too, Vereckey said.
Mongone's death comes as the Wake County school system weighs whether to require employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment.
This.
Well, calling vaccine mandates and passports "a passport to racism" isn't going to help get Black people, the group with the lowest vaccination rate, to get the shot. Trumpets deserved to be mocked and scorned but all anti-vaxxers need to be called out.
Chivona Newsome, a co-founder of Black Lives Matter of Greater New York, made the vow on Monday as NYC restaurants began enforcing legislation requiring all people aged 12 and older to show proof of vaccination to dine inside.
'We're putting this city on notice... Black people are not going to stand by, or you will see an uprising. And that is not a threat. That is a promise,' Newsome declared.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10024955/Co-founder-BLM-New-York-threatens-uprising-citys-racist-vaccine-mandates.html
My prediction: unvaccinated Black individuals will be exempted from the passports. We're talking DiBlasio here.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 26, 2021, 09:11:06 PM
Well, calling vaccine mandates and passports "a passport to racism" isn't going to help get Black people, the group with the lowest vaccination rate, to get the shot. Trumpets deserved to be mocked and scorned but all anti-vaxxers need to be called out.
Chivona Newsome, a co-founder of Black Lives Matter of Greater New York, made the vow on Monday as NYC restaurants began enforcing legislation requiring all people aged 12 and older to show proof of vaccination to dine inside.
'We're putting this city on notice... Black people are not going to stand by, or you will see an uprising. And that is not a threat. That is a promise,' Newsome declared.
My prediction: unvaccinated Black individuals will be exempted from the passports. We're talking DiBlasio here.
Hey look. Billy's obsessed with BLM again.
From the NYT:
In an article this month for Breitbart, the right-wing website formerly run by Steve Bannon, John Nolte argued that the partisan gap in vaccination rates was part of a liberal plot. Liberals like Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Anthony Fauci and Howard Stern have tried so hard to persuade people to get vaccinated, because they know that Republican voters will do the opposite of whatever they say, Nolte wrote.
His argument is certainly bizarre, given that Democratic politicians have been imploring all Americans to get vaccinated and many Republican politicians have not. But Nolte did offer a glimpse at a creeping political fear among some Republicans. "Right now, a countless number of Trump supporters believe they are owning the left by refusing to take a lifesaving vaccine," Nolte wrote. "In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead?"
It was part of a larger piece by David Leonhardt that showed the racial gap is narrowing while the partisan political gap is widening, and it included several graphics showing how people in red counties are far more likely to die or to need long hospital stays because they won't get vaccinated.
Another passage:
It's worth remembering that Covid followed a different pattern for more than a year after its arrival in the U.S. Despite widespread differences in mask wearing — and scientific research suggesting that masks reduce the virus's spread — the pandemic was if anything worse in blue regions. Masks evidently were not powerful enough to overcome other regional differences, like the amount of international travel that flows through major metro areas, which tend to be politically liberal.
Vaccination has changed the situation. The vaccines are powerful enough to overwhelm other differences between blue and red areas.
Some left-leaning communities — like many suburbs of New York, San Francisco and Washington, as well as much of New England — have such high vaccination rates that even the unvaccinated are partly protected by the low number of cases. Conservative communities, on the other hand, have been walloped by the highly contagious Delta variant.
Since Delta began circulating widely in the U.S., Covid has exacted a horrific death toll on red America: In counties where Donald Trump received at least 70 percent of the vote, the virus has killed about 47 out of every 100,000 people since the end of June, according to Charles Gaba, a health care analyst. In counties where Trump won less than 32 percent of the vote, the number is about 10 out of 100,000.
It's tragic that people die when death is so very avoidable.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 26, 2021, 09:11:06 PM
Well, calling vaccine mandates and passports "a passport to racism" isn't going to help get Black people, the group with the lowest vaccination rate, to get the shot. Trumpets deserved to be mocked and scorned but all anti-vaxxers need to be called out.
Chivona Newsome, a co-founder of Black Lives Matter of Greater New York, made the vow on Monday as NYC restaurants began enforcing legislation requiring all people aged 12 and older to show proof of vaccination to dine inside.
'We're putting this city on notice... Black people are not going to stand by, or you will see an uprising. And that is not a threat. That is a promise,' Newsome declared.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10024955/Co-founder-BLM-New-York-threatens-uprising-citys-racist-vaccine-mandates.html
My prediction: unvaccinated Black individuals will be exempted from the passports. We're talking DiBlasio here.
She's an idiot making illogical conclusions. Half the country voted for someone doing that same thing. If her idiocy picks up steam then it's worth being concerned.
Large anti-vaccine protest in NYC last night.
https://twitter.com/theinsiderpaper/status/1442631522587119621?s=21
According to the latest Kaiser Family poll about vaccination rates, Black and Hispanic people have significantly passed White evangelical Christians, rural residents, Republicans and uninsured people under 65.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-september-2021/?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210928&instance_id=41490&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=70082&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
The largest increases in self-reported COVID-19 vaccination rates between July and September were among younger adults (up 11 percentage points among 18-29 year-olds) and Hispanic adults (up 12 percentage points). The largest remaining gap in vaccination rates is by partisanship, with 90% of Democrats saying they have gotten at least one dose compared to 68% of independents and 58% of Republicans. In addition, large differences in self-reported vaccination rates remain between older and younger adults, between those with and without college degrees, and between those with higher and lower incomes, while rural adults continue to lag behind those living in urban and suburban areas. Non-elderly adults without health insurance also continue to report one of the lowest COVID-19 vaccination rates of any group (54%).
Similar shares of Hispanic (73%), Black (70%), and White (71%) adults now report having received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, a change from earlier in the vaccination effort when Black and Hispanic adults were much less likely to report being vaccinated than White adults, and reflecting other data showing that people of color make up a disproportionate share of recent vaccinations. KFF's analysis of state data on vaccination rates by race and ethnicity suggests that, when looking at people of all ages (including children who are not yet eligible to be vaccinated), White people continue to be vaccinated at higher rates than either Black or Hispanic people, although those gaps have narrowed over time.
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 28, 2021, 07:55:04 AM
Large anti-vaccine protest in NYC last night.
https://twitter.com/theinsiderpaper/status/1442631522587119621?s=21
OTOH, vaccine mandates looks to have motivated a significant number of health care workers to get vaccinated.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/nyregion/vaccine-health-care-workers-mandate.html
There were similar protests here when the local mandates were announced by the health care systems. There was another protest last week that drew like 12 people. Really they are running out of excuses and people are running out of patience.
Quote from: MU82 on September 28, 2021, 08:37:50 AM
According to the latest Kaiser Family poll about vaccination rates, Black and Hispanic people have significantly passed White evangelical Christians, rural residents, Republicans and uninsured people under 65.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-september-2021/?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210928&instance_id=41490&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=70082&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
The largest increases in self-reported COVID-19 vaccination rates between July and September were among younger adults (up 11 percentage points among 18-29 year-olds) and Hispanic adults (up 12 percentage points). The largest remaining gap in vaccination rates is by partisanship, with 90% of Democrats saying they have gotten at least one dose compared to 68% of independents and 58% of Republicans. In addition, large differences in self-reported vaccination rates remain between older and younger adults, between those with and without college degrees, and between those with higher and lower incomes, while rural adults continue to lag behind those living in urban and suburban areas. Non-elderly adults without health insurance also continue to report one of the lowest COVID-19 vaccination rates of any group (54%).
Similar shares of Hispanic (73%), Black (70%), and White (71%) adults now report having received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, a change from earlier in the vaccination effort when Black and Hispanic adults were much less likely to report being vaccinated than White adults, and reflecting other data showing that people of color make up a disproportionate share of recent vaccinations. KFF's analysis of state data on vaccination rates by race and ethnicity suggests that, when looking at people of all ages (including children who are not yet eligible to be vaccinated), White people continue to be vaccinated at higher rates than either Black or Hispanic people, although those gaps have narrowed over time.
What is the value of polling when state health departments are tracking demographics? I'd trust the health departments more than a poll, but if it makes white Rs look bad, run with it.
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 28, 2021, 07:55:04 AM
Large anti-vaccine protest in NYC last night.
https://twitter.com/theinsiderpaper/status/1442631522587119621?s=21
You post like that's a good thing.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on September 28, 2021, 09:03:16 AM
What is the value of polling when state health departments are tracking demographics? I'd trust the health departments more than a poll, but if it makes white Rs look bad, run with it.
While you are correct that the data would be more accurate, state health departments don't track a number of factors that the poll covers. (college degree, religious and political affiliation, etc.)
I mean white Rs look bad because they aren't vaccinated. But the good news is there has been progress.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 28, 2021, 09:30:51 AM
You post like that's a good thing.
No point in these people being stupid, if they don't get to brag about it.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 28, 2021, 09:30:51 AM
You post like that's a good thing.
Howso?
I think he just posted that factually a large anti vax protest was going on. There was no exclamation, or smiley face or commentary and it was a neutral source showing a video.
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 28, 2021, 07:55:04 AM
Large anti-vaccine protest in NYC last night.
https://twitter.com/theinsiderpaper/status/1442631522587119621?s=21
Kettle them.
Dart gun them.
Problem solved.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on September 28, 2021, 09:44:08 AM
Howso?
I think he just posted that factually a large anti vax protest was going on. There was no exclamation, or smiley face or commentary and it was a neutral source showing a video.
I inferred it based on his posting history. It's possible I am incorrect, because there is a first time for everything.
Quote from: TSmith34 on September 28, 2021, 12:30:10 PM
I inferred it based on his posting history. It's possible I am incorrect, because there is a first time for everything.
Gotcha, thanks for explaining :)
"I got vaccinated early. I have a baby girl. I travel a lot. I can't bring Covid back to her."
-- Ja Morant.
That's how you be not just a good parent but a role model -- to your daughter. to your fellow athletes and to your fans. Well done, Ja!
Quote from: MU82 on September 28, 2021, 04:45:07 PM
"I got vaccinated early. I have a baby girl. I travel a lot. I can't bring Covid back to her."
-- Ja Morant.
That's how you be not just a good parent but a role model -- to your daughter. to your fellow athletes and to your fans. Well done, Ja!
More support for my "Trade Milwaukee's next 13 1st round picks for Ja Morant" plan.
In a shocking turn of events, it turns out that America's Frontline Doctors' push for "alternative" treatments like HQC and ivermectin is all a grift.
A network of health care providers pocketed millions of dollars selling hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and online consultations, according to hacked data provided to The Intercept. The data show that vast sums of money are being extracted from people concerned about or suffering from Covid-19 but resistant to vaccinations or other recommendations of public health authorities.
America's Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group founded last year to promote pro-Trump doctors during the coronavirus pandemic, is working in tandem with a small network of health care companies to sow distrust in the Covid-19 vaccine, dupe tens of thousands of people into seeking ineffective treatments for the disease, and then sell consultations and millions of dollars' worth of those medications. The data indicate patients spent at least $15 million — and potentially much more — on consultations and medications combined.
https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/
Quote from: Pakuni on September 28, 2021, 05:08:08 PM
In a shocking turn of events, it turns out that America's Frontline Doctors' push for "alternative" treatments like HQC and ivermectin is all a grift.
A network of health care providers pocketed millions of dollars selling hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and online consultations, according to hacked data provided to The Intercept. The data show that vast sums of money are being extracted from people concerned about or suffering from Covid-19 but resistant to vaccinations or other recommendations of public health authorities.
America's Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group founded last year to promote pro-Trump doctors during the coronavirus pandemic, is working in tandem with a small network of health care companies to sow distrust in the Covid-19 vaccine, dupe tens of thousands of people into seeking ineffective treatments for the disease, and then sell consultations and millions of dollars' worth of those medications. The data indicate patients spent at least $15 million — and potentially much more — on consultations and medications combined.
https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/
They've gotten plenty of help promoting this
So much grifting. So many rubes.
I for one am absolutely shocked by this news I definitely didn't see coming
They even scammed some of their fellow medical professionals.
How much has Fr. Fauci pocketed, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 28, 2021, 05:49:56 PM
How much has Fr. Fauci pocketed, hey?
That's some good whataboutism
Quote from: Pakuni on September 28, 2021, 05:08:08 PM
In a shocking turn of events, it turns out that America's Frontline Doctors' push for "alternative" treatments like HQC and ivermectin is all a grift.
A network of health care providers pocketed millions of dollars selling hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and online consultations, according to hacked data provided to The Intercept. The data show that vast sums of money are being extracted from people concerned about or suffering from Covid-19 but resistant to vaccinations or other recommendations of public health authorities.
America's Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group founded last year to promote pro-Trump doctors during the coronavirus pandemic, is working in tandem with a small network of health care companies to sow distrust in the Covid-19 vaccine, dupe tens of thousands of people into seeking ineffective treatments for the disease, and then sell consultations and millions of dollars' worth of those medications. The data indicate patients spent at least $15 million — and potentially much more — on consultations and medications combined.
https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/
Haven't there been posts here using these folks as sources?
Too similar. So, let's change to...
Con-men. What-abouters. The gullible.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 28, 2021, 05:49:56 PM
How much has Fr. Fauci pocketed, hey?
What whack-job "cures" has he been promoting and profiting off of?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 28, 2021, 05:49:56 PM
How much has Fr. Fauci pocketed, hey?
From dangerous products that he himself sold?
$0.00.
Next thing you'll claim is that it was Fauci chanting, "Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!"
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 28, 2021, 06:59:31 PM
What whack-job "cures" has he been promoting and profiting off of?
Not sure about profiting, but the whack job stuff he has shamelessly plugged include vaccines and masks. Crazy nut job!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 28, 2021, 05:49:56 PM
How much has Fr. Fauci pocketed, hey?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non%20sequitur
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 28, 2021, 05:49:56 PM
How much has Fr. Fauci pocketed, hey?
Another genius comment.
I can only hope GB and then MU win and keep winning so you and your gibberish will be absent.
Quote from: Pakuni on September 28, 2021, 05:08:08 PM
In a shocking turn of events, it turns out that America's Frontline Doctors' push for "alternative" treatments like HQC and ivermectin is all a grift.
A network of health care providers pocketed millions of dollars selling hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and online consultations, according to hacked data provided to The Intercept. The data show that vast sums of money are being extracted from people concerned about or suffering from Covid-19 but resistant to vaccinations or other recommendations of public health authorities.
America's Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group founded last year to promote pro-Trump doctors during the coronavirus pandemic, is working in tandem with a small network of health care companies to sow distrust in the Covid-19 vaccine, dupe tens of thousands of people into seeking ineffective treatments for the disease, and then sell consultations and millions of dollars' worth of those medications. The data indicate patients spent at least $15 million — and potentially much more — on consultations and medications combined.
https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/
This includes the guy that DeSantis just named Floriduh's new surgeon general. Because of course it does.
When asked about his brother winning a title...
Robin Lopez says he's not sure if Milwaukee actually won a championship because he wasn't there (and didn't watch it). Says "he's still doing his own research".
https://twitter.com/CallMeDBlock/status/1442636692553453573?s=20
Quote from: Jockey on September 28, 2021, 08:45:34 PM
Another genius comment.
I can only hope GB and then MU win and keep winning so you and your gibberish will be absent.
Sorry ta earratate y'all, hey?
You are just the pick at the gums of scoop.
United Airlines says its Covid vaccine mandate is working.
More than 99 percent of the airline's U.S.-based employees have met the firm's vaccination requirement or have applied for a religious or medical exemption.
In an internal memo, the airline also said that nearly 600 workers who haven't yet complied with the policy could be fired.
Quote from: Mutaman on September 28, 2021, 10:49:22 PM
When asked about his brother winning a title...
Robin Lopez says he's not sure if Milwaukee actually won a championship because he wasn't there (and didn't watch it). Says "he's still doing his own research".
https://twitter.com/CallMeDBlock/status/1442636692553453573?s=20
That's some top-notch trolling.
Quote from: MU82 on September 29, 2021, 08:55:44 AM
United Airlines says its Covid vaccine mandate is working.
More than 99 percent of the airline's U.S.-based employees have met the firm's vaccination requirement or have applied for a religious or medical exemption.
In an internal memo, the airline also said that nearly 600 workers who haven't yet complied with the policy could be fired.
Good. Fire 'em all.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 28, 2021, 05:49:56 PM
How much has Fr. Fauci pocketed, hey?
He gets a buck fifty for every dead American, aina?
Quote from: MU82 on September 28, 2021, 04:45:07 PM
"I got vaccinated early. I have a baby girl. I travel a lot. I can't bring Covid back to her."
-- Ja Morant.
That's how you be not just a good parent but a role model -- to your daughter. to your fellow athletes and to your fans. Well done, Ja!
the problem is he can bring COVID back to her. One coworker and his wife, both vaccinated, tested positive, her having given it to him. Both work in vaccine mandatory workplaces.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 29, 2021, 01:23:34 PM
the problem is he can bring COVID back to her. One coworker and his wife, both vaccinated, tested positive, her having given it to him. Both work in vaccine mandatory workplaces.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html
He can. There are no guarantees. But he has reduced the probability of that happening.
Life is all about probabilities.
The seatbelt can malfunction but we wear one because it improves the probability of surviving an accident.
The MMR vaccine might not work 100% of the time but we mandate them for kids because they significantly reduce the probability of getting rubella.
The condom can break but men wear them because they reduce the probability of an unwanted pregnancy.
And yes, Ja Morant could still bring Covid to his daughter, but by doing the intelligent and responsible thing by getting a safe and proven vaccine, he has reduced the probability of that happening.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 29, 2021, 01:23:34 PM
the problem is he can bring COVID back to her. One coworker and his wife, both vaccinated, tested positive, her having given it to him. Both work in vaccine mandatory workplaces.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html
Viral Loads Matter.
I could die after being shot with a BB gun, but I'd rather take my chances with that than an AR-15.
Quote from: jficke13 on September 28, 2021, 04:51:40 PM
More support for my "Trade Milwaukee's next 13 1st round picks for Ja Morant" plan.
Unfortunately, while LeBron got the vaccine, he is not advocating for others to get it.
Going with the "personal choice" line. Of course, anybody who really gives it thought knows that an individual's decision affects more than that person.
Disappointed in LeBron.
Nads, #23 iz a baffoon, aina?
Greatest of his generation.
Do I wish he would be more of an advocate? Sure. But he did what I would hope most vaccine hesitant would do. Do the research, look at the data, and come to the conclusion that it was the best for them.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 29, 2021, 06:19:19 AM
Sorry ta earratate y'all, hey?
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1897887525.5251/st,small,507x507-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.jpg)
Quote from: Pakuni on September 28, 2021, 05:08:08 PM
In a shocking turn of events, it turns out that America's Frontline Doctors' push for "alternative" treatments like HQC and ivermectin is all a grift.
A network of health care providers pocketed millions of dollars selling hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and online consultations, according to hacked data provided to The Intercept. The data show that vast sums of money are being extracted from people concerned about or suffering from Covid-19 but resistant to vaccinations or other recommendations of public health authorities.
America's Frontline Doctors, a right-wing group founded last year to promote pro-Trump doctors during the coronavirus pandemic, is working in tandem with a small network of health care companies to sow distrust in the Covid-19 vaccine, dupe tens of thousands of people into seeking ineffective treatments for the disease, and then sell consultations and millions of dollars' worth of those medications. The data indicate patients spent at least $15 million — and potentially much more — on consultations and medications combined.
https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/covid-telehealth-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-hacked/
you guys need to open your eyes and stop crapping all over treatment options that may have some benefit despite your political leanings. this is how we solve things, not by mocking, minimizing and hence cancelling ideas your "experts" disagree with. get over "right leaning" or "left leaning" and open up your eyes and ears.
https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/One-Page-Summary-of-the-Clinical-Trials-Evidence-for-Ivermectin-in-COVID-19.pdf
ivermectin is becoming the treatment of choice in india despite all the fun ya'll have had with it. fortunately they've ignored all the "jokes" and have actually been saving lives with it
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
omg
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 30, 2021, 05:12:30 PM
you guys need to open your eyes and stop crapping all over treatment options that may have some benefit despite your political leanings. this is how we solve things, not by mocking, minimizing and hence cancelling ideas your "experts" disagree with. get over "right leaning" or "left leaning" and open up your eyes and ears.
https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/One-Page-Summary-of-the-Clinical-Trials-Evidence-for-Ivermectin-in-COVID-19.pdf
Oh boy... you know you just quoted a source that is expressly DEDICATED to promoting ivermectin? And HCQ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Line_COVID-19_Critical_Care_Alliance
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 30, 2021, 05:12:30 PM
ivermectin is becoming the treatment of choice in india despite all the fun ya'll have had with it. fortunately they've ignored all the "jokes" and have actually been saving lives with it
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
No it isn't
https://science.thewire.in/health/icmr-revises-covid-treatment-guidelines-removes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine/
Quote
On September 23, India's apex medical research body, the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR), revised its 'Clinical Guidelines' for COVID-19. Specifically, it removed mention of two drugs that a panoply of experts and non-experts had widely used and promoted both in India and worldwide, and which had also been ceaseless sources of controversy: ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ).
The previous version of the national COVID-19 treatment protocols, dated May 17, 2021 (the one from which ICMR dropped the use of convalescent plasma) suggested that ivermectin and HCQ "may" be used despite "a low certainty of the evidence". This feeble cautionary note did nothing to dampen the ill-founded enthusiasm for the use and promotion of both drugs.
With the new revision, ICMR – and India – are now in line with accepted good practice vis-à-vis managing COVID-19, at least on the count of these two drugs.
Not to mention a huge issue with Ivermectin was people clamoring to use livestock rate doses. I'd imagine thats not what was being taken in the generic drug capital of the world
Yes, the group that has accepted 10s of millions of dollars specifically to promote quack treatments.
Sad. But, honestly, the best you can do. Let us know what Sean and Tucker think.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 30, 2021, 05:36:18 PM
Oh boy... you know you just quoted a source that is expressly DEDICATED to promoting ivermectin? And HCQ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Line_COVID-19_Critical_Care_Alliance
No it isn't
https://science.thewire.in/health/icmr-revises-covid-treatment-guidelines-removes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine/
I applaud this takedown.
I hope MU offers a better education than it did when he attended.
An embarrassment to any MU degree.
Quote from: Jockey on September 30, 2021, 06:29:12 PM
I hope MU offers a better education than it did when he attended.
An embarrassment to any MU degree.
Jesuits taught us to think for ourselves. Some chose to ignore that lesson.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 30, 2021, 05:12:30 PM
you guys need to open your eyes and stop crapping all over treatment options that may have some benefit despite your political leanings. this is how we solve things, not by mocking, minimizing and hence cancelling ideas your "experts" disagree with. get over "right leaning" or "left leaning" and open up your eyes and ears.
https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/One-Page-Summary-of-the-Clinical-Trials-Evidence-for-Ivermectin-in-COVID-19.pdf
ivermectin is becoming the treatment of choice in india despite all the fun ya'll have had with it. fortunately they've ignored all the "jokes" and have actually been saving lives with it
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
10 of 10
Standing ovation!
Did Jesuits teach in the dental school?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on September 30, 2021, 05:12:30 PM
you guys need to open your eyes and stop crapping all over treatment options that may have some benefit despite your political leanings. this is how we solve things, not by mocking, minimizing and hence cancelling ideas your "experts" disagree with. get over "right leaning" or "left leaning" and open up your eyes and ears.
https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/One-Page-Summary-of-the-Clinical-Trials-Evidence-for-Ivermectin-in-COVID-19.pdf
ivermectin is becoming the treatment of choice in india despite all the fun ya'll have had with it. fortunately they've ignored all the "jokes" and have actually been saving lives with it
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
There is nothing else to say other that Holy unnatural carnal knowledge, what an idiot.
Quote from: Jockey on September 30, 2021, 06:29:12 PM
I hope MU offers a better education than it did when he attended.
An embarrassment to any MU degree.
Who knows, rocket might have been perfectly fine before Fox brainwashed him. Now, its nothing but a regurgitation of what he hears on TV with zero critical thinking skills.
Another ivermectin success story!
https://twitter.com/HelenKennedy/status/1443738671937691654
I mean it's amusing that rocket keeps getting slapped around whenever he comes here and all.
But then I remember he is actually a "health care professional." And that's frightening.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 30, 2021, 09:17:49 PM
I mean it's amusing that rocket keeps getting slapped around whenever he comes here and all.
