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MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: CreightonWarrior on November 21, 2019, 11:09:59 AM

Title: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on November 21, 2019, 11:09:59 AM
Yasmani Grandal to the White Sox on a 4 year deal.

Massive hit to the Brewers.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 21, 2019, 11:37:21 AM
I'm glad the Sox didn't eff around this winter like they did last year. Yes, Grandal is expensive, but they have been sitting on piles and piles and piles of cash for years. They targeted Grandal early, and this year they were aggressive and not passive. If nothing else, I'm much happier than last offseason.

I've heard they've been enamored with Castellanos for months, I think I mentioned that here previously.

They won't break the bank for Cole, I'm sure the same applies to Strasburg, but I expect them to make some move for a pitcher (anything more than 3 years for Wheeler scares me).

Overall, good move today.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ChuckyChip on November 21, 2019, 12:12:09 PM
Massive hit to the Brewers.

It was widely expected that the Brewers were not going to resign Grandal, so not really a "massive hit."  Four year deal only really makes sense in the AL where he can DH.  Brewers will use the money saved elsewhere.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jficke13 on November 21, 2019, 12:28:50 PM
I enjoyed Yas on the Brewers last year. It's probably unreasonable to expect anything other than a sharp dropoff in offensive production at the 2. Hopefully they can find a diamond in the rough that plays good defense and is replacement level at the plate.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on November 21, 2019, 12:36:41 PM
Grandal's best chance for a 4-year deal was probably in the AL< where he can DH most (all?) of years 3 and 4.

The Sox could use a LH bat.  Seems like a nice pick-up.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on November 21, 2019, 01:32:19 PM
It was widely expected that the Brewers were not going to resign Grandal, so not really a "massive hit."  Four year deal only really makes sense in the AL where he can DH.  Brewers will use the money saved elsewhere.

The massive hit is a 5 WAR player in a position that averages below 2.5 WAR.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on November 21, 2019, 01:45:21 PM
Good for the Sox.  There's no way the Crew could give him 4 years.  Anyone expecting Yaz to be anything more than a rental for the Crew was setting themselves up for disappointment.  They have young catchers in the minors.  Time for them to step up.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 21, 2019, 02:44:10 PM
I'm glad the Sox didn't eff around this winter like they did last year. Yes, Grandal is expensive, but they have been sitting on piles and piles and piles of cash for years. They targeted Grandal early, and this year they were aggressive and not passive. If nothing else, I'm much happier than last offseason.

I've heard they've been enamored with Castellanos for months, I think I mentioned that here previously.

They won't break the bank for Cole, I'm sure the same applies to Strasburg, but I expect them to make some move for a pitcher (anything more than 3 years for Wheeler scares me).

Overall, good move today.

Grandal, Castellanos (or maybe Kole Calhoun if they think they need another left handed bat) and 2 starters (Wheeler, Keuchel?) was my off season wish list. How about you (and other Sox fans - Pakuni, Buck, etc.)?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 21, 2019, 02:44:55 PM
Nice start for ther ChiSox, but should only be the start. Need to go get frontline starter (I'll continue to pound the table for Dallas Keuchel), a DH and a right fielder. Adding Grandal makes a guy like Calhoun or Castellanos acceptable in right, though I'd like to see them swing for the fences first and see if they can get Betts without giving up Madrigal or Vaughn in return (or Robert and Kopech, obviously).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 21, 2019, 02:55:46 PM
Nice start for ther ChiSox, but should only be the start. Need to go get frontline starter (I'll continue to pound the table for Dallas Keuchel), a DH and a right fielder. Adding Grandal makes a guy like Calhoun or Castellanos acceptable in right, though I'd like to see them swing for the fences first and see if they can get Betts without giving up Madrigal or Vaughn in return (or Robert and Kopech, obviously).

I hate Calhoun, if they sign him, that'll be a big miss in my opinion.

I keep trying to piece a Betts trade together, and it's tough. One year of Betts obviously worries me, flip side is the price is lower without the long term commitment. I don't know if a Dane Dunning/Vaughn/something else package is good enough? Honestly asking, have no idea for a Betts rental.

In terms of their preference, outside Betts, I think your Sox starting RF next year is from Castellanos, Puig, Haniger.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 21, 2019, 03:04:28 PM
I hate Calhoun, if they sign him, that'll be a big miss in my opinion.

I keep trying to piece a Betts trade together, and it's tough. One year of Betts obviously worries me, flip side is the price is lower without the long term commitment. I don't know if a Dane Dunning/Vaughn/something else package is good enough? Honestly asking, have no idea for a Betts rental.

In terms of their preference, outside Betts, I think your Sox starting RF next year is from Castellanos, Puig, Haniger.

Agree the Puig is a real possibility, but I'd hate that more than Calhoun. I get that Calhoun has his flaws (starting with spelling Cole with a 'K'), but the one thing I like about his is that he's an above average right fielder, which would be a big help given the guy in the other corner. Puig/Castellanos in right and Eloy in left makes for a bad defensive outfield.

Haniger? Hmm. He was not good last year. Maybe at a bargain, but I wouldn't give up any potentially useful pieces for him.
Because of Boston's salary crunch and Betts impending free agency, I think he could be had on the cheap (relatively speaking), but that may just be wishful thinking on my part.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 21, 2019, 03:26:48 PM
Agree the Puig is a real possibility, but I'd hate that more than Calhoun. I get that Calhoun has his flaws (starting with spelling Cole with a 'K'), but the one thing I like about his is that he's an above average right fielder, which would be a big help given the guy in the other corner. Puig/Castellanos in right and Eloy in left makes for a bad defensive outfield.

Haniger? Hmm. He was not good last year. Maybe at a bargain, but I wouldn't give up any potentially useful pieces for him.
Because of Boston's salary crunch and Betts impending free agency, I think he could be had on the cheap (relatively speaking), but that may just be wishful thinking on my part.

I’ve heard for a while they like Haniger, and I think they may try to buy low on him. Ideally, they’d like to address pitching first and then sign a RF. I’m not advocating Puig, I could see them doing that move though, feels very Sox like.

I have the same concerns, they defensively may be a mess next season, especially in the outfield.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ChuckyChip on November 21, 2019, 03:37:55 PM
The massive hit is a 5 WAR player in a position that averages below 2.5 WAR.

I guess my point was that no one expected the Brewers to resign Grandal, so the "massive hit" was already in the works the minute they signed him last year..no surprise.  Yes, he will be tough to replace, but he was never coming back.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 21, 2019, 03:38:55 PM
I'm glad the Sox didn't eff around this winter like they did last year. Yes, Grandal is expensive, but they have been sitting on piles and piles and piles of cash for years. They targeted Grandal early, and this year they were aggressive and not passive. If nothing else, I'm much happier than last offseason.

I've heard they've been enamored with Castellanos for months, I think I mentioned that here previously.

They won't break the bank for Cole, I'm sure the same applies to Strasburg, but I expect them to make some move for a pitcher (anything more than 3 years for Wheeler scares me).

Overall, good move today.

Whats your username on Soxtalk, Dish?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on November 21, 2019, 04:13:54 PM
I hate Calhoun, if they sign him, that'll be a big miss in my opinion.

I keep trying to piece a Betts trade together, and it's tough. One year of Betts obviously worries me, flip side is the price is lower without the long term commitment. I don't know if a Dane Dunning/Vaughn/something else package is good enough? Honestly asking, have no idea for a Betts rental.

In terms of their preference, outside Betts, I think your Sox starting RF next year is from Castellanos, Puig, Haniger.

Kole is a very streaky hitter with some pop, but last few years avg suffered.  Plus arm and defender....makes some defensive gems that are under appreciated
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on November 21, 2019, 04:26:26 PM
Kole is a very streaky hitter with some pop, but last few years avg suffered.  Plus arm and defender....makes some defensive gems that are under appreciated

AKA the same things that are happening to just about every hitter in baseball.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on November 21, 2019, 05:02:56 PM
I guess my point was that no one expected the Brewers to resign Grandal, so the "massive hit" was already in the works the minute they signed him last year..no surprise.  Yes, he will be tough to replace, but he was never coming back.

Fair, agree
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on November 21, 2019, 05:17:52 PM
Nice start for ther ChiSox, but should only be the start. Need to go get frontline starter (I'll continue to pound the table for Dallas Keuchel), a DH and a right fielder. Adding Grandal makes a guy like Calhoun or Castellanos acceptable in right, though I'd like to see them swing for the fences first and see if they can get Betts without giving up Madrigal or Vaughn in return (or Robert and Kopech, obviously).


Would you rather the Sox spend on TWO of the 2nd tier starters like Wheeler, Keuchel instead of just one + a DH and OF?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 21, 2019, 05:23:32 PM
I’ve heard for a while they like Haniger, and I think they may try to buy low on him. Ideally, they’d like to address pitching first and then sign a RF. I’m not advocating Puig, I could see them doing that move though, feels very Sox like.

I have the same concerns, they defensively may be a mess next season, especially in the outfield.

Betts is a dream but I don't think we're at the point where we trade real prospects for a one year rental.

My concern with Haniger is that he was playing poorly last year even before he was hurt. Loved the guy pre 2019, though. Maybe buying low works.

Castellanos has a good bat and is getting better (though still below average) in the field.

Puig intrigues me. Still has untapped potential - big bat, big arm - but obviously comes with baggage.

Calhoun is the best fielder (other than Betts) and he's a lefty which brings balance.

Some mention Ozuna but the last time I saw him he couldn't throw a ball from medium deep left field to second base.

Corey Dickerson is also a left handed bat I kind of like. Missed most of last year with an injury but crushed the ball when he came back late in the year. Don't know if he plays any D.

Pitching? Cole and Strasburg are probably out of our price range. Ryu has been injured an awful lot. Wheeler (5 at 20m per?) may also be a stretch. Keuchel probably is the biggest bargain in tier 1 or 2.

DH? Sox usually spread DH at bats around and get very little. Edwin Encarnacion on a 1 year contract?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 21, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I think the Grandal signing is a great one, while he isn't a perfect player, he is a very good one, and dang near a perfect fit for what the Sox needed.  A switch hitter (thought the LHH part is important to the Sox), high OBP , good power player.  The fact that he can catch is icing on the cake.  I would guess he gets a lot of ABs at C, DH and 1B.  Add in that he is another Cuban?  Couldn't be a better fit.  He has also been training with Zack Collins since they were teenagers, which is kind of cool, but I think this may be the writing on the wall for Collins. 

As others have mentioned, this isn't enough though.  They need pitching.  I would feel really good about 2 SPs, though one will do.  Sounds like Wheeler is a high priority (though he seems to be for many teams).  I don't think there is any way the Sox play for Cole or Strasburg.  Wheeler is next on the list in terms of stuff, but is risky, and has a tough injury history.  Definitely would be an impact signing though.   Seems like he could get expensive too.  I agree with you Pakuni, on Keuchel, I think he fits pretty well and would be a solid addition to the rotation.

RF is certainly problematic.  I don't think that Betts makes any sense at all.  It wouldn't be worth trading any of the top guys for a year of him, especially since you're still paying 28 mil for him.  And beyond the elite talents, the depth guys in the Sox system were either injured or underwhelming last season.  I can't see how it works at all.  Haniger had a bad year last year, but I still don't see the Mariners selling low on him, which leads to the same problem.  For all the high level talent in the Sox system (Robert, Madrigal, Vaughn, Kopech, Cease) they aren't trading any of those guys, and their "B" level guys probably don't hold much value to other teams. 

I think Calhoun is the answer. (Dish, I'm curious as to why you hate him?)  He is a decent hitter, with ok discipline, and ok power and plays ok defense.  Hits from the left side. They don't necessarily need a star in RF.  They need a guy that can hold his own and not be a black hole.  Calhoun, and maybe Cheeks can confirm, but in my memory is super streaky, and when he's on, he can carry you.  For the Sox, they are looking for a guy to hit, what 6th or 7th?  It doesn't need to be a star.  A 20 HR, 30 2B guy with a .325 OBP would certainly do the trick.  I think, if it isn't Calhoun, it is probably Leury.  I don't know what other realistic options are.  I don't like Castellanos, because while he can certainly hit, I'd like someone that is a bit more of a defender, and I think he will be overpaid.  Same with Ozuna.  Maybe there is someone else available in trade, Polanco or Marte perhaps would be there, but I just don't see a ton of value in Sox prospects that are trade-able right now.  Guys like Adolfo, Rutherford, Dunning, Hansen, Burdi and Basabe all hurt their trade value last season. 

** Disclaimer on RF*** I know there are a couple of pretty high level players coming out of Japan this year that were posted that are RF type players.  I don't really know enough to say anything about them though, other than I am aware that they are out there.  Does anyone know if NPB has an MLB At Bat style App?  That's totally something I could get into. 

Honestly, I think their lineup is ok right now.   I am more concerned about the pitching.  So to answer Jockey's question, I would much rather sign Wheeler and Keuchel than add a RF and DH.  I think you could pass with rotating Abreu, Grandal, McCann, and Collins (Mercedes etc) through 1B, C and DH (at least leading up to the trade deadline).  I also think you could get by with Leury in RF.  Obviously some of this depends on Robert and Madrigal coming up and contributing, which as rookies, isn't a sure thing (though as a Sox fan and baseball fan, I am drooling waiting for Luis Robert.  Eloy was a monster in the minors, and Robert out did him pretty handily.  The kid slugged over .600 on the season.  Seems like a crazy amount of talent.).

I don't expect them to sign a big name to DH, as again, I think a lot of those ABs will go to Grandal and Abreu, and there aren't any huge DH names out there.  EE perhaps, but I'm not sure he is a great fit. 

All in all, great start to the off season for the Sox.  Rick and Kenny still have work to do, don't stop now boys.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 21, 2019, 06:01:23 PM
I completely forgot about Puig.  Haha.  I kind of like it.  Just build that Cuban National team!  Can we trade for Cespedes as well?  -- Wait, is he still a thing?

Now that i joked about it, watch the Sox trade for Cespedes.

Ok another modification, just googled him, he's taking swings!  I'm officially all in on Cespedes, provided you trade nothing for him and the Mets pay for like 25 of his contract.  A 5 Cubano lineup??????  Do it for Minnie! 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 21, 2019, 07:20:12 PM
I completely forgot about Puig.  Haha.  I kind of like it.  Just build that Cuban National team!  Can we trade for Cespedes as well?  -- Wait, is he still a thing?

Now that i joked about it, watch the Sox trade for Cespedes.

Ok another modification, just googled him, he's taking swings!  I'm officially all in on Cespedes, provided you trade nothing for him and the Mets pay for like 25 of his contract.  A 5 Cubano lineup??????  Do it for Minnie!

Minnie was my favorite player as a kid growing up.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 21, 2019, 07:29:23 PM
By the way, I love the Reds getting Jose De Leon for basically nothing.  Could be a nice arm for them.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on November 21, 2019, 07:47:09 PM
Fair, agree

Fan favorite here in Orange County, but Red was just too expensive for his output.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 21, 2019, 07:52:10 PM

Would you rather the Sox spend on TWO of the 2nd tier starters like Wheeler, Keuchel instead of just one + a DH and OF?

I think they need one second-tier guy, and then perhaps bring back Ivan Nova to push Lopez for the 5th spot. I say that expecting Kopech to come back healthy and Cease to improve upon last year, both of which seem reasonable. So that means Gio-Keuchel-Kopech-Cease as the top four with Looez, Nova and eventually Rodon rounding things out.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 21, 2019, 08:01:30 PM
I think they need one second-tier guy, and then perhaps bring back Ivan Nova to push Lopez for the 5th spot. I say that expecting Kopech to come back healthy and Cease to improve upon last year, both of which seem reasonable. So that means Gio-Keuchel-Kopech-Cease as the top four with Looez, Nova and eventually Rodon rounding things out.

I think Rodon maybe best suited for the bullpen.  His stuff is unquestionable, but he just can't throw the innings.  Maybe being a reliever would work better for him.  I certainly wouldn't count on him in the rotation at all.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 21, 2019, 08:14:33 PM
I'm happy to see some positive Sox talk on here, I know Sox fans are the minority here and in Chicago, so I for one enjoy talking about some good Sox news for once. I talked to Sox people a lot in September, and the name I kept hearing was Castellanos, and that they made some inquiries with the Tigers in July about him.

I don't think Calhoun sucks or anything, he certainly benefited last year like everyone else from the ball being juiced. I think at 32, he has the least amount of upside. He's just meh to me.

The guy I'm still enamored with is Adolfo. I stood next to him/Robert/Jimenez last year at SoxFest, and Adolfo is a giant, the guy is a monster physically. He's had terrible injury history, but if he can stay healthy, I think he can mash.

Buck is right though, the Sox farm system is heavy at the top, without much in the middle. Guys like Beard and Dahlquist might be those middle guys by the end of next season. I'd obviously would love Betts, but it might make more sense for them to use whatever assets they have to go after Jon Gray in the trade market.

A trade with the Red Sox I could see happening...Eovaldi, Benintendi, Cash to Chicago for Reynaldo Lopez/minor league pitcher back to Boston. White Sox love Benintendi, and they'd figure out an outfield mix.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 21, 2019, 09:02:38 PM
I'm happy to see some positive Sox talk on here, I know Sox fans are the minority here and in Chicago, so I for one enjoy talking about some good Sox news for once. I talked to Sox people a lot in September, and the name I kept hearing was Castellanos, and that they made some inquiries with the Tigers in July about him.

I don't think Calhoun sucks or anything, he certainly benefited last year like everyone else from the ball being juiced. I think at 32, he has the least amount of upside. He's just meh to me.

The guy I'm still enamored with is Adolfo. I stood next to him/Robert/Jimenez last year at SoxFest, and Adolfo is a giant, the guy is a monster physically. He's had terrible injury history, but if he can stay healthy, I think he can mash.

Buck is right though, the Sox farm system is heavy at the top, without much in the middle. Guys like Beard and Dahlquist might be those middle guys by the end of next season. I'd obviously would love Betts, but it might make more sense for them to use whatever assets they have to go after Jon Gray in the trade market.

A trade with the Red Sox I could see happening...Eovaldi, Benintendi, Cash to Chicago for Reynaldo Lopez/minor league pitcher back to Boston. White Sox love Benintendi, and they'd figure out an outfield mix.

I think this is why someone like Calhoun makes a lot of sense.  The Sox still have quite a few intriguing options for OFers in the system, even if they have lost their luster a little bit.  Adolfo leads the way, but Rutherford, Walker, Gonzalez and Basabe could all fill RF in the not too distant future.  Signing a guy that isn't a great fit (Castellanos/Ozuna) that could clog the position for a few years isn't ideal to me.  I'd think Calhoun would be available on a 1 year deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 21, 2019, 09:21:00 PM
I think Rodon maybe best suited for the bullpen.  His stuff is unquestionable, but he just can't throw the innings.  Maybe being a reliever would work better for him.  I certainly wouldn't count on him in the rotation at all.

I know I'm likely being overly optimistic with Rodon, but I do think they give him another chance as a starter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on November 21, 2019, 10:05:09 PM
I think they need one second-tier guy, and then perhaps bring back Ivan Nova to push Lopez for the 5th spot. I say that expecting Kopech to come back healthy and Cease to improve upon last year, both of which seem reasonable. So that means Gio-Keuchel-Kopech-Cease as the top four with Looez, Nova and eventually Rodon rounding things out.

I see the same dangers as I saw last winter with the Brewers who were gonna have Woodruff, Peralta, and Burnes in the rotation. They got one out of three.

Counting on all three of Gio, Kopech, and Cease is a dangerous proposition. Gio is probably as good a candidate for regression as anybody, and while I think Kopech and Cease will eventually be solid mid-rotation guys or better, counting on them next year could be a problem. That was why I suggested two of the second tier guys - Wheeler & Keuchel or possibly even Ryu on an incentive heavy contract. They can afford it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on November 21, 2019, 10:07:54 PM

A trade with the Red Sox I could see happening...Eovaldi, Benintendi, Cash to Chicago for Reynaldo Lopez/minor league pitcher back to Boston. White Sox love Benintendi, and they'd figure out an outfield mix.


I think you are way overrating Lopez.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 21, 2019, 10:47:23 PM

I think you are way overrating Lopez.

The price to get Benintendi isn’t Lopez, it’s taking on Eovaldi’s contract. Boston is going to have to dump a good player with either Eovaldi or Price.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 21, 2019, 11:01:07 PM
The price to get Benintendi isn’t Lopez, it’s taking on Eovaldi’s contract. Boston is going to have to dump a good player with either Eovaldi or Price.

Eovaldi became a complete albatross in 3 months.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 21, 2019, 11:08:26 PM
I see the same dangers as I saw last winter with the Brewers who were gonna have Woodruff, Peralta, and Burnes in the rotation. They got one out of three.

Counting on all three of Gio, Kopech, and Cease is a dangerous proposition. Gio is probably as good a candidate for regression as anybody, and while I think Kopech and Cease will eventually be solid mid-rotation guys or better, counting on them next year could be a problem. That was why I suggested two of the second tier guys - Wheeler & Keuchel or possibly even Ryu on an incentive heavy contract. They can afford it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "counting on" in regards to Kopech and Cease, but barring injury or disaster, both will be in the rotation next year.  As much as they say they're ready to compete in 2020, the team is not going  to stall either of those guys' development by sending them back to AAA.
As for Gio, I'm not worried about significant regression from him. He changed so much about his game from 2018 to 2019, that I don't think regression analysis really applies. A similar performance to 2019 would not be terribly surprising.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on November 22, 2019, 10:16:12 AM
Two whole pages of Sox discussions!  Way to go boys.  I sincerely hope they have a damn solid year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 22, 2019, 10:59:40 AM
Staying on topic... White Sox sign Jose Abreu for 3 years/$50 million.
Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be a big fan of that third year, but in Jose's case it's just reward.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 22, 2019, 11:08:00 AM
Staying on topic... White Sox sign Jose Abreu for 3 years/$50 million.
Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be a big fan of that third year, but in Jose's case it's just reward.

This extension makes zero sense. Why not at most give him 2 years? Andrew Vaughn isn’t playing anywhere but first. I like Abreu, but hate this deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on November 22, 2019, 11:28:36 AM
Staying on topic... White Sox sign Jose Abreu for 3 years/$50 million.
Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be a big fan of that third year, but in Jose's case it's just reward.

Totally - Reinsdorf envisions the third year being Abreu's Ryan Zimmerman victory lap while the Sox play for the pennant.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 22, 2019, 11:29:38 AM
This extension makes zero sense. Why not at most give him 2 years? Andrew Vaughn isn’t playing anywhere but first. I like Abreu, but hate this deal.

None of that is wrong, and with that said, this is very predictable. 

Someone commented in the other thread (probably one of the locked ones???) about loyalty in sports in regards to a Pujols post, Jerry Reisndorf is the loyalty in sports. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 22, 2019, 12:36:27 PM
This extension makes zero sense. Why not at most give him 2 years? Andrew Vaughn isn’t playing anywhere but first. I like Abreu, but hate this deal.

It's fine.
It's a huge leap of faith to assume Andrew Vaughn is the starting first baseman for what ought to be a contending team in 2021, given that he has yet to take a swing above A ball. A Madrigal/Robert-like ascension through the system is hardly assured.
And when Vaughn is ready - and he ought to be by 2022, for sure - Abreu is your DH.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on November 22, 2019, 12:54:43 PM
This extension makes zero sense. Why not at most give him 2 years? Andrew Vaughn isn’t playing anywhere but first. I like Abreu, but hate this deal.

Especially in the context of signing Grandal who will log time at 1B and DH.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 22, 2019, 12:55:56 PM
It's fine.
It's a huge leap of faith to assume Andrew Vaughn is the starting first baseman for what ought to be a contending team in 2021, given that he has yet to take a swing above A ball. A Madrigal/Robert-like ascension through the system is hardly assured.
And when Vaughn is ready - and he ought to be by 2022, for sure - Abreu is your DH.

Who are the Sox bidding against to pay Abreu in his mid 30’s, $18 mil in 2022? If they wanted to go two years, club option, I can semi see that. But this is foolish money to throw around for what will be a declining 1B/DH. There’s zero chance in the open market Abreu is getting that future cash.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on November 22, 2019, 01:01:43 PM
The Sox are clearly a better team with Abreu in the lineup this year.  And barring a catastrophic collapse, next year as well. 

The third year is debatable, but I fully see that as a loyalty/mentor bonus for a very well respected and productive member of the team.  This will impact Vaughn/Collins, but in 3 years.  They still haven't earned the right to be considered for playing time yet.  I'm completely fine with it.  A bit of an overpay perhaps, but 4 million is deferred as well.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 22, 2019, 02:23:02 PM
Who are the Sox bidding against to pay Abreu in his mid 30’s, $18 mil in 2022? If they wanted to go two years, club option, I can semi see that. But this is foolish money to throw around for what will be a declining 1B/DH. There’s zero chance in the open market Abreu is getting that future cash.

So can we now say your issue is with 2022 and not the entire deal?
As I already said, I don't necessarily love the third year either, but I understand them wanting to reward Jose's loyalty to the franchise, willingness to play mentor through a few lean years and the fact he's been woefully underpaid throughout his tenure with the team.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 22, 2019, 04:32:29 PM
So can we now say your issue is with 2022 and not the entire deal?
As I already said, I don't necessarily love the third year either, but I understand them wanting to reward Jose's loyalty to the franchise, willingness to play mentor through a few lean years and the fact he's been woefully underpaid throughout his tenure with the team.

Yeah, I guess that's fair to say.

I like Jose, he's fantastic in the community, and it'd be well deserved to see him be in a playoff game for the Sox.

My issue is for a team that has a hard internal spending limit, when 2022 comes around and they should be contending, the $18 mil in 2022 seems rough. I'd have thought if they wanted Abreu for three years, front load the contract. I don't want to be on this board in July 2022 with the Sox half game up on the Indians, and they can't go out and trade for a middle reliever because they're not going to spend any more cash, when they could have had Abreu back for $9-$11 million in 2022, instead of $18 million.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2019, 05:16:07 PM
So can we now say your issue is with 2022 and not the entire deal?
As I already said, I don't necessarily love the third year either, but I understand them wanting to reward Jose's loyalty to the franchise, willingness to play mentor through a few lean years and the fact he's been woefully underpaid throughout his tenure with the team.

I'm totally OK with an overpay to Jose but I don't want to hear "We can't afford X or Y because we paid Jose".
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on November 22, 2019, 05:53:31 PM
I'm totally OK with an overpay to Jose but I don't want to hear "We can't afford X or Y because we paid Jose".

Lenny, did you grow up in Chicago? Just wondering why you’re a White Sox fan.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUEng92 on November 22, 2019, 10:53:29 PM
Two whole pages of Sox discussions!  Way to go boys.  I sincerely hope they have a damn solid year.
Crazy isn't it.  Who knew 45% of all White Dox fans posted on MU Scoop Superbar.  😬
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on November 23, 2019, 05:19:25 AM
I have mixed emotions about Grandal. A greater catcher makes a huge difference on a pitching staff and can be the difference between a good and great team. Peoples Exhibit 1 would people like Yadi Molina down in St. Louis.

By the same token, the Sox just spent a lot of money on a 31-year-old catcher. Sabermetrics tells us 32-years of age is the break point in value between a good and mediocre value to a baseball team. And unlike the NFL, these are real contracts!

Yeah, all you who know me as a Cardinal fan will note that the Cardinals have spent a lot of money on an over-the-hill Molina. Not only do I agree but I would note the Cardinals have a very good catcher at AAA for whom Molina's contract will create problems. I suspect in the White Sox case, there's probably not much at Birmingham!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2019, 10:18:05 AM
Lenny, did you grow up in Chicago? Just wondering why you’re a White Sox fan.

I actually grew up in the northern suburbs (Palatine, then Northbrook). But my Dad (who had grown up in northwest Indiana) was a Sox fan - so Comiskey Park under the lights became my field of dreams.

Friends would ask how a kid from the northside became a Sox fan. I'd tell them that my Dad had a "situation" that precluded him from taking my brothers and me to Wrigley Field (where they played only day games) - a job.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on November 23, 2019, 12:23:12 PM
I'm happy to see some positive Sox talk on here, I know Sox fans are the minority here and in Chicago, so I for one enjoy talking about some good Sox news for once
There hasn't been this much positive Sox talk since they "won" the 2015 off-season by signing Melky Cabrera.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2019, 11:10:30 PM
There hasn't been this much positive Sox talk since they "won" the 2015 off-season by signing Melky Cabrera.

Very snarky. Must be a Cub fan.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on November 27, 2019, 10:02:17 AM
Brewers trading Trent Grisham to Padres, return unknown right now.

So much for moving Braun to 1B so this increases the likelihood of Travis Shaw playing more, which I'm not crazy about.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on November 27, 2019, 10:17:50 AM
Brewers trading Trent Grisham to Padres, return unknown right now.

So much for moving Braun to 1B so this increases the likelihood of Travis Shaw playing more, which I'm not crazy about.

Luis Urias. So if he’s ready to contribute at the MLB level maybe Shaw won’t play. And who knows if Moose is back.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 27, 2019, 10:21:12 AM
Full trade:

Shortstop Luis Urías and LHP Eric Lauer to Milwaukee, OF Trent Grisham and RHP Zach Davies to San Diego.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on November 27, 2019, 10:22:56 AM
Luis Uriah’s. So if he’s ready to contribute at the MLB level maybe Shaw won’t play. And who knows if Moose is back.

Credit for Stearns knowing he can't roll out the exactly same lineup next year, and rolling the dice on a high ceiling prospect with lots of control. And a decent back of the rotation prospect in the lefty Lauer. Fair value given up, imo. Davies should do well in SD.

Betting that Arcia is non tendered. No idea about Shaw, but if I had to guess they're going to gamble on him one more year. Would still bet on Moose eventually being back and Shaw spending time at 1B.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on November 27, 2019, 11:09:47 AM
Credit for Stearns knowing he can't roll out the exactly same lineup next year, and rolling the dice on a high ceiling prospect with lots of control. And a decent back of the rotation prospect in the lefty Lauer. Fair value given up, imo. Davies should do well in SD.

I generally like the deal. Urias batted very well in AAA, but that was the PCL so everything there is taken with a grain of salt. The pitcher swap is my favorite part. Stearns capitalized really nicely on flipping Davies when his value is at its highest and got an extra three years of team control over what I think will prove to be a comparable pitcher.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on November 27, 2019, 11:15:36 AM
Credit for Stearns knowing he can't roll out the exactly same lineup next year, and rolling the dice on a high ceiling prospect with lots of control. And a decent back of the rotation prospect in the lefty Lauer. Fair value given up, imo. Davies should do well in SD.

Betting that Arcia is non tendered. No idea about Shaw, but if I had to guess they're going to gamble on him one more year. Would still bet on Moose eventually being back and Shaw spending time at 1B.

Agree.  I bet that's the plan.  Don't count out a Thames return.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on November 27, 2019, 12:14:32 PM
Jesús Aguilar DFA’d today.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BrewCity83 on November 27, 2019, 12:19:45 PM
I bet they tender Arcia and give him one more shot to fight it out with Urias for the starting SS job.  If Arcia prevails Urias can play 3rd and Shaw can hit the road if he doesn't bounce back.  I still think Arcia has trade value even if they give up on him. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on November 27, 2019, 12:26:53 PM
I bet they tender Arcia and give him one more shot to fight it out with Urias for the starting SS job.  If Arcia prevails Urias can play 3rd and Shaw can hit the road if he doesn't bounce back.  I still think Arcia has trade value even if they give up on him.

The Padres tried Urias at shortstop last year when Tatis got hurt. It went very poorly. You don't want him at short.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on November 27, 2019, 12:48:34 PM
The Padres tried Urias at shortstop last year when Tatis got hurt. It went very poorly. You don't want him at short.

We'll see. I expect Urias to be the starter at SS on opening day. Obviously, he won't be the defender that Arcia was, but his offense will be light years ahead. I think his pop will surprise people, maybe a 15-18 HR for a guy who was .400 OBP in the minors.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BrewCity83 on November 27, 2019, 01:37:48 PM
How about Urias at 3rd Base?  I know he never played there last year at SD because they had an expensive Machado inked in there.  If Moose prices himself out of the Brewers' range and Shaw dowsn't bounce back, we may have just picked up our 3rd Baseman for years to come.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on November 27, 2019, 01:40:19 PM
We'll see. I expect Urias to be the starter at SS on opening day. Obviously, he won't be the defender that Arcia was, but his offense will be light years ahead. I think his pop will surprise people, maybe a 15-18 HR for a guy who was .400 OBP in the minors.

FWIW, MLBTR said "Indications are that the club will utilize Urias at shortstop."  I have no idea what those indications are, just wanted to note it.

I had assumed that going offense-for-defense at short was more palatable with Hiura taking over 2B, but then I looked at Moose and Hiura's defensive numbers at 2nd - it seems crazy to me but Moose actually graded out ahead of Hiura in their limited samples. Then again, #defensenomatta, so maybe two below average defenders up the middle is just a price Stearns is willing to pay. Moose and Shaw would provide + defense at the corners, so maybe that's a consideration too if they're both next year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on November 27, 2019, 09:21:40 PM
FWIW, MLBTR said "Indications are that the club will utilize Urias at shortstop."  I have no idea what those indications are, just wanted to note it.

I had assumed that going offense-for-defense at short was more palatable with Hiura taking over 2B, but then I looked at Moose and Hiura's defensive numbers at 2nd - it seems crazy to me but Moose actually graded out ahead of Hiura in their limited samples. Then again, #defensenomatta, so maybe two below average defenders up the middle is just a price Stearns is willing to pay. Moose and Shaw would provide + defense at the corners, so maybe that's a consideration too if they're both next year.

Direct quote from Stearns  :)

Saw the Brewers are non-tendering Junior Guerra. That one is rough give he wasnt projected to make much for a key middle reliever...
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jficke13 on December 02, 2019, 11:04:20 AM
Rosenthal says Brewers would listen to offers for Hader. I wonder what the asking price would be... gotta be sky high for team control through 2021 on a dominant lefty reliever.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 02, 2019, 02:44:42 PM
Moustakas to the Reds. (Cincinnati, not Russia).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 02, 2019, 02:50:11 PM
Moustakas to the Reds. (Cincinnati, not Russia).

Brewers infield is in a world of trouble.  Don't really have a catcher, don't have a first baseman, Travis Shaw has to play every day, and you're relying on a rookie to play shortstop and also be one of your better hitters?  Yikes.

Oh and the pitching staff is a mess.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 02, 2019, 02:51:19 PM
Brewers infield is in a world of trouble.  Don't really have a catcher, don't have a first baseman, Travis Shaw has to play every day, and you're relying on a rookie to play shortstop and also be one of your better hitters?  Yikes.

Rumors are the Mets are interested in Hader in return for infielders.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 02, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
Moustakas to the Reds. (Cincinnati, not Russia).

4 years is too many for Moose, IMHO. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 02, 2019, 03:05:03 PM
Rumors are the Mets are interested in Hader in return for infielders.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

So you fill the infield with trade assets from the Mets (or other team) and then you spend money on one or two starters, two or three bullpen arms, and a catcher?

There are a lot of holes to fill for the Brewers, and they should have some money to spend given they didn't resign Moose or Grandal, let Thames walk (though hopefully they're on the phone with him like yesterday), and traded Chase.

And I don't even think the Brewers should've given the money and years to Moose or Grandal that the Reds/Sox did.  But it leaves some big holes in the lineup.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on December 02, 2019, 03:20:12 PM
4 years is too many for Moose, IMHO.
Especially at $16mm per year

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 02, 2019, 03:41:44 PM
White Sox sign McCann for 1 year/$5.4 million.
Nice deal for the Sox, but it'll be interesting to see if this means they want to try Zack Collins at 1B/DH.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2019, 03:49:06 PM
White Sox sign McCann for 1 year/$5.4 million.
Nice deal for the Sox, but it'll be interesting to see if this means they want to try Zack Collins at 1B/DH.

I think he plays quite a bit against RHP - some C, some 1B, more DH. Or possibly he's included in a trade.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on December 02, 2019, 04:02:33 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens.

So you fill the infield with trade assets from the Mets (or other team) and then you spend money on one or two starters, two or three bullpen arms, and a catcher?

There are a lot of holes to fill for the Brewers, and they should have some money to spend given they didn't resign Moose or Grandal, let Thames walk (though hopefully they're on the phone with him like yesterday), and traded Chase.

And I don't even think the Brewers should've given the money and years to Moose or Grandal that the Reds/Sox did.  But it leaves some big holes in the lineup.

I'm on board with this. I'm glad Stearns didn't hit the panic button and hand out any bad deals, but in Grandal and Moose, Brewers lost two of their best three bats not named Yelich from an offense that already only finished 15th in runs scored last year.  Right now both corners are a black box, and there isn't much there for notable FAs.  Any moves are very unlikley to come close to replacing the lost production at C, so the pressure is really on to find some offense.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 02, 2019, 05:49:11 PM
4 years is too many for Moose, IMHO.

especially for an NL team.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 02, 2019, 05:52:24 PM
Maybe the Brewers' answer is Addison Russell...

Patrick Mooney @PJ_Mooney
The Cubs have cut ties with Addison Russell and will not offer him a contract for next season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ChuckyChip on December 02, 2019, 06:44:44 PM
especially for an NL team.

Part of the thinking may be that the NL will have the DH in the near future.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 02, 2019, 07:21:24 PM
Brewers didn’t tender Shaw or Nelson
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on December 02, 2019, 07:50:00 PM
So many holes to fill next year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 02, 2019, 08:16:26 PM
Maybe the Brewers' answer is Addison Russell...

Patrick Mooney @PJ_Mooney
The Cubs have cut ties with Addison Russell and will not offer him a contract for next season.

Ban dis guy^^^
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 02, 2019, 09:46:56 PM
Maybe the Brewers' answer is Addison Russell...

Patrick Mooney @PJ_Mooney
The Cubs have cut ties with Addison Russell and will not offer him a contract for next season.

Charlie Culberson, Jose Peraza, Cesar Hernandez, CJ Cron, and Maikel Franco are all new options, with a catching tandem of Kevan Smith and Josh Phelgley. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 02, 2019, 10:21:38 PM
Brewers infield is in a world of trouble.  Don't really have a catcher, don't have a first baseman, Travis Shaw has to play every day, and you're relying on a rookie to play shortstop and also be one of your better hitters?  Yikes.

Oh and the pitching staff is a mess.

Otherwise, Mrs. Counsell, how did you like the play?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 02, 2019, 10:42:11 PM
Maybe the Brewers chose Braun, Suter and Woodruff to model the new unis because they're the only returning players
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 08:11:00 AM
So many holes to fill next year.


Kind of.

My guess is that the Braun move to 1B will be made permanent.  The infield would be Hiura, Urias and Arcia.  And now maybe they can be a player for a guy like Ozuna.  Trade Hader to the Mets for an infielder, and things are looking decent.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 03, 2019, 08:57:55 AM

Kind of.

My guess is that the Braun move to 1B will be made permanent.  The infield would be Hiura, Urias and Arcia.  And now maybe they can be a player for a guy like Ozuna.  Trade Hader to the Mets for an infielder, and things are looking decent.

Except the bullpen got them to the playoffs 2 years ago and was a huge factor last year. With a bad rotation, the bullpen has to be very good to great to get to the playoffs. Trading the one great reliever on the team does not make a bullpen better.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 09:22:07 AM
Except the bullpen got them to the playoffs 2 years ago and was a huge factor last year. With a bad rotation, the bullpen has to be very good to great to get to the playoffs. Trading the one great reliever on the team does not make a bullpen better.

I think they see Knebel in the closing role.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 10:40:59 AM
BTW, I am a fan of the idea of selling high on Hader.  I don't think closers like him last long, and if they can get some talent to fill the holes on the roster, trading him makes perfect sense to me. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 03, 2019, 10:43:45 AM

Kind of.

My guess is that the Braun move to 1B will be made permanent.  The infield would be Hiura, Urias and Arcia.  And now maybe they can be a player for a guy like Ozuna.  Trade Hader to the Mets for an infielder, and things are looking decent.

I think they have quite a bit of work to do.  Milwaukee fans don't deserve a slash in payroll; I really hope that's not where Mark A. is heading.

2020 Opening Day (In no particular order)

LF Gamel ???
CF Cain
RF Yelich
3B Urias
SS Arcia
2B Hiura
1B Braun ???
C Pina
SP Woodruff ???
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 10:45:37 AM
I think they have quite a bit of work to do.  Milwaukee fans don't deserve a slash in payroll; I really hope that's not where Mark A. is heading.

2020 Opening Day (In no particular order)

LF Gamel ???
CF Cain
RF Yelich
3B Urias
SS Arcia
2B Hiura
1B Braun ???
C Pina
SP Woodruff ???


I am confident that they aren't slashing payroll.  They've had a plan the last couple of years.  It's only early December.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 03, 2019, 11:16:08 AM

I am confident that they aren't slashing payroll.  They've had a plan the last couple of years.  It's only early December.
I don't always trust Bob Nightengale, but he does have a check mark next to Twitter account.


Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
The Milwaukee #Brewers, who are planning to cut payroll, led all #MLB with five non-tenders, followed by the #SFGiants and #Royals.
7:31 PM · Dec 2, 2019·Twitter Web App
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 03, 2019, 11:36:23 AM
Maebee dale bee a playa for Cole, hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 03, 2019, 12:51:48 PM
I think they see Knebel in the closing role.

Maybe be ready by the middle of the year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 03, 2019, 12:53:45 PM
BTW, I am a fan of the idea of selling high on Hader.  I don't think closers like him last long, and if they can get some talent to fill the holes on the roster, trading him makes perfect sense to me.


FBM, I'm not disagreeing totally with you. Moving Hader would be OK IF you are getting at value back at positions where it is needed and then put dollars into several FA relievers.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on December 03, 2019, 01:16:54 PM
Jeff Passan, through sources, has said the brewers are also open to trading Cain.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 03, 2019, 01:23:03 PM
A Mets/Brewers trade of Hader going to NY makes too much sense based on Van Wagenen being the Mets GM, and their need. Question is for Brewer fans, what price coming back makes sense? McNeil, J.D Davis, and an arm from their top 15 - top 30 prospects?

Also, I think Cole Hamels is on the White Sox by the end of the week on a one year deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 02:18:36 PM
Presuming he's healthy, I would take Edwin Diaz back in a trade.  He might just need a change of scenery to rebound from his awful year last year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 03, 2019, 02:36:06 PM
Also, I think Cole Hamels is on the White Sox by the end of the week on a one year deal.

Just in time.  Just like the Sox signings of:
Jose Canseco
Bo Jackson
Robert Alomar
Carl Everett
Andruw Jones
Manny Ramirez
Griffey, Jr
Bartolo Colon
David Wells
Omar Visquel
Kevin Youklis
Jimmy Rollins

I swear I would not be surprised if Kenny signed Chone Figgins next week just because he passed up the Sox in '04.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on December 03, 2019, 02:40:57 PM
BTW, I am a fan of the idea of selling high on Hader.  I don't think closers like him last long, and if they can get some talent to fill the holes on the roster, trading him makes perfect sense to me.
Agree, max effort guys with heavy usage seem to get injured or fall off a cliff out of nowhere.  He may have 5 more great years or none.  Impossible to know for sure.  That is a guy to gamble on trading if you can get a good return.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 03, 2019, 03:07:02 PM
Just in time.  Just like the Sox signings of:
Jose Canseco
Bo Jackson
Robert Alomar
Carl Everett
Andruw Jones
Manny Ramirez
Griffey, Jr
Bartolo Colon
David Wells
Omar Visquel
Kevin Youklis
Jimmy Rollins

I swear I would not be surprised if Kenny signed Chone Figgins next week just because he passed up the Sox in '04.

I get what you're saying, and that washed up player coming to the Sox mentality certainly did (does) exist. Hamels has made it known he loves Chicago and wants to stay here. His podcast with Garfien is basically him lobbying to sign with the Sox. They need a veteran guy to eat innings, if it's not going to be Keuchel or Baumgarner, Hamels makes some logical sense. He's not late 20's Cole Hamels, but I can see their thinking with him as their fifth starter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 03, 2019, 03:41:36 PM

FBM, I'm not disagreeing totally with you. Moving Hader would be OK IF you are getting at value back at positions where it is needed and then put dollars into several FA relievers.

Seems like it'd be easier to keep your bird in hand and just sign position players.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 03:44:37 PM
Seems like it'd be easier to keep your bird in hand and just sign position players.


Not if other people think your bird in hand has more value than you do.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2019, 04:55:01 PM
I get what you're saying, and that washed up player coming to the Sox mentality certainly did (does) exist. Hamels has made it known he loves Chicago and wants to stay here. His podcast with Garfien is basically him lobbying to sign with the Sox. They need a veteran guy to eat innings, if it's not going to be Keuchel or Baumgarner, Hamels makes some logical sense. He's not late 20's Cole Hamels, but I can see their thinking with him as their fifth starter.

He was good enough to post the 3rd highest WAR (3.0) on that vaunted Cub staff last year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 03, 2019, 05:52:05 PM
I get what you're saying, and that washed up player coming to the Sox mentality certainly did (does) exist. Hamels has made it known he loves Chicago and wants to stay here. His podcast with Garfien is basically him lobbying to sign with the Sox. They need a veteran guy to eat innings, if it's not going to be Keuchel or Baumgarner, Hamels makes some logical sense. He's not late 20's Cole Hamels, but I can see their thinking with him as their fifth starter.

Don't hate it, but prefer a longer-term deal with Keuchel.
Sox seem infatuated with Wheeler, though. That I don't entirely understand, but hope by skepticism is proven wrong (if they land him).

As always with Nightengale, take it with a grain of salt, but he's reporting that in addition to negotiating with Wheeler, the Sox again are trying to make a deal for Joc Pederson.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 03, 2019, 05:52:33 PM
I'd be very disappointed if Hamels was the Sox big pitching acquisition.

He's very clearly better than what they've been running out, but it would feel like a pretty blah headline move.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2019, 07:11:03 PM
I'd be very disappointed if Hamels was the Sox big pitching acquisition.

He's very clearly better than what they've been running out, but it would feel like a pretty blah headline move.

I hope he's not the "big" pitching acquisition, but I'd be OK if he's the #2 one. Like Pakuni, I'm a little scared of Wheeler especially at 5 years/north of 100 million. The Sox are at best a long shot, but Cole at 8/250 actually seems like the best deal of the "big 3".
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2019, 07:18:26 PM
Don't hate it, but prefer a longer-term deal with Keuchel.
Sox seem infatuated with Wheeler, though. That I don't entirely understand, but hope by skepticism is proven wrong (if they land him).

As always with Nightengale, take it with a grain of salt, but he's reporting that in addition to negotiating with Wheeler, the Sox again are trying to make a deal for Joc Pederson.

Dodgers have a ton of outfielders, wouldn't mind Joc in RF.

Keuchel at 3/45 would be reasonable.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 03, 2019, 08:36:39 PM
Don't hate it, but prefer a longer-term deal with Keuchel.
Sox seem infatuated with Wheeler, though. That I don't entirely understand, but hope by skepticism is proven wrong (if they land him).

As always with Nightengale, take it with a grain of salt, but he's reporting that in addition to negotiating with Wheeler, the Sox again are trying to make a deal for Joc Pederson.

I feel like the Pederson to the Sox rumor comes up every 6 months (not by you, but by some national writer).

Wheeler at 5 years/$100 mil or more is no bueno. I’d rather explore the trade market than go there.

Completely unrelated, I’d like to see the Sox take a flyer on Aaron Sanchez.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2019, 09:16:54 PM
I feel like the Pederson to the Sox rumor comes up every 6 months (not by you, but by some national writer).

Wheeler at 5 years/$100 mil or more is no bueno. I’d rather explore the trade market than go there.

Completely unrelated, I’d like to see the Sox take a flyer on Aaron Sanchez.

If the Astros don't tender Sanchez I'd be on board but he's more for '21 and beyond. Don't know if he pitches at all in '20.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 03, 2019, 09:50:18 PM
If the Astros don't tender Sanchez I'd be on board but he's more for '21 and beyond. Don't know if he pitches at all in '20.

He was non-tendered.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 03, 2019, 10:08:08 PM
I feel like the Pederson to the Sox rumor comes up every 6 months (not by you, but by some national writer).

Wheeler at 5 years/$100 mil or more is no bueno. I’d rather explore the trade market than go there.

Completely unrelated, I’d like to see the Sox take a flyer on Aaron Sanchez.

I had heard it was at the "done deal" level last year when it got leaked, and Joc had some appearance that evening and the leak caused an uproar, and caused the Dodgers to sink the deal.  He makes a lot of sense for the Sox.  Though so does anyone in RF with a pulse.  Souza?

I'm also in on Sanchez.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 03, 2019, 10:13:13 PM
I hope he's not the "big" pitching acquisition, but I'd be OK if he's the #2 one. Like Pakuni, I'm a little scared of Wheeler especially at 5 years/north of 100 million. The Sox are at best a long shot, but Cole at 8/250 actually seems like the best deal of the "big 3".

In a perfect world, Strasburg is the guy I'd want.  Though I see no way that Cole or Stras are anything close to realistic.  You may as well wish for a time machine and peak Pedro Martinez to walk through the door. 

Wheeler is a risk, but may be realistic.  He could play up to a good number 2 pitcher with Giolito.  Sure seems like he is going to be overpaid, but he fits the Sox better than the other guys. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on December 03, 2019, 10:15:23 PM
I predict bad off-season acquisitions for everyone.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 03, 2019, 10:20:38 PM
I predict bad off-season acquisitions for everyone.

Seems about right.  Contracts that are instantly untrade-able.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2019, 10:49:35 PM
I predict bad off-season acquisitions for everyone.

I predict this will be the best off season prediction in this thread.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on December 04, 2019, 12:08:06 AM
Jeff Passan, through sources, has said the brewers are also open to trading Cain.

Of course they are but who’s going to want the rest of that deal?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 04, 2019, 08:49:18 AM
He was good enough to post the 3rd highest WAR (3.0) on that vaunted Cub staff last year.
Fangraphs has him at 5th, behind every other member of the Opening Day rotation.
Henricks 4.1
Quintana 3.5
Lester 2.8
Darvish 2.6
Hamels 2.5
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=6&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=17&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0 (https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=6&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=17&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 04, 2019, 11:32:58 AM
@Ken_Rosenthal: Source confirms: Cole Hamels in agreement with #Braves on one-year, $18M contract. First reported: @JeffPassan.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 04, 2019, 11:45:50 AM
@Ken_Rosenthal: Source confirms: Cole Hamels in agreement with #Braves on one-year, $18M contract. First reported: @JeffPassan.

Phew.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 04, 2019, 11:46:55 AM
$18 mil for a year of Hamels is a hard pass. But if he's getting $18 mil, the free agent pitching market is going to be rough sledding.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on December 04, 2019, 11:47:34 AM
Alex "no such thing as a bad one year deal" Anthopoulos
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 04, 2019, 12:02:31 PM
@Ken_Rosenthal: Source confirms: Cole Hamels in agreement with #Braves on one-year, $18M contract. First reported: @JeffPassan.
If one WAR is $8M, I guess the money's right.  I guess I'd rather overpay for one year of Hamels vs. being saddled with a longer contract.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 04, 2019, 12:08:35 PM
Great, so now we're all colluding to prove that we weren't colluding during the past offseasons. All very confusing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 04, 2019, 12:11:57 PM
$18 mil for a year of Hamels is a hard pass. But if he's getting $18 mil, the free agent pitching market is going to be rough sledding.

Yup.
On the bright side, likely this means the Braves won't be a player for Keuchel.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 04, 2019, 12:16:28 PM
Sounds like the Braves bailed on Bumgarner after his price tag exceeded 100 Mil.  Don't know if that was where he bidding is, or what his asking is, but if Wheeler is over 100, I can see why Bumgarner feels like he has earned more than Wheeler. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 04, 2019, 12:38:20 PM
Sounds like the Braves bailed on Bumgarner after his price tag exceeded 100 Mil.  Don't know if that was where he bidding is, or what his asking is, but if Wheeler is over 100, I can see why Bumgarner feels like he has earned more than Wheeler.

Hot stove says Wheeler may be down to the ChiSox or Phillies, with the Phils offering more $$$ at this point.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Chili on December 04, 2019, 01:31:48 PM
Hot stove says Wheeler may be down to the ChiSox or Phillies, with the Phils offering more $$$ at this point.


The #Phillies sign Zack Wheeler, per @MarcCarig. He received deal in excess of $100 million.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 04, 2019, 01:32:02 PM
Chili beat me by 30 seconds.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 04, 2019, 01:46:00 PM
$23.6 annual for Wheeler...I'm fine with the Sox not going down that road. That's a lot of cheese right there.

I know they won't do it, but hell, if Hamels is getting $18, Wheeler almost $24, if I'm the Sox, I'm going all in on Cole and/or Strasburg. I know they won't, but if Wheeler is getting $23.6 a year, wouldn't you much rather have Cole or Strasburg at $30/$32 a year based on the talent? I mean if that rate is that high to begin with, just get the best out there.

I'm all for guys getting paid, good for Hamels and Wheeler.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on December 04, 2019, 01:49:39 PM
$23.6 annual for Wheeler...I'm fine with the Sox not going down that road. That's a lot of cheese right there.

I know they won't do it, but hell, if Hamels is getting $18, Wheeler almost $24, if I'm the Sox, I'm going all in on Cole and/or Strasburg. I know they won't, but if Wheeler is getting $23.6 a year, wouldn't you much rather have Cole or Strasburg at $30/$32 a year based on the talent? I mean if that rate is that high to begin with, just get the best out there.

I'm all for guys getting paid, good for Hamels and Wheeler.

Massive overpay for Wheeler in my opinion, both in years and value. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on December 04, 2019, 01:55:37 PM
According to Rosenthal the White Sox actually offered more to Wheeler.  May have dodged a bullet. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 04, 2019, 02:00:51 PM
$23.6 annual for Wheeler...I'm fine with the Sox not going down that road. That's a lot of cheese right there.

I know they won't do it, but hell, if Hamels is getting $18, Wheeler almost $24, if I'm the Sox, I'm going all in on Cole and/or Strasburg. I know they won't, but if Wheeler is getting $23.6 a year, wouldn't you much rather have Cole or Strasburg at $30/$32 a year based on the talent? I mean if that rate is that high to begin with, just get the best out there.

I'm all for guys getting paid, good for Hamels and Wheeler.

Glad Mrs. Wheeler is from Jersey and not Indiana.

#WhiteSox’s offer to Wheeler was for MORE than the $118M he will receive from the #Phillies, sources tell The Athletic. As @MarcCarig said, Wheeler’s wife is from New Jersey, and that proximity was an important consideration in his decision.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 04, 2019, 02:08:51 PM
So, Arrieta signs during Spring Training, Keuchel signs in the middle of the season, and this year everyone will sign before Christmas? 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 04, 2019, 02:16:04 PM
So, Arrieta signs during Spring Training, Keuchel signs in the middle of the season, and this year everyone will sign before Christmas?

All the FAs are colluding against the Brewers for their taking advantage of the collusion by the organizations the last couple off seasons that resulted in some team friendly 1 year deals for them.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 04, 2019, 03:12:43 PM
According to Rosenthal the White Sox actually offered more to Wheeler.  May have dodged a bullet.

No joke there.  He is a good pitcher, but that seems just crazy to me. 

I completely agree with Dish, if you are willing to offer that to Wheeler, just get Strasburg.  I honestly never really got all the love for Wheeler.  Good pitcher, and an asset to any team, but he doesn't seem like an ace to me, and he is already 30, so it isn't like there is a ton of untapped potential. 

** I do think that it is funny that the Sox didn't just sign his brother in law, when this is the case where it would have mattered.  Hahaha.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 04, 2019, 03:45:08 PM
If they were willing to go 5 yrs/$120 mil ($24 annually), which probably sounds about right, why in the hell wouldn't they go 6 yrs/$192 for Cole or Strasburg? I don't know if they had any deferred money in their offer to Wheeler, but if you're willing to go $24 per for a #2 caliber pitcher, why wouldn't you go to $32 per for arguably two of the top five pitchers in the game? The cost difference is a utility infielder. They're obviously no where near the luxury tax.

If Cole/Strasburg want to do what Wheeler did, and go home to play in California, and an extra $2 million a year doesn't matter, that's a whole different story then.

I'm sure this will end up being a cluster eff in the end.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 04, 2019, 03:50:16 PM
If they were willing to go 5 yrs/$120 mil ($24 annually), which probably sounds about right, why in the hell wouldn't they go 6 yrs/$192 for Cole or Strasburg? I don't know if they had any deferred money in their offer to Wheeler, but if you're willing to go $24 per for a #2 caliber pitcher, why wouldn't you go to $32 per for arguably two of the top five pitchers in the game? The cost difference is a utility infielder. They're obviously no where near the luxury tax.

If Cole/Strasburg want to do what Wheeler did, and go home to play in California, and an extra $2 million a year doesn't matter, that's a whole different story then.

I'm sure this will end up being a cluster eff in the end.

