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Author Topic: What's the word on Garcia?  (Read 162071 times)

The Equalizer

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #975 on: July 11, 2021, 01:18:13 PM »

But the reaction here that we didn’t need these guys anyway … and they really weren’t that good … and they lost under Wojo so good riddance … etc etc etc … it smacks of Madison fans rationalizing lost recruits by saying Bo cooled on em.

Not to mention current opinions are 180 degrees of phase with the narrative created to justify getting rid of Wojo. 

To listen to many here on the board, we had the talent last year at minimum to easily make the NCAA tournament and some even though we could challenge Villanova for the league title.   If only we had better coaching...


MU82

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #976 on: July 11, 2021, 01:48:24 PM »
Not to mention current opinions are 180 degrees of phase with the narrative created to justify getting rid of Wojo. 

To listen to many here on the board, we had the talent last year at minimum to easily make the NCAA tournament and some even though we could challenge Villanova for the league title.   If only we had better coaching...

Wojo had to go. I'm glad he's our ex-coach and I'm optimistic that Shaka can give us a program we're all proud of.

But if folks can shrug their shoulders about Garcia and Carton leaving because they only want guys who "wanna bee here wherein' the blue and gold" and "who are all
in," then obviously those same folks should have shrugged their shoulders and said "ez come ez go" about The Lettermen, too.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #977 on: July 11, 2021, 02:49:26 PM »
Wojo had to go. I'm glad he's our ex-coach and I'm optimistic that Shaka can give us a program we're all proud of.

But if folks can shrug their shoulders about Garcia and Carton leaving because they only want guys who "wanna bee here wherein' the blue and gold" and "who are all
in," then obviously those same folks should have shrugged their shoulders and said "ez come ez go" about The Lettermen, too.

I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.

dad's couch

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #978 on: July 11, 2021, 03:26:23 PM »
Lots of talk about culture lately. Just interested in what was the culture brought to Texas and how successful was it?

MU82

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #979 on: July 11, 2021, 04:34:24 PM »
I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.

If you don't think we'd have had a pretty darn good year with the guys Shaka brought in playing alongside Garcia and Carton, Tony, it doesn't show much faith in Shaka's coaching ability. I guess I give him far more credit than you do.

As for the Lettermen ... they quit on our alma mater, ruining a promising season in the process. That neither went on to NCAA tournament greatness once freed of the Wojo/Markus shackles -- and one pretty much stunk 90% of his season at Michigan State -- tells me that they might have been a big part of the toxic "culture."
« Last Edit: July 11, 2021, 04:36:25 PM by MU82 »
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Scoop Snoop

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #980 on: July 11, 2021, 04:51:04 PM »
Would we be better off in terms of W/L if Garcia and Carton were still at Marquette for this coming season? Sure. Shaka would have 2 proven shooters. Would they buy into Shaka's culture and wholesale makeover of the team? I think not. This business of stating that any critique of Garcia's and Carton's tenure is de facto trashing them is nonsense. I certainly was not "relieved" that they left but I can also see the advantage of a clean slate. They were our leading scorers, very talented players and, I believe, had pretty much a green light from Wojo. He's gone and so are they. I'll miss them but not Wojo.

We need an identity, defense, a wholesale makeover. The Dukie's star system simply did not work. We never became Duke North except possibly this past season when they did not make the tourney either. Just look at the past 7 seasons. For 80% of one we looked really good. Other than that... 

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CountryRoads

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #981 on: July 11, 2021, 05:30:55 PM »
Random thought but if we had kept Garcia and Carton and both had major success and the team was very successful, there likely would have been a sizable crowd saying “we fired wojo one year too soon.”

Best to pull the plug and start over like they are doing.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #982 on: July 11, 2021, 05:47:18 PM »
Random thought but if we had kept Garcia and Carton and both had major success and the team was very successful, there likely would have been a sizable crowd saying “we fired wojo one year too soon.”

Best to pull the plug and start over like they are doing.

Sure,  if by sizeable crowd you mean Chicos and his alter egos.

Everyone else would have correctly credited Shaka for getting more out of the returnees than Wojo ever did
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Lennys Tap

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #983 on: July 11, 2021, 09:33:34 PM »
If you don't think we'd have had a pretty darn good year with the guys Shaka brought in playing alongside Garcia and Carton, Tony, it doesn't show much faith in Shaka's coaching ability. I guess I give him far more credit than you do.



Garcia + Carton + 3 seniors now headed for Duke, Syracuse and Oakland produced the 5th worst Marquette team in the last 55 years. A long, long, long way from pretty darn good. Unless you think Wojo really was the worst coach in the history of basketball and Shaka is a miracle worker why would you think Garcia, Carton + the youngest team in the league would be so good?