But then I remember he is actually a "health care professional." And that's frightening.
Right. I don't really care what rocket chooses to do in his life. But promoting this quack "science" as a medical "professional" is pretty much treason to the occupation. Despicable.
From NYT's David Leonhardt:
The deadline for many workplace mandates arrived this week, often requiring people to have received a Covid-19 vaccine or face being fired. In California, the deadline for health care workers is today.
As was the case with Washington's army, the mandates are largely succeeding:
++ California's policy has led thousands of previously unvaccinated medical workers to receive shots in recent weeks. At Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, about 800 additional workers have been vaccinated since the policy was announced last month, bringing the hospital's vaccination rate to 97 percent, according to my colleague Shawn Hubler.
++ When New York State announced a mandate for hospital and nursing-home staff members in August, about 75 percent of them had received a shot. By Monday, the share had risen to 92 percent. The increase amounts to roughly 100,000 newly vaccinated people.
++ At Trinity Health, a hospital chain in 22 states, the increase has been similar — to 94 percent from 75 percent, The Times's Reed Abelson reports. At Genesis HealthCare, which operates long-term-care facilities in 23 states, Covid cases fell by nearly 50 percent after nearly all staff members had finished receiving shots this summer.
Often, the number of people who ultimately refuse the vaccine is smaller than the number who first say they will. Some are persuaded by the information their employer gives them — about the vaccines' effectiveness and safety, compared with the deadliness of Covid — and others decide they are not really willing to lose their jobs.
A North Carolina hospital system, Novant Health, last week suspended 375 workers, or about 1 percent of its work force, for being unvaccinated. By the end of the week, more than half of them — about 200 — received a shot and were reinstated.
Of course, 175 firings are not nothing. (A Washington Post headline trumpeted the story as "one of the largest-ever mass terminations due to a vaccine mandate.") United Airlines said this week that it would terminate even more employees — about 600, or less than 1 percent of its U.S. work force.
These firings can create hardship for the workers and short-term disruptions for their employers. But those disruptions tend to be fleeting, because the percentage of workers is tiny. "I'm not seeing any widespread disruptive effect," Saad Omer of the Yale Institute for Global Health told The Times.
And the benefits — reducing the spread of a deadly virus and lowering the chances it will mutate dangerously in the future — are large.
Or, we could just give everybody horse de-wormer and say some prayers.
I am grateful for rocket. Forces those who disagree with him to present coherent, evidence-based arguments. Which is good for all.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on September 30, 2021, 09:17:49 PM
I mean it's amusing that rocket keeps getting slapped around whenever he comes here and all.
But then I remember he is actually a "health care professional." And that's frightening.
Doesn't it kinda make you wonder what sources he uses to to base his own practice methods?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 01, 2021, 06:18:56 AM
Doesn't it kinda make you wonder what sources he uses to to base his own practice methods?
I just wish he'd shut up and do all the things he promotes instead of taking the vaccine like a coward.
I know a couple of people who have done plaster casts of their teeth and do their own dental work because they don't trust dentists.
Dentists were the first avenue for implanting the microchips the government uses for mind control, aina?
Here is an actual reputable pharmaceutical company doing an actual reputable scientific study that seems to actually reduce the worst effects of COVID-19.
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-science-business-health-pandemics-a9a2245fdcee324f6bbd776a0fffcc60
WASHINGTON (AP) — Merck & Co. said Friday that its experimental COVID-19 pill reduced hospitalizations and deaths by half in people recently infected with the coronavirus and that it would soon ask health officials in the U.S. and around the world to authorize its use.
If cleared, Merck's drug would be the first pill shown to treat COVID-19, a potentially major advance in efforts to fight the pandemic. All COVID-19 therapies now authorized in the U.S. require an IV or injection.
This looks like great news.
But on the down side, it won't de-worm your horses.
Big Pharma. Of course they did this now. They know ivermectin is a threat to their profits. 'WE' kNoW bETter.
I'll get my medical advice from Tucker and Laura or Newsmax, thank you very much
I read on the internet that the pill is just horse paste in pill form. Proves it works!
Quote from: tower912 on October 01, 2021, 06:45:29 AM
I know a couple of people who have done plaster casts of their teeth and do their own dental work because they don't trust dentists.
Dentists were the first avenue for implanting the microchips the government uses for mind control, aina?
Isn't that how we are mindlessly programmed to see them every 6 months?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 01, 2021, 06:18:56 AM
Doesn't it kinda make you wonder what sources he uses to to base his own practice methods?
Whatever BIG TOOTHCARE sales man drops off the bigger perk for the year.
Since Viper was spouting some misinformation about vaccines not preventing transmission , they do not completely prevent transmission, but do significantly reduce it.
Research articles:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2107717
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2107058
Article from The Atlantic:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/620161/
Viper if you can PM me your experts' info, so I can pass this on, that would be great.
Quote from: MUDPT on October 04, 2021, 08:01:14 AM
Since Viper was spouting some misinformation about vaccines not preventing transmission , they do not completely prevent transmission, but do significantly reduce it.
I think the proliferation of smallpox and polio here in this country prove Viper is right ::)
It's too bad there is no vaccine for ignorance.
I used to think that a Marquette education was a vaccination against ignorance. I have been disabused of that notion
Quote from: tower912 on October 04, 2021, 12:15:15 PM
I used to think that a Marquette education was a vaccination against ignorance. I have been disabused of that notion
There's a horse de-wormer you can take to clear your brain from any misconceptions.
Hahahaha I hope this happens to every anti vax pro athlete.
https://www.si.com/hockey/news/oilers-forward-josh-archibald-out-indefinitely-with-myocarditis?utm_source=reddit.com
Quote from: Jockey on October 04, 2021, 12:10:00 PM
I think the proliferation of smallpox and polio here in this country prove Viper is right ::)
It's too bad there is no vaccine for ignorance.
How long did it take states to start mandating the polio vaccine for school attendance? Slightly disingenuous to suggest that historically as vaccines were approved it went right to full throated support and public acceptance.
I believe you live in Wisconsin Jockey, right? Polio vaccine was approved in 1955 and not until 20 years later did it became mandatory to attend public schools in Wisconsin.
Not sure the reasoning for that but I don't think there will be too many folks against the c19 vaccine if it shows a 20 year history of being safe/efficacious.
In reading about vaccine requirements from state to state I was surprised at the variability in who requires what and how only a handful require the flu vaccine.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 04, 2021, 02:14:28 PM
Hahahaha I hope this happens to every anti vax pro athlete.
https://www.si.com/hockey/news/oilers-forward-josh-archibald-out-indefinitely-with-myocarditis?utm_source=reddit.com
With all due respect, thats a pretty gross mentality. But I'm sure Jockey will high five you for it.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 04, 2021, 02:39:43 PM
With all due respect, thats a pretty gross mentality. But I'm sure Jockey will high five you for it.
Most cases of Myocarditis are easily treatable with aspirin and down time. I don't wish for any severe cases that need open heart surgery or anything. Sorry but I'm at a point where people like Kyrie for example can finally get hit with some type of repercussions that will keep from doing what they love. They're professional athletes because their god/genetic given gifts, don't protect those gifts from preventable diseases and use your influencer status to get people to also not protect themselves, well then the deal with the fallout of the disease and be replaced by younger hungry safe players.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 04, 2021, 02:51:27 PM
Most cases of Myocarditis are easily treatable with aspirin and down time. I don't wish for any severe cases that need open heart surgery or anything. Sorry but I'm at a point where people like Kyrie for example can finally get hit with some type of repercussions that will keep from doing what they love. They're professional athletes because their god/genetic given gifts, don't protect those gifts from preventable diseases and use your influencer status to get people to also not protect themselves, well then the deal with the fallout of the disease and be replaced by younger hungry safe players.
Fair enough. I just feel like myocarditis has been something that people here frequently bring up when they're like "DEATH ISN'T THE ONLY NEGATIVE OUTCOME" and now its being snickered at.
Listen, I get the schadenfraude for the people who are spreading misinformation, harassing medical professionals, spewing BS on talk radio, etc... But for normal people, athlete/celeb or not who choose not to get the vaccine, even though I disagree with them, I can't find it in me to muster up glee for a negative outcome. Cause I don't personally think it does anything to help the vaccination effort at this point.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 04, 2021, 04:17:27 PM
Fair enough. I just feel like myocarditis has been something that people here frequently bring up when they're like "DEATH ISN'T THE ONLY NEGATIVE OUTCOME" and now its being snickered at.
Listen, I get the schadenfraude for the people who are spreading misinformation, harassing medical professionals, spewing BS on talk radio, etc... But for normal people, athlete/celeb or not who choose not to get the vaccine, even though I disagree with them, I can't find it in me to muster up glee for a negative outcome. Cause I don't personally think it does anything to help the vaccination effort at this point.
I mean for your average non millionaire the extra doc appointments and treatment are a big setback financially and a big pain in the a$$ for staying healthy. Coming at it from those reasons, they don't apply as well to an ignorant pro athlete. Again I wish nobody gets the level of open heart surgery, but to see a Kyrie or his ilk complain about being super out of shape and replaced after sitting taking aspirin all year? I'd muster some glee.
Maybe they learn a lesson and convince a handful of their diligent followers to get vaccinated to who convince their immediate family? If so then the negative outcome is worth it. If not, then it wasn't worth anything other than humbling a person who believes themselves to always be the smartest in the room. 🤗
Lindsay Graham greeted with boos for suggesting people "think about" getting the vaccine.
Part of me laughs watching the monster they created devour them, and itself.
Part of me says "We're doomed."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/republicans-shout-down-rep-lindsey-graham-for-pushing-vaccine
Quote from: JWags85 on October 04, 2021, 04:17:27 PM
But for normal people, athlete/celeb or not who choose not to get the vaccine, even though I disagree with them, I can't find it in me to muster up glee for a negative outcome.
You are in the minority around here. For many, it's never been about health.
It was about health for me. I had a relatively bad case, I knew people who had died. It never occurred to me that even a vaccine could become political. In hindsight, I failed to learn the lessons of history.
Quote from: CountryRoads on October 04, 2021, 04:59:48 PM
You are in the minority around here. For many, it's never been about health.
What has it been about?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 01, 2021, 06:18:56 AM
Doesn't it kinda make you wonder what sources he uses to to base his own practice methods?
i'd like to think 36 years of private practice and ownership speaks for itself. just because i challenge all you "experts" doesn't mean i'm wrong. you watch, the jury is still out on A LOT of treatments going on. it might be a year or 2 and i'm sure you are going to see a big shift in paradigms of covid treatments
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 04, 2021, 06:13:11 PM
i'd like to think 36 years of private practice and ownership speaks for itself. just because i challenge all you "experts" doesn't mean i'm wrong. you watch, the jury is still out on A LOT of treatments going on. it might be a year or 2 and i'm sure you are going to see a big shift in paradigms of covid treatments
Narrator: "It doesn't"
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 04, 2021, 06:15:58 PM
Narrator: "It doesn't"
6 women, babies dead. Botched circumcisions. Catastrophic injuries. Why this baby doctor practiced for decades
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/2021/09/23/west-palm-ob-gyn-malpractice-lawsuits-moms-babies-died-circumcisions-botched-doctor-kept-practicing/5524867001/
Over the 33 years that he practiced medicine in Palm Beach County, records examined by The Palm Beach Post link him to 14 serious injuries of women and children, including six deaths. Lopez has been named in four disciplinary cases and nine malpractice actions, including suits over the deaths of two infants, an injury to another and an 18-year-old mother who died in the 1990s.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 04, 2021, 06:13:11 PM
you watch, the jury is still out on A LOT of treatments going on. it might be a year or 2 and i'm sure you are going to see a big shift in paradigms of covid treatments
That really depends on whether the mindset of the public changes. There is already a drug in the pipeline to treat the infected which should be cleared for use by the end of the year. Nasal sprays. Patches. And the advances in scientific knowledge and entirely new ways to create vaccines are here. So, yes, entirely new treatment options for COVID will be available in the next couple of years. But the rubes will have to choose science over Facebook.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 04, 2021, 06:13:11 PM
i'd like to think 36 years of private practice and ownership speaks for itself. just because i challenge all you "experts" doesn't mean i'm wrong. you watch, the jury is still out on A LOT of treatments going on. it might be a year or 2 and i'm sure you are going to see a big shift in paradigms of covid treatments
4 of 10
Nice use of air quotes but lack of absurd links and conspiracy theories brings it way down. You can do better.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 04, 2021, 06:31:13 PM
4 of 10
Nice use of air quotes but lack of absurd links and conspiracy theories brings it way down. You can do better.
These have become my favorite posts on Scoop. Thank you.
Quote from: CountryRoads on October 04, 2021, 04:59:48 PM
You are in the minority around here. For many, it's never been about health.
Don't be sad. Here, this is something that will cheer you up: vaccine protesters attacking a mobile testing site. Right up your alley.
https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1445123241413160963
Quote from: pbiflyer on October 04, 2021, 06:20:20 PM
6 women, babies dead. Botched circumcisions. Catastrophic injuries. Why this baby doctor practiced for decades
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/2021/09/23/west-palm-ob-gyn-malpractice-lawsuits-moms-babies-died-circumcisions-botched-doctor-kept-practicing/5524867001/
Over the 33 years that he practiced medicine in Palm Beach County, records examined by The Palm Beach Post link him to 14 serious injuries of women and children, including six deaths. Lopez has been named in four disciplinary cases and nine malpractice actions, including suits over the deaths of two infants, an injury to another and an 18-year-old mother who died in the 1990s.
Devils advocate, unless rocket has myriad malpractice cases and severe negative outcomes like this hack, its not exactly a like for like.
Ben Carson proved himself to be fairly incompetent in the political realm or with his opinions on foreign policy or the like, but using that to discredit him as a neurosurgeon would be wildly offbase and incorrect.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on October 04, 2021, 06:34:02 PM
These have become my favorite posts on Scoop. Thank you.
Ditto for me
I was laughing out loud typing this.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 04, 2021, 02:39:43 PM
With all due respect, thats a pretty gross mentality. But I'm sure Jockey will high five you for it.
You are almost as good as Chico at misrepresenting my posts.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 04, 2021, 06:13:11 PM
i'd like to think 36 years of private practice and ownership speaks for itself. just because i challenge all you "experts" doesn't mean i'm wrong. you watch, the jury is still out on A LOT of treatments going on. it might be a year or 2 and i'm sure you are going to see a big shift in paradigms of covid treatments
It does.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 04, 2021, 06:13:11 PM
i'd like to think 36 years of private practice and ownership speaks for itself. just because i challenge all you "experts" doesn't mean i'm wrong. you watch, the jury is still out on A LOT of treatments going on. it might be a year or 2 and i'm sure you are going to see a big shift in paradigms of covid treatments
The 36 years of practice as a dentist, makes you nothing in the treatment of COVID.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 04, 2021, 07:34:56 PM
Devils advocate, unless rocket has myriad malpractice cases and severe negative outcomes like this hack, its not exactly a like for like.
Ben Carson proved himself to be fairly incompetent in the political realm or with his opinions on foreign policy or the like, but using that to discredit him as a neurosurgeon would be wildly offbase and incorrect.
All I am pointing out is longevity does not imply excellence.
"Some Catholics around the country are claiming religious exemptions for the Covid vaccine. Because there's nothing more Catholic than letting someone else die for your sins."
— Colin Jost, SNL Weekend Update
Quote from: pbiflyer on October 04, 2021, 08:57:47 PM
All I am pointing out is longevity does not imply excellence.
Tell that to unanimous first ballout HOFer Jamie Moyer
Quote from: MU82 on October 04, 2021, 09:29:07 PM
"Some Catholics around the country are claiming religious exemptions for the Covid vaccine. Because there's nothing more Catholic than letting someone else die for your sins."
— Colin Jost, SNL Weekend Update
That would be a tough sell given that the Pope himself has expressly communicated that everyone should get the vaccine.
How does that work legally, anyway? Can someone claim a religious exemption and their school/HR Department can say, "That's bullsh!t. There is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that would prevent you from getting the vaccine"? Or once someone says, "It's against my religion", they're automatically bulletproof?
Quote from: warriorchick on October 05, 2021, 08:09:24 AM
How does that work legally, anyway? Can someone claim a religious exemption and their school/HR Department can say, "That's bullsh!t. There is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that would prevent you from getting the vaccine"? Or once someone says, "It's against my religion", they're automatically bulletproof?
The former.
Part of this is, well, duh.
But what's up with Florida? I would never accuse that state of fudging COVID-related stats, but there's something unusual here.
https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-deaths-among-older-adults-during-the-delta-surge-were-higher-in-states-with-lower-vaccination-rates/
Quote from: warriorchick on October 05, 2021, 08:09:24 AM
That would be a tough sell given that the Pope himself has expressly communicated that everyone should get the vaccine.
How does that work legally, anyway? Can someone claim a religious exemption and their school/HR Department can say, "That's bullsh!t. There is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that would prevent you from getting the vaccine"? Or once someone says, "It's against my religion", they're automatically bulletproof?
Google Rad Trad or radical traditionalist Catholics.
It's scary. And these are the anti-vax Catholics.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 05, 2021, 08:43:15 AM
Part of this is, well, duh.
But what's up with Florida? I would never accuse that state of fudging COVID-related stats, but there's something unusual here.
https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-deaths-among-older-adults-during-the-delta-surge-were-higher-in-states-with-lower-vaccination-rates/
Pretty simple. Florida did everything it could to foster the rampant spread of COVID within its state. That led to more infections, including in the 65+ crowd. Lots of unnecessary deaths. Florida showing that DeSantis is killing his own people.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 05, 2021, 10:21:20 AM
Google Rad Trad or radical traditionalist Catholics.
It's scary. And these are the anti-vax Catholics.
Yep. Our very own Taliban.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 05, 2021, 08:09:24 AM
That would be a tough sell given that the Pope himself has expressly communicated that everyone should get the vaccine.
How does that work legally, anyway? Can someone claim a religious exemption and their school/HR Department can say, "That's bullsh!t. There is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that would prevent you from getting the vaccine"? Or once someone says, "It's against my religion", they're automatically bulletproof?
I would guess that very few catholics have religious objections. They have political objections, then lie about having a religious objection so that they can get away with being anti-vax.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 05, 2021, 10:21:20 AM
Google Rad Trad or radical traditionalist Catholics.
It's scary. And these are the anti-vax Catholics.
never run into one of these in the wild. My guess is in raw numbers we're talking a fringe of a fringe.
<there are dozens of us, dozens> meme.
joking aside, I'm in favor of launching all theocrats into the sun, especially those who claim to share my faith (but in practice do no such thing).
Quote from: forgetful on October 05, 2021, 10:23:46 AM
Pretty simple. Florida did everything it could to foster the rampant spread of COVID within its state. That led to more infections, including in the 65+ crowd. Lots of unnecessary deaths. Florida showing that DeSantis is killing his own people.
I think the more reasonable response would be the southern states got hit with the seasonality cycle of delta Covid first and now it's the northern regions turn. Look at what's going on in Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maine and the northeastern region in general who have the highest vaccination rates in the country yet are now seeing record surges, worse then even the fall/winter of 2020.
Saw yesterday Wisconsin has one of the highest % increase in positive cases in the country right now. It's just our turn I guess. Florida has seen a dramatic decrease in the last couple weeks without any drastic policies implemented or crazy change in vaccination status.
It's long past time to realize that there's little federal, state, or local officials can do to affect the situation on the ground. Take personal responsibility to get vaccinated and if you don't want to do that hopefully you're not obese, eating a healthy diet, and loading up on vitamin c/d, zinc, etc to give yourself the best chance at surviving the thing.
huh, guess Wisconsin's got some roots in this traditionalist heresy business.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_Pulvermacher
who knew?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 05, 2021, 10:35:57 AM
I think the more reasonable response would be the southern states got hit with the seasonality cycle of delta Covid first and now it's the northern regions turn. Look at what's going on in Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maine and the northeastern region in general who have the highest vaccination rates in the country yet are now seeing record surges, worse then even the fall/winter of 2020.
Any evidence to support this?
If you look at the graph included with my link, your argument doesn't hold up. Florida had a significantly higher death rate than other southern states, including those with much lower vaccination rates, most notably its closest neighbor, Georgia.
If this is a "southern cycle" thing, and not a Florida thing, explain why Florida's figures don't align with its neighbors.
As for this northeast surge you speak of, citation needed.
According to various state dashboards, case counts are actually falling in these states and nowhere near their peak.
Massachusetts peaked with a 9,000 case day in January. Its high during the most recent surge was 2,578 on Sept. 7. That figure was down to 995 on Friday, and much lower over the weekend.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/covid-19-response-reporting#covid-19-interactive-data-dashboard-
Connecticut peaked with 3,304 daily cases on Jan. 5. The most recent surge saw a peak of 686 on Sept. 7. On Oct. 1, it was 311.
https://data.ct.gov/stories/s/COVID-19-Daily-Report/q5as-kyim/
Vermont did see a spike in mid-September, but case numbers have fallen significantly since then and below earlier peaks in January and March.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/vermont/
None of this indicates that it's these states turn in some kind of COVID cycle. Rather, it indicates they experienced the same late summer Delta surge as the rest of the country, just not nearly as bad as some other states.
Quote from: jficke13 on October 05, 2021, 10:34:26 AM
never run into one of these in the wild. My guess is in raw numbers we're talking a fringe of a fringe.
<there are dozens of us, dozens> meme.
joking aside, I'm in favor of launching all theocrats into the sun, especially those who claim to share my faith (but in practice do no such thing).
They are taking over the largest parish in Madison, including a Marquette educated pastor that is a huge proponent of this "brand" of Catholicism.
Catholic Taliban is what we call it too. Needless to say, there are a lot of parishless Catholics in Madison right now.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 05, 2021, 11:42:11 AM
They are taking over the largest parish in Madison, including a Marquette educated pastor that is a huge proponent of this "brand" of Catholicism.
Catholic Taliban is what we call it too. Needless to say, there are a lot of parishless Catholics in Madison right now.
well I guess I was wrong. What parish in Madison?
Quote from: warriorchick on October 05, 2021, 08:09:24 AM
That would be a tough sell given that the Pope himself has expressly communicated that everyone should get the vaccine.
How does that work legally, anyway? Can someone claim a religious exemption and their school/HR Department can say, "That's bullsh!t. There is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that would prevent you from getting the vaccine"? Or once someone says, "It's against my religion", they're automatically bulletproof?
The largest hospital system in NC is also one of the state's largest employers. They have rejected almost all claims for religious exemptions. Thankfully, because they're bogus.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 05, 2021, 10:57:04 AM
Any evidence to support this?
If you look at the graph included with my link, your argument doesn't hold up. Florida had a significantly higher death rate than other southern states, including those with much lower vaccination rates, most notably its closest neighbor, Georgia.
If this is a "southern cycle" thing, and not a Florida thing, explain why Florida's figures don't align with its neighbors.
As for this northeast surge you speak of, citation needed.
According to various state dashboards, case counts are actually falling in these states and nowhere near their peak.
Massachusetts peaked with a 9,000 case day in January. Its high during the most recent surge was 2,578 on Sept. 7. That figure was down to 995 on Friday, and much lower over the weekend.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/covid-19-response-reporting#covid-19-interactive-data-dashboard-
Connecticut peaked with 3,304 daily cases on Jan. 5. The most recent surge saw a peak of 686 on Sept. 7. On Oct. 1, it was 311.
https://data.ct.gov/stories/s/COVID-19-Daily-Report/q5as-kyim/
Vermont did see a spike in mid-September, but case numbers have fallen significantly since then and below earlier peaks in January and March.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/vermont/
None of this indicates that it's these states turn in some kind of COVID cycle. Rather, it indicates they experienced the same late summer Delta surge as the rest of the country, just not nearly as bad as some other states.
All of this. Also, Vermont despite a mid September spike still has amongst the lowest deaths per capita in the nation...because of its vaccination rate.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 05, 2021, 10:35:57 AM
I think the more reasonable response would be the southern states got hit with the seasonality cycle of delta Covid first and now it's the northern regions turn. Look at what's going on in Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maine and the northeastern region in general who have the highest vaccination rates in the country yet are now seeing record surges, worse then even the fall/winter of 2020.
Saw yesterday Wisconsin has one of the highest % increase in positive cases in the country right now. It's just our turn I guess. Florida has seen a dramatic decrease in the last couple weeks without any drastic policies implemented or crazy change in vaccination status.