I wouldn't be mad, but I understand the hesitancy about giving $30+ million a year to a pitcher, especially one with a history of arm trouble like Strasburg.
I'd be more comfortable giving that money to Cole, though he's arguably due for a regression.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 04, 2019, 04:20:01 PM
I wouldn't be mad, but I understand the hesitancy about giving $30+ million a year to a pitcher, especially one with a history of arm trouble like Strasburg.
I'd be more comfortable giving that money to Cole, though he's arguably due for a regression.

I get it as well, the market is what it is though. The price for pitching isn't going to go down, and if they believe they can contend in the AL Central next year, and want to make a postseason run, the price is high to get a stud pitcher. I completely understand the hesitancy, but that's always going to be a factor. My point is, if you're going to go all in on a pitcher, outside of de Grom, you're next two are probably Cole and Strasburg, and you're not sacrificing talent from your team to get either one of them, just financial commitment.

Would you rather overpay Trevor Bauer, Robbie Ray, or James Paxton next offseason? These two guys are who they should be going all in on right now.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 04, 2019, 08:29:39 PM
I get it as well, the market is what it is though. The price for pitching isn't going to go down, and if they believe they can contend in the AL Central next year, and want to make a postseason run, the price is high to get a stud pitcher. I completely understand the hesitancy, but that's always going to be a factor. My point is, if you're going to go all in on a pitcher, outside of de Grom, you're next two are probably Cole and Strasburg, and you're not sacrificing talent from your team to get either one of them, just financial commitment.

Would you rather overpay Trevor Bauer, Robbie Ray, or James Paxton next offseason? These two guys are who they should be going all in on right now.

I think if you're willing to pay 24 million per for the 30th or 40th best starting pitcher, 35 million per and a few extra years for a top 4 guy is a no brainer. Just my opinion, but a relative bargain. Hope the Sox offer 8/280 for Cole. Doubt it gets it done, but who knows?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on December 05, 2019, 08:21:13 AM
Looks like the Brewers got their new catcher, Omar Narvaez from the Mariners.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 05, 2019, 08:24:30 AM
Not as everyday catcher right?  I’d rather try Pina.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 05, 2019, 08:29:51 AM
Not as everyday catcher right?  I’d rather try Pina.

Navarez is very good at the plate.  Right behind Grandal at the plate.  Not as good behind the plate, though.

Now bring Thames back and add a third baseman and some pitching.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 05, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Navarez is very good at the plate.  Right behind Grandal at the plate.  Not as good behind the plate, though.

Now bring Thames back and add a third baseman and some pitching.

Not as good is putting it mildly. It's worth a shot, but unless either Pina's offense or Navarez's defense just completely bottom out, I think it's more probable we see a platoon.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUfan12 on December 05, 2019, 08:49:31 AM
Given the splits, a platoon with Piña might not be a bad idea.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jficke13 on December 05, 2019, 09:13:49 AM
Navarez is very good at the plate.  Right behind Grandal at the plate.  Not as good behind the plate, though.

Now bring Thames back and add a third baseman and some pitching.

If you bring back Thames, do you go Urias-Arcia-Hiura-[Braun/Thames Platoon] with Gamel playing LF when Braun plays 1B, and Braun playing LF when Thames plays 1B? A sort of 3-part-2-position-platoon?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 05, 2019, 09:49:19 AM
Given the splits, a platoon with Piña might not be a bad idea.

That's what I see.  And with an expected $2.9 salary and 3 years of control I like the plan.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 05, 2019, 09:50:43 AM
If you bring back Thames, do you go Urias-Arcia-Hiura-[Braun/Thames Platoon] with Gamel playing LF when Braun plays 1B, and Braun playing LF when Thames plays 1B? A sort of 3-part-2-position-platoon?

Let's not assume that Stearns is done.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 05, 2019, 10:35:15 AM
I like Narvaez.  He will give you a good AB every single time.  Never gives them away.  He can be rough behind the plate though, and he won't catch anyone stealing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jficke13 on December 05, 2019, 10:36:16 AM
Let's not assume that Stearns is done.

Fair.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2019, 10:38:48 AM
Navarez is very good at the plate.  Right behind Grandal at the plate.  Not as good behind the plate, though.

Now bring Thames back and add a third baseman and some pitching.


I gotta disagree. He is 27 years old and has has one good season at the plate. He was never even a decent hitter before 2018. In fact, he was a bad hitter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on December 05, 2019, 10:49:52 AM
It sounds like the Brewers have a highly thought of catching coach. The hope seems to be they can coach him up on the defensive side. Seems like a split with Pina would do well to replace the offense that was lost with Grandal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 05, 2019, 10:55:41 AM

I gotta disagree. He is 27 years old and has has one good season at the plate. He was never even a decent hitter before 2018. In fact, he was a bad hitter.

His OPS was only slightly worse 2 years ago with the White Sox.  He, like just about every hitter in baseball, saw an uptick in his power last year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 05, 2019, 11:03:16 AM
What youz guys need to remember is that his salary ONE SIXTH of Grandal's.  I love Yas and I hope he does well with the Sox.  But the Crew's plan to load the lineup with salary last year didn't work out well enough for a variety of reasons although they still made the playoffs.  And of course they couldn't go multi-year on any of that with those aging players.  Only Cain and Braun have the 'old guy' contracts now.

In Stearns I trust.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 05, 2019, 11:34:13 AM
What youz guys need to remember is that his salary ONE SIXTH of Grandal's.  I love Yas and I hope he does well with the Sox.  But the Crew's plan to load the lineup with salary last year didn't work out well enough for a variety of reasons although they still made the playoffs.  And of course they couldn't go multi-year on any of that with those aging players.  Only Cain and Braun have the 'old guy' contracts now.

In Stearns I trust.

Long road ahead of us, but spending at same levels of last year still feels appropriate given Braun is off the books after this year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 05, 2019, 11:51:31 AM
Long road ahead of us, but spending at same levels of last year still feels appropriate given Braun is off the books after this year.

Agreed. So is Stearns angling to do the Yeli lifetime deal in the next 12 months?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 05, 2019, 11:53:36 AM
His OPS was only slightly worse 2 years ago with the White Sox.  He, like just about every hitter in baseball, saw an uptick in his power last year.

Again, I always liked Narvaez, especially as a hitter.  I certainly wouldn't say he is a bad hitter.  Always had good ABs, doesn't swing at junk, he will take is walks.  That's how he was with the Sox, and that's how he was in the minors. 

I was pretty shocked by his power last season.  As a member of the Sox, he was good hitter, but didn't hit with much authority.  Maybe he made an adjustment, I don't really know, didn't see much of the M's last year.  Maybe it was mostly the ball, maybe it was more ABs.  I'd guess in general though, the Brewers will be happy with how he hits from the C position.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2019, 02:41:09 PM
What youz guys need to remember is that his salary ONE SIXTH of Grandal's.  I love Yas and I hope he does well with the Sox.  But the Crew's plan to load the lineup with salary last year didn't work out well enough for a variety of reasons although they still made the playoffs.  And of course they couldn't go multi-year on any of that with those aging players.  Only Cain and Braun have the 'old guy' contracts now.

In Stearns I trust.

I completely agree. I wasn’t knocking the move, but just pointing out that he was never a good hitter in the minors.

I would rather have them spend the money on 2 quality bullpen guys and one or two offensive guys who aren’t highly valued.

Would also love to see them sign Ryu to an incentive laden contract. Two years at $6 mil each with incentives that could raise it to $20 mil per if he starts 30 games.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 05, 2019, 03:12:49 PM
I completely agree. I wasn’t knocking the move, but just pointing out that he was never a good hitter in the minors.

I would rather have them spend the money on 2 quality bullpen guys and one or two offensive guys who aren’t highly valued.

Would also love to see them sign Ryu to an incentive laden contract. Two years at $6 mil each with incentives that could raise it to $20 mil per if he starts 30 games.


I would bet Ryu would command quite a bit more than that.  He was 2nd in Cy Young voting last year and his last 2 years are downright dominant.  His track record of injuries and his age will suppress his market, but I'd be shocked if he isn't at least at 3/60 or so.

Not to mention his agent...
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 05, 2019, 03:23:46 PM
I think I'd like the Sox to take that money that was earmarked for Wheeler and give some to Ryu or Keuchel, then sign Betances and Treinen. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 05, 2019, 03:25:59 PM
I completely agree. I wasn’t knocking the move, but just pointing out that he was never a good hitter in the minors.

I would rather have them spend the money on 2 quality bullpen guys and one or two offensive guys who aren’t highly valued.

Would also love to see them sign Ryu to an incentive laden contract. Two years at $6 mil each with incentives that could raise it to $20 mil per if he starts 30 games.

There's no way Ryu is signing that deal. He's going to get at least Hamels money without incentives tied to it. I'd be shocked if he got less than $18 mil a year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jficke13 on December 05, 2019, 05:08:39 PM
Agreed. So is Stearns angling to do the Yeli lifetime deal in the next 12 months?

I bet he offers the max Milwaukee can offer, and then I bet Yeli gets more from HOU/NYY/LAD/ETC. I won't begrudge him for taking it either. He's been a helluva lot of fun to watch and I'm going to enjoy it while I can.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2019, 05:26:53 PM

I would bet Ryu would command quite a bit more than that.  He was 2nd in Cy Young voting last year and his last 2 years are downright dominant.  His track record of injuries and his age will suppress his market, but I'd be shocked if he isn't at least at 3/60 or so.

Not to mention his agent...

Last year was dominant.

In the previous 4 years he pitched in only 41 games. I'll be surprised if he is even anywhere close to what you predict. Now, he may be able to earn that much, but it will be a heavily incentive-laden contract with a much smaller base salary & guarantee. $5 - $8 mil a year with heavy incentives sounds right.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2019, 05:32:57 PM
There's no way Ryu is signing that deal. He's going to get at least Hamels money without incentives tied to it. I'd be shocked if he got less than $18 mil a year.

Based on skill, yes. But teams are not giving a long term contract to a guy who is on the DL every year. Hamels has 10 different years where he started more games than Ryu has started in a year ever.

We'll see who guesses right, but I think it will be a much smaller base salary than Hamels - unless he opts for a one year deal (not smart with his annual injury history).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 05, 2019, 05:38:58 PM
Based on skill, yes. But teams are giving a long term contract to a guy who is on the DL every year. Hamels has 10 different years where he started more games than Ryu has started in a year ever.

We'll see who guesses right, but I think it will be a much smaller base salary than Hamels - unless he opts for a one year deal (not smart with his annual injury history).

Trust me, if the Sox can get Ryu for $8 mil, I'd jump at that chance. I think this market for pitching is red hot, and the Hamels and Wheeler deals yesterday seem to suggest there's a premium out there.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2019, 05:40:45 PM
Trust me, if the Sox can get Ryu for $8 mil, I'd jump at that chance. I think this market for pitching is red hot, and the Hamels and Wheeler deals yesterday seem to suggest there's a premium out there.

So would I for Milwaukee. But, remember, it will be $8 mil with another $10-$15 mil in incentives for games pitched.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 05, 2019, 08:46:59 PM
So would I for Milwaukee. But, remember, it will be $8 mil with another $10-$15 mil in incentives for games pitched.

Jockey,

IMO 30 starts would make Ryu worth well north of 25 million.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 05, 2019, 09:34:17 PM
Jockey,

IMO 30 starts would make Ryu worth well north of 25 million.

That's where the incentives come in. He probably is worth $25 IF he starts 30 games. But, don't forget, he started exactly 30 games in his rookie year and has not done it since. He also never started over 30 games even once in the Korean Leagues. You gotta be pretty far out on the limb to think he will get healthier as he gets older.

I don't dispute what you value him as. I just don't think any team will be dumb enough to give him that kind of money without regard of how many starts he might make.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 05, 2019, 10:26:40 PM
Last year was the first time Zack Wheeler ever made 30 starts.  And he has never thrown 200 innings.  He is a bit younger, and it makes sense with the years,  but Ryu's results have been better. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 05, 2019, 10:45:45 PM
Pham to Padres, Renfroe and top prospect Xavier Edwards to Tampa.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 05, 2019, 10:49:30 PM
That's where the incentives come in. He probably is worth $25 IF he starts 30 games. But, don't forget, he started exactly 30 games in his rookie year and has not done it since. He also never started over 30 games even once in the Korean Leagues. You gotta be pretty far out on the limb to think he will get healthier as he gets older.

I don't dispute what you value him as. I just don't think any team will be dumb enough to give him that kind of money without regard of how many starts he might make.

I'm trying to think of what other significant contracts in recent MLB history were heavily incentive-laden
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 06, 2019, 11:29:53 AM
I'm trying to think of what other significant contracts in recent MLB history were heavily incentive-laden

I believe Kenta Maeda has a big innings pitched clause.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 07, 2019, 09:30:12 PM
White Sox rumored to be signing Marcel Ozuna on Monday. No details. Love his bat but a) he's right handed and the Sox are already more right handed than I'd like and b) his arm is awful. How does he figure in RF?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 08, 2019, 09:46:54 AM
White Sox rumored to be signing Marcel Ozuna on Monday. No details. Love his bat but a) he's right handed and the Sox are already more right handed than I'd like and b) his arm is awful. How does he figure in RF?

Just a thought, but maybe just get an early start on Eloy's inevitable move to DH, plug Ozuna in left and go get a right fielder.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 08, 2019, 10:43:39 AM
Just a thought, but maybe just get an early start on Eloy's inevitable move to DH, plug Ozuna in left and go get a right fielder.
I'd assume they'll play Ozuna in RF.

Unless they're planning on signing Castellanos, Ozuna, and Grandal.  At that point, I'd worry about Jerry's health.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 08, 2019, 10:59:45 AM
Just a thought, but maybe just get an early start on Eloy's inevitable move to DH, plug Ozuna in left and go get a right fielder.

Frankly, I would love it if they went out and got a relatively cheap left handed bat to play RF. Corey Dickerson would fit the bill. with Eloy at DH and Robert in CF the outfield defense would be pretty good.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 08, 2019, 11:07:27 AM
I'd assume they'll play Ozuna in RF.

Unless they're planning on signing Castellanos, Ozuna, and Grandal.  At that point, I'd worry about Jerry's health.

I think that's a safe assumption, but I'm tossing out a viable alternative to having two subpar corner outfielders while addressing the team's long-running need for a legit DH. And as a bonus, it likely allows Eloy to avoid some of the nagging injuries he suffered in the field last year.

I don't think this is the plan, unfortunately, but it would make a lot of sense if it were. Then they could look for a discount right fielder on a 1-2 year deal like Dickerson (nice call, Lenny) or maybe even take a flyer on Shogo Akiyama.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 08, 2019, 12:42:48 PM
 Crew signed Keon to a minor league deal with an invite to camp.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 08, 2019, 12:53:42 PM
Frankly, I would love it if they went out and got a relatively cheap left handed bat to play RF. Corey Dickerson would fit the bill. with Eloy at DH and Robert in CF the outfield defense would be pretty good.

I can't see them moving Eloy to DH just yet.  Especially with Abreu now signed for the next few years, and with Collins, Grandal and McCann, and Vaughn on the way. 

Ozuna wouldn't be my first choice, but is obviously a huge upgrade (anything would be) over what they've had.  Personally I think Calhoun makes a lot of sense.  Good, not great player, probably shorter term deal to see if Adolfo/Rutherford/Gonzalez/Walker can develop.  LH hitter, good defender.  Not the impact bat of Ozuna, but would fit nicely I think. 

I'm on board with Dickerson too.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 08, 2019, 01:28:43 PM
Yankees over Cole $245M over 7 years
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 08, 2019, 06:43:36 PM
Yankees over Cole $245M over 7 years

Yankees may get him but I doubt at that number.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on December 08, 2019, 11:19:29 PM
Ted Simmons and Marvin Miller elected to MLB Hall of Fame.

Jay Jaffe had a good piece recently on why Simmons was deserving.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ted-simmons-election-to-the-hall-of-fame-is-overdue/

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/after-years-cardinals-catcher-simmons-makes-the-leap-to-hall/article_0ebd8def-9d0b-515f-a2c9-e32bee0b0f5e.html

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 08, 2019, 11:20:49 PM
Yankees may get him but I doubt at that number.

Angels might be at $300M already...ugh...I hate how we blow money in free agency...often way overpaying
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 09, 2019, 01:57:45 PM
Washington keeps Strasburg. 7 years/$245 million.

Also, for the Brewers fans:
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Free-agent left-hander Álex Claudio’s deal with the #Brewers is one year, $1.75M, source tells The Athletic. Also includes incentives.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 09, 2019, 02:12:49 PM
Free-agent left-hander Álex Claudio’s deal with the #Brewers is one year, $1.75M, source tells The Athletic. Also includes incentives.
Good luck facing a 3-batter minimum, Alex.  The stupidest unnatural carnal knowledgeing rule ever will affect Claudio disproportionately.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 09, 2019, 02:37:27 PM
Good luck facing a 3-batter minimum, Alex.  The stupidest unnatural carnal knowledgeing rule ever will affect Claudio disproportionately.

<shrug>  I like the rule.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jficke13 on December 09, 2019, 03:49:26 PM
<Claudio comes in, faces lefty, gets out, waves to dugout>

"What's the matter?" Trainer asks.

"Side grabbed on the last pitch," Claudio says.

<Trainer oversees a warmup toss>

"Not taking any chances with an oblique," Couns says. "You're done."

<Claudio returns to the clubhouse for "treatment">
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 09, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
Sox say they aren't signing Ozuna.
Bruce Levine says Sox and Cubs are pursuing Castellanos and Keuchel.

https://www.southsidesox.com/2019/12/9/21003654/white-sox-rumors-marcell-ozuna-jerry-to-rick-huh
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 09, 2019, 04:17:00 PM
<Claudio comes in, faces lefty, gets out, waves to dugout>

"What's the matter?" Trainer asks.

"Side grabbed on the last pitch," Claudio says.

<Trainer oversees a warmup toss>

"Not taking any chances with an oblique," Couns says. "You're done."

<Claudio returns to the clubhouse for "treatment">
That's another reason the rule is stupid.  This scenario sure doesn't sound like it's improving the "pace of play."
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 09, 2019, 04:52:45 PM
<Claudio comes in, faces lefty, gets out, waves to dugout>

"What's the matter?" Trainer asks.

"Side grabbed on the last pitch," Claudio says.

<Trainer oversees a warmup toss>

"Not taking any chances with an oblique," Couns says. "You're done."

<Claudio returns to the clubhouse for "treatment">


That's pretty silly. There would be rules in place to prevent this.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 09, 2019, 05:28:04 PM
Brewers signed a utility infielder away from the Tigers today.   Ronny Rodriguez is a streaky hitter and a streaky fielder.    Can play all 4 infield positions, none spectacularly well.   He is a free swinger and fun to watch when he is hot.   He doesn't seem to have a plan B when he is not hot. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 09, 2019, 05:35:39 PM
Brewers signed a utility infielder away from the Tigers today.   Ronny Rodriguez is a streaky hitter and a streaky fielder.    Can play all 4 infield positions, none spectacularly well.   He is a free swinger and fun to watch when he is hot.   He doesn't seem to have a plan B when he is not hot.

So, he’s new Hernan Perez
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 09, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
Another former Tiger.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 09, 2019, 05:50:41 PM
He is a free swinger and fun to watch when he is hot.
You must be describing August 17-23, 2018.  Literally.  There is no other time in his career Ronny Rodriguez can be categorized as "hot."
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 10, 2019, 06:21:39 AM
I didn't say they were long hot streaks.    If they were, he wouldn't be a utility infielder and the Brewers would not have been able to get him so cheap. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 10, 2019, 06:45:12 AM
So, he’s new Hernan Perez

well played
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on December 10, 2019, 07:49:34 AM

That's pretty silly. There would be rules in place to prevent this.
I agree.  I don't know what that rule will be, though.  It should be that the pitcher removed from the game for injury has to go on the IL.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: mikekinsellaMVP on December 10, 2019, 10:28:58 AM
I agree.  I don't know what that rule will be, though.  It should be that the pitcher removed from the game for injury has to go on the IL.

Nah, just use the MU-Mizzou FT rule and let the opposing dugout pick the next reliever.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 10, 2019, 01:16:53 PM
Nah, just use the MU-Mizzou FT rule and let the opposing dugout pick the next reliever.

I think you are trying to be funny ..., but that might be the best way to stop a team from faking an injury.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on December 10, 2019, 02:19:26 PM
Can you guys believe that there's a mystery team involved in the bidding for a big money Scott Boras client!?!?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 10, 2019, 02:26:26 PM
Can you guys believe that there's a mystery team involved in the bidding for a big money Scott Boras client!?!?

They're from Canada. You wouldn't know them.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 10, 2019, 02:29:22 PM
Can you guys believe that there's a mystery team involved in the bidding for a big money Scott Boras client!?!?

Usually, if it's a "mystery" team involved, it's the Rangers.

Boras doesn't need to hype his guys. They are gonna get paid.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 10, 2019, 02:47:02 PM
Boras doesn't need to hype his guys. They are gonna get paid.
I believe Boras is Addison Russell's agent.  He may want to try to hype that one.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 10, 2019, 05:26:08 PM
Should be obvious the mystery team either doesn’t exist or is the Astros, his existing team.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 10, 2019, 06:21:52 PM
White Sox and Rangers reportedly in talks about Nomar Mazara.
A younger, cheaper and much more 'meh' alternative to Joc Pedserson, I suppose.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on December 10, 2019, 06:37:09 PM
Mazara would be a good guy to take shot on.  In 2015 he was a top 20 prospect in baseball, and he's just still just 24.  His K% is only in the low 20s, he hits 20HRs per year, and hes got two years of team control left.  Sure there are blips, but there's still upside there.

Didi bet on himself with a 1 yr deal for $14M.  If you've got that money laying around, that's a fine way to spend it. He was a 4+ WAR player in 2017 & 2018, and heck, a 1 WAR player in half a season last year.  Very good chance he returns value on $14M.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2019, 06:57:50 PM
White Sox and Rangers reportedly in talks about Nomar Mazara.
A younger, cheaper and much more 'meh' alternative to Joc Pedserson, I suppose.

At 20 or 21 I thought that guy had star written all over him. Now (as you say) he looks like the poster boy for "meh"
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 10, 2019, 08:24:58 PM
At 20 or 21 I thought that guy had star written all over him. Now (as you say) he looks like the poster boy for "meh"

White Sox #6 prospect Steele Walker is what's rumored to be going back for Mazara.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2019, 09:27:43 PM
White Sox #6 prospect Steele Walker is what's rumored to be going back for Mazara.

Three years ago the Mazara was near untouchable. Now Steele Walker seems like too much.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 10, 2019, 10:59:41 PM
Jon Heyman reporting Cole to the Yankees for 9 years/$324 million.
Righteous bucks.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 10, 2019, 11:00:51 PM
Jon Heyman reporting Cole to the Yankees for 9 years/$324 million.
Righteous bucks.

Wow.  9 years for a pitcher is.... well the Yanks have money.  That's for sure.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 10, 2019, 11:09:33 PM
Wow.  9 years for a pitcher is.... well the Yanks have money.  That's for sure.

These days, teams hope for 5-6 good years for a contract like that.

I'm pretty sure the Cubs don't regret signing Lester to a contract that lasts far longer than his best years. He helped them win what they desperately wanted.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 10, 2019, 11:11:15 PM
I wish the White Sox would have offered that to Cole.

Report is Mazara to the Sox is done...ugh, tough night. Not happy.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 10, 2019, 11:46:37 PM
I wish the White Sox would have offered that to Cole.

Report is Mazara to the Sox is done...ugh, tough night. Not happy.

The good news is they traded Steele Walker, to the Texas Rangers.  So that's fun.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on December 11, 2019, 05:13:47 AM
Jon Heyman reporting Cole to the Yankees for 9 years/$324 million.
Righteous bucks.
That’s $1.38mm per biweekly paycheck.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 11, 2019, 05:15:51 AM
That’s $1.38mm per biweekly paycheck.

Yeah but after taxes...
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2019, 06:10:10 AM
Chit, all deez dudes have fookin' one da lottery, aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 11, 2019, 07:15:09 AM
Being the Yankees, his first purchase is going to have to be a razor and a haircut.    As a Tiger fan contemplating the twin albatrosses of the Zimmerman and Cabrera contracts, I am thrilled the Yankees spent so much on him.   
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 11, 2019, 07:30:26 AM
Being the Yankees, his first purchase is going to have to be a razor and a haircut.    As a Tiger fan contemplating the twin albatrosses of the Zimmerman and Cabrera contracts, I am thrilled the Yankees spent so much on him.   


Seriously, they still have that rule???
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 11, 2019, 07:49:07 AM
By all accounts.   I cannot find anything saying it has been rescinded.   
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 11, 2019, 07:57:11 AM
By all accounts.   I cannot find anything saying it has been rescinded.

It hasn't been.
Andrew McCutcheon had to shave when he was traded to the Yankees in 2018, and Dallas Keuchel spoke last year about being willing to shave his beard if he signed with the Yankees as a FA.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 11, 2019, 08:03:29 AM
I wish the White Sox would have offered that to Cole.

Report is Mazara to the Sox is done...ugh, tough night. Not happy.

Sox were never going to offer that kind of deal to Cole.

As for Mazara, I think he's a very blah player, but I'm OK with what they gave up for him.
Walker as a 22-year-old slashed .284/.361/.451 in Single A last year.
Mazara as a 24-year-old slashed .268/.318/.469 in the majors last year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 11, 2019, 08:12:16 AM
It hasn't been.
Andrew McCutcheon had to shave when he was traded to the Yankees in 2018, and Dallas Keuchel spoke last year about being willing to shave his beard if he signed with the Yankees as a FA.


So weird.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 11, 2019, 08:23:33 AM
It hasn't been.
Andrew McCutcheon had to shave when he was traded to the Yankees in 2018, and Dallas Keuchel spoke last year about being willing to shave his beard if he signed with the Yankees as a FA.

Marlins had similar policy, directed by the manager, under Girardi and Mattingly.

When I was with the Angels we had same policy that came from the Walt Disney company to all employees at the time, unless it was required for a movie or theme park costume appearance.

Publix didn’t change their policy until last year. Chic fil a still does not allow them.  Other companies don’t because of safety issues. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 11, 2019, 09:01:15 AM
Chit, all deez dudes have fookin' one da lottery, aina?

Yep. Except unlike lottery winners, deez dudes all have fookin' skills that no other humans have.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 11, 2019, 09:04:16 AM
Yep. Except unlike lottery winners, deez dudes all have fookin' skills that no other humans have.

They better hope the RSN $$$ don’t collapse, which appears to be at risk right now, or paying these contracts after 2025ish is going to be really interesting.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 11, 2019, 09:05:27 AM
Sox were never going to offer that kind of deal to Cole.

As for Mazara, I think he's a very blah player, but I'm OK with what they gave up for him.
Walker as a 22-year-old slashed .284/.361/.451 in Single A last year.
Mazara as a 24-year-old slashed .268/.318/.469 in the majors last year.

Yeah.  I don't get the hate for this move.  Mazara isn't perfect, but he is a real good strong side platoon.  Still pretty young with a chance to improve, at very least he gives you a MLB caliber player, which they didnt last year.  And they traded a guy that was basically redundant in their system.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2019, 09:13:59 AM
Sox were never going to offer that kind of deal to Cole.

As for Mazara, I think he's a very blah player, but I'm OK with what they gave up for him.
Walker as a 22-year-old slashed .284/.361/.451 in Single A last year.
Mazara as a 24-year-old slashed .268/.318/.469 in the majors last year.

And matching the Yanks offer wouldn't have done it for the Sox. Probably would have taken 10 years, 360 million.

I don't mind the Mazara trade if the thought is to platoon him as a RF/DH . He rakes vs RHP. But only is they use the $ they saved on 2 good starting pitchers.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2019, 09:20:21 AM
Yankees may get him but I doubt at that number.

7/245 wasn't even in the ballpark.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 11, 2019, 09:28:24 AM
Probably would have taken 10 years, 360 million.


Jeesh! That's almost double what 'topper gets to moderate Scoop!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 11, 2019, 09:48:28 AM
But only is they use the $ they saved on 2 good starting pitchers.
They still have to use the "Machado money" from last year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 11, 2019, 10:48:15 AM
Yeah.  I don't get the hate for this move.  Mazara isn't perfect, but he is a real good strong side platoon.  Still pretty young with a chance to improve, at very least he gives you a MLB caliber player, which they didnt last year.  And they traded a guy that was basically redundant in their system.

I think objectively the trade itself shouldn't move the needle much either way. They gave up a mid-tier prospect for a mid-tier major league player.
I'd guess the hate is more out of fear that this it all the Sox are going to come up with this offseason. In which case, the hate is justified. I like the Grandal move, but after another year of being promised that the Sox would be at the big boys table this winter, if Grandal, Mazara and maybe some back-of-the-rotation starter is it, fans will understandably feel Rick Hahn has become football-holding Lucy to our Charlie Brown.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 11, 2019, 10:50:00 AM
I know the Sox were never going to get comfortable going after Cole, totally get that. My thought is he’s the best pitcher on the planet, in his prime, it costs you nothing but money (no assets). Sox are ridiculously profitable,  nowhere near luxury tax, are close to contending, and have a need.

I know he probably signs elsewhere anyway. Sigh.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 11, 2019, 12:24:14 PM
I think objectively the trade itself shouldn't move the needle much either way. They gave up a mid-tier prospect for a mid-tier major league player.
I'd guess the hate is more out of fear that this it all the Sox are going to come up with this offseason. In which case, the hate is justified. I like the Grandal move, but after another year of being promised that the Sox would be at the big boys table this winter, if Grandal, Mazara and maybe some back-of-the-rotation starter is it, fans will understandably feel Rick Hahn has become football-holding Lucy to our Charlie Brown.

Completely agree.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 11, 2019, 01:17:56 PM
Completely agree.

I agree on all of the opinions on Mazara. Just an OK guy, nothing more. But, he will replace the ABs of Cordell, Palka, Tilson, and Delmonico. THAT is a huge upgrade.

If this move (plus Grandal) is combined with getting at least one of the 2nd tier of starters, plus a piece or two for the bullpen, it will rate as a fairly successful off-season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 11, 2019, 05:53:08 PM
Sounds like a Sox N Sox trade is in the works.  No idea what or how close or anything like that, but some David Price related scuttle.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 11, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
I agree on all of the opinions on Mazara. Just an OK guy, nothing more. But, he will replace the ABs of Cordell, Palka, Tilson, and Delmonico. THAT is a huge upgrade.

If this move (plus Grandal) is combined with getting at least one of the 2nd tier of starters, plus a piece or two for the bullpen, it will rate as a fairly successful off-season.

Agree on all counts. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on December 11, 2019, 06:38:58 PM
Brewers dipping back into that KBO pipeline. Sounds like Lindblom will be in the rotation. Won the KBO version of MVP and Cy Young last season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 11, 2019, 08:20:45 PM
Yep. Except unlike lottery winners, deez dudes all have fookin' skills that no other humans have.

I tought dat was Ron Jeremy and Peter North,  aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 11, 2019, 09:44:39 PM
Angel's honing in on Rendon.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 11, 2019, 09:51:25 PM
And it's done.  Quite the running mate for Trout.  And with Adell coming, Ohtani coming back, if they can get a pitcher or two they could be something.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2019, 06:40:31 AM
And it's done.  Quite the running mate for Trout.  And with Adell coming, Ohtani coming back, if they can get a pitcher or two they could be something.

Same $ and term as Strasburg. IMO a guy like Rendon is a bigger impact on the regular season but a much smaller one in the playoffs. Think this will turn out to be a big overpay.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 12, 2019, 08:19:19 AM
And it's done.  Quite the running mate for Trout.  And with Adell coming, Ohtani coming back, if they can get a pitcher or two they could be something.

All comes down to pitching for us, which has been brutal with the insane Tommy John surgeries, and general lack of quality from the healthy ones.  On the other hand, we haven’t had a quality 3rd baseman in years and we blocked the Doyers from getting him which I love.  Offense I am not worried about...if they get two starting pitchers I will start to feel good.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 12, 2019, 08:59:27 AM
I don't follow the Angels and don't pretend to be an expert on them (as hoopaloop does with the Panthers). But I did see a quote in which Moreno said he'd rather give big money to position players than pitchers.

How has that been working for him?

He bought the team less than a year after the Angels won their only championship (2002). Under his watch, they have never made it back to the World Series and have only reached the ALCS twice.

They haven't won a single postseason game the last 10 seasons -- despite having baseball's best player for almost that entire span. They have had losing records in 6 of those 10 seasons.

And the trend has not been their friend: Losing records the last 4 seasons, finishing 21, 21, 23 and 35 games out of first place.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.” -- Albert Einstein
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 12, 2019, 09:22:54 AM
I don't follow the Angels and don't pretend to be an expert on them (as hoopaloop does with the Panthers). But I did see a quote in which Moreno said he'd rather give big money to position players than pitchers.

How has that been working for him?

He bought the team less than a year after the Angels won their only championship (2002). Under his watch, they have never made it back to the World Series and have only reached the ALCS twice.

They haven't won a single postseason game the last 10 seasons -- despite having baseball's best player for almost that entire span. They have had losing records in 6 of those 10 seasons.

And the trend has not been their friend: Losing records the last 4 seasons, finishing 21, 21, 23 and 35 games out of first place.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.” -- Albert Einstein

Clearly you don’t know much about them as stated.  I don’t follow the Panthers, just listen to the experts I trus and see how many games they won with an injured Cam that the team kept shuttling out there vs a healthy backup....0 wins is 0 wins...poor play, etc.

As for Moreno, let’s put this in context.  The Angels in their entire history have won only 9 division titles.  I believe 6 of them have been with Moreno as the owner. 

Losing records the last four years...yes...but go a little deeper and two of them at 80-82, meaning one game from .500.  They also had the best record in baseball in 2014.   They have had more Tommy John surgeries since 2009 then anyone and by a huge number...lots of bad luck on that front.  Two promising starting pitchers dead as well.

His rationale is the pitcher helps you once every 5 days vs the hitter all year round.  Pitching is key, we all get it, but also more risky investment.  He went hard after Cole, he didn’t get him....he certainly values pitching, but you cannot always get what you want.  Let’s not forget he did get Ohtani, a pitcher and hitter.  Ther e are only two players I can think of that most Angels fans get on Arte for...Hamilton and Wells.  Pujols was a gamble to try and win it all in the first few years...they had the best record in baseball and ran into the Royals who swept every team in the AL until losing in 7 in the WS.  Albert is a model citizen, great clubhouse leader, community guy, etc.   Hamilton was awful.  Wells was awful.  He kept a trout when many experts said he was gone.  He got Simmons for a song.  Ohtani for a song.  Just bought the land from the city which will keep the team in OC and out of dreaded LA county for the next 50 years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 12, 2019, 10:32:30 AM
Clearly you don’t know much about them as stated.  I don’t follow the Panthers, just listen to the experts I trus and see how many games they won with an injured Cam that the team kept shuttling out there vs a healthy backup....0 wins is 0 wins...poor play, etc.

As for Moreno, let’s put this in context.  The Angels in their entire history have won only 9 division titles.  I believe 6 of them have been with Moreno as the owner. 

Losing records the last four years...yes...but go a little deeper and two of them at 80-82, meaning one game from .500.  They also had the best record in baseball in 2014.   They have had more Tommy John surgeries since 2009 then anyone and by a huge number...lots of bad luck on that front.  Two promising starting pitchers dead as well.

His rationale is the pitcher helps you once every 5 days vs the hitter all year round.  Pitching is key, we all get it, but also more risky investment.  He went hard after Cole, he didn’t get him....he certainly values pitching, but you cannot always get what you want.  Let’s not forget he did get Ohtani, a pitcher and hitter.  Ther e are only two players I can think of that most Angels fans get on Arte for...Hamilton and Wells.  Pujols was a gamble to try and win it all in the first few years...they had the best record in baseball and ran into the Royals who swept every team in the AL until losing in 7 in the WS.  Albert is a model citizen, great clubhouse leader, community guy, etc.   Hamilton was awful.  Wells was awful.  He kept a trout when many experts said he was gone.  He got Simmons for a song.  Ohtani for a song.  Just bought the land from the city which will keep the team in OC and out of dreaded LA county for the next 50 years.

I simply cited facts available to everybody.

Sad to hear that your ballclub is singularly snakebitten. Maybe Moreno needs to invest in 4-leaf clovers and rabbit's feet as well as overpriced hitters.

Angels have won as many postseason games in the last 10 years as Cam has won football games in the last 13 months, that much we can agree on.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 12, 2019, 10:40:40 AM
Look at this!  Cheeks and 82 poking at each other to start a pissing match in the MLB thread.  There's something new.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: mu_hilltopper on December 12, 2019, 10:59:15 AM
So .. this thread and the above people have been reported multiple times today.

The text isn't .. removable, nor bannable, so here I am typing words instead of eating Arby's, telling you guys to .. well, I don't know.  Stop antagonizing eachother? 

Glad we got that settled.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 12, 2019, 11:52:21 AM
Dayad!   Make MU82 stop touching me!    I did not!   He started it!   

Don't make me pull this message board or so help me.....
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 12, 2019, 08:58:19 PM
Crean Notre Dame The Ricketts suck
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 12, 2019, 09:19:33 PM
Look at this!  Cheeks and 82 poking at each other to start a pissing match in the MLB thread.  There's something new.

It's a baseball thread and we're having a baseball argument. Compared to most of hoopaloop's stuff, this is a breath of fresh air

I just hope Rendon has a good curveball and slider. Angels had a 5.12 ERA last season, and no amount of hitting can overcome that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 13, 2019, 12:45:25 AM
I simply cited facts available to everybody.

Sad to hear that your ballclub is singularly snakebitten. Maybe Moreno needs to invest in 4-leaf clovers and rabbit's feet as well as overpriced hitters.

Angels have won as many postseason games in the last 10 years as Cam has won football games in the last 13 months, that much we can agree on.

I also cited facts available to everyone, I just went deeper than you did.  Your facts are correct...so were mine.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2019, 09:49:53 AM
Ther e are only two players I can think of that most Angels fans get on Arte for...Hamilton and Wells.  Pujols was a gamble to try and win it all in the first few years...they had the best record in baseball and ran into the Royals who swept every team in the AL until losing in 7 in the WS.  Albert is a model citizen, great clubhouse leader, community guy, etc. 

Pujols has been worth 13.7 WAR in 8 years with the Angels. After 10 (given his trajectory) he will end up well south of 15. Pretty sure he was north of 15 in 2 good years in St Louis. Given his production and price (10/240 million) he was a horrible signing. The rest is BS - model citizens and good clubhouse guys aren't worth much if they can't run hit or field much. Without his albatross guaranteed contract he would have been non tendered years ago.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 13, 2019, 01:18:52 PM
Logos for the Reverse of Team Names
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELqhJRoWoAEhr52.jpg)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on December 13, 2019, 02:50:57 PM
Brewers sign Brett Anderson - 1 yr, $5M.  Makes me curious whether Stearns is also interested in Keuchel, given their relative similarities, or if Anderson just represented a good value opportunity.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on December 13, 2019, 03:25:30 PM
Logos for the Reverse of Team Names
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELqhJRoWoAEhr52.jpg)

Irwin’s is absolutely savage
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 13, 2019, 06:33:06 PM
Brewers sign Brett Anderson - 1 yr, $5M.  Makes me curious whether Stearns is also interested in Keuchel, given their relative similarities, or if Anderson just represented a good value opportunity.

Any pitcher can turn out to be a stud, but IMHO this does not look like a "win while he have Yelich" rotation:
   
1) Woodruff
2) Lauer
3) Houser
4) Anderson
5) Lindblom
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 13, 2019, 07:28:42 PM
Pujols has been worth 13.7 WAR in 8 years with the Angels. After 10 (given his trajectory) he will end up well south of 15. Pretty sure he was north of 15 in 2 good years in St Louis. Given his production and price (10/240 million) he was a horrible signing. The rest is BS - model citizens and good clubhouse guys aren't worth much if they can't run hit or field much. Without his albatross guaranteed contract he would have been non tendered years ago.

Except of course the only way to get him was to offer him a long term contract of many years which everyone knew would be beyond his productivity.  They went for whole thing early on hoping the first couple of years they could get it done.  No other choice, if you wanted him....you had to buy the down years.  In the early part of his contract, they had the best record in all of baseball, but it didn't translate into playoff success.  My point on the other stuff is that despite his production (or downward trajectory) he is admired for who he is.  It could be a lot worse if he was a jerk, didn't do great things in the community, etc.  He's a first-ballot HOFer and that buys some credibility with some people.  No one is denying when he comes off the books it opens up more room for the club, thankfully he isn't a prima donna and remains a solid clubhouse and citizen. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on December 13, 2019, 07:34:23 PM
Any pitcher can turn out to be a stud, but IMHO this does not look like a "win while he have Yelich" rotation:
   
1) Woodruff
2) Lauer
3) Houser
4) Anderson
5) Lindblom

I’d be very surprised and disappointed if this is the rotation. With the payroll flexibility, I’m still thinking we’ve got a chance at a decent pitcher or taking on a contract in trade.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2019, 02:19:34 PM
Corey Kluber to the Rangers for Delino DeShields and a minor league pitcher.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 15, 2019, 02:38:34 PM
I’d be very surprised and disappointed if this is the rotation. With the payroll flexibility, I’m still thinking we’ve got a chance at a decent pitcher or taking on a contract in trade.

With rumors of them shopping Lindor, the Tribe appears to be in fire sale mode ... which would make it all the more tragic if the Sox don't do more this offseason to put themselves in contention. They should be in the wild card race simply by virtue of 57 games Cleveland, Detroit and KC.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 15, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Corey Kluber to the Rangers for Delino DeShields and a minor league pitcher.

Shocked that Cleveland got almost nothing back as Kluber was under contract for two years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2019, 02:51:29 PM
With rumors of them shopping Lindor, the Tribe appears to be in fire sale mode ... which would make it all the more tragic if the Sox don't do more this offseason to put themselves in contention. They should be in the wild card race simply by virtue of 57 games Cleveland, Detroit and KC.

Agreed
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 15, 2019, 03:55:41 PM
Bumgarner to Arizona.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 15, 2019, 04:14:40 PM
Bumgarner to Arizona.

5-85 with 15 deferred.  Meanwhile Rick Hahn is listening to the Chipmunks Christmas album in repeat.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 15, 2019, 05:03:31 PM
5-85 with 15 deferred.  Meanwhile Rick Hahn is listening to the Chipmunks Christmas album in repeat.

The Sox are trying super hard.
(Source: Rick Hahn)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 15, 2019, 07:53:46 PM
The Sox are trying super hard.
(Source: Rick Hahn)

Heard GarPax were called in to consult.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on December 15, 2019, 08:03:05 PM
Heard GarPax were called in to consult.


Ooooh boy. Hope Duke and UNC have strong seniors in the upcoming draft.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 15, 2019, 09:19:52 PM

Ooooh boy. Hope Duke and UNC have strong seniors in the upcoming draft.

The Sox have hit the baseball equivalent, with Oregon and Vanderbilt. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 16, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
Looks like the Crew is trying to sign Garcia to play in right thus shifting Yeli to left and  Braun to 1B. I don't really have an opinion on that but am interested in folks thoughts.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 16, 2019, 01:38:28 PM
Looks like the Crew is trying to sign Garcia to play in right thus shifting Yeli to left and  Braun to 1B. I don't really have an opinion on that but am interested in folks thoughts.

Garcia is a decent player who never lived up to his potential in Chicago. He's got a respectable bat, but us Sox fans always looked at his tools and wondered why he couldn't/wouldn't do more.  Like, how is it that a 6'4", 250-pound man never surpassed more than 20 HRs in a hitter-friendly park?
Also, he's a subpar fielder and injury prone.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 16, 2019, 01:42:53 PM
Looks like the Crew is trying to sign Garcia to play in right thus shifting Yeli to left and  Braun to 1B. I don't really have an opinion on that but am interested in folks thoughts.

Avi was frustrating as a Sox player. Always seemed like he'd breakout and be a borderline star player, but that never really happened. He had a good 2017 season, and it didn't help that he had hype around him as the next Mags. He was fine in Tampa last year and I think he's fine for a season at $6ish mil, you could do worse.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 16, 2019, 01:53:45 PM
Avi was frustrating as a Sox player. Always seemed like he'd breakout and be a borderline star player, but that never really happened. He had a good 2017 season, and it didn't help that he had hype around him as the next Mags. He was fine in Tampa last year and I think he's fine for a season at $6ish mil, you could do worse.

He was never going to become a star. But if being counted on to be the 4th or 5th best hitter in the lineup is an option, he will be pretty good at that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 16, 2019, 02:08:34 PM
He was never going to become a star. But if being counted on to be the 4th or 5th best hitter in the lineup is an option, he will be pretty good at that.

I was a Sox fan that always liked Avi.  He isn't a perfect player, and will drive you crazy sometimes when he goes through spells of giving ABs away.  But there is talent there.  I think this ^^^ is the right way to look at him.  He isn't going to carry your team, but he can be an important contributor. 

Hi defense, like his offense, can be frustrating.  He makes most of the plays, but sometimes will take horrible routes and make poor choices, but he can get to the the ball and he can throw. 

He had a strong season last year for Tampa, and I would expect similar results.  Really, his last 3 seasons have been pretty decent.  And in 2018 he was battling injuries for the Sox.  If that is the guy the Brewers are getting, he will help.  But as Dish said, don't look at the tools and expect a star.  When he hits a 480 foot home run, know that it is a once a year thing.  There isn't some huge untapped well there.  Though with that said, I wouldn't be surprised if moving to Miller Park  (or AMfam?  Is that what it is?  Sorry can't quite recall) helps him with his power a bit.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on December 16, 2019, 02:09:12 PM
Any pitcher can turn out to be a stud, but IMHO this does not look like a "win while he have Yelich" rotation:
   
1) Woodruff
2) Lauer
3) Houser
4) Anderson
5) Lindblom

That's exactly right.  I also think of it as a "win while you have Counsel".
I'm a Cubs fan, and I've been delighted with the Brewers off season so far.  I don't understand shipping Davies off at all.  I won't be shocked if they are fighting for the division again like they've done the last few years, but I will be shocked if they are fighting for a world series.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on December 16, 2019, 02:25:30 PM
I know the Cubs need to wait for the Bryant service time decision to fully come through, but it's pretty clear this isn't an all-in year and that they are going to try to retool on the fly while they wait out a few contracts.
The pitching staff: God love him, Lester's best days are behind him. Q is a fine 3 or 4, but hasn't become a big game pitcher.  I love Hendricks and he's locked up.  Yu's contract went from an albatross to an asset somehow with the new pitcher contracts.  Looks like it's either Chatwood or Adzolay for the 5 unless Bryant gets dealt for a Max Fried type.

The lineup - Rizzo's contract isn't being extended. Heyward will keep playing his out.  I don't see Contrares being dealt, and they overvalue Schwarbs so I think (as reported) Bryant is the most likely to go given the pay day he will be due with Boras as his man.   Javy will be extended at some point.
This middle group is so tough to call:  Bote, Happ, Almora, primarily.  If that's your bench, fine, but there will be holes to be filled and they are going to have to fill them.
I'd be pretty surprised if we got Castellanos back.

The pen: You're stuck with Kimbrel.  You've got Wick and Ryan.  Also Wieck and Cotton.... they don't really know what they have here.

Not that he's holding still because of this, but are Theo's eyes already on the door?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 16, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
I know the Cubs need to wait for the Bryant service time decision to fully come through, but it's pretty clear this isn't an all-in year and that they are going to try to retool on the fly while they wait out a few contracts.
The pitching staff: God love him, Lester's best days are behind him. Q is a fine 3 or 4, but hasn't become a big game pitcher.  I love Hendricks and he's locked up.  Yu's contract went from an albatross to an asset somehow with the new pitcher contracts.  Looks like it's either Chatwood or Adzolay for the 5 unless Bryant gets dealt for a Max Fried type.

The lineup - Rizzo's contract isn't being extended. Heyward will keep playing his out.  I don't see Contrares being dealt, and they overvalue Schwarbs so I think (as reported) Bryant is the most likely to go given the pay day he will be due with Boras as his man.   Javy will be extended at some point.
This middle group is so tough to call:  Bote, Happ, Almora, primarily.  If that's your bench, fine, but there will be holes to be filled and they are going to have to fill them.
I'd be pretty surprised if we got Castellanos back.

The pen: You're stuck with Kimbrel.  You've got Wick and Ryan.  Also Wieck and Cotton.... they don't really know what they have here.

Not that he's holding still because of this, but are Theo's eyes already on the door?

It's funny you mention that about Darvish, the other day I thought the exact same thing, he's somehow become their best trade chip (if they wanted to go that route, and I don't think they will). If the Cubs had pitching coming up in their system, I think Darvish would bring back a ton. I also think a Quintana trade back to the Southside would make sense. Neither of these will happen, the Cubs aren't trading either of those guys. If their year goes South, both guys could be dealt come July, but I see the Cubs contending for the NL Central next year, even if they don't do much of anything this offseason.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 16, 2019, 03:53:43 PM
I'm surprised Avi got $10 mil per, good for him. I thought he'd get $7 mil per max, especially with the other options out there.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on December 16, 2019, 04:46:38 PM
Not sure how I feel about bringing in Garcia with the whole Prince Fielder thing. Going to be a tough guy to cheer for.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 16, 2019, 05:06:07 PM
Not sure how I feel about bringing in Garcia with the whole Prince Fielder thing. Going to be a tough guy to cheer for.

Some story?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on December 16, 2019, 05:08:26 PM
I've got no problem with a 2 year deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 16, 2019, 05:12:26 PM
Some story?
Avi was reportedly messing around with Mrs. Fielder when they were teammates in Detroit.  Legend has it that the resulting trades of Fielder, Garcia, and Doug Fister were because of it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 16, 2019, 05:21:43 PM
Avi was reportedly messing around with Mrs. Fielder when they were teammates in Detroit.  Legend has it that the resulting trades of Fielder, Garcia, and Doug Fister were because of it.

What's the deal with Fister?  The other two I get in that situation.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 16, 2019, 05:38:47 PM
Sports fans love few things more than a "Play A is sleeping with Player B's wife" rumor.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on December 16, 2019, 06:08:07 PM
Sports fans love few things more than a "Play A is sleeping with Player B's wife" rumor.

Agreed. But there seems to be a lot of smoke here given the immediate trades and filing for divorce.

https://thesportsdaily.com/2013/12/22/wait-that-s-why-they-traded-prince-fielder/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on December 16, 2019, 06:20:15 PM
What's the deal with Fister?  The other two I get in that situation.

Fister? I hardly know her.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 16, 2019, 06:32:53 PM
Agreed. But there seems to be a lot of smoke here given the immediate trades and filing for divorce.

https://thesportsdaily.com/2013/12/22/wait-that-s-why-they-traded-prince-fielder/

So on the same day Garcia and Cabrera get into a clubhouse melee, the Tigers work a three-team, seven-player deal to ship Garcia out of town (nice of the Red Sox and White Sox to cooperate).
And this all just so happens to go down on the same day as the trade deadline?
Hmmm.

But the source on this story is "a guy who knows a lot of guys who knows a lot of guys." That's rock solid.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on December 16, 2019, 06:48:06 PM
So on the same day Garcia and Cabrera get into a clubhouse melee, the Tigers work a three-team, seven-player deal to ship Garcia out of town (nice of the Red Sox and White Sox to cooperate).
And this all just so happens to go down on the same day as the trade deadline?
Hmmm.

But the source on this story is "a guy who knows a lot of guys who knows a lot of guys." That's rock solid.

Fair enough. It isn't fact, but combined with comments made by Torii Hunter afterwards, players confirming that there was more to the story about Cabrera being injured, etc. I'm buying it. This has been circulating for years.

Maybe it isn't true. But Prince confirmed he was dealng with some serious personal issues right around that time.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 16, 2019, 09:41:07 PM
So why should we care that this guy may have slept with a teammate’s wife years after he was on the Brewers?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on December 16, 2019, 11:20:56 PM
So why should we care that this guy may have slept with a teammate’s wife years after he was on the Brewers?

I don't care much that the teammate was a former brewer. His actions, if true, just make it harder for me to cheer for him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on December 16, 2019, 11:39:40 PM
Sports fans love few things more than a "Play A is sleeping with Player B's wife" rumor.

By far, the best was the Yankees' Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich trading wives in 1972. Actually, I'm selling this short -- they traded entire families, including pets!

Peterson and the former Mrs. Kekich are STILL married, believe it or not. Kekich and the former Mrs. Peterson are no longer a couple.

The former teammates haven't spoken to each other in years.

As you might imagine, this was quite a scandal in 1972. There has been talk of a movie being made, but it hasn't happened yet.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 17, 2019, 05:04:55 AM
I don't care much that the teammate was a former brewer. His actions, if true, just make it harder for me to cheer for him.

Ewe don't have many to cheer four den, aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 17, 2019, 07:04:09 AM
I don't care much that the teammate was a former brewer. His actions, if true, just make it harder for me to cheer for him.

Oh.  I guess I'm not interested in worrying about a purity test for the people I cheer for. 


Ewe don't have many to cheer four den, aina?

Exactly.  Humans do dumb and immoral things.  Athletes are human.  Ergo...
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 17, 2019, 10:22:06 AM
I always thought Avi's swing was very, very smooth.  Maybe moving him to Miller Park will work wonders.
I'm not a MIL fan, but did find the move a little strange; seems like their needs are 1B (Braun?) 3B, and SP.  The OF is getting crowded.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on December 17, 2019, 10:53:32 AM
Oh.  I guess I'm not interested in worrying about a purity test for the people I cheer for. 


Exactly.  Humans do dumb and immoral things.  Athletes are human.  Ergo...

It's a bit different for me when it's the assumption that an athlete has done bad things vs. actual information being out there.

Anyways, I was just making a passing comment that he'd be tougher to cheer for. I still hope he rakes in Milwaukee.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2019, 09:51:47 PM
By far, the best was the Yankees' Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich trading wives in 1972. Actually, I'm selling this short -- they traded entire families, including pets!

Peterson and the former Mrs. Kekich are STILL married, believe it or not. Kekich and the former Mrs. Peterson are no longer a couple.

The former teammates haven't spoken to each other in years.

As you might imagine, this was quite a scandal in 1972. There has been talk of a movie being made, but it hasn't happened yet.

Kekich and the former Mrs. Peterson weren't a couple for very long.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 17, 2019, 09:55:55 PM
If they can add another bat, the Reds just might be the favorite in the NL Central next year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 17, 2019, 09:56:53 PM
If they can add another bat, the Reds just might be the favorite in the NL Central next year.

Heard the same thing last offseason.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 17, 2019, 10:11:07 PM
Heard the same thing last offseason.

Really?  I certainly never did.  Hard not to like their pitching.  Castillo-Gray-Bauer-Miley- DeScalfini is a pretty good 1-5.  They had trouble in the pen last year, but I'd expect Iglesias to be better this season. 

They have also added Moustakas.  Another bat makes them scary I'd say.  Who knows if it'll happen.  But they'll be better.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 18, 2019, 11:13:43 AM
Really?  I certainly never did.  Hard not to like their pitching.  Castillo-Gray-Bauer-Miley- DeScalfini is a pretty good 1-5.  They had trouble in the pen last year, but I'd expect Iglesias to be better this season. 

They have also added Moustakas.  Another bat makes them scary I'd say.  Who knows if it'll happen.  But they'll be better.

Ageed - nobody that I know of had them as favorites in the NL Central last year. I wouldn’t put that mantle on them in 2020 either but they’ll (on paper) be better. Long time until April, but right now the Cubs, Brewers, Cardinals and Pirates look like they’ll be worse.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 18, 2019, 11:24:34 AM
PECOTA had the Reds as a .500 team before last season
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D074XZSWwAEvxfm?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 18, 2019, 07:00:13 PM
The Yankee's new ace has cut his hair and shaved.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 18, 2019, 07:07:26 PM
The Yankee's new ace has cut his hair and shaved.

Small price to pay for more than a 200K per inning pitched.  IF he can pitch 190 innings per season for 9 years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 19, 2019, 09:35:20 AM
Brewers are apparently close to signing Justin Smoak.  Not sure where he fits exactly.  He was good a couple of years ago, maybe he is just a lightning in a bottle signing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 19, 2019, 09:40:35 AM
Brewers are apparently close to signing Justin Smoak.  Not sure where he fits exactly.  He was good a couple of years ago, maybe he is just a lightning in a bottle signing.


There's your lefty platoon at first with Braun.  Goodbye Eric Thames.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 19, 2019, 09:48:31 AM

There's your lefty platoon at first with Braun.  Goodbye Eric Thames.

You've gotta be right, but Braun hits RHP better than Smoak.  Maybe a platoon with Braun/Avi depending on matchup and Braun floats between LF and 1B.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 19, 2019, 10:01:08 AM

There's your lefty platoon at first with Braun.  Goodbye Eric Thames.

Smoak is a switch hitter, btw.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 19, 2019, 11:32:19 AM
You've gotta be right, but Braun hits RHP better than Smoak.
To be fair, almost everyone hits RHP better than Justin Smoak.  If they Brewers can use the $25M off the books to sign Donaldson, the line-up will look A LOT better than it does now.