MU82

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #984 on: July 11, 2021, 09:45:16 PM »
Garcia + Carton + 3 seniors now headed for Duke, Syracuse and Oakland produced the 5th worst Marquette team in the last 55 years. A long, long, long way from pretty darn good. Unless you think Wojo really was the worst coach in the history of basketball and Shaka is a miracle worker why would you think Garcia, Carton + the youngest team in the league would be so good?

You keep bringing up three other guys. Who is mentioning them except for you, Tony?

I'm giving Shaka credit for recruiting players who are better than Theo, Cain and Symir. I'm also giving Shaka credit for being able to get the best out of Garcia and Carton, who almost surely would have improved significantly regardless of coach but who could have really blossomed under Shaka.

You and a few others here seem to think that a freshman who led the Big East in scoring and rebounding couldn't improve under Shaka,  and that Shaka couldn't have motivated a dynamic, talented, athletic point guard. It doesn't take a tremendous leap of imagination to think both would have been first-team All-Big East with superior coaches and teammates.

Youngest team in the league? I thought the days of excuses on behalf of the Marquette head coach were over?

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Pakuni

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #985 on: July 11, 2021, 11:09:08 PM »
Garcia + Carton + 3 seniors now headed for Duke, Syracuse and Oakland produced the 5th worst Marquette team in the last 55 years. A long, long, long way from pretty darn good. Unless you think Wojo really was the worst coach in the history of basketball and Shaka is a miracle worker why would you think Garcia, Carton + the youngest team in the league would be so good?

Are you seriously trying to argue that MU wouldn't be better off had Dawson stayed? Because that would be utter nonsense. UNC, Illinois, Arizona and others went all out for the kid ... but in Lenny's world, Marquette is better off without him?

If that's not what you're getting at, than what's your point? Is it simply a refusal to admit that Shaka was unsuccessful at keeping him at MU? Have you gone full Badger fan to "We didn't want him anyway" silliness?

Uncle Rico

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #986 on: July 12, 2021, 07:17:46 AM »
Are you seriously trying to argue that MU wouldn't be better off had Dawson stayed? Because that would be utter nonsense. UNC, Illinois, Arizona and others went all out for the kid ... but in Lenny's world, Marquette is better off without him?

If that's not what you're getting at, than what's your point? Is it simply a refusal to admit that Shaka was unsuccessful at keeping him at MU? Have you gone full Badger fan to "We didn't want him anyway" silliness?

It’s as simple as he was recruited by Wojo, so he’s not worth keeping.  Recruiting talent was never the issue.   Coaching it was. 

As for the idea he wasn’t “grinding” with the team while he pursued his NBA dream somehow makes him a bad teammate is also laughable.  I’m going to go out on a limb and guess Shaka and his staff were well aware of him likely not returning. 

It’s also laughable he wouldn’t have been a valuable piece on a Marquette team for the upcoming season. 
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #987 on: July 12, 2021, 07:25:38 AM »
Are you seriously trying to argue that MU wouldn't be better off had Dawson stayed? Because that would be utter nonsense. UNC, Illinois, Arizona and others went all out for the kid ... but in Lenny's world, Marquette is better off without him?

I don't think he is saying that at all.  I think he means that while they would indeed be *better* with Garcia and Carton, they wouldn't be good enough to make a significant difference on the outcome of the season - and would likely be gone after next season anyway.


If that's not what you're getting at, than what's your point? Is it simply a refusal to admit that Shaka was unsuccessful at keeping him at MU? Have you gone full Badger fan to "We didn't want him anyway" silliness?

I think his point is that its better to go through the rough patches with a new coach and a young team, and they will be better for it two or three seasons down the road.

Honestly, I get what he is saying, but I also think in this day and age, with transfers getting a free year, that "building for the future" isn't what it used to be.
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Pakuni

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #988 on: July 12, 2021, 07:41:14 AM »
I don't think he is saying that at all.  I think he means that while they would indeed be *better* with Garcia and Carton, they wouldn't be good enough to make a significant difference on the outcome of the season - and would likely be gone after next season anyway.


I think his point is that its better to go through the rough patches with a new coach and a young team, and they will be better for it two or three seasons down the road.

Honestly, I get what he is saying, but I also think in this day and age, with transfers getting a free year, that "building for the future" isn't what it used to be.

Well, that's just as woefully misguided then.
Finishing 10th in the BE this season without Garcia (and/or Carton) vs 6th-8th with one or both is a significant difference. I get that the ultimate goal is something more than hoping to be a bubble team and NIT as a fallback, but suggesting that there's no difference between that and no postseason at all is dumb.
More importantly, being bad this year has no impact on how good the team will be three seasons down the road. This isn't the  NBA. There's no benefit in tanking. Marquette isn't getting a higher pick in next year's draft by battling it out with DePaul for last place.