It's long past time to realize that there's little federal, state, or local officials can do to affect the situation on the ground. Take personal responsibility to get vaccinated and if you don't want to do that hopefully you're not obese, eating a healthy diet, and loading up on vitamin c/d, zinc, etc to give yourself the best chance at surviving the thing.
I live in Connecticut.
What surge?!? There may have been a "statistical" increase of cases, but I wouldn't call it anywhere near a surge let alone any different than it's been the last four months.
Two Texas university employees asked students if they were vaccinated. They were fired weeks later.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/05/lamar-university-vaccination-fired/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34e1aa5%2F615c77ec9d2fda9d41fde1ff%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F52%2F74%2F615c77ec9d2fda9d41fde1ff
Meanwhile, in Tennessee, another governor actively and aggressively works to undermine life-saving vaccines and masks.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/10/04/kids-covid-cases-tennessee/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34e1bb7%2F615c77ec9d2fda9d41fde1ff%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F59%2F74%2F615c77ec9d2fda9d41fde1ff
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 05, 2021, 12:46:30 PM
I live in Connecticut.
What surge?!? There may have been a "statistical" increase of cases, but I wouldn't call it anywhere near a surge let alone any different than it's been the last four months.
If you want to categorize going from 70 cases a day to 450-500 a day over the last 4 months a statistical increase that's fair I'm just cautioning of what the fall/winter months might have in store for the northeast/Midwest. CT's 7 day avg of positive cases in early October of this year is higher then at the same point in October of 2020, same with 7 day avg of deaths in CT (4x's higher now then same time last year) so🤞it doesn't follow the same seasonality trend line as 12 months ago.
I should have been more clear in my original post. Hovering around record highs/breaking record highs despite a great vaccination rate are being seen in Vermont and Maine with worrying trends in CT and MA along with WI, MN, MI and those states just coming up on their indoor seasons. I should have been more careful, my apologies.
Quote from: forgetful on October 05, 2021, 12:33:53 PM
All of this. Also, Vermont despite a mid September spike still has amongst the lowest deaths per capita in the nation...because of its vaccination rate.
Vermont's death rate is unbelievably good, has been from the tip. 7 day avg currently sitting at 2 and at no point during this mess did their 7 day avg go above a whopping 3. Something in the water out there I guess.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 05, 2021, 01:59:55 PM
If you want to categorize going from 70 cases a day to 450-500 a day over the last 4 months a statistical increase that's fair I'm just cautioning of what the fall/winter months might have in store for the northeast/Midwest. CT's 7 day avg of positive cases in early October of this year is higher then at the same point in October of 2020, same with 7 day avg of deaths in CT (4x's higher now then same time last year) so🤞it doesn't follow the same seasonality trend line as 12 months ago.
I should have been more clear in my original post. Hovering around record highs/breaking record highs despite a great vaccination rate are being seen in Vermont and Maine with worrying trends in CT and MA along with WI, MN, MI and those states just coming up on their indoor seasons. I should have been more careful, my apologies.
You're somewhat correct. Case counts, positivity rates, etc., are up in many places, and that's worrying. But the data seems to show - at least as best as I can tell - that these increases are coincidental to the even larger increases in the south, not subsequent to them. The idea that COVID is some kind of traveling circus moving from one part of the country to the next, and that every region gets its "turn," doesn't appear to be accurate.
But going back to Florida, if this is indeed a regional thing, why is Florida so much worse than its neighbors, even with better vaccination rates?
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 05, 2021, 01:59:55 PM
If you want to categorize going from 70 cases a day to 450-500 a day over the last 4 months a statistical increase that's fair I'm just cautioning of what the fall/winter months might have in store for the northeast/Midwest. CT's 7 day avg of positive cases in early October of this year is higher then at the same point in October of 2020, same with 7 day avg of deaths in CT (4x's higher now then same time last year) so🤞it doesn't follow the same seasonality trend line as 12 months ago.
I should have been more clear in my original post. Hovering around record highs/breaking record highs despite a great vaccination rate are being seen in Vermont and Maine with worrying trends in CT and MA along with WI, MN, MI and those states just coming up on their indoor seasons. I should have been more careful, my apologies.
You're so disingenuous.
You have been since the beginning of this disease
Quote from: Pakuni on October 05, 2021, 02:18:59 PM
You're somewhat correct. Case counts, positivity rates, etc., are up in many places, and that's worrying. But the data seems to show - at least as best as I can tell - that these increases are coincidental to the even larger increases in the south, not subsequent to them. The idea that COVID is some kind of traveling circus moving from one part of the country to the next, and that every region gets its "turn," doesn't appear to be accurate.
But going back to Florida, if this is indeed a regional thing, why is Florida so much worse than its neighbors, even with better vaccination rates?
The Florida thing is interesting. I'm not smart enough to know why they got hit harder then surrounding states during Delta despite having a better vaccination % of their 65+. Maybe because it was really their first real surge so there was just a lot of vulnerable seniors out there who were susceptible and the other states didn't have as many vulnerable seniors cause of being hit harder in previous surges 🤷♂️ Just a guess?
When you look at deaths per million YTD from the start of this thing some of those neighboring states have had worst outcomes in totality (Louisiana/Mississippi) while the others (SC, GA, AK) have had very similar overall outcomes when compared to FL if you look outside of just the Delta window of July-October, if that makes sense.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts as to why, truthfully.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 05, 2021, 02:21:34 PM
You're so disingenuous.
You have been since the beginning of this disease
How so?
Vermont leaders actively and aggressively work to mitigate the worst effects of COVID-19 by promoting vaccinations, mask-wearing and, if necessary, mandates for both.
Florida leaders actively and aggressively work to undermine use of a life-saving vaccine, mock mask-wearing, and forbid local jurisdictions from initiating policies that would protect their residents from a deadly, highly contagious virus.
Yeah, it's a total mystery why Vermont's outcome has been so much better than Florida's.
Quote from: MU82 on October 05, 2021, 03:06:02 PM
Vermont leaders actively and aggressively work to mitigate the worst effects of COVID-19 by promoting vaccinations, mask-wearing and, if necessary, mandates for both.
Florida leaders actively and aggressively work to undermine use of a life-saving vaccine, mock mask-wearing, and forbid local jurisdictions from initiating policies that would protect their residents from a deadly, highly contagious virus.
Yeah, it's a total mystery why Vermont's outcome has been so much better than Florida's.
Not what we were talking about Olberman.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 05, 2021, 03:07:30 PM
Not what we were talking about Olberman.
Are your maladjusted antisocial tendencies due to that of a beserk pituitary gland?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 05, 2021, 03:20:40 PM
Are your maladjusted antisocial tendencies due to that of a beserk pituitary gland?
You continue to be a very strange bird Rico
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 05, 2021, 02:52:31 PM
Would be interested to hear your thoughts as to why, truthfully.
I suspect a variety of factors.
- The nonchalance about the pandemic and outright hostility to safety measures - both from state authorities and citizens - almost certainly led to a greater number of transmissions.
- It was a hot and rainier-than-normal August, which kept more people indoors.
- While Florida's vaccine data appears good, it's probably not good enough for a state with so many elderly and vulnerable residents. 80 percent of the senior population in Florida and 80 percent of the senior population in Texas mean very different things.
- I do wonder, also, about the legitimacy of Florida's vaccine numbers. The state has proved itself not to be above fudging its COVID stats, and it's weird that Florida is such an outlier when it comes to the correlation between vaccinations and deaths.
Wow I never heard about the Wisconsin anti-pope who didn't think the anti Vatican II groups were traditional enough....
And then there's this Wisconsin priest - I actually listened to him totally downplay lynching in the Jim Crow era.... So thankful for my parish.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/parish/altman-controversial-wisconsin-priest-still-speaking-out-despite-limits-bishop
Quote from: Warriors4ever on October 05, 2021, 05:35:06 PM
Wow I never heard about the Wisconsin anti-pope who didn't think the anti Vatican II groups were traditional enough....
And then there's this Wisconsin priest - I actually listened to him totally downplay lynching in the Jim Crow era.... So thankful for my parish.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/parish/altman-controversial-wisconsin-priest-still-speaking-out-despite-limits-bishop
In terms of character, I rate him about equal to those priests that molested little boys.
That's disgusting. It's people like that which are why the church should pay taxes.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 05, 2021, 04:17:17 PM
I suspect a variety of factors.
- The nonchalance about the pandemic and outright hostility to safety measures - both from state authorities and citizens - almost certainly led to a greater number of transmissions.
- It was a hot and rainier-than-normal August, which kept more people indoors.
- While Florida's vaccine data appears good, it's probably not good enough for a state with so many elderly and vulnerable residents. 80 percent of the senior population in Florida and 80 percent of the senior population in Texas mean very different things.
- I do wonder, also, about the legitimacy of Florida's vaccine numbers. The state has proved itself not to be above fudging its COVID stats, and it's weird that Florida is such an outlier when it comes to the correlation between vaccinations and deaths.
Florida is the worst of the worst when it comes to anti vaxxers. They have been going to crowded venues, never wearing masks. To them it's a badge of honor to be in close contact with places where they could get covid. And they are not in the best of health.
We have a contractor that believed it was a hoax, caught covid, said it was the worst by far he'd ever felt, thought he might die. Recovered, still bad mouths the vax Ed and mask wearers. You can't fix stupid. And they live here, sadly.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 05, 2021, 03:07:30 PM
Not what we were talking about Olberman.
Tell us more about how wonderful those Texas and Florida governors are doing, Tucker!
Quote from: MU82 on October 05, 2021, 09:31:48 PM
Tell us more about how wonderful those Texas and Florida governors are doing, Tucker!
RFK Jr. says hi. Can't fix stupid on either side.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.pressconnects.com/amp/6003779001
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 05, 2021, 11:25:24 PM
RFK Jr. says hi. Can't fix stupid on either side.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.pressconnects.com/amp/6003779001
Yep, plenty of stoopid to go around on both sides. Tribalism, eh?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 05, 2021, 11:25:24 PM
RFK Jr. says hi. Can't fix stupid on either side.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.pressconnects.com/amp/6003779001
Yep, he's a nutbag when it comes to vaccines. He also isn't the governor of a state, but that doesn't excuse his nutbaggery. And of course, he's the exception on his side of the aisle; numerous GOP governors with actual power -- including those in America's second and third most populated states -- are actively, aggressively working to undermine efforts to keep our nation healthy.
Meanwhile ... vaccine mandates work ...
"I didn't want to do it. But I work for a company that mandates it and I had until September 30 to get it done or I'm out." -- ESPN's Sage Steele.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/idaho-lieutenant-governor-bans-vaccine-052122974.html
The Idaho lieutenant governor tries to emulate Florida and Texas every time the actual governor leaves the state.
I think they should be given what they want, and then immediately release them from the hospital so the can go to the tractor supply clinic.
Lawsuits demand Palm Beach County hospitals give Ivermectin to struggling COVID patients
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/10/06/families-covid-patients-push-hospitals-offer-ivermectin-patients/5991796001/
Six weeks after Tamara Drock was admitted to Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center, the 47-year-old Loxahatchee woman is in a medically induced coma and tethered to a ventilator.
It was an outcome that her husband, Ryan, tried to prevent.
"No ventilators," he said of his orders to the hospital staff.
Instead, he pushed them to give his wife Ivermectin, a drug that is approved to treat people with conditions caused by parasitic worms, but not for those ravaged by the coronavirus. Hospital officials refused.
Quote from: pbiflyer on October 06, 2021, 07:48:41 AM
I think they should be given what they want, and then immediately release them from the hospital so the can go to the tractor supply clinic.
Lawsuits demand Palm Beach County hospitals give Ivermectin to struggling COVID patients
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/10/06/families-covid-patients-push-hospitals-offer-ivermectin-patients/5991796001/
Six weeks after Tamara Drock was admitted to Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center, the 47-year-old Loxahatchee woman is in a medically induced coma and tethered to a ventilator.
It was an outcome that her husband, Ryan, tried to prevent.
"No ventilators," he said of his orders to the hospital staff.
Instead, he pushed them to give his wife Ivermectin, a drug that is approved to treat people with conditions caused by parasitic worms, but not for those ravaged by the coronavirus. Hospital officials refused.
If only roQQet ran that hospital ...
Quote from: pbiflyer on October 06, 2021, 07:48:41 AM
I think they should be given what they want, and then immediately release them from the hospital so the can go to the tractor supply clinic.
Lawsuits demand Palm Beach County hospitals give Ivermectin to struggling COVID patients
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/10/06/families-covid-patients-push-hospitals-offer-ivermectin-patients/5991796001/
Six weeks after Tamara Drock was admitted to Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center, the 47-year-old Loxahatchee woman is in a medically induced coma and tethered to a ventilator.
It was an outcome that her husband, Ryan, tried to prevent.
"No ventilators," he said of his orders to the hospital staff.
Instead, he pushed them to give his wife Ivermectin, a drug that is approved to treat people with conditions caused by parasitic worms, but not for those ravaged by the coronavirus. Hospital officials refused.
If the wife and husband both said no vent, that should have been respected
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 06, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
If the wife and husband both said no vent, that should have been respected
Cmon...how is the hospital supposed to get its higher reimbursement rate if they take that approach?
I would actually agree that her wishes should be respected, though the article doesn't say whether she ended up agreeing to it or not.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on October 06, 2021, 11:33:54 AM
I would actually agree that her wishes should be respected, though the article doesn't say whether she ended up agreeing to it or not.
Agreed. It also mentions that she wasn't vaccinated, but sounds like he was (not really specified). Yet he credits ivermectin with saving his life.
Also this, her treatment wasn't robust?
QuoteHe said he doesn't know why she didn't respond to the typical treatment protocols, including being given the anti-viral Remdesivir, steroids and antibiotics. But, he said, he suspects her treatment was less robust because she hadn't received a COVID-19 shot.
"It seemed they were against her when they found out she wasn't vaccinated," he said of his impression of those who treated his wife at the hospital, owned by Tenet Healthcare.
I thought everyone in Florida was getting monoclonal antibodies.
Agree that nobody should be put on a ventilator if they specifically express their stance on it beforehand. I'm not certain that was the case with these Fla. mouth-breathers, though. A person saying her or his spouse wouldn't have wanted to be on a ventilator is not the same thing.
Quote from: MU82 on October 06, 2021, 03:32:15 PM
Agree that nobody should be put on a ventilator if they specifically express their stance on it beforehand. I'm not certain that was the case with these Fla. mouth-breathers, though. A person saying her or his spouse wouldn't have wanted to be on a ventilator is not the same thing.
An end of life directive and/or durable power of attorney would give the spouse the ability to make that decision.
IANAL
Those would come into play if the patient couldn't make the decision.
Two Charlotte-area cops died this week from COVID-19.
That police officers and firefighters are two groups so vax-resistent is one of the ongoing tragedies of this virus. Unnecessary deaths hitting the misinformed, the stubborn and/or the partisan.
Example #9,452 ... refusing to get vaccinated is NOT just a "personal choice" that affects only those who make it ...
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/state/north-carolina/article254580002.html
This family is devastated because their otherwise healthy 20-year-old son made the personal choice to not get vaccinated.
"I cannot explain the depth of the pain I felt as I watched the life drain from my baby's body over those five days. It was the hideous nightmare no mother should ever have to endure," said his mother. "Our family is devastated. There is a Tyler-sized hole in our hearts that can never be filled. Tyler's death was totally avoidable if he had been vaccinated. I am begging those who are unvaccinated to please act now. No family should ever have to go through this."
We can take comfort in knowing they all died doing what they loved....their own research.
Quote from: MU82 on October 07, 2021, 07:38:26 AM
Example #9,452 ... refusing to get vaccinated is NOT just a "personal choice" that affects only those who make it ...
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/state/north-carolina/article254580002.html
This family is devastated because their otherwise healthy 20-year-old son made the personal choice to not get vaccinated.
"I cannot explain the depth of the pain I felt as I watched the life drain from my baby's body over those five days. It was the hideous nightmare no mother should ever have to endure," said his mother. "Our family is devastated. There is a Tyler-sized hole in our hearts that can never be filled. Tyler's death was totally avoidable if he had been vaccinated. I am begging those who are unvaccinated to please act now. No family should ever have to go through this."
I can't imagine the heartbreak of losing a child at that age. But, a parent's #1 job is to keep their family safe. These parents failed at that job.
My wife and I had serious discussions with our kids, their spouses, and their kids to make sure they were vaccinated as soon as it was available for their age groups. A couple were initially a little resistant (with DiL very resistant), but they all ended up getting it when available.
There is so much that, as parents, we can't protect our family from. As a country, we need to quit letting our kids die from parental neglect.
I think that's being awfully harsh on the parents, who now have to wonder for the rest of the their lives if there was anything more they could have done.
Quote from: Warriors4ever on October 07, 2021, 04:40:24 PM
I think that's being awfully harsh on the parents, who now have to wonder for the rest of the their lives if there was anything more they could have done.
Maybe so, but people are getting such bad info that everything possible needs to be done. I certainly remember feeling pretty invincible at 20 years old. There's a good chance I would have needed someone to tell me in no uncertain terms to get the vaccine.
Quote from: MU82 on October 07, 2021, 07:28:54 AM
Two Charlotte-area cops died this week from COVID-19.
That police officers and firefighters are two groups so vax-resistent is one of the ongoing tragedies of this virus. Unnecessary deaths hitting the misinformed, the stubborn and/or the partisan.
COVID is *BY FAR* the biggest cop killer of 2020/2021. Doesn't sell as many thin blue line fascist-sympathy flags if they acknowledge that a virus is the enemy and not people tho.
Quote from: jficke13 on October 07, 2021, 08:06:42 PM
COVID is *BY FAR* the biggest cop killer of 2020/2021. Doesn't sell as many thin blue line fascist-sympathy flags if they acknowledge that a virus is the enemy and not people tho.
They could change the name to 'BLM virus' to make the thin blue line flag wavers happy.
If it became known that the virus had brown skin, heaven and earth would have been moved to stop it.
I remember people on Twitter like Rex Chapman recoiling in horror at the pictures of college football crowds. Some reporters posting they were literally in tears over such sites, predicting mass deaths from those gatherings. Well, even the NY Times is now saying they overreacted. Interesting choice of words that they lack of a surge is "unsatisfying."
From the NY Times "The Morning" email:
The September swoon
In the final weeks of this summer, with Covid-19 cases soaring and the rituals of autumn about to resume, many people assumed that the pandemic was on the verge of getting even worse.
Children were returning to classrooms five days a week. Broadway was reopening, and movie fans were heading to theaters again. In football stadiums across the country, fans were crowding together, usually unmasked, to cheer, sing and drink.
Given all of this — and the Delta variant — public discussion had a decidedly grim tone as the summer wound down. "It may only get worse," read a Politico headline. "The new school year is already a disaster," Business Insider reported.
The Washington Post cited an estimate that daily caseloads in the U.S. could reach 300,000 in August, higher than ever before. An expert quoted in The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette suggested the number could be higher yet. In The New York Times, an epidemiologist predicted that cases would rise in September because children were going back to school.
And what actually happened? Cases plunged.
The best measure of U.S. cases (a seven-day average, adjusted for holiday anomalies) peaked around 166,000 on Sept. 1 — the very day that seemed to augur a new surge. The number of new daily cases has since fallen almost 40 percent. Hospitalizations are down about 30 percent. Deaths, which typically change direction a few weeks after cases, have declined 13 percent since Sept. 20.
To be fair, forecasting a pandemic is inherently difficult. Virtually all of us, expert and not, have at times been surprised by Covid and incorrect about what was likely to happen next. It's unavoidable.
But there is a pattern to some of the recent mistakes, and understanding it can help us avoid repeating them.
Clutch chokers
Let's start by recalling a near-universal human trait: People are attracted to stories with heroes and villains. In these stories, the character flaws of the villains bring them down, allowing the decency of the heroes to triumph. The stories create a clear relationship between cause and effect. They make sense.
Books, television shows and movies are full of such stories. But for the purposes of understanding Covid, another form of mass entertainment — sports — is more useful.
Unlike novels or movies, sporting events involve true uncertainty. They are not part of a fictional world, with an author's predetermined ending. And as is the case with more important subjects, like a pandemic, sports are subject to a lot of predictions. For these reasons, social scientists, including Nobel laureates, sometimes study sports to learn lessons about the human mind.
If you turn on almost any sporting event, you will hear tales of heroes and villains. Sports broadcasters often use moralistic language — with concepts like "clutch" and "choke" — to explain outcomes. The broadcasters turn games into "referenda on character," as Joe Sheehan, who writes an excellent baseball newsletter, has put it. The athletes with strong character win, and the weak lose.
But anybody who watches sports for long enough will notice that these morality plays do not age well. Many athletes or coaches whom broadcasters long described as chokers (Clayton Kershaw, Andy Reid, Phil Mickelson, Alex Rodriguez, John Elway, Jana Novotná, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dan Jansen and many more) eventually won championships with clutch performances.
They did not have character flaws that prevented them from winning. They had been unlucky, or they had run into better competition. Until they didn't.
The real world often does not lend itself to moralistic fables.
A security guard at Walter Kerr Theater in New York City.Mark Sommerfeld for The New York Times
Vaccines and humility
In the case of Covid, the fable we tell ourselves is that our day-to-day behavior dictates the course of the pandemic. When we are good — by staying socially distant and wearing our masks — cases are supposed to fall. When we are bad — by eating in restaurants, hanging out with friends and going to a theater or football game — cases are supposed to rise.
The idea is especially alluring to anybody making an effort to be careful and feeling frustrated that so many other Americans seem blasé. After all, the Covid fable does have an some truth to it. Social distancing and masking do reduce the spread of the virus. They just are not as powerful as people often imagine.
The main determinants of Covid's spread (other than vaccines, which are extremely effective) remain mysterious. Some activities that seem dangerous, like in-person school or crowded outdoor gatherings, may not always be. As unsatisfying as it is, we do not know why cases have recently plunged. The decline is consistent with the fact that Covid surges often last for about two months before receding, but that's merely a description of the data, not a causal explanation.
"We still are really in the cave ages in terms of understanding how viruses emerge, how they spread, how they start and stop, why they do what they do," Michael Osterholm, an epidemiologist at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
In coming weeks and months, it is possible that the virus will surge again, maybe because of a new variant or because vaccine immunity will wane. It is also possible that the population has built up enough immunity — from both vaccines and previous infections — that Delta will have been the last major wave.
We don't know, and we do not have to pretend otherwise. We do not have to treat Covid as a facile referendum on virtue.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 08, 2021, 11:02:33 AM
I remember people on Twitter like Rex Chapman recoiling in horror at the pictures of college football crowds. Some reporters posting they were literally in tears over such sites, predicting mass deaths from those gatherings. Well, even the NY Times is now saying they overreacted. Interesting choice of words that they lack of a surge is "unsatisfying."
From the NY Times "The Morning" email:
The September swoon
In the final weeks of this summer, with Covid-19 cases soaring and the rituals of autumn about to resume, many people assumed that the pandemic was on the verge of getting even worse.
Children were returning to classrooms five days a week. Broadway was reopening, and movie fans were heading to theaters again. In football stadiums across the country, fans were crowding together, usually unmasked, to cheer, sing and drink.
Given all of this — and the Delta variant — public discussion had a decidedly grim tone as the summer wound down. "It may only get worse," read a Politico headline. "The new school year is already a disaster," Business Insider reported.
The Washington Post cited an estimate that daily caseloads in the U.S. could reach 300,000 in August, higher than ever before. An expert quoted in The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette suggested the number could be higher yet. In The New York Times, an epidemiologist predicted that cases would rise in September because children were going back to school.
And what actually happened? Cases plunged.
The best measure of U.S. cases (a seven-day average, adjusted for holiday anomalies) peaked around 166,000 on Sept. 1 — the very day that seemed to augur a new surge. The number of new daily cases has since fallen almost 40 percent. Hospitalizations are down about 30 percent. Deaths, which typically change direction a few weeks after cases, have declined 13 percent since Sept. 20.
To be fair, forecasting a pandemic is inherently difficult. Virtually all of us, expert and not, have at times been surprised by Covid and incorrect about what was likely to happen next. It's unavoidable.
But there is a pattern to some of the recent mistakes, and understanding it can help us avoid repeating them.