Cain - CF
Yelich - RF
Hiura - 2b
Smoak/Braun - 1b
Garcia/Braun - LF
Narvaez - C
Urias - 3b
Arcia - SS
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 19, 2019, 11:49:49 AM
To be fair, almost everyone hits RHP better than Justin Smoak.  If they Brewers can use the $25M off the books to sign Donaldson, the line-up will look A LOT better than it does now.

Cain - CF
Yelich - RF
Hiura - 2b
Smoak/Braun - 1b
Garcia/Braun - LF
Narvaez - C
Urias - 3b
Arcia - SS

That is certainly true.  Is there any indication they are involved with Donaldson?  The teams I've heard linked to him for the most part are the Nats and Braves.  The Brewers seem to be shopping in the used car lot.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 19, 2019, 11:56:09 AM
You've gotta be right, but Braun hits RHP better than Smoak.  Maybe a platoon with Braun/Avi depending on matchup and Braun floats between LF and 1B.

Good thought.


Smoak is a switch hitter, btw.

Thank you.  Wasn't aware.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lighthouse 84 on December 19, 2019, 01:57:39 PM
I hope the third time's the charm for Gio and the Sox. 

https://670thescore.radio.com/white-sox-agree-sign-gio-gonzalez-cheslor-cuthbert?fbclid=IwAR0gyC_sEzwB62_TpyysYN4hiE9CIdAPGnRVksrEpj3M41c4bsub27JaSEA
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on December 19, 2019, 02:01:10 PM
You've gotta be right, but Braun hits RHP better than Smoak.  Maybe a platoon with Braun/Avi depending on matchup and Braun floats between LF and 1B.

This is similar to how I thought Avi would be splitting ABs in left in a platoon-lite with Gamel, but Gamel, though left handed, hits LHP significantly better than he hits RHP, so his reverse platoon splits confuses matters :/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on December 19, 2019, 02:14:41 PM
Its worth noting that the thing that Stearns' signings this offseason seem to have in common are (for this environment) low strikeout rates.  None of Avi, Smoak, Sogard, or even Healy for his low OBP come with huge strikeout percentages.  Looks like Stearns is betting on a return of the old baseball and a regression to more typical power numbers.  If HRs drop, relying totally on three true outcomes is a less successful stragtegy.  If power is down in 2020, the way Stearns is constructing this lineup might look genius.  It will be an interesting moneyball type season in MKE.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 19, 2019, 02:28:59 PM
White Sox sign Gio Gonzalez.
Terms not yet released.

Good if this is as a #4/5 starter. Nothing more than that, I hope.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 19, 2019, 02:39:46 PM
Its worth noting that the thing that Stearns' signings this offseason seem to have in common are (for this environment) low strikeout rates.  None of Avi, Smoak, Sogard, or even Healy for his low OBP come with huge strikeout percentages.  Looks like Stearns is betting on a return of the old baseball and a regression to more typical power numbers.  If HRs drop, relying totally on three true outcomes is a less successful stragtegy.  If power is down in 2020, the way Stearns is constructing this lineup might look genius.  It will be an interesting moneyball type season in MKE.

He also may be relying on power coming from playing inside Miller Park.  Smoak, Avisail, and Healy all have power.

I think with the years that better offensive players are getting, Milwaukee isn't going to land/resign those guys, so hopefully find some guys who can get on base around Yeli and Keston and let them carry the load offensively.

Would love to see them sign a Kuechel or Ryu to pair with Woody at the top of the rotation and then add some middle relief (knowing Knebel is coming back at the back end of the bullpen) and turn the pitching into the strength of the team with two studs in the middle of the lineup.  But I doubt we get that top of the rotation starter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 19, 2019, 04:47:27 PM
White Sox sign Gio Gonzalez.
Terms not yet released.

Good if this is as a #4/5 starter. Nothing more than that, I hope.

Can't verify, but I heard 1 year, 5 million. So reasonable. Hope this isn't all there is, though.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUfan12 on December 19, 2019, 10:41:42 PM
Gio is a perfect 3/4 starter. Good clubhouse guy and will go out there and battle. If it's 1/5M I'm surprised the Brewers didn't offer.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 20, 2019, 05:07:33 PM
Can't verify, but I heard 1 year, 5 million. So reasonable. Hope this isn't all there is, though.

Word is $4.5 million for 2020, with up to $1 million in additional incentives
$7 million team option for 2021, with $500K buyout.
Seems fair.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 21, 2019, 11:03:46 AM
Pretty sure eye kan pitch 5 innin's and throw a 81 mph fastball two.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on December 21, 2019, 11:10:01 AM
Pretty sure eye kan pitch 5 innin's and throw a 81 mph fastball two.

Tinkin' yu kan knot.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on December 21, 2019, 04:16:22 PM
Tigers pick up Cron and Schoop.    I see both as stop gaps, but they have got to hit better than what Detroit had last year.    Maybe the Tigers get to 50 wins. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 21, 2019, 06:54:39 PM
Jeff Passan is reporting Dallas Keuchel to the White Sox.

If true ...

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileDirectFritillarybutterfly-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on December 21, 2019, 07:26:31 PM
Tigers pick up Cron and Schoop.    I see both as stop gaps, but they have got to hit better than what Detroit had last year.    Maybe the Tigers get to 50 wins.

CJ will look like an All Star for two weeks, then a minor leaguer for a month, followed by an all star.  Drove me crazy.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 21, 2019, 09:18:25 PM
Sox get Keuchel for 3 years; option for 4th.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2019, 09:32:32 PM
Sox get Keuchel for 3 years; option for 4th.

Was hoping for Wheeler/Keuchel instead of Keuchel/Gonzalez but it’s a big improvement over Nova/Covey.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 21, 2019, 10:13:18 PM
Sox need a bat and reliever still. It’ll be very interesting to see what they do with Andrew Vaughn.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 21, 2019, 10:31:54 PM
Sox need a bat and reliever still. It’ll be very interesting to see what they do with Andrew Vaughn.



Assign him to Winston Salem?  It'd have to be something huge to move him I'd think.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 21, 2019, 10:32:18 PM
Jeff Passan is reporting Dallas Keuchel to the White Sox.

If true ...

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileDirectFritillarybutterfly-size_restricted.gif)

Absolutely.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 21, 2019, 11:24:04 PM
Sox need a bat and reliever still. It’ll be very interesting to see what they do with Andrew Vaughn.

Why do anything with Vaughn?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on December 22, 2019, 12:29:45 AM
Why do anything with Vaughn?

My gut feeling is they’re making a trade soon.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 22, 2019, 12:51:31 PM
My gut feeling is they’re making a trade soon.

I could be off base on this, but I would think, to trade Vaughn, it would have to be a pretty high level player.  There have been three mentioned and I'm not sure they make sense. 

Lindor:  Love him.  I'd trade anyone not Luis Robert to get him.  Vaughn, Madrigal ++.  The issue here, is that I'm not entirely sure that the Indians would trade him in the division.  You also have service time issues.  Lindor is a free agent in 2 years.  While the Sox will be better this year, and can likely contend in a soft AL Central, he may not be the best fit time line wise for the Sox, especially giving up 12+ years of control of two top 30 (ish) prospects.

Arenado:  Again, elite talent makes any team better so you want him.  I have been in Arenado's fan club here posting for years.  He is again tricky, because while he is signed long term, he has an opt out after 2 seasons, he is also signed at a market rate contract.  So you're paying him big bucks, trading elite talent, and he is able to walk right in the middle of what should be your competitive window.

Bryant: Same old song and dance.  Bryant brings less to the table defensively than the other two, but was back to being that middle of the order presence last season.  Best case scenario is that he is a free agent in 2 years, possibly next year (though I would be shocked if that is how his hearing turned out).

While all of these guys make your team better, and a lot better, timing wise I'm not sure you'd part with the players you'd have to trade to make it work ( I would expect all three of these guys would cost Vaughn/Madrigal/ ++).  The other issue (and albeit a minor one) is position.  The Sox are kind of set at SS and 3B.  You certainly move Anderson for Lindor and Moncada for Arenado (though Moncada graded out top 5 at 3B last season)  You could easily move either to 2B, or even RF.  Bryant is a trickier fit.  Moncada is likely a better fit at 3B, and neither Bryant or Eloy work in RF.  They could split time in LF/DH/1B with Abreu (obviously he wouldn't play OF at all).

Now they wouldn't necessarily need Madrigal if they move Moncada or Anderson to 2B, and they could make the move, but is taking a somewhat long shot swipe at the next two years worth sacrificing players or even just trade capital for the following 4?  I kind of don't think so.  Neither Lindor, Arenado or Bryant make the Sox better than the Yankees over the next two years?  The Astros?  The Dodgers?  Nats?  Braves?  A move like that has to be with a WS in mind.  I think the answer to some of those is probably yes, but a couple very notable nos as well.

Maybe someone else I haven't thought about or heard about is on the market (Snell?? TB is always willing to deal) but I have a hard time seeing a great fit.  Obviously I want the team to get better and to make the playoffs and make a run.  But we've had to sit through the swamp of this rebuild.  Don't deep 6 it by getting impatient now. 

I'm not against a trade with Vaughn or Madrigal (or anyone else not named Luis Robert)  or even both, but it has to be someone that makes the team better for more than just a year or two.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 22, 2019, 01:40:00 PM
Agree with pretty much everything buck said.
One name he didn't mention is Mookie Betts, but I'd give up a prospect like Madrigal or Vaughn only if Betts signed an extension as part of the trade.

Speaking of the BoSox, rumor had it they wanted Madrigal AND Vaughn for Price and Benedetti. Woof.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on December 22, 2019, 01:50:13 PM
Agree with pretty much everything buck said.
One name he didn't mention is Mookie Betts, but I'd give up a prospect like Madrigal or Vaughn only if Betts signed an extension as part of the trade.

Speaking of the BoSox, rumor had it they wanted Madrigal AND Vaughn for Price and Benedetti. Woof.
I don't think you understand exactly how good Mookie Betts is.  I wouldn't trade him for both those guys if I knew I could sign him to a 8-10 year contract, let alone throw in Benintendi.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 22, 2019, 02:03:53 PM
I don't think you understand exactly how good Mookie Betts is.  I wouldn't trade him for both those guys if I knew I could sign him to a 8-10 year contract, let alone throw in Benintendi.

I don't think you read my post correctly 

Betts is awesome, but as awesome as he is, I'm not going to give up a top prospect for a rental.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 22, 2019, 06:34:46 PM
Agree with pretty much everything buck said.
One name he didn't mention is Mookie Betts, but I'd give up a prospect like Madrigal or Vaughn only if Betts signed an extension as part of the trade.

Speaking of the BoSox, rumor had it they wanted Madrigal AND Vaughn for Price and Benedetti. Woof.

Yeah, I heard that rumored ask.  It is insane.  Here take our salary dump and give us top prospects!  What?  But I guess you have nothing to lose by asking.  Except maybe you scare away a suitor. 

I agree on Betts too.  Obviously a game changing talent.  Right there with Lindor (and a couple others) in the conversation for best non Trout player.  Doesn't make sense for the Sox to trade for him right now.  Especially with 1 year of control.  I'd say they could just sign him next year, but well, White Sox, so that isn't really a consideration.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2019, 12:08:48 AM
Ryu reportedly to Toronto - 4 years, 80 million.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on December 23, 2019, 09:26:03 AM
Ryu reportedly to Toronto - 4 years, 80 million.

I was told this would be an incentive-laden contract.

Mr. Boras has done nicely for himself this offseason
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 25, 2019, 07:35:28 PM
White Sox reportedly signing Encarnacion.
1 year/$12 million.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on December 25, 2019, 08:55:34 PM
I was told this would be an incentive-laden contract.

Mr. Boras has done nicely for himself this offseason

My guess is that in 3 years, this will be seen as the worst contract given out this year. Not because of Ryu's abilities, but because of injury.

In the last 7 years, he has pitched over 126 innings only 3 times. Should he be expected to do what he has never done before - pitch 3 years of 180 innings?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 25, 2019, 10:18:42 PM
White Sox reportedly signing Encarnacion.
1 year/$12 million.

Solid. Sox should score a lot of runs in 2020..
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 26, 2019, 09:39:34 AM
The White Sox have become relevant again, and that is exciting for the city.

Can't imagine McCann-- in a walk year following an All-Star appearance, is too excited about Grandal taking his catching reps and EE platooning at 1B.

I think I'd rather they go after Puig, who can actually play a position.  But, it's hard to say the Sox aren't trying, which is all you can hope for.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 26, 2019, 09:45:04 AM
The White Sox have become relevant again, and that is exciting for the city.

Yeah...heard that before. Believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 26, 2019, 10:38:13 AM
Up-to-date HOF Results:

Public Ballots:   59
Anonymous Ballots:   3
% of Ballots Known:   15.0%
"Last Updated: 12/26/2019 at 08:15 PST"   
Derek Jeter   100.0%
Larry Walker   85.5%
Curt Schilling   85.5%
Barry Bonds   75.8%
Roger Clemens   75.8%
Omar Vizquel   46.8%
Manny Ramirez   43.5%
Scott Rolen   40.3%
Todd Helton   35.5%
Jeff Kent           32.3%
Gary Sheffield   30.6%
Billy Wagner   29.0%
Andruw Jones   22.6%
Sammy Sosa   21.0%
Andy Pettitte   11.3%
Bobby Abreu   8.1%
Eric Chávez   0.0%
Rafael Furcal   0.0%
Jason Giambi   0.0%
Paul Konerko   0.0%
Cliff Lee           0.0%
Alfonso Soriano   0.0%
Josh Beckett   0.0%
Heath Bell           0.0%
Adam Dunn   0.0%
Chone Figgins   0.0%
Raúl Ibañez   0.0%
Carlos Peña   0.0%
Brad Penny   0.0%
JJ Putz           0.0%
Brian Roberts   0.0%
José Valverde   0.0%
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 26, 2019, 03:26:32 PM
Yeah...heard that before. Believe it when I see it.

Perfectly reasonably to be skeptical, and the Sox have been offseason champs before which led to nothing, but I love the changes they've made.  And while I tend to be an optimist, I think there is reason.

First of all, the guys they are replacing were pretty terrible.  Just the conglomeration they had in RF, DH and backup C combined for about -7 WAR.  The guys they had in the 4/5 spots in the rotation combined for about another -3.  The Sox have improved all these areas, not with replacement level guys, but with positive contributors.  Real damn MLB players.  Guys that amassed about 10 WAR last year.  I get that this isn't exactly how WAR works, but that's about a 20 game swing right there. 

They also have depth.  On the field and in the rotation.  While on opening day they will probably lineup something like Giolito-Keuchel-Gio-Lopez-Cease.  They have Kopech coming back.  He has the potential to be a top end starter in all of the MLB.  I'd say his ceiling is even higher than Giolito's, and he was 6th in Cy Young voting as a 24 year old.  They have Rodon coming back over the summer.  They have some other high end prospects coming back from injuries.  Cease making a jump wouldn't be a shock, Lopez being much more serviceable wouldn't be a surprise. 

They also have 2 of the best prospects in the game ready to break through.  Now, they have the normal prospect caveats, but for comparison, Eloy as a 21 year old in AAA OPSed an impressive .996.  Robert as a 21 year old at those same levels OPSed .974.  And he has elite speed and can play, by all accounts a ++ CF.

They also have Nick Madrigal coming, who in his first full pro season hit .311 and struck out 16 times in 532 PA.  He doesn't have much pop, but he can hit, run and again, by all accounts play one heck of a 2B. 

This is the first time in a while that it has been fun to be a Sox fan.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 27, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
The White Sox have become relevant again, and that is exciting for the city.

Can't imagine McCann-- in a walk year following an All-Star appearance, is too excited about Grandal taking his catching reps and EE platooning at 1B.

I think I'd rather they go after Puig, who can actually play a position.  But, it's hard to say the Sox aren't trying, which is all you can hope for.
Maybe they are going after Puig, as well.

Mark Feinsand

Verified account
 
@Feinsand
 22h22 hours ago
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According to sources, the White Sox remain engaged with the RF market despite this month's trade for Nomar Mazara. Yasiel Puig appears to be a primary target.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 27, 2019, 03:26:28 PM
Maybe they are going after Puig, as well.

Mark Feinsand

Verified account
 
@Feinsand
 22h22 hours ago
More
According to sources, the White Sox remain engaged with the RF market despite this month's trade for Nomar Mazara. Yasiel Puig appears to be a primary target.

I have to say, I'd be surprised.  Mazara is fine for your 7th or 8th hitter especially if he is being platooned with Garcia.  Puig probably isn't worth the trouble, and really, I'm not sure why he'd want to go to a team where his role is the short side of a platoon. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on December 27, 2019, 03:37:48 PM
I have to say, I'd be surprised.  Mazara is fine for your 7th or 8th hitter especially if he is being platooned with Garcia.  Puig probably isn't worth the trouble, and really, I'm not sure why he'd want to go to a team where his role is the short side of a platoon.

That would seem like an unnecessary move. Would prefer Hahn focus whatever resources he has left on the bullpen.

+100 on your previous post. No guarantees that what the Sox have assembled ends up winning anything, but this is the first time since the late 80s Sox fans have had legit reason to be optimistic about long-term success built primarily around a core of players who've come up through their system.
 2020 success may depend a lot on guys like Grandal, Keuchel and EE, but longer term it'll be because Moncada, Robert, Eloy, Madrigal, Vaughn, Kopech, Gio, Cease, etc. are who we hope they are
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 27, 2019, 05:09:09 PM
That would seem like an unnecessary move. Would prefer Hahn focus whatever resources he has left on the bullpen.

+100 on your previous post. No guarantees that what the Sox have assembled ends up winning anything, but this is the first time since the late 80s Sox fans have had legit reason to be optimistic about long-term success built primarily around a core of players who've come up through their system.
 2020 success may depend a lot on guys like Grandal, Keuchel and EE, but longer term it'll be because Moncada, Robert, Eloy, Madrigal, Vaughn, Kopech, Gio, Cease, etc. are who we hope they are

Totally agree. I give Hahn credit for executing a successful rebuild. And I give Kenny and Jerry some credit for staying out of his way.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 27, 2019, 06:42:10 PM
Totally agree. I give Hahn credit for executing a successful rebuild
Little early to be calling the rebuild successful.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on December 27, 2019, 10:06:45 PM
Little early to be calling the rebuild successful.

I could be wrong, but I think what he means is they haven't blatantly blown it.  They didn't trade Nick Madrigal for David Price.  They didn't trade Luis Robert for Starling Marte.  They didn't trade Andrew Vaughn for an overpriced, past his prime middle reliever (I'm looking at you Rockies...).

The rebuild hasn't been perfect.  Their drafting has still been just so-so.  Madrigal looks like a hit, Vaughn should be, but it is early.  Collins?  Who knows.  Burger hasn't played in 2 years, expecting him making AAA looks like a stretch.  Fulmer is at best a middle reliever.  Burdi looks like the rare guy that may not return after TJ surgery.  Their 2nd round picks look like long shots to make it, though they did turn one into Mazara. 

Even with that though, they look like they could be set up to be competitive for years.  They haven't been for a long time.  I can't wait for opening day, or more appropriately, Luis Robert day.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on December 30, 2019, 09:43:51 AM
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/why-small-market-excuses-for-not-spending-from-teams-like-the-indians-and-brewers-dont-hold-up/?fbclid=IwAR1FoS3VpkT5I2q2rZxXIJjBAGny1rONHbfasE2jiBnlnFGGQ6sw77LiZYA
 (https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/why-small-market-excuses-for-not-spending-from-teams-like-the-indians-and-brewers-dont-hold-up/?fbclid=IwAR1FoS3VpkT5I2q2rZxXIJjBAGny1rONHbfasE2jiBnlnFGGQ6sw77LiZYA)
Why small-market excuses for not spending, from teams like the Indians and Brewers, don't hold up

"To different extents, the Brewers and Indians are choosing to do less than they should be doing. And, yes, it's entirely a matter of choice. Don't let them tell you otherwise."
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2019, 08:04:36 PM
Little early to be calling the rebuild successful.

Moncada, Kopech, Jimenez, Cease, Giolito and Lopez for Sale, Quintana and Eaton. Luis Robert and Madrigal. Vaughn. Grandal. And decent stop gaps while the core matures (Keuchel, Encarnación, Mazara). I like all of these moves - some a lot. As long as they stay the course I’m confident they’ll be successful. But you’re right, only time will tell.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 02, 2020, 01:19:33 PM
Luis Robert signs an extension with the Sox.  6 years, 2 option years.  He will be up opening day.  No service time manipulation here. 

Seems great for the Sox, and for Robert.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 02, 2020, 01:23:30 PM
Luis Robert signs an extension with the Sox.  6 years, 2 option years.  He will be up opening day.  No service time manipulation here. 

Seems great for the Sox, and for Robert.

IF it all pans out, White Sox are set up for a long run:

@JeffPassan: The White Sox control players through the following years:

Luis Robert: 2027
Eloy Jimenez: 2026
Dylan Cease: 2025
Tim Anderson: 2024
Michael Kopech: 2024
Lucas Giolito: 2023
Yoan Moncada: 2023
Yasmani Grandal: 2023
Dallas Keuchel: 2023
Madrigal, Vaughn, Dunning: at least 2026.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 02, 2020, 01:35:30 PM
One thing the Sox have done very well, maybe as good as any organization in the four major sports, is lock up young talent to team friendly contracts. The back end of these contracts for guys like Eloy and Robert make the reward far outweigh the risk at the dollars involved.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 02, 2020, 01:42:20 PM
Luis Robert signs an extension with the Sox.  6 years, 2 option years.  He will be up opening day.  No service time manipulation here. 

Seems great for the Sox, and for Robert.

Wowowow. Such an interesting contract.  At first blush, it strikes me as plenty fair, if a bit team friendly by current CBA standards.  But in addition to the normal reasons that a prospect signs a deal before ever seeing an MLB pitch, have to imagine that uncertainty in the new CBA played a significant role here, aina?  If so, the Sox are smart for leveraging that to get some cost certainty.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 02, 2020, 03:08:10 PM
Domingo German gets a 63 game suspension.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 02, 2020, 03:12:03 PM
Domingo German gets a 63 game suspension.

It was an 81 game suspension going back to last season.  63 additional games this season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 02, 2020, 03:15:31 PM
One thing the Sox have done very well, maybe as good as any organization in the four major sports, is lock up young talent to team friendly contracts. The back end of these contracts for guys like Eloy and Robert make the reward far outweigh the risk at the dollars involved.

This has definitely been Hahn's greatest strength with the Sox.  The contract extensions for Sale, Q, and Eaton enabled the team to bring in more value in trade for those guys.  Due to that, the core they have in place now is apparently quite a bit stronger than the core they started with including those 3 guys. 

The extensions for TA, Eloy and Robert look to be great moves as well.  Hopefully they are talking to Moncada right now.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on January 02, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
Have to think that the MLBPA grits it's teeth with these deals and is keeping inventory. I'd wager the argument is that this is some form or manifestation of service time manipulation (sign or we'll reserve the right to delay the window for your earning potential). It's not explicit, but it doesn't really need to be. He makes too much to keep down (though they could send him down if needed), so their fates are tied.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 02, 2020, 05:01:48 PM
@SlangsOnSports

Luis Robert is the 5th player to receive a contract extension with 0 days of MLB service time in his career at the time.

The others:
Evan White
Eloy Jiménez
Scott Kingery
Jon Singleton

That makes the White Sox the only team to hand out 2 such extensions -- to Robert & Jiménez.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 02, 2020, 08:40:47 PM
Have to think that the MLBPA grits it's teeth with these deals and is keeping inventory. I'd wager the argument is that this is some form or manifestation of service time manipulation (sign or we'll reserve the right to delay the window for your earning potential). It's not explicit, but it doesn't really need to be. He makes too much to keep down (though they could send him down if needed), so their fates are tied.

Hmmm.  I would think the union is at very least neutral on giving nearly 90 million to a guy that has never stepped on a MLB field before.  And when you look at the other 4 guys given deals like this (none to this level though), they seem to skew heavily to the players favor. 

There is a lot of risk in these deals for the team.  If the player flames out for any reason, the team still is on the hook for 60ish million dollars.  If the player is decent, they still end up overpaying for them.  The players don't have to go through renewal and arbitration.  For example, in his first 3 seasons, Mike Trout made about 2 million.  Eloy made 1.8 last year.  Now obviously the players trade some possible huge numbers in arbitration and in most cases a year of free agency, but for a lot of these guys, guaranteed millions are worth more than possible money 5 years down the road.  The only way the team comes out ahead is if the player becomes a star.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 03, 2020, 10:49:48 AM
Have to think that the MLBPA grits it's teeth with these deals and is keeping inventory. I'd wager the argument is that this is some form or manifestation of service time manipulation (sign or we'll reserve the right to delay the window for your earning potential). It's not explicit, but it doesn't really need to be. He makes too much to keep down (though they could send him down if needed), so their fates are tied.

One way of looking at it is that between his initial bonus and this deal, Robert could earn up to $114 million by the time he turns 29.
In comparison, Kris Bryant will have earned about $60 million (assuming arbitration forecasts are accurate) at the same age.
Seems it would be hard for the MLBPA to argue that this is bad for the player, especially when it avoids the service time nonsense that affected Bryant.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 03, 2020, 01:09:11 PM
I also wonder if in the short term, if the Sox decide to go back into the international signing route, if there will be a positive impact with the Jimenez and Robert deals with guys deciding who to sign with. The new CBA may eventually change all the international signings into a draft, so it may have zero impact.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 03, 2020, 04:58:58 PM
I also wonder if in the short term, if the Sox decide to go back into the international signing route, if there will be a positive impact with the Jimenez and Robert deals with guys deciding who to sign with. The new CBA may eventually change all the international signings into a draft, so it may have zero impact.

Cuban phenom Oscar Colas just defected and will likely wait to sign until the next J2 signing period.  That is likely how the Sox spend their next signing period. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 03, 2020, 08:54:20 PM
So apparently Cespedes busted his ankle in some sort of interaction with a wild boar.  Crazy.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 06, 2020, 05:19:26 PM
Nats have signed a bunch of guys in the last week or so.  Will Harris, Daniel Hudson, Starlin Castro, Eric Thames, and Asdrubal Cabrera.

Interesting moves.  Seems like they did this instead of meeting Donaldson's 110 asking price.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 06, 2020, 05:24:54 PM
Reds sign Shogo Akiyama.
The Reds at least seem like they're trying, and the NL Central might be there for the taking given the departures, and potential departures, elsewhere in the division.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 06, 2020, 05:39:50 PM
Nats have signed a bunch of guys in the last week or so.  Will Harris, Daniel Hudson, Starlin Castro, Eric Thames, and Asdrubal Cabrera.

Interesting moves.  Seems like they did this instead of meeting Donaldson's 110 asking price.

Seem like pretty good moves. You need solid players surrounding your stars.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 06, 2020, 09:09:26 PM
Seem like pretty good moves. You need solid players surrounding your stars.

Yeah, it isn't Rendon, but solid moves.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 07, 2020, 04:57:26 PM
White Sox add Steve Cishek.
1 years/$6 million with a $6 million option year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2020, 05:38:25 AM
White Sox add Steve Cishek.
1 years/$6 million with a $6 million option year.

Good. You Sox fans can watch him walk the bases loaded now.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 08, 2020, 10:24:20 AM
Good. You Sox fans can watch him walk the bases loaded now.
I know you shouldn't put extra emphasis on one outing, BUT..
that game in San Diego in September was so very, very bad.  The Cubs were tied for the second Wild Card, Bryant and Heyward each hit two HR, the Cubs came all the way back, and Cishek loaded the bases before walking Margot on 4 pitches in the 10th.  I stayed up to watch the whole thing, and then couldn't sleep because I was so pissed. 

He appeared in 149 other games for the Cubs the last two seasons, but that one seems to stick out.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 08, 2020, 12:30:15 PM
Just another reminder of why extending netting down the foul lines is a good idea.

https://sports.yahoo.com/astros-game-foul-ball-brain-damage-toddler-family-021329952.html
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 08, 2020, 12:36:55 PM
Just another reminder of why extending netting down the foul lines is a good idea.

https://sports.yahoo.com/astros-game-foul-ball-brain-damage-toddler-family-021329952.html

"MLBPA executive director Tony Clark also called for extended netting in the aftermath of the death of a fan struck by a foul ball at Dodger Stadium."

Interesting because as per Cheeks, this would prevent them from diving into the stands and making great plays! 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 10, 2020, 10:39:04 AM
The trade with the Cards and Rays is so interesting. There is a lot of speculation that it was the precursor to an Arenado move.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 13, 2020, 01:05:36 PM
Sign-stealing penalties have come down, per Ken Rosenthal:

BREAKING: Per sources, MLB’s penalties for #Astros include:
*One-year suspensions for GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch.
*Losses of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in both 2020 and ‘21.
*A fine of $5M.
* MLB has placed former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman on its ineligible list.
*Discipline for Red Sox manager Alex Cora, the Houston bench coach in 2017, will be determined after MLB completes its investigation of Boston.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: TallTitan34 on January 13, 2020, 01:23:21 PM
Sign-stealing penalties have come down, per Ken Rosenthal:

BREAKING: Per sources, MLB’s penalties for #Astros include:
*One-year suspensions for GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch.
*Losses of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in both 2020 and ‘21.
*A fine of $5M.
* MLB has placed former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman on its ineligible list.
*Discipline for Red Sox manager Alex Cora, the Houston bench coach in 2017, will be determined after MLB completes its investigation of Boston.

Huge penalties!  I expected nothing after the Cardinals got slapped on the wrist for hacking the Astros.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 13, 2020, 01:29:03 PM
Sign-stealing penalties have come down, per Ken Rosenthal:

BREAKING: Per sources, MLB’s penalties for #Astros include:
*One-year suspensions for GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch.
*Losses of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in both 2020 and ‘21.
*A fine of $5M.
* MLB has placed former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman on its ineligible list.
*Discipline for Red Sox manager Alex Cora, the Houston bench coach in 2017, will be determined after MLB completes its investigation of Boston.


GOOD!!!  TYRANNICAL!  LOVE IT!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: lawdog77 on January 13, 2020, 01:37:02 PM
Sign-stealing penalties have come down, per Ken Rosenthal:

BREAKING: Per sources, MLB’s penalties for #Astros include:
*One-year suspensions for GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch.
*Losses of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in both 2020 and ‘21.
*A fine of $5M.
* MLB has placed former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman on its ineligible list.
*Discipline for Red Sox manager Alex Cora, the Houston bench coach in 2017, will be determined after MLB completes its investigation of Boston.
ncaa...take notes
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 13, 2020, 01:45:17 PM
Sign-stealing penalties have come down, per Ken Rosenthal:

BREAKING: Per sources, MLB%u2019s penalties for #Astros include:
*One-year suspensions for GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch.
*Losses of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in both 2020 and %u201821.
*A fine of $5M.
* MLB has placed former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman on its ineligible list.
*Discipline for Red Sox manager Alex Cora, the Houston bench coach in 2017, will be determined after MLB completes its investigation of Boston.

Love it.  Kind of wish it were a bit more strict, but its solid. 

I bet Boston doesn't get out of this unscathed.  Well--- Cora anyways.

Hinch and Luhnow fired...
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on January 13, 2020, 02:13:22 PM
Disappointed in Hinch.  Seemes like a good guy, was involved with USA Baseball and coach training.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 13, 2020, 02:18:45 PM
Now being reported that the Astros have fired Hinch and Luhnow.

Will Alex Cora survive?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 13, 2020, 02:21:32 PM
ncaa...take notes

Hope you aren't holding your breath.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 13, 2020, 02:24:01 PM
Hinch and Luhnow are the fall guys, hopefully Cora gets a multi year suspension.

Seems like MLB probably knew both Hinch and Luhnow would be terminated, hence the one season suspension.

No players mentioned, seems like someone on the field should have been complicit here.

Draft pick losses are the key here.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: lawdog77 on January 13, 2020, 02:26:54 PM

Draft pick losses are the key here.
Serious question. How big are first and second round draft picks  in MLB versus NBA and NFL? As in, how many 1st and second round picks make it to the major leagues? I know farm systems are important for most teams, but how much?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 13, 2020, 02:36:06 PM
Serious question. How big are first and second round draft picks  in MLB versus NBA and NFL? As in, how many 1st and second round picks make it to the major leagues? I know farm systems are important for most teams, but how much?

Not nearly as important. Most first-round picks make it to the majors, but the majority aren't impact players. About half  second-round picks make it, but again, not impact players.

Those odds vary dramatically depending on where a player is drafted. First-round picks can expect to reach the major leagues. First-round picks who don’t make it are the exception. From 1981 to 2010, 73 percent of first-round picks reached the majors. In 2004, only two of the 29 first-round picks who signed failed to make the majors—a 93 percent success rate that will be hard to beat.
But that success rate drops off quickly. By the second round, the rate of players who reach the majors dips to 51 percent. In the third round, 40 percent are eventually going to be major leaguers. From there it continues to steadily dip.


https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/how-many-mlb-draftees-make-it-to-the-majors/

https://community.fangraphs.com/success-rate-of-mlb-first-round-draft-picks-by-slot/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 13, 2020, 02:52:13 PM
ncaa...take notes

NCAA is an association of members....come on...you're a lawyer, you know the differences between the orgs are watermelons to chevy pickup trucks.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: lawdog77 on January 13, 2020, 03:10:10 PM
NCAA is an association of members....come on...you're a lawyer, you know the differences between the orgs are watermelons to chevy pickup trucks.
Unlike you, I don't know everything. But I do know that the NCAA could ban instiutions from post season bids and give coaches show causes. Some of these recent allegations, if true, deserve that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 13, 2020, 03:28:00 PM
Hinch and Luhnow are the fall guys, hopefully Cora gets a multi year suspension.

Seems like MLB probably knew both Hinch and Luhnow would be terminated, hence the one season suspension.

No players mentioned, seems like someone on the field should have been complicit here.

Draft pick losses are the key here.

They probably didn't want to open a can of worms with the MLBPA with a new CBA on the horizon. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 13, 2020, 03:30:05 PM
Serious question. How big are first and second round draft picks  in MLB versus NBA and NFL? As in, how many 1st and second round picks make it to the major leagues? I know farm systems are important for most teams, but how much?

They are more risky than the NFL or NBA, but that is still significant.  They also lose the pool money for the draft, which is also a big deal and can help teams later on in the draft. 

While the draft in any sport is a crap shoot, and moreso in baseball, the first round is still a team's best bet to secure an impact player.  The only thing that competes is the international market ( I would have loved to see Houston get hit here too...) but that is still risky as it usually means signing kids that are 16 or 17 years old.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on January 13, 2020, 04:37:22 PM
Huge penalties!  I expected nothing after the Cardinals got slapped on the wrist for hacking the Astros.

The Cardinals had to give up their top two draft picks, and were fined the maximum allowed at the time. Chris Correa was banned for life and went to prison.  The Astros seem to keep getting into these situations.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 13, 2020, 05:03:16 PM
A.J. Hinch, crossed the line
Luhnow gone, heavy fine
Draft picks lost, rings are not
Owner sad for getting caught
Crane denied part in team's
Making up the banging scheme
Taubman censured in the text
Cora, Beltran might be next

We didn't blame Mike Fiers.


I don't know how to embed tweets on scoop but this guy made my day with this:
Matt Sussman  🥌
‏@suss2hyphens
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on January 13, 2020, 05:09:27 PM
A.J. Hinch, crossed the line
Luhnow gone, heavy fine
Draft picks lost, rings are not
Owner sad for getting caught
Crane denied part in team's
Making up the banging scheme
Taubman censured in the text
Cora, Beltran might be next

We didn't blame Mike Fiers.


I don't know how to embed tweets on scoop but this guy made my day with this:
Matt Sussman  🥌
‏@suss2hyphens
He was always pitching but now he's bitching...
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 13, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
He was always pitching but now he's bitching...

Cannot throw a fastball
Put in a call to Rosenthal
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on January 13, 2020, 05:28:29 PM
Everybody thinks he sucks
just tryin' to make a couple bucks. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 13, 2020, 05:36:21 PM
They probably didn't want to open a can of worms with the MLBPA with a new CBA on the horizon.

I forgot where I read it this afternoon, but I believe I heard players were given immunity for their cooperation. If that's the case, I can see that making sense.

I agree with you on the international bonus pool money, I'd have liked to see them get the hammer there as well. My gut feeling is still that the international system will change drastically upon a new CBA. Also agree that that on the surface to some it doesn't seem like the draft picks may be that big a deal, but in MLB with their slotted allotment for draft picks, it certainly cripples them from the ability to over slot a guy now. They'd really have to hit on someone and have a prearranged agreement to get to round 3 now to make that happen.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2020, 08:42:03 PM
I bet Boston doesn't get out of this unscathed.

Then Stern and the Brewers?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 13, 2020, 08:49:05 PM
Then Stern and the Brewers?

Why?  Have the Brewers been accused of something?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on January 13, 2020, 08:55:09 PM
Why?  Have the Brewers been accused of something?

They’ve been accused but MLB has not found anything in any investigations.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 13, 2020, 08:56:00 PM
They’ve been accused but MLB has not found anything in any investigations.

Wow. Thanks. Must have missed that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on January 13, 2020, 09:06:47 PM
Then Stern and the Brewers?

I'll bet Nori Aoki was the culprit behind all of it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2020, 09:13:14 PM
Why?  Have the Brewers been accused of something?

Smoke from November...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brewcrewball.com/platform/amp/2019/11/14/20963825/milwaukee-brewers-mlb-sign-stealing-controversy-houston-astros

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 13, 2020, 09:21:33 PM
Wow. Thanks. Must have missed that.

I posted a few months ago.  Remember when Yellich took to Twitter to go after Yu Darvish?

https://www.bleachernation.com/cubs/2019/11/12/multiple-players-identify-brewers-as-among-the-most-egregious-electronic-sign-stealers/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on January 13, 2020, 09:22:52 PM
Wow. Thanks. Must have missed that.

Tried to find an article that talked about that but so far only saw it posted on a Brewers message board. Mentioned last year the Pirates and Cubs had complaints but was nothing. Not sure if that’s true at all, but thought I’d seen that a few places.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 13, 2020, 09:25:46 PM
I posted a few months ago.  Remember when Yellich took to Twitter to go after Yu Darvish?

https://www.bleachernation.com/cubs/2019/11/12/multiple-players-identify-brewers-as-among-the-most-egregious-electronic-sign-stealers/

Yeah when Yu insinuated Yeli was stealing signs from the Brewers bullpen by looking out at...the Cubs bullpen. Caught. No wonder Yeli was so damn good. His opponent is giving him their signs.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2020, 09:30:00 PM
There was rumored to be up to 8 teams under MLB investigation including the Astros, Red Sox, Orioles, Brewers with ex-Astros employees. I think MLB leaves it with the Astros and Red Sox but let's see.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/mlb/2020/01/13/houston-astros-cheating-punishment
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 13, 2020, 09:59:26 PM
There was rumored to be up to 8 teams under MLB investigation including the Astros, Red Sox, Orioles, Brewers with ex-Astros employees. I think MLB leaves it with the Astros and Red Sox but let's see.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/mlb/2020/01/13/houston-astros-cheating-punishment

Yeah, one guy mentioned but to say "thin" is being generous.  Just because someone used to work for the Astros and then with the Brewers isn't enough.

http://sportsmockery.com/2019/11/brewers-also-accused-of-cheating-like-the-astros/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on January 13, 2020, 11:17:18 PM
Maybe after all of this, the silver lining is we can drop the false pretenses and let Pete Rose into the HOF
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: houwarrior on January 14, 2020, 06:28:35 AM
Laughter from this Houston fan (my tear ducts shut down long ago)....as any Houston fan knows this is simply typical for us.

Consider in the last 24 hours:

1) the Texans choked off a 24-0 deficit to lose by 20...we draw on our memory of the Oilers in 1993 choking a 35-3 Bills lead ...but this one seemed worse. We liked Bum Phillips even in those Steeler Luv Ya Blue losses..we cant stand Bill Obrien. He is an immovable mud pit of mediocrity.

2) lifelong Astros fans ( since 1960) finally got their World Series win in 2017, and a statistically historical team falls just short in 2019....But wait ...shucks...from today on we are forever tainted cheaters, rightly so. We should have known ...the day after the WS parade in 2017, QB Deshaun Watson is out for the year ...ACL blowout in a thursday practice. A reminder from the gods...you are a Houston sports fan...no good goes unpunished.

3) every time UH football got good our coaches move on (Art Briles, Kevin Sumlin, Tom Herman) With pride we lure one with a Power 5 pedigree Dana Holverson only to watch him revert us to 4-8 with just one home win. Today our QB announced that... after shutting himself down mid season...he is going elsewhere.

Oh well just another typical 24 hour period in Houston sports fandom. 40 years for me now. Except for a window of Rockets in early 90s....this is our typical....So, why do folks keep moving here? If they like sports they deserve the warning.

Houston is a brutal town to be a sports fan.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: StillAWarrior on January 14, 2020, 07:31:19 AM
Except for a window of Rockets in early 90s....

Houston is a brutal town to be a sports fan.

Good thing Jordan took a couple years off.   ;)

/Not a Bulls fan
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 14, 2020, 09:06:56 AM
Maybe after all of this, the silver lining is we can drop the false pretenses and let Pete Rose into the HOF


Absolutely not
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 14, 2020, 10:17:32 AM
Houston cheats in '17; Cora and the Red Sox cheat in '18 (probably).
Recent World Series Winners:
2015: Royals
2016: Cubs
2017: Cubs again
2018: Still Cubs
2019: Nats

Once we find out Strasburg is part robot, the Cubs will be looking to defend their 5th title in a row.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 14, 2020, 10:30:15 AM
Houston cheats in '17; Cora and the Red Sox cheat in '18 (probably).
Recent World Series Winners:
2015: Royals
2016: Cubs
2017: Cubs again
2018: Still Cubs
2019: Nats

Once we find out Strasburg is part robot, the Cubs will be looking to defend their 5th title in a row.

Yeah but when you apply the domestic abuse penalty it's all the Royals.

The Dodgers, the biggest victims of the sign stealing also had a deal in place for Chapman before the Yankees traded for him, but killed the deal because of his situation.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 14, 2020, 10:45:18 AM
Yeah but when you apply the domestic abuse penalty it's all the Royals.

The Dodgers, the biggest victims of the sign stealing also had a deal in place for Chapman before the Yankees traded for him, but killed the deal because of his situation.
I guess LAD didn't get the memo on Julio Urias, (or Puig, for that matter).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: drewm88 on January 14, 2020, 11:36:36 AM
Penalties designed to come off as harsh, allow the Astros to make a clean break, and hope everyone forgets. Should have been much more.

Also, I understand the CBA and upcoming labor issues making the player immunity a reasonable idea, but I'd like to see them officially named and shamed by MLB.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: rocket surgeon on January 14, 2020, 12:39:52 PM
Penalties designed to come off as harsh, allow the Astros to make a clean break, and hope everyone forgets. Should have been much more.

Also, I understand the CBA and upcoming labor issues making the player immunity a reasonable idea, but I'd like to see them officially named and shamed by MLB.

where would the astros have drafted within 202 & 2021 draft anyway?

the salaries lost via firing of luhnow and hinch more than make up for the $5 mil fine

owner crane was last seen grinning like a cheshire cat while slapping his own hand...bad jimmy...bad jimmy
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 14, 2020, 12:45:51 PM
where would the astros have drafted within 202 & 2021 draft anyway?

the salaries lost via firing of luhnow and hinch more than make up for the $5 mil fine


They still have to hire people to take their place though.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 14, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
Penalties designed to come off as harsh, allow the Astros to make a clean break, and hope everyone forgets. Should have been much more.

Also, I understand the CBA and upcoming labor issues making the player immunity a reasonable idea, but I'd like to see them officially named and shamed by MLB.

I can name them for you.  The Astros.  All of them.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 14, 2020, 05:28:00 PM
Penalties designed to come off as harsh, allow the Astros to make a clean break, and hope everyone forgets. Should have been much more.

Also, I understand the CBA and upcoming labor issues making the player immunity a reasonable idea, but I'd like to see them officially named and shamed by MLB.

$5 mil is couch change for these owners - but it is the max allowed. They should have taken away draft picks for 5 years at least. They made so much money by cheating that they can afford to buy anyone they need.

Alex Cora should be banned for life. He was the instigator for rampant cheating for 2 teams now.

I realize it would be a battle to the death with the players union, but I can't think of any reason players shouldn't get long suspensions. MLB is sending out the message that some cheating is OK and some is not.

If a star is caught with steroids in his blood, he gets 80 games, which could cost him $10-415 mil. Why should they get a pass on this type of cheating?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on January 14, 2020, 06:49:29 PM
Quite a stretch for the Astros, what with that (now former) assistant GM being a dirtball misogynist and the organization initially lying about it ... to go with the team's epic choke in the World Series ... and now this.

Well done!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Billy Hoyle on January 14, 2020, 07:08:28 PM
$5 mil is couch change for these owners - but it is the max allowed. They should have taken away draft picks for 5 years at least. They made so much money by cheating that they can afford to buy anyone they need.

Alex Cora should be banned for life. He was the instigator for rampant cheating for 2 teams now.

I realize it would be a battle to the death with the players union, but I can't think of any reason players shouldn't get long suspensions. MLB is sending out the message that some cheating is OK and some is not.

If a star is caught with steroids in his blood, he gets 80 games, which could cost him $10-415 mil. Why should they get a pass on this type of cheating?

Maybe institute a show-cause penalty as the NCAA has for coaches?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 14, 2020, 07:10:37 PM
Quite a stretch for the Astros, what with that (now former) assistant GM being a dirtball misogynist and the organization initially lying about it ... to go with the team's epic choke in the World Series ... and now this.

Well done!

Agree.

I do feel bad for Houwarrior. Seems like a pretty decent guy but it's been a rough week to be a fan of Houston teams.


I had posted earlier how this is the golden age for Wisconsin sports fan (don't let me down, Wojo), but I can empathize as we went through most of the 70's and 80's here (among other bad stretches).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 14, 2020, 07:13:38 PM
Alex Cora and the Red Sox "mutually agree to part ways."

Conscious uncoupling?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 14, 2020, 07:38:57 PM
Alex Cora and the Red Sox "mutually agree to part ways."

Conscious uncoupling?

CYA by Boston  ;D
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 14, 2020, 07:52:35 PM
Interesting, though, is that the guy who got off the easiest was the richest guy. That almost never happens ;D ;D ;D ;D

Manfred has reacted to this crisis just as poorly as Selig did to steroids. Ignore, ignore; then when you can't ignore any more, act like you were the guy who cleaned things up. Threaten the other owners that if they complain about the lenient penalty, they will get a worse one. Selig redux!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 14, 2020, 08:20:06 PM
Interesting, though, is that the guy who got off the easiest was the richest guy. That almost never happens ;D ;D ;D ;D

Manfred has reacted to this crisis just as poorly as Selig did to steroids. Ignore, ignore; then when you can't ignore any more, act like you were the guy who cleaned things up. Threaten the other owners that if they complain about the lenient penalty, they will get a worse one. Selig redux!

Astros lost the most successful GM and coach in team history, four high picks and $5 million. Not sure how that qualifies as the owner getting off easy, especially when there's zero evidence he played any role or was aware of any of this.

Honestly not sure what else you'd expect.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 14, 2020, 08:20:38 PM
Astros lost the most successful GM and coach in team history, four high picks and $5 million. Not sure how that qualifies as the owner getting off easy, especially when there's zero evidence he played any role or was aware of any of this.

Honestly not sure what else you'd expect.

This is where I’m at.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 14, 2020, 08:32:42 PM
The o/u in Sox/Twins games is going to be double digits most nights this coming season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 14, 2020, 08:44:55 PM
Astros lost the most successful GM and coach in team history, four high picks and $5 million. Not sure how that qualifies as the owner getting off easy, especially when there's zero evidence he played any role or was aware of any of this.

Honestly not sure what else you'd expect.


You should listen to Doyers radio here, they are convinced that the owner knew absolutely everything. They want the championships stripped and given to the Doyers.  It was quite the shows this morning. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 14, 2020, 08:45:55 PM
$5 mil is couch change for these owners - but it is the max allowed. They should have taken away draft picks for 5 years at least. They made so much money by cheating that they can afford to buy anyone they need.

Alex Cora should be banned for life. He was the instigator for rampant cheating for 2 teams now.

I realize it would be a battle to the death with the players union, but I can't think of any reason players shouldn't get long suspensions. MLB is sending out the message that some cheating is OK and some is not.

If a star is caught with steroids in his blood, he gets 80 games, which could cost him $10-415 mil. Why should they get a pass on this type of cheating?

Brandx....we agree. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Eldon on January 14, 2020, 09:02:34 PM
Astros lost the most successful GM and coach in team history, four high picks and $5 million. Not sure how that qualifies as the owner getting off easy, especially when there's zero evidence he played any role or was aware of any of this.

Honestly not sure what else you'd expect.

Lifetime bans for all of them: Luhnow, Hinch, Beltran, Cora.  If possible, "official" asterisk on the WS win.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 14, 2020, 09:10:09 PM
Lifetime bans for all of them: Luhnow, Hinch, Beltran, Cora.  If possible, "official" asterisk on the WS win.

I wouldn't do the asterisk because then an asterisk should be by all the WS champs that had a player used steroids, etc, etc. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 14, 2020, 10:05:19 PM
The o/u in Sox/Twins games is going to be double digits most nights this coming season.

They didn't get pitching, but they got an impact player.  Hell of a move.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on January 14, 2020, 10:27:18 PM
Astros corruption uncovered by reporters, of course.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 14, 2020, 10:59:10 PM
Astros lost the most successful GM and coach in team history, four high picks and $5 million. Not sure how that qualifies as the owner getting off easy, especially when there's zero evidence he played any role or was aware of any of this.

Honestly not sure what else you'd expect.

What did the owner lose, though? His franchise made 100s of millions off of the cheating. Poor guy has to give 5 back?

Did he suffer having to fire 2 cheaters? I don't think it hurts him a bit and he can use those extra 100.s of millions to sign guys to make up for the lost draft choices.


The biggest single key to being a great hitter is pitch recognition. That is the entire point of why they stole signs. So besides the owner getting richer by cheating (meaning it paid off), the players did as well. Bigger stats means bigger $$$.

I see only 2 sympathetic figures here. Just barely sympathetic is Hinch. He wanted no part of the scam but was too big of a coward to speak up. The other is Mike Fiers who will have to deal with the fallout for the rest of his career.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 14, 2020, 11:02:03 PM
Astros corruption uncovered by reporters, of course.

Players came forward to spill the beans if that’s what you mean....something that can be done in today’s age without any reporters at all.  As more and more athletes go down the path of the Athletes Tribune model, it is going to be interesting to see where reporters fit in.

I have meeting with the Athletic tomorrow, one of our discussion points...the future of sports media in a world where athletes don’t want to talk to the media but can still control their own message...in a world where media companies are downsizing like crazy.  Interesting times.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 14, 2020, 11:03:55 PM
What did the owner lose, though? His franchise made 100s of millions off of the cheating. Poor guy has to give 5 back?

Did he suffer having to fire 2 cheaters? I don't think it hurts him a bit and he can use those extra 100.s of millions to sign guys to make up for the lost draft choices.


The biggest single key to being a great hitter is pitch recognition. That is the entire point of why they stole signs. So besides the owner getting richer by cheating (meaning it paid off), the players did as well. Bigger stats means bigger $$$.

I see only 2 sympathetic figures here. Just barely sympathetic is Hinch. He wanted no part of the scam but was too big of a coward to speak up. The other is Mike Fiers who will have to deal with the fallout for the rest of his career.

Source for the 100’s of millions.   Not value inflation, but where is it that you are sourcing he made 100’s of millions off the World Series....would like to see this.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 14, 2020, 11:21:20 PM
I see only 2 sympathetic figures here. Just barely sympathetic is Hinch. He wanted no part of the scam but was too big of a coward to speak up. The other is Mike Fiers who will have to deal with the fallout for the rest of his career.

AJ Hinch, who had all the power in the world to stop this but allowed it to continue and then mocked those who raised questions about it ... he's a sympathetic figure? Wut?
He's every bit the villain as Alex Cora and the players who participated. Simply put, if Hinch wanted it to end, it would have ended. He could have dismissed Cora. He could have benched and fined players who took part. He could have reported it to MLB. He did none of these things. Instead, he allowed it to continue because it was producing the results that got him a ring, public acclaim and a fat contract extension.

On the other hand, Crane is being punished for doing nothing wrong. I don't necessarily think that's unfair, because the club as a whole needs to be punished, but to argue that a guy who had no role in this deserves a harsher punishment while the guy who allowed it is sympathetic is perplexing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 14, 2020, 11:25:33 PM
AJ Hinch, who had all the power in the world to stop this but allowed it to continue and then mocked those who raised questions about it ... he's a sympathetic figure? Wut?
He's every bit the villain as Alex Cora and the players who participated. Simply put, if Hinch wanted it to end, it would have ended. He could have dismissed Cora. He could have benched and fined players who took part. He could have reported it to MLB. He did none of these things. Instead, he allowed it to continue because it was producing the results that got him a ring, public acclaim and a fat contract extension.

On the other hand, Crane is being punished for doing nothing wrong. I don't necessarily think that's unfair, because the club as a whole needs to be punished, but to argue that a guy who had no role in this deserves a harsher punishment while the guy who allowed it is sympathetic is perplexing.


ESPN drive home tonight, the announcers believe Crane knew as a hands on owner.  Will be interesting to see if that comes to light....that would be some good work by reporters.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 14, 2020, 11:31:05 PM
AJ Hinch, who had all the power in the world to stop this but allowed it to continue and then mocked those who raised questions about it ... he's a sympathetic figure? Wut?
He's every bit the villain as Alex Cora and the players who participated. Simply put, if Hinch wanted it to end, it would have ended. He could have dismissed Cora. He could have benched and fined players who took part. He could have reported it to MLB. He did none of these things. Instead, he allowed it to continue because it was producing the results that got him a ring, public acclaim and a fat contract extension.

On the other hand, Crane is being punished for doing nothing wrong. I don't necessarily think that's unfair, because the club as a whole needs to be punished, but to argue that a guy who had no role in this deserves a harsher punishment while the guy who allowed it is sympathetic is perplexing.

You're not wrong about Hinch. He didn't set it up and didn't participate. He was simply a coward. That is why I said sympathetic. Maybe the word I should have used is pathetic, instead.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 14, 2020, 11:32:00 PM
It's cute that amyone thinks athletes avoid reporters by "writing" for the Players Tribune.
Or that anyone sees the Players Tribune as anything more than a PR firm.
Or that anyone, you know, reads it.

And Cheeks understanding of how this story broke is painfully inaccurate, it seems. He should ask his friends at the Athletic.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 14, 2020, 11:35:15 PM
You're not wrong about Hinch. He didn't set it up and didn't participate. He was simply a coward. That is why I said sympathetic. Maybe the word I should have used is pathetic, instead.

Speaking of a coward, how about Luhnow's statement.  What a joke.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 14, 2020, 11:51:17 PM
Source for the 100’s of millions.   Not value inflation, but where is it that you are sourcing he made 100’s of millions off the World Series....would like to see this.

The value of the franchise increased by in the 3 years that they cheated. The biggest increase to their value in their history was the first year that they are known to have cheated.

Manfred works for Crane. If he would have really lowered the boom, he would not have his job for long.

Success on the field leads to greater demand for tickets and other revenue streams within a stadium and also increases the value of broadcast rights and sponsorships.

If you asked every other owner if they would trade 4 draft picks & $5 mil for a much greater chance to win a championship and to improve the value of the franchise by $700 million, I think they would all make the deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 15, 2020, 12:00:29 AM
Jeff Passan was on LeBatard today and it was a great segment. I agreed with what Passan said, MLB knew this was going on and was hoping it would have just gone away on its own. Fiers will probably have real trouble in MLB moving forward. Also, there’s zero deterrent to players still trying some form of this, the reward versus risk is overwhelmingly still in the player’s favor.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 15, 2020, 07:24:24 AM
Lifetime bans for all of them: Luhnow, Hinch, Beltran, Cora.  If possible, "official" asterisk on the WS win.

Too harsh.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: lawdog77 on January 15, 2020, 08:29:41 AM
Lifetime bans for all of them: Luhnow, Hinch, Beltran, Cora.  If possible, "official" asterisk on the WS win.
And give me back my money I lost in Vegas.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: #UnleashDiener on January 15, 2020, 09:00:10 AM
Astros corruption uncovered by reporters, of course.

Keep pretending your profession hasn't become an absolute joke
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 15, 2020, 09:05:09 AM
It's cute that amyone thinks athletes avoid reporters by "writing" for the Players Tribune.
Or that anyone sees the Players Tribune as anything more than a PR firm.
Or that anyone, you know, reads it.

And Cheeks understanding of how this story broke is painfully inaccurate, it seems. He should ask his friends at the Athletic.

Players Tribune is a PR firm?  Interesting.  One of the bigger stories of last year came from them.

