What's the word on Garcia?

[PGsHeroes32]

It's been well-documented that Vander thought putting MU on his back and bringing them to an Elite 8 was his best chance at getting drafted and a shot at the NBA. He was doing what's right for him. Hindsight says he may be wrong. But looking at the following years team, he probably made the right choice.

That following years team would have been much, much better if Vander were here.

That doesnt mean he made the wrong choice. But the results of that team without Vander, does not also mean he made the right one.

[TheREALwrk]

That following years team would have been much, much better if Vander were here.

That doesnt mean he made the wrong choice. But the results of that team without Vander, does not also mean he made the right one.

Agree - but looking at that roster, I don't think they were getting back to the Elite 8. And Vander had made up his mind that his NCAA run was enough to get an NBA look.

[JWags85]

Going to class is the only difference with regard to training at a high major school (I know there are limits due to NCAA rules with coaches present but athletes can use all their free time in the gym if they want). Both ways allow you to prepare against future pros.  Most starters at a high Major schools could have a pro basketball career in some shape or form after college.

Classes, study halls, tutor sessions, meals, etc...  There is tons of time that is allocated to "non-BB" activities.  And thats not even counting the fact that basketball isnt the sole focus mentally.

You're also not prepping with professional trainers, shooting coaches, etc...  who are tailored specifically to you.  High D1 basketball programs are exceptional in many regards, make no mistake, but there is still a difference between that and the highly focused and individualized workouts that pros do beyond just their standard practice.

And playing against high major starters is just a small portion of their season.  Jayce Johnson, Chartouney, and Jake Thomas all played professional basketball.  Playing and training against them is very different than other fringe NBA guys.

[PGsHeroes32]

Agree - but looking at that roster, I don't think they were getting back to the Elite 8. And Vander had made up his mind that his NCAA run was enough to get an NBA look.

Yeah thats fair. The elite 8 we actually had quite the fine line as it is ha. Coulda been 1 and done.

I do think that team pretty easily makes the tourney with Vander though. So would at least give us a shot.

[Dr. Blackheart]

It's been well-documented that Vander thought putting MU on his back and bringing them to an Elite 8 was his best chance at getting drafted and a shot at the NBA. He was doing what's right for him. Hindsight says he may be wrong. But looking at the following years team, he probably made the right choice.

Add in the fact that Larry Williams added in "academic progression" requirements (aka, known colloquially as the so called "Crowder Rules"). Vander struggled the previous summer to qualify on progression. Jamail didn't even make the summer cut and TJ Taylor never even cleared MU as he was bounced out in mid-July the summer before. To add support post-Vander's decision, at mid-terms, Todd had to sit until the 2nd semester due to academics and Jameel McKay transferred after Buzz wanted him to redshirt to catch-up academically in a Marquette Madness verbal dust-up (with Otule's 6th year as Buzz's back-up plan already in place).

Vander was done with school at the point of his decision, especially when when right before this Larry objected to Jae and DJO leaving class to participate in the Portsmouth NBA invitational. Jae just dropped out of school, attended and won MVP, while DJO finished school and didn't attend. Vander saw all this and made his choice as he was afraid his senior year value would have been diminished by having to sit out like eventually happened to Mayo.

(Note: I am not trying to relitigate this here as we have beaten this dead horse--and there are pros with that academic shift. But I bring this up to put the entire fact-set into context to Vander's overall decision...and to add a further lens to that preseason "over-ranked" team story that was in actuality missing many planned key pieces--maybe two-three starters and 2-3 key bench players lost over a year.)

[Herman Cain]

Add in the fact that Larry Williams added in "academic progression" requirements (aka, known colloquially as the so called "Crowder Rules"). Vander struggled the previous summer to qualify on progression. Jamail didn't even make the summer cut and TJ Taylor never even cleared MU as he was bounced out in mid-July the summer before. To add support post-Vander's decision, at mid-terms, Todd had to sit until the 2nd semester due to academics and Jameel McKay transferred after Buzz wanted him to redshirt to catch-up academically in a Marquette Madness verbal dust-up (with Otule's 6th year as Buzz's back-up plan already in place).

Vander was done with school at the point of his decision, especially when when right before this Larry objected to Jae and DJO leaving class to participate in the Portsmouth NBA invitational. Jae just dropped out of school, attended and won MVP, while DJO finished school and didn't attend. Vander saw all this and made his choice as he was afraid his senior year value would have been diminished by having to sit out like eventually happened to Mayo.

(Note: I am not trying to relitigate this here as we have beaten this dead horse--and there are pros with that academic shift. But I bring this up to put the entire fact-set into context to Vander's overall decision...and to add a further lens to that preseason "over-ranked" team story that was in actuality missing many planned key pieces--maybe two-three starters and 2-3 key bench players lost over a year.)

Thanks for posting this. These facts shed a lot of lite on what happened toward the end of Buzz tenure , it really explains a lot of things. 

[The Sultan]

Hold on...  The reason McKay left is because they asked him to redshirt???