Clutch chokers
Let's start by recalling a near-universal human trait: People are attracted to stories with heroes and villains. In these stories, the character flaws of the villains bring them down, allowing the decency of the heroes to triumph. The stories create a clear relationship between cause and effect. They make sense.
Books, television shows and movies are full of such stories. But for the purposes of understanding Covid, another form of mass entertainment — sports — is more useful.
Unlike novels or movies, sporting events involve true uncertainty. They are not part of a fictional world, with an author's predetermined ending. And as is the case with more important subjects, like a pandemic, sports are subject to a lot of predictions. For these reasons, social scientists, including Nobel laureates, sometimes study sports to learn lessons about the human mind.
If you turn on almost any sporting event, you will hear tales of heroes and villains. Sports broadcasters often use moralistic language — with concepts like "clutch" and "choke" — to explain outcomes. The broadcasters turn games into "referenda on character," as Joe Sheehan, who writes an excellent baseball newsletter, has put it. The athletes with strong character win, and the weak lose.
But anybody who watches sports for long enough will notice that these morality plays do not age well. Many athletes or coaches whom broadcasters long described as chokers (Clayton Kershaw, Andy Reid, Phil Mickelson, Alex Rodriguez, John Elway, Jana Novotná, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dan Jansen and many more) eventually won championships with clutch performances.
They did not have character flaws that prevented them from winning. They had been unlucky, or they had run into better competition. Until they didn't.
The real world often does not lend itself to moralistic fables.
A security guard at Walter Kerr Theater in New York City.Mark Sommerfeld for The New York Times
Vaccines and humility
In the case of Covid, the fable we tell ourselves is that our day-to-day behavior dictates the course of the pandemic. When we are good — by staying socially distant and wearing our masks — cases are supposed to fall. When we are bad — by eating in restaurants, hanging out with friends and going to a theater or football game — cases are supposed to rise.
The idea is especially alluring to anybody making an effort to be careful and feeling frustrated that so many other Americans seem blasé. After all, the Covid fable does have an some truth to it. Social distancing and masking do reduce the spread of the virus. They just are not as powerful as people often imagine.
The main determinants of Covid's spread (other than vaccines, which are extremely effective) remain mysterious. Some activities that seem dangerous, like in-person school or crowded outdoor gatherings, may not always be. As unsatisfying as it is, we do not know why cases have recently plunged. The decline is consistent with the fact that Covid surges often last for about two months before receding, but that's merely a description of the data, not a causal explanation.
"We still are really in the cave ages in terms of understanding how viruses emerge, how they spread, how they start and stop, why they do what they do," Michael Osterholm, an epidemiologist at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
In coming weeks and months, it is possible that the virus will surge again, maybe because of a new variant or because vaccine immunity will wane. It is also possible that the population has built up enough immunity — from both vaccines and previous infections — that Delta will have been the last major wave.
We don't know, and we do not have to pretend otherwise. We do not have to treat Covid as a facile referendum on virtue.
This is what stood out to me most, the acknowledgment that even the experts are now admitting they don't know what the hell is going on more often then not but God forbid anyone questions the insane measures put in place over the last 18 months and if you do question them it can only be rooted in your racism, your stupidity, political beliefs, etc. You either follow suit with what you're told or you are a Covid denier and want to see people die.
"We still are really in the cave ages in terms of understanding how viruses emerge, how they spread, how they start and stop, why they do what they do," Michael Osterholm, an epidemiologist at the University of Minnesota, has told me.
In coming weeks and months, it is possible that the virus will surge again, maybe because of a new variant or because vaccine immunity will wane. It is also possible that the population has built up enough immunity — from both vaccines and previous infections — that Delta will have been the last major wave.
We don't know, and we do not have to pretend otherwise. We do not have to treat Covid as a facile referendum on virtue.[/b]
https://mobile.twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1446446619734519811
And then there is this. As I posted a few days ago, it took 20 years before Wisconsin required the polio vaccine for school attendance. I'm guessing they will never require the C19 vaccine much like they don't require the annual flu shot. Recommend sure but I'd be shocked if it's ever a requirement.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on October 08, 2021, 11:02:33 AM
I remember people on Twitter like Rex Chapman recoiling in horror at the pictures of college football crowds. Some reporters posting they were literally in tears over such sites, predicting mass deaths from those gatherings. Well, even the NY Times is now saying they overreacted. Interesting choice of words that they lack of a surge is "unsatisfying."
No, they did not say that the lack of a surge in cases is unsatisfying. They said it was unsatisfying to say we
don't know why cases recently plunged.
"As unsatisfying as it is, we do not know why cases have recently plunged."
I remember folks saying that covid was a cold/flu and it would be over with in a short time.
What's your unnatural carnal knowledgeing point?
Christ.
Stop worrying about who was right and who was wrong in the middle of the spread of an unknown disease. Focus on taking care of yourself - and others, if you're able.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 08, 2021, 11:52:14 AM
I remember folks saying that covid was a cold/flu and it would be over with in a short time.
What's your unnatural carnal knowledgeing point?
Christ.
Stop worrying about who was right and who was wrong in the middle of the spread of an unknown disease. Focus on taking care of yourself - and others, if you're able.
The point, as always, is trolling.
Probably running out of potential hosts. Vaccines are up. So many people had it recently that they probably won't get reinfected in the near term.
It will be a wonderful day when I know longer am doing CPR on patients with active COVID.
Quote from: jficke13 on October 08, 2021, 11:53:43 AM
The point, as always, is trolling.
Despite a safe, effective and free vaccine available since spring, nearly 75,000 people died last month because of COVID. But they think they're dunking on people because ... it wasn't even worse?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 08, 2021, 11:52:14 AM
I remember folks saying that covid was a cold/flu and it would be over with in a short time.
What's your unnatural carnal knowledgeing point?
Christ.
Stop worrying about who was right and who was wrong in the middle of the spread of an unknown disease. Focus on taking care of yourself - and others, if you're able.
Well there in lie's the problem.
People haven't been allowed to do what they feel is best for themselves. Mandatory masking, stay at home orders, vaccine mandates, social distancing, business and religious gatherings shut down, work from home, schools shut down, contact tracing that led to home isolation, cancelled elective surgeries, cancer screenings missed, domestic/international travel shutdown, friggin yellow police tape keeping kids off public playgrounds last fall/summer etc etc. You want to go trick or treating in 2020, not unless you want to kill grandma you little spoiled brat!!
It's pretty rich for you to say quit looking in the rear view to find fault with what we were forced to go through without evidence or input to now say just worry about yourself and do what you feel keeps you and others safe. With all due respect, pound sand buddy.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 08, 2021, 12:27:06 PM
Well there in lie's the problem.
People haven't been allowed to do what they feel is best for themselves. Mandatory masking, stay at home orders, vaccine mandates, social distancing, business and religious gatherings shut down, work from home, schools shut down, contact tracing that led to home isolation, cancelled elective surgeries, cancer screenings missed, domestic/international travel shutdown, friggin yellow police tape keeping kids off public playgrounds last fall/summer etc etc. You want to go trick or treating in 2020, not unless you want to kill grandma you little spoiled brat!!
It's pretty rich for you to say quit looking in the rear view to find fault with what we were forced to go through without evidence or input to now say just worry about yourself and do what you feel keeps you and others safe. With all due respect, pound sand buddy.
There are only two possible ways to interpret your every post on this topic since the beginning.
1. You're trolling. You don't actually mean any of the stuff you're saying. You're just saying it to 'own' someone.
2. You do believe the things that you are saying. If this is true, then the sole motivating philosophy of your life is that you ought to be able to do what you please, other people's interests be damned. That's certainly a choice, and you wouldn't be alone in espousing such a profoundly selfish philosophy in the country today. But don't pretend that you're some champion of higher principals. You just want to do what you want to do and not be interfered with by anything or anyone for any reason.
You'll forgive me if I find neither to reflect particularly well on you.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 08, 2021, 11:52:14 AM
I remember folks saying that covid was a cold/flu and it would be over with in a short time.
What's your unnatural carnal knowledgeing point?
Christ.
Stop worrying about who was right and who was wrong in the middle of the spread of an unknown disease. Focus on taking care of yourself - and others, if you're able.
And your example of people comparing it to the flu.....I remember a very reasonable/mature reaction to that with people saying ahhhh shucks who cares what those people say or think. All we need to worry about is doing what we feel keeps us and our loved ones safe. That's exactly how it went.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 08, 2021, 12:39:15 PM
And your example of people comparing it to the flu.....I remember a very reasonable/mature reaction to that with people saying ahhhh shucks who cares what those people say or think. All we need to worry about is doing what we feel keeps us and our loved ones safe. That's exactly how it went.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Sea_lion_head.jpg/620px-Sea_lion_head.jpg)
Quote from: jficke13 on October 08, 2021, 12:36:32 PM
There are only two possible ways to interpret your every post on this topic since the beginning.
1. You're trolling. You don't actually mean any of the stuff you're saying. You're just saying it to 'own' someone.
2. You do believe the things that you are saying. If this is true, then the sole motivating philosophy of your life is that you ought to be able to do what you please, other people's interests be damned. That's certainly a choice, and you wouldn't be alone in espousing such a profoundly selfish philosophy in the country today. But don't pretend that you're some champion of higher principals. You just want to do what you want to do and not be interfered with by anything or anyone for any reason.
You'll forgive me if I find neither to reflect particularly well on you.
I spend 99% of my day doing things I don't want to do buddy. So you can take your back seat psychoanalysis of my intentions and shove it.
Asking for competence from subject matter experts isn't asking too much. I followed all the bs rules that were put on us and am now fully vaccinated. I played by the rules and spent a good chunk of the last 2 years doing things I knew had little to no effect on the course of the pandemic and did it with a smile so to suggest I only want do things that I selfishly want to do could not be further from the truth.
Looking for accountability and a review on the crap of the last two years so we can better understand what not to do the next time we are faced with a pandemic is neither selfish nor a personal motivating philosophy. It's common sense.
Don't worry you've shown us who you are time and time again. You're a known quantity. Lucky for you you've got that pseudonym so you'll never face any consequences for loudly declaring your character to the world and the world finding it wanting.
Enjoy your trolling.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 08, 2021, 12:47:42 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Sea_lion_head.jpg/620px-Sea_lion_head.jpg)
Just once could you engage in an adult conversation. What are you, 11?
Quote from: jficke13 on October 08, 2021, 12:51:14 PM
Don't worry you've shown us who you are time and time again. You're a known quantity. Lucky for you you've got that pseudonym so you'll never face any consequences for loudly declaring your character to the world and the world finding it wanting.
Enjoy your trolling.
🤦♂️
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 08, 2021, 12:51:24 PM
Just once could you engage in an adult conversation. What are you, 11?
You go first.
700,000+ dead, but the real victim of the pandemic was trick or treating.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 08, 2021, 01:59:22 PM
You go first.
The ol "I'm rubber you're glue whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you" comeback.
My guess of 11 was a little generous it turns out.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 08, 2021, 02:04:22 PM
700,000+ dead, but the real victim of the pandemic was trick or treating.
Yup, that's what I said Pakuni. Good reading comprehension.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 08, 2021, 02:05:23 PM
The ol "I'm rubber you're glue whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you" comeback.
My guess of 11 was a little generous it turns out.
Your disingenuousness and lies were easy to peg early in your posting tenure. You haven't changed one iota. Disinformation, outright lies, and twisted information. Complete troll.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 08, 2021, 02:07:01 PM
Yup, that's what I said Pakuni. Good reading comprehension.
Pretty much,
And, thanks.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 08, 2021, 11:52:14 AM
I remember folks saying that covid was a cold/flu and it would be over with in a short time.
What's your unnatural carnal knowledgeing point?
Christ.
Stop worrying about who was right and who was wrong in the middle of the spread of an unknown disease. Focus on taking care of yourself - and others, if you're able.
This is not a troll, and my post history will show as much.
I don't disagree with your last point, but I think part of annoyance was so much of the hand wringing was beyond "take care of yourself and others". Jay Marriotti chastising UW and its fans for rejoicing in Jump Around at the first home game and directing ire at the Fox Sports crew for celebrating it cause it was a massive super spreader event that would lead to catastrophe. People cringing at any crowd shot with "we're still in a pandemic, SMH". Non-medical folks being the arbiter of what was, or wasn't, acceptable behavior (well after vaccines were available and administered to anyone who wanted them) and deeming any number of things as THE reason the pandemic was ongoing or why this would still be a crisis in perpetuity.
I don't care who is right or wrong, I don't need to point to the scoreboard to say "SEE THERE WAS NO OUTBREAK FROM EVENT X", but short of getting vaccinated, and making sure your entire sphere is vaccinated , and being exasperated by those who aren't...stop clutching pearls about what others are doing. Especially when you don't know their vaccination status. Its been a horrible 18 months, so I get why people still have scar tissue that makes them recoil at things that would have been terrible at this time last year...but the reality is things aren't nearly as dire.
I saw an opinion piece that said full stadiums this fall, even if they require vaccination for entry like Vegas, are still wildly unsafe and selfish. And it wasn't written by a medical professional. That sort of crap is ridiculous and exhausting.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 08, 2021, 02:47:39 PM
This is not a troll, and my post history will show as much.
I don't disagree with your last point, but I think part of annoyance was so much of the hand wringing was beyond "take care of yourself and others". Jay Marriotti chastising UW and its fans for rejoicing in Jump Around at the first home game and directing ire at the Fox Sports crew for celebrating it cause it was a massive super spreader event that would lead to catastrophe. People cringing at any crowd shot with "we're still in a pandemic, SMH". Non-medical folks being the arbiter of what was, or wasn't, acceptable behavior (well after vaccines were available and administered to anyone who wanted them) and deeming any number of things as THE reason the pandemic was ongoing or why this would still be a crisis in perpetuity.
I don't care who is right or wrong, I don't need to point to the scoreboard to say "SEE THERE WAS NO OUTBREAK FROM EVENT X", but short of getting vaccinated, and making sure your entire sphere is vaccinated , and being exasperated by those who aren't...stop clutching pearls about what others are doing. Especially when you don't know their vaccination status. Its been a horrible 18 months, so I get why people still have scar tissue that makes them recoil at things that would have been terrible at this time last year...but the reality is things aren't nearly as dire.
I saw an opinion piece that said full stadiums this fall, even if they require vaccination for entry like Vegas, are still wildly unsafe and selfish. And it wasn't written by a medical professional. That sort of crap is ridiculous and exhausting.
People in the media/public sphere can crow about whatever they want. Good or bad.
I'm just disappointed in those in this community that feel the need to keep score or monday-morning quarterback decisions. It leads to nothing.
If you've done your part and what was asked of you and continue to do so, good on you. If you don't like the rules/regulations put on your locality/state/nation, get rid of those folks next time an election comes around.
I've said that schools should be open. I've said that once people are vaccinated, they should be free to attend events. I've said private corporations should be able to set their own restrictions.
The majority of people's reactions is purely politically based. And that's significantly true for making judgements in hindsight.
Quote from: PaceArrow02 on October 08, 2021, 02:07:01 PM
Yup, that's what I said Pakuni. Good reading comprehension.
You only have 122 total posts that count and God only knows how many 1000's in this forum. You really don't come here for MU Bball as much as to troll in here.
Shouts to the county I live in with 99% partial vaccination rate for those eligible. (And surrounding counties including the District also doing very well)
https://dcist.com/story/21/10/11/montgomery-county-hits-99-partial-vaccination-rate-for-eligible-residents/
Quote from: JWags85 on October 08, 2021, 02:47:39 PM
This is not a troll, and my post history will show as much.
I don't disagree with your last point, but I think part of annoyance was so much of the hand wringing was beyond "take care of yourself and others". Jay Marriotti chastising UW and its fans for rejoicing in Jump Around at the first home game and directing ire at the Fox Sports crew for celebrating it cause it was a massive super spreader event that would lead to catastrophe. People cringing at any crowd shot with "we're still in a pandemic, SMH". Non-medical folks being the arbiter of what was, or wasn't, acceptable behavior (well after vaccines were available and administered to anyone who wanted them) and deeming any number of things as THE reason the pandemic was ongoing or why this would still be a crisis in perpetuity.
I don't care who is right or wrong, I don't need to point to the scoreboard to say "SEE THERE WAS NO OUTBREAK FROM EVENT X", but short of getting vaccinated, and making sure your entire sphere is vaccinated , and being exasperated by those who aren't...stop clutching pearls about what others are doing. Especially when you don't know their vaccination status. Its been a horrible 18 months, so I get why people still have scar tissue that makes them recoil at things that would have been terrible at this time last year...but the reality is things aren't nearly as dire.
I saw an opinion piece that said full stadiums this fall, even if they require vaccination for entry like Vegas, are still wildly unsafe and selfish. And it wasn't written by a medical professional. That sort of crap is ridiculous and exhausting.
I agree with most of this, but the middle paragraph. As a health care professional, the last 18 months have been exhausting. We see lots of chronic diseases (heart disease, alcoholism), which we cannot get sick from the patients. Even with my vaccination, there's still the thing in the back of your mind, that worries you when you are in that room. My county has the highest vaccination rates in the state. You would think that matters, but 40% of our patients in the hospital for COVID are from all over the state. So I do think it's important for others to get vaccinated and it's okay to be upset at people that refuse because of their own ignorance.
The Texas governor is an anti-business, anti-health hypocrite who kowtows to Trump and his base as he desperately tries to hold off challenges from far-right-wingers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/12/greg-abbott-bans-vaccine-mandate/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_the7&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34f3a94%2F61656ba79d2fda9d410b0590%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F12%2F38%2F61656ba79d2fda9d410b0590
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) on Monday banned any entity in his state — including private businesses — from mandating coronavirus vaccines for workers or customers, expanding prior executive orders from his office that prohibited state government entities from imposing similar requirements.
Abbott's move puts him at odds with some large corporations and with the Biden administration, which last month announced plans to require all employers with 100 or more workers to adopt vaccine mandates or testing regimens. A number of large private companies in Texas have issued mandates.
But hey, Abbott's all about personal choice ... unless it involves a woman and her reproductive system.
Pimping for the virus.
Quote from: MU82 on October 12, 2021, 06:38:11 AM
The Texas governor is an anti-business, anti-health hypocrite who kowtows to Trump and his base as he desperately tries to hold off challenges from far-right-wingers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/12/greg-abbott-bans-vaccine-mandate/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_the7&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34f3a94%2F61656ba79d2fda9d410b0590%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F12%2F38%2F61656ba79d2fda9d410b0590
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) on Monday banned any entity in his state — including private businesses — from mandating coronavirus vaccines for workers or customers, expanding prior executive orders from his office that prohibited state government entities from imposing similar requirements.
Abbott's move puts him at odds with some large corporations and with the Biden administration, which last month announced plans to require all employers with 100 or more workers to adopt vaccine mandates or testing regimens. A number of large private companies in Texas have issued mandates.
But hey, Abbott's all about personal choice ... unless it involves a woman and her reproductive system.
Not sure this would hold up in court but we will see.
I'm sure he is all for businesses turning away customers based on the owners religious beliefs though. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.
So could business owners say that their vaccine-mandates are religion-based? Would that work?
After all the Pope has stated people should get vaccinated....
Got my booster this morning. Hopefully I don't feel like doo doo tomorrow.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 12, 2021, 01:55:52 PM
Got my booster this morning. Hopefully I don't feel like doo doo tomorrow.
What'd you get? Did you Mix or match?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 12, 2021, 01:56:44 PM
What'd you get? Did you Mix or match?
Pfizer, same as my first two
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 12, 2021, 02:03:37 PM
Pfizer, same as my first two
I got my Pfizer booster last Friday. Same time in the day as my first two, and eight months after the second one. The side effects timing was nearly identical to the second, but the severity was not as bad. Some body aches and fatigue, but mostly a headache.
.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 12, 2021, 02:25:40 PM
Businesses don't need a reason to mandate vaccines. It's perfectly legal.
The hypocrite governors of Texas and Florida -- who criticize "big government" but have tried to use their executive power to make it illegal for private businesses to mandate vaccinations -- would disagree with you.
From the NYT:
Legal experts say that state actions do not override Biden's order. "Texas has just set itself up for a grand political show, but not a potentially legally sound initiative to stop all vaccine mandates," James Hodge, the director of the Center for Public Health Law and Policy at Arizona State University, told The Times. That said, for companies wary of vaccine mandates, perhaps because they fear that workers may quit, the Texas order could provide cover to delay an announcement.
Several big companies said they would defy the Texas order, including American Airlines and Southwest Airlines, which are based in the state. Boeing, which has offices in Texas, announced a vaccine mandate yesterday.
Let Abbott try to enforce his illegal order.
It's a pure political play on his part -- he's desperate to keep the Trump base, as he faces primary challenges from his right -- and he doesn't care if it results in illnesses and deaths.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/delta-add-200-monthly-health-insurance-charge-unvaccinated-staff-2021-08-25/
The article above from August .. Delta airlines added $200/month to unvaccinated employees' health insurance cost.
My company has two cost levels of insurance where you qualify for the low cost option by achieving health points (earned by getting a physical, walking, yoga, whatever.) Many plans, if you're a smoker, you pay more.
It seems that adding a surcharge for higher risk employees makes total sense and would be the preferred path instead of mandating/firing non-vaccinated workers.
A $2400 annual bite would be a huge self-inflicted sting, but OK.
Question .. has anyone seen data or other stories on companies raising insurance premiums for non-vaccinated employees? (Google failed me.)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 14, 2021, 11:49:29 AM
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/delta-add-200-monthly-health-insurance-charge-unvaccinated-staff-2021-08-25/
The article above from August .. Delta airlines added $200/month to unvaccinated employees' health insurance cost.
My company has two cost levels of insurance where you qualify for the low cost option by achieving health points (earned by getting a physical, walking, yoga, whatever.) Many plans, if you're a smoker, you pay more.
It seems that adding a surcharge for higher risk employees makes total sense and would be the preferred path instead of mandating/firing non-vaccinated workers.
A $2400 annual bite would be a huge self-inflicted sting, but OK.
Question .. has anyone seen data or other stories on companies raising insurance premiums for non-vaccinated employees? (Google failed me.)
Your solution makes a lot more sense than firing doctors and nurses who have been on the front lines for 20 months.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 12:00:39 PM
Your solution makes a lot more sense than firing doctors and nurses who have been on the front lines for 20 months.
I doubt that there are many of those that refuse to be vaccinated. And I wouldn't want to be treated by an unvaccinated medical professional. At the minimum, that should be disclosed to any patient they come in contact with.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 14, 2021, 12:15:36 PM
I doubt that there are many of those that refuse to be vaccinated.
You're kidding, right?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
You're kidding, right?
An AMA survey way back in June showed that 96 percent of doctors were fully vaccinated. Of the small percent not yet fully vaccinated, 45% planned to in the near future. So, the figure is probably closer to 98 percent today.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 12:28:35 PM
You're kidding, right?
You need better sources. Well publicized, but a relatively low number.
By any available statistics, almost no doctors have quit and a tiny percentage of nurses have quit due to COVID-19 vaccination requirements.
If I'm a patient in the hospital or a doctor's office or a physical therapy facility, etc, would I want to be treated by an unvaccinated doctor, PA, nurse practitioner, nurse or nursing assistant? Hell effen no! Who would?
The very few doctors and nurses who refuse to accept a proven life-saving vaccine for a highly contagious virus during a global pandemic should band together to form their own medical practices. They could cater exclusively to the unvaccinated. Given how many of the latter there are, those medical professionals could make quite a living.
Of course, lots of their customers would end up dead ... as would some of the medical professionals. But ... at least ... FREEDOM!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 12:00:39 PM
Your solution makes a lot more sense than firing doctors and nurses who have been on the front lines for 20 months.
Lol.
Healthcare companies see doctors and nurses as nothing more than a walking pair of scrubs. If they could get monkeys to do the job for half the cost, they would.
"Front line heroes" is bullshit
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 14, 2021, 01:52:08 PM
Lol.
Healthcare companies see doctors and nurses as nothing more than a walking pair of scrubs. If they could get monkeys to do the job for half the cost, they would.
"Front line heroes" is bullcrap
And how is that different than any for profit career?
'For-profit'? Teachers, first responders paramedics.... oh, wait, they are already criminally underpaying paramedics.
Quote from: tower912 on October 14, 2021, 02:54:18 PM
'For-profit'? Teachers, first responders paramedics.... oh, wait, they are already criminally underpaying paramedics.