At any rate, players can go directly to the fans without the media.  Someone else has done that very effectively and it roils some folks a ton.  LOL
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 15, 2020, 09:07:06 AM
The value of the franchise increased by in the 3 years that they cheated. The biggest increase to their value in their history was the first year that they are known to have cheated.

Manfred works for Crane. If he would have really lowered the boom, he would not have his job for long.

Success on the field leads to greater demand for tickets and other revenue streams within a stadium and also increases the value of broadcast rights and sponsorships.

If you asked every other owner if they would trade 4 draft picks & $5 mil for a much greater chance to win a championship and to improve the value of the franchise by $700 million, I think they would all make the deal.

Yes, the “value”, which is much different that what you said.  Paper value is great, but unless you sell you don’t realize the gains.  That’s why I specifically asked the question.  Incidentally the value of other franchises also grew immensely the last few years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 15, 2020, 09:08:51 AM
Jeff Passan was on LeBatard today and it was a great segment. I agreed with what Passan said, MLB knew this was going on and was hoping it would have just gone away on its own. Fiers will probably have real trouble in MLB moving forward. Also, there’s zero deterrent to players still trying some form of this, the reward versus risk is overwhelmingly still in the player’s favor.


What I want to know is if stealing signs from a base runner at second base is still ok?   8-)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 15, 2020, 09:14:12 AM
They didn't get pitching, but they got an impact player.  Hell of a move.

And on the same day that they signed Sano to a three year deal!  It really shows the value they think they're getting on the Donaldson deal that they made both moves with another year of Nelson Cruz at $12M.  Which, based on last year's production, is a contract they will almost surely see surplus value on. 

I assume this move forecasts shifting Sano to 1B.  Assuming he's passable there, with the relative weakness of 1B vs 3B right now, there's value written all over these deals for the Twins.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM
I give the Twins a lot of credit for opening the purse; that's a big contract for someone that age with injury problems.  I sincerely hope it works out for Minnesota; I've always found it easy to root for them.

Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal
Donaldson is 34. His deal with #MNTwins is second-largest for a player 33 or older. Only one larger: Kevin Brown’s 7-year, $105M deal with the #Dodgers from 1998.

Bob Nightengale
@BNightengale
The #Twins currently have a $121.8 million payroll for their 20 signed players, the largest in the AL Central.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 15, 2020, 01:03:53 PM
I give the Twins a lot of credit for opening the purse; that's a big contract for someone that age with injury problems.  I sincerely hope it works out for Minnesota; I've always found it easy to root for them.

Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal
Donaldson is 34. His deal with #MNTwins is second-largest for a player 33 or older. Only one larger: Kevin Brown’s 7-year, $105M deal with the #Dodgers from 1998.

I give Donaldson and his agent credit.  Taking 1 year (granted nice sized deals, but still) as he worked through injuries and decreased production.  Heck of a comeback.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jay Bee on January 15, 2020, 01:36:17 PM
BOMBA SEASON
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on January 15, 2020, 03:52:05 PM
It's cute that amyone thinks athletes avoid reporters by "writing" for the Players Tribune.
Or that anyone sees the Players Tribune as anything more than a PR firm.
Or that anyone, you know, reads it.

And Cheeks understanding of how this story broke is painfully inaccurate, it seems. He should ask his friends at the Athletic.

I read things in the players tribune much more frequently that in SI, the athletic, etc.

Yes its ghost written.  But the ghost writers do a good job of keeping the POV and tone of the athlete.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 16, 2020, 12:53:19 PM
Beltran gowne

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mets-fire-manager-carlos-beltran-wake-astros-sign-stealing-scandal-n1116271
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 16, 2020, 03:16:04 PM
This has gotten GNARLY today.  The garbage cans were bad enough.  But the buzzers are another level entirely.  Penalties could get intense.  I wonder how the MLBPA navigates this.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 16, 2020, 03:19:24 PM
Altuve probably just didn't want to get his pennant-winning jersey ripped or ruined in a Gatorade bath,

...BUT...

the idea that Altuve was afraid his buzzer/wire under his jersey would be exposed in a game-winning celebration is one of my favorite sports conspiracies ever.

https://www.12up.com/posts/jose-altuve-dont-rip-my-shirt-off-aroldis-champman-walk-off-hr-alcs-astros-yankees-01dyqxcze7n0 (https://www.12up.com/posts/jose-altuve-dont-rip-my-shirt-off-aroldis-champman-walk-off-hr-alcs-astros-yankees-01dyqxcze7n0)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 16, 2020, 03:53:26 PM
I 100% believe Altuve (and Bregman) had some type of electronic device under their jersey. The Altuve video is damning and makes no sense other wise for his reaction. You hit a walk off homer to send your team to the World Series and all you can think of is "don't rip off my jersey"? The only plausible explanation is you're hiding something, because in that moment, it's hard to imagine that's the first thing on your mind.

I'm at the point where I would make the Astros take down any and all banners from 2017-2019, suspend Altuve (and if it's true about Bregman) for two years each. Hell, make everyone give their WS rings back while you're at it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 16, 2020, 04:09:01 PM
Some of these "Fiers is a snitch!!!!" takes are something.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 16, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Beltran's "niece's" tweet is really damning. She broke the news a week before he got the Mets job, and she posted on Twitter two days ago that Beltran was getting fired. All of her tweets were spot on. She's made her account private today.

She flat out claims Altuve and Bregman are wearing buzzers on their right shoulders to know what pitch is coming. She also claims she has pictures too.

I think the more this gets dug into, it's going to get even worse.

Edit: Some people believe this Twitter account is a burner account from someone in the Astros organization for what it's worth.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 16, 2020, 04:29:08 PM
Beltran's "niece's" tweet is really damning. She broke the news a week before he got the Mets job, and she posted on Twitter two days ago that Beltran was getting fired. All of her tweets were spot on. She's made her account private today.

She flat out claims Altuve and Bregman are wearing buzzers on their right shoulders to know what pitch is coming. She also claims she has pictures too.

I think the more this gets dug into, it's going to get even worse.

Edit: Some people believe this Twitter account is a burner account from someone in the Astros organization for what it's worth.

FWIW ... Beltran's family says that the person claiming to be his niece is not related to the family in any way.
Which isn't to say what's being tweeted isn't true ... just that it's a fake profile.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 16, 2020, 04:30:58 PM
FWIW ... Beltran's family says that the person claiming to be his niece is not related to the family in any way.
Which isn't to say what's being tweeted isn't true ... just that it's a fake profile.

Yeah, I edited my post to say it's being speculated it's a burner account, which makes sense. This account though has gotten things right thus far in regards to breaking the Beltran hiring/firing before both were announced by other media outlets though.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 16, 2020, 04:34:12 PM
The #5 pitcher on my American Legion team didn’t see much action - but he was valuable as a first base coach. When the opposing catcher was careless (happened fairly regularly) he was a first class sign stealer. He constantly chattered, but when he used your first name a fastball was coming. Last name meant an off speed pitch. We weren’t facing Justin Verlander, but I can tell you that your confidence soars (as does your OPS) when you know what’s coming.

I never considered taking advantage of an opponent’s carelessness cheating - to me it’s high IQ baseball. This stuff, though, is awful. It will be interesting to see how many (if any) players are punished.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 16, 2020, 04:34:51 PM
Yeah, I edited my post to say it's being speculated it's a burner account, which makes sense. This account though has gotten things right thus far in regards to breaking the Beltran hiring/firing before both were announced by other media outlets though.

Adding to the growing grains of salt pile, Trevor Bauer followed up on twitter to confirm he has heard similar things about Altuve and Bregman.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: TallTitan34 on January 16, 2020, 04:42:12 PM
Jomboy also says he has 5 independent sources who have mentioned the buzzers.

Altuve should lose his MVP award if true.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EObWvkdVUAATFHJ?format=jpg)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 16, 2020, 04:52:32 PM
Jomboy also says he has 5 independent sources who have mentioned the buzzers.

Altuve should lose his MVP award if true.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EObWvkdVUAATFHJ?format=jpg)

I know I'm playing internet detective here, but what's interesting to me about this is that it's the right shoulder. What I mean is when he's hitting, the odds of him getting plunked in the right shoulder are basically nil. It would make sense if you're going to put some type of device on that the right shoulder would be the best spot for it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 16, 2020, 04:57:30 PM
Jomboy also says he has 5 independent sources who have mentioned the buzzers.

Altuve should lose his MVP award if true.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EObWvkdVUAATFHJ?format=jpg)

OK, but not until all the juicers lose theirs.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 16, 2020, 05:22:23 PM
nm
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 16, 2020, 05:39:57 PM
Jomboy also says he has 5 independent sources who have mentioned the buzzers.

Altuve should lose his MVP award if true.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EObWvkdVUAATFHJ?format=jpg)
\

I heard this speculated almost immediately as a sign stealing device. 

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1188255881814773766

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 16, 2020, 05:44:51 PM
Beltran's "niece's" tweet is really damning. She broke the news a week before he got the Mets job, and she posted on Twitter two days ago that Beltran was getting fired. All of her tweets were spot on. She's made her account private today.

She flat out claims Altuve and Bregman are wearing buzzers on their right shoulders to know what pitch is coming. She also claims she has pictures too.

I think the more this gets dug into, it's going to get even worse.

Edit: Some people believe this Twitter account is a burner account from someone in the Astros organization for what it's worth.

There was speculation that Taubman went to Reddit almost immediately after his firing and aired all the specifics of the scandal under some burner account.  That is where I first heard the rumor the Astros were using buzzers.

It was also apparently pretty well known that the Astros were up to no good, because even with no one on base the Nats were using multiple signs and reportedly changing the signs almost every batter. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 16, 2020, 05:47:36 PM
Et tu, Orbit?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOcCzP1WkAgm6zy.jpg)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 16, 2020, 05:49:00 PM
\

I heard this speculated almost immediately as a sign stealing device. 

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1188255881814773766

Would be pretty funny if it was a reflective sticker and he was just watching the catcher’s signs for himself.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 16, 2020, 05:49:06 PM
This has gotten GNARLY today.  The garbage cans were bad enough.  But the buzzers are another level entirely.  Penalties could get intense.  I wonder how the MLBPA navigates this.

This could get a lot worse.  While it seems certain the Red Sox are screwed, (and I think should have harsher penalties as a repeat offender) I remember the Red Sox at the time, saying they were trying to keep up with the Yankees, who the prior season, employed Carlos Beltran. 

Beltran was also a special advisor to the Yanks last season, and in an interview after the London series, Cora alluded to him as their biggest free agent acquisition --- literally winking while he said it--- then said they were paying attention to all the details and even said devices in his interview. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 16, 2020, 05:56:06 PM
Et tu, Orbit?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOcCzP1WkAgm6zy.jpg)

Hahaha.  OK, that's funny.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 16, 2020, 06:12:37 PM
Et tu, Orbit?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOcCzP1WkAgm6zy.jpg)

“Houston, we have a problem...”
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Billy Hoyle on January 16, 2020, 06:44:54 PM
FWIW ... Beltran's family says that the person claiming to be his niece is not related to the family in any way.
Which isn't to say what's being tweeted isn't true ... just that it's a fake profile.

A rumor I read is that it wasn't a family member but rather a current MLB player. The account is gone now.

I asked a coworker who played in the minors for a few years0 what was worse, steroids (he played with the Giambi brothers) or the sign stealing. No doubt, the sign stealing. With roids (he did not take them, which may have caused him not to make the Show) you still have to hit the ball or throw it past the hitter (and it's probable that both the hitter and pitcher were on roids).  With sign-stealing you know what pitch is coming and only one side is getting the advantage.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 16, 2020, 06:56:35 PM
Do Stearns and Craig now get chit canned too, hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 16, 2020, 07:29:50 PM
Do Stearns and Craig now get chit canned too, hey?

Nothing to see there, hey?

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/c0cb0r/yelichs_home_vs_away_stats_are_insane_which/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 16, 2020, 07:57:37 PM
I saw on Twitter a Boras quote that Altuve not wanting his jersey ripped off is because he’s shy. That’s hilarious.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 16, 2020, 08:49:23 PM
Nothing to see there, hey?

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/c0cb0r/yelichs_home_vs_away_stats_are_insane_which/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Must’ve started stealing signs on the road after 60 games, ai’na? Over 1.000 OPS on the road over the course of the entire season is decent I think.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on January 16, 2020, 09:11:44 PM
Jomboy also says he has 5 independent sources who have mentioned the buzzers.

Altuve should lose his MVP award if true.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EObWvkdVUAATFHJ?format=jpg)

 This happens to me all the time when I don't iron my jersey
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: lawdog77 on January 17, 2020, 06:42:05 AM
(https://science.nasa.gov/files/science-red/s3fs-public/styles/large/public/mnt/medialibrary/2001/08/28/ast24may_1_resources/pio_med.gif?itok=44aHpUYR)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WithoutBias on January 17, 2020, 08:53:39 AM
Mike Trout on HGH?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 17, 2020, 09:27:26 AM
I saw on Twitter a Boras quote that Altuve not wanting his jersey ripped off is because he’s shy. That’s hilarious.

Its a hell of a world where the occam's razor explanation is that a major league baseball team systematically cheated including enabling its players to use buzzing devices hidden under their jerseys as part of a sign stealing scheme that included at least three different parties positioned strategically around the stadium. But I think thats where we are.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 17, 2020, 10:22:45 AM
Mike Trout on HGH?

FWIW, thats been floating around for awhile.  I heard it from a former coworker of mine whose brother is an 8 year MLB vet
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 17, 2020, 12:09:06 PM
We finally fully know what "the Cardinal Way" means. It is just a synonym for cheating.

1993 AL Cy Young winner Jack McDowell alleged in a radio appearance Friday morning that the White Sox had an illegal sign-stealing operation at old Comiskey Park in the late 1980s, and that Hall of Fame manager Tony La Russa was the instigator of the scheme.

Speaking to WFNZ-AM in Charlotte, where he serves as baseball coach for Queens University, McDowell said the White Sox had a camera zoomed in on opposing catchers and a light in an outfield Gatorade sign that could be controlled from the manager's office and would presumably let hitters know which pitches were coming.


Larussa was one of the great cheaters in baseball history - all the while preaching and lecturing other teams on how to play the game properly. I have no doubt that Larussa would actually pull down McGwire's pants to make it easier to inject himself with steroids.

The HoF needs to either remove Larussa or put an explanation on his plaque that he is only in Cooperstown because he cheated better than anyone else.

The Cardinal Way. Finally fully exposed.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 17, 2020, 01:08:27 PM
We finally fully know what "the Cardinal Way" means. It is just a synonym for cheating.

1993 AL Cy Young winner Jack McDowell alleged in a radio appearance Friday morning that the White Sox had an illegal sign-stealing operation at old Comiskey Park in the late 1980s, and that Hall of Fame manager Tony La Russa was the instigator of the scheme.

Speaking to WFNZ-AM in Charlotte, where he serves as baseball coach for Queens University, McDowell said the White Sox had a camera zoomed in on opposing catchers and a light in an outfield Gatorade sign that could be controlled from the manager's office and would presumably let hitters know which pitches were coming.


Larussa was one of the great cheaters in baseball history - all the while preaching and lecturing other teams on how to play the game properly. I have no doubt that Larussa would actually pull down McGwire's pants to make it easier to inject himself with steroids.

The HoF needs to either remove Larussa or put an explanation on his plaque that he is only in Cooperstown because he cheated better than anyone else.

The Cardinal Way. Finally fully exposed.

Don't know whether McDowell is right or wrong, but it's worth noting that he never played for Tony LaRussa. He was fired a year before McDowell was even drafted by the White Sox.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 17, 2020, 01:51:25 PM
Yeah.  I hate LaRussa, and really like Black Jack McDowell, (the pitcher, not necessarily the guitarist).  However, the timeline doesn't really match up.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 17, 2020, 02:05:50 PM
Yeah.  I hate LaRussa, and really like Black Jack McDowell, (the pitcher, not necessarily the guitarist).  However, the timeline doesn't really match up.

Why not?  He didn't say "La Russa taught me this".  He said that the Sox in the 80s had a sign stealing gambit that was started/created/instigated by La Russa.  So they were either still using it for a season or two after La Russa left, or players on the team told him about it.  Thats entirely plausible and not even remotely incongruous.  Even moreso that he didn't play for La Russa and would have no need to protect him and/or a bone to pick with him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 17, 2020, 02:14:13 PM
Why not?  He didn't say "La Russa taught me this".  He said that the Sox in the 80s had a sign stealing gambit that was started/created/instigated by La Russa.  So they were either still using it for a season or two after La Russa left, or players on the team told him about it.  Thats entirely plausible and not even remotely incongruous.  Even moreso that he didn't play for La Russa and would have no need to protect him and/or a bone to pick with him.

As I said, McDowell could be right, but ultimately he'd have zero firsthand knowledge of this.
Jockey's suggestion that LaRussa be banned from the HOF because of hearsay remarks about sign-stealing scheme more than 30 years ago, coming from a player he never managed, seems a bit of a stretch.

I'm not a fan of LaRussa, but neither am I fan of ruining a person's reputation and/or punishing him/her based on secondhand (at best) remarks.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 17, 2020, 04:51:55 PM
I wonder how much the implementation of replay reviews in baseball led to team's cheating.  Cora probably saw that stupid "replay room" they get to go in to decide if they should challenge and thought, "I can use this to my advantage."  It was probably bound to happen eventually.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 17, 2020, 05:04:41 PM
Honestly, this is all the MLBs fault.

It’s all fun and games until too many people get caught and then it’s damage control.

Same crap happened in the steroids era. MLB turned a blind eye towards it while it was convenient for them Sosa vs. McGuire, Clemens throwing gas, etc. but as soon as the stories came out it’s the players fault and they’re the ones punished with unofficial bans to the hall of fame and lengthy suspensions.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 17, 2020, 05:24:42 PM
I wonder how much the implementation of replay reviews in baseball led to team's cheating.  Cora probably saw that stupid "replay room" they get to go in to decide if they should challenge and thought, "I can use this to my advantage."  It was probably bound to happen eventually.

It wasn't coming from the team's replay room.  They literally set up a monitor on a table just down the tunnel from the dugout where they watched a camera they had installed in center field and banged on a trash can from there.

https://twitter.com/YankeeReport_/status/1196192912998117376?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1196192912998117376&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.espn.com%2F
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 17, 2020, 05:32:55 PM
I imagine this is a sentiment shared by a lot of guys around the league...

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1218306735624028162
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on January 17, 2020, 06:15:26 PM
Verlander is one of my favorite players ever, but he is going to get some tricky questions this year asking him to reconcile his public statements about different kinds of cheating and what went on with Astro's.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Billy Hoyle on January 17, 2020, 06:33:28 PM
I imagine this is a sentiment shared by a lot of guys around the league...

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1218306735624028162

every Astros player is going to be thrown at this season and nobody is going to blame the pitchers for doing it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 17, 2020, 09:39:00 PM
Mike Trout on HGH?

LOL

Brossius backtracked that so fast today....I'm hoping a major lawsuit is about to hit him in the ass.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jesmu84 on January 18, 2020, 08:19:34 AM
At least with steroids, pitcher and batter could partake. Probably more fair across the board
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 18, 2020, 08:22:22 AM
LOL

Brossius backtracked that so fast today....I'm hoping a major lawsuit is about to hit him in the ass.


He backtracked and likely didn't do much harm.  No grounds for a suit.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 18, 2020, 09:33:31 AM
He was forced to backtrack, MLB had to come out and say it was BS, Yahoo picked it up on their front page before the backtrack and others believe this crap.....I hope he sues his ass.  Let a judge decide if it has merit.  It was a very serious charge and deserves to be treated as such.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 18, 2020, 09:44:20 AM
No damages caused.  No merit to the suit.

Glad you're on the side of frivolous lawsuits now. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 18, 2020, 09:45:24 AM
Verlander is one of my favorite players ever, but he is going to get some tricky questions this year asking him to reconcile his public statements about different kinds of cheating and what went on with Astro's.
He'll just ban any reporter who asks those "tricky questions."
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: lawdog77 on January 18, 2020, 11:34:42 AM
He was forced to backtrack, MLB had to come out and say it was BS, Yahoo picked it up on their front page before the backtrack and others believe this crap.....I hope he sues his ass.  Let a judge decide if it has merit.  It was a very serious charge and deserves to be treated as such.
only if Trout is squeaky clean. Discovery is a B%tch.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 18, 2020, 11:39:16 AM
He was forced to backtrack, MLB had to come out and say it was BS, Yahoo picked it up on their front page before the backtrack and others believe this crap.....I hope he sues his ass.  Let a judge decide if it has merit.  It was a very serious charge and deserves to be treated as such.

All the reasons above are why Trout would have little success with a defamation suit. Add to it the fact he's a public figure, and he has  virtually no chance of winning.
But if he wants to try and make a bunch of rich lawyers richer, he's free to do so.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 18, 2020, 01:32:15 PM
only if Trout is squeaky clean. Discovery is a B%tch.

Yup...go for it...it’s this kind of crap right here why you do it to shut aholes up
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 18, 2020, 01:33:01 PM
All the reasons above are why Trout would have little success with a defamation suit. Add to it the fact he's a public figure, and he has  virtually no chance of winning.
But if he wants to try and make a bunch of rich lawyers richer, he's free to do so.

Which is exactly why so many people want these laws changed because people go off with claims and rarely get punished for it.  REFORM
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 18, 2020, 03:46:19 PM
Which is exactly why so many people want these laws changed because people go off with claims and rarely get punished for it.  REFORM

#fakenews
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 18, 2020, 04:03:36 PM
#fakenews

https://www.wsj.com/articles/america-needs-stronger-laws-against-defamation-11569881386

Nope
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 18, 2020, 04:29:56 PM
Which is exactly why so many people want these laws changed because people go off with claims and rarely get punished for it.  REFORM


Cheeks wants to make it easier to sue in civil courts - when it benefits rich, white, men.

Shocking!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jesmu84 on January 18, 2020, 04:30:19 PM
Which is exactly why so many people want these laws changed because people go off with claims and rarely get punished for it.  REFORM

"So many people" want a lot of laws changed.

And?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on January 18, 2020, 05:06:26 PM
Yup...go for it...it’s this kind of crap right here why you do it to shut aholes up

You know Trout is clean? I’d like to think he is, but I’m past the point in believing anyone is clean beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even my favorite athletes.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 18, 2020, 05:39:08 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/america-needs-stronger-laws-against-defamation-11569881386

Nope

1. It's #fakenews because you have no idea how defamation law works.
2. It's #fakenews because there aren't "so many" people that want to change federal law because someone misstated something about Mike Trout
3. It's #fakenews because a letter to the editor published by the WSJ is hardly evidence of "So many" people wanting something. Truth is, I'm aware of no pending federal legislation that would change libel/defamation law ... despite "so many" people demanding it.
(side note: fun how quickly Cheeks is willing to cite the media when it suits him)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 19, 2020, 11:46:56 PM
1. It's #fakenews because you have no idea how defamation law works.
2. It's #fakenews because there aren't "so many" people that want to change federal law because someone misstated something about Mike Trout
3. It's #fakenews because a letter to the editor published by the WSJ is hardly evidence of "So many" people wanting something. Truth is, I'm aware of no pending federal legislation that would change libel/defamation law ... despite "so many" people demanding it.
(side note: fun how quickly Cheeks is willing to cite the media when it suits him)

It was one example, do you really think it is the only example?  Lol. 

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jficke13 on January 20, 2020, 09:51:23 AM
It was one example, do you really think it is the only example?  Lol.

Move to England. Enjoy their loose defamation laws for a bit.

Why my countrymen are so eager to destroy the 1st amendment to defend people more powerful than they will ever be, I will never understand.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 20, 2020, 10:06:00 AM
Carlos Beltran's "niece" appears to be a internet troll Incarcerated Bob.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-this-notorious-troll-dupe-mlb-fans-and-players-into-believing-conspiracies-about-astros-sign-stealing?ref=home
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 20, 2020, 10:48:52 AM
Carlos Beltran's "niece" appears to be a internet troll Incarcerated Bob.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-this-notorious-troll-dupe-mlb-fans-and-players-into-believing-conspiracies-about-astros-sign-stealing?ref=home

ICB is one of the biggest douchebags in that section of the world.  Between his NYC sports nonsense and his gambling stuff, he's the absolute worst.  Epitome of an internet tough guy posturing from a crapty apartment in the outer boroughs
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 20, 2020, 10:50:50 AM
Carlos Beltran's "niece" appears to be a internet troll Incarcerated Bob.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-this-notorious-troll-dupe-mlb-fans-and-players-into-believing-conspiracies-about-astros-sign-stealing?ref=home

I am going to grab that Scoop moniker before Cheeks does.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 20, 2020, 12:15:06 PM
Move to England. Enjoy their loose defamation laws for a bit.

Why my countrymen are so eager to destroy the 1st amendment to defend people more powerful than they will ever be, I will never understand.

Two words.

Cult. Ignorance.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 20, 2020, 08:52:01 PM
Move to England. Enjoy their loose defamation laws for a bit.

Why my countrymen are so eager to destroy the 1st amendment to defend people more powerful than they will ever be, I will never understand.

I want to be like Europe in so many ways.....
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 20, 2020, 10:31:54 PM
I want to be like Europe in so many ways.....

In actual baseball stuff... the Nolan Arenado/ Rockies relationship seems to be at a breaking point.  This could get interesting.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on January 20, 2020, 10:38:30 PM
In actual baseball stuff... the Nolan Arenado/ Rockies relationship seems to be at a breaking point.  This could get interesting.

Hmmmmm. Who could use a 3B and barely spent in FA this year?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on January 21, 2020, 12:13:38 AM
Hmmmmm. Who could use a 3B and barely spent in FA this year?

I guess never say never,  but doesn't feel remotely likely. He's worth it, but that opt out looms large.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 21, 2020, 10:37:50 AM
I guess never say never,  but doesn't feel remotely likely. He's worth it, but that opt out looms large.

I agree on the opt out. 

I'm typically as pro-player a guy as you will find, but this is one of the rare cases where I'm on the team's side.  I don't think players appreciate how much these huge deals with opt-outs hamstring their teams. Generally, I think all teams should spend more, so I get Arenado's frustration generally, but the facts here make him look petulant.  The Rockies had the 11th highest payroll in baseball last year, so its not like they refuse to spend.  And most important, he signed a deal literally one year ago for $260M with a player opt out 3 years later (now 2 - end of 2021).

If you're the Jeff Bridich, what the hell are you supposed to do with that? You're looking at free agents, and you're not sure if your best player will be around in two years, or if the 4th largest AAV in baseball will be disappearing off your books. It really undermines your ability to sign FAs to long term deals, or to plan effectively using your farm system.  Arenado leaving is a franchise altering thing, and he's sort of doomed his team to picking through 1 and 2 year FA contracts.  To turn around and complain about that is lame.  Good on him if that's the deal he wants, I don't begrudge him that at all, but its completely foreseeable that contract would negatively impact his team's ability to plan around him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 21, 2020, 05:21:48 PM
Derek Jeter and Larry Walker are your 2020 Hall of Fame inductees.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Billy Hoyle on January 21, 2020, 05:30:31 PM
Derek Jeter and Larry Walker are your 2020 Hall of Fame inductees.

I can't wait to find out who is the only voter to not vote for Jeter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 21, 2020, 05:39:41 PM
I can't wait to find out who is the only voter to not vote for Jeter.

The next five were:
Curt Schilling (70 percent)
Roger Clemens (61 percent)
Barry Bonds (60.7 percent)
Omar Vizquel (52.6 percent)
Scott Rolen (35.3 percent)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 21, 2020, 05:43:17 PM
I can't wait to find out who is the only voter to not vote for Jeter.
It would be funny if it was the same guy who voted for JJ Putz

COMPLETE VOTING TOTALS
Scott Rolen: 140 (35.3)
Billy Wagner: 126 (31.7)
Gary Sheffield: 121 (30.5)
Todd Helton: 116 (29.2)
Manny Ramírez: 112 (28.2)
Jeff Kent 109: (27.5)
Andruw Jones: 77 (19.4)
Sammy Sosa: 55 (13.9)
Andy Pettitte: 45 (11.3)
Bobby Abreu: 22 (5.5)
Paul Konerko: 10 (2.5)
Jason Giambi: 6 (1.5)
Alfonso Soriano: 6 (1.5)
Eric Chávez: 2 (0.5)
Cliff Lee: 2 (0.5)
Adam Dunn: 1 (0.3)
Brad Penny: 1 (0.3)
Raúl Ibañez: 1 (0.3)
J.J. Putz: 1 (0.3)
Josh Beckett, Heath Bell, Chone Figgins, Rafael Furcal, Carlos Peña, Brian Roberts, José Valverde: 0
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 21, 2020, 06:49:44 PM
I hope the Braves sign the most underrated hitter in every FA class to a monster 1 yr deal every offseason. Its fun.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on January 21, 2020, 07:14:53 PM
Good for Larry Walker, well earned.

Ozuna to Braves.

Ozuna wanted to go back to St. Louis but the Cardinals wanted to move on. The Cardinals made the one year qualifying offer to get the draft pick. We'll see how that works out for both.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on January 21, 2020, 09:06:09 PM
I can't wait to find out who is the only voter to not vote for Jeter.


I want to shake his hand
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 21, 2020, 09:16:09 PM

I want to shake his hand

Amen!!! Who the h3ll are Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter?

Ruth, Wagner, Young, Johnson, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, etc., weren't worthy of unanimous selection, but Rivera was? And Jeter would have been if not for one brave soul?

Give me a break.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 21, 2020, 09:33:36 PM
Amen!!! Who the h3ll are Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter?

Ruth, Wagner, Young, Johnson, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, etc., weren't worthy of unanimous selection, but Rivera was? And Jeter would have been if not for one brave soul?

Give me a break.

I'm not sure how people being stupid in the past is a reason to be stupid in the present.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 21, 2020, 09:45:59 PM
I'm not sure how people being stupid in the past is a reason to be stupid in the present.

Simply put, a guy who is certainly not even in the top 50, and probably not in the top 100 all-time, doesn't deserve unanimous selection.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 21, 2020, 09:55:35 PM
I hope the Braves sign the most underrated hitter in every FA class to a monster 1 yr deal every offseason. Its fun.

A one year deal is good for the Braves, but I certainly wouldn't call Ozuna the most underrated hitter in free agency.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 21, 2020, 10:38:26 PM
I can't wait to find out who is the only voter to not vote for Jeter.

82?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 21, 2020, 10:58:25 PM
I can't wait to find out who is the only voter to not vote for Jeter.

I’m kind of glad.  He’s definitely a HOFer, but there were guys better than him that got nowhere close to 100%.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on January 22, 2020, 07:27:57 AM
There's a reason a lot of non-Yankees fans hate Derek Jeter and it has nothing to do with him.  It is the endless need by the sports media to hold him up as some icon of goodness.  The scroll during our game on FS1 had "Yankees legend Derek Jeter, OF Larry Walker voted into Hall of Fame."

Tower, FYI, Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR than Derek Jeter.  For you Cubs/Brewers fans, Joe Posnanski is doing a phenomenal series on the top 100 baseball players of all time on The Athletic, and Ernie Banks arrived today at no. 65, Robin Yount was no. 66 and Derek Jeter was no. 79.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 22, 2020, 09:25:54 AM
A one year deal is good for the Braves, but I certainly wouldn't call Ozuna the most underrated hitter in free agency.

You're right most underrated is probably overstated.  I just meant that after Donaldson last year, they seem to be making a habit of swooping in for solid, veteran hitters who haven't been able to find the long term deal they're looking for.  Assuming Ozuna does Ozuna things, its been a nice low-risk strategy for them.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 22, 2020, 10:09:44 AM
There's a reason a lot of non-Yankees fans hate Derek Jeter and it has nothing to do with him.  It is the endless need by the sports media to hold him up as some icon of goodness.  The scroll during our game on FS1 had "Yankees legend Derek Jeter, OF Larry Walker voted into Hall of Fame."

Tower, FYI, Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR than Derek Jeter.  For you Cubs/Brewers fans, Joe Posnanski is doing a phenomenal series on the top 100 baseball players of all time on The Athletic, and Ernie Banks arrived today at no. 65, Robin Yount was no. 66 and Derek Jeter was no. 79.

Bingo.  They also have managed to turn 2 plays, the flip at home and the "dive" into the stands (which was probably unnecessary and he could have pulled up) into this idea that he was an exceptional defender, when all of the metrics point him to not being just average, but actually a pretty poor defensive shortstop.  And there is just AGGRESSIVE pearl clutching if you could dare to speak ill of St Jeter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 22, 2020, 10:33:46 AM
Bingo.  They also have managed to turn 2 plays, the flip at home and the "dive" into the stands (which was probably unnecessary and he could have pulled up) into this idea that he was an exceptional defender, when all of the metrics point him to not being just average, but actually a pretty poor defensive shortstop.  And there is just AGGRESSIVE pearl clutching if you could dare to speak ill of St Jeter.
I remember Alexi Ramirez should've won the GG in '10.  I'm too lazy to look it up, but assume another defender got robbed in (most? all?) of Jeter's four remaining Gold Glove seasons.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 22, 2020, 11:01:03 AM
I’m kind of glad.  He’s definitely a HOFer, but there were guys better than him that got nowhere close to 100%.

Ok that's fair, but what is there any reason, other than being the percentage police, to not include Derek Jeter on a HOF ballot?

I can't think of a legit baseball reason. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on January 22, 2020, 11:28:41 AM
Ok that's fair, but what is there any reason, other than being the percentage police, to not include Derek Jeter on a HOF ballot?

I can't think of a legit baseball reason.
No.  But people didn't vote for Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, etc.  Frankly, Mariano Rivera was a weird choice to be the first unanimous selection, since he is in the lowest quartile of HOFers in WAR due to his role.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on January 22, 2020, 11:29:23 AM
The amount of handwringing that is going to occur as Schilling, Bonds and Clemens (among others, but let's be real - Sosa and McGuire are never getting in) is going to be something to behold. Especially since are no blue-chip first timers next year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 22, 2020, 11:31:40 AM
I can't think of a legit baseball reason.
I remember a writer who left Griffey off claiming that there were 10, other, worthy candidates.  Knowing Junior was going to make in anyway, he did not "waste" one of his limited picks on a sure-thing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 22, 2020, 12:00:00 PM
No.  But people didn't vote for Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, etc.  Frankly, Mariano Rivera was a weird choice to be the first unanimous selection, since he is in the lowest quartile of HOFers in WAR due to his role.

Right, but as buck correctly stated earlier, bad voting decisions of the past doesn't justify bad voting decisions of the present.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on January 22, 2020, 12:04:04 PM
Right, but as buck correctly stated earlier, bad voting decisions of the past doesn't justify bad voting decisions of the present.
I'd have voted for Rivera, just a weird guy to be the first unanimous, since being a closer could be a deal breaker for some voters in the same way that being a DH might be.  I can understand not voting for closers more than I can understand not voting for DHs.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jesmu84 on January 22, 2020, 12:14:42 PM
https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/1698826/major-league-baseball-gave-astros-players-full-immunity-in-exchange-for-the-full-story-of-the-cheating-scandal
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 22, 2020, 12:24:47 PM
I'd have voted for Rivera, just a weird guy to be the first unanimous, since being a closer could be a deal breaker for some voters in the same way that being a DH might be.  I can understand not voting for closers more than I can understand not voting for DHs.

I'm not speaking to Rivera in particular, but rather the argument out there that "Since Babe Ruth didn't get 100%, neither should  (insert name here)."
Also hate the idea that a giy doesn't deserve to be elected on first ballot/second ballot, etc. A guy is either a HOFer or not. The notion that a guy is unworthy one year but totally worthy five years later is ridiculous.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on January 22, 2020, 12:55:29 PM
I'm not speaking to Rivera in particular, but rather the argument out there that "Since Babe Ruth didn't get 100%, neither should  (insert name here)."
Also hate the idea that a giy doesn't deserve to be elected on first ballot/second ballot, etc. A guy is either a HOFer or not. The notion that a guy is unworthy one year but totally worthy five years later is ridiculous.
I agree with that, especially since there is a unanimous selection now.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on January 22, 2020, 01:11:08 PM
82?

Sadly, last year was my final vote. Once writers haven't actively covered baseball for 10 years, even if we are lifetime BBWAA cardholders, that person no longer receives a ballot. Kind of a subtle ageism, but I get it -- they want people who really closely follow the game to vote, and although I do, some oldsters probably don't.

I was never for denying a guy just because he was a first-ballot candidate. Either you're a HoFer or not, and I voted for many, many first-ballot guys over the years. For the record, I would have voted for Jeter, I did vote for Rivera (obviously), and I never voted for Larry Walker.

Only a couple of times in my 23 years as a HoF voter did I choose a guy after having not done so earlier, and on both occasions some of the advanced-stat people that I respect made such compelling arguments that I felt I had overlooked significant data. Those players were Tim Raines and Edgar Martinez. It's hard for me to fathom that hundreds upon hundreds of voters who didn't choose Walker for years and years suddenly decided that he had gotten better or something. But I congratulate him; he certainly was a fine ballplayer.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on January 22, 2020, 01:54:05 PM
Sadly, last year was my final vote. Once writers haven't actively covered baseball for 10 years, even if we are lifetime BBWAA cardholders, that person no longer receives a ballot. Kind of a subtle ageism, but I get it -- they want people who really closely follow the game to vote, and although I do, some oldsters probably don't.

I was never for denying a guy just because he was a first-ballot candidate. Either you're a HoFer or not, and I voted for many, many first-ballot guys over the years. For the record, I would have voted for Jeter, I did vote for Rivera (obviously), and I never voted for Larry Walker.

Only a couple of times in my 23 years as a HoF voter did I choose a guy after having not done so earlier, and on both occasions some of the advanced-stat people that I respect made such compelling arguments that I felt I had overlooked significant data. Those players were Tim Raines and Edgar Martinez. It's hard for me to fathom that hundreds upon hundreds of voters who didn't choose Walker for years and years suddenly decided that he had gotten better or something. But I congratulate him; he certainly was a fine ballplayer.

MU82, I am quite envious that you were able to vote for the HOF for so many years.  Were there any guys you championed (or at least were adamant about that they belonged) that didn't make it?  How about the reverse, guys you thought had no business being elected by the writers but who were?  I'm not talking about the Veteran's committees, who are all over the place with their inductions.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 22, 2020, 06:00:01 PM
Completely off the subject, and I'm not doing this to name drop or impress or anything remotely close to that. My family has been involved with Michael Kopech and his charitable efforts, and we hung out with Michael and his wife Vanessa Morgan (she's an actress on Riverdale). Kopech grew his hair out for months, and today my son helped cut his hair in an effort to raise awareness for pediatric cancer and Ronald McDonald House.

Anyway, what was interesting in talking to Michael and Vanessa was their "normal" life stresses, and not knowing if Michael is going to be on the big league roster to start the year. Trying to figure that out and balance where to live, how to get their 5 dogs to Chicago, finding a place that is dog friendly to live, affording houses in both Phoenix where they live now and buying a place in Chicago. I realize he's a professional athlete and she's an actress, but it was really interesting how genuinely anxious and a level of stress in how they talked about it and trying to become a stable family. I realize they have all kinds of levels of access and luxury that most of us will never know, I think sometimes I forget these guys are normal human beings who have lives.

This may have been a totally pointless post, but Kopech is a legit genuine dude.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 22, 2020, 06:03:21 PM
Completely off the subject, and I'm not doing this to name drop or impress or anything remotely close to that. My family has been involved with Michael Kopech and his charitable efforts, and we hung out with Michael and his wife Vanessa Morgan (she's an actress on Riverdale). Kopech grew his hair out for months, and today my son helped cut his hair in an effort to raise awareness for pediatric cancer and Ronald McDonald House.

Anyway, what was interesting in talking to Michael and Vanessa was their "normal" life stresses, and not knowing if Michael is going to be on the big league roster to start the year. Trying to figure that out and balance where to live, how to get their 5 dogs to Chicago, finding a place that is dog friendly to live, affording houses in both Phoenix where they live now and buying a place in Chicago. I realize he's a professional athlete and she's an actress, but it was really interesting how genuinely anxious and a level of stress in how they talked about it and trying to become a stable family. I realize they have all kinds of levels of access and luxury that most of us will never know, I think sometimes I forget these guys are normal human beings who have lives.

This may have been a totally pointless post, but Kopech is a legit genuine dude.
Very cool.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 22, 2020, 06:52:18 PM
Completely off the subject, and I'm not doing this to name drop or impress or anything remotely close to that. My family has been involved with Michael Kopech and his charitable efforts, and we hung out with Michael and his wife Vanessa Morgan (she's an actress on Riverdale). Kopech grew his hair out for months, and today my son helped cut his hair in an effort to raise awareness for pediatric cancer and Ronald McDonald House.

Anyway, what was interesting in talking to Michael and Vanessa was their "normal" life stresses, and not knowing if Michael is going to be on the big league roster to start the year. Trying to figure that out and balance where to live, how to get their 5 dogs to Chicago, finding a place that is dog friendly to live, affording houses in both Phoenix where they live now and buying a place in Chicago. I realize he's a professional athlete and she's an actress, but it was really interesting how genuinely anxious and a level of stress in how they talked about it and trying to become a stable family. I realize they have all kinds of levels of access and luxury that most of us will never know, I think sometimes I forget these guys are normal human beings who have lives.

This may have been a totally pointless post, but Kopech is a legit genuine dude.

Thats awesome.  Glad to hear he's a solid dude. Glad he got free of the Real Housewives-realm drama when he was still basically a kid and into something legit.

Also, so true about balancing and "affording" life.  I have no clue to her earning status, but I can think of two similar stories, especially at that age.  He had a nice bonus, but he's still on the pre-arb pay scale, he's not filthy rich yet, when you're talking all the random fees and expenses, not to mention 2 residences.

In my first few years out of college, I was good friends with a guy whose best friend from childhood played in the NFL.  But we're talking a 5th round pick, primarily special teams player in his 2nd year.  He was in town in the offseason, we went out one night, tried to get into a club in Chicago, it was crazy crowded, one of their other friends was trying to play the "he's an athlete card" and basically they said "fine, but its a table with a $3K minimum" I believe.  Friend is like "perfect, (player) you got it, yea?"  And he was legitimately taken aback and replied "no dude, I can't afford that".  He was probably making around $400K, minus taxes, agent fees, assorted other stuff.  A great living?  Absolutely, but not the kind of money to blow $3500 all-in at a bar for no real reason.

Same way, one of my buddies from college moved to Cleveland to be an accountant right after gradution.  He and a friend moved into a nice, but not crazy, 2 BR.  The previous renter?  A Cleveland Cavalier.  He actually got to know the player cause he moved into a different unit in the building and they became friendly.  At first he was like "this is nuts", but it was similar.  Young guy, league minimum salary, and he only lived in Cleveland as he kept another place where he grew up and went to school that he lived in during off seasons and breaks.  So looking at it that way, it also made total sense.

Nobody is crying poverty for these guys, but "low level" pro athletes, especially baseball guys before they get their first real contract, aren't all Bentley cruising without a financial care in the world.  Even more so if they are smart with their money realizing that earning potential may be finite and short.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on January 22, 2020, 08:54:28 PM
Completely off the subject, and I'm not doing this to name drop or impress or anything remotely close to that. My family has been involved with Michael Kopech and his charitable efforts, and we hung out with Michael and his wife Vanessa Morgan (she's an actress on Riverdale). Kopech grew his hair out for months, and today my son helped cut his hair in an effort to raise awareness for pediatric cancer and Ronald McDonald House.

Anyway, what was interesting in talking to Michael and Vanessa was their "normal" life stresses, and not knowing if Michael is going to be on the big league roster to start the year. Trying to figure that out and balance where to live, how to get their 5 dogs to Chicago, finding a place that is dog friendly to live, affording houses in both Phoenix where they live now and buying a place in Chicago. I realize he's a professional athlete and she's an actress, but it was really interesting how genuinely anxious and a level of stress in how they talked about it and trying to become a stable family. I realize they have all kinds of levels of access and luxury that most of us will never know, I think sometimes I forget these guys are normal human beings who have lives.

This may have been a totally pointless post, but Kopech is a legit genuine dude.

Great stuff.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on January 22, 2020, 10:02:51 PM
MU82, I am quite envious that you were able to vote for the HOF for so many years.  Were there any guys you championed (or at least were adamant about that they belonged) that didn't make it?  How about the reverse, guys you thought had no business being elected by the writers but who were?  I'm not talking about the Veteran's committees, who are all over the place with their inductions.

The guy I probably championed the most did make it: Jim Thome. Truly one of the best people I ever covered in any sport, as well as a great hitter. Of guys who didn't make it, I pushed for Jim Edmonds and was disappointed (but not really surprised) that he didn't even get enough votes to stay on the ballot.

Campaigning against guys wasn't really my style, but I do remember saying Baines probably wasn't a HoFer; he ended up gettingg put in thanks to Veterans Committee lobbying by Reinsdorf.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 22, 2020, 10:46:06 PM
Thats awesome.  Glad to hear he's a solid dude. Glad he got free of the Real Housewives-realm drama when he was still basically a kid and into something legit.

Also, so true about balancing and "affording" life.  I have no clue to her earning status, but I can think of two similar stories, especially at that age.  He had a nice bonus, but he's still on the pre-arb pay scale, he's not filthy rich yet, when you're talking all the random fees and expenses, not to mention 2 residences.

In my first few years out of college, I was good friends with a guy whose best friend from childhood played in the NFL.  But we're talking a 5th round pick, primarily special teams player in his 2nd year.  He was in town in the offseason, we went out one night, tried to get into a club in Chicago, it was crazy crowded, one of their other friends was trying to play the "he's an athlete card" and basically they said "fine, but its a table with a $3K minimum" I believe.  Friend is like "perfect, (player) you got it, yea?"  And he was legitimately taken aback and replied "no dude, I can't afford that".  He was probably making around $400K, minus taxes, agent fees, assorted other stuff.  A great living?  Absolutely, but not the kind of money to blow $3500 all-in at a bar for no real reason.

Same way, one of my buddies from college moved to Cleveland to be an accountant right after gradution.  He and a friend moved into a nice, but not crazy, 2 BR.  The previous renter?  A Cleveland Cavalier.  He actually got to know the player cause he moved into a different unit in the building and they became friendly.  At first he was like "this is nuts", but it was similar.  Young guy, league minimum salary, and he only lived in Cleveland as he kept another place where he grew up and went to school that he lived in during off seasons and breaks.  So looking at it that way, it also made total sense.

Nobody is crying poverty for these guys, but "low level" pro athletes, especially baseball guys before they get their first real contract, aren't all Bentley cruising without a financial care in the world.  Even more so if they are smart with their money realizing that earning potential may be finite and short.

We met Kopech two years ago when he was dating Biermann (my wife is a huge fan, and I got Brielle to personalize a Sox hat with her autograph and “don’t be tardy” inscription). Kopech is a totally different guy now, his self awareness is really impressive for someone his age.

To your point about lower earning athletes, when I worked for the Bears in the early 2000’s, my job at their 2002 fan convention was to escort players from the players suite area, to their autograph area. The suite had ice cold beer bottles that one could just grab out of an open cooler. I saw Paul Edinger walking around with a backpack on, and a few minutes later, noticed he was putting beer after beer after beer into his backpack. These were glass bottles (probably MGD if I recall), so there was a definite clank. He ended up walking out with probably 7-10 beers.

I always remembered thinking “why would a pro athlete need to do that?”, and realized it’s free beer and seemed easy for anyone to do.

Also, hopefully someone finds this funny...whatever you picture Bruce Levine to be like in real life, I can assure you that’s exactly how he is.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on January 23, 2020, 07:05:17 AM
Dish:

Great stuff on Kopech. I heard he was a very nice person.

And exactly right on Bruce Levine.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 23, 2020, 09:52:23 AM
To your point about lower earning athletes, when I worked for the Bears in the early 2000’s, my job at their 2002 fan convention was to escort players from the players suite area, to their autograph area. The suite had ice cold beer bottles that one could just grab out of an open cooler. I saw Paul Edinger walking around with a backpack on, and a few minutes later, noticed he was putting beer after beer after beer into his backpack. These were glass bottles (probably MGD if I recall), so there was a definite clank. He ended up walking out with probably 7-10 beers.

This is a great story - Paul Edinger takes up more space than he should in the "remember useless junk but not meaningful things" part of my brain because of how he approached the ball.  If I've been drinking and am pretending to kick something, I'm probably running up to it like Paul Edinger, so this all meshes well.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 26, 2020, 10:50:18 PM
Hahahaha.  Verlander.  Apparently he thinks the Astros are "technologically and analytically advanced"


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/justin-verlander-laughed-saying-astros-122334554.html
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: FruitStandJim on January 27, 2020, 06:47:54 AM
Completely off the subject, and I'm not doing this to name drop or impress or anything remotely close to that. My family has been involved with Michael Kopech and his charitable efforts, and we hung out with Michael and his wife Vanessa Morgan (she's an actress on Riverdale). Kopech grew his hair out for months, and today my son helped cut his hair in an effort to raise awareness for pediatric cancer and Ronald McDonald House.

Anyway, what was interesting in talking to Michael and Vanessa was their "normal" life stresses, and not knowing if Michael is going to be on the big league roster to start the year. Trying to figure that out and balance where to live, how to get their 5 dogs to Chicago, finding a place that is dog friendly to live, affording houses in both Phoenix where they live now and buying a place in Chicago. I realize he's a professional athlete and she's an actress, but it was really interesting how genuinely anxious and a level of stress in how they talked about it and trying to become a stable family. I realize they have all kinds of levels of access and luxury that most of us will never know, I think sometimes I forget these guys are normal human beings who have lives.

This may have been a totally pointless post, but Kopech is a legit genuine dude.

As a White Sox fan (I do like the Brewers too) this was cool to read, thanks. Kopech definitely seems like a real chill/cool guy. Can't wait for him to be on the big league roster this year and to see how he bounces back.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 27, 2020, 08:30:33 AM
Castellanos signs with Cincinnati.  That OF defense may be ugly, but they've added a lot of lunch to that lineup this offseason.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 27, 2020, 09:27:48 AM
Castellanos signs with Cincinnati.  That OF defense may be ugly, but they've added a lot of lunch to that lineup this offseason.
I think it it's a four-team toss up in the NL Central, (everyone other than PIT).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 27, 2020, 10:42:58 AM
Castellanos signs with Cincinnati.  That OF defense may be ugly, but they've added a lot of lunch to that lineup this offseason.

They're gonna be a hungry team this year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 27, 2020, 11:19:03 AM
A little surprised Cin went four years for Castellanos, that's a long contract for him with an NL team.  I'd see if Jesse Winker could be had now with that outfield getting crowded, he had a rough year last year but has good skills and should be cheaper to acquire than Nick Senzel, who the team is also reportedly shopping now.  Maybe I'll eat these words, but signing Castellanos and then trading Senzel doesn't seem a great strategy.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 27, 2020, 01:42:47 PM
A little surprised Cin went four years for Castellanos, that's a long contract for him with an NL team.  I'd see if Jesse Winker could be had now with that outfield getting crowded, he had a rough year last year but has good skills and should be cheaper to acquire than Nick Senzel, who the team is also reportedly shopping now.  Maybe I'll eat these words, but signing Castellanos and then trading Senzel doesn't seem a great strategy.

If it results in Castellanos and Lindor in Cincinnati, it would be difficult to argue. 

Castellanos also reportedly received multiple opt outs.  To me, this is Scott Boras magic.  It seems like there were very few if any, realistic suitors for Castellanos, and his closest comparison received a 1 year deal. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 27, 2020, 01:58:59 PM
D-Backs pick up Starling Marte from the Pirates for a couple of top 10 prospects.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on January 27, 2020, 03:02:48 PM
In the launch pad that is Cincinnati, he may hit 30 homers this year.    And with the tiny outfield, his defensive range won't be an issue.    Still have a bobblehead of his when he played single A ball.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on January 27, 2020, 04:14:00 PM
In the launch pad that is Cincinnati, he may hit 30 homers this year.    And with the tiny outfield, his defensive range won't be an issue.    Still have a bobblehead of his when he played single A ball.

If you had one in a Mud Hens uni, then I'd be impressed.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jesmu84 on January 27, 2020, 04:26:40 PM
https://twitter.com/JimBowdenGM/status/1221826513496084481?s=20
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 11:01:02 AM
Looks like the Astros are hiring Dusty Baker.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 11:05:02 AM
Looks like the Astros are hiring Dusty Baker.


Could you hire a guy who is more anti-Astros than Dusty?  It's almost comical.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 28, 2020, 11:10:24 AM

Could you hire a guy who is more anti-Astros than Dusty?  It's almost comical.

When they were conducting interviews, I mentioned to a buddy that the Astros hiring Dusty after how they've been operating almost looks like self-imposed sanctions.  Verlander is going to pitch 300 innings this year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MDMU04 on January 28, 2020, 11:12:34 AM
Looks like the Astros are hiring Dusty Baker.

I cannot confirm or deny that this is part of the MLB punishment...
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 28, 2020, 11:38:27 AM
And Jeremy Jeffres to the Cubs.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on January 28, 2020, 11:46:49 AM
And Jeremy Jeffres to the Cubs.

Looks like a low-risk signing for the Cubs. He’s not been great outside of Milwaukee. Hopefully that continues.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 28, 2020, 01:35:15 PM
Looks like a low-risk signing for the Cubs. He’s not been great outside of Milwaukee. Hopefully that continues.

It is kind of crazy, since Souza still isn't official, I think this is the Cubs first major league free agent signing. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 28, 2020, 01:41:00 PM

Could you hire a guy who is more anti-Astros than Dusty?  It's almost comical.

Seems like a perfect hire actually.  He will be able to handle the media, which will be a complete circus.  And he should command immediate respect from the players. 

Is he into analytics?  Probably not.  But the Astros need stability.  Dusty should give them that, and also, who knows what the Astros front office strategy will be, as their GM and Assistant GM are no longer there.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 01:44:10 PM
Seems like a perfect hire actually.  He will be able to handle the media, which will be a complete circus.  And he should command immediate respect from the players. 

Is he into analytics?  Probably not.  But the Astros need stability.  Dusty should give them that, and also, who knows what the Astros front office strategy will be, as their GM and Assistant GM are no longer there.


Counterpoint:  he's not very good.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on January 28, 2020, 01:46:23 PM
Could be worse.  Could be Ausmus.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 28, 2020, 01:53:00 PM
It is kind of crazy, since Souza still isn't official, I think this is the Cubs first major league free agent signing.

For a team with no money to spend, Jeffress and Souza are good high upside lottery tickets. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 28, 2020, 01:53:11 PM

Counterpoint:  he's not very good.

He is a 3 time manager of the year, .532 winning % (in 3500 games), and led teams to the playoffs 9 times (at least once with each of the teams he has managed).  But I'm sure you're right.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 28, 2020, 01:54:20 PM
For a team with no money to spend that doesn't want to spend money, Jeffress and Souza are good high upside lottery tickets.

Is that what you meant?

They lost Kintzler, Strop and Cishek and filled those spots with Jeffress.  If I were a Cub fan, that bullpen would be concerning.  Even if you are banking on a return to from from Kimbrel.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 02:06:22 PM
He is a 3 time manager of the year, .532 winning % (in 3500 games), and led teams to the playoffs 9 times (at least once with each of the teams he has managed).  But I'm sure you're right.


He's been fortunate to manage good teams and not f*ck them up terribly.  Look, if you want Dusty managing your team, go ahead.  I'll hire someone with a brain and beat you consistently. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 02:17:35 PM
He is a 3 time manager of the year, .532 winning % (in 3500 games), and led teams to the playoffs 9 times (at least once with each of the teams he has managed).  But I'm sure you're right.

This is correct.
The irony is that the reason some people think Dusty isn't good is because his teams haven't had a ton of playoff success.... while failing to recognize that he's been a manager who consistently gets teams to the playoffs.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 02:54:16 PM
This is correct.
The irony is that the reason some people think Dusty isn't good is because his teams haven't had a ton of playoff success.... while failing to recognize that he's been a manager who consistently gets teams to the playoffs.


He generally gets good teams to the playoffs.  Where they fall apart.

Then the next guy comes in and does things like lead them to a World Series championship two years later (Nationals) or increase their number of wins (Giants, Cubs)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 28, 2020, 03:36:12 PM

He's been fortunate to manage good teams and not f*ck them up terribly.  Look, if you want Dusty managing your team, go ahead.  I'll hire someone with a brain and beat you consistently.

Interesting, because all the other real MLB GMs hiring managers have only been able to beat Dusty's teams 47% of the time.  Over a pretty significant sample size.  I'm sure you'd do better though.   You're ever so much smarter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 28, 2020, 03:40:25 PM

He's been fortunate to manage good teams and not f*ck them up terribly.

And isn't this probably the Astros goal exactly?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 03:45:34 PM

He generally gets good teams to the playoffs.  Where they fall apart.

