MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MuggsyB on June 08, 2021, 07:03:20 PM
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Will we know next month?
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The bird is the word.
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Youneverknow.
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Should know something by July 7.
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I'm not confident
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I don't know much but...
I know I love you
That may be all I need to know
Look at these eyes they never seen what matters
Look at these dreams so beaten and so battered
I don't know much but I know I love you
That may be all I need to know
So many questions still left unanswered
So much I've never broken through
And when I feel you near me, sometimes I see so clearly
That only truth I'll never know is me and you
Look at this man so blessed with inspiration
Look at this soul still searching for salvation
I don't know much but I know I love you
That may be all I need to know
I don't know much but I know I love you
That may be all I need to know
I don't know much but I know I love you
That may be all there is to know
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I'm not confident
Damn. Care to elaborate or is it just a gut feeling?
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Mum’s
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Honestly, how much does he move the needle? Very little if you ask me.
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Honestly, how much does he move the needle? Very little if you ask me.
Well if he came back he would most likely be the leading scorer and a starter so I’d say he moves the needle quite a bit.
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Honestly, how much does he move the needle? Very little if you ask me.
Garcia is the second player today, along with Morsell, that some Scoopers are saying doesn't "move the needle" much. And now that I think about it, I believe some said the same about DJ when he decided to leave.
I guess the MU needle is so stubborn it's difficult to move it.
Garcia was a burger boy who led all BEast freshmen in scoring and rebounding despite playing under The Worst Coach In College Basketball History. LOTS of college athletes get a LOT better between their freshman and sophomore seasons.
I'd sure as hell like to see how he moves the needle for us this coming season.
And I'm not sure how it could be spun as anything but a bad loss for the program if he goes. The program will survive. It's bigger than one player. But him leaving would not be a good thing, so I'm sorry to hear what TAMU just said.
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Honestly, how much does he move the needle? Very little if you ask me.
A guy who is contemplating going to the NBA after freshman year doesn't move the needle?
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A guy who is contemplating going to the NBA after freshman year doesn't move the needle?
That does seem silly. There really is no grey area here. He makes MU a better team.
If he’s talking the national championship needle, he has a point.
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Garcia has been invited to the NBA Combine.
https://twitter.com/dwolfsonkstp/status/1402325978215456772?s=21
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He gowne. Next man up, aina?
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Garcia has been invited to the NBA Combine.
https://twitter.com/dwolfsonkstp/status/1402325978215456772?s=21
Good for Dawson.
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Happy for the young man.
I hope he shoots lights-out at the combine.
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A guy who is contemplating going to the NBA after freshman year doesn't move the needle?
ah...I’m pretty sure the Celtics are not thinking about trading-up to draft Garcia. Thinking you’re NBA talent doesn’t mean you’re NBA talent.
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This team is going to stink next year if Dawson leaves. Shaka hasn’t brought in any players better than him or DJ. People here dismissing Dawson as no big loss must know more than NBA people
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ah...I’m pretty sure the Celtics are not thinking about trading-up to draft Garcia. Thinking you’re NBA talent doesn’t mean you’re NBA talent.
Jonathan Givony
@DraftExpress
Every NBA team submitted votes for 70 players for the NBA Combine and G League Elite Camp today. Around 100 players will be invited after the tally count to participate in one of the two camps. With the Combine dates pushed back a month, expect quite a few int'l players to attend
https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1400903980969041923
There are 355 NBA Draft entrants so far and Garcia was one of 100 invited to the combine. 60 of those will get drafted.
I think it's pretty safe to say he's an NBA talent.
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Jonathan Givony
@DraftExpress
Every NBA team submitted votes for 70 players for the NBA Combine and G League Elite Camp today. Around 100 players will be invited after the tally count to participate in one of the two camps. With the Combine dates pushed back a month, expect quite a few int'l players to attend
https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1400903980969041923
There are 355 NBA Draft entrants so far and Garcia was one of 100 invited to the combine. 60 of those will get drafted.
I think it's pretty safe to say he's an NBA talent.
Do foreign players get invites?
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Do foreign players get invites?
Jonathan Givony
@DraftExpress
Every NBA team submitted votes for 70 players for the NBA Combine and G League Elite Camp today. Around 100 players will be invited after the tally count to participate in one of the two camps. With the Combine dates pushed back a month, expect quite a few int'l players to attend
yes
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ah...I’m pretty sure the Celtics are not thinking about trading-up to draft Garcia. Thinking you’re NBA talent doesn’t mean you’re NBA talent.
So the only way you can be considered an NBA talent is if teams trade up to draft you?
People keep acting like its 15-20 years ago when if you declared and didn't get drafted, that your odds were really long ever making it to the Show. That is simply not the case any longer. The NBA has done a lot better with player development over the last decade. Dedicated G-League teams, two way contracts, expanded rosters, etc. all are ways that players can develop without being in college.
I would love to have Dawson back, but I doubt he is here next year.
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yes
Clearly my coffee hasn't kicked in. I saw that and read the abbreviation as "internal" 😂
Thanks
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This team is going to stink next year if Dawson leaves. Shaka hasn’t brought in any players better than him or DJ. People here dismissing Dawson as no big loss must know more than NBA people
Yes, it it. No, he hasn't. No, they don't.
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I was curious so here's what happened with each of the NCAA Freshman who were invited to the combine the last 2 years.
44 Total Invites.
31 Drafted
8 GLeague
5 Back to NCAA
2020 Pick #
Anthony Edwards 1
Cassius Stanley 54
Cole Anthony 15
Isaac Okoro 5
Isaiah Stewart 16
Jaden McDaniels 28
Jahmi'us Ramsey 43
James Wiseman 2
Josh Green 18
Kahlil Whitney Gleague
Kofi Cockburn NCAA
Nico Mannion 48
Onyeka Okongwu 6
Patrick Williams 4
Precious Achiuwa 20
Trendon Watford NCAA
Tyrell Terry 31
Tyrese Maxey 21
Vernon Carey 32
Zeke Nnaji 22
2019 Pick #
RJ Barrett 2
Charles Bassey NCAA
Bol Bol 44
Ignas Brazdeikis 47
Moses Brown Gleague 2way
Luguentz Dort Gleague 2way
Devon Dotson Gleague 2way
Darius Garland 5
Quentin Grimes NCAA
Jaxson Hayes 8
Tyler Herro 13
Jaylen Hoard Gleague 2way
Talen Horton Tucker 46
Keldon Johnson 29
Louis King Gleague 2way
Romeo Langford 14
Nassir Little 25
Kevin Porter Jr 30
Neemias Queta NCAA
Cam Reddish 10
Naz Reid Gleague 2way
Simi craptu Gleague
Coby White 7
Zion Williamson 1
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So the only way you can be considered an NBA talent is if teams trade up to draft you?
People keep acting like its 15-20 years ago when if you declared and didn't get drafted, that your odds were really long ever making it to the Show. That is simply not the case any longer. The NBA has done a lot better with player development over the last decade. Dedicated G-League teams, two way contracts, expanded rosters, etc. all are ways that players can develop without being in college.
I would love to have Dawson back, but I doubt he is here next year.
In the end he may be a player in the 71-100 range and will be told he won’t be drafted or picked for the elite developmental squad. One more year of college could change that tremendously.
But your right, there are many other ways to skin a cat these days with two way contracts and the normal g-league invites.
I’m still holding sliver of hope he returns and makes Shakas first year a little more smooth.
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Brother Shooter, I hope you're right on a lot of fronts. For us, obviously we're a much better team with Dawson than without him. We just are.
Secondly, playing for a real coach means real development. A year at Marquette should improve his draft status a year from now. Better draft status means more money.
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In the end he may be a player in the 71-100 range and will be told he won’t be drafted or picked for the elite developmental squad. One more year of college could change that tremendously.
But your right, there are many other ways to skin a cat these days with two way contracts and the normal g-league invites.
I’m still holding sliver of hope he returns and makes Shakas first year a little more smooth.
Yeah, I mean he COULD come back and develop in college if that is what he is advised to do. But I look at the list the genious expert just posted...and I am not confident.
I think once you expose yourself to the possibility, it is tough to go back.
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Yeah, I mean he COULD come back and develop in college if that is what he is advised to do. But I look at the list the genious expert just posted...and I am not confident.
I think once you expose yourself to the possibility, it is tough to go back.
Yeah, I didn’t see that list before I posted. My sliver of hope just got a lot smaller.
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Garcia is the second player today, along with Morsell, that some Scoopers are saying doesn't "move the needle" much. And now that I think about it, I believe some said the same about DJ when he decided to leave.
I guess the MU needle is so stubborn it's difficult to move it.
Garcia was a burger boy who led all BEast freshmen in scoring and rebounding despite playing under The Worst Coach In College Basketball History. LOTS of college athletes get a LOT better between their freshman and sophomore seasons.
I'd sure as hell like to see how he moves the needle for us this coming season.
And I'm not sure how it could be spun as anything but a bad loss for the program if he goes. The program will survive. It's bigger than one player. But him leaving would not be a good thing, so I'm sorry to hear what TAMU just said.
Well said. Our ceiling next year is drastically different depending on what Garcia does.
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Is there a list posted somewhere of invitees?
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Is there a list posted somewhere of invitees?
I think the invites just went out over the past day or two to the players chosen, but I don't think there's a comprehensive list (yet).
I did see that a Minneapolis sportscaster posted yesterday that Dawson is going to the combine (https://twitter.com/DWolfsonKSTP/status/1402325978215456772). However, I don't know if he has inside info of an actual invite, or if he was just making an assumption?
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I was curious so here's what happened with each of the NCAA Freshman who were invited to the combine the last 2 years.
44 Total Invites.
31 Drafted
8 GLeague
5 Back to NCAA
Well damn...you and your so-called "facts" and "recent historical data" just bummed me out.
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Well damn...you and your so-called "facts" and "recent historical data" just bummed me out.
Wondering what their rankings were on NBadraft.net etc before the draft, meaning were all of these freshman considered "locks" after the combine, or were many of them not likely to be drafted but were anyway.
Edit: Only 1 person from last year stayed in the draft that wasn't in NBAdraft.net's prediction. Khalil Whitney.
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This team is going to stink next year if Dawson leaves. Shaka hasn’t brought in any players better than him or DJ. People here dismissing Dawson as no big loss must know more than NBA people
Losing Dawson takes this team from top 80ish to a top 125ish. Still bad either way, but no Dawson removes all chances of a respectable season.
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Losing Dawson takes this team from top 80ish to a top 125ish. Still bad either way, but no Dawson removes all chances of a respectable season.
80ish and at least we may have an NIT to look at which I'd take over Wojo's first year.
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Well damn...you and your so-called "facts" and "recent historical data" just bummed me out.
Exactly! I was cautiously optimistic before I read this. Oh well. Next year will be rough. Still like the young guys and still optimistic for a few years from now.
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80ish and at least we may have an NIT to look at which I'd take over Wojo's first year.
Just not having Wojo makes us better, though - Dawson or no Dawson. I was also chagrined by the stats the genius posted, but still feel better than the last few years - now there is hope.
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Jonathan Givony
@DraftExpress
Every NBA team submitted votes for 70 players for the NBA Combine and G League Elite Camp today. Around 100 players will be invited after the tally count to participate in one of the two camps. With the Combine dates pushed back a month, expect quite a few int'l players to attend
https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1400903980969041923
There are 355 NBA Draft entrants so far and Garcia was one of 100 invited to the combine. 60 of those will get drafted.
I think it's pretty safe to say he's an NBA talent.
I don't get it. There are only 30 NBA teams. And most of them are already loaded with talent. There's not much room to take college drop outs.
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I don't get it. There are only 30 NBA teams. And most of them are already loaded with talent. There's not much room to take college drop outs.
#postsfrom1982
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Just not having Wojo makes us better, though - Dawson or no Dawson. I was also chagrined by the stats the genius posted, but still feel better than the last few years - now there is hope.
I’m here with my thinking as well.
The initial enthusiasm of his hire and apparently keeping the best players around has waned dramatically. The talent infusion looks familiar. The coaching should be better, we all think. Just going to be a lot of Arby’s in 2021-22
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I don't get it. There are only 30 NBA teams. And most of them are already loaded with talent. There's not much room to take college drop outs.
Having a college degree is pretty irrelevant when it comes to the NBA
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I agree, he is probably a top 70-100 kid,
But has a lot to work on, better to comeback and try and get Top 30 where the real money is to be had. To many weaknesses in his game but if he does not want to go to school I can see it? The bigger mistake might be Carton, was he in Top 100?
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If you thought you were a year away from being top 30 why wouldn't you go now, play against better competition in the G-League vs college, get paid, be able to focus on you game full time, and not have to deal with school? I don't know what's being said to DG, but I can certainly understand the reasons for leaving, even if he doesn't get drafted.
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Both Garcia and Carton are most likely going to spend the next season or two well off NBA radar. The question they have to ask is will they find places for development that exceed the program Shaka is putting together. Given that Shaka competes with NCAA time regulations and academic requirements, they might very well. There are a lot of ways to skin this cat and there are a number of situations better than college for development. The key is to get your self into one of those. It is easy to dismiss "college" but I would argue Shaka + Big East competition is a solid way to improve.
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If you thought you were a year away from being top 30 why wouldn't you go now, play against better competition in the G-League vs college, get paid, be able to focus on you game full time, and not have to deal with school? I don't know what's being said to DG, but I can certainly understand the reasons for leaving, even if he doesn't get drafted.
Theres a massive difference in being drafted in the first round, vs. second, or not even being drafted. Henry got set for life with a $5M contract. Now he is fumbling
around, but he should have $3M in the bank at 24 or so. Not bad.
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Both Garcia and Carton are most likely going to spend the next season or two well off NBA radar. The question they have to ask is will they find places for development that exceed the program Shaka is putting together. Given that Shaka competes with NCAA time regulations and academic requirements, they might very well. There are a lot of ways to skin this cat and there are a number of situations better than college for development. The key is to get your self into one of those. It is easy to dismiss "college" but I would argue Shaka + Big East competition is a solid way to improve.
Carton signed with an agent, so he has no return path to MU.
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Theres a massive difference in being drafted in the first round, vs. second, or not even being drafted. Henry got set for life with a $5M contract. Now he is fumbling
around, but he should have $3M in the bank at 24 or so. Not bad.
If you're truly a year away from being a top 30 prospect, it shouldn't matter. Look at Markus. I'm not saying that he'll end up being one of the best 30 in his class, but I would bet his undrafted, 2-way, bounce back and forth for the first year(s) career ends up earning more than just outside the lottery Henry over their respective careers.
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Carton signed with an agent, so he has no return path to MU.
I understand that, but he still had to decide, will I end up in a better spot than MU. It is possible but not guaranteed.
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I don't get it. There are only 30 NBA teams. And most of them are already loaded with talent. There's not much room to take college drop outs.
So you don't get that now besides NBA looking at him, European league teams will probably be looking at him? Potential salary probably at least 100k, and he can finish college whenever he wants too...
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Both Garcia and Carton are most likely going to spend the next season or two well off NBA radar. The question they have to ask is will they find places for development that exceed the program Shaka is putting together. Given that Shaka competes with NCAA time regulations and academic requirements, they might very well. There are a lot of ways to skin this cat and there are a number of situations better than college for development. The key is to get your self into one of those. It is easy to dismiss "college" but I would argue Shaka + Big East competition is a solid way to improve.
With G-League teams tied to specific NBA teams, I think they would have more exposure to the NBA than at MU. I think we sometimes think NBA scouts are just going off of what they see in ESPN.
Even if they are in Europe, they will be in radars. They were probably on nBA Scout radars on the AAU circuit.
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Hope Dawson performs well in the Combine. It is in MU's interest to put more players in the NBA.
There are a lot of quality prospects on the MU team that are eager to absorb some of Dawson's minutes.
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Wondering out loud how many players nowadays (past 5 years), go to Europe after college, then play in the NBA for a prolonged period. Seems to me (and I could be wrong), kids nowadays will go to Europe to make some coin, those that think they have a good shot at the NBA will go G league first.
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Wondering out loud how many players nowadays (past 5 years), go to Europe after college, then play in the NBA for a prolonged period. Seems to me (and I could be wrong), kids nowadays will go to Europe to make some coin, those that think they have a good shot at the NBA will go G league first.
Mostly because G-League teams are tied to specific NBA franchises.
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Mostly because G-League teams are tied to specific NBA franchises.
Right, I get that. I just question those that say Garcia will be going to Europe. I think its either NBA, G league, or back to school.
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Right, I get that. I just question those that say Garcia will be going to Europe. I think its either NBA, G league, or back to school.
Yup, certainly at this early point in his career.
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Wondering out loud how many players nowadays (past 5 years), go to Europe after college, then play in the NBA for a prolonged period. Seems to me (and I could be wrong), kids nowadays will go to Europe to make some coin, those that think they have a good shot at the NBA will go G league first.
Do European teams pay "set-for-life-after-a-few-years" money? I honestly have no idea.
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Do European teams pay "set-for-life-after-a-few-years" money? I honestly have no idea.
Not set for life money but a few pay more than I make with a masters and a job in stem at 30yrs old.
If I was good at basketball and had the option of 6 figures at 19yrs old vs a feel good story about having a degree so I could work at enterprise working crap hours for 10yrs of crap money while cheersing with old people at alumni feel good events... well I know which route id take.
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Right, I get that. I just question those that say Garcia will be going to Europe. I think its either NBA, G league, or back to school.
Not saying he will, but saying it will be a choice he will have.
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Wondering out loud how many players nowadays (past 5 years), go to Europe after college, then play in the NBA for a prolonged period. Seems to me (and I could be wrong), kids nowadays will go to Europe to make some coin, those that think they have a good shot at the NBA will go G league first.
Players who can not make the NBA , use the foreign leagues to make a living playing basketball. It is not an easy or preferred way to go. Also the majority of players overseas are not making big dollars and have a hard time finding work no matter how talented they are. Look at Dwight Buycks for an example, had some stints in the NBA but couldn't stick. Has bounced around many teams and leagues overseas , was most recently cut from his French league team. Another good example is Lazar . First round draft choice but couldn't stick in the league. Tried to hang on through G League but nothing happened, went overseas for a year , tried to find work in the upper tier leagues but could not find any and was not willing to go the lower tier route the Dominic James did. So now Lazar is out of basketball.
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Players who can not make the NBA , use the foreign leagues to make a living playing basketball. It is not an easy or preferred way to go. Also the majority of players overseas are not making big dollars and have a hard time finding work no matter how talented they are. Look at Dwight Buycks for an example, had some stints in the NBA but couldn't stick. Has bounced around many teams and leagues overseas , was most recently cut from his French league team. Another good example is Lazar . First round draft choice but couldn't stick in the league. Tried to hang on through G League but nothing happened, went overseas for a year , tried to find work in the upper tier leagues but could not find any and was not willing to go the lower tier route the Dominic James did. So now Lazar is out of basketball.
What's Lazar doing now? Couldn't find anything recent with some moderate googling.
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What's Lazar doing now? Couldn't find anything recent with some moderate googling.
On an interview with Homer he said he's doing real estate.
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Can't spell Garcia without G-O-W-N-E
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On an interview with Homer he said he's doing real estate.
Haunted houses?
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Haunted houses?
Nice.
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So you don't get that now besides NBA looking at him, European league teams will probably be looking at him? Potential salary probably at least 100k, and he can finish college whenever he wants too...
Sounds like the end of college ball.
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Sounds like the end of college ball.
Why?
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Haunted houses?
I've been watching House Hunters: Comedians on Couches on Discovery+.
There is an episode where this couple was looking for a house outside Boston and one of the guy's criteria was no ghosts. The whole episode he gave his thoughts on ghosts on the houses they were checking out and the comedians were loving it.
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I've been watching House Hunters: Comedians on Couches on Discovery+.
There is an episode where this couple was looking for a house outside Boston and one of the guy's criteria was no ghosts. The whole episode he gave his thoughts on ghosts on the houses they were checking out and the comedians were loving it.
I hope nobody booed.
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Can't spell Garcia without G-O-W-N-E
Actually you can. Pretty easily. Just gotta get that G.
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On an interview with Homer he said he's doing real estate.
It was on that same interview , when he said he was still trying to play but couldn't find a home to play that wasn't in a war torn country.
He also came clean on the ghosts.
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Why?
If so many kids want to skip college for the quick money and play ball in Timbuktu. That’s why. I’d only target kids that want a degree. Do you remember student athletes. College ball is a lot more fun to watch than the NBA and Timbuktu.
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If so many kids want to skip college for the quick money and play ball in Timbuktu. That’s why. I’d only target kids that want a degree. Do you remember student athletes. College ball is a lot more fun to watch than the NBA and Timbuktu.
Was Al McGuire wrong for steering Jim Chones to a professional career? I’m not sure there’s been a time in history college basketball has ever been about the student athlete. Big-time college basketball has always been about the university selling itself and making money. Reading John Gasaway’s book, “Miracles on the Hardwood”, really reinforces that notion. You want real student athletes? Ok. Get rid of all athletic scholarships
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If so many kids want to skip college for the quick money and play ball in Timbuktu. That’s why. I’d only target kids that want a degree. Do you remember student athletes. College ball is a lot more fun to watch than the NBA and Timbuktu.
LOL
So no Doc, no Wade among others. And plenty incredibly nice cities you can play at. Most of the guys in the early 80's team were not interested in a degree, that was obvious.
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Was Al McGuire wrong for steering Jim Chones to a professional career? I’m not sure there’s been a time in history college basketball has ever been about the student athlete. Big-time college basketball has always been about the university selling itself and making money. Reading John Gasaway’s book, “Miracles on the Hardwood”, really reinforces that notion. You want real student athletes? Ok. Get rid of all athletic scholarships
CBB will not go away. The new reality however is chipping away at the quality of the product. For better (for the athletes) or worse (fans of college basketball) cbb will become more watered down with lesser talent.
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CBB will not go away. The new reality however is chipping away at the quality of the product. For better (for the athletes) or worse (fans of college basketball) cbb will become more watered down with lesser talent.
This is fallacy. Kids have been leaving for decades. The game and sport is ever evolving. The problem with the product on the floor isn’t the players, it’s the coaching at all levels and the disorganization of sports as a whole in this country
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This is fallacy. Kids have been leaving for decades. The game and sport is ever evolving. The problem with the product on the floor isn’t the players, it’s the coaching at all levels and the disorganization of sports as a whole in this country
The more pro options there are for players, the lesser the talent level will be at the college level. Coaching or not. Disorganized or not.
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CBB will not go away. The new reality however is chipping away at the quality of the product. For better (for the athletes) or worse (fans of college basketball) cbb will become more watered down with lesser talent.
Coaching & player development will be at a premium, the great differentiator. Will be way harder to stack rosters with a bunch of guys that are head and shoulders above their peers. That makes it more interesting to me, not less, but I can see why it potentially wouldn't for the casual fan.
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This is fallacy. Kids have been leaving for decades. The game and sport is ever evolving. The problem with the product on the floor isn’t the players, it’s the coaching at all levels and the disorganization of sports as a whole in this country
I disagree with this completely. The lack of talent that sustains over multiple seasons is a big problem for college basketball and has been for awhile. But it seems like more and more fringe pro guys like Garcia are choosing that route to develop their game.
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MacClung, who has been in some mock drafts, was invited to something call the G League Elite combine. So I guess there is two levels of combine invites. I hope Dawson gets the actual NBA combine invite.
https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2021/06/07/mac-mcclung-invited-to-participate-in-nba-g-league-elite-camp/
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Was Al McGuire wrong for steering Jim Chones to a professional career? I’m not sure there’s been a time in history college basketball has ever been about the student athlete. Big-time college basketball has always been about the university selling itself and making money. Reading John Gasaway’s book, “Miracles on the Hardwood”, really reinforces that notion. You want real student athletes? Ok. Get rid of all athletic scholarships
Al had Chones play for 3 years before telling him to turn pro.
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MacClung, who has been in some mock drafts, was invited to something call the G League Elite combine. So I guess there is two levels of combine invites. I hope Dawson gets the actual NBA combine invite.
https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2021/06/07/mac-mcclung-invited-to-participate-in-nba-g-league-elite-camp/
The G League Elite combine will come first. Some of the top participants of the GLE combine will get invites to the NBA combine as well. By all reports, Dawson was invited to the NBA combine, not the GLE combine.
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If so many kids want to skip college for the quick money and play ball in Timbuktu. That’s why. I’d only target kids that want a degree. Do you remember student athletes. College ball is a lot more fun to watch than the NBA and Timbuktu.
But this has always been the case and CBB has thrived. So why is it suddenly going to end?
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Al had Chones play for 3 years before telling him to turn pro.
Nope. Chones left about 3/4ths of the way through his second season under Al -- because freshmen weren't allowed to play back then.
Marquette got a total of 50 games, and one NCAA tournament appearance, in Chones' 1 3/4 seasons.
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He's gone.
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Nope. Chones left about 3/4ths of the way through his second season under Al -- because freshmen weren't allowed to play back then.
Marquette got a total of 50 games, and one NCAA tournament appearance, in Chones' 1 3/4 seasons.
Let’s not kid ourselves, Al made a commission off Chones (and others). Al always took care of #1.
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Let’s not kid ourselves, Al made a commission off Chones (and others). Al never didn’t anything for himself.
Al was always out for himself, Childrens Hospital paid him for Al's Run, and to me, that was distasteful, charity event, really.
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Al was always out for himself, Childrens Hospital paid him for Al's Run, and to me, that was distasteful, charity event, really.
How is it distasteful if they asked, and he said yes. And it became wildly popular and productive as a result.
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Al looked out for No. 1 while also doing many altruistic things.
Which makes him, what ... human?
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Remember that was back in the day when coaches weren't making what they are now.
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Yes, I love revisionist history! Al was such a user and abuser. Did nothing but take advantage of everyone and everything he came in contact with. It is a wonder the people of Milwaukee and Marquette didn't just run him out if town. I heard he even picked his nose once...and in public!
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Coaching & player development will be at a premium, the great differentiator. Will be way harder to stack rosters with a bunch of guys that are head and shoulders above their peers. That makes it more interesting to me, not less, but I can see why it potentially wouldn't for the casual fan.
While college basketball will lose more exceptional players under this new cbb world order, I agree that it may result in a better game overall in the sense that, as you stated, coaching and player development will be at a premium vs. watching effectively semi pro college teams demolishing good competition. If Wojo had remained at Duke over the past 7 years, he would probably now be K's designated successor. In a nutshell, that's a perfect example of what is wrong with cbb. The Blue Bloods will be the biggest losers in all this. Works for me.
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Yes, I love revisionist history! Al was such a user and abuser. Did nothing but take advantage of everyone and everything he came in contact with. It is a wonder the people of Milwaukee and Marquette didn't just run him out if town. I heard he even picked his nose once...and in public!
Or maybe he was human like the rest of us.
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While college basketball will lose more exceptional players under this new cbb world order, I agree that it may result in a better game overall in the sense that, as you stated, coaching and player development will be at a premium vs. watching effectively semi pro college teams demolishing good competition. If Wojo had remained at Duke over the past 7 years, he would probably now be K's designated successor. In a nutshell, that's a perfect example of what is wrong with cbb. The Blue Bloods will be the biggest losers in all this. Works for me.
I think we are already seeing teams who have invested in player development, and who have taken a transfer or two at the right time, playing better than the one-and-done era teams. Baylor....UVa....Nova all fit that mold. So on the one hand, I think that's good for college basketball.
That being said, I think college basketball has definitely been hurt by top talent leaving early. Not only are they leaving earlier, but they are leaving in larger numbers. And yes while that does put a premium on development, talent is talent. And invariably it has hurt the game having less of it on the floor. A generation ago, a player like Dawson Garcia would have stuck around three years. He would have grown and started to dominate in certain phases of the game. But also back then it was an NBA bench, a crappy developmental league or Europe. Now there are better options for players who don't make an NBA bench immediately. The NBA has invested in development - and it has worked!
Put it this way, the divide between the NBA and the college game has never been greater.
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Yes, I love revisionist history! Al was such a user and abuser. Did nothing but take advantage of everyone and everything he came in contact with. It is a wonder the people of Milwaukee and Marquette didn't just run him out if town. I heard he even picked his nose once...and in public!
No revisionist history at all. Al most certainly looked out for kids. I add that note more to remind people, we weren't ever perfect so let's stop trying to be perfect.
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On one hand, we cheer kids on with "don't listen to the critics," "believe in yourself," and rightly celebrate athletes who overcome long odds or doubters.
We celebrate pro athletes who look back on "draft experts" talking points explaining why they won't succeed or shouldn't be drafted at all.
Then on the other hand, we also tell them to listen to their critics, and ask them not to believe they can succeed at the pro level just yet. "Come back to school for one more year."
Which is it?
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Or maybe he was human like the rest of us.
This.
I doubt anyone on this board holds Al McGuire in higher esteem than me. He was intuitively brilliant, larger than life and could command a room like no one I’ve ever known. And he was a very good man. But he played the angles and always had one. To take a school like Marquette on the run he did he had to. He would be the first to tell you that he wasn’t a saint, but every player that I know of thought they benefited from experiencing Al. And he won games at an outrageous clip. That’s an epitaph any coach should be proud of.
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This.
I doubt anyone on this board holds Al McGuire in higher esteem than me. He was intuitively brilliant, larger than life and could command a room like no one I’ve ever known. And he was a very good man. But he played the angles and always had one. To take a school like Marquette on the run he did he had to. He would be the first to tell you that he wasn’t a saint, but every player that I know of thought they benefited from experiencing Al. And he won games at an outrageous clip. That’s an epitaph any coach should be proud of.
I do! Not even close.
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That being said, I think college basketball has definitely been hurt by top talent leaving early. Not only are they leaving earlier, but they are leaving in larger numbers. And yes while that does put a premium on development, talent is talent. And invariably it has hurt the game having less of it on the floor. A generation ago, a player like Dawson Garcia would have stuck around three years. He would have grown and started to dominate in certain phases of the game. But also back then it was an NBA bench, a crappy developmental league or Europe. Now there are better options for players who don't make an NBA bench immediately. The NBA has invested in development - and it has worked!
Put it this way, the divide between the NBA and the college game has never been greater.
+1. Adam Silver (and whoever is advising him on this) deserve a lot of credit here. The NBA did a great job surveying the evolution of straight from high school, to one and done, to kids starting to play overseas for a year. They established a way to integrate the best young talent immediattely without relying on the CBK system and without burdening their teams by tossing unprepared high school kids on NBA rosters.
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+1. Adam Silver (and whoever is advising him on this) deserve a lot of credit here. The NBA did a great job surveying the evolution of straight from high school, to one and done, to kids starting to play overseas for a year. They established a way to integrate the best young talent immediattely without relying on the CBK system and without burdening their teams by tossing unprepared high school kids on NBA rosters.
Pretty sure that was one of the stated goals Silver had when he took over the NBA, he wanted to develop a farm system akin to Hockey & Baseball and get away from the NFL route where it's basically college or nothing.
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This.
I doubt anyone on this board holds Al McGuire in higher esteem than me. He was intuitively brilliant, larger than life and could command a room like no one I’ve ever known. And he was a very good man. But he played the angles and always had one. To take a school like Marquette on the run he did he had to. He would be the first to tell you that he wasn’t a saint, but every player that I know of thought they benefited from experiencing Al. And he won games at an outrageous clip. That’s an epitaph any coach should be proud of.
Agree wholeheartedly.
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+1. Adam Silver (and whoever is advising him on this) deserve a lot of credit here. The NBA did a great job surveying the evolution of straight from high school, to one and done, to kids starting to play overseas for a year. They established a way to integrate the best young talent immediattely without relying on the CBK system and without burdening their teams by tossing unprepared high school kids on NBA rosters.
The G League Ignite didn't start until after LaMelo Ball and others went to Australia. The Australian National Basketball League came up with the idea for a developmental bridge year for prospects that wanted to turn pro instead of go to college.
The NBA teams didn't like the logistical challenges of international scouting, so the NBA responded with their own program.
College basketball is going to be more like college baseball, where the best prospects are split between college and professional minor leagues. Overall, quality of play will continue to go down but parity will probably become even more prevalent.
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Nope. Chones left about 3/4ths of the way through his second season under Al -- because freshmen weren't allowed to play back then.
Marquette got a total of 50 games, and one NCAA tournament appearance, in Chones' 1 3/4 seasons.
Only lost 1 game throughout #22's career, Nads, hey?
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I think we are already seeing teams who have invested in player development, and who have taken a transfer or two at the right time, playing better than the one-and-done era teams. Baylor....UVa....Nova all fit that mold. So on the one hand, I think that's good for college basketball.
That being said, I think college basketball has definitely been hurt by top talent leaving early. Not only are they leaving earlier, but they are leaving in larger numbers. And yes while that does put a premium on development, talent is talent. And invariably it has hurt the game having less of it on the floor. A generation ago, a player like Dawson Garcia would have stuck around three years. He would have grown and started to dominate in certain phases of the game. But also back then it was an NBA bench, a crappy developmental league or Europe. Now there are better options for players who don't make an NBA bench immediately. The NBA has invested in development - and it has worked!
Put it this way, the divide between the NBA and the college game has never been greater.
More teams, more roster spots, makes it easier for guys like Garcia to get signed. In a way NBA bench talent gets diluted.
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Only lost 1 game throughout #22's career, Nads, hey?
Great player. Amazing career. I neither said nor suggested anything different, nu?
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I think this deserves a poll:
Garcia will within the next two months:
1. Become a Professional BB player.
2. Transfer to another university.
3. Remain a Golden Eagle.
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Marquette got a total of 50 games, and one NCAA tournament appearance, in Chones' 1 3/4 seasons.
Mike
Think MU got 51 games out of Jimmy - and won 50 of ‘em.
No other MU player can come even remotely close to that winning %.
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I think this deserves a poll:
Garcia will within the next two months:
1. Become a Professional BB player.
2. Transfer to another university.
3. Remain a Golden Eagle.
I definitely think he goes pro, think he could also come back to MU, but think there is almost a 0% chance he transfers elsewhere. It just doesn't make sense
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I think this deserves a poll:
Garcia will within the next two months:
1. Become a Professional BB player.
2. Transfer to another university.
3. Remain a Golden Eagle.
I think you have those in the right order
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I think you have those in the right order
If that's the right order, the time period of two months is not right. He has 20 days to enter the NCAA transfer portal.
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Mike
Think MU got 51 games out of Jimmy - and won 50 of ‘em.
No other MU player can come even remotely close to that winning %.
After listening to most of the folks here the last 7 years March winning %>>>>>>> total winning %. Not blaming Chones or Al, take the $$$ and run, but as far as meaningless stats go, this is up there.
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I definitely think he goes pro, think he could also come back to MU, but think there is almost a 0% chance he transfers elsewhere. It just doesn't make sense
What does not make sense to me is Garcia coming back to MU. Assuming he decides not to go pro, it would make more sense for him to play on a team that will make the NCAA tournament.
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After listening to most of the folks here the last 7 years March winning %>>>>>>> total winning %. Not blaming Chones or Al, take the $$$ and run, but as far as meaningless stats go, this is up there.
Chines lost one game in his career and that one was stolen by the refs. But if you think 50-1 that deserved to be 51-0 is meaningless, OK.
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Chines lost one game in his career and that one was stolen by the refs. But if you think 50-1 that deserved to be 51-0 is meaningless, OK.
No, I think wining percentage, which you brought up
No other MU player can come even remotely close to that winning %.
is stupid. Chones has the resume as an all time great without fluff stats like this. Throwing useless stats on a resume reduces the quality of the resume as a whole.
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Mike
Think MU got 51 games out of Jimmy - and won 50 of ‘em.
No other MU player can come even remotely close to that winning %.
As I told Doc Dribble:
Great player. Amazing career. I neither said nor suggested anything different, nu?
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98.03% = winner, aina?
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Chones never made a Final 4. He’s not even in my top 50 Marquette players of all-time.
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98.03% = winner, aina?
Absolutely, Doc, I think so. Great player, amazing career.
I wonder if those who measure everything by tournament success think so, nu?
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Absolutely, Doc, I think so. Great player, amazing career.
I wonder if those who measure everything by tournament success think so, nu?
Kentucky ran that Chones team off the floor. Totally non-competitive game. Sad
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Chones never made a Final 4. He’s not even in my top 50 Marquette players of all-time.
UncleR, thats ridiculous. Maybe not something to be admitted.
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UncleR, thats ridiculous. Maybe not something to be admitted.
It’s about winning in March
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It never ceases to amaze me how this place needs teal like it needs oxygen.
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It never ceases to amaze me how this place needs teal like it needs oxygen.
I speak fluent Uncle Rico
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It’s about winning in March
Only uncle would not have Chinese in an MU top 50. But he would include the biggest sleeper since Rip Van Winkle in it.
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Chones never made a Final 4. He’s not even in my top 50 Marquette players of all-time.
March Ws make Jared Sichting a lock for the top 50 tho
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March Ws make Jared Sichting a lock for the top 50 tho
He’s probably just on the outside looking in. Not playing for Al is a strike against him
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No, I think wining percentage, which you brought up
is stupid. Chones has the resume as an all time great without fluff stats like this. Throwing useless stats on a resume reduces the quality of the resume as a whole.
This may be the dumbest post in Scoop history. Congratulations DJO, you beat out some very strong competition.
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This may be the dumbest post in Scoop history. Congratulations DJO, you beat out some very strong competition.
Dylan Flood has a higher win % than Chones. Your criteria is ridiculous.
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Dylan Flood has a higher win % than Chones. Your criteria is ridiculous.
Was Dylan Flood the star of those teams? MU was 22-0 when Chones left in ‘72 and finished 25-4. So is their record with him relevant? Yes. So is Indiana State’s with Larry Bird, though I’m sure you’d disagree. Sheesh.
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Was Dylan Flood the star of those teams? MU was 22-0 when Chones left in ‘72 and finished 25-4. So is their record with him relevant? Yes. So is Indiana State’s with Larry Bird, though I’m sure you’d disagree. Sheesh.
Individual win% on a team sport is an inherently flawed metric. There are literally too many examples to list of both good/great players that were on poor/incomplete teams, as well as poor/incomplete players on good teams. The fact that Dylan Flood is tied for first in win % supports this. Any metric that has Reggie Smith or Yous Mbao ahead of Markus is flawed.
Again, Chones resume is more than adequate without useless filler stats like this.
It'd be like going into a job interview now, and having accolades from high school on your resume. Technically correct, but no one (other than ners) uses them.
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Individual win% on a team sport is an inherently flawed metric. There are literally too many examples to list of both good/great players that were on poor/incomplete teams, as well as poor/incomplete players on good teams. The fact that Dylan Flood is tied for first in win % supports this. Any metric that has Reggie Smith or Yous Mbao ahead of Markus is flawed.
Again, Chones resume is more than adequate without useless filler stats like this.
It'd be like going into a job interview now, and having accolades from high school on your resume. Technically correct, but no one (other than ners) uses them.
...I may have to edit my resume
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It never ceases to amaze me how this place needs teal like it needs oxygen.
Actually, we've been providing an oxygen free forum since 2006. Which explains a lot!
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While looking for a list of the 100 or so invitees to the NBA combine, I saw this:
On Monday, the NBA announced 353 players filed as early entry draft candidates.
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While looking for a list of the 100 or so invitees to the NBA combine, I saw this:
On Monday, the NBA announced 353 players filed as early entry draft candidates.
And the vast majority will return to school.
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And the vast majority will return to school.
I agree. This is one reason why I think Garcia will be back.
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While looking for a list of the 100 or so invitees to the NBA combine, I saw this:
On Monday, the NBA announced 353 players filed as early entry draft candidates.
I thought a tweet by Giovny clarified that number included seniors. The terminology made it seem like all underclassmen when it wasn’t.
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I agree. This is one reason why I think Garcia will be back.
But as was posted earlier (and backed up with data), guys who enter the draft after their Freshman year almost never return to school. And if it's indeed true that Dawson is one of the 100 or so combine invites, I have to imagine the odds of his return are even smaller. On top of that, he can now transfer with immediate eligibility, so while he might hypothetically return to college ball next year, it could be somewhere other than MU.
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Having seen the Jim Chones team a couple of times, I'm hesitant to wade too deep into this one. We had the makings of a team that was truly great and, had Mr. Chones stayed for four years, I am fairly confident there would have been at least two more Nattys hanging in the Computing Castle.
In 1971-1972 we were undefeated with Chones in our line-up. There would have been a fairly good chance we would have blown through the rest of our schedule undefeated, setting up a showdown with the Bill Walton UCLA team in the NCAA. With Chones gone and the bigoted NCAA chasing Marquette anyway it could (thank you Adolph Rupp), our team was in disarray. To bring us in with only four losses for the year suggests Al did one heck of a coaching job.
Had Mr. Chones stayed, our starting front line in 1972-1973 would have been Mr. Chones, Maurice Lucas and Larry McNeill. An extremely powerful front line to go with Marcus Washington and Allie McGuire. WOW! That was a team. But, it never was and we lost in Nashville to a then very young Bobby Knight and his Indiana Hoosiers.
Aaah, what could have been.
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I read the data differently. Last year for example, there was only one freshman invitee who stayed in the draft that wasn't on NBAdraft.net's mock draft. Garcia is not on that list. I think unless he makes a big impact at the combine, he will be back.
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Individual win% on a team sport is an inherently flawed metric. There are literally too many examples to list of both good/great players that were on poor/incomplete teams, as well as poor/incomplete players on good teams. The fact that Dylan Flood is tied for first in win % supports this. Any metric that has Reggie Smith or Yous Mbao ahead of Markus is flawed.
Again, Chones resume is more than adequate without useless filler stats like this.
It'd be like going into a job interview now, and having accolades from high school on your resume. Technically correct, but no one (other than ners) uses them.
If you think Larry Bird leading Indiana St to 31 straight wins is a “useless filler” stat and that saying the last guy on the bench of that team did the same thing is an honest argument....well, I just leave it at I disagree. Strongly.
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If you think Larry Bird leading Indiana St to 31 straight wins is a “useless filler” stat and that saying the last guy on the bench of that team did the same thing is an honest argument....well, I just leave it at I disagree. Strongly.
Goalpost shift, consecutive wins, and winning % (your original argument) are two different things.
Larry, and the last guy off the bench have the same winning % (your metric). Winning % is a terrible metric for judging individual success or talent. No one is saying that Chones isn't great, he unquestionably is, but by only bringing up winning % in games he played in (again, your metric), all your doing is saying that he played on great teams. There is plenty of substance you can use to say that Chones was a great individual player, without bringing up meaningless stats. The fact that you're trying to pad his resume with meaningless stats kind of takes away from the actual substance.
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Someone mentioned Kentucky blasted MU in the Chones days. Please fact check yourself. Chones left in February when MU was 20-0. That was an NCAA tourney game.He was long gone.
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Warriors kicked Kentucky's ass in Athens, GA at the Mideast Regional in 1971 which set up MU vs tOSU, aka the only time Dean fouled out in high school or college. Hence, #22's only loss. Marquette was undefeated the next year when Jimmy turned pro in Feb. the day after beating Jacksonville at the Mecca, hey?
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Warriors kicked Kentucky's ass in Athens, GA at the Mideast Regional in 1971 which set up MU vs tOSU, aka the only time Dean fouled out in high school or college. Hence, #22's only loss. Marquette was undefeated the next year when Jimmy turned pro in Feb. the day after beating Jacksonville at the Mecca, hey?
Marquette vs Kentucky was the third place game, after Ohio State.
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Someone mentioned Kentucky blasted MU in the Chones days. Please fact check yourself. Chones left in February when MU was 20-0. That was an NCAA tourney game.He was long gone.
No Final 4’s. Sad
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Marquette vs Kentucky was the third place game, after Ohio State.
I stand erected, hey?
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No Final 4’s. Sad
He could only possibly have been in one. Not appreciating what he did here is what's sad.
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Rico is taking a whole lot of people for a ride on the teal train
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Rico is taking a whole lot of people for a ride on the teal train
I simply can’t keep straight how we measure players here at Scoop. At least he never wrote a letter before quitting or maybe that would have been better?
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Rico is taking a whole lot of people for a ride on the teal train
Choo choo
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/azfamily.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/a6/5a6e0432-394b-11e9-9792-a7b4dd815271/5c7469f83c743.image.jpg?resize=800%2C500)
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Goalpost shift, consecutive wins, and winning % (your original argument) are two different things.
Larry, and the last guy off the bench have the same winning % (your metric). Winning % is a terrible metric for judging individual success or talent. No one is saying that Chones isn't great, he unquestionably is, but by only bringing up winning % in games he played in (again, your metric), all your doing is saying that he played on great teams. There is plenty of substance you can use to say that Chones was a great individual player, without bringing up meaningless stats. The fact that you're trying to pad his resume with meaningless stats kind of takes away from the actual substance.
Goal post shift? So consecutive games won count but not winning %? Well, in Jim’s 50-1 record there’s a 28 game winning streak and a 22 game winning streak that only stopped because he left. I never said being the star of two teams that went a combined 50-1 was the ONLY measure of how great a player he was. But to opine that leading two teams to a combined 50-1 record that had to necessarily (this is math) include either 2 long winning streaks or 1 gargantuan one is meaningless is just being stubborn - and dense.
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I think dawson is gonna be a train conductor
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Goal post shift? So consecutive games won count but not winning %? Well, in Jim’s 50-1 record there’s a 28 game winning streak and a 22 game winning streak that only stopped because he left. I never said being the star of two teams that went a combined 50-1 was the ONLY measure of how great a player he was. But to opine that leading two teams to a combined 50-1 record that had to necessarily (this is math) include either 2 long winning streaks or 1 gargantuan one is meaningless is just being stubborn - and dense.
Man, you just don’t get it. Winning % is a team stat and should be used to justify team accomplishments. The team won a lot when Chones was here, Chones was a part of that, but he was only part of the team winning, individuals do not win games by themselves. Use team stats to emphasize how good a team was, use individual stats to emphasize how good an individual was.
Using team stats to emphasize how good an individual was can be incredibly misleading. For example, in 2017-18 we had the third best team three-point shooting percentage in the country. Harry Froling was a part of that team, so Harry Froling can say that he was part of the third best three-point shooting team in the country, and that would be 100% true. By only looking at a team stat to justify an individual’s skill/accomplishments, you would come to the conclusion that Froling is a good three-point shooter, however, when you look at individual stats, you would see that is not the case.
Only looking at team winning % during a player’s tenure can be just as misleading as only looking at team three-point percentage (this is why we look for further context when we see Dylan Flood at the top of the winning % list). Chones was a great player and has a great individual stats to back that up (averaging a double-double both years). Bogging his resume down with stats that can be misleading is a disservice to both his skills and his legacy.
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Man, you just don’t get it. Winning % is a team stat and should be used to justify team accomplishments. The team won a lot when Chones was here, Chones was a part of that, but he was only part of the team winning, individuals do not win games by themselves. Use team stats to emphasize how good a team was, use individual stats to emphasize how good an individual was.
Using team stats to emphasize how good an individual was can be incredibly misleading. For example, in 2017-18 we had the third best team three-point shooting percentage in the country. Harry Froling was a part of that team, so Harry Froling can say that he was part of the third best three-point shooting team in the country, and that would be 100% true. By only looking at a team stat to justify an individual’s skill/accomplishments, you would come to the conclusion that Froling is a good three-point shooter, however, when you look at individual stats, you would see that is not the case.
Only looking at team winning % during a player’s tenure can be just as misleading as only looking at team three-point percentage (this is why we look for further context when we see Dylan Flood at the top of the winning % list). Chones was a great player and has a great individual stats to back that up (averaging a double-double both years). Bogging his resume down with stats that can be misleading is a disservice to both his skills and his legacy.
Really get your point. But, MU went 4-4 the rest of that season after Jim left. He was a HUGE part of those #s.
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Really get your point. But, MU went 4-4 the rest of that season after Jim left. He was a HUGE part of those #s.
Actually MU went 3-4 after Jim left. So our winning % WITH Jim was .980. WITHOUT him, .428. In his two seasons we lost 4 times as many games without him as we did with him - in more than 7 times fewer games. But according to DJO that’s all just a meaningless coincidence. Sure.
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Really get your point. But, MU went 4-4 the rest of that season after Jim left. He was a HUGE part of those #s.
Absolutely agree, he was a huge part of the team, but I think again, more context is needed than just a record without him. I think a similar (although not identical) situation is the end of the 08-09 season. After Dom got hurt, we went 2-6 to close the season (23-4 before his injury). That team still had Wes, Jerel, Zar and Jimmy. It was still a talented team, but losing an important player clearly hurt significantly more than just the points and assists (or board in Chones case). 72 still had a ton of talent, and if they had more time, I'm confident that they would have figured it out, but that's just the way sports go.
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Actually MU went 3-4 after Jim left. So our winning % WITH Jim was .980. WITHOUT him, .428. In his two seasons we lost 4 times as many games without him as we did with him - in more than 7 times fewer games. But according to DJO that’s all just a meaningless coincidence. Sure.
See my above post. In 08-09 we lost more games without Dom than with him (.851 win percentage down to .25). Dom was clearly on the same level as Chones.
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The only game Chones lost was McGuire's fault. He got out coached by Ohio St.'s coach, who scouted MU. He placed his defender where Meminger was catching the ball on the inbounds pass resulting in Meminger getting three offensive fouls. This was the only game in Meminger's career that he fouled out of. McGuire failed to make a game change once Ohio St. was setting up to take the charge. For those of you that were not born yet, Meminger would take the inbounds pass near the sideline and turn and race up court. Ohio St. placed a defender, so that when Meminger turned to run up the court would run into the Ohio St. defender. The NCAA changed the rule during the off season to require a defender to give a step for the offensive player receiving the pass. In today's game Meminger would not be called for a charge, because of this rule change. Even with that MU had a three point lead with the ball with about 2 minutes to go. There was no shot clock, so there was no reason to shoot. Jim Chones took two 5ft jump turnaround shots and missed both and Ohio St. scored after both misses. Had Meminger not fouled out, I am sure McGuire would of just let him dribble the ball until he was fouled. Meminger was the best ball handler that ever played for MU. Even with Meminger out we should of been holding the ball.
Two year's before that we lost to Purdue in overtime for a chance to go to final four. MU had the ball and called a timeout. McGuire worried that it would be too much pressure for a sophomore to handle the ball in that situation had Thompson bring the ball up court instead of Meminger. Thompson had the ball stolen and we lost on a buzzer beater by Rick Mount. As great as Al was he did make bad decisions including getting two technicals against NC St. in the 1974 championship game.
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See my above post. In 08-09 we lost more games without Dom than with him (.851 win percentage down to .25). Dom was clearly on the same level as Chones.
Dom was very important, but he was not on the same level as Chones.
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In 09 they played after/ during Dom’s injury:
Uconn 1 seed
Louisville 1 seed
Pitt 1 seed
Syracuse 3 seed, BET champs
Nova 3 seed, F4
Schedule had something to do with those 6 losses.
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Dom was very important, but he was not on the same level as Chones.
Exactly, more context is needed than just win/loss. If the program completely fell apart in 72-73, I think Chones would be seen even higher than he already is, but 4/5 key players in 73 were around in 72 and we went 21-3. McNeill, McGuire, Frazier, and Washington were all left over from 72, and they showed that while Chones was a large part of the success that year, those 4 could still win quite a bit without him. Sure adding Luke helped too, but it's not like 72 was Chones + the scrubs, there were 2 future NBAers in there as well.
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In 09 they played after/ during Dom’s injury:
Uconn 1 seed
Louisville 1 seed
Pitt 1 seed
Syracuse 3 seed, BET champs
Nova 3 seed, F4
Schedule had something to do with those 6 losses.