Teachers? If they could hire a robot they would. First responders? I'd almost guarantee that in enough time we see AI in fire fighting technology, and AI in various aspects of policing causing downsizing in both. Paramedics? Same they've already come out with smart ambulances in certain areas.
Point is at almost any job we are all a walking pair of (insert here).
Quote from: Galway Eagle on October 14, 2021, 03:02:59 PM
Teachers? If they could hire a robot they would. First responders? I'd almost guarantee that in enough time we see AI in fire fighting technology, and AI in various aspects of policing causing downsizing in both. Paramedics? Same they've already come out with smart ambulances in certain areas.
Point is at almost any job we are all a walking pair of (insert here).
I was just responding to Lenny pointing out how medical professionals have been at the "front lines" and so should be respected more. Healthcare employers couldn't care less about individual doctors and nurses - front line or otherwise. All the PR in the last 18 months has been a joke to those working in the field.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 14, 2021, 03:29:10 PM
I was just responding to Lenny pointing out how medical professionals have been at the "front lines" and so should be respected more. Healthcare employers couldn't care less about individual doctors and nurses - front line or otherwise. All the PR in the last 18 months has been a joke to those working in the field.
[/quote}
I was extending that notion.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 14, 2021, 12:35:30 PM
An AMA survey way back in June showed that 96 percent of doctors were fully vaccinated. Of the small percent not yet fully vaccinated, 45% planned to in the near future. So, the figure is probably closer to 98 percent today.
And nurses?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 04:07:44 PM
And nurses?
you're not really going to bemoan nurses who don't believe in, or ignoring, medical science losing their jobs are you?
Quote from: naginiF on October 14, 2021, 04:12:20 PM
you're not really going to bemoan nurses who don't believe in, or ignoring, medical science losing their jobs are you?
Simplistic generalization, but why not?
Better get vaccinated. 1. So you don't get fired. 2. To lessen the risk of going to the understaffed hospitals.
COVID is responsible for 62% of police officer deaths over the last year and a half. Head of the Chicago FOP wants his members to fight the vaccine mandate.
So
Much
Dumb.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 04:39:01 PM
Simplistic generalization, but why not?
because a) it's their choice and b) a significant portion of a nurses job is understanding and following medical science - not doing so indicates they are not fit for the position.
Quote from: naginiF on October 14, 2021, 04:56:11 PM
because a) it's their choice and b) a significant portion of a nurses job is understanding and following medical science - not doing so indicates they are not fit for the position.
Our hospitals are very much understaffed right now. If you think it's wise to put policies in place that exacerbate the problem, so be it. I don't. Would I prefer that the nurse treating me in the hospital, the fireman saving my burning home or the cop answering my 911 call be vaccinated? Absolutely. But I don't want my operation postponed, my house burning down or someone answering my 911 call too late because I'm being "protected" from the non vaccinated. They don't scare me that much.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 04:39:01 PM
Simplistic generalization, but why not?
Because they're objectively unfit for their position.
Don't be stupid.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 05:10:30 PM
Our hospitals are very much understaffed right now. If you think it's wise to put policies in place that exacerbate the problem, so be it. I don't. Would I prefer that the nurse treating me in the hospital, the fireman saving my burning home or the cop answering my 911 call be vaccinated? Absolutely. But I don't want my operation postponed, my house burning down or someone answering my 911 call too late because I'm being "protected" from the non vaccinated. They don't scare me that much.
You're exaggerating the number of these people who are unvaccinated and are walking away from their professional careers.
It isn't a statistically significant amount. I promise. You're consuming media that has created a boogeyman that does not exist.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 05:10:30 PM
Our hospitals are very much understaffed right now. If you think it's wise to put policies in place that exacerbate the problem, so be it. I don't. Would I prefer that the nurse treating me in the hospital, the fireman saving my burning home or the cop answering my 911 call be vaccinated? Absolutely. But I don't want my operation postponed, my house burning down or someone answering my 911 call too late because I'm being "protected" from the non vaccinated. They don't scare me that much.
Are these front line hero's just too lazy to abide by the testing rules then? If you don't get the 💉, then line up every week and get your test.
Quote from: reinko on October 14, 2021, 05:52:21 PM
Are these front line hero's just too lazy to abide by the testing rules then? If you don't get the 💉, then line up every week and get your test.
Not always possible. Some hospitals/systems are mandating the vaccine without a testing option.
Contrast to federal mandate that says you can test or vax.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 14, 2021, 05:50:06 PM
You're exaggerating the number of these people who are unvaccinated and are walking away from their professional careers.
It isn't a statistically significant amount. I promise. You're consuming media that has created a boogeyman that does not exist.
As of August 18, 2021, 27% of healthcare workers were not vaccinated. Almost 2 months later I'm sure that number is lower. But assuming it's insignificant is just plain stupid.
https://news.northeastern.edu/2021/08/18/many-healthcare-workers-still-havent-gotten-covid-19-vaccines/
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 07:03:20 PM
As of August 18, 2021, 27% of healthcare workers were not vaccinated. Almost 2 months later I'm sure that number is lower. But assuming it's insignificant is just plain stupid.
Let's give hardy the benefit of the doubt and say 10-15%. Can any business, especially healthcare absorb a hit like that? Tell that to the family in distress. As the ice cream man referred to his nemesis many times as lacking in leadership, kettle black eyna?
So y'all are A-OK with unvaccinated nurses, doctors, nurse practitioners, PAs and nursing assistants treating your loved ones? Cool.
Quote from: MU82 on October 14, 2021, 07:20:40 PM
So y'all are A-OK with unvaccinated nurses, doctors, nurse practitioners, PAs and nursing assistants treating your loved ones? Cool.
Who the F@CK said A-OK? That would be the same as me asking you if you're A-OK with your loved ones lying in a hospital untreated or not being allowed in at all to protect them from masked unvaccinated hospital workers.
Nobody is A-OK with any of this. Don't insult me or yourself with this kind of stuff, Mike.
Simple solution. Get the vaccine.
Yale New Haven Health System getting rid of the unvaccinated.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nhregister.com/news/amp/Doctor-225-unvaccinated-at-Yale-New-Haven-Health-16525380.php
Doctor: 225 unvaccinated at Yale New Haven Health told they'll lose their jobs Oct. 18
Photo of Ed Stannard
Ed Stannard
Updated: Oct. 11, 2021 5:26 p.m.
NEW HAVEN — A total of 225 employees of the Yale New Haven Health System are expected be terminated on Oct. 18, according to officials.
Dr. Ohm Deshpande, associate chief clinical officer, said Monday those employees have been given written notice they will be suspended until their termination date. If they get vaccinated for COVID-19 before then, they will be able to keep their jobs, he said. The deadline for staff to become vaccinated was Sept. 28, he has said.
An additional 244 employees are in the process of getting their shots and will not be let go if they are completely vaccinated by Oct. 18, Deshpande said. He said 99.21 percent of the health system's 28,638 employees are "fully vaccinated or in the process of getting vaccinated" as of Monday.
"It's pretty close to what we expected ultimately," Deshpande said. "There are a fair number of folks in the environmental services area, the food and nutrition area and then the nursing area" who have the highest numbers of unvaccinated staff, he said.
With an estimated 10,000 nurses "it just sort of stands to reason" that they would account for a larger number of unvaccinated employees, he said.
Deshpande said he did not have a breakdown of medical vs. non-medical staff. "We've from the very beginning considered our environmental services folks, our food and nutrition folks to be health care workers," he said.
He said there have been 712 exemptions or deferrals given out, about two-thirds of them religious and one-third medical.
Deshpande said while "health care workers as a general group are more likely to be vaccinated than the general population," there are still some who have refused to get their shots because of misinformation such as "debunked things around fertility" or "political opinions."
On June 30, Yale New Haven Health, along with other hospital-based health systems in Connecticut, announced the vaccination mandate for all its nearly 30,000 employees.
Yale New Haven Health includes Yale New Haven, Bridgeport and Greenwich hospitals, Lawrence and Memorial Hospital in New London and Westerly Hospital in Rhode Island, as well as the Northeast Medical Group of physicians' practices.
On Sept. 21, there were still 700 employees and casual staff, such as per diem nurses, who had yet to be vaccinated.
"We have been having on-site clinics for several months," Deshpande said. "If people have held out this long and are still not vaccinated, we can get them vaccinated through occupational health."
Deshpande said he did not know how unionized employees were affected by the vaccination mandate, but that "at a high level things have gone very well" with union leaders. Food service workers are unionized at Yale New Haven Hospital's two campuses and there are Teamsters representing other workers at the St. Raphael campus, health system officials have said. Deshpande said unions also represent some employees at Lawrence and Memorial Hospital.
edward.stannard@hearstmediact.com; 203-680-9382
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 14, 2021, 07:09:14 PM
Let's give hardy the benefit of the doubt and say 10-15%. Can any business, especially healthcare absorb a hit like that? Tell that to the family in distress. As the ice cream man referred to his nemesis many times as lacking in leadership, kettle black eyna?
4 out 10, only redeemed by ice cream man.
Quote from: tower912 on October 14, 2021, 07:33:08 PM
Simple solution. Get the vaccine.
Of course that's the best (utopian) solution. But we don't live in Utopia. "Solutions" end up being very much less than perfect. But if my wife has a massive heart attack and needs the paddles and my choices are an unvaxxed EMT in 3 minutes or a vaxxed one 10 minutes later I know which one I choose.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 07:45:42 PM
Of course that's the best (utopian) solution. But we don't live in Utopia. "Solutions" end up being very much less than perfect. But if my wife has a massive heart attack and needs the paddles and my choices are an unvaxxed EMT in 3 minutes or a vaxxed one 10 minutes later I know which one I choose.
When would that ever be an actual choice? Do you call 911 and the dispatcher asks "Vaxxed or Unvaxxed?"
What's the point of such a hypothetical?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 07:29:18 PM
Who the F@CK said A-OK? That would be the same as me asking you if you're A-OK with your loved ones lying in a hospital untreated or not being allowed in at all to protect them from masked unvaccinated hospital workers.
Nobody is A-OK with any of this. Don't insult me or yourself with this kind of stuff, Mike.
Excellent. Glad you agree 100% that mandates are necessary so that all medical personnel are vaccinated. If they don't comply, they're gone.
Because no American should have to send his or her loved ones to be treated by the unvaccinated.
Have a nice night, Tony.
It's almost as if hospitals wouldn't be overcrowded and/or understaffed if there were a way to get rid of the virus that is filling up hospitals.
Move on to a different boogeyman, Qs.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 07:29:18 PM
Who the F@CK said A-OK? That would be the same as me asking you if you're A-OK with your loved ones lying in a hospital untreated or not being allowed in at all to protect them from masked unvaccinated hospital workers.
Nobody is A-OK with any of this. Don't insult me or yourself with this kind of stuff, Mike.
Perhaps the health care systems should determine what's best for them. And it seems many are requiring vaccinations. So if they want to fire unvaccinated staff, they should be free to do so.
Everyone just needs to stop the silliness over vaccine mandates. 12 years ago, my wife was told she had to get a flu shot (or have a doctor's excuse why she couldn't), of she would be fired by the hospital.
This stuff isn't new. The only difference is that a political party has decided to endorse killing people.
Get the vaccine or get fired. You won't be missed a bit.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 07:03:20 PM
As of August 18, 2021, 27% of healthcare workers were not vaccinated. Almost 2 months later I'm sure that number is lower. But assuming it's insignificant is just plain stupid.
https://news.northeastern.edu/2021/08/18/many-healthcare-workers-still-havent-gotten-covid-19-vaccines/
As has been mentioned
ad nauseum a lot of these people say they'll quit and then don't. They're posturing and holding out until the last moment. No shot they all quit.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 14, 2021, 07:09:14 PM
Let's give hardy the benefit of the doubt and say 10-15%. Can any business, especially healthcare absorb a hit like that? Tell that to the family in distress. As the ice cream man referred to his nemesis many times as lacking in leadership, kettle black eyna?
Let's give old rocks for brains here the benefit of the doubt and say he's got 10-15 brain cells to rub together. But I'd be giving him far too much credit.
You and Lenny are creating hypotheticals that don't exist. Boogeymen of your own creation.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 15, 2021, 06:01:05 AM
As has been mentioned ad nauseum a lot of these people say they'll quit and then don't. They're posturing and holding out until the last moment. No shot they all quit.
The article on Yale New Haven Health that I posted said with the mandate they got to
99.25% vaccinated and the 200+ holdouts were given one last notice of vaccine or fired by Oct. 18.
Outstanding New York Times piece about the psychology of the unvaccinated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/15/opinion/covid-vaccines-unvaccinated.html?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20211015&instance_id=42917&nl=dealbook®i_id=108420427&segment_id=71723&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
It has stats about those quitting due to mandates -- very, very few -- but it also goes into a lot of detail about why various groups of people have been hesitant, from poor people with no health insurance who don't trust the system, to the misinformed, to those who have been conned by Fox News, to science deniers, etc.
I found some of the doctors and nurses who won't get vaccinated.
Their numbers are dwindling.
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/dr-steve-beito-62-new-braunfels-tx-podiatrist-anti-vaxx-dead-with-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/natasha-tiner-35-troup-tx-registered-nurse-against-vaxx-for-herself-dead-from-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/amanda-fowler-39-douglas-ga-ems-nurse-religious-lgbt-anti-vaxx-and-died-from-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/brye-carminati-goolsby-45-bowie-tx-registered-nurse-anti-vaxxer-dead-from-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/dianna-rathburn-57-rn-pediatric-homecare-nurse-anti-masker-anti-vaxxer-dead-from-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/theresa-jordan-60-tampa-fl-nurse-handling-covid-cases-anti-vaxxer-died-of-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/byron-webb-54-twin-falls-id-registered-nurse-anti-vaxxer-dead-from-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/dale-trey-stokes-34-tyler-tx-paramedic-unvaccinated-died-from-covid-19-leaves-family-of-4
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/chelsey-rose-30-granite-city-il-registered-nurse-anti-vaxx-died-from-covid
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/jane-treadwell-holston-56-helena-al-nurse-practitioner-prof-anti-vaxx-and-dead-of-covid
Quote from: Pakuni on October 14, 2021, 08:16:05 PM
When would that ever be an actual choice? Do you call 911 and the dispatcher asks "Vaxxed or Unvaxxed?"
What's the point of such a hypothetical?
Fewer cops, fewer EMTs amounts to less efficiency, longer waiting times. In life or death situations that's kind of a big deal.
Quote from: Jockey on October 14, 2021, 09:36:35 PM
Everyone just needs to stop the silliness over vaccine mandates. 12 years ago, my wife was told she had to get a flu shot (or have a doctor's excuse why she couldn't), of she would be fired by the hospital.
Get the flu shot or get fired is an actual thing at hospitals? Honestly never heard that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 09:21:56 AM
Get the flu shot or get fired is an actual thing at hospitals? Honestly never heard that.
Yup. Back before the official mandate there was random chatter at my wife's hospital "they can't make us! grumble grumble FREEDOM," and my wife was like "you dummies have to get a flu shot. They're absolutely going to make you."
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 07:45:42 PM
Of course that's the best (utopian) solution. But we don't live in Utopia. "Solutions" end up being very much less than perfect. But if my wife has a massive heart attack and needs the paddles and my choices are an unvaxxed EMT in 3 minutes or a vaxxed one 10 minutes later I know which one I choose.
Lenny, I do think that folks are a little too flippant about the consequences of vaccine mandates. It remains to be seen how it washes out in workforce reduction numbers, but considering these staffs are overworked and understaffed as it is, any reduction isn't nothing.
That being said, the mandates are still worth it to me. The marginal utility of the workers who will get the vaccine that otherwise wouldn't have, plus knowing that healthcare staffs are entirely vaxxed, offsets the likely workforce reductions based on everything I've seen. Plus there's kind of a philosophical red line on this - a "we aren't going to be the country that entertains anti-science sentiments to the point where we have unvaccinated healthcare workers in the middle of a pandemic" kind of thing. If you don't set that line somewhere and take the pain that comes with enforcing it, I think that creeps and creeps and creeps.
This is such a manufactured crisis.
That is one reason I am hopeful more companies step in and stay the course on their mandates (like AA and SW just did). Frankly it's a great way to give people a way to save face in something they have dug in on or need the push to get over hesitancy. Zeynep Tufekci wrote an op-ed today on this topic in the times today that did a great job of cutting past the rural/republican headline (which is true by the way) but down into the nuance which is much broader on the unvaccinated and how to reach them.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 09:12:01 AM
Fewer cops, fewer EMTs amounts to less efficiency, longer waiting times. In life or death situations that's kind of a big deal.
The pandemic has brought to light and exacerbated an already bad situation. Welcome to the bandwagon.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 09:21:56 AM
Get the flu shot or get fired is an actual thing at hospitals? Honestly never heard that.
Pretty sure it was mandated at Chick Jr's hospital going back quite a way, but no one gave it a second thought until recently.
I know that Marquette always required its nursing students to have all of their vaccinations up to date, including flu shots, before they did any of their clinical rotations.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 09:12:01 AM
Fewer cops, fewer EMTs amounts to less efficiency, longer waiting times. In life or death situations that's kind of a big deal.
I bet you could more than make up for any workers lost due to vaccine mandates if you paid them more, provided more support staff and reduced extra work hours.
But that kinda talk isn't enough to grab headlines
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 09:21:56 AM
Get the flu shot or get fired is an actual thing at hospitals? Honestly never heard that.
Started around 2010. She had never gotten the shot cuz she never got the flu. But she had no problem doing it once it was mandated.
And, really, it is just common sense. The last thing sick or compromised people in the hospital need is a nurse who is going to infect them with some bug. Same thing with the Covid shot. If nurses don't want to get it, show them the door immediately.
Quote from: Jockey on October 15, 2021, 12:33:44 PM
Started around 2010. She had never gotten the shot cuz she never got the flu. But she had no problem doing it once it was mandated.
And, really, it is just common sense. The last thing sick or compromised people in the hospital need is a nurse who is going to infect them with some bug. Same thing with the Covid shot. If nurses don't want to get it, show them the door immediately.
Did she do her own research? Read Facebook? Try Lysol?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 14, 2021, 07:45:42 PM
Of course that's the best (utopian) solution. But we don't live in Utopia. "Solutions" end up being very much less than perfect. But if my wife has a massive heart attack and needs the paddles and my choices are an unvaxxed EMT in 3 minutes or a vaxxed one 10 minutes later I know which one I choose.
If we are doing hypotheticals, you don't use paddles for heart attacks, only cardiac arrest.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 15, 2021, 12:39:03 PM
Did she do her own research? Read Facebook? Try Lysol?
;D ;D
No, she just consulted some tele-evangelists for some high level advice. Then stopped by the local feed store.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 15, 2021, 06:10:19 AM
Let's give old rocks for brains here the benefit of the doubt and say he's got 10-15 brain cells to rub together. But I'd be giving him far too much credit.
You and Lenny are creating hypotheticals that don't exist. Boogeymen of your own creation.
You've got to be one of the top 5 A-holes on this board. Who the F do you think you are? You need a break from this board man
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 15, 2021, 04:48:07 PM
You've got to be one of the top 5 A-holes on this board. Who the F do you think you are? You need a break from this board man
8 of 10. Can't give it a 10 because it lacks air quotes, conspiracy theories or poor grammar.
Disappointed in the full sentences and proper punctuation. Great use of expletives and personal attack.
Disagree. Take off points for not being specific about who his top 5 are.
1/2 the board is wondering AITA and can't decide whether they will be hurt or excited if named.
Quote from: tower912 on October 15, 2021, 05:52:03 PM
Disagree. Take off points for not being specific about who his top 5 are.
1/2 the board is wondering AITA and can't decide whether they will be hurt or excited if named.
Expletives and personal attacks always score high for me. And not naming the top 5 outside Hards is suspenseful. Who are the other 4? It's like The Masked Singer but even dumber
Fair
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 15, 2021, 09:40:01 AM
Lenny, I do think that folks are a little too flippant about the consequences of vaccine mandates. It remains to be seen how it washes out in workforce reduction numbers, but considering these staffs are overworked and understaffed as it is, any reduction isn't nothing.
That being said, the mandates are still worth it to me. The marginal utility of the workers who will get the vaccine that otherwise wouldn't have, plus knowing that healthcare staffs are entirely vaxxed, offsets the likely workforce reductions based on everything I've seen. Plus there's kind of a philosophical red line on this - a "we aren't going to be the country that entertains anti-science sentiments to the point where we have unvaccinated healthcare workers in the middle of a pandemic" kind of thing. If you don't set that line somewhere and take the pain that comes with enforcing it, I think that creeps and creeps and creeps.
Outstanding post. And I say that as one who occasionally is a little too flippant.
Administrators simply can't afford to run a medical facility that allows their employees to be unvaccinated in the middle of a pandemic that already has killed 700K+ Americans.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 14, 2021, 07:41:51 PM
4 out 10, only redeemed by ice cream man.
He did throw in a wildly inaccurate made up statistic drawn directly from his (or more likely Tucker Carlson's) ass though. Bonus point.
Quote from: MUBurrow on October 15, 2021, 09:40:01 AM
Lenny, I do think that folks are a little too flippant about the consequences of vaccine mandates. It remains to be seen how it washes out in workforce reduction numbers, but considering these staffs are overworked and understaffed as it is, any reduction isn't nothing.
That being said, the mandates are still worth it to me. The marginal utility of the workers who will get the vaccine that otherwise wouldn't have, plus knowing that healthcare staffs are entirely vaxxed, offsets the likely workforce reductions based on everything I've seen. Plus there's kind of a philosophical red line on this - a "we aren't going to be the country that entertains anti-science sentiments to the point where we have unvaccinated healthcare workers in the middle of a pandemic" kind of thing. If you don't set that line somewhere and take the pain that comes with enforcing it, I think that creeps and creeps and creeps.
Burrow
Thanks for a reasonable and well thought out reply. I see your point, thank you for acknowledging mine. Whatever "solutions" we try none will be perfect. But most people are so locked into their "side" that discussing this stuff (any stuff, really) with any nuance at all is impossible. And that's sad.
Quote from: MU82 on October 15, 2021, 06:26:53 PM
Administrators simply can't afford to run a medical facility that allows their employees to be unvaccinated in the middle of a pandemic that already has killed 700K+ Americans.
Mike
I don't know if we're "in the middle of a pandemic" or near its end. But please explain to me why administrators suddenly "can't afford to run a medical facility that allows their employees to be unvaccinated". More than half of the 700,000 deaths have occurred AFTER the vaccine became available to health care professionals. Why could they afford the last 350,000 but not any more?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 15, 2021, 04:48:07 PM
You've got to be one of the top 5 A-holes on this board. Who the F do you think you are? You need a break from this board man
And you bring absolutely nothing to the conversation. Ever. You think you're clever. You come to a gun fight with a water balloon.
Your only redeeming asset is that you're so self unaware that it is funny to the rest of the board.
Thanks for being a continuing source of humor for the rest of us.
<3
Quote from: tower912 on October 15, 2021, 05:52:03 PM
Disagree. Take off points for not being specific about who his top 5 are.
1/2 the board is wondering AITA and can't decide whether they will be hurt or excited if named.
In his mind:
1. Fluffy
2. Pakuni
3. Tsmith
4. BLM
5. Yours Truly
Odd that he thinks that we're 'A-holes' (sic) because the only thing he ever sees of us is the sweat from our nutsacks dripping on his head as we repeatedly dunk on him.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 08:43:40 PM
Mike
I don't know if we're "in the middle of a pandemic" or near its end. But please explain to me why administrators suddenly "can't afford to run a medical facility that allows their employees to be unvaccinated". More than half of the 700,000 deaths have occurred AFTER the vaccine became available to health care professionals. Why could they afford the last 350,000 but not any more?
It's a process. It was impossible to get everyone vaccinated a month or two after they were available.
We know more now - including that the vaccines work and, if you're unvaccinated, you run a much greater chance of getting gravely ill and of spreading a deadly virus to others.
Thank goodness hospitals are insisting their employees get vaccinated. Patients deserve to be treated by medical personnel who are vaccinated, and medical personnel deserve to not have to work alongside unvaccinated "teammates."
The employees still have a choice. They can choose to be vaccinated or to work elsewhere.
I'm actually surprised you disagree with any of that, Tony.