Then the next guy comes in and does things like lead them to a World Series championship two years later (Nationals) or increase their number of wins (Giants, Cubs)

Some might suggest there were some key differences between the 2019 Nationals roster and their 2016 and 2017 rosters (aka Corbin and Soto, plus full seasons of Eaton and Robles).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 28, 2020, 04:16:44 PM
You guys are White Sox fans, right?  If it were possible, would you want Dusty Baker to manage the White Sox this season? 

Rick Renteria is lifetime 274-373, and has never lost fewer than 89 games in a season.  (I would take Renteria over Baker).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 04:19:24 PM
You guys are White Sox fans, right?  If it were possible, would you want Dusty Baker to manage the White Sox this season? 

Rick Renteria is lifetime 274-373, and has never lost fewer than 89 games in a season.  (I would take Renteria over Baker).

No, but not because he's a bad manager.
I don't want him anywhere near the White Sox young  - and in nearly every case surgically repaired - arms.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 04:28:47 PM
No, but not because he's a bad manager.
I don't want him anywhere near the White Sox young  - and in nearly every case surgically repaired - arms.


LOL.  "He's a good manager, but not for my team."
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 28, 2020, 04:30:30 PM
Interesting, because all the other real MLB GMs hiring managers have only been able to beat Dusty's teams 47% of the time.  Over a pretty significant sample size.  I'm sure you'd do better though.   You're ever so much smarter.


I'm glad you like Dusty and think he's wonderful.  That tells me all I need to know about your baseball opinions.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 28, 2020, 04:31:14 PM

LOL.  "He's a good manager, but not for my team."

I know, I know. Context can be a mentally taxing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 28, 2020, 05:26:28 PM

I'm glad you like Dusty and think he's wonderful.  That tells me all I need to know about your baseball opinions.

And you sticking to an ignorant I'll for.wd opinion in light of facts is completely in character for you, so I guess I shouldn't expect differently.

I have no special affinity for Dusty.  I'm inclined to hate him as a former Cub.  But to say he's a bad manager is stupid.  How many other managers have led 4 different teams to the playoffs?  You can't be the bumbling moron you paint him to be and do that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 09:37:15 AM
Is that what you meant?

They lost Kintzler, Strop and Cishek and filled those spots with Jeffress.  If I were a Cub fan, that bullpen would be concerning.  Even if you are banking on a return to from from Kimbrel.

The bullpen is absolutely a concern.  Now, in the 2nd half Wick and Ryan were very good but there's obviously not much of a track record there.  They have spots locked up though.  Basically, they're going with a volume approach.  Throwing a lot of high-upside, high-risk options against the wall and seeing what will stick. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 09:40:12 AM
Bryant loses his grievance.  I still have a hard time believing it took this long to come to a decision.

We'll see if the trade discussions pick up now that we know he has two years of control left.   With Ozuna signing in Atlanta that removes one suitor that made a lot of sense.  San Diego is seemingly focused on Betts and the Dodgers seemed more interested in Lindor and are unlikely to move any top prospects.  The market just doesn't seem to be there so I Hope KB is in the Cubs lineup opening day. 

Better to reassess this summer than to sell low. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on January 29, 2020, 10:20:46 AM
Dusty Baker has made a career of stepping into difficult situations, getting a team to believe in themselves and each other, and having good seasons. He's very good at infusing an "us against the world" mentality. Ballplayers historically have liked playing for him, at least at first. He excels at ego management, which is the most difficult part of being a big-league manager.

And he wins - usually very quickly - every place he's been, no matter how bad the team had been previously.

1992 SF 72-90
1993 SF 103-59 (Baker's first year)

2002 Cubs 67-95
2003 Cubs 88-74 (Baker's first year)

2007 Cin 72-90
2008 Cin 74-88 (Baker's first year)
2009 Cin 78-84
2010 Cin 91-71

2015 Wash 83-79
2016 Wash 95-67 (Baker's first year)

Average improvement in his first season: +16.5 games. He also took each franchise to the postseason at least once.

He usually has flamed out after a couple/few years, but regardless of what one feels about his strategic decisions, it's hard to look at the body of evidence above and deny that he has been a turnaround specialist.

Baker's use of starting pitchers also changed as the years went on and it became more the norm to coddle them. By the time he got to Washington, he didn't "abuse" Scherzer, Strasberg, Gonzalez, etc. Maybe that was upper management telling him what to do; if so, he obeyed orders - and won 2 division titles.

Houston isn't really a turnaround situation, it's a "crisis management" situation, and I wouldn't be surprised if he does well. Given that they cheated their way to 107 wins last season, I'm guessing that no matter how well he does, his streak of improving upon a team's prior-season record will end.

Disclosure: I know and like Dusty Baker.

That disclosure doesn't change the facts: Every single time he has been hired, the team has won more games the following season - in 3 of the 4 cases, significantly more games.

I wouldn't hire him to bring along a young team involved in a "process" situation, like the Astros were 5+ years ago. But if I had a veteran team that needed a jolt, I would not hesitate to hire him as manager.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 29, 2020, 10:49:42 AM
Houston isn't really a turnaround situation, it's a "crisis management" situation, and I wouldn't be surprised if he does well. Given that they cheated their way to 107 wins last season, I'm guessing that no matter how well he does, his streak of improving upon a team's prior-season record will end.

Disclosure: I know and like Dusty Baker.

I think this is all kind of the key to why Dusty is probably going to get this job.  82's feelings toward Dusty seem pretty universal in the industry (PS - its cool that you know him personally).  Even the people who don't think he's a good modern manager don't dislike him. 

Regardless of how much Jim Crane know about the cheating scandal, he just wants all of this to go away.  Their front office has been in the news for reprehensible behavior over the last year even before the cheating scandal, and Dusty is one of the few guys who is pretty much beyond reproach.  If the Astros win 95 games this year, people won't be happy, but its also going to be a lot harder to accuse them of still cheating with Dusty on the bench.  I think this is an image hire as much as a baseball one, and that's probably a good thing for the game and for the Astros in the long view.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 11:07:38 AM
Dusty Baker has made a career of stepping into difficult situations, getting a team to believe in themselves and each other, and having good seasons. He's very good at infusing an "us against the world" mentality. Ballplayers historically have liked playing for him, at least at first. He excels at ego management, which is the most difficult part of being a big-league manager.

And he wins - usually very quickly - every place he's been, no matter how bad the team had been previously.

1992 SF 72-90
1993 SF 103-59 (Baker's first year)

2002 Cubs 67-95
2003 Cubs 88-74 (Baker's first year)

2007 Cin 72-90
2008 Cin 74-88 (Baker's first year)
2009 Cin 78-84
2010 Cin 91-71

2015 Wash 83-79
2016 Wash 95-67 (Baker's first year)

Average improvement in his first season: +16.5 games. He also took each franchise to the postseason at least once.

He usually has flamed out after a couple/few years, but regardless of what one feels about his strategic decisions, it's hard to look at the body of evidence above and deny that he has been a turnaround specialist.

Baker's use of starting pitchers also changed as the years went on and it became more the norm to coddle them. By the time he got to Washington, he didn't "abuse" Scherzer, Strasberg, Gonzalez, etc. Maybe that was upper management telling him what to do; if so, he obeyed orders - and won 2 division titles.

Houston isn't really a turnaround situation, it's a "crisis management" situation, and I wouldn't be surprised if he does well. Given that they cheated their way to 107 wins last season, I'm guessing that no matter how well he does, his streak of improving upon a team's prior-season record will end.

Disclosure: I know and like Dusty Baker.

That disclosure doesn't change the facts: Every single time he has been hired, the team has won more games the following season - in 3 of the 4 cases, significantly more games.

I wouldn't hire him to bring along a young team involved in a "process" situation, like the Astros were 5+ years ago. But if I had a veteran team that needed a jolt, I would not hesitate to hire him as manager.

You get out of here with your statistically based evidence.  That stuff doesn't matter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 11:10:47 AM
Bryant loses his grievance.  I still have a hard time believing it took this long to come to a decision.

We'll see if the trade discussions pick up now that we know he has two years of control left.   With Ozuna signing in Atlanta that removes one suitor that made a lot of sense.  San Diego is seemingly focused on Betts and the Dodgers seemed more interested in Lindor and are unlikely to move any top prospects.  The market just doesn't seem to be there so I Hope KB is in the Cubs lineup opening day. 

Better to reassess this summer than to sell low.

Yeah, why this took until now is baffling.  It really seems that this was the 99% outcome the whole time.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the Cubs.  I cant help but feel that if this decision came in December, it could have really changed the offseason.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on January 29, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
Dusty is the perfectly fine coach and a great hire for the situation.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 11:30:42 AM
So, the Cards were heavily rumored to be interested in Arenado before Bridich said he wouldn't be traded. 

In a it'll never happen scenario, what about Bryant to the Cards for group built around Liberatore and Gorman?  Who says no?

My guess is the Cards but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on January 29, 2020, 11:39:40 AM
Bye Kris.

Nightengale is reporting that the Cubs “lied to him.” Bryant “feels unwanted, underappreciated, and believes the organization openly lied during the arbitration hearing.”
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on January 29, 2020, 11:53:34 AM
I think this is all kind of the key to why Dusty is probably going to get this job.  82's feelings toward Dusty seem pretty universal in the industry (PS - its cool that you know him personally).  Even the people who don't think he's a good modern manager don't dislike him. 

Regardless of how much Jim Crane know about the cheating scandal, he just wants all of this to go away.  Their front office has been in the news for reprehensible behavior over the last year even before the cheating scandal, and Dusty is one of the few guys who is pretty much beyond reproach.  If the Astros win 95 games this year, people won't be happy, but its also going to be a lot harder to accuse them of still cheating with Dusty on the bench.  I think this is an image hire as much as a baseball one, and that's probably a good thing for the game and for the Astros in the long view.

Thanks.

For the record, Dusty and I didn't hang out together. I knew him professionally, had many great conversations with him, both on and off the record, and in both group and 1-on-1 situations. He had a unique breadth of life experiences -- grew up a black man during extremely volatile time for race relations in America, was in the Marine Corps reserves, husband and father, All-Star ballplayer, manager, broadcaster -- that has helped him relate to people from all walks of life.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 01:24:43 PM
Bye Kris.

Nightengale is reporting that the Cubs “lied to him.” Bryant “feels unwanted, underappreciated, and believes the organization openly lied during the arbitration hearing.”

I'd recommend when you see a report from Nightengale that you believe the opposite to be true. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 29, 2020, 01:27:12 PM
I'd recommend when you see a report from Nightengale that you believe the opposite to be true. 

Yep

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4559024002
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 01:28:43 PM
Yeah, why this took until now is baffling.  It really seems that this was the 99% outcome the whole time.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the Cubs.  I cant help but feel that if this decision came in December, it could have really changed the offseason.

The timing has had a massive impact on the offseason.  I understand it's a crucial ruling for the sport but the grievance was filed a long time ago. 

So, the Cards were heavily rumored to be interested in Arenado before Bridich said he wouldn't be traded. 

In a it'll never happen scenario, what about Bryant to the Cards for group built around Liberatore and Gorman?  Who says no?

My guess is the Cards but I'm not sure.

I believe Arenado has full no-trade rights so he can dictate where he wants to end up to an extent.  Passan said he would love to come to the Cubs but I just don't see them being able to 1) Agree to a trade for Arenado while also sending a contract to Colorado to lessen the impact of Arenado's contract and 2) getting an acceptable return for Bryant. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 29, 2020, 01:30:20 PM
I'd recommend when you see a report from Nightengale that you believe the opposite to be true.

Yeah I’m guessing through multiple years of rumors that KB was unhappy with how the Cubs dealt with his service time he suddenly had a come to Jesus moment while filing a grievance and they all just sat around and sang Kumbaya together. He probably signed a lifetime contract extension with the Cubs for $1M/year that will be announced shortly.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 01:33:49 PM
The timing has had a massive impact on the offseason.  I understand it's a crucial ruling for the sport but the grievance was filed a long time ago. 

I believe Arenado has full no-trade rights so he can dictate where he wants to end up to an extent.  Passan said he would love to come to the Cubs but I just don't see them being able to 1) Agree to a trade for Arenado while also sending a contract to Colorado to lessen the impact of Arenado's contract and 2) getting an acceptable return for Bryant.

Are the Cubs pursuing Arenado?  That'd be interesting.  You are right on about his no trade, but it seems like he would be happy to get out of Colorado based on recent comments.  He is a tricky trade candidate, as he has an opt out in 2 years.  If the Rockies do decide to trade him, I wouldn't think they would need to really take bad money back.  He is an elite player, in his prime, basically making market rate. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 01:47:10 PM
Yep

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4559024002

 ::)

Ken Rosenthal an idiot too?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1222527260491767808

If you don't want to click on it, the quote is

"This guy wins.  He does it everywhere he goes.  It is a very clear pattern."




Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 29, 2020, 01:57:14 PM
::)

Ken Rosenthal an idiot too?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1222527260491767808

If you don't want to click on it, the quote is

"This guy wins.  He does it everywhere he goes.  It is a very clear pattern."



Yep. He has a clear pattern of being a bad manager.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 02:05:59 PM
Yeah I’m guessing through multiple years of rumors that KB was unhappy with how the Cubs dealt with his service time he suddenly had a come to Jesus moment while filing a grievance and they all just sat around and sang Kumbaya together. He probably signed a lifetime contract extension with the Cubs for $1M/year that will be announced shortly.

Not remotely what I said but let your irrational Cubs hate flow through you and make you look like a complete idiot. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on January 29, 2020, 02:07:36 PM
Not remotely what I said but let your irrational Cubs hate flow through you and make you look like a complete idiot.

Then please explain to me what the opposite of what Nightengale reported would be?  You told everyone to believe the opposite of what he reports so...

I agree.  Believing that KB is thrilled with the Cubs (the opposite of what Nightengale is reporting) would make me look like a complete idiot.  Thank you for confirming.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 02:09:46 PM
Are the Cubs pursuing Arenado?  That'd be interesting.  You are right on about his no trade, but it seems like he would be happy to get out of Colorado based on recent comments.  He is a tricky trade candidate, as he has an opt out in 2 years.  If the Rockies do decide to trade him, I wouldn't think they would need to really take bad money back.  He is an elite player, in his prime, basically making market rate.

There's been been rumors the Cubs have discussed a Bryant for Arenado trade straight up and other rumors that the Cubs trade Contreras along with Chatwood or Heyward to get some salary relief.  Obviously there should be a lot of skepticism there but you can see how that could make some sense. 

As for Arenado's no-trade clause, he clearly wants out of CO but I think he could use it to dictate where me might want to go, similar to what Stanton did to get out of Miami a couple of years ago.  The opt-out is a key aspect.  Would he be willing to tear up the opt-out to get to a place he wants to be?  It would be difficult to give up talent and take on the contract with the additional risk he could walk in two years. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 02:11:04 PM
Then please explain to me what the opposite of what Nightengale reported would be?  You told everyone to believe the opposite of what he reports so...

I agree.  Believing that KB is thrilled with the Cubs (the opposite of what Nightengale is reporting) would make me look like a complete idiot.  Thank you for confirming.

The opposite is that he didn't say that or doesn't feel that way, which has already been reported.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/2020/1/29/21113460/kris-bryant-cubs-grievance
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 02:11:48 PM

Yep. He has a clear pattern of being a bad manager.

Hahah


https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/1222563813888876552

I'm curious as to you would have hired for the Astros.  Scioscia is another guy that I think would have worked, but I have no idea if he wants to manage again. 

Let me guess?  You'd go with Cora?  Beltran perhaps?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 29, 2020, 02:23:14 PM
Hahah


https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/1222563813888876552

I'm curious as to you would have hired for the Astros.  Scioscia is another guy that I think would have worked, but I have no idea if he wants to manage again. 

Let me guess?  You'd go with Cora?  Beltran perhaps?


Someone not named "Dusty Baker"
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 02:24:53 PM

Someone not named "Dusty Baker"

Wow.  Clever.  And thoughtful.  You add so much to conversations.  Thanks.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 29, 2020, 02:29:49 PM
Wow.  Clever.  And thoughtful.  You add so much to conversations.  Thanks.


If you don't like what I add, don't ask me questions.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 02:40:57 PM

If you don't like what I add, don't ask me questions.

Well, I gave you too much credit, and thought you could maybe carry on a conversation like an adult.  That was my mistake.  I should have know you are all BS and no substance at all.  A mistake I will try not to repeat.  Thanks.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 29, 2020, 02:49:06 PM
Well, I gave you too much credit, and thought you could maybe carry on a conversation like an adult. 

Why would I carry on an adult conversation with someone with a child's intellect? 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on January 29, 2020, 03:05:22 PM
Arenado to the Cubs for Bryant + prospect in the 5-10 range.
Who says no?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on January 29, 2020, 03:28:05 PM
Arenado to the Cubs for Bryant + prospect in the 5-10 range.
Who says no?

Cubs unless they shed a ton of salary first. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 03:30:54 PM
Arenado to the Cubs for Bryant + prospect in the 5-10 range.
Who says no?

I would think the Cubs would do that, I'm not sure about the Rockies.  A guy in the Cubs 5-10 doesn't move the needle that much, and Arenado is such a superior defender. 

There is also the possibility of having Arenado long term, while it seems like a solid bet that Bryant will try free agency.  I think Arenado has more value at this point in time than Bryant and a 5-10.  The wild card could be the status of the Arenado-Bridich relationship.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 29, 2020, 03:37:13 PM
Why would I carry on an adult conversation with someone with a child's intellect?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/67/be/b667befca130dfb77a2caf3cc1990228.gif)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 29, 2020, 03:48:15 PM
I think Bryant will be in the Cubs opening day lineup in 2020. I very much believe he’ll be in another team’s uniform on August 1st.

The rumblings of Bryant’s dissatisfaction with the Cubs have been out there for a while. The Cubs know he won’t agree to a new deal unless it was massive, and the Cubs don’t intend to do that.

The underlining issue that gets touched on by the media some is that behind the scenes, the Cubs have real debt problems they are trying to work through. It doesn’t mean they couldn’t take on a big Bryant (or someone else) contract, they don’t want to incur the additional luxury tax debt.

I still believe the Cubs will be sold in the next 5 years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 29, 2020, 04:11:38 PM
I think Bryant will be in the Cubs opening day lineup in 2020. I very much believe he’ll be in another team’s uniform on August 1st.

The rumblings of Bryant’s dissatisfaction with the Cubs have been out there for a while. The Cubs know he won’t agree to a new deal unless it was massive, and the Cubs don’t intend to do that.

The underlining issue that gets touched on by the media some is that behind the scenes, the Cubs have real debt problems they are trying to work through. It doesn’t mean they couldn’t take on a big Bryant (or someone else) contract, they don’t want to incur the additional luxury tax debt.

I still believe the Cubs will be sold in the next 5 years.

Curious why you think the Cubs will be sold? 

Are you referring to additional debt they took on to fund the renovations?

I just don't see a sale happening. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 29, 2020, 06:51:33 PM
In Dusty, We Busty!

That said, the Baker Family wines are pretty good.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on January 29, 2020, 07:42:10 PM
Curious why you think the Cubs will be sold? 

Are you referring to additional debt they took on to fund the renovations?

I just don't see a sale happening.

Ricketts Family was never going to be long term owners. Their ownership has always been a real estate and media rights play.

They will sell the team and keep a majority stake in MSN, they’ll sell the radio rights. They’ll also be the biggest landlord in Wrigleyville.

I’m ultra confident within five years the Cubs will be sold. MSN was the final piece to get established.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on January 29, 2020, 08:52:37 PM
Ricketts Family was never going to be long term owners. Their ownership has always been a real estate and media rights play.

They will sell the team and keep a majority stake in MSN, they’ll sell the radio rights. They’ll also be the biggest landlord in Wrigleyville.

I’m ultra confident within five years the Cubs will be sold. MSN was the final piece to get established.

Yep. The family has slowly been distancing themselves.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on January 30, 2020, 10:22:39 AM
Yep. The family has slowly been distancing themselves.

They won a WS, broke a curse, and successfully and tastefully renovated one of the most famous stadiums in the world.  I don't disagree with what everyone has said about it being a "short term" business play, but they've managed to accomplish more than many "committed" owners
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on January 30, 2020, 11:18:34 AM
They won a WS, broke a curse, and successfully and tastefully renovated one of the most famous stadiums in the world.  I don't disagree with what everyone has said about it being a "short term" business play, but they've managed to accomplish more than many "committed" owners

They've been great owners, but like Dish said, they aren't in it for the long term.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 30, 2020, 02:31:10 PM
The Reds have signed Pedro Stop.  1 yr/ 1.8 million.  Pretty low risk move, even if he never gets back to what he was before.  That's a decent price even if he is just a middle innings guy. 

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on January 30, 2020, 02:38:30 PM
Arenado to the Cubs for Bryant + prospect in the 5-10 range.
Who says no?


In a vacuum I like it.  As others mentioned, it's all about the finances.  Adding Arenado and only giving up Bryant puts them not only well into the luxury but also dangerously close to the second tier luxury threshold, which comes with an even steeper penalty. There's no way this would happen without CO eating at least some portion of it.
I tend to think, like Dish said, Bryant will be in the Cubs lineup day one.  However, there's so much sentiment coming out that this admin is really set on big changes . Should be an interesting couple fo weeks.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 30, 2020, 02:40:57 PM

In a vacuum I like it.  As others mentioned, it's all about the finances.  Adding Arenado and only giving up Bryant puts them not only well into the luxury but also dangerously close to the second tier luxury threshold, which comes with an even steeper penalty. There's no way this would happen without CO eating at least some portion of it.
I tend to think, like Dish said, Bryant will be in the Cubs lineup day one.  However, there's so much sentiment coming out that this admin is really set on big changes . Should be an interesting couple fo weeks.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/cubs/5-potential-kris-bryant-trade-packages-0#slide-1

Take it for what its worth, which isn't much.  But with this speculation at least, hard to see any of those deals being agreeable to both sides. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 30, 2020, 03:35:45 PM
The Reds have signed Pedro Stop.  1 yr/ 1.8 million.  Pretty low risk move, even if he never gets back to what he was before.  That's a decent price even if he is just a middle innings guy.
I guess the beef was with Puig, (who is no longer on CIN), but I always find it interesting when a "villain" joins your team.
(https://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/yasiel-puig-pedro-strop.jpg)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on January 30, 2020, 04:58:12 PM
Would’ve kept Strop for that money. Bummer. Won’t hear about his hat anymore though which is nice.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on January 30, 2020, 06:02:35 PM
Would’ve kept Strop for that money. Bummer. Won’t hear about his hat anymore though which is nice.

Yes. My 65 year old father and lifelong fan didn’t like him solely because of that hat.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 30, 2020, 06:06:14 PM
Who knows what happens, but the rumors about Betts getting traded seem to be picking up steam, with the Dodgers and Padres both in on him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 31, 2020, 09:56:09 AM
Would’ve kept Strop for that money. Bummer. Won’t hear about his hat anymore though which is nice.

One of the best Cubs relievers of all time.  I think he still has something left in the tank.  I'll miss you and your hat, Pedro. 

(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZwRheCJC3ZQMGsS06H/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 31, 2020, 10:07:39 AM
One of the best Cubs relievers of all time. 
(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZwRheCJC3ZQMGsS06H/giphy.gif)

Huh? 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 31, 2020, 11:22:36 AM
This is an impressive effort.

http://signstealingscandal.com/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on January 31, 2020, 11:34:20 AM
This is an impressive effort.

http://signstealingscandal.com/

And keep in mind that only tracks the garbage can bangs.... Reportedly, the sign for fastballs was no sound.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 31, 2020, 12:16:34 PM
Huh?

Do some research, Doc. 

Strop/Cubs All-Time Relief Rankings:

WAR: 5.7 (4th)
ERA: 2.90 (10th)
ERA-: 72 (8th)
K%: 28.1% (3rd)
AVG: .183 (3rd)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 31, 2020, 12:54:55 PM
Do some research, Doc. 

Strop/Cubs All-Time Relief Rankings:

WAR: 5.7 (4th)
ERA: 2.90 (10th)
ERA-: 72 (8th)
K%: 28.1% (3rd)
AVG: .183 (3rd)

Highest save year 13, last season. Good middle reliever/set up guy? Yeah at times. All time great? Not close when you have Hall of Famers in front of him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on January 31, 2020, 01:11:30 PM
Highest save year 13, last season.
I think that was '18; in '19 he had a very bad year.  I think Strop is "one of" the best Cubs relievers ever, but his decline in 2019 was very concerning.  He lost 2 MPH on his fastball from 18 to 19, (and is down 5 mph from his peak).

I wish him the best of luck.  Bruce Levine on The Score called him one of the best clubhouse presences ever.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 31, 2020, 01:25:18 PM
I think that was '18; in '19 he had a very bad year.  I think Strop is "one of" the best Cubs relievers ever, but his decline in 2019 was very concerning.  He lost 2 MPH on his fastball from 18 to 19, (and is down 5 mph from his peak).

I wish him the best of luck.  Bruce Levine on The Score called him one of the best clubhouse presences ever.

Yep. Sorry. 10 last year, my bad. What a steal of a trade?

That said, Strop is not in the Big Lee and Sutter range of all timers. Phil Reagan was even better perhaps. I would even say Strop in his best years couldn’t touch Marmol in his best years (and Marmol drove me crazy as a closer).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on January 31, 2020, 01:34:08 PM
Highest save year 13, last season. Good middle reliever/set up guy? Yeah at times. All time great? Not close when you have Hall of Famers in front of him.

Clearly not basing it on saves.  Nor am I saying he is anywhere near the class of Bruce Sutter or Lee Smith (16.1 and 14.9 fWAR respectively). 

He was however consistently excellent as a set up man for 5 straight years and is 4th all-time in fWAR of Cubs relievers.  Top 5 or top 10 in multiple other categories.  5 straight seasons with ERAs between 2.21 and 2.91, all but one of which were when the Cubs were playing meaningful baseball.  With the volatility of relief pitching that consistency is extremely impressive.

By all objective measures he is absolutely one of the Cubs best relievers of all time. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on February 01, 2020, 12:14:23 AM
Strop was a big part of some very good teams. His contributions are always slightly weakened in story just by being the weaker of the two brought over in the Baltimore trade. (Arietta the other).
Still, he did a great job for the organization. Maybe our fate a couple years back would’ve been different if he doesn’t go down trying to beat out a ground ball.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on February 04, 2020, 08:16:10 PM
Looks like Mookie will be wearing Dodger blue.  Huge addition.

Edit: Price, Verdugo and a 3rd team involved.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on February 04, 2020, 08:40:45 PM
Looks like Mookie will be wearing Dodger blue.  Huge addition.

Edit: Price, Verdugo and a 3rd team involved.

@Ken_Rosenthal: Joc Pederson would go from #Dodgers to #Angels if blockbuster is completed, source tells The Athletic.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on February 04, 2020, 09:15:34 PM
Wow.  The Twins traded their best pitching prospect for Kenta Maeda. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on February 05, 2020, 07:03:57 AM
This trade kills me.  Mookie was the most fun player to watch in my 50+ years of Red Sox fandom.  Happy to be rid of Price, though I wonder how much of the contract the Red Sox will have to eat.  I think Betts will not put up the same WAR numbers in LA.  He was made for Fenway Park and his defensive WAR will take a big hit moving out of Fenway.  That huge right field gave him an opportunity to run down and catch a lot of balls that aren't available elsewhere and the low wall allows him to rob an HR or 3 every year on what are actually somewhat routine catches.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on February 05, 2020, 07:32:45 AM
Dombrowski left a team with a depleted farm system and highly paid free agents that needed moved to restore fiscal sanity.   Weird.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on February 05, 2020, 08:19:00 AM
Wow.  The Twins traded their best pitching prospect for Kenta Maeda.

Really surprised the Twins weren't able to drag at least a lottery ticket prospect or two from LA's system for coughing up the quality of prospect Boston needed to pull the trigger. Maeda's contract is probably more valuable than his skill set.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on February 05, 2020, 08:56:41 AM
This trade kills me.  Mookie was the most fun player to watch in my 50+ years of Red Sox fandom.  Happy to be rid of Price, though I wonder how much of the contract the Red Sox will have to eat.  I think Betts will not put up the same WAR numbers in LA.  He was made for Fenway Park and his defensive WAR will take a big hit moving out of Fenway.  That huge right field gave him an opportunity to run down and catch a lot of balls that aren't available elsewhere and the low wall allows him to rob an HR or 3 every year on what are actually somewhat routine catches.

I saw $50 million from the Sox to the Dodgers,  but that was last night when it was still breaking.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Cheeks on February 05, 2020, 09:09:46 AM
Not sure Pederson stays...Angels want to bring up their stud minor leaguer and the other two outfield spots are taken.  More trades ahead?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on February 05, 2020, 11:23:52 AM
Not sure Pederson stays...Angels want to bring up their stud minor leaguer and the other two outfield spots are taken.  More trades ahead?

He isn't a perfect fit that's for sure.  He can keep the spot warm for Adell, and then I'd guess he platoons at 1B with Pujols. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on February 05, 2020, 12:28:44 PM
This trade kills me.  Mookie was the most fun player to watch in my 50+ years of Red Sox fandom.  Happy to be rid of Price, though I wonder how much of the contract the Red Sox will have to eat.  I think Betts will not put up the same WAR numbers in LA.  He was made for Fenway Park and his defensive WAR will take a big hit moving out of Fenway.  That huge right field gave him an opportunity to run down and catch a lot of balls that aren't available elsewhere and the low wall allows him to rob an HR or 3 every year on what are actually somewhat routine catches.


$$$ are more important than winning.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on February 05, 2020, 01:01:15 PM

$$$ are more important than winning.

That's definitely a factor, but not the only factor.
Betts made it be known he was testing free agency next offseason and the Red Sox had reason to believe they weren't going to be able to keep him. So rather than get a late first-round pick in the 2021 draft as compensation, they bit the bullet and dealt him for a pair of more valuable assets.
Bitter pill for Red Sox fans, but there was more to it than the team being cheap.
 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on February 05, 2020, 01:22:52 PM
Really surprised the Twins weren't able to drag at least a lottery ticket prospect or two from LA's system for coughing up the quality of prospect Boston needed to pull the trigger. Maeda's contract is probably more valuable than his skill set.

Burrows, I actually think the Twins did what they needed. The window to win is usually pretty short for small market teams. They needed someone to help them win now - and got it in Maeda. Graterol may or may not become a good pitcher in the Majors - I think he will end up being a closer - but he wasn't going to help Minny this year.

For a big money team to give up Graterol for Maeda would be awful - for Minny it works. At least, IMHO.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CTWarrior on February 05, 2020, 02:11:04 PM
That's definitely a factor, but not the only factor.
Betts made it be known he was testing free agency next offseason and the Red Sox had reason to believe they weren't going to be able to keep him. So rather than get a late first-round pick in the 2021 draft as compensation, they bit the bullet and dealt him for a pair of more valuable assets.
Bitter pill for Red Sox fans, but there was more to it than the team being cheap.
There is some value he would have taken to hedge against an injury this year (probbaly between $36M and $40M) but there is no way Red Sox would have ponied up that kind of money.  The Red Sox probably did the right thing, because they got themselves under the luxury tax threshold (which makes it easier to bid for Mookie next year, if that is the plan.)  I just hate that I won't get to watch Mookie next year.  Understand it, but hate it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on February 05, 2020, 07:45:30 PM
Burrows, I actually think the Twins did what they needed. The window to win is usually pretty short for small market teams. They needed someone to help them win now - and got it in Maeda. Graterol may or may not become a good pitcher in the Majors - I think he will end up being a closer - but he wasn't going to help Minny this year.

For a big money team to give up Graterol for Maeda would be awful - for Minny it works. At least, IMHO.

It doesn't matter what the Twins do as they never breast the Yankees in October.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on February 05, 2020, 08:21:16 PM
It doesn't matter what the Twins do as they never breast the Yankees in October.

Meet Dr. Freud
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on February 06, 2020, 09:10:35 AM
The window to win is usually pretty short for small market teams. They needed someone to help them win now - and got it in Maeda.
The Twins apparently didn't get the memo that a team in their own division has already won the offseason.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on February 06, 2020, 10:05:06 AM
Burrows, I actually think the Twins did what they needed. The window to win is usually pretty short for small market teams. They needed someone to help them win now - and got it in Maeda. Graterol may or may not become a good pitcher in the Majors - I think he will end up being a closer - but he wasn't going to help Minny this year.

For a big money team to give up Graterol for Maeda would be awful - for Minny it works. At least, IMHO.

I agree, particularly with the bolded. And I don't hate the move, I'm admittedly nitpicking.  You'll never be mad to have a guy like Kenta Maeda around on a contract like that. I just question whether Maeda is the best use of prospect capital like Graterol. Maeda is good, and his swingmaniness is more valuable in today's MLB than ever before - but his skills are only pretty good. His contract is the most valuable thing about him - four more years at $3M base and easily manipulatable incentives.  That seems to be a "stretch the window" kind of trade more than a targeted strike to win now, compared to other guys who might have been available for 1-2 years for a prospect of Graterol's character (Graterol is immediately listed as Boston's top prospect). 

Maeda is a nice guy to have around over 162 games, but I'm not sure if he helps you in the playoffs.  If I were the Twins, I think I would have been more likely to wait on trading Graterol and then target someone that can help you win playoff series. The Dodgers haven't started Maeda in a playoff game in either of the past two years, and he only threw 11 playoff innings for them in that span. Heck, its very possible Graterol throws more playoff innings for the 2020 Twins than Maeda does. But throw everything i say out the window if Graterol is actually broken, as those concerns seem to be holding up the deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on February 06, 2020, 08:16:23 PM
#notdonedeal?

@JonHeyman: Red Sox are said to be trying to reconfigure the part of the Betts 3-team deal with the Twins (meaning more than Graterol). While there’s still hope the mega deal gets done in some form, some involved are now suggesting it’s not a certainty.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Eldon on February 07, 2020, 10:46:07 PM
Astros cheating scandal updates

Hammerin Hank says lifetime ban for all players involved (I agree):

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/hank-aaron-thinks-players-involved-in-astros-sign-stealing-scandal-should-be-banned-for-life/


New details on sign stealing (sh*t goes deeeeeeep):

https://sports.yahoo.com/explosive-new-details-emerge-about-the-astros-cheating-scandal-000636683.html
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on February 07, 2020, 11:05:54 PM
Astros cheating scandal updates


New details on sign stealing (sh*t goes deeeeeeep):

https://sports.yahoo.com/explosive-new-details-emerge-about-the-astros-cheating-scandal-000636683.html


This shows how clueless Manfred is. He is cut from the same cloth (dirty linen) as Selig. Not only should there be deeper penalties for Houston and Boston, but Manfred should also bear the brunt of this. Fire the guy and find someone with integrity - if the owners can be convinced that integrity is a good thing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on February 09, 2020, 07:01:59 PM
What a strange situation. Sox/Dodgers/Twins trade finally goes through and Pederson to Angels falls through. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on February 10, 2020, 05:37:41 PM
Is MLB trying to make the game ... gulp ... fun?

Imagine a team picking its playoff opponent. Think about Brian Cashman and the Yankees deciding whether to face the Red Sox or avoid them in the first round of the postseason. All on live TV.
Well, it is probably coming soon to the major leagues.
MLB is seriously weighing a move from five to seven playoff teams in each league beginning in 2022, The Post has learned.
In this concept, the team with the best record in each league would receive a bye to avoid the wild-card round and go directly to the Division Series. The two other division winners and the wild card with the next best record would each host all three games in a best-of-three wild-card round. So the bottom three wild cards would have no first-round home games.
The division winner with the second-best record in a league would then get the first pick of its opponent from those lower three wild cards, then the other division winner would pick, leaving the last two wild cards to play each other.


https://nypost.com/2020/02/10/mlb-plotting-playoff-expansion-with-reality-tv-twist/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on February 10, 2020, 05:48:23 PM
Picking your opponent could be kinda neat, but we absolutely don't need more playoff teams 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 10, 2020, 05:52:37 PM
Picking your opponent could be kinda neat, but we absolutely don't need more playoff teams 

Im all for more playoff teams if they shorten the season a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on February 10, 2020, 06:47:45 PM
I've thought for years that the NCAA should let teams that qualify for the tournament pick their first round opponents on live tv during the selection show. Announce the 68 teams that qualify, name the play in teams, and then let the #1 ranked team pick their opponent, and then so on.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on February 10, 2020, 06:57:05 PM
Im all for more playoff teams if they shorten the season a couple of weeks.
The MLB Playoffs have never had the "second season" feel that the NHL or NBA does, and for that reason making the playoffs in baseball has always been at least somewhat or a success.  I would personally prefer MLB keeps it that way.

My favorite MLB playoff format is still when the winners of the East played the winners of the West to represent the league in the WS, (1969 to 1997, I think)  The '82 Brewers, '83 White Sox, and '84 Cubs are still revered because making the playoffs was a big deal.  I don't think WC teams like the '15 Pirates or '16 Orioles will be remembered with such pride.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on February 10, 2020, 08:34:24 PM
Only a matter of time, I suppose.
Former MLB pitcher sues Astros, alleging sign-stealing cut short his career. Gave up four runs to the Astros while pitching in relief for the Blue Jays, never played in the majors again.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/10/us/mlb-pitcher-mike-bolsinger-lawsuit-houston-astros-spt/index.html
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on February 10, 2020, 10:42:02 PM
Upon reporting to spring training, Mike Fiers actually told ESPN that he didn't know why they or any other media outlet would want to talk to him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on February 10, 2020, 10:44:03 PM
Only a matter of time, I suppose.
Former MLB pitcher sues Astros, alleging sign-stealing cut short his career. Gave up four runs to the Astros while pitching in relief for the Blue Jays, never played in the majors again.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/10/us/mlb-pitcher-mike-bolsinger-lawsuit-houston-astros-spt/index.html

Who is he gonna sue for the times he sucked  before this happened?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: TSmith34 on February 11, 2020, 08:25:42 AM
Who is he gonna sue for the times he sucked  before this happened?
And after.  I mean, show that you belong and you'll get another call-up.

Dumb lawsuit.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on February 11, 2020, 12:04:56 PM
Last year, PECTOA projected the following win totals for the NL Central:
MIL 89 Actual= 89
STL 89 Actual= 91
CHC 84 Actual =84
CIN 84 Actual =79
PIT 66 Actual =69

The projections for this year are:
CIN 86
CHC 85
STL 80
MIL 79
PIT 70
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUEng92 on February 11, 2020, 06:53:28 PM
Last year, PECTOA projected the following win totals for the NL Central:
MIL 89 Actual= 89
STL 89 Actual= 91
CHC 84 Actual =84
CIN 84 Actual =79
PIT 66 Actual =69

The projections for this year are:
CIN 86
CHC 85
STL 80
MIL 79
PIT 70

C’mon man, at least type Spoiler Alert when you tell us what is going to happen this season.  Now I’m gonna have to find something else to do all summer
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: TSmith34 on February 11, 2020, 07:08:13 PM
C’mon man, at least type Spoiler Alert when you tell us what is going to happen this season.  Now I’m gonna have to find something else to do all summer
I predict Braun will be dealt to a contender  before July 31st.  Just can't see Counsell and Stearns pulling another rabbit out of the hat this year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on February 11, 2020, 07:39:35 PM
I predict Braun will be dealt to a contender  before July 31st.  Just can't see Counsell and Stearns pulling another rabbit out of the hat this year.
That's a bold prediction.  Braun is set to make $17M this year, and had a WAR of 1.8 last season.  He can block a trade to any team other than LAA, LAD, TB, MIA, or WSH.  I really, really don't think he's going anywhere.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: TSmith34 on February 11, 2020, 07:57:10 PM
That's a bold prediction.  Braun is set to make $17M this year, and had a WAR of 1.8 last season.  He can block a trade to any team other than LAA, LAD, TB, MIA, or WSH.  I really, really don't think he's going anywhere.
Last year of his contract, fading vet looking for one more playoff run, and a team out of contention looking for salary relief and any decent return prospect?  Doable.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on February 13, 2020, 01:58:43 PM
Well anyone that wasn’t considering plunking the astros this year probably will now. What a non-apology apology today.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 13, 2020, 02:23:14 PM
Last year of his contract, fading vet looking for one more playoff run, and a team out of contention looking for salary relief and any decent return prospect?  Doable.


If the Brewers are even remotely in the playoff hunt, they won't trade him IMO unless there is another viable option available. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on February 13, 2020, 10:25:23 PM
Nice to see Woman Abuser Chapman taking the moral high ground.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2020, 09:32:46 AM
Knee surgery for Mike Clevinger.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Bad_Reporter on February 15, 2020, 10:40:42 PM

If the Brewers are even remotely in the playoff hunt, they won't trade him IMO unless there is another viable option available.

Brewers can’t trade him and they know it.  The brewers would have liked him gone a long, long time ago.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 16, 2020, 06:56:24 AM
Brewers can’t trade him and they know it.  The brewers would have liked him gone a long, long time ago.


But that's the whole point.  His contract was larger "a long, long time ago."  Now it only has two years left, and is actually decreasing in value.  If he continues to produce offensively, his tradability goes way up. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on February 16, 2020, 04:32:13 PM

But that's the whole point.  His contract was larger "a long, long time ago."  Now it only has two years left, and is actually decreasing in value.  If he continues to produce offensively, his tradability goes way up.

His contract - $16 mil for this year is not a bad value. If he is healthy and the Brewers are out of it before the trade deadline, I think they will definitely try to move him. It should be easy to do as a team that trades for him will only be on the hook for $4 mil in '21.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 16, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
His contract - $16 mil for this year is not a bad value. If he is healthy and the Brewers are out of it before the trade deadline, I think they will definitely try to move him. It should be easy to do as a team that trades for him will only be on the hook for $4 mil in '21.

Exactly.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Bad_Reporter on February 16, 2020, 08:07:13 PM

But that's the whole point.  His contract was larger "a long, long time ago."  Now it only has two years left, and is actually decreasing in value.  If he continues to produce offensively, his tradability goes way up.

Sultan,

Not sure how many teams would be interested in Braun.  My guess is less then a few.  Brewers would be ecstatic to move off of him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: HutchwasClutch on February 16, 2020, 08:21:41 PM
Sultan,

Not sure how many teams would be interested in Braun.  My guess is less then a few.  Brewers would be ecstatic to move off of him.

Absolutely, who wouldn’t be ecstatic to unload last year’s .285/ 22/ 75, and .849 OPS.  Not to mention defensive versatility, including at 1b, where question marks outside of him are huge. Not to mention final year of his contract.  Plus, he’s as still clutch as they come. His grand slam last September at St Louis was arguably their clutch hit of 2019. 

No, his numbers no longer support how much they’re paying this year, but your opinion is about 2 or 3 years outdated. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 16, 2020, 08:27:02 PM
Sultan,

Not sure how many teams would be interested in Braun.  My guess is less then a few.  Brewers would be ecstatic to move off of him.

The whole point is that a mid year trade is most definitely a possibility if the Brewers are out of it.

Absolutely, who wouldn’t be ecstatic to unload last year’s .285/ 22/ 75, and .849 OPS.  Not to mention defensive versatility, including at 1b, where question marks outside of him are huge. Not to mention final year of his contract.  Plus, he’s as still clutch as they come. His grand slam last September at St Louis was arguably their clutch hit of 2019. 

No, his numbers no longer support how much they’re paying this year, but your opinion is about 2 or 3 years outdated. 


Yep.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on February 16, 2020, 08:37:01 PM
Absolutely, who wouldn’t be ecstatic to unload last year’s .285/ 22/ 75, and .849 OPS.  Not to mention defensive versatility, including at 1b, where question marks outside of him are huge. Not to mention final year of his contract.  Plus, he’s as still clutch as they come. His grand slam last September at St Louis was arguably their clutch hit of 2019. 

No, his numbers no longer support how much they’re paying this year, but your opinion is about 2 or 3 years outdated.

Yeah I’m guessing this is coming from the same source that let our pilot know everyone in the Brewers organization thinks Mark Attanosio is a cheap penny pincher.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Bad_Reporter on February 17, 2020, 08:56:36 AM
Absolutely, who wouldn’t be ecstatic to unload last year’s .285/ 22/ 75, and .849 OPS.  Not to mention defensive versatility, including at 1b, where question marks outside of him are huge. Not to mention final year of his contract.  Plus, he’s as still clutch as they come. His grand slam last September at St Louis was arguably their clutch hit of 2019. 

No, his numbers no longer support how much they’re paying this year, but your opinion is about 2 or 3 years outdated.

I hear you on the numbers standpoint.  But my point isn’t just about productivity, there’s other issues with Braun.   I’ll leave it at that

Wades,
Feeling man enough this year to accept my offer on tickets and a meet and greet  with the players?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Keithtisbarf on February 18, 2020, 09:14:52 AM
I hear you on the numbers standpoint.  But my point isn’t just about productivity, there’s other issues with Braun.   I’ll leave it at that

Wades,
Feeling man enough this year to accept my offer on tickets and a meet and greet  with the players?

I’ll take the offer if wade’s won’t. How do you set up a meet and greet with players?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on February 18, 2020, 09:28:57 AM
Hang out on Water St., hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on February 18, 2020, 11:31:48 AM
The World Series trophy is just "a piece of metal" ... wow, did Manfred ever spit the bit on the Astros' cheating.

He came out of it looking weak and clueless, lacking both oversight and vision.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on February 18, 2020, 12:25:34 PM
The World Series trophy is just "a piece of metal" ... wow, did Manfred ever spit the bit on the Astros' cheating.

He came out of it looking weak and clueless, lacking both oversight and vision.

Between this and his refusal to say anything meaningful on the Marlins sale to Jeter's undefunded group, I'm really getting sick of this guy.  I understand that the commissioner serves at the pleasure of the owners, and his job should always be viewed through that lens. But his defensiveness is getting to the point where it seems he has pretty open disdain for the media, the fans, and the game itself.  Pretty great to have him drop gems like this and then propose large scale changes to the schedule and structure of the playoffs to draw the fans back in.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on February 18, 2020, 02:29:52 PM
I guess I had forgotten Brock Holt was still available.  Nice pickup for MIL.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on February 20, 2020, 12:58:49 PM
Ross came out and just said Bryant is going to lead off.   It's not such a shock on Rossy's end because they've refused to address the spot in free agency again.  It's more of a kudos to Bryant who is supposedly totally on board with it, because it certainly won't help his RBI numbers going into potential free agency and his one big payday in a couple of years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on February 20, 2020, 01:15:30 PM
Ross came out and just said Bryant is going to lead off.   It's not such a shock on Rossy's end because they've refused to address the spot in free agency again.  It's more of a kudos to Bryant who is supposedly totally on board with it, because it certainly won't help his RBI numbers going into potential free agency and his one big payday in a couple of years.

Do RBIs factor into contract negotiations anymore?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on February 20, 2020, 01:24:57 PM
Do RBIs factor into contract negotiations anymore?

In some cases it may. In Bryant’s case, I would say no as he will have fewer opportunities to drive in runs. They would look at his stats with runners on base rather than a cumulative category like RBI.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 20, 2020, 01:37:13 PM
Cmon...   No serious GM is going to care about a drop off in RBIs.  They will know why it happened if they ever worried about the stat in the first place.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on February 20, 2020, 09:17:10 PM
Everything means something in these negotiations. Guys who drive in runs make more than those who score them.  He’s also going to have a different approach at the plate, which will likely affect his power numbers.  It’s not a huge thing, but I’m sure Boras likes to have all the firepower he can get when the time comes.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 20, 2020, 09:31:28 PM
Everything means something in these negotiations. Guys who drive in runs make more than those who score them. 

That’s how it used to be. Of course it used to be that a Nellie Fox was the ideal second hitter. Now most teams put their best hitter in the second slot - or the first. Will Carlos Santana or Jose Ramirez make more money than Lindor?Was JD Martinez making more than Betts? How about Springer and Bregman at the top of Houston’s order? Acuña leading off for Atlanta? RBIs are an “old” stat- don’t mean much anymore.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on February 21, 2020, 08:45:28 AM
That’s how it used to be. Of course it used to be that a Nellie Fox was the ideal second hitter. Now most teams put their best hitter in the second slot - or the first. Will Carlos Santana or Jose Ramirez make more money than Lindor?Was JD Martinez making more than Betts? How about Springer and Bregman at the top of Houston’s order? Acuña leading off for Atlanta? RBIs are an “old” stat- don’t mean much anymore.

Pretty sure Nellie Fox is would still be an ideal 2 hitter.  Or 8 hitter.  Or lead off hitter.  The guy was a great hitter.  From 1949- 1960 he averaged .300-.360-.378.  Sure not a lot of pop, but still a pretty ideal guy to have hitting at the top of an order.  And the power numbers between then and now are hardly comparable. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 21, 2020, 08:49:47 AM
Everything means something in these negotiations. Guys who drive in runs make more than those who score them.


Correlation is not causation.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on February 21, 2020, 08:55:54 AM
Fun Nellie Fox Fact!

Tony Gwynn's strike out rate, of 4.2% was more than double that of Nellie Fox.  2 out of the last 4 years, there have been players that struck out more in that season than Fox did in his entire career (2367 games).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 21, 2020, 03:35:49 PM
Pretty sure Nellie Fox is would still be an ideal 2 hitter.  Or 8 hitter.  Or lead off hitter.  The guy was a great hitter.  From 1949- 1960 he averaged .300-.360-.378.  Sure not a lot of pop, but still a pretty ideal guy to have hitting at the top of an order.  And the power numbers between then and now are hardly comparable.

Fox was one of my favorites growing up (Minnie Minoso was my absolute favorite). Not putting him down, but “didn’t have a lot of pop”? C’mon - 35 lifetime HRs, career .363 slugging %, etc - so almost no pop. He “used to be” the ideal #2 hitter. Could take strikes and still make contact deep in the count (helping Aparicio steal bases), great bunter (for hits or sacrifices), etc. Now, nobody bunts or cares about strikeouts and most teams put their best hitter in the 2 hole.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Mutaman on February 21, 2020, 04:06:47 PM
Fox was one of my favorites growing up (Minnie Minoso was my absolute favorite). Not putting him down, but “didn’t have a lot of pop”? C’mon - 35 lifetime HRs, career .363 slugging %, etc - so almost no pop. He “used to be” the ideal #2 hitter. Could take strikes and still make contact deep in the count (helping Aparicio steal bases), great bunter (for hits or sacrifices), etc. Now, nobody bunts or cares about strikeouts and most teams put their best hitter in the 2 hole.
Don't disagree but sort of moot re the 59 Sox. Who was a better hitter than Fox? (59  champs) Al Smith? Jim Landis? Earl Torgeson? Jim McAnany? Sherm Lollar?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 21, 2020, 04:48:11 PM
Don't disagree but sort of moot re the 59 Sox. Who was a better hitter than Fox? (59  champs) Al Smith? Jim Landis? Earl Torgeson? Jim McAnany? Sherm Lollar?

The “Go Go Sox” of 1959 didn’t have much in the way of hitting. Aparicio stole bases, Fox hit singles, Smith and Lollar provided occasional power. (Minoso was in Cleveland that year but returned the following year) They picked up Ted Klusewski (sp?) late and he hit some bombs. Mostly it was pitching and defense up the middle. Bob Shaw was 18-6 that year and I think Early Wynn won 22 or 23. Billy Pierce was past his prime but decent and Dick Donovan rounded out an excellent rotation. Gerry Staley and Turk Lown anchored a solid bullpen. They won a ton of low scoring one run games.







Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on February 21, 2020, 09:07:04 PM
Fox was one of my favorites growing up (Minnie Minoso was my absolute favorite). Not putting him down, but %u201Cdidn%u2019t have a lot of pop%u201D? C%u2019mon - 35 lifetime HRs, career .363 slugging %, etc - so almost no pop. He %u201Cused to be%u201D the ideal #2 hitter. Could take strikes and still make contact deep in the count (helping Aparicio steal bases), great bunter (for hits or sacrifices), etc. Now, nobody bunts or cares about strikeouts and most teams put their best hitter in the 2 hole.

Obviously lineup construction has changed, but I can't imagine any team would hesitate to put a .350 (Fox's career number was .348) OBP guy hitting 2nd.  A guy that I think of as a similar type is Whit Merrifield.  A .300-.350 type hitter.  Even in today's game, pretty ideal for a 2 hitter, though he typically hits leadoff I think.  And yeah he hits more homeruns, but everyone does (and heck,with the lower mound and last year's baseball, Nellie may have hit 35 bombs.   ;))

Maybe a better question is, what team is going to hit a .350 OBP guy toward the bottom of the lineup?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on February 21, 2020, 09:09:37 PM

Correlation is not causation.

Josh Hader lost his arbitration case because of his saves number.  HRs and RBIs were strikes against Realmuto.  Those numbers still matter for compensation, at least in arbitration.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Mutaman on February 22, 2020, 01:31:14 AM
The “Go Go Sox” of 1959 didn’t have much in the way of hitting. Aparicio stole bases, Fox hit singles, Smith and Lollar provided occasional power. (Minoso was in Cleveland that year but returned the following year) They picked up Ted Klusewski (sp?) late and he hit some bombs. Mostly it was pitching and defense up the middle. Bob Shaw was 18-6 that year and I think Early Wynn won 22 or 23. Billy Pierce was past his prime but decent and Dick Donovan rounded out an excellent rotation. Gerry Staley and Turk Lown anchored a solid bullpen. They won a ton of low scoring one run games.

Don't forget Buba Phillips and jim Rivera. And John "Honey" Romano.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 22, 2020, 05:19:09 AM
Josh Hader lost his arbitration case because of his saves number.  HRs and RBIs were strikes against Realmuto.  Those numbers still matter for compensation, at least in arbitration.


I thought Bryant was a UFA next year.  Not that he had one arb year left.  You are correct that these stats matter in these hearings because everyone maniuplates whatever data they can in these situations.  I was thinking more in terms of when a player hits the open market.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 22, 2020, 06:43:45 AM
Don't forget Buba Phillips and jim Rivera. And John "Honey" Romano.

Or Billy Goodman, who platooned with Bubba at 3rd.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on February 24, 2020, 04:44:19 PM
Sox and Moncada are hammering out a big extension, at least six years, with player and team options to push it out further. Will buy out his arb years, and by his late 20's pay him $20 mil a year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 28, 2020, 12:29:53 PM
Probably a long shot to find anyone here, but....

Starting a new $350 MLB Keeper League on Yahoo.  This will be the inaugural season.  12 team H2H 7x7 stat categories.  100% payout (payouts below).  I currently have 11 managers, but only about half of those are paid so plenty of spots left.  Looking to try to fill this league within the next couple days, so if you have any interest, shoot me a PM and I will get you more info or whatever else you need. 

Keepers will be pretty straight forward - get to keep 4 players.  All players drafted in top 3 rounds not allowed as keepers.  You get the keep the player the following season in the round in which you drafted them in current season (ie: draft Vlad Guerrero Jr in 5th round this spring, you get to keep him in 5th round next year, etc.)

Payouts as follows:
1st Place Regular Season: $1000
2nd Place Regular Season:$600
3rd Place Regular Season: $350
1st place Playoffs: $1,500
2nd Place Playoffs: $750

Draft is Tuesday March 24th at 8pm CT. 

Thanks!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 02, 2020, 01:02:59 PM
Probably a long shot to find anyone here, but....

Starting a new $350 MLB Keeper League on Yahoo.  This will be the inaugural season.  12 team H2H 7x7 stat categories.  100% payout (payouts below).  I currently have 11 managers, but only about half of those are paid so plenty of spots left.  Looking to try to fill this league within the next couple days, so if you have any interest, shoot me a PM and I will get you more info or whatever else you need. 

Keepers will be pretty straight forward - get to keep 4 players.  All players drafted in top 3 rounds not allowed as keepers.  You get the keep the player the following season in the round in which you drafted them in current season (ie: draft Vlad Guerrero Jr in 5th round this spring, you get to keep him in 5th round next year, etc.)

Payouts as follows:
1st Place Regular Season: $1000
2nd Place Regular Season:$600
3rd Place Regular Season: $350
1st place Playoffs: $1,500
2nd Place Playoffs: $750

Draft is Tuesday March 24th at 8pm CT. 

Thanks!

Still got a couple spots in this guy. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on March 02, 2020, 01:52:29 PM
Auction or snake draft?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on March 02, 2020, 02:18:28 PM
Probably a long shot to find anyone here, but....

Starting a new $350 MLB Keeper League on Yahoo.  This will be the inaugural season.  12 team H2H 7x7 stat categories.  100% payout (payouts below).  I currently have 11 managers, but only about half of those are paid so plenty of spots left.  Looking to try to fill this league within the next couple days, so if you have any interest, shoot me a PM and I will get you more info or whatever else you need. 

Keepers will be pretty straight forward - get to keep 4 players.  All players drafted in top 3 rounds not allowed as keepers.  You get the keep the player the following season in the round in which you drafted them in current season (ie: draft Vlad Guerrero Jr in 5th round this spring, you get to keep him in 5th round next year, etc.)

Payouts as follows:
1st Place Regular Season: $1000
2nd Place Regular Season:$600
3rd Place Regular Season: $350
1st place Playoffs: $1,500
2nd Place Playoffs: $750

Draft is Tuesday March 24th at 8pm CT. 