We were also ranked 8th in the country when Dom went down. I would wager that we would have been favored in 5 of 8 remaining games had he been 100%
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In 09 they played after/ during Dom’s injury:
Uconn 1 seed
Louisville 1 seed
Pitt 1 seed
Syracuse 3 seed, BET champs
Nova 3 seed, F4
Schedule had something to do with those 6 losses.
You're right but can't gauge that retroactively. If we had James and won then maybe the seeds aren't as they are and we're >6
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We were also ranked 8th in the country when Dom went down. I would wager that we would have been favored in 5 of 8 remaining games had he been 100%
We were a underdog in the UCONN game at the Bradley Center in the game he got hurt. At Pitt and at Louisville no way we’re favored Dom or no Dom. Home against Syracuse = likely a small (2 point?) favorite. Favorite in the 2 games we actually won (St John’s and Utah St), probably a pick ‘em vs Villanova and Missouri with Dom.
The only games we would have been a solid favorite were the 2 we actually won.
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So ... who had more "impact" in his two seasons at Marquette, Chones or Wade?
Chones definitely had the better winning percentage, but Wade might have had an accomplishment or two as well.
My answer would be that both were tremendous players but Wade ended up having the more meaningful results, including a dominant performance in the game that got Marquette to only the third Final Four in school history. Others are free to disagree, though.
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We were a underdog in the UCONN game at the Bradley Center in the game he got hurt. At Pitt and at Louisville no way we’re favored Dom or no Dom. Home against Syracuse = likely a small (2 point?) favorite. Favorite in the 2 games we actually won (St John’s and Utah St), probably a pick ‘em vs Villanova and Missouri with Dom.
The only games we would have been a solid favorite were the 2 we actually won.
Agree, think we'd have been dogs against UCONN, Pitt, and 'Ville regardless (although I do think a healthy Dom could have been enough to swing the 4 point loss against 'Ville). Think he would have made the difference against Cuse, Nova and Missou as well, although we'll never know.
Point is, losing Dom hurt more than just the stats he provided. Team had to learn to play differently with him out, same way the team had to learn to play without a key player in '72. The more time they would have had to figure it out, the more confident I'd be about their chances in the tourney. Unfortunately, losing that key player happened late in the season.
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Can we talk about that UConn game for a minute?
We’re top 10 in the country, Buzz has a huge profile piece in the New York Times and UConn was in town. Damn that was fun. I miss that crap.
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Can we talk about that UConn game for a minute?
We’re top 10 in the country, Buzz has a huge profile piece in the New York Times and UConn was in town. Damn that was fun. I miss that crap.
Those were fun times, they will be coming back soon.
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The '09 team was ready to conpete vs. the big boy teams that year. I remember the excitement and anticipation because MU was finally on a level to be a serious contender and would be severely tested the rest of the season. It was exciting and as a lifelong fan who was too young to remember the Al years, I was elated. It was going to be tough and fun. Win or lose MU was ready.
The instant Dom pulled himself out of the game it was like, "Damn, gone." Not that MU was now a bad team. They were just no longer (in my perception) at the elite level. All the work of the previous 3 years of building was gone. The moment was passed.
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The '09 team was ready to conpete vs. the big boy teams that year. I remember the excitement and anticipation because MU was finally on a level to be a serious contender and would be severely tested the rest of the season. It was exciting and as a lifelong fan who was too young to remember the Al years, I was elated. It was going to be tough and fun. Win or lose MU was ready.
The instant Dom pulled himself out of the game it was like, "Damn, gone." Not that MU was now a bad team. They were just no longer (in my perception) at the elite level. All the work of the previous 3 years of building was gone. The moment was passed.
The most depressed I have ever been at an MU basketball game. That '09 team was in prime position to make a deep run in the tournament. Man....that team was fun to watch. What a terrible blow to Dom and MI hoops. The standing O Dom got on Sr. Day, coming out on the floor with his crutches, still gives me chills.
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The most depressed I have ever been at an MU basketball game. That '09 team was in prime position to make a deep run in the tournament. Man....that team was fun to watch. What a terrible blow to Dom and MI hoops. The standing O Dom got on Sr. Day, coming out on the floor with his crutches, still gives me chills.
Here is a great article on Dom from last year
https://bvmsports.com/2020/07/01/dominic-james-wright-and-family-make-it-back-to-the-u-s/
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The only game Chones lost was McGuire's fault. He got out coached by Ohio St.'s coach, who scouted MU. He placed his defender where Meminger was catching the ball on the inbounds pass resulting in Meminger getting three offensive fouls. This was the only game in Meminger's career that he fouled out of. McGuire failed to make a game change once Ohio St. was setting up to take the charge. For those of you that were not born yet, Meminger would take the inbounds pass near the sideline and turn and race up court. Ohio St. placed a defender, so that when Meminger turned to run up the court would run into the Ohio St. defender. The NCAA changed the rule during the off season to require a defender to give a step for the offensive player receiving the pass. In today's game Meminger would not be called for a charge, because of this rule change. Even with that MU had a three point lead with the ball with about 2 minutes to go. There was no shot clock, so there was no reason to shoot. Jim Chones took two 5ft jump turnaround shots and missed both and Ohio St. scored after both misses. Had Meminger not fouled out, I am sure McGuire would of just let him dribble the ball until he was fouled. Meminger was the best ball handler that ever played for MU. Even with Meminger out we should of been holding the ball.
Two year's before that we lost to Purdue in overtime for a chance to go to final four. MU had the ball and called a timeout. McGuire worried that it would be too much pressure for a sophomore to handle the ball in that situation had Thompson bring the ball up court instead of Meminger. Thompson had the ball stolen and we lost on a buzzer beater by Rick Mount. As great as Al was he did make bad decisions including getting two technicals against NC St. in the 1974 championship game.
Meminger was a great ball handler, but two just as great or mayne greater were Dick Nixon who played in late 50s or early 60s and Sam Worthen. As well as Tony Miller
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The most depressed I have ever been at an MU basketball game. That '09 team was in prime position to make a deep run in the tournament. Man....that team was fun to watch. What a terrible blow to Dom and MI hoops. The standing O Dom got on Sr. Day, coming out on the floor with his crutches, still gives me chills.
The biggest what if of my Marquette fandom. Even without James we had second half leads in 5 of the 6 losses (UConn, Pitt, Cuse, Nova, Mizzou) and were within a basket of Louisville with under a minute to play. We plausibly could've won all four of the regular season games, and considering 3/4 losses were to teams that earned 1-seeds, winning 2-3 would've likely put us in the 1-seed discussion with a better Big East tourney path and easier route to a second or even third weekend. Everything changed when Dom went down.
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So, what's the word on Garcia?
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So, what's the word on Garcia?
Broke his foot running to the NBA after beating Jacksonville at the MECCA.
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Broke his foot running to the NBA after beating Jacksonville at the MECCA.
Was seen at Jimmy Johns wearing a boot.
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Thanks bilsu for your excellent recognition of the 1971 and 1969 games. They not only serve as recollections from memory lane, but emphasize that there was a time that MU was not only trying for New Big East titles, but for the national championship. I don't think posters who are old enough to remember those games live in the past, but rather hope that MU now can get back to the point that MU is in the national conversation. (Villanova's recent 2 national championships seems to say that a small private school can still do it now.)
I recollect the same things about the 1971 Ohio State game, but a couple of the calls against Dean seemed to be highly questionable under even the rules in effect then. One in particular comes to mind (maybe the third of Dean's five fouls?) which perhaps best can be described as the present day equivalent of a block/charge call. By that stage of the game it was obvious that Ohio State was trying to draw fouls on Dean, but their defender was out of position or otherwise late and flew over to a position to try to draw the charge. It seemed, however, that the defender actually hurried over and ran into Dean before he even had a chance to turn to go up court. It may venture into conspiracy theory territory, but the referees for that game were from UCLA's PAC 8 (now PAC 10). Maybe they were giving Ohio State's tactics a little help on behalf of their conference. Al was instrumental in bringing truly neutral officials to road games in that era; and he had discontinued a home and home series with Villanova because the "home cooking" in Philadelphia was over the top. An article by retired refs of that era went so far as to admit that bias for the home team was a real thing (after all, the many independents of that era were picked and paid for by the home team).
Everyone recalls or has been told of Mount's winning shot in that 1969 game, but I'm glad bilsu brought up the previous play where George Thompson was left alone to try to bring up the ball. I was at the old Wisconsin Fieldhouse for that game and remember vividly being panicked and confused as Dean jogged up the sideline leaving Thompson alone. George was an ABA pro player in his own right, but at that stage of his career Thompson wouldn't be called a good ballhandler. As it was, Herm Gilliam (who also went on to play pro) was guarding Thompson one on one. My memory's eye seems to recall George taking one last glance at the back of Dean's head, then going into an elaborate but useless body fake while dribbling the ball away from his body on the right side. Herm (a good athlete himself) simply closed on Thompson, flicked the ball away, and went in for a lay up. As Dean was without a doubt the best ballhandler in MU history it was extremely hard to take. The explanation that bilsu gives has Al's thinking all over it. That is, that somehow an older poor dribbling forward was a better choice than a highly gifted sophomore pointguard. Respectfully, Al was wrong that time and Jim Chones did not cost MU that game.
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Think it was George Faeber who stole the ball, Dean ran away from the ball as told to me by one of the players on the team! Of course, Ric Cobb missed the second free throw to win the game, to bad. Loved to have seen how Al would have guarded Lew Alcindor
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Loved to have seen how Al would have guarded Lew Alcindor
Al was too short, slow and old to guard the future Kareem. I didn't even know he had eligibility left!
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Jonathan Givony
@DraftExpress
Every NBA team submitted votes for 70 players for the NBA Combine and G League Elite Camp today. Around 100 players will be invited after the tally count to participate in one of the two camps. With the Combine dates pushed back a month, expect quite a few int'l players to attend
https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1400903980969041923
There are 355 NBA Draft entrants so far and Garcia was one of 100 invited to the combine. 60 of those will get drafted.
I think it's pretty safe to say he's an NBA talent.
Yes, but if he's not top 30, then he's not a guaranteed contract NBA talent.
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Yes, but if he's not top 30, then he's not a guaranteed contract NBA talent.
People cared about that 5-10 years ago, not so much anymore. It went from are you lottery, to are you first round, to are you going to get drafted, to are you going to get a 2-way. At this point, anyone that thinks they can get a 2-way, which is probably a lot of players whether realistic or not, is likely to be seriously tempted to take their shot.
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People cared about that 5-10 years ago, not so much anymore. It went from are you lottery, to are you first round, to are you going to get drafted, to are you going to get a 2-way. At this point, anyone that thinks they can get a 2-way, which is probably a lot of players whether realistic or not, is likely to be seriously tempted to take their shot.
First Round 30
Second Round 30
Two Way (Max)60
That is a potential total of 120 spots
I think there is something like 350 names in the pool(correct me if I am wrong) . So yeah if a kid thinks he is top 1/3 in the pool he is potentially going to go for it.
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First Round 30
Second Round 30
Two Way (Max)60
That is a potential total of 120 spots
I think there is something like 350 names in the pool(correct me if I am wrong) . So yeah if a kid thinks he is top 1/3 in the pool he is potentially going to go for it.
And I suspect there are 350 kids who think that they're top 1/3. Can't really blame people for betting on themselves.
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And I suspect there are 350 kids who think that they're top 1/3. Can't really blame people for betting on themselves.
I think this is exactly right.
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First Round 30
Second Round 30
Two Way (Max)60
That is a potential total of 120 spots
I think there is something like 350 names in the pool(correct me if I am wrong) . So yeah if a kid thinks he is top 1/3 in the pool he is potentially going to go for it.
I thinbk you are over counting. First round 30 guaranteed contracts. Some second round picks will end up with two way contracts. Can a player that has a two way contract this year get a two way contract next year? If so, then there will be less available two way contracts for this year's class.
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I thinbk you are over counting. First round 30 guaranteed contracts. Some second round picks will end up with two way contracts. Can a player that has a two way contract this year get a two way contract next year? If so, then there will be less available two way contracts for this year's class.
I was doing the theoretical max, i.e. All Second get a contract and all two way go to this years class. As you point out that is not what actually happens. I was just showing how an optimistic and confident player would see their chances through rose colored ( or blue and gold colored ) glasses.
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Nope. Chones left about 3/4ths of the way through his second season under Al -- because freshmen weren't allowed to play back then.
Marquette got a total of 50 games, and one NCAA tournament appearance, in Chones' 1 3/4 seasons.
You are right. But he played most of his junior year.
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So any new news on Dawson? Has he been spotted at Chipotle? Have they retired his walking boot?
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First Round 30
Second Round 30
Two Way (Max)60
That is a potential total of 120 spots
I think there is something like 350 names in the pool(correct me if I am wrong) . So yeah if a kid thinks he is top 1/3 in the pool he is potentially going to go for it.
I don't think your numbers are correct. There will not be 60 NEW 2-way contracts every year. The rule is that each team may have 2 players on 2-way contracts. Only players in their fourth NBA season or earlier are able to sign Two-Way Contracts, which can be for either one or two seasons.
So it is not 60 2-ways each year from guys declaring for the draft. The 60 players comprise guys coming out of college, G League players, guys already signed to 2-ways, and foreign players.
So out of the 350, the actual number of contracts available is much less that 120, probably well under 100.
So if Garcia wants to go to the G League, he would probably be on a standard G League contract, hoping to improve to get a 2-way or a 10 day contract where he could impress a team enough to sign him to a deal.
If anybody sees a mistake here, please let me know.
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I don't think your numbers are correct. There will not be 60 NEW 2-way contracts every year. The rule is that each team may have 2 players on 2-way contracts. Only players in their fourth NBA season or earlier are able to sign Two-Way Contracts, which can be for either one or two seasons.
So it is not 60 2-ways each year from guys declaring for the draft. The 60 players comprise guys coming out of college, G League players, guys already signed to 2-ways, and foreign players.
So out of the 350, the actual number of contracts available is much less that 120, probably well under 100.
So if Garcia wants to go to the G League, he would probably be on a standard G League contract, hoping to improve to get a 2-way or a 10 day contract where he could impress a team enough to sign him to a deal.
If anybody sees a mistake here, please let me know.
This is largely correct, but the language is less than four years of service. I don't think the NBA has partial years of service however?
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I don't think your numbers are correct. There will not be 60 NEW 2-way contracts every year. The rule is that each team may have 2 players on 2-way contracts. Only players in their fourth NBA season or earlier are able to sign Two-Way Contracts, which can be for either one or two seasons.
So it is not 60 2-ways each year from guys declaring for the draft. The 60 players comprise guys coming out of college, G League players, guys already signed to 2-ways, and foreign players.
So out of the 350, the actual number of contracts available is much less that 120, probably well under 100.
So if Garcia wants to go to the G League, he would probably be on a standard G League contract, hoping to improve to get a 2-way or a 10 day contract where he could impress a team enough to sign him to a deal.
If anybody sees a mistake here, please let me know.
As I pointed out to Bilsu earlier above, the 60 two way number was a theoretical max number if all those contracts came from new college players. I was just trying to come up with the largest number of available spots. You are correct in real life number the two way number is lower.
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Bottom line is to wait a year and improve his stock to becoming a millionaire drafted i. The first round. If he goes to the G league and does not improve it will take awhile to get a big contract. Improve in college or be like Vander Blue
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Bottom line is to wait a year and improve his stock to becoming a millionaire drafted i. The first round. If he goes to the G league and does not improve it will take awhile to get a big contract. Improve in college or be like Vander Blue
No that's not the bottom line. Players can improve all sorts of places these days. College...G-League...Europe... They should go where they feel the situation is best for them.
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People cared about that 5-10 years ago, not so much anymore. It went from are you lottery, to are you first round, to are you going to get drafted, to are you going to get a 2-way. At this point, anyone that thinks they can get a 2-way, which is probably a lot of players whether realistic or not, is likely to be seriously tempted to take their shot.
i don't see it this way...see it more as guaranteed money in the first round...and if you're not getting guaranteed money you should think about if your stock will be higher in a year given your expected trajectory. he can take his shot anytime...unless he feels his stock will never be higher. i think vander felt that way after the NCAA run...and i think he was likely right...while many criticized him and he hasn't made it...i don't think another year at MU was going to get him into the first round.
i don't feel that way about garcia at this point. is trying to make the nba from the g league easier than doing so from MU? if he turns out not to be NBA material, is he likely to make more money overseas coming from MU or from the g league? those are the two questions i'd be asking myself if i wasn't looking at very probable guarunteed money in the nba.
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No that's not the bottom line. Players can improve all sorts of places these days. College...G-League...Europe... They should go where they feel the situation is best for them.
+1
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Looks like both Dawson and DJ Carton will be at the G League combine coming up. Wishing them both well--even though I selfishly hope Dawson comes back for next year now that it sounds like Morsell is leaning this way.
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No that's not the bottom line. Players can improve all sorts of places these days. College...G-League...Europe... They should go where they feel the situation is best for them.
Sure you can improve much like Anderson did, but Garcia has along way to go to improve. Play against college kids and stand out vs. the G league and get a minimum contract. Ellenson got 5M set for life, now he is struggling to get into the show but has the money. Garcia will have nothing financially if he goes to the G League but hope. I like guarantee money.
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Sure you can improve much like Anderson did, but Garcia has along way to go to improve. Play against college kids and stand out vs. the G league and get a minimum contract. Ellenson got 5M set for life, now he is struggling to get into the show but has the money. Garcia will have nothing financially if he goes to the G League but hope. I like guarantee money.
He would get no guaranteed money if he returned to Marquette.
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He would get no guaranteed money if he returned to Marquette.
Not if Scoop has any say--
Rocky, can we use the Scoop profits to pay Dawson under the table?
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He would get no guaranteed money if he returned to Marquette.
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He is guaranteed a chance to get closer to graduating from college, travel for free, socialize with your peers, have fun and improve your game, probably worth 75K that MU’s picking up. Not so bad.
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He is guaranteed a chance to get closer to graduating from college, travel for free, socialize with your peers, have fun and improve your game, probably worth 75K that MU’s picking up. Not so bad.
He can improve his game, travel for free, socialize with his peers, and have fun in the G-League too. And get paid doing so.
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He can improve his game, travel for free, socialize with his peers, and have fun in the G-League too. And get paid doing so.
And paid what, then if he does not show improvement become another Vander Blue.
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And paid what, then if he does not show improvement become another Vander Blue.
More than he would be paid had he stayed in college and met a similar fate.
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No that's not the bottom line. Players can improve all sorts of places these days. College...G-League...Europe... They should go where they feel the situation is best for them.
Agreed. I selfishly hope for Garcia to come back, but the best move for his future would be to stay in the draft and end up in the G League.
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More than he would be paid had he stayed in college and met a similar fate.
You barely make enough money to live on, vs opportunity the following year to make millions as a first round pick??
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You barely make enough money to live on, vs opportunity the following year to make millions as a first round pick??
That money is for 6-7 months work. There's other streams of revenue available to these guys during the balance of the year. Plus their living expense aren't the same as the normal kid starting at Enterprise. In many ways being in the G League is like going to college except you get to focus 100% on your major and they compensate you for your time invested.
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Hoping that Dawson and DJ do incredible things at the G League Combine, and then get an invite to the NBA Combine.
https://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-announces-field-of-40-draft-prospects-for-2021-nba-g-league-elite-camp-in-chicago/
Going down this list, there is no reason that are two MU guys can't be among the top 5 in the camp. They will just have to play hard the whole time .
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You barely make enough money to live on, vs opportunity the following year to make millions as a first round pick??
Why are you assuming he’s a guaranteed first round pick if he returns to MU?
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G League camp roster.
https://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-announces-field-of-40-draft-prospects-for-2021-nba-g-league-elite-camp-in-chicago/
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i don't see it this way...see it more as guaranteed money in the first round...and if you're not getting guaranteed money you should think about if your stock will be higher in a year given your expected trajectory. he can take his shot anytime...unless he feels his stock will never be higher. i think vander felt that way after the NCAA run...and i think he was likely right...while many criticized him and he hasn't made it...i don't think another year at MU was going to get him into the first round.
i don't feel that way about garcia at this point. is trying to make the nba from the g league easier than doing so from MU? if he turns out not to be NBA material, is he likely to make more money overseas coming from MU or from the g league? those are the two questions i'd be asking myself if i wasn't looking at very probable guarunteed money in the nba.
I'm talking about how recent history has actually happened, not how any of us think it should have happened. More players declaring and staying in regardless of draft predictions. I think we're to the point where if a guy is on top-100 lists, they're probably gone, no matter what we may think.
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Agreed. I selfishly hope for Garcia to come back, but the best move for his future would be to stay in the draft and end up in the G League.
It’s an alternative move not definitively the best move. Whatever path he chooses hopefully it works out for him.
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Not if Scoop has any say--
Rocky, can we use the Scoop profits to pay Dawson under the table?
I mean, if NIL is on the table, "MUScoop presented by Dawson Garcia" is plausible.
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Why are you assuming he’s a guaranteed first round pick if he returns to MU?
As Al said the biggest improvement of a player is from his freshman to sophomore year. Can he be a first round pick, maybe, maybe not. Time will tell. But I know one thing, I do not believe he will be drafted in either round this year
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Not if Scoop has any say--
Rocky, can we use the Scoop profits to pay Dawson under the table?
I thought that’s why we had the Underboard.
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I was curious so here's what happened with each of the NCAA Freshman who were invited to the combine the last 2 years.
44 Total Invites.
31 Drafted
8 GLeague
5 Back to NCAA
2019 Pick #
RJ Barrett 2
Charles Bassey NCAA
Bol Bol 44
Ignas Brazdeikis 47
Moses Brown Gleague 2way
Luguentz Dort Gleague 2way
Devon Dotson Gleague 2way
Darius Garland 5
Quentin Grimes NCAA
Jaxson Hayes 8
Tyler Herro 13
Jaylen Hoard Gleague 2way
Talen Horton Tucker 46
Keldon Johnson 29
Louis King Gleague 2way
Romeo Langford 14
Nassir Little 25
Kevin Porter Jr 30
Neemias Queta NCAA
Cam Reddish 10
Naz Reid Gleague 2way
Simi craptu Gleague
Coby White 7
Zion Williamson 1
Since there seems to be some question about which way makes the most money. I see 3 undrafted undrafted players from 2019 that signed 2-way contracts who have since signed deals approaching that of Henry's (a first round pick) lifetime earnings. Brown, Dort, and Reid all left college with eligibility remaining, all went undrafted, and all found their way into the league regardless. Three examples from only one draft class. I'm sure there are plenty more out there from over the years. If you get drafted in the first round, your first paycheck may be bigger, but by no means is that the only way to make enough money to be set for life. DG needs to make the best decision for himself, whatever that decision is, there are numerous routes to making a lot of money.
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He can improve his game, travel for free, socialize with his peers, and have fun in the G-League too. And get paid doing so.
This
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This
That’s like saying going to St Norberts is the exact same as going to Marquette. Smh
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Since there seems to be some question about which way makes the most money. I see 3 undrafted undrafted players from 2019 that signed 2-way contracts who have since signed deals approaching that of Henry's (a first round pick) lifetime earnings. Brown, Dort, and Reid all left college with eligibility remaining, all went undrafted, and all found their way into the league regardless. Three examples from only one draft class. I'm sure there are plenty more out there from over the years. If you get drafted in the first round, your first paycheck may be bigger, but by no means is that the only way to make enough money to be set for life. DG needs to make the best decision for himself, whatever that decision is, there are numerous routes to making a lot of money.
True, but the sample size gets very small compared to all the wannabees.
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More than he would be paid had he stayed in college and met a similar fate.
Marquette degree, a few yrs of minor league ball, maybe…maybe, nba. No worries. Degree earned. No college loans.
Or, 1yr at Marquette. No degree. A few years of minor league ball. If no nba, then what? Be an undrafted g-league washout in Euro?
Take the $200k Marquette education, then let it ride.
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Marquette degree, a few yrs of minor league ball, maybe…maybe, nba. No worries. Degree earned. No college loans.
Or, 1yr at Marquette. No degree. A few years of minor league ball. If no nba, then what? Be an undrafted g-league washout in Euro?
Take the $200k Marquette education, then let it ride.
Spoken like a man with no NBA abilities.
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Spoken like a man with no NBA abilities.
And no knowledge that players get to return to school on scholarship to get their degrees if they leave early.
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That’s like saying going to St Norberts is the exact same as going to Marquette. Smh
Or like playing in the minor league vs going to college...
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You barely make enough money to live on, vs opportunity the following year to make millions as a first round pick??
So if you go to the g league you are less likely to get a contract in the nba?
Garcia will improve his game better at MU then in the g league?
Access to NBA scouts is better at MU then the g league?
An MU degree is worth more than g league $$$ for someone who likely doesn't need it as he'll play professionally until he's 35-40?
If, for some reason, he's unable to play professionally...he can't get a college degree?
I wonder what it is worth to be able to focus on basketball 24/7 while your competition has to worry about class and studying. Pro's and con's to both options.
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And paid what, then if he does not show improvement become another Vander Blue.
I think the investment teams are making in their G league assets are night and day from when Vander entered the league. More teams have their own affiliates too. In this era, teams need these developments to have a shot to refill the end of their rotations amidst the max contracts.
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And paid what, then if he does not show improvement become another Vander Blue.
What do you think Vander would have accomplished in his career if he would have stayed another year that he didn't accomplish by leaving a year eaerly?
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Maybe have a big year and get drafted. All I know leaving early did not help him since he was not drafted. Played well in the G league, but only got a cup of coffee in the show. Same thing that might happen to Garcia.
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This isn’t a black and white issue. Lots of grey areas. One side is talking like every player with a sliver of hope for an NBA career should go g-league to make the their 50 grand and toil in anonymity and concentrate on basketball and the other side is saying go to college and have built in marketing of their brand due to actual fan bases and concentrate on basketball (while going to a few classes). Both sides have their appeal to these athletes and should. There is no right answer.
Both have the advantage of hanging with their peers, working on their games and free travel and hotels. There really isn’t much difference except for a few thousand dollars that won’t do anything toward their eventual personal and family wealth.
Both sides of the argument are right in their own way.
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Agreed, total grey area. At MU, Ellenson right decision, multi millionaire, Vander should have played another year in college, maybe he would have gotten drafted, then again maybe not. Garcia we will see, as well as Carton. Carton has the athleticism to play in the NBA.
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This isn’t a black and white issue. Lots of grey areas. One side is talking like every player with a sliver of hope for an NBA career should go g-league to make the their 50 grand and toil in anonymity and concentrate on basketball and the other side is saying go to college and have built in marketing of their brand due to actual fan bases and concentrate on basketball (while going to a few classes). Both sides have their appeal to these athletes and should. There is no right answer.
Both have the advantage of hanging with their peers, working on their games and free travel and hotels. There really isn’t much difference except for a few thousand dollars that won’t do anything toward their eventual personal and family wealth.
Both sides of the argument are right in their own way.
The "right" answer is for the athlete to do what he and his family thinks is best.
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Maybe have a big year and get drafted. All I know leaving early did not help him since he was not drafted. Played well in the G league, but only got a cup of coffee in the show. Same thing that might happen to Garcia.
With all due respect, you don’t seem to have any sort of grasp on the reality of the current NBA and player development paths. As others have mentioned, not only has it come a LONG way since the D League, it’s come miles and changed immensely since Vander graduated. Wes was a fairly unique situation at the time, being an undrafted rookie into a NBA contract. Now that happens all the time.
If you are anywhere close to the NBA, the only person who benefits from going back to college for another year is the fans of your program. You grow much more as a player training every day, not having to worry about class, and playing daily against other pros. Not practices against much less talented teammates and a non con games against teams of guys who will have an office job when their eligibility expires.
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With all due respect, you don’t seem to have any sort of grasp on the reality of the current NBA and player development paths. As others have mentioned, not only has it come a LONG way since the D League, it’s come miles and changed immensely since Vander graduated. Wes was a fairly unique situation at the time, being an undrafted rookie into a NBA contract. Now that happens all the time.
If you are anywhere close to the NBA, the only person who benefits from going back to college for another year is the fans of your program. You grow much more as a player training every day, not having to worry about class, and playing daily against other pros. Not practices against much less talented teammates and a non con games against teams of guys who will have an office job when their eligibility expires.
And with all due respect, 30 players who returned to school last year were drafted. 12 in the first round. Like others have said, there's no one perfect path to doing this.
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Its depressing that professional basketball is sucking the life blood out of college ball by paying the most talented kids to drop out of School after a year. It's really sickening. How can there be an endless amount of openings on professional team rosters? For most of us our college years were some of the greatest of our lives - the friendships, the classes, the parties and campus activities. I feel sorry for drop outs who won't have these memories.
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Maybe have a big year and get drafted. All I know leaving early did not help him since he was not drafted. Played well in the G league, but only got a cup of coffee in the show. Same thing that might happen to Garcia.
Maybe he would have blown out his knee. Maybe had a terrible year. Maybe a slightly better year and still not draft material.
Given how hard he seems to have worked and still come up a bit short...I think he may have been right to leave...his stock was never going to be higher.
He obviously could have made a solid living playing overseas if he had chosen to do so during his prime. He chased his dreams and put his money where his mouth is more than I ever have.
I don't see Garcia and Vander as good comparisons at all.
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FIFY- Its depressing that professional basketball is sucking the life blood out of college ball by paying the most talented kids to drop out of School after a year. It's really sickening. How can there be an endless amount of openings on professional team rosters? For most of us our college years were some of the greatest of our lives - the friendships, the classes, the parties and campus activities. I feel sorry for drop outs who won't have these memories.
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Its depressing that professional basketball is sucking the life blood out of college ball by paying the most talented kids to drop out of School after a year. It's really sickening. How can there be an endless amount of openings on professional team rosters? For most of us our college years were some of the greatest of our lives - the friendships, the classes, the parties and campus activities. I feel sorry for drop outs who won't have these memories.
For some people, college blows.
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Its depressing that professional basketball is sucking the life blood out of college ball by paying the most talented kids to drop out of School after a year. It's really sickening. How can there be an endless amount of openings on professional team rosters? For most of us our college years were some of the greatest of our lives - the friendships, the classes, the parties and campus activities. I feel sorry for drop outs who won't have these memories.
The classes? Nerd!
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Let's add a little dose of reality here.
It was no fun being a student and student athlete during the past 1.5 years. Playing in front of no one. Under lock down in your rooms. Restricted on open gym and weight room access. No social life. A coach change.
Let's also add some G League reality. Long bus rides to god awful cities. Crappy food options. Low salaries unless Select where you now pay taxes and have to dip into your own pockets for home living expenses like rent, food, phone and insurance. Hoffman Estates, Walnut Creek and Cleveland may be the most exciting cities.
For this elite group, the Select designation now offers a more attractive path if earned. Low six figures, early identification for promotion to the parent, a chance to work on their game 100%, especially if school is not your thing.
To me fwiw, this option seems a great choice for DJ from the little I know and what he has said about school. C19 and the Wojo change may have been the tipping point emotionally.
While not a bad choice for Dawson, it is a bit more grey, as I think if he waits, he might earn guaranteed money in the future. That is why it is so smart for him to go through the evaluation process, balance his economic options, get graded.
In both cases, the young men and their families are doing a much better job than us Scoop Intelligencia in evaluating their paths forward. Good luck to both.
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The "right" answer is for the athlete to do what he and his family thinks is best.
Correct. This is the only thing that matters. Both ways are excellent at developing players for professional careers.
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Let's add a little dose of reality here.
It was no fun being a student and student athlete during the past 1.5 years. Playing in front of no one. Under lock down in your rooms. Restricted on open gym and weight room access. No social life. A coach change.
Let's also add some G League reality. Long bus rides to god awful cities. Crappy food options. Low salaries unless Select where you now pay taxes and have to dip into your own pockets for home living expenses like rent, food, phone and insurance. Hoffman Estates, Walnut Creek and Cleveland may be the most exciting cities.
For this elite group, the Select designation now offers a more attractive path if earned. Low six figures, early identification for promotion to the parent, a chance to work on their game 100%, especially if school is not your thing.
To me fwiw, this option seems a great choice for DJ from the little I know and what he has said about school. C19 and the Wojo change may have been the tipping point emotionally.
While not a bad choice for Dawson, it is a bit more grey, as I think if he waits, he might earn guaranteed money in the future. That is why it is so smart for him to go through the evaluation process, balance his economic options, get graded.
In both cases, the young men and their families are doing a much better job than us Scoop Intelligencia in evaluating their paths forward. Good luck to both.
Yep, yep.
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With all due respect, you don’t seem to have any sort of grasp on the reality of the current NBA and player development paths. As others have mentioned, not only has it come a LONG way since the D League, it’s come miles and changed immensely since Vander graduated. Wes was a fairly unique situation at the time, being an undrafted rookie into a NBA contract. Now that happens all the time.
If you are anywhere close to the NBA, the only person who benefits from going back to college for another year is the fans of your program. You grow much more as a player training every day, not having to worry about class, and playing daily against other pros. Not practices against much less talented teammates and a non con games against teams of guys who will have an office job when their eligibility expires.
Going to class is the only difference with regard to training at a high major school (I know there are limits due to NCAA rules with coaches present but athletes can use all their free time in the gym if they want). Both ways allow you to prepare against future pros. Most starters at a high Major schools could have a pro basketball career in some shape or form after college.
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Its depressing that professional basketball is sucking the life blood out of college ball by paying the most talented kids to drop out of School after a year. It's really sickening. How can there be an endless amount of openings on professional team rosters? For most of us our college years were some of the greatest of our lives - the friendships, the classes, the parties and campus activities. I feel sorry for drop outs who won't have these memories.
But a high major D1 athlete misses out on almost all of this stuff, so their memories of college won't even be close to the same as ours. It's a job, and your paycheck can either be in the form of tuition (NCAA) or actual dollars (G-League, foreign leagues, etc.). There's no wrong choice.
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Let's add a little dose of reality here.
This is scoop. Pretty sure that isn't allowed here.
Well said, btw.
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Its depressing that professional basketball is sucking the life blood out of college ball by paying the most talented kids to drop out of School after a year. It's really sickening. How can there be an endless amount of openings on professional team rosters? For most of us our college years were some of the greatest of our lives - the friendships, the classes, the parties and campus activities. I feel sorry for drop outs who won't have these memories.
But they don't get near that freedom we all did. Most their meals are planned, they can't take part in many activities (remember when Lazar wanted to join Rowing?) they maybe get a month or two of parties each year and have to be careful about where they go. I agree on the friendships, and would add feeling a part of a larger community is awesome as I'd back up the most hated MU alum any day over a Domer. But that all being said if a kid isn't in it to be a part of the community anyways then that's that.
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But a high major D1 athlete misses out on almost all of this stuff, so their memories of college won't even be close to the same as ours. It's a job, and your paycheck can either be in the form of tuition (NCAA) or actual dollars (G-League, foreign leagues, etc.). There's no wrong choice.
Reiterating this point. In my daughter's sophomore year, one of the seniors on her team was asked not to return to the team but her scholarship was honored. At the time, my daughter half-jokingly said, "that's the dream...to be able to spend senior year on scholarship but not have any of the responsibilities..." She couldn't know at the time that COVID would make that a reality. Not intending to make light of COVID, of course but just pointing out that for many athletes, it really is just a job and a means to an end.
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Reiterating this point. In my daughter's sophomore year, one of the seniors on her team was asked not to return to the team but her scholarship was honored. At the time, my daughter half-jokingly said, "that's the dream...to be able to spend senior year on scholarship but not have any of the responsibilities..." She couldn't know at the time that COVID would make that a reality. Not intending to make light of COVID, of course but just pointing out that for many athletes, it really is just a job and a means to an end.
My kids lives were : get up early every morning , watch film, then go to practice get the crap beat out of you every day , then weight room , then physical therapy w. Take classes and then go to mandatory study hall ( which they monitor with a swipe card) . Several weekends with community service for pe purposes . Rinse and repeat .
During off season there were parties and getting access to all Greek life without being a member , which was nice ,but really no time for much else. Very few kids had friends who were NARPs (non athletic , random , Person) . The few that did treasured those friendships.
So there are definitely trade offs of being high major D1 athlete .
Many kids who saw no future in their sports start putting in heavier effort in classroom Junior and Senior year . They see the payoff in the alumni connections for jobs and ability to get into grad schools.
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I'm sure this was posted when it was first published, but I think it deserves to be brought up again.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/warriors/article/Life-on-NBA-s-fringe-Will-Vander-Blue-s-14942106.php
This article discussed how Vander had the offer for 7 figure contracts overseas, but turned them down for the G-League (similar to what Juan did). It also talks about the night-club incident that hampered him in a crucial preseason.
Dawson (and DJ for that matter) both have enough skills to be successful basketball players in wherever they end up. Opportunities for money will also be presented to them.
If Dawson chooses to return, great. If he doesn't, best of luck. Neither decision is a mistake. He wants his job to be a basketball player, and he will have that opportunity.
Now if NIL changes and he has a chance to profit while at MU, the argument takes a bit of a change. But if his ultimate goal is to profit from his above-average athletic abilities, then he will have that chance, regardless of returning.
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Its depressing that professional basketball is sucking the life blood out of college ball by paying the most talented kids to drop out of School after a year. It's really sickening. How can there be an endless amount of openings on professional team rosters? For most of us our college years were some of the greatest of our lives - the friendships, the classes, the parties and campus activities. I feel sorry for drop outs who won't have these memories.
You are depressed because college athletes want to investigate all opportunities -- and take advantage of those that they and their families believe serve them best -- rather than cater to your fandom?
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You are depressed because college athletes want to investigate all opportunities -- and take advantage of those that they and their families believe serve them best -- rather than cater to your fandom?
His vision of high level intercollegiate athletics dates back to approximately 1964.
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Maybe have a big year and get drafted. All I know leaving early did not help him since he was not drafted. Played well in the G league, but only got a cup of coffee in the show. Same thing that might happen to Garcia.
It's been well-documented that Vander thought putting MU on his back and bringing them to an Elite 8 was his best chance at getting drafted and a shot at the NBA. He was doing what's right for him. Hindsight says he may be wrong. But looking at the following years team, he probably made the right choice.
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It's been well-documented that Vander thought putting MU on his back and bringing them to an Elite 8 was his best chance at getting drafted and a shot at the NBA. He was doing what's right for him. Hindsight says he may be wrong. But looking at the following years team, he probably made the right choice.
That following years team would have been much, much better if Vander were here.
That doesnt mean he made the wrong choice. But the results of that team without Vander, does not also mean he made the right one.
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That following years team would have been much, much better if Vander were here.
That doesnt mean he made the wrong choice. But the results of that team without Vander, does not also mean he made the right one.
Agree - but looking at that roster, I don't think they were getting back to the Elite 8. And Vander had made up his mind that his NCAA run was enough to get an NBA look.
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Going to class is the only difference with regard to training at a high major school (I know there are limits due to NCAA rules with coaches present but athletes can use all their free time in the gym if they want). Both ways allow you to prepare against future pros. Most starters at a high Major schools could have a pro basketball career in some shape or form after college.
Classes, study halls, tutor sessions, meals, etc... There is tons of time that is allocated to "non-BB" activities. And thats not even counting the fact that basketball isnt the sole focus mentally.
You're also not prepping with professional trainers, shooting coaches, etc... who are tailored specifically to you. High D1 basketball programs are exceptional in many regards, make no mistake, but there is still a difference between that and the highly focused and individualized workouts that pros do beyond just their standard practice.
And playing against high major starters is just a small portion of their season. Jayce Johnson, Chartouney, and Jake Thomas all played professional basketball. Playing and training against them is very different than other fringe NBA guys.
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Agree - but looking at that roster, I don't think they were getting back to the Elite 8. And Vander had made up his mind that his NCAA run was enough to get an NBA look.
Yeah thats fair. The elite 8 we actually had quite the fine line as it is ha. Coulda been 1 and done.
I do think that team pretty easily makes the tourney with Vander though. So would at least give us a shot.
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It's been well-documented that Vander thought putting MU on his back and bringing them to an Elite 8 was his best chance at getting drafted and a shot at the NBA. He was doing what's right for him. Hindsight says he may be wrong. But looking at the following years team, he probably made the right choice.
Add in the fact that Larry Williams added in "academic progression" requirements (aka, known colloquially as the so called "Crowder Rules"). Vander struggled the previous summer to qualify on progression. Jamail didn't even make the summer cut and TJ Taylor never even cleared MU as he was bounced out in mid-July the summer before. To add support post-Vander's decision, at mid-terms, Todd had to sit until the 2nd semester due to academics and Jameel McKay transferred after Buzz wanted him to redshirt to catch-up academically in a Marquette Madness verbal dust-up (with Otule's 6th year as Buzz's back-up plan already in place).
Vander was done with school at the point of his decision, especially when when right before this Larry objected to Jae and DJO leaving class to participate in the Portsmouth NBA invitational. Jae just dropped out of school, attended and won MVP, while DJO finished school and didn't attend. Vander saw all this and made his choice as he was afraid his senior year value would have been diminished by having to sit out like eventually happened to Mayo.
(Note: I am not trying to relitigate this here as we have beaten this dead horse--and there are pros with that academic shift. But I bring this up to put the entire fact-set into context to Vander's overall decision...and to add a further lens to that preseason "over-ranked" team story that was in actuality missing many planned key pieces--maybe two-three starters and 2-3 key bench players lost over a year.)
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Add in the fact that Larry Williams added in "academic progression" requirements (aka, known colloquially as the so called "Crowder Rules"). Vander struggled the previous summer to qualify on progression. Jamail didn't even make the summer cut and TJ Taylor never even cleared MU as he was bounced out in mid-July the summer before. To add support post-Vander's decision, at mid-terms, Todd had to sit until the 2nd semester due to academics and Jameel McKay transferred after Buzz wanted him to redshirt to catch-up academically in a Marquette Madness verbal dust-up (with Otule's 6th year as Buzz's back-up plan already in place).
Vander was done with school at the point of his decision, especially when when right before this Larry objected to Jae and DJO leaving class to participate in the Portsmouth NBA invitational. Jae just dropped out of school, attended and won MVP, while DJO finished school and didn't attend. Vander saw all this and made his choice as he was afraid his senior year value would have been diminished by having to sit out like eventually happened to Mayo.
(Note: I am not trying to relitigate this here as we have beaten this dead horse--and there are pros with that academic shift. But I bring this up to put the entire fact-set into context to Vander's overall decision...and to add a further lens to that preseason "over-ranked" team story that was in actuality missing many planned key pieces--maybe two-three starters and 2-3 key bench players lost over a year.)
Thanks for posting this. These facts shed a lot of lite on what happened toward the end of Buzz tenure , it really explains a lot of things.
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Hold on... The reason McKay left is because they asked him to redshirt???
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Hold on... The reason McKay left is because they asked him to redshirt???
Different than the usually explained playing out of position reason but seems to make a bit more sense given that we had Otule and Gardner already for the 5 and Jamil and Gardner at the 4.
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Different than the usually explained playing out of position reason but seems to make a bit more sense given that we had Otule and Gardner already for the 5 and Jamil and Gardner at the 4.
Yeah, it makes A LOT more sense. Hell, I would have done the same exact thing (transfer).
So the whole TJ Taylor thing wasn't about missing his girlfriend either?
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Hold on... The reason McKay left is because they asked him to redshirt???
Can't they be related? Note the timing (mid-terms). McKay transferred and sat out a year anyway.
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So the whole TJ Taylor thing wasn't about missing his girlfriend either?
So you still believe Patrick Hazel left for playing time too?
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Yeah, it makes A LOT more sense. Hell, I would have done the same exact thing (transfer).
So the whole TJ Taylor thing wasn't about missing his girlfriend either?
But he had to sit longer by transferring vs. redshirting (1.5 years at Iowa St. vs. 1 year here), and he lost half a year of eligibility as a result (only played 1.5 seasons vs. 2 he would have played here)
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So you still believe Patrick Hazel left for playing time too?
LOL, no. I am no doubting you.
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But he had to sit longer by transferring vs. redshirting (1.5 years at Iowa St. vs. 1 year here), and he lost half a year of eligibility as a result (only played 1.5 seasons vs. 2 he would have played here)
He didn't lose a half a year. He lost eligibility for nine games played during the first semester.
And yeah, I would be pissed that I committed to Marquette in June 2012, worked to be eligible, and then in Fall 2013 was asked to redshirt just before the season began. (For academic reasons.)
If I'm going to sit somewhere, I'm going to sit at a place that didn't screw me over.
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Did Larry Williams not understand the job? It's fine (and expected) to have people from Marquette / Ohara Hall (or now Zilber) pushing the academic agenda but your AD needs to be a mediator. Figure out a way for Jae Crowder to leave happy, etc.
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He didn't lose a half a year. He lost eligibility for nine games played during the first semester.
And yeah, I would be pissed that I committed to Marquette in June 2012, worked to be eligible, and then in Fall 2013 was asked to redshirt just before the season began. (For academic reasons.)
If I'm going to sit somewhere, I'm going to sit at a place that didn't screw me over.
Fair. I also hate Larry Williams so I'm not going to begrudge anyone a spite-transfer away from him. I just would have killed to see that team with Vander & McKay under Buzz so I'm obviously biased!
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So how did Jamil McKay obtain 30 transferable credits in one semester of JUCO--which he did--in order to be eligible? Come on, this gorilla has been in the room for a long time, yet, it is never considered to have anything to do with his transfer. I have no inside info but his eligibility always seemed a bit shaky to me.
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College basketball doesn’t improve known commodities draft stock. Maximize your earnings potential and leave early if you have professional aspirations.
The only people who disagree are the disingenuous fans of those players who selfishly want them to return so their team is good.
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Fair. I also hate Larry Williams so I'm not going to begrudge anyone a spite-transfer away from him. I just would have killed to see that team with Vander & McKay under Buzz so I'm obviously biased!
Larry Williams: Tainted with No Dick stink all over him.
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Larry Williams: Tainted with No Dick stink all over him.
Bob Scholl went to Notre Dame as well so....
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Larry Williams: Tainted with No Dick stink all over him.
Such an immature take. Homer and Bill Scholl both have deep Notre Dame roots and they are incredible assets to our program.
Larry William's inability to see the value in a student athlete training for and attending pre draft camps tells me he'd fail at ND just as he failed here.
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College basketball doesn’t improve known commodities draft stock. Maximize your earnings potential and leave early if you have professional aspirations.
The only people who disagree are the disingenuous fans of those players who selfishly want them to return so their team is good.
Obi Toppin is on line 1.
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Such an immature take. Homer and Bill Scholl both have deep Notre Dame roots and they are incredible assets to our program.
Larry William's inability to see the value in a student athlete training for and attending pre draft camps tells me he'd fail at ND just as he failed here.
It failed at Akron too. They just replaced Larry with the UW-GB AD.
Larry was brought in to fix the football program which was and is still bleeding money. His head coach hire has gone 1-17.
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College basketball doesn’t improve known commodities draft stock. Maximize your earnings potential and leave early if you have professional aspirations.
The only people who disagree are the disingenuous fans of those players who selfishly want them to return so their team is good.
You know there are these things called shades of gray.
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Obi Toppin is on line 1.
Known commodities being the operative phrase in my statement. How many mock drafts was he on after his freshman year?
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Known commodities being the operative phrase in my statement. How many mock drafts was he on after his freshman year?
He was 1st team A-10 his Freshman year. Pretty well known
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He was 1st team A-10 his Freshman year. Pretty well known
So was Jacob Gilyard....
Once again, how many mock drafts did he show up on after his freshman year?
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No Garcia (or Carton) on the list of NBA Combine participants.
https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1404908304262909952?s=20
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No Garcia (or Carton) on the list of NBA Combine participants.
https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1404908304262909952?s=20
Interesting... maybe some hope for Garcia yet?
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No Garcia (or Carton) on the list of NBA Combine participants.
https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1404908304262909952?s=20
But they are invited to the G League Combine and can play their way into and invite to the NBA Combine
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But they are invited to the G League Combine and can play their way into and invite to the NBA Combine
I am hoping both knock it out of the ball park at the G League Combine. Really want to see these two guys get drafted.
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No Garcia (or Carton) on the list of NBA Combine participants.
https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1404908304262909952?s=20
Congrats to Sam for making the list.
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Congrats to Sam for making the list.
There were 5 Big East guys on the list, 6 if you give partial credit to Sam's years of service.
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Hmm does Sam get 3/4 of a painting on the wall at the Al if he makes it?
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Hmm does Sam get 3/4 of a painting on the wall at the Al if he makes it?
HELL no.
Guy had his chance to be an all time MU great. Instead he went to a place where even if he won a National title, he was just a guy who was around for a year following up the original champions. And in reality he won as many Tourney games with the defending National champions as he did at Marquette.
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So was Jacob Gilyard....
Once again, how many mock drafts did he show up on after his freshman year?
Back to the NBA knowing about Obi:
Following the end of the season he declared for the 2019 NBA draft, but did not hire an agent.[9] After working out for several NBA teams, Toppin opted to withdraw from the draft and return to Dayton.[10][11]
Szkolar, Adrian (April 17, 2019). "Obi Toppin, Ossining graduate, declares for 2019 NBA Draft". The Journal News. Retrieved April 10, 2020.
Jablonski, Dave (May 28, 2019). "Dayton Flyers forward Obi Toppin withdraws from NBA Draft". Dayton Daily News. Retrieved November 14, 2019.
Albertie, Quenton S. (May 13, 2019). "2019 NBA Draft: Celtics workout Obi Toppin, A-10 Rookie of the Year". Celtics Wire. USA Today. Retrieved November 14, 2019.
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HELL no.
Guy had his chance to be an all time MU great. Instead he went to a place where even if he won a National title, he was just a guy who was around for a year following up the original champions. And in reality he won as many Tourney games with the defending National champions as he did at Marquette.
Sounds like you have much bias. Sam left because of Wojo-Dukiet who then got his ass canned. Sam could not take Wojo-Dukiets bs, and eventually MU could not either.
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Back to the NBA knowing about Obi:
Following the end of the season he declared for the 2019 NBA draft, but did not hire an agent.[9] After working out for several NBA teams, Toppin opted to withdraw from the draft and return to Dayton.[10][11]
Szkolar, Adrian (April 17, 2019). "Obi Toppin, Ossining graduate, declares for 2019 NBA Draft". The Journal News. Retrieved April 10, 2020.
Jablonski, Dave (May 28, 2019). "Dayton Flyers forward Obi Toppin withdraws from NBA Draft". Dayton Daily News. Retrieved November 14, 2019.
Albertie, Quenton S. (May 13, 2019). "2019 NBA Draft: Celtics workout Obi Toppin, A-10 Rookie of the Year". Celtics Wire. USA Today. Retrieved November 14, 2019.
All very interesting information Dog. Where was he on any mock draft ? That would be a pretty simple indication on whether or not he was on any NBA execs radar going into the 2019 draft….
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Wouldnt know where to look to find a mock draft for 2019 before he pulled his name out of the draft. He was clearly on teams radars if he was invited for workouts. I would venture he was higher rated than Garcia is now.
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Add in the fact that Larry Williams added in "academic progression" requirements (aka, known colloquially as the so called "Crowder Rules"). Vander struggled the previous summer to qualify on progression. Jamail didn't even make the summer cut and TJ Taylor never even cleared MU as he was bounced out in mid-July the summer before. To add support post-Vander's decision, at mid-terms, Todd had to sit until the 2nd semester due to academics and Jameel McKay transferred after Buzz wanted him to redshirt to catch-up academically in a Marquette Madness verbal dust-up (with Otule's 6th year as Buzz's back-up plan already in place).
Vander was done with school at the point of his decision, especially when when right before this Larry objected to Jae and DJO leaving class to participate in the Portsmouth NBA invitational. Jae just dropped out of school, attended and won MVP, while DJO finished school and didn't attend. Vander saw all this and made his choice as he was afraid his senior year value would have been diminished by having to sit out like eventually happened to Mayo.