Quote from: MU82 on October 15, 2021, 10:05:07 PM
It's a process. It was impossible to get everyone vaccinated a month or two after they were available.
A month or two? OK. But every hospital worker who wanted to get vaccinated could have had the shot at least several months ago. Where were the administrators? Crickets. Where was President Biden? This mandate idea is a very recent change of opinion on their part.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 15, 2021, 08:45:36 PM
And you bring absolutely nothing to the conversation. Ever. You think you're clever. You come to a gun fight with a water balloon.
Your only redeeming asset is that you're so self unaware that it is funny to the rest of the board.
Thanks for being a continuing source of humor for the rest of us.
<3
You are an angry bitter man. What is it? Couldn't make it in health science field so you try to make up for it here? Big fail Your projection is frightening... thank you for validating my points.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 15, 2021, 11:08:50 PM
You are an angry bitter man. What is it? Couldn't make it in health science field so you try to make up for it here? Big fail Your projection is frightening... thank you for validating my points.
6 out of 10. I can sense a lot of projection in this post. Good to see the ellipses back.
]
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 11:02:35 PM
A month or two? OK. But every hospital worker who wanted to get vaccinated could have had the shot at least several months ago. Where were the administrators? Crickets. Where was President Biden? This mandate idea is a very recent change of opinion on their part.
You don't think the administration or health care administrators weren't emphasizing vaccinations until recently? The reason they now use the stick approach was because the carrot stopped working.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 15, 2021, 08:48:20 PM
In his mind:
1. Fluffy
2. Pakuni
3. Tsmith
4. BLM
5. Yours Truly
Odd that he thinks that we're 'A-holes' (sic) because the only thing he ever sees of us is the sweat from our nutsacks dripping on his head as we repeatedly dunk on him.
I'll see your 5 and raise you Jockitch, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 16, 2021, 05:39:09 AM
6 out of 10. I can sense a lot of projection in this post. Good to see the ellipses back.
Why do you think he's all of the sudden using caps and punctuation?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 11:02:35 PM
A month or two? OK. But every hospital worker who wanted to get vaccinated could have had the shot at least several months ago. Where were the administrators? Crickets. Where was President Biden? This mandate idea is a very recent change of opinion on their part.
Every hospital worker who wanted to get vaccinated did so back in January or February. My wife and all of the nurses, doctors and support staff in her unit got theirs in January.
All those who wanted them didn't need "help" from administrators or the president. The vaccines were there.
The mandate was needed because of the health-care workers who refused to get a vaccine during a pandemic -- even after incentives like free money, gift cards, etc, didn't work.
I mean, think about the insanity of that for a second. These people allegedly have dedicated their lives to the health of patients, but now here they are refusing to do what they dedicated their lives to do. It's akin to refusing to scrub in or to putting on a mask before performing surgery; should hospital employees have the "freedom" to skip doing that, too?
Thankfully, the mandates have "convinced" most of the holdouts to get the effen vaccine. Those who won't ... don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
Again, based on your earlier comments about anybody being willing to let unvaccinated health-care workers treat their loved ones, I continue to be surprised that you keep arguing about this issue.
Hospital employees, every single one of them, need to be vaccinated against a deadly, highly contagious virus. Period. If they refuse, I keep reading about the thousands upon thousands of job openings in all kinds of industries.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on October 16, 2021, 07:34:55 AM
Why do you think he's all of the sudden using caps and punctuation?
Someone is hitting close to home
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 15, 2021, 11:08:50 PM
You are an angry bitter man. What is it? Couldn't make it in health science field so you try to make up for it here? Big fail Your projection is frightening... thank you for validating my points.
LOL.
Keep playing the hits, buddy.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 16, 2021, 06:46:41 AM
I'll see your 5 and raise you Jockitch, hey?
Sorry, I could only fit 5, and BLM triggers him much more than Jockey.
Quote from: MU82 on October 16, 2021, 07:49:54 AM
Every hospital worker who wanted to get vaccinated did so back in January or February. My wife and all of the nurses, doctors and support staff in her unit got theirs in January.
All those who wanted them didn't need "help" from administrators or the president. The vaccines were there.
The mandate was needed because of the health-care workers who refused to get a vaccine during a pandemic -- even after incentives like free money, gift cards, etc, didn't work.
I mean, think about the insanity of that for a second. These people allegedly have dedicated their lives to the health of patients, but now here they are refusing to do what they dedicated their lives to do. It's akin to refusing to scrub in or to putting on a mask before performing surgery; should hospital employees have the "freedom" to skip doing that, too?
Thankfully, the mandates have "convinced" most of the holdouts to get the effen vaccine. Those who won't ... don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
Again, based on your earlier comments about anybody being willing to let unvaccinated health-care workers treat their loved ones, I continue to be surprised that you keep arguing about this issue.
Hospital employees, every single one of them, need to be vaccinated against a deadly, highly contagious virus. Period. If they refuse, I keep reading about the thousands upon thousands of job openings in all kinds of industries.
We allowed unvaccinated workers to treat our loved one for 9 months after they could have been vaccinated. In those 9 months 350,000 died. Through it all the administration said "No mandates". Now, with the virus on the wane and deaths way down, we need mandates to save lives. This doesn't strike you as odd?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 15, 2021, 11:02:35 PM
A month or two? OK. But every hospital worker who wanted to get vaccinated could have had the shot at least several months ago. Where were the administrators? Crickets. Where was President Biden? This mandate idea is a very recent change of opinion on their part.
Are you confusing the federal mandate (which allows for testing instead of vax) with individual health system/private corporation mandates to be vaccinated?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 15, 2021, 11:08:50 PM
You are an angry bitter man. What is it? Couldn't make it in health science field so you try to make up for it here? Big fail Your projection is frightening... thank you for validating my points.
Hey health sciences guy, when are you going to provide those peer reviewed studies on the efficacy of HCQ and ivermectin (or, as an "expert health care professional" such as yourself spells it "ivormectin")??
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2021, 10:04:45 AM
We allowed unvaccinated workers to treat our loved one for 9 months after they could have been vaccinated. In those 9 months 350,000 died. Through it all the administration said "No mandates". Now, with the virus on the wane and deaths way down, we need mandates to save lives. This doesn't strike you as odd?
Not gonna go back and forth with you on this, Tony, except to repeat what I think we both believe: All health-care workers should be vaccinated.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Meanwhile ...
Vaccine mandates stoked fears of labor shortages. But hospitals say they're working.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/16/hospital-covid-vaccine-mandate/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34ffcc2%2F616af4de9d2fda9d411302dc%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F8%2F72%2F616af4de9d2fda9d411302dc
At Houston Methodist — one of the first American health-care institutions to require workers to get vaccinated against the coronavirus — the backlash was short-lived.
More than 150 employees were fired. There were legal battles and protests. But President and CEO Marc Boom has no regrets: 98 percent of staff have been vaccinated, and they and patients are safer as a result, he said.
"I can unequivocally say [it was] the best decision we ever made," Boom said in an interview.
Houston Methodist is not alone in requiring its employees to be vaccinated. About 41 percent of hospitals nationwide — roughly 2,570 facilities — have some sort of vaccine mandate, according to data collected by the American Hospital Association, a trade group. Others are expected to follow after President Biden announced last month that he would require most health-care facilities that accept Medicaid or Medicare funding — many of which also treat immunocompromised people who are at high risk of getting severely ill from covid — to vaccinate their employees.
Most health-care systems that require vaccination have touted widespread compliance. In interviews, administrators at some of the nation's largest hospital systems said the mandates worked: Officials said that they have very high vaccination rates they attributed to the requirement and that they have seen coronavirus infections — and sick leaves — noticeably drop.
At Novant Health, a 35,000-employee health-care system in four Southeast states, more than 99 percent of workers have complied with a vaccine mandate, spokeswoman Caryn Klebba wrote in an email.
"Without a vaccine mandate for team members, we faced the strong possibility of having a third of our staff unable to work due to contracting, or exposure to, COVID-19," she said. "This possibility only increases heading into a fall season with the more contagious and deadly Delta variant."
It's a total no-brainer. I'm glad they're getting it done.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 16, 2021, 10:04:45 AM
We allowed unvaccinated workers to treat our loved one for 9 months after they could have been vaccinated. In those 9 months 350,000 died. Through it all the administration said "No mandates". Now, with the virus on the wane and deaths way down, we need mandates to save lives. This doesn't strike you as odd?
Give it up, Lenny.
You're arguing for both sides now.
Glad my kids don't go here.
Florida School Requiring Vaccinated Students to Stay Home for 30 Days After Each Dose
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-school-requiring-vaccinated-students-to-stay-home-for-30-days-after-each-dose/ar-AAPD8eI?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds
A private school in Miami is requiring students who get vaccinated against COVID-19 to stay home for 30 days after each dose—months after the school said it would not employ anyone who is vaccinated.
"Because of the potential impact on other students and our school community, vaccinated students will need to stay at home for 30 days post-vaccination for each dose and booster they receive and may return to school after 30 days as long as the student is healthy and symptom-free,"
Love the catch line of the school!🤣
Is that the same school that told their teachers not to get vaccinated?
Yes.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 16, 2021, 10:13:35 AM
Hey health sciences guy, when are you going to provide those peer reviewed studies on the efficacy of HCQ and ivermectin (or, as an "expert health care professional" such as yourself spells it "ivormectin")??
[/quote
Trying to minimize over a mis spelled word is about as dooshy stupid and juvenile as it gets. Go look up the peer reviewed studies, when and how they are performed and their impacts on "things" your knowledge and background in the health sciences is...what? Quit the troll job and stay with what little you may or may not know about jack. Just give hcq and ivermectin and a few others a few more months and you guys will be bowing down and apologizing
10 of 10. Failed to block and copy properly. Air quotes, ellipses and personal attacks. The coup de grace is the end where people will be bowing down and apologizing about treatments. Bravo
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 17, 2021, 11:55:05 PM
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 16, 2021, 10:13:35 AM
Hey health sciences guy, when are you going to provide those peer reviewed studies on the efficacy of HCQ and ivermectin (or, as an "expert health care professional" such as yourself spells it "ivormectin")??
[/quote
Trying to minimize over a mis spelled word is about as dooshy stupid and juvenile as it gets. Go look up the peer reviewed studies, when and how they are performed and their impacts on "things" your knowledge and background in the health sciences is...what? Quit the troll job and stay with what little you may or may not know about jack. Just give hcq and ivermectin and a few others a few more months and you guys will be bowing down and apologizing
rocket "WLM" surgeon proving once again that he should hang up his drill and retire to Scottsdale.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 17, 2021, 11:55:05 PM
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 16, 2021, 10:13:35 AM
Hey health sciences guy, when are you going to provide those peer reviewed studies on the efficacy of HCQ and ivermectin (or, as an "expert health care professional" such as yourself spells it "ivormectin")??
[/quote
Trying to minimize over a mis spelled word is about as dooshy stupid and juvenile as it gets. Go look up the peer reviewed studies, when and how they are performed and their impacts on "things" your knowledge and background in the health sciences is...what? Quit the troll job and stay with what little you may or may not know about jack. Just give hcq and ivermectin and a few others a few more months and you guys will be bowing down and apologizing
So there are in fact zero peer reviewed studies showing any efficacy of HCQ or ivermection in fighting COVID, but that will all change in a few more months, eh?
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 18, 2021, 10:45:40 AM
So there are in fact zero peer reviewed studies showing any efficacy of HCQ or ivermection in fighting COVID, but that will all change in a few more months, eh?
Yep. It all will change the day roQQet's hero is reinstated!
The first order of business will be an executive order mandating a horse de-wormer be prescribed for all humans infected with COVID-19.
Washington State football coach Nick Rolovich, 4 assistants out after refusing state-mandated COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/32426315/nick-rolovich-washington-state-football-coach-refusing-state-mandated-covid-19-vaccine-source-says
Was the highest paid state employee....was.
Quote from: pbiflyer on October 18, 2021, 09:04:31 PM
Washington State football coach Nick Rolovich, 4 assistants out after refusing state-mandated COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/32426315/nick-rolovich-washington-state-football-coach-refusing-state-mandated-covid-19-vaccine-source-says
Was the highest paid state employee....was.
Good!
In addition to protecting himself from a deadly, highly contagious virus, he had a chance to protect his loved ones, to be a role model, and to think about people other than himself. He went 0-fer. And just like a coach who goes 0-fer in the W-L column, he deserved to be fired.
He showed us.
Quote from: pbiflyer on October 18, 2021, 09:04:31 PM
Washington State football coach Nick Rolovich, 4 assistants out after refusing state-mandated COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/32426315/nick-rolovich-washington-state-football-coach-refusing-state-mandated-covid-19-vaccine-source-says
Was the highest paid state employee....was.
Glad to see him lose all his pay, richly deserved.
Quote from: pbiflyer on October 18, 2021, 09:04:31 PM
Washington State football coach Nick Rolovich, 4 assistants out after refusing state-mandated COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/32426315/nick-rolovich-washington-state-football-coach-refusing-state-mandated-covid-19-vaccine-source-says
Was the highest paid state employee....was.
Wetzel pretty much nails it here.
The most baffling thing here, to me at least, is Rolovich's refusal to explain his decosion. If he's standing on some principle, wouldn't it help if he explained what that principle is? He sought a religious exemption, but he's reportedly Catholic, and the Church has spoken strongly in favor of vaccination.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/similar-to-kyrie-irving-washington-states-nick-rolovich-took-a-stance-vs-covid-vaccine-but-hes-paying-a-stiffer-price-032531236.html
Gray Television -- a group of 100-ish networks -- has fired at least 7 employees, including some who are high-profile, on-air personalities in their markets -- for ignoring the company's vaccine mandate. And several others quit before they could be fired. Many of them have gone on social media and torched the company.
It's created a bit of a stir in their markets ... but not really all that much of a stir.
A "Christian crowdfunding site" is being used in hopes of raising $100K to "fight" the mandates ... and all of $285 has trickled in.
https://givesendgo.com/G29X2?utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2MvMe6bcs9XnHDoz_8KwiBBOfH-SVIXTwziNT6Zn7OJLm123iWzCMV-XQ
From today's news, I thought it interesting that Yale New Haven Health released 94 employees last week for refusing the vaccine. YNHH stated that if any choose to get the vaccine after their release that YNHH would hire them back. 8 have already done, so and there were another two dozen already supposedly in-process of getting the vaccine. I'm guessing they originally thought there was no way YNHH would go through with terminating them.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on October 21, 2021, 02:58:59 PM
From today's news, I thought it interesting that Yale New Haven Health released 94 employees last week for refusing the vaccine. YNHH stated that if any choose to get the vaccine after their release that YNHH would hire them back. 8 have already done, so and there were another two dozen already supposedly in-process of getting the vaccine. I'm guessing they originally thought there was no way YNHH would go through with terminating them.
Off an employee base of 12,991 (only ~ a third are medical) those 94 represent .7% of their employees......not even a blip.
Noted only for the chicken littles here who will claim it's an example of over taxing healthcare workers.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 18, 2021, 10:45:40 AM
So there are in fact zero peer reviewed studies showing any efficacy of HCQ or ivermection in fighting COVID, but that will all change in a few more months, eh?
Hey big zero loser guy, do you even know what a peer reviewed study is? Do you understand the potential biases? Do you ever use critical thinking? Do you still get all of your info from cnn and msnbc and The NY Times? Do you ever have anything constructive to add here? Are you always this depressed that you have to troll me with stuff you know nothing about?
Just allowed one opinion now I see. No room for people to think on their own, make their own health decisions, listen to their own doctors, etc? It's just one outlook on all this, sponsored by Pfizer, or prepare to be ridiculed/mocked/have people gloat over your death, loss of livelihood, etc. Not really the Marquette crowd I thought I knew, but I guess times are different now.
But what do I know, I'm just a mouth breather from Florida.
B
Quote from: MU B2002 on October 21, 2021, 06:52:48 PM
Just allowed one opinion now I see. No room for people to think on their own, make their own health decisions, listen to their own doctors, etc? It's just one outlook on all this, sponsored by Pfizer, or prepare to be ridiculed/mocked/have people gloat over your death, loss of livelihood, etc. Not really the Marquette crowd I thought I knew, but I guess times are different now.
But what do I know, I'm just a mouth breather from Florida.
B
There is this thing called science. It collects data. Analyzes data, and makes decisions that are consistent with all known data.
Opinions contradicting all that data are founded on nothing.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 21, 2021, 06:50:01 PM
Hey big zero loser guy, do you even know what a peer reviewed study is? Do you understand the potential biases? Do you ever use critical thinking? Do you still get all of your info from cnn and msnbc and The NY Times? Do you ever have anything constructive to add here? Are you always this depressed that you have to troll me with stuff you know nothing about?
Yes, this is a great answer to this mornings weak effort. Starting with a personal attack lets us know you're serious. Questioning another posters critical thinking capacity and then attacking the press you don't like is vintage stuff. Lamenting the lack of constructive thought from another poster is really tremendous content. Sadly, the determination for proper punctuation drops the score down.
9 of 10
Quote from: MU B2002 on October 21, 2021, 06:52:48 PM
Just allowed one opinion now I see. No room for people to think on their own, make their own health decisions, listen to their own doctors, etc? It's just one outlook on all this, sponsored by Pfizer, or prepare to be ridiculed/mocked/have people gloat over your death, loss of livelihood, etc. Not really the Marquette crowd I thought I knew, but I guess times are different now.
But what do I know, I'm just a mouth breather from Florida.
B
Good on ya. I encourage you to go to your local hospital and volunteer. That would be keeping with your Jesuit roots. And I am confident the medical personnel would appreciate your help.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 21, 2021, 06:50:01 PM
Hey big zero loser guy, do you even know what a peer reviewed study is? Do you understand the potential biases? Do you ever use critical thinking? Do you still get all of your info from cnn and msnbc and The NY Times? Do you ever have anything constructive to add here? Are you always this depressed that you have to troll me with stuff you know nothing about?
Show me anything that says ivermectin or HCQ works.
Like this from The Lancet
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00630-7/fulltext
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 21, 2021, 06:50:01 PM
Hey big zero loser guy, do you even know what a peer reviewed study is? Do you understand the potential biases? Do you ever use critical thinking? Do you still get all of your info from cnn and msnbc and The NY Times? Do you ever have anything constructive to add here? Are you always this depressed that you have to troll me with stuff you know nothing about?
I'll help you out roQQet, because it is physically impossible for you to point to a single scientifically validated study showing any effectiveness of either HCQ or ivermectin because they do not exist. Your ENTIRE belief in them is because you gobble down right-wing disinformation like a dung beetle happily choking down crap. You are a pretend health care professional that ignores science and promotes conspiracy theories.
Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid 'miracle' drughttps://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809
"Campaigners for the drug point to a number of scientific studies and often claim this evidence is being ignored or covered up. But a review by a group of independent scientists has cast serious doubt on that body of research.
The BBC can reveal that more than a third of 26 major trials of the drug for use on Covid have serious errors or signs of potential fraud. None of the rest show convincing evidence of ivermectin's effectiveness.
Dr Kyle Sheldrick, one of the group investigating the studies, said
they had not found "a single clinical trial" claiming to show that ivermectin prevented Covid deaths that did not contain "either obvious signs of fabrication or errors so critical they invalidate the study".
Major problems included:
*The same patient data being used multiple times for supposedly different people
*Evidence that selection of patients for test groups was not random
*Numbers unlikely to occur naturally
*Percentages calculated incorrectly
Out of a total of 26 studies examined, there was evidence in five that the data may have been faked - for example they contained virtually impossible numbers or rows of identical patients copied and pasted.
In a further five there were major red flags - for example, numbers didn't add up, percentages were calculated incorrectly or local health bodies weren't aware they had taken place.
On top of these flawed trials, there were 14 authors of studies who failed to send data back. The independent scientists have flagged this as a possible indicator of fraud.
The largest and highest quality ivermectin study published so far is the Together trial at the McMaster University in Canada.
It found no benefit for the drug when it comes to Covid."
Quote from: MU B2002 on October 21, 2021, 06:52:48 PM
Just allowed one opinion now I see. No room for people to think on their own, make their own health decisions, listen to their own doctors, etc? It's just one outlook on all this, sponsored by Pfizer, or prepare to be ridiculed/mocked/have people gloat over your death, loss of livelihood, etc. Not really the Marquette crowd I thought I knew, but I guess times are different now.
But what do I know, I'm just a mouth breather from Florida.
B
Nah, you have the complete freedom to ignore science, refuse life-saving vaccines, and "do your own research". All your choice.
If you catch COVID, and if you die, those are just the consequences of your freedom. Of course in the meantime, your selfishness is perpetuating a global pandemic, potentially allowing vaccine-resistant mutations to arise, and putting millions of innocent people at risk. Again, your choice that no one can take away.
But as you make these choices, try not to whine that you are being mocked for your selfish, ignorant choices. Those are called consequences. If you need validation for your choices that could potentially kill other people I am sure you can find many welcoming communities online and throughout Florida.
I work for a large organization with a vaccine mandate taking effect in the next month. A few anecdotes:
Employee A: first post-college job; with company for about 1 year. Unvaccinated. Resistant. Upset. Had planned on leaving. After 4 weeks of resistance, he's changed his mind. Decided to stay based on role and career/progression opportunities. Has a date set to get poked.
Employee B: High-performer 5-6 years into career. Vaccinated before the company policy went into place... but thinks company has no business asking about vaccination status. Refuses to provide documentation or engage in the process. Leaving on principle when the clock runs out.
Employee C: With company for 6 months. Wants to stay. Seeking medical/religious exemption. For sure will leave if not approved. I am not close enough (and don't supervise this person) so don't have an opinion on the legitimacy of the exemption or liklihood of approval.
How many people we'll lose isn't yet clear, but the data points I have suggest minimal impact. I might need to backfill 1-2 people for a team of 300. This is a well-educated team that had an ~90% vaccinated rate before the mandate came out. A common reason "why not" was young people just not having taken the time - in many cases because thay had COVID last fall/winter and didn't percieve any urgency until recently.
Quote from: MU B2002 on October 21, 2021, 06:52:48 PM
Just allowed one opinion now I see. No room for people to think on their own, make their own health decisions, listen to their own doctors, etc? It's just one outlook on all this, sponsored by Pfizer, or prepare to be ridiculed/mocked/have people gloat over your death, loss of livelihood, etc. Not really the Marquette crowd I thought I knew, but I guess times are different now.
But what do I know, I'm just a mouth breather from Florida.
The Marquette crowd I know understands science, and a year and a half into this, the science is pretty clear. Vaccines makes our world safer and increases ones chance of living incredibly significantly. Honestly, its not about opinion on this issue. It's settled fact.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 21, 2021, 06:50:01 PM
Hey big zero loser guy, do you even know what a peer reviewed study is? Do you understand the potential biases? Do you ever use critical thinking? Do you still get all of your info from cnn and msnbc and The NY Times? Do you ever have anything constructive to add here? Are you always this depressed that you have to troll me with stuff you know nothing about?
A case study in the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Booster on board.
Quote from: tower912 on October 22, 2021, 07:18:10 PM
Booster on board.
I thought I mentioned this earlier, but apparently not. Got mine a week ago, just a sore arm again.
You guys mix and match or stick with what you had? Curious if anyone else who mixed and matched had significantly worse effects than the prior two.
Third Pfizer.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
Vanity Fair, not your run of the mill right wing rag. Of course officials at NIH say Fauci didn't lie because he didn't know about the findings of the report despite it being sent and reviewed in 2018 and 2020. Can we finally get this guy to resign and leave us alone at minimum. Really deserves to be charged and arrested lying under oath to Congress but I'd be fine just letting the old man walk off into the sunset.
Folks worship at da altar of Fr. Fauci. Dey think he squats golden turds dat protect dem. He ain't goin' knowear 'til da woke crowd realizes he's got an agenda ta karry out, hey?
Doc, I brushed, flossed, and rinsed tonight. Should i repeat tomorrow? Or will I still have protection from tonight? Does the protection diminish?
Finally, based on your posting history, I would think you would want everyone to submit.
Quote from: tower912 on October 22, 2021, 08:42:46 PM
Doc, I brushed, flossed, and rinsed tonight. Should i repeat tomorrow? Or will I still have protection from tonight? Does the protection diminish?
Finally, based on your posting history, I would think you would want everyone to submit.