Thanks!
Much too thick for my blood.  I'm curious as to how the "playoffs" work for you; I've only done rotisserie leagues.  Are the playoffs the last 4 weeks?  Two weeks?  What if your stud has nothing to play for in September, and gets shut down (Trout last season, for example)?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on March 03, 2020, 03:33:24 PM
Brews close to a 7-year deal with Yelich.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on March 03, 2020, 03:38:27 PM
Brews close to a 7-year deal with Yelich.
Good for everyone.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BrewCity83 on March 03, 2020, 03:51:31 PM
Brews close to a 7-year deal with Yelich.

$30-35 million/year
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 03, 2020, 03:57:25 PM
Auction or snake draft?

Snake. 11/12 spots paid.  Only 1 spot left.

Much too thick for my blood.  I'm curious as to how the "playoffs" work for you; I've only done rotisserie leagues.  Are the playoffs the last 4 weeks?  Two weeks?  What if your stud has nothing to play for in September, and gets shut down (Trout last season, for example)?

6 teams make playoffs.  Top 2 get byes.  Final playoff week is Sep 14-20, so not all the way to the bitter end.  Baseball isn't like football where guys just don't play at the end of the season, for the most part.  Wasn't Trout hurt end of last season? 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on March 03, 2020, 04:10:53 PM
$30-35 million/year

But Mark A is a cheap penny pincher and suggesting he'd ever open his pocketbook is laughable.  ::)

I had a feeling a big extension was coming for Yeli when the Brewers were letting everyone they could walk.  Yeli was dirt cheap for the production he was giving the Brewers.  Good for him and good for the team.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on March 03, 2020, 04:18:41 PM
$30-35 million/year

Actually less than 25 per year. 9 years 215 million.

Extension is 7 for 190ish
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on March 03, 2020, 04:28:19 PM
Shockin', hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Bad_Reporter on March 03, 2020, 05:05:34 PM
But Mark A is a cheap penny pincher and suggesting he'd ever open his pocketbook is laughable.  ::)

I had a feeling a big extension was coming for Yeli when the Brewers were letting everyone they could walk.  Yeli was dirt cheap for the production he was giving the Brewers.  Good for him and good for the team.

Yeah, I won’t even go into ROI with you on this one wades.  Don’t want you to feel dumb.   If you’re ever around and want to talk to some of the brewers management and ask them their personal thoughts, let me know
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on March 03, 2020, 05:38:52 PM
Yeah, I won’t even go into ROI with you on this one wades.  Don’t want you to feel dumb.   If you’re ever around and want to talk to some of the brewers management and ask them their personal thoughts, let me know

Please, have at it. I don’t think you will.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on March 03, 2020, 07:18:39 PM
Actually less than 25 per year. 9 years 215 million.

Extension is 7 for 190ish

Maybe....

The new contract might take effect this year and replace the last 2 years on the old one.

We don't know details yet.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on March 03, 2020, 07:30:12 PM
Maybe....

The new contract might take effect this year and replace the last 2 years on the old one.

We don't know details yet.

The report is he’ll make $215M total and be with the Brewers through the 2028 season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Keithtisbarf on March 03, 2020, 08:58:32 PM
Please, have at it. I don’t think you will.

Why don’t you take him up in the offer? You might get to meet the manager of the club house food service!  :o
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on March 05, 2020, 03:20:53 PM
#donedeal

Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Source confirms: Moncada five-year extension is for $70M. Exercising of club option can bring total value to $90M. On it: @BNightengale.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on March 05, 2020, 03:36:34 PM
#donedeal

Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Source confirms: Moncada five-year extension is for $70M. Exercising of club option can bring total value to $90M. On it: @BNightengale.

There's no team in sports that does these extensions better than the White Sox. They maximize asset value on these contracts so well (there's plenty of things they don't do well on the flip side).

Anderson, Moncada, Robert, Jimenez are all signed through 2025, at more than affordable salaries. I'd imagine Giolito will be next and get something like a 4yr/$60ish contract coming his way soon.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on March 05, 2020, 06:37:43 PM
There's no team in sports that does these extensions better than the White Sox. They maximize asset value on these contracts so well (there's plenty of things they don't do well on the flip side).

Anderson, Moncada, Robert, Jimenez are all signed through 2025, at more than affordable salaries. I'd imagine Giolito will be next and get something like a 4yr/$60ish contract coming his way soon.
Just curious.. what's the White Sox extension which we know has worked out well?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on March 05, 2020, 06:47:37 PM
There's no team in sports that does these extensions better than the White Sox. They maximize asset value on these contracts so well (there's plenty of things they don't do well on the flip side).

Anderson, Moncada, Robert, Jimenez are all signed through 2025, at more than affordable salaries. I'd imagine Giolito will be next and get something like a 4yr/$60ish contract coming his way soon.


Learned lessons from John Hart who did this for Cleveland back a decade or more ago. I've often wondered why more teams didn't do it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on March 05, 2020, 09:30:08 PM
Just curious.. what's the White Sox extension which we know has worked out well?

Chris Sale
Jose Quintana
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on March 05, 2020, 09:33:25 PM

Learned lessons from John Hart who did this for Cleveland back a decade or more ago. I've often wondered why more teams didn't do it.

This is a really good post, well done on the memory bank (no pun intended). Hart did do this and kept that team really really good for a long time.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 05, 2020, 10:44:15 PM
Chris Sale
Jose Quintana

Adam Eaton?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on March 05, 2020, 11:20:53 PM
Adam Eaton?

Yes, Eaton as well.

Having good young players on long term, below market contracts, is great leverage.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on March 05, 2020, 11:48:08 PM
This is a really good post, well done on the memory bank (no pun intended). Hart did do this and kept that team really really good for a long time.

You're one of the great posters here on Scoop. You always post with class - something that I, so far at least, fail miserably at.

Now, if you could just lose the Ditka avatar .... :-\
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on March 06, 2020, 07:48:28 AM
Chris Sale
Jose Quintana
Because of the guys you got in return on the previous post?  Bit of a circular answer.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on March 06, 2020, 07:51:32 AM
nm.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on March 06, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
You're one of the great posters here on Scoop. You always post with class - something that I, so far at least, fail miserably at.

Now, if you could just lose the Ditka avatar .... :-\

Ha, the Ditka avatar isn’t even because I’m a Bears fan. It’s because he’s obnoxiously tan in that picture and looks like a clown. Thanks man.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on March 06, 2020, 10:44:05 AM
Because of the guys you got in return on the previous post?  Bit of a circular answer.

I understand what you're saying, which young player that they signed to a good contract, "paid off" (bad pun) for them in a Sox uniform. You're not wrong, in the case of Sale/Quintana, the team made terrible decisions elsewhere (Adam Dunn, Laroche, etc.), and the rest of their roster, quite frankly, sucked.

The Sox ability though to sign Sale/Quintana/Eaton to very team friendly deals, while they were in their prime, led to the return on those trades to be greater than it otherwise might have been. Those three guys value wasn't just in their talent, but one could argue their contracts were their value.

Front office of the White Sox is far from perfect, but they have shown an ability to sign pre-arb, good talent, to long term, team friendly deals. Other teams have done it as well, the Sox in particular though have done it as much, or more than any team recently I can think of.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: rocket surgeon on March 06, 2020, 03:36:02 PM
christian yelich 9/10 years $215 mil
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: HutchwasClutch on March 06, 2020, 10:51:13 PM
christian yelich 9/10 years $215 mil

Just awesome
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on March 07, 2020, 05:45:16 AM
christian yelich 9/10 years $215 mil
Just as important no opt outs or team options. Was never discussed. Wants to be a Brewer for life. No Nolan Arenado situation.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 07, 2020, 10:24:06 AM
Just as important no opt outs or team options. Was never discussed. Wants to be a Brewer for life. No Nolan Arenado situation.

Comes with his own scoreboard video crew.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jsglow on March 07, 2020, 08:10:43 PM
Just as important no opt outs or team options. Was never discussed. Wants to be a Brewer for life. No Nolan Arenado situation.

This is the key. Someday Yeli will replace Yount as the goodwill ambassador in Arizona. Until then I hope he continues his MVP level play.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on March 07, 2020, 08:18:42 PM
Yelich should open up a restaurant with Aaron Rodgers while also selling MMA-inspired T-shirts.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Eldon on March 07, 2020, 08:22:38 PM
Comes with his own scoreboard video crew.

Man oh man I hope this isn't true.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on March 07, 2020, 09:50:54 PM
Yelich should open up a restaurant with Aaron Rodgers while also selling MMA-inspired T-shirts.

Hope they serve buffalo chicken ravioli.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on March 11, 2020, 10:31:22 PM
Any talk of the start of the baseball season being put on hold? March 26 only 2 weeks away.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on March 11, 2020, 10:43:05 PM
Any talk of the start of the baseball season being put on hold? March 26 only 2 weeks away.

Haven't heard anything league-wise, but SF has banned gatherings of over 1,000 people.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on March 11, 2020, 11:00:13 PM
I follow Rosiak on Twitter.  Anyone else?

It's almost surreal to see all of the cancellations, changes, health updates, etc., on the timeline and then Rosiak is near live tweeting a spring training game with a full house of fans.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on March 12, 2020, 12:49:50 AM
I follow Rosiak on Twitter.  Anyone else?

It's almost surreal to see all of the cancellations, changes, health updates, etc., on the timeline and then Rosiak is near live tweeting a spring training game with a full house of fans.

Had the same thought. Second thought is that MLB has really effed up this offseason. The cheating scandal with accusations of not enough action, followed by seemingly no action in the face of a pandemic is.... Not a good look.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 12, 2020, 01:17:16 PM
Any talk of the start of the baseball season being put on hold? March 26 only 2 weeks away.

I heard playing games only in Florida & Arizona to empty stadiums to start the season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Bad_Reporter on March 12, 2020, 02:57:03 PM
Sounds like May 1 will be opening day.  They’re still ironing it out with owners and the cdc
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: muwarrior69 on March 12, 2020, 03:11:19 PM
Season delay of at least 2 weeks.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28892315/sources-mlb-expected-suspend-spring-training
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on March 16, 2020, 12:08:41 PM
Sounds like at least July before baseball gets going.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on March 16, 2020, 12:14:08 PM
Sounds like at least July before baseball gets going.

I'm hoping for an early to mid June start as a best case scenario.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on March 26, 2020, 11:28:46 AM
Happy Opening Day, everyone.  It (was) my favorite day of the year.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on March 26, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
Why in the world did they schedule Opening Day to be the same day as the Sweet Sixteen?

Karma. No wonder the world is going haywire.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on April 02, 2020, 02:01:39 PM
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/Ex-Astros-Hinch-Luhnow-suspension-count-2020-15174568.php (https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/Ex-Astros-Hinch-Luhnow-suspension-count-2020-15174568.php)

Former Astros cheating even when baseball is off.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: muwarrior69 on April 07, 2020, 11:02:17 AM
Teams considering playing games in Arizona.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29004498/mlb-union-focused-plan-allow-season-start-early-arizona
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on April 07, 2020, 11:04:05 AM
It would be nice to be able to watch.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 07, 2020, 11:33:04 AM
I just don't see how that plan is in any way feasible.  Any plan that would require players in the middle of a pandemic to leave their families for four months isn't going to work.

I can see games without fans at home ballparks.  With players travelling as they do now with family in attendance.  That to me is a minimum of what it is going to take for this to work.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 07, 2020, 09:49:27 PM
Al Kaline dead at 85. Batting champ at 20, HOFer, all around great guy. RIP
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 09, 2020, 01:21:10 PM
I don't think this is a surprise to anyone, but I have heard from a good source, that MLB is going to find some way (covid-19 be damned) to have some type of season. That's not breaking any news, but what I heard (reckless speculation) is there is a team that is in severe enough financial trouble that a lost season would potentially cause that franchise to collapse.

You can probably easily figure out which franchise that is.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUfan12 on April 09, 2020, 01:23:16 PM
I don't think this is a surprise to anyone, but I have heard from a good source, that MLB is going to find some way (covid-19 be damned) to have some type of season. That's not breaking any news, but what I heard (reckless speculation) is there is a team that is in severe enough financial trouble that a lost season would potentially cause that franchise to collapse.

You can probably easily figure out which franchise that is.

I'll miss you, Exrays.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 09, 2020, 03:16:19 PM
I'll miss you, Exrays.

Right state, wrong sea creature.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 09, 2020, 03:33:58 PM
Right state, wrong sea creature.

Poor Jeter.

Saw today, the marlins are the only franchise worth under $1b per forbes(?).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on April 09, 2020, 04:57:58 PM
Poor Jeter.

Saw today, the marlins are the only franchise worth under $1b per forbes(?).

Hopefully he gets a gift bag on the way out.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on April 09, 2020, 09:08:43 PM
Hopefully he gets a gift bag on the way out.

A Brockmire gift basket would be charming.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2020, 10:43:10 AM
The next MLB thought.  Everyone plays at their spring training sites without fans and the Grapefruit and Cactus Leagues will be divided into divisions.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/04/10/mlb-realignment-league-considers-radical-move-for-2020-season/5128935002/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 10, 2020, 11:25:08 AM
The next MLB thought.  Everyone plays at their spring training sites without fans and the Grapefruit and Cactus Leagues will be divided into divisions.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/04/10/mlb-realignment-league-considers-radical-move-for-2020-season/5128935002/

They are hell bent on having a season, absolutely hell bent, no matter what.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on April 10, 2020, 11:29:54 AM
I think it's a fun idea, plus expanded playoffs. I'm sure 50% of fans would say it doesn't count and whoever wins the World Series isn't a real champion, though.

Love the Brewers division!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 10, 2020, 11:33:33 AM
I think it's a fun idea, plus expanded playoffs. I'm sure 50% of fans would say it doesn't count and whoever wins the World Series isn't a real champion, though.

Love the Brewers division!

Summer day games in FL and AZ?  Oof.

Would still like to see some kind of season, this is better than no baseball, as long as they could stay quarantined amongst themselves.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 10, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Summer day games in FL and AZ?  Oof.

Would still like to see some kind of season, this is better than no baseball, as long as they could stay quarantined amongst themselves.

I believe the idea is to play most of the games in the Trop, Miami, and Chase Field. 7 innings, staggered times, from 11am local to night.

Almost like little league where you just have teams/games at one field all day.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2020, 11:53:09 AM
I believe the idea is to play most of the games in the Trop, Miami, and Chase Field. 7 innings, staggered times, from 11am local to night.

Almost like little league where you just have teams/games at one field all day.


Sign up sheets for whose turn it is to bring the snacks?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUfan12 on April 10, 2020, 11:54:05 AM
I believe the idea is to play most of the games in the Trop, Miami, and Chase Field. 7 innings, staggered times, from 11am local to night.

If you can't even have a regulation game what is the point?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on April 10, 2020, 12:12:23 PM
If you can't even have a regulation game what is the point?

(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/956340376235153656/106040938130EDF1A9D7E6CB0355A1A682528678/)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 10, 2020, 12:29:19 PM
Whatever this MLB season is, it's going to be wacky.

7 inning games
Doubleheaders
Robo strike zone (good!)
DH for all (good!)
No traditional AL/NL leagues
35 (?) man rosters
Some type of extra inning mechanism (runner on 2nd or whatever)
No mound meetings (good!)
If a player gets traded from Florida to Arizona or vice versa, will he have to be quarantined for 14 days?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2020, 12:37:37 PM
Hell, why not try all the whacky sh*t in one season!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 10, 2020, 12:55:09 PM
The whole thing is wacky. What I wish MLB would do would be this:

1) Start the season with the All-Star Game and a celebration of baseball.

2) Reschedule the season with 16 games against a team's divisional opponents (16*4=64).

3) Schedule an additional 20 games against the corresponding division in the other league (20 games, five teams, two home and two road games against the corresponding league's divisional teams).

4) Means you play 84 games -- a short season for MLB but a chance for teams to test themselves across enough games to make the best teams rise to the top. Also means that the teams that come in to play you are the teams most likely to be a home team's rivals for fans and interest. That, in turn should make for more interesting baseball and make it possible for baseball fans to travel.

This scenario would leave the month of June to re-start Summer Training. Every team would go to their Florida or Arizona facilities and practice and get in playing shape. Whether spectators would be allowed depends on where we were in coronavirus. Teams  could arrange scrimmages against their neighbors. The Cardinals, for example, could scrimmage the Marlins, Astros and Nationals because these teams won't see each other in the regular season, making the results more reasonable for preparation.

This sure as heck beats playing MLB in empty stadiums. It also sure as heck beats summer without baseball. That would make summer intolerable.

The biggest downside to this is that about 37.5 percent of the season would be played in September, directly against the NFL and college football. But this needs to happen as a means of pulling America out of its Covid-19 induced funk and to create some excitement. I know Governor Toilets in Illinois is warning against it, but we need something like this. Even if it is the Cubs!!!!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 10, 2020, 01:01:40 PM
You are making the assumption that crowds will be allowed later in the summer or in fall. Not sure that’s a safe assumption.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 10, 2020, 01:04:12 PM
All the ideas MLB is kicking around reminds me of the scene in Argo, where the CIA guys were all kicking around ideas to get the hostages out, and Bryan Cranston's character eventually remarks "this is the best worst idea we've got".
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on April 10, 2020, 01:09:46 PM
Whatever this MLB season is, it's going to be wacky.

7 inning games
Doubleheaders
Robo strike zone (good!)
DH for all (good!)
No traditional AL/NL leagues
35 (?) man rosters
Some type of extra inning mechanism (runner on 2nd or whatever)
No mound meetings (good!)
If a player gets traded from Florida to Arizona or vice versa, will he have to be quarantined for 14 days?

Thinks of what Craig Counsell would do with 7 inning games and expanded rosters

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MaleSophisticatedFowl-max-1mb.gif)

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on April 10, 2020, 01:49:02 PM
Thinks of what Craig Counsell would do with 7 inning games and expanded rosters

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MaleSophisticatedFowl-max-1mb.gif)

Haha this was my thought. If no 3 batter to rule, games might take longer being only 7 innings.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 10, 2020, 04:13:37 PM
The next MLB thought.  Everyone plays at their spring training sites without fans and the Grapefruit and Cactus Leagues will be divided into divisions.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/04/10/mlb-realignment-league-considers-radical-move-for-2020-season/5128935002/

Its admittedly better than the all-Arizona idea. But not much.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 10, 2020, 04:14:29 PM
You are making the assumption that crowds will be allowed later in the summer or in fall. Not sure that’s a safe assumption.

I'd say its actually quite unlikely.

By late summer people may be returning to work or going out to eat, but we won't get crowds in pro sports stadiums until there is a widely-available vaccine. It is as simple as that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 11, 2020, 10:10:37 AM
Its admittedly better than the all-Arizona idea. But not much.

It sucks. At some point, we need baseball. We need a warm summer afternoon (OK, blazing hot summer evening if you’re in St. Louis), below average food, plenty of ice cold Budweiser, great baseball by guys with a birds on bat logo on their shirts and a great seat that I copped a bargain for.

As much as I love baseball (and I truly do), television baseball is like video porn. It’s a whole lot more fun to be there than it is to watch it on TV. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 11, 2020, 10:29:48 AM
I'd say its actually quite unlikely.

By late summer people may be returning to work or going out to eat, but we won't get crowds in pro sports stadiums until there is a widely-available vaccine. It is as simple as that.

What about spacing 15 or 20 thousands fans in a 45-50 thousand seat stadium? Is that apossibility?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 11, 2020, 10:54:39 AM
What about spacing 15 or 20 thousands fans in a 45-50 thousand seat stadium? Is that apossibility?


When they are in their seats sure.  But entering and exiting the stadium, concession stands, bathrooms, etc.  Not likely.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on April 11, 2020, 11:38:53 AM

When they are in their seats sure.  But entering and exiting the stadium, concession stands, bathrooms, etc.  Not likely.

Exactly. I was trying to think of ways to do that for hoops next year. Just getting in your need like an entrance time with the ticket you have, and people would have to start going in hours before the game starts just to space out the entrance. I just don’t know how it works.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 11, 2020, 12:29:37 PM
If we are still worrying about this in July at this level, we will have a lot bigger problems that how to space out baseball fans.

That is what scares me the most about coronavirus.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 11, 2020, 12:54:01 PM
If we are still worrying about this in July at this level, we will have a lot bigger problems that how to space out baseball fans.

That is what scares me the most about coronavirus.

We will be worrying about this in July.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 11, 2020, 01:17:17 PM
What about spacing 15 or 20 thousands fans in a 45-50 thousand seat stadium? Is that apossibility?

The Marlins, Rays,  A's, pirates,  O's have been doing this for years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 11, 2020, 04:16:18 PM
We will be worrying about this in July.

Depends on how we worry. If you believe that it won’t be good enough by July to have spectator sports, I’m fearful the economy will be in utter collapse. Millions on millions will be unemployed and the implication on social, political and economic order will be huge.

At some point, this country has to take a calculated risk and return to normal. Otherwise, the pain and suffering we all will face will be beyond anything we’ve experienced since the dawn of the 20th Century. I hope we come up with a vaccine but even if we don’t, at some point life has to return to something close to normal.

The people who need the economy to function best (and who know the least about what I’m talking about) will be the people hurting the most.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 11, 2020, 04:19:25 PM
Depends on how we worry. If you believe that it won’t be good enough by July to have spectator sports, I’m fearful the economy will be in utter collapse. Millions on millions will be unemployed and the implication on social, political and economic order will be huge.

At some point, this country has to take a calculated risk and return to normal. Otherwise, the pain and suffering we all will face will be beyond anything we’ve experienced since the dawn of the 20th Century. I hope we come up with a vaccine but even if we don’t, at some point life has to return to something close to normal.

The people who need the economy to function best (and who know the least about what I’m talking about) will be the people hurting the most.

People will be back to work. Bars and restaurants will be open to some extent. Spectacular sports wont be around for awhile.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 11, 2020, 04:25:16 PM
People will be back to work. Bars and restaurants will be open to some extent. Spectacular sports wont be around for awhile.

Brother Fluff,

I hope you’re right. I really do.

But we’re operating without a playbook right now. And bureaucracies don’t function without a playbook. The dribble I keep hearing is that this is going to last and last and last with no end in sight — and we’re all going to have to stay locked up and away from our communities until ____________ (fill in the blank with your favorite commentator’s fear mongering).

There has to be a balance of risk taking between medical, social, economic and even political factors. At some point, we’ll stop seeing this as the Andromeda Strain and see it more as a particularly aggressive flu.

That’s when baseball will be back!

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 11, 2020, 06:42:52 PM
It sucks. At some point, we need baseball. We need a warm summer afternoon (OK, blazing hot summer evening if you’re in St. Louis), below average food, plenty of ice cold Budweiser, great baseball by guys with a birds on bat logo on their shirts and a great seat that I copped a bargain for.

As much as I love baseball (and I truly do), television baseball is like video porn. It’s a whole lot more fun to be there than it is to watch it on TV.

Word.

Go cards
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 11, 2020, 06:57:57 PM

When they are in their seats sure.  But entering and exiting the stadium, concession stands, bathrooms, etc.  Not likely.

Maybe no concessions, monitors for bathrooms and for entering/exiting?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on April 11, 2020, 08:36:30 PM
The Marlins, Rays,  A's, pirates,  O's have been doing this for years.

White Sox
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 12, 2020, 12:32:19 AM
White Sox

Lenny said
What about spacing 15 or 20 thousands fans in a 45-50 thousand seat stadium? Is that apossibility?

I don't think of the Sox in the 15-20k range.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 12, 2020, 06:56:03 AM
Maybe no concessions, monitors for bathrooms and for entering/exiting?


I think the tought is that this is too much trouble considering there are going to be a myriad of local rules to deal with, and still potentially risky anyway, so play with empty stands.  And if you are playing with empty stands, why not just do it in Arizona or Florida to minimize travel.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on April 12, 2020, 11:13:20 AM
Brother Fluff,

I hope you’re right. I really do.

But we’re operating without a playbook right now. And bureaucracies don’t function without a playbook. The dribble I keep hearing is that this is going to last and last and last with no end in sight — and we’re all going to have to stay locked up and away from our communities until ____________ (fill in the blank with your favorite commentator’s fear mongering).

There has to be a balance of risk taking between medical, social, economic and even political factors. At some point, we’ll stop seeing this as the Andromeda Strain and see it more as a particularly aggressive flu.

That’s when baseball will be back!

Baseball (like everything else) will be back  when we have wide spread testing - in other words, not for quite a while.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 12, 2020, 03:12:14 PM
I was reading an article a week or two ago, and the entire concession process at sports/entertainment venues is going to have to change. One big issue is most buildings use stainless steel at concession areas. That’s a big no bueno moving forward. Condiments in public concession areas will be gone. No more vendors walking around selling beer (good luck having 4 people pass down beer/money from the dude in the middle of a section to the vendor at the aisle).

Sporting events/concerts/etc have to completely change their experience model. That’s a lot of revenue and jobs that are going to be impacted. I don’t see any spectators in sporting events for a long time.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on April 12, 2020, 04:50:42 PM
What about spacing 15 or 20 thousands fans in a 45-50 thousand seat stadium? Is that apossibility?

A possibility? In Tampa and Miami, it's a reason to celebrate!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on April 15, 2020, 06:56:48 PM
Roy Halladay on amphetamines when he ceased his plane while practicing stunts. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 17, 2020, 11:01:33 AM
My prediction, or at least proposal....we will have a MLB season starting on or around July 4. The symbolism will be too great to pass up. Maybe an All-Star game to kick it off. Have fans start voting online June 1. Give us something to talk about.

There will be no spectators. The Spring training locations were a decent idea but I don't think players will want to play there in the heat of summer. Maybe instead at one ballpark per division. But you do a ballpark from a different division so there is no home field advantage. Keep players from AL or NL West quarantined in hotels in one location (Milwaukee and Miller Park could actually be ideal due to the dome option and climate control), and do the same for each division. NL Central plays in a AL/NL East or AL/NL West stadium. Domes wherever possible to keep scheduling tight and minimize rainouts. All games are divisional matchups for the abbreviated regular season. Since there's no fans you can do multiple games per day if you need: a daytime matchup and a nighttime matchup. 4 teams from the division play each day. One team gets a day off.  No series in the scheduling, so the days off rotate for each team everyday. Every team gets a day off every 4 days. No travel for the whole season. Something to that effect.

Have an 8 team playoff - division winners and the otherwise best record in the league for the Wild Card.  All games for both league playoff rounds are in the same city for each league - same deal - quarantined, no  fans. A neutral stadium of a team that didn't make the playoffs. No homefield advantages. World Series also in a neutral stadium. No homefield advantage. No travel required. Teams quarantined, no fans. Pick domes to minimize threat of rainouts. AL playoffs in Miller Park. NL Playoffs in Seattle. Something like that.

Rapid testing of players before each game. Anyone infected goes into quarantine for the requisite number of days.

There will be TV revenue, but players will need to take a paycut, perhaps 50%. But they will get paid something.

Experiment and take some risks with the TV broadcasts to up fan interest, since there is no one in the stands. Mic up managers, umpires and/or players. Do video interviews between innings. Have advanced analytics/sabermetrics on screen.

It isn't ideal, but we would be able to watch baseball.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 17, 2020, 11:53:42 AM
Coleman, I don't think you have a bad plan here, but I don't see how they can do an All-Star game.  Too much travelling from one group back to another. 

Part of the hold up will be that players don't want to separate from their families for an extended length of time.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 17, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
Coleman, I don't think you have a bad plan here, but I don't see how they can do an All-Star game.  Too much travelling from one group back to another. 

Part of the hold up will be that players don't want to separate from their families for an extended length of time.

Maybe you're right about the All Star Game.

I think the rest of it could work. Players will be gone for like 4 months (July, August, September, October). But they've been home since October 2019, except for the brief stint at the beginning of spring training. And they will get paid.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on April 17, 2020, 03:31:17 PM
How many of these guys still want to be home with their families?

For every Zobrist, there’s 5 Palmeiros.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 17, 2020, 03:39:03 PM
How many of these guys still want to be home with their families?

For every Zobrist, there’s 5 Palmeiros.

Whether they like it or not, the Fact of the matter is they are used to being gone from their families half of the time from February through October anyway. 4 months straight isn’t that much worse.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 17, 2020, 03:41:50 PM
Whether they like it or not, the Fact of the matter is they are used to being gone from their families half of the time from February through October anyway. 4 months straight isn’t that much worse.


They're usually not gone from their families all summer.  Their families usually join them.

I agree that they may not have much choice if they want to earn a paycheck this year, but they are going to have to approve whatever plan they come up with.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 17, 2020, 03:44:05 PM
Gang, if you're this pessimistic about getting folks back together and beginning to again act like people, then Good God, do you have any idea what's going to happen to this country?

Oscar Munoz, Chairman and CEO of United Airlines, put out a very dismal forecast for his airline for the rest of this year, predicated on very pessimistic assumptions about when United would be back to normal. In essence, he's more than a little worried that the nation's second largest airline will collapse by year-end. And I'm confident United is not alone in the airline sector. Nor is the airline sector alone in facing severe economic trauma!

We simply cannot exist walled up in our homes. While I'd argue that more than a few tech-oriented Millennial-geeks would be more than excited about it, commerce, society, religion and a host of other activities is predicated on human interaction and, dare I say, contact. As Catholics, for example, we seek the assurance and love of a community of believers and gain strength from coming together. Mass isn't something you watch on TV, for long!

Frankly, the longer SIP goes, the more likely it becomes that individuals will simply say, "screw it... I've had it!"

If we restrict interaction, travel, commerce and other things to either economically or politically blessed individuals, God help us.

For that reason, BRING ON BASEBALL -- WITH AN AUDIENCE!!!!!!

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 17, 2020, 03:59:44 PM
You fail to understand there is a fundamental difference to opening up an economy so people can safely go to a restaurant, bar or retail shop, and allowing tens of thousands of people to attend a sporting event.

Read this:

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/coronavirus-how-a-champions-league-match-contributed-to-italys-covid-19-outbreak/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on April 17, 2020, 05:02:52 PM
Gang, if you're this pessimistic about getting folks back together and beginning to again act like people, then Good God, do you have any idea what's going to happen to this country?

Oscar Munoz, Chairman and CEO of United Airlines, put out a very dismal forecast for his airline for the rest of this year, predicated on very pessimistic assumptions about when United would be back to normal. In essence, he's more than a little worried that the nation's second largest airline will collapse by year-end. And I'm confident United is not alone in the airline sector. Nor is the airline sector alone in facing severe economic trauma!

We simply cannot exist walled up in our homes. While I'd argue that more than a few tech-oriented Millennial-geeks would be more than excited about it, commerce, society, religion and a host of other activities is predicated on human interaction and, dare I say, contact. As Catholics, for example, we seek the assurance and love of a community of believers and gain strength from coming together. Mass isn't something you watch on TV, for long!

Frankly, the longer SIP goes, the more likely it becomes that individuals will simply say, "screw it... I've had it!"

If we restrict interaction, travel, commerce and other things to either economically or politically blessed individuals, God help us.

For that reason, BRING ON BASEBALL -- WITH AN AUDIENCE!!!!!!

Don't worry, Oscar will get a lot of money from the government!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 17, 2020, 05:15:02 PM
Gang, if you're this pessimistic about getting folks back together and beginning to again act like people, then Good God, do you have any idea what's going to happen to this country?

Oscar Munoz, Chairman and CEO of United Airlines, put out a very dismal forecast for his airline for the rest of this year, predicated on very pessimistic assumptions about when United would be back to normal. In essence, he's more than a little worried that the nation's second largest airline will collapse by year-end. And I'm confident United is not alone in the airline sector. Nor is the airline sector alone in facing severe economic trauma!

We simply cannot exist walled up in our homes. While I'd argue that more than a few tech-oriented Millennial-geeks would be more than excited about it, commerce, society, religion and a host of other activities is predicated on human interaction and, dare I say, contact. As Catholics, for example, we seek the assurance and love of a community of believers and gain strength from coming together. Mass isn't something you watch on TV, for long!

Frankly, the longer SIP goes, the more likely it becomes that individuals will simply say, "screw it... I've had it!"

If we restrict interaction, travel, commerce and other things to either economically or politically blessed individuals, God help us.

For that reason, BRING ON BASEBALL -- WITH AN AUDIENCE!!!!!!

Yeah, no
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: jesmu84 on April 17, 2020, 05:57:49 PM
You fail to understand there is a fundamental difference to opening up an economy so people can safely go to a restaurant, bar or retail shop, and allowing tens of thousands of people to attend a sporting event.

Read this:

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/coronavirus-how-a-champions-league-match-contributed-to-italys-covid-19-outbreak/

Fluffy, you're such a millennial. Or socialist. Or anti-american.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on April 17, 2020, 08:34:15 PM
Fluffy, you're such a millennial. Or socialist. Or anti-american.

All of the above?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 17, 2020, 11:20:19 PM
You fail to understand there is a fundamental difference to opening up an economy so people can safely go to a restaurant, bar or retail shop, and allowing tens of thousands of people to attend a sporting event.

Read this:

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/coronavirus-how-a-champions-league-match-contributed-to-italys-covid-19-outbreak/

OK, where do you start limiting?

Are religious services allowed? How about opening the parks, beaches, and other public locales?

In Florida, Disney plans to reopen June 1, which means Universal and Sea World reopen the same day. If it is later, what do you do about the 2.0 million people or so who live in the Metro Orlando region and whose livelihoods feast on tourism?

Or about Saturday nights when hundreds of people cram into bars in Chicago? How many restaurants can survive when tables are properly social distanced? From what we knew before the restaurants closed down here, not many!

Sure, none of these things are essential to life in the United States. But they're critical to our national well-being.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 18, 2020, 06:51:49 AM
Yes it is a tricky balance.  Large crowds at sporting events are the last things that will happen IMO.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on April 18, 2020, 10:51:45 AM
Yes it is a tricky balance.  Large crowds at sporting events are the last things that will happen IMO.

Donald thinks that’s back by mid August or early September. So if that’s the last step we’re going to see some rapid progress!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 18, 2020, 11:38:51 AM
The Yahoo article about Disney’s Wide World of Sports complex hosting the NBA is brilliant. MLB and the NFL could follow suit. I’m surprised this idea hasn’t gained more momentum, it makes perfect sense.

MLB games in the day wouldn’t be great with the heat/humidity, but you can play games early 11am and at night on their 5 MLB fields. The Trop is an easy drive, you could play three games there each day as well.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 18, 2020, 12:28:18 PM
The Yahoo article about Disney’s Wide World of Sports complex hosting the NBA is brilliant. MLB and the NFL could follow suit. I’m surprised this idea hasn’t gained more momentum, it makes perfect sense.

MLB games in the day wouldn’t be great with the heat/humidity, but you can play games early 11am and at night on their 5 MLB fields. The Trop is an easy drive, you could play three games there each day as well.

Brother Dish, there is a reason why Marlins Park and Tropicana Field are domed stadiums. It’s miserable here in summer — 95/95 is not unusual. Pop-up thunderstorms fed by Florida’s unending moisture and enormous heat are a fact of life. Absent a drought, you’d be lucky to get more than one three-hour game in a day, much less the three you talk about.

It ain’t gonna work any more than Arizona will.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on April 18, 2020, 09:14:47 PM
For sure come hell or high water, WI will be open for the DNC, aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Coleman on April 18, 2020, 09:33:48 PM
The Yahoo article about Disney’s Wide World of Sports complex hosting the NBA is brilliant. MLB and the NFL could follow suit. I’m surprised this idea hasn’t gained more momentum, it makes perfect sense.

MLB games in the day wouldn’t be great with the heat/humidity, but you can play games early 11am and at night on their 5 MLB fields. The Trop is an easy drive, you could play three games there each day as well.

No way players agree to be in Florida for the entire season
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on April 19, 2020, 12:05:57 AM
No way players agree to be in Florida for the entire season

Feasible for NBA. Don't think it is for MLB.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 19, 2020, 12:58:15 AM
No way players agree to be in Florida for the entire season

Money has a long way of talking. Added benefit is no jock tax in Florida.

Yes, I get the weather isn’t ideal. Play early, play night games, utilize The Trop as well.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 19, 2020, 09:01:10 AM
Money has a long way of talking. Added benefit is no jock tax in Florida.

Yes, I get the weather isn’t ideal. Play early, play night games, utilize The Trop as well.

Brother Dish, playing baseball here in mid-summer is akin to the entire NFL playing its slate of games in February at Lambeau Field.

That’s not ideal weather either!

Play early? If the purpose is television, what does playing early get you? The geezer audience? You might get one game in the afternoon (with low audience because we’re all working) and one featured night game. That’s assuming the weather does not intervene.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on April 19, 2020, 09:11:22 AM
Brother Dish, playing baseball here in mid-summer is akin to the entire NFL playing its slate of games in February at Lambeau Field.

That’s not ideal weather either!

Play early? If the purpose is television, what does playing early get you? The geezer audience? You might get one game in the afternoon (with low audience because we’re all working) and one featured night game. That’s assuming the weather does not intervene.

Wait. You mean to tell me the sad proclaimed “best fans in the word” aren’t willing to wake up any hour of the day to watch their beloved red birds?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on April 19, 2020, 09:25:16 AM
I enjoy streaming a noon getaway game on the third monitor here and there, but to make a whole season of it would be quite a bit, even for those that have owned season tickets in the past and gone to or watched almost all games.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on April 19, 2020, 12:07:49 PM
I think you guy$ are mi$$ing the point.

No game$ = no media right$ revenue.

1>0

I totally get it will be hot/humid. Play early/play late, and game$ all day at the Trop.

Player$ can live with their familie$ $eque$tered at Di$ney hotel$ (Yahoo article capture$ thi$ $ide well). It’$ one of the few place$ where the bio dome option work$.

They are going to find a way to play MLB. Take it to the bank.



Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on April 19, 2020, 02:08:29 PM
Wait. You mean to tell me the sad proclaimed “best fans in the word” aren’t willing to wake up any hour of the day to watch their beloved red birds?

They may if the team is good enough to warrant their attention.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 19, 2020, 10:51:36 PM
Wait. You mean to tell me the sad proclaimed “best fans in the word” aren’t willing to wake up any hour of the day to watch their beloved red birds?

For heaven's sake, we have to work. Besides, under the Florida/Arizona plan, there's no games against the Cubs, Reds and Brewers. We'd end up playing the Nationals, Astros and Mets instead. Hell, if they let people in, I might stay down here this summer!

Brother Dish, the media revenue in this kind of nonsense would be so low that one wonders whether it's worth it to play the game. Media revenue is predicated the audience a broadcast can deliver. Broadcast a four inning affair that gets rained out because of one of Florida's everyday summer microbursts and the audience will be, well, crap.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 20, 2020, 07:45:08 AM
For heaven's sake, we have to work. Besides, under the Florida/Arizona plan, there's no games against the Cubs, Reds and Brewers. We'd end up playing the Nationals, Astros and Mets instead. Hell, if they let people in, I might stay down here this summer!

Brother Dish, the media revenue in this kind of nonsense would be so low that one wonders whether it's worth it to play the game. Media revenue is predicated the audience a broadcast can deliver. Broadcast a four inning affair that gets rained out because of one of Florida's everyday summer microbursts and the audience will be, well, crap.

Then what's your plan?  Keep in mind that baseball in home stadiums with fans is NOT happening.  How do you plan on playing the season with that limitation?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on April 20, 2020, 10:28:06 AM
The KBO is getting set to start their season at the beginning of May.  I'm ready to watch some killer bat flips.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on April 22, 2020, 01:17:02 PM
The KBO is getting set to start their season at the beginning of May.  I'm ready to watch some killer bat flips.

Asia may be all we get. I’d put chance of MLB at less than 50% this year.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on April 22, 2020, 01:44:58 PM
Asia may be all we get. I’d put chance of MLB at less than 50% this year.

Sell Eric Thames back to KBO plz
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 22, 2020, 03:25:47 PM
Then what's your plan?  Keep in mind that baseball in home stadiums with fans is NOT happening.  How do you plan on playing the season with that limitation?

OK Fluff, since you asked:

1) Admit that we're day to day and may not know for awhile whether any baseball can be played this year.

2) Plan on starting after the All-Star break at the earliest.

3) If it doesn't go by August 1, can it for this year and lean on your business interruption insurance.

4) Admit that the Florida/Arizona plan is crap and you're probably going to lose a backside full money if you try it.

5) Fans are everything. We pay the bills.

Ultimately, Brother Fluff, we can't bunker down and hide from this indefinitely. America doesn't work that way and most humans are not wired that way. There's so many conflicting statistics on how deep the infestation and how bad it may be that it's getting to the point I don't know who to believe. But we can't shelter in place forever. We have to do things that ultimately bring us together and allow society to function normally.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on April 28, 2020, 04:58:13 PM
This could be crazy fun.
MLB talking about starting in late June with league realigned into three divisions and an expanded playoffs. No fans in the stands to start.

The divisions would be:
EAST
New York Yankees and Mets, Boston Red Sox, Washington Nationals, Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Phillies, Pittsburgh Pirates, Toronto Blue Jays, Tampa Bay Rays, Miami Marlins

WEST
Los Angeles Dodgers and Angels, San Francisco Giants, Oakland Athletics, San Diego Padres, Arizona Diamondbacks, Colorado Rockies, Texas Rangers, Houston Astros, Seattle Mariners

CENTRAL
Chicago Cubs and Chicago White Sox, Milwaukee Brewers, St. Louis Cardinals, Kansas City Royals, Cincinnati Reds, Cleveland Indians, Minnesota Twins, Atlanta Braves, Detroit Tigers

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/04/28/mlb-optimistic-about-starting-season-late-june/3039275001/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BM1090 on April 28, 2020, 05:02:10 PM
This could be crazy fun.
MLB talking about starting in late June with league realigned into three divisions and an expanded playoffs. No fans in the stands to start.

The divisions would be:
EAST
New York Yankees and Mets, Boston Red Sox, Washington Nationals, Baltimore Orioles, Philadelphia Phillies, Pittsburgh Pirates, Toronto Blue Jays, Tampa Bay Rays, Miami Marlins

WEST
Los Angeles Dodgers and Angels, San Francisco Giants, Oakland Athletics, San Diego Padres, Arizona Diamondbacks, Colorado Rockies, Texas Rangers, Houston Astros, Seattle Mariners

CENTRAL
Chicago Cubs and Chicago White Sox, Milwaukee Brewers, St. Louis Cardinals, Kansas City Royals, Cincinnati Reds, Cleveland Indians, Minnesota Twins, Atlanta Braves, Detroit Tigers

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/04/28/mlb-optimistic-about-starting-season-late-june/3039275001/

That would be fun. Kind of odd they switched the Pirates and Braves. The West is the AL West and NL West combined. The Central and East are those two divisions combined but with only the Pirates and Braves switched.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on April 28, 2020, 05:19:10 PM
Would love the opportunity to drive to KC from Omaha to see the brewers if they opened to fans and the schedule worked out.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on April 28, 2020, 07:03:22 PM
Would love the opportunity to drive to KC from Omaha to see the brewers if they opened to fans and the schedule worked out.

This was basically my first thought too, ha.  All these cool AL parks and cities that we don't normally get a chance to see almost makes the no fans thing worse. 

On that note, why do the funky divisions at all?  What does it change in a covid-environment vs just playing a short season with the schedule as-is, with a couple tweaks to be intra-division heavy?  Teams are still going to be flying almost everywhere, I would imagine.  All the same dates in the fan-less stadiums.  Are the travel costs really that much lower just bunching into three geographic divisions like this? If not, I don't see the point.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2020, 08:16:12 AM
This was basically my first thought too, ha.  All these cool AL parks and cities that we don't normally get a chance to see almost makes the no fans thing worse. 

On that note, why do the funky divisions at all?  What does it change in a covid-environment vs just playing a short season with the schedule as-is, with a couple tweaks to be intra-division heavy?  Teams are still going to be flying almost everywhere, I would imagine.  All the same dates in the fan-less stadiums.  Are the travel costs really that much lower just bunching into three geographic divisions like this? If not, I don't see the point.


A couple of items.  First I think they want to geographically limit travel so that they can play more games without the need for as many off days.  I heard on ESPN this morning that they may allow for extra pitchers and 7 inning double headers to get the games in.

Also why move Pittsburgh out of its normal NL Central and substitute Atlanta?  And why not just keep the divisions but have the games be weighted more toward your usual division opponents?  Say 2/3 against your division and 1/3 intra league?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on April 29, 2020, 09:24:51 AM
I think a lot of this is Rob "piece of metal" Manfred throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. I still doubt MLB has a season this year.


In previous football threads, I, along with many others, have eviscerated Roger Goodell for some of his tactics. But no one can ever say that Roger doesn't love the NFL. I don't know that Manfred loves Major League baseball. Whether it was the sham and lies of the cheating scandal or his total disrespect of the Championship trophy, Manfred has repeatedly shown disdain for the league.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on April 29, 2020, 04:18:25 PM
That would be fun. Kind of odd they switched the Pirates and Braves. The West is the AL West and NL West combined. The Central and East are those two divisions combined but with only the Pirates and Braves switched.

It seems weird, but Atlanta is actually quite a bit further west than Pittsburgh (and Cleveland, Cincinnati and Detroit, for that matter).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: muwarrior69 on April 29, 2020, 04:49:18 PM
I think a lot of this is Rob "piece of metal" Manfred throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. I still doubt MLB has a season this year.


In previous football threads, I, along with many others, have eviscerated Roger Goodell for some of his tactics. But no one can ever say that Roger doesn't love the NFL. I don't know that Manfred loves Major League baseball. Whether it was the sham and lies of the cheating scandal or his total disrespect of the Championship trophy, Manfred has repeatedly shown disdain for the league.

I doubt the NFL will have a season this fall as well especially with the expectation of a second wave of outbreaks. Even if they play in empty stadiums how do the players not potentially not spread the virus among themselves. Are they going to quarantine the players for 5 months? Test them weekly? If one player test positive is his team then prevented from playing? The whole thing just seems so untenable until there is a vaccine or there is no second wave and the virus just seems to run its course.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on April 29, 2020, 04:56:19 PM
Oh good we’re backing to make broad assessments about stuff months in the future. We’re a full 4 months from the NFL season starting. 5 if you push it back a month and condense it. We’re talking about soccer starting around the world. Other countries are playing baseball and basketball in the next month. Assuming one of the biggest money makers in all of entertainment will not play, when they have over a trimester of time to figure out a way, is just Chicken Little paranoia. MLB is already behind the 8 ball and behind schedule, that’s a different story.

And yes, test them weekly. Why not?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on April 29, 2020, 06:34:59 PM
Our governor in Florida was talking about baseball with fans in late June.

With fans.

Makes sense to me given what's transgressed in Florida.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on April 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Oh good we’re backing to make broad assessments about stuff months in the future. We’re a full 4 months from the NFL season starting. 5 if you push it back a month and condense it. We’re talking about soccer starting around the world. Other countries are playing baseball and basketball in the next month. Assuming one of the biggest money makers in all of entertainment will not play, when they have over a trimester of time to figure out a way, is just Chicken Little paranoia. MLB is already behind the 8 ball and behind schedule, that’s a different story.

And yes, test them weekly. Why not?

While I doubt there will be an MLB season, my uneducated guess on the NFL is probably 60 / 40 that there will be some kind of a season.

As far as broad assessments in the future? As a businessman don’t you do that all of the time. Obviously much more of an educated opinion.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2020, 07:11:41 PM
Our governor in Florida was talking about baseball with fans in late June.

With fans.

Makes sense to me given what's transgressed in Florida.


It doesn't make sense at all, particularly since one of those teams is in the hard hit Dade County, and MLB would likely not allow it anyway.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on April 29, 2020, 08:07:02 PM
While I doubt there will be an MLB season, my uneducated guess on the NFL is probably 60 / 40 that there will be some kind of a season.

As far as broad assessments in the future? As a businessman don’t you do that all of the time. Obviously much more of an educated opinion.

Not involving large tactical charges or deviations from plan. Especially in the face of uncommon or entirely abnormal circumstances.

For example, we didn’t present at a trade show in HK in September, due to the protests and general tension in the region. First time in close to 15 years we didn’t have a booth presence, much less attend as visitors. There is a competing show, attended by most of the same people, that also takes place in late Feb, similar history of of attendance. By early November things were still dicey, China wasn’t ordering, my controller and another member of management started clamoring for clawing back the deposit on our booth, cancelling hotel reservations and airline tickets for those that had them. I was entirely opposed as anything could happen in the next 1-2 months, much less 3+.

Same thing here. It’s silly to start ruling things out when there are myriad contingency plans that could occur, beyond a normal season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 29, 2020, 08:15:11 PM
Not involving large tactical charges or deviations from plan. Especially in the face of uncommon or entirely abnormal circumstances.

For example, we didn’t present at a trade show in HK in September, due to the protests and general tension in the region. First time in close to 15 years we didn’t have a booth presence, much less attend as visitors. There is a competing show, attended by most of the same people, that also takes place in late Feb, similar history of of attendance. By early November things were still dicey, China wasn’t ordering, my controller and another member of management started clamoring for clawing back the deposit on our booth, cancelling hotel reservations and airline tickets for those that had them. I was entirely opposed as anything could happen in the next 1-2 months, much less 3+.

Same thing here. It’s silly to start ruling things out when there are myriad contingency plans that could occur, beyond a normal season.


He doesn't work for the NFL.  He's just making a prediction.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUfan12 on April 29, 2020, 08:25:19 PM
The problem with saying the NFL is 4 months is that the window for making decisions is way smaller than that. A month of training camp and you're down to 3. Not a lot of time to make those calls and possibly change course with all the moving parts.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on April 29, 2020, 08:35:50 PM

He doesn't work for the NFL.  He's just making a prediction.

I’m aware. And he’s certainly not alone in that prediction or mindset. I was just pushing back at people’s predictions and assumptions for things 4-6+ months from now using the current status quo. It’s become a pet peeve of mine, shrug
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on April 29, 2020, 11:17:57 PM
Not involving large tactical charges or deviations from plan. Especially in the face of uncommon or entirely abnormal circumstances.

For example, we didn’t present at a trade show in HK in September, due to the protests and general tension in the region. First time in close to 15 years we didn’t have a booth presence, much less attend as visitors. There is a competing show, attended by most of the same people, that also takes place in late Feb, similar history of of attendance. By early November things were still dicey, China wasn’t ordering, my controller and another member of management started clamoring for clawing back the deposit on our booth, cancelling hotel reservations and airline tickets for those that had them. I was entirely opposed as anything could happen in the next 1-2 months, much less 3+.

Same thing here. It’s silly to start ruling things out when there are myriad contingency plans that could occur, beyond a normal season.

I was just razzing you with the last paragraph- I should have used teal.


I didn’t mean to offend you or question your opinion. There are times we disagree, but I try to be as respectful as you have always been with me.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 30, 2020, 11:59:05 AM
Rolling the 2020 induction into the 2021 ceremony.


Hall of Fame cancels induction ceremony
ASSOCIATED PRESS

Mike Stobe / TNS
Derek Jeter and the rest of this year’s Baseball Hall of Fame class will have to wait for their big moment at Cooperstown.

Derek Jeter, Larry Walker and the rest of this year’s Baseball Hall of Fame class will have to wait another year for their big moment at Cooperstown.

The Hall of Fame announced Wednesday that it has canceled the July 26 induction ceremony because of the coronavirus pandemic.

Instead, the class will be included at next year’s induction festivities — along with any additional new choices — on July 25, 2021.

A record crowd of over 70,000 had been expected this summer in an outdoor field at the small town in upstate New York to honor Jeter, the former New York Yankees captain who came within one vote of unanimous election by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America in January.

Jeter and Walker were to be inducted with catcher Ted Simmons and the late Marvin Miller, the pioneering players’ union head who negotiated free agency and transformed the sport.

“Being inducted into the Hall of Fame will be an incredible honor, but the health and safety of everyone involved are paramount,” Jeter said in a statement released by the Hall.

“I respect and support the decision to postpone this year’s enshrinement and am looking forward to joining current Hall of Famers, fans, staff and my family and friends in Cooperstown in 2021,“ he said.

This will be the first year without an induction ceremony since 1960.

“It was a very difficult decision, but with so many unknowns facing the world, the board felt strongly that this was the right decision,” said Hall member Joe Morgan, vice chairman of the shrine’s board.

Record attendance for an induction ceremony was set in 2007, exceeding 70,000 when Cal Ripken Jr. and the late Tony Gwynn were enshrined. Cooperstown is within easy driving distance of the New York metro area, and loads of Yankees fans had already made their plans to see Jeter on the Hall stage.

The Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum closed at the end of the day on March 15 due to the virus outbreak.

Jeter, now the CEO of the Miami Marlins, and Walker were elected by member of the BBWAA. Simmons and Miller were chosen in December by the Hall’s Modern Era Committee.

“I fully understand and agree with the board’s decision,” Walker said in a statement from the Hall. “It is most important to do the right thing for everybody involved, and that means not putting any participants in jeopardy.“ Simmons echoed that view.

“I commend the board for making this decision under these difficult circumstances, particularly in New York, a state severely hit by the pandemic. This was the wisest and smartest thing to do, given the existing environment and the danger that this pandemic presents,“ he said.

Also to be honored during next year’s Hall induction weekend: 2020 Ford C. Frick Award winner Hawk Harrelson, 2020 J.G. Taylor Spink Award winner Nick Cafardo and the winner of the 2020 Buck O’Neil Lifetime Achievement Award, David Montgomery.

Jeter, a key to five World Series titles, was on 396 of 397 ballots in voting announced Jan. 21. The only player with a higher percentage was former Yankees teammate Mariano Rivera, who became the first unanimous pick in 2019. Walker, making his 10th ballot appearance, got 304 votes — six over the threshold.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on May 04, 2020, 11:55:16 PM
Korean baseball opening night on ESPN.

Pick your team, rolling with the NC Dinos this season.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on May 05, 2020, 06:24:03 AM
I’m aware. And he’s certainly not alone in that prediction or mindset. I was just pushing back at people’s predictions and assumptions for things 4-6+ months from now using the current status quo. It’s become a pet peeve of mine, shrug

Brother Wags:

This is a pet peeve of mine as well.

The real question that must now be asked is, "What's the objective standard for reopening society?"

Our nation must balance the medical risk with the economic, social and even political risk of continuing to deprive people of their liberties. If last weekend taught us anything, it is that people already are at the end of their ropes sheltering in place and the longer this goes, the more likely it becomes that folks openly defy their government.

Sunday, for example, Mayor Lightfoot in Chicago was chiding people for house parties. The Chicago Tribune ran a story about touring famous cemeteries, even as the Mayor closed the parks. Down here, in Brevard County (home of the space center and Jeannie from "I Dream of Jeannie"), the beaches were technically closed. But if you drove along Florida A1A, everyplace where there was a public beach access, there were dozens of cars parked on the side of the highway and people who ignored the barriers and headed to the beach.

If we wait to open the economy until we have a workable vaccine, it will be 12 to 18 months at least. Likewise, if we wait until the rise in cases falls to 0, see the 12 to 18 month prediction. What we don't know is the "ins and outs," or how many people at a point in time actually have the virus. That number is far more elusive. We need to decide on a reasonable, risk-balanced standard and then execute on it.

To assume we're not going to have baseball, football, or MU basketball for that matter next fall, has far greater implications on our society than simply no sports. It has a potential to bankrupt our economy and put tens of millions of more Americans out of work.

Here's to our leaders in Florida! They balanced medical risk with social, political and economic risk and began opening our state this week.

 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 05, 2020, 07:53:22 AM
Brother Wags:

This is a pet peeve of mine as well.

The real question that must now be asked is, "What's the objective standard for reopening society?"

Our nation must balance the medical risk with the economic, social and even political risk of continuing to deprive people of their liberties. If last weekend taught us anything, it is that people already are at the end of their ropes sheltering in place and the longer this goes, the more likely it becomes that folks openly defy their government.

Sunday, for example, Mayor Lightfoot in Chicago was chiding people for house parties. The Chicago Tribune ran a story about touring famous cemeteries, even as the Mayor closed the parks. Down here, in Brevard County (home of the space center and Jeannie from "I Dream of Jeannie"), the beaches were technically closed. But if you drove along Florida A1A, everyplace where there was a public beach access, there were dozens of cars parked on the side of the highway and people who ignored the barriers and headed to the beach.

If we wait to open the economy until we have a workable vaccine, it will be 12 to 18 months at least. Likewise, if we wait until the rise in cases falls to 0, see the 12 to 18 month prediction. What we don't know is the "ins and outs," or how many people at a point in time actually have the virus. That number is far more elusive. We need to decide on a reasonable, risk-balanced standard and then execute on it.

To assume we're not going to have baseball, football, or MU basketball for that matter next fall, has far greater implications on our society than simply no sports. It has a potential to bankrupt our economy and put tens of millions of more Americans out of work.

Here's to our leaders in Florida! They balanced medical risk with social, political and economic risk and began opening our state this week.


No one is saying the bolded.  Those are strawman arguments right there.

Pretty much everyone agrees with you up until the final two paragraphs.  The economy is going to have to "open up," but that is nowhere near the magic bullet some people think its going to be.