(Note: I am not trying to relitigate this here as we have beaten this dead horse--and there are pros with that academic shift. But I bring this up to put the entire fact-set into context to Vander's overall decision...and to add a further lens to that preseason "over-ranked" team story that was in actuality missing many planned key pieces--maybe two-three starters and 2-3 key bench players lost over a year.)
Way back when I was drinking heavily with Vander's HS buddies. They insisted that Vander had decided to move on from MU before the season even started. There was no chance for MU to retain him. It was hard for me to hear because Vander was having such a wonderful season, but it turns out they weren't pulling my leg.
Oh, what could have been had Marquette never crossed paths with Larry Williams and Fr Pilarz.
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Wouldnt know where to look to find a mock draft for 2019 before he pulled his name out of the draft. He was clearly on teams radars if he was invited for workouts. I would venture he was higher rated than Garcia is now.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/nba/2018/12/05/2019-nba-draft-big-board-duke-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-cam-reddish-unc-nassir-little
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2019-nba-mock-draft-top-three-of-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-ja-morant-a-virtual-lock-and-then-things-get-interesting/amp/
https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/ESPN-2019-NBA-Mock-Draft-127935665/#127935665_18
https://basketballsocietyonline.com/2019-nba-mock-draft-version-1-0
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2019/1/23/18190748/nba-mock-draft-2019-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-ja-morant-order
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nba/news/nba-mock-draft-2019-lottery-pelicans-knicks-hawks-duke-lakers-pick/1o4cowfofg0z1fflps2ib3rm2
https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/2019-nba-mock-draft-30-pelicans-are-the-big-winners-with-zion-173924494.html
Here’s a few from various points during the 18/19 season and up until the point Toppin withdrew his name.
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Way back when I was drinking heavily with Vander's HS buddies. They insisted that Vander had decided to move on from MU before the season even started. There was no chance for MU to retain him. It was hard for me to hear because Vander was having such a wonderful season, but it turns out they weren't pulling my leg.
If this is true and he didn't let Buzz know, shame on Vander. If this is true and he did let Buzz know, shame on Buzz for failing to add a good PG via recruiting or transfer.
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A Dawson blurb in this 247 story about stay/go decisions that will impact the upcoming season:
There is a new coach in Milwaukee as former Texas coach Shaka Smart prepares for his first season at Marquette.
Having freshman power forward Dawson Garcia back would sure help Smart when it comes to establishing himself.
At nearly 6-foot-11, Garcia certainly has the size and skill to eventually play in the NBA. He did score an invite to the G League Elite Camp, but that’s probably not the most encouraging thing for somebody who is hoping to be a first round pick or at least get a guarantee in the second.
Garcia would likely improve on the 13.0 points and 6.6 rebounds per game he put up as a freshman if he comes back to play for Smart and he would certainly be a big boost for what is going to be a much different looking team.
https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/10-NBA-Draft-deadline-decisions-that-could-impact-the-2021-22-college-season-166569954/#166569954_4
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Some good info in there, but talk about a crapshoot after the top couple picks. My point still remains, Obi had NBA aspirations and improved his stock by coming back to school.
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Sounds like you have much bias. Sam left because of Wojo-Dukiet who then got his ass canned. Sam could not take Wojo-Dukiets bs, and eventually MU could not either.
Sam is a quitter but a helluva letter writer
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Some good info in there, but talk about a crapshoot after the top couple picks. My point still remains, Obi had NBA aspirations and improved his stock by coming back to school.
And by and large, had a high ceiling going into his sophomore year.
A guy like vander or Henry, as known commodities, made the correct move as they had been thoroughly scouted. Not much they can improve upon in one year that would significantly change their draft stock.
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Sam is a quitter but a helluva letter writer
True. But he’s gonna have an NBA career. Not surprised he’s been invited to the combine.
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True. But he’s gonna have an NBA career. Not surprised he’s been invited to the combine.
interesting. So you believe Sam makes it in the NBA. I guess I just don’t see it. Does he get drafted, or go the Wes Matthews route? Who would you compare him to that’s in the nba currently?
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interesting. So you believe Sam makes it in the NBA. I guess I just don’t see it. Does he get drafted, or go the Wes Matthews route? Who would you compare him to that’s in the nba currently?
Several of us have had this discussion many times already.
There is a premium on shooting. NBA teams are desperate for it. Sam is a great shooter. He’s also 6-8 and smart.
There are several Sam-ish guys who played Tuesday: Harris, Green, Connaughton. If Sam can show he shoots like Duncan Robinson, he is taller and at least as good defensively. Etc, etc.
I’d guess he’d be at best a mid- to late-2nd rounder, and very possibly undrafted, but I (and others) have been wrong about MU players and the draft.
We’ll see!
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And by and large, had a high ceiling going into his sophomore year.
A guy like vander or Henry, as known commodities, made the correct move as they had been thoroughly scouted. Not much they can improve upon in one year that would significantly change their draft stock.
Here's a better article about Obi Toppin. Didn't realize he redshirted his first year. https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/dayton-forward-obi-toppin-flyer-nation-back/swdGYPUHyYBrpHbWlNlxtI/ (https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/dayton-forward-obi-toppin-flyer-nation-back/swdGYPUHyYBrpHbWlNlxtI/)
Agree with you about Henry. Disagree about Vander. I think he could have improved his draft stock by getting more time at PG. Same with Garcia. I feel there are areas of his fame he can improve to increase his draft stock. I don't see him getting drafted this year. Not hiring an agent leads me to believe he will be back if he does not get invited to the big boy combine.
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Same with Garcia. I feel there are areas of his fame he can improve to increase his draft stock. I don't see him getting drafted this year. Not hiring an agent leads me to believe he will be back if he does not get invited to the big boy combine.
NIL will definitely help that
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NIL will definitely help that
That is actually a really good point. If you want players to remain in college, let them earn a little more money on the side.
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And no knowledge that players get to return to school on scholarship to get their degrees if they leave early.
not if they sign a contract
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Spoken like a man with no NBA abilities.
have we met?
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not if they sign a contract
No they still do. MU offers lifetime scholarships. If Chones or Wade or Vander or Henry wanted to return they could. Doc obviously already did.
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not if they sign a contract
Yes they can. They no longer have basketball eligibility but Marquette allows all basketball players who end their college careers at Marquette to return and finish their degrees on scholarship. Vander Blue, Henry Ellenson, D.J. Carton are all eligible for this benefit.
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Yes they can. They no longer have basketball eligibility but Marquette allows all basketball players who end their college careers at Marquette to return and finish their degrees on scholarship. Vander Blue, Henry Ellenson, D.J. Carton are all eligible for this benefit.
Todd Mayo?
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Yes they can. They no longer have basketball eligibility but Marquette allows all basketball players who end their college careers at Marquette to return and finish their degrees on scholarship. Vander Blue, Henry Ellenson, D.J. Carton are all eligible for this benefit.
How about Wally? Only if he gets Henry to come back and get his degree?
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How about Wally? Only if he gets Henry to come back and get his degree?
I was under the impression that Wally got his degree, but I wouldn't see why he couldn't.
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I was under the impression that Wally got his degree, but I wouldn't see why he couldn't.
OK, admittedly that was not some of my best material.
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No they still do. MU offers lifetime scholarships. If Chones or Wade or Vander or Henry wanted to return they could. Doc obviously already did.
Jim Chones did come back to earn a degree in Philosophy
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Jim Chones did come back to earn a degree in Philosophy
Nice, so you might say that's another testament to Viper being wrong on that one
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OK, admittedly that was not some of my best material.
I laughed at it.
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Yes they can. They no longer have basketball eligibility but Marquette allows all basketball players who end their college careers at Marquette to return and finish their degrees on scholarship. Vander Blue, Henry Ellenson, D.J. Carton are all eligible for this benefit.
Hopefully, Garcia won't be.
(because he finishes his degree before moving on, of course!)
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Here's a better article about Obi Toppin. Didn't realize he redshirted his first year. https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/dayton-forward-obi-toppin-flyer-nation-back/swdGYPUHyYBrpHbWlNlxtI/ (https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/dayton-forward-obi-toppin-flyer-nation-back/swdGYPUHyYBrpHbWlNlxtI/)
Was an academic nonqualifier.
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No they still do. MU offers lifetime scholarships. If Chones or Wade or Vander or Henry wanted to return they could. Doc obviously already did.
So did JFB
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So did JFB
Didn't know that.
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https://onmilwaukee.com/articles/jimmybutlersimmons
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Didn't know that.
Maurice Lucas as well.
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No they still do. MU offers lifetime scholarships. If Chones or Wade or Vander or Henry wanted to return they could. Doc obviously already did.
Does this apply to graduate school as well. I was listening to a Planet Money Podcast (Amateur Hour at the Supreme Court) where they were discussing benefits for college athletes, and I thought they said schools can offer to pay for graduate school for their players at any university they want?
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Garcia with 19 points and 6 rebounds in the second game today at the G League Elite Camp today. His points were the 4th highest in the two games, fwiw. DJ Carton was on his team as well and had 7 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 turnovers.
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Garcia with 19 points and 6 rebounds in the second game today at the G League Elite Camp today. His points were the 4th highest in the two games, fwiw. DJ Carton was on his team as well and had 7 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 turnovers.
Fantastic I hope they get invited it to the NBA combine .
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I dont think garcia's offense is where the NBA is having reservations
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Garcia finished as the top scorer in the G-League Elite Combine. Guessing that earns him a trip to the real combine.
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Garcia finished as the top scorer in the G-League Elite Combine. Guessing that earns him a trip to the real combine.
If they are only inviting 5 from the camp (arbitrary number), Givony has reported that Duane Washington, AJ Lawson, Aaron Wiggins have been invited. I would assume Mac Mclung will be due to his off the chart measurables. That leaves 1 spot.
Edit: Carlik Jones given an invite per HoopsHype
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If they are only inviting 5 from the camp (arbitrary number), Givony has reported that Duane Washington, AJ Lawson, Aaron Wiggins have been invited. I would assume Mac Mclung will be due to his off the chart measurables. That leaves 1 spot.
Edit: Carlik Jones given an invite per HoopsHype
9 were invited last year, IIRC.
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9 were invited last year, IIRC.
I thought I read somewhere the number would be 5, but as some drop out, I would assume that number will go up. I see Mayer from Baylor is going back to $chool.
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I thought I read somewhere the number would be 5, but as some drop out, I would assume that number will go up. I see Mayer from Baylor is going back to $chool.
I wouldnt be surprised if it was 5. Just really have no idea from my end.
Right now from watching the games (and the already confirmed people), I'd say this is who I'd invite:
Already invited
Duane Washington
AJ Lawson
Aaron Wiggins
Carlik Jones
Who Else I'd invite
Marcus Carr
Mac McClung
RJ Nembhardt
Dawson Garcia
We'll see how it goes.
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https://twitter.com/nbagleague/status/1407360268481536004
Based off the tweet, seems like only those 4 got the invite.
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I wouldnt be surprised if it was 5. Just really have no idea from my end.
Right now from watching the games (and the already confirmed people), I'd say this is who I'd invite:
Already invited
Duane Washington
AJ Lawson
Aaron Wiggins
Carlik Jones
Who Else I'd invite
Marcus Carr
Mac McClung
RJ Nembhardt
Dawson Garcia
We'll see how it goes.
Maybe its just me but is feels done...
I dont know if Dawson or DJ get the invite, Garcia played great on offense and was the leading scorer of the event, but his team went 0-2.
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On a side note, this seems odd:
Adrian Wojnarowski: The NBA is forbidding team executives from attending agent pro days to evaluate prospective draftees — unless the pro days are conducted as part of the Chicago pre-draft combine in June, per memo shared with teams today.
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Maybe its just me but is feels done...
I dont know if Dawson or DJ get the invite, Garcia played great on offense and was the leading scorer of the event, but his team went 0-2.
Dawson had a hard time inside when he was going up against Hunter Dickinson. Like, got manhandled. I would imagine some of the feedback is "you gotta get stronger" which comes with a year of maturity.
Out of curiosity, "it feels done" means what exactly? Like Dawson is gone? Or that the list is complete?
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Dawson had a hard time inside when he was going up against Hunter Dickinson. Like, got manhandled. I would imagine some of the feedback is "you gotta get stronger" which comes with a year of maturity.
Out of curiosity, "it feels done" means what exactly? Like Dawson is gone? Or that the list is complete?
The list, its in the mid 70s already
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https://twitter.com/BenSteeleMJS/status/1407366303086694408 (https://twitter.com/BenSteeleMJS/status/1407366303086694408)
No NBA Combine invite for Garcia, which seems a little head-scratching. #mubb
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Honestly surprised. Thought he did enough to snag an invite. Guess we will hear something sooner rather than later
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Honestly surprised. Thought he did enough to snag an invite. Guess we will hear something sooner rather than later
Agree. I think the interior strength concerns were evident, but he played well on P&R and had some nice shots. A little lost on defense, but some of that just goes to playing with guys you've never played with before and not getting the right rotations. Still thought he did enough for rd 2 of combines.
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He’s just not the defender he needs to be…yet. Shaka can help
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I always root for the athletes, so I'm bummed for Dawson.
Selfishly, of course, I'd love to see him in a Marquette uniform for another season. And heck, even unselfishly I'd like to see it because I think a year of development under Shaka and his assistants could make him a better prospect -- perhaps a significantly better (first round?) prospect.
As an aside, it also would give us a glimpse at how well Shaka can develop borderline-NBA talent into actual NBA talent at Marquette.
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At this stage, Garcia is mostly a below the rim player, even at 6’11. He’s definitely at least a year away from even being close to being on an NBA roster. Whether he thinks he can develop better in the G-League or at MU remains to be seen. In any case, wish him the best.
(Unlearning all of the crap Wojo taught him is also likely a bigger endeavor than he probably anticipated.)
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I always root for the athletes, so I'm bummed for Dawson.
Selfishly, of course, I'd love to see him in a Marquette uniform for another season. And heck, even unselfishly I'd like to see it because I think a year of development under Shaka and his assistants could make him a better prospect -- perhaps a significantly better (first round?) prospect.
As an aside, it also would give us a glimpse at how well Shaka can develop borderline-NBA talent into actual NBA talent at Marquette.
I think a year under Shaka could do a lot for him. And also selfishly make the team a bit more exciting for us. That said, was rooting for a good showing, and it looks like he had it. Hopefully he got really good feedback that will help him work on the areas scouts think he needs to develop further.
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At this stage, Garcia is mostly a below the rim player, even at 6’11. He’s definitely at least a year away from even being close to being on an NBA roster. Whether he thinks he can develop better in the G-League or at MU remains to be seen. In any case, wish him the best.
Never seen a 6’11 guy shoot more layups than Garcia. Seems instinctual to me, not sure how you change that. You’re either a dog or you’re not. Same thing can be said about DJ. There’s a reason Marquette was terrible despite having 2 players in this camp and upper classmen as role players.
I’m excited about the guys Shaka has coming in, they seem to get after it.
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Garcia has been invited to the NBA Combine.
https://twitter.com/dwolfsonkstp/status/1402325978215456772?s=21
Never trust Wolfson
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Is there any good (systematic) analysis out there on what's better for NBA prospects - another year in school or the G-league? Seems there are pros and cons to both.
At any rate, MUBB will be a lot more fun to watch next year if Garcia is back.
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Is there any good (systematic) analysis out there on what's better for NBA prospects - another year in school or the G-league? Seems there are pros and cons to both.
At any rate, MUBB will be a lot more fun to watch next year if Garcia is back.
I doubt that NBA prospects like Garcia give that much weight to those stats if they exist. I'm not expecting him back so I will be very happy if I am wrong. My guess is G League or another school.
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He gowne, aina?
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He gowne, aina?
Well, DG's a "Wojo guy," so that's good, nu? If only we could dump Lewis and Elliott, Shaka would probably win the NCAA title this season!
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Well, DG's a "Wojo guy," so that's good, nu? If only we could dump Lewis and Elliott, Shaka would probably win the NCAA title this season!
Eh, unless Shaka starts resurrecting guys that played for Al, when men were men, I doubt any of them will be good enough to be “Warriors”
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Next man up, hey?
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Well, DG's a "Wojo guy," so that's good, nu? If only we could dump Lewis and Elliott, Shaka would probably win the NCAA title this season!
Na. Lewis was a very un Wojo guy, hope he sticks. Shaka's most pointed critiques were aimed at Greg and his fitness level. Loved hearing the accountability being put out for public consumption.
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Dawson had a hard time inside when he was going up against Hunter Dickinson. Like, got manhandled. I would imagine some of the feedback is "you gotta get stronger" which comes with a year of maturity.
Out of curiosity, "it feels done" means what exactly? Like Dawson is gone? Or that the list is complete?
Dickinson is bigger, stronger, and a clearly better player. A good guy to go up against for scouts to get a read on Dawson. Also, good for Garcia to see where he needs to improve.
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Dickinson is bigger, stronger, and a clearly better player. A good guy to go up against for scouts to get a read on Dawson. Also, good for Garcia to see where he needs to improve.
And Dickinson didn't even get an invite to the NBA Combine. Wondering how far the gap is between Garcia and the NBA at this moment.
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Na. Lewis was a very un Wojo guy, hope he sticks.
Yup. Felt like Justin woulda been gone had there not been a coaching change.
If Justin can get in really good shape, and play with some more urgency this year, he'll be hearing his name called next July.
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Was there some report about Justin not liking Wojo?
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Na. Lewis was a very un Wojo guy, hope he sticks. Shaka's most pointed critiques were aimed at Greg and his fitness level. Loved hearing the accountability being put out for public consumption.
When Lewis committed, his high school coach said Wojo had a very active role in the recruiting process and the Baltimore connection between the two played a big part in Justin's decision.
But hey, people got to have their narratives, I guess.
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Na. Lewis was a very un Wojo guy, hope he sticks. Shaka's most pointed critiques were aimed at Greg and his fitness level. Loved hearing the accountability being put out for public consumption.
Na, he actually criticized everyone's fitness level. IMO prepping an excuse for when we finish dead last BE. You know players lacked fitness and tired.
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Na, he actually criticized everyone's fitness level. IMO prepping an excuse for when we finish dead last BE. You know players lacked fitness and tired.
Yeah. He strongly critiqued Lewis and said he needed to be able to play 40 if he wanted to be a leader. Shaka seems to be good at pushing right buttons
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Na, he actually criticized everyone's fitness level. IMO prepping an excuse for when we finish dead last BE. You know players lacked fitness and tired.
Can't tell if the last part is sarcasm or not.
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Can't tell if the last part is sarcasm or not.
Shots fired at Jose Perez?
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When Lewis committed, his high school coach said Wojo had a very active role in the recruiting process and the Baltimore connection between the two played a big part in Justin's decision.
But hey, people got to have their narratives, I guess.
I'm not saying Lewis didn't like Lewis. And I fully credit Wojo for being a huge reason why Lewis is here. My point is Justin Lewis didn't fit the profile of a Wojo recruit.
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I'm not saying Lewis didn't like Lewis. And I fully credit Wojo for being a huge reason why Lewis is here. My point is Justin Lewis didn't fit the profile of a Wojo recruit.
What's the "profile" of a Wojo recruit?
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I'm not saying Lewis didn't like Lewis. And I fully credit Wojo for being a huge reason why Lewis is here. My point is Justin Lewis didn't fit the profile of a Wojo recruit.
I'd wager Lewis likes Lewis.
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What's the "profile" of a Wojo recruit?
Skinny, weak, & can't play defense. Toughest challenge faced growing up was when Mom forgot to take the crusts off their PB&J.
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I'd wager Lewis likes Lewis.
(https://y.yarn.co/f32519bd-859e-4c95-9430-c584bae547fc_text.gif)
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Skinny, weak, & can't play defense. Toughest challenge faced growing up was when Mom forgot to take the crusts off their PB&J.
There are legit criticisms, and there are dumb ones.
Yours is not legit.
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Skinny, weak, & can't play defense. Toughest challenge faced growing up was when Mom forgot to take the crusts off their PB&J.
Dekker is DienerTime?
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Skinny, weak, & can't play defense. Toughest challenge faced growing up was when Mom forgot to take the crusts off their PB&J.
Describes Theo perfectly.
I get that Wojo certainly had faults, but lets not pretend like he was actively trying to sabotage the program.
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I get that Wojo certainly had faults, but lets not pretend like he was actively trying to sabotage the program.
Liar!
From Day 1, Wojo hated Marquette. Recruits? Please. Not a single other P6 program wanted a single one of his recruits. A bunch of 1-stars and walk-ons, every one of them. Skinny, weak, stoopid, lazy ... and they all hated Marquette, too! (Except two of them, anyway; those two loved Marquette so much they wrote a love letter ... and then they left so they'd remember only the great times.)
No wonder Wojo didn't win a single NCAA tournament game the last 7 years. Marquette-hating loser.
Thank goodness we replaced him with a guy who absolutely killed it in the NCAA tournament the last 7 years!
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I thought DeinerTime was being sarcastic
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Even Woj admitted da teem wuz tired, afta da second game. Blamed Covid, rather dan lookin' in da mirra, hey?
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Even Woj admitted da teem wuz tired, afta da second game. Blamed Covid, rather dan lookin' in da mirra, hey?
You always sound tired.
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Some of us work, rather sitting on our fat asses and collecting unemployment, hey?
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Some of us work, rather sitting on our fat asses and collecting unemployment, hey?
Projecting, hey?
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Liar!
From Day 1, Wojo hated Marquette. Recruits? Please. Not a single other P6 program wanted a single one of his recruits. A bunch of 1-stars and walk-ons, every one of them. Skinny, weak, stoopid, lazy ... and they all hated Marquette, too! (Except two of them, anyway; those two loved Marquette so much they wrote a love letter ... and then they left so they'd remember only the great times.)
No wonder Wojo didn't win a single NCAA tournament game the last 7 years. Marquette-hating loser.
Thank goodness we replaced him with a guy who absolutely killed it in the NCAA tournament the last 7 years!
attempt at sarcasm? You don’t have a job, I’ll assume.
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Liar!
From Day 1, Wojo hated Marquette. Recruits? Please. Not a single other P6 program wanted a single one of his recruits. A bunch of 1-stars and walk-ons, every one of them. Skinny, weak, stoopid, lazy ... and they all hated Marquette, too! (Except two of them, anyway; those two loved Marquette so much they wrote a love letter ... and then they left so they'd remember only the great times.)
No wonder Wojo didn't win a single NCAA tournament game the last 7 years. Marquette-hating loser.
Thank goodness we replaced him with a guy who absolutely killed it in the NCAA tournament the last 7 years!
Still carrying an oversized torch for the guy, hey Mike?
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Still carrying an oversized torch for the guy, hey Mike?
Nah. I'm glad he's gone. Said he shoulda been fired DURING last season, as you know.
But turning every thread into a blame-Wojo-thon ... it just gets tiring. The notion that Lewis would have left "because Wojo" ... just so dopey.
attempt at sarcasm?
Impressive deduction.
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Nah. I'm glad he's gone. Said he shoulda been fired DURING last season, as you know.
But turning every thread into a blame-Wojo-thon ... it just gets tiring. The notion that Lewis would have left "because Wojo" ... just so dopey.
Impressive deduction.
yeah good thing we didn't do that with crean for some 10 years.
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yeah good thing we didn't do that with crean for some 10 years.
Great.
Whereas once we had Chicos defending Tom Crean’s honor in every single thread, now we have MU82 defending Wojo’s honor? And with not so witty efforts at sarcasm?
That’s perfect. I missed those days of incessant chivalrous defense of a past-tense coach.
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Not remotely in the same class.
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Based on all of this, no way I would recommend UW to my kids to play for Gard. Thinking this will/should set their program back for a decade at least.
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Nah. I'm glad he's gone. Said he shoulda been fired DURING last season, as you know.
But turning every thread into a blame-Wojo-thon ... it just gets tiring. The notion that Lewis would have left "because Wojo" ... just so dopey.
LOL. Every time your boy gets blamed for anything you go off on a diatribe accusing Scoopers of calling Wojo the worst coach ever, a child molester and an anti-Semite. It gets tiring, too.
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LOL. Every time your boy gets blamed for anything you go off on a diatribe accusing Scoopers of calling Wojo the worst coach ever, a child molester and an anti-Semite. It gets tiring, too.
Plus, Wojo never shoulda unleashed COVID-19 from that Wuhan lab!
Sorry if that’s another “diatribe” to your virgin ears, Tony!
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LOL. Every time your boy gets blamed for anything you go off on a diatribe accusing Scoopers of calling Wojo the worst coach ever, a child molester and an anti-Semite. It gets tiring, too.
MU82 : Wojo :: Chicos : Crean ::: Lenny : Buzz.
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MU82 : Wojo :: Chicos : Crean ::: Lenny : Buzz.
Done much better than my attempt, but yes. Amazing.
Curious though, who was the knight in shining white armor defending Deane??!!
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Except I don’t think Wojo was a good coach. And I’ve also defended Buzz and Crean. But sure.
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Done much better than my attempt, but yes. Amazing.
Curious though, who was the knight in shining white armor defending Deane??!!
The real challenge is to find a Dukiet defender.
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The real challenge is to find a Dukiet defender.
The man could play a mean Chopsticks!
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MU82 : Wojo :: Chicos : Crean ::: Lenny : Buzz.
One major difference. I was (and still am) an unabashed fan of Buzz. My defense of him wasn’t loaded with caveats. No “TC was an a$$hole, but, but, but… ala Chico or “I called for Wolo’s firing in year 7, but, but, but…ala Mike. Why be a staunch defender of someone you think was a jerk, an incompetent or both?
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One major difference. I was (and still am) an unabashed fan of Buzz. My defense of him wasn’t loaded with caveats. No “TC was an a$$hole, but, but, but… ala Chico or “I called for Wolo’s firing in year 7, but, but, but…ala Mike. Why be a staunch defender of someone you think was a jerk, an incompetent or both?
The thread is about Dawson Garcia and it devolved into another thread about Wojo. It is remarkable how much time is spent discussing any former coach in any given thread, not just Wojo. It’s weird
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The real challenge is to find a Dukiet defender.
Willie warrior is known to slurp him
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Based on all of this, no way I would recommend UW to my kids to play for Gard. Thinking this will/should set their program back for a decade at least.
No shot it sets them back a decade.
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No shot it sets them back a decade.
agreed. Players look like chumps, not Gard.
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The thread is about Dawson Garcia and it devolved into another thread about Wojo. It is remarkable how much time is spent discussing any former coach in any given thread, not just Wojo. It’s weird
Which of course was my point.
Which obviously means I'm a "staunch defender" of a coach I publicly stated 100 times should have been fired.
Sorry for that "diatribe," Unk!
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agreed. Players look like chumps, not Gard.
Eh, not really. It was a private conversation that was thrust into the public eye. A public that will have moved on to the next story by tomorrow. If Gard's team does well this year, it will be largely forgotten. If they struggle, the AD has another reason to fire him.
Long term, it will be used against him for recruiting purposes, but his response is simple. "My players are allowed to speak their minds and I'm willing to listen and change. What you heard on that tape was edited to make the players, the university, and me look bad. I think it's better that our players are able to be open in a team meeting, don't you? That was a private team meeting and someone violated our trust as a team and a family. The type of conversation that you've heard happens across a lot of division one programs, but the difference is that we're able to have an honest conversation like that so that we can all be on the same page."
Pretty simple explanation that would be enough to convince most recruits and their families. Hell, if Doug McDermott can still recruit to Creighton without consequence, Greg Gard shouldn't have any problems getting the players he is used to getting.
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Yeah, recruits and their families are incredibly selfish. They care about them first. Negative recruiting works but by and large they want to hear about them not Nate Ruevers.
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Yeah, recruits and their families are incredibly selfish. They care about them first. Negative recruiting works but by and large they want to hear about them not Nate Ruevers.
Exactly. "My kid is different" is how everyone feels about their kid.
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Exactly. "My kid is different" is how everyone feels about their kid.
Everyone except for me and my kid. We ARE different...and special.
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So…back to Dawson Garcia. Does anyone know what he would stand to make if he chose the G League? I’ve read about Select Contracts at $125k and others at $75k; some say as little as $35k.
Of course Garcia is chasing big dreams with gargantuan money attached to it. But $75k-125k is a lot of money to a 19-yr-old, especially if it holds the promise of getting elevated up the NBA. I’d choose that option if I were him, rather than developing my skills for free and have to take classes, etc.
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Yeah, recruits and their families are incredibly selfish. They care about them first. Negative recruiting works but by and large they want to hear about them not Nate Ruevers.
Just curious...if my kid is getting recruited whose interests should we place ahead of hers?
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So…back to Dawson Garcia. Does anyone know what he would stand to make if he chose the G League? I’ve read about Select Contracts at $125k and others at $75k; some say as little as $35k.
Of course Garcia is chasing big dreams with gargantuan money attached to it. But $75k-125k is a lot of money to a 19-yr-old, especially if it holds the promise of getting elevated up the NBA. I’d choose that option if I were him, rather than developing my skills for free and have to take classes, etc.
The standard G League contract is $35K.
Players invited to be a part of the "G League Select" program - which Dawson has not been and, it's my understanding, cannot be - get contracts worth $500K.
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And I really doubt that some team is going to give him a two-way contract at this point.
It's his life, but returning to college to work in Shaka's system, increasing his strength and quickness on the defensive end, has to look like a decent option at this point right?
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And I really doubt that some team is going to give him a two-way contract at this point.
It's his life, but returning to college to work in Shaka's system, increasing his strength and quickness on the defensive end, has to look like a decent option at this point right?
I would have to think that staying in the G League, working in an NBA style system, increasing strength and quickness on the defensive end, and not being stymied by practice hours rule prevalent in the NCAA, seems like a decent option too? All while making $35K more?
Point is, there are multiple decent options. I would think that returning for a sophomore season and blowing up, might be a better way to secure a first round contract next year, but what do I know. I can see why a player might choose the alternate route.
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What's the deadline for Dawson having to enter the transfer portal again? Isn't it coming up in the next couple of weeks or am I thinking of something else?
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I would have to think that staying in the G League, working in an NBA style system, increasing strength and quickness on the defensive end, and not being stymied by practice hours rule prevalent in the NCAA, seems like a decent option too? All while making $35K more?
Point is, there are multiple decent options. I would think that returning for a sophomore season and blowing up, might be a better way to secure a first round contract next year, but what do I know. I can see why a player might choose the alternate route.
Nevada used to coach in G league. Could be helpful to operate in his offensive system for a year here.
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What's the deadline for Dawson having to enter the transfer portal again? Isn't it coming up in the next couple of weeks or am I thinking of something else?
July 7 is the deadline to withdraw from the draft.
I believe the deadline for the transfer portal is July 1.
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The thread is about Dawson Garcia and it devolved into another thread about Wojo. It is remarkable how much time is spent discussing any former coach in any given thread, not just Wojo. It’s weird
If we're gonna talk former coaches, Rico, what about that bonehead who wouldn't put you in the game in the fourth quarter? Would have been state champions.
No doubt in my mind
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If we're gonna talk former coaches, Rico, what about that bonehead who wouldn't put you in the game in the fourth quarter? Would have been state champions.
No doubt in my mind
Story of my life 😂
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What's the deadline for Dawson having to enter the transfer portal again? Isn't it coming up in the next couple of weeks or am I thinking of something else?
There is no deadline for entering the transfer portal. The deadline for entering the transfer portal AND being immediately eligible for 21-22 is July 1...though I think you could transfer afterwards and try to get a waiver for immediate eligibility. The deadline to withdraw from the NBA Draft is July 7.
So if July 1 comes and goes with no news, it effectively means Dawson is down to going pro or coming back to MU (I really don't see him sitting out and I'm not sure he has a case for a waiver). If July 7 comes and goes with no news, he gowne.
Personally, haven't felt confident about Garcia in awhile.
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I would have to think that staying in the G League, working in an NBA style system, increasing strength and quickness on the defensive end, and not being stymied by practice hours rule prevalent in the NCAA, seems like a decent option too? All while making $35K more?
Point is, there are multiple decent options. I would think that returning for a sophomore season and blowing up, might be a better way to secure a first round contract next year, but what do I know. I can see why a player might choose the alternate route.
$35k is more than zero, but I would imagine his expenses would rise. I don’t think the GLeague team pays for as much as college does.
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Maybe it all depends on the feedback he got, bit I'm starting to think he gowne. Radio silence after not getting the invite makes me feel that way.
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Everyone keeps mentioning the $35K. Average cost at MU after discounts and such are $44,500. The athletes receive many more benefits from nutrition, to tutoring, to physical conditioning and counselling. For 99% of athletes staying in any school is a non-brainer looking at things from a life long perspective. Hopefully Garcia makes the right choice and receives the support of us all.
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Everyone keeps mentioning the $35K. Average cost at MU after discounts and such are $44,500. The athletes receive many more benefits from nutrition, to tutoring, to physical conditioning and counselling. For 99% of athletes staying in any school is a non-brainer looking at things from a life long perspective. Hopefully Garcia makes the right choice and receives the support of us all.
Yes, MU tuition is $44K...but if you don't value a college education it might as well be $0. If you offer me $35K cash or $44.5K worth of paperclips...I'm going to take the cash.
This doesn't mention the reality that playing in the g-league means more time to work on his game than college offers and in Garcia's eyes, may be a better path to an NBA contract than college is...so it may be a better financial decision in the long run.
Hopefully Garcia makes the right choice for him. If that ends up being playing for MU, great.
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I would have to think that staying in the G League, working in an NBA style system, increasing strength and quickness on the defensive end, and not being stymied by practice hours rule prevalent in the NCAA, seems like a decent option too? All while making $35K more?
Point is, there are multiple decent options. I would think that returning for a sophomore season and blowing up, might be a better way to secure a first round contract next year, but what do I know. I can see why a player might choose the alternate route.
This is overhyped. Student athletes are allowed 20 hours a week Countable Athletically Related Activities. Every student athlete is free to work out on their own after that with no coaches present. That includes weight training etc. Each athlete has a specially tailored "voluntary" work out program.
I remember reading about the daily life of a G league player. There's not much more than 20 hours of practice in a week, and even less than that when they have many games in a week. The G league ignite for example, were M-f 8:30-2 which included Covid testing, lunch, weight lifting, drills, and scrimmage. They were free the rest of the day and night.
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Yes, MU tuition is $44K...but if you don't value a college education it might as well be $0. If you offer me $35K cash or $44.5K worth of paperclips...I'm going to take the cash.
This doesn't mention the reality that playing in the g-league means more time to work on his game than college offers and in Garcia's eyes, may be a better path to an NBA contract than college is...so it may be a better financial decision in the long run.
Hopefully Garcia makes the right choice for him. If that ends up being playing for MU, great.
And he can comeback for the tuition scholarship any time he wants, so no matta.
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But in the G league you have a regular audience of NBA-oriented coaches and NBA scouts, and are playing exclusively with NBA-hopefuls. I want Garcia to come back but getting more educated about the G league, it doesn't sound like a bad option at all.
If Garcia goes to the G league, does he get tied up by a team for 2 yrs, so he can't enter the draft? Or would he be draft-eligible after a year?
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But in the G league you have a regular audience of NBA-oriented coaches and NBA scouts, and are playing exclusively with NBA-hopefuls. I want Garcia to come back but getting more educated about the G league, it doesn't sound like a bad option at all.
If Garcia goes to the G league, does he get tied up by a team for 2 yrs, so he can't enter the draft? Or would he be draft-eligible after a year?
https://gleague.nba.com/how-rosters-are-built/ (https://gleague.nba.com/how-rosters-are-built/)
Many types on the G league roster
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https://gleague.nba.com/how-rosters-are-built/ (https://gleague.nba.com/how-rosters-are-built/)
Many types on the G league roster
The article even mentions "Mr. Mad Ant" Ron Howard. There's a blast from the past.
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https://gleague.nba.com/how-rosters-are-built/ (https://gleague.nba.com/how-rosters-are-built/)
Many types on the G league roster
Thanks for the link. That answers one of my questions about whether or not players can withdraw from the draft, play in the G League, and then enter the draft in a future year.
Since the answer is yes, they can, I wonder if we'll see more players withdraw from the draft but instead of returning to college, they join the G League for a year or two before declaring for the draft.
Might be an option for a player like Dawson Garcia.
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Very few athletes come for the scholarships. That's why when they graduate it goes out on press releases.
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Thanks for the link. That answers one of my questions about whether or not players can withdraw from the draft, play in the G League, and then enter the draft in a future year.
Since the answer is yes, they can, I wonder if we'll see more players withdraw from the draft but instead of returning to college, they join the G League for a year or two before declaring for the draft.
Might be an option for a player like Dawson Garcia.
It could be, but wouldn't that eliminate the possibility of the primary reason players go to the G League, i.e. an NBA call up?
It seems the one saving grace of the G League vs earning more in Europe is that it's a more immediate path to an NBA roster. If you take that out of the equation, what's the upside of making $35K while playing in Fort Wayne, Indiana versus $100K in Australia or Greece?
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It could be, but wouldn't that eliminate the possibility of the primary reason players go to the G League, i.e. an NBA call up?
It seems the one saving grace of the G League vs earning more in Europe is that it's a more immediate path to an NBA roster. If you take that out of the equation, what's the upside of making $35K while playing in Fort Wayne, Indiana versus $100K in Australia or Greece?
According to Some (or one), it might be regular audience of NBA-oriented coaches and NBA scouts, and are playing exclusively with NBA-hopefuls.
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$35k is more than zero, but I would imagine his expenses would rise. I don’t think the GLeague team pays for as much as college does.
Dawson would likely be the highest paid player on Marquette in NIL rights. Guessing he'd have fewer expenses & more incoming revenue if he stayed.
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It could be, but wouldn't that eliminate the possibility of the primary reason players go to the G League, i.e. an NBA call up?
It seems the one saving grace of the G League vs earning more in Europe is that it's a more immediate path to an NBA roster. If you take that out of the equation, what's the upside of making $35K while playing in Fort Wayne, Indiana versus $100K in Australia or Greece?
Yeah I don't see much reason to withdraw from the draft but then turn professional anyway. As you said, it keeps you out of the NBA. And your best chance at that point is to be a free agent and determine your best landing spot if there are multiple suitors.
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Yeah I don't see much reason to withdraw from the draft but then turn professional anyway. As you said, it keeps you out of the NBA. And your best chance at that point is to be a free agent and determine your best landing spot if there are multiple suitors.
It would come down to NBA feedback and a player betting on themselves. If they think one more year of development could be enough to become a first round pick, it might be a worthwhile alternative to college.
Maybe you're right and no one ever takes that path, but it's at least an option.
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A couple days ago there was a MJS article on Carton and Garcia. Didn't see it posted here but if anyone wanted information of some kind I bet it's in there
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Didn't want to start a new thread just for this, but Tennessee freshman Keon Johnson recorded a max vertical jump of 48 inches Wednesday to break the NBA Draft Combine record in the drill.
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Didn't want to start a new thread just for this, but Tennessee freshman Keon Johnson recorded a max vertical jump of 48 inches Wednesday to break the NBA Draft Combine record in the drill.
Beating Zac McCall's previous record of 47.75 inches
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Didn't want to start a new thread just for this, but Tennessee freshman Keon Johnson recorded a max vertical jump of 48 inches Wednesday to break the NBA Draft Combine record in the drill.
That's positively Ners-like
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That's positively Ners-like
;D
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Didn't want to start a new thread just for this, but Tennessee freshman Keon Johnson recorded a max vertical jump of 48 inches Wednesday to break the NBA Draft Combine record in the drill.
A 48?? That's gotta be in the highest of all-time? I mean at the NBA combine.....Humpback Whales have a 600 inch vert.. :)
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That's positively Ners-like
Love it, ATL.
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He is entering the portal and keeping all options open
https://twitter.com/dawson23lee/status/1408545606998634497?s=21
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I’m kind of over Dawson Garcia at this point if I’m being honest.
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I’m kind of over Dawson Garcia at this point if I’m being honest.
Agreed. String the program along chasing what he wanted to hear and then enters the portal. Let's move on.
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He is entering the portal and keeping all options open
https://twitter.com/dawson23lee/status/1408545606998634497?s=21
The wording of the Tweet makes it sound like Marquette is his last choice. Just worded like that I think.
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Can’t blame him. Play 1 more season in college I’d want to win too. Isn’t gonna do that at Marquette next season.
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Can’t blame him. Play 1 more season in college I’d want to win too. Isn’t gonna do that at Marquette next season.
Hopefully all our best players won’t think the same way on a yearly basis. We will be a perpetually bad minor league feeder team.
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Can’t blame him. Play 1 more season in college I’d want to win too. Isn’t gonna do that at Marquette next season.
It’s a smart move for Garcia to consider all options. Although, winning in college is definitely lower on his priority list. Just look at his finalists a year ago.
Marquette: no postseason
Memphis: NIT
Indiana: no postseason
Minnesota: no postseason
He’s looking to be a featured player and the only reason he came here was because Wojo pitched him on Ellenson level usage. Not sure that would continue to be the case with Shaka. I’ll predict he either stays here or ends up a gopher.
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He is entering the portal and keeping all options open
https://twitter.com/dawson23lee/status/1408545606998634497?s=21
Minnesota. Ben Johnson has TC AAU ties and hired local AAU guys. They've been working on Garcia since Johnson was hired.
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He is entering the portal and keeping all options open
https://twitter.com/dawson23lee/status/1408545606998634497?s=21
Ugh. But Shaka has a solid track record of developing bigs. Maybe Dawson comes back.
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Next dude up, hey?
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He is entering the portal and keeping all options open
https://twitter.com/dawson23lee/status/1408545606998634497?s=21
He gone. Shame. If he was willing to put in the work here he'd be a lotto.
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He's looking for a better golden opportunity
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It’s a smart move for Garcia to consider all options. Although, winning in college is definitely lower on his priority list. Just look at his finalists a year ago.
Marquette: no postseason
Memphis: NIT
Indiana: no postseason
Minnesota: no postseason
He’s looking to be a featured player and the only reason he came here was because Wojo pitched him on Ellenson level usage. Not sure that would continue to be the case with Shaka. I’ll predict he either stays here or ends up a gopher.
Marquette was a lock for the 2020 NCAA Tournament - 97 out of 97 in Bracket Mateix, with the average seed being a 9.
So while you’re technically correct, the same “no postseason” could have been said about Gonzaga, Kansas, Baylor, Duke, Nova, Dayton, Michigan State, Kentucky and, well, the entire top 50 that year.
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I’m kind of over Dawson Garcia at this point if I’m being honest.
It’s fine for you and others to be “over” Garcia, and DJ too, for that matter. You feel what you feel, and you’re entitled to that.
But IMHO we’d have been an NCAA tourney team with them being coached by Shaka and supported by an improved group around them, and we probably have little chance without them.
And that seems a little bit of an odd stance given how much people complain about us having no postseason success the last 8 years.
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He gone. Shame. If he was willing to put in the work here he'd be a lotto.
Really? He can’t do that anywhere else?
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Our record last year was 13-14. It is right in our face every time one goes to this website.
We have a new coach with an exciting vision, and what appears to be some players with commentary skills. Looking forward to the season with the guys who want to buy into our Coaches vision for MU.
There are going to be some players who have explored the NBA Process and may want to come to our program ,as well as players who are waiting to see how the NBA process plays out for others , before they make their own transfer decisions. Those players are going to be choosing a school based on what they feel is best for them. Still plenty of time to finish out our roster with some more quality players as MU has a lot to offer right now.
I think with the new transfer rules, we literally have to be looking at rosters one year at a time. We had some players return , some transfer, some go pro and some entering the portal . Overall I like where MU is at, and with a few key pickups we could be in a very good position.
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Time to dig out and put on the 70s era Movin On jeans.
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Really? He can’t do that anywhere else?
He can, but I think leaving (which I expect) is a particularly dumb move. If he wants to go to the NBA, Shaka will have sent 6 bigs to the league since 2017 after this draft. Dawson was the leading G League combine scorer and didn't get a NBA Combine invite, which means he needs to work his defense, which is Shaka's specialty. At Marquette, he'll be the offensive focal point, where he's likely to look he'll just be another option. He will be the centerpiece of NIL options here, which also won't likely be the case elsewhere.
Dawson played for a coach that has done poorly advancing his players to the NBA and sucked at defense. When Shaka was hired, DG basically won the lottery in terms of matching the coach with the ability to develop his weaknesses. And he's going to walk away from that.
I don't think anywhere he is likely to go is a better launching pad than here. Not the blue bloods like Kentucky or UNC where he's likely to end up, and definitely not Minnesota where he would join maybe the worst high major team in the country.
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He can, but I think leaving (which I expect) is a particularly dumb move. If he wants to go to the NBA, Shaka will have sent 6 bigs to the league since 2017 after this draft. Dawson was the leading G League combine scorer and didn't get a NBA Combine invite, which means he needs to work his defense, which is Shaka's specialty. At Marquette, he'll be the offensive focal point, where he's likely to look he'll just be another option. He will be the centerpiece of NIL options here, which also won't likely be the case elsewhere.
Dawson played for a coach that has done poorly advancing his players to the NBA and sucked at defense. When Shaka was hired, DG basically won the lottery in terms of matching the coach with the ability to develop his weaknesses. And he's going to walk away from that.
I don't think anywhere he is likely to go is a better launching pad than here. Not the blue bloods like Kentucky or UNC where he's likely to end up, and definitely not Minnesota where he would join maybe the worst high major team in the country.
If you excel at a big school, you put yourself in a better position for the next level.
I’d love for him to stay here, but it doesn’t really elevate his profile if he has a similar season here as he did last year and MU is a mediocre team.
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He can, but I think leaving (which I expect) is a particularly dumb move. If he wants to go to the NBA, Shaka will have sent 6 bigs to the league since 2017 after this draft. Dawson was the leading G League combine scorer and didn't get a NBA Combine invite, which means he needs to work his defense, which is Shaka's specialty. At Marquette, he'll be the offensive focal point, where he's likely to look he'll just be another option. He will be the centerpiece of NIL options here, which also won't likely be the case elsewhere.
Dawson played for a coach that has done poorly advancing his players to the NBA and sucked at defense. When Shaka was hired, DG basically won the lottery in terms of matching the coach with the ability to develop his weaknesses. And he's going to walk away from that.
I don't think anywhere he is likely to go is a better launching pad than here. Not the blue bloods like Kentucky or UNC where he's likely to end up, and definitely not Minnesota where he would join maybe the worst high major team in the country.
It is his decision and his choice, but I also concur his plan, if you call it that, was not particularly well thought out.
Dawson was graded a 2nd Round pick, at best, when he declared. Yes, you can get paid a year earlier, but if you find yourself in a spot where you will not have ability to develop (and eventually cash in at the NBA level) you can be stuck in purgatory and then out of the league.
If he does transfer to another school now, which I think it is clear he will now, you made the decision after many rosters have become filled and your options are much more limited than what it was just several weeks ago. Again, not well thought out.
If he does end up at Minnesota, who is too rebuilding, is playing for an unproven head coach really put you in better position to elevate your game to make yourself more attractive for the NBA. Possibly, but unlikely.
Playing for a proven head coach with bigs and defense, and leading the team to a better record than the year before, would, IMO, immensely helped his development much more. Oh well, his decision, his choice.
I said it when Shaka was hired, but for the benefit of the long-term development of the program, it remains in the best interest to have as many holdovers, leftovers, etc. to pursue other opportunities as possible. Dawson would have been one of our best players, no doubt. But his focus would be on the NBA next year. I'd imagine that would negatively affect the culture Shaka is already hard at work instilling.
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It’s fine for you and others to be “over” Garcia, and DJ too, for that matter. You feel what you feel, and you’re entitled to that.
But IMHO we’d have been an NCAA tourney team with them being coached by Shaka and supported by an improved group around them, and we probably have little chance without them.
And that seems a little bit of an odd stance given how much people complain about us having no postseason success the last 8 years.
But if they don’t want to be at MU, see ya later. I’ll care about guys who want to be part of what Shaka is building.
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Uck 'em Fay, aina?
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Al didn’t recruit him. Not a loss
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Next dude up, hey?
Shaka fail, hey?
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But if they don’t want to be at MU, see ya later. I’ll care about guys who want to be part of what Shaka is building.
Shaka fail #fireshaka just getting ahead. Scoop within a year.
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We sucked last year, bottom feeders in a very weak version of the Big East. While it would be nice to see if DJ and Garcia could tap their potential under Shaka, everyone on that team was at best a mixed bag. All were expendable. Would we have a better record next year if Carton and Garcia (and even John, Cain and McEwen) were part of the roster? You bet. But IMO a year of pain to establish a culture with your own guys is worth it. My two favorite players from last years team, the two I’d most want to go to war with - Lewis and Elliot - returned. Whether that’s a coincidence or a good omen I don’t know. But I’m hoping (and thinking) it’s the latter.
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Uck 'em Fay, aina?
Since when did you start speaking Pig Latin ?😎
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We sucked last year, bottom feeders in a very weak version of the Big East. While it would be nice to see if DJ and Garcia could tap their potential under Shaka, everyone on that team was at best a mixed bag. All were expendable. Would we have a better record next year if Carton and Garcia (and even John, Cain and McEwen) were part of the roster? You bet. But IMO a year of pain to establish a culture with your own guys is worth it. My two favorite players from last years team, the two I’d most want to go to war with - Lewis and Elliot - returned. Whether that’s a coincidence or a good omen I don’t know. But I’m hoping (and thinking) it’s the latter.
While I would have loved to see Garcia in a MU uniform next year based on his skill set and size I agree with your overall sentiment about starting fresh. I also am very pleased that Lewis and Elliot are the two that are returning. I have always loved Elliott’s attitude and Lewis looks like he can be the entire package of attitude, toughness and athleticism that we need going forward to compete at a high level in the big east.
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If you excel at a big school, you put yourself in a better position for the next level.
I’d love for him to stay here, but it doesn’t really elevate his profile if he has a similar season here as he did last year and MU is a mediocre team.
NBA scouts have eyes on these kids when they're in high school and certainly every NBA org is well aware of who Garcia is. If he thinks there's a coach and system that is better suited to get him to the NBA, then go for it. But the usage he'll likely see and the coach's track record of developing NBA talent is pretty good at MU.
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But if they don’t want to be at MU, see ya later. I’ll care about guys who want to be part of what Shaka is building.
What is he building?
It's not like the talent he brought in is off-the-charts strong.
And Garcia is probably more talented than anyone Shaka got to come to MU.
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This is a no f’ckn crap situation
Dawson leaving was predictable AF
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What is he building?
It's not like the talent he brought in is off-the-charts strong.
And Garcia is probably more talented than anyone Shaka got to come to MU.
::)
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Garcia on the team next year is better than not, full stop. That said, there are a million reasons why he might not want to come back some of which we might know, some of which we might speculate, and some of which we know nothing about. He may not make the "best" or "right" choice, but at 19 I know I didn't always make the best or right choice either.
I'll cheer him on if he's on our team and wish him well if he's not. Anything Shaka is able to accomplish this year, with or without Garcia, is gravy.
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Mr. Garcia should transfer to Princeton.
You can't build a program with players who have one foot out the door.
How many years do you guys give the new coach?
Two, three, four?
Why is Marquette always held hostage?
Hostage by the parents, players, the league.
WWB do?
What would Buzz do?
WWAD?
What would Al do?
WWMD.
What will Marquette do?
Not much.
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If you excel at a big school, you put yourself in a better position for the next level.
I’d love for him to stay here, but it doesn’t really elevate his profile if he has a similar season here as he did last year and MU is a mediocre team.
In the 2020 lottery, players came from Georgia, Memphis, Florida State, Auburn, USC, Dayton, Maryland, Iowa State, Alabama, and Vanderbilt. In 2021 mocks, they look to be coming from Oklahoma State, USC, Gonzaga, Florida State, Baylor, UConn, Michigan, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Oregon. Now some of those have been more successful in the past 7 years, but I'm not sure most, or even many, would be considered "bigger" than we are.