Dentists have an agenda to carry out. Until the woke crowd realizes they have an agenda to carry out, y'all be buying them fancy toothbrushes and toothpaste. I'm doing my own research, aina?
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 22, 2021, 08:30:15 PM
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
Vanity Fair, not your run of the mill right wing rag. Of course officials at NIH say Fauci didn't lie because he didn't know about the findings of the report despite it being sent and reviewed in 2018 and 2020. Can we finally get this guy to resign and leave us alone at minimum. Really deserves to be charged and arrested lying under oath to Congress but I'd be fine just letting the old man walk off into the sunset.
Why does this matter?
Is it just about partisan hackery?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 22, 2021, 08:15:57 PM
I thought I mentioned this earlier, but apparently not. Got mine a week ago, just a sore arm again.
Mentioning it after the fact?! Sounds like someone chasing that prestigious vaxx clout 🧐🧐
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2021, 08:39:54 PM
Folks worship at da altar of Fr. Fauci. Dey think he squats golden turds dat protect dem. He ain't goin' knowear 'til da woke crowd realizes he's got an agenda ta karry out, hey?
What's the agenda?
Quote from: JWags85 on October 22, 2021, 09:04:32 PM
Mentioning it after the fact?! Sounds like someone chasing that prestigious vaxx clout 🧐🧐
Not if he didn't put it on Facebook
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 22, 2021, 09:04:21 PM
Why does this matter?
Is it just about partisan hackery?
No, the partisan hackery is you asking why this matters.
Quote from: tower912 on October 22, 2021, 08:42:46 PM
Doc, I brushed, flossed, and rinsed tonight. Should i repeat tomorrow? Or will I still have protection from tonight? Does the protection diminish?
Finally, based on your posting history, I would think you would want everyone to submit.
i just advise what works best imho. a $2 toothbrush, 0.50 floss ya want fancy toothpaste? fine. ya don't want fluoride? fine. call me on friday night, saturday, sunday...if i ain't doing anything, meet me at the office. i get a kick out of people who say their dentists yell at them...why? no need to yell. their bill speaks volumes for itself
Quote from: JWags85 on October 22, 2021, 09:04:32 PM
Mentioning it after the fact?! Sounds like someone chasing that prestigious vaxx clout 🧐🧐
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/858361687109569521/981005AC68C785FF45C56C893E564BFAA9295642/?imw=500&imh=281&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true)
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 22, 2021, 09:05:15 PM
Not if he didn't put it on Facebook
With a funky fresh border around a picture of my band-aid arm.
For the past 19 months I've spent the bulk of my workday, 12 inches from people's pie hole. In retrospect I'm not convinced the U.S., from Trump, and now continuing with Biden, responded in the most prudent manner. Blind trust was given to Fauci/Birks to advise us and guide us. Did they have a sure fire plan to negotiate the pandemic. Hell no, only educated guesses. 6 feet, masks...not convinced either is a difference maker.
The vaccine was to be our ticket out of jail...its not. Being vaccinated merely kicks the can down the road a bit. Buy some time. The real answer is in the development of effective therapeutics. Face it, covid is not going away. Learn to live with it. The operative word is...live with it. We have created a society that is fearful and overreactive. Can measurement be made of the economic hardships created or mental illness developed from the stress of life under these conditions and isolation from human interaction?
Fauci doesn't have the answers and has flip flopped more times than a salmon during spawning season. Its time to put politics and agendas aside. Fauci's 15 minutes of fame is over. But, what the hell do I know? I'm just a fake doctor who didn't earn the degree, hey?
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 22, 2021, 09:17:39 PM
No, the partisan hackery is you asking why this matters.
So why does it matter?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2021, 09:27:12 PM
For the past 19 months I've spent the bulk of my workday, 12 inches from people's pie hole. In retrospect I'm not convinced the U.S., from Trump, and now continuing with Biden, responded in the most prudent manner. Blind trust was given to Fauci/Birks to advise us and guide us. Did they have a sure fire plan to negotiate the pandemic. Hell no, only educated guesses. 6 feet, masks...not convinced either is a difference maker.
The vaccine was to be our ticket out of jail...its not. Being vaccinated merely kicks the can down the road a bit. Buy some time. The real answer is in the development of effective therapeutics. Face it, covid is not going away. Learn to live with it. The operative word is...live with it. We have created a society that is fearful and overreactive. Can measurement be made of the economic hardships created or mental illness developed from the stress of life under these conditions and isolation from human interaction?
Fauci doesn't have the answers and has flip flopped more times than a salmon during spawning season. Its time to put politics and agendas aside. Fauci's 15 minutes of fame is over. But, what the hell do I know? I'm just a fake doctor who didn't earn the degree, hey?
Okay...
So what's the agenda?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2021, 09:27:12 PM
For the past 19 months I've spent the bulk of my workday, 12 inches from people's pie hole. In retrospect I'm not convinced the U.S., from Trump, and now continuing with Biden, responded in the most prudent manner. Blind trust was given to Fauci/Birks to advise us and guide us. Did they have a sure fire plan to negotiate the pandemic. Hell no, only educated guesses. 6 feet, masks...not convinced either is a difference maker.
The vaccine was to be our ticket out of jail...its not. Being vaccinated merely kicks the can down the road a bit. Buy some time. The real answer is in the development of effective therapeutics. Face it, covid is not going away. Learn to live with it. The operative word is...live with it. We have created a society that is fearful and overreactive. Can measurement be made of the economic hardships created or mental illness developed from the stress of life under these conditions and isolation from human interaction?
Fauci doesn't have the answers and has flip flopped more times than a salmon during spawning season. Its time to put politics and agendas aside. Fauci's 15 minutes of fame is over. But, what the hell do I know? I'm just a fake doctor who didn't earn the degree, hey?
well said doc-"never let a good crisis go to waste" we will never get ahead of this unless good old fashioned debate and science is truly followed. we also need to find out the TRUE origin in order to prevent this from happening again. yes we know wuhan, but remember when one couldn't even put that on social media. the censorship and cancellations are going to be our demise. there have been so many things that have been preached to us as fact that either have been out right lies or have been found to be untrue. the road toward the truth has been paved with brass tacks and hot coals and dirty underwear
Its very simple. Create an atmosphere of fear and control follows, aina?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 22, 2021, 09:38:39 PM
Okay...
So what's the agenda?
seriously? you don't have a feel for what's going on? start with power and control. if you don't sense that...you are either dishonest or you are a follower. critical thinking has gone out the window
I haven't laughed this hard in awhile
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 22, 2021, 09:38:14 PM
So why does it matter?
If it doesn't matter why did Fauci lie about it?
Rico Baby, be careful not to pee yourself again, hey?
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 22, 2021, 09:47:10 PM
I haven't laughed this hard in awhile
he who laughs last...laughs...last
umm...0 for the zero. if you are being honest, you're part of the problem
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 22, 2021, 08:30:15 PM
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
Vanity Fair, not your run of the mill right wing rag. Of course officials at NIH say Fauci didn't lie because he didn't know about the findings of the report despite it being sent and reviewed in 2018 and 2020. Can we finally get this guy to resign and leave us alone at minimum. Really deserves to be charged and arrested lying under oath to Congress but I'd be fine just letting the old man walk off into the sunset.
I have given up responding to your posts, since you clearly are a troll, but part of this article is interesting to me so I wanted to reply. First, the tone of vanity fair article is stupid. Comes from people that do not understand NIH funding, or the review process. Their tone/arguments are for either: 1. Clicks. 2. Partisan hackery.
To me as a scientist, this actually further clears him of any wrongdoing. And confirms he didn't lie to anyone.
What is interesting is this article again focuses on the "Furin Cleavage site" as some kind of red herring. Comments on the fact that since there was an aim related to a Furin Cleavage Site that this proves wrong doing.
Here is the problem with that, aims have to be based on scientific data and a reasonable hypothesis. Their hypothesis originated from the fact that Furin cleavage sites often naturally occur in coronaviruses, including close relatives of SARS, and in human pathogens. It would raise the question then, as to what does a Furin cleavage site contribute to viral infectivity. That is a testable hypothesis.
But it is rooted in the common natural occurrence of such sites in existing relatives of SARS, which actually reinforces a natural origin of SARS-COV2. Moreover, the article indicates that the US researchers conducting the study reported strains made in Wuhan, or contained in Wuhan. They are all quite distant from actual SARS-COV2. Hence...again, most likely natural origin. The idea of it being manufactured would require either Wuhan, or/both Eco Health hiding massive amounts of lab created strains from the NIH (you would have to have all the intermediates between their strain and the final SARS-COV2). That would be years of data deliberately being hid, while others being included. It frankly makes zero sense. Frankly, it confirms that SARS-COV2 was not related to this study at all.
The other thing this article does is highlight the difficulty in determining if something is "gain of function" research. Testing the role of Furin cleavage sites in coronavirus infectivity is an important question, where the results would be unknown. It could make them far less infectious, or make them more infectious. But the goal isn't to "gain a function" it is to test the evolutionary rule of such sites. So it does not officially qualify as gain of function.
Notably, as a precaution, the funded lab was required to report any new strains that did demonstrate a significant increase in infectivity...this in part is to allow them to reevaluate whether funding should continue, or if it now qualifies as "gain of function" research.
So all these documents released actually do more to clear Fauci, the NIH, and Eco-Health from any wrong doing. It also distracts from anyone actually looking for the origin of SARS-COV2. If by chance it did come from a lab accident, it didn't come from this research, that is pretty clear. But it would be naive to believe that this project was the only SARS related project being done in Wuhan.
Those looking for a lab-accident origin would be better off trying to find that data, instead of pushing this partisan hackery thats sole focus is to attack Fauci for some childish reason. Honestly, the Fauci demonization is one of the most childish and absurd things in politics/media right now.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2021, 09:43:53 PM
Its very simple. Create an atmosphere of fear and control follows, aina?
Okay...and what control? Social distancing is basically done. There's some mask mandates sprinkled throughout communities. There's some vaccine mandates by private companies and a test/vaccine mandate by the feds.
So what control are you so convinced about? And to what end?
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 22, 2021, 09:45:23 PM
seriously? you don't have a feel for what's going on? start with power and control. if you don't sense that...you are either dishonest or you are a follower. critical thinking has gone out the window
What control? And what will whomever do with that control?
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 22, 2021, 09:47:53 PM
If it doesn't matter why did Fauci lie about it?
At this moment in time, why do the origins matter, is what I'm asking?
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 22, 2021, 10:48:19 PM
At this moment in time, why do the origins matter, is what I'm asking?
once again, are you serious? you know that thingy about history? i'll let you take it from there. if you are still struggling, there might be a few others here who can help ya out, but it has to do with something about repetition and i guess you could throw insanity in there as well
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2021, 09:27:12 PM
For the past 19 months I've spent the bulk of my workday, 12 inches from people's pie hole. In retrospect I'm not convinced the U.S., from Trump, and now continuing with Biden, responded in the most prudent manner. Blind trust was given to Fauci/Birks to advise us and guide us. Did they have a sure fire plan to negotiate the pandemic. Hell no, only educated guesses. 6 feet, masks...not convinced either is a difference maker.
The vaccine was to be our ticket out of jail...its not. Being vaccinated merely kicks the can down the road a bit. Buy some time. The real answer is in the development of effective therapeutics. Face it, covid is not going away. Learn to live with it. The operative word is...live with it. We have created a society that is fearful and overreactive. Can measurement be made of the economic hardships created or mental illness developed from the stress of life under these conditions and isolation from human interaction?
Fauci doesn't have the answers and has flip flopped more times than a salmon during spawning season. Its time to put politics and agendas aside. Fauci's 15 minutes of fame is over. But, what the hell do I know? I'm just a fake doctor who didn't earn the degree, hey?
I've spent approximately 140 hours within 5 feet of COVID positive patients. Masks do work.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 22, 2021, 10:15:56 PM
he who laughs last...laughs...last
umm...0 for the zero. if you are being honest, you're part of the problem
Ellipses and right wing fear porn.
7 of 10
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 22, 2021, 11:54:11 PM
once again, are you serious? you know that thingy about history? i'll let you take it from there. if you are still struggling, there might be a few others here who can help ya out, but it has to do with something about repetition and i guess you could throw insanity in there as well
That reminds me of the 1918 pandemic and learning from history. It also reminds me of the pandemic response plan put into place under the George W. Bush presidency that was scrapped and gutted by Dear Leader. Insanity, indeed.
The Fox News crowd preaching about "fear and control" is pretty damn funny.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on October 23, 2021, 05:55:32 AM
The Fox News crowd preaching about "fear and control" is pretty damn funny.
Living in fear of fear porn is something else
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 22, 2021, 08:30:15 PM
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/10/nih-admits-funding-risky-virus-research-in-wuhan
Vanity Fair, not your run of the mill right wing rag. Of course officials at NIH say Fauci didn't lie because he didn't know about the findings of the report despite it being sent and reviewed in 2018 and 2020. Can we finally get this guy to resign and leave us alone at minimum. Really deserves to be charged and arrested lying under oath to Congress but I'd be fine just letting the old man walk off into the sunset.
Emmanuel Goldstein is the root of all our evils.
Doc, I am genuinely depressed and appalled at how a segment of society is choosing willful stupidity, facebook cures over vaccines, owning the libs over living. This could be all but over right now for America. A section of society had access to the golden ticket, dropped their drawers and took a huge dump on it. While pushing snake oil cures they heard about on facebook. Egged on by the talking head grifters who make their money by 'controlling' the weak-minded's fear. And those who repeat those lies.
I mentioned a few weeks ago that a patient cursed at me when I asked if he was vaccinated. What I didn't add is that I ended up doing CPR on him 10 minutes later and that he died. Two of his last 10 words on the planet were F you. His last were 'I'm scared' as we loaded him in the ambulance. He isn't the first COVID patient I have done CPR on. He is the first one to swear at me.
He showed me.
This didn't have to happen. This could be all but over in America. Choose to end it.
Quote from: tower912 on October 23, 2021, 08:08:57 AM
Doc, I am genuinely depressed and appalled at how a segment of society is choosing willful stupidity, facebook cures over vaccines, owning the libs over living. This could be all but over right now for America. A section of society had access to the golden ticket, dropped their drawers and took a huge dump on it. While pushing snake oil cures they heard about on facebook. Egged on by the talking head grifters who make their money by 'controlling' the weak-minded's fear. And those who repeat those lies.
I mentioned a few weeks ago that a patient cursed at me when I asked if he was vaccinated. What I didn't add is that I ended up doing CPR on him 10 minutes later and that he died. Two of his last 10 words on the planet were F you. His last were 'I'm scared' as we loaded him in the ambulance. He isn't the first COVID patient I have done CPR on. He is the first one to swear at me.
He showed me.
This didn't have to happen. This could be all but over in America. Choose to end it.
Grifters and snake oil salesmen. Even medical professionals here aren't immune to their charms.
Quote from: tower912 on October 23, 2021, 08:08:57 AM
Doc, I am genuinely depressed and appalled at how a segment of society is choosing willful stupidity, facebook cures over vaccines, owning the libs over living. This could be all but over right now for America. A section of society had access to the golden ticket, dropped their drawers and took a huge dump on it. While pushing snake oil cures they heard about on facebook. Egged on by the talking head grifters who make their money by 'controlling' the weak-minded's fear. And those who repeat those lies.
I mentioned a few weeks ago that a patient cursed at me when I asked if he was vaccinated. What I didn't add is that I ended up doing CPR on him 10 minutes later and that he died. Two of his last 10 words on the planet were F you. His last were 'I'm scared' as we loaded him in the ambulance. He isn't the first COVID patient I have done CPR on. He is the first one to swear at me.
He showed me.
This didn't have to happen. This could be all but over in America. Choose to end it.
This is a depressing story
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on October 23, 2021, 05:55:32 AM
The Fox News crowd preaching about "fear and control" is pretty damn funny.
https://www.psypost.org/2021/10/conservative-media-use-predicted-increasing-acceptance-of-covid-19-conspiracies-over-the-course-of-2020-61997
Right, but let's not be surprised.
Quote from: jesmu84 on October 22, 2021, 10:45:56 PM
What control? And what will whomever do with that control?
I have to admit I have been miss understanding the tools the gov't uses to control the population....
Playing the national anthem before every gathering and having people stand and sing? Not about control. Mask mandates that reduce the amount of pathogens in the air during a pandemic? All about controlling people.
An omnipresent police force that is militarized better than 75% of other nations armies? Not about control. Vaccine mandates that help protect others in our society? All about controlling people.
Reducing/eliminating social welfare and unemployment benefits without having a minimum livable wage? Not about control. Social distancing requirements that may, in tandem with masks and vaccines, limit the spread of a disease in our society? All about controlling people.
I can see clearly now!
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on October 23, 2021, 05:55:32 AM
The Fox News crowd preaching about "fear and control" is pretty damn funny.
Not to mention preaching, "Its time to put politics and agendas aside."
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on October 23, 2021, 05:55:32 AM
The Fox News crowd preaching about "fear and control" is pretty damn funny.
Kinda funny that whenever 82 or I say something like this, we get called out by you or Wags or Hards, etc.
We're making everything about politics. You all are making wise commentaries. what a joke.
Almost like an occasional post here or there is different than 80% of ones posts being parroting the same political nonsense and talking points over and over. But yes, what a joke that everyone picks on the wholly innocent Jockey. A witch hunt not seen since Salem
Quote from: Jockey on October 23, 2021, 01:40:48 PM
We're making everything about politics. You all are making wise commentaries.
Ya finally figured it out.
But seriously what a little ankle biter you are.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 23, 2021, 04:32:52 PM
Almost like an occasional post here or there is different than 80% of ones posts being parroting the same political nonsense and talking points over and over. But yes, what a joke that everyone picks on the wholly innocent Jockey. A witch hunt not seen since Salem
No kidding. Complete lack of self-awareness.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on October 23, 2021, 05:55:32 AM
The Fox News crowd preaching about "fear and control" is pretty damn funny.
and so the cnn/msnbc crowd, umm...i mean small gatherings does what? preaches laissez-faire...bwhahahaha that's a good one right there. you know what we are talking about. so what are you/they demanding of your little people up nort there...do this, don't do that, can't ya read the signs
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 23, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
and so the cnn/msnbc crowd, umm...i mean small gatherings does what? preaches laissez-faire...bwhahahaha that's a good one right there. you know what we are talking about. so what are you/they demanding of your little people up nort there...do this, don't do that, can't ya read the signs
I literally have no idea what any of this means.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 23, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
and so the cnn/msnbc crowd, umm...i mean small gatherings does what? preaches laissez-faire...bwhahahaha that's a good one right there. you know what we are talking about. so what are you/they demanding of your little people up nort there...do this, don't do that, can't ya read the signs
Hang this in the Louvre
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on October 23, 2021, 07:24:14 PM
I literally have no idea what any of this means.
I've never seen anyone get stupider in real time, but every day you see something new. And well.... here we are.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 23, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
and so the cnn/msnbc crowd, umm...i mean small gatherings does what? preaches laissez-faire...bwhahahaha that's a good one right there. you know what we are talking about. so what are you/they demanding of your little people up nort there...do this, don't do that, can't ya read the signs
Go see a doctor.
This isn't a joke. I'm honestly concerned for you.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 23, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
and so the cnn/msnbc crowd, umm...i mean small gatherings does what? preaches laissez-faire...bwhahahaha that's a good one right there. you know what we are talking about. so what are you/they demanding of your little people up nort there...do this, don't do that, can't ya read the signs
Roqqet speaks.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XBcVB7CTPCM/TQcU1DHIgJI/AAAAAAAAD3o/s6je1Bisf44/s1600/DrunkOldMan.jpg)
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 23, 2021, 07:03:12 PM
and so the cnn/msnbc crowd, umm...i mean small gatherings does what? preaches laissez-faire...bwhahahaha that's a good one right there. you know what we are talking about. so what are you/they demanding of your little people up nort there...do this, don't do that, can't ya read the signs
Rocket, I say this out of concern and in all seriousness. I have no idea what you are trying to say, and honestly, if a student of mine wrote such ramblings for anything (email/test answer etc.), I'd submit them as a student I'm concerned about for a welfare check.
I sincerely hope everything is ok.
Anyway ... back to the vaccines ...
An Elon University poll showed that 70% of all North Carolinians 18-and-up have been vaccinated.
About 66% of the unvaccinated survey respondents said they were unlikely to get the vaccine -- 52% very unlikely, 8% moderately unlikely, 6% slightly unlikely.
Of those who have been vaccinated, 92% said they were glad they got the shot; 8% said they wish they hadn't.
https://www.elon.edu/u/elon-poll/wp-content/uploads/sites/819/2021/10/Elon-Poll-Report-102221.pdf
Quote from: forgetful on October 23, 2021, 11:12:06 PM
Rocket, I say this out of concern and in all seriousness. I have no idea what you are trying to say, and honestly, if a student of mine wrote such ramblings for anything (email/test answer etc.), I'd submit them as a student I'm concerned about for a welfare check.
I sincerely hope everything is ok.
so now the format for scoop submission is what? for all of you concerned, your lack of understanding of this is a compliment and makes my point. so many of you do not understand a lot of this when viewed thru your prism. if sully is going to make an assinine comment, he going to get one back-his (and the rest of you for that matter) "go to" sources for "information" are the embodiment of fear and control-just axk dr fettucine, who btw should have been done years ago. now, he should be in jail
all good here buddy and thank you for the concern
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 24, 2021, 10:27:17 AM
so now the format for scoop submission is what? for all of you concerned, your lack of understanding of this is a compliment and makes my point. so many of you do not understand a lot of this when viewed thru your prism. if sully is going to make an assinine comment, he going to get one back-his (and the rest of you for that matter) "go to" sources for "information" are the embodiment of fear and control-just axk dr fettucine, who btw should have been done years ago. now, he should be in jail
all good here buddy and thank you for the concern
One of the things that is total misconception, is that those of us seeing COVID patients go home and read The NY Times or watch Rachel Maddow. Most of my co workers go home and try to avoid anything to do with COVID. We don't need anything or anyone to tell us how serious this condition is, when you have people dying everyday in the hospital.
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on October 24, 2021, 10:27:17 AM
so now the format for scoop submission is what? for all of you concerned, your lack of understanding of this is a compliment and makes my point. so many of you do not understand a lot of this when viewed thru your prism. if sully is going to make an assinine comment, he going to get one back-his (and the rest of you for that matter) "go to" sources for "information" are the embodiment of fear and control-just axk dr fettucine, who btw should have been done years ago. now, he should be in jail
all good here buddy and thank you for the concern
"Assinine"
"Axk"
"dr fettucine"
I need to sit down. 10 of 10
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2021, 10:33:59 AM
"Assinine"
"Axk"
"dr fettucine"
I need to sit down. 10 of 10
10 of 10 is good, eyn'a? thank you
I took the third full dose of Moderna on Friday. Felt like crap all day Saturday . Everything back to normal today.
Quote from: Herman Cain on October 24, 2021, 12:24:53 PM
I took the third full dose of Moderna on Friday. Felt like crap all day Saturday . Everything back to normal today.
Got my 3rd Pfizer last sat. Same here the next day. Bulletproof now.
Actually, more breakthrough cases at work v. non vaccinated. A few are really sick, but not hospitalized fortunately.
"Only the most anti-intellectual, stunted cretins would concoct reasons why it would be better not to learn everything we can about its origins and whether US officials lied."
https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1452275676611022857
So 85% of the Scoop crowd he is referring too I guess.
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 24, 2021, 01:39:34 PM
"Only the most anti-intellectual, stunted cretins would concoct reasons why it would be better not to learn everything we can about its origins and whether US officials lied."
https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1452275676611022857
So 85% of the Scoop crowd he is referring too I guess.
Cool story, bro
Quote from: pacearrow02 on October 24, 2021, 01:39:34 PM
"Only the most anti-intellectual, stunted cretins would concoct reasons why it would be better not to learn everything we can about its origins and whether US officials lied."
https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1452275676611022857
So 85% of the Scoop crowd he is referring too I guess.
Are there really posters here who don't think these things are important? I find that hard to believe.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 02:23:39 PM
Are there really posters here who don't think these things are important? I find that hard to believe.
Yup, no one said anything remotely like that. But paceytroll does nothing but troll.
Quote from: naginiF on October 23, 2021, 10:32:43 AM
I have to admit I have been miss understanding the tools the gov't uses to control the population....