[Galway Eagle]

Hold on...  The reason McKay left is because they asked him to redshirt???

Different than the usually explained playing out of position reason but seems to make a bit more sense given that we had Otule and Gardner already for the 5 and Jamil and Gardner at the 4.

[The Sultan]

Different than the usually explained playing out of position reason but seems to make a bit more sense given that we had Otule and Gardner already for the 5 and Jamil and Gardner at the 4.

Yeah, it makes A LOT more sense.  Hell, I would have done the same exact thing (transfer). 

So the whole TJ Taylor thing wasn't about missing his girlfriend either?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Hold on...  The reason McKay left is because they asked him to redshirt???

Can't they be related? Note the timing (mid-terms). McKay transferred and sat out a year anyway. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

So the whole TJ Taylor thing wasn't about missing his girlfriend either?

So you still believe Patrick Hazel left for playing time too?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Yeah, it makes A LOT more sense.  Hell, I would have done the same exact thing (transfer). 

So the whole TJ Taylor thing wasn't about missing his girlfriend either?

But he had to sit longer by transferring vs. redshirting (1.5 years at Iowa St. vs. 1 year here), and he lost half a year of eligibility as a result (only played 1.5 seasons vs. 2 he would have played here)

[The Sultan]

So you still believe Patrick Hazel left for playing time too?

LOL, no.  I am no doubting you.

[The Sultan]

But he had to sit longer by transferring vs. redshirting (1.5 years at Iowa St. vs. 1 year here), and he lost half a year of eligibility as a result (only played 1.5 seasons vs. 2 he would have played here)

He didn't lose a half a year.  He lost eligibility for nine games played during the first semester.

And yeah, I would be pissed that I committed to Marquette in June 2012, worked to be eligible, and then in Fall 2013 was asked to redshirt just before the season began.  (For academic reasons.)

If I'm going to sit somewhere, I'm going to sit at a place that didn't screw me over.

[The Lens]

Did Larry Williams not understand the job?  It's fine (and expected) to have people from Marquette / Ohara Hall (or now Zilber) pushing the academic agenda but your AD needs to be a mediator.  Figure out a way for Jae Crowder to leave happy, etc.

[Silkk the Shaka]

He didn't lose a half a year.  He lost eligibility for nine games played during the first semester.

And yeah, I would be pissed that I committed to Marquette in June 2012, worked to be eligible, and then in Fall 2013 was asked to redshirt just before the season began.  (For academic reasons.)

If I'm going to sit somewhere, I'm going to sit at a place that didn't screw me over.

Fair. I also hate Larry Williams so I'm not going to begrudge anyone a spite-transfer away from him. I just would have killed to see that team with Vander & McKay under Buzz so I'm obviously biased!

[Gato78]

So how did Jamil McKay obtain 30 transferable credits in one semester of JUCO--which he did--in order to be eligible? Come on, this gorilla has been in the room for a long time, yet, it is never considered to have anything to do with his transfer. I have no inside info but his eligibility always seemed a bit shaky to me.

[panda]

College basketball doesn't improve known commodities draft stock. Maximize your earnings potential and leave early if you have professional aspirations.

The only people who disagree are the disingenuous fans of those players who selfishly want them to return so their team is good.

[willie warrior]

Fair. I also hate Larry Williams so I'm not going to begrudge anyone a spite-transfer away from him. I just would have killed to see that team with Vander & McKay under Buzz so I'm obviously biased!

Larry Williams: Tainted with No Dick stink all over him.

[The Sultan]

Larry Williams: Tainted with No Dick stink all over him.

Bob Scholl went to Notre Dame as well so....

[The Lens]

Larry Williams: Tainted with No Dick stink all over him.

Such an immature take.  Homer and Bill Scholl both have deep Notre Dame roots and they are incredible assets to our program. 

Larry William's inability to see the value in a student athlete training for and attending pre draft camps tells me he'd fail at ND just as he failed here.

[lawdog77]

College basketball doesn't improve known commodities draft stock. Maximize your earnings potential and leave early if you have professional aspirations.

The only people who disagree are the disingenuous fans of those players who selfishly want them to return so their team is good.

Obi Toppin is on line 1.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Such an immature take.  Homer and Bill Scholl both have deep Notre Dame roots and they are incredible assets to our program. 

Larry William's inability to see the value in a student athlete training for and attending pre draft camps tells me he'd fail at ND just as he failed here.

It failed at Akron too. They just replaced Larry with the UW-GB AD.

Larry was brought in to fix the football program which was and is still bleeding money. His head coach hire has gone 1-17.

[jficke13]

College basketball doesn't improve known commodities draft stock. Maximize your earnings potential and leave early if you have professional aspirations.

The only people who disagree are the disingenuous fans of those players who selfishly want them to return so their team is good.

You know there are these things called shades of gray.

[panda]

Obi Toppin is on line 1.

Known commodities being the operative phrase in my statement. How many mock drafts was he on after his freshman year?