Being sh*tty hurts the program ... in recruiting, in attracting quality transfers, in attendance, in buzz, in NIL opportunities for players, etc. Bringing back Dawson (and/or DJ) would have greatly reduced the chances of being sh*tty.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #989 on: July 12, 2021, 07:52:41 AM »
I think the only thought is that it gives more playing time for players who will have a larger impact two or three years down the line.  But again, that always looks better on paper than it does reality IMO. 
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MU82

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #990 on: July 12, 2021, 08:02:15 AM »
Well, that's just as woefully misguided then.
Finishing 10th in the BE this season without Garcia (and/or Carton) vs 6th-8th with one or both is a significant difference. I get that the ultimate goal is something more than hoping to be a bubble team and NIT as a fallback, but suggesting that there's no difference between that and no postseason at all is dumb.
More importantly, being bad this year has no impact on how good the team will be three seasons down the road. This isn't the  NBA. There's no benefit in tanking. Marquette isn't getting a higher pick in next year's draft by battling it out with DePaul for last place.

Being sh*tty hurts the program ... in recruiting, in attracting quality transfers, in attendance, in buzz, in NIL opportunities for players, etc. Bringing back Dawson (and/or DJ) would have greatly reduced the chances of being sh*tty.

This, totally this.

Especially you saying, correctly, that being bad this season will have absolutely no benefit for future seasons. None!

Speaking only for myself, I don't blame Shaka for not retaining Garcia and Carton (and in fact do give considerable blame to Wojo for losing The Lettermen). I just get a kick out of the mental gymnastics necessary to casually dismiss two talented players. It's both interesting and amusing that guys who claim to think Shaka is the very best coach we could have hired apparently don't think he would have been a good enough coach to work successfully with Garcia and Carton. I give Shaka a lot more credit than that.

I guess it's time to hope Lewis leaves MU to play in Europe now. Because ... you know ... Wojo.
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Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #991 on: July 12, 2021, 08:16:14 AM »
I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.

This is just me but I'd like to see what guys as talented as Carton and Garcia could have done in a new system and culture.  Sure, a positive of them leaving is more opportunities and in-game development for guys who might be with the program longer.  Ideally, both could have happened.  If I had the choice I would have liked to see both of them back because I believe both could have taken big leaps this season.

They chose other options and that's fine.  I just think the benefit of them staying outweighs whatever opportunities them leaving creates. 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 08:21:15 AM by Vander Blue Man Group »

Pakuni

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #992 on: July 12, 2021, 08:39:43 AM »
This, totally this.

Especially you saying, correctly, that being bad this season will have absolutely no benefit for future seasons. None!

Speaking only for myself, I don't blame Shaka for not retaining Garcia and Carton (and in fact do give considerable blame to Wojo for losing The Lettermen). I just get a kick out of the mental gymnastics necessary to casually dismiss two talented players. It's both interesting and amusing that guys who claim to think Shaka is the very best coach we could have hired apparently don't think he would have been a good enough coach to work successfully with Garcia and Carton. I give Shaka a lot more credit than that.

I guess it's time to hope Lewis leaves MU to play in Europe now. Because ... you know ... Wojo.

Right. I don't blame Shaka for Carton leaving. And while I don't give him a pass on Garcia, it sure seems like it was an uphill battle to keep him.
My issue is with those trying to rationalize their departures as insignificant or, even worse, actually good for the program. That's ludicrous. Unlike professional sports rebuilds, losing is never good in college.
Did anyone suggest losing Sam Hauser was a good thing for Marquette because it meant more minutes from Brendan Bailey and Jamal Cain?

StillAWarrior

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #993 on: July 12, 2021, 08:45:53 AM »
Sure, a positive of them leaving is more opportunities and in-game development for guys who might be with the program longer.

Agreed. Kind of how a positive of getting your car stolen is that you spend less on gas. Awesome...sign me up!
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Scoop Snoop

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #994 on: July 12, 2021, 09:06:15 AM »
I think the only thought is that it gives more playing time for players who will have a larger impact two or three years down the line.  But again, that always looks better on paper than it does reality IMO.

This is close to what I have been thinking in terms of how Shaka, or for that matter any coach, is going to build a team for success "two or three years down the road". The combo of immediate transfer availability and NIL are a one-two punch to planning for future development. Shaka will figure out what he needs to do but it will not be the kind of rebuild that fans are accustomed to seeing in the past. It will be a hybrid with the two new factors creating new challenges and opportunities.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #995 on: July 12, 2021, 09:22:52 AM »
Right. I don't blame Shaka for Carton leaving. And while I don't give him a pass on Garcia, it sure seems like it was an uphill battle to keep him.
My issue is with those trying to rationalize their departures as insignificant or, even worse, actually good for the program. That's ludicrous. Unlike professional sports rebuilds, losing is never good in college.
Did anyone suggest losing Sam Hauser was a good thing for Marquette because it meant more minutes from Brendan Bailey and Jamal Cain?