Playing the national anthem before every gathering and having people stand and sing? Not about control. Mask mandates that reduce the amount of pathogens in the air during a pandemic? All about controlling people.
An omnipresent police force that is militarized better than 75% of other nations armies? Not about control. Vaccine mandates that help protect others in our society? All about controlling people.
Reducing/eliminating social welfare and unemployment benefits without having a minimum livable wage? Not about control. Social distancing requirements that may, in tandem with masks and vaccines, limit the spread of a disease in our society? All about controlling people.
I can see clearly now!
Yours is a very odd post.
What does playing the National Anthem and allowing people to sing, stand, sit, kneel or buy beer at the concession stands - IOW, what people's choices really are - have to do with control?
The police are omnipresent? LOL. Do they "control" the bad guys? I hope so. Isn't that their job?
And however one feels about welfare, unemployment benefits and the minimum wage they are all ways the government "controls" its citizens. Whether you're in the group they're taking from or the one they're giving to more involvement (larger transfers) means greater control.
It's fair to discuss where and how much control we should give to government but as long as people insist less equals more we'll get nowhere.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 03:06:29 PM
Yours is a very odd post.
What does playing the National Anthem and allowing people to sing, stand, sit, kneel or buy beer at the concession stands - IOW, what people's choices really are - have to do with control?
The police are omnipresent? LOL. Do they "control" the bad guys? I hope so. Isn't that their job?
And however one feels about welfare, unemployment benefits and the minimum wage they are all ways the government "controls" its citizens. Whether you're in the group they're taking from or the one they're giving to more involvement (larger transfers) means greater control.
It's fair to discuss where and how much control we should give to government but as long as people insist less equals more we'll get nowhere.
Finigan has been divorced from reality for a while now.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 02:23:39 PM
Are there really posters here who don't think these things are important? I find that hard to believe.
What would the point be, honestly?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 24, 2021, 03:53:46 PM
What would the point be, honestly?
If it was caused in nature, I'd like to know the culprit. We never found the cause of the 1918 pandemic. I think it's important to know and try and isolate.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 03:06:29 PM
Yours is a very odd post.
What does playing the National Anthem and allowing people to sing, stand, sit, kneel or buy beer at the concession stands - IOW, what people's choices really are - have to do with control?
The police are omnipresent? LOL. Do they "control" the bad guys? I hope so. Isn't that their job?
And however one feels about welfare, unemployment benefits and the minimum wage they are all ways the government "controls" its citizens. Whether you're in the group they're taking from or the one they're giving to more involvement (larger transfers) means greater control.
It's fair to discuss where and how much control we should give to government but as long as people insist less equals more we'll get nowhere.
Simply pointing out that what the brain trust of Rocket, 4Ever, etc. consider implements the gov't uses to control the population.......vaccine/mask mandates are far from actual control.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 24, 2021, 03:49:43 PM
Finigan has been divorced from reality for a while now.
Keefe Jr. joins the conversation......not your normal level of creepy though.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 24, 2021, 03:57:27 PM
If it was caused in nature, I'd like to know the culprit. We never found the cause of the 1918 pandemic. I think it's important to know and try and isolate.
Agreed. We absolutely should learn the origin of this deadly coronavirus.
Similarly, I think we all agree that we need to find out exactly who was behind the violent coup attempt to overthrow the U.S. government on 1/6/21.
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2021, 05:02:56 PM
Agreed. We absolutely should learn the origin of this deadly coronavirus.
Similarly, I think we all agree that we need to find out exactly who was behind the violent coup attempt to overthrow the U.S. government on 1/6/21.
The 2nd one will be much easier to deduce
Ohh good. We haven't had a 1/6/21 reference in about 24 hours. Glad we can keep on schedule.
I always like to know the cause and point of origin after the fire is out. Usually don't worry about it while it is still burning.
I don't think China ever give enough access to prove it was man made.
I am working under the assumption it made the leap from animals. Muggsy may not like that.
Keep sciencing, as the next one may be worse.
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2021, 05:02:56 PM
Agreed. We absolutely should learn the origin of this deadly coronavirus.
Similarly, I think we all agree that we need to find out exactly who was behind the violent coup attempt to overthrow the U.S. government on 1/6/21.
🤡
Quote from: naginiF on October 24, 2021, 04:11:58 PM
Keefe Jr. joins the conversation......not your normal level of creepy though.
Your user name is finigan spelled backwards. Figuring that out is not being creepy, that's just a dumb username if your last name is Finigan.
Quote from: JWags85 on October 24, 2021, 05:21:11 PM
Ohh good. We haven't had a 1/6/21 reference in about 24 hours. Glad we can keep on schedule.
Broken record.
There are usernames on here that aren't stupid, Ziggy?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 24, 2021, 03:53:46 PM
What would the point be, honestly?
Almost 5 million killed and there's no point finding out how or why this happened? Please tell us you're kidding.
Quote from: tower912 on October 24, 2021, 07:08:36 PM
There are usernames on here that aren't stupid, Ziggy?
Yes
Quote from: MU82 on October 24, 2021, 05:02:56 PM
Agreed. We absolutely should learn the origin of this deadly coronavirus.
Similarly, I think we all agree that we need to find out exactly who was behind the violent coup attempt to overthrow the U.S. government on 1/6/21.
4.94 million dead, a couple hundred million infected, mental illness off the charts, millions of school children falling hopelessly behind, economies ruined, etc., etc., etc. vs one dead protester among a few hundred other unarmed bozos who were daffy but certainly not daffy enough to think they were involved in a violent (weapon free) coup attempt.
Good comps, they no doubt deserve the same amount of scrutiny.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 10:07:10 PM
4.94 million dead, a couple hundred million infected, mental illness off the charts, millions of school children falling hopelessly behind, economies ruined, etc., etc., etc. vs one dead protester among a few hundred other unarmed bozos who were daffy but certainly not daffy enough to think they were involved in a violent (weapon free) coup attempt.
Good comps, they no doubt deserve the same amount of scrutiny.
It might just be that BOTH are very bad and BOTH should be fully investigated. I realize your politics interferes with your ability to reach such an obvious conclusion, but it is what it is..
And no, economies are not "ruined" and children aren't "hopelessly" behind. Words have meanings, and you're not using these correctly.
And what about the dead cop on 1/6 and 5he many others injured? Only some blue lives matter?
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2021, 10:38:51 PM
It might just be that BOTH are very bad and BOTH should be fully investigated. I realize your politics interferes with your ability to reach such an obvious conclusion, but it is what it is..
And no, economies are not "ruined" and children aren't "hopelessly" behind. Words have meanings, and you're not using these correctly.
Yes, words do have meaning. What happened Jan 6 was awful, but calling it a "violent attempt to overthrow the government" is absurd. We're those few hundred folks going to walk into the Capitol armed with nothing but their cellphones and just "take over"?
So I'll substitute "thousands of businesses" for economies and apologize for my hyperbole. I won't backtrack on children being left "hopelessly behind", especially those in our poorest communities who were already on the brink. Regrettably, I think that assessment is accurate.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 10:52:40 PM
Yes, words do have meaning. What happened Jan 6 was awful, but calling it a "violent attempt to overthrow the government" is absurd. We're those few hundred folks going to walk into the Capitol armed with nothing but their cellphones and just "take over"?
So I'll substitute "thousands of businesses" for economies and apologize for my hyperbole. I won't backtrack on children being left "hopelessly behind", especially those in our poorest communities who were already on the brink. Regrettably, I think that assessment is accurate.
You really are telling on yourself here, Lenny.
So far, about 685 people have been charged in connection with the Capitol riots and estimates have between 800 and 1,000 people entering the building that day, with thousands more on the Capitol grounds. Unless you believe literally hundreds of people are being falsely prosecuted, that seems a bit more than your insistence that it was just "a few hundred folks."
Armed with nothing more than cell phones? Among the weapons these "daffy folks" were carrying, and in many instances used against law enforcement, that day were stun guns, pepper spray, baseball bats, flagpoles, hockey sticks, axes, knives, fire extinguishers and clubs. Oh, and as of June, four people had been charged with carrying a firearm on the Capitol grounds that day.
Now, who exactly told you these daffy folks weren't armed? I'm thinking it starts with an 'F' and ends with an 'X.'
And why no mention of the groups to which these daffy folk belonged? You know, the Oath Keepers, the 3 Percenters, the Proud Boys, etc.? Or the evidence that these groups planned their actions well in advance?
And just so we're clear, the victim you describe as a "protester" illegally broke into the Capitol with the stated intent to stop one of our most sacred Constitutional processes, then attempted to smash her way through a closed door into the Speaker's lobby to get at the members of Congress hiding there.
Lastly, you're wrong about students being "hopelessly" behind. Kids fell behind, for sure, but the notion that the learning loss is irretrievable is not one shared in the educational community.
I don't want to get the thread locked - and maybe I've already gone too far (sorry, Rocky and Topper) - so I'll stop there.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 24, 2021, 11:40:11 PM
You really are telling on yourself here, Lenny.
So far, about 685 people have been charged in connection with the Capitol riots and estimates have between 800 and 1,000 people entering the building that day, with thousands more on the Capitol grounds. Unless you believe literally hundreds of people are being falsely prosecuted, that seems a bit more than your insistence that it was just "a few hundred folks."
Armed with nothing more than cell phones? Among the weapons these "daffy folks" were carrying, and in many instances used against law enforcement, that day were stun guns, pepper spray, baseball bats, flagpoles, hockey sticks, axes, knives, fire extinguishers and clubs. Oh, and as of June, four people had been charged with carrying a firearm on the Capitol grounds that day.
Now, who exactly told you these daffy folks weren't armed? I'm thinking it starts with an 'F' and ends with an 'X.'
And why no mention of the groups to which these daffy folk belonged? You know, the Oath Keepers, the 3 Percenters, the Proud Boys, etc.? Or the evidence that these groups planned their actions well in advance?
And just so we're clear, the victim you describe as a "protester" illegally broke into the Capitol with the stated intent to stop one of our most sacred Constitutional processes, then attempted to smash her way through a closed door into the Speaker's lobby to get at the members of Congress hiding there.
Lastly, you're wrong about students being "hopelessly" behind. Kids fell behind, for sure, but the notion that the learning loss is irretrievable is not one shared in the educational community.
I don't want to get the thread locked - and maybe I've already gone too far (sorry, Rocky and Topper) - so I'll stop there.
I'm telling on myself? LOL. I hate what happened Jan 6 and have no sympathy for the mob who stormed the Capitol. But let's be honest. 684 people have been charged with crimes considerably short of sedition or treason. And from what we've seen from the current Justice Department I don't think anyone could opine that they're going easy on these bozos.
My opinion? It was a mob of angry people from disparate groups who (like mobs often do) got horribly out of control. If they really think that 800 mostly unarmed people were going to take over the US government they belong in mental institutions rather than jails.
Florida's governor thought it a bad idea to offer people a $100 incentive to get vaccinated, but wants to pay $5,000 to people who come to his state to remain unvaccinated.
What a country!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 10:52:40 PM
Yes, words do have meaning. What happened Jan 6 was awful, but calling it a "violent attempt to overthrow the government" is absurd. We're those few hundred folks going to walk into the Capitol armed with nothing but their cellphones and just "take over"?
This isn't the place to litigate this, but lets remember some details. This all occurred in conjunction with:
1. The POTUS pressuring state governments, the DOJ, and the VP to overturn the election.
2. The POTUS pressuring Pence to decertify the results so that congress could put him in power.
3. When the above didn't work, the POTUS helped organize a "stop the steal" rally, as an additional pressure on the VP and congress to overturn the election.
4. That rally chanted "hang Mike Pence" as a form of additional pressure.
5. When all that didn't work, they stormed the capital and were expressly looking for Pence and top democrats leaders.
6. It remains to be seen, but there is some evidence that members of the GOP were complicit with planning these sets of events and facilitating an attack on the capital. If those are true, it is imperative that we know the details of it. Especially since it appears that these individuals are attempting to return to power.
An investigation is needed to ensure the integrity of our democratic institutions. Sweeping it under the rug makes us look like a mockery of democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's look at knowing the origin of COVID.
1. It will not improve the quality of medical treatments, nor bring back those that have died.
2. It will not save future individuals from COVID...only the vaccines will do that.
3. Even if it was a lab accident, it won't decrease the likelihood of future accidents.
4. Investigations into natural reservoirs will enhance our understanding of future threats.
5. Investigations into any role of China in the process is not a role of science, nor will that have any effect on science. It is a diplomatic process.
4/5 should be done independent of any formal investigation. We need to understand future threats and that is ongoing. The diplomatic process with China is our biggest national security concern...not in relation to COVID origins, but rather into their global threat. We should be focusing on them as a security concern, not trying to publicly vilify them without evidence...the latter is more likely to lead to major economic and possibly military confrontation.
-----------------------
I'd argue the first investigation has much much more importance than the latter. Simply because looking for natural origins of SARS-like viruses will be ongoing no matter what.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 25, 2021, 07:47:07 AM
I'm telling on myself? LOL. I hate what happened Jan 6 and have no sympathy for the mob who stormed the Capitol. But let's be honest. 684 people have been charged with crimes considerably short of sedition or treason. And from what we've seen from the current Justice Department I don't think anyone could opine that they're going easy on these bozos.
My opinion? It was a mob of angry people from disparate groups who (like mobs often do) got horribly out of control. If they really think that 800 mostly unarmed people were going to take over the US government they belong in mental institutions rather than jails.
First of all, there were many thousands of people there, not 800. Their aim wasn't to physically occupy the Capital long-term, it was to stage an insurrection so that the rightful President-Elect would not be, effectively, confirmed. THEY ATTEMPTED TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND INSTALL A DICTATOR, end of story. And the outgoing President was the one that encouraged them to overthrow the rightfully elected government.
Minimizing this as "800 people" is really something when it was the defeated POTUS and dozens of Representatives and Senators playing an ACTIVE part in attempting to overthrow the government.
Quote from: TSmith34 on October 25, 2021, 09:50:14 AM
First of all, there were many thousands of people there, not 800. Their aim wasn't to physically occupy the Capital long-term, it was to stage an insurrection so that the rightful President-Elect would not be, effectively, confirmed. THEY ATTEMPTED TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND INSTALL A DICTATOR, end of story. And the outgoing President was the one that encouraged them to overthrow the rightfully elected government.
Minimizing this as "800 people" is really something when it was the defeated POTUS and dozens of Representatives and Senators playing an ACTIVE part in attempting to overthrow the government.
There were a lot of extremists in that crowd on Jan 6. They let their prejudice triumph over their rationality and common sense.
Your post does the same thing.
A vaccine and an antibody walk into a bar...
Quote from: forgetful on October 25, 2021, 09:21:43 AM
This isn't the place to litigate this, but lets remember some details. This all occurred in conjunction with:
1. The POTUS pressuring state governments, the DOJ, and the VP to overturn the election.
2. The POTUS pressuring Pence to decertify the results so that congress could put him in power.
3. When the above didn't work, the POTUS helped organize a "stop the steal" rally, as an additional pressure on the VP and congress to overturn the election.
4. That rally chanted "hang Mike Pence" as a form of additional pressure.
5. When all that didn't work, they stormed the capital and were expressly looking for Pence and top democrats leaders.
6. It remains to be seen, but there is some evidence that members of the GOP were complicit with planning these sets of events and facilitating an attack on the capital. If those are true, it is imperative that we know the details of it. Especially since it appears that these individuals are attempting to return to power.
An investigation is needed to ensure the integrity of our democratic institutions. Sweeping it under the rug makes us look like a mockery of democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's look at knowing the origin of COVID.
1. It will not improve the quality of medical treatments, nor bring back those that have died.
2. It will not save future individuals from COVID...only the vaccines will do that.
3. Even if it was a lab accident, it won't decrease the likelihood of future accidents.
4. Investigations into natural reservoirs will enhance our understanding of future threats.
5. Investigations into any role of China in the process is not a role of science, nor will that have any effect on science. It is a diplomatic process.
4/5 should be done independent of any formal investigation. We need to understand future threats and that is ongoing. The diplomatic process with China is our biggest national security concern...not in relation to COVID origins, but rather into their global threat. We should be focusing on them as a security concern, not trying to publicly vilify them without evidence...the latter is more likely to lead to major economic and possibly military confrontation.
-----------------------
I'd argue the first investigation has much much more importance than the latter. Simply because looking for natural origins of SARS-like viruses will be ongoing no matter what.
Respectfully 100% disagree.
Quote from: forgetful on October 25, 2021, 09:21:43 AM
This isn't the place to litigate this, but lets remember some details. This all occurred in conjunction with:
1. The POTUS pressuring state governments, the DOJ, and the VP to overturn the election.
2. The POTUS pressuring Pence to decertify the results so that congress could put him in power.
3. When the above didn't work, the POTUS helped organize a "stop the steal" rally, as an additional pressure on the VP and congress to overturn the election.
4. That rally chanted "hang Mike Pence" as a form of additional pressure.
5. When all that didn't work, they stormed the capital and were expressly looking for Pence and top democrats leaders.
6. It remains to be seen, but there is some evidence that members of the GOP were complicit with planning these sets of events and facilitating an attack on the capital. If those are true, it is imperative that we know the details of it. Especially since it appears that these individuals are attempting to return to power.
An investigation is needed to ensure the integrity of our democratic institutions. Sweeping it under the rug makes us look like a mockery of democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's look at knowing the origin of COVID.
1. It will not improve the quality of medical treatments, nor bring back those that have died.
2. It will not save future individuals from COVID...only the vaccines will do that.
3. Even if it was a lab accident, it won't decrease the likelihood of future accidents.
4. Investigations into natural reservoirs will enhance our understanding of future threats.
5. Investigations into any role of China in the process is not a role of science, nor will that have any effect on science. It is a diplomatic process.
4/5 should be done independent of any formal investigation. We need to understand future threats and that is ongoing. The diplomatic process with China is our biggest national security concern...not in relation to COVID origins, but rather into their global threat. We should be focusing on them as a security concern, not trying to publicly vilify them without evidence...the latter is more likely to lead to major economic and possibly military confrontation.
-----------------------
I'd argue the first investigation has much much more importance than the latter. Simply because looking for natural origins of SARS-like viruses will be ongoing no matter what.
Missing the Willard Hotel 'Team Trump command center' to plan the effort to deny Biden the presidency.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 25, 2021, 10:22:07 AM
There were a lot of extremists in that crowd on Jan 6. They let their prejudice triumph over their rationality and common sense.
Your post does the same thing.
This is an exceedingly generous interpretation of what went on.
Honest question ... what do you believe was the intent of the hundreds of people who stormed the Capitol that day, busting through doors and windows, assaulting police officers and chanting things like "Hang Mike Pence" and "Where are you, Nancy?"
What do you believe they had in mind?
Before you answer, keep in mind that they were there for an event called "Stop the Steal," where they shouted "Fight for Trump," were primed with false information about election fraud, and were told that unless they did something about it, they would lose their country.
So DeSantis is now offering $5,000 bonuses to cops that are *specifically* unvaccinated. What a piece of crap. What the unnatural carnal knowledge is wrong with Florida?
Received booster shot on Friday. Sore arm. Some added stiffness in my joints and back. Easy peasy.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 25, 2021, 10:51:24 AM
Respectfully 100% disagree.
Thank you for the reply. I appreciate your willingness to read it, and accept that we do not see eye to eye.
I will note, there is plenty of room for both investigations.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 25, 2021, 10:22:07 AM
There were a lot of extremists in that crowd on Jan 6. They let their prejudice triumph over their rationality and common sense.
Your post does the same thing.
Still in denial.
They were there for the purpose of the overthrow of our democracy in conjunction with the WH. We have the details, the emails, the letters, the clandestine meetings, the attempt by the Justice Dept. to lead the overthrow that was only stopped by the threat of a mass resignation. Try reading about Eastman, Clark, or any of the 140 Reps who voted for the overthrow. Try looking at the ongoing attempts. Try sympathizing with the fact that MY tax dollars here in Wisconsin continue today to pay for the still active attempt at a coup.
Wake the H@ll up.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 24, 2021, 09:48:54 PM
Almost 5 million killed and there's no point finding out how or why this happened? Please tell us you're kidding.
I'm not kidding. It literally changes nothing. If it came from bats, do we declare war on bats? If it came from a lab in China, are we surprised? What would repercussions look like? What would be the point? What do you expect to change that has not already changed?
Of course I'm curious, but the pounding of the drum is so pointless.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 25, 2021, 12:29:16 PM
I'm not kidding. It literally changes nothing. If it came from bats, do we declare war on bats? If it came from a lab in China, are we surprised? What would repercussions look like? What would be the point? What do you expect to change that has not already changed?
Of course I'm curious, but the pounding of the drum is so pointless.
There would be no repercussions on China that mattered
It will be good to know from a 'what to do next time' perspective. Politically, I honestly don't care. I didn't a year ago and I don't now. How to you kill it? Oh, wait, we know that. How do we get everyone to take the vaccine? That is the question that matters now.
Quote from: tower912 on October 25, 2021, 12:41:10 PM
It will be good to know from a 'what to do next time' perspective. Politically, I honestly don't care. I didn't a year ago and I don't now. How to you kill it? Oh, wait, we know that. How do we get everyone to take the vaccine? That is the question that matters now.
I'm afraid the only possible answer is mandates.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2021, 11:16:27 AM
This is an exceedingly generous interpretation of what went on.
Honest question ... what do you believe was the intent of the hundreds of people who stormed the Capitol that day, busting through doors and windows, assaulting police officers and chanting things like "Hang Mike Pence" and "Where are you, Nancy?"
What do you believe they had in mind?
Before you answer, keep in mind that they were there for an event called "Stop the Steal," where they shouted "Fight for Trump," were primed with false information about election fraud, and were told that unless they did something about it, they would lose their country.
Pak,
Who were these folks? All different types. Everything from disillusioned average Joe's to white supremicists and somewhere in between. But calling them revolutionaries would be a bridge too far. They weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but given their numbers and how well they were "armed" I sure they knew that overthrowing the government wasn't "the plan" or even a remote possibility. But when folks (many already from the fringes) armed with false information convene there's always the danger that some part of them will turn into a mob. Mobs love chants but chanting murderous slogans isn't murder. Do you think we should change that? Do you think violent chants should be taken literally and be the equivalent of violent acts? I don't, but if you do, charge the chanters with attempted murder. And round up the "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want 'em? Now!" crowd while you're at it. Threatening government officials (or anyone else for that matter) with violence is wrong and should be punished. But it's not tantamount to revolution. 10 months and 684 arrests later the Biden Justice Department evidently agrees with me.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 25, 2021, 12:35:17 PM
There would be no repercussions on China that mattered
Exactly. Some people want a boogeyman to deflect blame. As if China was the one the responded poorly to the virus in the US.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 25, 2021, 12:58:55 PM
Pak,
Who were these folks? All different types. Everything from disillusioned average Joe's to white supremicists and somewhere in between. But calling them revolutionaries would be a bridge too far. They weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but given their numbers and how well they were "armed" I sure they knew that overthrowing the government wasn't "the plan" or even a remote possibility. But when folks (many already from the fringes) armed with false information convene there's always the danger that some part of them will turn into a mob. Mobs love chants but chanting murderous slogans isn't murder. Do you think we should change that? Do you think violent chants should be taken literally and be the equivalent of violent acts? I don't, but if you do, charge the chanters with attempted murder. And round up the "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want 'em? Now!" crowd while you're at it. Threatening government officials (or anyone else for that matter) with violence is wrong and should be punished. But it's not tantamount to revolution. 10 months and 684 arrests later the Biden Justice Department evidently agrees with me.
You're delusional. I'll just leave it at that.
Quote from: Jockey on October 25, 2021, 12:24:49 PM
Still in denial.
They were there for the purpose of the overthrow of our democracy in conjunction with the WH. We have the details, the emails, the letters, the clandestine meetings, the attempt by the Justice Dept. to lead the overthrow that was only stopped by the threat of a mass resignation. Try reading about Eastman, Clark, or any of the 140 Reps who voted for the overthrow. Try looking at the ongoing attempts. Try sympathizing with the fact that MY tax dollars here in Wisconsin continue today to pay for the still active attempt at a coup.
Wake the H@ll up.
Conspiracy theories are alive and well on both sides of the fence.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 25, 2021, 01:02:08 PM
You're delusional. I'll just leave it at that.
I'll consider the source - and leave it at that.