You don't need to play at Duke or Kentucky. As the list shows, you don't even need to play at a P6.
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He's looking for a better golden opportunity
Probably will Gopher it
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What is he building?
It's not like the talent he brought in is off-the-charts strong.
And Garcia is probably more talented than anyone Shaka got to come to MU.
Well that was a nice honeymoon. Lasted all of three months and zero games.
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Best of luck to you Mr. Garcia. I wish you success wherever you go (unless that team plays MU).
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Probably will Gopher it
Having lived in the Twin Cities for 11 years, the spotlight sports in this order are hockey, hockey and hockey.
But there is something to be said about playing close to home.
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Well that was a nice honeymoon. Lasted all of three months and zero games.
Perhaps, but he's not wrong.
Losing a player like Garcia to the pros would be disappointing, but completely understandable and in no way a reflection on the coaching staff.
Losing him to some other school - Minnesota, no less - after having a three-month window to persuade him that MU is where he should be if he stays in college, that hurts.
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Perhaps, but he's not wrong.
Losing a player like Garcia to the pros would be disappointing, but completely understandable and in no way a reflection on the coaching staff.
Losing him to some other school - Minnesota, no less - after having a three-month window to persuade him that MU is where he should be if he stays in college, that hurts.
Yup. Those dismissing him leaving are doing so with rose-colored anti-Wojo bias. Garcia is a good player. I prefer as many good players as possible on the roster. It’s interesting that losing the Hausers was an unforgivable sin but we’re supposed to shrug our shoulders about Garcia.
If he isn’t sure about Shaka, then it’s probably best for him to explore his options. And maybe Shaka is fine with him moving on. All of these things can be true but let’s not act like the kid isn’t a talented basketball player.
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In the 2020 lottery, players came from Georgia, Memphis, Florida State, Auburn, USC, Dayton, Maryland, Iowa State, Alabama, and Vanderbilt. In 2021 mocks, they look to be coming from Oklahoma State, USC, Gonzaga, Florida State, Baylor, UConn, Michigan, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Oregon. Now some of those have been more successful in the past 7 years, but I'm not sure most, or even many, would be considered "bigger" than we are.
You don't need to play at Duke or Kentucky. As the list shows, you don't even need to play at a P6.
No but it elevates your national profile playing for a team that wins games and is playing in the tournament. Minnesota doesn’t make sense but UNC absolutely does.
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New question: does Shaka continue to hold a scholarship open for DG? I believe we have two open at present. If one is Morsell, that still leaves one.
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Yup. Those dismissing him leaving are doing so with rose-colored anti-Wojo bias. Garcia is a good player. I prefer as many good players as possible on the roster. It’s interesting that losing the Hausers was an unforgivable sin but we’re supposed to shrug our shoulders about Garcia.
If he isn’t sure about Shaka, then it’s probably best for him to explore his options. And maybe Shaka is fine with him moving on. All of these things can be true but let’s not act like the kid isn’t a talented basketball player.
Spot-effen-on.
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Perhaps, but he's not wrong.
Losing a player like Garcia to the pros would be disappointing, but completely understandable and in no way a reflection on the coaching staff.
Losing him to some other school - Minnesota, no less - after having a three-month window to persuade him that MU is where he should be if he stays in college, that hurts.
Unless you determine that Dawson is sort of like Joey.
I don’t get why anyone is surprised and even disappointed? He was so detached for the last 3 months. He wasn’t going to war every day with Todd Smith. He didn’t buy into Shaka, probably bc Shaka means late nights, early mornings and carrying your brother the whole time.
Let’s look up in March and see who made the right call. My money is with Smart.
It’s a new day.
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Yup. Those dismissing him leaving are doing so with rose-colored anti-Wojo bias. Garcia is a good player. I prefer as many good players as possible on the roster. It’s interesting that losing the Hausers was an unforgivable sin but we’re supposed to shrug our shoulders about Garcia.
If he isn’t sure about Shaka, then it’s probably best for him to explore his options. And maybe Shaka is fine with him moving on. All of these things can be true but let’s not act like the kid isn’t a talented basketball player.
Regardless of coach, if a player doesn't want to be here, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any fan that would prefer having player that actually wants to be here. Granted, the Hauser situation was truly a unique breaking point for the Wojo era. Many on here came to that realization either in the present or in retrospective after Wojo was dismissed.
Look, there are now a number of players that have transferred out of MU, seeking greener pastures, and the harsh reality is that it rarely ends up better for the player in question. I think there are obviously notable exceptions (like Deonte at ISU, Sam at Virginia, etc.). However, from a production standpoint, many players do not perform as well as they did here. The indifference to losing a player like Garcia, in theory, is that A) it opens up minutes for one of the newbies, B) it is likely that DG doesn't take a huge leap at whatever program he attends next and C) the fan base wants kids that actually want to be at MU.
It's not an anti-Wojo bias. It's support and fandom for the long-term development of Shaka's new program.
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Agreed. String the program along chasing what he wanted to hear and then enters the portal. Let's move on.
Absolutely. Tired of this dance what will he do. Goodbye already. Over three months since Shaka being hired and evaluating his draft chances and everything remains on the table, with a transfer added to the mix is the big news now?!?! For crying out loud, decide. You were a 13 and 6 guy with I think three double double games last year. I’ve preferred him back, but at this point, screw it. See ya.
I’m rooting for Shaka and the 11 guys committed to wearing blue and gold next season and are mentally and physically preparing to be Warriors.
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Perhaps, but he's not wrong.
Losing a player like Garcia to the pros would be disappointing, but completely understandable and in no way a reflection on the coaching staff.
Losing him to some other school - Minnesota, no less - after having a three-month window to persuade him that MU is where he should be if he stays in college, that hurts.
I’m not dismissing his loss. I’m dismissing that this has anything to do with Shaka’s ability as a coach. Players transferring with a new coach is par for the course.
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New question: does Shaka continue to hold a scholarship open for DG? I believe we have two open at present. If one is Morsell, that still leaves one.
Nah, we can do better. Adios, hey?
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I doubt that Garcia did much talking with Shaka about MU while he was concentrating on the NBA, and MU's roster was in transition. Now that the NBA hasn't happened, he's giving himself a chance to listen to other coaches as well as Shaka while he decides. Shaka can talk to him knowing pretty much what next year's roster looks like and where he fits in with it.
I think its premature to consider Garcia in or out.
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Unless you determine that Dawson is sort of like Joey.
What does this even mean?
First, we never saw an iota of pouting from Dawson the way we did from Joey (and Dawson had FAR more reason to pout).
Second, the last coach got crucified for losing Joey, so ...
I don’t get why anyone is surprised and even disappointed? He was so detached for the last 3 months. He wasn’t going to war every day with Todd Smith. He didn’t buy into Shaka, probably bc Shaka means late nights, early mornings and carrying your brother the whole time.
Speaking of detached, this is detached from reality.
Dawson wasn't "detached" the last three months. He was preparing for, and going through, the NBA process. The same as every other underclassman going through the process. You don't do that on campus "going to war with" the strength coach and "carrying your brother," whatever that's supposed to mean.
Let’s look up in March and see who made the right call. My money is with Smart.
What call are you talking about? Are you under the impression that Shaka made a call here? That he doesn't want Dawson back?
Don't be delusional, Lens. This is Badger-level "we didn't want him anyway" thinking. Marquette very much wants Dawson back.
Look, losing Dawson won't be much, or any, of a factor in how we judge Shaka's time at Marquette. But to act as if losing him to another school at this point is meaningless is strapping on those Shaka-colored glasses so tight it's messing with your ability to think rationally.
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Unless you determine that Dawson is sort of like Joey.
I don’t get why anyone is surprised and even disappointed? He was so detached for the last 3 months. He wasn’t going to war every day with Todd Smith. He didn’t buy into Shaka, probably bc Shaka means late nights, early mornings and carrying your brother the whole time.
Let’s look up in March and see who made the right call. My money is with Smart.
It’s a new day.
Lens,
There is no middle ground anymore. You are either far left or far right in everything. The far right MU fans were disgusted with Wojo and that irritated the far left. Now the far left is getting their jabs in on anything negative they perceive about Shaka (most of it just to annoy the fair right just as they were with constant jabs at Wojo).
The middle just has to put up with the BS and continue rooting for whoever the current MU coach is because that is good for everyone.
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If Garcia goes to Minnesota, the number one reason is to be close to home. After a year being holed up in isolation, I totally get why Dawson would want to be close to that family support.
Let's remember these players are also human beings. Good luck Dawson.
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If Dawson stays and works within the new coach's system then we are fans.
If Dawson stays and is a cancer then we are not fans.
If Dawson transfers out we will forget him.
Sincere question: Does anyone really care how a player does once he transfers out to another school?
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If Dawson stays and works within the new coach's system then we are fans.
If Dawson stays and is a cancer then we are not fans.
If Dawson transfers out we will forget him.
Sincere question: Does anyone really care how a player does once he transfers out to another school?
Have you seen the hundreds of posts about Burton and the Hausers?
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Sincere question: Does anyone really care how a player does once he transfers out to another school?
Have you not seen the 21-page Hauser brothers thread?
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I doubt that Garcia did much talking with Shaka about MU while he was concentrating on the NBA, and MU's roster was in transition. Now that the NBA hasn't happened, he's giving himself a chance to listen to other coaches as well as Shaka while he decides. Shaka can talk to him knowing pretty much what next year's roster looks like and where he fits in with it.
I think its premature to consider Garcia in or out.
This is completely fair and accurate. If Shaka and staff are able to reel Dawson back in, then it's a job well done.
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Nah, we can do better. Adios, hey?
Let me know when he doesn’t get the green weenie on someone better than Garcia
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If Garcia goes to Minnesota, the number one reason is to be close to home. After a year being holed up in isolation, I totally get why Dawson would want to be close to that family support.
Let's remember these players are also human beings. Good luck Dawson.
Yeah, I’d get that too. But three effing months and counting to determine between his home state, other schools, MU, and the draft?!
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Lens,
There is no middle ground anymore. You are either far left or far right in everything. The far right MU fans were disgusted with Wojo and that irritated the far left. Now the far left is getting their jabs in on anything negative they perceive about Shaka (most of it just to annoy the fair right just as they were with constant jabs at Wojo).
The middle just has to put up with the BS and continue rooting for whoever the current MU coach is because that is good for everyone.
You're being silly. This has nothing to do with Wojo.
For three months, no college staff has had better (and in theory, exclusive) access to speak with Dawson about his future should be decide to return to school. And the fact that Dawson didn't enter the portal from day one shows that he was never dead-set on leaving MU.
If despite that Dawson decides to play college ball elsewhere, it's a loss for the staff. It's not the end of the world. It's not Hausershima. It's not what Shaka's tenure will be judged by. But it's a loss.
Why is that even controversial? It's common sense.
And trying to spin it as "Dawson is just another Joey" or "Shaka made the call" is ridiculous.
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Yup. Those dismissing him leaving are doing so with rose-colored anti-Wojo bias. Garcia is a good player. I prefer as many good players as possible on the roster. It’s interesting that losing the Hausers was an unforgivable sin but we’re supposed to shrug our shoulders about Garcia.
If he isn’t sure about Shaka, then it’s probably best for him to explore his options. And maybe Shaka is fine with him moving on. All of these things can be true but let’s not act like the kid isn’t a talented basketball player.
Big difference is the Hausers were there. Dawson hasn't been on campus since Shaka took over.
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If Garcia goes to Minnesota, the number one reason is to be close to home. After a year being holed up in isolation, I totally get why Dawson would want to be close to that family support.
Let's remember these players are also human beings. Good luck Dawson.
The being in isolation thing is huge. I'm not saying the basketball players usually integrate into the larger campus community often but being in isolation all year would've taken away literally any campus community connections or fun game day memories. For his freshman year MU's very interchangeable
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Have you not seen the 21-page Hauser brothers thread?
Who are the "Hauser brothers?" Is that a brand of cough drops or something?
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Sam Hauser left a team that had been too 10 and was preseason top 5 where he would have been the #2 option in an offense only program to play for the ultimate team first / defense first coach in Tony Bennett. If you want to equate that to Dawson Garcia, go ahead, I’ve gotta program to rebuild. I want dudes who are on board.
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Sam Hauser left a team that had been too 10 and was preseason top 5 to play for the ultimate team first coach in Tony Bennett. If you want to equate that to Dawson Garcia, go ahead, I’ve gotta program to rebuild. I want dudes who are on board.
So, you’ll take Dawson if he comes back then?
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So, you’ll take Dawson if he comes back then?
His 3 months away gives me pause.
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His 3 months away gives me pause.
Even if Shaka welcomes him back with open arms? This is why this thread is so silly.
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Shaka is saying all the right things publicly, meanwhile his team is grinding their tails off on N 12th.
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The Mods should remove the "Marquette 13-14" from the banner.
I cannot help but think that Dawson Garcia first cringes then burns with shame every time he comes to Scoop and is given such a hateful reminder of the ignominious end to The Floor Slapper Era.
It's a new day for Marquette Basketball. Let's purge the stains of dishonor from a failed regime.
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Big difference is the Hausers were there. Dawson hasn't been on campus since Shaka took over.
Is this a fact? I heard from someone who works at MU that he registered for summer classes and was seen on campus with backpack in tow (a few weeks ago)
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Is this a fact? I heard from someone who works at MU that he registered for summer classes and was seen on campus with backpack in tow (a few weeks ago)
I’m pretty sure this is not the case.
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Let me know when he doesn’t get the green weenie on someone better than Garcia
I'm not begging any 18 yo kid to accept a $200-250k free ride and all the perks that go with it including being BMOC. Like I said before, uck 'em, fay, hey?
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Would be very surprised if he ends up back with MU. Also don’t think he’ll stay in the draft. He’ll pick another school and bolt to NBA next year seems most likely scenario.
He wants to move on, fine and good luck. Just stop playing with MU already. So tired of today’s athletes and their bulls*** will I or won’t I game and stringing everyone along ad nauseam.
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I’m pretty sure this is not the case.
Fair enough. I had heard that a couple weeks ago, so that's why I was asking.
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Would be very surprised if he ends up back with MU. Also don’t think he’ll stay in the draft. He’ll pick another school and bolt to NBA next year seems most likely scenario.
He wants to move on, fine and good luck. Just stop playing with MU already. So tired of today’s athletes and their bulls*** will I or won’t I game and stringing everyone along ad nauseam.
Don’t let it sweat you. Shaka knows what’s up. His team is in the gym.
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Lens,
There is no middle ground anymore. You are either far left or far right in everything. The far right MU fans were disgusted with Wojo and that irritated the far left. Now the far left is getting their jabs in on anything negative they perceive about Shaka (most of it just to annoy the fair right just as they were with constant jabs at Wojo).
The middle just has to put up with the BS and continue rooting for whoever the current MU coach is because that is good for everyone.
I think it has to do with proving to everyone they are right. The big reason to stick with Wojo was to keep the core roster together. Though we can't see whether Wojo would have been able to do that, it appears that Shaka was not able to keep 2/3s of that together and lost arguably the best player in the incoming class. This proves to this group that they were "right."
On the flip side, Shaka has brought in a good amount of talent and is a more established coach. If he wins quick, the results above no matta and the other side will say they were "right". It if takes 3-5 years to rebuild, then the group above will say "they were right."
What matters is that Shaka is our coach and we all want MU to win so it doesn't matta who was "right".
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I think it has to do with proving to everyone they are right. The big reason to stick with Wojo was to keep the core roster together. Though we can't see whether Wojo would have been able to do that, it appears that Shaka was not able to keep 2/3s of that together and lost arguably the best player in the incoming class. This proves to this group that they were "right."
On the flip side, Shaka has brought in a good amount of talent and is a more established coach. If he wins quick, the results above no matta and the other side will say they were "right". It if takes 3-5 years to rebuild, then the group above will say "they were right."
What matters is that Shaka is our coach and we all want MU to win so it doesn't matta who was "right".
Correct
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It frightens me to imagine what a Wojo-led team would have been next year, especially without Dawson or DJ returning.
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It frightens me to imagine what a Wojo-led team would have been next year, especially without Dawson or DJ returning.
And apparently Lewis? Would've been painful.
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It frightens me to imagine what a Wojo-led team would have been next year, especially without Dawson or DJ returning.
This is nothing to be frightened over or to pray about, hey?
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I think it has to do with proving to everyone they are right. The big reason to stick with Wojo was to keep the core roster together. Though we can't see whether Wojo would have been able to do that, it appears that Shaka was not able to keep 2/3s of that together and lost arguably the best player in the incoming class. This proves to this group that they were "right."
On the flip side, Shaka has brought in a good amount of talent and is a more established coach. If he wins quick, the results above no matta and the other side will say they were "right". It if takes 3-5 years to rebuild, then the group above will say "they were right."
What matters is that Shaka is our coach and we all want MU to win so it doesn't matta who was "right".
I don't know who you're including here, but I was 100% on board with Wojo being fired. And if Dawson were to have entered the transfer portal shortly thereafter, or decides to turn pro, that wouldn't be at all on Shaka & Co.
But if your best returning player chooses another school, after three months of MU being the only program allowed to communicate with him, and after him saying repeatedly that he's considering a return to MU, that's an 'L.' Just as Dawson returning to MU would be a 'W.'
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I don't know who you're including here, but I was 100% on board with Wojo being fired. And if Dawson were to have entered the transfer portal shortly thereafter, or decides to turn pro, that wouldn't be at all on Shaka & Co.
But if your best returning player chooses another school, after three months of MU being the only program allowed to communicate with him, and after him saying repeatedly that he's considering a return to MU, that's an 'L.' Just as Dawson returning to MU would be a 'W.'
Given a coaching change I don't think it's a big "L" maybe him and Shaka don't mesh or maybe Shaka says "my vision for you is the same as when you were in HS". If it was Wojo trying to get his recruit back it's an L for sure but coaching change makes it different 3 months or no IMO
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You're being silly. This has nothing to do with Wojo.
For three months, no college staff has had better (and in theory, exclusive) access to speak with Dawson about his future should be decide to return to school. And the fact that Dawson didn't enter the portal from day one shows that he was never dead-set on leaving MU.
If despite that Dawson decides to play college ball elsewhere, it's a loss for the staff. It's not the end of the world. It's not Hausershima. It's not what Shaka's tenure will be judged by. But it's a loss.
Why is that even controversial? It's common sense.
And trying to spin it as "Dawson is just another Joey" or "Shaka made the call" is ridiculous.
I think losing Garcia is one point on a big line that we don’t know is going up or down yet. You are being silly if you can’t see the jabs people are taking at each other, mostly just to be douche bags.
I agree it would be in the negative column though. I just don’t think it’s worth rubbing peoples faces in it before a game is even played. Garcia had a foot out the door already. A coaching change occurred and he has no loyalty to that coach. I don’t think it says anything even minor about Shaka.
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Given a coaching change I don't think it's a big "L" maybe him and Shaka don't mesh or maybe Shaka says "my vision for you is the same as when you were in HS". If it was Wojo trying to get his recruit back it's an L for sure but coaching change makes it different 3 months or no IMO
You'll note I didn't use the phrase "Big L" and have repeatedly said that this won't be a factor in how we ultimately judge Shaka.
That said, if Shaka and Dawson had a different vision, why did Dawson wait so long to put his name in the portal? It would seem those conversations would have been had months ago. And why is he still considering a return to MU if he and Shaka don't share a vision?
I think any effort to spin Garcia leaving as something Shaka wants (or "his call", as someone said) is very wishful thinking. Shaka wants Dawson back, for obvious reasons.
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He never said he’d return to MU, he gave a very luke warm nod towards MU in his announcement.
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If the knock on Dawson is his lack of defensive with respect to the NBA, perhaps he would want to play for a defensive minded coach?
He can go somewhere else and be highlighted offensively and be right back where he is right now.
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In terms of wins and losses, Carton and Garcia staying would have been the best-case scenario. It's silly to argue otherwise.
DJ seemed to like Shaka but just wanted to be done with college. Disappointing but hard to cast any blame on Shaka in this case.
As for Garcia, it would be great if he came back. He would probably be our best player, it would be fun to watch him continue to develop under Shaka, and we would be a better team. If he transfers, so be it. Different situation than DJ but still hard to see it as a poor reflection on Shaka considering how common transfer out are during a coaching change.
If he does transfer, as seems more likely now, the focus shifts even further away from our record and to development. How much better can the team get over the course of the season? Can these guys develop enough through this season and the next offseason to be a tourney team in 22-23?
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If you think Dawson has been stringing Smart along for three months, you're mistaken. They've been talking and know exactly where things stand. If Dawson wants to buy into the culture Shaka is building, he will be welcomed with open arms. If his camp has a different vision for him, a new coach looking to prove himself will make that deal. That's not a bad thing, every party should do what's best for their situation.
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I think it has to do with proving to everyone they are right. The big reason to stick with Wojo was to keep the core roster together. Though we can't see whether Wojo would have been able to do that, it appears that Shaka was not able to keep 2/3s of that together and lost arguably the best player in the incoming class. This proves to this group that they were "right."
On the flip side, Shaka has brought in a good amount of talent and is a more established coach. If he wins quick, the results above no matta and the other side will say they were "right". It if takes 3-5 years to rebuild, then the group above will say "they were right."
What matters is that Shaka is our coach and we all want MU to win so it doesn't matta who was "right".
Agreed
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If you think Dawson has been stringing Smart along for three months, you're mistaken. They've been talking and know exactly where things stand. If Dawson wants to buy into the culture Shaka is building, he will be welcomed with open arms. If his camp has a different vision for him, a new coach looking to prove himself will make that deal. That's not a bad thing, every party should do what's best for their situation.
How do you know they have been talking, and who is in Garcia's camp?
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In terms of wins and losses, Carton and Garcia staying would have been the best-case scenario. It's silly to argue otherwise.
DJ seemed to like Shaka but just wanted to be done with college. Disappointing but hard to cast any blame on Shaka in this case.
As for Garcia, it would be great if he came back. He would probably be our best player, it would be fun to watch him continue to develop under Shaka, and we would be a better team. If he transfers, so be it. Different situation than DJ but still hard to see it as a poor reflection on Shaka considering how common transfer out are during a coaching change.
If he does transfer, as seems more likely now, the focus shifts even further away from our record and to development. How much better can the team get over the course of the season? Can these guys develop enough through this season and the next offseason to be a tourney team in 22-23?
Excellent post. The first paragraph is a no-brainer, despite attempts by some to spin it as a good thing. Those who didn't think Shaka very much wanted to keep DJ and Garcia are on quaaludes or something.
I am not pining for DJ, nor will I pine for Garcia if he indeed leaves. I don't "blame" Shaka for either young man leaving. I will be cheering on Shaka and all the players under his charge. But as a Marquette fan who wants to have the best team possible every year and who thought DJ and Garcia had all-conference talent, I would have loved to have seen DJ and Garcia with another year of experience and being coached by Shaka.
That's all it is. It isn't right or left or pro-Shaka or anti-Wojo or vice versa. I just want to effen win.
And I don't think Garcia has "strung us along." He's operating within the rules and the framework allowed, trying to make the best decision for himself -- just like every coach, including Shaka, does every day of every year.
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Would be very surprised if he ends up back with MU. Also don’t think he’ll stay in the draft. He’ll pick another school and bolt to NBA next year seems most likely scenario.
He wants to move on, fine and good luck. Just stop playing with MU already. So tired of today’s athletes and their bulls*** will I or won’t I game and stringing everyone along ad nauseam.
100%
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were gonna suck next year. accept it ppl. it happens with coaching changes. glad to have shaka
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In terms of wins and losses, Carton and Garcia staying would have been the best-case scenario. It's silly to argue otherwise.
DJ seemed to like Shaka but just wanted to be done with college. Disappointing but hard to cast any blame on Shaka in this case.
As for Garcia, it would be great if he came back. He would probably be our best player, it would be fun to watch him continue to develop under Shaka, and we would be a better team. If he transfers, so be it. Different situation than DJ but still hard to see it as a poor reflection on Shaka considering how common transfer out are during a coaching change.
If he does transfer, as seems more likely now, the focus shifts even further away from our record and to development. How much better can the team get over the course of the season? Can these guys develop enough through this season and the next offseason to be a tourney team in 22-23?
Agreed. Losing good players is rarely a good thing. Bottom line, I'm not a Wojo fan, a Shaka fan, a Hauser fan, or a Garcia fan. I'm a Marquette fan, and I want them to win. Wojo's big issue was that he never accomplished enough after his grace period. Shaka's gonna get a grace period as well, but if we're gonna be bad next year, then he needs to make up for it moving forward. I think/hope he will.
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Would be very surprised if he ends up back with MU. Also don’t think he’ll stay in the draft. He’ll pick another school and bolt to NBA next year seems most likely scenario.
He wants to move on, fine and good luck. Just stop playing with MU already. So tired of today’s athletes and their bulls*** will I or won’t I game and stringing everyone along ad nauseam.
This has nothing to do with “today’s athletes” other than they have more options.
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While I do not expect Garcia to return, I read his comment about possibly returning as leaving the door open, even if just a crack. To me, it does not matter at all that it was the last item mentioned. This is the same board that had a solid majority absolutely certain that Wojo would not be fired.
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While I do not expect Garcia to return, I read his comment about possibly returning as leaving the door open, even if just a crack. To me, it does not matter at all that it was the last item mentioned. This is the same board that had a solid majority absolutely certain that Wojo would not be fired.
What board?
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What board?
This board. Everyone said COVID “bought” him an additional year. Then the carousel started to spin
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Once you've opened the door to transferring a crack, it's awfully hard to close it.
There have been circumstances, but this is often just saving face
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Once you've opened the door to transferring a crack, it's awfully hard to close it.
There have been circumstances, but this is often just saving face
Garcia may have more of a concern who his PG will be.
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Once you've opened the door to transferring a crack, it's awfully hard to close it.
There have been circumstances, but this is often just saving face
I believe that you misread my post. Leaving the opening the "door open just a crack" referred to the possibility of Garcia's return to Marquette.
Anyone have stats to show how often a player returns to his team after entering the portal? My guess is only a few. It's not a sure thing that he's leaving Marquette, but its very probably so. Its still possible he will return. We should know soon.
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Garcia may have more of a concern who his PG will be.
Morsell?
Maybe that's why he left open the possibility of a return.
Hey, why not?
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This board. Everyone said COVID “bought” him an additional year. Then the carousel started to spin
I was one of them. I thought MU’s financial woes would prevent it from happening.someone stepped up financially, and I’m appreciative of them.
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What board?
Sultan (and maybe others) insisted it was a fact, not an opinion, that Wojo was coming back.
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Sultan (and maybe others) insisted it was a fact, not an opinion, that Wojo was coming back.
Poll on this very board in February- 246 votes cast- 78% he would be back. I was in the 22% 😁
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Sultan (and maybe others) insisted it was a fact, not an opinion, that Wojo was coming back.
I think things changed dramatically and quickly. I thought he’d be back as well and was pleasantly surprised they made the move. I definitely thought it was around 99% he’d be back because of financial reasons but I think it was Doc who said to rip off the band-aid now and that made sense to me after thinking about it. They were probably going to pay at the box office next year if he was a lame duck coach come Big East schedule time in 2022.
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Was very happy to be wrong about us being stuck with Wojo in 2021-22.
Let's remember that the same guy who was demanding apologies from Scoopers after Wojo did get canned also had insisted that Lewis would be gone. I guess he owes the rest of us apologies for that one.
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Was very happy to be wrong about us being stuck with Wojo in 2021-22.
Let's remember that the same guy who was demanding apologies from Scoopers after Wojo did get canned also had insisted that Lewis would be gone. I guess he owes the rest of us apologies for that one.
I'm confident Lewis will still leave. By the 2025-26 season, he'll be gone, mark my words!
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Poll on this very board in February- 246 votes cast- 78% he would be back. I was in the 22% 😁
I, too, thought he'd be gone against popular belief. While COVID hurt all schools and businesses financially, keeping a failing head coach had the potential to cripple the basketball program for years to come.
It was no secret the fan and alumni base were done with Wojo. With fans allowed to return fully this season, there was legitimate danger in ticket sales tanking. Couple that with the on-going (now known) uncertainty of both Dawson and DJ, and it really became a no brainer.
I'm glad the right decision was made, despite the hesitations many had for obvious reasons on this board. And I still wish Wojo the best in his future pursuits.
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I'm confident Lewis will still leave. By the 2025-26 season, he'll be gone, mark my words!
What do you expect from JLew in 21-22? Could he be a 14 and 10 guy with solid shooting percentages?
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This board. Everyone said COVID “bought” him an additional year. Then the carousel started to spin
Well most thought it wouldn't happen because there was going to be backlash if money was spent for a buyout while employees were being laid off. A big donor was willing to part ways with a couple of million or maybe 3.
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If we have a morsel of good news on Monday, I think the door goes from being open a crack to ajar. Just a wild guess, but I think our chances of Garcia returning may go up to 1 in 4, maybe even 1 in 3. Let's hope that Morsell will become the pivot point.
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What do you expect from JLew in 21-22? Could he be a 14 and 10 guy with solid shooting percentages?
Without Garcia, I’m expecting close to that. Maybe 13 and 8 with plenty of Double Doubles. If he can stay out of foul trouble, he could be even better. Hopefully he plays good enough defense and is injury free so he can put up big numbers. The ceiling is high for J Lew.
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If we have a morsel of good news on Monday, I think the door goes from being open a crack to ajar. Just a wild guess, but I think our chances of Garcia returning may go up to 1 in 4, maybe even 1 in 3. Let's hope that Morsell will become the pivot point.
Morsell coming and no Dawson is where I would set your expectations.
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Morsell coming and no Dawson is where I would set your expectations.
I set my own expectations but thanks for the kind offer to help. By stating that I think the chances for Garcia returning will increase to 1 in 4, maybe 1 in 3, obviously I do not expect Garcia to return.
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I can't speak for all, but I know many who said Wojo was back gave a pretty big caveat.... unless a donor or donors offered to pay the buyout. That caveat was mercifully fulfilled and Wojo was thankfully shown the door.
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I set my own expectations but thanks for the kind offer to help. By stating that I think the chances for Garcia returning will increase to 1 in 4, maybe 1 in 3, obviously I do not expect Garcia to return.
Contrarian theory would be that Morsell might be choosing MU because Garcia is leaving?
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I can't speak for all, but I know many who said Wojo was back gave a pretty big caveat.... unless a donor or donors offered to pay the buyout. That caveat was mercifully fulfilled and Wojo was thankfully shown the door.
And everything I heard was that he was going to be back - until things got really bad in the BET.
If it makes Lenny’s feel better to admit I was wrong, I’ll admit I was wrong.
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What do you expect from JLew in 21-22? Could he be a 14 and 10 guy with solid shooting percentages?
Here’s my bold and probably unpopular take: keeping JL is more important than DG
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I set my own expectations but thanks for the kind offer to help. By stating that I think the chances for Garcia returning will increase to 1 in 4, maybe 1 in 3, obviously I do not expect Garcia to return.
And I’m just telling you what is going to happen.
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Here’s my bold and probably unpopular take: keeping JL is more important than DG
If JL stays 3 - 4 years, absolutely.
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Here’s my bold and probably unpopular take: keeping JL is more important than DG
I don't think that's bold or unpopular. Dawson is almost a guarantee to go pro after next season. JLew likely a 4 year guy.
Dawson is better now but I think Lewis has the higher ceiling
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Nm
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Today's AZ Star refers to Garcia as an "Marquette transfer" who has been in contact with Arizona as well as many named others. Makes it sound like a "done deal". Does anyone have other info?
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Without Garcia, I’m expecting close to that. Maybe 13 and 8 with plenty of Double Doubles. If he can stay out of foul trouble, he could be even better. Hopefully he plays good enough defense and is injury free so he can put up big numbers. The ceiling is high for J Lew.
Without García it will be easier for teams guard JFL, might not reach those numbers.
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I don't think that's bold or unpopular. Dawson is almost a guarantee to go pro after next season. JLew likely a 4 year guy.
They're both two year guys, but Justin is gonna be the one drafted.
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Today's AZ Star refers to Garcia as an "Marquette transfer" who has been in contact with Arizona as well as many named others. Makes it sound like a "done deal". Does anyone have other info?
All the smoke around Garcia for awhile made it sound like he was leaving. My only hope was the July 1 would come and go. Now that he's in the portal, I think he's as good as gone.
Too bad, the thing he most needs to play in the NBA is a coach that prepares bigs to play NBA defense and I'm not sure there's a better one than Shaka. Come draft night, he'll likely have 6 players 6'9" or taller drafted in the last 5 years. I'm not sure anyone has a better track record in that time.
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Morsell coming and no Dawson is where I would set your expectations.
And I’m just telling you what is going to happen.
Reread your own posts. If you had stated your first post as your own opinion/expectation rather than where you "would set (my) expectations", no problem. Now you are taking the "Wojo will definitely be our coach this coming season" approach. Although I do not expect Garcia to return, if he does, I'll send you a recipe for crow.
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They're both two year guys, but Justin is gonna be the one drafted.
Apparently you think Justin is going to take one hell of a leap this season.
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Reread your own posts. If you had stated your first post as your own opinion/expectation rather than where you "would set (my) expectations", no problem. Now you are taking the "Wojo will definitely be our coach this coming season" approach. Although I do not expect Garcia to return, if he does, I'll send you a recipe for crow.
I'm not giving my opinion
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Nm
Silent whisper?
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Apparently you think Justin is going to take one hell of a leap this season.
Before he got hurt he very much had the attention of NBA people. Doesn't need that much of a leap. If he's healthy and his conditioning is on point, he's gonna get drafted.
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I don't think that's bold or unpopular. Dawson is almost a guarantee to go pro after next season. JLew likely a 4 year guy.
Dawson is better now but I think Lewis has the higher ceiling
Maybe not in your eyes but based on how many talk about the two here I’m not sure you’re right
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Silent whisper?
Careless whisper
Guilty feet ain't got no rhythm
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Shaka is saying all the right things publicly, meanwhile his team is grinding their tails off on N 12th.
Well, if we will hold it against players when they test the NBA waters, I sure hope that Shaka totally avoids 5 star and the top rated 4 stars players, so we don't have to deal with that kind of lack of commitment ever again.
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It frightens me to imagine what a Wojo-led team would have been next year, especially without Dawson or DJ returning.
Strange as it may seem, Wojo returning may have been the key to keeping Dawson and DJ on board. DJ seemed to be on board (even tweeting pro MU stuff) until he had some time with Shaka on campus. DJ might not have liked what Shaka had to say about his game.
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were gonna suck next year. accept it ppl. it happens with coaching changes. glad to have shaka
We'll suck a lot less than after the last two coaching changes when Crean and Buzz left along with pretty much all their recruiting classes.
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Contrarian theory would be that Morsell might be choosing MU because Garcia is leaving?
That would be the contrary to logic theory.
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Strange as it may seem, Wojo returning may have been the key to keeping Dawson and DJ on board. DJ seemed to be on board (even tweeting pro MU stuff) until he had some time with Shaka on campus. DJ might not have liked what Shaka had to say about his game.
This seems like a reach.
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Strange as it may seem, Wojo returning may have been the key to keeping Dawson and DJ on board. DJ seemed to be on board (even tweeting pro MU stuff) until he had some time with Shaka on campus. DJ might not have liked what Shaka had to say about his game.
DJ's odds of staying increased with Shaka
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Strange as it may seem, Wojo returning may have been the key to keeping Dawson and DJ on board. DJ seemed to be on board (even tweeting pro MU stuff) until he had some time with Shaka on campus. DJ might not have liked what Shaka had to say about his game.
We will never know. But I think many have strong doubts about that prediction. DJ was rumored to leave last year if he wasn't given a waiver. He very much was always going to be a one and done, and his camp made that known. Many predicted Dawson to be here two years, three max. Dawson still goes through the draft process if Wojo is still here (and still has one foot out the door).
In either case, it is highly probable that neither Dawson or DJ were returning next year - with Shaka or with Wojo.
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DJ's odds of staying increased with Shaka
I've heard the same. Seems like someone got in his ear, similar to Vander back in the day.
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Before he got hurt he very much had the attention of NBA people. Doesn't need that much of a leap. If he's healthy and his conditioning is on point, he's gonna get drafted.
I think he can get there. I don't think he gets there this season but I hope he does!
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Before he got hurt he very much had the attention of NBA people. Doesn't need that much of a leap. If he's healthy and his conditioning is on point, he's gonna get drafted.
Justin is going to have to dramatically improve his game from 15 feet out to get serious attention from NBA people.
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I think DG would benefit from stating at MU quite a bit. Shaka has coached several good bigs and he's got a ways to go to play at the NBA level. Just my opinion.
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I thought I posted this b/4, but the morning Tucson paper refers to DG as a transfer from Narquette who has contacted AZ and several others who were named. Looks like he's gone.
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See my note, he's gone.
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I thought I posted this b/4, but the morning Tucson paper refers to DG as a transfer from Narquette who has contacted AZ and several others who were named. Looks like he's gone.
He may be gone, but how the Tucson newspaper referred to him is irrelevant.
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I thought I posted this b/4, but the morning Tucson paper refers to DG as a transfer from Narquette who has contacted AZ and several others who were named. Looks like he's gone.
See my note, he's gone.
You did post this morning. It wasn't news. DG said a few days ago that he was entering the transfer portal but its also considering returning to Marquette. That last part may just be a courtesy
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And everything I heard was that he was going to be back - until things got really bad in the BET.
If it makes Lenny’s feel better to admit I was wrong, I’ll admit I was wrong.
Anyone who posts frequently here sharing opinions re future events is wrong sometimes. The point was that you claimed it as a fact, a #done deal, and not an opinion or a prediction - and stated as much. Now it was still a #done deal but one bad loss (of many) turned the tide? Sounds like IWB and the Mrs Shaka story.
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Anyone who posts frequently here sharing opinions re future events is wrong sometimes. The point was that you claimed it as a fact, a #done deal, and not an opinion or a prediction - and stated as much. Now it was still a #done deal but one bad loss (of many) turned the tide? Sounds like IWB and the Mrs Shaka story.
Ah you’ve decided to do your full Chicosesque pedantry. Have fun!
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I have 5 text strings of #mubb. About 26 alums involved. By February if 2021 it was 100% negative.
I knew he was done. You can’t operate with that negativity. There’s no ticket sale potential.
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I have 5 text strings of #mubb. About 26 alums involved. By February if 2021 it was 100% negative.
I knew he was done. You can’t operate with that negativity. There’s no ticket sale potential.
And yet, unless Scholl was lying to everybody's faces, he and Lovell gave Wojo every opportunity to keep his job if Wojo had agreed to make changes to his bench.
Whatever the total truth is, the vast majority of us are glad Wojo is gone, and I optimistically look forward to the Shaka Smart Era.
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And yet, unless Scholl was lying to everybody's faces, he and Lovell gave Wojo every opportunity to keep his job if Wojo had agreed to make changes to his bench.
Whatever the total truth is, the vast majority of us are glad Wojo is gone, and I optimistically look forward to the Shaka Smart Era.
I believe they were lying to everybody's faces.
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With the personalities involved, it is completely believable.
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I have 5 text strings of #mubb. About 26 alums involved. By February if 2021 it was 100% negative.
I knew he was done. You can’t operate with that negativity. There’s no ticket sale potential.
If this is the standard Shaka most likely fired after 2 years
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If this is the standard Shaka most likely fired after 2 years
No, bc I surround myself with pretty diverse group of thinkers. This was the worst it ever was. My "off line" MU world is a lot like Scoop, rarely is everyone completely aligned.
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No, bc I surround myself with pretty diverse group of thinkers. This was the worst it ever was. My "off line" MU world is a lot like Scoop, rarely is everyone completely aligned.
LOL ok, sounds solid.
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I believe they were lying to everybody's faces.
Well, that's better than lying behind their backs?
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And yet, unless Scholl was lying to everybody's faces, he and Lovell gave Wojo every opportunity to keep his job if Wojo had agreed to make changes to his bench.
Whatever the total truth is, the vast majority of us are glad Wojo is gone, and I optimistically look forward to the Shaka Smart Era.
I don't think Scholl was lying, but my guess is that he presented Wojo with a bit of a sophie's choice.
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Anyone who posts frequently here sharing opinions re future events is wrong sometimes. The point was that you claimed it as a fact, a #done deal, and not an opinion or a prediction - and stated as much. Now it was still a #done deal but one bad loss (of many) turned the tide? Sounds like IWB and the Mrs Shaka story.
Lenny
You know better than to argue with a fool.
On a more important note, are you in for the Meat Summit?
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Lenny
You know better than to argue with a fool.
On a more important note, are you in for the Meat Summit?
Even more important, are you staying cool in the PNW this week?
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Nutmeg
Good Lord but this is absurd. Seattle had 4 days in recorded history above 100. We will double that by tomorrow.
We moved out of our downtown high rise (Seattle has turned into a craphole in many ways) for a place on the water. Jumping into the Sound never felt better.
Our place has central air but it's amazing how many homes here do not. Some friends have booked themselves into hotels for the week. We are on the coast for the weekend so we letting a family squat in our place.
We played 18 on Saturday though TBD's mom insisted on riding. It might have been 102 but compared with Tikrit it was balmy.
Frankly, I blame this all on Al Gore. He's the sonuvabitch who invented Global Warming. Bastard.
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Lenny
You know better than to argue with a fool.
On a more important note, are you in for the Meat Summit?
Crash
Unfortunately I won’t be in the Midwest. Hate to miss it, hope you guys have a blast!
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Strange as it may seem, Wojo returning may have been the key to keeping Dawson and DJ on board. DJ seemed to be on board (even tweeting pro MU stuff) until he had some time with Shaka on campus. DJ might not have liked what Shaka had to say about his game.
If this was the case, then the trade of losing DJ and Garcia was worth it for the long run. A slow swirl (further?) down the drain has been avoided, although next year is going to be bumpy.
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Strange as it may seem, Wojo returning may have been the key to keeping Dawson and DJ on board. DJ seemed to be on board (even tweeting pro MU stuff) until he had some time with Shaka on campus. DJ might not have liked what Shaka had to say about his game.
Dawson seemed to me that he was gonna declare either way. DJ I agree, seemed on board at first. Would definitely like to know what those conversations were like.
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Ah you’ve decided to do your full Chicosesque pedantry. Have fun!
So claiming to have facts that don’t exist is a minor detail in your world (Chicosesque pedantry, lol). Sad.
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If this was the case, then the trade of losing DJ and Garcia was worth it for the long run. A slow swirl (further?) down the drain has been avoided, although next year is going to be bumpy.
+1. Keeping a bad coach because you don’t want to lose the players that just got you a 9th place finish in the Big East is flat out dumb.
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So now that Garcia's in the portal does he have to commit by July 1st? Or can he take his time deciding where to go?
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So now that Garcia's in the portal does he have to commit by July 1st? Or can he take his time deciding where to go?
Hes fine. He just had to be in the portal to not have to worry about any sort of waiver
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Nutmeg
Good Lord but this is absurd. Seattle had 4 days in recorded history above 100. We will double that by tomorrow.
We moved out of our downtown high rise (Seattle has turned into a craphole in many ways) for a place on the water. Jumping into the Sound never felt better.
Our place has central air but it's amazing how many homes here do not. Some friends have booked themselves into hotels for the week. We are on the coast for the weekend so we letting a family squat in our place.
We played 18 on Saturday though TBD's mom insisted on riding. It might have been 102 but compared with Tikrit it was balmy.
Frankly, I blame this all on Al Gore. He's the sonuvabitch who invented Global Warming. Bastard.
I saw an article yesterday on central air in greater Seattle area. Only 44% of houses/apartments have it which is an improvement from 5 years ago when only 31% did.
Good call moving near the water. As we say here in Southern New England - cooler summers and warmer winters.
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So claiming to have facts that don’t exist is a minor detail in your world (Chicosesque pedantry, lol). Sad.
I admitted I was wrong at the time and re-stated it once again a couple days ago.
So I guess you are continuing to argue this point because you're either completely forgetting that I admitted this, or you're an argumentative dick.
Which is it?
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I admitted I was wrong at the time and re-stated it once again a couple days ago.
So I guess you are continuing to argue this point because you're either completely forgetting that I admitted this, or you're an argumentative dick.
Which is it?
C. None of the above
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C. None of the above
I'm going with
D. Both
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I'm going with
D. Both
No worries. Won’t be the first time you’ve been dead wrong.
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Lenny
Once again you have me laughing at my desk. Having a crazy day and appreciate the laugh. Sorry to see you are not going to be up our way at all this summer.
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Lenny
Once again you have me laughing at my desk. Having a crazy day and appreciate the laugh. Sorry to see you are not going to be up our way at all this summer.
Goose - I’ll be up in late August. Love to see you guys if we can put something together.
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Lenny
#donedeal for late August. You let us know the dates and we will make it happen.
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This little back and forth has me thinking of St. Louis and Sweden for some reason.
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I saw an article yesterday on central air in greater Seattle area. Only 44% of houses/apartments have it which is an improvement from 5 years ago when only 31% did.
Good call moving near the water. As we say here in Southern New England - cooler summers and warmer winters.
For their anniversary, which arrived right after they moved into their suburban Seattle house 3 years back, my son-in-law bought my daughter central air.
A great gift!
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For their anniversary, which arrived right after they moved into their suburban Seattle house 3 years back, my son-in-law bought my daughter central air.
A great gift!
What a selfless guy! ;)
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What a selfless guy! ;)
He is all heart.
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Any chance the Morsell commit has any bearing on Garcia's upcoming decision? Just curious.
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Any chance the Morsell commit has any bearing on Garcia's upcoming decision? Just curious.
I really don't think so.
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How romantic, aina?
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For their anniversary, which arrived right after they moved into their suburban Seattle house 3 years back, my son-in-law bought my daughter central air.
A great gift!
Some good foresight there.
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Lenny
#donedeal for late August. You let us know the dates and we will make it happen.
Goose
Will do as soon as they’re nailed down.
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How romantic, aina?
I know it wasn't the MAGA hat you gave to Mrs. Doc, but it'll hafta do.
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Cool, thanks Brew!
I really don't think so.
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For what it's worth, Darren Wolfson thinks Dawson isn't coming back to Marquette and also that he won't be going to Minnesota.
UNC seems to be the primary lean from the tea leaves. One of their podcasts attributed the following to Dawson:
He’s looking for a GREAT opportunity to play and be a strong asset to a winning team; to work with a coaching staff that is dedicated to his development and future goals.
We check all the boxes but "winning team" for now. I guess it depends on how you can sell that. That said, what it really looks like is he's looking for another Wojo that will say "you have the ultimate green light"
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For what it's worth, Darren Wolfson thinks Dawson isn't coming back to Marquette and also that he won't be going to Minnesota.
UNC seems to be the primary lean from the tea leaves. One of their podcasts attributed the following to Dawson:
He’s looking for a GREAT opportunity to play and be a strong asset to a winning team; to work with a coaching staff that is dedicated to his development and future goals.
We check all the boxes but "winning team" for now. I guess it depends on how you can sell that. That said, what it really looks like is he's looking for another Wojo that will say "you have the ultimate green light"
FWIW, Wolfson is wrong about alot
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For what it's worth, Darren Wolfson thinks Dawson isn't coming back to Marquette and also that he won't be going to Minnesota.
UNC seems to be the primary lean from the tea leaves. One of their podcasts attributed the following to Dawson:
He’s looking for a GREAT opportunity to play and be a strong asset to a winning team; to work with a coaching staff that is dedicated to his development and future goals.
We check all the boxes but "winning team" for now. I guess it depends on how you can sell that. That said, what it really looks like is he's looking for another Wojo that will say "you have the ultimate green light"
He didn't really have the ultimate green light here though. His 22% usage was 4th on the team behind Fizulich (small sample size), DJ, and Justin, and would also have trailed notable "ultimate green light" players Carlino's 25, Henry's 26, and Markus' absurd 39.
A coaching change is the most understandable reason to transfer, Dawson didn't sign up to play under Shaka, it's perfectly reasonable that he'd want to leave. I'm not sure exactly what he's looking for in a new program, but he'll make whatever decision is best for him.
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If he wants to be on a winning team, I get that he'd look elsewhere after last season. I don't blame DG one bit if he left MU. But why UNC? They weren't good last year, and essentially have the same team coming back but without Walker Kessler. I guess he just likes the idea of playing there and the "want to be on a winning team" is just what people say.
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FWIW, Wolfson is wrong about alot
Yeah--thus why I had the "for what it's worth" portion.
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For what it's worth, Darren Wolfson thinks Dawson isn't coming back to Marquette and also that he won't be going to Minnesota.
UNC seems to be the primary lean from the tea leaves. One of their podcasts attributed the following to Dawson:
He’s looking for a GREAT opportunity to play and be a strong asset to a winning team; to work with a coaching staff that is dedicated to his development and future goals.
In other words, play for a coach who has never been a head coach before. :-\
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In other words, play for a coach who has never been a head coach before. :-\
That is one of the weird parts--a lot of the schools he has on the interest list are those that have Assistant's elevated to HC jobs (Lloyd at U of A, Davis at UNC, Johnson at Minnesota). Only schools that aren't really are Texas, Ok State, and Illinois.
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If Dawson goes to Illinois, the Gavitt game will have some extra juice.
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For what it's worth, Darren Wolfson thinks Dawson isn't coming back to Marquette and also that he won't be going to Minnesota.
Not worth a thing. I think you’d be hard-pressed to find many people who DON’T think that to be the case.
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For their anniversary, which arrived right after they moved into their suburban Seattle house 3 years back, my son-in-law bought my daughter central air.
A great gift!
Canadian practicality!
Did he get his bride a dishwasher for Christmas?
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Crash
Unfortunately I won’t be in the Midwest. Hate to miss it, hope you guys have a blast!
I saw that you will be in the Midwest in August. Let Goose know the deets and I will plan accordingly
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Lenny
Once again you have me laughing at my desk. Having a crazy day and appreciate the laugh. Sorry to see you are not going to be up our way at all this summer.
Joe
Gotta love Mr Bernstein. He doesn’t suffer fools and he is slapping down one of the bigger ones out there.
Any man who came of age swilling dime beers at Lenny’s learned a thing or two about human nature.
Al was dead nuts correct on that observation
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Keefe
Lenny does not suffer fools and he can spot them a mile away. Looking forward to seeing you later this summer. It has been too long. Happy to see you survived the heat. My daughter loves in Portland and had a long four days with no AC.
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Keefe
Lenny does not suffer fools and he can spot them a mile away. Looking forward to seeing you later this summer. It has been too long. Happy to see you survived the heat. My daughter loves in Portland and had a long four days with no AC.
Sounds like she needs to marry a thoughtful gentleman who can fix that !
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I saw that you will be in the Midwest in August. Let Goose know the deets and I will plan accordingly
Hey meat eaters. If you are not inviting everyone (or at least Dawson Garcia), take it to the DM's.
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Canadian practicality!
Did he get his bride a dishwasher for Christmas?
They already had one, but thanks for asking.
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Joe
Gotta love Mr Bernstein. He doesn’t suffer fools and he is slapping down one of the bigger ones out there.
Any man who came of age swilling dime beers at Lenny’s learned a thing or two about human nature.
Al was dead nuts correct on that observation
Dime beers? When was that. The last time I had a dime beer was a 7 ounce tap in 1966.
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Sounds like she needs to marry a thoughtful gentleman who can fix that !
Orr move up da highway and shelter wit Nads kinfolk, aina?
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Hey meat eaters. If you are not inviting everyone (or at least Dawson Garcia), take it to the DM's.
Bye invite only, hey?
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If Dawson goes to Illinois, the Gavitt game will have some extra juice.
NEWS: @DPiper247 confirms @MaxFeldman6 report that Marquette star transfer Dawson Garcia is visiting the #illini campus.