Wojo was able to "retain" Duane, Deonte, Magic, Teve, JJJ, Todd, Luke, Derrick, Juan, and Sandy. Of those, four soon transferred anyway. Duane and Luke already had burned a red shirt year so they were restricted on movement, and Derrick and Juan were seniors so why transfer?

Of those Buzz recruits, maybe only JJJ fit Wojo's system. Two of those players went on to the NBA. Yet, Marquette had its first losing season since 1988-89.

Shaka has his players in and they have been practicing together for weeks. Frankly, Garcia's abilities and athleticism are not a perfect fit for Shaka's system. Dawson found a program which does and one that will him better achieve his NBA dream, just like Burton did.

Frankly, the cupboard left Shaka is much barer than the one left Wojo. However, Shaka wisely got his guys in, and won't be wasting a few years with uneven roster composition like Wojo did. Having NBA talent on the roster is no assurance of a winning record if mismatched to the system, as we learned in the past.

Justin Lewis, your table is ready.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #996 on: July 12, 2021, 09:26:23 AM »
And I agree with Blackheart as well.

Having Dawson and Carton gone most definitely hurts the team, BUT only if Dawson and Carton were committed to what Shaka was doing.  If they weren't, then its better that they did leave. 
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GOO

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #997 on: July 12, 2021, 09:34:30 AM »
A few thoughts:

1.  Teams are going to be built year to year more than ever.  Easier transfers, NIL offers to move on, etc.  Teams will be building year to year more than before.

2.  The idea of building a team three years down the road, balancing classes, etc, is a fan/muscoop thing.  It never works out.  Put it to bed. This has been the case for a long time, unless you were UW or a mid-major.   That being said, Shaka's ability to get players to buy in and not transfer will be a key for MU.  Can we be the type of team where players decide Shaka is best for them and we retain more guys than most teams?  I hope so.   Maybe less volatility, but we will still experience plenty of volatility just like most teams.

3.  Not having Carton and Garcia is a blow. Saying anything else doesn't make a lot of sense.  Having an NCAA type of team with a couple of star players versus developmental type of players, the choice is easy.  Winning builds programs and gets players to come, etc, as mentioned above.  Even more so with NIL as mentioned above. Could the team be better than expected, have great team chemistry, players exceed past performance, etc.  Sure.  But the odds are a lot less likely without two superior players. And yes, they are superior players.  i don't buy the idea that other players don't develop with the one year stars here.  They can develop, practice, fill in, and grow without being tossed into the fire. Players that are not ready who have to play, that can go either way.

4.   Wojo retained players when he came in, at least for the short term.  But the transfer rules were different, the players he was retaining were not highly sought out by other teams (in my opinion).  Here, immediate playing ability, higher regarded players, etc. Heck, one guy goes to Duke.  Yes, Carton going pro is somewhat of a head scratcher, but his original plan was one year and out, so that may make it more understandable.  Not sure what goes on behind the scenes.  So, there is no nock on Shaka not retaining guys.  It was also a very long year for everyone. 


The Lens

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #998 on: July 12, 2021, 09:45:58 AM »
I’m not being the least bit inconsistent. The star system that Wojo brought to MU created a culture that I thought was unhealthy. The Hausers saw the culture as toxic too so I agreed with their analysis and lamented their departure. Garcia and Carton were here BECAUSE of that culture. Losing them in what would likely be a down year anyway isn’t a big deal to me - I’m looking at this longer term.

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The Lens

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #999 on: July 12, 2021, 09:50:51 AM »
Wojo was able to "retain" Duane, Deonte, Magic, Teve, JJJ, Todd, Luke, Derrick, Juan, and Sandy. Of those, four soon transferred anyway. Duane and Luke already had burned a red shirt year so they were restricted on movement, and Derrick and Juan were seniors so why transfer?

Of those Buzz recruits, maybe only JJJ fit Wojo's system. Two of those players went on to the NBA. Yet, Marquette had its first losing season since 1988-89.

Shaka has his players in and they have been practicing together for weeks. Frankly, Garcia's abilities and athleticism are not a perfect fit for Shaka's system. Dawson found a program which does and one that will him better achieve his NBA dream, just like Burton did.

Frankly, the cupboard left Shaka is much barer than the one left Wojo. However, Shaka wisely got his guys in, and won't be wasting a few years with uneven roster composition like Wojo did. Having NBA talent on the roster is no assurance of a winning record if mismatched to the system, as we learned in the past.

Justin Lewis, your table is ready.

Also this. 
The Teal Train has left the station and Lens is day drinking in the bar car.    ---- Dr. Blackheart

History is so valuable if you have the humility to learn from it.    ---- Shaka Smart