But no sports isn't going to put "tens of millions of more Americans out of work."  That is a complete exaggeration.  Nowhere close to reality.  Even the broadest of economic impact studies, which I think are often a load of bullsh*t anyway, put the figure at about half a million.  And sports will occur, just without crowds or reduced crowds.

And your governor gets no credit until he releases all of the data that he is preventing counties from releasing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on May 05, 2020, 02:35:58 PM

No one is saying the bolded.  Those are strawman arguments right there.

Pretty much everyone agrees with you up until the final two paragraphs.  The economy is going to have to "open up," but that is nowhere near the magic bullet some people think its going to be.

But no sports isn't going to put "tens of millions of more Americans out of work."  That is a complete exaggeration.  Nowhere close to reality.  Even the broadest of economic impact studies, which I think are often a load of bullsh*t anyway, put the figure at about half a million.  And sports will occur, just without crowds or reduced crowds.

And your governor gets no credit until he releases all of the data that he is preventing counties from releasing.

Brother Fluff;

You and I would be good with a pitcher of beer, two glasses and a chance to debate the issues of the day. It would be fun!

Let me clarify for you, good brother. Baseball crowds are symptomatic of bigger issues in society. No crowds means the fear level in our country will be out of control or, alternatively, that abuse of emergency  powers will be an everyday occurrence. If we can't gather in any meaningful concentrations for anything -- be it sports, work, Mass, traffic jams on the Kennedy, concerts in the park or even First Fridays in Libertyville -- we're going to have much larger problems than sports.

And if the NFL doesn't play with audiences, the situation with large gatherings generally will be so severe I doubt we can avoid a Depression. The NFL is a symptom, not the cause.

We have a Constitution. No where in the Constitution does it say the federal government can abridge freedom of movement, freedom of assembly and even freedom of speech, because it's inconvenient. We accept a short-term emergency basically voluntarily because we believe in the value of extraordinary precautions.

Like it or not, there's a segment of society (and we see quite a bit of it here in Florida) that wants the country forcibly locked down until we have a vaccine or until the virus is all but gone. They're called senior citizens and many are scared and vulnerable right now. Here in Florida, our economy is restarting and there's a big segment of the senior citizen population that's madder than Gehenna.

We need clarity under which the existing problems will end and we need to be fully cognizant of what the risk will be of continued sheltering in place.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 06, 2020, 08:35:22 PM
Brother Fluff;

You and I would be good with a pitcher of beer, two glasses and a chance to debate the issues of the day. It would be fun!

Let me clarify for you, good brother. Baseball crowds are symptomatic of bigger issues in society. No crowds means the fear level in our country will be out of control or, alternatively, that abuse of emergency  powers will be an everyday occurrence. If we can't gather in any meaningful concentrations for anything -- be it sports, work, Mass, traffic jams on the Kennedy, concerts in the park or even First Fridays in Libertyville -- we're going to have much larger problems than sports.

And if the NFL doesn't play with audiences, the situation with large gatherings generally will be so severe I doubt we can avoid a Depression. The NFL is a symptom, not the cause.

We have a Constitution. No where in the Constitution does it say the federal government can abridge freedom of movement, freedom of assembly and even freedom of speech, because it's inconvenient. We accept a short-term emergency basically voluntarily because we believe in the value of extraordinary precautions.

Like it or not, there's a segment of society (and we see quite a bit of it here in Florida) that wants the country forcibly locked down until we have a vaccine or until the virus is all but gone. They're called senior citizens and many are scared and vulnerable right now. Here in Florida, our economy is restarting and there's a big segment of the senior citizen population that's madder than Gehenna.

We need clarity under which the existing problems will end and we need to be fully cognizant of what the risk will be of continued sheltering in place.


I do t know what to say other than you’re naive. There will not be crowds in the stands for baseball this year. There might not be baseball at all. What if a player tests positive?  What if a significant number of players say “nah” and skip 2020 altogether?

Baseball isn’t responsible for entertaining us at their detriment.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 07, 2020, 10:46:55 PM
Officially rooting for the NC Dinos.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on May 08, 2020, 12:00:49 AM
Ive been partial to the SK Wyverns cause for an ESL country, Wyverns is an absolutely incredible mascot
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on May 08, 2020, 09:24:45 AM

I do t know what to say other than you’re naive. There will not be crowds in the stands for baseball this year. There might not be baseball at all. What if a player tests positive?  What if a significant number of players say “nah” and skip 2020 altogether?

Baseball isn’t responsible for entertaining us at their detriment.

Brother Fluff:

Already, people are pushing back on the notion that they can't gather and they can't do the things they normally do as the weather turns pleasant. Whether it's baseball, dining out, going to Mass or whatever, folks are closing in on their limits.

If fear drives us to the point that there's no baseball, what that says about our society is openly scary. That's my point. Already, unemployment in Illinois is 14.7 percent, the highest it's been since the Depression. The largest private sector employer in the state is restaurants (which should tell you something about Illinois, but that's another story) and now the governor is saying the earliest they can open is June 26th.

I'd like baseball to come back and I'd like to be at a Brewers game this summer! I'd admit there's a possibility that regulatory fiat may prevent that. But I also would like to note that selective isolation of our most vulnerable populations, responsible actions among healthy people etc., probably would abate much of the problem. At some point, we have to stop behaving like this is the Andromeda Strain.

Ultimately, I'm not willing to concede my civil liberties will be limited for the next 18 months.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 08, 2020, 10:27:02 AM
Dude not going to a baseball game has nothing to do with your civil liberties.

Yes the economy has to open up. And it will. But large crowds at sporting events will be the last thing that does. Perhaps properly spaced, smaller crowds are a possibility but full stands for baseball this year?  Not. A. Chance.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 08, 2020, 11:50:31 AM
Ive been partial to the SK Wyverns cause for an ESL country, Wyverns is an absolutely incredible mascot

That it is.  And I almost went with them too, ultimately, my daughter preferred Dinos.  So there I am.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Bad_Reporter on May 12, 2020, 03:57:36 PM
Was just told.   “ Looks like training camp begins mid June season July early. Camp might be in  Milwaukee.. ”

Here’s to hoping that happens
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WithoutBias on May 12, 2020, 04:36:16 PM
Was just told.   “ Looks like training camp begins mid June season July early. Camp might be in  Milwaukee.. ”

Here’s to hoping that happens

So your source can read ESPN.com, SI.com, or any other publication that covers sports?

I'm guessing your source also told you that teams will play an 82 game season, there will be 14 Playoff teams for an extra Wild Card round, universal DH, 30 man rosters with a 20 man taxi squad, divisions will remain the same but teams will only play other teams from their division and the teams in the same geographical division from the other league, revenue sharing for the players for the first time ever, and games played in empty home ballparks, unless teams can't make that happen and then at their own spring training sites?

The owners have already agreed to this proposal.  The Players Association is expected to reject it.  But my guess is, with further negotiations regarding what the revenue sharing part of it will mean for player contracts going forward, we will get most of what is being proposed in terms of rules and schedule for this season.

Whether they can actually keep teams from having to quarantine will be seen when Summer Training gets under way.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Bad_Reporter on May 12, 2020, 05:11:17 PM
So your source can read ESPN.com, SI.com, or any other publication that covers sports?

I'm guessing your source also told you that teams will play an 82 game season, there will be 14 Playoff teams for an extra Wild Card round, universal DH, 30 man rosters with a 20 man taxi squad, divisions will remain the same but teams will only play other teams from their division and the teams in the same geographical division from the other league, revenue sharing for the players for the first time ever, and games played in empty home ballparks, unless teams can't make that happen and then at their own spring training sites?

The owners have already agreed to this proposal.  The Players Association is expected to reject it.  But my guess is, with further negotiations regarding what the revenue sharing part of it will mean for player contracts going forward, we will get most of what is being proposed in terms of rules and schedule for this season.

Whether they can actually keep teams from having to quarantine will be seen when Summer Training gets under way.

BD,  not going to get into a pissing match with you.  When I want to know when Davante Gardner is bringing his warmups to a game, and still won’t play for numerous games, I’ll reach out.  Thanks
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 12, 2020, 06:55:46 PM
I think pitchers hitting is going to be a casualty of Covid.  For you fans of pitchers hitting, my deepest heartfelt apologies that you will no longer get to watch guys that don't practice hitting hit. 

The Cubs are probably pretty happy about it, so Schwarber won't have to play the OF anymore.  I don't know if there could be another NL team as well positioned for the DH.  The Reds could be well positioned there too.

Yasiel Puig is probably pretty happy about it as well.

Also I think this delay is an advantage for the Nationals, their pitchers threw a ton of innings last season, and now will be fresher through this season, provided it still happens.  Often, teams that win the WS fall off because their pitchers can't hold up to the extra inning load.  The Nats shouldn't have to worry about Strasburg, Scherzer and Corbin as much.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on May 12, 2020, 07:01:42 PM
I think pitchers hitting is going to be a casualty of Covid.  For you fans of pitchers hitting, my deepest heartfelt apologies that you will no longer get to watch guys that don't practice hitting hit. 

The Cubs are probably pretty happy about it, so Schwarber won't have to play the OF anymore.  I don't know if there could be another NL team as well positioned for the DH.  The Reds could be well positioned there too.

Yasiel Puig is probably pretty happy about it as well.

Also I think this delay is an advantage for the Nationals, their pitchers threw a ton of innings last season, and now will be fresher through this season, provided it still happens.  Often, teams that win the WS fall off because their pitchers can't hold up to the extra inning load.  The Nats shouldn't have to worry about Strasburg, Scherzer and Corbin as much.

Jimmy Nelson’s injury ended any resistance I had to the DH.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 12, 2020, 07:16:13 PM
Apparently the CBA with the players has no provision to pay less than full salary if the season goes on. No matter the length. Of course the owners want that renegotiated.

And apparently the NFL has to pay their players regardless if there is a season or not.

Players may finally have some leverage.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on May 13, 2020, 11:26:20 AM
Apparently the CBA with the players has no provision to pay less than full salary if the season goes on. No matter the length. Of course the owners want that renegotiated.

And apparently the NFL has to pay their players regardless if there is a season or not.

Players may finally have some leverage.

Players agreed to pro-rate already, but as the MLB has realized that revenues will go down beyond the pro-rated number of games, MLB wants to renegotiate again. Players have leverage right now, but you can guarantee the owners will (just conveniently and in complete lockstep) exact revenge in subsequent years. Players should hold fast - let's not forget that player salaries have been nose-diving over the past 3 years already. Not a dime back,eh?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 13, 2020, 12:09:28 PM

Players may finally have some leverage.

Someone should have told Donald Fehr that he never had any leverage.  He did exceptionally well without it I guess.

Players agreed to pro-rate already, but as the MLB has realized that revenues will go down beyond the pro-rated number of games, MLB wants to renegotiate again. Players have leverage right now, but you can guarantee the owners will (just conveniently and in complete lockstep) exact revenge in subsequent years. Players should hold fast - let's not forget that player salaries have been nose-diving over the past 3 years already. Not a dime back,eh?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/236213/mean-salaray-of-players-in-majpr-league-baseball/

Down, but not quite nosediving.  And that is the average.  It is the lower end veterans that have been losing out.  The high end, well...

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020-mlb-free-agent-tracker/sort_column-amount__sort_direction-0

There are about 50 guys making 20 million per season or more. 

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

Plenty of guys made plenty of money.  This current version of the CBA hasn't been great for players, but in their negotiations, they focused on things other than salary considerations.  The owners, well, pretty much always focus on salary.  Things like the QO and arbitration will be huge in the next CBA I think.

I don't get why the MLBPA so readily agreed to the modifications to the draft this year (which personally I couldn't hate more).  Sure, there had to be some, but 5 rounds with a max of 20K for guys not drafted?  That's crazy cost control the owners got through with no push back at all.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 13, 2020, 12:18:14 PM
Someone should have told Donald Fehr that he never had any leverage.  He did exceptionally well without it I guess.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/236213/mean-salaray-of-players-in-majpr-league-baseball/

Down, but not quite nosediving.  And that is the average.  It is the lower end veterans that have been losing out.  The high end, well...

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020-mlb-free-agent-tracker/sort_column-amount__sort_direction-0

There are about 50 guys making 20 million per season or more. 

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/

Plenty of guys made plenty of money.  This current version of the CBA hasn't been great for players, but in their negotiations, they focused on things other than salary considerations.  The owners, well, pretty much always focus on salary.  Things like the QO and arbitration will be huge in the next CBA I think.

I don't get why the MLBPA so readily agreed to the modifications to the draft this year (which personally I couldn't hate more).  Sure, there had to be some, but 5 rounds with a max of 20K for guys not drafted?  That's crazy cost control the owners got through with no push back at all.

Fehr’s long gone and the union has suffered for it. Players unions have by and large lost leverage for years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 13, 2020, 12:19:38 PM
Fehr’s long gone and the union has suffered for it. Players unions have by and large lost leverage for years.

Absolutely.  But they have prioritized different things.  Tony Clark was seemingly a better hitter than union boss.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on May 13, 2020, 12:22:53 PM
Absolutely.  But they have prioritized different things.  Tony Clark was seemingly a better hitter than union boss.

What made Clark qualified for this? It seems they went with lawyers prior to him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on May 13, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
Is it the owners and the CBA or advanced stats telling GM not to give huge money/long deals to a dude that's gonna be washed up in a few years?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 13, 2020, 12:35:02 PM
Absolutely.  But they have prioritized different things.  Tony Clark was seemingly a better hitter than union boss.

Agreed on all counts.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 13, 2020, 02:46:12 PM
Is it the owners and the CBA or advanced stats telling GM not to give huge money/long deals to a dude that's gonna be washed up in a few years?

It is the advanced stats squeezing out the mediocre veterans, and the CBA squeezing the good veterans and younger players.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on May 13, 2020, 03:15:39 PM
The Cubs are probably pretty happy about it, so Schwarber won't have to play the OF anymore.  I don't know if there could be another NL team as well positioned for the DH.  The Reds could be well positioned there too.
According to this article, the Diamondbacks, Braves, Reds, Dodgers, Brewers, Mets, Phillies, and Nationals are all "better positioned" for a DH than the Cubs.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/how-will-nl-teams-use-universal-dh-grading-each-teams-situation-as-mlb-owners-propose-return-to-play-plans/ (https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/how-will-nl-teams-use-universal-dh-grading-each-teams-situation-as-mlb-owners-propose-return-to-play-plans/)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 13, 2020, 04:16:55 PM
According to this article, the Diamondbacks, Braves, Reds, Dodgers, Brewers, Mets, Phillies, and Nationals are all "better positioned" for a DH than the Cubs.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/how-will-nl-teams-use-universal-dh-grading-each-teams-situation-as-mlb-owners-propose-return-to-play-plans/ (https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/how-will-nl-teams-use-universal-dh-grading-each-teams-situation-as-mlb-owners-propose-return-to-play-plans/)

Those are certainly fair and true.  Though, many of those are more just that the teams are better and have more depth, like the Braves.  The Braves are better suited for it, but would you rather have Schwarber or Adam Duvall as your DH? 
I worded it wrong.  More what I meant was, there can't be many NL teams that will get better production out of their DH.
The Dodgers are a huge miss on my part.  They have so much talent and depth, they will likely have better DH production than some AL teams.  Pederson could basically full time DH.  They could play Lux at 2B or 3B and DH Muncy or Turner.  They are stacked. 
I like the Mets too, Dominic Smith can hit, and now he has a spot( though still, him producing more than Schwarber at least this year, is a stretch).  Cespedes?  Certainly, but he needs to prove he can play more than 5 games.

As for the others... I'm more skeptical

Braun or Schwarber at DH? 
Jake Lamb or Schwarber?
Starlin Castro/ Asdrubal Cabrera or Schwarber?
Jay Bruce or Schwarber?

Are the Nats, Phillies, etc. more prepared for this than the Cubs?  Yeah, probably.  But will they get more out of their DHs than the Cubs?  I doubt it.  They also get the plus of getting an absolute butcher out of LF, though many of the teams will see that same benefit. 


Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 13, 2020, 04:43:02 PM
Those are certainly fair and true.  Though, many of those are more just that the teams are better and have more depth, like the Braves.  The Braves are better suited for it, but would you rather have Schwarber or Adam Duvall as your DH? 
I worded it wrong.  More what I meant was, there can't be many NL teams that will get better production out of their DH.
The Dodgers are a huge miss on my part.  They have so much talent and depth, they will likely have better DH production than some AL teams.  Pederson could basically full time DH.  They could play Lux at 2B or 3B and DH Muncy or Turner.  They are stacked. 
I like the Mets too, Dominic Smith can hit, and now he has a spot( though still, him producing more than Schwarber at least this year, is a stretch).  Cespedes?  Certainly, but he needs to prove he can play more than 5 games.

As for the others... I'm more skeptical

Braun or Schwarber at DH? 
Jake Lamb or Schwarber?
Starlin Castro/ Asdrubal Cabrera or Schwarber?
Jay Bruce or Schwarber?

Are the Nats, Phillies, etc. more prepared for this than the Cubs?  Yeah, probably.  But will they get more out of their DHs than the Cubs?  I doubt it.  They also get the plus of getting an absolute butcher out of LF, though many of the teams will see that same benefit.

I think you’re overrating Schwarber. He’s probably going to be a better DH than a decent amount of NL DHs, but I doubt it’ll be by much.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 13, 2020, 05:59:53 PM
I think you’re overrating Schwarber. He’s probably going to be a better DH than a decent amount of NL DHs, but I doubt it’ll be by much.

Maybe I am, though, that isn't really my natural inclination.  Those other guys are pretty rough.
Lamb's last 2 seasons are .208/.315/.350.   
Duvall  .212/.284/.413
Jay Bruce .219/.287/.445
Starlin Castro .274/.314/.418
Cabrera .261/.328/.450
Braun .271/.329/.488

Braun is the only one that put up good numbers across the board.  Castro and Cabrera are fine, but not too much pop there.

Schwarber .245/.347/.503

By the way, .267/327/.473 with 34 SBs... That is Yasiel Puig, just waiting for a call...


Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: drewm88 on May 14, 2020, 09:33:46 AM
You're overrating Schwarber as a hitter and underrating him as a fielder. The butcher narrative comes from a few high profile mistakes, most that took place in the playoffs 5 years ago.

Defensive stats have their issues, but they show him to be more or less average in the outfield. Same goes for the eye test if you're watching him regularly.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 14, 2020, 10:58:48 AM
You're overrating Schwarber as a hitter and underrating him as a fielder. The butcher narrative comes from a few high profile mistakes, most that took place in the playoffs 5 years ago.

Defensive stats have their issues, but they show him to be more or less average in the outfield. Same goes for the eye test if you're watching him regularly.

Not sure where you'd get this.  I mean, I just copied the numbers from bbref... so...

He is what he is as a hitter.  He will K a lot and have a mediocre to bad average, but he will walk a decent amount and have an OBP around .340 or so.  He will also hit homers and likely slug somewhere around .490. 
I feel confident that I am neither over or underrating him as a hitter, as this is what his stats say that he is.  He could easily have an outlier year one way or another, but most likely, he will be around those numbers. 

Never thought I'd see the day where I was accused of overrating cubs multiple times in a day.

And he is a butcher in the field.  I've seen him take horrible routes, get bad starts, and look like an oaf, and I don't watch them much.  They weren't all from the playoffs a couple years (yeah it wasn't close to 5- more like 2.
 5 years ago he was a catcher - mostly in the minors.) ago either.  As you say, there are problems with defensive stats, but be that as it may, whether you use advanced stats, traditional stats or the eye test, he is below average. 
 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: drewm88 on May 14, 2020, 05:09:13 PM
Overrated refers to how you're claiming he's going to be this great DH, obviously not your statistics you later posted.

In 2015, Schwarber was called up and played 69 games, less than 1/3 of them were at catcher. He played in all 9 postseason games, broke the Cubs postseason home run record, and made multiple awful plays in the field in the NLCS against the Mets.

Also, defensive stats put him around average as a fielder, as I said previously.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Keithtisbarf on May 14, 2020, 06:15:31 PM
Was just told.   “ Looks like training camp begins mid June season July early. Camp might be in  Milwaukee.. ”

Here’s to hoping that happens

Was just told by who?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 14, 2020, 07:56:32 PM
Overrated refers to how you're claiming he's going to be this great DH, obviously not your statistics you later posted.

In 2015, Schwarber was called up and played 69 games, less than 1/3 of them were at catcher. He played in all 9 postseason games, broke the Cubs postseason home run record, and made multiple awful plays in the field in the NLCS against the Mets.

Also, defensive stats put him around average as a fielder, as I said previously.

Sorry I didnt realize saying he will be better than Adam Duvall and Jake Lamb meant I thought he would be "great".  I don't think he's great,  never thought he was great, he's flawed as a hitter, but he gets on base and hits for power.  That's a good start on a DH.

Every adavnced defensive number I looked at for him started with a minus sign.

And I must have had my years crossed.  The errors he made in the 2017 playoffs were after he improved out there.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 14, 2020, 08:03:02 PM
Sorry I didnt realize saying he will be better than Adam Duvall and Jake Lamb meant I thought he would be "great".  I don't think he's great,  never thought he was great, he's flawed as a hitter, but he gets on base and hits for power.  That's a good start on a DH.

Every adavnced defensive number I looked at for him started with a minus sign.

And I must have had my years crossed.  The errors he made in the 2017 playoffs were after he improved out there.

You said you didn’t think there was another NL team that would benefit more from having the DH available. I took that as you thought Schwarber was some dominant hitter who now doesn’t need to play in the field, which is why I thought you were overrating Schwarber. I read it as if you were saying he was significantly better than most might be able to put in that spot in the NL, which I don’t think is the case. Better than some for sure but I don’t think he’s an elite hitter.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 14, 2020, 10:10:55 PM
Just meant they had a ready made DH.  I regret bringing it up.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on May 15, 2020, 08:49:25 AM
Baseball players once again proving themselves to collectively be the least intelligent and most tone deaf of all the professional athletes, no?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 15, 2020, 09:33:03 AM
Baseball players once again proving themselves to collectively be the least intelligent and most tone deaf of all the professional athletes, no?

I do think that the MLBPA has the worst PR machine of any of the labor constituencies in the major sports.  They are going to get destoryed by the owners in the media battle - its already begun. Owners are united and have been hitting the pavement hard to make the players look out of touch, even though I think Blake Snell is pretty much objectively correct, for example.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on May 15, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
I do think that the MLBPA has the worst PR machine of any of the labor constituencies in the major sports.  They are going to get destoryed by the owners in the media battle - its already begun. Owners are united and have been hitting the pavement hard to make the players look out of touch, even though I think Blake Snell is pretty much objectively correct, for example.

He might be "correct," but fans don't want to hear it, and there isn't a soul who feels sorry for him.

This wasn't a union thing, per se. It was a tone-deaf player sounding like a dope.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 15, 2020, 09:54:50 AM
Snell is spot on.  While the rest of the world is refusing to get on airplanes, stay in hotels, or come close to other human beings, he’s being asked to take half of what his pay is to put himself at risk?  How does that make any sense?  I get it, you’re playing half a season so you’re not going to be paid for the work you didn’t do.  But why should these guys have to take risks other people don’t?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 15, 2020, 09:56:41 AM
He might be "correct," but fans don't want to hear it, and there isn't a soul who feels sorry for him.

This wasn't a union thing, per se. It was a tone-deaf player sounding like a dope.

Yeah, it sounds pretty stupid to say he's risking his life for nothing, when, really there are many others that are taking on much more risk for far less.  If MLB comes back, you'd think it would be a fairly controlled environment, at least compared to working at a grocery store or hospital. 

While he has every right to that money, it seems ridiculous to say it how he said it, when so many people are really suffering financial and economical hardships right now.  There would have been better ways to get his point across. 

And I totally get the players being suspicious of the owners.  There are also some pretty unique circumstances right now, and you'd think the MLBPA would understand that.  Especially because this is the owners first proposal in a negotiation.  Trying to carry out the negotiation in public probably doesn't help anyone.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on May 15, 2020, 10:01:06 AM
I do think that the MLBPA has the worst PR machine of any of the labor constituencies in the major sports.  They are going to get destoryed by the owners in the media battle - its already begun. Owners are united and have been hitting the pavement hard to make the players look out of touch, even though I think Blake Snell is pretty much objectively correct, for example.

I'm on the players' side regarding how they should get paid. Don't pay them for the games that aren't played, of course, but they should get every dime they're owed for the games that are played.
But public statements how "I gots to get paid" and "I'm putting my life at risk" are idiotic and drain away what public support you have as players.
Doctors, nurses, grocery store workers, meat plant workers, construction workers, etc., are putting their lives at risk. A 27-year-old athlete playing baseball in a highly controlled environment surrounded by top-level medical care is not putting his life at risk.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 15, 2020, 10:04:34 AM
I have a pipe dream that this pandemic actually engenders a little worker solidarity, and all those meat packers and grocery store workers are glad to see someone who has that bargaining power actually use it, and say what all those low wage workers wish they could say. But I'm sure I'm probably wrong and we'll all just continue pissing on each other's heads.

EDIT: lol pissing on each other's legs. leaving the original to show I'm an idiot and no one should listen to anything i say
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on May 15, 2020, 10:04:56 AM
But why should these guys have to take risks other people don’t?

They don't have to do anything. MLB has said players that don't want to play won't be forced to play.
And millions of people are taking far greater risks every day. Playing baseball under the circumstances that have been laid out is going to be much less dangerous than going to the grocery store, much less working in one.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 15, 2020, 10:38:23 AM
They don't have to do anything. MLB has said players that don't want to play won't be forced to play.
And millions of people are taking far greater risks every day. Playing baseball under the circumstances that have been laid out is going to be much less dangerous than going to the grocery store, much less working in one.

That’s all he’s saying. If he’s playing, he’s getting paid what he signed to play for. If he’s not getting that, no need for him to put himself, and then his family, at risk.

If I had millions of dollars to my name and was responsible with that money, there’s no way I’d be interested in hopping on airplanes to stay in hotels and then come home to my family while being paid less than what I agreed to.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 15, 2020, 10:49:42 AM
If I had millions of dollars to my name and was responsible with that money, there’s no way I’d be interested in hopping on airplanes to stay in hotels and then come home to my family while being paid less than what I agreed to.

Plus, there's a huge dfference between taking prorated salary and taking a proportion whatever is there after a 50/50 split of revenue with the owners.  That's what Snell is talking about.  These guys aren't saying "I won't go out there unless I'm paid my full year's salary for playing half the year."  They're saying they won't let the owners renegotiate the deal.

The collective bargaining agreement put the risk-reward on the owners.  You owe the players what you owe them, and you keep the rest. If TV deals and the gate make crazy $, you keep that upside.  You also take the risk of the downside.  Now they want to split that downside 50/50 with the players.

AND if the MLBPA agrees, its guys like Snell that will get hurt the most.  With no spring traning, there will be expanded rosters, which means even more pre-arb guys.  You can't hardly cut the salaries of those pre-arb guys pro-rata after splitting revenue with the owners - they already don't make any money.  So where is all of that loss going to come from? It will have to come from guys like Snell, who will be risking your typical pitching injuries in addition to the 'rona for what, half of the prorated version of their bargained for salary. He's right, screw that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on May 15, 2020, 11:23:44 AM
That’s all he’s saying. If he’s playing, he’s getting paid what he signed to play for. If he’s not getting that, no need for him to put himself, and then his family, at risk.

If I had millions of dollars to my name and was responsible with that money, there’s no way I’d be interested in hopping on airplanes to stay in hotels and then come home to my family while being paid less than what I agreed to.

I don't think anyone here at least is saying the players should accept less than their contract states.
The point is Snell's remarks did a poor job of stating the players' case, plays into the stereotype that all they care about is the money, will alienate potential supporters and  likely to harm the players' side in what will become - as these things invariably do - a PR battle.
You can be on the players' side while also recognizing the stupidity of Snell's comments.

For comparison's sake and how it ought to be handled, see Nolan Arenado.
https://theathletic.com/1815647/2020/05/14/rosenthal-nolan-arenado-on-talks-with-mlb-health-risks-and-wanting-to-play/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 15, 2020, 11:24:34 AM

The collective bargaining agreement put the risk-reward on the owners.  You owe the players what you owe them, and you keep the rest. If TV deals and the gate make crazy $, you keep that upside.  You also take the risk of the downside.  Now they want to split that downside 50/50 with the players.


Hey its the American way! 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 15, 2020, 11:47:33 AM
I'm on the players' side regarding how they should get paid. Don't pay them for the games that aren't played, of course, but they should get every dime they're owed for the games that are played.
But public statements how "I gots to get paid" and "I'm putting my life at risk" are idiotic and drain away what public support you have as players.
Doctors, nurses, grocery store workers, meat plant workers, construction workers, etc., are putting their lives at risk. A 27-year-old athlete playing baseball in a highly controlled environment surrounded by top-level medical care is not putting his life at risk.

This sums up the situation perfectly.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on May 15, 2020, 12:59:04 PM
Yeah, it sounds pretty stupid to say he's risking his life for nothing, when, really there are many others that are taking on much more risk for far less.  If MLB comes back, you'd think it would be a fairly controlled environment, at least compared to working at a grocery store or hospital. 

While he has every right to that money, it seems ridiculous to say it how he said it, when so many people are really suffering financial and economical hardships right now.  There would have been better ways to get his point across. 

And I totally get the players being suspicious of the owners.  There are also some pretty unique circumstances right now, and you'd think the MLBPA would understand that.  Especially because this is the owners first proposal in a negotiation.  Trying to carry out the negotiation in public probably doesn't help anyone.

Yep.

I'm on the players' side regarding how they should get paid. Don't pay them for the games that aren't played, of course, but they should get every dime they're owed for the games that are played.
But public statements how "I gots to get paid" and "I'm putting my life at risk" are idiotic and drain away what public support you have as players.
Doctors, nurses, grocery store workers, meat plant workers, construction workers, etc., are putting their lives at risk. A 27-year-old athlete playing baseball in a highly controlled environment surrounded by top-level medical care is not putting his life at risk.

And yep.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 15, 2020, 01:02:36 PM
I don't think anyone here at least is saying the players should accept less than their contract states.
The point is Snell's remarks did a poor job of stating the players' case, plays into the stereotype that all they care about is the money, will alienate potential supporters and  likely to harm the players' side in what will become - as these things invariably do - a PR battle.
You can be on the players' side while also recognizing the stupidity of Snell's comments.

For comparison's sake and how it ought to be handled, see Nolan Arenado.
https://theathletic.com/1815647/2020/05/14/rosenthal-nolan-arenado-on-talks-with-mlb-health-risks-and-wanting-to-play/

Snell can handle it how he wants to, just like any other player can handle it how they want to. It’s easy for me to sit working from home because of this and say “shut up and pitch the ball. You’re getting paid millions of dollars to do it.” If I was being put in place as a guinea pig to see how sports are handled with the risk of coronavirus I’d probably say, “Sure, pay me what I agreed to” as well. Otherwise I’ll pass on hopping on airplanes, staying in hotels, and then returning home to my family until we know more about this. If the people who can’t go into their offices because of a deadly virus want to sit on their computers at home and call me tone deaf so be it would be my mindset.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 15, 2020, 01:46:19 PM
Snell can handle it how he wants to, just like any other player can handle it how they want to.

No one is suggesting otherwise.  Pakuni simply said it comes off as tone deaf.  And it is.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 15, 2020, 02:41:06 PM
Snell can handle it how he wants to, just like any other player can handle it how they want to. It’s easy for me to sit working from home because of this and say “shut up and pitch the ball. You’re getting paid millions of dollars to do it.” If I was being put in place as a guinea pig to see how sports are handled with the risk of coronavirus I’d probably say, “Sure, pay me what I agreed to” as well. Otherwise I’ll pass on hopping on airplanes, staying in hotels, and then returning home to my family until we know more about this. If the people who can’t go into their offices because of a deadly virus want to sit on their computers at home and call me tone deaf so be it would be my mindset.

You’re 100% correct. Snell has every right to come off as an a$$hole. Free country.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 15, 2020, 02:52:31 PM
You’re 100% correct. Snell has every right to come off as an a$$hole. Free country.

That’s one opinion. The other opinion is it’s pretty reasonable he wouldn’t be jumping for joy if he not only has to put his, and by extension his family’s, health at risk while working under different terms than what he signed his contract to that he didn’t get to negotiate, all while taking a pay cut.

But maybe like college athletes the love of the game should be enough and they should just shut up and play the game.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 15, 2020, 07:27:29 PM
That’s one opinion. The other opinion is it’s pretty reasonable he wouldn’t be jumping for joy if he not only has to put his, and by extension his family’s, health at risk while working under different terms than what he signed his contract to that he didn’t get to negotiate, all while taking a pay cut.


So he’ll risk his family’s life for X dollars but not for Y. You actually believe that in the present environment that is a well reasoned argument that will win friends?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 15, 2020, 07:33:56 PM
So he’ll risk his family’s life for X dollars but not for Y. You actually believe that in the present environment that is a well reasoned argument that will win friends?

I believe the guy signed a contract and now billionaires want to pay him less to put himself at an unneeded risk. He didn’t sign up to take a pay cut to entertain people during a global pandemic. I don’t blame him one bit for not jumping for joy.

But it is funny coming from you, constantly questioning at what cost we kill the economy to save a life.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 15, 2020, 09:15:55 PM


But it is funny coming from you, constantly questioning at what cost we kill the economy to save a life.

Nm
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Keithtisbarf on May 16, 2020, 01:00:45 AM
I’ll ask my ground keeper source what they know and get back to you all. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 17, 2020, 02:45:00 PM
Snell’s comments are even more understandable with the safety outline the MLB has. Take a paycut to essentially stay in your house or at the ballpark for 4 straight months to play a modified version of your sport? Thanks but no thanks. If I was a player and you pay me what I signed to I’ll hold up my end of the bargain but there’s no chance I’m taking a paycut for the garbage laid out by the MLB.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Keithtisbarf on May 17, 2020, 11:33:30 PM
The MLB? lol. If a player is truly concerned about “the covid” they should forfeit their pay for season and just not play. I was told by my friend who know a groundkeeper in management that is an option.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 18, 2020, 12:15:38 AM
Snell’s comments are even more understandable with the safety outline the MLB has. Take a paycut to essentially stay in your house or at the ballpark for 4 straight months to play a modified version of your sport? Thanks but no thanks. If I was a player and you pay me what I signed to I’ll hold up my end of the bargain but there’s no chance I’m taking a paycut for the garbage laid out by the MLB.

Some more of Snell's comments...  Just for reference.  It seems his opinion has changed a bit.

“I think the media kind of hypes up the coronavirus,” Snell said. "If they want to look out for our health, that’s cool.

“But I’m not too worried about it. If I get it, I get it. If I don’t, I don’t. Either way it was meant to be.”


https://www.tampabay.com/sports/rays/2020/03/11/rays-blake-snell-says-coronavirus-is-overhyped-if-i-get-it-i-get-it/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: #UnleashDiener on May 18, 2020, 04:47:10 AM
Snell has a 5 year 50 million dollar contract. Meanwhile I have employees making 13 dollars an hour in direct service of covid patients. He's a bit out of touch
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 18, 2020, 07:21:25 AM
The MLB? lol. If a player is truly concerned about “the covid” they should forfeit their pay for season and just not play. I was told by my friend who know a groundkeeper in management that is an option.

Is Snell suggesting that he should sit out the year AND get paid?  If so, that’s ridiculous.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: dgies9156 on May 18, 2020, 09:04:11 AM
I'm on the players' side regarding how they should get paid. Don't pay them for the games that aren't played, of course, but they should get every dime they're owed for the games that are played.
But public statements how "I gots to get paid" and "I'm putting my life at risk" are idiotic and drain away what public support you have as players.
Doctors, nurses, grocery store workers, meat plant workers, construction workers, etc., are putting their lives at risk. A 27-year-old athlete playing baseball in a highly controlled environment surrounded by top-level medical care is not putting his life at risk.

I see it very simple.

Major League Baseball and the Major League Baseball Players Association signed a contract. The contract calls for the owners to pay the players based on certain conditions. The players accepted the contract and agreed to be paid for the work they did.

If the owners don't like it, you can ask the players to reopen negotiations. But if the players say "no," you have a contract and you have to live by it.

Period, end of discussion.

If you don't like the contract, negotiate a new one next time the contract comes due. But honor your obligations in the meantime.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 19, 2020, 07:36:18 PM
Snell refusin' work? Now da mofo is disqualified from collectin' unemployment plus $600/week. Watt an idiot, hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 19, 2020, 08:51:54 PM
Snell has a 5 year 50 million dollar contract. Meanwhile I have employees making 13 dollars an hour in direct service of covid patients. He's a bit out of touch

Ya think?

I generally support the players, don’t think they’re overpaid, hate it when the owners cry poor, etc. - but I have zero empathy/sympathy for Snell’s “problems” given the state of our world today.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 19, 2020, 10:54:33 PM
Ya think?

I generally support the players, don’t think they’re overpaid, hate it when the owners cry poor, etc. - but I have zero empathy/sympathy for Snell’s “problems” given the state of our world today.

Read his comments, which a number of stars have come out and supported. He never claimed to have any “problems.”
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: #UnleashDiener on May 20, 2020, 08:13:01 AM
Read his comments, which a number of stars have come out and supported. He never claimed to have any “problems.”

I'm very glad that someone as down on their luck as Snell is has someone like you to support him in his fight against those evil billionaires! God, how can a man live without a 2nd vacation home?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 20, 2020, 08:17:42 AM
I'm very glad that someone as down on their luck as Snell is has someone like you to support him in his fight against those evil billionaires! God, how can a man live without a 2nd vacation home?

Again, read his comments.  That’s not his point.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 20, 2020, 08:41:10 AM
I'm very glad that someone as down on their luck as Snell is has someone like you to support him in his fight against those evil billionaires! God, how can a man live without a 2nd vacation home?


Sure it can be argued that baseball players make more money than they should.  But I don't understand why he should be criticized because he doesn't want to work for less money given the circumstances. 

And I agree with wades that it is odd that people are coming down on him for not wanting to play for less, instead of the owners who after years of escalating franchise values spurred a great deal by taxpayer subsidies for their stadiums, have gotten much more wealthy than the players.

And Snell owes nothing to the fans.  I've seen that line a lot and it just isn't true.  He's a guy doing his job.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 20, 2020, 11:49:00 AM
More wisdom sprewin' from the mouths of pampered, spoiled, and entitled athletes. I get it. They have extraordinary athletic ability, BFD. In today's world of pain and sufferin', no one wants to listen to an athlete spout off on the fact he has to pay taxes on income, get full pay for half a schedule of work, and is putting his life on the line when going back to work. Oh, and btw, Blake Snell is a certifiable idiot, aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on May 20, 2020, 04:05:48 PM
More wisdom sprewin' from the mouths of pampered, spoiled, and entitled athletes. I get it. They have extraordinary athletic ability, BFD. In today's world of pain and sufferin', no one wants to listen to an athlete spout off on the fact he has to pay taxes on income, get full pay for half a schedule of work, and is putting his life on the line when going back to work. Oh, and btw, David Snell is a certifiable idiot, aina?

I usually stick up for the athletes, but I have to agree with pretty much all of this, Doc.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on May 20, 2020, 04:14:25 PM
More wisdom sprewin' from the mouths of pampered, spoiled, and entitled athletes. I get it. They have extraordinary athletic ability, BFD. In today's world of pain and sufferin', no one wants to listen to an athlete spout off on the fact he has to pay taxes on income, get full pay for half a schedule of work, and is putting his life on the line when going back to work. Oh, and btw, David Snell is a certifiable idiot, aina?

What athlete has demanded full pay for half a season?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Keithtisbarf on May 20, 2020, 09:47:23 PM
What athlete has demanded full pay for half a season?

Snell?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 21, 2020, 04:23:26 AM
Blake Snell aka moron, hey?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NHJ_FPsrmxs
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 21, 2020, 07:47:04 AM
So it starts with Boomer comparing baseball players to "essential workers."  No offense but that's a stupid comparison.  "Essential workers" have become the new "the troops."  We are going to praise them endlessly, hold them up as an impossible-to-meet standard to bash down others, but in the end we aren't going to pay or provide for them like we should because...well...that's expensive and hard.

Anyway, Snell can do what he wants.  It may be tone deaf, but if he doesn't want to play for what he would make, that's his right.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 21, 2020, 08:53:29 AM
Blake Snell aka moron, hey?


Half price werk on da toofers till the plague passes, doc?

Yes, Snell comes off as tonedeaf.  But at the end of the day he's saying this - https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/29201581/lee-westwood-cites-quarantine-issues-travel-us-pga-tour-events (https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/29201581/lee-westwood-cites-quarantine-issues-travel-us-pga-tour-events).

And yet no one is jumping out of their shoes to try to score easy PR points to feel better about themselves and dunk on Lee Westwood.  I've already seen Tom Glavine and Bryce Harper come out in general support of Snell's comments, and I'm sure there's more.  And using essential workers to slam Snell in service of MLB owners' profit position is manipulative and disrespectiful of essential workers and misguided. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 21, 2020, 09:03:05 AM
Blake Snell aka moron, hey?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NHJ_FPsrmxs

Boomer & Gio - That's my morning show listen.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
Half price werk on da toofers till the plague passes, doc?

Yes, Snell comes off as tonedeaf.  But at the end of the day he's saying this - https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/29201581/lee-westwood-cites-quarantine-issues-travel-us-pga-tour-events (https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/29201581/lee-westwood-cites-quarantine-issues-travel-us-pga-tour-events).


“At the end of the day?” LOL.

I’ve read what Snell said about “the ‘rona” and “gettin’ his”.

Westwood’s remarks were well reasoned, mature and thoughtful. Snell’s were self centered and childish. Not the same at the end of any day.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 21, 2020, 10:04:36 AM
“At the end of the day?” LOL.

I’ve read what Snell said about “the ‘rona” and “gettin’ his”.

Westwood’s remarks were well reasoned, mature and thoughtful. Snell’s were self centered and childish. Not the same at the end of any day.


They had the same essential meaning.  How is this statement not self-centered?

"Right now, I won't be playing them," Westwood said in the interview. "Not with having to leave here two weeks before, quarantine, then play the two tournaments, then come back here and quarantine again. It's six weeks for two tournaments, and to me, that's just not worth it.

"And it's not worth taking the risk if everybody thinks that those kind of precautions have got to be in place. I don't feel like golf's a priority if it's that severe.''

And IMO I am OK with both of them being self-centered if they want to be.  But just because someone uses language in a different manner doesn't mean they are meaning something different.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 21, 2020, 10:17:45 AM
Westwood’s remarks were well reasoned, mature and thoughtful. Snell’s were self centered and childish. Not the same at the end of any day.

Agree to disagree.  I'm not going to change anyone's mind on this, but I feel pretty strongly this is more about people's position on who gets to say these things vs what was actually said. 

Snell and Westwood both said that given the health risks from covid, they won't participate in their sport for what they deem to be meager compensation vs their standard comp. 

Snell's comments are less articulate becuase he's 27 and was talking while playing video games. He's also angrier becaues his career earnings to date are $6M while being a cy young candidate, and he was to double those earnings with his 2020 salary alone due to his contract extension - a salary which the owners now want to reduce below the pro-ration for only playing part of the season.  If he sits this year out, he's putting his money where his mouth is more than just about anyone that's spoken out on this so far.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2020, 11:37:50 AM

They had the same essential meaning.  How is this statement not self-centered?

"Right now, I won't be playing them," Westwood said in the interview. "Not with having to leave here two weeks before, quarantine, then play the two tournaments, then come back here and quarantine again. It's six weeks for two tournaments, and to me, that's just not worth it.

"And it's not worth taking the risk if everybody thinks that those kind of precautions have got to be in place. I don't feel like golf's a priority if it's that severe.''

And IMO I am OK with both of them being self-centered if they want to be.  But just because someone uses language in a different manner doesn't mean they are meaning something different.

Fluff

If Snell had to fly to England on his own dime, quarantine without playing (or being paid) for two weeks, play baseball for two weeks (and be paid only if he performs well) and then fly home on his own dime, quarantine and not play for two weeks (or be paid) - then I would agree that their circumstances were close to the same. I just don’t see it that way.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 21, 2020, 12:53:48 PM
Is being 27 an excuse for being inarticulate? Seems pretty old for that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Hards_Alumni on May 21, 2020, 01:00:27 PM
Is being 27 an excuse for being inarticulate? Seems pretty old for that.

I know plenty of people over 27 that are inarticulate.  Tying it to age does seem a bit silly.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 21, 2020, 02:27:10 PM
Is being 27 an excuse for being inarticulate? Seems pretty old for that.

Maybe not an excuse, but its representative of the broader problem of judging labor disputes by how guys say things rather than the substance of what they say.  Snell, like a ton of MLBers, is a twenty-something that never went to college. When confronted with a pay cut on the heels of his first major pay day, he's not going to state his position as clearly as an owner or the league's PR machine will.  Or if he does, some of the other hundreds of guys just like him won't.  It doesn't undermine his or the players' position, or mean they are somehow more out of touch than the owners on the other side of the negotating table, its just a reality of trying to run PR for hundreds of young guys some of whom haven't had backgrounds that lend to giving great sound bites.  If we don't judge this stuff on a bit of a curve, the players will lose every time.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 21, 2020, 07:51:05 PM
“At the end of the day?” LOL.

I’ve read what Snell said about “the ‘rona” and “gettin’ his”.

Westwood’s remarks were well reasoned, mature and thoughtful. Snell’s were self centered and childish. Not the same at the end of any day.

Let me guess.  When the leader of our country comes out and says stupid garbage you're someone who says, "Don't worry about what he's saying.  He doesn't mean it literally."
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 21, 2020, 08:08:06 PM
Is being 27 an excuse for being inarticulate? Seems pretty old for that.


Knot ann excuse, just factually speekin', da moron iz  simply an idiot, aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2020, 08:26:38 PM
Let me guess.  When the leader of our country comes out and says stupid garbage you're someone who says, "Don't worry about what he's saying.  He doesn't mean it literally."

Wrong guess. When he says stupid garbage (which is pretty frequently) I call him out for saying stupid garbage. And when he says things sarcastically I take them as such. It’s easy if you have an open mind and an ability to discern.

I don’t even have to guess about you. The way you frame your post it’s clear you take everything he says literally. That’s unfortunate, but not surprising. Blind hatred eliminates any possibility for good judgement.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 21, 2020, 09:16:27 PM
Wrong guess. When he says stupid garbage (which is pretty frequently) I call him out for saying stupid garbage. And when he says things sarcastically I take them as such. It’s easy if you have an open mind and an ability to discern.

I don’t even have to guess about you. The way you frame your post it’s clear you take everything he says literally. That’s unfortunate, but not surprising. Blind hatred eliminates any possibility for good judgement.

Let me guess. Him taking hydroxychloriquine is sarcasm?  Miracle disappearance of a deadly virus is sarcasm? 0 cases by April is sarcasm? Country opened up by Easter is sarcasm? All of this followed by him calling this a pandemic before it was labeled a pandemic...sarcasm too? Everyone who wants a test can have a test...sarcasm?

No blind hatred. Just calling a terrible “leader” what he is.

Snell’s comments are so tone deaf that the rest of baseball really seems thrilled and anxious to jump all in on the proposal the owners put through.  Snell vs. the world.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 21, 2020, 11:44:25 PM
Ewe fourgot won, Fol. Oh, and you can keep your own doctor, aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 22, 2020, 07:06:15 AM
Let me guess. Him taking hydroxychloriquine is sarcasm?  Miracle disappearance of a deadly virus is sarcasm? 0 cases by April is sarcasm? Country opened up by Easter is sarcasm? All of this followed by him calling this a pandemic before it was labeled a pandemic...sarcasm too? Everyone who wants a test can have a test...sarcasm?



You’re a very bad guesser. I suggest you stay away from bookies and Vegas.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 26, 2020, 11:10:55 AM
Meant to post this over the weekend - long article from Passan about the status of the labor discussions: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29207203/the-clock-ticking-2020-mlb-season-talks-here-make-deal-work-fall-apart (https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29207203/the-clock-ticking-2020-mlb-season-talks-here-make-deal-work-fall-apart)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 26, 2020, 08:38:48 PM
If I’m a player I’m voting a hard no on this.

https://twitter.com/danwolken/status/1265444554200809479?s=21

If I’m a star player and this passes, I’m not playing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 26, 2020, 08:49:34 PM
If I’m a player I’m voting a hard no on this.

https://twitter.com/danwolken/status/1265444554200809479?s=21

If I’m a star player and this passes, I’m not playing.

Yeah no kidding. The original plan was bad enough. This just got worse.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on May 26, 2020, 09:24:43 PM
The upcoming MLB draft has real potential to be a complete $hitshow. If you’re on the fence if whether or not the team you root for is in financial trouble, just watch what they do at the draft. I firmly believe there will be multiple teams that have no intention of signing their picks. And this is only a five round draft.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on May 27, 2020, 11:32:04 AM
If I’m a player I’m voting a hard no on this.

https://twitter.com/danwolken/status/1265444554200809479?s=21 (https://twitter.com/danwolken/status/1265444554200809479?s=21)

If I’m a star player and this passes, I’m not playing.

What can the owners do?

Attanasio paints a grim financial picture in today's paper:

“The industry has approximately $9.4 billion in revenue, so for a round number let's say it's $10 billion,” Attanasio said. “If we only play half a season, that revenue is only $5 billion. And 40% of that revenue is live-gate-related so if you play without fans, you take away $2 billion and now you're down to $3 billion. The exact number that's been calculated by the league office if we play 81 games without fans is $2.85 billion dollars.

 “In a sport that has $10 billion in revenue, we have very little cash flow on an aggregate basis – $300 million or less. Of the $10 billion, half goes to the players and the other half goes to staging the games. Whether it's the folks who work for teams, the travel, anything that goes into running an organization or staging a game.

The players, who normally earn $5 billion a year in aggregate will earn half of that. So, if they get their normal rate of pay, that's $2.5 billion. But we just described that we'll earn just under $3 billion if we played this year with fans so that's almost 90% of revenues going to pay the players, who are only getting half of what their contract said they should have gotten.”
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 27, 2020, 11:38:23 AM
I don't really weep for owners who have no problem pocketing all of the upside benefits of being an owner, but then are asking their employees to participate in the downside. 

They may just have to operate <gasp> at a loss!!! 

Or, in exchange for players taking a cut  this season, pay them back their pro-rata share over the next five seasons - with interest.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 27, 2020, 12:30:19 PM
The upcoming MLB draft has real potential to be a complete $hitshow. If you’re on the fence if whether or not the team you root for is in financial trouble, just watch what they do at the draft. I firmly believe there will be multiple teams that have no intention of signing their picks. And this is only a five round draft.

Could be wrong on this, but I believe that I read that the bonuses for this years drafts will basically be deferred payments over the next 2 years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on May 27, 2020, 02:36:10 PM
I don't really weep for owners who have no problem pocketing all of the upside benefits of being an owner, but then are asking their employees to participate in the downside. 

They may just have to operate <gasp> at a loss!!! 

Or, in exchange for players taking a cut  this season, pay them back their pro-rata share over the next five seasons - with interest.

Worst of all, they are asking big contract players to fund guys at the lower end of the spectrum. For example, their offer means Mike Trout would only make about $5.7 mil of his $34 million contract for half a season.

Add in the salary cap in their offer and the players are really getting screwed.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BrewCity83 on May 27, 2020, 04:51:25 PM
If there's going to be a 2020 season, the owners are probably going to have to operate at a loss for this season and the players are probably going to have to agree to play for *gasp* less than half of their normal salaries.  There's a lot of posturing going on right now, but I suspect they'll get it hammered out within the next week or so.  There's too much money at stake.  Everybody's going to "lose money", but why would a guy like Trout not play for an amount like $7 million?  Would he rather sit home and get nothing?  I wouldn't.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on May 27, 2020, 06:10:22 PM
If there's going to be a 2020 season, the owners are probably going to have to operate at a loss for this season and the players are probably going to have to agree to play for *gasp* less than half of their normal salaries.  There's a lot of posturing going on right now, but I suspect they'll get it hammered out within the next week or so.  There's too much money at stake.  Everybody's going to "lose money", but why would a guy like Trout not play for an amount like $7 million?  Would he rather sit home and get nothing?  I wouldn't.

Owners refused to share a percentage of their massive profits over the last 20 years. Now they face one year of losing money and expect players to share the burden

On top of that, they are looking to use covid as a way to institute a salary cap.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 27, 2020, 07:29:52 PM
Owners refused to share a percentage of their massive profits over the last 20 years. Now they face one year of losing money and expect players to share the burden

This doesn't seem accurate to me.  Player salaries have continued to rise, there are a dozen guys that would have made over 30 million this season, 47 over 20 million and about 100 at 15 million.  They don't split revenue, but the players have never wanted that. 

The owners offers haven't seemed great, but if you're in a contract negotiation and the opposing side accepts your first offer, you did something terribly wrong.  As ManeCity said, both sides are going to have to take a hit here, just like the rest of the country.  The owners are probably going to lose some money, or at least not make much at all.  The players are going to have to give a little and see that the situation has changed since March.  If there isn't a season, because the sides couldn't get together on the money side, I think it could be catastrophic for the game.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: #UnleashDiener on May 28, 2020, 04:24:13 AM
In a world where people making 80k have had salaries cut by as much as 30%, it's pretty hard to have my heart bleed for a millionaire playing baseball.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on May 28, 2020, 05:57:21 AM
In a world where people making 80k have had salaries cut by as much as 30%, it's pretty hard to have my heart bleed for a millionaire playing baseball.

And the billionaire owners trying to cut salaries further for more profit?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: #UnleashDiener on May 28, 2020, 06:34:25 AM
And the billionaire owners trying to cut salaries further for more profit?

In today's world, I have no sympathy for billionaires fighting with millionaires.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on May 28, 2020, 06:47:59 AM
At this point, how many people even would miss baseball this year?

That's what both sides need to be worried about. Folks have a lot of other problems than "will there be baseball" right now. And if basketball and football start back up, baseball will only have been missed by its hard-core fans.

As UJ said, most Americans have very little sympathy for either side, nor should they.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 28, 2020, 07:51:18 AM
I will miss having baseball games on in the summer evenings in the summer.  But I missed the NCAA tournament, the "normal" NHL and NBA playoffs, etc.  It would just be another on my list.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 28, 2020, 08:07:22 AM
Scherzer tone deaf.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 28, 2020, 08:25:41 AM
Maybe.  But I agree with him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 28, 2020, 08:33:40 AM
Maybe.  But I agree with him.

Agreed. Just getting out ahead of it for those who think the millionaires are selfish while the billionaires continue to become more wealthy and can’t take a hit without the millionaires also taking a hit.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GrimmReaper33 on May 28, 2020, 08:43:25 AM
In today's world, I have no sympathy for billionaires fighting with millionaires.

Yep, this.  I'm always pro player in these negotiations/situations, but both sides are looking completely awful in this situation. 

Especially when it's guys like Scherzer complaining the loudest.  Oh, so you're only going to make $8 million this year for 82 games instead of $30 million (or whatever his actual numbers are)
 Meanwhile, there are millions out of work who usually don't even make $40k a year just desperate to get back to work so they can get a steady paycheck coming in. 

I feel bad for the guys who are on the fringe, the AAAA type players, hoping this is the year they stick or get their shot in the bigs because rosters are going to be expanded.  I'm sure they feel awful for Scherzer..   ::)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on May 28, 2020, 08:46:00 AM
Agreed. Just getting out ahead of it for those who think the millionaires are selfish while the billionaires continue to become more wealthy and can’t take a hit without the millionaires also taking a hit.

You keep beating this drum, while literally no one has taken this stance.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on May 28, 2020, 09:15:42 AM
Scherzer tone deaf.

An interesting thread about his comments.

https://twitter.com/eugenefreedman/status/1265978165798866949?s=21
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on May 28, 2020, 09:49:36 AM
The way guys like Scherzer speak out sets the tone for the lower paid players under him. Similarly, the way that the most powerful and public labor organizations like the MLBPA exert their power sets the tone for how other unions and labor organizations are viewed in this country.  This constant boiling down of everything to absolute wealth is depressingly reductive, and no one does anyone making less than them a favor by rolling over becaause they "don't need the money."

You want emergency pay for essential workers? Geez, if only they had some sort of collective whereby they could pool their marginal influence on their employers to exert greater wage pressure than they can exert individually. But there is a suppressive effect to us all looking at successful examples of that and then saying "well they are successful and their constitutents make money, so screw em when their employers try to renegotiate contracts that are less than three months old."  If grocery store workers had a union and went on strike for emergency pay, I like to think we wouldn't all be saying "I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for grocery store workers who are still getting paid while other industries are laid off entirely."  These things need to be judged by the power dynamics and contractual realities, not by an arbitrary determination of when the absolute dollars are sufficient to just be mad at everybody. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on May 28, 2020, 10:03:37 AM
The way guys like Scherzer speak out sets the tone for the lower paid players under him. Similarly, the way that the most powerful and public labor organizations like the MLBPA exert their power sets the tone for how other unions and labor organizations are viewed in this country.  This constant boiling down of everything to absolute wealth is depressingly reductive, and no one does anyone making less than them a favor by rolling over becaause they "don't need the money."