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Why would he step down from Marquette?
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Also curious how the Illinois insiders knew Dawson was transferring before entering the portal...
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NEWS: @DPiper247 confirms @MaxFeldman6 report that Marquette star transfer Dawson Garcia is visiting the #illini campus.
Well that would make for an interesting Gavitt game
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I can Confirm that DG is currently in a restaurant in C-U dining with the Illinois coaching staff.Underwood is very old school and known to yell and scream alot @ his players.Not sure how DG would handle that.Also the entire world should be aware after the Loyola game that he is not very good @ making half time adjustments.
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I can Confirm that DG is currently in a restaurant in C-U dining with the Illinois coaching staff.Underwood is very old school and known to yell and scream alot @ his players.Not sure how DG would handle that.Also the entire world should be aware after the Loyola game that he is not very good @ making half time adjustments.
But how are his cuddles?
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Dime beers? When was that. The last time I had a dime beer was a 7 ounce tap in 1966.
Where? The Fin'n Feather, Vogue?
The 7 oz. tulip glass was 15 cents if memory serves.
If I served it you didn't get much foam.
I don't think the Ardmore served shooters (shot and a beer).
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Where? The Fin'n Feather, Vogue?
The 7 oz. tulip glass was 15 cents if memory serves.
If I served it you didn't get much foam.
I don't think the Ardmore served shooters (shot and a beer).
I remember the midget bar z(I think that is what it was called) on about 22nd and wells had 7 ounces fir a dime I think. 1972 ish. Heck the Armore schooners were 25 cents. I think 16 ounces. Kanchenjunga was 15 I think lol
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I remember the midget bar z(I think that is what it was called) on about 22nd and wells had 7 ounces fir a dime I think. 1972 ish. Heck the Armore schooners were 25 cents. I think 16 ounces. Kanchenjunga was 15 I think lol
Midget -- on Wells and 24th -- was one of my "home bars" as an upperclassman. When I was there, Schlitz taps were 35 cents. But I don't doubt they were a dime a decade earlier.
My freshman year, a couple of places had dime taps the day of games, and one (can't remember which) even had nickel taps. Both had limits for how many one could buy.
But at various times during my years at MU, the Gym and State House both had quarter-tap nights, and several places had dollar-pitcher nights.
Or so I'm told.
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Also the entire world should be aware after the Loyola game that he is not very good @ making half time adjustments.
I doubt that's a point Shaka is going to try to make.
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Hoo kares? Next kat up, hey?
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Hoo kares? Next kat up, hey?
Exactly, just like when the Hausers quit
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Exactly, just like when the Hausers quit
The Hausers leaving was symbolic of a problem in the program.
Garcia leaving is hardly that. Sure I want him to return no doubt. But if he's not interested, then he's not interested. Life goes on.
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Could be anywhere in the world & will potentially spend his 2 years on a college campus in Milwaukee & Champaign.
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Exactly, just like when the Hausers quit
Easy for you to say, especially to give an out for your help, Wojo-Dukiet
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Dime beers? When was that. The last time I had a dime beer was a 7 ounce tap in 1966.
By 1977, dime beers were a quarter. And often times green beer served in May.
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Easy for you to say, especially to give an out for your help, Wojo-Dukiet
I have no idea what you just said but next man up
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I can Confirm that DG is currently in a restaurant in C-U dining with the Illinois coaching staff.Underwood is very old school and known to yell and scream alot @ his players.Not sure how DG would handle that.Also the entire world should be aware after the Loyola game that he is not very good @ making half time adjustments.
This is vaguely reminiscent of posts made during Garcia's Indiana visit prior to his Marquette commitment! Tip: don't have your picture taken with him in the restaurant - it will queer the deal!
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Could be anywhere in the world & will potentially spend his 2 years on a college campus in Milwaukee & Champaign.
Winters notwithstanding, Milwaukee is solid. Heck of a lot better than Bloomington, Indiana or Stillwater, Oklahoma.
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Winters notwithstanding, Milwaukee is solid. Heck of a lot better than Bloomington, Indiana or Stillwater, Oklahoma.
Winters notwithstanding is kinda like the Bataan Death March being a great hike, Japanese soldiers not withstanding
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Winters notwithstanding is kinda like the Bataan Death March being a great hike, Japanese soldiers not withstanding
Yeah, it's exactly like that.
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Chapel Hill :-\
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Midget -- on Wells and 24th -- was one of my "home bars" as an upperclassman. When I was there, Schlitz taps were 35 cents. But I don't doubt they were a dime a decade earlier.
My freshman year, a couple of places had dime taps the day of games, and one (can't remember which) even had nickel taps. Both had limits for how many one could buy.
But at various times during my years at MU, the Gym and State House both had quarter-tap nights, and several places had dollar-pitcher nights.
Or so I'm told.
Midget was a cool little bar. I lived in 24th and Wells then in that 4+1 on the NE corner
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I have no idea what you just said but next man up
Sorry, meant to say an out or an excuse for your hero, Wojo-Dukiet
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Sorry, meant to say an out or an excuse for your hero, Wojo-Dukiet
No excuse. Next man up.
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Crean sucks
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Winters notwithstanding, Milwaukee is solid. Heck of a lot better than Bloomington, Indiana or Stillwater, Oklahoma.
pure college towns are tough to beat.
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pure college towns are tough to beat.
Have you been to Bloomington or Stillwater? Or Tuscoloosa or Manhattan, KS? It's pretty easy to beat all of them.
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pure college towns are tough to beat.
I've been to the two towns I listed. Milwaukee has them beat, and it's not close. The campuses are nice. The towns? Blah.
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I've been to the two towns I listed. Milwaukee has them beat, and it's not close. The campuses are nice. The towns? Blah.
Pure college towns are great between ages 18-22. After that, not so much.
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Pure college towns are great between ages 18-22. After that, not so much.
And maybe not what every college student is looking for. I think a campus in a city is a selling point to many.
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I really like Milwaukee. Wish I could spend more time there but I live a bit away, still in the area, however and we drive in once a month or so. But not the same as living there. I've traveled a lot, seen a lot of places, and unless you want NYC, or small or hot weather, it is a great place.
It's a beautiful city, lot's of neighborhoods, food scenes, beer gardens and beer everywhere and parties/events outside for half the year. Weather is great 2/3 of the year for those of us who don't like hot and humid. December - March I could live without, that is for sure, but I have learned to get out in it and counterintuitively it actually makes the winters a lot more tolerable. It took me most of my lifetime to not fight the winter, and instead embrace it and get out into it and make use of it.
The number one key is that it is a livable city and has really grown up over the last 20 years.
For me the midwest is fine, as I love Spring and Fall, put on a pair of jeans, a tee shirt, and a fleece jacket and go. No bugs, no humidity, crisp air.
For those who like Florida in the Spring, Summer, and Fall, I can see why they'd hate the midwest or Northeast. But I talk to too many people in FL/AZ who hibernate in the summer, A/C on, and blinds drawn. As one older guy in AZ tells me, it isn't bad in the summer, I just go out before 8:00 AM. So, kinda like winter without the snow. But I am sure that many don't care and get out and golf, etc, regardless of the temp/sun.
Now, if one could afford to live in San Diego, with money to live the right way there, well... that might be the best weather for a guy like me who doesn't like hot and humid. Hassle getting around, but I could live with that: Cooler, fewer bugs, etc.
An aside: Shout out to Kevin O'Neill who I heard on the Mac's podcast mention that he is living on Coronado and loving it. Ocean view. Said he is working at a law firm 3 hours a day and loving life. I'd love to know what he does at the law firm.
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And maybe not what every college student is looking for. I think a campus in a city is a selling point to many.
I think we probably over value the college experience based on our own personal experiences. Everyone has their own desires in what they want out of the college experience
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I love Milwaukee. After MU I lived in Chicago for 4 years before moving back home to Detroit. I’ve been back in Detroit coming up on 7 years now and whenever someone asks me “do you miss living in Chicago?” My first response is always “I miss being 90 miles from Milwaukee”
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An aside: Shout out to Kevin O'Neill who I heard on the Mac's podcast mention that he is living on Coronado and loving it. Ocean view. Said he is working at a law firm 3 hours a day and loving life. I'd love to know what he does at the law firm.
Cusses out associates when they file sloppy briefs.
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Cusses out associates when they file sloppy briefs.
Figured he does trial prep for a witness to practice being cross examined.
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pure college towns are tough to beat.
Milwaukee is a nice, average Midwestern city. Nice Volk, situated on Lake Michigan.
But the weather there isn't at all favorable. I also lived in Ann Arbor which has the same climate - brutal winters and humid summers. Given a choice I would take A2 every time.
B1G college towns have so much more going culturally than Milwaukee. I hate to say it but Madison is preferable to Milwaukee as a place to live.
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As someone who grew up in Madison, but lived in Milwaukee for many years, I am not sure what Madison has "going culturally" that Milwaukee doesn't.
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As someone who grew up in Madison, but lived in Milwaukee for many years, I am not sure what Madison has "going culturally" that Milwaukee doesn't.
Barry Alvarez holding court at Ruth’s Chris
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I've been to the two towns I listed. Milwaukee has them beat, and it's not close. The campuses are nice. The towns? Blah.
The thing is, most college students spend 90% of their lives on (or very near) campus. Even at MU. So I can see the allure of a nicer, sprawling campus that bigger state schools often provide. But if you actually want to take advantage of the things a bigger city has to offer, somewhere like Bloomington, Champaign, or State College is going to be a disappointment.
Everyone has their own idea of what makes a good town/city/campus, so it's pretty meaningless to compare and contrast. That being said, for a high-major college basketball player choosing their school, I'm guessing the beauty of the campus or nightlife in town ranks pretty low on the list of priorities - especially for a transfer who already recognizes that he's not going to get an opportunity to enjoy those things.
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Milwaukee is a nice, average Midwestern city. Nice Volk, situated on Lake Michigan.
But the weather there isn't at all favorable. I also lived in Ann Arbor which has the same climate - brutal winters and humid summers. Given a choice I would take A2 every time.
B1G college towns have so much more going culturally than Milwaukee. I hate to say it but Madison is preferable to Milwaukee as a place to live.
As someone who has actually lived in both of those cities, I prefer Milwaukee, and it isn't even close.
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Meanwhile in other news, DG on a visit to UNC. Quality PG in Love and Minnesota connection with Watson. Garcia seems to be the missing piece on that roster.
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Meanwhile in other news, DG on a visit to UNC. Quality PG in Love and Minnesota connection with Watson. Garcia seems to be the missing piece on that roster.
Yeah, I just don't see him ending up back in Milwaukee.
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Only four dog bus connections, hey?
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Meanwhile in other news, DG on a visit to UNC. Quality PG in Love and Minnesota connection with Watson. Garcia seems to be the missing piece on that roster.
Man, that trip to UNC really decimated our front court.
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Hard ta keep'em down on da farm after dave ceen Paree, hey?
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Only four dog bus connections, hey?
You talkin' 'bout the Silver Hound, Doc?
I remember the Silver Hound depot in Milwaukee was just down the street from MU. A group of us took the bus to Madison so we transited through the depot. That was a really nasty place.
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As someone who has actually lived in both of those cities, I prefer Milwaukee, and it isn't even close.
I have to admit that Real Chili is a major differentiator.
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Milwaukee is a nice, average Midwestern city. Nice Volk, situated on Lake Michigan.
But the weather there isn't at all favorable. I also lived in Ann Arbor which has the same climate - brutal winters and humid summers. Given a choice I would take A2 every time.
B1G college towns have so much more going culturally than Milwaukee. I hate to say it but Madison is preferable to Milwaukee as a place to live.
Ok, I know you have been hammered on this post by others, but other than Northwestern "in" Chicago what B1G town has more culture than Milwaukee? I completely disagree about Madison (a great big small town); so Iowa City, Lincoln, West Lafayette, Champaign....?
I don't live in Milwaukee, I'm in Colorado, and I've never meet a person who said they were going to Madison but many take trips to Milwaukee. Even people I know in Chicago like to take trips to Milwaukee, but not Madison (unless their kid goes to school there)
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I have to admit that Real Chili is a major differentiator.
;D
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Ok, I know you have been hammered on this post by others, but other than Northwestern "in" Chicago what B1G town has more culture than Milwaukee? I completely disagree about Madison (a great big small town); so Iowa City, Lincoln, West Lafayette, Champaign....?
I don't live in Milwaukee, I'm in Colorado, and I've never meet a person who said they were going to Madison but many take trips to Milwaukee. Even people I know in Chicago like to take trips to Milwaukee, but not Madison (unless their kid goes to school there)
Rutgers and Maryland probably count for NYC and DC if Northwestern counts for Chicago. But agreed every other one is a big small town or very small city pretty much functioning off the university.
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Rutgers and Maryland probably count for NYC and DC if Northwestern counts for Chicago. But agreed every other one is a big small town or very small city pretty much functioning off the university.
You think NYC has Milwaukee beat culturally? ;D
Good points.
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The thing is, most college students spend 90% of their lives on (or very near) campus. Even at MU. So I can see the allure of a nicer, sprawling campus that bigger state schools often provide. But if you actually want to take advantage of the things a bigger city has to offer, somewhere like Bloomington, Champaign, or State College is going to be a disappointment.
Everyone has their own idea of what makes a good town/city/campus, so it's pretty meaningless to compare and contrast. That being said, for a high-major college basketball player choosing their school, I'm guessing the beauty of the campus or nightlife in town ranks pretty low on the list of priorities - especially for a transfer who already recognizes that he's not going to get an opportunity to enjoy those things.
Brother Intro, you hit the nail right on the head. What I wanted in a college was very different than what my children wanted, for example. When my daughter lived in Milwaukee after she was graduated from SIU-Carbondale, she hated it with a passion, even though she lived right off Brady Street. Wasn't her cup of tea.
I can't think of a worse place to attend college than Champaign-Urbana. Anyplace in Mississippi, Tuscaloosa, AL, College Station, TX, Ames, IA or even Gainsville, FL may be almost as bad but, good grief, Champaign is the ugliest place on earth.
I loved Milwaukee because it was real. It was a gritty city back then with lots of cultural and social opportunities if you're willing to venture into the core of the city.
Madison, Ann Arbor, Bloomington and Iowa City are what college professors and college students wish the world was like. Milwaukee is what the world IS like.
Basketball players are wooed by facilities, coaches and the shot they might have at the NBA. The proximity to the Bucks and the ability to play in the Computing Castle is a positive. It's offset by a new coach whose system may not be to Dawson's liking and other universities with a proven track record at access to the NBA.
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Have you been to Bloomington or Stillwater? Or Tuscoloosa or Manhattan, KS? It's pretty easy to beat all of them.
dang you gotta be a UW guy. There’s a flip side to that coin. You been to Oxford, MS? Austin, TX? Athens, GA? Sure, there are some college-town dumps. You can cherry pick all day.
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dang you gotta be a UW guy. There’s a flip side to that coin. You been to Oxford, MS? Austin, TX? Athens, GA? Sure, there are some college-town dumps. You can cherry pick all day.
Haven't been to Oxford. Austin is not a college town, it's a city with a college in it. Athens is a bit of a dump.
But your point is correct, there are good college towns and bad ones. I would have loved College Station as an undergrad. As an adult, not feeling the love so much.
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Ok, I know you have been hammered on this post by others, but other than Northwestern "in" Chicago what B1G town has more culture than Milwaukee? I completely disagree about Madison (a great big small town); so Iowa City, Lincoln, West Lafayette, Champaign....?
I don't live in Milwaukee, I'm in Colorado, and I've never meet a person who said they were going to Madison but many take trips to Milwaukee. Even people I know in Chicago like to take trips to Milwaukee, but not Madison (unless their kid goes to school there)
many take trips to Milwaukee? I’ve probably lived in the Mke area too long. Why do folks want to travel to Mke? Harley tour? maybe for Summerfest? Sport fish Lake Michigan? (before Mke sewer dumps ultimately end that). Not being a smart-a$$, just curious.
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Haven't been to Oxford. Austin is not a college town, it's a city with a college in it. Athens is a bit of a dump.
But your point is correct, there are good college towns and bad ones. I would have loved College Station as an undergrad. As an adult, not feeling the love so much.
i took a job interview in Iowa City the week of a Ohio St football game. Not a bad college town imo. Gotta luv gold&black!, but not a bad town.
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many take trips to Milwaukee? I’ve probably lived in the Mke area too long. Why do folks want to travel to Mke? Harley tour? maybe for Summerfest? Sport fish Lake Michigan? (before Mke sewer dumps ultimately end that). Not being a smart-a$$, just curious.
For me anyway: Marquette games, zoo, breweries, restaurants, easier to get to Miller Park than Wrigley, visit college friends in the area, museums, etc.
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many take trips to Milwaukee? I’ve probably lived in the Mke area too long. Why do folks want to travel to Mke? Harley tour? maybe for Summerfest? Sport fish Lake Michigan? (before Mke sewer dumps ultimately end that). Not being a smart-a$$, just curious.
Yes to all, except fishing(I don't know many fishermen) Also, some of the other fests, random concerts, Bucks and Brewers games as well as for restaurants.
I'm not trying to imply that Milwaukee is a destination like LA, Chicago or New York but people do go there. I have yet to meet someone who went to Madison for a 'get-a-way'.
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I have yet to meet someone who went to Madison for a 'get-a-way'.
John Ellenson on line 1.
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Yes to all, except fishing(I don't know many fishermen) Also, some of the other fests, random concerts, Bucks and Brewers games as well as for restaurants.
I'm not trying to imply that Milwaukee is a destination like LA, Chicago or New York but people do go there. I have yet to meet someone who went to Madison for a 'get-a-way'.
Plenty of people like fishing out of Milwaukee on Lake Michigan. It’s not for me but I know more than a few people that come out of town to do it
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91 and humid in Chapel Hill and the campus is empty.
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many take trips to Milwaukee? I’ve probably lived in the Mke area too long. Why do folks want to travel to Mke? Harley tour? maybe for Summerfest? Sport fish Lake Michigan? (before Mke sewer dumps ultimately end that). Not being a smart-a$$, just curious.
I think this is a common problem for long time Milwaukee residents, they lose (if they ever had) sight of all there is to see and do. This isn't a knock on anyone, I think it's natural... but it's good to sometimes play tourist in your own city sometimes. Milwaukee is a perfect type of town for a small get away. You can come for a sporting event, festival, live show of some sort (concert, off broadway show, comedian, etc), or whatever it is you're into and then make a whole weekend or week out of it. Breweries, renting a boat or kayak on the river, museums, the restaurant scene that punches WAY above the city size, architecture tours, public market, art scene, proximity to numerous PGA quality golf courses, etc etc.
Er, and to stay on topic: This is part of why DG should stay at MU. ::)
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I genuinely love Milwaukee but outside of the art museum is there another museum worth going to? The public museum was super underwhelming when I went there, discovery world's cool if you have kids and even for early teens but the Art Museum is the only one I'd say is worth adding to a visitor's agenda... unless they're from a museumless town
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I genuinely love Milwaukee but outside of the art museum is there another museum worth going to? The public museum was super underwhelming when I went there, discovery world's cool if you have kids and even for early teens but the Art Museum is the only one I'd say is worth adding to a visitor's agenda... unless they're from a museumless town
Discovery World, if you allow that to be called a museum, is awesome for kids.
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Discovery World, if you allow that to be called a museum, is awesome for kids.
I genuinely love Milwaukee but outside of the art museum is there another museum worth going to? The public museum was super underwhelming when I went there, discovery world's cool if you have kids and even for early teens but the Art Museum is the only one I'd say is worth adding to a visitor's agenda... unless they're from a museumless town
It would seem that we agree.
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I genuinely love Milwaukee but outside of the art museum is there another museum worth going to? The public museum was super underwhelming when I went there, discovery world's cool if you have kids and even for early teens but the Art Museum is the only one I'd say is worth adding to a visitor's agenda... unless they're from a museumless town
The Harley museum is really cool and not just for the cycles which are cool to see the evolutions they went through. Lots of exhibits on motorcycle culture, advertising etc.
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The Harley museum is really cool and not just for the cycles which are cool to see the evolutions they went through. Lots of exhibits on motorcycle culture, advertising etc.
I'll second this. Not really a motorcycle person, but this was fascinating to me.
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It would seem that we agree.
Pfft ... you expect me to read your entire post?
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Ok, I know you have been hammered on this post by others, but other than Northwestern "in" Chicago what B1G town has more culture than Milwaukee? I completely disagree about Madison (a great big small town); so Iowa City, Lincoln, West Lafayette, Champaign....?
I don't live in Milwaukee, I'm in Colorado, and I've never meet a person who said they were going to Madison but many take trips to Milwaukee. Even people I know in Chicago like to take trips to Milwaukee, but not Madison (unless their kid goes to school there)
I think Milwaukee is a nice place. I wouldn't there (or anywhere in the Midwest) because of the climate which stinks.
Also, if you aren't white then Milwaukee can seem...parochial. I am speaking from first hand experience.
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(https://media.newyorker.com/photos/59095ebcc14b3c606c1058a0/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/CoverStory-Elephant-Liniers.jpg)
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I genuinely love Milwaukee but outside of the art museum is there another museum worth going to? The public museum was super underwhelming when I went there, discovery world's cool if you have kids and even for early teens but the Art Museum is the only one I'd say is worth adding to a visitor's agenda... unless they're from a museumless town
Definitely. Harley is as much an art and history museum as it is motorcycles. Villa Terrace is definitely unique and Pabst mansion would certainly draw a certain type of tourist. Plus uh, hello... NATIONAL BOBBLEHEAD HALL OF FAME?!
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I know that we all read vogue around here, so everyone has already seen this article, but I'll post a link anyway:
https://www.vogue.com/article/travel-guide-milwaukee-wisconsin-midwest-coolest-city
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I know that we all read vogue around here, so everyone has already seen this article, but I'll post a link anyway:
https://www.vogue.com/article/travel-guide-milwaukee-wisconsin-midwest-coolest-city
Send this link to all recruit parents
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Meanwhile in other news, DG on a visit to UNC. Quality PG in Love and Minnesota connection with Watson. Garcia seems to be the missing piece on that roster.
Chapel Hill :/
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I know that we all read vogue around here, so everyone has already seen this article, but I'll post a link anyway:
https://www.vogue.com/article/travel-guide-milwaukee-wisconsin-midwest-coolest-city
Thanks for that link. Reminded me about some stuff I miss, and taught me about some of the new stuff in Milwaukee.
I wanted to go to college in a city that had pro sports, so no small town for me.
I learned a lot about Milwaukee starting in my sophomore year when I became a big brother through the BBBS organization. I didn’t have a car, so my little brother and I went everywhere by bus. Went to parks and festivals and Leon’s and the lakefront and Brewers games, etc.
I’ve enjoyed going back to Milwaukee for MU games but haven’t done many “Milwaukee things.” I think I’m overdue!
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I live in what people call paradise, a vacation destination. World class beaches, fishing, diving, dining. Day trips to the most popular theme parks in the world.
I love visiting Milwaukee. You get a vibe an experience like no where else. Yes I’m biased as I went to Marquette, but my wife is from Southern California and my kids are Florida born and raised. They loved visiting Milwaukee. It’s just fun.
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I live in what people call paradise, a vacation destination. World class beaches, fishing, diving, dining. Day trips to the most popular theme parks in the world.
I love visiting Milwaukee. You get a vibe an experience like no where else. Yes I’m biased as I went to Marquette, but my wife is from Southern California and my kids are Florida born and raised. They loved visiting Milwaukee. It’s just fun.
My kids feel the same way. Milwaukee is cool on its own merits.
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I like Milwaukee a lot. My industry has a trade show in Milwaukee every May (the last 2 years obviously excepted), so it gives me a chance to revisit campus. My family has been to a number of reunions which allowed us to explore places of interest in Milwaukee. The city is so much nicer and has way more places of interest since graduation in 1991. Everything from the Riverwalk to 3rd Ward and explosion of beer gardens and I also feel like the lakefront parks are cleaner, more accessible and open than previously.
My wife mentioned a few times that "I think can live there." And I have no idea where that came from?
I had one kid where university in Milwaukee was her first choice and a second where it was in her final three.
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I've spent a good amount of time (anywhere from 3 months to 6ish years) in Milwaukee, Boston, Seattle, Chicago, and Indianapolis. As much as each one of those cities has some unique characteristics that I really liked, I think Milwaukee is still my favorite of the bunch and the place I'd probably live if I were to ever move.
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All we need now is for Dawson Garcia to read all of these Odes To Milwaukee and say, "You know what? I gotta go back to Marquette for another year - or maybe even two!"
Then we can win that elusive second national title and live happily ever after!
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many take trips to Milwaukee? I’ve probably lived in the Mke area too long. Why do folks want to travel to Mke? Harley tour? maybe for Summerfest? Sport fish Lake Michigan? (before Mke sewer dumps ultimately end that). Not being a smart-a$$, just curious.
since I initiated the question, definitely lots of good replies. I’ll have to look into a few of the suggestions, especially-so the Harley museum. I’ll invite young D Garcia to join me. Re-up for one more, young fella!
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With all the Milwaukee talk, I forgot - How long does Dawson have to make a decision on his location next year and still be eligible?
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Y'all have preemptively been celebratin' da 4th wit too many fifths. He gowne, hey?
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In the immortal words of long time Milwaukee resident, Gordon Gano..."Gone, Daddy, Gone".
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since I initiated the question, definitely lots of good replies. I’ll have to look into a few of the suggestions, especially-so the Harley museum. I’ll invite young D Garcia to join me. Re-up for one more, young fella!
Amen brother!
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In the immortal words of long time Milwaukee resident, Gordon Gano..."Gone, Daddy, Gone".
Violent Femmes coming to the newly opened Westville Music Center, formerly Connecticut Tennis Center, right down the street from my home. I'm tentatively planning to go.
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I think this is a common problem for long time Milwaukee residents, they lose (if they ever had) sight of all there is to see and do. This isn't a knock on anyone, I think it's natural... but it's good to sometimes play tourist in your own city sometimes. Milwaukee is a perfect type of town for a small get away. You can come for a sporting event, festival, live show of some sort (concert, off broadway show, comedian, etc), or whatever it is you're into and then make a whole weekend or week out of it. Breweries, renting a boat or kayak on the river, museums, the restaurant scene that punches WAY above the city size, architecture tours, public market, art scene, proximity to numerous PGA quality golf courses, etc etc.
Er, and to stay on topic: This is part of why DG should stay at MU. ::)
Not disagreeing with any of this. But “off Broadway” is not what you think it means. There is no such thing as off Broadway that is not in New York City.
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Dawson Garcia official list:
Marquette
UNC
Illinois
Arizona
Pro
https://twitter.com/jonrothstein/status/1411694236504821760?s=21
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Interesting, no Minnesota.
Anyone been to Champaign-Urbana?
Is it much of a town?
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Interesting, no Minnesota.
Anyone been to Champaign-Urbana?
Is it much of a town?
Champaign-Urbana not much of a town
Best scenario for MU is that Dawson goes Pro
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Dawson Garcia official list:
Marquette
UNC
Illinois
Arizona
Pro
https://twitter.com/jonrothstein/status/1411694236504821760?s=21
That’s the most definite “not Marquette” I’ve read without saying “not Marquette“. Moving on…
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Champaign-Urbana not much of a town
Best scenario for MU is that Dawson goes Pro
I have been to most of the Big Ten schools except PennSt and MD. Illinois is in the middle of nowhere, and was not impressed with any of there facilities. Last place I would go.
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Dawson Garcia official list:
Marquette
UNC
Illinois
Arizona
Pro
https://twitter.com/jonrothstein/status/1411694236504821760?s=21
I liked these replies to that tweet.
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Interesting, no Minnesota.
Anyone been to Champaign-Urbana?
Is it much of a town?
Spent a lot of time there in the "aughts." Depending on the way the wind blows, it often literally stinks. Very little there that anybody would care to see. Almost no culture. Very flat. Great restaurants as long as one considers Applebee's great.
U of I does have several majors that are well-regarded, and its basketball program has been anywhere from decent to outstanding for much of the last 40 years.
I'll be pretty impressed with Underwood's recruiting prowess if he ends up with Garcia.
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Good school in the armpit of the Midwest.
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Shaka is solid at developing bigs and has a few bigs in the NBA currently is my understanding is that correct
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Shaka is solid at developing bigs and has a few bigs in the NBA currently is my understanding is that correct
Sure, but I suspect Dawson sees himself as more of a perimeter guy?
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Boys…..DG would certainly not choose U of I because it’s a fun town or has great restaurants. Cmon.
He’s maybe spending 6-9 months in these potential landing spots(if at all). I don’t think he is checking real estate trends in Champaign.
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Dawson Garcia listed 100th in ESPN best available. First time I have seen him any list like this
https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable/_/position/ovr/page/4
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Boys…..DG would certainly not choose U of I because it’s a fun town or has great restaurants. Cmon.
He’s maybe spending 6-9 months in these potential landing spots(if at all). I don’t think he is checking real estate trends in Champaign.
FWIW, I totally agree. Somebody asked about Champaign, and I answered. I certainly did not mean to imply that just because Champaign is a dump, it would stop Garcia from going there. They've landed a lot of very good players over the years, and produced many first-round draft picks.
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Myles Turner, Jarrett Allen, Mo Bamba, Jaxson Hayes Are All Bigs who played for Shaka at Texas and All presently play in the NBA .
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Good school in the armpit of the Midwest.
Hey, that's an insult to armpit's everywhere.
But they do have legal recreational drugs, so maybe there is one positive about Illinois.
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Turner didn't play for Shaka. Bamba was a top 3 recruit. Allen a consensus top 15 recruit. So really can't give too much credit for their development. Hayes on the other hand was ranked in the 90s.
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Turner didn't play for Shaka. Bamba was a top 3 recruit. Allen a consensus top 15 recruit. So really can't give too much credit for their development. Hayes on the other hand was ranked in the 90s.
You could throw in Kai Jones.
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Turner didn't play for Shaka. Bamba was a top 3 recruit. Allen a consensus top 15 recruit. So really can't give too much credit for their development. Hayes on the other hand was ranked in the 90s.
How many highly ranked players don’t pan out? Plenty. JJJ was top 30. Quinerly couldn’t hack it at Nova. Grimes was disappointing at KU. Etc etc etc.
Even top talent needs to be “developed.”
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You could throw in Kai Jones.
Greg Brown and Jericho Sims are likely to join the list too.
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Greg Brown and Jericho Sims are likely to join the list too.
Definitely. As has been said before, if Dawson were choosing a school based solely on the coach's track record with big/big-adjacent players being drafted, it'd be MU.
However, I suspect that this is more of a business decision than a basketball one. There's hype surrounding any big-time transfer, and that hype will carry through the relatively-short NCAA season so long as they play decently. Outside of pulling off an AA season, he wouldn't get that attention if he stayed at MU. But if he goes to UNC or Arizona and averages 13 pts and 7 rebounds, he's talked about in the national media.
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But does the national media have a significant impact on his draft status? I think the NBA scouts know exactly who DG is. I don’t think changing his collegiate destination will have much bearing on that.
SA has put a lot of bigs in the league and is a defensive coach—which DG needs from the accounts that I have read. I hope he returns….although admittedly that is seeming less likely.
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But does the national media have a significant impact on his draft status? I think the NBA scouts know exactly who DG is. I don’t think changing his collegiate destination will have much bearing on that.
SA has put a lot of bigs in the league and is a defensive coach—which DG needs from the accounts that I have read. I hope he returns….although admittedly that is seeming less likely.
Maybe not a significant impact, but I think there's likely a bias that a guy who can put up good numbers at a school like UNC or Arizona is more draftable, even if he put up the same (or better) numbers at MU.
And I don't think we can discount the possible impact of NIL on some players. Marketability as a UNC player is no doubt higher than that of an MU player, and media exposure is part of that.
I do find it interesting that 3 of his 4 final schools all have new coaches this year, and it's not as if Underwood is that established at Illinois. I wouldn't say that any of those 4 are locks for a successful season, so you can't say Dawson is taking the path of least resistance.
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Maybe not a significant impact, but I think there's likely a bias that a guy who can put up good numbers at a school like UNC or Arizona is more draftable, even if he put up the same (or better) numbers at MU.
False.
A Big East schedule, especially with a tough OOC, would be viewed as good or even more impressive than most other schools and conferences, especially the way the PAC12 has been.
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And I don't think we can discount the possible impact of NIL on some players. Marketability as a UNC player is no doubt higher than that of an MU player, and media exposure is part of that.
I think in general an NIL at UNC is going to be worth more the one at MU. However, at MU Dawson is more likely to have the highest NIL value of MU players, whereas at UNC he is not likely to be the player in most demand. I have no idea how this would equate dollar wise, but the face of the program should get the best deals.
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Dawson has to go to school that showcases his talents the best, right now at MU he might be a star, any of the other schools he will not be the go to player.
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Win and you get in the national media.
Otherwise you need to be an AA star like Markus.
I don't think MU would be a bad choice.
Maybe even the best one.
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He gowne. Next man up, hey?
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Dawson has to go to school that showcases his talents the best, right now at MU he might be a star, any of the other schools he will not be the go to player.
i agree with this statement. However, someone pointed out in this thread or elsewhere that his usage rate was lower than you would expect for a star player. I think this was the result of him not being aggressive. He may in reality be more of a complementary player than a star.
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He has some issues, the NBA saw it, not quick, slow release, no hops, long way to go.
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Patrick Williams came off the bench at Florida State, averaged just 22.5 minutes per game and took only seven shots per game. And he was the #4 overall pick in the draft last year.
Keon Johnson was a part-time starter at Tennessee this year, and averaged 25.5 mpg and 9 attempts per game. He's a virtual lock to be a top 10 pick.
Zach LaVine came off the bench at UCLA, averaged 24 mpg and under 8 shots per game. He was a lottery pick.
Devin Booker started zero games in college, played 21.5 mpg and took 7.6 shots per game. Another lottery pick.
The moral of the story: NBA teams don't care whether you're showcased in college, how many shots you get, your team's success, etc. They care only about how you project to the next level.
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Patrick Williams came off the bench at Florida State, averaged just 22.5 minutes per game and took only seven shots per game. And he was the #4 overall pick in the draft last year.
Keon Johnson was a part-time starter at Tennessee this year, and averaged 25.5 mpg and 9 attempts per game. He's a virtual lock to be a top 10 pick.
Zach LaVine came off the bench at UCLA, averaged 24 mpg and under 8 shots per game. He was a lottery pick.
Devin Booker started zero games in college, played 21.5 mpg and took 7.6 shots per game. Another lottery pick.
The moral of the story: NBA teams don't care whether you're showcased in college, how many shots you get, your team's success, etc. They care only about how you project to the next level.
Ding, ding, ding
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It’s time to move on from Garcia. It’s clear the NBA has zero interest in him currently. It’s also clear that Garcia wants to “showcase” himself next year so that he can enter the draft next year. As others have stated, he needs major work with quickness, strength and athleticism. I think there’s a disconnect or misunderstanding from his camp between what he’s trying to showcase and what he actually needs to improve on.
For his sake, hope he finds what he’s looking for though. We fired the lame duck coach he committed to so it’s hard to have too many sour grapes about this one.
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Patrick Williams came off the bench at Florida State, averaged just 22.5 minutes per game and took only seven shots per game. And he was the #4 overall pick in the draft last year.
Keon Johnson was a part-time starter at Tennessee this year, and averaged 25.5 mpg and 9 attempts per game. He's a virtual lock to be a top 10 pick.
Zach LaVine came off the bench at UCLA, averaged 24 mpg and under 8 shots per game. He was a lottery pick.
Devin Booker started zero games in college, played 21.5 mpg and took 7.6 shots per game. Another lottery pick.
The moral of the story: NBA teams don't care whether you're showcased in college, how many shots you get, your team's success, etc. They care only about how you project to the next level.
Bingo, Pak. Best comment I read on Scoop today.
NBA scouts know Garcia already, and they will continue following him closely no matter where he plays.
Is there a coach who can help him improve on his weaknesses better than Shaka? Maybe, maybe not. Realistically, that's the only question he should be asking himself. But lots of emotion goes into these decisions, and there could be all kinds of reasons for whatever he decides, including some that might not be totally about basketball.
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When does Garcia need to decide?
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When does Garcia need to decide?
NBA? July 7.
Transfer? Whenever.
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Patrick Williams came off the bench at Florida State, averaged just 22.5 minutes per game and took only seven shots per game. And he was the #4 overall pick in the draft last year.
Keon Johnson was a part-time starter at Tennessee this year, and averaged 25.5 mpg and 9 attempts per game. He's a virtual lock to be a top 10 pick.
Zach LaVine came off the bench at UCLA, averaged 24 mpg and under 8 shots per game. He was a lottery pick.
Devin Booker started zero games in college, played 21.5 mpg and took 7.6 shots per game. Another lottery pick.
The moral of the story: NBA teams don't care whether you're showcased in college, how many shots you get, your team's success, etc. They care only about how you project to the next level.
Bingo. When Dawson led the G League combine in scoring and didn't get an invite to the NBA combine, it was clear that he doesn't have NBA big man defensive skills. That left him with the choice of trusting a first time HC (Davis or Lloyd), a coach not known for his bigs defensive prowess (Underwood & Cockburn), or a guy that is about to have sent 6 bigs to the NBA in 5 years.
Garcia was a high school star, a McDonald's All-American, and a stud Big East freshman. Then he led the G League Combine in scoring. He's never failed at anything basketball related in his life. I'm guessing they think the problem is Marquette rather than any failing of Dawson himself. But the reality is scouts saw the same holes in his game we did. Maybe he'll get that at UNC or somewhere else, but it's something he has to improve on, and just changing his environment won't be enough.
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Patrick Williams came off the bench at Florida State, averaged just 22.5 minutes per game and took only seven shots per game. And he was the #4 overall pick in the draft last year.
Keon Johnson was a part-time starter at Tennessee this year, and averaged 25.5 mpg and 9 attempts per game. He's a virtual lock to be a top 10 pick.
Zach LaVine came off the bench at UCLA, averaged 24 mpg and under 8 shots per game. He was a lottery pick.
Devin Booker started zero games in college, played 21.5 mpg and took 7.6 shots per game. Another lottery pick.
The moral of the story: NBA teams don't care whether you're showcased in college, how many shots you get, your team's success, etc. They care only about how you project to the next level.
+1000.
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Patrick Williams came off the bench at Florida State, averaged just 22.5 minutes per game and took only seven shots per game. And he was the #4 overall pick in the draft last year.
Keon Johnson was a part-time starter at Tennessee this year, and averaged 25.5 mpg and 9 attempts per game. He's a virtual lock to be a top 10 pick.
Zach LaVine came off the bench at UCLA, averaged 24 mpg and under 8 shots per game. He was a lottery pick.
Devin Booker started zero games in college, played 21.5 mpg and took 7.6 shots per game. Another lottery pick.
The moral of the story: NBA teams don't care whether you're showcased in college, how many shots you get, your team's success, etc. They care only about how you project to the next level.
This is definitely true of lottery picks, and even the first round in general. But I wonder if it's true of guys who go in the 2nd round (where Dawson is likely to be drafted in the event that he ever is drafted)? It feels like every year there are fringe guys from the big-name schools who go in the mid-to-late 2nd round, while the "studs" of other schools/leagues go undrafted. They may have the same questionable NBA projections, but coming out of UNC or Arizona (or UVA or Mich St) can (maybe?) get them over that draft hump.
Or it's just a feeling I have and it's completely false, as I'm sure someone will point out. However, it would be interesting to see the data on 2nd round picks and their origin.
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This is definitely true of lottery picks, and even the first round in general. But I wonder if it's true of guys who go in the 2nd round (where Dawson is likely to be drafted in the event that he ever is drafted)? It feels like every year there are fringe guys from the big-name schools who go in the mid-to-late 2nd round, while the "studs" of other schools/leagues go undrafted. They may have the same questionable NBA projections, but coming out of UNC or Arizona (or UVA or Mich St) can (maybe?) get them over that draft hump.
Or it's just a feeling I have and it's completely false, as I'm sure someone will point out. However, it would be interesting to see the data on 2nd round picks and their origin.
The NBA scouts high school kids just as much as college coaches do. Dawson has been involved in Team USA and McD's AA. The NBA knows exactly who Dawson is. They probably know guys ranked 50 spots below him as well.
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The NBA scouts high school kids just as much as college coaches do. Dawson has been involved in Team USA and McD's AA. The NBA knows exactly who Dawson is. They probably know guys ranked 50 spots below him as well.
Did he do anything at all ith McD's, since it was cancelled because of covid?
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Did he do anything at all ith McD's, since it was cancelled because of covid?
It's not about the game, it's the acknowledgement that he's a top 30-40 player in his HS class. Every NBA team is going to do their due diligence on him.
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Seems like Shaka's putting it out that defense will be stressed isn't designed to keep Dawson in the fold. Too bad if he leaves because that's one of the areas in which he needs to improve.
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Dawson announcing today.
UNC, Zona, Illinois or Marquette.
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Dawson announcing today.
UNC, Zona, Illinois or Marquette.
I fully expect he'll be going elsewhere but I do wonder why he bothered keeping Marquette in the mix if it was a long-shot or his last choice. I guess no point in burning any bridges or removing an option, I suppose.
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Dawson announcing today.
UNC, Zona, Illinois or Marquette.
Where are you seeing that he is announcing today? I saw Rothstein said he would be making a decision "soon" but that's it.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/s5z74f1yzMu9G/giphy.gif)
IIRC, the roller is related to a former player. Otule. Plenty Otule. Ergo, we got this.
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Where are you seeing that he is announcing today? I saw Rothstein said he would be making a decision "soon" but that's it.
Searching for the tweet ...
And it was wrong, it seems. Apologies for that.
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I'd put it between us and Illinois. Only really following U of I people (Frazier, Luke Good, Underwood's kid) and Marquette people on Insta. Still following Shaka and the rest of the team.
That's the only (non)substantive analysis I can provide. Gonna be a weird Gavitt Games.
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I'd put it between us and Illinois. Only really following U of I people (Frazier, Luke Good, Underwood's kid) and Marquette people on Insta. Still following Shaka and the rest of the team.
That's the only (non)substantive analysis I can provide. Gonna be a weird Gavitt Games.
You are way more optimistic than me. I don’t think we have much of a chance.
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You are way more optimistic than me. I don’t think we have much of a chance.
I don't either. But it is what it is.
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Well, he's withdrawn from the draft.
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1412495862119424004?s=20
https://247sports.com/Article/Dawson-Garcia-Marquette-Golden-Eagles-withdraws-from-2021-NBA-Draft-North-Carolina-Tar-Heels-Illinois-Fighting-Illini-Arizona-Wildcats-167468877/
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Wouldn't mind a Garcia for Kofi trade
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Yeah, a Cockburn wood feel pretty good 'bout now, hey?
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Well, he's withdrawn from the draft.
That’ll leave every GM scrambling.
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That’ll leave every GM scrambling.
Ha!
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Seems like Shaka's putting it out that defense will be stressed isn't designed to keep Dawson in the fold. Too bad if he leaves because that's one of the areas in which he needs to improve.
Effort on defense is the only part of the game that can be controlled. And after the last seven years of matador-like defense, anyone on the team who does not buy in to what Shaka is trying to do should leave, imo. It will be better for everyone.
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Yeah, a Cockburn wood feel pretty good 'bout now, hey?
Ah, nostalgia for youthful indiscretions only becomes more clouded with age. Aina?
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Jeff Goodman
@GoodmanHoops
I’d be very, very surprised if Dawson Garcia isn’t playing in Chapel Hill this year …
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Jeff Goodman
@GoodmanHoops
I’d be very, very surprised if Dawson Garcia isn’t playing in Chapel Hill this year …
Yeah he gowne.
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Jeff Goodman
@GoodmanHoops
I’d be very, very surprised if Dawson Garcia isn’t playing in Chapel Hill this year …
Marquette beat UNC in the 1977 title game, therefore, we have no need for a guy who wants to play there
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General comment is he has to go where he feels comfortable, both with the coach and the system.
It is very possible Mr. Garcia doesn't completely buy into Coach Shaka's system, approach and what Coach Shaka wants for him in the coming year.
If he doesn't, he needs to leave. If he does, he'll stay. It's that simple.
Either way, don't count on him anywhere for much more than a year.
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We beat them in 2021 also.
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General comment is he has to go where he feels comfortable, both with the coach and the system.
It is very possible Mr. Garcia doesn't completely buy into Coach Shaka's system, approach and what Coach Shaka wants for him in the coming year.
If he doesn't, he needs to leave. If he does, he'll stay. It's that simple.
Either way, don't count on him anywhere for much more than a year.
Looking at the Illinois boards and twitter, UNC has put out there that Dawson will make $1M in endorsements.
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Let’s get serious, it’s not about fit, it’s about the $$$.
Welcome to the new college basketball where it’s now legal to buy the best team.
Welcome to 10-13 super-teams and every other teams pretty much playing exhibition games that don’t matter.
General comment is he has to go where he feels comfortable, both with the coach and the system.
It is very possible Mr. Garcia doesn't completely buy into Coach Shaka's system, approach and what Coach Shaka wants for him in the coming year.
If he doesn't, he needs to leave. If he does, he'll stay. It's that simple.
Either way, don't count on him anywhere for much more than a year.
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Let’s get serious, it’s not about fit, it’s about the $$$.
Welcome to the new college basketball where it’s now legal to buy the best team.
Welcome to 10-13 super-teams and every playing pretty much playing exhibition games that don’t matter.
Chicken little thinking.
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I'm not so sure super teams are the way to success. 13 one-and-done players who have endorsement distractions doesn't seem ideal for continued success.
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Let’s get serious, it’s not about fit, it’s about the $$$.
Welcome to the new college basketball where it’s now legal to buy the best team.
Welcome to 10-13 super-teams and every other teams pretty much playing exhibition games that don’t matter.
lol
If you look at the NIL as a problem instead of an opportunity, you're a loser.
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Head in the sand thinking
:-*
Chicken little thinking.
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Eye'm buyin' what Shaka's sellin'. The rest can goe 'uck fay themselves, aina?
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Head in the sand thinking
:-*
Sorry old man, we'll get off your lawn
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Eye'm buyin' what Shaka's sellin'. The rest can goe 'uck fay themselves, aina?
How's your long-range jumper, and can you rebound or defend?
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Let’s get serious, it’s not about fit, it’s about the $$$.
Welcome to the new college basketball where it’s now legal to buy the best team.
Welcome to 10-13 super-teams and every other teams pretty much playing exhibition games that don’t matter.
Marquette plays in a major conference, plays in a top 40 market, has a substantial fan base in a top 3 market, has name/brand recognition, has a nationally known, charismatic head coach, and consistently ranks in the top 20 for attendance.
If MU can't succeed in the NIL era, it won't be because of any inherent disadvantages.
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Marquette plays in a major conference, plays in a top 40 market, has a substantial fan base in a top 3 market, has name/brand recognition, has a nationally known, charismatic head coach, and consistently ranks in the top 20 for attendance.
If MU can't succeed in the NIL era, it won't be because of any inherent disadvantages.
The biggest inherent disadvantage is the size of the alumni base. Sure, Marquette has a lot of positive things going for us, but the numbers game doesn't bode well. Madison has, what, 30k undergrads? We're a third of that.
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Welcome to 10-13 super-teams and every other teams pretty much playing exhibition games that don’t matter.
How's that any different from pre-NIL?
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The biggest inherent disadvantage is the size of the alumni base. Sure, Marquette has a lot of positive things going for us, but the numbers game doesn't bode well. Madison has, what, 30k undergrads? We're a third of that.
And yet we are consistently top 20 in the NCAA in attendance. And we don't have a football team to support.
I'm starting to worry we may be one of Point Warrior's 10-13 Super Teams. I hope he won't turn against us.
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If its UNC, the Duke/UNC games will be interesting to watch, especially if Garcia, despite his talents, scoring and rebounds, still has that small fraction of a second hesitancy before releasing his shot. Theo would love that.
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Confirmed by Goodman, Dawson to UNC.
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And confirmed on his Instagram. Good for him. It’s obviously a premier program.
Wonder how he will fit in with Manek, their transfer from Oklahoma who is a 5th year senior averaging double figures every year.
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And yet we are consistently top 20 in the NCAA in attendance. And we don't have a football team to support.
* There are fewer than 20 schools with a larger capacity than us
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* There are fewer than 20 schools with a larger capacity than us
I wonder why we choose to play in such a large venue? And I wonder why 336 teams choose to play in smaller venues?
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that mid season scramble to get UNC on the schedule was very nice of Marquette to schedule an unofficial visit for Dawson
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Sucks, but that's life.
With Garcia and DJ playing and improving under Shaka, we could have made a good run at an NCAA bid. Now ... we'll see.
Still excited to see what the program becomes in 2-3 years.
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"I’m going to be on the biggest stage and I think that we’re going to have a chance to win the National Championship.”
^Dawson quotes to 247
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"I’m going to be on the biggest stage and I think that we’re going to have a chance to win the National Championship.”
^Dawson quotes to 247
Ta hell wit im, aina?
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We could potentially see Theo send Dawson's weak sh!t into the tenth row of Cameron.
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Guess Dawson was tired of going to his own classes
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We could potentially see Theo send Dawson's weak sh!t into the tenth row of Cameron.
that assumes Theo actually gets playing time at Duke.
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Time to move on. We'll be fine.
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Ta hell wit im, aina?
no good luck. had a coaching and he wanted a new fit. dont b a dik
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no good luck. had a coaching and he wanted a new fit. dont b a dik
Next man up. He's no different than Krunti Hester. Just a tiny blip in the history of MU Bball.
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Perhaps Woj should have been better with players who have transferred to UNC, Duke, Syracuse, Oregon State and one who turned pro.
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The biggest inherent disadvantage is the size of the alumni base. Sure, Marquette has a lot of positive things going for us, but the numbers game doesn't bode well. Madison has, what, 30k undergrads? We're a third of that.
What's the size of Duke's alumni base? Villanova's? Gonzaga's?
Yes, I get that MU lacks the advantage of churning out 10,000 graduates every year, but as the schools above have shown, you can create a national profile despite that.
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We could potentially see Theo send Dawson's weak sh!t into the tenth row of Cameron.
Is this really necessary? You’d be slurping Garcia till you burped if he announced he was staying at MU. Instead, you just sound butthurt.
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Is this really necessary? You’d be slurping Garcia till you burped if he announced he was staying at MU. Instead, you just sound butthurt.
So you're anti Theo?
You don't like celebrating Theo winning on the biggest stage?
Why so butthurt about a Marquette GRADUATE?
WHY SO BUTTHURT?????
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Is this really necessary? You’d be slurping Garcia till you burped if he announced he was staying at MU. Instead, you just sound butthurt.
I'd love to have him here still and completely understand why he'd want to go to UNC for exposure.
I'm just noting Theo is known for big blocks and Dawson is known for getting weak shots blocked and now they will play each other multiple times next year.
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The green wieners are piling up
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:P
What's the size of Duke's alumni base? Villanova's? Gonzaga's?
Yes, I get that MU lacks the advantage of churning out 10,000 graduates every year, but as the schools above have shown, you can create a national profile despite that.
National profile and fan base size are not apples to apples with NIL and fan base size.
Bigger fan / alumni bases mean more donors with large business and big pockets. If you have 110,000 active alumni the chance that there is 1 that is extremely successful and also willing to “fund” players through NIL activities is less than if you have 342,000 active alumni and more than if you have 10,000 active alumni.
Alumni base and fan base size could potentially matter more now in the new NIL world. It remains to be seen.
This is not a knock against the NIL rules or a statement in favor. It’s just a reality.
PS. Good luck to Garcia. There was a change in coaches and he thinks he can do better elsewhere. UNC is tough to turn down. That said, my focus is on MU. So, good luck and good bye.
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What's the size of Duke's alumni base? Villanova's? Gonzaga's?
Yes, I get that MU lacks the advantage of churning out 10,000 graduates every year, but as the schools above have shown, you can create a national profile despite that.
I think the point was in the new era of NIL, the larger schools have a distinct advantage; even more than in the past. Heck, a Miami booster is paying $500,000+ per year to the football players and freely admits there is no profit expectation to his business, just legal incentives to play at the U. Good for the players but not so good for an already unbalanced playing field.
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Good luck, Dawson. Say hi to Theo a couple of times.
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My buddy who coached Dawson told me earlier in the week the choice was NC. I guess he was right on the money. I didn’t want to believe him. I hope Dawson does well there.
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I think the point was in the new era of NIL, the larger schools have a distinct advantage; even more than in the past. Heck, a Miami booster is paying $500,000+ per year to the football players and freely admits there is no profit expectation to his business, just legal incentives to play at the U. Good for the players but not so good for an already unbalanced playing field.
IMO, part of what this is going to do is redistribute money. School's fundraising will go down as boosters move money over to kids BUT with kids getting paid there's the chance that recruiting budgets and other amenity costs could potentially go down. Coaches may take a little haircut as well but they may trade for it, if their recruiting gets easier.
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I think the point was in the new era of NIL, the larger schools have a distinct advantage; even more than in the past. Heck, a Miami booster is paying $500,000+ per year to the football players and freely admits there is no profit expectation to his business, just legal incentives to play at the U. Good for the players but not so good for an already unbalanced playing field.
I just find it so interesting that people by and large didn't seem to be all that concerned about an unbalanced playing field....until the players got NIL rights. NOW it's a problem.
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I think the point was in the new era of NIL, the larger schools have a distinct advantage; even more than in the past. Heck, a Miami booster is paying $500,000+ per year to the football players and freely admits there is no profit expectation to his business, just legal incentives to play at the U. Good for the players but not so good for an already unbalanced playing field.
Yep, good for the players ... and it's about time. Everybody else has been getting rich on their backs for generations.
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How dare Dawson only think of himself and his future and what's best for him, and not those of us he left behind that he has never met (teal)
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"I’m going to be on the biggest stage and I think that we’re going to have a chance to win the National Championship.”
^Dawson quotes to 247
UNC goes from 27 to 23 via T-Rank. Not much of a bump.
https://barttorvik.com/rostercast.php?run=1&team=North%20Carolina&player=Dawson%20Garcia%3BMarquette
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Pun intended or un-intended?
My buddy who coached Dawson told me earlier in the week the choice was NC. I guess he was right on the money. I didn’t want to believe him. I hope Dawson does well there.
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UNC goes from 27 to 23 via T-Rank. Not much of a bump.
https://barttorvik.com/rostercast.php?run=1&team=North%20Carolina&player=Dawson%20Garcia%3BMarquette
Marquette coming in at 87:
78 Vanderbilt
79 Nebraska
80 Liberty
81 Murray State
82 Buffalo
83 Northern Iowa
84 Missouri State
85 TCU
86 Cincinnati
87 Marquette
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"I’m going to be on the biggest stage and I think that we’re going to have a chance to win the National Championship.”
^Dawson quotes to 247
It's a big stage, but he's delusional if he thinks they're a title contender.
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Chapel Hill :/
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Losing DJ was bigger. Looking forward to seeing the newcomers get his minutes honestly. Figured he was gone regardless of the transfer.
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I just find it so interesting that people by and large didn't seem to be all that concerned about an unbalanced playing field....until the players got NIL rights. NOW it's a problem.
The FBI cared, the national media cared, the NCAA cared and lots of fans cared. IMHO there seems to be less care about it NOW with NIL in place.
It is probably a good thing overall but the people who don't think this will effect the landscape of college sports are ignorant in my opinion. Maybe Oregon State is the new Gonzaga and Nebraska is the new Villanova; the money will get paid to athletes and the highest bidder will win. If I were a college athlete I would love this.
I don't see this as unfair to players but it is a drastic change that will weed out the small schools. Probably for the best.
Maybe it is time for the Big East, AAC, A10 and others to break off from the NCAA instead of the P5 doing so first.
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It's a big stage, but he's delusional if he thinks they're a title contender.
agreed. way too streaky of a backcourt and thin on the wing. nice 3 headed monster with Bacot, Manek & Dawson downlow though.
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The FBI cared, the national media cared, the NCAA cared and lots of fans cared. IMHO there seems to be less care about it NOW with NIL in place.
It is probably a good thing overall but the people who don't think this will effect the landscape of college sports are ignorant in my opinion. Maybe Oregon State is the new Gonzaga and Nebraska is the new Villanova; the money will get paid to athletes and the highest bidder will win. If I were a college athlete I would love this.
I don't see this as unfair to players but it is a drastic change that will weed out the small schools. Probably for the best.
Maybe it is time for the Big East, AAC, A10 and others to break off from the NCAA instead of the P5 doing so first.
P5 have a plan in place to run all tournaments for all sports? Set up schedules without mid and low majors? Let me know when they do, thanks
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The FBI cared, the national media cared, the NCAA cared and lots of fans cared. IMHO there seems to be less care about it NOW with NIL in place.
It is probably a good thing overall but the people who don't think this will effect the landscape of college sports are ignorant in my opinion. Maybe Oregon State is the new Gonzaga and Nebraska is the new Villanova; the money will get paid to athletes and the highest bidder will win. If I were a college athlete I would love this.
I don't see this as unfair to players but it is a drastic change that will weed out the small schools. Probably for the best.
Maybe it is time for the Big East, AAC, A10 and others to break off from the NCAA instead of the P5 doing so first.
You don't want this if you're a Marquette fan. Unless you enjoy playing a meaningless tournament every year and watching the P5 schools play their own.
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P5 have a plan in place to run all tournaments for all sports? Set up schedules without mid and low majors? Let me know when they do, thanks
Running tournaments is not that hard, every conference does it in every sport and the P5 has more than enough money to do so. In fact, they would make/keep more money than have to share it with other schools.
I'm sure some schools, even if not NCAA schools, will still play P5 schools for a payday and butt kicking.
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You don't want this if you're a Marquette fan. Unless you enjoy playing a meaningless tournament every year and watching the P5 schools play their own.
Most definitely a Marquette fan. Not having a somewhat equal shot at the best players and coaches would make every season meaningless.
Just look at DePaul, they can't draw flies to their games and they are in the Big East. Competitive balance, or the opportunity for it, draws fans. Pro sports does this and they make bank.
I'd be very happy if MU won a tournament vs Gonzaga or Nova or Houston, etc.
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Running tournaments is not that hard, every conference does it in every sport and the P5 has more than enough money to do so. In fact, they would make/keep more money than have to share it with other schools.
I'm sure some schools, even if not NCAA schools, will still play P5 schools for a payday and butt kicking.
Then why haven’t they? Because they have the ncaa to do so. They also have the ncaa to take the slings and arrows they otherwise would have to take.
I’m all for the death of the NCAA. Let the P5 break away. Do away with the pretense of amateurism and student athlete completely. Colleges amd athletics co-exist strictly for financial purposes. Those that believe otherwise haven’t been paying attention for over a century
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Peace out
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Losers see NIL as a threat
Winners see NIL as an opportunity
I'm pretty sure given his comments on the Portal that Shaka is in the winning camp.
Evolve people, it's good for you.
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Guess Dawson was tired of going to his own classes
I see no reason for teal on this one...
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Then why haven’t they? Because they have the ncaa to do so. They also have the ncaa to take the slings and arrows they otherwise would have to take.
I’m all for the death of the NCAA. Let the P5 break away. Do away with the pretense of amateurism and student athlete completely. Colleges amd athletics co-exist strictly for financial purposes. Those that believe otherwise haven’t been paying attention for over a century
I mostly agree. But I think colleges and athletics can co-exist, just look at DIII and DII. They are the majority of the NCAA landscape. While the NCAA is not perfect, they do serve the vast majority of their schools and students well. People like to focus on the Duke's and Alabama's and USC's of the world (where there needs change) but forget the 10,000+ student athletes that are well served.
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the people who don't think this will effect the landscape of college sports are ignorant
I don't know anybody here who said this wouldn't be a change, with many saying it would be a big change.
There have been other huge changes in the history of college sports. The world survived them all.
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I mostly agree. But I think colleges and athletics can co-exist, just look at DIII and DII. They are the majority of the NCAA landscape. While the NCAA is not perfect, they do serve the vast majority of their schools and students well. People like to focus on the Duke's and Alabama's and USC's of the world (where there needs change) but forget the 10,000+ student athletes that are well served.
NIL is available to all student athletes
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NIL is available to all student athletes
Ok, agreed. But my post was about the fact that DII & DIII college sports are a good thing even though there is no money to be made by the schools. Unless you think Loras College is making bank on its swimming team like Alabama football does, I don't get your point.
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Ok, agreed. But my post was about the fact that DII & DIII college sports are a good thing even though there is no money to be made by the schools. Unless you think Loras College is making bank on its swimming team like Alabama football does, I don't get your point.
Loras makes a lot of money on their swimming team. Likely the vast majority of that team isn’t coming to Loras unless they are swimming. Athletics are just admissions strategies these days for most D2 and D3 schools.
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People like to focus on the Duke's and Alabama's and USC's of the world (where there needs change) but forget the 10,000+ student athletes that are well served.
Prior to this month, the NCAA failed D1, D2, and D3 athletes equally when it came to NIL
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I just find it so interesting that people by and large didn't seem to be all that concerned about an unbalanced playing field....until the players got NIL rights. NOW it's a problem.
Fluff,
I think it more had to do with how/why there was an unbalanced playing field. Having a reputation as a blue blood and getting better players was felt to be earned. This led to a snowball effect of more recognition/TV appearances to the more successful programs and was self sustaining. Everyone at least had an opportunity to hire the right coach in that scenario and start that self sustaining success (example Jay Wright at Villanova or possibly Buzz Williams at MU if he stayed).
Now the imbalance has the potential to be unfair based solely on university size and wealth of alumni bases. I think many people are concerned about that type of imbalance rather than well earned advantages of the top teams over time. I could be wrong but I think that is where the angst is coming from.
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Loras makes a lot of money on their swimming team. Likely the vast majority of that team isn’t coming to Loras unless they are swimming. Athletics are just admissions strategies these days for most D2 and D3 schools.
If there wasn't a swim team at Loras, wouldn't those admission spots would be filled by regular students? Their acceptance rate isn't 100%
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Loras makes a lot of money on their swimming team. Likely the vast majority of that team isn’t coming to Loras unless they are swimming. Athletics are just admissions strategies these days for most D2 and D3 schools.
Admission strategies just like a business school, nursing program or economics degree or maybe a nice dorm. I guess we're saying the entire higher education system is a money making enterprise? In a perfect world college would be free and professors and administrators would donate their time? Then schools could rid themselves of sports, arts, music, nice campuses, etc.
So does Marquette have an art museum because they make 'lots' of money off it? Does MU have club rugby because they make money off it? It's all about creating a great college experience. I think that is a good thing. The other option, if you don't want to feed into college capitalism, is on-line college. Many choose that way.
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Loras makes a lot of money on their swimming team. Likely the vast majority of that team isn’t coming to Loras unless they are swimming. Athletics are just admissions strategies these days for most D2 and D3 schools.
This is true. At those levels, the coaches are recruiting for the school to bring in tuition-paying students and you often see big rosters. Mount Union has 137 players on its football roster. That's more than 6% of their student body. That's a lot of tuition money.
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Fluff,
I think it more had to do with how/why there was an unbalanced playing field. Having a reputation as a blue blood and getting better players was felt to be earned. This led to a snowball effect of more recognition/TV appearances to the more successful programs and was self sustaining. Everyone at least had an opportunity to hire the right coach in that scenario and start that self sustaining success (example Jay Wright at Villanova or possibly Buzz Williams at MU if he stayed).
Now the imbalance has the potential to be unfair based solely on university size and wealth of alumni bases. I think many people are concerned about that type of imbalance rather than well earned advantages of the top teams over time. I could be wrong but I think that is where the angst is coming from.
Excellent points.
I haven't spent the time to research all the ins and outs of NIL. but I consider myself not unlike the vast majority of college sports fans. So, here's a perhaps simplistic question, but what's to stop Warren Buffet (Nebraska) or Phil Knight (Oregon) or any other billionaire, from essentially buying the best basketball team in the nation. If Garcia is going to "make $1mm" at UNC, for $20mm Oregon could field a pretty nice hoops team and Nike would merely have to shell out pocket change. I'm sure they have enough attorneys willing to figure out how to do it within the "rules or guidelines" of NIL.
There is probably a lot I'm missing, but I promise you, this is what a lot of casual fans are wondering.
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Excellent points.
I haven't spent the time to research all the ins and outs of NIL. but I consider myself not unlike the vast majority of college sports fans. So, here's a perhaps simplistic question, but what's to stop Warren Buffet (Nebraska) or Phil Knight (Oregon) or any other billionaire, from essentially buying the best basketball team in the nation. If Garcia is going to "make $1mm" at UNC, for $20mm Oregon could field a pretty nice hoops team and Nike would merely have to shell out pocket change. I'm sure they have enough attorneys willing to figure out how to do it within the "rules or guidelines" of NIL.
There is probably a lot I'm missing, but I promise you, this is what a lot of casual fans are wondering.
Thirteen one-and-done players with endorsement distractions doesn't seem like a great strategy.
Even teams that can pay are going to have to compete with other teams that can pay.
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Meh, appreciate the good games he gave us and the deficiencies as well. UNC might be a good landing spot for him. Good luck. Next!
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Yeah, a Cockburn wood feel pretty good 'bout now, hey?
Ice Cream You Scream We all Scream for Cockburn.
But seriously that said hope Marquette lands Kofi.
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Ice Cream You Scream We all Scream for Cockburn.
But seriously that said hope Marquette lands Kofi.
He ain’t leaving Illinois for Marquette
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JFL: Your table is ready.
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Losers see NIL as a threat
Winners see NIL as an opportunity
I'm pretty sure given his comments on the Portal that Shaka is in the winning camp.
Evolve people, it's good for you.
Amen!!!
Some people are bothered by change. Any change. I think NIL will help MU a lot more than most schools.
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Excellent points.
I haven't spent the time to research all the ins and outs of NIL. but I consider myself not unlike the vast majority of college sports fans. So, here's a perhaps simplistic question, but what's to stop Warren Buffet (Nebraska) or Phil Knight (Oregon) or any other billionaire, from essentially buying the best basketball team in the nation. If Garcia is going to "make $1mm" at UNC, for $20mm Oregon could field a pretty nice hoops team and Nike would merely have to shell out pocket change. I'm sure they have enough attorneys willing to figure out how to do it within the "rules or guidelines" of NIL.
There is probably a lot I'm missing, but I promise you, this is what a lot of casual fans are wondering.
Oregon isn't the only school that gets Nike money.
The business people at Nike are a lot smarter than to do something like you suggested. NIL also helps businesses giving out the money. What would be the benefit of giving $20 mil to Oregon? A team on the West Coast that few people outside of PAC-10 fans ever see. How would doing this help Nike's bottom line?
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Oregon isn't the only school that gets Nike money.
The business people at Nike are a lot smarter than to do something like you suggested. NIL also helps businesses giving out the money. What would be the benefit of giving $20 mil to Oregon? A team on the West Coast that few people outside of PAC-10 fans ever see. How would doing this help Nike's bottom line?
Would it have to? Would it hurt it? Not gonna lie, if I had a net worth north of 50 bil, I wouldn't think twice about throwing 50 mil per season in to see MU be an elite program, even if it didn't help my company.
I think this entire scenario is unlikely, because billionaires don't think like that (that's why they're billionaires), but 20 mil is literally chump change to Knight.
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Fluff,
I think it more had to do with how/why there was an unbalanced playing field. Having a reputation as a blue blood and getting better players was felt to be earned. This led to a snowball effect of more recognition/TV appearances to the more successful programs and was self sustaining. Everyone at least had an opportunity to hire the right coach in that scenario and start that self sustaining success (example Jay Wright at Villanova or possibly Buzz Williams at MU if he stayed).
Now the imbalance has the potential to be unfair based solely on university size and wealth of alumni bases. I think many people are concerned about that type of imbalance rather than well earned advantages of the top teams over time. I could be wrong but I think that is where the angst is coming from.
However you want to justify it in your mind is fine with me. Interesting that the “earned advantage” applies to the coach but not the players.
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If there wasn't a swim team at Loras, wouldn't those admission spots would be filled by regular students? Their acceptance rate isn't 100%
No likely not. Schools still have some minimum standard so they won’t just take anyone. And likely are well short of capacity.
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Would it have to? Would it hurt it? Not gonna lie, if I had a net worth north of 50 bil, I wouldn't think twice about throwing 50 mil per season in to see MU be an elite program, even if it didn't help my company.
I think this entire scenario is unlikely, because billionaires don't think like that (that's why they're billionaires), but 20 mil is literally chump change to Knight.
I agree generally you are right with what you say. But it's not just Oregon. And the meter isn't starting at $0. Nike spends over $6 BILLION annually on endorsements and sponsorships, etc. So while $20 mil is pocket change to Nike, when you consider all of their schools and all of the players at those schools, you start talking about real money.
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I agree generally you are right with what you say. But it's not just Oregon. And the meter isn't starting at $0. Nike spends over $6 BILLION annually on endorsements and sponsorships, etc. So while $20 mil is pocket change to Nike, when you consider all of their schools and all of the players at those schools, you start talking about real money.
Fair.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of NIL, and think it's long overdue, but at the same time, I can see flaws in the newly introduced system. I think, like just about everything, there's a lot more grey in here than black & white, and it's possible to both want to see the athletes get their fair share, but also see how the system can be exploited (not that the current one isn't).
Given how much the NCAA fought this initially, I would imagine that they will fight every year to "refine" it so that they continue to get as large of a chunk of the pie as possible. My hope is that an appropriate balance can be achieved. What that balance is remains TBD.
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Fair.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of NIL, and think it's long overdue, but at the same time, I can see flaws in the newly introduced system. I think, like just about everything, there's a lot more grey in here than black & white, and it's possible to both want to see the athletes get their fair share, but also see how the system can be exploited (not that the current one isn't).
Given how much the NCAA fought this initially, I would imagine that they will fight every year to "refine" it so that they continue to get as large of a chunk of the pie as possible. My hope is that an appropriate balance can be achieved. What that balance is remains TBD.
Yeah, I think you're right that there are going to be many bumps in the road. They'll need to be dealt with, and hopefully a solid framework will evolve. But it could be a bit rocky for a couple years.
One thing we can be sure of is that there will be hustlers crawling out of the woodwork trying to take advantage of both athletes and schools.
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Amen!!!
Some people are bothered by change. Any change. I think NIL will help MU a lot more than most schools.
Doubt it. I think we lose that battle 10 out of 10 times to larger public universities, hey?
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Doubt it. I think we lose that battle 10 out of 10 times to larger public universities, hey?
Why? Because of more boosters?
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As fans we're looking at MU thru blue and gold glasses. In reality, on a national stage we're just another team.
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As fans we're looking at MU thru blue and gold glasses. In reality, on a national stage we're just another team.
I don't disagree, but won't the majority of licensing money be based locally rather than nationally?
My reasoning is that being in a fairly large city will benefit MU (if the team is successful, of course). Lots and lots of smallish businesses with smaller advertising budgets.
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As fans we're looking at MU thru blue and gold glasses. In reality, on a national stage we're just another team.
That’s simply not true. MU may not be a national title contender for any number of reasons. But no school with MU’s budget, arena/NBA ties, and attendance is “just another team”.
Disappointing as the last decade has been, MU as a program, financially and from a business of basketball, is closer to Duke than it is to SLU or Dayton or Loyola.
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When was the last time we danced? Out of sight, out of mind. I'm fully confident Shaka can bring back the luster, but it will take some time. The hiring of Woj set us back further than we realize. Currently, I just don't think we're on the same playing field with the perennial winners.
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That’s simply not true. MU may not be a national title contender for any number of reasons. But no school with MU’s budget, arena/NBA ties, and attendance is “just another team”.
Disappointing as the last decade has been, MU as a program, financially and from a business of basketball, is closer to Duke than it is to SLU or Dayton or Loyola.
All of this plus, most Power 5 schools are funneling their donors to the O Line's NIL before even considering hoops.
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When was the last time we danced? Out of sight, out of mind. I'm fully confident Shaka can bring back the luster, but it will take some time. The hiring of Woj set us back further than we realize. Currently, I just don't think we're on the same playing field with the perennial winners.
We haven't been on the same playing field as the perennial winners for about four decades.
The good news is, neither are about 340 other schools.
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Yep, good for the players ... and it's about time. Everybody else has been getting rich on their backs for generations.
not being sour, if Jimbob’s Used Cars wants to pay a guy, ok, I guess. But, these D-I students are getting a full ride, yes? (What’s MU cost for a full year these days?…15 credits each semester, room/board, books)
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Looks like Theo John and Dawson Garcia will be squaring up a couple times against each other this coming season.
Two Twin City players ending up in NC.
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Looks like Theo John and Dawson Garcia will be squaring up a couple times against each other this coming season.
Two Twin City players ending up in NC.
Actually, Theo will be squaring off against Bacot individually.
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not being sour, if Jimbob’s Used Cars wants to pay a guy, ok, I guess. But, these D-I students are getting a full ride, yes? (What’s MU cost for a full year these days?…15 credits each semester, room/board, books)
How much is MU making off the free ride?
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not being sour, if Jimbob’s Used Cars wants to pay a guy, ok, I guess. But, these D-I students are getting a full ride, yes? (What’s MU cost for a full year these days?…15 credits each semester, room/board, books)
What does one have to do with the other?
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What does one have to do with the other?
Umm, …$$$$$
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How much is MU making off the free ride?
I give. How much? But is that the deal...MU rakes, so the student should get tuition, room/board, and some cake?
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Umm, …$$$$$
Do people STILL not realize NIL money doesn't come from the schools?
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However you want to justify it in your mind is fine with me. Interesting that the “earned advantage” applies to the coach but not the players.
Fluff,
No justification. The best coaches get the best players. Over time this occurred at NC with Deane Smith, Marquette with Al, indiana with knight, etc, etc. You became a blue blood or a great basketball school because of the coach. This lead to easier recruiting, more exposure by the media. The snow ball effect. This was earned by these coaches. The players followed. The fan base followed after that. Marquette would not be remotely the same basketball school without Al. You are kidding yourself if you think the players that won the NC would have been there regardless. Our program sank like a rock without Al. There is no rationalization. That is reality.
The competitive advantage changed with coaches. The best attracted the best players. Programs were built on their backs. This was earned over time. Penn State would have been a blue blood and not Duke if coach K decided to set up shop there for 40 years.
People fear that buying players is the new norm and the new way to compete.
I don’t care either way. If MU can’t compete in the new basketball world and drops basketball it won’t matter in the long run. I do hope our alums come up with the cash though. It’s more fun to be good.
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Yes, but it comes from boosters for the school.
Do people STILL not realize NIL money doesn't come from the schools?
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Fluff,
No justification. The best coaches get the best players. Over time this occurred at NC with Deane Smith, Marquette with Al, indiana with knight, etc, etc. You became a blue blood or a great basketball school because of the coach. This lead to easier recruiting, more exposure by the media. The snow ball effect. This was earned by these coaches. The players followed. The fan base followed after that. Marquette would not be remotely the same basketball school without Al. You are kidding yourself if you think the players that won the NC would have been there regardless. Our program sank like a rock without Al. There is no rationalization. That is reality.
The competitive advantage changed with coaches. The best attracted the best players. Programs were built on their backs. This was earned over time. Penn State would have been a blue blood and not Duke if coach K decided to set up shop there for 40 years.
People fear that buying players is the new norm and the new way to compete.
I don’t care either way. If MU can’t compete in the new basketball world and drops basketball it won’t matter in the long run. I do hope our alums come up with the cash though. It’s more fun to be good.
Shooter
I agree with this analysis.
Except for the last paragraph.
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Fluff,
No justification. The best coaches get the best players. Over time this occurred at NC with Deane Smith, Marquette with Al, indiana with knight, etc, etc. You became a blue blood or a great basketball school because of the coach. This lead to easier recruiting, more exposure by the media. The snow ball effect. This was earned by these coaches. The players followed. The fan base followed after that. Marquette would not be remotely the same basketball school without Al. You are kidding yourself if you think the players that won the NC would have been there regardless. Our program sank like a rock without Al. There is no rationalization. That is reality.
The competitive advantage changed with coaches. The best attracted the best players. Programs were built on their backs. This was earned over time. Penn State would have been a blue blood and not Duke if coach K decided to set up shop there for 40 years.
People fear that buying players is the new norm and the new way to compete.
I don’t care either way. If MU can’t compete in the new basketball world and drops basketball it won’t matter in the long run. I do hope our alums come up with the cash though. It’s more fun to be good.
Shooter, go to bed, you’re drunk.
If you don’t see how NIL is a BOON for #mubb then you obviously didn’t take Logic 101. All the chicken littles out there, MUBB is about burn the rest of the conference down.
NIL is a (greatly) pivotal time in MUBB.
We’re gonna soar.
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Lens,
I’m merely pointing out why there were inequities in the old system. It was mainly long term great coaching which led to getting better players which led to blue blood status.
Now it’s NIL money and coaching. The best coaches will now go to the schools with the NIL advantage. Some of those will be the same schools who are already blue bloods because of their previous advantages. Some programs will come out of nowhere because the cash will be too hard to pass up for the players.
I’m fine with it. I hope you are right and MU fans and alumni crush it. If we don’t and it’s too hard to recruit based on this new variable, Shaka will eventually move on to greener pastures.
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Yes, but it comes from boosters for the school.
Nope
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The NC media take on UNC's gain (and MU's loss) ...
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/article252650098.html?
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Yes, but it comes from boosters for the school.
Can you offer some examples, please?
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Can you offer some examples, please?
We can get tied up with semantics, but I think you need only search "boosters and NIL" to find that boosters actively getting involved in the NIL business to help their alma mater (or favorite school) is not a myth. They aren't doing this to benefit their businesses; they are doing it to benefit the schools they support by attracting high end talent to the programs at their schools.
I thought this was an interesting Clemson opinion article that describes some of the thoughts on how NIL will affect different schools. More importantly, it feels like a piece trying to mobilize boosters to get involved; basically an arms race type article. https://rubbingtherock.com/2021/07/08/clemson-football-boosters-future/
Note reference to Frank Martin saying there is a HS bball kid with a seven figure offer already from a booster. Martin's thoughts are equally interesting:
https://247sports.com/college/south-carolina/Article/NIL-landscape-Frank-Martin-South-Carolina-Gamecocks-mens-basketball-167514581/
Again, I am not saying this is bad or good. It is change and it is reality. You either adapt or you get stuck reminiscing about glory days. But, to pretend that boosters aren't going to be working "for" their school's benefit (regardless of how much or little input the actual school has), is to stick your head in the sand.
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Does Gruber pay players or donate to the school now? CPI? Same decision. I think if you are the athletic department you have to grease these wheels. The smart money is on paying the players so that you can field a competitive program. That will benefit the school in the long run. Marquette really needs to be stressing that to all donors with businesses. There is opportunity out there like Lens said.
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Ironic moment/poke at Wojo that Garcia took his talents to UNC? :o
Good luck to DG, should be an interesting year for Heels with new coach
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So when does Garcia come off the scholarship table and is there any senior transfer worth adding?
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Most definitely a Marquette fan. Not having a somewhat equal shot at the best players and coaches would make every season meaningless.
Just look at DePaul, they can't draw flies to their games and they are in the Big East. Competitive balance, or the opportunity for it, draws fans. Pro sports does this and they make bank.
I'd be very happy if MU won a tournament vs Gonzaga or Nova or Houston, etc.
HELL FOOKIN NO.
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As fans we're looking at MU thru blue and gold glasses. In reality, on a national stage we're just another team.
You're right, Doc.
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Thanks MUCam. Those saying “but the money is not coming from the schools” is just a stupid argument.
Do you think a Miami business giving every Miami Fb player $500 / month is purely the best interest of that business or because they are a huge Miami FB booster?
So how did NC lineup $1M of NIL for Dawson in about 4 days? Pretty sure some booster stepped up somewhere.
It’s all about the money, there are no rules are recruiting anymore (see Frank Martin article). And college bball will forever be changed. College players should get a cut of the action, but this version of NIL will have some serious negative consequences for current college basketball. It is basically paid ball with no salary cap, no contracts, no rules.
We can get tied up with semantics, but I think you need only search "boosters and NIL" to find that boosters actively getting involved in the NIL business to help their alma mater (or favorite school) is not a myth. They aren't doing this to benefit their businesses; they are doing it to benefit the schools they support by attracting high end talent to the programs at their schools.
I thought this was an interesting Clemson opinion article that describes some of the thoughts on how NIL will affect different schools. More importantly, it feels like a piece trying to mobilize boosters to get involved; basically an arms race type article. https://rubbingtherock.com/2021/07/08/clemson-football-boosters-future/
Note reference to Frank Martin saying there is a HS bball kid with a seven figure offer already from a booster. Martin's thoughts are equally interesting:
https://247sports.com/college/south-carolina/Article/NIL-landscape-Frank-Martin-South-Carolina-Gamecocks-mens-basketball-167514581/
Again, I am not saying this is bad or good. It is change and it is reality. You either adapt or you get stuck reminiscing about glory days. But, to pretend that boosters aren't going to be working "for" their school's benefit (regardless of how much or little input the actual school has), is to stick your head in the sand.
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Note reference to Frank Martin saying there is a HS bball kid with a seven figure offer already from a booster.
Well that would still be a violation under the new NIL rules, unless FMV is 7 figures for what he will be advertising, and is not prefaced on him attending that booster's school of choice.
Wondering if it is a booster for So Carolina, or another school.
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So how did NC lineup $1M of NIL for Dawson in about 4 days? Pretty sure some booster stepped up somewhere.
Huh? How did I miss this? Where is this million dollars referenced?
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So how did NC lineup $1M of NIL for Dawson in about 4 days? Pretty sure some booster stepped up somewhere.
I really like Garcia and wish he would have stayed. But if he's honestly got $1M in NIL money lined up (I'm skeptical, but if so, good for him) then I think somebody overpaid. It's new and will take some time for things to sort themselves out, but it sounds like people may "overpay" in the early days. If those numbers are real, I suspect things will come back to earth in the coming months/years.
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Shooter, go to bed, you’re drunk.
If you don’t see how NIL is a BOON for #mubb then you obviously didn’t take Logic 101. All the chicken littles out there, MUBB is about burn the rest of the conference down.
NIL is a (greatly) pivotal time in MUBB.
We’re gonna soar.
I don't think it is so clear. Could help MU in that MU's main boosters can target their funds towards a few ball player only, since we don't have football. Could be good for the BE. That is one scenario everyone is talking about.
On the other hand, if follows on Instagram, influencer stuff is big money, or purchase of jerseys with a players name on them become a big revenue source, it could strongly favor the big state schools. Which along with donor money could boost the big state schools more.
Or, it could be in between and wash each other out, etc, and the same type of kids end up at the same type of schools as in the past, just with a lot more money. It will further separate the teams from the schools and the players from their peers. MU has always wanted the team as part of the school. Buzz ran the team as separate from the school. In the end, the Buzz way maybe the future for college revenue sports. An 18 year old who wants and can afford a penthouse apartment might not be happy living in a dorm room.
I think the only known that seems pretty certain, is that the smaller, mid-major schools are less likely to be winners in the new system. But again, some might have a big donor or two that targets a few kids and all of a sudden, a lesser school puts together a winner.
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:) Sorry duplicate post with corrections. Not sure how to delete this post.
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I really like Garcia and wish he would have stayed. But if he's honestly got $1M in NIL money lined up (I'm skeptical, but if so, good for him) then I think somebody overpaid. It's new and will take some time for things to sort themselves out, but it sounds like people may "overpay" in the early days. If those numbers are real, I suspect things will come back to earth in the coming months/years.
This. I think we're seeing an untested market and people overvalueing the ROI for the influence of these athletes. At a certain point there will no way businesses will be able to justify such massive expenditures to everyone.
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Illinois recruiting boards - so take it for what that may be worth (likely a million)...
Huh? How did I miss this? Where is this million dollars referenced?
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We can get tied up with semantics, but I think you need only search "boosters and NIL" to find that boosters actively getting involved in the NIL business to help their alma mater (or favorite school) is not a myth. They aren't doing this to benefit their businesses; they are doing it to benefit the schools they support by attracting high end talent to the programs at their schools.
I thought this was an interesting Clemson opinion article that describes some of the thoughts on how NIL will affect different schools. More importantly, it feels like a piece trying to mobilize boosters to get involved; basically an arms race type article. https://rubbingtherock.com/2021/07/08/clemson-football-boosters-future/
Note reference to Frank Martin saying there is a HS bball kid with a seven figure offer already from a booster. Martin's thoughts are equally interesting:
https://247sports.com/college/south-carolina/Article/NIL-landscape-Frank-Martin-South-Carolina-Gamecocks-mens-basketball-167514581/
Again, I am not saying this is bad or good. It is change and it is reality. You either adapt or you get stuck reminiscing about glory days. But, to pretend that boosters aren't going to be working "for" their school's benefit (regardless of how much or little input the actual school has), is to stick your head in the sand.
With all due respect, an opinion piece from a Clemson blog that encourages boosters to pony up and Frank Martin passing along a rumor don't exactly qualify as examples of boosters acting in cahoots with schools. It doesn't even qualify as evidence of boosters buying players.
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Shooter, go to bed, you’re drunk.
If you don’t see how NIL is a BOON for #mubb then you obviously didn’t take Logic 101. All the chicken littles out there, MUBB is about burn the rest of the conference down.
NIL is a (greatly) pivotal time in MUBB.
We’re gonna soar.
That’s what I’ve been saying, as well.
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Thanks MUCam. Those saying “but the money is not coming from the schools” is just a stupid argument.
Do you think a Miami business giving every Miami Fb player $500 / month is purely the best interest of that business or because they are a huge Miami FB booster?
So how did NC lineup $1M of NIL for Dawson in about 4 days? Pretty sure some booster stepped up somewhere.
It’s all about the money, there are no rules are recruiting anymore (see Frank Martin article). And college bball will forever be changed. College players should get a cut of the action, but this version of NIL will have some serious negative consequences for current college basketball. It is basically paid ball with no salary cap, no contracts, no rules.
I’m not sure that you understand the difference between boosters giving NIL money to players and schools giving NIL money to players.
One happens.
The other doesn’t.
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I’m truly sorry to see Dawson Garcia leave but, simply put, next man up.
We have a new coach, new system and lots and lots of questions. Not sure I blame him for looking elsewhere. If the NIL money is as good as some suggest, Garcia died and went to heaven.
Either way, wish the young man luck and let’s move on.
We are Warriors. We don’t whine.
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Gentlemen as I've said before I live in Champaign -Urbana and have been a booster for Illinois athletics for many years.On Tuesday July 6 the Athletic Department held a huge cocktail party info session for All local businesses and boosters on NIL.I attended the meeting and the Informed people I know were discussing the packages that were being put together for Garcia and Kofi.
In my opinion between the transfer portal and NIL we are now in the WILD WILD WEST.
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Gentlemen as I've said before I live in Champaign -Urbana and have been a booster for Illinois athletics for many years.On Tuesday July 6 the Athletic Department held a huge cocktail party info session for All local businesses and boosters on NIL.I attended the meeting and the Informed people I know were discussing the packages that were being put together for Garcia and Kofi.
In my opinion between the transfer portal and NIL we are now in the WILD WILD WEST.
Penn State's AD had a press conference and indirectly called out their 750K alumni to step it up when it comes to NIL. While these deals cannot be "pay for play" and have to be approved by the athletic departments and cannot be arranged by the departments, there are going to be a lot of backdoor negotiations going on to help land or keep players.
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Gentlemen as I've said before I live in Champaign -Urbana and have been a booster for Illinois athletics for many years.On Tuesday July 6 the Athletic Department held a huge cocktail party info session for All local businesses and boosters on NIL.I attended the meeting and the Informed people I know were discussing the packages that were being put together for Garcia and Kofi.
In my opinion between the transfer portal and NIL we are now in the WILD WILD WEST.
This. If MU is not doing this they are done. I don’t think many here get that the school can’t steer the money to these kids directly but they can sure ask their boosters to do it. Anybody thinking differently is very naive.
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Sounds like it's time for Danny Pudi to start casting MUBB recruits for huge movies.
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are you that naïve? we understand the school is not giving the money, just like pre-NIL days. Now the schools can encourage boosters to give money via NIL - what was illegal pre-NIL is now legal with no limitations (or at least ones that are seemingly enforceable).
I’m not sure that you understand the difference between boosters giving NIL money to players and schools giving NIL money to players.
One happens.
The other doesn’t.
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Duquesne has their own "Personal Brand Coach", brought on a few months back (https://goduquesne.com/news/2021/5/3/general-jordon-rooney-named-personal-brand-coach.aspx).
If Duquesne players are getting this type of support on NIL, I sure hope MU follows suit in some way.
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Sounds like it's time for Danny Pudi to start casting MUBB recruits for huge movies.
*Duck tales cameos
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Dawson did not get a million dollars from a booster to attend UNC.
Dawson may believe that he could earn up to a million dollars in NIL from various sources by attending UNC and I'm sure UNC did nothing to dissuade him of that belief.
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So now that he's declared can anybody spill the beans on if he was never seriously considering coming back? If we had an outside shot if Wojo stayed? Did he not vibe with Shaka?
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Duquesne has their own "Personal Brand Coach", brought on a few months back (https://goduquesne.com/news/2021/5/3/general-jordon-rooney-named-personal-brand-coach.aspx).
If Duquesne players are getting this type of support on NIL, I sure hope MU follows suit in some way.
Marquette was out in front of this last year
https://www.inflcr.com/2020/08/03/marquette-data-services-announcement/ (https://www.inflcr.com/2020/08/03/marquette-data-services-announcement/)
On a side note, I see Johnny Juzang's Instagram followers jumped from 40K to over 100K in the last few months.
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Duquesne has their own "Personal Brand Coach", brought on a few months back (https://goduquesne.com/news/2021/5/3/general-jordon-rooney-named-personal-brand-coach.aspx).
If Duquesne players are getting this type of support on NIL, I sure hope MU follows suit in some way.
An entire team of administrators needs to be on this if the school is serious about competing on a national level. The NIL division of MU athletics.
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are you that naïve? we understand the school is not giving the money, just like pre-NIL days. Now the schools can encourage boosters to give money via NIL - what was illegal pre-NIL is now legal with no limitations (or at least ones that are seemingly enforceable).
You’re calling people naive and with stupid arguments yet you’re trafficking in opinion pieces and unsubstantiated rumors, and you’ve shown no real understanding of the nuances of NIL and what is actually allowed. Flatly saying “there are no limitations” is just pure ignorance and hysteria. You’re just vaguely assuming the absolute worst, with no hard facts to back it up, and using it to push a narrative that everything is forever ruined.
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*Duck tales cameos
"Larry, I'm on DuckTales."
Iconic
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Gentlemen as I've said before I live in Champaign -Urbana and have been a booster for Illinois athletics for many years.On Tuesday July 6 the Athletic Department held a huge cocktail party info session for All local businesses and boosters on NIL.I attended the meeting and the Informed people I know were discussing the packages that were being put together for Garcia and Kofi.
In my opinion between the transfer portal and NIL we are now in the WILD WILD WEST.
This is explicitly outlawed by Illinois' NIL bill.
A student-athlete may not earn compensation in exchange for the student-athlete's athletic ability or participation in intercollegiate athletics or sports competition or agreement or willingness to attend a postsecondary educational institution.
No booster, third party licensee, or any other individual or entity, shall provide or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to provide compensation to a prospective or current student-athlete or enter into, or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to enter into, a publicity rights agreement as an inducement for the student-athlete to attend or enroll in a specific institution or group of institutions. Compensation for a student-athlete's name, image, likeness, or voice shall not be conditioned on athletic performance or attendance at a particular postsecondary educational institution.[/b]
https://ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=110&GA=102&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=2338&GAID=16&LegID=134992&SpecSess=&Session=
I'd suggest, as a Warrior fan, you report what you've witnessed to state authorities as well as the NCAA.
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Sounds like some kind of NIL "salary cap" is needed.
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"Larry, I'm on DuckTales."
Iconic
Socks? Socks aren't a luxury.
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This is explicitly outlawed by Illinois' NIL bill.
A student-athlete may not earn compensation in exchange for the student-athlete's athletic ability or participation in intercollegiate athletics or sports competition or agreement or willingness to attend a postsecondary educational institution.
No booster, third party licensee, or any other individual or entity, shall provide or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to provide compensation to a prospective or current student-athlete or enter into, or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to enter into, a publicity rights agreement as an inducement for the student-athlete to attend or enroll in a specific institution or group of institutions. Compensation for a student-athlete's name, image, likeness, or voice shall not be conditioned on athletic performance or attendance at a particular postsecondary educational institution.[/b]
https://ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=110&GA=102&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=2338&GAID=16&LegID=134992&SpecSess=&Session=
I'd suggest, as a Warrior fan, you report what you've witnessed to state authorities as well as the NCAA.
<wink wink>
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Sounds like some kind of NIL "salary cap" is needed.
Good idea! As long as the Student Athletes Union agrees to one, that would be great!
Oh wait…
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/sports/ncaafootball/nlrb-says-northwestern-football-players-cannot-unionize.amp.html
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You’re calling people naive and with stupid arguments yet you’re trafficking in opinion pieces and unsubstantiated rumors, and you’ve shown no real understanding of the nuances of NIL and what is actually allowed. Flatly saying “there are no limitations” is just pure ignorance and hysteria. You’re just vaguely assuming the absolute worst, with no hard facts to back it up, and using it to push a narrative that everything is forever ruined.
How is this any different than people vaguely assuming the best, with no hard facts to back it up, and using it to push a narrative that this is at worst no big deal, and at best hugely positive for MU?
While there are no hard facts to back anything up, it's not hard to make some basic assumptions based on potential audience sizes.
I think there are four relatively safe assumptions we can make right now:
1. There will be an advantage to schools with large student body and alumni populations.
This is immediately applicable to an athlete's ability to monetize their social network.
Compare Wisconsin to Marquette
--Living alumni: UW has 459,000 living alumni compared to MU's 110,000.
--Total enrollment: UW has 43,800 compared to MU's 11,300.
--Undergraduate enrollment: UW has 33,900 undergrads compared to MU's 8,000.
--Employees: UW has 21,000 compared to MU's 2,900.
Assuming the two schools have an equivalent ability to activate those audiences to follow their school's athletes, UW has a huge built-in advantage
Since social media monetization is heavily based on audience size, an athlete is going to have more financial incentive to attend UW than MU, all other things being equal.
2. There will be an additional advantage to athletes who attend schools with large, state-wide followings that transcend alumni and student audiences.
Think MU versus Wisconsin. Wisconsin's avid following extends well beyond the student/alumni community. Granted, MU (and similar private schools) has a similar audience, it's going to be much smaller. People unaffiliated with the university still follow UW sports because it's a matter of state pride. Think about how many threads here complaining about their HS buddy who goes to UW LaCrosse and has nothing to do with Madison, but is still an avld Badger fan.
The good news here is that with the exception of UConn, every other Big East school will be in the same boat as MU.
The bad news is that UConn will have the same kind of permanent structural advantage over every other team in the Big East that Wisconsin has over MU. First, they have the largest alumni/student community (230,000 living alumni, 28,000 total enrollment, 18,000 undergrads. 9,400 employees). Second, they're the only school in the conference that has the state-wide affinity (ala Wisconsin, tOSU, Illinois, Nebraska, etc.).
3. There will be an advantage to athletes attending schools in larger media markets.
More people --> larger potential reach, larger potential influence.
I don't think it's reasonable to use past performance to dismiss the future potential of DePaul, St. Johns, Seton Hall, etc. It's a new competitive world, and over time, athletes in NYC, Chicago, etc. are going to figure out how to monetize those audiences, and there will be a larger potential in those markets than in Milwaukee, Omaha, Indianapolis, etc.
4. There will be an advantage to schools with deep-pocketed boosters who are willing to spend on athlete NIL
Complete unknown at this point--nobody knows where MU falls relative to other schools nationally or within the Big East.
I'm not suggesting here that MU should close up shop because we can't compete. At the same time, those who are running around suggesting that this is nothing but good for MU and that we'll dominate in the new era are probably not taking all the facts into account.
I think we're in a good place relative to college basketball as a whole, but we're not going to start out at the top. I also think there's a real possibility that the typical Big Ten, ACC, SEC, Pac10, and Big 12 team is going to have significant and permanent structural advantages when it comes to NIL.
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This is explicitly outlawed by Illinois' NIL bill.
A student-athlete may not earn compensation in exchange for the student-athlete's athletic ability or participation in intercollegiate athletics or sports competition or agreement or willingness to attend a postsecondary educational institution.
No booster, third party licensee, or any other individual or entity, shall provide or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to provide compensation to a prospective or current student-athlete or enter into, or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to enter into, a publicity rights agreement as an inducement for the student-athlete to attend or enroll in a specific institution or group of institutions. Compensation for a student-athlete's name, image, likeness, or voice shall not be conditioned on athletic performance or attendance at a particular postsecondary educational institution.[/b]
https://ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=110&GA=102&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=2338&GAID=16&LegID=134992&SpecSess=&Session=
I'd suggest, as a Warrior fan, you report what you've witnessed to state authorities as well as the NCAA.
It's not going to be conditioned on attending a specific institution. But it's reasonable to think that a Milwaukee-area business is probably going to determine that it makes sense to sponsor an athlete that is attending school and playing in the Milwaukee area. Sponsorships will be year-to-year. What I imagine will happen is that certain schools will develop a reputation for having lots of opportunities for student athletes. Official deals will not be reached before committing to a school, but kids who commit to tOSU will know that there is money available when they get to Columbus and they'll probably have a pretty good idea how much.
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Correct.
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Adapt and thrive.
Shake your fist and get left behind.
The train has left the station
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This is explicitly outlawed by Illinois' NIL bill.
A student-athlete may not earn compensation in exchange for the student-athlete's athletic ability or participation in intercollegiate athletics or sports competition or agreement or willingness to attend a postsecondary educational institution.
No booster, third party licensee, or any other individual or entity, shall provide or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to provide compensation to a prospective or current student-athlete or enter into, or directly or indirectly arrange for a third party to enter into, a publicity rights agreement as an inducement for the student-athlete to attend or enroll in a specific institution or group of institutions. Compensation for a student-athlete's name, image, likeness, or voice shall not be conditioned on athletic performance or attendance at a particular postsecondary educational institution.[/b]
https://ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=110&GA=102&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=2338&GAID=16&LegID=134992&SpecSess=&Session=
I'd suggest, as a Warrior fan, you report what you've witnessed to state authorities as well as the NCAA.
my guess is the "agreement" was along the lines of "if you attend Illinois you can get up to $XXX amount in NIL deals. Illinois may have deals lined up and a pot of many that can go to Garcia or other recruits but aren't earmarked for him. That's how you get around the rules.
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Adapt and thrive.
Shake your fist and get left behind.
The train has left the station
That’s right. MU alums with businesses better pony up or we die on the vine.
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Don't listen to me, read what Frank Martin had to say:
Throw out the rule book on what you can or can’t do in recruiting players, Martin says.
“You usually have a big black area, big white area, and narrow gray area,” Martin said. “The way this has been put together is it’s a narrow black area, narrow white area, and huge gray area. The way this is rolling right now, we should just throw all the rules away and go get players. Go get players, I don’t care what you do, and let them profit off their name, image and likeness and let someone give them 10 grand for every year they are in school. It’s buck wild right now. I’m all for people making money but as a university we are now allowed to be involved. …
You’re calling people naive and with stupid arguments yet you’re trafficking in opinion pieces and unsubstantiated rumors, and you’ve shown no real understanding of the nuances of NIL and what is actually allowed. Flatly saying “there are no limitations” is just pure ignorance and hysteria. You’re just vaguely assuming the absolute worst, with no hard facts to back it up, and using it to push a narrative that everything is forever ruined.
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and where do you think NIL money is coming from?
boosters - by appearance fees, use of image, promotion of their business, you name it - there are no rules other than it cannot be to guarantee attendance of a school - who will prove that or enforce that?
essentially what SMU football got the death penalty for and Reggie Bush at USC is now encouraged...
not sure why every thinks this is all just players innocently leveraging IG followers for advertising cash...
Dawson did not get a million dollars from a booster to attend UNC.
Dawson may believe that he could earn up to a million dollars in NIL from various sources by attending UNC and I'm sure UNC did nothing to dissuade him of that belief.
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Dan Lambert, Miami booster and paying $500K+ to football players:
"I'm not looking to profit from this," Lambert said. "I want to try to bring people together and make our team better. I've got too many Gator and Seminole friends that have been s----ing on me for the last 20 years. I want to reverse it."
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Dan Lambert, Miami booster and paying $500K+ to football players:
"I'm not looking to profit from this," Lambert said. "I want to try to bring people together and make our team better. I've got too many Gator and Seminole friends that have been s----ing on me for the last 20 years. I want to reverse it."
But how long is that sustainable for? I mean these people didn't get where they are by making horrible investments...
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and where do you think NIL money is coming from?
Right now, for Dawson? Nowhere. In the near future, probably from a variety of sources including social media, Jumpman, local businesses, and yes, boosters.
As fun as it is to imagine boosters as villains with twirly mustaches handing over millions of dollars in old timey bank bags to players with no expected ROI except playing for their alma mater, that's not what the reality is. Most NIL money will be in small amounts here and there and the larger contracts will mostly be from legitimate businesses expecting a legitimate return on their investment. Yes, there will be some bad actors. I hope the NCAA is proactive about them but they've proven time again to be one of the most reactive organizations in history.
At the end of the day, there are only 13 scholarships per team and only 1 ball per game. With those limitations and the mass amount of basketball talent available, I don't think the playing field will skew anymore than it already has. I think this will actually be great for college basketball as I think it will lead to more players returning for multiple years of college instead of going overseas or to the g-league to chase a paycheck.
Moreover, NIL is the right thing to do. That trumps all other arguments.
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It's not going to be conditioned on attending a specific institution. But it's reasonable to think that a Milwaukee-area business is probably going to determine that it makes sense to sponsor an athlete that is attending school and playing in the Milwaukee area. Sponsorships will be year-to-year. What I imagine will happen is that certain schools will develop a reputation for having lots of opportunities for student athletes. Official deals will not be reached before committing to a school, but kids who commit to tOSU will know that there is money available when they get to Columbus and they'll probably have a pretty good idea how much.
There are probably more Badger fans in Milwaukee than there are MU fans, so I do not think this holds true.
However, Badger football players are going to reduce the value of Badger basketball players when it comes to NIL. The problem I see (which does not make it true) is that only a select number of players are going to benefit from this. The Badger quarterback is going to get way more money than the Badger tackle. In the end the NIL is mostly going to benefit players who are going to make a lot of money playing pro ball. It will do little or nothing to benefit 90% of the athletes.
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But how long is that sustainable for? I mean these people didn't get where they are by making horrible investments...
Exactly.
These arguments seem to assume there's a limitless supply of heretofore unused sports marketing dollars out there that companies just can't wait to spend on no-name college athletes. Or that boosters have been sitting on piles of cash and now intend to spend millions of dollars every year to ensure that their favorite college basketball team has a great bench.
Guys ... Nike or Coke or Chevy isn't going to direct significant portions of its marketing money away from where it's going now, i.e. the teams and pros, to invest in Wisconsin basketball players.
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Don't listen to me, read what Frank Martin had to say:
Throw out the rule book on what you can or can’t do in recruiting players, Martin says.