You want emergency pay for essential workers? Geez, if only they had some sort of collective whereby they could pool their marginal influence on their employers to exert greater wage pressure than they can exert individually. But there is a suppressive effect to us all looking at successful examples of that and then saying "well they are successful and their constitutents make money, so screw em when their employers try to renegotiate contracts that are less than three months old."  If grocery store workers had a union and went on strike for emergency pay, I like to think we wouldn't all be saying "I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for grocery store workers who are still getting paid while other industries are laid off entirely."  These things need to be judged by the power dynamics and contractual realities, not by an arbitrary determination of when the absolute dollars are sufficient to just be mad at everybody.

I totally get what you're saying. I was a union guy for much of my career, too. But I do think there's a bit of a leap from the MLBPA to a grocery union, and I think most discerning people can make the distinction.

I also don't feel any "worse" or "better" for the players than I do for the owners; both always want more, as just about everybody does.

I do think those voicing their opinions should choose their words carefully, because most Americans have a lot more to worry about than some millionaire ballplayer feeling slighted or some billionaire owner feeling a tad less billionaire-y.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on May 28, 2020, 01:55:36 PM
Labor is labor. From a societal perspective, am I concerned with the MLB owners trying to share the costs and internalize profits? Not really. Max Scherzer and Blake Snell have multi generational wealth and will be just fine. Not so much for minor leagues and players under pre arb contracts.

I think the MLBPA and other players unions are bellwethers for the movement writ large, though, and I'd be concerned about macro shifts and new norms in labor movements.

Agree with 82 that the players have a messaging challenge, as most of us are not inclined to be sympathetic to the plight of millionaires.

Scott Boras' memo is a refreshing perspective of this challenge:

https://apnews.com/103a8516de52f487b57173992a558816 (https://apnews.com/103a8516de52f487b57173992a558816)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on May 28, 2020, 02:06:30 PM
The players have a messaging challenge I guess, but you can't really counter an argument of "they make enough money already," or "there are thousands of people who would do what they do for free."

You really can't respond to those types of comments in any meaningful way - so you basically have to ignore them.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 28, 2020, 02:23:41 PM
And the billionaire owners trying to cut salaries further for more profit?

What profits? Won’t MLB will operate (if it operates) at a loss this year whether Scherzer is paid 15 million or 8 million? From a financial standpoint isn’t the best outcome for the owners no baseball?


Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on May 28, 2020, 04:58:28 PM
In the NFL and the NBA, the league promotes its stars that is one way in which they grow their game.

MLB, on the other hand, has traditionally attacked its stars as greedy. It is now looking to blame star players for the lockout.

Rob Manfred has been terrible for the game, following the tradition of Bud Selig in helping the owners make mega-profits while refusing to promote the game.

Good for the owners and good for the game are two completely different things.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BrewCity83 on May 28, 2020, 06:17:39 PM
What profits? Won’t MLB will operate (if it operates) at a loss this year whether Scherzer is paid 15 million or 8 million? From a financial standpoint isn’t the best outcome for the owners no baseball?

For the short term, for 2020, yes.  But the owners stand to lose more in the long run if they cling to this short-sighted view.  They're probably going to have to just suck it up and take their 2020 losses for the long-term good of the sport, and recognize the fact that they make their money on the appreciation of the franchise values over time.  They could potentially suffer huge losses if the game's popularity is damaged over this fight that will make this year's losses look like popcorn sales.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on May 28, 2020, 08:36:13 PM
Scherzer tone deaf.

Yeah, but he’s not wrong.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on May 28, 2020, 09:43:34 PM
Yeah, but he’s not wrong.

Agreed.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Retire0 on May 28, 2020, 09:47:24 PM
Agreed.

MLBPA has a small battle here and a massive war ahead of them.

I don’t see how they come out on top.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on May 28, 2020, 11:21:26 PM
MLBPA has a small battle here and a massive war ahead of them.

I don’t see how they come out on top.

I think you are spot on.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 01, 2020, 11:33:44 AM
Funny stuff. Judge dismisses libel case brought by Leeny Dykstra against a book by Ron Darling, saying:

“Based on the papers submitted on this motion, prior to the publication of the book, Dykstra was infamous for being, among other things, racist, misogynist, and anti-gay, as well as a sexual predator, a drug-abuser, a thief, and an embezzler. Further, Dykstra had a reputation—largely due to his autobiography—of being willing to do anything to benefit himself and his team, including using steroids and blackmailing umpires . . . Considering this information, which was presumably known to the average reader of the book, this Court finds that, as a matter of law, the reference in the book has not exposed Dykstra to any further “public contempt, ridicule, aversion or disgrace,” or “evil opinion of him in the minds of right-thinking persons,” or “deprivation of friendly intercourse in society.”
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 01, 2020, 11:47:33 AM
Funny stuff. Judge dismisses libel case brought by Leeny Dykstra against a book by Ron Darling, saying:

“Based on the papers submitted on this motion, prior to the publication of the book, Dykstra was infamous for being, among other things, racist, misogynist, and anti-gay, as well as a sexual predator, a drug-abuser, a thief, and an embezzler. Further, Dykstra had a reputation—largely due to his autobiography—of being willing to do anything to benefit himself and his team, including using steroids and blackmailing umpires . . . Considering this information, which was presumably known to the average reader of the book, this Court finds that, as a matter of law, the reference in the book has not exposed Dykstra to any further “public contempt, ridicule, aversion or disgrace,” or “evil opinion of him in the minds of right-thinking persons,” or “deprivation of friendly intercourse in society.”

That's great stuff.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on June 02, 2020, 07:36:02 PM
Funny stuff. Judge dismisses libel case brought by Leeny Dykstra against a book by Ron Darling, saying:

“Based on the papers submitted on this motion, prior to the publication of the book, Dykstra was infamous for being, among other things, racist, misogynist, and anti-gay, as well as a sexual predator, a drug-abuser, a thief, and an embezzler. Further, Dykstra had a reputation—largely due to his autobiography—of being willing to do anything to benefit himself and his team, including using steroids and blackmailing umpires . . . Considering this information, which was presumably known to the average reader of the book, this Court finds that, as a matter of law, the reference in the book has not exposed Dykstra to any further “public contempt, ridicule, aversion or disgrace,” or “evil opinion of him in the minds of right-thinking persons,” or “deprivation of friendly intercourse in society.”

Legalese dunking is the best kind of dunking.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 10, 2020, 12:29:57 PM
So ... MLB Draft talk?

Seems like all the mocks before today has the White Soc with either Patrick Bailey or Tyler Soderstrom. Then today, seemingly everyone switched their pick to Garret Crotchet. Either somebody knows something or somebody wants everyone to think they know something.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 10, 2020, 07:33:36 PM
So ... MLB Draft talk?

Seems like all the mocks before today has the White Soc with either Patrick Bailey or Tyler Soderstrom. Then today, seemingly everyone switched their pick to Garret Crotchet. Either somebody knows something or somebody wants everyone to think they know something.

Love the Crotchet pick. Also fills a need as the Sox system could use a potential stud left hander. Hopefully he is Chris Sale, worst case Hader/Andrew Miller comp.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 10, 2020, 07:51:03 PM
Love the Crotchet pick. Also fills a need as the Sox system could use a potential stud left hander. Hopefully he is Chris Sale, worst case Hader/Andrew Miller comp.

Like the stuff a lot, a little worried about durability.

Bummed that the Cubs took Ed Howard.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WithoutBias on June 10, 2020, 07:54:19 PM
Love the Crotchet pick. Also fills a need as the Sox system could use a potential stud left hander. Hopefully he is Chris Sale, worst case Hader/Andrew Miller comp.

Being a historically dominant reliever for a couple years as a “worst case” would be pretty nice.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on June 10, 2020, 07:55:32 PM
Detroit farm system is loaded with plus arms.    Glad to see them take a bat in Torkleson.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 10, 2020, 08:48:43 PM
Being a historically dominant reliever for a couple years as a “worst case” would be pretty nice.

Sorry, I should have stated “worst case ceiling comp”. Meaning they project him as a starter, but he could wind up as a late inning reliever.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 10, 2020, 11:25:01 PM
Love the Crotchet pick. Also fills a need as the Sox system could use a potential stud left hander. Hopefully he is Chris Sale, worst case Hader/Andrew Miller comp.

There has been some speculation that the Sox will under slot Crochet and take Jared Kelley overslot tomorrow.  Which would be great.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on June 10, 2020, 11:51:20 PM
Ed Howard is such a classic Chicago athlete name. And being on the LLWS squad is just bonus. Hope he becomes a star on the Northside
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 11, 2020, 12:21:09 AM
There has been some speculation that the Sox will under slot Crochet and take Jared Kelley overslot tomorrow.  Which would be great.

I’d be thrilled with Kelley, it seems like they’d have to throw away their other 3 picks to sign him. In a 5 round draft, I don’t know if that’s great or stupid.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on June 11, 2020, 07:34:48 AM
This is a good piece about the financials.

Cards owner Bill Dewitt, who often leads many MLB owner committees, made a few curious comments this past week in a local radio interview. The comments were picked up by National baseball media. The article uses Dewitt as an example, breaks down the numbers (including his 12% annual return over 24 years.) The only thing missing in the piece is the money from the new neighborhood built around the stadium by the team.  Max Scherzer interestingly enough is a St. Louis native who came close to pitching for the Cardinals. 

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/59421/veteran-presence-thats-rich/

Dewitt was recently in the news for purchasing Eva Longoria's L.A. Villa.

https://www.latimes.com/business/real-estate/story/2020-05-11/cardinals-owner-bill-dewitt-buys-eva-longoria-hollywood-hills-villa?_amp=true
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 11, 2020, 04:41:07 PM
Wow, the Sox drafted Kelley. If they can sign him, that's some high velocity stuff coming from their top 2 picks. I like the gamble here, their offense should be very good moving forward, getting some premium young arms in the system is alright by me. Kelley is still years away, but love the upside.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 11, 2020, 05:10:08 PM
Boomshakalaka!   Love it!  Sox got two top 20 talent pitchers with TOR stuff.  Plenty of risk on both, but gotta love it.  I like Shirley more than Hostetler already.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: tower912 on June 11, 2020, 05:40:39 PM
Detroit drafted a candidate for the all-name team.    Dillon Dingler.     Catcher out of Ohio St.    I really want him to make the majors because I really want to hear the announcers say his name.   
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 11, 2020, 05:51:45 PM
Detroit drafted a candidate for the all-name team.    Dillon Dingler.     Catcher out of Ohio St.    I really want him to make the majors because I really want to hear the announcers say his name.   

Didnt Marky Mark play him once?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 11, 2020, 08:52:37 PM
Boomshakalaka!   Love it!  Sox got two top 20 talent pitchers with TOR stuff.  Plenty of risk on both, but gotta love it.  I like Shirley more than Hostetler already.

Fingers crossed that both sign.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 11, 2020, 09:31:25 PM
Fingers crossed that both sign.

Seems that the way the Sox punted on rounds 3-5 is a sign that they have a deal, or the makings of a deal.
At least the optimist in me thinks so.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 11, 2020, 09:46:24 PM
Seems that the way the Sox punted on rounds 3-5 is a sign that they have a deal, or the makings of a deal.
At least the optimist in me thinks so.

The rumor is they already have a deal with Kelley. Crotchet may end up being the more difficult signing.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 11, 2020, 10:02:50 PM
I hope baseball comes back in time for these new players' 30th birthdays!
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 11, 2020, 10:04:33 PM
The rumor is they already have a deal with Kelley. Crotchet may end up being the more difficult signing.

Could be, but unless the Sox are trying to way underslot him, that would be a HUGE gamble by him. The track record for 1st round pitchers who don’t sign is bad.
Worst case, Sox get the #12 pick next year. I like Crotchet's upside, but he's not a generational talent. I imagine they'd get a similar talent at 12 in 2021.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 11, 2020, 11:19:23 PM
The rumor is they already have a deal with Kelley. Crotchet may end up being the more difficult signing.

I'd guess they had a pretty specific idea what it would take to sign both before they selected either.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 11, 2020, 11:28:20 PM
I'd guess they had a pretty specific idea what it would take to sign both before they selected either.

Yeah, I don’t think they blindly gambled here. I’m excited, this hasn’t been the Sox draft philosophy of recent years. I think they assume they won’t be drafting around the top 10 again for awhile hopefully, and they honed in on two guys with high upside.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on June 13, 2020, 11:02:26 AM
I'm not going to pretend to know more than the scouts, because i only really know what articles tell me about the MLB draft after the fact.  But it seems kinda insane that Clayton Beeter fell to the Dodgers at 66.  Everything I read says he had the best stuff in the draft, and an elite curveball - I had seen him mentioned with teams in the middle of the first round pre-draft. 

I know he has a tommy john under his belt already, and I guess teams were worried he might not be able to log starters innings.  But who cares? The way baseball is going, if his stuff is that good, no one goes 7 IP anymore anyway.  Such a huge part of the Dodgers success has been prioritizing quality, and getting their quanitity from the number of arms rather than how deep into games those arms can go.  Guys like Beeter are just going to continue to build that out.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 13, 2020, 11:53:09 AM
I'm not going to pretend to know more than the scouts, because i only really know what articles tell me about the MLB draft after the fact.  But it seems kinda insane that Clayton Beeter fell to the Dodgers at 66.  Everything I read says he had the best stuff in the draft, and an elite curveball - I had seen him mentioned with teams in the middle of the first round pre-draft. 

I know he has a tommy john under his belt already, and I guess teams were worried he might not be able to log starters innings.  But who cares? The way baseball is going, if his stuff is that good, no one goes 7 IP anymore anyway.  Such a huge part of the Dodgers success has been prioritizing quality, and getting their quanitity from the number of arms rather than how deep into games those arms can go.  Guys like Beeter are just going to continue to build that out.

He was a bit all over in mock drafts, I think not only because of the TJ, which you mentioned, but also because he had only thrown something like 40 innings in college.  Great stuff, but just not too much of a track record.  Which adds risk, which moves him down.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Dodgers completely benefit.  They seem to be one of those organizations that always scouts and drafts well.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 13, 2020, 03:26:54 PM
But they can't afford to players, much less minor leaguers.

@AndrewMarchand: BREAKING: MLB and Turner Sports have agreed to a new billion dollar deal for the network to continue broadcasting an LCS and the playoffs, The Post has learned.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/13/mlb-lands-billion-dollar-deal-with-turner-sports-to-broadcast-playoffs/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 13, 2020, 03:45:01 PM
Blake Snell is so selfish.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 13, 2020, 03:54:53 PM
Blake Snell is so selfish.

No, just incapable of keeping his foot out of his mouth.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 13, 2020, 03:59:53 PM
No, just incapable of keeping his foot out of his mouth.

Maybe he just knows he’s helping to make incredibly wealthy people even more wealthy and he doesn’t like being penny pinched by them to basically put aside his entire life during a global pandemic just to entertain people.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 13, 2020, 04:44:04 PM
Maybe he just knows he’s helping to make incredibly wealthy people even more wealthy and he doesn’t like being penny pinched by them to basically put aside his entire life during a global pandemic just to entertain people.

With all due respect , playing baseball to entertain people is his job. For which he is very well compensated.  I'm all for the players getting every penny they're contractually owed, but putting aside his entire life? Please. He's not a video gamer who sacrifices his spare time to entertain us on the baseball field.  It's his job. By choice. Nobody should feel sorry for him.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 13, 2020, 05:53:22 PM
With all due respect , playing baseball to entertain people is his job. For which he is very well compensated.  I'm all for the players getting every penny they're contractually owed, but putting aside his entire life? Please. He's not a video gamer who sacrifices his spare time to entertain us on the baseball field.  It's his job. By choice. Nobody should feel sorry for him.

Did you see the guidelines the MLB has? Heck even the NBA for that matter. They didn’t sign up to risk getting covid while literally locking themselves in a hotel room for 3 straight months and play in front of nobody because it’s not even safe for people to sit in stands, let alone sweat all over each other on a field/court of competition.

If I had a few million dollars in my bank account and my options were get paid less than what I signed up for to live as stated above or skip getting paid for a year I’d definitely at least consider the second option.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 13, 2020, 07:04:06 PM
Did you see the guidelines the MLB has? Heck even the NBA for that matter. They didn’t sign up to risk getting covid while literally locking themselves in a hotel room for 3 straight months and play in front of nobody because it’s not even safe for people to sit in stands, let alone sweat all over each other on a field/court of competition.

If I had a few million dollars in my bank account and my options were get paid less than what I signed up for to live as stated above or skip getting paid for a year I’d definitely at least consider the second option.

I have seen the guidelines. Players will be much safer playing baseball than they will going to the grocery store or have family over for a birthday celebration.

Here's the thing ... nobody is making anyone play. If Blake Snell or any other player truly believes they're risking their lives by playing, they're free to sit out.
But that's not happening here. If they really believed this was a life-or-death risk, they'd all refuse to play. I would, too. But I can't think of a single player who's said that. Certainly not Snell. They're not worried about their health. They're worried about getting paid. And they're worried about setting a precedent that could lead to a cap.

I'm all for the players getting paid. I'm against either side lying about their motivations.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 13, 2020, 07:11:27 PM
I have seen the guidelines. Players will be much safer playing baseball than they will going to the grocery store or have family over for a birthday celebration.

Here's the thing ... nobody is making anyone play. If Blake Snell or any other player truly believes they're risking their lives by playing, they're free to sit out.
But that's not happening here. If they really believed this was a life-or-death risk, they'd all refuse to play. I would, too. But I can't think of a single player who's said that. Certainly not Snell. They're not worried about their health. They're worried about getting paid. And they're worried about setting a precedent that could lead to a cap.

I'm all for the players getting paid. I'm against either side lying about their motivations.

That’s all he said. That he’ll sit out if he isn’t getting paid what he signed to play for. Which he has every right to do.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 13, 2020, 09:14:00 PM
Top of the 5th, nobody on, nobody out. Line score:

Pakuni    5  6  0
Wades    0  0  2
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 13, 2020, 09:19:22 PM
Top of the 5th, nobody on, nobody out. Line score:

Pakuni    5  6  0
Wades    0  0  2

I’d be worried if Lenny had me winning something. Glad to know I’m right where I should be.

What really matters is what the players think. And given that they continue to reject proposals with no counter offers, it appears the players see Snell as correct.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 13, 2020, 09:31:02 PM
The players told MLB today that they will play a season for as long as the owners wish but will not agree to less than prorated salary or expanded post season.

Seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 13, 2020, 09:49:16 PM
I’d be worried if Lenny had me winning something. Glad to know I’m right where I should be.


As Brian Wilson once wrote, “Don’t Worry, Baby”.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 13, 2020, 09:49:47 PM
The players told MLB today that they will play a season for as long as the owners wish but will not agree to less than prorated salary or expanded post season.

Seems reasonable to me.

Agreed.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on June 13, 2020, 10:06:30 PM
https://twitter.com/DanielDescalso/status/1271647651285487616?s=19
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 13, 2020, 10:07:56 PM
https://twitter.com/DanielDescalso/status/1271647651285487616?s=19

Yup.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 13, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
The players told MLB today that they will play a season for as long as the owners wish but will not agree to less than prorated salary or expanded post season.

Seems reasonable to me.

Not really.  They are taking the top 2 things that are important to the owners off the table.  If what they are looking for is a crapty 50 game season that just makes everyone mad, this is how to get it.  Both sides have been completely stupid about this.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 13, 2020, 10:56:04 PM
Not really.  They are taking the top 2 things that are important to the owners off the table.  If what they are looking for is a crapty 50 game season that just makes everyone mad, this is how to get it.  Both sides have been completely stupid about this.

I love baseball, I miss baseball. But if my choice is no baseball or a 50 game season, it’s not even close. No baseball (as bad as that would be) wins in a walk.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 13, 2020, 10:59:31 PM
I love baseball, I miss baseball. But if my choice is no baseball or a 50 game season, it%u2019s not even close. No baseball (as bad as that would be) wins in a walk.

Yes, I agree of course, I meant that the deal will make both the MLBPA and the owners mad.

Oh and by the way, the MLBPA already gave the owners the ability to set the number of games.  Which the owners will make as few as possible so they pay less in salary.  The players don't "win" anything in that scenario.  They still only get their 6 donuts.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 13, 2020, 11:02:54 PM
In 6 weeks, the NBA and NHL will be going and the NFL will be starting training camp. Baseball will be forgotten. That's what all of them (especially the owners) should be worried about.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 13, 2020, 11:04:36 PM
In 6 weeks, the NBA and NHL will be going and the NFL will be starting training camp. Baseball will be forgotten. That's what all of them (especially the owners) should be worried about.

Yeah.  They are fighting over dollars now, and could all lose fortunes because of it.  It is idiotic.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 13, 2020, 11:16:35 PM
Yeah.  They are fighting over dollars now, and could all lose fortunes because of it.  It is idiotic.

Both sides are willing to sacrifice this season to win the next CBA.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 13, 2020, 11:28:09 PM
Both sides are willing to sacrifice this season to win the next CBA.

Good point, Pak.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 14, 2020, 12:44:28 AM
Not really.  They are taking the top 2 things that are important to the owners off the table.  If what they are looking for is a crapty 50 game season that just makes everyone mad, this is how to get it.  Both sides have been completely stupid about this.

Nope. Players have no obligation to take a per game cut. And they shouldn’t. Why should they play for less than that?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 14, 2020, 04:32:23 AM
Don't give a chit 'bout boat deez entitled groups. Got bigga fish ta fry and baseball/sports is a small capillary feedin' da entire ocean, hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 14, 2020, 09:39:09 AM
Don't give a chit 'bout boat deez entitled groups. Got bigga fish ta fry and baseball/sports is a small capillary feedin' da entire ocean, hey?

+1, Doc. No good guys vs bad guys. Just good old greedy self interest vs greedy self interest. People who can’t see that are blind partisans and/or fools.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 14, 2020, 09:58:07 AM
Nope. Players have no obligation to take a per game cut. And they shouldn’t. Why should they play for less than that?

They have no obligation, correct.  But MLB has the power to implement a season of however many games they want, I believe as long as it is at least 50 games.  The players have said that 30% of their salaries is not enough and they don't want that and won't negotiate on a per game pay cut.  That will result in a 50 game season and players making 30% of their salaries.  It is stupid. Neitgwr side is really negotiating in good faith ( but the players have tried at least, the owners haven't at all).  With both sides essentially participating in boulwarism, nothing gets accomplished.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 14, 2020, 10:02:06 AM
They have no obligation, correct.  But MLB has the power to implement a season of however many games they want, I believe as long as it is at least 50 games.  The players have said that 30% of their salaries is not enough and they don't want that and won't negotiate on a per game pay cut.  That will result in a 50 game season and players making 30% of their salaries.  It is stupid. Neitgwr side is really negotiating in good faith ( but the players have tried at least, the owners haven't at all).  With both sides essentially participating in boulwarism, nothing gets accomplished.

I get that. I just don’t like the narratives I read suggesting the players are being greedy for not paying for less.


+1, Doc. No good guys vs bad guys. Just good old greedy self interest vs greedy self interest. People who can’t see that are blind partisans and/or fools.

Well protecting your self-interest is what negotiations are about right?  Greedy is just in the eye of the beholder.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 14, 2020, 11:34:39 AM
I get that. I just don’t like the narratives I read suggesting the players are being greedy for not paying for less.


Well protecting your self-interest is what negotiations are about right?  Greedy is just in the eye of the beholder.

True. I understand the principle. But to my set of eyes someone living paycheck to paycheck negotiating with a business owner barely turning a profit looks different than a group of millionaires/multimillionaires arguing with a group of multimillionaires/billionaires about whether the former is willing to take a salary cut to help mitigate the latter’s losses due to a pandemic. However this one comes out the players and owners will be millionaires, multimillionaires and billionaires. And the ones who get screwed will be the fans.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 15, 2020, 12:35:13 PM
nm 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 15, 2020, 01:11:15 PM
True. I understand the principle. But to my set of eyes someone living paycheck to paycheck negotiating with a business owner barely turning a profit looks different than a group of millionaires/multimillionaires arguing with a group of multimillionaires/billionaires about whether the former is willing to take a salary cut to help mitigate the latter’s losses due to a pandemic. However this one comes out the players and owners will be millionaires, multimillionaires and billionaires. And the ones who get screwed will be the fans.

This exactly. Neither players nor owners deserve any sympathy. Players are the ones fans see, follow and cheer/boo, so it's not surprising if they get the brunt of criticism.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on June 15, 2020, 01:28:01 PM
Being mad at everyone equally without digging into the nuance is implicit support for the owners.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 15, 2020, 01:57:33 PM
I don't understand why the players are hell bent on the 100% prorating of their contracts.  They would make more in 85% of 65 games than 100% of 50 games.  And more in 85% of 81 games than 100% in 65 games.  You'd think most players would be more interested in the bottom line they are making as opposed to their per game rate.  Especially when so many people have had to take a % reduction of their rates this year. 

What they are looking at right now is a 50 game season with regular playoffs.  Basically the worst possible outcome for both sides.  Nice work guys.  You negotiated a lose-lose deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on June 15, 2020, 02:04:54 PM
I don't understand why the players are hell bent on the 100% prorating of their contracts.  They would make more in 85% of 65 games than 100% of 50 games.  And more in 85% of 81 games than 100% in 65 games.  You'd think most players would be more interested in the bottom line they are making as opposed to their per game rate.  Especially when so many people have had to take a % reduction of their rates this year. 

What they are looking at right now is a 50 game season with regular playoffs.  Basically the worst possible outcome for both sides.  Nice work guys.  You negotiated a lose-lose deal.

I don’t think the owners are offering that though. All offers are the same dollar amount, just packaged differently.

There are many rich players, but based on how MLBs pre-arbitration suppresses contracts, not all are making millions. Many good young players are still at around $600k. I’d certainly be happy with that paycheck, but not everyone is making 5M a year.

That’s all after these guys didn’t make a living wage in the minors.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 15, 2020, 02:10:44 PM
I don't understand why the players are hell bent on the 100% prorating of their contracts.  They would make more in 85% of 65 games than 100% of 50 games.  And more in 85% of 81 games than 100% in 65 games.  You'd think most players would be more interested in the bottom line they are making as opposed to their per game rate.  Especially when so many people have had to take a % reduction of their rates this year. 

What they are looking at right now is a 50 game season with regular playoffs.  Basically the worst possible outcome for both sides.  Nice work guys.  You negotiated a lose-lose deal.

I was thinking the same.

cheebs09 - I think you're right but the players should counteroffer with along the lines of what you said.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 15, 2020, 02:48:24 PM
I don't understand why the players are hell bent on the 100% prorating of their contracts.  They would make more in 85% of 65 games than 100% of 50 games.  And more in 85% of 81 games than 100% in 65 games.  You'd think most players would be more interested in the bottom line they are making as opposed to their per game rate.  Especially when so many people have had to take a % reduction of their rates this year. 

What they are looking at right now is a 50 game season with regular playoffs.  Basically the worst possible outcome for both sides.  Nice work guys.  You negotiated a lose-lose deal.

It's all about the next CBA. Players aren't going to accept anything that sets the stage for any kind of revenue split, leading to imposition of a cap. They'd rather make less this year than open the door to a cap in the future.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 15, 2020, 03:21:57 PM
There's a possibility on the horizon of fans not stepping into MLB ballparks until 2023 (covid and potential players strike). Crazy to think about, but it's not an impossible scenario.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 15, 2020, 03:53:23 PM
I don’t think the owners are offering that though. All offers are the same dollar amount, just packaged differently.

There are many rich players, but based on how MLBs pre-arbitration suppresses contracts, not all are making millions. Many good young players are still at around $600k. I’d certainly be happy with that paycheck, but not everyone is making 5M a year.

That’s all after these guys didn’t make a living wage in the minors.

Yeah, and don't you think those guys specifically, would rather make more bottom line, than per game?  For a guy making 600K per season, they will make about 20K more in 65 games at 85% than in 50 games at 100%.  That seems like it would be significant for a guy just coming off minor league starvation wages. 

And you're right about if the owners are offering that.  Neither side is negotiating in good faith.  They are both being idiots trying to make some point for the next CBA, and they will drive away fans hurting themselves in the short run and the long run.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 15, 2020, 04:17:06 PM
Yeah, and don't you think those guys specifically, would rather make more bottom line, than per game?  For a guy making 600K per season, they will make about 20K more in 65 games at 85% than in 50 games at 100%.  That seems like it would be significant for a guy just coming off minor league starvation wages. 

And you're right about if the owners are offering that.  Neither side is negotiating in good faith.  They are both being idiots trying to make some point for the next CBA, and they will drive away fans hurting themselves in the short run and the long run.

The owners' last offer only guarantees 70 percent prorated salary for 72 games.
For a guy making $600K over a full season, that's about $186,000. For that same player, 50 games at 100 percent salary is $185,000.
So basically, they're asking that guy to play 22 more games for perhaps as little as $1,000.

You're right that they're both trying to make a point for the next CBA, but it's a pretty important point. It's very much against the players' long-term interest to set precedent for a revenue-sharing structure heading into labor negotiations. And sacrificing a (relatively) little money today to avoid a cap for another 4-5 years is a worthy trade-off for them.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 15, 2020, 04:38:43 PM
Love a sport as much as baseball hates itself
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on June 15, 2020, 04:52:36 PM
https://twitter.com/baueroutage/status/1272641345941721088?s=21

Bauer calls out Manfred as saying it’s a stall tactic since they could easily play 64-72 games if started planning now.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 15, 2020, 05:16:16 PM
https://twitter.com/baueroutage/status/1272641345941721088?s=21

Bauer calls out Manfred as saying it’s a stall tactic since they could easily play 64-72 games if started planning now.

AKA ... Insufferable twat calls out insufferable twat.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 15, 2020, 05:46:37 PM
Owners have determined that they will lose money this year. They also know players will demand 100% prorated salary.

Thus owners will keep Season as short as possible - 48 games.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 15, 2020, 06:20:06 PM
Not that it'll do anything, but here is a petition to remove Rob Manfred.

https://t.co/g1O5vNRvGT
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 15, 2020, 06:49:42 PM
Being mad at everyone equally without digging into the nuance is implicit support for the owners.

I’m knee deep in nuance and support neither.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 15, 2020, 06:49:56 PM
Not that it'll do anything, but here is a petition to remove Rob Manfred.

https://t.co/g1O5vNRvGT

Rob Manfred is doing exactly what the owners pay him to do.... take heat from the players and fans for ownership's decisions
.
They've finally learned to deploy the strategy NFL owners have been using successfully for years.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on June 15, 2020, 06:52:28 PM
Does anyone hate baseball as much as owners?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: JWags85 on June 15, 2020, 06:58:18 PM
Does anyone hate baseball as much as owners?

Most younger demographics
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 15, 2020, 08:10:45 PM
Most younger demographics

Worse than hate - indifference.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on June 15, 2020, 08:50:19 PM
I’m knee deep in nuance and support neither.

And that's fine, but the owners will gladly take that. Adjudicating equal fault and blame here benefits the owners. They have an ability to wait this out and be the bad guys in a way the players don't.  MLB franchise values grew at a 9.3% annual compounded rate from 1991-2000 despite a strike cancelling the 1990 season and the 1994 playoffs.  So they don't care about "what's good for the game." 

And those 30 guys plus Manfred know they can wait out the players on annual revenue too.  They know the players association can't keep the union together for very long with no pay.  Too many disparate interests (young vs old players, position players vs pitchers injury risk) and they know that stars won't let the primes of their careers go by holding out for a better deal.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BLM on June 15, 2020, 08:54:05 PM
And that's fine, but the owners will gladly take that. Adjudicating equal fault and blame here benefits the owners. They have an ability to wait this out and be the bad guys in a way the players don't.  MLB franchise values grew at a 9.3% annual compounded rate from 1991-2000 despite a strike cancelling the 1990 season and the 1994 playoffs.  So they don't care about "what's good for the game." 

And those 30 guys plus Manfred know they can wait out the players on annual revenue too.  They know the players association can't keep the union together for very long with no pay.  Too many disparate interests (young vs old players, position players vs pitchers injury risk) and they know that stars won't let the primes of their careers go by holding out for a better deal.

This guy gets it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 15, 2020, 08:57:24 PM
This guy gets it.

Everyone gets it.  The owners are crapbags.  No one has once said otherwise.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 15, 2020, 09:26:22 PM
Everyone gets it.  The owners are crapbags.  No one has once said otherwise.

Exactly.  The owners are bad. They deserve the blame here. This is not a "both sides" situation. No one here says otherwise.  That doesn't make the other side "good." The PA has shown it's not above lying either, nor do they care any more about the fans than the owners.


Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 15, 2020, 09:42:56 PM
Exactly.  The owners are bad. They deserve the blame here. This is not a "both sides" situation. No one here says otherwise.  That doesn't make the other side "good." The PA has shown it's not above lying either, nor do they care any more about the fans than the owners.

Well said.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 16, 2020, 06:48:27 AM
And that's fine, but the owners will gladly take that. Adjudicating equal fault and blame here benefits the owners. They have an ability to wait this out and be the bad guys in a way the players don't.  MLB franchise values grew at a 9.3% annual compounded rate from 1991-2000 despite a strike cancelling the 1990 season and the 1994 playoffs.  So they don't care about "what's good for the game." 

And those 30 guys plus Manfred know they can wait out the players on annual revenue too.  They know the players association can't keep the union together for very long with no pay.  Too many disparate interests (young vs old players, position players vs pitchers injury risk) and they know that stars won't let the primes of their careers go by holding out for a better deal.

The owners are greedy, stubborn and don’t give a sh!t about the fans. The players are greedy, stubborn and don’t give a sh!t about the fans. But the owners have leverage.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 16, 2020, 11:40:26 AM
I don't understand why the players are hell bent on the 100% prorating of their contracts.  They would make more in 85% of 65 games than 100% of 50 games.  And more in 85% of 81 games than 100% in 65 games.  You'd think most players would be more interested in the bottom line they are making as opposed to their per game rate.  Especially when so many people have had to take a % reduction of their rates this year. 



Because that is what the owners and players agreed on in their March deal.

Owners want to privatize any profits they receive and socialize any loses. In other words, when the owners have made huge profits over the last 15 years, they never offered a percentage to the players. Now that there will be one year with possible losses, they want the players to be full partners.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on June 16, 2020, 11:44:43 AM
The owners are greedy, stubborn and don’t give a sh!t about the fans. The players are greedy, stubborn and don’t give a sh!t about the fans. But the owners have leverage.

And that leverage is an increased willingness for there to be no baseball.  So if the fans interest is that baseball is played, I don't see how both parties are equally to blame for screwing over the fans.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 16, 2020, 11:57:59 AM
Because that is what the owners and players agreed on in their March deal.

This is where both sides really are lying.
The March deal did allow the owners to seek to reopen negotiations on financial matters if games had to be played without fans. The PA has lied about this when they claim the owners are reneging on the March deal.
At the same time, while the owners can seek to renogotiate, the players aren't obligated to do so. So the owners are full of sh-- when they say the players are acting in bad faith by declining to renegotiate the terms.
Both are exercising their rights under the deal, and both are lying about other.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on June 16, 2020, 12:24:38 PM
This is where both sides really are lying.
The March deal did allow the owners to seek to reopen negotiations on financial matters if games had to be played without fans. The PA has lied about this when they claim the owners are reneging on the March deal.
At the same time, while the owners can seek to renogotiate, the players aren't obligated to do so. So the owners are full of sh-- when they say the players are acting in bad faith by declining to renegotiate the terms.
Both are exercising their rights under the deal, and both are lying about other.

Yup.  The deal was that MLB was free to unilaterally schedule whatever season it could, provided the players received full 100% pro rata pay.  It was inferred between the parties that if MLB chose not to schedule a season to the fullest extent it was able, the PA would file a grievance.  To head that off, MLB was able to force the parties back to the table if scheduling a season on the partial-season-for-full-pro-rata-pay model was not "economically feasible."  So the pissing match comes down to whether or not no fans makes the terms of the March agreement "economically unfeasible."
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 16, 2020, 02:45:38 PM
This is where both sides really are lying.
The March deal did allow the owners to seek to reopen negotiations on financial matters if games had to be played without fans. The PA has lied about this when they claim the owners are reneging on the March deal.
At the same time, while the owners can seek to renogotiate, the players aren't obligated to do so. So the owners are full of sh-- when they say the players are acting in bad faith by declining to renegotiate the terms.
Both are exercising their rights under the deal, and both are lying about other.

PA lying and full of sh!t? Check.

Owners lying and full of sh!t? Check.

A pox on both of their houses.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on June 16, 2020, 03:32:13 PM
And I just view the players' lie as altogether different than the owners'.  The owners want to throw out the framework of the March deal becuase games without fans is "economically unfeasible."  But they have never and will not provide reliable revenue numbers for past years as context.  They are demanding the union negotiate without sufficient information, which ain't right if you are trying to socialize your losses.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 16, 2020, 09:19:28 PM
And I just view the players' lie as altogether different than the owners'. 

Burrow

I think (in general) you back the players and oppose the owners. When you bring a bias you’ll view each sides lies differently.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MUBurrow on June 16, 2020, 09:47:15 PM
Burrow

I think (in general) you back the players and oppose the owners. When you bring a bias you’ll view each sides lies differently.

No doubt you're right about that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on June 17, 2020, 11:24:35 AM
https://theathletic.com/1875769/2020/06/17/posnanski-mlb-owners-are-committed-to-not-spending-more-fans-will-pay-the-price/?amp#click=https://t.co/fljgfXRW3T
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 17, 2020, 01:30:45 PM
https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1273320338017968130

Reportedly approaching a deal with pro-rated pay and expanded playoffs.  Mandfred and Clark have been meeting in person.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 17, 2020, 01:40:36 PM
https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1273320338017968130

Reportedly approaching a deal with pro-rated pay and expanded playoffs.  Mandfred and Clark have been meeting in person.


It was reported somewhere that it looks like about a 70ish game season. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 17, 2020, 01:57:28 PM
https://theathletic.com/1875769/2020/06/17/posnanski-mlb-owners-are-committed-to-not-spending-more-fans-will-pay-the-price/?amp#click=https://t.co/fljgfXRW3T

Two things.

1. I read the article earlier today. It is outstanding.

2. Mild criticism of your post. I assume most posters cannot read the article you linked to. So, to you and other posters who do this, please post a short summary to start a discussion. I oppose (as do most here) copying and pasting an article behind a paywall, but a summary in your own words is fine.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 17, 2020, 02:08:58 PM

It was reported somewhere that it looks like about a 70ish game season.

Buster Olney reporting 60.  Seems like it is still a little fluid.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2020, 02:14:12 PM
 MLBPA Communications @MLBPA_News
Reports of an agreement are false.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 17, 2020, 02:20:43 PM
Offer is for 60 games in 70 days, and expanded playoffs in 20 and 21 (16 teams).
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 17, 2020, 02:31:40 PM
Reely don't give a chit 'bout any of deez pro sports. Dave sucked out all da fun outta sportz, hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2020, 02:33:42 PM
Reely don't give a chit 'bout any of deez pro sports. Dave sucked out all da fun outta sportz, hey?

Dave sucks. Hate that guy.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 17, 2020, 02:48:50 PM
Crean sucks
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: WI inferiority Complexes on June 17, 2020, 05:02:01 PM
Play fooking ball.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 17, 2020, 05:04:59 PM
Dave sucks. Hate that guy.

Dave’s not here.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on June 17, 2020, 05:49:16 PM
Two things.

1. I read the article earlier today. It is outstanding.

2. Mild criticism of your post. I assume most posters cannot read the article you linked to. So, to you and other posters who do this, please post a short summary to start a discussion. I oppose (as do most here) copying and pasting an article behind a paywall, but a summary in your own words is fine.

Yep fair. Yeah I was going to add summary and didn't. And, I was going to add that The Athletic does frequent free trials including a free 3 month trial during the pandemic for those unable to subscribe, meaning it is pretty easy to read one off articles sometimes.

Amusing line I heard today was how KC's new off season owner saw his $1billion purchase go to a new value of $1 billion $25 million.....as he somehow must have found $25 million in the seat cushions before the team even played a game under the new ownership.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Hards_Alumni on June 17, 2020, 05:53:19 PM
Offer is for 60 games in 70 days, and expanded playoffs in 20 and 21 (16 teams).

66
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on June 18, 2020, 07:04:43 AM
It is being reported that the proposed new deal would have universal DH for 2020 and 2021. And, it would most likely continue with new CBA after that.

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 18, 2020, 07:18:53 AM
It is being reported that the proposed new deal would have universal DH for 2020 and 2021. And, it would most likely continue with new CBA after that.

Finally.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: #UnleashDiener on June 18, 2020, 11:19:10 AM
It is being reported that the proposed new deal would have universal DH for 2020 and 2021. And, it would most likely continue with new CBA after that.

Booooo
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 18, 2020, 11:23:21 AM
It is being reported that the proposed new deal would have universal DH for 2020 and 2021. And, it would most likely continue with new CBA after that.


Thank God.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on June 18, 2020, 11:34:52 AM
From an alleged memo from the PA to players today:
The union letter included other details in its summary of the meeting:
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on June 18, 2020, 12:00:44 PM
It is being reported that the proposed new deal would have universal DH for 2020 and 2021. And, it would most likely continue with new CBA after that.

This is great. I liked pitchers batting for nostalgia, but once Jimmy Nelson ruined his career running the bases, I changed my mind.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 18, 2020, 12:09:07 PM
From an alleged memo from the PA to players today:
The union letter included other details in its summary of the meeting:
  • Spring training would begin no later than June 28 for position players.
  • The season would consist of 60 games, beginning July 19 or 20 and ending Sept. 27.
  • Expanded postseason in 2020 and 2021, with a minimum players’ pool of $25 million.
  • 100 percent prorated salaries (60 games would amount to about 37 percent of a 162-game season and salary)
  • Designated hitter in both leagues in 2020 and 2021.
  • Opt-out rights for high-risk individuals, as defined by the CDC.
  • MLB would direct $10 million for social justice initiatives.
  • ‘Minimum’ player commitments for broadcast elements, including the miking of players.
  • Corporate advertising on uniforms in 2020 and 2021.
  • Enhanced housing allowances for spring training and regular season.
  • Mutual waiver of potential grievances under the March Agreement.

Get it done and let's go.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 18, 2020, 12:47:18 PM
From an alleged memo from the PA to players today:
The union letter included other details in its summary of the meeting:
  • Spring training would begin no later than June 28 for position players.
  • The season would consist of 60 games, beginning July 19 or 20 and ending Sept. 27.
  • Expanded postseason in 2020 and 2021, with a minimum players’ pool of $25 million.
  • 100 percent prorated salaries (60 games would amount to about 37 percent of a 162-game season and salary)
  • Designated hitter in both leagues in 2020 and 2021.
  • Opt-out rights for high-risk individuals, as defined by the CDC.
  • MLB would direct $10 million for social justice initiatives.
  • ‘Minimum’ player commitments for broadcast elements, including the miking of players.
  • Corporate advertising on uniforms in 2020 and 2021.
  • Enhanced housing allowances for spring training and regular season.
  • Mutual waiver of potential grievances under the March Agreement.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/8e65753707213f46de814e6feb8d4290/tumblr_mmih24SiZO1rg0lgoo1_250.gifv)

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/4372db376ac7e64b3dc42ae90432d1d1/tumblr_mmih24SiZO1rg0lgoo4_500.gifv)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: shoothoops on June 18, 2020, 01:18:24 PM
I am strangely indifferent to the DH at this point. I grew up w/a National League ball preference. I pitched and played shortstop when I played so being able to a variety of things was part of it.

But I've enjoyed both leagues. I also follow college baseball pretty closely, which utilitizes the DH. I often enjoy one coach who inserts an off day starting pitcher as his lineup DH, waiting for his first turn at bat to decide whom else he'll hit there instead depending on what is going on in the game.
 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 18, 2020, 01:37:07 PM
I like the different rules for each league.  It makes the league you're in mean something unique.
But if it goes all DH, I get it.  Pitchers are expensive.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on June 19, 2020, 06:02:38 AM
I can conjure some false outrage at getting rid of the DH, I'm sure. I think the strategy is fun (not to mention the boost a team gets when a guy that shouldn't get a hit, does)

It'll make the Woodruff dinger off of Kershaw just a little more memorable
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: CreightonWarrior on June 19, 2020, 07:59:19 AM
I can conjure some false outrage at getting rid of the DH, I'm sure. I think the strategy is fun (not to mention the boost a team gets when a guy that shouldn't get a hit, does)

It'll make the Woodruff dinger off of Kershaw just a little more memorable
Thank home run is one of my favorite memories in brewers history. But I’ll be happy with DH.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 19, 2020, 01:14:07 PM
This isn't good as we try to get our sports leagues up and going ...

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3584656-covid-blows-keep-coming-phillies-close-training-facilities

The MLB's Philadelphia Phillies confirm that five players and three staff members at the club's Clearwater, FL facility have tested positive for COVID-19, with the first confirmed case coming this past Tuesday.

Twenty players (both major and minor leaguers) and twelve staff members are in the process of being tested.

The club declines to say how this news might affect plans for a 2020 season.

This report comes on top of Apple closing some stores in four states where COVID cases are back on the rise. Also, the WHO says the pandemic is accelerating after a record number of new cases yesterday.


Nothing's easy, man. This stuff is rough.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 19, 2020, 03:00:16 PM
I can conjure some false outrage at getting rid of the DH, I'm sure. I think the strategy is fun (not to mention the boost a team gets when a guy that shouldn't get a hit, does)

It'll make the Woodruff dinger off of Kershaw just a little more memorable

I welcome the DH to the National League. I understand why many don't want to see it.

But I think there is more strategy involved with the DH than with the pitcher hitting. And I like the fact that team's best pinch hitters will be available in the 9th inning. We will need to wait and see if that affects games more than in the past where many times you were stuck with a guy who wasn't much better than a pitcher when it came to hitting.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 19, 2020, 03:31:29 PM
This isn't good as we try to get our sports leagues up and going ...

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3584656-covid-blows-keep-coming-phillies-close-training-facilities

The MLB's Philadelphia Phillies confirm that five players and three staff members at the club's Clearwater, FL facility have tested positive for COVID-19, with the first confirmed case coming this past Tuesday.

Twenty players (both major and minor leaguers) and twelve staff members are in the process of being tested.

The club declines to say how this news might affect plans for a 2020 season.

This report comes on top of Apple closing some stores in four states where COVID cases are back on the rise. Also, the WHO says the pandemic is accelerating after a record number of new cases yesterday.


Nothing's easy, man. This stuff is rough.

Phillies and blue Jays have shut down their facilities today.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 19, 2020, 09:20:07 PM
Phillies and blue Jays have shut down their facilities today.

Phillies are in Clearwater. That's one of the places where beaches, bars and restaurants have been packed.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: GB Warrior on June 20, 2020, 09:22:51 AM
Yesterday was not a promising one if you want sports in 2020
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 20, 2020, 09:47:43 AM
Adios baseball and take all other pro sports with you. Ewe fookin' screwed da pooch won two many tymes, aina?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 20, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
Adios baseball and take all other pro sports with you. Ewe fookin' screwed da pooch won two many tymes, aina?


Their disputes don’t impact me much so I’ll watch regardless.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 20, 2020, 11:42:18 AM
Adios baseball and take all other pro sports with you. Ewe fookin' screwed da pooch won two many tymes, aina?

I understand your doc-speak. I just don't understand the point you are trying to make. Which pooches did they and all other pro sports screw to prevent them from playing this season?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 20, 2020, 02:40:52 PM
Its not this season, per se. Just the entire entitlement mentality of both arrogant sides
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 20, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
Its not this season, per se. Just the entire entitlement mentality of both arrogant sides

I don't believe that either the NBA or NHL deserve a "pox on both of their heads" slam, and it's too soon for the NFL.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 20, 2020, 03:07:58 PM
I'd say it's unlikely none of these sports either start or complete their seasons
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU82 on June 20, 2020, 04:11:45 PM
I'd say it's unlikely none of these sports either start or complete their seasons

You might be right. But your earlier comment (or at least your explanation of it) seemed to suggest that it was the mentality of "both sides" that caused no basketball or hockey or football, too.

No biggie. I hate arguing about this kind of semantic silliness. I know what you mean now.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 20, 2020, 05:00:27 PM
So much for the players "tell us when and where" mantra.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: cheebs09 on June 20, 2020, 05:04:19 PM
So much for the players "tell us when and where" mantra.

I think that stemmed from the clause in the March agreement where the Commissioner could unilaterally dictate the amount of games with 100% pay.

I believe at that point the thought was the owners weren’t going to negotiate in good faith, they might as well wait for them to exercise that clause. I don’t think it was a “we will be happy with anything” type of comment.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 20, 2020, 05:18:56 PM
I think that stemmed from the clause in the March agreement where the Commissioner could unilaterally dictate the amount of games with 100% pay.

I believe at that point the thought was the owners weren’t going to negotiate in good faith, they might as well wait for them to exercise that clause. I don’t think it was a “we will be happy with anything” type of comment.


I go back to my earlier comment: "Owners have determined that they will lose money this year. They also know players will demand 100% prorated salary. Thus owners will keep Season as short as possible - 48 games."


I still stand by my comment from a month or two ago that there will be no season, though. Manfred will dictate the 48 game season, but Covid will be too much to overcome as outbreaks hit camps.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 20, 2020, 07:31:25 PM
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/16/max-scherzer-bryce-harper-where-and-when/
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 20, 2020, 07:57:50 PM
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/16/max-scherzer-bryce-harper-where-and-when/


::)

i was unaware that Scherzer and Harper spoke for the entire union.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 20, 2020, 08:10:32 PM

::)

i was unaware that Scherzer and Harper spoke for the entire union.

Scherzer is one of the most vocal union reps. And one of the most influential.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 20, 2020, 08:16:45 PM
Scherzer is one of the most vocal union reps. And one of the most influential.

Oh.  So he doesn't speak for the union though.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: 4everwarriors on June 20, 2020, 08:27:02 PM
Stone cold crazy, hey?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 20, 2020, 08:43:53 PM
Oh.  So he doesn't speak for the union though.

Can you use google on your own?

How about Tony Clark?  Does he speak for the union?

https://www.cleveland.com/tribe/2020/06/mlbpas-tony-clark-its-time-to-get-back-to-work-tell-us-where-and-when.html

It was being said by players all over the place.  If you paid attention you would have know that.  Instead you tried to be clever out of ignorance.  Nice job.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 20, 2020, 09:03:07 PM
Nevermind.  You're not worth it.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 20, 2020, 09:09:18 PM
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S11E11/my1a-BJIeuAqFOBbjQHEc5Qhv1U=.gif)


And I believe I quoted Tony Clark, the head of the MLBPA, not the owners.  Does he speak for the union in your opinon?

Both sides are full of crap.  That was my point, and has been, I'm not surprised that is lost on you.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 20, 2020, 09:11:11 PM
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S11E11/my1a-BJIeuAqFOBbjQHEc5Qhv1U=.gif)




I know they shouldn't be so easily swayed by propaganda.  But...you be you...<pats buck on the head>

Now run off and play nicely.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 20, 2020, 09:12:04 PM
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S11E11/my1a-BJIeuAqFOBbjQHEc5Qhv1U=.gif)


And I believe I quoted Tony Clark, the head of the MLBPA, not the owners.  Does he speak for the union in your opinon?

Both sides are full of crap.  That was my point, and has been, I'm not surprised that is lost on you.



Sure.  ::)
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 20, 2020, 09:17:39 PM
Yeah, you're totally right.  I'm totally in with the owners.

Everyone gets it.  The owners are crapbags.  No one has once said otherwise.

Not that it'll do anything, but here is a petition to remove Rob Manfred.

https://t.co/g1O5vNRvGT

If anything, it seems like you bought the players propaganda.
I'd say you're better than that, but you're not. 
You were ignorant and wrong now you're throwing a tantrum. 

Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 20, 2020, 10:07:23 PM
Yeah, you're totally right.  I'm totally in with the owners.

If anything, it seems like you bought the players propaganda.
I'd say you're better than that, but you're not. 
You were ignorant and wrong now you're throwing a tantrum. 




Lol.  I guess when you’re caught being dumb you’ll just insult instead.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 21, 2020, 09:12:53 PM
40 players so far tested positive.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 21, 2020, 09:28:13 PM

Lol.  I guess when you%u2019re caught being dumb you%u2019ll just insult instead.


I know they shouldn't be so easily swayed by propaganda.  But...you be you...<pats buck on the head>

Now run off and play nicely.
and

Nevermind.  You're not worth it.

You don't see any hypocrisy?

You never answered, do you think Tony Clark speaks for the union?  What do you think he meant when he said:

%u201CIt unfortunately appears that further dialogue with the league would be futile. It%u2019s time to get back to work. Tell us when and where.%u201D
You seem to think the players were not just grandstanding, seems pretty gullible of you.  Especially in light of what has happened since then.  And you're lashing out and patronizing seems hollow and desperate. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 22, 2020, 07:43:36 AM
I think circumstances around this entire equation have changed due to circumstances outside of the control of either the players and owners, and also largely due to the owners actions themselves.

Sorry you can't see that.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 22, 2020, 07:46:50 AM
Our governor in Florida was talking about baseball with fans in late June.

With fans.

Makes sense to me given what's transgressed in Florida.


This seems quaint.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 22, 2020, 09:26:41 AM
I think circumstances around this entire equation have changed due to circumstances outside of the control of either the players and owners, and also largely due to the owners actions themselves.

Sorry you can't see that.

Hmmm, not answering direct questions, defending a ridiculous position, and now, is that goal post shifting? Is that the Chico trifecta?

And anyways, nothing about their not accepting the deal MLB proposed has anything to do with Covid.  If that's what you mean.  This arrangement is still contingent on safety measures and was only a framework on the financial details

It comes down to both sides wanting more money.  The players want to play more games and possibly wanting to be able to file a grievance.  For the owners they want to play as few games as possible and more playoff games.  They players didn't think the owners would go for full pro rated salaries, so they tried to make some BS moral point.  The owners gave them what they wanted, or at least the demands to which they paid lip service.  They got called on it and immediately back tracked. 

Both sides are being greedy and trying to not only win this particular deal, but also to give themselves better footing for the next CBA. 
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on June 22, 2020, 09:40:34 AM
Hmmm, not answering direct questions, defending a ridiculous position, and now, is that goal post shifting? Is that the Chico trifecta?

And anyways, nothing about their not accepting the deal MLB proposed has anything to do with Covid.  If that's what you mean.  This arrangement is still contingent on safety measures and was only a framework on the financial details

It comes down to both sides wanting more money.  The players want to play more games and possibly wanting to be able to file a grievance.  For the owners they want to play as few games as possible and more playoff games.  They players didn't think the owners would go for full pro rated salaries, so they tried to make some BS moral point.  The owners gave them what they wanted, or at least the demands to which they paid lip service.  They got called on it and immediately back tracked. 

Both sides are being greedy and trying to not only win this particular deal, but also to give themselves better footing for the next CBA. 



I haven't shifted the goalposts one bit.  You can't see how the circumstances have changed.  I can't make you see what you don't want to see.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 22, 2020, 10:15:40 AM

I haven't shifted the goalposts one bit.  You can't see how the circumstances have changed.  I can't make you see what you don't want to see.

Ok.  Even though this framework is for financial and game details, and isn't meant to address the concerns regarding covid.  In fact, they would probably need to come to an agreement on the details of the season before they could properly address protocols for Covid. 

And the players are clamoring for more games.  Hardly seems like covid is their primary concern here for this deal.  They aren't saying pump the brakes until we get this figured out.  They are saying we want more games. 

Not sure how the current covid spikes fit into that argument.



Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 22, 2020, 10:36:01 AM
63 Games

12 each intra-Division
15 against Division in opposite league
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: BrewCity83 on June 22, 2020, 11:08:32 AM
63 Games

12 each intra-Division
15 against Division in opposite league

#Donedeal?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 22, 2020, 11:08:50 AM
Good to see that Sultan and Chuckler have continued their argument into another day.

Fascinating stuff, children.  :-\
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: buckchuckler on June 22, 2020, 11:20:05 AM
Good to see that Sultan and Chuckler have continued their argument into another day.

Fascinating stuff, children.  :-\

You're right.  Sorry.  I'm done.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: Jockey on June 22, 2020, 12:35:00 PM
You're right.  Sorry.  I'm done.

No prob. Many of us here, myself included, have gone down the argument rabbit hole.
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: muwarrior69 on June 24, 2020, 07:22:11 AM
Does this season count in the record books?
Title: Re: MLB Hot Stove 2019-20
Post by: DegenerateDish on June 24, 2020, 10:09:10 AM
Part of me is very excited to see the randomness of a 60 game season. If a team (say the Marlins) gets on a run early and goes 7-3 in their first ten games, they are in the hunt. Going 60 games, a team like the Cubs should go to a 4 man rotation. Over 60 games, a rotation of Darvish, Lester, Hendricks, Quintana could handle that workload. Why bother giving Chatwood potentially 12 starts?

I think the AL Central/NL Central teams near the top have an advantage towards making the playoffs. If you look at Pecota projections, th