“You usually have a big black area, big white area, and narrow gray area,” Martin said. “The way this has been put together is it’s a narrow black area, narrow white area, and huge gray area. The way this is rolling right now, we should just throw all the rules away and go get players. Go get players, I don’t care what you do, and let them profit off their name, image and likeness and let someone give them 10 grand for every year they are in school. It’s buck wild right now. I’m all for people making money but as a university we are now allowed to be involved. …
I feel terrible for millionaire basketball coach Frank Martin. He’s in my thoughts and prayers
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I mean why would I care what Frank Martin says about this? Clearly biased.
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I feel terrible for millionaire basketball coach Frank Martin. He’s in my thoughts and prayers
Yep, the millionaires want to protect their millions. What else is new?
Look, the NCAA could have worked with the feds to get something done; instead, they resisted this for 2+ years while states made their own laws. Typical.
So for now, these are uncharted waters. There's gonna be a lot of craziness, but eventually guidelines will be implemented.
I am glad the people who make college athletes possible -- the college athletes -- finally have a chance to participate in this most capitalist venture.
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Yep, good for the players ... and it's about time. Everybody else has been getting rich on their backs for generations.
Who is everybody else that is getting rich besides the coaches? Most athletic departments lose money, don't they? I don't begrudge the players a dime and this is a good way to do it since the schools don't have to pony up the money, which should help keep the smaller schools in D-1. But thinking logically, I would expect that this would further separate the haves from the have nots, which is not a good thing for the sport of college basketball, IMHO. But what is right and what is best for the sport do not have to align, I suppose.
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Who is everybody else that is getting rich besides the coaches? Most athletic departments lose money, don't they? I don't begrudge the players a dime and this is a good way to do it since the schools don't have to pony up the money, which should help keep the smaller schools in D-1. But thinking logically, I would expect that this would further separate the haves from the have nots, which is not a good thing for the sport of college basketball, IMHO. But what is right and what is best for the sport do not have to align, I suppose.
The haves have never really cared about the have nots. And that has always been part of the problem.
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I mean why would I care what Frank Martin says about this? Clearly biased.
Clearly biased, also notoriously old school and change resistant, which hasn’t exactly helped him on the recruiting trail the last 5 or so years. Also clearly not educated or studied on the new NLI legislation or what it means. The last person that should be leaned on as an expert here
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Clearly biased, also notoriously old school and change resistant, which hasn’t exactly helped him on the recruiting trail the last 5 or so years. Also clearly not educated or studied on the new NLI legislation or what it means. The last person that should be leaned on as an expert here
Alex I’m a going with - What’s a Chico’s?
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That’s right. MU alums with businesses better pony up or we die on the vine.
One call...that’s all!! Gruber Law, who’s your daddy? Pay the man!
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Who is everybody else that is getting rich besides the coaches? Most athletic departments lose money, don't they?
Rising administrative and support staff pay is one of the biggest reasons otherwise profitable or self-sufficient athletic departments run deficits, according to a Washington Post review of thousands of pages of financial records from athletic departments at 48 schools in the five wealthiest conferences in college sports. In a decade, the non-coaching payrolls at the schools, combined, rose from $454 million to $767 million, a 69 percent jump.
College sports officials long have cited rising costs both to justify mandatory student fees supporting athletics and to argue against paying college athletes. One of the fastest-increasing athletic costs at many of America’s largest public universities, however, is the amount of money flowing into the paychecks of the people running those athletic departments.
From 2004 to 2014, UCLA Athletic Director Dan Guerrero’s salary increased from $299,000 to $920,000 to do the same job, and his administration grew from 97 to 141 employees, boosting UCLA’s non-coaching payroll from $9.1 million to $16 million. (All 2004 figures in this story have been adjusted for inflation.)
In 2004, University of Michigan Athletic Director William Martin made $361,000, and 15 of his administrative employees made $100,000 or more. Ten years later, Michigan Athletic Director Dave Brandon made $900,000, and the number of his administrative staffers making $100,000 or more had risen to 34.
In 2004, 12 football teams in the “Power Five” conferences — the ACC, Southeastern Conference, Big Ten, Big 12 and Pacific-12 — spent more than $1 million on staffers who were not coaches. A decade later, 34 football teams had seven-figure support staff payrolls. At Clemson University, the football coach’s chief of staff — his official title is “associate athletic director of football administration” — makes $252,000, a salary that exceeds what some athletic directors at big colleges made a decade ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/as-college-sports-revenues-spike-coaches-arent-only-ones-cashing-in/2015/12/29/bbdb924e-ae15-11e5-9ab0-884d1cc4b33e_story.html
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Rising administrative and support staff pay is one of the biggest reasons otherwise profitable or self-sufficient athletic departments run deficits, according to a Washington Post review of thousands of pages of financial records from athletic departments at 48 schools in the five wealthiest conferences in college sports. In a decade, the non-coaching payrolls at the schools, combined, rose from $454 million to $767 million, a 69 percent jump.
College sports officials long have cited rising costs both to justify mandatory student fees supporting athletics and to argue against paying college athletes. One of the fastest-increasing athletic costs at many of America’s largest public universities, however, is the amount of money flowing into the paychecks of the people running those athletic departments.
From 2004 to 2014, UCLA Athletic Director Dan Guerrero’s salary increased from $299,000 to $920,000 to do the same job, and his administration grew from 97 to 141 employees, boosting UCLA’s non-coaching payroll from $9.1 million to $16 million. (All 2004 figures in this story have been adjusted for inflation.)
In 2004, University of Michigan Athletic Director William Martin made $361,000, and 15 of his administrative employees made $100,000 or more. Ten years later, Michigan Athletic Director Dave Brandon made $900,000, and the number of his administrative staffers making $100,000 or more had risen to 34.
In 2004, 12 football teams in the “Power Five” conferences — the ACC, Southeastern Conference, Big Ten, Big 12 and Pacific-12 — spent more than $1 million on staffers who were not coaches. A decade later, 34 football teams had seven-figure support staff payrolls. At Clemson University, the football coach’s chief of staff — his official title is “associate athletic director of football administration” — makes $252,000, a salary that exceeds what some athletic directors at big colleges made a decade ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/as-college-sports-revenues-spike-coaches-arent-only-ones-cashing-in/2015/12/29/bbdb924e-ae15-11e5-9ab0-884d1cc4b33e_story.html
Yep. And this didn't even touch on all the people in the various conference offices and NCAA offices who have been getting rich on the backs of the athletes for years.
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Yep. And this didn't even touch on all the people in the various conference offices and NCAA offices who have been getting rich on the backs of the athletes for years.
Reminds me of healthcare. The system is bloated. There are now administrators for administrators for administrators in hospitals, all of whom need to be paid by the patient. But that’s a subject for another day in Super Bar.
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It's funny how everyone wants to avoid how losing Garcia makes MU's talent level woefully low and would rather bicker about some macro issue when nobody knows how it will exactly play out.
I'd guess MU is barely a top 100 team now?
I wasn't a Wojo fan, but what's going on at MU now isn't an upgrade in talent.
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Your crazy
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It's funny how everyone wants to avoid how losing Garcia makes MU's talent level woefully low and would rather bicker about some macro issue when nobody knows how it will exactly play out.
I'd guess MU is barely a top 100 team now?
I wasn't a Wojo fan, but what's going on at MU now isn't an upgrade in talent.
Find me one person who’s actually said losing Garcia isn’t a big loss in terms of production and talent for the upcoming season.
You’ve clearly been anti-Shaka from the very beginning so it’s hard not to take anything you say with a grain of salt.
The team is very young and this is likely to be a tough year but there is plenty of talent and upside already on the roster. Establish a culture, develop the talent we have and bring in a good recruiting class and success will follow shortly thereafter.
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It's funny how everyone wants to avoid how losing Garcia makes MU's talent level woefully low and would rather bicker about some macro issue when nobody knows how it will exactly play out.
I'd guess MU is barely a top 100 team now?
I wasn't a Wojo fan, but what's going on at MU now isn't an upgrade in talent.
Have to agree that talent recruited thus far is not highly rated mostly 3 stars. Will have to see how all these newcomers turn out. Shaka got started late but did pick up some players. Must take a look at next year's class to form a better opinion. It is disappointing that he could not retain our 2 best returning players, Garcia and Carton. Likely this season is going to be a bumpy ride. Hopefully the record approaches.500
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It's funny how everyone wants to avoid how losing Garcia makes MU's talent level woefully low and would rather bicker about some macro issue when nobody knows how it will exactly play out.
I'd guess MU is barely a top 100 team now?
I wasn't a Wojo fan, but what's going on at MU now isn't an upgrade in talent.
Would you prefer Wojo back then?!
We made a tremendous upgrade in coaching and that will pay off soon. There’s no longer an incompetent running the program and being out coached when we’re not playing the Arkansas Pine Bluffs of college basketball.
Be a little patient.
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It's funny how everyone wants to avoid how losing Garcia makes MU's talent level woefully low and would rather bicker about some macro issue when nobody knows how it will exactly play out.
I'd guess MU is barely a top 100 team now?
I wasn't a Wojo fan, but what's going on at MU now isn't an upgrade in talent.
Good to see you back, bitter and negative as ever!
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It's funny how everyone wants to avoid how losing Garcia makes MU's talent level woefully low and would rather bicker about some macro issue when nobody knows how it will exactly play out.
I'd guess MU is barely a top 100 team now?
I wasn't a Wojo fan, but what's going on at MU now isn't an upgrade in talent.
And you're not a Marquette fan either.
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I'd guess MU is barely a top 100 team now?
MU was barely a top 100 team last year. All 5 starters left (or weren’t invited back). We sucked with Dawson, DJ, Theo, Jamal and Koby and we’ll probably suck without ‘em - at least for a year. But I’d rather be young and suck than suck with 3 seniors in the starting lineup. If that happens with Shaka I’ll worry. Don’t think it will.
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I guess I am in the minority as I don’t mind Garcia leaving. While he would have made us better next year, we still wouldn’t be a tourney team. Then he would be gone to the draft.
With a new coach, I want to see young guys who will be here for 3-4 years. Guys to build on. That was never gonna be Dawson.
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I guess I am in the minority as I don’t mind Garcia leaving. While he would have made us better next year, we still wouldn’t be a tourney team. Then he would be gone to the draft.
With a new coach, I want to see young guys who will be here for 3-4 years. Guys to build on. That was never gonna be Dawson.
For fans who really care about winning every season (including 2021-22) and who have confidence in the new coach's ability to get kids to work together for a common cause (as I do), losing Garcia and Carton sucked. They already were good Big East players and they almost certainly would have improved, perhaps significantly.
Shaka was gonna have to recruit great players from the Class of '22 to replace them, anyway. Now he has to recruit great players from the Class of '22 even as we probably struggle to go .500 this season.
I'm one of this board's big optimists, but I seriously don't see the upside to losing two very good players.
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Eye'd have good wit da 'hole bunch boltin'. Ez come, ez go. Give me sum badass mf'ers hoo have a chip on der shoulders, wanna bee here wherein' the blue and gold, bye inta Shaka, and ar reddy ta kick ass, hey?
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For fans who really care about winning every season (including 2021-22) and who have confidence in the new coach's ability to get kids to work together for a common cause (as I do), losing Garcia and Carton sucked. They already were good Big East players and they almost certainly would have improved, perhaps significantly.
Shaka was gonna have to recruit great players from the Class of '22 to replace them, anyway. Now he has to recruit great players from the Class of '22 even as we probably struggle to go .500 this season.
I'm one of this board's big optimists, but I seriously don't see the upside to losing two very good players.
Carton was already gone. I was just speaking of Garcia.
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There is usually turnover when a coaching change occurs. Why should MU be exempt?
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There is usually turnover when a coaching change occurs. Why should MU be exempt?
The interesting thing is there wasn't the last time. Wojo lost most of Buzz's recruits, but kept the returning players. Then we stunk out loud anyway. I'd rather be bad with pieces to build around than be bad while keeping guys that aren't loyal to the new coach.
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The interesting thing is there wasn't the last time. Wojo lost most of Buzz's recruits, but kept the returning players. Then we stunk out loud anyway. I'd rather be bad with pieces to build around than be bad while keeping guys that aren't loyal to the new coach.
Stunk…and most of the returnees ended up transferring anyway.
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Eye'd have good wit da 'hole bunch boltin'. Ez come, ez go. Give me sum badass mf'ers hoo have a chip on der shoulders, wanna bee here wherein' the blue and gold, bye inta Shaka, and ar reddy ta kick ass, hey?
I’m with you, now that their gone of course. But I think in the end it’s probably best for both parties.
I think a couple of the big 2022 recruits have good teeth. Your practice down for sponsoring them and getting this NIL thing rolling? Billboard?
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I guess I am in the minority as I don’t mind Garcia leaving. While he would have made us better next year, we still wouldn’t be a tourney team. Then he would be gone to the draft.
With a new coach, I want to see young guys who will be here for 3-4 years. Guys to build on. That was never gonna be Dawson.
Jockey
100% agree. Garcia (and Carton) are good players who have had one foot out the door since they got here. I can deal with another tough year if it means getting experience for young players who can help lead us to a brighter future. The last thing I want is another year of a star system team that won’t win and will lose its “stars”.
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Keeping good players AND bringing in good recruits need not be mutually exclusive.
Look, I’m not pining for Garcia and Carton. Like brewski says, this happens quite often with coaching changes.
But the reaction here that we didn’t need these guys anyway … and they really weren’t that good … and they lost under Wojo so good riddance … etc etc etc … it smacks of Madison fans rationalizing lost recruits by saying Bo cooled on em.
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Keeping good players AND bringing in good recruits need not be mutually exclusive.
Look, I’m not pining for Garcia and Carton. Like brewski says, this happens quite often with coaching changes.
But the reaction here that we didn’t need these guys anyway … and they really weren’t that good … and they lost under Wojo so good riddance … etc etc etc … it smacks of Madison fans rationalizing lost recruits by saying Bo cooled on em.
There are a lot of “good players”. Garcia is very skilled but not very athletic and soft as the My Pillow guy’s finest. Carton is a very good athlete who was great in spurts but disappeared for long stretches. They are both “good players” but starting alongside 3 seniors (who are now at Duke, Syracuse and Oakland) in maybe the weakest version of the Big East in its history they produced one of Marquette’s six losing seasons in the last 55 years. They were part of a culture that needed changing. If they weren’t “all in” with that idea I’d rather roll with guys who are. Whether we finish 10th without ‘em or 7th with ‘em next year doesn’t matter to me. I’d rather Shaka’s young guys get the PT even if it’s painful at times.
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There are a lot of “good players”. Garcia is very skilled but not very athletic and soft as the My Pillow guy’s finest. Carton is a very good athlete who was great in spurts but disappeared for long stretches. They are both “good players” but starting alongside 3 seniors (who are now at Duke, Syracuse and Oakland) in maybe the weakest version of the Big East in its history they produced one of Marquette’s six losing seasons in the last 55 years. They were part of a culture that needed changing. If they weren’t “all in” with that idea I’d rather roll with guys who are. Whether we finish 10th without ‘em or 7th with ‘em next year doesn’t matter to me. I’d rather Shaka’s young guys get the PT even if it’s painful at times.
Great summary Lenny. Loved watching the "Big Two" when they were on but as a Fox halftime commentator once said (I think it was Charles Barkely, but maybe Kenny Smith) "Marquette has no identity. They need an identity" All through the Wojo era it seemed like mostly a collection of individual players, not a tight team, that was on the court. The results, or rather lack thereof, speak for themselves. Wojo came from a team whose identity is tied almost exclusively to recruiting players who were one year away from consideration for the NBA. He simply never really left Duke. Remember the "Duke North" BS that was floating around shortly after he was hired? It was a foreshadowing of Wojo's mindset.
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Give me sum badass mf'ers hoo have a chip on der shoulders, wanna bee here wherein' the blue and gold
If they weren’t “all in” with that idea I’d rather roll with guys who are.
Both of those takes are fair, gentlemen.
I missed similar from y'all when The Lettermen left in 2019 -- not to mention when Doc celebrated every green wienie for years -- but what you're saying now about Garcia and Carton is reasonable.
We Are Marquette!
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But the reaction here that we didn’t need these guys anyway … and they really weren’t that good … and they lost under Wojo so good riddance … etc etc etc … it smacks of Madison fans rationalizing lost recruits by saying Bo cooled on em.
Not to mention current opinions are 180 degrees of phase with the narrative created to justify getting rid of Wojo.
To listen to many here on the board, we had the talent last year at minimum to easily make the NCAA tournament and some even though we could challenge Villanova for the league title. If only we had better coaching...
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Not to mention current opinions are 180 degrees of phase with the narrative created to justify getting rid of Wojo.
To listen to many here on the board, we had the talent last year at minimum to easily make the NCAA tournament and some even though we could challenge Villanova for the league title. If only we had better coaching...
Wojo had to go. I'm glad he's our ex-coach and I'm optimistic that Shaka can give us a program we're all proud of.
But if folks can shrug their shoulders about Garcia and Carton leaving because they only want guys who "wanna bee here wherein' the blue and gold" and "who are all
in," then obviously those same folks should have shrugged their shoulders and said "ez come ez go" about The Lettermen, too.
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Wojo had to go. I'm glad he's our ex-coach and I'm optimistic that Shaka can give us a program we're all proud of.
But if folks can shrug their shoulders about Garcia and Carton leaving because they only want guys who "wanna bee here wherein' the blue and gold" and "who are all
in," then obviously those same folks should have shrugged their shoulders and said "ez come ez go" about The Lettermen, too.
I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.
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Lots of talk about culture lately. Just interested in what was the culture brought to Texas and how successful was it?
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I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.
If you don't think we'd have had a pretty darn good year with the guys Shaka brought in playing alongside Garcia and Carton, Tony, it doesn't show much faith in Shaka's coaching ability. I guess I give him far more credit than you do.
As for the Lettermen ... they quit on our alma mater, ruining a promising season in the process. That neither went on to NCAA tournament greatness once freed of the Wojo/Markus shackles -- and one pretty much stunk 90% of his season at Michigan State -- tells me that they might have been a big part of the toxic "culture."
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Would we be better off in terms of W/L if Garcia and Carton were still at Marquette for this coming season? Sure. Shaka would have 2 proven shooters. Would they buy into Shaka's culture and wholesale makeover of the team? I think not. This business of stating that any critique of Garcia's and Carton's tenure is de facto trashing them is nonsense. I certainly was not "relieved" that they left but I can also see the advantage of a clean slate. They were our leading scorers, very talented players and, I believe, had pretty much a green light from Wojo. He's gone and so are they. I'll miss them but not Wojo.
We need an identity, defense, a wholesale makeover. The Dukie's star system simply did not work. We never became Duke North except possibly this past season when they did not make the tourney either. Just look at the past 7 seasons. For 80% of one we looked really good. Other than that...
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Random thought but if we had kept Garcia and Carton and both had major success and the team was very successful, there likely would have been a sizable crowd saying “we fired wojo one year too soon.”
Best to pull the plug and start over like they are doing.
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Random thought but if we had kept Garcia and Carton and both had major success and the team was very successful, there likely would have been a sizable crowd saying “we fired wojo one year too soon.”
Best to pull the plug and start over like they are doing.
Sure, if by sizeable crowd you mean Chicos and his alter egos.
Everyone else would have correctly credited Shaka for getting more out of the returnees than Wojo ever did
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If you don't think we'd have had a pretty darn good year with the guys Shaka brought in playing alongside Garcia and Carton, Tony, it doesn't show much faith in Shaka's coaching ability. I guess I give him far more credit than you do.
Garcia + Carton + 3 seniors now headed for Duke, Syracuse and Oakland produced the 5th worst Marquette team in the last 55 years. A long, long, long way from pretty darn good. Unless you think Wojo really was the worst coach in the history of basketball and Shaka is a miracle worker why would you think Garcia, Carton + the youngest team in the league would be so good?
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Garcia + Carton + 3 seniors now headed for Duke, Syracuse and Oakland produced the 5th worst Marquette team in the last 55 years. A long, long, long way from pretty darn good. Unless you think Wojo really was the worst coach in the history of basketball and Shaka is a miracle worker why would you think Garcia, Carton + the youngest team in the league would be so good?
You keep bringing up three other guys. Who is mentioning them except for you, Tony?
I'm giving Shaka credit for recruiting players who are better than Theo, Cain and Symir. I'm also giving Shaka credit for being able to get the best out of Garcia and Carton, who almost surely would have improved significantly regardless of coach but who could have really blossomed under Shaka.
You and a few others here seem to think that a freshman who led the Big East in scoring and rebounding couldn't improve under Shaka, and that Shaka couldn't have motivated a dynamic, talented, athletic point guard. It doesn't take a tremendous leap of imagination to think both would have been first-team All-Big East with superior coaches and teammates.
Youngest team in the league? I thought the days of excuses on behalf of the Marquette head coach were over?
Why do you think so little of our new coach?
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Garcia + Carton + 3 seniors now headed for Duke, Syracuse and Oakland produced the 5th worst Marquette team in the last 55 years. A long, long, long way from pretty darn good. Unless you think Wojo really was the worst coach in the history of basketball and Shaka is a miracle worker why would you think Garcia, Carton + the youngest team in the league would be so good?
Are you seriously trying to argue that MU wouldn't be better off had Dawson stayed? Because that would be utter nonsense. UNC, Illinois, Arizona and others went all out for the kid ... but in Lenny's world, Marquette is better off without him?
If that's not what you're getting at, than what's your point? Is it simply a refusal to admit that Shaka was unsuccessful at keeping him at MU? Have you gone full Badger fan to "We didn't want him anyway" silliness?
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Are you seriously trying to argue that MU wouldn't be better off had Dawson stayed? Because that would be utter nonsense. UNC, Illinois, Arizona and others went all out for the kid ... but in Lenny's world, Marquette is better off without him?
If that's not what you're getting at, than what's your point? Is it simply a refusal to admit that Shaka was unsuccessful at keeping him at MU? Have you gone full Badger fan to "We didn't want him anyway" silliness?
It’s as simple as he was recruited by Wojo, so he’s not worth keeping. Recruiting talent was never the issue. Coaching it was.
As for the idea he wasn’t “grinding” with the team while he pursued his NBA dream somehow makes him a bad teammate is also laughable. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess Shaka and his staff were well aware of him likely not returning.
It’s also laughable he wouldn’t have been a valuable piece on a Marquette team for the upcoming season.
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Are you seriously trying to argue that MU wouldn't be better off had Dawson stayed? Because that would be utter nonsense. UNC, Illinois, Arizona and others went all out for the kid ... but in Lenny's world, Marquette is better off without him?
I don't think he is saying that at all. I think he means that while they would indeed be *better* with Garcia and Carton, they wouldn't be good enough to make a significant difference on the outcome of the season - and would likely be gone after next season anyway.
If that's not what you're getting at, than what's your point? Is it simply a refusal to admit that Shaka was unsuccessful at keeping him at MU? Have you gone full Badger fan to "We didn't want him anyway" silliness?
I think his point is that its better to go through the rough patches with a new coach and a young team, and they will be better for it two or three seasons down the road.
Honestly, I get what he is saying, but I also think in this day and age, with transfers getting a free year, that "building for the future" isn't what it used to be.
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I don't think he is saying that at all. I think he means that while they would indeed be *better* with Garcia and Carton, they wouldn't be good enough to make a significant difference on the outcome of the season - and would likely be gone after next season anyway.
I think his point is that its better to go through the rough patches with a new coach and a young team, and they will be better for it two or three seasons down the road.
Honestly, I get what he is saying, but I also think in this day and age, with transfers getting a free year, that "building for the future" isn't what it used to be.
Well, that's just as woefully misguided then.
Finishing 10th in the BE this season without Garcia (and/or Carton) vs 6th-8th with one or both is a significant difference. I get that the ultimate goal is something more than hoping to be a bubble team and NIT as a fallback, but suggesting that there's no difference between that and no postseason at all is dumb.
More importantly, being bad this year has no impact on how good the team will be three seasons down the road. This isn't the NBA. There's no benefit in tanking. Marquette isn't getting a higher pick in next year's draft by battling it out with DePaul for last place.
Being sh*tty hurts the program ... in recruiting, in attracting quality transfers, in attendance, in buzz, in NIL opportunities for players, etc. Bringing back Dawson (and/or DJ) would have greatly reduced the chances of being sh*tty.
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I think the only thought is that it gives more playing time for players who will have a larger impact two or three years down the line. But again, that always looks better on paper than it does reality IMO.
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Well, that's just as woefully misguided then.
Finishing 10th in the BE this season without Garcia (and/or Carton) vs 6th-8th with one or both is a significant difference. I get that the ultimate goal is something more than hoping to be a bubble team and NIT as a fallback, but suggesting that there's no difference between that and no postseason at all is dumb.
More importantly, being bad this year has no impact on how good the team will be three seasons down the road. This isn't the NBA. There's no benefit in tanking. Marquette isn't getting a higher pick in next year's draft by battling it out with DePaul for last place.
Being sh*tty hurts the program ... in recruiting, in attracting quality transfers, in attendance, in buzz, in NIL opportunities for players, etc. Bringing back Dawson (and/or DJ) would have greatly reduced the chances of being sh*tty.
This, totally this.
Especially you saying, correctly, that being bad this season will have absolutely no benefit for future seasons. None!
Speaking only for myself, I don't blame Shaka for not retaining Garcia and Carton (and in fact do give considerable blame to Wojo for losing The Lettermen). I just get a kick out of the mental gymnastics necessary to casually dismiss two talented players. It's both interesting and amusing that guys who claim to think Shaka is the very best coach we could have hired apparently don't think he would have been a good enough coach to work successfully with Garcia and Carton. I give Shaka a lot more credit than that.
I guess it's time to hope Lewis leaves MU to play in Europe now. Because ... you know ... Wojo.
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I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.
This is just me but I'd like to see what guys as talented as Carton and Garcia could have done in a new system and culture. Sure, a positive of them leaving is more opportunities and in-game development for guys who might be with the program longer. Ideally, both could have happened. If I had the choice I would have liked to see both of them back because I believe both could have taken big leaps this season.
They chose other options and that's fine. I just think the benefit of them staying outweighs whatever opportunities them leaving creates.
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This, totally this.
Especially you saying, correctly, that being bad this season will have absolutely no benefit for future seasons. None!
Speaking only for myself, I don't blame Shaka for not retaining Garcia and Carton (and in fact do give considerable blame to Wojo for losing The Lettermen). I just get a kick out of the mental gymnastics necessary to casually dismiss two talented players. It's both interesting and amusing that guys who claim to think Shaka is the very best coach we could have hired apparently don't think he would have been a good enough coach to work successfully with Garcia and Carton. I give Shaka a lot more credit than that.
I guess it's time to hope Lewis leaves MU to play in Europe now. Because ... you know ... Wojo.
Right. I don't blame Shaka for Carton leaving. And while I don't give him a pass on Garcia, it sure seems like it was an uphill battle to keep him.
My issue is with those trying to rationalize their departures as insignificant or, even worse, actually good for the program. That's ludicrous. Unlike professional sports rebuilds, losing is never good in college.
Did anyone suggest losing Sam Hauser was a good thing for Marquette because it meant more minutes from Brendan Bailey and Jamal Cain?
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Sure, a positive of them leaving is more opportunities and in-game development for guys who might be with the program longer.
Agreed. Kind of how a positive of getting your car stolen is that you spend less on gas. Awesome...sign me up!
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I think the only thought is that it gives more playing time for players who will have a larger impact two or three years down the line. But again, that always looks better on paper than it does reality IMO.
This is close to what I have been thinking in terms of how Shaka, or for that matter any coach, is going to build a team for success "two or three years down the road". The combo of immediate transfer availability and NIL are a one-two punch to planning for future development. Shaka will figure out what he needs to do but it will not be the kind of rebuild that fans are accustomed to seeing in the past. It will be a hybrid with the two new factors creating new challenges and opportunities.
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Right. I don't blame Shaka for Carton leaving. And while I don't give him a pass on Garcia, it sure seems like it was an uphill battle to keep him.
My issue is with those trying to rationalize their departures as insignificant or, even worse, actually good for the program. That's ludicrous. Unlike professional sports rebuilds, losing is never good in college.
Did anyone suggest losing Sam Hauser was a good thing for Marquette because it meant more minutes from Brendan Bailey and Jamal Cain?
Wojo was able to "retain" Duane, Deonte, Magic, Teve, JJJ, Todd, Luke, Derrick, Juan, and Sandy. Of those, four soon transferred anyway. Duane and Luke already had burned a red shirt year so they were restricted on movement, and Derrick and Juan were seniors so why transfer?
Of those Buzz recruits, maybe only JJJ fit Wojo's system. Two of those players went on to the NBA. Yet, Marquette had its first losing season since 1988-89.
Shaka has his players in and they have been practicing together for weeks. Frankly, Garcia's abilities and athleticism are not a perfect fit for Shaka's system. Dawson found a program which does and one that will him better achieve his NBA dream, just like Burton did.
Frankly, the cupboard left Shaka is much barer than the one left Wojo. However, Shaka wisely got his guys in, and won't be wasting a few years with uneven roster composition like Wojo did. Having NBA talent on the roster is no assurance of a winning record if mismatched to the system, as we learned in the past.
Justin Lewis, your table is ready.
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And I agree with Blackheart as well.
Having Dawson and Carton gone most definitely hurts the team, BUT only if Dawson and Carton were committed to what Shaka was doing. If they weren't, then its better that they did leave.
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A few thoughts:
1. Teams are going to be built year to year more than ever. Easier transfers, NIL offers to move on, etc. Teams will be building year to year more than before.
2. The idea of building a team three years down the road, balancing classes, etc, is a fan/muscoop thing. It never works out. Put it to bed. This has been the case for a long time, unless you were UW or a mid-major. That being said, Shaka's ability to get players to buy in and not transfer will be a key for MU. Can we be the type of team where players decide Shaka is best for them and we retain more guys than most teams? I hope so. Maybe less volatility, but we will still experience plenty of volatility just like most teams.
3. Not having Carton and Garcia is a blow. Saying anything else doesn't make a lot of sense. Having an NCAA type of team with a couple of star players versus developmental type of players, the choice is easy. Winning builds programs and gets players to come, etc, as mentioned above. Even more so with NIL as mentioned above. Could the team be better than expected, have great team chemistry, players exceed past performance, etc. Sure. But the odds are a lot less likely without two superior players. And yes, they are superior players. i don't buy the idea that other players don't develop with the one year stars here. They can develop, practice, fill in, and grow without being tossed into the fire. Players that are not ready who have to play, that can go either way.
4. Wojo retained players when he came in, at least for the short term. But the transfer rules were different, the players he was retaining were not highly sought out by other teams (in my opinion). Here, immediate playing ability, higher regarded players, etc. Heck, one guy goes to Duke. Yes, Carton going pro is somewhat of a head scratcher, but his original plan was one year and out, so that may make it more understandable. Not sure what goes on behind the scenes. So, there is no nock on Shaka not retaining guys. It was also a very long year for everyone.
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I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.
This times 100
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Wojo was able to "retain" Duane, Deonte, Magic, Teve, JJJ, Todd, Luke, Derrick, Juan, and Sandy. Of those, four soon transferred anyway. Duane and Luke already had burned a red shirt year so they were restricted on movement, and Derrick and Juan were seniors so why transfer?
Of those Buzz recruits, maybe only JJJ fit Wojo's system. Two of those players went on to the NBA. Yet, Marquette had its first losing season since 1988-89.
Shaka has his players in and they have been practicing together for weeks. Frankly, Garcia's abilities and athleticism are not a perfect fit for Shaka's system. Dawson found a program which does and one that will him better achieve his NBA dream, just like Burton did.
Frankly, the cupboard left Shaka is much barer than the one left Wojo. However, Shaka wisely got his guys in, and won't be wasting a few years with uneven roster composition like Wojo did. Having NBA talent on the roster is no assurance of a winning record if mismatched to the system, as we learned in the past.
Justin Lewis, your table is ready.
Also this.
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Wojo was able to "retain" Duane, Deonte, Magic, Teve, JJJ, Todd, Luke, Derrick, Juan, and Sandy. Of those, four soon transferred anyway. Duane and Luke already had burned a red shirt year so they were restricted on movement, and Derrick and Juan were seniors so why transfer?
Of those Buzz recruits, maybe only JJJ fit Wojo's system. Two of those players went on to the NBA. Yet, Marquette had its first losing season since 1988-89.
Shaka has his players in and they have been practicing together for weeks. Frankly, Garcia's abilities and athleticism are not a perfect fit for Shaka's system. Dawson found a program which does and one that will him better achieve his NBA dream, just like Burton did.
Frankly, the cupboard left Shaka is much barer than the one left Wojo. However, Shaka wisely got his guys in, and won't be wasting a few years with uneven roster composition like Wojo did. Having NBA talent on the roster is no assurance of a winning record if mismatched to the system, as we learned in the past.
Justin Lewis, your table is ready.
I appreciate you doing your best to rationalize losing the team's two best players, but what happened with Wojo seven years ago is wholly irrelevant here.
I could use that same flawed logic to argue that retaining Garcia and Carton was a must, because Buzz retained DJ, Jerel, Wes and Lazar and ended up with a team in the Top 10 (pre-DJ injury). That too would be irrelevant, though.
Could you explain how having Dawson and Carton for just one more year creates an "uneven roster" in a way that bringing in one-year players like Morsell and Kuath doesn't? Or how having them take minutes from longer-term/developiing players is bad, but giving those minutes to Morsell and Kuath is good?
You can't honestly make the long-term development argument while bringing in grad transfers to take minutes from younger players. (And note, Shaka is still going after more of those guys, i.e. Cedric Russell).
You lose us on the whole "Shaka's system" thing when you talk about Lewis' table being ready, who seems a far worse fit for what you think is Shaka's system than more skilled and athletic players like Garcia or Carton.
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I think the only thought is that it gives more playing time for players who will have a larger impact two or three years down the line. But again, that always looks better on paper than it does reality IMO.
If your goal is developing the young guys, why bring in Morsell and Kuath, and go after guys like Cedric Russell?
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If your goal is developing the young guys, why bring in Morsell and Kuath, and go after guys like Cedric Russell?
Not my fight, but one could argue we wouldn't have Morsell if Carton were here, so my question to all is; who would you rather have for a year, Carton or Morsell?
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Not my fight, but one could argue we wouldn't have Morsell if Carton were here, so my question to all is; who would you rather have for a year, Carton or Morsell?
Good question. Not sure. Very different players who bring different things to the table. Theyd probably fit well together, tbh.
But that's besides the point. We're being told that losing Carton is a good thing, because he'd be here for just one year and take minutes away from younger players. But if that's true, why bring in Morsell, who will be here for just one year and take minutes away from younger players?
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And I agree with Blackheart as well.
Having Dawson and Carton gone most definitely hurts the team, BUT only if Dawson and Carton were committed to what Shaka was doing. If they weren't, then its better that they did leave.
This is the most correct thing that I've seen posted in this discussion.
If your goal is developing the young guys, why bring in Morsell and Kuath, and go after guys like Cedric Russell?
I'm certainly not in the "losing Carton/Garcia is a positive" camp, but the reason Morsell and Kuath were targeted was because they already play defense at the level Shaka wants from all of his players, and they have the leadership skills to convey that to the younger players in order to help develop them. Carton/Garcia did not have those things. Now that doesn't mean we're better off without them, I'm just addressing this specific question.
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I appreciate you doing your best to rationalize losing the team's two best players, but what happened with Wojo seven years ago is wholly irrelevant here.
I could use that same flawed logic to argue that retaining Garcia and Carton was a must, because Buzz retained DJ, Jerel, Wes and Lazar and ended up with a team in the Top 10 (pre-DJ injury). That too would be irrelevant, though.
Could you explain how having Dawson and Carton for just one more year creates an "uneven roster" in a way that bringing in one-year players like Morsell and Kuath doesn't? Or how having them take minutes from longer-term/developiing players is bad, but giving those minutes to Morsell and Kuath is good?
You can't honestly make the long-term development argument while bringing in grad transfers to take minutes from younger players. (And note, Shaka is still going after more of those guys, i.e. Cedric Russell).
You lose us on the whole "Shaka's system" thing when you talk about Lewis' table being ready, who seems a far worse fit for what you think is Shaka's system than more skilled and athletic players like Garcia or Carton.
Per usual, your take is wrong. I made no such argument about grad transfers or development. I made the argument about roster fit for the system: Get to it now.
Scoop was on me for years about the same argument I made about Wojo. I was told by the Scoop Intelligencia that it takes "five (or seven) years to judge. Thanks now for coming around to my side.
As to the Buzz argument, he was an assistant here and he had a strong hand with the incoming recruiting classes. He also Buzz Cut mismatches like Christopherson and Mbwake. Good players that didn't fit his system. The world did not end.
Like Burton or Mbwake, losing DJ and Dawson are losses. But, they are not system fits nor are they taking up empty scholarship space like occurred under Wojo or Buzz when Burton and Mbwake late transferred.
As to this silly "culture" or "roster composition" hasn't mattered for years argument, Jay Wright and Tony Bennett are on lines 1 and 2.
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The same people who make Vanilla Soft Serve Ice Cream jokes about Joey are crying in their Jimmy John's that we lost Dawson Garcia.
I don't get it.
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For one thing, Dawson is better than Joey.
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For one thing, Dawson is better than Joey.
Dawson was certainly more productive but he was also featured more. Both are soft players.
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Per usual, your take is wrong. I made no such argument about grad transfers or development. I made the argument about roster fit for the system: Get to it now.
Scoop was on me for years about the same argument I made about Wojo. I was told by the Scoop Intelligencia that it takes "five (or seven) years to judge. Thanks now for coming around to my side.
As to the Buzz argument, he was an assistant here and he had a strong hand with the incoming recruiting classes. He also Buzz Cut mismatches like Christopherson and Mbwake. Good players that didn't fit his system. The world did not end.
Like Burton or Mbwake, losing DJ and Dawson are losses. But, they are not system fits nor are they taking up empty scholarship space like occurred under Wojo or Buzz when Burton and Mbwake late transferred.
As to this silly "culture" or "roster composition" hasn't mattered for years argument, Jay Wright and Tony Bennett are on lines 1 and 2.
The system fit argument loses credibility when you tell us Justin Lewis' table is ready. Justin is outstanding and I'm glad he's still at MU,. but it's hard to see how he fits "Shaka'a system"TM better than DJ or Dawson. Also, there seems to be plenty of evidence that Shaka wanted DJ and Dawson to remain, so apparently he was pretty content with their system fits.
And given that Shaka offered Dawson at Texas - I believe Dawson's first high major offer - doesn't that kind of blow a hole in your system fit theory?
The system fit thing is just rationalizing to make ourselves feel better about losing those kids. It's the same thing Badger fans do every time a recruit chooses a different school. We didn't want him anyway. He didn't fit the system. His parents are awful. He cut couldn't cut it academically. Blah, blah.
Look guys, it's OK to admit that losing Dawson sucks. No need to put lipstick on that pig.
And you'll have to point out where I used the word "culture" or called "roster composition" silly. Knocking down straw men is easy, aina?
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I don't see a way that someone can claim losing Carton and Garcia is anything other than a loss.
If basis is they didn't win together, then Moresell and Kuath haven't either. Only now we're trying to make team chemistry happen that would've already been there.
If basis is they were only around one more year then Moresell and Kuath are too.
If basis is they didn't belong in Shaka's culture then why did Shaka try to recruit them when they were younger? And try again to keep them here?
If basis is they're overrated or soft players then what are the players that couldn't even get off the bench or were behind them? (Greg, Osa, Lewis?)
Bottom line is it's a loss. I hope Shaka can get over the hump but if I'm a betting man I'm betting another ugly ugly season is ahead of us.
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Dawson was certainly more productive but he was also featured more. Both are soft players.
Dawson's not soft. He needs to get stronger, but he doesn't play a soft game. In fact, the only reason his lack of strength was so glaring last year is because he tried not to play a soft game.
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Dawson's not soft. He needs to get stronger, but he doesn't play a soft game. In fact, the only reason his lack of strength was so glaring last year is because he tried not to play a soft game.
that's a fair point
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I wouldn't be surprised if that "soft" player gets some all-ACC recognition at the end of next season.
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Dawson's not soft. He needs to get stronger, but he doesn't play a soft game. In fact, the only reason his lack of strength was so glaring last year is because he tried not to play a soft game.
He was also 18 to 19 years old...a teenager. He'll get stronger as he matures plus strength program.
I wish Dawson well. You all should too. He's a kid.
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Dawson and DJ are tremendous basketball talents.
We should only want them here if they bought into Shaka's program.
Would they have if they decided to come here? I have no idea.
There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive. But I don't necessarily think they are negatives either. I guess I don't view this as Shaka "losing" Garcia and Carton. I don't think they were his to lose. I equate it to when a recruit includes MU in their final list but goes somewhere else. We didn't lose the recruit but it is a missed opportunity. String enough missed opportunities together and you have a problem. But losing two players from the last regime after a coaching change? I'm not too worried.
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Dawson and DJ are tremendous basketball talents.
We should only want them here if they bought into Shaka's program.
Agreed. But there's no reason to believe they would not have bought into the program. DJ by all appearances was excited about the hire, and I imagine his reasons for leaving weren't at all related to Shaka.
There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive. But I don't necessarily think they are negatives either. I guess I don't view this as Shaka "losing" Garcia and Carton. I don't think they were his to lose. I equate it to when a recruit includes MU in their final list but goes somewhere else. We didn't lose the recruit but it is a missed opportunity. String enough missed opportunities together and you have a problem. But losing two players from the last regime after a coaching change? I'm not too worried.
I've said before that failing to retain Dawson (or DJ) will have no impact on how we ultimately judge Shaka's tenure at MU, and that's still true. I'm not criticizing Shaka here. I'm criticizing the argument that we're better off without those guys. We're not, unless you've somehow convinced yourself against all evidence that those two would somehow transform into cancerous malcontents under Shaka's leadership.
As for "losing" recruits, that debate has been had here, with some vehemently insisting that it's a "loss" when a recruit chooses another school.
Right, Lenny?
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Fluffy
Thank you for reading, understanding and explaining my post(s) to Pakuni. I’d rather have him think me an idiot over what I said than what I didn’t.
Dr. and Lens
You got Buzz, you got Wojo and you get Shaka. 5-7 years to judge is a cop out.
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Dawson and DJ are tremendous basketball talents.
We should only want them here if they bought into Shaka's program.
Would they have if they decided to come here? I have no idea.
There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive. But I don't necessarily think they are negatives either. I guess I don't view this as Shaka "losing" Garcia and Carton. I don't think they were his to lose. I equate it to when a recruit includes MU in their final list but goes somewhere else. We didn't lose the recruit but it is a missed opportunity. String enough missed opportunities together and you have a problem. But losing two players from the last regime after a coaching change? I'm not too worried.
Some of the same people who are saying that Dawson and Carton leaving are not "losses" for Shaka argued over and over and over again that every time a recruit chose another school it was a "loss" for Wojo. When Grimes chose Kansas, it was Wojo "losing" Grimes -- as if Grimes was ever Wojo's to lose. But when Garcia, who already was at Marquette, chose UNC instead, it's somehow not Shaka "losing" him. (BTW, I don't put Garcia as a "loss" in Shaka's column; and I certainly don't put Grimes as a "loss" in Wojo's column, or Embiid as a "loss" in Buzz's column.)
The other thing I don't get are the Scoopers who seem to assume that Garcia and Carton wouldn't have improved. "Shaka's a great coach, a great motivator, and a guy who develops players" ... but Garcia and Carton wouldn't have improved under him, leaving the team destined to finish with a losing record again? Really?
TAMU, obviously I only want guys who want to be here. I think if Garcia and Carton had stayed, they would have played hard and well for Shaka. I have faith in Shaka's ability to get that out of his players!
Carton would have been a heck of a defensive player under Shaka. And Shaka clearly wanted Garcia -- I mean, he recruited him for Texas for cripe's sake.
This is all typical Scoop silliness ... a bunch of us arguing about stuff that isn't happening and can't be proven. So gold stars for all of us! But the logical leaps are astounding sometimes.
I'm going with your key line, TAMU:
There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive.
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Some of the same people who are saying that Dawson and Carton leaving are not "losses" for Shaka argued over and over and over again that every time a recruit chose another school it was a "loss" for Wojo. When Grimes chose Kansas, it was Wojo "losing" Grimes -- as if Grimes was ever Wojo's to lose. But when Garcia, who already was at Marquette, chose UNC instead, it's somehow not Shaka "losing" him. (BTW, I don't put Garcia as a "loss" in Shaka's column; and I certainly don't put Grimes as a "loss" in Wojo's column, or Embiid as a "loss" in Buzz's column.)
Mike
Whoever said Shaka didn’t “lose” Garcia to UNC?? Certainly not me. He opened up his recruitment, Shaka recruited him and he went elsewhere. That’s a loss. Period. Whether or not we lost him was never even part of the discussion. How big a loss is what we’ve been discussing. Some think it’s huge. I don’t, because I don’t think a few wins next year will mean a whole lot. I’d rather the young guys get PT and leadership from tough, hard nosed guys like Morsell.
As for Carton, he went pro. Not to another school. Anyone who would call that a recruiting “loss” doesn’t get it.
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Some of the same people who are saying that Dawson and Carton leaving are not "losses" for Shaka argued over and over and over again that every time a recruit chose another school it was a "loss" for Wojo. When Grimes chose Kansas, it was Wojo "losing" Grimes -- as if Grimes was ever Wojo's to lose. But when Garcia, who already was at Marquette, chose UNC instead, it's somehow not Shaka "losing" him. (BTW, I don't put Garcia as a "loss" in Shaka's column; and I certainly don't put Grimes as a "loss" in Wojo's column, or Embiid as a "loss" in Buzz's column.)
I think you are conflating my point of view with some others. I think I'm the only one in this thread to bring up the idea of Carton and Garcia not being losses for Shaka. I wasn't trying apply my viewpoint to anyone else's argument, just my own.
TAMU, obviously I only want guys who want to be here. I think if Garcia and Carton had stayed, they would have played hard and well for Shaka. I have faith in Shaka's ability to get that out of his players!
I think we mostly agree but I'll pick this specific nit. I'm of the opinion that if a player commits to a school for the wrong reason, there is often very little that a coach can do to overcome that. That's how we get Hausergates.
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Not my fight, but one could argue we wouldn't have Morsell if Carton were here, so my question to all is; who would you rather have for a year, Carton or Morsell?
I rather have Morsell. The article on him said he plays hard every minute. I do not know for sure why Carton changed his mind about staying, but I can imagine Shaka telling him he was not going to play, if gave the same effort he gave last season. I was disappointed that Garcia left, but I feel the team was better off without Carton.
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I think you are conflating my point of view with some others. I think I'm the only one in this thread to bring up the idea of Carton and Garcia not being losses for Shaka. I wasn't trying apply my viewpoint to anyone else's argument, just my own.
I think we mostly agree but I'll pick this specific nit. I'm of the opinion that if a player commits to a school for the wrong reason, there is often very little that a coach can do to overcome that. That's how we get Hausergates.
We agree.
Mike
Whoever said Shaka didn’t “lose” Garcia to UNC?? Certainly not me. He opened up his recruitment, Shaka recruited him and he went elsewhere. That’s a loss. Period. Whether or not we lost him was never even part of the discussion. How big a loss is what we’ve been discussing. Some think it’s huge. I don’t, because I don’t think a few wins next year will mean a whole lot. I’d rather the young guys get PT and leadership from tough, hard nosed guys like Morsell.
As for Carton, he went pro. Not to another school. Anyone who would call that a recruiting “loss” doesn’t get it.
OK. I'd rather have a shot at the NCAAs this season AND a better future, and I have faith Shaka could have delivered that, but I guess that's just me.
I think we've both beaten this topic to death, resurrected it, and then beaten it to death again. Take care.
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There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive.
Lots of semantics going back and forth, but the bottom line is that if any student-athlete does not want to be at MU (or if they are not invested in improving themselves and the program at MU), then they should definitely not remain here. That is no slight to a player or a coach; it is just different expectations that will cause a root problem for the program this year and moving forward. If Dawson and DJ did not want to be here (which, clearly they didn't), then it is a positive that this decision was made over the summer and not in the Fall, not during the season, not during the BET, not during the NCAAT, etc.
The Wojo-era is over. Looking forward to seeing what Shaka is able to do this year and hopefully many years to come.
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Lots of semantics going back and forth, but the bottom line is that if any student-athlete does not want to be at MU (or if they are not invested in improving themselves and the program at MU), then they should definitely not remain here. That is no slight to a player or a coach; it is just different expectations that will cause a root problem for the program this year and moving forward. If Dawson and DJ did not want to be here (which, clearly they didn't), then it is a positive that this decision was made over the summer and not in the Fall, not during the season, not during the BET, not during the NCAAT, etc.
The Wojo-era is over. Looking forward to seeing what Shaka is able to do this year and hopefully many years to come.
You're not wrong, but I don't recall such nonchalant responses when certain other quality players' departed.
Simply stating that it's tough to see Dawson and DJ go, and we're a lesser team because of it, has nothing to do with the Wojo era or not hoping for the best from the Shaka era. It's unfortunate that some can only view it through those lenses, rather than take it for what it is.
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I rather have Morsell. The article on him said he plays hard every minute. I do not know for sure why Carton changed his mind about staying, but I can imagine Shaka telling him he was not going to play, if gave the same effort he gave last season. I was disappointed that Garcia left, but I feel the team was better off without Carton.
This is wild and unfair speculation crafted to fit a narrative that a very good player who left somehow had a bad attitude or work ethic…capped off with a completely incorrect statement. Save that nonsense for Buckyville
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You're not wrong, but I don't recall such nonchalant responses when certain other quality players' departed.
Simply stating that it's tough to see Dawson and DJ go, and we're a lesser team because of it, has nothing to do with the Wojo era or not hoping for the best from the Shaka era. It's unfortunate that some can only view it through those lenses, rather than take it for what it is.
When the Hausers left, we were expected to be a top-10 team the following season. When Vander left, we were expected to be a tournament team. Both naturally created a wave of emotions for fans when they left (and all were very unexpected). DJ and Dawson both made it known that they could very well stay at MU for only one season (in order to pursue professional opportunities). The team last year, with Dawson and DJ, was not only not good enough to be a tournament team, but the team spiraled downwards as the season went on. That is not because of Dawson and/or DJ individually, but many, like myself, are simply looking to turn the page and move past not just last year, but the last few years in general.
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Frankly, I'm surprised that some Scoopers are willing to let Lewis and Elliott stick around for another year.
Lewis gave Wojo his biggest win of last season. I would think that alone would suggest that Justin has to go ... lest he be cancerous to Shaka's culture.
And Elliott improved under Wojo, which isn't allowed and could really crush Shaka's culture, so he's gotta go!
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Yep. And this didn't even touch on all the people in the various conference offices and NCAA offices who have been getting rich on the backs of the athletes for years.
MU82 needs to be banned.
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It was always speculated on here that DJ was only going to stay at MU for one year before going pro, and sure enough, that happened. Those who followed Dawson’s recruitment closely know he wanted to go to a blue blood all along; the only reason he didn’t end up at UNC originally was they got a commitment from a big who was their first choice and he decided to look elsewhere. And guess what? Now he’s at UNC, just a year later than planned.
It’s very possible that neither of those guys would be at MU this year, even if Wojo was still the coach, and were that to be the case, Marquette fans would really be holding a bag of sh!t right now. Thankfully, the contents of that bag ended up on Wojo’s forehead, and here we are.
If you made me choose between our current situation or another season of Wojo/DJ/Dawson and then see what happens after March 2022, I’d take our current situation every time. If one less year of DJ and Dawson is the sacrifice the program had to make in order to move on from Wojo’s reign of terror, so be it.
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It was always speculated on here that DJ was only going to stay at MU for one year before going pro, and sure enough, that happened. Those who followed Dawson’s recruitment closely know he wanted to go to a blue blood all along; the only reason he didn’t end up at UNC originally was they got a commitment from a big who was their first choice and he decided to look elsewhere. And guess what? Now he’s at UNC, just a year later than planned.
But Kansas and Indiana were in his final 7, so ...
Why are people trying so hard to convince themselves losing Dawson no matta?
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It was always speculated on here that DJ was only going to stay at MU for one year before going pro, and sure enough, that happened. Those who followed Dawson’s recruitment closely know he wanted to go to a blue blood all along; the only reason he didn’t end up at UNC originally was they got a commitment from a big who was their first choice and he decided to look elsewhere. And guess what? Now he’s at UNC, just a year later than planned.
It’s very possible that neither of those guys would be at MU this year, even if Wojo was still the coach, and were that to be the case, Marquette fans would really be holding a bag of sh!t right now. Thankfully, the contents of that bag ended up on Wojo’s forehead, and here we are.
If you made me choose between our current situation or another season of Wojo/DJ/Dawson and then see what happens after March 2022, I’d take our current situation every time. If one less year of DJ and Dawson is the sacrifice the program had to make in order to move on from Wojo’s reign of terror, so be it.
You are presenting something as a black and white that really isn't.
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MU82 needs to be banned.
What exactly about the post you quoted is ban worthy?
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MU82 needs to be banned.
Why?
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You are presenting something as a black and white that really isn't.
How is Silent presenting the situation as black and white? He talks about “speculation” (that was pretty universally accepted), says based on speculation that his next point is “very possible” and then closes with a hypothetical based on said speculation and possibility.
His scenario is presented as opinion and logic given what we know and what we’ve been told. I think he nails it.
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MU82 needs to be banned.
Huh?
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How is Silent presenting the situation as black and white? He talks about “speculation” (that was pretty universally accepted), says based on speculation that his next point is “very possible” and then closes with a hypothetical based on said speculation and possibility.
His scenario is presented as opinion and logic given what we know and what we’ve been told. I think he nails it.
I think because keeping Garcia/Carton and getting Shaka wasn't an either/or situation.
The discussion has been about the impact of not retaining Carton and Dawson. No one has made an argument that we should have kept Wojo in order to keep DJ/Dawson. Everyone agrees that Wojo needed to be fired. So setting up a false choice between keeping Wojo and DJ Dawson and hiring Shaka and losing them isn't logical. It's actually a combination of two logical fallacies.
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No one has made an argument that we should have kept Wojo in order to keep DJ/Dawson.
Maybe not in this particular thread but the “We can’t fire Wojo because we’ll lose DJ/Dawson/Lewis/our recruits and have to start all over again with a major rebuild” has been a common one made by the projos and sosojos on Scoop for a long time.
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Maybe not in this particular thread but the “We can’t fire Wojo because we’ll lose DJ/Dawson/Lewis/our recruits and have to start all over again with a major rebuild” has been a common one made by the projos and sosojos on Scoop for a long time.
Absolutely correct and it was asinine and totally short sighted.
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Maybe not in this particular thread but the “We can’t fire Wojo because we’ll lose DJ/Dawson/Lewis/our recruits and have to start all over again with a major rebuild” has been a common one made by the projos and sosojos on Scoop for a long time.
That ship has sailed, though. If anyone was still arguing Marquette should have kept Wojo to keep those guys and not rebuild, then it would be relevant.
Listen, that was my thinking because I thought they’d end up hiring Porter Moser or a mid-major guy meaning a full rebuild and definite defections. Those expectations changed when Shaka was hired. Plus, he originally offered Garcia out of HS.
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Frankly, I'm surprised that some Scoopers are willing to let Lewis and Elliott stick around for another year.
Lewis gave Wojo his biggest win of last season. I would think that alone would suggest that Justin has to go ... lest he be cancerous to Shaka's culture.
And Elliott improved under Wojo, which isn't allowed and could really crush Shaka's culture, so he's gotta go!
I’m on your side 82 and your schtick is getting old. Can’t you just stop for a couple days? We all get your point.
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I remember it being not exactly "we can't fire Wojo because they'll be a mass exodus", and more "if we do fire Wojo, they'll be a mass exodus". We did, there was, and we will in all likelyhood be worse in 21-22 because of it. Whether or not we'll be better in the long run will be unknown for years.
5 to 7 to be exact.
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Maybe not in this particular thread but the “We can’t fire Wojo because we’ll lose DJ/Dawson/Lewis/our recruits and have to start all over again with a major rebuild” has been a common one made by the projos and sosojos on Scoop for a long time.
If MU didn’t hire Shaka we could be in a completely different situation. Firing Wojo and landing on another mediocre assistant would have been very disastrous. At the end of the day and just like any other coaching change year our roster had tremendous turnover and we needed a strong coach to bring in good talent.
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Maybe not in this particular thread but the “We can’t fire Wojo because we’ll lose DJ/Dawson/Lewis/our recruits and have to start all over again with a major rebuild” has been a common one made by the projos and sosojos on Scoop for a long time.
But again, this isn't a discussion about whether or not we should have fired Wojo. It's a discussion about what the impact of losing Garcia and Carton is.
You and I also remember it differently. Earlier in Wojo's tenure when there was some hope that he could pan out there was some who brought up the possibility of a rebuild as a reason to keep Wojo. I personally never did, I agree with Hutchwas that doing that is incredibly short-sighted. But at the end of Wojo's tenure? There may have been some who said that there will be a rebuild like DJOs said but I don't remember anyone saying that we shouldn't fire him because there would be a rebuild. For a brief two weeks, all of Scoop was united and it was a thing of beauty.
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Firing Wojo and landing on another mediocre assistant would have been very disastrous.
Nobody would disagree that hiring another mediocre assistant (or a crappy head coach) would have been bad. Of course you don’t know whether he’ll be good (KO, Crean, Buzz) or bad (Dukiet, Deane, Wojo) for at least a little while.
You want the definition of “very disastrous” though? Hiring a mediocre assistant who turns out to be a bad head coach because you’re afraid the next guy might be bad too.
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But Kansas and Indiana were in his final 7, so ...
Why are people trying so hard to convince themselves losing Dawson no matta?
Indiana's coach was also fired. Kansas had Mccormick, lightfoot, and wilson. Garcia is only clearly better than lightfoot.
I don't think dawson was leaving no matter what, I do think that after shaka came he wouldnt be in an MU uniform from the start. He overestimated his draft stock because his defense is obsolete.
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How is Silent presenting the situation as black and white? He talks about “speculation” (that was pretty universally accepted), says based on speculation that his next point is “very possible” and then closes with a hypothetical based on said speculation and possibility.
His scenario is presented as opinion and logic given what we know and what we’ve been told. I think he nails it.
Here is what he said.
“If one less year of DJ and Dawson is the sacrifice the program had to make in order to move on from Wojo’s reign of terror, so be it.”
That’s a false choice. We could have fired Wojo AND kept Garcia and Carton. That would have been nice!
But since they didn’t want to be here, they left. And that’s fine too.
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Here is what he said.
“If one less year of DJ and Dawson is the sacrifice the program had to make in order to move on from Wojo’s reign of terror, so be it.”
That’s a false choice. We could have fired Wojo AND kept Garcia and Carton. That would have been nice!
But since they didn’t want to be here, they left. And that’s fine too.
It’s not a false choice. It’s one of 4 possibilities that came with firing Wojo. A)We could have fired Wojo and kept both Cartonk and Garcia. B)We could have fired Wojo and kept Carton and lost Garcia. C) We could have fired Wojo and kept Garcia but lost Carton. D) We could have fired Wojo and lost both.
Those were also the 4 possibilities if we kept Wojo.
His point (a valid one) was that firing Wojo and have it result in “D” was preferable to retaining Wojo regardless of whether it resulted in A,B,C or D.
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I’m on your side 82 and your schtick is getting old. Can’t you just stop for a couple days? We all get your point.
Old Schtick is my aftershave, too.
But your point is duly noted.
The horse was beaten to death in this thread several pages ago, then brought back to life, then beaten to death again, then resuscitated again, lather rinse repeat And it appears no end is in sight.
In other words ... Scoop!
So I'll hang up and listen now. Toodles!
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Nvm
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Maybe not in this particular thread but the “We can’t fire Wojo because we’ll lose DJ/Dawson/Lewis/our recruits and have to start all over again with a major rebuild” has been a common one made by the projos and sosojos on Scoop for a long time.
Lenny just nailed it.
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It’s not a false choice. It’s one of 4 possibilities that came with firing Wojo. A)We could have fired Wojo and kept both Cartonk and Garcia. B)We could have fired Wojo and kept Carton and lost Garcia. C) We could have fired Wojo and kept Garcia but lost Carton. D) We could have fired Wojo and lost both.
Those were also the 4 possibilities if we kept Wojo.
His point (a valid one) was that firing Wojo and have it result in “D” was preferable to retaining Wojo regardless of whether it resulted in A,B,C or D.
I mean he literally said "If you made me choose between our current situation or another season of Wojo/DJ/Dawson..." How is that four possibilities??? He presented it as a binary choice.
And not only that, it's a complete strawman. No one seems to be advocating for "another season of Wojo/DJ/Dawson." I think pretty much everyone here would rather have our current situation.
But I think a fair number of people would rather have Shaka/DJ/Dawson instead of our current situation. And maybe that was never a possibility. Who knows? But that's not how Silent Verbal framed it.
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I mean he literally said "If you made me choose between our current situation or another season of Wojo/DJ/Dawson..." How is that four possibilities??? He presented it as a binary choice.
And not only that, it's a complete strawman. No one seems to be advocating for "another season of Wojo/DJ/Dawson." I think pretty much everyone here would rather have our current situation.
But I think a fair number of people would rather have Shaka/DJ/Dawson instead of our current situation. And maybe that was never a possibility. Who knows? But that's not how Silent Verbal framed it.
I’m just assuming every thread is going to devolve into a Wojo thread like every thread during his tenure seemingly devolved into a thread of other former coaches. At least it’s a new variant.
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Maybe not in this particular thread but the “We can’t fire Wojo because we’ll lose DJ/Dawson/Lewis/our recruits and have to start all over again with a major rebuild” has been a common one made by the projos and sosojos on Scoop for a long time.
When have you seen a significant number of people last make that argument? February or March maybe?
It's July. Wojo's gone. Time for you to move on.
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Indiana's coach was also fired. Kansas had Mccormick, lightfoot, and wilson. Garcia is only clearly better than lightfoot.
You misunderstand. Those schools were in Dawson's final seven before he committed to Marquette, and most believe IU and MU were his final two. The argument that Dawson left now because "he always wanted to play for a blueblood" doesn't really make sense when you acknowledge that Dawson chose Marquette over bluebloods.
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When have you seen a significant number of people last make that argument? February or March maybe?
Those who were making those arguments in March (just before Wojo was canned) would be defending MU on that basis had he been retained. But if they want to rewrite
History on where they stood before the axe fell so be it.
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When have you seen a significant number of people last make that argument? February or March maybe?
It's July. Wojo's gone. Time for you to move on.
Sure glad that most of the Wojo-Dukiet worshippers have moved on, with nary a chirp about how they were wrongfully enamored with their boy.
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Those who were making those arguments in March (just before Wojo was canned) would be defending MU on that basis had he been retained. But if they want to rewrite
History on where they stood before the axe fell so be it.
I'm not really sure that's the case, but whatever helps you sleep at night.
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I was a DJ fan and not a Dawson fan. I thought Dawson was one trick pony and did not live up to being Mc D AA. I thought DJ was fun to watch, but frustrating when he was bad. I am looking ahead and think we will be in a far better place as a program a year from now and not losing sleep over those two leaving.
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I'm not really sure that's the case, but whatever helps you sleep at night.
I am (sure that is) but if you’re having age related comprehension or memory issues there’s probably a pill you can take.
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I am (sure that is) but if you’re having age related comprehension or memory issues there’s probably a pill you can take.
And? I’d have defended them keeping Wojo on a financial basis were he still here. I’ll readily admit it. They didn’t.
I wish Shaka could have kept Dawson Garcia and think the team and program would have been better had they. They didn’t.
I’m cautiously optimistic about the hire but feel the results have been underwhelming thus far.
Why this has devolved into a projo, nojo argument is a matter of d1ck measuring that populates message boards.
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I was a DJ fan and not a Dawson fan. I thought Dawson was one trick pony and did not live up to being Mc D AA. I thought DJ was fun to watch, but frustrating when he was bad. I am looking ahead and think we will be in a far better place as a program a year from now and not losing sleep over those two leaving.
Not sure what your expectations for a McDonald's All American are, but only three from last year's class were responsible for more win shares last year than Dawson (Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley and Jalen Suggs). That's three out of the 21 who went to college.
Only five out of the 21 scored more points per game than Dawson (Cunningham, Mobley, Suggs, Sharife Cooper and Josh Christopher).
Your expectations are your expectations, but it's hard to objectively say Dawson underperformed as a McDonald's All American last year. Especially when you consider that he was below nearly every one of those guys in the class rankings.
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Pakuni
I was not overly impressed with Garcia as a whole, Mc D AA or not. I thought he had one move by the basket and hoisted three point shots. I thought he had a nice season but not one that had me drooling to see what next season would bring. Nothing against the kid and I hope he makes $300 million down the road.
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Those who were making those arguments in March (just before Wojo was canned) would be defending MU on that basis had he been retained. But if they want to rewrite
History on where they stood before the axe fell so be it.
Your argument is now speculation on what you believe someone would have said, if a thing that never happened did in fact happen.
And they're the ones re-wrirtng history?
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I was a DJ fan and not a Dawson fan. I thought Dawson was one trick pony and did not live up to being Mc D AA. I thought DJ was fun to watch, but frustrating when he was bad. I am looking ahead and think we will be in a far better place as a program a year from now and not losing sleep over those two leaving.
Fully agree
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Pakuni
I was not overly impressed with Garcia as a whole, Mc D AA or not. I thought he had one move by the basket and hoisted three point shots. I thought he had a nice season but not one that had me drooling to see what next season would bring. Nothing against the kid and I hope he makes $300 million down the road.
well stated goose guy. i see a lot of frankie k in him and if not for wisky's nice tourny runs, i'm not sure he would have gone that high in the draft. nice players, but more difficult to find the right fit. i thought stevo had it in new york and he was a really good shooter.
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well stated goose guy. i see a lot of frankie k in him and if not for wisky's nice tourny runs, i'm not sure he would have gone that high in the draft. nice players, but more difficult to find the right fit. i thought stevo had it in new york and he was a really good shooter.
Frank Kaminsky was a first team all American and was the consensus national player of the year. If Dawson Garcia is anywhere near that, his loss will be enormous.
But he is nowhere near Frank Kaminsky at this point.
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Frank Kaminsky was a first team all American and was the consensus national player of the year. If Dawson Garcia is anywhere near that, his loss will be enormous.
But he is nowhere near Frank Kaminsky at this point.
i'm comparing their games. yes frankie had a great college career
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i'm comparing their games. yes frankie had a great college career
Kaminsky ended his college career very well but if I recall his 1st 2 years were not good.
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well stated goose guy. i see a lot of frankie k in him and if not for wisky's nice tourny runs, i'm not sure he would have gone that high in the draft. nice players, but more difficult to find the right fit. i thought stevo had it in new york and he was a really good shooter.
Sign me up for a team full of Kaminsky’s that get over drafted because of great college careers
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But he is nowhere near Frank Kaminsky at this point.
If you mean nowhere near NBA bench player and former NPOY Frank Kaminsky as a college freshmen, you're right, Dawson is nowhere near that.
But if you mean freshman year Kaminsky who averaged 1.8 ppg & 1.4 rpg in 7.7 mpg...well, he's nowhere near that either but in a vastly different way.
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Sign me up for a team full of Kaminsky’s that get over drafted because of great college careers
i hear Frankie does a nice job taking care of Jae’s laundry.
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I am with you Goose. Was not impressed with Garcia last year considering all the hype the signing got. Lacks athleticism speed and hops. defense suspect due to above shortcomings. Needs to develop a much more consistent shot . Nice college player but I think upside is limited.
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i hear Frankie does a nice job taking care of Jae’s laundry.
Don’t care. I’d take a team full of guys like him if they can match his college career
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Pakuni
I was not overly impressed with Garcia as a whole, Mc D AA or not. I thought he had one move by the basket and hoisted three point shots. I thought he had a nice season but not one that had me drooling to see what next season would bring. Nothing against the kid and I hope he makes $300 million down the road.
Yep totally agree. DJ was a bigger loss albeit an expected one. Losing JL would’ve been a bigger loss than both.
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i'm comparing styles. garcia had a better freshman year than frankie, no doubt, but frankie developed and earned his place. he actually had a nice few years in carolina. i'm not dissing on the guy(frankie) i've met him, he's as nice a guy as he appears to be on the floor. my nephew went to high school with him and visits him often down in phoenix. my bro-in-law was his 8th grade b-ball coach and often quips, hey frankie, i knew you when you sucked.
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Don’t care. I’d take a team full of guys like him if they can match his college career
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/yqcu3D.gif)
Creeper
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I am with you Goose. Was not impressed with Garcia last year considering all the hype the signing got. Lacks athleticism speed and hops. defense suspect due to above shortcomings. Needs to develop a much more consistent shot . Nice college player but I think upside is limited.
Nah man, Garcia is tall. Dat kounts four somethin', aina?
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Nah man, Garcia is tall. Dat kounts four somethin', aina?
ya mean he gots length, ennn'a so
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I agree Carton was the bigger loss. But those dismissing Garcias talent are crazy
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Don’t care. I’d take a team full of guys like him if they can match his college career
i i think you missed the Badger shot. Probably bad attempt on my part.
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i i think you missed the Badger shot. Probably bad attempt on my part.
I think we all agree Frank Kaminsky can go pound sand
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I agree Carton was the bigger loss. But those dismissing Garcias talent are crazy
spurned lovers, sour grapes, etc.
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TAMU
I think Garcia is a nice player and wish he was returning. That said, I was not a fan of his style of play. No doubt the kid can play, but I am not expecting to become a college AA or NBA star down the road. Have to admit, I have been wrong on a lot of players and he may prove me wrong.
I am very disappointed DJ is not back.
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Garcia was going to be a reincarnation of Scott Merritt. Good size, excellent skills, and a tad soft. I would love to have him on the team, but like many, if given the choice would have taken Carton.
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Dawson Garcia is way better than Scott Merritt was after one year. C'mon....
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Garcia was going to be a reincarnation of Scott Merritt. Good size, excellent skills, and a tad soft. I would love to have him on the team, but like many, if given the choice would have taken Carton.
This post is the scoopiest post of the year so far... running away.
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Wasn't he rated lower than every other all Americans and some who didn't even get chosen in his class? I mean Joey at his peak was rated higher, Markus in his regular class was rated higher, JJJ and Vander were rated on par.
I keep seeing it mentioned that he didn't live up to his hype, but relative to his peers I don't think he was any better or worse. He was also a freshman, ill take those "soft" numbers from a freshman any day whether that's Dawson or Joey or whomever else.
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So far for comparisons we have (all stats from FR years):
Scott Merritt: 18.1mpg, 6.0ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.9 bpg, 61/142 FG (43%), 3/10 3P (30%)
Frank Kaminsky: 7.7 mpg, 1.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.4 bpg, 23/56 FG (41.1%), 10/35 3P (28.6%)
Dawson Garcia: 29.7 mpg, 13.0 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 0.8 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.5 bpg, 121/252 FG (48%), 26/73 (35.6%)
C'mon guys. You can not like Garcia's playstyle but these are hilariously bad comparisons. Kid is a huge talent. Does he have as much upside as Kaminsky? No idea but he was better as a FR than Merritt was a SR.
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So far for comparisons we have (all stats from FR years):
Scott Merritt: 18.1mpg, 6.0ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.9 bpg, 61/142 FG (43%), 3/10 3P (30%)
Frank Kaminsky: 7.7 mpg, 1.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.4 bpg, 23/56 FG (41.1%), 10/35 3P (28.6%)
Dawson Garcia: 29.7 mpg, 13.0 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 0.8 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.5 bpg, 121/252 FG (48%), 26/73 (35.6%)
C'mon guys. You can not like Garcia's playstyle but these are hilariously bad comparisons. Kid is a huge talent. Does he have as much upside as Kaminsky? No idea but he was better as a FR than Merritt was a SR.
Scott Merritt had a winning record at Marquette
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Scott Merritt had a winning record at Marquette
So did Andy Freund. Are you going to argue he was better than Garcia as well?
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So did Andy Freund. Are you going to argue he was better than Garcia as well?
And Mbao
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TAMU
Huge talent is a stretch. DWade was a huge talent. He definitely is better than Merritt and other than both being low energy, tall and skinny, I do not see any comparison between the two.
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Scott Merritt had a winning record at Marquette
You are aware that basketball is a team sport correct?
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TAMU
Huge talent is a stretch. DWade was a huge talent.
Goose, if you want pick at my word choice go ahead. I would say DWade is one of the 25-30 best basketball players of all time. That goes beyond huge talent for me.
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TAMU
Not picking on your word, but disagree that a guy with one move around the basket, limited jumping ability and somewhat soft is a huge talent. Definitely not going to argue about Garcia, the player. As a fan, I was disappointed in what I saw from him last season. Again, I really hope he makes a crazy living in the NBA and no hard feelings regarding his departure.
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Did not say that Merritt was better, just pointing out that there are some similarities. Do not underestimate the value of a pointless debate in the midst of the summer doldrums.
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TAMU
Not picking on your word, but disagree that a guy with one move around the basket, limited jumping ability and somewhat soft is a huge talent. Definitely not going to argue about Garcia, the player. As a fan, I was disappointed in what I saw from him last season. Again, I really hope he makes a crazy living in the NBA and no hard feelings regarding his departure.
What's the over /under on where/whether Garcia gets drafted next year? I would put it at about number 40 (mid second round). I would not be surprised if he has a very good year and sneaks into the first round.
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Did not say that Merritt was better, just pointing out that there are some similarities. Do not underestimate the value of a pointless debate in the midst of the summer doldrums.
It was just a really weird comparison, that's all.
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I understand some of flak towards Garcia. He's gone and a lot of you want to minimalize what he did. I thought he was terrific as a freshman. His biggest weakness was a lack of strength. Which is understandable considering he didn't come on campus until September. Meanwhile our current batch of FR have been working with Todd since June. Given a Summer working with a NCAA strength and conditioning coach would greatly improve his physical conditioning/strength. If not. Then why have the team have strenuous workouts in the summer? Dawson is probably on the UNC campus or heading there shortly. You'll see a different physical specimen come November and it will be seen in his play. He was a big, big, loss. For comparison. OMP had 41 rebs and 54 points for THE ENTIRE YEAR. That's averaging 10 minutes a game. For those who have seen Joplin play last year. Do you think he had the physical characteristics to play in the BE at the end of his HS career? I don't. But with a summer working out. Hopefully that will change.
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Well said. Garcia had a very good freshman year by any measure.
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I understand some of flak towards Garcia. He's gone and a lot of you want to minimalize what he did. I thought he was terrific as a freshman. His biggest weakness was a lack of strength. Which is understandable considering he didn't come on campus until September. Meanwhile our current batch of FR have been working with Todd since June. Given a Summer working with a NCAA strength and conditioning coach would greatly improve his physical conditioning/strength. If not. Then why have the team have strenuous workouts in the summer? Dawson is probably on the UNC campus or heading there shortly. You'll see a different physical specimen come November and it will be seen in his play. He was a big, big, loss. For comparison. OMP had 41 rebs and 54 points for THE ENTIRE YEAR. That's averaging 10 minutes a game. For those who have seen Joplin play last year. Do you think he had the physical characteristics to play in the BE at the end of his HS career? I don't. But with a summer working out. Hopefully that will change.
Spot on.
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Dawson has more issues than just strength. His measurables taken at the G League Camp last month demonstrate that. His vertical is low as we saw first hand as he had his shot blocked by guards last season. His reach is not much for his height. His quickness in the cone drills was very low. His hand size is small. He was pretty much in the bottom quarter of that camp group in almost every category tested other than his height (he was measured at 6’10.5” in shoes). Bottom line is that he is not overly athletic or physically gifted other than that height. But, he is a very skilled player with that height. Will extra strength help? Sure, but he has a lot more to work on to make it in the NBA. Very good college guy, but the NBA is going to take a lot work over time for Dawson. Wish him well.
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Dawson has more issues than just strength. His measurables taken at the G League Camp last month demonstrate that. His vertical is low as we saw first hand as he had his shot blocked by guards last season. His reach is not much for his height. His quickness in the cone drills was very low. His hand size is small. He was pretty much in the bottom quarter of that camp group in almost every category tested other than his height (he was measured at 6’10.5” in shoes). Bottom line is that he is not overly athletic or physically gifted other than that height. But, he is a very skilled player with that height. Will extra strength help? Sure, but he has a lot more to work on to make it in the NBA. Very good college guy, but the NBA is going to take a lot work over time for Dawson. Wish him well.
I'm not terribly concerned about his NBA future.
I'm disappointed that Marquette will be without a kid who - even you admit - is a very good college player. Trying to minimize that loss by downplaying his NBA prospects doesn't really make sense.
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I'm not terribly concerned about his NBA future.
I'm disappointed that Marquette will be without a kid who - even you admit - is a very good college player. Trying to minimize that loss by downplaying his NBA prospects doesn't really make sense.
I agree that we certainly will miss Dawson. I was just responding to the strength comment. As good as he was as a frosh, he still has a lot of work to do whether it’s in college or the pros.
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I would be saying the exact same about Garcia had he returned.
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Don't give no chit 'bout Garcia, hey?
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I am sure he feels the same about you.
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Don't give no chit 'bout Garcia, hey?
You must. You’ve posted in this thread a few times saying that
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TAMU
Not picking on your word, but disagree that a guy with one move around the basket, limited jumping ability and somewhat soft is a huge talent. Definitely not going to argue about Garcia, the player. As a fan, I was disappointed in what I saw from him last season.
I guess I'm impressed that a guy with only one move around the basket, limited jumping ability, and is somewhat soft put up an efficient 13 points and 6.6 rebounds a game playing against high majors most nights. He must have been pretty skilled to overcome those deficiencies.
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I would be saying the exact same about Garcia had he returned.
You don't believe he would have improved -- perhaps significantly -- under a coach you have trumpeted for months as great at developing (as well as acquiring) talent?
And BTW, I agree with you that Carton was a bigger loss. I think he would have been one of the best players in the BE this season. I was thrilled when it looked like he not only was coming back but was very enthusiastic about it. Someday, I'd love to hear the truth of what happened (as opposed to Scoop speculation) to make him go from actually trying to recruit players to join him at Marquette for Year 1 under Shaka to saying adios.
Not saying this is you, Goose, but one problem I've had with this entire discussion is that some folks don't seem to realize that college athletes generally improve over time. They look at what Garcia and/or Carton did last season under Wojo and say, "Meh ... we don't need that." I mean, Jimmy Butler became a pretty darn good basketball player. So did Acker. So did Markus. So did Sam. So did (fill in the blank with the name of a first-year MU player who was considerably better as a second-year player).
Whatevs. They're gone and life goes on. Scoop just mystifies me sometimes.
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I guess I'm impressed that a guy with only one move around the basket, limited jumping ability, and is somewhat soft put up an efficient 13 points and 6.6 rebounds a game playing against high majors most nights. He must have been pretty skilled to overcome those deficiencies.
It will be a victory if any of our first year bigs or Osa average 13-6. Lewis, I can see.
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It will be a victory if any of our first year bigs or Osa average 13-6. Lewis, I can see.
I’m very excited to see Justin Lewis as a sophomore with a full off-season. Maybe we need to focus on the guys coming back and all move forward?
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I think Lewis will be crucial. Good luck with the second part.
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MU82
Sure, Dawson may improve a great deal over the next couple of years and I hope he does. I think he has plenty room for improvement. As for trumpeting player improvement with Shaka, I do not believe I ever said that. If I did, I was blitzed because I have no idea if Shaka has long history of making guys better. Trumpeted his recruiting and style of play for months and stick with that belief.
As noted in previous posts, I am not happy that Garcia left but life goes on. Thought he was a nice player and wish him well.
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I’m very excited to see Justin Lewis as a sophomore with a full off-season. Maybe we need to focus on the guys coming back and all move forward?
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o6YglDndxKdCNw7q8/giphy.gif?cid=790b76118fc8c9ec319df395b03c42c43ade18bc90919549&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
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(https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o6YglDndxKdCNw7q8/giphy.gif?cid=790b76118fc8c9ec319df395b03c42c43ade18bc90919549&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
A person can wish
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I guess I'm impressed that a guy with only one move around the basket, limited jumping ability, and is somewhat soft put up an efficient 13 points and 6.6 rebounds a game playing against high majors most nights. He must have been pretty skilled to overcome those deficiencies.
Exactly. He put up numbers comparable to Davante Gardner's senior year... and with no one but DJ Carton to draw defenders away from him.
As a Freshman. People here trashing Dawson's performance last year certainly are big fans of the Davante's.
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I'm disappointed in the losses of Garcia and Carton for two sightly different but related reasons.
Garcia led the G League combine in scoring & still didn't get a NBA Combine invite. That clearly indicates his problems are on the defensive end. Offensively, he's great. He's efficient, can score at multiple levels, and was one of the best offensive freshmen in the country. But defensively he would've really benefited from a coach that will have put 6 bigs in the NBA draft the last 5 years once this year is done. Shaka is the exact kind of coach Garcia needs to get where he wants to go. Maybe Davis or someone else can get him there, but I'm not sure anyone in recent times is better at getting bigs to the NBA than Shaka. Seems a mistake to leave.
As far as Carton, he has all the ability and none of the discipline. His raw ability was a perfect fit for a guy like DeAndre Haynes that helped develop Zavier Simpson, Anthony Cowan, and Darryl Morsell. I think Carton would've thrived in this system in ways he never did under Wojo.
But alas, we are where we are. Best of luck, hope they find what they want elsewhere.
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As far as Carton, he has all the ability and none of the discipline. His raw ability was a perfect fit for a guy like DeAndre Haynes that helped develop Zavier Simpson, Anthony Cowan, and Darryl Morsell. I think Carton would've thrived in this system in ways he never did under Wojo.
Given how positively DJ (and even his mom) reacted to the hiring, I strongly suspect his decision to leave had nothing to do Shaka or Marquette. It may be just that he decided college wasn't for him, or was in a situation where he needed to provide for himself and his family, even if that means playing abroad.
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MU82
Sure, Dawson may improve a great deal over the next couple of years and I hope he does. I think he has plenty room for improvement. As for trumpeting player improvement with Shaka, I do not believe I ever said that. If I did, I was blitzed because I have no idea if Shaka has long history of making guys better. Trumpeted his recruiting and style of play for months and stick with that belief.
As noted in previous posts, I am not happy that Garcia left but life goes on. Thought he was a nice player and wish him well.
Fair. Thanks for the answer. Have a nice night.
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(https://cdns.webareacontrol.com/prodimages/1000-X-1000/5/L/58201522HealthCraft-SuperPole-Bariatric-with-SuperBar-L-L.png)
S U P E R B A R
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I'm disappointed in the losses of Garcia and Carton for two sightly different but related reasons.
Garcia led the G League combine in scoring & still didn't get a NBA Combine invite. That clearly indicates his problems are on the defensive end. Offensively, he's great. He's efficient, can score at multiple levels, and was one of the best offensive freshmen in the country. But defensively he would've really benefited from a coach that will have put 6 bigs in the NBA draft the last 5 years once this year is done. Shaka is the exact kind of coach Garcia needs to get where he wants to go. Maybe Davis or someone else can get him there, but I'm not sure anyone in recent times is better at getting bigs to the NBA than Shaka. Seems a mistake to leave.
As far as Carton, he has all the ability and none of the discipline. His raw ability was a perfect fit for a guy like DeAndre Haynes that helped develop Zavier Simpson, Anthony Cowan, and Darryl Morsell. I think Carton would've thrived in this system in ways he never did under Wojo.
But alas, we are where we are. Best of luck, hope they find what they want elsewhere.
Good post, Brew.
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Some guys see the grind as opportunity,
Some guys see the grind as work
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OT...
Some guys see the grind as opportunity,
Some guys see the grind as work
My wife sees tending the land around our house as gardening. I see it as yard work. As we get older, I've started advocating for a "transfer" to a condo-type set up.
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TAMU
I think Garcia is a nice player and wish he was returning. That said, I was not a fan of his style of play. No doubt the kid can play, but I am not expecting to become a college AA or NBA star down the road. Have to admit, I have been wrong on a lot of players and he may prove me wrong.
Somewhere in the internet universe is me proclaiming that both Tre Young and Ja Morant will be huge NBA busts.
Still shocked no NBA team has offered me a scouting job.
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The Garcia situation reminds me of something that happened many years ago with the Badgers. In the early 80s the Badgers had a very strong recruiting class led by a guy named Brad Sellers as well as Corey Blackwell and Scott Roth all three who eventually went to play in the NBA . For those to young to remember, Sellers was one of the first super tall , skinny and talented big man. He was 7 feet and barely 200 pounds. Unfortunately for the Badgers they had a Bad Coach , who just like our mediocre coach, was named Steve. So the Badgers went 6-21 and 8-20 in Sellers first two years. Despite having a team with 3 future NBA players. Sellers played well and put up numbers those two years but ended up transferred to Ohio State. When he got to Ohio State, the head coach was Eldon Miller, who was essentially the Mike Deane of Ohio State coaches. Sellers was paired with Dennis Hopson who was Ohio States all time leading scorer , All American etc. Sellers was a lottery pick (9th) and Hopson was picked 3rd. Despite all this talent, the lousy of coaching of Miller resulted in a 3rd and 7th place finish in the Big Ten.
I am pointing this out because I believe in the top down approach to winning. Have to start with a good coach. Coach lays down the philosophies and foundation of what makes a winning team. It is really easy to get caught up in the individual performances but it is a team sport( The Brad Sellers saga) and the bottom line is winning.
On the whole I believe our coaching staff this year is substantially improved and our composite roster is more than strong enough to compete for that 3rd spot in the Big East after Nova and U Conn.
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Hope you are right on this years team Herm. Agreed that coaching is the major advantage over the long run in team sports. Great players and bad coaching gets you mediocrity.
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Herman, good story. Only inaccuracy is that Bill Cofield was the head coach that recruited those three to Wisconsin and coached them their first year. Yoder came in their second year, only to be just as terrible. That coaching search was a fiasco because their first choice was the head coach of UW-Eau Claire - a guy named Ken Anderson. The AD at the time, Elroy Hirsch, skipped his introductory press conference to go on a Caribbean cruise, and his assistant kept calling him the wrong name. So Anderson went back to Eau Claire, and they ended up with Yoder.
BTW, one of Cofield's proteges, who Cofield brought to Wisconsin, was none other than....Bo Ryan.
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Herman, good story. Only inaccuracy is that Bill Cofield was the head coach that recruited those three to Wisconsin and coached them their first year. Yoder came in their second year, only to be just as terrible. That coaching search was a fiasco because their first choice was the head coach of UW-Eau Claire - a guy named Ken Anderson. The AD at the time, Elroy Hirsch, skipped his introductory press conference to go on a Caribbean cruise, and his assistant kept calling him the wrong name. So Anderson went back to Eau Claire, and they ended up with Yoder.
BTW, one of Cofield's proteges, who Cofield brought to Wisconsin, was none other than....Bo Ryan.
Legend has it that Cofield believed in NIL long before anyone else.
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BTW, one of Cofield's proteges, who Cofield brought to Wisconsin, was none other than....Bo Ryan.
And where St. Bo earned himself a NCAA Elba banishment to Platteville that eventually got Cofield fired.
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There are two things Wisconsin-born sports fans who grew up in the 90s and beyond can’t comprehend: The Packers and Badgers sucking on a very consistent basis.
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And where St. Bo earned himself a NCAA Elba banishment to Platteville that eventually got Cofield fired.
Ryan was an assistant under Yoder for a couple seasons though.
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There are two things Wisconsin-born sports fans who grew up in the 90s and beyond can’t comprehend: The Packers and Badgers sucking on a very consistent basis.
Yep. Hard to believe a good segment of adult population in WI can only remember a future first ballot HOF at QB for the Packers.
I remember a late 80’s chant at the new Bradley Center “Bad-ger Foot-ball”. 😆
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Ryan was an assistant under Yoder for a couple seasons though.
Wasn’t he gone to Platteville before Yoder arrived?
NM. He was on Yoder’s bench two seasons
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Ryan was an assistant under Yoder for a couple seasons though.
Bo paid players. Squirmy. Fact
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Bo paid players. Squirmy. Fact
FWIW, when he was at Milwaukee, he’d take his players golfing and open the charge card and let them use it to buy stuff from the pro shop along with paying for the golf and lunch. For me, this is a shrug your shoulders thing. It did bring me to a smile when Bagder fans would rant and rave about St. Bo, though. I don’t have a problem with him doing what I described but the idea he was above board is laughable
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FWIW, when he was at Milwaukee, he’d take his players golfing and open the charge card and let them use it to buy stuff from the pro shop along with paying for the golf and lunch. For me, this is a shrug your shoulders thing. It did bring me to a smile when Bagder fans would rant and rave about St. Bo, though. I don’t have a problem with him doing what I described but the idea he was above board is laughable
better dead, than RED…but I’d take Bo. Yup.
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FWIW, when he was at Milwaukee, he’d take his players golfing and open the charge card and let them use it to buy stuff from the pro shop along with paying for the golf and lunch. For me, this is a shrug your shoulders thing. It did bring me to a smile when Bagder fans would rant and rave about St. Bo, though. I don’t have a problem with him doing what I described but the idea he was above board is laughable
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-07-22-8502170750-story,amp.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-01-22-8601060733-story,amp.html
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Bo paid players. Squirmy. Fact
Not debating that in the least. Ryan’s move to Platteville happened years after Cofield was fired.
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Not debating that in the least. Ryan’s move to Platteville happened years after Cofield was fired.
Cofield's last season was 1981-82. Bo's first year in exile in Platteville was 84-85. Bo set up the loan under Cofield, and under Yoder they thought the idea of transferring rather than reporting the loan was a good idea (double squirmy).
So, Bo helped bring down two coaches (who knows how much Finley was paid). Yoder was on the chopping block with that move per the articles from that time but he got off with a reprimand. Bo was sent parts west.
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Cofield's last season was 1981-82. Bo's first year in exile in Platteville was 84-85. Bo set up the loan under Cofield, and under Yoder they thought the idea of transferring rather than reporting the loan was a good idea (double squirmy).
So, Bo helped bring down two coaches (who knows how much Finley was paid). Yoder was on the chopping block with that move per the articles from that time but he got off with a reprimand. Bo was sent parts west.
Gotcha. Didn't get a lot of bang for his buck win wise.
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Awesome Story Herm hope you are correct.
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Awesome Story Herm hope you are correct.
Heard from someone who has played against Carton and against and with Kur Kuath.
He feels Carton and Garcia were both “very good players” as evidenced by North Carolina. Darryl Morsell is an excellent replacement if not better than Carton overall especially when it comes to winning. As far as Replacing Garcia. Garcia was excellent but Kur is not as good but a very good player defensively and about as good when it comes to winning. I feel with Lewis playing more and maybe Joplin and others we will be alright. Am trying to relay what I was told to the best of my knowledge.
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Dawson wearing an edited Marquette jersey in his first endorsement.
https://twitter.com/jimmysseafood/status/1419996622092738561?s=21
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Dawson wearing an edited Marquette jersey in his first endorsement.
https://twitter.com/jimmysseafood/status/1419996622092738561?s=21
how much money he make for somthing like thus
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Also has a camp now. Wasting no time with the NIL.
https://twitter.com/dawson23lee/status/1419763980420190212?s=21
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This is the way elite programs will do better going forward and get highly rated recruits. No kid is going to a camp hosted by athletes from Winona State, aina?
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how much money he make for somthing like thus
Here's the connection:
http://baltimore.unc.alumnispaces.com/event/jimmys-unc-tar-heel-road-trip/ (http://baltimore.unc.alumnispaces.com/event/jimmys-unc-tar-heel-road-trip/)
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This is the way elite programs will do better going forward and get highly rated recruits. No kid is going to a camp hosted by athletes from Winona State, aina?
Yeah, because Winona State was so competitive with the elite programs on the recruiting trail before players could profit off their NIL.
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C'mon man, you know NIL profitability isn't going to benefit MU at this time. The rich will be getting richer, hey?
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C'mon man, you know NIL profitability isn't going to benefit MU at this time. The rich will be getting richer, hey?
Step up n pey deeze guyz dock, ai'na?
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Forgive me if this was answered earlier, but are schools restricted from "setting up" NIL opportunities for players? I know many schools now have advisors on NIL, social media, etc., but I'm not sure if they're essentially passive resources or if they can act essentially as agents from the NIL perspective.
I ask because, as others have said, Dawson wasted no time getting in on the game at UNC. I wonder if some of this was pre-arranged and part of their recruitment pitch?
Also, I guarantee that MU is not happy about one of their images being photoshopped and used for commercial purposes, particularly with someone no longer affiliated with the university. In fact, I wouldn't doubt if Dawson's "ad" disappears sometime soon. The copyright and trademark issues that will pop up with NIL will be interesting - it's going to take some time for some to realize that they can't just use existing images that they find on the internet.
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C'mon man, you know NIL profitability isn't going to benefit MU at this time. The rich will be getting richer, hey?
Jimmy's Seafood Buffet is big money, aina?
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Jimmy's Seafood Buffet is big money, aina?
This is what gets me. I find it funny that the JSB sponsorship deal is any type of draw for a player and that this type of stuff had been deemed high crimes by the NCAA. Dolla dolla bills, y’all?
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Forgive me if this was answered earlier, but are schools restricted from "setting up" NIL opportunities for players? I know many schools now have advisors on NIL, social media, etc., but I'm not sure if they're essentially passive resources or if they can act essentially as agents from the NIL perspective.
I ask because, as others have said, Dawson wasted no time getting in on the game at UNC. I wonder if some of this was pre-arranged and part of their recruitment pitch?
Also, I guarantee that MU is not happy about one of their images being photoshopped and used for commercial purposes, particularly with someone no longer affiliated with the university. In fact, I wouldn't doubt if Dawson's "ad" disappears sometime soon. The copyright and trademark issues that will pop up with NIL will be interesting - it's going to take some time for some to realize that they can't just use existing images that they find on the internet.
schools cannot be directly involved in setting up deals. That doesn't mean they won't indirectly set things up. Penn State's AD sent the message to their alumni to take care of their athletes. (“Penn State’s brand and 700,000 living alumni are huge advantages for our students as they explore these new opportunities to make an impact.”)
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Jimmy's Seafood Buffet is big money, aina?
free trips to Margaritaville is a nice bonus.
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free trips to Margaritaville is a nice bonus.
Now taxable ;)
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This is what gets me. I find it funny that the JSB sponsorship deal is any type of draw for a player and that this type of stuff had been deemed high crimes by the NCAA. Dolla dolla bills, y’all?
Jimmy's Famous is a $19 mil/yr business, with 110 employees, according to my googling skills. They have 3 college "endorsers" (Garcia, Bacot, and a MD FB player). They also have given free crab cakes for life to several pro players (which knowing the price of crab now, is a pretty good gig).
Surely MU grads can have some endorsement money lying aroung. Thredup, maybe?
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Jimmy's Famous is a $19 mil/yr business, with 110 employees, according to my googling skills. They have 3 college "endorsers" (Garcia, Bacot, and a MD FB player). They also have given free crab cakes for life to several pro players (which knowing the price of crab now, is a pretty good gig).
Surely MU grads can have some endorsement money lying aroung. Thredup, maybe?
Allen Edmonds shoes for the entire team?
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Allen Edmonds shoes for the entire team?
Might even get a few McKinsey recruits with that one if you throw in a vest.
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Allen Edmonds shoes for the entire team?
WWBD. What Would Barry Alvarez Do?
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I've been thinking about this NIL stuff. It seems to me that a basketball only school could have a big advantage here due having far fewer mouths to feed. Alabama basketball players have a long line in front of them at the endorsement door.
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WWBD. What Would Barry Alvarez Do?
Probably eat something.
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I've been thinking about this NIL stuff. It seems to me that a basketball only school could have a big advantage here due having far fewer mouths to feed. Alabama basketball players have a long line in front of them at the endorsement door.
I like this take and hope you are right. NIL is the elephant in the room.
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I've been thinking about this NIL stuff. It seems to me that a basketball only school could have a big advantage here due having far fewer mouths to feed. Alabama basketball players have a long line in front of them at the endorsement door.
Given that a football-only school like Alabama typically has a much larger student body (and alumni base) than most basketball only schools, that advantage probably isn't as big as you think.
Then you have to consider the fact that a large state school gets much broader support in general--they get a lot of defacto support across the state.
Couple that with the likelihood that the athletic department is keeping tabs on who's supporting which players/teams. Which Alabama booster do you think is going to get the private dinners, pregame events, special access, bowl ticket access, etc? The boosters who only support football players or those who dig a little bit deeper and support basketball (and other sports) as well?
I think its wishful thinking that a small, private basketball-only school would have any significant advantage over a large state school.
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Given that a football-only school like Alabama typically has a much larger student body (and alumni base) than most basketball only schools, that advantage probably isn't as big as you think.
Then you have to consider the fact that a large state school gets much broader support in general--they get a lot of defacto support across the state.
Couple that with the likelihood that the athletic department is keeping tabs on who's supporting which players/teams. Which Alabama booster do you think is going to get the private dinners, pregame events, special access, bowl ticket access, etc? The boosters who only support football players or those who dig a little bit deeper and support basketball (and other sports) as well?
I think its wishful thinking that a small, private basketball-only school would have any significant advantage over a large state school.
Does Alabama have a city the size of Milwaukee? What's the size of Alabama's state population? How many are Auburn fans? How Many are ultrawealthy? The Florida schools, Georgia and the Texas (eventually two) schools should have a big advantage over Alabama in regards to the value of NIL deals. I see the NIL leading to a shift in the power balance in the SEC over time. Florida, Texas and California schools should have a dominating advantage in recruiting, due to NIL.
New York has loads of possibilities, but how popular is Syracuse statewide? I honestly don't know. Marquette needs to worry about the Big East New York metro schools, Villanova, and DePaul (should it decide to get its crap together) much more than most state schools when it comes to NIL competition, as well the state schools from the aforementioned ultrawealthy states.
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C'mon man, you know NIL profitability isn't going to benefit MU at this time. The rich will be getting richer, hey?
So you'd agree then that completely free markets or markets with little regulation are bad for the majority?
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Does Alabama have a city the size of Milwaukee? What's the size of Alabama's state population? How many are Auburn fans? How Many are ultrawealthy? The Florida schools, Georgia and the Texas (eventually two) schools should have a big advantage over Alabama in regards to the value of NIL deals. I see the NIL leading to a shift in the power balance in the SEC over time. Florida, Texas and California schools should have a dominating advantage in recruiting, due to NIL.
New York has loads of possibilities, but how popular is Syracuse statewide? I honestly don't know. Marquette needs to worry about the Big East New York metro schools, Villanova, and DePaul (should it decide to get its crap together) much more than most state schools when it comes to NIL competition, as well the state schools from the aforementioned ultrawealthy states.
For football, its going to be more $$ nationally rather than locally. I see last years backup QB for Alabama signed a deal with cashapp. He has over 800K in endorsements so far.
I feel basketball is going to be peanuts compared to football. To me, build a winning team and the endorsements will come, not the other way around.
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Does Alabama have a city the size of Milwaukee? What's the size of Alabama's state population? How many are Auburn fans? How Many are ultrawealthy? The Florida schools, Georgia and the Texas (eventually two) schools should have a big advantage over Alabama in regards to the value of NIL deals. I see the NIL leading to a shift in the power balance in the SEC over time. Florida, Texas and California schools should have a dominating advantage in recruiting, due to NIL.
New York has loads of possibilities, but how popular is Syracuse statewide? I honestly don't know. Marquette needs to worry about the Big East New York metro schools, Villanova, and DePaul (should it decide to get its crap together) much more than most state schools when it comes to NIL competition, as well the state schools from the aforementioned ultrawealthy states.
If we are being honest, unless a company is run by an MU alum, I’d anticipate a company using NIL money on a UW player or UWM player
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If we are being honest, unless a company is run by an MU alum, I’d anticipate a company using NIL money on a UW player or UWM player
If a person is going to spend NIL money on a local player in Milwaukee and picks UWM over MU (exception of Pat Baldwin Jr for 1yr) then that person shouldn't be in business
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For football, its going to be more $$ nationally rather than locally. I see last years backup QB for Alabama signed a deal with cashapp. He has over 800K in endorsements so far.
I feel basketball is going to be peanuts compared to football. To me, build a winning team and the endorsements will come, not the other way around.[/b]
True, but the NIL train may be leaving the station before we are on board. If basketball is going to get peanuts as you suggest, maybe we can somehow still get our guys set up as Shaka develops a "winning team" over the next two seasons. The best recruits are almost certainly already looking at NIL opportunities before committing. I know that Garcia is an extreme example but I would find it very difficult to believe that deals for him were not already on the planning board. NIL is still the elephant in the room and I hope it does not take a dump on us.
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I spoke with a friend in Arizona athletics yesterday. He said a certain transfer recruit that went off to an ACC school told the staff that the school had "guaranteed" at least $600k in NIL benefits, which is why he chose them.
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If we are being honest, unless a company is run by an MU alum, I’d anticipate a company using NIL money on a UW player or UWM player
If NIL were in place a couple years ago, Markus Howard would have been much more popular than anyone UW would have had.
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If NIL were in place a couple years ago, Markus Howard would have been much more popular than anyone UW would have had.
Idk, Ethan Happ and Davison seem to fit the WI Golden boy stereotype
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I spoke with a friend in Arizona athletics yesterday. He said a certain transfer recruit that went off to an ACC school told the staff that the school had "guaranteed" at least $600k in NIL benefits, which is why he chose them.
From what school did they transfer?
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To me, build a winning team and the endorsements will come, not the other way around.
Right. We haven't seen much (or any?) NIL news for MU hoops because we don't really have any Names that businesses think would benefit them. Yet. If Garcia would have returned, I bet that would be different.
If NIL were in place a couple years ago, Markus Howard
Yup. Cut the rest of the quote. But he could have made some money.
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Idk, Ethan Happ and Davison seem to fit the WI Golden boy stereotype
Davison would have definitely got NIL money from The Nutman Co.
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Davison would have definitely got NIL money from The Nutman Co.
Shock Doctor Athletic Cups
"Protect Your Nuts from Mayhem like Brad Davison"
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If a person is going to spend NIL money on a local player in Milwaukee and picks UWM over MU (exception of Pat Baldwin Jr for 1yr) then that person shouldn't be in business
UWM may have been going a little far. Although, having been in some discussions about donations to schools, and alumni at the top can drive money towards their school, even if it doesn’t always make sense.
Then again, based on the hierarchy of sports in Wisconsin, UW football would be the first stop when looking at college athletes.
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UWM may have been going a little far. Although, having been in some discussions about donations to schools, and alumni at the top can drive money towards their school, even if it doesn’t always make sense.
Then again, based on the hierarchy of sports in Wisconsin, UW football would be the first stop when looking at college athletes.
Yeah I mean it depends on market segment. If I'm targeting inner city Milwaukeans I'd go MUBB, if I'm a skate rink up north I'd go UW hockey. The majority of random businesses should use UW football, but itll be telling what businesses are doing this to boost consideration/revenue and whos just doing it to help their favorite team recruit based on if they're trying to appeal to their target demographic.